Sitting of 17 November 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
NEW WRIT
For Gateshead, West, in the room of John Thomas Hall, esquire, deceased.— [Mr. Bowden.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  EDINBURGH CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION
  Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Edinburgh Corporation, presented by Mr. J. Stuart; read the First time; and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Friday 25th November and to be printed. [Bill 71.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Entertainments Duty (Theatre)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the entertainments tax is causing damage to the live theatre, increasing unemployment in various aspects of that industry and interfering prejudicially with the culture of which the live theatre is an exponent; and if, therefore, he will now take steps to abolish or reduce that tax on the live theatre.
    Dr. Strossasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the financial help received by the theatrical companies which are exempt from entertainments tax, and thus receive the whole of the tax equivalent; and whether he will now extend this exemption to the live theatre as a whole.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry Brooke): My right hon. Friend has received representations from the interests concerned with the live theatre. Theatrical companies whose productions satisfy the appropriate statutory conditions are already exempted from Entertainments Duty, and receive considerable assistance thereby. For the reasons given in his recent Budget speech, however, he regrets that he cannot introduce any further remission of Entertainments Duty at present.
    Mr. Hughes: Does not the Chancellor of the Exchequer realise that by that refusal he is sentencing thousands of artists to unemployment and inflicting capital punishment upon a very vital aspect of British culture, and reaping no comparable reward? Will he reconsider it?
    Mr. Brooke: The returns available to me do not show any falling off in employment in recent years. My right hon. Friend feels strongly that this would not be an appropriate moment for a remission of taxation in the direction of entertainments, however deserving.
    Mr. Dairies: Does the hon. Gentleman think it fair for this House not to pay Entertainments Duty after last night's show, especially as the Government succeeded in losing their own Bill?
    Mr. G. R. Strauss: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm what I think he stated just now, that practically all the repertory companies in the country benefit from the present situation?
    Mr. Brooke: Yes, Sir, that is certainly so. Much the greater part of the tax is paid by variety and music hall shows.

    Purchase Tax (Administration Costs)
    Mr. Wadeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the estimated total expenditure during the latest period of 12 months for which information is available incurred by the Government in the administration and collection of Purchase Tax.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Purchase Tax work is largely done by the staff of the Customs and Excise Department in conjunction with their other responsibilities for collecting the Customs and Excise revenue.

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    Separate figures for the total expenditure incurred in administering and collecting Purchase Tax are, therefore, not available.
    Mr. Wade: While I regret that the figures are not available, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he agrees that if the expenditure referred to in the Question were added to the expenditure incurrd by manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers in calculating and collecting the tax, the total would amount to a very considerable sum?
    Mr. Brooke: The Customs and Excise revenue, of course, amounts to a very considerable sum. The average cost of collecting the revenue is about three-quarters of 1 per cent. of the revenue collected.

    Food (Consumption and Expenditure)
    Mr. Fernyhoughasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the increase in consumers' expenditure on food between October, 1951, and the latest available date; and how much of the increased expenditure, as compared with 1951 prices, was due to an increase in the volume of consumption and how much to the increase in prices.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): Estimates of consumers' expenditure on food are available only for quarterly periods, and because of seasonal variations comparisons can properly be made only for comparable quarters. Between the second quarter of 1951 and the second quarter of 1955, the latest for which figures are available, consumers' expenditure on food is estimated to have increased from £739 million to £1,032 million, or by 40 per cent. The increase in volume of consumption was about 9 per cent., while prices rose about 28 per cent.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Does the Economic Secretary realise that his answer contains the Government's problem in relation to the trade unions, and that this is the justification for the wage increases which are now being pursued by the trade unions? Does he not think he ought to do something to stabilise prices?
    Sir E. Boyle: I really think that an increase in the volume of consumption of food by 9 per cent. is not as bad as all that.
    Mr. H. Wilson: As there is now no Finance Bill on the Order Paper, will the hon. Gentleman suggest to his right hon. Friend that he consider the whole question all over again and introduce a new Finance Bill which will deal with the problem revealed by the answer to this Question in relation to prices, instead of aggravating the price rise as proposed in the Finance Bill which we were so lately discussing?
    Sir E. Boyle: That is another question.

    Post-War Credits
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give an estimate of the cost to the Treasury of restoring the purchasing power of post-war credits to their 1943 level.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The total of post-war credits now outstanding is estimated at about £529 million. This amount would have to be increased by about £320 million to provide the same amount of purchasing power at 1943 prices. This is based on the Consumer Price Index brought up to date by the Interim Index of Retail Prices.
    Mr. Lewis: Can the Minister say how many more months it will take for the additional rise in the cost of living to wipe out completely the relative purchasing power of this money at the rate we are going?
    Mr. Brooke: When my right hon. Friend's Budget is enacted it will have very great influence in stabilising the cost of living.
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of post-war credits remaining to be repaid for each of the years since the inception of the scheme; and the relative purchasing power of the total amounts for each year, taking the £ as being worth 20s. in the year when the scheme was introduced.
    Mr. H. Brooke: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Lewis: Has there been any improvement in the position over the last four years during any period since the Government have been in office, a Government pledged to reduce the cost of

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    living and to make the £ worth something? Can the right hon. Gentleman show any improvement?
    Mr. Brooke: I do not quite know what the hon. Member means by "improvement." He has asked for figures for postwar credit years which ran from 1941 to 1946.
    Following is the reply:
    The table below shows the estimated amounts of Post-War Credit still outstanding at mid-November, 1955, and the approximate purchasing power of these amounts now compared with 1941.

    Year in which Post-War Credit created

    Amount still outstanding at mid-November, 1955

    Equivalent Purchasing Power at 1941 prices

    £ million

    £ million

    1941–42

    …

    97

    53

    1942–43

    …

    120

    66

    1943–44

    …

    24

    13

    1944–45

    …

    146

    80

    1945–46

    …

    142

    78

    The final column is based on the Consumer Price Index brought up to date by the Interim Index of Retail Prices.

    Public Services (Retirement Pensions)
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what categories, and approximately how many people, are covered by the Government's present reexamination of the position of persons living on fixed incomes; and when he hopes to be able to make a statement on the subject.
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the estimated cost, group by group, to bring pensioners covered by the Pensions Increases Acts up to the operative level at 1st January, 1955.
    Mr. H. Brooke: As the reply is lengthy and contains a good many figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I hope to be able to make a statement on the whole subject later this afternoon in answer to another Question.
    Captain Pilkington: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that these people are the hardest hit by the rise in the cost of living and that it was 29 per cent. for 1947–51 and has been 16 per cent. since?
    Mr. Brooke: I suggest that my hon. gallant Friend should await the statement I hope to be able to make.
    Following is the reply:
    Only a very rough answer can be given. The structure, pay scales and pension arrangements in the public services have changed greatly in the past two or three decades. Many ranks and grades have disappeared while other new ones have been created. Again, some public services (e.g., local government, etc.) have had universal pension systems for a comparatively short period. For these reasons the figures for individual services are subject to a wider margin of error than the total. Subject to these qualifications, a very approximate answer is as follows:—

    Category

    Number of Pensioners

    Estimated cost additional to existing Pensions Increase of giving current rates

    £

    Armed Forces

    180,000

    4½—5½*

    Civil Service

    128,000

    5–7

    Teachers

    86,000†

    3½—5½

    Police

    60,000

    3–4

    Fire Services

    5,000

    (say) 1/4

    National Health Service

    15,000

    (say) ¼

    Local Authority

    120,000

    3–4

    Total

    594,000

    19½—26½

    NOTES: Widows' and Dependants' pensions are included throughout.
    *The figure for the Armed Forces is the cost of giving the 1950 Code pensions to pensioners who retired under earlier codes, without taking into account the fact that some pensioners retired under previous codes would not qualify for a 1950 code pension.
    †Including 10,000 Scottish Teacher pensioners.
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has yet decided to introduce a new Pensions Increases Bill.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The Government have decided that further measures to assist retired members of the public services are justified and are preparing detailed proposals to put before Parliament in the New Year.
    Dame Irene Ward: While appreciating the spirit of my right hon. Friend's reply, which will give very great satisfaction, may I ask him whether he is open to receive representations and recommendations and whether it is his intention during the review to consider wiping out

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    anomalies? In fact, is he to have a comprehensive scheme based on the needs of the people of today?
    Mr. Brooke: I am certainly ready to receive suggestions and representations. This is an extraordinarily complicated matter, and it will not be until next year that the Government will be able to lay their detailed proposals.
    Mr. Warbey: Is the Financial Secretary aware that one of the best ways in which the Government could help the people in these groups is by leaving the Finance Bill where it now is?

    Processed Fur Skins (Tax)
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that Mr. J. Le Gassicke, The Watermill, Binbrook, Lincoln, while driving at night, accidentally knocked down and killed a fox; that he had the skin cured and dressed for 17s. 6d.; that the skin was valued at 15s. and that he is now asked to pay a 50 per cent. Purchase Tax; and, in view of the fact that he is being asked to pay 7s. 6d. on a purchase he never made, if he will remit the tax.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Under the Finance Act, 1946, any person who by way of business processes raw fur skins becomes liable for tax on the wholesale value of the resulting goods. That is the reason why tax is payable by the processor in this case.
    Mr. de Freitas: Is this not really absurd, giving pleasure to no one and doing no one any good, except encouraging foxes to run over the roads at night?
    Mr. Brooke: It was the Government which the hon. Member supported that found it necessary in 1946 to place a tax on the processing of fur skins because otherwise there was considerable evasion of the tax.
    Mr. Strachey: Do not the Financial Secretary and the Chancellor feel great sympathy with foxes and all other hunted creatures?

    Capital Issues Committee (Priorities)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what new instructions he has sent in the last two or three months to the Capital Issues Committee.
    Sir E. Boyle: None, Sir. But in the course of his Budget statement on 26th October my right hon. Friend informed the House that the Capital Issues Committee took note of his statement on 25th July on the need to check investment and has applied it in its scrutiny of applications. He added "I take this opportunity to underline with fresh emphasis what I then said, and to make it clear that there can be no question for the time being of the authorities relaxing their critical attitude."
    Mr. Grimond: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that as long as this Committee remains in being it should receive some definite directive from the Chancellor as to its part in the credit squeeze? Will he also say whether when local authority applications for loans are put on to the market their issues will have to go through the Capital Issues Committee?
    Sir E. Boyle: There has been no fresh C.I.C. directive, because it would not have been appropriate to issue a fresh statement on investment priorities especially for the guidance of the C.I.C. Therefore, it was appropriate that the C.I.C. should be told in general terms to be more restrictive at the same time as the banks were told in general terms to reduce the level of advances.
    Mr. Gaitskell: What priorities is the Capital Issues Committee to observe in this matter? Are there previous directives laying down which applications are to be given priority and which are to be put at the end of the queue?
    Sir E. Boyle: There was some doubt as to how far the C.I.C. could go without asking for specific guidance, but I assure the right hon. Gentleman that in practice it manages to do its work without specific guidance by using its judgment on the merits of individual applications.
    Mr. Gaitskell: How does it discriminate between applications, and if it does not, how does it cut down the amount of borrowing?
    Sir E. Boyle: That is for the C.I.C. to say, but it has managed in practice to do its work by using its judgment in individual cases.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Since my hon. Friend has referred to a statement extant as to the investment priorities, would

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    he look into the possibility of publishing a White Paper, at about the same time as the Economic Survey, on such investment priorities, including the operations of the Capital Issues Committee, so that the House can have some knowledge of what the priorities are and possibly debate the matter?
    Sir E. Boyle: That raises wider issues, but I remind my noble Friend of what my right hon. Friend said in his statement on 25th July—that this policy was being left to the banks to pursue themselves.
    Mr. Strachey: Does not the hon. Gentleman's answer mean that the Government have now abdicated any decision on what part of the investment programme is to go on and what is to be delegated into the hands of the Capital Issues Committee to which they give no guidance but, as the hon. Gentleman said, leave the matter entirely to the Committee's discretion?
    Sir E. Boyle: I have said that the Committee has managed to do its work by using its judgment, and that, we believe, is much the more satisfactory solution.
    Mr. Grimond: Have the local authorities to go through the Capital Issues Committee?
    Sir E. Boyle: That is another question, but I have taken note of what the hon. Member has said.

    Bank Loans
    Mr. Grimondasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what discussions he has had with the banks, and what advice he has issued to them, on the variation of their cash ratios as part of the credit squeeze.
    Sir E. Boyle: The answer to both parts of the Question is "None, Sir."
    Mr. Grimond: Has the Minister looked into the possibility of varying the liquidity ratio as part of the Government's financial measures?
    Sir E. Boyle: That is another question. I have been asked what discussions my right hon. Friend has had with the banks, and the answer to that is as I gave it.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is the Economic Secretary aware that the credit squeeze is
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    working in a most extraordinary manner, and in cases of which I have given details to the House, valuable export business is being endangered because the banks have felt that they were unable to increase financial facilities for exports? Is he aware that even when the businessmen concerned have consulted his Department and the Board of Trade, they have been told that the Chancellor has not laid down any system of priorities in favour of export as against essential home business and that it is all left to the banks?
    Sir E. Boyle: That question raises much wider issues than the Question on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the well-known fact that small firms are being harshly treated by the credit squeeze, will the hon. Gentleman give specific instructions to the banks to ask them not to drive small firms out of business?
    Sir E. Boyle: That raises another question. We cannot debate the credit squeeze in answer to this Question.

    Budget (Representations)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total number of letters and protests he has received against his recent Budget; and whether he will give a summarised list of these persons and organisations, together with similar details of those that have sent messages supporting his proposals.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Up to yesterday my right hon. Friend has received 721 communications on his Budget, of which 110 were messages of support and 611 were messages of criticism against one part of it or another. I regret that it would be impossible to summarise either of these lists, but it is clear than many of the protests were organised from a common source.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the Minister aware that hon. Members on both sides of the House have dozens more protests which, if they are good Members, they will send to him? Is he aware that he can expect quite a number from this side of the House? Among the hundred or so letters which the right hon. Gentleman says support the Budget, how many are from trade unions? How many representative working-class organisations have sent messages of congratulation?
    Mr. Brooke: I regret that I cannot answer the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. As to the first part, I should have thought that the hon. Member was sufficiently experienced in politics not to judge the merits of political questions entirely by the number of communications he receives.

    Old-Age Pensioners (Tobacco Tokens)
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now consider giving non-smoking old-age pensioners a similar concession to those who smoke.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply I gave on 10th November to the hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter).
    Captain Pilkington: I know that reply, but can my right hon. Friend say how much this concession would cost? Does he realise that there is a very real sense of grievance here and that non-smokers feel that compared with smokers they are being penalised?
    Mr. Brooke: Roughly speaking, it would cost £14 or £15 million.

    Small Income Groups
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now prepared to receive proposals for helping the small fixed income groups and the family man of limited means who did not benefit in the last cut in the standard rate of Income Tax.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Yes. If my hon. Friend will send me her proposals, I will gladly study them.
    Dame Irene Ward: On a point of order. Owing to the satisfactory nature of the reply, may I beg to give notice that I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment? Would that be in order?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady is entitled to give notice of her intention to raise any point on the Adjournment, although I must say that it is unusual to preface such a notice with the word she has used.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is it not a good thing sometimes to have a little change in procedure?
    Mr. Speaker: I may say that I have no great objection to what the hon. Lady proposes. I like to see an occasional spark of unanimity in the House.

    Dividends (Revenue Losses)
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the estimated loss to the revenue of dividend stripping operations for the financial year 1954–55, and for the first six months of the current financial year, respectively.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Full statistics are not available. From information which has become available recently, it appears that the loss from such transactions in 1954–55 was rather over £4 million. I have no information yet as to the first six months of the current year.
    Mr. Wilson: Since the House has been very puzzled by the right hon. Gentleman's reference to a loss of a little over six figures, which most hon. Gentlemen took to be a reference to some hundreds of thousands of pounds, is it not clear that this racket is on a much bigger scale than the right hon. Gentleman indicated to the House on Second Reading of the Finance Bill?
    Mr. Brooke: The phrase I used was "in excess of six figures." I took that to mean seven figures, but I am sorry if I have misled the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Wilson: Since this was the point of the Question and the phrase "little more than six" can mean seven, eight, nine or ten, will the right hon. Gentleman now assure the House that his best estimate is that it is running into some millions of pounds, and would he say whether it is growing at the present time?
    Mr. Brooke: I never said anything about "little more than six." I have given the right hon. Gentleman the amount as far as we can ascertain it for 1954–55, and I said on Second Reading of the Bill that when this was showing signs of expanding so rapidly it was essential to take action in the autumn Finance Bill.
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent his Department's estimates of the loss to the revenue through dividend stripping include the estimated avoidance of

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    Surtax by the vendors in addition to the tax reclaims by the purchasers of the shares in question.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The estimates in question relate only to tax on the technical losses sustained by the dealing concerns that bought the shares for dividend stripping.
    Mr. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House is becoming more confused about this; that we are now to understand that when he says six he means seven, and that when he makes an estimate of a loss he is referring only to the smaller item in the loss, namely, the reclaim of Income Tax. Is he not aware that if he had included in his calculations the loss on Surtax, the total figures which he has just quoted of £4 million would probably—in very general terms—take him into eight figures, which might be a loss to the Revenue of £10 million, £12 million or £15 million? Would he not agree with that sort of estimate?
    Mr. Brooke: I am trying to be as frank with the House as I can. Surtax loss is a hypothetical and not an actual loss. It is quite impossible to tell what rate of Surtax might have been payable by the people concerned.
    Mr. Wilson: Could the right hon. Gentleman not at least have made some estimate about Surtax, for example, at 15s. in the £ for Income Tax and Surtax together? Does he not agree that this rather myopic approach to the calculation is typical of the Government's approach in general, in that they are attacking this problem only from the point of view of the buyer of the shares and not from the point of view of the vendor who is probably involved in more money?
    Mr. Brooke: I cannot accept the word "myopic." I have been absolutely candid with the House and all these things will be debatable.
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer at what figure he estimates the loss to the Revenue of those forms of bond-washing which are not prohibited by Section 17 of the Finance Act, 1937, as consolidated by the Income Tax Act, 1952.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I regret that there is no basis on which to make such an estimate.

    British Petroleum Company (Government Directors)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will define the duties of the Government directors on the Board of the British Petroleum Company in relation to Her Majesty's Government and the company, respectively.
    Mr. Collinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the names of the two Government-appointed directors of British Petroleum Limited; what salary they receive from Her Majesty's Government: when they were appointed; what are the conditions of appointment; and what instructions were given to them on appointment.
    Sir E. Boyle: Mr. F. E. Harmer and Sir Gordon Munro are the present Government directors. They receive no remuneration from public funds, but keep the fees received by them as directors of the company and its subsidiary companies. Mr. Harmer was appointed on 8th May. 1953, and Sir Gordon Munro on 26th April, 1954. In each case the appointment was for four years in the first instance. They have a general obligation to report on all matters, financial or general, which they consider should be referred to, or brought to the notice of Her Majesty's Government, and the only instruction given to them on appointment was with regard to the channel through which such reports should be submitted. In addition, they carry out the normal duties of company directors in exactly the same way as the other directors of the company.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In view of the fact that these gentlemen say that the Government take no active part or interest in the commercial management of the British Petroleum Company, and in view of the fact that their duties are based upon the very out-of-date assessment which was defined in 1914, is it not rather excessive that each of these gentlemen should draw fees to the amount of £3,250 a year from this company in view of the rather negligible duties they are called upon to perform vis-à-vis Her Majesty's Government?
    Sir E. Boyle: The hon. and gallant Member is really under a misapprehension in thinking that Government directorships are sinecures. That is not true. Government directors play their part in all matters affecting the company's affairs in exactly the same way as other directors.
    Mr. Gaitskell: What report did they submit on the question of the very large increase in the dividend paid by the British Petroleum Company a day after the Budget in complete contradiction to the Chancellor's own request?
    Sir E. Boyle: In answer to that question, I can only refer the right hon. Member to the reply given by my predecessor, now the Minister of State, to the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) on 27th November, 1952, when he said:
    "I regret that I cannot disclose information about communications which pass between Her Majesty's Government and their representatives."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 27th November, 1952; Vol. 508, c. 610.]
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment, or perhaps on the Finance Bill.

    Flood Distress Fund
    Commander Maitlandasked the Secretary to the Treasury how the Government account now stands in relation to the Flood Distress Fund; and what conditions were attached to Her Majesty's Government's contribution with regard to the final disposal of the fund.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Her Majesty's Government have so far contributed £2 million to the Lord Mayor's Flood and Tempest Distress Fund. No conditions were attached. The fund itself can only make disbursements for the purposes for which it was set up.
    Commander Maitland: Can my right hon. Friend inform the House how it is proposed now to continue to administer the fund, observing that there are outstanding appeals to it at present and may be in the future?
    Mr. Brooke: I think that is a matter for the authorities of the fund and not for the Government.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  Mr. Parkin: On a point of order. May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on a matter concerned with Question No. 20? In view of the confusion throughout the business world, owing to the fact that there is no Finance Bill on the Order Paper, would it be in order for me to ask you whether you would kindly permit the Treasury Bench to answer Question No. 20, although it has not been called, to give the Treasury an opportunity to make a statement as to whether any Purchase Tax is payable today?
  Mr. Speaker: That would not be in order. I called the Question but the hon. Member in whose name it stands was not present. No doubt the House will get a written reply.

  BRITISH MUSEUM (NEWSPAPER ROOM)
  Mr. Hydeasked the Secretary to the Treasury why the British Museum Newspaper Room in Colindale is open to the public for two hours less daily than the main Reading Room in Bloomsbury; and if he will in future approximate the daily hours of opening throughout the Museum.
  Mr. H. Brooke: The times of opening of the various departments of the Museum are matters for the Trustees, but I understand that they could only open the Newspaper Room for a longer period each day at the expense of work on sorting, classification and cataloguing which is still, mainly as a result of war damage, seriously in arrear.
  Mr. Hyde: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, due to the shorter hours of opening of the newspaper rooms, the service of provincial newspapers is very much restricted, and that of foreign newspapers is completely denied to the public? In view of the fact that the Newspaper Room at the British Museum is the only place where many of these foreign journals can be found, will he take immediate steps to restore these amenities to the public use?
  Mr. Brooke: We allowed the Museum twenty-six additional staff in 1954–5 and a further eighteen this year. It is for the Trustees of the Museum to decide how best they can use that extra assistance.
  Mr. Ede: Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Trustees to settle, on a reasonably long-term basis, the staff required to deal with this and kindred parts of their premises?
  Mr. Brooke: That is a wider question. Of course, staffing questions are examined once a year at least at Estimates time.
  Mr. Ede: But will the right hon. Gentleman take a little personal interest in the matter and have a personal consultation with the Trustees?
  Mr. Brooke: Since I assumed my present office I think that I have not a bad record in taking a personal interest in these national institutions and galleries.
  Mr. M. Stewart: Would the Financial Secretary agree that it is a very serious thing for historians and other scholars that access to foreign newspapers in Colindale should be denied for apparently an indefinite period, and will he look into this?
  Mr. Brooke: I have given the House the information. It is that at the present time there are other jobs which appear to be more seriously in need of staff than the one mentioned in the Question.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Pigs and Bacon (Report)
    Mr. Wadeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has yet received a Report from the Reorganisation Commission for Pigs and Bacon.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Heathcoat Amory): No, Sir. I am informed that the Commission is at present engaged in hearing evidence from the many organisations concerned with pig and bacon marketing.
    Mr. Wade: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when housewives complain, as they do, about the high cost of bacon, it is difficult to satisfy them with the statement that they must await the report of the Reorganisation Commission for Pigs and Bacon? Would the Minister agree that pigs have not proved very amenable to Government planning, and does he consider this the fault of the pigs or the planners?
    Mr. Amory: I think that probably the fault is the principle of Government planning. The Commission started hearing evidence only in September; this is a most important matter, and I feel that I can leave it with confidence to the chairman to arrange his programme.
    Mr. Willey: Can the Minister say for how much longer he will allow the appalling bacon muddle to continue?
    Mr. Amory: It would be quite inappropriate for me to deal with that question in answering the Question on the Order Paper.

    Colouring Substances
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement giving details of the progress made in respect of implementing recommendations made by the Preservatives Sub-Committee of the Food Standards Committee to ban certain colouring substances in food.
    Mr. Amory: The Sub-Committee has now considered the comments received on its recommendations and prepared a supplementary report. This has been adopted by the Food Standards Committee, and I am arranging for it to be published.

    Nitrogen Trichloride
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on what date the ban on the use of agene in food becomes operative; and what precautions will be taken to ensure that nitrogen trichloride is not used in some other form in bread making.
    Mr. Amory: The arrangements made by the flour millers and flour importers provide for nitrogen trichloride in any form to cease to be used in flour by the end of this year.

    Coastal Flooding (Report)
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he proposes to take to implement the recommendations of the Waverley Committee on Coastal Flooding in so far as they affect his Department.
    Mr. Amory: The two recommendations still outstanding are financial, and further consideration of them must wait

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    until it can be seen how the finances of river boards will be affected by rating revaluation. As to the other recommendations of the Committee, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. J. E. B. Hill) on 23rd June.
    Commander Maitland: In giving further consideration to the report, will the right hon. Gentleman pay particular attention to the importance of making maintenance grants to the river boards for this work? Does he realise that had our sea defences been properly maintained much loss of life might have been prevented as well as a great deal of damage?
    Mr. Amory: I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend in the importance which he attaches to making sure that damage does not occur again. I am confident that the arrangements which have been made, the reconstruction which has been carried out, and the future plans of the river boards will provide for that.
    Mr. Edward Evans: Will the Minister give some indication of those areas in the country which are today particularly vulnerable to the same kind of flooding which occurred in the great catastrophe of 1953?
    Mr. Amory: I think that the sea defences the whole way along the East Coast are very much stronger now than at that time, but if the hon. Gentleman has any particular area in mind and will put down a Question, I shall be glad to give him any information that I can.

    Horticultural Industry (Fuel- Saving Equipment)
    Mr. G. Williamsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the fact that the horticultural industry does not receive support prices, he will consider a grant towards the cost of installing fuel-saving equipment.
    Mr. Amory: This is one among the suggestions for assisting the horticultural industry which have been submitted to me by the National Farmers' Union and which are under consideration.
    Mr. Williams: While welcoming his answer, may I express the hope that the Minister will bear in mind that in the horticultural industry costs have increased
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    but prices have not risen; that he could help the industry very materially in this way and also save fuel, and that I hope he will be able to do something about it?
    Mr. Amory: We are anxious to save fuel. I would remind my hon. Friend that there are loan facilities now available to horticulturists with glasshouses who wish to convert to oil fuel.

    East Anglia Herring Fisheries
    Sir R. Boothbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that the failure of the autumn herring fishing at Yarmouth and Lowestoft has been attributed by research officers of his Department to the intensive trawling in recent years of immature herring by continental fleets operating off the Danish coast and in the spawning grounds of the English Channel; and whether he will approach the Governments of the continental countries directly concerned with a view to holding an international conference to consider what action can be taken to prevent the destruction of the sources of supply of this important industry.
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the complete failure of the East Anglian herring fishing and of the grave losses incurred by owners, merchants and fishermen in consequence; whether he is aware that this failure is related to the modern method of trawling for herring practised by continental fishers whereby immature fish are caught before spawning for fish meal; and whether he will take steps to secure international agreement to prohibit this practice.
    Mr. Amory: I am greatly concerned at the poor herring catches this East Anglian season. The causes are not yet fully undestood and are being studied by my fisheries research staff. While it is possible that the increase in trawling, especially for immature herring, may have some bearing, the weight of scientific opinion is that this is far from proved to have had a major effect on the East Anglian fishery this season.
    The International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, which is the forum of fisheries science of the Western and Northern European countries, is studying the matter. The International

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    Fisheries Convention of 1946 does not embrace herring, but discussions are in progress with the other member countries with a view to concluding a wider convention.
    Sir R. Boothby: If the right hon. Gentleman gets further information from his research officers leading to the conclusion that this trawling has a bearing on the present failure of the autumn fishing, will he get into direct touch with the Governments concerned through the usual diplomatic channels?
    Mr. Amory: Yes, Sir, I will most certainly do that. I agree that it is a most disastrous season for herrings. I went out myself for two days in a fishery protection vessel and we patrolled the North Sea. I have never caught fewer fish.
    Mr. Evans: Is the Minister aware that the present-day members of families of fishermen who have fished these waters for generations are firmly convinced that this over-fishing by trawling is one of the major factors? Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the letter in The Times today from the town clerk of Whitby saying that at Whitby they are having a more successful season than last year? Will the Minister prosecute to the fullest extent research into this very difficult problem which is causing great anxiety and loss in my constituency—to the extent of half-a-million pounds on catches last year?
    Mr. Amory: I could not agree more with the lion. Member as to the seriousness of the situation. I assure him that we will give full weight to the possibility that over-trawling—the catching of immature fish—may be one of the explanations.

    Danish Butter and Bacon
    Mr. Fernyhoughasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the amount of profit made by Her Majesty's Government on the sale to first-hand distributors of Danish butter and Danish bacon for the year ended 30th September, 1955.
    Mr. F. Willeyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what profit or loss his Department has made during the present financial year on the sale of bacon.
    Mr. Amory: It is not the practice to disclose trading results relating to individual contracts or particulars of my Department's current trading position.
    Mr. Fernyhough: What has the Minister got to hide in this matter? The Government have now finished bulk buying. Is it not a fact that the profits are so big that the Government are ashamed to reveal them? Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that during June, July, August and September the Government were making a profit of 9d. on every 1b. of Danish butter and 1s. on every 1b. of bacon? Does he not think it scandalous, with the cost of living as high as it is, that the Government do not use bulk buying in order to keep prices lower?
    Mr. Amory: I am certain that anyone with experience in commerce would agree that it would be quite disastrous to adopt the suggestion which the hon. Member has made. The Government have not got out of trading in bacon. On the question of profits and losses, I would remind the hon. Member that the Labour Government carried out much more Government trading when they were in power than we do today, and if he consults some of his colleagues upon the matter they will tell him how very often it happens that the profits on one transaction are cancelled out by the losses on another.
    Mr. T. Williams: Was it not the case that during the period of office of the Labour Government, if they did make any profit on bulk buying, they provided at least £300 million or £400 million in consumer subsidies?
    Mr. Amory: I seem to remember that in those days the losses in trading greatly exceeded the profits.
    Mr. Willey: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it was thoroughly reprehensible to reduce the price of bacon immediately before the Election and to increase it immediately after the Election and that it is also reprehensible to be making a profit upon bacon now, when retail prices are far too high?
    Mr. Amory: Very sound commercial practice was followed. When demand decreases one lowers one's price to meet

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    it, and when demand increases again, beyond the supplies available, one raises the price in order to equalise the position.
    Mr. H. Morrison: Does the right hon. Gentleman really mean that it was a sound commercial practice—or does he mean that it was a sound political practice—to play about with prices before and after the Election in order to suit the electoral convenience of the Government in this matter?
    Mr. Amory: I used exactly the words I meant to use.
    Mr. Willey: In view of the unsatisfactory reply of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter at an early opportunity on the Adjournment.

    Flour
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what advice he takes from independent experts in deciding the rate of extraction required in flour milling for National bread; what proportion of the total quantity of the flour produced in the United Kingdom comes into this category; and how much imported flour is used in the National loaf.
    Mr. Amory: An independent and authoritative review is being made of the scientific and medical evidence now available on the composition and nutritive value of flour of varying extraction rates. I informed the House on 5th May last of the membership and terms of reference of the panel making the review. About 71 per cent. of the total flour milled in the United Kingdom in the year ended 30th June, 1955, was National flour. It is not possible to say how much imported flour was used in National bread.
    Mr. Hurd: Can my right hon. Friend state when he hopes to receive and publish the report of this panel?
    Mr. Amory: I hope to receive it by about the end of this year.

    Food and Agriculture Organisation (Minister's Speech)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the proposals he made last week in Rome to the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United
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    Nations for reviewing this organisation's expenditure so as to concentrate efforts on field work of direct benefit to the countries where nutritional standards are low.
    Mr. Amory: Her Majesty's Government support the F.A.O. and are anxious to continue to participate fully in the good work it is doing. In my speech at the recent conference in Rome I paid a tribute to the organisation's achievements and promised our continuing support. I stressed the desirability of concentrating its resources on practical work in the field of direct benefit to countries where productivity and nutritional standards are low. I agreed as to the necessity for an increase in the budget for the next two years, but doubted the necessity for an increase as large as the draft budget suggested.
    I have sent my hon. Friend copies of my statement and have had copies placed in the Library of the House.
    Mr. Hurd: Can my right hon. Friend state what has been the outcome of the discussions about the budget and the amounts of money that should be devoted respectively to the headquarters organisation of F.A.O. and to work in the field? Has any decision been reached?
    Mr. Amory: No. Discussions on the matter of the budget are now proceeding in Rome. I should like to say that in every year that I know of the F.A.O. budget which was actually agreed to has not come up to the level of the budget first proposed. However good the work that is being done, I think that it is a good plan to scrutinise existing expenditure carefully before proceeding to new expenditure.
    Mr. Gooch: Is it not a fact that the Minister went to Rome, not to ask for a review of the organisation's expenditure, but to deliver an ultimatum to the Director-General that he must reduce expenditure?
    Mr. Amory: No. I want to make it quite clear that, both in my speech and generally in the discussions, I said that we agreed as to the desirability of some increase in the total budget, but we were anxious to see that both the existing expenditure and the additional expenditure were concentrated as far as possible upon practical activities.

    Faraday House, Hampton (Use)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why the Commissioners of Crown Lands have allowed Faraday House, Hampton, Middlesex, to remain vacant for many years; and whether he will arrange that the Commissioners should find accommodation there for Mr. J. A. Coe, a servant of the Crown.
    Mr. Amory: Faraday House is inconvenient for modern use and has been turned down by the many prospective tenants who have viewed it. Plans for converting it are at an advanced stage, but would be frustrated if accommodation in the house were now provided for Mr. Coe.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Twickenham Borough Council made this 20-roomed house available to the Commissioners of Crown Lands for housing purposes about six years ago, and that the Council is rather indignant that it has not yet been used for housing purposes? Is he further aware that it considers that the Commissioners should give room in this House to Mr. Coe, whose wife has worked at Hampton Court Palace for the last 25 years?
    Mr. Amory: I am aware that Faraday House was handed back by the local authority, and I agree that it is sad that it has remained empty for so long. It may be that we were too hopeful about being able to find a tenant for it. There were long negotiations with the hospital board for its possible use as a hostel, but at the present time plans are now in hand for its conversion into two separate residences, and I hope that they will be successful.

    Butter (Prices)
    Mr. Sparksasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that the retail price of Danish butter has risen since control was removed; and what steps he will take by price control or otherwise to remedy this situation.
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the fact that butter is now 4s. 6d. per 1b., he will consider placing long-term contracts for this commodity on Government account.
    Mr. Amory: I am aware that in a free market the price of butter varies with supply and demand. I see no reason in this for resuming Government purchase or for the reimposition of price control or rationing. Butter is obtainable today at retail prices between 3s. 8d. and 4s. 6d. per 1b.
    Mr. Sparks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the control agreement we were taking two-thirds of the total products of butter from Denmark at a very favourable price? If he is not prepared to renew that arrangement, will he tell the housewives, in particular, what steps he proposes to take to make this butter available to them at equally favourable prices?
    Mr. Amory: The hon. Member talks as if by making a Government contract we somehow avoided the harsh effects of the law of supply and demand. We do not do so, and today, if we made a Government contract, it would be upon the basis of today's market prices with the country concerned.
    Mrs. Mann: Has the right hon. Gentleman not noticed that, just as his long-term contracts are expiring, both Danish and Australian butter have leaped up in price, as all the others are doing? To what hole-and-corner shop does he go to get butter at 3s. 8d. a 1b? Will not he consider renewing bulk purchases, especially with the Dominions?
    Mr. Amory: Part of my last reply applies to the question which the hon. Lady has asked. I am not sure that there is not something wrong with the hon. Lady's marketing. I can assure the hon. Lady that Australian and New Zealand butter is obtainable today at between 3s. 8d. and 4s. 6d. a 1b. Shrinkage in the supply of Danish butter is partly seasonal, partly a result of the unusually dry summer and partly the result of new markets for Danish butter on the Continent.

    Potatoes
    Mr. Sparksasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why the import of potatoes has been stopped; and what steps he is taking to secure an adequate supply for home consumption.
    Mr. Amory: I understand from my right hon. Friend the President of the

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    Board of Trade that the open general licence issued in June of this year had been intended to permit the import from certain countries without specific licence of new potatoes and sweet potatoes only. It was found however that the terms of the open general licence were not sufficiently precise to prevent other potatoes also being imported under that licence. Accordingly, my right hon. Friend has amended the licence in order to clarify the position. In regard to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) on 1st November last.
    Mr. Sparks: Will the Minister say in plain English whether it is now the policy of the Government to allow potato imports into this country, in view of the increasing shortage here, the fact that retail prices of potatoes are higher than they were last year and that they are likely to go higher unless we are permitted to import supplies?
    Mr. Amory: I do not dissent from what the hon. Gentleman has said. In the reply which I quoted I made it clear that we are now estimating what this year's crop will produce, and if, as seems likely, it will be inadequate, we shall license imports.
    Mr. B. Harrisonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what investigations have been undertaken by his research department into the square cluster method of planting potatoes which is used in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and if he will take steps to make the results of these investigations available to British growers.
    Mr. Amory: Investigations on the spacing of potato tubers which have been carried out in this country suggest that under our conditions there would be no gain from the adoption of the square cluster method of planting. Arrangements are, however, being made for trials of this method in 1956, and the results will be published in due course.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what varieties of potatoes he anticipates will be scarce during the next six months; and what steps are being taken to ensure an adequate supply of potatoes during this period.
    Mr. Amory: There are indications of a shortage of potatoes, not confined to particular varieties; as to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) on 1st November.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister aware that, by the first part of his Answer, he implicitly admits that there may be a shortage of patotoes in the coming months? As this is a staple foodstuff, what is he doing to see that there will be adequate supplies?
    Mr. Amory: I said just now that directly I am satisfied that there will be a shortage action will be taken, if necessary, to license imports. I have also said that the indication so far is that a shortage is likely. From that reply, I think that the hon. Member can draw his own conclusions.

    Molasses
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether imported molasses are classified by his Department as a food with medicinal properties; if he will require that all tins of this substance bear an analysis on their label; and what proportion of the total amount consumed annually is for human and cattle consumption, respectively.
    Mr. Amory: It is not a function of my Department to classify foods with medical properties. The Food Standards Committee advise me that there is no case for specifying a standard of composition for molasses, and I do not think any useful purpose would be served by requiring the disclosure of analysis on labels. I regret that information about the quantities consumed annually by human beings and cattle is not available.
    Mr. Sorensen: While I appreciate that with certain medicines and medicinal foods an analysis already appears on the label of the tin or container, yet, seeing that there is a substantial increase in the consumption of this substance, presumably on the ground that it has medicinal properties, would it not be advisable to avoid any deception of purchasers by ensuring that the analysis is placed on the label?
    Mr. Amory: This is the kind of point on which I rely on the Food Standards Committee.

