Sitting of 3 November 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  LEICESTER CORPORATION BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS

    Offences, Northern Ireland (Extradition Treaty)
    Mr. Hydeasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he has made any progress towards the conclusion of an extradition treaty with the Government of Eire so as to cover offences committed in Northern Ireland.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker): I regret that there is nothing to add to the Answer I gave to my hon. Friend on 28th July.
    Mr. Hyde: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Eire Minister for External Affairs recently informed the special correspondent of "The Times" that the question of extradition, if it arose, would call for delicate handling, which shows that the Eire Government are at least willing to discuss the matter? Does my hon. Friend not regard this as an encouraging sign, and will he and his noble Friend not pursue it with equal delicacy?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: My hon. Friend may rest assured that we shall do our best to follow up such hopeful signs. We are grateful to him for his continued interest in this matter.

    Bechuanaland
    Mr. Fenner Brockwayasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations the names of the mem-
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    bers of the Council of Bechuanaland who are supporters of the claim of Seretse Khama to return to the Protectorate.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of the members of the African Advisory Council. As I indicated in my reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 27th October, the feelings of individual members towards Seretse Khama, even if these were known, have nothing to do with their eligibility for appointment to this Council.
    Mr. Brockway: Does the hon. Gentleman remember that on Thursday last he said that my statement that there are no supporters of Seretse Khama on this Council was just not true? Will he withdraw that accusation, in view of the fact that he is unable to provide any evidence today that there are supporters on the Council?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I told the hon. Member that we do not particularise whether there are or are not supporters of Seretse Khama on this Council.
    Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Whether the Under-Secretary of State particularises in this matter or not, is it not a fact that there are no supporters of Seretse on this Council, and is that not rather odd?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I do not accept what the hon. and learned Gentleman implies in his supplementary question.
    Following are the names:
    Members of the African Advisory Council. Bechuanaland
    MEMBERS
    BAKWENA: Kgosi Kgari Sechele II O.B.E., Councillors Martinus Seboni, and Sankoloba Matlhabaphiri.
    BATAWANA: Mohumagadi E.P. Moremi, Councillors Montsho Mogalakwe, Tsheko Tsheka and Frekkie R. Kasoma.
    BAROLONG: Monnakgosi L.W. Montshiwa, Councillors Dr. S. M. Molema and S. M. Phetlhu.
    BAKGATLA: Chief Molefi K. Pilane, Councillors Bogatsu Pilane and Mothi Pilane.
    BANGWAKETSE: Kgosi Bathoen II O.B.E., Councillors K. R. Borne, G. A. T. Gare and R. N. Kalabeng.
    BAMANGWATO: Kgosi Rasebolai G. Kgamane, Councillors S. Kgamane, Oten Mphoeng, Molwa Sekgoma, O. Sedimo, O. Ntsaga, Moses Mengwe and Phoghuetsile Sello.
    BATLOKWA: Kgosi Kgosi Gaborone, Councillors Keema Gaborone and Sakaio Bogatsu.
    BAMALETE: Kgosi Mokgosi III, Councillors K. M. Ikaneng and Matthews K. Moagi.
    CHOBE: Gontse Maome.
    KGALAGADI: Moapare Mosiiwa (Hukuntsi) and Seetelo Totoe (Tshabong).
    GHANZI: Pheko Kolwane,
    FRANCISTOWN: M. Moreka and Ntsheketsan Masunga.
    NOMINATED BY RESIDENT COMMISSIONER: Tshekedi Khama.
    Mr. Fenner Brockwayasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations on what grounds headmen and sub-chiefs at Bokalaka, Mahalapye, Palapye, Sefhare, Mookane, Letlhakane, Tonota, Gwetla, Bobonong, Madinare and Mosu, in Bechuanaland, have been deposed since Seretse Khama was exiled from the Protectorate.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I regret that it has not been possible to obtain at such short notice the information for which the hon. Member asks. I will let the hon. Member know the answer as soon as it is received.
    Mr. Brockway: Again, does the hon. Gentleman remember that last Thursday he stated that it was just not true that any supporters of Seretse Khama had been deposed as headmen and sub-chiefs? When he gets that information, will he withdraw his charge against me if his information proves to be inaccurate?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Certainly, if it is inaccurate. I asked the hon. Gentleman to let me have that information straight away but he did not let me have it until Monday, so I could not, in fact, check it.
    Mr. Hale: If the hon. Gentleman does not know now what chiefs have been deposed because information has not arrived at the Commonwealth Office, how does he know that none have, and why did he say last week that none had been deposed?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: For the same reason that hon. Gentlemen opposite do not say to which faction in that party they belong.

    Canada (Migration from the United Kingdom)
    Mr. Rentonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what discussions he had concerning the question of migration from the United Kingdom to the Commonwealth of
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    Canada during his recent visit to Canada; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: During my recent visit to Canada my informal talks touched on many aspects of United Kingdom-Canadian relations, but I had no specific discussions with the Canadian authorities on migration.
    Mr. Renton: Does my hon. Friend mean that he went all the way to Canada and missed the opportunity of following up the hope expressed by the Prime Minister earlier this year that migration within the Commonwealth would receive official attention? Would he say why this opportunity was missed?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: No, Sir. I have made it clear to my hon. and learned Friend on numerous occasions that policy on immigration into Canada is, of course, a matter for Her Majesty's Government in Canada. Any initiative of the kind implied in the Question would have to come from the Canadian authorities.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Weights and Measures (Legislation)
    Sir F. Medlicottasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the Hodgson Committee on Weights and Measures.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): Work on this subject is proceeding as quickly as possible but it will not be possible to introduce legislation during the present Session.
    Mr. Bottomley: In view of the fact that the Committee presented its Report in 1951—a most excellent Report—does the right hon. Gentleman not think it unwarranted that there should have been all this delay? Further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that implementation of the Report will help the export trade, with which we are all concerned?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I agree upon the importance of the subject, which has indeed necessitated discussions with a number of authorities; but there will not be legislation this Session.
    Miss Burton: Apart altogether from the export trade, would not the implementation of some of these recommendations be of great help to housewives in the goods they obtain? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do something about it in the next twelve months?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I said "this Session."

    Foreign Firms, Irish Republic (Exports to United Kingdom)
    Mr. Shepherdasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that a Minister of Eire has extended an invitation to German textile manufacturers to establish mills in Southern Ireland so that they may take advantage of duty free entry into the United Kingdom; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent the undermining of our home market in this manner.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on 27th October to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Poole (Captain Pilkington).
    Mr. Shepherd: Is not that answer unsatisfactory in that it does not make clear to the Southern Irish Government that they are not entitled to take advantage of the generosity which we show towards them in our trading policy? Is it not time that we showed a little more firmness with these fellow-travellers in the Commonwealth?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Any member of the Commonwealth is entitled to seek foreign investment, and it is clear that we seek far more foreign investment than do the Government of Southern Ireland. When businesses are established in the preferential areas, they clearly get the advantage of Imperial Preference.

    Girard's Reagent T
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the President of the Board of Trade why he has added hydrazino-carbonyl-methyl-trimethyl-ammonium chloride to the list of chemicals liable to key industry duty.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Hydrazino-carbonyl - methyl - trimethyl - ammonium chloride is sometimes known as Girard's reagent T and falls under the general description for chemicals in the Schedule to the Safeguarding of Industries Act,
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    1921. It has accordingly been listed with effect from 8th July.
    Captain Pilkington: May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his stamina, and ask him if he is aware that the only place where this commodity is made is in Poole? I think that his answer will go a long way towards relieving general anxiety.
    Mr. H. Hynd: Can the Minister say whether this is animal, vegetable or mineral?

    Monopolies Commission
    Mr. Wadeasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he has taken to implement the Report of the Monopolies Commission on the Supply and Export of certain Semi-Manufactures of Copper and Copper-Based Alloys.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have drawn the attention of the trade bodies concerned to the Report and invited their observations on its conclusions and recommendations.
    Mr. Wade: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how the existing procedure will be related to the new procedure under the proposed legislation? If, for example, no action is taken on the Report of the Monopolies Commission, will that be regarded as absolving the firms concerned of any necessity to apply to the new tribunal, when it is set up?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that question raises much wider issues which will no doubt be discussed when the legislation is introduced.
    Mr. Wadeasked the President of the Board of Trade the terms of reference under which the Monopolies Commission has been asked to inquire into the subject of common prices and level tendering; and whether he has yet received a report.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd).
    Mr. Wade: I have read the Answer. Will the reference include uneven tendering, by which I mean collusive tendering of quotations of different amounts, many of which are excessive, with the object of ensuring that a particular firm will get a contract as a result of a prearranged, secret agreement between all the contractors?
    Mr. Thorneyeroft: Collusive tendering is covered. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will study the terms of reference.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope to the members of the Monopolies Commission that he is any more likely to take action on this report, when it is received, than was the case on the majority Report on Collective Discrimination?
    Mr. Thorneyeroft: The action which I announced goes somewhat further than the majority Report.
    Mr. Wadeasked the President of the Board of Trade the terms of reference under which the Monopolies Commission has been asked to inquire into restrictive practices affecting the supply of tea.
    Mr. P. Thorneyeroft: As the terms of reference are rather long I will, with permission, circulate the full text in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Wade: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any system of priorities in dealing with the subjects referred to the Monopolies Commission, as in the case of tea, which has a direct and important bearing on the household budget? Is it practicable to arrange for the report to be provided more speedily than is normally the case between a reference and the report?
    Mr. Thorneyeroft: The same procedure has to be gone through in each case. I think that the determination of priorities is determined by the order in which these references are made.
    Following are the terms of reference:
    Whereas it appears to the Board of Trade that it is or may be the fact that conditions to which the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices (Inquiry and Control) Act, 1948, applies prevail as respects the supply of tea:
    Now therefore the Board in pursuance of Section 2 (1) of the said Act hereby refers to the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission for investigation and report the matter of such supply.
    The Commission shall as respects such supply investigate and report on

    (1) whether the conditions to which the Act applies in fact prevail and if so in what manner and to what extent;

    (2) the things which are done by the parties concerned as a result of or for the purpose of preserving those conditions; and

    (3) whether the conditions in question or all or any of the things done as aforesaid operate or may be expected to operate against the public interest.

    Mr. Haleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is a ring in the production of motor car parts which combines to ensure that more than one-third of the parts supplied in this country are supplied only to persons approved by the producers; that one of the effects of this practice has been to throw out of employment a considerable number of workers at the Armature Manufacturing Company of Oldham; and whether he will refer the practices of this trade to the Monopolies Commission.
    Mr. P. Thorneyeroft: I am aware that restrictive practices exist in the supply of garage equipment and that employment in the company mentioned may have been affected thereby. Supply of goods to approved persons only is a practice dealt with in the report of the Monopolies Commission on Collective Discrimination and the Government have already announced their intentions in regard to legislation in this field.
    Mr. Hale: Will the President of the Board of Trade bear in mind that in the Report there are a few casual words about this particular association, and no more. I am informed that this is an extremely well-equipped firm, producing complex electrical-testing apparatus for high-combustion engines. It has a very fine reputation, and formerly supplied Her Majesty's Government. When such a firm is told that none of its products can be marketed in this country by any wholesaler who is a member of this ring, unless and until it joins the ring, is that not a matter for immediate action?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: This arises out of a dispute between the firm and the ring on the collective enforcement of resale price maintenance, and as that lies at the centre of the legislation which I have announced, I do not think that any previous action can be taken.
    Mr. Haleasked the president of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that one of the members of the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission, whose name has been supplied to him, is at present a director of a company operating, and prominently associated with, an association operating a monopolistic or restrictive practice; and whether he will take steps in the future to ensure that members of the commission have no such connection.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Yes, Sir, and as is customary in such cases the member concerned has informed me of his business associations and it is with my express approval that he continues as a member of the Commission. The answer to the second part of the Question is, "No, Sir." No useful purpose would indeed be served by seeking to staff the Commission exclusively with men who had no knowledge or experience whatever of any kind of restrictive practice in industry.
    Mr. Hale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one member of the Commission, who is managing director of the dominating firm in a ring, sat as a member of the Commission that investigated the activities of the ring? Does not that display a somewhat curious attitude to natural justice?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: What the member did was to investigate the question of collective boycott and exclusive dealing. I think that it says something for his impartiality that he signed the majority Report.
    Mr. Lewis: Is it not a classical example of how Tory freedom works?
    Mr. Jannerasked the President of the Board of Trade the terms of reference under which the Monopolies Commission has been asked to inquire into restrictive practices of manufacturers of slide fasteners.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have not asked the Monopolies Commission to inquire into restrictive practices of manufacturers of slide fasteners.
    Mr. Janner: These slide fasteners are being sold at precisely the same price by all manufacturers and, obviously, there is a ring. These articles are extremely useful in the hosiery and allied trades in Leicester and elsewhere. Is not the action suggested in my Question the only method by which a reduction in prices can be achieved?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for letting me have certain papers, which I have forwarded to the Commission in connection with the inquiry into common prices.

    Export Credits Insurance (Premiums and Claims)
    Mr. Spenceasked the President of the Board of Trade the total amount of premiums paid to the Export Credits Guarantee Scheme and the total amount of claims paid by the Export Credits. Guarantee Scheme for the latest convenient twelve-monthly period.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: In the year ended 31st March, 1955, premiums earned under the Credits Insurance Scheme amounted to £2,895,576, claims paid totalled £4,625,853 and recoveries on claims paid in previous years totalled £5,355,361.

    Visitors from Overseas
    Sir I. Fraserasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the number of overseas visitors to Britain this summer the principal countries from which they came: and the amount of foreign currency which accrued.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The number of overseas visitors to Britain from April to September this year was about 760,000, an increase of 16 per cent, over the corresponding period last year. The amount of currency which accrued from expenditure in this country by these visitors is estimated at £78 million, an increase of 13 per cent. over last year. With permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the detailed figures for the principal countries from which overseas visitors came.
    Sir I. Fraser: May I ask my right hon. Friend if, by and large, the figures show that the tourist industry is the biggest earner of dollars and foreign currency of all our industries; and, if that is so, will he and the Government take that into account when they are planning ways of engendering further dollar earnings?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It is certainly one of the biggest earners of foreign exchange.
    Mr. Usborne: Does the Minister think that if his right hon. Friend continues to raise the price of pots, pans, glassware and what not, the hotels will attract the same number of visitors next year as they did last year?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have every hope that next year will see a still further increase in the number of visitors.
    Mr. Rankin: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us the figure of the net gain in currency, after allowing for the currency used by people holidaying abroad from this country?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It is not part of the policy of Her Majesty's Government to prohibit Englishmen from leaving the territory.
    Following are the figures:

    Country of origin

    No. of visitors

    U.S.A

    190,600

    France

    111,600

    Germany

    74,600

    Scandinavia

    54,400

    Netherlands

    44,900

    Belgium

    34,800

    Switzerland

    19,200

    Italy

    21,300

    Central and South America.

    9,700

    Austria

    7,800

    Spain

    6,200

    Rest of Europe

    19,800

    Rest of world (excluding Commonwealth citizens)

    15,700

    610,600

    Commonwealth citizens.

    149,400*

    760,000

    *Includes British Travel and Holidays Association estimates for August and September.

    Bicycles (American Import Duty)
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade what action he has taken, in the interests of our export trade, following the 50 per cent. increase by the United States of America on imported bicycles; and what success has been gained by his representations.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The United States Government have agreed to enter into consultation under Article XIX of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade for compensation in respect of this increased duty.
    Mr. Dodds: Will the right hon. Gentleman state when he expects these consultations to take place, because it is a very important matter, and it should be dealt with expeditiously?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I would not like to give a specific date. It is linked with a number of other problems, including general consultations on tariff negotiations.

    Anglo-Canadian Economic Committee
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the President of the Board of Trade when the AngloCanadian Economic Committee last met.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: In June last year.
    Mr. Bottomley: Does not the President of the Board of Trade think that it would be advisable now to have a Ministerial committee, meeting rather more regularly, in view of the decline in trade with Canada?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that the existing committee does a very useful job of work, and it is meeting again on 8th December.

    Tobacco Adviser (Duties)
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the President of the Board of Trade the present duties of the Tobacco Adviser and Chairman of the Manufacturers and Distributors Committee.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The Tobacco Adviser advises the Board of Trade generally on matters relating to manufactured and unmanufactured tobacco.
    Mr. Bottomley: Is it not possible that his services could be used more directly in connection with the cost of cigarettes, bearing in mind that the Imperial Tobacco Company last year made a profit of nearly £20 million, with a high increase in its dividend, and ought he not to make representations to see that cigarettes are not put up in price, as they have been recently?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Something much more than a tobacco adviser would be required if we were to control tobacco prices in this country.

    Pears and Grapes (Imports from United States)
    Mr. G. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade why he has found it necessary to issue licences to import pears and grapes from the United States of America.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: This fruit is being imported without dollar cost under Mutual Aid arrangements. The quantities involved are about one-fifth and two-fifths respectively of what was normally

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    imported from the United States of America before the war.
    Mr. Williams: Will the President of the Board of Trade remember that we produce a lot of pears at home, and that these imported pears are competing with them; and will he tell us whether he anticipates any more heavy imports?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I cannot forecast what the future pattern of trade will be, but these imports are, of course, very much reduced, compared with the prewar imports from the United States.
    Mr. Lewis: Would it not be better for the working of the House if we abolished pairs altogether?
    Major Legge-Bourke: It is not only the quantity that matters. As with apple imports, also with pears an important consideration is the timing. Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the imports before Christmas will not cause a slump in the home growers' market?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that about 40 per cent. of the pears may be imported before 1st January.

    Exports to Scandinavia
    Sir I. Fraserasked the President of the Board of Trade the increase in the volume of the export trade to Scandinavia noted in his statistics in the weeks immediately following the Trade Fair in Copenhagen.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The Fair ended on the 16th October. Trade returns are compiled monthly, and the October figures will be available on the 21st of this month.
    Captain Duncan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the case of one of the Scandinavian countries, Sweden, there has been a heavy increase in the import duties on many linen goods, and will he make representations to the Swedish Government to reduce them so that we can get our exports to that country?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will put that question in writing.

    East-West Trade
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the easing of tension between East and West, what progress has been made, and what the future plans are, to increase the volume of East-West trade as far as this country is concerned.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Our trade with the Soviet bloc countries is increasing. Our exports to Russia are now running at twice the level of 1954 and our imports have increased by one-third. There have also been material increases in our trade with most other countries in Eastern Europe. I am sure that we can continue to rely on the initiative of our exporters to make the most of the opportuniies provided by these countries to increase trade in non-strategic goods.
    Mr. Dodds: Is it not a fact that last year the Russians exported to us over £40 million worth of goods, whereas we exported to them only £19½ million worth? As they are such good payers and have plenty of gold and sterling, surely some special effort could be made to increase that ratio.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: A number of special efforts have been made, including a revision of the strategic list, and a number of visits to Russia by British industrialists.
    Mr. H. Wilson: In view of the changes and improvements which the Foreign Secretary has told us have occurred in East-West political relationships generally, does the President feel it right that there has been no significant change in the strategic list since July, 1954? Secondly, as the Question referred to trade between East and West, and not necessarily to trade with Eastern Europe, can he give any indication at all as to when the Government are going to take the initiative in lifting the embargo on trade with China?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Questions on any reform of the arrangements under the United Nations Resolution should be addressed to the Foreign Secretary.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Will my right hon. Friend look particularly at the possibility of increasing trade with East Germany, a country which has much that

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    she could send us at the present time? Would he observe the political advantages that are likely to accrue therefrom?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: My hon. Friend is aware of some of the difficulties in the case of trade with East Germany, but I shall certainly bear that suggestion in mind.
    Mr. Hale: Would the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that the considerable orders placed for textile machinery some time ago, orders which came partly as a result of the labours of hon. Members on this side of the House, are now running out; that a serious position is developing in the textile machinery industry; that unemployment already exists in Lancashire, and that a report which I have received says that this will soon affect Oldham? Will he cause an inquiry to be made into the textile machinery industry and consider receiving representations from Lancashire?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I am always ready to receive representations.
    Mr. Royle: Will the President answer the Question put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson)? Is there any chance of revising the strategic list, last examined in 1954?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), when Prime Minister, once said that finality is a relative term in politics, but we had a full review of the strategic list, and a very substantial reduction in it, eighteen months ago. It is because of the initiative of the British Government in introducing it that there has been a very substantial increase in trade.

    Imports from Argentina
    Mr. Lewisasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give an estimate of how much British imports from Argentina will be reduced in price, resultant upon the decision of that country to devalue their currency; and by how much our meat imports are liable to be reduced in price in the coming year.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The information available about the policies of the new Government of Argentina does not enable any estimates to be made. A change in the exchange system seems to be only part of what is proposed.
    Mr. Lewis: The Board of Trade has stated that there will be a reduction in the price of our imports, particularly that of meat. If that does happen, can we be assured that the Government will not push up the price of meat by internal action?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that all these questions are rather hypothetical until we get clearer information as to what is taking place.

    Hire Purchase
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress he has to report in his consultations with the trade associations concerned on the subject of amending the Hire Purchase Act, 1954, so that in addition to the cash price, the amount of the deposit, the number of instalments and the amount of each must be clearly stated in all postal and newspaper advertising.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member on 25th October.
    Miss Burton: Is the President aware that while he continues to have no reply to make at all, the ordinary public is being fleeced by these unscrupulous hire-purchase firms, who are including in their advertisements deliberately false and misleading statements? When does he intend to deal with the matter and have an answer ready?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The law already provides that every agreement must state the cash price, the hire-purchase price and the amount of each instalment. It is a question whether that law should be extended to advertisements, and I am in consultation with a number of associations on that at present.

    Pottery
    Dr. Strossasked the President of the Board of Trade the total value of exports of domestic pottery for 1954 and for the first nine months of 1955; and what action he is taking to assist the industry in its export drive.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: £14,300,000 in 1954 and £11,300,000 in the first nine months of 1955.
    My Department keeps in close touch with the industry and the services of overseas officers and the Export Credits

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    Guarantee Department are available to assist exporters in individual markets.
    Dr. Stross: Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the figures that he read out are very creditable indeed for 30,000 or 40,000 workers in this particular section? As he is a Staffordshire man, will he approach his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and point out that if the Chancellor must impose a 30 per cent. tax on these goods we shall tend to lose our craftsmen and have our home market crippled and, if that is the case, lose our export trade too?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I certainly pay tribute to workers in the potteries, and not least to those in Staffordshire. I think the latter part of the Question arises in a Question to be answered by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Burden: In regard to this craft industry, will the President bear in mind the demands made on stocks, particularly for replacements in some overseas territories? Can he give an undertaking to give financial assistance where it is necessary through the Export Credits Department so that those stocks will be maintained in foreign countries?
    Mr. Thorneyeroft: I would rather see that Question on paper.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade what action he intends to take on the letter sent to him on 28th October, 1955, by the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation and the National Society of Pottery Workers; and if he will make a statement on the letter.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I would ask the hon. Member to await the reply to be given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to Question No. 51.

    Marine Engines (Exports to China)
    Mr. de Freitasasked the President of the Board of Trade the value of Chinese orders for which export licences have been refused during the last two years for Lincoln-built marine engines similar to those which have previously been exported to China and which have been used in ordinary merchant ships engaged in river and coastal trade.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: One export licence application referring to Lincoln-built engines has been refused. The value was £656,770.
    Mr. de Freitas: Since we have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of orders already through this refusal, what does the President intend to do if we have the offer of further orders?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: This item is on the strategic list under the United Nations Resolution.
    Mr. Drayson: Can the President give an assurance that no other country which is a member of N.A.T.O. is allowed to export similar marine engines to China?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: All other nations which are signatories to the Resolution follow the same rule, I understand.
    Mr. Bottomley: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do something about removing this restriction, bearing in mind that the very happy relationships established between British manufacturers and the Chinese trade delegation are being hampered by restrictions of this kind?
    Mr. Thorneyeroft: The amendment of that Resolution raises much wider issues, including issues of foreign policy, which should be addressed to the Foreign Secretary.

    British Standards Institution
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade on what date the British Standards Institution was given the necessary powers by Her Majesty's Government to raise standards where the Institution considers this to be essential in the public interest.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Under its Charter of 1929 the British Standards Institution may revise, alter and amend standards as it sees fit.
    Miss Burton: Can the President qualify that statement a little? Is he aware that many people, including the British Standards Institution itself, are under the impression that it cannot raise the standards of goods which carry the Kite mark unless the industry concerned is prepared to agree to those changes? Is he further aware that in the recent case about crash helmets a statement was made on behalf of the B.S.I. in which I

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    understood it to say that in no case whatever where it considered that standards were too low could the B.S.I. itself raise those standards without the concurrence of the industry concerned?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The Institution has power to amend any standards in any way but its practice is to proceed in consultation and by voluntary agreement.
    Miss Burton: Do I understand that the Institution has the power to raise any standards without the concurrence of the industry concerned?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The British Standards Institution has power to amend its standards in any way whatever without authority from Her Majesty's Government, but in practice it has, I think wisely, proceeded in consultation and in agreement with the industries concerned.

    Sheet Steel (Dollar Imports)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the President of the Board of Trade the value, in dollars, of the imports of sheet steel of all types in 1954 and in 1955, to the latest convenient date; and what proportion was used by the motor car industry in each of these periods.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The value in dollars of imports from the dollar area was 14·2 million dollars in 1954 and 49·4 million dollars in the first nine months of 1955.
    No information is available to show what proportion of these imports was used by the motor car industry.
    Mr. Johnson: Will the President jealously guard the use of imports such as these, which are paid for by precious dollars? Will he further introduce some system of allocation whereby those firms which are fighting for the export market will get a supply, in proportion, as opposed to those firms which are taking the easier course of selling in the lush home market?
    Mr. Thomeycroft: Without going into the wider issue, I would say that the Government resist the idea of introducing import licensing with, as the hon. Member suggests, the inevitable concomitant of internal rationing.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell the House that
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    this very big increase in dollar imports can take place not only without the Government having any control of the situation but even without them having any knowledge of how this sheet steel is used in this country? Will the right hon. Gentleman not accept the suggestion put to the Government from this bench on Friday that the motor car manufacturers should be invited, in view of their very heavy usage of dollar steel, to make a special additional drive in the export market?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The motor car industry is making a very great drive in the export market, with very great success at present. I do not think I could take up again all the detailed arguments which the right hon. Gentleman very sincerely put in favour of import restrictions, which we think from every point of view would be harmful to the interests of the country.
    Mr. Bottomley: Could this steel have been obtained in markets other than dollar markets?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It was obtained in the market where it could be most economically obtained.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Income Tax Assessments (Schedule A)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what decision has been reached about the effect of new valuation of properties upon their assessment for Income Tax under Schedule A.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry Brooke): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) on 30th June.
    Mr. Hynd: That answer was indecisive, Is the Minister aware that property owners in my division, not all of whom, I suspect, are supporters of mine, are very concerned about the possible effect of the new valuation on Income Tax assessments? Is he aware of the necessity to make some statement to ease their minds on this matter?
    Mr. Brooke: I would point out that the new valuations have not yet been published and that there can be no change

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    in the Schedule A assessments without fresh legislation. Important recommendations relating to the matter were made by the Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income a few months ago, and these are now under consideration.

    Egyptian Sterling Balances (Releases)
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what reason the rate at which Egypt's blocked sterling can be released has been increased when that country is at war with Israel.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): The recent revision of the Sterling Releases Agreement with Egypt was decided on economic grounds. It brought us material advantage because it enabled the Egyptian Government to abolish the Import Entitlement Scheme which was discriminating against sterling area imports.
    Mr. Johnson: Is it possible for Egypt to use those sterling balances to buy arms from countries such as Czechoslovakia, thereby increasing the danger of war?
    Sir E. Boyle: I would point out that even without the new Sterling Releases Agreement Egypt had enough free sterling and other foreign exchange resources to make substantial purchases of arms.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In that case why was the sterling released?
    Sir E. Boyle: It gave us material advantages, which the right hon. Gentleman will find if he looks at White Paper Command 9611, published today.

    Post-War Credits
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make provision for the payment of post-war credits to those suffering hardship regardless of their age.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The difficulties involved in defining hardship are so great that I am afraid this suggestion cannot be acted upon.
    Mr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that the defining of hardship
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    is something which the National Assistance Board does every day? Can he not consult the board and get a definition?
    Mr. Brooke: I should be reluctant to put this duty on the National Assistance Board. My hon. Friend will also appreciate that there is a distinction between temporary hardship and permanent hardship which would have to be considered here.
    Mr. Bence: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider raising the interest rate on post-war credits from nothing to 3½ per cent., in keeping with the rise in interest rates to other people?
    Mr. Brooke: To do that would cost some £16 million to £17 million extra a year, and if we had that amount of money to distribute, I think most holders of post-war credits would prefer that it should be used to pay out the credits more quickly.
    Captain Pilkington: Will my right hon. Friend give this matter very high priority as soon as things become a little easier?
    Mr. Brooke: I have great sympathy with those who have been holding these post-war credits for a long period.

    Greyhound Racecourses (Bookmakers' Licence Duty)
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what amount has been received during 1955 from tax paid by bookmakers at greyhound racecourses; the cost of collecting this sum; and by whom the cost was borne.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Receipts from the bookmakers' licence duty during the nine months January to September, 1955, were £1,260,794. The cost of collecting this sum from the occupiers of the greyhound racecourses cannot be closely estimated, as it forms part of the general cost to the Exchequer of administering the Customs and Excise revenue.
    Mr. Johnson: Is it not a fact that the cost of collecting this revenue is borne entirely by the greyhound racing tracks? What justification is there for making these people act as unpaid collectors for the Exchequer?
    Mr. Brooke: The collection of this duty follows the general procedure of Customs and Excise taxation, and I do not see why a distinction should be made between this and, for instance, Entertainments Duty.

    Agricultural Subsidies
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the good harvest and increased crops due partly to the elimination of rabbits by myxomatosis, he will consider reducing the subsidies and deficiency payments to the agricultural industry.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Collins) on 31st October by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: In view of the excellent harvest and statements that myxomatosis will save farmers tens of millions of pounds this year, will my right hon. Friend give earnest consideration to the needs of the general body of taxpayers who are providing some £250. million as support for the farmers?
    Mr. Brooke: These matters are considered annually at the February Price Review, and I should have thought that that was the proper procedure.
    Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Can the right hon. Gentleman give one valid reason for which farmers are less worthy to receive subsidies than all the townee industrialists who receive subsidies from the public in higher prices, due to protection?
    Mr. Brooke: As I am not the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I think I had better not embark on these troubled waters.
    Mr. Hurd: If and when the Chancellor considers this matter in the light of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke), will he also consider the prosperous time which the motor car manufacturers are having, and whether it is necessary that they should have the protection of the 33⅓ per cent. tariff which keeps up their incomes?
    Mr. Usborne: Is it not a fact that farmers are making too much money anyway?
    Mr. Grant-Ferris: Will my right hon. Friend remember the bad seasons which the farmers had before this one?

    Diesel Oil Duty
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer his estimate of the total loss of revenue that would result from the reduction of duty on diesel oil by sixpence per gallon and by the total exemption of diesel engined goods vehicles and passenger service vehicles, respectively, from such duty.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The immediate loss of revenue from a reduction in the duty on diesel oil by 6d. a gallon would be about £10 million a year. The loss resulting from the exemption from this duty of oil for diesel-engined goods vehicles and passenger service vehicles would be about £20 million and £30 million a year respectively. Any such tax changes would of course encourage users to switch from petrol to diesel oil vehicles, and the loss of revenue would therefore increase progressively.
    Mr. Davies: Does the Minister agree that a switch from petrol to diesel fuel is advantageous? Do not those figures show that it would not be a great cost to the Exchequer if there were a discriminatory tax in favour of diesel oil for road passenger vehicles? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that services, in the country areas particularly, are deteriorating owing to very high costs, that unremunerative services are being cut out and fares are increasing?
    Mr. Brooke: Those are very important questions, but the hon. Member will realise that any thought of reductions of duty are entirely excluded by the present economic situation.
    Mr. R. Bell: In view of the foul and obnoxious fumes poured out by diesel vehicles, will my right hon. Friend consider doubling the tax on them?

    Exports (Promotion)
    Mr. Spenceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider employing a system of direct incentives in order to stimulate export figures.
    Sir E. Boyle: No, Sir. While pursuing a policy of promoting exports by all legitimate means, Her Majesty's Government have consistently taken a stand

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    against direct incentive schemes to stimulate exports and have sought the cooperation of other Governments in that policy.
    Mr. Spence: Will my right hon. Friend give very careful consideration to this matter in future, having regard to the paramount need for exports and the fact that the negative method of freezing the home market against goods may not be sufficient?
    Sir E. Boyle: I must adhere quite firmly to the terms of my original Answer. In O.E.E.C. and G.A.T.T. Her Majesty's Government, in common with other member countries, have assumed obligations limiting and looking to the eventual abolition of all artificial export incentives and subsidies.

    Service Officers (Retired Pay)
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of present circumstances and of all the representations made to him, he has reconsidered or is reconsidering the position of the limited number of ex-officers whose pensions were fixed before the war.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given on 1st November to my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Black).
    Captain PilkingtonCannot my right hon. Friend at least say that the Chancellor will consider the matter again before the next Budget? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that these unfortunate people are in fact in a category by themselves?
    Mr. Brooke: It was on this day last week that I announced that the Government were undertaking a review of these matters and would promulgate their decision in due course.
    Mr. Paget: Is it not thoroughly dishonest to pay pensions in depreciated currency? Secondly, how do we expect to assist recruitment and to encourage people to take up the Army as a career if we do not treat them honestly?
    Mr. Brooke: The second supplementary question is not for me to answer, but in answer to the first, the Pensions Increase Acts and similar action taken
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    for retired officers have been based on principles which have been the same whatever the Government in power. I said just now that a further review is being made.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this dwindling number of ex-officers consider that they are being disgracefully defrauded by the present Government?—[Interruption.]—or by previous Governments? Has not the time now come to do something about the matter, or is the right hon. Gentleman waiting for them to die off so that he need not do anything about it at all?
    Mr. Brooke: A general improvement in their position was brought about last year, and the matter is being again reviewed.

    National Library of Wales
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will immediately review the Treasury proposal that the National Library of Wales should be graded as a provincial institution, in view of the need to maintain a library of national status in the Principality.
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a statement regarding the consultations that took place on the future of the National Library of Wales.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I should like to remove any misunderstandings. In June the Treasury suggested to the authorities of the National Library that the pay of staff recruited by them in future should be fixed on the same basis as the pay of civil servants employed in Aberystwyth, and indeed in all but the largest cities in all parts of the United Kingdom. Civil servants are paid "London," "Intermediate" or "Provincial" rates according to where they work, but this implies no differentiation in status, either of the staff or of the establishment in which they are employed.
    In October the Library authorities replied asking the Treasury to reconsider this suggestion. This request is receiving attention, and an answer will be sent to them as soon as possible. The future of the National Library of Wales and its national status are, I am glad to state, not involved at all.
    Mrs. White: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that our national librarian and court of governors do not hold the views he has expressed, that they believe the status of the Library is most vitally affected? Will he make clear to his right hon. Friend that this really monstrous and indefensible proposal must be reconsidered because it is an insult to the Welsh nation and Celtic scholars everywhere?
    Mr. Brooke: Let me assure the hon. Lady that no insult to the Welsh nation was intended. The Treasury is in correspondence with the Library authorities, and I thought it was a pity that a copy of the Library's last letter to the Treasury was communicated to the Press.
    Mr. Gower: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is real feeling all over Wales among all sorts of people about this proposal? Why should it refer only to the Library employees and not be extended to university employees? Is it not quite inconsistent with the past history of this university as a national institution?
    Mr. Brooke: I think it would be better for me to say nothing further, but to wait until the reply of the Treasury to the National Library of Wales, in reply to the letter of 3rd October, has been dispatched.
    Mr. Donnelly: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all that has happened so far is that the Treasury has been following its normal practice of making the maximum number of enemies with the minimum amount of effect? Will he look into the matter again and give an assurance that it has the concurrence of the Minister for Welsh Affairs also?
    Mr. Brooke: I think the pity of it is that a technical term, "the provincial rate of Civil Service pay" was interpreted by some people as casting a doubt on the status of a national institution.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, before a decision is arrived at, there will be consultation with the Minister for Welsh Affairs and the Council for Wales, as a proposal of this kind is deeply resented? Will he take Welsh opinion on the matter into account?
    Mr. Brooke: I will take account of what the right hon. Member has said. This
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    matter is not closed, and I think the best thing is for a reply to be sent by letter to the National Library.
    Mr. Grenfell: Could not this matter be simplified and a lot of unnecessary responsibility taken from the shoulders of the Minister if the Welsh nation were able to decide this matter for itself?
    Mr. Brooke: These matters are, of course, a Treasury responsibility, but I hope I have made it clear—after all I am married to a Welsh woman—that I have some understanding of Welsh national feeling.

    National Art Collections (Purchase Grants)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the observations of the Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art concerning the size of the annual purchase grants made to the national art collections; and whether he will increase these grants to bring them more into line with current values of works of art.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which my right hon. Friend gave on 1st November to the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey).
    Mr. Robinson: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the present value of the purchasing power of these grants is a mere fraction of what it was 60 or 10 years ago, and that the present system of occasional Treasury grants for special purposes is no adequate substitute for an annual grant in that it transfers to the Treasury responsibility for selection which ought to be placed in the hands of the trustees of these galleries?
    Mr. Brooke: As the hon. Member knows, these grants have twice been raised recently by the present Government. As I told the House, the Chancellor has taken careful note of the advice expressed by the Reviewing Committee in its valuable Report.

    Gold and Dollar Reserves
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the lowest level reached, during the decline of the gold and dollar reserves which started in the summer of 1951, was higher or lower than the level today.
    Sir E. Boyle: Lower, Sir. The gold and dollar reserves fell continuously from 30th June, 1951, until 30th April, 1952, from £1,381 million to £594 million. On 31st October, 1955, they stood at £820 million.
    Captain Pilkington: Will my hon. Friend convey that information to the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), who henceforward will be able to give a rather truer comparison of the two occasions, instead of so frequently calling other people dishonest?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these figures are available to all Members of the House in the Monthly Digest of Statistics, that the figures I have given were quoted from that document, and that the gold reserves today stand below the level at which they stood at the end of December, 1951, and are far too low for any question of convertibility?
    Sir E. Boyle: I do not think that that in any way mitigates the force of the perfectly fair account which my right hon. Friend gave of the economic affairs in 1951 when he spoke on Monday.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the decline in the gold reserves in 1951 was from much the highest level reached during the post-war period, and that it is much more dangerous to have a decline in gold reserves when they are down to nearly £800 million?
    Sir E. Boyle: I do not un-say what I said last Friday or what my right hon. Friend said last Monday.

    Purchase Tax (Pottery Industry)
    Dr. Strossasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has now considered representations from the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation complaining of the imposition of 30 per cent. Purchase Tax on pottery articles used in the preparation and storage of food; and whether he has yet consented to receive a deputation from the industry.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Chancellor the Exchequer (1) what consultations took place between his Department and the trade organisations concerned before the imposition of Purchase Tax on pottery; and what estimate he has formed of the effect of the tax on the pottery industry;
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    (2) if he has considered the memorandum sent to him on 28th October, 1955, by the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation and the National Society of Pottery Workers; if he will make a statement on it; and what action he intends taking.
    Mr. H. Brooke: On behalf of my right hon. Friend I am looking forward to receiving a deputation from this industry shortly, and hearing their views. I should like to discuss the probable effects of Purchase Tax with them in the first instance. For obvious reasons it is not and cannot be the practice to consult trade organisations about changes in taxation beforehand.
    Dr. Stross: is the Financial Secretary aware that in north Staffordshire there has been very grievous dismay at the threat to the whole of the industry, and that, as I said earlier today, we fear the loss of craftsmen whom we shall not get back and that our export trade will decline, too? In view of the fact that ceramic ware is made of indigenous materials here in Britain, and that we do not import anything to manufacture it, there should be no tax on it.
    Mr. Brooke: The British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation wrote to the Chancellor on the whole subject on Friday, and I am taking the earliest opportunity of saying that I shall be pleased to receive a deputation. I think it would be a mistake if I expressed my own views in advance of hearing the views which they desire to convey to me.
    Mr. Smith: While welcoming that answer, may I ask the Financial Secretary, in view of the uncertainty that is being created, and the fact that the Finance Bill may be considered in the near future, whether he will consider this matter with urgency and receive the deputation as early as possible?
    Mr. Brooke: I shall be at the Federation's service as soon as a convenient date can be arranged.
    Mr. G. R. Howard: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask if he will consider also the position of the small working potter for whom the tax changes, I understand, are very serious indeed, especially as it is, I believe, the policy of the Government to encourage craftsmen, and as these men

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    are doing a very useful work for the export trade, with overseas visitors, in places such as West Cornwall?
    Mr. Brooke: Yes. All these matters will be taken into consideration.

    NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION
    Mr. Beswickasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the continued practice of senior North Atlantic Treaty Organisation officials of making public speeches of a politically controversial character, he will cause representations to be made to the Council of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation that all such officials conform to the code in this regard laid down for Service officers and civil servants in this country.
    The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): No, Sir. I am confident that the senior officials of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation are fully aware of the need for observing discretion in their public speeches.
    Mr. Beswick: Does the Prime Minister really mean that senior officials observed discretion on the very eve of the Geneva talks, when both Field Marshal Montgomery and Lord Ismay said that no matter what Mr. Molotov might say at Geneva, he could not be trusted?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that those were the words they used. Generally speaking, I think that officials of N.A.T.O. have used discretion in what they say. It is quite true that in some countries, such as ours, there are different arrangements about what shall be said by military spokesmen than there are in other countries, but in an international organisation the rules that may apply to one country do not necessarily apply to all.
    Mr. Beswick: If we in this country have rules which, according to the Prime Minister—and I agree with him—are slightly higher than those existing elsewhere, have we not a duty to try to raise the general standard of international conduct in these matters? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that some of the remarks by Field Marshal Montgomery and Lord Ismay were extremely offensive?
    The Prime Minister: As far as Field Marshal Montgomery's speech was concerned, I thought it was a stimulating one as regards military organisation. I do not think anyone felt that the speeches did any particular harm.

    RADIO AND TELEVISION SERVICES
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister if he will move to set up a Select Committee to consider the relationship between Parliament and the radio and television services.
    The Prime Minister: I am not convinced that this is a matter which calls for consideration by a Select Committee.
    Mr. Donnelly: Did the Prime Minister not say that this matter would soon be debated? Is he aware that it might be best to have a debate after a Select Commitee, because a number of things are involved and we very much 'need information about the whole background of the problem? For example, is the Prime Minister aware that breaches of Privilege are normally enforced through you, Mr. Speaker, acting for the House, but that in this case the authority has been handed over, not to an official of the House, but to party leaders? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that if ever there was a case for the appointment of a Select Committee, this might be the very one? Then the House would have the information and could have the debate.
    The Prime Minister: All I said when there were Questions the other day was that if a number of hon. Members felt that they wished to discuss the matter, I thought it would be right to make the approach for such a discussion through the usual channels. I still think that that is the normal way to proceed.
    Mr. C. Pannell:.Is the Prime Minister aware that the great majority of Members of the House who do not broadcast at all look rather with favour upon the 14-day rule until more equitable arrangements are made so that those who are not eccentrics or photogenics or superannuated statesmen or one-time potential Prime Ministers have an occasional chance? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that pending a more equitable arrangement,

    1211
    most hon. Members are conscious that they are elected on the broadest possible franchise by probably 60,000 people, and they think that election to this place is an honour and that selection by Mr. Speaker when we wish to speak, in the presence of people who can contradict, is rather better and more preferable in the present age than selection at the caprice of an often irresponsible and ignorant producer?
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    The Prime Minister: I gather that the hon. Member speaks for a large volume of opinion in the House.

    CROWN LAND TRUSTEES (CHAIRMANSHIP)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Prime Minister whether any steps have yet been taken towards the appointment of a Chairman of the proposed Board of Trustees for Crown Lands.
    The Prime Minister: The setting up of a Board of Trustees of Crown Lands will require legislation. Meanwhile Her Majesty has been pleased to approve the appointment of Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve to a vacant post as Commissioner of Crown Lands, with a view to his being appointed in due course Chairman of the proposed Board of Trustees.
    Mr. Hurd: While I very much welcome this appointment, can my right hon. Friend say when he hopes to proceed with the legislation, so that the Board of Trustees may get fully into its stride?
    The Prime Minister: It will, of course, be necessary for the new Commissioner to consult about this but I hope that there will be no undue delay.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: Does this imply that Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve will now surrender the chairmanship of the Road Haulage Disposal Board? Does it mean that the sales of road vehicles have come to an end?
    The Prime Minister: I do not know how far I ought to be drawn into that but I understand that the work of the Board is diminishing.

    ECONOMIC SITUATION (DISCUSSIONS)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that, since his recent discussions with representatives of the Trades Union Congress and the Employers Federation, more than twelve national trade unions have made wage applications to the employers on behalf of their members totalling some 2 million workers; that, since the Budget, a number of other trade unions have declared their intentions of making wage applications; and, as these applications will accentuate the present inflationary spiral, whether he will again arrange to meet the Trades Union Congress and the Employers Federation for the purpose of discussing our present economic and industrial difficulties.
    The Prime Minister: I am aware that a large number of wage claims have been, or will shortly be, presented.
    In company with my right hon. Friends the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Labour and National Service, I discussed the economic situation and the supplementary Budget with representatives of the Trades Union Congress on Tuesday last. It was agreed that there should be a further meeting in the near future. My colleagues and I are to meet representatives of the British Employers Confederation to discuss the same matters.
    Mr. Lewis: While I note with pleasure that the Prime Minister has taken the opportunity to see the Trades Union Congress General Council, may I ask whether he can state whether the General Council welcomes with great acclamation the alleged progressive proposals in the Budget, or did the members of the General Council tell the Prime Minister that, on behalf of the workers, they viewed those proposals with dismay? Did they also ask the right hon. Gentle-may to consider abolishing at least the unfair Purchase Tax proposals and whether he would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider this?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that that would be a question for me to answer. As far as I am concerned, I confine myself to the agreed statement issued at the end of the meeting.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Dodds. Question No. 49.
    Dame Irene Ward: May I ask a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker?
    Mr. Speaker: No.
    Dame Irene Ward: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As this Question raises a lot of points in which all people are interested, would it not be fair to allow someone on this side of the House to ask a supplementary question?
    Mr. Speaker: The trouble about the Question was that it raised so many points that it could have been debated for the whole of Question Time and much beyond. Mr. Dodds.

    NATIONAL SERVICE
    Mr. Doddsasked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the dissatisfaction in respect of his proposals for National Service in which the two years' period is retained with the progressive increase in the age of call-up; and if he will give consideration to the holding of an authoritative and impartial inquiry into the use of manpower in the Armed Forces as a matter of public importance, with a view to reducing the period of National Service.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Dodds: Surely the Prime Minister appreciates that yesterday the most able Tory Minister failed completely to justify an extension of the period of unsettlement and frustration before call-up. Since general opinion condemns the scheme, will the Prime Minister state how he was persuaded to accept such a cock-eyed scheme? Will he also explain something that was never answered yesterday: why are the young men of this country called upon to do two years' service when those of most of the N.A.T.O. Allies do less?
    The Prime Minister: The whole of this matter was debated yesterday and the House took its decision. In reply to the second part of the question, I would only repeat what is well known in all parts of the House, that this country has a number of commitments overseas, some of them in distant lands, upon which our own prosperity depends.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week'?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry CrookShank): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 7TH NOVEMBER—Debate on the disappearance of two former Foreign Office officials, which will take place on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
It is hoped to obtain the Second Reading of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
TUESDAY, 8TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Finance Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 9TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the House of Commons Disqualification Bill.
THURSDAY, 10TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Sugar Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money and Ways and Means Resolutions.
Committee and remaining stages of the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Bill.
FRIDAY, 11TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Post Office and Telegraph (Money) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution; and, if there is time, Second Reading of the Local Government Elections Bill.
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could arrange for there to be more time to discuss the Prayer which is being put down against the Post Office telephone and telegraphic charges, because usually Prayers can be discussed for only a very short time in the evening? In view of the great amount of interest in the country in this matter, could the right hon. Gentleman find time for a more extended debate?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not know about that, because I do not yet know on what date the Opposition are proposing to put it down, but no doubt talks will take place about it.
Mr. C. Davies: In view of the statements made today and also last week, by the Prime Minister, could the right

1215
hon. Gentleman find time in the very near future for a debate on the question of the 14-day rule which applies to broadcasting?
Mr. Crookshank: I have not promised any time yet, and the reception of the supplementary question of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) to Question No. 46 did not sound as if such a debate would be desired by all quarters of the House, but if there is a general wish for a debate on this subject, then, as the Prime Minister said, representations can be made through the usual channels.
Dame Irene Ward: On the business for Monday, may I ask whether the Foreign Secretary will be replying to the questions in the Motion* which stands in my name on the Notice Paper? I should very much like answers to those questions.
Mr. Crookshank: It is intended at present that the Foreign Secretary should open the debate.
Dame Irene Ward: And answer those questions?
Mr. Crookshank: I cannot dictate his speech, any more than my hon. Friend can.
Mr. C. Davies: With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that a debate on the 14-day rule could be arranged through the usual channels, how can they possibly work in this case when the leading Members of the Opposition are really the strongest supporters of that ban?
Mr. H. Morrison: The right hon. and learned Gentleman was, too.
Mr. Davies: Cannot we make direct representations to the right hon. Gentleman on this matter?
Mr. H. Fraser: Would my right hon. Friend consider, before the Christmas Recess, having at least a half-day's discussion of the Reports and Statements of Account of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electricity Board? In ten years they have not been discussed. It seems to me that at a time when the capital expenditure of the Government and others is being considered there should be reassurance that the very large sums involved in those accounts are being entirely well spent.
*[See OFFICIAL REPORT, Monday. 7th November, 1955, column 1485.]
Mr. Crookshank: I cannot pledge myself as far as Christmas. We have only just come back again. However, I will note what my hon. Friend has said.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: Have the Government yet come to any conclusions on the Report of the Select Committee on Private Bill Procedure?
Mr. Crookshank: No, but I hope that we shall be able to make a statement fairly soon. The matter is still being considered.
Mr. Nicholson: Reverting to the answer given to the Leader of the Opposition, did my right hon. Friend imply that he was going beyond or outside the arrangement at present adopted, and which was adopted on the recommendation of a Select Committee, for the way in which Prayers should be dealt with?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not think that that was implicit in what the right hon. Gentleman asked me.
Mr. Monslow: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider having a debate on what, in the light of the Budget, has now become the parlous plight of the old-age pensioners?
Mr. Crookshank: That is not likely in the immediate future.
Sir F. Medlicott: In view of the seriousness of the issues raised by the disappearance of Burgess and Maclean and the fact that these issues have occupied a term of over twenty years, is it not possible to give rather more than three hours to the discussion of this matter, which is vital to the security of the Realm?
Mr. Crookshank: I think my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. The debate is for all Monday, not only three hours.
Mr. Paget: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Committee stage of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill is the only opportunity this House has to discuss a number of highly important subjects, including the whole of the aliens' law? That being so, is it really fair to put that down for after business on Monday? I shall be putting down a number of Amendments, and I think that some of my hon. Friends will be, too.
Mr. Crookshank: I am sorry that there seems to be some misunderstanding about Monday. I said that there will be a debate on the disappearance of the two former Foreign Office officials, which will last the whole day, and that it is hoped to obtain the Second Reading, not the Committee stage, of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.
Mr. Paget: It was a slip of the tongue.
Mr. Crookshank: It was a slip of the hon. and learned Gentleman's ears.
Mr. Usborne: Referring to the 14-day broadcasting ban, may I ask whether the Leader of the House remembers that the Prime Minister, I think on two occasions, said that so far as he was concerned it would probably be possible, after discussion through the usual channels, to have a debate on the ban? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I suspect that the House cheered what my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) said a few minutes ago probably not entirely because it approved of the content of what he said—[HON. MEMBERS: "We did."]—but because of the way in which he said it, which was very funny?
Mr. Donnelly: Could we have an answer on what is to be done about the 14-day rule? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the very worst way in which we could deal with it is to listen to the hidebound or the envious, and that this ban involves people outside the House as well, and that there is a principle involved? Could we not clear the matter up and have done with it by having time allotted for a debate upon it?
Mr. Crookshank: I think I made it quite clear. First of all, my right hon. Friend did not promise any debate. What he said was, and what I say is, that if there is a general desire for a debate it can be made known through the usual channels.
Mr. Usborne: But what is the use of the usual channels in this case?
Mr. Lewis: Has the Minister's attention been drawn to a statement in last night's "Evening Standard" which says:
"The Burgess-Maclean debate is to take place on Monday. The Prime Minister is to take part in that debate."?
1218
Can I ask whether or not this information was given to the "Evening Standard" by the Government last night before the House received it, or is this another official leak that we keep getting from Government Departments whereby the House does not receive information before the Press outside? Has the Minister's attention been drawn to this?
Mr. Crookshank: I have not seen that.
Mr. Speaker: That is really not a question on business at all.
Mr. Rankin Mr. Rankin rose—
Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. Member wish to ask a question on the business for next week?
Mr. Rankin: Yes, Sir. I should like to ask the Leader of the House, in view of his failure to reply to the question by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis), whether he can say whether it was Burgess or Maclean who supplied the information?
Mr. Lewis: On a point of order. May I raise this matter with you, Mr. Speaker, as something which affects every hon. Member, particularly back benchers on both sides of the House, in connection with business? We are told that as back benchers we can obtain information which is usually asked for by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition on Thursday afternoon. I should like to ask what safeguards and guarantees we have as back benchers when it is obvious from this Press report that an official hand-out must have been given to the Press, since there was a verbatim statement in last night's "Evening Standard" that a debate would take place on Monday next and that the Prime Minister would take part in it. To what extent can we as back benchers have the right to see that the Government do not give the Press information before we receive it in the House?
Mr. Drayson: Is it not a fact that discussions take place between the usual channels before the business programme is agreed upon?
Mr. Speaker: No doubt they do, but what people write in newspapers is no concern of Ministers and really should not be the basis of a Parliamentary Question. I do not think that there is anything very serious in this. Newspaper

1219
reporters are often very intelligent men. They often anticipate events, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. I do not think that there is any great principle involved in this.
Mr. H. Morrison: I submit, with respect, Mr. Speaker, that my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) is in order. The Leader of the House has announced the business for next week and I submit, with respect, that it was legitimate for my hon. Friend to ask why a newspaper had information last night about some of the business next week, which is only conveyed to the House this afternoon. I submit that my hon. Friend's question was relevant to the statement about business.
Mr. Speaker: I did not in any sense rule the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) out of order. I only said, in doing my best to reply to his question, that I did not think that there was any great point of principle in it, because newspapers publish all sorts of things and I do not think that one can make a great point of constitutional principle about something that appears in a newspaper.
Mr. Lewis: Perhaps I did not put my point of order to you in clear enough language, Mr. Speaker. The point that I want to make is that we as back benchers have very limited rights in the House. As back benchers, we do not know officially about the following week's business until 3.30 on Thursday afternoons. Then, if hon. Members wish to raise certain matters they can, subject to catching your eye, put a supplementary question. But if, in fact, the Press has quite obviously been given an official hand-out—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If it is not an official hand-out I do not know how the Press can say definitely what type of debate is to take place on a certain day and who is to take part in it. Can back benchers have the same privileges given to them as are obviously given to the "Evening Standard"?
Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the hon. Member has proved his case that special privileges have been given to the "Evening Standard." I have seen many instances in my life of intelligent anticipation by newspapers, and that is all that I can say about it. As regards back benchers—and I here speak as a fairly old Member—if I wanted to find out in advance what the business was to be, so as to make some arrangements of my own about it, I generally found what are called "the usual channels" very helpful, in so far as they could be. I think that the advice that I can give to the hon. Member is that if he wishes to have the earliest possible information about any particular item of business that is coming on he should ask his Whips. I am sure that they would be quite as helpful to him as to others.
Mr. Bellenger: Would it not be true to say, Mr. Speaker, that your own experience in obtaining advance information was due to the way you proceeded to obtain it?
Mr. Crookshank: May I finally settle this matter by saying that no statement was made to the "Evening Standard" or anybody else about Monday's business? What I announce to the House on Thursdays is very often fluid until the last few minutes. There is always the possibility of last-minute changes, so that anything said anywhere prior to that is not much more than intelligent anticipation.
Mr. Berwick: Does not much of this arise from the statement made yesterday, or the day before, by the Prime Minister, who said that it was possible, within a fortnight of what was to be debated in the House for any individual, whether on behalf of the Press or the radio, to obtain information?
Mr. Speaker: It seems to me quite clear that the business of the House can never be rigidly forecast. There are always all sorts of contingencies that arise and upset the most carefully arranged plan, but we have to put up with that. If the hon. Member for West Ham, North asks his Whips, I am sure that they will help him in every way they can.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CLEAN AIR BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.47 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill fulfils an undertaking given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government nine months ago. It is based on the recommendations of the Committee, presided over by Sir Hugh Beaver, which reported its conclusions just a year ago. I should like to say straight away, and not for the first time, what an immense debt we owe to Sir Hugh and his colleagues for the work that they did.
  We think that the Bill represents a big step forward in combating the scourge of air pollution, the evils of which are by now widely known. It outlines a series of practical steps which we believe will make, within a short term of years, our towns and cities cleaner and healthier places in which to live. Since 80 per cent. of our population are urban, it follows that the Bill bears upon the health of at least three-quarters of our people. I hope that much of it will be common ground between us.
  This is not the first discussion that we have had on the subject. As there is a good deal to be said about the proposals, I do not intend to take much of the time of the House in discussing the background of the Bill. The facts about the evils of dirty air have been most convincingly stated by the Beaver Committee, are widely known and, I think, as widely accepted.
  Nor need I stress the need for legislation. Sir Hugh Beaver's Committee concluded that our law on smoke pollution was inadequate and required radical revision. A weakness of the smoke abatement provisions of the Public Health Acts is, as many hon. Members know, that they do not directly prohibit smoke, however harmful or unnecessary it may be. It has to be proved that something from a particular chimney constitutes a "nuisance." Moreover, the Acts make
  1222
  no significant provision for smoke from domestic chimneys.
  In passing, perhaps I should refer here to the initiative which some local authorities have already taken under local Acts particularly for establishing smokeless zones. In this respect we owe a great deal to their initiative. However, I think it must be accepted now that the problem requires general rather than local powers.
  The next thing I want to stress is that we have not been idle in the months since the Beaver Committee reported. There have been consultations with industry and with representatives of the local authorities. I can say that they accept, indeed support, the broad principles of the Bill, subject, of course, to reservations on certain particulars.
  As hon. Members will have noted from the last Clause of the Bill, this is a United Kingdom Measure and its provisions will apply generally in Scotland as in England and Wales. The differences concerning Scotland do no more than reflect differences in Scottish legislation and procedure. My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate will be available during our discussion to deal with any particularly Scottish points.
  Now I turn to the provisions of the Bill. Its main purposes are well summarised in paragraph 2 of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, and I will now say something about each of these four principal objectives. The first objective of the Bill is to prohibit the emission of dark smoke from chimneys, railway engines and vessels, and these provisions follow closely the recommendations of the Beaver Committee. We accept that dark smoke is a nuisance, an evil, and generally is quite unnecessary. Given sound equipment and careful operation, bituminous coal can nearly always be burned in industrial furnaces without producing more than a light haze of smoke.
  Clause 1, then, insists upon the efficient use of efficient plant. What is to be expected is that there are circumstances in which the emission of dark smoke is unavoidable, and such exceptions are based on technical considerations. When a furnace is first lit, or during soot blowing; there may be short emissions of dark smoke. For these and for breakdowns, for defects which could not have been prevented or because suitable fuel could not

  1223
  be obtained, some allowance must be made. We must face the fact that these provisions will involve improvement and alteration of many industrial plants.
  It was on this account that the Beaver Committee recommended a seven-year period of grace in which to show that it had been impracticable to effect the necessary improvements which might be considered a defence by means of certificates issued at intervals of one year or less. That we accept and that is the purpose of Clause 2. I am aware that there has been criticism, and no doubt we shall hear more of it during the debate this afternoon, that these first two Clauses offer too many loopholes. We do not think so. At a later stage we will willingly discuss in detail any proposal designed reasonably to tighten up these Clauses, but in all that we propose we have to be realistic, and I shall have more to say about that later.
  The second main objective of the Bill is to see that industrial furnaces installed in the future can be operated, as far as is practicable, without emitting smoke. That is self-explanatory. Clearly, it is right to insist upon proper standards for new installations.
  The third main objective—and we are still discussing the industrial sphere—consists of provisions for reducing emissions of grit and dust from furnaces. It is made obligatory for all to use such means as are practicable to minimise the emission of grit and dust from all furnaces, new or existing. The operative word here is "practicable" and hon. Members will find it defined at some length in Clause 28 (1), the interpretation Clause of the Bill.
  We have to recognise that effiective action is not always practicable. The problem here is not quite the same as that of smoke. Smoke can be prevented, or largely prevented, by efficient combustion arrangements, but effective prevention of grit and dust calls for special plant and that, I think it will be accepted, especially in the case of small works, may present considerable difficulties. We have to ensure that large furnaces to be installed in the future, which are likely to emit large quantities of grit and dust, must be properly equipped. That, broadly, is the effect of Clause 5. All new furnaces which burn pulverised fuel or large quantities
  1224
  of other solid fuel, will, in future, be equipped with efficient arrestment plant.
  These three provisions which I have just summarised covering smoke, grit and dust, deal with industry. The fourth, to which I now turn, is concerned with smoke from other sources, that is to say, domestic and commercial premises. We should not under-rate the contribution which must be made in this fourth category if our proposals are to be effective. Nearly half the smoke in the air comes from our domestic chimneys and hon. Members may remember that on this point the Beaver Committee reported:
  "No cure can, therefore, be found for the heavy smoke pollution of our cities and towns unless the domestic chimney is dealt with. In our view there would be little justification for requiring industry and commerce to take all possible measures to prevent smoke, often at considerable cost, if the problem of domestic smoke were not also tackled."
  In many ways this is a much more difficult problem than industrial smoke. The bituminous coal can usually be used with little or no smoke in industrial furnaces given efficient methods. In most of the fires used for domestic heating, it cannot be so used.
  The prevention of domestic smoke will be a major operation involving radical changes in fuel use, involving problems of supply, large-scale alterations of domestic appliances and, of course, a great degree of public willingness. We propose that this operation should be carried through by the gradual extension of smoke control areas similar to the smokeless zones already established in a number of towns under local authority powers. Clause 8 of this Bill empowers local authorities to establish these areas by means of orders confirmed by the Minister.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: How can we do that in Stoke?
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: Or in Sheffield?
  Mr. Deedes: The order may apply to specified classes of building or it may exempt classes of building or any particular building. Much of this, as any hon. Member knows whose area may already be under one of these local schemes, is no more than an extension of the powers which a number of local authorities have got under their local Acts.

  1225
  What is new is the provision which we have made for the payment of grants by local authorities and the Exchequer towards the cost incurred by the owners and occupiers of houses in making the necessary changes to appliances. To the cost, the Minister may make an Exchequer contribution equal to 40 per cent. of the approved expenditure. I think that the simplest way to put it is to say that the ratio of cost would be borne as follows: by the owner or occupier, 30 per cent. or less; by the local authority, 30 per cent. or more, since it may contribute more if it wishes; and by the Exchequer, 40 per cent. No doubt these figures will be under discussion later and all I will say now is that we believe they represent a fair distribution between the main parties concerned.
  Dr. Barnett Stross: The hon. Gentleman said that nearly half the smoke which pollutes the atmosphere comes from domestic chimneys. Has he any figures for the amount of sulphur pollution by domestic chimneys, compared with industrial chimneys? Is it, as I have been informed, about a quarter, not a half?
  Mr. Deedes: What I said was based on generalisations on the subject. I accept that. If there are figures to be obtained on the subject I will do what I can for the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: This is very important, because the hon. Gentleman is developing the argument that he is preventing the emission of black smoke from household chimneys. We cannot have any form of combustion without the emission of some form of gas and the absence of black smoke means a higher sulphur content than there would have been with black smoke.
  Mr. Deedes: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to continue we shall reach in a moment the point which is causing him concern.
  I should perhaps stress that this is not a battle for the open hearth. It is not part of our intention to put a sudden end to the open fire which remains, if not the most efficient, certainly the most popular, method of heating living rooms. Sir Hugh Beaver's Committee recognised that this would be a long-term policy and referred to a period of fifteen years before
  1226
  the black areas would be covered, and we recognise that progress will depend very much on the willingness of local authorities and of the public to co-operate.
  In order not to take up too much time on this part of my speech, I have deliberately given a summary of the Bill. As hon. Members have had the Bill in their hands perhaps for longer than is usual, I hope that may suffice. Having dealt broadly with the provisions, I should, however, like to touch on several other matters which I know are uppermost in the minds of hon. Members concerned with this subject.
  First, of course, is the question of smokeless fuels, to which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power has given a great deal of thought. In the black areas alone fuel consumption of about 19 million tons of house coal will eventually have to be replaced by smokeless fuels, and the course of transition must largely depend, I think it will be accepted, upon developments in the fuel industry. We believe that this objective can be gradually achieved over a period of fifteen years. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power will be present during the debate and will gladly intervene on any matter of detail of special concern to any hon. Member. For my part, at this juncture I will not enter into more detail on the question of smokeless fuel.
  The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) referred to sulphur, and I should like to say a word about that. We recognise that sulphur gases are one of the most harmful forms of pollution, perhaps the most harmful, but the problem of prevention is intractable and cannot be cured, in the present stage of technical knowledge, by legislation. The Beaver Committee recognised that. Its Report did not recommend any legislative measures to deal with the question of sulphur.
  The problems are technical and progress must be in the development of a satisfactory method of removing sulphur dioxide from the flue gases of large fuel-burning installations such as power stations, and research into methods of preventing or reducing the release of sulphur when fuel is burned. The Government have accepted the Beaver Committee's recommendations that the most

  1227
  efficient practicable method of removing sulphur should be used in new power stations in or near populated areas in future, and research on aspects of that problem is being pressed forward.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: In respect of the power stations and gas plant, have the Government accepted this as a problem to be tackled immediately—and by "immediately" I mean within a reasonable time from now?
  Mr. Deedes: I have stressed the difficulties, without further research, of doing anything immediately. I do not want to accept the phrase used by the hon. Member, for I think the word "immediate" would be misleading. We accept that the most efficient way of removing sulphur, the most practical method, should be used at new power stations, and that will be seen through.
  Mr. Winterbottom: The hon. Gentleman said something about existing stations.
  Mr. Deedes: I said new power stations.
  I want to say a word about the administration of these proposals. We recognise, as do many hon. Members, that the Bill will impose immense and increased responsibilities on the local authorities. For all of them it will be a formidable task, and very much depends on them. That hard-worked band of sanitary inspectors, who already have a great many duties—on top of them such current duties as slum clearance—will have a heavy additional load, and there may be problems of additional staff. I think it is fair to say that these additional responsibilities, which may involve problems of technical staff and the need to find them, are in some measure an answer to those who think we should go further and faster than the Bill proposes.
  This additional load on local authorities brings me to another anxiety which has been expressed—namely, the proposal made by the Beaver Committee that the work of the Alkali Inspectorate should take in a wider field of responsibility.
  Mr. Charles Royle: How does what the hon. Gentleman is saying about the responsibility of local authorities fit with the White Paper sent out to local authorities by the Chancellor
  1228
  and the Minister of Housing and Local Government last week asking for more economies?
  Mr. Deedes: I said that in the policy for clean air—which we have already discussed—over a term of years the responsibilities of the local authorities will gradually increase. As to the timing, I shall have something to say towards the end of my speech about when those responsibilities will arise.
  Mrs. Harriet Slater: Does not the hon. Gentleman mean that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has killed the Bill before we have discussed it?
  Mr. Deedes: I do not accept that for a moment and I do not think what I have said about the additional technical staff who may be required for this purpose is in any way inconsistent with anything in the White Paper.
  I was referring to this anxiety about extending the field of the Alkali Inspecstorate. The principle has long been accepted—ever since the original Act at the beginning of the century—that the control of pollution from certain industrial processes should be the responsibility not of local authority officers, but of a central body of highly qualified technical inspectors. I do not think that there has ever been a quarrel over that principle. For that reason a number of chemical and other industrial processes are already registered under the Alkali Acts.
  I should stress that an extension in the field of alkali responsibility should not be regarded as diminishing the powers or rights of local authorities. [HON. MEMBERS: "It definitely does."] As we have already seen, they will have sufficient to do on their own account and the second thing is that the intention in extending this field is in no sense to give exemption, but rather to ensure that control is effectively exercised by qualified inspectors familiar with the problems of the industry with which they have to deal.
  Mr. Maurice Orbach: Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us how many bodies are employed by the Alkali Inspectorate and how many it is proposed to employ when the Bill becomes law?
  Mr. Deedes: Not without notice, but we will get the information for which the hon. Member has asked.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: The Alkali Inspectorate has seven full staff and two chief inspectors wholly engaged on administrative duties. How can they be expected to deal with the Alkali Acts?
  Mr. Deedes: Their field of responsibility is being extended and their personnel will have to be increased and is being increased.
  I want now to refer to the Clean Air Council. The Beaver Committee did not suggest, and we do not think it necessary, that this should be a statutory body. But we do feel that a body such as the Clean Air Council should be set up which the Ministers concerned could consult on ways of effectively implementing our clean air policy. I can, therefore, say that we accept the Committee's recommendations, and in due course my right hon. Friend will announce the Council's composition and terms of reference. That will mean a Clean Air Council about which a number of hon. Members have expressed themselves between the date of the Bill's publication and today.
  The Bill will come into operation on the appointed day or days. There can be different days for its different provisions. The Beaver Committee thought that a period of three years from November, 1954, should elapse before the dark smoke provisions were put into force and we agree that that is desirable. Local authorities will, possibly, also profit from the short period of preparation for the tasks which lie ahead. But it seems to us desirable that as far as possible the other provisions of the Bill should come into operation simultaneously which will give them and the Bill far greater impact.
  It is, therefore, proposed that all the provisions referring to industrial smoke, grit and dust should come into operation in the early part of 1958. The intervening two years, I need hardly say, will not be treated by anybody as a respite, but as a time for active preparation, and that was the point I made when I referred to future timing. The smoke control area provision need not wait until 1958. In principle, the provisions are the same as those which some local authorities already exercise, but we think it would be unreasonable to hold back the financial assistance which
  1230
  the Bill gives to householders and therefore we propose to fix the appointed day for Clauses 8 to 11 which cover this aspect as soon as practicable after the Bill becomes law.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: The third point in connection with the appointed day—in my opinion the most vital of all—is the appointed day to which reference is made in Clause 2. Would my hon. Friend tell us what he has in mind in regard to the appointed day in that context?
  Mr. Deedes: It seems to be fairly clearly stated in Clause 2. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend and others will wish to discuss that in greater detail at a later stage. At the moment, I have nothing to add to what is already in print.
  In some quarters a feeling has been expressed that the Bill is not sufficiently comprehensive and that it does not go far enough. That is always a very easy charge to make. There are very few examples in recent history of where a committee or Royal Commission has reported and had its proposals put into terms of legislation so quickly after the report has been published. There must be members of a good many Royal Commissions whose tomes are now getting dusty on various people's shelves who would rejoice if they had seen half as much done with the recommendations they made. Of course, it is always possible to say that the Government should have gone further and faster.
  But the success of the Bill will not depend only upon what the Government or Parliament now enact. It will depend just as much on our being able to get whole-hearted—not just willing—cooperation by industry, trades unions, local authorities, employers, householders, and so on. If we are to get a move on, which is the wish of all hon. Members, we must be sure that the best is not made the enemy of the good.
  Mr. Hobson: As the hon. Member is enlisting the aid of the trades unions, I must respectfully point out that stokers have already been proceeded against for creating smoke.
  Mr. Deedes: I do not entirely follow the relevance of that remark.
  A prerequisite of wholehearted cooperation is a general acceptance that it

  1231
  is a practical, fair and sensible programme. That is the merit, indeed, I would say the necessity, of a carefully balanced programme, not so fast, I willingly concede, as some hon. Members would like to go, certainly not as slow as others would wish. We believe that, broadly, the Bill strikes the right mean and, accordingly, that is why I recommend it to the House.
  Mr. Kenneth Robinson: Would the Parliamentary Secretary refer to Clause 15, which deals with railway smoke? It seems to us that that Clause goes no further than present legislation on railway smoke, and that has proved unworkable. I do not know whether he knows that the St. Pancras Borough Council recently prosecuted the British Railways Executive, which pleaded guilty to a charge but was acquitted. The local authority came in for some very unfortunate remarks from the magistrate. This appears to go no further than that.
  Mr. Deedes: In the long run, there is no wholly satisfactory answer to this save the progress which is being made in forms of combustion other than steam, the diesel, electric, and so on. In the short-term the Bill provides the means of prosecuting anyone who is guilty of allowing a railway engine to do what the factory does. What the consequences should be—and that may be what the hon. Gentleman is considering—I will not predict, but the point he has raised underlines what I said earlier about the need to be practical and not to go beyond the point where what is suggested will work.
  4.20 p.m.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: For my part, I find that a Parliamentary occasion of this kind affords me the greatest satisfaction, because both sides of the House are to debate a most important reform, about which we are all agreed in principle, although, after hearing the Parliamentary Secretary's speech. I feel sure that he will find that a great deal of criticism will be levelled at him on account of what he said.
  Nevertheless, today we shall discuss a reform the good effect of which cannot be calculated. I was rather disappointed that the Parliamentary Secretary, who had a great opportunity this afternoon, did
  1232
  not seem to be seized with a sense of urgency. Indeed, his handling of the matter was a little inhuman. This is a most important human problem.
  The Parliamentary Secretary began by saying that he did not think it was necessary to tell the House just why this Bill should be introduced, but, later, he was not consistent. In his peroration, he said that the success of this Bill will not depend upon the provisions in it, but upon the whole-hearted co-operation of the people, the local authorities, the trade unions, and the housewives. Why did he not open by telling the people—I am sure his speech will be quoted on the radio tonight, because it is a most important reform we are discussing—just why he proposed to introduce the Bill?
  After many years of identifying myself with certain reforms, I have discovered that before a reform is acceptable, it is necessary that public opinion must be informed—that comes first—and, also, that the public conscience must be roused. Does the Parliamentary Secretary think that, after his speech, he has roused the public conscience? I have every sympathy with the hon. Gentleman, because I have been a Parliamentary Secretary I have been through it myself and I know precisely how he feels.
  Mr. Deedes: My impression was that the public conscience had been aroused by now, and that the public were looking to the Government to do something about it, with this result.
  Dr. Summerskill: The Parliamentary Secretary must surely appreciate that one provision of the Bill is to try to change the fireplaces of hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country. The hon. Gentleman knows precisely what the British character is like and how traditional we are. I would not admit that the statement which he made about fireplaces, and what he extracted from this Bill, will encourage people to be willing to have their fireplaces changed. There should have been a more human approach, and I do not apologise for saying some of the things that I think the Parliamentary Secretary should have said. Perhaps, the hon. Gentleman is flattering me, and will say that he knew I would say them myself, and, therefore, that he need not do so.

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  On different occasions, I have been a spokesman on a clean milk Bill, and a clean food Bill, and now it gives me tremendous satisfaction to support this Clean Air Bill, which, we hope, will reduce in some degree air pollution. A few months ago, when I was the Member of Parliament for Fulham, West, I would have felt very srongly about this matter, but now I am the Member of Parliament for the industrial constituency of Warrington. [Interruption.] Certainly, I have been very well-chosen. My interest in and knowledge of this question is considerably greater. In fact, when I have spoken for a few minutes more, hon. Members will realise how warmly and emotionally I feel on this subject. This should not be a campaign; it should be a crusade. I thought that the hon. Gentleman, in his last few sentences sounded as if he was advocating a go-slow policy. [HON. MEMBERS: "He was."]
  In the public library of Warrington is a report issued in 1876 on the nuisances caused by the industrial works of Lancashire and Cheshire. It was issued by the Lancashire and Cheshire Association for the Suppression of Noxious Vapours. It was a statement of rather unpleasant facts, which struck a rather helpless and defeatist note. It appeared that in 1876 the forces arrayed against this rather helpless industrial association were too strong for them, and were likely to become stronger. Since then, Warrington, like other industrial towns, has made periodical protests, and I want to read this quotation to the hon. Gentleman, who perhaps will alter his go-slow policy.
  In 1901, in a little paper called "The Dawn," published in Warrington, there appeared this statement:
  "Warrington is choked with smoke, poisoned with foul smells and rendered hideous with staring chimneys."
  Time went on, and later, "The Dawn" said:
  "The scene from the top of the parish church spire, far away below you, is exactly like the three weird sisters in 'Macbeth.' The adjacent chimneys belch their blackness out into the poisoned air; a score of other chimneys close at hand contribute to the gathering cloud; and over the remoter portions of the town it broods In one unbroken pall. Poor Dr. Gornall, the medical officer of health, once got into dreadful trouble at a sanitary congress, by referring to this frightful local scourge."
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  I hope I shall not get into trouble on my return to Warrington, though I do not believe that will be the case, because Warrington now has progressed, and its people will be very depressed when they read the Parliamentary Secretary's speech, after having endured this nuisance for nearly a century.
  On 6th June, 1952, the "Warrington Examiner" printed this letter from a woman, and I quote it to bring the matter up to date:
  "Just how much sun, I wonder, does the town's smoke pall withhold from the unfortunate resident? Brush against a privet hedge in any local suburban garden and one's clothes are marked as badly as if one had stumbled against the grate. The spring flowers have a hangdog air here with smut-spotted and bedraggled narcissi carrying little charm. Even the advent of summer cannot lift the veil of atmosphere pollution. Though many householders then do without coal fires, the dust and grime become even more obvious in the sun's rays."
  Can the Parliamentary Secretary still defend a go-slow policy? Since 1952, Warrington Council has introduced some byelaws to improve matters a little, but these are the conditions in our industrial towns in 1955.
  It is curious that the public are not more concerned with this problem, which vitally affects the well-being of people in the industrial areas. While people become incensed by the spectacle of food being handled by dirty hands and served in unhygienic surroundings, they seem to accept the inhalation of dirty air with a fatalistic indifference. I have been thinking about this matter before coming to this debate, and perhaps the explanation is to be found in the fact that eating and drinking call for a deliberate act, and it is possible to reject dirty or unsavory food. Breathing is generally an involuntary act. Air is invisible, and impurities are only noticed when they are conspicuous.
  These figures will illustrate the point. The body takes in about 3,000 gallons or 38 lbs. of air each day—seven times the average weight of food and drink combined, and the Mellon Institute has reported that
  "More people are devitalised, disabled and poisoned by the impurities contained in smoke-polluted air than by the noxious ingredients in food and water."
  It would be wrong to overstate the case and lead people to think that the implementation of the Bill would eradicate

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  certain diseases, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings), who, I hope, will be called in the debate, will emphasise.
  There has been great exaggeration in some quarters. Smoke pollution does not produce diseases peculiar to itself as does, for instance, polluted water. It must be regarded rather as a contributory factor in diseases which are attributable to other causes. Much of the ill-health for which smoke is probably most directly responsible is in its early stages not recorded, for the symptoms are not classified as a disease.
  In view of conditions in Warrington, I want to emphasise this point—and this relates to the very welcome statement of the Parliamentary Secretary that it is intended to establish a Clean Air Council. I wish to make this comment on the subject of disease so as to rouse the public conscience and also to make it clear to the Parliamentary Secretary and his right hon. Friend that if the Clean Air Council is established it must be made effective. It must not become just one more committee.
  I refer to bronchitis, because I believe the figures about bronchitis in Warrington have been mentioned in the national Press. Bronchitis can appear in any area, but an individual who is exposed to a smoky atmosphere might well develop it whereas he might be free if he lived in a smokeless atmosphere. The serious effect of smoke in relation to pneumonia is not that it directly causes it or makes it more dangerous in the acute stage, but that it impedes the normal healing process. The incidence of cancer of the lung is undoubtedly higher in areas where the degree of air pollution is greatest.
  All this is substantiated by the mortality and morbidity statistics for my own constituency. It was stated in a newspaper recently that in Warrington mortality from bronchitis was the highest in the country. I invited the Warrington Medical Officer of Health to comment on this and he sent me a letter which, I hope, will prove to the Parliamentary Secretary that he must make haste. The letter said:
  "I have been misquoted by the Press as stating that our deaths from bronchitis were the highest in the country. This may well be true, but I have no national figures for all the areas. The fact does remain, however, that our death rate from bronchitis is consistently higher
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  than the average rate for England and Wales. Equally, also, deaths from cancer of the lung and bronchus are much higher in Warrington. It is also interesting to note that deaths from cancer of the lung are much higher in the borough than in the adjoining rural district, which approximate closely to the national average. In the last six years I have noticed that diseases of the chest, and also of the nose and throat, are unusually prevalent in Warrington."
  I have said that I want to bring this to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary, because until he spoke I did not know that the Government had changed their mind. Of course, I understood from the Bill that they had rejected the idea of a Clean Air Council and I intended to emphasise the importance of the matter.
  I want to speak about research, a subject which the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned. If the Clean Air Council is established it will have an opportunity to ensure that there is adequate research. The whole question of the sulphur-dioxide content in the air, and its effects, is one which calls for most detailed investigation. Some of my hon. Friends who have spoken to me on this subject feel that this is the crux of the matter. I was disappointed to find the way in which the Parliamentary Secretary waved aside this most important question. He must know —by now he must have read the speeches and the reports of many authorities—the importance of the presence of sulphur dioxide in the atmosphere.
  Indeed, some people go so far as to declare that the Bill will be of little value because it does not face up to that question. These problems do not concern only those hon. Members who represent urban areas. Smoke cannot be harnessed. I understand that the National Farmers' Union—I do not know whether it has made representations to the Ministry—is far from satisfied with the provisions in the Bill for the prevention of fluorosis, a disease which affects the bone structure of cattle with the most disastrous results.
  I remind the Minister that there is evidence, which is most important in view of our need to produce more food that cattle in the counties with much industry are more affected by tuberculosis than those elsewhere. In fact, I have discovered that the percentage slaughtered under the Tuberculosis Order is approximately four times as great as that for the rest of the country.

