Sitting of 3 May 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL
    TAF FECHAN WATER SUPPLY BILL
    As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Water Supply and Sewerage, Berkshire
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how the grant payments made for water supply and sewerage schemes in Berkshire in 1954 compare with those in 1951.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): In 1951 £44,700 was paid in grant for water supply schemes and £5,625 for sewerage schemes. In 1954 the figures were £24,800 for water and £73,575 for sewerage.
    Mr. Hurd: Can the Minister assure us that it is the Government's intention to press on with this good performance so that all the Berkshire villages can in the next few years look forward to new and better sanitation?
    Mr. Deedes: I hope as more urgent water schemes are completed it will be possible to do more and more for the more urgent village sewerage schemes. That is what we are trying to do.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Do the figures for 1954 include water supply and sewerage for the new town of Bracknell?
    Mr. Deedes: I think that is a separate question.

    Town and Country Planning (Claims)
    Mr. MacCollasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many claims have been established for the purposes of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1954; the total value of the claims; and the total area represented by the claim holdings.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Duncan Sandys): Compensation under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1954, is based upon claims established under the 1947 Act. These had to be submitted before July, 1949. In respect of England and Wales there were some 415,000 of such established claims representing a total development value of about £350 million. Information about the area to which they relate is, I am afraid, not available.
    Mr. MacColl: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for such information as he has given us, but would it not be desirable to know the area covered? As compensation will not be paid except in respect of these claims, surely it is desirable to know what area of the country is covered by the possibility of compensation?
    Mr. Sandys: I do not know what instructions were given to the Central Land Board by the Labour Government but they did not, in fact, ask for particulars of acreage in relation to claims.

    Electric Signs (South Bank, London)
    Lieut-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what limit he has decided to impose on the size of electric signs on the South Bank of the River Thames.
    Mr. Sandys: No hard-and-fast standards are applied.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Is the Minister aware that the Lambeth Borough Council has been trying to impose a limit of 3 ft. on the size of the lettering on signs, and that in every case where an aggrieved advertiser has appealed against that the Minister has decided against the council? Has he any idea to what limit these signs can go—or is the sky the limit? Does he know that an application is pending for a sign with letters 13½ ft. high?
    Mr. Sandys: Having, like the hon. and gallant Member, once been a Member for Lambeth, I can assure him that I have no prejudice against it.

  HOUSING

    Overcrowding
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will circularise local authorities recommending that in the case of particularly distressing cases of mothers suffering from mental and nervous breakdown promoted by overcrowding they should establish joint committees with adjacent authorities in order to deal with these cases according to their urgent medical need and not according to their residence.
    Mr. Sandys: I have great sympathy with those suffering from the evils of overcrowding and I am taking active steps to help local authorities in the large cities in tackling the problem of urban congestion.
    Mr. Sorensen: That is a general reply to a quite specific question dealing with a small but very distressing type of housing case. Would not the Minister, therefore, consider the proposal, which is implicit in my Question, that where there is an unusual chronic case which may lead to the mental breakdown of the person involved, he should recommend that the borough concerned should get in touch with neighbouring boroughs to see whether they have accommodation for that particular kind of case?
    Mr. Sandys: I have as much sympathy as has the hon. Member in connection with this problem, but I think that local authorities can be relied upon to cooperate with one another to relieve cases of special hardship, and I must be a little careful not to overload them with advice.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not the Minister sometimes make recommendations to local authorities?

    New Houses
    Wing Commander Bullusasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many new houses have been built in England and Wales from October, 1951, until the latest available date.
    Mr. Sandys: Between October, 1951, and March, 1955, 903,563 have been completed in England and Wales.
    Wing Commander Bullus: While thanking my right hon. Friend and congratulating him and his predecessor on this magnificent performance, may I ask whether he has the figures available for the whole of Great Britain for the same period?
    Mr. Sandys: I have not the precise figures but I can tell my hon. and gallant Friend that since this Government have been in office well over a million houses have been completed in Great Britain.
    Mr. Jay: May I take it that the figure given by the Minister refers not to houses which were commenced after October, 1951, but to those completed after that date, many of which—and perhaps he can tell me how many—were begun before that date?
    Mr. Sandys: Of course it includes houses which were started before October, 1951, but the position at the end of March, 1955, is that the carry-over is considerably greater than that which we inherited from the Labour Party.
    Mr. Shinwell: Could this Question by any chance have been associated with the coming Election?
    Mr. Sandys: I suspected that the supplementary question by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) had some connection with it.

    Local Authority Houses (Sale)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government approximately how many local authorities have made available for purchase houses owned by them; and how many have been sold.
    Mr. Sandys: Up to the end of March, 3,387 council houses have been sold by 288 local authorities in England and Wales.
    Mr. Sorensen: Should I be correct in assuming that the anticipation on the part of some authorities was that a much larger percentage of tenants would apply for the purchase of their houses?
    Mr. Sandys: I am afraid I cannot say what their assumptions were.
    Mr. Gibson: Does not the Minister agree, in view of the hullabaloo made about this when the Government introduced its proposal to sell these houses, that these figures show what an enormous flop it has been?
    Mr. Sandys: If I remember, much of the hullabaloo was made by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Having regard to the fact that in the Tory Party's Campaign Guide for 1955—the new encyclopaedia—page 190, it is stated that brick production has risen by only 7 per cent; and having regard to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman takes such pride in his house building achievements since 1951, can the Minister tell us what the Tory Government have neglected to build? If housing production has risen by so much while brick production has risen by only 7 per cent., what have the Government failed to build which they should have built?
    Mr. Sandys: I cannot see the connection between the hon. Member's supplementary question and the Question on the Order Paper, but in view of it I think I am entitled to say that I regard it as inconceivable that any party with such a record should fail to be returned at the next General Election.

  NATIONAL SERVICE (ELECTRONIC ENGINEERS)
  Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that American companies are offering salaries of £3,500 per annum plus facilities for fishing and sailing, and modern domestic accommodation and travelling allowances to young electronic engineers, who are already in short supply in British industry where their pay averages £1,400 per annum; and if he will exempt from National Service men who are training to become electronic engineers.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I am aware that vacancies in the United States for electronic engineers have been advertised in this country. I am not clear what bearing this has on the second part of the Question, but deferment is already given to men taking approved courses of study leading to a recognised professional qualification in engineering, including electronic engineering.
  Mr. Osborne: In view of the fact that these men have a vital part to play in the next decade, will the Minister do what he can to see that the supply of them is increased and to keep them at home if possible?
  Mr. Watkinson: I agree, and that is why we try to give them deferment.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is it Tory policy to prevent young men from improving themselves?
  Mr. Watkinson: The contrary is the whole basis of Tory policy.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the figures relating to the unemployment of men and women, respectively, in the City of Aberdeen show that they were greater in February, this year than at 31st; December, 1953, or 31st December, 1954; if he will make a statement indicating the cause of this rise; what the figures are in each trade to the latest convenient date; and what steps he is taking to reduce this unemployment.
    Mr. Watkinson: Yes, Sir. There was the usual seasonal increase after December in Aberdeen as elsewhere in the country, and it is now giving place to the usual improvement. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table of the numbers unemployed in each of the main industries in Aberdeen for the months of February, April and December of 1953 and 1954, and February and April of this year, from which the hon. and learned Member will see that the February, 1955, figure is lower than the corresponding figures for 1954 and 1953.
    Mr. Hughes: May I congratulate the Minister on giving a factual rather than a propagandist answer—unlike his predecessor—to this Question, and may I ask how much of the diminution in employment in Aberdeen is due to the restrictions which this Government placed on raw materials for the industries in Aberdeen?
    Mr. Watkinson: That is another question. I think the hon. and learned Member had better look at the vast table of figures which I have got for him.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that this cannot be fobbed off as a seasonal increase? Is he aware that the monthly average unemployment in Scotland over the last three years has been about 4,500 more than in the last three years of the Labour Government?
    Mr. Watkinson: I did not fob it off as a seasonal increase, but every hon. Member knows that unemployment is higher in the winter than in the summer.
    Following is the table:

    NUMBERS OF PERSONS REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED IN ABERDEEN

    Industry

    1953

    1954

    1955

    February

    April

    December

    February

    April

    December

    February

    April

    M.

    F.

    Total

    M.

    F.

    Total

    M.

    F.

    Total

    M.

    F.

    Total

    M.

    F.

    Total

    M.

    F.

    Total

    M.

    F.

    Total

    M.

    F.

    Total

    Agriculture, horticulture and forestry

    121

    25

    146

    107

    12

    119

    139

    27

    166

    144

    20

    164

    113

    11

    124

    108

    14

    122

    132

    15

    147

    90

    9

    99

    Fishing

    292

    —

    292

    219

    —

    219

    186

    —

    186

    200

    1

    201

    155

    —

    155

    159

    1

    160

    178

    1

    179

    135

    —

    135

    Shipbuilding and ship-repairing

    159

    —

    159

    64

    2

    66

    49

    1

    50

    67

    1

    68

    62

    1

    63

    26

    —

    26

    58

    —

    58

    45

    1

    46

    Non-electrical engineering

    65

    4

    69

    51

    1

    52

    53

    1

    54

    64

    3

    67

    45

    4

    49

    41

    3

    44

    56

    3

    59

    37

    4

    41

    Food industries

    106

    92

    198

    75

    92

    167

    95

    75

    170

    87

    94

    181

    80

    94

    174

    61

    88

    149

    76

    83

    159

    53

    80

    133

    Wood and cork manufactures, furniture, etc.

    154

    17

    171

    99

    12

    111

    132

    7

    139

    173

    21

    194

    118

    20

    138

    107

    16

    123

    133

    24

    157

    107

    21

    128

    Building and civil engineering contracting

    440

    1

    441

    237

    1

    238

    278

    4

    282

    424

    2

    426

    204

    5

    209

    205

    3

    208

    350

    3

    353

    161

    5

    166

    Road transport

    54

    6

    60

    41

    5

    46

    43

    4

    47

    61

    4

    65

    49

    11

    60

    38

    9

    47

    52

    9

    61

    39

    7

    46

    Sea transport

    133

    1

    134

    78

    1

    79

    92

    —

    92

    85

    —

    85

    68

    1

    69

    71

    —

    71

    79

    2

    81

    62

    —

    62

    Distributive trades

    198

    173

    371

    183

    165

    348

    172

    125

    297

    194

    192

    386

    203

    178

    381

    201

    142

    343

    265

    181

    446

    209

    165

    374

    National government service

    31

    16

    47

    32

    5

    37

    24

    21

    45

    29

    23

    52

    27

    17

    44

    19

    14

    33

    20

    21

    41

    18

    16

    34

    Local government service

    107

    21

    128

    104

    21

    125

    96

    17

    113

    113

    24

    137

    90

    23

    113

    96

    26

    122

    93

    21

    114

    66

    19

    85

    Professional services

    36

    63

    99

    36

    55

    91

    33

    59

    92

    38

    58

    96

    42

    54

    96

    38

    41

    79

    31

    54

    85

    28

    49

    77

    Sport, other recreations and betting

    72

    18

    90

    64

    12

    76

    66

    7

    73

    80

    6

    86

    56

    7

    63

    78

    9

    87

    93

    13

    106

    55

    8

    63

    Catering, hotels, etc.

    95

    123

    218

    62

    115

    177

    89

    109

    198

    91

    111

    202

    73

    129

    202

    64

    111

    175

    73

    129

    202

    49

    110

    159

    All other industries and services

    546

    333

    879

    457

    285

    742

    454

    240

    694

    507

    264

    771

    454

    256

    710

    356

    213

    569

    438

    257

    695

    336

    228

    564

    2,609

    893

    3,502

    1,909

    784

    2,693

    2,001

    697

    2,698

    2,357

    824

    3,181

    1,839

    811

    2,650

    1,668

    690

    2,358

    2,127

    816

    2,943

    1,490

    722

    2,212

    Factory Inspectorate (Cost)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour the total cost of the Factory Inspectorate for the last available year and the cost in 1938.
    Mr. Watkinson: The expenditure by the Ministry of Labour and National Service on the salaries, travelling costs, etc., of the Factory Inspectorate for the financial year commencing 1st April, 1954, was £727,400. Comparable expenditure by the Home Office for the year commencing 1st April, 1938, was £217,169. Additional costs were incurred by other Government Departments as allied services in respect of premises, stationery, etc., but the figures are not available.
    Dr. Stross: Would the hon. Member accept the view that, despite the significant rise in the cost since 1938, which probably has only kept pace with the rise in the cost of living, there is a good deal of evidence that the Inspectorate needs to be strengthened both numerically and in status if it is to do all the work which is required of it?
    Mr. Watkinson: As for strengthening the Inspectorate numerically, as I think the hon. Members knows, it is now very nearly up to strength. I am entirely in agreement with him about raising its status.
    Mr. Robens: What is the size of the establishment today and how many inspectors are required to bring it up to its establishment?
    Mr. Watkinson: All I can say without notice is that the Inspectorate is only a few under establishment at the present moment. We hope to bring it up to its full establishment.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Could my hon. Friend estimate what would be the cost of the non-factory inspectorate which would be required for the implementation of the Gowers Report?
    Mr. Watkinson: Not, I am afraid, without notice.

    Building Industry (Accident Rate)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour to what causes he attributes the increase in the accident rate in the
    1490
    building industry by 50 per cent. between 1948 and 1953 in spite of the introduction of his Regulations in 1948; and how he proposes to lower the rate at which men are injured in this industry.
    Mr. Watkinson: The apparent increase in the accident rate at building operations can be attributed, in part at least, to the efforts constantly being made by the Factory Inspectorate to secure a better understanding by employers of their obligation to report accidents in accordance with the provisions of the Factories Act. Fatal accidents, which are reported almost without exception, have not increased.
    The accident rate will be reduced by better observance of the safety Regulations on the part of employers and workers, and the Factory Inspectorate will continue to give close attention to ensuring that these obligations are understood and complied with. The Chief Inspector is now carrying out a special investigation of accidents on certain building operations to see whether any further action can usefully be taken.
    Dr. Stross: While thanking the Parliamentary Secretary for his comprehensive reply, may I ask him whether, in view of the fact that these Regulations are perhaps the most advanced which we have for any industry, the fact that there has been an apparently significant increase in the accident rate suggests that there is again and again a breach of the Regulations? Will he change his mind about safety committees, and have their existence enforced by statutory methods rather than leave their existence entirely to voluntary creation?
    Mr. Watkinson: No, Sir. The problem in the building industry, as we see it, is one of getting the existing Regulations properly carried out, and that is a matter for my inspectors.
    Mr. Lindgren: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that both the frequency and severity rates of accidents have increased, and that those in the building trade attribute a measure of that increase to the fact that there is a greater degree of sub-contracting work done now, so that the main contractor has not a responsibility for plant and equipment, while many of the sub-contractors are working on a shoe string with equipment?
    Mr. Watkinson: I should not like to accept that as the main cause by any means.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Can the Minister take steps to bring the existence of these Regulations to the knowledge of those concerned in the building industry, because there has been evidence in recent cases of ignorance of their terms and conditions? Wider publicity for the Regulations might make some contribution to a solution of this problem. Further, if in recent years there have been prosecutions for non-compliance with the building Regulations, what has been the result of them? There is disturbing evidence of widespread failure to comply with the Regulations and it is important to know what action has been taken.
    Mr. Watkinson: I certainly cannot reply to the second part of that supplementary question without notice. As far as the first part is concerned, the Chief Inspector is now carrying out a special investigation to see what steps we can take to make the Regulations more widely known.

    Furniture and Upholstery Industry
    Mr. Albuasked the Minister of Labour the numbers of unemployed workers in the furniture industry at the latest convenient dates in the United Kingdom and in the Tottenham-Edmonton area, respectively.
    Mr. Watkinson: At 14th March, the latest date for which figures for the United Kingdom are available, there were 2,111 persons, whose last employment was in the furniture and upholstery industry, registered as wholly unemployed, and 3,113 registered as temporarily stopped, at the employment exchanges. On 18th April, the corresponding figures for the area covered by the Tottenham, Wood Green and Leyton Employment Exchanges were 127 wholly unemployed and 447 temporarily stopped.
    Mr. Albu: Is the Minister aware that the figures of unemployment in the furniture industry are rising? Is he now discussing with his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade some relaxation of the hire-purchase control
    1492
    Regulations, in accordance with the request made by both sides of the furniture industry?
    Mr. Watkinson: The position is that employment in the furniture industry is better than it was at this time last year. I quite agree that the temporarily-stopped position is worse, although not very much worse. We must wait and see how the position develops over the next few weeks.
    Mr. Robens: Does the Parliamentary Secretary attribute the rise in unemployment in the furniture industry to the recent restrictions imposed on hire purchase?
    Mr. Watkinson: It is very difficult to say. Temporary unemployment is not unusual at this time of the year in the furniture industry.

  SCOTLAND

    Housing, Sutherland
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied that Sutherland County Council is acting in accordance with Section 48 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1950, in view of the circumstances outlined in a letter of 2nd February addressed to the Joint Under-Secretary of State by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. James Stuart): Under this Section, it is primarily for the county council itself to determine when it should inspect its district and submit proposals for putting an end to overcrowding. Having regard to the good housing progress being made in the county, I would not feel justified in interfering in the matter.
    Sir D. Robertson: Is it not the case that my letter dated 2nd February still remains unanswered in regard to the very serious overcrowding of a family consisting of a man, wife and two children, who are living in two very small rooms? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied, as the county council apparently has no intention of allocating this family a house, that it is not his duty to do so?
    Mr. Stuart: I think my hon. Friend is well aware that Parliament handed over

    1493
    this duty to the local authorities, in connection with the allocation of new houses. According to my hon. Friend's letter to the Joint Under-Secretary of State on 2nd February, he admits that a house was offered, although it was some little way away, no doubt, and that it was refused. I have asked the county council for its observations.

    Glasgow Overspill
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the terms on which agreement has been reached between him and Glasgow Corporation in regard to the new town at Cumbernauld; and what plans he has in view to deal generally with Glasgow's overspill.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The corporation has agreed to pay the statutory rate contribution for 10 years in respect of each house at Cumbernauld let to a tenant nominated by the corporation. The corporation understands that I will ask it to make an additional payment in respect of such houses, if it is found that it has to make such additional payments to secure the provision of houses for its nominees in other areas. The exact amount of such additional payments at Cumbernauld would be negotiated later, but would not exceed one-third of the deficit on the undertaking. As regards further measures for dealing with Glasgow overspill, I have suggested a conference with the Corporation of Glasgow and the Clyde Valley Planning Advisory Committee, to be followed later by discussions with the local authorities concerned.
    Mr. Rankin: May I direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention to that part of the memorandum on this subject, which he kindly sent me, in which he points out that
    "… the Cumbernauld project will not of itself be sufficient to provide an adequate number of houses to meet Glasgow's needs which can no longer be satisfied within the limits of the city itself."
    The right hon. Gentleman further points out that
    "… special legislation may be necessary to assist the promotion of arrangements between Glasgow and the receiving authorities for dealing with the problem."
    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am quoting from the memorandum. May I
    1494
    ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in his reference to special legislation, he means to apply the New Towns Act to the overspill generally, as he is doing in the case of Cumbernauld?
    Mr. Stuart: I do not want to go into details at this stage, because delicate negotiations are going on, but the hon. Member can take it that legislation on the lines of the Town Development Act which is applicable to England and Wales may be necessary to deal with this very serious and pressing problem.
    Mr. Woodburn: Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it would be a tragedy if this new town became a mere dormitory for Glasgow and had no industry or economic basis for its own life? If there is to be a new town, will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind the necessity of providing for the transfer of derelict factories from the overspill area?
    Mr. Stuart: The right hon. Gentleman is well aware that in the new town of East Kilbride we have been very successful in the matter to which he has referred. Cumbernauld is in the Development Area and is entitled to the facilities available under the Distribution of Industry Act.

    Senior Secondary Education, Sutherland
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consider setting up an annexe to Golspie Secondary School in Lairg and Rogart schools, each with one resident teacher, supported by visiting specialists from Golspie, Dornoch, or Helmsdale, thus saving a number of pupils having to travel to and from Golspie each day, or to live there in a hostel or other lodgings, and avoiding the absenteeism, with loss of education, which is liable to happen at present.
    Mr. J. Stuart: This is primarily a matter for the Sutherland education authority, which, I understand, has called for a report on the existing arrangements for the provision of senior secondary education throughout the county. I shall be prepared to consider sympathetically any proposals it may make after consideration of the report.
    Sir D. Robertson: Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that there is widespread discontent among the parents, who

    1495
    naturally want their children educated at home, as other people do, and who object to journeys of up to four hours a day by children going and coming between school and home?
    Mr. Stuart: According to my information, there is dissatisfaction in a certain quarter but, with the exception of that quarter, to which no doubt my hon. Friend refers, the general body of parents have not complained about the arrangements. Of course, I will consider any suggestions for improvement.

    Forth and Clyde Canal (Accident Prevention)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now ask the Technical Committee representing the Corporation of Glasgow, the British Transport Commission and the Scottish Home Department to consider and report how best the danger of accidents can be effectively removed from known sites on the Forth and Clyde Canal, including the Glasgow branch.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The Technical Committee referred to was appointed to consider the particular problem of the Monkland Canal and it concluded that the only effective way of removing the danger of accidents was to fill in the waterway. This cannot, of course, be done where the use of a canal has not been discontinued. While, therefore, I sympathise with the hon. Member's anxieties, I do not think that any purpose would be served by setting up a further technical committee at this stage, more particularly as recommendations about the future of the Forth and Clyde Canal are made in the Report of the Board of Survey of Canals and Inland Waterways recently submitted to the British Transport Commission.
    Mr. Hannan: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, as a result of the recommendations of the previous Report and the work carried out on the Monkland Canal, accidents were reduced? Does he realise that what is required is a committee to make suggestions of a similar temporary character in order to cut down the high death rate among children?
    Mr. Stuart: I sympathise with the hon. Member but, as I am sure he will readily admit, it is a very different matter where
    1496
    a canal is in use, because we cannot fill in such a canal. We all know the great attraction that a canal and any water has for children, but we cannot fill in the Forth and Clyde Canal. The British Transport Commission has received a Report on this matter. I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion but at present I am not satisfied that any useful purpose would be served.

    Dentists and Dental Mechanics (Remuneration)
    Mr. N. Macphersonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland to make a statement regarding the remuneration of dentists and dental mechanics in Scotland.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The scale of fees for dentists in general practice under the National Health Service is common to dental practitioners in Scotland and in England and Wales. Regulations have been laid before Parliament cancelling, with effect from 1st May, 1955, the 10 per cent. reduction to which the 1949 scale has been subject since 1950. These dentists are required by the National Health Service Regulations to pay then-mechanics at rates not less favourable than those approved by the National Joint Council for the Craft of Dental Technicians.
    Mr. Macpherson: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the scale of remuneration for dental mechanics is proving sufficient to attract into this employment the necessary number of workers?
    Mr. Stuart: I am afraid that I could not answer that question without notice, because that is not a matter with which I have to deal. They are paid at rates negotiated on the Whitley Council scales, which range from £380 to £670.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Sports Pavilion, Regent's Park
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Works if he is aware of the inadequate size and poor condition of the sports pavilion in Regent's Park, which provides only eight dressing-rooms for the 400 cricketers who play in the park at weekends; and if he will take steps to rebuild and enlarge it at an early date.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Nigel Birch): The pavilion will be enlarged and improved but I cannot hold out prospects of an early start on the work.
    Mr. Robinson: Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman accepts financial responsibility for this work, and can he give some idea when work can be commenced on this pavilion, because the present arrangements are totally inadequate? Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's Department accepts fees from the users of the pavilion?
    Mr. Birch: I am not sure about the fees. This is war damage and therefore we accept responsibility; but it is a big job costing £30,000, and it has to take its turn.

    Atomic Establishments (Security Arrangements)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Works how many agents of the American Federal Bureau of Investigation are employed in British atomic establishments; and on what duties they are engaged.
    Mr. Birch: None, Sir.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Whilst welcoming the Minister's assurance that these arrangements are not being pursued, may I ask whether he can confirm that the United States Government have no longer any doubts about the adequacy of our security arrangements which prevent the fullest exchange of information between the United States Government and this country?
    Mr. Birch: As the hon. and gallant Member knows, the Atomic Energy Authority denied 10 days ago that there was any truth in the story. There is no truth in it. We have, of course, discussed questions of procedure with regard to security, and, as far as I know, the Americans are quite satisfied.

  RESEARCH (POLIOMYELITIS VACCINE)
  Dr. Strossasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the
  1498
  Council, whether, in view of the difficulty in obtaining a sufficient number of monkeys to provide the new vaccine for use against poliomyelitis, he will encourage by all possible means research on the use of an alternative medium.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. J. R. Bevins): The current programme of poliomyelitis research co-ordinated by the Medical Research Council may show whether there is any practicable alternative to the use of monkeys in preparing a poliomyelitis vaccine, but I am advised that an adequate substitute for monkeys is unlikely to be found in the near future for a vaccine of the Salk type. It is hoped, however, that adequate supplies of monkeys will be available again shortly.
  Dr. Stross: Whilst thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask whether he will not accept the view that it is rather nauseating to think in terms of breeding and destroying so many of these tiny creatures whose kidneys have to be used for this purpose? Will he give an assurance that every possible means will be tried to find a substitute, which in the long run may be better as well as simpler?
  Mr. Bevins: I can assure the hon. Member that research to find a promising substitute is going on.
  Mr. Philip Bell: Will my hon. Friend consider carrying out experiments on Gadarene swine?
  Mr. Peter Freeman: In view of the fact that at least 12 children have already been killed by this vaccine, will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that no injection with this vaccine of any child in this country will be permitted without the prior sanction of the parent or guardian? Will he also indicate what methods he proposes to adopt to prove that this vaccine is efficient and free from danger without experimenting on small children?
  Mr. Bevins: These questions hardly arise out of the Question, but I can assure the hon. Member that before any of this type of vaccine is used in this country it will be very carefully tested on monkeys or some other suitable animal.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Regular Engagements (Prolongations)
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War the number of men who enlisted on Regular engagements of three years with the Colours and four years with the Reserve during the period 1st November, 1951, to 31st March, 1952; the number of such men transferred to the Army Reserve during the period 1st November, 1954, to 31st March, 1955; and the number still serving with the Colours.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head): Figures of prolongations in the form requested will, as stated, be available during the month of May.
    Mr. Wigg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he gave the House an assurance that the figures would be available in May and that I put this Question on the Order Paper many weeks ago? Is it the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is now concealing the information because it will reveal that his three-year policy has completely failed?
    Mr. Head: I say again, as I have stated before, that the figures will be available during the month of May, as promised.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it not true to say that the number of men who are reengaging is declining, and can the right hon. Gentleman give the cause of that?
    Mr. Head: I think that the right hon. Gentleman would do well to await the figures.
    Mr. Shinwell: Surely the right hon. Gentleman has been long enough in his office to have the figures in his head.
    Mr. Head: If the right hon. Gentleman had followed what the figures are about, he would realise that a special statistical research, which I am having carried out in order to make this matter abundantly clear, is necessary to arrive at them.
    Mr. Wigg: Is it not a fact that the estimate of 33⅓ per cent. prolongations will not be realised by half, that the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly well aware of that fact, and that he is grossly deceiving the House?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member should not say that another hon. or right hon. Member is grossly deceiving the House. It is out of order.
    Mr. Wigg: I gladly withdraw, Mr. Speaker, and substitute that the right hon. Gentleman is fully aware of the information but chooses not to tell the House about it.
    Mr. Head: I utterly and bitterly resent that. The hon. Member knows perfectly well that I have not received this information, and he knows perfectly well that he is not making a statement worthy of himself when he says that 33⅓ per cent. was a forecast. It was never a forecast. I have denied it time after time. It is an optimum.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are delighted to see this new spirit, and that we hope it may do him some good in the Election?

    Soldiers' Deaths, Austria (Report of Inquiry)
    Mr. Albuasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has received the Report of the court of inquiry into the barn fire in Austria in which a number of British soldiers lost their lives; and whether he will make known its findings.
    Mr. Head: The proceedings of the court arrived yesterday and I have not yet had the opportunity to study them fully. It is, however, plain that there was not sufficient evidence to determine the actual cause of the fire. There is no evidence to show that any member of the 1st Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, was directly to blame.
    Immediately it was known that men were trapped in the barn most courageous efforts were made to rescue them. I should like particularly to pay tribute to the gallant action of the late Second-Lieutenant Heming and Private Simpson, who went back into the room occupied by No. 7 Platoon in order to waken the men who were sleeping there. I would also like to express appreciation of the work carried out by the United States Forces and the aid given by Austrian civilians and gendarmerie.
    Mr. Albu: In view of the many stories in the Press and the very considerable anxiety caused to parents by rumours, would the Secretary of State, when he has an opportunity fully to examine the Report, consider making it public?
    Mr. Head: When I have studied the Report I shall be only too pleased to make a statement giving a summary of it. The Report is one of a court of inquiry and is therefore privileged, but I will certainly give a summary of the facts.

    Regimental Dinner, Blackdown (Mess Dress)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if he has examined the mess rules of the Officers' Mess, 2nd Basic Training Battalion, Royal Army Ordnance Corps, a copy of which has been sent to him; and if he will make a statement, with particular reference to sheet 3, paragraph 10, in which rules for dress on dining-in nights and regimental guest nights, contrary to Queen's Regulations, are stated to be in accordance with the direction of a War Office letter.
    Mr. Head: I have examined the mess rules, of which the hon. Gentleman sent me a copy. Paragraph 10 is not in accordance with Army Council Instructions and I have given orders that it shall be amended. As I would have said in reply to a previous Question, which in fact was not asked, I am specially drawing the attention of all commanding officers to the existing rules.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if he has now verified the dates on which Mr. P. J. R. Breslin sold his Service dress, notified senior officers in his battalion that he had done so, and attended dinner in mess on regimental guest nights wearing battledress; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir. I have gone into this question most carefully. On the first occasion when this happened, the commanding officer knew that Mr. Breslin had Service dress and asked the company commander to ensure that he wore it on future occasions. I am informed that the company commander did not speak to Mr. Breslin nor did he inform the commanding officer that Mr. Breslin had sold his Service dress. The commanding officer was, therefore, unaware of what
    1502
    had happened, and when Mr. Breslin appeared for a second time in battledress the commanding officer assumed that his instructions, sent through the company commander, had been ignored.
    Mr. Driberg: Was the commanding officer in order in the first instance in sending such a message instructing this officer to wear Service dress?
    Mr. Head: He was perfectly in order in asking the company commander to find out why Mr. Breslin had not worn his Service dress which he believed him to have—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] That is perfectly in order, because he thought he had the dress but had purposely not worn it. As I pointed out, where the commanding officer was wrong was in the drawing up of the mess rules.
    Mr. Shinwell: In order to clear up any misunderstanding, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Service dress is paid for by the officer and, therefore, he is entitled to dispose of it as he pleases.
    Mr. Head: He was perfectly entitled to dispose of it as he pleased. That has never been in question.

    Deputy Assistant Chaplain General, Salisbury Plain District
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if he has now held a full inquiry into the conduct of the Deputy Assistant Chaplain General, Salisbury Plain District, in regard to the Reverend J. P. Stevenson, in accordance with paragraph 4 of the Report from the Committee of Privileges; and if he will made a statement.
    Mr. Head: I have inquired fully into this case and I am satisfied that when the Deputy Assistant Chaplain General, Salisbury Plain District, was informed that one of his subordinates had communicated with a Member of Parliament on a matter of which he was not previously aware, it was quite in order that he should interview this officer. I am also satisfied that the Deputy Assistant Chaplain General tried only to persuade Mr. Stevenson to make factual corrections to the information contained in the letter.
    As regards the right of soldiers to communicate with Members of Parliament, I can only repeat the assurance which I gave the hon. Member at Question time last Tuesday.
    Mr. Driberg: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in the holding of this inquiry, any statements were taken from Mr. Stevenson as well as other chaplains and officers concerned?
    Mr. Head: I have a great deal of information as a result of this inquiry and if there are any particular details which the hon. Gentleman wants perhaps he would let me know, but I am satisfied, as I have stated, that there was really no intention by the Deputy Assistant Chaplain General of interferring with the rights of Mr. Stevenson.
    Mr. Driberg: With all respect, while that is satisfactory as far as it goes, does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the dissolution of Parliament is very near, and may I take it he does not wish to leave any impression at all that Mr. Stevenson was wrong in this matter? If there was a genuine misunderstanding perhaps he would say so, but will he completely clear and exonerate Mr. Stevenson of any improper conduct?
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir, I would not for a moment deny that Mr. Stevenson was acting in accordance with what he believed to be his duty.

    General Election (Broadcasts)
    Mr. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for War what steps he is taking to make sure that all political broadcasts during the General Election are given in full on overseas services broadcasts wherever the British Army is employed overseas.
    Mr. Head: The complete series of political broadcasts which is to be given between 7th and 21st May will be relayed by all stations of the Forces Broadcasting Service at the best listening times. Wide publicity is being given to these arrangements.
    Mr. Teeling: Can my right hon. Friend say whether this happened at previous Elections or is this the first time?
    Mr. Head: I should not like to say without notice, but to the best of my knowledge it happened at the last Election.
    Mr. Woodburn: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the men are compelled to listen to these broadcasts?
    Mr. Head: Listening to these matters is entirely voluntary.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the speech last night by the President of the Board of Trade, financed by the Government Hospitality Fund, which was put out as the main item in the B.B.C. news this morning, with heavy political implications, will also be relayed to these Service men?
    Mr. Head: I could not answer that question without notice.
    Mr. Ede: Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the comments of the troops to be broadcast, too?
    Mr. Head: I will try to send the right hon. Gentleman a confidential summary afterwards.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Subsidised Wheat (Imports)
    Mr. Hurdasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now consider what action within the terms of General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs should be taken to prevent the disposal here of surplus French wheat carrying an export bounty, particularly during the harvest period when it is difficult for our wheat growers to find a ready market for their grain.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. A. R. W. Low): As my hon. Friend is aware, the system of guarantees operated under the Agriculture Act, 1947, affords a protection to farmers in this country. We shall continue to watch the effects on the home market of imports of subsidised wheat.
    Mr. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that the fact of these subsidised exports from France will be taken into account when the Government are considering anti-dumping legislation?
    Mr. Low: As we have announced, we shall be seeking the necessary legislative powers in connection with anti-dumping and countervailing duties. We will, of course, consider if there is a case for such an imposition in matters of this sort.
    Mr. T. Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman say who benefits the most by the import of this dumped wheat?
    Mr. Low: We get the wheat, and I understand it is wanted.
    Mr. Williams: Who benefits financially?
    Mr. Low: That is another question.
    Mr. Bottomley: Is it not contrary to the spirit of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade that there should be export bounties, and cannot the Government take strong action to make their views known?
    Mr. Low: We have taken strong action in the recent discussion on G.A.T.T., much stronger than was taken by our predecessors. As a result, it has been agreed that when the revised G.A.T.T. comes into force export subsidies on primary products will be banned if they are applied so as to obtain more than an equitable share of the world export trade. That is a great improvement on the G.A.T.T. left to us.

    Colonial Goods (Imports)
    Mr. Peytonasked the President of the Board of Trade when he expects to be able to make a statement on the question of the right of free entry into this country of goods manufactured in the Colonies, particularly those Colonies where prevailing wage rates are very much lower than in the Unitied Kingdom.
    Mr. Low: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be referring to this matter in the course of a statement which, with the permission of the House, he will be making after Questions today on problems at present confronting the cotton textile industry.
    Mr. Peyton: While looking forward with some eagerness to that statement, and while expressing the hope that it will cover the situation of the gloving industry, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that during the 15 months that have elapsed since I first raised this problem of the plight of this industry competition has become increasingly severe and that, for instance, the fabric gloves imported in March of this year amount to 48,000 dozen as opposed to 4,000 dozen in the corresponding month last year? Is he also aware that this industry is really looking for action on the part of the Government and is further hoping that when this action is taken the vocabulary of the Board of
    1506
    Trade will be slightly wider than "bearing things in mind" and "having nothing to add"?
    Mr. Low: This question refers not to gloves but to the right of free entry of goods manufactured in the Colonies. I appreciate what my hon. Friend is saying, and I am aware that no one has been more active than he has in pressing this matter forcibly and consistently on the Government.
    Mr. Awbery: Would it not be a better remedy to increase the wages of the low-paid workers in our Colonies?