    Prices
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that the cost-of-living index for all items is now standing at 150; and if he will take steps to maintain stability in food prices, which are chiefly responsible for the large increase in the all-items index.
    Mr. Amory: I am aware of the level of the cost-of-living index and of the benefits of stability of food prices, as in the prices of other goods and services. I am also aware that food consumption this year is running at a record high level with a strong and general demand for the higher qualities from all sections of the community. Food prices are greatly affected by weather and seasonal factors, and some of the increases in price have been due to those causes. Some have been due to increases in internal costs, such as transport and labour.
    Mrs. Mann: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is exactly what his predecessor told us? He said that with decontrol prices would find their own level. That was four years ago. When are they going to find their own level, and what will that level be?
    Mr. Amory: I am always glad when I find myself in agreement with one of my predecessors.
    Mr. Baldwin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that food in this country is cheaper than in any other country in the world, although unless we produce food at a higher price we cannot pay the farm workers the wages they deserve?
    Mr. Amory: Food prices in this country compare very favourably with the general level of prices in other countries.
    Mrs. Mann: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

  FISHING INDUSTRY
  Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that many problems peculiar to the fishing industry distinguish it from the agricultural and food industries; that these problems are growing in number and diversity; that the
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  absence of a Minister solely devoted to fishing is prejudicial to producers and consumers; and, in view of this, if he will separate the Ministry of Fisheries from the Ministry of Agriculture and take steps to appoint a separate Minister of Fisheries of equal status to the present Minister.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): A policy of having a separate small Government Department for each important industry would not be good either for the industries themselves, or for the Government or for the nation. I am convinced that the interests of the fishing industry are better served under present arrangements, when they have a Minister to speak for them in the Cabinet.
  Mr. Hughes: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the fishing industry is not small but is the third largest industry in the country and that its problems involve grave international disputes, which remain unsettled largely because the Minister, owing to the peculiarities of his Ministry—as his answers to Questions today show—is too much preoccupied with agriculture and too little with fisheries.
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that is so. There is a Joint Under-Secretary in the Department who deals with fisheries. The association of that industry with certain parts of the agriculture industry is of very long standing, from gastronomical and other points of view. I doubt whether we should be wise to disturb them.

  SHIPPING INDUSTRY (DISCUSSIONS)
  Mr. Pageasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement upon his discussions with the deputation from the British shipping industry on 8th November, 1955.
  The Prime Minister: I welcomed this opportunity to discuss the current problems of the shipping industry. The meeting was private.
  Mr. Page: Will not the Prime Minister be a little more forthcoming on this matter? In particular, will he say whether flag discrimination and the American Cargo Preference Act were

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  discussed, and if so, whether the information he received has strengthened his resolve to press this country's case in those two respects?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. It is perfectly in order for a Minister to have private meetings with representatives of leading industries. I have nothing to add to what I said.

  FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANISATION (MINISTER'S SPEECH)
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether the official statement made in Rome on 8th November by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Donnelly: Is the Prime Minister aware that, despite the soporific statements of the Minister of Agriculture just now, the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in Rome has caused a very severe crisis in the Food and Agricultural Organisation, the Director-General of which as stated in The Times, has threatened to resign? Is he aware of the importance of this kind of organisation in the competitive co-existence beginning now? Will he state the policies of Her Majesty's Government towards it?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think the position is quite as critical as the hon. Gentleman has put it. With his wide knowledge of international affairs, he cannot think that it is as bad as that. The Commission asked for a considerably increased Budget, and my right hon. Friend, while not disagreeing to some increase, did say that he thought the increase might be examined and slightly reduced, which is not an unusual exercise in any international organisation and could sometimes be beneficial.

  ROYAL COMMISSION ON COMMON LAND
  Mr. Jannerasked the Prime Minister if he is yet in a position to give the full membership of the Royal Commission which has been appointed to undertake a review of the law relating to common land in England and Wales.
  Mr. Neaveasked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the names of the members of the Royal Commission on Common Land.
  The Prime Minister: As I have already announced, Sir William Ivor Jennings will be the chairman. I hope to be able to announce the names of the other members very shortly.
  Mr. Janner: Would not the right hon. Gentleman speed this matter, in view of the anxiety about future encroachments on common land as well as the concern about those that have already taken place?
  The Prime Minister: I agree that it is desirable to get these names out soon. I also agree that it is one of the most complicated legal problems that anyone could wish to tackle. It is important that we should have a really representative Royal Commission to do this work. I would rather wait a week or two longer, if the hon. Gentleman will let me, and get a really representative Commission.
  Sir L. Ropner: Is it certain that the Forestry Commission will be represented on the Commission?
  The Prime Minister: I must ask even my hon. and gallant Friend to await the announcement of the Commission.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he will state the business which it is proposed to take next week?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crook-Shank): Yes, Sir. May I say, first, that arising out of the Motion, "That the Chairman do leave the Chair forthwith," which was passed this morning with the co-operation of both sides of the Committee in order to avoid a difficulty, it is, of course, necessary, under the procedure of the House, to reinstate the Finance Bill on the Order Paper. This Motion can be made without notice, but we do not propose to move today, which is the first day of an important debate on the Housing Subsidies Bill. Therefore, we propose to move the Motion at the beginning of business on Monday. The Ten o'clock rule will be suspended, and thereafter we will complete the Second Reading of the Housing Subsidies Bill, the

781
Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution, and the Committee and remaining stages of the Food and Drugs Bill [Lords].
The business for the remainder of the week will be as follows:
TUESDAY, 22ND NOVEMBER—Committee stage of the Finance Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 23RD NOVEMBER—It is hoped to complete the Committee stage of the Finance Bill.
THURSDAY, 24TH NovlimBER—Committee and remaining stages of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, which it is hoped to obtain by 7 p.m.
Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Aliens' Employment Bill.
Second Reading of the Leeward Islands Bill [Lords].
Committee and remaining stages of the Diplomatic Immunities Restriction Bill.
Consideration of the Motion to approve the Motor Vehicles (Variation of Speed Limit) Regulations.
FRIDAY, 25TH NovEmBER—Consideralion of Private Members' Bills.
Mr. Attlee: It is obvious that the Government were caught napping on the Finance Bill. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has considered what an admirable chance has been offered to the Chancellor to show repentance in this matter? By mere chance, the Bill has fallen by the wayside. The Chancellor could take it away and, to quote the phrase once used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), "cut its dirty throat." The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is general dissatisfaction with the Bill throughout the House, and it would be a pity to lose the opportunity vouchsafed by Providence to make a better effort.
Mr. Crookshank: The Government were not caught napping at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No, those hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who were here know exactly what the difficulty was. It was no responsibility of the Government at that stage, and we therefore cooperated to get the House up, because it was obviously the desire of all those who were here that we should then bring the sitting to an end. We therefore adopted
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a certain procedure, the consequences of which were well known at the time. As I say, the Motion will be moved on Monday.
Mr. Attlee: Do I understand from the Lord Privy Seal that he arranged for my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) to move that particular Motion?
Mr. Crookshank: I did not say anything of the sort, but the consequences of that Motion are well known, and the right hon. Gentleman might as well remember that if agreements are made we expect them to be kept.
Mr. Attlee: It is quite true that the consequences are well known today, but they do not appear to have been so well known last night. If they had been, the Government might have accepted the Motion to report Progress as the proper one.
Mr. Crookshank: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is not seized of the facts.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask what the Leader of the House meant by his extraordinary statement, just now, that agreements have to be kept? What agreement is he referring to? What is he charging us with? Perhaps he will give us an explanation.
Hon. Members: Answer.
Mr. Gaitskell: Mr. Speaker, the right hon. Gentleman has made a very serious charge against hon. and right hon. Members on this side of the House. He has accused us of breach of faith. He refuses to substantiate his charge, and I must ask him either to substantiate or to withdraw it.
Mr. Crookshank: There was a procedural Amendment on which, I understood, the right hon. Gentleman had expressed certain views.
Mr. Gaitskell: The right hon. Gentleman is completely wrong. I have expressed no views whatever, of any kind. The only thing that really disturbed the harmony of our proceedings last night was the very unfortunate intervention of the Patronage Secretary. While I am on that point, in view of the apparent desire of the Government to proceed with the

783
Finance Bill, may I ask whether the Leader of the House and the Patronage Secretary will, in future, keep themselves away from our proceedings?
Mr. H. Wilson: Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that the only agreement that was promised last night was the agreement between the Chancellor and the Committee, made on Tuesday night, that there would be, to paraphrase the Chancellor's own words, a full debate to the heart's content of all hon. Members on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," on all those questions which had not been debated because of our willingness to set them aside the previous evening?
Mr. Crookshank: All that was discussed last night.
Mrs. Braddock: Is the Leader of the House aware that that promise was made by the Chancellor in relation to a matter that I raised, and that, had not my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) accepted it—I think wrongly, because I would not have trusted the Chancellor at all—or if the promise had been kept, there would have been no difficulty, and the Government would not have got themselves into the mess in which they find themselves at the moment?
Mr. Crookshank: The hon. Lady need not worry. The Government are not in a mess at all.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. These exchanges do not seem to me to have a bearing on the business for next week, which we are discussing, but refer to the business of this morning. I should have thought that hon. Members would have had enough of that by this time.
Mr. Hale: Has the Leader of the House considered the legal position arising out of last night's decision? Is he satisfied that the Orders that have been made and the Resolutions passed under the Budget initiated by his right hon. Friend now stand, in view of the unanimous acceptance by the House of a decision which takes the Finance Bill off the Order Paper and leaves it in a state of suspense, from which it can only be revived if the House rejects the unanimous decision to which it came last night on
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the advice of the Chancellor? In these circumstances, can he reassure traders in the meantime, because the absence of the Finance Bill from the Order Paper is an unprecedented event? Will he also bear in mind that, in courtesy to the House, he should make some alternative arrangements for next week's business, in case the Motion to be moved on Monday is not carried and the House adheres to its decision?
Mr. Crookshank: I can answer the hon. Gentleman straight away. It makes no difference whatever to the legal position.
Mr. C. Pannell: On a point of order. As I understand, there is no Finance Bill, and, therefore, in announcing the business for next week as including the Finance Bill, is not the right hon. Gentleman anticipating the decision of the House that we are going to put it back? Is not that completely out of order?
Mr. Speaker: I heard the right hon. Gentleman say that on Monday he would move a Motion to restore the Finance Bill to the Order Paper, and I presume that the subsequent arrangements about the Finance Bill were conditional on that Motion being accepted. That is quite in order.
Mr. Pannell: Further to that point of order, Sir. Does not that infringe the rule about anticipation?
Mr. Speaker: No. The rule about anticipation applies to debate, and debate at Question Time is out of order, so there could be no infringement of the rule.
Mr. Collins: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he recalls that last week, after considerable discussion with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, he promised a second day for the consideration of the Housing Subsidies Bill? Is he further aware that, in the opinion of many of my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the House, this is one of the most important and far-reaching proposals of Her Majesty's Government? That being so, does he not regard it as a complete breach of the promise made to the House that we should consider this Bill only after seven o'clock on Monday night? In view of the importance of the subject, will he not reconsider the matter, and adhere to the original promise to give another day to discussion of this very vital problem?
Mr. Crookshank: The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood the position. We are taking the Second Reading on Monday. I never said anything about after seven o'clock at all. I merely said that it would be, not after the Finance Bill, but after we had disposed of this procedural Motion.
Mr. S. Silverman: May I ask the Leader of the House, on business, a question relating to another matter on which the House expressed a unanimous opinion this week? He will remember that the House unanimously gave me leave to introduce a Bill dealing with the proposed abolition of the death penalty, and that since then there has appeared upon the Order Paper a Motion, signed by 166 right hon. and hon. Members of all parties, expressing the desire of the House for a day for the discussion of a Motion for the Second Reading of that Measure? Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that? If so, can he tell us whether the Government will provide time for it? He will remember that in 1948 that precise course was taken by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) on the same matter in connection with the Criminal Justice Bill.
[That this House would welcome an opportunity to consider a Motion that the Death Penalty (Abolition) Bill be read a second time.]
Mr. Crookshank: I make it my business to look at all the Motions on the Order Paper, and, naturally, I noted that one, but there is no question of the Government giving time for a debate on a Bill which, after all, is only at the stage of having received leave to be introduced, and which, moreover, is a Private Member's Bill. I have to consider the rights of other private Members who have Bills as well.
Mr. Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the course I am suggesting has a quite recent precedent, that the House gave leave to introduce a Bill and the Government subsequently not merely provided time to debate it, though it was a Private Member's Bill, but adopted it. This is a case in which the House has been completely unanimous. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It was completely unanimous. I do not know whether anyone has had second
786
thoughts since then, but on Tuesday the House was completely unanimous. If the right hon. Gentleman does not think that the extent of the demand in the House is yet sufficient, would he, for the information of those hon. Members who have not yet signed the Motion, tell the House exactly what number of hon. Members of the House signing the Motion would induce him to give effect to democracy in Parliamentary representation in this House?
Mr. Crookshank: I could not possibly give a reply to a question about numbers, but I must point out to the hon. Gentleman, who has twice repeated that the House was completely unanimous, that he omitted to say what the House was unanimous about. What the House was unanimous about was giving him leave to introduce the Bill. It had nothing to do with the merits of the Bill at all.
Mr. Benn: Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously tell the House that, when the House gave a First Reading to my hon. Friend's Bill on Tuesday, without any of his hon. and right hon. Friends indicating any dissent—Mr. Speaker will correct me if I am wrong—when the records of the House show that the House gave a First Reading to a Bill for the abolition of the death penalty, it is in accordance with the dignity of the Government and the House that he should have allowed it to receive a First Reading without dissent and then suggest that it is no concern of his, as Leader of the House, to provide an opportunity for the Bill to proceed further?
Hon. Members: Answer.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: In view of the large number of hon. Members who may wish to speak on the Housing Subsidies Bill on Monday, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the same amount of time will be added on to the time allotted to that Bill after 10 o'clock as is occupied by the discussion on the procedural Motion before 10 o'clock?
Mr. Crookshank: I think we had better see how we get along.
Mr. Attlee: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would not want to depart from a promise given to the House, that there would be a full debate on that Bill, which would not be so if it comes on late. Is

787
there any reason why the procedural Motion could not be taken after the Housing Subsidies Bill?
Mr. Crookshank: There is no particular reason why this procedural Motion should take very long, because, after all, it arises out of something which was decided with the co-operation of both sides of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It certainly was, in order to deal with a situation which was not of our making, nor, if I may say so, the making of the Opposition. It was to meet that situation, and, therefore, there is no particular reason why this should take very long. If the right hon. Gentleman wants me to consider a proposal of that kind we will, of course, consider anything, but there is something to be said for continuing with the Money Resolution immediately after the Second Reading, without a break.
Mr. Attlee: The right hon. Gentleman knowns from his long experience in the House that procedural Motions of this kind often do take a very long time. It is only fair that this very important Bill should be taken at a proper time of day.
Mr. Crookshank: One cannot possibly forecast how long anything will take in this House, but one anticipates that the House will act reasonably. I think that that is a fair anticipation, and, of course, we want to get on with the Housing Subsidies Bill, the importance of which we recognise, just as much as right hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Mr. H. Morrison: There were exchanges last week about the Housing Subsidies Bill, and we were obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving us two days, but it surely is a matter of honour that the promised two days should be given. After all, is it reasonable of the right hon. Gentleman to take the view, when he puts down this procedural Motion, and thereby holds over our heads, so to speak, that we have to let it go through formally, whereas it is a matter which is debatable? I put it to him that he has an obligation to give us two days on the Housing Subsidies Bill.
Secondly, I put it to him that the difficulty the Government are in has arisen directly out of the proceedings during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill. Therefore, would it not be preferable and more logical if we took the procedural Motion at the beginning of the proposed
788
resumed Committee stage of the Finance Bill on Tuesday rather than mix it up with the Housing Subsidies Bill on Monday?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not think that that would do. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman need worry that I shall fall down on my obligations to the House.
Mr. Dailies: Does not the Leader of the House think his proposals for Monday are an outrage in view of his intentions that the House shall go into Recess for four weeks at Christmas?
Mr. Roy Jenkins: On a different point, may I ask the Leader of the House whether, as it is now clear that none of the successive Finance Bills of this year, in so far as they exist, provides any opportunity for discussing general taxation questions, he has fixed a day for the discussion of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income, which reported more than six months ago, having sat for four years, and having produced a very voluminous Report? Is it not discourteous to the Royal Commission not to provide an early day for discussion of its Report?
Mr. Crookshank: There is no likelihood of a place for such a debate next week.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I press the Leader of the House on the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison)? I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the immediate occasion for the Motion which was moved early this morning was not directly, but only indirectly, due to the Government's behaviour, but I suggest to him that it would be far more appropriate to take the procedural Motion on Tuesday. I cannot see any difficulty about that. It would enable the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) to have the necessary assurance that he would be able to speak in the debate on the Housing Subsidies Bill, and it would be for the satisfaction of the House generally, which it is supposed to be the duty of the right hon Gentleman to consider.
Mr. Donnelly: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether, in view of the technical situation in relation to the Finance

789
Bill now, it is possible for us to discuss it on the radio, because it does not exist? Can he give us an assurance that we shall soon have a debate on the 14-day rule?
Mr. Crookshank: On that matter, certain conversations have taken place and I hope it may be possible to fix a day in the week after next for a debate, which will be on a Motion.
Mr. H. Morrison: While the right hon. Gentleman affirmed his obligations to the House, which we are most anxious that he shall fulfil, what he has not answered is the question which I put to him, and which was reaffirmed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), namely, that as this difficulty has arisen out of the consideration of the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, is it not fairer to the House and more logical that it should be picked up before the Committee stage of the Finance Bill on Tuesday rather than that we should run the risk of using up time which would have been devoted to the Housing Subsidies Bill, a Measure of very great importance?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not really think so. I think it is as well to take it as soon as possible. Probably the right thing would be to do it now, but as the beginning of the Second Reading of the Housing Subsidies Bill today is so much awaited in the country I thought we would leave it over until Monday.
Mr. C. Pannell: In view of the situation in which the Government have got themselves, is there any truth in the rumour that they intend to accept the resignation of the Patronage Secretary?
Mr. Attlee: Can the Leader of the House say whether the Government will afford time for, or arrange, a debate on the Near Eastern situation?
Mr. Crookshank: I take it the right hon. Gentleman refers to the Middle East. I note his request. As he knows, the Foreign Secretary has only just returned and has to go abroad again next week, but I will have consultations with him about the subject.
Mr. Attlee: The right hon. Gentleman surely realises that there is a rather serious position there, and we think the House ought to debate it soon.
Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. Earlier in today's proceedings the Chancellor made a threat. He said that the Government now proposed to govern. Is today's performance a sample of how the Government intend to proceed?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order. We must now proceed with the other business.

BILL PRESENTED
  AGRICULTURAL RESEARCH
  Bill to make provision with respect to agricultural research, presented by Mr. Amory; supported by Mr. J. Stuart and Mr. H. Brooke; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next and to be printed. [Bill 70.]
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Proceedings on the Validation of Elections (No. 3) Bill exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  HOUSING SUBSIDIES BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.56 p.m.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I hope that the speech that I shall be making may perhaps lower the temperature from what it has been during the last few minutes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Some hope!"] The provisions of this Bill must, of course, be viewed against the background of the country's general housing position. In the 'thirties houses were being built at an average rate of over 300,000 a year, an active slum clearance campaign was well under way, and slum houses were being demolished at the rate of about 60,000 a year. But all that was brought to a stop by the war.
  Early in 1945, before the war with Germany had ended, the all-party Coalition Government, in which I was Minister of Works, issued a White Paper setting out our common conception of the nation's post-war housing problem. In it we emphasised what we conceived to be the most important tasks ahead. The first was to get house building restarted on the largest possible scale and as quickly as practicable. The second was to resume, as soon as practicable, the campaign to clear the slums.
  In the years after the war the housing shortage was so acute that the whole of our house building resources had to be concentrated on providing dwellings for families who were without a separate home. The then Government— the Government of the party opposite—accordingly gave instructions that slum clearance should, in general, continue, as it had done during the war, to be suspended. In the circumstances of the time, that was unavoidable. I think we can all agree upon that. Any roof then was better than no roof, and a slum house was better than no house at all.
  Since then ten years have gone by. During that time 2 million new permanent dwellings have been built in Great Britain, together with another 500,000 temporary houses and flat conversions.
  792
  Almost all these 2½ million dwellings have gone to people who had no separate home of their own. As I know only too well from my correspondence and from visits to various parts of the country, there are, unfortunately, still a very great number of families without a separate home, living in conditions which are not conducive either to good health or to happy family married life. But I think the House will agree that hardship is not confined to those who have to share a house with other people. There are countless families who have separate homes of their own but who are living in damp and insanitary conditions in wretched slum dwellings up and down the country.
  Although, during these last ten years, 2½ million new dwellings have been provided, only a very small proportion of them have been made available to rehouse families from the slums. I think that every fair-minded person will agree that it is not right that the needs of these families in the slum areas should continue to be ignored indefinitely. The time has come when they should be given a reasonable share of the new houses that are being built and, since for all these years they have so largely been passed over, we think it only fair that their share should now be a substantial one.
  Mr. J. A. Sparks: That is not correct.
  Mr. Sandys: What is not correct?
  Mr. Sparks: That the people living in the slums are being passed over. They qualify on the housing lists with any other persons. Many of them have been rehoused.
  Mr. Sandys: I hope the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) will make a speech on those lines in one of the slum areas in Manchester, Liverpool or Birmingham.
  It was these considerations which led us to declare in our Election manifesto that we intended to devote a larger part of the nation's house building effort to the elimination of the slums. We had already set in motion preparations for the resumption of slum clearance by the Housing Act, 1954, which required all the local authorities to report the number of unfit houses in their areas, together with their proposals for demolishing them and for rehousing the occupants. Those reports show that in England and Wales

  793
  there are about 850,000 of these unfit houses. Of those, the local authorities concerned propose to demolish about 375,000 during the next five years. They have set themselves a very ambitious target. I cannot say whether they will be able fully to achieve it, but the Government will do all they can to help and encourage them to do so.
  There are two possible methods by which the Government can give an impetus to slum clearance. One method is that of direction; the other is the method of incentive. Any system of direction, to be effective, would not only necessitate the continuance of housing allocations but would involve the introduction of still more detailed control from the centre. In addition to fixing the total number of houses to be built by each local authority, the Government would have to decide how many slum houses were to be demolished in each area each year and, also, how many of the new dwellings built were to be allocated to rehouse the occupants.
  I submit that any such arrangement would, in practice, be extremely difficult to work and, in our opinion, would entail a wholly unjustifiable interference in local affairs by the "gentleman in Whitehall." For these reasons, we rejected the method of Government direction and decided to adopt the alternative method of financial incentive. It is with this object that we are introducing in this Bill the principle of a differential in the subsidy rates in favour of houses for slum clearance. We propose to create this differential by maintaining at the present level of £22 the subsidy for houses built to replace slums, while reducing to £10 the subsidy on houses built for general needs. [HON. MEMBERS: "Incentive?"]
  I see what hon. Members have in mind. Of course, the differential could be created by the opposite method—that is to say, by increasing the subsidy for slum clearance instead of reducing the basic rate for general needs. We would have adopted that course but for the fact that we were satisfied that the total amount of subsidy which the Exchequer is now paying out in respect of existing houses is larger than is really necessary and provides a margin which can properly be used for financing some part of the future house building programme.
  794
  I think it is worth remembering that housing subsidies are granted with one object, and one object only, namely, to ensure that nobody, through lack of means, shall be prevented from having a decent, healthy home.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Does the right hon. Gentleman say that was the only reason? He has just said "the only reason."
  Mr. Sandys: That is what I said. The reason is to ensure that nobody shall be prevented, through poverty or lack of means, from having a healthy home. The purpose is to bridge the gap between the full unsubsidised rent and what the tenant can reasonably afford to pay. I know that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) takes a different view. I do not know that his view is generally shared by all hon. Members opposite, judging from some of the speeches and writings I have observed. I know that in an article in his newspaper, Tribune, the other day—I have the paper here and there is a very fine picture of the right hon. Member on the front page—he declared:
  "The purpose of the housing subsidies is to keep down the general level of rents"
  The right hon. Member is entitled to his view, but we on this side of the House do not agree that it is in the general interest to keep the cost of housing artificially low for all council tenants regardless of their incomes. The justification for housing subsidies is need and, in our opinion, need alone.
  We are supported by very fine authorities from the party opposite in that expression of opinion. The further we get away from the basis of need, I maintain, the more unsound, unfair and anomalous the whole system becomes. Before the war, local authorities were responsible for building houses only for the working classes. Since the war, in view of the acute shortage, council houses have had to be provided for those with the greatest housing need regardless of their means. As a result—I am not quarrelling with this, but it is a fact worth noting—today there is a very much wider variation in the income levels of council tenants than there was in the past.
  Therefore, while, previously, it might have been reasonable to assume that almost all council tenants needed to be

  795
  subsidised, and perhaps roughly to the same extent, that position no longer exists today. Housing need is no longer synonymous with financial need. There is no doubt that the rents of a large number of council houses are at present being subsidised to a greater extent than the financial circumstances of the individual tenants require.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Would the right hon. Gentleman apply the same principle to the derating of industry?
  Mr. Sandys: I am dealing with housing subsidies today.
  Mr. Albert Evans: Would the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Sandys: This is a complicated subject and I thought the House would wish to try to follow the arguments instead of producing a number of red herrings, as hon. Gentlemen opposite are doing.
  Mr. Evans: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether he proposes to give a factual basis for the statement he has just made?
  Mr. Sandys: We shall have ample opportunity to discuss the provisions of the Bill, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to deploy my argument in my own way.
  I repeat, there is no doubt that the rents of large numbers of council houses are now being subsidised to a greater extent than the financial circumstances of the tenants require. I would remind the House of something which we must always bear in mind, namely, that money for housing subsidies does not fall like manna from heaven. It has to be collected from the general body of taxpayers and ratepayers, many of whom are less well-off than the council tenants they are subsidising. That, in our opinion, is both unjust and wasteful. We feel, therefore, that the time has come to restore some measure of fairness to our housing finances and to put some reasonable brake upon the continuous growth of the subsidy burden, which bears so heavily upon taxpayers and ratepayers alike. We have felt that for quite a long time.
  There is nothing new in what I am saying today. We have never attempted to conceal our views. In fact, as long ago
  796
  as November, 1953, in the White Paper issued by the Government and entitled "Houses: the Next Step" we drew attention to
  "the ever-growing burden of housing subsidies which,"
  we said—
  "cannot, in the interests of the general body of taxpayers, continue indefinitely at the present rate."
  To sum up what I have said so far, the introduction of this Bill is justified on two grounds. The first is that it will give to local authorities the necessary incentive to resume slum clearance on a substantial scale. The second is that it will infuse into housing finance a greater measure of fairness and economy.
  As I indicated in my statement to the House three weeks ago, it is the intention of the Government, within a year or so, to abolish altogether the basic subsidy on houses built for general needs. The £10 subsidy is an interim measure for a short transitional period, during which local authorities will be able to adjust their rent structure to the new position. The revised rates will come into effect only gradually over a period, for there are already in the pipeline nearly a quarter of a million council houses for which tenders were approved before the introduction of this Bill. All these houses, some of which will not be completed for eighteen months or more, are not affected and will continue to attract subsidy at the old rates.
  So far, I have spoken about houses. Now I turn to flats. The existing subsidy on flats was fixed at a time when there was little experience of the actual costs of flat building, except in London, where costs are always abnormally high. The result has been that the subsidy for flats has for some time been disproportionately high in relation to the subsidy for houses. Some reduction has, therefore, been made to take account of this factor.
  We have also taken this opportunity to make an important change in the structure of the subsidy for flats. Hitherto, all flats have been subsidised at the same rate regardless of the height of the building. Since construction, in practice, costs more as you go higher, the result has been that flats in low blocks have been more heavily subsidised in relation to costs than flats in high blocks. Apart

  797
  from being inequitable, this has unintentionally influenced local authorities to concentrate on building blocks of three, four and five storeys, which, I believe, many hon. Members will agree are most monotonous.
  Mrs. Harriet Slater: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the position in areas like mine, where there is mining subsidence, where we cannot build higher than three storeys? Are they to be denied the opportunity of having flats? His hon. Friend saw some very successful ones there last week.
  Mr. Sandys: I do not know what the hon. Lady means. If she will look at the Bill—
  Mrs. Slater: I am looking at it.
  Mr. Sandys: —she will see that the subsidy is graded according to the height of the building. There is a sliding scale.
  As regards mining subsidence, the existing preferential subsidy will be continued for the future. Therefore, there is no point about the position in areas of mining subsidence and nothing will stop local authorities from building blocks of flats of three, four or five storeys. They can build as high as they like. We only thought it right that the subsidy for flats should be related to the cost of building, and that there should not be an incentive to build lower blocks just because there was a financial advantage.
  Mr. Sparks: Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me to make an important point? He is telling the House that he proposes to bring all subsidies to an end except for slum clearance. Is he proposing to bring subsidies to an end with the very kind of flats he is now talking about, because some are for slum clearance purposes and others are not, coming under Part V of the Housing Act? Could he clear up that important point?
  Mr. Sandys: I think the hon. Gentleman has misread the Bill.
  Mr. Bevan: I know this is a very difficult and complicated subject, but we should like to get it clear for the sake of the debate. The right hon. Gentleman has been quite correct in saying that there is a close relationship between the financial provisions and the physical pro-
  798
  grammes of the local authorities. He has just told the House, with respect to additional accommodation that is not slum clearance, that he proposes, in a year or two, to end the housing subsidy altogether. That is what he said. One would assume that that would be applied to flats which are additional accommodation and not built for slum clearance schemes. That is the first point.
  The second point is this, and it is a very important one. In the past, local authorities have always known that subsidies might be varied in March, but they have always known that the subsidies were fixed on the basis of building costs. Now the subsidies may be ended upon the ipse dixit of the Government. Thus an element of very considerable uncertainty is to be introduced into local authority schemes, and if the right hon. Gentleman is to do something of this sort, ought he not to be clearer about how he is going to do it?
  Mr. Sandys: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is hoping to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, to make a speech in this debate, and I think it would be better if be deployed this point then, and we shall answer him. I thought I had made it quite clear—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—that we want to give an impetus to slum clearance, and that that is why we are creating this differential; not because it necessarily costs more to build houses in replacement of a slum, but because we want to give a definite incentive to local authorities to get on with slum clearance.
  We intend at a later stage—we have not decided exactly when it will be—to do away with the basic subsidy on houses for general needs. I am not prepared at this stage to say exactly what the arrangement will be at that time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Well, well."] It is all very well for hon. Members to say "Well well." There will have to be an announcement before any change is made in these subsidies, before the £10 subsidy is removed, and an affirmative Resolution will have to be proposed, as the Bill provides, and so there will be plenty of opportunity for the House to discuss it.
  Obviously, the question of flats raises a problem different from that of the abolition of the basic subsidy for houses, not only because of the extra cost of flats. Very often flats are built in the centres of cities, and the cost of their sites is,

  799
  perhaps, the most important element in their total cost. Therefore, I am not proposing to make a statement at this stage. We have said that it will be a year or so before we make the change in subsidies, and I think then will be the time to make clear exactly what is proposed for flats.
  Mr. C. W. Gibson: I understood the Minister to say—and it is very important to get this clear—that the new subsidy for flats is so arranged as to meet the extra costs as a result of their being built higher. Is it not a fact that under the proposed arrangement there will be less subsidy for flats up to nine storeys high, and that the additional and, as it were, profitable subsidy does not begin to apply until the flats reach to ten or eleven storeys? Is that the policy of the Government?
  Mr. Sandys: I do not want to go into great detail about this now, though not because I do not know what the basis of the subsidy is. However, since the hon. Member does press me upon it, and as he has been the Chairman of the Housing Committee of the London County Council, I will say in general terms what the basis of the new subsidy is. We find that it is the tendency of many authorities not to put lifts in blocks of flats up to a certain level—I think it is four storeys. We have, therefore, made an allowance for that. In a high proportion of blocks of five storeys they do put in lifts. There is, therefore, a jump in the scale of the subsidy on this account.
  For reasons of building construction the cost of a building of six storeys goes up considerably, because then steel framing has to be used for the building. That is the reason for the special jump in the scale of subsidy applied to six storey buildings. Above that, though one cannot be precise about it, the cost goes up more or less progressively as additional storeys are added to a building. That, broadly, is the basis on which we are working. I will gladly give the hon. Member more information in Committee. We should get out of perspective if we were to go into that matter in more detail now. Thus, we are proposing to vary in future the rate subsidy for flats according to the number of storeys in the building.
  800
  As for houses, the new rate of subsidy for flats built for general needs, is £12 lower than the rate for slum clearance and other special purposes, as the House will see from the Bill, especially the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, in which the matter is very clearly set out.
  I come to the special rate of subsidy proposed for houses built in new town areas as part of town expansion schemes and to accommodate overspill population from congested cities. I may be asked why we are increasing to £24 the subsidy on those houses when, at the same time, we are reducing to £10 the basic subsidy for general needs. The explanation is that these new towns have not the same financial resources that ordinary housing authorities have. Their rents are already well above the average, and they possess no large pool of existing houses over which they can spread the loss of subsidy on their future houses. In particular, they have no stock of low cost pre-war dwellings to help them bring down the average economic rent in their areas.
  Small towns which are being expanded under the Town Development Act are faced with somewhat similar problems. Without the proposed subsidy—I am talking of the subsidy of £24—the rents of the new houses built for the incoming population would be too high for most people to pay, unless they were averaged out with the lower rents of the existing houses in the area. That would mean—and I ask hon. Members to address their minds to this—that the rents of the local inhabitants would have to be put up to subsidise the rents of the strangers coming in from the big cities. Not only would that be bound to create the most fearful resentment against the newcomers, but it would certainly make it much more difficult in the future to get agreement for further schemes of town expansion.
  Similar considerations may in special cases apply in connection with housing schemes to accommodate a large influx of workpeople to meet urgent needs of industry in some areas. When I made my statement the other day the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) asked about miners. It is the coal mining industry that we have particularly in mind in including this provision in the Bill. An approved scheme of this

  801
  kind will qualify for subsidy of £24 in the same way as an expansion scheme under the Town Development Act.
  Mr. Bevan: Many of these points may be Committee points, but we can save a lot of time if we are clear about them from the beginning. It is quite clear that where there is a big transfer of miners from one area to another, say, from Fife-shire into Lanarkshire, or places like that, this provision will apply, but as far as I can see—unless the right hon. Gentleman tells me to the contrary—it will not apply where miners' houses are normally built, in expanding mining areas where there is no migration of population from one part to another.
  Mr. Sandys: It will not apply to Lanarkshire, because the Bill applies only to England and Wales.
  Mr. Bevan: I know.
  Mr. Sandys: I understood that the right hon. Gentleman was merely giving an example, but I wanted to make clear that the Bill does not apply to Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman asked me whether this special subsidy would apply to the building of houses for miners already resident in the area. The answer is, no. It is the normal duty and responsibility of a local authority to provide houses for the people who live in its area. The reason why we are providing a special increased subsidy in these cases is because we do not consider that it is reasonable to expect local authorities necessarily in the same way, and on the same basis, to provide additional accommodation for a very large influx of population which would involve a building effort entirely out of proportion to their normal building programmes.
  Some very alarmist statements have been made about the effect on rents of the reduction in the subsidies proposed in the Bill, combined with the rise in interest rates during the past year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] They have been very alarmist statements, and I am glad that hon. Gentlemen opposite agree. Leading Labour members of various local authorities have asserted that rents will have to go up by about 15s. a week. [HON. MEMBERS: "More than that."] In the House the other day, the right hon.
  802
  Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) quoted a figure of 16s. 3d. a week. These statements have undoubtedly given a most misleading impression. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I think that it is a shame that people who really must know better should needlessly cause anxiety and dismay among countless families on the waiting lists.
  Mr. G. Lindgren: The right hon. Gentleman is causing the dismay, not we.
  Mr. Sandys: All these calculations seem entirely to overlook two facts. The first is that in the years ahead a greatly increased number of houses will be built for slum clearance and overspill. These houses will continue to attract the present subsidy or a higher subsidy. The second fact is that local authorities will continue to receive large amounts of subsidy on their existing houses, and they are free to use some of this money to subsidise the rents of any further houses that they may build. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to jeer at that, but I have no doubt that is what the local authorities are going to do. Therefore, it is wholly misleading to suggest that local authorities will, in fact, put all this increase on the new houses.
  Mr. William Ainsley: Will the Minister allow me to explain? I come from a mining area. We have miners on the waiting list of one of the local authorities in my area. That local authority informs me that the reduced housing subsidy and the increased Bank Rate will add 7s. ld. to a threebedroomed house and 6s. 3d. to a twobedroomed house.
  Mr. Sandys: Which council is that?
  Mr. Ainsley: Brandon and Byshottles Urban District Council.
  Mr. Sandys: Did the hon. Gentleman's local authority say that it intended to increase the rents of new houses by that amount, or was that a theoretical calculation?
  Mr. Ainsley: It would cost that.
  Mr. Sandys: There is all the difference in the world.
  Mr. Elwyn Jones: Will the Minister be content, therefore, if local authorities pass the whole of these additional burdens on to the rates, or is he not expecting them to extract some more rental from the tenants?
  Mr. Sandys: We believe that local government should be local. As I have already explained, the reduced subsidy rates will not make their full impact for 18 months or more. By then, the slum clearance campaign should be well under way.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this point, will he give us two very simple figures? Taking a typical council house, first at the date when the subsidies were last fixed—that was in the middle of 1954—and, secondly, now, will be give us the corresponding figures for those two dates, and the corresponding figure when the Bill comes into operation?
  Mr. Sandys: I do not think I can do that amount of mental arithmetic. What I have worked out is something much more than that. I have gone into the figures of a very large number of local authorities in typical towns to see what the effect is likely to be, but not exactly on the basis which the hon. and learned Gentleman suggested, because I do not believe that is the way in which local authorities will operate.
  I was saying that the new rates of subsidy would not make their full impact for eighteen months or more. By that time, the slum clearance campaign will be well under way. The Government's target, as we announced at the General Election, is to rehouse at lease 200,000 people a year from the slums. To achieve this, no fewer than 60,000 houses a year will have to be provided. To provide for overspill, about 13,000 houses a year are now being built in the new and expanding towns. The rate is increasing, and we shall do all that we can to get it up to at least 20,000 houses a year.
  These 20,000 houses for overspill, added to the minimum of 60,000 houses for slum clearance, make a total of at least 80,000 houses which will attract subsidy at the present rate or higher. That is a point entirely overlooked in all these calculations that are being made. In England and Wales, local authorities,
  804
  including the new towns, are now building houses at the rate of about 160,000 a year. I do not know what the future rate of building will be. I am assuming for the purpose of this argument—and I am making this assumption because it is favourable to the arguments of hon. Members opposite in their calculations about rents, and they have been saying that the result of this Bill will be a great drop in house building—that local authorities will continue to build at the same rate as at present. [Interruption.] I am giving the benefit of the doubt to hon. Members opposite. Assuming that the rate of building does not increase—that is what I am saying—the House will see that at most 80,000 houses will suffer the cut in subsidy.
  Hon. Members may say that it is another assumption. I assume that, when the slum clearance campaign gets under way, at least 60,000 houses a year will be built for slum clearance. They will attract the same subsidy, £22, as they do today. I am assuming that we will keep the rate of building in new towns and expanded towns for overspill purposes at 20,000 houses a year, and I think that that is a reasonable forecast. That makes a total of 80,000. The total now being built is 160,000 and if we take 80,000 from 160,000, we get 80,000. [Laughter.] I am glad that I have carried hon. Gentlemen with me in my arithmetic. It is a little confusing that the two figures should both be 80,000.
  Assuming that the rate of 160,000 houses built by local authorities does increase, the House will see that, at the most, only 80,000 houses will suffer a cut in subsidy. I will do some more arithmetic. The reduction in the subsidy from £22 to £10 on this maximum of 80,000 houses will involve a loss in subsidy of about £1 million a year. The point I want to make is that. if this is spread over all the 2¼ million houses owned by local authorities, it could, without any increase in contributions from the rates, be offset by an annual increase in rent averaging no more than 2d. a week.
  Mr. Bevan: The Minister has proceeded on the wrong basis, because he recently stated in the House that if the housing subsidies had been adjusted to take account of increased costs of production, especially the Bank Rate, the subsidy should be £30 a year.
  Mr. Sandys: I am not overlooking interest rates. I will come to that point now. I thought that it would be convenient for the House if I dealt with the two elements separately. I have dealt with the subsidy and now I come to interest rates, to which the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale referred.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Sandys: I cannot do arithmetic when there so many interruptions.
  Since the present subsidy was fixed, more than a year ago—and that is really the operative date—interest rates have gone up from 3¼ per cent. to about 5 per cent. and that has added—and I think that this is one of the figures which the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) wanted—about £17 a year to the cost of a council house. The hon. and learned Member will be glad of that information. The rise in the interest rates during the past year has increased the cost of a council house by £17 a year.
  At the present rate of building, these additional borrowing costs—and I am making the same calculation as I did for the loss of subsidy—if spread over all existing local authority houses, would involve, on the average, an annual rent increase of about 5d. a week. Fivepence plus 2d. makes 7d.
  Mr. George Chetwynd: If the total effect on local authorities is so small, how does the Minister square that with his claims to his own party that he is making slashing reductions in public costs?
  Mr. Sandys: I do not recall having used that expression. I have not finished what I wanted to say about these calculations.
  I wish to emphasise—because I have no doubt that if I do not do so, I shall be misrepresented—that these figures are, of course, overall averages. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Overall averages are a useful indication of the order of magnitude of the effect of these changes. These are overall averages which are arrived at simply by dividing the increased costs, that is to say, the combined costs of the loss of subsidy and the rise in interest rates, by the total number of existing council houses in England and Wales.
  Mr. Jack Jones Mr. Jack Jones (Rotherham) rose—
  Mr. Sandys: I want to make myself clear. I will give way in a moment.
  These figures are averages for the whole country; but let there be no misunderstanding on the point. I am not for one moment suggesting that nobody's rent will be increased by more than these amounts. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Of course I am not. I want to finish this argument, or there will be confusion. I will give way to the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) in a moment. I have always given way to him, even when we were discussing steel, about which he used at times to get very heated.
  All I am trying to say is that, if a local authority will spread the increased costs over all its houses, instead of putting them solely on the new ones, the rent increases involved will not be nearly as great as some people, particularly members of the party opposite have sought to suggest.
  Mr. Jack Jones: The Minister has caused me to change the question I had intended to ask. Am I now authorised by the Minister to tell my constituents that if their rents are increased by more than 7d. it is because the Government's intentions are not being carried out?
  Mr. Julius Silverman: Before the Minister answers that question, supposing his arithmetic is correct and there is an increase of 7d. accounting for interest and the cut in subsidy, is that not simply on the first year's building, which means that on five successive years' building the increase would be five sevenpences, or about 3s. and that over ten years it would amount to about 6s.
  Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member for Aston (Mr. J. Silverman) is quite right. I did say "annually" and for five years the increase would be 7d. a year and five sevenpences are 35 pence which is just under 3s.
  The hon. Member for Rotherham has altogether mistaken what I said. I said that I wished to make it quite clear that I was not suggesting for one moment that nobody's rent would go up by more than the amounts I mentioned. The figures I was quoting were averages and