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  While we tend to dwell on the effect of air pollution on the physical condition of the population, I should like to say something about the aesthetic considerations and how the Bill relates to them. Factory workers living in a smoke-laden town, denied brightness and colour, deserve our special sympathy, for these conditions affect their whole outlook on life. Not only are they condemned to uncongenial and dirty work, but they emerge into a world which bears all the ugly marks of their industry. When I describe the conditions in the industrial towns of the North, I am conscious of the fact that the Bill, if it is implemented properly, will change the attitude to life of some of the workers in these places.
  It is astonishing to think that a man can be charged with and convicted for a single physical assault but that, on the other hand, he can assualt the olfactory, visual and auditory senses of all his fellow townsmen for the whole of his life and still remain within the law. I should make the punishment fit the crime. I should like to see every guilty man who allows a factory chimney to emit volumes of dark smoke compelled to live within the vicinity of the factory. That would make the Bill effective within a year. What the owner of the factory does today is to have a chimney belching forth filthy smoke while he runs off into nearby pleasant Cheshire and lives there.
  The Warrington magazine which I quoted called for a St. George to destroy the dragon of smoke in Warrington. I have never quite seen either of the Ministers sitting opposite in the rôle of St. George, but I must say that this weapon which has been put into the hands of a St. George opposite is so blunt that it may not even wound the dragon, much less kill it.
  While the Bill adopts the principal recommendations of the Beaver Committee, it has been hedged by so many savers and waivers as to render it abortive unless we exercise the greatest vigilance in its administration. It seems to have provided a mesh through which the indifferent or the incompetent producer of smoke can escape. Indeed, listening to the Parliamentary Secretary, it appeared to me almost as though the Government had deliberately framed the Measure so as to let industrialists escape.
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  One need go no further than Clause 1 (3). This Clause prohibits dark smoke from chimneys, but then gives any factory owner the chance to plead successfully that the fuel used was unsuitable. That makes nonsense of the Bill, complete nonsense. The lowest grade of fuel can be used provided the equipment is efficient and there is a skilled man in attendance. Surely the Parliamentary Secretary and his right hon. Friend must have had advice on the subject. They must have known the simple fact that the lowest grade of fuel could be used, and still the chimney would not emit smoke, provided the equipment was efficient. Have not they been told this?
  Mr. Hobson: They have been told many times.
  Dr. Summerskill: I thought that this was elementary. I was advised by a number of people who are experts, and if the Opposition can get such advice, surely the powerful Government can. If that is so—
  Mr. Hobson: They have been warned off.
  Dr. Summerskill: —why are they allowing the inefficient, incompetent factory owner or indifferent factory owner to escape in this way? We should like to know why. We should like to be told specifically if the Minister knew that the lowest grade of fuel can be used in a furnace, and, provided the equipment is efficient and there is a skilled man in attendance, there need not be the emission of dark smoke. We want to know, because if he did know that, then why has he allowed to escape the factory owner who is indifferent to the needs of the people living in the vicinity of his factory?
  Let us go on to Clause 2. It has already been mentioned, but I think that the Minister will hear this again. This anti-social dark smoke producer is to be given seven years in which to continue to infect the neighbourhood—seven years —and help to produce the mortality and morbidity figures such as I have read out from Warrington. In 1875, there was this Report about the conditions in Lancashire, and yet in 1955 the Government come to this House and say, "Let us give them seven years more before they are expected to do anything." How can the Minister defend that?
  Mr. Dudley Williams: Surely the right hon. Lady will agree that this report, written in 1875, was available in the years between 1945 and 1951? Why did she not get her hon. Friends to do something about it?
  Dr. Summerskill: I have an excellent answer to that. Does the hon. Gentleman know how the Beaver Committee was set up? The Beaver Committee was set up after representations were made by the Labour-controlled London County Council. The Committee made representations to the Government, and said that this must be dealt with immediately. Perhaps, if the hon. Gentleman had been here, he would recall that between 1945 and 1950 the Welfare State was established in this country, and that we spent day after day and night after night tramping through the Division Lobbies introducing reforms which his hon. Friends should have introduced fifty years ago.
  Mr. Williams: The party opposite was wasting time on nationalisation.
  Dr. Summerskill: It is not a good excuse to say I am wasting time. The hon. Gentleman put the question.
  I recognise that this is a highly technical subject, and in this matter I have the highest respect for the experts. I have consulted the experts and whatever I say on this question of Clauses 1 and 2 is as a direct result of consulting the experts. Therefore, I think it only right and proper that in my criticisms of details of the Bill I should quote experts which hon. Members on either side of the House will respect and recognise as men who have no particular political affiliations, but are anxious only to ensure that the air of Britain is made cleaner.
  The annual conference of the National Smoke Abatement Society was recently held, during which many authorities spoke on this Bill. I have chosen—and I think that the House will agree that it is a proper choice—to quote the Superintendent Smoke Inspector of Sheffield, Mr. Batey, who should, I think, know a great deal about the subject. His speech was reported in the "Municipal Journal" of 14th October. This official, I think it will be agreed, uses very strong language for an official. Mr. Batey's words were reported thus:
  "If the Bill were accepted as it stood, the off-spring would be still born—strangled by
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  timidity; denied the breath of life by ineptitude.
  The first section was most commendable but as soon as they reached line 10 they found that the Minister was given powers to exempt 'classes of case' and 'limitations as may be specified.' Unless the Minister's discretion was applied with the greatest discrimination and only in exceptional circumstances, the power in the Bill, to license smoke could not be denied.
  Three well-nigh impregnable barriers to successful smoke prosecution were built up by the Bill—lighting-up, failure of apparatus and unsuitable fuel.
  The 'unsuitable fuel' defence could hardly ever be rebutted, for the fuel alleged to be unsuitable would necessarily have been consumed during the commission of the offence! The defendant would always state that it was the best he could get, and that in any event its unsuitability only came to light when it actually produced dark smoke instead of the light haze which he had been led to expect. Unforseeable technical difficulties would also be pleaded and these two defences would either exonerate or severely mitigate the offence.
  Lighting-up of furnaces could be accomplished either carelessly or with a minimum and defined standard of smoke emission.
  'Where maximum strength was wanted in this Bill we have a maximum weakness which was not even thought of in the outdated legislation contained in the Public Health Act. 1936,' Mr. Batey declared.
  In considering the grit and dust paragraphs beginning in section 4, the immediate difficulty of 'any practicable means' arose and when they looked for the definition of 'practicable' in section 28 they found that it was fatal to the purpose of the Act."
  Mr. Batey says that ineptitude—a very strong word for an official—
  "was shown in the use of the word 'practicable.' The word was used no less than 12 times in the first 13 pages of the Bill (and these were the pages that mattered) with varying grades of qualification.
  The greatest disappointment of the Bill probably lay in the grit and dust provisions. No standards were laid down whatever. If a firm have installed grit arrestment apparatus and was not using it or allowing gross inefficiency in its use, how could the local authority take suitable action?"
  Then, on the subject of fireplaces,
  "Dealing with section 8 on smoke control areas"—
  Mr. Nabarro: I am sure that the right hon. Lady will admit that of the three defences she quoted—the first in regard to breakdown, the second in regard to lighting-up, and the third in regard to unsuitable fuel—the first two are absolutely valid reasons for emitting smoke, as the Beaver Report recommends. The only one which is arguable is unsuitable fuel.

  1241
  The first two the Beaver Committee recommended as being valid causes of smoke emission.
  Dr. Summerskill: I am sure the hon. Member heard what I said. I mentioned the question of unsuitable fuel and explained it quite carefully, but in the quotation which I have read Mr. Batey mentions the other two factors. I emphasise the factor of unsuitable fuel, which, the hon. Member agrees, calls for criticism.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: May I, through my right hon. Friend, ask the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Navarro) a question? Will he also agree that a machine now exists which, when properly controlled by trained people, emits smoke which is of such a limited quantity, even during the lighting up stage, that it is not discernible?
  Dr. Summerskill: I now turn to the question of fireplaces. The House will agree that to change the fireplaces of the nation will be a big administrative job. The Parliamentary Secretary talked about fuel and administration, which are Committee points and we shall raise them and move suitable Amendments when the time comes.
  I want to quote what Mr. Batey said about Clause 8, because it is so easy for hon. Members on this side of the House to be charged with not being authorities on this matter, and with not having the knowledge of the advisers of the Government. Having been a Minister myself, I know perfectly well that the Government can call upon the finest advice in the country. Therefore, when challenging a Bill of this kind, we try to produce evidence which is of equal weight to the advice proffered to the Government. Dealing with Clause 8, Mr. Batey says:
  "The criticism must be made that they did not know what 'undue smoke' meant. In a smoke control area any smoke was 'undue.' Again, a false criterion was established regarding the Minister's power to exempt a particular type of fireplace. The criterion should not be whether a particular fireplace could be used without producing undue smoke; they should only concern themselves with whether or not any smoke was produced; not with whether the emission of undue smoke could or could not be avoided."
  He goes on to make a fairly small but important point in relation to Clause 11, which refers to the adaptation necessary in a dwelling-house, and he says:
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  "…surely it was essential that gas ignition is provided for on domestic fires, and this being the case, subsection (d) should specifically mention this point."
  We shall bring that matter up during the Committee stage. It will be difficult to sell this to the housewife unless gas ignition is provided. Mr. Batey makes the point that the fitting of gas ignition points would be a very expensive alteration in the average house.
  That is what was said by the Superintendent Smoke Inspector of Sheffield. The Royal Society for the Promotion of Health also had a conference on this subject, at which Sir Hugh Beaver and Dr. Scott, the Chief Medical Officer of the London County Council, spoke. For many years Dr. Scott was Medical Officer of Fulham, and I happen to know him extremely well. I have always been impressed by his academic knowledge, his well-informed mind, and his common sense. I secured a copy of the speech which he made following Sir Hugh Beaver at that conference. He was concerned about the opportunities which the Bill afforded to guilty men—"guilty men" being my own term—to escape their obligations. He said:
  "There are various savers and exemptions under Clauses 1 and 2 which make it clear, among other things, that in the Government's view it will take at least seven years before any necessary re-equipment of industry will be complete."
  People like Dr. Scott are not critical unless they feel very strongly about a certain matter.
  Last Saturday I went to my constituency. I had not mentioned the Bill until Saturday afternoon, but the "Warrington Guardian" was sent to me during the week and in it I found headlines which surprised me, because I did not realise that the people there were so well-informed upon the Bill. The headline read:
  "Alarming Escape Clauses In Clean Air Bill."
  I mention this merely to prove to hon. and right hon. Members opposite that the people are intensely interested in this matter—at least those living in those areas whose air is polluted. Two letters were quoted in the newspaper, written by people entirely unknown to me. One was from a Mr. Sydney Duguid, who, before the war, had served as a co-opted member

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  of the North-Western Regional Smoke Abatement Committee. He wrote:
  "As a life-long worker for fuel efficiency and smoke abatement may I add that the present 'Clean Air' Bill, as far as it refers to industry, fills me with alarm. If it were passed as at present written, the taking of a smoke observation by a sanitary inspector and subsequent action in a law court would become a major operation for any local authority, and with only a very remote chance of securing a conviction. The Bill details as 'defences' the hackneyed excuses, made down the ages, by those who have poured filth into our atmosphere. If these objectionable escape clauses are not removed we shall be in a far worse position to deal with industrial smoke than we are at present under the Public Health Act, 1936."
  Although I have been critical, I hope that the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will not think that I am critical of the principle of the Bill. I am merely anxious to strengthen the Bill and make it effective. I want to see these people compelled to take some action. The Government are being too lenient with the industrialists. If they really felt strongly about the matter; if they felt passionately anxious to clean the air, they would not have produced this kind of Bill. I hope that between now and the Committee stage they will take these criticisms seriously. They are the criticisms not only of hon. Members behind me, but of some of the most responsible men in the country—men who are recognised authorities in this matter.
  4.57 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: It is a source of no little gratification to a private Member that Her Majesty's Government should honour an undertaking and a pledge given personally to him upon the occasion of his Private Members' Measure. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the alacrity he has displayed so early in this Parliamentary Session in honouring the undertaking he gave on 4th February this year, to the general effect that Her Majesty's then Government would introduce a comprehensive clean air Measure to replace a Private Member's Measure which, in fairness to right hon. and hon. Members opposite, I should say was signed by six Members of the Opposition and supported by five Conservative Members—the Bill being presented by myself.
  There I have to halt in my commendation of the Minister's activities. He has
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  introduced a Clean Air Bill, but if I were asked to say what I think of it in a few words, I should say that it is a partial clean air Measure. In this complex and vitally important matter, it is necessary at the outset to have in the Bill an unequivocal declaration that it is national policy to secure clean air. Sir Hugh Beaver thought the same. In Cmd. 9322 he wrote:
  "It is basic to all our recommendations that at the outset it should be made the declared national policy to secure clean air, and that a statement to this effect should find expression in the new legislation…"
  Therefore, on the Committee stage I shall ask the Committee to amend the Bill to include a new Clause 1, the short title of which shall be
  "Duty of Minister in relation to clean air,"
  and the text of which shall be as follows:
  "It shall be the duty of the Minister of Housing and Local Government to promote a policy of clean air and to secure by all means the execution by local authorities of such a national policy."
  These words are not new. In Section 1 of the Water Act, 1945, is a similar text. I have lifted the text straight from that Act. It will be a simple declaration to display the determination of Parliament. That is essential at the outset.
  There are many serious short-comings to the Bill. It is ill-drafted. It is much too leisurely, it has wide escape routes and—I speak as a Tory, as an employer and as a member of the Federation of British Industries—the hand of the Federation of British Industries is writ large between the lines. I ought to know. I presented a much tougher Bill to this House last February and members of the Federation of British Industries tried to dissuade me.
  The economic consequences of smoke are very great and of such urgent importance today, mostly on account of our national fuel and power position. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power was responsible yesterday for launching a national campaign for greater industrial fuel efficiency. The Prime Minister, addressing the National Union of Manufacturers at lunch time today, put this at the head of all the matters to which he alluded in his speech.
  On whichever side of this House we may sit, and without commenting upon matters affecting nationalisation, we know that the coal position is most critical. In

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  the last three years, coal production has been almost stationary. This year, 1955, as the result of the unfortunate strike in South Yorkshire, and through many other causes, coal production is no less than 3½ million tons lower than last year and the two preceding years. The tendency seems to be for coal production to continue to fall. I doubt whether there would have been an autumn Budget had it not been for the very heavy burden of having to spend £80 million on coal imports this year, largely from North America and paid for in dollars, supplemented by additional expenditure on foreign exchange to bring in more and more fuel oil as a substitute for coal. The burden of these imports was largely responsible for the necessity for an autumn Budget.
  In the past, I have been critical of Her Majesty's Government in fuel efficiency matters. Today I compliment my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power on his new fuel efficiency campaign, for it is indeed propitious. The Measure before the House, although of great consequence on health and social grounds, is fundamentally of importance to all of us, because it is the only practicable means of legislating for fuel efficiency. By legislation we can only attack the visual evidence, namely smoke, of the inefficient burning of coal, which continues to be our primary source of fuel and power.
  I have used the term before, and it would not be out of place to use it again this afternoon. The concomitant of the faulty combustion of raw bituminous coal is dark and black smoke. It is against the dark and black smoke from industrial chimneys that the spearhead of the Bill should be directed. There may be misapprehension in this matter, so let me add that domestic smoke, though injurious because it is discharged at a low level, is rarely or never dark and black. Dark and black smoke contains millions of particles of half-burned bituminous coal and is the result of faulty combustion in industrial boilerhouses.
  There is a prodigious waste of coal in industry today, as the Minister of Fuel and Power made clear when he launched his campaign 48 hours ago. There is a vast difference between the coal-burning-efficiency standards of the best and of the worst within a single industry. I will not fall into the error of generalising by saying that all industry is guilty of wasting
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  coal in its factories and boilerhouses, for that is manifestly not so, but I would quote again to the House some of the information derived from the chief scientist of the Ministry of Fuel and Power. For instance, a survey of brick-making in continuous kilns showed that, for a comparable output of bricks, the most efficient coal-burning brickworks used one-ninth of the coal used in the most inefficient brickworks, a ratio of 1 to 9. It is that kind of thing which is largely responsible for the emission of dark and black smoke into the atmosphere. All this is covered by the first two Clauses of the Bill, although somewhat inadequately.
  I turn to the comments made by the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) about the suitability of fuel burnt in industrial boiler-houses. The lowest grade of coal, even slurry, may be burned in industrial boiler-houses practically smokelessly, and with only a light haze of smoke emitted but no dark or black smoke, provided that a series of conditions is complied with. There must be, of course, a chain-grate mechanical stoker of suitable design and replacement of the tens of thousands of boilers that are still hand fired in outdated and obsolescent boilerhouses all over the country. A mechanical stoker is essential. There must be a correct primary and secondary draught to the boiler, and there must be correct lagging of the steam pipes and smoke alarms and recorders. There must be a fully qualified boilerman in charge of the boiler. If these conditions are complied with, then the very lowest grades of coal may be burnt in any industrial boilerhouse almost smokelessly.
  Mr. Hobson: The hon. Gentleman is making the position a little too facile. If there is no smoke, given the conditions which he has stated, there will still be a very high sulphur content. It is a question of dealing with the sulphur.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will allow me to proceed. A whole section of my speech deals with sulphur. At the present, I am talking about dark and black smoke, which is a separate, although an associated, problem.
  The effect of inefficient burning of fuel in industry and of the urgent need for fuel economy have been expressed by

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  many authoritative persons. Let me quote from the most recent declaration made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power when launching his campaign. He said that if proper regard were had to these matters this winter—that is the coal winter which started on 1st November, last Tuesday —we could save 2 million tons of industrial coal. Sir Leslie Hollinghurst, Chairman of the National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service, has put the figure of saving at 9 million tons per year, based on proper boilerhouse practice alone. Sir Hugh Beaver, speaking at the Scarborough Conference of the Sanitary Inspectors' Association, put the coal-saving possible from industrial usage as high as 20 million tons per annum. Sir Frederick Simon, Professor of Thermo-Dynamics at the University of Oxford, has put the saving even higher, and he is supported by Sir Oliver Lyle. The two questions are linked. I repeat that the only way of attacking the wasteful use of coal in industry is through the visual evidence of dark and black smoke, and that is why, in my view, the first two Clauses of this Bill are of the greatest importance.
  There are very real dangers and pitfalls in endeavouring to make progress towards too many objectives at one and the same time. I have arranged my priorities, in this very complex matter of the abatement of atmospheric pollution, under four distinct headings, and I quote them in order, in my opinion, of their relative importance.
  The first is the attack on dark and black industrial smoke and encouraging greater industrial fuel efficiency. That is the first recourse for the reasons which I have given this evening. The second, which is more widespread, much more diverse and much more delicate politically, if I may say so to my right hon. Friend, is the domestic fire, which is covered in Clause 8 of the Bill, dealing with smoke control areas. As the smoke control areas are created, so the domestic fires in those areas must be operated smokelessly, and that brings in the difficult matter of adequate supplies of smokeless fuel, which must be increased at a rate commensurate with extension of smoke control areas.
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  The third of these considerations, in order of priority, is one which the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. R. E. Winterbottom), in view of his own constituency, would probably place first, namely, the special processes referred to by Sir Hugh Beaver in his Report relating to metallurgical works, carbonisation works, power stations and chemical works, which, in the past, have been within the ambit of responsibility of the Alkali Inspectorate.
  The fourth, and the most intractable—the one which the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) referred to in his intervention a moment ago—deals with sulphur oxides, notably S.O.2, and I feel bound to quote exactly what Sir Hugh Beaver said in his Report. We should be making a great mistake in this House if we encouraged the general public to believe that it is possible to burn solid fuel in this country without emitting sulphur oxides. We would equally be making a very great mistake if we encouraged public opinion to believe there is some easy means of preventing the emission of sulphur or even the recovery of sulphur from the oxides contained in the flue gases.
  Sir Hugh Beaver, who was supported in his opinion by some of the most foremost experts in the country on the problems with which we are concerned this afternoon said:
  "No known methods exist whereby the greater part of the sulphur from industrial and domestic chimneys can be prevented from being poured into the atmosphere in the form of corrosive gases. The increasing use of town gas, a fuel virtually sulphur free, will assist in reducing sulphur pollution, and the use of electricity will have the same effect when the sulphur problem at power stations has been solved. There will still remain many uses of fuel, such as steam-raising, for which the most expensive refined sources of energy will be too costly. There is thus no present prospect of substantially reducing the emission of sulphur oxide from general industry or domestic fires. This is an important issue which requires further attention and it is one of the matters which we recommend for intensive research."
  The point about intensive research was made by the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington, and I can say from my own knowledge that the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and practically every other agency of that character, whether of a governmental character or connected with private industry or otherwise, is pursuing this problem; but, so far, no ready answer has

  1249
  been found, other than the vastly expensive plants for washing flue gases at power stations. Sir Hugh Beaver in his Report referred to the Fulham station, which had such an apparatus before the war, and the use of which was discontinued during the war. It is now being put back into use.
  I warn the House that power stations are the biggest single coal consumers in the country. It is often the case that one power station uses as much as 1 million tons of coal in a year. An undertaking of that kind can possibly afford—I am not saying that it can—vastly expensive plant to extract the sulphur from the flue gases, but quite certainly hundreds and thousands of other agencies, which are allowing sulphur to pass into the atmosphere, cannot take similar steps, particularly the ordinary domestic hearth, which is the simplest form of solid fuel combustion in general use. Therefore, I think that it would be a mistake if we devoted too much of our time today to talking about sulphur emissions. It is so largely a matter of scientific development.
  May I pass to my principal criticism of the Bill. I have explained, as I see it, the urgency of fuel efficiency in industry and the paramount importance of Clauses 1 and 2. The seven-year dispensation, in extremis—I emphasise in extremis—in Clause 2 is far too long. I do not wish to make invidious comparisons with my right hon. Friend, but I pondered this point before my Private Member's Measure last Session. It is no use legislating for the elimination of dark smoke unless we can, by the use of mechanical stokers, thermostats and all the rest of the boilerhouse equipment required, meet the sudden demand that this legislation would inspire.
  I came to the conclusion that the proper period was three years. I shall move, during the Committee stage of this Bill, when we are dealing with Clause 2, to delete seven years and to substitute three years. It is a matter of great urgency, and I hope that I shall carry with me right hon. and hon. Members on both sides. Why I say that the F.B.I. hand is writ large between the lines of this Bill is because it was members of the F.B.I., representing industrialists, who have been responsible for persuading the Minister to put three years up to seven. They say outside this House that Nabarro
  1250
  is a dizzy idealist. The interesting thing is that I have fired more boilers than most hon. Members in this House; I have operated more boilers than most hon. Members, and I have been responsible for more boilers than most hon. Members. I know how to fire a boiler.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: We have had experts quoted. Will the hon. Gentleman now quote another expert?—what the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) said about the waste of coal at Bournemouth?
  Mr. Nabarro: Yes, Sir. I was accused on the last occasion of being unduly egotistical in this matter. I would, therefore prefer the hon. Gentleman, or one of his hon. Friends, to quote what I said at Bournemouth, and I am perfectly happy that they should do so. I shall seek to reduce the seven years in Clause 2 to three years.
  My second point is with regard to unsuitable fuel. I shall seek the total elimination of Clause 1 (3, c). That is the subsection which allows a defence on grounds of unsuitable fuel. There is no unsuitable industrial fuel, provided the boiler house is properly equipped and the boiler man fully trained, and it is for that reason that I say that the subsection should be eliminated. That criticism refers to Clause 1 (3, c) at the head of the page.
  My third criticism is in regard to the duties of the Alkali Inspectorate. I support the general view that that Inspectorate should continue to be responsible for the special processes, involving metallurgical works, carbonisation works, power stations and so on, which are referred to in the appropriate section of the Report, except those in the areas of the large local authorities, provided that those authorities can demonstrate to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government that they have the necessary technical staff and facilities available to supervise such processes.
  The large local authorities to which I am referring are only few in number—say the City of Birmingham, the City of Newcastle, the City of Liverpool, the City of Sheffield, the City of Stoke-on-Trent and the City of Bristol. There may be others, but I quote those six.
  Mr. L. M. Lever: What about Manchester?
  Mr. Nabarro: Manchester should come high on the list in view of its great success with smokeless zones. I am not quoting them in order of importance, but I say that so long as they may demonstrate to the Minister's satisfaction that they have the technical staff and facilities available to deal with the complexities of the special processes, the large local authorities should be granted total autonomy.
  I remind my right hon. Friend that, by and large, the areas of the big local authorities are the black areas and I believe that the policy of clean air is indivisible. It would be a grave mistake for this House to place in the hands of a local authority the enforcement of the conditions of the Bill in regard to smoke, and to leave in the hands of the alkali inspectorate the enforcement in regard to special processes in such cases.
  Mr. Orbach: Referring to the Alkali Inspectorate, has the hon. Member looked at paragraph 6 of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, where it states that £40,000 per annum is to be put aside for the whole of the work? How many inspectors are we to include in the technical staff? Will they even cover the catalogue of towns and cities he himself has listed?
  Mr. Nabarro: I am dealing with principle. I am in sympathy with what the hon. Member says, and we can no doubt deal with it during the Committee stage.
  My fourth point is that there must be demonstrated clearly a desire for a national policy in support of clean air. Fifth, the definition of smoke is quite ridiculous. The definition in page 19 reads:
  "'smoke' includes soot, ash, grit and gritty particles."
  We all know what smoke includes. What we want to know is what smoke is. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will say how difficult it is to define it. I know all that. I got seven experts together last January to draft a definition of smoke. I derived my definition from the established practice of American and Canadian cities where they have demonstrated over a long period of years that their definition can be supported in the courts.
  My sixth criticism is that Sir Hugh Beaver was emphatic in requiring that every local authority should submit to
  1252
  the Minister an annual report of the progress being made in implementation of what will be the Clean Air Act. There is no such requirement in the Bill. Seventh, there is no provision for the improved training and ultimate certification of industrial boilermen. Eighth, the tax incentives recommended by Sir Hugh Beaver in respect of industrial fuel economising plant, and the smoke prevention equipment should have been placed in the Finance Bill which has succeeded our autumnal Budget. Someone evidently forgot about it.
  My ninth point is that, for Clean Air policy to be effective and thrusting, a Clean Air Council should be provided as part of the legislative instrument, and not by administrative action. My tenth criticism is upon something which I think is of great public importance and concern. Why are we abandoning the homely phrase that has secured recognition in all parts of the country in the last few years—"smokeless zone"?
  Mr. Lever: Manchester initiated it.
  Hon. Members: Salford initiated it.
  Mr. Nabarro: Manchester blazed the trail, I agree, but I am not arguing about who started it. I am saying that the transposition of "smokeless zone" to "smoke control area"—a cumbersome and meaningless phrase—is a bad one, and that we should revert to "smokeless zone."
  Those are just ten matters which will require amendment in Committee. There are no doubt another 20 or 30, and though my right hon. Friend has rightly said from time to time that this is largely an agreed measure—in that it is not controversial in a party political sense—it is evident that if this Bill is to be truly effective, we shall have to give it a very great number of teeth that it does not at present possess. Much greater urgency must be imparted to the Bill, all escape routes must be closed, and a large number of deficiencies must be remedied.
  Although I have been somewhat critical of my right hon. Friend this afternoon, I should not like to conclude without saying to him, that I am sincerely grateful for the speed with which he has brought in this Measure, and the honourable fashion in which he has sought to implement—badly advised, no doubt, in many important regards — the undertaking which he gave to me last February.
  5.28 p.m.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: I must first, though somewhat belatedly, thank the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) for the excellent Clean Air Bill which he introduced last February, and say that we have all been delighted with his speech this afternoon. I have particularly noted his ten points of emendation, and in the case of nine of them I am in complete agreement. I am prepared to argue his tax reliefs point, and I want to make a small correction in regard to one other. The Alkali Inspectorate is not completely in charge of all the metallurgical processes. That is one of our difficulties, because at present the duties of that inspectorate and those of the smoke abatement officers overlap. Prosecutions very often fail as a result.
  The hon. Member is well known for his youthful enthusiasm and I sympathise with him because he has exercised a restraint which, I know, must have been irksome. I promise to make up for that restraint in what I am about to say to the Minister. I do not propose to deal with problems of smokeless zones and of the domestic grate. With a name like mine I can hardly do so, but I want first to quote a statement made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government in a debate on 4th February last. He said:
  "As soon as the consultations to which I have referred are completed, the Government will frame and introduce a comprehensive Measure, including the financial provisions needed to make it effective. The Bill will follow the general lines of the recommendations of the Beaver Committee. I say 'general lines,' because I want to make it clear that that does not preclude us from considering other additional, or alternative proposals, such as have been put forward by various hon. Members during the course of this debate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th February, 1955; Vol. 536, c. 1488.]
  Those words and that speech by the Minister persuaded the hon. Member for Kidderminster to withdraw his Bill. A specific promise was given that the Government would introduce a Measure on the general lines of the Beaver Committee recommendations.
  What have we got to implement that promise? We have this Clean Air Bill. It is a miserable, hypocritical shadow of the Bill compared with that which was introduced by the hon. Member for
  1254
  Kidderminster. The Minister claims that it implements what he said he would implement. In fact, it almost completely ignores the Beaver Committee recommendations. What is more, by implication it seeks to minimise the air pollution problem that the country is facing.
  Who fathered the Bill? I should like to know. It was certainly not the Beaver Committee. I should not like to think that Sir Hugh Beaver would claim that the Bill embraces even a tenth of the Committee's recommendations. Whoever fathered it has produced a stillborn child. I agree with the quotation by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) from Mr. Batey, the Sheffield Smoke Abatement Officer. If it is a stillborn child, it is because it has been killed by timidity and denied life by Government ineptitude.
  I want to ask a very important question which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will pass on to the Minister. When will the Government realise that the problem of air pollution is not an amiable sideline to which they can just give lip-service? When will they realise that it is a matter of major social consequence to the health of the community and absolutely vital to the economy of the nation?
  I suggest that air pollution by smoke, grit, fumes and filth is now unnecessary, in spite of what the hon. Member for Kidderminster has said. It can be eliminated by the most modern forms of technology and machinery. I want to prove that. I have a report from Sheffield University which constitutes a practical and effective contribution to the solution of the problem. Sheffield itself is a very dirty city, although it has a golden gate. The fact that it is dirty is not the fault of the city fathers. Sheffield was the first city in the country to employ a smoke abatement officer. During the course of time the city fathers have done all they possibly can, within the limits of the law, to make Sheffield's air clean and pure. The law hinders them.
  At Sheffield University a great deal of research has been carried out particularly in relation to the metallurgical industries and the industries now controlled by the Alkali Acts. It is because of that that I introduce the University's Report. It is

  1255
  by Dr. Sarjant, of the University, who has come to this conclusion:
  "The smoke problem is due to two main causes: (i) the use of old-fashioned appliances and outmoded techniques, for which there may be no valid scientific reason, and (ii) the lack of application of existing knowledge, either from lack of interest or ignorance."
  It is because of these things that the Sheffield City Council has not been able to tackle the problem. I believe that if the Beaver Committee had spent more time in Sheffield than its casual morning visit to the city, had gone round the industries of Attercliffe and Brightside, and had understood the history of Sheffield as a developing industrial city, it would have published recommendations in regard to scheduled industries quite different from those in its Report.
  I will tell the House what the Committee would have found. It would have found that industrialists do not generally replace machinery because doing so would be in the interests of the health of the community. Industrialists do not willingly and voluntarily judge replacement from the point of view of public health and well-being. The Committee would have found that the scheduled industries are now protected by law and take advantage of that, till all the efforts of the medical officer of health, the smoke abatement officer and Sheffield's excellent health committee are rendered completely abortive.
  I know that not all industrialists are reticent about changing machinery. Many in Sheffield have done a good job in replacing obsolete machinery by machinery which does not emit nuisances. It is because it is now possible to replace obsolete plant by machinery which does not emit air pollutants that I challenge the Minister to face a very simple fact.
  British industry will never again rise to world industrial supremacy unless it is in advance of the rest of the world in mechanisation. It is not without significance that modern machines do not emit filth into the atmosphere. "Public health" is synonymous with "modern mechanisation." The Bill completely ignores the wise pressure which, with an effective Measure, could be brought to bear upon British industrialists to make them install machinery capable of competing in world markets. I know that this is a great problem and that it cannot
  1256
  be done instantaneously. Nevertheless, we are told that the Government stand for economy. I wonder what kind of economy the Government stand for. Is it parsimonious economy or wise spending?
  We cannot afford to waste the amount of motive power which goes into the atmosphere and which, according to the Beaver Committee, costs no less than £250 million a year. That does not include waste from the incomplete combustion of coal in domestic hearths. I am with the hon. Member for Kidderminster in his continual pressure on the Government for fuel conservation. Unless the Government promote a really efficient policy, which should be pursued side by side with an effective clean air policy, they will go down in history as the Government who stifled the industrial life of Britain.
  I turn again to the Beaver Committee's recommendations. The Committee said:
  "Enough has been said to prove that air pollution as it occurs in this country today is a social evil of the first magnitude. It not only does untold harm to human health and happiness; it is a prodigal waste of material resources. Expenditure on curing it would be a fraction of the savings which would result from the cure."
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster reminded us of power stations. When we are trying to cure this country of the impure air we all breath, especially in the industrial areas, we not only have to think of new power stations being built and new gas plant being installed, but of the people who, for many years, have lived under the shadow of power stations and gas works. We ought to have some regard for them and bring relief to them. The Government have failed in this Bill to respond to that challenge. I say categorically that they are guilty of a grave misuse of their power and, therefore, are guilty of treachery to the industrial life of Britain.
  I want to criticise the Bill itself. A great many things have been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington and the hon. Member for Kidderminster. The Bill contains familiar words and familiar exemptions such as "classes of cases" and "limitations as may be specified." It provides defence in the case of lighting-up, in the case of failure of apparatus and in the case of unsuitable fuel. All those things are known to sanitary inspectors, medical officers of health and smoke abatement officers. In Sheffield, it is almost

  1257
  impossible to get a successful prosecution against a big industry by reason of these defences, but it is possible to get a successful prosecution against a minor offender. The difficulties of local authorities to sustain prosecutions is one of the considerations which has not been taken into account by the Government.
  Unless drastically amended, subsection (3) of Clause 1 will become a charter for the emission of dark smoke. That is the danger of the Bill; there are so many defences, so many limitations and there is no clarity in what we call the scheduled industries scheduled processes, or on the application of the Alkali Acts to many of industries of Sheffield and district. Nearly all the industrialists, if they have the will, can use the Clean Air Bill to perpetuate nuisances from which we suffer.
  Mr. Hobson: Except the householder.
  Mr. Winterbottom: Except the householder, and even in that case it is only effective in smokeless zones to be set up under the Bill. After all is done and said, if a prosecution is lodged against a firm for the emission of dark smoke and the excuse is made that unsuitable fuel had to be used that excuse must be accepted in the court of law because the fuel by then has gone up in smoke and there is no remaining evidence. Time after time proscutions have failed because of defences such as those provided in this Bill. I believe that the Bill will give licence to many industrialists and all it will do in the interests of clean air will be to retain the status quo.
  I wish to deal with the problem of Sheffield itself. The district I have the honour to represent in this House has one of the highest deposits of soot in the country. In 1954, the average deposit formed was 40·28 tons per square mile per month. That included periods when factories were closed. The highest recorded deposit was 69·28 tons in Attercliffe and Brightside. I ask the Minister what he intends to do to bring relief to people who live in an atmosphere of that kind. I want to know what he intends to do in regard to the metallurgical processes and the application of the Alkali Acts. If his reply is according to this Bill, even though we amend the Bill on the lines suggested by the hon. Member for Kidderminster and if every one of those Amendments is accepted by the Minister, the difference
  1258
  in Attercliffe and Brightside will be less than half of 1 per cent. in terms of mitigation of the nuisances from which they suffer today.
  Through the Parliamentary Secretary, I say to the Minister, withdraw this puny, miserable Bill. It is not worthy of any British Government. It is not worthy of the people who have to do the dirty jobs of the country, for it will bring no relief whatever to them when finally it is applied to the industries which create nuisances.
  I say a final word in respect of the Alkali Acts. As I said in a question to the Parliamentary Secretary, there are nine alkali inspectors. Provision has been made for an extra expenditure of £40,000. How does the Minister hope that such an insufficient staff will be able to conduct the necessary inquiries in order that in any process clean air provisions will be applied to those industries under the Alkali Acts? It is physically impossible. We would need an alkali inspector in every big town. That is unnecessary. Why should we duplicate the services? The services could be carried out by smoke abatement officers, if they were given powers by means of an effective Clean Air Bill.
  At the moment, there is difference between the smoke abatement officers and alkali inspectors as to the range of their duties. Why not canalise the whole of those duties under the smoke abatement officers of the towns? If a town cannot afford the services of a smoke abatement officer, the present law permits the use of these officers on a wider basis than that of the area of a borough council. The retention of this power under the Alkali Inspectorate is wrong and I think that the Beaver Committee was wrong in making such a suggestion and in trying to widen the scope of the scheduled processes. I believe that a more effective method is to remove the idea of remote control and to give to the man who knows the local circumstances and pitfalls the right to deal with the problem on the spot.
  I hope that even if he does not withdraw the Bill, the Minister will have second thoughts about the Alkali Inspectorate. I speak from the knowledge that the Association of Municipal Corporations has unanimously pronounced in favour of the proposals I am advocating.

