Sitting of 28 February 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Mustard Gas
    Mr. Haleasked the Minister of Supply the estimated production of mustard gas in the United Kingdom for the year 1954; how many storage depots exist; and whether production is being maintained at an adequate rate.
    The Minister of Supply (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): It would not be in the public interest to disclose the information for which the hon. Member asks.
    Mr. Hale: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that if the information has not been disclosed, the mustard gas has, and that it has been causing some alarm to the people of Cambridgeshire rather than the people of Siberia; and in those circumstances does not he think that those people who have sustained injury should have some explanation giving the reason?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think I understand the incident to which the hon. Member has referred. He really should address Questions about that to the Secretary of State for Air.

    Helicopters (Noise)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Supply whether, in view of the importance of helicopters for inter-city travel, he will make a statement giving details of experiments taking place and progress made in those designed to reduce the noise from helicopter engines.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Important work is being done in this field, in conjunction with the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation and the aircraft and aero-engine firms
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    concerned. We were considerably encouraged by the demonstration of one form of silencer at the South Bank on 24th January. The problems to be surmounted are, however, great. I propose, with permission, to circulate in the Official Report a more detailed statement of the work in hand.
    Mr. Dodds: While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that statement, may I ask him whether he will bear in mind that even if it is possible to apply silencers and do away with any noise, there will be some critics who will complain about the uncanny silence of the helicopter?
    Following is the statement:
    The causes of the noise generated by helicopters are various, but the two most important are the rotor system and the power generating system. The extent to which we can expect to reduce the noise caused by the rotor system is marginal and our main aim is to find ways of reducing engine noise to the same level as the rotor noise. Care is necessary, however, in designing methods for silencing engines not so to add to the weight of the aircraft and reduce the engine power as to make the helicopter uneconomical to operate.
    The demonstration of a silencer on an S.55 helicopter on 24th January showed that the noise of its particular piston engine can be reduced considerably so that, for instance, at 250 feet the residual noise level is about the same as the background noise level in a busy street. The noise is naturally greater during take-off and touch-down but does not seem objectionable at a reasonable distance. Further development is required to evolve a lighter installation.
    Similar work is being done by the Bristol Aeroplane Company directed to reducing the noise of the Bristol 173 twin rotor helicopter. Preliminary results suggest that a comparable reduction in noise will be obtained and a lighter installation will be possible.
    Propulsion by ducting compressed air through rotor blades and out of the blade tips may offer a considerable reduction of noise. Gas turbine engines with direct drive to the rotor will call for new methods of noise reduction when the aircraft concerned have flown and the level of noise can be assessed. Work done on the silencing of jet turbine engine exhausts by modifying their shapes will, it is hoped, be useful in helicopters which incorporate jet units at the rotor tips.
    All possibilities will be explored as the helicopters are developed. Research into the reduction of jet engine noise generally by aero-engine manufacturers, by the College of Aeronautics and by Southampton University, details of which were given to the House in a statement by my predecessor on 28th June, 1954, will also contribute.

    New Rifle
    Mr. Wyattasked the Minister of Supply to what extent the new rifle for use in the British Forces will be manufactured in Britain on exactly the same pattern as the Belgian Fabrique Nationale rifle; and whether the system of continental or British measurements will be used in its manufacture.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Rifles produced in the United Kingdom will be made on the same pattern as the Belgian rifle. They will be manufactured to inch drawings, for the reasons stated by the then Minister of Supply on 7th May, 1954.
    Mr. Wyatt: Since they are to be manufactured on inch drawings and not on metric drawings, is not it clear that the parts will not be interchangeable with the Belgian rifle still manufactured in Belgium, and does not this do away with much of the argument in favour of standardisation advanced a year ago by the Government?
    Mr. Lloyd: I understand that many of the parts will be interchangeable.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is not it clear that not all of them will be interchangeable and that we were told that the great advantage was that they would all be interchangeable?
    Mr. Lloyd: The argument about standardisation was always addressed to standardisation with Canada and the Commonwealth countries.
    Mr. Strachey: Will the Minister explain why this further alteration and modification was effected, because it has undoubtedly caused great delay, and if it enables standardisation in one direction it would clearly prevent it in another? It seems inexplicable.
    Mr. Lloyd: If the right hon. Gentleman will look again at the statement of 7th May, he will see the reasons fully set out.
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of Supply how many Belgian Fabrique Nationale rifles have been procured; and how many have been ordered from Belgium.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: In all, 14,400 of these rifles have been ordered and 4,600 delivered.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say why, if the Belgians are not having to modify their rifle, we are having to modify ours? If the need for this new rifle is so urgent, as was stated over a year ago, why have we not gone ahead with orders there instead of playing about in this country as we have done?
    Mr. Lloyd: We thought it was better to wait until troop trials had taken place.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman read the Government's White Paper on defence? If he has, having regard to its contents, will he tell us what these rifles are likely to be use for?
    Mr. Lloyd: I hope the hon. Member has read the White Paper with the same attention as I have. Obviously our Armed Forces have to be armed with some conventional weapons.
    Mr. Strachey: Can the Minister tell us plainly now why the troop trials he has just mentioned were not undertaken immediately this Government came into office, why they have not yet been undertaken, and why production could not have been begun immediately after those troop trials, which should have taken place three years ago?
    Mr. Lloyd: The right hon. Member should put down a Question to the Secretary of State for War regarding the timing of troop trials.
    Mr. Callaghan: Has not the real trouble been that the previous Minister was so busy denationalising steel that he shilly-shallied and hesitated in taking decisions for over three years both about rifles and aircraft? Is not the best thing that has happened to the Ministry of Supply since 1951 that the Minister has left it?

    Bomber and Fighter Aircraft
    Mr. Wyattasked the Minister of Supply the nature and number of the modifications intended to extend the performance beyond that originally conceived which have been made to the Swift fighter, the Hunter fighter, the Valiant bomber, the Victor bomber, and the Vulcan bomber, respectively, since October, 1951.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: With regard to the V bombers, a number of modifications has been introduced since October, 1951, designed to extend their performance beyond that originally conceived. None of these has delayed production. It would certainly not be in the public interest to disclose their nature. With regard to the Hunter and Swift, there have been no such modifications of any significance since October, 1951.
    Mr. Wyatt: How can the Minister say that if modifications are introduced to extend the performance beyond that originally intended that does not cause any delay in production, because obviously it must; and is not he aware that the firm building the Hunter has built a special workshop to deal with the modifications sent through by his Ministry?
    Mr. Lloyd: With regard to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, the modifications in the case of the V bombers have been introduced at such a stage of the production process that they have not delayed production. In reply to the second part, I repeat that no modifications of any significance have been introduced for the Hunter and the Swift to extend their performance beyond that originally conceived. That does not mean that there have not had to be modifications, both for safety reasons and in order to bring up their performance to that originally conceived.
    Mr. Beswick: Was not the Minister's first answer completely misleading, and was there not a major modification after October, 1951, to the dive brakes, which was decided upon after many of the aircraft had been produced? Why was it that the modification was delayed until so many of these aircraft were standing on the aerodrome?
    Mr. Lloyd: My answer was not misleading. I was asked whether there had been any modifications intended to extend the performance beyond that originally conceived. It was that Question which I answered. If the hon. Gentleman wants to put down another Question on another point, I will answer it.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is it not clear that the Hunter had a number of modifications made to enable it to fire with four guns instead of two? Was that not intended
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    to extend its performance beyond that originally conceived?
    Mr. Lloyd: The date I gave was October, 1951. The decision about the four Aden guns was taken before October, 1951.
    Mr. Wyattasked the Minister of Supply when it was first realised by his Department that the Swift fighter Marks 1 to 3 would never be able to fulfil the rôle for which they were required; and what has been the total expenditure on the Swift in research, development, and purchase of aeroplanes for delivery to the Royal Air Force.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: It was decided earlier this month that these Marks could not be brought to a standard acceptable for operational use by the Royal Air Force. Expenditure to date on research, development and production on all Marks of the Swift totals about£20 million.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is it not clear that there has been an appalling waste of money by the Government on the Swift—£20 million? Is it not also clear that an efficiently conducted Ministry would have realised much longer ago than one month that these Marks would not have come up to the standard required of them, and that an efficient Ministry would have realised that two years ago?
    Mr. Lloyd: As to the amount of money spent on the Swift project, the Swift was ordered off the drawing board by the previous Administration—a calculated risk which, in the circumstances, I think they were right to take. As to the question whether the three Marks concerned should have been abandoned earlier, I think that is a matter we can easily debate later this week.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that a very large part of the£20 million spent was usefully expended in that it has led to considerable technical and scientific advances in aviation generally, whereas no part of the£30 million spent on groundnuts did anyone any good at all?
    Mr. Wigg: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman be kind enough to tell us, as difficulties have been experienced with the Swift, how it comes about that spokesmen on behalf of the Government have promised in, I believe, 1952 and

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    1953, that they would be in squadron use? Would the Minister explain the reasons why those promises were given?
    Mr. Lloyd: Certainly; because it was hoped up to a recent date that improvements would be made. The first representative Mark 4 did not fly until May, 1953.
    Mr. G. R. Strauss: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure us that during the coming debates he will give us a full explanation why these quite intolerable delays have taken place in these aircraft? Will he give us a full explanation?
    Mr. Wyatt: An honest one—
    Hon. Members: Oh.
    Mr. Lloyd: Certainly.
    Mr. Wiggasked the Minister of Supply when super-priority for fighter aircraft which he announced on 5th March, 1952, was extended to bombers; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Wigg: On a point of order. May I draw attention to the fact that originally this Question was put to the Prime Minister and, without my consent, it has been transferred to the Minister of Supply? It therefore needs to be amended to agree with the facts and ought to read "which the Prime Minister announced on 5th March, 1952" and not the Minister of Supply.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I am grateful to the hon. Member for his correction. The super-priority scheme has included Canberra and Valiant bombers from its inception and was extended to the Victor and Vulcan in December, 1952.
    Mr. Wigg: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that he has made a very grave statement? The Prime Minister informed the House that super-priority was being given to fighter aircraft. If the Minister will look at Hansard for 5th March, 1952, he will find that statement and, at no time from that date onwards, has any statement been made that super-priority was being extended to bombers, although there was an obscure reference by the Secretary of State for Air in the House of Lords in April, 1952.
    Mr. Lloyd: In his statement, the Prime Minister was dealing with the fighter defences of this country. With regard to the question of super-priority to bombers, the hon. Member is perfectly correct; the Secretary of State did state that fact in another place on 3rdApril, 1952.

    Aircraft Development and Production (Expenditure)
    Mr. Edelmanasked the Minister of Supply the total sums paid through his Department to aircraft companies for the last three years for which figures are available, in the form of payments against development and production contracts, respectively.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The expenditure on the production of airframes and aeroengines and spares therefor, in the three years from April, 1951, to March, 1954, was£84 million,£1295 million and£161 million, respectively. It is not the practice to give details of expenditure on research and development.
    Mr. Edelman: Is it not the case that there are vast subsidies of public money concealed in these figures? Is it not time there was a public inquiry into this enormous expenditure for so little return?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not believe the hon. Member is right in the last part of his supplementary question. As to concealed subsidies, the answer I have given deals with the Question which was asked.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does it include the cost of bombers at£400,000 each which are now obsolete?
    Mr. Lloyd: It includes the cost of all aero-engines, airframes and spares in the relevant years.
    Mr. Beswick: Does the figure include the cost of aero-engines, airframes and spares which have been delivered?
    Mr. Lloyd: Yes, Sir, the production.
    Mr. Beswick: The actually delivered article?
    Mr. Lloyd: No, Sir, there are certain sums paid on account, but I should like to see the figures to see whether there is any difference between them.
    Mr. Callaghan: No rifles and no aircraft.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Dentists (Recruitment)
    Mr. Pageasked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to stem the decline in recruitment of dentists for the National Health Service.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Iain Macleod): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Wythenshawe (Mrs. Hill) on 6th December. I am not yet quite ready to announce the full membership of the Committee, but Sir Arnold McNair has consented to act as Chairman.
    Mr. Page: Will my right hon. Friend give further consideration to the question whether there is adequate assistance to dental students in the purchase of dental equipment? Do I understand that it costs£125 and that this might be a deterrent to the starting of studies?
    Mr. Macleod: If it is a deterrent in the way my hon. Friend suggests, it would certainly come within the terms of reference.

    Chiropody Treatment
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Health what consideration has been given to providing chiropody treatment for elderly people; and with what result.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharpies) on 21st February.
    Mr. Dodds: I have read the answer, and I think it is most unsatisfactory. Will the Parliamentary Secretary ask her right hon. Friend to have another look at this matter, bearing in mind that foot troubles can quickly cripple people, whereas proper treatment can give a new lease of life? What financial assistance is given by the Government to local authorities who have introduced this system of treatment?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: At present, the only local authorities who run the system are those which provided this service before 1948 and which were allowed to continue. There has not been an extension since then. My right hon. Friend studies all the problems in the Health
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    Service, but it is a matter of priority, and other overriding priorities have prevented this additional financial obligation being undertaken.
    Mr. Dodds: Most unsatisfactory.

    Water Supplies (Fluoridation)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement in respect to the experiments being made in the fluoridation of water; and what progress has been made.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: Fluoridation in three selected areas in England and Wales is expected to start during the summer.
    Mr. Dodds: As this is a most important matter, can the hon. Lady not give a little more detail? How many local authorities are going to make a start, and how many experiments are being held?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: The study areas have already been announced and are Anglesey, Darlington and Watford, in England and Wales, and Kilmarnock, in Scotland. The reason it takes some time to bring them into operation is that special equipment has to be provided, and the local authorities are now inviting tenders.
    Dr. Stross: Is a list available, which we could see or have placed in the Library, of the fluorine content of water so far as it is available at present, particularly for the major local authorities?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I will look into the hon. Member's request.

    Drug Preparations (Dispensing Equivalents)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Health whether he has noted that exactly similar preparations of some drugs, particularly penicillin, are manufactured by different chemical firms and stocked by dispensing chemists; that these preparations have different names; and whether he will authorise dispensing chemists to dispense an exact equivalent, irrespective of the name on the prescription.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: My right hon. Friend is aware of the position, but he would not feel justified in authorising chemists to dispense preparations other than those prescribed. The matter is primarily one for the prescriber.
    Dr. Stross: Is the hon. Lady aware that, certainly so far as oral and stable suspensions of penicillin are concerned, there are four or five which are exactly alike and certainly identical in their therapeutic effects? Is she aware that this may mean that a child suffering from pneumonia cannot get anything to help it for a day or a night or a day and a night when a similar preparation is available for it? What does the Parliamentary Secretary think ought to be done in such a case?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: Under the present code of the chemists, it would be quite unethical for a chemist to transpose one preparation for another that was ordered by the medical practitioner. In a case of that kind, there is certainly no reason why the chemist could not telephone the doctor and ask whether he would agree to change to the comparable preparation.
    Dr. Stross: Would the Parliamentary Secretary and her right hon. Friend go further and make representations to the appropriate sub-committee of the British Medical Association to give this matter full consideration?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: It is a much wider problem than appears in this one item; it is against the professional code of the chemist. The National Health Service Acts do not authorise a chemist to substitute another preparation for one which is ordered and I do not think that generally my right hon. Friend could advise such a procedure.

    Doctors (Merit Awards)
    Mr. Beresford Craddockasked the Minister of Health on what basis the Distinction (Merit) Award is given to consultants in the National Health Service over and above their salaries; and why the identity of the doctors granted these awards from public funds is not published.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The committee set up to recommend awards is required by its terms of reference to base its recommendations on professional distinction. In my view, publication of names would not be in the best interests of the National Health Service.
    Mr. Craddock: As the grants are paid from public funds, what possible objection is there to publishing the names of the recipients?
    Mr. Macleod: The objection, surely, is that if it were known which consultants got class A, class B and class C awards, patients might think that, according to which consultant was looking after them, they were getting different forms of treatment. That would not be the case, because other factors than clinical ability are taken into account. That view, I think, has always been held by my predecessors, and I believe it to be right.
    Mr. Beresford Craddockasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that doctors of the highest distinction in the employ of the Medical Research Council are not eligible for Distinction (Merit) Awards in the same way as consultants in the National Health Service; and whether he will take steps to provide for such, or similar, grants to be made in order to remove this anomaly.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Subject to rules of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy, doctors employed by the Medical Research Council are eligible for distinction awards if they hold honorary consultant appointments in the National Health Service. Apart from this, their remuneration is a matter for the Lord President.

    Occupational Centres, Wales (Mentally Defective Children)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Health how many occupational centres for mentally defective children are open in Wales; and how many are projected.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: Six are open; a further three are known to be proposed by local health authorities.
    Mrs. White: Where it is not possible to serve an area by occupational centres, what encouragement is given to the local authority to provide home treatment?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: Generally, this is a matter for the local authority under educational arrangements and not so fully under our arrangements, but if the hon. Lady puts a Question on the Order Paper I will look into the position in Flintshire, with which I am sure she is particularly concerned.

    Oakwood Park Colony, Conway
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Health what progress has been made with the Oakwood Park Colony for mental defectives at Conway.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Adaptations costing£62,000, to provide accommodation for 184 patients and the necessary staff, began on 17th December last and are expected to be completed by December next.
    Mrs. White: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the accommodation is for children and what proportion is for adults?
    Mr. Macleod: Not without notice. In the end it is intended to accommodate up to 500 or 600, but perhaps I can write and let the hon. Lady know what proportion of that number will be children.

    Colonial Medical Service (British Doctors)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the growing numbers of unemployed among British doctors, he will consult the Secretary of State for the Colonies regarding their being engaged in the service of Colonial Governments.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies and I already consult as necessary on the needs of the Colonial Governments for medical staff, and vacancies are, of course, publicly advertised in all appropriate cases. As regards medical manpower generally, the hon. Member will be aware of the terms of reference of the Committee whose establishment I announced a week ago.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are 200 applications for each vacant job today in the United Kingdom? I she further aware that there are some 61,000 people per doctor in Nigeria and that things are worse in the Cameroons, where there is one doctor for every 71,000 of the population? Would the right hon. Gentleman ginger up matters and set up a working party to investigate the question of seconding doctors to the Colonies, particularly to West Africa?
    Mr. Macleod: All posts are advertised and any doctor can apply. It is not within my competence—and I hope that
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    the hon. Member does not seek to imply it—to direct doctors to go to any particular area. As to general matters of medical manpower, as the hon. Member knows, I have set up a committee.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that people in the Colonies think that the present scheme is not working? Will he not consider some financial inducement, perhaps a settlement scheme, to induce doctors to go out to the Colonies?
    Mr. Macleod: The problem is largely one for the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and I will certainly bring to his notice the suggestion which the hon. Member has made.