    Roumanian Trade Delegation (Negotiations)
    Mr. Osborneasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made towards an Anglo-Roumanian trade agreement; and if he will make a statement on the negotiations so far completed with the Roumanian trade delegation that has been in London for the past few weeks.
    Mr. Low: These negotiations cover both finance and trade, and I would prefer to wait until the negotiations are completed before I make any statement.
    Mr. Osborne: These negotiations have been going on since about Christmas time. Can my right hon. Friend say when he expects them to be completed?
    Mr. Low: No, Sir. These are rather difficult negotiations, and, while I am as anxious as my hon. Friend that they should be completed, it would not be proper for me to" say anything more while they are going on.

    Knitted Glove Industry
    Mr. Jannerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, owing to the further deterioration in the knitted glove industry in Leicester and elsewhere, a considerable number of workers have now been laid off, and that the position of the industry as a whole is jeopardised; and whether he will now take steps to assist it.
    Mr. Low: I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to the hon. Member on 5th April.
    Mr. Janner: Has the right hon. Gentleman made any inquiries at all which have shown him that the answer he gave

    1507
    was entirely incorrect and that, in fact, 30 per cent. of the employees have been laid off and have gone into other industries? Will he also make some attempt to find out what the correct position is, and say what he can do to help this industry?
    Mr. Low: I have made further inquiries since I gave the answer to the hon. Gentleman and I find that the information which I gave to him then was entirely correct. I am still informed that there is no unemployment in the glove industry. It is quite true that some have been transferred to other industries, where they are working on full time.
    Mr. Janner: Will the right hon. Gentleman refer to Mr. Kenniwell, who is a director of the National Hosiery Manufacturers' Federation and has given the unemployment figure—those laid off—as 30 per cent. of the industry's labour force?
    Mr. Low: As I have told the hon. Gentleman, so far as I am aware nobody is unemployed in the industry.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Income Tax (Budget Proposals)
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he estimates will be the change in the number of persons paying Income Tax in 1955–56, compared with 1954–55, allowing both for increasing wages and salaries, and for the tax remissions in this year's Budget.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): About 16½ million people—counting husband and wife as one—paid tax in 1954–55. Recent wage increases and increased employment would have brought this figure up to about 17½ million, or about 19½ million, counting married women separately, in 1955–56. The Budget proposals will take nearly 2½ million individual taxpayers out of taxation, or about 2 million people, counting husband and wife as one. The number left paying tax in 1955–56 will, therefore, be about 15½ million, counting husband and wife as one, or about 17 million, counting married women separately.
    Mr. Jay: Does this mean that the figure of nearly 2½ million given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech for those exempted from Income Tax is not really firm but is a hypothetical figure for those who would be exempted if there were no further increases in wages and salaries during the coming year?
    Mr. Butler: First, it proves that the answer which I gave the right hon. Gentleman was correct. Secondly, it proves that the figure which I gave in my Budget speech was correct. I have set this out at some length owing to the difficulty in the figures about counting married women separately or not. That is why I gave as full an answer as I could to the right hon. Gentleman.

    Motor Fuel Duties (Revenue)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that it is officially estimated that in eight years time there will be more than 11 million motor vehicles on the English roads; and whether he will give an estimate of the amount which will then be produced by the duty on motor fuels per year in each of the next eight years, assuming that there is no reduction in the present rates of duty, and that consumption per vehicle remains the same.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The revenue from petrol and other oils used as fuel in road vehicles is governed by a variety of factors and I do not think that it is realistic to prepare estimates on this point for eight years ahead.
    Mr. Janner: Does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate that there will be a falling off in the revenue? As it is likely that there will be 11 million motor vehicles on the roads, does he not think that the suggested loan might be produced?
    Mr. Butler: As one would hope to be Chancellor of the Exchequer for the next eight years, perhaps one would be able to do something about it.

    Road Improvements (Finance)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that it is officially estimated that in eight years time there will be more than 11 million motor vehicles on the English roads; and

    1509
    in view of the large amount of revenue contributed by the motor fuel duties, whether he will now make preliminary arrangements to finance a large-scale loan to improve the roads.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir. I do not think that such arrangements are necessary in present circumstances.
    Mr. Janner: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to suggest to his successor on this side of the House what ideas he has about helping with regard to the roads, in view of the large revenue resulting from the motor fuel duties?
    Mr. Butler: I think that my right hon. Friend the present Minister of Supply, who was then Economic Secretary, in his speech on 7th December last, indicated that we could quite well carry this burden on the Budget for the time being, and then, if the burden increased, we might well have to adopt other devices. The hon. Member's suggestion is a reasonable one. However, I do not think it is necessary in present circumstances.

  TEA PRICES
  Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the fact that the price of tea was raised when, and because, our stocks were low, he will take steps to introduce price control and reduce prices now that the stocks are abnormally high.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Harmar Nicholls): I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) and the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) on 21st February last.
  Mr. Awbery: In view of the Government's profound belief in the inexorable law of supply and demand, which put the price of tea up by 8d. a lb. six months ago because not much tea was available, will the hon. Gentleman tell us what the Government are going to do now, when supplies are much more plentiful but the price has not gone down?
  Mr. Nicholls: The hon. Member, unfortunately, decided upon his supplementary question before reading the afternoon editions of the newspapers. He will find that in thousands of shops tomorrow tea prices will be slashed by 8d. a lb. The price will then be the lowest since the autumn. This shows the wisdom of the Government's policy.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Even so, can the hon. Gentleman say what will have been the increase in the price of tea since the Government took office?
  Mr. Nicholls: The experience of the last four months shows clearly that the price of tea in this country has been kept below the world price, and that is a proof that the free market in tea has been successful.
  Mr. Morrison: Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question? He knows the answer quite well. What has been the increase in the price of tea since the Government took office, when they promised that it would not go up?
  Mr. Nicholls: If the right hon. Gentleman will put a Question on the Order Paper, I will answer it, but to be completely up to date, the present trend is a very satisfactory one.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that his suggestion that someone from this side of the House should put down a Question is irrelevant? It would be someone from the Government side of the House who would put down a Question.
  Captain Waterhouse: Will my hon. Friend at the same time make a statement about the quantity of tea which is now available?

  THE QUEEN'S BIRTHDAY (CEREMONIAL PARADE)
  Mr. Iremongerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to see that rehearsals for ceremonial parades in honour of The Queen's birthday this year do not cause congestion and dislocation of traffic during the London forenoon.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): Some closing of roads is unavoidable both during the ceremony and during the two main rehearsals. This year there will be a more extensive system of signposting of alternative routes than formerly and additional traffic police will be made available.
  Mr. Iremonger: Will my hon. Friend give consideration to the idea that the rehearsals might well be held between first light and 9.30 a.m., and that, although the ceremonies give great satisfaction to the public, very considerable inconvenience is caused by having the rehearsals at times when traffic is necessarily at its peak?
  Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I am not sure that it would be possible to have the rehearsals at that time. In any event, I am not certain that it would really ease the traffic difficulty.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is there any reason why all this business cannot be organised to take place on a Saturday afternoon?

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES (GENERAL ELECTION BROADCASTS)
  Mr. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will arrange for all Election broadcasts to be broadcast in full on overseas services to the Colonies.
  The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs (Mr. Henry Hopkinson): As on previous occasions, this has already been arranged.
  Mr. Teeling: Is my right hon. Friend aware that at any rate in Malta and Cyprus there has been some difficulty in the past about hearing the broadcasts? Will he pay as much attention as he can to this matter to make sure that the broadcasts are clearly heard?
  Mr. Hopkinson: Yes, Sir. Transmission times will allow for direct listening wherever it is feasible and for recording or re-broadcasting by local broadcasting stations.
  Mr. Bottomley: Will the right hon. Gentleman pay special attention to broadcasts which can be heard by dockyard workers from this country who are em-
  1512
  ployed at overseas establishments, such as at Malta?
  Mr. Hopkinson: Yes, Sir, but we have to remember that other British citizens serving in the Colonies, unlike the Forces, have, unfortunately, not got votes.

  ELECTORAL REGISTER, CAITHNESS
  Sir D. Robertson(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that a large number of electors in the landward area of Caithness have been disfranchised due to changes made by the electoral officer, and if he will give a special direction under Section 41 of the Representation of the People Act to the registration officer to conduct a house-to-house inquiry in order to restore these electors to the register.
  Mr. J. Stuart: Section 9 of the Representation of the People Act, 1949, requires the registration officer to have a house-to-house or other sufficient inquiry made as to the persons entitled to be registered. I understand that in compiling the current register for Caithness, which cannot now be altered, the registration officer omitted the names of persons included in previous registers who failed to reply to postal canvass last autumn or to make a claim to be registered on the publication of the electors' list in December last. I have no evidence that this has disfranchised a large number of persons; but in any case I have no power to take any action.
  Sir D. Robertson: Is it not the case that at a meeting of the Caithness County Council held last week the statement was very definitely made by a county councillor, and supported by the County Clerk, a most responsible official, that a very large number of people living in the landward areas have been disfranchised because the new registration officer had applied the test under Section 9 in the towns of Wick and Thursoe but had dropped it for the landward areas, where it had been carried out previously? Is he aware that in one village alone 20 per cent. of the electorate is disfranchised, and it may well be that the same state of affairs will prevail elsewhere? As the vote is such a precious possession, is it not wrong that this important recording should have been carried out in such a perfunctory manner?
  Mr. Stuart: I must just mention the fact that these lists were open to public inspection in post offices, public libraries and elsewhere from 28th November to 16th December. I am assured that the registration officer took special care to inform the electors in the districts concerned that they should see whether their names were on the lists so that omissions could be rectified. Of course, if the electors did not take steps to see to any of those things for themselves, while that is no doubt very regrettable, I do not believe that the registration officer, so far as I am informed, is at fault. As I said, I am afraid that I have not the power to alter the present registration.
  Mr. Woodburn: While that may be true theoretically, is it not a fact that registration officers throughout Scotland make it their business to see that electors do not default in this essential duty of seeing that their names are on the register? When this registrar was appointed, was he a person who had had experience and who had done this work in other parts of the country, or was he aware of what was required of a registration officer?
  Mr. Stuart: He was a new registration officer, but he was certainly informed of the law on this subject. After inspecting the list, he did take steps to see that people who were not on it should make application to be included. It is the case that a percentage of the people to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) has referred, had, of course, moved on, either to another world, or to some other part of this world.
  Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that even these people might have been reached through the dead letter office? Is it not the case that if registration officers worked to rule, as he seems to suggest, half the people in this country would be disfranchised? Is it not the case that they do not work to rule, but carry out their duty in a sympathetic manner to get everybody on the register? Surely he will try to see that registration officers in the future—if he cannot do it this time—carry out their duty in habitual form.
  Mr. Stuart: I certainly agree that they should carry out their duties fully and sympathetically. However, I have no
  1514
  reason to suppose that this registration officer did not have those intentions. I can only say, while it is no responsibility of mine, that I regret it if he did not manage to get everybody on the list.
  Mr. H. Morrison: If, as is said by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) in some cases registration fell as much as 20 per cent., surely there was a responsibility on the registration officer to find out why that dramatic change had taken place. That is often done by registration officers when they make inquiries. In view of this very substantial disfranchisement, does the Secretary of State mean to say that there is nothing that he can do about it?
  Mr. Stuart: That is so. There is nothing I can do about it at the present time. The 20 per cent., to which the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland referred, is not, of course, a 20 per cent. disfranchisement, because some have moved and others have moved away for ever. I cannot say—and I do not think that the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) can say—what percentage has been disfranchised, because that is an unknown figure.

DOCTORS' LISTS (POSTAL VOTES)
Mrs. Castle(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the evidence sent to him by the hon. Member for Blackburn, East of pressure being brought to bear on doctors by local Conservative Associations to send them the names and addresses of their sick, blind and aged patients for the purposes of the postal vote, and whether he will instruct doctors in the National Health Service not to disclose particulars of their patients for political purposes.
The Minister of Health (Mr. Iain Macleod): I have studied carefully the documents sent to me by the hon. Lady. It is desirable that everybody should be aware of their right to a postal vote and equally important that any information given should be made available to all political parties who ask for it. There is nothing wrong in responsible citizens, doctors or others, bringing to the notice of those concerned, whatever their politics, their rights as postal voters.

1515
On the specific question about extracting patients' names from doctors' lists, I would not expect information concerning doctors' National Health Service patients, which is normally regarded as confidential, to be disclosed for some entirely different purpose. I am sure that doctors understand the position, and that no special communication is necessary.
As my hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General was mentioned yesterday, I should add that the letter referred to was sent by one of his ward chairmen to five doctors and that my hon. Friend had no knowledge that this letter had been sent. The letter itself, of course, is in no way a breach of the electoral law.
Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer was quite inadequate to the situation? Is he aware that almost all the time evidence is coming to me which seems to suggest that this approach to doctors and nurses is centrally organised? Is he aware that I have this morning received a letter by a Conservative member of the Bedfordshire County Council to a nurse employed by that authority and that the letter begins:
"Dear Nurse"—
so and so—
"Dr. Hill has asked me … "
It then goes on to request that this Conservative councillor, the employer of this nurse, should receive from her for postal vote purposes a list of old people whom she knows will not be able to go to the poll. Will the right hon. Gentleman get in touch with the Conservative Central Office, of which he used to be a distinguished member, and find out whether this is a centrally organised campaign and, if so, have it stopped at once?
Mr. Macleod: The hon. Lady is badly at fault here. The only point on which there can reasonably be criticism, and with which I dealt quite fairly in my statement, was the question of extracting names from a list that is confidential. Apart from that, it is of great importance that people should be aware of their right to a postal vote and all that information should be brought properly to the attention of those concerned.
Mr. Elliot: On the question of a centrally organised campaign, is it not a fact that the Minister of Health in the
1516
late Socialist Government, at the time of the last Election, wrote especially to all hospitals to ask them to ensure that all these voters on the absent roll were aware of their rights, that their names should be put on the absent voters' roll and that a doctor's signature should be obtained for that purpose? Does that not show that these steps are in accordance with previous practice?
Mr. Macleod: It is quite true that this has been common form among political parties. In the instance referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kelvin-grove (Mr. Elliot), the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) circularised all hospitals about absent voters' arrangements and asked hospital medical staffs, not only for lists of in-patients but of those awaiting admission and those who were out-patients, to arrange for the necessary forms and to see that hospital medical officers signed them.
Mr. H. Morrison: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great distinction between this case and official action being taken by a Government or local authority in order to convey to people what are their electoral rights? To that, there can be no objection. But is there not objection when there is evidence, as here, of deliberate use of the National Health Service and the local government service, not for the State to convey information, but by politicians and political parties in order that their party may be advantaged? Is that not what is happening at this Election and what happened at the last Election? Will not the Minister, together with the Minister of Housing and Local Government, see that this exploitation of the National Health Service and the local government service for Conservative Party purposes is stopped? Is he aware that the conclusion of this letter from the Conservative county councillor for the Luton ward, in which the Postmaster-General is involved—the Postmaster-General is sitting on the Front Bench opposite and this is an action on his behalf—is:
"I would be most grateful if you could send your list "—
that is, to Nurse Ingram—
"by return in the enclosed S.A.E. to my secretary, as we have to arrange to give the voters an application card and get their doctors' certificate, all before 12th May."

1517
I put it to the Minister that he is conniving at the exploitation of public services for private political purposes.
Mr. Macleod: If the right hon. Gentleman considers that this sort of a distinction should be drawn between the sort of circular I have quoted from the Ministry of Health and anything issued from the Conservative Central Office, then, of course, I will be very happy to quote from "The Labour Organiser," issued by Transport House before the last Election, giving detailed instructions about how to obtain postal votes in National Service hostels. It makes these two disgraceful statements. First:
"Our biggest handicap is that Party organisation in hostels is extremely difficult, and until recently we did not have a single Party member inside the hostel."
It also says:
"Unless the barriers are removed and Labour Party workers are allowed to contact the workers inside the precincts … they will remain outside our ranks, and through the lack of proper contact many thousands of postal votes will be lost."
Much other evidence can be produced if the right hon. Gentleman would like it. The right hon. Gentleman will agree that these are disgraceful statements and will be glad, I am sure, to take this opportunity of explaining them to the House.
Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman has now moved off the track. He has been reading about hostels. Any political party has a right to say that it wishes to further its recruitment and its support. What I am asking the right hon. Gentleman is: will he stop this scandal, which existed at the last Election and is now proceeding in this, I gather with the connivance of a Minister of the Crown? Will he give instructions that persons employed in the public service, or persons officially associated with public service, shall not exploit their position for the purpose of getting votes for political parties?
Mr. Macleod: I will send out to those I employ, who are the hospital staffs, precisely the same instructions that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale sent out.
Mr. McAdden: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is a serious reflection upon the integrity of the medical profession to suggest that they would use
1518
their professional position to influence the votes of their patients? Is it not their duty, as the guardians of the sick, to draw their attention to their rights? Is not it also the duty of those who are interested in a true vote being expressed by the people to see that those who are entitled to vote by post or otherwise get that right? Are not both parties, in fact, doing that, and is not this a lot of fuss about nothing?
Mr. Macleod: All that is perfectly true, and no one knows it better than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). He has merely started the Election campaign a little early.
Mr. Woodburn: Nobody denies the Minister's agility as a propagandist, but is not it a little bit slick to answer a Question about hospitals by making a statement about hostels?
Mr. Macleod: Not at all. In the first place, I gave an Answer from the Ministry of Health. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South then said that that was a very different matter from anything issued centrally, so I quoted him straight away something issued by Transport House.
Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British Medical Association has commented on the Hornsey case, which I raised yesterday, and is reported in the "News-Chronicle" as saying that this comes under a ruling that a doctor does not give any information about a patient without the patient's consent; it would be a breach of etiquette. Is he aware that in this matter the British Medical Association is giving a lead which puts to shame the party opposite?
Mr. Macleod: I entirely agree with the British Medical Association. If the hon. Lady had listened to my answer she would know that I covered precisely that point.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. There is no Question before the House.
Mrs. Castle: On a point of order. I wish at the appropriate time to move the Adjournment of the House. If this is the right moment I wish to move the

1519
Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the failure of the Ministry of Health to take steps to prevent persons in the employment of the National Health Service disclosing any confidential information obtained in their professional capacity in order to assist a political party at the General Election.
Mr. Speaker: Such a Motion is out of order today under Standing Order No. 16.
Mr. Woodburn: Can you explain to the House why it is out of order, Mr. Speaker? We should be interested to know.
Mr. Speaker: Paragraph (8) of Standing Order No. 16 says:
"On any day upon which the chairman or Mr. Speaker is, under this order, directed to put forthwith any question, the consideration of the business of supply shall not be anticipated by a motion for the adjournment of the House, and no dilatory motion shall be moved,…and the business shall not be interrupted under any standing order."
Today is such a day.
Mr. H. Morrison: I understand the point you have made, Mr. Speaker. From a quick reading of it I would not be disposed to make representations on it, but, my hon. Friend being excluded from moving her Motion today under Standing Order No. 16, would you be good enough to consider whether she might raise the point tomorrow, which will still be the earliest practicable time on which she could wish to move the Adjournment of the House?
Mr. Speaker: As the Standing Order which I have quoted prevented the hon. Lady from asking leave to move the Adjournment of the House today, I did not concern myself with the merits of the matter at all, because the technical objection is insuperable. I would point out that we shall soon be considering the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill on which, if there is any Ministerial responsibility involved in the point, it would be in order to discuss it. Of course, if there is no Ministerial responsibility, it would not be in order to discuss the question on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.

TEXTILE INDUSTRIES, LANCASHIRE AND NORTHERN IRELAND
The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): I propose, with permission, to make a statement on certain of the problems confronting the textile industries in Lancashire and Northern Ireland. In view of the conclusion of the discussions with the Indian Government I am now in a position to make the comprehensive statement which was promised by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 22nd April.
About two years ago, India raised her tariff against our cotton textiles to rates ranging from 60 per cent. to 80 per cent. while in addition retaining a very severe quota restriction. After representations on both quota and tariff made by Her Majesty's Government, the quota restriction was removed in October last. The tariff, however, remained, forming an almost complete barrier to trade.
Following upon the visit to India of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Board of Trade, at the end of last year, arrangements were made for a Mission from the Lancashire textile industry to visit India. This Misison, which was ably led by Mr. Angus Campbell, one of the leading merchants in Manchester, has recently returned and, as a result of its work, backed by the representations made by Her Majesty's Government, I am glad to say that the Indian Government have today announced a substantial reduction in tariff rates covering the whole range of cotton textiles.
The general effect of this will be to reduce the rates on British goods by more than half to a level of 25 per cent. compared with 60 per cent. to 80 per cent. previously. In addition, there is a specific duty of about 5 per cent. on average which Indian producers will also pay. The present substantial and important preference in favour of British exports is also preserved. These arrangements will result in welcome opportunities for increased trade.
At the same time, we have had under consideration the separate question of the level of imports of duty-free cloth from the Commonwealth. We would be reluctant to take action against imports

1521
from India, particularly action which would discriminate against India compared with other parts of the Commonwealth. Special considerations of colonial policy arise in the case of Hong Kong. Her Majesty's Government are not prepared, at this time and in existing circumstances, to depart from their long-established arrangements for duty-free entry from the Commonwealth.
We have had very much in mind the fact that many of the problems of the cotton textile industry arise from the fall in exports. The Government have given serious consideration to the further representations made regarding the effect of Purchase Tax on the export of quality textiles. We should propose, in any case, to keep under review the structure of the tax in relation to textiles and other quality goods of importance from the point of view of exports.
In the meantime, without prejudice to such review, the Government have decided that some further measure of relief is required in order to enable the cotton industry to take full advantage of all export opportunities, including the new situation created by the Indian tariff decision. The Order recently made reduced the Purchase Tax on non-woollen cloth and domestic textiles from 50 per cent. to 25 per cent. A further Order is now being made removing the tax altogether from these goods with effect from tomorrow. The combined cost of these two Orders is about £6 million in a full year. The effect will be to encourage the production of quality textiles for sale at home and abroad and to bring substantial benefits both to Lancashire and to Northern Ireland.
Mr. H. Morrison: We are interested to hear what the Prime Minister has had to say. I will leave the more technical questions to my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) and others, but we welcome the action of the Indian Government in modifying their policy in this matter. We are glad that that should have happened.
The Government's decision to abolish Purchase Tax on this class of goods, really is a most fascinating story. We were promised a comprehensive statement before Easter; we have only now got it, about two days, I think it is, before the dissolution. Last week, on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member
1522
for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton) we urged the complete abolition of the Purchase Tax—well, of course, there are limits to what can be moved, but that was the argument—and that was resisted by the Government. Since then the Government have had to submit to the policy of the Labour Party—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and, therefore, it will be known by the County Palatine that we are the authors of this further change of Government policy.
I am beginning to wonder whether it would not be a good thing to have the Election in about a week. Even so, the great problem of Lancashire will remain. Great difficulties will remain, in view of the import position, and the House would be unwise to think that this solves the problem. But of all the miserable pieces of political humbug I have ever heard, this is the biggest.
The Prime Minister: I am glad that, at any rate, the right hon. Gentleman welcomes the action of the Government of India—that is something about which we can all agree. It is also true, and the right hon. Gentleman will recollect, that we have repeatedly stated that while the discussions were going on we did not wish to state the whole of our intentions in respect of this problem. We have waited until this morning, when the declaration—[Interruption.] I think I am entitled to a hearing from the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan). We have waited until this morning, when the Government of India published their intentions, in order that we might complete the policy which we now submit to the House.
Mr. H. Wilson: The Prime Minister will, of course, not expect Lancashire to be taken in by this kind of move. Will the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the Cotton Board has been pressing the Government now for about 10 months on the question of imports of Indian cloth into Lancashire; that it is now clear that the cotton industry were led up the garden path at No. 10 by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor and that we have still got no answer to the fundamental problem facing Lancashire, namely, Indian imports?
Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what it has been—other than the Gallup Poll, which is against the Government—which has

1523
caused the Government suddenly to change their mind—after the Chancellor was so obdurate about abolishing the Purchase Tax on cotton goods last Thursday night—and tell us that the Purchase Tax is being abolished?
The Prime Minister: It is the considered view of the Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "And the Chancellor?"]—that the concessions today and hitherto—as the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East keeps interrupting, may I be allowed to explain it?
Mr. Callaghan: What I was asking the Prime Minister was, as we are getting two concessions—on dependants' pensions and Purchase Tax—in two days, what more can we expect if the Gallup Poll continues to move against the Government?
The Prime Minister: I was replying to the right hon. Member for Huyton on the question of the negotiations with India. I said that it is the considered view of the Government that the concessions which the Government of India have made—the very important concessions—in respect of our export trade are such that we do not propose—I made that quite clear—in present times and in present circumstances, to put on a quota. I do not know whether the Opposition policy would be to put on a quota and destroy exports, or not.
Mr. Assheton: May I be allowed to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the two very important concessions which have been made and to tell him that the export trade of Lancashire will benefit greatly not only by the complete abolition of Purchase Tax on these two classes of goods, but also by the very substantial reductions of duty in India?
Mr. Blackburn: May I ask the Prime Minister why there has been no mention in his statement about another serious matter affecting the cotton industry—the import of foreign yarns, which is seriously affecting one side of the industry? Would he explain how it is that we were told that it was impossible to wipe out the Purchase Tax entirely and leave the 25 per cent. Purchase Tax on clothing and yet today it has been possible to do it?
The Prime Minister: Foreign yarn is subject to tariff. I was dealing with the negotiations which have been going on for a long time with the Government of India, and I should have thought that the House and the country as a whole would very warmly welcome the fact that after these long discussions we have been able to reach arrangements with the Government of India which are most helpful to the trade of Lancashire.
Mr. Blackburn: On a point of order. There is a second point about this question to which no reference was made and—
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order.
Captain Orr: Is the Prime Minister aware that, in spite of the chagrin and disappointment expressed by the party opposite, his statement will be regarded as the best news which the Ulster linen industry has had for a very long time?
Mr. Jay: As the Government are now completely on the run, will the Prime Minister tell us why he has so abruptly over-ruled the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter? Is the Prime Minister aware that only last Thursday night the Chancellor told us that it was not merely financially impossible but was also dishonourable to make a concession of this kind?
The Prime Minister: If we are on the run, I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman is complaining, because the acting Leader of the Opposition has just been saying that we are moving the way he wants us to move. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."] As for the position of the Government, incredible as it may be to right hon. Gentlemen opposite, we do agree with each other.
Sir I. Horobin: While appreciating, as Lancashire will appreciate, the value of the successful negotiations with India in leading to the abolition of a tax which hon. Members opposite doubled, and also to increasing our exports, may I ask whether we can take it from my right hon. Friend that the very closest contact will continue to be maintained with the Empire in view of the very important fact that the third difficulty facing Lancashire, imports into this country, still remains for negotiation?
Mr. W. R. Williams: Is the Prime Minister aware that he and his Government have been dilly-dallying for so long with this subject, which is important to Lancashire, that we now have information from the Oldham and Failsworth areas that one mill has already closed, that another is likely to close next week and that about 600 operators in the constituency of the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Sir I. Horobin) and in my constituency will be on the dole as from next week? Is he not ashamed of the dilly-dallying of his Government in this matter?
The Prime Minister: These negotiations with India were inevitably prolonged and I think we were wise in allowing them to develop. I think that the outcome is the best we could have hoped for.
Mr. H. Wilson: When the House debated the question of Indian imports on 9th March we were put off by the fact that the President of the Board of Trade had invited the Cotton Board to make suggestions. Is the Prime Minister now telling the House that because of this valuable but small concession from the Indian Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—very small as affecting Lancashire's production problem—and because of this small concession from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the advice of the Cotton Board, which was used by the President of the Board of Trade to stall in that debate, is now being totally rejected by the Government?
The Prime Minister: No, Sir. What I said in my statement was quite clear. I will repeat the words. I said that we have had this concession which I have reported to the House and which the House has just welcomed. It is by no means insignificant and I hope the right hon. Gentle-
1526
man will not take the line which he has just taken about it. I then went on to say:
"Her Majesty's Government are not prepared at this time and in existing circumstances to depart from their long-established arrangements for duty-free entry from the Commonwealth."
Mr. Wilson: On a point of order. The Prime Minister, in answer to my question has referred to duty-free entry, which relates to tariffs. The advice of the Cotton Board related not to tariffs but to quotas, which is an entirely different question.
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman will surely know that the quota must have been a holding quota.
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the troubles in the industry recently have been largely those in the fine end of the industry, and that both of the measures which he has announced will give an immense fillip to the fine end?
The Prime Minister: That is exactly the purpose we had in mind.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. There is no Question before the House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock and that if the first Resolution reported from the Committee of Supply of 2nd May shall have been agreed to before half-past Nine o'clock, Mr. Speaker shall proceed to put forthwith the Questions which he is directed to put at half-past Nine o'clock by paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 16 (Business of Supply)—[The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [14TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  REPORT [2nd May]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1955–56; ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1955– 56; MINISTRY OF DEFENCE ESTIMATE, 1955–56; NAVY, ARMY AND AIR ESTIMATES, 1955–56.
  Resolutions reported,
  1. That a sum, not exceeding £222,344,007, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sums necessary to defray the charges for the following services connected with Agriculture for the year ending on 31st March, 1956, namely:

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1955–56

  £

  Class VIII, Vote 1, Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries

  7,544,989

  Class VIII, Vote 2, Farming Grants and Subsidies

  28,174,730

  Class VIII, Vote 3, Services to Agriculture

  6,217,580

  Class VIII, Vote 12, Department of Agriculture for Scotland

  6,267,443

  Class VIII, Vote 10, Ministry of Food

  74,139,265

  Total

  £222,344,007

  2. That a sum, not exceeding £21,831,178, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sums necessary to defray the charges for the following services connected with Development Areas for the year ending on 31st March, 1956, namely:

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1955–56

  £

  Class VI, Vote 1, Board of Trade

  2,774,800

  Class VI, Vote 8, Ministry of Labour and National Service

  12,934,080

  Class VI, Vote 4, Services in Development Areas

  4,178,540

  Class VI, Vote 5, Financial Assistance in Development Areas

  412,510

  Class I, Vote 25, Scottish Home Department

  1,531,248

  Total

  £21,831,178

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1955–56
  CLASS I
  3. That a sum, not exceeding £12,494,764, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class I of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS II
  4. That a sum, not exceeding £61,499,150, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS III
  5. That a sum, not exceeding £56,699,555, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS IV
  6. That a sum, not exceeding £245,465,034, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS V
  7. That a sum, not exceeding £427,524,786, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS VI
  8. That a sum, not exceeding £128,651,729, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS VII
  9. That a sum, not exceeding £43,027,375, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS VIII
  10. That a sum, not exceeding £24,699,907, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VIII of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS IX
  11. That a sum, not exceeding £88,034,190, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IX of the Civil Estimates.
  CLASS X
  12. That a sum, not exceeding £287,803,570, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class X of the Civil Estimates.
  ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1955–56
  13. That a sum, not exceeding £206,325,900, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments.
  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE ESTIMATE, 1955–56
  14. That a sum, not exceeding £12,200,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Defence; expenses in connection with the International Defence Organisations, including an international subscription; and a grant in aid of certain expenses incurred in the United Kingdom by the Government of the United States of America.
  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1955–56
  15. That a sum, not exceeding £196,524,900, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services.
  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1955–56
  16. That a sum, not exceeding £277,000,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Army Services.

  AIR ESTIMATES, 1955–56
  17. That a sum, not exceeding £139,860,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for Expenditure in respect of the Air Services.
  [For details of Resolutions, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd May, 1955, cols. 1454–1460.]
  First Resolution read a Second time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.

