Sitting of 2 March 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  PALESTINIAN REFUGEES
  Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what segregation arrangements exist for tubercular cases in the United Nations Relief and Works Agency camps for Palestinian refugees towards the cost of which Her Majesty's Government make an annual contribution.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord John Hope): Refugees suffering from infectious tuberculosis are segregated and cared for in local government hospitals in Gaza and the Lebanon, in the new Government sanitorium in Amman and in a missionary tuberculosis hospital on the West Bank. Next month the United Nations Relief and Works Agency will open a further 100-bed tuberculosis hospital in Jordan especially for refugees.
  Mr. Maitland: Is it not the case that more than 40,000 refugees have been living for more than five years in one camp near Jericho alone, that no arrangements whatever for segregation exist in that camp, that the arrangements which my hon. Friend has described are utterly inadequate and that the Government, having contributed large sums of money to the Agency for many years, should voice this major scandal, in which we have a share?
  Lord John Hope: Things may not be perfect, but the Agency is working on the advice of a public health specialist in tuberculosis from the World Health Organisation, and I am assured that there is no special danger to public health.
  Mr. Maitland: Is my hon. Friend aware that nothing whatever has been done
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  about these 40,000 refugees near Jericho and that no arrangements for segregation exist at the camp?
  Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what handicraft or other occupations are carried on by Palestinian refugees in the United Nations Relief and Works Agency camps.
  Lord John Hope: As the answer is very long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Maitland:May we take it from that answer that it is a negative reply? My hon. Friend is, no doubt, aware that no arrangements are made at this camp near Jericho for any handicrafts to be carried on by these 40,000 people who for five years have been sitting doing nothing.
  Lord John Hope: My hon. Friend had better await the answer. It would be difficult to make it long if it were a negative reply.
  Following is the answer:
  In the field of vocational training there are at present two centres—one in Jordan and one in Gaza—conducting courses of from six months to two years' duration in the engineering and building trades. The capacity of each centre is 200. The minimum age of entry is 15, but all the students at present in attendance are much older. It is proposed to establish throughout the host countries a number of similar vocational training schools, including centres for agriculture and for women's work (commercial, secretarial, etc.).
  It is proposed also to conduct refresher courses for refugee tradesmen who have been so long away from their trades that they are in need of instruction and practice.
  A number of training courses have been conducted in industrial and commercial establishments, e.g., shorthand and typing, welding.
  The Welfare Division and the Fundamental Education activities in U.N.R.W.A. cater for the leisure hours and occupational and educational needs of camp refugees who are not of school going age, both men and women. Besides education, various crafts are being introduced. Libraries and reading rooms are established. Play centres and kindergartens are run for the children who are below school going age.
  The following figures indicate the nature of these activities: —
  A. MEN
  1. Crafts (39 Centres)
  Crafts are being selected to meet the needs and demands of refugees. Each centre is equipped for one of the following crafts:—carpentry, shoemaking, tailoring and rug weaving.
  2. Clubs (58)
  Clubs are equipped with radio sets, indoor games, library and reading rooms. Outdoor games such as football, basketball, weight-lifting and boxing.
  3. Other activities (58 Centres)
  Other activities such as:—

  (a) Educational activities.

  (b) Lectures.

  (c) Cinema shows.

  (d) Dramatics.

  (e) Development of hobbies are also provided.

  4. Boy Scouts
  39 groups in 39 camps.
  B. WOMEN
  1. Arts and Crafts Centres (Advanced) (20 Centres)
  The following advanced Arts and Crafts are being conducted for women in camps:—

  (a) Lampshades.

  (b) Crusaders jackets,

  (c) Children's dresses.

  (d) Stoles.

  (e) Embroidery.

  (f) Dressmaking.

  (g) Leather work.

  (h) Toy making.

  2. Crafts for beginners (64 Centres)
  Hospital linen, overalls, layettes, mending, sewing, knitting, embroidery and weaving are being given to women.
  (3) Home Economics (27 Centres)
  (4) Other activities (64 Centres)

  (a) Educational activities.

  (b) Discussion groups.

  (c) Child welfare and hygiene.

  (d) Cinema shows.

  (e) Library and reading rooms are also provided.

  5. Girl Guides—47 groups.
  C. CHILDREN
  Play Centres (19 Centres)
  Play centres for children who are below school-going age are being run in camps.
  Mr. Crouchasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of Palestinian refugees, per doctor, in the United Nations Relief and Works Agency camps.
  Lord John Hope: Three thousand five hundred and fifty-six.
  Mr. Crouchasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the weekly cost, per capita, of adults and of children under five years of age, in sterling, in the United Nations Relief and Works Agency camps for Palestinian refugees; how far this includes cost of administration; and how much, per capita, the cost of adminstration amounts to.
  Lord John Hope:The average weekly cost of relief per capita is 4s. 1d. It has not been possible to obtain separate figures for adults and children under five. The figure of 4s. 1d. does not include the cost of administration, which is 2d. a week.
  Mr. Crouch: Does my noble Friend consider that 4s. 1d. a week is enough? It seems to me a very small sum indeed.
  Lord John Hope: The results, while by no means perfect, are not unsatisfactory on the whole.
  Mr. Crouchasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the weekly amount and variety of food, by weight, per capita, in the United Nations Relief and Works Agency camps for Palestinian refugees.
  Lord John Hope: As the answer is fairly long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Crouch: Is it a varied diet or does it consist of rice, wheat or one or two basic foods?
  Lord John Hope:I cannot give my hon. Friend details of that sort, but I can tell him that the nutrition specialists of the World Health Organisation, who make regular tours of inspection, have found the condition of these people not unsatisfactory.
  Mr. Patrick Maitland:Can my noble Friend say whether he is satisfied with this tale of ruin of human lives to which this country has contributed through our contribution to the cost of the Organisation, and is he satisfied with the progress made?
  Lord John Hope: I am satisfied that progress has been made, and I would ask my hon. Friend not to exaggerate what, in any case, is a difficult task.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Can the Minister say what contribution is being made to the solution of this serious problem by the rich Arab States?
  Lord John Hope: I cannot answer that question without notice. I am not responsible for their contribution anyway.
  Following is the answer:
  The weekly quantities, per refugee in summer, are:

  1 Ib. 4½ oz. of flour.

  1 lb. 4 oz. of pulses.

  12 oz. of oils and fats.

  1 lb. 4 oz. of sugar.

  8 oz. of rice.

  9 oz. of wheat.

  and in winter each receives also:

  1 oz. of dates.

  ¾ oz. of pulses.

  The majority of refugees supplement their rations with fruit, vegetables, eggs and meat either produced by themselves or bought with their small irregular earnings.
  2. Children under one year, who do not receive the basic ration, are given 1,200 grammes of whole milk daily. Supplementary foods in varying quantities are given to children between six months and two years; to pregnant and nursing women; and to others according to medical advice.

  FALKLAND ISLAND DEPENDENCIES (CHILEAN SETTLEMENTS)
  Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) if he will make a statement about the establishment of a Chilean naval base in Pendulum Bay, Deception Island;
  (2) what bases have been occupied by Chile in British Antarctica.
  Lord John Hope: The Chilean Government had previously established three unauthorised settlements in the Falkland Islands Dependencies and they have recently set up a fourth at Pendulum Cove, Deception Island. The new settlement, which consists of a hut occupied by a small party of Chilean naval personnel, is being kept under close observation by the British authorities at Deception Island. Her Majesty's Charge d'Affaires in Santiago has protested to the Chilean Government at this infringement of British sovereignty.
  Mr. Hall: Is it not a fact that the first post was set up by the Chileans in 1947 and that this infringement of our rights has been going on steadily ever since? Is it not possible to stop these unlawful acts by South American Republics who seem to be establishing their own code of international law?
  Lord John Hope: Her Majesty's Government are well aware; of the
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  seriousness of what is going on, but that is no reason why patience should not go hand in hand with firmness.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Is the original offer to remit this question to the International Court for settlement still open, and is Chile aware of that?
  Lord John Hope: Yes, Sir.

  OIL (U.N. REPORT)
  Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make available in the Library the Report of the Economic Commission for Europe on the Price of Oil in Western Europe.
  Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement in respect of the Report on the activities of international oil companies sent by the United Nations for consideration by Her Majesty's Government; on what date the Report was received; what consideration has been given to it; and what action is contemplated.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. R. H. Turton): I would refer to my answers to the hon. Members for Northfield (Mr. Chapman) and Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) on 24th February and to the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Awbery) on 28th February. The Report was received on 23rd February. It is now being considered by Her Majesty's Government with a view to preparing suitable instructions for the United Kingdom Representative at the meeting of the Coal Committee of the Economic Commission for Europe on 9th and 10th March, when this Report will be discussed by the participating Governments.
  Mr. Hall: In view of the report appearing in the Press that this Report states that there is no economic reason why the price of oil in the Middle East should be tied to the United States price, should not it be made available for hon. Members to read at the earliest moment so that we can arrive at our own conclusions?
  Mr. Turton: The difficulty is that this Report is a restricted document. It has been made a restricted document by the

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  Secretariat of the Economic Commission and, therefore, until the participating Governments have met on 9th March, I cannot make any comment on the contents of this document.
  Mr. Swingler:But this document does not seem to have been restricted from the Press. Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that fairly full summaries of parts of it have appeared in newspapers in this country, and would he not, therefore, consider making representations to the Secretariat to release this document from the many restrictions still on it, so that hon. Members may have the full benefit of the knowledge that can be gained from it?
  Mr. Turton: I am aware that reports of this document were circulated in the Press, and I believe that some reports were circulated at about the same time as Her Majesty's Government received this document on 23rd February, but it was made a restricted document by the Secretariat, and until the participating Governments have met to consider it, I cannot comment on its contents.
  Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. Dodds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the custom of this House that when an hon. Member has his Question coupled with an earlier one he can ask a supplementary question?
  Mr. Speaker: I had not observed that. I usually do allow it. Mr. Dodds.
  Mr. Dodds: In thanking you, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to ask this supplementary question, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that I have his answer of 24th February? It is totally unacceptable. Is it not a fact that what he calls a restricted document is restricted purely because of the opposition of the friends of the oil companies, and as this matter enters very much into the cost of living, will he see that these racketeers are not protected unduly by this Government who have a pledge to the people?
  Mr. Turton: Whether a document is restricted or not depends on the ruling of the Secretariat of the Economic Commission—[An hon. Member: "It was in the Press"]—who made that ruling on their own initiative. That is the position I stand in today.

  FORMOSA

    Chinese Shipping (Attacks)
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action has been taken through the United Nations Organisation by Her Majesty's Government directed specifically to bringing to an end the attacks on Chinese shipping and installations by the forces of the Formosa administration, as a threat to peace.
    Mr. Turton: On 31st January the Government of New Zealand brought the hostilities (which included attacks on shipping) in the area of the islands off the China coast to the notice of the Security Council as a situation likely to endanger international peace and security. Her Majesty's Government through the United Kingdom delegate gave full support to their initiative.
    Mr. Donnelly: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we read day after day in the newspapers about attacks being made on Chinese Government installations by the Formosa authorities, and is he not further aware that so long as this goes on it is a constant threat to peace? What are the British Government doing outside the United Nations, as well as inside, to stop these attacks?
    Mr. Turton: The Question asked what we were doing within the United Nations. We have made it clear that it is our aim to put an end to the fighting on both sides to ensure that we get peace in this area. The hon. Gentleman will realise that the Security Council is still seized of this matter.

    H.M. Consul
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the nature of the duties of our consul in Formosa; and how far he reports on conditions and events in the island.
    Mr. Turton: There has been no change in the duties of Her Majesty's Consul in Formosa since the reply given to the hon. Member on this subject on 12th November, 1952. Like other consular officers, he reports from time to time on relevant political and economic developments in his consular district.
    Mr. Hughes:Would it be possible for this gentleman to wait on Mr. Chiang Kai-shek and inform him that there is considerable anxiety in this country and in America about his future safety and that this country would offer him hospitality in some island in the Atlantic where he would be safer than he is at the present time?
    Mr. Turton:As was explained a few weeks ago, our consular representative does not hold an exequatur and is not accredited. He is merely there to look after our interests and he is only en rapport with the provincial authorities. That is the limit of his position in Formosa at the present time.

  OVERSEAS INFORMATION SERVICES
  Mr. Gordon Walkerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) by how much the programme costs of the European Service of the British Broadcasting Corporation are to be increased in the coming year;
  (2) by how much the time on the air of the European Service of the British Broadcasting Corporation is to be increased during the coming year.
  Lord John Hope: Expenditure on the European services of the B.B.C. in the coming year will be maintained at approximately the same level as in 1954–55. However, in order to offset rising costs, it has been necessary to cut the daily time on the air of the European services by about three hours altogether as compared with the present average of 37 hours.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Can the hon. Gentleman say how he reconciles this answer with the statement made by his hon. Friend last week, that the Government were carrying out the recommendations of the Drogheda Report to extend these services, when he now reveals that there is to be a reduction in them?
  Lord John Hope: The answer is that over the whole field there is some extension—extension in parts and retraction in parts.
  Mr. Woodburn: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is greater economy to use this type of weapon in Europe than to
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  spend money on armaments, and that if this is effective it will save far more money proportionately?
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Could the hon. Gentleman give us an example of an extension, because so far he has only given us examples of retraction?
  Lord John Hope: The question relates only to the European services, and in that connection, whereas the Drogheda Report recommended that no fewer than seven of the European services should be abolished, we are keeping those on.
  Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the new services, and the extension of present services, that it is proposed to operate during the next financial year; and which services are to be suspended, or curtailed, in connection with the overseas information services in conformity with the Drogheda Report.
  Lord John Hope: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the written answer which my hon. Friend gave the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) on 13th December, in which the programme of expansion which Her Majesty's Government proposed to carry out in the coming year was outlined. None of the existing services is to be suspended, but, as I have stated today in reply to the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker), there will be economies in the B.B.C. European Services, which will be cut by about three hours a day. There will also be some small reductions in the activities of the information services in Germany.
  Mr. Usborne:On a point of order. I have today and this last week risen on a great many occasions and have never succeeded in catching your eye, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether the lighting is such that you do not easily see people who sit on these benches.
  Mr. Speaker:I can assure the hon. Member that he need have no anxiety on that score. I observed the hon. Member rise with a number of other hon. Members, but we must get on and give a chance to other hon. Members who have Questions on the Order Paper.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The proposals of the Drogheda Report were for an ultimate increase in revenue costs of £2 million per

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  annum and in reply last week the Parliamentary Secretary said that during the financial year only £100,000 more was to be spent on overseas services. How does he reconcile those figures with the acceptance in principle of the Drogheda Report? Are not the Government somewhat misleading the House in indicating that they are carrying out the Drogheda Report when, in fact, they are not?
  Lord John Hope: I do not think so, unless we are to be blamed for carrying on some of the services which the Drogheda Report recommended should be closed.

  DISARMAMENT
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the main items of a disarmament convention on which there is now agreement between the major Powers; and what items have still to be agreed before a draft convention can be drawn up.
  Mr. Turton: I would refer the hon. Member to the speech by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Supply on 6th December. All aspects of the problem are, however, now under discussion in private Session in the Sub-Committee of the Disarmament Commission. I cannot therefore make a further statement today.
  Mr. Warbey:Is it not clear that the speech made by the Minister of Supply in New York last October showed that substantial advance towards agreement had been made as a result of concessions from both sides, and if there are any signs that further progress is not made fairly soon during the course of the present private discussions, will the Government take the opportunity to refer the question of disarmament to a conference at the highest level?
  Mr. Torton: We should be careful to do all we can to make the present sittings of the Disarmament Sub-Committee a success, and I hope that the hon. Member will lend his energies in that direction.
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will propose to the United Nations Disarmament Sub-Committee an acceleration of the Sub-Committee's work with a view
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  to securing agreement on a draft disarmament convention covering all countries, including Germany, before the ratification of the Paris Agreements is completed.
  Mr. Turton: Her Majesty's Government are doing all they can to speed the work of the Disarmament Sub-Committee, but whether and when agreement is reached depends not only on us.
  Mr. Warbey: In order to assist the Government in promoting agreement on disarmament, will the hon. Gentleman consider the possibility that a speeding up of the disarmament agreement so that the question of Germany could be merged, and submerged, in a general agreement would in itself create the appropriate political conditions for general agreement?
  Mr. Turton:As the Sub-Committee has met twice already and will meet again tomorrow, that is, I am sure, a good indication of the urgent way in which it is treating the problem.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: If Russia really desires to prevent the rearmament of Germany by means of a general disarmament treaty, will she perhaps instruct her delegate to co-operate instead of doing propaganda, as he did throughout the six weeks last summer?

  FAR EAST (FOREIGN SECRETARY'S VISIT)
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the Bangkok Conference of the Manila Treaty Powers.
  Mr. Turton: When my right hon. Friend returns he will no doubt make a statement about his whole journey, including the Bangkok Conference. In the meantime, the hon. Member will have seen the full communiqué published at the end of the Conference.
  Mr. Warbey: Can the hon. Gentleman in the meantime give the House an assurance that no undertakings were entered into at Bangkok which would result in this country being committed to intervene in the event of a legitimate attempt to upset the military dictatorship of Marshal Pibul Songgram of Siam?
  Mr. Turton: I think the hon. Member would be wise to read through the very long and detailed communiqué that was issued which made it clear especially that the Governments reiterated that such military arrangements as they make will be purely defensive.
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Philips Price.
  Mr. Nicholson: On a point of order. Is it not possible for a supplementary question to be asked on this subject from this side of the House, Mr. Speaker? A gross aspersion, which is entirely without foundation, has been cast upon the Government of a friendly nation.
  Mr. Speaker: I understood the answer to be that we should wait until we got a full statement, and, if so, I think it is wise to do so.
  Mr. Nicholson: Is it not customary to give an opportunity for a supplementary question to be put from this side of the House in such circumstances'? In this case, the hon. Member who asked the Question has made a gross and foundationless aspersion about the Government of a friendly country. I suggest that some opportunity might be given for that aspersion to be contradicted.
  Mr. Speaker: I thought the Minister answered that point.

  GERMANY

    Soviet Proposals
    Mr. Philips Priceasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, since no reply has been received to his Note of 29th November to the Soviet Government asking for concrete proposals on the question of free elections in Eastern Germany, he will send another Note asking whether the Soviet Government will agree to non-Communist parties taking part in elections, with freedom of propaganda and freedom from interference by the police.
    Mr. Turton: No, Sir. I do not believe that the Soviet Government have overlooked the fact that a reply to our Note of 29th November is outstanding.
    Mr. Price: Is it not clear that the Soviet Government are not going to answer awkward questions like these? Would it not, therefore, be advisable to
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    follow the matter up in order to clear up the point and to inform public opinion throughout the world about the hypocrisy of the Soviet Government?
    Mr. Turton: If the hon. Gentleman is right in his hypothesis that the Soviet Government are not going to answer the question. I do not see the point of a further Note.
    Mr. Shinwell: As there has been since the reply to the Note in November last a Soviet broadcast which made a representation, although not an official one, to Her Majesty's Government, could not elucidation be sought through diplomatic, ambassadorial channels, which might be of value in ascertaining the views of the Soviet Government?
    Mr. Turton: The right hon. Gentleman will probably remember that on 31st January my right hon. Friend said:
    "If the desire of the Soviet Government is to give a reply to our Note, they can do so perfectly easily, and it will be immediately examined." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st January, 1955; Vol. 536, c. 677.]
    That was an invitation, and it was made in this House on 31st January.
    Mr. Shinwell:Has not a new situation developed in view of the Soviet broadcast? While I agree, that it was not an official representation, is it not worth the while of Her Majesty's Government in a very vital question of this kind to ascertain the views of the Soviet Government on this issue?
    Mr. Turton: There have been a number of broadcasts and I am not quite certain to which broadcast the right hon. Gentleman is referring.

    Four-Power Talks
    Mr. Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information he has on the Soviet Government's policy regarding four-Power talks after the ratification of the Paris Agreements.
    Mr. Turton: The only information I have is derived from a number of recent public statements, in which the Soviet Government have expressed their views on the prospect of four-Power talks after ratification of the Paris Agreements.
    Mr. Lewis: If the Minister is referring to the broadcast on 15th January and to Mr. Molotov's statement of 8th February, as I assume he is, is it not the case that

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    in both instances the Soviet Government stated that they would not agree to four-Power talks after ratification? If that is the case, can he explain why it was that the Prime Minister was not aware of that fact when I asked him a Question about it last week?
    Mr. Turton:That is not the case. I have here the broadcast statements to which the hon. Gentleman refers, and I do not find that they contain that. They did say that negotiations on German reunification would be in one case "pointless" and in the other "impossible." They used other phrases like that, but they have in no case said that they are unwilling to enter into negotiations.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Would the hon. Member explain why he attaches such importance to the parts of the broadcast to which he has just referred when, on a previous Question about elections in Germany, he was of opinion that the broadcasts did not express the views of the Russian Government?
    Mr. Turton: In this Question I am asked what information I have from broadcasts, and I have tried to the best of my ability to inform the House about these different broadcast statements. In the previous Question the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) asked me whether it was in one broadcast statement, and I made it clear, I hope, that more than one broadcast statement was involved.
    Mr. Beswick: Would the Under-Secretary be good enough to read Question No. 22 and explain the reference to broadcasts?
    Mr. Turton: I was asked what information I had, and I have said in my reply that the information is contained in a number of broadcast statements. The supplementary question was directed to the content of the broadcast statements.
    Mr. Lewis:The Under-Secretary himself has quoted the fact that the Soviet Government have said that in the event of ratification it would be "pointless" and "impossible" to have four-Power talks. Can he now explain what that means, if it does not mean that they would not agree to talks?
    Mr. Alport: Would it be possible for Questions not to be arranged in succession to the same hon. Members, so that they are not in a position to abuse their rights?
    Mr. Speaker:That would not on the whole be convenient. It sometimes happens that an hon. Member who is called for his next Question uses the opportunity to ask an additional supplementary question. But I do not think that that calls for any alteration of the order of Questions on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Lewis: Can I explain to you, Mr. Speaker?
    Hon. Members: No.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is entitled to make an explanation.
    Mr. Lewis: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I explain to you that when I was called I thought that you were calling me to put another supplementary Question.
    Mr. Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will approach the Soviet Government with proposals for the calling of a Four-Power conference, immediately on the ratification of the Paris Agreements, for the purpose of discussing international difficulties.
    Mr. Turton: I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson), on 16th February.
    Mr. Lewis: That reply to my right hon. and learned Friend, as this reply, was completely unsatisfactory. Cannot the Under-Secretary hold out at least some hope? What harm, what danger, what difficulty can there be in making some proposals, or soundings, or some progress towards getting four-Power talks, in view of the gravity of the situation as witnessed by the Prime Minister's speech yesterday?
    Mr. Turton:I hope that the hon. Member will take courage from the fact that the majority of democratic countries in Europe believe that the ratification of these agreements will facilitate four-Power talks.
    Mr. Shinwell:Will the hon. Member clear up this point? Will he make it quite

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    clear that the Government are ready and willing to enter into four-Power talks immediately after ratification?
    Mr. Turton: I am grateful for the opportunity. That has been made clear by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and by the Prime Minister on numerous occasions, and I reiterate it today.

  U.N. CHILDREN'S EMERGENCY FUND
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what contribution was made by Her Majesty's Government last year to the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund; and how much was voted by this organisation to be spent in British territory overseas.
  Lord John Hope: Her Majesty's Government's contribution to U.N.I.C.E.F. in 1954 was £200,000. In the same year U.N.I.C.E.F. allocated £299,367 for projects in British non-self-governing territories.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is it not rather shameful that last year we sponged on the Fund to the extent of nearly £100,000? Are we so hard up that we cannot afford to give this really deserving Fund at least as much as we draw out of it?
  Lord John Hope: I think that the hon. and gallant Member is under a misapprehension. The U.N.I.C.E.F. figures do not include the 50 per cent. minimum matching contributions from the territories themselves. These matching contributions are, in part, financed from the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund, which is, of course, a direct charge on the Exchequer.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Is it not a fact that this expenditure is a very good bargain for the British Commonwealth and Empire? Is it not desirable that we should increase our subscription so that the total funds contributed by other nations may also be increased and the scale of the work enlarged?
  Lord John Hope:It would no doubt be desirable if we could do that, and if we can do so we shall, but it would not be fair to call it a bargain in that we could then be judged not to be playing our part.
  Captain Waterhouse: Is it not a fact that this country subscribes very handsomely to all the United Nations funds?
  Lord John Hope: Yes, Sir, that is so.

  TANGIER (MEHDI BENNOUNI)
  Mr. Bennasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why, and by what authority, Her Majesty's Consul-General in Tangier acceded to the recent French request for the deportation of Mehdi Bennouni.
  Lord John Hope: No request has been received by Her Majesty's Consul-General in Tangier for the deportation of Mehdi Bennouni. He has in fact been living for nearly two years past in the Spanish zone of Morocco.
  Mr. Benn:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the reason Mr. Bennouni has been living in the Spanish zone of Morocco is that he was deported from his home in Tangier and that last year, when the British Consul in Tangier was the president of the International Committee, Mr. Bennouni's frequent requests to be allowed to return were refused? Is he aware that Mr. Bennouni is of the opinion that he has been refused permission to return to Tangier since he appeared as the Moroccan representative at the United Nations?
  Lord John Hope: The ultimate responsibility lies with the committee of control in this case.

  ASIAN COUNTRIES (ECONOMIC AID)
  Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what proposals Her Majesty's Government have received from the United States Government for joint American-West European economic aid to Asian countries; and what has been Her Majesty's Government's reply to those proposals.
  Mr. Turton: No proposals have been received, although Her Majesty's Government are aware that the United States Government have been giving consideration to this complex problem.
  Mr. Elwyn Jones: Are the Government making any counter-proposals or suggestions in regard to this matter, which is one of very great importance in view of the conditions in Asia at the present time?
  Mr. Turton: The matter was, of course, one of those discussed at the Bangkok Conference, as will be seen from the communiqué, to which I would refer the hon. and learned Gentleman.

  JAMAICA (PRODUCTION AND EMPLOYMENT)
  Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action, commensurate with the gravity of the problem, he is taking to provide employment in Jamaica to obviate the need for large numbers of its people to seek work in Britain or suffer destitution.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): I explained the position in the reply which I gave to the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) on 16th February.
  Mr. Dodds:Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the people of this country and of the West Indies are fed up with fine words and would like to see some action taken in this great human problem?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: This is a very great issue and incapable of being dealt with in question and answer of this kind. Since 1946, £4½ million have gone from the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund and many plans of an active and practical kind are well under way.
  Mr. J. Griffiths:Since there is a prospect that in the not-too-distant future the Caribbean Islands will federate, will the Colonial Secretary take an early opportunity of discussing with the whole of the region those problems which can best be dealt with on a regional basis? Does he not agree that they ought now to be dealt with on some kind of a regional Colombo Plan for the West Indies which would make a start with the federation.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I will look into the right hon. Member's suggestion. It is true that in our approach to the West Indian territories we have the virtual certainty of federation very much in mind.

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES

    Agricultural Officers
    Mr. Braineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to rectify the shortage of agricultural officers in the Colonial Territories, especially in Kenya, Uganda, and Tanganyika.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:The relatively large number of vacancies is due to recent and substantial increases in the establishments of the Agricultural Departments of certain Colonial Territories, including those mentioned. To meet the need, efforts to attract recruits from among graduates of universities in the United Kingdom and elsewhere in the Commonwealth are being intensified.

    Constitutional Development
    Mr. Proctorasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider the future constitutional development of the colonial areas and this country, with a view to creating a federal organisation which shall deal with economic planning and defence of the areas referred to; and if he will arrange for a Colonial Conference with representatives from all the legislative bodies in the Colonies, together with Members of both Houses of Parliament, to have a free and open discussion upon the future of the Colonial Commonwealth.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I appreciate the hon. Member's concern about this matter and have studied his suggestion very carefully. The constitutional relationship of the Colonial Territories to this country and the degree of control exercised by Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom over their affairs vary considerably from place to place and from time to time. The responsibility for any changes must always rest with the Government of the day, according to its judgment of the current political situation and in the light of discussion and negotiation with the government of the territory concerned.
    For this reason, I cannot think that the machinery of a Royal Commission would be suitable for dealing with this subject. On the same principle, while I am always anxious to promote and to develop the very valuable contacts which already exist between members of this House and the

    2049
    representatives of legislative bodies in the territories, I do not consider that it would be helpful to convene a general conference such as the hon. Member suggests.
    Mr. Proctor: Does not the Secretary of State consider that, viewing the results of the African Congress which was promoted by the Labour Government, a conference of all the territories would do a very great good, especially in the contacts which could be made between Members of this House and representatives of the territories concerned?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The conference convened after the war was called because it was the first opportunity after the war of re-establishing the contacts that had existed before. I am not by any means closing my mind to the hon. Member's suggestion, but I do not think at the moment that the time is quite opportune.
    Mr. Awbery:Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that a reorganisation of our Colonial Government system is overdue? Will he keep that in mind and do something as quickly as possible to bring about a reorganisation?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I thoroughly disagree with that suggestion.

    Oversea Civil Service (Transfers)
    Mr. Alportasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the damage caused to the efficient administration of Colonial Territories by the frequent changes of Colonial Service officers from one part to another; and what action he intends to take to prevent this in the future.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am afraid that I do not agree with the implications of this Question. In proportion to the size of the Oversea Civil Service the number of transfers is not unduly high, nor are officers transferred, without very special reason, before completing a reasonable time in a particular post. No doubt transfers may occasionally lead to some lack of continuity, but this is far outweighed by the wider experience which the policy of interchangeability enables officers to bring to their subsequent tasks, and by the fact that a career confined to one particular territory might not attract officers of the calibre required.
    Mr. Alport:Will my right hon. Friend make an inquiry over, say, the last five years, about the average length of time that district officers and provincial officers in certain selected territories have held their appointments?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I will certainly look into that sympathetically.
    Mr. Baldwin: May I reinforce what my hon. Friend said and ask my right hon. Friend to look at the matter again, because we are aware that these officers are promoted; and would not it be possible to increase their pay and let them stay on a job rather than move somewhere else from a post in which they have done excellent work?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I will certainly follow up the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Alport), but the fact that the career is open to all Colonial Territories for each individual officer is a very strong help in recruitment.

  NYASALAND

    Soil Conservation
    Mr. F. M. Bennettasked the Secretray of State for the Colonies whether he is satisfied with the rate of adoption by Africans of soil conservation measures in the Central and Northern Provinces of Nyasaland; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Very substantial progress has been made in recent years and there are encouraging signs that Africans in Nyasaland are beginning to appreciate the value of soil conservation measures. The use of contour ridges with tied ridges to prevent the lateral movement of water is becoming universal. In the Northern Province the protection of old gardens is practically complete and new gardens are protected as they are opened. In the Central Province the bunding of one district is almost complete and altogether more than 200,000 acres have been protected since 1951.
    Mr. Bennett: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the earlier unfortunate agitation against soil conservation by certain unscrupulous African Congress extremists who were baulked in exploiting land shortage in these areas because

    2051
    there is not any there to exploit, has now come to an end?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I hope that the good results of this work will educate the people in its value.
    Mr. Johnson:Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what he is doing about Africans becoming assistant agricultural officers in their own Colony, because in Nyasaland Africans are not employed as agricultural officers and they have to go to become officers next door in Tanganyika?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I will look into that matter straight away.

  EAST AFRICAN ROYAL COMMISSION (REPORT)
  Mr. Alportasked the Secretary of State for the Colony when he proposes to publish the Report of the East African Royal Commission.
  Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when it is his intention to publish the Report of the East African Royal Commission.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Report is with the printers, but I cannot yet say when it will be ready for publication. I understand that printing cannot be completed before some time in April.
  Mr. Griffiths: Why the delay? If the Report is already available in print, are we to understand that we cannot get it until April?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd:It is not in print; it is with the printers. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that there has been no avoidable delay whatever, and certainly there is nothing unusual about the time that it has taken.

  NIGERIA (CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONS)
  Mr. T. Reidasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why some retired British minor officers from the Nigerian Civil Service have obtained increases in their pre-war pensions only after a means test, and why some have been refused any increase on pre-war pensions, now worth less than half their pre-war value; and,
  2052
  in view of the declared policy of the Nigerian Government to recruit and retain British officials in Nigerian Services, if he will arrange for a review of these pensions.
  The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs (Mr. Henry Hopkinson):Under the Nigerian pensions increase scheme the payment of increases to pensioners is subject to certain income limits. In that respect the scheme follows the principles of the Pensions (Increase) Acts of this country. Any review of the scheme is a matter for the Government of the Federation of Nigeria.
  Mr. Reid: Surely the Secretary of State has some responsibility for the careers of these people, and surely it is not beyond his power to drop a hint or make a suggestion to the Government of Nigeria to act decently?
  Mr. Hopkinson:My right hon. Friend is in touch with the Governor General of the Federation of Nigeria on the subject, but I would point out that the income limits under the Nigerian pensions increase scheme are very nearly double those of the Pensions (Increase) Acts applicable in this country.

  ADEN (ABYAN SCHEME)
  Mr. Braineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the acreage under cotton in the AbyanScheme during the years 1952, 1953, and 1954; and what was the value of cotton produced.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd:The acreage under cotton in the Abyan Scheme was as follows:

  1952 –11,300 acres

  1953–22,000 acres

  1954 estimated at 46,000 acres.

  The value of the cotton produced was:

  1952— £880,000

  1953— £1,410,840

  1954 estimated at £2,400,000.

  Mr. Braine:Is my right hon. Friend aware that to produce such results in five years in what was once arid wasteland is a very fine achievement indeed and a great credit to those responsible? I wonder if my right hon. Friend could say what contribution this is making to the economy of the territory?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: A thoroughly worth-while contribution, and the thanks of all of us are due to those who carried it out.
  Mr. Usborne: If we can grow all that cotton in that short time, does the Secretary of State think that he might grow a little bit more tea fairly quickly?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I feel that I must answer the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. I am afraid that the qualities of land required for one crop are not, unfortunately, always suitable for the growing of another crop.

  FIJI (CONSTITUTION)
  Mr. Reevesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what proposals are under consideration by his Department for political advancement in Fiji.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd:No further change in the constitutional arrangements for Fiji is at present contemplated. In December, 1954, however, the Letters Patent were amended to empower the Governor to appoint a Speaker of the Legislative Council. It is his intention to appoint Ratu Sir Lala Sukuna, who was until recently Secretary for Fijian Affairs.
  Mr. Reeves: Does the Secretary of State realise that the Fijians themselves are very disappointed at the slow progress in this direction?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I think that the hon. Gentleman has got that altogether wrong. There is no sign of a substantial kind in favour of any change. I share the view of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) that until there is such a sign there is no reason to make constitutional innovations.
  Mr. Reeves: If I supply the right hon. Gentleman with some evidence, is he prepared to look at it?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am always ready to receive any communications.

  CYPRUS

    Constitution
    Mrs. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made towards the implementation
    2054
    of the new constitution for Cyprus announced to the House on 28th July, 1954.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Governor is engaged on the many questions of substance and detail that have obviously got to be carefully worked out. I shall make a further statement as soon as practicable.
    Mrs. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will call a conference of representatives of the main interests in Cyprus to consider the constitutional future of the island.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No, Sir, but the Governor of Cyprus has on several occasions made it clear that he is ready to meet such representatives to discuss constitutional development.
    Mrs. Jeger:Can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps have been taken by the Government to make this willingness to meet representatives perfectly clear? Has this been a public invitation to the leaders of the Cypriot people?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:There have been constant statements by the Governor, both broadcast and spoken, and there have been statements by me in this House. I do not think that anyone who knows him would deny that the Governor of Cyprus is one of the most accessible people it is possible to find in that part of the territory.
    Mr. Rankin:Is the Minister aware that a number of these territories do not seem to like the constitutional proposals of the Government, and is he further aware that Nyasaland is a possible source of trouble in that respect?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The hon. Gentleman must not make the mistake of confusing the problems of one territory with another.
    Mr. Rankin: I used that as an illustration.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The constitutional proposals for Cyprus have not been disclosed, but they will be when people are prepared to come forward and discuss them.

    Immigrants
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of Greeks and non-Greeks, respectively, who have received visas to visit, reside or work in Cyprus in each year since the war; the number of applications in each category which have been refused; and if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy toward immigration into the island.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: As the reply to the first part of the Question calls for a table of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The policy is normally to issue visas freely to bona fide visitors, but to restrict the immigration of aliens intending to work, or engage in any trade or profession, which would result in unfair competition with Cypriots. In all such applications, the chief immigration officer is advised by an Immigration Control Board.
    Mr. Maitland: Can my right hon. Friend say whether there is opposition in Cyprus to the free immigration of Greeks from the kingdom of Greece, and would he say whether it is part of the policy of Her Majesty's Government to work for absolute freedom of movement between the island of Cyprus and the kingdom of Greece?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:In reply to the first part of that supplementary question, I would say that there is a general desire in Cyprus to see that there is no unfair competition with Cypriots for jobs in their own country, but in practice the number of Greeks who have been let in is far more considerable, in proportion to those refused, than those of any other nationality. In answer to the second part of the question, that is one of the matters which I think time will help to solve. I hope that the sooner we get on with constitutional talks the quicker we can get to discussion of matters of that kind.
    Following is the information:
    IMMIGRATION OF GREEKS AND NON-GREEKS INTO CYPRUS ANNUALLY SINCE THE WAR
    Since bona fide visitors are normally issued with visas without reference to the Cyprus Government, it is not possible to give the number of Greeks and non-Greeks who have received visas for visit purposes to Cyprus during the period stated. The following table shows the number of persons, not being British subjects, who have applied for immigration
    2056
    permits to work or reside permanently in Cyprus.

    Year

    Greeks

    Other aliens

    Approved

    Refused

    Approved

    Refused

    1946

    …

    23

    *

    28

    *

    1947

    …

    45

    *

    31

    *

    1948

    …

    64

    *

    43

    *

    1949

    …

    34

    19

    12

    4

    1950

    …

    23

    26

    4

    24

    1951

    …

    19

    13

    9

    18

    1952

    …

    61

    33

    15

    54

    1953

    …

    27

    26

    6

    29

    1954

    …

    22

    16

    6

    19

    318

    133

    154

    148

    * No record available

  KENYA

    Arrested Persons
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many people in Kenya have been arrested to date as a result of the Mau Mau trouble; how many have been released after screening and where they now are; how many are still in custody and where they now are; and how many have been executed.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: As the reply contains many figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Hughes: Can the Secretary of State say what steps are being taken to protect those who are released and those who declare themselves in favour of law and order? What steps are being taken to enable people to return in safety to their homes?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:That is one of the considerations we must always bear in mind, but with the progressive improvement in the situation that safety is being improved, too.
    Mr. F. Harris: Can the right hon. Gentleman speed up the work of some of the screening camps, because in some it is deplorably slow?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Government of Kenya are conscious of that difficulty and they recently set up a committee under Sir Vincent Glenday which has reported and says that the new arrangement, in its view, should meet all genuine fears.
    Mr. Benn: Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many of the people in detention camps have been acquitted by the courts that tried them, as there is evidence that a certain number have been?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:These figures are very complicated. I have taken a lot of trouble about the table. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will study it and then put down a Question next week when Questions to me will appear at the top of the list.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the Minister aware that the present rate of improvement is so slight and so small that no one observes it?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:I am also aware that the problem is of such a kind that no one has tackled it before.
    Following is the information:

    A. Arrests, prosecutions, etc., to 12th February

    Arrested

    …

    278,560

    Released after preliminary Questioning

    …

    56,854

    Screened

    …

    221,706

    Released after screening

    …

    110,173

    Tried

    …

    111,032

    Convicted

    92,571

    Acquitted

    18,461

    Awaiting trial

    …

    501

    Mau Mau convicts in custody at 7th February

    …

    18,210

    B. Additional detentions during Operation Anvil

    Arrested

    …

    33,500

    Released after preliminary Questioning

    …

    10,500

    Released after screening

    …

    5,348

    The majority of persons released are in their districts of origin in Central Province. A
    small number were returned to Nairobi.

    C. Places of detention (all detainees including Anvil
    detainees)

    Holding and detention camps

    …

    30,114

    Works camps

    …

    15,000

    Transit camps

    …

    3,649

    D. Executions

    Up to 11th February

    …

    800

    Economic and Social Development
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will specify the plans at present in operation in Kenya designed to attract Africans to peace, law and order and to assure them of full and free educational, economic and social freedom.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I would refer the hon. Member to the detailed statement of policy published by the Kenya Government on 5th July, 1954, a copy of which is in the Library of the House, and to full information which was published on 15th February in the OFFICIAL REPORT in accordance with my promise to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley).
    Mr. Hughes: Can the Minister say what success is being achieved by the policy and plan outlined in that document?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:I think that there are signs of growing confidence, and the support given universally by African opinion to the recent amnesty terms is a pointer in the right direction.
    Mr. Fenner Brockway:In view of the actions which have been taken in Kenya and which have so seriously prejudiced the amnesty proposals, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman what action the Government are taking to restore the trust of Mau Mau adherents in the genuineness of the offer?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I have already expressed my views in regard to the gross impropriety—if not something far worse—of those who attempt to prejudice the amnesty settlement, and there are questions later on that matter.
    Mr. Philips Price:Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that there are many Africans who have lost their tribal state and have virtually no position in society? Is it not vitally important to get education and social services going among the African people?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:I am quite certain that the final cure for horrors of this kind lies in the success of advanced education which will enable the African and others to view the problems of this generation in a balanced and sensible way.

    Military Operations
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the military progress made in Kenya to date towards resolving the Mau Mau trouble.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: By the end of 1954 the improved situation in the reserves permitted the transfer of the main military

    2059
    effort to the prohibited areas. The first of a number of operations in these areas, "Hammer", was recently completed in the Aberdares with encouraging results. We have destroyed the immunity of the forest gangs. A second operation started on 22nd February in the Mount Kenya area.
    Mr. Hughes:With his unrivalled knowledge and sources of information on this matter, can the Minister say whether we are any nearer to the end of this trouble than we were at the time mentioned in the statement to which he has just referred?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:I would hesitate to dogmatise. One can say that as a result of military operations, quite apart from the purely military results, the military have been able to leave the special areas largely in the hands of the civil administration and it has proved possible to maintain law and order in those areas with the minimum of military backing.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: May I ask if the Secretary of State can reply to the question I sought to put last week arising out of the situation in Kenya? In view of what happened quite recently, and looking at it from this distance, does he think that there are obvious attempts to undermine the multi-racial government and that he should make a pronouncement that the multi-racial government has come to stay and call on all sections of the community in Kenya to support it—not forgetting speeches which have been made recently?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I do not think it necessary to reaffirm that Her Majesty's Government are entirely behind the multiracial experiment and that were it to break down the powers of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom remain absolutely as they were before.

    Surrender Offer (Proscribed Pamphlets)
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action he proposes to take against those settlers in Kenya who have been responsible for the distribution of leaflets warning members of Mau Mau that, despite the Kenya Government's amnesty offer, any member who surrenders will be hanged.
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of the widespread dismay felt in Kenya by the action of European settlers in distributing leaflets warning members of the Mau Mau of the consequences if they accept the amnesty terms of the Government; and what instructions he has given the Governor of the colony in this situation.
    Mr. Fenner Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action has been taken against the publishers and distributors of the leaflets repudiating the surrender terms announced in Kenya on 8th January.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what information he has now received on police investigations in respect of persons responsible for printing or distributing pamphlets or leaflets in Kenya proscribed under emergency regulations; and what action has been taken in respect of European or other periodicals which have been encouraging defiance of the law.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:I would refer the hon. Members to the reply I gave on 23rd February to the hon. Members for Flint, East (Mrs. White) and Leyton (Mr. Sorensen). Police investigations are continuing and I await a further report. A new Emergency Regulation has been made which renders it an offence, punishable by up to two years' imprisonment and/or a fine of up to £500, to communicate or attempt to communicate with terrorists to the prejudice of the surrender offer. Although various periodicals in Kenya have been critical of the Kenya Government, none has advocated defiance of the law.
    Sir L. Plummer:In view of the fact that if action of the sort taken by the white settlers had been taken by the Kikuyu it would have led to their apprehension and execution, will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that swift and condine punishment is meted out to those people who break the law in this way?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:I think that the hon. Member must beware of a too easy generalisation of this kind. These particular pamphlets—and I have already said what I feel about them—were drawn up with great care in regard to the existing law of the land, and that is why it has been necessary to take further steps.
    Mr. Johnson: May I ask the Minister to give the House a firm assurance that even-handed justice will be done in this matter? Would he further comment upon the speech of Mr. Humphrey Slade, and would he care to tell us what the Governor intends to do in this connection?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, of course, even-handed justice will be done irrespective of the race of those who break the law. Regarding speeches made either in Parliament or in the Legislative Council, I should hesitate to comment on matters which are privileged.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: May I ask whether, when considering this matter, the right hon. Gentleman will give serious consideration to the statement made in the Legislative Council last week by Mr. Matthui, one of the African members of the Council, that if some of these statements and actions had been made or performed by Africans, action would already have been taken? Is it not absolutely essential to the present conditions in Kenya that we shall as a Government both here and in Kenya show that we treat all races alike?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman. As I have already hinted, these new powers had to be taken because the pamphlets in question appear to have been drafted in such a way as to avoid breaking the existing provisions of the law of sedition. I can give the right hon. Gentleman an assurance that they will be imposed without any regard to who has broken them.
    Mr. Sorensen: May I ask the Secretary of State whether we are to deduce from what he said that in fact no offence has yet been committed, in view of his statement that regulations were about to be issued making this incident an offence?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I was talking about legal offences. I have also made it absolutely clear that in my view a gross moral offence was committed.
    Mr. Fenner Brockway: While appreciating what the right hon. Gentleman said on this matter, may I ask him to see that there is no discrimination in the treatment of Africans and Europeans, and whether it is not the case that if Africans had been guilty of such offences they would have been screened and declared
    2062
    black and white? Should not what is good for the Africans be good for the Europeans?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: In order to avoid any possible misunderstanding, if I do not answer the hon. Gentleman, I would add that if I say it four times it is no more true than when I say it once.
    Mr. Alport: Can my right hon. Friend say whether there have been many instances of the distribution of these pamphlets or whether the instances have been relatively isolated?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd:They have been relatively isolated, but there have still been quite enough to be very serious. Even if there had been only a handful, the offence would have been just as great.

  NYASALAND (PORTUGUESE AFRICANS)
  Mr. F. M. Bennettasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Portuguese Africans have applied to immigration officers for permission to enter Nyasaland since the Aliens Restrictions Rules were applied to Africans in September, 1953.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: None, Sir.
  Mr. Bennett:Is it not unfortunately the fact that in the meanwhile illegal immigration has been going on into Nyasaland, and would not my right hon. Friend agree that everything possible ought to be done to curtail this in the interests of the indigenous population?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I quite agree.
  Mr. J. Johnson:Is it not a fact that tens of thousands of these Portuguese Africans are coming over the line without permission and are being used by the European plantation owners as cheap labour, which means that thousands of Africans have to work in the mines and on the land in the Union in order to get jobs?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I have no information that that is the case. Undoubtedly the number of people who want to live under British administration seems to grow every year, but I will look into that point.