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  I explained to the House exactly the way in which I arrived at these figures, merely to indicate the order of the effect which these proposals, plus the rise in interest rates, would have.
  Mr. William Warbey Mr. William Warbey (Ashfield) rose—
  Mr. Sandys: I am sorry, but I cannot give way. In the interests of other hon. Members it is desirable that the trend of the argument on these calculations should not be constantly interrupted.
  I should like to make it clear again that the actual amount of rent increase will vary from district to district. Moreover, and this is a point of which I want hon. Members to take note, many local authorities may well take this opportunity to make rent increases which are already overdue but which are quite unconnected with the Bill or with the rise in interest rates.
  Mr. Sparks: Where is the right hon. Gentleman's evidence for all this?
  Mr. Sandys: I am saying that it may well happen—and there are indications that it may happen—that local authorities who have felt for some time that their rents were on the low side will, when this new adjustment takes place in connection with the Bill, also make adjustments in respect of other matters which have been for a long time overdue. In many areas, rents are still surprisingly low and quite out of line with the current level of earnings. Average industrial earnings are now about £11 a week, yet three-bedroomed council houses in some cases are being let for as little as 9s. and 10s. a week.
  Mr. Sparks: Where?
  Mr. Lindgren: Inter-war houses?
  Mr. Sandys: Rents of houses in a great number of areas—I am talking about other areas now—are related to the current value of those houses. The fact that they were built at a particular time and cost less is not relevant to the current market value of those houses.
  Mr. Lindgren: New Tory landlords.
  Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member will get himself into deep water if he suggests that it is really right that, by the luck of the draw, a council house tenant who lives in a pre-war house should pay half
  808
  the rent paid by another council house tenant who is in comparable accommodation in post-war houses built at high cost. We must really think in terms of the accommodation provided and of the value given by these houses.
  As I said, in many cases rents are still surprisingly low. Rents of 13s. and 14s. are very common indeed and the majority of council house rents are still well below 20s. I am pursuing the point that I want hon. Members who are fair-minded in this matter to examine very carefully the reasons for any rent increases which may take place in the next year or so. I hope that they will be fair-minded and examine carefully why rent increases are being made in their areas and that they will not attribute to the Bill, or to the raising of interest rates, increases in rents not necessitated by those facts.
  Mr. Mitchison: I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman the question which I asked him before. I want him to have a second opportunity of answering it. He has taken an increase which is applicable, on his own figures, to 80,000 houses and he has spread it over 2¾ million and produced a result of 2d. and 5d. Can he now give the increase on 80,000 houses, or on a typical one of them?
  Mr. Sandys: I gave the increase on 80,000 houses for loss of subsidy, which was £1 million. I have not the other figure, but if £1 million produces 2d., it will be 5/2 × £1 million. That will be the answer for the other figure which the hon. and learned Member wants.
  I should like to say, in this connection, that a number of local authorities may well decide in the coming year or so that this is the right moment to introduce some system of differential rents. This can take various forms, but I have no doubt that the simplest and fairest is the one which is generally known as the rent rebate scheme. I believe that there is agreement on both sides of the House about the soundness of the principle of differential rents. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I really thought that we were agreed.
  I assumed that, when the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), who is tipped for some position or other in the party opposite, said:
  "I think that on grounds of equity there is much to be said for differential rents."

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  The hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl), speaking at the National Housing and Town Planning Conference last month, is reported to have expressed the opinion that councils would have to face,
  "… the social necessity of using the subsidy with discrimination."
  by which I assume he meant something of this kind. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale in the Tribune last week said that a number of councils with Labour majorities have applied the principle of differential rents.
  Mr. Warbey: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. May I ask you whether what the Minister is now saying is in order on Second Reading? I cannot find anything whatsover in the Bill about differential rents.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I thought that the Minister was making his case perfectly in order. I could not see anything wrong and, while I am addressing the House, I might say that this is not a Committee stage and we have had many interruptions.
  Mr. James MacColl: The Minister seemed to imply that I was taking a view of this matter which was different from that of some of my hon. and right hon. Friends. Would the right hon. Gentleman mind saying where in the remarks which he quoted I suggested in any way that local authorities should have lower subsidies? Whilst the right hon. Gentleman is talking about that conference, would he also mind saying why he did not dare come to it and face the local authorities?
  Mr. Sandys: The reason I was not there was that we were debating the Budget in this Chamber, or it may have been the day when I was making the statement about housing subsidies in the House. It was during that week. I was going to make a speech at that conference, but I was prevented by the business of the House. It is normal for hon. Members, and Ministers in particular, to put their service to the House before outside engagements.
  Mr. Lindgren: It is equally true.
  Mr. Frederick Gough: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. This is in the interests of back bench Members on both sides of the House. Is
  810
  it in order for right hon. and hon. Members opposite to trade on the good grace of my right hon. Friend and constantly interrupt the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of order, but I hope that we shall have a Second Reading debate and not a Committee stage discussion.
  Mr. Lindgren: While I accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the first duty of a Minister is to this House, if it was to the House, is it not equally true that he has a Parliamentary Secretary? Is it not rather cowardly to send a civil servant, who is not responsible for policy, to defend policy rather than to send one of the political heads?
  Dame Irene Ward: I would ask my right hon. Friend not to pay any attention to that.
  Mr. Sandys: I really think we have gone a very long way from the subject of the debate.
  In the Government's opinion, it must be left to each local authority to decide for itself how to apportion rents among its tenants. There are areas where a thorough-going rent rebate scheme would, frankly, not be worth while; for example in certain rural districts where the bulk of the council tenants are employed at the same kind of work and are earning roughly comparable wages. On the other hand, in the great majority of areas the incomes of council tenants vary very widely. Some tenants may well be able to afford the full unsubsidised rent or something very close to it.
  At the other end of the scale there may be some who genuinely find difficulty in paying their rent even at the existing level and who might be seriously embarrassed if rents were raised appreciably. In justice to these poorer tenants, and also to justice to the ratepayers, it is most desirable that local authorities in such areas should adopt some method to ensure that the benefit of the subsidy is concentrated where it is needed most instead of being distributed indiscriminately.
  As the House knows, differential rents schemes of various kinds have been successfully operated by local authorities with both Labour and Conservative majorities. I hope, therefore, though I am not entirely

  811
  optimistic, that this will not be made an issue of party controversy.
  Here, I should like to say something about the provisions of Clause 8, which has an indirect bearing on the question. Under the existing law, local authorities are obliged automatically to pay a subsidy contribution out of the rates equal to one-third of the subsidy which they receive from the Exchequer. They have to make these payments regardless altogether of the state of their Housing Revenue Account. Whatever savings a council may make on its house building and on its management expenditure, ratepayers get no benefit. Any surplus that there may be has to be left in the housing revenue account and cannot be used to relieve the rates. This is bound to make local authorities less economical in their administration and to encourage them to subsidise the rents of their tenants more than is really necessary.
  Accordingly, we propose, in Clause 8, to relieve local authorities of the statutory obligation to make contributions to the housing account from the rates except to the extent necessary to keep their accounts in balance. This will, I believe, give a valuable stimulus to the adoption of differential rents schemes and will generally provide local authorities with an additional incentive to economy.
  For the reasons which I have given, I am satisfied that most local authorities should be well able to go on building the new houses they need with the revised rates of subsidy payable under the Bill. However, I recognise that there may be exceptional cases. I am determined, and the Government are determined, that no local authorities shall, through lack of finance, be genuinely prevented from building houses which are urgently needed in this area.
  I have, therefore, provided in Clause 5 for an additional discretionary grant to deal with these exceptional cases, should they arise. The powers proposed are similar in principle to those of Section 7 of the Housing Act, 1946, but they are far more favourable than those provided by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. They are wider in scope and altogether more flexible. These additional grants can, where necessary, bring the subsidy up to a maximum of £30 per house.
  A local authority may qualify for these grants if it can show that further council
  812
  houses are urgently needed in its area and that it cannot provide them without either imposing an unreasonable burden upon the rates or charging unreasonably high rents.
  Mr. Bevan: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not leave that Clause where it is. He was entirely unfair in comparing the Clause with the Section in the 1946 Act, which was for an entirely different purpose and related to certain areas where rents were very low and building at the same costs would have meant that rents would have had to be high. What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "unreasonable"? Will he define it? Such words have always been very difficult for Ministers to define. We should like to know what he means by these very vague words.
  Mr. Sandys: I do not think it was an unfair comparison for the simple reason that the new Clause will give local authorities all that they had under the 1946 Act plus a good deal more. Therefore, I do not think it was unreasonable to say that the new arrangements were more favourable than those provided by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Sandys: I am sorry, but I am not going to be interrupted any more.
  I think that the question of the definition of "unreasonable" can more profitably be pursued in Committee. It is always dangerous to make a statement about precise definitions; it tends to be taken afterwards as some elaboration or embroidery of what is in the law. The law must stand on its own. However, I would, without commitment, suggest that unreasonably high rates are rates which are significantly higher than those of comparable authorities, and that unreasonably high rents are rents which are significantly higher than those charged by comparable authorities having regard to the general level of earnings in the district. I do not wish to go beyond that at this stage. The words "unreasonable" and "reasonable" appear throughout our legislation, and there is nothing new in introducing a term of that kind.
  Mr. Lewis Mr. Lewis rose—
  Mr. Sandys: I am not going to be interrupted any further. I really must

  813
  leave some time for other hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate.
  Whatever Government may be in power, their housing policy must be directed towards three main objectives: to provide a separate home for every family, to clear the slums, and to preserve our stock of existing houses. By our actions in the last four years we have enormously stepped up the rate of new house construction. Through this Bill we shall stimulate the resumption of slum clearance on a large scale. With the Housing Repairs and Rents Act last year we made a start on the task of saving the older houses.
  Mr. Lewis: That was "a mouldy turnip."
  Mr. Sandys: The review of the structure of rent control, which I announced the other day, is a further important step in that direction.
  In short, we are tackling the housing problem on all fronts. We are pursuing a comprehensive and coherent policy. However, in the long run the success of any housing policy depends upon its having a sound financial basis. I commend the Bill to the House because I am confident that it will help to put our housing finances on a fairer and more realistic footing.
  As we expected, the Socialists and the Communist Party—yes, I read the Daily Worker, too—are going all out to misrepresent our intentions in the hope of making some political capital for themselves. But I can assure them that the fear of some temporary unpopularity will in no way deter us from carrying through a policy which we know—and which also they know—is in the best and true interests of the country.
  5.11 p.m.
  Mr. G. Lindgren: I beg to move, to leave out "now" and at the end of the Question to add "upon this day six months."
  We have listened to a speech from the Minister which, if I may say so with respect, was not really up to his usual standard. It was a speech in which the peroration went a little flat. May I bring the House back to realities by dealing with the real intention behind the Bill? The Lord Privy Seal is present on the Front Bench opposite. The right hon.
  814
  Gentleman got the House into a mess last night over the Finance Bill.
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank)The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank) indicated dissent.
  Mr. Lindgren: Well, if the right hon. Gentleman did not, the Patronage Secretary did.
  This Bill is a continuance of the Government's budgetary policy. What are the Government saying? They are saying, "We will put up the price of food, the cost of living. We will put up the price of household necessities. We will put up the rates and increase interest charges. We will put up rents, and then, because the worker has to pay more for his food and household necessities and rates and rent, he will have less in his pocket to spend on those other extras which make life worth living."
  The Government are attacking the standard of living of the ordinary man and woman in this country, although the Minister has not the courage to say so. From him we get merely a lot of words. Those are the plain facts about the actions of the Government. We are not here, as the Minister has been inferring, to discuss a simple reduction of housing subsidies from £29 8s. to £10—£22 Is. from the Government and £7 7s. from the local authorities we are here discussing two other material factors which have a very serious effect on rents and which the Minister skated over.
  The first is the increased interest charges and the second is the alteration in borrowing arrangements for local authorities which has the effect of forcing to go to the open market for money. That is bound to send up interest rates still higher, but it has been completely ignored by the Minister. The right on. Gentleman talks about other people misrepresenting him. If there is any misrepresentation about what is happening, it may be found in the glib talk of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite both in the country and in the House.
  This Bill means that the Government are going out of the business of providing housing for the general needs of the people. The Minister half hinted, but did not actually admit in his speech, that it is a statutory obligation on local authorities to meet housing needs in their areas, whether those housing needs take the form of slum clearance schemes or the

  815
  provision of housing to meet general needs. One would have thought, after listening to the Minister, that he had relieved local authorities of their statutory obligation and that now there was only an obligation to clear the slums. But, apart from statutory obligations, is there not a human need and is not the human need and the statutory need still as great as ever it was?
  In common with most hon. Members, I make myself available to my constituents in order to discuss their problems. By far the greatest number of problems which are brought to me—and I am sure that most hon. Members would say the same—are connected with housing. There are married couples living with their families in rooms and in overcrowded conditions; there are families evicted from service tenancies who cannot obtain other accommodation. Those things are not the responsibility of a Member of Parliament and one tells such persons so. We write to the local authorities and are informed almost invariably that they are aware of these cases and are sympathetic, but that they have long housing lists and that the cases will be dealt with in turn—in, it may be, three, four or five years' time. The general housing need has nowhere been met in this country and will not be met for a very long time.
  The housing of the ordinary working people is one of the best examples of the failure of private enterprise. The Minister has been making great play of slum clearance, but where do the slums come from? They are the result of Tory landlordism. Practically no houses have been built by private enterprise for the ordinary workers since the Public Health Act, 1875, and that is a fact, although the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) may smile.
  Mr. Graham Page: I was not smiling.
  Mr. Lindgren: I will give the facts. Some of us have been occupied with this housing question for years. Some of us came into local government because we were suffering from the evils of Tory landlordism and revolted against it. There are 7¼ million privately owned rented houses in this country and over 5¼ million of them were built prior to
  816
  the Public Health Act, 1875. That Act first gave to local authorities various rights connected with building byelaws and controls, and a small degree of control over the siting, construction and density of building.
  From 1945 onwards, the Labour Government, having in mind their other commitments, including war damage repairs and the building of factories, schools and other necessary building, decided that 200,000 houses were the limit that the economy of the country and the capacity of the building industry could stand. For all that is said about the concern shown by the Tory Party for the people, actually the Tory Party is concerned only with power, and when the Tories obtain power they are concerned with what they can do for their friends. Knowing that, with all the other commitments, 200,000 houses were the limit of the capacity of the building industry and the economy of the country, what did the Tory Party do? They built 300,000 houses.
  Sir Austin Hudson: We did it, the party opposite did not.
  Mr. Lindgren: Do not interrupt too quickly, because hon. Members opposite are going to "catch a packet" in a moment.
  Squadron Leader A. E. Cooper: Not from the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Lindgren: The Tory Party now admit that the building of 300,000 houses meant that the general economy of the country would be upset. The Chancellor of the Exchequer now says so. In fact, much of the trouble with which we are dealing today, together with the problems which the Chancellor is having to handle, arise from the fact that the whole economy of the country was upset by the Tory Government when they set out to build 300,000 houses a year irrespective of the effect upon the rest of the economy.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Is the hon. Member recommending that the output of houses should forthwith be reduced to 200,000?
  Mr. Lindgren: No, but the Government are doing it automatically. The vast majority of the 200,000 houses which we built per year were for rent. The Tory Party talk about 300,000 houses a year,

  817
  but we must remember that they have set the private enterprise and speculative builders free, and that a large number of those houses are going into private ownership.
  The Minister says that we are spending too much upon housing subsidies. Why is that so? In 1951—a year for which my party will take the credit or the blame—building subsidies amounted to £63 million from the Government and £15 million from the local authorities, making a total of £78 million. That was because the amount of the subsidies per house was £16 10s. from the central Government and £5 10s. from local authorities. In 1954, those subsidies had risen to £84 million from the Government and £23 million from local authorities, making a total of £107 million. That increase was due to the increase in the Bank Rate from 3 per cent. under the Labour Government to 3¾ per cent. and then 4¼ per cent. under the Tory Government. The increased subsidies have gone, not towards the provision of more and better houses, but straight into the pockets of the financiers—who are quite good contributors to Tory Party funds.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: Into whose pockets went the added interest charges when the Labour Party increased the rate of interest in the early period of the first Labour Government?
  Mr. Lindgren: If the hon. and gallant Member wants to know about those charges I will give him particulars. In June, 1946, the rate of interest was 2½ per cent. In 1948 it rose to 3 per cent.
  Mr. Powell: Why? Was it for the moneylenders?
  Mr. Bevan: Yes. Unfortunately, that is true.
  Mr. Lindgren: Yes. But let us see what has happened since.
  I recommend the hon. and gallant Member to go to the Ilford Borough Council and ask whether it prefers the Labour Government of 1945–51, with interest rates of 2½ per cent. and 3 per cent., or the Tory Government, with 3¼ per cent. in 1951; 4¼ per cent. in 1952; 4 per cent. in 1953; 3¾ per cent. in 1954; and 4 per cent., 4¼ per cent., 4½ per cent., and 5 per cent, in 1955.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The Ilford Borough Council prefer the present Government, because they can now build their proportion of about 300,000 houses a year, compared with 200,000 when the hon. Member's party was in power.
  Mr. Lindgren: I will leave that for the local Ilford paper to take up. The hon. and gallant Member can see what his constituents think about it.
  Mr. Page: I have honestly been trying to follow the argument of the hon. Member in relation to increased expenditure. Is it not a fact that 150,000 council houses were built in 1951 and 220,000 were built in 1954? Does he really say that that increase of 70,000 council houses has nothing whatever to do with the increase in Government expenditure?
  Mr. Lindgren: Of course it was Government expenditure—because, under the Labour Government, the subsidies per house were £16 10s. from the central Government and £5 10s. from local authorities. When the Tory Government came into power they put up the interest rates. For purely party political purposes they raised the subsidy in order to mitigate the effects of the increases in rents which they thought the rise in the interest rate was likely to cause. They raised it from £16 10s. and £5 10s. to £26 14s. and £8 18s., respectively, making a total of £35 12s. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot get away from the fact that the increased expenditure in subsidies is the direct result of the Government's policy of increasing the interest rate.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: We got more houses.
  Mr. Lindgren: If we turn to the question of housing standards we find that the same thing is true. Under the Tory Governments of the inter-war years the standards of council house building were deplorably low. There was jerry-building, a low standard of room space and a low standard of fitments. The standard was so low that when the music hall comedians became tired of flogging the joke about their mothers-in-law they turned to the subject of the council house. They said that you could hear the woman next door change her mind, and that if you drove a nail through the wall you could hang a picture on either side.

  819
  Jerry-building went on not only in respect of council houses but also in respect of houses built for private ownership. That is what went on during the inter-war years. I am glad that hon. Members opposite have not challenged that fact.
  Mr. Powell: The hon. Member may recall that in order to qualify for a subsidy under the Wheatley Act of the Labour Government, local authorities had to build to the Tudor Walters standard.
  Mr. Lindgren: Under the Wheatley Act of 1924 we built the best council houses of all those built during the interwar years, and to the best subsidy standards. When the Tories came to power after the defeat of the minority Labour Government of 1923 and 1924 they reduced the Wheatley standards in 1927 and abolished them altogether under the 1933 Act.
  I will state what the Tories did during the war. [An HON. MEMBER: "We were fighting."] They were not the only people who were fighting. During the inter-war years those of us who were in local government were—through local authority associations and our own individual local authorities— leading deputations to various Tory Ministers of Health and pleading with them to increase housing standards. The Tories admitted that that was so during the war. During a war they always get worried. Because of the low social standards they set up the Beveridge Committee, promising an improvement after the war, and in the field of planning we had the Scott, Barlow and Uthwatt Reports.
  In regard to housing, the Coalition Government said, "We know that housing standards before the war were deplorably low," and they accordingly set up a special Committee under the chairmanship of the Earl of Dudley. He and the committee were given terms of reference to inquire into and recommend housing standards for after the war. To give the Earl credit, he and his committee produced a very good Report. It recommended what became known in housing circles as the "Dudley standards." The Coalition Government accepted the Dudley standards and the Minister wrote to local authorities and recommended that they should get ready for post-war housing on the Dudley standards.
  820
  We had a General Election in 1945, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) became Minister of Health. He was not very revolutionary. All that he did was to be trusting. He had taken the Tories at their word, a foolish thing to do.
  Mr. Bevan: I have apologised since.
  Mr. Lindgren: My right hon. Friend said, "The Coalition Government have accepted the Dudley standards. Go ahead and build to those standards." To the eternal credit of my right hon. Friend and of the Labour Government of that day, it can be said that the best local authority houses built in this country were those put up between 1945 and 1951. They are a credit to the local authorities, to the builders, to the building-trade workers and to the tenants living in them.
  What has happened since 1951? Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Benches talk about clearing away the slums that they themselves created 100 years ago. [Laughter.] It is true that they were not here then, but they are still living on the profits from them. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cheap."] It may be cheap, but it is true. Since 1951, those standards have been gradually and persistently reduced year by year, until we arrive at the day when the right hon. Gentleman as Minister of Housing and Local Government is forcing local authorities to build houses, not to the Dudley standards promised during the war, but on standards much lower. Houses are being built today by local authorities under the direction of this Government to standards lower than those to which we were building in 1938, and with a higher density than we had then. The Government are not only bringing about higher rents and lower housing standards for the people, but are increasing housing density.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: The hon. Gentleman is asserting all these things, which I think are untrue. Would he like to give instances of local authorities who are building below standards at the direction of the present Government?
  Mr. Lindgren: I believe the hon. Gentleman sits for the Isle of Thanet. I am often there, because I have family connections—not very well off—in that area. I am prepared to go with him to

  821
  Margate or Ramsgate and to visit houses built from 1946 to 1950, and then houses built in 1953, 1954 and today, and to show him the difference in standards.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: The hon. Gentleman has issued a challenge, which I accept. I will arrange a date and publish it in those towns.
  Mr. Lindgren: I shall be delighted. What I have said applies in any and every constituency. The right hon. Gentleman can come to my constituency, and we will return the visit to his.
  Mr. Arthur Probert: In 1946, when I came back from the Royal Air Force, my first job was as a housing assistant with my previous local authority. In 1946, I went into the field as a representative of the local authority in the construction of houses and estates. From 1946 to 1950 the standard of housing was a credit, especially of the direct-labour houses. From 1950 to 1954, when I came into the House, the standards deteriorated rapidly and were a great concern to architectural assistants and people like myself who were responsible for building.
  Mr. Lindgren: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that first-hand evidence from his personal knowledge in support of what I was stating as a general fact.
  Mr. Gibson: I support my hon. Friend by reminding him that when the "People's House" was first introduced The Times said, in an editorial, that they would be the slums of England in twenty years' time.
  Mr. Lindgren: That is exactly what it said. I was not intending to quote from newspapers but to speak from my own personal knowledge and experience. The Press attacked me as an individual when I was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Local Government and Planning, for stating that the building industry was going the wrong way about tackling the job of house building. Instead of competitions to see who could build the best £1,000 house, I said it ought to inquire first what was needed in a house and build accordingly.
  Mr. Walter Elliot: The hon. Gentleman's speech is very interesting indeed, but do I understand him to be attacking in this bitter
  822
  fashion the Labour Housing Minister who introduced the "People's House"?
  Mr. Lindgren: The right hon. Gentleman is very clever in jumping in with an innuendo which has no basis in fact.
  Mr. Elliot: It is not an innuendo but a direct assault. I am borne out by his hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. Probert), who was so glad to come to his assistance, and who said that it was in 1950 and 1951 that the deterioration in housing began. That was under the Labour Government, and under the Labour Minister of Housing. That is not an innuendo.
  Mr. Lindgren: The right hon. Gentleman is making statements which are contrary to the facts.
  Mr. Elliot: I am merely reminding the hon. Gentleman of what he said.
  Mr. Lindgren: The record will bear out what I said, which was that houses built from 1945 to 1951 were under the Labour Government, and that the deterioration had taken place since 1951. I offered to take the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet on a visit to houses in his constituency built in 1948 and 1949, and then to those that were built in 1953, when deterioration had begun in housing standards.
  Contrary to what the Minister said, the Bill means the end of local authority building for general need. Even in the conditions that existed at the end of 1954, in spite of what the Minister has said about the earnings of people living in local authority houses, rents were reaching a stage at which many applicants on the waiting list could not afford them, as people associated with local authorities know full well. They had to turn down the houses offered to them, so some local authorities established two lists, one for people who could take new houses and the other for people who, because of economic circumstances, had to go into the older, pre-war houses.
  The position is now much worse. The Minister has spoken of the subsidy being reduced from £22, but that is really not the figure. Up to 31st March this year the subsidy was £35 12s.; since 1st April it has been £29 8s., and it is now to be £10. The right hon. Gentleman plays with figures but the fact remains that the difference between £10 and £35 12s. is

  823
  £25 12s., and for all the talk about 2d. and 3d. a week, £25 means 10s. a week. That is plain arithmetic. The increased interest charges which local authorities have to bear mean another 8s. a week. Even at existing interest rates it will cost the tenant of the ordinary villa type house an extra 18s. a week; and if that tenant cannot pay it will have to be paid by someone else.
  The Minister has had the audacity to assert that these people, living in prewar council houses of a low standard of construction—that is now admitted by hon. Members opposite—are to have placed on them the burden of the increased interest charges and reduction of subsidy on house construction now. Therefore, the tenant of the thirty-year-old house, which has a low standard of construction and of fitments, a low standard of siting and density, has to pay an increased rent to meet the interest charges and reduction in subsidy on the houses which the local authority will build in the future. Let the Minister play about with figures as he will, it means an additional 18s. a week on the average council house. As the tenants will not be able to pay, the local authorities will not be able to afford to build.
  That is not only my opinion. The Minister has some responsibility for local authorities. He did not mention a word of what local authorities have said about this subject. I have here a letter which the Urban District Councils' Association sent to him on 11th November last. It is a condemnation of the Bill. On Thursday last, the executive of that Association passed a resolution which, while phrased much more mildly than, perhaps, I would have phrased it, does, in effect, mean exactly what I have said —that it is socially wrong and is the end of local authority building. It asks the Minister to change his policy. I have this letter because I am a vice-president of the Association, but the president, and many of the vice-presidents are Tories. Although we are discussing this Bill, I cannot see one of them in the Chamber. I wonder if it is an absence of convenience? I wonder what they will do at the end of this debate, because we have been asked by the Association to get the Minister to withdraw the Bill.
  What are the Tories to do now? Has not the Minister some responsibility to
  824
  work in co-operation with the local authority associations? I have been associated with local government and with local authority associations for a very long time. I have seen many strongly-worded resolutions and letters, and criticisms of individual items in Clauses, but I have yet to see one so strongly worded and so forthright in its criticism as is this letter. When introducing the Bill, it would have been a little fairer had the right hon. Gentleman told the House that the local authorities were not in favour of it. It is the local authorities which have to do the job.
  The Minister talked about the gentlemen in Whitehall. I do not like Ministers, Parliamentary Secretaries or hon. Members making that reference. Those people are there to carry out the jobs which Governments of the day place upon them, and my experience is that they do it very well indeed.
  Mr. Sandys: I did not invent that phrase.
  Mr. Lindgren: The right hon. Gentleman used it. I do not suppose that there is now very much left that can be original—most things have been said before—but the right hon. Gentleman must take responsibility for using the phrase.
  The House should be informed of what this change means to the people who have to do the work in this field and of their reactions to the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman knows—but he did not tell the House—that the almost-universal reaction of local authorities is against this Measure. I have no knowledge of, and can speak with no authority about the views of the Rural District Councils' Association, but I do know that while the Bill means the end of local authority building in urban areas, its effects in the rural areas will be catastrophic.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to new towns. I have always thought that the Tory Government did not like new towns and wished to do their best to destroy the whole idea. They have certainly brought no more new towns into existence since they assumed office. In view of a recent debate, I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman was a little more kindly disposed to them than was his predecessor, but this Bill will kill new town development altogether. The right

  825
  hon. Gentleman laughs, but that is a fact. He has admitted that rents are high. That is an understatement.
  Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that in the new towns today very many of the tenants are paying a quarter of their basic wage rate in rent and rates, and are only able to keep their heads above water by working overtime and by their wives working also? Those are not good social conditions, and they are conditions which will not always be maintained. Nor am I sure that I wish to see excessive overtime being worked. It is not an ideal condition when a man not only has to work excessive overtime himself but finds that his wife has to go out to work also—but it is a condition which prevailed even at the end of 1954.
  At first sight, this Bill seems rather fairer to the new towns—but is it? The Minister throughout has been talking about the conditions obtaining from April of this year, but at 31st March the subsidy in the new towns was £35 12s.; since 1st April it has been £29 8s., and now it is perhaps £32—£24, plus £8 extra in respect of persons from housing lists in London. It is true that the new towns are to get £2 12s. more than the April figure, but on the 31st March figure they will get £3 12s. less.
  The figure is even more than that. Over the last twelve months, the rise in the interest rates to local authorities has meant that rents have increased by over 8s. a week. Though the Minister gives the new towns is. a week in the extra subsidy compared with April, the total is £3 12s. less than the 31st March figure,. and then comes the extra 8s. in rent due to interest rates, which means that these already excessive rents are to go up by 7s. a week, a figure which is crippling to ordinary tenants in the new towns.
  Mr. J. Silverman: Will my hon. Friend deal with this point? The Minister has introduced, in Clause 9, a provision in which he asks the exporting local authorities to give back £4 of the subsidy. At any rate, the Bill provides that he may do so, and one does not know to what extent he will do it, but it means that the annual subsidy will be decreased by £2.
  Mr. Lindgren: Yes, but I have been rather hard on the right hon. Gentleman once or twice, and I want to be fair to
  826
  him now. The figure of £2 is the result of discussions between the local authority associations and the exporting authorities, and there was a readjustment of the arrangement under which many of them used to pay the full amount of £8 for every person; now it is being cut to £4.
  Mr. Silverman: But the net Government subsidy does come down.
  Mr. Lindgren: Yes, it will come down, but I was looking at what the new towns are likely to get, and that is the position.
  Now, I turn to the expanding towns, where the position is even worse. I do not know if I can describe anything as worse than being killed, and I have already said that the new towns will be killed by this proposal. The Government pay lip-service to the dispersal of what the planners call overspill under the Town Development Act. This Bill, together with Government policy on interest rates and alterations of the arrangements for borrowing, means that the already difficult position in which an exporting authority is placed in coming to an agreement with a receiving authority will be made almost impossible.
  In an expanding town, it is not only a question of securing land and building houses, making roads and providing street lighting. There is also the question of the expansion of other services in the area—the provision of additional water facilities, sewerage schemes, parks and open spaces, and all those things which the population will need if the town is to be expanded and receive people from some other area.
  In the provision of these additional services, the local authority has to be well ahead of the receipt of the additional population. It means capital expenditure well before the local authority receives the benefit of any increased rateable value with which to meet some of the cost. The increased interest charges will fall not only on the houses but on all capital works which local authorities undertake, making expansion such a proposition that every local authority which has even considered the possibility of accepting overspill and coming within the Town Development Act will have second thoughts.
  It will not only be the large towns, which are already reasonably large, that will be affected. I do not suppose it will make a great deal of difference to

  827
  Swindon, although that authority will be hit fairly hard, but the authorities of the smaller urban districts of 10,000, 15,000 or 20,000 people, which contemplate another 5,000 or 10,000 people from London, just cannot face having to carry the increased rate charges and the extra interest charges ahead of the increased rateable value.
  Therefore, it seems to me that under the Bill we shall get little, if any, housing for the new towns, and little or no development in the new and expanding towns. The Minister says that he wants to concentrate on slum clearance, and that will mean that our cities will perhaps concentrate on slum clearance, while in the meantime other problems are being created.
  I should like to deal with other parts of the Bill, but in fairness to other hon. Members who wish to speak, I will refrain from doing so. I conclude on this note, and I hope that the Minister will listen. Many of us on this side of the House are trade unionists. We still have some say in the policies which are adopted by our trade unions. In spite of the viciousness of the present Government in making attacks on the living standards of the people of this country, many of us have counselled inside the trade unions that there should be restraint in the making of wage claims. We have always said that no one really derives any advantage from the spiral which comes from wages chasing prices, and we have tried to get that policy adopted inside some of our trade unions.
  We have also tried to impress upon the Government the necessity of stabilising prices if wages are to be held equally in check. Some of us, because we have taken this attitude in spite of the attitude of the Government, have been dubbed as Right wing. It has not been easy to hold the position, and what little ground we had under our feet before has now been taken right away by the right hon. Gentleman. For what happens in the industrial field now the responsibility is not on those of us in the trade union movement. It lies with the Government and with the right hon. Gentleman, who is the willing instrument of that Government. The responsibility will be his, and it will be no use for him to look to the trade unions to get him out of the mess.
  5.57 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Pannell: In rising to address the House for the first time, I ask for the indulgence which is usually extended on such occasions, and I will try to match that courtesy by the avoidance of anything controversial. That may be difficult in this instance, but I trust that I shall impose no undue strain on the generosity and forbearance of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen.
  As one whose election reversed the representation of Kirkdale, I should first like to pay my tribute to my predecessor, who served the constituency in this House for ten years, and during that period worked assiduously on behalf of his constituents. Although at times he expressed views to which I could not subscribe, I am the first to recognise the honesty and sincerity of his motives.
  In making my modest contribution to this debate, I will try to confine myself to facts and to relate those facts to the constituency which I represent. Kirkdale is not a municipal entity, but a section of Liverpool, controlled by the city council. It is for the most part a congested residential area, and it contains much property scheduled for slum clearance. The inhabitants of these clearance areas have had a raw deal up to now, as the fact that they are living in dwellings of sub-standard quality has not of itself qualified them for consideration under the city's housing programme. The houses for the most part have gone to others, whose claims on general grounds have been considered more pressing, and the claims of those living in slum areas have been postponed pending the formulation of a slum clearance scheme.
  It is most gratifying that that problem is now being tackled, and half of Liverpool's building programme will in future be devoted to slum clearance. From that point of view, this Bill is to be distinctly welcomed, for not only are the subsidies maintained for houses built under slum clearance schemes, but they are substantially increased for multi-storeyed flats on cheaper sites, which must be a feature of Liverpool's future programme.
  This Bill will not operate evenly over the whole country, and the House may find it of interest to know how it will affect Liverpool as perhaps indicative of its impact on other large municipalities of the same character. It has been