AGRICULTURE
4.7 p.m.
Mr. Thomas Williams: Although there was a preliminary discussion on the conclusion of the Annual Price Review on the day following its issue, we felt that, now that the facts and figures and implications have been assimilated, the House was entitled to a further opportunity of examining those various conclusions. No doubt many other matters will arise affecting the whole issue of the Government's attitude towards agriculture. I may even raise one or two myself.
I shall have little to say on the terms of the agreement, because I understand that they appear to have been accepted as just about right. Indeed, I do not see how they could have been otherwise. A vote of no confidence in the Government had been receiving plenty of support at the National Farmers' Union annual conference, but when an affirmative decision was almost certain the leaders had the discussion adjourned until they had heard what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to say at the N.F.U. annual dinner the same evening.
The Chancellor was warned of what was happening at Bedford Square and knew all about the threat of the vote of no confidence. He went to the dinner that same evening and he said his piece with interest even higher than the Bank Rate. There was, of course, very loud applause after what he had said and, not unnaturally, the next morning the motion was duly withdrawn. Thus the Government escaped a vote of no confidence from the National Farmers' Union by the skin of their teeth, even though the Minister and hon. Members opposite generally have been trying to assure themselves that there was no lack of confidence throughout the rural areas of the country. The Government had jettisoned one Minister of Agriculture upon a very flimsy excuse in 1954, and it would not have done for them to have lost another early in 1955.
But there was another very good reason why the Chancellor should once again come to the rescue of the Minister of Agriculture and the Government. Quite unknown to the National Farmers' Union delegates, but well understood by the Chancellor, a General Election was just

1531
round the corner. We have just been hearing about some pre-Election concessions, and it seems to have become almost a fever with the Government to try to get home in a photo-finish every time.. Here was a grand opportunity for the Chancellor to steady the waverers in Norfolk, Suffolk, Wiltshire, Lancashire, Warwickshire and other rural areas. I am bound to say to his credit—if credit is due to him—that he did himself proud, and the farmers forgot 1954, at least temporarily.
All that is now needed for Election purposes, apparently, is for the Minister of Agriculture to repeat, seven days a week, that it is the policy of the Government to maintain a prosperous and healthy agricultural industry, and to state that they will stand loyally by the principles of the 1947 Act. To the extent that they do—if, by any misfortune, they get the chance—we shall certainly welcome the compliment, despite their persistent efforts to claim parentage of the 1947 Act. What we do not welcome is their constant wobbling all over the place, keeping the industry in a state of confusion about one commodity or another.
Major H. Legge-Bourke: How many members of the industry are in a state of confusion?
Mr. Williams: Those who supported the vote of no confidence in the Government at the National Farmers' Union annual conference, and many others.
We all know what happened about pigs in 1954—and even in 1955. Now there are the classic examples of tillage and coarse grains. The Government have changed their minds three times in four years and if the hon. and gallant Member for Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) does not know that, I intend to tell him. I suppose that is what the Minister means when he talks about flexible stability within a free market.
Let us see what has happened over the last four years. Paragraph 12 (c) of Command Paper 8556 of 1952 says:
"Through the better use of grasslands, release 1 million acres for addition to the tillage area (apart from the additional acreage expected to be ploughed up by June, 1952, compared with 1951). A substantial part of the one million acres would carry coarse grains."
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So, apart from the normal ploughing up that was expected, the Government hoped for at least another 1 million acres for tillage. In paragraph 15 of Command Paper 9104 of 1954, however, they say:
"It should, however, be possible to reach the objective of 60 per cent. without such a big increase in tillage as the 1.000,000 acres mentioned in the 1952 White Paper … "
Then, in the 1955 White Paper, they say:
"Following the return to free market conditions, there has been a fall in tillage area—469,000 acres in the United Kingdom in the last year … The Government consider that the best use will be made of our land in present circumstances if the output and use of home-grown feedingstuffs is increased."
They have changed their minds three times in four years. In 1952, they wanted an extra 1 million acres of tillage; in 1954, they did not, and in 1955 they did—with interest, and so they increased the price of coarse grains for next year's harvest. They are also increasing the ploughing up grant to try to restore some of the tillage acreage lost last year, which would not have been lost were it not for the words of the 1954 White Paper.
That is not what we call stability; it is just plain nonsense. They do and they do not; they do not and they do, and they just do not know where they are. As a result of this chopping and changing last year somebody imported 2 million tons of coarse grains at a cost of £55 million in dollars. I suppose that we needed the 2 million tons, but who imported it?
I should like to ask the Minister whether the Government have any control over dollar imports for imported feeding stuffs or anything else. From an examination of the last three or four White Papers it is clear that the Government have been positively mesmerised, either by world trends or their doctrinaire attachment to free markets—and all the time the industry is left to guess what it ought or ought not to do.
The Minister of Agriculture, speaking at a Conservative agricultural conference a few days ago, said that the farmer knew what his own land could produce to the best economic advantage better than any Government, and that it was not the Government's job to direct farmers what to produce. Of course it is not, but why do the Government keep leading the farmers up the garden by telling them to do something this year,

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and not to do it the next year, and to do something else the year after? If that is the best that the Government can do under what they call free market conditions, Heaven help the agricultural industry and, perhaps, also the Treasury. In the same speech, the Minister said that the Government's obligations under the 1947 Act would cost about £250 million. We know that the aggregate increase in costs of production amounted to more than £39 million last year, but what does the other £10 million represent? Paragraph 13 of the 1954 White Paper says:
"The present cost to the taxpayer of the support given to British agriculture is very high—of the order of £200 million."
It goes on to say that further steps would be taken to try to reduce this contribution. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman to what extent the deficiency payments system has contributed to this increase—or to what extent it was caused by the 1 million pigs for which they asked, but did not want, in 1953.
We know that the net income of farmers went down by £40 million last year. The Government contribution has gone up by £50 million, and the cost of living has gone up. Who is getting the swag? There is certainly a story there which somebody ought to tell us something about. Perhaps the Minister will also tell us something about the livestock auction marts, for I cannot recall that anything has been said since the great transformation to the free market. We should like to know whether or not the auction marts are functioning satisfactorily, and whether Treasury interests are being properly safeguarded.
We should like to know how many slaughterhouses are now in operation, and, also, whether any estimate has been made of the annual loss through the inability to make full use of the byproducts of these thousands of slaughterhouses. After all, any losses which accrue must be met by the Treasury, and the farming community get the odium.
What help has been given or offered to the Farmers' Marketing Corporation to erect the modern abattoirs of which they can make the fullest use? I recall that the Government said that they were willing to give all the help they could to the Farmers' Marketing Corporation if the farmers established it.
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While we accept the result of the Price Review we cannot escape the feeling that with their wobbling and waffling the Government have completely disturbed the confidence in the industry. For the first time since 1946—when there were good reasons for it—there is a reduction in output instead of an increase. We admit, of course, that the weather last year was rather bad, but so it was in 1947, and I did not hear any expressions of regret then from hon. Members opposite, who then sat on this side of the House. However, the disastrous weather of 1954 was not the complete answer.
The Minister said, at the Conference to which I have already referred:
"I do not think that any Government in living memory have achieved so much in three years."
The right hon. Gentleman was speaking at the Conservative agricultural conference in Cambridge. I can only believe that either the right hon. Gentleman allowed his imagination to run riot, or that he must be singularly ill-informed. Has no one told the right hon. Gentleman that industrial output in this country between 1946 and 1951 increased annually at the rate of 7 per cent., and that industrial output has increased over the past three years by only just over 3 per cent. per annum?
Has the right hon. Gentleman not seen the figures in his own White Paper for 1955, which show that the annual increase in agricultural production between 1946 to 1947 and 1950 to 1951 was 6 per cent. and that the annual increase since the present Government took office is something short of an increase of 2 per cent.? What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by saying that no Government have ever done so much?
I am subject to correction if I am wrong, but I always understood that the real wealth of a nation was its industrial and agricultural production. If that is the true measurement, then this Government are not only hopelessly behind but they have a very bad record. I know, of course, that agriculturists generally have been the best political suicide club for generations, but I do not think that they will swallow that statement of the right hon. Gentleman.
That reminds me of something that the Parliamentary Secretary said on 31st March. I gave him warning that I

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would refer to this. By a disingenuous juggling with figures he was trying to discount a statement that I had made a few days earlier. Referring to the Government's constant boast that they had abolished rationing I had said from this Box that the Government had done precious little towards making it possible to deration. I said that between 1947 to 1948 and 1951 to 1952 output had increased at the rate of 5 per cent. per annum and that over the last three years the increase was a little over 1 per cent. per annum. Actually, I was wrong, and I apologise to the House for that. The increase was not 5 per cent., it was 6 per cent., from 1946 to 1947 until 1950 to 1951 or 1951 to 1952. One can take whichever latter year one wishes to take.
The Parliamentary Secretary produced some figures from somewhere to disprove my assertion. He certainly did not use the Government White Papers for 1952, 1953, 1954 or 1955. Perhaps he has his own private source of statistics. Could it be that the hon. Gentleman got his figures from the Conservative and Unionist Election Campaign Guide? I do not know. Anyhow, this is what the hon. Gentleman said in reply to what I had said previously:
"The facts are that starting from 1945 to 1946 and finishing with 1950 to 1951 there was an increase in the index from 130 points to 143. That is 16 points in six years. That makes an average increase of 2⅔ points per annum."
If one takes 130 from 143 one is not left with 16 in my reckoning. One is left with 13, but that is immaterial. The hon. Gentleman mentioned that between 1945 to 1946 and 1950 to 1951—he was in the House at the time, I think.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): No.
Mr. Williams: I am sorry. I apologise.
At least, the hon. Gentleman ought to know that the war was still on in 1945 and that 1946 was worse from the food point of view than several of the wartime years. I can recall that we were buying coarse grains from the United States and having to divert them to Germany to help to keep the human family alive. I can remember that we purchased large quantities of wheat from Australia and had to
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divert them to Ceylon and India to help stave off famine there.
The hon. Gentleman must know that our expansion programme was announced in August, 1947. What are the simple facts in answer to the Parliamentary Secretary? Does he agree with the figures contained in the various White Papers of his Department from 1952 to 1955?
Mr. Nugent: I have hesitated to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman's speech because I can deal with it, probably, more fully in my reply to the debate, but the figures I quoted, and a copy of which I subsequently sent to him, were extracted from the White Papers.
It is true that these figures are sometimes revised afterwards in the light of later information, but the relevant point here is that I started from the index figure in 1944 to 1945, at the point at which the Labour Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member, started. The date point was 1st June, 1945. The Labour Government started a month later. I went from that time until the time when the Labour Government finished in 1951, the year being 1950 to 1951, and that was six years. I am sorry about the mistake in arithmetic, but I was certainly not misrepresenting the facts.
Mr. Williams: It only goes to show that the hon. Gentleman deliberately included a year during which there were many months of war after we took office, and 1946, which was literally a famine year. The hon. Gentleman must not misrepresent what I said. I deliberately took the years from 1947 to 1948 until 1951 to 1952—perhaps I ought to have said 1950 to 1951, but it is the same thing—and I said that the increased output was so and so. The hon. Gentleman, to try to draw a false picture arising out of what I did not say, used the year 1945 to 1946.
Mr. Nugent: I took simply the period of the Labour Government.
Mr. Williams: Knowing full well what it all meant.
Mr. Nugent: In the first year, the year 1945 to 1946, there was increased production, which went to the right hon. Gentleman's credit. It was not until the second year of the Labour Government that there was a fall in output. I simply gave

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the figures of the period of the Labour Government. I did not add anything to them or subtract anything from them.
Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman, as a poultry keeper himself, knew that in 1946 we were having to kill off our livestock because were were trying to keep the human family alive in Germany, Ceylon and India. The simple truth is that we announced our expansion programme in August, 1947, but from 1946 to 1947, the first year in which it can be said we had a true opportunity of expansion, the increase was not as the hon. Gentleman put it but 117, or 6 per cent.
It is 117 in all the four White Papers that this Government have issued. In 1950–51 the index figure is 141. Whether he takes the figures from 1946–47 to 1950–51 or to 1951–52, it makes no difference; there is an annual average increase of 6 per cent., and nothing that he can say can alter that. I conclude on that point by telling him that the weather was not too good in 1947, but I am willing to accept that year.
Mr. Nugent: I cannot accept the right hon. Gentleman's figure for 1946–47 as being 117. It does not occur in any of the indices.
Mr. Williams: We will soon see whether it does or not; but, of course, the Government have changed the figures two or three times, and it is difficult to keep pace with them. I will take the latest figure of all. We had better keep these figures strictly accurate because there is an Election coming and I should like the hon. Gentleman to give accurate figures in the Election and not inaccurate figures.
In the 1954 White Paper, subscribed to, presumably, by the hon. Gentleman as Parliamentary Secretary, the index for 1946–47 is 117. The index for 1950–51 is 141—an increase, therefore, of 6 per cent. each year. If the hon. Gentleman wants to come to the White Paper for 1955 he will find that it tells the same sort of thing. The Government have dropped out the 1950–51 figures for some good reason of their own. The index for 1946–47 in the 1955 White Paper is 119, but the index for 1951–52 is 148—again, an average of 6 per cent. increase over the years. These are figures from the Government's White Papers; they are not my own production or from the Conservative and Unionist Election Campaign Guide. I am not quoting any
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party figures. If he will tell me what he would like me to quote from, I will quote from it.
Mr. Nugent: In the White Paper for 1955, the figures for 1946–47 are 119 for agricultural holdings and 124 for all holdings. I have been using throughout the figures for the total holdings, and the right hon. Gentleman is using the figure for agricultural holdings only.
Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong and he ought to know that he is quite wrong. He is just "dodging the column."
In the 1952 White Paper, the figure for 1946–47 is 117. I have taken the top figure all the time.
Mr. Nugent: I have taken the whole.
Mr. Williams: They are all the hon. Gentleman's. In the 1954 White Paper, the figure again is 117. In the 1955 White Paper the Government have lifted it to 119, but it leaves the relativity exactly the same with a continuous increase in production of 6 per cent. each year. Now that the hon. Gentleman knows the truth, I hope that we shall hear accurate figures used during the Election.
I want to say a few words on another subject. For years, I have admired the efforts of hon. Members opposite to claim the parentage—or the partial parentage—of the 1947 Act. I have enjoyed that especially, knowing full well that no Conservative Government that I have ever seen would have dared to have introduced any such Measure as the 1947 Bill. It has been suggested that the policy was both thought out and the foundations well and truly laid by the wartime Government. I lived at the Ministry during those five years, but only as a very humble junior, and I am ready to confess at once that the then Minister was receptive to new ideas, especially for use in the famine conditions of wartime. No doubt some of these ideas were new to him although old to us, as I shall show in a moment. It may be that they did help us in 1947, but what would have happened if a Conservative Government had been returned in 1945 is very doubtful indeed.
What we do know is that the Conservative Party never had an agricultural policy in peacetime, at least during the last thirty years, during which I have

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been in the House. Between the wars they allowed the industry to decline to its lowest level this century. Most farmers' incomes were negligible, farm workers' wages a scandal, and farm buildings and equipment just decayed. It was the Labour Party which produced and applied a policy which brought security, prosperity and confidence. This is a point which I want to emphasise.
The Labour Party did not wait until the Second World War to produce an agricultural policy. It may interest the Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as the research boys who produced the Conservative and Unionist Election Campaign Guide, to know that the main features of the 1947 Act were produced before either the Minister or the Chancellor became Members of this House. I ought to make that transparently clear.
Commander J. W. Maitland: Like the nationalisation of land.
Mr. Williams: Before most of the research workers who are operating at Tory headquarters were born, we had a policy for agriculture, so the parentage of the 1947 Act is just immaterial. Let me quote from the Labour Party's agricultural policy statement, issued before the war.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. McNair Snadden): What date?
Mr. Williams: I will give the date in a moment. The policy stated:
"The establishment of security of tenure for efficient farmers. The provision of credit on easy terms."—
this is important—
"The stabilisation of prices by the collective purchase of imported grain and wheat. The elimination of waste by the development of collective marketing. The establishment of efficient services of electrical power and transport in rural areas. The protection of the agricultural worker by the establishment of an adequate minimum wage, effectively enforced, and of reasonable hours of labour. The improvement of the services of health, housing and education in rural districts. The provision of facilities for the acquisition of land, both for smallholdings and for allotments."
Commander Maitland: And the nationalisation of land.
Mr. Williams: I do not mind what the hon. and gallant Gentleman adds to it,
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but if, since the date of the production of this policy there has been a change of mind, because some people have thought again, that only goes to show that they are wiser today than they were yesterday, and I have no apologies to make. What I am saying is that the main features of the 1947 policy were embodied in this policy.
Mr. Clifford Kenyon: Is it not a fact that the nationalisation of the land was first put forward by the Liberal Party?
Mr. Williams: I should not be a bit surprised.
Captain Christopher Soames: It did not do them much good.
Mr. Williams: Hon. Members opposite would like to know the date of this policy. The date was when the Minister and the Chancellor were two very bright young men, not yet tainted with politics, votes of confidence, agricultural policies, or indeed, General Elections. The date was 11th January, 1929, long before the Minister came to this House. It was produced at a period when a policy for agriculture was urgently necessary, but when none was forthcoming from the Tory Party. It is true that the opportunity to apply the policy was delayed until 1945, but the thinking had been done years before by members of the Labour Party. In the interests of truth, since there is a General Election just round the corner, I thought I had better place these facts on record.
Every speech made by the Minister and other hon. Members opposite about free markets, the law of supply and demand, control, rationing, strait-jackets and that sort of thing, conclusively prove two things. One is that if the Conservative Party had been returned to office in 1945 there would have been no 1947 Act comparable to the one on the Statute Book. Secondly, it would be a positive danger to entrust a Government of that kind with the Agriculture Act for another five years. Does any hon. Member believe for a moment, after what they have done with and to this Act since they have been in office, that the Government would have dared to pass either Part I, or Part II of the 1947 Act, with its guarantees and controls?
The simple truth is that they hate controls and would not have dared face the

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House with a Bill of that kind. There is only one reason why they are administering the Act today. It is because they are just afraid to repeal it, at least until after the General Election. That is the difference between the Conservative Party and those who sit on these benches. We believe in the policy we produced and that no doctrinaire theories should stand in the way.
Major Legge-Bourke: The right hon. Member has said a great deal in, as he put it, the interests of simple truth. May I ask him about his reply to the interruptions of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland)? He said he changed his mind about land nationalisation after the policy he read to us just now had been formulated. If that be so, why was it that in "Let us Face the Future," and in its 1950 policy, his party stated that it believed in land nationalisation?
Commander Maitland: The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) does now.
Mr. Williams: I should not be surprised. Whatever my right hon. Friend may believe in and what I believe in and what is party policy are different things. Certain hon. Members on the benches opposite found their way to this House, by very small majorities, only because they declared throughout their Parliamentary divisions that a Labour Government would nationalise the land. The Labour Government did not nationalise the land. The last time it was discussed at a party conference the suggestion was turned down. If a part of the policy produced in 1929–30 years before the Conservative Party gave any thought to an agricultural policy—has since been withdrawn it ought to be a matter for congratulation and not condemnation by the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely.
I was saying that the difference between the Conservative Party and the party on these benches is that we believe in the policy we produced and would not allow any doctrinaire theories to stand in its way. We believe in a highly efficient agriculture, as efficiency is absolutely essential to the economy of this country. But, to obtain that efficiency we are quite convinced that there needs to be a large element of security and continuity. I
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entirely agree with the Minister that production regardless of cost is no longer necessary, nor desirable. We know that high farming has proved to be a paying proposition and we know that low cost farming is a necessity. We know that quality in the new conditions of employment which the Labour Party established in 1946–49 is essential. We rely upon the county agricultural executive committees and the Agricultural Advisory Service to play their full part in achieving these things. Not for the first time, we protest very strongly against those backwoodsmen who persistently snipe at a body of men who are doing a great voluntary service.
If this House wills the end—that is, an efficient agricultural industry making a great contribution to our national economy—it has to will the means. As a party, we are quite prepared to do that by standing four square by the principles embodied in the 1947 Act.
4.46 p.m.
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Heathcoat Amory): I very much welcome this debate. I think it is very fitting that just before the House dissolves we should look at the achievements of the farming industry during the past few years—achievements of which every member of that industry can feel justly proud and achievements which reflect the soundness and success of the agricultural policy of the Government.
The period of office of the present Government has coincided with a period of very great importance to agriculture in this country, the period of transition from controls and rationing to plenty, freedom of choice and rising quality. The advantages that that change has brought to housewives and to the nation at large cannot seriously be disputed.
This afternoon I want to show that by our policy we have combined plenty and freedom of choice for the consumer and for the farmer with firm and comprehensive support to the agricultural producer and continued expansion of agricultural production. We have fulfilled the obligations of the Government—I say this with absolute confidence—under the Agriculture Act, 1947, in spirit and in letter.
I want now to refer to the speech which we have just heard from the right hon.

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Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). At times it seemed to me to display an astonishing lack of contact with realities. It is a well known paradox that the Socialist Party, which so loudly proclaims itself as the champion of progress, always thinks and plans for a past era. The right hon. Member and his friends, judging by what I have read of their recently announced policy—it was strange that the right hon. Member never once made reference in his speech to his party's policy—seem to be consumed by a wistful longing for the good old days of rationing and controls, when producers and consumers did as they were told, and had to. That sort of thing is four years out of date, because now we are in a more challenging, a more robust and constructive period. The blue print that the right hon. Member and his friends have designed for British agriculture, so far as I can understand it, would lead inevitably to rigidity and rationing. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I shall have another word to say about that in a moment. The emphasis once again is on orders and directions, on planning from the centre and huge Government-sponsored organisations.
Mr. T. Williams: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that electioneering cry of his about rationing, which he introduced very usefully from the Conservatives' point of view in the South Norfolk by-election, will he tell us why he thinks that a Commission for the importation of meat or wheat would necessarily involve rationing?
Mr. Amory: I should like to deal with that in a moment, because it is a very important point.
Mr. Williams: Very important.
Mr. Amory: As I was saying, the emphasis is once again on orders and directions, on planning from the centre, and huge Government-sponsored organisations. That is most certainly not the road that is going to lead to a healthy, strong and progressive agricultural industry.
Mr. George Brown: It is not the way we propose either.
Mr. Amory: I almost despair of the right hon. Gentleman and his party ever
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learning that the most effective progress in this country is secured not by Governmental directions but by individual enterprise guided by leadership and persuasion.
Mr. Williams: What about nationalised electricity?
Mr. Amory: The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends remind me of the earnest headmaster who said, "I am resolved to instil a spirit of cheerfulness in this school, even if I have to thrash every boy to within an inch of his life." I really feel that with regard to this policy the Leader of the Opposition has given his colleagues the same advice as a Prime Minister gave in the last century when he said, "Gentlemen, it does not matter much what we say as long as we all say the same."
I want to turn from the right hon. Gentleman's lucubrations to a more cheerful picture, because that description fits, whether we survey the record of achievement of the past few years or take a look forward into the future. Memories are short, and I think it is salutory that we should all remember that not so long ago the ration book dominated our lives. Then the emphasis to the farmers was on quantity, and cost and quality were secondary considerations. In those days the Government were the sole purchaser of by far the greater part of farming output. Demand was in excess of supply, and no effort was needed to sell.
Now, thanks to the efforts of the farming community and thanks to the success of the Government's financial and economic policy, supplies of food are available on a scale which made it possible to restore freedom. This by any standard is a great achievement. I am sure that we must all welcome that change in our fortunes as a sign of a great improvement in the nation's economic health.
In making our new design, we were determined to have a system which gave free choice to the housewife and the farmer and at the same time proper support to the producer. My predecessors worked out the plans, and those plans are working well. Every housewife knows today how much better the shops are catering for her needs in quantity, quality and variety.
Mr. E. G. Gooch: And price?
Mr. Amory: I made a speech about price the other day, and if the hon. Gentleman will read the report of that speech, he will find the answer to his intervention.
The preferences of the housewife have been made known through the price system to farmers who are shaping their production accordingly. The point for us to remember is that today the consumer is once again in charge. But free choice for the consumer has to be reconciled with security for the farmer. It is quite natural that after 15 years of State control the farming community should have had some misgivings about changing, but, in the event, their misgivings have already proved unfounded and are now steadily giving way to increasing confidence.
What we have done by the provision of guaranteed prices is to provide a sound basis of security and scope above that floor for the producers, by skill and experience in providing what the consumer wants, to do still better. If the market price is less than the standard guaranteed price, the Exchequer makes up the difference. That is the basic principle, and it is working fairly. All the time we are seeking still better ways of implementing these guarantees, and improvements in detail are continually being introduced.
The point I want to make is this. Only in the completely artificial marketing conditions of rationing and price control can a general fixed price system work. Hon. Members opposite seem to want to bring that system back, but I say quite categorically that one cannot bring back a fixed-price system, save with reckless disregard of cost, without also returning to the worst features of control and allocation.
Hon. Members opposite have been careful to say—I think the right hon. Member for Don Valley said it again today—that they intend no return to rationing. They may not intend it, but they have not explained how effective controls of the type they envisage can be used without ultimately creating the need for rationing. They seem to me to be deluding themselves and the nation if they pretend that rationing will not be the final result. We certainly do not want to restore those conditions.
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Making up the deficiency as we are doing assures a proper return to the producer and at the same time encourages him to produce the kind of goods and products that the market wants. It gives the consumer and the country the benefit of buying at world prices, while encouraging the producer to produce a high volume of home food of the right kind and the right quantities. This objective never could be achieved in times of plenty and peace if prices were rigidly fixed and schedules of quality, grade and season were issued from offices in Whitehall.
When these changes which we have introduced were made, there were suggestions that it was a device for the Government to withdraw support from the farmer. But today the opposite of that is seen to be the truth. Last year the cost of support to agriculture was about £250 million, and in the current year it is likely to be rather higher. That is a lot of money, but in the aggregate I am convinced that the nation is getting value for it. Once again here is concrete evidence that the Government are standing fully and firmly behind their obligations under the Agriculture Act.
Hon. Members opposite allege sometimes that the free market we have reestablished and the methods we have chosen for assisting home agriculture are unnecessarily costly to the Exchequer. But the market is not being depressed, nor the Exchequer liability increased by our guarantee system, unless by the volume of production which is called forth as a result of the guarantees. Few hon. Members, I think, would suggest that we are wrong in aiming for the highest level of economic output that we can get. The market price is clearly determined by, and reflects the balance between, supplies coming forward and the demand for them.
I now wish to refer to the middleman. What about the suggestion that the Government's policy is providing an easy living for the middleman at the expense of the producer and the consumer? I know that it is easy to tilt at the distributor, particularly if we call him a middleman, but we must not forget that, from the livestock dealer, who takes surplus supplies off the local market and finds markets elsewhere for them, to the wholesaler and the retailer, who see that the customer gets what she wants when

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she wants it, the distributor renders a necessary and useful function.
What evidence is there for the allegation, which I understand is sometimes made, that the middleman and the retailer are absorbing the large sums of money which are devoted to the support of agriculture, and also causing the housewife to pay more than she need for her food? I know that some of this criticism is directed against the meat trade. Some butchers may have been averaging prices between home and imported meat, and charging more for imported frozen meat than was really justified by the prices charged by my Department. That is why I wrote a letter to the retail butchers some weeks ago, and the retail prices of imported meat have dropped since then.
Some criticism of retailers' prices is unreasonable. After all, they are today giving improved services beyond what they could give in the days of control and rationing, and these improved services cost extra money. That does not mean that I do not think we ought to be continually on the watch for chances of encouraging better and more up-to-date methods of distribution. That is why I have recently set up a high-powered committee on horticultural marketing, and why I am now on the point of setting up a pig marketing reorganisation committee. I have no patience whatever with abuses, whether perpetrated by middlemen or any other section, but I am not prepared, as many hon. Members of the Opposition seem to be, to damn the whole of a trade because of misdemeanours alleged against a few members of it.
The answer to the middleman allegation is discriminating and even aggresive buying, accompanied by the most active encouragement of competition. What does the party opposite recommend? Fixed guaranteed prices and controlled retail prices, but have the members of that party thought out how such a system could work? Who will pay the fixed guaranteed prices to the producer? Who will foot the bill for losses of State enterprises that must inevitably occur if those who are going to buy all produce have to buy it at fixed prices, irrespective of the state of the market, and if buyers for that produce have to be found again sometimes at give-away prices?
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How will the middleman be eliminated? Apparently, the State-sponsored machine which hon. Gentlemen opposite have in mind will be taking over wholesale distribution. In other words, it will be a return to State trading in a very big way. I cannot think that this will ever come off, but what would happen to the quality of foodstuffs under such a system?
Mr. Gooch: What happens to milk now?
Mr. Amory: It would be a vast State machine, and an absolute monopoly, and with that kind of organisation we could not possibly expect the production of high quality food.
Mr. Gooch: What about milk?
Mr. Amory: As I mentioned in a speech the other day, milk and bread are two commodities for which we can have a control system, because they are both products the demand for which is inelastic in that it does not vary from day to day.
Mr. Gooch: Does the right hon. Gentleman then regard the Milk Marketing Board as a failure or a success?
Mr. Amory: Very definitely, as a success. I have said many times that milk and bread are two things with which large-scale organisation of sale and distribution is possible.
The kind of system which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have advocated would also be absolutely fatal to variety. Does the party opposite really want a return to the system that produced the kind of meat that we used to get under control?
Mr. Gooch: Nonsense.
Mr. Amory: The story does not end there, because the party opposite, I gather, also intend to introduce retail price control. How would that work in practice? Apparently, hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to control prices at below market prices. Thus, at the controlled prices, demand would be bound to exceed supply, and it follows that some system for sharing out supplies to consumers must accompany any effective price control system. There are many ways of doing it, and all of them are distasteful to the consumer—queues, favouritism, under-the-counter operations, conditional sales and rationing. Hon. Members

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who have had experience of these operations in the days of food control should know that this is true, and should know that this is what happens with price control.
Mr. G. Brown: I will deal later with the allegations about what we propose, but the right hon. Gentleman says that, if we control prices in the shops at below market price, demand would then be bound to exceed supply; hence all the other things which the right hon. Gentleman forecast. That must mean that supplies in the shops at the moment are not sufficient for effective demand. What controls them now?
Mr. Amory: The point I was making was that market prices reflect the difference between supply and demand.
Mr. Brown: Rationing by the purse now.
Mr. Amory: There are so many other things I want to say in this agriculture debate, and one of the difficulties is that there is so much to talk about and so little time in which to do it.
This Government have made production grants a particular feature of their policy. The Opposition reduced these grants, and we restored and increased them.
Mr. T. Williams: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not make a party point on that. It was the Labour Government which initiated certain production grants, with which we always agreed, but, when we introduced them, we usually had a four-year period, and they only faded away after that period expired.
Mr. Amory: I want to be just, and I will give the right hon. Gentleman the credit for having started a number of these grants, but I do not give him so much credit for having allowed them to fade away. I believe that they are very sound in principle, and that in practice they inject ready cash into production, and in many cases are a particular help to the small farmer and the farmer on the more difficult land. We have reintroduced or improved the fertiliser subsidy, the liming subsidy, the ploughing grant and the calf subsidy and grants for drainage, water supplies and the marginal production schemes. It is estimated that these production grants will cost about
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£60 million this year, compared with about £50 million last year and with just over £30 million when we came into office.
Mr. Frederick Peart: Will the right hon. Gentleman also say what the Government intend to do about cheap credit facilities for farmers, which was one of the things which the Conservative Party promised, and so far we have not had that promise fulfilled?
Mr. Amory: Again, I have made statements in this House on this point and I have said that I agree that it is an important thing. I have studied it very carefully, and I must tell the House that so far I have not found any wide gap in the facilities that are already available. I am keeping a very close eye on this, because if there was a bad gap it would be serious. I have quoted figures in the House on several occasions. I can only say that I am keeping an open mind and that it remains our policy to ensure that credit facilities are available. I believe that they are available today.
I want to say this about horticulture. I am glad that we have been able to increase the tariffs on a wide range of horticultural products during the past two years. This has been a substantial help to the industry. I well know the difficulties with which horticultural producers are grappling, and we will continue to safeguard the welfare of this most important section of the industry.
The right hon. Member for Don Valley referred to the fall in the tillage area. It is true that the tillage area has fallen recently, and the right hon. Gentleman quoted this as a proof that our desires have not always been fulfilled. I remind him, however, that the same thing occurred very often during his period of office too, when the results achieved looked very odd compared with the plans he had made in advance.
I hope that those acres which have come off tillage will go into good grass leys, but I would be particularly sorry to see a falling trend in tillage acreage in the traditionally arable farming areas. I hope that that will not happen. It has happened only to a small extent in those areas so far. I repeat again that we need a high arable acreage for many reasons, in particular for balance of payments reasons. That was why we increased the

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guaranteed prices this year for barley and oats.
I want for a moment to consider what has happened to the aggregate net output of the industry during the present Government's term of office. Up till the beginning of the past exceptionally bad season the net output continued steadily to increase. Since the Government took office, the indices have risen from 145 in 1951—that was a few months before the Labour Government went out of office—to 155 in 1954. The forecast for this year, after the exceptionally bad season, is two points down at 153.
Mr. T. Williams: The 1955 White Paper estimates that it will be 152. We do not know where we are.
Mr. Amory: It will be two or three points down. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that in 1946–47, when he had the misfortune to have a bad year, I think, the drop was six points. That deals with net output.
What about the net income of the industry? The average aggregate net income of the industry over the past four years has substantially exceeded the average of the previous five years. The gross investment in fixed equipment, in terms of money, has been maintained, although I admit I would like to see still higher figures, because I agree that the value of money has not remained constant. Productivity per man has continued steadily to increase at a rate faster than that in most other industries. By any test, from whichever angle one looks at it, the past three and a half years have been years of improvement, achievement and progress.
Lieut-Colonel Marcus Lipton: Does the increased productivity to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred outweigh the drift from the land which has been going on all the time under the present Administration?
Mr. Amory: Yes. The drift from the land began long before the time of the present Administration, but the increase in productivity does, I am glad to say, exceed the fall in the total labour force.
As a Government we have no part to play directly in marketing, but we are anxious that the industry should work out the most efficient marketing arrangements
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possible for its products. Efficient marketing is extremely important. As hon. Members know, we have a number of marketing schemes already in existence, and we have approved financial arrangements under which producers can now put forward and operate an egg marketing board if they wish to promote one. In fact, we are anxious to give facilities to producers to promote marketing schemes in every case where one can be devised that will work efficiently in the general interest.
I want to take the opportunity of announcing that for the season 1955–56 Recommissioned Mills Limited will again be operating under the control of my Department to provide a drying and storage service, on broadly the present lines, for wheat and coarse grain, charging commercial rates. The National Farmers' Unions and other interests concerned are now being consulted as to the detailed arrangements to be made in the light of last year's experience.
I am far from maintaining that all marketing problems in agriculture have yet been solved. There are still problems concerning the marketing of pigs and pig products. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have appointed a reorganisation commission to investigate and report. Similarly, as I have mentioned, we have appointed a committee to inquire into horticultural marketing. I am convinced that whatever defects there may be in the workings of some aspects of the competitive system, it is in every way preferable to a return to the control system envisaged by the party opposite. I have not the slightest doubt that if housewives realise the full implications of price control they will vote unhesitatingly for the present freedom of choice. So much for the past.
I want to take a quick look at the future. After the worst season for 50 years, I am glad to tell the House that the doughty efforts of farmers and farm workers in the past month or two are achieving wonders in restoring the situation. The fine weather throughout April enabled farmers to make excellent progress in sowing their spring corn and much of the time lost because of the bad weather is now being made up.
The industry has been much encouraged by the steps taken by the Government at the recent Annual Review. The

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new price guarantees and production grants will, I am convinced, ensure the resources required by the industry to enable farmers to maintain their net output, and, indeed, to expand it in the directions most needed.
Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Does that apply to pigs as well?
Mr. Amory: Yes, because, as I have said before, that is not one of the directions in which that help is needed. We cannot do with more pigs than we have at present until we can get the costs down and concentrate on the quality that we require.
All this has been backed by research and technical advisory services. The Government have been financing agricultural research and are doing so at the rate of about £6 million a year, compared with less than £4½ million in 1950–51. In my opinion no other expenditure is more worth while over the years or will earn bigger dividends. The attested herds scheme has made astonishing strides in the last four years. We now have about half our total cattle attested as against one-quarter four years ago.
The practical effect of this research and advisory work can be shown, and is an indication of the way in which farmers are now making use of the new techniques, by looking at the increased yields that have taken place over the last few years. Comparing the average of the years 1952 to 1954 with the average of the years 1949 to 1951, we find that the yield per acre for wheat is up by 6½ per cent.; of barley, by 7½ per cent.; oats, 7 per cent.; potatoes, 6½ per cent.; sugar beet, 3½ per cent. and turnips and swedes, 11½ per cent. Milk yields per cow are up by 8½ per cent. and eggs per hen are up by 16 per cent. I would like to express my grateful thanks to county and district committees for the invaluable help they have given and are giving me and farmers in all these matters.
If agriculture is to flourish, we must be sure that it has a chance of doing so against the background of a flourishing countryside. Housing, water supply, electricity, transport and education—all these things must be made as good as we can get them. Much remains to be done, but in all these matters progress in the past three years has been encouraging and much faster than it was in any of
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the years preceding. Let me quote one or two examples. As against every four houses built in rural areas in 1951, between eight and nine houses were built last year. As against £1½ million spent on water schemes in 1951, £3 million were paid out last year. Last year 13,000 farms were connected up to electricity—easily a record—and this year the aim is 14,000.
I agree with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education that better educational facilities in country areas justify completely the high priority which the Government are now giving these matters, the importance of which cannot be exaggerated. On several occasions I have said I believe that in Britain we have the best farm workers in the world. The hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch) will testify to that fact, I think. The improvements I have mentioned will do much to ensure that those who earn their livelihoods in the country have the conditions they deserve.
It has been stated already that we intend to introduce a Measure for health, safety and welfare in agriculture as soon as Parliamentary time can be found—
Mr. Gooch: The Government have been saying that for years.
Mr. Amory: Finally may I take a glance at the more distant horizon. At the risk of being called an idealist I like to look at the horizon sometimes, and what I see there gives me steady confidence. I have great faith in the skill and adaptability of our farmers and farm workers, both old and young. The progress of recent years, to which I have referred, in crop, grass and milk yields, in the breeding of our stock, in animal health, in mechanisation and in farm management, offers us assured hopes of further progress in the future. The population of this country—over 50 million—enjoying a high level of employment and rising standards of living, will provide an expanding market for high-quality products from agriculture. We have had experience of this during the past few months and behind all that, the permanent policy of the present Government, which of course will be the next Government too—
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: More wishful thinking.
Mr. Amory: And perhaps the permanent Government of this country—
Mr. G. Brown: A diktat, is it?
Mr. Amory: The permanent policy of this Government is steadfastly to continue the support of the industry, so that it can continue to serve the nation to the utmost of its potential resources. There are no grounds for complacency because fresh problems beset us every day, but I believe sincerely that British agriculture has never been in better shape nor in better fettle nor better served than it is today. I am sure that it will give a good account of itself in the challenging but hopeful years ahead.
Mr. T. Williams: Before he sits down, will not the right hon. Gentleman attempt to answer any of the questions I submitted to him?
Mr. Amory: I think the right hon. Gentleman will find, when he studies what I have said, that during the course of my speech I have answered three of the questions he raised. However, there was one I did not answer and, with your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I will answer it now. The right hon. Gentleman asked how many slaughterhouses we have in use at present. The answer is about 4,500. He knows that there is a committee sitting on this matter which I hope will report within two months. After we have considered that report, we shall have to decide on future policy for slaughterhouses. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that many important steps will have to be taken in this section of the industry as soon as the basic information is available.
5.25 p.m.
Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: We on this side of the House have an advantage over hon. Gentlemen opposite, in that when a Minister recites his Election piece, describing glowing states of affairs which he knows exist only in his imagination, and then imagines what will be thought by people outside who really know, whose bread and butter is concerned with these things, his eyes go into a glassy stare, as we saw in the case of the Minister just now. Indeed, we saw it with the Prime Minister earlier in the afternoon when he was giving the most shameful piece of electoral bribery which most of us in this House have ever heard.
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For instance, the Minister of Agriculture spoke in glowing terms in his peroration of the service rendered to agriculture. He said how well served agriculture has been. I thought it was a little immodest.
Mr. Amory: I meant served by those who work in it, not by the Government or by myself.
Mr. Mallalieu: Then I must accept from the right hon. Gentleman that he was not so immodest as I thought he was—
Mr. G. Brown: Or so inaccurate.
Mr. Mallalieu: Or, as my right hon. Friend suggests, as inaccurate as I believed he was. The Minister was at least modest when he said there was no room here for complacency. That we could all approve. I do not understand why the right hon. Gentleman spoke so warmly about the support which he and his party had given to agriculture recently considering that the incomes of farmers have gone down by £40 million in the last year. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the increase in subsidy or other payments which are supposed to be in support of farmers, saying how these had gone up in the last year. If the support given by the Government to agriculture has gone up even by only a few millions, as the Minister claims, and farming incomes have gone down, where has that money gone? The suggestion of my right hon. and hon. Friends on this side of the House is that it has gone to the middle men to a large extent. If not, where has it gone? Plainly it has not gone to the farmers since their incomes are down.
The Minister said that the Socialists look wistfully to a past period of planning. Of course we do: and it is true that the past era of planning was prosperous. Now prosperity has gone from the agricultural industry—prosperity as we knew it some time ago. So of course it is true that now we are planning for a future era of prosperity which we hope will return to agriculture when once again we bring stability and security to this industry.
Perhaps the most striking feature of these disastrous three years of Conservative rule to which we have been subjected has been the manner in which the confidence of the agricultural industry in