  BUGANDA (CONSTITUTION)
  Mrs. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the constitutional position in Buganda.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd:The Luck has appointed a committee to examine the recommendations made by the conference presided over by Sir Keith Hancock, and is awaiting its report.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA (MINES DISPUTE)
  Mr. J. B. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement on the present position of the industrial dispute in the Northern Rhodesian mines.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: As my statement is necessarily long, I am circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Hynd: Will the Minister clearly endorse the statement by the Governor to the effect that this strike had been conducted in a most responsible fashion? Will he also make it clear that there will be great resentment not only among Africans but among people in this country at any attempt by the South African Union to interfere in this strike and to prevent Africans getting jobs for which they are capable.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I deprecate interference by anyone but those directly concerned in negotiations of this kind.
  Following is the statement:
  Towards the end of 1954 the African Mine Worker's Union, which is recognised by the Copper Companies, made a demand for a wage increase of 10s. 8d. per shift for all grades and for weekly instead of monthly payment of wages, these benefits if granted to apply only to members of the Union. A Government conciliator was appointed in November, but no agreement was reached. Subsequently the Companies indicated their willingness to go to arbitration on the wage claim but not on the other issues. On 3rd January, the African Union called out all African workers on strike, except those employed in essential services. On 24th January the Companies gave notice that any worker who did not report by 28th January would be discharged, with all benefits accrued in respect of past service up to the date of discharge; and that any subsequent reengagement would be as a new employee but at the bottom of the grade in which he was serving before discharge.
  2064
  On 28th February about 2,000 Africans had applied to be paid off in accordance with the Companies' Notice, of whom about 1,230 had been reengaged. The total number then at work was about 11,000 of whom about 7,000 were new recruits. The normal African labour force is about 42,000.
  Following on the visit of Mr. R. Williams, M.P., at the request of the Miners' International, to assist the African Union with legal advice, I understand that the Union has now made a proposal to the Companies which they are considering. I do not wish to say anything that might disturb the delicate negotiations which are now in progress, with the fullest possible assistance from the Northern Rhodesian Government.

FLOODS, AUSTRALIA (U.K. ASSISTANCE)
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): I will, with permission, make a short statement.
The reports which have now been received show that the floods in New South Wales are the worst in the history of Australia. The deep sympathy which everyone in this country feels for the victims of this disaster was voiced by the Prime Minister yesterday. Her Majesty's Government are sure that it would be the wish of everyone in this country that our sympathy should be expressed in a practical form. We all remember the generous help which the Government and people of Australia gave us in our disasters in recent years.
As my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations has already announced in another place, Her Majesty's Government have informed the Australian Government that it is their desire to contribute a sum of £250,000 towards the flood relief in New South Wales. We are asking the Australian authorities what is the most effective way in which this sum should be made available. It may be that there is an urgent need for special medical supplies or other commodities not immediately available in sufficient quantities in Australia. If that should be so, the United Kingdom Government will do their best to help with such supplies. We shall thus be able to make our contribution in whatever way is most helpful to New South Wales.
Mr. Attlee: May I associate hon. Members on this side of the House with the sympathy that all feel with our Australian friends who have suffered in this

2065
great disaster and say how glad we are that the Government are making a contribution?
Mr. Clement Davies: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, when he is communicating with the Australian Government, he will assure them that his expressions of sympathy are the expressions of every Member of this House in regard to the people of Australia at the present moment? As it is almost certain that medical supplies will be needed and that the kind of medical supplies must be known, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether preparations will be put in hand straight away so that these supplies can be flown out as soon as the message arrives?
Mr. Butler:I am sure that the expressions of opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and of the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) will give great satisfaction to the Government and the people of Australia. In reply to the second part of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's remarks, arrangements have already been put in hand to see that the most practical measures are taken, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman can rest assured, because of the gravity of the situation which is still developing, that we have not been resting on this matter.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  DEFENCE
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment to Question [1st March],
  That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1955, Command Paper No. 9391—[The Prime Minister.]
  Which Amendment was to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and add:
  "regrets that the Statement on Defence, 1955, while recognising that thermonuclear weapons have effected a revolution in the character of warfare, and that until effective world disarmament has been achieved it is necessary as a deterrent to aggression to rely on the threat of using thermonuclear weapons, fails to make proposals for the reorganisation of Her Majesty's Forces and of Civil Defence, to indicate what future defence expenditure may be called for; or to explain the grave and admitted deficiencies in the weapons with which Her Majesty's Forces are at present furnished, in spite of the expenditure of some £4,000 million for defence purposes over the past three years ",—
  instead thereof.
  Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
  3.35 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of order. Before the debate is resumed, may I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether you would be kind enough to offer some guidance to those of us who are not quite clear as to the way in which the Questions will be put this evening? You will have noticed, Sir, that there is another Amendment on the Order Paper which has not been moved and which proposes to leave out the same words as my right hon. Friends wish to leave out, but for the purpose of inserting quite different words.
  I assume that the first Question put tonight will merely be whether the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question, but what is not clear, at any rate to me, is what will happen on the assumption that that Question is carried. Will the Question then be put again as the main Question, or will the vote on the first Question be regarded as being decisive of that matter?
  Mr. Speaker: The Question has already been proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." That is the Question before

  2067
  the House, and will remain the Question before the House until it is decided. If that is decided in the affirmative, there will, of course, be no possibility of any further Amendment, because the words will have been declared to stand part, but then it will be my duty to put the main Question.
  Mr. Silverman:So that there may be no misunderstanding about it, Mr. Speaker, assuming that the first Question were carried affirmatively, there would still be the possibility of a Division and a vote on the main Question?
  Mr. Speaker: Yes, on the main Question as it stands.
  3.37 p.m.
  Mr. John Strachey: In rising to support the Amendment now before the House, I certainly would not—even if I remotely could—attempt to emulate the sombre eloquence with which the Prime Minister yesterday afternoon displayed to us the consequences of the hydrogen bomb and the hideous situation—it is his adjective—in which the world finds itself today. That is not because I deprecate in any way the use of the right hon. Gentleman's eloquence on this subject. On the contrary, I think that his eloquence in bringing home to the peoples of the world the situation in which they are at present is most valuable.
  Nevertheless, it seems to me that my task today is to look at the actual White Paper on Defence which is before the House and on which the right hon. Gentleman yesterday cast hardly a glance. After all, it is rather an important document, and one which puts out a plan and a programme which are costing us £1,500 million a year, a programme which, if continued in its present form, must ultimately cost the country a much greater annual sum even than that.
  We believe that the programme and plan contained in the White Paper are profoundly unsatisfactory in that after verbally recognising the thermo-nuclear revolution which has taken place in the world's affairs, they then entirely fail to face the military consequence of that fact. We do so upon several grounds. First, the White Paper seems to us to spread many grave illusions about the charac-
  2068
  ter of any future war. It starts off by saying that a hydrogen bomb attack would be an absolutely decisive event; that there would be limitless destruction and all the rest. Then come two paragraphs upon the subject of disarmament, to which I shall return in a moment, and then its real theme, which is that of deterrents. It tells us, as did the Prime Minister, that we are to develop our nuclear programme and nuclear weapons simply and solely in the hope of deterring the outbreak of a third world war.
  Hon. Members on this side of the House do not challenge that, but for heaven's sake let us not deceive ourselves. Let us realise what we are doing and all that we are doing. In doing that, we are doing nothing that can possibly save us if a third world war breaks out. I am afraid that the White Paper contains great illusions upon the subject. Quite early, in paragraph 7, we get the phrase:
  "so organise the country as to enable us to survive and to defeat the enemy …"
  It is quite true that we must do everything humanly possible to organise the country in such a way that it can survive. I do not know what other hon. Members felt about the statement of the Home Secretary upon that subject, but I felt it to be the reverse of reassuring.
  But when the White Paper goes on to speak about "defeating the enemy" is it not using pre-nuclear language? Is it not time that we all faced the fact that if a third world war does break out there will be no question of victory or defeat? There is nothing in a third world war but mass destruction, mass suicide and mass murder for this country and any country which is engaged in it, and we had better face up to that terrible situation at the outset. If hon. Members opposite find it difficult to accept the conclusion from hon. Members in this side of the House, let me quote the words of an entirely independent military commentator who, I should imagine, certainly does not share the political views of my hon. Friends and myself.
  I refer to the military correspondent of the "Economist," who contributes to a most striking defence supplement in this week's issue of that newspaper. He writes:
  "But with H-bombs, there is little or no defence. … For the time being … the

  2069
  certainty of retaliation on a mortal scale renders thermo-nuclear warfare useless as an instrument of national policy. It would almost certainly destroy the social structure of the belligerents and dissolve their régimes."
  This is the same conclusion as that which I have just stated, although it is not put in such brutally frank language.
  Is it not the fact that the development of our own nuclear programme can do only one thing for us? I express it in the same words that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) expressed it during one of the Service Estimates debates last year. The development of our nuclear weapons can put this country in the position of the bee. The bee has a sting, but if it uses that sting it dies. It is quite certain, therefore, that the bee will never use the sting except in the ultimate necessity. On the other hand, as we all know from experience, the possession of the sting by the bee deters us if we are minded to maltreat it in any way. That, no more and no less, is what the development of a nuclear programme can do for this or for any other country today.
  Now I come to the actual defence programme which is sketched in the White Paper and is based upon the hypothesis which I have just stated, which is really common ground to all hon. Members. The astonishing fact is that, having accepted those facts, the White Paper goes on—and it is confirmed in the Service Estimates—to sketch out just the same old programme of the division of very much the same total sum in very much the same way between the three Services. That is surely the most extraordinary non sequitur. It is buttressed by a really preposterous sentence—I can call it no less—in the White Paper.
  Paragraph 33 says:
  "This broad review of the strategic implications of the thermo-nuclear weapon does not radically alter the role of any of the three fighting Services."
  It is almost incredible that that sentence should be there, but it is there, in black and white. Surely everyone in the world except the authors of the White Paper must have known that the thermo-nuclear weapon revolutionises the role of all three fighting Services. [HON. MEMBERS: "Explain the statement."] If hon. Members do not like accepting that conclusion, I shall again quote from the military correspondent of the "Economist."
  2070
  Speaking of those same implications, he says:
  "They mean the end of military strategy as the world has known it; the end of conventional air defence; of vast movements of armies; of battles at sea."
  Then the White Paper tells us that the thermo-nuclear weapon does not change the rôle of the three Services.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Finish the quotation.
  Mr. Strachey: Which quotation? I cannot read the whole of the "Economist" supplement, but what I have read seems to me a very effective quotation.
  Mr. Macmillan: Would the right hon. Gentleman mind reading the sentence which follows that which he has just quoted?
  Mr. Strachey: I have not the full supplement with me, but if anyone likes to supply it I shall do so.
  Mr. Macmillan: In the White Paper, the sentence after that with which he ended runs as follows:
  "Each has a contribution to make to the three main aims of our defence policy—to build up the deterrent against aggression, to fight the cold war, and to prepare for a major war in case that should come."
  Mr. Strachey: Certainly. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that I was going to argue that the Services had no function? I was arguing that the rôle of the Services had been altered. The White Paper says that it has not been. If hon. Members opposite really think that the invention of the hydrogen bomb has made no radical change in the role of the Services, I find it very difficult to believe that I can open their minds to reason at all.
  What does that preposterous sentence really mean? It means that the great military interests are still writing White Papers and Defence Estimates—and they are vested military interests. I do not want to attack them; in many ways they are perfectly legitimate and natural interests. Anybody who has worked with distinguished generals, admirals and air marshals knows that they are very able men, who have given many years of their lives to their own Services. In many respects they are selfless men, and nothing could be more natural than that they should fight to preserve what seems to

  2071
  them to be the interests of their respective Services. That is what has happened, and that is how the present defence programme has been drawn up.
  It cannot be doubted that what is called the agonising reappraisal of the rôle of the Defence Services has not been carried out. I always imagined that it would take a hydrogen bomb to shift the dead weight of military tradition, but we see now that even the hydrogen bomb does not do it. What, then, should be the shape— [Interruption.] —Yes, certainly. If the hon. and gallant Member for Bedford (Captain Soames) will give me a moment to develop my argument he will hear it. He will not agree with it. What should be the shape and size towards which we ought to begin the process of remodelling Her Majesty's Forces?
  This is a very rough approximation, and I will put it like this: we shall find over the years that we have to have, first, for the purposes of deterrence to the hot war, of the third world war, a nuclear weapon and whatever turns out to be the current method of delivering it. Secondly, we shall need conventional land and sea forces mainly designed for what we broadly call the purposes of the cold war and Commonwealth police forces; that is to say, the type of operation of which the Korean War or the Malaya emergency is the type.
  It would be quite unfair to suggest that in one year or in one White Paper the Defence Forces could be completely reshaped in that respect. I am not suggesting that for a moment. I am suggesting that it is profoundly disappointing and disastrous for defence policy that the Defence White Paper does not give us any indication that that is the goal, the objective. It does not give a start in shaping our Defence Forces in that respect, but, on the contrary, says that their role is not radically changed by the arrival of the hydrogen bomb. This matters very much. What we are getting is the old, full, conventional arms programme, and superimposed upon that the attempt to create a nuclear programme and the means of delivering it.
  What are the consequences that we are beginning to see in the defence field? The consequences are that the Government are trying to get something of everything and are succeeding in
  2072
  getting enough of nothing. It is the old business of trying to be strong everywhere and succeeding in being weak everywhere. This is a small island with limited resources. We are living in a world, as the Prime Minister is always telling us, of deadly peril. If we divide up those limited resources fundamentally in such a way that no admiral, general or air air marshal is offended, we shall not get a very happy result.
  That, surely, must be the fundamental explanation of the extraordinary arms failure of the Government, which had been referred to again and again from both sides of the House in this debate. Their inability to get any new arms into the hands of the Armed Forces goes quite beyond any inadequacy or inefficiency in any of the defence Ministers.
  I feel no inclination to attack personally any defence Minister or any Minister of a Service Department in the way that the Prime Minister and his colleagues attacked us when we were in office, or anything approaching the way in which they would now attack us if we had made one-tenth of the mistakes made by the Government. The Prime Minister should remember that this is the third year in which his Government have been in charge of the defence programme. [HON. MEMBERS: "The fourth."] It is in the fourth year. The third year has been completed.
  Does the right hon. Gentleman remember one of those great, characteristic phrases of his, when he described an arms programme? He said, "The first year, nothing. The second year, very little. The third year, as much as you will." Can we possibly describe the results we have today—80 Hunters, no Swifts, 10 Valiants, no new rifles and no guided missiles—[An HON. MEMBER: "And no foreign policy."]—as "as much as you will"?
  Is not the real reason for this extraordinary slowness, which sticks out a mile from the White Paper, that there is no real concept of defence and of the shape and size of the forces at which we are aiming; and, because there is no concept, therefore there are no priorities of one Service over another and one arm over another? There is no real order. There is simply an attempt to get something of everything.

  2073
  Very shortly, we shall be debating the Service Estimates. The paragraphs on manpower in the Defence White Paper which affect the Army are not very encouraging. They are rather dispiriting on the subject of Regular recruiting. They seem to contemplate a two-year period of National Service in perpetuity. The result of this is found to be a large, short-service, moderately trained, moderately equipped, and somewhat static army. Is not this precisely the opposite kind of army that we are likely to need in the new age that will face us?
  I suggest that the thermo-nuclear revolution enormously strengthens the argument for review of the period of National Service and its progressive reduction and, in the end, probably a return to the long service, much smaller, highly trained and highly equipped professional army. I am not saying that we can get that this year or next year, but that it is the obvious goal to which the trend of events should take us.
  I shall be told that something which stands impossibly in the way of that is our commitments. That is one subject on which I can sincerely congratulate the Government. They have done well in getting out of some of the burdensome commitments which this country had. In the nuclear age, I do not understand why we still retain some of our commitments.
  I wish some Minister or other could explain what we are doing in Cyprus, in view of the hydrogen bomb. I visited that country. It is not a question of the political issue. Whatever we do in regard to the political issue it is perfectly easy to retain the bases there, and there may be a case for doing so; but is it right that we should pour £8 million into the building of a new Middle East headquarters? What is it going to administer in Cyprus, and in the Episkopi Base? It is difficult to see why we are squandering our very limited resources on it when we are making such terribly slow progress with the essential defence elements at home.
  The subject of commitments brings me at once to N.A.T.O. and to what are in some ways the most important paragraphs in the entire defence White Paper, paragraphs 22 and 23. There may be some ambiguity, and perhaps the Government will correct me if I am wrong, but, as I read them, those paragraphs, I think quite
  2074
  clearly, lay down the doctrine that if there is any aggression in Europe, and however we are attacked, whether by nuclear weapons or not, we should certainly reply with nuclear weapons. We are committed, it seems, to doing so. That is a very grave decision indeed.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: And quite right.
  Mr. Strachey: My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey) tried to qualify it, and asked the Government to qualify it, by putting it in the form that we should reply with nuclear weapons only on tactical targets. That is a suggestion, but I do not really believe that it is a practicable one. Let us realise that if we do commit ourselves to that view, that in whatever form, to whatever extent, there is aggression we shall certainly reply with nuclear weapons, we risk, to put it at its very least, the fullest counter reply with full nuclear weapons against this country.
  That brings me, naturally of course, to the question of Civil Defence. The two subjects are linked.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Before my right hon. Friend comes to his next point, would he explain what is the attitude of the Opposition, of himself and his right hon. Friends, to the proposition that we should reply with thermo-nuclear weapons to any form of aggression, even though that aggression were limited to aggression with conventional weapons? What is the attitude of the Opposition to that?
  Mr. Strachey:My poor powers of exposition were engaged in giving a reply to that question.
  Mr. H. Fraser: What is the answer?
  Mr. Strachey: I am coming to it. I put it as what seems to me to be the answer. I do not think it is the complete answer, and I do not think that any one of us has the complete answer. However, Lord Montgomery, whatever we think of the rest of his statements, was surely right in linking this question with the question of Civil Defence in this country, and Lord Montgomery—
  Mr. Silverman: Will not my right hon. Friend answer my question?
  Mr. Strachey: I am doing so. My hon. Friend should not be so impatient.
  Lord Montgomery was, I believe, perfectly right in saying that unless effective Civil Defence measures could be produced in this country it was a decision of the utmost gravity—and, I should have thought, a decision of the utmost rashness—to commit ourselves to the use of nuclear weapons whatever the circumstances of an act of aggression in Europe.
  We see what is said in the White Paper about Civil Defence. We may say that a start has been made of some sort. We heard what the Home Secretary said last night. However, if anyone thinks that what is proposed now or is now being done would make any appreciable difference to the casualties which we should suffer under thermo-nuclear attack on this country, he is very much more optimistic than I am. I put this proposition to the Government, that unless they can produce measures which sound, which seem, at any rate, reasonably effective for Civil Defence in this country, then on Lord Montgomery's own showing it is a wildly rash decision to commit ourselves to nuclear reply whatever the circumstances in Europe.
  Would it not be considerably wiser, while developing our nuclear programme, simply to say nothing about the circumstances—hypothetical, and in the future that none of us can exactly foresee—in which those weapons would be used?
  Captain Christopher Soames: Surely the deduction to be drawn from what the right hon. Gentleman has said is that the moment has not yet come when the rôle of conventional forces has changed.
  Mr. Strachey: I may be dull, but I can see absolutely no consequential logic whatever in that interjection. I should have thought that the rôle of the conventional weapons had "radically" changed—to use the word of the White Paper.
  I turn from the Army to the Royal Navy. I do not pretend to have any specialised knowledge of any sort of the Navy, but to the layman, at any rate, it is there that the White Paper least faces the facts of thermo-nuclear weapons. I am not denying for one moment that the big ships which we are building and maintaining today are a powerful force. Of course they are. Is that, however, the
  2076
  question? Is not the real question which we must ask this, whether the resources, the money and the men, being devoted to the building and the upkeep of a big ship Navy today are giving as much security as that possible from the same amount of resources devoted to other purposes? For my part, I find it very hard to believe that they are.
  I am quite aware of the naval arguments of the necessity, which, of course, was a necessity in terms of a long war such as we had to endure in the past, of bringing—what is the amount?—80 million tons a year of supplies to this country through the sea lanes. Let us, however, face the facts. What is the use of bringing 80 million tons a year to a cinder? And that may be the state of things in this island to which we bring the supplies if we neglect or limit the resources for the absolutely critical deterrents which we think now overshadow all other forms of arms.
  According to this White Paper what small shift there is—and there is only a very small shift, if any at all—in the balance of expenditure and, therefore, of effort between the three Services is from the Army to the Royal Air Force, but although the actual amount of expenditure on the Navy is down the percentage of expenditure on the Navy is very slightly up. That seems to me not a tribute to reason but a very great tribute to the power of our admirals.
  I come to the Royal Air Force. There, of course, is the least doubt about the utility of the weapons, but it is just there, in the case of the Royal Air Force, that the Government's failure actually to produce any weapons has been the most marked of all. I do not need to repeat the statements made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) last night on that subject.
  Mr. H. Fraser: All wrong.
  Mr. Strachey: He may have been right or wrong, but his points certainly need answering.
  In sum, is not the Government's extraordinary inability actually to get new weapons into the hands of the Armed Forces a reflection of their inability to have a rational concept of defence—even to grope for one—in the new era? And ought that concept not to be, I repeat, a

  2077
  thermo-nuclear programme and its means of delivery as the only hope of the deterrence of a hot war, and, secondly, conventional forces, much smaller, highly efficient; and a small ship Navy rather than a large ship Navy; and a small, long-service professional Army rather than a large conscript Army, a small Army designed mainly for the purposes of the cold war rather than of a hot war?
  Of course, I shall be told that if we redesigned our forces on those lines we should be taking great risks. Do we think we are not taking risks by not doing that? Do we think we are not taking risks as it is today? I believe that we are taking the most frightful risks by failing to do that. I believe that we are skimping the essentials, I repeat again, in order to have a little bit of everything.
  The Prime Minister told us yesterday that, on his information, he thought we had a period of three or four years during which the Russians would be unable to deliver a nuclear attack upon us. I know nothing about that. I hope the Prime Minister is right. All I would say is that our experience is that hitherto we in the West have consistently underestimated the speed of Russian technical military development. We did it with the original production of the atomic bomb, and the date was much earlier than we thought. We did it over the MIG. 15, which was produced much earlier and much more effectively. It was done most seriously of all by the Americans over the production of the dry hydrogen bomb itself. Therefore, I feel no very great confidence in the Prime Minister's estimate on that subject.
  It seems to me that it is of the utmost urgency to begin the process of reshaping our forces on these lines. Be all that as it may, I would be the first to agree that this is merely the best that we can do in the military field; that the building of national military forces of that general kind, is the best thing we can do in our own field, and that we most certainly must do. But do not let us deceive ourselves into thinking that building national military forces of this character, or of any other character, will in itself save us in the nuclear age. I am reminded of two lines of the great pessimistic poet of the Prime Minister's generation, A. E. Housman:
  2078
  "As I strap on for fighting My sword which will not save"
  In this age, swords by themselves and in themselves will save no nation.
  So I return to the subject which is so transiently referred to in the White Paper—the subject of disarmament, pacification and negotiation. I know very well what a stale sound that word disarmament has in many quarters. In our time, of course, it is perfectly true that disarmament has been very largely the battle-cry of the stage army of the good. Everybody has been for it, and nobody has been willing to do the slightest thing about it.
  If one thinks of disarmament in the abstract and in isolation, then it is a futile and hopeless thing. Disarmament can only come about if it is one part of a general pacification, of general negotiations and of general improvement in the relations of the great Powers. It can only come about if these desperate problems which are rending and racking the world today can be solved. It can only come about if there is a revolution in the fundamental attitude of the great Powers to each other.
  When I think of what the Russian and American Governments mutually have to accept, and put up with from each other, to make nuclear disarmament possible, one is almost apt to despair, but if one does despair, let us remember that one is despairing of the whole future of the human race. After all, are there not some equally strong forces in the world which might be set against these almost insurmountable obstacles which undoubtedly stand in the way of disarmament and pacification today? Is there not an ever-growing, ever-mounting aspiration and impulse in the whole living generation of mankind—in the whole 2,500 million of us—to escape somehow from the nuclear death trap in which we find ourselves?
  I believe that there is. I believe that if one great nation—and Britain, surely, is that nation—were to persist in pacification by all means and at all times as the supreme object of national policies, and if we were to do that steadfastly over the years, these apparently insurmountable obstacles might be surmounted. Surely, the time to begin negotiations is now, for there is one thing which we cannot say in the West: we cannot say that we are met with a stony refusal on the part

  2079
  of our opponents, the Russians, to negotiate.
  Whatever their motive may be, the Russians make offer after offer to negotiate, and, so far, what has the West done with those offers? It has written them off and has ridden them off on the grounds that they are all propaganda. The Foreign Secretary told us that it was a statement and not a Note. It was delivered on the wrong kind of notepaper, apparently. We are told that at this Disarmament Conference the Russians are very indiscreet and let out secrets.
  All these complaints may be true. I do not know, and I do not pretend to know, the motives behind the Russian Government's offers. It may be that they are propaganda. But I would say this, that if we do not take them up, test and try them, we shall find that they are terribly good propaganda. We shall find that the man in the paddy fields—and it is the man in the paddy fields who is decisive in this respect—will say only one thing. He will say that it appears to be the West that refuses to negotiate. Therefore, I specifically demand that the Government should take up consistently each offer that is made, test and develop it, and make counter-offers; it shall do so at the present Disarmament Conference, at the highest level, at the lowest level, and at every level. The Prime Minister would have done it, but they stopped him.
  I always hear ringing in my ears these words, which I think perhaps the Prime Minister will know. They are some words of Petrarch which were used by the ill-starred Walter Rathenau, thirty years ago at the Genoa Conference. I do not think I can correctly pronounce the Italian, but their meaning is:
  "I go on my way crying 'Peace, peace, peace'."
  "Io vo gridando. 'Pace, pace, pace'."
  Is not the rôle of this country, in the years to come, to go on its way through the world, not in weakness, but in its maturity and in its healing sanity, crying, "Peace, peace, peace"?
  4.19 p.m.
  The Minister of Supply (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): As Minister of Supply, I particularly welcome this debate, because, after a period of harassing fire and sniping
  2080
  from the Opposition, it is satisfactory to come to the full engagement.
  I do not think, however, that the fields of fire of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have been very carefully co-ordinated. It is not at all clear to me how many Members of the Opposition agree about how much. Should we have the hydrogen bomb or not? Should we have conventional forces or not? Should we resist an attack by conventional forces only by conventional defence? I do not think that their attitude to these questions was made any clearer by yesterday's debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is the Government's attitude?"] To any hon. Member who asks that question, I would offer the advice that he should read the speech of the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton), who quoted from the White Paper, I think in an approving manner, exactly what our position is on that matter.
  Mr. S. Silverman:Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman, speaking, as he does, for the Government on perhaps the most important occasion in the life-time of the Government, at any rate make the Government's position clear on one all-important matter—that is, the matter on which I asked my right hon. Friend just now: are the Government committed or are they not committed to the proposition which my right hon. Friend quoted yesterday from Field Marshal Montgomery: namely, that this country, in common with N.A.T.O. generally, would resist by thermo-nuclear weapons any aggression, even if that aggression were limited to conventional weapons?
  Mr. Lloyd: I will put the answer shortly by referring the hon. Gentleman to the passage in the White Paper which was quoted by his hon. Friend yesterday.
  The only practical course to follow under these circumstances seems to me to build up a nuclear deterrent and to develop and modernise our conventional forces, and in both these tasks, development and production, the efforts of the Ministry of Supply are vital. I therefore propose to deal, in the main, with the latter part of the Amendment, the so-called "grave and admitted deficiencies" and the expenditure of the £4,000 million.
  I want to say something to the House of the achievements of British scientists, technicians, managers and craftsmen in

  2081
  the establishments and factories over which I, as Minister of Supply, have control or with which the Ministry has dealings. I propose, if I have time, to say something about guided weapons, aircraft, aero-engines, radar and electronics, tanks, guns, vehicles and ammunition. I concede that those who believe that all defence expenditure is a waste of time will not be very interested, but I believe that they are a very small minority of the House and, indeed, of the country.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Not of the country.
  Mr. Lloyd: I think most people are anxious to hear the facts.
  Before I come to these topics, may I say a word about the speech of the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey)? About disarmament: if I may introduce a personal note, I have been negotiating with the Russians upon these matters for three years, and on 6th December I made a speech in detail showing that again and again Her Majesty's Government have taken the initiative in putting these proposals forward to the Soviet Union.
  If there is any sincerity in this talk on disarmament at present, the Soviet Government have only to make the discussions going on at Lancaster House a success. Mr. Vyshinsky said that they would accept the Anglo-French proposals as a basis, and I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman might have given this country and the French Government a little credit for having put those proposals forward. If the Soviet Government will only discuss these proposals in a reasonable manner—and I put definite questions at the discussion with Mr. Vyshinsky in the General Assembly at the United Nations—then progress can be made and can be made quickly on a practical scheme for disarmament. It is not enough just to say,
  "Peace, peace, peace."
  Turning to matters within the field of the Ministry of Supply, I will begin, if I may, with the supply of military aircraft. May I remind the House of certain basic factors? The first of these is the rate of advance in aeronautical achievement. The Wright brothers' first flight in 1903 was at a speed of 30 miles per hour. Twenty-eight years later we won the Schneider Trophy with a
  2082
  speed of 340 miles per hour. Today, aircraft have been produced which can do the speed of sound at sea level—761 miles per hour. It has taken roughly fifty years to get from scratch to the speed of sound, but it looks as though it will take only another seven to ten years to develop fighting machines which will go two to two-and-a-half times the speed of sound.
  Secondly, it is one thing to make flying machines which will travel at these tremendous speeds and another thing to produce a fighting machine. I have a feeling that when the man in the street hears that a machine has travelled at twice the speed of sound he at once feels that the Royal Air Force ought to be equipped with such an aircraft and he does not realise that those speeds have probably been achieved by a research aircraft carrying only a pilot and a minimum of equipment, an aircraft perhaps being lifted off the ground by another aircraft, flown at a high speed for a short time and then glided down to a runway ten miles long.
  Producing a weapon system, that is to say an aircraft which can fight at such a speed with the appropriate armament, radar and wireless, capable of combat manoeuvre, with reasonable endurance, forming a stable gun platform and able to take off and land at any reasonably-sized airfield is a totally different matter.
  Mr. E. Shinwell:When did the right hon. and learned Gentleman discover that?
  Mr. Lloyd:The third factor is the increasing complexity of military aircraft themselves. A pre-war bomber carried less than 150 lb. in weight of radio and electrical equipment. The latest bomber carries 9,000 lb. weight. The length of electrical cable in a modern fighter is about six miles, compared with two miles in a last-war type. The figures for a bomber are 19½ miles compared with six miles. The number of radio valves has risen from 50 in wartime to 1,000, and in a fighter from 20 to 140.
  And all this equipment has to operate with greater reliability and under much more difficult conditions of temperature and stress. The electric power required by a bomber in the last war was 10 kilo-Watts, and in a modern bomber it is 90 kiloWatts. In 1940, a fighter weighed 2¾ tons. A modern fighter may weigh today four or five times as much.

  2083
  This has greatly increased the complexity, and the much higher performances required involve new problems in aerodynamics, structures and other fields. The approach to and the progress beyond the sound barrier, and no doubt in due course the so-called heat barrier, is one of the most serious problems facing those designing aircraft.
  Another basic factor is the length of time which it takes to develop a new breed of aircraft. To take an example from twenty years ago, the evolution of the Spitfire began with the Schneider Trophy monoplane of 1927–31. The specification which led up to the Spitfire was issued to industry in 1935 and large-scale production was not achieved until 1940. The corresponding period in the case of the Hunter was from 1948, when the specification was issued, to 1955.
  To take a modern bomber, the Canberra, which was not an aeronautical revolution but, because of the application of jet power, was a very important advance, it was conceived in 1944 and it went into service in1951. The specification of the Valiant was issued in 1948 and it is now just beginning to enter service. To take an example from the other side of the Atlantic, it has recently been announced that the contract for the B52 bomber was placed in 1946, and it is not yet fully in service.
  One of the major matters which is constantly agitating everybody on both sides of the House, I should have thought, is how to reduce that time. It is always possible to achieve greater speed of development but at the expense of quality. It is quite true that the Russians appear to have produced the MIG 15 remarkably quickly after British Nene engines reached them in 1947, but it is not known for what period of time before that the aircraft had been designed and developed. But the MIG 15, despite some good aspects of performance, has plenty of defects. As everybody knows, it did not do at all well in Korea against the Sabre.
  We have been considering ways to reduce this time without sacrificing quality, and I propose to deal with some of them, if I may, a little later—shorter steps in design, the development batch procedure and a firm policy on modification. But the broad conclusions which
  2084
  I have formed is that it is impossible to avoid having to plan six or seven or eight years ahead, and this involves the difficulty of long-range assessments of the nature and quality of a potential threat and it also involves equally difficult judgments of what may be technically possible within such a short space of time.
  The positive action begun by one Administration may not bear fruit during their period of office, although it may well be that their sins of omission or commission may handicap their successors. It will also be seen that we have not unlimited resources in this country. The field for manoeuvre is restricted, and when a large development and production programme is well under way the scrapping of it is a very serious matter.
  Against that background of the speed of aeronautical advance, the complexity of modern aircraft, and the length of time required for development, I want to examine Her Majesty's Government's record over the last few years. I put these points forward not to make excuses, but because they are the background and it is only fair to the Opposition, who had responsibility for so much of the time, that they should be understood by everybody.
  I confess that I was a little surprised at the choice of players for the team being fielded by the Opposition this evening. I understand the great indictment and culmination of this major political campaign is that the Government have failed to produce military aircraft. It is odd, to say the least of it, that the Opposition have dropped two ex-Ministers, the former Minister of Supply and the former Secretary of State for Air, who held the primary responsibility. I suppose they are handicapped by knowing something about the matter under discussion.
  Those two former Ministers have not been asked to play, but, instead, the forward line has been reinforced by two rather erratic performers, the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West. Perhaps it was the only way to get the right hon. Gentleman into the Lobby in favour of the Amendment. But there is one player still undisclosed in the forward line, and that is who is playing outside left? Is it the hon. Member for

  2085
  Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), or is it someone higher up? Perhaps we will learn in the course of the debate.
  What is the charge against us? The Opposition cannot have it both ways. They cannot smirk smugly when anything good is said about British aircraft or equipment and claim the credit, and, at the same time, say we have no defence, no aircraft. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) showed signs of realising where all this propaganda was going to lead him, and he was much more cautious than some of his colleagues. But the general case was put up by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West on 23rd February when he put this supplementary question to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence:
  "Should not the Minister be pleased that no formal machinery exists to allocate the aircraft, as no aircraft exists either."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd February, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 1255.]
  There was no uncertainty or ambiguity about the hon. Member for Aston for, quite clearly, at the end of his speech yesterday, he said:
  "The Government, on their own showing, have failed in production. …Today, we live in a completely defenceless island. … They have spent some £700 million on the development of aircraft and have practically no aircraft."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 2009.]
  That is the case which is put against us.
  Just a word about the situation when we came into office in November, 1951. There were an astounding number of aircraft on order. Many of those orders were placed since the Korean War had broken out, and they were placed in an emergency. I do not think that anyone could complain about any panic action taken if it were taken in an emergency, but, looking back, one wonders how they thought it was financially or physically possible for such a programme to be achieved.
  Mr. R. H. S. Grossman: That is what we said.
  Mr. Lloyd:There were some people who said at the time that such a programme was beyond the financial and physical resources of this country, but I will keep out of that argument.
  Mr. A. C. Manuel: The right hon. and learned Gentleman was in it.
  Mr. Lloyd: A certain amount of sorting out and tidying up had to be done when we came to office. There was considerable overloading and in the light of the international situation and the country's economic capabilities progress had to be reviewed and changes made. As I told the House the other day, of over 1,000 Venoms ordered in the first months of 1951, 750 were cancelled. To take another example, of the Canberras ordered before November, 1951, about one-third were cancelled. I am stating facts. I am not making any complaints.
  Now we come to the production record since this Government came to office. The indictment is that we have produced no aircraft, but between November, 1951, and the end of January, 1955, the total number of aircraft delivered to the Services was 5,500, and if the estimated deliveries for February and March are added the total is nearly 6,000.
  Mr. Shinwell: Tell us the types.
  Mr. Lloyd: I will in a minute.
  It is spread fairly thinly over the three years. The types supplied include Canberras, Meteors, Vampires, Venoms, Sea Hawks, and Sea Venoms. About one-eighth are jet trainers, the vital backing to a jet propelled front line, and they include over 200 Hunters. The super-priority scheme which we introduced in 1952 undoubtedly contributed greatly to the results achieved by removing bottlenecks at a time when the supplies of many raw materials were extremely scarce.
  The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said yesterday that only recently, and certainly never before, had he heard that super-priority had been extended to the Canberras or to other bombers. He said that all that my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Air had done was to make some very vague reference to it in another place in April, 1952. What my noble Friend said on 3rd April, 1952, was:
  "The super-priority system will cover, in addition to these three fighters, the Canberra, the Valiant and the equipment for the control and reporting system."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 3rd April, 1952; Vol. 175, c. 1404.]
  Mr. George Wigg: At least the Minister will admit that the Prime Minister told the House of Commons that super-priority applied to fighters. He said not one word about bombers. The House of Commons was not told that fact until yesterday.
  Mr. Lloyd:My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was dealing with fighter defences when he spoke, but how the hon. Member for Dudley could say that my noble Friend in another place made only a vague reference to this matter I cannot tell, because it could not be more clear. The achievements—
  Mr. Shinwell: Achievements?
  Mr. Lloyd:—of the British aircraft industry in delivering 6,000 aircraft in this period of three years have been achieved at the same time as over £173 million worth of aircraft and aircraft equipment was exported in the period 1st November, 1951–31st January, 1955. It may well be contended—
  Mr. F. Beswick Mr. F. Beswick (Uxbridge) rose—
  Mr. Lloyd: No, I will not give way, I have a long speech to make.
  It is contended that many of the aircraft delivered are obsolete aircraft. If that is true one wonders why they were ever ordered. For example, if the Venom night fighter is as ineffective as some hon. Members wish to represent, why were 400 of them ordered by the late Administration in 1951. Over 200 were ordered in September and October, 1951, at a time when delivery dates were well known to extend up to the middle of 1954.
  Mr. Beswick Mr. Beswick rose—
  Mr. Lloyd: I think it would be generally conceded by both sides of the House—
  Mr. Beswick: Will the Minister give way for a minute?
  Mr. Lloyd:—that it is not much use ordering aircraft unless, as a type, they will remain effective after delivery for about four years.
  Mr. Beswick: Will the Minister now give way?
  Mr. Lloyd: The previous Government, therefore, presumably thought that this aircraft would be of value at least up to
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  the middle of 1958; and I think they were quite right to think that.
  Mr. Beswick: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles Mac-Andrew): If the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member must resume his seat.
  Mr. Lloyd: In fact, they are not obsolete aircraft. The majority of them are useful interim types. Some, like the Canberra and the Hunter, are very much better than that. It may be said, of course, that every aircraft delivered into service is obsolescent. It is in every country, in the sense of getting out of date at the time it goes into service since there is, or there should be under development its successor. There are many people in this country who do what the Prime Minister referred to yesterday, that is, compare what we have now with what a potential enemy will have in three or four years' time.
  I remind the House again of the limitations within which this production has been achieved. The White Paper on the Supply of Military Aircraft refers to some of them—the limitations upon the research and development programme, the decision that 1957 should be the planning date, the decision about manned supersonic flight, the fact that no interim swept-wing fighter was developed for operational service and the ordering of only a few prototypes.
  In 1950, 156,000 people were employed on the manufacture and repair of aircraft. In 1952, that figure had risen to 200,000, an increase of almost one-third, and that at a time of full employment. This is a skilled industry and a dilution to that extent in two years meant tremendous problems for both management and labour. Anybody who knows anything about industry will realise the force of that fact
  In some quarters it has been suggested that what is now needed is a kind of "Big Brother" Beaverbrook to hustle on and energise our production. That is a complete misunderstanding of our needs. At present, our difficulty is essentially one of development and not of production, as my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) pointed out last night. Of course, there are

  2089
  deficiencies in our defence, in the sense that there are things which we should like to have but which we either cannot have or have not yet got, but that is quite different from saying that we are defenceless. We are far from defenceless against the present threat.
  As far as bombers are concerned, the Canberra light bomber came into service in 1951. Its success is well known and is confirmed by the American adoption of it for the B.57.
  Mr. Arthur Henderson: I am quite sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not want it to go out of the House that the decision of the present Government to cancel orders for 750 Venoms and 300 or 400 Canberras, to which he referred, was taken because of any lack of faith in these types of aircraft. Will he make it clear that it was taken because, as an alternative to "Plan H," which was operating in 1951 when the change of Government took place and which provided for a very large front line of between 3,000 and 4,000 aircraft, decisions were taken, rightly or wrongly, by the present Government to have a front line strength much lower than that of Plan H and, therefore, a good many of these aircraft were not necessary and that is why the orders were cancelled? I should be grateful if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would make that point clear.
  Mr. Lloyd: The cancellation certainly does not represent any lack of faith in the Canberra or the Venom and I was making no criticism of the fact that the orders had been given. I was saying that some of them had to be cancelled.
  I am sure that the performance of the Canberra is considerably better than that of which its Russian equivalent is believed to be capable. The Valiant is now entering squadron service with the R.A.F. Although less advanced in design and performance than the other two V-bombers, it will add greatly to the United Kingdom's deterrent strength. As a medium bomber, the Valiant's performance is superior to that of any comparable aircraft in service.
  The Victor and the Vulcan are progressing well both in development and production and, before long, I hope will materially reinforce the deterrent, since their performance will be substantially
  2090
  superior to that of the Valiant. I have seen the production lines of both the Valiant and the Vulcan and I am certain that every possible step is being taken to press on with the production of these two aircraft.
  In the sphere of day fighters, I believe that the Hunter is now over its main development troubles. Some R.A.F. squadrons are equipped with Hunters and some are being equipped. The hon. Member for Aston made some adverse comments about the Hunter yesterday. He said that he understood
  "that the Ministry of Supply has now told the firm to cut down the building of this aircraft from 30 a month to 25 a month until certain alterations and processes are completed."
  On that piece of information the hon. Member is over two years out of date.
  The second point which he made was that
  "It has never had adequate supplies of parts, and super-priority has not been able to give it even a smooth flow of copper piping."
  The hon. Member is wrong about that. There have been no shortages which have affected production.
  He said that there had been too many modifications and that
  "There have been 325 modifications of the Hunter Mark I alone."
  That is more or less accurate. It is a normal process of development to make these modifications. During the development of the Canberra up to 1951, 323 modifications were made. Anybody who knows anything at all about it, knows that these processes go on all the time.
  The hon. Member's fourth point was that
  "When this plane first flew in the autumn of 1951, it was discovered that the air brakes were completely unsatisfactory, and it was not until last summer, nearly three years later, that manufacture began on the modification to make the air brakes work."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 2002.]
  The inference to be drawn from that is that nothing was done in the intervening period. In fact, three different types of air brakes were tried until one was found which was successful, and that is the one which is incorporated now in the aircraft.
  The hon. Member's fifth comment was about the modification to the wing. This modification is an arrangement for carrying extra fuel. It is not true to describe it as a modification of the wing, but it

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  enables later marks to perform certain alternative rôles. It is part of the normal process of development within the specification.
  Then we come to the question of the Hunter's guns and whether they fire or not. The problem of engine stalling caused by the firing of the guns has been very much exaggerated. In the first place, it affects significantly only certain marks of Hunter and those are not the latest marks. It is only liable to happen in certain conditions of extreme altitude. The nature of the problem is well understood and measures to eliminate it are well advanced.
  If war were to begin tomorrow the Hunter could go into action as an extremely effective fighter, comparing favourably with any other in general service in any other country and capable of dealing adequately with anything any enemy can send against us in the next few years. I submit, therefore, that the campaign by certain Members of the Opposition to denigrate this fine aircraft has been proved a complete flop.
  Mr. Woodrow Wyatt: The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that my information was two years out of date. It was given to me two days ago by a deputation of shop stewards from the Hunter factory [Laughter.]. I do not know why it is thought funny that men who carry out the work on the aircraft should give accurate information. They themselves had been told only last week by the firm that the Ministry of Supply had told the firm that it was to cut down its aim of manufacturing 30 aircraft a month to 25 aircraft a month until June. That was the excuse given to them by the firm for various rearrangements which it was making.
  These men also told me that they did not have a sufficient supply and flow of copper piping to carry out much of the work which was required on the aircraft. They also gave me much of the other information which I gave yesterday to the House. It would be a very good thing if the Minister of Supply sometimes looked behind the information which he receives from managements, who are in receipt of comfortable subsidies from the Government, and really found out what was going on.
  Mr. Lloyd: I do not know what the hon. Member was told by the shop stewards.
  Mr. Wyatt: I have just told the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Member did not reveal the source of his information at the time which would have enabled me to check what was alleged to have been said, but on such information as he gave yesterday I have made my checks this morning, and I understand that what I have told the House is accurate and in accordance with the facts.
  The Fleet Air Arm is almost entirely equipped with turbine-engined aircraft. The Sea Hawk and Sea Venom, although interim types, are capable of giving a good account of themselves as day and all-weather fighters, respectively. The Sea Hawk is already in service in substantial numbers and the Sea Venom is coming into Service in increasing numbers. The Gannet is also in squadron service with the Royal Navy and is operating satisfactorily. It is extremely well-equipped for its role of submarine detecting and hunting.
  Now, I come to the Swift. I will endeavour to give the House the fullest possible information about this aircraft. As was explained in the White Paper on aircraft production, Messrs. Vickers Super marine had completed by 1948 a research aircraft with a Nene engine. That had not been taken up by the Government for development as an operational aircraft. When the Korean war broke out and the previous Government were looking about for combat aircraft, they decided—I have never failed to say that I think they were right to do so—to develop a swept-wing fighter out of this research aircraft. They decided, however, to take advantage of the extra power offered by the Avon engine and to substitute that engine for the Nene. The structure of the research aircraft had been designed for the possibility of carrying four 20-millimetre Hispano cannon in the wings.
  When the then Government ordered, in 1950, an operational version of this aircraft, they decided to put four 30-millimetre Aden cannon into the nose of the aircraft. These decisions—I quarrel with none of them—about a different engine, the introduction of an armament quite different from that for which struc-

  2093
  tural provision had been made, together with the installation of the full range of equipment needed for operational use, obviously made it necessary radically to alter the original design.
  The Government were told that the first mark of the aircraft could be built to take only two Aden guns but that after that a second mark could be produced to carry four Aden guns. It was also early decided that a third mark could be produced in which the engine would have a device known as re-heat to give a greater rate of climb; re-heat, whereby additional fuel is burned in the tail-pipe to add thrust. In the course of the development of these versions, it was concluded that better control would be obtained by having a variable incidence tail, and it was decided to incorporate that in the Mark IV.
  At the time that these early decisions were taken, only two prototypes were ordered. The first production order was placed in the same month as the order for the prototype—that is, in November, 1950. This, indeed, was an aircraft ordered off the drawing board with a vengeance, and it was largely to these early decisions that the intolerable delays to which the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) referred have been due.
  Work was put in hand. It was not until May, 1953, that the first aircraft representative of the Swift Mark IV flew, and this was the mark to which the greater part of the orders for Swifts for the Royal Air Force relate. I do not think any reasonable person would suggest that any order should have been cancelled before that date.
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: I should like this to be made quite clear. I gather from what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said so far that he has endorsed every single decision and step taken by the previous Administration in deciding which aeroplanes were to be ordered and when they were ordered.
  Mr. Lloyd: I have said that I did not quarrel with the decision about the Swift. I think that the previous Government were quite right to go for an insurance, to go for the Hunter and the Swift. I only hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be equally fair to those who come after him.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Is it not also a fact that the present Government ordered quite a large number of Swifts after they came into office?
  Mr. Lloyd: It is quite true that the number now being built, or recently being built, was brought up in, I think, August, 1952, by the present Government. It was not quite as large as the order of the previous Government. There was a later order, which was not put into execution, early in 1953, and it was in May, 1953, that the first representative aircraft flew.
  I will now say what happened after that date. May and June, 1953, were occupied by flight testing. In July, there was an engine compressor blade failure, which caused all the Swifts to be grounded for two months. Testing was resumed in September and in November it was possible to send an aircraft to Boscombe Down. That aircraft had the misfortune to crash, and the pilot was killed. It was replaced in December by the next available aircraft off the production line, and Boscombe Down was able to begin its acceptance trials.
  In January, 1954, there was a limited release of the Marks I and II to enable crews to get practical experience of the aircraft as early as possible. That was done in the expectation of substantial improvements in later marks, and one Royal Air Force squadron was equipped with Marks I and II. Continuous testing and trials went on with a view to curing a major defect—tightening in turns—which had been found at Boscombe Down. This involved the re-design of the wing, and this re-designing took until October, 1954.
  There would have been nothing very abnormal about these troubles in the development of the aircraft had they taken place on a development batch. The difficulty was that the production orders had already been placed, to give a sufficient output of aircraft to enable the Royal Air Force to be equipped speedily should the aircraft prove to be successful, and should it be accepted for service.
  It has already been announced that Marks I to III of the Swift will not be used operationally. About 60 aircraft of those three marks have been produced. Although improvements have recently been made to the Mark IV, it is not considered that more than a limited number