  1259
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster said that the Bill emanated really from the offices of the Federation of British Industries. Will the Minister tell us what took place when the Association of Municipal Corporations sent its representative to discuss the Bill with him? The Parliamentary Secretary said today that the Bill had the blessing of the Association, but that is not the view expressed in the Association's official publication, which says that it is at variance with the Minister on almost every important Clause in the Bill.
  This is not a Clean Air Bill. It has been conceived in the befogged imagination of the Government and the best thing that they can do is to withdraw it as quickly as possible and to bring forward a really effective Measure to the House as early as they can.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Kirk: Like both the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. R. E. Winterbottom) and the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill), I represent a constituency in the middle of some of the worst polluted air in the country at the mouth of the Thames Estuary. In addition to the normal pollution of smoke and fumes, we have the particular problem of cement dust, which gets into everything in the homes of my constituents and of people in adjoining constituencies. So bad had it become, in fact, that recently the local authorities for that part of North Kent felt that they should come together in an advisory committee to discuss atmospheric pollution in general and, in particular, pollution by cement dust.
  I think that within the last day or two all hon. Members have received a circular from that committee issued from the Town Hall of the Borough of Dartford. The circular states that the committee has met the local Members of Parliament for the North Kent area, which is perfectly true, but the circular contains the implication, which I should like to remove from the minds of hon. Members who may have read it, that the six Members of Parliament for the area have collectively agreed to support the list of proposed amendments which the circular contains.
  I am quite certain that that was not what the advisory committee intended to
  1260
  say, but I am authorised to make this statement, not only for myself but for my two hon. Friends who were with me on that occasion. I believe that I speak also for the three hon. Members from the other side of the House who were present when I say that, whatever may be our views individually, collectively we have not pledged our support for the list of amendments.
  Mr. A. G. Bottomley: As one of the Members concerned who was present at the meeting. I confirm what the hon. Member has said. I am sure he would agree that great enterprise and initiative was shown by the local authorities concerned and that they deserve congratulation for it.
  Mr. Kirk: Yes, but there was that misunderstanding in the circular which I wanted to clear up. I did not want anyone to think that we were committed to that list. I am sympathetic to some of the suggested amendments, but not to all of them, and some of them I hope to discuss in my remarks.
  As far as I can see, cement dust, in particular, does not figure in the Bill. Of course, there is a very rational reason which the Minister would give to me if I were to put the point to him. He would say that all the powers necessary for dealing with cement dust already exist in the Alkali Act, 1906. To some extent that is true, but it is also fair to say that those powers, certainly in North Kent, do not seem to have been widely effective. Although an immense amount of money has been spent by local cement firms during the last few years in fitting precipitators and so on, the pollution by cement dust in the area is still appalling. It is sad and regrettable that no attempt is made in the Bill to collate the existing legislation relating to cement dust and to make an attempt to clean it up.
  I strongly agree with what the hon. Member for Brightside said about the Alkali Inspectorate. We rely on that Inspectorate at least to keep this nuisance down. It would be fatal if, as a result of the extension of the Inspectorate's powers by the Bill, it could not devote so much time to the problems with which it is already concerned. What is much more important is to have more alkali inspectors who would be capable of keeping a much closer watch, particularly on this one aspect of cement dust.

  1261
  Neither am I convinced that the penalties provided in the Bill are large enough. Again quoting the local instance of cement dust, it is probably far cheaper, although I do not say that any firm would adopt this line, for a company to pay a fine of £100 than to fit the necessary equipment to deal with the pollution. This also is a point which will have to be considered in Committee.
  We in our area know of the interest which the Ministry takes in our problem. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary very kindly gave up some of his time to come and look at the problems in that part of the world. If the Bill is effectively operated—and that is essential—it will help to a certain extent in our problem, for I believe that a lot of the cement dust would normally be blown away and widely scattered without doing damage locally were it not for the other noxious gases in the atmosphere which tend to drag the cement dust down. If it is possible to clear away a lot of the noxious gases, and particularly the sulphur pollution, although I know this is a tricky matter, that will help in clearing some of the cement dust pollution.
  There is another and more general point that arises from my particular problem. Of the cement dust which is produced in the constituency of Gravesend, a very great deal is exported. With a good wind, we reckon that most of it will descend on the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), the Government deputy Chief Whip. That annoys his constituents and, no doubt, makes him a little bit peeved also, and at this stage I have no wish to annoy the deputy Chief Whip. One must, therefore, stress the necessity for co-operation between local authorities if the Bill is to be a success.
  I can conceive of an area being strongly polluted from a factory in another area although the local authority affected is not anxious to take action against the factory. The Bill should embody provision for appeal to the Minister in the case of a local authority which is unable to persuade a neighbouring authority to take action. Also, on the lines of the advisory committee to which I referred earlier, it might be not only possible, but advisable, to have area pollution committees, as well as the Clean Air Council envisaged by the Bill, which could meet from time to
  1262
  time to discuss the various problems on a local authority basis.
  I doubt whether we shall ever achieve 100 per cent. efficiency, and I am certain we shall not do it with the cement industry, but if people could be convinced that every practical effort is made to lessen the appalling pollution which now takes place, at least they will be prepared to accept the situation. There is no point in concealing the fact that great resentment is felt against the cement companies in my part of the country, who have done all that they can do to keep down the pollution. There is great resentment because people do not think that everything possible is being done. I fully agree with those who have said that the Bill needs tidying up, but if we can put through a Bill which will make smoke and pollution abatement really effective, we shall lessen a good deal of the ill feeling against big firms in heavily polluted areas.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Irving: I would first apologise to the House for taking up its time by further considering the matter already raised by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Kirk), but it is a measure of the intensity of the public feeling on the matter that I do so. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the public conscience. The public conscience in north-west Kent has been so stirred that there is such an intensity of feeling as I have never previously known in the years I have lived there.
  Hon. Members on this side of the House occasionally take pleasure in pointing out that we in Britain have some things that are bigger and better than the Americans have. In north-west Kent we have the biggest concentration of cement plants in the world, but it gives me no pleasure to say that because they are a source of pollution so great that it has to be seen to be believed. Some notion of how great it is may be gained when I say that 4½ million tons of cement are produced in that area and in one place alone in one month 105 tons of dust fell in one square mile. Perhaps from these figures hon. Members can appreciate the degree of the nuisance. That was equivalent to the whole of the dust that falls in Westminster and all Central London.
  Therefore, we suffer in north-west Kent to a degree which is unequalled anywhere

  1263
  in the country. This is an all-party matter, and I associate myself with what the hon. Member for Gravesend said, that in attending the meeting of the Thames-side Advisory Committee we did not, any of us, commit ourselves entirely to the recommendations that were made.
  This dust is scattered widely. It pollutes the air. It affects health. It obscures the sunlight. It fouls the plants. It makes more difficult the saleability of plants in the area, part of which is rural. It falls on clothes and on the windows of houses and cars.
  It is a grave nuisance to the whole population, and that nuisance has led to petitions and to a visit by the Parliamentary Secretary, for which we are grateful. It has led to the setting up of the Thames-side Advisory Committee, now a joint committee. I had the privilege of being chairman of the inaugural meeting of the Committee, although I am not now directly associated with it. That Committee has very carefully collected statistics, and I believe that it is the start of a further move in the right direction of the abatement of this nuisance and in the promotion of measures to deal with it.
  I want to place on record now the deep anxiety of the whole of my constituents. We have been told at great length about the ineffectiveness of this Bill. There is great anxiety amongst my constituents as to there being no hope whatsoever of any elimination or control of this nuisance in their area.
  I want to urge on the Government what has already been urged upon them by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), that local authorities should, under the Bill, be given the power to deal not only with smoke but also with those things which are at present reserved to the Alkali Inspectorate. I have no quarrel with the Inspectorate. The inspectors, some of whom I have met, are men of great ability, great experience; men who are conscientious to the greatest degree. However, I think it is obvious to anybody who has read either of the two Reports produced by the Inspectorate in recent years that the amount of work which they have to undertake as their present duty is far too great at the moment. Therefore, if their duties are enlarged, that will place a burden on the Inspectorate too great to be borne.
  1264
  The right answer is to give to the local authorities the same powers to deal with this nuisance as have belonged to the Inspectorate—and not only the local authorities in the big towns. They should be given also to joint committees of smaller authorities where they have personnel for them.
  This is a tremendous task. What disturbs the local authorities as much as this problem is the fact that not only are we not going to be able to deal with the dust but we are not going to be able to deal with the smoke emitted from the chimneys of the cement industry and others scheduled under the Alkali, &c. Works Regulation Act.
  This problem is an acute one. There are twenty-three precipitators in northwest Kent. Last year five were out of action at one time. There seems to be grave doubt in the minds of the local authorities whether enough is being done to control this nuisance. Many people in north-west Kent feel that if those industries had been under penalty something would have been done much more quickly. It is very likely that the five precipitators which have gone out of action would not have gone out of action all at once.
  Research is highly important. In the States there are ninety-eight laboratories and one public foundation carrying on research into this matter. I do not want to minimise the importance of the research by the cement industry, because it has done a great deal, but it would reassure the local authorities if more research were done by public bodies. One cannot deny that the feeling exists that although research is being done it is in many cases subordinated to that of research into production problems.
  We are grateful to have had the statement today about the Clean Air Council. There should be a Clean Air Council sitting continuously, and with responsibility for the direction of the research, so that we can hope that in the future there will be some alleviation of this grievous problem.
  6.7 p.m.
  Mr. S. Storey: The two hon. Members who have just spoken, my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Kirk) and the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Sydney Irving), will forgive me if I do not follow the problem

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  to which they have specially directed their speeches. I would rather join with my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) in welcoming the Bill. I cannot speak with the knowledge with which he speaks, but as the representative of the constituency in which there is Trafford Park, where we have probably one of the greatest concentrations of the most varied industries in the country, a constituency in which my constituents suffer at all times and in various degrees from the effects of contamination of the air, I do speak about this subject with a very real interest in the problems with which the Bill is concerned.
  While I welcome the Bill, I agree with what has been said about the fact that it does not go far enough. And it does not go quickly enough. The Parliamentary Secretary claimed that the Government had acted quickly upon the recommendations of the Beaver Committee, but what really matters is not that we legislate quickly but that we should legislate in a way that will produce results quickly, and that, I think, the Bill fails to do.
  There are two compelling reasons, in my opinion, in the present state of the country's economy why we should take determined action. The first is that every ounce of coal saved by efficient combustion means gold and dollars saved, and the second is that in a state of full employment every hour saved from ill health means extra production. Those reasons alone seem to me fully to justify intense action and adequate expenditure and research. Yet throughout the Bill there seems to be a tendency to provide loopholes which will delay achievement of the Bill's aims.
  Reference has already been made to Clause 1, which allows as a defence against emitting black smoke the fact that suitable fuel is not obtainable. Clause 1 (3, c) is about as effective an escape clause as could be provided. When it is not an exaggeration to say that, with suitable methods of stoking and draught control and with proper control instruments, even unsuitable fuel can be burned without producing black smoke, surely the need to save coal, gold and dollars, and to promote health and increase production, justifies the closing of this loophole which the Clause provides.
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  I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster has announced his intention to move to delete the subsection. I hope that he will be successful in doing so. I believe that somewhat similar arguments could be brought against the provisions of the Bill dealing with grit and dust, but I do not intend to take up the time of the House in deploying those arguments now. I want to turn to the effect of the Bill upon the Alkali Inspectorate.
  Clause 13 will increase the work laid upon the alkali inspectors. I know that some local authorities feel that the work of the inspectors should be transferred to them, or at least that the duties relating to smoke from special processes should remain with them. On the whole, I think that the balance of argument supports the proposal in the Bill, and I could not go as far as my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster in suggesting that, in the case of the larger authorities, the work should be transferred to the authorities.
  It was suggested from the benches opposite that Manchester was a good example of a local authority to which the powers of the inspectors could be transferred. As a representative of a constituency outside Manchester, I feel that the problem of the Manchester area can be better tackled by the present alkali inspectors than by each local authority having its own inspectors. But is the Minister satisfied that his present inspectors can cope with the additional duties? If not, does he feel certain that he can secure the additional inspectors with the necessary qualifications? We must satisfy ourselves that if we are going to place extra work on the inspectors they can undertake that work and that, if they cannot, we are sure that we can secure new men with the right qualifications.
  I recall that when, two years ago, we persuaded the then Minister to appoint an additional inspector for the Manchester district he had the greatest difficulty in obtaining the services of a suitable man. He finally solved the problem by continuing in service an inspector who was due to retire. Therefore, we should be satisfied that any necessary additions to the staff can be made before we lay fresh duties upon the Alkali Inspectorate.
  I welcome what my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry

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  of Housing and Local Government said about setting up a Clean Air Council, but, like my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster, I would much prefer to see that provided for in the Bill. A council of that kind could do useful work to inculcate the idea of clean air as a worthwhile national policy. It could also do good work in co-ordinating research. One of our great problems, and one to which we are fully alive in my constituency, is the problem caused by sulphur. It is a problem which, above all, calls for intensive research.
  Clause 19 empowers a local authority to undertake research. That is all to the good, but is the Minister satisfied that sufficient research on a national scale is being undertaken and that sufficient encouragement is given to industry to undertake research into its own problems? I believe that a Clean Air Council, given the right powers, could be a useful body to encourage and co-ordinate research and make available to other industries and local authorities the results of individual efforts.
  Our need, in our present economic circumstances, to use our coal efficiently and to promote good health so that we may increase production is such that the extra cost and effort involved in tightening up the Bill would be well worthwhile and would pay a full dividend. I wish the Bill well, but I hope that between now and the Committee stage the Minister will re-examine it with that same realism as that with which he examined the housing subsidies. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members want realism. They have been asking for realism in this matter, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will examine the Bill with that same realistic outlook and will decide to tighten up its provisions between now and the Committee stage.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. Somerville Hastings: Like all hon. and right hon. Members who have spoken so far, with the partial exception of the Minister, I want to pour my contribution of dark smoke on the Bill. I want to deal with it from the only aspect from which I am capable of doing so, and that is from the health point of view. Whether it is a good or bad Bill must depend on what exactly we mean by "clean" as applied to air. If we
  1268
  mean by "clean" freedom from smoke and grit, then in time I think the Bill will have the effect of producing a cleaner atmosphere. And, from the health point of view, one ought to admit that it may reduce to some extent the incidence of cancer of the lung, because that dread disease—although its cause may be associated with smoking—appears to be more common in smoky and industrial districts. On the other hand, if we mean by "clean air" air free from impurities and substances inimical to health and well-being, I suggest that this is a very poor Bill indeed.
  It is unfortunate that, while smoke can be easily seen and recognised, the much more important oxides of sulphur are quite invisible to the eye. In a dry atmosphere they do not hurt us very much. They cause irritation of the eyes, but they do not have a very great effect. In a moist atmosphere, however, in the presence of dust or smoke—and there is dust everywhere in our atmosphere—the sulphur dioxide combines with water to produce sulphuric acid.
  This point was put in a leading article in the "Lancet" of 7th November, 1953, in a much better way than I can put it, and therefore I hope that I may be forgiven for quoting it. It says:
  "Sulphur dioxide dispersed as one part per million throughout a gaseous phase might be relatively safe, but dissolved in droplets giving a local concentration thousands of times greater it will produce a strongly acid respiratory rain, which may readily produce bronchial spasm and oedema."
  I believe that that is what happened in the great smog epidemic.
  As has been said several times today, the parent of this Bill is the Beaver Report. That Report was inspired by the invasion of the Metropolis by smog in December, 1952, which killed off 4,000 people and caused bad health to many thousands more. Does any one doubt that the main cause of this was sulphur oxide? Dr. Smithard, Medical Officer of Health for Lewisham, investigated the matter. He found that the highest mortality was in proximity to the source of excessive smoke, and he added that it is not the smoke but the irritant action of oxides of sulphur which is most likely to be the cause.
  It is not only in times of smog, however, that the action of the oxides of

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  sulphur is so serious. They affect the health of people in industrial towns throughout their lives, and nearly every day of the year, at any rate whenever the atmosphere is sufficiently moist. I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) that it is significant that Warrington has had as its last two Members of Parliament members of my profession, because Warrington had the highest death rate from bronchitis in this country for males between 45 and 64 during the years 1950 to 1952. There are runners-up for other towns, such as Salford and Oldham, come pretty near. But pride of place goes to Warrington, where the death rate from bronchitis for these ages is four or five times greater than in seaside and country districts.
  In addition, there is a great deal of lost working time from bronchitis due, in my view, mainly to sulphur fumes. In 1950 there were 16 million days lost by bronchitis, which accounted for 10 per cent. of all time lost by illness. It may be asked, what evidence is there that this was caused by sulphur dioxide? Sheffield was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Brightside (Mr. R. E. Winter-bottom), who pointed out the research work being done there. I want to refer to another useful piece of research work done by Sheffield doctors. Dr. Pemberton and Dr. Goldberg worked out the amount of bronchitis in county boroughs of England and Wales, and they found a significant correlation between the sulphur dioxide in the air and the severity of the bronchitis in these towns.
  There is, of course, nothing new in this. Sir Hugh Beaver mentions it in his Report. I will read briefly what he says about sulphur dioxide:
  "One of the most deleterious products of the combustion of fuels is sulphur, present in the form of its oxides, mainly sulphur dioxide. Sulphur dioxide is discharged into the atmosphere with the chimney gases wherever fuel in the form of coal, coke, fuel oil or unpurified gases is burnt. The degree of efficiency of combustion does not affect the quantity of sulphur dioxide evolved."
  Yet the word "sulphur" is not mentioned in this Bill. It does not even propose a clean air council or, as I would prefer to call it, a pure air council. The Minister told us that such a council would be formed. I, for one, would much prefer a statutory council which had considerable power for initiating research.
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  I know that in Clause 19 the local authorities are allowed to spend money on research but this is a national problem and a very difficult one and, if I may say so, a very costly one. If we are to make our towns and cities healthy again we must clear the sulphur from the air. How can it be done? Well, as has been suggested, something can be done by scrubbing the air from the chimneys of our factories and power stations. Something can be done to remove the sulphur from coal. A great deal can be done to remove the sulphur from fuel oil but, unfortunately, at present it is an expensive process. What is needed is a committee which will keep this matter in mind at all times and which will have power to institute research even if it costs money.
  In the Press a short time ago Sir John Cockcroft was reported as saying that in twenty years' time, in 1975, nearly half Britain's electricity would be generated by atomic power, saving 40 million tons of coal a year and consequent pollution of our air by sulphur oxides. I suggest that such a development would result in greater improvement in health than a dozen Bills like the one we are considering today.
  6.28 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Johnson: I know that the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings) will forgive me if I do not follow the points which he has made. It would be wrong of me to attempt to do so in view of his great medical knowledge of the subject which he has so ably put before the House.
  This is one of those pleasant occasions when we are discussing a Bill on whose general purpose we are entirely agreed. The varying expressions of opinion which my right hon. Friend will have heard, some possibly put more forcibly than others, are so merely because we have different views on how to make as good a Bill as possible out of the Measure before us. I want to pay a tribute, as other hon. Members have done, to my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) for his initiative in this matter. I was particularly glad to note what he said about the importance of the Bill as regards fuel efficiency. That is rather apt to be overlooked when we are considering the health aspect.
  The Parliamentary Secretary referred to previous local legislation and said the

  1271
  time had now come for general legislation. I entirely agree with him about that. It might save a great city like Manchester, which has done so much in local legislation, from being inundated by smoke from places like Stretford and Salford just outside its borders.
  Although we welcome the Bill, all hon. Members on both sides of the House who have the honour to represent the City of Manchester are a little unhappy about some of its aspects. One is that although the Bill provides for smoke-control areas, it does not appear to contain any powers at all in regard to smokeless zones.
  The House will be aware that Manchester has been very active for a long time in trying to deal with the smoke problem. As long ago as 1936 the corporation tried to get the railways electrified in order to abate the smoke nuisance in the city, and in our corporation Act of 1946 we obtained power to prohibit smoke in certain areas by the establishment of smokeless zones. We have found those powers most effective and most useful. We have up to the present created four smokeless zones in Manchester covering some 400 acres, and we are now surveying further areas with a view to making them smokeless zones.
  In the sixth recommendation in paragraph 121 of the Beaver Committee Report it is suggested that local authorities should have power, by means of Orders requiring confirmation by the appropriate Ministers, to establish both smokeless zones and smoke-control areas. In the smokeless zones of Manchester the emission of smoke of any kind from any premises is prohibited, but it would appear that in the smoke-control areas for which the Bill makes provision the emission of smoke is permitted so long as it is caused by an authorised fuel. There seems to be a very considerable difference between smokeless zones and smoke-control areas. It may be a small point, but it is one about which Manchester feels very strongly.
  The seventh recommendation of the Beaver Committee says that financial assistance should be provided by local authorities and the Exchequer towards the costs incurred by householders in converting appliances in smokeless zones and smoke-control areas. But, I would repeat, the Bill does not deal with smokeless
  1272
  zones; it refers only to smoke-control areas. We feel that the Beaver Committee's recommendations about smokeless zones ought to be implemented and included in the Bill so that local authorities, provided that they can convince the Minister of their case, will not be prohibited from establishing smokeless zones for lack of suitable legislation.
  The Bill provides that financial assistance from local authorities and the Exchequer should be made available towards the cost incurred by owners in converting their houses in smoke-control areas. The Beaver Committee recommended that similar assistance should also be available in the case of smokeless zones; but such assistance is not made available by the Bill. The result is that when local authorities like Manchester establish smokeless zones under their local legislation, owners and occupiers of premises in such areas will be deprived of the financial assistance which they would get if they were included in smoke-control areas. It appears that financial assistance is available only in the less effective smoke-control areas and not in the more effective smokeless zones.
  There is another point of very great importance to Manchester. Clause 29 (4) empowers the Minister to repeal any provision of any local Act which appears to him to be unnecessary having regard to the provisions of the Bill. Under that provision the Minister could repeal the provisions of the Manchester Corporation Act, 1946, relating to smokeless zones. I hope that the Minister will give the House an assurance that the power will be used only upon application by the local authority concerned.
  I hope that the Minister will also be able to assure us that he will look into the question of the smokeless zones, which seems to be of considerable importance, with the idea of bringing them within the scope of the Bill. He will thereby do much to improve a Bill which I am sure commends itself to the House as a very real attempt to deal with an extremely serious problem.
  6.36 p.m.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: As the debate has gone on, it has been apparent that more and more major criticisms have been levied against the Bill. I agree entirely with the criticisms which have been made, and one appreciates the difficulties

  1273
  of various hon. Members with regard to certain nuisances in their constituencies; but I want to say straight away that the danger from black smoke has been grossly exaggerated. It is not black smoke which is the danger. That can be obviated by increased electrification, and I do not see any reason why we should not have had in the Bill provision for compulsory electrification of factories and workshops.
  Reference to the real, deadly problem has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings). It is the problem of sulphur, particularly from power stations. References have been made to Stoke-on-Trent, Sheffield, and other places, but one of the worst spots in the whole of Britain—I challenge the Minister to contradict this—is northwest London. This arises not only from the railways at Camden Town; it arises from the Borough of Willesden, where I have lived for many years and have worked in the power stations. There are three power stations there, and only one is modern.
  Those power stations are emitting what appears to be colourless vapour. It is nothing more nor less than sulphuric acid gas. That has been proved beyond a peradventure. There have been repeated delegations to the Ministry of Health from outraged residents led by hon. Members representing the two Willesden constituencies, and they have taken with them furniture coverings and curtains which have been absolutely rotted away within a month. That is the real problem.
  Another danger which is omitted from the Bill—it was touched upon by my hon. Friend the (Member for Barking—is the emission, in car and lorry exhaust fumes, of carbon monoxide gas. A really dangerous situation is now arising in large cities where there is traffic congestion. What are the Government going to do about it? Carbon monoxide gas is odourless and deadly poisonous. Considerable quantities of deadly carbon monoxide gas arise from the dense traffic jams that we get nowadays. What are the Government doing about it? What research is taking place?
  A reference has been made to the railway problem. We could electrify the railways. If they are replaced by diesels, that will increase the problem of carbon monoxide poisoning taking place in the large stations. If the Parliamentary
  1274
  Secretary is in doubt about that, let him go to Leeds Central Station, where diesel locomotives come in on the local lines. He will smell the other gases, although he will not smell the carbon monoxide, of course, and they are all very deleterious to the health. The Government is going forward with practically complete dieselisation—if one may coin the word—of the railway system. Why not electrify it and restrict the smoke nuisance to the power stations and the power station areas? Why accelerate a new form of poisoning as a result of dieselisation?
  I want now to deal with the question of household fires. If the Government are to compel people to install these coal-saving grates and to burn fuel with a poor calorific value, they will get less smoke, but they will get a far more deadly emission of poisons, particularly in the sulphur content. I am amazed at the lip service and, indeed, the praise that is given to these smokeless zones. These smokeless zones in the City of Manchester and elsewhere get something far more deadly than smoke from household fires. I defy anybody to contradict me on this matter or to produce scientific information to the contrary.
  This problem must be considered, and do not let us think that just having a smokeless grate will mean we are not poisoning the atmosphere. In fact the pollution is infinitely greater in the smokeless zones than pollution with black smoke. Where there is the burning of coke in large quantities, or the burning of any other form of fuel other than coal, sulphur gas is still emitted.
  It is far too easy for the Government to talk in terms of smokeless zones and to suggest that they are laying the foundations of what is required to give Britain a clear atmosphere. The only way in which a smokeless zone can be obtained in any town is by the use of gas or electricity and it would, of course, be politically impossible to compel people to have gas or electric fires instead of coal fires. But that is the only way in which the smokeless zones can be obtained, and we should not assume, merely because we see black smoke, that the atmosphere is being polluted. In fact, in the smokeless zones where there is no black smoke, the atmosphere is far more polluted and dangerous.

  1275
  The Bill should contain Clauses compelling workshops and factories to be completely electrified. That would avoid the use of boilers and the emission of smoke from the boilers. That seems to be a practical proposition and, indeed, many progressive people have already taken that step. As for the railways, we should think again about dieselisation. We should have electrification.
  That brings me to my main point, the emission of poisonous gases from power stations. Let me say at once that the Government are not tough enough—nor was the previous Government—about the siting of power stations. Why do they have to be centred on the periphery of London and other industrial areas? There is no reason why they should not be in more sparsely populated areas in the country, as long as there is sufficient water. We followed that policy during the war with the construction of power stations on the outskirts of Reading and near St. Neots instead of cramming them on the periphery of London. When thousands and thousands of tons of coal are being burned each week in the power stations, the problem in only being aggravated.
  Why cannot the power stations be dispersed? It is no use the Minister of Fuel and Power telling us that the power stations would not be so economic, because when one is generating at high voltages, as is done today, the loss in potential is insignificant as far as the cost per kilowatt is concerned. Not only have we put power stations on the periphery of London, but we have built Bankside and put Bankside on to oil burning. Most hon. Members were concerned about the beauty of the architecture and whether Bankside would affect the graceful campanile of St. Paul's and the avenue that led up from the River Thames.
  Has an analysis been made of the escaping gases from Bankside power station? If so what was the sulphur content, and can we have any information about the beryllium deposit? There one sees a beautiful white plume. Hundreds of tons of oil are being burned and that beautiful white plume is mostly deadly sulphur.
  Mr. Deedes: Is the hon. Member referring to the old station or to the new one?
  Mr. Hobson: I am referring to the new one. That is the only one burning oil. I am referring to the folly—not the economic folly, that is another story—of having oil-fired boilers, and I want to know the sulphur content and the beryllium content.
  Dr. Stross: My hon. Friend will remember that Sir Herbert Williams made a special point of this in October, 1954, when he said "If the plume of smoke falls down, as it generally does as a result of washing, and is not dissipated by being a hot gas, the danger is that it falls nearby and the effect on health is worse than it would otherwise have been."
  Mr. Hobson: I heard that speech, and with the technical knowledge in my possession I agree, and I speak as one who has worked for more years than I care to remember in power stations. It is absolute folly to build power stations burning coal, and now oil, in the densely populated parts of cities. It is stupid and there should be a policy of dispersal.
  Having said that, I want to pay tribute to the British Electricity Authority, to the municipalities and to the power companies for what they have done in trying to avoid the nuisance. Thousands of pounds have been spent. I have installed brand new pumps and in twenty-four hours they have been eaten with sulphuric acid. We have lined them with rubber and met with a certain degree of success, but there is no practical way of getting rid of sulphur from the gases in power stations where gas washing takes place.
  The Government should make this matter a top priority, because sulphur in any form of gas is easy to eradicate in the laboratory. A fifth-form schoolboy could do it merely by introducing caustic soda or ammonia, but it is when we come to translate that eradication into the field of industry and applying it to modern industry and modern power stations, that we fall down. If capital were made available—and in our large boiler firms we have combustion engineers second to none—in a short space of time the problem could be eradicated.
  I was very pleased to see in the Bill one Clause—it is the only one with which I am in entire agreement—about the compulsory instalment of electrostatic

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  precipitators. These are highly successful, and I think it was the North Metropolitan Electricity Supply Company at the Brimsdown power station which pioneered it to a great extent. There is not the slightest doubt that as a temporary measure, until we have found out how we can wash gases and get rid of the sulphur, the electrostatic precipitator is the way out. It is the only way known for dealing with the cement dust problem in Gravesend and Dartford. I am very pleased that in the Bill there should be this reference to electrostatic precipitators.
  I want to turn now to the question of inspectors. Where are we to get them? We cannot use the ordinary sanitary inspectors for this job, which is a highly skilled task. We did the job during the war and during the fuel crisis of 1947, as the hon. Member for Kidderminster knows. We had to go round the power stations asking if combustion engineers, charge-hand stokers could be released, to be sent to various factories still burning coal in their boilers to try to teach men how they should stoke the boilers. The Government will find, when they come to operate this Bill when it becomes law, that it will be practically impossible to do so.
  Mr. Nabarro: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene? There are very considerable arrangements already in existence for the training of industrial boilermen and stokers in all parts of the country. The fact of the matter is that, in the courses organised in the last two or three years, a number of places available have not been filled, and only 700 industrial boilermen were trained last year out of a total of 75,000, and that figure could be multiplied two or three times over.
  Mr. Hobson: The majority of the boilermen are employed in the power stations, and they are pretty efficiently trained. I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that point, and I am sure I am right. The fact of the matter is that the Government must undertake some form of training immediately. The hon. Member for Kidderminster and I are in agreement that here is the real trouble.
  There are, however, other things that can be done. I do not see why there should not be consultation with the British
  1278
  Electricity Authority and the experts, like Babcock and Wilcox, the big boiler people, but we ought to make it compulsory for the stacks of power stations to be two and a half times as high as the highest part of their buildings. The higher the chimney stacks are before these gases are discharged into the atmosphere, the greater is the distribution of the gases, because it is spread over a considerably larger area and with a much smaller density. It is even argued that there is complete dispersal in those circumstances. That is a provision that might well have been included in the Bill.
  As the Bill is drafted, I think it will be a lawyers' paradise. I have here some decisions which were given by judges in appeal cases in the various courts in regard to the emission of grit. The most famous case was that of Manchester Corporation versus Farnworth, in which it was pointed out that the first thing to be proved was whose grit it was, and that it was impossible to do. We have had that sort of experience in Willesden, where it has been demonstrated to be an offence. The real point about this aspect, as I see it, is that when this Bill becomes an Act, after we have mauled it—and I hope improved it—judges will still say: "Provided that you are taking steps to mitigate the nuisance, you are complying with the Act."
  I know the problem, and the fact is that this Bill is a little premature. After the smog of 1952, everyone "got the breeze up," but that smog was confined to London, and the reason why those gases were confined to London was not only on account of its geographical situation, but also to the number of power stations in the London area. That was the real trouble, and therefore we have this Bill.
  We shall have to look at the Bill very carefully and improve it, but the real message I should like to leave with the Government today is that they must press on at all costs in dealing with the question of the emission of carbon monoxide from the exhausts of ordinary motor cars and lorries, and also deal with the problem of sulphur pollution, particularly where large quantities of coal are being consumed. If they do that in the next seven or eight months, we may succeed in making this a workable Bill and a credit to the House.
  6.55 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) made a rather disturbing speech, in which he suggested that we might be doing more harm than good. For example, the hon. Gentleman suggested that, in regard to domestic fires and the provisions in this Bill in that regard, that against all the black smoke which we may be prohibiting, we may have to set the fact that we may be producing something even more deadly. Not only did he say that, but he defied any hon. Member to contradict him, and no hon. Member did.
  It gave me quite a turn. I thought that, if the hon. Gentleman is really right and we are doing more harm than good, then it is time that some of the experts—and I see quite a lot of them on both sides of the House—ought to tell us so; but none of them have had the courage to get up and contradict the hon. Gentleman. I therefore hope that the Minister, when he comes to reply, will reassure us by saying that we are really doing some good in this Bill, if not all the good that might be done.
  When the hon. Member for Keighley says that the Bill is premature, I hope that that is not the opinion of the Minister or of the House. It seems to me that one step along this road is better than no step, and I therefore support the Bill in the same way as the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill), who opened the debate for the Opposition. Like her, I come from a smoky Lancashire industrial town, and although the figures of bronchitis in Warrington may be very bad, the smoke that hangs over my constituency is, I think, sometimes worse than that at Warrington. Warrington is surrounded by a plain, and the wind comes sweeping in from the sea to blow the smog and smoke away. My constituency is in a cup in the hills, and the smoke sometimes lingers for a very long time.
  I often wonder if the scientists, who seem to be considering the possibility of making rain nowadays, have not considered the possibility of making artificial wind. Why not blow away by some giant's hand this smoke that hangs over our large cities, such as that which hung over London for four days and killed 1,000 people per day in 1952? Have they not considered the possibility of producing
  1280
  some kind of artificial wind which would blow it away, which might have saved the lives of those people, and would also have saved the lives of all the cattle which died at Earls Court at that time?
  To all the reasons that have been advanced in favour of this Bill, and there have been some very strong ones on the grounds of health, I want to add one, not only on the grounds of health and economics, but on social grounds also, which I think is important. I am sure that the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington will agree with me when I say that one of the difficulties that we have in Lancashire in attracting new industries to areas which require them is the fact that the appearance of our towns is so very disagreeable.
  People who do not know the sterling worth of Lancashire are apt to be put off by the appearance of these towns, and thus people who might otherwise consider coming to settle there and bring new industries to these places feel that they cannot subject their wives and families to the ordeal of this industrial smoke. They think it would not be fair to do so, and one cannot blame them if they have not been brought up to endure it. I feel that on social grounds, and also on the grounds of the proper distribution of industry and labour, it is very important to cure this black smoke and to get rid of the pall of smoke that hangs over our industrial towns, particularly in the North of England.
  While this Bill will help towards that end, it is not going to abolish—and I am delighted to hear it—the open fire. That fact cannot be repeated too often, because undoubtedly there is a resistance in the population to this kind of Bill, because people have got it into their heads that, somehow or other, the open fire is to be done away with.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I had the distinct impression, and thought of making a short contribution to the debate on the subject, that the open fire was to be done away with.
  Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: No. We were strongly assured by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary that the Bill did no such thing. I think I must be right in that, or my hon. Friend would have corrected me. Therefore, unfortunately, we shall be spared a speech from my

  1281
  noble Friend. I am sorry if I have prevented such a speech, because it is always such a pleasure to hear from him.
  The Bill does not abolish the open fire. I am glad that that has been emphasised. Whether or not it will abolish black smoke, I am very doubtful. Speaking as a lawyer I agree with what the hon. Member for Keighley had to say about the enforcement provisions. The Parliamentary Secretary was at great pains to say that perhaps more than the actual provisions of the Bill, the success of the operation depended upon the good will of the population, of industry, the trade unions and so on. Whenever I hear a Minister appealing for good will and cooperation in enforcing a Measure I assume that that usually means that he is none too sure of the enforcement provisions in the Bill itself.
  I think that my hon. Friend is quite right to be doubtful of them. Not only are there obvious defences in Clause 2, which have been commented on, but the whole Bill is drafted in the modern form more as a manifesto or proclamation than as a law. It is a sort of propaganda leaflet designed to educate rather than anything else. Clause 19, which no doubt is very valuable, I should not have thought necessary except for propaganda purposes. Surely, local authorities already have power to:
  "arrange for the delivery of lectures and addresses, and the holding of discussions…for the display of pictures, cinematograph films or models, or the holding of exhibitions…"
  Surely they have those powers now. The only point of putting it in a Statute supposed to create the law of the land is for propaganda purposes. As a lawyer, it seems to me that this is a misuse of the Statute. Statute is designed to create and enforce the law of the land, and not to create public opinion for which purpose there are other organs.
  Clause 15, on railways, has rather an old-fashioned ring, too. It reads:
  "Section one of this Act shall apply in relation to railway locomotive engines as it applies in relation to buildings, but as if for the references to the occupier of the building there were substituted references to the owner of the engine."
  Subsection (2) of the same Clause says:
  "The owner of any railway locomotive engine shall use any practicable means there may be for minimising the emission of smoke
  1282
  from the chimney on the engine and if he fails so to do, he shall, if smoke is emitted therefrom, be guilty of an offence."
  I am not sure how many individuals in this country own railway engines, but there cannot be very many. Perhaps there are one or two dock companies, though I should have thought very few, and one or two very large constructional works and quarries. Of course, most railway engines are owned and controlled by British Railways.
  We know from the experience of St. Pancras Borough Council that the ordinary provisions for enforcement against British Railways of existing legislation—and this really goes no further—are quite inadequate. The St. Pancras Borough Council, at great trouble and expense, tried to do something about the scandal of Camden Town. Although a plea of guilty was entered, nothing whatever happened about it, and the magistrate took the view that the proceedings were a complete waste of time because all the expense came out of the public purse, anyhow.
  If that is to be the sort of way in which the law is enforced in connection with the emission of smoke from railway engines—and the Bill adds nothing to it again it is more an exercise in propaganda and exhortation than one in law. Another point on which I should like a little explanation is on the Clause relating to Crown premises. If one read Clause 17 by itself, one would get the impression that the premises under the control of the Crown—and quite what is meant by that I do not know—are having especially severe measures directed against them; but in fact the opposite is the case. The Bill is not to apply to the Crown and I should like to know why not. After all, the premises occupied by the Crown are most extensive.
  However they are defined, and there may be differences in definition on that, the Crown has very great resources and is far more able to comply with the rather expensive provisions of the Act than many subjects. I do not see why the Crown should not be subject to the Bill in the same way as anyone else, and as it often is in many Acts of Parliament these days. Why has it been given these privileges, because Crown immunity is certainly a privilege in matters like this? Is it simply that it is more convenient