    Medical Manpower Committee
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Health (1) why the committee to inquire into the number of doctors likely to be engaged in medical practice in the future contains three members who have been associated with health administration in Scotland, eight members who have been associated with health administration in England, and no members who have been associated with health administration in Wales; and if he will make a statement;
    (2) in view of the official recognition of Welsh problems in health administration by the institution of the Welsh Board of Health, if he will consult with the Minister for Welsh Affairs about the Committee which he has set up to inquire into the number of doctors likely to be engaged in medical practice in the future, and particularly about the advisability of adding some Welsh members to this Committee.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The members of this Committee have been appointed solely on their personal qualifications and not as representatives of particular areas or interests. I am confident that they will take full account of any points special to Wales, and that the interests of the Welsh health services which, through the Welsh Board of Health, are my direct responsibility, will not be prejudiced in any way.
    Mr. Gower: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, however these men have been appointed to the Committee, in fact it contains three men who have been connected with Scottish health administration and a large number who have been

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    associated with English health administration? Is he aware that this is regarded in Wales, by people who are not nationalists, as a singularly tactless and unnecessary affront to Welsh opinion?
    Mr. Macleod: As regards the first part of the supplementary question, any high-level committee, particularly one dealing with medical matters, would be bound to have a large number of Scots upon it. As far as the Welsh point of view is concerned, it is true, of course, that this matter has not been dealt with in any way upon a regional basis. Wales is one of the 14 regions in England and Wales and the Committee is so small that I do not think it practical to add to it.
    Mr. D. Jones: Did the right hon. Gentleman consult the Minister for Welsh Affairs? If not, why not?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, Sir. All these proposals are notified to my colleagues, including the Home Secretary.

    Coal-Gas Poisoning
    Miss Baconasked the Minister of Health how many people have died during the last year as a result of accidental coal-gas poisoning; and how many such non-fatal accidents have been reported.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The provisional figure of deaths registered in the 12 months ended 30th September, 1954 is 669. The information asked for in the second part of the Question is not available.
    Miss Bacon: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable public anxiety at the increasing number of this type of accident? Has he any suggestions to make on the provision of adequate safeguards in respect of coal-gas?
    Mr. Macleod: Any question that is directed to the cause of these unhappy accidents is one naturally for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power.

    Disabled Ex-Service Men (Motor Cars)
    Mr. Simmonsasked the Minister of Health (1) how many disabled persons have been supplied with motor cars since the responsibility for their supply was transferred to his Department;
    (2) how many disabled persons, other than those with a double leg amputation, one above the knee, have been supplied with motor cars because of severe disabilities since the responsibility for their supply was transferred to his Department.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: In total 91 cars have been issued, 76 of which were provided for pensioners who were not double amputation cases.
    Mr. Simmons: Is the Minister satisfied that he has now sufficient cars to meet the real needs of these men? Have there been any cars ordered and supplied from the makers since the merger between the two Ministries, and are they still granted only to ex-Service amputees and patients?
    Mr. Macleod: The qualifications have not altered since the previous arrangements or, indeed, since the previous Government were in office. The main point is that all applications which qualify have been met, although sometimes there is a delay of not more than a week or two before delivery.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the figures for ex-Service men and for National Health cases?
    Mr. Macleod: All these cars are for ex-Service men.

  HOSPITALS

    Personal Case
    Mr. Wadeasked the Minister of Health why, in view of the independent medical report from a leading specialist, the mental deficiency order under which Kathleen Bradley, St. Margaret's Hospital, Great Barr, Birmingham, has for many years been detained, though at present allowed out on full licence, has not been discharged.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I understand that this case was recently considered by the board of control, who decided that the patient was still in need of the protection afforded by the order.
    Mr. Wade: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this unfortunate woman has been detained more than twenty-one years and there does appear to be evidence at least to suggest that she should never have been detained? Is that to be reviewed? At the same time, may I take

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    the opportunity of asking if the Minister is quite satisfied that, pending the report of the Royal Commission, everything possible is being done to ensure that there are not individual cases of injustice or detention without just cause?
    Mr. Macleod: The individual case is due for review before 31st March by the Board on the reports of the visiting justices. It is for the visiting justices, if they so wish, to hear evidence or any representations from the hon. Member or anyone else who would like to make them. On the general point, of course, I cannot give a categorical assurance. All I can say is that, to the best of my belief, that is so. I would be most anxious to investigate any case brought to my notice.

    St. Michael's Hospital, Lichfield (Boiler Equipment)
    Mr. Snowasked the Minister of Health when new boiler equipment will be supplied to St. Michael's Hospital, Lichfield.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I hope that this equipment will be renewed as part of a general scheme for improving the heating services which is under discussion with the regional hospital board.
    Mr. Snow: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on 15th April last the Parliamentary Secretary said that the delay, which even at that date had taken place, was due to the need to clarify the intentions of the board in relation to this hospital? A year has gone by and the committee concerned feels frustrated at the lack of action by the Ministry in this matter.
    Mr. Macleod: I am afraid I cannot accept the criticism implied, because there has been considerable discussion as to whether the scheme proposed by the board was or was not over-elaborate. What I hope will be the end of the matter is that an early discussion has been arranged and, I hope, early action will follow.

    Orthopaedic Treatment, Birmingham
    Mr. Snowasked the Minister of Health the number of persons on the waiting list of the Birmingham Region for orthopaedic operations as at the last convenient date; and at the same date for each of the previous four years.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Separate figures for orthopaedic operations are not available, but, with permission, I will circulate figures of those awaiting orthopaedic treatment in the Official Report.
    Following are the figures:
    Separate figures of those awaiting orthopaedic operations are not available.
    Figures of those awaiting orthopaedic treatment on 31st December in each year are as follows:

    —

    Regional Hospital Board Hospitals

    United Birmingham Hospitals

    1950

    …

    3,009

    24*

    1951

    …

    2,572

    35*

    1952

    …

    2,488

    34*

    1953

    …

    2,711

    195

    1954

    …

    3,306

    263

    * Figures for the Children's Hospitals only: figures for other hospitals not available.

    Maternity Wards (Identification of Babies)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Health what new instructions he has now issued as the result of his investigations into the various methods of identifying babies in maternity hospitals; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am glad to have this chance of giving the result of my inquiries. The most common and satisfactory system seems to be to attach a bracelet (or two bracelets) to the baby at birth (or to both mother and baby), with a corresponding label for the cot. The sewing of a marked tape round the wrist seems both simple and effective in the great majority of cases. Recent errors seem to be due, not to defective arrangements, but to a failure to carry them out properly. More elaborate arrangements would have no advantages, and indeed might increase the possibilities of error; the important point is that hospital staffs should be most careful in first making out the bracelet and label and in subsequently checking them from time to time. These points have been brought to the attention of the hospitals concerned through discussion at meetings between my officers and those of hospital boards.
    Mr. Collins: Since the Minister seems to have decided that the bracelet method is the best would he say whether it is

    1707
    now being treated as standard in all hospitals? Can he also decide on the particular kind of bracelet method which should be standardised, so that nurses on moving from one hospital to another are familiar with the type of bracelet that is used?
    Mr. Macleod: It is the general practice here and abroad, but it has not been laid down as absolutely standard. The problems that have arisen so far have been because nobody looked at the bracelet, and not because the bracelet was not there. Clearly, we could festoon babies with bracelets, but if nobody looked at them the difficulty could still arise.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is there any reason why the practice should not be uniform in all hospitals? Why this wide variety of methods that is at present employed, which puts a premium on mistakes?
    Mr. Macleod: I should not have thought that that was so. There are different variations, but nearly all hospitals in this country have one or other variant of the bracelet method.

    Mental Hospitals (Diet Allowance)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that in mental hospitals, management committees are still required to keep their expenditure on provisions within the 1948 limit of 2s. 5d. per person per diet day; and if he will state, for July, 1951, and January, 1955, respectively, the sum required to purchase the amount of similar provisions which could be purchased for 2s. 5d. in July, 1948.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: As I have previously explained, there is no fixed diet allowance for mental hospitals, and it is for hospital management committees to determine how best to spend the sums allocated to them by the regional boards. The second part of the Question, therefore, is not relevant.
    Mr. Collins: Is the Minister aware that I have a copy of a letter from a regional hospital board which makes precisely the restriction which I noted in the Question, and that that restriction of 2s. 5d. per diet day has to my knowledge been in operation in that region for the last four years? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that, since the costs of basic
    1708
    foods have increased by 50 per cent. over the period concerned, in terms of 1948 this means a figure of 1s. 8d. per diet day now? Will the Minister look into this question, because it is brought about by shortage of money and is causing considerable difficulty and there is not sufficient food for patients?
    Mr. Macleod: I suppose, if one puts one's mind to it, one could get more inaccuracies into a Supplementary Question, but it would be extremely difficult. The figure of 2s. 5d. relates to the costing returns for 1953–54. The earliest return is for 1950–51 when, as far as one can make out, the comparable figure would be, not 2s. 5d., but 1s.9d. There are no records before 1951 to apply back to 1948, but, if there were, the figure would no doubt have been lower still.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Is the Minister aware that there is a growing awareness in the hospital service that the standard of catering and the costs of provision in mental hospitals and mental deficiency hospitals are too low? Will he use what influence he can—perhaps, in the form of a circular—to bring this matter to the attention of regional hospitals and management committees?
    Mr. Macleod: That is another matter but one with which I have a good deal of sympathy. I will look into the hon. Member's suggestion.

    Capital Development Schemes
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that some regional hospital boards have schemes of major capital development ready for immediate implementation or sufficiently advanced to permit work to commence during the coming financial year; and, in view of this, if he will reconsider his decision to delay the expansion of hospital building and modernisation until the year 1956–57.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I know of no major hospital building scheme outside the existing 1955–56 programme that is ready for immediate starting. If any of those for which I have recently asked Boards to bring plans to completion are ready to start before 1956–57 I will consider whether it is possible to fit them into the 1955–56 programme.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that our pleasure on this side of the House at the fact that he has at last managed to extract some more money from the Chancellor is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it is in the form of a post-dated cheque? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a scheme in the region with which I am associated which we could put to contract straight away but that it has been turned down by his Ministry?
    Mr. Macleod: None of the schemes for Clare Hall, West Herts and so on, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman has in mind, have gone to tender and, therefore, they are not ready for immediate starting. If satisfactory tenders are obtained for 1956–57, and if, as I have said in my answer, they are ready to start, I will look into the question whether we can get them into the 1955–56 programme.

    Nursing Staff
    Mr. A. Robertsasked the Minister of Health how far the number of mental nurses, engaged to date, meets the normal requirements of our mental hospitals.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: There is still a shortage which has been estimated at about 10,000.
    Mr. Roberts: What steps are proposed to be taken to stimulate recruitment for mental nursing?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: There are several schemes in operation at the moment. First, the increased capital expenditure on the mental treatment side will provide better accommodation, which will help tremendously in recruiting. We hope that good results will be obtained from the publicity plans this year. They include an exhibition which is being run by the Ministry to arouse interest in mental nursing. Several pioneer schemes are also being undertaken under the auspices of the General Nursing Council in connection with joint training schemes.
    Mr. Shurmer: Is the hon. Lady aware that if something is not done very quickly we shall have no nurses at all soon in our mental hospitals? We in Birmingham are very short-staffed. Is she aware that nurses are continually leaving and that something must be done soon?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: We share the hon. Member's concern. The figures are
    1710
    going up, although slowly, and we welcome any support for these campaigns to endeavour to persuade people to come forward and join the mental nursing services.

    Welsh Building Projects
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Health what proportion in capital cost of the new hospital building programme recently announced by him will be in Wales; and what is his estimate of the number of extra beds to be provided in Wales and England, respectively.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Until I have received and considered the proposals of all hospital boards, I cannot say what proportion of the new building programme will consist of Welsh projects.
    Captain Pilkington: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some very important areas have been omitted from the scheme, about which he will be receiving representations?
    Mr. Macleod: I am sure that there are. I have said many times that the lists which I have put forward are not in any way exhaustive.

    Doctors (Salary Scales)
    Mr. Bowdenasked the Minister of Health what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that the present salary scales are sufficiently attractive to encourage young doctors to enter hospital service rather than enter general practice.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The salaries of hospital medical staff are a matter for the Medical Whitley Council in the first instance; but I know that the need to keep a proper balance in recruitment was an important factor in the agreement on increased salaries reached by the Council a year ago.
    Mr. Bowden: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the difficulties which are experienced by many hospitals in the provinces in obtaining and recruiting junior medical staff?
    Mr. Macleod: Indeed I am. It would be a mistake, however, to link those difficulties entirely with problems of pay. In many cases they arise because the hospitals are remote or unattractive in themselves. As far as pay is concerned,

    1711
    the agreement last year did a good deal to restore the balance which was upset by the Danckwerts award.
    Mr. Snow: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it would be a very great pity indeed if the provision of practitioners for the countryside were in any way jeopardised? Is he aware that there are still many rural areas under-doctored?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, Sir.

    New Hospitals, West Midlands
    Mr. Simmonsasked the Minister of Health why there is no provision for new hospital accommodation, excepting for the projected mental hospital, in the area of the West Midland Regional Hospital Board in his new programme.
    Mr. Snowasked the Minister of Health why, in the new programme, plans for the construction of hospitals other than for mental purposes were not included for the Birmingham region.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I made it clear at the time that the list of projects I gave on 9th February was not comprehensive, and on receipt of proposals from hospitals boards I shall consider what other projects can be included.
    Mr. Snow: Earlier this afternoon the Minister conceded to me that there was a very long delay in settling one relatively ordinary matter of bringing a hospital up to date? Is he aware, broadly speaking, that the public is very concerned about the omission of provision of new hospitals in the Midlands, and even taking the pre-war situation into consideration, does he realise that the Midlands have always been short of hospitals compared with older industrial areas?
    Mr. Macleod: Apart from the mental hospital to which reference is made in the Question, I specifically indicated a new general hospital at Coventry, which is of great importance in this particular area. I cannot give the final answer about many large projects in the Midlands or anywhere else until the regional board's proposals are in front of me.

    Improvement Schemes, Dudley and Stourbridge
    Mr. Wiggasked the Minister of Health what plans for improved hospital accommodation in Dudley and Stour-
    1712
    bridge are contemplated; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Five schemes, costing in all more than£15,000, for improvements at three hospitals in the Dudley and Stourbridge group, are included in the regional hospital board's programme. The board also has under consideration a proposal for a major scheme for an out-patient and casualty department at Corbett Hospital, but I cannot say at present when this scheme is likely to start.
    Mr. Wigg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Stourbridge we are all very disappointed because nothing has been done to get on with the erection of the out-patient and casualty departments at the Corbett Hospital? Will he do something to speed this up, because it serves a very wide area and the need is getting desperate?
    Mr. Macleod: I am very conscious of the need there, and I am sure the regional board will give this particular scheme substantial priority, but whether it will be high enough to figure in the first part of the regional board's list is something I do not know yet until I see its proposals.
    Mr. Simmons: Trade unionists in the area—and this is a heavy industry area—are very much concerned about this matter and already the right hon. Gentleman has had representations from the Dudley and Stourbridge Trades Council on the matter. Will the right hon. Gentleman give weight to the opinion of trade unions?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, Sir, I will be very glad to do so.

  LEGAL AID
  Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that the operation of the Regulations made under the Legal Aid and Advice Act, 1949, with regard to the contributions exacted from an assisted person as a condition of a grant of a legal aid certificate often cause hardship; and whether he will take steps to modify the regulations and, in particular, to give the National Assistance Board greater discretion in the matter.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller): No, Sir. My noble Friend the Lord Chancellor agrees with

  1713
  the view expressed by the Legal Aid Advisory Committee in their Third Annual Report that the public money available should go first towards extending the scheme to those parts of the Act not yet in force rather than to amending the parts already in operation.
  Mr. Fletcher: I am not sure whether the Attorney-General has answered Question No. 43 or No. 44. If the Attorney-General was really answering No. 43, his answer was far more appropriate to No. 44. No. 43 deals with regulations.
  The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman had better look at Question No. 43 again, when he will see that the answer I gave was to the right Question.
  Mr. Fletcher: Is the Attorney-General aware that I have already had one letter from him apologising for the mistakes made in the assessment by the Board. That was in respect of a man earning£8 a week who was wrongly assessed at£124. The Attorney-General said he should have been assessed at only£62. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of many cases of great hardship through over-assessment, which suggests that either the regulations are wrong and ought to be changed, or that they are being badly administered?
  The Attorney-General: I wrote to the hon. Gentleman in regard to one case which was brought to my notice where the National Assistance Board made an error in the assessment. The hon. Gentleman's Question asked me to take steps to modify the regulations and to give the National Assistance Board greater discretion in the matter. That is the Question I am answering. I have answered it, and I adhere to that answer.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: Arising out of that reply and concentrating particularly on the word "hardship," of which there are many instances, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that, apart from the question of regulations, the sums fixed by these committees are, in fact, exceeding the amount which the litigant would have to pay to a solicitor direct without any legal aid at all? Is it not correct that this is continually happening in divorce cases?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. and learned Gentleman cannot make a speech.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman look into those cases and try to remedy them?
  The Attorney-General: Of course I will look into any case sent to me, as I did in the case sent to me by the hon. Gentleman who asked this Question, but the tenth paragraph of the Third Report of the Advisory Committee said this:
  "We still consider that the first call upon Government funds should go not to alleviate conditions under the existing schemes but towards extending it to those parts of the Act not yet brought into force."
  It adheres to that in the Fourth Report, about which the Question is asked.
  Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that the latest Report of the Law Society on the operation of the Legal Aid and Advice Act containsan urgent recommendation that a legal advice scheme should be set up; and what steps he is proposing to take in the light of this recommendation.
  The Attorney-General: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave the hon. Member for Norfolk, Central (Sir F. Medlicott) on 31st January.
  Mr. Fletcher: Does that mean that the Government are neither going to alleviate the cases of hardship which arise under the present scheme nor extend the scheme of legal aid? Are they going to do neither one nor the other?
  The Attorney-General: I announced some time ago the extension of legal aid to the county court.
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, although since Magna Carta Englishmen have had certain rights, it was only after the passing of the Legal Aid and Advice Act that they were able to enforce them? Would he not agree that it is desirable at the earliest possible moment to extend the right to have legal advice authoritatively so that all citizens may know what are those rights which they are entitled to enforce at law?
  The Attorney-General: As one of those who signed the Rushcliffe Committee's Report, I am naturally in favour of legal aid and advice being provided as soon as it can be.