  829
  assumed in some quarters that the whole burden of the increased interest rates and the reduction in subsidy will fall on houses which are built in the future. I submit that that would be quite indefensible. The essence of the matter is that there should be a spread of the burden over all the houses owned by the municipality. I hope I am not entering the field of controversy if I support the figures given by my right hon. Friend. Indeed, I must go a little further and give figures even more favourable than those which he mentioned.
  In Liverpool, the effect of the reduction of subsidy will be very slight if the spread is made. Liverpool Corporation owns 60,000 houses and has a building programme at the moment running at 3,000 houses a year. At least half of those 3,000 houses will continue to qualify for subsidy and only 1,500, at the most, will lose the subsidy. If that loss of subsidy is spread over the whole of Liverpool's housing pool, the average increase in rents will be l½d. per week in the first year and 7½d. at the end of five years.
  The position is even better than that, for Liverpool. like all prudent corporations, has budgeted well in advance for its housing requirements, and for a long time to come, probably two years, the bulk of its housing will continue to receive subsidies at the old rate. The effect of the reduction of subsidy in Liverpool will therefore be slight indeed.
  Interest rates form a relevant subject. It is not mentioned in the Bill, but as on previous occasions it has been the custom to increase the subsidies to reflect any rise in the interest rates, and as on this occasion the subsidy has been reduced, I think it is pertinent to mention the subject. It has been suggested—and I do not dispute the figure—that the increase in interest rates this year entails a rise in the cost of a house of £17 per annum. In Liverpool that would affect the whole building programme of 3,000 houses a year, but if the spread were made it would mean that the average increase in rent of Corporation houses in Liverpool would be 4d. a week in the first year and Is. 8d. a week at the end of five years.
  It is therefore fair to say that the effect of the increased interest rates and the reduction in subsidy for Liverpool need not be more than 2s. 6d. per week per
  830
  house at the end of five years and only 6d. a week immediately. Even if all the subsidies were abolished except those for slum clearance, the average further increase in rents for the first year would be only 2d. per week and 10d. per week at the end of five years. The effect of the Bill on Liverpool will therefore be very slight, and if, as I think, it will encourage slum clearance it is to be welcomed.
  There has been a request in some quarters to introduce differential rent schemes. I do not want to go into the merits or demerits of such a suggestion this evening, except to say that I can foresee certain difficulties in its application. I am more concerned with the removal of some of the differentials which at present exist.
  Of Liverpool's 60,000 houses, over 40,000 were built between the wars. They are not substantially of a lower standard than those being built today. The majority of them are in mature estates conveniently placed near the centre of the city and the rents are about 14s. a week, including rates. I ask hon. Members to contrast that with the new houses being built on the raw estates on the outskirts of the city. These are being rented at 28s. a week after having attracted the full benefit of the subsidy. Not only have the tenants of these houses in the new estates to pay the higher rents, but in many cases they also have to incur considerable extra expenditure to get to and from their places of work. Surely, in the name of justice and common sense, there should be some equalisation of those rents, raising them for older houses and reducing them for new houses.
  If that were done there would be no need for a means test except in the very limited number of cases of people who plead that they could not afford any increase at all. On the other hand, there would be an overdue. measure of relief for those people who in many cases today find it extremely difficult to pay the high rents charged for the new houses.
  Although I said that the effect of the Bill and even of the higher interest rates will not be onerous in Liverpool, provided the burden is spread, I should not like the House to assume that the housing situation in Liverpool is good. From the recent Command Paper 9593, it will be seen that Liverpool has the largest

  831
  proportion of unfit houses of any city in the country. It is 43 per cent. of all permanent houses, compared with 33 per cent. in Manchester and 16 per cent. in Birmingham.
  I express the hope that my right hon. Friend will use the full discretion given to him in the Bill and, in particular, under Clause 5, and will make every possible concession to Liverpool so that the city can continue its efforts to provide decent housing accommodation for its long-suffering inhabitants.
  I am most grateful to the House for its indulgence.
  6.7 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Henderson: I am sure that it is the desire of the House that I should tender to the hon. Member for Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) our heartiest congratulations on the speech he has just delivered. I understand that the hon. Member has had a distinguished career in West Africa. I am sure he will serve his constituents with the same zeal as that which he showed there. He also has a family connection with a respected Member who sits on this side of the House—respected but by no means silent—and I am sure that he will seek to attain the family standards as they have already been established.
  The provisions of the Bill must, I think, be examined against the background of the general housing problem which confronts the nation today. In spite of the fact that before the war 1¼ million council houses were erected, and since the war 1½ million more houses have been erected, it would not be an exaggeration to say that at least one-tenth of our population, about five million of our fellow citizens, are living today in slum conditions and conditions of overcrowding, and that hundreds of our young married couples have not yet secured their own homes. That is the background against which we must look when we examine the Bill.
  The Command Paper has made it clear that these conditions exist. I doubt whether any hon. Member—certainly none on this side of the House—would disagree with me when I say that what used to be called the submerged one-tenth has now become the one-tenth of the population living in housing conditions which are a disgrace to our British way
  832
  of life. These conditions lend the greatest urgency to, and make the greatest importance of, housing. The Command Paper indicates that there are 847,000 houses which have been, or should be, the subject of slum clearance orders. In the Borough of Tipton in my constituency 12 per cent. of the houses have been made subject to slum clearance orders.
  As I said a moment or two ago, I doubt whether anyone would differ from me when I suggest that possibly two million or three million fellow citizens of ours are living in terrible conditions of overcrowding. During the Recess I made a personal investigation with the chairman of the Tipton housing committee into the housing conditions of the borough. To hon. Friends who know much more about housing than I do, I would say that I have been impelled to intervene in this debate because of some of the facts I discovered in that investigation. I am trying to establish the existence, the urgency, and the importance of the national housing situation today.
  I am well aware that the Bill—somewhat like the curate's egg—is good in parts. In providing subsidies for slum clearance houses it meets with my warmest support, but other parts are not so good. In one street I found eight houses for which there were only two toilets, and the only water supply available was from two taps in an outside yard. Each of those houses was very damp. In another street there were five houses with no water supply. The hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Sir A. Hudson) may think this is amusing, but I think it is shocking, and I hope that we shall face this problem.
  Mr. Lewis: My right hon. and learned Friend may remember that the Minister introduced a Bill in this House a short time ago and said that he would put right all these problems by giving landlords the right to increase rents and carry out repairs and decorations. Can my right hon. and learned Friend say how far private landlords have proceeded under that Bill?
  Mr. Henderson: I am not in a position to say that, but I am in a position to tell the House what I saw in August and September, and that I am doing. The housewives of the five houses I have mentioned have to cross the road to backyards of houses on the opposite side of

  833
  the road in order to gain a water supply. Every time a young housewife wants to wash napkins or to boil water to make a cup of tea she has to go out—in all types of weather—to get water from those taps on the other side of the road. The sanitation is extremely primitive. Each of these five houses has one room upstairs and one downstairs. In one of the houses the husband, wife and four children slept in one room. The average room in a working-class house is not very large, and six people in one room is shocking. These are not isolated cases I am giving to the House. I can adduce details of other groups of houses in my constituency which are in a similar condition.
  Overcrowding is equally disturbing. I find it difficult to understand why the Government are not prepared to subsidise the rehousing of families living in overcrowded conditions as they are prepared to subsidise in the case of families living in slum conditions. From the social point of view, from the point of view of health, happiness, comfort and—even more important—of morality, it is just as urgent and important to get rid of bad housing conditions whether they are due to overcrowding or to living in houses which are structurally unfit for habitation. I speak from personal observation in my constituency. In one house of three bedrooms, one bedroom was occupied by the father and mother, in another bedroom four sons aged 30, 28, 26 and 20 slept, and in the third there were a married daughter and three children. The son-in-law lives in a hostel.
  In another case the house has one bedroom occupied by the father, the mother and five children and in a third case, a house with two bedrooms, one bedroom is occupied by the husband and wife and the other by two boys, aged 14 and 18, and two girls, aged 16 and 17. These conditions, which I am sure we agree are deplorable, only add point to the observations I have made—which I hope will receive consideration by the right hon. Gentleman—about the relationship between slum conditions and overcrowding conditions.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) knows this is true because he knows the district. The picture I have presented is not surprising when it is realised that 12 per cent. of
  834
  the houses in Tipton are unfit and 8 per cent. are more than 100 years old. The trouble is that during the past-war period, from 1945 to 1954, it has been possible to deal only with unfit houses at an average rate of 30 per annum. The reason is that while 1,360 houses have been erected, the general needs of the housing community—because of the operation of the housing freeze—have compelled the local authority to concentrate on meeting the needs of those on the waiting list rather than the needs of those in slum and overcrowded conditions.
  In the other borough in my constituency, Rowley Regis, 1,605 houses have been built since 1945, but the local authority is still meeting the needs of those who registered prior to 1945. The three problems are slum clearance, overcrowding conditions and the general waiting list. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has any information as to the total on various waiting lists throughout the country. If my constituency is any indication, with 3,800 on the two waiting lists, I imagine that the number for the country must run to well over 1 million.
  That brings me to the Bill. Speaking for myself, I am satisfied with the provisions dealing with slum clearance. My criticism of the Bill is that it leaves the other two problems untouched. Indeed, it seems almost a retrograde step and one which places shackles upon the local authorities in dealing with the problems of overcrowding and with those on the waiting lists.
  I was at a loss to understand the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman about the effect which the increases in the Bank Rate and the reduction in the subsidies are likely to have on the rents of houses built in the future within the terms of this Bill under slum clearance proposals. Figures have been supplied to me by my local authority from which it appears to me that after February, 1952, when the Bank Rate went up to 4¼ per cent., and the subsidy was £35 12s. there was an increase of ls. in the weekly rental. Following the reduction in the subsidy last April from £35 12s. to £29 8s., there was a further increase of 6s. 5d. from September, 1955, by which time, of course, the Bank Rate had gone up to 5 per cent. This makes since February, 1952, a cumulative increase of 7s. 5d.
  Mr. Powell: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman mean that those increases have actually taken place?
  Mr. Henderson: No, I am not saying that, unless the increase in commitments is dealt with by an increase of rent spread over existing tenancies. I have a third figure to give the House. In April, 1956, assuming that the interest rate remains at 5 per cent. and the subsidy goes down to £10, as I understand it will do in the next eighteen months, the increase in the weekly rent will be 7s. 6d., so that there will be a difference in the cumulative increase between February, 1952, for a house existing in that year, as against the house that may be erected in 1956 or 1957, of about 14s. 11d. a week. I do not know whether those figures would be accepted by the Minister?
  Mr. Lindgren: They are on the low side, if anything.
  Mr. Henderson: They may be on the low side, but it will be a serious problem for the local authorities.
  Mr. Sandys: I want to be clear, and my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has asked a question which deserves an answer. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that the rents will be that much more. Does he mean that, or does he mean that if the increased costs were all placed on the new houses, this would theoretically result in an increase of rent of that amount? Does he not know that the local authorities would not consider dealing with it in that way?
  Mr. Henderson: It may be that some local authorities will deal with it by differential rents.
  Mr. Sandys: It is a theoretical figure then?
  Mr. Henderson: Yes, it must be theoretical, because the houses which will receive the £10 subsidy have not yet been built. It can only be dealt with theoretically by the right hon. Gentleman, by myself, or by anyone else at the present moment.
  I do not know what may be the experience of other hon. Members, but in the advice bureaux I have held during the past three years I found that nine out of ten of the constituents who came
  836
  to see me were concerned with housing troubles. In almost every case they held the local authority responsible for not being able to remove their frustration at the inability to meet their housing needs. Local authorities have therefore been a buffer between the Government—indeed, Parliament—on the one side and, on the other, the frustrated citizens of the community seeking and not receiving the houses they need in order to lead decent lives, excepting, of course, those who were lucky enough to be at the top of the waiting list.
  While it is true that the right hon. Gentleman has now removed the system of allocation for slum clearance schemes, it cannot be repeated too often or made too clear that the responsibility for, say, my local authority's being able to build only 150 houses a year cannot be placed on them because they did not desire to build more, but because that was the quota which they were given by the Ministry working by means of a national pool. Now the allocation has been removed and they are free to build any number of houses. Again, however, I a m afraid this will be somewhat theoretical because of the increase in the Bank Rate and the reduction in the subsidy. So whilst I welcome the provisions of the Bill dealing with slums, I hope that on this side of the House we shall maintain our opposition to all the provisions centring around the reduction of subsidies for other types of houses.
  6.27 p.m.
  Sir Austin Hudson: The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) mentioned that his constituents blame the local council for their housing needs, but that is scarcely surprising, as Parliament has put the provision of houses and their allocation fairly and squarely on to local councils. Of course, I only know London and the blame, if blame there is, is always put either on the London County Council or on the borough council.
  Mr. Lewis: Or on a Member of Parliament.
  Sir A. Hudson: And on the Member of Parliament. I always explain to them that while I will use what influence and what persuasion I can on those two authorities, I have no means of making them alter their decisions.
  Mr. Lewis: I think the hon. Gentleman misunderstood me. I was not suggesting that he needed to explain to us that he has no responsibility, but is it not a fact that nine out of ten of the people who are hard-pressed really believe that they have only to see their Member of Parliament in order to get a house, and that, if they cannot do so, say that the Member is at fault?
  Sir A. Hudson: That happens to all of us. I also know that often their grievance is that somebody else not so badly off as themselves has got a house and that there is something unfair about it. I have never found any unfairness in my own borough council or in the London County Council.
  Turning to the Bill, the right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned, also, the question of overcrowding, on which during the Committee stage we may be able to persuade the Minister to go a little further. In my own part of Lewisham I have noticed this peculiar thing, namely, that at the last Election the electorate had dropped although the number of houses in the constituency was greater. This seems to show that overcrowding in that part of London is being mitigated to some degree.
  I thought that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) was a little hard in his comment on the building of houses either by the local authorities or, as he said, by the Government. Not all the houses built between the wars were of a very bad standard. In the constituency of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) there are enormous housing estates that were built between the wars, and I do not think he will agree that they are all of very bad construction. Nor are all the houses and flats which have been built since the war all too small.
  I cannot agree that it was only at the time when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) was Minister that better type houses were built. We queried that statement, because most of us remember what is still called the "Dalton house," named after the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), who agreed, in order to get more houses built, that a lesser standard should be allowed. I do not agree that that
  838
  standard was such that houses built to it can be called rabbit hutches and such names as that, and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman would agree either, as he was the instigator of the change.
  Mr. A. Blenkinsop: Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that what my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) did was to circularise the local authorities to let them know about the existence of those different plans, and to suggest that, if they wished to do so, they could experiment with them?
  Sir A. Hudson: I agree. I think the hon. Member was present when the hon. Member for Wellingborough was speaking, and he will remember that the hon. Member for Wellingborough blamed the Conservative Party for those houses as though they were unspeakable things with which his side would have nothing to do. I do not think they are bad houses, and both sides are responsible for them.
  Mr. Mitchison: The hon. Gentleman will, I hope, agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) was attributing the urge to adopt them not to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), but to the first Minister responsible for housing in the Tory Government.
  Sir A. Hudson: If they were known as the "Dalton houses"—if I may use that expression here—they were under his aegis. I do not mind upholding these houses, because I do not think they were at all bad houses, and I think that we were able at that time to have more houses built by building houses of that sort. In my view, that was a good thing.
  It has been pointed out, too, that the amount of subsidy now required has gone up not only because of the rates of interest but also because of the deliberate policy of the Government of building more houses, building 300,000 or more as against 200,000. That has put up the subsidies. I do not mind what arguments hon. Members opposite use. I remain quite sure that people were glad those extra 100,000 houses were built. When I say "houses" I mean houses and flats.
  There is no magic in the Exchequer figure for subsidy. As has been pointed

  839
  out by previous speakers, it has varied very largely in recent years. It is now £22 1s.; it was £26 14s. in 1952; it was £16 10s. in 1946. I cannot help thinking that if the party opposite had got back into Government at the last General Election right hon. Gentlemen opposite would have been faced with this question of the housing subsidy. It could not remain for ever at the present figure.
  What we have to consider is whether what my right hon. Friend is doing is the right thing to do, or whether it will slow down the rate of housing. If it were to put a stop altogether to housing, I think a great number of hon. Members on this side of the House, who will certainly support the Bill as it is, would have grave doubts about doing so. However, as I hope to show, I do not think it will do anything of the kind.
  We want, if we can, to be fair to everybody and also to see that in altering these subsidies we do not go too fast; that is to say, that the £10 will not be done away with within, say, one year without our seeing exactly what the result is of the alterations in the different subsidy figures. The hon. Member for Wellingborough said that the urban district councils were against the Bill. Is not any local authority against having its Exchequer grant cut? That is human nature, and I cannot see how any local authority could say enthusiastically to a Minister, "Take away all the subsidy. The more subsidy you take away the better pleased we shall be."
  Mr. A. Evans: The hon. Gentleman will know that on this occasion the Minister met the representatives of the local authority associations and, in effect, told them what he proposed to do and that, although he knew they would not like it, they would have to accept it. When, previously, there have been reviews of the housing subsidies the Minister has managed to get some basis of agreement with the associations of the local authorities.
  Sir A. Hudson: I am a little surprised that they agreed to the lower subsidies—unless there was some very good reason for it. What I meant was that it is not to me surprising if a local authority objects to having its Exchequer contribution cut.
  840
  The object of subsidies is twofold: first, to build a certain number of houses to be let at rents within the reach of the lower paid workers; and, secondly, to encourage the local authorities to build. In my view, the first of the objects, to build houses for the lower-paid workers, has become quite out of perspective. I should say that more than half the council houses are now occupied by people whose incomes are far beyond the incomes of those for whom the houses were originally built. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
  When that statement was made by my right hon. Friend he was asked for proof. In Lewisham, as I shall show later, the council has adopted differential rents. That was done at the beginning of the year, before either the London County Council election or the General Election. It was canvassed rather thoroughly in both senses of the word, and I know something of what the tenants think of differential rents, and I know something also about the occupiers of the houses. The trouble is not that they have suddenly become enormously rich. It is that they had young children when they first occupied their houses, and now the children have grown up and are workers themselves. Therefore, large incomes are coming into those homes, and those families are spending them, quite properly, as other people with larger incomes would do.
  I am sure that some system of differential rents is right. The scheme in Lewisham is this. It is to pay an unsubsidised rent unless the tenant can prove that it cannot be afforded. That system has been negotiated with the tenants. I cannot say that they accept it. They would much rather go on in the old way. However, I think that, on the whole, it is reasonable.
  When the system was first brought in there was a loud outcry from all the tenants of the council houses. There was a demonstration at the town hall and a march with banners round the town hall. Afterwards, in the local paper, a gentleman complained that he was entirely unable to get to his house, which was in the neighbourhood, because of the motor cars of the people who lived in the council houses and who were demonstrating that they were too poor

  841
  to pay proper rents. That man, obviously, was on the other side, but his letter does help to show that there are some who can pay the differential rent.
  Mr. David Weitzman: Is a motor car proof that a man is wealthy? What sort of motor cars were they?
  Mr. W. T. Williams: Would not the hon. Member agree that this kind of argument, from the general to the particular, which is so frequently bandied across the Floor of the House, is not only a dangerous one but a very foolish one? The motor cars which he mentioned may have belonged to anyone. In any case, it is not really relevant to the major discussion. Nobody any longer believes that the greater majority of the working people, who are also the greater majority of tenants, are, in fact, bloated capitalists who ride about in Rolls-Royce cars. It is so silly.
  Sir A. Hudson: I do not think it is silly. These houses were built for the poorer people. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, they were. The subsidy was given because they were not able to pay the rents. Some of these poorer people are still living in most unsuitable places. They cannot get houses because they are occupied by more wealthy people. The borough council knows now how many people have asked for a rebate and how many have not, and how many people have moved out of council houses on their own account because they realise that they are not now getting subsidised rents.
  Mr. Williams: It seems to me that much of our argument is on emotive basis. The hon. Member is making an interesting speech. In saying that, I do not mean to be patronising, because I appreciate the point which he is making, but why does he spoil his speech, as so many hon. Members opposite do spoil their speeches, by quoting examples of this kind which, at best, are irrelevant and, at the worst, are impertinent?
  Sir A. Hudson: I entirely disagree. I represent a borough which has adopted differential rents and I say, and have said for some time, that people should not take subsidised rents if they can afford to do without the subsidy. The council has adopted a differential rent system. It
  842
  has been proved that in these houses there are some people who do not really require the subsidy. I think that that shows that differential rents are probably the answer to the problem. I understand, too, that it has been possible to a certain extent, in Lewisham, to lower some people's rents because of the higher rents paid by the people who have not claimed the rebate.
  I hope that, if the Minister intends to recommend this scheme to all local authorities, he will send to them some form of model clause. The Minister said that he had had a number of examples from different boroughs as to how they are doing this thing, and I believe that it would be of advantage to boroughs to know about them, so that they can then make up their minds whether they wish to do it themselves.
  I was told by some of the tenants in these dwellings who came to see me on Friday that there are certain parts of the Lewisham scheme which they do not like. Incidentally, they do not like the scheme at all in so far as it puts up their rents. They told me—I do not know how true it is—that it made no difference in the rents whether there was a family or not, because the borough council took into account the gross income only. Of course, a family would receive the family allowances, but, at the same time, they would have many more expenses than the man and wife with no family. All these things ought to be taken into account.
  On the whole, I do not think that I would go back on my opinion on differential rents. I do not think that it has had any bad effect in Lewisham. Perhaps I might say to my hon. Friends behind me that so far as electoral disadvantage in the L.C.C. elections and the General Election are concerned, it did not seem to me to make a great deal of difference to those who recommended it.
  I want to say a word about encouraging building. I am certain that we have to concentrate on slum clearance. As my constituency is in London, I know little about the new towns and the overspill, both of which have been mentioned earlier in the debate. I cannot think that this will make a great deal of difference in London. When constituents come to me and say, "You must get me a house," I always have to give the reply that the vast part of the council housing programmes has been earmarked for those

  843
  cleared from the slums. In Lewisham, we have a big slum clearance scheme. The same thing is happening with the L.C.C. There will be no alteration in the subsidies. In fact, they are to be slightly increased for slum clearance and rehousing the slum tenants. I hope that it may speed this very necessary work by the local authorities. The people who come to see us are very often slum dwellers themselves, and they may get rehoused in this way.
  Mr. Mitchison: May I correct the hon. Gentleman on one point? I do not think that the subsidy for slum clearance purposes is being put up. It is merely being maintained.
  Sir A. Hudson: The hon. and learned Gentleman is perfectly right. I see on looking at the Explanatory and Financial Memoranda that it is exactly the same, £21 1s. It is being maintained. Lewisham is one of those places which was very badly bombed and, therefore, much more building than in some other places has to be done there. I hope that that will be borne in mind by the Minister when he is considering using Clause 5. The hope has been expressed to me that since we have adopted differential rents and, naturally, they have gone up fairly high, this Bill will not put them up again. We hope that it will not be necessary to do so.
  My next point concerns pre-fabs. We have a vast number because of the bombing. Are they to count as unsatisfactory temporary housing accommodation? I think that they ought to. Their usefulness is coming to an end, and some of them are very little better than camps. If they are not to count, perhaps the matter could be discussed in Committee.
  I have one other matter to put forward which is a small and local one. We have a case where the Minister is re-zoning an area for housing which had been designated in the Greater London plan for light industry. We all thought that it was a bad place for houses. It is between three railway lines and one is bound to have trains going past almost continuously. I hope that the Minister will consider regarding this as a special area for Government assistance under Clause 5 or Clause 6 of the Bill if he still feels that houses or flats should be built there.
  844
  Most of us hope that we shall obtain something from Clause 5, but I am not certain what was in the Minister's mind when the Clause was drafted. My fears are that we might be going too fast and might be unfair to someone, but I received yesterday a paper from the London County Council, copies of which have also been sent to other hon. Members, stating that, as far as the Council could work out, at least half the dwellings to be completed in the 1956–61 programme come under the existing subsidy. The Council felt that there would be no change at all.
  The period 1956–61 is some way off and, therefore, it gives me some cause to hope that the Bill will not operate too quickly. The operation of the Bill will need to be looked at very carefully.
  Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: Carefully watched.
  Sir A. Hudson: The housing subsidies must be examined sooner or later. If we can do that and take a large part of this expenditure off the shoulders of the Exchequer without cutting down the number of houses—and I think that that can be done—the Bill will have been well worth while.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mrs. Freda Corbet: I believe that the House is of the unanimous opinion that the provision of dwellings for our people is one of the greatest and finest of our social services. It ranks equally perhaps with education as one of the means whereby a worthier generation will be produced. We have heard tributes paid to the influence of good housing on happy family life, and we all know that a happy family life leads to better citizens. We should, therefore, be careful that we do nothing which might inhibit the reaching of this fine objective.
  The Minister's words are intended to comfort and console us, but it is difficult for local authorities, facing their manifold problems, not to feel that they are being placed in a very difficult position indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) have given examples of the kind of housing to be found all over the country. I can add to those examples. We who hold "surgeries" are constantly being

  845
  given examples. The people who used to break my heart before the war were those who asked whether I could help them to find a job. Today, they ask whether I can help them to obtain a house. Somehow or other they imagine that Members of Parliament can direct a local authority to produce a house for them. Their case is, indeed, grievous.
  On the other hand, we are compensated when we see on our housing estates such homes provided for our people as we had never dreamed could be provided for them. It is a joy to see, in Camberwell, housing estates surrounded by trees and grass, and, living in them, people who have come from the northern end of the borough, from the desperate slums and the wretched, noisome conditions among the factories, where they enjoyed no rest. To see these people rehoused is delightful. We are eager that all our people shall be so housed, and we believe that it would be false economy to do anything that would prevent us so rehousing them.
  The London County Council, of which I am a member, is greatly perturbed about the Bill. It is estimated already that, with the rising cost of interest rates and the increased cost of building, at the end of five years the Council will have been faced with nearly £1 million extra cost in the course of a year. When the new subsidies come into operation—and it is agreed that they will not affect the position for about eighteen months—there will be the additional burden of £12 in respect of each house provided for slum clearance, and £24 in respect of houses provided for general need.
  The London County Council has a large pool of houses, many of them dating back to the beginning of the century. Some of them were built in the years between the wars. The rest have been built since. They vary in their standards and amenities according to the periods in which they were built. We have been inhibited from raising the rents of the pre-1914 dwellings, until the Housing Rent and Repairs Act allowed us to do so, but even so—and we have just completed a review of rents—we have felt it impossible to ask for very substantially increased rents for these pre-1914 dwellings.
  846
  The dwellings are deficient in every respect. Adjoining my own house there is a London County Council estate which appears to the eye exceedingly attractive, with its neat arrangement and the careful maintenance of the privet hedges, which are clipped regularly by the staff, but the houses give one a very different impression when one goes inside them. They are hardly bigger than dolls' houses. Although there are five rooms, each is so small, with the entrance directly into the sitting room, and are so built in the old, economical style that they are not fit for the upbringing of a family.
  Let me assure hon. Members who have had the advantage of being brought up with plenty of space around them that it is a wearying thing for the housewife and mother, whose task, goodness knows, is difficult and exacting enough, to be cramped, with no room in which to move, always falling over things, and having to pull out every item of furniture in order to be able to clean the house. The cramped old houses of days gone by will not allow us to average out rents in the way the Minister has suggested. People will go to live in them because they are houses, and houses are in great demand.
  But we have flats into which people cannot be persuaded to transfer, even though they are living in the most unhappy circumstances, because the flats are so inadequate, out of date, so miserable, so drab, without any of the "mod. cons., "as we know them, and which everybody today regards as essential. Strangely enough, I find that people want a bathroom almost more than anything else, except electricity, which they want for their television sets. I do not have a television set, because I do not have time for it, but I see no reason why people should not have television and even motor cars, if they desire to spend their money in that way. It does not mean that they are well off.
  The hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Sir A. Hudson) represents a constituency which is near mine, although it is a more salubrious neighbourhood. His constituents are better off for housing than mine. The Minister's contention that one can average out rents in the way he suggested is false. Local authorities will find it very difficult to do that. London County Council has an enormous

  847
  pool of housing and does find it possible to rehouse people according to their ability to pay rents. There is a graduated rent level which enables the London County Council to house people without having to worry that the rents are beyond their means. We are fairly well satisfied that we can continue to do that and it is far preferable to a differential rent system.
  I had a lot of sympathy for differential rents, but it is essential that people who need a home should be able to have it, even though they cannot afford to pay for it. I do not think that the differential rent system is the best. One of these days a Minister might get to work to think of a way to provide subsidies for children who are rehoused. It has been done in other countries and it is one of the most essential things which we have to do. We must see that there is room for children to grow up.
  The London County Council believes that there are all sorts of disadvantages in differential rents: the administrative difficulty; the dissatisfaction of people living side by side, with the constant accusations that so and so is not disclosing what he is really getting; and there is the difficulty which comes when the grown-up children, who have contributed toward the income that seems to be so enormous to some hon. Members, marry and leave the old folks in the house. A local authority which has been receiving the economic rent from such a family will be faced with having to receive a much smaller rent, because of the reduced circumstances of the old folk. I do not know whether the National Assistance Board will pay the economic rent, or whether the Government will say that the local authority will have to pay it. That is one danger.
  Another is that we shall have in our council houses only those families who cannot afford to pay an economic rent. If people have to pay an economic rent, they will move out and buy their own houses and local authorities are in great danger of finding themselves left with only those tenants to whom rebates have to be granted. What will then happen to the balancing of the accounts? Local authorities must be very careful about that. Since the war our record of full employment has been good. We have juggled with all sorts of manipulations
  848
  which we felt would maintain full employment, but can anybody be absolutely sure that we will always have full employment? What will happen if we have a substantial measure of unemployment, if people have to pay the kind of rents that will have to be charged in this scheme? All those things constitute very great difficulties with differential rents.
  The rent level of our new houses in the London County Council and Camberwell Borough Council areas is already high enough. I find that wives who did not go out to work before they moved to a council house, on moving to the dwelling with the higher rent, have found it necessary to go to work. Many of the high incomes about which we hear so much are the result of the joint incomes of the working husband and the working wife. Today, there are opportunities for employment for women that did not exist before the war.
  On the other hand, I know of a London County Council estate where we put some shops; but we have not been able to let them, for the simple reason that instead of shopping in the central shopping area, which is delightful and beautifully planned—I should love to shop there—housewives have to go to work. Their way to work does not lead them past the shops, so they get their things elsewhere. It is too simple to think that the bulk of council tenants have those large incomes of which we hear so much.
  It is true that the money going into the house may be a joint income of about f15 a week, but I ask hon. Members to remember what that means in terms of pre-war purchasing power. By those standards it is not much more than £5 a week and there are all sorts of other people who have no kind of opportunity to earn joint incomes,such as when there are small, young children and the women cannot go out to work.
  I want to deal with one or two points in the Bill which are worrying the Camberwell Borough Council. One of the problems facing that Council has arisen because the Minister has said that it must derequisition its nearly 5,000 requisitioned houses. It was one of the most heavily bombed boroughs. I am always sending along the sanitary inspector to find out where the roof is leaking. I am sure that roofs are still leaking, because of the effect of war damage. The houses which were requisitioned are in

  849
  a shocking condition. We have to find accommodation for 1,600 families from the requisitioned houses and we hope that that is a matter in which the Minister will exercise his discretion. We should like to know whether the provisions of Clause 5 of the Bill will apply in that matter.
  There are also a number of prefabricated bungalows. We had one in twenty of the requisitioned properties of the country and one in fourteen of all the prefabricated bungalows in the Metropolis, so we find ourselves in a difficult position. We hope that that fact also will be regarded sympathetically. In Camberwell, our housing list stands at 5,900 and new applications continue unabated. Last year, nearly 1,100 new applications were added, including 150 families without any home of their own.
  The London County Council is concerned over a number of other points. An undertaking was given to clear the prefabricated bungalows from open spaces in five years, and some assistance will be needed in that direction, because when the undertaking was given it was thought that there would be the benefit of the present subsidy. There is also the problem of relief of statutory overcrowding. I suppose everyone knows that on practically all the county council and borough council estates there is a great deal of overcrowding, because when the children grow up and get married their parents allow them to continue to live at home. We hope that we shall soon be able to begin to deal with this problem of overcrowding, and that the Minister will not ignore what is a matter of urgency. We need some increase in subsidy and we hope that we shall get the slum clearance subsidy, the higher rate of subsidy, for these things.
  There is also the matter of the "grey land," as it is called, which is needed in connection with slum clearance so that schemes may be rounded off, and there are cases where we must remove people from areas of land and rehouse them. We need the benefit of the subsidy for displacment from land purchased for various purposes under Part V of the 1936 Act. The same applies where we are rehabilitating some obsolescent areas.
  Another point which is disturbing the County Council is the question of the overspill subsidy. We have estimated
  850
  that we must get people out of London in order to provide sufficient space for them and the kind of surroundings in which people can live in comfort. We have planned to get out of the County Council area about 300,000 people. There was a time when we could build outside the area, and we took a number of people out of London to Essex, Hertfordshire, and other places, and houses were built there. We were content for the houses to be built there if Londoners could live there, but we are no longer allowed to do that.
  Our information is that the new towns that were attracted by the bait which the London County Council dangled before them are beginning to be shy. They have had a look at the subsidy. At first, they thought it was all right, but now they are worried, and we are worried, because we are trying to complete the schemes. The Minister has appointed Sir Humphrey Gale—and I congratulate him on that appointment—to co-ordinate the schemes and try to bring them to fruition. But I must warn the Minister—I am sure he has had correspondence on the subject—that small country towns are becoming very worried about whether they dare take on these schemes. They will be faced with difficulties because of two rent levels.
  There will be the Londoners who will be paying a bigger rent for the same accommodation as the natives, or else the local people will have to pay an increased rate at the same level as the foreigners. I hope that the Minister will consider this difficulty and give us an assurance about it. We are beginning to make progress with this problem, and we must not look back because the advantages of an open layout, fresh air, industry on their doorsteps and the elimination of travelling are much to be preferred to life in the City. We must do nothing to hinder the progress of these schemes.
  I wish to ask the Minister whether the overspill subsidy under Clause 3 (3, e) may be applied to development by an exporting authority on the lines of the expanded town development. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that we are only just now in a position to acquire about 95 acres some distance out of London where it is hoped that we

  851
  shall be able to have new town development with a provision for industry, and so on. I hope that the Minister will not tell us that the only way we can secure what we need is to get the rural district council concerned to co-operate with us along town planning lines. As I said, these councils are getting very shy. We hope that the Minister will be able to clarify the position and see that the county council receives the benefit of the overspill subsidy for this scheme.
  I have detained the House far too long already, and I apologise for having done so, but I do not think that we can be too serious about this matter. The lives and happiness of so many people are at stake. I beg the Minister to do what he can, during the Committee stage, to meet the requirements of the local authorities who will have to administer the whole scheme.
  7.20 p.m.
  Miss Joan Vickers: I hope that in what I say I may have the indulgence of the House. Hon. Members will agree that it is often said that eloquence hides a lack of sincerity. Therefore, if I am rather hesitant, I hope it will be realised why that is so. I also crave the indulgence of the House if I err by being contentious, because I received my political education both in Poplar and Devonport.
  As citizens, people enjoy certain rights and privileges but, in return, they are expected to meet certain obligations and responsibilities. The contributive aspect of citizenship is often given less emphasis than the privileges which are obtained through the development of the social services. Few citizens do not desire to take their full share in paying their way according to their ability. On the question of housing, I want especially to emphasise Clause 5, which shows that the Minister is anxious to help people according to their ability.
  I also welcome the new drive in slum clearance areas. In recent years it has been possible to eliminate the evils of poverty and want, and to make a great inroad into the problem of disease, but far too many people are still living in unbelievable squalor. That is a matter of great shame to us. There are, however, many good houses in these slum clearance areas. Often they are privately owned,
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  and I hope that the individuals living in them will be given some consideration when the areas are taken over for clearance. They will only add to our housing lists, and if they were given better compensation they could find their own homes or rent them, whichever they preferred.
  I also want to draw attention to Clause 3 (3, b) in connection with prefabricated houses. We have a great many of these in Plymouth—especially the American type—which are already getting into disrepair. The main problem arises from the fact that many of these houses are placed among terraces of houses, upon former bombed sites. Although they are not slums, they will necessarily have to be pulled down in accordance with reconstruction schemes, and we want to know how the subsidy provisions will be applied in those cases.
  I would draw special attention to the circumstances which exist in Plymouth. This town lost many houses during the blitz, and the reconstruction of the city —and the way in which it has been built up since the war merits congratulation—has displaced another 350 families. There are still 400 families in requisitioned houses. A special difficulty in the case of Plymouth is caused by the extension scheme for Devonport Dockyard, which has displaced another 234 families. Plymouth is a very low-earning area, and although employment is at the highest point it has reached for a very long time, over 1,500 employable people are unemployed. In addition, 1,000 are on National Assistance, out of a population of about 218,000.
  Plymouth City Council is a Socialist council which, since 1949, has exercised a differential rents scheme. We know the incomes of the tenants. It may be of interest to hon. Members to know that 86½ per cent. of the tenants have an income of between £6 and £9, and only 2½ per cent. have an income of more than £12 10s.
  Mr. Gibson: Tell the Minister that.
  Miss Vickers: I am doing so.
  Mr. Gibson: He is not listening.
  Miss Vickers: This is in respect of a total of 49,000 houses. Since the war, in that area we have been able to build

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  under 1,000 private houses. That is because the income group is so low, and has very little capital. Despite that, a differential rents scheme has been operating. It is not a scheme which I very much like, because it means that individuals have to fill in a paper; they have to declare their incomes; they have to state what their son earns, whether they have a lodger, or work overtime, or receive a bonus, in which case they have to pay more.
  I prefer the rent rebate scheme which has already been mentioned, because we all dislike any form of means test. In the case of rent rebate schemes, people have to fill in forms, in which they are simply asked if they can afford to pay a certain rent. If they say "Yes," no questions are asked, and if they say they cannot manage it, they receive a rebate. This is a much fairer way of proceeding, and it is also much more helpful in regard to production, because people will not work overtime if the extra money, instead of helping their families and the country, simply goes to pay the increased rent.
  It would be very convenient to tenants if they had in their rent books a division between rent and rates. Anybody who has a private house has to pay rent and rates to the borough council, and on the top of his bill is shown the various ways in which his money is spent. Far too many people do not realise that they receive their lighting, police protection and part of the education of their children in return for paying rent. If this information were given they would receive a better picture of their position as citizens.
  I hope that Plymouth will receive special consideration. Many hon. Members have worried the Minister for such consideration under Clause 51 (1, a and b). The main reason I am making my plea is that practically all the people in Plymouth who require houses are Government employees. One quarter of the population in Plymouth work in the dockyard or victualling yard. The Admiralty has a great deal of land, about which we naturally do not complain, because the majority of incomes of the town are derived from employment in the dockyard. Quite recently, however, the Admiralty has handed back 17½ acres. That land could have been developed much sooner and become eligible for the subsidies which are now going to cease. Instead of that, we have had to go outside
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  the town and build on much more difficult and hilly land. We have had to do extensive work on the foundations, and this has delayed progress. We have not built nearly as many houses as we should have done otherwise.
  Plymouth has no Exchequer equalisation grant. It has been worked out that under the scheme rents in general will have to be increased by an average of ls. a week, rising by that amount yearly. That means 5s. a week extra by the end of five years in the case of a rent of £1 —an increase of 25 per cent. I gather that that will be the normal increase, but in Plymouth, where the construction of the foundations is very difficult owing to the contours of the land, the increase works out at about 33⅓ per cent.
  The dockyard extension scheme has meant that many more families have been added to the waiting list. Many more people are coming on to our housing list than we have had previously. They are coming at a period when the subsidy will be lowered or when there will be no subsidy at all.
  I hope that it will be possible for the Minister to decide that a case has been stated for Plymouth, and that there is urgent need for more housing accommodation there. It can be provided only by the local authority. Therefore, I ask for particular consideration for Plymouth in the Housing Subsidies Bill. Our citizens, despite their very low earnings, have tried to pull their weight. They have taken great burdens on themselves which should be shared by some of the more wealthy districts.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. David Weitzman: It is always a pleasure to congratulate a maiden speaker. It is a particular pleasure to do so in this case, and I take the opportunity of congratulating and complimenting the hon. Lady the Member for Devonport (Miss Vickers) on her splendid effort this afternoon.
  Perhaps I might pay her two compliments. First, in answer to an interjection, she replied that she was "telling the Minister." I can assure her that it is really something for a maiden speaker to tell a Minister anything. Secondly, if somebody had to be chosen on that side of the House to replace the very fine Member for the hon. Lady's constituency

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  who used to sit on this side of the House, it is the hon. Lady, in whom I am sure we have a very fine representative for the constituency. Having regard not only to the matter of the speech but to the able way in which she delivered it, I can assure her that the House will be very glad to hear her again on many future occasions. May I add that my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) wishes to apologise to the hon. Lady for daring to interrupt her maiden speech.
  I start my speech by referring to the statement made by the Minister on 27th October, 1955, in the House when he pointed out that the basic value of he Exchequer housing subsidy was about £22 per house. That figure was fixed a year ago. The Minister commented upon the fact that rates of interest had risen appreciably. If he had followed the previous practice of adjusting the amount of the subsidy, it would have been raised to more than £30.
  The right hon. Gentleman then, astonishingly, proceeded to say:
  "The Government do not consider that such an increase is either necessary or desirable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1955; Vol. 545, c, 379.]
  I should have thought that the rise in the rates of interest would have led the Minister to the opposite conclusion. It did so formerly, as was recognised by the adjustment of the subsidy rate to meet the difference. This is rather an important point.
  It seems elementary that if an increase in interest rates places a heavy burden on any local authority it is absurd to attempt to meet it by making the burden still heavier. My constituency includes the Metropolitan Borough of Stoke Newington and part of the Metropolitan Borough of Hackney. Both were heavily affected by war damage. Both have pursued energetically since the end of the war the policy of erecting new housing accommodation. Both have tried to assist in solving their housing problems by the use of requisitioned property. Both will suffer very considerably when the provisions of the Requisitioned Houses (Amendment) Act of this year are applied.
  In the case of Hackney, the figures show an entirely different picture to the sort of figures which the Minister gave us
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  today. The figures were supplied to me and can be verified as given by the local authority. The estimated increased loan charges in respect of housing in Hackney, based on the current year's programme, amount to £15,650 in a full year, or to £939,000—nearly £1 million—over the whole loan period. Putting it in another way, for a typical dwelling estimated to cost £2,500, on a 60-year basis, the additional cost for loan charges between February, 1955, and after 6th September this year, is estimated to be 10s. 5d. per week.
  In addition to that, as a direct result of the monetary restrictions of the Government, in respect of certain permanent loans from the Midland Bank, amounting to nearly £250,000 advanced between 1928 and 1936, the bank has given notice to call in those loans, thus causing inconvenience and embarrassment in the borough. It is no wonder, in view of those facts, that some time before the Minister made his statement on 27th October, Hackney Borough Council took the lead in calling upon the Chancellor to institute a policy of cheaper money being made available for borrowing by local authorities, and on the Minister of Housing to promote legislation to increase housing subsidies.
  The borough was clearly justified in putting forward those representations. The reply of the Government is to do the exact opposite in this Bill. Indeed, not only does the Minister announce this much-reduced subsidy of £10 but he has told us that it is only for a year or so. He proposes to abolish the subsidy on future houses altogether. The interruptions made during his speech did not make clear what was going to happen if and when the Minister took that action, but he has taken power to do so in Clause 2 of the Bill, and to do it by Statutory Instrument.
  A local authority anxious to proceed with its housing plans is left in grave doubt. The Minister may suddenly decide in twelve months or eighteen months to abolish subsidies altogether. He should give us at the earliest moment a definite assurance how and when he intends to use these powers and he ought not to take the use of these powers, as he does, under Statutory Instrument as provided by Clause 2, but by a Bill, so that the matter could be fully debated in the House.