  1283
  that the Civil Service should automatically get immunity, or has the matter really been considered and are there very good reasons why the Crown should be treated in a special way?
  I hope that saying that does not seem ungrateful to the Government, nor indeed to my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) who has spurred on this vital work from the moment the Beaver Report was received. Both he and the Government moved very swiftly in the matter. We have been provided with a very good basis for a Measure which no doubt will be improved in Committee. I hope that we shall not be daunted by the alarming views of the hon. Member for Keighley, who gave me quite a turn, and I hope that we shall—
  Mr. Hobson: The hon. Gentleman cannot refute what I said.
  Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I cannot refute his views because I do not know about these chemical matters, but I am assured by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster that they are all wrong; and if anybody ought to know, he should. I am happier at the end of my speech than I was at the beginning.
  I hope that the Government will consider putting more teeth into the Bill, extending it to the Crown, and extending it effectively to the nationalised concerns such as British Railways. If they do that they will have earned the thanks of all the people, and there are many of them, who dread the coming winter. They have to live in these smoky towns, whether London or elsewhere, and at this season of the year they are literally in fear of their lives. If some message goes out from this House tonight giving them the prospect of some action, then we shall have done a good day's work.
  7.9 p.m.
  Mr. L. M. Lever: I have listened very patiently both to the introduction of this Measure by the Parliamentary Secretary and to the speeches that have been made from both sides of the House. This Clean Air Bill will give the people a false sense of security as to the Government's ideas for making the air cleaner where action is so much needed in our large industrial areas.
  1284
  I hope I shall not appear presumptuous when I say that I feel that the Government ought to have introduced a Clean Air Bill with the same provisions as did the City of Manchester in 1946. For years we have been planning a cleaner city and looking forward to the time when the industrial life of Manchester would not in any way pollute the atmosphere. We have succeeded very well in the last nine years. We have pioneered clean air in smokeless zones.
  As the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) said, we have 400 acres in the City of Manchester free from pollution, and that covers four zones. We are not satisfied, and we are still considering the idea of extending the area even more. But we should not have achieved this had we proceeded under a lifeless, spineless Measure of this kind. This has been described as a Clean Air Bill, but in the Preamble it states that it is a Bill to make the air less polluted than it was. That is really all that this Bill is.
  There must be great disappointment with this Government Measure' among hon. Members on both sides of the House. A few months ago I supported a Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). We then had some specious promises from the Government about what they were going to do and we were asked, "Would it not be better to have a Government Bill?" We have waited and we are very disappointed, because nothing short of smokeless zones will achieve the desired result. This idea of smoke-control areas will achieve very little. The Government should have gone the whole hog, as we have in Manchester, where, if it is known that there is to be no smoke within a certain area, there is no need for technical inspectors, because the slightest sign of smoke is reported. There is no need for the kind of inspectorate to which so much reference has been made today.
  We in Manchester pioneered smokeless zones, but, because we have been as good as we have, we shall get no financial assistance under the provisions of this Bill. Only local authorities who try to have smoke-control areas will receive financial assistance. Authorities which have done the job properly, such as Manchester, are to be excluded completely.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: I would remind my hon. Friend that Manchester is in the centre of a 40-mile radius which is the blackest in the world.
  Mr. Lever: I agree. But we do not want to be excluded from financial benefit because we have been so thorough going in the measures we have applied. Heaven knows, we in Manchester have been badly neglected over financial benefits under this Government. We get nothing from the Exchequer equalisation grants, and now we are to be excluded from benefiting financially under this Bill because we have done the job too well and not in the half-hearted manner proposed in this Bill.
  I wish particularly to emphasise Clause 29 (4), where it states:
  "The Minister may by order repeal any provision of any local Act which appears to him to be unnecessary having regard to the provisions of this Act…"
  When this Bill is discussed in Committee, we should consider allowing those local authorities operating under local Acts to continue to do so unless they apply to be exempted from the provisions of the local Act. Then we in Manchester would feel safer and be able to plan ahead without the sense of frustration and uncertainty which is created by this Bill.
  Speaking as a lawyer, I consider that anyone could defend a person charged with any of the offences committed under the Bill. This Measure not only creates statutory offences but also creates statutory defences. Far from creating a "lawyers' paradise," I think that any layman could study it and say, "If I say this, it will be a good enough defence." Indeed, I feel that this may affect full employment in the legal profession rather than the paradise to which reference has been made. Seriously, I consider that this Bill needs a bit of starch. It requires toughening up. I hope that we shall do that and make it a worthy Measure so that the people of this country may get the clean air for which they so much yearn and which is absolutely necessary if we are to give the younger generation the opportunity of enjoying the healthy life that has been denied their parents.
  While I support the principle of a Clean Air Bill, I deplore the content of this Bill. I can speak with authority on behalf of Manchester when I say that this matter has been considered very care-
  1286
  fully there. We are disappointed that smokeless zones are excluded from the provisions of this Bill and that no financial benefit will be enjoyed by those authorities like Manchester who have provided smokeless zones. We consider that Section 29 ought to enable local authorities still to enjoy the benefits of local Acts such as that under which we in Manchester have acted so energetically. We are proud of what we have achieved in that city and, when this Bill becomes an effective Measure, we hope that others will follow our fine example.
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. E. W. Farey-Jones: My hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) said he wished that wind could be artificially manufactured in his part of the world. During the last few days there has been wafted across the Chamber from the Opposition benches a number of hot thermal currents which I feel have been artificially manufactured and which we have certainly felt on this side of the House. The right hon. Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) stated specifically that she, in common with many hon. Members on both sides of the House, was anxious to improve the Bill. I think it true to say that all the speeches to which I have listened, whether hon. Members were speaking as lawyers or technicians, have been designed specifically to try to elevate the Bill according to the point of view of the speaker.
  The right hon. Lady referred to a Bill of 1875—
  Dr. Summerskill: It was a Report, not a Bill.
  Mr. Farey-Jones: —a Report of 1875. She indicated that it has taken all this time to produce even this Measure. However much lawyers may seek to improve the Bill, in the long run, whatever capital outlay we expend in industry, it is the fuel with which we feed our fires which will result in clean air.
  Clean air zones are not necessarily non-poisonous zones; far from it. I am quite sure that some hon. Members opposite are as terrified as I am by the fact that while vast and increasing quantities of coal are going to the electricity and gas undertakings, year by year the quality of that fuel is steadily declining. Whatever capital outlay is expended and whatever scientists may do, unless the quality

  1287
  of the fuel fed into the furnace is improved, the position will continue to deteriorate. We owe a debt of gratitude to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) because it is as a result of his efforts that we have the Bill. He deserves commendation.
  This year we are importing about £80 million worth of foreign coal. Anyone who adopts a realistic attitude to this matter knows that we shall be compelled to continue to do that for many years to come. For the next ten or fifteen years we shall have to import foreign fuel in increasing quantities, irrespective of what happens in relation to atomic fuel or anything else. In connection with smokeless zones and non-poisonous zones, if there is one section of the community which can do more to make this Bill a success than any other, it is the coal mining industry. I am not singling anyone out for blame; I am saying that because our production of coal is going down—and we heard today that it has already gone down by 3½ million tons this year—coal of an ever-diminishing standard of quality is being delivered at factories and power stations.
  The question of clean or non-poisonous air is being studied not only here but, very scientifically, in the United States and Germany. We should take great care to ensure that incalculable capital sums are not wasted on the avoidance of the penalties imposed under the Bill. The right hon. Lady took considerable objection to Clause 1 (3, c) which she said provided an escape in relation to inferior fuel. I suggest that there is a real reason for that Clause. Until this year all our electricity authorities had delivered to them, by the National Coal Board, coal and fuel of a prescribed quality. That standard is to be dropped because of the fall in the production of coal. I am sure that the Minister will confirm that when he replies.
  Lastly, I would draw the attention of the House to a series of successful experiments with high carbon coke in foundries, which have been carried out in the United States and in Germany. If we say that we shall get clean air purely by legislation we shall mislead everybody. We shall get it only if we insist upon the provisions of the Bill being enforced—and a fundamental condition for the attainment of our
  1288
  object is an upgrading in the marketing and handling of coal and fuel, not only for factories but also for private homes.
  7.26 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Moyle: I cannot recall an occasion quite like this, when both sides of the House have been almost unanimous in condemning the means by which the Bill seeks to achieve its aims. I share the view expressed by the hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke), that the Bill is a manifesto—although I suggest that the right term is a propaganda leaflet.
  The Minister has been very good and has listened to the debate from the beginning, but his entry into the Ministry of Housing and Local Government has not been very auspicious. Last week he announced his abdication of responsibility for housing the people, and today he shows that he is not anxious to enter the field as "King Smog." The Bill breaks down simply because of his enthusiasm to foist upon local authorities a responsibility, which he should accept as a duty, to see that everything is done to provide the people with clean air.
  In drafting the Bill, the Minister has seen to it that whatever territory he already possesses he will keep. He has rigidly stuck to the retention of the Alkali Inspectorate. I speak with a great deal of feeling about this matter—
  Mr. Ellis Smith: It is time somebody did.
  Mr. Moyle: —because my constituents have looked forward to the Bill for some time. My constituency contains firms which have been and still are pioneers in the manufacture of chemical, agricultural and pharmaceutical products, but my constituents have to pay the price for that. They have suffered air pollution not merely from grit and dust but also from some of the invisible fumes to which my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) referred.
  Anyone who has experienced such things once will not wish to experience them again if he can avoid it. The smell is not only indescribable but is now identified by names which I dare not repeat in the House because I should soon be called to order if I did. This public nuisance in my constituency, caused by the fumes which infect the air,

  1289
  has been the subject of representations from time to time not only by myself on behalf of my constituents to the Minister concerned, but also by adjacent local authorities. What has happened? Inspectors have come to the area and investigated the complaints. They have issued reports. As a result we have been told that everything which can be done has been done—in short, that every practicable measure which can be taken by the firms concerned has been taken by them.
  Something more is necessary to meet the deep resentment expressed by those affected by this continuous air pollution. It would be more satisfactory if the Minister were to inform the localities concerned that there is no method by which this air pollution can be successfully combated, instead of merely saying that the firms concerned are doing everything practicable to deal with it.
  I heard the Parliamentary Secretary introduce the Bill, and I must confess that I share the views expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) on the casual way in which he introduced it. He looked at some Clauses and promptly passed to the next. I wonder whether he is aware of the deep resentment felt by the people who are affected by this pollution.
  Is he aware of the deep resentment felt by the people of South Thames-side about the continuous belching of cement dust by night? I speak as a victim of it. When one wakes up in the morning one finds the whole district overlaid with a grey dust—the shrubs, the garden produce, everything infected by this repeated emission of cement dust, particularly by night. Something more will have to be done, and a greater sense of urgency will have to be shown by the Government if the people are to be expected to accept this experience of smells and air infections which they have to endure as the price for the continuance of these admittedly important industrial establishments.
  In my constituency we are engaged in high priority work. Everybody understands that. Nevertheless, the Minister of the day must convince the people that all scientific knowledge available is at the service of those who have to endure, day after day, the indescribable smells and the pollution of grit and dust with which they have to live day by day.
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  In defence of the Minister, I must say that I hope he will not abrogate his responsibility for the central Alkali Inspectorate. How can a local authority deal with it? The areas extend beyond any one local authority. It is impossible for a local authority to deal with undertakings responsible for the operation of certain important chemical processes. They have not the expert technical knowledge to do so.
  The Minister cannot extend the territory of the existing Alkali Inspectorate, already overworked, without adding to its expert personnel. Everybody knows that the existing personnel is totally inadequate to deal with the air pollution caused by various alkali establishments throughout the country. Now another whole range of industries is to be brought within the scope of the Inspectorate and we are entitled to ask the Minister whether the Inspectorate will be strengthened to match the obligations provided for in the Bill.
  May I deal next with the additional responsibilities which it is proposed to place upon the shoulders of the sanitary inspectors? The sanitary inspector has a lot to do at the moment. I hardly think that the chief sanitary inspector of an authority possesses the essential qualifications to understand and deal with smoke abatement and gaseous fumes. I have no desire to see this work taken out of the province of the chief sanitary inspector, but I think there is a strong case for the appointment of a smoke abatement officer with the necessary technical qualifications to deal generally with these public nuisances.
  An encouraging fact which emerged from the Beaver Report is that fuel efficiency and smoke abatement are complementary and are good economics. There is a complete identity of interest between employers, smoke abatement and fuel efficiency; the three go together. There is no ethical obligation imposed on an employer by the Bill; it is a question of economics right the way through. The Beaver Report makes that clear.
  I cannot understand why the Government are so lackadaisical about fuel efficiency, in view of the provisions in the Finance Act last year enabling fuel equipment to be installed on easy terms, in both loans and interest, and in view of the general conviction shared by all

  1291
  of the importance of making coal work harder and avoiding its waste.
  In the circumstances, I should have thought the Government would seriously consider inserting a provision in the Bill fixing an appointed day—giving a few years' grace if they like—and instructing the industrialists of this country and other large coal consumers that unless they install modern fuel equipment to achieve a reasonable standard of fuel efficiency, they will be guilty of a criminal offence under the provisions of a Bill concerned with smoke abatement and fuel efficiency. Those are some of the points I should like the Minister to consider and I hope he will deal with them in his reply.
  7.41 p.m.
  Mr. Ronald Bell: For a very long time I have thought of this question of the pollution of the atmosphere which we breathe as one of the most important matters that ought to engage the attention of Parliament. The injury to health caused day by day and year by year by the breathing of polluted air is almost impossible to over-estimate.
  I differ from some hon. Members who have addressed the House today in that I think this Bill makes a valuable contribution towards rectifying that state of affairs, but the Bill has some limitations and defects which I hope the Government will in due course correct. So far as I see, the Bill is limited to the effects of combustion, a point to which the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Moyle) referred when, for example, he spoke about cement works. There are important sources of atmospheric pollution not caused by combustion, and something ought to be done about them. As many hon. Members have pointed out, the Bill relates primarily to smoke; it is a smoke abatement Bill and does not concern itself with those noxious fumes of various kinds which are poured into the atmosphere but which are not smoke.
  In my opinion, which I know on previous occasions I have shared with the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings) and others, it is those fumes and not smoke—the solid particles—which constitute the main danger to health, although of course I think, as I am sure
  1292
  other hon. Members do, that the solid particles must do some damage to the health of those who breathe them. It is the gases, in particular the sulphur gases—sulphur dioxide—which make the great ravages in public health. I think this Bill is very valuable because it introduces steps to get rid of smoke and solid particles.
  I think we ought to bear in mind that if we can get rid of smoke we shall have taken an important step towards getting rid of poisonous gases. They may still be emitted and pollute the atmosphere, but, after all, we are concerned with poisonous fumes polluting the atmosphere in its lowest 100 feet. So long as they do not pollute that part of the atmosphere which is against the ground and is breathed by human beings, we need not be so much concerned with the fact that they are polluting the atmosphere generally.
  In this country we have only too frequently atmospheric conditions when the layers of air against the earth are regrettably stable. This city is famous for that. The great fogs which hang over us, sometimes for days upon end, mark conditions of that kind. As hon. Members know, they are caused by the cooling of the earth during the night, and the main factor which makes them persist is that the sun's rays cannot penetrate through to warm the earth and allow convection currents to clear the bottom layer away. In my experience, the main reason for that has been that smoke accumulates in the bottom stable level of cold air and prevents the sun's penetration so that, instead of the bottom layer being churned up during the morning, it persists throughout the day until the next night. So we get the dreadful carry-over from night to night, which produces the awful fogs we sometimes experience in London, Manchester and other cities.
  If we can get rid of the smoke, with its screening effect on the sunlight—the smoke with its hygroscopic particles which themselves create fog—we shall have taken the first and, in my belief, the most important step that we can take in getting rid also of the pollution of the atmosphere by noxious gases as distinct from smoke pollution. So I think this Bill is a very important Bill. It is only a smoke abatement Bill, but smoke abatement is the easiest problem to deal with

  1293
  and all other problems of atmospheric pollution are mixed up with it.
  I would say to my hon. Friends, let us press on with this smoke abatement as vigorously as we can, knowing that we shall have taken the first, simplest and most concrete step towards solving all the other problems of atmospheric pollution. It certainly will not solve them all. I ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Minister to look at the general law relating to public nuisances. In the past smoke has been rather left out of the law of nuisance. Of course it can constitute a nuisance and a private individual can obtain legal remedies on account of smoke, but on the whole it has been such a usual thing for every man's chimney to be turning out smoke that I cannot remember any case—although I dare say there has been one—where smoke alone has been the nuisance complained of.
  On the other hand, poisonous and often malodorous fumes to which the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen referred have been the subject of particular attention already. Many local authorities have powers in Private Acts to proceed in the case of smoke and fumes nuisance, and under the general law proceedings in respect of fumes and smells are fairly frequent under the law of public nuisance, but not nearly frequent enough. I certainly want to see the law strengthened, either in this Bill or apart from this Bill, in respect of those fumes. But I should say to my hon. Friend that probably it is mainly a matter of administration and enforcement of the existing law, and if we had the men—
  Mr. Moyle: I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving way. I believe the position is that the alkali industries are specially exempted from the bye-laws usually operative under local authorities.
  Mr. Bell: Probably the hon. Member has some special knowledge of that.
  Mr. Moyle: Yes.
  Mr. Bell: I accept what the hon. Member says.
  There is the general law of public nuisance, and if what the hon. Member has just said is correct, certainly there is an unanswerable case for putting a Clause into this Bill to repeal that provision of the law. I believe the hon.
  1294
  Member said that a proviso is embodied in various Private Acts. I suppose it is a model Clause saying that such a provision shall not apply to the alkali industries. If so, it would be possible to draft a Clause and put it into this Measure applying the general law of public nuisance quite expressly to the alkali industries and any others which pour out noxious fumes.
  I am sure that it is primarily a matter of enforcement, as in many other matters—for example, in relation to motor traffic, for which we already have laws concerning matters like defective lights and brakes. The law simply is not enforced. So also in relation to poisonous fumes, the principal difficulty is that, because either of lack of manpower or inertia, the law about them is not enforced. Because of its importance, I think that it should be enforced.
  There is one further point, which concerns fumes from road transport. Several other hon. Members have referred to this most important consideration. The volume of fumes poured out each day is simply terrific. From the ordinary petrol engine, carbon monoxide—to which the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) referred—is poured out in vast quantities in the crowded streets of our cities; and from diesel engines there are those thick glutenous fumes which we see when we are driving on the road if we are unlucky enough to get behind a diesel lorry. If one is driving up a hill, one can scarcely see either the lorry or the hill for the fumes which come from the exhaust.
  Against all these nuisances, no action appears to be taken. There is, for example, the provision of the law that a person shall not leave a motor car stationary with the engine running. It is done very frequently, I am afraid, but I have never known of a prosecution for it. I do not think that those who are responsible for enforcing the law are at all fume-conscious.
  The Government should try to make the country acutely conscious of the damaging effects of the fumes that come from all kinds of motor transport. I look forward to the day when an internal combustion engine will not be allowed in the centre of London. I am sure we should not allow diesel vehicles there now, and I have said so frequently. It is

  1295
  quite wrong that we should be expanding the number of diesel buses in central London and it is wrong that we should permanently accept the ordinary petrol internal combustion engine in the centre of London.
  I should like to see a Clause in the Bill giving a date—say, ten years hence—after which no internal combustion engine would be allowed in central London. I think that something would soon be found to put in its place if it were known that in ten years' time those engines simply would not be allowed in. The damage which they cause to health is sufficient to justify so drastic a step.
  I welcome the Bill, with all its imperfections, which I recognise. It is a valuable step forward. While I hope that it will be amended and strengthened in Committee, I am principally anxious to see it speeded on to the Statute Book so that this step forward, at least, should be consolidated.
  7.54 p.m.
  Sir Leslie Plummer: As many of my hon. Friends wish to contribute to the debate, perhaps the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. R. Bell) will forgive me if I do not follow him either along the course of natural science which enthralled us towards the beginning of his speech, or along his other animadversions on the Bill, except to say that it was a masterpiece of understatement to refer to the Bill as having some imperfections. When the Minister and Parliamentary Secretary come to deal with it in Committee, they will find that stronger language can be used.
  I wanted to refer—I am sorry he is not now present—to the speech of the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Farey-Jones), which, again, was a masterpiece, but this time a masterpiece of irrelevancy. What he said, in effect, was that we must be realists and that, in fact, we could not afford the Bill. I do not want to do the hon Member an injustice, but that is what I think he tried to say. I propose to deal with this matter as a realist and to put a realistic point of view.
  We have all been in danger of emulating the wartime bomb bore who described his bomb as the biggest that ever landed. In this case, we say that ours is the dirtiest
  1296
  city or constituency. At the risk of being, as it were, a dirty-constituency bore, I want to say for a riverside constituency such as mine that realism is really required.
  In 1954, we had 115 deaths from respiratory diseases. In 1952, when the great smog hit London, 50 people died as a result of the four days of smog from 6th to 9th December. What we have to consider is not whether the Bill will result in the expenditure of a lot of money, but whether it will save the lives of Londoners, and particularly those who live in the Thames Valley, as my constituents do. Many of them live on marshy ground which is quite unfit for human habitation; but the houses were built there during the Industrial Revolution. They always have a pall of moisture over their heads that collects both smoke and smog. These people really must have their lives protected. We cannot go on in this fashion with the mortality that we are getting.
  There has been a good deal of discussion about the incidence of sulphur in the air. The Parliamentary Secretary did the House a disservice. My right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill), at the opening of the debate, asked for particulars about the amount of sulphur that is being produced, and the hon. Gentleman did not know. I know how much sulphur is being produced because I happen to have read the Beaverbrook Report. [Laughter.] I apologise. In another world I used to work for his Lordship, and I would never have used such a diminutive for so strong a master. The Beaver Report makes it quite clear that from the 205 million tons of coal consumed in 1953, about 2 million tons of smoke and 4·4 million tons of sulphur were emitted. These figures, of course, are absolutely terrifying. I did not know, and I am sure that the nation does not know without reading the Report, that so considerable an amount of sulphur is emitted every day.
  Industry and the railways between them are responsible for something like seven-eighths of the grit and four-fifths of the sulphur that is produced. Under these conditions, why are the Government so tender to industry? Why have they been so permissive to industry? Why are they saying that industry has seven years in which it can put this trouble right? In

  1297
  fact, it is more than seven years—it is seven years from the appointed day, which may mean eight or nine years. We do not know when the appointed day will be. We do not know how long the Bill will take to get through both Houses of Parliament. During all that time, those people who are putting four-fifths of the 41 million tons of sulphur into the air each year will be allowed to continue and to get away with it.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington quoted from some scientific and technical journals, but I wish to repeat what was said in the "Medical World," which is not, I understand, a paper associated with the Labour Party. Its issue of 17th October criticised the Bill considerably, and it used these pregnant words:
  "Surely, public health and industrial efficiency are complementary and not antagonistic."
  Dr. Summerskill: Hear, hear.
  Sir L. Plummer: I am sure we all agree with that. This means, in effect, that the Government will be pressed very hard in Committee that the period of allowance given to the industrial companies should be considerably less than seven years. Why should not the many factories making a profit out of the processes which cause the emission of this smoke charge against their profits whatever is necessary to ensure the smoke is not emitted? Why should we have to wait until new machines are put in? Technicians and engineers are perfectly capable of seeing to it that the existing boilers, the existing furnaces, consume their own smoke. I know that the sanitary officers of the City of London, who have to deal with noxious gases in the neighbourhood of Fleet Street from the great industry housed there, see to it that those gases are dealt with. They inspect the machinery quite regularly in the interests of the people of the City.
  One of the things I am disturbed about is the use in the Bill of the word "practicable." Everything can be excused if it is "impracticable" to do anything about it. Anything can be defended if "practicable" means cannot be adopted. What does it mean? Who is going to decide whether a thing is practicable or not?
  One hon. Gentleman opposite—I think it was the hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke)—referred to Clause 19,
  1298
  and said he thought it was ridiculous to give powers to the local authorities to give lectures and show films illustrating the deleterious effects of smoke emission. I am not sure of that. I am not so sure that St. Pancras Borough Council would not be well advised to spend a little money in giving such advice to the magistrate who suggests that nothing can be done about smoke from locomotives because it is a case of one public authority suing another public authority. Unless the Government show determination, and determination to cut down the period during which people can evade their responsibilities, magistrates of that sort are going to treat these matters very lightheartedly indeed.
  In my constituency people are worried about the permissive Clauses of the Bill. Suppose the surrounding boroughs decide they will not do anything under the Bill. Is Deptford to receive the smog coming up river when the wind is in the South or the South-East? At what stage is the Minister going to step in and say, "You have got to do something about this smog. I insist upon it." There will be some councils, not so progressive as my own, who will find that it is in their interest, or in the interests of some people in their boroughs, not to make the necessary order. We cannot go on playing about with the lives of the people like this. We have to make industry do the things necessary to safeguard the lives of the people and we must therefore insist that statutory powers are both given and used.
  I wish the Bill nationalised coal processes. I wish there were a Measure for that. I am sorry that when the Labour Government nationalised the mines of the country they did not also nationalise coal distribution—though I shall not deal with that now, because I should be out of order if I did—and did not also nationalise the processing by which the smokeless fuel is produced. Had they done so we might have got somewhere by now with cleaning the air. The fact is that today if one wants to buy a ton of smokeless fuel in my constituency one has not only to pay £1 a ton more for it than for other coal but one has to wait six months before one gets it, and then one is rather lucky to get it in six months. There is no guarantee that the Minister of Fuel and Power will procure the necessary smokeless fuel—none at all. The way he is going on he will be extremely lucky to

  1299
  get even a small percentage of what is required.
  There is one thing which worries us on this side of the House, and it is born out of our deep suspicion of the Minister of Housing and Local Government. We have very good reasons for our suspicions in the White Paper just published about housing subsidies. Why is it that the compensation specified is to be paid to the owner or occupier? Why should it be paid to the owner, when in many instances it will be the occupier who will pay for the putting in of the necessary smokeless fuel consuming grate? Why does the Bill call for the prosecution of the occupier? Will there not be cases in which the owner will decide not to do anything, that he will not install under the order the smoke consuming grate? Yet the occupier himself may be unable, because he is too poor, to pay to have the necessary equipment put in. Is the occupier to be prosecuted then?
  Why is it that the local authorities have to pay any share of the compensation for which the Bill provides? Local authorities, by the time they have dealt with increased rents under one order and the increased rents under the alteration of the Rent Acts, will find themselves in a difficult position enough. It is too bad that the Government demand that what should be a national charge is instead to be a charge on the local rates. This is not a local problem. It is a problem which concerns the health of a very large number of our people, and the cost of such an instrument for preserving and safeguarding the health of the people ought to be borne by the national Exchequer, not by the local authorities. The local authority in my constituency feels most strongly about that.
  Finally, I want to deal with the question of diesel exhausts. We know that in London in a very short time all the trolley buses are to be taken off the roads, and certainly many of them will be replaced by diesel buses. I do not know whether the exhausts of the diesel engines causes cancer of the lung or not. I do not suppose anybody knows, but there is a deep suspicion on the part of some medical people that it is possible that they do, or that they have an influence and an effect towards cancer. I do not know, but the length of time it takes for cancer to develop, what may be called
  1300
  the latent period, may be five, ten, fifteen, twenty years. Thus it is a frightening risk we are taking, and taking without a full knowledge of the facts.
  An hon. Member has referred to the discomfort one feels if one follows a diesel bus. It is a discomfort which is often caused because the exhaust box is dirty and needs attention. That is why from diesel motors run properly, whose exhausts are properly clean, there is only a reasonable amount of smoke. We know—do we not?—that under the Tory Government's policy of handing back to private industry the nationalised lorries, attention to those lorries will be less than it was and that the lorry drivers will not have the maintenance of their vehicles they had before. Already we see great gusts of smoke coming from those lorries, which clearly are not being operated properly. What in this Bill will make people right faults of that kind?
  What is to happen in London on damp, muggy days when our narrow streets are choked with buses standing still with their engines running? Any day one can see Regent Street choked from Oxford Circus to Piccadilly Circus with stationary buses emitting smoke all the time. Do we know how dangerous this is? Are the Government concerned to have research to find out the facts?
  I have seen in California the long-distance lorries going from southern California into Mexico, running along the Pacific coast, with their exhaust pipes coming out of the top of the vehicle, so that gases do not go on the ground. I do not know whether that is a good thing or not. However, I certainly feel that we are playing with the lives of our people. Medical science is agreed that smoke has certainly some influence on cancer, and one would have thought that this Bill would have given an opportunity for research further and further into the subject. But it does not.
  The Government are too worried about seeing to it that industrialists are not put out too much. They are too worried, as the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), who does not particularly sweeten the political atmosphere of the House but who on this occasion did a very good job in making the speech he did—
  Mr. Ellis Smith: It is the F.B.I. that decides the policy.
  Sir L. Plummer: —as the hon. Member for Kidderminster said, about not upsetting the F.B.I., which is handing down the policy.
  I hope that those of us who look forward with pleasure to many happy weeks in which, morning after morning, we shall be in Committee on this Bill will band together to improve it.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. Maurice Orbach: My hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) referred to the use of the term "practicable" in connection with the Bill. He will recall that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, in introducing the Bill, said that the Government could not feel that there were any loopholes or escape clauses in it, that we could deal with offenders and that "practicable" was clearly defined in Clause 28. I have looked up Clause 28, and I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he can tell me what it means. It says:
  "'practicable' means reasonably practicable having regard, amongst other things, to cost and other financial consequences, to local conditions and circumstances and to the current state of technical knowledge and 'practicable means' includes the provision and the maintenance of plant and the proper use thereof;".
  It would have been helpful if the framers of the Bill had consulted the Oxford Junior Dictionary for a definition, because the definition in the Bill will not help anybody. Judging from the interventions by lawyers on the other side of the House, it is fair to say that this definition will provide a "pheasant and port dinner" for more and more lawyers all over the country if the Clause is adopted in its present phraseology.
  It is extraordinary that we are having the Second Reading of the Bill this week. We have had the Chanceller calling for a credit squeeze and introducing in his Budget higher Purchase Tax to help our balance of payments problem and our fiscal position, yet, in one of the most important Clauses of the Bill, owners and occupiers are to be asked to introduce new domestic grates and other homeheating appliances. These, we are told, will be more difficult to obtain now, and
  1302
  certainly they will be dearer. The Minister who introduced the Bill wants to have them to ensure clean air, and the Chancellor is making it difficult, if not impossible, to obtain them.
  Another extraordinary thing about the introduction of the Bill this week is that, if it becomes law, this time next year hundreds of thousands of people will be guilty of an offence. Under Clause 12 it will be an offence to make a bonfire. It is most unseasonable to suggest at this particular time that the Clause should be adopted. But, seriously, can the Minister envisage any means of disposing of garden rubbish except by bonfire?
  Dr. Summerskill: Yes.
  Mr. Orbach: I hope that in Committee the Minister will amend the Clause to allow us, if not to get rid of our garden rubbish, at least to remember a one-time illustrious if misguided Member of the House.
  The Bill emphasises the failure of the Ministry of Fuel and Power, because throughout it there is a demand for adequate supplies of smokeless fuel. Today, no one knows, and we have been given no indication, whether there are adequate supplies in any area. What will happen when we have more smoke control areas? If the Bill is passed and smoke control areas are declared throughout the country, the demand for smokeless fuel will be enormous. Are supplies to be left to private enterprise, or is there to be some indication with the passing of the Bill of parallel action on behalf of the Ministry of Fuel and Power by the National Coal Board to ensure adequate supplies today and to meet the demands of tomorrow?
  How much smokeless fuel is available now? What steps is the Minister taking to meet the demand? What areas will be adequately covered? Is the Minister going to plan distribution, and will there be priorities? Will smoke control areas have the fuel first or are laggard local authorities to be allowed to have the supplies as well?
  The Bill pinpoints peculiarities and anachronisms in the Government's actions. We are exporting Welsh steam coal and anthracite, perhaps two of our most effective smokeless fuels, and we are importing coal of distinctly low grades. We are told by experts on both

  1303
  sides of the House that it is possible even when using low-grade fuel, provided that the furnace is efficient and one has a skilled stoker, to reduce the amount of smoke or to prevent the smoke from polluting the atmosphere. The point is, have we the skilled stokers? I know that the National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service is promoting the training of stokers and that London County Council and other local education authorities run classes in stoker training, but that training is hardly sufficient. We are told that there are 700 trained stokers available. We want not only the training of stokers but a number of other things as well which will guarantee their employment.
  The Ministry of Works is perhaps the worst offender in this respect. It does not employ a skilled stoker in the many Government enterprises and establishments which it has under its control. As a result, not only is much coal lost but also we have the emission through chimneys of the grit, noxious gases and smoke of which we all complain. The Ministry of Works and Government Departments are paying men to stoke their furnaces labourer's rates, plus twopence an hour while employed on steam boilers. If they employ men at these wages, irrespective of any knowledge or experience on a seasonal basis—they sack them in the summer—they cannot be serious about the Bill.
  I have some knowledge about this matter because, at the hospitals of which I am chairman, we spend £50,000 a year on coal and coke. We have found from an examination that we made that, in hand firing, by employing skilled stokers we can save one in every four tons of coal. By automatic firing, if we were allowed to have automatic hoppers, we could save between 5 per cent. and 10 per cent. The Government will not allow us to have the hoppers.
  The Government say to hospitals that they must not be responsible for any capital expenditure and that where there is a worn-out boiler in a hospital it can be replaced only with a boiler of the same type as the old one. I have had installed for £18,000 a new boiler which is of exactly the same type as the boiler that was installed 53 years ago. If we had been allowed to spend a further £1,400 I could have obtained an automatic hopper
  1304
  that would have saved between 5 per cent. and 10 per cent. of coal and at the same time would have guaranteed that the surrounding air would not be as polluted as it is at present.
  I suggest that the Government should take a firm and helpful step by supporting a national scheme for training stokers and guaranteeing stokers in their employment regular work, treating them as skilled or semi-skilled. They should break with Civil Service tradition and give the men a bonus for actual fuel savings.
  I am concerned about the problem mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Deptford of the nuisance created when one authority can have its air polluted because laggard authorities in the neighbourhood refuse to act. In giving the Minister, as we do in almost the final Clause of this Bill, power to withhold or to relax any declaration, at the same time power should be given to a local authority which feels it is aggrieved to go to the Minister and appeal against a laggard or reluctant authority which is allowing smoke to pollute the air, not only in its own district but in districts nearby.
  In a smoke survey begun just before the war by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, it was revealed that in a district four miles east of Leicester 30 per cent. surface smoke sulphur dioxide came from Leicester, 25 per cent. came from Birmingham which was 30 miles away and 45 per cent. came from elsewhere. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will himself amend the Bill, but if he will not, some of us will put down a Clause which we hope will govern that case.
  We have had a reference to Chalk Farm and to the difficulties experienced by St. Pancras Borough Council in obtaining a prosecution against the railway authority. I live at Chalk Farm and I suffer a great deal from these noxious gases and the smoke that pollutes the surrounding atmosphere. At the same time I represent Willesden, where we have Willesden Junction and three enormous power stations.
  We have talked about the practicability of doing anything about railway engines. But may I suggest to the Government that they follow the precedent set in New York State at least 30 years ago to my knowledge? I remember when first I went to New York that I was interested to find

  1305
  that no steam locomotive went into the city. Thirty miles out of New York City the steam locomotives have to be uncoupled and electric traction locomotives take trains into the city. There is no reason why we should not adopt the same process. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will consider it.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government said that there is to be a Clean Air Council. I hope that there will be representatives of the National Coal Board, of fuel conservation bodies and of the general public on that council. I emphasise what was said by my hon. Friend, that adequate money should be put aside for research. I do not want to argue with my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson). After all, he is a constituent of mine, and I am sure that when he goes to vote he puts a cross against my name, but he frightened me, as I am sure he frightened every hon. Member of the House. I am sure that what he said was correct, but even so, I still want to go ahead with this Bill.
  We recognise the fact that most people in this country live in densely populated areas where the air is contaminated. My area suffers particularly from this painful and annoying nuisance. My constituents write to me feelingly upon this subject. I have made representations to the Ministry and to the various authorities about it, because not only have we three power stations in the area but we are building an extension to one which is bigger than the other three put together, and they are almost the three largest in the country. I hope it will be agreed that the pollution for which they are responsible leads not only to ill health but to industrial inefficiency.
  This is particularly noticeable in the industrial concentration in the Borough of Willesden, eloquently misnamed "Park Royal." There is nothing regal about it and nothing can grow there because of the noxious gases we get from the different power stations—
  Mr. Archer Baldwin: And good stout.
  Mr. Orbach: Yes, from Sir Hugh Beaver's emporium. Driving past the Acton Lane power station, as I have to do frequently, I find that visibility is
  1306
  almost nil because of its belching chimneys. Central Middlesex Hospital is less than a quarter of a mile away, where we specialise, amongst other illnesses, in thoracic complaints, and where we helped to deal with the rather painful disease that settled on this country as a result of the smog in December, 1952.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings) has already spoken about the ill-health aspect of this problem. I want to say that we are disturbed about the laundry which the housewives wash painfully and carefully and which, as they hang it out, gets dirtier and dirtier. If we could get rid of smog and dirt we might not have so much "Tide" and "Daz" and "OmO" and the rest of the nonsense which we get through our letter boxes every day, and the fabrics we use would not disintegrate.
  In my area I find that the pride of suburban householders suffers and the gardens become patchy because there can be little growth where there is such painful pollution of the air. Also the fabrics of our buildings need constant attention. This building, the Palace of Westminster, has been in splints since I was a child, and it will go on being in splints when I am carried off, because of the smoke, the grit and the sulphur in the air.
  We have used coal for 1,000 years and we are still not using it properly. We still have not counted the cost. We have waited for this Bill a long time, but I am wondering whether it is the Bill that we have been waiting for. In introducing it the Parliamentary Secretary said that we must not go too fast. No one wants to go too fast. Perhaps we ought to go slowly, but let us be determined about it. I suggest that we have to go further in strengthening this Bill in order to make it effective. I want to thank Sir Hugh Beaver. I hope he is listening to this debate and seeing, like the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), how his ideas are being buried deeper and deeper by the Government which possibly he supports.
  Sir Hugh Beaver was not the first one to take up this matter. Neither was the Report of 1875 the first one dealing with it. In the old days Parliament was a body which laid down the laws. In Edward l's time there was a proclamation that there should be no use of coal in London while Parliament was in session,

  1307
  In Elizabeth I's time the proclamation was repeated. There was an attempt by Londoners in 1648 to prohibit Newcastle coal from coming into the city. In those days the country used only one million or two million tons of coal yearly. Now we use 4 tons of coal each a year, representing 170 million to 190 million tons of coal annually.
  Although we support the Bill, none of us has been wholehearted about it, not even the Parliamentary Secretary, who introduced it in the most doleful tones in which I have ever heard a Motion or Bill introduced during the 10 years that I have been in the House. I hope he will be a little more enthusiastic about it now that he realises that it has a long Parliamentary history behind it.
  We must strengthen the Bill in Committee. We must make a real start with the task of cleaning the air of our cities and, at the same time, conserving supplies of hard-won fuel. On the basis of our existing laws, it would be possible, through determined effort, to secure definite reductions in pollution. The Minister must have the courage to ensure that a start is made.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. William Yates: I am very glad to follow the hon. Member for Willesden, East (Mr. Orbach). We on this side of the House definitely support every word of the Bill.
  Mr. Orbach: The hon. Gentleman is the first one to say so.
  Mr. Yates: I do not mind saying it. We have smoke in The Wrekin. This was where the Industrial Revolution originated. We have tremendous difficulty about smoke near Dawley, Dosely and Oakengates.
  The attitude of our industrialists towards smoke is not satisfactory. For many years they have polluted most of our rivers, and it has taken a long time to persuade them not to do so. We have had to form all sorts of associations to protect our rivers from the industrialists who have been discharging stuff into them, ruining the fish and countryside. Industrialists have also for a long time been discharging smoke into the air completely regardless of the people round about. It is high time that a Bill like the
  1308
  present one was brought forward. Such a Bill must have teeth in it.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Help us to put some in.
  Mr. Yates: Perhaps we may get them from the National Health Service!
  In any case, I shall do all I can to help the Bill and to ensure that some real provisions are put into it so that what legislation we pass in this House may become effective in the country.
  Last week I had a letter from a person in the Lightmoor area saying that rubber was being burnt in an open yard. My correspondent asked what could be done about it. I said that I did not know what could be done. However, if we have a Bill of this nature, the local authority can at once say that such a nuisance must stop, and will be able to take the necessary action against the industrialist.
  There is little point in my labouring the subject any further. I have listened to it being fully discussed. I shall be very glad to give all the assistance I possibly can, now and in the future, in order to make all our industrial areas more pleasant and brighter places in the new Britain.
  8.35 p.m.
  Miss Jennie Lee: Most of our time today has, quite properly, been taken up with the problems of great cities, such as Manchester or London, where both the extent and the intensity of the problem are most felt. I want the House also to consider other areas which are newly scheduled for heavy industry.
  It is sad to go into the heart of a great city and find hanging over the place a pall of smoke which is also a threat to health and well-being. There is another kind of sadness. When we go outside places like Manchester or, speaking of my area, Wolverhampton and Wednesfield, into what ought to be sweet countryside, which is not only important to the people living there but constitutes the lungs, the health and the hope of leisure and play for the people in the most heavily congested industrial areas, we find new factories built there, and they are belching black smoke so that the hedges are burnt up and the mothers, although having green fields around

  1309
  them, have to call their children in from their gardens because they are black from smoke. There is also the question of laundry. We all know the whole story.
  When I first saw the Bill I was dismayed. I was doubly dismayed. I was dismayed because I was directly concerned and generally concerned that so little relief would come to Wednesfield and Wolverhampton and other heavy areas. I was also dismayed because for seven years, and perhaps more, recently established factories will be permitted to cause an unnecessary nuisance in many of the new industrial areas as well.
  The Government having brought in this little mouse of a Bill—and it is to the credit of the Parliamentary Secretary that he should sit on the Front Bench looking not wildly enthusiastic about his offspring—having at least given us this opportunity, I hope that the House of Commons can now step in. The Government propose, but the Members of this House can now dispose, and I feel much more cheerful after having heard the tenor of the discussion today. It has been fine to feel that Members in all parts of the House are trying to address themselves to the problems of health, to the problems of industrial sanity and well-being that lie behind the Bill.
  I hope that when the Bill is considered in Committee it will be possible for hon. Members in all parts not to feel that they have to obey party Whips all the time. Party Whips are important, but there are more important things both in the House and outside. I hope that hon. Members will try to look at the issues on their merits. We are especially obliged to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). He is not always our favourite son, but in this respect he has certainly worked very hard and with great integrity. Anyone who has ever stood up against vested interests will know that it took a great deal of courage on his part this afternoon to say quite bluntly that when he looked at all the escape Clauses in the Bill, when he looked at the seven years before anything can be done—and he knew what he was talking about—his view was the Bill had been framed, not on the merits of the subject, but after a great deal of pressure by the Federation of British Industries.
  1310
  We have the opportunity to put that right. There are some of us who do not pretend that we come to a debate of this kind armed with technical knowledge. That is why it is essential that a Measure should be framed which would aid us as residents, constituents and hon. Members. I have investigated the position in a number of factories in my constituency. We have had the co-operation of the management, the local residents and the local authority. We feel we are getting to the bottom of the problem, we are told everything possible is being done to minimise the nuisance, and then a little later we find that nothing or very little has been done and things are as bad as ever.
  I should like to be able to ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government to send us whenever there is a conflict between the local sanitary inspector and the local works management, an expert, someone who will look into the matter with complete austerity. [An HON. MEMBER: "Austerity?"] Yes austerity. I am not trying to make politics out of this. We should then have an expert view of what is technically possible and we should be advised so that neither hon. Members nor constituents would be unfairly attacking any factory in their area, but if nothing was being done in the light of modern knowledge we would be able to say so. If the factory was not playing the game it could be dealt with.
  It is a sorry business to think in terms of a great many prosecutions against factories being carried out by local authorities. Give me experts who will come to my own area and give us their judgment about what can be done and what has been done, and we will deal with the factory. We shall not have to go to law against a factory, because if that factory is confronted with informed public opinion which has authoritative knowledge on its side, it will have to bow to that public opinion. I think that would be a much saner way of dealing with this matter than if we have to go through complicated, long legal processes. Obviously, the Government cannot give us a Bill like that.
  We call this a Clean Air Bill. Let us also hope that it will be a clean politics Bill, because if it is we shall be able to get rid of some of the unfair pressures upon us. We must remember that we have, on the one hand, the Chancellor's