  2095
  of them should be completed. Further Hunters will be ordered to replace the cancelled Swifts.
  It may be said that the extent of the disappointment with the Swift should have been realised earlier and that steps should have been taken at an earlier stage to reduce the money spent upon it. Such steps were taken. Follow-on orders were not placed, as they would have been placed had the development been proceeding with complete success. The manufacturers themselves did not begin production of the total number ordered and during the past few months, in close consultation with us, they have been reducing the industrial effort on the Swift with a view to saving public money in case a later cancellation should be necessary.
  As I pointed out earlier, when a programme of this magnitude is begun and is well under way, it is most serious to make a major cancellation. In these matters it is always necessary to rely upon the best technical advice available, and it was only in February this year that those whose responsibility it is to give that advice were able to say that it was no longer likely that within a reasonable time—that is a very important point—the Swift could be made to match the Hunter in its performance as an intercepter fighter.
  To sum up, the production of this aircraft was ordered off the drawing board, only two prototypes were ordered, there was no development batch, and a number of accidents retarded the development processes. There is one further point. When I came to my present office in October, the Hunter, as well as the Swift, was still in difficulties, and the decisive factor, apart from what I have said, about the Swift in the Government's present decision has been the success of the Hunter, which was not fully assured until the end of last year.
  Of course, it is an unsatisfactory story. Any comparative failure is deeply to be regretted, but it is most foolish to believe that every plan will succeed. I believe that the United States Navy cancelled over £300 million worth of orders only the other day because aircraft did not come up to expectations in aerodynamics. It is impossible to embark on a programme of the magnitude of that
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  which right hon. Gentlemen opposite began, and which we have carried on, without there being comparative failures of this sort. But the decisive element in the decision that has been taken has been the success of the Hunter.
  Mr. Shinwell: This is a very interesting story, but would the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that in view of the difficulties, which must have been apparent to the then Government, because of what he has said about the lack of development of the Swift, and because of the Korean emergency, we did the right thing by ordering Sabres, F86s, to deal with that situation? The right hon. and learned Gentleman has not said a word about that.
  Mr. Lloyd: I think the right hon. Gentleman was quite right to do that. I hope he will be equally generous in praising the decisions taken by us. As I indicated earlier, we seem to get on a little better in these matters with the two right hon. Gentlemen who know something about them than with many other hon. Members.
  When I said that we endorsed every decision taken by the previous Government, I must make a qualification with regard to the number of orders for prototypes, but I agree that it is easy to be wise after the event.
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: Three and a half years.
  Mr. Lloyd: I am touched, in what is a motion of censure on the Government, by the attempts of the right hon. Gentleman to secure approbation of what he did.
  Mr. Strauss: On this important question of the number of prototypes ordered, the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that that was one matter on which he disagreed with the decisions of the previous Government. Will he not agree that until last year this was the accepted practice of all Governments, accepted by all technicians, and it was never challenged when we ordered two prototypes?
  Mr. Shinwell: Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman replies, is he aware that at no time have I sought any approbation for what we have done? I would remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman that only the other day, in

  2097
  reply to a Question I put, he accorded unsought approbation. Moreover, I had in mind all the time what the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister used to say of us when we were in the Government, and now I discover that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has to concede what was well known to the people inside, namely, that we had done everything possible in the then circumstances—[Laughter.] I do not detect anything remarkably humorous in the fact that the right hon. and learned Gentleman at long last has conceded the point that no mistakes were made by the previous Government.
  Mr. Lloyd: That is a very different proposition. I am not quite certain what verdict the right hon. Gentleman wants—whether guilty, not guilty, or just not proven.
  Mr. Shinwell: It is what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said. He cannot try to have it both ways.
  Mr. Lloyd: What I said was that in the situation of 1950—and there was a good deal of history before 1950—in the light of decisions which had been taken beforehand, at that time the Government were right to do what they did to try to get a Hunter and a Swift as quickly as they could. With regard to the point which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall mentioned, I will come to that, if I am allowed, a little later.
  Mr. David Logan: I thank the Minister for giving way. Perhaps I can now get something that I did not get yesterday. Incidentally, there seem to be superior persons in this House who think that, when they get up, they ought to be answered. I have been here for 25 years, and yesterday I had to go through the ordeal of cries of "Order, order," by people who knew less about the subject than I knew. The question I want to ask is pertinent. Do the Government really think—whether there has been a deficiency in armaments or not—that they are now on the right lines as regards equipment, and are therefore able to give protection to the British people and to the people of Europe through the steps that they are taking today? That is all I am concerned about.
  2098
  I am not concerned about my generation but about that of my grandchildren. My day, like that of the Prime Minister, is very short now, and there will not be many future birthdays. I want to know if we are now doing the best we can to ensure full liberty. When we approach other people they ought to be made conscious of their responsibility. They may say they are willing to sit down at a table and sort things out but, if they are not willing, then we must protect ourselves. So I ask the Minister, are the Government giving proper protection? Is it to be with bombs or is it to be with bladders?
  Mr. Lloyd: I am very glad indeed to give way to one who, if I may say so, is a very old friend. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is my honest conviction that we are taking the necessary steps, and that this country is at present capable of defending itself against what a potential enemy is capable of directing against it. That is my honest opinion.
  Before I leave that aspect of the matter, may I deal with a point which was taken up about defence by night? I admit fully that our Venom and Meteor night fighters are interim types, that they are slower and more lightly armoured than the latest fighters, but they are a great advance on their predecessors—which is no doubt why the late Government placed the orders for them. Other countries may have aircraft capable of taking the air by night and which may be in some respects superior. However, in the assessment of air defence by night, various factors have to be taken into account.
  First, with regard to the aircraft themselves, one has to consider the crew carried—in our conditions two-seaters are much more effective than single-seaters—the type of engine, the maximum speed at various heights, the rate of climb, the armament, and the rate and the weight of fire, the radar equipment carried in the aircraft itself, including range and sweep, the ground equipment directing the aircraft towards its target, the control and warning system, and the serviceability of all these items of equipment. There is also obviously the point of the geographical extent of the area to be defended, and the ease with which resources can be deployed to defend that area.
  Taking all these matters into consideration, I repeat categorically that it is the

  2099
  view of the Government, on the best advice obtainable, that the statement in the White Paper is a truthful and accurate account of the present situation, however irritating and unpalatable it may be to certain people.
  Now I pass to the subject of aero engines. Not much has been said so far about them. I should have thought that those who spend so much time and energy in drawing attention, not always on a factual basis, to the areas of development where we have encountered difficulties, might have had the fairness to refer also to the almost unqualified success of our aero engines. In the 10 years following the introduction of the turbo-jet into service, power has increased six-fold, specific fuel consumption has been reduced by a quarter, specific weight—weight per lb. of thrust—has been halved. Thrust per square foot of frontal area has increased six-fold, and service life between overhauls has increased three-fold.
  The pre-eminence of British gas-turbine engines is perhaps best shown by the fact that about 20 manufacturing licences have been negotiated in nine different countries for nine different engines. More are pending, and American manufacturers have taken options to manufacture the majority of United Kingdom turbine engines. Several different British designed turbine engines have been adopted for service with the United States forces.
  We are being blamed for mess and muddle in the production field, but I chink these facts ought to be known. Since 1st November, 1951, more than 12,300 engines will have been delivered for use in military aircraft in this country, and this has been achieved at the same time as intensive development of aero engines for civil aircraft and for sale overseas.
  I now come to the question of guided weapons—
  Mr. Wyatt:Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman leaves that point—
  Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman refused to give way during his speech.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member must resume his seat.
  Mr. Wyatt: On a point of order—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker:There can be no point of order on that really, but I will listen to the hon. Member.
  Mr. Wyatt: The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he was not going to give way to me because I had not given way. Last night I gave way twice. 1 could not give way any more because I had agreed to sit down at a certain time.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman knows perefectly well that that is not a point of order. Mr. Selwyn Lloyd.
  Mr. Wyatt:The right hon. and learned Gentleman has now given way to me. At the beginning of his speech, he admitted that there had been certain deficiencies with regard to Government planning in relation to modifications to aircraft. He told us he was going to say something about the new system for putting modifications into effect and checking too great a number. He has said nothing about it. Will he do so?
  Mr. Lloyd: That shows how wrong I was in trying to be fair to the hon. Gentleman. I ought not to have given way to him. I shall be coming to that point.
  With regard to guided weapons, we have none in operational service at the present time. It has been stated that the United States has some guided weapons. Is that a "grave and admitted" deficiency. Is that one of the matters for which the Opposition are blaming the Government? Yes? No? Or do they not know?
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that most of the criticism that has come to him about the lack of aircraft and the delays and so forth has come from his own side of the House? The criticism has come from hon. Members opposite just as much as it has from this side of the House.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware—by the way, I wish the Prime Minister would not always assume that nobody but himself knows anything about this subject—that 18 months ago—[Interruption]—why cannot the Prime Minister be quiet for a change?—the present Minister of Works came to the House and asked permission to make a statement on guided missiles, in the course of which he pretended that the guided missiles were not only in course

  2101
  of development but would soon be in production? That is on the record 18 months ago. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) asked the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) a question on the subject, and he repeated that statement. Therefore, we are entitled to ask the Government where the guided missiles are.
  Mr. Lloyd: I take it that we now really have two answers to my question. The former Minister of Supply, the right hon. Member for Vauxhall, is not blaming the Government for an "admitted deficiency" in guided missiles, but the right hon. Member for Easington is.
  Mr. Shinwell: We are asking about it.
  Mr. Lloyd: This is a motion of censure for "grave and admitted deficiencies." I am asking whether this is one of the "grave and admitted deficiencies." Does not the right hon. Gentleman know what deficiencies he is talking about? He nods his head, and so he means "Yes." Then this is one of the "admitted deficiencies". I shall, therefore, proceed on the assumption that this is one of the matters for which we are being blamed.
  I do not propose to praise or to blame the decisions of the previous Government in this field. It may have been right to do practically nothing at all about guided weapons until 1947. It may have been right to decide, in 1947, that only research should be undertaken, and that that research should be done almost entirely in Government establishments. It may have been right not to place the development contracts until 1949 and then only for two weapons. It may have been right for right hon. Gentlemen opposite to leave office in October, 1951, without any production contracts placed and without even development contracts for certain important types of weapon. It may have been right to lag back three or four years behind the United States. It may have been right in relation to the circumstances of national resources to do all those things.
  However, what is wrong is for those who have been responsible for all that to come along and blame this Government because we have not got guided weapons in service. The hon. Member for Aston talked about certain American cities being ringed with sites for guided weapons. He
  2102
  knows, or ought to know, that the development contract for that weapon was placed in 1946—nine years ago. That is the length of time. One cannot get guided weapons by making speeches and asking questions about them. There has to be research. Industrial resources have to be built up. There have to be development contracts, and protracted tests and trials have to take place, and then there have to be production contracts.
  We are now making reasonably good progress, the pace of which has been governed by the decisions of six or seven years ago. Technically, the programme is going well, although there are many difficult problems and snags ahead. There is a useful exchange with the United States under the arrangements made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he held my present office.
  In spite of the lead of the United States in this field, I do not think the lead has been increased. I have seen for myself some of the work that has been done. I have met the leading representatives of the major firms which are engaged in the task, and I have surveyed the whole programme with them. They are satisfied with their capacity to carry it out in spite of the other growing demands upon them.
  I am anxious about one matter, and I will tell the House frankly what it is. It is the capacity to carry through without delay the extensive trials and tests which will be necessary. I think the capacity for that has to be enlarged. We are most grateful for the help which has been given to us by the Australian Government over the all-important range at Woomera. I assure the House that in this important field there is a sense of real urgency. Production orders have been placed for one weapon. I expect other orders to follow this year. Although my advisers and I sigh for the lost years, every effort is being made to achieve success.
  Mr. Shinwell: Cheap. Disgraceful.
  Mr. G. R. Strauss:The right hon. and learned Gentleman is now bringing in his advisers and trying to criticise the Opposition by suggesting that his technical advisers, his civil servants, are complaining of the action or inaction of the previous Government. That is really a very serious thing, parliamentary, to do, quite apart from the general constitutional

  2103
  position. Is he not aware that the actions which we took on these highly technical matters were on the advice of, apparently, the same technicians and technical advisers who are now regretting the advice which they gave to a previous Administration? Is not that a ridiculous situation?
  Mr. Wyatt: Withdraw.
  Mr. Lloyd: The right hon. Gentleman has not correctly quoted what I said. I said that I was not going to praise or blame the decisions that were taken. I also said that it was wrong for those who had been responsible for those decisions to blame this Government for having no guided weapons in service. The reasons for the earlier decisions may have been right; the years may have been lost for reasons which are right, having regard to the national resources.
  Mr. A. Henderson Mr. A. Henderson rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Minister has not given way.
  Mr. Henderson: The Minister has now sat down.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think the Minister sat down because I rose to my feet. Was that so?
  Mr. Lloyd: Yes, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I will give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Mr. Henderson: I do not want to raise an unnecessary point, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman has made a statement to which, if it were made by a Labour Minister, he would have taken the greatest exception. I challenge him to produce any evidence that any of the advisers in the Air Ministry came to me with propositions for the development of guided missiles and that they were turned down. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has talked about the "wasted years." He has now brought in the advisers. I ask him to withdraw his statement that the advisers that he has today stated to him that they were blocked by the inaction of the previous Government.
  Mr. Lloyd: I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has completely misconceived what I said. I said that my advisers and I sigh for the lost years. That is a plain statement of
  2104
  fact. We wish that we were further on with this programme.
  Hon. Members: Twister.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I hope that hon. Members will not shout "twister" across the Chamber. It is most disorderly.
  Mr. Lloyd: It is extraordinary how certain hon. Members opposite are willing to give it, but are very reluctant to take it.
  The development of the guided weapons effort can best be measured by a financial comparison. For the financial year 1955–56 we should spend in industry on the guided weapons programme 10 times more than in 1951 and 100 times more than in 1949.
  Now I come to electronics, another aspect of defence development. This includes airborne radar, radio communications, navigation aids, and ground equipment, which is an essential part of any defence chain. Production for the year ended 31st March, 1954, was five times that of the year ended March, 1950. This increase has been accompanied by larger exports of the electronics industry, £29·3 million in 1954 as compared with £18·2 million in 1950 which is an increase of more than 50 per cent. I think that these figures make the remark of the hon. Member for Aston about T.V. sets last night sound very silly.
  The United Kingdom control and reporting system is the best in the world.
  Mr. Wyatt Mr. Wyatt rose—
  Mr. Lloyd: In view of the campaign—
  Hon. Members: Give way. Mr. Wyatt rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker:If the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member for Aston must resume his seat.
  Mr. Wyatt:On a point of order. Is it not the custom of this House that if an hon. Member is referred to and attacked—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker:That is the same question I was asked before, and I said that it was not a point of order.
  Mr. Wyatt: This is not the same question. What I want to put to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, is this: Is it not the custom, if a right hon. Member attacks another hon. Member, he gives way on that point as a matter of courtesy?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The custom is that if the hon. Member who has the Floor of the House does not give way, then the hon. Member who has risen to interrupt him must sit down.
  Mr. Lloyd: I was dealing with the United Kingdom control and reporting system, which I stated was the best in the world. In view of the campaign of denigration which has been going on, I have no hesitation in stating that fact. It may sound boastful, but on the other hand I do believe that the British people who have made such sacrifices for the defence of the free world during the last few years are entitled to know of our successes as well as of our alleged failures.
  Completely new control and reporting equipment has been installed since 1952, giving big improvements in both performance and reliability. It is manned by Royal Air Force operators whose training and experience are second to none, and whose skill enables them to handle the complex equipment with high efficiency. A new navigation and bombing system of very high performance has been developed since 1948, and production has begun. Another aircraft navigation system based on entirely new principles has been developed and is in production.
  Electronic equipment is the essence of modern anti-submarine war. Not only is the British Sonobuoy system in service with the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, but so successful has it been that the United States has decided to purchase a large part of the system for use by their own Forces.
  Electronics are of great importance to the Army. There is a very large development programme involved in the conversion of all regimental wireless communication to very high frequency. New ground radar equipment of greatly improved performance has been supplied to the Army and the N.A.T.O. countries, to whom about £5 million worth has been supplied.
  2106
  Other matters with which I should like to have dealt had I not been assisted so much in this speech, would have included re-equipment of the Army with Centurion tanks and the sale of over £100 million worth of these tanks overseas. After plenty of development difficulties, the Conqueror is now beginning to be issued to the Army. Ammunition production is now five times what it was in 1950. We have delivered over 50 million dollars worth of ammunition under the American offshore purchase programme, and design and production of the new Battalion antitank gun is proceeding fast, and production began within two and a half years of design—a project inaugurated by the right hon. Member for Easington. Over £200 million worth of work on wheeled vehicles has been done since November, 1951.
  In spite of some disappointments and some delays and many difficulties, in general the production effort of British industry and in particular of the aircraft industry during the past three years, is not deserving of the sweeping censures that have been directed at it. I believe that any fair-minded person considering the figures which I have given to the House this afternoon—
  Mr. Wigg: What did the "Daily Telegraph" say?
  Mr. Lloyd:—willacknowledge that that attack has completely misfired. It was without foundation and unworthy of an Opposition which claims to have a sense of responsibility.
  Mr. Wyatt: What about modifications?
  Mr. James Callaghan: What about the "Daily Telegraph" and the "Manchester Guardian"?
  Mr. Lloyd: As to the future, I think that it would be quite foolish to suggest that the processes of development are not capable of improvement. The appendix to the White Paper on aircraft supply sets out some of the issues which have to be considered. First, there is the question of research. It is essential to maintain a research programme sufficiently far ahead of current development to provide a general fund of knowledge upon aerodynamic problems so that as they are encountered during development processes the problems can be understood and solved. I think that in this country

  2107
  we have some of the best brains in the world working upon these matters, and I need refer only to the quality of the work revealed in the Comet inquiry.
  Secondly, we have already put into operation the development batch procedure about which I was questioned. If one had to select a single factor which more than another has led to difficulties and disappointments it is the inadequate number of prototypes ordered in case after case. That mistake will never be made again. In the only case with which this Government was concerned, the P.I. Fighter, a development batch of 20 was ordered.
  Some reference was made at Question Time on Monday to the question of modifications. There are some modifications which have to be made, those which are essential for safety and those which are essential to bring the aircraft up to an acceptable operational standard. These are those which have to be done however much they delay production. If one did not make safety modifications, we should unnecessarily be risking lives. If the aircraft are not brought up to an acceptable operational standard, then one may end with the aircraft not being brought into service at all. The Hunter airbrakes are examples of that type of modification.
  There is a second category of modification which is designed to extend the performance of the aircraft. It is with regard to this second category that great care must be exercised. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that they must be phased into the production stage only when they do not delay production. As I stated on Monday, it has been found possible to make certain modifications to the three V-bombers without delaying production.
  Then there is the wisdom of taking shorter steps. It is clear that a step of ten years between an aircraft and its successor is too long; the swept-wing fighter story has proved that. We have indicated earlier the particular projects upon which we are working. We are working on a variety of supersonic projects. There are some 11 projects with supersonic aircraft now being worked on. We have the plans drawn up, and technical resources, but we must guard against having too many projects, and also avoid again being left in the lurch if certain projects have to be eliminated.
  2108
  We are at present, I think, striking the proper balance between straining technical and financial resources by too many projects and ensuring something being developed in good time. We have to secure the greatest possible co-operation between the manufacturers, the Ministry of Supply, and the Air Ministry, or the Service Ministry concerned.
  Yesterday the hon. Member for Aston said something about the development of the Javelin, and I will deal with that in order to dispose of what he said. We believe that the Javelin will be the most advanced all-weather fighter. Development on it is making good progress. On the other hand, as everyone knows, three aircraft have been lost in accidents during the last 2½ years.
  When an aircraft of that size and weight is approaching the speed of sound aerodynamic problems are bound to be encountered. For example, the effect of shock waves on particular features of design can only be determined by flying experience. When hon. Members opposite urge us on to greater speeds they should bear in mind that these aerodynamic problems can only be discovered by testing. We have not at the present time the large-scale wind tunnels—we shall not have them for a short time yet—in which experiments may be carried out.
  These machines can only be tested at high speeds by the courage of the brave men who fly them. When it is said, "Get on, get on with the programme," one has to remember that vital point. There is a field of knowledge about aeroplanes which can only be discovered by flying them under those conditions, and the whole business is not a precise process.
  We believe that the development problems of the Javelin are soluble within the range of existing knowledge, but time is taken by quite minor alterations and caution is necessary with regard to the forecasting of the date for coming into service of that aeroplane. But the estimate which we have given in the White Paper is our reasonable expectation, on the best technical advice, that this aeroplane should become available in substantial numbers during the coming year.

  2109
  I believe that the problem is not one of the production of stereotyped articles. It is a development problem. Since the Korean war broke out both Governments have had to do the best they could in the light of previous decisions on aircraft development and production. Those decisions have gravely affected the ability of the country to provide sufficiently ahead of time a sufficient number of aircraft in service with a large margin of technical superiority.
  The prevailing criticism of what has been achieved has been unfair and unbalanced. Without doubt, mistakes have been made. Any system dependent on the human factor is obviously imperfect. The Government are well aware of the urgency, and at the same time of the need to avoid overstraining our resources, our scientific knowledge, skill, manpower, and material. We are determined, so far as it is within our power, to ensure that there shall be a real spirit of co-operation between the three partners in the enterprise in this respect, the manufacturers, the Service Ministries, and the Ministry of Supply.
  I do not think that there is any reason to lose faith in our scientists, technicians, and craftsmen, in spite of the complexities and uncertainties inherent in the problems to be solved. It would be very foolish of hon. Members on either side of the House to attempt to disguise those complexities or difficulties.
  Without being complacent or satisfied, I believe that a worthy effort is being made, and will continue to be made, to achieve the deterrent power and defensive capacity appropriate to our standing as a world Power. But of course all this is a means to an end, the maintenance of world peace and the creation of a situation in which this effort of mind and matter may be diverted to peaceful endeavour.
  5.35 p.m.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: The speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Minister of Supply reminds me of the story of the young speaker who went on and on until the chairman of the meeting, after a while, pulled his coat and said, "Why don't you end it?" The speaker replied, "I would, but I am no longer master of it." The right hon. and learned Gentleman has very nearly submerged the defence debate in a morass
  2110
  of undigested detail. We have spent a very long time listening to a highly detailed statement which, I should have thought, could have been made known much more advantageously on another occasion, or in the White Paper itself.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman has been levelling an accusation at the Opposition because they have put down a motion of censure on the record of the Government, and reviling them for what they have done. The fact is that the record of the Government has caused great alarm among the supporters of the Government and in newspapers which are normally 101 per cent. supporters of the Government. It is not sufficient to say that these statements have been put about by the Opposition. The "Daily Telegraph," which is not highly critical of the Tory Party, states that
  "The capacity of the aircraft industry needs examination to find out whether too much is being attempted."
  "The Times" talks of
  "Trying to take too many steps."
  To summarise:
  "The all-weather Javelin fighter arriving a year hence; the Swift on the point of abandonment as a bad job; the Valiant, an interim bomber first thought of seven years ago, only just coming into service; the Wyvern still not satisfactory for the aircraft carrier—it is a sad picture."
  It is not enough for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to say that all this happened because of decisions taken, or not taken, by the Labour Government more than three years ago. That will not serve the Government and the country. One cannot keep on saying it all the time. The country is tired of it—the country is getting tired of the Government. In fact, it reminds me more and more of the kind of debates we used to have before the war, when the present Prime Minister used to lash his own Front Bench for spending enormous sums of money and not providing us with the weapons; and he was proved to be correct when war broke out in 1939. The Conservative Government are going too far. They are showing their increasing incapacity to preserve the peace and their failure to provide weapons with which to fight a war.
  Exactly the same thing happened before the last war, and it is a grim picture. The Prime Minister said yesterday that we were playing party politics. I must say that he has some cheek sometimes. Just a few months after the first programme in

  2111
  1950—in February, 1951—everyone knows that the right hon. Gentleman himself said that before the Korean War; that we did have problems of development and research and experiment and we should have been extremely unwise to have gone in for mass production of unproved prototypes. Of course we should. But when the Korean War occurred, a decision was unanimously taken by the whole House to have a rearmament programme of substantial size within three years amounting to £3,600 million, of which £500 million was to be found by the Americans.
  We had hardly taken our breath when the right hon. Gentleman, who was then the Leader of the Opposition, put down the following motion:
  "while supporting all measures conceived in the real interest of national security, has no confidence in the ability of His Majesty's present Ministers to carry out an effective and consistent defence policy in concert with their allies, having regard to their record of vacillation and delay."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th February, 1951; Vol. 484, c. 623.]
  That was within a few months; this is now very nearly three and a half years, and yesterday the right hon. Gentleman, with his usual Churchill an impudence, suggested that we were playing party politics because, three and a half years afterwards, we had put down a much more modest Motion.
  The fact is—and it is now being increasingly recognised—that the decisions of 1950 and 1951 were, to some extent, based upon wrong political assumptions. Those assumptions were very soon revealed as being invalid. They were based upon advice, presented to the Ministers and to the right hon. Gentleman, by the heads of the Armed Services in America and in Britain, that within three years at most the Soviet Union would reach the summit of its power and that a threat of invasion of the West of Europe would mature, and that we had to do everything we could to meet that eventuality. That is to say, that the peril would reach its summit at the end of 1953.
  It is now 1955, and, if the peril had eventuated in 1953, we should have had nothing with which to meet it. We have not very much now, but we should have had nothing then. The fact is that if the Government believed that we were to meet a peril of these dimensions by the end of 1953, then they ought now to be
  2112
  indicted for high treason for not taking the necessary steps to meet it. In point of fact, we all knew then—if I might remind the House of something which I said in a speech on defence in February, 1951—that there was all the difference in the world, and the Government have realised it since, between inserting a great arms programme into an economy which is at full stretch and an American programme inserted into an economy with a surplus productive capacity and an army of unemployed. That was the difficulty.
  I say at once that, apart from the incompetence of Ministers, the Government have been faced with a very difficult economic situation, because when, in peacetime, we try to insert a great armaments programme into an economy already at full stretch, we must make a place for it. We have to allow for its physical displacement. We cannot do it merely by manipulating figures at the Treasury. We must move workmen in the workshops. The only way in which that programme could ever have been carried out—and especially the one which succeeded it—at that time, in time of peace, would have been by the direction of labour and by using physical controls which the Tories will never allow. That is why they have gone wrong.
  It is characteristic of a Conservative Administration that it will never take the necessary industrial steps to give effect to the decisions of this House. The Tories will not interfere sufficiently with private enterprise to carry them out. That was really the matter. It was the same in 1937, 1938 and 1939. The Government of the day had all the money and all the Parliamentary sanctions which they needed. They had complete Parliamentary power and an army of 2 million unemployed, but they did not carry out the paramount needs of the nation because they would not interfere with the prerogatives of private enterprise.
  That is exactly what has been happening in the last three and a half years. The Government have set the people free, have abolished all the controls and have allowed people to make profits where, as much and how they liked. Because they have done that, and, at the same time, have attempted to carry out a large arms programme, the result has been mounting profits by armaments manufacturers and belated supplies of arms.

  2113
  That is a true statement of the picture, and, indeed, there is nothing new about it. We all realised what was going to happen. I will, if I may be allowed to do so, quote what I said in 1951:
  "The fact of the matter is, as everybody knows, that the extent to which stockpiling has already taken place, the extent to which the civil economy is being turned over to defence purposes in other parts of the world, is dragging prices up everywhere. Furthermore, may I remind the right hon. Gentleman that if we turn over the complicated machinery of modern industry to war preparation too quickly … we shall do so in a campaign of hate, in a campaign of hysteria which may make it very difficult to control that machine when it has been created. … We want to organise our defence programme in this country in such a fashion as will keep the love of peace as vital as ever it was before, but we have seen in other places that a campaign for increased arms production is accompanied by a campaign of intolerance and hatred and witch-hunting. Therefore, we in this country are not at all anxious to imitate what has been done in other places."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th February. 1951; Vol. 484, c. 736.]
  That was in 1951. Can anyone suggest that the events which have occurred in the United States since then are not a complete vindication of that prophecy? We have had campaigns of hate and hysteria, and we now have a war machine which is almost out of control, as I hope to be able to prove before I sit down.
  The fact is that we have never recognised that, if what we said was correct, we took inadequate steps to meet it. Fortunately, we were wrong. Fortunately, the assumptions upon which we based our programme were inaccurate, as inaccurate, I believe, as the assumptions underlying the speech of the Prime Minister yesterday. In 1950 and 1951 we said that we had three years. It has turned out to be more. Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman said that we have another three years—[HON. MEMBERS: "Four years."] Yes, four years, and it may be longer.
  There was not very much justification in what we said then. There is none in what the right hon. Gentleman says now. He is merely making wild guesses. If I may be allowed to say this in parenthesis, the difficulty of the right hon. Gentleman in making a speech in this House arises out of his virtues and out of his extraordinary capacity for presentation. The mediocrity of his thinking is concealed by the majesty of his language.
  When, yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman addressed us in sombre accents
  2114
  about the menace of the hydrogen bomb and the possibility of its terrifying potentialities conducing to peaceful discussions, he was saying nothing new. In February, 1951, I said:
  "If there is one thing of which the Russian people are aware it is the existence of the atom bomb. Therefore, if there is fear of the atom bomb, it is a mutual fear, and out of that mutual fear mutual sense may be born. Therefore, we ourselves consider—we have always considered on this side of the House— that every opportunity must be eagerly sought in order to try to bring about an alleviation of international tension."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th February, 1951; Vol. 484, c. 735.]
  I am not suggesting for a moment that that language was as scintillating as the language used yesterday by the Prime Minister. The words are shorter, but the sentiments are the same. I said that three and a half years ago, so, when the right hon. Gentleman spent the time of the House of Commons yesterday telling us, the nation and the world that the hydrogen bomb and the atom bomb between them produced a situation in which negotiations might be more fruitful, he was echoing a thought that has been with us all the time. What we want to know is, when do the negotiations start?
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) made an admirable and well-balanced speech, in which he put the position of defence in a proper relationship to policy. We cannot discuss this White Paper as though what we are really doing is providing the instrument of policy alone—because, when the instrument which we are proposing to create is absolute, policy is intrinsically the instrument itself. We are discussing policy when we are discussing the hydrogen bomb. We are no longer discussing a weapon alone, because, the weapon being absolute, it is also policy. Therefore, the debate upon defence today must concern foreign affairs as well as defence. As has been pointed out by military experts, neither the scientists nor the military men have an answer to the problem of the world. The scientists have spoken. We have had enough science. It is now time to have a little more wisdom.
  The right hon. Gentleman yesterday made a speech which astonished me, because, fundamentally, it had no sense in it at all. I admit that it was well garbed—but let us look at what the right hon. Gentleman told the House. He said

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  he believed that the principle of deterrents, intrinsic in the existence of the hydrogen bomb, would make negotiations possible and might even result in peace, because the use of it would mean mutual suicide. If that be the case, why wait for three years, until the Russians have the bomb to deliver?
  We have always been told that we wanted to talk out of strength. That has been the argument all the while, "The stronger we become," said the right hon. Gentleman, "the more willing the Russians will be to be conciliatory." In the next breath he went on to say that today the Russians have not got the hydrogen bomb and the bombers to deliver it, and that the power to do so rested with the West. So we have the power from which to negotiate. In those circumstances, one would have thought that we would be sending Notes to the Kremlin asking the Soviet leaders to meet us, because we can talk out of strength.
  But the contrary is the position. The Notes to negotiate are coming to us, from the Soviet Union all the time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Hon. Members opposite ask "Why?" I tell them—and this applies not only to the Socialist and Conservative Parties, but to the country as well—that the ordinary man and woman is beginning spiritually to contract out of the quarrel. We are all displaying the posture of little men before big events, and the ordinary man in the street is beginning to sense it. He is beginning to realise that we have not got the stature of the occasion.
  If what the right hon. Gentleman said upon this subject yesterday is true—as I think it is—will he tell the House why it is that he does not insist upon meetings with the Russian leaders? It may be that they are not sincere in what they say, but there is only one way of finding out—and that is to meet them. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman would like to do it, but that the United States will not permit him. That is a sombre thing to say, and a wicked thing to believe—that we have now reached the situation where Great Britain can, in a few short years, run the risk of the extinction of its civilisation, and we cannot reach the potential enemy in an attempt to arrive at an accommodation with him because we are now at the mercy of the United States.
  The Prime Minister: It is absolutely wrong to suggest that the course which we have followed here has been at the dictation of the United States. It is quite true that I would have liked to see a top level conference, with the three Powers, and I would have liked to see it shortly after Mr. Malenkov took power—as I said at the time, to see, "Is there a new look?" I wanted to do that, and my colleagues agreed. I had charge of the Foreign Office, owing to my right hon. Friend's illness. I prepared in every way to go over to see the President, and I hoped to persuade him to arrange with me to invite a three-Power conference. However, I was struck down by a very sudden illness which paralysed me completely, physically. That is why I had to put it all off, and it was not found possible to persuade President Eisenhower to join in that process.
  I have also considered the possibility of a dual meeting at some neutral place, such as Stockholm. While I was thinking about these matters—because I have really not been dithering on the subject; I have tried my very utmost, and I would not retain the headship of our Government upon a subject of this kind if they were not acting in what I thought was a sincere and honourable mood—I did hope that after my last visit to America something like a dual meeting might take place at Stockholm or somewhere similar, and that it might be a sort of go-between prelude to a meeting of the three, because we cannot settle anything alone that would be decisive.
  But then the Soviet Government began a very elaborate process of trying to stop the ratification of E.D.C., which I thought had been more or less accepted. It was certainly a very harmless form of protection. Therefore, all this other matter has come up now and has stood in the way of a further general talk. When the ratification is complete, any Government who are responsible at that time will be perfectly free to take up these negotiations and to hold, either on the Foreign Office level or on the heads-of-Government level, a perfectly open and free discussion. I am much obliged to the House, and I apologise for this long intervention.
  Mr. Bevan: I think that the whole House is grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention and for the

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  frankness he has displayed. I am bound to point out, however, that it is complete confirmation of what I have said. The right hon. Gentleman visited President Eisenhower in the hope of converting him to the project, and he failed to do so. He fell ill then. We all regret that.
  The right hon. Gentleman has for many months been in his usual robust health, I am glad to say, and, therefore, there has been plenty of opportunity for him to do this. The opposition of the Soviet Government to E.D.C. was not new. The Soviet Government had been opposed to E.D.C. ever since it was first mooted. They only increased their opposition to it by propaganda when it seemed to be near consummation. They were against it all the time.
  The nation will read with considerable apprehension what the Prime Minister says. His reasons seem to be very trivial to stand in the way of such projects. We are not dealing with a treaty with the German people or with the ambitions of Dr. Adenauer. We are not dealing with the possibilities of Western German rearmament. We are dealing with the preservation of the human race. That is why I say, when the Prime Minister frankly gives the reasons that he has now given for not giving effect to last year's April Resolution of this House, that those reasons will seem to the country to be trivial and unimportant, compared with the importance of the matter that we are discussing.
  I want to come to the matter of Western Germany in the White Paper. I am very sorry that neither the Leader of the Opposition nor the deputy Leader of the Opposition is present. I would like my hon. Friends to listen. We are very worried. Since the Amendment to the Government's Motion has appeared on the Order Paper a change has taken place in the interpretation of the White Paper. We now want to know what it means. We are given to understand that the White Paper means that when we speak about hydrogen and nuclear weapons as deterrents we mean that they will be used at once in the beginning of any sort of hostilities. That is a very serious matter indeed.
  Paragraph 19 of the White Paper, on page 6, says:
  "This deterrent must rest primarily on the strategic air power of the West, armed with its
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  nuclear weapons. The knowledge that aggression will be met by overwhelming nuclear retaliation is the surest guarantee that it will not take place."
  It does not say "knowledge that nuclear aggression will be met," but "knowledge that aggression will be met." That seems to make it even clearer.
  In paragraph 22 of the White Paper is a discussion about the German contribution. The paragraph says:
  "Even allowing for the essential German contribution the free world cannot put into the front line anything comparable to this strength in conventional forces. The use of nuclear weapons is the only means by which this massive preponderance can be countered. … If we do not use the full weight of our nuclear power, Europe can hardly be protected from invasion and occupation—with all that this implies both for Europe and the United Kingdom."
  When the Minister of Supply was asked a question about this matter he was less than frank with the House. This is too serious a matter for lawyer-like dexterities. He should have been a more sober-minded witness on the matter. When he was asked a question he should have answered it, and not have referred to another question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton). The right hon. and learned Gentleman was less clear than the White Paper itself. In fact, the White Paper is quite clear.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I referred to the hon. Member for Preston, South because he referred to the particular paragraphs of the White Paper which deal with the matter.
  Mr. Bevan: But we want to know what the right hon. and learned Gentleman means by it. The Amendment of the Opposition reads thus:
  "…. it is necessary as a deterrent to aggresion to rely on the threat of using thermo-nuclear weapons."
  I want my right hon. Friends the Leaders of the Opposition to answer me. Do they mean by that language what the Government mean by the White Paper? [An. HON. MEMBER: "Yes."] Do they mean that nuclear weapons will be used with the support of the British Labour movement against any sort of aggression? I want to know the answer. If my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition says that that is the interpretation of that Amendment, then I do not propose to vote for it this evening.

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  We have never stated at any time, indeed it would be plain insanity to state it, that wherever aggression occurs in Europe, no matter of what sort, we answer it by the use of nuclear weapons which, the Prime Minister said yesterday, would involve the destruction of the British nation. I want to know from the Prime Minister what it means. If, as has been said, absence of ambiguity is the best kind of deterrent, we ought not to have the slightest ambiguity. We should let the enemy know exactly what he might expect.
  Mr. Wigg: If my right hon. Friend will forgive me for interrupting, may I say that at the conclusion of the Prime Ministers' speech yesterday my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) put the same question to the Prime Minister. Subsequently, the same question was put by the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey) and after that it was put by the right hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay). Subsequently I spoke, and I offered to give way to the Minister of Defence in order to get an answer. So far, we have failed to get an answer from the Prime Minister or the Minister of Defence on the question whether, if aggression takes place with conventional weapons, nuclear weapons will be used. Will the Prime Minister be good enough to answer it?
  Mr. Bevan: We shall try to get an answer. We are led to believe that this is just what the language of the White Paper means. Will the Prime Minister or the Minister of Defence answer the question before the end of the debate?
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence will refer to this point tonight when he winds up the debate.
  Hon. Members: Answer it now.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I propose to deal with this question and many other questions at the end of the debate. Possibly the Leader of the Opposition may wish to elaborate it a little and it would be more courteous to answer it after he has spoken.
  Mr. Bevan: This is not a complicated question that requires long elucidation.
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  It is a simple question. The question is whether we intend to use nuclear weapons at once in the event of aggression of whatever type. The reason why we are afraid is that we are told by Lord Montgomery that that is what he has in mind.
  We are told so even more seriously in some words which appeared in the "Manchester Guardian" yesterday. I wish the Prime Minister and Minister of Defence would listen to this. Here is a report of an interview with General Grunter:
  "A retired and very responsible officer, Brigadier-General Thomas Phillips recalls a conversation he had in October with General Grunter, Supreme Commander in Europe. He reports in a sober way General Gruenther's rather devastating assurance that the Western Powers had already 'passed the point of no return' in the use of conventional weapons. 'He has no choice,' he told me, 'except to use atomic weapons whether the enemy does so or not.'"
  This is very serious. We are told here that, in an atom war, whatever happens, we die; that despite all the armoury the Minister of Supply described to us, which he said, might be available in a few years' time, we shall use the bomb that will wipe us out. That is us. The Commander-in-Chief, Allied Forces, has said that whether or not the enemy uses the weapon we shall use it at once: if attacked, at once. So we are immediately to use the weapon whose use results in our extinction. Does the Prime Minister think that the people of this country understand that? Does he think that if they understood it he would be in office for a week? He said yesterday that he thought he would have the unanimous support of the people of the country behind his decision to make the hydrogen bomb.
  I am not concerned with converting this defence debate into a defence of or an attack upon the hydrogen bomb. The right hon. Gentleman was extremely skilful yesterday in attempting to do that. I myself cannot see that there is any logical difference between the hydrogen bomb and the atom bomb. Nor can I see any moral difference between the two. They are both weapons of imprecision. Nor, indeed, can I see any difference, except scientifically and technically, between the two of them and saturation bombing, which is also indiscriminate slaughter of human beings. They are all

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  immoral. So I am not going to take up my stand on saying that I am for the atom bomb and not for the hydrogen bomb.
  However, that is not what this argument today is about. This argument is about what policies the Government are developing to save us and the world from this grim alternative. So far, we have had none. All that the right hon. Gentleman has said now is that he is postponing a discussion with the Soviet leaders in order to be able to get a German army, which now everybody knows is of no use. That is a stubborn point of view, which he keeps on repeating because it has been said no frequently before.
  What is that German army to do? What will any of the armies do? What have they to do with it? All the generals are telling us that armies will be no use. It is true to say that if such a war broke out the armies would be farther away from each other at the end of the war than at the beginning of it, because they would all have to march away from the radioactive centres they would create. They cannot march into the radioactive centres. So if we want to be safe let us join the Army.
  The nation is watching, and we want to know what policy the Government propose to pursue. The right hon. Gentleman said yesterday that he would meet the Soviet leaders and talk tough and then have supper. The last supper, I presume. Because if those Soviet leaders can talk tough now, and he can talk tough, they can talk tougher then. If he meets them and they will not give in, what does he do? Does he pout and say that he is going to commit suicide?
  That is precisely where we have got. We have either to agree with our enemy or commit suicide. That is what we have come to. The world has already reached the point where either international difficulties are negotiated upon, or else mankind gives up. That is the point of no return. That is it. It is no use hon. Members arguing now that the situation is going to change. It will be no different—except worse; because the deterrents in the hands of the Soviet Union will be greater than they are now.
  If, therefore, we are to negotiate then, why not negotiate now? Why not find out if we can? That is the situation in
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  which mankind is. It does not require experts to understand it. We do not require scientists to tell us. We do not need to employ expensive soldiers to advise us. They are out of date, they are outmoded; they are no longer of value. We are spending millions and millions of pounds on foolishness.
  The issue is simply this. Are we to conduct a peace policy or a war policy? We could do it. We could meet the Soviet Union representatives at once. I therefore beg the Government to measure up to the magnitude of this problem. Let the Prime Minister do deeds to match his great words; not attempt to delude the country by the majesty of his language, but inspire it by the dedication of his behaviour. That is what we want from him.
  We want from my right hon. Friends the leaders of the Opposition an assurance that the language of their Amendment, moved on our behalf, does not align the Labour movement behind that recklessness; because if we cannot have the lead from them, let us give the lead ourselves.
  6.19 p.m.
  Mr. John Maclay: It is through no calculation of my own that once again, by pure chance, I follow the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) when he has made a speech, like an earlier one I had reason to criticise, which I must describe as nothing but pure mischief-making on his part, and mischief-making on a very large scale. I hope that some of the hon. Members who have cheered some of the remarks he made will listen for a few minutes while I try to argue what the right hon. Gentleman has really been trying to say.
  What has the right hon. Gentleman been trying to say? He has apparently fallen back into that absurd fallacy of his that the only purpose of the Paris Treaties is to get 12 German divisions. Does he believe that that is the only purpose of the Paris Treaties?
  Mr. Crossman: It is partly.
  Mr. Maclay: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman. I tried to once before, but he walked out and would not listen. A purpose of those Treaties is certainly to obtain a German contribution to the defence of the free European

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  nations, but, as I said then, the far more important purpose is to bring free Western Germany into the comity of the free European nations.
  Mr. Bevan: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what he means by that? Does he mean that Germany is to be permanently disunited?
  Mr. Maclay:That is a complete turning of my point. I can deal with that perfectly well at a later stage. Let us deal with the first point. I repeat my question. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is vast importance in a free Western Germany coming into the comity of the Western European nations?
  Mr. Bevan:I will answer quite frankly. I believe that to try to incorporate Western Germany into the Atlantic Alliance and, therefore, divide Germany, is a sure step towards war.
  Mr. Maclay: Again, the right hon. Gentleman will not answer my question. The implication must be that he does not much care whether the German Federal Republic is united with the other free nations. He says that the essential problem is the reuniting of Germany. I will give him the answer. I agree that the reuniting of Germany on terms which the Western Germans could possibly accept if they value freedom is undoubtedly not for the immediate future, because the Russians, who control Eastern Germany, have made it absolutely clear that the only terms which they would accept are terms which cannot possibly be acceptable to people who value freedom.
  When will the right hon. Gentleman answer the questions which his hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) put to the House last week, which was what is meant by the Soviet proposals broadcast on 15th January by Moscow Radio? Does he accept their definition of free elections? Is it a free election to put forward electoral rolls on the basis of Eastern Germany? Does he also accept what has been said, but which he seems to forget, that the purpose of Russia at the moment, as it has been expressed on this subject, is to urge that national armed forces for all Germany should be created? Does he agree that the Russians are not proposing to keep Germany disarmed?
  Mr. Bevan: The answer is that when proposals are put forward by one nation to another they do not try to have them all clarified before they meet, but that they meet to clarify them. The right hon. Gentleman wants the exchange of Notes to take the place of the conference itself.
  Mr. Maclay: The right hon. Gentleman is sliding out of the main issue. What he really wants, what he would really like to see, is postponement of the ratification of the Paris Treaties. According to something which he said earlier, he would also like to see an increasing split between the United Kingdom and the United States. That is precisely what the right hon. Gentleman is after. If there are two methods of betraying the free Western world in today's conditions, one is to prevent, or take any steps which might prevent, the unification of a free Western Europe, and the other and major one is to take steps which could achieve the splitting of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth from the United States.
  Mr. Bevan:The last time he spoke, the right hon. Gentleman said I left the Chamber before he had finished. I have listened to him with very great interest, and will continue to do so if he will argue and not abuse me.
  Mr. Maclay:The right hon. Gentleman cannot take it. I have some respect for the right hon. Gentleman, but to hear from him that he wants argument and not abuse is almost ludicrous. It is too much. I speak with some very strong feelings, not because I am bothered about the effect of the right hon. Gentleman's words in this House, because we know him, but because I am bothered about their effect outside, not only in this country but abroad.
  Of course, we all agree with the right hon. Gentleman that if we could have negotiations which are likely to be successful we should go for them as quickly as we possibly can. It is absolutely clear from the White Paper that our desire is disarmament, but let us review this word "disarmament" for a moment or two. Another of the misconceptions which are very rife in this country is that disarmament in itself is something good. Disarmament does not necessarily mean peace. When we get the kind of agreement on disarmament which we get