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  How can a local authority with a heavy waiting list, ready and anxious—as it should be—to cater for the tenant in need of accommodation, be expected to carry out its task, hard enough as it is, with the position made almost impossible by the provisions of this Bill? From the figures I have got, with which I will not weary the House in detail, in addition to the increased charge of 10s 5d. a week on a typical council flat since last Februgy; in addition to the decrease in the Exchequer contribution at 1st April this year in respect of such a flat of 2s. 10d. per week, I am told that the decrease now proposed by this Bill involves an average increase of 10s. per week. If that is correct it means that, apart from the increased cost of building, the cost of a typical flat will be increased this year by 23s. 3d. a week. In addition, there is the financial embarrassment caused to a council such as the Hackney Borough Council by the bank giving notice to call in very heavy loans.
  This Bill is bad enough, but some of its provisions are so glaringly unjust that even the Minister should hesitate before trying to inflict them on the country. By Clause 1 I understand that the reduced subsidy applies to any tender or estimate accepted after 3rd November last. Presumably, therefore, any housing scheme in respect of which local inquiries have been held, and a compulsory purchase order has been approved by the Minister but a tender has not yet been accepted, will qualify only for the reduced subsidy.
  There are many such cases in my constituency, involving the expenditure of many thousands of pounds. The Minister, no doubt, has particulars of them. The injustice of the Clause is that the local authority has made all its plans on the basis of being given the old subsidy at the higher rate. It is already committed to the acquisition of the sites. In some cases it has actually expended money in acquiring the land or part of the land. By confirming the compulsory purchase order the Minister has approved the scheme. But that local authority is now to be given only the reduced subsidy.
  The result is that the local authority will suffer great difficulties in its financial plans, all of which were made on the basis of receipt of the old, higher subsidy. The Minister may say to the authority, "Well, drop the scheme," but the local
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  authority would not have acted unless the scheme were necessary, nor would the Minister have approved it unless he was so satisfied. Borough councils have actually incurred obligations upon a representation to them that they would get a certain amount of subsidy. The Minister should, in justice, extend the powers contained in Clause 1 to cover that sort of case.
  I turn to Clause 3. In Stoke Newington—and presumably in other local authority areas—schemes for blocks of flats involving three-storey development have been embarked upon. I am told that the density on their schemes demands this. Why should a three-storey block of flats rank for the lower subsidy of £10 while a four-storey block of flats attracts a subsidy of £20? A similar query arises with regard to the subsidy under Clause 6. Where is the logic which draws this immense difference between a three-storey and a four-storey block of flats?
  The position under Clause 5 is also troubling the two local authorities in my constituency. As we know, the Minister has a discretionary power to increase the subsidy where two conditions exist. The first is where there is urgent need for housing accommodation which can be provided only by the local authority; the second is where, unless the Minister exercises his discretion, the provision of housing accommodation will mean an "unreasonably heavy rate burden" or charging "unreasonably high rent."
  During an interruption in his speech the Minister was asked what was meant by the word "unreasonable." The Minister tried to define it, but I should like a definition of the definition that he gave because, quite frankly, it is very difficult to understand what it does mean. It is all very well saying that our Acts of Parliament very often contain the words "reasonable" or "unreasonable." They certainly do, and on many occasions the result has been very considerable and unnecessary litigation. I should like a clear ruling as to the meaning of the word.
  In both Hackney and Stoke Newington there are terrible difficulties attending post-war housing, accentuated by the fact that a great proportion of those now living in requisitioned property were bombed out during the war. Perhaps I may be permitted to give a clear example

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  of what that means. Stoke Newington is a very small borough. In all, it contains approximately 12,000 families. About one-fifth of the total population, or possibly more, is on the waiting list. The difficulties that will arise from the application of the provisions of the Requisitioned Houses and Housing (Amendment) Act of this year cannot yet be appreciated. Obviously, in these boroughs there is urgent need of the type referred to in Clause 5 (1) of this Bill. In fairness, it also looks as though Clause 5 (2) should apply. I should like an assurance from the Minister that these two boroughs would qualify under Clause 5. Further, will that prove to be an empty power inserted into a Bill, or does the Minister seriously intend, in realistic fashion, to use that provision to assist where a case is made out?
  My next concern is with Clause 11. Dwellings are deemed to be provided for the purpose of slum clearance and development in certain cases only, thereby attracting the high subsidy, but there are many properties, not technically declared slum areas, which, though for some reason it has not been possible to declare as slum clearance areas, come very close to them. Those are cases in which the local authorities should, and should be encouraged to, pull the properties down. If I instance what is called the Milton Scheme in Stoke Newington, the Minister will have details of an appropriate case.
  I ask him to look again at the definition in Clause 11, and to consider widening it so as to encourage such work which, technically, is not work in connection with a slum clearance area. In the case of properties which do come within that definition, the Minister will recognise that there are, in the property that is pulled down, a number of persons, say a hundred persons, accommodated. It is possible to accommodate only a smaller number, say eighty, on the new site, but those not rehoused on the site, twenty in this case, must be housed somewhere. It is only fair that the subsidy at the higher rate should be paid in respect of all those who have been rehoused as the result of the demolition of the slum property. Does the Bill cover that? I ask the Minister to look again to ensure that this point is covered, as it should be.
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  I have mentioned these as matters which, in my respectful submission, are of importance. I hope they will be looked into, but, better still, I hope that the House will reject the Bill. It is a bad Bill, an unjust one, and one which will place tremendous burdens upon local authorities doing work of immense importance, and, indeed, I suggest that it will render their task almost impossible of performance.
  7.50 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Gough: I hope that the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) will forgive me if I do not follow him too closely, except that I should like to associate myself with his opening remarks and add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Miss Vickers) on such an excellent maiden speech.
  Like the hon. and learned Gentleman, I want to get hold of the parish pump and talk about the new town in my constituency—the new town of Crawley. I am very sorry that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) is not in his place at the moment, although he was kind enough to tell me that he had been called out for a few minutes, because I would have disputed with him his rather lugubrious view of the future of the new towns. The hon. Gentleman's pessimism is not shared by the Crawley Develop ment Corporation; not at all. I have been discussing matters with them just lately, and certainly, from the chairman of the Corporation downwards, all concerned view the future quite hopefully.
  However, there are one or two points which have arisen recently to which I would refer. My right hon. Friend the Minister knows that recently we have been having a certain amount of rent trouble in Crawley. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North (Sir A. Hudson), we have had our marchers, banners, and so on. This is mainly due —and I give this as the background to the point that I want to put to my right hon. Friend—to the fact that the chairman of the Crawley Development Corporation announced last March that there would undoubtedly have to be some increases in rent fairly soon.
  Of course, quite a number of mathematicians got to work, as, I rather suspect, did some hon. Members on the

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  other side of the House, and made out that they were quite satisfied, having satisfied both themselves and everybody else, months before the event took place, that rents would be going up by 8s. or 9s. a week. It came as rather a shock to some of these people to find, when the rent increases were made, that they amounted to 2s. 3d. per week in the vast majority of cases, and, in the case of a small number of houses, 3s. 3d. Many of my constituents have accepted the increase, although, naturally, nobody accepts an increase very happily, but what does worry them—and it is the concern of everybody in the new town—is the future.
  They want to know that that is not the thin end of the wedge, just the beginning of further rent increases. I have obtained an assurance from the Development Corporation that, subject to the subsidy mentioned in the Bill being what I think it is, and subject, of course, I say frankly, to interest rates not rising further, they can see for the next three years, or for an even longer period of years, the stabilisation of rents on the present basis.
  I read in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the Bill that the Measure introduces new Exchequer subsidies for dwellings provided by local authorities for the special purposes referred to in Clause 3 (3) or provided by development corporations of new towns. It looks, on the face of it, as if it is a simple increase of £2. If I might put it this way, the subsidy in the past has been £22, and then there was the local authority increment, which, I think, amounted to £7 8s., making £29 8s. in all.
  I want to ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary whether he can confirm that I am right in saying that the subsidy will now be £24, and that the local authority increment will remain at £7 8s., and not be reduced. That is a point on which I know there is a great deal of doubt.
  Mr. Gibson: No
  Mr. Gough: The hon. Member is saying "No." I would underline the point in this way. We have listened to many hon. Members who represent London constituencies, some of whose former constituents are now mine. I have also noticed that the Minister, in a Written Answer. on 15th November, to the hon.
  862
  Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) has stated that in Crawley 4,476 houses and flats have been built, of which 3,980 have been let to Londoners, so that, more or less, we are really Cockneys in Sussex, since 89 per cent. of the people have come from London.
  We are in this position. We have gone nearly two-thirds of the way towards completing our plans, but the new people who are coming to us may upset these plans, and I feel that it is, therefore, extremely necessary for us to know whether we are really to have an increase in the subsidy, as appears to be the case under the Bill, or whether, in fact, there is to be a reduction elsewhere which will take away the effect of that £2 increase.
  My heart has been going slowly down into my boots as one hon. Member after another has been making a special plea to my right hon. Friend for a nice bit of plunder out of Clause 5. I wish to make this plea, which may be a point for the Committee stage, on this Clause, which states that the application must be made to my right hon. Friend by a local authority. I would think, particularly in view of some of the matters to which I have referred, that there could very easily he conditions such as are set out in that Clause which would apply to a new town. Is a new town to be deprived of that sort of help and assistance because it is managed, not by a local authority, but by a corporation?
  Finally, may I say again that I think the hon. Member for Wellingborough was misinformed about Crawley. I think that the future of the new town is still very rosy, and that the hon. Gentleman was wrong in his forecast. I am sure he will not mind me saying so, because those of us on this side of the House who represent new towns are very proud of them and are doing everything we can to help them forward.
  7.57 p.m.
  Mr. C. W. Key: I want to try to put before the House the effect which the Bill will have on the housing problem of the area which I represent. Before I come to that, however, I must say what the problem of that area really is.
  During the war, Poplar suffered heavily, perhaps more heavily than any other comparable area in the country, from the

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  total destruction of houses by war operations. Nearly 9,000 of the houses in the area were either totally destroyed or irreparably damaged—roughly two out of every five houses in the area. So far, the number we have been able to rebuild is just over 2,000, but a very large number of houses still have to be replaced. In addition, we have other very heavy problems to tackle. For instance, at present, there are 1,168 families living in 843 requisitioned houses. This requisitioning was a national war-time measure to help such badly damaged areas to provide cover for their people, and, as such, it was, quite rightly, nationally financed.
  Despite what was said to the people of that devastated area by quite a number of leading statesmen who visited them during the war for the purpose of maintaining public morale, despite the fact that they made the people there feel that the Government would help them in the post-war difficulties, the responsibility for requisitioned property is now to be handed to local authorities, who are expected to bring requisitioning to an end by 1960. In the meantime, heavy expenditure in this matter is falling on the local rates. As from 1st April next year the amount falling upon the Poplar rate will be about £9,000 a year, the equivalent of a 4d. rate. That alone is a gross injustice. I can see no just reason why the ratepayers in a very heavily damaged area should be called upon to meet what was a national disaster and what should have been met by the nation as a whole.
  An even greater injustice will be done to them when this Bill comes into operation, for the authority has to provide alternative accommodation for the people who have to be rehoused from these requisitioned premises—and as I have said there are 1,168 families in 843 houses. The first thing which has to be done is to provide new accommodation for 325 families so as to bring the number in the requisitioned houses down to one family per house. I say that on the supposition that in each case the landlord will be prepared to accept the licensee as a statutory tenant but, in fact, there is little hope that that will be the case. So far, the owners of only 20 houses have said that they will be prepared to consider this suggestion. What landlords want is vacant possession, so that they can take
  864
  advantage of the dearth of accommodation and sell at the highest prices they can get.
  I am, therefore, making a very modest estimate if I say that the number of houses which will be needed to deal with this one problem alone will be 800 between now and 1960. All this has to be done on a very reduced housing subsidy for the next year or two and no subsidy thereafter. Another demand arises directly from the war. In my constituency 550 families are now living in emergency hutments and temporary bungalows. It is obvious that they must be dealt with in the next four or five years; they cannot be left where they are and new accommodation must be provided for them. The sum total of all this represents a very big problem indeed, but I want it to be noticed that as yet I have made no mention of the slum clearance problem. There are 1,330 families in slum houses and, in addition, there are a good number of families in houses so old that although they cannot technically be called slums they ought to be removed and replaced by houses of a modern character. Also, of course, they are overcrowded.
  I ask hon. Members how it can be held to be fair that an impossibly heavy burden upon an already heavily rated area should be imposed by the withdrawal of the national help which the subsidy was intended to provide. Practically all I have said—leaving out slum clearance—has to be done on the minimum subsidy of this Bill. I know I shall be told that the Minister will have power to increase the subsidy for some of the work if he so wishes, but to those of us with experience in local government that promise is not enough. This is not a matter which should be left to the will or the whim or the bias of any Minister. It is the duty of the House to ensure that the local authority has powers which are adequate for the job and finances which will make it possible for it to do the job without charging abnormal rents or undue rate burdens. If the House does not do this it will have failed in its duty to the electorate and betrayed the trust laid in it.
  Before coming to the financial effects of the Bill upon the Poplar Council, I want to say a few words about what has taken place within the last two or three months. First, there was the introduction

  865
  of the subsidy changes discussed in the House on 21st October, 1954, when we were discussing the Housing (Review of Contributions) Order, 1954. The effect of that Order was to reduce the subsidy from £26 10s. to £22 ls. In the opening speech which the Minister made on that occasion, he said—and I quote from HANSARD:
  "Since June, 1953, a major change has taken place in one of the main factors of the subsidy calculation, namely, in the rate of interest payable on loans from the Public Works Loan Board. This has gone down from 4¼ per cent. to 3¾ per cent. If all the other factors in the subsidy calculation had remained unchanged since 1952, this reduction of ½ per cent. in the interest rate would have made it possible to reduce the Exchequer subsidy from £26 10s. to £21 18s."—[OFFCICIAL REPORT, 21st October, 1954; Vol. 531, c. 1388.]
  That would have meant a reduction of £4 12s. In fact, the reduction was £4 9s. to £22 1s.
  Since the right hon. Gentleman made that statement the interest charged on the Public Works Loan Board loans has risen from 3¾ per cent. to 5 per cent., a rise 2½ times greater than the fall with which he was then dealing. If he said that the fall would have warranted a reduction in the subsidy of £4 12s., surely the rise would have warranted an increase in the subsidy of 2½ times £4 12s. In other words, the subsidy should have gone up by £11 10s.
  What the Minister has done, therefore —and I want the House to appreciate this—is to wipe the subsidy out altogether and to add £1 10s. to the cost to the local authority of each house. By leaving out of consideration that rise in the interest rates and including in the Bill a figure of £10 as subsidy, the Minister has attempted to deceive the electorate about what is happening in housing.
  Faced with these changes in the subsidy and with the alteration in the Public Works Loan Board's loans, the local authority had to consider what was to be the effect of the change upon either rents or rates and what it should do about it. The housing committee of my council has very carefully considered this question and made a special report to the council. A definite decision was made on how the problem was to be dealt with as from Monday of this week. The first thing it had to consider was what
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  problem arose. On a typical property in Poplar the changes in operation—they came into operation on 1st April—would mean a loss of 13s. a week.
  Where is that loss to fall? The council came to the conclusion that it could not justly be put on to the rates because, at present, the amount of housing costs falling on the rates is £36,380, a housing rate of Is. 4½d. in the £, the highest in the London area. It came to the conclusion that it would have to put it on the rents and said that as from Monday last the rent of every council dwelling in Poplar —pre-war and post-war—is to go up by 9d. per room in every flat and Is. per room in every house. That is the only way the council felt it possible to meet the increased cost.
  What about the future? The programme for the next financial year, 1956–57, entails the erection of 106 houses and 283 flats. On the old basis the subsidy on that programme would have amounted to £16,542, plus the London County Council contribution of £2,757, or a total contribution to the expenses of Poplar of £19,299. Under the new scheme in this Bill the subsidy will amount to approximately £7,946 and, since the requirement for a statutory rate contribution is now to be abolished, it remains to be seen whether London County Council will continue to make a contribution or not. If the L.C.C. decides to continue in the same proportion the amount it will give Poplar will be £1,324. In other words, the subsidy on this programme will amount to £9,270 as against £19,299.
  Mr. Mitchison: Less than half.
  Mr. Key: Less than half; a reduction of just over £10,000. I pointed out before that the £10,000 annual increase brought about by the changes which came into operation on 1st April could only be met, the council felt, by a rise of 9d. per room per flat and ls. per room per house. So next year's programme is to mean that rise over again and the provision of each succeeding 300 or 400 tenements in the area will mean a similar rise each time over the whole of the council's tenements in the area.
  At present, the amount falling on the rates is £36,380 a year, but there will be very nearly £4,000 falling on the rates even when we have made these alterations

  867
  in rents because, in the calculation I have made, I have not taken into account all the increase under the Public Works Loan Board. Every 300 or 400 houses we build will increase the rent of people in council houses as well as increasing the rates of the people in this heavily rated area. If that is to be done each year it will be seen that the burden to be placed on the people of that area will be absolutely unbearable.
  What is the Minister really doing? He is taking steps to drive the local authority out of house building altogether and to leave the tenants in their present dismal state, dependent on the rents charged them by private owners when the Minister takes his next step of removing rent restrictions altogether. That is the lesson the electors have to learn from this Bill. If the House did its duty to the needy public outside it would reject the Bill. If it does not do so it will compel the tenants—and probably ratepayers as well —to do what we had to do in our area after the First World War when we were left to carry national charges on local rates—take direct action themselves. If that direct action is taken, the Minister and his colleagues in this Government will be the only people really responsible.
  8.17 p.m.
  Sir Jocelyn Lucas: I have listened to the right hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Key) with a great deal of sympathy, not for what he said, but because he spoke of the war damage in Poplar—and I spent many nights in his constituency during the blitz as a fireman. I know the Isle of Dogs and Surrey Docks quite well. I should like to pay tribute to the courage of the inhabitants of Poplar whom I knew so well during the war.
  I also represent a bombed city, and the problem on which I wish to speak tonight is apparently not mentioned in this Bill, which I regard as a great defect. During the war Portsmouth was a badly blitzed city, and at the end of the war there were 11,000 people on the waiting list. As opportunity offered, a number of thrifty people, including many Service and other pensioners, invested their life savings in small old-fashioned houses of which Portsmouth was full, and bought those houses with the aid of building societies which presumably considered the property
  868
  to be worth the money they lent. Most of those people spent further money on those houses if they had it—often all the money they had—in making their purchases snug and shipshape, and of course old sailors are handy at doing things like that.
  Whole areas are to be demolished, and the good must go with the bad, but compensation for good and bad is identical and compensation is for site value only. It is true that a well-kept house may get a special grant of about £25 or so more than a dirty tumble-down building of similar type, worth nothing except for the land it is on, but that is almost an insult. I saw two houses in the same street recently. One was a small, dirty, ill-kept house, with a so-called garden just a mass of weeds. Nearby was a charming little home spotlessly clean, nicely furnished, weatherproof and better than the average old-fashioned country cottage. The garden was charming and well cared for, a mass of flowers. This house, of course, was owner-occupied, and had been bought by an old couple with their savings. They had obviously spent money on improving it and had hoped to live and die in it, being intensely proud and fond of their home. Now they will lose their property and be left with a mortgage of several hundred pounds to repay to the building society.
  Mrs. Slater: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great racket going on at present, nothing more nor less, in all parts of the country by landlords who know that property is scheduled for slum clearance and are selling it to people similar to those about whom he is speaking?
  Sir J. Lucas: I am not talking about a racket. This was a case of people who tried to help themselves after the war and bought on mortgage—[An HON. MEMBER: "Excessive."] No, not excessive—£700 or £800 or £900 as the purchase price.
  We say that we believe in a property-owning democracy but it is surely wrong that such people, with houses with years of service left in them, bought at varying periods and by people who preferred to help themselves rather than to rely on public subsidies, should be robbed of their life savings in this way, the more so as they generally bought their houses through a building society, or on their valuation.

  869
  I assure the hon. Lady that I am not backing the speculators or the slum landlords. If the speculators lose their money, it is their own funeral. I am talking about the chap who tries to help himself. I beg the Minister to give the councils reasonable latitude in the price payable in such cases and also in the definition of what slum property is. A decent house, slightly old-fashioned, should not be condemned in the same way as one that is practically derelict.
  As I have said, I am not concerned with the speculator but solely with the property owner. To its credit, Portsmouth Council has protested vigorously to the Minister, as have all the local Members. May I add that, although it has been formed only in the last couple of months, a new society called the Portsmouth Owner Occupiers' Association, already has a membership of 7,000. I checked the figures with the Portsmouth Evening News this morning. This shows the strength of feeling that exists there, and the anxiety and indignation at what is regarded locally as a form of legalised robbery.
  It appears that not only the house owners but also the building societies must lose their money, since many of these people cannot possibly afford to repay the mortgage. They can continue to pay something off it, but in many cases they can never repay all of it. Therefore, I beg the Minister to do what he can to solve this urgent problem as soon as possible, either in this Bill but, if not, in some other way. Except for that point, I have much pleasure in supporting this excellent Bill.
  8.23 p.m.
  Mr. S. P. Viant: It is a long time since the House discussed a more serious problem than the one which it is discussing today. I hope that sufficient has been said in the debate so far to convince the Minister of the error in the figures which he submitted to the House this afternoon in regard to increases of rent that are likely to take place as a result of the Bill. In the light of this debate those figures are fantastic, and I hope that the Minister will speedily reconsider the necessity to revise his views as to the financial effect of this Bill.
  870
  It is always well to be armed with a brief by an authority which is administering an Act. Therefore I asked my borough treasurer to supply me with a few facts. In one portion of the Borough of Willesden we have a slum clearance and redevelopment scheme. Already we have erected an eight-storey block of flats in which there are 64 flats. It is the intention of the council to continue this development but I ask the Minister if, in the light of the facts that I shall read to him, he considers it possible for the local council to continue with it.
  The 64 flats were completed at a total cost of £190,435. The annual loan charges for 60 years, with interest at 4¼ per cent., amount to £8,799, but at 5 per cent. they would have been £10,040, an increase of £1,241 a year or over £19 per flat per annum. Now I quote:
  "The subsidy on this cleared site, which costs nearly £19,000 per acre, is expected to be £4,944 a year calculated at £77 5s. per flat. If this scheme had not been started before the 3rd November, 1955, it appears that a general needs subsidy only would have become payable; this subsidy at the rate of £41 10s. per flat, plus the subsidy for building on an expensive site, would attract a total subsidy of £3,514. Although this scheme is part of the major scheme of redevelopment in the congested South Kilburn area it does not appear to come within the definition in the Bill which would enable the Council to claim the higher rate of subsidy proposed for slum clearance or redevelopment schemes under Part III of the Housing Act, 1936."
  Here I direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that both the local authority and myself have communicated with him in the hope that he will state in the course of this debate the position in regard to subsidies for redevelopment areas. It is not precisely clear in the Bill, and it is a point which I hope will be made clear by the Government spokesman who replies to the debate.
  The letter continues:
  "The net rents required to cover the annual cost of this scheme after deducting subsidies and the statutory rate fund contributions were £1 1s., £1 8s. 7d. and £1 Its. 7d. for the one, two and three bedroom flats respectively. Even with the then existing subsidies the Council decided that these rents were too high to demand from the tenants in this area."
  It is an exceedingly poor area. The letter states:
  "Under the proposed arrangements, with an increase in loan charges of £1,241 and a reduction of Exchequer subsidy of £1,430—an additional burden of £2,671 which would arise on a similar scheme in future "—

  871
  and it is the future to which the council is looking, as are my hon. Friends on these benches—
  "the rents would be increased to £11s. 3d., £2 4s. 3d., and £2 9s. a week respectively even if the Council decided to contribute the equivalent of the former rate fund contribution of £27 10s. per dwelling."
  Mr. Barnett Janner: I wonder if my hon. Friend can associate those increases with the 9d. a week we heard about from the Minister, who calculated on a different basis?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): I think that the hon. Member should be allowed to make his own speech.
  Mr. Viant: I am hoping that the Government spokesman who replies to the debate will be able to show how the Minister relates the sums he has mentioned to the facts I am giving, which have been given to me by the borough treasurer, who is a responsible officer.
  I come to another instance:
  "The second case exemplifies the changed position regarding flats in three storey blocks which previously attracted subsidies for flats on expensive sites, but would for future schemes attract only the general needs subsidy for ordinary dwellings with no expensive site subsidy. I refer to 26 flats completed early this year … at a total cost of £50,250. In this case the loan charges were estimated at £2,216 but at 5 per cent. would be £2,649—an increase of £433. The cost of the site worked out at nearly £4,000 per acre. so that enhanced subsidies totalling £1,227 were attracted, as compared with the minimum subsidy of £10 per flat, or a total of £260 which would be payable under the Housing Subsidies Bill, a reduction of £1,017."
  Of course, I quite understand I am imposing upon the Minister a big arithmetical problem:
  "Under this Bill no addition is made for the high cost of the site unless it is more than £4,000 per acre. The additional burden falling on the tenants and the rate fund on a similar scheme in the future would therefore be £1,450 a year. The net rents required to meet the annual cost of these flats after deducting both Exchequer and rate fund subsidies were 16s. 2d., 18s. 10d. and £1 1s. 6d. for one two and three bedroom flats respectively. If no rate fund subsidy were paid into the Housing Revenue Account the rents required after deducting the Exchequer subsidy only would be £1 1s. 11d., £1 5s. 7d. and £1 9s. 3d. respectively. Under the proposed arrangements the net rents required to meet the cost of such a scheme, after deducting the proposed Exchequer subsidies, would be £2 1s. 7d., £2 8s. 6d. and £2 15s. 5d. respectively—almost double."
  Mr. Sandys: May I try to clarify the position, as I have tried to do in the case of earlier speeches? May I take it that the figures which the hon. Gentleman is giving are theoretical figures, and not the rents which he himself thinks that the Willesden Borough Council will in fact charge?
  Mr. Viant: These are the rental charges which the council will have to make.
  Mr. Sandys: Will make?
  Mr. Viant: I am explaining what the effect of the Bill will be, provided the council continues to build. That is the point which I am making.
  We have 10,000 people on our register needing accommodation. We have a number of bombed sites on which there were one or two houses. The people naturally agitate for the council to build on these bombed sites. The council has sent to the right hon. Gentleman estimates of the cost of erecting houses on these sites. The erection of a single house or a pair of houses is exceedingly costly. The right hon. Gentleman has turned those estimates down, and he will not allow the council to continue. He says that the cost is too high. Without the subsidy, the cost will make it utterly impossible for the council to proceed, but the 10,000 people on the register will continue to agitate for the council to build on these bombed sites. What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do about that?
  Mr. Janner: Nothing.
  Mr. Viant: So far the debate has hinged upon the subject of increased rentals. I want to touch upon other aspects of the Bill. The building of council houses is undoubtedly going steadily down and will ultimately stop. Whether it is the desire of the Government that that should take place or not is best known to the right hon. Gentleman. What will be the effect?
  We shall have quite a large number of building trade operatives unemployed. That is inevitable. The right hon. Gentleman says, "But there are the new towns and slum clearance." Has he given any consideration to the delay which will take place in slum clearance? Where are the local authorities to house the people while they are clearing the land in order to erect the new houses where the slums formerly stood? Has the right hon.

  873
  Gentleman considered that? That aspect of the problem is left to the local authorities to deal with. The Minister hands the baby over to someone else to nurse. That is typical of the Tory Party.
  We appealed at the end of the First World War to the building trade operatives to accept dilutees to boost the labour force. The Labour Government, after the last war, were successful in persuading the building trade operatives to increase their numbers. The Tory Party is already going back on the promises that it made to the operatives. The new towns will not absorb the displaced building labour, and a long time will elapse before slum clearance will absorb them.
  The Federation of Building Trade Operatives recently made a survey of the amount of commercial and industrial building now in hand and estimated to take place in the near future. The survey shows a slowing down of commercial and industrial building. Therefore, it will be impossible to absorb the building trade labour that we have at our disposal. This is the beginning of unemployment. There is here involved not only the question of rents and of accommodation for the displaced and those who are in need of houses, but the Bill proposes, not immediately, but gradually, slowly and surely, to pave the way for the return of the problem of unemployment.
  I am sorry that we on this side of the House are unable to muster sufficient numbers in the Lobby to defeat the Bill. If I were the Minister, I should be very sorry to have to commend the Bill to the House. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman cannot appreciate the problem that he is creating for the local authorities, the houseless and the building trade operatives.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: I want to say three things about this Bill. First, I should like to have clarification on what type of house qualifies for the £24 subsidy, I should explain the difficulty in which my own local authority finds itself. The Ilford Borough Council, together with other local authorities in the Conference of South-West Essex Authorities, has acquired four parcels of land in other parts of Essex, ranging from 24 acres to 50 acres, on which it is intended
  874
  to build 1,048 houses. My own local authority's share of the houses is to be 235. It is hoped to begin building in 1956.
  The question arises of how much subsidy the houses will attract. To explain the difficulty in which the Ilford Borough Council finds itself, I would draw the attention of the Minister to Clause 3 (3). The subsection lays down the conditions which a house must satisfy to qualify for the £24 subsidy. Paragraph (c) states that it qualifies if the dwelling is,
  "provided by a local authority in the course of a scheme of town development as defined by the Town Development Act, 1952, carried out with the approval of the Minister in the area of that authority …"
  The difficulty here is that the scheme is not within the area of the authority, but it is being carried out under the Town Development Act.
  It may be argued, when the council claims the £24 subsidy, that it is acting under the Act only as a matter of procedural convenience, because it is only one of a number of local authorities who are joining together to build outside their own areas. That may mean that the houses will not qualify under Clause 3 (3, c), and therefore we have to turn to paragraph (e), which refers to building under the New Towns Act, 1946.
  I do not see that Ilford Borough Council can be satisfied that it will qualify under either of these subsections, and I should be most grateful if the Minister could give us an assurance that my constituents' fears are groundless. If those houses do not attract a higher subsidy, it is possible that this isolated community will have to be charged by the local authority rents which will be most unattractive in view of the fact that people who live in the community will have to travel long distances to their work. It would be of great assistance if my right hon. Friend would address his mind to this problem, and if the Parliamentary Secretary could give us a reply when he winds up the debate tonight.
  Mr. Lindgren: When I was speaking this afternoon, the hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, South (Squadron Leader Cooper) interjected to say that Ilford Borough Council wholeheartedly supported the Government in this matter. Can we be clear about which hon. Member for Ilford is speaking correctly?
  Mr. Iremonger: I was not in the Chamber and I should not like to comment on something which I had not heard; but as my colleague and I have discussed this matter and as I am merely asking for clarification about one particular point about one particular aspect of Ilford Borough Council's housing policy, I imagine that it would be perfectly possible to reconcile what my hon. Friend and I have said.
  Mr. Powell: It is.
  Mr. Iremonger: My hon. Friend has greatly heartened me.
  I should have thought that in a matter of dialectics the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) would do well to hide his head in shame. He gave a wonderful exposition of what dire wrongs the Conservative Party had done to the country with its housing policy, but I could not help reflecting that it was strange that the Labour Party had refrained from mentioning our housing policy on its electoral platforms. I should have thought that our sins would have deserved greater recognition before.
  I should like to say a word about the whole question of differential rates. Ilford Borough Council is just starting to operate a rent rebate scheme. It would be most helpful that it should come from the House that on both sides we are agreed—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members are saying "No." I have no doubt that some of them may still wish to say "No" when they have heard what I have to say. I was about to say it would be most helpful if both sides would agree in principle that the idea of differential rents is both morally right and socially healthy.
  Hon. Members: No.
  Mr. Iremonger: For those hon. Members opposite who care to take the guidance of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)—I am sorry that he is not in his place; I should say in either of his places—I might point to certain words of wisdom which were uttered by him on 4th July, 1949. He said:
  "No hardship is suffered at all by virtue of the fact that the local authorities have decided to raise rents."
  876
  I mention that merely to put the next sentence in its context. He went on:
  "As these people are living in subsidised houses, it is reasonable that they should pay a slight increase in rent rather than the other people should pay an increase in rates in order to keep those rents down."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th July, 1949; Vol. 466, c. 1822.]
  Hon. Members: An entirely different matter.
  Mr. Iremonger: Hon. Gentlemen opposite are perfectly entitled to say that this is a different proposition.
  If they find that they are unable to accompany me intellectually on that particular proposition, let me submit to them a proposition to which they will be proud to adhere and to which, in fact, they have rather unnecessarily claimed an exclusive adherence. It is the proposition that the good things of life and the fruits of toil should be taken from each according to his ability and given to each according to his needs. If one accepts that, it is rather difficult to make a case against what I am advancing, that the principle of differential rents, in whatever way we wish to operate it, is, as I said, morally right and socially healthy.
  I say with sincerity to hon. Gentlemen opposite that whatever differences we may have, I do not think that—as some hon. Gentlemen have seemed to me to do—they should incite resistance among council house tenants to the differential rent schemes which my right hon. Friend has rightly said are bound to be the result of the fulfilment of his policy. I think differential rent schemes are right, and it would be a great help if hon. Members opposite recognised, as we do, that we owe a great debt to Socialist-controlled councils and local authorities who have pioneered in this field, and who are successfully operating differential rent schemes and rent rebate schemes.
  It would be in the public interest that we should recognise, whatever the difficulties may be—and these matters can only be sorted out in the light of experience in each area, according to its particular peculiarities—that we accept the idea of differential rents in principle. I hope that I am right—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I believe that that will be acceptable, but if I am wrong I submit that it is a great pity.