  1311
  squeeze on local authorities, and, on the other hand, business interests showing anything but enthusiasm for the measures which they will be required to take. I therefore hope that there will be close cooperation between hon. Members representing the heavy industrial areas and those from the countryside, so that everybody will help to improve the health and industrial sanity of this country, and resist the pressures of those who would make this Bill so much less worth while than hon. Members of this House have it in their power to make it.
  8.42 p.m.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Having lived and worked all my life in the worst affected area in the world in regard to air pollution, I cannot approach this problem in the same complacent manner as many others have done.
  I differ fundamentally from the approach of many hon. Members with regard to the alleged incompetence of the Government. I would defend the Government against the charge of incompetence. They are armed with the best legal knowledge that can be tendered to any body of men. They are armed with expert advisers, and with the best draftsmen in the world for framing Bills of this kind. What I do charge the Government with is that they have not framed this Bill in the interests of the people of our country, but have framed it as a result of the desires of the organised employers of this country—the same people who will ruin this country unless this House and the people assert themselves against it.
  Within forty miles of Manchester there is the most polluted area in the world, and the greatest density of population. Does any right hon. or hon. Member of this House doubt that? My greatest wish at this moment is that this Chamber was packed with right hon. and hon. Members, not to hear what I am saying, but to listen to the facts which I have extracted from the Statistical Digest for 1954 issued by the Ministry of Fuel and Power, showing the degree of smoke pollution throughout this country. Within forty miles' radius of where I have lived all my life, there are the people to whom I belong, who are as good as any other people in any other part of the country,
  1312
  who are condemned to live in these deplorable conditions, and look like being condemned to continue to live there for many more years.
  We have not just raised this problem in this House last week or the week before on behalf of the people whose interests we represent; we have been raising it in this House for twenty years. If any hon. Member doubts the figures in the Statistical Digest, he should see HANSARD for 11th July, 1955, columns 140 to 148, where are set out all the facts and figures proving that the Ministry of Fuel and Power's Statistical Digest is correct, and showing scientific recordings of conditions in that area.
  Therefore, representing some of the people who suffer most as a result of asthma, bronchitis and pneumonia, and living myself among them, I would have been a coward if I had not sat here today every minute that was necessary in order to try to catch the eye of Mr. Speaker to give me the opportunity of speaking on behalf of the people I represent. For centuries the people of this area have turned out millions of pounds worth of wealth; yet they are still forced to live, in the mid-twentieth century, in the same conditions in an area in which more scientific development has taken place than in any other part of the country.
  This is the way we are treated. The City of Stoke-on-Trent wanted its own transport system. On 8th February, 1937, the Conservative majority in this House prevented us from getting it. In 1938 the City of Stoke-on-Trent asked my right hon. Friend the late George Tomlinson and myself to submit a Private Bill on mining subsidence. At the end of the day, in our innocence, we were delighted, but the mine owners and their sons finished our Bill in their own Lords, when it went to the other place.
  When the Beaver Report was published we were delighted. We wanted to seize it with both hands, and we said so in this House. We sent letters to prominent people who had assisted in its preparation, so delighted were we. This reflected itself in the municipalities and in the people in our area. But now we get this Bill against which hon. Members on both sides, irrespective of political differences, have built up one of the blackest indictments that I have ever heard built up

  1313
  in this House against a Measure of this kind.
  When we last discussed this subject on 4th February, 1955, the Minister said, as reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT at column 1488, that there would be no avoidable delay and that the Bill would be introduced in that Session. Two months passed and then we had the General Election. There is always something. It is now 10 months since we were promised a Bill to implement the very fine Report which the Beaver Committee prepared. This is the Bill. There is no need for me to indulge in much criticism of it, because from both sides of the House sufficient criticism has been made.
  I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary some questions. If the Minister replies to the debate, I hope that he will say that he will consider them. We know that he cannot be present for the whole of the debate, and I shall be satisfied if the Parliamentary Secretary is good enough to convey my questions to him. The first question is whether he will allow democracy to operate in the Committee. The second is whether he will ask the Minister to use his influence with the Chief Whip not to put the Whips on. In return we will give an undertaking that those of us who are allowed to be members of the Committee will be satisfied if the Committee will consider the facts which we put before it. We will not ask the Committee to accept all we say but we will produce document after document to prove the facts.
  First, we will produce statistics from the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research showing particulars for the whole country. The next document will be the Ministry of Fuel and Power Statistical Digest, and we will produce other Government publications. All we need do is to ask hon. Members to consider them. We will be satisfied if they will consider and suitably reflect upon what has appeared in those publications.
  In 1950 the City of Stoke-on-Trent had an excellent plan prepared for improving that part of the city where the workers live. One of the proposals in the plan was to deal with air pollution. In 1952 we were forced to agree to a public inquiry, which I attended, and where scores of well-paid legal people were present in order to prevent local democracy from operating in that district.
  1314
  It is five years since the plan was prepared and three years and ten months since the public inquiry was held. Yet it is still held up and we are now faced with a Bill of this kind. After the way we have been treated throughout the years of the industrial revolution and after the black indictment which has been built up by the Beaver Committee on this matter, we are now presented with this Bill.
  Had there been time for me to do so I should have quoted from excellent statements made at the public inquiry by our town clerk, who is a public-spirited man trying to reflect the desires of the local people. In statement after statement he pointed out the seriousness of the atmospheric pollution in this area. In the centre of Fenton and Longton I have watched processions of Sunday school children on Sunday afternoons. The boys and girls have appeared spotlessly clean, the girls in white, with their lovely hair. I have seen the black smoke pour out over them, even on a Sunday afternoon.
  In the centre of Fenton and Longton on a Sunday, especially at night, one may see belching smoke pouring out, and therefore one can understand the indignation which is reflected. No man worthy of the name, whether he be a city councillor or a Member of the House of Commons, could fail to be prepared to speak in the manner in which I am speaking now.
  It is true that some improvements have been made, and I am the first to give credit where it is due. But these are the facts. Between the pre-war and post-war periods to 1954, approximately 3 million tons of coal has been saved by more efficient methods in our area, but approximately 400,000 tons of coal is still being consumed by the pottery industry. There are 380,000 tons consumed by the federated employers, and superimposed on that are the non-federated concerns and others, plus the local gas undertaking and the black smoke-polluting tileries, collieries, railways, steelworks, chemical and engineering centres; and then in addition we have the tips caused by the collieries in the area.
  Along the main road between Fenton and Stoke-on-Trent trees were planted some time ago. Not one is growing at the

  1315
  present time. In the centre of my Division is a large farm. Year after year I wrote to various Ministries voicing complaints on behalf of the farmer. Eventually, the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food agreed to make an investigation. The Ministry bought out the farmer and now the farm is being used as a Ministry research centre.
  One can understand the demand for a far better Bill than this. We are appealing for a Bill to deal with the problems from which we have suffered for centuries. We suffer not only from smoke but from chemical fumes, fluorine fumes and fumes from diesel engines.
  I should have liked to continue, but I am satisfied with having had this opportunity of saying a few words. I have made my contribution. My hon. Friend will follow it up with other facts and figures. During the Committee stage I hope that we shall be given other opportunities to make the Bill worthy of 1955.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Boyle: In the minute or two at my disposal I want to make one or two points quickly. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) has made most of the points which I wanted to make in relation to the problem of Salford and the Manchester district. I leave it to the House to decide, from what has been said by my hon. Friend about the area which he represents, whether Salford is the worst area in the country for air pollution.
  The main point I want to make is the one which I tried to make when I interrupted the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon. I am glad that the Minister is present, because I should like to know exactly where we stand in this matter. As I said in my interruption, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Housing and Local Government last week sent a very cynical message to local authorities, impressing upon them the necessity for economy. I am wondering whether it will be possible for them to carry out the provisions even of this miserable Bill in the light of that message.
  I want to know how a local authority like Salford can be compelled to economise and, at the same time, carry out the terms of the Bill. In July, 1952, my local authority made representations
  1316
  to the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor with regard to the establishment of smokeless zones. Those representations were turned down. Circumstances in Salford could have been considerably improved if the local authority had then been allowed to introduce smokeless zones. The reasons given by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor were that there was insufficient smokeless fuel and insufficient steel available to alter the grates in houses. Is the Minister quite satisfied that those two difficulties have now been overcome?
  I want to emphasise what has been said by my hon. Friend about air pollution being a national responsibility. The Bill provides that a local authority shall pay seven-tenths, or may pay the whole, and that the Minister may pay four-sevenths of the seven-tenths or two-fifths of the whole. That is not enough in the circumstances which exist in my constituency.
  People who are compelled to live all their lives in industrial areas are very unfortunate. There is a Lancashire saying that, "Where there's muck there's money." That never applied to the workers; it applied only to the cotton and steel masters. Many other things besides money accompany muck in areas such as that which I represent. The people who live in salubrious and purer areas should share the cost of this improvement, instead of the whole burden devolving upon the people in industrial areas, who have many other problems to face. I wish that I had time to develop these arguments.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) has been very kind in allowing me to speak for a few minutes and I am very grateful to him. The Bill will go to a Committee—and it will be some Committee.
  9.0 p.m.
  Dr. Barnett Stross: I know the Minister will accept that a Bill of this type, however good and well-framed it may be—indeed, even when we have finished with it—still represents a marriage between two principles—that which we desire and that which we can practise. It is a marriage between the desirable and the practicable. Such a marriage of principles, like many marriages, sometimes brings with it a little antagonism.

  1317
  I see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power is in his place, as he has been in his place all day. May I therefore point out an example from my own area of which he is as cognisant as I am and which shows that it is possible to bring about an end of pollution of the atmosphere to a great extent with, as many hon. Members have said, great saving in fuel.
  The City of Stoke-on-Trent consumed, in the pottery industry, in 1938, 850,000 tons of raw bituminous coal a year. Since then we have saved 500,000 tons a year and are now using only 350,000 tons. I give fair notice to those manufacturers in Stoke-on-Trent who are still using raw coal that their colleagues who have turned to alternative methods of firing, gas and electricity, have found it profitable as well as reasonable, while the citizens of Stoke are finding the air so much better and cleaner that unless one knew the city, as we have known it intimately for so many years, it is almost impossible to understand how it has occurred.
  In every possible way, therefore—from the point of view of the conservation of our coal supplies, the achievement of clean air, economy and making higher profits—there is a great deal to be said for a Bill of this kind, if, as hon. Members have said, it has teeth in it and is enforced. As the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) rightly said, if anyone's hand is written heavy in this Bill who has short-sighted or selfish views about it, in the discussion we shall have to erase the marks made.
  I am sure that the Minister will accept that the problem which we are discussing has three aspects. The economic aspect has been discussed, but no one has reminded us of the enormous wastage in money which was pointed out in the Beaver Report—roughly £300 million a year. In other words, over 30 years a sum of £10,000 to £12,000 million is wasted. This expresses the financial loss, but it does not in any way express the degradation and squalor, the pain and disease, associated with it.
  The social aspect has been mentioned fairly fully. I need only say that 30,000 deaths a year from bronchitis alone in this country is too high a figure. It is between 20 and 50 times as high as the figure in the Scandinavian countries. My right
  1318
  hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) was too shy to admit that which she knew—that Warrington has the highest death rate from bronchitis amongst the large cities and large towns. Its death rate is 321 per 100,000 compared with 78 per 100,000 in the rural areas of this country.
  In addition to the incidence of cancer of the lung, bronchitis and emphysema, there is also the aesthetic aspect which I must mention: The corrosion of some of our loveliest historic buildings if they fall within this network of squalor is something we can face no longer. We must have a remedy for this, and the remedy will have to be against sulphur and sulphuric acid rather than against smoke.
  Very strong opinions have been expressed about sulphur, but I thought the evidence given to the Beaver Committee and accepted by most scientists was reasonable, that we do not get sulphuric acid formed unless we have a smoky particle and, in addition to a smoky particle, we must have some water. Then sulphur dioxide and sulphur trioxide gas dissolves into the drop which is corrosive to buildings and deadly to the lungs.
  Mr. Hastings: May I ask my hon. Friend whether there is any experimental evidence for the statement he has just made?
  Dr. Stross: May I put to my hon. Friend in furtherance of what I have said that, in Regent Street on any day when traffic is heavy, he will find that the sulphur dioxide increases in one hour by one part in 200,000—that is five parts per million. In the smog, the great fog of London, it was only 1·3 parts per million, but it was the smog that killed. It is not Regent Street that kills, even if we get this high density of dry gas.
  Mr. Hastings: Ah, dry gas.
  Dr. Stross: That is some evidence that in the Beaver Committee Report there was good commonsense when it said that we did not know yet how to get rid of sulphur, but strong protestations were made about the research which ought to be done about it. We can go on to get rid of smoke. There is this sort of synergism, this unholy marriage, between material particles of water vapour and gas, which causes the acid which bites into the lungs and buildings. On that I

  1319
  think the House is agreed, and beyond that I may agree with my hon. Friend. I hope he will now give me a little peace and let me get on.
  It is not making a party point when I point out that half the working-class population of this country—half the workers, and that means 12 million people —and their families live in these grossly polluted areas, and that the cost to them of smoke pollution has been worked out per family of four at roughly £20 a year for cleaning up the filth that surrounds them and loss of wages through illness from respiratory disease. The Minister has been complimented for being a realist in tackling the housing subsidies, which he declares he will remove. As they affect the houses which are to lose them, they are estimated at £22 a year per house. I wonder if I may say this to the Minister? He will be forgiven more quickly for taking off housing subsidies if he will take very great care to give back the £20 a year which these people also have to lose because they face greater risk of disease and are surrounded by squalor.
  Almost everybody in the House today has pleaded for a small Council of State to consider this Bill in Committee. The hon. Member for Kidderminster laid down his conditions very firmly. I can give him due warning that I am going to support every one of them. Of course there will be a few others from all of us. We must be patient and understand the position of the Minister and put forward first-class arguments. If those arguments really stand up, I am sure the Minister will know exactly how to deal with us and will accept everything reasonable that we put forward.
  I find myself very much in disagreement with some hon. Friends who criticised the Parliamentary Secretary because he introduced this Bill very shortly. I know very well what was in his mind—at least, this is what I think. He knew that there was a Second Reading of what is really this very Bill on 4th February this year, when the hon. Member for Kidderminster introduced his private Bill, which I opposed for reasons which, I know, the hon. Member well understands. Before that—I think, in October, 1954—in the City of London (Various Powers) Bill, we gave directions to the Committee upstairs in order to force a debate, which
  1320
  was very much like this debate. That being so, I was grateful that the Parliamentary Secretary gave the rest of us more time, and I therefore do not blame him.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Perhaps I would not have got in otherwise.
  Dr. Stross: Exactly; my hon. Friend would not have got in otherwise.
  The shortcomings of the Bill have been pointed out very bluntly but sincerely to the Minister and his colleagues. They have all sinned by sins both of omission and of commission. I need hardly point out what they were, but the fact that we are to have a Clean Air Council does whitewash them a little. I hope that the Clean Air Council will co-ordinate research, and particularly that it will initiate new research on the dangers of pollution from vehicles and as to how we can extract sulphur from the fuels that we are using, and research, I hope, on radioactive pollution from carbonaceous matter.
  It was a very serious matter during the great fog. As hon. Members know, the atmosphere of London is examined every day for ionising radiation. During the great fog, the Medical Research Council found that there was a vast increase. This was because constantly one gets the minimal amount of radiation coming from the soil itself; a great deal comes from carbonaceous matter and none of it could get away because of the fog which held it all in. We here in London who had to live through it were breathing in air which was grossly contaminated by ionising radiation.
  If, therefore, we are to have a Clean Air Council to do all that, it will also be able to present to us each and every year an annual report. That will be very important. We give the Minister due notice that the House will never lose its interest in this matter, not in any part of it. If we have a promise of an annual report in the way suggested by Sir Hugh Beaver, I think we shall be content.
  Mr. F. Blackburn: With an annual debate.
  Dr. Stross: Naturally, if there is an annual report.
  Another sin of omission has been dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for

  1321
  Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) under the heading of the plight of the farmers whose soil is blighted and whose pastures are utterly ruined by fluoride and other contaminations. I will list only a few more of the sins. The Minister knows very well that everyone is agreed that there are too many avenues of escape for the industrial offender. He knows too that hon. Members have accused him in the Bill of setting his sights too low.
  We are not happy about remote control by an Alkali Inspectorate. I was very attracted by the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Kidderminster when he said that when the Sanitary Inspectorate is strong, it should be allowed to do it all. The Minister will find that local authorities are demanding that right now. Where there is no inspectorate or it is very weak, and where there is heavy industry, particularly if it emits noxious fumes, we must extend the Alkali Inspectorate or do something similar.
  On the escape clauses, we are all agreed —the Minister has noted it—that paragraph (c) of Clause 1 (3) must go. That is the paragraph dealing with unsuitable fuel. Only the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Farey-Jones) had the courage to get up and show he did not know what he was talking about. Most of the rest of us knew, because the Beaver Committee considered this very carefully, and its words are very clear. I quote one sentence:
  "Although the coal is often blamed we are satisfied that coal quality by itself is rarely the cause of excessive smoke."
  Every engineer says the same thing, too, and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderminster has been saying it for a long time, and we on this side of the House accept it. So the Minister knows that, of course, we shall ask him to drop that one.
  About the other two we shall have some discussion, but, obviously, when firing is going on it cannot be guaranteed that there will not be some dark smoke for the first few minutes. As far as faults and breakdowns of machinery are concerned, we can leave that for discussion in Committee. When I accused the Minister of having fixed his sights too low, I was of course referring partly to the seven years delay, which could very well be three years rather than seven.
  1322
  Then there is the frequent use of the word "practicable" and of such phrases as "practicable steps" and "practicable means." When we study the definition in Clause 28, we discover that the word "practicable" is said to mean
  "…reasonably practicable having regard, amongst other things, to cost and other financial consequences…"
  There is a very serious principle involved in this. We think it is foolish at this stage in our civilisation, in the environment we have created for ourselves by our industry and our mode of living, to say that costs and financial consequences must limit what is practicable when it is a matter of saving life and health. It really is shortsighted; it is out of date, it is out of time. The cost of avoiding pollution of the air is a rightful charge against the profits of any undertaking in this country. That is a principle we want the Minister to accept. We have proved that profits benefit handsomely when we clean the air, the profits made by the manufacturers themselves, and they are in Stoke-on-Trent the keenest advocates now of clean air.
  It was not always so. In the days when Arnold Bennett was a child the air was so polluted in Burslem, which is in the Stoke-on-Trent, North constituency, and the mother of the Five Towns, that one could at midday walk along its streets unseen so often was it black as night.
  I wonder if the Minister will have a fresh look at Clause 5, which is concerned with grit arresting apparatus. We are told here that no furnace is to burn more than 10 tons of fuel an hour, unless it is fitted with plant for arresting grit and dust. Here is a strict provision to prevent grit from being emitted. I have made inquiries and find that of the thousand furnaces in Stoke-on-Trent there is not a furnace that consumes 10 tons of coal per hour. I wonder how many furnaces there are in the country that do. At any rate, we are likely to ask the Minister to turn that 10 tons into five tons when we are in Committee, and give him our reasons.
  The Alkali Inspectorate has been mentioned by many hon. Members, and I think the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary know—they will have received representations—that the local authorities

  1323
  take this problem seriously—that is to say, those local authorities that are seriously affected by this plague—and look upon it as an affront to their own sanitary inspectors that there should be this remote control. In Stoke-on-Trent the sanitary inspectors are extremely capable people, and there they can handle every aspect of industry in our own city. It is unsatisfactory to have to rely on an inspector in Birmingham, in solitary state, who comes along at intervals, but cannot ever come when there is an emergency, and when we have skilled people of our own who are doing the work each and every day. That is why the hon. Member for Kidderminster was quite right in the way he put his claim that the inspectorate in the big cities can handle the whole of this problem without having recourse to the Alkali Inspectorate.
  Moreover, the inspectorate in this country affirm that the metallurgical and other industries do not need the special treatment that is being given to them, and unless we give the technician, the engineer and the inventor fresh scope, we shall never get rid of this problem. If we are careful with the Bill, if we show that we mean business by the time the Bill is enacted, then indeed the inventor, the engineer, the technician and the scientist will solve the problems for industry as easily as they were solved for us in the Potteries in the remarkable changeover that we have experienced.
  There are penalties in the Bill. They seem very high for a householder at £10 and extremely low for the industrialists, who might well be the Central Electricity Authority, the Gas Board, the National Coal Board, I.C.I. or some other enormously rich concern. I know that the Minister will not expect us to pass that provision by without a little discussion, and I am sure that we shall be able to have a full exchange of views in Committee.
  We have all enjoyed the debate enormously. All of us know that we are going to improve the Bill, and all of us know that this is the first of many Bills over the next 100 years. To be in today at the beginning has been a very remarkable experience for me and, I am sure, for everybody who has participated in the debate. This is the beginning of
  1324
  something very big. We must make sure that it does not start in a faulty fashion. We must make quite certain that the country knows that we mean business in this matter and that we shall not neglect or betray the people.
  Those who have flown the flag for us in this matter, organisations like the National Smoke Abatement Society, have put us all in their debt. We all know in the House that legislation is not everything and that we must have education and agitation. The organisations that have helped to educate us and who have agitated for so long have done something for which we are all grateful. If we succeed in doing almost everything that has been suggested today, I am sure that the Minister will be proud of his child.
  The Clerk-Assistant at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. SPEAKER from the remainder of this day's Sitting.
  Whereupon Sir CHARLES MACANDREW, The CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS, took the Chair as DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  9.24 p.m.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I was a little surprised at the last remark of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) when he said that I would be proud of this child. I am sure that I shall be very proud of it, but I should not have thought so if I had judged from the speeches made during the debate today. The hon. Member also said that everybody had enjoyed the debate. I think that that is quite true. A good time has been had by all.
  First, I should like to say how much I thought the whole House appreciated the very sincere and colourful speech of the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill). We all appreciate the knowledge with which she spoke, and also the great sincerity with which she put forward a cause which is of importance to the whole country and is of particular importance to areas such as the one the right hon. Lady represents in the House.
  We are all united in our desire to make progress in this respect. The right hon. Lady described the Bill as a big step forward, a great social reform, and it is in that spirit that we approach our

  1325
  task. There is certainly no difference of opinion about the desirability of this policy. 'There is general agreement on both sides of the House upon the objective of clean air, and the enthusiasm for it which was demonstrated today reflects the widespread interest and support which I believe exists in the country.
  Perhaps the right hon. Lady was a little unfair to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary when she accused him of advocating a "go slow" policy and criticised the tone of his speech. As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central said, in winding up for the Opposition, we regard this as the second review. We have already had one debate—I do not know whether the right hon. Lady took part in it—on this subject when the background of the picture was fully set out. That is why I thought my hon. Friend was right on this occasion in not concentrating on the general background, which had been thoroughly set out in a most admirable speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). We thought that the important thing was to set before the House the provisions of the Bill as clearly and concisely as possible. Like all so-called agreed Measures, this Bill has been hotly debated today. I only hope that I shall have an easier passage when I introduce the Housing Subsidies Bill shortly.
  A lot has been said about loopholes and escape clauses and about the use of the word "practicable." I ask the House to believe me when I say that I do not want, any more than any other hon. Member wants, what I might term, though it is a very mixed metaphor, "watered-down clean air." What we all want is a Measure which will be effective and workable and which will achieve results as quickly as possible. It is in that spirit that we have put forward this Measure. We have taken an immense amount of time and pains in considering the precise form of every Clause I have spent hours and hours myself in working on this Bill. We have had numerous consultations with all who may be concerned with this problem.
  I would say to hon. Members, however, that is does not serve the purpose which we all have in mind to ask people to do something that is not practicable. By all means, if hon. Members wish, let us look at the definition of that word
  1326
  during the Committee stage, but it is not the slightest use to ask people to do something that is not practicable. All we should do would be to kill the whole policy if we produced a Bill which was so difficult to carry out that in practice the administration would have to allow evasions of various kinds if the whole thing was not to make nonsense.
  Our intention—it still remains our intention, and I am prepared to consider any advice and proposals which may be offered in Committee—is to make the Bill as effective, tight and strong as possible consistent with what is practicable. I believe that is the intention and desire of hon. Members in all parts of the House. If we start with that objective, I think we can discuss calmly in Committee whether it is practicable to go further than we have suggested in the Bill. My present information is that we have gone as far as practicable, but let us by all means discuss any further extensions or the removal of any qualifications which have been included in the Bill. I ask hon. Members to accept that my intention and purpose, and the purpose of the Government, is precisely the same as that voiced in so many eloquent speeches during today's debate.
  We have been criticised for not including in the Bill a statement that clean air is a national policy. I take no exception to such criticism, but I should have thought that the fact that a Bill was being passed by Parliament to provide powers and finance for the promotion of the object of clean air was in itself clear, conclusive evidence that Parliament and the nation were anxious and determined to promote clean air as a national policy. Nevertheless, if importance is really attached to the point, I am prepared in Committee to examine the possibility of including some general introductory Clause such as has been suggested, though I do not think it will' add anything to the Bill. I have no doubt that I shall get into trouble with my hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke), who complained that an Act of Parliament was not a medium for propaganda. However, let us hear the issue debated in Committee. I assure hon. Members that I shall approach it with a completely open mind.
  A great deal has been said about the provision in Clause 2 for a seven-year period—the right hon. Lady and other

  1327
  hon. Members criticised it—during which existing furnaces may be temporarily exempted from the prohibition on dark smoke. Having listened to the speeches, I think it is generally recognised that some period must be allowed for industry to modify its equipment in cases where existing equipment is not capable of functioning without producing dark smoke. The criticism, as I understood it, was that seven years was too long for this purpose. My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster urged that it should be reduced to three years. He said that industrialists had "got at" me and induced me to raise to seven years the three-year period provided in his Bill.
  With all respect to my hon. Friend, I would draw his attention to the fact that the proposal originated not in his Bill but in the Beaver Committee Report.
  Dr. Stross: In the Beaver Report the period was from the enactment of the Measure and not, as is suggested in the Bill, from the appointed day.
  Mr. Sandys: If we can agree on that, I am prepared to make the appointed day for this purpose to be the day after the passing of the Bill. So there would be only a day difference between us. It would take that time to bring in the Order, so we can probably agree on that.
  Then there was a good deal of discussion about the defence which is provided for unsuitable fuel; that is to say, it should be a defence in the event of a prosecution to be able to show that suitable fuel was unobtainable. That seems to be eminently reasonable but it has been argued that unsuitable fuel can still be burned without making smoke.
  Mr. Hobson: Nonsense.
  Mr. Sandys: I am advised that that is not correct. I am not an expert on these matters, but I am advised that even with efficient stoking and the most modern plant, it may not always be possible to avoid the emission of dark smoke, if unsuitable fuel has to be used.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: It could be minimised.
  Mr. Sandys: We are not talking about minimising at the moment. Almost any type of hand-fired furnace would inevitably produce some dark smoke when
  1328
  burning slack containing a high proportion of fine coal—and not only hand-fired furnaces. If that were so, one might consider making it necessary to introduce mechanical stokers, but I am advised that certain types of mechanical stokers will also produce some dark smoke if highly-caking, volatile coals have to be used.
  I should like to point out to the House, and it seems to have escaped notice during the debate, that Clause 1 (3) (c) applies only if it is proved that dark smoke from the unsuitable fuel could not have been prevented. In other words, the fact that suitable fuel was not available is not by itself a defence. What has to be shown is that suitable fuel was not available and that everything possible was done with the unsuitable fuel to avoid the emission of dark smoke. It is very difficult to say whether one ought to impose a penalty on somebody who used the best fuel available and took all possible measures to avoid the emission of dark smoke.
  Mr. Nabarro: In the circumstances would my right hon. Friend consider a compromise which I think is ingenious? I did not invent it, technicians invented it and it was embodied in the Private Member's Bill to which he referred; namely, to define the maximum volatile content of the particular fuel used, the effect of which would be very greatly to narrow the avenue of escape as a defence under this provision.
  Mr. Sandys: If it is desired slightly to narrow the loophole, I will certainly consider that, but it would be better to raise that point during the Committee stage.
  Mr. Hobson Mr. Hobson rose—
  Mr. Sandys: I have a large number of points to answer, and I should like to answer as many as I can.
  Several hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) and the hon. Member for Ardwick (Mr. L. M. Lever), spoke about the position of Manchester and of other towns which have introduced smokeless zones by local Acts. The hon. Member for Ardwick said that we should go the whole hog, like Manchester—those were his words. I was in Manchester the other

  1329
  day, and I went up to the top of one building to have a look at the effect of the smokeless zones.
  Mr. Royle: There is still some smoke there.
  Mr. Sandys: There was some coming up at that moment, unfortunately. None the less, the effect was very marked and very impressive. One could see a very clear sky when one looked up from this inner area, and could see a great deal of haze all round.
  Mr. W. R. Williams: May I ask the Minister a question about this, because it is most important? We in Manchester are very proud of our smokeless zones, but my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) has seriously disturbed our minds—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—in regard to the efficacy of smokeless zones. In effect, what he said was that they could be a trap, and could be worse than our being without them. My hon. Friend said that they could be worse for the simple reason that the sulphuric content is still there, while there is no visible sign of smoke. I should like the Minister to say something about that.
  Mr. Sandys: I do not want to go into rather difficult technical points. I am advised that that is not correct, but I could not possibly go into it now.
  Mr. Hobson: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene? This is an important point. I made a very categorical statement, while the Minister replied with another which was equally categorical. I am asking the Minister if he can give any proof whatever that immediately we stop black smoke from issuing, we are not burning a fuel with a higher sulphur content, as in the case of coke, for instance, or an anthracite fuel, and which, further, contains considerably more carbon monoxide gas, which is even more deadly.
  Mr. Sandys: I am not an expert, and if I am wrong, I would ask the House to forgive me, but I am advised that coke emits the same amount, or roughly the same amount, of sulphur as the same quantity of coal—
  Mr. Hobson: But not of carbon monoxide.
  Mr. Sandys: —but since we get the same amount of heat from a smaller quantity of coke, the quantity of sulphur emitted is smaller. I may be wrong, but this is such knowledge of the subject as I have been able to acquire in the course of the debate.
  Mr. Nabarro: Very sound indeed.
  Mr. Sandys: We are all agreed that Manchester has been one of the most successful and outstanding pioneers of the clean air policy, and so have certain other cities. I can, as the point has been raised, assure the City of Manchester, and other cities which have established smokeless zones, that nothing in this Bill will undo what they have achieved.
  It has been suggested that the smoke-control areas provided for in this Bill will be less effective than the existing smokeless zones which have been established in certain cities, and less effective than the smokeless zones envisaged in the Beaver Report. That is quite incorrect. Under the Bill, a local authority can establish a smoke-control area, in which all smoke of every kind from any premises is completely prohibited. That is made perfectly clear in the Bill.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: Does that apply where there are factories in the area which have been exempted as scheduled processes?
  Mr. Sandys: Perhaps the hon. Member is right; there is just that one limitation.
  I am trying to make it quite clear that the smoke control areas provided for in the Bill can be every bit as effective as smokeless zones already provided or smokeless zones as envisaged in the Beaver Report. The local authorities may, if they wish, grant such exemptions as they think fit, just as they can do now under their own local Acts, and there is no difference there.
  Anxiety has also been expressed about the proviso to Clause 8 (2), which lays down that it shall be a defence to say that nothing but an authorised fuel was being used. That is a point that worries Manchester, and there was something about it in the "Manchester Guardian" today. I assure the House that it is not the intention of the Government to authorise for this purpose any fuels that are not smokeless.

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  I have been asked questions about the future of local Acts. We are not contemplating any wholesale repeal of local legislation. However, some local authorities may find it convenient to have their local Acts repealed, and to operate in future under this Bill, which provides financial assistance which is not otherwise available. I can give this assurance. We should not, of course, propose to repeal any local Act except after full consultation with the local authority concerned.
  The hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings), the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington and others, spoke about other forms of pollution. In particular, the hon. Member for Barking dealt with the medical aspects of the problem, and referred to the serious effects upon health of sulphur and other fumes. We all recognise the seriousness of this problem but, unhappily there is no complete answer to it as yet. We must accept that fact for the moment. As the Beaver Report stated quite bluntly, there is no known method and no present prospect of eliminating the greater part of the sulphur which is discharged from industrial and domestic chimneys.
  I was asked about research. Research into the problem is being energetically pursued by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and various other research organisations. The Central Electricity Authority is at present constructing a full-scale pilot plant for carrying out extensive trials at a power station. I have with me a long list of the various research projects which are going on, but I am afraid that I cannot assure my hon. Friend the Member for Darwen that it includes experiments for the creation of artificial wind.
  Several hon. Members have asked about the position of the alkali inspectors and there has been a certain amount of difference of opinion on that subject. The hon. Members for Brightside (Mr. R. E. Winterbottom), Willesden, East (Mr. Orbach) and Kidderminster urged that their functions should be transferred, as far as possible, to local authorities. Other hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Storey), took the opposite view.
  I think we must recognise that very few local authorities would be able to
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  take over these functions. They would find it almost impossible to recruit technically qualified staffs. In any case, the Government will have to increase—and probably double, from ten to twenty—the number of alkali inspectors. These inspectors are very rare birds. Whatever hon. Members may say, this will not be at all easy, but it would be very much more difficult if local authorities generally were also competing for the very few available experts.
  Mr. A. Blenkinsop: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has any proposals for increasing the number of sanitary inspectors and possibly of less qualified workers who might help them to do the work in connection with inspection?
  Mr. Sandys: I shall be happy to try to say something about that on another occasion, but I cannot do so now.
  I should like to say something about cement. Cement works were scheduled under the Alkali, &c., Works Regulation Act, in 1935. Since then dust-arresting plant costing about £2 million has been installed in these works, and I am advised that the equipment is now catching about half a million tons of dust a year which would otherwise be discharged into the air. It may interest the House to know that I have been informed today that those responsible for the only cement works in the Thames-side area which is not already equipped with electrostatic precipitators—I am referring to the Bevan's works—have now decided to install this equipment at a cost of possibly £250,000. I think that news will be welcomed by all hon. Members interested in the subject.
  I was also asked about the various appointed days under the Bill. Separate appointed days can be fixed for the various provisions in the Bill. I have in mind to bring into force Clauses 8 to 11, which provide for the creation of smoke-control areas, within a few months of the passing of the Bill. As I said earlier, I propose to bring Clause 2 into force immediately after the passing of the Bill. Clause 2 lays down the seven-year period during which temporary exemptions to furnaces may be granted.
  We all feel, and I hope that what I have said this evening makes it clear—
  Mr. Hobson: No.
  Mr. Sandys: I do not include the hon. Member because he regards this as a premature Bill—
  Mr. Hobson: The Minister is not answering the debate.
  Mr. Sandys: It is absurd to say that I am not answering. I am taking one point after the other. I have scarcely said anything else. I know that the hon. Member for Keighley is out of sympathy with the policy, but I think that he is also out of sympathy with the majority of hon. Members in the House.
  I think that we are all united in our determination to eradicate what is a great social and economic evil; what is a menace to the health of our people and a source of disgraceful waste and destruction. Together I hope that we may, during the Committee stage, do what we can to improve this Bill, and make it an effective instrument to achieve a common purpose of great national importance. I can assure the House that I shall consider sympathetically any Amendments likely to advance this great national cause in which we all believe and which we all sincerely wish to serve.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: I wish to put a point to the Minister. I have here the list of non-scheduled and scheduled works in connection with cement. The point is that here the unscheduled cement works are
  "works in which aluminous deposits are treated for the purpose of making cement."
  They are excluded from the Bill, and only certain parts of the cement industry are included.
  Mr. Blackburn: This Bill will mean an alteration in the equalisation grants. Does not the Minister think it all the more important that there should be a change in the payment of those grants, that they should be made to district councils and not county councils? It seems very unfair that the urban areas in my constituency should help to subsidise the rural areas in the pleasant parts of Cheshire.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

CLEAN AIR [MONEY]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees)
[Queen's recommendation signified].
[Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for abating the pollution of the air, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

(a) of the following contributions to expenses of any local authority, that is to say—

(i) four-sevenths of the approved expenses of the authority in making repayments of seven-tenths of the expenses, on adaptations to avoid contraventions of the provisions of the said Act relating to areas declared thereunder to be smoke control areas, of owners or occupiers of, or other persons interested in, private dwellings which are not new dwellings;

(ii) two-fifths of the approved expenses of the authority in making, in or in connection with private dwellings owned by them or under their control not being new dwellings, adaptations to avoid such contraventions as aforesaid; and

(iii) two-fifths of the approved expenses of the authority in carrying out, in or in connection with private dwellings which are not new dwellings, any such adaptations as aforesaid which have been required by notices served by them under the said provisions of the said Act;

(b) any administrative expenses incurred under the said Act by the Minister of Housing and Local Government or the Secretary of State; and

(c) any increase attributable to the said Act in the moneys to be provided by Parliament under Part I of the Local Government Act, 1948, or the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1954.

In this Resolution "approved" means approved by the said Minister or the Secretary of State.—[Mr. Sandys.]
9.55 p.m.
Mr. Ellis Smith: I want to ask one or two questions with a view to getting an undertaking from the Minister before the Bill reaches the Committee stage. We have had experiences of the difficulties which arise during the Committee stage once we release a Money Resolution of this character. If I remember correctly, a Select Committee which met some time ago further tightened up the Money Resolution. My hon. Friends and I have been very satisfied with the way that the Minister has dealt with the matter in

1335
winding up, and we were also pleased with the assurances he gave in regard to our proceedings in Committee.
My question is this: if expenditure is to be increased as a result of democracy operating in the Committee—and we shall be good allies of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) in his suggested Amendment—will the Minister be prepared to deal sympathetically with Amendments even if they increase the financial cost?
Mr. Sandys: I always believe in being sympathetic, but I do not like to give assurances in advance.
Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: Will the Minister tell us whether the Money Resolution provides for an adequate supply of alkali inspectors? If commonsense does not prevail during the Committee stage and we so amend the Bill as to allow local authorities to do the job with the experts they have, in view of the fact that they can co-operate, as the law at present allows them to do, in terms of regionalisation, is sufficient money provided by the Bill to allow for the huge expansion required in the alkali inspectorate in order that they can do the job in regard to the scheduled industries under the Alkali &c., Works Regulation Act?
Mr. Hobson: I have read the Financial Resolution very carefully, and I fail to see how adequate money will be provided for the purposes of the Bill. It is no good the Committee having a Financial Resolution before it if we are to have no assurances on this matter. I am told that the sum has been arrived at. It is all very well having paragraph after paragraph about the local authority contribution, but that is not in question. That is easy to calculate. It can be calculated upon the basis of grants already paid, and also upon the basis of the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Brightside (Mr. R. E. Winterbottom) with regard to the Alkali Inspectorate, but the Bill goes much further. The Bill states that further inspectors are to be appointed. These inspectors will have to be qualified people.
The Chairman: The hon. Member is raising a Second Reading point. We are now discussing the Money Resolution.
Mr. Hobson: I am concerned whether the necessary money has been provided. The Bill says that further inspectors must be appointed.
Mr. Sandys: In paragraph 6 of the Financial Memorandum, the hon. Member will see that
"Expenditure on this account may ultimately amount to some £40,000 per annum."
That is all administrative expenditure, which includes the hon. Member's point. I hope that he will allow us to pass the Financial Resolution before 10 o'clock.
Mr. Hobson: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has raised that point, because it is most important. It means employing 40 men at £1,000 a year, or 80 men at £500 a year. We shall not get a man to do this job at £500 a year—and 80 men would not be sufficient anyway. The minimum salary commensurate with the duties, responsibilities and technical qualifications required would be £1,000 a year, because sanitary inspectors are not capable of dealing with the matter. We have been given no assurance whatever that the Financial Resolution will provide sufficient money to cover this increased inspectorate. The right hon. Gentleman's reply now is just as ineffective as was his reply to the debate. He did not answer any of the points raised then, and he has not now. It is a matter of good grace that I resume my seat now.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section I of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Northwich [copy laid before the House, 27th October], approved.—Sir H. Lucas-Tooth.]
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Stowmarket [copy laid before the House, 27th October], approved.—Sir H. Lucas-Tooth.]

