Sitting of 1 March 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past 0Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Bank Notes
    Mr. MacCollasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the average life of a £1 and of a 10s.note.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): The average life of a £1 note is estimated at rather more than a year and of a 10s. note at about half that period.
    Mr. MacColl: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the average life of a pound note before the war was six months? Does he not think that the additional life now allowed is the reason why there is so much dirty money?
    Mr. Butler:We are watching that aspect all the time. I am only giving the hon. Member the duration of the life of a pound note under the present Administration.
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider altering the colour, form, and design of Treasury notes, with a view to improving their appearance.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:There are no Treasury notes. The design of Bank notes is a matter for the Bank of England, which is aware of my hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Sir T. Moore: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been directed to our Scottish Bank notes, which reflect the history, romance and passionate character of our people, and would he consider suggesting to the Bank of England that it would be to the advantage of England that it should get the same facilities as Scotland?
    Mr. Butler: I will certainly see that the Bank is aware of all my hon. Friend's suggestions.
    Mr. Rankin:Would the right hon. Gentleman, instead of bothering about the appearance of Bank notes, seek to increase their value?

    National Land Fund
    Brigadier Raynerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make available some part of the accumulated balance of the National Land Fund in order to pay for the special needs of the national parks.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am considering all the proposals about this Fund, but I am not ready yet to make a statement.
    Brigadier Rayner:Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the national park authorities have not anything like enough money to carry out their duties under the National Parks Act, and will he also bear in mind that it is not fair to place on local people—I am thinking particularly of Dartmoor and Exmoor—the heavy financial responsibility of a national park?
    Mr. Butler: I am aware of all these issues but I am not ready yet to make a statement.
    Mr. Dalton: Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the increasing support for this proposal by people both inside and outside the House?
    Mr. Butler:I am aware of the right hon. Gentleman having been the author of this Fund, and of the importance that he attaches to it.

    Purchase Tax (Cathode-ray Tubes)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Purchase Tax uplifted on renewals of 10-inch, 11-inch, and 12-inch cathode-ray tubes; and, in view of the heavy cost of these renewals, if he will eliminate this tax.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The tax amounts to £3 18s. 0d. on the standard 10-inch tube, and £4 13s. 8d. on the 12-inch. I understand that 11inches is not a standard size. I will bear in mind the hon. Member's suggestion.
    Mrs. Mann: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear also in mind that "Big Brother"

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    in the Post Office takes another £3 while the right hon. Gentleman takes more than £4 arising out of the misfortunes of people whose sets require repair? Whilst the trade has been referred to the Commission, should not the right hon. Gentleman be referred to the police along with Ali Baba and the other 39?
    Mr. Butler: I will discuss all the implications of the hon. Lady's remark with my noble Friend the Postmaster-General.
    Mr. Woodburn: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen what is alleged to be the exorbitant price charged in this country for these tubes? Could he not get the price reduced, which would also reduce the tax?
    Mr. Butler: I am dealing only with the tax in answer to this Question.

    Equal Pay
    Mr. Rankinasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the older women in the employment of the Civil Service, who are within seven years of retirement, will not receive either full equal pay or a full pension; and if he will look into their case with a view to giving it special treatment.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:I would refer the hon. Member to my answer to the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) on Tuesday, 15th February last.
    Mr. Rankin: I am aware of that answer, and while I realise the Chancellor's difficulty in the matter, would he not, in view of the sense of injustice which prevails, agree to meet representatives of the National Association of Women Civil Servants, which is the oldest women's organisation concerned in this matter, in order to talk over the question with them?
    Mr. Butler: Though I should be glad to receive any representations made by the hon. Member, I do not think I could give such an undertaking, because this scheme was agreed to by the Staff Side.
    Mr. Willeyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will arrange to discuss with the Civil Service National Whitley Council the desirability of retaining in employment those women who are, by reason of age, at present excluded from the full benefits of the equal pay award, so that they may qualify through their future service beyond the normal retiring age.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:No women are excluded from the scheme by reason of age. There is no longer a normal retiring age in the Civil Service; the general policy now is to allow civil servants to serve beyond the minimum retiring age of 60, provided they are fit and efficient and there is work for them to do.
    Mr. Willey: As the Chancellor knows that his previous replies on this subject have brought me little comfort, will he see what can be done, in the light of his reply, to ensure that women who do not enjoy the full benefits of the concession which he has made at any rate receive full pensions?
    Mr. Butler: I can only undertake to keep what the hon. Gentleman has said quite humanly in mind. I cannot go further than that today.

    Old-Age Pensioners (Tea)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the present high cost of tea, he will institute a scheme of tea-tokens for old-age pensioners.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:I regret that I cannot accept the hon. Member's suggestion.
    Mr. Driberg: Can the Chancellor explain why, if it is possible to do this in respect of tobacco, which is consumed by far fewer people, it is not possible to do something like it in respect of tea?
    Mr. Butler:Relief to pensioners comes from a remission of duty on tobacco, which is a very much larger factor than the possibility of remission of the duty on tea, for the reason that the proportion of tea taxed is only the foreign portion. That amounts to very little compared with the Commonwealth portion, and, therefore, the remission of tea duty to help old-age pensioners in this way would give practically no relief at all.
    Mr. Driberg: If the right hon. Gentleman merely means that it is administratively inconvenient, could he not look at the matter again and see whether, by some form of subsidy or another, he cannot do it?
    Mr. Butler: The Government thought it preferable, apart from the difficulties to which I have drawn the hon. Member's

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    attention, to deal with the problems of pensioners by raising the pensions themselves.

    Retired Police Officers (Pension Additions)
    Mr. Finlayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that married police officers who retired before World War II suffer deductions from their pensions if their total income, excluding the first £52, exceeds about £450; and whether, in view of the deterrent effect of these income limits upon provident retired police officers, he will review this position.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:No, Sir, there are no such deductions from pensions. The conditions to which my hon. Friend refers apply only to additions to basic pensions payable under the Pensions (Increase) Acts, 1944–47, and I am afraid that some such limitations must necessarily be a feature of any scheme of assistance according to need.
    Mr. Finlay:Is my right hon. Friend aware that the imposition of these limits acts as a deterrent to police officers who put in some very useful work? Will he not look at the position again?
    Mr. Butler: I have given my hon. Friend an answer to his Question, which relates to that particular period. The only fair way of dealing with this question is by reference in some way to total income.

    Gold and Dollar Reserves
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by how much national reserves fell from June, 1951, to June, 1952; and by how much they rose in the next two years.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I presume my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the gold and dollar reserves, which, as recorded in the latest Balance of Payments White Paper, fell by £779 million between 30th June, 1951, and 30th June, 1952; rose by £243 million between 30th June, 1952, and 30th June, 1953; and rose by £233 million between 30th June, 1953, and 30th June, 1954, that is in the two years to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers.
    Captain Pilkington: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is very misleading for hon. Members opposite to try to
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    make capital out of the fact that in October, 1951, the level of reserves was higher than it is today, whereas in fact they were cascading downwards?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Would the Chancellor take the opportunity of correcting the wholly inaccurate statement which he made last Thursday, when he said that reserves fell between June and October, 1951, by £900 million—[Hon. Members: "Dollars."] No, £900 million; it is stated in Hansard—whereas in fact they fell by 600 million dollars, which is a four-fold difference. Would the right hon. Gentleman also confirm that the gold reserves today are below the level at which they were in October, 1951?
    Mr. Butler: I was not aware that "pounds" occurred in Hansard, and I think certainly some effort should be made to correct that,* because the figure I had in mind was 900 million dollars.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Six hundred million dollars.
    Mr. Butler: In the period which I had in mind, for which the statistics were correct, it was 900 million dollars. I will see to it that an absolutely accurate figure, compared with absolutely accurate dates, is inserted, so that there is no doubt about the manner in which hon. and right hon. Members opposite allowed reserves to fall. In answer to the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's Question, it is true that we have never reached the height which reserves reached in 1951.
    Mr. Jay:Would the right hon. Gentleman also say accurately by how much reserves today are lower than they were in June, 1954?
    Mr. Butler: In June, 1954? I said that, leaving aside those repayments to the I.M.F. and E.P.U. creditors, which amounted respectively to £40 million and £39 million sterling, the fall has been about 40 million dollars.

    Hire Purchase
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how far his regulations provide that hire-purchase finance companies are required to disclose to the Inland Revenue the interest paid by them to depositors.
    * [See col. 1455, 24th February; This correction has been made.]
    Mr. R. A. Butler: In general, it is considered that interest paid to depositors by hire-purchase finance companies is subject to deduction of Income Tax at source, and in such circumstances the paying company is not required to furnish details of the amounts paid to individual depositors.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Chancellor aware that some of these hire-purchase finance companies are apparently not deducting tax at source? In that case, can we take it that they will be covered by the 1952 Income Tax Act?
    Mr. Butler: I have to go by the normal rule of taxation, but I will investigate the point made by the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate of the volume of hire-purchase credit outstanding he is making, with a view to calculating the extent of the inflationary danger.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:I cannot at this stage add to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on 3rd February.
    Mr. Jenkins: Is the position not becoming ridiculous when the Chancellor obviously thinks that hire purchase is an important element in the inflationary pressure which has been developing recently, but when neither he nor anyone else is able to give any reliable estimate of the figures involved? Will he not put pressure on the President of the Board of Trade to produce some reliable statistics such as the Americans have?
    Mr. Butler:My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade said that he would have to weigh the value of the information against the additional work which would be put upon traders. If it is possible to get the figures, we will certainly get them, but at present I could not give any reliable figures and, therefore, I would rather not give them.
    Sir R. Boothby: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that while abuses in the hire-purchase system should certainly be checked, nevertheless if the system is properly run it does enable the working class to buy goods which otherwise would never be within their reach?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer give any estimate of the effect upon the amount of goods sold by hire purchase of the restrictions which he has just imposed?
    Mr. Butler: We had better give the restrictions a little chance of operating before we give an estimate such as was so often wrongly given by the previous Administration. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby), I am quite aware that many working families have relied on hire purchase for purchasing things they want. I do not consider that the terms disclosed to the House in the Order—namely, 15 per cent. down and the balance over either 24 or 48 months, according to certain classes of goods—are unduly onerous for the working people.
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, since hire purchase has attracted goods into the home market that ought to be exported, and since the balance of trade has worsened in recent months, what steps he is now taking to check the less desirable features of the hire-purchase system.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made on the economic and financial position on 24th February, and also to the reply which I gave on 25th February to a Question by the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) about applications for finance for hire purchase.
    Mr. Osborne:Has my right hon. Friend any estimate of the amount of goods that he is driving from the home market to the export market each year by these measures?
    Mr. Butler: No, Sir, I have no exact estimate.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: As the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not know the amount of hire purchase outstanding, and as he will not tell the House the figure by which he wants to reduce it, will he tell us what were the objects of the restrictions that he announced last week?
    Mr. Butler:The object of the restrictions, as the hon. Member and the House know perfectly well, was to restrict a particular boom in hire purchase which was encouraging consumer demand to an extent which was fundamentally inimical to our interests.

    Television Films and Programmes (Dollar Expenditure)
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) the dollar expenditure on films imported into the United Kingdom for television purposes;
    (2) the dollar expenditure paid for the performance rights of parlour games on television in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:It is not the practice to give details of foreign exchange facilities provided to particular persons or organisations.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: In view of the fact that the Independent Television Authority has now been in existence for nearly a year, is my right hon. Friend not in-accurate in giving that answer? Should he not give now the sort of figures which he has withheld for many years?
    Mr. Butler: It is not only I who have withheld them, but it has been the practice not to release them.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Is it not a fact that the B.B.C. is not now the only importer of television films, and, therefore, should not my right hon. Friend reconsider the form of this answer, which is now becoming traditional?
    Mr. Butler:I can only assess broadly the amount that is made available for these purposes, and I do not think that the point made by my hon. Friend really alters the general sense of the answer which I gave.

    Transferable Sterling (Exchange Rate)
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he is taking to improve the free rate of exchange for transferable sterling.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have nothing to add to the statement which I made on Thursday, 24th February.
    Mr. Jenkins:Is the Chancellor satisfied that having representatives of the Bank of England dealing in the free currency markets of the world and using our scarce gold and dollar reserves for this purpose will, in fact, produce a net gain of dollars? Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree that this would have been quite unnecessary if he had not prematurely removed restrictions last March?
    Mr. Butler: No, Sir. I do not take that view at all. I take the view that this operation has been conceived with a view to husbanding and using as best we can our precious gold and dollar reserves. Moreover, in answer to the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, had we not adopted the policy which we adopted we should not have restored buoyancy and prosperity to the economy of our country.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that the intervention of the Exchange Equalisation Account in the market for transferable sterling, in the manner stated last Thursday, really amounts to convertibility of the £by the back door? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this means-in effect, that any non-resident or foreigner holding sterling is now able to convert it into dollars at the expense of our reserves, while we and other countries of the sterling area still have severe restrictions on dollar imports?
    Mr. Butler: No, Sir. It is not as simple as that. In answer to the right hon. Gentleman's point, which has been canvassed in the Press and is a very important one, the position is that this practice does not alter or increase the rights of a foreign holder of sterling. The authorities will refrain or intervene as they think fit, but I do not think that we have quite reached the situation which the right hon. Gentleman has described.
    Mr. Jenkins: But does the right hon. Gentleman really think that his policy, which has led to free sterling being quoted at rates down to 2·71 dollars, and which has necessitated these highly hazardous operations, has been really successful?
    Mr. Butler: It has been a great deal more successful than allowing the transferable rate to stand at about 2·50 dollars, which was where we found it.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many authorities on this subject, including foreign bankers, estimate that we have lost a large number of dollars because of operations in the transferable sterling market, operations which would not have been possible if it had not been for the relaxations introduced last March?
    Mr. Butler: I would say quite otherwise. I should not have acted if, as has

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    been observed by the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), who put a question on the Order Paper about this before I acted, there had not been difficulty in the transferable area. This difficulty was due to a variety of causes, a summary of which I have given in statements not only in the House but in the country. I do not think that I can add to those statements on this occasion.

    British Petroleum Company (Government Directors)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what use the Government have made of their powers as shareholders in the British Petroleum Company and its predecessors over the last 40 years; and how often they have voted as shareholders.
    Mr. R. A. Batter: Under the Articles of Association the Treasury appoints two directors, who watch over the interests of Her Majesty's Government. But it has not been our practice to interfere with the commercial management of the company. I regret that the information requested in the second part of the Question is not available.
    Mr. Grimond:If, as is apparent, the Government have taken no part whatever in the management of the company, and have not exercised their rights as shareholders except to appoint two directors, do they consider that this is a satisfactory position? If the Government are retaining their shares in the company, should they not take some share in its direction and management? If not, should they not get rid of their shares?
    Mr. Butler: The Government have no desire to get rid of their share in the company, which has been extremely profitable. Furthermore, this practice has operated since 26th March, 1929, when a copy of the original letter describing the terms and conditions of the operation of the Government directors was circulated in the Official Report of that date, to which, no doubt, the hon. Member will refer.
    Mr. Stokes:Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer not consider it absurd that directors on the board of this company on behalf of the Government Should have restrictions attached to them? Does he
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    not think that a very different Situation might have arisen in the past—I agree that it is circumstantial—if there had been competent directors representing the Government, and if they had been free to act quite independently and unprejudiced by the City, and by the oil interests in particular?
    Mr. Butler: All sorts of very nice things might have happened if the world had been a better place.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Would it not have been a good thing if the Government of the day had done more about this at the time of Abadan?

    Import Duty (Tea)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in order to reduce tea prices, he will abolish the duty of 2d. per lb. at present imposed on certain imported teas.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:The purpose of the duty is to maintain the margin of Imperial Preference. It falls on only the small proportion of tea not entitled to preference and has no appreciable effect on prices. It is unusual at this period of the year to give final answers on Questions of this order, but it would be unwise for the hon. and gallant Member to rely on this proposal as one likely to achieve the end he has in mind.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that we expect only very small and niggardly concessions from him, and that this is one of them? Is the financial situation so unsatisfactory that he must continue to filch about £3,000 sterling a week from the unfortunate tea consumers of this country? Why not encourage the process of bringing down the price of tea?
    Mr. Butler:The element of duty involved in this Question is about one-eighth of a penny per pound on the average, and I do not think that that figure would have the effect that the hon. and gallant Member believes. Furthermore, the proportion of foreign to Commonwealth tea is so small that I do not think the proposal Would have the effect that the hon. and gallant Member thinks. Therefore, I do not think it is a very good idea.

    National Savings Certificates
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that a National Savings Certificate, purchased in September, 1939, for 15s. has earned interest amounting to 7s. 11d., and has a nominal value today of £l 2s. 11d., but is worth only 10s. hi real purchasing power, if he will take the necessary powers to safeguard the savings of weekly wage earners by tying the repayment of the first £500 of such certificates to either the cost-of-living index or the Interim Index of Retail Prices.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I do not think that if would be practicable to do What my hon. Friend suggests.
    Mr. Osborne: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that it is of the' greatest urgency to encourage the ordinary working man to support the National Savings movement? Is it not unfair to repay him in a depreciated currency? Cannot something be done to help him?
    Mr. Butler: The ordinary working man does not seem to think that it is particularly unfair, because there is a rise of about £90 million in the retention of savings between this year and last year. Furthermore, it is difficult to carry out my hon. Friend's suggestion because it would mean picking out one form of Government security and leaving the others.

    Performing Right (Dollar Expenditure)
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he permits dollar currency to be paid to the United States of America for the performing rights of the game called "Twenty Questions," evidence of the playing of which game in this country over 100 years ago has been sent to him.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Such payments are freely allowed, on reasonable evidence that they art: properly due.
    Mr. Langford-Holt:Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that such payments should be made in the cases to which I have drawn his attention, where they are quite clearly not properly due in view of the fact that performing rights are claimed for this game which was played as long ago as 11th October, 1845, by three Members of the then Cabinet?
    Mr. Butler: I have a very interesting paper of 105 years ago describing the playing of the game "Twenty Questions," but I am informed that in modern times copyright could subsist in the literary form in which the rules of the game are expressed. I therefore cannot alter the the form or nature of my answer.

    Investment
    Mr. Albuasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he estimates will be the value of total home investment in each of the next five years planned to be undertaken by Government Departments, public corporations, the National Health Service, the iron and steel industry, the petroleum industry, and wholly privately-owned industry, respectively.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Estimates are not available in the form requested by the hon. Member. Information for varying periods ahead about investment in the gas, electricity, railway, and iron and steel industries has been given in recent publications by the authorities concerned and in the White Paper on Atomic Energy. Information about investment to be financed by the Government in 1955–56 is to be found in the Estimates. Indications further ahead for some major Government programmes have been given in recent Ministerial statements about education, hospitals and roads.
    Mr. Albu:How far has account been taken in all these estimates of the necessity to continue our investment in export-earning and import-saving industries? If these have not been taken into account, are not the rest of the plans complete window-dressing for the purposes of the week-end speeches by the Chancellor's hon. Friends who sit behind him?
    Mr. Butler:The plans have been conceived, strange to relate, in the national interest. It is surely in the national interest to develop our hospitals, roads and educational services, and I should have thought that hon. Members opposite would have welcomed the investment that we have undertaken.
    Mr. Gaitskell:Is it not very likely that the rise in the Bank Rate will, in fact, reduce investment, and is that not one of the unfortunate features of this method of dealing with the situation?
    Mr. Butler: I realise that that is a proposition at which we should look; and we have looked at it. It is more likely in the initial stages to affect investment in stocks, which in itself would not be disastrous, but I should be very sorry if any steps that we have taken affected the long-term investment, which is now showing signs of improvement.

    Dog Licences
    Mr. Alportasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take steps to amend the law so as to include an insurance element in the annual dog licence, by means of which it would be possible for anyone sustaining injury or damage to property arising from the action of a dog, to obtain appropriate compensation.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: While this is the time of year when I examine all possibilities and contingencies, I must not unduly arouse the hopes of my hon. Friend.

    Public Works Loan Board (Interest Rate)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what alteration he proposes to make in the Public Works Loans Board rate following the increase in the Bank Rate by 1 per cent.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury when he opened the debate on the Second Reading of the Public Works Loans Bill in the House yesterday.
    Mr. Blenkinsop:Is the Chancellor aware of the strong criticism from both sides of the House of the frequent variations in the rate of the Public Works Loan Board bills, and does this latest variation mean that he regards the latest change in the Bank Rate as being of a fairly permanent character?
    Mr. Butler: The Bank Rate is, as I have frequently described it, a flexible instrument, but I am sorry that its flexibility should have repercussions in other spheres.
    Mr. Jay: Can the Chancellor give the information, which was denied the House yesterday, as to whether the housing subsidy will be raised sufficiently to
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    cover this increase? Is the subsidy a flexible instrument also?
    Mr. Butler: I am unable to add anything on that subject today.
    Mr. Gaitskell:May we take it that the decision of the Chancellor to raise the interest rate to local authorities is not in any way intended to discourage or diminish the extent of expenditure on capital works by those local authorities?
    Mr. Butler:We must leave the initiative to the local authorities, but the intention in raising the Bank Rate was, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, for it to have a beneficial effect on the economy, and I hope it will have that effect.
    Mr. Gaitskell:I must press the Chancellor on this matter. What we want to know is, what is the intention of the Government here? Is it part of their plan for putting matters right that local authorities should spend less on development and on capital works? Can we have an answer, please?
    Mr. Butler: The answer is that local authorities should spend what they themselves think best.

    Income Tax (P.A.Y.E. Coding)
    Mr. Russellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the meaning of the term "double reduced rate restriction," sometimes used by the Inland Revenue on Income Tax coding forms.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: This is an adjustment of P.A.Y.E. coding where an individual has more than one source of income falling within P.A.Y.E. Itis intended to correct the excessive allowance of reduced rate relief which would otherwise be given by the tax tables in such cases.
    Mr. Russell: As this term is not very well known, could my right hon. Friend undertake to put a note on the coding form, if it is a term used very widely?
    Mr. Butler:In the first place, I think it would be a good thing if my hon. Friend would read a letter which my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary is about to send him. When he has mastered that—I found some difficulty in mastering it—I hope that he will then appeal to me again to see whether he can get any further elucidation of this matter.

    Entertainments Duty (Theatres)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the recent closing of a number of theatres in the north-west of England, including the Accrington Hippodrome, and to the fact that in the majority of cases such closing is due to heavy financial losses, increased by the burden of Entertainments Duty; and whether, in view of the importance of pre serving the living theatre in this area, he will review the effect of the Entertainments Duty upon theatres in that area which have closed, or are just managing to carry on, with a view to early remedial action.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:Representations received from the Theatres Entertainment Tax Committee and other quarters have drawn my attention to the fact that the Accrington Hippodrome and other theatres in the north-west of England and elsewhere have closed. Entertainments Duty, in common with other duties, will be included in the general review of taxation before the Budget.
    Mr. Hynd:In conducting that general review, will the Chancellor bear in mind the different classes of Entertainments Duty now in operation and the anomalies caused thereby?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I spend this time of year looking at that sort of thing.

    Road Haulage Lorries (Purchase Arrangements)
    Mr. Mitchisonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what change there has been in Government policy, as ex pressed in this House on 22nd April, 1953, by the then Minister of Transport, with regard to encouraging hire-purchase arrangements for sale of lorries under the provisions of Sections 3 to 6 of the Trans port Act, 1953; and what restrictions he now proposes to put on such arrangements.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:We are continuing to follow the line described by the Economic Secretary on 16th April, 1953, namely, that the provision of such credit in suitable cases is regarded as consistent with Government policy.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is not the encouragement of inflation on ideological grounds just as bad as its encouragement for any
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    other purpose, and is the Chancellor going for ever to turn the other cheek to Mr. Gibson Jarvie, who is not really grateful?
    Mr. Butler: I am not conscious of ever having taken any such action in respect to the gentleman in question, but credit for the acquisition of these lorries is regarded as credit for business investment, and was, therefore, on the same basis as other similar forms of credit when we were considering the drafting of the new Order.
    Mr. Mitchison: But why is it business investment to transfer lorries from public to private ownership?
    Mr. Butler: Because this Government think it is a good thing to do.

    Industrial Investment and Dividends
    Mr. Albuasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the figures of net industrial investment in fixed capital at constant prices for each year since 1948; and the amount distributed in dividends in each of those years.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:No official estimates of net industrial investment are available. Figures for dividends and interest payments for 1948–53 are given in "National Income and Expenditure 1946 to 1953,"and figures for 1954 will be provided in the forthcoming White Paper on National Income and Expenditure.
    Mr. Albu:Would the Chancellor agree that net industrial investment rose to an all-time peak in 1950 and fell by 1953 to the inadequate pre-war level, and that while investment was falling, dividends were rising?
    Mr. Butler: I would like to examine the hon. Gentleman's very clipped remarks on this subject to see whether I can support them, but I undertake to examine them.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all expert opinion is convinced that there is not nearly enough of this capital investment if this country is to keep its place at the head of the industrial nations?
    Mr. Butler: That is precisely why the major measure of the last Budget was devoted to increasing investment, and I am glad to say that it has been successful, as far as we can judge.
    Mr. Albuasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what means he intends to ensure that the recent apparent revival of industrial investment, from the low levels of the last three years, is not reversed as a result of the rise in the Bank Rate.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:I see no reason to suppose that a flexible use of interest rates will have any permanently adverse effect on long-term industrial investment.
    Mr. Albu: Can the Chancellor say whether it is his view that a very high Bank Rate, and consequently long-term interest rates, does or does not have a restrictive effect on investment in the months immediately following?
    Mr. Butler: The fundamental point is that long-term industrial investment depends very much on the confidence of industry in the future strength and stability of the economy, and as I think that that will have been increased by our recent action, I see no reason to be too pessimistic about investment.
    Captain Pilkington: In view of the fact that when my right hon. Friend raised the Bank Rate, the "Daily Herald," in large black letters, said that there was a financial crisis and "The Times" on the same day said there was no hint of one, will my right hon. Friend say which was right?
    Mr. Butler: It is not my practice to adjudicate between our principal organs of public opinion.
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now introduce legislation to limit excessive dividends.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir.
    Mr. Jay:Can the Chancellor say why he proposes to restrict hire purchase, and, for instance, the purchase of furniture by newly married couples, by compulsory legislative methods but merely leaves dividend restraint to pious exhortations which have always been disregarded?
    Mr. Butler:I do not think that the attempts made by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to find an artificial method of limiting dividends were successful. I think we had better leave the matter where it is, with the general statements already made by the Government.
    Mr. Jay:How can the Chancellor say that our method was not successful when it was never tried? Will he tell us why he makes distinction between hire purchase and dividend restraint?
    Mr. Butler: I had good reason to act in the case of hire purchase, and I think I was able to act effectively. I believe that the situation With regard to dividends allows a proportion to be put back into reploughing and investment, which is an important feature.
    Mr. Stokes: Does the Chancellor recognise an excessive dividend When he sees one?
    Mr. Butler: The answer is "Yes, Sir."

    Balance of Payments
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the worsening balance of payments situation, he now proposes to introduce his Budget at an early date.
    Mr. R. A. Butter:I have already announced measures designed to rectify the balance of payments situation. I cannot yet make any statement about the date of my Budget.
    Mr. Jay: But as the Chancellor announced last Thursday the complete reversal of his economic policy, is there not a case for bringing the Budget policy into line, and letting the country know where it stands?
    Mr. Butler: As the first part of the supplementary question is inaccurate, that is to say, as we are simply using an instrument which we ourselves reintroduced, namely, credit policy, and we are using another instrument in order to restrict consumer demand, I do not see how we are reversing our policy. As regards the Budget, I think hon. Members had better await both the announcement of the date and the contents of the Budget.
    Mr. Gaitskell:Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Budget is an extremely important instrument of economic control, and, if he still takes that view, will he at least tell the House whether the Budget is to be before or after Easter?
    Mr. Butler: That will be announced in the ordinary course of business when we are ready to make the announcement.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Is it not a fact that the situation is infinitely better today than when we took over from the Socialist Government? Is it not a further fact that, in 1951, after six years of Socialist misrule, this country stood on the verge of national bankruptcy and were we not going backward financially at the rate of about £34 a second?
    Mr. Butler: I should like to endorse all that my hon and gallant Friend has said.

    Economic Surrey (Publication)
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he proposes to introduce an Economic Survey for 1955.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I hope to publish the Economic Survey towards the end of this month.
    Mr. Jay:Can the Chancellor assure the House that the Survey will contain a realistic and objective account of the situation, and not the sort of cheerful optimism which we have had from his speeches?
    Mr. Butler: It will be up to the level which has been maintained since this Government took office.

    Sterling (Convertibility)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when sterling will be made convertible.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: When the conditions are ripe.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton:Is not the Chancellor aware that, by using the gold and dollars that we have in our Exchange Equalisation Account to bring up the price of transferable sterling to the official rate, he is, in effect, returning to the Gold Standard and in that way following in the unfortunate footsteps of the Prime Minister who, by returning to the Gold Standard, created a few million unemployed in this country?
    Mr. Butler: The hon. and gallant Gentleman's question is a little farfetched. If we were to return to the Gold Standard as fee said, it would mean a much closer unification of the rate than is taking place at the present time. Therefore, I think that he is exaggerating the situation.

  INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION AND RETAIL PRICES
  Mrs. Mannasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how far production increased during 1952, 1953, and 1954; and what effect this had on the cost-of-living index for these years.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: The published Index of Industrial Production shows that there was a fall in industrial output of 2 per cent. in 1952, followed by a rise of 6 per cent. in 1953, and, probably, 6 per cent. in 1954. It is not possible to draw any conclusions as to the relationship between these estimates and changes in retail prices.
  Mrs. Mann: But did not the "Economist," as well as the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen opposite, tell us that the only way to bring the cost of living down was to increase production? How is it that when we have increased production the cost of living still goes up?
  Mr. Butler: I have received many essays from the "Economist" on the subject of the hon. Lady's Question, and the common link, as she so perspicaciously remarked, is an increase in production, but there are many other factors dependent on the trend of the indices. If the hon. Lady would like me to send some of the essays I have on this subject to her, I shall be glad to do so.

  SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the increasing importance of hon. Members being advised on matters of law relating to Scotland, he will now consider appointing as Solicitor-General for Scotland a Member of the House of Commons.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave to Questions in similar terms which he asked on 12th May, 1953, and 23rd February, 1954. It is becoming an annual event.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that things id the Scottish Department have been getting steadily worse, that an important Order had to be withdrawn at the last moment when it

  1879
  was declared by Mr. Speaker to be out of order because it was improperly framed, that the Lord Advocate is grossly overworked, and that the two previous holders of that office have been overworked and have sought refuge on the Bench? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it time we got the legal position in Scotland rectified?
  The Prime Minister: As it is St. David's day, I might almost suggest to the hon. Member that if he is very dissatisfied with conditions in Scotland he might return to Wales.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that if I return to Wales South Ayrshire is too well educated politically ever to return a Tory Member of Parliament?

  FOUR-POWER CONFERENCE
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the consultations that have taken place with the United States and French Governments regarding a Four-Power Conference after the Paris Agreements have been ratified.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I cannot disclose the content of confidential exchanges with our Allies.
  Mr. Donnelly:Does the Prime Minister not think it very important that the Government should make their policy on this matter as clear as possible as soon as possible?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, certainly, but I have nothing to add to what the Foreign Secretary told the House on 16th February. On the general question of Four-Power talks, I have nothing to add to the statements which I made on 16th December and 25th January, with the references to which I should be very glad to furnish the hon. Member after his long travels.
  Mr. H. Morrison: May we take it from the Prime Minister that as and when the Treaty is ratified—and Germany has now ratified—the Government will give favourable consideration to the possibility of Four-Power talks, which should be advantageous to Europe and the world?
  The Prime Minister: I think the argument has been used several times, and with great effect, that the shortest way to getting Four-Power talks is to get the ratification over and out of the way.

  QUEMOY AND MATSU
  Mrs. Castleasked the Prime Minister if he will refer to the Security Council of the United Nations the decision of the United States Government to support the Chinese Nationalists with armed force in their refusal to evacuate Quemoy and Matsu, as a threat to world peace.
  The Prime Minister: I am not aware that the United States Government have announced any such decision.
  Mrs. Castle:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Chinese Nationalists are claiming that this is the view of the United States Government—[Hon. Members: "No."]—and that it has not been repudiated by the United States Government? Does he not think that ambiguity in this matter is extremely serious, particularly as the Chinese Nationalists are being allowed to remain in Quemoy and Matsu, not to defend Formosa, but merely in order to maintain their morale in their determination to attack the mainland by force? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] As the whole situation is impregnated with danger to peace in that area, will the right hon. Gentleman at least get an assurance—[Hon. Members: "Speech."] I cannot be quicker Mr. Speaker, because I cannot make myself heard. I know that hon. Members opposite do not want this to be heard because they are afraid of the consequences. Can the right hon. Gentleman get an assurance from the United States Government that it is not their intention to support the Chinese Nationalists in defending Quemoy and Matsu?
  The Prime Minister: I shall not prolong the discussion after what I think is a really unfair abuse of the rules of Question Time.
  Mr. Foot: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether or not the Foreign Secretary raised this matter with Mr. Dulles at the Bangkok Conference?
  The Prime Minister: I have not seen the Foreign Secretary since the Bangkok Conference.
  Mr. Wigg:On a point of order. Is it not for you, Mr. Speaker, to say——
  Hon. Members: Speak up.
  Mr. Speaker:Hon. Members who are urging the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) to speak up are preventing me from hearing what he is saying.
  Mr. Wigg: Is it not for you, Mr. Speaker, and not for the Prime Minister to say whether or not the rules of order have been abused?
  Mr. Speaker: Any hon. Member is entitled to express an opinion about the rules of order. The whole House is the guardian of the rules of order and not only I.

  PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (BROADCAST DISCUSSIONS)
  Mr. Footasked the Prime Minister whether he will initiate discussions to revise the notice given to the British Broadcasting Corporation concerning the 14-day ban on radio or television debates about issues to be debated in Parliament.
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister whether he will state the basis of his refusal to reconsider the ban on political broadcasts and discussions by the British Broadcasting Corporation in certain circumstances; and by what authority this agreement was reached, in view of the established principle that there shall be no interference in programme matters.
  The Prime Minister:As the rule was adopted by the B.B.C. itself with the agreement of the official leaders of the major parties, and as this arrangement continues up to the present to be the basis of its operation, no authority is required. For many reasons, some of which I indicated to the House on 23rd February, I do not see why the rule should be reconsidered. Certainly I should not propose to reconsider it until reference had been made through the usual channels to the leaders of the other side.
  Mr. Foot: Although the Prime Minister expressed his own view on this matter very strongly, does he not think that it is properly a matter to be decided by the House of Commons and not by party leaders or party Whips? Will he, therefore, make arrangements so that the
  1882
  House of Commons may be able to debate the matter and vote on it, and give its own decision?
  The Prime Minister: That is certainly a matter which could be taken into consideration through the usual channels.
  Mr. Shinwell: Although it may have been convenient in 1948 to come to such an arrangement—[Laughter.]—it was agreed to by the right hon. Gentleman himself, and I hope that note will be taken of that—ifthe B.B.C. should now wish to revise the agreement, and makes representations to the right hon. Gentleman and others concerned with it, would the Prime Minister be prepared to reconsider it? Would he direct attention to any clause in the B.B.C. Charter which permits any outside body of persons to interefere with B.B.C. business?
  The Prime Minister:The two sides of the House would have to go through the preliminaries. So far as I am concerned, I am a convinced and obstinate opponent of a change. I think that the liberty of the individual must be sustained. It must be sustained against the tyrant, it must be sustained against the mass, and it must be sustained against the machine.
  Mr. Attlee: Is it not the general view that the authority of this House as the main forum of discussion must be sustained against any attempt by an outside body to usurp its position?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question sets forth principles worthy of the responsible leadership of a great party.
  Sir R. Boothby:May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will take steps to ensure that any future negotiations of this kind which take place with the B.B.C. shall be conducted by the Government, which is responsible to the House, rather than by the party caucuses behind the back of the House, without the knowledge of the House?
  The Prime Minister: I will certainly consider that. I am not quite sure that the hon. Member, who is one of these great stars, is entirely impartial.
  Mr. C. Davies: While agreeing with what the Leader of the Opposition has said about the House being the principal forum, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he will not agree that there is

  1883
  no right whatsoever for anybody, even in this House, to deny the right of private discussion and free speech to anyone? Does he not also agree that on a matter as important as this, it should not be left to any particular section of the House, but to the House itself, to make any report on the matter?
  The Prime Minister: I am all for liberty of private discussion and free speech, but it does seem to me that new and different series of considerations arise when we have to deal with the use of modern machinery which addresses very often, whether they are prepared for it or not, over 13½ million persons.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no party decision on this matter, either on that side of the House or on this? Will he not agree that individual Members of the House have a right to express an opinion on a matter which concerns not the Government alone, nor the party leaders, but every hon. Member?
  The Prime Minister: Of course, if there were any very strong opinions on either side of the House—even more if there were strong opinions on both sides—I have no doubt that the various facilities open in the course of the Session would, one way or another, be made available.
  Mr. Bellenger:If by any chance the House decides to reverse this rule, would the Prime Minister do all he can to see that the B.B.C. is not used as a monopoly by certain individual right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen?

  GOVERNMENT OVERSEAS EXPENDITURE (CONTROL)
  Mr. Yatesasked the Prime Minister if he has considered the fourth recommendation of the Seventh Report of the Select Committee on Estimates, Session 1953–54, on the Foreign Service; and the views of Her Majesty's Government regarding the method by which effective control over Government expenditure overseas can be exercised.
  The Prime Minister: The question at issue is how the control of expenditure is best exercised. The view of the Government about the constitutional impropriety of visits abroad by a Select Committee or its sub-committees was stated
  1884
  on 1st June last by ray right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal. To that I have nothing to add.
  It is, of course, the case that overseas expenditure, like other Government expenditure, is the subject of various checks and inspections. The House and its Committees have an important function to perform in this connection, but Committees will no doubt usually wish to satisfy themselves that the inspection arrangements are adequate rather than themselves to conduct the inspections. For this purpose they have, of course, under their terms of reference, full powers to send for persons, papers and records.
  Mr. Yates:Does the Prime Minister realise that the recommendation to which this Question refers was a recommendation that the House should be given an opportunity of deciding how these Committees should exercise effective control over Government expenditure abroad? Do I understand from the Prime Minister that the House is not to be allowed such an opportunity, as recommended by a Select Committee of the House?
  The Prime Minister: That was all answered and dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, and I have nothing to add to what he said on that subject.
  Mr. Smithers:Is my right hon. Friend aware that a reading of the Report shows that it is very doubtful whether the Members of the Committee understood the matter with which they had to deal, that it misled the public and damaged the Foreign Service, and that no useful service, but quite the contrary, would be served by allowing the Committee members to go abroad?
  Mr. Speaker: We cannot discuss the Report now.
  Captain Waterhouse:On a point of order. A most damaging and completely unwarranted statement has been made by my hon. Friend about one of the Committees of this House. With great respect, may I ask you, Sir, whether you will not ask him to withdraw?
  Mr. Speaker: I stopped the hon. Member who was asking the Question, because I thought that he was going much too wide. I do not think that we can discuss the Report of the Committee at this stage.

  1885
  If the hon. Member said anything which was not true, or which was unjust, he ought to withdraw it, but in the circumstances I do not know.
  Mr. Smithers: You have asked, Mr. Speaker, whether I said anything untrue or unjust. All I have said, with great respect, is that a reading of this Report makes it doubtful whether the members of the Committee: understood the matter with which they dealt, and to that statement I adhere.
  Mr. Stokes: Further to that point of order. May I respectfully submit that some of us who know something about what goes on in connection with overseas expenditure entirely endorse the findings of the Select Committee?
  Mr. Yates:Further to that point of order. Since that Report was issued, a further Report has been issued in reply to the Foreign Office. That later Report completely vindicated the Committee. Is it in order that an hon. Member should be allowed to cast a reflection on a Committee which has been proved right?
  Mr. Speaker:I do not think that that is a point of order at all. Hon. Members frequently disagree with each other in this House, and so long as they do not say anything which is untrue about another hon. Member, or is unjust, I think that we ought to put up with frank expressions of opinion, so long as they are in order. There are bound to be different opinions about this matter, and opinions, though strong, if they are expressed in terms of order, should be allowed.
  Several Hon. Members——
  Mr. Paget:Further to that point of order——
  Mr. Speaker:There is no point of order in it at all. I have ruled that I could not hear anything in what the hon. Member said which was outside the rules of order. It may be quite wrong, it may be right. That is no business of mine.
  Mr. Paget——
  Mr. Speaker:Does the hon. and learned Member rise on a new point of order?
  Mr. Paget: Yes, Sir. When the right hon. and gallant Gentleman raised the
  1886
  question of order, surely he raised a matter of considerable principle, the right of this House to criticise the findings of the Reports of Select Committees. It is a fundamental right of this House as a body to criticise and say what it likes about the Reports of Committees.
  Mr. Speaker: We are not discussing the Report of the Committee now. As for the rest of the hon. and learned Member's observations, he only said in more impressive language what I endeavoured to convey.

  MINISTERS' SALARIES
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the need for reducing consumption to meet the danger of inflation, Her Majesty's Government will now, again, reduce Cabinet Ministers' salaries to £4,000 a year until there is an improvement in the financial situation.
  The Prime Minister: I do not think the moment has come to reduce the salaries either of Cabinet Ministers or of Members of the House of Commons.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does not the Prime Minister realise that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is hard up, and should not the Ministers, who helped to bring us into this mess and muddle, sacrifice as much as the people who buy their furniture on hire-purchase terms?

  HOUSING (REGULAR EX-SERVICE MEN)
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
  Mr. Dodds: To ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he can yet state what action is to be taken to deal with the unsatisfactory position of Regular Service men at the end of their engagement in the matter of housing.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I will, with permission, answer Question No. 62, which was not reached.
  I have been considering the difficulties confronting Regular ex-Service men, who wish to apply for council houses in areas where a residential qualification is required by the local authority. Sailors, soldiers and airmen, returning to civil life

  1887
  after a period of years in the Forces, as often as not possess no fixed abode anywhere at all. To insist, in such circumstances, on a residential qualification is to make it quite impossible for many of them to get their names put onto the housing list, however great may be their need.
  That these men should be penalised in this way, solely by reason of the fact that they have been serving their country, is a most grievous injustice, which should not be allowed to continue. I consider that an application for a council house, made within one year of his leaving the Forces, by a Regular ex-Service man, who has found employment in or near the district, or has family connections with it, should be considered exclusively on the basis of his housing needs, without any regard whatsoever for the length of his residence in the locality.
  I have decided to address a circular to all housing authorities, recommending the general adoption of this principle; and I am asking any authorities who do not feel able to do so, to let me know their reasons.
  Mr. Dodds: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the welcome announcement which he has just made, may I ask if he and his right hon. Friends will bear in mind that if this country is to get the Armed Forces it needs, without conscription, the rest of the community must be prepared to do more for the human problems of those who are willing to go into the Armed Services?
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether this will extend to Scottish housing?
  Mr. Sandys: I can only communicate with authorities in England and Wales, but I am in touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Mr. Wigg:No doubt the right hon. Gentleman has read the Report of the Select Committee on the Army Act and will have noticed the Committee's recommendation that legislation should be introduced. If local authorities do not respond freely, is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to give an undertaking to consider introducing legislation?
  Mr. Sandys: I believe that the action I am taking, and the generally favourable
  1888
  response in the House, will probably have the desired effect. I am determined that we shall get a square deal for the ex-Service man by one means or another.
  Mr. Elliot: As the Joint Undersecretary of State for Scotland is in his place, may I ask if he would consider making a similar statement with regard to housing conditions north of the Border?
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Commander T. D. Galbraith): My right hon. Friend is of opinion that local authorities were given ample guidance in 1950 and 1952. Recent inquiries show that there are no serious difficulties on this score in Scotland.
  Mr. Bevan:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in most parts of the country the residential qualification has not been insisted on in respect of many of these people—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I said that in most parts of the country it has not been insisted upon—and that in the past it has always been found preferable to secure the co-operation of local authorities in this matter, as in the last analysis they are the people who decide the tenancies of their houses?
  While I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I have said the same thing myself from that Dispatch Box, may I ask if he is not also aware that there are other individuals who suffer hardship as a result of the residential qualification, and that the hardship to an individual is just the same, whether he be an ex-Service man or a civilian?
  Mr. Elliot: May I ask my right hon. and gallant Friend the Under-Secretary of State to look again at the statement which he has made, because I think that it is within the experience of many hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies that similar cases have arisen in Scotland, and I think that it would be a great pity if this direction which is being issued in England should not also apply north of the Border?
  Mr. Usborne: If this principle is to be applied to retiring ex-Service men, may I ask whether a similar principle ought not to be applied, say, to retiring colonial civil servants who are also, by the same token, ending a period of service for their

  1889
  country? What is the difference between the two—[HON. MEMBERS: "Or civilian workers."]—or civilian workers?
  Mr. Sandys: I am certainly prepared to consider other hardship cases. But this was a crying need. I think that if we can deal with ex-Service men that will be something achieved.
  Mr. A. Henderson:May I ask whether the statement of the right hon. Gentleman covers Regulars in the strict sense of the term, or only Regulars with a minimum service of three years?
  Mr. Sandys: It applies to all Regulars.
  Sir I. Fraser: May I ask my right hon. Friend if it is not a good thing to follow the very long-established custom in Britain of giving some small preference to ex-Service men?
  Several Hon. Members——
  Mr. Speaker:Order. We cannot discuss this matter now.