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the intentions of Government—whatever the party may be—has been completely dissipated. By painstaking work, by a great deal of thought—some of it not very recent thought, as my right hon. Friend has pointed out, but thought that had been indulged in over a long period of years—by that thought and by that painstaking effort the Labour Government did produce a state of confidence on the part of the agricultural community in the intentions of Government. That has now all gone.
The Minister tried to persuade the House that recently the trend was the other way. He did not give much evidence of it, and I must confess that I have not seen it. Perhaps it is my fault. In reading the agricultural Press and in talking to farmers, I do not find any return of that confidence at all. How did this come about? Is it not simply that the people who pay the piper call the tune, and that the people who paid the piper of the party opposite have been none other than big business in the towns? They wanted to get rid of all controls in order that they might introduce for themselves an era of smash-and-grab. That they surely have had their era of smash-and-grab can be seen from the Economic Survey. We have only to look at the way the profits of companies have gone up.
The sad point about it is that these controls having been removed at the behest of town big business, they had to be removed also from agriculture; otherwise town big business would have looked so silly had agriculture prospered under the controls which they had said were harmful to industry in general. If during this period of smash-and-grab town big business had expanded our exports, there might have been some excuse for all this. Unfortunately they have gone for the easy money of the home market, which has resulted in the sorry state of the balance of payments of which we are now only too well aware. However, if controls had to come off their businesses they had to see that controls came off agriculture, otherwise comparisons very unfavourable to the Tory policy of absence of controls would have been made.
Under this Conservative Administration controls came off agriculture, in spite of the fact that the majority of farmers
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realised, I am quite sure, that those controls were not fetters but were merely orderly arrangements freely arrived at between themselves and the Government to enable them to carry on their business in a proper and orderly way, to free them to a very large extent from the incubus of the unnecessary middle man and to free them—and here is the essence of the matter—to carry on what should be their main job, that of food production. They ought not to have to leave that job in order to spend their time haggling in private deals or wasting their time and energies in going back to the old system of auctions.
The auctions have been brought in again, with all the frustration to which they can so often lead, with the folly of their gamble and the waste of time and the distraction from what should be the farmer's main effort. Controls brought to the farmer independence from the freebooter. By this Conservative Government he has now to a large extent been handed back into the control of the freebooter and price-ring maker once more. The whole reason, of course, is that the Conservatives do not like controls. They know that controls lead to planning—and the farmer now knows that the absence of planning leads to drift. And the farmer knows that drift may only too easily mean a return to those conditions in the 'twenties and 'thirties from which Labour rescued the industry.
Colonel Sir Ralph Clarke: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman say from what conditions in the 'twenties and 'thirties the Socialist Party rescued agriculture? I do not remember that it helped much over the Corn Production Act.
Mr. Mallalieu: The Socialist Party was not the controlling party then, but when it was the controlling party it took such steps as the 1947 Agriculture Act which restored security to agriculture. It is the taking of security from agriculture of which I am now complaining. I am not surprised that there should have been a letter the other week in the "Farmer and Stockbreeder" signed "Lincoln Farmer" which ended up: "Vote for the Tories? Never again."
Hon. Gentlemen opposite may have seen the letter in "The Times" some weeks ago from Lieut.-Colonel Corbett,

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who used to be a distinguished Member of this House. He seemed to put the matter in a nut-shell from our point of view when he said, in effect, farmers now wish to be relieved of the burden of disposing of their produce. That is precisely what Labour hopes to do for the farming community—to leave those working in it to get on with their own job of food production, and to leave the distracting burden of disposing of their produce to specialist agencies well suited for the purpose. That is what Labour hopes to bring back in the very near future and what will again restore confidence on the part of the agricultural community in the intentions of Government.
Mr. Kenneth Thompson: Before the hon. and learned Gentleman leaves that point, could he extend his argument one stage further? Would he be prepared to offer the services of a Labour Government to enable, for example, the Lancashire cotton industry to dispose of its products after it has concentrated on producing them?
Mr. Mallalieu: The Lancashire cotton industry, being in totally different circumstances from agriculture, may be able to dispose of its goods on its own—I do not know—but I am now speaking of agriculture. I am sure that the farmers are ready and willing to have this system so that they can get on with their real job.
5.37 p.m.
Mr. Denys Bullard: I have only two points to raise, with, perhaps, another possible half a point. The first relates to what has been going on as regards the level of production. Being in the business myself, I am very well aware of what has been happening and of the general feeling in the farming community. Whatever deductions we draw from the index of net agricultural output, the fact is that agricultural output has been rising until the last disastrous year, and that this follows a fall in the years around 1950 and 1951.
The tillage acreage is a figure to which I, as an arable farmer and the Member for an Eastern Counties constituency, attach the very greatest importance, but the tillage acreage between 1950 and 1951 in England and Wales fell by 269,000 acres. It then rose steadily year by year
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until last year, when it fell by 159,000 acres. That is admittedly a big drop and one of which we have to take account, but it was not as big as the fall in tillage acreage in 1950–51.
There was also a considerable fall at that time in the numbers of cattle. Between 1950 and 1951 the number of cattle fell by 102,000, and between 1951 and 1952 by 185,000. It was not until 1952–53, I think very largely due to the restoration and extension of the calf-rearing subsidy, that the number rose by 134,000, and between 1953 and 1954 it rose again by 209,000. Those figures indicate very clearly that there was a downward trend in production around the years 1950 and 1951 which was reversed by the measures taken by the present Government on their coming into office.
In this matter of increased production, I wish that hon. Gentlemen opposite would pay due regard to the increase in the number of pigs. I propose in a moment to refer to the question of the marketing of pigs, but, in considering the question of increased production, hon. Gentlemen opposite take up a rather false position when they tend to ignore the tremendous increase in pig production, an increase of around 2 million over the last three years. I should have thought that, though it has brought problems of marketing, it was a factor of production which it was quite impossible to ignore.
Lieut-Colonel Lipton: The Minister of Agriculture took great credit for the over-all increase in agricultural production which has taken place under the present Government, but he did not say how much of this production was attributable to the increase in the number of pigs. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could enlighten us on that.
Mr. Bullard: I cannot give an exact figure. I am saying that the increase in the number of pigs is a factor of production which no one can ignore, and one which has enabled meat to be taken off the ration.
I now turn to quite another matter connected with production. I am always concerned about the fall in the number of farm workers. To my mind, that is a matter which must be watched very carefully. Hon. Members opposite have referred to the drift from the land, which

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is undoubtedly a problem of long standing. There are many aspects of it, and it cannot be separated from the increase in mechanisation which has taken place.
The fall in the number of regular farm workers, including both male and female, in England and Wales between 1950 and 1951 was about 21,500. Between 1951 and 1952, it was 20,100. Between 1952 and 1953, it was 13,400, and between 1953 and 1954, 13,300. That shows that the fall in the number of regular farm workers during the last two years has not been so rapid as it was during the previous two years.
How do hon. Members opposite match those figures with their suggestion of an all-round decline in confidence in the industry? I am gratified with the rate at which mechanisation has proceeded. There has been an enormous increase in the number of tractors, combine harvesters, pick-up balers, and of other modern machines. Between the 1953 census of agricultural machinery and that of 1954, the number of tractors rose from 283,000 to 334,000, an increase of 51,000, which, I think, is one indication of a very rapid advance and improvement in our agricultural techniques.
I now turn to the very important question of agricultural marketing. We on this side of the House put our faith in the continued operation of the Annual Farm Price Review. I have here a copy of the last issue of the "British Farmer," the official organ of the N.F.U., which has some very pertinent comment on its front page dealing with the operation of the February Price Review under the new conditions which have been operating in this country. It says:
"The lessons of each annual review are always worthy of study, but the eleventh in the series, 1955, has produced certain elements of particular significance. Undoubtedly the most important of these is the fact that this review was the first to be negotiated wholly in terms of free markets, and the results emphasised that the medium of Part I of the Agricultural Act was sufficiently flexible and practical to apply as effectively in the new conditions of freedom as it did to the relatively simpler mechanics of price control."
It also says:
"Whatever criticisms there might have been of the results, the review machine has proved itself in the new circumstances."
That is a very important statement on the part of the National Farmers' Union. It
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proves that the price guarantee system, to which we on this side of the House attach very great importance, operates successfully under the new conditions.
In his speech, the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) said that farmers were quite ready to have taken from them the whole responsibility and burden of disposing of their produce. I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has quite rightly judged the feelings of the farming community on that point. Farmers may be willing for the responsibility to be taken from them if they are absolutely assured of a full and good price under that system.
I should have thought that the method of fixed prices would very greatly weaken the farmer's power in putting forward his point of view about prices at the Annual Price Review. It would weaken their bargaining power. I know that, ultimately, the responsibility for fixing prices under the Price Review rests with my right hon. Friend, but, to my mind, a fixed price system would very greatly weaken the farmer's position if, in fact, the Government were the sole buyers of his produce.
I entirely agree with what my right hon. Friend said about the inevitability of the fixed price system leading to allocation and rationing. I was very interested to read, in the "History of the Second World War" by R. J. Hammond, in the volume dealing with food and the beginning of rationing in war-time, that neither the Ministry nor the retail trade liked the prospect of control without rationing. I think they realised that, if there were a partial control over food and its distribution without rationing, they would land themselves in very considerable difficulties.
I believe that those difficulties would be repeated in peace-time, and that if, under present circumstances, the Government had to purchase all livestock products, including pork and beef, they would have no alternative at the moment but to compel people to eat pork. That, it seems to me, would be the inevitable step which the Government would have to take at the present time if they had complete control over the purchase of livestock on a scale of fixed prices. That would be the method by which they would attempt to solve the present pig problem. There would be the

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great temptation for them to say, "If you do not eat the pork, then you will have to go without meat altogether." To my mind that would be a very wrong decision to take, because I believe that the problem of our pig production can be solved by much better methods than that.
Mr. G. Brown: The hon. Gentleman said that he agreed with his right hon. Friend that fixed prices and assured markets lead to that sort of thing. I have just been looking up what was said by the present Leader of the House during the Committee stage of the 1947 Act. He said:
"We have said that we agree with the principle … that there should be guaranteed prices and assured markets … We all agree about that."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 13th February, 1947; c. 63.]
I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that he agrees with his right hon. Friend in no longer agreeing with that. When did the Leader of the House change his mind?
Mr. Bullard: The right hon. Gentleman must understand me correctly on this point. I stated absolutely definitely that it was the system of fixed prices and Government purchases which would lead to the consequences I mentioned. On the other hand, I am all in favour of guaranteed prices and assured markets, but they have to be administered by methods very different from those which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends are suggesting in their manifesto, in which they say what schemes they would put into operation if they were returned to power.
I am against the fixed-price idea, which is entirely different in conception from that of the guaranteed price and the assured market, although hon. Gentlemen are putting the fixed-price idea before farmers as being the same as the guaranteed price.
Mr. G. Brown: If the guaranteed price can be guaranteed without being fixed, what is the guarantee?
Mr. Bullard: Surely the right hon. Gentleman has read the speech made on the Second Reading of the Agriculture Bill by his own right hon. Friend. I have studied it with great care, and also the Financial Memorandum linked with the Bill, in which the meaning of guaranteed prices was fully set out. It was fully
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understood by the farming community, which also reads and studies these matters with very great care. That distinction should be obvious to the right hon. Gentleman. On this side of the House we believe in the extension of the principle of the producer marketing board as the alternative to the conception of the fixed price. We have made our attitude very clear.
My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and his predecessor have restored full trading power to the Milk Marketing Board. Tonight I hope we shall approve of the Scheme for the revival of the Potato Marketing Board, which would be of very great importance to my constituents. My right hon. Friend has also agreed to the principle of the financial basis of an Egg Marketing Board, and now he has taken steps to set up a Reorganisation Commission for pigs under the agricultural marketing Acts.
I want to say a few words on the subject of pig marketing and the cost of the pig guarantee. Although my right hon. Friend has said on many occasions that pig prices are too high, yet I have it from some very careful and efficient pig producers that with costs as they are at present they have a job to make a profit out of producing pigs.
Lieut-Colonel Lipton: It cannot be done.
Mr. Bullard: We are sometimes apt to make comparisons with pig production in Denmark, but they do not always truly reflect the difference in cost in the two countries. I accept as a fact that there are difficulties in this direction, but I always ask pig producers in my constituency to look at the guaranteed-price structure as a whole. Some people are specialist pig producers. The hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton), judging from all that he has to say about pigs, must be a specialist pig producer. The majority of farmers, large and small, who are pig producers derive their income partly from pigs, partly from livestock, and partly from crops.
I ask them to look at the picture as a whole. It is not possible to pay to the pig side of the industry a disproportionate share of the guarantees which are being paid to the industry as a whole.

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The payments amounted to about £60 million last year and I understand they will be £80 million in the coming year. That must be recognised as a very full share of the total amount of the agricultural guarantees as a whole. That is the first point which pig producers should bear in mind.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that where producing pigs is only a side-line or a subsidiary to general farming work the farmer is to meet the cost of producing pigs out of the profits he makes on other lines of agricultural activity?
Mr. Bullard: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not justified in that assumption. I am asking producers to look at the guaranteed-price structure as a whole. That is what we are doing today. The purpose of the guaranteed price is not just to benefit farmers and farm workers but to ensure that agriculture produces the kinds of food which are generally required and produces them in their proper balance.
The main problem to be overcome in this part of the industry is that of summer production. It is no use avoiding that issue. The consumer will not purchase pork in big quantities in the summer. That is the problem to which we must all direct our attention, and not make party capital out of it. It is a fundamental problem affecting the pig industry. I want to see as much marketing organisation in that industry as possible. The Fatstock Corporation has been right in putting a premium on high quality pigs delivered to it, and what may be regarded as a penalty on lower quality pigs. It accumulated a fund with which it has been able to cushion to some extent the difference in price between winter and summer, which has been the curse of the pig market and influences the amount of money which has to be found by the Chancellor to make up the guarantee.
I am sure that the principle is right and may be extended further in the pig industry. It may be that we should extend the principle of producer marketing to the whole of the pig industry. That may be the outcome of the Reorganisation Commission's findings. We do not know. I certainly do not want
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to prejudge those findings, but there is a case for suggesting that a greater degree of organisation might help us with this fundamental problem. Meanwhile producers do have their guaranteed price.
I want to make only two further points on production and marketing, and to ride a hobby horse on this agricultural theme if I may, before I sit down. I refer to the problem which I have raised in this House many times of smallholdings. I am as much of the opinion as ever I was that we most urgently require an extension of opportunity for people who want to start smallholdings on their own. I am sorry that faster progress has not been made in this matter.
One difficulty is the high cost of land and equipment, but I hope we shall press further ahead in this matter. The Norfolk County Council has made some progress in this matter, but in Norfolk and over the country generally progress is not as rapid as I should like to see.
I hope that the Minister of Agriculture will give attention to these points when he gets back to office after the Election, and that he will do his best to encourage local authorities to go ahead. I believe this matter is not unconnected with the problem of keeping people satisfied with their job on the land, because people like to see a prospect of "having a go" on their own after they have done a period of work at working for someone else.
6.0 p.m.
Mr. Harold Davies: We always listen to the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Bullard) with great interest, and give him credit for knowing what he is talking about. In contrast with most of the speakers from the other side of the House this evening, he has not tried to make a General Election speech. I am grateful to him for the honesty of his approach to this problem of agriculture.
In company with my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), I want to point out that we must do something about the figures which we are given by the Government. I am supposed to be fairly good at arithmetic, not like the father of the ex-Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill)—who, like a rogue elephant, will be sitting shortly on the back benches—who was never able

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to manipulate decimal points. I am supposed to be able to do it, but I find that the Written Answer given by the Minister to my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) yesterday differed completely from the figures which the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West gave today when he spoke about the reduction in acreage under tillage.
The written Answer given yesterday was:
"The June census returns show that the acreage under tillage (crops and bare fallow) in the United Kingdom was 12,304,000 acres in 1953 and 11,832,000 acres in 1954."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd May, 1955; Vol. 540, c. 89.]
I admit that the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West may have made a different approach to the figures.
Mr. Bullard: I have not relied on any compendium for the figures. I extracted them from my files yesterday. I do not know whether the hon. Member is using different terms. I used the term "arable," or at least should have done so.
Mr. Davies: That confirms my opinion that occasionally figures can be used on either side of the House to prove any kind of argument.
I want the House and the country to realise that over the past 10 years it has been my right hon. Friends who, more than anybody, have made agriculture the primary debating issue on the Floor of the House. There was a tendency for 30 years or more, on both sides of the House, to neglect the problems of rural England. Frenchmen, Dutchmen and Scandinavians who came to this country and saw how it was that
"The rolling English drunkard made the rolling English road."
were amazed at the neglect beyond the hedgerows in our countryside.
But we have learned in Britain, especially in times of modern war and in times when the art of war strategy is finished for ever, that the most important asset which Britain possesses is the ability to produce the maximum amount of food. Without going into the mass of statistics which would prove my point, I charge the Government with having had a lower rate of agricultural production during their term of office than we had when we were in power.
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It is trickery, and I should have thought it beneath the present Prime Minister, to make the statement which he made about textiles today, when we had been told categorically by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it would be impossible to make any further concessions to the textile industry. Now, just on the eve of a General Election, and it may be for all sorts of reasons because of the atmosphere that is growing, we find that we have a piece of political trickery in the shape of a statement by the right hon. Gentleman, for whom all of us in Britain, of whatever party, have great respect. It was a desperate procedure. We could see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was chagrined and uncomfortable because his advice, as one who is in charge of the nation's purse, had been pushed aside and neglected.
The party opposite is afraid that the electorate of rural Britain will start moving in favour of this side of the House once again because we honoured our pledges to British farming. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper and others amongst us have been asking for months, long before we reached a General Election atmosphere and these deteriorated standards of debate, that the House should be given the opportunity to discuss farming quietly at the usual level of debate which we enjoy in the House. I appealed many times to the Leader of the House, and so did my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper, but I think that I am correct in saying that on no occasion during the past months was Government time given to us to discuss this vital problem. The reason was that the Government's promises to the small farmers and others have been broken.
The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West, of whose honesty of approach and sincerity we have no doubt, asked his party to expand policy in relation to smallholdings—when the Bank Rate is 4½ per cent. and the raising of capital is so difficult for the small farmer. Initiative is smothered under this party of a property-owning democracy which was going to give a fillip to initiative and freedom for the small man.
Let the House imagine a small man who has been working in the pits of Durham or South Wales, who has had to come out of the pits because of pneumoconiosis or some other chest disease,

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and who would like to farm in the fresh air of the Welsh hills or the Pennines. Suppose that he has had £400 or so in compensation. Could he start on a smallholding with that amount of capital? Could he go to the bank and hope to find there that drive and that fillip which the Government have promised? Would the Bank Rate be a priming pump for small-farm production? No.
I believe that the Government are ignoring a credit policy for the small farmer. The Government are on the side of the big farmer. I do not want to repeat statistics to the House to prove my case, but I can obtain such statistics. The incomes of large farmers are expanding whilst the small farmer has a job to make £10 a week without counting the help which he is given on the farm by his wife and children.
The pig is a wonderful animal which has appeared in our nursery rhymes down the ages. Suddenly the Tory Party has discovered him. The Government said first to the pig producers, "Produce for all you are worth," but afterwards we had the Minister saying, "We have too many pigs." Unfortunately, the pig is a very expensive animal to eat. In eating him we are eating dollars all the time.
There is more in this question of pig production than a matter of the small farmer versus the big farmer. We shall never be able to feed the pig economically so long as the House of Commons, whatever party is in power, has not the courage to tackle the milling monopolies and thus enable the small man to procure offals cheaply. Three large combines control flour milling in this country. I understand that if a farmer buys back the offals he has to pay a higher price than he obtained for the wheat which he sold to the mills in the first place. Something should be done about that.
If something were done about that, it would do a great deal to liberate initiative and to open up the springs of Conservative property-owning democracy in rural Britain. The party opposite will not do anything about it because it is a party which is in the hands of the big financiers in the City. It is only a few months since a group in the City produced an important document denigrating British agriculture and asking that once again we should go back to a policy of allowing the farmer to function in a
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laissez-faire economy and of importing into Britain as much food as possible. That, of course, is the ideal, and I should like to do it. If we could get that kind of world it would be much better for all mankind.
I say that British agriculture today is in a much more shaky position. As my right hon. Friend asked, how many bankruptcies are there in British agriculture today. I do not want to bore the House with figures because it takes time to quote them, but the fact is that there are more bankruptcies in British agriculture now under the Conservative Government than there were before. No matter what statements are made from the Dispatch Box, no matter how the Government make categorical statements with resounding phrases, there can be no doubt that there are more bankruptcies in British farming today than there were when Labour was in power. Will anyone opposite get up and denounce that statement? Let them try.
Mr. Bullard: The hon. Gentleman is making his point, but I would not set too much store by the number of bankruptcies. Many other factors lead to bankruptcy, quite apart from the return for the produce which is sold. He would be drawing a false conclusion about agricultural policy generally if he relied on the figures of bankruptcies.
Mr. Davies: Many factors lead to bankruptcy but the fact still remains that the numbers of bankruptcies today are higher than they were. It does not alter my facts one iota. It is admitted that there are more bankruptcies under this party. Is the party that claims to defend the small farmers going to say that British farmers have grown worse in their capacity?
Mr. Philip Bell: The thing is that the farmers have been tested. The hon. Member must realise that free enterprise has not arrived free, it is a test.
Mr. Davies: Exactly, but that is playing into my hands. Will the hon. and learned Gentleman go to the cattle markets of Britain with red, white and blue ribbons showing and tell the hardworking farmer who is trying to sell his produce that the Conservative Government are putting him to such a test that if they are restored to power there will

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be higher bankruptcies than ever? I do not mind, but tell them that at Election times, and not in between them—
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: And not in the House.
Mr. Davies: I shall be speaking at a cattle market tomorrow. I shall use this information, and I shall be justified in using it. I am not going to bore the House with any further facts, but I have heard no arguments and no policy. We on this side of the House are charged with not having a policy. I have heard of a suggested agricultural producers' marketing scheme. We gave birth to ideas like that. As my right hon. Friend said, 30 years ago we were trying to work out a policy outside the old laissez faire under which British agriculture was allowed to work in the days of Chamberlain.
Neither is there a policy in the party opposite about monopolies. My right hon. Friend, in opening this debate, asked what were we prepared to do not only to help agriculture but the whole of productive industry in regard to petrol, oil and such other important raw materials. The facts are on record. Only a few weeks ago the hon. Gentleman for Norfolk, South-West was giving us examples of how, since the Tory Party came to power, the price of fertilisers has gone up somewhere in the neighbourhood of £8 million and feeding stuff prices £12 million. I am leaving the decimal points out for the moment. The only way in which that can be dealt with is by tackling the growth of monopolies, which are sucking the initiative and the life blood of the farmers, particularly the hill farmers and the small farmers.
I took the trouble to read the policy expounded by my opponent at the last Election, and I have here the Tory book of answers prepared for this Election. I see that even the price for this book of answers has gone up since 1952. I looked for a policy, and after reading the main features I can say that there is no true policy to be found in the Conservative Party statement. But here are all the questions which the Young Conservatives will be asking during the coming Election. I shall be prepared. I am always prepared for the Young Conservatives. We have a very charming and pleasant time together.
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Let us come to something real. I paid a visit to the Conservative Central Office today and bought a copy of the party's "Agricultural Marketing." I thought, "We will get something concrete out of this." I remember discussing this question of agricultural and horticultural marketing over a year ago in the House, and I mentioned the problem of the distribution by Covent Garden of foodstuffs, vegetables and flowers from the Scilly Isles. I argued that Covent Garden had grown too large, that it was antiquated and that it resulted in a waste of manpower, petrol and other commodities. I suggested the creation of a central market with plenty of fresh air, light and better facilities for the distribution of these fresh vegetables, fruit and flowers.
So I opened this publication giving the dynamic policy of the Conservative Party—this party which is going to give freedom and initiative to the small man—and I turned to page 46 thinking that I would find something. I did, and this is what I read:
"Unfortunately the present system is often judged by the appearance of Covent Garden, which at the busy time of the morning is not a reassuring spectacle. The congestion, delays and traffic jams leave the casual visitor wondering how anyone in London gets fresh vegetables at all. This congestion is the result of the physical limitations of the market and not of the defects of the system. The market was designed centuries ago to carry a fraction of the present trade, and since there was no room to expand it has become progressively more congested. In a new market large enough to handle the present volume of produce the impression might well be very different."
I said to myself, "Here it comes, we are going to have a new market." Then the next sentence read:
"There seems little prospect of this appearing in the near future and the result is that growers are being driven to find alternative markets in the provinces where the delays are not so serious."
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Will my hon. Friend allow me?
Mr. Davies: If my hon. and gallant Friend will not interrupt me too long I will give way. But I do not want to be attacked from both sides of the House.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In connection with the difficulties of vegetable growers, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the consumption of fresh vegetables in this

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country has gone down from 130 lb. per head in 1951 to 117 lb. per head in 1954? The outlook for vegetable producers is indeed gloomy.
Mr. Davies: My hon. and gallant Friend could have made a first-class point with that information had he caught Mr. Speaker's eye. It would have been much more effective. It is because I know the value of my hon. and gallant Friend's statement that I have now allowed him to get it on record.
There are two other points I want to make. When we proposed the nationalisation of electricity we were scoffed at by small-minded men and women who played the cheap political party game, but I wonder what would have happened to the 13,000 farms which have been supplied with electricity by the nationalised undertaking. I give due praise for that to whatever Government have been in power for getting on with the job. Thirteen thousand farmers have been given electricity while this Government have been in office. Do the Conservative Party think that electricity would have been supplied to that number of farms if the electricity industry had been left un-nationalised? Is it the view of Conservative hon. Members that, because more farms would then get electricity, it should be the policy to denationalise the industry? No, the Conservative Party does not mean what it is saying at the present time.
Sir R. Clarke Sir R. Clarke rose—
Mr. Davies: I cannot give way. I must finish. I have been speaking a little too long.
I am pleased to see that at last India is coming into the market with fodder. For the first time since 1941 we have this year had about 75,000 tons of fodder, cakes and so on. That is worth while, and I am delighted that it has happened. There was no magnificent statement about the fodder from India such as there was today about the textile position, because that happened a month or so ago. My hon. Friends and I believe that if we had intelligent long-term agreements with many such friendly countries prices would be cheaper and the development of those countries would be aided. We welcome India's entry into this market again.
At the last General Election my hon. Friends and I were scoffed at over the
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balance of payments problem, but the position is even worse now. In this matter agriculture is of vital importance. Of all the parties which have come into power in this country, it was the Labour Party which had the courage to keep its promises.
I want to know what the Conservative Party's policy is to be about rent per acre in Great Britain. At the moment the figure is about £7. In Holland it is about £6, in Norway £5 10s., and Sweden £8 10s. The Chairman of the Agricultural Executive Committee in Cheshire, Colonel Verdin, in a paper read the other day before a group of influential agricultural people, advocated that the rent per acre of land should increase. If the Conservative Party returns to power, will it be part of its policy to increase rent per acre, as advocated by that gentleman? The small tenant-farmers and small farmers in my constituency would like to know.
I have no hesitation in saying—of course there has been progress; that is bound to happen—that there will be 250,000 more votes in rural polling booths for a Labour Government this time than at the last General Election.
Sir John Barlow: The hon. Gentleman said that rents were about £7 per acre in this country. Will he tell us where he got the figure?
Mr. Davies: I shall have the greatest pleasure in showing the information to the hon. Member in the Library after the debate.
Sir J. Barlow: Tell us where the figures come from.
Mr. Davies: From Colonel Verdin, who is the Chairman of the Agricultural Executive Committee in Cheshire.
Mr. W. M. F. Vane: Will the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) say exactly what figures he is averaging? On hill farms the average rent is that number of shillings per acre or less. Even for the best agricultural land the average is less than the figure which he has given. I should have thought that throughout the mixed farming areas of the country the rent would be £2 per acre, and often a great deal less. Will he explain himself a little more? Although the figure which he has given

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may be admirable for the auction mart tomorrow, it is extremely misleading, being a long way from the truth.
6.27 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Howard (St. Ives): I was very pleased to hear the Minister mention the horticultural industry and its difficulties. There is no doubt that horticulturists, who are valuable food producers, have many difficulties at the moment. I beg the Government to keep a special watch on the tariff position. I think it is not generally realised that during the time of the last Government tariff changes were introduced and it has been said that we must have time to watch the situation. However, I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider favourably any application for a tariff change which comes to him, and that there will be no chance of any further bindings being accepted in respect of horticultural articles without very careful thought.
It is not clear how Article VI of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which relates to anti-dumping, can be enforced. The difficulty arises out of the words:
"The Organisation shall waive the requirements of sub-paragraph (a) of this paragraph, so as to permit the levying of a countervailing duty, in cases in which they find that a subsidy is causing or threatening material injury to an industry in the territory of another contracting party exporting the product concerned to the territory of the importing contracting party."
This is a most difficult problem to tackle, but I hope we can have an assurance that the matter will be very carefully watched.
I do not think any good horticulturist, certainly in west Cornwall, would wish to have inferior quality produce bolstered up, but it must be remembered that the good quality produce of these growers has to compete with certain factors from abroad and that these create serious problems. First, although wage scales abroad and here may not be so dissimilar, the standard of living in, say, Italy or France is very different from that in this country where, I am glad to say, it is very much higher. That is an important point.
Another matter which is very important to west Cornwall is the item of transport costs. It seems to me that if the road transport services are to be renationalised it will do nothing to bring costs down
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because there will be little or no competition between the railways and the road services. I hope that when the Government are returned my right hon. Friend will use his influence with the Minister of Transport to persuade the licensing authorities that A licences should be granted as freely as possible so as to ensure as much reasonable competition as we can have in transport over long distances.
It is not only freight charges, but non-delivery or late delivery and damage in transport which are such serious problems. The other day a grower in west Cornwall showed me a roneoed form which he and others used to complain of delay or damage to their produce in transit and which they sent to their local station masters direct. The problem must be serious for that to have to be done.
I hope that the Government will also consider petrol tax concession for small petrol-driven agricultural tractors. I know that this has been mentioned before, but the small growers think that such a scheme could be worked, and there are many people who feel that it would be of very great benefit to them. It is also essential that the report of the inquiry into horticultural marketing should be published as soon as possible. I understand that there have already been one or two meetings, and I hope that the inquiry will go into all the complex problems such as Covent Garden, which those of us who know anything about it realise is extremely difficult. It is all very well to say that Covent Garden is out of date; most of us who have been on the local authority concerned for many years know that it is. It is a question of finding another suitable site as against the needs of housing and rebuilding which are so important in great cities like London.
I hope that the inquiry will be as all-embracing as possible and will put into true perspective the positions of the middleman, about whom much has been said, the costing of transport and so on. Most important of all, I hope that the Government will give us an assurance that they will act as quickly as possible upon any of the reasonably practical suggestions that are put forward.
It is probably not realised by the growers the help given by the

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Government in the increased production grants, such as the ploughing-up grant, the lime subsidy, the fertiliser subsidy, and so on. I should like to ask my right hon. Friend if potash could be included among these fertilisers, because that inclusion would be very useful to the horticulturists. All of us realise the importance of good fresh vegetables and horticultural produce in this country. I am quite sure, whatever way we may go about it, that the one thing we want to do is to give the greatest possible confidence to the men and women in this very difficult and complex section of agriculture.
6.35 p.m.
Mr. Clifford Kenyon: I have very little to say on agriculture today, because I said most of what I wanted to say about a month ago when we had another debate on agriculture. I hope that I shall not now repeat myself. There are some things I want to say because of the political trend of the debate. There have been boasts from both sides about who will come back after the Election. There is a verse in the Old Testament which it is useful to keep in mind.
"Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off."
If both sides kept that verse in mind they perhaps would cease boasting about who will get back and cease making forecasts for agriculture. It is most unfortunate to make forecasts in agriculture because there are so many circumstances to upset them.
To touch on a political point, I have been looking at the promises of the various parties at the last Election. I am beginning to wonder whether farmers were deceived or not. The system which was in operation at the last Election was a system of guaranteed prices and markets, as set out in the Agriculture Act, 1947. I found that the parties at the last Election promised the farmers to continue that system. In the Conservative Agricultural Charter, 1948, the Conservatives said that they would give the British farmers real confidence in the future by guaranteeing prices and markets for all the food they could produce.
The party manifesto issued at the Election read:
"We shall maintain our system of guaranteed agricultural prices and markets."
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That was the system in operation when that promise was given, and it was the system that was carried out by the Labour Government. In their manifesto the Conservatives promised to continue that same system. I looked up my opponent's Election address and found that he promised:
"We shall continue the system of guaranteed markets and prices."
That was the system then in operation, the system which the Labour Government had operated up to that time.
A definite promise was given by all three parties that that system would be continued. The Liberal Party said:
"The system of guaranteed prices and markets is essential."
On this issue each of the three parties made the same promise to the agricultural community. I looked up the National Liberal manifesto and found that agriculture was not even mentioned, so we do not get much benefit from that. If the three parties all promised the same thing at the last Election, why have the Government deviated from their promise? The system now in operation, the system of deficiency payments and minimum price guarantees, is not what was promised. It is something entirely different.
If it is different, in whose interests was the difference made? Was it made in the interests of the farmers? Was it made in the interests of the Treasury? I think it was made in the interests of the latter. In changing this method of price guarantees for the farmer, the Government have departed from the definite promise they gave to the agricultural community at the last Election.
I leave that political point and deal more with agriculture itself. When last I spoke I dealt at some length with pig production, and I do not propose to discuss that now except to make one suggestion. We have a tremendous number of breeds of pig, some of which have no more relation to bacon than has a cow. They are purely and simply pork pigs. We consider that the best breed of pig—and here I shall get into trouble—for bacon is the Large White.
What is required is for the agricultural community to make up its mind which shall be the bacon pig and to stick to that breed for bacon production. I am not a pig farmer, but I know that it is