LAND, RIDDLESDOWN (USE)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
10.2 p.m.
Mr. Charles Doughty: I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of Housing and Local Government and of his Parliamentary Secretary to the sanction given for the removal of Green Belt land near London. The place concerned is Riddlesdown, in the county of Surrey, and the strip of land is between two built-up areas. This land is much used by people living in the locality, as well as by others coming from the district, and from Croydon and London, too, and the preservation of it as a public open space is most important. Great efforts have been made by the local council so that the land can be kept for local people and others to use at weekends and other times as a public open space.
In making the Order, I do not think the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary could have had any idea of the land with which they were dealing. If they like at any time to come there, I shall be only too pleased to show them how close it is to built-up areas and what a boon it is to local and other people to have this open space in the locality. Having read the decision of the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary, I have no hesitation in saying that they have not the faintest idea of the nature of the land concerning which they are making this Order.
The area concerned is approximately nine acres, plus a further two acres which were acquired by the council in 1937. It is in the neighbourhood of a chalk quarry which, until recently, was quite a small affair. It would not be inaccurate to describe it as a one-man affair, and it was therefore no great trouble or nuisance to the neighbourhood. A very few years ago—only three or four years—a fresh company acquired the site and work proceeded not as a one-man affair but as a whole-time affair, night and day, and on the maximum possible scale. The result in the locality was to create dust, dirt and noise, all of which was very objectionable.
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That in itself would have been sufficient ground for ceasing the activity and transferring the chalk-producing efforts elsewhere, but another result of these extended activities has been that the quarry is now practically worked out. Instead of looking for a fresh quarry elsewhere, the company which owns it has the temerity to propose extending its operations into and physically removing no less than approximately 11 acres of Green Belt land. The area concerned is about nine acres belonging to the quarry company and two acres which belong not to them but to the Coulsdon and Purley Urban District Council. I have a great deal more to say to the Parliamentary Secretary about those two acres.
Need I say that the Coulsdon and Purley Urban District Council, as planning authority, did what any planning authority should do in these circumstances—refused permission for the physical removal of Green Belt land in this way. I have no hesitation in saying that I am quite sure that that refusal was right. The quarry owners, as they were entitled to do, appealed to the Minister. Those living near—there are a large number of them—and interested in this matter, all hoped that the Minister would uphold the planning authority. I also made representations to the Minister, which I hoped he would at any rate consider before coming to this wholly incorrect decision.
The inquiry was held, and perhaps I might digress slightly by saying that this inquiry, like all others of this kind, was of the most unsatisfactory nature, in that no report by the person conducting the inquiry is available, there is no right of appeal on the facts, and one does not know, but one has a very good reason to believe—from the evidence at the inquiry and the finding of the Minister—that the two findings had very little to do with each other. It is high time that this type of inquiry was fully inquired into. I am glad to see that a committee has been nominated to inquire into this form of inquiry. I hope its report will be that it is time this form of inquiry was stopped.
The people who knew the appeal had been made to the Minister naturally had confidence that he would uphold the position of the Green Belt, the position

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of those who have worked hard to maintain the Green Belt around London. One of the reasons why they held that view is because of one of the Written Answers given by the Minister to an hon. Member who had put a Question, and the written reply was given on 26th April this year—as recently as that. In that reply the Minister said:
"I am convinced that, for the well-being of our people and for the preservation of the countryside, we have a clear duty to do all we can to prevent the further unrestricted sprawl of the great cities.
The development plan submitted by the local planning authorities for the Home Counties provides for a Green Belt, 7 to 10 miles deep, all around the built-up area of Greater London. Apart from some rounding off of existing small towns and villages no further urban expansion is to be allowed within this belt. These proposals, if strictly adhered to, should prove most effective. For this the authorities in the Home Counties deserve much credit."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 26th April, 1955: Vol. 540. c. 45.]
The Minister did not add to that statement that in a few months he was going to sanction the physical removal of no fewer than 11 acres of this important land for industrial purposes; he should have added that in order that the full effects might have been before the House. This is the first time that statement has been read to the House, and it is just as well that the House should know what the Minister said in writing then. Contrary to his declared intention, the Minister granted permission for the Green Belt to be physically removed, not only in respect of nine acres belonging to the appellants, but also of the two acres not belonging to them but to the Coulsdon and Purley Urban District Council, who were opponents of the scheme.
There are people detained in Dartmoor who are quarrying for disposing of other people's property, and they may have what they think were valid reasons for doing so. These two acres were acquired by the council in 1937 with the restriction that they were not to be allowed to be developed except as Green Belt land. London County Council and Surrey County Council contributed to the purchase price of those two acres which are vital to the whole scheme because they lie across the path of the quarry owners.
Let us turn to the decision the Minister has made which can be shot through in every single paragraph. He pays lip
1340
service to the annoyance caused to the people in the locality and says:
"the existence of the quarry and lime works in this area is unfortunate, and he appreciates that the quarrying and processing activities must eventually be a source of some annoyance and disturance to the local residents."
That is a gross under-statement; that goes on night and day and covers the locality with dust and noise and difficulties, yet the Minister dismisses it with these few trumpery words. He then goes on to say that the fixed plant and machinery is there and that
"to close it down now would lead not only to a serious reduction in the supply of lime to the building industry over a wide area, but also to a waste of capital resources."
It simply is not true. That capital plant was put there by the quarry owners at the time when they knew that very soon their quarry would be worked out. It can easily be removed to other premises and it is quite untrue to say that any hardship would be caused to anybody by forcing them to move elsewhere.
Then, the Minister refers to the loss of lime to the building industry. Of course, we want to maintain the supply of lime to the building industry, but the whole of the North and South Downs are composed of chalk and the quarry people should be told to open a quarry elsewhere and supply just as much, if not more, lime to the building industry. If in the interim they require facilities, nobody would be more anxious than myself to assist the Minister in arranging them. But my right hon. Friend has ignored that and has said that the quarry can continue, not for thirty years, but for nearly fifty years. The eleven acres to which he has referred involves fifty years and not thirty years as he said in his report, which allows the quarry owners to go into land belonging to Caterham and Warlingham in respect of which the quarry has planning consent.
One of the worst parts of the report, in which it is not accurate in law or on fact, is the paragraph dealing with the two acres which belong not to the quarry company or to the Minister, but to one of the objectors, the Coulsdon and Purley Urban District Council. The Minister says:
"Having reached these conclusions on the planning issues put before him, the Minister nevertheless recognises that the actual development of the land in respect of which he now grants planning permission depends on whether the company can obtain the right to work the

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small connecting strip of open-space land. The view on this point of the local authorities concerned is likely to depend on whether arrangements can be made for an exchange of land which they, as the authorities primarily responsible for safeguarding the amenities of the area, will consider to permit of a satisfactory alternative connection, appropriately rounded off, between the two larger areas of open space. If such an arrangement can be made the Minister would be prepared to accept it for the purposes of any consent required of him whether under Sections 5 or 15 of the Green Belt (London and Home Counties) Act, 1938, or otherwise, provided satisfactory provision can be made for a footpath linking up the green-belt areas on either side of the quarry."
The Minister never looked at the Act when he wrote that. Is he aware that under the Green Belt (London and Home Counties) Act, 1938, a copy of which I hold in my hand, before he gives consent he must ask for the objections of anybody who has contributed to the purchase price of the land? The London County Council and the Surrey County Council are the bodies concerned. The Minister has given his consent at a time when he had no power to do so. He has given it before hearing the views of those whom he is obliged by law to hear. If any judge were to do that, he would soon be removed by resolution of both Houses of Parliament. In that, therefore, the Minister is completely wrong in law and has exceeded his powers in giving consent before fulfilling his statutory duties.
The letter goes on to say:
"The compulsory purchase order under which this land was purchased contained a provision prohibiting the acquiring authority from selling or laying out and developing the land subject to the order.…"
It was never acquired under a compulsory purchase order. The Minister has not even bothered to find out the facts. The land was acquired by private treaty under covenants in which the vendor and the purchasers and those who provided the land covenanted that it would not be used without the written consent of the Surrey County Council and the London County Council previously had and obtained that it should be used for parks and open spaces. I do not have time to read the whole of the covenants. The Minister's facts, therefore, are not right.
An eminent legal gentleman whose opinion has been taken by the council has described any transfer of the land as being sharp practice. It therefore is not necessary for me tonight to point out that
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the Minister's advice that a suitable exchange of the land would be prohibited by that provision does not apply, because the provision does not apply. If it had applied, he had no business to take the decision which he did.
On the face of it, the decision is bad. It is wholly inaccurate to say that the supply of lime would be affected. It is the duty of the quarry owners to seek their chalk elsewhere. There is no suggestion in the decision that there was to be found any difficulty about this. It is a completely wrong decision.
The date of the decision, 11th August this year, may, perhaps, give us a clue to the matter. I see that the decision is not signed by either the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary. I know that at that time the Parliamentary Secretary was, unfortunately, indisposed. We are glad to see him back and looking so well tonight. The Minister himself, perhaps, was away on a well-deserved holiday at that time. Neither looked at the decision before it was made. If they had, I can be quite certain they would not have agreed to this Green Belt land being removed in the way in which it was.
I ask the Parliamentary Secretary now, in the few minutes remaining to him, to give at least this undertaking, first, that he will look at this matter again, if necessary in consultation with me, and I will point out to him that his facts in this decision are completely wrong and that his law does not begin to comply with the requirements of any of the Acts to which he refers. So far as the decision in general is concerned, it makes a travesty of the statement made to this House that the Minister intends to maintain the Green Belt.
If, however, my hon. Friend maintains his position, if he says, "This is my story and I stick to it," then I ask him to give the undertaking here and now that he will bring no pressure to bear upon the owners of these two areas who are to be deprived of this land or upon the Coulsdon Purley Urban District Council, and that under the Surrey Development Plan which, I know, he has in draft before him now, in which the land is described, as it should be, as Green Belt land, he will not go behind other people's backs and describe it as land ripe for mineral purposes or any designation of that kind.

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If he does do either of those things I can promise him that he and the Minister will have to answer in this House for it, and answer for it at very short notice.
10.17 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): This debate would be facilitated if we could spread a map out between us to see exactly what is at stake. Unfortunately, that is an arrangement which is precluded here, and I must do my best to give my version of this story without a map, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) had to do. My hon. and learned Friend has fought a very stiff battle over this ground, and I do not underrate in the least the strength of local feeling about it, nor his own, but he must not underrate either the consideration which we for our part gave before this decision was taken.
He says that neither my right hon. Friend nor I had the faintest idea of the land before the decision was given. That, frankly, is nonsense. A great deal of care was taken over this decision, and I shall now mention some of the considerations, not all of which were referred to by my hon. and learned Friend, which led to the decision which was eventually taken not a clear-cut one, not an easy one. I do not pretend it was.
Chalk has been worked on this site for a great number of years, probably in a very small way for most of the time. In 1946 there was installed a great deal of the present plant in an extensive programme of modernisation and re-equipment, and in 1951—I ask my hon. and learned Friend to take note of this—planning permission was obtained from the neighbouring council for acquiring land immediately to the east, the intention then being that it should be approached by a tunnel under the intervening open space land.
That could not be carried out. In 1952 the whole undertaking was taken over by Associated Portland Cement Manufacturers, Ltd., who maintained that the tunnel was impracticable and wanted permission instead to approach the existing face by way of a north-easterly direction, through the open space directly into the
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area to which my hon. Friend has been referring. That application was refused.
The company appealed, and the local inquiry was held.
The objection to this proposal was that it involved interference with a public open space, and the authority contended —it is fair to say this—that the narrow strip, although only about two acres, was vital as a connecting link between the open space area to the north and the other. While the authorities seemed to recognise that some further land would have to be worked, what they insisted on was that access to it should be by a tunnel so as to preserve the continuity of the open space. I think that they were reconciled to a very large-scale development of this kind, but not in the area under consideration. The district council and the local residents, of course, complained, no doubt not without cause, of the noise and the dust and the depreciation of values and so on.
The company's case was that it would have to work further land unless its machinery and plant, said to be worth £300,000, was to be rendered valueless. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East has made very light of the company's production, but it produces about 30,000 tons of hydrated lime a year, or very nearly enough to supply the London area, which requires about 35,000 tons, and that cannot be dismissed lightly. The company says that the tunnel was out of the question because of the cost of making it and the communicating shaft that would be required, and because of the double-handling that would be necessary between the two halves of the works.
I accept that it is possibly regrettable that this quarry ever developed from a small pit into one of the largest undertakings of the kind in the London area, but those circumstances came about before the inquiry about which my hon. and learned Friend feels so strongly. What weighed with us was that, in view of the importance of the works, some further extension of the quarrying area would have to be permitted. The company's reason for saying that the tunnelling would be impracticable seemed to us to be, on the whole, sound.
Therefore the alternatives left were either to let the company work as it suggested, that is, the present working

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face advancing into the hillside, or to give permission for an open cut eastwards into the land for which the planning authority had already granted planning permission. I stress the point that permission had already been given to the east. We thought the former course was preferable. It had the advantage of keeping the work fairly compact and leaving the appearance of the quarry face very much as it is now. It was recognised that the open space strip to which my hon. and learned Friend has made several references would be destroyed in the process, but the chief merit of this particular land is that of a connecting link.
There was some talk of letting the company make a narrow cut through the open space strip and spanning it with a footbridge. That was considered but was rejected because of the cost. It was decided finally, after further consideration, that permission should be given for about eleven acres of the appeal site, giving the company enough raw material for thirty years—not fifty years.
Mr. Doughty: My hon. Friend appreciates, of course, that the opening that he has given into the Green Belt gives access to another piece of land which would make it enough for fifty years.
Mr. Deedes: I am prepared to discuss that matter again with my hon. and learned Friend but, with respect, I am holding to my figure of thirty years. He knows, as well as I do, that the Minister has no further jurisdiction on the appeal.
Several appeals are made to the Parliamentary Secretary in debates on the Adjournment at this hour of the night, but it must be well known to my hon. and learned Friend, experienced as he is in these matters, that the Minister has no further jurisdiction. Permission can be revoked or modified, but to do that would require compiling new evidence, and I know that my hon. and learned Friend is aware of that.
I tackle next the point that my hon. and learned Friend makes about the Green Belt and the whole question of open land. I maintain that what has been done is in no way inconsistent with the policy which my right hon. Friend laid down recently in relation to the Green Belt. The modern conception of a Green Belt is an extensive area of open countryside, its object being to provide
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not merely publicly-owned walks and pleasure grounds, but a broad buffer between towns, a barrier against urban sprawl and haphazard encroachments of house and factory building into the countryside, generally as ribbon development.
Quarrying is not necessarily out of suggested Amendment—will the Minister learned Friend smiles, but he himself suggested earlier, and in a letter to myself, that an alternative to this quarry would be the North or the South Downs. As a resident in the area of the South Downs I take issue with him about that suggestion. Most quarries are situated in rural areas, and the crux of this case was that it would involve the destruction not of the Green Belt in its wider sense but of public open space and the interference with the amenities not of a rural but of a residential area. The strongest thing that could be said against this was the disturbance to a residential area. Therefore I say that, without making too much play about this intervening piece of land, nothing in this decision is incompatible with the declared policy of the Minister on the Green Belt.
I think that the works are admittedly undesirable in such a locality but to close them down at the point they have now reached would cause not only serious disruption but tremendous wastage of most expensive plant.
Mr. Doughty: The really serious point is that it is disposing of other people's property. Will my hon. Friend deal with that point?
Mr. Deedes: It is worth realising, too, that quite apart from the recent appeal, this company had permission for a much larger area south-east of the appeal site.
Mr. Doughty: They did not have the two acres. Let us deal with those.
Mr. Deedes: They had permission for this much larger area and, but for the tunnel, they would have been operating their lime works over a larger area and for a much longer period than is now envisaged.
My hon. Friend has said that there can be no possible chance of an amicable exchange. He knows that I am not going into the details because time precludes. He knows what is at stake here. The obstacle to working for the company now is the fact that the open space strip is

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owned by the district council. A compulsory acquisition of the necessary working rights by a compulsory purchase order or by High Court grant is not without the bounds of possibility, but it would be a better arrangement for all concerned—and I do not accept my hon. and learned Friend's word as the last word on this—if the council would agree to negotiate an exchange of the strip in return for the considerable area of other land held by the company.
Although the Council is precluded by the 1937 compulsory purchase order from selling the land before 1958, an exchange of land is not prohibited, although the consent of the Minister is necessary under the Green Belt Act. I understand that the council has declined to consider an exchange, and I earnestly put it to my hon. Friend that he should do what he can to see that authority tries to ensure that the decision of the Minister is carried out, and that in particular it will give further consideration to these arrangements for exchanging land.
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I myself think that the prospect for local residents is not quite as bad as my hon. and learned Friend has made out. Surely this is better than the alternative for which planning permission had already been granted by the Caterham Council—I stress that—and which would have meant virtually the opening up of a second vast quarry which, in the end, might have been far more objectionable than the arrangements which are now being suggested by my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Doughty: Before he sits down, will my hon. Friend reply to my two questions? He has not referred to either of them.
Mr. Deedes: My hon. Friend raised a legal point which, frankly, I will not answer "off the cuff." I will, however, send him an answer in detail.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at half-past Ten o'clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Hire Purchase (Credit Restrictions)
  Hire Purchase (Credit Restrictions)
  Bulgarian Trade Agreement
  Bulgarian Trade Agreement
  Wholesale Prices
  Wholesale Prices
  Import Duties
  Import Duties
  Czechoslovakia
  Czechoslovakia
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Public Service (Non-Contributory Pensions)
  Public Service (Non-Contributory Pensions)
  SCIENCE GRADUATES
  SCIENCE GRADUATES
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Horticultural Marketing (Report)
  Horticultural Marketing (Report)
  Eggs (Marketing Scheme)
  Eggs (Marketing Scheme)
  Credit Restrictions
  Credit Restrictions
  Slaughterhouses
  Slaughterhouses
  Wheat Straw (Burning)
  Wheat Straw (Burning)
  Rural Water Supplies, Darlington
  Rural Water Supplies, Darlington
  Feedingstuffs (Imports)
  Feedingstuffs (Imports)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Fireworks
  Fireworks
  Summer Time
  Summer Time
  Continental Day Trips (Passports)
  Continental Day Trips (Passports)
  Social Services
  Social Services
  Experiments on Animals
  Experiments on Animals
  Olga Newton
  Olga Newton
  Police (Criminal Offences)
  Police (Criminal Offences)
  Shops (Closing Hours)
  Shops (Closing Hours)
CIVIL DEFENCE
  Recruitment
  Recruitment
  Armed Forces
  Armed Forces
  Regional Directors
  Regional Directors
WALES
  Welsh Language Publishing
  Welsh Language Publishing
  Capital City
  Capital City
EDUCATION
  Further Education (Ballroom Dancing)
  Further Education (Ballroom Dancing)
  Building Programme, Bristol
  Building Programme, Bristol
  Teachers, Tamworth (Housing)
  Teachers, Tamworth (Housing)
  Dried Milk
  Dried Milk
  U.N.E.S.C.O. (Dismissals)
  U.N.E.S.C.O. (Dismissals)
  Nursery Schools
  Nursery Schools
  Science and Mathematics Teachers
  Science and Mathematics Teachers
  Community Centre, Slough
  Community Centre, Slough
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Canberra Bomber
  Canberra Bomber
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Atomic Energy (Publication)
  Atomic Energy (Publication)
  KENYA (CARE OF CHILDREN)
  KENYA (CARE OF CHILDREN)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  River Thames (Pollution Report)
  River Thames (Pollution Report)
  Housing (Fire-safety Modifications)
  Housing (Fire-safety Modifications)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Hounslow
  Hounslow
SCOTLAND
  Gogarburn Hospital (Occupational Centre)
  Gogarburn Hospital (Occupational Centre)
ROADS
  Schemes
  Schemes
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

Prayers
The Lord Russell of Liverpool—Took the Oath.
The Lord Bilslanci—Took the Oath.

BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION BILL
Read 2a, and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

ROYAL COMMISSION ON MARRIAGE AND DIVORCE
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Burden, who is in hospital, I beg to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when the report of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce will be published.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I understand that the Royal Commission expect to present the Report by the end of this year, and it will be published as soon as possible after it has been received.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.6 p.m.
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I have a short statement to make. My noble friend Lord Swinton has tabled an important Motion on the organisation of the Service Departments for Tuesday next, and many of your Lordships have signified your intention to speak in that debate. It has therefore been agreed, through the usual channels, that we shall
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take that debate until about 7 p.m. on Tuesday next and continue it the next clay. I think this will be for the convenience of all concerned. We hope that this debate will be concluded by about 4 p.m. on Wednesday, so that the Motion of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, on Post Office development and finance can be taken afterwards.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD STRATHCLYDE): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946, and certain other enactments relating to education in Scotland, and for purposes connected therewith. I beg to move that this 13i11 he now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a. (Lord Strathclyde.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT. 1932
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, both the Orders standing in my name on the Order Paper are in the usual form. There is nothing to which I think I need draw the attention of your Lordships, and I accordingly beg to move that the first Order be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Stowmarket be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I beg to move that the second. Order be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Northwich be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question. Motion agreed to.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL
3.10 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, this is a small Bill to enable the friendly societies to enlarge their scope and, at the same time, to put right certain anomalies in the existing law. The friendly societies were a product largely of the Victorian era: men came together to secure protection by mutual aid against calamities which might happen to them through sickness, death or other disaster. The societies had an element of good fellowship about them; in fact, many of the early ones used to meet in public-houses, and there was a strong local feeling, because originally they were all local. They had fanciful, rather romantic-sounding names, such as Odd Fellows, Shepherds, Foresters, Druids and so on. Their charter is The Friendly Societies Act, 1896, and the friendly societies proper were registered under Section 8 (1) of that Act. When the 1911 National Health Scheme came into operation the friendly societies were harnessed as paying agents for benefits on behalf of the Government; in fact, they were married to the State. But when the 1946 National Health Scheme came into operation no place was found for the societies and there was, in effect, a divorce.
In 1947 they reached their peak membership of 8½, million. In 1954 they had dwindled to 6½ million, and it can be seen that their dwindling function has resulted in a somewhat dwindling membership. However, they still have an appeal, because people still want to secure themselves some benefit greater than the State will provide and the element of benefit-cum-saving which is characteristic of so many of these societies is a most attractive one. In 1948, after holding an unofficial inquiry, Lord Beveridge produced a book called Voluntary Aid, which I can commend to your Lordships as being interesting and good reading. That book examined the position of the friendly societies with great care. The noble Lord recognised that their main functions had largely been taken over by the State, but he suggested that people should be encouraged to supplement the State benefits through the societies and also that the societies should be encour-
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aged and enabled to break new ground. He had in mind particularly, among other things, homes for old people, clubs and holiday camps. In June. 1949, there was a debate in your Lordships' House on the subject, and since then the matter has been examined carefully in the Departments concerned. Successive Governments, however, have not found time for legislation, but in December last year, the Member for Holland-with-Boston, Sir Herbert Butcher, introduced a Private Member's Bill. That Bill had some assistance from the Government, but was a casualty of the Dissolution; so now we have found time to produce a Government Bill for the same purpose.
The objects of the friendly societies are defined in subsection (1) of Section 8 of the Act of 1896, and they are comparatively narrow. They are confined, in the main, to insurance for benefits of birth, sickness, death or endowment for limited sums. To this, in this new Bill, we now propose to add marriage and unemployment. This is as far as we go in adding to the direct scope of the societies, but we propose some important indirect additions to the possibility of their activities. Under the Act of 1896, there are other classes of societies which can be registered, though not, of course, as friendly societies; working men's clubs, and benevolent societies of various kinds. We now propose to add a further class, that of old people's homes societies. We also propose that societies registered in one class should be allowed to lend their surplus funds to societies registered in other classes, which cover working men's clubs, old people's homes societies, and other similar activities.
In addition, we propose that friendly societies should be able to invest their surplus funds in shares and loan capital of housing associations—which, of course, are not registered under this Act at all. All this is secured by Clauses 1, 2. 3 and 4. Clause 6 should also be a help to the friendly societies. It makes it possible for them to get exemption from the restrictions of the Industrial Assurance Acts in respect of a rather wider field of sickness-cum-death insurance than applies at present.
The remaining clauses clear up some anomalies of the existing law and should be welcomed by the-societies. Parliament has always had a soft spot in its heart

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for the friendly societies—and rightly so. For instance, they are exempt from taxes, provided that they set a limit of £500 on assurance and f104 a year on annuities. They have in the past done great work to encourage thrift and to mitigate the calamities of their members, and we should be sorry to see them dwindle further. We hope that, with the extra scope provided in this Bill, they may start a new period of advance. We do not pretend that this Bill can create the vast new personal savings which would transform our economy, but we can claim that it is a tiny step towards thrift in a world of profligacy. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Hawke.)
3.18 p.m.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: My Lords, I am sure the House is obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, for his lucid explanation of this small, but not altogether unimportant, Bill. As he has told us, and as your Lordships know, friendly societies have a long and creditable, and in some instances romantic, history. Like so many other organisations, they began as voluntary and mutual help societies, and notwithstanding the Acts of 1911 and 1946, which took away some of their functions, they have not only survived but are playing and will continue to play a considerable part in the future social history of our country. I imagine that all parts of the House can approve the present Bill. Perhaps before 1 offer a few observations on some of the clauses, I ought to declare an interest as a trustee of a friendly society and as a member of a legal firm which from time to time acts as legal adviser to friendly societies. So in those capacities I have some little experience and knowledge of the good friendly societies do, not only in the death or sickness and disability benefits they disburse but in the opportunities they offer for saving and, not less important, the personal and truly fraternal and friendly services which many of them render to their members. As your Lordships know, many of these societies have their own courts and lodges where the members, unlike the members of ordinary insurance companies or societies, are known to one another; they are enabled to meet together and get advice and sympathy and, frequently, practical help. I should like
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to see that aspect of their work extended and developed. It may, of course, be that some of the provisions of this Bill will help to that end.
As the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has told us, there are some 6 million members of friendly societies in this country, a remarkable number. If the noble Lord will forgive my saying so, I felt he gave the impression that the numbers were still going down. I happen to know that in one society, in connection with which I attended a function only two or three weeks ago, the numbers are actually increasing. That society has also a great many—I think 80,000—overseas members, who I think represent a valuable asset to the society and to the country. Of course, friendly societies have no political, denominational or racial associations. Obviously, they play a considerable part in our affairs and are quite an influential factor. Therefore, any Bills affecting their members deserve the attention of both the Government and Parliament. The present Bill is rather "a thing of shreds and patches," but it contains some useful provisions. I should like to offer one or two observations and then ask a question or two on those provisions.
Clause I. gives power to societies to make advances to other societies in circumstances explained by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke. That power is apparently to make advances only, whereas under Clause 2 friendly societies can actually make investments—I suppose by the purchase of shares or otherwise—in housing associations. I wonder if the noble Lord can tell us whether the powers given by Clause i are limited to advances or loans only or whether, under those powers, some actual interest by way of shareholding or investment of some kind may be taken in other societies or organisations? Two other matters arise out of that question. As the noble Lord has explained, and as your Lordships know, in certain conditions friendly societies are entitled to exemption from income tax. If a friendly society invests its funds, whether surplus or otherwise, in trustee securities, then it enjoys tax exemption; but, apparently, if a society establishes another society or body to run, for example, the old people's homes mentioned in the Bill, or for some other social purpose, that subsidiary society, if I may call it such, will not be exempt from income tax. This would appear to he

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somewhat illogical. Perhaps the noble Lord will be good enough to indicate where the line of demarcation will be drawn.
A second question concerns the powers of investment of a friendly society. Most of us who have anything to do with friendly societies, or indeed anything to do with trusts, know the difficulty nowadays, in the absence of express authority, in investing funds in remunerative investments, having regard to the limited field allowed by law. None of the additional powers which this Bill gives to friendly societies appears to improve that position at all. Gilt-edged securities lose their value, as do deposits in savings banks, and it would appear that in these days only the power to invest in real property is valuable to trustees, and indeed to friendly societies. Real property is probably the best form of investment at present. I wondered whether the Government had given any consideration to that position, and with what result.
Clause 3 is useful in that it extends the range of friendly society benefits to a form of unemployment benefit and to a benefit on marriage. Those are, clearly, a great advantage. Clause 5—I was going to say "unfortunately"—will deprive lawyers of some work which they at present have to do, in that the powers of nomination given to members of friendly societies are increased by that clause.
Clause 4 is also useful, in that it enables friendly societies with their surplus funds, in conjunction with local authorities, where that is possible, to provide or assist in the provision of old people's homes, not only for the society's own members but for others. Your Lordships know that the provision of these homes seems to become more and more necessary as time goes on. A great deal is being done in our large cities in that direction. I happen to know that in my own city, in one home alone provided comparatively recently by the corporation, the accommodation is full and there are certainly over a hundred applicants who will have to wait until one of the present fortunate tenants dies before one of them can take over that accommodation. Therefore, I hope that friendly societies and local authorities will do all they can to further the provision of old people's homes by means of their funds and, in particular,
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the surplus funds of friendly societies. Quite clearly, that object, and some of the other objects I have dealt with, are eminently desirable. In general. I feel sure the House will agree that the Bill is useful. I hope that it will soon be passed into law and that friendly societies and their members, as well as local authorities, will take full advantage of its provisions.
3.28 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I remember well the last time that your Lordships discussed friendly societies. On that occasion I recall that all the noble Lords who sat on my side of the House, with the humble exception of myself, held a quite definite view of the matter after several speeches had been made. The noble and learned Earl who now leads the Opposition then rose and made a ten-minute speech which changed the whole complexion of the debate and moved the whole House unanimously to his opinion on the matter. I have always remembered that, because it seems to me significant in these days when people are too apt to say that your Lordships' House is a "rubber stamp" for the Conservative Party. I hope that the noble and learned Earl will always remember that occasion as well as I do.
There is little left for me to say about this Bill, for the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, has said practically all that I wished to say about it. It is natural and proper to discuss these things where there exist useful organisations which have a great social value but which, owing to legislation, find that a great many of their functions are withdrawn from them. It is always sound. I think, to enlarge and expand the functions of such organisations, and this Bill is intended by all Parties in the State to set the friendly societies free and to give them new and important functions to carry out. Like Lord Milner of Leeds, I am glad to see that they can support boys' clubs and housing schemes, and also the housing of old people. a matter which is becoming of much greater importance than it was in the time of our ancestors.
There is only one question that I should like to ask the noble Lord in charge of this Bill. It may not be an important question, but it is: when any contract of insurance is entered into between a person and a company, as your Lordships

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know, the most scrupulous accuracy in all the statements made by the proposer has to be adhered to; if not, it vitiates the contract. The people who propose themselves to friendly societies are, in the main, poor and uneducated people. I have never had to propose myself to a friendly society, so I am ignorant on the subject. What I should like to know is whether the fact that an inaccuracy in the answers to any of the questions on the form may lead to the vitiation of the contract is clearly stated on the form which has to be answered. I think it is important that it should be, even though there may be no great necessity for it. With those few words, I welcome this Bill.
3.32 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I am glad to know that the Bill has had such a warm welcome from both sides of the House. Lord Milner of Leeds asked me one or two questions with which I should like to deal—first of all, in regard to the power in Clause 1 to lend surplus funds. I understand that that power applies only to making loans, not to taking up any form of share. Then the noble Lord asked a question about tax exemption. These societies are free from tax, and they will remain free from tax on any income which they may derive from this lending of their surplus funds. On the other hand. the people to whom they lend their surplus funds will be in precisely the same position as they are in at the moment—some of them may he tax exempt and some may not; it depends entirely on the Act under which they are incorporated and so on. So one can say that the lending of their funds does not carry with it tax exemption to another body.
The noble Lord raised a very wide point in regard to the question of extending the securities in which they can invest their funds. Of course, they already have a wider scope than many bodies because they can invest in land or in mortgages on security on land. But, apart from land, I can see nothing in which they can invest which would appreciate with any fall in the value of money. However, I believe that the issue is a far wider one than this, and it would be impossible, on a small Bill such as this, to deal with the whole position of trustees. We all get our troubles in this matter and we are all
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deeply sympathetic; but so far trustees have not been allowed any wider scope, and it certainly cannot be done on this Bill.
My noble friend Lord Saltoun has asked me a specific question about the exact contents of the proposal forms of these societies. I must confess that I have not armed myself with the proposal forms and I do not know the answer to his question. I understand, however, that the question has never arisen of the vitiation of a policy through a misstatement by a policy-holder who was without full knowledge of the terms and conditions of the contract. I think the best thing I can do is to make some inquiry about the practice of the societies and to write my noble friend a letter on the subject. I hope that I have answered the points raised, and I thank the House for the reception they have given to the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ALIENS' EMPLOYMENT BILL
3.36 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 1 [Provision for civil employment of aliens]:
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK)had given notice of three Amendments to Clauses 1 and 2, the first of which was, in Clause 1 (1), after the first word "in," to insert, "Section three of." The noble Earl said: The first three Amendments on the Marshalled List all deal with one point, and if it is convenient I will deal with them together. Their object is to clarify the position of a British a protected person. This point was raised by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, in the course of the Second Reading debate. The purpose of this Bill is to allow, in certain circumstances, the employment of aliens by the Crown. An

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alien is someone who is neither a British subject nor a British protected person. But in providing for the employment of aliens there is just the shadow of a question as to whether or not we should make proper provision for a British protected person, or whether the position is, in fact, covered by the terms of Section 3 of the Act of Settlement. The somewhat archaic language of that Act might possibly raise the slenderest doubt whether it did, in fact, cover a British protected person. I am bound to say that the employment by the Crown of British protected persons has never been questioned, but at the time when the Act of Settlement was passed there was no such thing as a British subject, let alone a British protected person.
The first Amendment specifies the part of the Act concerned and is really no more than formal. The second Amendment (that to page 1, line 16) makes it clear that disabilities imposed by the Act of Settlement do not apply to British protected persons; and the third Amendment is purely consequential. The effect of making the Amendments will be that the certification for aliens will not apply to British protected persons, who will be entirely on the same footing in respect of employment by the Crown as a British subject or a Commonwealth citizen.
There was one other point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, and perhaps it may be convenient if I deal with it at this stage. He raised the question of what would be the position in a protectorate of a British protected person in comparison with the employment by the Imperial Government of some alien. I went into the question of whether the British protected person was in a position of advantage or disadvantage. I think the noble Earl will concede to me that the circumstances are a trifle remote. None the less, I want to give him what I think is the answer. First of all, there are administrative arrangements which would Rive preference in those circumstances to the employment of British protected persons. But secondly, in the event of any competition, and in the unlikely possibility of the Imperial Government bringing in an unnecessary number of aliens, it would, of course, in proper circumstances, fall to the local Government to make representation. I have no doubt that they would
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make energetic and successful representations if ever such a situation arose. I hope that answers the noble Earl's point, and that the Committee will agree that that slight emphasis on "British protected persons" is an improvement of the Bill, if ever there was any doubt. I beg to move the first Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 5, after ("in") insert ("section three of").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: I should like to express our gratitude to the noble Earl for having introduced this Amendment, which seems to have removed a doubt, even if a remote one. I am not familiar with the British Nationality Act, but it occurs to me that a British protected person keeps his status wherever he is domiciled for the present. Is that so? Surely a British protected person from a protectorate would retain his status if he moved to another part of the Commonwealth. He would still be safeguarded in the same way as if he had remained in the country of his origin.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Bill deals only with employment. I am not dealing with the wider question of status. So far as employment is concerned, I think that is clear.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I beg to move the second Amendment, which is formal.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 16, at end insert ("and so much of the said section three as imposes disability for employment in any such capacity shall cease to have effect in relation to British protected persons.").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [Supplementary provisions]:
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 17, leave out ("has") and insert ("and 'British protected person' have").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
In the Title:
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am given to understand that this Amendment to the Title is a very narrow point, but on balance it has been decided that the Title should be extended. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
In the Title: after ("aliens") insert ("and British protected persons").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Title, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.