  FLOODS, AUSTRALIA
  Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether Her Majesty's Government are prepared to offer relief to the victims of the Australian floods.
  The Prime Minister: Her Majesty's Government and the people of this country have the deepest sympathy with the victims of the grave Australian floods. We are actively considering what can and should be done to help.
  Mr. Fernyhough: While I am thankful that the Government are prepared to give this help to people in other parts of the Commonwealth who need it so badly, may I ask if the Prime Minister can say why, when floods occurred about 12 months ago in India, Her Majesty's Government refused to give any assistance?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that that has anything to do with the Question which was asked.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Boardman: May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, relating to a Question which I put down to the Chancellor of the Exchequer? The "Manchester
1890
Evening News" reported, on 11th February, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had addressed the Merseyside Chamber of Commerce and during his speech had made but a single reference to the state of the cotton trade, but nevertheless a very significant reference, in so far as he said that he appreciated the difficulties of Lancashire and so far as might lie within his power he would help to solve its problems.
Last week I put a Question on the Order Paper
"To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has yet decided in what way he intends to implement his undertaking to the Mersey-side Chamber of Commerce to help the Lancashire cotton industry with its problems."
Yesterday I received a note from the Treasury telling me that, at the request of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my Question had been referred to the President of the Board of Trade. It may be one of those strange Parliamentary coincidences that today the Chancellor of the Exchequer was first on the list for Questions and those addressed to the President of the Board of Trade have not been reached.
The point about which I am concerned is that my Question was altered without my permission to read
"To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has yet decided in what way he intends to implement his undertaking to the Merseyside Chamber of Commerce to help the Lancashire cotton industry with its problems."
That makes an utterly stupid Question which I have no option but to withdraw. I am not aware that the President of the Board of Trade has been to Liverpool. Neither am I aware that he has made any promise in the same manner as the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a promise to the Merseyside Chamber of Commerce.
I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, because, short of some reasonable explanation, I am bound to come to the conclusion that this is rather a blatant case of Ministerial "passing the buck."
Mr. Speaker: So far as I am concerned, as I have frequently said in this House, I have no control whatsoever over the transference of Questions from one Department to another. Ministers are the judges of their own spheres of responsibility, and it is probably in that sense that this Question has been transferred. As regards any alteration made

1891
in the form of the Question, I understand that in its original from it did not strictly comply with the rules of order, in that it referred, I think, to a newspaper, one of the things one must not do in a Question. Furthermore, the area within which Ministers can be questioned as to speeches made outside this House is somewhat limited. I understand that any alteration made was done to make the hon. Member's Question conform to the rules of order. As to the transference, I am afraid that I have nothing to say.
Mr. Gaitskell: Further to that point of order. While it may be that my hon. Friend's Question was not correctly drafted, it was surely very surprising and odd that the Government should have redrafted it without seeking his consent or authority?
Mr. Speaker: The Government did not redraft it. I understand that any change in the phrasing was made by the learned Clerks at the Table to make it. conform to the rules of order. I do not think that the Government had anything to do with it at all.
Mr. Gordon Walker: Surely, Mr. Speaker, even if the alteration is made by the Table, it is only proper that they should consult the hon. Member concerned and should not make any alteration at all without consulting or informing the hon. Member?
Mr. Speaker: I understand that was done.
Mr. Boardman: It was, indeed, the Treasury which altered the Question. The Table deleted the reference to the "Manchester Evening News." This Question appeared on Friday's Order Paper, and then it was altered to read
"To ask the President of the Board of Trade"
instead of
"to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer."
Mr. Speaker: I understand that the alteration in the phraseology was made by the Table in order to make it conform, but that the transfer was done by the Treasury.
Mr. M. Stewart: Further to that point of order. Could you give us guidance on this point, Mr. Speaker? Surely, the effect of the transfer was to alter the whole substance of the Question. It is a rule, I believe, that an hon. Member is responsible for the accuracy of any statement made in a Question. Once the lesser error in form had been corrected, my hon. Friend's Question was accurate in fact. It referred to a statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When the Question was transferred, it then became inaccurate in fact, because it referred to a guarantee given by the President of the Board of Trade which had never been given. Not only has my hon. Friend had his Question transferred by the Government without his knowledge, but he has had his Question turned from one which was accurate into one which contained an inaccuracy.
Mr. Speaker:It is clear that in this case any such inaccuracy was by no means the fault of the hon. Member who put down the Question. As to the transference, there is nothing more that I can say about it. I think that it was open to the hon. Member, when he found that an inaccuracy was imported into the Question by its transference to another Department, to withdraw it or to have taken some other steps. I am afraid that we cannot use more time on this matter at this stage.
Mr. Stokes:Further to that point of order. Surely, Sir, it would clear up the whole matter if we could now have the answer, when we could see how sensible it is?
Mr. Speaker: It might clear the matter up, but, even with that object in view, I am afraid that I could not allow it.
Mr. Odey: May I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Should not the hon. Member concerned be consulted when a Question is transferred from one Minister to another?
Mr. Speaker: I understand that on this occasion the hon. Member was informed.

DEFENCE
3.45 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): I beg to move,
That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1955, Command Paper No. 9391.
This Motion stands in my name, and it is supported by my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Defence.
We live in a period, happily unique in human history, when the whole world is divided intellectually and to a large extent geographically between the creeds of Communist discipline and individual freedom, and when, at the same time, this mental and psychological division is accompanied by the possession by both sides of the obliterating weapons of the nuclear age.
We have antagonisms now as deep as those of the Reformation and its reactions which led to the Thirty Years' War. But now they are spread over the whole world instead of only over a small part of Europe. We have, to some extent, the geographical division of the Mongul invasion in the thirteenth century, only more ruthless and more thorough. We have force and science, hitherto the servants of man, now threatening to become his master.
I am not pretending to have a solution for a permanent peace between the nations Which could be unfolded this afternoon., We pray for it. Nor shall I try to discuss the cold war which we all detest, but have to endure. I shall only venture to offer to the House some observations mainly of a general character on which I have pondered long and which, I hope, may be tolerantly received, as they are intended by me. And here may I venture to make a personal digression? I do not pretend to be an expert or to have technical knowledge of this prodigious sphere: of science. But in my long friendship with Lord Cher-well I have tried to follow and even predict the evolution of events. I hope that the House will not reprove me for vanity or conceit if I repeat what I wrote a quarter of a century ago:
"We know enough,"
I said,
"to be sure that the scientific achievements of the next 50 years will be far greater, more rapid and more surprising than those we have already experienced … High authorities tell
1894
us that new sources of power, vastly more important than any we yet know, will surely be discovered. Nuclear energy is incomparably greater than the molecular energy which we use today. The coal a man can get in a day can easily do 500 times as much work as the man himself. Nuclear energy is at least 1 m. times more powerful still. If the hydrogen atoms in a pound of water could be prevailed upon to combine together and form helium, they would suffice to drive a 1.000 horse-power engine for a whole year. If the electrons—those tiny planets of the atomic systems—were induced to combine with the nuclei in the hydrogen, the horse-power liberated would be 120 times greater still. There is no question among scientists that this gigantic source of energy exists. What is lacking is the match to set the bonfire alight, or it may be the detonator to cause the dynamite to explode."
This is no doubt not quite an accurate description of what has been discovered, but as it was published in the "Strand" Magazine of December, 1931—twenty-four years ago—I hope that my plea to have long taken an interest in the subject may be indulgently accepted by the House.
What is the present position? Only three countries possess, in varying degrees, the knowledge and the power to make nuclear weapons. Of these, the United States is overwhelmingly the chief. Owing to the breakdown in the exchange of information between us and the United States since 1946 we have had to start again independently on our own. Fortunately, executive action was taken promptly by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition to reduce as far as possible the delay in our nuclear development and production. By his initiative we have made our own atomic bombs.
Confronted with the hydrogen bomb, I have tried to live up to the right hon. Gentleman's standard. We have started to make that one, too. It is this grave decision which forms the core of the Defence Paper which we are discussing this afternoon. Although the Soviet stockpile of atomic bombs may be greater than that of Britain, British discoveries may well place us above them in fundamental science.
May I say that for the sake of simplicity and to avoid verbal confusion I use the expression "atomic bombs" and also "hydrogen bombs" instead of "thermo-nuclear" and I keep "nuclear" for the whole lot. There is an immense gulf between the atomic and the hydrogen bomb. The atomic bomb, with all its

1895
terrors, did not carry us outside the scope of human control or manageable events in thought or action, in peace or war. But when Mr. Sterling Cole, the Chairman of the United States Congressional Committee, gave out a year ago—17th February, 1954—the first comprehensive review of the hydrogen bomb, the entire foundation of human affairs was revolutionised, and mankind placed in a situation both measureless and laden with doom.
It is now the fact that a quantity of plutonium, probably less than would fill this Box on the Table—it is quite a safe thing to store—would suffice to produce weapons which would give indisputable world domination to any great Power which was the only one to have it. There is no absolute defence against the hydrogen bomb, nor is any method in sight by which any nation, or any country, can be completely guaranteed against the devastating injury which even a score of them might inflict on wide regions.
What ought we to do? Which way shall we turn to save our lives and the future of the world? It does not matter so much to old people; they are going soon anyway, but I find it poignant to look at youth in all its activity and ardour and, most of all, to watch little children playing their merry games, and wonder what would lie before them if God wearied of mankind.
The best defence would of course be bona fide disarmament all round. This is in all our hearts. But sentiment must not cloud our vision. It is often said that "Facts are stubborn things." A renewed session of a sub-committee of the Disarmament Commission is now sitting in London and is rightly attempting to conduct its debates in private. We must not conceal from ourselves the gulf between the Soviet Government and the N.A.T.O. Powers, which has hitherto, for so long, prevented an agreement. The long history and tradition of Russia makes it repugnant to the Soviet Government to accept any practical system of international inspection.
A second difficulty lies in the circumstance that, just as the United States, on the one hand, has, we believe, the overwhelming mastery in nuclear weapons, so the Soviets and their Communist satellites have immense superiority in what are called "conventional" forces—the
1896
sort of arms and forces with which we fought the last war, but much improved. The problem is, therefore, to devise a balanced and phased system of disarmament which at no period enables any one of the participants to enjoy an advantage which might endanger the security of the others. A scheme on these lines was submitted last year by Her Majesty's Government and the French Government and was accepted by the late Mr. Vyshinsky as a basis of discussion. It is now being examined in London.
If the Soviet Government have not at any time since the war shown much nervousness about the American possession of nuclear superiority, that is because they are quite sure that it will not be used against them aggressively, even in spite of many forms of provocation. On the other hand, the N.A.T.O. Powers have been combined together by the continued aggression and advance of Communism in Asia and in Europe. That this should have eclipsed in a few years, and largely effaced, the fearful antagonism and memories that Hitlerism created for the German people is an event without parallel. But it has, to a large extent, happened. There is widespread belief throughout the free world that, but for American nuclear superiority, Europe would already have been reduced to satellite status and the Iron Curtain would have reached the Atlantic and the Channel.
Unless a trustworthy and universal agreement upon disarmament, conventional and nuclear alike, can be reached and an effective system of inspection is established and is actually working, there is only one sane policy for the free world in the next few years. That is what we call defence through deterrents. This we have already adopted and proclaimed. These deterrents may at any time become the parents of disarmament, provided that they deter. To make our contribution to the deterrent we must ourselves possess the most up-to-date nuclear weapons, and the means of delivering them.
That is the position which the Government occupy. We are to discuss this not only as a matter of principle; there are many practical reasons which should be given. Should war come, which God forbid, there are a large number of targets that we and the Americans must be able to strike at once. There are scores of airfields from which the Soviets could

1897
launch attacks with hydrogen bombs as soon as they have the bombers to carry them. It is essential to our deterrent policy and to our survival to have, with our American allies, the strength and numbers to be able to paralyse these potential Communist assaults in the first few hours of the war, should it come.
The House will perhaps note that I avoid using the word "Russia" as much as possible in this discussion. I have a strong admiration for the Russian people—for their bravery, their many gifts, and their kindly nature. It is the Communist dictatorship and the declared ambition of the Communist Party and their prose-lytising activities that we are bound to resist, and that is what makes this great world cleavage which I mentioned when I opened my remarks.
There are also big administrative and industrial targets behind the Iron Curtain, and any effective deterrent policy must have the power to paralyse them all at the outset, or shortly after. There are also the Soviet submarine bases and other naval targets which will need early attention. Unless we make a contribution of our own—that is the point which I am pressing—we cannot be sure that in an emergency the resources: of other Powers would be planned exactly as we would wish, or that the targets which would threaten us most would be given what we consider the necessary priority, or the deserved priority, in the first few hours.
These targets might be of such cardinal importance that it would really be a matter of life and death for us. All this, I think, must be borne in mind in deciding our policy about the conventional forces, to which I will come later, the existing Services.
Meanwhile, the United States has many times the nuclear power of Soviet Russia—I avoid any attempt to give exact figures—and they have, of course, far more effective means of delivering. Our moral and military support of the United States and our possession of nuclear weapons of the highest quality and on an appreciable scale, together with their means of delivery, will greatly reinforce the deterrent power of the free world, and will strengthen our influence within the free world. That, at any rate, is the policy we have decided to pursue. That is what we are now doing, and I am thankful that it is endorsed by a mass of respon-
1898
sible opinion on both sides of the House, and, I believe, by the great majority of the nation.
A vast quantity of information, some true, some exaggerated much out of proportion, has been published about the hydrogen bomb. The truth has inevitably been mingled with fiction, and I am glad to say that panic has not occurred. Panic would not necessarily make for peace. That is one reason why I have been most anxious that responsible discussions on this matter should not take place on the B.B.C. or upon the television, and I thought that I was justified in submitting that view of Her Majesty's Government to the authorities, which they at once accepted—very willingly accepted.
Panic would not necessarily make for peace even in this country. There are many countries where a certain wave of opinion may arise and swing so furiously into action that decisive steps may be taken from which there is no recall. As it is, the world population goes on its daily journey despite its sombre impression and earnest longing for relief. That is the way we are going on now.
I shall content myself with saying about the power of this weapon, the hydrogen bomb, that apart from all the statements about blast and heat effects over increasingly wide areas there are now to be considered the consequences of "fall out," as it is called, of wind-borne radio-active particles. There is both an immediate direct effect on human beings who are in the path of such a cloud and an indirect effect through animals, grass and vegetables, which pass on these contagions to human beings through food.
This would confront many who escaped the direct effects of the explosion with poisoning, or starvation, or both. Imagination stands appalled. There are, of course, the palliatives and precautions of a courageous Civil Defence, and about that the Home Secretary will be speaking later on tonight. But our best protection lies, as I am sure the House will be convinced, in successful deterrents operating from a foundation of sober, calm and tireless vigilance.
Moreover, a curious paradox has emerged. Let me put it simply. After a certain point has been passed it may be said, "The worse things get the better."

1899
The broad effect of the latest developments is to spread almost indefinitely and at least to a vast extent the area of mortal danger. This should certainly increase the deterrent upon Soviet Russia by putting her enormous spaces and scattered population on an equality or near-equality of vulnerability with our small densely-populated island and with Western Europe.
I cannot regard this development as adding to our dangers. We have reached the maximum already. On the contrary, to this form of attack continents are vulnerable as well as islands. Hitherto, crowded countries, as I have said, like the United Kingdom and Western Europe, have had this outstanding vulnerability to carry. But the hydrogen bomb, with its vast range of destruction and the even wider area of contamination, would be effective also against nations whose population hitherto has been so widely dispersed over large land areas as to make them feel that they were not in any danger at all.
They, too, become highly vulnerable; not yet equally perhaps, but, still, highly and increasingly vulnerable. Here again we see the value of deterrents, immune against surprise and well understood by all persons on both sides—I repeat "on both sides"—who have the power to control events. That is why I have hoped for a long time for a top level conference where these matters could be put plainly and bluntly from one friendly visitor to the conference to another.
Then it may well be that we shall by a process of sublime irony have reached a stage in this story where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and survival the twin brother of annihilation. Although the Americans have developed weapons capable of producing all the effects I have mentioned, we believe that the Soviets so far have tested by explosion only a type of bomb of intermediate power.
There is no reason why, however, they should not develop some time within the next four, three or even two years more advanced weapons and full means to deliver them on North American targets. Indeed, there is every reason to believe that within that period they will. In trying to look ahead like this we must be careful ourselves to avoid the error of
1900
comparing the present state of our preparations with the stage which the Soviets may reach in three or four years' time. It is a major error of thought to contrast the Soviet position three or four years hence with our own position today. It is a mistake to do this, either in the comparatively precise details of aircraft development or in the measureless sphere of nuclear weapons.
The threat of hydrogen attack on these islands lies in the future. It is not with us now. According to the information that I have been able to obtain—I have taken every opportunity to consult all the highest authorities at our disposal—the only country which is able to deliver today a full-scale nuclear attack with hydrogen bombs at a few hours' notice is the United States. That surely is an important fact, and from some points of view and to some of us it is not entirely without comfort.
It is conceivable that Soviet Russia, fearing a nuclear attack before she has caught up with the United States and created deterrents of her own, as she might argue that they are, might attempt to bridge the gulf by a surprise attack with such nuclear weapons as she has already. American superiority in nuclear weapons, reinforced by Britain, must, therefore, be so organised as to make it clear that no such surprise attack would prevent immediate retaliation on a far larger scale. This is an essential of the deterrent policy.
For this purpose, not only must the nuclear superiority of the Western Powers be stimulated in every possible way, but their means of delivery of bombs must be expanded, improved, and varied. It is even probable, though we have not been told about it outside the N.A.T.O. sphere, that a great deal of this has been already done by the United States. We should aid them in every possible way. I will not attempt to go into details, but it is known that bases have been and are being established in as many parts of the world as possible and that over all rest the United States Strategic Air Force, which is in itself a deterrent of the highest order and is in ceaseless readiness.
The Soviet Government probably knows, in general terms, of the policy that is being pursued, and of the present United States strength and our own growing addition to it. Thus, they should

1901
be convinced that a surprise attack could not exclude immediate retaliation. As one might say to them, "Although you might kill millions of our peoples, and cause widespread havoc by a surprise attack, we could, within a few hours of this outrage, certainly deliver several indeed many times the weight of nuclear material which you have used, and continue retaliation on that same scale." "We have," we could say, "already hundreds of bases for attack from all angles and have made an intricate study of suitable targets." Thus, it seems to me with some experience of wartime talks, you might go to dinner and have a friendly evening. I should not be afraid to talk things over as far as they can be. This, and the hard facts, would make the deterrent effective.
I must make one admission, and any admission is formidable. The deterrent does not cover the case of lunatics or dictators in the mood of Hitler when he found himself in his final dug-out. That is a blank. Happily, we may find methods of protecting ourselves, if we were all agreed, against that.
All these considerations lead me to believe that, on a broad view, the Soviets would be ill-advised to embark on major aggression within the next three or four years. One must always consider the interests of other people when you are facing a particular situation. Their interests may be the only guide that is available. We may calculate, therefore, that world war will not break out within that time. If, at the end of that time, there should be a supreme conflict, the weapons which I have described this afternoon would be available to both sides, and it would be folly to suppose that they would not be used. Our pre-cautionary dispositions and preparations must, therefore, be based on the assumption that, if war should come, these weapons would be used.
I repeat, therefore, that during the next three or four years the free world should, and will, retain an overwhelming superiority in hydrogen weapons. During that period it is most unlikely that the Russians would deliberately embark on major war or attempt a surprise attack, either of which would bring down upon them at once a crushing weight of nuclear retaliation. In three or four years' time, it may be even less, the scene will be
1902
changed. The Soviets will probably stand possessed of hydrogen bombs and the means of delivering them not only on the United Kingdom but also on North American targets. They may then have reached a stage, not indeed of parity with the United States and Britain but of what is called ''saturation."
I must explain this term of art. "Saturation" in this connection means the point where, although one Power is stronger than the other, perhaps much stronger, both are capable of inflicting crippling or quasi-mortal injury on the other with what they have got. It does not follow, however, that the risk of war will then be greater. Indeed, it is arguable that it will be less, for both sides will then realise that global war would result in mutual annihilation.
Major war of the future will differ, therefore, from anything we have known in the past in this one significant respect, that each side, at the outset, will suffer what it dreads the most, the loss of everything that it has ever known of. The deterrents will grow continually in value. In the past, an aggressor has been tempted by the hope of snatching an early advantage. In future, he may be deterred by the knowledge that the other side has the certain power to inflict swift, inescapable and crushing retaliation.
Of course, we should all agree that a worldwide international agreement on disarmament is the goal at which we should aim. The Western democracies disarmed themselves at the end of the war. The Soviet Government did not disarm, and the Western nations were forced to rearm, though only partially, after the Soviets and Communists had dominated all China and half Europe. That is the present position. It is easy, of course, for the Communists to say now, "Let us ban all nuclear weapons." Communist ascendancy in conventional weapons would then become overwhelming. That might bring peace, but only peace in the form of the subjugation of the Free World to the Communist system.
I shall not detain the House very much longer, and I am sorry to be so long. The topic is very intricate, I am anxious to repeat and to emphasise the one word which is the theme of my remarks, namely, "Deterrent." That is the main theme.

1903
The hydrogen bomb has made an astounding incursion into the structure of our lives and thoughts. Its impact is prodigious and profound, but I do' not agree with those who say, "Let us sweep away forthwith all our existing defence services and concentrate our energy and resources on nuclear weapons and their immediate ancillaries." The policy of the deterrent cannot rest on nuclear weapons alone. We must, together with our N.A.T.O. allies, maintain the defensive shield in Western Europe.
Unless the N.A.T.O. Powers had effective forces there on the ground and could make a front, there would be nothing to prevent piecemeal advance and encroachment by the Communists in this time of so-called peace. By successive infiltrations, the Communists could progressively undermine the security of Europe. Unless we were prepared to unleash a full-scale nuclear war as soon as some local incident occurs in some distant country, we must have conventional forces in readiness to deal with such situations as they arise.
We must, therefore, honour our undertaking to maintain our contribution to the N.A.T.O. forces in Europe in time of peace. In war, this defensive shield would be of vital importance, for we must do our utmost to hold the Soviet and satellite forces at arms' length in order to prevent short-range air and rocket attack on these islands. Thus, substantial strength in conventional forces has still a vital part to play in the policy of the deterrent. It is perhaps of even greater importance in the cold war.
Though world war may be prevented by the deterrent power of nuclear weapons, the Communists may well resort to military action in furtherance of their policy of infiltration and encroachment in many parts of the world. There may well be limited wars on the Korean model, with limited objectives. We must be able to play our part in these, if called upon by the United Nations organisation. In the conditions of today, this is also an aspect of our Commonwealth responsibility. We shall need substantial strength in conventional forces to fulfil our world-wide obligations in these days of uneasy peace and extreme bad temper.
To sum up this part of the argument, of course, the development of nuclear
1904
weapons will affect the shape and organisation of the Armed Forces and also of Civil Defence. We have entered a period of transition in which the past and the future will overlap. But it is an error to suppose that, because of these changes, our traditional forces can be cast away or superseded. The tasks of the Army, Navy and Air Force in this transition period are set forth with clarity in the Defence White Paper. The means by which these duties will be met are explained in more detail in the Departmental Papers which have been laid before the House by the three Service Ministers.
No doubt, nothing is perfect; certainly, nothing is complete, but, considering that these arrangements have been made in the first year after the apparition of the hydrogen bomb, the far-seeing and progressive adaptability which is being displayed by all three Services is remarkable. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] I understand that there is to be a motion of censure. Well, certainly, nothing could be more worthy of censure than to try to use the inevitable administrative difficulties of the transitional stage as a utensil of party politics and would-be electioneering. I am not saying that anyone is doing it; we shall see when it comes to the vote.
The future shape of Civil Defence is also indicated in broad outline in the Defence White Paper. This outline will be filled in as the preparation of the new plans proceeds, but the need for an effective system of Civil Defence is surely beyond dispute. It presents itself today in its noblest aspect, namely, the Christian duty of helping fellow mortals in distress. Rescue, salvage and ambulance work have always been the core of Civil Defence, and no city, no family nor any honourable man or woman can repudiate this duty and accept from others help which they are not prepared to fit themselves to render in return. If war comes, great numbers may be relieved of their duty by death, but none must deny it as long as they live. If they do, they might perhaps be put in what is called "Coventry." [Laughter.] I am speaking of the tradition, and not of any particular locality.
The argument which I have been endeavouring to unfold and consolidate gives us in this island an interlude. Let us not waste it. Let us hope we shall use it to augment or at least to prolong

1905
our security and that of mankind. But how? There are those who believe, or at any rate say, "If we have the protection of the overwhelmingly powerful United States, we need not make the hydrogen bomb for ourselves or build a fleet of bombers for its delivery. We can leave that to our friends across the ocean. Our contribution should be criticism of any unwise policy into which they may drift or plunge. We should throw our hearts and consciences into that."
Personally, I cannot feel that we should have much influence over their policy or actions, wise or unwise, while we are largely dependent, as we are today, upon their protection. We, too, must possess substantial deterrent power of our own. We must also never allow, above all, I hold, the growing sense of unity and brotherhood between the United Kingdom and the United States and throughout the English-speaking world to be injured or retarded. Its maintenance, its stimulation and its fortifying is one of the first duties of every person who wishes to see peace in the world and wishes to see the survival of this country.
To conclude, mercifully, there is time and hope if we combine patience and courage. All deterrents will improve and gain authority during the next ten years. By that time, the deterrent may well reach its acme and reap its final reward. The day may dawn when fair play, love for one's fellow men, respect for justice and freedom, will enable tormented generations to march forth serene and triumphant from the hideous epoch in which we have to dwell. Meanwhile, never flinch, never weary, never despair.
4.30 p.m.
Mr. E. Shinwell: We shall all agree that the right hon. Gentleman has made an impressive speech—one which will undoubtedly make its impact on many millions of people in our country and throughout the world. With many of his sentiments those of us on this side of the House are in full accord. That we should make as our primary objective peace through disarmament has long been the policy of this party, and this policy, upon which the Government, with qualifications, have embarked, should be pursued with the utmost expedition.
1906
Nor should we permit deep-seated prejudices or ideological differences to impede our progress, for it may well be, disliking Communist dictatorship as we all do, that there are some people—I should not say in our country; maybe in Europe and in Northern America and eleswhere—who, despite their intense dislike of totalitarianism, whatever form it assumes, may prefer Communist control to total extinction.
Prejudices must, therefore, be set aside and, in pursuance of our policy of total disarmament—because, as the Prime Minister has stated, nothing less will suffice—we must obviously be prepared to make concessions, as, indeed, the other side must be called upon to do. No rigid doctrinaire attitude, standing on points of punctilio, will do. Of course, we all recognise the difficulties which beset the search for this primary objective and the intransigence of the Soviet representatives at the Disarmament Conference early in the year. We all hope that the present conference will see a change of heart. But there may also be difficulties on our side, or, if not on the side of the United Kingdom, at any rate on the side of the United States of America, for there, as is natural, there is an intense hatred of Communism and all that it means.
I make these preliminary observations, first of all to indicate that we are with the Government in the search for disarmament, and also—I say this with all modesty—as a warning against intransigence on our side, whether from the United Kingdom representatives or from others.
Although the Prime Minister has made an impressive oration, I must say that there was nothing original in what he said. It has all been said before. We have on record the declarations of President Eisenhower. We have the record of the right hon. Gentleman's speeches in 1950, when he spoke from this side of the House about the frightful dangers which would beset the world if the atom bomb were unleashed. I recall that when he spoke to us on that occasion he talked about a speech which he had made in 1948, when he had referred to the same subject. No; there is nothing original in what the right hon. Gentleman said, nor is there anything particularly original——
Mr. David Logan Mr. David Logan (Liverpool, Scotland Division) rose——
Hon. Members: Order.
Mr. Shinwell:—in the proposals to provide a deterrent.
I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the provision of an effective deterrent was precisely our purpose in the creation of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. The right hon. Gentleman has said that, unfortunately, it has now been discovered—and, indeed, it is the admission of all the military experts at S.H.A.P.E., operating under the umbrella of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation—that that suggested deterrent is no longer effective; and it is precisely because of its ineffectiveness, having regard to the possible situation which may emerge, that they have now departed from the conventional sphere and emerged into the sphere of the manufacture and ultimate use of nuclear weapons.
I want, first, to ask a question which I regard as of the utmost importance. In my view, it is the key to the discussion which we are having on this occasion. When I looked at the White Paper, and in particular at paragraphs 21 and 22, which refer to the possibility of an attack by an enemy, presumably the Soviet Union, and a retaliation on the part of N.A.T.O. with whom we are associated, I was rather confused—I make that confession at once—because I thought that the intention was—and this was implicit in the paragraphs to which I referred—that we should use nuclear weapons, the H-bomb and the rest, as a means of retaliation only if we were attacked with nuclear weapons. That was my assumption.
Having gone further into the matter and, in particular, having consulted the views of the Deputy Supreme Commander at S.H.A.P.E., Field Marshal Lord Montgomery, I am bound to say that I have revised my view. It now seems clear that N.A.T.O. have decided—and I ask hon. Members to note this point—that in the event of a conventional attack of any sort or kind, our intention is to retaliate with all the force of nuclear weapons. If the Prime Minister does not agree with what I have just said, no doubt he will comment upon it. Let me read the relevant statement which bears on this matter.
Let it be quite clear, as there has been criticism of Field Marshal Montgomery
1908
on the ground that sometimes he goes off at a tangent and speaks for himself, that obviously he could not have uttered, without consultation with General Gruenther and the staff on N.A.T.O., the words I am now about to repeat. This is what he said:
"I want to make it absolutely clear that we at S.H.A.P.E. are basing all our operational planning on using atomic and thermo-nuclear weapons in our defence. That is, it is no longer, they may possibly be used, it is very definitely, they will be used if we are attacked."
He goes on to provide the reason:
"The reason for this action is that we cannot match the strength that could be brought against us unless we use nuclear weapons."
Our political chiefs have never shown any great enthusiasm for giving us the numbers to be able to do without using such weapons.
That is very precise; it is very clear; it is very disturbing. In effect, what it means is that, should a conventional attack be mounted—it may be in any part of the West, it may be the Mediterranean, it may be in Scandinavia because I assume the Russian military advisers would never urge that an attack should be mounted at the strongest point selected by their enemy and there are some very vulnerable and weak points under the N.A.T.O. Command, particularly in the North—we would then have recourse, without hesitation or reservation, to the use of nuclear weapons.
It may well be that in the circumstances—I rather gathered from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that this was his view—that would be the right course to take because, after all, if we are aware of impending defeat as a result of a conventional attack by an enemy possessing overwhelming superiority in conventional weapons, clearly we should retaliate with all we had got.
We had better be clear about it, because there are certain implications. The right hon. Gentleman was not clear about this in his very interesting remarks about the dreadful consequences of nuclear attack. There is some speculation about it, but all those who have studied this problem as, no doubt, most hon. Members have done because the documents areavailable—the United States has furnished voluminous documents on this subject; they are available to all hon. Members in the Library and contained

1909
in the records; they are also well known to the Civil Defence organisation of the Government, if it can be called an organisation—agree about the dreadful consequences, indeed terrifying consequences.
If the Russians should attack us and we respond on their wide open spaces, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman said, there is one vulnerable target beyond all others. That is in London and in our ports. Does anyone really believe that we could withstand an attack of that kind? If so, for how long? Chaos, confusion, dislocation, everything disorganised—that is the prospect. "Prospect" is not the right term to use, but that is what lies before us.
Of course, we should retaliate. But the right hon. Gentleman said that millions of people will be killed. There is no particular satisfaction derived from the fact that when you are killed someone else will be killed after you——
The Prime Minister: It may prevent it.
Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman, in his interjection, misunderstands our position.
I have said what it was necessary to say about disarmament. We agree that a deterrent of some kind is necessary and it may be that this is the most effective deterrent. If it is to be a deterrent, let it be really effective in order to avoid the possibility of a dreadful clash. There we agree. Where we part company is when the right hon. Gentleman wishes to pursue the deterrent objective, this dreadful deterrent objective, at the same time knowing what the consequences will be if an attack is launched and we retaliate, or if attack meets attack simultaneously. What we want to know is, why does the right hon. Gentleman cling to all the paraphernalia of the organisation, which might have served our purposes in bygone wars, but is not relevant to the situation which the right hon. Gentleman has described?
Before I proceed on this matter I should like to say one word to the right hon. Gentleman, more in sorrow than in anger, about his attitude when he sat on this side of the House. Hon. Members will recall how he used to say that if only he were in the Government, he and his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, their influence in foreign circles and inter-
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national circles would be of such a character that peace could be promoted. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] Listen to the applause on the other side of the House. I did not detect any prospect of peace in anything the right hon. Gentleman said. The uncertainty, the insecurity, the fears, the apprehensions, the alarms—I go further, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman said—the feeling of panic which must exist in the minds of millions of people—no, the right hon. Gentleman has failed in that respect and I shall tell him where his failure lies.
First, I come to the subject of Civil Defence—for note that if we should find that our deterrent is ineffective the civilian population will expect to have the assurance of some protection. Does anyone discover in the Command Paper, in that part dealing with Civil Defence, any hope of protection? From what the right hon. Gentleman said, the difficulties are very grave and nothing that his right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary can say to us can obscure the fact that there is no adequate defence for the civilian population against nuclear attack.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to note this fact, or rather factor, in the situation. The assumption is that in the event of war, a nuclear war, we should be attacked from the air, or that we should attack from the air. I am not so sure. If all the evidence that is in our possession—I am sure it must be in the possession of the Government—is correct, or anywhere near correct, the Russians before long—if not now—will be capable of launching rockets with atomic warheads of the nuclear variety from sites in East Germany. They will be capable of reaching London, 450 miles away, or Paris, 400 miles away, and capable of as much destruction—not so much as a hydrogen bomb, maybe—as anything that occurred, not in one night during the last war, but during months of that war. That is what we have to face, so it must not be assumed that the civil population are likely to derive any satisfaction or comfort from what appears in the White Paper on the subject of Civil Defence.
I am not going to discuss Civil Defence at any length, because Believe that most hon. Members are not only acquainted with the subject but are convinced that no adequate defence is possible. There may be dispersal on a minor scale or provision for dealing with casualties and the

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like, but I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman or the Minister of Defence, whose responsibility it is—because, after all, Civil Defence should be the fourth arm of our defence organisation—what kind of organisation is in existence to deal with protection for the civil population? There is a Director of Civil Defence, associated with the Home Office, a decentralised organisation of a kind throughout the country, and local authorities at their wits' end, not knowing what to do.
There is provision of £70 million in this year's Estimates for the protection of the civil population, including the amount set aside for stockpiling. Is that the way we propose to handle the protection of the civil population? If, on the other hand, the Government say there is no protection, the public should be informed. They ought to know where they are. I believe that the Government feel that because there is no adequate protection possible, they must rely exclusively on the deterrent in the hope that war can be avoided.
I come now to the question: where is the deterrent? Where is the United Kingdom deterrent? Three years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman spoke about the danger of an atomic attack and made us aware of it, one would have thought that, along with his Government, he would have created an organisation or a plan, at least in broad outline—I ask for no more than that—which would have enabled us long before the expiry of three years of Conservative Government to ascertain what was in the Government's mind.
What was in last year's White Paper? There was a reference to the dangers of atomic attack and broken-back warfare resulting. There is no talk about broken-back warfare now. That has gone by the board. How can there be broken-back warfare when millions of people are destroyed as a result of the launching of the hydrogen bomb, when ports are destroyed, when shipping and movements and transport are dislocated? If that is not envisaged by the right hon. Gentleman, then I am bound to say that there is a great deal that he has got to learn about this subject upon which he pretends to be a great authority.
I should like to say this to the right hon. Gentleman—and it ought to be said.
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He regards himself as the greatest military expert in the world, but I simply do not believe it any longer. Whatever he may have done in the past, it is certainly not right now. We rely—and the right hon. Gentleman will not deny it; there is no dispute about this—at the present time on the only deterrent there is, not through N.A.T.O., not in conventional forces, not even if all are combined. We rely at present exclusively on the American deterrent because that nation is in possession of the hydrogen bomb.
Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: In Malaya?
Mr. Shinwell: Someone mentions Malaya. These are the small minds that work after the massive oration we have had from the right hon. Gentleman on the consequences of atomic attack. Malaya is not in the picture at all in relation to this matter. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] Of course, it is not. In any event, I would not brag too much about what has been done in Malaya under the Tory Government. They have been in office for more than three years and they have talked about the great things that General Templer did; but they have got the same troops there as they had three years ago and the position is just as bad as it was then. I want to assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am not deriving any comfort from that fact. I think it is deplorable that it should be so, and I do not want to see our resources wasted in that fashion.
I repeat, the only deterrent we have after three years of Tory Government is not a British deterrent, not a N.A.T.O. deterrent, but an American deterrent, and upon this we exclusively rely. The right hon. Gentleman has said that in three or four years' time the situation will be different because we shall have the hydrogen bomb. In the meantime, we have to hope that Russia will not mount an attack, or change her mind. We have to hope that the right hon. Gentleman will use his profound influence in international circles to persuade the Russians not to do anything wrong or immoral. I am not sure that the Russians will be inclined to listen to the Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "They will not listen to the right hon. Gentleman."] It may be that they will not listen to anybody, but it is obvious that they are not prepared to listen to anybody on the other side of

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the House, at least as far as we can ascertain.
However, that is not the whole complaint against the right hon. Gentleman. When he became Prime Minister again, what did he say to the House? He said that he looked at the Ministry of Defence and at the Service Departments and found nothing there. What did he do? In his condition of nudity he decided to create seven battalions. Where are they now? They have gone with the wind. Then the right hon. Gentleman came to the House and, with a flourish, declared his intention to create mobile columns of a combative character. We do not hear a word about them now. In the White Paper nothing is said about mobile, combative columns. All we speak about now are mobile columns for the purpose of training men in Civil Defence.
Where is Anti-aircraft Command? It is no use the Government complaining about criticism in this respect, because 18 months ago the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence, now the Minister of Works, declared, in reply to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson), that it was the intention of the Government to continue with Anti-aircraft Command even if guided missiles came over. But Anti-aircraft Command has been substantially reduced until now it is hardly worth talking about. With dislocation, it will go.
The right hon. Gentleman must feel more naked now than three years ago. He has divested one garment: after another. In fact, it is the best: striptease performance I have seen for a long time. All this in spite of the fact that the Government have spent more than £4,000 million in the process.
Air Commodore A. V. Harvey: When the right hon. Gentleman gave up the seals of office when did he expect the deterrent which he had arranged to be available?
Mr. Shinwell: We were not speaking in terms of atomic deterrents at that time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No, we were faced—[Interruption.] Hon. Members had better wait for it. They should not be too impatient. The facts are that before the Korean War there was international tension, but there was no question of any attack by nuclear weapons.
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When the Korean War occurred, all the conventional manpower and resources and equipment were made available in order to make our contribution. The present Government could not have come along subsequent to the end of the Korean affair and boasted about our successes in that affair if our men had not been equipped. We had all the conventional equipment that we required. Everything that has been said about a deterrent has come from the present Prime Minister since he assumed office.
The Prime Minister: The atom bomb.
Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman speaks about the atom bomb. We did not believe that the atom bomb in itself would prove an effective deterrent. My right hon. Friend the Member for Waltham stow, West (Mr. Attlee) never came to the House and said that we were going to manufacture the atom bomb to—[An Hon. Member: "The right hon. Gentleman never told us."] Hon. Members are mistaken, because the present Prime Minister asked my right hon. Friend about the matter and he received a reply, and it was then known to the House that we had agreed to manufacture the atom bomb. That was well known and I should have thought that hon. Members were well aware of it. But it was never regarded as a deterrent in the sense that the right hon. Gentleman has spoken this afternoon.
Captain Christopher Soames: What was it for?
Mr. Shinwell: The manufacture of the atom bomb followed on the decisions that we reached at the end of the war resulting from scientific discoveries both in this country and the United States, and it was decided to proceed with this, not necessarily as a deterrent against war. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh.'] If hon. Members wish to cherish the illusion that there is an argument at their disposal they can do so, and no doubt they will deploy it in due course.
If ever a Motion of censure was justified, this Amendment is justified, because of the content of the Prime Minister's speech this afternoon, for he has not said a word about defence in itself and there has been no defence of the Service Departments. The Service Departments, he said, had been adapting themselves well to the situation in the last three years.