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said that the Landrace is a better breed of pig for bacon than any we have in this country. That is why we have been importing Landrace pigs. If the Landrace is a better pig, I suggest to the Ministry that it should make a purchase of Land-race boars and establish breeding centres so that that breed can become established here.
The cost of the Landrace pig is so heavy that few farmers can afford it, but if the Ministry established breeding centres so that that breed could be established here and we could have a proper bacon pig, that would give us a far better opportunity to compete with the producers of Danish bacon. It is up to the pig breeders and the Ministry to decide which shall be the bacon pig for this country.
I should also like to mention the curing of the bacon. Far too much bacon is too salty; so much so that sometimes one imagines one is eating salt. It is time that the curers found out what the people want. The British public likes Danish-cured bacon. It may be that the people have had it for so long that they have acquired the taste, but certainly they like it. It is up to the curers of our bacon to get the measure of the likes of the people and to cure bacon to the public taste. That can be done and then British bacon will, so far as taste is concerned, take the place of Danish bacon.
These two principles are essential; first the breed of pig, and then curing to the taste of the people. One can go into different shops or into the same shop week after week and buy bacon with a different taste each time. That is a feature which tells against the sale of British bacon. If people knew that they could buy bacon cured in the same way and having the same taste, I am sure that the British farmer who produced that bacon would be able to hold his own against any competition from abroad. What is the good of the British farmer producing the best bacon pig on the market if the bacon is ruined by bad curing?
The stability which came to the meat market when the Government withdrew control and went over to a free market was due to the efficient working of the National Farmers' Union Meat Marketing Corporation. The stability which that
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Corporation brought into the markets was astonishing. If the farmers themselves would support the Corporation more than they do, the stability would be even greater and confidence would be stronger than it is today. The Government cannot lay claim to responsibility for that stability. If there had been no Corporation the market would have been in absolute chaos. We should have been in the hands of the butchers. When that Corporation came into operation and we knew that we could put our stock into its hands and receive a fair price for quality, that gave confidence to the farmer and stability to the market.
I wish to ask a question about a matter causing concern in Lancashire, which is a big poultry-producing county. A statement has been made—I have not seen it stated officially, but I have seen it in a number of newspapers and it is quoted as being official—that the Government are to permit the import of 250,000 dollars worth of poultry meat from America. I should like to know whether or not that is correct. The meat is what is known as broiler meat. That is a horrible word which does not mean "boiler," though it sounds like it.
We have a surplus of poultry meat at home. If we continue to produce at the same rate we shall drug the market just as pigs are drugging the pig market. In Lancashire we feel that it is a serious matter to allow the importation of poultry meat from America when we hear so much about the scarcity of dollars. Moreover, this raises once again the danger of the spread of fowl pest. Fowl pest is endemic in America. If poultry from America is brought here and spread throughout the country, there is little hope of us getting rid of fowl pest. We have already had trouble caused by it being imported from other countries. If it is to be imported in meat from America the position will be serious. I should like to know whether or not this is a rumour.
Mr. Amory: I can answer the hon. Gentleman straight away. It is true that a limited quantity of cooked poultry is being allowed in from the United States; but the meat is cooked and I assure him that there is no risk whatever. The Government would not have allowed the import if it had been thought that there was the slightest risk. There is no risk whatever of fowl pest.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: How much is being imported and what is the value?
Mr. Amory: I will find out the answer to that before my hon. Friend replies to the debate, and whether the figure mentioned is correct. But it is a limited quantity, and it is only permission to import up to that figure.
Mr. Kenyon: I am glad of that assurance from the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope that fowl pest will not extend further. We have had quite enough of it in Lancashire.
I wish to support what was said by the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Bullard) about smallholdings. There should be some method by which a small farmer can increase his farming activities, but we should be very careful about encouraging people to take smallholdings. The two main sources of income for the smallholder are pig and poultry production, neither of which offers a certain market at present. A smallholder engaged in pig and poultry production can lose the whole of his capital in a very short time. All smallholdings should be large enough to enable the smallholder to extend his activities beyond those two things. He should be able to go in for cattle and, if possible, for sheep. The size of smallholdings should, in my opinion, be larger than is usual under county council schemes.
If we are to have an extension of agricultural production in this country, the agricultural community must have cheaper credit. I have stressed that point before, and I do so again. Agricultural commodities will not keep. Unlike manufactured articles which, if the market be not right, may be held up, agricultural commodities must be marketed when they are ready. For instance, when fatstock has reached a certain condition it must be sold, otherwise the animals will continue to consume and their condition will deteriorate.
It is essential, therefore, that the farming community shall have cheap money to enable it to risk putting a commodity on the market when it is ready. The agricultural community also must have command of working capital at all times and at a cheaper rate. Whatever may be the complexion of the Government when this House reassembles, I
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hope that the agricultural community will continue to take its rightful place in the economy of the nation.
6.54 p.m.
Colonel Sir Ralph Clarke: I entirely agree with most of what was said by the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) particularly with regard to pigs and the Fatstock Marketing Corporation, and smallholdings. People should consider carefully before they take a smallholding and should regard it generally only as a step towards something greater.
I disagree, however, with the statement of the hon. Member that the Conservative Party made promises at the last Election about guaranteed prices and assured markets which it has not kept. To the best of my recollection any promises made were that it would conform to the provisions of the 1947 Act. I believe that that has been done, but I will refer to the matter again later in my speech.
The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) also said something with which I cannot agree. He said that the Conservative Party never had an agricultural policy.
Mr. T. Williams: It never has.
Sir R. Clarke: I do not know how far back the right hon. Gentleman was going in making that statement, but he should remember that the Conservative Party was out of office for 16 years before coming into power and forming the policy upon which it is acting now. A Government, predominantly Conservative, in which the right hon. Gentleman played a very honourable part produced an enormous change in British agriculture during the war. Between 1932 and the beginning of the war a Government, also predominantly Conservative, raised agricultural production by 25 per cent.
We are sometimes a little too critical about some things which have happened and which did not go too well during the changeover from the old and more fixed methods of marketing to the present methods, and we tend to forget what a tremendous operation that changeover proved to be. If a few more oats were brought from abroad than was necessary, that was better than that we should risk a food shortage. If people were encouraged to produce more pigs than was necessary,

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that was better than risking a lack of meat at a time when things were in a transitional stage.
Unfortunately the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) has left the Chamber. I wish to take up one thing which he said—that he did not believe that under private enterprise the electricity industry could have provided connections to the farms, as has been done by the British Electricity Authority. I would ask the hon. Member to recall that just before the industry was nationalised, the National Farmers' Union and the then electricity undertakings had a five-year agreement for supplying practically all the farms then without a supply of electricity. I believe that could have been done quite as quickly as, if not more quickly than, the B.E.A. has been doing it.
Mr. T. Williams: But they never did it.
Sir R. Clarke: They never had the chance, they were nationalised.
Mr. Williams: They had the chance from the day they obtained Parliamentary power; in every region, North, South, East and West. But they just did not do it.
Sir R. Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that the business agreement was drawn up only in the year before nationalisation.
The question of rents raised by the hon. Member for Leek was answered by my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland (Mr. Vane). The level of British farm rents quoted was grossly exaggerated, and to clarify the picture I would say that whatever are the rents it is a fact that more than one-third of the capital in British agriculture, that is, fixed capital belonging to the landowners, is lent on terms that produce, at the most 2 per cent. for the owner, and in many cases nothing at all. It is obtained extraordinarily cheaply.
I am fully in agreement with the agricultural policy with which the Government are going to the country. I consider—and here I repeat what I have said before—that it is both in the spirit and within the letter of Part I of the 1947 Act. I went carefully through the Act recently to assure myself that that is so.
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Secondly, I think that it is the nearest approach to the long-term policy, for which people keep asking in a vague sort of way, that we are ever likely to obtain, because anything that is long-term must be made to last. Unless it is fairly elastic, it will not last. It must be flexible and based more on principles and policies than on hard and fast provisions of what is to be done.
I believe that the policy of this Government for the last year, and the policy on which they are going to the country, is the only possible long-term policy. It is the only policy that will meet the needs of the day. Our overall need is to cherish and develop our agriculture in a country that is perforce predominantly industrial and dependent on its exports. This has also to be done at the same time as we are trying to avoid any return to State trading or rationing. We also want to minimise, as far as possible, control by Whitehall over our agriculture.
I am convinced that one of the principal causes of the failure of Russian agriculture has been the fact that its control has been too centralised. I formed that opinion when I was there for a short time in the autumn, and, from what I have since heard, I am convinced that that is so. Neither from Moscow nor Whitehall can one control the day-to-day operations of farmers.
At the same time, we must have a policy that will give the consumer a free choice. In that connection, I was delighted to hear the Minister use the expression that the consumer is once again in charge. It reminded me of the old business phrase, "The customer is always right." Any businessman knows that unless he acts on that principle, he will never get very far. The Government's policy has an additional advantage. It allows of improvement by competition, whereas, I believe, the policy advocated by the party opposite of fixed prices for everything produced would result in practically no competition at all.
In passing, I wish to make one small exception to what I have said. I am not quite certain that our present policy is as applicable to Ulster as it is to us. It is sometimes forgotten that whereas we in this country are predominantly industrial and live on our industrial exports,

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Ulster is an agricultural exporting country. I believe that some of the difficulties which Ulster experiences in working with us under our schemes arises from a failure to recognise that fact.
One last observation on the Government's agricultural policy. To find such a policy is no new problem. We have been searching for it ever since the days of the Corn Laws at the beginning of the last century. We have never really found until today a plan flexible enough to meet the difficulties. I asked the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) what the Socialist Party did for agriculture in the 1930s. In reply, the hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned the Marketing Acts. I give the Labour Government full credit for introducing those Measures, even though they never really did anything with them.
Mr. T. Williams: They went out of power.
Sir R. Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman says that because the Labour Government went out of power they therefore could not do anything about them. I would point out that, with the exception of the Sugar Beet Industry Bill in 1925, the Labour Party certainly did not vote for any of the later Marketing Acts and, in fact, divided against them in nearly every case. We did not vote against the 1947 Act.
Mr. Williams: The party opposite voted against the Marketing Bill.
Sir R. Clarke: We voted against it because it had no teeth. It was no use until some control of imports was introduced.
Whichever party may be returned to power, I think that we are all agreed in our wish to do what we can for agriculture. The farmers most likely to be in need are what I might term the medium farmers. I mean the type of farmers who work on their farm themselves and who employ, say, two men. Such farmers are likely to have more difficulty than the others. The big man and the family farm are all right, I believe.
I wish to make one or two suggestions which I think might help these smaller farmers. They are not suggestions which would require much money, though they might mean some slight redirection of
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money at present being spent by way of production grants. The first concerns the advisory services. I should be the first to pay tribute to all that those services have done in the matter of research and the accumulation of knowledge, but I am not so sure that they are really getting that knowledge disseminated as quickly and as thoroughly as I could wish.
I know the difficulties. There is the time factor. The farmer has no time to go to the agricultural school or to read books, and so on. On the other hand, the advisers have a great many farms to visit. I know the grip which traditional methods have on farmers, but I feel that more might well be done, and I should like to see county agricultural executive committees, in addition to their usual methods of imparting knowledge, try something new.
I should like to see those committees take over the tenancy or the ownership—preferably the tenancy—of typical farms in various parts of the country. The farms should not be too good nor too bad, and certainly not farms under supervision or anything of that sort. The kind of farm I have in mind is that of the older man who has been farming all his life by rather old-fashioned methods, whose son, perhaps, has grown up and left him, who is getting a little crochety, and whose men do not stay with him long—the type of farm that is gradually going down.
I should like to see the county agricultural committees run such farms, using the most modern techniques and practice that are well within the economic scope of the ordinary farmer. They should not use very expensive machinery or methods, but only those which the ordinary farmer can afford. If they were then prepared to explain what they were doing to people who came round, and so made all the accounts available for inspection, it would be very much more impressive than much of the advice which is being given at present. Farmers would learn more quickly and the county agricultural executive committees might also learn quite a lot.
Mr. Ede: What would be happening to the tenant while they were carrying on like this?
Sir R. Clarke: I was presuming that the farmer had given up. In many cases, if an older farmer were offered a house he would be quite ready to retire. Many of them hang on because they cannot find anywhere else to live. If the county agricultural executive committees offered them houses I think that they would be quite prepared to give up the leases of their farms and retire.
Mr. Ede: What would they live on?
Sir R. Clarke: When he went out the farmer would receive a certain amount of money for the value of his holding. I am assuming that he is not a bankrupt. He could invest that money or buy an annuity. What do all old farmers live on?
Mr. Ede: I could tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: National Assistance.
Sir R. Clarke: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman's objection would be an insuperable obstacle.
My next point concerns the veterinary service. Here again wonderful advances have been made but I wonder if we are travelling upon the right lines. The practical application, too, is very good. Wonderful cures of sick animals are achieved; many diseases are now avoided by inoculation and money is thereby saved. The small farmer cannot afford to have sick animals. One cow with mastitis, which causes it to lose its milk, is a very great hardship to a small farmer. I wonder, however, whether our veterinary service is concentrating to a sufficient extent upon trying to raise the general level of animal health, especially what I will call the constitution of animals.
It is very much better to produce an animal which does not become ill than to cure it. I may be a pessimist, but I have a feeling that when we inoculate against one disease we find that a fresh disease develops. Incidentally, curing animals which are sick is quite contrary to nature's plan for the survival of the fittest.
Again, the number of lactations which we get from most of our dairy cows is a disgrace. We should get many more, and that would be a tremendous economy to the small farmer. If our veterinary
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service would concentrate upon improving the constitution of our stock, I believe we should derive great benefit.
Lastly, I suggest that far too many small farms have too much money locked up in machines which are used only part-time. It would be far better if the farmers invested that money in animals. Waste of machinery could be avoided by the encouragement of contracting—not only by individual farmers doing a little contracting work besides running their own farms but by small co-operative groups of farmers and even by firms doing contracting business. Great economies could be achieved in that way. I leave the Minister with those suggestions. I hope that it will be agreed that they are ones which could be adopted by any party, whatever the result of the Election.
7.14 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton: The pleasure of following the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Sir R. Clarke) is one which I have not hitherto enjoyed. It is true that he has done his best to defend the present Government's agricultural policy and to exculpate them from some of the electoral misfortunes that may lie ahead, but I very much doubt whether his defence will lash the farming community into a white heat of enthusiasm for the present Government when it is called upon to exercise its vote on 26th May.
Previous speakers have referred to the number of bankruptcies which have occurred in the agricultural community during the past few years. I recently put down a Question to the Parliamentary Secretary on this subject, and he quoted figures showing that the number of bankruptcies in 1951 was 101 and, in 1954, had risen to 121. On that occasion he assured the House that those figures were obtained by him from the President of the Board of Trade. It seems to me that there may possibly be some inaccuracy in those figures, because figures which I have obtained from an alternative and reliable source produce a different picture.
Sir R. Clarke: I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman of what everybody knows, namely, that it takes a farmer longer to go bankrupt than anybody else, owing to the nature of his

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business—and it is quite likely that some of these bankruptcies are a sort of delayed action from the activities of the previous Government.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: That is a new doctrine which I have not heard advanced before. It is of so original a character that I hope the hon. and gallant Member will excuse me if I say that I should like a little more time to consider it. I should not like to hazard an opinion at the moment. All I would say is that in Kemp's "Mercantile Gazette"—a well-known publication which specialises in such matters—the statistics show that the number of bankruptcies in England and Wales—and these bankruptcies apply to farmers, market gardeners and smallholders—went up from 93 in 1951 to 140 in 1954. Those figures differ fairly substantially from the figures which the Parliamentary Secretary gave to the House upon the basis of information supplied to him by the President of the Board of Trade.
A similar increase is evident in the number of deeds of arrangement, which went up from 18 in 1951 to 38 in 1954. Those figures indicate one of two things—either that British agriculturists have for some reason become much less efficient during the past three or four years, or that, for a variety of reasons, they are finding it more difficult to carry on their business under the present Administration than was the case before.
Reference has been made to the problems of pig producers. It is quite true that in the last Price Review the Government made a present of a total increase of £28 million to the farming community. I suggest that that was due partly to the fact that the Government knew at the time that this was likely to be an Election year, and they therefore felt obliged to make some contribution towards British agriculture. I remember how the Chancellor of the Exchequer was brought along to provide further assurances to the annual conference of the National Farmers' Union. He made very brave and gallant undertakings to the National Farmers' Union on that occasion. On the strength of those undertakings a motion of censure on the present Administration, which would have been moved and carried at the conference of the National Farmers' Union, was withdrawn.
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While it is true that £28 million more was given to the farming community in the last Price Review, it did not apply to all sections of British agriculture, the chief exception, of course, being that of pig production, which has suffered substantial reductions in prices. At the same time, pig keepers will have to pay more for their feeding stuffs than before.
Previous speakers have mentioned the profits obtained by the British milling industry. As a result of the increased prices of feeding stuffs there has been a steady increase for some considerable time now. That has been accompanied by an equally steady and even more substantial increase in the profits of the two or three very large undertakings that engage in the business of supplying feeding stuffs.
It is quite true that the future of the pig breeder and producer in this country is somewhat bleak. For far too long we have been producing far too many kinds of pig. My hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon), who is not a pig producer—he is far too wise for that—drew attention to the need for us once and for all to make up our minds what breed of pig will be the best pig to produce in this country for bacon. If we consulted the bacon factories, I think we should find a surprising unanimity of opinion on the subject of which is the best pig.
Vast sums of money have been spent on the Landrace, but there is no evidence so far to indicate that the Land-race is the answer to the problem of bacon production in this country. Very fancy prices have been paid, quite beyond the reach of the average farmer, and until and unless the Government, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley, are willing to engage on the long and somewhat expensive experiment that will be necessary, many pig producers will remain unconvinced that the Land-race is the answer. It may be that in the Scandinavian countries the Landrace has been a success. That does not mean that the Landrace will necessarily be a success in this country.
We have to cut out all these unnecessary breeds of pig which, for a variety of reasons, pig producers and pig associations are encouraging, and concentrate on the kind of pig we want. For this reason, of course, progeny testing, I know, is to

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be embarked on to an increasing extent, but we should have done that a long time ago. It is no use complaining about the competition of Danish bacon producers, who concentrate on one breed of pig, while at the same time we are playing around with all these different varieties of pig in this country.
Reference has been made to the fact that the housewife buys a different kind of bacon every week. That is partially explained by the fact that we have all these different breeds of pig. It is not too difficult to understand that with different breeds of pig the same kind of curing methods will not necessarily produce exactly the same result. That is another reason why if we want a stabilised product, palatable to the taste of the British consumer, we have to concentrate on one breed of pig which is likely to produce that result most economically.
It is quite true that the Fatstock Marketing Corporation has yielded a most valuable service to the fatstock producers. It has certainly got the Government out of very serious difficulties with which they would otherwise have been faced, if the National Farmers' Union had not created the Fatstock Marketing Corporation. Statistics show that the percentage of Grade A pigs being handled through the Fatstock Marketing Corporation is steadily increasing, but the one thing that we are not quite sure about is this.
A Grade A pig goes along to the bacon factory and is cured for bacon. Grade B and Grade C pigs also go along to the bacon factory and may be cured for bacon. The bacon leaves the bacon factory and passes to the wholesaler and, through the wholesaler, to the retailer. By the time it gets to the counter of the ordinary retail shop it is quite impossible to identify. It is impossible to say whether the bacon being sold in the shop has come from a Grade A pig or a Grade B pig or a Grade C pig, which means that the British housewife is probably, in a very large number of cases, paying the Grade A price for a Grade C product.
Someone is getting some money out of that to which he is not entitled. It is not beyond the wit of those concerned to mark the carcase in such a way as
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to ensure that the housewife buying the bacon in the ordinary retail shop will be able to identify the bacon without any difficulty, and be able to know whether it comes from a Grade A or a lower grade of pig. That would do something to obviate the bad name which British bacon has in some quarters. We have to remember that, so far as Danish bacon is concerned, we see only the Grade A type on the counters of the British shops. In the case of British bacon, heaven knows how many grades find their way to the shop counters. There is no distinction of price, and the housewife may buy an inferior quality product in the belief that she is really getting a cut from a Grade A pig.
It is quite clear—and I think in this respect hon. Members on both sides of the House find themselves in agreement—that there is not much future for a smallholder whose smallholding is so small that he must concentrate on pigs and poultry exclusively. It is most unfortunate that the future for pigs and poultry taken by themselves is not very bright. I do not think that the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary will say that the present time is a propitious one for anyone wishing to manage a smallholding and relying solely upon pigs and poultry.
We have heard over and over again the argument that it is only the farmer who is prepared, perhaps, to lose a bit on his pigs and poultry, prepared not to get so much profit out of that side of his business, who can continue pig and poultry production, because he has other things which will bring him in money. That, of course, cannot be regarded as satisfactory.
The Minister of Agriculture tells the House and the British farming community that too many pigs have been produced. What he does not say is how many pigs he wants the agricultural industry to produce. He never tells us that. He shakes his head when that point is put to him. So how is the wretched pig producer to decide on a question of policy of that kind when the Minister himself is not prepared to give a lead? He is prepared to give a lead in almost every other aspect of agricultural policy, but not on that aspect.
Mr. Amory: I was shaking my head because I am not willing to say precisely what output, in terms of quantity and numbers, we need of any single product.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: The Minister says that we want more of this and that, and he boasts about increases of production if the figures suit him. It is no good his talking like that to the small pig or poultry producer. He wants to know whether it will be worth while to sink his little bit of capital in the production of pigs and poultry. If he sees that the Government are following a deterrent policy, the conclusion he will come to is that this is no proposition from his point of view, and therefore he will not go in for it. The result will be that in the not-too-distant future we shall have a Minister of Agriculture in some future Government announcing new terms for the purpose of persuading pig producers to produce more pigs because the level of production has fallen to a deplorably low level.
I proceed from the question of pig production to another result of the Price Review to which little or no reference has been made. I do not believe that the majority of farmers realise that they will receive less for their wheat and rye in 1956 than they will in 1955. My argument arises in this way. The price for the 1955 crop of wheat was fixed in 1954 at an average price of 29s. 9d. per cwt. This price remains unchanged for 1956. In the meantime, however, there has been an increase of 3d. per cwt. in the Special Review for the 1955 crop owing to increased wages. The same consideration applies to rye, for which the price of 23s. was fixed in the 1954 Price Review and rose to 23s. 3d. in the Special Review because of the increased wages and reverts to 23s. for the 1956 crop.
I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to say—because it will be a matter of considerable interest to farmers and may persuade many of them to grow more wheat and rye—whether or not the farmer is to get less for his wheat and rye in 1956 than in 1955. If it so happens that the price of wheat and rye in 1956 is to be less than it is in 1955, the farming community generally will regard the Government as having been guilty of a little sharp practice and guilty of misleading the farming community.
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Reference has also been made to the plight of horticulture. There again the future cannot be regarded as rosy. I drew attention, in the course of an intervention, to the fact that the consumption of fresh vegetables in this country, despite the increase in population, is for some reason going down. According to the Economic Survey, 1955, the average consumption in terms per head for 1954 is estimated at 117·8 lb. The average consumption in 1951 was 130 lb. The point that I want to make is that if consumption of fresh vegetables has gone down by 13 lb. per head between 1951 and 1954, do the Government expect British horticulturists to go in for more vegetable production?
I should like to know what information the Government have to explain the reasons for this fall in consumption and what advice the Government are giving to British vegetable growers in these circumstances. The Minister of Agriculture admitted in the course of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley that permission had been given for the import of cooked poultry from the U.S.A. The Parliamentary Secretary will, I hope, give us some information as to the quantity and the value of this rather inexplicable import, costing dollars, to supply a need which I should have thought could have been more easily met by British producers.
Again, the Economic Survey, 1955, provides some interesting statistics, because the figures on page 22 show that the average consumption per head of poultry, game and fish has gone down from 30 lb. in 1951 to 25 lb. in 1954. I do not know how the fall is allocated between poultry, game and fish, but if the consumption of poultry in this country is going down I should like to know from the Government the reasons for that fall and what advice the Government are proposing to give to poultry and game producers.
If the present trend continues, I do not think that the farming community can view the future with any degree of equanimity. There are many other points to which I should like to refer, but time does not permit. The one fact that stands out at the moment is that there has been developing during the past three or four years a growing lack of confidence in the Government on the part of the farming community. I do not think there can be

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any doubt about that. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) will be able to produce conclusive evidence to that effect.
In any event, we shall not have to wait too long before knowing whether there is a growing lack of confidence or not, because I am quite sure that the present Government will be in for a shock when some of the results in the agricultural areas are announced on or after 26th May.
7.40 p.m.
Mr. Robert Crouch: Today we have had a very pleasant debate, as we usually do when discussing the question of agriculture. The hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) has brought a little party political flavour into the debate. I think he will be surprised to see the support which this party will get in the rural areas in the General Election.
I should like to congratulate the Minister on what he has told the House about the state of our industry and its prospects. I congratulate him on the way in which he has told us of the advance and the increase in production that have taken place during the last four years. Had there not been a change in administration four years ago, I feel quite sure that the amount of home-produced food would be considerably less than it is today.
I am very sorry that the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) is not present. I listened with great interest to his speech, but I felt that as he gets older the more innocent he tries to be. He reminded me of the "girl" of 35 who was taken out by a lad of 20 and tried to convince him that this was the first time in her life that she had been taken out by a young man. The right hon. Gentleman was definitely trying to do that sort of thing in part of his speech.
I was particularly surprised to hear him say that the Labour Party were the original fathers of the 1947 Act. At home I have a copy of a White Paper, which was produced about the end of 1944 or the beginning of 1945. Lord Woolton was then Minister of Reconstruction, and a Committee was set up comprising hon. Members from both sides of the House, and representatives of the Agricultural Workers' Union, the Country Landowners' Association and the
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National Fanners' Union. As a result of the document which that Committee produced the 1947 Act came along. It is very interesting now to compare that document—produced while the war was still going on—with the Bill which became the 1947 Act.
Mention has been made, I believe by the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon), of guaranteed prices. The hon. Member tried to suggest that they were introduced by the first Socialist Government, but we know full well that guaranteed fixed prices for farm products were introduced at the commencement of the war.
I think the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) should clear up the statement he made that rents in Great Britain are £7 per acre. I know that Dorset is the most beautiful and, I think, one of the most productive counties, but it is a very average county in this respect—we have rich land and poor land. The average rent in Dorset is about 40s. an acre. If it went out from this House that the average rent of land in the country is £7 per acre it would do more harm than good.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In fairness to my hon. Friend the Member for Leek, it should be pointed out that he was quoting a statement made by the Chairman of the Cheshire Agricultural Executive Committee.
Mr. Crouch: That may be, but I think the hon. Member would have been wiser to check the figure. Had he known as much about the soil as I do, he would have known that there was something wrong about that. Only a few odd acres let at such a price. If my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) had been here—a man of very great experience in the matter of rents—I am quite sure he would immediately have challenged the statement.
We have heard today something about a new policy of the Labour Party for agriculture under which the farmers are to be given fixed prices instead of guaranteed prices. That would be a costly process because, with fixed prices, one takes the product, whatever its quality, and someone has to pay for the losses sustained. To my mind, the most serious thing about fixed prices is that we should immediately begin to lose quality. As a

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result of the policy of the present Government in giving greater freedom to producers we are seeing quality returning to the shops. The housewife certainly likes to get a higher quality of food—milk, vegetables, or meat, be it what it may, she likes quality. If hon. Members opposite were successful in a few weeks' time their policy would do nothing but reduce the quality of our farm produce as we know it today.
I mentioned the great progress made since we have been in office. There has been the reintroduction of the fertiliser subsidy, the calf subsidy and the ploughing-up subsidy. The previous Government allowed those to lapse. The Minister has given the figures for the increase in the amount of output from our farms. Another thing which perhaps some hon. Members have overlooked is the amount of new buildings which have gone up in the last four years and the amount of new machinery brought on to the farms, all of which makes for greater efficiency in the industry.
I was very pleased to note in the document on which this debate is founded the increased amount of money which is being spent on research on the production of pigs and poultry. I believe that in that lies the future prosperity of our industry and the possibility of having better and healthier animals. The testing stations being set up will definitely mean money well spent. Unfortunately, it will take some considerable time before we begin to notice and appreciate the results of the work going on in those stations.
I was disturbed to see that the estimated fertiliser subsidy this year will not be quite so great as last year. I am a little worried about that because I believe the finest investment that the farmer can make today is to use more fertiliser on his soil. There is no doubt about that. If only we could get all producers to use the average amount used by the best producers we could easily double the amount of food we are getting today. Far too many people still have the silly idea that the putting of fertiliser on the land and growing bigger crops is robbing the soil. It is nothing of the sort; doing that feeds the soil.
We have some very rich soils near our great towns and cities. That is because
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they have been fed throughout the centuries by the waste produced from those towns and by the manure produced by animals. Producers today should have a different idea about the use of fertilisers. They give the soil and the plant food, and the more food the plant receives—in the right proportions—the greater will be the crop produced.
A great deal of time has been devoted in the debate to the question of pigs. I should like to touch on that subject. This is a very important question. We should increase our pig production instead of allowing it to remain static. But there are certain difficulties. I know that the Minister is very keen on increasing pig production and is doing what he can to further it. One of the biggest problems that we have to solve is that of virus pneumonia amongst pigs. If the scientists can give us the answer to that problem, we shall be able to produce our pigmeat cheaper than we are today.
Mention has been made of the fact that people do not eat so much pork in the summer months. We all know that fresh pork is one of the most difficult types of meat to keep in hot weather, and that it "goes off" quicker than any other sort of meat. Our ancestors would not eat pork during the summer. But what about using refrigeration? Today the butcher keeps his pork in the refrigerator, and the public can do likewise. There is not the danger of pork going bad that there was before the war.
We should take much more care about the grading of our pigs, and we should also develop an export market for fat pigs. When I was in Germany last year I found that the German housewife loves fat bacon as much as the English housewife dislikes it. We should produce more pigs and export our fat bacon to Germany, leaving the good lean bacon for the British housewife. We consume about 10,000 tons of bacon a week. I believe that only 4,000 tons of that amount is home produced. I should like that to be increased to 5,000 tons, and I should also like 1,000 tons of our fat bacon to be exported to the Continent of Europe.
Hon. Members opposite have referred to the cost of feedingstuffs. I know that the cost is high, and we should turn our

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attention to using more wheat in our feedingstuffs in view of the surpluses of wheat in the United States, Canada and Australia. In those great wheat exporting countries wheat is the cheapest grain they have to sell.
I regret that no mention has been made of what I consider to be the most useful animal on any farm, the sheep. The number of them has increased during the last three or four years, but I feel that farmers would be well advised to increase the number still more. We have ample room for them on our new leys and pastures. The price paid today for mutton compares very favourably indeed with that paid for other types of meat.
No mention has been made of the extent to which the output per man in the farming industry has increased during the last 10 or 15 years. The number of hours worked has been reduced, but more has been produced per hour. I believe that that is due to the efficiency of the farmer in procuring new machinery and to the keenness of the farm worker. The farm worker is an example to the rest of the country. If an opportunity arises of using some new form of machine, he is only too ready to use it, and in fact is very proud to do so.
I wish to conclude by reminding the House that the prosperity of this nation depends upon the prosperity of the countryside. We are an industrial nation, and yet I feel that for too long the nearest market that the industrialists have had is completely neglected. This applies to all sections of industrialists, from the men in the workshop to those at the top. They think of the market a thousand miles from home. I suggest that they think of the agricultural market. The more farm produce we can sell the more we can produce, and the more we can produce the more economically we can produce. This would be to the advantage not only of the farming industry but of every man and woman in this island.
7.55 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Peart: The hon. Member for Dorset, North (Mr. Crouch) said that the prosperity of our country depends upon the prosperity of the countryside, and I agree with him. What happens in the countryside affects what happens in the towns and the industrial areas, and it is essential to have a right balance.
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I can remember the time when my constituents were demanding the produce from our farms but because of the economic policy which was pursued at that time they were unable to purchase the produce from our own countryside. Yet our farmers were leaving the land and good land was going out of cultivation. I agree that it would be very wrong if we ever returned to that situation.
Therefore, each one of us must think in terms of an economy which provides not only a thriving agricultural industry but one which is complementary to developing productivity elsewhere. I have always held the view that it is wrong to argue the case of the countryside against the town, and vice versa. In our island economy it is essential that we should strike a correct balance, and we should appreciate that if there is a crisis in our agricultural industry it affects industry elsewhere, and vice versa. There I agree with the hon. Member for Dorset, North.
I am afraid, however, that I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's strictures. He seemed to be apologetic about his party's approach to the Agriculture Act, 1947. Indeed, he seemed to wish that he could somehow or other give his party credit for that Act. He tried to produce some obscure evidence to show that the Tories believe in planning and believe also in the 1947 Act.
Mr. Crouch: I can produce the document to which I referred. It was published as a White Paper, and I will bring it and show it to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Peart: I am glad that the hon. Member can produce his document. In 1945, and until the time when that Act went through this House, I listened to every agricultural debate, and I remember the attitude of hon. Members opposite to that Act. Indeed, on Part I we divided in Committee upstairs. Time and again hon. Members opposite opposed that Measure. They said that it would provide only a false security for farming industry. I can, if necessary, quote speech after speech from hon. Members opposite who participated in those debates, attacking the planning proposals which we put forward.
Mr. Crouch Mr. Crouch indicated assent.
Mr. Peart: I am glad the hon. Member for Dorset, North nods his head. Although he is a Tory politician, he is a

1601
farmer with a sense of responsibility for his industry, and he knows quite well that it was the Labour Government who provided those security measures in the 1947 Act.
If we have to go back into history in order to find out who provided the guarantees, we can talk about the Corn Production Act, with its guarantees for wheat, and how that Act was repealed in 1921 by a predominantly Conservative Government. Nevertheless, I am glad that the hon. Member agrees that the Labour Government's Agriculture Act, 1947, has given security to the farmers; indeed, that is really what divides us from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite—our whole approach to agriculture.
I make no apologies for introducing politics in an agriculture debate today. The Minister did so in his own speech, and, after all, we are at the end of a Parliamentary Session, and we shall be asking these political questions in the countryside. I do not mind a vigorous debate in this House on agricultural matters, but I do believe that, in relation to the main principles which were laid down in the 1947 Act, there is a difference of approach between hon. Members opposite and ourselves.
We believe in a form of planning, and we are not ashamed to say that we planned for agriculture. Hon. Members opposite take every opportunity to attack it, because they do not believe in planning. While they say they want freedom for the farmer, they also want freedom for the middleman and for those financial interests behind the scenes, which, I believe, from time to time, negate the interests of the farmer-producer in our country. Therefore, there is certainly a difference of approach between us.
I should like to ask the Minister some questions, and, certainly, they are of a political character. I intervened earlier today on the issue of credit facilities, and I want to press this issue again, because it was the right hon. Gentleman's party which, time and time again when we were in power, used to argue that we must have credit facilities for the small farmer.
I go further than that, and I will quote, as I did before, to show that it was the party of the right hon. Gentleman opposite which, in its earlier manifesto called "The Agricultural Charter," stated specifically that if a Tory Government were
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elected, it would give credit facilities for the small farmers. Here, on page 38 of that document, we find the following words:
"Conservatives believe that sufficient credit should be made available at a reasonable rate to farmers and landowners to undertake development which will lead to increased output and lower costs of production."
I see that the Minister nods his head. His party's propaganda was even more specific, because it said this:
"… additional credit facilities are needed. Just as it has been found desirable to make additional money available to the smaller type of industrial enterprise through the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation, so funds should be placed at the disposal of co-operative and marketing organisations to assist in financing new enterprise in both agriculture and horticulture."
I ask the Minister what the Government have done. Here was a specific promise given by the Tory Party at the last Election. What has the Minister done about it? I am not blaming the Minister individually. He is a pleasant individual, who has been placed in his office, perhaps because of his personality, to act as a political soothsayer in the countryside. He must know about that specific promise, and that the Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer has failed to do anything about it.
I would not mind that, because we are used to the Tory Party letting down the countryside, and we are also used to that party throwing away its promises, but the Chancellor himself made a speech at a dinner in 1952. What did he say? I have here a report of his speech in "The Times." He was proposing the toast of agriculture at a dinner of the Farmers' Club. This report says:
"Mr. Butler said that he was fully aware of the problems of agricultural credit. He would simply say, without wishing to forestall his Budget, that he would go on examining with sympathy this question."
Nice and pleasant words, but what has happened? Time and time again, the Minister and the Treasury have been approached on this matter, and we have heard the speeches which Ministers have made, but what has happened?
Farmers' costs go up, and no one denies that. Their costs have gone up, and they affect particularly the small farmer. I know that that is the case in my own constituency, particularly in regard to hill farmers. There has been an inflationary

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trend in that sphere, and no one denies it. Costs have gone up and up during the period of office of the present Government, and yet the Chancellor and other right hon. Gentlemen opposite, over and over again in that pamphlet and in their speeches, have promised that they would do something for the small farmer.
We have this remarkable leaflet—an all-time low for the Tory Party in the countryside—entitled "Who's To Be The Farmer?," which suggested that, if a Labour Government were elected, there would be a Whitehall civil servant with a brief case farming from Whitehall.
I hope the Minister is not responsible for that type of propaganda, but even in this leaflet, which is an all-time low in political propaganda in the countryside, and of which even the Minister himself must be ashamed, we have a specific promise from the Conservative Party Central Office that the Conservatives would provide loans for small farmers and smallholder tenants of private landlords. I am asking the Minister what he is going to do about it, and I should like the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to give me a reply. I should like to know the effect of the decision of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to raise the Bank Rate. I should like to know what has been its effect on the small farmer. What approaches have been made from the National Farmers' Union on this issue?
It may be said that I am electioneering, but it was the right hon. Gentleman's party which put forward this specific proposal, and, therefore, I say today, when we are faced with a General Election, that it is essential that we should have an answer to the question why this promise has not been fulfilled and why no credit facilities have been given for small farmers, who have been facing great difficulties and who certainly will face increasing difficulties over the raising of the Bank Rate.
I come back to the second point which has been raised in the debate. I refer to the drift from the land. I have here the figures of the June returns, which no doubt will be quoted again, and perhaps over and over again in the countryside. The figures are rather alarming. They show that in June, 1953, there were 376· 5 thousand regular workers—males over 21 years and under 65—and that, in June,
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1954, that figure had dropped to 3656 thousand. What is more interesting is the position regarding workers over 18 and under 21. In June, 1953, the figure was 328 thousand, and it has now dropped to 326 thousand.
Hon. Members may ask why I am raising this matter, but I can remember that during the period of the Labour Government, hon. Members opposite time and time again chided the Labour Minister on the drift from the land. Time and time again we were attacked on this issue. Indeed, the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman said that this was one of the most important issues with which we had to deal, and I remember his speech at a farmers' meeting in the North of England.
What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do about that, because, after all, it was the Conservative Party's policy to encourage young people to go on the land? That is what they said in this dreadful document "Who's To Be The Farmer?" It said this:
"We will encourage young people of proved capacity to obtain farms of their own."
What has been done about it? Absolutely nothing so far, and we can see from the June returns that there has unfortunately been a drift from the land.
If we are to have a healthy, flourishing agriculture we must see that young entrants are encouraged to go into it, and we must also alter this unfortunate drift that now takes place. So tonight I ask the Minister what he is doing about it. That is what my right hon. Friend, when he was Minister, was asked by hon. Members opposite when they were in opposition. Where is the fulfilment of the promise to give an incentive to young people to own farms? Is it only propaganda? Is the Tory Party again merely putting forward specious promises which it knows it cannot fulfil? I suspect that that is what the Minister believes. Therefore he is trying to work out honestly, in his own way, a solution to the difficulties which he has to face because of the general policy which is pursued by his Government and, above all, by his Government's Treasury.
My right hon. Friend has mentioned the lack of confidence. In a previous debate the Parliamentary Secretary said