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  between Governments—and we had experience of this before the war—it does not necessarily mean peace. We cannot get really effective disarmament while lacking the conditions which will make permanent peace possible. That is the real objective, and it is no use going back to the Russian proposals for various disarmament conferences which have never recognised that.
  Mr. Crossman:I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we cannot get disarmament until we get suitable conditions for it, but may I ask him whether he thinks that the most suitable condition for disarmament is the rearmament of Western Germany, the rearmament of Eastern Germany and the creation of competitive armaments in Germany? Does he think it possible to get disarmament under those conditions?
  Mr. Maclay:I have said before, and I think the hon. Member was here, that the main thing is that Eastern Germany is already rearmed. That is the whole extraordinary fallacy of the position taken up by certain hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. One would imagine that it was we who were advocating the rearmament of Germany, but Eastern Germany is already rearmed. There is no question of the Russian Government proposing to disarm Germany, even a united Germany. They are proposing an armed united Germany, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will make that clear in his writings and speeches, because there are grave misconceptions about it in the country.
  Mr. Crossman:Surely we all agree that if we are to have a Germany which is reunited and made independent we cannot possibly deny such a Germany the means of self-defence for ever. No normal person who wants to see a peaceful world could possibly say that a reunited Germany should not have its own defences. I say that there are dangers in having competitive armaments in two pieces of Germany, each being a satellite of great Powers.
  Mr. Maclay: The implication of that is that we have to give way to the Russian point of view. It is quite clear from his argument that he is suggesting that we can help to achieve the reunification of Germany on suitable terms to the free
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  people of Western Germany and of the free Western world by postponing the ratification of the Paris Treaties. Is that the hon. Gentleman's argument? How are we to do it? By insisting on postponing ratification of the Paris Treaties which hon. Members opposite have suggested. Surely the Russian object in postponing the ratification of the Paris Treaties is simply to try to prevent free Western Germany being integrated into the Western European community. I can understand why they are doing it, but let us face the fact that they are doing it. Holding high-level talks sounds good, but it is no use having them until the immediate conditions which exist in relation to the Paris Treaties are cleared up. The reason is quite clear. The reason that it has not been possible to have high-level talks with the Russians is that it has been made quite clear that the Russians wish to prevent the reuniting of a free Western Europe before they go into any discussions at all.
  Mr. John Rankin: Is the right hon. Gentleman repudiating the Prime Minister, who said he would have taken part in those talks had it not been for his own physical break-down?
  Mr. Maclay: That was before the Russian attitude to E.D.C. and to the Paris Treaties had been made lamentably clear.
  Let me come to the White Paper. I will not detain the House for long; there have already been long speeches, unavoidably. I welcome the White Paper for two main reasons. One is that it makes absolutely clear our will to move into a proper and genuine disarmament conference as soon as that is possible. That we all believe is of prime importance. The second reason, and the major reason, is that it shows that we are accepting with a full sense of responsibility our position as a great Power in the world. That has importance far beyond the defence of our own shores.
  Whatever may be the position of the United States in the world today, whatever her strength, the rest of the free world cannot avoid looking to us for clear guidance as to the line we are taking in an age which has come under the shadow of the hydrogen bomb and the other nuclear developments. The encouragement which will be given to the other

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  nations of Europe and of the rest of the world by the clear statement in the White Paper, the decision to proceed with the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb, is, I believe, one of the most important points of the White Paper.
  I will pass very quickly to some minor comments on what is not in the White Paper rather than what is in it, because these are, I believe, important. The White Paper would be very disturbing to me if it attempted to lay down with any finality what the pattern of the three Services should be in the future. It could not possibly do so so soon after a complete revolution in thinking has been made necessary by the advent of the hydrogen bomb. The very flexibility of the White Paper is encouraging.
  Having said that, however, I must add that some of us are in the difficulty of not knowing how to think about it. The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) made, in many parts, an interesting speech, but he started straight off on one of the problems which are worrying many of us, for he suggested, if I understood him correctly, that it is necessary to revise all our views of the functions of the Services and that it will be necessary to think of the Royal Navy in completely different terms.
  I agree that, clearly, the advent of this new method of war makes re-thinking essential, but I suggest that we must be very careful in deciding that, because in the event of a three-day war, or whatever it may be, this island may be incapable of receiving supplies into the ports, then the Navy should have its functions completely altered. If that were the concept behind the thinking, we should cease worrying about convoys and about the whole question of the defence of merchant ships and should concentrate all our resources on the major deterrent weapon.
  It is very tempting to think that way, but I suggest that there is another consideration which must always be in our minds. We cannot tell how war will start, if it starts. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale made a great fuss in asking what the words mean in the White Paper about when we should use the hydrogen bomb. It seems to me that his words were just words. The hydrogen bomb exists; it is there. Somebody will have to decide to use it in war, if it is
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  to be used in war. We cannot forecast the conditions which would result in the hydrogen bomb being used. One thing which it would be lunacy to do would be to lay down a large number of conditions in black-and-white in which the hydrogen bomb would not be used.
  Mr. Stephen Swingler Mr. Stephen Swingler (Newcastle-under-Lyme) rose—
  Mr. Maclay: I must get on.
  It is very tempting to think of economies in relation to the convoy system and the defence of merchant ships, but surely one of the points we have to remember is that war, if it starts, will probably not start in a dramatic way but in a small way. It could start with the sinking of ships. Perhaps some submarines will get out of the Baltic. Then the danger of the hydrogen bomb would be that it would have to be dropped because what might have been only an incident developed into a major war.
  We have to be dead certain that if there is any tension of the kind which might lead to war, then our defence of merchant shipping—and I am using that merely as an example among other things—is in good condition so that the risk of the small and the slow start which produces the ultimate big war is minimised. That is the argument for conventional forces, and I deal with the merchant marine and the defence of the Merchant Navy only because it happens to be mentioned very little in the White Paper.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Sir L. Ropner) yesterday touched on other aspects of merchant shipping problems in the event of war. I only add to what he said, and to what I have said already, that at some time in the not too remote future—probably it is not possible this evening, but perhaps it could be done tomorrow—we should be told what arrangements are being made in the new conditions for the immediate and effective convoying of ships if a period should arise when there was clearly a risk of hostile action against them.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Of course, nothing can be absolutely certain, but if anything is certain it is that if we reach a stage in which we have unrestricted war at sea, that is atom war;

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  and that would mean that every Soviet submarine base would be atomised within 24 hours. The one danger which I should have thought we did not have in an atom war was the danger of submarines, because the atom is the complete answer to the submarine.
  Mr. Maclay: I was specifically talking of the period before the atom war started. That is the dilemma which we face. We have to visualise the possibility of war starting not in a big and dramatic way, but in some other way. We can visualise many possibilities. It is not too difficult to get large numbers of submarines out of the Baltic or wherever they may be and posted around the world, with supply ships or some kind of supply submarines. We could certainly have the Russian cruisers, which we hear about, scattered around the world. Why have they 30 cruisers? Why have they all these submarines? They must have them for some purpose.
  All I am saying is that it would be wrong, because we have to concentrate a great deal of our resources on the great deterrent, to start thinking that we can minimise the watch on our conventional weapons.
  There I come to one point which the White Paper does not and possibly cannot give us, which makes it difficult for us to form a clear view. We cannot tell, except perhaps with the Army, what are our true functions under the North Atlantic Treaty structure. For the Navy I do not think we can be told the answer at this stage. Obviously, we should not fight such a war all by ourselves. Indeed, if we devoted all our resources to it, we could not do it. But that is not the point. We have no intention of doing so for, unlike 1939 or 1914, we are members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
  At the same time, I think we and the public must be told more clearly what functions we are now being expected to undertake in relation to sea and air and, to some extent, in relation to the Army. I think that for the Army we know more precisely what we have to do, but until we get some information about this division of functions it will be extraordinarily difficult for the Opposition or for hon. Members on the back benches on this side of the House to think clearly and
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  constructively about the defence problems which we face.
  I had other things to say, but, as the hour is late, I feel that I must leave them.
  6.39 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: I thought that the massive speech made by the Prime Minister yesterday would rank—and probably it will still rank—as one of his greatest orations, but I think that the intervention which came from him this afternoon will be far more important, and will cause more discussion in the world than the statement which he made yesterday.
  Yesterday, very rightly, in his own majestic language, he described the state to which mankind has now-brought itself—face to face with complete destruction and with the peril which is imminent upon us. But today he also brought out very clearly that, while we are face to face with that imminent danger from Russia, there is, unfortunately, a distinct division of opinion in the free world. That, I think, is the matter which concerns us far more tonight than almost anything else.
  Our position is that, rightly, it is the desire of everyone that we should have peace, but at the same time in the free world we are anxious that peace should be in accordance with our ideas of a free people with free institutions, working a free democracy. Our anxiety is to defend our freedom, and we would, in defence of freedom, sacrifice even peace itself.
  The threat is coming to us from what is now called the other side of the Iron Curtain. All the way from the middle of Germany right to the China Sea there is one control of policy, one control of all men and women, one control over finance, production, economy, policy, propaganda, and no criticism. On the other side is the rest of the world anxious for the defence of its own freedom.
  The first pages of this White Paper are far more important to the general public and, indeed, to the world, than are the details contained in its later pages. I should like to refer to the conclusion contained in paragraphs 30, 31 and 32. In paragraph 30, we read:
  "To sum up; there arc inescapable difficulties and dangers in this period of uneasy truce with the Communist Powers whose aims and

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  policies are fundamentally opposed to our own. The monolithic nature of the Communist system seems to remain basically unaltered."
  That is obviously true, and the word "monolithic" is the right description.
  Then, in paragraph 31, there are these words:
  "These difficulties may, however, be overcome if we are patient and resolute, and these dangers avoided if we are united"—
  I would underline that word "united"—
  "vigilant and prepared. We must not be lulled into a false sense of security, nor frightened into a state of paralysis, nor provoked into hasty or ill-considered action.
  Above all, if the free world stands together determined if necessary to defend itself with all its resources, then the nuclear weapon, in the words of the Prime Minister, 'increases the chances of world peace far more than the chances of world war.'"
  But does it stand together? That is the question we are putting to ourselves today. That view is based upon the theory that we are all united. But are we united? I would remind the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)—I am sorry that he has now left the Chamber—that we realised, somewhere about 1947 or the beginning of 1948 that, unfortunately, there was not one of us free nations in a position to defend our own freedom and it was, therefore, necessary to look round for allies, and ask for a united effort on the part of all nations which were willing to join together to defend freedom.
  It was the Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was an honoured member which made the first agreement, namely, the Brussels Treaty, embracing nations like France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxemburg, who were willing to join together in a common scheme of defence. That Treaty was followed by another Treaty, also made by the previous Government, known as N.A.T.O.—the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation—which has now developed into a combination of 14 or 15 States.
  But is there unity of purpose, of ideas, of economy, and of policy amongst those who form N.A.T.O. in the same way as there is amongst the forces that are opposed to us? I wonder what the position really is, especially after the statement which was made by the Prime Minister today? We have all known of his desire. I have spoken of it time and time again, and not merely since the war but before the war and as far back as
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  the early twenties when one began to realise what was the right hon. Gentleman's major aim—his interest in and passion for peace. We all knew of his interest in the freedom of the people, and especially his pride in the people of this country, but, above all, it was a permanent basis for peace throughout the whole world in which he was interested, and he dedicated himself to attaining that great object.
  I was not a bit surprised at the great speech he made in May, 1953. That object has always been in his mind. And in order to try to attain that object in the really difficult situation of today, he first suggested the arrangement of bringing the heads of the great Powers together. Why has not that been done? No one can blame the right hon. Gentleman. He told us today that he was prevented only by illness from, at his great age, crossing the Atlantic to try to persuade the other great democratic people that his was the right course in order to try to save humanity.
  What is happening today? We now know that the United States has a large quantity of hydrogen bombs. We are now, apparently, to start upon their manufacture. Do we transmit to one another the knowledge which we have? Do we tell one another our secrets? Do we exchange knowledge that is possessed by our great scientists, or does each nation follow its own policy without reference to anybody else?
  This seems to me an extraordinary situation. We call ourselves defenders of the free people, not only here in this country or in the United States, or even among those countries which are members of N.A.T.O., but everywhere, and yet we cannot agree on a common policy. Someone very rightly suggested that this is not really so much a debate on defence as a debate on foreign policy. I agree, for it is primarily a debate on the policy of the free nations and of the policy which those free nations, once they have agreed together, should then present to our opponents in Moscow.
  But are we making any use of the smaller nations? There is no monopoly of scientists or of great men in the United States or in this country. Some of the greatest scientists that the world has known have come from the smaller nations which are in greater peril than

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  we are. Belgium never asked to enter either of the two great wars. Neither did Poland, nor Norway, nor Denmark, and yet, because of the mighty ones, the wars were fought above their lands, with the destruction of their homes and their lives. Are they not entitled to be asked to come in and participate in the pool of common resources for the defence of liberty, which is as much their concern as ours?
  That is one matter which I should have liked to have heard debated in the House, instead of this wrangling that has been going on about who has the better plane and who the worst. There should be standardisation—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Of the bomb.
  Mr. Davies:—of everything, because then we could see where we stood and know exactly where we were; the whole lot of us would know. But as I understand it, we cannot even agree on the standardisation of the simplest weapon.
  It is rather significant that that is brought out incidentally in paragraph 13 of the Statement on Defence, in which it is stated:
  "Naturally it is within the Commonwealth that we look for the fullest co-operation in defence."
  Why? Why should we be limited in that way? The Statement adds:
  "The closest liaison is maintained at the Service level with other Commonwealth countries between whose forces there is considerable standardisation of equipment, weapons and training techniques."
  Why be limited to that? If we are involved in war, all the nations will be involved at the same time. It will not be limited to the Commonwealth. Surely, these conferences should take place on a much wider basis.
  I now want to refer to another aspect. Very rightly, the Statement calls attention, in paragraph 10, to the fact that
  "The deterrent to aggression does not consist in military strength alone."
  I quite agree. I think that even the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) would agree with that. Also, it is stated,
  "The political unity and resolution and the economic as well as the physical strength of the free world must be maintained."
  That is perfectly right. What is more, it was in the minds of those who drafted all the treaties which we have at present.
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  The first three articles of the Brussels Treaty, which was made for the defence of the five nations—for mutual defence—do not refer to military equipment or the pooling of their military powers. They refer to exactly what I have just read from the Statement on Defence.
  Article 1 of the Brussels Treaty states:
  "Convinced of the close community of their interests and of the necessity of uniting in order to promote the economic recovery of Europe, the High Contracting Parties will so organize and co-ordinate their economic activities as to produce the best possible results, by the elimination of conflict in their economic policies, the co-ordination of production and the development of commercial exchanges."
  Article 2 of the Treaty states:
  "The High Contracting Parties will make every effort in common, both by direct consultation and in specialized agencies, to promote the attainment of a higher standard of living by their peoples …"
  Practically nothing has been done with regard to those articles, but they so impressed the people who drew up the North Atlantic Treaty that the second article in that great document emphasises exactly the same thing.
  It is as follows:
  "The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them."
  I am not alone in saying that nothing has been done with regard to that.
  Recently, both from Canada and the United States, from Norway, from Belgium, from France, and from this country, there have come protests that nothing had been done. Probably the most important signature on the document calling attention to the fact that nothing had been done was that of one as responsible as the head of one of the High Contracting Parties, ex-President Truman; and his signature was followed by that of Mr. Adlai Stevenson. The document, which was presented to N.A.T.O., asked that special attention should be given to this matter.
  If the free nations are to defend themselves according to these articles which they signed, and which again are repeated in the new Agreement made between the

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  nine countries, to which the Foreign Secretary called special attetion, we must obtain agreement in that way for the general defence not only of our freedom but of our humanity as well.
  Now I come to the final and most important matter. The Statement on Defence very rightly states that what we desire above everything is to have a permanent peace. It states:
  "The Government will continue to strive for a practical scheme of disarmament and a contribution to the alleviation of international tension and the avoidance of war. Their ultimate aim is abolition of the use, possession and manufacture not only of all nuclear weapons, but also of other weapons of mass destruction, together with simultaneous major reductions of conventional armaments and armed forces to agreed levels which would redress the present Communist superiority.
  The whole programme would have to be carried out to an agreed timetable, and an essential feature would be the provision of machinery to supervise and enforce agreed prohibitions and reductions."
  I call attention to the word "enforce."
  How many more resolutions on disarmament are going to be passed and nothing more happen? How many more meetings are to be called? One is being held now in London. Obviously, it is agreed that there must be set up machinery sufficiently powerful to supervise and to receive recognition. In the words of the Statement, it must be sufficiently powerful
  "… machinery to supervise and enforce agreed prohibitions and reductions."
  and to see that disarmament has taken place. Or, to quote the words of the Minister of Supply in a speech in New York, on 6th November last:
  "… to see that there is complete disarmament of all the nations so that this crime cannot start again."
  I do not know what is the view of the Government. When can we know what the machinery is to be, what is in their mind, what is their plan? The whole world is waiting. The Government know perfectly well that the anxiety in every home is for peace. How do they hope to attain it? Cannot they put forward a plan and say, "This is what we propose. Let those who desire peace as we desire it come and join us to try to attain it."
  7.0 p.m.
  Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer: It is a very great pleasure to follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party in
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  what was not an electioneering speech or a speech intended to create mischief between us and America.
  I should not be able to follow him, but I should like to say one thing in answer to a question—a rhetorical question, I imagine—which he asked. I hope he will not think it presumptuous of me if I give what I believe to be the answer. He asked whether there was an exchange of information between us and the United States in the matters of hydrogen and nuclear weapons. I understand that the answer is in the negative. For constitutional reasons under the McMahon Act, the United States are not permitted to do that, much as President Eisenhower would like to do it. A certain amount has passed with regard to the results of any experiments which have been carried out, but at the moment that is as far as the United States is able to go without amendment of the McMahon Act.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman is correct in what he says about standardisation, but the picture is not quite as bad as he has painted it. We have gone a very long way in this matter. I know a certain amount about this, because I have a near relation who is in Washington at the moment doing something about it. We have gone much further than most people would imagine. However, it is a most difficult problem because it means the retooling and rejigging of a whole industry in one country or the other, and, naturally, neither country is eager to do this. There is the problem of screw threads; in one country the threads go one way and in the other country they go the other way, which adds to the difficulty.
  I want now to turn to the body and subject of the debate. I have a slightly different point of view on everything that has already been said. We have been talking for two whole days about what is to happen when the hot war breaks out. We have talked very little about the cold war. I am one of those who contend that there is not the slightest chance of a hot war breaking out for a very considerable period, and I will give my reason for that.
  I believe there was not much likelihood of it in the days of the atomic bomb itself. There was, first of all, the reconnaissance in force in France by the Communists and then the reconnaissance in force in Italy, and then there was the action which

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  led to the Berlin airlift. As soon as those moves by the Russians failed, the danger of an all-out attack followed by a global war in the West certainly diminished. I believe that it has now almost disappeared with the advent of the hydrogen bomb. I will give the reasons why I think so.
  It is my firm belief that Russia realises that a global war, atomic or not, would destroy everything that she has built up in the last thirty years. If there was such a war, the Russians would have to start again from scratch. In the H-bomb era the Russians know perfectly well that the resultant state of the world would be no guarantee whatever that Russian Communism would necessarily emerge from it. In fact, it is very doubtful whether anything which could even be recognised as human would emerge from it.
  However, this it not to say—I say this with all the emphasis at my disposal— that the object of Russian foreign policy today is not exactly the same as it was a hundred years ago. It is still world domination, only now it has the adjective "Communist" attached to it. Karl Marx, writing in 1867, stated that the dates might change, the names might change and the tactics might change, but:
  "… the Polar star of Russian foreign policy, world domination, is a fixed star."
  His words are as true today as they were when he set them down.
  The Russians have decided that the shortest way to world domination as the situation is now is through the cold war. Their attention has been taken away from the West. The whole of their emphasis is now on the Far East, and they are driving as hard as they can in that direction, towards Burma, Siam and India. They know that that is now the shortest cut to their objective. The Russians are in no hurry about it. They have been perfectly frank about it. They have said "Communism will come. World Communism is inevitable." Should we lower our guard and make world war the shortest cut to world domination, the Russians would take that cut. That is why it is essential for us to keep up our armaments in order to put off the evil day.
  I believe that the Russians will continue with their subversion, their infiltration, their creation of discontent in the
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  Colonies, the use of fear and the suppression of truth. As Lenin said:
  "Success is the only test of morality."
  That is what is going to happen, and it is a very serious threat. Do not let us minimise it by any means. From time to time one of the footlights which surround the Iron Curtain will have a short-circuit and will burst into flames, and somebody will have to put the fire out. Other little fires will break out in other parts of the world, and in the Colonies.
  Having now decided that the H-bomb is a deterrent to a global war, we should, I believe, concentrate all our energies and thoughts on how we are to deal with it, what sort of weapons we are to have, and what sort of Services we need to deal with the "forest" fires as they break out from time to time. We are to have four Regular divisions in Germany, and I am delighted that we are. From the Army point of view, it is about the only part of the world in which we really have a proper training ground where we can train the four divisions and practise the orthodox arts of war with the heavy guns, the heavy tanks and all the support that is required. When we have 12 German divisions, similar things can happen.
  Those people must be there in case a short cut ever comes. The balance, the Regular Army—I am not including the Territorial Army in this—and the strategic reserve which we are at last to have in this country, should be trained and equipped on a light level, with light automatics, light machine guns, light carriers and mobile vehicles, all of them air transported.
  Do not let us have any of the arguments about putting a division in South-East Asia, another division in the Middle East and another division in Iceland or somewhere else. Let us keep them concentrated. One of the first principles of war is concentration, and the whole of that reserve should be here. It should be capable of being flown with all the equipment that is needed to put out one of the small fires coming from the fused footlights. It must be a fire brigade and must be capable of travelling to the fire at 300 miles an hour. I emphasise that this is the place to keep the strategic reserve. To have it dotted about the world would mean that we should be weak everywhere and not strong anywhere. The French learnt the lesson of

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  not having a strategic reserve at the beginning of the last war. Let us remember that lesson.
  There is only one thing in the White Paper which disturbs me a little. I shall get support on this from the other side of the House and certainly from those elements below the Gangway. I refer to the use of nuclear weapons in the field in a tactical rôle. I believe that the whole previous situation has been completely reversed. Whereas, in previous wars, the battle started and then subsequently somebody had to make the decision, as a result of ourselves having been attacked in that way, that the bombing of civilians would have to take place, if there was an attack in the west now—I think I have already shown in what I have said that I do not think it is in the least likely—I believe that that situation would be reversed. I believe—it would be a terrible decision to have to make—that the Western Powers would have to decide whether or not they were going to use the major strategic H-bombs for the blotting out of the centres of industry and war effort of the enemy.
  I do not want to see the tactical weapon used in the field first, because that would inevitably bring H-bomb retaliation on our own heads. Having said that—and I want to be realistic about it—I believe that it is essential that these weapons should be there. They should be kept and stock piled in rear areas in case the enemy should use them. I do not suppose that at this stage it matters for me to say that we had gas shells not very far behind the lines in the last war in case the enemy should use them. That is the way we should go about handling these atomic tactical weapons.
  Mr. William Warbey: I think we ought to be clear about the point the hon. and gallant Member is making and know whether it is really the policy of the Government, or not. What he is saying is that if there should be an attack in Europe by Russian land forces, we should not reply with tactical nuclear weapons, but that we should reply with strategic thermo-nuclear weapons on Russian cities. He is really advocating that.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Will the hon. Member please read what I have said
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  in the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow morning?
  I think it is within the memory of the House that I said that it would be a most appalling decision for anybody to have to take—and it might have to be taken. It would be a decision that would have to be faced by the Western Powers. I did not advocate it and I hope that the hon. Member will not try, outside or inside the House, to suggest that I did. He asked whether I was speaking on behalf of the Government. I am speaking at this moment on behalf of the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing.
  Mr. Warbey Mr. Warbey rose—
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I have made it perfectly clear—as clear as the English at my command will allow—and I do not intend to proceed on that basis any more.
  I believe that in the west our strength on the ground is at present a sufficient deterrent. I am fully aware that for an attack in the last stages of the previous war to be successful a five to one preponderance was necessary, and that was when we had complete and absolute air power. The Russians know it perfectly well. They are realists and as long as our strength on the ground is increased and consolidated and our air power maintained, then I do not believe that an attack in the west would be contemplated by the Russians, even though they intended to indulge in global war.
  It was rather an anomaly that in 1914 we consistently prepared for advance and were in retreat from the very first day. I believe that it may be found that the Army in Germany, which has been preparing for defence ever since the war, may be asked to advance. The reason is that if the Russians attack, they will not come across the Elbe, but over the North Pole. What would be the good of taking France? I believe that it is not beyond the bounds of imagination that our Territorial Army, if it is mobilised, will not be sent to Western Europe. It will be sent to Canada. I throw that out as a possibility.
  I hope that these new doctrines will be studied at the staff college, because everybody knows that it is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks. If one has been promoted on a certain set of principles and ideas of training and tactics, one is

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  very reluctant to have to learn entirely anew.
  I want to say a word about the production of weapons, aircraft and the rest, I do not want to make a party political point and say that this party did this, and that party did that. The whole fact of the matter—and it is a very sombre thought—is that the most appalling decision rests in the hands of the Government and the chiefs of staff. It is to decide at what date to go into full production of any weapon whatever it may be. It is a most terrifying decision. On that decision war can be lost or won. And on the information coming from foreign countries that decision must be made and none of us here, without top secret top level documents, can say that war is likely, or not likely, in so many years.
  What is required in the meantime is a dribble of prototypes, just enough to give the R.A.F. practice in the new machines as they come along. That dribble should be kept going so that the decision need not be made until the very last possible moment. We had an example of the Germans with their Mark IV tank in the last war. They went into full production with it, because they thought that the war would be over in eight months. They were saddled with it for nearly four years before they were able to produce anything better. That should be a very great lesson to those on that side of the House who say that we ought to have 500, or 1,000 Hunter aircraft now. If the war did not take place for four years, those aircraft would be obsolete.
  Is it too much to ask in a debate of this kind that we should start thinking of a vast scheme for the voluntary transfer of some of our factories—voluntary I say—and population to our great Dominions? There is the open air and vast resources as yet untaxed, the room, the space and the freedom. Is it not worth serious study to get our children, who have to play in mean back streets, workers who have to work in smoky factory areas, live in dank surroundings—and the clerks and some of the executives—out into God's fresh air? We have had the logic of it, the stark logic of it facing us for many years. Now we have the incentive. Let us see whether something cannot be done on those lines.
  In conclusion, I believe that this or any Government have to continue as we
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  are doing, with patience, striving to the end. I believe that a time will come when a change of heart may be seen among our enemies. I do not believe that any system can exist for ever which relies, for example, on political murder for its strength. I believe that, gradually, there will be a lining to the cloud which will eventually lift altogether. We must go on as we are going and I believe that in the end we shall achieve peace.
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. Tom Driberg: It is quite a pleasant surprise, Mr. Speaker, that the Front Benchers and Privy Councillors who have given us the benefit of their wisdom for so long today are at last listening to us for a change, and are thus making it possible for you, Sir, to see one or two humble back benchers. I shall do my best to keep my promise to you to be brief; and I can help to that end by refraining from reading out the Amendment on the Order Paper in my name and the names of some of my hon. Friends—
  [Leave out from "House" to end and add "regrets the decision of Her Majesty's Government to proceed with the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb without full consideration by Parliament and the nation of the ethical aspects of its use; questions the practical value of the security likely to be provided thereby; refuses to assent to the development of a weapon, of immense and indiscriminate destructive power, whose effect on the life and civilization of mankind may be disastrous; and calls on Her Majesty's Government to regain for Great Britain the moral leadership of the world by taking an initiative, at the present disarmament conference or on other appropriate early occasions, that may lead to the general outlawing of this and other thermo-nuclear weapons."]
  —I gather that you are not, in any case, going to put it to the vote—which does express some of my views about this matter.
  I have considerable sympathy with the last point made by the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer)—his suggestion of mass emigration to the Dominions.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Voluntarily.
  Mr. Driberg: Yes, but the hon. and gallant Member will be the first to appreciate that there are many difficulties even in that agreeable proposal. In the first place, they are not, as he called them, "our" Dominions. Sometimes people from the self-governing Dominions rather resent our tendency to refer to them as our Dominions. The Governments of Canada, Australia and the other Dominions would certainly have to be consulted about the movement of millions of people from this country, which is what I suppose the hon. and gallant Gentleman has in mind.
  Moreover, a basic criticism of his proposal is one of the central themes of this debate—that the destruction caused by nuclear warfare on a large scale is likely to be almost universal. There would be no escape from it anywhere. We often think of this island as a target, but in that very remarkable article by "Cassandra" the other day, recording his interviews at Strategic Air Command H.Q. in Nebraska, he reported their view that the Russians were perfectly likely to ignore Britain as a secondary target and go straight by the Arctic route, over Canada, for Detroit—right over the wide open spaces and the fresh air to which the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing wants to export our slum children. I am not making fun of his suggestion, because it was a sincere and in some ways an attractive one, but, honestly, I am afraid that the hydrogen bomb provides a sinister parallel to the words of the Psalmist:
  "If I climb up into heaven, thou art there: if I go down to hell, thou are there also."
  There is no physical or geographical escape from it anywhere in the world.
  The speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) was notable both intrinsically and for the historic intervention that it elicited from the Prime Minister—with his shatteringly, almost tragically, candid account of the failure of his mission to Washington. I do not want to make a party speech tonight—indeed, I happen to be in disagreement with the majority of my own friends in my party on one important subject that we are discussing—but I could not help contrasting the failure of that mission with the comparative success of the visit to Washington by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition,
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  when he went to see President Truman in December, 1940.
  However, I did not agree at all with my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale when he seemed to brush aside one of the central themes of this debate and of the White Paper—the rights and wrongs, the ethics, of the hydrogen bomb and of nuclear warfare, as in some way secondary or irrelevant to our main discussion. Quite the contrary seems to me to be the case.
  The most important part of this debate has been concerned with the hydrogen bomb as a deterrent, and we ought to consider two aspects of this: first—and I put it first because it seems to me the more important and fundamental aspect—is it the sort of deterrent which we, as relatively civilised human beings, have got any right to use at all? Secondly, suppose we were to agree that that is so, is it likely to be effective?
  The first is the more important consideration. I do not claim for a moment that my own position is perfectly logical about this. I do not pretend to be certain that I am right. On the contrary, this is a terribly difficult dilemma—for all of us, I should have thought. The individual conscience is no more infallible than a collective sense of expediency.
  It is possible, I think, to make a case for saying that the hydrogen bomb is different in kind, partly because it is so immensely different in degree, from all other weapons that have preceded it. My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) drew a very interesting distinction last night between "finite" and "infinite" weapons, as he called them. I am not absolutely certain that I agree with him, but the point is certainly arguable; and the Prime Minister himself lent some weight to that view yesterday by emphasising that there is an "immense gulf," as he put it, between the atomic and the hydrogen bomb. But if that argument is not valid, I would still be prepared to go further and to say, "All right, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale said, perhaps we took the first fatal step during the last war when we agreed to—or, at any rate, did not oppose vigorously, except a few of us—saturation bombing, and then the second fatal step when we used and

  2145
  assented to the atom bomb in 1945."If we were wrong, we can still turn back—
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Will the hon. Gentleman make clear why he says that there is a difference in kind between the atomic and hydrogen bomb and not between conventional bombing and nuclear weapons?
  Mr. Driberg: I advanced that suggestion tentatively, but I think that it is arguable that there is a difference in kind because of the immense difference in degree. It is often said in philosophic argument that there are differences in degree so immense that they become differences in kind. That was the sort of difference that I was suggesting.
  The only two groups of people who are completely logical on this issue are, on the one hand, the absolute pacifists and, on the other hand, what I may call the hydrogen whole-hoggers. We all understand and respect the position of my hon. Friends who are pacifists. I myself do not feel able to share it, but certainly they have the advantage of being completely logical in their opposition to this new and most deadly of weapons.
  On the other hand, the hydrogen whole-hoggers, if I may use that phrase, are perhaps not quite so completely logical. I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) summed up their position yesterday when he said that, in certain circumstances, we would retaliate with everything we had got. Did he—or do they—really mean everything? Do they mean gas, which was referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing? Do they mean bacteriological warfare? Suppose that these instruments were thought effective, do they mean that we have now reached this point—no matter how appalling, how inhumane a method of warfare may be, we shall use it if it is effective, or threaten to if that may be conceived to be an effective deterrent?
  It seems to me that people who advocate the use of nuclear weapons generally, and the hydrogen bomb in particular, cannot very well say of gas and bacteriological warfare, and other methods which we have always hitherto considered atrocious and barbarous, "Oh, no. We would never dream of using those; they are much too horrible"—because all the
  2146
  accounts given to us of the results of radioactivity show that no gas, no bacteriological warfare, no disease, could be worse, could be more utterly horrific. So that argument presumably falls: we have reached the point at which we discard all the last remaining vestiges of chivalry or decency in warfare that we did at least retain during the Second World War, at any rate up to nearly the end of it.
  This is really part—the most crucial and urgent part—of the old argument about ends and means. I have heard, among others, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition speak very cogently about this, saying that one of our quarrels with the Russians is that they seem to act on the doctrine, which we repudiate, that the end justifies the means, and pointing out that even if you have an end which looks good, which looks desirable, if you use absolutely impermissible and wrong means to achieve it, the end will be corrupted by those means, and will not in fact be attained.
  This is not just abstract theorising. It is surely important to get our principles straight, to understand what we really mean before we proceed with these death-dealing policies and weapons. If only the Government would realise it, if only advocates of nuclear warfare as a necessary evil would realise it, they are simply paraphrasing the quotation from Lenin given by the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing. He quoted Lenin as having said:
  "Success is the only test of morality."
  They say, in effect, I am afraid, "The effectiveness of the deterrent is the only test we apply. We do not bother about whether it is right or wrong, whether its use is otherwise permissible or not. If it works, we use it."
  We have had the word "deterrent" discussed quite a lot recently in other contexts also. In the recent debate on capital punishment, there was a good deal of talk about whether it was an effective deterrent or not. I suppose that it is just legitimate to make a rather far-fetched analogy, and to say that we could devise a more effective and grim deterrent to murder in this country if we hanged, not only the murderer, but his whole family as well, or if even more appalling penalties were imposed on those associated with him. But, of course, such a

  2147
  proposal would be inconceivable. It would be condemned immediately by public opinion. It seems to me that there is a parallel here which we ought seriously to consider.
  The second main argument is whether this deterrent, the hydrogen bomb, is likely to be effective, quite apart from whether it is right or wrong to use it or threaten to use it. Personally—and again I emphasise that I speak diffidently, and only for myself, because no one can be sure about these hypothetical matters—I think the danger of having the bomb is, if anything, somewhat greater than the deterrent effect of it is likely to be.
  I thought that the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) was rather optimistic in his speech of yesterday when he said:
  "At present, we are not faced with a crisis. There is no threat of war such as would involve the use of the hydrogen weapon."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 1973.]
  Well, there is, after all, a very serious crisis about Formosa. We all know that there are certain differences about Formosa, which I need not go into here, between the British Government and the American Government.
  We know that a situation might quite easily arise in Formosa in which Chiang Kai-shek and his American supporters would start a war against the Chinese Communists on the mainland—if, that is to say, there were an occupation by the Communists, not merely of Formosa itself, but even of one or two other disputed islands. Under the A.N.Z.U.S. Pact, to which we are not a party, Australia and New Zealand might very well be involved in such a war, and the Prime Minister said the other day in this House that he could not conceive of any warlike situation in which we should not find ourselves at the side of Australia and New Zealand.
  Mr. S. Silverman: It was the Foreign Secretary.
  Mr. Driberg: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. It was the Foreign Secretary—at any rate, a spokesman of the Government.
  In other words, if some dispute about some islands off the Chinese coast involved the Americans in a war with Communist China, we would almost certainly be dragged in, perhaps via the
  2148
  A.N.Z.U.S. Pact, or via the United Nations, or in some other way. It could hardly be suggested that a war against the vast land mass of China would be, in any sense of the words, a minor local war, or a war in which all these weapons would not be used from the start. There has been a great deal of discussion today about the exact meaning of the White Paper reference to our possible use of nuclear weapons from the start and not merely by way of retaliation. I think that the Prime Minister answered our questions about that in advance yesterday, in his speech, when he said:
  "During that period"—
  that is to say the next three or four years—
  "it is most unlikely that the Russians would deliberately embark on major war or attempt a surprise attack, either of which would bring down upon them at once a crushing weight of nuclear retaliation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537; c. 1905.]
  So that seems to me to answer in the affirmative the questions which, quite rightly, my right hon. and hon. Friends have been pressing on various Government spokesmen; and I do not know why the Government spokesmen were so cagey about answering.
  I have already referred once to that remarkable article in the "Daily. Mirror." A point that was emphasised tremendously in that article was the insistence by the Strategic Air Command in America on the infinite value of getting in first, on getting that split-second start over your antagonist in nuclear warfare. Does anybody doubt that from the very word "go", if there were to be another major war—and I for one would certainly not say that a war in which China was involved was anything but a major war—these weapons would be used, and that we should be involved?
  Therefore, I say to the Government, and this may be the last occasion on which we in this House will have the opportunity of saying it—alas, we shall not have the opportunity of saying it directly, but some of us will say it indirectly by abstaining from voting on the official Opposition Amendment—"For God's sake stop, and think a little longer, before developing this terrible weapon."
  One or two other points, and I have done; I am sorry if I am over-running

  2149
  my time. The Prime Minister's speech contained an obscure and rather alarming passage about lunatics. He said:
  "That is a blank."
  He said that everyone would have to admit that if some lunatic took over, if a psychopath, like Hitler in his last days, did have this nuclear weapon, he would probably use it in desperation. He also said:
  "Happily, we may find methods of protecting ourselves, if we were all agreed, against that".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 1905.]
  I do not really know what that means. Perhaps the Minister of Defence will tell us.
  It is, I think, relevant and just permissible to say that the only senior statesman in East or West in recent years who has been what could be described as a certifiable lunatic was not a Russian, or a German, or a European, but an American, who had held high executive position in the United States at a crucial time when the strategy and policy of the United States were being worked out.
  I do not think that it is alleged by most people that the men of the Kremlin are lunatics. Quite the contrary. It is usually said that they are ruthless, hard-faced realists. But chronic fear has been the motive of strategy and policy in Russia and America alike over the last few years. Chronic fear can become acute at any moment. Fear tends to make people nervy, jumpy, trigger-happy. Worse than trigger-happy is hydrogen-happy, and if there is one thing which is precisely as bad as having a hydrogen-happy enemy it is having a hydrogen-happy ally. Therefore, I plead with the Government and with the House, even at this late moment, to turn back and to think again.
  What practical advantage could there be in our possessing this deterrent in addition to the United States stocks of it? The Prime Minister said that we should have no influence with our allies or with the world without these nuclear weapons. I disagree. Is the Prime Minister seriously suggesting that British influence and British prestige in the world depend upon our material and military strength alone, or even primarily? If so, we have, of course, lost it already because we all know that for many years now our material wealth has been less relatively to that of the United States than it was in the 19th
  2150
  century. World supremacy in material wealth has passed across the Atlantic irrevocably.
  Surely we have somewhat different and, I hope, higher values; it is not by nuclear might that we shall impress and influence our friends and allies. India does not have the hydrogen bomb, and Mr. Nehru repudiated with contempt the suggestion that she should have it. Yet India, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition will agree, has played a notable part in world diplomacy and international politics in the last year or two.
  The Prime Minister referred movingly to God wearying of the follies of mankind. I can only say that, if we go ahead with these weapons as is proposed, I am reminded of Thomas Hardy's famous poem about the moon looking down on the earth and thinking that it is
  "… a show.
  God ought surely to shut up soon …"
  7.43 p.m.
  Mr. P. B. Lucas: With the Opposition's official Amendment now on the Order Paper, one's first inclination in this debate is to retaliate. I must say that, having listened to nearly all the speeches which have been made, I have been surprised at their mildness, and I do not think that the speech of the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) is any exception. I cannot say that I agree with many of his conclusions, but I certainly felt that he made a thoughtful and a sincere contribution.
  It was not until the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) intervened in the debate late last night, and made what I thought were some wholly misleading statements, that one really felt that there was any motion of censure about this debate at all. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is not in his place, but I only wish to refer to one remark which he made. He said that the Hunter aircraft could not easily be flown in formation. His actual words were:
  "We have some 80 Hunters not yet fully airworthy. They cannot fly in formation, which is an indication that they are out of control."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 1998.]
  I just do not believe that to be the fact. Certainly, the view is not shared by some of the pilots with whom I have talked and who have flown these aircraft. Indeed, one of the remarkable things

  2151
  about these aeroplanes is that they can be flown so easily, even by new and inexperienced pilots in the squadron. I think that one has to be fair about this, both to the pilots themselves and also to the manufacturers.
  In the few minutes that I shall detain the House, I shall confine myself to one or two general observations on some of the new problems of air power and the means of producing it. For those of us who, in the last few years, have been advocating the principle of the establishment of a strategic bomber force as the prime feature of modern defence, this year's Statement on Defence is most encouraging. At the same time, with the development of strategic power, which is two-sided, new problems arise. I have long believed that once we reach the stage where offensive aircraft can operate at heights above 50,000 feet and at speeds near the speed of sound, the advantage for a time may well rest with the attacker.
  There is a lot of room in the sky at 50,000 feet, and today we are no longer thinking in terms of the great bombing fleets which could be seen from the air perhaps 15 and 20 miles away, but rather of the single lethal attacker flying at great heights, perhaps at night, and at great speeds. In such circumstances, the difficulties of achieving successful interceptions become very serious indeed, and I question whether they are fully understood.
  The gap between defence and attack is being narrowed. No longer is the advantage necessarily with the well-equipped and highly-controlled defending force, but rather with the single lethal attacker. With the advent of nuclear weapons, only a few of these aircraft have to get through, to impair not only our chances of retaliation, but even, perhaps, survival. Thus, the most effective defence must be the one which offers the best chance of preventing an attack from ever taking place at all.
  It was on such a basis that, four years ago, when very few people in this country were thinking on similar lines, that Lord Trenchard began his campaign for the establishment of a strategic bomber force. He wrote a letter to "The Times" which, in the light of this White Paper, contained a strangely prophetic observation. This is what he said in 1950:
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  "The vital over-riding defensive measure to prevent war, and, in the event of war, to win it, is an overwhelming, unchallengeable air force of long-range machines."
  There were many at that time who violently criticised this opinion, but Lord Trenchard's premise is now accepted. The main base of our defence is to be the strategic arm of the R.A.F., just as lately the major deterrent to aggression has rested upon the United States Strategic Air Command in the hands of General Curtis Le May. One can hardly imagine in this country a more responsible military appointment than that which will vest in the hands of a single Air Force officer, the command and operational control of the V-Force.
  Here I would say to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence that, when this force is established, I hope he will give his special attention to the way it is presented, for no one knows more about presentation than he does. The Air Force—and I say this to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary—by tradition, shuns publicity. The fear of being accused of what in the jargon is called "shooting a line" still haunts the Service. I am inclined to think that it has been carried to such lengths now as to prejudice its status.
  The Royal Navy has been called, in the cliché, the "Silent Service," but I have never noticed anything particularly silent about its publicity. It has probably got to be good in these days, but I have always felt that it has been extremely good, and probably the best of the three Services. But no better example of the presentation of a military force can, in my opinion, be found than in the case of the United States Strategic Air Command. True, it has had the resources—the fleet of inter-continental bombers and a superb and imaginative organisation. But the glare of world publicity has been allowed to focus upon it and to add to its status as the greatest modern deterrent force to aggression.
  The speed with which we can get these V-class bombers into the squadrons is now paramount. This leads me to my final and concluding point, and prompts the question: is the procedure followed by successive Governments for producing military aircraft really the most efficient and the most effective which can be

  2153
  devised? In particular, is it really necessary for the Ministry of Supply to continue to discharge its present functions, or could we not revert to the procedure which we had before the war—or a compromise of it—whereby the Air Ministry dealt direct with the manufacturers?
  One fact has become clear. In the supply of aircraft since the war the user and the manufacturer have been too remote from each other. There has been insufficient liaison between the squadrons and the makers of their equipment. Moreover, there has been too great a delay in giving the Service its first opportunity to evaluate the latest types of aircraft. As a case in point, it was not until Wing Commander Bird-Wilson, one of the most accomplished of Service pilots, was able to test the swept-wing fighters, at the Royal Air Force's Central Fighter Establishment, that we began to know the truth about these aircraft operationally and could make a start on some of the necessary modifications. The work which he put in at West Raynham has gone unsung, but it was quite invaluable. The pity is that he was not given the chance to get his hands on these aeroplanes at an early stage in their development.
  I believe that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply has done a great deal to bring user and manufacturer closer together and to give them a better opportunity to represent directly to each other their various difficulties and problems. I do not think that too much use can be made either of the Ministry of Supply's Experimental Establishment at Boscombe Down or of the Royal Air Force's central fighter and bomber establishments in the early development of military aircraft.
  I trust that with the Government's wise decision to order a development batch of 20 P.I fighters it may be possible to send one or two of these aircraft to West Raynham at the same time as they go to Boscombe. If it is not possible to send them at the same time I hope that they can be sent very soon afterwards. Much the same arguments apply to the two latest V-bombers. The sooner the user—the Service—can get its hands on these aircraft the sooner we shall have them in satisfactory squadron service. That is one of the outstanding lessons that we have learned from the last few years, and I hope that we shall profit from it in the future.
  7.53 p.m.
  Mr. Percy Daines: When I listened to the Prime Minister yesterday I was very much impressed by the grandeur of his tone and the greatness of his words. That fact was brought very much to my mind again when my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) spoke this afternoon. I could not help thinking that his complaint about the phrasing and grandeur of tone of the Prime Minister sounded a trifle ironic. I suppose that even those of us who have reservations about my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale will agree that he, also, is a master of phrases. In my opinion, the difference is that whereas the Prime Minister's phrases are premeditated and stand the test of time, those of my right hon. Friend are unpremeditated and do not stand the test of time.
  I do not object to frankness of expression—one takes everything in one's stride in this place—but I suppose that there is not a single hon. Member who, at some time of the day and every day, is not conscious of the terrible threat that overhangs civilisation because of the development of the hydrogen and atomic bombs. I frankly confess that not a single day of my life passes but that at some time during it I am, as it were, overawed at the terrible fate which may face mankind.
  There are times in history where one can mark out the course of a revolutionary change. One that comes readily to mind is the change from the bow and arrow to gunpowder. The other great change which has come into our lives recently is that which we made when we decided, with the Americans, to make the atomic bomb. When I was listening to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale I was very conscious of the fact that he was a Member of a Government which I supported, and which decided to begin the manufacture of the atomic bomb in this country. I cannot, therefore, see how he can claim any difference in principle between the hydrogen and the atomic bomb upon moral grounds.
  Like many other hon. Members, I was not at all clear what my right hon. Friend meant when he spoke about the European position. I ask him quite straightly, so that he can read it—he rarely honours us with his presence when it is a question of listening to speeches and not making