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The right hon. Gentleman used to ask us when he was in Opposition, "Are we getting value for our money? "I repeat that question. Are we getting value for our money? Yesterday, it was ascertained in the House, as a result of Questions, that more than £300 million had been spent in the last year or two on the provision of air-frames and aero-engines, but what is the position now? Are we well equipped with aircraft? The Government will not say, "Yes" to that question.
In the matter of aircraft defence, anything which the Government have at present, for example, the Canberras which, according to the Memorandum on the Air Estimates, are regarded as some of our best machines, was provided during the lifetime of the late Government. That will not be denied. The Hunter, which, as the Minister of Supply said, is regarded as one of the finest aircraft in the world, was ordered by the Labour Government, and in the air document there is a statement of a most convincing kind that our present radar network is merely an improvement on what was started by the Labour Government. Therefore, the Government have nothing to brag about, inasmuch as that if there is anything satisfactory in the air defence position it is not attributable to what the present Government have done but to what the Labour Government did when we were in office.
I wish to refer further to the Memorandum on the Air Estimates. This is an example of the Government's planning. I refer to paragraph 9, and I think that I had better read the whole of it. This is what it says:
"The next twelve months will see the 'V' bombers beginning to come into service. But much more is involved than re-equipment with modern aircraft."—
I ask hon. Members to note the remainder:
"We must select personnel of the highest quality and train them specially. We must provide the bases required in peace and war, bearing in mind that the 'V' bomber force must be capable of completing its mission even though a surprise attack might first have been launched upon this country. We must perfect methods of operation which would ensure success however difficult the conditions."
The Government say that they "must do" this and "must do" that, but, having regard to the expenditure involved, we
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are entitled to know what the Government have achieved during their three years of office.
The same thing applies to the Army. If any man should hang his head in shame it should be the Secretary of State for War, when we consider the Memorandum on the Army Estimates and what it involves in confusion and disorganisation, in the admission of the Secretary of State for War that he does not know what to do because of the reduction in Anti-Aircraft Command, because of the shortage of technicians, because of the shortage of Regulars, because he has no longer seven battalions in the mobile, combative columns, because the Government are now switching National Service men from combative tasks to Civil Defence training.
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head)The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head) indicated dissent.
Mr. Shinwell: That is what is conveyed in the Memorandum presented by the right hon. Gentleman, and that will be developed in the course of subsequent debate.
I claim that all the contentions which are contained in our Motion of censure are amply justified. I agree that many of the sentiments which have been expressed by the Prime Minister are acceptable to us—to pursue disarmament, to proceed with a deterrent—but in the field of achievement, in the field of planning for the future and in the decision to use nuclear weapons in the event of conventional attack, and in the absence of adequate or even partial protection for the civilian population, the Government have lamentably failed and should be indicted accordingly.
For the next three years, what are we to expect if the present Government remain in office? Can we be assured of effective planning? Is there an indication of effective planning in the White Paper? In my judgment, there is little or none at all. Let us hope that our disarmament objective will meet with some success because, in my view—in the absence of total disarmament, and nothing less than total disarmament, not achieved immediately but progressively; in the absence of a change of heart, greater good will and readiness to divest ourselves of prejudices; and unless we can succeed in impressing that view on a disordered and intense world—all the

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deterrents that can be produced can only lead, in the long run, to the destruction of hundreds of millions of people throughout the world. That is a terrible prospect to face. Anything that can be done by the Government through the medium of diplomatic channels should be effected.
I end by saying that I do not believe that the remedy lies in the hands of the Minister of Defence. It is much more likely that it resides in the hands of the Foreign Secretary. If he fails, there is nothing that the Minister of Defence can do to save the people of this country.
I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"regrets that the Statement on Defence, 1955, while recognising that thermonuclear weapons have effected a revolution in the character of warfare, and that until effective world disarmament has been achieved it is necessary as a deterrent to aggression to rely on the threat of using thermonuclear weapons, fails to make proposals for the reorganisation of Her Majesty's Forces and of Civil Defence, to indicate what future defence expenditure may be called for; or to explain the grave and admitted deficiencies in the weapons with which Her Majesty's Forces are at present furnished, in spite of the expenditure of some £4,000 million for defence purposes over the past: three years."
5.10 p.m.
Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: On rising to address the House for the first time, I hope that I may claim the customary indulgence which is extended on these occasions. I hope also that the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) will forgive me if I do not follow him in the intricacies of his arguments, but I bow to the convention that a maiden speech should as far as possible avoid unduly contentious matter. Neither can I aspire to follow my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the majesty and sweep of his opening speech, in which he dealt with the great issues raised by the hydrogen bomb. I hope to refer to one or two far lesser but, none the less, by no means unimportant matters.
It is at least satisfactory to be debating a White Paper in which there is so much to be discussed. I begin by congratulating the Government on the slight reduction in expenditure. Whatever the causes and however small the amount, it is at least and at last a step in the right direction. And yet I have little doubt that there is still room for great and continuing economies. In particular, I have in mind
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the kind of expenditure which does not contribute directly towards fighting strength. I beg my right hon. Friends the Service Ministers to keep all such expenditure under a constant and somewhat unfriendly scrutiny.
With the permission of the House, I wish to say something of the relationship between the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. But first, however, let me answer a criticism which, despite what is written in the White Paper and despite what we heard from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, will, I feel, linger in the minds of many hon. Members. Why bother, they may ask, about matters of organisation which are dwarfed and rendered academic by the awful reality of the hydrogen bomb? I do not question that in the event of unlimited nuclear war immense destruction would fall on this Kingdom as an industrial country and that, pending great and imaginative extensions of home defence, that destruction would be accompanied by the killing of great numbers of the population.
I do not question these things; nothing is gained by trying to conceal or to forget them. But surely, the sanction of nuclear weapons has grown so tremendous that reluctance to use them might persist even after war had broken out. Indeed, one often hears it argued that it would almost be against this country's interests to take the initiative in starting atomic war, quite apart from the fearful moral issue that would be involved. For these reasons, and whether rightly or wrongly, an aggressor might well conclude that a swift campaign for limited objectives could safely be undertaken without provoking atomic war. But it would have to be swift; and this brings one to an important conclusion.
If we wish to avert war altogether, we must in no circumstances deprive ourselves of the means of defence by the older arms. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] We must never reach a permanent position in which we can defend ourselves only by the use of atomic weapons. That was all right when America had a near monopoly. As we have heard from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister today, it is, no doubt, still all right, and it will probably continue to be all right for a few more years, but there will come a time when it ceases to be all right, when our lead lessens

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sufficiently. To put it another way, the deterrent effect of the hydrogen bomb is so gigantic that once it becomes mutual it may no longer prevent aggression for limited aims, if those aims can be achieved quickly and without the use of atomic weapons.
Nothing in this line of argument affects our need for nuclear weapons of our own, and nothing that I have said lessens the risk that ultimately some madman may let loose atomic war. There will be no final safety until science can discover a radical counter to nuclear expldsives, until human intellect, which, after all, evolved these monstrous weapons, may learn one day to master them. Meanwhile, there is every justification for discussing such humdrum things as inter-Service organisation, which are at least of immediate concern to Parliament and to the Government.
There are those who think that ever since 1911 we have made a cardinal blunder by allowing ourselves to become involved in Continental warfare and that this has led to an attempt to maintain an Army which is too large in relation to our sea and air commitments. But we have always needed a large Army to defeat a Continental foe, and ever since M. Bleriot first flew the Channel it can be argued—as, indeed, it often has been argued—that the defence of this kingdom has moved to the Continent. Thus, I for one do not question the need for a strong Army. Indeed, the Army is fortunate in being required to fulfil a role which is not only essential, but is also exclusive in the sense that it calls for training and qualifications which are quite different from those required of airmen and of seamen.
It is when we turn to the relationship between the Navy and the Air Force that we find cause for anxiety and that we enter an area of the strongest controversy. Many people in this country, and, I believe, many hon. Members in this House, are deeply concerned about the future of the Navy. Of course, I welcome the re-statement in the White Paper of the Navy's role, and I welcome equally the unusually long and clear explanatory statement which my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty has issued with the Navy Estimates. These statements certainly make it clear,
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if it was ever in doubt, that warships still play a part in our defence. Yet I doubt whether, taken by themselves, they will for long allay the concern which is so widely felt within the Navy with regard to its future size and composition.
My own view is that the future of the Navy is inextricably bound up with the future of the Royal Air Force. There is a wide field in which the functions of the two Services overlap. The defence against invasion, the defence of our trade routes, the blockade of an enemy, the carriage of troops and even, to some extent, the support of an Army are all functions which can be entrusted either to naval or to air forces, or to a combination of both. The extent to which it is expedient to rely on one arm rather than on the other is nearly always a highly technical and highly contentious question. It is, indeed, a question on which laymen find it hard to reach conclusions or even to adjudicate with any confidence. Yet so long as the expert advisers are officers from two different Services who—and let us be quite frank about this—have an interest in seeing their own view prevail, it is too much to expect that Ministers will always receive wholly objective advice.
There is much danger in this, and the danger is aggravated by the fact that for many years technical progress has usually tended to enlarge the scope of aircraft and to restrict and diminish that of warships. There are grounds today for believing that this trend may be about to change. The fact remains that hitherto the protagonists of a strong Navy have been forced into the embarrassing position of always seeming to deny or to belittle progress, while the champions of the air have too often been tempted to exaggerate, and sometimes grossly to anticipate, the march of invention.
May I give two current examples to illustrate this clash of interest? There is a school of thought today which believes that within the next 20 years the antisubmarine helicopter will not only have replaced all conventional fixed-wing aircraft but also all surface warships in antisubmarine operations. Whatever the merits of the case may be, it is a purely naval problem in the open seas; that is to say, it is a problem for the Admiralty whether we protect our convoys with escorts of frigates or with ships carrying

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helicopters, and it is a problem on which we can expect unbiassed judgments and decisions. But when we turn to the protection of coastal shipping, the position is very different because, if shore-based helicopters are to replace warships, the process will be accompanied by an expansion of the Air Force at the expense of the Navy; that is to say, at the expense of the careers of quite a number of officers now wearing naval uniform.
My second example cuts the other way. Imaginative people have argued for many years that some kind of warship—possibly submarines, but that is irrelevant—capable of launching ballistic rockets will before long become more certain and more economical agents for so-called strategic bombing than are the long-range bombing aircraft of today. And I must say that there are solid technical and strategic reasons to support that view. Its acceptance, however, would divert considerable funds from the Air Force back to the Navy.
After reflecting on these problems, I reached the conclusion about six years ago that the most prudent course might be to fuse the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force into a single Service as equal partners, and nothing that has happened in the years which have followed has led me to modify that conclusion. I can see no other certain way of bringing to an end the interminable and sterile arguments that have gone on for so many years between the champions of the Navy and the champions of the Royal Air Force. I was much encouraged a year ago to learn that the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) has apparently reached a somewhat similar conclusion, as also I believe has my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Merton and Morden (Captain Ryder), together with certain other hon. Members on both sides of the House.
Those of us who advocate fusion can take comfort from the thought that there is much that is common in the training of an airman and a seaman. Both require knowledge of navigation, of radio communications, a ground work in electronics and engineering and, with the advent of guided missiles, both will need a fairly common weapon training. But if I were asked what is the secret of being a good seaman or a good pilot, I would say it
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was the same thing: an eye for relative movement, an almost instinctive appreciation of relative velocity: equally necessary, whether one is handling a ship, landing an aircraft or conducting sea and air operations from a plot.
In advocating a single air-sea Service, let me make it clear that I should be against anything sudden—no blue prints, no vesting days, no hybrid new uniforms are wanted. Rather I visualise a process which might be spread over many years, and a process which, in its detailed planning, can be empirical. I certainly do not wish to advance these ideas as hard and fast proposals, any more than I would claim that a reorganisation is either overdue or urgently necessary. I merely offer them to the House as a basis for further discussion, and I ask my right hon. Friend to preserve an open mind upon them.
Even so, the mere suggestion of reforms on these lines will excite opposition, I have no doubt, alike among reactionaries in both Services and also among those who perhaps are prepared, and even anxious, to see the Navy whittled away until perhaps it finally vanishes. I rather suspect that Field Marshal Montgomery holds that point of view, and it was certainly hinted at in what I thought was otherwise a most interesting and reasonable pamphlet on defence published by the "Daily Mirror."
May I remind the House that the Navy is no ordinary public service. It has become a part and parcel of our national heritage. Its high integrity and its great traditions have earned it the respect of the world and the deep and abiding affection of the British people. Such things should not lightly be allowed to wither and die. When, therefore, I speak of a gradual fusion between the two Services, I assume that a conscious effort will be made to preserve all that is best in naval tradition, together with all that is finest in the spirit of our airmen, and to graft them on to the new combined Service that might one day arise.
5.27 p.m.
Mr. G. A. Pargiter: It is my pleasant duty first to offer my sincere congratulations to the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) upon his maiden speech.

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He comes to this House with a distinguished war record, he comes with a particular knowledge of the subject to which he has addressed himself, and, whether or not we agree with his views, the hon. and gallant Gentleman commands our respect for the restrained way in which he has put them forward. We shall hope to hear him on many occasions in the future on these matters.
Perhaps I may be forgiven if I do not follow the hon. and gallant Gentleman in his arguments, because I make no claim to be a strategist in any of the realms of warfare and we have plenty of experts on both sides of the House, on both Front and back benches, skilled in the statement, at any rate, of the arts of warfare, whether it be on the land, on the sea or in the air. What I am more concerned with, and what I want to talk about for a few moments, are the matters contained in the White Paper which are not acceptable from my point of view.
Whilst there is a good deal of confusion between strategists, there does not seem to be much confusion on the part of the scientists. The scientists admit frankly that they do not know. They are honest. Some scientists have said that in the event of a number of hydrogen bombs being released at the same time, they do not know what would be the effect on the world. Certainly they say it would be serious and probably disastrous. They do not even know, nor do we know yet, what will be the atmospheric effect if there is a continuance of the release of hydrogen bombs for testing purposes.
I can visualise that before very long, with the undoubted increase in radioactivity in the atmosphere, even with the relatively few explosions which have taken place, we shall all be wearing geiger counters instead of wrist watches and be de-activised at frequent intervals. Having regard to the known effects of radioactive diffusion at present and to what we and other nations intend to do, that is not so far-fetched as it may seem.
The appeal which I want to make I should like to be able to make to the House; but I am afraid that politicians are sufficiently practised in the art of self-deception and so skilled in argument that upon any given set of facts they will draw the conclusion they want to draw and will go home and sleep comfortably. I do
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not now find it quite as easy. I am grateful to the Government for having indicated their intention to manufacture the hydrogen bomb in the White Paper. I must say that had that been done by my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench in relation to the atom bomb, I might then have said what I am about to say; but we were committed to the manufacture of the atom bomb without having much to say about it.
We acquiesced—and I am not at all sure that it is creditable to us—in the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by atom bombs. We justified it, exactly as we should justify the use of hydrogen bombs, on the ground that it shortened the war. Whether it effectively shortened the war, I do not know, but it was perhaps a good experiment from the point of view of seeing what an atom bomb could do. That is what Hitler did at Guernica. I am not sure, looking at it in perspective, that there is much difference between the two from the point of view of moral values.
As politicians, we get very much into the habit of confusing principles and expedients. It often suits our purpose to make principles of expediencies. I suggest that the threat contained in the White Paper that we should use nuclear weapons even in the event of orthodox weapons being used in war against us, is an expedient. To me it is a new statement, and I wanted our own Front Bench to tell us exactly what was their attitude to it because, from the Amendment as drawn at present, I understand that we acquiesce in the use of nuclear weapons in the event of an enemy using a preponderance of orthodox weapons against us.
If that is so, I think it should have been clearly stated, because it did not appear in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). We ought to be quite sure that that is the intention, because so far the only statements which have been made are that we should not be the first to use atomic weapons but that we should retaliate with them if they were used against us. The White Paper changes that, and it is a marked change in outlook. We shall probably be told that this is the realistic outlook. Realistic outlooks usually lead to destruction anyway—destruction in which we should all be involved—but this seems to me to be a question to which we

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need a specific answer, as we do to the question of the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb.
Our lawyer friends seem to be able to find a way out of difficulties. There is a letter in "The Times" today from my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman)—I am sorry he is not here—which indicates that in some obscure way the Parliamentary Labour Party is not committed to the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb or the use of nuclear weapons. Lawyers, like politicians, are very skilled in the art of self-deception, for it seems to me perfectly clear that, both in the White Paper and in the Amendment as drawn at present, we are committed both to the use of nuclear weapons in the event of orthodox weapons being used against us and to the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb.
I wish there were enough people to join me tomorrow in abstaining from voting to indicate quite clearly that the House does not support either the Government or the Opposition in the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb. I make no particular claim to be more moral than my fellow citizens or to be a greater Christian, but I feel that I have gone pretty far down the slippery slopes to hell in the acquiescence which I have given up to now in the manufacture of weapons, and of the atom bomb, and I feel that it has to stop somewhere.
I was taught as a youngster that example is the best form of precept, and I was also taught to believe, if one has principles at all, that one cannot effectively combat evil with evil. That is precisely what we now propose to do. It is admitted on all sides that the hydrogen bomb is an evil thing; no one claims that it is anything else. It is an evil and dastardly weapon against civilisation, and yet we say, "Because the other fellow has it, we will have it too"; and, on top of that, we say that it has a deterrent effect.
When has history ever shown us that the manufacture of any weapon at any time has ultimately been a deterrent against its use? It is being argued that because this is a more effective weapon than has ever been known before, because it is so disastrous, it will not be used. But surely the same type of mentality applied to the simple people using bows and arrows when gunpowder
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was introduced, and it did not stop the use of gunpowder.
Mr. George Wigg:We are now dealing with an absolute weapon. If the hydrogen bomb is dropped on this country—one on London—it is a knockout.
Mr. Pargiter: I agree, but that does not destroy the validity of my argument, because in a short time the people in this country will be lulled into a sense of false security. Already it is on the way—a radar screen which will detect enemy aircraft long before they reach us, and no aircraft will get through without being effectively screened; a ground-to-air guided missile which is bound to home on its target—those are the sort of things which will be designed to suggest that our hydrogen bomb will get at the other fellow but his hydrogen bomb will not get at us. That is what we shall be told. [HON. MEMBERS: "It has never been said."] It has been the accepted policy of strategists ever since war first started—the ability to hit the other fellow and to make sure that he cannot hit you. It is not new. It always has been argued that way, and will so continue.
Can we go beyond that? Whatever we may say about using a gun or even an ordinary bomb and destroying a limited number of people, and even if we accept that, ought we not to say that the hydrogen bomb is a weapon which ought not to be used under any circumstances? Ought we not also to say that if such a weapon were used by others that does not justify our using it in return?
I should have thought that those who practise or profess Christian principles would have held this as one of the tenets of the Christian faith. Although we might not expect it from politicians, I think that we should have heard something about the hydrogen bomb from the Churches and something from those who, while not accepting the Divinity of Christ, give lip service to His teachings. Even from those who claim to speak for Moral Rearmament, who say that it does not matter who is right but what is right, might we have heard something more than we have heard up to now. We have a bewildered acceptance by the people, because they have been given no lead.
Dr. Bamett Stross: That should not go out from

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the House quite in the way the hon. Member has put it. The Archbishop of York made a very plain statement in another place and, on 8th October, his Holiness the Pope said a very remarkable thing which I hope to quote if I am called.
Mr. Pargiter: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that statement. I was speaking in general. There will always be the individual, but there has been no great mass attack on this evil, an attack supported by the Churches as a whole. It has been nothing more than an individual attack, and the individual is apparently content to leave it there.
It is to these leaders that I address myself in asking them to agree with me that we cannot combat evil with evil and must at some stage or other give up expediencies for principles and that this is a principle for which we should stand now and that we will not be parties to this horrible thing. We will not be parties, not only to the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb, but we will not be parties to launching the hydrogen bomb from our shores. That should be made clear to our friends and to our enemies. Perhaps the result may be that in mass destruction, or even without mass destruction, we may not save our skins, but I hope that we shall save our souls.
5.42 p.m.
Colonel Sir Leonard Ropner: I hope that the hon. Member for South all (Mr. Pargiter) will forgive me if I do not follow him in the thoughts he expounded to the House. However much many of us may disagree with what he said, one admires the courage with which he stated his view.
No one who has read the Statement on Defence or listened to the Prime Minister this afternoon can be left with anything other than feelings of stark horror engendered by the thought of what might happen—indeed, what will happen—if the world goes to war again. If I am to level any general criticism of the contents or the emphasis of the White Paper, it is that too much importance is still attributed to conventional forces and conventional weapons and too little appreciation shown of the absolute finality of the attack which might be launched against a country, even against a continent, without the formality of a declaration of war.
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I firmly believe that the fact that Russia, if she cannot now, may and, indeed, probably will in the course of the next few years be able to explode a thermo-nuclear bomb is more important than that the Communist world is able to put 400, or for that matter 4,000, divisions into the field. But those are questions which must be dealt with by men much more qualified to judge than I am.
There are certain aspects of the problem of defence about which I venture to say that I feel qualified to address the House for a few minutes. It is surely odd, even surprising, that except by implication there is in the White Paper no mention at all of the Merchant Navy. Surely it is not forgotten that during two world wars our merchant ships, not wit less than our fighting forces, stood between this country and defeat. They will be called upon to do the same again if we survive the first few days, perhaps even the first few seconds, of any future war.
I want to ask hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House to consider paragraphs 29 and 120 of the Statement on Defence. Paragraph 29 deals with priorities in implementing "the task before us." First priority is awarded in paragraph 25 to building up our own stocks of nuclear weapons of all types and developing the most up to date means of delivering them.
But second place is given in paragraph 29 to making some provision for continuing operations after the initial phase, particularly at sea. Paragraph 120 draws attention to the vulnerable nature of our ports and claims that plans have been drawn up for the provision of alternative facilities including the use of smaller ports and harbours. Much practical work has been done to implement that.
If these two paragraphs are considered together, they direct attention to the importance of making the best possible arrangements to ensure first the survival of merchant ships after the first phase of a war so that the ships are available in sufficient numbers to maintain our essential imports and, secondly, to ensure the availability of a sufficient number of small coasting and short-sea vessels which alone are capable of using the small ports.

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With regard to the survival of merchant ships subsequent to the initial phase of a war, good progress has been made jointly by the Admiralty and by shipowners in studying the measures necessary to protect merchant ships against atomic attack. But a great deal remains to be done. In the end, the defence potential achieved will depend on the allocation of sufficient funds to enable the necessary structural and other work on the ships to be carried out in time of peace.
There seems to be a danger that this aspect of defence may fall between two stools—that of Service expenditure on the one hand and Civil Defence expenditure on the other. The White Paper gives no indication of what provision, if any, is included in the Estimates for enabling the ships of the Merchant Navy to be prepared against atomic attack. That being so, I want to ask the Government two questions. First, what provision has been made in the Estimates for the cost of structural measures recommended by the Admiralty for the protection of merchant ships against atomic attack? Secondly, under what heading of the Estimates does this aspect of the defence budget fall?
Regarding the use of small ports and harbours, the subject matter of paragraph 120, it is surely self-evident that the use of small ports and harbours presupposes the existence of small ships capable of using them. A large ship cannot use a small port. Consequently, without an adequate fleet of small ships the plans and practical work: referred to in paragraph 120 are of no use at all.
I should like an assurance from the Government that they are fully alive to the most disquieting position in connection with the availability of small vessels. I hope that the House will forgive me if I illustrate what I am saying by quoting a few figures. A year ago the number of coasting and short-sea ships on the register of the United Kingdom of less than 500 tons deadweight carrying capacity was only a little more than half the pre-war figure. I am sorry that I have not more up-to-date figures, but I am sure that the position is worse today. The same is true if the datum line is taken at 800 tons deadweight carrying capacity. There is hardly more than half the number on the register of the United
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Kingdom today. If the datum line is raised as high as 2,000 tons, the number of ships is substantially less than in 1939.
To take another division of small ships, the British coasters have shown a diminution of numbers of no less than 22 per cent. during the last five years. Those are startling and distressing figures. On a more appropriate occasion, I should be prepared to suggest means by which the decline in the number of small ships could be arrested. Today, and in this connection, I wish to ask the Government if, when they have under consideration the problem of dispersement and the use of small ports, they will take into account the fact that ships which might use small ports are declining in numbers year by year.
For the most part, shipbuilding yards are situated in big ports and crowded rivers. Both are highly vulnerable to attack and both may perhaps be the first objective in an atomic war. New ships will not be built very easily after the first phase of a war conducted with atomic or hydrogen bombs. May I therefore have an assurance from the Government that they are considering this problem? May the House be told what is being done to ensure that the British Government will have sufficient small ships if, unhappily, war should come again?
5.55 p.m.
Mr. Denis Healey: I doubt whether this House has ever debated quite such an appalling subject. The imagination and intellect of each of us must instinctively turn away from the terrible facts of nuclear warfare. But our survival as human beings depends on our trying to think clearly about the implications of the scientific discoveries made during the last decade or so, and in trying to state our conclusions clearly, however unpopular they may be.
I wish to contribute a few tentative suggestions to a discussion which is bound to go on for many years, both inside and outside this House. I believe that most of us are agreed that nuclear weapons are most likely to be effective if employed as a deterrent to war. It seems to me that. for those of us who accept this general principle, two great questions arise. First, how can we limit the economic cost of maintaining the nuclear and other deterrents which are necessary; secondly, and in my view even more important, how

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can we hope to limit the cost in human suffering if those deterrents fail?
It seems to me that there is little moral difference between the atomic fission bomb and the hydrogen fusion bomb. If, as is the case both in America and Russia—and I hope here—we can build the fission bomb out of lithium, if we can build the so-called "dry" bomb, it is little more expensive to produce the hydrogen bomb than the atomic bomb. In fact, our stock of conventional atomic bombs could be turned into hydrogen bombs with infinitely greater destructive power at a comparatively little increase in cost.
The power of the deterrent with which we arm our forces is bound to increase its efficacy. If we are relying, as the Prime Minister suggested, on the deterrent of mutual terror, the greater the terror the greater the deterrent. The appalling ambiguity of the White Paper in this respect is that it does not make clear whether full-scale global thermo-nuclear war must be the inevitable consequence of aggression in Europe. If that is what is meant in the White Paper—and it can certainly be interpreted in that sense—I think that those who argue that we should cut to the bone our conventional armaments in Europe are justified. We cannot have it both ways, and Captain Liddell Hart and my right hon. and hon. Friends who argue this course are fully justified.
My own feeling is that we admit in any case that we are not prepared to use thermonuclear weapons against other Powers armed with thermonuclear weapons, except where there is a direct and obvious threat to our national survival. We are all agreed that we are not prepared to use such weapons in most cases of aggression outside the Continent of Europe, though perhaps our American ally is prepared to consider their use in parts of Asia where the threat to the United States is greater than the threat to Britain. I think we all agree that we must have some conventional forces for use in what I might call the "marginal" areas outside Europe.
The real question is what exactly does the White Paper imply in Europe? There is no getting away from the correctness of the decision which was reported as being taken by the N.A.T.O. Council in December, namely, that if we are to hold up the immense weight of manpower
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which the Red Army can deploy in Eastern Europe, we must be able to use nuclear weapons against those forces.
But the White Paper may well be interpreted as going a great deal further than that. It says that we cannot hold up aggression in Europe without using
"the full weight of our nuclear power."
If I recall his words correctly, the Prime Minister, speaking this afternoon, said, "We must make it clear to the Russians that Communist aggression in Europe will provoke immediate retaliation on a far larger scale." There again there is great ambiguity. Much of the public discussion of this point has been confused by arguments about tactical or strategic weapons. There are no such things in nuclear warfare. Some so-called tactical atomic weapons are already a great deal more powerful than the bombs which were dropped upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are only tactical and strategic targets.
The question we must ask ourselves if we are to clear our minds on this subject—and I hope that the Government will be able to clarify their intentions in this respect—is: Does the White Paper mean that we must be prepared to use thermonuclear weapons from the word "go" against a strategic target, such as a centre of population inside the Soviet Union—or does it simply mean that we must use whatever weight of nuclear power is required in a tactical area, that is to say, an area where land fighting is going on upon the Continent?
Mr. R. H. S. Crossman:Whatever is the answer to that question, what great difference does my hon. Friend think it makes? Secondly, does he think that Britain is a strategic or a tactical target from a Russian point of view?
Mr. Healey: I hope to be able to answer both those questions as I go on. If the Government mean that we are prepared to start bombing Russian cities the moment fighting starts in Europe, that is the doctrine of massive retaliation which was put forward by Mr. Dulles about a year ago and which, to my mind, was completely exploded at Dien Bien Phu a few weeks later.
This is a very important point, and I want to explain the difference between the two meanings of the White Paper. If the

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Russians even think that it is our intention to drop thermonuclear weapons upon their cities the moment fighting begins in Europe, then certainly the moment anything approaching a state of war develops in Europe Russia will start by dropping these weapons upon us. Being a dictatorship—and I hope that we all agree that Russia is the only likely aggressor nation—they will take the initiative. If the Government mean what they are being interpreted as meaning by people here and abroad, they are inviting a thermonuclear attack upon Britain in the first stages of war in Europe. This means that any local incident may lead to thermonuclear war, ending in the mutual destruction of both sides.
The Government may say, "Certainly, but that is why it is a deterrent." I suggest that that is not so. I do not think that any of the great Powers which possess these weapons is likely to initiate a war in which it could expect that similar weapons would be used against it, but it is quite possible that fighting might begin not as a result of decisions made in the Kremlin, the Pentagon or Whitehall but as a result of a clash between troops which, though local at first, gradually grew. It seems to me that the appalling ambiguity of the White Paper immensely increases the danger of a completely unnecessary thermonuclear war which might lead to the destruction of mankind.
Oddly enough, I think that all hon. Members agree that it is desirable, when giving a warning to a possible enemy, to make that warning as precise as possible. All the trouble in Formosa at present is due to the fact that the Americans gave the Chinese a warning which included a great area of ambiguity. In such circumstances, there is a great danger that one side or the other will miscalculate its opponent's intention. I suggest that the ambiguity of the White Paper in this respect creates a similar but even greater danger, and I hope that the Minister of Defence, or some other Government spokesman, will clarify this point later in the debate.
The second great danger, if the Government really mean that any aggression in Europe will result in full-scale thermonuclear war, is that any local incident in Europe will leave us with no alternative between self-destruction—with the use of thermonuclear weapons and the provoca-
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tion to use them against us—and appeasement. In that situation a democratic country and Government will always be tempted to choose appeasement, except upon an issue where its very survival is most obviously and directly at stake. If it becomes a question of competitive mutual blackmail at this level between a Communist dictatorship and a Western democracy, the Communist dictatorship is likely to win every time.
An imprecise threat of massive retaliation is an invitation to a tough-minded aggressor to call the bluff. That is precisely what the Chinese did to the Americans last year at Dien Bien Phu. Once one's bluff has been called it is difficult to make any further warning stick, because one is simply crying "Wolf." The uncertainty about the meaning of the White Paper is an extremely dangerous element.
Surely the right line for us to take is to say that we shall use whatever weapons are necessary to halt aggression. That means that upon the Continent of Europe we must use nuclear weapons to halt a possible onrush of the Red Army, but it does not mean that we must necessarily use those weapons against the territory of the Soviet Union.
Sir Robert Boothby: Is not the hon. Member's statement even more ambiguous?
Mr. Healey: I shall try to clarify my meaning as I go along.
My feeling is that one effect of the nuclear deterrent is that if fighting should break out anywhere in the world both sides—certainly the nuclear Powers involved—will try to limit both the area and the mode of the fighting to the maximum extent. That is what happened in the Korean War; that is what happened in the Indo-Chinese War, and there is a very good chance—I put it no higher—that it could happen in some sorts of European war. It seems to me that no Power with thermonuclear weapons is likely to attack the territory of another Power which also has thermonuclear weapons if it can possibly avoid doing so.
That is where—to answer the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman)—Britain's position must be considered. The really crucial argument for our having our own thermonuclear weapons and the means of

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delivering them is that it gives us this extra means of security against a thermonuclear attack which no Power not possessing these weapons can have. The conclusion I draw from this is that if we want to be in a position to limit human suffering, should that deterrent fail, we must have so-called conventional forces to fight a limited war if it should be possible. The fact that we have decided to use tactical atomic weapons in Europe means that we shall have to change the structure of our conventional forces and their method of fighting, but it does not mean that we can entirely dispense with them.
If we must have a thermonuclear deterrent and also a conventional deterrent against local aggression—if we must have a little of everything—it will be a tremendously costly business. I do not deny that this is certainly a great problem, but, in my view, no price is too high to avoid the mutual destruction of mankind which would be involved in a thermonuclear war. The question is, how can we hope to reduce the cost of maintaining all the necessary deterrents?
Mr. Wigg: There is this question to which the Government, as well as my hon. Friend, must address their minds: that is, that having spent the money, we must be sure that we get something in return.
Mr. Healey: I would not dispute that for a moment, and I think that many of my hon. Friends will address themselves to that aspect of the argument later in the debate. I think that the question of reducing the cost can only be solved in one way, and that is by exploiting the economic effects of the strategic interdependence of the Western Union.
When N.A.T.O. was set up it decided to aim at producing a balanced international force. The failure of N.A.T.O. to develop adequately in the political field has meant that very little has been achieved. The biggest example of that failure is our own decision to go ahead with our own thermonuclear deterrent at the same time as the Americans have one. I can see the difficulty of achieving the economies of international specialisation on a completely Atlantic scale, but I think that the Western European Union which may now come into being should provide
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us with new opportunities of organising economies at least on a European scale.
I hope that the Government will show more interest than they have done so far in the project for some sort of European arms pool. Even if the French proposals already made are not adequate, something must be done if we are to reduce the cost of defence. It is no good saying that this cannot be done; the Russians have done it. The plain fact is that there is a defence and defence production organisation on an inter-continental scale on the other side of the Iron Curtain, and scarcely anything has been done in that respect on our side.
Incidentally, I would say to those who talk about our indifference to the disarmament plan that the Russians are to spend one-fifth more this year than they did last year on arms production and both Britain and the United States are to spend less.
Mr. James Hudson:My hon. Friend is interested in the issue that a deterrent is to be brought about by nuclear weapons. Is he now asking that in this arms pool Germany should be equipped to the same extent as we are with nuclear weapons of all types?
Mr. Healey:The essence of my argument was that, provided we have international co-operation there can be specialisation in the types of arms produced and even the types of arms held, and it is not inevitable that every country shall produce and hold every type of every arm.
Mr. Wilfred Fienburgh: Is not the basis of my hon. Friend's argument that one can limit the use of nuclear weapons to tactical targets? He is saying, in other words, that we shall drop them on Germany, which may be the infrastructure, the base, of the advancing Russian army. Is not this a wholly nonsensical attitude to adopt, in view of the fact that my hon. Friend is, at the same time, trying to integrate Germany into the Western alliance?
Mr. Healey: I think there are difficult questions to answer.
If there is an advance by the Red Army we shall have to drop bombs on the Red army wherever it may be. My point is that it is surely better, if bombs are to

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be dropped, to drop them only on the Continent, and not on Britain and on the United States and the U.S.S.R. That is something, I should have thought, that we should have been agreed about. [Laughter.] I ask hon. Members to think twice before laughing about this. It has always been a fact in warfare that when war begins fighting goes on where the war begins, and that will be so in another war. I am suggesting that it is in our interest, if the deterrent fails, to limit the area and the mode of the fighting to the greatest possible extent. If that is incompatible with internationalism, I should like to be shown how it is incompatible with internationalism.
The basic fact of the atomic age is that defence is no longer possible on a purely national basis. No one believes that for Britain to have her own thermonuclear deterrent will make her independent in defence. It is quite inconceivable that Britain should ever use these weapons except in conjunction with allies, because the only defence against thermonuclear weapons and a condition for the only effective deterrent is the greatest possible dispersal on an inter-continental scale.
The whole burden of my argument in this respect is to ask the Government, and, indeed, all the Western Governments, to accept the diplomatic and economic implications of this strategic revolution. The Government are slowly facing up to the strategic implications, but, so far, there has been no progress in facing up to the diplomatic and economic ones.
6.17 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Major Gwilym Lloyd-George): I thought it would be for the convenience of the House if, at this point, I said something about the subject of Civil Defence, or, as I think it is better called in the White Paper, Home Defence.
In Chapter VIII of the White Paper we have tried to set out the problem, as far as we can at present assess it, and the proposals we have to make at this stage. As the White Paper makes perfectly clear, our plans must not be conceived in the terms of our experience in the last war, nor even of the threat posed by the atomic bomb, for we are now confronted by new and revolutionary problems, many of which have arisen only within the last few months.
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Those hon. Members who have studied the report, issued on 15th February, by the United States Atomic Energy Commission, will appreciate just how serious these problems are. They are, in fact, so formidable, and their ramifications so complicated, that I must tell the House quite frankly that today I can give only an interim report. Some time will be needed before we can embark on the full range of Civil Defence measures which are necessary.
In common prudence we must consider the worst which might befall: a number of thermonuclear weapons might be exploded in target areas in this country. Each would cause a wide circle of devastation around the centre of the bomb burst, and from each there might extend down-wind a wide area in which radioactive "fall-out" would constitute a terrible menace to health and to life.
Nevertheless, we should expect that there would be wide tracts of country that would escape, and it would be there that the battle for survival would have to be organised. There would be great numbers of survivors to be rescued, many of them sick or injured, and all would need help of one kind or another. Every person and every organised unit under central or local command would be involved in a grim struggle on whose outcome our continued existence as a nation might well depend.
So far as is practicable, our plans must be made in such a way that we could, if the emergency arose, rapidly expand the permanent Civil Defence structure to the proportions that might be needed in war.
Although we cannot now count on any part of our crowded island being immune from attack or free from danger, we must be ready to move as many people as we can from what we believe to be target areas into safer places, and be prepared to house and feed the population and keep order among them wherever they may be. We must see that the people have whatever protection against the new hazards is practicable. We must organise and train the life-saving forces who would go into action after an attack.
We have decided that these life-saving forces must be organised in three separate but related formations. There must be in each locality an organisation which, if the locality escaped danger, would help with the movement, feeding and

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general care of those who might have been made homeless by enemy attack elsewhere and which, if the locality itself were damaged, would collect and collate the information about damage and casualties on which the control of life-saving operations would depend, and would at least make a start with those life-saving operations—fighting fires, rescuing the trapped, helping the injured and directing the homeless. This is what we all know as the local Civil Defence services.
In support of those local forces we, as no doubt our predecessors in office did, contemplate that there shall be reinforcements of trained mobile forces, strategically disposed and ready to be sent to the help of the places hardest hit. The advent of the hydrogen bomb increases enormously the scale of reinforcement that would be required. The Statement on Defence shows how we are setting about providing the necessary reserve of men in the Mobile Defence Corps.
I do not think it is necessary for me to expand what the White Paper says about the Mobile Defence Corps. We are hoping to get 48 battalions, each with a strength of about 600, and we expect to pass about 10,000 men a year through the special training depots. We shall make a beginning in the course of this year. It may be asked why we have not set out to make a larger force. The reply is that it is as large as we can effectively handle at the beginning from the administrative point of view.
The Government felt, in view of the appalling possibilities, that more was needed. So we came to a decision which, I feel sure, will be welcomed in the House and in the country. It is that in future all members of the Armed Forces, including the Home Guard, will receive training in elementary Civil Defence duties as part of their normal training.
Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is referring to the reserves?
Major Lloyd-George: I am referring to those who are actually in the Armed Forces.
Mr. Shinwell: If the Armed Forces who are called up to National Service are to be given this training, why should not
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those who are exempted, students, agricultural workers and the like, equally be given the training?
Major Lloyd-George:Many of these people are already giving voluntary service. It is much simpler when people are already in the Services to get them to do this training.
Mr. Shinwell: Under the National Service Acts men are called up to serve. It is now proposed that instead of undergoing combatant duties—[Hon. Members: "No."]—they should, in the auxiliary period of three and a half years, be trained in Civil Defence, be formed into mobile columns and receive training. Why should those who are deferred under the same Acts not equally be called up and trained?
Major Lloyd-George:The right hon. Gentleman is getting two things slightly mixed. The mobile column is a totally different thing from what I have been referring to. All members of the Forces of the Crown will be given training during their period of service, not to the exclusion of their combatant duties, but in addition. That is different from what we have now.
Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is mistaken in thinking that I got it wrong. It is not so long since the Government announced that members of the Royal Air Force for whom the R.A.F. could not provide auxiliary training, combatant training, should be transferred to Civil Defence. That was the decision of the Government. If that is so, I assume that, during the period of auxiliary service, the call-up for 14 or 15 days, these men will receive Civil Defence training. In that case, why not do the same with the other people to whom I have referred?
Major Lloyd-George: I am sorry to repeat that the right hon. Gentleman has still got two things mixed up. We are not discussing the mobile columns. That is an entirely different thing. People actually serving in the Forces will, as part of their military training and during their ordinary service, have to do elementary training in Civil Defence.
Mr. Wigg: That means that the Government have now accepted the suggestion which I made in the last debate on Civil Defence, which was that during

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their two years' Service National Service men should be given part-time training in Civil Defence. The only unfortunate thing is that the Government are six months too late, as usual.
Major Lloyd-George: It shows how good a suggestion it was, coming from the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg).
This new departure will ensure that all men, both in the active Forces and in the reserves, will have knowledge of the theory and practice of this kind of work. It means also that behind the Mobile Defence Corps would be the whole resources of the Armed Forces who were not actively engaged in repelling the enemy. We must not forget that there will be many duties concerned with Civil Defence, for example, clearing of rubble from roads, repairing bridges and railways, and providing emergency communications, which the Armed Forces are already equipped and trained to perform.
The help of the Armed Forces who had received specialised training would be of particular value in fighting fires and in rescue operations. For both these tasks it is essential that we should have a nucleus of trained, well-organised and highly mobile units. But they differ in this respect—that for fire-fighting we have the experienced regular fire brigades on which to build a war organisation, while for rescue there is no corresponding professional service.
For this reason, we have decided that the Royal Air Force H reservists, who will be available for a shorter period of specialised training than the Mobile Defence Corps, shall be trained infire fighting, so that in war they may be drafted into the regular Fire Service, which would then be under unified and central control. The H reservists are to be called up for a fortnight's training in each of the second and third years of their period on reserve, and the training will be given in Home Office establishments by instructors seconded from the regular fire brigades, though the men will be under the control of their own officers for discipline.
Training these men should start next July, and in the first year the reservists will be trained approximately up to the standard of the members of the Auxiliary Fire Service. In the second year, the instruction will be rather more advanced.
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There is obviously a limit to the degree to which we could dilute the peace-time fire brigades, and, in view of the possible need for expansion at a future date, we intend that some of the battalions of the Mobile Defence Corps shall be fire fighting units. They will be trained, commanded and controlled by the Service Departments, but will be at the disposal of the civil authorities in time of war.
The bulk of the battalions of the Mobile Defence Corps will be trained for rescue and ambulance duties. The men who compose them will receive a month's training during their whole-time National Service, and they will continue their training when recalled as units for a fortnight in each of their periods on the Reserve.
Some may suggest that this is inadequate and should be extended, or even that there should be a whole-time professional body of rescue brigades for Civil Defence. As to the first point, our experience with the Home Office Experimental Mobile Column shows that in two months or so it will be possible to carry through a training syllabus of real value. As to setting up professional rescue brigades in peace-time, I believe that the suggestion is impracticable. The brigades would have no steady peace-time tasks to perform, and, apart from the frustration and boredom that the men would feel, we simply cannot afford to divert large numbers of men permanently from more useful and productive occupations.
As I have said, I can give the House today only an interim report on Civil Defence. The new problems, and especially those that would arise from the extensive radioactive contamination caused by a hydrogen bomb explosion, are so complex and have confronted us so recently that our plans for dealing with them have not yet reached the stage when they can be made public, though they are, of course, receiving the most urgent attention.
The measures involved cover a wide field. Many are the responsibility of other Ministers, but I assure the House that there is the closest co-operation between us and the most careful coordination of our plans. The Statement on Defence mentions some of them, such as safeguarding communications, providing alternative ports and harbours, and building up reserve stocks of fuel and food and other essentials.

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Perhaps the most important of the measures mentioned in the Statement are the evacuation of the civilian population and the provision of shelter. My predecessor told the House last July that evacuation is fundamental to many other Civil Defence plans; but evacuation, to be effective, must be worked out in great detail so that the local authorities in both reception and evacuation areas know precisely what they must do. That takes time, especially when it is remembered that now practically any part of this country might be exposed to the danger of radioactive "fall out."
In the course of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington said that there was no adequate defence against the hydrogen bomb. [Interruption] I was only quoting what the right hon. Gentleman said, and, if he will wait a moment, I will tell him what I think. As far as protective measures for the civilian population are concerned, we have to face the fact that it is of no avail to try to provide deep shelters that would be proof against a hit or a near miss from a hydrogen bomb—[Hon. Members: "Why?"]—although fairly simple shelters further from the point of burst would give good protection against blast, heat and "fall out."
What is equally important now is to decide how protection can best be given to the vast numbers of people who might be exposed to the hazards of radioactive "fall out" far from the target in urban and rural areas. We are considering how this protection can best be given, but, before we reach decisions, we must be reasonably certain that the measures to be taken are on the right lines.
One obvious need that is not specifically mentioned in the White Paper is an organisation properly equipped with the necessary instruments to give warning and to make surveys of radioactivity in all parts of the country after an attack by thermonuclear weapons.
Mr. Victor Collins: The Home Secretary has spoken of moving large numbers of people to less dangerous areas, and he has made it clear that, according to the direction of the wind, an area may be safe or dangerous. What period of time is proposed for moving the people? The
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extent of the warning may be a matter of minutes, or at most hours. Will it be possible to move large numbers of people in that time?
Major Lloyd-George: That is the sort of thing which requires very intensive examination. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there may be very little warning, but this must not be the excuse for not trying to make arrangements as best we can for as much evacuation as possible from the crowded areas. This is vital in our small island, with its immense concentrations of population in small areas.
I was referring to the need for a small organisation properly equipped with instruments to detect radioactivity, and I assure the House that the Government fully recognise theneed to ensure the production of the specialised instruments required in sufficient numbers for equipping the warning organisation that will have to be set up.
Tentative plans for a wide variety of Civil Defence measures are being tested out. They are tested in careful operational studies at the Civil Defence Staff College, and experts of all the services involved take part in these studies. As soon as new plans, matured in this way, are sufficiently crystallised, they are incorporated in the teaching given to students at the College and to Civil Defence instructors at the technical schools.
I should like to say a word or two about the importance of the local Civil Defence organisation. The decision that all members of the Armed Forces, including the Home Guard, are to receive training in elementary Civil Defence duties as part of their normal military training, is, I think the House will agree, a notable advance, and will place invaluable reinforcements at the disposal of the civil authorities.
This is a new departure of far-reaching importance, but I want to emphasise most strongly that the volunteer forces remain the foundation of our Civil Defence. We shall rely, as we have never relied before, I suggest, on the police, the Fire Service, the Civil Defence Corps, the Industrial Civil Defence Service, the National Hospital Service Reserve, the Women's Voluntary Services, the Red Cross Society, the St. John Ambulance Brigade and the members of all the civilian voluntary

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organisations. Indeed, we have decided to extend throughout the country the encouragement we have so far given only in the likely target areas for the larger commercial and industrial concerns to form units of the Industrial Civil Defence Service.
The volunteer forces would be the first to go into action: their local knowledge, reconnaissance and guidance would be essential if the reinforcements from the Armed Forces were to be employed most effectively: and, besides that, there are many civil defence duties—for example, many aspects of welfare work and the duties of the wardens' section of the Civil Defence Corps—which would lie outside the scope of the help that could be expected from the Armed Forces.
I should like to say once again, because it is very important that the country should know it, that no standing army of professional Civil Defence experts that we could afford to maintain would be large enough to do the job of Civil Defence in war.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Nor anybody else.
Major Lloyd-George: A large organisation of trained local volunteers will be essential for all sections of Civil Defence.
I have endeavoured, as briefly as I can, to give the House an account of what is being done to meet the threat of thermonuclear attack. Naturally, I do not claim that the problem is solved, but at least we have advanced. As we learn more we shall have fresh plans and we shall announce them to the House and the country.
There are those, of course, who will say that anything of this kind is useless—that there is no defence at all against thermonuclear attack. I cannot believe that to be the view except of a minority in this country.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman read the Home Office report about the experiences in Hamburg?
Major Lloyd-George: Yes, of course, and I have been to Hamburg. But I repeat: those who say that it is no good doing anything represent a minority of people.
In any event, it is a view which no Government could take. It is purely defeatist.
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I am sure that to do all we can to mitigate the effect of such an attack must be a right and proper part of our defence programme, for the best chance, surely, that we have of avoiding such an attack is to make it clear to the aggressor that we have made every possible preparation to meet it.
Mr. Ede:Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman be a little more definite about the numbers and the allocation of the cost? How many does he expect to recruit into his various services, where he is bringing in the Armed Forces? How many does he expect each year from the time it starts? He mentioned that £70 million is being allocated to this programme. How much of that is for the services which he has described as being connected with rescue, fire fighting, and so on; and how much is for stock-piling and the other things not normally regarded by the general population as Civil Defence?
Major Lloyd-George:I cannot answer all those questions now, but I will give the right hon. Gentleman the information later.
The H Reserve is, I think, on the Home Office Vote. The cost of the other schemes will fall on the Service Votes. My recollection is that about 10,000 H reservists would be going through each year and another 10,000 would come into the scheme for the Mobile Defence Corps. H reservists would be trained for fire-fighting duties, and from the second year onwards, when we should have twice as many to train, we hope to double the training facilities. In addition, everybody in the Armed Forces would have to undergo training in Civil Defence.
6.44 p.m.
Mr. Maurice Edelman: I was glad to hear that the Home Secretary, chastened, no doubt, by the experience of his predecessor, approached the question of Civil Defence and the hydrogen bomb with considerable humility. It is true that he has had the advantage of reading the report on the hydrogen bomb recently issued by the United States Atomic Energy Commission, and he seemed to have profited from the reading in order to announce today that evacuation will be one of the means used to guard against the effects of the hydrogen bomb.