  MILITARY AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (DEPARTMENTAL RESPONSIBILITY)
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Prime Minister which Department of State has been responsible for the production of military aircraft since November, 1951.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I have been asked to reply.
  The Ministry of Supply.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: As the Department has been so successful that we have now in some respect or the other the best defence in the world, why was it necessary to move the former Minister of Supply to a more sheltered spot and to produce a new Minister of self-defence to explain away the Government's magnificent record in this field?
  Mr. Lloyd: I do not think hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite always thought that the Ministry of Housing and Local Government was a sheltered spot.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS CATERING
  Mr. Collinsasked the hon. Member for Woolwich, West, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, why the charge for beef in the House of Commons Dining Room has been increased from 2s. 9d. to 3s. 3d. per portion.
  Mr. Steward: When the price of 2s. 9d. was fixed we had to accept a high percentage of frozen foreign meat. We are now able to obtain a continuous supply of prime Scotch beef. The cost is higher, and we have been obliged to increase our prices.
  Mr. Collins: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we have been constantly assured from the Government benches that the increase in price has been insignicant and there seems to me to be some delusion on his part? Therefore, will he consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and ascertain where this cheap meat can be found? If he finds that his right hon. Friend is wrong, would he educate him about the facts of life?
  Mr. Burden: Are my hon. Friend and the Members of the Kitchen Committee not to be congratulated on the fact that last year, for the first time for many years, the Catering Department of the House has been run without a loss?
  Mr. Wigg: As an English Nationalist, may I protest against the sale of Scottish beef in the dining room?
  Mr. Crouchasked the hon. Member for Woolwich, West, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, what percentage of white cheese used by his department is home-produced; what percentage is Empire; what percentage is foreign; and what percentage of blue vein cheese used is home production, Empire, and foreign, respectively.
  Mr. Steward: The answer is:
  White Cheese—70 per cent. Home, 20 per cent. Empire, 10 per cent. Foreign.
  Blue Vein Cheese—50 per cent. Home, 50 per cent. Foreign.
  Mr. Crouch: May I ask my hon. Friend, in view of the ample supplies of good English cheese now available, and since it has fallen by 3d. a lb. during the last 10 days, if he can increase the amount of English cheese used by the Kitchen Committee? Furthermore, is he aware that English blue vein cheese, such as good Stilton and Wensleydale, is far superior to anything we can import from abroad?
  Mr. Steward: Of the white cheese, only 10 per cent. is foreign, and that includes cheeses of the type of Camembert which is popular with some hon. Members. The foreign blue vein cheeses include Gorgonzola and Danish Blue, which also are preferred by certain hon. Members.

  COURT PROCEEDINGS (PUBLIC ADMISSION)
  Captain Kerbyasked the Attorney- General whether he will set up a commit tee to consider what amendments are necessary in the law in order to secure that criminal charges are always heard in public court except when the court, on application being publicly made to it, otherwise orders.
  The Attorney-General: No, Sir. I have no evidence suggesting that any such amendment of the law is desirable, and I

  1717
  do not consider that any useful purpose would be served by appointing a committee to study the question.

  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Republic of Ireland Residents (Benefits)
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether residents of the Republic of Ireland are excluded from benefits of the National Insurance Act by his regulations under Section 29 of that Act.
    The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Osbert Peake): No, Sir.

    Rent Allowances Increase (Tenement Property)
    Mrs. L. Jegerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance why increased rent allowances are being paid by the National Assistance Board on be half of five tenants in a tenement, of which he knows the name, when more than 30 certificates of disrepair have been issued in respect of identical flats in the same block; and what steps he is taking to ensure that further public money is not disbursed to landlords who do not comply with the conditions of the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954.
    Mr. Peake: The decision on the amount of assistance to be granted in a particular case is by statute a. matter for the Board and their officers, and I have no power to intervene. I am however informed by the Board that it is satisfied that, in the circumstances of the cases referred to, the decision to increase the allowance for rent was justified.
    Mrs. Jeger: Is the Minister aware that every tenant in this block who asked for a certificate of disrepair was issued with one, and that in these five cases of old and sick people the reason certificates were not issued was that they were not applied for? How can the Minister justify the payment of this increased allowance to the landlords in respect of property which is manifestly not entitled to an increase under the Act?
    Mr. Peake: As I have said, this is a matter under the statute for the Board,
    1718
    and the Board informed me that it was satisfied that, in the circumstances of the cases referred to, a decision to increase the allowance was justified. It does not necessarily follow that all the flats in a block are in a similar state of repair or disrepair at any given moment, and I would remind the hon. Lady that the National Assistance Board has for more than 20 years been dealing with the difficult question of what is the permissible rent under the Rent Restrictions Acts, and doing it, I think, to the general satisfaction.
    Mrs. Jeger: Is the Minister aware that these certificates of disrepair were issued in respect of the condition of the lavatories and the staircases and the shared washhouses in this tenement block, and that, therefore, there can be no question that these five flats are in any different condition from those in respect of which no increases are being paid? Is the Minister able to point out to the Board that in all the cases where tenants are paying their own rent in this block, not one is paying an increased rent, and that it is only when the money is coming from Government funds that the landlord is getting the increase?
    Mr. Peake: I will certainly convey to the Board the information given me by the hon. Lady, and I will invite the Board to take it into consideration.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Whilst appreciating that the National Assistance Board has wide experience in these matters, surely the Minister is not condoning any step in which the Board is voting public money for anything which is not legally due?
    Mr. Peake: By no means, but I was pointing out that the Board has been confronted with this problem of controlled and permissible rents and increases in rent during the whole of its existence.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Are we to understand that the first time these facts were brought to the notice of the Minister was when my hon. Friend pointed them out to him?
    Mr. Peake: The information conveyed in the supplementary questions is new to me, but the facts as stated in the hon. Lady's original Question have been known to me for some time.

    Silicosis and Pneumoconiosis, South Wales
    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware of the concern that is felt in South Wales at the increasing number of cases in which coroner's courts have found that the death of coalminers was due to, or accelerated by, silicosis or pneumoconiosis and in which the medical boards make contrary decisions; and whether he will consider the setting up of a competent body to investigate and report on the criteria used by the boards in arriving at their decisions.
    Mr. Peake: I am aware that for some time concern has been felt in South Wales on this matter. I have had discussions with my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary and his predecessor about it. A circular was issued to coroners in October, 1954, drawing attention to the importance of employing experienced pathologists in cases of this kind. I think we must wait and see the effect of this circular before considering any further steps.
    Mr. Griffiths: The information available to me is that even since those steps have been taken this disparity is continuing and is causing widespread concern, indeed despair. May I ask the Minister whether he would not reconsider his answer, and whether he does not think the time has come for an examination of the criteria by a competent body? Local feeling is very strong about this, so would he consult his medical advisers regarding a closer examination of this problem?
    Mr. Peake: I am just as much concerned as the right hon. Gentleman about this matter, which causes a great deal of distress. If it will interest the right hon. Gentleman, I will send him a copy of the circular which the Home Secretary has issued to the coroners. He, as well as I, is aware that coroners are independent judicial officers, and there is great difficulty in arriving at a solution of this problem.
    Mr. Griffiths: Is the Minister aware that where a coroner's court reaches a verdict that death was caused by pneumoconiosis or silicosis after a report by a pathologist, much doubt is created about the decision of the Board? Since it is a judicial authority, whose decision is final and binding, is it not essential
    1720
    that an inquiry should take place in order to maintain confidence in the Board?
    Mr. Peake: My information is that in the majority of the cases where difficulty has arisen the post-mortem examination has been conducted by a general practitioner, and therefore I think it would be wise to see whether the circular issued has any effect before considering further action.

    Reciprocal Agreement (B.A.O.R. Service Men)
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) on what dates negotiations with Germany, with a view to concluding a reciprocal agreement to ensure that dependants of Service men living in British Army of the Rhine are not excluded from their rights under the National Insurance Act, 1946. were commenced and concluded;
    (2) why a reciprocal agreement with the German Federal Government to ensure that dependants of Service men living in British Army of the Rhine are not excluded from their rights under the National Insurance Act, 1946, has not yet been concluded.
    Mr. Peake: Negotiations for an agreement that would include the persons referred to by my hon. Friend have reached an advanced stage and an agreement will, I hope, be signed shortly. There have been a number of complicated matters to settle and I do not think that it would have been possible for us to make quicker progress.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable bewilderment and resentment on the part of those serving in Germany when they are told that they are serving on a home station, whilst, at the same time, their dependent relatives, such as mothers, have their pensions stopped on the ground that they are abroad? As this is not a matter which has arisen recently but has been hanging fire for eight years, during which period we have had complete rights in Germany, why has nothing happened hitherto?
    Mr. Peake: It is rather a novel situation which has arisen recently with a number of men serving in Germany who have desired to have their elderly relatives living with them. We have already

    1721
    started negotiations with the German Republic for a reciprocal agreement, and that agreement will be signed shortly.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment on 9th March.

    War Pensioners (National Assistance Payments)
    Mr. Marloweasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware that many war-disabled pensioners who draw National Assistance will receive no net increaseas a result of the new scale of pensions, in as much as their assistance benefit will be reduced by an equivalent amount; and whether in the case of disability pensions he will make an exception from the general principle of reducing National Assistance by the amount of an increase in income.
    Mr. Peake: No, Sir. All disablement pensioners receiving National Assistance have benefited to the extent of the increase in the assistance rates at least; and up to 20s. of their disability pensions is disregarded in calculating the assistance grant.
    Mr. Marlowe: Is my right hon. Friend aware that by the very reason of their disablement many of these men are prevented, as other people are not, from increasing their incomes in any other way.
    1722
    and is it not unfortunate if, when they appear to get an increase in pension, an equivalent amount is taken away from their National Assistance? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that in the case of war-disabled pensioners there is a case for departing from the general principle?
    Mr. Peake: No, Sir. I cannot agree that that is the case. The 20s. disregard puts these men in a much more favourable position than others who have to apply for National Assistance.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Will not the right hon. Gentleman try to make some sort of distinction between the war disabled people and the others, because the pension payable to the war disabled has nothing at all to do with insurance and it should have nothing at all to do with National Assistance either?
    Mr. Peake: The question, of course, has nothing to do with insurance. As I pointed out, these men are already under the existing practice and legislation in a more favourable position than others who have to apply for National Assistance.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on the Northern Ireland Bill and the Fisheries Bill exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.31 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry Brooke): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is by no means the first Public Works Loans Bill which has been before the House. From attendance at recent debates and perusal of earlier ones, I am well aware that it is not a subject which normally holds the House enthralled, or inspires to flights of eloquence, but I will try to make my remarks as informative and as illuminating as I can.
  The purpose of a Public Works Loans Bill is to make available to the Public Works Loan Commissioners funds which they can lend to the local authorities and to certain other bodies. In 1887, the Local Loans Fund was set up under the National Debt and Local Loans Act of that year. The Local Loans Fund is under the control of the National Debt Commissioners. Section 6 of the 1887 Act empowers the National Debt Commissioners to issue to the Public Works Loan Commissioners:
  "… such sums as may be for the time being required not exceeding in the aggregate the amount authorised by Parliament."
  It is because the existing sum authorised by the last Act is nearing exhaustion that the new Bill is needed. The last Public Works Loans Act received the Royal Assent on 18th December, 1953, and it fixed£500 million as the maximum which might be advanced from that date. This sum of£500 million seems likely to be exhausted by April, and that is the reason why I am today bringing forward the new Bill.
  The Bill is on familiar lines. Clause 1 will authorise advances up to a further£500 million from the day when the Bill receives the Royal Assent. I cannot say, nor can anyone else, how long the fresh£500 million will last. It will depend entirely on how rapidly and how heavily local authorities wish to borrow from the Public Works Loan Board. The£500 million authorised by the 1953 Act seems likely to last about 16 months, and that may be a rough guide to the future.
  1724
  Let me explain at this point that the Bill does not control the amount of borrowing. It is not a policy Bill; it is a machinery Bill. The amount of borrowing by local authorities is controlled not by any of these Acts but by the Government Departments to which local authorities have to apply for loan sanction when they wish to raise loans. The House will also recollect that since 1st January, 1953, local authorities have been free to borrow elsewhere than from the Public Works Loans Board if they so wished.
  It may interest the House to know that of the amount borrowed under the 1953 Act up to the beginning of the present month approximately 74 per cent. was borrowed for housing purposes, about 8 per cent. for public health purposes, about 7 per cent. for education, about 5 per cent. for transport purposes, drainage, and so forth, and the remaining 6 per cent. was reborrowing to repay maturing debt. Perhaps I should explain to the House that any balance of the£500 million under the 1953 Act which has not been used up by the date this Bill becomes law will lapse automatically. That also is the existing arrangement.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: It has been normal, as I think the hon. Gentleman probably knows, to give the actual figures and not percentages. If the hon. Gentleman has the figures, I think it would be useful if he could give them to us. We could then compare them with the figures given by former Financial Secretaries to the Treasury when introducing earlier Bills.
  Mr. Brooke: I want to help the House as much as I possibly can.
  The right hon. Gentleman will probably realise that during the last few weeks borrowings from the Public Works Loan Board have been unusually heavy. The percentage figures that I gave were accurate up to the beginning of February. I will certainly give him the exact figures if he will recognise that they are up to the beginning of February and not up to the present moment. The actual total up to the beginning of February was£364 million, of which£270 million was for housing purposes,£30 million for public health,£24 million for education,£19 million for transport and drainage purposes and so forth, and£21 million for reborrbwing to meet maturing debt.

  1725
  I can perhaps also assist the House by giving the aggregate figure up to the end of last week. The total rose from£364 million at the beginning of February to£413 million on Friday last, but I am not in a position to give the precise break up of the£49 million borrowed during February.
  Mr. Ede: Can the hon. Gentleman divide the education figures into sums advanced to local authorities and sums advanced to the governors or managers of denominational schools?
  Mr. Brooke: I cannot give any further break up of the education figure at the moment, but if the House gives me leave to reply to the debate I will try to obtain a further analysis. As I was saying, any balance of the£500 million which has not been used up by the date that the Bill becomes law will automatically lapse. That happens under Section 1 (2) of the 1953 Act and it is repeated by Clause 1 (2) of this Bill.
  Under Clause 2 of the Bill we deal, as in previous years, with the necessity for the Public Works Loan Board to enter into commitments to advance money before the advances are actually taken up. Quite clearly, it is essential that the Board should enter into such commitments to make loans before the local authority actually borrows the money. The clear consequence of that is that at any given moment the Board has outstanding substantial commitments which have not yet been taken up. The House may care to note that on 19th February outstanding commitments of that nature were£519 million.
  Clause 2 also lays down that at no time during the currency of the Bill, or Act when it becomes an Act, shall the Board's total commitments not yet taken up, plus the Board's total advances under the Bill, exceed£1,000 million. In the 1953 Act the limit was set at£1,200 million. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) will be aware that the limit has been altered from time to time. I should like to asure him that there is nothing sinister in the slight reduction of this figure.
  It arises because of a new agreement which has recently been made with the local authorities. The agreement is on these lines: first, that loan approvals which have been outstanding more than
  1726
  two years without being exercised shall be cancelled and, secondly, that local authorities will henceforward not seek the Board's approval for a loan the moment that the authority obtains loan sanction from the Government Department concerned. The local authority will come to the Board for approval for an advance, only if it is altogether likely that the authority will actually be wishing to take up a loan from the Board.
  The House will appreciate that in the past there have been occasions, especially since the beginning of 1953, when a local authority has secured an undertaking from the Board to grant it a loan, whereas in the end it has turned out that the loan has been raised from some other source and yet the Board's commitment to make the loan has remained on the Board's books. It is generally agreed by all concerned to be desirable to modify that and to reach the position where the outstanding commitments will be commitments for loans which are likely to be taken up, rather than commitments some of which are dead.
  This new agreement will mean that outstanding commitments are likely to shrink to a decidedly smaller figure than in the past. It is judged that the amount provided under Clause 2 can quite reasonably be limited to£1,000 million, instead of£1,200 million as previously, because of this policy agreed with the local authorities of getting rid of commitments which are moribund.
  There are just two or three more things I should like to add, having explained the Clauses in the Bill. The first is one in which there will be general interest. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in the House last Thursday that a statement on the rates charged by the Public Works Loan Board would be premature until market adjustments had been completed. The process of adjustment has, in his view, by now gone far enough to indicate that the present rates are now out of line with the general level of Government credit. Accordingly, the Treasury is increasing the long-term rate, that is, the rate for advances from the Public Works Loan Board of more than 15 years duration, from 3¾ per cent. to 4 per cent. Adjustments are also being made to the rates for advances for shorter periods, but the House will probably be aware that the rate of principal interest