  2155
  them—what is he proposing? If the overwhelming weight of manpower of the Russians and their satellites is moved into action, are we to be debarred from using any form of atomic weapons against them? I think that we should be told, in order clearly to understand his position.
  I am not too well informed upon these matters, but I think I am correct in saying that among the armaments that we have created under N.A.T.O. we at least have atomic shells. Does my right hon. Friend mean that their use is ruled out? As far as I understand it, the logic of his position is that if the Russian objective of clearing the Americans out of Europe is proceeded with—when they think the cards are stacked favourably—we must not use that form of atomic weapon against them but must capitulate.
  I reject that argument completely. I am prepared to face the facts and to state the position as I see it. If I had to choose between slavery under the Russian system and taking the chance of using a deterrent, I would use that deterrent. I have no illusions in the matter. I wish that hon. Members on both sides of the House would read some of the information which is coming from the United States. I would say to the United States authorities that it is a pity that they do not copy some of the propaganda of the Russians and make contacts with British people to the extent that the Russians and their satellites do, in order to help us to understand them.
  Upon the published information—and I shall try not to overstate it—the position is that if a modern hydrogen bomb were dropped upon Portsmouth at a time when there was a south-west wind, the whole of these islands would be immobilised. According to the published information, the lethal fall-out from the explosion of one hydrogen bomb in the Pacific covered an area of 7,000 square miles. That is an awful fact, and one which I do not burke in the remarks that I am making.
  I believe that only by unity and integration with America and other free nations shall we reach a position where our economic and industrial power can stand up to that of the Russians. In the long run, economic power is the reality of power.
  There are confusing elements in this situation. There are the old-time pacifists
  2156
  of my party, a relic of the First World War. I respect them, and I make no comment against them. There is also a latent sense of jingoism, not only in my party but occasionally on the other side of the House, which resents the fact that America is No. 1 Power today while we are No. 3. That is one of the most important factors that sometimes causes us to misunderstand the position between ourselves and America.
  It will be far more realistic if we spend some of our time today in dealing with the cold war, because it is going to go on. If the hot war comes—well, I have stated my position—it means obliteration. I want to face up, therefore, to the cold war which is now taking place. We are far more likely, if the balance were to shift against us in Europe, to see happen something like what happened when the Russians moved into Czechoslovakia. They maintained their army on the frontier while the subversion boys moved in and hived off the opposition. I am informed that the European strategic army of the Russians is in Poland. That is the background all the time to the West German position.
  The Russians are aiming at complete control of Europe in order that the economy of West Germany can be added to their own, and give them economic parity with America. One of the most confusing factors is that we will persist in thinking of the struggle in terms of nation States. Every member of the Communist Party is a potential traitor to his country, unless he is in Russia, and every member of the Communist Party, whatever else he may be doing, is a potential fighter for Russian policy.
  Some hon. Members still think they are back in the political climate of 50 years ago. I doubt whether we can go on much longer with that luxury. We keep the rules but we must not go on thinking that people who are political conspirators are going to keep the rules as well. I have spoken on this subject before in this House, and I make no apology. I believe that we grossly underrate the power and the menace of the Communist forces in this country. There is a small Communist Party getting a handful of electoral votes, but behind it is a powerful conspiracy in which, very often, 12 determined men can get a result out of

  2157
  all proportion to the total strength of the party.
  I will go further. I could name industries in which, if the orders were given, strikes would automatically take place. It is not without significance that the two industries in which we have had the greatest demonstrations are one affecting the power of the country and the other the docks, almost the jugular veins of our economy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is all very well to say, "Hear, hear." I have made this speech before. I made it after an important strike, and the facts were published In a White Paper, but we have done nothing about it.
  These things cannot be tackled by legislation, and I do not want them done in the American way. Why do not people in the trade union movement who know these things do something about it in a positive form so that it can be counteracted? Underneath the industrial machine is another part of the Communist apparatus which would swing readily into action if the cold war heats up. One has only to read the evidence of the various spy trials to see how the apparatus works.
  When I listen to speeches in this House I sometimes ponder how even we, who call ourselves "democrats," do not get infected with some of the double-talk that is the Communist jargon. I do not think that Orwell's book "1984" is any exaggeration of our peril. On many platforms one hears that war is peace and peace is war, democracy is dictatorship and dictatorship is democracy, until we do not know where we stand. We all dismiss it very lightly, but do we realise that on the first day we came back after the Christmas Recess we faced an organised demonstration of mass intimidation? That was not a genuine peace demonstration but a powerfully organised Communist demonstration, using innocent people who are influenced by the word "peace." The purpose was to intimidate the members of my party to change their attitude on German rearmament. That is a luxury that we can hardly afford.
  It was Communist demonstration right the way through. In the Lobby an ex-Communist Member of this House was controlling the whole of the proceedings. What would have happened to them in glorious Russia if anybody had tried to
  2158
  make that sort of thing happen? I have not the slightest doubt that, in the "Daily Worker" tomorrow morning, I shall be "plastered" as an enemy of democracy because I have had the audacity to bring these things to the light of day. The purpose of this organisation is to break down the will of the people to resist; but we must face the fact that Russia has an army in every country that moves to its dictates.
  I would call attention to the very interesting book that has been published by Her Majesty's Government, "Treatment of British Prisoners of War in Korea." Much as I appreciate their doing this, I would say that they will have to go a lot farther. We want the documents on which the book is based. I do not say they do not exist but we want them, and we want all the facts. I want more than that; I want action against some of the people named. If these charges are accurate they should be put to the test of law. I refer hon. Members to the pages dealing with the visits to prisoner-of-war camps, and I say bluntly to Her Majesty's Government that men were executed at the end of the last war for crimes no worse than are alleged against these people.
  It is not good enough for us to read all this while pretending that it is not what it is. When I read about the so-called "National Assembly of Women" I immediately thought, "What would we have done when the war was on with Germany if a German-controlled organisation had gone round to our prisoner-of-war camps and done exactly the same thing?" It is part of a campaign of disintegration to break us up. These are not pleasant or happy things to say. This is a dangerous world, and unless we have courage to face the facts honestly the Russians will have won their fight without the price of war.
  8.9 p.m.
  Mr. Ian Harvey: We have listened to a profoundly interesting speech by the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Dairies), whom I am glad to follow. I have given my word that in this debate, which has been predominantly conducted by Privy Councillors, I shall be extremely brief. The hon. Gentleman has helped me, because there is nothing which he has said with which I am not in total agreement,

  2159
  and I would thank him for the very amiable tribute he paid to the Prime Minister.
  I turn to one aspect of the debate which, I think, has gone unnoticed. This is, I think, the first defence debate in which the Home Secretary has actively intervened. That is an indication of the importance the Government attach to Civil Defence as the fourth arm of defence. I listened with the greatest interest to what my right hon. and gallant Friend said on the proposals the Government have outlined in the White Paper. I would say to him, with the greatest respect, that I regard these proposals as mostly interim ones, because I think they have to be taken very much further along the way to their logical conclusion.
  We have debated this matter very often, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) has been with us on all those occasions. It must be quite clear by now that if any arm of defence is to be truly an arm it must have leadership, it must have organisation, and, above everything else, especially in this sphere, it must have morale. I submit very respectfully that the various elements now assembled under the umbrella of Civil Defence lack the essential leadership, lack the essential organisation, which will give to the whole structure the morale it essentially needs if it is to perform its function, which is the defence of the home citadel. The point has been made time and time again in our debates that if we are to maintain our defence structure throughout the world we must be quite certain that the home citadel is secure, because we cannot operate our Defence Forces elsewhere if the men in them feel that it is not.
  We have taken measures so far to increase the mobile support which is to be given to the local defence, which is to go on as before. I am one of those who believe that there is no substitute for the local self-defence of our citizens. There must always be local self-defence under the local authority, as was conceived originally in the National Service Acts. I am sure that that is right. However, the supporting forces, which go to the assistance of the localities in the event of their being saturated, must be on a new model, and that new model must have a regular element, a voluntary
  2160
  element, and, under modern conditions, a National Service element. That is why I feel that we have to go further in this course to make it possible to call up National Service men as of right direct to Civil Defence.
  I say "as of right," because that is a most important aspect of the matter, because the whole future of Civil Defence, the success of the Civil Defence organisation, depends upon the psychological approach of the nation towards this arm of home defence. It is no good maintaining the old ideas that active service in the field is the most important aspect. Home defence is now a front line operation, which requires men every bit as fit and able and trained as those who were drafted in the last war into the Commandos and the Paratroops.
  That is a fact that has to be understood by the nation, and it will be understood by the nation only if the proper priorities and psychological approach are given by the Government to the Civil Defence organisation. I urge the Minister of Defence to discuss this matter more closely with the Home Secretary, because at the moment the measures which have been taken, though they have an effect on success, will not in themselves make for success.
  Because of the lack of time now I do not wish tonight to deal with the other important aspects of the defence of the home front, or with aircraft. I think we shall have an opportunity to discuss them at a later date. I would, however, make this observation. We are aware that guided missiles are not available. That has been made clear in the debate. The structure into which the guided missiles have to fit is not available either at present. It is not outlined anywhere in any of the White Papers we have had. That structure ought now to be defined and established, and I wish to press the Under-Secretary of State for Air and the Secretary of State for War to tell us, when we debate their Service Estimates, what their detailed proposals are.
  Mr. Wigg:Would the hon. Gentleman be good enough to say whether he thinks it is satisfactory that we have had to wait all these months for a scheme for the disposal of the Territorial Army units which have been disbanded or amalgamated?
  Mr. Harvey:I prefer to await the statement by my right hon. Friend of the reasons for the present situation before commenting on that. I am sure that there will be an opportunity for both the hon. Member and me to do so.
  The Amendment which has been moved by the Opposition is tantamount to a motion of censure. However, we have had some variations on the theme from various quarters. Having sat through the debate, in which I have been profoundly interested, and which has been most important, it would appear to me, that while there are those who endorse the maintenance of conventional weapons, there are people in another camp who do not endorse the maintenance of conventional weapons.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: No.
  Mr. Harvey: That has been very strongly suggested.
  Then, again, there are those who object to all weapons. With their point of view we have sympathy, even if we do not agree with it. However, perhaps the most extraordinary division that has occurred is that which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelrnan) have made between the hydrogen bomb and the atomic bomb and conventional weapons.
  To try to draw a line between the atomic bomb and the hydrogen bomb is ridiculous, because both are parts of nuclear development, though one is a greater nuclear development than the other. It is illogical to draw that line. I think that the reason why the line is drawn is that the Leader of the Opposition and the Government he led started the development of the atomic bomb and were supported by all hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite and that now some of them wish to draw back, and, to provide a suitable line behind which to withdraw, they draw a line between the atomic and the hydrogen bombs. That is a palpably ridiculous attitude.
  The whole of this operation has recoiled upon the heads of those who started it. It is quite clear that the right hon. Gentleman opposite and his followers, and those who are sometimes his followers, and some who, quite clearly,
  2162
  are not his followers at all, are not in a position to criticise, either on the ground of their past record or on that of their future intentions.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) ended his speech in this debate on a most dramatic note, crying, "Pace, pace, pace." The right hon. Gentleman quoted a phrase from the late Walter Rathenau in defence of the argument that, if one pursues peace in that sort of way, one would eventually find it but what happened to Walter Rathenau? He went back to Germany, where he was promptly murdered by men of violence, who were very much the same sort of people with whom we are having difficulty in the world today. I did not think that it was a very happy selection on which to base the remarkable speech which the right hon. Gentleman made today.
  Finally, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale, in an almost more dramatic climax, said "Let us take the lead." I would only say to the right hon. Gentleman, who, as usual, is not here to listen to anybody else, "What with, and with whom?"
  8.21 p.m.
  Mr. Victor Yates: I could be tempted to follow the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Ian Harvey), who has introduced some rather interesting points, but I will comment on only two which he mentioned, because I, too, have promised to be very brief.
  I thought that when the Home Secretary intervened yesterday he displayed the weakest part of the Government's case. After it was made clear that there was no real defence against the hydrogen bomb, I thought that his talk about the methods by which Civil Defence was to be organised was ridiculous. Now that the hon. Gentleman suggests that National Service men shall be more or less compelled to enter this service, it does not look as if conscription in this country is to be abolished for a very long time.
  I should also like to take up his point about the hydrogen bomb being quite different from the atom bomb. It is true that both these bombs are evil, but I think that the hydrogen bomb is so disastrous that to renounce its manufacture is to renounce war altogether.
  I have listened to defence debates in the House for the last ten years, and I

  2163
  think this is the first time for three years that I have managed to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. In some respects, the debate has certainly proved the grimmest debate which we have ever experienced. All the White Papers issued in the past ten years have shown how unrealistic are those who have written them, yet those of us who have attacked these statements from time to time have always been regarded as being on the lunatic fringe of the House of Commons. The same invisible pen is behind all these White Papers, and, up to last year, their main theme was that we were to achieve peace through strength. This year, it is not peace through strength, but peace through deterrents.
  The Prime Minister, and, apparently, many hon. Members, are now justifying the manufacture of the deadliest of all weapons because they say that in this deadly weapon lies the hope of peace. I say that it is unadulterated bunkum to say that the hope of peace can lie in the manufacture, the possession or the use of this most terrible weapon. If the Prime Minister and the House believe that there is a deterrent effect in this machine of death and destruction, upon what evidence do they base their conclusion? I cannot discover any evidence in history that shows that by the threat of physical torture, by the threat of destruction, or even of death itself, communities or individuals are deterred from wrong-doing.
  Mr. Harmar Nicholls: Poison gas.
  Mr. Yates: I agree as to poison gas and the rest, but, in fact, whatever we call the deterrent, which is the imposition of physical torture it has never prevented wrong-doing.
  I have been following very closely the question of crime in this country, and I must say that I do not believe that any kind of physical torture really deters people from committing crimes. It is obvious that the threat of capital punishment does not deter people from committing murder, and I do not believe that the threat of mass destruction would, in fact, deter communities from taking wrong action when believing that what they did was right, whether they were directed by a madman or not.
  2164
  I should have thought that the last world war, with its most horrible results in 21 million men killed and 30 million homes reduced to ashes, as well as the cost in money which would have provided such great benefits for mankind, had demonstrated its evil result, but we are now told that we have to face an even more horrifying spectacle.
  The White Paper is the most shocking document which has ever been produced. The Government can only point the way to this diabolical and terrifying horror. I was interested to read the remarks of Captain Liddell Hart in the "News Chronicle" yesterday. Here is a military writer who, after forty years' experience, tells us that all military knowledge is useless, and although, for some reason or other, he is prepared to keep the hydrogen bomb, he makes this most astonishing assertion:
  "… it is appalling to depend upon a weapon such as the H-bomb which even as a deterrent carries the continuous risk of civilisation's destruction, and as a defence, if we came to the point of using it, would be no real defence. For it would be general suicide, as both air chiefs and scientists frankly tell us."
  Yet we are to pin our faith on spending thousands of millions of pounds in manufacturing the weapon and developing the most up-to-date methods of delivering a world knock-out bomb which will never be used. It reminds me in some respects of the patter of the late Sir George Robey, to which I called attention in the debate on the Army Estimates last year. The last words of his patter were:
  "To round off the joke, they say we're all broke,
  But for armaments millions they raised.
  If it's all to take part in a war which won't start,
  I'm more than surprised, I'm amazed."
  He might well have said, "But for H-bombs millions they raised." It is in some respects comical, but there is also a great tragedy, and in my judgment the White Paper on Defence turns the House of Commons into a suicide club. We are supposed to be the best club in the world, but it seems to me that we are entering upon a new phase, because its only contribution is to suicidal mania. Why do I say that? The late President Roosevelt stated one of the most fundamental truths on 26th October, 1938, when he said:
  "You cannot organise civilisation around the core of militarism and, at the same time, expect reason to control human destiny."

  2165
  That is true, and if the late President Roosevelt were here today he would have to say, "You cannot organise civilisation around the core of atom and hydrogen bomb bases strewn from one end of the world to the other and expect reason to triumph." The madman has not been ruled out—of course not; but this kind of development produces the kind of people likely to act in a mad way and to cause this terrible destruction.
  The Opposition Amendment seeks to delete words approving the Statement on Defence. Of course, I could readily agree to that, but I am asked to agree to delete those words only to insert what I consider to be the most obnoxious feature in the White Paper—that is, the necessity for the manufacture and the threat of using thermo-nuclear weapons—words which, furthermore, would give the impression that somehow or other my right hon. Friends can more quickly, more efficiently and more economically produce machines of death and destruction. In other words, they can reach the point of immense danger quicker than those on the other side of the House.
  Personally, I cannot see very much difference between the two sides in this, and for my part I find myself unable to support and to vote for an Amendment which, I believe, contains the major evils stated in the White Paper. For that reason, together with some of my hon. Friends, I shall abstain in the Division on the Motion tonight.
  There has been a good deal of talk about the circumstances in which nuclear weapons should be used, and no doubt that point will be made tonight. I must confess that I was somewhat horrified by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey) last night when he said, as reported in column 1938 of the OFFICIAL REPORT:
  "… upon the Continent of Europe we must use nuclear weapons to halt a possible onrush of the Red Army …"
  He also went on to say:
  "If there is an advance by the Red Army we shall have to drop bombs on the Red Army wherever it may be. My point is that it is surely better, if the bombs are to be dropped, to drop them only on the Continent, and not on Britain and on the United States and the U.S.S.R."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 1938–41.]
  One of the reasons which caused me to vote against the Paris Agreements was because I believed that they would create
  2166
  conditions in which the hydrogen bomb would be dropped. I cannot think of anything more disturbing to the people of Germany and of France, for that matter, than that it should go out from either side of this House that, in fact, in our strategy nuclear bombs are to be dropped on to Europe and not here. I should have thought that that was the greatest argument against rearming Germany.
  I regret that this White Paper has been introduced and I also regret the terms of the Amendment. To me, this is a strategic gamble. I realise that we have to take risks for peace and I am prepared to take certain risks for peace, but I prefer to gamble upon the unconquerable power of human brotherhood upon which eternal peace depends, rather than pinning faith on the most horrifying spectacle which can only destroy civilisation.
  8.38 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Sharples: I have sat through practically the whole of the debate, and I have had the opportunity of listening to almost all the speeches that have been made. In some ways that may be an advantage, because one has heard all the points which one wanted to make oneself being made by other people, and one has perhaps been able to hear the arguments against them.
  A good deal of the argument and of the debate has been concerned with the definition of when we should use major weapons like the hydrogen bomb, but to my mind there is no doubt at all about it in the White Paper. It is clearly laid down in paragraph 24, in these words:
  "Thus, until the Soviet Union agrees to participate in a secure system of disarmament, the free nations must base their plans and preparations on the assumption that if a major war were precipitated by an attack upon them they would have to use all the weapons at their disposal in their defence."
  Nothing could be clearer than that.
  That statement is based upon the agreement of the 14 nations of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. I have myself worked for that organisation, and I know how difficult it is to get agreement upon anything in it. To get agreement on a policy statement of this kind is a very great achievement.
  There is no doubt as to where the responsibility lies for deciding whether a

  2167
  major aggression has taken place or whether a mn started. It lies fairly and squarely upon the aggressor himself, no matter who he is, no matter from which side he comes. The aggressor in any war today must realise quite plainly that in taking any action of aggression, no matter where it is, no matter whether it is in Europe or in the Far East, he runs the risk of starting a major war and of bringing upon us the destruction of the world as we know it. It should be made quite clear by the House that that is what we mean, and that anyone who takes the risk of aggression, no matter how small it might be, runs a danger of that kind.
  The Government are to be congratulated upon the major decisions which are contained in the Statement on Defence. There is the decision to make the hydrogen bomb. I do not think that there is anything more that I need say about it. But there is, in addition, the important decision, which is contained in paragraph 29, to concentrate upon the deterrent, and upon the winning of the cold war, and to give the continuing of operations after the initial phase, if war should come, a lower priority. That is an important decision indeed and one which has been somewhat obscured in the course of our debates.
  I am very glad that the Government do not intend to neglect the weapons which we need—and it is conventional weapons that we need in the cold war. I am particularly glad that we are giving an entirely new look to home defence. The announcement made in the speech of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary gave an entirely new complexion to that vast subject, which will need much further consideration. I have no doubt that these decisions will mean a very considerable reorganisation of our conventional forces over a long period.
  There are also a number of decisions which are needed in the future, some in the near future and some which depend upon further scientific progress before the problems can be solved. There is the whole question of the maritime air and of naval-air relationships. That is a vast question upon which depends the future of the Navy and of the air forces themselves. There is the responsibility for
  2168
  the control of Army air supply and air transport. That is still to be considered. There is also the question of the control and development of guided missiles of all kinds, which today are of interest to the Navy and the Royal Air Force, and may well be eventually of interest to the Army. Not one of these big problems has yet really been solved.
  The responsibility for making these decisions should rest with the Minister of Defence. At the moment he is in the position of a co-ordinator of the three Services. He has a very small staff and has a chief of staff, but he is not at the moment represented at the level of the Chiefs of Staff. He has a small Civil Service staff and a secretariat which provides the services for the Chiefs of Staff when they meet, and for the various joint Service committees.
  It is with some diffidence that I would ever suggest the enlargement of a Ministry, but I am not sure whether the time may not have come when we ought to look again at the rôle of the Ministry of Defence to determine whether it might not be recast to a certain extent over a period to enable it to play a more positive rôle in the big decisions which face us.
  There are many other points which I wished to make, but only a short time is left. However, I should like to leave that thought with the House. I also believe that it might be possible for the Ministry of Defence to assume direct responsibility for some of the subjects which are today the responsibility of various Service Departments. There are many subjects which might be considered for this purpose, such as certain aspects of intelligence work. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I believe that in that way we might make a saving in staff in the Service Ministries.
  The Government are to be congratulated upon the Defence White Paper, which is a bold step and a contribution towards our policy of peace through strength.
  8.48 p.m.
  Mr. C. R. Attlee: I have been listening with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharpies). I would only say that I hope his remarks about the Minister of Defence were not correct, because he seemed to be harking back to the idea of a Minister for

  2169
  the Co-ordination of Defence, an appointment which we got rid of before the last war. I hope and trust that the present Minister of Defence is taking a positive role. I was Minister of Defence for a short time, and I can assure the hon. Member that I took a positive rôle, and I believe that my colleagues did the same.
  To turn to the main subject of the debate, yesterday the Prime Minister set out with very great power the position in the world today. As everybody realises, it is a grim picture, no less than the danger of the destruction of civilisation if war should break out. It is just as well that everybody should know that. I think that that is the main point of the Prime Minister's speech, because I take it that all of us in the House are well aware of it.
  I have lived with this sombre topic for some time; indeed, it is present in my mind everyday. We all recognise that there is no defence of this country in the ordinary and accepted sense of the word. That is, naturally, a great shock to the older Members of the House, who remember the time when we used to sit secure behind the guns of the British Fleet. We have to recognise that. The hope of averting the catastrophe of another war which would mean not only catastrophe to ourselves, but to civilisation, is the realisation that there will be no victor in another war.
  We have to get right away from the idea of victory in war. We may continue to read of victories in the past, but there will not be a victor in another war. As there is no defence we are driven to rely on deterrents. That is simply the knowledge on the part of any would-be aggressor, or breaker of the peace, that retaliation would be devastating and certain. It is important to stress the word "certain," because in the past wars have broken out partly through uncertainty.
  I do not believe that war would have broken out in 1914 if the Kaiser had been certain that we should have joined in. I am more doubtful about the war which broke out in 1939, because we were there dealing with a paranoiac. But there is at least the possibility—and I have always held it so—that if the League of Nations had been effective, if there had been an effective organisation which could have acted, and acted in time, in the early stages of aggression, that war might not have
  2170
  taken place. Therefore, I think that we have to be sure that in the knowledge of any would-be aggressor this retaliation is ever present.
  We know that there is no likelihood whatever of aggression on the part of any of the free countries. But it is very difficult to get that into the minds of the people in the countries behind the Iron Curtain, because they are not allowed to know. Obviously, therefore, we have to try to take every opportunity of making contact with these people, because the trouble is that their rulers are not restrained by any force of public opinion. We have to face that fact.
  How little that force of public opinion is one can see by the sudden switch that we had in Russia from terrific denunciation of Fascism to an alliance with Fascism. Such a thing would be quite impossible in a country with a really informed public opinion. Secondly, we must realise that the rulers of Soviet Russia are not moved by sentiment or humanitarianism. They have massacred hundreds of thousands of their own people.
  I shall always remember the late Ernest Bevin saying to me how he always felt a dislike in even meeting the people who ruled Russia, because he thought of the millions of innocent people, the Kulaks, who had been killed. It is no good thinking that Russia's rulers are moved by sentiment; they are moved by self-interest. Somehow or other there has to be a meeting of the leaders of the great Powers to persuade the rulers of Soviet Russia that, in their own interests, peace must be preserved. I should like to see a growing prosperity in Soviet Russia, because the more they have to lose the less they will want to chance their arm with the greater strength of public opinion. Putting it on the lowest level, that is the materialist conception.
  They must also realise, and this is essential, that the free peoples are resolved to preserve their freedom, and they have the means for instant retaliation and that they will use those means in the event of open aggression. That may lead to the acceptance by the rulers of Soviet Russia of co-d them, as the Prime Minister said, to an all-round reduction of armaments.
  After all, that is the aim we must work for, because when one looks at this matter

  2171
  and sees the enormous piling up of what are called conventional armaments, and then, on top of that, of the hydrogen bomb, it looks even more foolish than any of the armaments of the past. The assumption is that if you go to hydrogen bomb warfare there will not be very much left for conventional armaments—an enormous waste in the world.
  The fact of the recognition that this does mean the suicide of civilisation really gives us a gleam of hope. That is why I cannot take such a gloomy view as is taken by some of my hon. Friends, that this is the most terrible White Paper we have ever seen—frightening, if you like, but there is a hope there. It is really more hopeful than White Papers that contemplated wars with conventional weapons. Clearly, some people seem to think that there was not very much trouble about conventional weapons, but they are extraordinarily unpleasant.
  We must accept the fact that our only defence is the power of a counter-attack, and hope that that will never occur, but it seems to me that we must look at our whole defence organisation in the light of this entirely new condition, because I think there is always a tendency to look back at the past at past wars instead of looking to the future. I am not condemning people with military minds. That was said to me by a very distinguished soldier who said that he did not want to see war again because he was always thinking of the last war instead of the next. I want someone to think of no war at all.
  There is in the Government's White Paper the evidence of a divided mind. The acceptance of the main thesis is not really carried out to its logical conclusion, though there is an advance in this White Paper over the last because the conception of a broken-backed war has now gone. I always thought that that was an extraordinary illusion. Apparently we were to fight and destroy each other with nuclear bombs for a few days and then take up again a kind of broken-backed war with conventional weapons. That has gone. If this country were attacked by nuclear weapons it would not be a question of fighting any more for those who were left. It would be a question of mere survival.
  2172
  As I understand, with a hydrogen weapon, as it is now developed, an area the size of Wales could be made unsafe for human beings. I am not saying that everyone would be eliminated, but a comparatively small number of bombs would make this little island practically uninhabitable. I say that we have to take a very realistic view of this. Incidentally, I could not think that the statement of the Home Secretary was very realistic. He talked about getting people out of the towns. Where are we to get them to? Where is a safe area? It depends which way the wind is blowing. It depends on where the bombs are dropped—and no one knows.
  Everyone must realise that the whole problem is different and, to do him justice, the Home Secretary did not profess that he had worked out the whole of this question. I see nowhere where people can go in advance to escape, and I think that the prospects of evacuation after the trouble has once started are very small. We must have our organisation for Civil Defence, I believe, but it has to be something very different from Civil Defence in the last war. I do not think that it has been clearly worked out to what extent it is not merely an ambulance worker trying to rescue people. We need widely dispersed depots of food, and so on, because it is not much use evacuating people to perhaps the only unbombed area in Caithness and Sutherland and having nothing for them to eat when they get there. We have to be much more realisticin this, and I must say that I do not think that the Home Secretary's speech was realistic.
  I do not find, in the White Paper or in the statements of the Service Ministries, a real acceptance of changed conditions. There is a reluctant clinging to the past and I should like on that to ask the Minister of Defence to be rather more specific on the changes which are indicated in the White Paper in the future organisation of our Armed Forces. Although the Prime Minister dealt at great length with the hydrogen bomb, and its effects, he did not tell us very much about the rest of the White Paper. The Minister of Supply was mainly occupied with making a rather forensic case on behalf of supply and the Home Secretary's speech was limited to home defence.

  2173
  We had no explanation about the shape and form of the Armed Forces. I am sure that the Prime Minister recognises now that he was a bit unjust, when, as Leader of the Opposition, he charged us on this side of the House with changing our minds from time to time. He has had to change his mind a lot. In changing conditions one has to change one's mind. For instance, we had a flourish of trumpets about all the extra 14 battalions. They have had to go The right hon. Gentleman had to change his mind about the Suez Canaldefence. I am not blaming him in the least. It was because of changed conditions, and I wonder whether we are changing conditions enough now.
  When we took office in 1945, the hydrogen bomb was not thought of; it was far away on the horizon. Even the atom bomb was only possessed by the United States. The threat at that time was thought to be a mass advance of what are called conventional forces right across Europe and the only hope there was to hold them was with a screen of troops and with big reserves built up behind. The main purpose of National Service was to provide these masses of trained reserves and that has been effective for that purpose. But how do we contemplate creating forces today?
  I cannot conceive that in the event of a modern war breaking out we shall be able to send large masses of people and ammunition across the Channel. I think it is difficult to see how big, massed armies are going to operate at all. If, as I understand, the nuclear weapons are now able to be discharged from artillery, I do not see that we could possibly have large masses of troops, large installations and immense columns of supplies.
  We shall surely need a far greater amount of dispersal of very light forces. We generally hear the old sort of talk about the division and all the rest of it. I should like to know something about the new talk on that, because we have to consider what really are the tasks today.
  We have the Air Force and the nuclear weapons as the supreme deterrents. In this we work with our colleagues in N.A.T.O., who obviously need a very wide dispersal of aerodromes if that force should be ready. Then we come to the rôle of the Army. I can understand the need for a screen on the Continent, but it
  2174
  does not contemplate anything like the masses equal to the 400 divisions of the Soviet Union. As I say, we want a screen of some kind, but it must be the minimum necessary.
  Then there are our forces for the general policing of the Commonwealth and Empire. I do not know how that has been worked out, but I suggest that the time has come when we need something like a combined operation consisting of small, highly-skilled and highly-trained forces of all arms and of all three Services which can be put in where they are wanted.
  I am not quite sure whether in the Statement on the Navy Estimates there is not a kind of special pleading for the existence of the Navy, with a certain doubt in the minds of the writers as to how far it is really needed. I think that we must consider again how far the capital ships which we now have, and which are mainly aircraft carriers, would be useful in other parts of the world. It seems very doubtful whether they could operate in the narrow seas, and it is very doubtful whether we want cruisers.
  It seems, again, small units and much dispersal, Therefore, we should have an unprejudiced review, because, in this country, we really cannot afford to have an immense mass of so-called conventional arms and, on top of it all, the expense of the atomic or hydrogen weapons. It seems to me that there is an urgent need, both in this country and in N.A.T.O., to see what is really necessary instead of the kind of reluctance that we see expressed in the Memorandum on the Army Estimates—how, for example, with great reluctance they had to scrap the second battalions which the right hon. Gentleman had created only a couple of years before. We ought to be glad to get rid of them, because they were of no use.
  It is now said that the anti-aircraft guns are no good, but nobody says, "Let us cut them down." They try to shuffle off into something else. There must be a strong attitude on the part of the Minister of Defence to withhold everything which is not necessary in the way of manpower, because we have to remember the broad strategy of our efforts for peace. The more that we put into arms, the less there is for the constructive work which awaits us all over the world of trying to prevent

  2175
  the spread of Communism in the less developed parts of the world which is the most favourable ground for the sowing of the seeds of Communism.
  We come, finally, to the point of disarmament. We all hope that something may come out of the disarmament conference which is going on now in London, but surely it is time that a very, very big effort was made to try torid the world of this menace of another war. I cannot think that there is anything so important as that. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman feels it as well. Every effort must be made to reach the stage where we can have all-round, thoroughly efficiently policed disarmament. That depends, also, upon the political outlook. It must mean—and I think that it is easy for us—that we renounce any suggestion that we should try to enforce our view of society upon others, but it must also mean that the rulers of Soviet Russia must give up their dream of enforcing Communism throughout the world, and must really accept co-existence.
  One may hope that war may be avoided, but it will be a terrible strain through the years ahead. There is always the danger that a small incident, somewhere, may grow into the cause of another world war, and as long as this immense danger of world destruction exists there is always a chance that a spark may set it alight. This country, with its traditions and its position, is particularly well placed to make the greatest possible efforts for peace.
  I think that we have influence in the world. That influence does not depend solely upon the possession of weapons, although I have found, in practical conversations, that the fact that we do possess these weapons does have an effect upon the rulers of other countries. It is quite an illusion to think that it does not have an effect. I am quite sure that we should not have had the influence we did have upon the events in Korea if we had not had the Commonwealth Division there. We have to make our contribution, but we have, besides, a very great influence in Europe, America, Africa, and Asia, and it is up to us to use it, so that we may look forward at some time to having a White Paper in which we shall not be faced with the grim outlook set before us today.
  Mr. Bevan:There is a matter upon which hon. Members on this side of the House would like to have some clarification. The Amendment which has been moved by the Opposition speaks about the deterrent effect upon aggression of the threat of using thermo-nuclear weapons. Paragraph 19 of the White Paper says that we must rely upon this, and that
  "The knowledge that aggression will be met by overwhelming nuclear retaliation is the surest guarantee that it will not take place."
  It does not say "nuclear aggression," but merely "aggression" of any sort.
  In the meantime, General Grunter has said that he has no choice but to use atomic weapons, whether or not the enemy does so. What we want to know is whether the use of the words to which I have referred in our Amendment associates us with the statement that we should use thermo-nuclear weapons in circumstances of hostilities, although they were not used against us.
  Mr. Attlee: My right hon. Friend is asking me that question. I am using this in the most general terms. I am not referring to anything in the White Paper, but to the general thesis, with which I think my right hon. Friend agrees, that deterrents, by the possession of thermo-nuclear weapons, are the best way of preventing another war.
  9.16 p.m.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Macmillan):This has been a notable debate, distinguished by many powerful speeches, including a maiden speech of quite exceptional quality. It has been rather a queer debate, not a bit like an ordinary censure debate; indeed, at times it has not been clear who was censuring whom. The debate has ranged, as all defence debates do, from vast problems of foreign policy, down to minute details of engineering and armaments.
  Of course, the Opposition has accused the Government of various sins of omission and commission. There is nothing very novel about that. It is what one might call conventional warfare. In point of fact, in the speech which wound up this motion of censure for the Opposition there was hardly a word with which anybody on this side of the House could be found to disagree. Since I suppose one

  2177
  should refer to the motion, perhaps I may take the various complaints.
  The first is that we have not been able to indicate what future defence expenditure may be called for. That is not a very wounding censure. In a life where one has to give and take a. lot of hard knocks that does not hurt me unduly. It is, after all, the normal custom of Defence Estimates to cover the financial year, 1955–56 in this case. It is true that an attempt has been made sometimes to peer further into the future. For example, when the great rearmament programme was launched by the previous Government, something of the kind was done. First the figure was put at £3,600 million. Then it became £4,700 million. Then, as it worked out, the plan had to be slowed down. We had to substitute what is called "the long haul." Although I might indicate the right road, I am afraid I could not predict in this White Paper with any accuracy how long or how costly the journey would prove to be.
  The second charge relates to the deficiencies in the weapons which are available to the Forces. Anyone who listened to the masterly not to say devastating speech of my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Supply—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite cannot expect me to waste any more time peering into the future.
  I have always thought that the Opposition Front Bench were a little nervous about peering too far into this story. Their back benchers, sometimes elevated to the Front Bench, might start what might seem quite a promising explosion. Who could tell the precise direction, or what would be the secondary effects, or where the fall-out would go? The sad thing is that, in trying to injure the Government the critics have done scant justice to themselves, and by concentrating popular attention on ventures initiated by them which are in trouble, they are obscuring the credit which is due to their successes.
  Apart from that, the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) allowed himself one or two remarkable obiter dicta. The first was that we did not need a strategic reserve. The second was that the Navy was as dead as Nelson. He had better tell that to the Marines, or perhaps even to the Russians, because they are building one of the largest navies in the world.
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  The third charge is indeed a strange one. The White Paper, it is said, fails to make proposals for the reorganisation of Her Majesty's Forces or of Civil Defence. I should have thought that that was exactly what it did do. Whether our proposals are right or wrong is quite another question, but they have certainly been put forward in this White Paper with remarkable clarity; and I think, in view of the transitional period to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, that this has been accepted both at home and abroad as a State paper of considerable importance. Naturally, I am indebted for most of the preliminary work to my predecessor, Field Marshal Lord Alexander. Whatever may be said of the rest of us, at any rate nobody will venture to call him an armchair strategist.
  Of course, all our critics do not agree with us, but the trouble is that they do not agree with each other. At any rate, during my first few months as Minister of Defence I have not suffered from lack of advice. A great deal has been said and written in speeches and pamphlets during the last few weeks, as well as said in this debate. I have had all these carefully collated. The trouble is that they nearly all cancel each other out.
  Some say that the aircraft carrier is so vulnerable a weapon that it is useless. Others of equal authority say there is no substitute for the carrier either as part of the striking fleet or as a means of providing cover for convoys. Some say the Navy must be of small ships. Others demand the immediate construction of a large number of big ships. Some say that troop carrying helicopters will have a profound effect upon the whole structure of warfare, but others of great authority say they will be such easy targets as to be sitting ducks. So it goes on, and the truth is that, perhaps, the variety of these different views may lead many of us to approach this problem with discretion and prudence, as well as with resolution.
  There is, however, one dangerous fallacy which, I think, this debate has done much to expose, and that is the fallacy of partial disarmament. There is no halfway house in disarmament. Of that I am absolutely sure. Indeed, a half-way house would leave us in mortal danger. It is very easy to start the cry, "Ban the bomb." It is no doubt proposed for the most humane reasons by the most humane

  2179
  people, but it is really an illusory conception.
  Let us see what is involved. Is it suggested that we should, by ruling out nuclear warfare, be returning to some respectable and acceptable system for carrying on the quarrels of nations? Would war, as it were, cease to be a blackguardly affair and become a gentlemanly affair again? I was glad that the Leader of the Opposition rather helped me in the view that we look too kindly on the past. Some of us have been through two wars. Are we to say that, if we now rule out gas and nuclear warfare and all the rest, it would be tolerable to have those over again? I do not see it.
  The First World War brought a degree of suffering and misery to Europe that it had not known for a century. Nearly two million Frenchmen lost their lives, and from that loss France has even now scarcely recovered. In our own country the flower of the youth of a whole generation was mown down by the scythe of death. Have we forgotten the loss of that Regular Army, the Old Contemptibles, or the 60,000 casualties of the greatest volunteer army in the world on the first day of the Battle of the Somme, or the 360,000 casualties in the long nightmare of Paschendaele? The loss of a whole generation is something that has struck so deep into the hearts of men of my age that, remembering the fallen, we have sometimes scarcely felt the right ourselves to be alive.
  And then came the Second World War, with its terrible losses by land and sea and air, and the first great mass attacks upon the civil populations of the countries of Europe. Is this so tolerable an experience that it can be looked at even in retrospect without horror? If "Ban the bomb" means going on with war without nuclear weapons, I am against it, and I believe that every Member of this House is, too. So let us hear no more of that.
  Apart from that argument, let us suppose there could be such a ban. If such an agreement were scrupulously observed on both sides, how could the conventional forces that we could recruit and maintain bear any comparison with the huge manpower of the vast Communist countries? Such a result would be fatal to the freedom of Europe and the whole world.
  2180
  Is it not obvious that if such a degree of international agreement between the two great rival forces could be reached as to give confidence in the scrupulous observance of any plan for ruling out nuclear warfare, that itself would involve a complete system of inspection and control of almost every detail of industrial production and scientific research?
  If we could reach agreement on that, surely we should reach such a degree of understanding that it ought not to be difficult to reach agreement on the rest? If we can go some of the way, we ought to be able to go the whole way. What I say we cannot afford to do is to go half way and leave ourselves exposed.
  We are told that the answer lies in the field of foreign affairs. I think it was truly said by one hon. Member who spoke today that a defence debate was more a matter for the Foreign Secretary than the Minister of Defence, and that one of the difficulties in these debates and in framing these White Papers was that the field is so big. When we are asked what we have done, I say that it is a good record.
  Two wars have been ended, if not in peace at least in truce, in Korea and Indo-China. Three baffling and irritating problems have been solved to general satisfaction in Abadan, Suez, and—one of the most important of all—Trieste, by diplomatic means. When we talk of having high-level talks, it is worth recalling that the Foreign Secretary has had 2½ months of discussion with Mr. Molotov, first at Berlin and then at Geneva. More has been done to create the proper conditions for disarmament than ever before, and I claim that when free Europe is consolidated and is no longer vulnerable to disruptive propaganda, the next stage can begin.
  Meanwhile, our representatives are working hard, and mean to go on working hard, at the talks now going on in London, in the hope of framing at least the first picture and preparing at least the groundwork for a system of disarmament to which—and it is an important point—a rearmed Germany will also have to conform. Although I was not in the House to hear the speech of the Leader of the Liberal Party, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), which was reported to me, I was very glad to know that he encouraged us

  2181
  to go forth on that task, and that we mean to do.
  On the whole question of disarmament, our purpose is simple and our record is clear. Genuine disarmament must be based on two simple but vital principles. It must be comprehensive and it must provide a proper system of control. It must be comprehensive, by which I mean that it must include all weapons, new and old, conventional and unconventional. The control must provide effective international, or if we like supranational, authority invested with real power. Hon. Members may say that this is elevating the United Nations, or whatever may be the authority, into something like world government. Be it so, it is none the worse for that. In the long run this is the only way out for mankind.
  Of course, it will take time and patience to reach our goal. We have had disappointments, we have had setbacks, but we shall persevere. For disarmament is two things—and when we achieve it, it will be this double triumph: it will be both the symbol of peace and the means of preserving it.
  But meanwhile we have to organise our forces for their two-fold task, directed, as they must be, to a dual purpose. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said that we sometimes have divided minds, but that is the great problem of the Defence Minister. There are two quite separate kinds of purposes for which we have to organise our forces—to prevent the global war ever coming about and to carry on the ordinary commitments of the Empire and the Commonwealth and of the cold war which, as the Prime Minister said yesterday, we hate but have to endure.
  We have to prevent the hot war and to win the cold war. What are we to do? I was glad that the right hon. Gentleman agreed with our main theme. Until the passions of mankind can be cooled by reason or by love, they must be chained by fear, and there is no other way.
  How is the deterrent to be made effective? What are its components? First, and obviously the most compelling, is the power to deliver against any aggressor nation an immediate and overwhelming counter-attack. Of course, it may be argued that because the main deterrent
  2182
  force is American, there need be and there ought to be no British contribution. I think that is a very dangerous doctrine.
  It is doubly dangerous on two levels of thought. Politically, it surrenders our power to influence American policy and then, strategically and tactically, it equally deprives us of any influence over the selection of targets and use of our vital striking forces. The one, therefore, weakens our prestige and our influence in the world and the other might imperil our safety.
  For this deterrent counter-attack not merely defends Europe from aggression, but the power of interdiction upon invading columns by nuclear weapons gives a new aspect altogether to strategy, both in the Middle East and in the Far East. It affords a breathing space, an interval, a short but perhaps vital opportunity for the assembly, during the battle for air supremacy, of larger defensive forces than can normally be stationed permanently in those areas.
  In a word, it gives time—and from the very nature of things, that is what the democracies always need. The aggressor chooses his own moment. He punches when he will. The democracies can never be mobilised right up to the hilt. They sometimes need periods, especially in those distant theatres, to develop their full strength. The tyrant's ringer is always on the trigger.
  If immediate counter-attack is the first element of the deterrent, there is a second of almost equal importance. These new and terrible devices do not mean that conventional weapons are altogether outmoded. I found it a little difficult to follow the argument of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) on this point—and I hope he will forgive me if I have misunderstood him. At one moment he wanted us to cast away what he called the paraphernalia of conventional weapons and then, at another moment, he wished us to rely exclusively upon them if the enemy refrained from nuclear attack. I say that the aggressor must not imagine that his armies will be allowed to invade our territory or that of our allies unopposed.
  It is equally vital to keep an aggressive force as far to the East as possible—vital for Europe and for her own safety. For this we need a firm shield of troops and

  2183
  tactical aircraft. Without it, the Communists would be tempted to overrun Europe with their vast armies. Once this was done, of course, they would hope that the West would not dare to use their nuclear weapons for the liberation of Europe.
  We all remember with what frightful searchings of heart we had to drop our own far less destructive bombs upon the territory of our friends in the last war. Imagine, then, the disadvantage to which we should be put if large parts of Western Europe were occupied by enemy forces and we were called to clear them out, risking the subjecting of our friends to the effects of thermo-nuclear attack. We should face the terrible dilemma either of accepting that this hostage, prematurely seized by the enemy, because we had not conventional arms to protect it, would be used to drive us to a shameful peace; or, alternatively, of subjecting Europe to a liberation which would involve its own destruction. That is what we mean by forward strategy.
  Those are the reasons which have led the Government, with the support, I am happy to feel, of the greater part of the Opposition to press on earnestly with the London and Paris Agreements and try to achieve the consolidation of the Western European Union. I know that the majority of us—I will not say all of us by any means, because I know there are strong feelings—
  Mr. S. Silverman: Nobody on this side of the House voted for it.
  Mr. Macmillan:—despite bitter memories, are prepared to welcome a German contribution to this difficult task and those are the essential preliminaries both to defence and to disarmament.
  I want to turn to a point of interpretation which was raised yesterday by the right hon. Member for Easington, the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey), my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay), and, I think, repeated today by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). I was asked about the interpretation of certain words in the White Paper. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale tried to get the Leader of the Opposition to rise to his bait, but he was too wise a fish. Perhaps I am not so cautious.
  2184
  I think the words in the White Paper are very clear. In paragraph 22, there are these words:
  "If we do not use the full weight of our nuclear power, Europe can hardly be protected from invasion and occupation—with all that this implies both for Europe and the United Kingdom."
  Paragraph 23 goes on to explain that the military planning of N.A.T.O. must assume the use, in a major war—and I underline the words "major war"—of nuclear weapons.
  Paragraph 24 repeats the same sentiment in another way, and says this:
  "Thus, until the Soviet Union agrees to participate in a secure system of disarmament, the free nations must base their plans and preparations on the assumption that if a major war were precipitated by an attack upon them they would have to use all the weapons at their disposal in their defence."
  That seems to me very clear.
  I do not think anything would be gained by attempting a more precise definition. Members may well ask what will constitute a major war. Would some incident in one place or some minor attack in another count as a major war? That is a question very easy to pose, but very dangerous to answer. It is rather like the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes. If I say, "No, we will never use them," it is an encouragement, almost an enticement to the Soviet to attack, for example, some Scandinavian country. It would be cold comfort to those countries if I were to say, "No."
  It is important, of course, that the aggressor should know what he may not do, but I think that it is equally important that he should not be told too invitingly what he may do. Surely, it depends upon what kinds of attack we are contemplating. Some small incident could be dealt with by conventional weapons, or even by diplomatic means. One would hope that it would be stopped and would never be allowed to develop. A great massive attack upon a wide front cannot be launched without some preparation which can be detected. A clash on such a scale would amount to total war.
  Finally, let me remind the House that these decisions do not lie with generals or field marshals, however distinguished. They lie with the Governments of the free countries. We are not -talking about a

  2185
  sudden bolt from the blue, a nuclear attack, but a much more normal incident with much more preparation, where intelligence shows the probable movement of troops. That was the problem that was posed to me, and I say that this seems to dispose of the argument that we should abandon conventional weapons altogether. Indeed, they may prove the only means to prevent an incident from developing into a real war.
  The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale argues that we should not meet conventional aggression with nuclear weapons. Presumably he intends us to meet that sort of attack with something. With what? Surely with conventional weapons. Then why all the talk about the useless Army and the millions of pounds wasted? This is certainly the Government's decision and I think the decision of the majority of Members in this House.
  Mr. Driberg: The distinction which the right hon. Gentleman has been drawing, between a major war and a minor attack or local incident, is surely somewhat obscured by what the Prime Minister said yesterday, that in the next few years
  "… it is most unlikely that the Russians would deliberately embark on major war or attempt a surprise attack,"—
  which presumably is less than a war and is one of those minor incidents—
  "either of which would bring down upon them at once a crushing weight of nuclear retaliation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 1905.]
  Mr. Macmillan: I think that what the Prime Minister said is exactly what I said.
  A bolt from the blue would be answered, of course, by sudden counterattack, but developing movements such as those to which we have been accustomed in former wars give time for diplomatic and other moves to develop before what we have in mind. I think that I have made that clear, and that most of the House accepts it.
  I turn now to the defence of our island base. The anti-aircraft gun, except in a limited and rather specialised field, can no longer contribute against the kind of attack which we would have to face in global war. The Leader of the Opposition asked us to get rid of what was no good or useless, and we have tried, in this
  2186
  decision to abolish Anti-Aircraft Command, to follow his advice. Naturally, we have done it with a certain sentimental reluctance, because the traditions of these regiments, both Regular and Territorial are indeed very fine traditions. But we are confident that the officers and men of both these categories will now carry forward into new opportunities of service the splendid traditions which they had in the past. I think that they would be the first to resent being asked to continue to give their services to what was an unrewarding and even purposeless effort.
  The true defence, of course, is counterattack, and I speak now of global war. Apart from that, our defence rests upon the fighter squadrons which we have discussed already today. I do not want to add to what has been said except to venture to say, not in any hostile spirit, that I think it would be unfortunate if, in our natural desire to attack each other in the course of our normal political disputes we should let it be thought, either at home or abroad that the Royal Air Force is not equipped in such a way as to give a good account of itself against any attack that can be brought against it at the present time or in the near future. I believe that the aircraft now under development will take care of the years beyond.
  I now come to the second line of defence—if the bomber gets through. This is generally termed Civil Defence. I have tried to have it renamed "Home Defence," because I do not think there is very much distinction now in that kind of defence between the military and the civilian. We are all in it, and everyone must play their part. Our proposals have been set out in the White Paper and they have been fully explained to the House by the Home Secretary. The Leader of the Opposition says that they are not complete. Of course they are not complete, but they mark a very considerable step forward in respects which I will summarise as follows.
  What are we dependent on? The first echelon is the Civil Defence Service. It is the front line. The people in it are necessarily static. They are the people on the spot; they are the men who know the job. Behind them is the third echelon, which now consists of all Her Majesty's Forces, trained Forces, in the country at the time, with this difference. Since we intend to introduce training in the whole

  2187
  of this work into the normal routine of all the Forces, they will be trained. So we shall have behind them the formed forces, trained at any rate in good knowledge of the kind of work in which they will have to help.
  Then as the link between the two—the Civil Defence Service and the Armed Forces at home under the officer commanding the Home Forces—we have the Mobile Defence Corps. At least, I claim, this is a clear and coherent scheme. It is a plan upon which we can build and develop as our knowledge grows.
  There will be those who will say that all this is useless and that there is no defence at all against the thermo-nuclear attack. It may not be a complete defence, but it is a mitigation. Surely, to say that there is no mitigation, that there is nothing we ought to do except lie down, is to make an assumption that we have no right to make. I do not believe that any Government of any party could make such an assumpton. It would be simply taking a defeatist or disinterested attitude.
  In a curious way, just as the first part of the deterrent is counter-attack, the second part is the maintenance, through N.A.T.O., of strong forces in Europe sufficient to hold the massive enemy at a distance while the vital battle for the air, if it has to be fought, is fought. So I think that to make these preparations for our home defence, and to make them proudly and boldly, to let the aggressor know what is the mood of a people who have been often bent but never yet broken, is an essential part of the deterrent itself.
  So much for the hot war, as it is called, and the means to avert it. Yet, as has been remarked by several hon. Members on both sides of the House, the more terrible the deterrent becomes and the more rapidly the rival forces reach a kind of stalemate of equality, the more the Communist Powers may be encouraged to attempt by infiltration and subversion what cannot be obtained by open warfare.
  In other words, the same forces which may make hot war or world war less likely will, by a strange paradox, serve to increase the tempo and the fever of the cold war. The cold war has, of course, to be waged by diverse means and military strength is only one part of it and not perhaps the most important.
  2188
  Economic development, political stability, the rise in the standard of living—all those are of equal, or perhaps greater significance.
  Nevertheless the quiet steady sense of support and security which is provided by a well-planned distribution of the armed resources of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth is an essential element in fighting the cold war. It used to be said that the British private soldier was England's best ambassador, and I think that that is still true.
  Mr. William Ross: The Highland Brigade.
  Mr. Macmillan: The airman runs him hard, and we all know that the presence of naval forces is often sufficient to provide a steadying influence in a delicate or uncertain situation. For these dual functions, preparations for and prevention of the hot war and the guarding of freedom in the cold war, all three fighting Services have to be always ready.
  In my view, their roles are not competitive, but complementary. We hear a lot in debates and discussions about differences of opinion. Those there must be. Some hon. Members seem to think—I find it as I go about the world, or read the newspapers—that the Services are engaged not so much in preparing to oppose the enemy, but in bitter conflict among themselves. I am given pictures of infuriated admirals attacking angry generals, or trying to induce them to combine with them against the claims of grasping air marshals. But in the interests of accuracy I am afraid that I must tell the House that that romantic picture is not a true one. I am afraid that this warfare, or this kind of warfare, is mainly conducted by retired officers.
  Sometimes there may be, as there ought to be, differences of opinion, but I am not, as many people suppose, surrounded and harried by the jealous demands of obsolescent Blimps. On the contrary, the Government—this Government and their predecessors—command the co-operative services of devoted and distinguished officers working loyally as a team, together.
  I must now sum up. As regards the criticisms of the execution of our policy which are contained in this motion of censure, I appeal with confidence to the

  2189
  House and to the nation. They may have served some tactical purpose, or were no doubt intended to serve some tactical purpose, in gathering the forces of the Opposition into some semblance of order, but even that manoeuvre does not seem to have been very successful.
  As regards policy itself, I am equally confident. The object of defence is security. We must avoid a false security. There is an old fable of the wolf who offered to make peace with the sheep, provided that they would send away their dogs. Let us beware of the fate of the sheep. Equally we must recognise that no negotiations for disarmament can be effective unless they are sincere. As with any other satisfactory bargain in life, both sides ought to be pleased with it. If one side tries to overreach the other, it will be in the position of the man who sold a blind horse and got a bad note in payment. Nor would it benefit us as a nation if we allowed these tremendous issues to become the sport of party warfare, either in this House or upon the hustings.
  What we have to do is very difficult. It needs high intellectual qualities, perhaps, above all, high moral qualities. We shall have—all of us, whichever party is to do the job—disappointments. We shall need great perseverance. Yet though the journey is hard the prize is great. We sometimes flatter ourselves that we may be entering on a new Elizabethan age. That was an age, above all, of dangerous living and of risks.
  "The wings of man's life"—
  wrote Drake to the Queen—
  "are plumed with the feathers of death."
  We must seek a state, I will not say of friendship yet, but of tolerance at least, between the free world and the Communist world. Such tolerance, imposed by fear, may grow, bit by bit, into peace. If we can win peace for our children and our grandchildren, which we have not had ourselves, then I think all the risks, all the labours and the sacrifices of our people will be justified.
  It may, of course, be that we shall not attain it in our pilgrimage. Let us then pray that they may reach it, and then indeed, in Bunyan's noble words, they will come into
  "the country beyond the Valley of the Shadow of Death, and also out of the reach of Giant Despair; neither will they from this place so much as see Doubting Castle."
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. P. G. T. Buchan-Hepburn)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. P. G. T. Buchan-Hepburn) rose in his place, and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Mr. Harold Davies (Leek): On a point of order.
  Mr. Speaker: I have been ordered by the House to put the Question. There can be no point of order.
  Question put accordingly, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of 'the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 303, Noes 196.