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For my part, when I read that report, I could not help feeling that the passages dealing with evacuation were the weakest and the most inconsistent parts of the report, because it is perfectly plain from it that the greatest danger arising out of the hydrogen bomb comes from the radioactive "fall-out"; and that radioactive "fall-out," despite the tremendous scientific ingenuity which goes into the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb, is dependent on the whim of the prevailing wind.
If it is suggested that one measure of Civil Defence should be to organise evacuation from the major cities, it is possible to conceive that a mass evacuation should be started from London, for example, if a hydrogen bomb were dropped on Dover; and as evacuation westwards was proceeding, it might well be that another thermonuclear bomb might be dropped on Cardiff, the wind might change and one might find a collision of the streams of evacuation.
Quite apart from the fact that our island is so small as to make evacuation under existing conditions impracticable, bearing in mind the range and extent of the hydrogen bomb, I cannot conceive that, if one bears in mind the nature of the bomb, evacuation can be an effective technique.
But I hope, in a few minutes, to return to the central question of Civil Defence and passive defence against the hydrogen bomb and, in particular, to certain of the new facts disclosed for the first time by the report of the United States Atomic Energy Commission. The central theme of our debate today is not defence, but deterrent. By defence we mean the measures undertaken to repel an attack. Deterrents, on the other hand, consist in making the penalties of such an attack so great that no prospective enemy would dare undertake it.
It is now set out in the White Paper and suggested in the Amendment that, as the hydrogen bomb is the supreme strategic deterrent, it will be able to produce strategic independence for Britain and that Britain herself must manufacture the hydrogen bomb and, if necessary, use it. I hope tomorrow night not only to vote against the Government Motion, but also to record my disapproval of the Amendment in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends by abstaining from
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supporting that Amendment. I wish to put before the House the reasons which have led me to that decision.
Listening to the Prime Minister, I was astonished to hear him suggest that the Soviet Union has not, in fact, got a hydrogen bomb or, alternatively, is not capable of delivering a hydrogen bomb in the same way as the United States. I believe it is within the recollection of hon. Members that the first thermonuclear explosion was set off by the Soviet Union. There seems to be little doubt of it because it was established. and could be established, by scientific measurement and calculation in the surrounding countries. When the United States first set off her thermonuclear device it was pointed out that that device was not actually a bomb but an instrument which introduced a thermonuclear explosion.
All along, in the various inquiries undertaken in the United States—in the inquiries concerning the activities of Dr. Oppenheimer—it was constantly brought out that, owing to Soviet scientific research, on the one hand, and the treason of some Western scientists, on the other, the Soviet Union was, in fact, a slight jump ahead of the West. Consequently, it has always seemed to me that even though we regard our possession of the hydrogen bomb and the possession by the United States of the hydrogen bomb as a deterrent it is only a counter-deterrent and that the Soviet Union, it has always been thought, is in possession of the means not only of manufacturing but also of delivering a hydrogen bomb.
Why it is that many hon. Members on this side of the House who are not pacifists recoil from the suggestion that the hydrogen bomb should be manufactured and used? That is a question which, I know, many of us have put to ourselves in order that we may not be affected only by emotion but be able to come to firm conclusions about this most vital matter. The answer is that the hydrogen bomb is not only different in size from what have hitherto been called conventional weapons, but also different in kind.
Here I state my belief that we have probably reached the stage in which the usual distinction between conventional and non-conventional weapons is no longer very important. A new distinction should be made between what I may

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call finite weapons and weapons of infinite capacity. When I speak of finite weapons I include the atom bomb; I describe them as finite weapons because, if we take the whole range of mankind's experience from the days of the bow and arrow to the atomic bomb, it will be seen that the power of those weapons has been limited to their physical nature.
The bow and arrow was limited by the power of the bow to discharge the arrow and the power of the atom bomb is limited by what is called its critical mass. In the case of the hydrogen bomb we come to a totally different kind of weapon. It is an "open ended" weapon, as the Americans call it; a weapon capable of infinite expansion. Because its power is potentially infinite I suggest that the hydrogen bomb is different in nature and kind from what I have described as finite weapons.
I was interested to note that even the Prime Minister made no reference whatsoever to the possibility of the hydrogen bomb being accommodated in casing such as cobalt which the very men who have developed the hydrogen bomb—men like Professor Teller, of the United States—have stated would be capable of infinite destruction. If I had to summarise my difference of definition between finite weapons and the hydrogen bomb, I would say that whereas finite weapons are capable of destroying men even in hundreds of thousands, infinite weapons are capable of destroying man himself.
It is suggested, and was suggested by the Prime Minister this afternoon, that in a thermonuclear war the West, with its highly developed techniques, its scientists, and with its general resources, would probably be able to out-fight and to survive an aggressor from the East. Let us for a moment examine that thesis rather more closely. I submit to the House that in a thermonuclear war the side that is best qualified to fight it, the side best qualified to engage in passive and civil defence is the side which has the lowest standard of living. It is not the side which has a washing machine civilisation, a civilisation based on air conditioning, or television. The side which is most capable of fighting a thermonuclear war is the side whose civilisation is closest to the life of the ant.
I can well imagine that if a thermonuclear war were to break out the sur-
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vivors would literally be not only those with the lowest standard of living but those with the lowest forms of animal life because they have a better experience of adaptation. They are more used to hardship and physically better organised to deal with the uncivilised conditions which would certainly develop in the event of a thermonuclear war.
Let us consider the question of evacuation. The Russians have had long experience of mass migration, dating from the time of Genghis Khan. During the last war they showed how, under a ruthless dictatorship, it was possible not only to move a population but to translate total races and nationalities from one end of Russia to another. It was done under most primitive and barbaric conditions, but the fact is that it was done.
The people who were moved did not expect to carry with them their motor cars; they did not expect to carry with them three meals a day. They were a primitive people, used to living in primitive conditions, a people who were accustomed to the rigid and unrelenting discipline of Communist rule. The result was that they were able to survive conditions which the more civilised people, if I may so call them, of the West certainly could not have endured. The only reason I am dwelling on this point is to make the submission that in a hydrogen bomb war it would be the side with the lowest standard of civilisation which would survive.
Mr. Edward Shackleton:Is my hon. Friend also suggesting that the survivors would be the winners of that war?
Mr. Edelman: I have always noticed, in a boxing match, that the one who is knocked out is usually declared the loser and the one who survives is the winner. If there were any survivor I would say that the survivor was the winner. I dwell on this point because if I relate it to the report of the United States Atomic Energy Commission I cannot help feeling that, in present circumstances, some of the advice we are getting on how to deal with a thermonuclear attack would be ludricrous if it were not tragic. In the "Sunday Times," a couple of days ago, we were told that, in the event of a thermonuclear attack, if we were exposed to radioactivity the best thing to do would be to take a bath. I

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observe in the United States report that we are also advised to bath frequently if we are exposed to any form of radiation.
Mr. A. C. Manuel: There would be no water.
Mr. Edelman: It is rather like advising a child who has been playing a game of football to take a bath in case he catches cold.
There is a great difference between conditions after a hydrogen bomb attack and recommendations drawn up when the recommenders are sitting in an armchair in an office. I will give one example of that. The United States Atomic Energy Commission's report says that one of the greatest dangers arising from a hydrogen bomb attack would be the radiation of what is called strontium. Radio-strontium can be absorbed by the human organism either by inhalation or through liquids. If the advice given, no doubt, by the Home Secretary, and certainly given in that report, were to be followed, it would mean that before anybody takes the advice to have a bath, to remove the radioactive substance from himself he would first have to test his bath water to find whether there was strontium radiation inside it.
Dr. Stross: I think the exact words were "inhalation or ingestion," not "liquid."
Mr. Edelman: My hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that a common form of ingestion is to swallow one's bath water. I cannot help feeling that if there were a hydrogen bomb explosion, a bomb which, perhaps, was dropped in a reservoir and which had the effect of contaminating the supplies of water—and that, clearly, would be one of the first objectives of a potential enemy—anybody in a household, even taking the advice given in that report, would be subject to the atomic disease, as the Japanese and the Americans call it.
Mr. Manuel:Would not my hon. Friend agree that it would be very unlikely that any sort of water at all would be available?
Mr. Edelman: I think it not impossible that all the water available for the population might be contaminated, but I suggest that the contamination of vast supplies of
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water might well take place in these circumstances. I must add that radio-strontium, with its chemical similarity to calcium, tends to collect in the bones and there to produce the constant irradiation of the body cells which produce cancer and malignant growth.
I come now to the second effect. I feel obliged to refer to it, not to harrow the House, but because, despite the dire and terrible warning given by the Prime Minister in opening the debate, I think that the country ought to know what is now known in America. The second effect of radio-strontium is that it can harm or destroy the human foetus in the womb during the early proliferating state, particularly if it is absorbed into the prospective mother's body through eating either vegetables or the flesh of animals which have been fed on the radioactive substance. There is absolutely no doubt—and this is to understate the case—that there is a biological hazard present in the radioactivity which would certainly come from the explosion of a hydrogen bomb.
I believe that the scientists call it the mutation of genes, but to give it a less-wrapped-up and a more down-to-earth description, what that means is that if there were this irradiation of the body of a prospective mother, the result would be to produce monsters. When the Prime Minister spoke before about the onrush of the Mongol hordes, I could not help thinking that it would be a terrible paradox if, in using a hydrogen bomb to prevent the onrush of the Mongol hordes. we had at the same time created conditions for the production of a race of Mongol children. I do not believe it is morally right to acquiesce in any circumstances in the production of instruments which make the generation which survives a hydrogen bomb war into monsters. I do not believe that we have the right to create an age in which the happy mothers will be those who miscarry and the accursed ones those who give birth.
The alternative to the manufacture and use of the hydrogen bomb, the alternative to all these horrors, is in my view to have a top-level meeting as soon as possible to make disarmament a reality—to have a real disarmament conference, not one of the backstairs intrigues but a real disarmament conference, without cynicism and without propaganda, to turn our back, in America, Russia and Britain,

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on the apocalyptic engines and to use the knowledge and resources that we have acquired in order to promote the world's well-being.
7.5 p.m.
Mr. Martin Lindsay: The Government are to be congratulated on the Defence White Paper, which courageously faces for the first time the very many unpleasant facts in the new strategic position in which we find ourselves. I venture to think that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister elaborated it in a speech which those of us who heard it will long remember. What a contrast it was to the speech that followed from the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell).
I am quite certain that the Government are absolutely right in assuming that the first defence is deterrence and are right in their decision to proceed with the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb in this country, and that what is needed now more than anything is what the White Paper calls the "even higher priority for the primary deterrent." If this is true at the present time, when there is at least a chance, with better fighters and guided missiles, of shooting down enemy bombers, how much more so will it be so in the future, when supersonic long distance rockets, which there will be little or no chance whatever of intercepting, have been fully developed?
It follows, as the White Paper and the Prime Minister have stated, that we can be secure only when a potential attacker knows that we can bring down retribution of an annihilating nature if we are attacked. But, unfortunately, we are at the moment a very long time from having the bomber squadrons which will give us this safeguard and for which, as the Prime Minister said, we are so much indebted to our American allies. That is the reason for the disappointment, if dismay is too strong a word, at the facts which were disclosed in the White Paper on Military Aircraft. I do not know of any White Paper in recent times which had such a bad Press as that one.
What is the cause of so much delay in the production of military aircraft? We have in this country a most efficient aircraft industry. It is well known that, although the industry's order books are small, it has not lost a single order on the grounds of price. The super-priority
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introduced by the present Government has saved 12 months in the production of aircraft, and we understand that the relationship between the aircraft industry and the Ministry of Supply is working well.
I believe that in my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Supply we have a man of quite exceptional ability, but it seems to me that in these circumstances in which we find ourselves we must look to the Minister of Supply for a much more vigorous and decisive direction of aircraft production than has been considered necessary in the past. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend's advisers will consider whether it is not the case that the operational requirements of the Royal Air Force have been altogether too ambitious in the past, so that the makers have never known where modifications have stopped and new design has started with ever advancing new design requirements. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will also consider what he can do to ease the chronic shortage of skilled men, technicians, technologists and scientists in the aircraft industry.
I think that there is today a very strong case for excusing from National Service skilled men in that industry. Today we are facing an emergency, and the case is infinitely stronger for these men than for miners and merchant seamen, so I hope that the Government will consider this aspect also. In my view, all matters connected with the supply of modern aircraft should today be treated as a national emergency, since our survival may well depend upon how quickly the R.A.F. can be re-equipped.
I agree with the Prime Minister that we must not only have the means of delivering the hydrogen bomb in overwhelming power, but that we must make it perfectly clear to our potential enemy that it would be our intention to use it with devastating effect from the start. I listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey), and I agree that there is ambiguity in the White Paper. It reminds me of the conditional clauses of the late Mr. Neville Chamberlain and Sir Horace Wilson. At any rate the Prime Minister underlined this aspect in his speech, and I hope that Government spokesmen will not fail to make clear our position. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington made heavy

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weather about the speech of Field Marshal Lord Montgomery when he stated that, if we were attacked, we would reply with all the means at our disposal.
Mr. F. Beswick:The hon. Gentleman said we should make it clear that thermonuclear weapons would be used from the start. Will he define more clearly what he means by "start"? The start of what? Would any trouble in Berlin, for example, on the 1948 pattern be considered a start and should we then use these weapons?
Mr. Lindsay: It is not for me to define it but for the Government. I would like it stated quite plainly; I am with the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East there. I think that the Russians should know exactly where they would be placed in any advance to the West or in any other direction.
The statements on Civil Defence in the White Paper are of the greatest importance. The Government are right to say that our will to survive is part of the deterrent, and that the strength of our resolve and our earnestness will be reflected in the efficiency of the arrangements which we make to protect the home base. As the Prime Minister said this afternoon, the power of the nuclear bomb is so great that it must always be a temptation to the enemy to think that we or our allies could be knocked out immediately. Therefore, we must make it obvious that we can still deliver a counter stroke, not only from our overseas bases but also from this country, even if our large cities were already demolished.
So it is necessary to disperse and conceal both the machinery of government and our offensive bases. This is an essential precaution, which is not touched on in the White Paper, nor was it elaborated by the Home Secretary. We must ensure that, even if London and the seat of Government were to be destroyed, the machinery of command would still continue to function. This could only be possible if decentralisation had been planned in advance, so that large areas, from which the battle of survival would have been organised, could carry on independently.
Therefore we must welcome the suggestions in the White Paper for the special network of communications, for stockpiling of essential commodities, and the
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re-appraisal of port facilities. I was glad, incidentally, that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Sir L. Ropner) devoted much of his speech to that subject. All these suggestions are sound provided that the arrangements are put into force and are not simply paper schemes. For example, it is no use listing alternative ports for discharging our imports unless the necessary port and dock facilities are installed It is no use talking about stockpiling essential commodities unless the requisite storage facilities are provided in spite of all the expense that those will entail.
I wish I were so confident that we are realistic in talking about evacuation. In the last war we were able to evacuate women and children, but in a nuclear war it would be a question of evacuating whole cities, which is obviously impracticable, even if it were not necessary for production to be continued as far as possible. Nor am I so confident that the 48 reserve battalions of the proposed new Mobile Defence Corps are a practical proposition. I cannot see what they could do confronted with such widespread devastation as would occur.
Particularly do I dislike the suggestion that these men will be, as the White Paper states, "Selected from the R.A.F. and the Army." If ever troops are required for such a role, it will surely be the most exacting of all tasks, calling for morale of as high an order as has ever been required of British troops. Those of us who have seen the British Army in retreat know that we can only get morale of this order from a formation—whether it be a ship's company, a regiment or any other—which is incorporated under its own officers and has a strong traditional unit loyalty. At Dunkirk and in Norway we saw such units go through hell on earth and come through with their discipline unshaken—in marked contrast sometimes to other troops from rear formations whose less closely defined loyalties could not take the strain. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War was present and played a distinguished part in one of those operations, and I hope that he and the planners of this new Defence Corps will not forget the lessons of those days.
Finally, I regret very much that the Opposition have thought fit to try to make party political capital out of this issue. I can assure them that they have

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no monopoly of anxiety about the defences of this country, and for the party which voted to a man against conscription four months before the last war started, and whose reduction of the aircraft development programme has been responsible to such a large extent for the state of our defences today, it is laughable and contemptible.
7.19 p.m.
Mr. George Wigg: The charitable thing to say about the speech of the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) is that he has not read the White Paper or, if he has, it is the one for the wrong year. There is a test which one can apply to the value of the White Paper and to the value of the speech of the Prime Minister. We can pass right beyond the question of opinion and apply the test of how far the defence policy is understood. After the White Paper has been available for a fortnight, and after we have had an opportunity of listening to the Prime Minister, it is perfectly clear from the speeches of the hon. Members for Solihull and for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey) that we do not know where we stand on the central question: Do we use the nuclear weapon if we are attacked with conventional weapons?
I was very surprised that the Prime Minister did not intervene during the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). If he were not present, I am surprised that the Minister of Defence did not get on his feet to clear up this vital point. The fact that the Minister of Defence did not intervene either in the speech of the hon. Member for Solihull or that of my right hon. Friend seems to point to the fact that the Government have deliberately set out not to clarify the issue but to confuse it. I am willing to give way to the Minister of Defence if he will now tell us, the country and the world where this country stands on the issue of the use of the deterrent. If he will not rise and explain in categorical terms where the Government stand, I think I am right in assuming that they do not want us to know the truth.
The issue before the country is not whether we should build the hydrogen bomb or not—and I wish my hon. Friend the Member for South all (Mr. Pargiter) were here. For the last 10 years we have lived in a world which has worked out
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its defence policies in the knowledge of the existence of the atom bomb. I go further; I believe it to be a complete waste of time for my hon. Friends to spend a split second arguing whether we should build the bomb or not. I believe it is built. I believe it is already in existence.
Therefore, as an honest man, I must try to face the facts of the world in which I live. The hydrogen bomb is here with us, and in the long run perhaps it will bring certain blessings in its train; but at present, as a very wise friend of mine said—a very good man, much better than I am—" Mankind is touching the hem of God's garment." We are not good enough and wise enough to have this awful accession to power. Now we have it, we do not know what to do with it.
The fact is, we have it, and the Prime Minister has come to the House this afternoon to do what he did in 1951—to exploit the defence position for party political purposes. [Hon. Members: "No."] Yes. Since I came to the House almost 10 years ago, I have never missed a defence debate. In all the debates on all the Services, I have never heard a more disgraceful speech in my mother tongue than that by the Prime Minister on 14thFebruary, 1951. I believe it is to the credit of the Minister of Defence and the Foreign Secretary and others on his own Front Bench that they were opposed to the tactics which the Prime Minister adopted on this occasion.
He used the crisis created by the Korean war and the political situation in 1951 and what he thought was a split inside the ranks of my party to see whether he could get us out and put himself in. But in this life we take and we pay, and the Prime Minister is like the late Dr. Goebbels; they became the victims of their own propaganda.
Mr. Ian Harvey: A disgraceful comparison.
Mr. Wigg: I think it is a fair comparison.
Mr. Harvey: It is a scandalous comparison. May I ask the hon. Gentleman, since he has bandied accusations about, who used the phrase, "Whose finger on the trigger?"
Mr. Wigg: I did not use it.
Mr. Speaker: I suggest to the House that all this is pretty ancient history. We are dealing with a defence programme for this year. That is the matter before us.
Mr. Wigg: I am replying to the hon. Member for Solihull, who did not neglect to go out of his way to smear hon. Members on this side of the House with a vote against conscription even before the war. I am entitled to reply, within the rules of order, and if I am attacked I will reply. I have every intention of replying.
I come back to the point—that on 14th February, 1951, the Prime Minister set in train a volume of propaganda of which he himself was the victim, because when he assumed office as Prime Minister he showed that he believed, not only in what he said but in what he did, that an attack with conventional weapons by the Russians was imminent. He at once formed the Home Guard. He reformed seven regular battalions. Of course, he did not explain the reason for this decision; he certainly did not give the reasons which are given in the Secretary of State's Memorandum on the Army. He did not say, for example, there was a surfeit of manpower which had to be put into units.
What he sought to do was to castigate my hon. Friends, doubt their integrity and smear them with a statement that he formed seven battalions to replace seven battalions which had been imprudently cast away. They have been cast away again since, but the Prime Minister did not use the word "imprudently" on this occasion. The battalions existed for only three years and they have now gone. He formed 501 mobile columns. Was there ever a piece of greater military nonsense than that? The efficiency of the Army—heaven knows it is bad enough as a result of the Secretary of State's efforts—was made infinitely worse as a result of that decision.
That is not all. The Prime Minister came to the House on 5th February, 1952, and announced the decision, "Super-priority for all fighter aircraft." Yesterday we learned for the first time that super-priority was given to all aircraft—yet the hon. Member for Solihull says, "We have saved 12 months." All that happened was that all the projects which we were putting through took one pace
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forward, and were all back where they started.
Mr. Raymond Gower:Nothing the hon. Gentleman has said in the last few sentences has justified his abominable comparison of the Prime Minister with Dr. Goebbels. Will he now take the opportunity of withdrawing such a disgraceful assertion?
Mr. Wigg:I am sorry that hon. Members opposite are so touchy. I did not say that. I said that the Prime Minister, like the late Dr. Goebbels, believed his own propaganda. I am saying that they believed in what they said. One died in a bunker and the other, the Prime Minister, after spending thousands of millions of pounds, has taken this country to the brink of disaster.
Mr. M. Lindsay:May I tell the hon. Gentleman that the British aircraft manufacturers have stated—and it is their statement—that the super-priority afforded by this Government has saved 12 months, because they were then able to get back the men they had been losing so rapidly?
Mr. Wigg: The hon. Member is a most curious person. He comes here very rarely, he does not read any White Papers and he does not listen to what is said. He does not even read HANSARD. Only yesterday we learned for the first time that the super-priority applied to bombers as well as to fighters, but on 5th February, 1952, the Prime Minister said it was fighters only. Eventually it turned out to be all aircraft. That is the cause of the disaster.
But of course that was not the only mistake which the Prime Minister made in 1952. When he arrived at the Ministry of Defence he thought—and again the evidence is to be found quite clearly in HANSARD—that the Ministry of Defence was as he left it in 1945. He did not realise that it was engaged in the task of co-ordinating the three Services and trying to make sense out of their production programmes in order that orders could be passed to the Ministry of Supply.
Against the advice of the Leader of the Opposition, he appointed Field Marshal Lord Alexander as Minister of Defence—a very distinguished soldier; but, I venture to say, there has never been a more

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disastrous appointment than that, because, for the reasons which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition gave, what we needed at that time was somebody who would co-ordinate production and who would see that the Services did not get out of step.
But, of course, the Prime Minister was so taken up with his own faulty appreciation of the situation that he took absurd steps, with both the Army and the Air Force, and then, to cap it all, he appointed a Minister of Defence who had no sense of politics at all and who eventually left that Ministry in a disastrous state.
I want to ask hon. Gentlemen opposite, many of whom sit for county divisions and are much more closely concerned with the Territorial Army than we are, what they would have said had the positions been reversed and in April, 1953, a Labour Minister had told the House that in future guided missiles were to be controlled by the Royal Air Force. Of course, that decision meant that Anti-Aircraft Command would have to cease. Anti-Aircraft Command and the whole of the Territorial Army were bound ultimately to be affected by that decision.
Then we wait from April, 1953, to 1st December, 1954–18 months—before the Minister of Defence tells the House that Anti-Aircraft Command has gone. Even now, three months later, the Army has not yet been told what the effect of that decision will be. It affects most of the Regular Army, it affects all the Royal Artillery and it enormously affects the whole conception of voluntary service inside the Territorial Army.
I do not want to argue for the vested interests in the Army, because I want to argue against vested interests in all Services, but I should have thought that if we had had to get rid of Anti-Aircraft Command, we should not have thrown it in the dustbin.
Air Commodore Harvey: I am sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman wants to be fair. As I understand it, in the last few months he has made a specialised study of aircraft production. He said that super-priority has been given to all aircraft production. So far as I know, he will find that super-priority was not given to Coastal Command, nor Transport Command, certainly not to the Canberra and not to some of the fighter programme.
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When he said we were not told about it, my recollection is that a statement was made in another place and the Undersecretary of State for Air referred to it here in an Estimates debate.
Mr. Wigg: One does need to be almost a Sherlock Holmes in this matter, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman is wrong in his facts. I was informed only yesterday that super-priority had been given to the Canberra at the same time as it was given to the fighters in 1952.
Air Commodore Harvey: What about the rest of it?
Mr. Wigg: The House of Commons does astonishing things. The House has never been informed. Super-priority was given to 11 different categories. It is true that on 3rd April, 1952, in another place there was an obscure reference by the Secretary of State for Air, but there has certainly never been a formal announcement of any kind in the House of Commons beyond the original statement by the Prime Minister which everybody to whom I have talked thought went no further than fighters. It was only yesterday that for the first time we realised that the Prime Minister had introduced something quite different, a step which he did not clearly understand.
I want to get back to this question of Anti-Aircraft Command and the Territorial Army. I should like the Minister of Defence to tell us when a scheme will come into existence which will define the future role of the Territorial Army. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us whether the National Service Acts as we know them are to continue with their part-time liability. Will the National Service men in regiments, which have been disbanded or amalgamated, be allowed to escape their liability for part-time service in the T.A.? The reason I am spending time on the point is that it illustrates the irresponsibility of the Government in handling vital problems; but, of course, I shall return to it in more detail on the Army Estimates debate.
I am sorry I was led astray to talk about the air in advance of that part of my speech which deals with it. We are told that we are to havea deterrent and the means to deliver it. Hon. Members on both sides talk in a rather firm way as if the means of delivering it is already with us. Never in my life have I listened

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to such nonsense. There is no secret about it, although the public is not aware of the facts because the Press and the B.B.C.—quite apart from the ban—do not give quite so much time as they might to informing the country about the realities of the defence situation. However, I shall not give away any secrets which are not in print.
At present we have 10 Valiants—and they have aileron trouble—one Victor and one Vulcan. I should like the Government to tell us how many they think we will have one year from now. Will it be 20, will it be 30, will it be50? I certainly do not think that it will be 50. It may be 30, but my own view is that we shall be lucky if we get 20. It is perfectly clear that the engine of the Valiant is not wholly satisfactory. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman when theR.A.28 will be fitted.
Until that V. bomber force is built up, it is idle nonsense to talk about the deterrent and the means of delivering it. The fact that we have a deterrent at the moment and the means of delivery arises from the fact that we are depending, as we have depended for the last 10 years, on the American Strategic Air Force. My main complaint against the Prime Minister's speech is that. he set out to deceive the House and the country. He used the discussion upon the hydrogen bomb as an alibi to divert attention from the White Paper itself.
Mr. Speaker:Once or twice I have had to object to the hon. Gentleman saying something which I do not think he intends to say, and that he is using words to suggest that another hon. Member intends to deceive the House. I must point out that that is contrary to the rules of order.
Mr. Wigg: Since babyhood I have been told so often to tell the exact truth that it becomes a habit. [Hon. Members: "Withdraw."] Certainly, if it conforms to the rules of order. To satisfy hon. Members—and I certainly want to satisfy you. Sir—I will substitute the word "mislead "for "deceive."
The Prime Minister comes here and ascends into the stratosphere in the hope that other people will follow him and that we shall spend no time in discovering the real facts of the situation. What we have set out to do in the aircraft industry, as in
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the whole field of defence, is to try to do too much. We are only a small island of 50 million people who still attach much more importance to a first-class honours degree in greats than to a successful career at a technical college.
That produces certain results, and we do not have the ability to work out an effective system of Civil Defence, to build up an air power in conformity with our strength, or potential strength; we have not the capacity to keep in the field an army of 11 divisions, with a reserve of 12 divisions and maintain a great Navy. If hon. Members will study the reply I had yesterday to a written Question about the amounts that have actually been spent—not voted but spent—on defence from 1951–52 onwards, they will see the extent of our failure. If I use strong words and hurt the feelings of hon. Gentlemen opposite, I am very sorry, but I have a duty to discharge, and it is incumbent on all of us to discharge our duty.
I said a year ago that I was quite sure that a year hence we would be weaker than we then were. If the present Government remain in office we shall be weaker a year hence than we now are. It is impossible for us to build up a great day fighter force with the Hunters that are available and the Javelin all-weather fighter—and here I intervene to describe that aircraft as lamentable a failure as the Swift, and events will prove that to be so—if at the same time we are trying to build up a V bomber force with guided missiles and the hydrogen bomb. If we do, we will end up with the picture that is painted for us in the White Paper.
There is no way out. And, of course, if at the same time we spend £350 million on men-of-war, we have to provide aircraft for them, and spend £20 million on aircraft, irrespective of whether they are any good or not. That is the basic picture which this White Paper presents. It is a different picture from the one given by the Prime Minister who performed a record feat of moving a Motion on defence without mentioning the Defence White Paper. That certainly was a wonderful performance.
Now I turn to what is the biggest bottleneck of all, the bottleneck of manpower. This House and the country have approved the maintenance of four divisions in Germany in perpetuity, but they

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will not stop there for many years longer because we are not recruiting enough men to keep them going. As part of its N.A.T.O. equipment, the House decided that they should be reinforced by 12 divisions, but we have overlooked the recruiting figures. The House has approved the expenditure of £500 million on aircraft, but even had we the aircraft we have not the men to maintain them. If hon. Gentlemen opposite would spend a little time studying these problems they would discover the interesting fact that the United States, with its enormous and colossal resources, found that in Korea they could not keep a considerable number of their aircraft operationally available because there were not the technicians to maintain them. There is a warning for us. If the Americans are short of maintenance personnel, what about us?
When it comes to the question of the Army, we have the record of the Secretary of State for War. Every year the position gets worse. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that recruiting figures are down by only a little, only by 10 per cent. We have tried every known method to get from the right hon. Gentleman an explanation of whether his new three-year recruiting engagement has proved a success. We are told that we must wait until May. The right hon. Gentleman has told us—I must be careful because he does not like me to say that he hopes—but it is on record in his own words that the Government require 33 per cent. of the Regular recruits to prolong their service, if the Army is to have the long-service N.C.Os. needed. My forecast is that the right hon. Gentleman will not get 10 per cent. So this year the Army is weaker than a year ago. The Prime Minister talked in 1952 of seven battalions imprudently cast away, but now they are not "imprudently" cast away, because the Prime Minister is in office and not the Leader of the Opposition. There will be more battalions cast away next year.
What we need to do is not to boast about systems of defence which exist on paper, or present "phoney" White Papers to the House. The Government have not spent within £150 million the amount which they have asked the House to vote. Certainly during the last two years an amount of £150 million has been saved on production. The right hon. Gentleman has done something of which he should
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be thoroughly ashamed. For a period of two years he has called to the Colours the young manpower of this country. They have not been adequately trained. Much of the money has been cast away. Our Armed Forces are inadequately armed and trained. They have not enough N.C.Os. The corps of officers is not up to scratch. In the past year a sum of £1,500 million has been wasted, and during the Government's period of office a sum of nearly £5,000 million has been wasted by the right hon. Gentleman's administration; also a sum of £800 million has been spent on aircraft. In return, all we get is the Defence White Paper and the White Paper on military aircraft. If the Prime Minister is not ashamed, he ought to be.
7.45 p.m.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke:There is no doubt at all that the hydrogen bomb has blown us into the upper stratosphere, and hon. Members have been returning to earth in most peculiar places and in frames of mind different from what one might have expected. The hon. Member for Southall (Mr. Pargiter), the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) and the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey) all made speeches very different from their usual form. Only the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) has been true to himself. He made exactly the same speech as he always makes in this House—misleading, misinformed and misanthropic.
Mr. Wigg: What?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Mis-anthropic.
After some time spent on irrelevancies and harking back two or three years into the past, the hon. Member for Dudley did begin to say something relevant to the White Paper which we are discussing, and I should like to follow him in that. I think that for the time being the House has had almost enough of the hydrogen bomb, and we have not spent enough time on some of the other detailed and important proposals contained in this White Paper.
I must say that the table in paragraph 63 fills me with alarm. It is the table giving the total active strength of the Armed Forces. As the hon. Member for Dudley pointed out, the figures for

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Regulars have been steadily reduced, or are being steadily reduced, until by 1st April, 1956, we get to something quite alarming. Against that, we have the extraordinary position that the intake expected into National Service is to go up in the same year. I do not know what that is due to; it may be that there were more boys born in 1938 than in 1937.
Mr. Wigg: Ask the Secretary of State for War.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Or perhaps it means that there is to be more drastic criteria for National Service so as to produce more men for the Fighting Services. Whatever may be the reason—and I hope we shall have some explanation—it paints a rather distressing picture; a picture of a nation undertaking its foreign commitments and discharging them increasingly on the basis of conscription and required service for the Colours and decreasingly on the basis of voluntary Regular full-time service in the Armed Forces.
I do not believe that that can be allowed to go on. Something will have to be done either to reduce the commitments, or to see that the burden of discharging them does not fall so heavily upon the conscripted element of the Armed Forces; or else something must be done to stimulate more effectively those who join the Regular Army as a career.
I have been looking at the American figures and they are very remarkable. The numbers drafted into the American Armed Forces, until recently, seem to be about 23 per cent. of the total of those serving; whereas in this country they appear to be 51 per cent.—according to figures recently given to this House by the Ministry of Labour. That means that out of the total of 289,000 available for call-up, 148,000 were actually called up—51 per cent.
How does it come about that this country, which is no more responsible for discharging the burden of the cold war than is the United States—or ought not to be with its smaller resources—is relying to the extent of 51 per cent. on those available for call-up whereas the Americans are relying on only 23 per cent.? The United States certainly has a larger manpower, and it is also a larger country with a more dominant position in the affairs of the world.
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I would further point out that in the last few weeks the Americans have cut their draft service by 50 per cent. They are now proposing to call up 11,000 a month instead of 23,000, which brings the proportion of drafted men of the total available down to 11 per cent. Has not the time come when our Government should think about some sort of very scientific and carefully worked out principles which would be thoroughly fair to every class and every profession so as to begin to approach a selective call-up?
Mr. Wigg: If the noble Lord would be kind enough to read the speeches of the Prime Minister when he was in opposition—September, 1950, is the date—he will find that the right hon. Gentleman made just this proposal, but that it, like every other proposal that he made when in opposition, was bogus.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: We all know that the hon. Member for Dudley is obsessed with what the Prime Minister says or does not say. Whether the Prime Minister cares to review the speeches which he made on this subject is a matter for himself.
The Americans have very carefully graded classes of exemptions and deferments. The exempted classes consist of most of what they call World War II veterans, the only surviving son of families which lost one or more sons or daughters in the war, and ministers of religion and students for the ministry under specified conditions. There are special exemptions for doctors, dentists and veterinarians. They have a system of deferment which includes certain members of the reserves, married men with children, high school students whose scholastic record is satisfactory, but who have neither graduated nor reached the age of 20, and married students who have not completed their academic courses.
I should have thought that we could begin to set up a principle of service which would increase exemptions or deferment on medical grounds, educational grounds and on grounds of personal hardship or of connections with businesses in difficult circumstances. I very much hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence will be able to say that these ideas are not altogether outside the comprehension of the Government at this time.

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I quite agree that we must not by any means reduce the overall period of National Service. I do not consider that we can afford to dispense with any of the last six months of training which are the vital months from the point of view of effective service. Any one of those months which was whittled away would result in those who are called up being of very little use to the Services.
I propose to conclude with one or two remarks about the hydrogen bomb. I do not want it to be thought that in anything I say I am being at all dogmatic. It does not seem to me that we are required to strike political attitudes or to stand for party policies on one side or the other. This is a grand debate which will go on for many months, or years. At present, we are not faced with a crisis. There is no threat of war such as would involve the use of the hydrogen weapon, and I believe that the House and the country have plenty of time in which to assess the position, to assure themselves that the course upon which the Government have embarked is right, and to prepare themselves for the future into which we are moving.
My attitude towards the nuclear bomb is that it is a weapon which is different not in degree but in kind from any weapon that has gone before. All wars in the past have been fought in order to secure a higher condition of peace for the victor Powers, and all wars have been entered into with the prospect of throwing back the compressing and terrifying aspect which an enemy presents at a particular point of time, of increasing the area of security, and of enlarging the conditions of peace.
That applied, perhaps, even up to the middle of the last war. With the mass bombing of the last war, we entered a different era. If we or conversely the Germans had anticipated it, the war might never have taken place at all. From that moment on, with the development of these terrifying new weapons, it seems to me that wars will only result in conditions which would be altogether intolerable for mankind.
That places a very different complexion on the use or the preparation for the use of these weapons. I am glad that the bomb is being manufactured because I believe that the very fact that it is in existence proves that we are living in an age when such wars cannot be, entered
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into with any prospect of victory arising out of them. It seems to me that if every country in the world—I do not care whether it is Russia, Communist China, France or Germany—manufactured the bomb, the world would be a safer place. The more, as I said once before in this House, the awful canopy of fate is held over the head of mankind, the more likely we are to remain at peace.
But very different conceptions arise—and here I strike a more controversial note—when we consider not only the hydrogen bomb at the base with the aircraft and missiles ready to set out, but also the forward tactical atomic weapons. If the hydrogen bomb is designed by scientists for the purpose of making wars altogether intolerable, then it ought to be unique in its place. If we range in front of it a mass of small-scale atomic projectiles, working up from the strategic weapon at the base to the forward lines of a supposed enemy, we then get to a situation in which if one of those weapons is used in a local situation on the boundary the whole world may catch fire.
I deplore what Field Marshal Montgomery has been saying on the subject of the development of these forward weapons by the North Atlantic Treaty Powers. He has said that they would be used instantaneously if we were attacked. I do not know that we should use them if we were attacked, and I do not want them to be there to be used if we are attacked.
Mr. Paul Williams: Will my noble Friend explain how Western Europe is to be defended if we are to denude ourselves of some means of defence?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Western Europe has been defended ever since the end of the war by the forces that have been created and placed there, and the diplomatic stand which we have taken. Do not let it be forgotten that the one serious incident in Western Europe since the war—the Berlin airlift—was overcome by a civil and not a military venture.
That is the situation as I see it. A still more controversial aspect applies to Civil Defence, if there is this unique difference in kind rather than in degree between the hydrogen and the atomic weapon on the one hand and conventional weapons on the other. What has made

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me more nervous about the United States than anything else is not the manufacture by that country of a hydrogen bomb but the fact that it is carrying out large-scale Civil Defence exercises—declaring on enormous placards that the roads are isolated and are to be used only for the evacuation of mass populations; making vast experiments in New York, isolating businesses, cutting off telephone services, turning off the electric light, and all the rest of it. If a nation gets itself into such a condition that it is fully prepared for war I believe that it may go to war.
I am not at all worried about the Russians having manufactured the hydrogen bomb, but I should be very alarmed if I heard that Moscow, Leningrad and other big Russian cities were being evacuated and that underground shelters were being built. If the Russians began that kind of propaganda in the Western world it might put us into a state of instant terror and readiness. Fortunately, that has not happened. If a man is armed both with a sword and a shield he is ready for war, but if he has a sword which, as we can see at this moment, is emblazoned at the edge with a blinding light—which is what the atomic bomb is—then perhaps he will simply hold it up as a symbol to mankind and not use it as an all-conquering weapon.
Other terribly practical conditions apply to any Civil Defence effort which matches up to this hydrogen bomb age. I am not talking about the ordinary level of Civil Defence exercises, and I am not adopting the attitude of the Coventry City Council. I am merely pointing out that not only upon the practical level but also upon the politico-moral level it is impossible both to manufacture this weapon and, at the same time, to undertake all the parallel ancillary services as well.
8.4 p.m.
Mr. Wilfred Fienburgh: Quite extraordinarily, it sometimes happens—and when it does it surprises both of us—that I form part of an uneasy axis with the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). I do so on this occasion, because I find myself in considerable agreement with what he said in the latter part of his speech, after he had emerged from the statistical morass in which he found himself when trying to deal with the argu-
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ments of my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg).
We are making a terrible mistake if we act upon the assumption that the decision to rely upon the deterrent effect of nuclear warfare is a strategic decision, or one which flows from any form of higher statesmanship. It is nothing of the sort. It is, in effect, the gambler's last throw. It is the final "double or quits" of warfare. As the noble Lord pointed out, 50 years ago it was possible for profit to flow from warfare. At the end of a war there was a division of spoils between the victors, and the vanquished could lick their wounds and try to adjust themselves to the new power situation and regenerate their energies so as to be able to alter the situation at the earliest possible opportunity.
Thirty years ago the balance of warfare became very much more even. The difference between victory and defeat was less distinct—but it was still possible for nations who emerged victorious from battle to preserve their territorial integrity. They did not have to suffer occupation or see the destruction of their cities. Ten years ago, with the advent of mass bombing, territorial integrity disappeared. This time, not only was there no victor or vanquished in the old sense of the term, but in the aftermath of war the vanquished had to be sustained by the strong. His civilisation had to be maintained by the victor.
We have now passed that stage and have reached the final gambling throw of "double or quits." On one side of the coin—and this is our hope—is peace, and, on the other side, is complete annihilation. There is no comparison between the two. That is why I disagree so much with some of the verbal hairsplitting which has been indulged in by hon. Members on both sides of the House. We cannot compromise upon this final gambler's throw. On one side of the coin is peace, or the maintenance of a cold war situation, and on the other side annihilation, or a situation where, if only a few limping surviving bombers of a massive fleet manage to reach their target, they can destroy a community, its people, its civilisation, and its store of social capital which has been garnered and nurtured through the ages. It can, in fact, transmute the very nature of the human race.