FOOD AND DRUGS BILL [H.L.]
3.45 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I rise to express to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor our gratitude for and our appreciation of the fact that he is pressing on with this work of consolidation, and our sense of the importance attached to this work, which is going so well under our present Lord Chancellor. We are apt to take this a little too much for granted. Here is a formidable Bill of 112 pages which repeals, in part or wholly, some thirteen Acts of Parliament. It reduces to order a branch of the law in which hitherto there has been a good deal of chaos; arid I. consider that that is a very important achievement. I am proud that I managed to start this work and get it under way, and I am happy to think that the present Lord Chancellor is as keen upon it as I was myself. I believe it is immensely important that the law of this country should be so stated that people without high technical training will understand whim it is all about; and the reason lying behind our Consolidation Bills is that that may come about. We bring various Statutes into one Statute or we do away with obscurities and ambiguities. I wish only to say how pleased I am that we have achieved this important result. The noble and learned Lord Chancellor is to be commended for this, and I thought your Lordships would forgive
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me if I rose to express that opinion. We are getting so accustomed to these Consolidation Bills that we always pass them sub silentio. I thought it as well, therefore, to say that we are deeply appreciative of the good work which is being done under the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor by the staff which he retains for this particular purpose.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Earl. He has been kind enough to make reference to my continuance of his work. I can assure him that the torch which he lit is still very much alight. I are sure that the noble and learned Earl and all your Lordships would like me to pass on to the staff who work so hard in this field of the law and on the improvement of the Statute Book the commendation of your Lordships' House.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

NOISE FROM AIRCRAFT
3.48 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to rake to mitigate the misery and hardship suffered by the civilian population through noise from aircraft; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I trust that it will be convenient to your Lordships if I preface my remarks with a word of explanation as to how this Motion which stands in my name appears on the Order Paper. During the Recess I took advantage of an invitation I received to go to the Farnborough Air Display. I must confess that the lasting impression upon my mind was the terrific, almost unholy, din that was created. When T arrived back at my home (as your Lordships may know, I live not far from the city of Oxford) the British Association for the Advancement of Science was in session there, and I followed their proceedings with wrap attention, hoping that the scientific brains of this country might be tempted to give some thought to what I consider to be one of the social scourges of this country—noise. I waited in vain. I was therefore prompted, as this was during the Recess of your Lordships' House and Parliament, so that I could not raise the subject here, to write a letter to The Times newspaper.
I did so, with malice aforethought. I did it to provoke thought and discussion —and, believe me, it did! I can only suppose that the editor of The Times received many more letters than he could possibly find space for in his columns. I can only think that the various Departments of Her Majesty's Government received some, too, for I confess that for days and weeks my post was full. Some of the letters were of a most distressing character and the words which I have used in this Motion:
"to ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take to mitigate the misery and hardship suffered …"
are 100 per cent true. Misery and hardship are being suffered. I have here some of the correspondence. Some of your Lordships may have read the correspondence in The Times from these people: they are people who have had personal experience; people living in terror, living in a noise such that they can get neither sleep nor rest, day or night. These people are of all ages and conditions. Some of them have invested their life savings in houses in which to spend their declining years, and they now find that, property being the price it is, they cannot afford to sell their homes and move away.
All these things are common knowledge—they are of everyday occurrence. I do not think it right to expect human beings in a civilised country in this year 1955 to live under such conditions without strenuous efforts by the Government to see that those conditions are mitigated. It was reported in the Press the other day, I understand, that 300 families had left Crawley because they felt they would be unable to stand what they would have to put up with when Gatwick Airport was established. I understand that an exodus has started from Hemel Hempstead. I have received letters from many parts of the country—from East Anglia, from places in the north of Norfolk and from areas extending right down into the West Country—all telling of nuisance and hardship which no human being ought to be asked to tolerate. Some letters tell of helicopter engines being run day and night—that is for twenty-four hours on end. Others speak of the Sabbath Day being treated with such scant respect that the noises are continued upon it; there is no amelioration of these conditions, even on Sunday.
I am not going to try to harrow the feelings of your Lordships. You know as well as I do that my purpose is to ask Her Majesty's Government what they propose to do. It is no good telling your Lordships' House of the difficulties —they are self-apparent. But I say that the difficulties are there to be overcome. Some of your Lordships may remember that in the correspondence which I started in The Times newspaper I asked whether the time had not arrived when legislation should be passed to prohibit this nuisance. I drew a parallel, citing the example of the motor car. The motor car, on its advent in this country, was the noisiest and most pestilential object people had ever heard. The public just would not stand for its noise and it had to be silenced. The will of the people was the only real incentive which there was to silence the motor car engine. What incentive is there to-day to silence aircraft? It may be thought that there is none at the present time, but in the case of civil aircraft there is fast becoming one.
In this connection, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to an article written by Sir Miles Thomas, Chairman of B.O.A.C., which was printed in the Sunday Times on October 23. He stated, quite frankly, that commercial considerations would compel the silencing of civil aircraft. The English Electric Canberra bomber that flew from this country to America was not allowed to land in New York because it was noisy. It had to fly 150 miles further to a military airport before it was allowed to land. Let me here and now pay a tribute to Sir Miles Thomas for the courage he showed in writing this article and admitting the dire necessity for some action by the civil airline companies to see that the aircraft they purchase do not offend the public ear. He wrote—and I quote his words:
"There is not much point in scudding at more than 500 m.p.h. across 3,000 miles of the earth's surface in four hours or so if the trip is to be preceded and followed by a couple of two-hour journeys to get to and from airfields that are located far enough from city centres to avoid punishing the ears of the non-flying populace with excessive noises off."
Sir Miles also wrote:
"… although … I am all for progress in speed and range of the vehicles we employ, as a fellow human being I equally realise that this noise factor cannot be allowed to become

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more of a public nuisance than it already is. Indeed, my view is that we simply must demand;hat our engineers and technicians reduce it.
… we must call a halt to the increase in the unearthly din that will inevitably accrue unless our technicians are told to get down to avoiding it."
As Sir Miles Thomas points out, civil aircraft will get bigger and bigger, and more powerful and more noisy. He speaks with perhaps the most authoritative voice in this matter, and he says that the Cornet No. I, owing to its power, was the noisiest aircraft in the country. The new American 100-seater airliners are three times as noisy as that, and they are due to go into the air in about two years' time. I suggest to your Lordships that it may well be, as was said by an honourable Member in another place, that if this thing goes on the civil population will be provoked to taking the law into their own hands and marching in a body down the runways of London Airport. Surely, in a civilised community, that should not be necessary. When we come to civil aircraft we are up against a problem. I quite understand the necessity of having an airport like London Airport which has to be the terminus of the airlines of the world; but I am certain that our technicians and our scientists can get down to this job of silencing. It is no good saying: "Of course it increases the weight." It increases the weight of a Rolls Royce motor car to silence the engine. And do you mean to tell me that this question of increasing weight should stand in the way of the happiness and the health and welfare of thousands and thousands of British citizens?
Now as to helicopters. Three of them passed over here before I started speaking this afternoon. I do not know whether Lord Carrington, with that good nature for which he is renowned, had laid it on specially as a demonstration for your Lordships, but those were silenced helicopters, flying at quite a distance from your Lordships' House—and, be it remembered, all the windows here were closed. How would your Lordships like that unholy din to be going over a civil community day and night? When I hear that some local authorities are to have helicopter sites established in the middle of their towns all I can say is that I trust that the people of those places will rise in their wrath to see that the machines are properly silenced before they do.
While, as Sir Miles Thomas rightly says, there will be increased commercial incentive for air lines to silence their engines, when we come to the Services the difficulty is more serious. I can think of only one incentive that can ever operate in that direction, and that is a kindlier and more general sympathy towards the fundamental right of citizens to live their lives in a reasonable amount of peace and quietness. I was much impressed by a paragraph that appeared in one of two leading page articles in The Times headed "The Curse of Noise." The article quoted an eminent High Court Judge on the subject of noise, and this is the quotation:
"… every person is emitted as against his neighbour to the comfortable and healthful enjoyment of the premises occupied by him, and in coming to a decision whether his right has been interfered with and a nuisance thereby caused, it is necessary to determine whether the act complained of is an inconvenience materially interfering with the ordinary physical comfort of human existence, not merely according to elegant and dainty modes and habits of living but according to plain and sober and simple notions obtaining amongst English people … it no answer to say that the best-known means have been taken to reduce or prevent the noise complained of …"
That is the dictum of the High Court An equally comprehensive dictum was laid down by the head of the Civil Service and endorsed by Her Majesty's Government: that the ordinary citizen had the right to believe that Her Majesty's Government and all those who work for Her Majesty's Government respected the rights of the ordinary citizen. The noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, will remember when that was said: it was at the time of the Crichel Down affair.
I must say that that view does not exist in the Service Department which is responsible for the noise that is such a menace to the health end peace of the people of this country. I say that with a full sense of responsibility. I have spoken on this subject previously in your Lordships' House and I raised the matter strongly. The debate on that occasion, nearly two years ago, was answered by the noble and gallant Lord, the Secretary of State for Air. Since that time I have had a continuous correspondence with the noble Lord, because I have gone out of my way to investigate this problem up and down the country. Let me say at once that I have received nothing but courtesy and help from the noble Lord, Lord Dc L'Isle and Dudley. He has gone

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as far as I could humanly expect him to go in trying to mitigate this nuisance.
But I want to tell your Lordships of an experience. I protested most vigorously to the noble Lord about the terrific noise caused by aircraft flying at a height of 100 feet or less over a thickly populated area. In his reply, the noble Lord said that he had caused a strict investigation to be made and had received an assurance that no aircraft had flown lower than 300 feet. I said to the noble Lord, "This proves to me conclusively what I have suspected for years. You are not being told the truth. Will you now have the matter really established and send down to this area your noise investigation squad to find out the truth?" The noble Lord did this readily and quickly, and he has now proved that I was right. He discovered that aircraft do fly at 120 feet over that thickly populated area, and that the average height of flying is under 200 feet—after he had received an assurance that aircraft were not flying under 300 feet. I do not think I put it too highly when I say that there is a prima fade case that the veracity of those who report on these matters is at least of doubtful quality.
This nuisance goes on all over the country. I readily concede that it is difficult for the uninitiated to measure accurately the height at which an aircraft is flying, but it is easy for them to estimate accurately the noise. I have here letters complaining of Service aircraft which fly over hospitals at a height of 50 feet or maybe 100 feet. The people who write these letters—many of them senior retired Servicemen of standing—are not fabricating these stories, and perhaps their exaggeration is negligible. From my investigations, I am convinced that a great percentage of low flying by Service aircraft is not necessary from the military point of view and is to be condemned from the civilian point of view. Nobody is going to convince me that it is necessary for Service aircraft to fly as low as some of them do, and if it is necessary—and I appreciate that pilots must be trained—they should fly at that height away from civilians who have to live and go about their peaceful avocations. It is a perfect scandal that this should be allowed to go on.
I beg the noble Lord not to tell your Lordships all the difficulties. We know
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them. It is for these difficulties to be overcome. I asked a Question of the noble Lord, the Secretary of State for Air, the other day as to what was the amount of Government money that had been spent on research and development of aircraft since the war. The reply of the noble Lord was that £360 million had been so spent. The Minister of Housing and Local Government, when he was Minister of Supply, said that the Government were spending £100.000 a year on research into the elimination of noise, if my mental arithmetic is anything worth talking about, that means that if that has been kept up since the war the Government are spending about one-quarter of I per cent. of the £360 million. I want to appeal to the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, as a senior Cabinet Minister—I am sorry that the noble Marquess who leads the House is not here: does he not think that it is the duty of the Government to spend far more money than that to mitigate what is fast becoming a scourge of the people of our country? The noble Viscount is a humane man and he has made speeches in this House which have commended themselves to all of us, irrespective of Party, on the necessity of increasing production. How can people increase production when they live all their days in the noise of machine shops and are kept awake all their nights by these aircraft?
Height of flying is a factor, because the higher you go the less the noise. If we cannot, by any technical or legislative means, stop engines from making a noise, we can, by a simple administrative act, order that these aircraft shall not fly so low that their noise is a great nuisance to the civil population. That, so far as I can see, is the only incentive. I would beg the Government to recognise once again—and I do not think they will deny this for one moment—the fundamental right of the common citizen to live in a reasonable amount of peace and quiet. To put it down to "Service requirements and progress" is, if the noble Lord will forgive my saying so, just a lot of "ballyhoo" and is ceasing to have any effect upon the civil population of this country, except to make them ridicule; and that, I think, is a dangerous thing. I want to give the noble Lord an example of what I mean when I speak of lack of consideration. On many of these Service aerodromes where they fly as many hours as they can

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during the day and during the night, they have on a peaceful Sunday, from daylight to nightfall, these little planes going round and round and round. The reason, I am given to understand, is that a number of clubs have been formed by the personnel of Air Force stations, and they have these little planes to fly when the Service pilots are taking the week-end off. Surely, if the slightest consideration were given to a distracted population, they could at least be spared that kind of thing.
I have put my case, I hope with reason and not too forcefully, because I appreciate all the difficulties. But these difficulties must be overcome. I hope that the Government will see that far more money is spent on research into noise elimination. A noble friend of mine said to me just before the debate started: "The thing I cannot understand is why the people who manufacture the noise cannot manufacture a silencer." That was a piece of logic I could not contest. I hope the noble Lord who is to reply to the debate will see that the standards of low flying by Service personnel in this country are in future more attuned to the mitigation of this hardship and misery about which I have spoken to your Lordships this afternoon. I beg to move for Papers.
4.17 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, the attack which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has delivered on the pilots of the Royal Air Force when in the air almost prompted me to alter the order of my impromptu speech, but I feel that in the interests of clarity I had better continue as I had originally intended. With much that the noble Lord has said I, in common, I am sure, with other noble Lords, agree. Noise, of course, is hideous; and aircraft noise is not the only noise which sometimes makes our lives intolerable. I should like to speak, as an ex-pilot in the Royal Air Force, on behalf of those who fly and operate aircraft. I can assure your Lordships that no one desires that the noise made by aircraft should be diminished more than do those who fly them or work in them on the ground at airfields or in the vicinity of airfields: the noise is just as hideous to them as it is to oilier inhabitants of the area. Pilots' fatigue is due largely to noise. A good
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example in that regard is the Vickers Viscount, which I imagine is the quietest air liner to-day. Crews I have talked to have all assured me that the fatigue which they suffer in the same amount of flying time in a piston-engined aircraft is immeasurably more than in the Viscount. From this I hope to prove to your Lordships that we airmen are not making a noise for the sake of noise. We want it mitigated and lessened every bit as much as the ordinary man in the street.
Furthermore, aircraft engine constructors would themselves prefer more silent engines. They would have a greater selling point because, if such engines could be put in transport aircraft, airline operators would always be able to attract more passengers to those aircraft which would be more comfortable to fly in. Airframe constructors likewise would prefer more silent engines, because the present soundproofing which they have to construct into aircraft is costly and causes extra weight which they would like to get rid of, While on the subject of weight, if I remember aright the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, mentioned. or seemed to give the imprecision, that the only excuse by designers for not having. silencers was one of weight. I should like to assure the noble Lord that that is not so. I will not go into the technical details, because I feel that the noble Lord who is to reply on behalf of the Government will mention these technical points; and as I am only an amateur in this matter I might "fox" the issue somewhat. I can assure the noble Lord, however that it is not mere laziness on the part of the. manufacturers; it is the fact that the technical difficulties have not yet been overcome.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, mentioned low flying by pilots of the Royal Air Force. I should like to refer to that remark, and also to the correspondence which, as the noble Lord mentioned, took place in The Times late in the summer. Unfortunately, I was not in this country when this correspondence started, and by the time, I. came back I found that it was too late for me to reply to a letter from and correspondent who lives in Norfolk and who wrote, if I may say so, a slashing attack on station commanders and their control over their pilots, particularly in the Norfolk and Suffolk area. It was not more than four years ago that I myself was a station commander on a fighter station on the borders

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of Norfolk and Suffolk, and I can assure y our Lordships that the efforts which we take to prevent pilots from carrying out unauthorised low flying are as watertight as we can possibly make them.
The regulations are that no aircraft may fly below 2,000 feet unless specifically authorised on specific flights for a specific purpose, usually—in fact I can say entirely—when carrying out practices for war-time intruder operations. These practices are extremely necessary, but they are carried out only at specific points, away from towns, and each flight has to have the signed authority of at least the flight commander concerned. The only other occasions on which a pilot may descend below 2,000 feet, once he is airborne, is when coming in to land or if weather forces him to come below that height—and only then in the interests of the safety of the aircraft and crew. If a pilot finds that he has to break these regulations he must report the matter to his flight commander or, if he himself is a flight commander, to his squadron commander: and there is then an investigation to discover whether that particular breaking of the regulations was necessary. Any pilot who is proved to have flown below regulation height is subject to court-martial and is liable to instant dismissal from Her Majesty's Air Force. If the noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth, cares to inquire, he will find that what I have said on this point is, unfortunately, true. There have been only a few cases, but when they are found they are treated with the utmost severity, which they deserve.
We are all frail human beings, and there will obviously be the young pilot who occasionally decides that he will have a "bang" and who may go down low, though he knows that he is taking a risk. But that is something we cannot control. If he does it, he is not only risking his own neck, but also risking his chances of remaining in the Royal Air Force. Furthermore, if a station commander were found to have concurred in, or passed over, a case of low flying, his chances of survival as a station commander would be very slim indeed. I sympathise wholeheartedly with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, because I understand that his house is right in the centre of the extension—
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I hesitate to interrupt the noble Earl, but I have not mentioned anything about that. I am not pleading my own case at all; I am pleading the case of those who are inarticulate, which I have the right to do. So I hope the noble Earl will not bring personal prejudice into it, thinking that I am bringing my own case forward.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: I apologise to the noble Lord opposite if I have said anything which in any way upsets him, and I withdraw any such remarks. I was only going to sympathise with him. However, we will pass that over, and I hope the noble Lord will accept my apology.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Of course I will, absolutely.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: That is all I have to say, and I hope that I have made it clear to noble Lords that we airmen are not unsympathetic about noise: it effects us as much as it affects anybody else.
4.27 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, as usual I shall detain your Lordships only a very short time. I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, on his able exposition of what is going on in this country. It is not the first time that he has done it. I have supported him in the past, and I do to-day. There is one point which I think can be rectified if the spirit is willing, and I am going to refer to that point only. It concerns military aircraft. I am sure that some of your Lordships must have suffered as a result of planes exceeding the speed of what I believe is technically called Mach I. That means flying at a speed at sea level of 760 m.p.h., and at higher altitudes at a lesser speed. I have been to a certain place which has suffered from this on many occasions, and the wholesale destruction to market garden glass was appalling. The people living there were, as the noble Lord described, living in misery and in a nervous condition that was quite obvious; and I feel that here is something that can be stopped. I put this question either in your Lordships' House or, it might have been, at the Air Ministry, and I was told, "You are asking for something that is expensive." I said, "Why on earth not do all this flying over the sea? Why do it over a

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populated area?" I was told, "It would be very expensive." I happen to have one or two friends who are Air Marshals and they said they had never heard such nonsense in their lives; that aeroplanes which fly from any of these aerodromes, as do the planes which break the sound barrier—to put it perhaps in easier terms —have to go only a very short distance to get over the sea. Let them do it. They said: "It costs practically nothing at the speed that they fly."
I myself motored the best part of sixty miles to see for myself what the conditions were like and what complaints were made; and to show your Lordships the nonsense that was talked I may tell you that when a complaint was made, the complainant was asked: "At what time did it happen? What was the exact place where it happened?" The reply in one ease was that no plane had done what it was reputed to have done; there was no evidence. In one case I was asked: "What was the number of the plane? What was the type of plane?" It has happened to me over my house. I was blown out of bed one morning and everything was blown out; the curtains were all over the place. How on earth was I to know what plane it was, what its number was or at what speed it went? Even if I had been able to see, I do not suppose I should have been able to see the plane at that speed. That sort of thing is irritating beyond words. I say to your Lordships that this nuisance can be stopped. If it is accessory, as it may well be, for these planes to do that sort of thing, let them do it over the sea. I beg the noble Lord to bring these points very strongly indeed to the proper quarter, so that this nuisance may be stopped, as it is doing a terrible amount of damage and harm to the nerves and lives of quite a number of people. I can speak from personal experience. I ask the noble Lord if he will deal with that matter in his reply.
4.33 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, following what the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, has just said, I should like to give your Lordships an example of what happened to me on Monday last: it will show that it is quite impossible for anybody to see either the number of the plane, its markings or colour, or, often, the type. I was in my own garden on Monday and suddenly a plane swept down, making an
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awful noise. It made me jump, as naturally it would, coming from nowhere. I looked round to see where this plane was. I looked in one direction and then the other; and when found where the plane was, I saw that it was at least five miles away from my own particular place.
I want to speak for a few moments on the position in the Eastern Counties, and particularly in Norfolk and Suffolk. We in Norfolk are not troubled very much by commercial aircraft; we are pretty well off the passenger routes. But we have in our county many R.A.F. stations and several American stations, so noble Lords can understand that, day in and day out, we have aircraft flying around us all the time. Fortunately, we are not troubled by much night flying, although it happens sometimes. We have naturally become accustomed to aircraft noise, as anybody can become accustomed to certain noises and inconveniences—for instance, if one lives near a railway one becomes accustomed to the passing of trains and suchlike. In the same way one can become accustomed to aircraft flying around in the country districts; often one does not notice them except that, looking up into the sky on a clear day, it is possible to see the zigzag vapour trails, even though the machine itself is invisible. We have had occasion to complain of low flying, and in a moment. I want to refer to one particular case which has been put to me.
The noble Lord, Lord Teviot, has referred to the sound harrier. We suffer quite a lot in Norfolk in regard to this breaking of the sound harrier. I was in your Lordships' House on Tuesday. I went home that night and said to my wife: "Has anything very much happened to-day?" She said "We have had a regular system of bangs and bangs." These hangs, which come from the breaking of the sound barrier, are a little disturbing, although in some respects we have not suffered in Norfolk as the glasshouse people have in Hertfordshire and elsewhere. I agree with what the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, said about the R.A.F. I am glad that he made a plea for the R.A.F. and stated, as I am certain is the case, that, so far as possible, the R.A.F. want to minimise the disturbances which are created by flying. But in every walk of life there are one or two folks who are anxious to "show

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off". That often happens in regard to flying. Those of us who live on the coastline of Norfolk, in the coastal villages and towns, complain of the way in which the planes, to whichever unit of the Service they may belong, whether American planes or any other planes, come in from the sea and across the villages and towns at a very low altitude. If possible, the Under-Secretary could make representations to the Minister that it might ease the situation if definite instructions were given that, in coming in over the coastline, a high altitude should be maintained.
The case to which I want to refer your Lordships concerns a Sunday afternoon. Of course, on a Sunday afternoon one cannot be quite certain whether the aeroplane in question is a unit machine or a private machine; one does not know to whom it belongs. But I want to endorse what was said by the noble Lord who moved the Motion about this Sunday afternoon flying. It is important that, so far as possible, we should do away with unnecessary flying on Sundays. I have received one letter which I should like to bring to your Lordships' notice. It says:
"I know you will not let this incident go unheeded."
This is the first opportunity I have had of mentioning the matter. A few months ago, an elderly lady, with her daughter and her two children, was out on an ordinary Sunday afternoon walk in a Norfolk village. The children were young. Those were people who had come out of London after various air raids during the war. They were all in a state of nervous tension, and during that afternoon walk the pilot of a certain plane indulged in what we always know as "hedge-hopping." This plane came over the village very low and frightened the children so much that the baby in the pram was unable to cry or raise any state of alarm at all. The adult people present were also much shocked by the approach of the plane and its proximity to the houses and the people in the village.
That is a simple case, and no doubt it could be multiplied times without number. Therefore I hope that, as a result of this debate, steps will be taken to ease the circumstances in which low flying is indulged in. I
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have no doubt, as the noble Earl. Lord Gosford, said, that disciplinary steps would be taken at any R.A.F. station if the guilty party could be ascertained. but it is absolutely impossible to put the guilt on to anybody, and it is no doubt for that reason that the practice goes unnoticed. I conclude by asking the Parliamentary Secretary if he will look up the existing instructions which have been issued to the R.A.F. or other stations in regard to low flying and flying inland from the sea, find whether it is possible for any alterations to be made and see that steps are taken by the Minister to deal with the matter.
4.41 p.m.
VISCOUNT FALMOUTH: My Lords. I wish to congratulate the noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth, once again for bringing this important matter to the attention of your Lordships' House, because there are unfortunate people who live in the neighbourhood of Service aerodromes and who suffer intense discomfort. I was in Kent quite recently and was standing outside a house. Five of these jet planes came over at a height of about 200 feet, and the noise was quite incredible; it was something one had to experience to believe—it was almost as though we were being hit by the intensity of the sound coming from those planes.
This is a problem which affects every one of us in this country, because nobody knows from one year to another when he may find an aerodrome plumped down alongside his home, and the intense sound which is created from that aerodrorre will ruin the whole district. I hope the Government will treat this matter with every sympathy. Up and down the country there is a growing sense of indignation and a general belief that the authorities could not care less "about the inconvenience that is being suffered to-day by thousands of people who are being subjected to this nuisance.
For many years Parliament has been particularly concerned to prevent people from being affected by nuisance created by others. I think I am right in saying that in 1911 a Royal Commission was set up to inquire into the nuisance created by the pollution of rivers by effluent of sewage. The Government were sensitive of interference with the well-being of

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people lower down the river, and protected them by making standards regarding the effluent which could be put into a river. In 1936 there was passed a Public Health Act which dealt with offensive trades, again protecting people in neighbourhoods interfered with by horrible smells, and so on, from trades carried on next door. In 1937 another Act was passed dealing with the putting into sewers of offensive matter. This particularly concerned the plating trade which used to put in noxious acids which destroyed the bacteria in the sewage bays. I think I have shown that Parliament has always been sensitive to nuisance created by individuals which reacts on the general public.
Here, we have a nuisance of the first order. Nobody can pretend that aerodromes, especially Service aerodromes, are not an intolerable nuisance to people in the neighbourhood. I would ask the Government to consider the setting up of a Royal Commission to inquire into the problem of sound from the air. We have heard recently of a Royal Commission to inquire into the question of smoke, and there is an important departmental committee which is considering the question of the effluence of detergents into rivers. It seems to me that a Royal Commission or a strong departmental committee is the only way to tackle a nuisance of this kind. One would like first of all to see certain sound standards established. For many years past it has not been easy to establish such standards for the intensity of sound, but a great deal of work has been done on this matter in the last ten or fifteen years. I think the noble Lord who is to answer the debate will know that in the last few clays a publication on sound measurement has been issued by the National Physical Laboratory. I am sure that that will be a most important document in dealing with matters of this kind.
Why cannot sound standards be established, just as we have sewage standards? Why cannot we have areas of high intensity sound, of medium intensity sound and low intensity sound? if a high intensity area is created, why should not a person have the right to go before a court and try to make a case that it should be a low intensity area? That is what has to be done in the case of a person who wishes to sink a well. One can appeal against the sinking of a well and can try to get the application postponed. Why
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should not that be done in regard to noise as it is in regard to all these other matters? I ask that Were should be set up a Commission to establish sound values of different categories. I ask that people who are compelled to live in areas of high sound intensity shall be compensated for the gross inconvenience that they are suffering for the benefit of the whole country. I ask that the Government should consider putting in, at the public expense, double windows in the houses in these areas, and felting under the roofs, and so on, to try in some way to mitigate We great hardships which these people have to suffer.
The general impression of the public— I am afraid I cannot agree in some ways with what Lord Gosford said—is that the Minister "could riot care less"; that it is not the slightest use traking any protest —-you have just got to grin and bear it. But I would beg Her Majesty's Government to consider the establishment of an influential committee which would be able to examine all these problems, to find out why it is necessary to fly every day and every night; why it is necessary to fly at week-ends and why, if the matter were more carefully examined, training could not take place it isolated districts such as Salisbury Plain and over the sea. An enormous amount might be clone, but we must have an influential committee which can ask, the right questions of the Air Ministry and get proper answers, otherwise we shall get no further in this matter. I beg the Government to be sympathetic about it and to do their level best to protect the civilian population from this appalling nuisance.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, rises, may I be allowed to refer to the remark made by the noble Viscount, Lord Falmouth?
EARL FORTESCUE: No.
4.49 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON): I am sorry.
My Lords, this is by no means the first occasion upon which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has raised the question of aircraft noise; in fact I think it is the fourth time within the space of a year that he has raised the subject or allied subjects in your Lordships' House. Of course, I make no complaint about

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that; it merely goes to show that the subject is of great importance and indeed that the noble Lord feels strongly about it. Certainly, I think all your Lordships would agree that life in general seems to get noisier and noisier. I imagine that if someone who was living a hundred years ago came back and spent a day in London, or indeed in the country, he would be horrified at the noise in which we all live. I remember being told recently by someone who used to balloon in the early days of this century, that at 10,000 feet you could hear very clearly the barking of dogs and the crying of children. Nowadays, I imagine, as you peered nervously around your balloon for aeroplanes, the noise of dogs and children would be drowned by the combine harvester, the tractor, factory sirens, pneumatic drills, motor car horns and shunting trains. But I agree with the noble Lord, that of all the noises we have to suffer far and away the worst is the noise from aircraft, and particularly jet aircraft. But we have to face the fact that as air transport increases the noise becomes more and more widespread.
What I hope to do this afternoon is to show that Her Majesty's Government are keenly conscious of the seriousness of the disturbance, and that we are doing what we can to reduce it. The noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth, chided me in advance for what I was going to say. He said it was no good Her Majesty's Government stating the difficulties. and that difficulties are there to be overcome. The noble Lord said that twice. I would say to the noble Lord that it is of no use his making statements of that kind when he himself knows how intractable is the problem, and when, if I may say so, he has so few constructive suggestions to offer. It is easy to state the problem, but it is not so easy to think of a solution; and I cannot pretend that an early solution is in sight. At the same time it would be wrong to suppose that nothing is being achieved.
For instance, when the noble Lord last raised the question of aircraft noise it was in relation to helicopters which use the terminal across the river and fly near the House. In spite of what the noble Lord said in his remarks, I think all noble Lords would agree that this particular nuisance has been considerably reduced as a result of the fitting of silencers and of
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the instruction that these aircraft should normally keep to a height of at least 1,000 feet, when this is possible, and should never descend below 500 feet until they are in the neighbourhood of the landing area. In that case something could be done and was done, and I hope to show that a great deal is being done in other directions. But the technical problem is formidable, and it would be idle to pretend that we can expect our research to yield quick results or that we can eliminate this nuisance by operational changes alone.
There are three sources of aircraft noise: the manufacturer's aircraft, the civilian operator's aircraft and Service aircraft. Obviously the nature and seriousness of the problem varies as between these classes, but the basic research which is being conducted into the possibilities of reducing aircraft noise is relevant to all of them. The noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth. made some play with the fact that only £100,000 a year was being spent on this research while since the end of the war £360 million had been spent on aircraft research generally. The noble Lord will know as well as I do that there is a limit to the amount of research that can usefully be undertaken in this field. I can assure him that lack of money has not limited the work done. So I will first attempt some description of what is being done in the field of research: that takes us to the heart of the matter, since, in the long run, the reduction of noise at the source is the only really satisfactory solution. I will then try to give your Lordships some idea of the different steps which are being taken by manufacturers, by civil aviation and by the Services to reduce noise, both from engines running on the ground and from aircraft in flight.
The College of Aeronautics, the National Physical Laboratory and the Universities of Southampton and Manchester are all carrying out basic research into noise reduction. The work done at Manchester by Professor Lighthill was of particular importance as giving a theoretical basis for the experiment on jet noise which followed. This basic research includes the measurement of turbulence and noise in jets, and the Ministry of Supply are co-ordinating the work very closely. Research is also going on into the possibilities of reducing jet engine and propeller noise under Ministry of Supply

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contracts with aircraft and engine manufacturers. The corrugated jet nozzle which is being developed by Rolls Royce, under a contract placed by the Ministry of Supply, is showing great promise; and although it is too early to say what result will be achieved, there is reason to hope that it may reduce the noise, both in the air and on the ground, by as much as one half. The Ministry of Supply are already considering the introduction of the new nozzles into engines on the production line, and if research continues to make satisfactory progress we may hope that this will not be too far ahead. In addition, the Bristol Aeroplane Company are working on the reduction of noise from the propellers of propeller-turbine aircraft.
For helicopters, development is continuing on conventional silencers for piston engines, and the problem is to reduce their size and weight and the penalty on performance which they impose. Here again, the Bristol Aeroplane Company were at work on silencers for the Leonides engine which powers the Bristol 173 as long ago as 1953, and instructions to begin work on a silencer for the Westland Sikorsky S.55 were given in August, 1954. Work has, in fact, been going on for a good deal longer than the manufacturers have always been given credit for. Even so, the start of the B.E.A. helicopter service between the South Bank and London Airport had to be delayed until July of this year because silencers were not available. This alone shows that Her Majesty's Government take this problem seriously and are prepared to take positive action when positive action is of some use.
Before I leave the subject of research into the possibilities of reducing engine and propeller noise, I would stress that there can be no simple general solution: different types of engines and designs of aircraft pose different problems, and a variety of answers must be sought. The Departments concerned, the manufacturers, and the airline operators are all very conscious of the problem and they are anxious to exploit the results of the research which is being undertaken. But: success in noise reduction has to be measured against the parallel very rapid increase in engine development. However, progress is being made, and there is no reason why we should not take corn-fort from it.
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I turn now to a different field of research: the development of "mufflers" for jet engines which are being run up on the ground. I am glad to say that we have achieved a good deal of success in this direction, and aircraft companies are planning to install the equipment at their own airfields. The Hawker Aircraft Company, for instance, already have mufflers working satisfactorily at Dunsfold; I have seen and heard them at work, and they are also in use by the R.A.F. The development of mobile mufflers for use on both civil and military aircraft is well advanced.
This may be a convenient point at which to mention the work—one can hardly call it research—which is going ahead on acoustic screens. At London Airport, where the problem of noise from the ground running of engines in the maintenance areas is a serious one, new airport buildings such as hangars are being designed and located so far as possible to screen nearby houses. Wherever possible, ad vantage is taken of existing airport buildings for the same purpose. Experiments are also being made to measure the value of trees as noise screens. The Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation, in conjunction with the operators, have restricted the night running of engines at London Airport to that which is essential for operations on the following day, and even this is carried out only in positions which are screened from nearby residential areas. In the case of B.O.A.C. aircraft, essential engine running between 11 o'clock at night and 7 o'clock in the morning is carried out behind hangars or an acoustic wall; B.E.A. arrange for engine running between those hours to be done where it is blanketed from residential areas by their new hangar. At all Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation aerodromes, engines tested out of their air frames may be run up only in specially silenced test houses.
That brings me to the measures taken to reduce the noise from aircraft in flight. There are, I think, two problems here: first, the noise from low-flying aircraft and, secondly, the nuisance from aircraft taking off and landing. Low flying arises almost exclusively from Service aircraft. Low-flying exercises are essential, not only for ground attack aircraft and so on, but also to exercise the Royal Observer Corps. Nevertheless, as my

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noble friend Lord Gosford has said, very stringent control is exercised. Low flying may be carried out only on the authority of a squadron commander, and it may be carried out only in certain defined areas which, so far as possible, are sited away from built-up areas. The United States Air Force work to the same rules in all this as does the R.A.F., and I should like to take this opportunity of acknowledging the co-operation we invariably receive from them in ensuring that the rules are observed. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, was unduly severe on the R.A.F. He denounced them fiercely and blamed them for everything. I really cannot accept what he says. Over the past year, for example, there were 661 complaints of low flying, and of the se 415 were authorised cases:4 low flying. In 71 cases the offending aircraft belonged to other users; in 168 cases there was insufficient evidence and in only 7 was disciplinary action called for. I do not think that even the R.A.F.'s worst enemy—and I am sure the noble Lord is not that—would say that these figures supported the noble Lord's argument.
The noble Lord also, I thought, suggested that flying clubs were allowed to use training aircraft on Service airfields on Sundays. Nearly all the non-regular flying which takes place on Sundays at Service airfields is carried out by pilots of the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces who have only the week-ends in which they can keep in flying practice. Some Sunday flying is therefore inevitable. The Services do all they can by restricting hours of practice to reduce disturbance. I know of no case in which purely private flying is undertaken and causes disturbance, but if the noble Lord will let me have details I will, of course, most willingly look into them.
The noise from aircraft taking off and landing is both more serious and more difficult to deal with. I thought that here the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, was confused between low flying and aircraft taking off. I think the case he instanced of aircraft only 120 feet up was not really low flying but was probably an aircraft which had just taken off from the airfield. Although there are exceptions, it is generally true that as engines become more powerful they also become noisier.
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So technical advances are continually creating new problems and airfields about which there were previously no complaints, may, with the introduction of new aircraft, present us with a host of difficulties. Civil and military aircraft firms are studying the possibilities of "augmented lift" by such techniques as "sucking and blowing" although it is too early yet to forecast the results.
The heart of the problem, I think, is really that of airfield siting. Ideally—and I know that this is a point on which all your Lordships feel strongly—Service airfields at least should all be away from the important centres of population. But the fact is that we are so limited by strategic and logistic considerations, by the need for airfields to be sited on reasonably level ground, and on soil of adequate bearing quality, and by the need to avoid congesting the airspace, that it is absolutely unavoidable that some Service airfields should be near to major towns. Civil airports have, in any case. to be near the cities they serve, and so it becomes inevitable that many residential areas suffer from the noise of aircraft flying low overhead as they gain or lose height on taking off or landing.
Here again, the Service Departments and the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation are doing what they can to ease the problem, but I cannot pretend that there is a complete solution. Wherever possible, approach lanes are routed to avoid the most heavily populated areas. Unfortunately, residential development in the neighbourhood of many airfields is so extensive that the problem is frequently to choose the least of several evils. Nevertheless, considerable improvements have been made; and at London Airport, for example, the routes now used are a very great improvement over their predecessors. Again, sometimes it is possible to concentrate flying on the runway least likely to cause nuisance to the surrounding communities. This has been done with some success at London Airport.
On the Service side, a similar arrangement has been made at Abingdon, and although I understand that in this case the noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth does not consider that the arrangement provides a solution—as indeed it does not —he will. I know, agree that it eases the problem. The difficulty here, of course, as elsewhere, is that on occasion the prevailing wind dictates the runway to be

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used and the airfield authorities are un-able to make any choice. As a final example of the sort of action which is being taken to reduce the nuisance from aircraft taking off and landing, I should mention the restrictions which have been placed on night flying. Again, however, a certain amount of flying training has to be carried out at night, both by Service and by civil pilots, and night flights by the airline operators are unavoidable.
Finally, I come to the remarks of Lord Teviot and Lord Wise about supersonic aircraft. I assure your Lordships that very strict control is exercised over trans-sonic flight. No aircraft may fly supersonically over land at a height of less than 30,000 feet without the specific authority of the responsible Department. Indeed, apart from development flights by prototype aircraft, and in some other similar cases where the danger to the aircraft would be too great, supersonic flight is, in general, confined to areas over the sea. This is a comparatively new regulation, and it is too early to say how well it is going to work. I hope that my noble friend will be cheered to know that his representations and his journey to the Air Ministry were not in vain, as something has come of them. I listened with great interest to the speech of my noble friend Lord Falmouth. I shall study it with great care, because he knows a great deal about this subject. I am a little doubtful what a Royal Commission could do, but I will certainly look at the problem and let him know the answer.
My Lords. I do not for one moment imagine that I have satisfied your Lordships that we have overcome this difficulty —of course we have not. The only way to do that would be to stop all flying. What we are trying to do—and I think we are succeeding—is to mitigate as far as possible the inconvenience and hardships which inevitably arise. We have a long way to go, and as time goes on, and the results of research which we have in hand emerge, we shall no doubt be able to do better. At any rate, I hope your Lordships will recognise that this is a problem which the Government are taking very seriously, and a problem about which they are by no means complacent.
5.8 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, before I come to the noble Lord's reply, may I express my thanks to all
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noble Lords who have very frankly and plainly given your Lordships the benefit of their views? The noble Earl, Lord Gosford, thought I was rather harsh upon the R.A.F. I did not wish to be harsh upon anyone—but I do wish to be very severe and harsh upon some of the conditions that prevail. If, in my remarks, I implied criticism of individuals, then I am sorry. That was not my intention. I will deal with the problem of low flying in a minute. My noble friend, Lord Wise, made a comment which, if he will forgive my saying so, I thought was based on rather a fallacy. He stated that you get accustomed to noise. I have consulted eminent physicians and have discovered that we do not get used to noise. What happens is that the noise dulls the senses so that they are not responsive to it. There is no doubt that the noise of aircraft, like the noise of pneumatic drills or any other noise of that kind, has a deleterious effect on health.
Now I come to the noble Lord's reply, which was exhaustive and intensely interesting. I have only one complaint, which is that he said I was severely critical of the Royal Air Force and blamed them for everything. I think that is somewhat of an exaggeration, because I did no such thing. This is the fourth time I have addressed your Lordships on this matter and I expect there will be many more times, and if this debate has served any purpose, it has served the purpose of showing that the House is unanimous in its condemnation of this curse of noise from the air. There was no Party division whatever and even the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, agreed. There was not a dissentient voice. I expected the noble Lord to chide me— after all, I do sit on the opposite side and I am fair game, even for abuse on this subject, though of course the noble Lord has not abused me he is far too courteous to do that. But abuse would not deter me from prosecuting this issue. It is no good burking it or glossing over it. There is a bitter resentment among hundreds of thousands of people who think, to use Lord Falmouth's own language, that the Government and those in authority "could not care less." If we can do anything to combat that, it is all to the good.
The noble Lord chided me for having no solution. I did have a solution; but perhaps he missed it. No sensible person

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minds operational flying where the plane is up and gone. What they object to is this incessant circular flying at about 300 to 400 feet—what are called "circles and bumps." The noble Lord is wrong when he said this was not going on over built-up areas. I admit frankly that the R.A.F. must have low-flying instruction, but that instruction, in which the planes circle night after night, hour after hour, over the rooftops, should be done away from the people. This is being done over Abingdon, where there are 36,000 people living within a circuit of six miles. Most of the males in the area spend all their days in the Pressed Steel mills or the Morris works, in front of gigantic presses where the din is terrific, making goods for export, and they are kept awake all night by the noise of this training. It is no good the noble Lord saying this is not carried out over built-up areas. It is. I hope that we shall be able to make some progress. It is no good saying that the Air Ministry have received only 600 letters, because most people say that it is no good writing to the Air Ministry or to the Ministry of Civil Aviation. That is why they come to people like me and the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, and Members of Parliament.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I wonder whether I may interrupt the noble Lord, because I have just looked up what I did say and these are my words:
"It can be carried on only in certain defined areas which, so far as possible, are sited away from built-up areas."
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I cannot pretend to have any knowledge of any of the particular airfields the noble Lord wishes to cite. I cannot possibly know them all. But if the noble Lord will give me details of any complaints he has, I will certainly look into them and let him have an answer.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I appreciate the noble Lord's position. He is speaking from a departmental brief—
LORD CARRINGTON: No.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am not disparaging the noble Lord: I have done the same thing myself, and I know that he has to take a fact like that. But perhaps he will care to look into this point. I have cited the case of Abingdon.
LORD CARRINGTON: I will look into it.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: There are 30,000-odd people around Abingdon—is that not a built-up area? Norwich is another case—and I could mention many more. I thank the noble Lord quite sincerely, because I think that, technically, his dissertation was one of the most interesting I have heard. It was interesting to me, but whether it will bring any solace to those who are wracked in their beds every night is extremely doubtful. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at seventeen minutes past five o'clock.