  1727
  to local authorities is the long-term rate, because most of the Board's loans are for periods of longer than fifteen years.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: Can the hon. Gentleman say, right away, whether the Government will ensure, by means of the housing subsidy, that this does not result in rising rents for local authority houses?
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Before my hon. Friend answers that point, will he respond to a further question? If Her Majesty's Government have thought fit to increase the rate from 3¾ per cent. to 4 per cent. on account of the Chancellor's statement last Thursday, will they suitably adjust the rate downwards in the event of the Bank Rate being reduced on a future occasion? If that is the policy of the Government, are we not going to have a series of hiccups or gyrations?
  Mr. Brooke: I do not think that we shall have any hiccoughs, or gyrations, but all these matters can be discussed in the course of the ensuing debate and I shall listen with interest to what hon. Members have to say.
  In answer to the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), the rates of housing subsidy are, of course, a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, but I think that I am right in saying that there is provision for periodical re-examination of the rates of subsidy. I cannot speak for him this afternoon. What I am doing at this moment is to announce to the House a decision which has just been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I think, if I may say so, that it would be wise for the House to allow me to complete what I have to say.
  Mr. A. Blenkinsop: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware that the new rate of housing subsidy comes into operation on 1st April, so that it is most important that a statement should be made which would delay the coming into operation of the rate until this matter has been clarified.
  Mr. Brooke: If the hon. Member will look at the Order Paper, he will see that there is at least one Question down for my right hon. Friend tomorrow. It is not for me to anticipate what a senior
  1728
  Minister may say in answer to a Question tomorrow. What I want to tell the House is that these rates will apply to advances made on or after tomorrow, Tuesday, 1st March.
  The next point with which I want to deal is one which I know has been discussed at considerable length during previous debates on earlier Acts. It was raised on the last occasion by, among other people, Sir Geoffrey Hutchinson whose absence from debates on this subject we all deplore, because he took a large part in them and was very well informed. It is whether local authorities may be permitted to raise loans from the Public Works Loan Board for periods less than the full period of the loan sanction.
  I had the pleasure of meeting representatives of the local authorities about this and other matters last November. In response to my request they sent me further detailed proposals with a letter on 14th January. I know that the local authorities attach great importance to gaining the right to borrow from the Public Works Loan Board for periods less than the full period of the loan sanction. I have considered this desire of theirs very carefully. I want to tell the House that though I have not actually written my reply to the local authorities, I shall shortly be writing to them, in answer to their letter of 14th January, and giving them a favourable answer to the request which they have made—the request which has been pressed in debates on previous Bills of this kind on a number of occasions.
  They have made out a case which the Treasury should respect, and I hope that we shall find an arrangement satisfactory to both sides for giving them that greater freedom which they have not possessed hitherto.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the question of the rates of interest to be charged to local authorities, will he tell the House what are the new rates for shorter-term loans and how much they have increased.
  Mr. Brooke: I think that I can oblige the right hon. Gentleman. I told the House that the new rate for loans for more than fifteen years would be 4 per cent. The new rate for loans for more

  1729
  than five but not more than fifteen years will be 3¾ per cent. and the rate for loans for not more than five years will be 3⅛ per cent. A Treasury Minute is being made today.
  Mr. Nabarro: Will my hon. Friend please tell us the previous rates?
  Mr. Brooke: I apologise for having to go through all the figures, but I am extremely anxious that the House should have the full information. The long-term rate is raised from 3¾ per cent. to 4 per cent. The House will be aware that it was reduced from 4 per cent. to 3¾ per cent. in, I think, June of last year. The medium-term rate is increased from 3¼ per cent. to 3¾ per cent., and what I might call the short-term rate, in this sense, is increased from 2¼ per cent. to 3⅛ per cent.
  The House will be aware that these rates are so fixed that the Exchequer shall, so far as possible, neither lose nor gain on the operation; that is to say, they are fixed in relation to the current rates of interest on Government securities of a similar character.
  I am well aware that there will be a number of questions that hon. and right hon. Members will wish to raise, and I will do my best to satisfy them with any further information which they may desire. All it falls to me to do now, in moving the Motion, is to express my thanks—I hope that they are the thanks of the whole House—to the Public Works Loan Commissioners, who are an unpaid body of people, including the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher). We are grateful to them for their public service, and I think I may say, with some knowledge of the local authority world, that the local authorities themselves have a high regard for the manner in which the Commissioners and their staff discharge their important public duties.
  Mr. Nabarro: On a point of order. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that on 12th November, 1952, when the Public Works Loans Bill came before the House on that occasion, a controversy took place for nearly an hour at the beginning of the proceedings, in which I was privileged to participate, as to whether it would be in order for a general discussion to take place on interest rates that were not mentioned in the Bill before the House—and this Bill today is a replica of the earlier Bill—and also whether it would
  1730
  be in order for a discussion to take place on the whole of the economic implications of the policy of the Government in altering the level of the Bank Rate from time to time.
  As it is already clear that this debate will range very largely around the Chancellor's statement of last Thursday, can you rule at the outset that it will be in order to discuss any of the implications arising from the announcement of a change in the Bank Rate?
  Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the Motion for the Second Reading of the Bill can be discussed without some reference, as the Financial Secretary who moved the Motion made it, to the Bank Rate. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) rather alarms me when he asks whether it will be possible to include a general economic discussion within the scope of the Bill. The answer to that, I think, is "No," but any matters of recent occurrence which affect the operation of the Bill are in order. However, nothing is in order until I have proposed the Question to the House. The Question is, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  3.57 p.m.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: The Financial Secretary began his speech by indicating that this was a small Measure which, normally, was on a subject which did not excite a great deal of interest. I assure him at the outset that this time there is considerable interest in the Bill. My hon. and right hon. Friends will desire to make observations on some of the matters upon which the hon. Gentleman touched. It is not for me to prophesy how long the debate will take, but I remember, as does the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), the debates on the Bill of last year and the year before. If my recollection is correct, we spent a considerable time on those Measures, small though they were.
  On those occasions, the hon. Gentleman's predecessor sat on the Treasury Bench for many hours without being able to obtain any refreshment. As a member of the union for being kind to Financial Secretaries, I assure the hon. Gentleman that if during the debate, supposing it is prolonged, he cares to slip out for a little while, we shall fully understand and shall not raise any objection.

  1731
  As he said, the simple object of the Bill is to empower the National Debt Commissioners to make provision for the Public Works Loan Commissioners to advance£500 million to local authorities. It also empowers the Public Works Loan Commissioners to enter into commitments to advance another£500 million, if called upon, making altogether in advances and promises£1,000 million. That is£200 million fewer than last year.
  We fully understand the reason for the diminution in the amount provided, though we must not forget that there are 1,500 local authorities and, although not all of them now—since Section 1 of the Local Authorities Loans Act, 1945, has lapsed—will have to go to the Public Works Loan Commissioners, undoubtedly the majority of them will still go. From the figures given to us by the hon. Gentleman, it is quite obvious that many of them were well aware of what has been happening in the money market and have seized the opportunity to come to the Board in large numbers during the last few weeks.
  The Public Works Loan Board was instituted in 1875, and, therefore, this year it reaches its eightieth birthday, only shortly after the similar anniversary of the Prime Minister. The Board was set up to assist local authorities. Although some people believe that there should be a longer interval between these Bills and that the Government should provide larger amounts to be placed at the disposal of the Board, it is, in my view, an excellent thing that the Government should bring in a Bill once every Session. It gives the House an opportunity to review the work done by the Board and to see whether any changes should be made to bring its practice up-to-date and make it of even greater assistance to local authorities.
  There is not the slightest doubt that these facilities are of first-rate importance to the majority of local authorities. I was one of those, with other hon. Members on this side of the House, who resisted the repeal of Section 1 of the 1945 Act. It was our view that it helped to provide an excellent method of helping to finance local authorities. My one criticism of the fact that this Bill comes at this time of the year is that it fails to coincide with the end of the financial year of the Board itself. The Board's year ends, I think, on 31st March each year. Normally, its
  1732
  report is published within three months thereafter, and we are thus faced with the fact that the figures, when we discuss them, are very much out of date.
  This year the figures are almost eleven months out of date, and that is why, when the hon. Gentleman was giving particulars of what had been spent up to the beginning of February, I intervened to ask him to turn his information into figures instead of percentages. Despite the fact that Section 1 of the 1945 Act has lapsed, and that a number of local authorities must have gone to the open market, it is interesting to note that more money has been advanced by the Board this year than last year, and that almost as much has been advanced as was advanced in 1952.
  In November, 1952, the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury told us that£274 million had been advanced to local authorities for housing purposes. Last year, the figure was only£245 million, and this year it has gone up again to£270 million. If I understood the hon. Gentleman aright, the amounts for outstanding commitments, which have been astonishingly large these last few weeks, brings the aggregate up to a great deal more. I should like to know whether this increase is due to fears about a rise in the rate of interest which the Board charges, or whether there is some other reason. Perhaps we may be informed on that matter.
  Looking at the last Report which ended in March last year, I noticed that the Commissioners say that no fewer than£97 million was asked for, apparently approved by the Board, and then not taken up. May we be told what is the figure for the last eleven months? I assume, from what the hon. Gentleman said, that the figure will not be anything like that amount, because of recent applications due to the change in the Bank Rate. But we should like to know, because it would be of interest to the House to discover why it is that some local authorities apply for money, get approval from the Government Department and from the Board, and then, to an amount such as this, decide that they will not go on with the application.
  Is it that in the meantime they find that they can get better rates in the open market, or what is the reason? I think that the House would like to know. These

  1733
  queries are pertinent, because the Board exists to assist local authorities to raise money on the best terms. Other things being equal, the facilities provided by the Board should be equal to, even better than, those obtainable in the open market. One of the prime functions of a debate of this kind is to discover whether, as the years go by, the rules by which the Board functions are elastic enough to meet modern conditions.
  For a number of years hon. Members have criticised the fees which the Board has thought fit to charge. The hon. Gentleman made no reference to them. What is the fee now charged? Is it still 4s. per cent., with certain variations for loans secured on certain classes of property, or has it been altered? I see from the last Report that fees received amounted to£657,472. That was a considerable drop on what was received the year before, when£874,277 was received. If my memory serves me right, in the year before that the amount received was£800,000 or more.
  If the costs to the Board were almost as high, one could appreciate figures of this sort, but we know that the costs of the Board are very much less. According to the last Report, the expenses, salaries, rent, stationery, postages, superannuation and other items amounted to no more than about£79,000. There was thus over£500,000 clear profit to the Department. To some of us it appears quite unfair that local authorities should be charged these sums, for such fees seem to be out of all proportion to the cost of the services rendered. I should like the hon. Gentleman to tell us whether this aspect of the matter has been considered. It has been raised often enough, but so far as I know, nothing has been done.
  Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton: Would my right hon. Friend agree that the work of the Public Works Loan Board could be done just as well by the Treasury? It would seem that the Board is a "fifth wheel" to the conveyance.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not wish to go into that now. The work has to be done by someone, and it could be argued that if the Treasury did it additional staff would be needed. I do not know what the staff now numbers, but I gather that the figure is going down. I should be surprised if it is more than 80. Probably it
  1734
  is somewhere between 70 and 80, but certainly not more. There is a considerable amount of work, and I should imagine—though it will be for the Minister to say—that even were it done inside the Treasury, it would have to be done by the staff similar to those employed in the present Department.
  We on this side of the House were delighted that an arrangement has been reached to permit local authorities to borrow for periods less than 60 years. I am sorry that that arrangement has not gone further and allowed local authorities who have borrowed at rather high rates to borrow at cheaper rates, when a rate change occurs, by repaying the loan and refloating what is left of it.
  I am, therefore, sorry that that suggestion has not been agreed to. The authorities have to find this money either from those who live in council houses or from the ratepayers generally in their areas. Why should they pay more interest on borrowed money than they need? If they borrow in the open market they are free to make this change, and as the Board exists to assist local authorities, it seems to me that it should be able to assist them in the same way, whenever possible.
  I know that there are difficulties. For example, the Exchequer grant is made year by year on certain percentages, but we have to remember that money borrowed for housing purposes is not subject to that grant. It attracts a subsidy, and it therefore seems to us that something should be done in this direction.
  May I say a word or two on interest rates? I have not the slightest doubt that my right hon. and hon. Friends will come back to this subject over and over again during this debate. There is a vast change in the conditions today compared with those when my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) was Chancellor of the Exchequer. My right hon. Friend held the interest rate steady throughout. For a number of years the rate was held steady at 2½per cent. A little later my right hon. Friend the late Sir Stafford Cripps advanced the rate to 3 per cent., but he never went above that. Since the present Government came into power, the rate has fluctuated. I forget how many times it has changed—certainly three times in their period of office. When the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) used the word "kick-up"——
  Mr. Nabarro: We must get this right. What I said was "hiccups and gyrations."
  Mr. Hall: Whether it is kick-up or hiccup, it is a most elegant expression, as all hon. Members will agree. Just what it means in this connection I do not know, but certainly there was no hiccup or kick-up while my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland or the late Sir Stafford Cripps were at the Treasury. They bore in mind that local authorities should be encouraged to borrow money as cheaply as possible, both for their housing purposes and for other public works, and that industrialists and commercial men generally should also be able to borrow money as cheaply as possible.
  Since the present Government came into power, as I have said the rates have fluctuated. This has been very unfair on many local authorities, they have not known what the rate would be almost from month to month. Now, as the Financial Secretary indicated, the rate is to go up again. I do not know how long it will remain at 4 per cent. It is not quite as high as it was in October, 1953, when I think it was 4½per cent., following a change in the Bank Rate. Be that as it may, there is no doubt of its impact on local authorities' finances.
  I want to put a further point to the Financial Secretary. It is obvious from the last Report that the Board appears to be carrying a rather large sum in bad debts, and I notice that no provision has been made in the Bill for writing off any fresh amounts. It think the last time any considerable sum was written off was two or three years ago—I think in the 1952 Act—when we wrote off£171,000. Does this mean that bad debts are not accumulating or is it that the Government have decided not to ask the House to relieve the Local Loans Fund of any of the outstanding arrears or does it mean to ask the House to write off such money only at longer intervals? At any rate, even if we are not asked this time to write off sums which, obviously, will never be recovered, it is I think, the Financial Secretary's duty to let us know what the position is.
  We on this side of the House welcome the Bill, and believe that the amounts of money which it provides will be of the utmost benefit to local authorities. We do not intend to vote against the Second
  1736
  Reading, but we believe that there are a number of outstanding questions to which a reply should be given. I therefore hope that before we give the Bill a Second Reading the Financial Secretary will be able to assure us that the rate of interest which has now been announced will not be imposed for any longer than is absolutely necessary and that its impact on local authorities will be such that, through the subsidy, they will be able to meet the increased charges.
  As we all know, local rates are now extremely high and any change in the Bank Rate, and the interest rates to local authorities which follows, means to local ratepayers an increase in the amounts which they have to find each year. In particular, it means an increase of some shillings a week in the rents which local authorities have to charge to their tenants.
  We should, therefore, be careful at all times to see that what local authorities have to find in interest charges is kept as low as possible. The Board was set up to assist local authorities to keep these charges down and, in so far as it does that, it fulfills its functions, but in so far as it is used by the Government as an instrument for keeping up rates of interest and imposing upon authorities charges which otherwise they might not have to meet, it is bad. We on this side, as I say, do not intend to oppose the Second Reading, but I do ask the Financial Secretary to give the House the information that will be asked for.
  4.8 p.m.
  Sir William Darling: My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary almost outdoes the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) in persuasiveness and soothing words, but the House must be quite clear about what we are doing this afternoon; we are once again raising the cost of living.
  The right hon. Member for Colne Valley sought to persuade the House that it is desirable to get further into debt, but the monstrous debt under which this country staggers is a crying scandal against which very few voices are raised in this Chamber. Although my right hon. Friend is borrowing less for the Public Works Loan Board this time than has been borrowed on previous occasions, nevertheless this is not a policy which should necessarily be continued.

  1737
  The Public Works Loan Board came into being because of the impecuniosity and lack of resources of local government way back at the beginning of the century or earlier—1887, I think. Local authorities in those days were often imperfect organisations. They had no developed rating system—there was little to rate—and there was little experience of the art of government through the rates. Consequently, there was set up a special organisation to assist local authorities to provide money for necessary public works, mostly sewerage and roads in those days.
  In those days there was the need for a Public Works Loan Board, but I do not think there is a need for its continuation, and certainly not for the motive for which it is used at the present time, of encouraging profligate local authorities to borrow money they could not borrow otherwise. I specifically use the word "profligate."
  Mr. Charles Pannell: Why does the hon. Gentleman say "profligate" local authorities, bearing in mind that most of this money can be borrowed only with the consent of the Government? The local authorities cannot themselves go straight to the Board. They have to get the sanction of the Government through the Chancellor. It is a long time since the hon. Gentleman was made honorary treasurer of the City of Edinburgh, but if he remembers those days he will know that I am right.
  Sir W. Darling: That interruption, of course, is characteristic and very interesting. It reflects the difference in the view of hon. Members opposite and that at least of myself on this side.
  I repeat that this device of having a Public Works Loan Board has been an encouragement to many profligate local authorities. By profligate local authorities, I mean local authorities which are tempted and encouraged to do things which perhaps they would not do, and the central Government are often mainly to blame in this matter.
  Central Governments of different complexions from the present one, as well as the present one, have often tempted local authorities to do things which, in my judgment, and certainly in the opinion of the ratepayers, might as well not have been done, and the Board has encouraged
  1738
  them in this direction. One would think the only way in which a powerful local authority, or, indeed any local authority, can raise its necessary income is by loans. It has, of course, been the established practice and habit of this country for many generations to do so, but it is neither wise nor necessary.
  There is the city to which the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell) has referred, the City of Edinburgh, which has a remarkable record in this sphere. It is true that I was one of the city's treasurers for three years. For sixteen years the rates of the City of Edinburgh stood at 7s. 11d. Through wars and rumours of wars and uncertainties of all sorts, and problems and difficulties which brought down Governments and, indeed, changed many great States, this city has managed, by a prudent management of her affairs, to dispense with the Public Works Loan Board and to conduct her business at 7s. 11d. in the£. This is not fiction but fact, and when I say that some local authorities are profligate I am saying what I know to be true.
  The City of Edinburgh today, for example, does not need to go to the Public Works Loan Board, but borrows from its own citizens. I happen to be connected with a company which has£200,000 in the bank, and which lends it to the City of Edinburgh at, I think, 1½ per cent. How is it able to do that? It is able to do so because the confidence of the ratepayers of the City of Edinburgh is in their local government, which is unhesitatingly able to borrow at half the rate which either the market or the Board can charge for money.
  I am not saying that everything is perfect. This may be possible in Edinburgh, but not elsewhere; and I am not suggesting that the financial integrity of the people of Edinburgh is superior to that of the honourable Cockneys who represent the City of Leeds. It may be due to a difference in the financial structure——
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member is a parochial-minded person, and he speaks only from his nodding acquaintance, as it is now, with the City of Edinburgh. I speak as an Essex-born, Kentish-domiciled, near-Cockney representing a Yorkshire city. Lending at from 1⅘ to 1½ per cent. is not peculiar to Edinburgh.