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It is, therefore, only honest to admit that this is a gambler's throw, and we should not try to pretend that we have reached this destructive situation by any strategic considerations or any act of high statesmanship. The march forward of scientists and men of good intention has made politicians realise that this is the last throw, and placed them in the position of having to decide how they are going to use it.
I can see no alternative to the gambler's throw, but we should take the decision without any illusions. The Prime Minister was guilty of creating some illusions in this matter this afternoon. He implied that the existence of the new nuclear weapons afforded a possibility that the threat to any potential enemy would be as great as the threat to these tight and crowded islands. That is just nonsense, as we can appreciate if we care to visualise the mounting, the carrying out and the aftermath of a thermo-nuclear war. The earth will not be blown out of its orbit. There will still be some form of life upon the earth, even if, as Dr. Oppenheimer has said, it will require a great act of faith to regard it as human. In the gathering together of the scraps of civilisation afterwards we shall be in a much worse position than any present potential aggressor.
The vast spaces of Russia and China cannot be affected to the same extent as the small and tight spaces of these islands. The hardy peasant stock of those countries is not as dependent upon a high superstructure of civilised services as we are. If ships cannot come to us we cannot feed, but those countries can feed off the land. Already, many millions of their peoples are on the edge of survival, and those in the hinterlands would not be so terribly worse off than they are now. In this kind of war Britain is completely expendable, and we have to recognise the grimness of that fact in making up our minds whether or not we should accept the challenge of this final gambler's throw.
The gamble must not be taken. Hon. Members on this side of the House who have pleaded that we should not manufacture the hydrogen bomb have implied that there is an issue of conscience involved. The implication that there is an issue of conscience flowing from their lips amounts simply to this: that they, as
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one of them put it, having descended far enough into the pit and having individually decided that they are not going to descend any further, means that those of us who reluctantly, grimly and despairingly admit that we must manufacture the hydrogen bomb are, in their words, descending into the pit. In other words, our consciences are not as theirs are. In other words, they are of some finer mould and purer clay than we are.
Mr. Kenneth Robinson (St. Pancras, North):I think that my hon. Friend is misrepresenting what my hon. Friend the Member for South all (Mr. Pargiter) said. He said that this country had gone far enough down into the pit and he was calling on this country to call a halt. He was not talking from an individual moral standpoint.
Mr. Fienburgh: I do not want to contradict my hon. Friend, but we can check it up in the morning and see who is right. He did say to my knowledge, and it is surely within the recollection of the House, that he reluctantly accepted the manufacture of the atom bomb and that he was individually determined that, having descended so far, he was prepared to descend no further.
The implication is that those of us who face up to reality a little further are somehow afflicted with a different kind of conscience, that we do not care and are not bothered, that we have not children whom we do not wish to see involved in an atomic or thermonuclear war. I say that is not so. It is not a matter of conscience. It is a matter of judgment. The judgment upon their side is that war can still be undertaken and that we can somehow survive if nuclear weapons are not manufactured.
The issue of judgment on my side is that I believe—I may be wrong, but I believe—and I desperately hope that the very manufacture of these weapons will provide the deterrent which will prevent that war from happening. That is not a matter of difference between my conscience and anybody else's conscience. It is a different judgment between myself and someone else, and I resent the implication that we are in some way different in conscience upon this matter.
I want to take issue with those on this side who think that there is some form of compromise, and in particular I want to

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take issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. Denis Healey) in his assumption that it is somehow possible to try to draw a line between the tactical and strategical uses of this kind of weapon. I made an interjection in his speech upon which, I think, those who heard it will know what I have in mind.
The point that my hon. Friend was making was that we must not too much fear the global destructive effect of thermonuclear war, that if we had the hydrogen bomb in our possession and the enemy had the hydrogen bomb, too, then we should, for our own protection, come to a mutual, exclusive pact, an implied pact, not a written pact, whereby we should drop our bombs only on the lines of communication of the enemy's advancing armies—which would, inevitably be Germany—and that they, because they did not wish to have bombs on their own cities would drop their bombs on the lines of communication of our contending armies, which would inevitably be in France.
If this is to be the strategy of thermonuclear warfare, where is the deterrent? The only people who would be deterred are those who have not got that type of deterrent. I cannot imagine the Kremlin, I cannot imagine the Politburo or Presidium suddenly saying, "My goodness, the possibility is that if we launch warfare the hydrogen bomb is going to be dropped on Germany. What a terrible deterrent that is."
We have to face this implication through to the bitter end, and the bitter end is that only when this terrible deterrent is threatened against aggression, and not at the periphery of aggression but threatened at the strategical centre then, and only then, do we get a small glimmer of hope out of this terrible weapon. If we try to pretend it is possible to continue with some form of conventional warfare, using the H-bomb as a sort of bonus, on one side or the other, not only do we not provide a deterrent but we destroy any hope of Western integration and of the use of N.A.T.O. as a form of Western economic co-operation to help us meet the cost of this thing.
We ought to face it. There is no compromise either in unilateral disarmament and refusing to be involved, and there is
1976
no compromise in the hope of a mutual, exclusive implied pact between one possessor of the hydrogen bomb and the other, that we shall chuck this thing around but not drop it on one another. The first point I would sincerely direct to my hon. Friends who oppose the use of this weapon is that it is hard to visualise a future war of major proportions without the use of this weapon at some time or another—if not at the beginning then in desperation at the end. There is no hope in pacts and signed agreements.
I agree with what the noble Lord said, that if we tried to use nuclear weapons as tactical weapons with ground forces the danger will always exist that the big one will be used sooner or later. I do not think that we can possibly avoid it. The moment it is used this island is expended and has no further part to play in war and can only hope to try to reorganise the bare bones of life for those who survive.
We must, therefore, ensure that war is not started. There are two ways of doing that. The first and infinitely the more desirablemethod is that of disarmament. There can be no argument about that. We are all united on that point. Unless, however, we can get a form of disarmament which embodies inspection and covers all forms of weapons then we are not just running a risk of an international war starting, but we must face the fact that sooner or later a hydrogen bomb war will start, even though in the initial stages the hydrogen bomb may not be used. Therefore, there must be complete disarmament, and with inspection.
If that is not obtainable, and at the moment it does not seem to be obtainable, then the alternative is to make it clear that if there is to be war, and we as a nation are to be destroyed, we shall pull the temple down about the ears of the world. That is a terrible thing to have to say, but the only defence of this island, and the only defence of humanity against these weapons, is to say that if it is used then we shall pull the temple down about our ears. In those circumstances, I hope, and my confidence is, that it will not be used.
Here I turn to an indictment of the Government, because I think that the censure motion is quite justifiable. I do not want to ramble over the points about the number of soldiers, or whether

1977
the period of service should be two or three years. However, the Government, having made their strategic appreciation, having accepted the gambler's last throw, have done very little to ensure that we have at least a chance of success in the throw. I, at least, want to make sure, if I am to have a gambler's last throw, that the dice are loaded on my side or, at least, to make sure that they are all right. At present, the dice are loaded against us by the inanition, the incompetence of the Government, due to their failure to adapt either their tactics or their strategy, or the organisation of the Services to the new situation. The Government have failed lamentably in fulfilling their responsibility. What is more, they show no sign of being able to live up to their responsibility within the next year or so.
It means a complete and radical reorganisation of all the Services, including Civil Defence. It means that we cannot afford nor do we need, if the deterrent is our weapon, a large conscript Army. We need a tidy, compact, striking force with its own tactical air force, able to move by air, with its own lines of communications, food supply and services of all kinds which will be able to pop around and be used like a fire brigade for all kinds of work, not only in Europe but, most likely. in the Far East, wherever trouble may develop.
It means that we need a new kind of Navy. I do not want to go into detail on these points, because they can be taken upon the Estimates, but to talk of producing capital ships, whether aircraft carriers or cruisers, even though they deliver projectiles which have no pilots and have special spraying devices to wash radio-activity off them after they have been bombed, is nonsense, in face of a situation where a battleship can be plucked out of the sea, thrown in again on its stern, turned over and sunk. This happened to one of the ships in an experiment by the United States with a relatively minor weapon some time ago.
There must be a complete reconstruction of the Navy, which the Government, for sentimental and traditional reasons, or from sheer incompetence, or from a failure to settle conflicting priorities among the Service chiefs, have completely failed to do.
Mr. D. Healey:I am very interested in my hon. Friend's argument, but if he is prepared to pull down the pillars of the temple why does he want to spend anything at all on these other Services?
Mr. Fienburgh: I shall do my best to show my hon. Friend a little later on, if he will just wait. AH the Armed Forces must obviously be reorganised. I do not say that they should be scrapped completely.
I come to the next indictment of the Government which is on the very point which one of my hon. Frends made, the dangerous imprecision of the White Paper. It is possible and easy to visualise two different sets of circumstances. One is the launching of a major war. There would be no doubt that it had happened, because it would be easily recognised. The other is the overspill of local actions, which would need to be dealt with quickly by a type of fire-brigade action.
The major deterrent problem is a European one where frontiers are defined, where political and ideological line-ups are clear, and where there is little confusion. An entirely different situation exists, in the Far East, for example, where there is always the danger of infiltration, subversion and uprising motivated by forces outside, which then rush in to help. These are an exploitation of little situations, of little bites leading to further bites.
In those circumstances, I would emphasise that we ought to have and be able to use the more limited, more refined and tightly-knit conventional striking forces which we need. One danger in this Government White Paper is its complete failure to indicate what is in which category. The Prime Minister made a confession when he said there was one dangerous blank about this strategy of the deterrent; that of the madman who suddenly pulls the trigger. I accept that this is a dangerous blank. There is another, the dangerous blank of not quite knowing where anybody stands at any given time, the dangerous blank of imprecision, of feeling that one is on the right side. One may feel, "If I can get away with this it will not mean that a nuclear deterrent will be used. This is something that I can try on the side." This would constitute a dangerously in definite situation. It is the purpose of a foreign affairs debate to define it, but

1979
there is the dangerous blank of confusion, out of which we may create the very thing we want to avoid.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Fienburgh: May I make my final point, before I am overwhelmed by the rush of hon. Members that will obviously launch itself upon me when I sit down?
We must realise that there can be no technical expertise, no hair-splitting and no delicate balancing judgments and guesses in this matter, such as were quite proper in the days before this terrible and absolute, this overwhelming, weapon had been created. We have to take the absolute decision, take it clearly and take it in the knowledge of all its consequences. We have to explain it to the people of this country, in the desperate hope that the gambler's throw that we are making will turn out the right way.
8.26 p.m.
Mr. Dudley Williams: I entirely agreed with the first and last parts of the speech of the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Fienburgh), but I found it a little difficult to understand the criticisms he made of the Government in between those two parts. In my remarks I will try to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallet). I would add my congratulations to those which he received on coming through the ordeal of a maiden speech in so gallant a fashion. I hope that we shall hear many contributions from him in the years to come.
My hon. and gallant Friend suggested that a useful step could be taken by working towards the amalgamation of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. I thought that point was a little bit controversial. He said that there would be no need to introduce a new uniform. I am wondering whether my hon. and gallant Friend wants the Royal Air Force to exchange its uniform for that of the Navy or wants the Royal Navy to join the Royal Air Force.
There are many obscurities in the defence problem about the functions of the various Armed Forces, but one thing is clear. In any major war which is likely to take place within the next twenty years the Royal Air Force will be our prime defensive weapon. I take
1980
the period of twenty years, because between ten and twenty years hence guided weapons will be introduced and extensively used and we shall probably see further radical changes.
It is, of course, the policy of the Government to place upon the shoulders of the Royal Air Force the burden of operating ground-to-air weapons, taking the place of Anti-Aircraft Command. No one can possibly judge at this moment whose responsibility it will be to operate all types of guided missiles when they are more fully developed, and I think it would be foolish to conjecture which Service will be charged with that responsibility.
When I say that it is the Royal Air Force which will be our prime offensive weapon in any war, I do not mean in any way to imply that the duties of the Army and the Navy are to be unimportant, or that either Service can be dispensed with completely. I do not think it would be possible to use the Royal Air Force effectively in war unless the other two Services were playing their full part, but it should be clearly understood that it is the function of the Army to hold the enemy back as far as possible and of the Navy to ensure that we have the necessary supplies brought to these islands so that the Royal Air Force can continue its work, but it should be clearly understood that their functions will be auxiliary to that of the Royal Air Force, and that the other two Services will not be able to play the major part.
In this deadly struggle that we envisage, there is no doubt whatever that we shall not be able to use our air power effectively unless it retains the greatest amount of flexibility and unless the power to concentrate our air weapon is under one control. If responsibility is divided between two Services, without any doubt there will be slowness in coming to decisions, inter-Service controversy will cause acute bitterness and there will be failure to respond at the correct moment.
The principal point which I wish to make tonight is that there is already some concern that inter-Service controversy is about to break out again between the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force on the question of the control of Coastal Command. There is considerable concern in Royal Air Force circles that determined attacks are to be made on the

1981
control of this Command within the next few months by certain highly placed naval officers. It is feared that there are to be attacks made with the object of getting this Command under the control of the Admiralty.
I hope that, if this matter is brought to his notice, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence will fight against any such move. I believe that any decision to place Coastal Command under the control of the Admiralty would be quite disastrous, and I think it would lead to such a division of control of our air arm in wartime that we should be brought face to face with defeat, and for this reason alone.
In the event of war we should be faced with a very drastic reorganisation of our air forces under the stress of war, and there is plenty of evidence to support my contention. In the last war, the air war—quite apart from the fine part played by the Fleet Air Arm—was not won by the forces under Coastal Command alone. At times, Coastal Command drew bombers from Bomber Command and fighters had to be drawn from Fighter Command, and these had to be transferred back to these Commands as soon as they were no longer required for the particular purpose for which they had been transferred to Coastal Command.
If Coastal Command is transferred to the Royal Navy, then, without any doubt, there will be a demand that that Command should have within it fighter and bomber wings so that it can function properly. In that event, we should find that the fighter and bomber wings were getting so large as to tend to affect the size of the force left available to the Royal Air Force. I cannot imagine a more disastrous state of affairs.
I was in Coastal Command in the 'thirties, when a struggle was going on between the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy on whether the Fleet Air Arm should be under naval or Air Ministry control. At that time, I was a junior officer. I found nothing in my relations with officers of the Royal Navy which made it difficult for me to carry out my duties. There was great sympathy between all junior officers. It was the more highly placed officers who carried on this argument, which, I think, caused great distress to those of us who had the
1982
humdrum jobs to do, and we certainly thought it was unnecessary.
I am not denying, of course, that the senior officers who carried on the earlier argument, and those who are likely to carry it on in the future, carried it on with the best intentions in the world. They certainly believed, as those who are likely to start it in the future will believe, that they were acting in the best interests of the Service to which they belonged; but those in the 'thirties—and, again, those today—did not see the damage they were doing to the whole of the country's air power by such behaviour.
Many of these appeals for the transfer of Coastal Command to the Admiralty are due to some concern felt by naval officers about the future of their own Service. To my mind, there are likely to be so many revolutionary changes in the functions of the Services over the next thirty years that no one can say what the duties of a particular Service are likely to be over the next generation. All that the Government can do at this juncture is to hang on to certain fundamental principles, and, in my opinion, the most important is that air power should be concentrated under one control so that it can inflict the maximum damage on any possible enemy potential. I maintain that this cannot be done by splitting the Royal Air Force into two.
8.37 p.m.
Mr. Edward Shackleton: In previous years I should have found myself in very considerable agreement with the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Dudley Williams). I have always taken the Coastal Command point of view, but I am afraid that Coastal Command, along with the Navy, is rather out of date in the present situation. Nonetheless, I think it would be admirable if all three Services made a kind of non-aggression pact that they would stop trying to pinch bits of the territory of another Service.
I should like to draw the First Lord's attention to a rumour which is going round. I considered very carefully whether I should mention it, but it is now so widespread that I believe some official statement should be made on it at some time. It is that the future First Sea Lord is alleged to have said to his officers in a private meeting in Malta that

1983
he would not be back in this country for more than two months without getting hold of Coastal Command. I say this advisedly. I have no reason to know whether it is true, but the rumour is very widespread, and it would be a good thing if that canard could be laid. I hope the Minister will realise that I have raised the question in the interest not only of the R.A.F. but of all others concerned.
Let me turn to the motion of censure. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Fienburgh) and others, who dislike the hydrogen bomb as much as I do, that it is a weapon of a completely different kind. It is, I believe, a weapon of absolute decision, and that is why I believe it is unavoidable that it should be made; and I think it is essential that those of us who feel very unhappy about it, as do some of my hon. Friends who have spoken today, should bring ourselves to face the probability that if war breaks out on a major scale it is almost a certainty that the hydrogen bomb will be used.
My desire to recognise this fact is because I believe that, if it is recognised, then we increase the chance that everybody will be aware of what war means and that war will therefore be avoided.
Although the Government have been attacked from both sides of the House on the ground of ambiguity, they seem to have come down in favour of the view which I have just outlined. Paragraph 24 of the White Paper reads:
"…the free nations must base their plans and preparations on the assumption that if a major war were precipitated by an attack upon them they would have to use all the weapons at their disposal in their defence."
Unlike some of the views of my hon. Friends, that seems to me to be a clear statement that they are prepared to use the hydrogen bomb in certain circumstances. Obviously one would assume that it would be used only when war in the biggest and widest sense was going to break out. It is most important that that statement should be made absolutely clear. It is rather unfortunate that the White Paper rather mars the effect of that statement by the rather excessive emphasis on conventional weapons.
I turn again to the implications of thermonuclear strategy. If we accept that—and I think that the intentions of the Government in this respect are clear—they
1984
must carry their conclusions further. The Minister of Defence is in a difficult position. He has three fairly unruly children—the Navy, Army and Air Force—children who are older than their parent, which is an added difficulty. There has been great competition between the three Ministries to put out the best story. I think this year's essay prize was won by the Admiralty, and lost by the Air Force with the War Office somewhere in between. That may be a consolation to those sailors who were rather distressed by last year's rather dim statement.
I am sure the Minister of Defence, who as an experienced politician is feeling his way carefully, will move to the point where he is able to do something about these competing interests. I think it is accepted by everyone that the ultimate pattern of defence is, to a large extent today, determined by a certain measure of competition and bargaining between the three Services. We have, for instance, the wonderful statement on the Navy in the White Paper that
"The development of weapons of mass destruction is the most recent of a long series of changes which the Navy has had both to meet and exploit throughout the centuries."
I can imagine a day coming when the Navy might say that the end of the world is the last of a long series of changes that the Navy has had to face through the centuries. Quite frankly, although perhaps not unfairly, I am regarded as having a certain amount of prejudice on this subject, I cannot for the life of me see, in the light of the declared intention of the Government in regard to thermonuclear warfare, how we can justify the expenditure of £350 million on the Navy. That goes not only for carriers but also for anti-submarine work.
When the Minister of Defence was in Opposition, he once frightened the House by talking about 500 and, on one occasion, 1,000 Russian submarines. I believe the Russians have put over an extremely successful bluff in regard to naval strength and have been aided by the British Admiralty. The Admiralty issued a statement during the summer about 500 submarines, but the Minister of Defence and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty know perfectly well that large numbers of those submarines are of a degree of obsolescence which would have rendered them ineffective in the last war. If the Minister of Defence is to write a

1985
better White Paper, if he should ever have the opportunity to produce one again on defence—we do not know when the General Election will be, but supposing that next year he is still there—I believe he has somehow to start in train actions which will lead to an end of this inter-Service competition.
I do not subscribe to the view which certain hon. Members have expressed, including the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) in a very interesting maiden speech, that we can solve these problems merely by joining the Navy and the Air Force. There are many reasons that we could adduce against that as a satisfactory answer. The problem is not merely to find an outlet for the officers and men in the Royal Navy, but to give this country an effective national defence. I think that the breaking down of three empires into two is not going to help this. I would like to see some sort of steps being taken towards that end.
It is not only the Navy whom we regard as being possibly out of date. In another 10 or 20 years, the Air Force may be out of date. We hope that by then the Air Force will have had some of the bombers that it has been promised, and by the time that it has had them we may be moving into an age when guided missiles take the place of the piloted bomber.
Despite all the difficulties, we should now quite seriously ensure that there is some investigation and attempt to find out what steps are necessary to produce a single defence force. If we were today to sit down and plan for the first time the defences of this country, one thing of which I am quite sure is that we would not start off with a Navy, an Army and an Air Force. We would start on a completely different principle. If we could move towards some form of unified force along the, lines already proposed by senior officers of great distinction, one of whom, General Weeks, I think, came out with a proposal that of all officers of staff rank or above the rank of captain, colonel or group captain should automatically hold commissions in all three Services, that would be a step towards that integration. These officers would not necessarily have to change their uniforms, but at least that arrangement would convey the idea of a unified
1986
approach. I therefore urge that it should be considered.
I believe that the Government in the White Paper have lamentably failed to follow logically through the consequences of their own principles. Furthermore, they have not attempted to set out the real difficulties that lie in the way of an effective disarmament programme. It might be unfair to suggest that a White Paper is the right place for that. In 1946 or 1947, the proposals for international control and ownership of atomic energy had a reality; they were possible. It was possible, I believe, to carry them out. I do not believe that those particular proposals would today be effective. They must involve a much wider measure of pacification and must mean general disarmament as well.
I therefore urge the Government that whatever they do with regard to the Armed Forces—and I do not think they have done as well as at one time they thought they would do—they should press on with the disarmament theme, making clear to the general public at home and abroad that it is the only answer, that there are tremendous difficulties in carrying it out, and that until that day comes we must base our defence and our protection no longer on a conception of armed defence, but on the principle that if war breaks out we all commit suicide together. It seems to me that we have reached that point today, and that if we face up to that boldly, war can still be prevented and ultimately we shall get to the point when general disarmament becomes possible.
8.48 p.m.
Mr. Julian Amery: Hon. Members who follow football results will perhaps think it appropriate that the representatives of Preston should be in the semi-finals tonight. The course of the debate today has shown that the critics of the Government, in this as in some other matters, are rather divided. Some attack the Government for having done too little and others for having done too much, while a few attack the Government for doing anything at all.
The hon. Members for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) and Dudley (Mr. Wigg) and other hon. Members opposite have for some time been alleging that the failure, as they call it, of the weapon programme of the

1987
present Government has endangered the national security. I should like, first, to try to face that problem.
It is difficult for an amateur to pronounce on a matter of this kind, but I wonder whether our present preparations are really inadequate to meet our present dangers. Is it suggested that Soviet bombers—not the prototypes, but the ones in the general service—are superior to our existing defences? Surely it is not the contention of hon. Gentlemen opposite that the Soviets yet possess operational long-range missiles to drop on this country.
Is it even sure that they have the hydrogen bomb, let alone the power to deliver it? I think the "Economist" rendered us a service at the weekend when it pointed out that there is no reliable evidence yet that either the Americans or the Russians have produced a hydrogen bomb that can be dropped out of an aeroplane. We have to remember all the time that these catastrophic developments in the art of warfare still lie in the future. It is one of the merits of the White Paper that most of it is written in the future tense.
We must also remember that the basic assumption on which it is written—it is, indeed, the same basic assumption on which the Chiefs of Staff worked in 1947—is that we are still living behind the protective shield of American supremacy in nuclear weapons. The Government may be right or they may be wrong in this assumption, but it is irresponsible of the Opposition to say that we are unprepared to provide the nation with the security which it requires.
It is irresponsible to make that charge, unless, like the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman), they are prepared to challenge the basic assumption that there will be no war so long as the period of American nuclear supremacy continues. Are hon. Members opposite prepared to challenge that assumption? We ought to know that. If they are not, then they must accept that we have an interlude in which we have time to negotiate and to prepare.
The second charge we on this side of the House have to answer is whether we shall be prepared not for present dangers, which are not particularly grave, but for
1988
the hour of crisis when it comes; the time when, to use the phrase of the Prime Minister, saturation point is reached?
I think that the critics of the aircraft production programme rather failed to assess the changes that have taken place in the problem of supply. Before the advent of the atomic bomb the problem of supply was one of production. Today, it is one of development. In those days we needed many aircraft to drop comparatively small bombs at fairly short ranges. Quality was important, of course, but it counted much less in relation to quantity than it does today. The low speeds, low altitudes, fairly simple weapons—all helped to simplify the problem of design.
That situation has now changed completely. What are needed are small numbers of aircraft to drop big bombs. To some extent that simplifies the problem of production, but just because the numbers are small and the costs are great, quality has to be very high. Moreover, as the aircraft are moving into higher speeds, longer ranges, and higher altitudes all the time, we are entering into spheres of which we have little experience and which calls for constant adjustments.
It is no longer a question of designing an aircraft and then creating it, but of designing it and then developing it. It is the difference between the seven day creation of the Book of Genesis and the evolution of the "Origin of the Species." The basic principle of the Darwinian theory was the survival of the fittest. Shall we be among the fittest when the moment of crisis comes? That is the test. If hon. Members have reason to doubt it—I have heard no arguments advanced to sustain any doubts of that kind—they will have a right to vote against the Government tomorrow night, not otherwise.
There are other critics who take the line that we are trying to do too many things at the same time. That view was put up with considerable clarity and, in the words of the editor of the "New Statesman," with considerable courage by the hon. Members for Dudley and Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). They took the line that we must make the hydrogen bomb, but that we should cut our ground forces to the bone and rely on the diplomatic skill of a hypothetical Labour Government to achieve a success in the field of disarmament.

1989
It is an attractive argument to say that conventional weapons are obsolete and to ask why, in that case, we should waste the time of our young men and the money of our taxpayers by maintaining ground forces which do not count any more. It is quite a well-timed argument politically, but it seems to me remote from strategic as distinct from electoral realities.
We are really only on the edge of the hydrogen age and about a decade, perhaps more, from the long range intercontinental guided missile. For the time being, and perhaps permanently, the deterrent power of the hydrogen bomb depends upon its being combined with ground forces. If there were no ground forces, the Soviets could over-run Europe in a very few days, and they would then hold a tremendously powerful bargaining counter. They would be situated in a place where most of us—perhaps not the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell)—would hesitate to drop atomic bombs. They might be powerfully mauled by reprisals or retaliation, but, even so, they would be in possession of a very powerful asset.
We have, therefore, got to have a holding force on the ground in Eastern Europe or Central Europe to prevent the Soviets over-running the Western part of the Continent while our superiority in nuclear and thermonuclear weapons takes effect. The need for the 12 German divisions is, therefore, as great as ever, and even with them we shall probably only be able to form an effective covering force with the help of tactical atomic weapons.
There is one other reason why I think ground forces are particularly important. This island is peculiarly vulnerable to nuclear and thermonuclear attack because of its small size. One day that very smallness may be an advantage. It may be that when the scientists have discovered the antidotes to control the terrible powers which they have let loose, living in a small area will give one the advantage of being able to concentrate the means of protection. But that time has not come yet.
For the moment we face two dangers. First, there is the danger of the bomber. To some extent we can meet that danger with radar, with fighter aircraft and by counter attacks against enemy bomber
1990
bases. There is the other danger of the long range ballistic rocket, and against that there is no defence at all. Fortun-nately, no one has made such a rocket yet. There are short range rockets, but they had better stay where they are, on the other side of the Elbe.
It seems to me essential, therefore, for the survival of this island that we should pursue the strategy of what has been called "forward defence." The need for Western Union and the German contingent is as great as ever, and I think it would be tragic if there were, as the hon. Members for Dudley and Coventry, North have urged, any weakening in British support and membership of this cause.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) made a speech which I can only describe as moving a motion of censure by innuendo. There was no outright attack on any aspect of the broad strategy of the Government, but there were lots of side attacks. One of them I thought very disturbing. I had thought that the Amendment meant that the Opposition accepted the need for the building up of deterrent power in this island. I am bound to say that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman cast a certain doubt upon this. He seemed to be saying that we should not be justified in using the deterrent nuclear power against an all-out attack by conventional weapons.
Mr. Shinwell: I did not myself express an opinion on that matter. I merely asked the Prime Minister what was meant by the statements in the White Paper. I did not get a reply to my question. I quoted what Field Marshal Montgomery had said on behalf ofN.A.T.O., from which I gathered that nuclear weapons of high quality would be used in the event of a conventional attack. I wanted to know whether that was the proper interpretation of what appeared in the White Paper, and I still await an answer.
Mr. Amery:I think, if I am not mistaken, that the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that if that were the case he would not be associated with such a view.
Mr. Shinwell: I am extremely sorry. The Official Report will record my view on the matter and I assure the hon. Member that I have not made any correction to it. I did not express a view myself. I merely wished, as I have always said,

1991
to have the Prime Minister's interpretation of what appeared in the White Paper.
Mr. Amery: I am sorry if I have misrepresented the right hon. Gentleman in that way. No doubt it was the way he asked the question that left that impression on my mind.
I believe that that kind of view—and it was taken by other hon. Members on that side of the House—is terribly dangerous. It is terribly dangerous to say that we are ready to have the hydrogen bomb as a deterrent, but with an inward reservation that if it ever came to the test, we would not use it. Nothing could be more dangerous in this matter than to bluff. It is no use having a deterrent unless you have the moral determination to use that deterrent. There is no sign from the other side of the Iron Curtain—if they have a nuclear weapon—that they will weaken.
It is very tempting to rely on a deterrent with the reservation of contracting out, but it would be a fearful mistake. The danger of war may have diminished through the advent of the new weapons. It may be likely, but it is not certain that we shall be able to avert another war. In ancient times even civilised nations were prepared to risk losing half their people in a battle. It would be foolish to underestimate the significance of Mr. Molotov's remark that another war would be the end not of civilisation, but of capitalism. The danger is real enough. The event would be unspeakably grim, but that is no reason to capitulate to Communism in advance. The hydrogen bomb may be a great leveller, but there is no total equality in these matters. To paraphrase George Orwell's "1984," all would be annihilated in a nuclear war, but some might be more annihilated than others. It may be foolish to talk about winning a hydrogen war, but I am certain that one can lose such a war. The great strength of the Government is that they have proclaimed their determination to face this power rather than to submit to Communism. Napoleon once said that the British never knew when they were beaten. It is this attitude which alone may prevent a war and ensure that if war should come, something at least should be saved.
9.3 p.m.
Mr. Woodrow Wyatt: I think that the hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) is the first speaker from the Government side really to attempt to defend the Government against this motion of censure that we have moved. I hope to show that his defence is not fully adequate to the occasion. This debate has emphasised that no one can claim to have a complete answer to the problem of defending this country in the future. We admit that. It is therefore a fair question to ask why we have put down this Amendment. It is because it is right and important to censure the Government for failure to plan for the known possibilities and failure to provide weapons on which so many millions of pounds have been spent.
The known future possibilities in war are, I think, in four broad categories. The first one is that nuclear weapons will be used against the home countries of the participants. The second is that nuclear weapons, by tacit consent and because of the self-interest of the promoters of the war, will be used only in the area of the battlefield. The third possibility is that nuclear weapons are not used even on the battlefield in a major war because the belligerents are afraid that they cannot be confined to the battlefield and fear the consequences of their use against their own civilian population. I thought that point was put very effectively in the remarkable maiden speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Croy-don, East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett).
I think that we should not rule out both those two last possibilities that I have mentioned. Once we do completely rule them out, we are committed to an act of national suicide in our own self-defence. I do not put it any higher than the proposition that they are possibilities.
The fourth possibility is that there are no further major wars but, as a product of the cold war, there may be local wars of varying degrees of size and intensity. These last may be so large as to engage very large parts of the armed forces of the belligerents. They would certainly involve the use of every new development and invention of modern weapons short of the nuclear. Indeed, this last category of war may be the war against which we have chiefly to guard, and Korea has set the pattern in this field.

1993
These possibilities present a perplexing prospect to the defence planner, and we can sympathise with the new Minister of Defence in approaching his task. But there are some constant factors on which the Government can plan and should already have planned. One is the dominating importance of power in the air, whether it is required as a deterrent for the delivery of nuclear weapons in the ultimate and most ghastly form of war, or whether it is needed in the lesser forms of war to defend this country from the air, to cover the seas and to protect and assist our ground troops in battle.
From this undisputed fact of the decisiveness of power in the air flows the other constant factor. It is that the best organisation and the most highly developed weapons to deal with the acute but lesser forms of war also provide the greatest hope of clinging to life and survival in the most severe forms of war. It is these constant factors which ought to be, and ought for some time to have been, the theme of our defence planning.
The Prime Minister referred again this afternoon to his astonishment when he read the speech of Mr. Sterling Cole, which I think was made on 17th February last year, describing the effects of the hydrogen bomb. That hydrogen bomb explosion took place over a year before, and we cannot believe that the Government had no inkling whatever that such an explosion had taken place or was about to take place. It is a little late now, more than two years after that explosion to say that they have not been able to make any new arrangements in their planning. They have indeed greatly neglected these two constant factors.
The Prime Minister made no reference whatever this afternoon to the part of the motion of censure—the Amendment—which affects these particular aspects. He gave no answer to the criticisms in the Amendment, and I believe that was because he did not feel that there is an adequate answer. He used his familiar technique of talking as much as he could about something else in order to divert attention from the main motion of censure.
I should like to begin with the situation with regard to power in the air. Briefly, the position is that, apart from some 300 Canadian-made Sabre F86's, ordered by my right hon. Friend when he was
1994
Minister of Defence in the last Government, there are no British modern fighters able to fly with 100 per cent. operational effectiveness. We have disbanded the greater part of Anti-Aircraft Command, but we have no guided missiles with which to replace it; although the Americans have already ringed important centres in the United States with protective missile-launching platforms.
In their White Paper on the supply of military aircraft, the Government claim that we have an effective air defence against anything which a potential enemy would be able to bring against us, and that by night we have a better defence than anyone else in the world. Both those claims are ridiculous, especially the latter. They are both dangerously misleading, and I do not think they should have been made, thus deluding the country.
The Meteor and the Venom night fighters on which a great part of this claim to have the most effective night fighter defence rests are both incapable of catching the present Russian bombers which we might expect to have used against us.
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: Which are they?
Mr. Wyatt: The ones which have been flying at between 500 and 600 miles an hour and about which we have seen reports in the newspapers. We can be quite sure that there are others about which we have not heard.
As I have already said, we have no guided missiles, so that we have to rely entirely on our admittedly highly efficient system of radar warning and control, without the ability to put into the air anything with which to counter the bombers which we may know are overhead. That is the whole extent of the Government's claim to have the best night fighter defence in the world, and we are hardly better off by day. On 16th April, 1953, Lord De L'Isle and Dudley said:
"It is no good imagining that our relative position in the air … … is good—and I speak not so much of numbers as of performance …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 16th April, 1953; Vol. 181, c. 883.]
Practically nothing has happened since under his administration to improve it. We have some 80 Hunters not yet fully airworthy. They cannot fly in formation, which is an indication that they are out of control. When I say "not yet fully airworthy," I mean not able to fire their guns at certain altitudes without damage

1995
to the performance of the aircraft. I think that is an admitted fact, indeed, Ministers have admitted that in this House on several occasions recently. We have no Swifts that can perform a fighter versus bomber role.
Air Commodore Harvey: The hon. Gentleman has made a statement which may appear in the foreign Press and which may do this country great harm. He said that the Hunter could not fly in formation at all. But an all-party delegation went to see them only 10 days ago, and saw them landing in formation.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Wyatt:There is a distinct difference between landing in formation and flying at speed and at high altitude in formation.
Air Commodore Harvey: And flying?
Mr. Wyatt: We have also, I am afraid, a grave prospect ahead over the all-weather plane, the Javelin Fighter, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) referred this afternoon. I understand that it has a fuel capacity of only 800 gallons, which gives it a very short time in the air—far too short a time for the tasks which it may be called upon to perform. If the present Javelin flies slowly the tail sinks and the wing blanks out the tail to that there is no control over the plane. I think that it would be very optimistic to expect to see it in service for some years to come.
Even on the deterrent side, we are sadly behind schedule. We rely on obsolete Canberras and Lincolns, and the other bombers are not coming on as they should, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley pointed out in his very able speech today. Everybody knows that there is a grave crisis in aircraft production. The Government like to claim that it is the fault of the Labour Government. Although we have not been in office for three and a half years, nevertheless anything which goes wrong is still our fault. It shows a rather touching faith in our ability to foresee the future and to govern even when we are not in office.
First, the party opposite says that the decision that supersonic flight was not possible for manned aircraft was at the root of the trouble. That decision was only operative for a few months. No Gov-
1996
ernment could have overridden the scientific advice received on the matter at the time. If they had, and if there had been fatal accidents, the then Opposition would rightly have been able to criticise that Government.
Secondly, we are told that the 1949 economic crisis cut off much-needed finance. I am perfectly willing to concede that caused some slight delay, but this was before high priority was given to rearmament in the 1950 and 1951 rearmament programmes, which were later taken over by the present Government. I do not think that this fact can be said to have had a good deal of effect upon what has happened since this Government have been in power. Thirdly, we are told that the trouble is caused because the Labour Government planned too big a step forward from the old type of aircraft to the swept-wing type, without having any intermediate aircraft. Although it is important, that does not account for the Government's failures in the last three and a half years.
Upon coming into office the Government gave us a clean bill for what we had done in the matter of the supply and production of aircraft. Time and again Government spokesmen congratulated us upon what we had and forecast a rosy future. I could quote for another hour from Government speeches illustrating this point, but in order to save the feelings of the Under-Secretary of State for Air I shall not do so. I shall, however, quote a little of what he said in a moment. At the same time that they were giving us a clean bill the Government announced a scheme of super-priority to get fighter aircraft, and, later, bombers into production. That was at about the time when the Prime Minister said that he felt naked. The Government then had no feelings that there would be any difficulty over production.
During the debate upon the Air Estimates in 1952, in referring to the concern about delays which had been expressed by the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Lucas)—who knows a great deal about these matters—the Under-Secretary said:
"He suggested, also, that none of the Swift and Hunter fighters would be introduced into service in 1952-53 or, perhaps, even in 1953-54. It is unwise to prophesy, but I shall be disappointed if this suggestion is not proved wrong in the event."—[Official Report, 18th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 2273.]

1997
It is indeed unwise to prophesy. Next year the Prime Minister said that the rate of deliveries of aircraft and equipment was in most cases satisfactory and up to expectations. During the debate upon the Air Estimates in March, 1953, the Under-Secretary of State said:
"We intend to form our first squadrons of Swifts towards the end of the year and Hunter squadrons will follow."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th March, 1953; Vol. 512, c. 1515.]
Where are they? In the Memorandum to the Air Estimates in 1953 we were told that a Valiant bomber would be entered in the London—New Zealand air race in October, 1953—which showed that the Government thought that preparations for it were well advanced. When October came there was no Valiant; only an excuse. The Under-Secretary also announced that he hoped that the Valiant would be in operation in 1954, but it is still not in operation.
It is unfair to go on quoting from speeches by the Under-Secretary, because he has been made the victim of his Government's policy, and we know that he is only the ultimate spokesman for what has been done by other people. I think that all hon. Members on this side of the House admire his courage and tenacity in dealing with Questions and other difficult topics which are thrust upon him. Nevertheless, the words are there, and I do not think that we can refrain from bringing them out once again. Last year he said:
"…because of the immensely improved cannon which the Hunter and Swift will carry, the rate at which the day fighter force as a whole will be able to hurl high explosive against the enemy will be increased by more than nine times in the coming year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1954; Vol. 524, c. 1366.]
That is not so.
In the face of all these promises, after the Government had been in full possession of all the facts for months and, in some cases, for years, no charges whatever can be laid against the late Labour Government. All these promises of future expectations have been made by the Government with knowledge of all the facts and without any sideways blame—and not very much credit—being given to the Labour Government.
The Hunter has been delayed partly because there has been a certain amount of disorganisation in the firm making it. This is only a minor reason, but it is a
1998
reason, and I understand that the Ministry of Supply has now told the firm to cut down the building of this aircraft from 30 a month to 25 a month until certain alterations and processes are completed. This is not the fault of the firm. It has never had adequate supplies of parts, and super-priority has not been able to give it even a smooth flow of copper piping. Consequently, there have been many idle hours in this factory. This is typical of the sort of thing which has been going on in the aircraft industry. There have been 325 modifications of one mark of the Hunter alone. I agree that the modifications were not in all cases very serious ones, but nevertheless there were 325.
When this plane first flew in the autumn of 1951, it was discovered that the air brakes were completely unsatisfactory, and it was not until last summer, nearly three years later, that manufacture began on the modification to make the air brakes work. That was the fault of the Government's arrangements; it could not have been the fault of the Opposition.
The Minister of Supply said yesterday that there were no modifications made to the Hunter since October, 1951, which were intended to extend its performance beyond that originally conceived. I understand that one such modification was made only recently. It was a major modification to the wings in order that more fuel tanks could be fixed so that the plane could take on more fuel to give it more flying time. That is a modification intended to extend the performance beyond that originally conceived. Modifications, as the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick knows, are at the root of many of the delays in the production of aircraft, and they come about, broadly speaking, in three ways. First, at the request of the Ministry of Supply inspectors to bring the plane up to the safety standards or other Ministry of Supply specifications; secondly, as the result of the experience of the pilots flying the planes; thirdly, as the result of requests of the Royal Air Force to add something to the performance of the plane that was not originally intended.
This constant demand for modification, coupled with the inability of the Government to make up their minds, has caused the delay with this plane, the Hunter, and the other planes of which we have had

1999
all these complaints. The Government can in no way blame that on to us. Super-priority failed miserably because it gave priority to everything, and not to one or two things in particular. That it failed and that the wrong method was being used is shown by the fact that on 1st March, 1954, the Minister of Supply announced a completely new system to clear up the muddle created by the Government in the aircraft industry. If super-priority had worked—and it had been in operation then for two years—the Minister of Supply would not have found it necessary to make a special announcement in this House—and a very long one—describing the arrangements for the new system to supersede super-priority.
If we are to get these aircraft and guided missiles, we must first of all have a vigorous, energetic and forthright Minister, because I do not think that the fault has lain so much with the structure of the Ministry of Supply as in the way it has been operated. The Prime Minister knows this, or he would not have appointed Lord Beaverbrook as Minister of Aircraft Production during the war. Somebody of at least equal enthusiasm ought to have been appointed to drive through these projects. Instead he appointed the present Minister of Housing and Local Government, and I do not think he will object if we feel it was not a very successful appointment.
The Minister of Supply must cease to be a post office. He ought to be second in rank to the Minister of Defence. He ought to have the authority to veto the additional modifications demanded by the Services as and when he thinks fit. Other wise there will be no end to the modifications. There ought to be some kind of control over the electronics industry. By their financial policy the Government have encouraged the electronics industry to stop work on defence and to work almost entirely on making television sets. There have already been considerable hold-ups ——
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: That is wrong.
Mr. Wyatt: I cannot give way to the hon. Gentleman. I was saying that there had been considerable hold-ups in the delivery of radar equipment for aircraft, and there are going to be even more grave delays. Perhaps the Minister of Supply
2000
when he speaks tomorrow will deal with the point which the hon. Member tried to raise.
A number of aircraft firms of longstanding reputation have now fallen down on design. Some contracts ought to be cancelled where this is the case. We are trying to make too many types of aircraft. At the moment we are trying to make some 50 or 60 different types, and we have not the technicians to do it. These ought to be ruthlessly cut down to some 15 at the outside. In other words, we must attempt to rationalise the aircraft industry if we are to get a supply of aircraft. So much for the aircraft. I want very briefly to refer to the Navy.
Some authorities now agree that the future of the aircraft carrier is at least questionable. All authorities agree that the future of the battleship and the heavy cruiser is non-existent. Yet the Government still——
Captain Robert Ryder: The hon. Gentleman has just made the assertion that some authorities agree that the aircraft carrier is no longer required. How does the hon. Gentleman propose to afford protection to our ships at sea?
Mr. Wyatt: I said that the future of the aircraft carrier was questionable. I was not suggesting that they should all be scrapped. We should certainly keep some, particularly for use in cold war operations. I said that the future was questionable. I do not think the aircraft carriers justify the great expense we have had on them so far. We certainly cannot afford the expense of refitting some of the battleships, like the refitting of the "Vanguard," which is completely pointless. We are laying up men, munitions and money on some of these ships which are useless and would be floating death traps if a war came.
The Government have been trying to invent new roles for the Royal Navy because of the great affection and esteem in which the Royal Navy has always been held in this country, but I do not think they correspond with the realities of future war. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton), who said that if we could begin again on defence we would have only one Service. That is correct. At least we might make a start by

2001
attempting to move towards a merger between the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy. We could have the Fifth Sea Lord sitting on the Air Council and an Air Marshal sitting on the Board of Admiralty, and we should make the personnel of Coastal Command and the Fleet Air Arm interchangeable. Moves of this kind would be towards the integration which must come.
The Explanatory Statement on the Navy Estimates is the saddest document I have read for years. It is a brave document, which tries to look into the future, whereas the memoranda produced by the other Forces do not make any attempt to do so at all. For that the Navy must be congratulated. The document is the epitaph of the old Royal Navy, as we knew it. That is now as dead as Nelson.
I would like to hurry from the Navy to the Army, which isof prime importance in cold wars, and in a major war should nuclear weapons be used only, tactically and not away from the battlefield? I have no hesitation in saying that, if war broke out in Germany today, even if it were only the cold war variety—say, a war in which Eastern Germany, supported by the Russians, attacked Western Germany, which would be supported by ourselves—the four divisions which we have in Germany would be massacred, even without the use of nuclear weapons. In Normandy, we just managed to maintain the cumbrous British divisions when we had overwhelming air superiority with which to do it. Today, it is the Russians, with over 20,000 front line aircraft available for a war in Europe against our 6,000 front line aircraft, who have overwhelming air superiority. It is not us, and we in this country have not yet realised that.
The British division contains over 22,000 officers and men and 5,000 vehicles, and an armoured division has 6,000 vehicles. In the event of war, these would be blasted to pieces without recourse even to nuclear weapons. The Government are putting the British Army in Germany, in its present state of organisation, into an extremely grave and dangerous position. The Memorandum on the Army Estimates is complacently satisfied with our organisation, as though we were at the tail end of the last war instead of being in entirely new conditions.
2002
The British division ought to be entirely remodelled. In my view, it should not contain more than 10,000 men, and we should remember that the Germans, who are more expert than anybody in warfare, are going to start with divisions of less than 12,000 men, and will be very content to do so. The division should be something like an enlarged brigade group. It is known that, to have any chance of success, the supply of troops in forward areas must be done almost entirely by helicopter in time of war and not by means of lorries. No attempt has been made to make the helicopters available, and paragraph 119 of the Memorandum on the Army Estimates speaks of their quantity production as being "some way off." When this Government say that something is "some way off," we need not expect to see it in our lifetime.
Air transport, both to carry troops and to supply them, is so important tothe Army now that I think we should try to get the same sort of merger between the personnel who have to use the aeroplanes and the Army as we should have with the Navy, and I would also make certain members of the Air Council and of the Army Council interchangeable members of that Command.
The heavy tank, like the battleship, has a future which is also highly questionable. It is far too slow and is a very easy target. [Interruption.] I am sorry if I am saying too much for the Secretary of State—
Mr. Head: The hon. Gentleman's Government ordered them all.
Mr. Wyatt: Perhaps we can hear something about that as well.
Mr. Head: The hon. Gentleman already knows.
Mr. Wyatt: There should be drastic reorganisation of the whole chain of command in the Army in order to make it far more manoeuvreable and mobile, and there should always be available enough aircraft to transport a whole division anywhere where it might be required. If that were done we should easily be able to do without a strategic reserve, and perhaps cut three months off the period of National Service, because we certainly have the right to fly a division in Germany, anywhere we like in an