  877
  The third thing I wish to say concerns the wider financial implications of this Bill. The carrying out of the policies initiated in the Bill will shift the emphasis of house building on to the clearance of slums and the rehousing elsewhere of the occupants of slum properties—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] That is a fascinating question, but it is not the one to which I am addressing myself at the moment. The criticism which I wish to make, and I think it a serious criticism which must be made about this Bill, is that it entirely ignores a major grievance which will be aggravated by the fulfilment of the policy advocated in this Measure. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is it?"] I am delighted to see that hon. Members are so interested to hear what I am going to say. I like to be prompted by the question, "What?", and they will be rewarded with an answer.
  I have doubts about whether the Bill is the right place to do what I have in mind. I would say to my right hon. Friend that, in bringing in this Bill he is absolutely right, that I have confidence in his fairness and in his humanity—and on whichever side of the House he may sit, no hon. Member can have any doubt about the courage of my right hon. Friend—but I say to him also that it will be with the greatest reluctance that I shall be able to support him, unless I can be assured that he will seek to remedy the grave injustice arising out of the present system of compensation for property compulsorily acquired.
  The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) interrupted my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, South (Sir J. Lucas) when he was making what I thought was a helpful and eloquent plea on behalf of the people I have in mind. She challenged him with the suggestion that he was defending a type of individual which neither she nor I wish to defend. I fully sympathise with her reservation upon this subject, but I am sure that she and I could agree that we could weed out all the undesirable types whom we did not want to protect and succeed in finding a residue of people who, in common humanity, have had an extremely raw deal and are doing to get an even rawer deal as the fruits of this Bill are enjoyed.
  Some of my hon. Friends and I have aired this view in the public Press, and I
  878
  have been overwhelmed with letters from all parts of the country giving me concrete examples of grievances which cannot be laughed off as being the negligible grievances of rapacious landlords. If it comes to the, attention of any hon. Member that I have dealt with a letter from one of his constituents without referring to him, a moment's thought will explain the reason why. Many of these people write their addresses in such a way that they do not indicate their constituencies and, with the best will in the world, the necessary research is more than I can undertake.
  I propose to deal with these letters, and some hon. Members will find that I have been communicating with their constituents over their heads. I do not want to do that, but I cannot avoid it. I always tell them, however, that if they have any individual grievance they must take it up with their Member of Parliament.
  I know that the solution to the problem of these people is very difficult. It raises immensely complicated questions of almost metaphysical complexity, but I will hand my right hon. Friend this pile of letters and ask him to make an effort to find a formula to solve the really pathetic problems which these letters raise. Will my right hon. Friend please recognise that this matter is urgent? It is urgent from my point of view because, as I have already said to him, I am reaching the end of the time when I can tell constituents who come to me with troubles of this kind, "Yes, I know you have been robbed. I know that if anybody else did it they would go to prison, but this is the Government, and I cannot do anything to help you." I cannot continue to say that for very much longer, and the Minister will have to provide a more satisfactory alternative.
  Mr. Sparks: Is the hon. Member saying that his own Government are robbing his constituents?
  Mr. Iremonger: The phrase that properly describes what is happening is "legalised robbery." There is no other word for it. I do not want to blame hon. Members opposite, but they cannot stand in a white sheet; they are in it up to the neck. I should have thought that they would have been more anxious to support me than to deride my efforts to remedy injustices which, I can assure

  879
  them, have operated upon many of their constituents.
  This is also a matter of urgency because many of Her Majesty's subjects are in dire distress of mind in this connection. I ask my right hon. Friend to treat it as a matter of the highest priority, and to give us an assurance that he will do something to ensure that many worthy and humble people will be prevented from coming to an end in violence and despair, which I believe will otherwise be their fate.
  9.0 p.m.
  Miss Jennie Lee: At this late hour, when so many Members are anxious to speak, I shall try to resist two temptations. One is to follow the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) along many of the tortuous paths he has taken, and the other is to quote at length from the brief which has been supplied to me by the local authorities in my constituency. I shall make some reference to the brief, but, I hope, not a lengthy one.
  The hon. Member for Ilford, North, talked about differential rents. We shall not follow that subject, because it is not relevant to the debate. Then he talked about having a community in which each individual is looked after according to his or her needs and each gives according to his or her abilities. I would be only too happy if he were to reapply that principle
  Is there not something contemptible, however, about sorting out working people, particularly at one of the most vulnerable points of their whole lives, when they are trying to find a decent home for themselves and their families, and then preaching those pious sermons? The hon. Gentleman is either blind, or has no concern with wider issues, when he expresses sentiments like that.
  Earlier in the debate hon. Members were saying, "Go round the housing estates and you will find that you cannot get near the houses for the motor cars that are lined up." Would hon. Gentlemen like to go round all the factories that are advantaged by derating and see how many of them have social and economic assets, and then say to them, "They do not need to be helped by derating"? Would they like to go to the farmers and say, "We shall no
  880
  longer give subsidies to these people"? When Government supporters think of ways of economising, they pick not on the richest and strongest members of the community, but on the weakest and poorest.
  Mr. C. J. M. Alport: Is the hon. Lady advocating the derating of agricultural and industrial property?
  Miss Lee: There is a great deal of rethinking about derating to be done both by industry and agriculture, but I am not dealing with that matter, unless it is to say that if hon. Members want to get down to the business of remedying social and economic injustices let them get down to it, but not use pious phrases like "to each according to his needs" in that limited and squalid way.
  What does the Minister think he is doing or saving by the Bill? What will be the national advantage of it? Perhaps his advisers have told him that he can save the country so many millions of pounds. What figure of saving does the Bill attract: £47 million, £40 million? What figure would hon. Gentlemen opposite suggest? When they put on one side of the balance sheet how much they think they will save by their cuts in the subsidies, have they thought of the other side of the balance sheet? Have they thought how much they will lose?
  One thing is clear in this debate; not one hon. Member has said that he spoke with the backing of his local authority. [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes."] I apologise if there were one or two exceptions. The local authorities, whether Labour or Tory controlled, are, in overwhelming majority, strenuously opposed to this Bill. Why are they opposed to it? Because it is an attack on the standards of housing of the working class. It is not a slum clearance Bill, but a Bill to make slums. We make slums when weput rents at such a height that people have to double up.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Viant) that one of the results of the Bill will be a measure of unemployment which would discipline the working people to make sure that it is easier for hon. Gentlemen opposite to carry out reductions in standards of living. Do hon. Members opposite think that all action will be on the Government side, that it will all be very tidy, that they can save a few million

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  pounds for the Chancellor and that there will be no retaliation from the people who find that their standard of living is being reduced?
  I said that I would refrain from quoting from my local authorities at any great length, but the Minister has made it quite clear that he will cut the subsidy on houses for miners already in the expanding mining areas. What am I to advise my miner constituents to do—start playing musical chairs? Am I to advise the miners living in my area to go elsewhere for a time and then come back as immigrants and, perhaps, then get a grant?
  I do not care whether they are miners, bus conductors or engineers—we need them all to make a community. But is it seriously expected that the working people will take a cut in their standard of living—on top of those already contained in the emergency Budget—and that there will be no retaliation? A local authority in the mining area of my constituency tells me that if these cuts take place it will mean an increased rent of between 5s. and 6s. a week on the normal three-bedroomed house. I will not quibble about the odd pence. We have all made our different calculations, but the one calculation which has been common on all sides of the House is that rents will go up.
  What are our people to do? Are they to look round the country as it is at present and see the fantastic profits made in many industries, and the great American petroleum interests holding us by the nose so that we have to follow their high prices and fantastic profits, and say, "There is one law for the rich and another for the poor"? If the Government imagine that that will be the result of such a Bill as this they are making the mistake of their lives.
  I take my own area as typical—not unique. If, in that expanding mining area, the men and women have removed from them the hope of getting a good home and a fair place in the queue they will retaliate. Do the Government propose to say to an area where there is an overspill problem—in Wednesfield, for instance—"You are not a new town, but an old-established community. We therefore expect you to help provide homes for the people from the constituency of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West
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  (Mr. Powell) on such terms that you will have to raise the general level of rents?"
  The Government are simply causing conflict where conflict need not exist. On a good neighbour basis one community helps another, but Wednesfield—which I use only as an illustration, though the problem is countrywide—is not likely to help solve Wolverhampton's housing problem at the expense of its own. The Minister shakes his head. I hope that I misunderstood his interpretation of the Bill but, as I read it, it gives no hope at all to an area such as mine. If I am wrong I wish he would contradict me. He seems to expect the great mass of our working people to follow one kind of life, to behave in one kind of way, while the minority of the privileged behave in another. I tell the Minister that it will not happen in that way.
  I have in my hand a letter from a miner who left the mining industry, maybe quite wrongly, in his anger at the fact that a miner coming into the district from elsewhere obtained a house when he himself had been waiting for ten years. He says that he is "browned off," and that he is not going to put up with the combined hardships of his job and the squalor of his home any longer. We on this side of the House stand for both the man who is coming into the district and the man who lives there already, both of whom should be able to obtain a house.
  We have never pretended that we could house everybody at once. We have always said that there must be priorities and allocations, and that out of the country's total available labour and material resources in any one year, we must budget for industry, exports, schools, hospitals, homes and all the rest, but we want fair, honest budgeting and genuine allocations. The Minister is not giving us that, nor is the Government. What the Government are saying is "We do not care," although hundreds of thousands of people who are earning their daily bread the hard way have to adopt the motto quoted by one of my hon. Friends on another occasion—"Abandon hope all ye who enter here."
  People have been very good in waiting for a home, and I do not think that my own experience is unique. They knew perfectly well that immediately after the war we had to start building up our labour force and all the various elements

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  that go into house building. They did not expect everything to be done in one year, but they do expect that the further away we get from the holocaust of war a greater proportion of the job will have been done, and they also expect that there will at least be fair priorities.
  I warn the Government that they have failed on this basic problem, and I would also warn them that working people can count and reason as well as anyone else. If the Government think that they will save money by this Bill, may I ask them how much they expect to save? How many days of strikes will it mean in the mining, engineering and other industries, on the railways or anywhere else, when men lose their tempers because what is proposed is being done in the name of economy?
  I wish I could get the Minister to say that there will be very considerable concessions made during the Committee stage on this Bill. The fact that a Government can bring in a Bill like this, are so blind to the larger social arithmetic, and so concerned with small arithmetic, indicates that there is nothing that can be done except to expose them, to get rid of them as soon as possible, and get back to proper priorities.
  9.14 p.m.
  Brigadier Terence Clarke: I am very happy to be able to follow the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee). I enjoyed hearing her say that working-class people can reason for themselves, because I think that that is quite correct. I think, also, that if they look back over the last four years, during which they have had a Conservative Government, they will agree that they are very happy with the housing situation as it has developed, because over the previous years, when the hon. Lady was perhaps more associated with the housing problem, it was not a howling success.
  In the 1950 Election, I defeated the Parliamentary Private Secretary the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) on this very problem in Portsmouth, because at that time we got no houses at all. The housing situation in Portsmouth has improved very well since we have not had his assistance. However, I will not pursue that point.
  Mr. Bevan: Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that no houses at all were built in Portsmouth at that time? I should like to discuss with him the days of Portsmouth housing when the speculative builders were putting the skids on the local authority and preventing housing from starting at all.
  Brigadier Clarke: If the right hon. Gentleman is happy with what he did for housing in Portsmouth, I hope that the people there will be able to read his words tomorrow, because they are anything but satisfied with his so-called success. I think they look forward to the day when he may reach the top position of the Labour Party, because then they will never vote for a Labour Government again.
  Like the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock, I represent a working-class constituency.
  Mr. Lindgren: Misrepresent.
  Brigadier Clarke: That is a matter of opinion.
  They are working-class people. There are a large number of Service pensioners and 25,000 people working in the dockyards on very low wages, of which I do not approve. I regularly fight for them in their efforts to get better wages. Like the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Miss Vickers), they are the people who need houses most. They are extremely badly paid and very poor. There is a problem in these two cities. I am not a landlord; I do not own a house or any other piece of property. In any case, I am not a farmer or a farmer's wife. I can hardly visualise a picture of the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock sitting on a stool pulling at a cow and getting a drop of milk. I somehow feel that the hon. Lady and her right hon. Friend are more the rapacious landlords than I am likely to be. I will not pursue the matter any further; it does not seem to have drawn any milk.
  Mr. Gibson: It was a good try.
  Brigadier Clarke: No doubt the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) will be able to speak on Monday. The hon. Gentleman interrupted when my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport was making her excellent speech. I hope he agrees that she is a great improvement on what we had from Plymouth before.

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  No doubt the former hon. Member for Devonport does very well in the editorial office of the Farmer's Weekly.
  Miss Lee: Is this an exhibition of good manners?
  Brigadier Clarke: If the hon. Lady would like to intervene I will give way.
  Miss Lee: What are we having now? An exhibition of good manners or a contribution to the debate?
  Brigadier Clarke: I do not know whether the best manners come from Ebbw Vale or Cannock, but if I have overstepped the bounds a little by putting the hon. Lady on a stool, milking a cow, I apologise and withdraw.
  The Minister has done a very good job in bringing forward the Bill and I shall support it in every way except one—the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger), to which I will come in a minute. A great many people in my constituency require houses and are unable to get them because we had six years of Socialism. There are also a large number living in houses in my constituency who can well afford to pay a proper, adequate and economic rent. I see no reason that old-age pensioners and others should pay high rates to keep people who can well afford to pay their own rents. This Bill will see that everybody gets a square deal and that, I know, is in the mind of the Minister in bringing it forward. We shall not have poor people subsidising people who are better off, but who live in council houses.
  Perhaps I may make a suggestion to the Minister. It is not a new one, and because it is not new it is not a bad one, either. It has been on tap for a long time and it may well be considered in the future. If I were in the unfortunate position of being Minister of Housing and Local Government—
  Mr. Lindgren: Heaven forbid.
  Brigadier Clarke: I have no wish to be in that office. I seem to remember that the hon. Gentleman went to school without any shoes.
  Mr. Lindgren: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is making all sorts of statements this evening. Not only can he not read but apparently he cannot distinguish
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  one hon. Member from another. I do not know who he mistakes me for.
  Brigadier Clarke: I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I understand that he did have shoes. I hope he had rabbit's fur round them, too.
  I ask the Minister to consider giving a subsidy of £100 or more to young couples under the age of 30 to allow them to put down a deposit to purchase a house. I believe they would be better citizens if they were members of the property-owning democracy in which we of this party believe. Many of them have not enough money to put down the capital. It is far cheaper to give them £100 to allow them to buy a house than to subsidise a house for forty or more years and go on paying maintenance on that house during a long period.
  These people would be very good British citizens if they were given a reasonable sum with which to start married life. It is not a fantastic idea and we might well consider it. It was done by many after the First World War and we should encourage young people in that way. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has put rather a drag on young married people who are trying to purchase furniture and other things. I am quite fair and open-minded on this and hope to attack my right hon. Friend on it later. I have abstained on many points in the Finance Bill and hope to go on doing so.
  I have no quarrel with the Minister of Housing and Local Government. I think he is doing well. I hope that he will stick to his guns and think of giving a subsidy to young married couples who wish to buy their own houses. Various safeguards could be provided and, if the practice were abused, it would be possible to legislate against such abuse.
  I wish to raise the question of people who have been turned out of so-called unfit houses.
  Mr. Denis Howell: Before the hon. and gallant Member leaves the point about subsidy for young married people—in which matter I might almost declare an interest—would he not agree that £100 would be completely inadequate in this year in order to become a member of the property-owning democracy, apart from

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  the question of buying furniture and so on? One hundred pounds would not be sufficient as a deposit towards buying a house these days.
  Brigadier Clarke: Many of my constituents have not the same high ideas as the hon. Member. They would be perfectly happy with £100 to start as a deposit in becoming property owners. There is nothing wrong in principle in becoming a property owner. Many right hon. Members of the Opposition Front Bench have a farm, or a house. I like to see them looking prosperous and owning a nice farm.
  Now I wish to speak about the problem of the unfit house. I have a constituent with nine children who has been dispossessed of a house on the purchase of which he spent every penny he had. Quite recently during the régime of the Labour Government a large sum of money was spent on that house for war damage—more than £300. Now all that is wasted, the house has been taken away, and my constituent is left with a large mortgage to pay. All he gets its site value. That is not fair; it is not British justice. I am sure that the Minister will do something for these people who are being dispossessed and robbed of their property by a stroke of the pen, with no consideration or human thought given to the suffering involved. There will be more Pilgrims. I do not want to see a Conservative Government getting into trouble if people shoot themselves—and people will shoot themselves if they are dispossessed without reasonable compensation
  The hon. Lady the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) interrupted my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Lucas) and suggested that he was trying to help the rapacious landlord. Well, a landlord is entitled to justice as much as anybody else, but neither my hon. Friend nor I were speaking for landlords but only for working class men living in a working class area. We want to see that they are given justice. If the hon. Lady does not agree with that, perhaps she will go to Portsmouth, West, tell them so there, and see what response she gets. About 7,000 workpeople there are to be dispossessed of their houses. Is that what the hon. Lady would like? No, she was just being
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  facetious, because she did not understand the problem. I ask the Minister to tell us what he intends to do about unfit houses.
  9.26 p.m.
  Mr. Julius Silverman: May I follow the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke) in one point only? He mentioned the question of additional compensation for slum owners. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes to differentiate and introduce a means test as between different types of owners, then there is something to be said for the principle of giving higher compensation to the owner-occupier. I am sure that that is a principle which will never be accepted by the party opposite, because they have always used the orphan and widow who owns stocks or shares as an argument for exacting a higher rate of compensation for all stockholders—
  Sir J. Lucas: When I spoke I said that I did not care about the slum owners and that I was speaking entirely for the owner-occupiers, not for the speculators.
  Mr. Silverman: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman adopts that attitude, but I am sure he will find that his party will not adopt it in making a differentiation between one type of owner and another. As I say, if the party opposite is prepared to accept the principle of a means test in respect of compensation, it will find a good deal of support on this side of the House.
  I want to deal with the problem of a large local authority. In some respects it is worse than that of other local authorities, but it is typical of the housing problem of other large authorities. Birmingham has 62,000 applicants on its ordinary housing register and it is estimated that of those at least 44,000 families are in acute housing need. That is a serious housing problem. Some of these people might be covered by slum clearance because they live in overcrowded circumstances. In many cases they have been on the housing register for ten years or more, and the Minister is saying that houses built for these people shall receive no subsidy whatever. That is a terrific blow to the people of Birmingham and the local authority, and other local authorities like it.

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  It is no good the Government saying they will concentrate on slum clearance even if that is the real objective of the Bill. I do not believe it is the real objective of the Bill. I should be more convinced of the Minister's sincerity about slum clearance if the Government had not introduced the increased rate of interest which will make the houses and flats to be built for slum clearance much more—indeed, prohibitively—expensive, so that many of the people to be cleared from the slums will not be able to pay the rents for them. Therefore, I say that the Bill is of no assistance whatever to slum clearance, and the suggestion that it is intended to accelerate slum clearance is a subterfuge. The Bill will slow down, if not stop, local authority building, and I say that that is what it is intended to do.
  It is intended to do something else also. The Minister let the cat out of the bag when he was making his speech. He said that these rents are inter-related with the rents of private houses. So the Bill is to be used as a lever by which to increase the rents of about 7 million tenants of private houses and will be used as a lever for the abolition of rent control, with all the heartbreak that it will produce. I suggest that those are the motives behind the Bill and that the Bill has nothing whatever to do with slum clearance.
  I return to the position of Birmingham, and of other housing authorities in a like situation. Birmingham, for instance, has to go outside the city to provide housing estates for its people. Now, under the Bill, they will not rank for subsidy. There will be no subsidy whatever. The only way in which a subsidy can be obtained for the applicants on the Birmingham housing register to be rehoused elsewhere is for Birmingham to go cap in hand to the surounding local authorities to try to persuade them to come to an arrangement to rehouse Birmingham's tenants.
  Mr. John Dugdale: If they happen to come to the next borough of West Bromwich they will find that there are 7,000 people on the housing list there and that there is no possibility of West Bromwich receiving them.
  Mr. Silverman: Obviously, there are many areas to which they cannot go. Birmingham's problem is worse than that of West Bromwich, but there are places, doubtless, which are not anxious to take Birmingham tenants, and because of the increased burdens which the increased interest rates impose they will be still less anxious to take Birmingham's tenants, whom they may not wish to receive anyhow. To take them would be to bear an even greater financial burden because of the rates of interest imposed by the present Government.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West mentioned the subsidising of municipal tenants. We are told that we ought to have differential rent schemes and all sorts of things to see that the wealthy municipal tenants are not subsidised. In the old days we used to hear from the Tory Party about the coal in the bath. They have stopped alleging that municipal tenants keep coal in the bath, which was alleged to prove that the municipal tenants were unfit for municipal houses. Now the Tories tell us the municipal tenants have Rolls-Royce cars outside their doors. Any argument is good enough to show that fewer municipal houses should be built.
  Who is being subsidised? Let us be clear about this. When this Government came into power the rate of interest was 3 per cent. At present, the rate of interest is 5 per cent. The increased charge imposed by that additional 2 per cent. amounts to a sum which is almost precisely the same as the national and local housing subsidy put together. If we wiped out the 2 per cent. it would be possible to build the houses and, without any subsidy at all, to let them for the same rent as they are being let at the present time. So, who is being subsidised? It is not the municipal tenant. Who is being subsidised? It is the moneylender who is being subsidised. If the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West, who spoke—
  Mr. Lindgren: And has gone out.
  Mr. Silverman: —and has gone out, objects to the widow and the poor tenant of any municipal house not having to pay because of these subsidies, let him understand, at least, who is getting the subsidy. It is not the municipal tenants but the moneylenders whom the Tory

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  Party backs in the same way it backs the landlords of the private houses.
  When hon. Gentlemen opposite talk about these wealthy people who live in municipal houses, and when we deal with the local subsidy, let this be borne in mind. The tenant is buying the house for the local authority. He is not in the position of a man who is buying his own house. He is helping to pay off the loan charges on the house, and at present, if he pays £1,800 for the house, that is an average rent of about £30 a year over sixty years, it goes towards the buying of the house for the corporation. It is quite true that the house will not be worth £1,800. It is not going to be a very considerable asset at the end of sixty years, but in another ten on twenty years some of this house will be coming into its possession.
  Again, it has to be borne in mind that our local authorities are running their housing services. Part of that is a function normally carried out by the estate agent for the tenants. A part of it is a social service and the cost of that social service is being borne, apart from the question of the subsidy that is being paid, not by the general ratepayer, but out of the housing fund and is chargeable to the housing fund. That is another point to be borne in mind when we are considering exactly what it is that the municipal tenant has to pay.
  This Bill is a blow to municipal building. It is a blow at the poorer section of the population, and the vast majority of people who are being rehoused at the present time find difficulty in affording the present rent let alone the increased rent. This bad Bill distributes the burdens of the nation harshly and unfairly, and is deliberately intended to sabotage municipal house building. It is intended as a boon to the moneylenders and landlords, and, as such, I and my colleagues will certainly oppose it. I hope that even at this late stage the Bill may be withdrawn.
  9.38 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): I am sorry if I have curtailed the remarks of the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. J. Silverman). I know that it is sometimes felt, and more often said, in debates of this kind that the
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  share of available time taken by the Front Benches is too much. I have certainly felt that myself. Nevertheless, I feel that it will meet the wishes of the House if I attempt at this juncture to deal with some of the main points which have arisen on the first day of the two days of our debate.
  I must certainly begin by acknowledging the two maiden speeches which we have heard today, one by my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkdale (Mr. N. Pannell) and the other by my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Miss Vickers). Quite apart from the merits of their speeches, I think that we can all commend their courage in choosing such a day and such a debate to make a maiden speech. I think that a good many of us would not have selected this particular occasion on which to speak. Clearly they both have a taste for the fray. Some of us knew that in the case of the hon. Lady. We hope that we shall hear from them again.
  The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren), throughout his speech, displayed a mood of the blackest pessimism. I hope that his forthcoming journey, on which I wish him bon voyage, will act as something of a restorative. I feel that he did not apply his considerable knowledge of these matters to the Bill or to the speech which my right hon. Friend had just concluded. He made some sweeping assertions, three of which were that the Bill would kill the provision of general need houses, kill the new towns and kill the expanding towns. I must take issue with him on two of those assertions, which are quite contradictory.
  The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He forecast big increases in rent, and he also said that the Bill will mean the end of local authority building for general needs. If the second assertion is true, then the first must be wrong, because if the general needs building ends, no new burden will be imposed on local authorities. All houses in existence are, of course, on the old rates of subsidy. My hon. Friend assumed a figure of 80,000 for general needs, but, if it is less, the burden decreases.
  We have had, not only from the hon. Member for Wellingborough, but also from many other speakers, a variety of estimates of the financial consequences of the Bill. Figures were given by the right

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  hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson), by the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman), who also referred to flats, and by the right hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Key).
  I will say something at this juncture about the gap between the figures given by my right hon. Friend earlier this afternoon and the figures which have been given by other speakers. I do not think that the gap can be altogether satisfactorily explained by mere hyperbole. If we omit the proportion of slums and overspill which was foreshadowed by my right hon. Friend—that is, approximately, 80,000 out of 160,000—and if we also omit the pool of houses on higher subsidy, which nearly all local authorities possess—I am not saying anything about rent rebates in connection with this—then I agree that there is no reason to doubt the estimates of theoretical increases, and I must stress that they were theoretical increases, which were given by right hon. and hon. Members opposite, although I have no doubt that they were given in perfectly good faith. But those factors which were omitted do apply and are most relevant to the argument.
  Mr. Bevan: Earlier today the Minister himself gave a very interesting piece of arithmetic in which he assumed that all the local authorities would spread over all the housing pools the cost of new housing. That, also, could be no more than abstract and theoretical.
  Mr. Deedes: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, theory, like truth, is many sided. I am dealing with my side of it.
  Where there is no adequate pool, as my right hon. Friend went to some pains to explain, there are other provisions in the Bill. There have been a good many practical suggestions from both sides of the House, with many of which I shall not attempt to deal because, frankly, they are more suitable for consideration at a later stage of the Bill. However, I will mention one to which reference was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham. North (Sir A. Hudson).
  My hon. Friend thought that if we were going to have rent rebate schemes, something in the nature of a model clause might be advisable for the guidance of
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  local authorities. I would only say that anyone who has any knowledge of the schemes in existence will recognise the difficulty of providing local authorities with a central or even a skeleton scheme, because, in considering their requirements, no two local authorities will be dealing with identical economic circumstances.
  It is not a question of shirking a disagreeable task or of leaving the local authorities to do the difficult work. Even if we produced some central scheme or model clause, it would have to be implemented locally, and by far the hardest task of all is presenting and introducing the idea to the tenants, and that would have to be left to the local authorities.
  I do not think that the question of rents can be exhaustively discussed without some reference to current earnings. The hon. Lady the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet), who I am sorry is not in her place because I have a reply to make to her speech, told us that the London County Council was perturbed by the terms of the Bill. I should like to say that, of all the arguments and calculations which I have seen on the subject, or rather all the matters relating to what we have had under discussion—although not specifically in the Bill—among the most impressive were those of the London County Council, recorded on 21st October in the Manchester Guardian. That was as the result of a Press conference called by the chairman of the Housing Committee to discuss the increase in rents which I think most hon. Members are aware the L.C.C. have found it necessary to put on nearly all of their 175,000 dwellings.
  I have been looking at the report of the remarks made by Mr. Fiske, the committee chairman, I think I am right in saying, of the biggest housing authority in the world. Therefore, these remarks bear looking at. I quote from the Manchester Guardian:
  "He pointed out that since the last increase in L.C.C. rents average earnings had risen by over 30s. The council, he said, did not think the proposed increases in rent would absorb a disproportionate part of the additional earnings. ‖
  He was asked if further reduction in Government subsidies would lead to further rent increases. Mr. Fiske said he was giving a strictly personal reply "—

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  I stress that—
  "in suggesting that it would probably not do so because the amount of new building formed such a small proportion of the council's overall housing resources."
  That is the point which bears out at least one purpose of the Bill presented by my right hon. Friend.
  In connection with that conference the London County Councl issued a table. I dislike making too much out of any statistics to prove a case, because there are always statistics on the other side, but these statistics, I think, are not unfair. According to them, in 1939 net rent took 14·7 per cent. and gross rent 20·5 per cent. of earnings. In 1946 those figures were respectively 9·2 and 13·1, and in 1955 the figures were 7·3 and 10·8. There are only two points on that which I should like to stress.
  Mr. Bevan: Were those earnings for London?
  Mr. Deedes: I assume that the figures apply to earnings in the London area.
  Mr. Bevan: Upon what basis are those figures taken? Has the L.C.C. taken an estimate of earnings among its tenants?
  Mr. Deedes: I think that I quoted clearly from the Manchester Guardian. Those figures were issued by the London County Council in connection with its conference on the subject of its rent increases.
  Mr. Bevan: But they could not be related to the London County Council tenants unless the council had taken a complete inventory of the earnings.
  Mr. Deedes: I assume that it has taken a total relating to the London area which, after all, is the area mainly concerning its tenants. I do not pretend for a moment that the figures go outside the range of the Metropolitan area.
  Mr. A. Evans: The hon. Member will know that the figures of average earnings quoted in the L.C.C. minutes are figures extracted from the Ministry of Labour Gazette. They are the average earnings for the whole of the country. I would cidd that those average earnings will bear a certain further measure of increased rent. That further measure of increased rent will go on on 1st January. The increased earnings can only bear a certain
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  addition of increased rent. They have already done that, but the Minister seeks to apply a further addition.
  Mr. Deedes: I am grateful to the hon. Member for putt'ng a wider interpretation on the figures than I gave and for giving me the source. The figure given shows that in respect of both gross and net rent the percentage is half what it was in 1939. I am not saying that it was the right level in 1939. It is today half, but also, and perhaps even more important, the percentage of earnings taken up by rent, net or gross, is appreciably lower than it was in 1946, when the Socialist Government established a system of subsidies which, with variations, has prevailed ever since.
  Mr. Sparks: What is the need for this?
  Mr. Deedes: I think it is fair to quote the London County Council figures which show the relationship of today's figures with those in 1939 and in 1946.
  Mr. Mitchison: May I point out that, for the purpose of housing subsidies, the notional figure has always been 10 per cent. of earnings? There is not the least doubt about that. What the Government are doing now is to increase it to a figure well above that.
  Mr. Deedes: I do not want to associate myself with any particular figure, but those figures which were given by the London County Council are not irrelevant to the discussions which we are having on the relationship between rents.
  I want to move on to what has been said by the hon. Lady the Member for Peckham and by many other hon. Members—those in London and in reception areas—about the new towns and expanding towns. The hon. Lady thought that this Bill was a setback for expanding towns and for overspill. We think, on the contrary, that it will prove a stimulus. She said that some of the small country towns were getting extremely worried. I represent one of those towns, and I have followed this question of overspill for many years and I have a clear idea of where I think this Bill is going to help.
  There should be no misunderstanding: the Government are convinced of the need of vast overspill schemes, and that is why a special rate of subsidy has been given. The alternative is the continued sprawl

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  of the cities, the erosion of the Green Belt and a multiplication of all the evils that we associate with unrestricted urbanisation.
  A variety of schemes are afoot for relief of congestion, and many hon. Members are interested in them. I think it will be helpful if, so far as I can, I mention two or three of the principal categories and explain what the subsidy might be in each case. I must ask the House to forgive me for going rather rapidly through a technical matter.
  First, let me take the example of a straight-forward scheme of which Salford and Worsley, within the knowledge of some hon. Members present, is an example, where a country district has agreed to house 15,000 from a county borough. There will be no substantial movement of industry, and, therefore, it is possible for Salford to nominate virtually 100 per cent. of the migrating tenants from their housing list. That is the first example. It is an example of overspill which means that £24 will be payable under this Act for each new house at Worsley. Salford, I believe, has already agreed to pay contributions in addition.
  The second example, which may be much more familiar to hon. Members, is the example of London and Bletchley, under the Town Development Act. Bletchley is an expanding town. This is an arrangement whereby the exporting authority pledged a contribution in respect of every tenant nominated from the housing list, but because industry has moved as well as population, many of the tenants, as key workers, have gone at the request of their firms and not because of housing need.
  Certainly hon. Members in the London area will be aware that this has led to arguments about the circumstances of individual tenants. We are satisfied that the situation at the moment is not very clear and urgently requires clarification. Henceforth Bletchley will qualify for £24 Exchequer subsidy per house. The Exchequer will pay an additional £8 for 10 years in respect of every tenant leaving London for Bletchley, and we shall reclaim the 50 per cent. or £4, whichever is less, from London. That is a fair average representing the nominated tenants leaving London for Bletchley.
  Mr. Sparks: When the hon. Gentleman refers to nominated tenants, does he mean that the local authority has the
  898
  right to nominate individuals from its housing list?
  Mr. Deedes: That is the current system. Under the fresh system, the figure will be 50 per cent. on average.
  The third category is where the L.C.C. and other authorities have acquired, under the Town Development Act, outlying land beyond the Green Belt and proposes to build for itself housing for overspill population. On this point I was asked specific questions. For example, London County Council is acquiring land at Edenbridge; Waltham-stow and other local authorities have acquired land, in some cases by means of compulsory purchase orders, in Basildon urban district, Brentwood urban district and Canvey Island. Were these schemes—rather hybrid creatures at the moment—to become genuine town development schemes they could qualify for a higher subsidy under the Bill. It is not for me to say whether such arrangements would be possible between the authorities concerned, but to qualify for the higher subsidy an agreement under the Town Development Act would be necessary.
  Such an agreement would have to provide for the reception area authorities to own the houses. Moreover, assuming that industry moves as well as population—and therefore not all tenants could be nominated from housing lists—an additional contribution of £8 would be payable from the Exchequer, of which £4 would be recovered by the Minister from the appropriate exporting authority. I apologise for the fact that this point is extremely difficult to follow, but it involves a number of local authorities and the interests of a number of hon. Members.
  Mr. Sparks: It is not a fair proposition.
  Mr. Deedes: I hope that what I have said may be of assistance to hon. Members before they speak on Monday. They will at least be able to read what I have said in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Elwyn Jones: Would the hon. Gentleman consider not rushing these matters like this? There is no need to complete them in a few minutes. Could not we have the privilege of considering what he has said over the week-end? The Parliamentary Secretary can open the debate on Monday.
  Mr. Deedes: I have endeavoured to give the hon. and learned Member as much information in a short time as I could. I am sorry if I failed to make it as clear to him as he would wish.
  As my right hon. Friend said, our housing is entering the latest phase of a continuous policy. In this phase our main task will be slum clearance and the decentralisation of our worst-congested cities. Both are very large social undertakings, and we regard both as urgent. As the Bill makes plain, we propose to have them at the forefront to give them priority, but they remain part of our housing policy, and that policy cannot be isolated from the nation's general economic background. In other words, in the present climate we cannot expect to give fresh impetus to a big sector of the housing field and ignore the disquieting growth of cost to the Exchequer.
  We believe that to ignore this burden —treble what it was before the Second World War and double what it was only five years ago—might in the long run imperil the whole programme, and we are not embarking upon slum clearance with that shadow over our shoulders. We have to inject a little realism into our housing finances. We are now basing our proposals on our still expensive but not extravagant Exchequer aid, and we think that this is the only way in which we shall see this thing through.
  Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Legh.]
  Debate to be resumed upon Monday next.

  VALIDATION OF ELECTIONS (No. 3) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  9.59 p.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is a Bill to validate the election of Mr. Charles Howell, who was elected a Member for Perry Barr, and to relieve him of all penal consequences incurred by sitting as a voting Member of this House while holding an office of profit. I hope that this will be the last occasion upon which anyone has to move the Second Reading of a Bill of this character.
  I should make it clear that when Mr. Howell was appointed he received a communication telling him that no fees were
  900
  payable to him, but that strictly, under the Acts under which he was appointed, it lay within the power of the Minister to provide for the payment of fees. Therefore, the office was clearly one of profit and a Select Committee which was appointed to consider the matter came to that conclusion. The Select Committee recommended that a Bill of this character should be introduced. That is the reason why the Government have brought it forward at the earliest possible opportunity, with the hope that it will pass through all its stages this evening.
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: There can be no doubt that the Bill ought to receive the unanimous support of the House. I would merely like to call attention to two facts, one of which has been mentioned already by the Attorney-General, that is to say, that in the Ministerial notice inviting this gentleman to take up this small office it was clearly stated that no fees are payable. If, of course, he had had to investigate the possibilities he would have had to go behind that notice and look up the two rather long statutes from which he could have found that fees could be paid by the Minister, with the consent of the Treasury.
  The second point, which the right hon. and learned Gentleman may have mentioned already, is that, in fact, in no circumstances was any remuneration whatever received by Mr. Howell. I hope that when we come to consideration of the principles of this matter, as we shall have to do soon in Committee, we shall bear this case in mind.
  10.2 p.m.
  Mr. Walter Elliot: The Select Committee was unanimously of the opinion that there should be complete exoneration of Mr. Howell, and after hearing him we were convinced that he was in no way to blame for the unfortunate sequence of events in which he found himself involved. In fact, it was from his original inquiry that the case first came to light.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Legh.]
  Bill immediately considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS' FUND
  10.4 p.m.
  Mr. S. P. Viant: I beg to move,
  That, in pursuance of the provisions of section three of the House of Commons Members' Fund Act, 1948, the maximum annual amounts of the periodical payments which may be made out of the House of Commons Members' Fund under the House of Commons Members' Fund Act, 1939, as amended by the said Act of 1948, be varied as from the first day of December, nineteen hundred and fifty-five, as follows:—

  (a) in paragraph 1 of the First Schedule to the said Act of 1939, as so amended (which provides that the annual amount of any periodical payment made to any person by virtue of his past membership of the House of Commons shall not exceed two hundred and fifty pounds or such sum as, in the opinion of the trustees, will bring his income up to three hundred and twenty-five pounds per annum, whichever is the less), for the words "two hundred and fifty pounds" there shall be substituted the words "three hundred pounds" and for the words "three hundred and twenty-five pounds" there shall be substituted the words "three hundred and seventy-five pounds";

  (b) in paragraph 2 of the said Schedule (which provides that the annual amount of any periodical payment made to any person by virtue of her being the widow of a past member of the House of Commons shall not exceed one hundred and fifty pounds or such sum as, in the opinion of the trustees, will bring her income up to two hundred and twenty-five pounds per annum, whichever is the less), for the words "one hundred and fifty pounds" there shall be substituted the words "one hundred and eighty pounds" and for the words "two hundred and twenty-five pounds" there shall be substituted the words "two hundred and fifty-five pounds";

  (c) in paragraph 2A of the said Schedule (under which the annual amount of any periodical payment made to any person by virtue of his being the widower of a past member of the House of Commons is not to exceed one hundred and fifty pounds or such sum as, in the opinion of the trustees, will bring his income up to two hundred and twenty-five pounds per annum, whichever is the less), for the words "one hundred and fifty pounds" there shall be substituted the words "one hundred and eighty pounds" and for the words "two hundred and twenty-five pounds" there shall be substituted the words "two hundred and fifty-five pounds".

  I am pleased to be able to report that the Trustees of the House of Commons Members' Fund find themselves in a financial position which will enable us to raise the grant to ex-Members by £50 a year and the grant to the widows of ex-Members by £30 a year.
  902
  I hope that the House will give its assent to this Motion. The increased grant will be very welcome to those concerned, and, I think, will be a nice gesture at this time of the year, as we hope to be able to start payment from 1st December.
  Mr. Walter Elliot: I beg formally to second the Motion.
  Question put and agreed to.