  Division No. 38.]

  AYES

  [9.58 p.m.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Black, C. W.

  Cooper, Sqd. Ldr. Albert

  Allan, B. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Bossom, Sir A. C.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt, Hon. J. A.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Braine, B. R.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Assheton, Rt. Hn. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Brooman-White, R, C.

  Davies, Rt.Hn.Clement (Montgomery)

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  De la Bére, Sir Rupert

  Banks, Col. C.

  Billiard, D. G.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Barber, Anthony

  BuIIus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Barlow, Sir John

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Beach, Maj Hicks

  Butcher. Sir Herbert

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Beamish, Maj. Tufton

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Donner, Sir P. W.

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Campbell, Sir David

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Drayson, G. B.

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Channon, H.

  Drewe, Sir C.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Bennett, Sir William (Woodside)

  Clarke, Col. Sir Ralph (E. Grinstead)

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth,W.)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Cole, Norman

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Fell, A.

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lindsay, Martin

  Robertson, Sir David

  Fisher, Nigel

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Lloyd, Major. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Fort, R.

  Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Foster, John

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Russell, R. S.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollock)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Savory, prof. Sir Douglas

  Gailbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Scott, Sir Donald

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Glover, D.

  McCallum, Major D.

  Sharples, Maj. R. C.

  Godber, J. B.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbr'gh, W.)

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Cough, C. F. H.

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Gower, H. R.

  Mackle, J. H. (Galloway)

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Maclay, Rt, Hon. John

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Grimond, J.

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Speir, R. M.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir p. (K'ns'gt'n, s.)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Macmillan,Rt.Hn.Harold(Bromley)

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Hare, Hon. J. H.

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Steward, William (Woolwich, W.)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Stoddart-Soott, Col. M.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Hay, John

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Storey, S.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Marples, A. E.

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Heath, Edward

  Maude, Angus

  Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Maudling, R.

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Teeling, W.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Heref'd)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Hollis, M. C.

  Neave, Airey

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Holt, A. F.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Thompson, Lt-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

  Hope, Lord John

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. P. (M'nm'th)

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Thornton-Kemsley, Mr. C. N.

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Nutting, Rt. Hon. Anthony

  Turton, R. H.

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Odey, G. W.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Vosper, D. F.

  Hughes, Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wade, D. W.

  Hulbert, Wing. Cmdr. N. J.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Hurd, A. R.

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'le'bne)

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh.W.)

  Osborne, C.

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Hutchison, James (Sootstoun)

  Page, R. G.

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. 0.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H.

  Perkins, Sir Robert

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Jenkins Robert (Dulwich)

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Webbe, Sir H. (L'nd'n & Westm'r)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Wellwood, W.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Williams, Rt. Hn. Charles (Torquay)

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Kaberry, D.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Wills, G.

  Kerr, H. W.

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Woollam, John Viotor

  Lambton, Viscount

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Redmayne, M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Mr. Buchan Hepburn and

  Mr. Studholme.

  2192

  2193

  NOES

  Adams, Richard

  Hargreaves, A.

  Pannell, Charles

  Albu, A. H.

  Hayman, F, H,

  Parker, J.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  Peart, T. F.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Porter, G.

  AttIee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Probert, A. R.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Hobson, C. R.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Balfour, A.

  Holman, P.

  Pryde, D. J.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Holmes, Horace

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Bartley, P.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Bellenger,Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Benson, G.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Blackburn, F.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Ross, William

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Shackleton, E, A. A.

  Boardman, H.

  Irving, W. J, (Wood Green)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Janner, B.

  Short, E. W.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Burke, W. A.

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Champion, A. J.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Steele, T.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Keenan, W.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Coldrick, W.

  Kenyon, C.

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Collick, p. H.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Collins, V. J.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Cove, W. G.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Stross, Dr. Barnett

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Swingler, S. T.

  Dalnes, P.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Logan, D. G.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  McInnes, J.

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Deer, G.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Thornton, E.

  Delargy, H. J.

  McLeavy, F.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Dodds, N. N.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon, H.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Donnelly, D. L.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Viant, S. P.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Bromwich)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H, A.

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Mayhew, C. p.

  West, D. G.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Messer, Sir F.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Fienburgh, W.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Finch, H. J.

  Moody, A. S.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  Wigg, George

  Follick, M.

  Morley, R.

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Freeman, John (Watford)

  Morrison, Rt.Hn.Herbert (Lewism,S.)

  Willey, Frederick

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Moyle, A.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Gooch, E. C.

  Murray, J. D.

  Willis, E. G.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Nally, W.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Hale, Leslie

  O'Brien, T.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Oswald, T.

  Hannan, W.

  Paget, R. T.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hardy, E. A.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Mr. Bowden and Mr. Pearson

  Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn: I claim that the main Question be now put.
  Main Question put accordingly:—
  The House divided: Ayes 303 Noes 253.

  Division No. 39.]

  AYES

  [10.10 p.m

  Aitken, W. T.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Banks, Col. C.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Assheton, Rt. Hn. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Barber, Anthony

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Beach, Maj. Hicks

  Grimond, J.

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Beamish, Mai. Tufton

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Hall, John (Wyoombe)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Hare, Hon. J. H.

  Marples, A. E.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Bennett, Sir William (Woodside)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Maude, Angus

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Maudling, R.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Black, C. W.

  Hay, John

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Bossom, Sir A. C.

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Heath, Edward

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Braine, B. R.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Neave, Airey

  Braithwaite Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Bullard, D. G.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Nutting, Rt. Hon. Anthony

  Bullus, Wing-Commander E. E.

  Holt, A. F.

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Hope, Lord John

  Odey, G. W.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Campbell, Sir David

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

  Channon, H.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Osborne, C.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Page, R. G.

  Clarke, Col. Sir Ralph (E. Grinstead)

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Perkins, Sir Robert

  Cole, Norman

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Conant, Maj, Sir Roger

  Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Hurd, A. R.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Craddook, Beresford (Spelthorne).

  Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Crouch, R. F.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Redmayne, M,

  De la Bere, Sir Rupert

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Kaberry, D.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Kerr, H. W.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. Mc A.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Donner, Sir P. W.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Robertson, Sir David

  Drayson, G. B.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Drewe, Sir C.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Duthie, W. S.

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

  Lindsay, Martin

  Russell, R. S.

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Erroll, F. J.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Fell, A.

  Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.

  Scott, Sir Donald

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Longden, Gilbert

  Sharpies, Maj.R C.

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbr'gh, W.)

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Fort, R.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Foster, John

  McAdden, S. J.

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  McCallum, Major D.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Speir, R. M.

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Macdonald, Sir peter

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Spent, Rt. Hn. Sir p. (K'ns'gt'n, S.)

  Gammans, L. D.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Glover, D.

  Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Godber, J. B.

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Steward, William (Woolwich, W.)

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Gough, C. F. H.

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Gower, H. R.

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Storey, S.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Gresham CooKe, R.

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  2196

  2197

  Summers, C. S. (Aylesbury)

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Webbs, Sir H. (L'nd'n & Westm'r)

  Sunnier, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Turton, R. H.

  Wellwood, W.

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Williams, Rt. Hn. Charles (Torquay)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Vosper, D. F.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Teeling, W.

  Wade, D. W.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Heref'd)

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Wills, G.

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'le'bne)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. P. (M'nm'th)

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Mr. Studholme.

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Watklnson, H. A.

  NOES

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Finch, H. J.

  McKay, John (Walisend)

  Adams, Richard

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  McLeavy, F.

  Albu, A. H.

  Foot, M. M.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Forman, J. C.

  MacPherson, Maloolm (Stirling)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Freeman, John (Watford)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Awfoery, S. S.

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Gibson, C. W.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Baird, J.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Balfour, A.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Bartley, P.

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Bence, C. R.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Benson, G.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Monslow, W.

  Beswiok, F.

  Hale, Leslie

  Moody, A. S.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  Blackburn, F.

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Morley, R.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Boardman, H.

  Hannan, W.

  Morrison,Rt.Hn.Herbert(Lewi'm,S.)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Moyle, A.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Murray, J. D.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Nally, W.

  Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  O'Brien, T.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Burke, W. A.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Holman, P.

  Orbach, M.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Holmes, Horace

  Oswald, T.

  Carmichael, J.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Owen, W. J.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Paget, R. T.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Chetwynd, G, R.

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Clunie, J.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Coldrick, W.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pannell, Charles

  Collick, P. H.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Collins, V. J.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Parker, J.

  Cove, W. G.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Craddook, George (Bradford, S.)

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Peart, T. F.

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Crossman, R. H. s.

  Janner, B.

  Porter, G.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Daines, P.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Probert, A. R.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena

  Proctor, W. T.

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Jenkins, Roy (Steohford)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech

  Rankin, John

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Reeves, J.

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Deer, G.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Delargy, H. it.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Keenan, W.

  Rhodes, H.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Kenyon, C.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  Lawson, G. M.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Edelman, M.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brlghoute)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Ross, William

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caarphllly)

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwlck)

  Royle, C.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Lewis, Arthur

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Logan, D. G.

  Short, E. w.

  Fernyhough, E.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Shurmor, P. L. E.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Mclnnes, J.

  Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

  2198

  2199

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Wigg, George

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Willey, F. T.

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Thornton, E.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Snow, J. W.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T.(Don Valley)

  Sorensen, H. W.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Willis, E. G.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Usborne, H. C.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Winter-bottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

  Steele, T.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightslde)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Weitzman, D.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Yates, V. F.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  West, D. G.

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Stross, Dr. Barnett

  Wheeldon, W. E,

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Swingler, S. T.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Mr. Bowden and Mr. Pearson

  Sylvester, G.O.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Resolved,
  That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1955, Command Paper No. 9391.

PRIMARY SCHOOL, HYDE
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Kaberry.]
10.22 p.m.
Mr. F. Blackburn: It is a farcry from the hydrogen bomb to the subject which I wish to discuss tonight. I wish to raise the case of the Oakfield County Primary School, Hyde—a name without a school. I make no apology for detaining the House on this purely constituency matter because my constituents in Hyde are very bitter about the way they have been treated. I do not suppose that there is any school in the country which has been in and out of the building programme with such frequency as this particular school.
I hope that what I have to say tonight will persuade the Minister to reconsider his last decison. Naturally, I am not expecting a promise for a new school to be given in an Adjournment debate, though, of course, I should be delighted if that happened. However, I shall be satisfied with a pledge of reconsideration.
The Minister is acquainted with the history of this case, but I should like to recall to his mind one or two of the main features. The school was first included in the 1950 reserve building programme but was later placed in the 1950 actual building programme. The site for the school was acquired from Hyde Corporation and approved by the Ministry of Education as long ago as January, 1950, though the actual purchase of the site was not completed until 30th December, 1950. Statutory notice of the building of
2200
the school was given in February, 1950, and finally approved by the Ministry on 16th May, 1950.
In January, 1951, estimates for the building of the school in "Intercon" construction were approved, but then a further delay occurred because the Cheshire County Council asked the Ministry for an extension of the time limit to enable it to obtain tenders for traditional brick construction. However, even with that delay, the regional building committee authorised a starting date for December, 1951, and the county architect hoped that work would begin in January, 1952. However, in October, 1951, a Conservative Government were elected, and a moratorium was placed on the building of all new schools which had not actually been begun.
We realise, of course, that in this respect we received exactly the same treatment as others, but the fact remains that if there had not been a change of Government the Oakfield County Primary School would by now have been completed. There may be some political advantage for me in that fact, and when one has a very small majority one usually welcomes such a situation, but I am far more concerned about the provision of this very necessary school than with any political advantage.
Apart from various letters between myself and the Ministry of Education, the story then moves on to 30th July, 1953, when, in answer to a Question, the former Minister of Education in formed me that she had included the new school at Newton Hyde in the reserve programme for 1954–55. That decision was not because I had been pressing the claims for this school, nor was it because the Hyde Town Council had made representations through the town clerk. It

2201
must have been made on the advice of the officials of the Ministry, who must have been convinced of the need for the school.
One very important fact emerges from the action of the former Minister. It is that the proposed school came within the terms of Circular 245, and, therefore, it should not now be possible to quote that circular against its construction. Some correspondence passed between the Minister and myself during the course of the year, and on 29th July, 1954, I asked a Question in the House as to what extent schools included in the reserve list for one year were included in the actual building programme for the following year.
The Minister replied, and here I quote her exact words:
"… authorities can assume that it will be included in the following year's main programme unless there has been a marked change in circumstances"—
and that has not happened; if anything, the circumstances have deteriorated, for a start has been made with a further 192 houses in that area—
"or they satisfy me that alternative arrangements can be made to accommodate the children."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th July. 1954; Vol. 531, c. 671.]
I shall refer to that part of the Minister's reply later.
I then asked whether that answer meant that the proposed new school at Newton Hyde would be included in the building programme for 1955–56, and the Minister said that she would have to refresh her memory. I immediately wrote a letter to the right hon. Lady, who informed me, in reply, that the local education authority had satisfied her that the children could be accommodated without the provision of a new school at this stage.
I understand that part of the Minister's case is that the Cheshire Education Committee has not included the Oakfield Primary School in a proposed building programme since 1951–52, and, in a letter which I have here the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education says:
"When they submitted their proposals for the 1955–56 programme, the Cheshire authority were able to show that, although there would probably be a deficit of 250 or more places at Newton Church of England School, Hyde, by 1958, there would be an overall surplus of primary school places in the area as a whole."
2202
I have no evidence about the years 1952–53 or 1953–54, but, in answer to what the hon. Gentleman said in that letter, I would point out that, on 28th September, 1954, the Cheshire County Education Office Staffing Sub-Committee passed the following resolution:
"That the Hyde and Longdendale Divisional Executive be informed (a) that this school"—
that is, the Oakfield Central Primary School—
"was included in the list of projects submitted to the Ministry of Education by the Authority for consideration in connection with the 1955–56 building programme, and that final information regarding the projects to be included in this building programme is awaited from the Ministry of Education; (b) that all decisions regarding the inclusion, or otherwise, of projects in the Authority's building programme are made by the Minister of Education."
So the county education authority have passed the ball to the Minister.
I discussed this question with the hon. Gentleman, who kindly gave me a full statement from the Ministry's standpoint, although I must say that I could not agree with the figures he submitted for the estimated surplus or deficit at various schools. They do not agree with any statistics in my possession, and I have quite a lot.
I then saw the Minister, with very high hopes, because I thought I had a good case, but unfortunately he turned it down. The substance of the Minister's case was that, taking Hyde as a whole, there is sufficient accommodation. I cannot deny that, but I would make the following comments. First, one must take into account the movement of population. Two-thirds of all the new housing in Hyde has been erected in the Newton area and, secondly, one cannot decide, merely by glancing at a map of Hyde that certain schools are suitable alternatives. Children do not travel as the crow flies, they have to follow the normal routes. It is not much use moving people out to the periphery and then bringing large numbers of children back into the congested centre at busy hours.
I would point out to the Minister that, radiating from the centre of the town are important roads to Manchester, Sheffield and Stockport as well as roads busy with local traffic to the neighbouring towns of Dukinfield, Stalybridge, and Ashton.

2203
Then the Hyde Town Council again entered the arena, and I have here a copy of the motion which it submitted to the Minister. I should like to read it:
"That this Council is profoundly shocked"—
I should like to stress those two words "profoundly shocked"—
"at the decision of the Ministry of Education on information provided by the Cheshire County Council not to include Oakfield County Primary School in the building programme of the Cheshire Local Education Authority for 1955–56. In view of the inadequate accommodation at the only school in the Newton area for the permanently increased population, and the wasteful daily travelling thereby incurred by children from this area to schools in other parts of the borough, this Council requests an urgent reconsideration of the decision."
The Ministry, in its reply, reduced to two the schools to provide possible accommodation for excess children, that is, Flowery Field and Leigh Street. In my view the only school which can reasonably be considered along with the present Newton school is Flowery Field. This school—an excellent school, I might say—is a corridor school. By that, I mean that it is impossible to pass from one part of the school to another without going through classrooms. In any case the school is full. When at a recent meeting of the Hyde and Longdendale Divisional Education Committee a member asked how many vacancies there were at this school the answer of the divisional education officer was "None, sir."
I would also refer here again to the further 192 houses which are being erected in close proximity to Flowery Field School. It has been suggested that the position may improve in the future, but let us consider the following details of children under five at present resident in the area. They are, 0-1, 168; 1-2, 150; 2-3, 167; 3-4, 179; 4-5, 179. According to the Cheshire County Education Committee's scheme the intake of children at Newton is limited to 45 and at Flowery Field to 90, making a total of 135 for the two schools.
In order to make myself fully conversant with the problem, I visited Flowery Field and Newton Church of England School. At Newton, one class is, by the co-operation of the managers
2204
of the nearby Methodist Sunday School, accommodated there. The fact that the Cheshire Education Committee would be willing to rent further accommodation there if it could be obtained rather disposes of the travel argument.
At Newton, the playground is small, unsuitable because of its size either for games or physical training, and its surface is a danger to life and limb. Cracks are appearing in the building, but I am told it is only the foundations settling. I should have thought that that would have taken place last century. Some improvements have been made internally. Three wash-basins have been installed in one cloakroom and four in another. There was no room for more. There are seven basins, fitted with cold water only, for more than 300 children. As for the lavatories, I should hate to think that any child of mine had to go anywhere near them. The closets are sufficient to give a child a complex for life about the natural functions of the body. The boys' latrine reminds me of a tilted pig trough.
We are very grateful to the Church authorities for their great contribution to the cause of education in this area and the many sacrifices which they have made, but prices have risen, and the Church authorities no longer find themselves able to carry the financial burden. The school, therefore, has become controlled, and the local education authority will be faced with fairly heavy expenditure, even if no new school is provided.
I beg the Minister to have this problem thoroughly investigated on the spot and not to settle it in London merely by looking at a map and a list of statistics. I suggest that whoever undertakes the investigation should take a walk from Flowery Field to Leigh Street, or any other school considered as an alternative, and then imagine the walk being undertaken by a child of five.
I apologise to the Minister for having taken up so much of the time available, but as far as I am concerned the Minister need not long be out of his bed. If he will confine his reply to the one sentence, "We will have another look at the problem," I shall be satisfied. Of course, if he makes his reply briefer and says, "Yes," I shall be still more satisfied.
10.40 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Mr. Dennis Vosper): The invitation of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) is very attractive, but I feel that I must reply to some of the points which he has made tonight. As I think that he is aware, I have considerable sympathy with the case which he has presented to the House. Although I have reason to believe that there are many schools in the country which are needed as much as the school which the hon. Member mentions, I agree that there can be few, if any, where the people concerned have been so near getting what the want only to find themselves repeatedly unfortunate.
I have no cause to disagree in principle with what the hon. Member has said about the history of the school. It is a fact that it was included in the 1950–51 programme, but, owing to construction and cost difficulties, for which my right hon. Friends' predecessor can accept no responsibility, it was deferred until the end of the 1951–52 year, by which time it was overtaken by the recasting of the school building programme.
I am sorry that the hon. Member sought to bring politics into that decision. It was a decision, of course, of this Government, made in the early days. It was made because the school building industry, and the building industry generally was overladen, and steel was in short supply; for this the present Government cannot accept responsibility. However, the decision had the effect of enabling the Government to complete 220,000school places in 1952 compared with 159,000 in 1951. Therefore, from the general educational point of view, the moratorium was effective, but it had the effect of delaying this particular school still further.
When the Cheshire authority came to recast its own school building programme, it decided, in the light of Circular 245, that it could accommodate all the children of primary school age within existing schools and, therefore, for the year 1952–53 it did not resubmit this school.
The next stage, as the hon. Member said, was when my right hon. Friend's predecessor, the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh) decided to include the school
2206
in the reserve programme for 1954–55. She did this—this is in reply to the hon. Member's point—because she was provided with local information through the inspectorate that there was a need for the school. However, when the authority came to consider the proposal for 1955–56, it was able to convince the right hon. Lady that provision for the primary children could continue to be made in the existing schools; and for that reason the Cheshire authority did not wish to propose the school high up in its main building programme for that year.
It is a fact that for the programme for 1955–56, which is due to commence in the coming weeks, the Cheshire authority did put forward the school, and for that reason it is mentioned in the estimates. But the school was at the bottom of the list submitted. Every authority in the country puts forward more proposals than can possibly be contemplated, and any proposal that comes forward at the bottom of the list has little or no chance of being included when final approval is given. As Circular 245 was still in operation, it was not possible for the Minister to give approval to the school at the bottom of the programme when the authority itself said that it was able to provide sufficient school places within the area.
Therefore, while I agree with the hon. Member that the school has had an unfortunate history, I do not think he would wish me to decide the case tonight upon that fact alone. It must be decided in the light of present circumstances. It is with these that I now wish to deal.
On 30th November last my right hon. Friend was able to announce considerable advances in the field of school building, the principal among them being that local authorities would now be able to undertake the provision of secondary education for all children in rural areas, and the second one—possibly the more important to the hon. Member—being that authorities could undertake as many minor works—projects up to a ceiling of £10,000—as they wished in the coming years.
But, while it was generally agreed by all interested in education that these two advances—in the direction of secondary education for all and of an extension of the minor works programme—were first

2207
requirements, the Circular used these words:
"The pace at which the advances announced can be achieved and be followed by further advances depends directly upon the strictest control over both current and capital expenditure."
We are not yet ready to tackle further projects which would give the hon. Member what he wants, that is, to provide schools either to relieve overcrowding, or because schools are dilapidated or old.
My right hon. Friend, in his speech on 30th November, said that we must get rid of the whole lot and by that he meant the dilapidated and overcrowded schools. But these two categories must take second place to the provision of school places for the additional children and to the completion of provision for secondary education. The alternative is that some children would not be able to go to school at the age of five.
I do not think that the hon. Member has disputed the fact that in the Borough of Hyde there is sufficient overall accommodation for the children concerned. He rests his case on arguing that the accommodation is either unsuitable, or it is old, or it is in the wrong places in the town. It is with those arguments that I now wish to deal.
Of course, I admit that the Newton school is an old school—I think that it is even blacklisted—and as soon as we can replace dilapidated schools that school must be replaced. That is not a matter in dispute, but it is not yet possible, as I have already said, to rebuild schools simply because they are old. Then he argued that it is overcrowded. I have not time to dispute, nor would I wish to, the figures which the hon. Member has presented, but I bring three points to his notice.
First, I do not dispute the fact that there are more children in Hyde schools than is desirable in a perfect world of education. Secondly, I have reason to believe that the position in Hyde is no worse than in any other comparable town or borough in Cheshire, or in many other parts of the country. Thirdly, and I think that this is important—the hon. Member did not mention it—this year is the peak year in primary schools, particularly in Hyde. According to the figures given to me, there will be a fairly
2208
rapid drop in the primary school population during the coming years. Therefore, it is difficult on present policy to provide a new school simply because the numbers in the existing school are now above the statutory limit. I have here a list of every class in all the primary schools in Hyde and I admit that some of them are above the maximum, but there is no class in Hyde above the number of 50.
Mr. Blackburn: It is no use considering most of the schools in Hyde as being possible alternatives, because practically all the building is taking place in one area. To get to that area the children have to go through the busy centre of the town, and that is dangerous for young children.
Mr. Vosper: I was coming to that point. I was dealing with the argument that schools are dilapidated and overcrowded.
No child going to any primary school in Hyde has to travel more than two miles, that is to say, they are all within the statutory walking distance. But I fully appreciate that in the Borough of Hyde there are difficulties, because of the nature of the town. I can suggest only that the Minister has power to approve transport where there are special traffic difficulties, or particularly dangerous areas. In the case of Hyde, it is a fact that no application has yet been made for special transport by the local authority.
At the moment, there is no justification for this school on the ground of additional numbers and that is the only way the local authority can justify this school in its coming building proposals. The hon. Member mentioned the construction of new houses, but these are almost entirely for the existing population of Hyde. It is a shift from one portion of the town to the other, admittedly; but the overall school population, according to my figures, will not increase but decrease. As yet there is no firm evidence that the Manchester overspill building, which would completely alter the picture, is likely to develop here.
My right hon. Friend, however, gave the hon. Member this assurance:
"I have already promised to reconsider the project if there is a major change in the circumstances, and I will certainly keep a close eye on developments in the area."

2209
The hon. Gentleman said that what he wanted tonight was reconsideration. That is really not at present within my right hon. Friend's province. The Cheshire Education Committee are meeting to discuss their 1956–57 proposals this week, I understand. I will at least make the promise that I will send a copy of the hon. Member's speech and my reply to the Director of Education, but I can give him no assurance that the authority, in the light of the existing policy, will be able to do what he wishes.
I would only suggest that—while a new school will most certainly be provided as soon as it can be to replace Newton school—to alleviate the present distress to his constituents possibly something could be done to provide transport facilities in the difficult areas, and quite a
2210
deal could be done in the form of minor works in those schools not due for replacement, to remedy the conditions which the hon. Member stressed in his final remarks.
I know that that is a disappointing reply, but, in conclusion, I would say to the hon. Member that during the last years the area which he represents has done reasonably well in the provision of schools, and I hope that it will continue to do so.
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at eight minutes to Eleven o'clock.

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  Capital Offences (Emergency Regulations)
  Capital Offences (Emergency Regulations)
  Death Sentence (Perjury)
  Death Sentence (Perjury)
  Richard Achierg Oneko (Detention)
  Richard Achierg Oneko (Detention)
  UGANDA (CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM)
  UGANDA (CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM)
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Hydro-Electricity (Land Acquisition)
  Hydro-Electricity (Land Acquisition)
  Leprosy (Treatment)
  Leprosy (Treatment)
  Mufulina (Meat)
  Mufulina (Meat)
  Inter-Territorial Movement Ordinance
  Inter-Territorial Movement Ordinance
  Chief Green Zulu
  Chief Green Zulu
  NYASALAND (RAILWAYS)
  NYASALAND (RAILWAYS)
TANGANYIKA
  African Enterprise (Assistance)
  African Enterprise (Assistance)
  Societies Ordinance
  Societies Ordinance
  Whitley Council
  Whitley Council
  African Union Branches (Registration Refusal)
  African Union Branches (Registration Refusal)
  CYPRUS (EARTHQUAKE RELIEF)
  CYPRUS (EARTHQUAKE RELIEF)
ROYAL NAVY
  Aircraft (Deliveries)
  Aircraft (Deliveries)
  Overseas Births (Registration)
  Overseas Births (Registration)
  General Service Medal (Clasp)
  General Service Medal (Clasp)
  H.M.S. "Grenville"
  H.M.S. "Grenville"
  Discipline Act (Committee's Recommendations)
  Discipline Act (Committee's Recommendations)
  Recruitment and Re-engagement
  Recruitment and Re-engagement
  Submarines (Nuclear Power)
  Submarines (Nuclear Power)
  Fighter Aircraft N.113
  Fighter Aircraft N.113
  Discharge by Purchase
  Discharge by Purchase
  Special Service Engagements
  Special Service Engagements
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, SULLY
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, SULLY
POST OFFICE
  Members' Office (Mail, Cardiff)
  Members' Office (Mail, Cardiff)
  Falkland Islands (Mail from United Kingdom)
  Falkland Islands (Mail from United Kingdom)
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  B.B.C. and I.T.A. (Transmitter Masts)
  B.B.C. and I.T.A. (Transmitter Masts)
  Parliamentary Debates (Broadcast Discussions)
  Parliamentary Debates (Broadcast Discussions)
  Television Act, 1954 (Operation)
  Television Act, 1954 (Operation)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Newspapers and Periodicals (Security Guidance)
  Newspapers and Periodicals (Security Guidance)
  Vaccination and Inoculation
  Vaccination and Inoculation
  Cuxhaven Bombing Range (Wild Bird Protection)
  Cuxhaven Bombing Range (Wild Bird Protection)
ROADS
  New Bridge, Kingsferry
  New Bridge, Kingsferry
  Expanded Programme
  Expanded Programme
  Improvements and Construction (Progress)
  Improvements and Construction (Progress)
  New Construction (Preliminary Procedure)
  New Construction (Preliminary Procedure)
  Ice and Grease
  Ice and Grease
  Safety Activities (Exchequer Grant)
  Safety Activities (Exchequer Grant)
  Maintenance and Minor Improvement
  Maintenance and Minor Improvement
  Route A66
  Route A66
  Accidents, Brentford and Chiswick
  Accidents, Brentford and Chiswick
  London-Glasgow Trunk Road
  London-Glasgow Trunk Road
  Accidents, Lanarkshire
  Accidents, Lanarkshire
TRANSPORT
  Road and Rail Traffic Act (Prosecutions)
  Road and Rail Traffic Act (Prosecutions)
  Canals (Report)
  Canals (Report)
  London Transport (Report of Committee)
  London Transport (Report of Committee)
  Car Ferries, Scotland (Boats)
  Car Ferries, Scotland (Boats)
  Merchant Navy (Potential Recruits)
  Merchant Navy (Potential Recruits)
  Comet Aircraft Crashes (Compensation)
  Comet Aircraft Crashes (Compensation)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Prisoners of War (Guidance)
  Prisoners of War (Guidance)
  Service Departments (Non-Industrial Civil Servants)
  Service Departments (Non-Industrial Civil Servants)
  ELECTRIC LAMPS AND CABLES (MONOPOLIES COMMISSION)
  ELECTRIC LAMPS AND CABLES (MONOPOLIES COMMISSION)
  MURDERS (STATISTICS)
  MURDERS (STATISTICS)
HOUSING
  Allocations
  Allocations
  Improvement Grants (Exchequer Contribution)
  Improvement Grants (Exchequer Contribution)
  Building Programme (Land Requirements)
  Building Programme (Land Requirements)
  Certificates of Disrepair, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
  Certificates of Disrepair, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  LORD ADRIAN
  2.34 p.m.
  Edgar Douglas Adrian, Esquire, O.M., having been created Baron Adrian, of Cambridge in the County of Cambridge—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

SIMONSTOWN NAVAL BASE
2.41 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if the future of Simonstown naval base was discussed at the recent Prime Ministers' Conference and, if so, what decisions were reached.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, the future of the Simonstown naval base was not discussed at the recent Prime Ministers' Conference.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply, but I am sure he will not expect me to regard it as very satisfactory. May I ask when there is a possibility of his being able to make a statement on this matter? It has now been discussed for upwards of a year; a high-powered Admiralty mission has been to Simonstown; and we have had a Prime Ministers' Conference, at which apparently it was not discussed although it is a subject of vital importance in Commonwealth defence. Is there no prospect that the matter will be brought to a speedy decision?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the Prime Ministers' Conference was concerned with broad issues of defence policy—that is the reason why this matter was not discussed; and, as I think I told the noble Lord, Lord Winster, on a previous
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occasion, the Admiralty are still discussing the report of the mission which they sent to Simonstown.

AUSTRALIAN FLOOD DISASTER
2.43 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (VISCOUNT SWINTOIN): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make a statement about the contribution from Her Majesty's Government following the floods in Australia. The reports which have now been received show that the floods in New South Wales are the worst in the history of Australia. The deep sympathy which everyone in this country feels for the victims of this disaster was voiced by the Prime Minister in another place yesterday. Her Majesty's Government are sure that it would be the wish of everyone in this country that our sympathy should be expressed in a practical form. We all remember the generous help which the Government and people of Australia gave us in our disasters in recent years. Her Majesty's Government have informed the Australian Government that it is their desire to contribute a sum of £250,000 towards the flood relief in New South Wales.
We are asking the Australian authorities what is the most effective way in which this sum should be made available. It may be that there is an urgent need for special medical supplies or other commodities not immediately available in sufficient quantities in Australia. If that should be so, the United Kingdom Government will do their best to help with such supplies. We shall thus be able to make our contribution in whatever way is most helpful to New South Wales.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, it is fitting that I should identify those noble Lords who sit on this side of the House completely and absolutely with what the noble Viscount has said. We regard this misfortune as we should regard a misfortune to a member of our own family, and we are delighted that Her Majesty's Government have taken this very right course. This contribution does not, of course, preclude subscription to private funds, one of which is, I believe, being arranged at the present time. I feel most sincerely that the people of this country,

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remembering all that Australia has done for them in their hour of peril, ought now to do everything they can to show that we feel absolutely at one with the Australian people in their present trouble.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, all sections of your Lordships' House will wish to join in this expression of the very sincere sympathy which your Lordships feel on the occasion of this calamity which has befallen the people of New South Wales. All noble Lords, and public opinion in this country generally, will most cordially approve the grant of financial assistance which it is now proposed should be made by Her Majesty's Government in the name of the nation.

ROAD AND RAIL TRANSPORT POLICY
2.47 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH rose to call attention to the road and rail transport policy of Her Majesty's Government; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I can but hope that the very natural reluctance of your Lordships to listen to my voice for the third day in succession may be somewhat mitigated by the importance of the subject matter which I have ventured to place before your Lordships' House. The time has arrived when it would be well for us to survey at least the inland transport position of this country, and to ask Her Majesty's Government what is their policy, upon what considerations that policy was based, what conclusions they came to and what were the events and circumstances which led them to form their policy. I feel the time is opportune because at the present moment we are considering the expenditure of huge capital sums. I do not draw the fine distinction that was drawn yesterday afternoon by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, in your Lordships' House in reply to a question by the noble Earl, Lord Howe; I do not draw any distinction between money that is raised on loan guaranteed in principal and interest by the State, and money raised by taxes. We have going forward huge projects greater than any we have had for a very long time, and I see no reason why, in addressing myself to this problem, I should depart from the principles that have been inculcated into me during all the time that I have been in industry and commerce. To me,
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this is a commercial proposition, and I can see no reason why, just because we are dealing with national finances and our economic future, the proposition should be treated any differently from the way I should deal with any ordinary, private commercial project.
I do not intend to go into a lot of detail or to trespass upon another debate which may take place in your Lordships' House upon the borrowing powers of the British Transport Commission. I cannot dictate the course of this debate, and it would be impertinent for me to try to do so; but I shall content myself with dealing with the question on the broadest level. May I express my gratitude, and that which I believe all noble Lords will feel, to Her Majesty's Government for having considered this matter of sufficient importance for the noble Marquess who leads the House to himself intervene in this debate.
I consider this to be an opportune moment also for the reason that no Government has, for a long time, been confronted with as many problems relating to the subject matter of this Motion as is Her Majesty's Government at the present time. May I list a few of them? There are the plan for the expenditure of £1,200 million upon the modernisation of our railway system over a period of fifteen years; the plan for spending £147 million on the roads of this country over four years; the increasingly serious budgetary problem of the tax on fuel and on road vehicles; the congestion of the roads in our towns and cities—a subject that has been interesting your Lordships for the last six days—and the disposal of the road haulage assets of the British Transport Commission. All those problems are interrelated, and it would be futile, in my view, to consider any one of them in isolation from the others.
As they all deal with finance, I intend to make my starting point capital expenditure. It is inevitable that comparisons must be made when considering the capital expenditure incurred in the projects which I have listed. One must compare the proposed expenditure upon the railways of £80 million per annum for fifteen years, with the £37 million per annum for four years to be spent on the roads. I ask Her Majesty's Government, how was that balance arrived at? What were the considerations which influenced Her Majesty's Government to say that

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they will spend, or will authorise the expenditure of, or will guarantee the expenditure of—it makes no difference—£1,200 million upon the modernisation of the railways, and will spend as capital expenditure, apart from local authority expenditure and maintenance, £147 million on the roads? I cannot believe that they arrived at those figures on a "hit or miss" basis. But, from what I can see, the railway plan was conceived in the isolation of the British Transport Commission, and the road plan was drawn up in a watertight compartment within the Ministry of Transport. By some strange coincidence they were announced almost within two or three days.
Colour is lent to what I have just said by a little story which was told me by a friend who happened to be in Scotland at the time when the majority of the members of the British Transport Commission were in Edinburgh. They had a Press reception with, I believe, all those nice things that go with Press receptions. This reception, which was attended by Press photographers and journalists, happened to be held on precisely the day upon which the road plan was announced by the right honourable gentleman in another place. Everyone was agog for news, and the question was asked of representatives of the British Transport Commission: "What is this tube which is going to be constructed under The Forth?" The representatives of the Commission who were addressed said: "What tube? We have never heard anything about a tube." They were asked: "But don't you know all about it?" and they said that they knew nothing about it at all. Here is the British Transport Commission, running the railway over the Forth by means of the Forth Bridge, building more ferry boats to relieve road congestion, and this was the first they had heard of the project to drive a tunnel under the Forth to carry road traffic. If that be true—and I have no reason to disbelieve that story—it certainly does not seem that there was much co-ordination there.
There is another point; it is a point that I feel it my duty to make, and I do not think I shall be accused of taking a Party angle in making it. The past history of Her Majesty's Government's excursions into transport economics does not inspire all the confidence I should
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like in the breast of the impartial observer. I have only to point to the White Paper of 1952 which was ridiculed by all informed opinion, irrespective of Party. That preceded the introduction of the first Road Transport Bill, which, in its turn, was so ridiculed that it did not even see a Second Reading in another place. I have examined all the Ministerial statements that have been made about these two huge capital expenditure projects, and I must confess that I am left with the unhappy impression that a very harried policy garment was manufactured to cover the nakedness of the statements—the railway plan on the one hand and the road plan on the other—after they had been made.
I think credence is given to that by the alacrity with which Her Majesty's Government embraced the railway plan. This gave me the impression that it provided them with a heaven-sent opportunity of amortising—if I may use that word—the unfortunate deficit of the British Railways, swollen to some extent by the wages award. In the middle of all the protestations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Transport, that the last thing that was intended was that the railways should have a subsidy, they produced a hidden subsidy, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in another place, that if the British Transport Commission had to go on to the money market to borrow £800 million it would be guaranteed in principal and interest by the State. Compare that with the situation which would arise if the noble Marquess and I attempted to go to the money market as ordinary commercial individuals and all we had to offer the investor was a concern that was losing £30 million a year, and night lose it for some considerable time, but which, in fifteen years' time, if only a generous public would give us £800 million, might make a profit. I do not know how much money we should get, but I would hazard a guess that it would not be very much. We might even find ourselves in trouble for issuing what might be considered a "phony" prospectus. So there is this subsidy.
I am not discussing whether it should or should not be given. The question it raises is this. Was there any proper thought as to how this £1,200 million was to be spent? Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer made another statement

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which noble Lords, if they are so minded, can read for themselves—I am not going to waste your Lordships' time by reading it now. It is in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the proceedings in another place on February 3, 1955. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in effect (I am paraphrasing his words): "You may ask how the interests of road and rail are married up. Out of this £1,200 million it is proposed to spend £200 million on the tracks and the signalling of British railways. That compares"—he went on to say—"with what we are going to spend on the roads." This is the last sentence of what he said (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 536 (No. 25); col. 1308):
"This enables me to illustrate to the House that a large part of this modernisation and re-equipment of British Railways is not on the track, which is what should be compared with the roads, …"
That is ingenious, but slightly ingenuous, because what the right honourable gentleman did not say was that the railways have the monopoly of the use of those tracks while the roads are used by the whole community, including the railways.
In the whole of this plan for rebuilding bridges, I see no statement that the necessary bridges are to be built over the 5,000 level-crossings which cut up our highways; no mention of the fact that the money for the capital expenditure on the roads, with the interest and maintenance charges, is found by the motor user and ratepayer. While the railways are going to spend £200 million on tracks, the road user is to contribute £6,187 million, at the current yield—which, up to the end of March of this year, is estimated to be £412 million—in motor vehicle taxation in all its aspects: fuel tax, excise duties, purchase tax and so on. There is not much balance in that. These are big figures in any context, even at a time such as this, when millions slip very readily off the end of one's tongue. I am not complaining about the amount of money that is to be spent, but I would ask the Government to tell me what considerations they had in mind in assessing these sums.
There is a more serious aspect of this question of taxation. Are we to understand that this taxation will remain at its present high level while road expenditure stays at its present low level? A
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reduction in taxation is something we all hope for, and it is vitally necessary in the interests of the country. I would draw your Lordships' attention to the Report on London transport, which has just been issued and which shows that 9 per cent. of the total costs are eaten up by taxation on fuel. That is true not only for London Transport but also for every other road user in the country—for the British Transport Commission and for John Jones and Bill Robinson.
If we are going to bring road taxation down, as I think we must do in the interests of the country's economy, what will be the impact of the greater efficiency of road transport on the costs basis, and therefore on the charging basis, of the railways? Has that been taken into consideration? Once we start increasing the competitive power of the road, what impact will it have upon the £1,200 million plan? Will the returns reach the nicely and neatly calculated sums expected? The plan says that after we have spent £1,200 million on the railways, freight revenue should go up by £60 million. Is it expected that that increase will be achieved while the efficiency of all other competitors stands still. Were these factors taken into consideration? I want to impress upon the House that I am not complaining about the amount of money that is being spent—perhaps £1,200 million is not enough to spend on the railways. What I want to know is how this nice balance was arrived at. What is the policy?
After we have arrived at these figures, what about the priorities inside both railways and roads? I am going to leave the technical aspects of the railway plan to other noble Lords; I want to stay on the broad highway of policy. I have examined with great care all the details of these two plans that have been published, and I confess that I see in many of the projects rather more politics than sound road economics. It appears to me that the £147 million will be spread over as wide a field as possible, and I am afraid we shall fall into the same error as we fell into years ago, of fitting lengths of two-inch pipe into a one-inch pipe system. If traffic trends—I want the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, really to consider this—are maintained as at present, the roads projected by the Minister of Transport will be over-trafficked even before they are completed. In five years'