2003
emergency, and that would dispense with the need for a strategic reserve. There is not the slightest sign of any such transport, except that the Government, true to their principles of free enterprise, have been giving contracts for trooping to private charter air companies, which is quite disgraceful.
Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing rose—
Mr. Wyatt: The hon. Gentleman is only taking time from his hon. Friend who will follow me. I could debate this matter with the hon. Gentleman till tomorrow morning if he wants. [Hon. Members: "Give way."] I cannot give way.
The transport required to move the equivalent of a divisionought not to be in private hands but in the hands of the Government. The Army ought to be constructed on more flexible and simpler lines with far smaller divisions supplied by helicopters and transportable by aircraft. It would then be far more efficient than it is today. In nuclear wars such smaller divisions would have a far better chance of fighting, despite the disclocation and chaos which might be going on all round. In something less than nuclear war the Army would be far more effective in such a shape in resisting any onslaught which might be launched against us. In cold war tasks, a streamlined Army would be far more efficient in jungle, hill and other difficult country.
On every count there is an unanswerable case for the complete reorganisation of the Army, but none whatever is indicated in this document, except in the very distant future; and we are not told when that will be. A part of the trouble is that the new infantry soldier's weapon, the new British rifle, is not available and will not be available for some years. We cannot reorganise our Army until our basic element of fire power has been provided, and the reason we have not got it is Government failure.
If we had had the British rifle it would have been in full production by now in ever-increasing numbers and units would now be in the position of being steadily supplied with it. An attempt was made by the Secretary of State for War the other day to blame us for that, too. I have looked up the references, and the Prime Minister very handsomely said, a
2004
year ago, in the debate on the rifle, that he had cancelled my right hon. Friend's decision to proceed with the rifle and for the British rifle had substituted the Belgian rifle; and he went on to say, "I take full responsibility for that."
We were told that we had to have the Belgian rifle because of the need to standardise with other countries. The Secretary of State told us last year that this would save us a year in production.
Mr. Head: When?
Mr. Wyatt: It is in Hansard.
Mr. Head: Quote it.
Mr. Wyatt: I do not want to go on indefinitely. I will read it out tomorrow when the Minister of Defence is speaking; I will interrupt him. I can assure the Secretary of State that if he cares to look up the report of last year's debate he will find that one point he made was that we should save a year in production—which was completely wrong, because the Belgian rifle is still nowhere near in production.
When we tried to persuade the Americans to adopt the rifle, it was re-designed in inches measurements. The Americans still refused to adopt it. Even the Canadians are not certain that they will adopt it. The new rifle, when it is ready—if ever it is ready, and one must have some doubt about that if this Government are to be in charge of it—will not even be standardised with the Belgian rifle. We have gained nothing whatever by the delay. As for the argument that at least it will be standardised with Canada, Mr. Claxton Brooke, then Minister of Defence in Canada, told my right hon. Friend that the Canadians would be quite happy to adopt the British rifle provided that they could also manufacture it in Canada. There would have been no difficulty whatever about that.
The Government's policy has delayed the reorganisation of the Army to fit its present r61e, and that is a very serious matter. We cannot have a smaller division without increased fire power if the means to increase the fire power have not been provided by the Government.
If we have a major war with nuclear weapons, then the role of the Army will primarily be one of civil defence at home. and I believe that the Home Secretary's statement this afternoon was inadequate

2005
on this subject. It is not enough to give National Service men training in Civil Defence. What we ought todo is to make use of perhaps as much as half of the Territorial Army, which would amount to about 250,000 men, and train them in their part-time training for civil defence roles, giving them tasks to perform and areas to cover. It might be that upon themwe would depend for some semblance of survival and government if utter chaos came upon the country. We have not gone far enough. I believe we should have a home defence command with a general at the head of it, who should be coordinating the whole of this field with the local authorities.
The Government, on their own showing, have failed in production. They have failed to reorganise the Forces to meet threats which they admit exist. They have failed in planning. Today we live in a completely defenceless island even if a potential enemy were to launch an attack without having the full range of nuclear weapons. In the Paris Agreements we have just committed four divisions to Germany which even in a cold war type of war would be in serious danger of being slaughtered. We are not giving our men a chance, and it is the fault of the Government. The Prime Minister spoke of a transition period; we are not passing through the transition period fast enough.
It may seem extraordinary that a Conservative Government which prides itself on taking special care of our defences, headed by the present Prime Minister, should have fallen down on defence, but these are the hard inescapable facts. The Government have spent well over £4,000 million in the last three and a half years and have got very little for it. They have spent some £700 million on the development and testing of aircraft and have practically no aircraft. It is the most startling and dismal situation in the long history of our armed Services. We are moving the Amendment in the hope of stirring the Government into energetic activity. We are moving it to try to prevent further waste of money and to preserve the safety of the country. If we succeed in those objects we shall be satisfied.
9.42 p.m.
Mr. J. R. H. Hutchison: This momentous subject has been treated in the debate which is concluding tomorrow and has been running today with the gravity and the solemnity
2006
that so important a question demands. The Government have made available a series of their most eminent Ministers. The debate was opened by the Prime Minister himself, the Home Secretary intervened on Civil Defence, tomorrow the Minister of Supply, I understand, will be dealing largely with the question of aircraft and the debate will be closed by the Minister for Defence. That is an important galaxy from the Government side, so much so that one journal this morning described it as a "prima donna debate." I make no claim to be a prima donna. I certainly am not prima and probably not donna, although nowadays there seems to be a certain amount of doubt in these matters.
As a back bencher, I wish to offer some thoughts, particularly on what the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) concluded by saying, perhaps on some other remarks which have been made, and to offer some views of my own. I am accustomed to the arguments of the hon. Member for Aston. For a number of years he has levelled them at us. I was sitting on the Government Front Bench and he was putting to us those arguments from the second bench opposite. I am glad to see that he has moved down to the Front Bench whereas I have moved up to a back bench.
The hon. Member seemed to me largely to be reading out a series of alleged shortcomings which, if not refuted, could do this country a great deal of harm. He brought forward very little in support of his argument and his statements and was reluctant—I believe out of consideration for myself—to allow my hon. Friends to intervene to question him. I hope that tomorrow we shall be able to show that a great deal of what he said was exaggerated and had little foundation in fact.
The hon. Member supports the Amendment which the Opposition have moved by stating that we have failed to produce anything worthwhile in the period in which we have been responsible for the defence programme. I should like to draw the hon. Member's attention to paragraph 53 of the Army Estimates, which sets out a very considerable Army programme, including the completion of a programme for the introduction of new wheeled vehicles—and there are a great many wheeled vehicles in the Army; the introduction of the Conqueror tank, the L.70 light anti-aircraft gun, the F.N. rifle,

2007
about which the hon. Member has been speaking, and the new machine gun. Then there are some notable innovations on the naval side—the Gannet, the mirror landing device, the angled deck and the launching catapult equipment. [An Hon. Member: "No aircraft."] Those are, it seems to me, introductions in two of the Services, at any rate, which represent very considerable forward progress.
The hon. Member went on from that to discuss and criticise the statement made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Supply on his all-weather and night defence statement. I am glad that my right hon. and learned Friend will have a chance tomorrow of dealing with those points and, indeed, of dealing with what the hon. Member spent a lot of time in criticising and examining: the whole of our aircraft production over the last few years—the Swifts, the Hunters, the Canberras, which the hon. Member described as the deterrent bomber part of the programme, and then the Valiants, also.
The hon. Member went on from there to deal with the Army and to state that the four divisions that we have in Western Germany, with or without nuclear warfare, would simply be massacred. All I can say is that that is not General Gruenther's view and not the view which he has on many occasions expressed about the progress that we have been making.
General Gruenther, who commands at S.H.A.P.E., is, of course, anxious to have an accretion of strength to those divisions and is in favour of the proposals for the German contribution of 12 further divisions. But if the hon. Member for Aston thinks that the position of these British and other allied divisions in Germany is one of such peril, surely he is thereby showing the need for atomic support of those divisions to redress something of the disparity in the balance of strength between the Russian army and ourselves, about which we know.
The hon. Member went on to say that our divisions—indeed, the whole of the Army—needed a complete overhaul and reorganisation. I point out to the hon. Member, however, that in paragraph 48 of the Defence White Paper, that is exactly what we are examining at the
2008
present time. In that paragraph, it is said that:
"Experimental organisations and a revised scale of weapons and equipment, including transport, are being worked out. These will be tried out in manoeuvres this year."
There have been contacts with our allies on the possible set-up and size of the division. The Defence White Paper also underlines something else that the hon. Member said: the need for flexibility, for quick dispersal and for quick reconcentration, and the need for moving a lot of the Army's tail by air or transferring it into an airborne supply system. Indeed, a great deal of what the hon. Member ended by saying in his speech is what we are examining at the present time.
The hon. Member ended with the question of the famous F.N. rifle. I do not want to go into that in detail—it is a long and rather tedious and complicated story—but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War will, I believe, when the Army Estimates are being dealt with, revert to that theme and be able to set right some of the misstatements which have been made by hon. Members opposite. This was the broad position. Immediately after the war the Army expressed a requirement for an automatic rifle. The next thing that happened was that at a conference of Defence Ministers of the various interested countries, which was held at Washington in 1951, it was decided to set up a working party to test various calibres.
Therefore, if anybody is to be adjudged to be a failure, I contend that it is the Government of the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. They knew that the Army wanted a new rifle at the end of the war and they passed over to us a situation where, in the summer of 1951, all that was happening was that a working party had been set up to test various calibres.
Mr. Shinwell: May I point out that when we went to Washington it was at the request of the United States and Canadian Governments, because there was some doubt about whether the British rifle should be accepted? We pressed the other Governments to accept the British rifle and, when we left Washington, there was no working party set up with our consent. We left on the firm understanding that they would again consider whether the British rifle would be

2009
accepted and we never withdrew from that position at any time.
Mr. Hutchison: As I said, I do not want to get entangled in the complications and details which will be dealt with by my right hon. Friend when the Army Estimates are debated. All I wanted to say was that there were five or six years in which this need was there, and that nothing was produced by the end of those six years. It lies ill in the mouths of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to accuse us of having done nothing when they had six years available to them.
May I now introduce into this debate, as a back bencher, a few thoughts of my own? This White Paper has not been hesitant—and it is right not to have hesitated—in showing the horror of nuclear warfare. All the emphasis is laid on deterring. That, indeed, is the role of the hydrogen bomb, but let me point out that if it plays its part in deterring, it makes the probability or the possibility of cold war all the greater since hot war will be deterred.
This debate today has tended far too much to ignore the problems of cold war and the need to make provision for it. A deterrent deters only when the full nemesis of that deterrent is known and is widely known. I wonder how much of what we have been discussing today is known to the ordinary people behind the Iron Curtain. The other day Mr. Molotov said, in Russia, that if a nuclear war broke out only the capitalist countries would be destroyed. Is that really the sort of thing that the people in Russia believe?
I believe that it is one of our tasks to make certain by every device which lies to our hands that the people of Russia and all those behind the Iron Curtain know exactly what would be the outcome of nuclear warfare. It is a theme I have argued before, that there ought to be within N.A.T.O. an international organisation of equal power and equal penetration with the Cominform and, for want of a better name, I used to call it the "Truthinform."
This organisation should by every means bring to the knowledge of the people who live behind the Iron Curtain not only the methods of living in this country and the conditions we enjoy—those cherished rights such as the right to
2010
strike, the secret ballot and all the other things we consider that a human being should be entitled to have—but. above all, it should be able to emphasise and to portray to the Russian people what will be the effect upon them of the outbreak of a nuclear war. Only a madman wants to see his country turned into a wilderness, and only a madman wants to conquer one.
Organisations exist which can help us in this direction. There is, for example, the organisation known as N.T.S., which succeeds in infiltrating leaflets behind the Iron Curtain and has had some effect upon desertions among the troops of Iron Curtain countries. It is the organisation which gave the Kremlin such a headache that there was the attempt, fortunately without success, to kill one of the leaders in the West of the organisation by the famous cigarette case revolver method. There are other organisations, and they should be used, and we should unite our psychological warfare, particularly now, in a way we have never done up to now.
There is one other point. Emphasis has been laid upon the speed at which we live, the speed at which war may be unleashed and the speed at which everything will move if that war ever comes about. We have perhaps avoided—as the Prime Minister said many years ago; I still remember it—a world war already by having been one jump ahead of our adversaries and what it is likely that they will be able to produce. We must at all costs keep ourselves that one jump ahead. Therefore, we must not, I believe, economise in research or in the speedy application of research.
It is one of the inherent difficulties of democracy to move at speed. Democracy has been described as being like the perfect wife—lovely, but not fast. The trouble is that we have got to be fast now if we are to be able to keep that jump ahead. I wonder whether we cannot find a method of streamlining our system, at any rate among the Services, and still preserve the democratic system. Democracy is slow, meticulous and careful. Industry, accountable only to itself, can make quick decisions. A dictator, accountable to nobody, can make quicker decisions still. Somehow, we have to evolve a system whereby we can keep pace with what they can do.

2011
Anybody who has had anything to do with it knows how slow and ponderous the system is just now. After complicated consideration within a Ministry, the problem probably goes to the Chiefs of Staff Committee, and thereafter perhaps to the Board of Admiralty, the Army Council or the Air Council. Then other Departments which may be affected have to be contacted. The Treasury also comes into the picture. Finally, there is the Ministry of Defence, and possibly the Cabinet. After all that, Parliament may have a go at it. In the background are the Public Accounts Committee and the Estimates Committee. Then it may be that it is a question which concerns N.A.T.O., and it will have to go before N.A.T.O.
After all this procedure we can get down to the placing of the contracts, and that is a long job because our system has always been, and rightly so, that we should take the cheapest contract consonant with quality. I believe that my right hon. Friend should set on foot an inquiry within his own Department to see whether it is possible to cut out some of this wasted time. Speed is of the essence of the matter, and I believe that this is well worth while inquiring into.
As I finish perhaps I might revert to the speech—I thought it a lamentable speech—by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). He said, first of all, that we were clinging to the old paraphernalia. He then complained that the broken back warfare had gone. He said that we had got rid of Anti-Aircraft Command and seven battalions, and yet his case was that we were clinging to the old paraphernalia. He cannot have it both ways. He cannot blame us for moving with the times and then, in the next sentence, blame us for keeping things as they used to be. He said that if the Foreign Secretary failed there was nothing that the Minister of Defence could do. I never thought the right hon. Gentleman could fall into such an abyss of despair and defeatism. Contrast that speech with the speeches made by the Prime Minister during the war. Which do hon. Gentlemen think the country would rally to, the sort of speech made by the right hon. Member for Easington or the speeches made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister? I prefer to remember the words of Henry V—
It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

LOCAL AUTHORITY HOMES (ACCOMMODATION CHARGES)
10.1 p.m.
Mr. Harold Finch: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the National Assistance (Charges for Accommodation) Regulations, 1955 (S.I., 1955, No. 109), dated 20th January, 1955, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th January, be annulled.
The Minister of Health has powers conferred on him by Section 22 of the National Assistance Act, 1948, whereby he can fix the amount chargeable by local authorities for the accommodation of persons who go into homes provided bythe local authorities. We know that county councils and county borough councils provide homes for many of the more unfortunate members of the community—those who are sick, disabled, or suffering in old age and without any friends in the world. The local authorities make provision for their maintenance and an amount is charged by the local authorities. That amount is 32s. 6d., and set against the £2 which is the maximum amount which can be obtained as a retirement pension or sickness benefit, that 32s. 6d. is too high.
These rates vary from time to time. In 1952, the charges were increased. When the rate of sickness benefit and retirement pension was 32s. 6d., the amount charged for maintenance in a home was 26s., which left the person providedwith accommodation with 6s. 6d. That represented a fifth of the insurance benefit. In 1948, the proportion was also approximately one-fifth.
Now the rate is £2 and the amount charged by local authorities is 32s. 6d., which leaves 7s. 6d. pocket money for the person who is being maintained. To make a proportion of one-fifth the 7s. 6d. should be increased to 8s. Hon. Members may ask, "What is in a 6d.?" They might say that it is a very small amount, but it would help to provide an extra ounce of cheap tobacco, help to buy stamps—many of these people write to relatives—or help them to get a haircut. What can they do with this miserable amount of 7s. 6d.? I cannot understand why the proportion should have been

2013
lowered. If it was 6s. 6d. before, it should now be 7s. Why the reduction of 6d.?
I submit that the local authority, or the Ministry, should allow an extra 6d. to these people who are in unfortunate circumstances. More than 60,000 adults are maintained and over 18,000 of them are without any means of subsistence at all. In my own constituency, in South Wales, many of these people are ex-miners who have spent a life-time in the industry and are now sick or disabled. By the measures taken by local authorities they have been provided with homes. They are men who have made a great contribution to the economic life of this country. Now, in their old age they are feeble, sick and penniless. I think it mean and niggardly to take this 6d. from them and to rob them of those little amenities which provide for their happiness. Sixpence is a great deal to these people, and I hope that, as a result of this debate, the Government will at least alter the proportion.
Many ex-miners in South Wales come under the old Workmen's Compensation Acts, and they were paid off because the colliery companies went into liquidation. The companies could pay only 6d. or a Is. in the £, and these men were paid off with £25 or £50. But they were incapacitated and had no other means of livelihood, so they were provided with accommodation. I cannot understand why the Minister should not have given the same proportion to these people as was given in 1952.
There are persons who came under the provisions of Section 62 of the old National Insurance Act. Their unemployment benefit has expired. There are others who have contributed since 1912. I hope that tonight we may have an undertaking from the Government that this amount for pocket money will be increased and a little extra money provided for these old men and women.
10.7 p.m.
Mr. Tom Brown: I beg to second the Motion.
It fell to my lot on 26th October, 1952, to second a similar Motion because at that time we believed that the 6s. 6d. conceded for personal allowances, or pocket money, was inadequate. I cannot bring myself to believe that the Ministry has
2014
given the consideration to this problem which it warrants. There would appear to be a great deal of guess work—"give them a bob, give them Is. 6d., give them half-a-crown "—instead of ascertaining what these people need.
I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman, nor his Parliamentary Secretary, for I believe that they have a great deal of sympathy for these unfortunate people. I must be careful, because I may be misunderstood, but I think that the "nigger in the woodpile" in this niggardly, parsimonious policy is the Treasury. The Treasury seem to aim at making it difficult for the poorest of the poor to enjoy the eventide of life. I beg the Minister to take back these Regulations, and if it is of any help, may I say that we do not intend to divide the House on this matter? We do, however, intend to voice our opinions very strongly as we have voiced them previously. The 6s. 6d. then given was insufficient, and the 7s. 6d. which the Government propose to give on 25th April, 1955, is insufficient. If I had my way, it would be nothing less than 10s. a week for the short time that is left to these unfortunate people to live.
For the past six hours we have been talking very glibly in this Chamber about the expenditure of £4,000 million to protect, and at the same time to destroy, life. We are asking that something should be given to those unfortunate people who have played their part in life, who are heavily handicapped and many of whom are bedridden. Surely, this nation has not become so poor that it cannot afford a little money with which to provide additional amenities for these people.
I recall reading a statement made by a well-known Prime Minister of this country in which he said that the nation only finds its soul when it cares for the aged poor, and the unfortunate and the heavily handicapped. I know that the hon. Lady has not lost her soul, but I think that her Department has when, in the year 1955, it proposes Regulations under which the 6s. 6d. is only increased to 7s. 6d. Surely, we can do a little better than that.
A few days ago I picked up a book which was published only last year. Perhaps the hon. Lady has read it. It is written by Dr. Trevor Howell and is entitled "Our Advancing Years." Dr.

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Howell has spent many years dealing with old people living in institutions of various kinds in this country. In the concluding paragraph of the preface to the book we find these words; I quote:
"My whole viewpoint is that of a physician whose daily professional work lies mainly among the aged and the chronic sick. I am anxious to help those who are growing old themselves, those with elderly relatives and some with no relatives at all, and those who have to care for the aged.…After considerable thought, I have ventured to mention by name some of my colleagues whose pioneer work in this branch of medicine deserves recognition. I pray pardon for disturbing their modesty, but I feel strongly that until their works are better known and more widely applied, the old people"—
and this is the salient point in the preface—
"of this country will be denied the care, the comfort and the happiness which they richly deserve."
Those words are expressed by a man who for many years has devoted the whole of his energy, talents and working life in an endeavour to bring about some happiness and comfort to the aged and the chronic sick. He goes on to say in the preface:
"Until the work and the conditions of these people are more widely known, they will not get what they richly deserve."
I do not wish it to be thought that I am criticising the older institutions or the hospitals that have to care for these unfortunate people. There has been a remarkable change over the last 30 years in the amount of care and attention given to old folks, and I hope that the position will go on improving year after year. The Regulations raise what we have come to regard as pocket money from 6s. 6d. to 7s. 6d. Bless me, 7s. 6d. is the price of a meal paid by some of us in this House, yet we are asking these unfortunate, heavily handicapped people to be satisfied with 7s. 6d. a week. That amount falls far short of their requirements.
It is very important to remember that the personal allowance was first fixed by Statutory Instrument No. 1385 in 1948, when the amount of 5s. was granted. That became effective upon 5th July of the same year. The amount was increased by Statutory Instrument No. 1100, in 1952, to 6s. 6d. as from 16th June of that year, and it is now proposed to increase it by another 1s., to 7s. 6d. Why was it raised
2016
by 1s. 6d. in 1952 when it is now proposed to raise it by only 1s., when there is conclusive evidence that the cost of the little amenities purchased by these people has gone up considerably? There is no justification for increasing the allowance by only 1s. in 1955 when it was increased by 1s. 6d. in 1952. Over a period of seven years the increase has amounted to only 2s. 6d.
Surely the Parliamentary Secretary cannot justify that meagre increase. I appeal to the hon. Lady to have another look at the Regulations, and also to consider the increase in the number of people involved. In 1949 there were 47,931 people receiving institutional and accommodational treatment. In 1950, the figure was 51,122; in 1951 it was 54,354; in 1952 it was 58,119;in 1953 it was 62,131, and the last year it was 65,933. Of that last figure, according to the report issued by the Ministry, 4,445 were children. Therefore, if we deduct the number of children receiving institutional accommodation treatment from the 65,000, there are over 60,000 people in this country in institutions.
In passing, may I say how glad one is to see the decrease in the number of children received into the institutions? That is a very hopeful sign. The number has fallen—I know that this is not relevant to the question under discussion—from 1,594 in 1949 to 244 in 1954. I think that the hon. Lady will agree that is a very hopeful sign. I hope that the decrease may continue because it will reduce the number called upon to receive accommodational treatment.
One could go on for a very long time giving illustrations born from experience in dealing with these old people and chronic sick people. I have in my division a large general hospital. I feel that it is my moral duty to visit that hospital occasionally. What do I find there? I find handicapped people who have given of their service to industry, particularly in the mining, engineering, and steel industries. Many of them have been crippled, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) said, have been denied the compensation to which they were entitled because in certain circumstances they were prohibited from receiving it, and are now ending their lives in these institutions.

2017
It may surprise the House to hear the number of years which many of these people have spent in institutions. Case No. 1, age 65, an inmate for 16 years; Case No. 2, age 74, bedridden for 25 years; Case No. 3, age 83, bedridden for 12 years; Case No. 4, age 72, bedridden for 11 years; Case No. 5, age 67, bedridden for 34 years; Case No. 6, age 72, bedridden for 19 years; Case No. 7, age 83—I visited this inmate on Christmas Day—bedridden for 10 years. Many of these inmates have neither relatives nor friends. They are handicapped in life and have been for all these years. They have had to suffer the heavy penalty of misfortune which has befallen them. They served their day and generation when they were physically capable of doing so. Now they are unfortunately, as I have said, travelling towards the western shore of life.
If any hon. Member of this House, from whatever political party, visited these hospitals and saw these people suffering, as they do suffer, they could not fail to be touched. It would touch a heart of stone. Surely this House which is known to be generous in its approach to many aspects of life ought to go a little further and grant to these unfortunate victims of society more than 7s. 6d. with which to buy the amenities to bring a degree of happiness into the eventide of their lives.
Many of them are miners. Many of us who are ex-miners are often misunderstood and sometimes criticised for putting forward in this House the case of the miners as frequently as we do. We are said to be always pleading for some little assistance over and above the normal assistance. I make no apology for doing so, for always pleading in this House the case of the unfortunate people of this land of ours.
We are not asking for something that cannot be afforded. We are only spending approximately £11 million to £12 million on this service. This afternoon we have been talking about spending £4,000 million on weapons for the destruction of human life. Surely we can afford to spend a few thousand pounds in giving a degree of happiness and contentment to the lives of people who have suffered from misfortunes which have overtaken them along the pathway of life.
10.26 p.m.
Mr. William Keenan: Something has been said about incapacitated persons. I want to speak about old people who are not necessarily incapacitated but who have grown old, have ceased to be family people, and have drifted into institutions.
Efforts are made in this generation to take older people from the larger institutions and to put them into places accommodating 20 or 30. This gives them a better life. In my division, a little institution survives. It was formerly known as "Kirkdale Homes" and is now called "Westminster House." In it are a number of men and women. With the exception of some encephalitis cases and a few epileptics, they are elderly people.
Between 80 per cent. and 90 per cent. are able to go out each day when the weather is all right; but they have nothing but the pension they get. The National Insurance pension has gone up by 7s. 6d. It first went up by 2s. 6d. Let me support my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) by recalling that from 1948 to 1952 the amount of the pension increase was 6s. 6d., of which 2s. 6d. went to these old people as pocket money. Now it has increased up to 7s. 6d.
We all realise that the 6s. 6d. was inadequate. The extra shilling does not mean very much, because there has been an increase in the cost of living. These old folk do not want much, with the exception of cigarettes, but they cannot afford even 40 Woodbines. We are dealing very largely with elderly people—there are some in my constituency—who are in the category described by my hon. Friends, in hospitals which they will never leave because they are senile. They will get only the extra Is.
My plea is on behalf of those I know and see, as well as many thousands more. This amount is neither fair nor justifiable. Surely they merit an advance of more than Is.? I hope that the plea will be noted. Surely we do not want old folks to be dependent on begging help from others, as many have to do? Surely we could have made the amount nearer 10s., if not 10s.? I think that what has been decided is a miserable amount, and I protest at it.

2019
Many of those in the institution in my constituency were probably drawn from different parts of Liverpool. We should provide them with a little amenity and allow them to purchase little things which they cannot get with 7s. 6d., but which they could purchase with a shilling or two more. It would make a great difference.
10.32 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith): I know that the whole House recognises the sincerity of the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch), who moved this Prayer, the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown), who seconded, and the hon. Member for Kirkdale (Mr. Keenan), who has supported it, but I must say that, listening to some of the comments which have been made, one would think that we were cutting the allowance instead of increasing it.
We are accused of being niggardly and parsimonious. When we analyse the amount of standard benefit that has been allowed in the various changes in benefit since 1948 we find that under the previous Administration, in 1948, 19 per cent. of the standard benefit was allowed as pocket money, and in 1952, when the allowance was 6s. 6d., 20 per cent. was allowed as pocket money. On this basis, it is 18.75 per cent., which is a quarter of 1 per cent. less than that provided by the previous Administration.
Hon. Members have referred to the rise in the cost of living from 1948 until now. The rise has been substantially under 50 per cent. and the rise in this allowance is in fact 50 per cent. on the 5s. rate of 1948. Hon. Members mentioned particularly—I think it apposite to draw the comparison—the disabled miner. The industrial injury rate of the disabled miner has risen from 45s. to 67s. 6d.—again a 50 per cent. increase.
Mr. Finch: I was not referring to those receiving that benefit, but to those who are not getting the industrial injury benefit at all.
Miss Hornsby-Smith: I agree.
The point I made was about those who receive injury benefit, and I was saying that in many instances the amount has gone up by 50 per cent. In the particular case before us the amount of the increase is
2020
50 per cent. above what the figure was in 1948. It was not based on guesswork. We believe that, taking into account the index rise in the cost of living and the provision made by local authorities, this represents a settlement which is equitable to local authorities and residents.
Very little mention has been made of what is provided in these homes, and it is unrealistic to refer to these allowances without taking into full account what provision is made in part III accommodation by the local authorities for people living in these homes. The authorities, who will now receive 32s. 6d. of the 40s., meet all the reasonable requirements of their residents so far as they include board, lodging, clothing, extra comforts—such as the supply of magazines, papers, games, wireless, and very frequently, television. Also, in substantially more than half the homes, there is an allowance of tobacco for men and sweets for women.
For this there is a payment of 32s. 6d. from the standard benefit to the local authority from the resources of the resident as a minimum charge towards his or her keep and the supply of these very comprehensive services. That 32s. 6d. is about one-third of the average cost of maintaining one of these residents in a part III home.
The original allowance of 5s. fixed by the former Government, in 1948, was thought to be a fair rate, and the subsequent absence of complaints about that rate confirmed their view, and decided them to hold to it. Complaints about the current grant of 6s. 6d. are conspicuous by their complete absence, and having regard to all that local authorities do and provide for residents in part III accommodation, the new rate of weekly pocket money of 7s. 6d. prescribed by the Regulations is, in all the circumstances, we think, a fair proportion of the total standard rate.
If my right hon. Friend had any real evidence from the many thousands of people who are in these homes that grave or severe hardship was being caused, I know perfectly well that he would be the first to start the most intensive inquiries to see if it was a matter which required further and greater consideration. My right hon. Friend and I visit many of these homes in the course of our duties, and our postbag is not exactly small ——
Mr. Finch: But will the hon. Lady explain why there is a different proportion on this occasion, as far as pocket money is concerned, from what there was in 1952, when the rate was 32s. 6d.? It was then one-fifth, now it is less. Why is there a difference?
Miss Hornsby-Smith:The fifth is nothing sacrosanct. The hon. Gentleman is sticking firmly to the more generous proportion which we gave in 1952 and ignoring the lesser proportion which his Government felt was good enough for six years.
Mr. Finch: It was one-fifth.
Miss Hornsby-Smith: It was not one-fifth, it was 19 per cent. Five shillings is one-fifth of 25s. It is 19 per cent. of 26s. The difference between that percentage and ours is one-quarter of 1 per cent., and the percentage as it then applied was not a sacrosanct one. But it is not unreasonable, in taking into account a 50 per cent. rise in many of the benefits, that the allowances equally should have risen 50 per cent. on the rate which applied in 1948.
It is also fair to point out that between 26,000 and 27,000 of the 69,000 persons living in part III accommodation are either non-pensioners drawing National Assistance grants or non-contributory pensioners drawing not more than 26s. a week in pension which is supplemented by National Assistance grants. In respect of these people the increase in minimum charges and pocket money will fall directly on the Exchequer through the National Assistance Board, and in itself will cost an additional £500,000 a year, of which £70,000 represents an increase in pocket money.
The hon. Member for Ince mentioned long-stay patients in hospitals. The amount of pocket money which, under the National Assistance Act, we are providing under these Regulations is the same amount as that provided for long-stay patients in hospitals under benefits to which they are entitled under the National Insurance Act, and it is necessary that there should be the same allowance for these patients from the standard rate of benefit as for those accommodated in local authority homes. In that respect the allowance provided under these Regulations is in line with that
2022
provided under the National Insurance Scheme.
My right hon. Friend feels that there is no evidence which has come to us from cases in these homes that this rate of allowance causes grave hardship. Provision is wide in local authority homes, for which the local authorities themselves deserve all possible credit, and we believe that the Is. increase will bring a little extra margin to those who hitherto have only had the 6s. 6d. allowance. Therefore, we do not feel that the case justifies extending it beyond the limits laid down in these Regulations.
Question put and negatived.

2nd ROYAL INNISKILLING FUSILIERS (DISBANDMENT)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Kaberry.]
10.41 p.m.
Mr. Alan McKibbin: The news that the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers was one of the units which the War Office has decided to disband in the course of the next few years was received with distress in Northern Ireland. While I realise the need for economy and for cutting down the Army as much as possible with due regard to our commitments, I ask to have the decision to disband this battalion rescinded for several reasons.
The first is because conditions in Northern Ireland are different, as far as the Army is concerned, from those in England, Scotland and Wales, where there is National Service. In Northern Ireland, service is voluntary. This is no fault of ours, because the Ulster Government asked for National Service but the Government at Westminster thought otherwise.
Although we have not got National Service I would not like it to be thought that Ulster is not playing her full part in defence and would not be prepared to fight alongside Great Britain if another war broke out. Because, in addition to finding recruits for three Regular battalions—the Royal Irish Fusiliers, the Royal Irish Rifles and the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers—we have an excel-

2023
lent Territorial Army consisting of the North Irish Horse Armoured Car Regiment, the Antrim Coast Artillery Regiment, a field artillery regiment, an infantry group of the three infantry regiments, and also a contingent Ack-Ack artillery which, as my hon. Friend knows, is at present in the course of reconstruction.
In addition, we have got an Army Cadet Force with units all over Ulster, the objects of which are to train boys between the ages of 14 and 18 years of age to be good citizens and good soldiers if they join the Regular Army or the Territorial Army when their course is finished. I am glad to know that many of them do this. I will not mention the Navy or the Air Force at the moment because we are dealing with the Army.
My second reason is that of expenditure. I am asking that a small proportion of the money which would be spent on conscription in Northern Ireland if there were National Service should be used to maintain this 2nd Battalion, and thus encourage voluntary recruiting. In this connection, I have read the statement from the Earl of Norbury, who served in the Inniskillings. He said that at one period after the last war this regiment had the highest recruiting figures of any unit of the Army. The 1st Battalion is in Kenya, and the 2nd Battalion is in Cyprus, and the fact that both battalions are overseas is not conducive to recruiting.
From previous experience, it seems that if the 2nd battalion had a few years of service at home it could be able to recruit up to its standard. Furthermore, there is an unemployment problem in Northern Ireland, and I understand that there are several Regular battalions due to come back to the United Kingdom on home service. If it could be found possible for a number of these to be stationed in Northern Ireland their presence would, indirectly at least, give a considerable amount of employment.
My third reason is that recruits for these two battalions would join for the sake of adventureand for a love of the Army, and they would be much more likely to sign on for more than three years of service. As stated in the White Paper, Cmd. 9395, it is essential that enough men should be persuaded to do this to
2024
provide the future N.C.O.s and tradesmen for the Army.
My fourth reason is that, as the senior Northern Ireland regiment, the Inniskillings merit special consideration for the retention of this 2nd battalion. It has had associations with Ulster since 1688, and it won its first battle honour in 1690—a date of particular interest to all Irishmen.
There are branches of the Inniskilling Old Comrades'Association in London, Belfast, Dublin and Omagh, and all these branches are prospective recruiting centres; and, in this connection, I received a letter this afternoon from Dublin, which I should like to read at least in part. It is from the Dublin branch of the Association, and is headed:
"Disbandment of 2nd Battalion "
and it reads:
"We feel strongly about the above. Ireland may be divided on many things, but in sport and war, no. As Irishmen we may have a fight or a grouse against England, but that is our business; we will not allow anyone else to do so, and if another war comes, we are in it beside you as we proved in the last two. But if you want us, then leave us something to hang on to. We are justly proud of our 2nd Battalion, its traditions and battle honours, and to our kith and kin it is the only Battalion left to join up with."
At the annual conference of the Northern Ireland area of the British Legion, on 2nd February, there were delegates in Belfast from 110 men's branches and there were delegates from Dublin. Sir Norman Stronge, President of the Inniskilling Association, and Speaker of the Northern Ireland House of Commons, proposed a resolution, which was passed unanimously, asking the War Office to rescind its decision to disband this 2nd battalion. Many other public bodies have passed similar resolutions, including the Enniskillen Borough Council, and its retention is most strongly supported by the Northern Ireland Government, and by all the Ulster Unionist Members of this House.
I have seen a letter from the Earl of Bathurst, intimating that he proposes to raise the matter in another place, and I hope that the War Office will accede to all these requests. The War Office should give favourable consideration to the retention of this fine battalion, the record of which has added lustre to the pages of British military history. In the "Belfast

2025
Telegraph" it has been stated that our efforts are in the nature of a rearguard action, but I would like to point this out to my hon. Friend, that the motto of the Inniskillings is, "Nee Aspera Terrent." which means, "By Difficulties Undaunted."
10.50 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Fitzroy Maclean): It might be useful if I were to recall the circumstances in which it was decided, in 1952, to raise eight new second battalions. In 1950, hostilities had begun in Korea, and it had become a matter of urgency to increase the Regular Army without delay. National Service was lengthened from eighteen months to two years, Regular Army reservists were recalled, and Regulars were retained with the Colours. In the winter of 1951–52 China entered the Korean War, and additional problems faced us in Persia and Egypt.
Other special measures were accordingly taken; such, for example, as the reduction in the age of call-up to eighteen years. At the same time, strenuous efforts were made to comb the Army's administrative tail, with the result that we were able to make 10,000 additional men available for teeth arms.
Those were the circumstances in which it was possible to raise the eight new second battalions. Without them it would have been impossible to meet our overseas commitments. At that time we had almost no reserves in this country. Today the situation for the Army is very much easier for a number of reasons. Redeployment of our forces in the Middle East, the reduction of our forces in Korea, the withdrawal of the garrison from Trieste, all mean that we can reduce the active army to the minimum which is required to enable us to fulfil our commitments in Europe and to meet our considerably reduced commitments elsewhere; and, finally, to provide a strategic reserve.
In those changed circumstances, and especially since the rundown in manpower which has resulted from the abandonment of the special measures to which I have referred, it has been decided that we would not be justified in retaining any of the eight second battalions which it was decided to raise in 1952.
Let me now try to deal with some of the specific points raised by my hon.
2026
Friend. I would say, first, that we have the greatest sympathy for his point of view, and for the point of view of all those who are reluctant to see the 2nd Inniskillings disbanded. My hon. Friend suggests, if I understand him aright, that as service in Northern Ireland is voluntary, namely, there is no National Service, the money not expended on National Service could be used towards the cost of maintaining this 2nd battalion; but as I have already indicated, the decision to disband these eight battalions was taken not on financial grounds but on operational and manpower grounds.
In any case, even if that were not so, it would not be right where economies have been effected to sub-divide the funds saved for the exclusive use of any one part of the United Kingdom. Where a saving results from economies effected in one part of the country, the benefit should be spread over the whole country.
Secondly, my hon. Friend suggested that, as all the recruits to the 2nd Inniskillings would be Regulars, that was another reason for retaining this battalion, because—and here he is quite right—we need all the Regulars we can get. But the trouble here is that the battalion in question is not composed entirely of Regulars. About half of it is composed of National Service men. Therefore, if it were to be kept as an exclusively Regular battalion we should not be able to maintain it even at half strength for operational purposes. In other words, it would have to be a home service unit which could not play its part overseas, and that, I am sure, would not be welcome to the battalion, nor, indeed, would it justify the expenditure of the public funds involved.
Thirdly, my hon. Friend mentioned the long historical association which the regiment has had with Ulster. He may rest assured that that glorious tradition is fully appreciated, and that the regiment has gallantly upheld that tradition. But, even so, it isnot possible for us to make an exception in favour of any one battalion out of the eight. It must be remembered that the other seven battalions involved also have long and glorious traditions.
I would make one point, though this may seem but cold comfort, and that is

2027
that the disbandment in question will enable us to increase the Regular cadres of the three other infantry battalions which are also closely associated with Northern Ireland—the 1st Battalion the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, the 1st Battalion Royal Ulster Rifles and the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers—so that they will benefit from the disappearance of the 2nd Inniskillings.
Finally, I wish to say once more how sorry we are to have to accept the decision to disband this fine battalion.
2028
The rapidity with which it reached its present high state of operational efficiency, its subsequent service in the Canal Zone and its service at the present time in Cyprus reflect the greatest credit on all concerned. I very much hope that the officers and men of this battalion, who served so well with it, will in future give no less valuable service with other infantry battalions from Ulster.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Eleven o'clock

NATIONAL FINANCE
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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
  UNIVERSITY OF HULL BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

COMMUNICATIONS WITH AIRPORTS
2.35 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Thurso, who much regrets that he is unable to be in his place to-day, I beg to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what specific plans are included in the Government's schemes for road construction and railway re-equipment for improving the communications of Heathrow and other principal airports in the United Kingdom; and whether the use of the Monorail is under consideration for this purpose.]
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have had under constant review the possibility of improving the communications between city centres and major airports throughout the United Kingdom, and of course to London Airport. Many different proposals have been considered, including the possibility of using Monorail. Her Majesty's Government would be glad to entertain any such proposals of a practical character. It is, however, perhaps fair to say that we have no reason to believe that a Monorail would be competitive with orthodox transport systems. Moreover, elevated railways, where they are in use, as in the United States, are now being rapidly abandoned.
The proposals for the improvement of roads and the programme for re-equipment of the railways recently announced
590
have not yet reached the stage when their full effect on airports can be specified. I can, however, say that the rail services to Gatwick will be greatly improved when the airport comes into operation. Work on the extension of Cromwell Road will commence in a few weeks; this will in general provide a 30 feet dual carriageway and a flyover at the junction with the Great West Road at Brentford, and should make the journey from London Airport to Central London very much easier.
LORD REA: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for that clear and helpful answer, may I ask whether he can give some assurance that there will be co-ordination of this type of financial assistance between rail, sea and air transport? I have in mind, particularly, the proposed payment of some £12 million to the packet ports as a basic sum. Can he say that air and rail will also be viewed in a similarly favourable light?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord remembers that my right honourable friend is Minister of Civil Aviation as well as Minister of Transport, and I am certain that he has the interests of civil aviation clearly in mind. It is difficult in question and answer to give a precise comparison with what the noble Lord said, but in general the railway scheme, which I believe includes the packet ports, is by way of being an investment—that is to say, it authorises capital investment—whereas road expenditure is in the form of a grant. However, I will see that the point is brought to the attention of my right honourable friend.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, does not the answer of the noble Earl really mean that it will be a period of years—his guess is probably a good deal better than mine, but at least three, four or five years—before the improvements in communications between Heathrow and the Central London area can come into being? It is impossible to make a new road in that time. Furthermore, is it not a fact that, to a certain extent, the proposals of the Minister have been stymied by the amenity consideration? Is the noble Earl not also aware that there was a monorail system operating between Berlin and Hamburg before the war which went extremely well? Does the Answer of the

591
noble Earl really turn down all hope on this matter, or is it still being carefully considered, as I hope it will be.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: All these proposals necessarily have, to some extent, an amenity aspect, and I do not think anyone in the House would like that to be entirely disregarded. If the noble Earl knows any way in which, in less than a year or two, the transport facilities between Central London and Heathrow can be improved, I am sure he will let us know; and if he thinks there is a practical and proved way of operating Monorail which would help on an economic basis, we should also be glad, as I said in my original Answer, to entertain a proposal of that character. Unfortunately, at present we do not know of any.
EARL HOWE: Is it not true to say, also, that if the traffic goes on expanding at the present rate, the position in regard to Heathrow will become impossible in a few years' time? Can this be treated as a matter of real urgency? At the present, the air traveller can spend more time in a car than he spends in the air, and that situation is likely to continue for some time.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The Government are taking action in the way that I have suggested. If the noble Earl knows of better ways of doing it, then we shall be only too glad to entertain the proposals.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I suggest that there is a better way of doing it, and that is by creating in the centre of London and other large cities helicopter stations to serve the airports? That method, incidentally, would not involve any of these expensive projects which have been suggested. What are Her Majesty's Government doing in this Year of Grace to foster the creation of air-stops in the centres of cities?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I think that is going rather wide from where we started, although I agree it is an important matter.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I asked the question because I thought that it arose out of the original reply of the noble Earl, in which he mentioned helicopters.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I did not, in fact, mention helicopters.

POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANK WITHDRAWALS
2.40 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is now possible to increase the amount which can be taken out of the Post Office Savings Bank on demand.]
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, the present limit of £3 for withdrawals on demand was fixed in 1929. The value of money is much less now than it was then and I think that a higher limit would be much more convenient. I propose, therefore, to increase it to £10 and am laying the necessary draft regulations before Parliament today. But this increase will give greater scope for fraud and so, for amounts exceeding £3, I propose to revive the pre-war practice of impounding the book for central examination after each withdrawal. The present practice of impounding the book when two pages are full will continue to apply for amounts up to £3. I hope to start these arrangements in May.
I should also like to mention two minor changes in Savings Bank facilities. First, the same draft regulations provide for an increase in the limit for withdrawals made by telegram both ways from £10 to £25. Second, because of increased costs since the present charge was fixed before the war, we shall have to charge 8d. instead of 4d. per transaction from 1st July for our periodic payments service. This increase will apply only to new contracts.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, in thanking the Minister for his reply, may I say that I am sure many people in this country will be grateful for this new concession.