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that we were partly responsible because we used this argument. Surely, over the years, hon. Members opposite have read farming papers and the reports of N.F.U. meetings. Surely they have read carefully the proceedings of the last annual conference of the National Farmers' Union.
Hon. Members opposite must have read even the articles by the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir R. De la Bè re), who used to be a bitter critic of my right hon. Friend. In an article which is a strong condemnation of the policies pursued by the party opposite, the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South says:
"Why hide the truth? The Government must face the facts. I have said that the Government's present agricultural policy must result in a ghastly muddle."
That was what the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South said in the "Farmer and Stock-Breeder "in April, 1954. Over and over again we have had speeches in that tone from hon. Members opposite. We have had speeches, too, from responsible farming opinion. There is uncertainty in the countryside.
The real reason is that there is a difference of approach, as I stressed at the beginning of my speech. We on this side of the House believe in the security which was given in the Agriculture Act, 1947. We believe in planning for the countryside. We believe that the farmer will only be set free if we give him those essential guarantees and security measures which are contained in the 1947 Act. We believe in injecting new capital into the countryside by the Measures which we produced in that period—for example, the Hill Farming Act.
We do not believe that the farmer will benefit if we allow our economy to rip or if we allow the price mechanism to operate. That is why it is essential that the home producer should have that security. That is why I am worried that the home producer will be let down if a Conservative Government continues in power. We have had examples of that in the past.
That was why I put Questions to the Minister dealing with the common market for Europe. The right hon. Gentleman's colleague, the Paymaster-General, who attended all the conferences which led to the Paris decisions of last year, more or less pledged the Government's support in
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principle for a common market in Europe. As yet we have had no policy statement on this issue. It is a matter which affects particularly our own home horticultural industry.
How far will the Government let down the producer, as they did in the inter-war years? How far will they again say, "We will allow a flow of cheap products into our own country"? I have heard the Leader of the House and others say that the home producer must come first, the Commonwealth second and others third; but how is that to be reconciled with the activities of the Paymaster-General at the Paris Conference on the question of the common market? After all, the Paymaster-General was representing the Government and Government policy. Either the Government do not believe in a European common market, in which case they should say so, or they believe that horticulture should be protected, as it was protected during the period of the Labour Government.
That is why we are suspicious of hon. and right hon. Members opposite. As individuals they may have good intentions. Many of them are sincere men in the sense that they are practical farmers, but as farmers they must know that in the inter-war period they were let down by a policy which we must not pursue in this difficult post-war period. If we go back to the price mechanism, and if that vague phrase "Set the people free" is applied to the agricultural industry, I believe that the small farmer, and particularly the small farmer in my constituency on the hill farms of Cumberland, will suffer as he suffered in the inter-war period. Therefore, I hope that for the sake of the countryside Conservative policies will be rejected and that we can have that stability and confidence which we had in the industry when we had a Labour Government from 1945 to 1950.
8.16 p.m.
Mr. W. M. F. Vane: I have listened to nearly every agricultural debate during the life of this Parliament, if not to every agricultural debate, and this is the first time, Mr. Speaker, that I have tried to catch your eye. During all those debates a large part of the speeches from the benches opposite developed such a gloomy tone that one would have thought that the first wish of many farmers was to wind up their businesses

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before they found themselves approaching the Bankruptcy Court. Instead, the effort which has been put into the industry has been increasing year by year and output has increased year by year, until last year, with its disastrous weather, but for which a still further increase would have been shown.
Now, the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) complains because land is so closely held that there is not sufficient room for new entrants to the industry. That last point answers his first contention that there is so little confidence. All the same, we cannot treat lightly the question of the decline in the number of workers in the industry. That decline is not peculiar to this country. I believe that it is to be found in all countries, and particularly in those with a high degree of industrial development.
It is also understandable that in many farming enterprises the invention and development of the internal combustion engine has not only helped to raise our production to record levels but has also been responsible for seeing the displacement of a number of men. But we must also accept the fact that today there are many other jobs which seem to be more attractive to young men than working on the land.
Hon. and right hon. Members opposite must accept some responsibility for the fact that they were so slow in encouraging new building and the improvement of farm workers' houses after the war. There was then a great chance to do something—there always is after hostilities, when a curious additional interest is shown in work on the land, in forestry as well as in agriculture. Men who wanted to take up that work after the war found that there was no accommodation for them. Strange though it seems in retrospect, the building licence system in those days favoured the improvement of cowsheds rather than the improvement of farm workers' houses. So during those years we lost a number of men who would have wished to take up farming as their work.
Is my right hon. Friend the Minister satisfied that really effective opportunities are given in the Forces for men doing such vocational training during the last few months of their National Service to learn about agriculture and particularly about agricultural engineering? Are there
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really such pieces of equipment as cut-down tractors in the shops on which they can learn or is all this engineering training given in terms of urban industry, as I fear it may be?
I am glad that the hon. Member for Workington did not mention the question of pay as one of the difficulties. The Principal of the Cumberland and Westmorland Farm Institute, whom the hon. Member will know and respect, as I do, said recently when giving away the prizes at one of the Midland farm institutes that there had never been an opportunity such as today whereby a young farm worker could save a sum sufficient to enable him to enter a smallholding almost without recourse to credit. I am assuming, of course, that he has not married over-young and that he has only himself to support. Hon. Members can work out for themselves how much a young man who cares to be economical can save in the course of 10 years or so. Mr. Davis, whom I quote, mentioned a figure of £1,000 and I do not think that is out of the way where the man has no dependant.
The difficulty is in finding the opening. This is a small, crowded country and we cannot easily extend the acreage of available agricultural land. I was wondering what the hon. Member for Workington meant. Did he mean to push out some of the old in order to make room for the young whose cause he was championing? And since he quoted from certain Tory papers, all old—
Mr. Peart: No, one was the Election leaflet of the party opposite.
Mr. Vane:—he will not object if I quote a sentence from "Challenge to Britain," which refers to farming efficiency, on page 18, as follows:
"Labour will institute a system under which each district will have a standard output per acre, worked out on the basis of the output of farms in the district.
A farmer whose output is appreciably below this standard may be placed under the supervision of the County Committee, and during the period of supervision every help will be given to him by the Agricultural Advisory Service.
If there is no substantial improvement within a given period and there are no special circumstances, the farmer may lose his farm…."
I hope the right hon. Gentleman who will wind up the debate for the Opposition

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will tell us whether that is still Labour agricultural policy. I was wondering whether the hon. Gentleman was relying on that in order to find room for the young entrants. If he is, I think it is a harsh view.
The hon. Gentleman then went on to speak about credit. I wish that hon. Gentlemen opposite would tell us what they have in mind when they say that new or different credit facilities should be available.
Mr. Peart: But is not that the responsibility of the Minister? It was the party of hon. Gentlemen opposite who promised this specifically at the last Election, and they have been in power now for four years. Surely there is a responsibility on the people who promised that they would do something.
Mr. Vane: I am just about to tell the hon. Gentleman how I look at this question of credit.
I first asked him what he had in mind because there are two sides to this issue. There is first the quantity and there is secondly the rate, and they are two very different things. When credit was restricted by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, agriculture had special treatment. This is frequently forgotten but I know about it from my own experience because my banker told me that for other purposes he would not have been able to meet me as he did. Then comes the question of the rate. It is true that the rate of interest current at any time is taken into account in the Annual Price Review calculations. That is an answer to the hon. Gentleman.
For most people in the industry the existing facilities are ample, but I am prepared to accept the fact that for the small man, whose security is restricted more or less to his personal skill, there is a small gap which is extremely difficult to fill. On the Continent, where cooperative organisation is accepted somewhat differently from the way it is by us, that gap is filled largely by co-operative groups. Most of them would not be acceptable in this country, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and since I have been in this House representing an agricultural community where the typical individual holding is a small farm, I can say truthfully that I do not think I have
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heard more than one or two comments on agricultural credit in 10 years.
I have heard agricultural experts say that if the small farmer on marginal land would learn to use and accept more credit than he is willing to do at the present time, he would not only improve his output but would increase the national output and probably his own profit at the same time. Yet the last thing we ought to do, here or outside, is to encourage anyone to borrow more than he is justified in doing. If we do that, we shall certainly hurry a certain number of the weaker vessels towards the bankruptcy court.
Electricity was mentioned in this debate, as it has been in every agricultural debate we have had during the last three years, when hon. Members argued whether or not the rate of connections of farms today was higher or lower than it might have been if the electricity industry had not been nationalised. That is a sterile line of argument.
However, I should like to suggest two things to the Minister. First, is he satisfied that in all parts of England the forms of agreement offered by the various boards are suitable for the small farm, which offers a difficult problem to the distributor. Consumption of current is never likely to be large, and it may mean considerable capital costs to effect the connection. I am not suggesting that everything should be uniform throughout the country, but I believe that some regional boards have been more enterprising in developing a form of agreement which is particularly acceptable to these people.
Secondly, may I ask my right hon. Friend to look carefully into the system of single wire high-tension distribution which is especially suitable for work in thinly populated areas? It has been adopted widely in Australia and New Zealand and in some other countries and it may bring about a substantial reduction in the capital costs involved. There are a number of difficulties, but I heard yesterday that the Southern Board was carrying out experiments. Would my right hon. Friend look specially into this and, if he thinks it is a way of getting electricity more quickly and more cheaply to a number of farms and hamlets which are at present isolated, will he urge the

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electricity authorities to carry out more work on these lines?
I am not going to apologise for mentioning common land. I know many of the difficulties relating to it. I asked my right hon. Friend a Question about it earlier this week. I now ask him whether he would consider charging two or three county committees with the task of carrying out a very close survey of the commons in their areas. The commons could no doubt be classified by him into various categories. Some have little or no agricultural possibilities but great amenity value. In the case of others agricultural and amenity interests may clash. Others will have large agricultural possibilities and could be developed without any detriment to amenity interests.
At the same time, I ask my right hon. Friend whether it would be possible, by means of simple legislation, to widen the powers for the regulation of commons. The provision of water supplies, temporary fencing and ploughing old pasture land and re-seeding are at present beyond the statutory powers of those responsible for regulating commons. I should have thought that it would have been possible to draft something along these lines without setting in train complicated legislation which would probably have to be preceded by a very long and elaborate inquiry.
On the subject of marketing, I hope that the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) will tell us more about what the Labour Party means when it speaks about a system of fixed prices. How will that fit in with the existing chain of distribution? Will the body or bodies that the Labour Party intends to set up supersede the existing wholesale machinery, or will it be a system of shortening the chain by adding one more link to it, which is how I think it might work out? Will these bodies sell direct to retailers or not? The whole industry is entitled to know a little more about the proposal. It is cleverly phrased to make it appear attractive, but I think that when the farmers examine the Labour Party's proposals and the present situation during the next few weeks they will be satisfied and agree with me that the industry has never seen a better system of markets and prices in times of peace and plenty than it has today.
8.31 p.m.
Mr. George Brown: The last remark of the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Vane) was a very brave declaration.
Mr. Vane: And a true one.
Mr. Brown: As a method of whistling in the dark to keep up one's courage it is very much to be recommended, but as a statement of the real position it is a little wide of the mark.
There has been one thing about the debate which my hon. Friends and I have found very flattering. It is that although we are having a General Election very soon at a date chosen by the Government on issues chosen by the Government, and although to a large extent the result of the General Election will be determined in the rural areas, speakers from the Government benches today, from the Minister at the beginning to the hon. Member for Westmorland at the end of the debate, have turned the debate into a discussion of the Opposition's proposals and not the Government's proposals. The debate has been not upon the ideas and plans that the Government have in mind but upon the Opposition's plans. Of course, that is absolutely right, because the Government have not a single idea to put before the rural areas.[Interruption.]
Does the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. E. Wakefield) wish to interrupt me? As we are political neighbours, I shall be happy to allow him a chance to justify that rather curious noise. No, he is as silent in the House as he is in Derbyshire, West. As I shall no doubt be appearing in his constituency very soon, I shall be delighted to draw the attention of his constituents to the fact that even when I offer him an opportunity he has nothing to say about agriculture.
Even if the Opposition's proposals for agriculture were wrong and were open to all the criticism that the Minister tried to lash himself up to make, the Government have nothing to put in their place. That is the outstanding deduction which the countryside must draw from the debate. The countryside must give the Opposition's proposals very much greater attention at the General Election because they are the only proposals before it, the only proposals designed to meet the uncertainty, unhappiness and unrest that exist in the countryside.

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The Minister, whose predecessor I have repeatedly said was as good a Minister of Agriculture as the Conservative Party has ever produced, was pulled out of what was, from the point of view of agriculture, decent obscurity to take over the job when the Conservative Party had to get rid of the one man who knew how to do it, because he has the facility to stand up blandly, stolidly stonewalling and repeating a series of words without any regard to whether they fit the circumstances of the case. He made that same contribution to the debate today. I counted the number of times that the words, "rationing," "control" and "allocation" appeared in his speech. It was every other half sentence. It was a quite fantastic performance—just a repetition of the three words with a few other words to link them with the next repetition, and there was the whole speech.
Considering the uncertainty and the unrest in the industry, considering what the Vice-President of the National Farmers' Union said about it only a short while ago, considering—as my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) pointed out—that the Minister only just missed the most humiliating thing of all, a vote of no confidence carried at the National Farmers' Union annual conference—and the vote of no confidence is still on the agenda; they have not had sufficient confidence to take it off, but they did not proceed to pass it—despite all that, to get up and claim that the years the Government have been in office have been years of progress and achievement was a pretty fantastic tall order.
the face of that uncertainty in the industry, he really ought to have directed his attention to making some constructive proposals to meet the farmers. Indeed, the whole complaint of the industry all the way through has been that the Government have nothing to put there. They have decontrolled; they have rushed into what they choose to call, with their curious inability to use language correctly, a free market; they choose to go doctrinaire after decontrol without consultation with anybody; they create the unrest and yet in the face of all that, even at Election time, they have nothing at all to put there.
It is the Government's job, or should have been their job, to have produced in
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this debate some evidence that they have thought about the problems which they have created. The first charge I make against the Government, the first charge I make to the countryside about the Government, is that they have created the unrest and uncertainty that exist. This is not a period of difficulty that has come upon them through outside events or through anything that the industry has done. It has been injected into what otherwise could have been a settled period by the Government for what one can only presume to be doctrinaire reasons.
One of the incidental points I want to put to the Parliamentary Secretary arises out of the Minister's continual references to the fact that in his view and the view of the Government the farmer knows best what to do with his land; that this Government do not want to tell him what to do with it; that only the Socialists would tell him that. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, if that is the case, what has happened to the circular which the previous Minister, the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Sir T. Dugdale), issued in 1952 instructing his county committees to toughen up the procedure by which they were then dealing with farmers who were not farming efficiently. The circular instructed the committees to dispossess those farmers without as long a period of supervision as they had given them before.
That is telling the farmer what to do with a vengeance. That is not letting the farmer choose for himself. That was a direct instruction from the Minister's predecessor to the county committees to be much tougher and to dispossess without allowing as long a period of supervision as had previously been given. Is that circular still in operation? My information is that it is. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary, if he is in a position to speak for his Minister, to tell us how the right hon. Gentleman squares the brave words he issued here publicly with what he is apparently secretly instructing his committees to do. There is a great contradiction here, and I think that the countryside should know whether he has withdrawn the circular or not. I should be interested to find out. My information is that the circular still exists, and the Minister's words today

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have no meaning in that context except to give a rash view outside.
Everybody would like to believe that one can have all this and heaven too—planning and freedom from planning, the benefits of planning and the benefits of freedom at the same time with no limitation at all. We all know that that is not possible. On this side we are prepared to say so, but the Minister hopes to get away with it by leading people up the garden path.
As to the reference to the years of progress and achievement, I want to put one or two questions to the Parliamentary Secretary about that. His Minister proclaims these as years of progress and achievement. Was the Minister thinking of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Gadarene swine when he said that. When one of my hon. or right hon. Friends uses a phrase that can be turned or twisted, it gets turned and twisted for years and years. The former Minister of Agriculture—the predecessor to the present Minister, who has not been in office long enough to have any influence at all on these matters—asked the farmers to produce one million more pigs. The farmers produced the one million more pigs; whereupon the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes along and says, "Yes, but you having produced all these pigs, we shall all be swept away in the rush of the Gadarene swine." Is that progress? Does the Minister call that progress or achievement, or both?
Incidentally, I was astonished, and I am sure that the country will be too, to hear one of the Minister's remarks. I took his words down when he said—and perhaps he will correct me if I misquote him, because this will be used again—that the market gets depressed under the present system of support prices only if the production called forth by these guarantees itself depresses the market. If the Minister disagrees, would he say what it was that he tried to say?
Mr. Amory: I said that the guarantees can influence the market only inasmuch as they influence the volume of production, but otherwise the market price was settled by the balance between supply and demand.
Mr. Brown: We can see the exact words tomorrow; we will play fair about it. I thought he said that the system of de-
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ficiency payments that he is operating can depress the price which is received only if it calls forth a sufficiently large volume of production to affect the inter-relation of supply and demand. That is what I thought he said, but we can see the exact words tomorrow. The Minister says that that is perfectly sound, but did he think of this: that under the system the more the farmers produce in response to his incentives the greater the risk of reducing the amount they receive? Otherwise this statement means nothing. That is the only meaning of those words—"Under our system, if we are successful in calling forth greater production from you, what you are producing may depress the market price."
Mr. Amory: It all depends on the rate of consumption.
Mr. Brown: "If you produce so much in answer to our deficiency payments that the consumer will not buy it all at the previous market price, then the market price will drop and that will affect your earnings."
Mr. Amory: That is what the deficiency payment is for.
Mr. Brown: Exactly, that is what the deficiency payment is for. Now have we got the guaranteed price and the assured market into perspective? Is this the guaranteed price? Is the deficiency payment scheme designed to produce a result whereby the more the farmer produces the lower the end price he receives?
Mr. Amory: No.
Mr. Brown: This is claimed to be a guaranteed price. The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Bullard) was a little upset when I interrupted him earlier in the debate and asked what was a guaranteed price. Does he accept this definition? Does he think that the farmers in South-West Norfolk will accept that a guaranteed price is a price which falls if the farmer produces more than the consumer will pay for at the old price? That is not a guaranteed price—
Mr. Bullard: I accept in this respect the definition of a guaranteed price which the right hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) gave at the time of the introduction of the Act.
Mr. Brown: Since the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West refuses to answer my question, it is quite clear that he does not feel comfortable about having to answer it. We shall see that it is put to him again in South-West Norfolk, at Downham and in other places.
This is exactly what I was saying earlier, that guaranteed prices and an assured market must mean telling the farmer that if he produces a quantity of food it will be bought from him at a guaranteed price. That is the only meaning there is to the words, "guaranteed price and an assured market."
Unlike his predecessor, the present Minister of Agriculture has lent himself to a system which perhaps he did not rightly understand when he started—they brought him in too suddenly. He has lent himself to a system under which, when a farmer sets out to produce food, all he knows is that there is a guaranteed average price operating. But if by ill luck—mark those words—the farmer produces too much, the consumer will not pay the price; and the ultimate price which the farmer receives will be lower even than the guaranteed average price which he originally expected.
Why is that? Because if, for example, a farmer produces grain under this system and sells when the price is very low, because the quantity coming on the market—as in the autumn of last year—happens to be too much and "depresses the market"—to use the words of the Minister—the producer receives a very low price. Then it may well be that three months later the people who were able to hold on to their grain sell it for a much higher price. The very low price and the higher price are then averaged. That figure is deducted from the guaranteed average, and the resulting difference is shared between the man who sold at a low price and the man who sold at a higher price.
Consequently, the man who has already sold at a low price gets only the same share of the difference as is received by the man who sold at the higher price. That man may have sold at more than the guaranteed average price, so that he receives more than the guaranteed average price, plus the share of the difference between the two prices. The man who sold at the low price will get less than the guaranteed price, plus the share
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of the difference, and he may find that his ultimate price is below the guaranteed average. That is why I say that the more that is produced the more likelihood there is of uncertainty about a producer receiving even the guaranteed average price, let alone the guaranteed price.
This is not a system of guaranteed prices and assured markets at all. There is not even an assurance that the producer will be able to sell. There is not even an assurance that there will be a market for the goods produced. If we allow the millers to buy all they want from overseas, and then allow them to tell the British farmers whether they want their grain or not—and to pay as little for it as they like—it may well turn out that in a particular year the home-produced grain will not be sold at all. And if the British farmers do not sell they do not receive even a share of the guaranteed price. A farmer may have produced grain, but he has to sell it before he can share in the guaranteed price. Therefore he has to take the price which is bound to result from his helping to depress the market by securing a sale in order to get any entitlement at all.
I want the countryside to understand that this alleged system is not following either the letter or the spirit of the 1947 Act. The Minister can keep wagging his head and saying that it is, but the answer is that it is not. The Minister makes a bland assertion and repeats it again and again, but he cannot solve the problem of the man who has faced precisely this situation during the last year. The term, "guaranteed price and an assured market" must mean just that. If it does not, it means that there is neither, and the situation today is that there is neither, as the countryside is well aware, and that explains the uneasiness which exists today.
Then there is the meat muddle and the millions of pounds a week which are flowing out; the situation which has let in the dealers once more; which has let in the auction markets. The muddle would have been much worse had not the National Farmers' Union come to the rescue of a wretched Minister without a policy and set up the Fatstock Marketing Corporation to put some kind of floor into the situation.

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In addition to the meat muddle which has cost us millions, there is the grain muddle, in which the millers were allowed so to rig the market with imports that they insisted on paying £8 or £9 a ton less than the guaranteed price for home products; and have since, for example, sold wheat offals for more than they paid for the whole grain when they took it. We, the taxpayers, have paid the subsidy on that for a situation which gave no real assurance to the producers, which cost us all a lot of money, and which has not helped the consumer at all.
The Minister is awfully self-satisfied. His last words were that we must not be complacent. My golly, when the right hon. Gentleman goes home tonight, he ought to repeat those words to himself in front of a mirror, because that is just what he is. Prices to the housewife have gone up, farmers' incomes have gone down and farm subsidies have gone up, and the right hon. Gentleman tells us that we are now paying out rather more than £250 million a year for a system that has assured nobody at all. It really is a most incredible record
Mr. Amory: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question? Does he think that if the consumer were offered the choice of the present position or that of four years ago, there is any chance whatever of his preferring the situation of four years ago?
Mr. Brown: I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman means the consumer or the producer.
Mr. Amory: The consumer.
Mr. Brown: I will come to the consumer in a moment. For the present, I am taking the Minister through his record with the producer. I am quite certain that the producer would rather have a situation in which he had guaranteed prices and assured markets and in which the Exchequer liability was known. As the "British Farmer" said in its last issue but one, the fact that the Exchequer liability is undetermined and the fact that the market returns are undetermined is the inevitable outcome of the Minister's own policy of deficiency payments. It means that there can be no knowledge at all of what the Exchequer is going to pay out and no knowledge of what the return to the producer will be.
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The present system which is alleged to be a guarantee is nothing of the sort. It is costing far more than would a reasonable system of guarantees or assured markets, and certainly far more than the Government forecast that it would. Nobody knows what it will cost in any year, and neither the housewife nor the producer is getting the benefit.
The Minister talked about our attacking the little retailer. We are not dealing with him, but with the millers, the compounders, the dealers and the auctioneers who, under this system, are the people who have got away with the swag. They are the people who have been feather-bedded by the right hon. Gentleman, and it is to them that the subsidies are really going.
The Minister keeps telling the agricultural industry, "We are supporting you to the tune of £250 million a year." But the people in the industry know that what is really happening under the present system is that they are being blamed for the cost of a system which does not support them, but which is, in fact, enabling the big boys in the distributive trades—the middlemen—to get away with the swag at the expense of the taxpayer and of the consumer, and that at the risk that some day the industry will be told that it is getting too much.
The price this year was very nearly not an agreed one. It became an agreed price only when someone politically a little higher than the Minister came along and said, "There will be an Election soon, and we must have an agreed price." The Council of the N.F.U. know that. My friends in the industry tell me what is happening. That is where I get my information. They know what happens in price negotiations. Where will they stand next year when, perhaps, there will not be a General Election in the offing?
When hon. and right hon. Members opposite were the Opposition, they were under no illusion that this was not a guaranteed market, because every Conservative Member of the Standing Committee which dealt with the Committee stage of the 1947 Bill voted against Clause 1 of that Measure. Every single one of them voted against guaranteed prices and assured markets. Why did they say that they were doing so? They said, "It does not

1621
go far enough; it does not give guaranteed prices and assured markets to everybody." They did not talk about deficiency payments, supports or minima in those days.
The present Leader of the House said that it did not guarantee the British producer the first place in the market. The Government are not guaranteeing him first place in this way. My friends who produced grain last year in East Anglia did not get first place in the market; they got the place left after Mr. Rank, Mr. Spiller and the rest had filled up with foreign stuff. Yet the Leader of the House, the Attorney-General, the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd)—all those hon. Members opposite who sat upon that Committee were saying that we did not go far enough. Now it turns out that we went a good deal further than they were prepared to go.
The Minister now says that our system cannot operate without rationing, controls and allocations. Nothing I can say will alter the view of the Government. They will placard the hoardings in this Election with the words "Rationing, allocation and controls." The only difference is that those words will appear instead of "nationalisation." On the last occasion, nearly every Conservative hoarding referred to land nationalisation, although we said that we were not going to do it, and it was not in our programme. Now they have invented three new words.
In this House we are not allowed to say that something is a deliberate lie, but outside the House the people who say that our system will mean rationing, controls and allocations will face that accusation. It does not mean rationing or allocations. We have the Milk Marketing Board. We have a guaranteed price and a fixed price for milk—a monopoly distribution, if one likes to call it that, by the Milk Marketing Board—but that does not mean that milk is rationed, and we do not need to ration anything else.
If the Minister says that under our system the demand will be greater than the supply, I say that that presupposes that the supply must be greater than the demand today, but that is because the Government have other ways of reducing the demand than by rationing. If the supply is equal to the demand, of course, there is no question of limitation. The Minister's assertion is not true; it is an
1622
invention because he cannot produce a constructive answer to our proposals.
For once the Minister read from a brief which was obviously not prepared in 55, Whitehall; it was obviously prepared in the Central Office of the Conservative Party. It could not have come from 55, Whitehall, because the people there know about marketing boards and the Conservative Central Office does not.
The Minister said that we were proposing to set up vast new Government-sponsored bodies. We are proposing to encourage industry to set up producer marketing boards. Does the Minister suggest that such bodies are vast Government-sponsored bodies? We want marketing boards for other products besides milk. It is true that in two cases only, where the imported product is a large part of the supply, we propose that independent commissions should be set up, because unless we are going to let the producer down—I am not suggesting that we should give the producer first place in the market—somebody has to integrate the overseas supplies and the home supplies and make them complementary instead of conflicting.
Instead of merely throwing meaningless words and abuse at us in connection with our proposals—rather like a little schoolboy in his first political debate—the Minister could have told us how he proposes to make sure that the imported element of the meat supply does not depress the market for the home supply at some stage. He has no ideas in the matter of integrating supplies.
We believe that the way to do it is to set up an independent commission. Elsewhere, we would set up producer marketing boards, because we gave birth to them; we passed the main Acts in connection with them, and we still believe that they are right. We are not going to run away from our opinion because of all this abuse about these vast Government-sponsored bodies. What do we propose to do? I am delighted to tell the House, and through the House the countryside, since the Government have nothing to tell the people there.
We propose to have a long-term production policy. We propose to agree and negotiate with the industry what the production policy shall be, what it is we want, what it is we are prepared to buy,

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what kind of things, instead of just leaving it to the farmers to make the best guess they can, only to find that the millers have depressed the market. We propose a long-term production plan to start with. We shall agree with the industry, as my right hon. Friend used to do, and have a system of guaranteed actual prices and assured markets.
I remind the House that the National Farmers' Union a little while ago said that, in its view, a system of guaranteed actual prices and assured markets known in advance was fundamental to any increased expansion of British agriculture. We agree with the National Farmers' Union, as it happens, on this issue, and with the National Farmers' Union we are against the Government upon it. We shall have guaranteed prices and assured markets. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite can say what they like about that in the countryside. Let them try. The farmers know what it means.
We propose to deal with the shortage of credit. The Minister says that there is no real gap. However, his hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. J. E. B. Hill), who won a by-election in that constituency not long ago, and who the other day made his maiden speech here, spent most of it proving to the Minister that there was such a gap. We propose to deal with that by setting up some agency, or, it may be, using existing agencies, to see that credit to finance an expansion programme will be available to the people for whom there is a gap at the moment, and at favourable rates of interest.
Mr. Vane Mr. Vane rose—
Mr. Brown: I am sorry, but I cannot give way, because I am already taking up some of the Parliamentary Secretary's time.
We propose to see that the capital investment programme goes up. It actually fell under the present Government from £86 million in 1951 to £79 million in 1953. We propose to see that some land which is not in use and which should be in use is brought into use. We propose to see that the county committees are enabled to play a useful and good part again, as, I know from personal experience, they once did.
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We propose to see that the agricultural workers get a fair deal. As a result of guaranteed prices and assured markets and an agreed production plan, the prosperity which will ensue in the industry will enable the workers to get wages comparable to those of their colleagues in the towns. We propose to see that the tied cottage problem is ended, and that alternative accommodation is provided for such people as the unfortunate family of whom we read in this morning's papers, who have had to leave a house that goes with a farm. We propose to see safety measures introduced on the farms. We propose to deal with that problem, on which the Government have steadfastly refused to spend any time, although they could have found time for it. We shall deal with that when we come back.
If the Election is to be fought on the kind of speech the Minister made today, so be it. If no programme is to be discussed but our programme, because the Government have none, that will suit us. If there is to be nothing from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite but abuse of us, and the parrot-like repetition of "Rationing, allocation and controls," so be it. We believe that we have a plan for food production in this country that the producers understand, that has worked well, and that enabled the industry to expand and that can do so again.
Those of us who have urban constituents as well as rural constituents believe that it is a plan we can confidently take to our urban constituents, too. We believe we can tell the housewives that it will pay them well, because it will guarantee them food. For myself, I assure hon. Gentlemen opposite who sit for marginal rural seats in Norfolk, Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire and elsewhere that we are more than willing to try our plan and the event in their own constituencies.
9.5 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): If I do not reply to the many points made during the debate I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will forgive me, as the time at my disposal is very short.
May I begin with one of the controversial issues which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) dealt with in his speech, and which was discussed by hon. Members

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on both sides of the House. I refer to the issue of whether or not the system of deficiency payments operating in a free market is indeed a system of guaranteed prices within the principle of the 1947 Act.
The hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon), who made one of his usual valuable contributions, made that point. I think that it was well answered by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Bullard), and I would remind right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite of a passage in a speech which I made last June in the Supply Day debate which we had then. This was an extract which I read from the White Paper which accompanied the 1947 Act, which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley issued:
"The price may be a guaranteed fixed price; a rate of deficiency payment related to a standard price; an acreage payment; a subsidy; or a price calculated in accordance with a formula, of which, for example, the price of feedingstuffs might be the basis. Of the other major factors the most important is the quantity which is to be covered by the determination."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd June, 1954; Vol. 528, c. 1580–1.]
The right hon. Gentleman, in his speech in the Second Reading debate, added this:
"It is, however, possible in the Bill to use some prewar machinery should that be the best method, such as, for instance, the Wheat Commission "—
which operated on a wheat deficiency payment system—
"the Milk Marketing Board, or anything parallel to these."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th January, 1947; Vol. 432, c. 631.]
That has been said here many times, and I think that it does no harm to say it again, because out of the right hon. Gentleman's own mouth he directly controverts what the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) has just said.
Mr. T. Williams: I entirely agree with every word I said then.
Mr. Nugent: The right hon. Gentleman and his advisers foresaw at the time that the day would come when supplies would be sufficient and it would no longer be possible to use the fixed price system such as was used during shortage. The right hon. Gentleman wisely provided for it. Let no one go out into the country and say that the system of deficiency payments is contrary to the spirit of the 1947 Act—it is not.
Mr. G. Brown: It certainly is.
Mr. Nugent: The right hon. Member is simply saying that black is white.
The next controversial point—I am sorry to labour it again with the right hon. Gentleman—is the question of indices of production. I see that there is a Question to my right hon. Friend relating to that subject on the Order Paper, and we will publish them in full, so that everyone can see them.
Mr. Williams: Those for 1952, 1953, 1954, and 1955?
Mr. Nugent: No, from 1945 onwards giving the complete indices of production, as revised according to the best information which the Department has.
Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman must not expect us to accept any figures that he or anybody else cares to provide.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—since the Government have already provided White Papers in 1952, 1953, 1954 and 1955. Surely their own White Papers are good enough for this House without giving spurious figures.
Mr. Nugent: These will be the figures of the White Papers. Some slight revision has been made in the light of the best information which we have had recently, and the right hon. Gentleman need not be afraid because they do in fact operate on his side. The most recent figures which we have had since decontrol of pig production showed that there should be some revision of the figures which we had in the past.
The figures which I quoted are all concerned with total production. The figures which the right hon. Gentleman quoted were those of agricultural holdings, excluding holdings under one acre, and that caused, I think, some confusion in the discussion which we had. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the figures which I gave are correct, and there was in fact an increase—from 127 to 145—of 18 points in the six years of Labour Government.
Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman is not going to get away with that. There is no such thing as a 127 increase in any of the White Papers published by his Government. Where has he got that 127 from? Is it from the Conservative and Unionist Campaign Guide? He cannot

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expect us to sit here and let him or the Conservative Central head office conjure up figures to suit their purpose.
Mr. Nugent: I am obliged to the right hon. Member for the way in which he gave way to me when he was making his speech, but he will realise that his right hon. Friend the Member for Belper has taken up five minutes of my time. The figures are Departmental figures. Naturally, I would not quote any others.
In regard to the first two years of the previous Administration I had something to do with Price Reviews on the other side. I remember very well indeed the extremely tight awards that were given in both those years. In fact, not until August, 1947—more than two years after the right hon. Gentleman came into office—did he realise that it would be necessary to give better prices in order to get an increase in production. That was the reason why production went down in those two years. Let me put that on the record.
Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman is simply avoiding the truth.
Mr. Nugent: I am not avoiding the truth; I am speaking the truth.
If the right hon. Member will look at the figures of net income for those two years he will see it was under £200 million and it was not until he gave the Special Review in August, 1947, that the income went up to anything of the kind which would give the industry an incentive. I shall have to turn from this controversial subject to deal with another, but I hope that it is on record that the right hon. Gentleman was very selective.
Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman has been trying out sharp practice.
Mr. Nugent: The right hon. Member has had his turn and plenty of time to make his speech.
In the few moments remaining I wish to say this. My right hon. Friend recalled in his speech today what has been done in the last three and a half years. The fact is that we have managed to get an expanding production in the foods that were particularly wanted and have managed at the same time, by our general policy, to restore the financial strength of the country in order that we could
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import from abroad the necessary additional food so that gradually, commodity by commodity, we have been able to reach sufficiency instead of shortage.
The result has been that, one by one, we have had to tackle those commodities and decide how we were to see them marketed and what sort of price guarantee we would provide to give consumer choice at the same time as we kept stability of returns for the producer. That is what we have done. The systems are now all working. We have got rid of the ration book, we have continued to give security to farmers throughout the country, and production has continued to increase, with the exception of the period affected by the weather conditions of last year.
The charge of right hon. and hon. Members opposite is that the free market system which we have established is expensive and inefficient. We have to meet that charge. Whatever defects right hon. and hon. Members opposite may say there are—and I quite agree there are defects, as there are in any human organisation—nevertheless this is the most efficient system we could devise. I wish to examine the alternative which right hon. Members opposite have put to us of how they think the most difficult of all commodities, meat, might be marketed if it were not marketed through the free markets which we have set up.
Let me put this on record. During the current year estimated consumption has gone up from 1,950,000 tons to 2,250,000 tons—an increase of 13 per cent.—in the free market. What a tremendous blessing that has been to every household in the country. It could not have been done unless we had established this system. Let me make that clear.
Let us see how the free market system works and what we have done in order to bring it about. I do not doubt the sincerity of hon. Members opposite in saying that they believe that their system would not lead to rationing, but it may be that they have not examined this problem in such detail as we have. We examined this problem in the very greatest detail for every commodity—not just meat but every one. We naturally considered every means by which we could bring about what everybody desires. I am quite prepared to accept the statement of hon. Members opposite, but I