661
time we shall have to widen some of the roads that are mentioned in the plan for the next four years. I submit that it is useless to build main motor roads—say from London to Birmingham—if they start in a congested area and finish in a congested area. It is useless to have quick-moving traffic in between the towns if the whole gain is lost in those towns. Our most crowded area, the biggest and most congested city in the world, on which we have had many discussions over the last two weeks, is to get only £18 million out of the £147 million. That sum will not even begin to put the congestion of London right.
That brings me to the great problem of congestion; and here I want to address a specific question to the Government. I have read (not read in detail, because I have not had the time since it came out) the Report on London transport. Here we have an informed opinion saying that perhaps it would be as well to take the traffic off the streets of London and put it underground. I am not going to discuss the technical aspect, but I would ask one question. I am told on great authority—in fact, no less than a Ministerial statement—that the new Tube project in London will cost £50 million, and can never be hoped to be made to pay. The only benefit will be that it may make a contribution to the amelioration of the traffic congestion in London. But it foreshortens the revenue. If it takes revenue from the buses and puts it underground it will put London Transport, who are paying £4 million a year in fuel tax, out of a total fuel bill of £6 million a year, deeper "in the red." Who is going to pay for that? Do the Government expect the British Transport Commission, or London Transport—the principal and interest being guaranteed by the taxpayer—to subsidise that loss on their revenue through the building of a Tube which will cost £50 million? I do not know, but surely this great problem has been thought about.
That brings me to the organisation of our road traffic. We have got to do a lot of thinking. If we are going to spend £147 million—and I regard that as an infinitesimal sum compared with what is wanted—on new highways, we must see that that capital cost comes back. We must do the same as industry. If we are to maintain and improve our competitive position in the export markets of the
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world, our capital equipment, whether it is a machine tool in the factory or a highway, will have to work "all round the clock"; because we cannot afford to have our highways over-trafficked for twelve hours each day and sparsely trafficked for the other twelve.
I now come to what may be considered the most controversial part of the speech I have to make. I do not think I have been controversial so far, but have only asked a few questions. I want to ask the Government this question. Do they not think the time has arrived to call a halt to the disposal of the road haulage assets of the British Transport Commission? I put this to your Lordships on commercial grounds. If we are to keep our highways properly trafficked—delivery from factory to factory, or from factory to dock, overnight; shifting our heavy transport more at night and less by day on these new roads—then only a large-scale organisation can do it. I believe that the time has arrived when we should, without any political bias, study this question.
The twenty-five miles radius limit has gone. Let us see where we stand. Of the total vehicles held by British Road Services at the time of the 1953 Act, the number sold so far is about 13,000. No large units have been sold; nearly every one of those vehicles has gone to increase the fleet of a small operator. At the present time there are in the country 60,000 A licence and 60,000 B licence vehicles—they are the heavy haulage vehicles—competing with the British Road Services' fleet of 17,000. There are 860,000 C licence vehicles, but as a large proportion of those are not long-distance road haulage but more concerned with local delivery, I have left them out of my calculations. Incidentally, I should have thought that was enough competition to satisfy the most (shall I say?) vicious appetite. Before the Transport Act, 1947, there were 18,000 vehicles engaged on long-distance haulage, organised in large units. There is no such thing now.
I want to put it seriously to your Lordships that we have now achieved all the benefits—if one can call them benefits—at any rate all that it is wise to achieve, under the Act of 1953. There is one thing that has not happened which all its most clamorous supporters thought would happen: none of the old large

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users have come back into the road haulage industry. That is significant. No large blocks of capital have come back into the road haulage industry, and the red light is shining. The reason I say that now is the right time to study this question is that I believe British Road Services are reaching the point where, if any more of their fleet is taken away, if they are (if I may use the expression) beggared, they will be unable to satisfy the demands made upon them. And there is no other organisation to come in and take their place.
The existing British Road Services' long-haulage fleet now comprises 17,000 vehicles, compared to 18,000 vehicles, organised in large-scale units, before the war. I have left out the parcels service and the specialised traffic. The parcels service is one of the most highly organised services that has ever been attempted in this country by British Road Services. Operating 4,000 vehicles, it was formed into a separate company. But they have never had an offer for this service. If we are going to proceed along the lines of political ideologies, if we do not face up to the fact that the red light is showing and that disaster will face this country if we disperse the only large-scale road organisation in the country, then we shall indeed be putting the clock back.
With all this talk of efficiency, I want to ask the Government: Do you not think the time has arrived when we should reconsider this matter? I yield to no one in my enthusiasm for the railway plan, but I approach it with a little more caution. We are increasing the efficiency of the railways. Investment they sorely need, and always have done. But efficiency for what? Has the real place of the railways in the transport economy of this country during the next twenty-five years been thought out? If so, what conclusions have been reached? I beg your Lordships to realise that it is not a question of making the railways pay: it is a question of making the country pay, by giving the country the right type of organisation. To make the railways pay is easy when you have the fiscal weapon in your hand: all you have to do is to increase the taxation of your competitors. Is it not a strange thing how the circle goes round? Because it was in 1926 that
664
the present Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, did this very thing. His first raid on the Road Fund in 1926 was to curb the expansion of road transport for the benefit of the railways. Having started that "rake's progress," on and on it has gone until the competitor—if one can put it that way—to railway transport pays £6,187 million in taxation while the capital investment on the roads will be £550 million.
I beg your Lordships to give this matter serious consideration, because transport is in a very difficult position and the Government realise it. The reason why it is in a difficult position is that this attempt at competition, although wise up to a point—I do not decry the virtues of competition—becomes unwise beyond that point. Right the way through this document the British Transport Commission keep making reference to it: that what we must do is to assess what it is most economic to carry by rail and what we must hive off to road. They say we shall have faster trains and fewer stopping places, fewer branch lines, containers that can be taken off the rail and put on the road. But to whom are they going to hive it off—to their competitors or their own organisation? The British Transport Commission must be given the opportunity to expand their economy, but it is useless to tell them they must expand their economy and hive off some of these things on to their competitors.
Let us learn the lesson—and I think it is a lesson we can learn—from how road passenger transport has developed. Section 11 of the Road Transport Act, 1953—the section under which the Minister took powers to compel the British Transport Commission to sell its road passenger interests—has never been put into operation because the Government knew very well that the whole road passenger industry of this country and its service to the community would break down if it were. What is the difference between road passengers and road freight? There are many other aspects of this subject upon which I should like to enlarge, but I have kept your Lordships too long. I wanted to put the whole position as I see it before you, and to ask Her Majesty's Government what tempted them to continue this policy. Did they have a fundamentally sound basis of

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policy considerations before they did all this? If so, I think this House and, indeed, the country have a right to be told. I beg to move for Papers.
3.26 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I should first like, if I may with all deference, to express my personal admiration for the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, for the spirit he showed in advancing to the attack again for the fourth time in four days—at least I think so; certainly the third time in three days. I know from my own experience what a strain that puts upon speakers, and I think that what the noble Lord has achieved is a considerable Parliamentary feat. I should also like to thank him for giving me notice of the broad line which he proposed to take this afternoon on this extremely intricate subject of road and rail, and also for the constructive intention which I am sure underlaid what he said, though I should add that I do not think his constructive spirit went quite so far as to tempt him to suggest any practical alternative to the Government's scheme. All I could hear—I listened as carefully as I could—was that he would, if it had been he, have spent on rail a good deal less money than the Transport Commission—I see the noble Lord nods his head, so he does not disapprove of that. On the roads he would have spent a good deal more, a thing which in fact his own Government when in power did not do. In fact, they did not spend as much as the Government now propose to do.
I do not complain of his criticising the Government: after all, he sits on the Front Opposition Bench, and any other attitude would have been surprising. I feel sorely tempted to pursue him on to that ground. There is a great deal I should like to say in support of the considerations which led the Government to denationalise road transport, and I may add that the experience of the last two years, in spite of what the noble Lord has said to-day, has not led us to regret our decision—indeed quite the contrary. But I propose to restrain myself in that particular direction, first because I do not, for reasons which should be apparent to the House, wish to indulge merely in controversy on a subject of this kind—like the noble Lord, I want to try, so far as I
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can, to make a constructive speech. Secondly, my noble friend Lord Hawke, who is going to speak at the end of the debate, will deal, I am sure, most effectively with a number of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, which are perhaps more suited to a winding-up speech than the one I have personally in mind. Thirdly, I do not want to look back but forward, and I want to give the House what I am sure it really wants—an account of Government policy for the future, both with regard to road and with regard to rail. But to avoid being told later, as I might naturally be told, that I have not even attempted to answer any of the points which have been made by the noble Lord, there are one or two words I should like to say before I pass to the portion of my speech which deals with the future.
The first relates to the unification of rail and road under the late Government's Act, and its separation under the legislation of the present Government. It has been suggested—I do not think the noble Lord directly suggested it to-day but it was, I thought, implied in his remarks—that the arguments in favour of the unification of road and rail transport, the policy which the Government of which he was a member adopted, were not merely ideological but were practical as well. It was urged—I do not want to mistake their attitude but this is how I understand it—that the only way to keep the railways of Britain going was to balance their inevitable losses against the profits of road transport, and run them as a single concern, balancing them one against the other. I would not for one moment accept the assumption that British Railways by themselves can never make a profit in the modern world. I believe that would be both fallacious and extremely dangerous. Once one accepts the premise that it is quite proper for a nationalised industry always to run at a loss, one comes on to a very slippery slope indeed; for, after all, what incentive remains for that industry, and for those who take part in it, to exercise any proper control of their own affairs? How easy it is for them to get into the habit of thinking that someone will always pay for it. And soon the habit will spread from one nationalised industry to another nationalised industry, and it will go on happily ahead on the assumption that somebody else will pay.

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And who will ultimately pay? There is only one body who will ultimately pay, and that is the British public, either in higher taxation or in higher charges. That, we believe, is exactly what would have happened in the case of the railways, if we had continued this unified system. The railways would have got further and further "into the red," and they would have leant more heavily on road transport until the burden on that also became too heavy to bear; and then they would ultimately have gone down together in a common ruin. I think the only result of unifying the two would have been to mask this steady deterioration from the public and bolster up this rickety structure until the position was beyond repair. I do not expect noble Lords opposite to accept that assumption. They take a different view. But I believe that that would have been a very unwise policy for us to adopt. No doubt, there may be bad years when any industry or any individual firm may show a loss—that is the common experience of business, as we all know—but neither Her Majesty's Government nor the British Transport Commission themselves accept the fact that British Railways must always run at a loss. We believe that if the railways face up to the facts, and if, above all, both the employers and the trade unions take all the measures that are necessary to set their house in order, it is still possible to make that industry a going concern. That is the main purpose of the plan for the railways about which I am going to speak to your Lordships in a minute.
So far as the railways themselves are concerned, therefore, the purpose of the Government policy, put quite shortly, is to lay them open to healthy competition and to give them the means to meet that competition. It is in that way, and in that way alone, in our view, instead of confining them within the enervating atmosphere of monopoly, that we shall best serve the interests of the British people. In answer to something which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said, I would say that if, in order to prime this operation, to give it a proper start, we thought it desirable in respect of a State-owned enterprise to guarantee a loan for the purpose of putting the thing on its feet, I see no reason why anybody
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should object to it, and I am sure that noble Lords opposite would not, either.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: No.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I understood the noble Lord to complain of the fact that Her Majesty's Government have said that they would guarantee the loan which must be raised for the purposes of the plan.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I do not want to interrupt the noble Marquess, because it is an interesting point. No; I said only that if you are going to give a subsidy, say it, because a subsidy called by any other name is the same thing. I do not mind, but you must not say one day, "Of course, we are not going to subsidise," and the next day say that you are going to guarantee the principal of a loan, because that is the same thing.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: This is the point between us. If we really thought that this loan was not going to put the railways on their feet, then it would be a subsidy; but we do not. We think it is going to put them on their feet and, believing that, as we do, it is a perfectly ordinary commercial operation.
If the division of road and rail is in the ultimate interests of the railways, we believe it is also in the interests of road transport. I am not going this afternoon to make an attack on British Road Services. Personally, I think they have done a good job; they have worked hard to deliver the goods in every sense of the term. But the result of a concentration of power inside that vast corporation—indeed, perhaps that was the aim of some of those who conceived the amalgamation which occurred—has been, I believe, more and more to kill perfectly legitimate and stimulating competition from private enterprise. If the aim of the Act of the late Government had been merely to set up British Transport Services and allow throughout the whole range the fullest competition with it, I do not believe the opposition to that operation would have been nearly as strong as it was. But we believe, especially for an industry which is as individualist as road transport, where the demands of customers are so infinitely varied and where the individual operator should be as free as possible to satisfy those demands, the whole conception of a national monopoly for long-distance road transport is entirely unsound. It is,

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as I see it, the classic case where competition should be given a fair chance. For what, after all, is competition? In other words it is the desire to excel, and we feel that the desire to excel should be encouraged. While, indeed, it may well take some little time, I fully agree, for industry to settle down in its new conditions, I believe there are already signs that the fresh air of competition is operating, and that will mean better service for the customer.
I do not want to misrepresent the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, and I hope he will interrupt me if he thinks I am doing so, but he suggested that there was a lack of balance in the expenditure on road and rail. He said: "Why spend £1,200 million on rail and only £147 million on road?" That is a perfectly fair question. The answer, which of course has already been given and to which he has referred, is that the difference there is more apparent than real. Out of the £1,200 million, £600 million—as I think has already been said; I am not sure that the noble Lord did not say it himself—is in any case to be spent on maintenance, and it would be spent, even if no scheme were in operation. Of the remaining £600 million, £400 million is to be spent on such things as renewal of rolling stock; and only £200 million is to be spent on signalling and track. This is to be compared with the £147 million which is to be spent in four years, or authorised to be spent in four years, on the roads; and, of course, in the case of the railways, there is a much longer period involved.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth said, as I understood it, that there was no analogy between the expenditure on road and the expenditure on rail. I do not agree. Both road and rail are used by the community. He said the roads were used by the whole community. Both road and rail are used by the whole community; they are used for travelling and for the carriage of goods. Nor, in my view, can you expect to strike a fair balance between the two. It is not one of those things of which you can say, "We are spending £100 million on rail and therefore, we must spend £100 million on roads." You cannot work out the development of these great services in that way. What is relevant, and the only
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thing which is relevant, is what is required to serve the interests of the community; and if, in fact, rather more is wanted in one case than in the other, I do not think that that would be an argument against spending that larger sum.
In his final passages the noble Lord opposite contended strongly that, whether the 1953 Act was right or wrong, its usefulness was new exhausted. He argued that there was no more to be achieved in the way of denationalisation of road transport—at least, so I understood him. He argued that the attempt to dispose of the assets had largely failed, and that the Government had much better accept the position and not attempt a further dispersal. I think that was the gist of his argument. If he will forgive me, I do not propose to answer that important argument myself at length; I am going to leave that to my noble friend Lord Hawke, who will develop it in more detail. I will only say this: that I believe it is at present far too early to accept that melancholy conclusion. I understand that that, too, is the view of my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport, who is not dissatisfied (so he tells me) with the progress that has been made. With regard to these large units, which I think were worrying the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, more than anything else, I would point out that not the same real attempt has yet been made to dispose of them as has been the case with small units. I am not going to prophesy about the future (I am much too old a hand to do that), but I think it is premature at the present time to draw the conclusions which the noble Lord has drawn.
I hope the House will now allow me to turn to the future, which is the principal subject upon which I wish to speak. First, I should like to say something about the railways. The scheme for the reorganisation of the railways was, as the House knows, fully debated by your Lordships on November 2, and was the subject of an Affirmative Resolution. Today, therefore, I am only going, quite briefly, to summarise the main features of the scheme. I may mention that all six of the Area Boards which were appointed under the scheme have now begun their work, as from February 1. Each board will have a wide measure of autonomy. I think the lists of members published by the Commission, which some of your

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Lordships may have seen, fully justify the assurances given by them and by the Government as to the quality of the membership.
Having said that, I come to the British Transport Commission's scheme for the modernisation of the railways, to which the noble Lord opposite referred. This plan, which was published on January 24, just over one and a half months ago, has been fully debated in another place, and I believe that my noble friend Lord Falmouth has put down a Motion on the subject. As your Lordships know, and as was apparent from the speech to which we have just listened, that plan is extremely far-reaching; it involves a total investment of some £1,200 million during the next fifteen years. As I have explained, that is, as it were, £600 million for new works and £600 million for maintenance that would have been needed in any case. The aim is to produce a thoroughly modern railway system to meet the traffic requirements of to-day and the foreseeable future. The plan recognises that for certain classes of traffic, like bulk goods and coal, the railways will remain the best form of transport, and it aims to develop this traffic as fully as it can on the most economical basis. It recognises equally, as does the noble Lord opposite, that certain other types of traffic can no longer be carried so efficiently by rail as by other means. The plan concentrates particularly on freight services and it aims, by speeding up movement and reducing costs, to attract some of the freight traffic which is now contributing to the congestion on the roads and therefore to strike a balance between the two methods of transport.
Its main features, as most noble Lords know, are: first, track and signalling improvements to make higher speeds possible; second, the progressive elimination of steam motive power and its replacement by electric or diesel traction; third, the modernisation of rolling stock, passenger stations, and goods depôts; fourth, a drastic remodelling of freight services and the fitting of continuous brakes to all wagons, which I understand will lead to both faster and smoother services, more intensive use of wagons and less interference with the speed of passenger services; and fifth, a number of smaller items which include improvements
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to ports used by steam packet services, mechanisation of office equipment, staff welfare, research and matters of that kind. I ought to emphasise that the plan as now formulated is essentially an outline plan. It does not attempt to specify particular regional improvements in detail, except for certain electrification schemes around London and Glasgow, in the Southern Region, and on one or two main lines. But that does not mean that areas which are outside that electrification area are going to be excluded from any forms of modernisation; they will be dealt with by the progressive introduction of diesel trains, which form an integral part of the scheme. The Commission intend to work out detailed projects in consultation with the Area Boards, who will be in the best position to advise on local needs.
I do not want to mislead the House into thinking that all this can be done at once. The plan is so extensive that I gather that it must take at least five years before it is fully under way. There are many reasons for this, and I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is well aware of them. For one thing, in the case of the electrification schemes the vast size of the engineering works required will involve a long period of engineering planning and preliminary work. And on the maintenance side, the staff will have to be trained in the business of servicing diesel and electric locomotives, which, I am told, although I have no practical experience, are far more complicated and require a higher degree of specialisation in the maintenance staff than the steam locomotive needs. Orders for this vast quantity of new equipment will also have to be placed with the industry, and the Commission's entire railway organisation will have to be adapted to cope with the new developments. That, of course, involves a considerable amount of preliminary work before the scheme gets into its full swing.
There is one other very important matter about which I think I ought to say a word before I pass to the question of roads. It concerns the railway merchandise charges scheme, which I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, mentioned in his speech. I do not complain of that, because he had a lot to say, and this is so vast a subject that he could not cover everything. As your Lordships will know, the Transport

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Act, 1953, provided for a change in the railways charging powers; but I think that the full importance of that change for the future of the railways has not even yet been quite fully appreciated. As we all know, the main contention of the railways in the past has been that they have been unfairly handicapped in competing with road transport for goods traffic by the very complicated and rigid statutory control of the charges that they are allowed to make. We have heard that, I suppose, a hundred times in this House, and, as we all know, there is a great deal of substance in that contention.
Therefore, to put the railways in a position to meet the intensified road competition which was bound to result from the 1953 Act, that Act itself included provisions designed to give a much greater flexibility to railway merchandise charges. Certain old restrictions, some of which dated back to the early years of the last century, to the very beginning of the railway system—the obligation to charge equally in like circumstances and to refrain from giving undue preference, and, I understand, a more recent restriction on the power to agree charges with individual traders—have all been swept away by that Act, and other restrictions will go when the new railway merchandise charges scheme comes into operation. At present, as your Lordships know, the railways have standard charges below which they cannot charge except as provided in the Railways Act, 1921. Under the new charges scheme, however, they will in general be subject to maximum charges only and will have complete discretion as to the charges they make beneath those ceilings.
That is a fundamental and very important change. But it is not the only one. At present, as noble Lords know, they have to publish not only their standard charges but also every exceptional rate which they grant below the standard. Under the new scheme only the maximum charges will have to be published. As a result, the railways will no longer be put in the unsatisfactory and extremely invidious position that their charges are known to their competitors while the charges of their competitors are not known to them. The Act does, however, provide certain protections for users of the railways—for traders whose traffic is tied to rail, and who consider that the charges
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which they are required to pay are unreasonable or unfair—and for coastal shipping, canal interests, and harbour authorities who consider that the charges made by the railways place them at an undue or unfair disadvantage in competition, or are inadequate, having regard to costs.
Having completed a draft of a charges scheme, the Transport Commission began informal consultations with various interested bodies in December last. They now hope to submit a draft scheme to the Transport Tribunal very soon. Her Majesty's Government attach great importance—as I am sure do all noble Lords—to the greater freedom which the railways will have in the future as regards merchandise charges. We believe that the new scheme will give them something they have never had before. They will be able to conduct their business as a commercial undertaking in a competitive market. It will also, we are confident, help them to attract the greatest volume of traffic suitable to rail transport, while the traders, on their side, will got not only the advantages of competition but also the benefits which will flow from prosperous and up-to-date railways. In short, we believe that if the Commission and the trade unions work together in harmony for the common advantage, a new era of prosperity should open for the railways. But, of course, nothing that this or any other Government can do for the railways will, by itself, give the country the up-to-date transport system which we all wish it to have.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in his Motion, quite rightly links rail and road. I entirely agree that to-day the roads are, in their own way, just as important as the railways—and just as out of date. It is of no use to try to apportion blame for this state of affairs. The truth is, as noble Lords will know, that during the last forty years during which mechanised road transport has come into its own this country has been gravely impoverished by two great wars and has been limited in the amounts it could spend on anything, so that, by modern standards, both road and rail transport have been allowed to get sadly behind the times. Now noble Lords in all parts of the House are agreed that a start must be made with modernising both, if we are to be equal to the new strains likely to be put upon us.

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This applies just as much to roads as to railways. As the noble Lord has said, roads are now a matter of very considerable urgency. I believe the experts calculate that road traffic in this country may be doubled in the next twenty years. In a matter of this kind it is of no use suddenly to try at the last moment to catch up with requirements; that would be like the Foolish Virgins. One cannot operate public policy on such lines. We must begin now to plan and build the essential arteries, if they are to be ready in time. Moreover, there are a number of new problems which do not brook delay and which have to be dealt with as rapidly as possible. There is, for instance, the problem of abnormal loads, which the House discussed on the Road Traffic Bill. As some noble Lords then suggested, there may be some ways of reducing that particular nuisance, even under existing conditions; but the basic fact is that traffic, including that traffic, must travel by road. It cannot go by rail, because the tunnels are too small; it cannot go by canal, because the bridges are too low; and I am told that the great difficulty about moving this traffic by sea is the lack of handling facilities in small ports. This traffic must, therefore, go by road, with resultant intolerable interference and inconvenience to other users of the highways. Briefly, that is the basis of the road plan of Her Majesty's Government.
As a first stage, road improvement schemes will cost £147 million. That is the sum which will be authorised by the Exchequer over the first four years of the scheme. It is to be hoped that the scheme will not stop at the end of four years, and that this period will be the first four years of a continuing process. The figure of £147 million excludes expenditure on some very large projects of national importance, including, for instance, the question of the crossing of the Firth of Forth by bridge or by tube, to which the noble Lord referred, and the cost of much of the great arteries which are to be built. I use the term "arteries" because such terms as "trunk roads" and "arterial roads" mean something quite different; and if one said "motor-ways" that might suggest road ways to be used largely by very rich people driving very large cars.
These arteries, which will form the basis of the Government plan, will start with the main artery from London to
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Rugby which, broadly, will follow the line of the present Watling Street. There will be an eastern arm, going north-east into Yorkshire, and a western arm, which is to go from Birmingham, by a spur to the north, through the Potteries and right through Lancashire to Preston. No doubt, as the schemes develops further, roads of that type can be added. These great arteries will be, and must be, of the most modern type, based on experience gained not only here but in other countries; otherwise, as the noble Lord has said, they will be behind the times almost before they are completed. They must be double-track, which I believe is now technically called "dual carriageway," with lanes of adequate width within each carriageway, and supplied with fly-overs and under-passes wherever necessary. The purpose of these arteries, which will be the main basic roadways of the country, will be to allow free traffic, both for goods and passengers, between the main industrial areas of the Midlands and the North and London. Secondly, within this framework of arteries there will be expenditure on subsidiary roads, which will be improved with money, some of which will be drawn from the £147 million and some from local authorities in the areas concerned. I gather that for the first four years this latter will be in the nature of £30 million.
I have tried to give a very brief and bald description to inform your Lordships of the nature and purpose of the road plan of Her Majesty's Government. A start will be made with the London to Rugby portion. The Rugby to Yorkshire and Birmingham trunks portion will come later. I believe that the early completion of at least one artery of the type which I have described is essential, for I feel that it will, apart from any other result, transform the outlook of the public and of local authorities on the standard of roads necessary to-day in a great industrial country like ours, and in that way colour all future planning. At the same time as this great construction is going forward, work will be continuing on subsidiary roads, especially in dealing with black spots, widening bridges and similar improvements.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, asked who was to co-ordinate policy between roads and railways. The noble Lord properly stresses the vital importance of the question, "Who is to

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do it?" The answer is quite a simple one: it must be done by my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport. It is for him to approve the proposals which will be put forward by the British Transport Commission. It is for him to ensure that the road plans for which he is responsible will fit in with the plans of the railways. I do not see why there should be any great difficulty about this. These two sets of plans are to be regarded by him, and by everyone else, as complementary, and not conflicting. There will be certain types of traffic, like coal, which will clearly continue to be carried by the railways—that is far and away the most convenient way by which that particular traffic can be carried. There are certain other types which will clearly be carried by the roads. Between these two extremes there will be an infinite number of gradations—types of traffic over which there will no doubt be a measure of healthy competition which will gradually sort itself out. I should have thought that in this bustling, seething, modern world there is plenty of room for both, especially when the railways are modernised and have greater freedom over their rates charges.
My Lords, in the remarks which I have addressed to you to-day I have tried to sketch in the main features of the Government's road and rail policy. I am afraid that I have spoken far too long, and yet I have only just touched, as the noble Lord knows, upon the fringe of this vast subject. I would, if I may, say this in conclusion—and I say it in a far from controversial spirit. There are, no doubt, aspects of our plan with which not everyone will agree; but I hope very much that this question of road and rail will never be regarded as purely a Party problem. I would remind the House that we who hotly opposed the nationalisation of the railways now accent the position, and we are solely concerned with making the nationalised railways work and in modifying features which have not stood up to practical experience. I hope that, equally, noble Lords who have opposed denationalisation of road transport will show the same spirit and will co-operate with us in making our roads and our road transport the best in the world.
4.3 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, in the first place I should like to add my congratulations to those which have already
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been tendered to the British Transport Commission on the full and far-seeing plan which they have produced for the reorganisation of the railways. I think it has been completed in a remarkably short time, and it covers every aspect of railway planning and operation. I suggest that the main point in the scheme is whether it is financially sound, and sound enough for Her Majesty's Government to give it their blessing and help it on its way. At first sight, I would say that the scheme is quite feasible, provided that there is no great financial upheaval in the country during the next fifteen years.
I do not wart to anticipate the debate which will no doubt take place on the Transport (Borrowing Powers) Bill, which will shortly come before your Lordships, but I should like to say how delighted I am to find that the Commission do not intend to rely on the Exchequer for a subsidy and are determined to stand on their own feet. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who has unfortunately had to leave the Chamber, has said that there is a hidden subsidy. But surely it is usual for this form of guarantee to be given by the Treasury to every other similar authority which wishes to raise a loan, provided of course, as the noble Marquess has pointed out, that their scheme is a sound and a fair one. No doubt, Her Majesty's Government will examine this scheme in greater detail than they have yet had time to do, and will make recommendations as they consider necessary.
I have listened very carefully to the views put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. He has suggested that the proposed expenditure on the railways is out of all proportion to that which has been proposed for the roads. I think the noble Marquess has shown very clearly that the railway figures take into account and include such items as locomotives and rolling stock, to which there is no equivalent in road expenditure, since vehicles, of course, are provided from quite a different source. Looked at in this light, I suggest that the railway figures are not so disproportioned as one might suppose. There is no doubt that both road and rail have been starved of capital for a number of years, and this is the first occasion for a very long time that a Government have had the courage

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to propose a proper investment in both forms of transport.
I fully appreciate the proposals of Her Majesty's Government to spend considerable sums of money on the modernisation and building of new roads, but I am not quite happy about the continuity of these plans. I should like to see the establishment of a Highway Authority which would take over the highways section of the Ministry of Transport, and have full powers to raise loans and to manage its finances in the same way as the Transport Commission or any other authority. There is nothing new about this idea. Some of your Lordships will no doubt recall the old Road Board, which was set up as long ago as 1910, under the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909. This Act provided that for the purpose of constructing new roads, and also for the acquisition of land for that purpose, the Board could raise money by loan. The Road Board did great service to the country in providing and planning new roads such as the Great West Road, the Croydon Bypass and many others. In fact, the Road Board was the first national authority for roads in England and Wales since the days of the Romans; and I suggest that it is high time we had another Road Board responsible for the highways of Britain.
Your Lordships will recall that the Road Board remained in being for, I think, some nine years, but it had a great uphill fight against Parliament and the Treasury. In those days Parliament was not accustomed to national authorities controlling their own finances, and, in addition, the pressure of local authorities forced the Board to look at the problem through local eyes instead of through national eyes. In the end, in 1919, the Road Board ceased to function, and the Treasury finally resumed control of the proceeds of motor taxes and the funds of the Road Board. I suggest that in these enlightened days the position is quite different, and we are accustomed to an authority having control of its finances. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will seriously consider the setting up of a Highway Authority on modern lines which will give the country the continuity of road development that is so urgently needed. It is interesting to note that the new ten-year road programme in the
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United States is likely to be financed by I the issue of 30-year bonds, repayable from sales taxes on petrol and oil.
I should also like to take this opportunity of congratulating Her Majesty's Government on the strong line they have taken in the denationalisation of road transport. In spite of what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, it may yet be too early to see what will be the final result and how many vehicles or groups of British Road Services will remain unsold in accordance with the 1953 Act. Lord Lucas of Chilworth has said that no large units have been sold—I am sorry that he is not in the House at the moment. If he would turn to page 5 of the third report of the Road Haulage Disposal Board he would find there some very interesting figures showing sales of units so far. There have been sold: 26 units of 428 vehicles; 28 units of 652 vehicles, 7 units of 232 vehicles—and so on. Surely this is going a long way in the sale of large units.
I understand, however, that the minds of Her Majesty's Government are not closed to the possibility of setting up joint companies between the Commission and private enterprise for road haulage. Your Lordships are aware of the successful partnership which already exists between the Commission and certain bus companies. I cannot help feeling that a furtherance of this principle in road haulage might well be acceptable to both sides of the House, and might perhaps, once and for all, remove the whole matter from the field of Party politics. It has been suggested in some quarters that if the principles of the 1947 Act had been continued, the British Road Services would have been able to subsidise the railways. Surely this would mean that the wages of the workers in road haulage would be subsidising the wages of the railway workers. I cannot believe that that is the view of noble Lords opposite; it could not be.
Then we have that all-embracing word "co-ordination" creeping in from time to time. Sometimes it is coupled with the word, "integration." I suggest that what these words really mean is putting into a single hand and under a single control all the alternative forms of transport. Then it would be possible to direct traffic from one form of transport to another; to compel traders to send their goods by a less economic method, and perhaps

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a more expensive method than they would otherwise use. I need hardly add that we on this side of the House are strongly opposed to any form of co-ordination or integration that has this meaning. I think that the people who are putting forward these ideas have not fully understood their implications. I feel sure that when the new railway scheme has had time to take effect, not only by the re-equipment, but also by the freedom to quote competitive rates with road haulage, we shall see the railways paying their way and the country in possession of an efficient transport system.
4.12 p.m.
VISCOUNT FALMOUTH: My Lords, the Motion which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has put down places me in a considerable difficulty, because I had put down a Motion drawing attention to the Government Report on the railway system. As the noble Lord's Motion introduces both road and rail systems. I think it would save your Lordships' time if I took railway transport policy as that part of the subject with which I particularly want to deal this afternoon. I should like to add my tribute to the courage of Her Majesty's Government in formulating and introducing this new programme for the railways. I feel that the railways have been seriously neglected both by the Labour Party and by my own Party for too long a time. The railways are a vital system, and therefore the inefficiency of the railway system would seriously affect the whole economic position of the country.
I approach this problem from a definite point of view: that the railway system gives us by far the best long-distance passenger transport service that it is possible for us to have at the present time and, indeed, that we can foresee for a great many years in the future. It also appears to me to be the only way in which we can deal with dense surburban traffic and with the carriage of bulk goods in vast quantities. For such things as coal and minerals there is no other system available which can handle the traffic presented. Of course there is a problem over what I might call common merchandise and short-distance passenger traffic. For these there is great competition between rail and road. No doubt that will continue for many years to come, but I feel that if only we could put the railways upon a proper footing a great deal of the traffic
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which we now see on the roads would come back to the railways, where it should be.
Our railway system is a very old organisation: it was laid out some 120 years ago, when economic conditions were entirely different from those in which we find ourselves to-day. It is amazing to consider that what we might look upon as an antiquated system is still serving such a useful purpose without having vast sums of money to spend in order to modernise the whole lay-out. Looking at the railway system as we see it, an ordinary traveller like myself feels that the freight complex of our railway system is by no means up to date. I am glad to see that the Report fully realises this, and suggests that considerable sums of money should be spent—very wisely, as I think—on what our American friends would call "re-vamping" our freight system. The small wayside goods station, with a slow pick-up goods train getting in the way of everything else, is entirely out of date, to my mind. It is high time we had big central goods distribution stations served by express goods trains, running from different central distributing stations which would be equipped with modern handling facilities whereby traffic would be put on the road vehicles and on the railway wagons by mechanical means. I am certain that there is a big field in this direction for developing container traffic. This requires heavy machinery, in the shape of cranes and so on, to deal with it efficiently. We have only to see what is going on in Holland to-day, where a great deal of the coal traffic is being handled by containers, to realise what a big future lies in developing a system of this kind in this country.
I am glad to see that the Report encourages doing away with certain marshalling yards and the establishment of others. As I said just now, the railway system is 120 years old, and a great many points of distribution have changed in that time. I feel that a proper redistribution of marshalling yards, and bringing them up to date by putting wireless on the locomotives, giving them "humps" to shunt the trucks and equipping them with rail brakes—all expensive items, but very necessary if we are to have a really efficient system—would be of great benefit. But what must strike the ordinary traveller to-day more than anything else, I think, is the antiquated goods wagons on

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British Railways. Except that they are now made of steel, I cannot believe that there has been much change from the time of George Stephenson.
This question of antiquated goods rolling stock raises an immense problem. There are over one million of these wagons in existence. If all of them were put together the national goods train would stretch for 4,000 miles, and as we have only 20,000 route miles of railway, that gives some idea of the size of the problem with which we are faced. We cannot efficiently work our railway system to-day unless we have continuous brakes on our goods vehicles. I am certain that that is an essential factor to any modernisation that is to take place, and I welcome the statement in the Report that one of the most important things we are going to consider is the question of continuous automatic brakes on goods vehicles. To my mind, it is no use spending, vast sums of money on electrification or increasing the power of the haulage unit, whether steam or whether diesel electric, one of the main objects of which is to increase the speed of your trains, unless you are able to stop your trains. What one would like to see would be the railway system running, say, at speeds of 80 m.p.h. for passenger trains and 50 m.p.h. for goods trains. But this you cannot possibly do, because at the moment you cannot stop your goods trains. Therefore, before we do anything else, I am certain that we must Spend a big sum of money—and it really is a large sum of money—in braking goods vehicles by continuous automatic brakes.
This leads on to another difficulty: that of the coupling. If you are going to have continuous automatic brakes, you must have what is known as the solid coupling between your vehicles. At the present time there is the three link chain which is an antiquated system but is very handy for use in marshalling yards, since the shunter can use the shunter's pole to lift the link over the hook. As I say, you must have solid couplings. The present system in this country, and in Europe generally, of the screw-type coupling, which means that the shunter must go between the vehicles in order to couple up the vehicles, is not very satisfactory, but it is the only one available. I hope that the Government will leave no stone unturned to try and develop some sort
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of automatic coupler suitable to the conditions prevailing in this country. When we are all so clever that we can talk about generating electrical energy from the atom, it is strange to think we are unable to solve a relatively simple mechanical problem of this kind. I hope the Government and the British Transport Commission will do everything they can to encourage this most important development, which will mean so much to the railway system of the country.
I welcome, also, the statement in the Report dealing with the importance of our signalling system. That as a whole has been lagging behind, again due to the want of sufficient finance to enable the many desirable changes to be brought about. But when today it is common practice in certain countries to operate a pair of points fifty miles away from the signal box, one realises the potentialities that are available for a modern signalling system to be fully developed in this country. Another matter to which the Report refers is the layout of the tracks. There, again, much money must be spent on improving tracks in the different parts of the country. A bad example is the position of a station like Peterborough. Peterborough, as your Lordships know, is on the main line to the North, yet it is so badly laid out that all the fast trains are slowed down in passing Peterborough, for reasons which could easily be resolved if sufficient money were available to recondition the layout of the lines.
What has created most interest amongst the engineering world is the future position of the traction unit in this country. When we read the Report, we see that in the view of the British Transport Commission the steam locomotive is on the way out. I am very old-fashioned, I am afraid, and I view this with great sorrow, because this fine piece of mechanism, which has served us so well in the past and with which British engineers have been so closely associated, is now coming to its end, very much in the same way as the poor old horse has been ousted from the farm by the agricultural tractor. The opponents of the steam locomotive quite rightly point out that it consumes a lot of high-grade coal, which we can ill afford to use for this purpose at the present time. Another fault is that it has to spend a large amount of its time in the sheds being conditioned for the next day's service. Moreover, as everybody

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knows, its thermal efficiency is low, only about 7 per cent. of the energy in the coal being used at the draw-bar of the train. With all these serious defects, it is difficult now to maintain that the steam locomotive provides the best means of hauling the trains to-day or in the immediate future. It has, of course, the great merit that it is considerably cheaper to build than the diesel locomotive, and it is simpler to work. But, in spite of those two quite important factors, I think there is no doubt that we shall see few new steam locomotives being built in this country.
When we look at the position in the United States, we see that an amazing change has taken place in the matter of transport units there. No steam locomotives are being built in the United States to-day, other than for export; and in the last twenty years about 75 per cent. of locomotives in the United States have been changed over to diesel electric. The great claim for this particular type of prime mover is its efficiency and its availability. A diesel locomotive will hook on to a train at Chicago and carry that same train right across to San Francisco or Los Angeles, turn round there, and in five hours, after it has been refuelled and looked over, be on its way back to Chicago on its 2,000 mile run, a performance which is quite unheard of in the history of the steam locomotive.
But although in the United States they have the opportunity of utilising the enormous availability of the diesel locomotive, we have not the same opportunity in this country; obviously our hauls are much shorter and the conditions generally are entirely different. At the same time, however, I am confident that if we revised our timetables to suit the working of this new type of machine, we should be able, if not to get the full availability, at least to make a good deal more use of it than we can at the present moment. The advantage of this will be that, although the diesel locomotive costs twice as much as the steam locomotive, with its increased availability we should need to use considerably fewer to perform the services which are being carried out to-day. There is one other field in which the diesel electric has a great advantage, and that is as a shunter. In the big goods yards the locomotives can be worked twenty-four hours a day. I am glad to see that that is fully realised by the British
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Transport Commission, who are, I understand, about to adopt the diesel electric shunter in a much bigger way than it has been adopted hitherto.
The Report talks about the electrification of our main lines. Electrification is undoubtedly an ideal which we should all like to see, but it is extremely expensive, especially in a country like ours, which is of such an undulating character. There are over 60,000 bridges in this country—I do not mean that they are all over bridges; this figure includes both over and under bridges: so we can say there are probably about 30,000 under bridges, a great majority of which have to be modified in order to make them available for the increased loading gauge required to take the pantograph of electric locomotives. There are over 1,000 tunnels. What I might call the "national tunnel" is 300 miles long, which again gives some idea of the difficulties which have to be faced with the wholesale policy of electrification.
In fact, I agree with the Report that it is quite impossible for wholesale electrification to be carried out. It would be quite uneconomic. There are certain tracks in the country, where there is a high density of traffic, where it might be possible to get some advantage; but it is of no use, I maintain, to carry out vastly expensive schemes of this kind until continuous brakes have been fitted to goods wagons, so that goods trains can be run at 50 or 60 m.p.h. and can thus take advantage of the expense incurred in electrifying the system. I hope that this scheme will go forward, but that it will go forward in a series of stages. It is necessary to win one position, then the next, and so on; and the final development should be the electrification of some of these main lines—but only where traffic density is very high. Of course, the electrification of the dense suburban areas in many parts of the country is long overdue, and we may hope, as I see the Report hopes, to see a big development of this kind in the not too distant future.
There is one other point in this Report which gives me some anxiety, and that is the question of staff. The question of the higher staff of all these nationalised industries is becoming an increasingly great difficulty. The railways talk about standardisation, and all these nationalised industries are praising standardisation. We cannot expect brilliant young men

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to want to go into an industry which makes standardisation one of its chief objectives. If the railways are going to get really good men, they must be given some chance of exercising their individuality and not have to accept a standard practice; they must be able to develop ideas of their own. Throughout the nationalised industries this is becoming more and more a serious problem. I think one of the tragic things to-day is to attend one of the meetings of one of our great technical institutions and to realise that a great many of the men sitting round are technicians belonging to one national organisation and serving one master which has adopted a standard policy, whereas in the old days they would have expressed their views on different technical problems—say the type of electrification that should be adopted and so on. We are getting more and more into the position of having a standard policy which cannot be departed from. I am certain that we shall never get the best brains of this country into the nationalised industries unless we can in some way induce them to realise that individuality does count, and that standardisation, although important (and we all admit that it is important, up to a certain stage), is not the whole object of the organisation, and that something should be left on which the individual engineer or technician can express his own individuality.
In general, I welcome this Report. It shows that the Government really do intend to recondition this important part of our national economy. I sincerely hope that the plan will be put into force, not at once but steadily and increasingly, so that, as I say, we can go forward from one stage to another, each stage reaping the advantage of what has gone before.
4.35 p.m.
LORD HURCOMB: My Lords, I hope that it will still be possible to deal with the technical aspects of the railway plan, either on the Motion standing in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Falmouth, or on the Transport (Borrowing Powers) Bill when it comes before your Lordships' House, because there are many aspects of that plan which, though technical, are yet fraught with much public significance. This afternoon it is not possible to argue or debate whether dieselisation or
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electrification, or a combination of both, is the right course to pursue, and many other similar problems arise out of the plan. I will merely say at once that I am in general agreement with the plan, embodying as it does many proposals which have long been under careful investigation, and taking decisions which the time is ripe, and indeed, over-ripe, to take.
It is true that the statement says that it should be understood that, behind this brief presentation of the plan, there lies a mass of detailed study. But merely left at that, I think the statement does somewhat less than justice to the amount of investigation and, indeed, decision which was taken by the old Railway Executive and the British Transport Commission in the earlier years of their existence. I have refreshed my memory on one or two points, and I find that in April, 1948, I wrote to the then Chairman of the Railway Executive and said:
"It seems to me that the question of the future form of traction—whether it be steam, electricity, diesel-electric, diesel-mechanical or gas turbine—is probably the most important long-term problem facing the railways today …"
I emphasised the amount of knowledge and experience that we had in various countries and which our own railway experts had been able to study in regard to some of these alternatives. I said, therefore, that
"as regards steam, electricity and diesel-electric the purely engineering and technical questions can be answered already from actual experience."
For the gas turbine and the diesel-mechanical, further experiment was necessary.
To cut a long story short, I invited the Railway Executive then to set up a committee to study all these matters and to report to the Commission as soon as they could: as I put it, no longer, in regard to diesel engines, to go on
"experimenting as though there were no large fund of technical knowledge and experience upon which to draw, and as though our engineers had not been studying the characteristics (as I assume they have been doing) of this form of traction for the past twenty years."
The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, is not here, but in point of fact the London and North Eastern Railway had already prepared a scheme for dieselisation of some of their services even before nationalisation. I asked whether

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that scheme had been shelved and if so on what grounds. I mention that merely to show that, within a few months of the formation of the British Transport Commission, we directed an intensive study of the various forms of traction, both from the technical and economic point of view. We did not get that report until the end of 1951, and with the change of Government everything went, of course, into the melting-pot.
Then there are other questions, such as electrification. The general scheme of electrification was indicated some years ago: to complete the electrification of South-East England where, rightly or wrongly—and probably wrongly—we are committed to the third-rail method Nevertheless, we thought it right, first, to survey the technical aspects of electrification and review the standardisation of the voltages which were to be adopted. In that inquiry we had the assistance of the best expert outside railways in the country, the late Mr. Frank Lydall. That was a necessary preliminary to any decision on whether to electrify or not. As your Lordships know, a start was made from Liverpool Street to Shenfield, and now I am glad to see that the work to carry out the electrification of the line from Liverpool Street to Chelmsford is already going on—and it is hoped to spread further.
The diesel shunting engine was selected some years ago as the right instrument for the shunting yards. That was settled policy. As for the standard mineral wagon, which the statement says was "recently adopted," it is three years ago since I wrote to the National Coal Board and other great users saying that that would be the standard mineral wagon of the future, but I am bound to say there was no enthusiasm for its introduction on the commercial side of the railways. I must infer from this Report that the Commission have told them what they are to do, without any mistake, because that is undoubtedly one of the great opportunities for economy. I do not want to labour those points. I make them only lest it might be thought, from some of the things that have been said in various debates, that during the five or six years of their existence the old Rail-way Executive and their technical and professional officers gave no thought to
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the future. In truth, under the Commission's constant encouragement, not to say prodding, they gave it much.
I will turn now to the aspects of Government policy which have emerged from recent discussions. First, there is the question of subsidy. Her Majesty's Government have made it plain that they have no intention of subsidising the Transport Commission. There is nothing new in that, because the principle was fundamental to the 1947 Act, which, by spreading the net, if you like, as wide as possible, rather fortified the feasibility of adhering to that policy and did not weaken it. I have said publicly on this question that subsidy is open, first of all, to the objection that a subsidised service is bound to be vulnerable to demands which ought, on merits, to be resisted. I am not thinking only or primarily of the staff, but of local interests, sectional interests and interests of all kinds, and the various forms of public and political pressure which can be brought to bear. In the second place, a subsidy removes the stimulus to efficiency and economy which the consciousness of having to pay their way imposes on the whole staff, from the top management downwards, Lastly—a point of no less importance—in my view, it exposes an undertaking to all sorts of hampering conditions and interferences which the subsidising authority would impose in the vain hope of avoiding the other two evils to which I have just made reference.
I do not say that there are no conceivable cases and no special circumstances which could be put forward as justifying relief from particular burdens; but even in the aggregate that will not amount to putting the situation, if it has once got out of hand, right again. The general objections to subsidy seem to me to remain.
Those views were not always popular in all quarters, as your Lordships can imagine, but I never shrank from stating them when I thought it necessary or salutary to do so. There is, fortunately, one means of financial assistance to which these objections do not apply. I am not altogether clear that I understand just what the attitude of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is on that point. It seems to me not open to objection to use public credit to guarantee the interest