  1739
  It is done by any number of small towns. I suppose Leeds did it first and Edinburgh later.
  Sir W. Darling: I did not think that on this occasion, any more than on any other occasion, I was going to make a very good speech, but the stimulus that I am giving to the hon. Member for Leeds, West encourages me to believe that I am saying something worth while. He is anxious to charge me with having a parochial mind. There is a proverb in Holy Writ:
  "The eyes of the fool are on the ends of the earth."
  Although Leeds is not at the ends of the earth, from Dartford it is some distance, and the hon. Member for Leeds, West can take the point of that proverb to himself. If I am parochial-minded I am not ashamed to be.
  Good government begins in little towns, and good government today is probably in the small communities and not in the large ones. Although we are going to pass this Bill, and this payment of£500 million, let us be quite clear that we shall add to the burden and the debt of the next generation. We are making things more difficult both for the present and for the future. To save is a virtue. To live within one's means, whether as a person or a community, is a virtue. I do not think this continuing milking of the future, the unimaginable future, for the needs of the present is wise. I do not think that this is good personal or public finance.
  Although my voice is a parochial one, and will doubtless receive little support, it is none the less true that to get into debt is to get into trouble, and that this policy places burdens on others which we do not intend to discharge ourselves. This is a burden encouraged under this Administration as well as their predecessors. I repeat that those local authorities that manage their business prudently and well can live within their means.
  When prudence is engendered, local authorities will not be tempted by the Crown or by the central Government to do this, that and the other. They will say with civic pride, "Until we can afford to do these things ourselves, we will dispense with them." That is not the practice of the London County Council,
  1740
  probably one of the most extravagant and profligate local authorities in this country. None the less, many local authorities have taken this view and hope to continue to do so.
  I should like to join issue with the right hon. Gentleman for Colne Valley in his protests against these rates of interest. I have never believed that money was dear at any price. To save£100 is not an easy task. I think that all of us in this House have managed to save it with difficulty. To give it to somebody in exchange for£5 a year seems to be the cheapest way in which one can spend one's money. Money, in my opinion, is never dear, not even at 6 or 6½ per cent. which is the current rate of interest in Scotland today for the use of£100, which possibly is never repaid. Strangely enough, money is the cheapest thing in the community. Nothing else is sold at a gross profit of 6½ per cent.
  Dr. H. Morgan: Oh, yes.
  Sir W. Darling: No other commodity is that I know of.
  When I hear the observations of the right hon. Gentleman about the high price of money, I beg him to reflect on the consequences. If money is dear, people tend to be more prudent. If money is cheap, they tend to be profligate. There is something to be said for a dear money policy. It makes people careful not only with what they themselves borrow, but with what they are prepared to lend. The social effects of a dear money policy are restrictive, it is true, but they are honestly restrictive. They do not induce men and women into a fool's paradise.
  It is cheap money which leads them into temptation, so I hope, that as debt is not a good thing, as to live within one's means is a wise thing, and as public extravagance and public profligacy are merely one and the same thing, they will be discontinued.
  4.30 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: The Financial Secretary has reminded the House that I am a member of the Public Works Loan Board. I hope hon. Members will not think that I am thereby disentitled to say a few words on the Bill, any more than on previous occasions. The Financial Secretary was also kind enough to pay a tribute to the work done

  1741
  by the Commissioners. I ought to acknowledge that by replying that most of the hard work is done by the excellent and industrious staff who serve the Commissioners so painstakingly year in and year out.
  One of the agreeable features of our debates on Public Works Loan Bills is that the work of the Department is rarely, if ever, criticised. Such controversy as arises is almost entirely focussed on the policy of the Government, in the way they treat the Public Works Loan Board by extending or restricting its activities, or in relation to the rate of interest that it may charge. It is just as well, in view of the criticisms that are sometimes made by local authorities and others about the Board, that it should be clearly understood that it is the Government and not the Board who fix and vary from time to time the rate of interest charged to local authorities by the Board.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: How often does the Board meet? Does it just do what the Government tell it to do?
  Mr. Fletcher: The Board meets every fortnight. The opinion has been expressed before that the Public Works Loan Board serve no useful purpose in our administrative arrangements. In the past, I have expressed the opinion myself that it is little more than a facade. That was in the days when local authorities had no alternative source of borrowing. During the last year or two, local authorities have been able to borrow not only from the Board but from the market, and from the other source which is also open to them, the private investor. Some local authorities make a point of obtaining their money from private investors.
  If I were asked my opinion today, it would be that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) is not justified, nor is the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling), in saying that the Public Works Loan Board ought to be abolished or that its work could be done by a purely administrative body. It serves a useful function, in so far as it is able now to withhold sanction if, in the view of the Commissioners, that course is justified.
  The need to do so rarely arises, because in most cases the purposes for which the local authority wishes to borrow are deserving and meritorious, serving good
  1742
  social ends in the locality, something which it is the duty of the Board to encourage. There may be, and there have been, cases when a project was unnecessarily expensive, or for some other reason, in which the Board has withheld or deferred sanction until some objectionable feature of a local authority project was removed.
  Sir W. Darling: I did not say or intend to say that I favoured the abolition of the Board. It fulfils a useful place in our administrative system. I share the views of the hon. Member who is addressing the House.
  Mr. Fletcher: I am glad to be able to acquit the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South in that respect.
  As on previous occasions, the real value of the debate is that it enables us to criticise the policy of the Government with regard to the rate of interest which the Board is obliged to charge. It is significant that the Financial Secretary has had to announce today an increase in the rate. As my right hon. Friend said, there have been four more changes in the rate of interest than under the Labour Government. This is the fifth change that has taken place since the Conservative Government assumed office in October, 1951.
  These changes produce very serious consequences for local authorities. The ideal situation for them would be stability in the rate of interest over a long period. Continuing fluctuations in the rate are embarrassing to local authorities and not only produce a great deal of hardship, injustice and uncertainty, but cause inequality in regard to the rates charged between one local authority and another.
  The Financial Secretary gave very interesting and revealing statistics. He said that during the period to the end of January, when the existing Act had been current for about thirteen months, the total borrowings from the Board amounted to£364 million. He told us that the total had gone up to£413 million. I took down the figures which he gave. They showed an additional£49 million in the last month. Whereas the monthly average a month ago was in the region of£30 million, it has gone up during the last four weeks to£49 million.
  Mr. Nabarro: Surely that is very perspicacious on the part of local authorities. Why should the hon. Member deprecate their action in that respect?
  Mr. Fletcher: I have not got to the point of deprecating it or otherwise. I am at the previous stage. I am pointing out that as a result of the increase in the Bank Rate which took place a month ago, and of the general expectation that it would be followed by a further increase in the Bank Rate, as indeed it was last Thursday, a rush has been precipitated on the part of local authorities to obtain advances from the Board before the rate of interest went up.
  I am not saying that it is wrong. It is a consequence of the change in the Bank Rate. If the rate of interest had not been announced today I have no doubt that the amount of loans that the Public Works Loan Board would have had to make in the next few weeks would have been at a very much higher rate than£50 million a month. It would almost certainly have been about£20 million a week, because local authorities would have been most anxious to get their advances before the change in the rate took place. Now that the change has been announced, all those local authorities which have not already received their advances will have to pay the increased rate of interest. That produces a great deal of inequality between one local authority and another.
  If hon. Members will look at the last Report of the Public Works Loan Board, they will see that in page 9 figures are given showing the various rates of interest at which local authorities have, in fact, borrowed during the last ten years. The rates have fluctuated from 1¼ per cent.—though only a very small amount was borrowed at that rate—to 4¼per cent. By far the largest amount of the money lent by the Board to local authorities during the last ten years—in fact, it is a figure of over£1,100 million—was at the rate of 3 per cent.
  An increase of even a quarter per cent. on even a small loan produces very considerable results, and, when it is borne in mind that at the moment there are pending loans running into millions of pounds, hon. Members will appreciate the consequences which that increase will have on the ratepayers in the areas of the local authorities concerned.
  Sir W. Darling: They need not borrow.
  Mr. Fletcher: The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South says that they need not
  1744
  borrow, but if they are to carry out their housing and other plans to which they are committed they must borrow.
  For example, if£1,000 is borrowed from the Board at the old rate of 3¾ per cent., the total amount which the local authority has to repay is£2,521 by half-yearly repayments of£21 0s. 3d. The result of this increase in the rate to 4 per cent. means that the total amount which has to be repaid on£1,000 goes up by£125 to£2,646 and the half-yearly repayments go up by over£1 to£22 1s. 4d.
  I do not know whether we are to have a review of the housing subsidies as the result of the new rate of interest or not, but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) pointed out, the recently announced reductions in the subsidies are to operate only from 1st April, and unless these subsidies are revised and unless the Government grant increased housing subsidies, the inevitable result of the rate of interest announced by the Financial Secretary today will be that all tenants of houses built as a result of loans made after today will have to pay another 2s. or 2s. 6d. per week in rent.
  There may be local authorities which can average that out, but there are some, particularly in the rural areas, which will have no opportunity of doing so, and that is bound to mean a net increase in the rents payable by tenants in those areas.
  The real criticism that can be made against the increased rate announced today is that, whereas it may or may not be a good thing in the interests of the national economy that there should be changes of Bank Rate—and I am not arguing whether that is a proper instrument which the Chancellor should use in the interests of the national economy to correct the tendencies which have manifested themselves during recent months—the inevitable result of using the instrument of the Bank Rate, rather than import restrictions or any method for one set of purposes and circumstances, is to produce quite unnecessary chaos and hardship in local authority finance.
  That is a most regrettable consequence which flows from the Chancellor's announcement last Thursday, and I had hoped that the Government would have seen the necessity of finding a method which enables local authorities to balance

  1745
  their finances without this continuous uncertainty and fluctuations of the rate of interest in local loans.
  Further, I want to ask the Financial Secretary what effect the increased Bank Rate and the increased rate of interest to be charged to local authorities are to have on all the ambitious plans that have been announced so recently. Millions of pounds are to be spent on railways, hospitals and roads, and a great deal of the expenditure on highways which was announced recently will fall on the local authorities and increase their costs.
  Is it to be a consequence of this new financial policy that these ambitious schemes are to be curtailed, or will they be postponed? How much of the additional cost will fall on the local authorities? Where is the end of all this? Are we to have a revised statement as a result of the changed financial policy which the Chancellor announced on Thursday, and which the Financial Secretary has followed up in his announcement today?
  These are the questions to which I hope we shall receive answers before this debate ends, because while, as I have said, there is no direct conflict on the merits of the Bill, this occasion is always used to probe the policy of the Government in these wider matters of national finance.
  4.47 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: We had a very interesting and instructive debate on the Second Reading of the Public Works Loans Bill on 12th November, 1952, when, once again, practically the whole of the controversy that took place centred upon the rate of interest to be charged by the Board. The Bank Rate at that time was already substantially higher than the rate appertaining when the present Conservative Government came into office.
  On that occasion, I defended the increased rate of interest for loans made to local authorities by the Public Works Loans Board for three principal reasons, and I think it is pertinent to look back on what has happened in the intervening period since November, 1952, in order to see whether, in fact, any of those predictions have come to pass. I said then:
  "I welcome this Bill for three reasons. It is a measure of freedom, a measure of financial discipline and a measure of economy."—[Official Report, 12th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 1042.]
  1746
  The main consideration today is the measure, of financial discipline. I have never understood why local authorities should expect to be able to borrow from any central Government agency or elsewhere at artificially low rates. In my opinion, they should be required to pay the appropriate interest rates which supply and demand in the open, free money market at that moment demands that they should pay.
  At this moment, the rate announced by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary may or may not be appropriate. My hon. Friend has been extremely arbitrary in stipulating in his speech what these rates shall be, and I shall pass to the question of the rates in a moment.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) so rightly said, the important thing is that local authorities, like all other institutions, business houses, industrial undertakings and the rest, should be discouraged from profligacy and extravagance by the operations of a free money market and the fact that the interest rates at which they borrow are appropriate to the demand and supply position of money on an open and free market at the particular moment when the borrowing transaction takes place.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: The hon. Member has twice referred to this free money market, with the rate of interest determined by the supply of and demand for money. I cannot quite follow him. Surely the rate of interest is largely determined by the Government's decision about the Bank Rate, which has nothing to do with either the supply of or demand for money upon the free market?
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member has not been in his place throughout the debate. Had he been here he would have observed that several references have been made to the fact that many of the bigger local authorities have had recourse direct to the money market during the period which has elapsed since 1952.
  Mr. Jenkins Mr. Jenkins indicated dissent.
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member shakes his head, but, of course, many of them have had recourse direct to the money market. He should know, because he sits

  1747
  for the constituency of Stechford, which is in the City of Birmingham. The City of Birmingham was one of the first local authorities to go direct to the money market, so dispensing with the facilities offered by the Public Works Loans Board. That was provided for by the terms of the Act of 1953. Not all local authorities go direct to the money market. The important point is that the operations of the market should be upon a free and unrestricted basis, though from time to time, if the Chancellor announces a change in the Bank Rate, it might have an effect upon the rates of interest that may be charged.
  I mentioned a few moments ago that I should criticise what my hon. Friend said about fixed interest rates. He said that the Loan Board proposed to increase its rate of interest to local authorities for long-term loans from 3¾ per cent. to 4 per cent.; for medium-term loans from 3¼ per cent. to 3¾ percent., and for short-term loans from 2¼ per cent. to 3⅛per cent. As a matter of general principle I dislike what I referred to in an earlier intervention as the hiccoughs and gyrations of a system of this kind, namely, the alteration of the rates every time the Bank Rate changes.
  I should like to quote a case which, in my opinion, is exactly analogous, namely, building societies and their rates of interest upon mortgages. It is instructive that Sir Harold Bellman, Chairman of the Abbey National Building Society, said last Friday that he hoped that it would be possible to continue the mortgage rates at their then level without alteration on account of the changes in the Bank Rate. If the larger building societies can do so, why cannot Her Majesty's Government arrange a stable rate of interest for the Loan Board in respect of its loans to local authorities? If that rate is considered to be too high, the local authority concerned can always have recourse to the free money market. That point is evidently right over the head of the hon. Member for Stechford.
  My policy—so admirably supported through the years by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South—has always been to encourage every local authority, as far as is humanly practicable, to go direct to the money market.
  Mr. Ede: The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) was advocating that local authorities should not borrow at all.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: Is not the reason for the announcement made last Friday—to which the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) has just referred—the fact that building societies are already charging a rate which is far higher than the Bank Rate?
  Mr. Nabarro: It would be most inappropriate to go into the terms and conditions upon which building societies may lend or borrow, but suffice to say they are both borrowing and lending money today, upon extremely competitive terms. The precise terms from week to week, and month to month, are controlled and dominated by the forces of supply and demand on a free money market. My policy, supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South—and I am proud to be associated with his free enterprise ventures—has always been to encourage the maximum number of local authorities to have recourse to the money market instead of to the Public Works Loan Board. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) evidently fails to appreciate that local authorities are thereby generally able to borrow upon more advantageous terms than they would receive from the Board.
  Mr. Glenvil Hail: If that is so, why has there been such an enormous increase in the past month or so in the number of applications made to the Public Works Loan Commissioners—as the Financial Secretary has pointed out?
  Mr. Nabarro: I must recommend the right hon. Gentleman to read the "Financial Times" from time to time. He will learn something about the operations of a free stock market if he reads the "Financial Times" and studies its features and those of similar financial publications.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: He would have lost a lot of money if he had done so.
  Mr. Nabarro: That depends upon what sort of an investor he is, and upon the perspicacity he displays. I commend for their perspicacity those local authorities which borrowed from the Public Works Loan Board before the Bank Rate went

  1749
  up. They took advantage of the situation and have thereby benefited from it.
  The first question I want to ask the Financial Secretary is: is it to be the policy of Her Majesty's Government to alter, every few weeks or every few months, the terms and rates of interest upon which the Board may lend to local authorities? Are the rates of interest always to be pegged to the Bank Rate? Why cannot the Board behave as the building societies intend to behave, and keep in operation a stable rate of interest to apply to its business transactions? A great deal of difficulty will be caused if we allow fluctuations in the Bank Rate in the way we have during the last year or so. We shall cause a great deal of difficulty to local authorities if we insist that the rates of interest of the Board are so closely associated with the Bank Rate. It should be possible to arrive at an average rate of interest for the Board for a guaranteed period of years. If local authorities do not wish to borrow at that rate, let them go to the open money market and borrow upon more preferential terms, if they are able to do so.
  My second point relates to the course of local authority borrowing since the Act of 1953 became operative. The most important part of our debates during the Second Reading of that Public Works Loans Bill, on 12th November, 1952, centred around the question whether or not it was desirable that the bigger local authorities should have recourse direct to the money market. Since then, many local authorities have borrowed large sums of money upon the open market. I should like my hon. Friend to tell us how much money has been borrowed in that way in each of the last two years, and how it compares with the moneys which have been borrowed by similar local authorities from the Board during an equivalent period, before the dispensation was given for direct recourse to the money market.
  In the Second Reading debate to which I have referred, several of my hon. Friends made the point that every pound borrowed by a large local authority direct from the money market relieved the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget of the necessity for providing a below-the-line surplus in an equivalent amount. It was, therefore, an aid and incentive to the reduction of taxation, and very desirable. That point was argued extensively
  1750
  during that debate, although hon. Members opposite profoundly disagreed with the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friends and myself, in this connection.
  I want to know from my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary—as this is the first opportunity we have had of asking him this question—to what extent the bigger local authorities have had recourse direct to the money market, how much money in total has been borrowed by them and by how much has the Public Works Loan Board been relieved by this means?
  We generally accept the principles of this Bill. It is a necessary hardy annual or biennial. Subject to a satisfactory answer on only those two questions, I shall, of course, support the Second Reading.
  Mr. Pannell: Does the hon. Member realise that it is doubtful whether the Financial Secretary can give that answer, because so much of the money would be borrowed on short-term account and there would be no record at all? I am speaking from practical experience and not trying to be awkward.
  Mr. Nabarro: As the hon. Member said, there is a certain amount of local and short-term borrowing by the bigger local authorities, but 99 per cent. of the borrowing of the bigger authorities who have sought recourse to the open market have done so by flotation of long-term loans. [An hon. Member: "Dead wrong."]. In answer to the second point put by the hon. Member for Leeds, West, he was one of the only Socialist hon. Members who welcomed the dispensation given to local authorities to have recourse to the money markets——
  Mr. Panned: I was the only one.
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member for Leeds, West, was the only one—the only one who expressed himself. I quote from the Official Report for 12th November, 1952, the hon. Member speaking:
  "I will not hide the fact that this Bill will be generally welcomed by the local authorities—
  Mr. Nabarro: Hear, hear; honesty itself."—[Official Report: 12th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 1037.]
  5.3 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: Throughout his speech this afternoon the hon. Member for Kidderminster