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do not think they will find it is convincing when I have finished what I have to say.
There are two choices. There is the experience that we have had of the wartime system, with the Ministry of Food buying all the meat from abroad and all the meat at home, bulking the two together and pushing them out through the system of rationing at fixed prices and fixed margins all the way through. I hope and believe that everybody understands that once a sufficiency of supply is achieved, that system breaks down. It cannot work. I am not making an Election point. I made a speech similar to this a year ago, and I was not controverted by any hon. Member opposite. I said it because I knew it to be the truth.
As I say, the war-time system involving Ministry of Food operations breaks down when there is sufficiency. It is not possible for the housewife to choose over the counter what she wants, unless the retailer who supplies her has the chance to go out and select what he believes his customers will want.
The alternative that hon. Members opposite would be driven to is that their commodity commission would operate as a single central marketing organisation buying all the imported meat and all the home-produced meat. They would then bulk it together and operate as a single seller. There would be two main difficulties with which they would have to contend. Their first difficulty would be that, having got rid of all the live auction markets in the country, they would have to find the immensely increased premises for this meat to be sold on a dead-weight basis.
At present three-quarters of our cattle, two-thirds of our sheep and one-third of our pigs are sold in the live auction markets. It is no use saying that the premises that the Ministry of Food had during the war could be used. They could only be used for a system of allocation where the meat was passed through in a very few categories, and where there was no attempt at any selection or choice and no system of buying and selling.
The first requirement would be the building of a range of large-scale dead-meat markets throughout the country. Behind that there would have to be a system of refrigeration and storage to
1630
take care of the meat that was not sold, and that would take perhaps five or six years. It would be physically impossible to introduce this system immediately. At the end of the building programme, the physical facilities would exist, but there would then be a second objection. That is the difficulty of a single seller selling a commodity which is highly perishable and has to provide a very big range of choice.
The difficulty would be that, responsible as this commission would be to the nation, it would have to have a sufficient supply to ensure that everybody's need was met. Therefore, it would always be, so to speak, long of supplies. It would make up its price schedules at the prices at which it was going to sell, and it would have to take a decision weekly, monthly and yearly to buy £400 million worth per annum—the nation's supply of meat—and decide what the nation wanted in advance, an immensely difficult undertaking.
Obviously the particular varieties that were wanted would find some market and buyers would go for them, but the less wanted varieties would attract no market and the buyers would simply stand off, with the result that the prices would fall and fall, so that in order to clear stocks the central seller, the commission, would have to bear an unlimited loss. Here, indeed, would be a paradise for the middleman—no competition at all, and knowing that, in the meat market, the commission would have to sell a perishable article, and that the only alternative was to put it in the refrigerator, which it will not get for five or six years. When the commission gets it, it would find that it would cost, with the cost of refrigeration and the lower value of the frozen meat, about 6d. or 7d. a pound in depreciation. What a paradise for the buyer.
In a word, it is an experiment which, goodness knows, nobody else has ever tried to carry out in any other country—to make a single seller of a highly perishable and immensely variegated commodity like this—and it is perfectly evident that the dilemma which this commission would have to face would be that it would either be wishing to give the advantage to the consumers, in which case it would expose itself to unlimited

1631
losses, or it would be pressed to keep down the loss and would really be forced to restriction, allocation and rationing.
I do assure the House that we gave the most earnest thought to this subject when we were considering what should be done in the derationing of meat. We were most anxious to have the best system that we could have in this country, and that is the conclusion which was inevitably brought home to us. Indeed, if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, in the light of what I have said, stick to their view about marketing in this way and do not believe that it would lead to rationing, it leads to one conclusion, and that is not only that if they came back to govern this country we should have rationing, but that, had they continued to govern the country, they would never have had either the understanding or the courage necessary to undertake this huge operation and we should still have been rationed today. [An HON. MEMBER: "Bogy, bogy."] It is not a question of "Bogy, bogy" at all.
Here, indeed, is a proposal from the other side of the House under which the costs of marketing would really be astronomical. Let me make this further point. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have been charging us with a disregard for the farmers and saying that their proposals would please the farmers. Let me quote this comment, which Mr. H. J. Twigg, President of the 1954 Cooperative Congress, made about their policy. The heading is "Muddled Thinking About Marketing: A Silly Policy Statement." He said:
"I happened to be, on the day of its publication, attending a farmers' conference at Oxford which was dealing with marketing policy, and it was notable that the references, even from those known to be Labour Party sympathisers, to this latest statement were of the most tepid character, whilst the attitude of the farmers was aptly summed up in a comment which I overheard between three of them, none active politicians, describing the new policy as 'plain daft.' As a co-operative worker with some business experience, I warmly endorse those sentiments."
Let not the Opposition think that this policy has made any impression whatever on the question of the farmers' confidence.
Mr. Harold Davies: We have not had an answer.
Mr. Nugent: The right hon. Gentleman made a considerable attack on the present system of cereal marketing, saying that in his opinion it was a blissful paradise for the merchants and millers, and that it was unhelpful to farmers and so on.
First of all, on the question of the operation of the deficiency payments, I have made it quite clear to the House and beyond controversy that it is within the principle of the 1947 Act, and that the actual operation of the deficiency payment is to guarantee the industry that on the whole it will receive a payment sufficient to make up the average market price to the guaranteed price level. That certainly means that the farmer who puts his cereals on the market in such a condition or at such a time that they fetch a low price will obtain a lower premium than the man who puts his stuff on the market in good condition and at the best time.
The whole object of this exercise is to try to get the best marketing that we can, in the best condition and at the time that the consumer wants it. If the farmer gets an extra reward, surely that is what we would all desire. He would be serving the country as we wish him to do.
The alternative of setting up a commission which would buy all the wheat, home-produced and imported, would be to create exactly the same difficulties. First, it would have to extend its operations to cover all coarse grains. Again, this is a subject to which we gave great attention when we were considering derationing. Because of the interchange-ability of wheat and coarse grains for feedingstuff purposes, it is essential that if one takes control of one commodity one must take control of the lot. Therefore, the commission would have to trade in all three. Once again, it would be in the difficulty of being a single great seller.
Its position would roughly be the same as that of the Cotton Commission, which we all remember, with its unhappy end, making finally, in its last two years, the enormous loss of £40 to £45 million. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, in the debate that followed, made these remarks, which put the matter in a nutshell:
"They are compelled by the inexorable logic of circumstances to sell at the bottom

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of a rise and to accumulate at the top of a fall. I do not say that they gain nothing on the swings, but I do say that they lose nearly everything on the roundabouts."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th November, 1953; Vol. 520, c. 1743.]
My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade hit the nail on the head. A single marketing agent like that would have to buy all the grain for the country; it would have to ensure that it had a sufficient supply to meet both the milling and the feedingstuff requirements, and it would, therefore, always be at the mercy of the market when the market turned. Once again, it would be in precisely the same difficulty.
We have most carefully considered these circumstances. Far from making a stronger market, in which case the cost to the Exchequer would be less, the Commission would make weaker markets, whereby the cost to the Exchequer would be infinitely more. The logic of the whole procedure would be that by the pressure of the Exchequer the party opposite would be driven back again to allocation and rationing. If hon. and right hon. Members opposite go out into the country and tell farmers that they will revert to the rationing of feedingstuffs and other commodities, they will not find a very warm welcome for their words.
My right hon. Friends have to their credit the development of a policy which has met the nation's need in these extremely difficult three and a half years. The business of developing forms of marketing and price guarantee to operate in free markets and shifting the business of the nation's food supply—about £2,000 million worth per annum—from the Ministry of Food to private hands is an immense operation involving very big risks and an enormous amount of work. If it had not been undertaken with both vision and courage the nation would never have been freed from rationing.
What hon. and right hon. Members opposite have made clear tonight, if they have made nothing else clear, is that either they do not or will not understand the working of a free market. It is only in a free market that one gets equilibrium between the producer supply and the consumer demand and where one gets the prices naturally formed and equilibrium established. Any alternative of the kind that the right hon. Gentleman opposite
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suggested can but lead to unlimited expense or to the return of rationing. And so we can say, in our last word on the agricultural policy of the present Government, that it has met the nation's need, that it has continued to keep production increasing, and that it has finally freed a grateful country from the shackles of rationing.
It being half-past Nine o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 16 (Business of Supply) , to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Resolution under consideration.
Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, put and agreed to.
Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Classes I—X of the Civil Estimates and of the Revenue Departments' Estimates, the Ministry of Defence Estimate, the Navy Estimates, the Army Estimates and the Air Estimates.

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1955–56
  CLASS I

    CENTRAL GOVERNMENT AND FINANCE
    Question,
    That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class I of the Civil Estimates,
    put and agreed to.

CLASS II

  COMMONWEALTH AND FOREIGN
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class II of the Civil Estimates.
  put and agreed to.

CLASS III

  HOME DEPARTMENT, LAW AND JUSTICE
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class III of the Civil Estimates.
  put and agreed to.

CLASS IV

  EDUCATION AND BROADCASTING
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class IV of the Civil Estimates,
  put and agreed to.

CLASS V

  HEALTH, HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class V of the Civil Estimates,
  put and agreed to.

CLASS VI

  TRADE, LABOUR AND SUPPLY
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class VI of the Civil Estimates,
  put and agreed to.

CLASS VII

  COMMON SERVICES (WORKS, STATIONERY, &C.)
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class VII of the Civil Estimates,
  put and agreed to.

CLASS VIII

  AGRICULTURE AND FOOD
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class VIII of the Civil Estimates,
  put and agreed to.

CLASS IX

  TRANSPORT, FUEL, POWER, AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class IX of the Civil Estimates,
  put and agreed to.

CLASS X

  PENSIONS, NATIONAL INSURANCE AND NATIONAL ASSISTANCE
  Question,
  That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Class X of the Civil Estimates,
  put and agreed to.

ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1955–56
Question,
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Revenue Departments Estimates,
put and agreed to.

MINISTRY OF DEFENCE ESTIMATE, 1955–56
Question,
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Ministry of Defence Estimate,
put and agreed to.

NAVY ESTIMATES, 1955–56
Question,
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Navy Estimates,
put and agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES, 1955–56
Question,
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Army Estimates,
put and agreed to.

AIR ESTIMATES, 1955–56
Question,
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Air Estimates,
put and agreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS [2nd May]
Resolution reported,
That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1956, the sum of £2,451,986,045 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. H. Brooke.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION)
Bill to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-six, and to appropriate the supplies granted in this Session of Parliament, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 81.]

POTATO MARKETING SCHEME
9.34 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): I beg to move,
That the Draft Potato Marketing Scheme, 1955, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6th April, be approved.
The Scheme has been promoted by the Potato Marketing Board in co-operation with the National Farmers' Unions. I must say a brief word in explaining what the amendments to the old Scheme are. The Scheme revises the pre-war Scheme. It has the same objectives, which are the stabilisation of the market and the improvement of quality and marketing. Briefly, the marketing problem is one of a seasonal variation in yield. The inelastic demand for potatoes for human consumption when other foods are plentiful makes it impossible to expand human consumption when the price falls, so that in a year when there is a heavy yield the surplus has to go for stock feed at a low price.
Naturally, it is essential that we should have a system which will give fair returns to producers, especially with a crop which is so expensive—£80 to £90 an acre—to grow. We have devised a support price system which will be operated by this Board. The system will leave the market free to determine the price level at the normal price of potatoes and will operate over a support price which will not normally come into operation. The basic idea is that in a normal year the market will be sufficient to return a fair price to producers. In a year of high yield when there is an excess of production over requirements of consumers the surplus will be disposed of by the Board's selling it for stock feeding at the best price it can make. Producers will share in the loss at 5 per cent. to give an incentive to good management.
There will be a financial agreement working with the Scheme which will bring the support price system into operation. The need for the revision of the pre-war Scheme falls under the following reasons: first to give the Board power to implement the financial agreement, secondly to change in form, but not in principle, the system of acreage levy arrangements. In
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the pre-war Scheme there was a registered basic acreage. In the new Scheme there is to be a similar arrangement with basic acreage registered on the three years' production, 1951, 1952, and 1953.
The Board may prescribe annual quotas based on this basic acreage. Then the excess over that quota will be liable to a penalty of up to £10 an acre. This is a point on which there has been a good deal of discussion, and therefore I feel that I should mention it. In certain circumstances the Board will have the power to make free acreage increases in conditions where either for husbandry considerations or hardship it is considered necessary. An aggrieved producer who is made subject to this penalty has the right of appeal to arbitration, so he is safeguarded.
It is also necessary to provide for an extension of trading powers. In order to operate the new Scheme, it is necessary to have powers to fix a minimum sale price for growers, but not for resale price fixing. It is necessary that there should now be power to manufacture certain specified commodities from potatoes. Finally, it is necessary to give the Board power to provide services for its producers, but not to manufacture goods for production or marketing of potatoes. That is a point that came out rather strongly in the public inquiry.
There is the usual provision for the appointment of Minister's members up to a number of four and there is the safeguard requirement under the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1949, that the Board must inform the Minister of its intention to use its main marketing powers of price fixing, restriction of production or supplies, in order to ensure that they are used in the public interest. The procedure has been carried out according to the Marketing Acts. The promoters informed all registered producers of the proposals in the substitutional Scheme. There are over 100,000 registered producers and only 32 objections were received.
Sir Leslie Plummer: All Liberals.
Mr. Nugent: As the Act requires that unless 1,000 or more object, no poll is taken, no poll was made. A formal submission was made to my right hon. Friends, and a public inquiry was duly held and a report received on 23rd February this year. My right hon.

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Friends very carefully considered this Report and in the light of it they have put forward this Scheme modified from its original form in the form now before the House. I commend it to the House as being in every way sound and able to serve the interests both of producers and consumers.
9.40 p.m.
Mr. George Brown: Without committing myself to all the detailed provisions of it, which obviously we on this side of the House are not called upon to do, nevertheless I want to say how much we welcome this Scheme as being wholly in line and taken almost word for word from the provisions of our marketing document which the Minister earlier today described as one which would set up vast, Government-sponsored monopolies. He is now setting one up himself. It is one which we say he should have set up, and I am delighted to have the opportunity of congratulating him upon having been completely converted to our point of view within five hours. If the country comes along at the same rate, then by the end of three weeks we shall have made enormous progress.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) said, and so far as I can see, the only objectors seem to have been members of the Liberal Party or the Cheap Food League. I am very sorry that that means that we will not have all parties in the House behind the proposal for the orderly marketing of the potato crop and, therefore, the guarantee for our producers that they will not get into the difficulties which otherwise they might meet. I do not accept the provisions for paying what the Minister calls the guaranteed price—the support price—to the producers. I would have preferred the sort of scheme which we outlined earlier today, but the Minister is responsible for the details of this Scheme. I am not called upon to endorse them. I merely welcome the Minister's acceptance of Labour Party marketing policy.
9.42 p.m.
Mr. Archer Baldwin: I am sure that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary would have been disappointed if I had not registered my objection to this Scheme. If I had had any doubt a quarter of an hour ago
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whether or not my objection was a sound one, I should now be quite satisfied that I am on sound ground in view of the speech of welcome by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). I say at the outset that I am not speaking as a disgruntled grower. I have a small acreage which is registered, and therefore I have no personal interest in the Scheme.
My main objection is that a Scheme of this magnitude, dealing I suppose with 600,000 or 700,000 tons of potatoes a year, should be put through the House in this way. This is a document of 30 pages, and I am willing to bet that if anyone asked the first 100 farmers he met what they knew about the Scheme they would not have the foggiest idea what it means.
This Scheme should have been debated in this House as the original Scheme was debated in 1933. Then there was a three-hour debate at the end of which a vote was taken. I should like to refer to a speech by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Fife, East (Mr. Henderson Stewart). Although he welcomed that Scheme, he damned it with faint praise and made one or two points which farmers should bear in mind. He quoted the case of two farms side by side. One farmer was a potato grower and the other did not grow potatoes because he did not like the job. He gave up the farm and his successor was prevented from growing potatoes unless he was prepared to pay a penalty of £10 per acre per annum.
I know that is right because I asked my hon. Friend about it. I have looked through the Scheme to see whether any grower could take up the document and find out under which provision that penalty was imposed. I think that he would have some difficulty in finding it. Under the provision about registered producers it says that if a grower grows more than his registered acreage he should be penalised, but I cannot see where it is said that any outside farmer who wants to start growing potatoes is entitled to do so. I accept the statement of my hon. Friend that he is entitled to do it if he pays a penalty of £10 per acre per annum, but he would be an optimistic farmer who would be prepared to pay that sum of

1641
money year after year to grow potatoes. The Scheme should have been debated by the farmers of the country at meetings of the National Farmers' Union, just as the Apple and Pear Marketing Scheme was debated before it was put to the vote of the producers. I suggest that the promoters were nervous that if they made plain to farmers what it really contains this Scheme would have been served in the same way as the Apple and Pear Marketing Scheme.
I am satisfied that something should be done to stop huge gluts and low prices such as occurred before the war. But I am not in favour of compulsory schemes of this sort under which growers may be penalised if they do not do what they are supposed to do. I should like the Minister to say why this Scheme has not been debated in the House, and why it was not put to the producers to give them a chance of saying whether or not they approved it. I think I am speaking for the rank and file of the farmers when I say that they do not know where they are going. Soon they will be completely hamstrung by the various boards which are being set up.
The right hon. Member for Belper suggested that the grain market was not as it should be. I have no doubt that he would be in favour of a cereals marketing board. I suppose that under such a board farmers would be told what acreage of grain they should plant; how much wheat or barley they would be entitled to grow. The freedom of cropping which they secured in 1923 is being gradually whittled away.
Consider the case of a man who has a basic acreage of 10 acres and decides to grow potatoes in a 13-acre field. He is not entitled to plant more than 10 acres with potatoes and may have to use the remaining three acres for some other crop, thereby upsetting the rotation of the field. Such a procedure is not to the advantage of the farmers, and certainly not to the advantage of land cultivation generally. I feel that these schemes will result in such a "closed shop" mentality that we shall create inefficient producers. Farmers do not want to hear any more jibes that they are so inefficient that they need marketing boards to tell them what to do and how to do it.
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I wish to register my protest against this Scheme. This is what was said in 1933 by the present Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland—the hon. Member for Fife, East:
"Take two farms owned by one landlord. He occupies and farms one holding on which he has a large quantity of potatoes. The other he lets to a farmer who at the time of the Scheme coming into operation has no potatoes. The second farm is given up. The rent drops, because there is no chance of growing potatoes on it save by the payment of a penalty. Another holding, which may be put into the market in the same year, having by sheer luck a basic acreage, rises in rent 2s, or 5s."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th December, 1933; Vol. 284, c. 1253.]
In other words, this Scheme is depreciating the value of some farms and increasing the value of others, and I do not think that is fair. My hon. Friend also said:
"At the present time there are accepted among farmers certain rules of good husbandry—a certain rotation that must be followed, a certain method of keeping the land in good heart. This Scheme, which is going to penalise a man for ploughing up grass, may interfere with the rules of good husbandry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th December, 1933; Vol. 284, c. 1252.]
It would be well if all farmers in this country had the opportunity to read the debate.
I have registered my protest, and I can do no more. I know that this Scheme will be approved, but it will be a sorry day for the farmers of this country when they create machinery for the nationalisation of their industry. Hon. Members opposite are pledged to the nationalisation of the means of production and distribution. In this Scheme we are—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member is going very wide of the Question before the House.
9.50 p.m.
Mr. Clifford Kenyon: After the self-congratulatory speech of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on behalf of the Government, it was very interesting to listen to the cold douche poured upon the Government by the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin). Here we have a Scheme introducing rationing and control, and one which puts the farmer in a strait-jacket, and this after the remarkable speeches about freedom to which we have listened this afternoon.

1643
I wish to ask one or two questions about the Scheme with the object of getting further elucidation. In the first place, the farmer growing potatoes will be given a basic acreage which he will be permitted to cultivate. But if in any quota year he exceeds that basic acreage, he can be fined up to £10 for each acre cultivated in excess of his basic acreage, and in another year £5. If the farmer grows an excess of acreage, is that excess added to his basic acreage, and does it become the basic acreage for future years, as it did under the old marketing Act?
Secondly, can any farmer, under this Scheme, grow as much as he desires so long as he consumes the production on his own farm? Under the previous Scheme he could do so. Under paragraph 71 of the Draft Scheme, the Board can fix the terms and the prices under which potatoes are to be sold. If anyone breaks the provisions of this Scheme he can, according to paragraph 83, be brought before the Disciplinary Committee. Under sub-paragraph (2, a) that Committee will consist
"of not less than four nor more than six members of the Board and a chairman who is not a member of the Board … "
Here we have a court being set up—and I have raised this objection before—that is both prosecutor and judge. The Potato Board will lay down the terms and conditions under which potatoes are to be grown, and any producer who disobeys those terms and conditions may be brought before members of the Board and fined.
According to paragraph 83, the Board can
"recover from him such monetary penalty not exceeding two hundred pounds as that Committee think just,"
or, in the other case, the Committee can
"recover from him such monetary penalty not exceeding £100 or a sum representing £5 per acre of his potato acreage, whichever is the greater, as that Committee think just."
I feel that here, once again, we are contravening everything which hitherto we have understood as British justice.
If a person is to be fined for breaking the law as set out by this House, he should be brought before a properly constituted court. The prosecution should be made to state its case there and the farmer should be able to defend himself. Under this proposed system the prosecutor is the
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judge, and I feel that we are once again departing from what we have always stood for, namely, the right of the individual to be brought before a properly constituted court.
This is a restrictive Measure; a regulatory Measure and a control Measure. It is the exact opposite of everything which hon. Members opposite have ever stood for, judging by what they have said. They lay the blame for this sort of thing upon us, but here they are putting the proposal forward and only one objection has been raised by an hon. Member opposite, namely, the hon. Member for Leominster. The Minister boasts that he will set up an Egg Board. We shall be under boards of all descriptions, and the funny thing is that the farmers in general enjoy it, because they know that it is the basis of their prosperity.
9.56 p.m.
Mr. Nugent: I should like to make a very brief reply to the questions asked by the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon). The answer to his first question is "No." If there is a penalty paid for an acreage in excess of the basic acreage in any particular year, that will not then be added to the quota for that farm for the following year.
His second question was whether, in the case of the potatoes which are grown all being consumed on the farm, there was any restriction upon the acreage. The answer is that in that event the producer would not be registered and he could grow as many potatoes as he liked.
The hon. Member's third point referred to the Disciplinary Committee. The answer is that it is impossible to operate a marketing scheme without disciplinary measures. It is simply up to the producers to decide whether they wish to have such a scheme or not. They saw how this Board worked before the war and they believe that it is in their interests, and so they wish it to go forward. My belief is that this Board will serve the interests both of producers and consumers.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Draft Potato Marketing Scheme, 1955, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6th April, be approved.

PLOUGHING GRANTS SCHEMES
Draft Ploughing Grants Scheme, 1955 [copy presented, 19th April], approved.—[Mr. Nugent.]
Draft Agriculture (Ploughing Grants) (Scotland) Scheme, 1955 [copy presented, 19th April], approved.—[Mr. Snadden.]

SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Clevedon [copy presented, 28th April], approved.—[Sir H. Lucas-Tooth.]

B.B.C. MONITORING SERVICE (ECONOMIES)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. R. Thompson.]
9.58 p.m.
Sir Leslie Plummer: The issue I am bringing before the House tonight covers a much more narrow matter than that which we have been discussing this afternoon. Nevertheless it is of some importance. I understand that the Assistant Postmaster-General is going to reply on behalf of the Government. This is a retrograde step, because the Assistant Postmaster-General has no real knowledge of the subject. He is titularly responsible for the B.B.C., but the decisions which have been taken and which have led to my applying to you, Mr. Speaker, for the Adjournment tonight, did not come from his Department.
It is outrageous that neither the Foreign Office, which is intimately concerned with this subject, nor the Treasury, which has directed the cuts to be made, which I am tonight discussing, are to reply. It is not a good thing that merely because the Assistant Postmaster-General is proficient in making a very good argument out of a thoroughly bad case, as he has done for the last three and a half years, he should be here to deal with this situation tonight.
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. R. Thompson.]
Sir L. Plummer: Nevertheless, what I have to do is to accept the Assistant Postmaster-General as the replying authority.
Mr. Malcolm McCorquodale: On a point of order. I wonder if the House is aware that Mr. Deputy-Speaker has just been elected the Captain of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club. I am sure we would wish to join in congratulating him on this honour, because we are very pleased that it has been conferred upon him.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I thank the right hon. Gentleman and the House very much. I am not sure whether that is a point of order, but it is a point of great pleasure to me, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman and the House very much.
Sir L. Plummer: As it is a point of great pleasure to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I do not resent time being taken out of my speech to congratulate you.
A little while ago the Treasury decided, quite arbitrarily, that it would impose on the monitoring service of the Overseas Service of the B.B.C. a cut of £25,000 of its annual budget, reducing it from £450,000 to £425,000 a year, and the Treasury decided, after the cut had been imposed, that a working committee should be established to see how the cut could be best effected.
I ought to explain that the monitoring service of the Overseas Service of the B.B.C. consists of a vast network of listening posts which are, as it were, at once the eyes and the ears of this country, listening to radio all over the world. The constant and growing use of radio for political purposes internationally means that it is absolutely essential that we should know not only the words which are being uttered by foreign countries but the nuances they use in expressing their thoughts.
The necessity for such a monitoring service is well illustrated by a speech the late Herr Hitler once made, in which he used the German word "alsbald," which

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sent the chancelleries of the world into a flap to discover what on earth it meant, whether it meant that he was going to move immediately or whether he was going to move later, so that Foreign Secretaries throughout the world were unable to make a proper declaration of their views of the importance of Herr Hitler's speech. If they had had a good monitoring service, of competent people who understood what the word meant, they would not have been in that confusion.
Nor, indeed, had Mr. Neville Chamberlain had such a monitoring service, would there have been the confusion that was obvious in his mind when he announced in this House in 1940 that Herr Hitler had invaded Norway and that the German High Command had announced that the invasion had taken place at a place called Narvik, but that he was under the impression that that was a mistake and that the place was really Larvik. If the Foreign Office had had a competent monitoring system such as the B.B.C. has today, such an absurd mistake could not have been made.
The monitoring service is staffed by men who have an intimate knowledge of the languages to which they listen. Moreover, they have an understanding and appreciation of the political purposes behind the broadcasts, and they have an understanding of news values, and the ability to write proper reports. They are directed in their activities by the Service Departments and the Foreign Office, whose representatives sit with the Director of the Overseas Service of the B.B.C, and say exactly what is required. The monitors, as they are called, cannot be trained overnight. They have to be men who have been around, who understand that their job is not simply to be translators but to be interpreters in the most complex sense of the word.
The Treasury has decided that this staff is to be reduced, because when it imposed this £25,000 cut it imposed it on the number of men employed, for of the £450,000 that was to be spent more than £350,000 was for wages and salaries. And so some 15 monitors, highly trained men, devoted men, some of them naturalised British citizens, in whom the Overseas Service had invested a considerable sum of money, have been declared redundant and have had to leave the service of the B.B.C. It is an odd thing
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that the Government, who are giving £6 million today in Purchase Tax cuts and on behalf of their Election campaign, have imposed so paltry a cut on so important a service—and one which is shared with the United States.
The Americans pay equally as much attention to the importance of monitoring as we do. Indeed, they have set up a monitoring service in Cyprus. There is an arrangement which hitherto has worked extremely well. The United States listen to one part of the world and we listen to another part of the world. That part which is most easily listened to from here, we cover.
Up to now there has been a complete interchange of information. It was a part of our N.A.T.O. contribution, just as the armies, navies, air forces and anything else which we put into N.A.T.O. are. Now, without any discussion with the U.S.A., we have seen fit to impose this cut on the B.B.C. so that the service which it now supplies to the United States is an inferior one. Indeed, the situation today, with all the confusion, upsets and tensions which there are in Cyprus, is that we have now to rely on the Americans for information on broadcasts from some of the Iron Curtain countries and we have to do that through a monitoring station on British territory—in Cyprus.
The Americans are entitled to say on this, "Are you serious about your contribution to the cold war?" Are we really serious in our efforts to find out what is going on all over the world when, without any real reason and without any real necessity, we cut the service in the way I have described?
Under the Chairmanship of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson), I was a member of the Select Committee that investigated the Overseas Service of the B.B.C. The hon. Member whisked us down to Caversham, in Berkshire, where the monitoring service of the B.B.C. hangs out, and then dragged us to Bush House, where we investigated the headquarters organisation.
We produced for the Ninth Report of the Select Committee on Estimates for 1951–52 certain recommendations about the importance of monitoring. I think that the hon. Member himself was responsible for that part of that Report which recommended that there should be a long-term investment in this most essential service.

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It is true that in that Report we argued that maybe there were possibilities of economy in the monitoring of services from friendly countries. I have no doubt? that the argument could be put by the Treasury that it is possible to cut some part of the service to those countries, but the situation has changed considerably since 1951–52 when that Report was issued.
We have had the turmoil of German rearmament, the tense situation in the Far East, the Indo-China war and periods when Anglo-American relations have not been as smooth and as happy as we would wish. We have had developments in N.A.T.O. All these things have also been in the picture since that Report was written, and they indicate the vital importance of maintaining this service.
The B.B.C. does not organise its monitoring service in a vacuum. It does not say, "We are now going to listen to various countries because we like doing so." It does so because the Service Departments want it to do so. We are told that a Departmental Committee meets—I think it is under a Foreign Office chairman—and decides what countries should be listened to. That committee's views are forcibly expressed by the Service Department's representatives. As a result of this decision, listening posts for Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Germany, Persia, Poland and Israel have been cut. It is unthinkable that at this stage, when the whole of international relations are going through a new phase, this country should be denied, for the sake of £25,000 a year, the facilities which it had before of listening to the views of the Iron Curtain countries.
I cannot think what the explanation is, unless it is that the Treasury does not understand what monitoring is about and has no sympathy with it, and that the Chancellor has been able to impose his will and determination to cut this service without the Assistant Postmaster-General and his colleagues being able to resist him. Just as those of us who were on the Select Committee were satisfied that the staff of the B.B.C. Overseas Service doing the monitoring work was doing a good job, and paid a tribute to it, I am satisfied that the staff has responded magnificently to the new burden put upon it as a result of this cut. They are devoted people and want to see that the
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monitoring service, hampered as it is by this cut, remains a great service.
The staff and the radio branch of the National Union of Journalists, which represents these men, have co-operated to a very considerable degree with the B.B.C. in trying to make the effects of the cuts as harmonious as possible. But let us not deny the fact that the service is not as good as it was. Trained monitors have now left the service of the B.B.C. and will not return to the B.B.C. We have robbed ourselves of this weapon in our armour, we have dispensed with people who had considerable sums of money invested in them, we have weakened the service which was the admiration of those countries receiving it, particularly the United States, and all for a saving of £25,000, which brings into contempt the arguments we put up that we will make our maximum contribution to the N.A.T.O. pool.
It is not too late, if the Assistant Postmaster-General has any influence left with his dying Government, to put up a protest and to argue that we should at least not give the impression to the United States that we are so poor that we cannot afford to do this job properly.
10.14 p.m.
The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans): The hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) has used two arguments in this Adjournment debate. He has suggested that the economies which have been made in the monitoring service are unreasonable economies which are doing harm to the general welfare of this country. Secondly, he suggested that, as a result of these economies, the Americans would doubt whether we were serious in our prosecution of the cold war. I hope to be able to reassure him on both points.
If I understood aright, the hon. Member said that monitoring service is part of the N.A.T.O. commitment of this country. I can assure him that it is nothing of the sort. We have an arrangement with the Americans, but it is not part of our N.A.T.O. commitment. As the hon. Member pointed out, whilst I have responsibility for this debate because the expenditure is carried on the broadcasting Vote, in fact other Government Departments come into the picture as well. The responsibility for

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operating the monitoring service rests on the B.B.C which acts with the advice of the Foreign Office and other Government Departments. The B.B.C. does this under Clause 15 (5) of the licence which calls on the Corporation to perform a monitoring service on lines prescribed by Government Departments after consultation with the Corporation itself.
The monitoring service is done for two quite specific purposes, which the hon. Gentleman did not differentiate between. The first is that the B.B.C. itself wants to get background information and news from foreign broadcasts to enable it to prepare its broadcasts both for home and overseas. The second reason for the monitoring service is to enable the B.B.C. to supply Departments of State and other organisations like the Press and the universities with a summary of what is being said over the air. It is inevitable, with the world in the condition in which it is today and when we have to face the rigours of a cold war, that it is right and reasonable that we should know what is being said over the air which may be of vital concern to us. We are also naturally interested in the general international relations in most parts of the world. To give a concrete example, there is the question of broadcasts to Cyprus from Greece, which was recently raised in this House.
The cost of the monitoring service is not borne by the B.B.C. from funds allocated by Parliament for broadcasts here at home, but there is a special grant-in-aid carried on the broadcasting vote for all the external services which the B.B.C. does, including monitoring, although from the Estimates point of view the cost of the monitoring is borne separately.
What we are discussing tonight is not the general overseas services of the B.B.C. but the monitoring service, and as the hon. Gentleman has said quite rightly, there has been a cut of £25,000 out of a total grant of £460,000 which will be made for that purpose to the B.B.C. in 1955–56. The hon. Gentleman feels that if that cut of £25,000 is made, two things may well happen. He fears that the B.B.C. will not be able to do all the monitoring which he would regard as necessary, and his second fear is that the arrangement which we have with the Americans for the
1652
exchange of information with them may suffer.
It is true that there has been this cut. It has meant a reduction of 26 monitors out of a total staff of 154. Incidentally, of the 26 people whose services have been terminated by the B.B.C, 11 have been found other jobs in the B.B.C. and the balance have been dismissed in accordance with the terms of their contracts.
I will try to explain how and why this cut has been made. But first of all, let me point out the way in which the cost of the monitoring service has gone up over recent years. In 1948–49, for example, the cost was only £281,000. In 1952 it had risen to £436,000, and last year it went up to £455,000. There is a small revenue on the other side of the balance sheet which comes to the B.B.C. from the sale of their broadcasts to the universities and to the Press, but it is infinitesimal. For some time past the Treasury has been concerned at these rising costs and, as the hon. Gentleman quite rightly said, in the Ninth Report of the Select Committee on Estimates in 1951–52, of which he was a member, it was suggested that there might be a possibility of making economies in the broadcasts to friendly countries. He is quite right about that.
In 1954, because of these rising costs, the Treasury arranged for the position to be further reviewed, and as a result a working party of officials was set up, consisting of members from the Treasury, the Foreign Office, the B.B.C, and the Ministry of Defence, with a Post Office official in the chair.
Sir L. Plummer: After the cuts had been made?
Mr. Gammans: No; I will come to that.
This working party examined the scope of monitoring in all its aspects, and it was suggested by the Treasury—and this is where I think the hon. Gentleman was slightly wrong—that the total amount for the service for 1955–56 might be cut by £25,000 out of the total estimate of £460,000. The working party satisfied itself that this cut could be made without impairing the service which the B.B.C. want for themselves or which the country generally needs in the international field.