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and principal of a nationalised undertaking. In theory, it might be said to be a form of assistance which private industry does not get.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Hear, hear!
LORD HURCOMB: But I think that, when considering a national undertaking of this order, that is only a theory, and the use of public credit does not bring with it the mischiefs which a real subsidy in other forms would undoubtedly carry. Therefore, I am glad that the present Government have again emphatically reaffirmed that principle of the 1947 Act.
But the negative decision not to sub-sidise carries with it, inevitably, a positive one; and that is that the Commission must be free to adjust their charges to meet increased costs. That has been again stated and admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, subject, as he put it, to proper safeguards. The safeguard he specified was the very proper one that the Commission must show that they have done everything they can to reduce expenditure and to avoid deficits. That is a challenge which the Commission always were ready to meet, and I am sure always will be ready to meet. They ought to meet it in the witness-box before the impartial Transport Tribunal, where their critics can also be put in the witness-box and subjected to cross-examination. All I would ask on that is whether the Commission's right, which is also a duty, to exercise the power of adjusting their charges, is to be left to them to exercise, in future, free from Government intervention or Government pressure.
The third point, which I am glad to see has been emphatically reaffirmed, is that the Commission must be free to raise the capital they need for their undertaking. All through the first six years of their existence the Commission were severely handicapped by the way in which their power to spend capital was rationed; and that extended not only to what is ordinarily understood to be capital, in the shape of new works and developments, but also to the greater part of the renewals of wasting assets. I also endorse entirely what is said in the statement, that it is very bad for the morale of the staff to feel that they are in a
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stagnating, if not a deteriorating, undertaking. Not only is that bad for the staff as a whole, but it is particularly bad for the engineers and the technical people, who get very tired of making paper plans which they know are not going to be carried into fruition. I welcome, therefore, the realisation, which has come late in the day, of the real needs of railway transport for modernisation of its equipment.
I now come to what is really the crucial question, of which it seems to me too little has been asked—and that is, how are the finances going to stand? So far as the Commission are concerned, they have no alternative but to act, to renew and to develop their undertaking. It would be absurd to go on renewing like with like and not to take full advantage of the opportunities for substituting a better type of equipment which the needs of the times demand and technical progress has made possible. I have no doubt that when these various steps are carried out, albeit in stages, there will be great savings and improvements in receipts. But I have had a hand in a good many five-year and other periodical programmes such as Departments like to formulate and all Governments are fond of formulating, or requiring to be formulated, and producing at convenient moments which do not always turn out to be the right moment because events so often supervene to prevent their execution. I think the timetable is optimistic for, amongst others, the reasons which the noble Viscount, Lord Falmouth, gave. There will be lags in execution and there will be deferments of benefits.
Nevertheless, let us assume that the estimates are realised. On the receipts side, at any rate, the commercial officers of the railways will have an apparatus which they have never had before, as a result of the costing investigations which we entrusted some years ago to a small but able staff and which rapidly threw startling light upon some obscure places. I am sure the commercial officers of the railway will, in future, be able to see much more clearly than they have ever been able to see in the past what traffic it is worth while to carry and what they had better let go. As your Lordships know, the habit of the old commercial officers of the railways was to get the traffic whatever it cost, and, as they were careful not to know what it really cost,

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that slogan sounded highly commercial, although in truth nothing in the world was less commercial.
I was going to ask the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, whether he could elucidate one or two points in the statement which I may have misunderstood. When it is said that receipts will improve, on an average, at the rate of £1 million a year, I believe I am right in thinking that all that means is that someone, looking back twenty years hence, will find the receipts up by £20 million and will say that that was at the average rate of £1 million a year. It does not mean that the receipts are going to get better and better in an arithmetical progression of £1 million a year. If I am wrong on that point I shall be grateful to be put right. A more difficult point is the statement in paragraph 121 of this Memorandum which says that in addition to the cost of the capital and other expenses which are set out, in order
"to put the railway into a healthy state and rectify the present inadequacy of net earnings, the current net traffic receipts ought to be increased by about £25 million."
I do not think that can have anything to do with the £25 million which has been stated to be the deficiency of the railways last year—it must be a mere coincidence of figures, but I am not sure. If it means that from 1970 onwards it would be desirable that the Commission should have a margin of something like £25 million in order to put them in a healthy state, I could not more heartily agree, because it is impossible to expect any body of men to go on running a vast undertaking of this kind with no margin, or merely one of £1 million or £2 million. A small fluctuation in traffic, or small rises in expenditure, are quite enough to upset their budget, and if the Commission are there demanding a margin of this order, then I would strongly support them.
Are your Lordships going to be satisfied with the hope or the prophecy that everything is going to be all right in 1970? As I have said, so far as the Commission is concerned, it has no alternative but to go on improving its undertaking, carrying on as commercially-minded people would, and carrying on with confidence and with some faith in what it is doing. But in relation to public policy, it seems to me that the situation wants looking at more closely, and that it is essential to knew,
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not what the position is going to be in 1970, but what it is going to be at the end of five years—say in 1960. It would be unreasonable to ask the Commission to prognosticate just where they will stand year by year, or how this or that plan will turn out; but I do not think it is unreasonable to say that we should have some sort of idea of where they hope to stand at the end of five years. There is, at the end of 1953, an accumulated deficiency of £27 million, £17 million of which is amortisation of capital. I will not take up your Lordships' time by arguing as to whether that policy is right. It seems to me a most prudent and desirable one if it can be maintained, but one must start from £27 million. What was the deficiency in 1954? That must be pretty well known. At what rate is the deficiency running in the current year, always assuming that fares and charges are not quickly and substantially increased? There are, indeed, further economies which can, and should be made, but they will not bridge gaps of that order.
Therefore I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, four questions: first, what will be the accumulated deficit, not of the railways but of the British Transport Commission as a whole at the end of the present year? Second, to what do they expect the maximum accumulated deficiency to rise? Third, in what year will the lost equilibrium be restored? And again, as I said just now, what will be the position at the end of 1960—five years hence? It seems to me, not as governing the immediate action of the Commission but as a basis of public policy, unrealistic and unwise to let our eyes wander off to the projected rosy-fingered dawns of 1970 or 1974. We ought to look at some shorter period than that, because it is on the earlier trend of the figures that the possibility of maintaining these admirable principles of "No subsidy," and so forth, may come to depend.
As I have said, I support the Government's policy in its principle of no subsidy; freedom to the railways to charge (I hope without interference), and the provision of capital on a generous scale, raised by transport stock issued on the market with a Treasury guarantee. It is fortunate that the economic position of the country is now held to make that possible. I welcome the possibility of spending £1,200 million on the railways in fifteen years—it happens to be the

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same figure as that mentioned in the recent Report on the National Coal Board, and over the same period. I do not suppose that in searching for relationships the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, will find any relationship between those two figures—again, it is a mere coincidence of figures.
I suppose something is to be spent on the canals, something on the docks and a great deal on London Transport. I was disappointed, though not surprised, to hear that the cost of Route C, the new London tube, which, when I urged it upon the then Minister in 1949, was to cost about £30 million, has already gone up to £50 million. Incidentally, I may say that at many periods of their existence, and again perhaps in the future, the cost of the London tubes and railways has had or will have to be paid for partly by the profits on London buses. That is a principle which the noble Lord, Lord Ashfield, discovered some twenty or thirty years ago when both were in private hands.
I agree that the analogy between London and the country at large is not perfect, but then no analogy ever is perfect; but this idea, that you are never to be allowed to balance earnings on one branch of transport against losses on another is one that I cannot accept. They do not always run the same in any one year. I would say, by all means spend all this money; but I cannot persuade myself that intensified competition between the two main branches of transport, one of which, the railways, is publicly-owned, with public obligations that it can never escape, and the other privately-owned and operating under the powerful shelter of a restrictive licensing system, will solve the obstinate transport problem. That problem is not to be so easily conjured away.
I remember that in 1921, Sir Eric Geddes and his railway advisers, the most able and progressive railway men of the time, thought that economies from amalgamation, which were undoubtedly great, technical and organisational improvements, improvements in operation whereby traffic was no longer routed by one's own route but by whichever was the shortest and most economical and so forth, new schemes of charges and other things would save the railway situation,
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then fairly desperate. So great was their confidence, that they refused the amalgamated railway companies power to carry by road any traffic which had not been carried, or was not to be carried, by rail. The railways were to be self-sufficient and self-supporting. How familiar all that sounds after what we have heard recently!
But the situation did not then develop according to the calculations, and it may not do so now. I do not say that the railways cannot be made to pay; but I do urge upon Her Majesty's Government that they should look at facts which can be measured within a reasonable period of years. We should not let our eyes drift away towards the rosy-fingered dawns of twenty or fifty years hence. It happens that my views of the fundamental transport problem coincide with the solution which was adopted by noble Lords who sit on the opposite Benches, and do apt run parallel with the views now held by Her Majesty's Government. I cannot help that. My views were not formed with any political bias or based on any political grounds. I served Ministers of Transport of all three Parties in the State, I hope with equal loyalty, certainly with equal pleasure, for they were always engaged in moving towards a constructive solution.
Neither further reflection nor recent events lead me to alter those views, though I am not going to attempt this afternoon to argue the reasons why I see no objection, and much advantage, in combining the basic public services—that is to say, long-distance haulage, whether by rail or by road—in the same hands. I cannot presume to argue with the noble Marquess who leads this House on the views which he put forward unless they are said to be based on facts, and that I should very respectfully seek to dispute. It was said that road haulage in the hands of the Commission could never earn a profit; and we used to be taunted with failing to do so, not very reasonably as it seemed to me at the time, and certainly prematurely as events have turned out.
The road haulage organisation, which had become highly efficient, in 1953 earned £9 million, of which £6 million remained after meeting the relevant capital charges. I do not know what the

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1954 figure will be, but I shall be surprised if it is much less than £8 million, though from now onwards the figure must greatly diminish as the result of the loss of business. We used to be taunted with not making a high rate of profit, but now that the road haulage organisation does make a high rate of profit, it is blamed for "milking" road traffic in order to assist the railways. I feel that there is some misconception there. A business like road traffic ought to yield a much higher profit margin than a great basic undertaking like the railways. That is quite natural. But why it should be wrong for these profits to accrue to a unified national transport undertaking, I cannot see. If that profit accrues to private people, that seems to be all right. I cannot see that these profits are any more "milky" if they go into the public concern than if they go to private hauliers.
It has been pointed out this afternoon that the road haulage organisation has achieved its results in spite of the competition of C licence holders, which I was always ready to meet. I did not differ from my noble friend Lord Salter on that particular issue, though I fear that I differ from a good many other noble Lords. The road haulage organisation has also had competition from road hauliers for all short-distance hauls and, in the last two or three years, from long-distance hauliers. I feel that one is entitled to suggest—on quite realistic transport grounds—that it is worth while to consider whether it is necessary to carry any further the dissipation of these national assets which are capable, and have been shown to be capable, of earning a good rate, now that the reasonable claims of the small haulier to come back into long-distance haulage (if he wanted to) have amply been met. The small man has had every chance of coming back and I would urge Her Majesty's Government to look at that position again, if only as a means of ensuring the success of the main principles of their policy.
I shall be reminded, as the noble Marquess said I should be, that the object of the 1953 Act was to apply pressure to the railways while helping them to meet competition. An able supporter of the 1953 Act in another place expressed it as
"hurling against the railways competition from roads while lifting certain obligations from them."
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If the interests concerned were private interests who were hurling themselves at each other in commercial rivalry, that might be well enough; but is it so right in relation to a vital public service? It is no longer the railway shareholders, it is the Exchequer and the general taxpayer who will suffer the impact of this rivalry. And the Commission, I suppose, are to enjoy the blast and impact all the more because they will be caught like one of those animals which has to change its shell. They will be crawling out of the old steam locomotive and the obsolete equipment in which they now have to labour, and yet will not have got into their new shell of modern equipment, or have given it any time to grow and harden.
However that may be, bigger and bigger public capital is going to be needed. Is capital formation going to be so easy? Are capital resources going to be so abundant, and is the financial future of a truncated public transport system so certain and so rosy that there is no case at all for reconsidering the point (and reconsidering it before very long) to which the liquidation of the valuable revenue-earning road assets should be pushed? I urge that not, as I say, upon any kind of political grounds but as one of the means of making it possible to adhere to these other very desirable principles of non-subsidy and the rest which have formed the underlying basis of the Government's policy. If that is not done, I honestly feel that there is at least a risk that the transport problem which vexed us between the wars, and which is vexing many other countries still, will be lying again at the door of Her Majesty's Government and in a more formidable shape, which this time will touch more closely still the stability of the transport industry and the public interest and also, perhaps, for the first time, public finances.
5.13 p.m.
LORD GLYN: My Lords, I want to intervene in this debate for a short time, and I want to reinforce what has just fallen from the lips of the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb. Those noble Lords who have had the opportunity of knowing Lord Hurcomb over a very long period, both in the Ministry of Transport and as Chairman of the Transport Commission, recognise that he looks on this problem

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not from any political point of view but simply from an economic point of view, and from what I should like to call a common sense point of view. When the last Bill was before the House, I so thoroughly agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, that I have never been able to understand why the political spotlight should be deliberately placed to divide transport into two sections. Transport is one thing, not two; and transport must be looked at as a means to help industry and trade, without bothering whether it goes on a steel rail or on a road.
It seems to me—I have put this point to various members of Her Majesty's Government first in another place and now here—that each day that passes the assets which have been set aside for sale are deteriorating. I am sure that the opportunity which has now been given to people to purchase these units has been quite sufficient to test the feeling of the public as to whether they really want them or not. The position is most serious, because, as Lord Hurcomb has said, we cannot cast our eyes right on to 1965 when the first nuclear energy generating station for railways will be operating. There will be an intervening ten years, and I believe it is very important that we should try to see what will be the position in five years' time if the Transport Commission are not to be allowed to operate road services as they were doing. I think that they were stopped for political reasons and political theory only.
It is undoubtedly right for Parliament to intervene if it believes that the public interest is being prejudiced by some action, be it by a nationalised body or by a private enterprise group. I spent most of my life in the railway service, and I always found that when politicians interferred with the operation of the railways it was against the public interest—but, of course, I was prejudiced. I remember well the time when we started the Railway Air Service to enable people at the end of the steel rail to get to places that were more easily reached by helicopter or by aeroplane. That was all done away with by one Government which did not agree that there should be a railway-operated air service. That was done because of the nationalisation of air services. One political Party thought that air services should be carried on solely by one organi-
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sation. When we pointed out that the public would suffer unless somebody took it over, we were told that they would not suffer; that the particular line operated, for instance, to the outer Islands and the Highlands, would not pay and therefore would not be adopted. But in course of time it has had to be carried out by subsidy—really a hidden subsidy for that part of transport, owing to the fact that British European Airways had not operated these services at a profit. When the railways were operating railway air services, we operated without loss. That is another example of where, for political reasons, transport has been interfered with.
The position is far more serious than seems to be generally realised. I listened carefully to every word the noble Marquess, the Leader of the House, said, and I know that there is a feeling that, from the political point of view, the action taken was the right one. I should have thought there was enough evidence now to justify the Government's considering the unhappy effect upon the public, and not to be afraid, if necessary, to eat humble pie.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but as he quoted me, I must say this. I hope he will not take me as accepting as a fact that this was done merely for political reasons. We believed that it would make for efficiency; we still believe that it is going to make for efficiency. I do not accept the noble Lord's assumption. It seemed that he was assuming that the Government acted from purely political motives. It might just as well be argued that the late Government acted from purely political motives in dealing with transport in the way they did. Yet I am sure they would equally deny that. I should not like it to be assumed that the Conservative view was that this was purely a matter of political necessity.
LORD GLYN: I recognise that. I think it was obvious that the scheme was a great economic success, operated in the way in which it was being operated. It showed a profit building up to about £6 million a year. That was thrown away, and it was thrown away for certain reasons. If they were not political reasons, I rather wonder what they were. At the same time, I hope that the matter will be looked at again, because, if it is

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not, I feel that, as Lord Hurcomb has pointed out (and no-one knows more about this matter than he does) there is a very grave risk that in the intermediate period between now and the time when the general electrification scheme comes to fruition, there may be a further deterioration in the finances of the Transport Commission and it will then be too late to take any other action.
The other point I wanted to mention is this. The noble Marquess pointed out that the railways had suffered great difficulties owing to extreme user during the war. And it is true that a very large sum of money has now to be spent, and has been spent, in maintenance, in improving the tracks and all the rest of it. That matter is still not finally settled and further sums will have to be spent, though several factors should make it easier to find that money. One is the question of canals. In the old days of the railway companies, who were responsible for the canals, we were always being told that we were deliberately killing the canals in order to help the railways. It is the fact, however, that the canals are not paying and are a burden on the Transport Commission. Proposals have been made for closing certain canals, and though in some cases local sentiment is anxious to keep them open, that cannot be justified on economic grounds. Of course, there is a possibility of an inquiry into the future user of the canals, I can foresee the routes of some canals being converted into roads, because there is sufficient space to enable a road to be laid, and without much expense owing to the level being more or less accurate.
I know that the feeling amongst the transport trade unions is now rather difficult. That is a new factor. In the old days, every railwayman considered himself a servant of the public and looked upon his duties as helping the country, the traveller and trade. Now, I am afraid, that feeling has gone. I believe it is essential to restore the morale and prestige of the railways, and I think that can more easily be done if transport is recognised as a whole, and if the work that is being done by those who work on both the railways and the roads is recognised. We must recognise that public custom has completely changed. Although trains haul about what the public call "luggage vans" they are now rarely filled with luggage. The tendency
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is for people to travel with only the amount of hand luggage they can carry themselves. I think that matters of that kind show what a change has taken place in the user of the railways.
On the question of antiquated wagons, about which the noble Viscount, Lord Falmouth, spoke, one point that is often forgotten is that half the factories in the country have turntables built to accommodate a small truck, and it will mean a very large expenditure if 20-ton wagons, for instance, are to be used at these factories. I am sure that the plan put forward by the Transport Commission shows great promise of success, especially if gas turbines are developed. But I agree with Lord Hurcomb's plea that something should be said about what will happen in the intervening period, before the fruition of this great scheme, to ensure that transport is really made to pay. If that is to be done, we must look on the question as a whole and not divide it into two sections.
5.24 p.m.
LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, I should like to comment shortly upon the headings that appear on pages 6 and 7 of the modernisation and re-equipment pamphlet. I am afraid that a good deal of what I wish to say impinges upon technicalities, but is difficult to separate technicalities from costs, and as technicalities have already introduced themselves several times in this debate, I feel that I shall be in order. The first thing is track signalling improvement. I cordially agree that signalling must be improved. I think that is the soundest proposal in all this modernisation scheme. It makes the greatest possible difference in increasing the capacity of the railways and their earning power. When a driver gets at short intervals a signal which tells him the exact state of the line so many sections ahead, he is in a far better position to regulate his driving than he would be otherwise.
The next heading is better permanent way. The permanent way has always been a serious trouble, on account of rail joints, as the train bumps over every rail joint. Recently it has been discovered that the expansion of steel can be controlled, and in France (I believe it is being done in England, too) great lengths of welded rail are being used: there are several half-mile lengths in use in France at the present moment. The next question

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is that of traction. Steam, electric and diesel traction are all capable of doing everything that is required in the way of the reorganisation of the railways. Let me take steam first. It is admitted to be very much cheaper in first costs than either of its rivals. In the course of the last thirty years, particularly, the steam locomotive has been enormously improved, principally by superheating and higher pressures. In consequence, its efficiency—that is to say, the percentage utilisation in the cylinders of heat produced by the combustion of fuel in the firebox—has been doubled or more than doubled. I take these facts from a paper presented to the Institution of Mechanical Engineers by the Chief Mechanical Engineer of the former L.M.S. With regard to availability, the only obvious difference between steam and electricity is that the steam locomotive has to be stopped, perhaps once a week, to have the boiler washed out. But all figures of availability are so dependent on timetables, which can so easily be manipulated to prove anything, that they have little value.
It is stated in paragraph 29 on page 12, of the modernisation plan that the manual labour of firing makes it difficult to recruit firemen. Not long ago I travelled from Paris to Lille and back on the footplate of the steam locomotive of the fastest train of the day. The engine was equipped with an automatic stoker and during the whole day the fireman hardly touched the fire. With regard to cleansing and servicing, all locomotives, of course, require this, no matter what system they are on. Now turn to electricity. It is obviously essential for tube railways and railways with stations underground. Otherwise, the sole operating advantage of electricity is that electrically driven trains, when composed of multiple unit stock, but not otherwise, save about half a minute in getting into speed after a stop. I have tested this by comparing Paris suburban trains with electric trains on the London Underground. The French trains were drawn by the latest type of suburban engine on which I travelled, and I saw that no special effort was being made to start quickly.
Perhaps I may give a few figures on the question of power, comparing the power of the electric engine with that of the
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steam engine. It is generally recognised that the best way of comparing the power of different locomotives is the horse-power per ton of their own weight. At the end of last year, the French railways made some experiments in high speed, and an electric engine weighing 106 tons attained a speed of 151 m.p.h. The French railways have also a large steam locomotive and this locomotive weighs 148 tons. The horsepower per ton of the two engines was practically the same, and they may both be taken as having been doing their best. With regard to the pollution of the atmosphere, I cannot believe that it is worth while spending huge sums to get rid of locomotive smoke when it is remembered that British Railways burn only about 6 per cent. of the coal mined every year in this country. That does not deal with the question of dust, but all fast-moving traffic must raise dust at all times.
In deciding the relative advantages of steam and electricity, by far the most important consideration is the relative overall cost; and, as many noble Lords have pointed out, during this debate we have heard extremely little about cost. It is not claimed by partisans of electrification that electricity can compare favourably with steam unless the traffic reaches what they describe as a minimum density—that appears on page 12, paragraph 30. To be on the safe side, therefore, the Commission and their predecessors have begun by seizing the richest traffic in England—the London suburbs, London to Brighton and Manchester to Sheffield. But even so, they have failed to produce not only figures showing a profit for electricity over steam working, but any figures at all. I remember a meeting of the Southern Railway at which the shareholders were shouting for comparative figures for the cost of steam and electric working, and they were simply refused. The cost of electric working is kept a dead secret. In these circumstances, the country is invited to invest certainly tens of millions of pounds, and, so far as I can make out, hundreds of millions of pounds, on electrification. I earnestly hope that nothing of this kind will be done, at least until full estimates and full information of results up to date have been submitted to public scrutiny and discussion.
As to atomic power, I would simply remind your Lordships that it is the equipment of the line with conducting rails or

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wires, and their maintenance, that causes expense, not the generation of electricity. To me, it certainly seems that transport is the last thing that should be electrified, because it is always necessary to instal these conducting rails or wires, whereas no other electrical installation requires them. I cannot leave this subject without mentioning a rumour—indeed it is more than a rumour—current in railways circles, to the effect that the real reason for the proposal to eliminate the steam locomotive is the present and anticipated future failure of the National Coal Board to produce sufficient locomotive fuel, either in quantity or quality, while very indifferent fuel is good enough for the immense grates used in power stations. That it should be possible for this to be said in a country where the reserves of coal, much of it of excellent quality, are estimated to be sufficient, I believe, for 400 years, is so deplorable that I hope the Government may be able to refute it, not with a mere general denial but with full facts and figures.
With regard to diesel traction, as has been said the advantages are the absence of a boiler and the consequent possibility of entrusting an engine to a single man in shunting and marshalling yards. This is now being done on a considerable scale. The disadvantages are much higher first cost and enormously more complicated machinery. While a steam locomotive has anything from two to four cylinders, a diesel usually has about sixteen; and diesel cylinders, in which combustion takes place, are far more complicated than steam cylinders. The exhaust from diesel cylinders, though not so voluminous as smoke from a steam locomotive, is far more foul. It is true that in recent years the United States Railways have almost unanimously gone over to diesel traction. Why? The question is wrapped in mystery. There are no easily accessible figures to explain the reason. It is difficult to dissociate this fact front the enormous influence of the American oil companies, exerted by means of interlocking directorates, or otherwise. I wonder! But the fact remains that a diesel engine is a machine of great complication. It is possible that, owing to the absence of a separate engine, diesel-driven cars may be suitable for short-distance local services.
Passing on to passenger rolling stock, I have always thought that passenger
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rolling stock was about the best part of British Railways, and I hope that we are quite satisfied with what we have. I earnestly hope that in modernising the passenger rolling stock we shall not get those horrible open American carriages where one squalling baby can destroy the peace of all the occupants of the carriage. The freight services are to be drastically remodelled. Certainly it is in principle desirable to carry things like coal and ballast in large wagons, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, has said, the principle is not by any means unanimously approved by British traders.
5.41 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, in the very few minutes that I shall occupy the attention of the House I want to deal with one or two points about the railways. We have had three full and detailed speeches, by the mover of the Motion, by the noble Marquess the Leader of the House, and by the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, and that leaves little to be said at this stage of the evening. I cannot approach the subject with the technical knowledge of the noble Lord who has just sat down, but I want to deal with it as one of the seething millions of rail and road users referred to by the noble Marquess in his speech. Personally, I hope that the plan outlined by the British Transport Commission, although it is suggested that it may not be possible to keep to the timetable, will at any rate do much to improve the rail system of this country.
I had the good fortune of being born in East Anglia, but I have the misfortune to suffer travel on the old Great Eastern, and now the Eastern Section of British Railways. Whatever may be said for the other sections of British Railways, there is much to be desired in their working in East Anglia. I may appear a little local or rural in my remarks, but I may tell your Lordships that I started from home this morning in frosty weather, with an overcoat and a neck wrapper on; and when I arrived at Liverpool Street I still retained the same garments. In the course of that journey, the engine on the train had been changed three times, and there was very little steam coming from the engine for the benefit of the passengers in the carriages. In making that point, I would suggest that, in connection with this plan, some better heating systems should be brought into operation. It is

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a pretty poor job to travel for three or four hours in a train which is either unheated or very badly heated.
I wish particularly to deal with East Anglia because in the Press hand-out of the speech which the Chairman of the British Transport Commission made a few days ago there appeared this statement:
"The plan is based upon an analysis of the traffic pattern of the future. It aims to adapt our century-old railway system to the needs of tomorrow. It will undoubtedly be of special benefit to those parts of the Kingdom which are rather more remote from the great industrial centres."
I hope that, in the operation of the plan, particular attention will be paid to transport in the rural areas. I was interested in what the noble Marquess said about the main arteries from London to Rugby and on to York. I should have liked him to make some reference to certain offshoots from those arteries which I hope will, in the future, operate in East Anglia, Norfolk and Suffolk, Cambridgeshire, Northamptonshire and elsewhere, because although I am all in favour of great trunk roads, or main arteries, whatever they may be called, I think there is much to be said for spending money on the improvement of secondary roads for the safety of people using them.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think I did say that, pari passu with those main arteries, work would continue on the subsidiary roads, and that that would be paid for largely out of the £147 million, although a certain contribution would be made by the local authorities. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, and I think work must be done.
LORD WISE: I hope that help will be given to the local authorities. May I make another personal reference? In a small country area in which I am interested, a semi-main road passes through my property. A few days ago I suggested to the local authority concerned that that road, which is not wide enough to accommodate two lorries passing, should be improved. I was perfectly prepared to give them the land in order to improve the road. The reply came back that certain more important roads, certain more dangerous roads, had to be tackled first. Therefore, I hope that in the plan consideration will be given to the secondary roads of the country.
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My noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth referred to the bridges and the level crossings. I notice in paragraph 15, on page 9 of the plan, that £20 million is to be allocated over a period of fifteen years for the improvement or work necessary on bridges. The noble Viscount, Lord Falmouth, referred to the number of bridges in this country over railways and under railways. With regard to level crossings, I am encouraged in this matter by what the Minister said in a debate in another place on February 23. In reply to the honourable Member for Lincoln, the Minister said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 537 (No. 39), col. 1336]:
"I am aware of the particular problems affecting the City of Lincoln, through the level crossing to which he referred, and I am anxious, both through my connection with the B.T.C. and other Ministerial capacities, to do what I can to overcome the difficulty."
I have had experience of the level crossing referred to at Lincoln, which obviously needs improvement. I also have experience of a very tiresome level crossing in King's Lynn: I have known this level crossing for nearly fifty years. When I first came in contact with it, there was a scheme afoot either for bridging it or for putting a tunnel underneath. Time has passed, but nothing has been done. That road is a by-pass through King's Lynn which leads from the Midlands towards north Norfolk and to the seaside towns and villages on that coastline. It is no idle comment to say that sometimes there may be close upon a hundred vehicles, on a Sunday or other evening, waiting at that level crossing for the railway gates to be opened. The railway gates are still hand-operated, as they were, I expect, some forty or fifty years ago. All traffic into Lynn station comes to a dead end. All traffic, in the same way, I believe, as happens at Lincoln, has to come out again; all shunting has to go through these main line gates. I hope that, in bringing the plan into operation or spending the money which is outlined in the plan, some consideration may be given to that particular crossing.
I do not expect the Minister to be able to give me replies to the points I am raising this evening, but I am encouraged that the British Transport Commission have put into operation certain area committees. What I have to say in this respect will, I hope, go from this House

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to the consideration of the area committees and will possibly help them in what they have to do. There is one final point that I should like to make in regard to the Report, and that concerns the question of diesel engines. I am not by any means a technician. I understand that the position at the present time is that diesel engines are being partly produced by private firms and are then assembled by the engineers of the British Transport Commission, or the railways. In the Report it is envisaged that there will be no steam engines in operation after two or three years' time. What I want to know, and I think it may be important, is: if the same operation prevails then as prevails now in regard to the construction and assembling of diesel engines, what will be the position of Crewe, Swindon and the smaller railway shops? Will there still be employment for these thousands of men who are at present employed in those shops? Will those shops be fully occupied in helping along the new plan? I finish as I commenced, and say that I hope that the plan will fructify; that it will be carried out as quickly as possible, and that it will be of help in bringing success, comfort and good travelling on British railways.
5.54 p.m.
LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, I will be extremely brief. I should like, if I may, to couple myself with the remarks the noble Marquess the Leader of your Lordships' House made at the commencement of his most interesting speech in regard to my noble friend, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, and his presentation of these very involved matters. I should like to ask the noble Lord who is to reply whether Her Majesty's Government have considered the possibility of removing some of the railways and converting them into roads. The matter has been considered outside your Lordships' House. In the present state of efficiency of road transport the only way in which we can provide quickly the "arteries" (the noble Marquess has used that term) which go right to the centres of the cities is by using some of the present rail tracks for that purpose. Has the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, something to say expressing the views of Her Majesty's Government in regard to this matter?
5.56 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, I have both eyes on the clock. I just want to welcome this programme. Rail and road must, of course, be coupled together when considering the transport question. Also one must bear in mind that there is only the one financial cake to be cut, and one's ideas must be tempered by the general needs of the country. The other point on that score is that both road and rail will draw heavily on civil engineering for both personnel and equipment, and that is not unlimited either. We invented the macadamised road, through John Macadam. Also, so far as I am aware, we invented the railway. Other people have since passed us; nevertheless, both those ideas were our own. All we are trying to do now is to bring them up to date. My noble friend Lord Teynham was, I think, in favour of a highway authority—I am paraphrasing his words; he is not here at the moment. That is quite a good idea, if that authority is to act in an advisory capacity. I should like to see roads classified by that advisory authority, and a classified specification produced for those roads in accordance with their traffic density and their traffic requirements. After the main arteries would come the secondary arteries, and I think the limited amount of money might be made to go further if the specification were somewhat lower. One of the essential needs for a road carrying a reasonable amount of traffic is a dual carriageway, and the enormous specification for a dual carriageway usually includes a footpath on each side, a cycle track, and ten feet or fifteen feet in the middle. For an artery, that is very desirable, but I believe that a dual carriageway with possibly only a two-foot division in the centre would be immeasurably better than, say, a three-lane traffic road. I believe the cost of such a road is not completely out of the question; therefore I feel that that point might be considered.
I pass now from road to rail. Without the wholehearted co-operation of all the railway staff and unions, the plan cannot be made to work as well as it should. I believe that, with that co-operation, we have the opportunity now of demonstrating that a nationalised industry can pay, and can pay well; but we must start off with the idea that, unless the industry is

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going to be able to pay decent and comparable wages to the people working on that system, we may as well not start. We must have wholehearted co-operation, and no mistrust whatever, between the unions and the managements. I believe that that is quite possible. It is popular in these days to decry the railways, to say that their carriages are dirty and so on. Such criticisms one can read in the Press and hear on the wireless, but I want to state, here and now, that considering what they have got, the stretch of railway with which I am mostly concerned, which is the old L.M.S. and L.N.E.R., is as good as anyone could possibly hope for. The railway-men are courteous. It is true that the trains are not always on time, but they are not at all bad; and the spirit and niceness (if I may use that word) of the railway staff with whom I come in contact is the old spirit which we always knew. One can build on that.
Perhaps there could be a system, not of payment by result but one whereby the operatives might at some time be entitled to a profit share. I should like to see the money accruing dealt with, not by the men, not by the management, but by the trade unions, who have done a good job. They could hand it out as they thought fit. I should like to see the accounts of the railways produced in the form that, I understand, is used in other concerns. I am thinking, for instance, of the excellent pictorial representations that one sees in the Post Office and in explanatory statements of the Budget. That type of thing might go a long way to help. With the war and other frustrations we have been through a difficult time, but we are now getting clear of those obstacles. If we back this plan up to the hilt with a spirit of determination, and make a good job of it, I should not mind ownership of nationalised road transport by the railways in competition with private industry. I think that would be a good thing, provided we could create a spirit of trust to set it going.
6.3 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, we have had a useful debate, and the House is indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, for putting down this Motion, in spite of the great efforts he has made on previous days. I thought
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that he tried to make our flesh creep a bit—in fact, at one stage I began to think that his speech was something of a horror tract. Nevertheless, it is no doubt a good thing that one's flesh should creep occasionally, because one is called upon to use one's reserves of equilibrium and equipoise. First, I propose to deal with the more detailed points made by various speakers, and then go on to one or two of the larger topics which have been raised by more than one noble Lord and on which I have prepared notes. I am not going into the question of congestion in our great cities. There has been a great deal of debate upon that subject in your Lordships' House, in the last few days, and I do not think we can really accept the position that it is no good going in for a system of roads in the country until one has knocked about our cities so much that the vehicles can get much more freely into them—one might be postponing the roads for ever.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has put forward the view which he has expressed before now (I am not sure whether it was in the Press or in this House), that a Highway Authority is the right medium for taking over the roads of this country. But a pretty formidable legal and legislative task would have to be performed to get them into the hands of such a Highway Authority; and of course, by the Trunk Roads Acts of 1936 and 1946, the Minister, through having taken over a large mileage of the major roads of the country, has done something towards one side of the achievement which the noble Lord would like to see performed by this Highway Authority. Admittedly, the other side, the financial side, by which the Authority would raise loans in the market, and so on, is quite out of the question unless the Authority came into being. Her Majesty's Government think that at the moment there is quite enough change going on in the world without having to set up a separate Highway Authority. The noble Lord advocated the idea of these joint companies to own road haulage, but the views of the Government at the moment have been expressed by my noble Leader, that the disposal is going on all right, as I hope to show later on, and that it is unnecessary to get cold feet on the subject.
The noble Viscount, Lord Falmouth, as he always does, gave us some sound

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and experienced opinions about the railway plan—in fact, at one stage I wondered whether it was the Falmouth plan or the B.T.C. plan which the House had before it to-night. He rightly laid his finger on one of the most of the important aims in the plan, which is the through-braking of all goods stock, and that, of course, hinges on the decision as to the type of brake and couplings to be used. I am afraid that that matter has not yet been fir ally decided. With the rest of his speech, I think any railwayman could heartily agree.
The noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, who does not seem to be in his place, has asked me certain specific questions. He wants to know how the finances of the plan will progress. He wants to know whether the railways will reach equilibrium at the end of five years, or when, and what would be their maximum deficit in the interval. Of course, those questions are almost impossible to answer. But there is, I think, one factor which the noble Lord has omitted, and one which would be generally admitted to be the most important factor of the lot—that is, that as the result of the 1953 Act the position of railway finance in itself has become rather unpredictable. Railway finances have been carried into a completely new railway climate—a climate that has not existed in this country for a hundred years—and it is quite impossible for anybody to calculate precisely how much benefit they are going to get out of it, The benefits from the 1953 Act are going to start to accrue much more quickly than the benefits from the capital improvement programme; and with that large, unpredictable factor there, I submit that it is really impossible to answer the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb.
In the first part of his speech, Lord Hurcomb answered for me many of the criticisms put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that we had not sufficiently considered this matter, and so on. The noble Lord showed that in practice this plan has not emerged "out of the blue" and ill-considered: it has actually been maturing within the Ministry of Transport for a very long time. In fact, I understood the noble Lord, rather than anything else, to criticise the delay in producing the rabbit out of the hat. Of course, the answer is that, up till now, the country has
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not been able to stand the degree of capital investment which we knew was required and which is now being put both into roads and into rail. I am afraid that I cannot let him know at this time what we propose to spend on canals, but I will let him have a note of that amount later.
He does not approve of the element of competition which we introduced by the 1953 Act. My noble Leader has dealt with that matter in extenso. Lord Hurcomb called up the situation in 1921 for comparison, but things were very different in those days. The noble Lord omitted the enormous reform created by the new railway charges plans under the 1953 Act: in 1921 not only were the railways bound hand and foot by legislation but the forms of road transport which they had as auxiliaries to the railways were capable of going only a few miles, for they were horse-drawn vehicles. To-day the railways have a very substantial fleet of delivery vehicles, in addition to the 3,250 vehicles that will remain with the Commission as wholly-owned companies. That fleet is capable of a delivery radius of a great many miles, so that it is now possible for the railways to collect over a distance of twenty or thirty miles, to put goods on to rail, and then to deliver twenty or thirty miles at the other end—a very different proposition from that which faced them in 1921.
My noble friend Lord Glyn was also for calling a halt. Some of the remarks I shall make about the process of disposal will answer some of his arguments, but I suggest that he was expressing what one might describe as the old railway man's view, a view bred out of the despair of the past. Since the advent of a rival form of transport the railways have had what they have felt to be a raw deal. The railways felt that the only way out of their despair, and the only possible alleviation, was to get hold of their competitors by some means or other and to stop the competition. I suggest that the 1953 Act has put a completely different complexion on this question. The Commission, with its railways, will have plenty to do in trying to get back the long-distance haulage of this country without having to embark on much short haulage in addition. There is a tremendous field for the railways in purely specialised long-distance haulage—a field

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in which they will not come up against very severe competition from these small people.
I am sorry that I cannot agree with a great deal of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell. I can assure him that it is necessary to do what is proposed if one takes a forward view of life and production in this country.
LORD MONKSWELL: But that is just what I asked the noble Lord not to do. I asked him to give us the definite facts.
LORD HAWKE: I am giving the most definite facts that I can. Production in this country is going up every year by a certain percentage, and within a certain number of years the railways, as operated by steam, will be quite inadequate to carry the traffic of the country. That can be done only by electricity. I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Wise, like many others, lives in one of the more backward parts of the country as regards its railway services. The noble Lord is not the only person who has discovered that the heating on the old Great Eastern is designed to breed hardy men. If, and when, dieselisation descends into those regions, he will, at any rate, be assured that there will be a separate boiler on the diesel engine entirely designed for his comfort. His bodily comfort will not have to share steam with the pistons and cylinders of the driving engine; so at any rate he will have a chance of getting a better deal there.
The noble Lord also referred to country roads. It is for the local authority to initiate improvements there, and I must warn him that a substantial proportion of the cost, varying according to the class of road, will fall on the rates; so that those who advocate a great deal of road improvements are not always popular among their fellow men. There is, in the outline of the plan, no precise provision for level crossings, but that is a matter of detail; and undoubtedly there must be provision for level crossings. The noble Lord asked me a very important point about the manufacture of diesels in railway workshops. I understand that the tentative suggestion is that certain parts shall be manufactured by manufacturers and other parts by the railway workshops which have been manufacturing locomotives in the past. The noble Lord expressed fear or doubt on the
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possibility of unemployment arising among railway workshop men. I am informed that at present 90 per cent. of the railway workshop staff are engaged on repairs, and only 10 per cent. on the manufacture of new locomotives. The noble Lord should take some reassurance from those figures; they are the best I can give at the moment. This is an important point, and one which the Transport Commission have very much in mind.
The noble Lord, Lord Sempill, asked me whether the railway tracks could be used as roads. That suggestion is very fine in theory and might work in some places, but I am told that generally the tracks are too narrow, and that the tracks which would afford any great relief to the traffic are the very tracks that will be wanted most for the railways. On the whole, there are very few railway tracks between important areas in this country that are not already carrying heavy traffic, and likely to be carrying extremely heavy traffic within the next twenty years. We share the view of the noble Viscount, Lord, Stonehaven, concerning staff and the importance of esprit de corps, and profit-sharing. But it has always been found that railways are the most difficult type of business for which to devise any scheme by which profit-sharing could work. Unfortunately, many railways in the world have had no profits to share for a long time.
I come now to one or two of the major arguments. The petrol tax is now a prop of the general revenue, bringing in £240 million a year. At times it is argued, first, that it is wicked to tax transport and, second, that we are taxing transport at 250 per cent.—higher than any luxury. The answer is that we now tax all sorts of other things. We tax vehicles and labour; we tax food, I believe; we tax homes; we tax tools of trade; we tax capital goods; we tax health, in the shape of medicine. Why is it particularly wicked to tax transport? I do not think one can say it is any more wicked to tax transport than to tax anything else. What about this enormous weight of 250 per cent.? The general public, when it buys a bus ticket, does not buy oil: it buys transport. And the incidence of the oil tax is nothing like 250 per cent. on the transport which is sold to the public. In fact I understand that it is about a half-

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penny on a threepenny bus ticket, so that there would be only a small reduction if it were entirely removed. Of course it is a great illusion to think that it can be entirely removed. The oil tax has become, in fact, an essential part of the revenue, and the criterion of whethen to reduce it or not depends, first, on its yield and, secondly, on how much revenue the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants. At the moment the tax is still buoyant and, unfortunately, the Chancellor still requires a great deal of revenue.
Now as to the disposal of road haulage. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, seemed to think that this had been a failure, judging by the numbers disposed of up to date; that the situation had gone too far and should be halted; that the services will soon suffer; that, what the roads becoming more and more congested, we ought to have more and more central planning of road use; and, therefore, that a Road Haulage Executive should be kept in being. Take the task of the British Transport Commission, which is the disposing body under the Act of 1953. The Commission had to dispose of these things without delay, on the best terms available, without avoidable disturbance, and to give small men a chance. This was a difficult task because there is a slight degree of incompatibility in some of these four basic conditions. They have to dispose of 32,500 vehicles, plus some depôts and stocks, and so on, and they started off, first of all, to test the market, because they had no idea how these things would sell. So they started out to see what the small men wanted.
They soon found that anything offered with depôts did not meet with a ready sale, so that a certain amount of time was wasted on that. But they also soon found that vehicles offered in smallish units, without depôts, sold pretty well, and up to January 31 they had sold 12,698 vehicles, of which 10,280 have been sold in units of less than fifteeen vehicles. Out of this ten thousand-odd, 7,516 have been sold in units of less than five. There are lists of another 2,367 which have recently been published, and the results of the tenders may possibly be known next month. In addition, there are lists of 5,800 vehicles sold in larger units which were published in January. It is quite clear, therefore, that the British Transport Commission have ful-
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filled their task to date. They have sold on terms which are quite fair. Small men have had the opportunity, and have taken the opportunity to come in, and disturbance of the system has been avoided. The only conceivable criticism would be over speed, and I can say that speed has not been neglected. In the result, this competition is already beginning to be in evidence on the roads. Moreover, there have been remarkably few complaints that any place suffers from lack of service, and we intend to go on implementing the 1953 Act in this way. The British Transport Commission will do anything they can to meet the wishes of any particular buyer in making up a unit.
Now, at the end, the British Transport Commission will still be left with 3,250 vehicles, which have been tentatively chosen and will go before the Minister for final approval. In addition, as I said, the railways have an enormous fleet of delivery vehicles, so that under the control of the British Transport Commission there remains a substantial road element. That, I think, answers the charge of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that we were planning to buy many more containers but that there were no vehicles to put them on. The answer is that British Railways have a great number of delivery vehicles.
My noble Leader, I think, has dealt very effectively with the accusation, shall we say, that we are breaking up an integrated system. He has fully explained that in practice it was not an integrated system at all: that it was merely integrated through the common ownership of two separate monopolies. There still remains the argument that the Commission are going to lose revenue over their road haulage section. In 1953, they contributed nearly £9 million of gross surplus towards the Commission's gross surplus. This improvement on previous years is the result of much hard work and reorganisation, perhaps stimulated a little by the very severe criticism they had received in the past. But it was a good result. Their total takings were approximately £80 million, and those takings represented about 12 per cent. of the Commission's gross takings. Some £9 million represented the road contribution towards the gross surplus of the Commission of £60 million, out of which central charges and interest

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charges had to be met. It was undoubtedly a useful bit of revenue, but hardly one on which the whole British Transport Commission revenue would stand or fall. If they were to lose the whole of their £9 million revenue—and I would remind your Lordships they will still be left with 3,250 vehicles—their overall operating ratio would rise between 1 and 1½ per cent.
It may be said that this is only a beginning: if £9 million in 1953, why not more later? Here we go into the realms of surmise. I suggest that there are only two ways in which the undertaking could be used. First to extract its maximum monopoly value from the joint ownership of road and rail, and, secondly, as a separate undertaking operated as efficiently as possible, as in practice it has been run. The first event, of course, we are not prepared to countenance, because that is exactly what we are trying to stop. But if we had to forecast the result in the second event, we only see what an efficient commercial enterprise succeeds in earning upon its fixed capital. In 1953, the Road Haulage Executive earned 21 per cent. on their fixed assets or, if we bring in goodwill, 12 per cent. The 628 companies reporting on the last quarter of 1954 and listed in the Economist of January 15, curiously enough, also earned 21 per cent. on their fixed assets and stocks, and if we brought in goodwill in their case there would be little change in the figure. I think these figures show that the Road Haulage Executive were earning about as much as they were capable of doing in 1953 and it was unlikely that they could earn substantially more, except by the exploitation of the consumer through the common ownership of a rail-road monopoly. To put it another way, I think it at least unlikely that the earnings on the £41 million of road haulage assets could be a substantial prop to the revenue on the £1,500 million British Transport Commission.
As a result of our transport policy, we believe that the road hauliers will again be able to offer the variety of services their customers require. It will be again possible for the small man to start up in business and work his way up. At the same time, the former remunerative method of discovering what the railway
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quotes and then undercutting is not going to be so easy. For the business they want, the railways are going to be very competitive, but there will be a lot of business that they do not want, and here their prices will be higher. In that field there will be plenty of scope for the road haulier. We are likely to get more real integration in that way, by traffic going to those who can handle it best, than we have had up to date.
On the other hand, every railwayman can now feel he is a member of a live organisation which intends to provide him with the latest equipment and in which there will be scope the whole time for the adoption of new ideas to attract and handle on the railway the ever-growing volume of traffic which the rising production of this country will make. The new ideas and new equipment will mean that jobs will be cleaner and provide more scope for skilled and technical knowledge. That means more opportunities for promotion for those who make themselves masters of the new methods. We hope that the railways will once more become an attractive career to the best of our youth. We once led the world in railway thought, and practice, and it is high time we took up our rightful position again.
6.33 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, in asking your Lordships to give me permission to withdrawn my Motion, may I first of all thank the noble Marquess the Leader of the House for the all too generous personal reference he made, for the fullness of his speech and for his concluding words, which I echo, that in future we all can view this problem and discuss it from only one point of view: from the point of view of what is good for the country, leaving ideological, dogmatic and even political opinions right out of the question. I should like to thank all noble Lords who have joined in this debate. If I single out for special thanks the noble Lords, Lord Hurcomb and Lord Glyn, it is only because they so strongly supported my point of view. I think it shows your Lordships' House to be one place at least where a man can speak his mind, irrespective of where he sits. With those words, I ask leave to be allowed to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE BILL
6.34 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order).
House resumed.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, in moving that this Report be now received, I should like to add that, subject to the agreement of your Lordships, I propose to take the Third Reading of this Bill at an early stage to-morrow afternoon. I beg to move that the Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to; Bill reported without amendment.

COCOS ISLANDS BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
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