  1751
  (Mr. Nabarro) has been in a very rumbustious mood. He needed to be in order to try to cover over some of the obvious fallacies in his speech. At the same time I was rather disappointed by the way in which he dealt with some of the points he made.
  He started by telling us that when a Bill similar to this was debated in 1952 he made three predictions about it, welcoming it. I am not sure whether he said they were "predictions" or ways in which he welcomed it but he first used the word "predictions." Those predictions were that it would be a measure of freedom, of financial discipline and of economy——
  Mr. Nabarro: Three reasons.
  Mr. Jenkins: The hon. Member said that he would then proceed to tell us how things had worked out to prove how right he had been.
  The whole speech struck me as a self-important contribution; none the less, we were looking forward with interest to see how these three concepts, or three reasons for welcoming the Bill, had worked out. From his point of view they had a certain advantage in that all three were almost completely meaningless in the context in which he used them. Therefore, there would not be much difficulty in justifying what had happened. But the hon. Member did not even do that. Either he got tired of the subject, or was put off by interruptions and thought of something more important to say, but he did not tell us how the three concepts had been demonstrated in the past few months.
  Mr. Nabarro: It is true that I gave three reasons for welcoming the Bill in 1952. I repeated them this afternoon. I then went straight on to say that the Bill before the House exemplified that my prediction was correct in regard to one of the reasons, which was financial discipline. I then expounded at considerable length the reasons why financial discipline is so important today in recourse to the open and free money market.
  Mr. Jenkins: I can quite see that, in the view of some hon. Members, we needed financial discipline 2½ years ago, and, after 2½ years of the Chancellor's policy, we still need it. If that is what the hon. Member intended to convey to the House——
  Mr. Nabarro: Always.
  Mr. Jenkins: The hon. Member says, "always," but I understood from the whole burden of his argument that he thinks we need different degrees of discipline at different times.
  He is greatly attracted—although he does not fully understand it—to the concept of a free money market in which rates move up or down according to the supply and demand for money available. He was very anxious, in the course of his speech, to strike a close alliance with his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling). I thought that, on the showing of the hon. Member this afternoon, he was an ally whom it was unwise for anyone to seek.
  Mr. Nabarro: Which hon. Member?
  Mr. Jenkins: The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster was unwise to seek him as an ally this afternoon. Of course, on all afternoons it would be unwise to seek the hon. Member for Kidderminster as an ally. That, I think, is the difference between the two hon. Members.
  As I understood the burden of the argument of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South, it was that borrowing was always a bad and an unwise thing.
  Sir W. Darling: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Jenkins: At the same time the hon. Member suggested that the best way one could spend one's money at present was by borrowing at 6½ per cent. because that was the cheapest deal which was available, and that Scottish banks, of which we know the hon. Member is a distinguished ornament, were performing a service to the country.
  Sir W. Darling: I did indicate that while the foolish, unwise and profligate may borrow at 6½ per cent., the City of Edinburgh can borrow at 1¼ per cent.
  Mr. Jenkins: I certainly remember that in one part of his speech the hon. Member referred to the fact that the City of Edinburgh was borrowing money on call at seven days. I understood that it was 1½ per cent. Apparently it has gone down to 1¼ per cent. in the last hour.
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South also referred to

  1753
  profligate local authorities. I went out of the Chamber and checked the outstanding loan debt of the City of Edinburgh and found it was£26 million.
  Sir W. Darling: What is the rateable value?
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member will take this from me. I also have a return of the rates of interest at which British cities throughout the country are borrowing. Taking population and other things into account, and allowing for ordinary Scottish meanness, it works out very much the same.
  Mr. Jenkins: My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell)—as always—has made a very powerful and interesting observation. I am not absolutely sure why he has chosen my speech in which to make it.
  Mr. Pannell: I got in as; soon as I could.
  Mr. Jenkins: If I may go on with my speech from there, for the moment leaving the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South, and coming back to his ally the hon. Member for Kidderminster, one of the other more extraordinary theses which that hon. Member put to the House was that he took the view that the more local authorities could be sent away from the Public Works Loan Board and to the money market the better that would be. As I understood it, the better it would be in the interests of economy, of financial discipline, and in the interests of getting away from the profligacy on the part of local authorities which the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South deplores so much.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster went on to advocate a policy by which the rates of interest on the open market would no doubt vary as they do at present according, as he thinks, to changes in the supply and demand for money—a rather outmoded concept—and not according, as most other people think, to a great many other influences, including the rigging of the market by the Government from time to time. We were to have fluctuations from day to day, from week to week, and month to month, but loans from the Public Works Loan Board should be averaged out over a period and one should not have those fluctuations in loans from the Board.
  1754
  At a period when the Government think, rightly or wrongly, that there is need for some financial stringency, the Public Works Loan Board would be offering a very much lower rate of interest than the open market, and no local authority in its right mind would think of going to the open market in those circumstances. Therefore, it is not at all clear how the one concrete, intelligible suggestion to emerge from the speech of the hon. Member would in any way conduce to the aims which he and his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South, apparently, have in view. It would merely mean that at a time when we are told that there is profligacy—I am doubtful whether it exists—and at a time when it is most necessary in the view of the Government to curb it, local authorities would be penalised against any checks upon it.
  Sir W. Darling: My view was—and I am sure that the hon. Member will agree with me—that the more moneylenders there are available to the borrower, the better opportunity there is for the rate to come down. Remember that the local authorities always have the supreme advantage that they need not borrow at all: they can afford to wait.
  Mr. Jenkins: That is the interesting view of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South, but it was not on this point the view of the hon. Member for Kidderminster.
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member must not ascribe to me the sole responsibility for a desire for a certain stability of interest rate on the Public Works Loan Board lending to local authorities. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) said exactly the same thing, but in different terms.
  Mr. Jenkins: Of course, he did, but I am not aware that my right hon. Friend or any of my hon. or right hon. Friends have been talking about the gross pro-filigacy of local authorities which they want to curb, or that they have been talking in almost lyrical terms about the mystical concept of a free money market in which the supply of and demand for money is balanced in a way that is greatly conducive to the public good. Therefore, there is nothing illogical in the attitude of my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley, but there is something so

  1755
  illogical in the attitude of the hon. Member for Kidderminster as to make almost complete nonsense of his speech.
  I should like to turn my attention for a moment to the speech of the Financial Secretary. I understood that the hon. Gentleman was perhaps sugaring the pill a little for local authorities in so far as he was putting up the rates of interest at which they could borrow from the Public Works Loan Board by granting them the concession, about which there has been argument for a long time, whereby, if they wished, they should be allowed to borrow for rather shorter periods.
  So far as I could see, however, the Financial Secretary has substantially taken away a good part of that advantage by putting up the rates of interest on the medium and short-term loans to a much greater extent proportionately than he has put up the rate of interest on the long-term loans. So that the very thing that the local authorities wanted to do, which the hon. Gentleman has at last agreed that they should do, becomes, at the very moment of their being able to do it, a much less attractive proceeding from their point of view. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman will not put before the House to too strong an extent the view that that counterbalances the other unpleasant piece of news which he has for the House and for local authorities today.
  The other issue which arises directly on the Bill today is whether the general Government policy of dealing with the present difficulty by means of an increase in the Bank Rate is a desirable policy, and what are the objects which they have in mind; and whether passing on some part of that increase in rates of interest to local authorities will help to serve that purpose. It is difficult for us to judge of the effects which the Bill will have during the period in which it is to be in operation unless we can have from the Government spokesman a clear statement of what the Government have in mind about the objects that they wish to achieve by this increase in the Bank Rate which has just been announced, and by a general policy of tighter credit.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): Perhaps I may help the hon. Member. I gather that Mr. Speaker's Ruling was that a general economic discussion would be outside the scope of the Bill.
  Mr. Jenkins: I am certainly not proposing to embark upon any general economic discussion, but I was anxious—Iam sure you will agree with me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in taking the view that this would be both helpful and relevant—to have from the Government a statement of how an increase in the rates of interest charged to local authorities, which is directly envisaged in the Bill, would fit in with and help the objects that the Government have in view in bringing about higher interest rates and a tighter credit policy generally.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is what I said would not be in order. It would be a general economic discussion if we entered on that topic and I would hope that the Financial Secretary would not reply to it.
  Mr. Jenkins: Surely, in considering the Bill, we should have an idea from the Government of why, at the present time, they want local authorities to pay 4 per cent. instead of 3¾ per cent. for their long-term money. That is what I hope the Financial Secretary can address himself to when he replies.
  We really ought to know what object the Government have in view in doing this. Is it, for instance, because they wish merely to do a rather tidier piece of bookkeeping that they put up the rates of interest charged to local authorities to be, on their face, the same or broadly the same as those prevailing in the market, but that they do not wish local authorities to bear a greater financial burden, and that they will adjust, at any rate as far as housing is concerned, the housing subsidy exactly to compensate for the change which is taking place? If so, it is essential that we should know.
  If, on the other hand, that is not the case, if local authorities undertaking particular projects are to have to bear a heavier burden on their rates, we should also know what the Government have in mind. Do they wish local authorities to be more restricted in their capital projects than they have been until recently? Do they wish them to cut down on their housing and school programmes and, as one of my hon. Friends has said, on their programmes, for instance, for road development? If so, this is an extraordinary change of front on the part of the Government in a very short time indeed. It is very fast going even for the

  1757
  Chancellor of the Exchequer; and we certainly ought to know what the Government have in mind.
  I should have thought that if one were justified in increasing the rates of interest and having a tighter credit policy at the present time, one could best do it by reference to the need to get people to reduce stocks so that imports might not get out of hand.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is why I tried just now to stop the discussion from going too wide. The hon. Member is discussing general financial policy.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: May I put this point to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker? There is a great deal that we cannot understand unless, subject to what you may say, we are allowed to go beyond the immediate Ruling which you have just given. What eventuates is that when the Bank Rate was changed in October, 1953, the local authority rate remained ½ per cent. above the Bank Rate. Now the change announced means that the local authority rate is ½ per cent. below the Bank Rate; and in the rate for loans of up to five years there is almost 1 per cent. difference in the rate announced today. It is so startling that some reason ought to be given to us. It is impossible to discuss it unless something can be said about the general economic situation.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is just what I understood was ruled to be out of order. I think that we can deal with the effect that the rise in the Bank Rate has upon the Bill, but why it has to be raised or lowered, as the case may be, does not arise. That would be debating general economic policy.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: It does not appear to follow the Bank Rate. In one case the Bank Rate went down and the Board's rate was above it. Now the Bank Rate has gone up and the local authorities rate remains below it. There seems to be no rhyme or reason for the Government's action. The only possibility is that there is something in the present economic situation to explain why the Government have acted as they have now, as against the way in which they acted in October, 1953.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot remember what happened in October, 1953.
  Mr. Pannell: I do not know whether, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, you remember how the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) spoke about the profligacy of local authorities and went into all sorts of philosophical and other questions. I should have thought that after a speech as wide as that, the debate would be quite open.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is not the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South who sets the scope of debate. It is Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Jenkins: I understand that you are properly anxious, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to keep the debate strictly within the rules of order, but I hope that I can show you that I was keeping well within the rules when I started the topic which led to this series of points of order.
  I was asking—and it appears to be indisputably relevant—whether the intention in putting up the rate of interest which local authorities have to pay was that local authorities should cut down on their long-term capital expenditure, or whether, as is generally the alternative when one considers two forms of capital expenditure and the effect that any rate of interest may have on one or other or the two together, local authorities are to cut down on stocks which they may hold.
  The possible reason for making people cut down on stocks might be that it would quickly improve the import position. I certainly did not intend to develop that argument, and I shall not do so now, but before we give the Bill a Second Reading I should very much like to know the Government's answer to a fundamental question. Is it the view of the Government that local authorities, or, for that matter, anybody else, should cut down on long-term capital investment projects, or merely that they should make short-term adjustments, although it is not the case, as far as I am aware, that local authorities carry heavy stocks?
  That is the fundamental question which I should like to leave with the Financial Secretary, and to which I hope he will address himself. I hope that he will give a clear answer and not be too inhibited by what the Chancellor of the Exchequer may or may not say when he replies to Questions tomorrow.
  Mr. Nabarro: A very remarkable speech.
  5.24 p.m.
  Mr. C. W. Gibson (Clapham): Whatever criticisms one may have of points which have been raised in this debate, it is a fact that the Public Works Loan Board meets a public need and has done so for many years. Despite the caveman economics which we have been hearing from Edinburgh and other parts of the country, we cannot get away from that plain, central fact. Those who have given any thought at all to the history of our local government must agree that the work of the Public Works Loan Board has been of enormous assistance in financing the activities of our local authorities.
  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) does not now appear to be in his place, but when I listened to the panegyric which he gave to Edinburgh, I was reminded of the one occasion when that city went bankrupt.
  Sir W. Darling: I am in my place, and it is true that the city went bankrupt, but we have learnt our lesson.
  Mr. Gibson: The city did learn its lesson, and now it has a loan outstanding of about£26 million, which is exactly what has happened to every local authority that is doing its job. I hope that we shall not allow any caveman economics to deter us from a general policy of maintaining the Public Works Loan Board as the main avenue for local authorities in obtaining the capital which they need for their many great purposes.
  I was a little alarmed by one remark made by the Financial Secretary. I hope that I did not hear him aright, but I thought that he said that it was expected that the amount of loans taken up by local authorities would shrink in the near future. He illustrated the point by referring to the figure of£1,200 million which appeared in the 1953 Act and the figure of£1,000 million which appears in this Bill. That rather suggests that the policy behind the Bill is to compel local authorities to reduce their capital expenditure.
  I have very vivid recollections of my early days in local government when interest rates of 6, 7 and 8 and more per cent., were charged, and I know the terrific rate burden which those rates imposed on local authorities in the London area. It resulted in the virtual stopping of any road improvements, any
  1760
  house building, any improvements to schools, and much other social work which it is necessary for local authorities to carry on.
  I hope that, far from shrinking, the amount of capital which local authorities spend will increase. Indeed, if the vast schemes which the Tory Party has put in the shop window in the last few months are to be carried out, their capital expenditure must increase. There are, for instance, the vast road improvement schemes, a great part of which will fall on the rates. The Bill to derequisition houses will also impose very big extra burdens on local rates.
  There is also the maintenance of the housing drive. Apparently the Government are all in favour of that, though I am sometimes a little doubtful how far they want local authorities to go in building houses. They have certainly not said anything to the effect that local authorities should not be the main vehicle in the housing drive. If all these schemes are to go forward, there must be vast expenditure of capital by the local authorities.
  I was also struck by the Financial Secretary's announcement that 74 per cent. of the loans were for housing purposes. Nobody will suggest that the housing problem has been solved yet. A great many millions will have to be spent before we solve it. But the housing proportion of the loans made by the Public Works Loan Board will continue to be around 74 per cent. That being so, it is all the more important that we should know the effect of a rise in the rate of interest. Housing loans, as a rule, are on a 60-year basis. The rate of interest will be raised from 3¾to 4 per cent. Assuming that the local authorities cannot make any substantial reduction in house building costs, that will mean an increase in rent of at least 2s. a week, and probably a great deal more in many cases, for every tenant.
  I thought that I detected in the Financial Secretary's voice a rather hesitant note about the announcement which the Chancellor is to make tomorrow in reply to a Question of mine on housing subsidies—that is, assuming that the Question, which is at present numbered over 90, will be reached. Local authorities are entitled to know at the earliest possible moment and before the end of April

  1761
  whether there is to be any adjustment in the housing subsidies. My experience is that it usually takes many months before any kind of agreement is reached, and it may well be beyond April.
  There will be additional costs on the local rates, rates which are already in many cases reaching breaking point; but not because, as somebody has said, the money has been spent in a profligate way. I think that, on the whole, local authorities are extremely well run, and very efficient, I believe that we have a fine body of local government officers who keep us on straight and narrow lines financially. Sometimes they frighten me by the way in which they talk, but they are not profligate.
  The increase in local government expenditure which has gone on since the war has resulted in a rate burden which is becoming heavier, and I do not think we shall be able to change the policy that has resulted in this increased expenditure. Therefore, we are bound to look round for new sources of revenue, and I presume I would be ruled out of order if I were to start talking about that just now. But it emphasises all the more urgently the need for a clear statement to the local authorities before the end of next April as to what is to happen to the housing subsidy.
  If I may, I should like to express the opinion that, just as the Chancellor reduced the housing subsidy when the Bank Rate was reduced, so logically and in justice, when the Bank Rate is increased, he should increase the amount of subsidy to cover the increase entirely and not on the basis of 25 per cent. of the increase being borne by the local rates unless a new source of revenue, such as I have suggested is found. That would be unfair, and I hope that will be taken into consideration by the Chancellor when he makes his statement.
  Nevertheless, I want to say a word of appreciation for the easing of the rule which prevented local authorities dealing with loans on a more short-term basis. I was not at all clear, from what was said, as to exactly how much freedom or easement is going to be given by local authorities to take up loans from the Public Works Loan Board. I have never been able to understand why they cannot be permitted, when the opportunity arises in the normal market, to cash in or lower rates of interest, but apparently have got to go on paying the rate of interest fixed
  1762
  to the end of the 50 or 60 years' loan period.
  It seems to me that anything that would provide them with the opportunity of repaying a loan which is given on a rather high rate of interest by refloating it at a lower rate is worth while and of considerable assistance to local authorities. I am not at all sure as to the exact meaning of the Minister's words of a couple of hours ago, and I hope he will say something more about it when he winds up.
  There are a number of other hon. Members who want to speak on this Bill, and I want to conclude very briefly by calling attention to the enormous burden which interest rates already are having in London. Before this House just now there is a Money Bill for the London County Council, and even the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South would not call that body profligate, because it has kept its rates down to 11s. in the£.
  It is now finding itself in the position that it has to provide£8½ million every year for increased charges alone, and another£3¾ million for repayments, which means a very heavy charge on the backs of Londoners in having to find over£12 million a year for interest payments and redemption purposes. Unlike the hon. Member who advocated high interest rates, I am inclined to agree that interest is very largely usury and ought to be stopped, but that is not likely to happen. I think it is the duty of the State to give all the assistance possible to the local authorities when they are using funds for great public purposes.
  It is no use saying that we ought not to borrow money to provide these services, or that we should do without. We cannot do without better roads in all our large cities. We dare not stop the housing drive in any of our large cities, nor dare we stop building new schools. There are many other services which we dare not stop, all of which cost enormous sums of money, and all of them, unless we are prepared to pay for them out of the rates, as the L.C.C. once decided to do when they had determined to rebuild Waterloo Bridge—it was unnecessary to pay for that scheme out of the rates because the Government of the day climbed down and gave a grant—are going to cost considerable sums in interest if borrowed for long terms.