FISHERIES BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
NORTHERN IRELAND BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]
2.44 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE in the Chair]
Clause 16 [Operation of driving disqualifications]:
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT): I am sure the Committee will be delighted to hear that on this the sixth day of our marathon Committee stage we start off with a drafting Amendment that is so uncontroversial that I defy even myself to make a speech upon it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 17, leave out ("or the Act of 1934").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: This Amendment, too, is little more than a drafting Amendment. The noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice, suggested that words similar to those proposed in this Amendment should be substituted for the words, "he was not disqualified" in line 21. To cover all the types of case, however, it is necessary to have both. For example, if the court convict, but for special reasons do not disqualify, and the police appeal against the decision, there will be a period during which the convicted person is not disqualified. Alternatively, if the court do disqualify and a convicted person appeals, there will be a period during which the disqualification is suspended. It is to meet this case that the Amendment is set down. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 21, after ("which") insert ("the disqualification was suspended or").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, after sub-section (1) to insert:
"(2) The following subsection shall be substituted for subsection (2) of section six of the Act of 1930:—
'(2) A person who by virtue of an order of a court or of a conviction under this part of this Act is disqualified for holding or obtaining a licence may appeal against such disqualification in the same manner as against a conviction, and pending the appeal the operation of the sentence of disqualification shall be suspended.'"
The noble Lord said: This clause, as drafted, quite properly provides that, where a disqualification is suspended pending an appeal, if the conviction is confirmed on appeal and the sentence of disqualification stands the accused shall serve the full period of his disqualification and will not have it reduced by the period by which it was suspended pending the hearing of the appeal. The Amendment proposed is intended to clarify the law. I think there have been doubts as to the powers of the court to suspend a sentence of disqualification, pending an appeal, where such disqualification operated automatically upon a conviction by virtue of the provisions of the Road Traffic Acts. The Amendment provides that the lodging of an appeal shall automatically suspend the operation of sentence of driving disqualification until the appeal is abandoned or the appeal is heard. In the absence of such a provision, I would say that a grave injustice may be done. A court may impose a sentence of disqualification, and the unfortunate accused may have served most of the suspension before the appeal court hears the appeal and quashes the sentence of disqualification. In the case of a fine, the matter can usually be rectified by repayment of the fine, but disqualification may have the most serious consequences on an accused. For instance, if he is a commercial traveller, it may entirely prevent him from carrying on his business if he is unable to obtain someone to drive him, which in many cases would be most expensive and difficult for him to do. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 22 at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Teynham.)
LORD MANCROFT: The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, is quite right—this is a rather complicated and difficult little point. It arises out of the working of the

595
1934 Act, with particular reference to the "special reasons" defence. It has not, I think, worked out quite in the way in which it was expected at the time. It is the regular practice, at least where conviction would lead to automatic disqualification, for a defendant to try to induce the court to find "special reasons" for not disqualifying; and the courts, as I think your Lordships know, have shown a considerable readiness to find such reasons. So much so, that it was necessary for the High Court some years ago to lay down that "special reasons" must be special to the offence and not to the offender.
I feel there is some substance in the argument which the noble Lord has put forward, and I think I can meet him in some degree. His Amendment is intended to provide an appeal against automatic disqualification on conviction without there being an appeal against the conviction itself. Where disqualification automatically follows conviction, what the court are, in effect, saying is that in their judgment there are no "special reasons"—to which I have just referred—for not disqualifying. The noble Lord clearly holds that it should be open to the motorist to challenge the court's view on this point, and I think there is some substance in that contention. I would, however, ask the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment, for the reason that I will now give, and to accept my assurance that I will try to meet him on that important point.
The reason why I cannot meet him the whole way is this: the Amendment would also have the effect, even in cases where the disqualification was imposed by order of the court, of automatically suspending the disqualification pending the appeal. This would remove all discretion from the courts on that point. At present, I may remind your Lordships, it is within the court's discretion to suspend the operation of the disqualification order pending the appeal. I feel strongly that the suspension of disqualification should be entirely at the court's discretion. On that point, I hope that I carry the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, with me. I think that if we can get together I can meet him on the real point of substance in his Amendment and produce something which will cover what might be a real hardship.
LORD TEYNHAM: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his assurances and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Additional provisions as to production and surrender of driving licences, etc.
(4) Subsection (5) of section four and subsection (1) of section forty of the Act of 1930 (under which a person driving a motor vehicle on a road may be required by a police constable to produce his licence for examination and to give his name and address and the name and address of the owner of the vehicle and to produce his certificate of insurance or similar document) shall have effect as if the references therein to a person driving a motor vehicle included references to—
(b) any person whom a police constable has reasonable cause to believe to have committed an offence in relation to the use of a motor vehicle on a road; and
2.51 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, in the absence of Lord Somers and Lord Derwent, I beg leave to move this Amendment. It is felt that paragraph (b) of subsection (4) of Clause 17 is far too wide and gives far too wide powers to the police. It would enable the police to enter your house or office and demand to see your driving licence, if they think you may have committed any offence; it may merely be some minor offence, such as a parking offence or technical obstruction, or having a driving licence or car licence a few days out of date. While paragraph (a) and (c) seem quite reasonable, I feel that paragraph (b) gives far too wide powers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 20, leave out paragraph (b).—(Lord Gifford.)
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot agree with my noble friend Lord Gifford that this power for which the police are now asking will occasion any hardship at all or goes further than is necessary. May I remind your Lordships how the law now stands and why this slight extension is needed? Clause 17 (4) extends the powers given to the police by Sections 4 (5) and 40 (1) of the 1930 Act, under which a person driving a motor vehicle on a road may be required by a police constable to produce his licence for examination, to give his name and address

597
and the name and address of the owner of the vehicle, and to produce his certificate of insurance or similar document. Under the present clause, these powers are confined to persons driving motor vehicles on the roads. Clause 17 (4), which we are now discussing, extends them to cover, among others
"any person whom a police constable has reasonable cause to believe to have committed an offence in relation to the use of a motor vehicle on a road. …"
As long ago as 1937 the police found that their powers under the 1930 Act were insufficient. They asked for them to be extended in the sense which is now proposed in this clause. It was said then, and it has been frequently argued since—and I think with force—that it is a very great handicap to the police not to be able to demand production of the licence and name and address of a person believed to have committed an offence once his motor vehicle has left the road.
Lord Gifford's Amendment seeks to delete this provision in Clause 17, and I think that it would place an unreasonable handicap on the police in their attempt to seek out offenders in the way we are now discussing. The noble Lord talked about persons at home. That is an extreme case. But the case I have in mind, where the inability of the police to ask for the licence may be a real handicap, is in the case of a car, say, in the car park of a public-house. It seems a little illogical that the police can demand to see one's licence on the road but not when one has taken the car into the car park of a public-house. This is not an extreme demand at all, and I think it is nothing which anybody with a clear conscience would resent in any way. The police have always exercised extreme tact and discretion in the use of the existing power, and they can be relied upon not to make excessive use of the very small extension proposed. It is one which will help the police in the execution of their duty and the prevention of road accidents and the promotion of safety. I ask your Lordships to consider that this is not an unreasonable provision, and to allow it to remain in the Bill.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I ask the noble Lord a question, for purposes of elucidation? The noble Lord will remember, I am sure, the very friendly passage of arms we had yesterday afternoon on the powers of the car
598
park attendant upon one of the designated car parks to enforce the provisions of this Bill when it becomes an Act. The noble Lord gave me an assurance on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that these car park attendants were not going to usurp the functions of the police at all, and so when it is necessary, in a distant town other than the place where the offence was committed on the car park, to establish who was either the owner of the car or the driver of the car on the car park the police will have to make an inquiry—the police, not the car park attendant in civilian clothes. The police will come to the private individual's house. Would the noble Lord tell me; does he interpret an offence on a designated car park, which will be a car park on a highway, as an offence in relation to the use of a motor vehicle on a road?
LORD MANCROFT: I shall have to look at that problem carefully. I do not want to give the noble Lord an explanation that amounts to bad law. I will certainly look at it and take advice and give the answer. At the moment, however, I do not quite see the relationship between the two. We are talking here about offences with a vehicle on a road; that is, driving offences, speeding or some such offence. That is what we are primarily concerned with and I do not see the relationship between that and a technical offence in a car park; but I do not want to be categorical.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Perhaps the noble Lord will take his research a little further. Under this Bill we shall create a whole new lot of offences, because the new designated car parks will be on roads, physically. If he would look at the law in relation to that, I should be grateful.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask two questions of the noble Lord? Does the procedure under Clause 17 in any way vary or extend the existing law with regard to the entry of police constables on to private premises? Secondly, may I take it that Clause 17 does not interfere in any way with the existing procedure whereby the owner of a motor car can within five days take his licence and his insurance certificate to a designated police station?
LORD MANCROFT: I think I can answer the noble Lord straight away. The answer to both his questions is "No."
EARL HOWE: Thank you.
LORD GIFFORD: In view of the explanation of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, I do not wish to press this Amendment. But I gather from what he has said that he does not visualise this provision being brought into play for technical parking or obstruction offences, but rather for driving offences on the road. If he would look into the matter a little more closely to see how it concerns the parking offences, I think it would relieve the minds of the public.
LORD MANCROFT: I will certainly do that.
LORD GIFFORD: Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.
3.0 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: This is purely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 25, leave out ("that person") and insert ("the holder").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 18 and 19 agreed to.
Clause 20:
Circumstances affecting classification of vehicles under last foregoing section
(2) A public service vehicle carrying passengers at separate fares shall be treated as a contract carriage, and not as a stage carriage or an express carriage, when used in circumstances in which the conditions set out in either Part III or Part IV of the Second Schedule to this Act are fulfilled.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (2), after "used" to insert:
"elsewhere than in the City of Westminster and the City of London and"
The noble Earl said: I hope the Committee will bear with me while I explain what is a rather more complicated Amendment that it might seem to be. Under the provisions of the Bill, it is provided that a public service vehicle carrying passengers at separate fares in circumstances in which the conditions set out in Parts III and IV of the Second
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Schedule to the Bill are fulfilled, shall be treated as a contract carriage, which means that the operator of the vehicle will not be required to apply to the licensing authority for a permit in respect of the journey. Part III of the Second Schedule refers to parties of overseas visitors, and the only condition which must be fulfilled here to enable advantage to be taken of the Bill is that each of the passengers must have been outside Great Britain at the time of concluding his arrangements to make the journey. Part IV of the Second Schedule relates to the operation of vehicles for special occasions, the most important conditions to be fulfilled being that the arrangements for the bringing together of the passengers shall not have been made by the vehicle operator and that the journey must not have been advertised.
Under the existing law, the Road Traffic Act, 1930, vehicle operators catering for both overseas visitors and for special occasions must apply to the licensing authority for permission to operate a vehicle on such a journey. The effect of the Bill, by relieving the operators of vehicles from this necessity, will be that, so long as the conditions of either Part III (to which I have just referred) or Part IV of the Second Schedule are fulfilled, passenger vehicles may be operated without restriction of any sort. The purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that the existing system, whereby application must be made to the licensing authority for the metropolitan area for any journey on which passengers are carried at separate fares, shall continue to operate within the congested area of Central London.
For the sake of convenience, the Amendment defines this area as the cities of Westminster and London, but it should be emphasised that the area actually concerned is that bounded on the south by the Embankment, on the west by Park Lane and on the north by Oxford Street, in addition to the City of London itself. If the principle of the Amendment were accepted by the Government, it would have to be made clear that the whole of Oxford Street was included in the area. Half of Oxford Street is within the borough of Marylebone, and is not in fact covered by the Amendment. The proprietors of a great number of public service vehicles in the central area of London, such as taxicabs, fear that the

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abandonment of the present restrictions on coach traffic within Central London will mean not only that will there be more of this traffic on the already overcrowded streets, but that these cumbersome vehicles, which are not designed for London streets, will be operated when and how their operators like, without any restriction on number, time or method, It would be impossible for the police or other authorities to have prior knowledge of the operation and to refuse to accept the traffic when it is known that conditions will not permit of its being handled at any particular place or time.
The objections to the proposals of the Bill are based on the amount of available road space in the central area of London. If a number of motor coaches under Part III and Part IV of the Schedule were suddenly to appear, without any warning to the police or the licensing authority, or to anybody else, they would be at liberty to go down such a street as Bond Street. The whole of the traffic in the central area, and many other streets in the City of London, would be literally in a state of complete chaos. Under the present system, those responsible for the control of traffic are warned, from the details supplied in applications for licences, what the operators contemplate; and the licensing authority, when granting an application, permit a stated number of vehicles—they have a restriction: they are able to stop an unlimited number of vehicles from doing just what they want—to be operated at definite places, at definite times, under definite conditions. Furthermore, traffic returns are made by the operators in order to prove the need for the continuance of licences.
So far as Part III of the Second Schedule is concerned, which relates only to parties of overseas visitors, it will be argued by the tourist trade that this service is demanded by visitors from abroad, and it is agreed that everything reasonable should be done to facilitate that. At the same time, it is submitted that there must be due regard to the actual physical capacity of the streets in the central area of London. The matter must be tackled on much the lines adopted now, whereby the operators have to give a regular programme to the licensing authority, and, of course, the police are ipso facto informed. The services provided by vehicle operators for overseas visitors
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include, first, meeting the parties at the main railway termini, taking them to their hotel and returning them from their hotel to the point of departure at the end of their stay; and, secondly, taking the visitors on tours, both inside and outside London.
I submit that the proposal in this Amendment is a reasonable one to which the Government should give consideration. It is probably of interest in this connection to know that the average speed of the London omnibuses at the present moment is eleven miles per hour, against sixteen miles per hour in the Provinces. If the speed of London omnibuses could be increased by only one mile per hour, it would mean a saving to London Transport of £2 million a year. I think, therefore, that we must give very serious consideration to this proposal, because, as this Bill stands, or as it will leave us when it is eventually passed into law, it may well be that, so far from London traffic being speeded up in the central area, the speed may be very much decreased. That would be a most important matter for London Transport, and could eventually lead to a further increase in the fares on London buses in the central area. I am sure we must do all we can to avoid that. Of course, there are further considerations, like the amount of fumes that a larger number of heavy vehicles will emit in the central area, but I will not touch on that. The reasons behind this Amendment are quite clear. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 3, after ("used") insert the said words.—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF ROTHES: I hope the noble Earl beside me will forgive me if in this instance I cannot agree with him. It seems to me that, if this Amendment is accepted, coaches carrying private parties into the cities of Westminster and London will require to have a road service licence.
EARL HOWE: As they do now.
THE EARL OF ROTHES: I submit that for all practical purposes, this would put a stop to most of the private parties going into the two cities, and I should have thought it was contrary to the Government's policy in regard to contract carriage work. I fully appreciate the point made by the noble Earl about further

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congestion of the streets, but I would remind him that against that we have to weigh the tourist traffic which we are trying to attract to this country; many contract parties take visitors from abroad around places of interest within the two cities. If I am correctly informed, I think the effect of having a road service licence would be that the police would be able to control the routes and stopping points of the contract carriages—a power which they have never had heretofore, and which would be most unwelcome to the operators. I hope, therefore, that this Amendment will not be accepted.
LORD GIFFORD: I should like to support the remarks made by the noble Earl, Lord Rothes. I think that if this Amendment were agreed to it would be a tremendous handicap to the tourist industry and would put on the conducting of parties of tourists from overseas restrictions which do not exist in any other capital city of Europe. In view of the fact that the tourist industry is of such great value to this country, I hope that the Amendment will not be accepted.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Earl, Lord Howe, is concerned at the congestion in central parts of London, particularly in Westminster and the City, which may arise through the visits to those parts of omnibuses or passenger service vehicles on contract. I very much hope that the arrangements we have made in the Second Schedule will not lead to a vast extension of contract carriage work. The noble Earl will appreciate that, in accordance with the suggestions we make in that Schedule, this traffic cannot be run on a commercial basis by which I mean that no travel agency can run contract carriages of this sort, except, of course, when the passengers come from abroad. Accordingly, I do not see that there should be so vast an extension of this kind of work as the noble Earl envisages. I thought, moreover, that he suggested or implied that these journeys are quite valueless. I say, in addition to what the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, has said, that surely they have considerable educational value. I think it is important that people from the country should be able to come and see Westminster Abbey or St. Paul's or the other great institutions in the City of London or this town, and be fairly free to do so.
EARL HOWE: I hope the noble Earl will forgive my interrupting, but I did not use any form of words such as he has put into my mouth.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: But the noble Earl is differentiating between this form of traffic and other forms of traffic. He is putting a complete bar on this traffic which he is not putting on any other traffic, and in doing so is suggesting that it is a form of traffic which is quite valueless. Perhaps I am quite wrong in saying that.
EARL HOWE: That was not my point at all.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This is rather a drastic and clumsy way of dealing with the matter. It would put an extremely heavy burden on the licensing authority, and one which I do not think they are fitted to deal with. The problem is much less one of route than of stopping and allowing passengers to dismount. That, I think, together with the question of where the buses are to be left when the passengers leave them, is the real problem. It is the essential problem and it is not one which is dealt with so much by the licensing authority as by the police.
I can say in regard to this matter that we are at present considering certain proposals which have been made by the police in order to regulate this particular point. I hope that in the fairly near future these proposals will reach the stage where they can be submitted to the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee. My right honourable friend has power to deal with this matter, but he is anxious to do so in a way which is fair both to the visiting parties and to the residents of London; and if he can find a way of doing that, he will put it to the Advisory Committee. We hope that it will be possible for these arrangements to begin to operate this summer—that is to say, that the parking arrangements, particularly of these vehicles, will be more carefully regulated to avoid the congestion which the noble Earl speaks of. As we have powers to do so at present, I think that is the better way to proceed, and I should be glad if the noble Earl would withdraw this Amendment.
LORD TEYNHAM: The noble Earl who has just spoken has said that this

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Bill will not lead to a vast extension in the number of contract carriages. I think the Committee should know that the real reason for this Amendment is the fear of the taxicab proprietors that they will lose business. In view of the fact that there is going to be no great increase in contract carriages, they need have no fear that they will be affected.
EARL HOWE: The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, has expressed a certain amount of fear with regard to the possible extension of contract carriages. There is nothing that I know of in the Schedules, or in the Bill itself, to prevent a large extension, if it should take place. Surely we do not want the traffic, already so hopelessly congested in the central areas, to be completely brought to a standstill by a large increase in the number of motor coaches coming to London. In all this, we are talking hypothetically, but I feel that there is a possibility of what I envisage happening. If that is so, the question of the route which these vehicles might take becomes of absolutely first importance.
If the noble Earl can assure me that in the proposals which the Minister is going to make to the London and Home Counties Advisory Committee and the police he will retain control of the whole matter, so as to prevent a large incursion by a number of unsuitable vehicles into narrow and already congested streets, I, and I am sure everybody else, will be quite satisfied. This is a matter of first importance to London traffic, not only to taxicab operators but to everybody else who has to use the streets, including the London Passenger Transport Board. So long as I am assured that the Minister will retain sufficient powers, either under this Bill or in some other way, to deal with the routes taken by these vehicles and with their numbers, I shall be absolutely satisfied. I simply do not want a large incursion of motor coaches into such streets as Bond Street or anywhere in the City, for quite obvious reasons.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I entirely agree with the noble Earl in saying that. This is a facet of our traffic problem which my right honourable friend has very much in mind. All I sought to say was that I thought the noble Earl's proposals were too drastic. I think I can set his mind entirely at rest by recalling to him Section 10 of the London Traffic Act,
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1924. There, the Minister has power to prescribe streets which are not to be used for traffic of a specified class, and he also has power to prescribe streets where vehicles of any particular class may or may not wait. I am not in a position to say in exactly which way those powers will be used in conjunction with the police, but this matter is under consideration, as I have said, and we hope to be able to begin this new arrangement this summer.
EARL HOWE: Would the noble Earl be able to say anything about this on Report stage, or would it take longer than that?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am afraid that I shall not be able to do that, because this matter will have to go before the London and Home Counties Advisory Committee before it can be dealt with finally. But I will certainly inform the noble Earl as soon as I have any information.
EARL HOWE: In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 agreed to.
3.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF ROTHES THE EARL OF ROTHES moved, after Clause 21 to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of s. 81 of the Act of 1930
"22.—(1) For subsection (1) of section eighty-one of the Act of 1930 (which provides for appeals to the Minister in connection with public service vehicle licences, road service licences and certificates of fitness) there shall be substituted the following subsection:—
'Any person who—

(a) being an applicant for the grant of a public service vehicle licence or road service licence, is aggrieved by the refusal or failure of the commissioners to grant the licence, or with any condition imposed by the commissioners; or

(b) being the holder of a road service licence, is aggrieved by the refusal of the commissioners to entertain an application made by him for the variation of the conditions attached to the licence; or

(c) being, an applicant for the variation of conditions attached to a road service licence, whose application the commissioners have not within the prescribed time refused to entertain, is aggrieved by the refusal or failure of the commissioners to make the variation; or

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(d) being a local authority which, or a person providing transport facilities who, has opposed the grant or variation of a road service licence, is aggrieved by the grant thereof or by any condition or by any variation of the conditions attached thereto; or

(e) being the holder of a public service vehicle licence or road service licence, is aggrieved at the revocation or suspension thereof by the commissioners, or by any variation of the conditions attached thereto; or

(f) being the holder of a public service vehicle licence, is agrieved by the refusal of a certifying officer to remove the suspension thereof; or

(g) being an applicant for or the holder of a certificate of fitness, is aggrieved by the refusal of a certifying officer to issue such a certificate or by the limitation of its duration proposed by the certifying officer or by the revocation of a certificate;

may within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner appeal to the Minister:
Provided that an applicant for the variation of the conditions attached to a road service licence shall not be entitled to appeal to the Minister from the refusal or failure of the commissioners to entertain the application without the consent of the commissioners or of the Minister.'
(2) In subsection (4) of the said section eighty-one there shall be inserted at the end of the subsection the words 'unless the variation was made pursuant to an application made by the holder of the licence'."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a complicated but, I submit, a very important Amendment and one which I am moving on behalf of the Public Transport Association and the Passenger Vehicle Operators' Association. Moreover, I strongly suspect that the Municipal Passenger Transport Association and the British Transport Commission's bus companies, and even the traffic commissioners themselves, would not be averse to it. The Amendment follows exactly the recommendations of the Thesiger Committee in paragraph 59 of their Report. Under Section 72 of the 1930 Act the holder of a road service licence can apply to the traffic commissioners for what is technically known as a "variation of the conditions of his licence." This is, in fact, the procedure under the Act whereby alterations in fares or time tables are normally dealt with. Under Section 81 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, if the traffic commissioners take the initiative and decide to vary the conditions of the holder's licence, either as regards fares or timetable, the holder of a road service
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licence has a right of appeal to the Minister. If, on the other hand, the holder of a road service licence takes the initiative and asks the traffic commissioners to vary the conditions of his licence and they fail to do so, then the holder of the licence has no such right of appeal to the Minister.
This covers not only the exceptional cases where the traffic commissioners do not come to any decision as to whether or not they will hear the application within a time which my Amendment suggests should be prescribed by the Minister, but also cases more likely to occur in practice, where the traffic commissioners do consider the application and refuse it. Here the Amendment, under paragraph (c), would enable the applicant to appeal to the Minister. Paragraph (b) of the Amendment provides that an appeal shall lie from the refusal of the transport commissioners to entertain an application for variation—that is, a refusal to consider it at all. As noble Lords will see from the proviso to the Amendment, in such a case an appeal lies only with the consent of the transport commissioners or of the Minister. This follows the view accepted by the Thesiger Committee in paragraph 59 that while
"the right might rarely be resorted to in practice, … it would, however, be a valuable safeguard against the possibility of arbitrary action by the licensing authority."
A different but also important point arises under subsection (2). The object here is to try to remedy a defect which has recently come to light in the operation of Section 81 of the Act of 1930. Subsection (4) of that section provides that where the holder of a licence appeals against any variation, the variation shall not have effect until any appeal against it has been disposed of. In practice this has led to delays to the detriment of the holder of a road service licence, delays which I believe were never intended. If, for example, an operator applies for a large number of variations in his fares and the majority of these increases are granted but a minority of them are not granted he would not, under the provision if it is strictly construed, be entitled to charge any of the increased fares which had been granted until his appeal against the minority which had not been granted had been disposed of. In such circumstances it may mean that a licence holder would not be entitled for many months to

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charge any of the increased fares which had been approved. I do not consider that to be either fair or equitable, or that it was the intended result of the procedure originally laid down. Subsection (2) of the proposed new clause is intended to remedy this defect by amending subsection (4) of Section 81 of the 1930 Act so that it will not apply where the application for variation is made by the holder of the road service licence.
I very much hope that my noble friend will be able to accept this Amendment. He may suggest that, as a recommendation of the Thesiger Committee, it should await a subsequent Bill at some future date when that Report is dealt with. I very much hope that he will not suggest a delay of that kind, as this Amendment is regarded by all concerned as of great urgency and importance. If it were any assistance to my noble friend to know this, I would say that those on whose behalf I am moving this Amendment would, if the Amendment were accepted, undertake not to seek for the implementation in this Bill of any of the other recommendations of the Thesiger Committee. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 21 insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Rothes.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This is a fairly complicated matter but it is a subject which has been thoroughly examined by the Thesiger Committee, and I think there is general agreement with the manner in which that Committee set about its task. It is felt that this is probably a fair improvement to the methods of using the licensing machinery. It gives an additional appeal which, in certain circumstances, is considered fair and proper. But we should like to go the whole way with the Thesiger Committee in this matter, and to add to the Amendment a provision whereby other operators who have made representations on the proposal to vary and who are on a nearby route should also have the opportunity of appealing to the Minister; and, equally, that local authorities in the area affected who have made representations should also have that right. If the noble Earl is prepared to agree to that general proposal, and one or two other points of clarification which we might find it desirable to suggest to him, I should be glad to accept his
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Amendment in principle. Perhaps on the Report stage the noble Earl would move it, or it might be done by Her Majesty's Government. If the noble Earl will agree to withdraw his Amendment now I shall be glad to see that that is done before the Report stage.
THE EARL OF ROTHES: I am grateful to my noble friend. I understand that he accepts the Amendment in principle, and perhaps it will be possible for me to consult with him between now and the Report stage. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL HOWE: This Amendment speaks for itself. There have been cases where the operator has been proceeded against and fined. He has taken every possible step to ensure compliance with the law, but notwithstanding that, he has been dealt with. Therefore, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 21, insert the said new clause:
Amendment of s. 16 of Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933
(".Section sixteen of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933 (which relates to the keeping of records as to hours of work journeys loads and other matters) shall be read and have effect as if at the end of subsection (5) thereof there were inserted the following words:
'Provided that it shall be a defence in any proceedings brought under this section against the holder of a licence to prove that the holder of the licence took all reasonable steps to ensure compliance with the provisions of this section and of the regulations made thereunder and that the offence was committed without his knowledge'.")—(Earl Howe.)
LORD MANCROFT: I am afraid this is not quite so simple a matter as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has made out. Superficially the point with which he has tried to deal in his Amendment is a very reasonable one—the protection of a man who has done everything within his power to stay within the law and who, through no fault of his own, has committed what might appear to be a technical offence. But were we to accept this Amendment, we might well lay ourselves open to committing something much more serious. I would ask the Committee to bear with me while I explain the danger which I have in my mind. Section 16 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, to which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is referring, provides

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that "the holder of a licence shall keep or cause to be kept" certain records about drivers' hours and particulars of journeys and goods carried. These are most important records which ought to be kept. Subsection (5) of Section 16 of the Act makes it an offence to fail to comply with those provisions. It is not, therefore, a defence to say that the driver failed to keep the record, contrary to instructions and in circumstances in which he could not be supervised—that is to say, when he was out on a distant journey. The driver must be guilty of an offence in not keeping the records and must be prosecuted accordingly; but as the licence-holder is also responsible for causing the necessary records to be kept, he is also guilty of an offence if the driver fails to keep them. It is true he may have been let down by a careless employee, but he is not likely to be prosecuted for an isolated offence; and surely it is up to him to discipline his employees so that they do not disobey instructions. In the last resort (if this is not too extreme a course to suggest) he might even get another driver.
The Amendment of the noble Earl, whilst appearing to let out the employer only when it is not unreasonable that he should be let out, in fact, would provide ample opportunity for collusive evasion of the law. With a compliant driver it would be relatively simple to show convincingly that the licence holder had taken "all reasonable steps," and very easy to demonstrate that the particular offence was committed without his knowledge. The driver would merely be fined (and possibly reimbursed by the employer) and the most effective sanction—the suspension or revocation of licence—could not be used. The worst offences against the statutory requirements about drivers' hours are those committed by the willing driver and the knowing employer. I suggest that it would be most unwise to weaken seriously the enforcement of the law against them—that is, against the willing driver and the knowing employer—merely in order to deal with the occasional, and not very hard, case of the careless driver and the innocent employer.
The effect of this Amendment would be to encourage owners and drivers, employers and drivers, to get together in order to break or evade the safety regulations which all branches of industry are satisfied that it is right and proper should
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be observed. I cannot feel that it would improve the Bill to give opportunity for the deliberate evasion of these regulations. It certainly would not add to safety on the roads. I think that these provisions are very wise and that we should stick to them. Any injustice that might possibly come out of them would, I think, be infinitesimal compared with the harm that might well be done if these safety regulations could be consistently and knowingly flouted. I hope, therefore, that the noble Earl will on reflection see his way to withdraw the Amendment.
EARL HOWE: If ever I get involved in a serious motoring case I think I shall brief the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, to defend me. He has produced what I can only describe as a magnificent argument from one point of view. To take the other point of view, how about the driver who sets out to let his employer down? The employer, it may well be, has done everything he can to see that the law is observed, but the driver possibly puts his head together with one or two of his fellow employees and takes part in collusive action against the employer. However, it is no use my pursuing the point. I really do mean, though, that if I ever get charged with a serious motoring offence I shall ask the noble Lord to undertake my defence.
LORD MANCROFT: Thank you very much.
EARL HOWE: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.34 p.m.
THE EARL OF ROTHES THE EARL OF ROTHES moved, after Clause 21 to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of Twelfth Schedule of London Passenger Transport Act, 1933
".The Twelfth Schedule to the London Passenger Transport Act, 1933 (which sets out the constitution of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee) shall be read and have effect as if at the end of paragraph 1 thereof (which specifies the number of members of the said Committee and by whom they shall be appointed) there were inserted the following words:
'one—By the Minister, after consultation with such bodies representative of those interests as he may think fit, to represent the interests of persons (other than the British Transport Commission) who are holders of public carriers' licences and

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limited carriers' licences under the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, within the London Traffic Area.
one—By the Minister, after consultation with such bodies representative of those interests as he may think fit, to represent the interests of persons who are holders of private carriers licences under the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, within the London Traffic Area.
one—By the Minister, after consultation with such bodies representative of those interests as he may think fit, to represent the interests of persons (other than the British Transport Commission) who are the holders of licences authorising them to operate public service vehicles within the London Traffic Area.'"
The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to suggest that the constitution of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee should be brought more into line with modern requirements. This Committee is, I believe, the only Committee which advises the Minister on all matters affecting traffic restrictions and regulations in regard to roads and their use. It is a very large body, the present membership being forty. It consists mainly of representatives of local authorities with only a very limited representation of road users. In fact, the mechanically propelled vehicles, horse-drawn traffic and taxicab industry all have the same representation on the Committee—namely, one representative each. Through the years this Committee has, I am informed, greatly increased its influence, and now may be said to a large extent to guide the Minister on matters of principle which tend to be applied throughout the whole country. It seems, therefore, that there should be adequate provision for representatives of goods motor vehicles operators and independent passenger vehicle operators as such.
It is true, as I have said, that provision is made for single representation of mechanically propelled vehicles, but nowadays there are so many differences in the types of vehicles operated that it is surely important that each of the large sections of road vehicle operators should be represented. I suggest that there is now an opportunity for the Government to amend the constitution of this Committee and at least to provide specifically for three additional members of the Committee, one representing A and B licence holders, one representing traders operating under C licences, and one representing passenger vehicle operators. Incidentally, this would not be the first time that the
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constitution of the Committee has been amended, as it was specially amended in 1933 to provide, among other things, for the representation of the London Passenger Transport Board. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 21 insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Rothes.)
LORD TEYNHAM: I should like to add my support to this Amendment and, in doing so, to point out that the motoring organisations are also dissatisfied with the composition and terms of reference of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee. It is true that it is a very large Committee, mainly representative of local authorities, and with a very limited representation of road users. I suggest that the present membership, which I believe is about forty, is much too large. The result is that the actual work is being done by subcommittees. For this reason the administrative procedure has become cumbersome and, I would say, rather inefficient. I think that the numbers of the Committee should be reduced to about twenty-one, and if your Lordships will bear with me a moment I will suggest to you how the membership should be allocated. There should be appointed by the Minister of Transport, one; by the London County Council, three; by the City Corporation, one; by the Westminster City Council, one; by motor operators, three; by the Metropolitan, Police, one; by the City Police, one; by the British Transport Commission, two; by the Ministry of Labour, two; by mechanically propelled goods vehicles, two; by passenger carrying vehicles other than taxis, one; by taxi-cabs, one; and by private cars and motor cycles, two. If your Lordships will add those up, you will see that the total comes to twenty-one.
The London traffic area is larger than the Metropolitan Police area, and this means that outside police authorities are represented upon the Committee. I think it would help if, in reducing the size of the Committee, the Metropolitan traffic area were reduced so as to coincide with the Metropolitan Police district. At the present time, there is one representative, I think, for horse drawn traffic, and one to represent the taxi-cab industry, and I do not think it is unfair to ask that a special representative for the motor cycles and for private cars should be appointed.

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I hope that Her Majesty's Government will take this opportunity of looking into the whole representation of this Committee and amend it as necessary.
LORD SILKIN: I have no particular views about what should be the composition of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, but there is a fundamental point here which applies to most advisory committees. Is it to be an advisory committee consisting of people who know something about the subject they are advising upon, or is it to be a committee consisting of representatives of interested parties? Under the terms of this Amendment this would quite definitely be a committee consisting of representatives of interested parties. It says so in the strongest possible terms. I read that it is proposed that there should be a representative of "persons … who are holders of public carriers' licences," a representative of "persons who are holders of private carriers' licences" and a representative of "persons … who are the holders of licences authorising them to operate public service vehicles within the London Traffic Area," and so on. It does not strike me as being the right kind of body to give independent and objective advice.
I speak, not with any authority on this matter, but because in my time I have had to appoint committees of this kind, and I was faced with the same kind of problem. My own view would be: by all means widen the composition of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee so as to ensure that it is composed of people familiar with the subject on which they are advising, but do not tie the Committee down in this restricted way to people representing the interests of particular bodies. I would certainly have no objection to some form of words which would widen the type of person appointed to the Committee, but I think it would be a great mistake to restrict it in this way.
3.40 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before the noble Earl replies, I should like to say that while I have sympathy with the proposal of the noble Earl, Lord Rothes, I think my noble friend has made an important point. If the Government are moved to look at a committee such
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as this, has not the time arrived for them to consider that the traffic congestion problem is not confined to London and the Home Counties? This is a national problem. Nobody could have illustrated that better than the noble Earl in charge of the Bill, in his forthright comments yesterday upon the relieving of congestion by designated parking places. If the Government are moved to consider re-orienting the personnel of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee—which is a body entirely different from the National Safety First Committee, which sits to advise the Minister under the chairmanship of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport—I suggest that we should have a body representing the whole country. I am not suggesting that we should disband the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee; but where do the traffic problems in Manchester and district in Lancashire, in Yorkshire and the East Midlands, fall short of the problems in London and the Home countries?
I do not know whether these advisory committees are good. I sometimes think they are good feather-bedding between an enraged populace and the bureaucracy. They are very nice cushions for the Minister who, when he gets a problem, refers it to the Committee. That will switch it about for a year. But if the Government think that bodies like this are of use in the future, in fairness they should look at the problem from the point of view of the whole country. I would underline my noble friend's point that once the Committee is composed of people representing specific interests, where is it going to stop? I had this problem when I was at the Ministry. Once these people are put on the Committee, the Minister is inundated with requests from other reputable trade associations, all asking why they should not come in. My experience has been that one should never have on an advisory committee a mandated representative who can only "parrot" what is in his brief, what he has been sent there to say to protect the vested interests he serves and not for the good of the traffic problem as a whole. That is the danger. It is difficult to get people of sufficient knowledge independent of any interest. I would say the balance on any committee should be of people who have no self-interest or partial interest.
LORD TEYNHAM: I think the noble Lord is aware that the Committee as composed at present is representative of many different interests. It is on that basis at the moment. When speaking to the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Rothes, I only suggested that certain interests which are not on the Committee should be put in.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The noble Lord is just emphasising my point.
LORD TEYNHAM: They are there already.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: On Report stage, I might come along with another list of bodies that are not on the Committee now. In principle, the noble Lord may be right. There may be a basis for enlarging the sphere of knowledge of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, but in this my sympathy is somewhat with the Government. I would ask the noble Lord: if the Government are sympathetic towards these advisory committees sufficiently to reorganise the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, what about the problems of the rest of the country?
EARL HOWE: I have listened with rapt attention to what has fallen from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. I have an idea that the noble Lord had affiliations with the Ministry of Transport in the past. I had an idea that he was responsible for what happened there. He has not produced anything new. The London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee have been sitting for years and have done magnificent work on the whole. They have really done their best to improve traffic. But if the noble Lord thought the Committee was so unsuitable, why did he not do something when he was at the Ministry?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I never said it was unsuitable. I never criticised it in one single sentence I said. I did say that if we are going to reorganise the membership or add to the membership of this Committee, we are up against the problem of the one-hundred-and-one organisations that are not now upon it. I had all this trouble with the National Safety First Committee, an admirable Committee, but I can tell your Lordships of half a dozen estimable
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bodies which are not represented on it. Once we put those bodies on it, another half dozen would ask to be represented. I am prepared to be guided on these matters by the noble Earl in charge of the Bill. I am not saying that the bodies suggested are not admirable bodies to be represented on the Committee; but what are we going to do—are we going to enlarge these committees and make them into general meetings?
EARL HOWE: If we were producing a new committee, we should in the abstract probably all agree with the noble Lord; but here is a Committee which has been going on for years and over which he has had jurisdiction in the past. Surely his remarks go a little far. Everybody knows the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, and on the whole everybody is fairly satisfied with their work. I am glad the noble Lord was so "tough" with the organisations who wanted to get on it. In a way it is absurd to enlarge the Committee, as the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has said, and it would be much better if the membership could be reduced in numbers and made a more accurate representation of road users. I do not care a bit whether a man is a mandated representative or not so long as he knows something about the problem the Committee is dealing with. So long as we can get a committee of Londoners, road users and the like, I am perfectly certain we need not worry too much about whether they are mandated or not. In the past, the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee has worked to great effect, and I hope it will continue to do so. I feel that its representation should be brought up to date in line with modern conditions. Therefore, I support my noble friends.
LORD HURCOMB: I find myself very much in agreement with the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I do not in the least wish to argue against some device relative to the whole country, but how it would be possible to gather together in one room, even so large as your Lordships' House, a body which would be accepted by all the large cities and all the counties throughout the country, I do not know. But this Committee has a long history and in the past has done remarkable work. It had the opportunity from the start of bringing together the police

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authorities from the metropolitan area and the City of London and outside, the highway authorities, the traffic experts in the Ministry of Transport and the Home Office, the great groups of users and, more particularly, London Transport.
I know that the late Mr. Frank Pitt, who was known to many of your Lordships, spent months of his time in the early days trying to get all these traffic regulations—where street crossings should be, where the London buses should stop, and that kind of thing—threshed out, with his own expert knowledge, as well as that of the other transport users and the police, the highway authorities and their surveyors, who had the problem of siting these stopping places, and, when Belisha crossings were introduced, just where they should be put. A vast mass of detailed work was done by this Committee and, I should have thought, could usefully continue to be done, at any rate in the metropolis and in Greater London, provided that the Committee has a reasonable representation of the users, as well as of all the other constituent elements.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, that it is much too big; a body of forty people is too big, and it is forced to work with sub-committees. The reason for that is the necessity of appeasing or placating the sentiment of the local authorities. The metropolitan boroughs are not content to be represented by the London County Council, and they are not content to be represented by any one of them, so they are given a certain number of representatives. Then there are all the boroughs outside, and the counties in this area; and so the local representation builds up. They never found it easy to select their representatives. I remember my old friend, Sir Henry Jackson, who was a Member of another place, saying that in the last resort he used to put the names in a bowler hat and get someone to draw them out; and that superseded an elaborate statutory procedure of panels. But that is a trifle. Perhaps the noble Earl in charge of the Bill could consider whether, if additional interests are to be let in, some, at any rate, of the present highway authority representation, which may be less important, might be—not removed, for they are important, but perhaps reduced in number. But substantially I hope that your Lordships will not
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seek to destroy the work of this Committee, which I think at the moment is of great value, and certainly in previous years has proved most valuable.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I do not want to go too wide of this Amendment by considering the broader issues of the whole country, because I think the purpose of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee is quite clear. London is much bigger than any other place, and the structure of its local authorities is quite different: it requires a body of this sort to bring them together. I think that is entire justification for adopting here a procedure which may be different from that adopted for the rest of the country. That will not prevent the rest of the country from dealing with the problem, though in many cases it can be dealt with quite well between the local authorities and the police. However, the point here is that this is a statutory Committee. It was set up under the London Traffic Act, 1924. I think it is right that I should echo what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, have said as to the outstanding value of the work which this Committee has done. That work should be recognised fully in your Lordships' House.
I am sure your Lordships listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, who, after all, has been in close personal touch with this Committee for a long time. I think the view of my right honourable friend is very much what the noble Lord said; that probably there should be a radical revision in the structure of this Committee. Unfortunately, it is not possible to get that in time for this Bill, because it needs a great deal of negotiation with the local authorities and other interests concerned. Therefore, I am afraid I must exclude the possibility of anything approximating to what my noble friend Lord Teynham suggested.
The question then arises whether we should now, to some extent, redress the balance in the existing Committee without going for a radical revision. I am sure we were all interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin said. In these committees it is always most difficult to secure a balance between the specialist and what I may call the objectivist—the man who has the knowledge and the man who is entirely independent from the problem. But I think we must agree that

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in traffic problems it is essential to have a good deal of real knowledge of the problem. It is no good getting men, however wise, and setting them together if they do not know what it is about. I think the sort of associations mentioned in the Amendment are representative of big national organisations, or at least the local branches of national organisations, and I do not think they would be accused of representing some purely narrow interest. They have great experience of operation and could add some value to the Committee.
I am somewhat at a loss to know what to do now. As my noble friend Lord Teynham said, the Committee at present includes only one representative for mechanically propelled vehicles. That may have been all right thirty years ago, but it is obvious that today one representative for mechanically propelled vehicles is an absurdity; and we must rectify this with some representation of the commercial interest as such. My noble friend Lord Teynham has said that, although his name is on this Amendment, he would rather like to have some additional representative. If my noble friend Lord Rothes, who moved the Amendment, agrees, I shall be happy for the Amendment to be withdrawn, and we may be able to find some arrangement between now and the Report stage on which we can all agree. In principle, we are quite happy to accept the Amendment as it stands, but if the noble Earl feels that he wants to make an addition, then I think he must withdraw the Amendment and consider the matter further. As I say, if he wishes to withdraw the Amendment now, we can consider it before the Report stage.
THE EARL OF ROTHES: I should like to begin by saying that nothing in this Amendment, and nothing I have said, is intended to criticise or belittle the work of this Committee. I admire what the Committee has done in the past, and the object of the Amendment was to see that it had a new look in order to face modern requirements. Perhaps it would be better if I withdrew the Amendment now—I think we are all much of one mind as to what is required—so that between now and Report stage we could have consultation on the whole question of the composition of the Committee. Some new Amendment could then be moved on Report.
THE EARL OE SELKIRK: I entirely agree with the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF ROTHES: In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: Before the Amendment is withdrawn, I think it would be worth while to give a little thought to the point I made. It would meet my point if, instead of using the words "to represent the interests of," the words were "persons nominated by" these bodies. That would not be so pointed: it would not suggest that they had to sit on the Committee to represent the interests of particular bodies. I should not have the slightest objection to their being nominated, however. I hope the noble Earl will consider it.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The appointment is made by the Minister.
LORD SILKIN: Nevertheless, it leaves a bad taste to say that they are to represent somebody's interest when the Committee is an advisory body.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I have the noble Lord's point. I will certainly bear it in mind and see whether we can meet it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.1 p.m.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, after Clause 21, to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of First Schedule of Road Traffic Act, 1934
".Paragraph 2 of the First Schedule to the Act of 1934 (which specifies the maximum permitted speeds of goods vehicles) shall be read and have effect as if in sub-paragraph (1) (d) thereof (which relates to heavy motor cars) in place of the maximum speed of 20 miles per hour there were substituted the maximum speed of 30 miles per hour."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment explains itself, and I am sure that every member of the Committee is acquainted with the point which is raised. Heavy goods vehicles are limited—or are supposed to be—to 20 m.p.h. If that limit were adhered to—and I hope that everybody on the Front Bench, including the Lord Chancellor is listening to this particular point—it would to that extent limit the usefulness of the heavy goods vehicle and the contribution it can make to the trade of the country. There is little that happens in our daily lives, and little that we use in our daily lives, which does not at some stage or another depend upon the