1653
They examined this matter very carefully, met on five occasions and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that they considered this question in all its aspects. For reasons which I am sure the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, I would prefer not to state publicly the countries whose monitoring has been curtailed. In fact, the whole operation is not so much a question of cutting out monitoring from certain countries, but one of restricting the amount of monitoring that is being done.
The hon. Gentleman gave certain information with regard to certain countries which he thought were affected. I do not know where he got his information from, but, whether it is correct or not, it is highly confidential, and I am not prepared either to agree or disagree with what he has to say. I am not prepared, for very obvious reasons, to say which countries are affected by this cut in monitoring, but, as I have already said, it is restricting the amount of monitoring rather than cutting out monitoring altogether.
Mr. George Darling: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how we can restrict the amount of monitoring without interfering with the service? Obviously, one has to listen to a whole series of broadcasts in order to understand what they are about.
Mr. Gammans: That is another question which, again for obvious reasons, I prefer not to discuss. I think that those who wish us ill would be very interested in what we are doing, and the last thing which I ought to do is to inform the House how it is being done.
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would be the very last to say that more money should be spent on a service of this kind than is really necessary. I am grateful to him for having brought up this question, and I am only sorry that, on one or two points, I cannot be more specific than I have been. I hope he will accept my assurance that there is nothing sinister in these cuts, and, what is more, that in these cuts we are working in the closest possible collaboration with our American allies.
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government attach the greatest importance to the monitoring service, and that had it been merely a matter of cutting
1654
£25,000 and impairing the service to the extent which the hon. Gentleman led the House to believe it would, they certainly would not have done it, because they attach far too much importance to it. We are satisfied that this cut can be made and that this economy is justified, without in any way impairing the value and quality of the monitoring service.
10.24 p.m.
Mr. George Darling: This is a most unsatisfactory reply. I think I must follow the Assistant Postmaster-General in not naming the countries that have been cut off from the listening side of the monitoring service, although I thought they were more or less common knowledge. I will merely say that the alternative service coming from the American station in Cyprus is not only admitted by the Americans to be inferior, because they are not doing the monitoring in the same kind of way, but surely also involves us in expense. The information that is now needed by the monitoring service which comes through Cyprus has to be paid for in the form of cable charges, and the net saving to the Treasury is certainly not £25,000.
We are getting an inferior service, we are spending money in a way in which it ought not to be spent, and the Americans are certainly dissatisfied with this arrangement. Whether or not we have to keep the names of the countries concerned secret, there is no secrecy about that. At least, it is well known inside the Press and to broadcasting people concerned with this matter that the Americans are not satisfied with this arrangement. They would much have preferred the original arrangement to continue.
Mr. Gammans: Will the hon. Member give the source from which he got his information? How does he know that people are not satisfied? Is he talking from knowledge given to him inside the broadcasting service?
Mr. Darling: I would be willing to discuss where the information comes from if we could have a proper debate, name the countries concerned, and go through the whole thing in proper detail, but the embargo which is placed upon us in this matter makes it very difficult for me to give information, just as the Assistant Postmaster-General himself is refusing information.

1655
A further point that I want to make in the two minutes that remain concerns the staff. Because of the countries which have been cut off and the language associations of these people, some of the best people employed in the monitoring service have had to be dispensed with, either from the monitoring service to some other part of the B.B.C. or dismissed altogether. It is difficult to replace them, and the countries with which they were concerned are vital countries in the matter of the cold war. It is essential that we should have the fullest information of what is going on in those countries. Now, as a result of the cuts, we do not have that information.
The remainder of the staff in the monitoring service are working under a sense of great insecurity. There is talk—everybody knows how these rumours spread—
1656
that further cuts are contemplated. If we are wrong in this, it would be desirable for the Assistant Postmaster-General to say that no further cuts are to be made. Because of the insecurity that exists, monitors who are engaged in listening to the countries which are not so far affected are already leaving.
If the hon. Gentleman could give an assurance that no cuts will be made, that would be most helpful, although we much regret, for quite a number of reasons which have not been fully developed in this short debate, the cuts that have been made and the economies that have resulted in staff dismissals.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Clean Air Bill
  Clean Air Bill
  Rural Sewerage and Water Supply Schemes
  Rural Sewerage and Water Supply Schemes
HOUSING
  Stockport
  Stockport
  Huntingdonshire
  Huntingdonshire
EMPLOYMENT
  Stockport
  Stockport
  Factory Safety Committees
  Factory Safety Committees
NATIONAL SERVICE (PERSONAL CASE)
  NATIONAL SERVICE (PERSONAL CASE)
  NATIONAL SERVICE (PERSONAL CASE)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Government Offices, Lincoln and Kendal
  Government Offices, Lincoln and Kendal
BRITISH ARMY
  Mess Dress
  Mess Dress
  Building Workers (Employment)
  Building Workers (Employment)
  Grooms
  Grooms
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Empire Theatre, Dewsbury
  Empire Theatre, Dewsbury
  Direct and Indirect Taxation
  Direct and Indirect Taxation
  Boxing (Tax Receipts)
  Boxing (Tax Receipts)
COAL SUPPLIES, LINCOLN
  COAL SUPPLIES, LINCOLN
  COAL SUPPLIES, LINCOLN
SIERRA LEONE (FOURAH BAY COLLEGE)
  SIERRA LEONE (FOURAH BAY COLLEGE)
  SIERRA LEONE (FOURAH BAY COLLEGE)
NIGERIA (AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT INQUIRY)
  NIGERIA (AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT INQUIRY)
  NIGERIA (AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT INQUIRY)
COLONIAL PRISONERS (ANKLE IRONS)
  COLONIAL PRISONERS (ANKLE IRONS)
  COLONIAL PRISONERS (ANKLE IRONS)
NYERI SUPREME COURT JUDGMENT (MURIU WAMAI)
  NYERI SUPREME COURT JUDGMENT (MURIU WAMAI)
  NYERI SUPREME COURT JUDGMENT (MURIU WAMAI)
EDUCATION
  School Building (Circulars)
  School Building (Circulars)
  Cathays High School, Cardiff
  Cathays High School, Cardiff
  School Places, Huntingdonshire
  School Places, Huntingdonshire
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Hospital Pharmacists (Salaries)
  Hospital Pharmacists (Salaries)
  Dentures, Spectacles and Prescriptions (Cost)
  Dentures, Spectacles and Prescriptions (Cost)
AUSTRIAN STATE TREATY
  AUSTRIAN STATE TREATY
  AUSTRIAN STATE TREATY
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Obscene Publications
  Obscene Publications
  General Election (Returning Officers)
  General Election (Returning Officers)
EDUCATION, SCOTLAND
  Classes
  Classes
  School Places
  School Places
  Building Works (Value)
  Building Works (Value)
  Technical Education (Building Expenditure)
  Technical Education (Building Expenditure)
  Pupil-Teacher Ratio
  Pupil-Teacher Ratio
CLOTHING INDUSTRY
  CLOTHING INDUSTRY
  CLOTHING INDUSTRY
GRIMSBY TRAWLER (LOSS)
  GRIMSBY TRAWLER (LOSS)
  GRIMSBY TRAWLER (LOSS)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  SANDOWN-SHANKLIN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL
  2.35 p.m.
  Read 2a, and committed.

  NUNEATON CORPORATION BILL
  Read 2a.
  CHESHUNT URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL
  Read 2a.
  MERSEY TUNNEL BILL
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, there is nothing unusual in this Order to which I need draw your Lordships' attention. Accordingly, I beg to move that it be approved.
  Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Clevedon, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE (No. 2) BILL
  Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.
  FINANCE BILL
  Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

  PUBLIC LIBRARIES (SCOTLAND) BILL
  2.38 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, this is another of those Bills, of which your Lordships have been fortunate to have a number lately, which I think command the support of all Parties, and it passed through another place without a Division. That is a tribute to the skill of Sir William Darling, the Member of Parliament who piloted it through another place, but it is also, I think, a measure of the merits of the Bill, because the need for it is widely recognised. It is something like a hundred years since, by the Act of 1854, the State took the first tentative steps to provide a public library service. There has been little change since then. That is a tribute to the pioneers and to the sound lines on which they proceeded. But, inevitably, there are one or two places where the Victorian shoe pinches, and certain modern adjustments are required.
  The Bill has two main purposes. Until now, local authorities have been subject to a limitation of a 3d. rate: they have not been able to levy a rate of more than 3d. for this service. That limit the Bill removes. The cost of books, the cost of bookbinding and costs generally have risen in the last twenty years or so, with the result that local authorities have found it impossible to provide an efficient service with this rate limitation. Indeed, quite a number of the local authorities have been compelled to promote Local Acts in order to contract out of this very inconvenient limitation. Therefore, it seemed to the Secretary of State, and to all of us that it was a common-sense thing to get rid of it for all local authorities, particularly since there is no corresponding restraint on library authorities in England.
  Secondly, the Bill empowers local authorities to co-operate among themselves in the exchange of books and for the support of the central library services—the Scottish Central Library is there to act as a clearing house for inter-library lending. Under the nineteenth century legislation which I have just mentioned,

  695
  no powers have been available to library authorities to enable them to lend to each other the more rare and important books. Local authorities have long wanted these powers. There have been disputes from time to time as to the actual conditions, but I am glad to say that the proposals in the Bill as it is drafted and put forward to your Lordships command the support of the three local authority associations in Scotland.
  My Lords, I am glad that we in this Parliament are able to complete this legislation, and I hope your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading. Not only is it necessary; it is also opportune. Your Lordships will remember the great part which the late Andrew Carnegie played in originating and largely sustaining the library services in Scotland: he was an extraordinarily generous and farsighted benefactor. Up till now much of the finance has been supplied by the Carnegie Trust, but they say that they cannot continue to do that after this year. If this Bill is passed the finance for the Scottish Central Library will be provided partly from Treasury grant, with, in addition, a grant from local authorities arrived at according to a formula on which they are all agreed. As we have a large measure of agreement, and as I believe that everybody in Scotland feels that this is a modest advance which should be made, in order to bring our library services up to modern conditions, I commend this Bill to your Lordships for Second Reading.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Home.)
  2.42 p.m.
  LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, from these Benches I should like to add a word of commendation of this Bill. I can say from personal experience that it ends years of agitation on the part of library associations for the abolition of the rate limitation. The Bill implements one or two recommendations contained in a report on libraries issued some time ago by the Scottish Advisory Council on Education. It extends to town and county councils the powers which other authorities
  696
  already possess by virtue of the fact that they have promoted private legislation, either on their own behalf or through other channels. In this particular regard the Bill satisfies the views of municipal associations. I think it will mark a great advance in library activities in Scotland, and I have much pleasure in supporting it.
  2.45 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords we are told that this Bill was originally piloted by Sir William Darling, whom we may see though not hear. We have had the Second Reading proposed by a Scotsman. We have had the Question, That the Bill be now read a second time, put by another Scotsman, and we have had the Bill supported from these Benches by still another Scotsman. I find myself asking, in these circumstances, what should an Englishman do? I feel quite certain that all of us who are English will say we should do everything we can to increase the educational facilities of the Scots. We should remember what Dr. Johnson said:
  "Much may be made of a Scotchman if he be caught young."
  In these circumstances, from this side of the House and on behalf of all Englishmen in all quarters of the House, we cordially welcome this Bill.
  THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Earl. We in Scotland have sometimes been accused of retarding education and civilisation for something like 300 years; perhaps had we known what it was going to be like we should have retarded it for a good deal longer. But we here are in harmony on this Bill and I am grateful to your Lordships. The noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, asked whether a library authority which felt that the public would get a better service if it surrendered its authority to a local education committee could take that step. The answer is that under this Bill a library authority can do so if it feels that in that way the public will have a better service.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  OIL IN NAVIGABLE WATERS BILL [H.L.]
  2.48 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
  THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be, now considered.
  Moved, that the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [The references are to Bill [53] as first printed for the House of Commons]
  Cause 3, page 4, line 40, leave out from ("and") to end of line 42 and insert ("'occupier,' in relation to any such thing as is mentioned in the preceding provisions of this subsection, if it has no occupier, means the owner thereof and, in relation to a railway wagon or road vehicle, means the person in charge of the wagon or vehicle and not the occupier of the land on which the wagon or vehicle stands.")
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, among other things this clause deals with the liability of occupiers of land in respect of the discharge of oil into water. The Amendment defines rather more closely the meaning of "occupier of a place on land." Where it is not possible to define "occupier" the liability falls on, the owner; and in respect of a vehicle, whether a railway vehicle or a road vehicle, the liability falls on the person in charge of that vehicle rather than the occupier of the land. I feel that this is a useful clarification. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 4, page 6, line 40, at end insert—
  ("(7) The last preceding subsection shall apply to the exercise of any power conferred by section thirteen of the Dockyard Ports Regulation Act, 1865 (which relates to the removal of obstructions to dockyard ports), as it applies to the exercise of any such power as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of that subsection, as if references to the authority exercising the power were references to the Queen's harbour master for the port in question.")
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords the liability placed by Clause 1 is an absolute liability, and accordingly Clause 4 deals with certain special defences. It deals, amongst other things, with authorities responsible for removing wrecks. These defences are of no avail, however, if it is shown that these authorities have failed to take such steps as were reasonable in the circumstances for stopping or reducing the discharge. The Amendment makes these defences available to anyone exercising the powers conferred by Section 13 of the Dockyard Ports Regulation Act, 1865. These particularly include the Queen's harbour master who in this respect has certain duties to perform not so far covered by the special defences. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  Clause 8, page 9, line 27, leave out from ("facilities") to end of line 29.
  Page 10, line 40, at end insert—
  ("(9) As respects any harbour in the United Kingdom, subsections (1), (2), (5) and (8) of this section shall have effect in relation to arrangements for disposing of oil residues discharged or deposited by vessels using the harbour's oil reception facilities, and to the making of such arrangements, as those subsections have effect in relation to oil reception facilities and the provision of such facilities.")
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: As the first and third Amendments on Clause 8 fall together and are not much more than clarification I will take them together, if I may. The clause as drafted already gives harbour authorities power to make arrangements for the disposal of oil residue. It also gives the Minister power to order them to make such arrangements. It is not only necessary to have facilities for ships to dispose of their oil residues, but also subsequently to dispose of this oil residue itself. These Amendments make it quite clear that the harbour authorities have such power, and that the Minister may direct them to provide arrangements for disposal of this oil residue, just as he can also give directions for the provision of facilities. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in these Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 8, page 10, line 26, leave out ("a") and insert ("an effective").
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment makes it clear that the harbour authority is not required to receive untreated oily water unless it has been subjected not only to separation treatment but to effective treatment. I think this Amendment makes the matter quite clear, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 9, page 11, line 22, leave out ("fifty") and insert ("one hundred")
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this clause continues previous legislation which makes it necessary to inform the harbour master when oil is transferred at night. The Amendment increases the fine for failing to do so from £50 to £100. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 10, page 11, line 42, leave out ("one") and insert ("two").
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this clause deals with the duty to inform the harbour authority of discharges of oil from ships—discharges which may be legitimate under the Bill—or of the escape of oil from a place on land. The fine here is increased from £100 to £200. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 12, page 13, line 46, leave out from ("for") to end of line 48 and insert ("any such offence as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection.")
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment has resulted from discussions with the River Boards' Association. The clause deals with prosecutions. Under the Bill as printed, the Minister, or a person authorised by him, may prosecute in respect of a discharge of oil from a ship. This Amendment extends this power and enables the prosecution to be instituted by the Minister or person authorised by him in respect of discharges either from a ship or from a place on land. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  Clause 12, page 13, line 48, after the words last inserted insert—
  ("(2) The provisions of this subsection shall have effect as respects dockyard ports (within the meaning of the Dockyard Ports Regulation Act, 1865), that is to say—

  (a) in relation to so much of a dockyard port as is comprised in a harbour in the United Kingdom, the preceding subsection shall apply as if the reference to the harbour authority included a reference to the Queen's harbour master for the port, and

  (b) in relation to any part of a dockyard port which is not comprised in a harbour in the United Kingdom, the preceding subsection shall apply as if references to such a harbour included references to a dockyard port, and the reference to the harbour authority were a reference to the Queen's harbour master for the port.")

  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this clause deals with prosecutions in England and Wales. The definition of "harbour authority" in the Bill as drafted is not wide enough to include the Queen's harbour master in dockyard ports. It is clearly necessary that such a person should be included. The effect of the Amendment is to put the Queen's harbour master in the same position as the harbour authority in regard to instituting prosecutions for offences committed within his harbour. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENT
  After Cause 18, insert the following new clause—
  Annal report
  (". The Minister shall, as soon as possible after the end of each calendar year, make a report on the exercise and performance of his functions under this Act during that year, which shall include such observations as he may think fit to make on the operation during that year of this Act, of the Convention of 1954 and of any subsequent Convention, and he shall lay a copy of every such report before each House of Parliament.")
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this is a new clause which requires the Minister to make an annual report of the progress made under this Bill. I suppose it is true to say that there seems to be no end to the making of reports, but none the less this is one way of giving Parliament an opportunity of seeing from a practical point of view what progress has been made in this important subject. In moving this Amendment perhaps I might say one thing. It is rather less than twelve months since the International Conference in London finished its work, so I think we have lost very little time in putting into effect the conclusions of that Conference. In doing so we have given a lead to the whole world in this sphere, and I think I am correct in saying that the action taken by Parliament in this country has been widely reported in many other parts of the world.
  I can tell your Lordships that as soon as the Royal Assent is signified to this Bill it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to accept the International Convention. It will not come fully into force, however, until nine other countries, of which four must have tanker tonnage of at least 500,000 tons, have also accepted the obligations of this Convention. As I said, on the Second Reading, twenty countries have already signed the Convention, subject to acceptance, and we look forward eagerly to seeing the extent to which they are able to accept their obligations. I am sure the House is very glad that it is possible for this measure, upon which we are all agreed, to be passed in this foreshortened Parliament.
  702
  I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES (TRAVEL CONCESSIONS) BILL
  2.56 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, this Bill started life as a Private Member's Bill and now, after various changes and vicissitudes, it has been adopted by Her Majesty's Government. The actual occasion for the bringing in of the Bill by Mr. Short was a judgment in the Court of Chancery in the case of Prescott v. The Corporation of Birmingham. The Corporation introduced into their bus services concessionary fares for aged people, and Mr. Prescott, a ratepayer, challenged the legal right of the Corporation to do this. The Court upheld his contention, and that judgment was, in turn, upheld in the Court of Appeal.
  This decision led to immediate repercussions, because various other local authorities all over the country had been giving various other kinds of concessionary fares on their buses, trams and trolleybuses. Some ninety-six local authorities operating their own vehicles, allow cheap fares to children; ninety allow them to the blind; fifty-nine allow them to the disabled, and twenty-eight allow them to the aged. The statutory authority for this concession is nebulous or non-existent. For instance, the children's concession is believed to derive from ancient railway legislation via the tramway age. There are a few authorities who have specific legislative authority in the matter. On the other hand, so far as we know, there are no local authorities that have specific legislative backing for the other concessionary fares, though there is a possibility that schemes under the National Assistance Act, 1948, might cover the blind and the disabled. So, as the result of this judgment, virtually all concessionary fares are in jeopardy, and some authorities have already started to prepare Private Bill legislation.

  703
  It was in these circumstances that Mr. Short brought forward his Private Member's Bill to cover this situation, though at the same time he inserted various clauses dealing with totally different matters. Her Majesty's Government thought that in so far as it protected those in receipt of concessionary fares which had been put into jeopardy the Bill fulfilled a public purpose, and they were prepared to adopt those portions of the Bill which dealt with this particular aspect. In addition to the omission of some parts of the Private Member's Bill, some redrafting and rearranging was necessary, and this was sponsored by the Government.
  The Bill which I now submit to your Lordships for a Second Reading legalises the giving of concessionary fares to the aged, to children, to students, to the blind and disabled and to members of local authorities engaged in the performance of their statutory duties; but it authorises concessions only where they were already being given in the year 1954 up to November 30, which was the date of the judgment in Prescott v. Birmingham Corporation. I emphasise the fact that the Bill legalises the status quo, but it does not authorise local authorities which are not now giving these concessions to do so. If they want to do so, they have the usual course open to them: that of consulting their ratepayers and promoting Private Bills. If there is any dispute about whether or not a concession given is truly a concession under this Bill, the matter is to be settled by the licensing authority. That carries us in the Bill up to subsection (3) of Clause 1.
  Subsection (4) of Clause 1 allows local authorities to pay for concessions granted on vehicles operated in their areas by neighbouring local authorities. Subsection (5) allows the general rate fund to be used for paying for these concessions. Subsection (6) covers the case of joint undertakings. Subsection (7) takes jurisdiction over concessions to these particular persons out of the hands of the licensing authorities. Subsection (8) is an indemnity clause. Clause 2 provides that expenditure of this nature will be out of purely local funds and will not attract Government grant. Clause 3 is an interpretation clause, Clause 4 applies the Bill to Scotland, and Clause 5 provides that it shall not apply to
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  Northern Ireland. In the Schedule is set out the procedure for getting a certificate from local authorities that a concession in operation is one duly covered by the Bill. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hawke.)
  3.3 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Lords, as the noble Lord who introduced this Bill has rightly said, it started life with an honourable Member of another place as father; and before I make any comment on the Bill itself, I think it would be without impropriety if I said that there are thousands and thousands of people in this country who will be grateful to that honourable Member for producing this Bill for legalising the concessionary fares that have been granted by many municipalities to the classes of people mentioned by the noble Lord. But the Bill as it now reaches your Lordships' House is somewhat different from the Bill produced in another place. I think the Bill and the history of the Bill provide a good example of the peculiar method by which Her Majesty's Government have dealt with various pieces of legislation. It is a case of Mr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.
  When this Bill was introduced in another place it had three clauses of substance. The first clause gave the right to municipalities to run contract carriages. When I tell your Lordships that this Bill was in its first stages in another place at precisely the same time as the Road Traffic Bill was going through your Lordships' House, you will see that the situation was quite Gilbertian. In one Bill—this Bill—in another place, the Government strenuously opposed the right of local authorities who operated a transport service to use it to the best possible and most economic advantage by running contract carriages, while in your Lordships' House the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, produced a Bill which opened the doors of contract carriage operation wide to everybody in the country with the exception of the municipalities. If that is not a contradiction in terms, I do not know what is. It is a sample of the slipshod legislation to be seen in one or two Bills which I could name—but I

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  will not detain your Lordships by naming them—which Her Majesty's Government have tried to foist upon an unsuspecting populace.
  The arguments that were advanced by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport in another place against granting to municipalities who were operating transport services the right to run contract carriages was based upon the view that these wicked municipalities who had access to rate funds might subsidise the rate of hire of contract carriages in order to cut out private enterprise. I think most of your Lordships know that in many towns in this country private enterprise, and not the municipalities, runs the bus services. British Electric Traction, the biggest private enterprise bus service in the country, runs the bus services in exactly the same way as they would be run by municipalities, but it also has the right to run contract carriages. I do not think it was argued by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, but it has been argued, that one of the reasons why contract carriages should be curtailed on the one hand is the impact which they might make on the stage carriage services of this country. In other words, if the stage service contractor has to run unremunerative services, he wants contract carriage business to put a little butter on the ever-drying piece of bread. That was the argument of the Parliamentary Secretary in another place: that we could not increase competition by allowing municipalities to make the most economic use of their bus services, although we know that all bus service operators, including municipalities must have perhaps 60 per cent. of their fleets idle during the off-peak hours in order to give a proper and adequate service in peak hours.
  But the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, when he introduced the Road Traffic Bill, by Clauses 20 and 21 opened the door wide to private enterprise to run contract carriages to their hearts' content, without any licensing and without any restriction. According to the clause in the Road Traffic Bill—a Bill which went through your Lordships' House with more opposition than any Bill has suffered for quite a long time, and then died a well deserved death half way between this House and another place—no concerns need have a licence to run a contract carriage service, but could run a contract carriage service
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  to their hearts' content; their fares were not to be regulated by the licensing authority, and they need not have a public road service. That applied to all, except, of course, a municipality, and that, as I say, was prohibited because of the peculiar argument that was put up in another place. So—I hope the noble Earl will forgive me if I use the only expression that comes to my mind—a little accommodation, a little blackmail or bribery, call it what you will, was quite legitimately enacted. That clause had to be dropped by the promoter of the Bill in another place in order to ensure that Clause 3 survived. Perhaps in the not too distant future there may be an opportunity to have that matter put right.
  I think it is a scandalous thing that when the Government have always argued that competition is the breath of enterprise, the only people in the public transport world they should seek to restrict are municipal people. Why should a municipality be prohibited from using its transport to the best advantage, so saving its ratepayers money, as opposed to allowing the British Electric Traction to run their service to the best advantage for the benefit of their shareholders? I expect the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, could ride me off quite successfully by saying that I am now discussing something that is not in the Bill.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Hear, hear!
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The noble Earl says "Hear, hear!", but on Second Reading one is allowed to discuss all those things that one thinks should be in the Bill and were in the Bill when it was originally introduced. Therefore, although I am not within the approbation of the noble Earl, I am at least within the rules of order of your Lordships' House. I expect that the question I have asked is beyond even the ingenuity of the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, to answer.
  The second clause that was in the Bill originally has also gone the way of all flesh. When we seek to follow the excellent example of the Government to "set the people free," we are frustrated. The second clause that was in the Bill originally was a clause to free the British Transport Commission, the taxpayers' own concern, from the prohibition to run contract carriage services. The nice distinction between a concern that is owned by

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  the taxpayers and one owned by the ratepayers was not observed, and that had to be taken out of the Bill in order to save Clause 3. Perhaps the grounds why the Government opposed that clause are more humorous than the others. The only excuse that the Parliamentary Secretary in another place could find was that the Government did not think it right that a major Act of Parliament, such as the Transport Act, 1953, should be amended by a Private Member's Bill. That, I suppose, was as good an excuse as any other at the time.
  Then we come to Clause 3. As originally in the Bill, Clause 3 gave all municipalities who were operating transport services the right to give concessionary fares. As the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has said, there were about ninety-six or ninety-seven who were giving concessionary fares to the blind, to the aged, to schoolchildren and to other folk, and in a test case in the courts that was held to be ultra vires. The promoter of the Bill in another place, Mr. Short, the honourable Member for one of the divisions of Newcastle on Tyne, sought to give all municipalities permissive powers to give these concessionary fares if they so desired. But that was far too much for the Government, and they whittled it down to the ninety-six or ninety-seven who had given them before the introduction of the Bill in another place—which, if my memory serves me, was November 15 last year—and any other municipality who wished to give concessionary fares on the same grounds would have to promote a Private Member's Bill. I can only think that that was done to safeguard the last bastion of private enterprise—the legal profession.
  That is the history of this Bill: it is really a modified form of one clause of the Bill introduced in another place. But as it is, it is good; and we on this side of the House are going to give the Bill a Second Reading and facilitate its passage through this House before Parliament is dissolved at the end of this week. We think it is a valuable Bill and it may make a considerable contribution to the aged. I do not know what some of your Lordships will do, but in ninety-seven municipalities in this country, after this Bill becomes law, you will probably be able to ride in public transport at conces-
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  sionary fares. The Bill does not make any discrimination; it does not even have a means test.
  LORD HAWKE: I think you have to register at the town hall—which might be inconvenient to passers through.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I should not think it would be inconvenient for some of your Lordships to save 50 per cent. of your fares. Noble Lords may be resident in the town and not passers through. If they are resident in the town, they can get their concessionary fares, just as today one can get a workman's ticket, even if one is dressed in a top hat and morning coat—but perhaps that is not altogether a bad thing, as we are all workmen, whether we work in your Lordships' House or in a factory. There is one point which I would commend to all the municipalities. The other day I came across an example of a concessionary fare which is most valuable. Perhaps the noble Lord will convey this suggestion to the Minister of Transport. In one town where concessionary fares are already in operation there is a central park, and the local authority are charging a fare of 1d. per child under fifteen years of age from anywhere in that town to the central park, the purpose being to get them off the streets into the park for play, and so to contribute to road safety. I understand that in that particular town the casualties have gone down considerably.
  There is only one question I want to ask the noble Lord. In one of the clauses in this Bill the statement is made that none of these concessionary fares is subject to grant. Do I understand that to mean that, for whatever purpose it is made, the concession comes out of either the profits of the transport department or the rate fund of the municipality? Is there not an exception in regard to concessions for children who are attending school? If a municipality puts on a bus service to take children at a concessionary fare from their homes to school, would that not come under a grant from the education authority? That is the only question I have to ask. With those observations we wish the Bill well. We promise that perhaps on some future occasion we shall try to do all those things which the first and original Bill

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  introduced in another place set out to do, and we hope your Lordships will give this Bill a speedy passage to the Statute Book.
  3.23 p.m.
  LORD BURDEN: My Lords, my original intention in speaking on the Second Reading of this Bill was to indicate briefly, at the instance of the Association of Municipal Corporations, some Amendments for your Lordships' consideration. But I have gathered that, even were Her Majesty's Government able to accept those Amendments, the time factor is such that it would endanger the Bill. As my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth has said, we are in favour of the principles of the Bill, so far as they go, and it is our desire to facilitate its passage. Therefore one is not in a position to pursue the Amendments. However, that fact ought not, I think, to prevent one from protesting that your Lordships are not being given sufficient time to do what I think is the right thing in regard to this Bill—that is, to give adequate consideration to Amendments which we feel should be considered.
  I have been making some inquiries, and I find that of some thirty Bills which will, it is hoped, receive the Royal Assent, only one, the Oil in Navigable Waters Bill, was introduced into your Lordships' House first. As my noble friend has said, it is true that the Road Traffic Bill was introduced in this House, but that Bill received such a mauling from both sides—being such a thoroughly ad Departmental Bill—that we hope we have heard the last of it. Not only was only one Bill introduced in your Lordships' House, but of the Amendments which this House made and considered to those thirty-odd Bills, only one was accepted. I understand that we are a Revising Chamber. If we go on as a revising Chamber of that kind we shall revise ourselves out of existence.
  I remember my noble and learned Leader Lord Jowitt making a protest on one occasion that this House was not given sufficient time to consider Bills, and that there was always a rush at the end of a Session. It is true that this Bill does not reach us in a rush at the end of a Session, but even this small Bill is not receiving adequate time for proper consideration. As my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth has said, we shall do everything to facilitate the passage
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  of this Bill and nothing which would retard its progress through its various stages. I do not propose to pursue the Amendments to which I referred earlier, but I do protest at the fact that any attempt to consider Amendments which ought to be considered would endanger the Bill. I feel it right to make that protest.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, had a good time—a brief and merry innings. He reminded us that many of us have a vested interest in these matters. Perhaps I should declare my interest, which is rather larger than that of most of your Lordships, because I have six children who come within the concessionary age group; but as we do not live in a municipally conducted transport area, up to now it is of no benefit. The question of contract carriages does not arise in this Bill. The noble Lord dealt very fully with them, and I must say he has caught me out, in that I did not listen to every word of the debate we had the other day on the Road Traffic Bill, though, so far as I am aware, he advanced to-day arguments which he did not advance then. I am not aware that in the course of the progress; on that Bill he proposed that local authorities should run their contract carriages. He may have done so, but, as I say, I am not aware of it.
  I do not think it would be right to accuse us of inconsistency. I should say the very reverse. We have at least been consistent throughout, because when adopting this Private Bill or any other legislation we have consistently opposed the running of contract carriages by municipalities. That may be Gilbertian—I think the noble Lord called it Gilbertian—but I am not sure whether consistency or inconsistency is Gilbertian. At any rate, it is consistent. The noble Lord is perfectly free to discuss anything in this House. We always do discuss anything, otherwise our debates would be rather shorter than they sometimes are. The noble Lord is entitled to an answer, I think, to the degree that I have given him. I am not prepared to take shelter behind the fact that there is nothing in the Bill about contract carriages, but at the same time I am not prepared to enter into a long discourse on a very complex subject when there is nothing in the Bill about it.

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  The other matter the noble Lord raised was the second missing clause, which was apparently to allow the British Transport Commission to operate contract carriages: in other words, to restore the status quo of the 1947 Act, whereby the London Transport Executive could have operated them. It was stopped from doing so by the Act of 1953. But I would remind the noble Lord that over a very wide field of road traffic the British Transport Commission do, in effect, operate contract carriages already, because they are the owners of Tilling and the Scottish Motor Transport group; and they are shareholders in others as well.
  The noble Lord's other main point was the question of the possibility of the provision of concessionary fares by local authorities who, at the moment, are not giving them. We believe that if their ratepayers wanted them to give them, they would be giving them now. There are long precedents for some of these concessions. They go back as far as twenty-five years. We think that those people who want to give them had a good opportunity to do so. In all local government procedure there is the old and tried case that when the authority want to take up some project which they have no power to do at the moment and which may be controversial, they shall go to their ratepayers and ultimately get private legislation passed. That, we think, is the right way to deal with this question. As adopted, this is not a Bill in which we seek primarily to amend the law; it is a Bill in which we really indemnify and make restoration to people who have had certain concessions taken away from them. Therefore, it would not be suitable to make far-reaching changes in the law in a Bill of this nature. The noble Lord also mentioned a point which was raised in Standing Committee in another place, about bringing children into the play parks by concessionary fares. I have no doubt that these things are being examined by local authorities. It is really for the local authority, rather than for the Minister, to initiate these matters. They know their own local position.
  The noble Lord asked me an important point and I shall reply to it as I reply to the noble Lord, Lord Burden. I
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  understood that the noble Lord, Lord Burden, was going to put down certain Amendments to this Bill. I was informed roughly of the substance of those Amendments. Had there been time, we should have accepted those Amendments in some form or another—not that we think that they are vitally necessary, because we believe they are not; but, at the same time, they would have clarified the Bill, and particularly the point which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, raised, whether the question of the cost of transport under an education scheme should, or should not, fall within this Bill.
  The procedure which I was going to suggest was that the noble Lord, Lord Burden, should put down his Amendments and, in reply to those Amendments, I should make a short statement so as to get on record precisely what the view of Her Majesty's Government was of the intentions and effect of this Bill, so that when it came to the question of the local authority audit, the local government auditor would at least know exactly what Her Majesty's Government intended by the Bill. Of course, he is not the last authority. If his decision is tested in the courts, that is a different thing. But I suspect that the right step is, first of all, to convince the local authority auditor. So, if the noble Lord would like to put down his Amendments and let me treat them in that way, I think it probably would be for the ultimate benefit of this Bill.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he will make a reply to my specific question now.
  LORD HAWKE: The reply to the noble Lord's specific question is that it is not intended that any concessions under this Bill should be part and parcel of those under separate legislative procedure, such as the Education Act or the National Assistance Act. If there is a power to operate cheap fares under an education scheme which would attract a grant, it is not intended to detract in any way from the grant by the fact that the concessionary fares under this Bill do not attract a grant. It is not an easy matter to deal with, and I do not know whether I have made it clear. I shall certainly make it clear on the Committee stage, because the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Burden, will cover that point.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: All I ask is this. Paragraph (c) of Clause 1 (2) says, as regards a qualified person—that means a person who can have a concessionary fare—
  "persons whose age exceeds fifteen years but does not exceed eighteen years and who are undergoing full-time education."
  The question I ask the noble Lord is a very simple one: will the cost of granting concessionary fares to that category of person fall upon the rate fund, the profits of the transport undertaking or the education authority's grant in respect of the transport of young persons going to school? It is a simple question.
  LORD HAWKE: If the transport is provided under Section 55 of the Education Act, 1944, it is not a concession given by the transport undertaking but a facility bought by the local education authority and paid for by them. It attracts a grant of 60 per cent. Is that clear to the noble Lord?
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: No. Will all the young persons who are transported under this clause come within that definition as well? Or does the definition which the noble Lord has just given deal only with classes where there is specific transport provided for a specific purpose? We know that the transport provided under the education scheme is specific transport—for instance, buses specifically provided for children going to school. If the same children travel on public transport, transport provided for the ordinary class of passenger, at the concessionary fare, will the cost of the concession fall on the local authority?
  LORD BURDEN: May I put it in this way? Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, can put me right. Would any local authority transfer to their transport undertaking the cost of conveying those school children, so that the whole cost would be borne by the ratepayers and the 60 per cent. grant of the Ministry of Education would be lost? That is really the point.
  LORD HAWKE: I am advised that it is not intended that this Bill should in any way detract from the grant received from the Ministry of Education or in any other direction.
  LORD BURDEN: That is right.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Then I understand the noble Lord to say that the cost of transporting children under paragraph (c) of subsection (2) of Clause 1 will attract the grant and will not fall on the rate fund or on the profits of the transport undertaking. That is what I understand the noble Lord to say.
  LORD HAWKE: That is the intention of the Bill.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Good.
  LORD HAWKE: There may be borderline cases which are difficult to work, but that is the intention of the Bill.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I thank the noble Lord very much.
  LORD HAWKE: The noble Lord, Lord Burden, made one general point which it is not really for me to receive, but my noble friend the Leader of the House will, I know, read his remarks with interest, because it is a subject in which he takes a keen personal interest. I regret that the noble Lord's arithmetic has turned out quite as it has. I had not appreciated it.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS (HARMFUL PUBLICATIONS) BILL
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
  GERMAN POTASH SYNDICATE LOAN BILL [H.L.]
  Presented (pursuant to leave given this day), and read 1a.
  ETHIOPIAN TREATY
  ETHIOPIAN TREATY