  1763
  I hope that we will enable local authorities to get their loans on very much easier terms. Therefore, I heartily support the idea of the Public Works Loan Board. While I do not disagree with the suggestion that if the local authorities want to go elsewhere for some of their money—my own does so at very convenient terms—by and large, for the big stuff, they ought to go to the nationalised Public Works Loan Board, and we ought not to fix a rate of interest which will make these loans so burdensome on local authorities that they may be tempted not to carry out these great improvement schemes like housing, school development and so on, which even the Tory Party are advocating all over the country——
  Mr. Kenneth Thompson: And carrying out.
  Mr. Gibson: They are not carrying them out; they are in the shop window. If they are not carried out, it will mean a reduction in the general standard of the living of this country. Therefore, I hope the Bill will go through, but I hope that the Minister will find it possible to reply to one or two of the points of criticism.
  5.38 p.m.
  Mr. A. Blenkinsop: I am surprised that we have not some other Ministers on the Front Bench opposite, because the proposals that have been outlined have such a considerable effect on them. When we were discussing this Measure on previous occasions, such Ministers as the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and others who are immediately concerned were present.
  These proposals have been outlined and the new rates of interest for local authorities operating them have such a considerable effect upon operations generally that it would be right if some intervention were to be made by, for example, the Minister of Housing and Local Government to show in what way these increased rates of interest for borrowing from the Public Works Loan Board will be counteracted by immediate increases in housing subsidies.
  In fact, the Government have put themselves in an extraordinary position by the new interest rate announced today. I think it is well known that the recent decision—it was quite a recent decision—to reduce the housing subsidy when the
  1764
  Bank Rate as such was reduced was to come into operation on 1st April. Surely it would have been possible for the Minister responsible to have made an immediate announcement this afternoon to the effect that the decision, which automatically will operate, unless something is done, to reduce the housing subsidy because of an earlier reduction in the Bank Rate, will now be held up.
  I am not asking that a new decision should be taken immediately. There must be discussion with local authorities, which we know from experience takes a considerable time. There is no reason, however, why the Minister should not announce now that, since the decision taken some months ago for housing subsidies to be reduced on 1st April is completely out of date as a result of this announcement, steps will be taken by the Government to rescind that Order which, by only a matter of four weeks, has not yet come into operation.
  I hope that before this debate is ended we shall have a statement, since it is not satisfactory that the matter should wait for possible answers to Questions which may be asked in the House tomorrow. We ought to have a statement today, because the matter is directly relevant to the Bill we are discussing. It is extraordinary that the Government have not provided us with an opportunity for a statement later this afternoon or even this evening.
  As I understand it, some local authorities are already able to take advantage of changes in the Regulations of the Public Works Loan Board which entitles them to borrow for housing purposes for shorter periods than the full 60 years. I believe, for instance, that my own authority is now able, on certain conditions, to borrow for 15 years for housing purposes. Yet according to the announcement made by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the interest rate for 15-year loans is to rise by ½ per cent. and not by ¼per cent., which is the rise for loans of over 15 years. Why should the position have been made more difficult for local authorities who borrow for medium term?
  It seems all the more extraordinary when this concession was made so recently. It is an example of the muddle into which the Government have got themselves by these continual changes of Bank Rate following continual changes in the Public Works Loan Board rate. When

  1765
  concessions have been made for the benefit of local authorities to enable them to borrow for shorter-term periods than has been possible in the past, we are entitled to a clear explanation of why part of that benefit should be cancelled by this extra charge for medium-term loans.
  This matter affects directly my own local authority of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Many loan projects tend to be undertaken by this authority for housing purposes within a short period. In one case the Government have just sanctioned the compulsory purchase of a large area of land in the city, but, if that is to go through, it will require a further loan operation, and the cost of that operation will rise unless we have an immediate understanding from the Government about it. This is not a matter than can wait.
  In Newcastle-upon-Tyne we are deeply concerned, as are many other authorities, about the availability of land for major housing projects, and it is of the utmost concern to the authority that it should be able to proceed without delay upon its works. It will be fantastic if these works are to be held up because of the financial changes which have been announced. So, before we leave this Bill, we should have a clear statement from the Financial Secretary or, preferably, from some other member of the Government more directly concerned with housing, showing how it is proposed to offset these new, onerous interest rates.
  Several of my hon. Friends have said it is fantastic at almost one and the same moment to give this House statements of great new projects of local authority and central government expenditure and then to have the announcement that apparently this expenditure is to be discouraged. We must know which horse the Government intend to ride. Is the increased expenditure by local authorities merely a phantom horse, led out for exhibition before the next election to give an appearance of reality to the good intentions of this Government? Is it that the reality consists of these new financial measures which, to some extent, make nonsense of the promises of encouragement of extra expenditure that have been made recently?
  The Government cannot have it both ways. They say it is necessary on financial grounds to have some restriction upon
  1766
  credit, which we understand is the intention of these proposals. Then they cannot at the same time say that they want to encourage local authorities to spend further large sums of money in accordance with recent announcements. Up to now the criticisms made from this side of the House have been relatively gentle. I cannot understand why they should have been so gentle, because the handling by the Government of this question of interest rates over the last few years is a matter of deep concern. The Government have pushed interest rates higher than they have been for many years. The Government are also open to severe censure because of the way in which they are continuously varying the rates and making it difficult, if not impossible, for local authorities to plan their work ahead with any assurance.
  I hope, therefore, that we shall have an early intervention from the Government Front Bench, and preferably that we shall have the attendance here of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, or his Parliamentary Secretary, to explain the effect of this announcement on housing operations, which is a matter of first concern not only to hon. Members of this House but to the population.
  5.49 p.m.
  Squadron Leader A. E. Cooper: It is astonishing to hear the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop) speaking in such criticism of this Government when we remember that it was he who, as Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health for a number of years in a Labour Government, was partly responsible, in conjunction with his right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Beyan), for much of the housing chaos which existed in this country and was still in existence when we took over.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot have heard his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) who, by implication, was praising the Labour Government for their constant, low rate of interest through the Public Works Loan Board.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: I am not responsible for observations which may be made by any hon. Member of the House; I merely express my own point of view. The fact is that there is far more

  1767
  flexibility for local authorities as a result of the financial record of the Conservative Government than was possible when right hon. Gentlemen opposite were responsible for the affairs of this country. Perhaps I may give an example.
  When under the previous Government loan sanction was granted and the authority went to borrow its money, it borrowed all against a development scheme. If it proposed to build 100 houses, it borrowed all the money for the 100 houses, and it is obvious that for a period at any rate no revenue was coming in from rents. It was, therefore, an expensive operation which was imposed upon local authorities by the Labour Government's financial policy. Because of that, rents were unnecessarily high.
  For several years when the Conservative Party was in Opposition it endeavoured to get some relaxation of that principle, and in the last two or three years it has been possible for local authorities to borrow money on short term from the banks at a very much lower rate of interest than was possible under the Labour Government. This has given local authorities a degree of flexibility which they have enjoyed very much.
  As I read it, the Bill has no relationship whatsoever to interest rates. I regard the Bill as simply making provision for extra finance for local government work, and in that respect it is to be commended.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: Has not the hon. and gallant Gentleman been present during the debate? The whole of the debate has so far been upon the increased rates of interest to local authorities announced by the Financial Secretary.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: I am surprised that the hon. and learned Member should make such statements as that, as (if they had any relevance to our discussion. The business before the House is the Second Reading of the Public Works Loans Bill. If hon. Gentlemen opposite have chosen this as an opportunity to attack the Government for their policy in increasing the Bank Rate, that is entirely their responsibility, but the plain fact is that what we are discussing is the Public Works Loans Bill, which is a Bill to provide extra funds to enable local authorities to carry out their work.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: On a point of order. Is it right, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who has hardly been present at all during the debate, having entered the Chamber only a few minutes ago, should say that hon. Members on this side of the House have been attacking the Government for increasing the Bank Rate? I have heard no attack on the Government—I have been here the whole time—for increasing the Bank Rate. The complaint has been the increase in interest rates to local authorities.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of order.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: I may not have been sitting in this particular place, not that it is of any relevance to the hon. and learned Gentleman, but if hon. Gentlemen opposite would be good enough to read some of the speeches which they have made, which appear on the tape machine, they might get an entirely different idea of what the debate is all about.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: If you had been here your speech would have been more relevant to the debate.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have been here for a very long time.
  Mr. Jay: May we at least assume, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that it is for you to give Rulings as to the scope of the debate and not hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Yes, and I hope that my Rulings will be carried out.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: Although it may be news to hon. Gentlemen opposite, the Bill is for the purpose of providing further funds to enable local authorities to carry out the work which is laid upon them by statute, and we should commend it.
  All local authorities are impressed by the manner in which the Public Works Loan Board carries out its duty. The greater flexibility with which these affairs have been conducted has been very noticeable during the last two years. I am sure that that greater ease can be laid at the door of my right hon. Friends in the Treasury by reason of the excellent manner in which the country's finances have been operated during the last three years.
  5.55 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton (Brixton): I shall not waste the time of the House by dealing with the speech by the hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, North (Squadron Leader Cooper). The hon. and gallant Member has not been in the House to hear the debate; he does not know what it is all about, and his speech had no relevance to anything that preceded what he said or will succeed his remarks. I propose to address myself to the speech of the Financial Secretary, which, unfortunately, the hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, North did not have the advantage of hearing; otherwise, he would not have made the speech that he did.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. There are two points to which I wish to refer. First, I do not happen to be the hon. Member for Ilford, North, and, secondly, I heard the speech of my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I wish hon. Members would not raise as points of order matters which are not points of order at all. They must know they are not.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: If what the hon. and gallant Member says is the case, his speech is all the more surprising. If he did hear the Financial Secretary, his speech is even more irrelevant and useless.
  I hope the Financial Secretary has read the speech that I made in 1951 during the Committee stage of the Public Works Loans Bill. He will find it in Hansard of 28th November, 1951. I will not recapitulate what I said, but merely give the hon. Gentleman the reference and hope that he will have a look at it. I also hope that he will look at a speech that I made in 1952. and I will again content myself by telling him that he will find it in Hansard of 19th November, 1952, also during the Committee stage of the Public Works Loans Bill.
  The argument can be very briefly summarised in a sentence, as follows:
  "The work carried out by this organisation "—
  I am referring to the Public Works Loan Board—
  "could just as well be carried out by the Treasury exercising general control over the operations of the National Debt Commissioners, who, in the course of their duties,
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  are just as capable, subject to Treasury control, of making the further advances that are necessary to local authorities."—[Official Report. 28th November, 1951; Vol. 494, c. 1,584.]
  Nothing at all has been done by the Government since that date, and we are treated to the same dreary repetition year in year out of the Bill coming before the House and the Public Works Loan Commissioners having placed at their disposal an additional amount which does not need to be placed at their disposal at all because they should have ceased to exist long ago. The Board is by now an anachronism.
  The Borough of Lambeth, of which the constituency that I represent forms part, is a very good customer of the Board because Lambeth believes in borrowing from official or Governmental sources. The Financial Secretary is not so long separated from local government as not to be able to recollect a number of matters connected with the London County Council and Metropolitan boroughs generally. I hope that now he has reached a more elevated station he will not forget the very many years during which he was associated with local government in London.
  The Metropolitan Borough of Lambeth—I quote the figures for 31st March, 1954—out of a total debt of£4·8 million, borrowed no less than£3·6 million from the Board, roughly 75 per cent., and the average rate of interest on that amount was 3·39 per cent. Unfortunately, that figure looks as if it will go up as a result of recent developments and the economic difficulties in which the present Government find themselves.
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member quoted a rate of interest of 3·39 per cent., but, as he and his party are advocates of the policy of cheap money, can he say why the Borough of Lambeth did not buy the infamous "Dalton" stock at 2½ per cent.?
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: The hon. Member seems to think that the Metropolitan Borough of Lambeth came into existence only about the time that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) was Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Metropolitan Borough of Lambeth came into existence a good time before that. The borough's finances included in this figure of£3 6 million covered a period of many years past. For

  1771
  instance, during the period of the Coalition Government, after the First World War, we had to borrow at 6 per cent. and 7 per cent. I am taking the average for all the loans over that period up to 31st March, 1954, and that figure is 339 per cent.
  I want to support what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop). It must surely be in the public interest, both locally and nationally, that local authorities should borrow on short-term rather than on long-term when they are in a position so to do. In those circumstances it strikes me as very odd that the interest rates announced by the Financial Secretary seemed to impose an additional liability upon those local authorities who want to borrow on short-term. The result is that local authorities who want to borrow for a period of up to five years will have the interest rate stepped up by seven-eighths per cent., whereas if such an authority wants to borrow money for fifteen years, or more, the interest rate has been stepped up by only ¼ per cent. That surely does not represent a proper appreciation of the position, nor does it give the right emphasis to local authorities who want to borrow money for a short term.
  The Financial Secretary will no doubt recall that as recently as 25th November last representatives of the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee called at the Treasury to discuss various aspects of the Public Works Loan Board's work. One of the points which they submitted to the Treasury was that local authorities should be permitted to enter into mortgages for terms of less than seven years. The Financial Secretary has stated that the points made on that occasion would be noted. The fact remains that local authorities are responsible bodies and should be allowed to conduct their finances in the way that they think best, without too much interference from the Treasury.
  I am not saying that the Treasury should not exercise the right of control, but the regulation to which I have referred seriously restricts local authorities in securing the best borrowing terms. I hope that the Financial Secretary and the Treasury will find it possible to allow local authorities to enter into mortgages for a period of less than seven years.
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  The second point which the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee representatives put to the Treasury was that the Board should be empowered to make maturity loans. The Financial Secretary said on that occasion that it was the aim of the Government to keep such borrowing to a minimum and that the present rule was of positive assistance in achieving that. However, the view of local authorities, in London at any rate, is that the Board should be empowered to make maturity loans. At present the Board may make loans repayable by annuities, or instalments only. That is a restriction which operates to the disadvantage of local authorities, especially those local authorities where the pooling of loans is in operation.
  The reply of the Financial Secretary was that such borrowing should be kept to a minimum. Local authorities do not understand this attitude of the Treasury. Where maturity loans are operated under the pooling principle, repayments by borrowing accounts—I am sorry to have put this in such technical language—are used to finance further capital expenditure, thus avoiding recourse to external loans. It must surely be to the advantage of all concerned that local authorities should not be compelled to resort to external sources for the loans that they may require.
  The third point that the local authorities in London wanted the Treasury to 'consider was that the Public Works Loan Board should be at liberty to make loans for periods less than the full term of the loan sanction.
  Sir W. Darling: Will the hon. Member read that again?
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: They wanted the Public Works Loan Board to be at liberty to make loans for periods less than the full period of the loan sanction.
  Sir W. Darling: That is not what the hon. Member said before.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: If the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) will allow me to explain, he will learn something that will prevent the City of Edinburgh going bankrupt in the future as it did on one occasion in the past. The hon. Member is full of curious ideas.
  The Financial Secretary was perhaps in the same difficulty as the hon. Member

  1773
  for Edinburgh, South, because he asked local authorities to prepare a paper setting out the concessions which they were seeking. I think that that was done. The Board is not at the moment at liberty to make loans for periods less than the full term of the loan sanction. There is a Treasury circular of 27th August, 1954, which relates to the matter, and that applies only in the case of loans for services for which there is either no Exchequer subvention, or any such subvention is not directly or indirectly related to the loan charges. I hope that the Financial Secretary will look into that, because here again the minimum borrowing period of seven years applies, save where sanction is given for a period of less than that.
  There is just one further point to make in conclusion. It is the desire of local authorities that local authorities' debts should have trustee status. I know that that does not arise under the Bill, but I very briefly mention it in passing so that the Treasury may think about it and perhaps make an announcement on the subject in due course. I hope that the Financial Secretary will pay some heed to the weighty representations that have been made to him by the organisations representing all the Metropolitan Borough councils, because if he grants their request, it will be for the advantage of local government, at any rate in London.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: The importance of the Bill can be judged by the figures given by the Financial Secretary when dealing with the amount of money that had been lent by the Public Works Loan Board under the 1953 Act. I think that he said that up to and including last month the total loan was about£413 million. He told us exactly the purposes for which the loans had been granted.
  We are dealing with a very important subject indeed from the point of view of the local authorities and the ratepayers. It was rather unfair that a colleague of mine from Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling), should, quite bluntly, attack local authorities, including those in Scotland, for profligacy. I began to wonder whether he was speaking as the proud past provost of Edinburgh, or just as that "bankrupt bookseller" whose memoirs
  1774
  I have heard of, or as the director of a Scottish bank. I am not entirely sure that the point of view he put forward would be accepted even in his local authority circles in Edinburgh.
  It was the customary homily which we get from the hon. Gentleman. We have heard him before on subsidies; he does not like them. He is the modern Samuel Smiles on this aspect of finance. However, when we consider the purposes for which the loans are required, it is unfair to accuse local authorities of profligacy and to suggest that they should wait until they can afford a project and then put the whole lot down. Edinburgh would not have been such a pleasant place today if that had been done, nor would some towns in Scotland.
  If we had to wait for local authority enterprise for the building of, say, the Forth Road Bridge—and he found considerable difficulty in getting people to offer to subscribe money for that purpose—then we should never get it at all. We should remember what we were told by the Financial Secretary. He said that the main purpose for which money was borrowed under the last Act was house building, for which about£250 million was loaned. Then he instanced education, roads, water and drainage. When we take into consideration that the Government have been proclaiming to the country just exactly what they intend to do about the extension of the building of rural schools, we must appreciate that a great burden of expenditure for that development will fall on the local authorities.
  The Minister of Transport told us recently that he could not go into a full detailed programme of what will happen under the great highways project because first he must consult the highway authorities concerned. These authorities, again, have a financial interest. When we consider these schemes of education, housing and roads which will benefit not only the present but future generations, it is right that they should be financed in this way. But, taking that into consideration, it is not out of the question, as the hon. Gentleman suggested, that we should consider exactly what will be the effect of the announcement made, not the other day, but today at the start of the debate, by the Financial Secretary when he said that the Government had decided that the