  BRITISH SOMALIS, THE OGADEN
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr.Barber.]
  10.5 p.m.
  Mr. James Johnson: The Labour Party, when in office from 1945 onwards, suffered a constant stream of criticism, almost abuse, for its handling of our colonial affairs from the party opposite, which said that it could handle things a good deal better. This does not seem to be the case in the present handling of affairs in North-East Africa, because tonight I have part of an unhappy take to tell in connection with the border of Ethiopia, In the days of the late Sir Stafford Cripps there was talk about "the liquidation of the Empire," but the party opposite seems to be contemplating evacuating—I will not use the unkind word "scuttle"—the Nile valley; first Egypt, then the Sudan, and now, of course, part of the Haud and the reserve area on the edge of the north border of Somaliland.
  This chapter began almost a year ago, when two dignified sheikhs and Mr. Michael Mariano came to London and saw the Secretary of State, who was most impressed by their dignity, their bearing and their case. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you will remember that earlier this year we had a debate, opened by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), when we on this side protested against the Somaliland (Ethiopia) Order in Council, 1955. We did not get very far with that, but to be quite fair I want to say that the Minister, who is always courteous, was not unsympathetic. The dusty answer emanated from the Foreign Office which is, I think, the villain of the piece. I think that the Minister is

  903
  on our side tonight, and at the end of this debate I look for a sympathetic answer from him.
  The fears and apprehensions which we then expressed about the future conduct of the Ethiopians have been amply justified and I have documentary evidence—as well as the accounts of journalists who were present at the silver jubilee celebrations at Addis Ababa—that about the end cf August last five Gherri tribesmen were hung in a most brutal fashion. To be fair, I must say that I understand that the Emperor of Ethiopia later commuted the death sentence on 25 other Gherri people, and only last wek I believe that five were released from gaol.
  What of the other abuses. There has been the arrest of chiefs, Akils and tribesmen. Chief local authorities and others who were wandering with their peoples in this area in the west of Somaliland have been arrested. I have here ample evidence, which has been checked, about what is happening. On no fewer than nine occasions Akils and tribal chiefs have been arrested by the Ethiopian authorities. The Akils have been released but, of course, we get no apologies or explanations for this kind of behaviour on the part of the Ethiopian authorities. The ninth occasion has been different, because, there, the chief local authority of Hargeisa was taken into custody. I have asked Questions about him in the House during the last few days and we have had some most interesting Answers. I want to make some short comments upon those Answers, and to offer one or two suggestions to the Minister.
  On 7th November, in answer to a Question, I was told that Mr. Mohammed Begorreh, the chief local authority of Hargeisa had been put in gaol in JigJigga and charged with membership of an unlawful secret society. That is complete nonsense—if anything it is a political society and he was working with his own people and his own tribe.
  These are great days in Ethiopia, with the silver jubilee and a new Constitution, and I hope that this new constitution will grant freedom of discussion, freedom of assembly, expression and the like as provided for under Article 3 (1) of the Agreement. If freedom of assembly, discussion and expression is to be allowed in Ethiopia, why cannot our own British-
  904
  protected Somalis have this liberty under the new Constitution. Why cannot we alter Article 3 (1) of the Agreement here?
  Fortunately for our debate tonight, most of these facts are known and have been checked by reputable journalists who have been to the jubilee celebrations. They are men whose names are well known in the columns of the Daily Express, the Daily Telegraph and similar reputable Conservative newspapers. Again, the agreement of 1955 does permit the liaison officer to attend the trial of any of our people who have been picked up by the Ethiopian police or soldiers. What good is it to have this new Agreement if the liaison officer is not able to go there, since there are no trials, because our people are simply picked up and detained for some months—in one or two cases 12 months—in gaols or awaiting possible future trials?
  The case of Mohammed Begorreh was the first time when our liaison officer has had a chance to attend in court. In this matter of producing bodies and allowing men to be sent to gaol, why cannot we use Article 5 of the Agreement? In the United Kingdom, of course, the basic elementary principle is that of habeas corpus. Why must these people languish for month after month in gaol without being told what their alleged offences are, or being allowed to come into open court? I think this is mediirval, barbarous, and, as I said a week or two ago, uncivilised behaviour on the part of the Ethiopians.
  One other comment I want to make relates to the Answer to a Question which I asked in the House. The Ethiopian authorities have acknowledged only in this case of Mohammed Begorreh that the liaison officer was allowed to attend the trial. In that Answer, I was told:
  "The right of the British liaison officer to attend the trial, which exists under the AngloEthiopian Agreement of 1954, has been specifically acknowledged in this case by the Ethiopian authorities."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1955; Vol. 545, c. 1477.]
  I think myself that he might attend on all occasions and in all cases, and that that was implicit in the Agreement which was signed by the present Prime Minister, who was then Foreign Secretary, with the Abyssinian Minister some time ago.
  If the régime of terror—I use the word advisedly—persists in this area, tribal organisations cannot function, because what happens is that our protected people, the Somalis, these Akils will not go from the vicinity of Hargeisa on our side of

  905
  the line to this particular area, because they are afraid of being picked up and put away by the Ethiopians. Again, I have authority for saying that the Ethiopians are setting up their own organisation, in contradistinction to the legal and traditional ones on our side. The term which I might use here is one which was used 10 or 15 years ago; they are setting up their own Quislings inside these areas.
  Will the Minister investigate this, and make sure that all these points are put when we have this conference at the end of the month—30th November—in Harar? In an Answer to a Question on 10th November, I was told that we have made complaints in Addis Ababa and spoken to the Ethiopian Minister for Foreign Affairs. The Vice-Governor of Harar Province has welcomed the proposal for the meeting to be held later this month, which, I gather, is 30th November. I hope that these points will be put at that meeting and that we shall maintain what was written into the agreement—that our liaison officers should attend on all these occasions and that we should be allowed to have our own organisation functioning inside this area.
  Does the agreement allow British tribal organisations to function without let or hindrance and to move all over the Haud and the Reserve Areas? I understand that this is not only grazing land, but that some is agricultural land. It has been suggested by the Ethiopians that certain areas which have always been held to be grazing land are, in fact, agricultural land and they are preventing our tribal organisations from moving into this patch of land on those grounds. Will the Minister kindly find out what is happening?
  May I say a word about social services and, particularly, education? Our education services in Somaliland lag behind what the Italians are giving and have given on their side of the line in what was Italian Somaliland. I understand that we have two, or possibly more, Somali students in the United Kingdom, wheras the Italians may send 200, 250 or more to Rome to study higher education there.
  May I make another point about this area outside Somaliland proper? I gather that the Ethiopians, contrary to the terms of the Agreement made this year, are interfering with the Aw Barreh
  906
  school and that this and another school nearby have been closed. Would the Minister look into this and discover what is happening?
  Lastly, and briefly, I turn to the future. I want to give the Minister ample time to answer my questions. What is to happen when the Somalis are given self-government? We have Eritrea to the north and what was Italian Somaliland to the south of our British territory. It is not unlikely, if and when we give self-government to the local people, that we shall have another "Israeli-Arab dispute." In all likelihod, the fighting will then begin in this part of the world. The Somalis fear that in that event the Ethiopians may offer to give them back this area of the Haud and the Reserve Area which we have made over to Ethiopia recently, but perhaps on some political conditions, perhaps if they agree to some kind of political control.
  If they look north they see Eritrea, which is now part of Abyssinia. There is no doubt that the Ethiopians look upon British Somaliland as another "lost province" and as a province which, in the future, might be in the same position as that of Eritrea now. Doubtless they have maps in their schools in Addis Ababa showing this, but the Somalis to whom I have talked do not look upon this with any enthusiasm.
  All the Somalis I have spoken to look upon their future as being linked with Italian Somaliland. They look upon a greater or larger Somaliland based upon Muslim religion and culture and past history because, as far as I can make out, Somaliland has never been part of Ethiopia or Abyssinia. Their future does lie in a united Somaliland of that kind, where Berber looks South towards Mogadishu and not West towards Addis Ababa. I hope that the Minister will look that way. I trust that he will take a firm stand and do his best for these likeable Somalis who, after all, are in our care. We are their guardians and they look to us to look after them in these difficult and dangerous times.
  10.21 p.m.
  The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs (Mr. Henry Hopkinson): I feel sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House will be grateful to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) for raising tonight the position of the British

  907
  Somali tribes in the areas of Ethiopia covered by the Anglo-Ethiopian Agreement of November last year.
  The knowledge of the hon. Member on this subject and his sympathy with the British Somalis are well known. Those sympathies are shared by us all, and my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary and I, on frequent occasions in the House, have made clear the determination of Her Majesty's Government to ensure that the rights of the Somalis under the Agreement are fully respected. In winding up the debate on the Anglo-Ethiopian Agreement in the Adjournment debate on 25th February this year, I said that we were entitled to expect the Ethiopian Government to see that the Agreement was carried out both in the letter and in the spirit, and with full regard to the interests and feelings of the British Somali tribes.
  I regret to have to inform the House that experience appears to show that many of the actions of the Ethiopian authorities in the execution of the Agreement have proved to be neither in accord with the letter nor the spirit of that Agreement, and that very naturally is causing great concern to Her Majesty's Government. While it is correct to say that the Agreement is operated fairly in the south and east of the areas which it covers, known as the Haud, serious difficulties have arisen in the area north and west of Giggiga which is commonly described as the Reserved Area.
  As the hon. Member has indicated, these difficulties fall broadly into four categories. First, the Akils and the leaders of the tribal organisations, as well as the IIIaloes, the tribal police, have been arrested and prevented from doing their work. Akils and leaders have been arrested on nine occasions, as the hon. Member said. In eight cases their release was obtained after representation from the British liaison officer.
  In the ninth case, however, the elder concerned, Mohammed Begorreh, is still in prison and is to be tried on 19th November. Details of the charges were given by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in reply to the Question asked by the hon. Member on 7th November, and I do not think that I can usefully add anything to that reply, except to say this. First of all, of course, the charge to which the hon. Member
  908
  referred was in fact reduced to a different charge of breaking the law, Secondly, there was the question of the attendance of British liaison officers at the trials of Somalis under Article III (b) of the Haud Agreement.
  A member of the tribe from the Protectorate who uses the territories covered by the Agreement for the purposes of grazing is tried by an Ethiopian Court if he is concerned in a case involving Ethiopians, but a British liaison officer or a member of his staff has the right to be present in court and is given an opportunity to provide any relevant information. That right has been specifically acknowledged by the Ethiopians in the case of Mohammed Begorreh. I imagine that right has never been exercised before because there has been no trial.
  I was not aware of the complaints of very long periods of detention to which the hon. Gentleman referred but I will certainly look into them. I would only say in regard to the case of Mohammed Begorreh that the British Consul at Harar, according to information received since the reply to which I have referred was given to the hon. Gentleman, is now assisting him in making the arrangements for his defence.
  The second matter which has given rise to difficulties has been the appointment by the Ethiopians of their own Akils—Quislings the hon. Gentleman called them—among British-protected tribes in the Haud and in the Reserved Area. This has been accompanied by pressure brought to bear on British-protected tribesmen to declare themselves Ethiopian subjects.
  Thirdly, the Ethiopian authorities have restricted the free operation of the social services by the Protectorate Government in the areas covered by the Agreement in accordance with Article III (c) of that Agreement. In particular, they have on several occasions tried to close down the school at Aw Barreh and have refused to allow education officers from the Protectorate to visit the school. That, too, is clearly a breach of the Agreement.
  Finally, the Ethiopians have converted tribal grazing land to agriculture, contrary to the undertaking given by both sides in Article II of the Agreement to ensure that as far as possible tribal grazing rights in the area shall be protected.

  909
  As it has become clear that repeated representations by the British Liaison Officer at Giggiga to the local Ethiopian authorities have not sufficed to resolve these difficulties, discussions are now being arranged between the British and Ethiopian representatives at Harar which it is hoped will take place at the end of this month. We do not know the exact date. These difficulties are unquestionably both numerous and complicated. They arise on the ground, and they should, if possible, be solved on the ground. That is why these talks are to be held in Harar.
  I am glad to say that the Ethiopian authorities have welcomed these discussions and have suggested that some at least of the difficulties may have been caused by the actions of junior Ethiopian officials. It is something to get that admission. I feel sure that it is the hope of all of us that these talks will be crowned with success.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the position of Somali settlers in the Reserved Area. I must here explain that the Agreement was designed primarily to cover the position of the large numbers of nomadic tribesmen who cross and recross the frontier into Ethiopia in the course of seasonal migrations with their stock. Some of these tribesmen practice intermittent agriculture as a subsidiary to grazing, while others have settled permanently. In this situation, with these different categories of persons, it is not surprising that difficulties have arisen about the working of the Agreement in areas of mixed agricultural and grazing land. These difficulties we hope will be discussed also at the Harar meeting.
  I referred earlier to the pressure on British Somalis to become Ethiopian subjects. Some of the permanent settlers have voluntarily become Ethiopian nationals even though they are members of tribes which are under British protection. Others, again, have adopted Ethiopian nationality in an effort to obtain greater security on their land or for other reasons. In this connection the House should know that assurances were given by the Ethiopian Government at the time the Treaty was signed that any duly acquired property rights within the reserved area and the Ogaden would, of
  910
  course, be respected provided that no forcible expropriation had been involved. Those were the terms of the assurance given to us.
  The hon. Member also raised—and this was in my opinion the most important point—the question of the future political development of Somaliland and the Somali fear, of which we are all aware, of Ethiopian domination. I can assure him that Her Majesty's Government fully appreciate the importance of this, and are giving very careful thought to the future development of the Protectorate.
  While I am in no position to make a statement on the subject at the moment, I can assure the House that Her Majesty's Government have no intention whatever of abandoning their responsibilities in the Protectorate so long as the inhabitants of the Protectorate wish us to discharge those responsibilities. We have, of course, been obliged to fulfil our legal obligations to the Ethiopians under the 1897 Treaty, out those obligations have now been fully discharged, and we have no others of a similar kind towards Ethiopia or towards any other Power.
  As regards the wider issue of future developments in the Horn of Africa, once the Trusteeship Territory of Somalia becomes independent in 1960, I would only say this. That also is a most important question. At this stage, I can only say that the House may be assured that the main factors determining Her Majesty's Government's attitude towards future problems which concern the Protectorate and Somalia will be the wishes and the interests of the Somali peoples themselves.
  I am glad to have had this opportunity of informing the House and, indeed, many others in this country who are seriously concerned about the position of British Somalis in Ethiopian territory, of the difficulties which have arisen. I think it is much better that we should say these things fully and frankly.
  The Anglo-Ethiopian Agreement is of a type which can only work satisfactorily when there is co-operation and good will on both sides. I am sorry to say that I cannot, at the moment, say that we have

  911
  had all the co-operation from the Ethiopian authorities for which we had hoped.
  Mr. J. Johnson: Is it not possible to meet the Ethiopians at intervals of time in order to discuss the working of the Agreement and even to alter the actual wording of the Agreement in the light of any unsatisfactory parts of it? Is that not written into the Agreement of last year.
  Mr. Hopkinson: No, Sir, but I think we can say that this meeting at Harar is the first step in the business of getting the working of the Agreement discussed.
  I was referring to co-operation from the Ethiopian authorities in its execution. I think that, having regard to the background of close and friendly relations which exist between our two countries, and the past services rendered by this country to Ethiopia and not least to the Emperor himself, we had the right to expect.
  Of the good will felt in this country towards Ethiopia, which was very evident during the Emperor's visit to Britain last year, there can be no doubt. But the various incidents that have occurred during the last few months have, understandably, aroused strong feeling among the Somali people. The existence of this feeling can do no good to either side.
  I hope that the forthcoming discussions will afford an opportunity to clear up difficulties and misunderstandings. I must emphasise once again that Her Majesty's Government intend to ensure that the rights of the Somali tribes under the 'Anglo-Ethiopian Agreement are fully respected, just as the Agreement is being fully and faithfully carried out on our part.
  10.34 p.m.
  Mr. C. J. M. Alport: want to say, very briefly, that we on the Government back benches very much welcome the firm statement which my right hon. Friend has made on this point. It is unfair to the Emperor to blame him entirely for the situation which has arisen in this border area of Somaliland and Ethiopia, because it has been widely known to anyone who knows that part of the world that the Emperor's writ runs even today only a very short distance outside this border.
  I warn my right hon. Friend that it is not going to be possible to get the Ethiopian authorities to carry out their undertakings if we are to rely simply upon assurances given to us by the Foreign Office in Addis Ababa. These matters have to be settled with the Rases on the spot. If we can get their co-operation we shall get some results, but it will be extremely difficult to do that because there is no proper sanction that we can exert against them.
  I would merely like to ask my right hon. Friend whether, if the Ethiopian authorities are unable to carry out their part of the Agreement, we have a right —anyhow, a moral right—to resume our control over these areas to ensure that the rights of British-protected subjects in British Somaliland are properly safeguarded in accordance with the wishes of the people.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at twenty-four minutes to Eleven o'clock.

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  Migrants to Canada (Passage Money)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Film Industry (Survey)
  Film Industry (Survey)
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  Monopolies Commission (Cost)
TRANSPORT
  Bus Operators' Appeals
  Bus Operators' Appeals
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Coal Gas Poisoning (Fatal Accidents)
  Coal Gas Poisoning (Fatal Accidents)
WIRELESS
  Parliamentary Debates (Broadcast Discussions)
  Parliamentary Debates (Broadcast Discussions)
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FUEL AND POWER
  Grid Line 275 kV
  Grid Line 275 kV
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  Domestic Coal Supplies, West Sussex
MINISTRY OF PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Departmental Premises, Glasgow (Adaptation)
  Departmental Premises, Glasgow (Adaptation)
SCOTLAND
  Engineering and Technology (Students)
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MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Engine Testing, Ansty Aerodrome
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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Lord Stewart of Garlies (E. Galloway)—Took the Oath.

SECURITY AND STATE SERVICE CANDIDATES
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a more detailed statement can be given concerning the secret "positive vetting" of candidates for the State service; and whether the knowledge that such inquiries have become part of the system of recruiting may not corrupt from the beginning those relations of free inquiry, candour and confidence which are the very foundation of true education.]
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, the noble Viscount's Question is concerned with the effect of "positive vetting" on candidates desiring to enter the Civil Service. I believe I can reassure the noble Lord by saying that positive vetting is not applied to candidates and it comes into operation only after they have been accepted into the Civil Service, and then only in a limited number of cases, often at a much later stage in their career. At the time of recruitment, however, the candidate is informed of the statement of policy made in 1943, that there is certain work, the nature of which is vital to the security of the State, in which he cannot be employed if he is believed to be either (1) a member of the Communist Party or of a Fascist organisation or (2) associated with either the Communist Party or a Fascist organisation in such a way as to raise legitimate doubts about his reliability. Should the candidate fall into this class he is aware that posts in certain Departments, and certain posts in other Departments, will rot be open to him.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl for his reply which, of course, states the facts as they are well known. The point of my Question is quite different. It is this. When a young man intends to enter the Foreign Service, is there not grave danger that he may put up a facade, concealing his real opinions, and that thereby you may get a bad candidate, while, on the other hand, a candidate who is frank might know that thereby he is jeopardising his chances?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I see no need for a candidate to conceal his real opinion when he conies before the Civil Service Commissioners, because they are not concerned at all with security regulations. There is no reason at all why the suggestion of the noble Viscount is likely to occur so far as entrance into the Civil Service is concerned.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: How about the Foreign Service?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: So far as I am aware, my remark applies to the Foreign Service so far as entry is concerned.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I have great confidence in the statement made on this subject by the Prime Minister, but might I ask a further question: who decides how these inquiries are to he made? Does the committee of senior civil servants decide who is to ask the questions and of whom questions are to be asked?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, that matter goes much 'wider than the noble Viscount's question. His question related to the entry of candidates into the Civil Service. He is now asking a question which covers the whole ground of security vetting, a much wider matter which has, I believe, already been dealt with fairly fully by my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in the course of their remarks last week.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, perhaps I framed my Question badly. A candidate is a person who intends to enter the Service. My fear is that if you tell young men at a university that a private inquiry of this type is to take place at any moment it may cramp their educational freedom, causing them to pretend that they hold opinions that they do not hold or to conceal opinions that they do I hold.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I find it very hard to accept the noble Viscount's point. Present policy is exactly that laid down in 1948 by the Prime Minister, except for this extension: that the investigation is now perhaps a little more thorough. Parties on both sides of the House are, I believe, fully agreed that some form of security test of that character is now necessary.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I must apologise to the House and to the noble Earl, but the fact that some other Government did it does not affect my mind in any way on this question. I am concerned with what I believe to be a very deep principle of our constitutional liberties—namely, that there should not be secret inquiries. Positive vetting is quite different from asking whether anything is known against a man. You are sending someone to ask questions of someone else. Does the committee of senior civil servants decide what inquiries are to be made and who is to make those inquiries, and from whom?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Viscount now wants a statement on positive vetting which is not at all the question he has raised. I do not know whether, when the noble Viscount speaks of "senior civil servants," he means the three men who are the court of appeal. They do not decide; they are a court of appeal, as the noble Viscount knows. Is the noble Viscount referring to private inquiries of the Privy Council? The matter has, I believe, already been fairly well explained by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I must apologise, but, quite unwittingly I am sure, the noble Earl is missing the real issue here. I am asking this: who says that this or that professor or this or that person shall be questioned secretly and asked what he thought of this young man when he was in his charge? How far can that go? When the noble Earl says that the committee know nothing of this he makes the situation worse, for
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these private agencies may soon become a private empire. I am asking, therefore who does decide? To give your Lordships an extreme case, would it be possible to ask a son what he thought of his father's opinions? These things have happened elsewhere.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the noble Viscount is stretching his imagination quite a long way. He asked a Question about candidates for the Civil Service and I have told him that there is no security vetting in regard to candidates. That was the force of my answer. The noble Viscount now wants a full statement, going beyond that already made, in regard to the general question of security vetting; but, with respect, that does not arise on this Question. We are following a procedure that has been going on for quite a time and I see no reason why even the remotest suggestion should be made that this affects academic freedom in any way at all.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I ask this question—it arises out of the original Question. If I understand the noble Earl correctly, no questions of any kind are asked of a candidate as to whether he is a member of the Communist Party or the Fascist Party. The individual concerned may thereupon be posted to a position which involves secrecy, and it may only be thereafter that some kind of vetting takes place. That is what I understood the noble Earl to say. Is that really the position?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The position with regard to a Civil Service candidate —which is what I have been talking about in reply to the Question of the noble Viscount—is as I have stated. The document relating to this matter states specifically that the Commissioners are not, as such, concerned with questions of security. They are not concerned when a person is a candidate: it is only when he has become a member of the Service that this question could arise. As I have said, it arises only in a certain specific number of posts and branches.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL [H.L.]
3.12 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be now read a second time. As your Lordships will see, the Bill deals with a number of miscellaneous matters between which the only link is that they are all, to some degree, concerned with the administration of justice in the Supreme Court or in the county courts. It is always difficult to give any underlying unity to one's remarks in introducing a Bill of this kind that deals with diverse matters, but I shall try to avoid a detailed description of the various clauses to-day. I think your Lordships may be assisted by the fact that the Bill falls conveniently into four parts. The first deals with the Admiralty jurisdiction of the courts in England and Scotland, the second and third with a number of reforms in the Supreme Court of Judicature and the county courts, many of which were recommended by the two Committees appointed by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, to consider these matters. The fourth deals with the execution of High Court and county court judgments, on which those Committees made important recommendations.
The object of Part I is to make such amendments in the law relating to the Admiralty jurisdiction of the High Court, the Liverpool Court of Passage and the county courts as will enable the Government to ratify certain International Conventions on Maritime Law which were signed in Brussels in May, 1952. These Conventions were negotiated on behalf of Her Majesty's Government by a strong team led by Mr. Justice Pilcher, and they are supported by the shipping interests of this country, who consider that the British shipping industry would benefit from the ratification of the Conventions. The two Conventions which involve amendments of the law relate to the arrest of sea-going ships and to the courts' civil jurisdiction in matters relating to collision. The difficulty hitherto has been that there has been no uniformity of practice as to the circumstances in which a ship may be arrested by someone having a claim against the owners or charterers of the ship, and foreign courts are apt to claim
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jurisdiction and to permit the arrest of ships in circumstances in which our own courts would refrain from doing so. It is obviously desirable that there should be as much uniformity as possible in these matters between the leading maritime nations, and this is what the Conventions set out to achieve.
The Convention relating to the arrest of sea-going ships contains a list of the maritime claims for which alone ships may be arrested and includes a power to arrest sister ships—that is to say, ships in the same beneficial ownership as the ship against which the claim arises. This conception is novel in English law but I understand that it is well known in Scottish and Continental law. Thus the power to arrest sister ships will not increase the risk of British—certainly of English—ships being arrested abroad, bit the fact that it will be possible to arrest a sister ship in this country may be of some assistance to British owners by enabling the foreign claimant to bring his action against the ship here instead of abroad.
The Convention dealing with civil jurisdiction in matters of collision describes the circumstances in which the courts may entertain proceedings in matters of this kind, and limits to some extent the existing jurisdiction of the English and Scottish courts. I am satisfied that it does not do so in a way that is of material disadvantage to this country. I should like to inform your Lordships that this part of the Bill has been very carefully examined by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Merriman, who is, of course, President of the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division, and in this matter he has had the assistance of Mr. Justice Willmer, who also has great experience of these affairs. They are both satisfied that the provisions of Part I will enable this country to give effect to the Brussels Conventions and that at the same time the whole of the law relating to the courts' Admiralty jurisdiction has been re-stated in a convenient and up-to-date form.
Your Lordships will see that Part V of the Bill deals with the Admiralty jurisdiction of the Scottish courts, and its object is to amend the law of Scotland in order to bring it into line with the purposes of the Conventions. I do not think your Lordships would desire me

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to enter into a detailed explanation of these provisions at this stage of the Bill.
May I now turn to Part II of the Bill? Before I describe the main object of these provisions, however, I should like briefly to remind your Lordships of the history of the two Committees which I mentioned earlier on. Your Lordships may remember that in 1947 the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, was responsible for the setting up of two strong Committees, the first to inquire into the practice and procedure of the Supreme Court and the second into that of the county courts. The first Committee was under the Chairmanship of the learned Master of the Rolls. Sir Raymond Evershed, and the Chairman of the second Committee was Mr. Justice Austin Jones. These Committees reviewed the whole of the procedure in the Supreme Court and the county courts most thoroughly and made a large number of recommendations for reform.
Many of these reforms have already been carried out, including the important recommendations for the extension of county court jurisdiction, to which effect was given by the County Courts Act which received the Royal Assent last summer. A number of other recommendations made by the Evershed Committee have been dealt with by rules of court—for instance, those relating to the summons for directions, procedure in the Chancery and Admiralty Divisions, and the proposals for a system of trial without pleadings in the Queen's Bench Division—and my intention is to bring further proposals based on the Committee's recommendations before the Supreme Court Rule Committee as occasion permits.
This Bill provides a useful opportunity for giving effect to most, though not indeed all, of the recommendations of the Evershed and Austin Jones Committees which cannot be achieved without legislation. I pause for a moment to recall that some time ago the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, had a Motion on the Order Paper with regard to the Evershed Committee. I can tell him that I have taken the occasion of the introduction of this Bill to take stock of the whole position and at a suitable time, though I do not think that the Second Reading would be a suitable time to go into the complete
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details, I can give him the results of that stocktaking, if he cares to find an opportunity for me to do so.
I turn to another aspect of Part II of the Bill. Part II contains provisions dealing with the Official Referees of the Supreme Court. This may be thought rather a misleading description for those who are in reality Assistant Judges of the High Court, but it is a title which is well-known and hallowed by many years of usage. The Official Referees, of whom there are four, perform a most useful function in trying cases which involve building contracts, matters of account and other long and complicated investigations for which the High Court Judges doing their ordinary day-by-day work have not sufficient time. The Evershed Committee thought that the jurisdiction of the Official Referees should be extended so as to enable any matter to be referred to an Official Referee where the interests of the parties to the proceedings demanded it.
What the Bill proposes, by Clause 16, is to enable rules of court to be made to give effect to this recommendation, as well as to another recommendation made by the Evershed Committee to the effect that there should be a limited right of appeal on questions of fact from the Official Referees to the Court of Appeal. I hope your Lordships will not think that there is any disadvantage in having these matters dealt with by rules of court. These rules are subsidiary legislation, but they provide for flexibility and so meet the interests of parties to litigation and save time and expense; and, of course, every rule is considered by the Rules Committee, under my chairmanship, on which the Judiciary and both branches of the profession are represented. In order to underline the increased importance attaching to-day to the office of Official Referee, Her Majesty has been graciously pleased to agree that the Official Referees should be appointed by the Queen herself.
There are a number of other miscellaneous provisions in Part II of the Bill on which I shall be only too happy to give your Lordships any explanations that you may wish, but I do not think that at this stage you will desire me to go further into the clauses in detail. Perhaps, especially for those noble Lords who are Dickensians, I should mention Clause 17, which repeals a number of old Acts which

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provided for the registration, among other things, of the mysterious documents known as "cognovits." A cognovit was a formal admission of liability by a debtor on which a creditor could enter up' judgment. Your Lordships may remember that it was on a cognovit for the costs due to Messrs. Dodson and Fogg in the famous action of Bardell v. Pickwick that Mrs. Bardell was lodged in the Fleet Prison where she met Mr. Pickwick again. It is a far cry from the days of Messrs. Dodson and Fogg, and I think we may now safely abolish cognovits and all that went with them.
Part III of the Bill deals with the county courts. Your Lordships will see that, as in the case of the Official Referees, provision is made for the appointment of county court judges by Her Majesty the Queen. I have long thought it anomalous that, while recorders, chairmen of quarter sessions and metropolitan magistrates are appointed by Her Majesty, and have before entering on their office to take the appropriate oaths, no formality attends the appointment of such important persons as the county court judges. In future not only will they be appointed by Her Majesty, but they will have to take the oath of allegiance and the judicial oath before the Lord Chancellor. This, I hope, will help to mark the increased importance attaching in modern times to the office of county court judge.
I think I should draw your Lordships' attention in particular to Clause 27, which imposes a penalty on persons who fail to attend before a county court judge on what is known as a judgment summons. This is the procedure which applies when a person against whom judgment has been obtained is summoned before the court for examination as to his means in order to see whether he can satisfy the judgment. At present the failure of the debtor to attend is punishable by a small fine. But for failure to pay the fine he can be sent to prison only if the judge, after examining him orally, is satisfied that he had the means to pay. Thus, if the debtor fails to attend at all, he can snap his fingers at the court and the law is to that extent brought into contempt.
What I propose, therefore, following a recommendation made by the Austin Jones Committee, is that a debtor who
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fails to attend the hearing of a judgment summons—and I stress this point—after it has been adjourned for the specific purpose of enabling him to do so, may be sent to prison for not more than fourteen days. I am the last person, either temperamentally or as a former Home Secretary, to desire to increase the powers of imprisonment for debt, but on the other hand, I think it is entirely wrong that we should have a legal procedure which can be avoided by the simple process of not going near the courts, with no sanction for bringing the man there. I hope it will be found that the judges will have little need to exercise these powers and that the mere threat of them will be sufficient to ensure that debtors attend as they ought to do. I put that point to your Lordships and I shall be interested to know whether any of you can suggest an alternative procedure which will ensure that justice is done to the creditor as well as to the debtor. I have tried to find one, and I have failed to find any except that which the Austin Jones Committee recommended, which I have ventured to put before your Lordships to-day in this Bill.
I will not weary your Lordships by dealing at any greater length with the provisions relating to the county courts, but I should like to make one or two brief comments on Part IV of the Bill, which deals with the method of enforcing certain judgments both in the High Court and the county courts. The question of the execution of judgments is one to which the Evershed Committee gave particular consideration. One of their recommendations was that the ancient writ of elegit should be abolished. I can see an intense additional interest on all your Lordships' faces as I mention the writ of elegit—although I am sure most of your Lordships here had never heard of it before I uttered the words.
A NOBLE LORD: Hear, hear!
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I may digress for a moment on the interjection of the noble Lord, it reminds me of a quotation which Mr. Serjeant Sullivan was famous for giving in many cases in which he was engaged, of the judge who said to counsel: "Has not your client ever heard of the maxim sic utere tuo?" Serjeant Sullivan said: "My Lord, on the hills of Connemara they tall: of nothing else." After that excursus into Irish history,

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perhaps I may return to the writ of elegit. As l said, the recommendation was that it should be abolished and replaced by a more up-to-date procedure. Now, my Lords, I let you into the secret which I am sure you are dying to know: a writ of elegit is the method of execution appropriate where the debtor has no goods or chattels which the sheriff can seize, but instead has some land. The present procedure involves the summoning of a sheriff's jury, who are required to ascertain what land the debtor does in fact own. In the dimmer centuries of history the original justification for this procedure was that a jury of local men would know the circumstances from their own knowledge; but of course, this no longer applies to-day and, as the Evershed Committee said, the jury are usually mystified by the whole proceedings and do what they are told to do by the under-sheriff. Clause 35 abolishes this ancient procedure, while Clause 36 replaces it by a simple system under which both the High Court and the county court may make an order imposing a charge on the debtor's land for the payment of the judgment debt, and provision is made for the registration of these orders in the Land Registry.
I think I ought also to mention the important provisions of Clause 39, which enables High Court judgments to be enforceable in the county court. The Evershed Committee was rightly concerned with the high cost of enforcing a High Court judgment, and they recommended that creditors should be encouraged to enforce judgments for comparatively small amounts in the county court by the simple process of depriving them of their costs of execution if they sought to enforce the judgment in the High Court. The Committee recommended that no costs of execution should be recoverable in the High Court in respect of judgments for less than £40, and that in the case of judgments for sums between £40 and £75 the creditor should be limited to the costs which he could get in the county court. Clause 39, as I have said, provides for all High Court judgments being enforceable in the county court. It does not deal with the question of costs, because again these will be covered by rules of court which will be made in due course.
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I have attempted to give your Lordships a general explanation of the scope of this Bill without entering into too detailed an explanation of the different clauses, many of which are necessarily technical. I hope your Lordships will agree that the Bill makes a number of valuable amendments in the law relating to the administration of justice in the High Court and the county courts.
I should like to add one other word, and that most sincerely, and I hope the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, when he comes to read it will not think it presumptuous, or your Lordships inappropriate, if I do so. It is, I trust, fitting that one who has been his junior and opponent in the Law Courts, who has also been his successor in office and colleague in the war-time all-Party Government, and always—if this will not cause the noble and learned Earl any political embarrassment—his friend, should convey the thanks of the legal profession for the improvements in the law which the noble and learned Earl effected when he was their head. The institution of legal aid, the Crown Proceedings Act and the appointment of the two Committees which I have mentioned to-day are not only memorials to the noble and learned Earl, but milestones in the law. He and I agree, I think, that the deep and historic roots of the law, which we both venerate, do not prevent its being a living social servant to a changing world, and it has been an honour to me to carry on his work in the spirit which we both share. As I say, I hope your Lordships will not think it unfitting that I render these thanks and pay this tribute to my predecessor to-day. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.39 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I am sure my noble and learned Leader, Lord Jowitt, will be delighted to hear of the gracious tribute which the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has just paid to him for the work he has done in connection with the law. We all know that nothing is dearer to the heart of my noble and learned friend than the service of the law. It has been something to which he has given his whole life, and I know that one of the things he has had most at heart has been the

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improvement of the practice and procedure of the law. I know that he will be very moved by the tribute which the Lord Chancellor has just paid to him. We who are his colleagues shall shine in the reflected glory of those words.
The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has discharged his task —a difficult task—with that simplicity and touch of humour which we all learn to expect front him. He has told us that there is no underlying unity about this Bill; and, indeed, there is not. It is difficult to make a connected story of it. The noble and learned Viscount has somehow made us appreciate that there is, nevertheless, some underlying unity in it, and so far as that is the case we all support the Bill. The first part of the Bill carries into operation the International Conventions on Maritime Law which were signed in Brussels in 1952. We in this House attach considerable importance to international understandings, and we are delighted to have the opportunity of expressing our appreciation of the work that has been done in Maritime Law by approving this Bill. I am in the same position, I imagine, as most other noble Lords in this House: I do not pretend to understand it. You have to be an experienced practitioner in Admiralty Law and Maritime Law to understand the provisions, but on the assurance that they have col-amended themselves to Lord Merriman and Mr. Justice Willmer, I am prepared to accept those provisions as adequate and proper for the occasion.
I understand that the remainder of the Bill, apart from Part V, brings into operation many of the recommendations of two Committees, the Evershed Committee and the Austin Jones Committee, on the practice and procedure of the High Court and county courts respectively. I have taken some interest in the Evershed Report, as the noble and learned Viscount was good enough to say. I had a Motion down on the Paper for a long time. Frankly, I constantly put it off because of the complexity of the Report itself, and whenever my Motion looked like getting on the Paper for a fixed date I took it off again because I was nervous of the immense amount of work necessary in studying all the details. It was a very long and complex Report, making a great many recommendations, and I am not at all critical of Her Majesty's Government for not having implemented all these re-
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commendations up to the present time. But I freely admit that many of the recommendations have lent themselves to administrative procedure by amendments of the rules of court, and that not a great many require legislation. I understand from the noble and learned Viscount that all those recommendations which the Government have decided to accept and which need legislation are incorporated in this Bill, and that no further legislation will be necessary even for the purpose of implementing further recommendations.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I said most, but not all. The main one with which we have not dealt and on which we reserve our opinion, is the question of a direct appeal from the High Court to the House of Lords. The noble Lord will readily understand that that is a matter which requires serious consideration and in which the Judiciary are closely concerned. It is a proposal to ask the ultimate court to deal with certain cases without the advantage of the judgments of the Court of Appeal. That matter, as I say, is reserved. There may be one or two others, but I did not want the noble Lord to be under any misapprehension about it, so I thought I ought to tell him the that.
LORD SILKIN:I am obliged for that elaboration, I understand, then, that apart from these possibly large points of principle which have not yet been settled, we now have the position that such matters as require legislation are incorporated in this Bill, with the exception that the noble and learned Viscount has made, and that those recommendations in the Reports which the Government have agreed are worthy of acceptance and which do not require legislation have been or will be dealt with administratively. Since the Evershed Committee were appointed only in 1947, and it was not until several years later that they reported, I think the Government are to be congratulated on the speed with which they have acted on this Report, and also on the Austin Jones Report.
I do not propose, as the noble and learned Viscount has not done so, to go into the details of the various provisions, can promise the noble and learned Viscount that we shall discharge our duty from this side of the, House as an Opposition, and shall go through the Bill; and if any points arise which we consider need

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elaboration, explanation or amendment we shall not hesitate to put them forward. In this connection, I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for his offer to let me have a statement of the position of these Reports—which recommendations have been accepted and which have not—and I hope that he will allow me to take advantage of that offer in the near future, possibly before the Committee stage, if he can manage it.
I think we should pay a tribute to these Committees for the enormous amount of work they must have done. One need not be a lawyer and one need not read the Reports to have a conception of what is involved in dealing with the matter that was placed before the Committee for their consideration and report. The Reports are on the Table, and noble Lords will no doubt have an opportunity of looking at them. There really was a vast amount of work, wholly unpaid, and involving an enormous tax on the time of the members of the Committee. I do not think we are sufficiently appreciative of the wholly voluntary work which members of these Committees do, without any glory but just for the love of the work and the satisfaction of achieving results. We are not sufficiently appreciative of the great sacrifices that these Committees make, and I am sure the whole House would wish to express its gratitude to these Committees for their Reports.
There are just two matters of detail that I should like to mention. First, I am sure it is right that we should mark the importance of the office of county court judge by requiring a judge, as in the case of other judiciary officers to take the Oath of Allegiance. I hope the noble and learned Viscount will not be surprised if I remind him that there is another method by which he could mark the importance of these officers—a method to which I have drawn the attention of the House on a number of occasions. I hope the noble and learned Viscount has not forgotten that the question of judges' salaries is still a burning one. I am sure judges would greatly appreciate, coupled with the introduction for them of the Oath of Allegiance, a further consideration of their remuneration.
Having said a word for the county court judges, may I conclude by saying a word
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on behalf of my own profession? I have noticed several clauses in this Bill which set out the qualifications required for different officers: sometimes they have to be judges of ten years' standing, sometimes of five years' standing; sometimes they may be solicitors of five years' standing or of ten years' standing. I can detect, certainly at first glance, no underlying unity about all this. I can well understand that there may be positions where it is eminently desirable that the person holding the office should be a barrister, but there are a great many offices referred to in this Bill where the position could be filled quite adequately, and possibly better, by a solicitor with experience. I should be grateful if the noble and learned Viscount would look into this aspect of the Bill to see whether it would not be possible to give solicitors as well as barristers an opportunity of filling a certain number of these positions, as I am sure they could do with great credit and distinction. I myself will look more closely into that aspect of the Bill. Perhaps we could have another word about it during the Committee stage. Subject to these few remarks, we on this side have little criticism of the Bill. Generally speaking, we regard the provisions as being improvements and calculated to facilitate the administration of justice in our courts.
I would add one further comment—it is perhaps not wholly relevant, but I understand that one of the purposes of setting up these two Committees was to bring about a reduction in the cost of the law. Obviously, simplification of procedure by itself should bring about some reduction, but one has found that there has been no substantial reduction in legal costs since many of us first entered the profession. The procedure has changed enormously since the noble and learned Viscount was first called to the Bar and since I first entered the legal profession. There has been an enormous change, and, generally speaking, for the better. There has been a good deal of simplification, yet, somehow, it has not resulted in a cheapening of the law. It is just as expensive, or even more so, to go to law to-day as it ever has been, even allowing for the increase in legal fees.
Your Lordships may have noticed a recent case in which there was a relatively simple issue to be tried, as to whether or not a certain person had suffered from