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heavy goods vehicle for its transport. Therefore, an increase in the cost of road transport will certainly be reflected in the cost of living. To what extent the cost of living is affected, I am not sure: I have seen estimates, and I could give them if necessary.
Here we have a limit of 20 m.p.h. The Road Research Board have told us that 94 per cent. of the vehicles affected completely disregard the limit. A Government Committee have also acknowledged that 94 per cent. of the vehicles affected pay no sort of attention to this 20 m.p.h. limit—and it is fortunate from the point of view of the country that they do not, because the cost of everything might go up a little more if they did. I think we all know that the heavy goods vehicles proceed at the ordinary road speed of other vehicles, and that when they get to a point where there is a rest house or a cafe they have a bit longer there so that the scheduled speed is not exceeded. But they are, in fact, for the most part, breaking the law, and surely we ought not to be accessories after the fact. Ought we not to recognise the fact that the 20 m.p.h. limit is completely out of date and should be brought into line with modern vehicles and modern conditions? Furthermore, if all the heavy vehicles were solemnly to proceed along the roads at 20 m.p.h., just think what the congestion would be and what would happen on the roads under heavy traffic conditions. Take the A.5. Many of your Lordships know that road, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, knows it well. If heavy vehicles proceeded along the A.5 at a steady 20 m.p.h., just think what could happen on occasions, not only by day but also by night, because the A.5 is more heavily trafficked by night than it is by day.
I submit that the case is simply unanswerable, and that the real reason for the failure to bring this law up to date has never yet been publicly stated or publicly acknowledged from the Front Bench of either House, under this Government or the last Government—or, indeed, any Government. If the heavy vehicles were allowed to proceed legally at 30 m.p.h.—most of them are doing so at the moment—it would not increase the dangers. It would not reduce the margin of road safety, because they are all going at 30 m.p.h. at the present time, so that
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conditions are not likely to get any worse. If the heavy vehicles were to keep strictly to the limit, passing conditions would be even worse than they are to-day. At the present moment the vehicles are going at 30 m.p.h., and surely, from a safety point of view, the important thing to do on the roads of this country is to reduce the amount of passing that is necessary and to keep up an even flow of traffic. That you more nearly approach if you allow the heavy vehicles to go legally at the speed they should.
There is another point; the question of fatigue of the drivers. The drivers would not find it more fatiguing to go at 30 m.p.h. In fact, it would be less fatiguing, because there would not be so much gear-changing to be done. The other day the Minister of Transport brought out proposals for an expanded road programme. One of his proposals, the most important one—and the one, I dare say, which people who are interested in traffic would like to see carried out before anything else—is the modernisation of the main road to the north, past the outskirts of Birmingham and, eventually, to Lancashire. That is a magnificent proposal. But when are we going to see it? Does anybody suppose that, if that proposal comes into being, heavy motor vehicles will go along that road at 20 m.p.h.? Is it not really silly to suggest it? The ordinary speed of the heavy motor vehicle on the road to-day is about 30 m.p.h., and surely we ought to take advantage of it.
Let me refer to a further anomaly. Although heavy goods vehicles are to-day limited to 20 m.p.h., a public service vehicle, with a load of passengers, may go at 30 m.p.h. It does not bear any relation to the needs of modern traffic or the needs of the public, and I submit that it is all humbug for anybody to get up on behalf of this or any other Government and say that the limit should be 20 m.p.h. for reasons of safety or anything to do with road conditions. We all know what the real answer is. Why not say so? Why not face the facts? I am perfectly certain that, if they can do that, this Government will gain a lot in public opinion. If they do not, and if they will not agree to this Amendment, they will be making themselves accessories after the fact, and conniving at a wholesale breaking of the law—and during this

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debate we have heard a great deal about breaking the law. I hope that the Government will be able to give some assurance on this most important matter. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 21, insert the said new clause.—(Earl Howe.)
LORD MANCROFT: My noble friend Lord Howe is perfectly correct when he says that this is a familiar argument. We have, indeed, heard this over a long time and we have heard the points he has put forward. Many of us are familiar with them, and have some considerable sympathy with some of the arguments he has advanced. Before I come to deal with the main issue—and I will deal with it very shortly—let me just remind the Committee of this fact. If this extension from 20 m.p.h. to.30 m.p.h. were to be approved, it could perfectly well be done by a change made by the Minister in the regulations. This Amendment is quite unnecessary, because Section 10 (4) of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, enables the Minister by regulation to make variations of the sort the noble Earl requires, subject to approval by Affirmative Resolutions of both Houses of Parliament.
Leaving that aside for the moment, let us consider the general fundamental point. This limit was originally imposed primarily for safety reasons. Experience and the improved design and construction of modern goods vehicles have to some extent, however, weakened the case for its retention. My right honourable friend, the Minister of Transport, feels that the objections which formerly existed on safety grounds are now not so strong. But changes in matters of this kind, which affect not only safety but also the general conditions under which the work is carried out, should not be made until the interests concerned—in this case the employers and the trade unions—have had full opportunity of reaching some measure of agreement. My right honourable friend the Minister of Transport is not prepared to take action in this Bill which might well prejudicially affect any discussions between the employers and the trade unions. My noble friend, Lord Howe, was kind enough a moment or two ago to offer me a general retainer, and I should like, if I may, to offer him my first piece of advice in that capacity as learned—and unpaid—counsel. I will
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ask him to be good enough to consider fully the implications of what I have said, and in the light of that consideration I hope he will press neither his argument nor the Amendment.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I have waited until the noble Lord spoke before offering any observations from this side. The noble Lord rightly says that this is an age-old and very contentious matter, but I cannot think it is in the national interests for it to go on in this wholly unsatisfactory state year in and year out. It is something for which Parliament and the Government have a responsibility. I am fully aware of what is in the noble Lord's mind. I would not say a word that would make the matter more difficult. But somebody has to take a lead, and in matters of this kind I suggest, with great respect, that Her Majesty's Government are the only possible people to do so.
If I may be bold enough, without impertinence, I would suggest to the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, that here we have a section of the law of this land which is brought into flagrant disrepute. I do not think it is right it should be. Either the law should be enforced or it should not. I pray in aid in saying this a dictum of a most respected Member of your Lordships' House, Lord Justice du Parcq, who said in the context of another case where the law was not being observed—and it happened to be a road matter as well—that if there are absurdities in the law it is only by enforcement of the law that those absurdities can be brought to the light of day, and it is then Parliament's duty to take action to remove them. I expect the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, is as well aware of what the late noble and learned Lord, Lord du Parcq, said as I am. I think it is wrong—if I may use this expression—that successive Governments should "pass the buck." That is a vulgarism, but it is the only expression I can think of on the spur of the moment.
I believe there is a solution to this problem, but it wants somebody to give the lead. There is a solution, and a solution which I think the noble Lord or his advisers know. The noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, had this problem from the employers' point of view when he

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was the Chairman of the British Transport Commission. I hope I am not saying anything which he would not care to say himself, but I know he was anxious and willing to play his part, as one of the largest employers of labour. I do not want a discussion in this House which will make anything more difficult, but I think somebody must take the lead. We cannot go on as at present. It is a negation of Parliamentary responsibility, and that is bad. I suggest that the Government should really act in this matter, not in any arbitrary way; that would be ridiculous. If the police were to enforce the law, that would soon bring the matter to a head. But the Government cannot go on dilly-dallying and shilly-shallying. It is not in the national interests that they should. It is not an intractable problem. A few diplomatic advances, and I believe the two sides can be brought together. There is a method of negotiation in this particular field that will smooth out all difficulties, and I would seriously ask the Government, before we have another debate on the question, to try and explore that avenue and see whether we cannot bring an end to such a state of affairs.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): I am glad the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has made that contribution to the debate, because he knows very well that, in addition to being a difficult subject, this is a delicate one and one that might be approached in a method not entirely devoid of Party differences. That is why I am so grateful to the noble Lord for coming into this debate in the way he has. Speaking from those Benches, he has eliminated an aspect of the matter which might otherwise, if I may put it colloquially, have "reared its ugly head." Fortunately, here we are in a position where it is not asking the House to lose a once-and-for-all opportunity of putting the matter right. If it were so, I should sympathise greatly with the noble Lords who have spoken, who would then feel that if we did not act now we should be allowing this anomaly to continue. I would remind the House once again that under Section 10 (4) of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, the Minister is enabled by regulation to make variations in the provisions of the schedule, but subject to Affirmative Resolution of both Houses. So that not
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only has the Minister power, but the House has control.
I entirely sympathise with the views that have been advanced by Lord Howe and Lord Lucas of Chilworth, with regard to the law and to its being in a position where its continual disregard brings it into disrepute. So long as I am head of the legal profession of this country I will certainly do everything within my power to see that such a state of affairs shall not obtain if I can get rid of it. Therefore, on the matter of principle there is no difference between myself and the noble Lords who have addressed their minds to this problem. On the question of timing, however, I ask noble Lords to consider this question again. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, knows very well how in the past it has appeared at some happy moment as if we were very near to a solution of this matter, and then some aspect has overtaken us and the negotiations have not succeeded. I give this undertaking to the House: that I will take this matter up most seriously, not only with my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport but also with my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour so soon as he returns to harness, which I hope will be in the near future. We will try to make another effort to solve a problem which has hitherto been intractable.
I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth—and I think the content of my suggestion indicates that I am putting this matter forward as seriously as I can—that he should bear in mind that executive action has to be taken. I am sure he will not forget, during the next few months and considerably before the beginning of the Summer Recess, to bring this matter to my attention, either personally or otherwise, and thereafter, if I do not satisfy him, bring it to the attention of your Lordships' House. I want to make another effort to deal with this matter. It would be unfortunate if, by legislating where there is already action open to us, we were to seem to take a hurried and what might appear arbitrary course. I hope that, on my assurance to your Lordships, not only of action but also of my real appreciation of the seriousness of the position when the law is brought into disrepute, my noble friend will be good enough to withdraw the Amendment.
4.22 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: I support the Amendment mainly on one ground. This is a matter which I have frequently discussed with magistrates, and I find that they are all in favour of altering the law in the way the Amendment proposes. Practically unanimously they say the same thing to me: that it is a most invidious task to administer a law which they believe to be completely out of date and which they feel should be amended in this direction. They tell me that if they have to impose a penalty upon a man for exceeding the limit of 20 m.p.h., their sympathies are almost always with the man. I am quite sure that it will be found that the great majority of magistrates throughout the country hold the same views.
I fully appreciate what the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has said about choosing the right time to handle the matter as between employers and the trade unions. I entirely agree that that is a matter of delicacy which must be handled carefully, but I also think there is a limit to the time the Minister responsible can continue to plead, in a matter which, as we have heard to-day, has his sympathies, that he does not like the law as it stands. There should be a limit to the time in which a Minister, out of deference to the opinions of other parties, is prepared to go on upholding a law of which he disapproves. On that account, I think that those of us who support this Amendment have a right to ask that there shall be some limit to the time taken up by such consultations. If, after employing great tact and giving a great deal of time to the matter, the Minister finds he cannot bring the parties together, then he should act. He should not always plead a bottleneck to prevent him from doing something which he wants to do. I feel that the time is reached when a Minister must act to remove a bottleneck although he has exhausted his powers of persuasion in trying to remove it. He cannot say, "This bottleneck must remain: I cannot carry out what I want to." I should like to impress very strongly indeed upon the Minister in charge of the Bill that there must be some limit to the period during which consultations go on. The matter must be brought to a head.
LORD GIFFORD: I am sure we have been deeply impressed by the serious
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words of the noble and learned Viscount and, in view of what he, has said, I should not think of supporting the Amendment. But may I put one point of view which may possibly help him in his deliberations? If, by order, this increase in the speed limit is brought in, that does not force people to go at that limit; they can still continue, while negotiations are proceeding, using their schedules, or whatever it may be, under the old 20 m.p.h. limit. It merely lifts the ban and makes it legal to go at 30 m.p.h. but does not put force or pressure in any way on the drivers of vehicles to do so. Could not that point be brought out?
THE EARL OF LUCAN: So far, nothing has been said on this subject from the point of view of the private motorist. I think it is as well that somebody should voice what I believe is the view of a large number of us who use small motor cars on the roads. We are not keen that commercial traffic, heavy goods vehicles, should be allowed to go at much greater speeds. I admit the argument that, from the economic point of view, the speeding up of goods traffic would obviously be an advantage. But from the point of view of the road user, are we really going to find less necessity for passing goods vehicles if their speed limit is increased? If goods vehicles travel at 30 m.p.h. and stick to the 30 m.p.h. limit, the private car will still want to pass them, so that there will be no difference in the amount of passing on these narrow roads. If these vehicles do not stick to the 30 m.p.h. limit, the law will again be brought into contempt, just as it is at the moment.
The other argument, that advances in modern engineering make restricted speeds unnecessary, may apply to modern vehicles; but how many of the goods vehicles on the roads are of some considerable age? We could not have a differential speed limit, whereby vehicles over ten years old must stick to the 20 m.p.h. limit. So it seems to me that if we increase this speed limit we shall be running the risk that a number of old vehicles will travel at a speed at which their brakes are not safe. For those reasons at least, I should deplore the raising of the speed limit while the great bulk of our traffic has to travel along old and narrow roads.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before the noble Earl, Lord Howe, takes

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what action he likes (for it is his Amendment), I should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount for his constructive and sympathetic approach to this problem. If I can be of any help to him—I was once the chairman of a National Joint Industrial Council very near to the industry with which this problem is connected—my services are at his disposal.
EARL HOWE: I find it difficult adequately to thank or express my appreciation to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor for the statement which he has made to us. I am sure that every noble Lord here must be as grateful to him as I am I naturally withdraw the Amendment, and I can only assure him, without the slightest hesitation, that I wish him all the best of good luck in his negotiations.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 22 and 23 agreed to.
Clause 24 [Interpretation]:
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This Amendment is consequential upon an Amendment which the Committee inserted into the Bill earlier in the Committee stage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 18, at end insert ("'dual purpose vehicle' means a motor car which—

(a) does not exceed two tons in weight unladen;

(b) has to the rear of the driver's seat roofed accommodation fitted with side windows or is constructed or adapted for the fitting of side windows;

(c) is constructed so as to be adaptable both for the carriage of passengers and for the carriage of goods;

(d) has, in that part of it which is to the rear of the driver's seat, seating, which may be collapsible, for at least two passengers sitting side by side and facing to the front or rear of the vehicle such seating being fitted with back rests (either folding or fixed) attached permanently to the vehicle;").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)

THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I agree that this is a consequential Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL HOWE: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Derwent, I beg formally to move Amendment No. 100.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 23, leave out from ("road") to end of line 24 and insert ("has the meaning
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assigned to it by section one hundred and twenty-one of the Act of 1930;").—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, will explain to me the purpose of this Amendment, because I am not clear what he is getting at. What I can tell the Committee is that the word "road" in this Bill means "any highway and any other road to which the public has access," and the word "road." as defined in the 1930 Act, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which the road passes. I can see no point in including in this Bill the structure of bridges. It includes the surface of the road passing over the bridges, but it does not include the structure of the bridges. If the noble Earl has any reasons to advance as to why we should include it, I shall be glad to consider the matter. If he has not, I shall be grateful if he will withdraw the Amendment.
EARL HOWE: In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. I will tell my noble friend what happened to it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 25 [Short title, commencement, repeals, savings and extent]:
LORD MANCROFT: This Amendment, which is purely formal, is designed to insert the words set out on the Marshalled List. Those of your Lordships who can scarcely remember the day when we were not discussing road traffic will hardly be surprised to see this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 41, at end insert ("and this Act and the Road Traffic Acts, 1930 to 1947 may be cited together as the Road Traffic Acts, 1930 to 1955.")—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule [Conditions affecting classification of vehicles]:
4.35 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in paragraph 12, to omit all words from and including "frequently" down

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to the end of the paragraph, and to insert:
"is travelling for any purpose other than that for which the journey has been arranged."
The noble Lord said: We now come to a rather important Amendment, and I think it will be advisable if I refresh the memories of the Committee about a debate that we had in your Lordships' House on the Transport Charges &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. This Amendment deals with the question of the private party contract carriage, where the vehicle can be hired on contract to do a specific private hire job, but separate fares are charged.
It was the will of Parliament in 1934 that there should be a type of public service vehicle which did not require a road service licence, was not a stage carriage or an express carriage, but could be hired by bodies, such as works canteens, religious organisations, and that class of the community, to go to specific places. These vehicles have to take all their passengers there, and if the passengers hire the coach under contract and pay a lump sum, that is an end of the matter—there need be no road service licence or application to the licensing authority. But there came about a type of contract carriage which required separate fares to be paid—for instance, a contract carriage to take village institute parties to the local theatre, or village children and mothers' meetings to local theatres and pantomimes. In such cases a separate fare was charged, and not an inclusive figure.
All went well for a time, because the term in the original Act was "special occasion": the whole thing had to be a special occasion. It so happened, however—I will not say through a draftsman's error, because there are various opinions as to whether the decision of the Divisional Court was right—that the words "special occasion" appeared in two subsections of the same section; and upon a test case being raised the Divisional Court decided that the party had to be a "special occasion" and that the function to which the party was going had also to be a special occasion. To give an illustration one could not take the village children to the local pantomime or to the pantomime in a town five miles away, because, although it was a special occasion to the children, as the
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pantomime might run for sixty nights, the occasion itself was not a special occasion. That was the decision. And it really stopped all this class of business.
I have brought up this question on many occasions, and the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, promised, when we debated it last in your Lordships' House, about last November, that if possible, and as soon as was possible, he would see that legislation was introduced to remove this anomaly. I am deeply grateful to the noble Earl for doing that. The provisions of this Bill sweep away the words "special occasion"; they open the door as widely as anybody could wish it to be opened. But the Government have fallen into precisely the same error as did their predecessors who put in the words "special occasion," because they have now put in the word "frequently." If the term "special occasion" constituted a lawyers' paradise, as it so turned out, I do not know what will happen in regard to the word "frequently." It will really be a lawyer's paradise. Because what is meant by "frequently"?
I would ask the Committee to look at paragraph 12 of the Second Schedule, which begins:
"In the case of a journey to a particular destination the passenger must not include any person who frequently"—
I will stop there a moment. There we narrow it down. It is not a vehicle or a contract carriage that is prohibited from going frequently—they can go frequently; but it is a person who must not go frequently. The paragraph goes on:
"or as a matter of routine, travels, at or about the time of day at which the journey is made, to or to the vicinity of that destination from a place from or through which the journey is made."
I seek to eliminate all words from "who" to the end and to substitute
"is travelling for any purpose than that for which the journey has been arranged".
There is no difference of opinion between Her Majesty's Government and myself. Her Majesty's Government are anxious to prevent a contract carriage from being used by people as a stage carriage. If a contract carriage is going from Little Puddlecombe to a town ten miles away, to take a party to, say, a theatre, stage passengers should not be carried. The individual fare might be

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lower, so an individual who had no intention of going to the theatre but wanted to go to the town might use the contract bus instead of the ordinary stage carriage.
It is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to rule out the person who frequently goes on the journey as a matter of routine or in the ordinary course of his business. Why not short-circuit all this by saying that the vehicle must not carry any passenger who is going for any purpose other than that for which the journey is arranged? If the journey is arranged to take a party to a theatre, a concert, a football match or something of that kind, the passengers must all be going to the entertainment, and must, in fact, go to the entertainment. That appears to be common sense, because otherwise this requirement can never be enforced. Are you to have inspectors to see whether a passenger "frequently goes" on a journey? And why should he not go frequently if he is going for the purpose for which the journey is arranged? Again, paragraph 12 excludes a passenger who
"as a matter of routine, travels, at or about the time of day at which the journey is made."
I could mention to your Lordships half a dozen cases where the route traversed might be exactly the same as that traversed by a man in his ordinary job, although he is not going to the ordinary job but for the express purpose for which that contract party has been arranged. I suggest that my Amendment is a better way of expressing what Her Majesty's Government desire to do, and I feel that I need say no more. I hope Her Majesty's Government will accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 33, leave out from the word ("who") to end of line 36 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, with his usual courtesy, earlier to-day gave me notice of the point that was troubling him in this matter, and the only reason why I am taking up the time of your Lordships' House is that I did try, consequent upon that, to make such legal researches as I could into this point in order to put them before noble Lords. The provision in the Schedule which the noble Lord seeks to amend is not a new
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statutory effort. It is taken verbatim from Section 25, subsection (1), paragraph (e) of the Road Traffic Act, 1934:
"In the case of a journey to a particular destination the passengers must not include any person who frequently, or as a matter of routine, travels, at or about the time of day at which the journey is made, to that destination from a place from or through which the journey is made;"
I thought it might help the noble Lord if I not only gave him the ancestry of the provision but also inquired whether it had occasioned much legal discussion in the intervening years. So far as I can gather, the term "frequently" has only once come up in the courts. That was in the case which is very well known to the noble Lord, because he has more than once referred to it, Sidery v. Evans and Peters. It was the object of the exercise to take people to the home matches of the Tottenham Hotspurs Football Club, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hewart, in considering the matter, used these words:
"Here it is apparent, on the facts as found, that the passengers carried did include persons who frequently travelled, at or about the time of day at which the journey was made, to the destination from a place from which the journey was made. Indeed, it is manifest that there was a systematic travelling by persons who were the same individuals, who travelled on various occasions when the opportunity was offered of witnessing a match in which the particular football team were expected to take part. The justices have stated that, in their opinion, the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, section 25 (1) were complied with, and they have purported to find as a fact in the course of their expression of opinion: 'that, having regard to the lapse of time between the dates upon which the said vehicles were used, the passengers did not include any person who frequently or as a matter of routine travelled on the vehicles.' With all due respect to these justices, that conclusion seems to me to be at variance with the facts as found. The recurrence of the occasion upon which the same passengers made the same journey was a recurrence governed by the number of occasions on which these matches were played, and, in fact, the occasions recurred whenever the matches recurred. There was as high a degree of repetition or frequency as the circumstances could possibly permit."
This, the only judicial expression I could find on the matter, shows that what is connoted by the Act over the twenty-one years that it has been in operation is a high degree of frequency and regularity. I thought the noble Lord might find it helpful if I informed him of that history, because it is difficult to know whether or not it has attracted difficulty.

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The second point I want to put to the noble Lord is that without these words there would be great difficulty in making the provision effective. The noble Lord has suggested an alternative which I feel requires some consideration. I have naturally looked at his suggestion sympathetically, as I look at every potential improvement to the Statute Book; but it would strike at the person who has joined the party for some purpose other than the party. There are two difficulties (I know that the noble Lord has them in mind) as to the present provision of the Act. The first is: can you enforce it? The second is: when you have enforced it, have you really helped your general purpose? The difficulty of enforcing it is that, of course, a person who may have some other intention in mind may still go to the point near the football match or the theatre, or whatever it is that the party is arranged for; and, secondly, assuming that someone does join for a different purpose on one occasion, is that really a grave mischief? As the noble Lord is well aware, the person who uses a special outing as a public vehicle service is really making the special outing vehicle do the work that a service ought to do.
In the last hour since the noble Lord spoke to me I have considered his point. I do not think his Amendment would quite do what is wanted, and I do not think that the original is as bad as the noble Lord thought. I hope that I may have slightly changed his view by giving him the history of the wording of the original section. Therefore, with the greatest respect, I suggest that he has another think about this. I will certainly do the same, and if anything better can be suggested to meet the mischief we both want to prevent, I shall be pleased to consider it at the next stage of the Bill. I apologise for taking up so much of your Lordships' time, but I think it only right, when a point is as important as this point is, and especially as the noble Lord has taken so much trouble, to find out the facts and to do what one can to help him.
4.53 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount. There is no need for him to apologise, for he certainly has not wasted any time—indeed, I think we have saved
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hours and hours, even days of time in the future, and great inconvenience to thousands of people in the rural areas. I should like the noble and learned Viscount to take this fact into consideration. There was also in the Statute the requirement that it had to be "a special occasion." Section 61 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, which was amended by Section 24 of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, says this:
"Provided that a motor vehicle adapted to carry less than eight passengers shall not be deemed to be a stage carriage or an express carriage by reason only that on occasions of race meetings, public gatherings and other like special occasions it is used to carry passengers at separate fares."
Later, the section says:
"Provided that a vehicle used on a special occasion for the conveyance of a private party shall not be deemed to be a vehicle carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares by reason only that the members of the party have made separate payments which cover their conveyance by that vehicle on that occasion."
Now as to "special occasion." The legal battles were fought upon the interpretation of "special occasion." Those words have now been taken out, and legal battles in the future will be fought upon the word "frequently." With great respect to the noble and learned Viscount, he has given the former Lord Chief Justice's dictum upon "frequently," but he has not cleared up the problem of what is "frequently." Who is going to decide what is "frequently"? I know that it would be possible to evade the law under my Amendment, I cannot think of an Amendment which would not permit evasion of the law to some degree. But I would say that my Amendment is better than the Government's wording.
Take the case of a football match—the noble and learned Viscount has used that as an illustration. Let us take the journey, say, from the village of Hartley Wintney to Reading. The bus goes to every home match that the Reading football club plays. Every other week, a contract carriage goes there, and separate fares are charged. I book a seat, let us say. Have I got to state whether I have been "frequently" before? Are they going to keep a register of the persons who travel? If they do, and if I am a very keen football fan, then the first time I go my name is "Brown" and the second time my name is "Jones." I can go on and on. How are you going to

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stop that sort of thing? But I do not believe that the danger of the abuse is very great. If the Government find that the contract carriage business is swelling and swelling by reason of this provision, then it will be necessary to bring in another method.
The Thesiger Report suggested that contract carriages should be licensed. The Government did not agree with that proposal. I have no quarrel with it. But once having said that you can have contract carriages, I do not know how you are going to interpret the word "frequently." Until we have some case law, what are contract carriage operators to do? When this Bill becomes the law, who is going to say whether a journey is made "frequently" or not? And why should the journey not be made frequently, if it is for a specific purpose. I have mentioned the abuse that could occur if a man says he is going to a football match when, in fact, he is not. That abuse is just as possible under the wording of the Bill as under my Amendment. So I hope that the noble and learned Viscount will have another look at this point.
I am only trying to prevent litigation. If the noble and learned Viscount will consult his colleagues I think he will find they will confirm that the "special occasion" litigation completely put an end to private party work. It cost the provincial theatres thousands and thousands of pounds. The run of pantomimes had to be cut short by weeks. Unemployment was caused in the theatrical profession, because in the provinces they relied upon this private party work. I am even told that Covent Garden to-day has to rely mainly upon private party work, from musical and dramatic societies, to bring the bulk of their patrons to that theatre. This is a real danger. When the Divisional Court ruled that a show of that kind was not a "special occasion," that ended private party work. Are we now to go into all this trouble with regard to the legal interpretation of "frequently"? I will not press this Amendment this afternoon, because the noble and learned Viscount has been so courteous and, unfortunately, so persuasive. I will therefore withdraw my Amendment. If he will give consideration to this matter—and I know he will—I am sure he will do it
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objectively. Perhaps we can have discussions about this matter after he has made some researches between now and the next stage.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will most certainly give this matter consideration, as the noble Lord has asked me to do.
LORD WINSTER: May I say one word before the Amendment is withdrawn? I should like to advance one reason why I think the wording of my noble friend's Amendment is much preferable to the words he seeks to remove. I frequently make the journey from my home to Westminster in order to attend to my duties in your Lordships' House. If the local anglers' club, of which I am a vice-president, arranged a coach outing to Westminster to see the Houses of Parliament, possibly they might invite me to accompany them. If I did so, then under the words in the Second Schedule I should be committing an offence. Under the words proposed by my noble friend I should not be guilty. That is the only way I can read the effect of paragraph 12 of the Second Schedule. I should be committing an offence because I should be making with the anglers' club in their coach a journey which I frequently make for the purpose of attending your Lordships' House.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in paragraph 13, to add to subparagraph (a):
"at or in a place frequented by persons who are members of the organisation or body upon whose behalf the journey is being arranged or."
The noble Lord said: May I have your Lordships' permission to deal with Amendments Nos. 103 and 104 together? Another ridiculous aspect of the legal interpretation of past legislation is to be found in the Government's attempt in the 1934 Act to overcome the difficulty of special occasions and the difficulty of how these special trips should be advertised. They thought they had got rid of the special occasion and they had tightened up the provision about advertising so as to make certain that it was not of a public character. Again the Divisional Court upset the Ministerial apple-cart by tightening up advertising so much that if the village Labour Club or any

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other club put a notice in a shop saying that they were going to Brighton for the day, that was advertising. The Government have again opened the door for special occasions, and are trying to close it again with restriction on advertising. I suggest to them that they have done it in rather a peculiar way.
Part V, paragraph 13 (a) of the Schedule refers to
"a notice displayed or announcement made at or in any place of worship in the manner in which notices or announcements for the information of persons attending that place of worship are normally displayed or made,"
Previously, it is laid down that
"the journey must be made without previous advertisement to the public of the arrangements thereof."
It is a laudable desire to help people who go to places of worship. But are we going to deny to all the non-sectarian bodies the right to display notices of their outings? Are we going to become denominational? Are the Jews, who have not a synagogue in every village as the Anglicans have, a parish church, to be denied the opportunity of knowing that somebody connected with an organisation in which they are interested is going to have a private party somewhere? Let me take one of the best movements in this country, which all noble Lords will applaud—the Women's Institutes. They are non-sectarian and will not hold a meeting in a denominational hall if they can possibly help it. Why cannot they be brought into this? I cannot understand it at all. A notice saying that the church choir are going to Brighton for the day can be pinned up in the vestry and the vicar can stand up in the pulpit and announce it, but one cannot put up a notice in a "pub" to say that the local football team or the local branch of the British Legion are going to Brighton for the day. Is this not really carrying things a little too far? What about works canteens? Surely one can put up a notice in a works canteen to say that the works' social club is having an outing, that the coaches are going to start at such-and-such a time and that tickets are available from the secretary. Surely we are not going to say that the only place where a notice can be put up is in a church. That is most peculiar. I really do not know why that provision has been included in the Bill. Perhaps originally, years and years ago, the idea of coach trips started with church outings; but we have moved some way since then.
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What I want to do by this Amendment is to add to the end of paragraph (a)
"at or in a place frequented by persons who are members of the organisation or body upon whose behalf the journey is being arranged or"
Paragraph (b) goes on to refer to
"a notice displayed in any periodical published for the information of persons who attend a particular place of worship or a place of worship in a particular place, and circulating wholly or mainly among persons who attend or might reasonably be expected to attend there."
In other words, a notice can be put in the parish magazine, but a notice cannot be put in the local bulletin of the Women's Institute or the house journal of a works' social club. Why this strict religious line, I fail to understand. So I have put down another Amendment, which reads:
"(c) a notice displayed in any periodical published for the information of, and circulated wholly or mainly among persons who are, members of the organisation or body upon whose behalf the journey is being arranged."
I hope the Government will accept these two Amendments, to conform with the wishes of everybody who wants to see this regulated in a proper manner but does not want to see the denominational line drawn by places of worship. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 45, after second ("or") insert ("at or in a place frequented by persons who are members of the organisation or body upon whose behalf the journey is being arranged or").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
5.10 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: I should like to support this Amendment and I shall be extremely interested to see on what grounds the Government can possibly resist it. I have mentioned my local angling club. With the exception of the traditional untruths of people who follow their recreation, they are a very respectable body of men, most of whom, as I happen to know, are churchgoers. But they regularly hire coaches in order to go to Seaford or Isfield, or somewhere where there is water, and they can fish. They have a notice board in the village where they put up the notice of this outing and where the meet is going to be. Under the provisions of this Schedule, they are committing an offence by putting up this notice on their notice board, as they have done for many years now. Why on earth

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should they be forbidden to put up a notice about their quite innocent angling expedition, when those concerned with a church outing may benefit from a similar notice being put in their church or chapel? I will listen to what is said, of course, but at the moment I cannot see rhyme or reason in the provisions laid down in the Schedule, and I shall be most interested to hear if the Government feel able to resist the Amendment.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is in general agreement with what we intend here—that is to say, that we do not want contract carriage to be very wide—and that he thinks it goes as wide as can be reasonably expected. I am also glad that he is ready to recognise that the backbone of carriage must be the stage carriage, the road service vehicle licensed in the ordinary way. However, I must say that I think the noble Lord has seriously misinterpreted this clause. What we have said is this. We have said that there must be no previous advertisement to the public. That means to say that anything in a social club canteen, which is not open to the public, is not public advertisement. Lord Winster's angling club is not public, because it is open only to the members; therefore, there is no need for anxiety in that matter; the anglers can do exactly as they always have done.
We have made this provision fairly rigid in excluding all public advertisement, but there is one place which, by its nature, is always public, and that is a place of worship. That is why we have singled that out, not on any denominational grounds. Any church is open; anyone can walk into it—in that sense, it is a public place. If we left the law as it stands now, any statement made to the parishioners from the pulpit would be advertisement to the public, in the sense in which it is used in paragraph 9 of Part IV. That is the only reason why we have put in that provision. And as an extension of that, we have deliberately included the parish magazine. But it should be noted that it must be a magazine which circulates only in a certain area, to people who worship in a given place. That means that such publications as the Church Times or the Catholic Herald, or anything which extended over a further area, would be excluded. For
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that reason, I think the wording in the Bill is quite satisfactory.
On the other hand, I feel that the Amendment goes a very long way indeed. The noble Lord suggests allowing advertisements in any place "frequented by persons who are members of an organisation or body"—which I suppose means that anything like a dance hall, a darts' club or a local public-house would be included. We have no intention of extending it as wide as that, because we think it would be wrong to do so. I feel that the anxiety of the noble Lord is quite unreal, and that the Bill as printed really meets what he has in mind.
LORD ASHTON OF HYDE: What would be the situation as regards the village notice board? In our village we have one which is used entirely for the purposes of putting out notices of this sort. Would that be illegal?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I should say that it would probably not fall within the terms of contract carriage. As a matter of fact, I do not think it does now, so there is nothing new about it. It must necessarily depend on what is advertisement to the public. I really should not like to carry it further than that. It is just a matter of fact.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Earl, because he has answered me 75 per cent. But the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, has made the point. I am most anxious, because in the rural areas I suppose that the Women's Institute is one of the finest possible movements. Here we have a Bill which says that if they put a little notice on the village notice board, or in the village post office, they are committing an illegal act. May I revert for a moment to my original Amendment and put this point to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor? If he would accept my Amendment that no one could travel with that coach, with that party, for any purpose other than that for which the party was being arranged, the organisers could advertise the outing in the News of the World, and it would not matter in the least. No matter who applied, you could take in that party only those for whom the party was arranged.
Perhaps the noble Earl can think of a way of tightening up my original Amendment, because I am at one with him in not

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wanting to see the contract carriage used to undermine the stage carriage. That is why I should have preferred it if the Government had accepted the recommendation of the Thesiger Committee, that these contract carriages should be the subject of licence through the licensing authority, because that would rule out the giving of any licence for a contract carriage where there were reasonable stage carriage facilities. I hope the noble Earl will look at this matter again, because I should not like it to go out that the Government are trying to be niggardly about this and to rule out the very people I want to encourage. I do not want the people encouraged to go from town to town where there is a good stage carriage. I want this facility to be available to the villages in the rural areas where there is no stage carriage service. I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, will rule out competition with stage carriage and, most of all, illegal competition. If he can give me an assurance that he will look at this point again in the light of those observations, and possibly reframe my first Amendment to say that the party must not contain anybody other than members of the organisation, then the advertisement aspect does not matter. If the noble Earl will give me that assurance—
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Certainly.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Then I will withdraw this Amendment, and I will not move the next.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Second Schedule agreed to.
Third Schedule [Minor and consequential Amendments]:
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, after paragraph 2 to insert:
"3. In subsection (1) of section one of the Act of 1930 there shall be inserted at the end of the proviso the following paragraph:
'(c) the provisions of this Part of this Act and the provisions of Part II of this Act relating to insurance against third-party risks shall not apply to pedestrian controlled mechanically propelled grass cutters and the provisions of any other Act or of any order, statutory instrument or regulation relating to excise duties thereon, licensing, registration and compulsory third-party insurance thereof and to driving licences and driving tests in connection therewith shall no longer apply except that it shall be an offence for any person under sixteen years of age to drive
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or control on a road, and for any person to cause or permit a person under sixteen years of age to drive or control on a road any pedestrian controlled mechanically propelled grass cutter.'"
The noble Lord said: I hope the noble Lord who has looked at this Amendment does not think I have put it down as an amusing interlude. It is one of those amusing anomalies which arise in an Act of this description, and I will describe it to your Lordships shortly. This is what I want to overcome. If any of your Lordships or anyone else is a proud possessor of a house which has a grass verge outside which does not belong to you but to the local authority, and in the interests of rural amenity you wish to cut the grass to keep it neat and tidy, and you take your little fourteen-inch or twelve-inch motor mower out of your front gate and try to cut the grass, then this is what you have to do. First, you must have an excise licence, and that is going to cost you £5. Then you must have a driving licence; and because you must have a driving licence you must have a third party insurance, and must undergo a driving test—on what, I do not know. I have searched to find out, and I suppose it is on a motor car. Then you must have an L-plate until you have passed the test. Where you hang the L-plate on the motor mower I do not know.
That is my interpretation of the law as it stands to-day. I have sought in this Amendment to remove those things from the scope of the Road Traffic Act. I have not had any success yet—we are getting to the end of this Bill—and I do not think I am going to be told that this is a perfect piece of Parliamentary draftsmanship. In any case, if the noble Lord will admit the principle and that I am right in what I have described, and he can think of something better, I will accept it. But that is the law as it stands to-day, and I think it should be cleared up. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 22, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD MANCROFT: The extraordinary thing about the noble Lord's explanation of the law on this matter is that it happens to be approximately correct. I think we shall have to do something to meet him on this point. I should like to congratulate him on

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having once again put his finger on the sort of anomaly which nobody else could possibly have dreamt of. It is obviously ridiculous that the motor mower should be subject to the same restrictions and inhibitions as his Rolls Royce motor car. The trouble is that there are other kinds of vehicle today to which this would equally apply—rollers and all sorts of Emmett-like appliances which might come under the same category—and I think it would be incongruous if we did not deal with all of them at once. I should, therefore, like to meet the noble Lord's point.
I hope he will not mind my saying that he goes a little too far in one respect. He has made a clean sweep here of all the existing legal requirements, including reckless and careless driving. I wonder whether that would not be going a little far in one respect. I am not thinking only of motor mowers so much as similar agricultural implements which have quite nasty knives and things attached which, if stupidly handled on the highway, might be a serious danger to children playing in the neighbourhood. I should not like to go so far as that. If the noble Lord does not believe that it is likely to happen, I would refer him to H. E. Bate-man's "Motor mower that run amok," and he will see what can happen. I believe it might be necessary to waive the driving test and licence in this respect, and also registration, third party insurance, excise duty, and so on, provided the machine is for grass cutting only and its use is limited to a very small mileage on the road in a week. On those grounds, I will ask the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment, and I will see whether we can produce an Amendment doing away with the many anomalies but retaining necessary provisions such as those relating to dangerous driving. I will look at the question of registration, insurance and so on, and also the problems raised by analogous vehicles. If that is agreeable to the noble Lord, I will try and find something which will meet his approval.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Lord. I felt certain that my overwhelming logic would appeal to him. There is one thing he has omitted to notice, and that is that my Amendment confines itself to pedestrian-controlled, mechanically propelled grass cutters. It has nothing to do with rollers
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or anything like that. I certainly do not want it to embrace huge juggernauts tearing across the road. I want it to cover the real cases I have cited. With my thanks to the noble Lord, and with your Lordships' permission, I will withdraw the Amendment and wait with pleasure to see what the noble Lord suggests on the Report stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.27 p.m.
LORD WALERAN LORD WALERAN moved to insert after paragraph 4:
"6. In section twenty-one of the Act of 1930 (which deals with restrictions on prosecutions) there shall be inserted after the word 'driving' where it appears for the second time the words 'or for an offence under sections forty-nine and fifty of this Act'."
The noble Lord said: I want to see that any person who has the misfortune to be prosecuted under Sections 49 and 50 of the 1930 Act has the same safeguards as he has at the present time if he is prosecuted under Sections 10, 11 and 12. Section 21 of the 1930 Act provides that a person may not be prosecuted for reckless driving, driving carelessly or exceeding the speed limit unless he is warned at the time that the question of prosecution will be considered, or served with a summons or notice of intended prosecution within fourteen days of the alleged offence. Now, so far as I know, this provision has worked very well for the last twenty-five years. There may be one or two isolated cases where the police say it has been a handicap to them, but I have not heard of any. I think it is a necessary safeguard for a defendant, because without it three or four months may elapse before he is made aware of the allegations against him.
Section 49 of the Act deals with crossing, unwittingly, a traffic light or a policeman's signal. Section 50, which is more widely drawn, deals with the question of leaving a motor car where it may cause a dangerous obstruction. I say that it is just as reasonable to warn a man that he may be prosecuted for unwittingly passing a policeman's hand, or for having left his car where it may cause dangerous obstruction, because, after all, it is quite possible that he left it at a time when there was no danger whatsoever. He may come back a little later and it may be causing a danger because the circumstances may have altered. It is not an

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uncommon thing for a man to be prosecuted some four or five months after, when he cannot remember the exact circumstances, and I think that is most unfair to him. I suggest that this is a very reasonable Amendment, and lines up Sections 49 and 50 with the previous sections to which I have referred. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 25, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Waleran.)
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I think your Lordships will agree that my noble friend, Lord Waleran, has made out a good case in this respect, and without further ado I will say that we will be prepared to concede, in principle, the point he has made. I would add only this, which I think strengthens his hand: as in this Bill we are increasing the penalties for a number of offences, it seems only reasonable that we should give the motorist further protection against the possibility of being prosecuted after he has forgotten the circumstances. If the noble Lord will allow me to suggest that he should withdraw the Amendment, so that we can tidy up the drafting, I can give him that assurance.
LORD WALERAN: I thank my noble friend very much; and, with that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.33 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, after paragraph 8 to insert:
"9. In section sixteen of the London Passenger Transport Act, 1933 (which relates to the restriction on carriage of road passengers on certain journeys in special area) there shall be inserted at the end of the proviso to subsection (1) the following paragraph:—
'(d) nothing in this section shall apply to vehicles in the ownership of schools used for the conveyance of pupils to and from their homes and school.'"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is the last Amendment which I shall inflict upon your Lordships' House. As the Government, these last three or four days, have been so conciliatory and helpful, I am hoping that I can have one last success, because by this Amendment I seek again to remove an anomaly which I do not think the Government intend should remain. It is to try and do something for the safety of small children.
In London there are a number of these small privately owned kindergarten schools where the little toddlers go before they start on their serious educational journey through life. It is the desire of a number of proprietors of these small schools, and certainly of the parents, that these small children of a very tender age should be collected at their homes and brought to school and then taken back to their homes after school, so that they do not have to be met and transported under the care of their parents, and do not have to withstand the perils of the streets of London and of getting on or off public service vehicles.
Again by a decision of the Divisional Court, followed by a ruling by the licensing authority, anyone who uses a motor vehicle carrying over seven passengers—that is over the limit of a private motor car—is really operating a stage carriage. The legal decision in this case was that although the motor vehicle concerned was transporting scholars and no charge was made, since all the costs were met out of the school fees, which were adjusted to cover the cost, the service amounted to a stage carriage because, in reality, separate fares were being charged. I do not agree with that view, but that is not the burden of my complaint, although it does mean that any one of these school proprietors who requires to run this service for the little children must have a public service licence and must have surveillance by the police, and so on, in exactly the same way as a stage carriage owner.
I am not objecting to that; I do not want to go so far as to get the Government to alter that particular law. But here is the problem. Under Section 16 of the London Passenger Transport Act, 1933, nobody can run a vehicle of this description; in other words, he cannot operate an express or stage carriage (which the law says this motor car is), without the permission of London Transport. It has come to my knowledge that although a number of applications have been made to London Transport for permission to operate these motor cars to take the kiddies from school to home and from home to school, in every case permission has been refused—on the grounds. I am told, that they should use public transport. That is the very thing I want to stop them from having to do. I do not think it is right to subject

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children of very tender years, toddling along in their first essay into school life, to crossing busy London streets and to getting on and off buses and all those dangers. I do not think my Amendment is open to abuse. If it is, then seal it up; but I urge the Government to do something. Do let us try to do something to cut down the appalling accidents, the loss of life and personal injury to small children on the streets of London. If we can do something in this matter, I am sure your Lordships' good offices will be well rewarded. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 45, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment is, of course, an oblique attack on the monopoly of London Transport Executive. What I find difficult, however, is the fact that we do not know of any school which owns buses of the type the noble Lord describes.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: They are not buses; they are ordinary cars. It is the utility and dual purpose vehicle I am talking about.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord has in mind cars of under eight passengers?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Yes, seven or eight passengers.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: So far as I am informed, the rule which the London Transport Executive have in this matter is that they invariably grant consent where the children are under eight years of age. I go on to say this. Where they are over eight years of age, the London Transport Executive do not normally grant consent where their own services are adequate. I have made inquiries, and so far as we know no complaint has been made, either to the L.T.E. or the Metropolitan Licensing Authority. In those circumstances, I find it hard to say that there is a case here for some change in the existing law which would effect what the noble Lord has in mind. I will certainly make it a point to look into. If the noble Lord will give me evidence of people who are dissatisfied, I shall be only too glad to look into it; but I would point out to him that if he wants to get what I take to be a road service licence—is not that what the noble Lord wants?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I do not mind that.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: He would still have to appear before the licensing authority, and the London Transport Executive would be able to object.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I do not object to that.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: And, if his reasons were not sound, he would still not get the licence.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Yes.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My information is substantially different from that of the noble Lord. If he will give me his information. I will look into it.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Earl. My information is certainly directly contrary to his. There must be some misunderstanding. I do not want to have freedom from the Road Traffic Act. I want to stop abuse. I want people to have to go to the licensing authority to make their case. I do not want there to be any abuse. But my information is clear: that numerous applications have been made, and there is no one who can tell me that he has ever been granted permission by London Transport Executive. However, I will see that the noble Earl is given all the evidence available. I thank him very much for his promise to do something if the position is as I have stated it to be. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Third Schedule agreed to.
Fourth Schedule [Enactments repealed]:
LORD MANCROFT: I am certain that your Lordships will hear with great pleasure that the last Amendment on our list is purely formal. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 39, column 3, leave out ("section") and insert ("sections twenty-four and").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.
House adjourned at sixteen minutes before six o'clock.