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false imprisonment through being taken to hospital. The costs on her side—she was legally aided—came to, I understand, between £2,000 and £3,000, and the costs of defending the action were about £10,000. These figures have been quoted in the Press. I do not know whether they are correct, but, if they are, it represents a shocking state of affairs, that one cannot get a decision as to whether or not one has a good case without somebody—in this case the public—spending £2,000 or £3,000, the other side not being able to resist the claim without spending something approaching £10,000, which they will never recover. The effect of that is that it would have been infinitely cheaper for the defendants to pay rather than resist the action. They could have settled the matter, presumably, for substantially less than the cost of defending it. If we are reaching a state of affairs where a person who is being threatened with legal proceedings is forced to say to himself, "It is cheaper to pay and submit to an injustice than to fight and defend it," then we are very far removed from that state of justice in this country for which we are striving.
These two Reports, even in the simplification of our procedure, have not really struck at the root of the problem that we still have to face in connection with the administration of justice. I hope that the noble and learned Viscount will erect for himself a worthy memorial by paying great attention to this particular question and by seeing what he can do to bring down the cost of legal proceedings so as to make them accessible to every one of Her Majesty's subjects, regardless of their means and without the necessity of having to get public assistance to do so. If the noble and learned Viscount could do that, he would achieve something well worth while in the cause of justice.
3.57 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for the manner of his reception of the Bill at present before the House. I shall welcome any suggestions that he or his noble friends have to make at the Committee or any other stage of the Bill. I need hardly say, because it has become the rule between us in dealing with Bills, that if there is any point on which the noble Lord desires the help of myself or my Department before that
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stage, he has only to ask for it and we shall do everything we can to help him. I shall certainly have a summary of what has been done under the Evershed Committee prepared and I shall let him have it before the Committee stage.
If I may now deal with the points that the noble Lord has made, I want to make clear again that, while improving the status of the official referees and the county court judges under this Bill in the way I have explained, I have not forgotten the other aspects of the matter. I will ask the noble Lord to believe that that is not only in my mind but has occupied a considerable amount of the time of myself and my staff since we last discussed the matter. The noble Lord mentioned the question of the offices open to solicitors. I fully appreciate the general importance of what he has said. He will note that the course which he suggested has been taken in regard to the Chief Land Registrar in this Bill. I think he will agree that that is the sort of office that he had in mind, to which the remarks that he made would be particularly appropriate. I shall be glad to consider any further suggestions that he has to make.
The noble Lord has raised a vitally important question in his concluding remarks. He was good enough to say that the recommendations of the Evershed Committee, which was appointed in 1947 and reported in 1953, received reasonably quick treatment at the hands of Her Majesty's Government. I would ask the noble Lord to remember that that treatment has been caught up by events and the changed value of money between 1947 and 1953. That is one aspect which one must bear in mind. But I do not seek to evade the noble Lord's point in that answer. It is one of the most difficult matters in the world to control the cost of litigation, but the function of the State in that matter, as I see it, is to secure that the least time and complexity arises in the legal proceedings which the subject has to bring. I think the noble Lord will agree that the County Courts Act which we passed a few months ago will improve matters in that regard. The county court is much less expensive and the time taken for actions to come on is much shorter. To-day, in this Bill, I have some proposals, and in introducing it I mentioned the steps that I have taken in order to speed up trials in the High Court and

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also to make available to litigants the quicker and more acceptable ways of deciding their differences.
I assure the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that I shall go on with that work. He knows that I, as head of the legal profession, have also to consider that the hire should be worthy of the labourer as well as the labourer worthy of his hire. In fact, the noble Lord and his colleagues pointed out to me recently, when we were considering the County Courts Bill, that if the Bill was going to be made a success, then I should have to make provision in my rules of court for a suitable standard of costs for solicitors who did the work and also took up the legal aid in the county court which was being concurrently introduced. I think the noble Lord will agree that it is no easy balance to handle, but I agree with him that it is a matter that requires our constant and instant attention. I shall never resent it—I shall welcome it strongly—if he or any noble Lord in any part of the House can make a suggestion to me, or even if they cannot make a suggestion, then prod at me, if I may use the words, so that I shall do something. I assure him that my mind is at one with his on that. My Lords, once again I say that I am grateful to him for his reception of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

AGRICULTURE (IMPROVEMENT OF ROADS) BILL
4.4 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL ST. ALDWYN): My Lords, this Bill is not only useful and desirable; it also has the merit of being brief and to the point. It aims to help the improvement of certain upland roads to meet the needs of agriculture and forestry. It does this by empowering the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary of State for Scotland to make grants for the improvement of unclassified and unadopted roads in livestock rearing areas.
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Adequate rural roads are more than ever essential to modern farming and forestry. Without them modern farm machinery cannot be got on to the farm nor can lorries bring fertilisers or carry away produce. I am sure many noble Lords will be familiar with the type of road with which this Bill is concerned —roads which are usually in remote upland areas and which are difficult to negotiate at all times of the year; in winter they become almost impassable. In part this is the result of inadequate upkeep, but to a large extent it is because these roads were built for horse and cart transport and have always been unsuitable for modern farm traffic. In fact such roads constitute a handicap which prevents the farms which they serve from producing as much food as they otherwise could, even though large sums of public and private money may have been spent on reorganisation schemes under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts. The Council of Wales has pointed out that this applies particularly in Wales, and indeed this Bill has its origin in the two Reports made by the Council in 1950 and 1953.
Landowners, who are in theory liable for the upkeep of unadopted roads serving their land, are often quite unable to find the money to improve or even maintain them. At the same time it is precisely in these upland areas that the highway authorities themselves are the poorest. The small unclassified roads, which are most important from the standpoint of the Welsh hill farmers, receive no grant for maintenance or improvement from the Ministry of Transport, and it inevitably follows that very little can be, and is, done to them.
For these reasons the Bill will make the sum of £4 million available for the improvement of unclassified and un-adopted roads—in the latter case on condition that they are adopted by the highway authority concerned. This money can be spent over a period of seven years. Bearing in mind the type of road and the type of area concerned, I think your Lordships will agree that this is a substantial sum, and we estimate that it should enable 2,000 or 3,000 miles of road to be improved to a good agricultural standard. That would make a considerable difference to the remote upland areas. We expect that about half of the available money will be spent in

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Wales. The Bill is primarily intended to meet the problems of agriculture and forestry, but the Government have clearly in mind that it will also be available in improving amenities and so to some extent checking the steady drift of population from these upland areas to the towns.
May I now turn to the clauses? Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill contain the essence of our proposals. Under Clause l highway authorities may submit proposals for the improvement of unclassified and unadopted roads where it appears to them that the proposals will help agriculture or forestry. By the same clause the agricultural Ministers may approve such proposals. It is, as I have said, a condition of approval that unadopted roads must not be improved until they have been taken over by the highway authority. Clause 2 enables the Minister to pay grant. There is no rate of grant prescribed in the Bill. We have been pressed to fix a minimum rate, but we feel strongly that it would be much wiser not to do so. We should like to preserve a certain amount of flexibility so as to be able to deal with each case on its merits. But in order to give the highway authorities some idea of what to expect, I can say that we intend the maximum grant on unclassified roads to be 75 per cent. of the cost of improvement to a good agricultural standard. In the case of unadopted roads we will pay an additional 10 per cent. because in this case the authorities will be taking on new burdens because of the increased mileage for which they will be responsible. We should normally expect proposals from the poorer counties, relating to areas where the need is greatest, to qualify at once for the maximum grant, and we hope that this generous rate of assistance will cause highway authorities to put forward schemes where they are most wanted. It is in this clause that the £4 million has been provided and the time limit of seven years has been set.
Clause 3 of the Bill follows a similar provision in the Highways (Provision of Cattle Grids) Act, 1950, and permits highway authorities to accept voluntary contributions from anyone who may benefit from an improvement. We hope that this will help highway authorities to put forward schemes which they might otherwise not be able to afford. Although
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this Bill extends to Scotland, the seven crofting counties of Scotland which are listed in the schedule are excluded from its scope because provision is already made in the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act. 1897, for the improvement of roads in these counties. The definition of livestock rearing areas in the interpretation clause, Clause 5, is similar to the definition in the Livestock Rearing Act, 1951, but we have taken care to be rather more general so as not to exclude the roads which partly serve farms which, for example, because they produce milk, would not fall within the earlier Act.
Some interest has already been shown in the way in which we propose to administer this Act. The main point I should like to make here is that county agricultural executive committees will give highway authorities all the help they can on agricultural aspects of the work involved, and, at the same time, officers, of the Agricultural Land Service will place their knowledge at the disposal of the local authorities. The Ministers will also consult the agricultural executive committees on the agricultural merits of each proposal, so there will be quite an amount of local agricultural knowledge to draw upon.
The Bill does not only apply to agriculture; it applies also to forestry, both to private and State forestry, though there is one exception here: where a road is needed almost entirely for State forestry, assistance will not be given under this Bill. The Forestry Commission will, in appropriate cases, make such contributions as they already have power to make. In areas where there is some State and some private forestry together with hill farming, the Forestry Commission will be in the same position as any other landlord.
I am confident that your Lordships will give this Bill general support. It was criticised in another place only because it was thought not to go far enough. I cannot agree. It is an experimental measure, and £4 million to, be spent in seven years in the districts: which we have in mind is surely nor unreasonable. Our object is to help to make upland farming and forestry more Productive and prosperous, especially in Wales. We are also trying to stop the

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drain of population from these areas. If we can improve the communications I am sure we shall be helping in a realistic way to make it possible for those who live in these remote districts to lead a fuller life. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
4.16 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, we are all grateful to the noble Earl opposite for his clear and short explanation of this Bill which has such an important bearing on life in the countryside.
"The object of this Bill is to complete the job that has been started under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts."
Those are not my words: I am quoting the words used by the Minister during his Second Reading speech in another place (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 542, col. 1321). No one could sympathise with this object more completely and sincerely than those of us who sit on this side of the House. Your Lordships will remember that the Livestock Rearing Act and the Hill Farm Act were both passed under Labour Administrations. May I remind your Lordships that I had the privilege of commending the Livestock Rearing Bill to the House? We are grateful to Her Majesty's Government for carrying on the good work which we began, for, as the noble Earl pointed out, there is no doubt whatever that lack of access is preventing schemes already approved under these Acts from increasing, to the fullest possible extent, the keeping of livestock and the improvement of farms which are benefiting from public expenditure. The same difficulty is stopping other land, which would qualify under those Acts, from benefiting from the grant. The various improvements which could be brought about on this land, all of which depend on the improvement of roads, are essential if we are to get more hill sheep and store cattle. There is, too, the necessity for proper use of public money already allocated.
Our only doubt, just mentioned by the noble Earl (it is a very serious doubt) is whether this Bill will do what the Minister expects, judging by the words I have just used, and complete the job. I believe that there is a great deal more to be done—more than can be done under
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the terms of this Bill—in the way of road improvement before the job is completed. I should like to give your Lordships, quite briefly, my reasons. The official estimate of the mileage of roads that will be eligible for grant is 4,500. I hope that this figure is accurate although I am not altogether happy about it. Such a large proportion of this total mileage will be in Wales that I cannot help wondering whether a survey equally as accurate as that covering the mileage in Wales has been made in respect of Scotland and the Uplands of England. Even if Her Majesty's Government have not underestimated the magnitude of the problem (I hope they have not, but I am not very happy about this matter and perhaps the noble Earl can satisfy me in his reply), the amount of work needed on the roads serving the areas which Her Majesty's Government have in mind will, I anticipate, be considerably more than can be done with the help of a contribution of £4 million from the Treasury, spread over a period of seven years. I doubt very much whether, in itself, this contribution will be sufficient to induce local councils, who are all extremely poor, to do more than a small part of the work required.
We have been told by the Minister that if the average cost of this work is £2,000 per mile, a 75 per cent. grant would cover 2,500 to 3,000 miles. I believe that to be the correct interpretation of what the Minister said in another place. Here I am in a quandary and I should like the help of the noble Earl opposite. He said that the maximum grant in the case of unclassified roads would be 75 per cent. and in the case of unadopted roads, 85 per cent. I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary said in another place that, in the case of unclassified roads, the average grant would be 75 per cent. I am speaking from memory as I have not got Hansard before me. I may be mistaken, but it is a matter of fact, and it is a matter which, obviously, should be cleared up. I shall be much obliged to the noble Earl if he can clear it up when he replies. If the maximum grant were 75 per cent., then the average grant would be something less.
Clearly, there must be uniformity about this matter. What I am afraid of is that in many cases the county councils concerned, particularly in Wales, and rural authorities in areas of very small rateable

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value, will need not a 75 per cent. grant or even an 85 per cent. grant but something more towards the total cost of the work if they are going to undertake it. After all, it is optional for the local authorities to put up these schemes. It seems to me that, in the case of unadopted roads, for example, local authorities will not only have to shoulder the cost of improving the roads but will also have to bear the expense of maintaining them indefinitely in the future. This is indeed going to be a heavy burden for these very poor authorities. If this is the sort of problem with which they will be confronted, I cannot help feeling that many of these rural authorities will either not submit schemes for road improvements, because they feel they will not get sufficient by way of grant, or, if they do, that the Government will find themselves obliged to pay more in grant than they expect, and the result of that will be that there will be less money to go round, so that a smaller total mileage will be covered and the amount of road improvement done under the Bill will be much less than the official estimate. It may be, as I say, that I have misinterpreted what Ministers said in another place, and perhaps the noble Earl can reassure me by saying that this is a ceiling which he has given, and in no circumstances will the grants exceed, in either case, 75 per cent. or 85 per cent.
I am not alone by any means in expressing these doubts and fears about the effectiveness of the Bill. They were expressed by Members sitting for rural constituencies all over the country when the Bill was discussed in another place. I hope that to meet those doubts and fears the Government will, at any rate, review progress under the Bill within the next couple of years, and if they find, after review, that local authorities are not making as much headway as they had hoped, or that really a great deal more financial help is required if this sort of work is to be done by the authorities in Scotland and Northern England as well as Wales, they will be able to come to Parliament to ask for some increase of the £4 million available under the Bill from central funds.
Whatever the shortcomings of the Bill may be in dealing with this great national problem and as a means of completing the job of reviving hill and upland farming all over the country, I am sure that
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it will do a great deal of good, particularly in Wales, if local authorities are willing to make the best use of what it offers. I do not think that anyone who has visited hill farms in Wales can fail to realise the urgency of their need for better roads. I think it is still customary in the Ministry for the Parliamentary Secretary in the Lords to do, for visiting purposes, the long-distance journeys which involve being several nights away from London, because, of course, the pressure of business here is less than in the other place. That, as no doubt the noble Earl has found, and as I certainly found, is most useful. In my case, it enabled, me to spend a few days touring South and Central Wales,. and my experience of conditions there certainly supports everything said in the Reports of the Council of Wales, in the White Paper and, now, by the Government about the conditions and the need for this Bill. There is no doubt that;, circumstances being what they have been in the past, the road system in the Welsh countryside is far worse than it is in England. Better access to and from these upland farms in Wales will not only increase their productivity but will encourage farmers to switch from dairy farming to rearing of livestock. Dairy farming there, as the noble Earl well knows, is very often, in fact, uneconomic.
I feel that a real drive by the rural authorities to provide these small farmers with better roads will give many of them tremendous encouragement and long-term hope for the future on which they will be able to base the planning of their farms. I am sure your Lordships will not forget that there are wide bill farming areas in Wales which are not accessible by road but only by earth tracks. The difficulty of carrying fertilisers to these areas, which can be overcome in the case of farms with roads which can be improved, will not be removed by this Bill in the case of these more remote places. So I hope that the Government will again consider the practicability of helping hill farmers in these remote parts to spread their fertilisers from the air as they now do in New Zealand. This suggestion is not really revolutionary. Indeed, your Lordships' House is the least revolutionary place in the country and it was mentioned here—on both sides I think—about two years ago, or, at any rate, a long time ago. The suggestion was put up to the Government, and I do not know whether

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it has been examined. If it has been I have not heard the result. I certainly think the idea is worth going into, and perhaps considering in relation to the possibility of getting the assistance of the R:A.F., because I cannot see how otherwise these remote areas will be able to use fertilisers in the way that is required to improve the quality of their grass. Certainly they will not be helped by the terms of the Bill for it will not apply to places where no roads, even in very rough form, exist at the present time.
I am particularly glad that the Government in this Bill are linking upland farming in Wales with forestry and that the grant will serve both these industries. I think it is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of forestry for the rehabilitation of rural Wales. I know that the Welsh are suspicious of forestry, because they are afraid that it will bring foreign Englishmen into their country, and that the invading forestry experts will encroach on the rough grazing of their hill farms. But this difficulty. I think, could be overcome if more Welshmen would accept employment by the Forestry Commission and also if Welsh farmers could be persuaded—as I am sure they could be over a time—that farming and forestry are in fact complementary and not competing industries. If it is not impertinent for a mere Englishman to offer some friendly advice, based on his regard for the fine qualities of the Welsh countryman, I would say that the future of rural Wales will depend on how far the farmers, the local authorities and the Forestry Commission can work in partnership for the good of the country and for the good of the people. If this view is shared in Wales—as I believe it already is by many people—this Bill will certainly be a substantial contribution to that object, both by providing more access roads for the expansion of forestry and also by serving the requirements of the upland farmers. I believe it offers Wales, at any rate, a great opportunity, and I hope that this opportunity will be grasped.
4.29 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I should like briefly to follow the noble Earl who has just spoken, in congratulating the noble Earl on the Government Benches upon the clarity with which he has put forward this excellent little Bill. It is a little Bill but it is a very important and far-reaching
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one. To declare something of a personal interest, may I say that I hope that the great emphasis which has been put upon Wales will not overweigh the interests of other parts of the country and I hope that when the noble Earl comes back from his next trip he will be speaking with a Cumberland accent as much as with a Welsh one.
There is one small point that I wish to put forward with regard to Clause 2 of the Bill, a matter which I hope may be put right at a later stage. As a layman, I am not quite clear at what point the local authority know whether the Minister will or will not give assistance, and it will probably be difficult for either a local authority or a local subscriber to the scheme to go ahead until there is some guarantee as to what amount. 75 per cent. or 85 per cent., is to be forthcoming. I would say one word about Clause 5. Here I should like to give a particular welcome to the inclusion of cattle grids under the definition "improvement." Those who know these remote farms, where the amenities the noble Earl mentioned are linked with agriculture, will know that some well-meaning but absent-minded walker may leave a gate open and cause a farmer to trudge fourteen or twenty miles to find his livestock. I am therefore glad to see that the provision of cattle grids is included in this Bill under the heading "Improvement." With these few words, I welcome the Bill from these Benches.
4.31 p.m.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, I too should like to welcome this Bill. It is a small but important Bill, which breaks new ground in that it is an effort to deal with the difficult problem of unadopted and unclassified roads in our poorer counties. As has been said by several noble Lords, it attempts to complete the work of the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts. I feel that we should welcome it, too, as a pioneer, because it touches the fringe of a problem which affects not only the areas covered by these Acts but also a number of other counties. I think noble Lords will agree with me that nowadays there is a tendency to underestimate the value of roads generally and agricultural roads in particular. People do not realise sufficiently how essential good roads are in modern farming. The tonnage that goes

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on and off the farm is staggering, both the fertilisers and lime taken on to a farm and the produce taken off. What people also do not realise is that a great deal of this is transported in 10-ton and 12-ton lorries, which need good, sound roads, Nowadays, it is almost impossible to farm efficiently at the end of a muddy lane which is passable perhaps in the summer but passable only with the aid of a tum-bril in winter-time.
While this Bill is a big effort to solve this problem in particular areas, I hope the subject will now be considered on a far larger scale. I do not think it can be done by this Bill, because it is a national problem. There are all kinds of green lanes which ran about the countryside. They have fascinating histories, but the laws that govern them deeply involve the rights of grazing on them and say very little about the passage of traffic. Many of these are public rights of way, and many go to serve remote farms. In East Anglia, there are the Fen roads which were put down during the war to open up large tracks of land at that time completely unproductive. At the moment these roads are beginning to break up. They opened up land which is now making a major contribution to the food production of this country. In one rural district council area alone, some 12,000 to 15,000 acres which were rough grazing are now producing valuable crops and a large number of cattle. Houses have been built in these areas and it has become an urgent problem to deal with these roads. This is not only an agricultural problem; it is also a social problem, because a considerable number of people now depend on these areas for their livelihood.
I will not weary your Lordships with details, but at the moment responsibility has been given to an internal drainage board, which one cannot believe is the right authority to deal with all the manifold problems, agricultural and social, which arise in these areas. Although in these areas one cannot plead the extreme poverty of the hill farms, the counties are not rich and highly rated, and I feel there should be some means by which the county councils can take over these responsibilities, helped, where necessary, in some such way as this Bill provides, feel that by investing money in roads for agriculture we are making a good investment for the countryside and for the
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people who live and work in the countryside. I hope that the Government, having broken the ice with this Bill, will seriously consider the problem on a national scale, and that, if it is not possible to increase the scope of this Bill, it will be the forerunner of another and more comprehensive measure in the future
4.39 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, we should be unappreciative indeed if we did not welcome this Bill. Admittedly, it is mainly concerned with. Wales and Scotland and, so far as I can see, most of the money will be spent in Wales and Scotland, and very little will be spent in England. In fact the noble Earl did not mention England in his speech at all, though that was probably a mistake on his part. We are all very happy, however, to support a measure which will help people in remote country districts, whether in Wales, Scotland or England, to lead fuller lives and to join the rest of the country in producing a prosperous agriculture.
The Bill is limited, and we should have been happier if a more comprehensive Bill could have been brought forward at this time. It has been before the other place for a long time, a good deal of discussion has taken place upon it and it has been amended in certain ways. It was amended, for instance, in regard to the limit of time of seven years. For my part, I should have been happier if that time had been reduced even more, possibly to five years, or thereabouts. A sum of £4 million spread over seven years is only £600,000 a year. If we are to accomplish anything in the improvement of roads, and to make conditions better for people, £600,000 a year spent throughout the whole of the United Kingdom—I take it that Northern Ireland is excluded—is not a Very large sum. I shall refer again to that figure in a moment in relation to another matter.
There are one or two points that I should like to mention in relation to the Bill itself. First of all, I should like the Government to reconsider the definition in the Bill of "improvement." It seems to me that the definition is rather limited, and the improvement of the roads may be handicapped by the limited scope of that definition. I may be wrong about that. I can see that the Government have no intention of bringing maintenance into

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the Bill, but it may be possible at a later stage to extend the definition of the word "improvement." I want merely to cover any future eventualities which possibly the Bill, as drafted, does not cover. Then there is no definition of "forestry." Whether that is appropriate, or whether it should be in the Bill, I am not certain; but in Clause 1 forestry is linked with livestock-rearing areas, and it may be that the Bill should contain some definition of "forestry." The noble Earl referred to the question of estate roads through the forests. We realise that they are not covered by the definition of unadopted roads and so forth, and it might be better if the meaning of "forestry" were made clear in the Bill.
There is another point that I think should be raised, even at this stage. It will be in the minds of noble Lords who have read the proceedings in another place that there was a doubt whether the amount of money provided under this Bill—and perhaps here I may talk about money, even in this House—might be reduced by the request of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the spending by highway and other authorities should be lessened in the years to come and should not exceed the 1954–55 expenditure. I do not think a clear answer to that question was given in another place, and I should like the noble Earl to state categorically whether or not this £600,000 a year is to be in addition to the expenditure which highway authorities incurred in 1954–55, or whether, in order to spend the £600,000 on roads under this Bill, some other improvement in another direction which may be envisaged by highway authorities will have to be curtailed.
We are all concerned with increasing production in agriculture, and the improvement of these roads will help towards that end. It is my hope that the Government will do nothing in the two or three years ahead to minimise the improvement of agriculture in the livestock-rearing areas which they envisage as a result of the passing of this Bill. These areas have their protection at the moment under the Hill Farming Act, the Livestock (Improvement) Act and the rest, and they have their protection under the various subsidies now enjoyed by agriculture. I hope that nothing will happen to agriculture in the next two or three years which will make this Bill
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of no effect, and that the roads which will be provided under this Bill will lead to a prosperous countryside, and not to one which is once again in depression.
I would call the attention of the noble Earl to two Amendments moved in another place on the Report stage—no doubt he is already conversant with them. The first dealt with Clause 1 (6) (b) and sought to ensure that the landlord or the owner is not entirely freed from the obligation which he now has to keep his roads in repair; it was aimed at collecting from the landlord some payment (not necessarily a voluntary contribution, referred to in a subsequent clause of the Bill) in respect of the resultant betterment of his property. Under the last sentence of this clause as it stands, it is certain that the obligation at present on the owner will be extinguished. I myself am an owner, and I am not sure that that is fair either to the taxpayers or the ratepayers of the particular county in which the improvement of roads is carried out. In another place the Minister was uncertain about the Amendment; I think he rather wanted it, but that he could not find a proper form of words to bring it into operation. I would ask the Government to have another look at it and, if it is acceptable to them, to deal with the point on the lines suggested. The other Amendment to which I would refer relates to Clause 3 (1), which deals with voluntary contributions, and to the situation arising where a scheme is produced by a highway authority and some owner does not come into the scheme and so holds it up. That may be a matter which can be dealt with under the Bill.
In conclusion, may I say how pleased I was to hear the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, refer to the concrete roads in the Fens. I know that both he and I are trespassing on what is in this Bill, but I am encouraged in what I have to say by what the Minister said on the Third Reading in another place. [OFFICIAL REPORT (Commons), Vol. 545 (No. 44), col. 948]:
"My honourable friend and I have stressed throughout our debates that this scheme is really a new departure and very much of an experiment. If it proves a success as I hope it will, it may have many lessons which will be relevant to conditions in other areas."
I am concerned with "other areas" at the present time, and I want to endorse exactly what the noble Lord said about

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the Fen concrete roads. At the moment, under the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1940, an obligation is thrown upon the internal drainage boards, who are drainage authorities and not highway or road authorities, to repair these concrete roads. Many of them are through-roads serving not just the farms. Some, of course, are cul-de-sacs to the farms, but many are used for public purposes as through-highways. It does seem, therefore, that some alteration in the law should be made and that the cost of the upkeep of these concrete roads (which are now getting into a very bad state of repair) should be throw n upon the Government or some other highway authority.
The cost to the Government when these roads were put down was no more than one-eighth of what the Government are spending under this Bill, and, as a way of reimbursement the Government of the day obtained a good deal of betterment charges from the owners who were served by those roads. The upkeep of these roads is now becoming a matter of importance, because if they are not kept up, we shall be dealing in the future not with derelict hill land but with derelict land which is at the moment some of the finest producing land in the country —and the noble Lord will bear me out in that. I know that that matter cannot be dealt with under this Bill, but I throw out the suggestion to the Government that they should consider what steps they should take to improve the concrete roads which now run through the Fens. I have seen these roads in the last few days, and I have seen tracks on the side where the heavy lorries go down empty; they use the concrete roads only when they come back full, because they want to preserve the roads and do not use them for more traffic than is absolutely necessary. The matter is getting very serious, and I hope, therefore, that the Government will act in unity with both sides of the House and do something about putting those roads in order. I commend the Bill, and I hope that many farmers in out-of-the-way places will receive great benefit when it is brought into operation.
4.56 p.m.
LORD POLWARTH: My Lords, the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading told us that about half the benefit under this Bill well go to Wales. The
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noble Lord who has just sat down seemed to believe that England would receive virtually no benefit under the Bill. So to a Scotsman, at any rate, it would seem probable that some benefit will accrue to Scotland under the Bill. Therefore, I hope your Lordships will bear with me for a moment or two before this debate is closed. Here, like the noble Lord opposite, I must in all fairness declare my interest. As the noble Earl said in opening the debate, farming in these upland areas is very different from what it was. Thanks largely to the Hill Farming Act and the Livestock Rearing Act, large quantities of lime and fertilisers have been put on much of these land. But instead of coming by horse and cart, for which most of these roads were designed, they come in huge lorries weighing with their load as much as twelve or fifteen tons, and very often the drivers are forced to ignore the existing weight restrictions which apply to these roads. The consequences to the foundations and surfaces are only too clearly to be seen. The greatest mileage proportionately of this type of road in central and southern Scotland is in the areas of those local authorities who have the lowest rateable value and, therefore, are least able to meet the cost of upkeep and improvement of these roads.
Much of the damage to these roads is the direct result of tie Government policy as laid down in the Hill Farming and the Livestock Rearing Acts. It is only natural that the roads wear out, carrying these heavy loads. Therefore I think it is only right that the central Government should be proposing in this measure to make their contribution to enable the local authorities to discharge their responsibilities. I welcome this Bill, even if the total sum provided does not prove sufficient over the period. But, after all, there is nothing to prevent the Government from extending the Act or increasing the amounts provided under it.
May I just draw attention to two possible dangers in its operation? The first refers to this matter of the contributions which a local authority may ask proprietors of land affected to make towards improvements. A similar provision was included a few years ago in an Act called the Highways Provision and Cattle Grids Act. My personal experience of one local authority is that where they

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have demanded a contribution from an owner, that contribution has been one of 100 per cent. I hope that in carrying out the provisions of this Bill, when it becomes law, local authorities will perhaps be a little more generous and shoulder at least a proportion of their responsibilities. In this connection, there is a small point which I think it wise to raise here. Under that Act to which I have referred, it was made possible, where an owner had to make a contribution towards the installation of a cattle grid, for him to claim the amount of his contribution as part of the cost of a hill farming scheme which he might be carrying out and, therefore, to obtain a 50 per cent. grant towards that contribution. An Amendment was made to that effect in the Hill Farming Acts. I do not see any similar provision in this Bill. It may be that it would also require an Amendment of the Hill Farming Acts, but I ask the Government to bear that in mind, because contributions towards road improvements required from owners may he quite considerable.
The second danger that I see is the effect of the present credit squeeze and the restrictions on capital expenditure which local authorities have quite rightly been asked to make, in common with individuals. Like the noble Lord, Lord Wise, I should like to ask the Government for some assurance that the sums to be provided under this Act will be over and above the amounts to which local authorities are restricted on account of their normal capital expenditure on roads. I do not believe that this state of financial stringency is with us for ever or, indeed, for very long; so I welcome the Bill, not necessarily for what it can do this year or next, but for what I believe it can do over the next year or two beyond that.
5.1 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I am most grateful to all those noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon and have, by and large, given this Bill a warm welcome. Most noble Lords have raised various points, with which I will endeavour to deal to the best of my ability. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raised the question of the survey in Scotland and England and whether it was, in fact, accurate. The survey in Wales was done in considerable detail. Although the survey
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in England and Scotland was not done in the same detail, I am absolutely confident that it gives us a clear picture of the position. The noble Earl also raised the question of the average grant being 75 per cent. and the remarks of my right honourable friend the Minister in another place saying that the maximum grant for unadopted roads would be 75 per cent.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think that what I said was, in fact, that the Minister in another place had said that the average grant for the unclassified roads would be 75 per cent., and I understood the noble Earl to say that the maximum grant for unclassified roads would be 75 per cent. That was what I was bothered about. I hoped I might be made clear on that point.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: No. May I make this clear? The figure referred to of 75 per cent. for the average was the average of the grants on the unadopted and the unclassified roads—the two together.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I see.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: So that, although some grants would be below 75 per cent., with a certain number at 85 per cent., there would be an average somewhere about 75 per cent. It is anticipated that the majority of the grants will be up towards the 75 per cent. figure, but it is important that we should maintain the freedom to lower that grant in certain circumstances. May I give an example? In Wales there is a certain road which we consider, if it were done up to agricultural standards, would require so many thousands of pounds. The Welshmen might feel that, for amenity purposes—for tourist traffic—it would be to their advantage to raise the standard of that road to their normal county standard. Obviously, we should not be expected to give a 75 per cent. grant up to the level of county standard, so we should give a lower percentage which would be more or less equivalent to the 75 per cent. on the agricultural standard.
The noble Earl also raised the question of the spreading of fertilisers from the air. This is a matter which we have under close observation. It is very much in the experimental stage at the moment but, as things are, it is an expensive way of applying fertilisers to that type of

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land. Your Lordships will appreciate that it is not like putting fertiliser on a level plain; there are hills and valleys and the aeroplane often has to fly a great distance before it can land to take on another supply of fertiliser. However, we are treating this with great concern and I hope to be able to tell your Lordships about any developments as and when they occur.
The noble Lord, Lord Rea, raised two points. One was about when the local authority would k now whether or not their grant was forthcoming. The answer is that before the statutory procedure is got under way, there will be consultation between the officials of the local authority and the Ministry. I am quite confident that all those problems can be ironed out before the statutory procedure is started. Cattle grids are not grant-aided as such, but under this Bill, of course, they will receive an indirect grant, in that they are part of the road. That is included in this Bill. While I am on the question of cattle grids, may I refer to a point which was raised by my noble friend Lord Polwarth. The answer to his problem is that in respect of the cattle grids to which he was referring there is no grant at all to the local authority, whereas here the local authority is getting a considerable grant, and therefore the owner cannot really expect to receive a grant as well as the local authority.
LORD POLWARTH: Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I was using the grants for cattle-grids as a parallel. I was referring to the contributions required from an owner towards the cost of a road improvement and whether those contributions could be made allowable for a grant under the Hill Farming Acts, just as at the moment, if he is required to make a contribution towards a cattle-grid under that earlier Act, he is allowed to include his contribution towards that cattle-grid for grant under the Hill Farming Act. Perhaps I did not make it quite clear.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: I am afraid that that is not possible, under these conditions.
LORD REA: Would the noble Earl clarify the point about whether cattle-grids are not grant-aided and will continue not to be grant-aided under this Bill?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: They are grant-aided under this Bit in the sense that they form part of the road, and will come in, so to speak, under the umbrella.
LORD REA: I understand that.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney, and the noble Lord, Lord Wise, talked a good deal about Fen roads. They are, of course, a special problem. I am well aware of this problem of the Fen roads which were hardened by my Department during the war. This hardening was done to enable the area to be turned over to arable cultivation, and was completely successful. Even to-day hardly any of the land served by those access roads has gone back to grass. As the noble Lord said, out of the 130 miles of hardened road, some forty miles which had a through traffic value were adopted by the highway authorities and have become a useful part of the public road system.
LORD WISE: They have been taken over in some counties, but not in others.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: The information I have is that the roads which have not been taken over cannot really serve a useful contribution to the general road network. But there are some roads in South West Norfolk which also serve through traffic. I do rot know whether those are the ones that the noble Lord has in mind.
LORD WISE: There are some in South West Norfolk and in other parts which have not been taken over by the county council.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: We feel that this particular section should become part of the general network. Up to now the Norfolk County Council have not felt able to adopt this particular stretch, but I hope it may be possible to reach an agreement which will solve this problem. The remaining eighty or ninety miles of road has no other purpose but to provide access to the surrounding farmland. So far, practically all of it is in a reasonably satisfactory state of repair for this limited purpose, but repairs will, of course, become necessary, and then the problem will become more serious. The internal drainage boards are the responsible authorities; they have a power to levy a rate on the owners of the land benefiting from these roads, and I am sure that the noble Lord will appreciate—in fact, he more or less said so—that the production

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from this land is so high that these owners are in a strong position and should be able to afford to make such a contribution as the drainage board consider necessary.
LORD WISE: Yes, but my point is that if the Government are prepared to spend money on making roads for hill farming purposes, where the production is not so high, surely they can make some contribution towards, or even take over, roads which are not through roads. As the noble Earl says, they could make some contribution or take over roads which serve land of high productivity.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: I cannot agree with the noble Lord. If the land is highly productive, surely it should be able to support its own road system. Up in these hill farming areas, where the farmers, even with the aid of all the help we can give them, are having considerable difficulty in making a decent livelihood there is a very different problem. It is a different matter from the case of the extremely prosperous farmers down in the Fen country. As the noble Lord knows, we have had discussions with a number of individual internal drainage boards and also with the Association of Drainage Authorities. It would be too much to say that they have become reconciled to their statutory responsibilities, but I am sure that the discussions have made it clear to them that these roads can be kept up at much less cost than they had envisaged. I think they were thinking much more of county standards than of an agricultural standard. The noble Lord, Lord Wise, also asked me about the definition of "improvement." These items were really inserted in the Bill to make quite certain that they would in fact be eligible. We wanted to be quite certain that these items should not be left out, because there was doubt as to whether they were in fact improvements. With regard to improvements in the ordinary course of events, I am sure the clause is wide enough to cover everything.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Would this definition cover normal improvements, such as improvements in the surface of the road, although such improvements are not specified in the definition?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: Yes, I think we can all accept those as normal, straight-
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forward improvements. But it was important to mention these things, to make sure that they were not omitted.
LORD WISE: The operative word in that particular clause is "includes."
EARL ST. ALDWYN: Yes. The noble Lord also asked for a clearer definition of "forestry." I do not feel it is necessary here to have any more detailed definition of "forestry." We have a clear definition of the type of land with which we are dealing, and if a forest in any form is being grown in the area it would be treated in the same way as the farmland. The noble Lord felt that seven years was too long a period. I cannot stress too much the fact that we do not in any way expect this money to be spent, as apparently the noble Lord does, at the rate of £600,000 a year. Here we have a figure of £4 million which we want spent within seven years. If local authorities come forward with their schemes, and the schemes are sufficient to use up all the money in a lesser period, we have no objection at all. The noble Lord raised the matter of an Amendment which was moved in another place on the question of compulsion on owners to contribute. The Council of Wales recommended strongly against this, on the basis that in any case it would be difficult enough to get the Welsh owners to contribute (particularly the smaller ones), and they felt that any form of coercion would discourage them all rather than assist in bringing in the small minority. Of course, the noble Lord is perfectly free, if he should so feel, to put down an Amendment, and we will again give it careful thought. My Lords, I do not think there is anything more that I can usefully add to this discussion. As I said before, I am most grateful to noble Lords for the reception which they have given this Bill—
LORD WISE: I hope I am in order in rising. The noble Earl has not replied to a question which I asked and which was endorsed by a noble Lord on the other side, in regard to whether or not the expenditure under this Bill was to be in addition to the expenditure on the 1954 basis.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I am sorry; I omitted to answer that question. The position there is that local

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authorities are perfectly free to make their own cuts where they like. In this particular case, they are in a position now to receive a grant towards roads for which, if they were dealt with before this Bill was passed, they would have had to bear the entire cost. Therefore I think it fairly safe to assume, that where a local authority can get a 75 or 85 per cent. grant, whereas before they got nothing, it will be made full use of.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL
5.19 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed and returned to the Commons.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past five o'clock.