  1775
  period of instability was over and that they could raise the rate of interest from 3¾ per cent. to 4 per cent.
  What was the purpose of that? What will be the effect? As far as I can see, there can be only two effects. The first might be to deter expenditure by local authorities.
  Sir W. Darling: It might be a good thing.
  Mr. Ross: To say that it might be a good thing does not mean anything at all. In fact, we have been told by the Government that the expenditure on roads is a good thing, that it is urgent and it must be done, and that it would be profligate to allow the neglect of our system to go on much longer. The same applies to education. There is no doubt that by deterring expenditure the Government will be deterring something that should have been embarked upon long ago. I do not see any justification for that. It cannot properly be justified.
  Before any of these projects can be embarked upon they must first be authorised by the Government Departments. Therefore, the profligacy, if there be any, can only be laid at the door of the Government Department and not of the local authority, because the Department must sanction a scheme before a loan is made. That is the first weakness. It may well deter local authorities from embarking upon schemes which are desirable from the point of view of the community.
  In Scotland we have had a Commission considering the question of suggested rating changes. One of the first things it said before recommending any change at all was that the local rating should not be overloaded. It was implied that it was already overloaded. It is undoubtedly the position that any future borrowing by a Scottish local authority will add a further burden to Scottish rates, because the rate of interest has been increased from 3¾ per cent. to 4 per cent. and we have a position in which rates are already overloaded.
  The Commission suggested that the rates are overloaded, and the Government are about to put a further burden on the local authorities, which, in considering the desirability of a project and its financial feasibility, may well mean that the pro-
  1776
  gress which we should be making in education, rates and house building may be stopped.
  The other feature is that it makes it more costly for the local authority to go ahead. Therefore, again the burden falls directly. If it is housing, the burden falls upon the tenants of local authority houses. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South should know that the rents of local authority houses in Scotland are too high, and we are in a favourable position compared with England in that when such subsidies were cut in England they were not cut in Scotland. We were promised by the Government that the question would be reconsidered, and it may well be that the Secretary of State for Scotland will announce tomorrow that the subsidies will be cut.
  We are getting into a rather chaotic position in the one country compared with the other. The Government ought to make the position clear. What do they aim at in making changes in the interest rates? What do they consider the effect will be? Looking at the position objectively, I am certain that there will be two effects. One will be to deter certain local authorities, for no other reason than that it will be too costly; and the other will be to make it more costly and to add a greatly increased burden to the rates of already hard-pressed local authorities.
  6.19 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Thompson: Unlike almost everyone who has spoken, I make no claim to be an expert in local authority finance. Nevertheless, I welcome the Bill, because I have an admiration and respect for the work of the Board which discharges a difficult task in an impartial and most successful way, and because I believe that the Board's facilities, alongside the facilities which we were able to make available a little while ago for local authorities to go to the free money market, provide something nearly approaching a good workable system of raising money for local authority capital projects.
  My experience as a member of an important local authority for a fairly long number of years convinced me that almost every project which comes before a local authority committee, whether it be the parks and gardens committee, the children's committee, the education committee or the watch committee, is in its broad approach a desirable one. The

  1777
  members can range from dressing room facilities and sports fields to the building of new police garages to serve the outer areas of the cities, and back again to technical college extensions, and so on.
  Look where we will, the whole range of ideas that come before the members of a local authority committee are, almost without exception, in themselves quite desirable. The great problem to be settled by the members of a local authority—and settle it they do month after month—is the order of priority, since all these ideas cannot be embarked on at once. Even were such a local authority committee to decide to go on with all of them, the capital resources would never be available. There has to be some process of sifting the most desirable, urgent and essential from those which can take a lower place in the order of priority.
  Part of the proposal made this afternoon by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will result in a careful appraisal of the priorities which local authorities wish to see made effective. It is up to local authorities to make that first decision—whether it is to be a new garage, or an extension of their slum clearance programme, or their school building programme——
  Sir W. Darling: Or none of them.
  Mr. Thompson: —or, as my hon. Friend interjected, not any of these things at all because the local authority has decided that it cannot afford them.
  I believe the system by which local authorities now can raise money—either through this Public Works Loan Board at 40 to 60 years at 4 per cent., or through the money market, if their condition is such that they can get it better and cheaper that way—probably secures for them the best of both worlds. My real complaint, and what I regard as the real weakness of the present position of local authorities in this country, is that they have not been left with enough responsibility for the decisions they take in making these orders of priority. Most of the decisions reside in the Government Department which presides over that section of local authority affairs. It is not the councillors sitting in committee who have the final and absolute say, but Government officials who are able to condition the minds of members of a local authority long before it considers the projects.
  Mr. Pannell: I do not wish to defend the Government, but before the hon. Gentleman indicts the Government, I hope that he will get the record straight. Some 70 per cent. of all local authority costs are in wages and salaries, which are regulated by trade union agreements over which the local authorities or the Government have little control. Unless one understands that part of the picture, one can never understand the rising figure of rates.
  Mr. Thompson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding us of what happens to the revenue expenditure of local authorities. But the House is now devoting its attention to the capital expenditure of local authorities, which is an entirely different matter.
  It would seem to me that we could get the best of both these worlds were we to allow local authorities more control over their own financial operations. Then a local authority, large or small, which conducted its affairs with economy and efficiency, with the kind of far-sighted judgment to which my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South referred—with parsimony if it felt so disposed—would be able to by-pass the high interest rates of the Public Works Loan Board—if that is what they are—and, with a shining reputation for economy and efficiency, obtain better terms in the free money market. That should be the real standard by which a local authority could judge how far it could go.
  In such conditions a vigorous, alert and efficient local authority would get the best results for itself, in terms of the price at which it could borrow money, and give the best service to its electors in terms of the amount and number of schools, housing estates, and so on, which it could provide. I should like to see an examination of the whole process by which local authorities discharge their responsibility as collectors of income and investors of capital resources.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: This Bill, which the hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, South (Squadron Leader Cooper) thought fair to remind us was concerned only with allotting£500 million and placing it at the disposal of the National Debt Commissioners, may in fact raise quite profound, far-reaching and disturbing matters. One thing to

  1779
  which I wish to draw the attention of the House is the effect on rural authorities.
  For years now we have been endeavouring to increase the food production of our land. One of the difficulties which we have encountered is the falling off in the number of farm labourers employed upon the land, the difficulty of attracting men to work on the land and keeping them there. Mine is mainly a rural constituency, though people are inclined to think of Crewe only as a railway town. In fact it covers 20 by 18 miles of the best of rural Cheshire—where we make the best Cheshire cheese. The rural authorities in that area have been concerned with the problem of attracting farm workers to the land.
  One of the chief problems is that in these agricultural areas there are tied cottages to which the workers object. The Labour Government were unable to abolish the tied cottage and this Government have been unable to do so, although the Agricultural Workers' Union has pressed for it and demanded it all through their existence. This is relevant to our discussion today and I must make the point. We were told, "If you will bide your time we will solve the problem of the tied cottage by the building of houses by local authorities." A number were built in my constituency, and now the great difficulty is that the farm labourer cannot afford to pay the high rents charged for those houses, even at the present rates.
  Now I come back to the consequences of this Bill, and the announcement made today by the Financial Secretary who announced an increase in the interest rates on money borrowed by local authorities. The rate which he has announced will affect rural houses to the extent of 2s. 6d. a week. Farm labourers are at present only barely able to pay the rents demanded, and if they are called on to pay another 2s. 6d. a week, I do not think that, even were they built, the houses would be occupied.
  The Government have raised the Bank Rate, with all its consequences, and the interest rate, and I appeal to them to state what they propose to do about the subsidy. The sooner they tell the rural authorities in Cheshire that they will make up this 2s. 6d. a week by a further subsidy, the better those authorities will be pleased.
  6.29 p.m.
  Mr. Niall Macpherson: I do not intend to follow the observations of the hon. and learned Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen). My first question is related to the time for which this Bill is expected to run. The Financial Memorandum says that the sums
  "may suffice for rather longer than the period of approximately 12 months which was usual in the years prior to the passing of the Public Works Loans Act, 1953."
  As I understand it, the amount drawn in the year ended April, 1954, was£300 million, which was short of the budgetary provision by about£100 million.
  My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary now tells us that in the current year up to date, or practically up to date, the loans granted have amounted to£413 million. There is obviously a very much higher level of borrowing than there was in the previous year. I wonder if my hon. Friend can relate that fact to the announcement which he made with regard to the interest rates, and also give his estimate—in the light of that announcement—of the amount of borrowing to be expected in the next financial year.
  I suppose that we should not have spent so long upon this Bill had it not been for the announcement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week. Would my hon. Friend say how far the announcement made today with regard to interest rates was related to that made by the Chancellor?
  Mr. Pannell: I must correct the hon. Member. I think that I have taken part in all these debates since this Government came to power. As a matter of fact, the debates have all taken a fair amount of time, because the Government have pursued this erratic policy of juggling with the interest rates. Within a month of coming into power the Government put up all municipal rents by 4s. 4d. a week, as a result of increased interest rates.
  Mr. Macpherson: That reinforces my point. If there had not been an alteration of this kind——
  Mr. Pannell: It has happened every year.
  Mr. Macpherson: That is because there had been alterations in the past.

  1781
  The Bank Rate is one of the principal instruments for influencing our economy and finances under the present Government. That being so, it is bound to vary from time to time. The underlying question is whether the borrowing rates of local authorities should vary—not necessary pari passu but at least in relationship—with the Bank Rate.
  The hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) suggested that it created hardship for local authorities when interest rates went up. It is true that if some local authorities borrowed money just before the rate went up and others did so just afterwards, the latter might feel that they had missed the boat, just as the hon. Member would if he were raising a loan from his own bank. We must bear in mind the fact that most local authorities go to the Board several times a year. I gather that urban districts average seven times per year.
  That being so, the loan rate can be spaced out fairly evenly over a period, and the fact that it alters from time to time does not have the same effect as it would if local authorities went to the Board only once every three or four years. Local authorities know in advance that borrowing rates will vary from time to time, and they can to some extent take internal measures to even out the effect to some extent.
  The Bank Rate has risen considerably more than the rise in the long-term borrowing rate announced today. I should like my hon. Friend to tell us the relationship between those two rates. Is it that the Treasury is making its contribution in evening out the situation? My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) seemed to think that there should be no change at any time in borrowing rates to local authorities. He thought that if the market rate were lower local authorities could all go to the market for their loans, and if it were higher, they could go to the Board. I scarcely think that that system would commend itself universally.
  It has been suggested that the purpose of this alteration is to slow down public works, such as house building. If it were the intention to slow public works down very considerably, I am sure that my hon. Friend would have made an announcement of an alteration in the interest rate
  1782
  at least commensurate with that in the Bank Rate.
  Mr. Pannell: The reason why this small change of ¼ per cent. is made is that the interest rate of the Board is tied up with housing subsidies.
  Mr. Macpherson: I was coming to that point, but if it had been the intention to arrest the rate of house building an increase of£ per cent. would not have been announced today.
  Mr. Pannell: It makes a difference of 2s. a week.
  Mr. Macpherson: This change appears to be somewhat of a token increase because the Bank Rate has increased. I hope that my hon. Friend will comment upon that suggestion.
  I should also like him to tell the House something more about the short and medium-term borrowing rates. If my information is correct, the short-term borrowing rate, up to 3rd June last year, was 25/8 per cent. I gather that although the long-term rate is now to be 4 per cent. the short-term rate is to be 3⅛ per cent., and the medium-term rate 3¾ per cent., as against 3½ per cent. to last June. I hope that my hon. Friend will tell us the reason for these variations.
  I might try to anticipate his answer-probably wrongly—and say that the purpose which the Government had in mind was to encourage the kind of purposes for which local authorities need long-term loans rather than those for which they need short-term loans. If that is so, it would account for the fact that the increase in the long-term borrowing rate is fairly low.
  Mr. Pannell: That covers house building.
  Mr. Macpherson: Yes.
  I understand that the length of the loan is related to the life span of the asset. It may also be the case, as the hon. Member suggests, that there is to be a compensating housing subsidy. We shall hear about that tomorrow. That would also affect the result, on local government finances, of the increase in the borrowing rate.
  These are points upon which the House would like a little further information. I am quite certain that the underlying question is whether the borrowing rates ought

  1783
  to vary when the Bank Rate varies. My view is that it would be impossible to insulate local authorities altogether from measures taken for the economic and financial good of the country, and that there is bound to be some variation.
  6.40 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: I should like to take up the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson) on one point which I think he missed. The housing subsidies were recast on the last fall of interest rate which, I think, will take effect on 1st April, 1955. At that time, the Government envisaged a steady interest rate. In the interim period, the rate of interest has been increased. If it had been put up to the full 1 per cent., then the local authorities would have said, "This bears no relevance because the housing subsidies were negotiated with the local authorities association on the assumption of a certain interest rate." If the interest rate had been put up on houses of£2,000 by 1 per cent. this would have meant, on the information which I have, an increase of at least 7s. per week per house.
  A local authority never borrows money until it needs it. Very often it uses its internal balances to lean upon and then goes to the Public Works Loan Board. Local authorities fund their enterprises—raise money locally according to their prestige and their securities; but they raise locally all the short-term money which they want. Yet the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) spoke about Edinburgh doing this as though that was something marvellous. I believe that one of the first things which the Government did on the outbreak of war was to stop local authorities going into the market and mopping up short-term money, because they wanted it for war purposes. This policy of mopping up short-term money which was carried on by successive Chancellors of the Exchequer forced local authorities to go to the Public Works Loan Board.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) introduced his cheap money policy at the time when the local authorities were forbidden to mop up short-term money in their own localities, and his cheap money policy must be considered in that context. I can remember the case of a small local authority responsible for some 40,000 people
  1784
  for which the change in monetary policy whereby they could not take up short-term money meant a 2d. rate.
  It is true to say that many of the consents for borrowing are taken up only when tenants are actually in the houses. Therefore, a severe upward movement in the Bank Rate and a smaller upward movement in the Public Works Loan Board's rate upsets the estimated cost on the rates. A local authority will long previously have estimated what a house would cost to build and what the loan would involve. No local authority, whatever its political colour, likes to advance the rents after it has entered into an agreement with the tenant possibly only a month or two earlier.
  The Public Works Loan Board bases its loans over the full maturity period of the houses, which may be 60 years for the houses and possibly 80 years for the land. If the Financial Secretary had said today that the interest rate was to be increased by 1 percent., the local government authorities would have to say that their present agreements were null and void and would have to enter into fresh agreements. A change in the Bank Rate causes an avalanche of applications for loans to the Public Works Loan Board. Those who get in on the ground floor—by an early post—may do so at a lower interest rate than those who apply later. I suggest that that is not the kind of public finance which we want. It is not conducive to dignity or efficiency. Local authorities require some evidence of stability in the Bank Rate.
  Sir W. Darling: How are we to arrange stability. We must have some basis.
  Mr. Pannell: That is true. If the charges are not paid in interest, they have to be paid in subsidies. There ought to be some reasonable, sensible, middle way. I have protested before in this House that housing subsidies are running at a ridiculous rate, bearing in mind all the circumstances. On a previous occasion, I gave the House some figures. They were the highest figures which I thought I could mention with accuracy, but one of my hon. Friends who has great knowledge of London County Council told me that my figures of housing subsidies were low. We have to bear in mind that interest rates have always to be balanced against the subsidies.

  1785
  I want to refer to something said earlier by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South. He and I are old friends in this field. I remember the first conference of the Institute of Municipal Treasurers to which I went. He had a public debate with the City Treasurer of Glasgow—on the burden of the rates—who is now a noble Lord in another place, who said that he did not like the use of the word "burden." He said that it was an evil, question-begging word which suggested that people, were being charged for something which they should not pay. I remember the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South entertaining us then, as he did this afternoon, on the subject of the economic prudence of Edinburgh compared with other towns.
  Let me give the hon. Gentleman figures, which may surprise him, of the outstanding loan-debt. He made the point that Edinburgh raises its money locally on the good will of the tradesmen and burgesses. He made no allowance for the difference in rating law between England and Scotland which enables Edinburgh to do things that London cannot. A Scottish city can rate for a contingency years ahead, whereas budgeting for the future is illegal in England. We must not budget above the figure that we need. The difference between a person and a local authority in law is that an individual can do anything he likes within the law, while a local authority can do nothing unless the law allows it. Scottish local authorities are in a favourable position.
  I got a return of the outstanding loan-debt of the local authorities for 1954, but I could not find the return for Edinburgh. I got the figures from the Institute of Municipal Treasurers, and they show that the outstanding loan-debt of Edinburgh in 1953 was£26 million. The population of the city is 475,000. The outstanding loan-debt of London is nearly£204 million. The population of London is 31/3 million. That shows that the loan debt per head of London is very much lower than that of Edinburgh.
  Sir W. Darling: I understand that the hon. Gentleman is congratulating me on putting forward a Tory argument in a Socialist way, with all its compulsions.
  Mr. Pannell: I want to mention some of the other things that the hon. Gentleman said. He was asked a question by
  1786
  the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), who is not as acquainted with local authority affairs as is the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South, as was exemplified by his speech. He said "Sell your houses."
  Sir W. Darling: It was suggested by the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) that local authorities had no stocks at their disposal except a few bags of cement, a few wheel barrows and trenching materials. I said they had an important asset; let them sell their houses.
  Mr. Pannell: Let me refer to the right hon. Member who represents Bromley, a place which I prefer to Edinburgh. The Conservative council there rejected unanimously the idea that it should sell its houses. It was moved by the very human consideration that every council house sold is one less in the rent pool.
  We must ask whether the Bank Rate is to stop where it is. That point is relevant to the argument that I am advancing that house rents should not depend upon a fluctuating Bank Rate or upon Government financial policy.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Why should council tenants be allowed to hive off from the general economic conditions of the country?
  Mr. Pannell: I will listen to the noble Lord on matters like German rearmament, subjects on which he has authority to speak. His intervention shows that he has not an idea on this subject. Every council tenant during the inter-war years received from public funds a subsidy averaging 4s. 9d. per week. Now he is receiving about 13s. I am concerned with balancing that amount. Rents are high enough, in all conscience. I have already said in this House that the subsidies should be offset by the proper renting of garages. It is no use the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South saying that that is something novel. In another context I would be prepared to argue that point. I would refer hon. Members who want to read the argument to my last speech on housing subsidies. I basked in reflected glory on the following day when the broadcasting panel discussed that subject.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster wanted an answer from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury as to how much

  1787
  of the global sum borrowed by local authorities was from the Public Works Loan Board and how much from the open market. The figure is not difficult to find, because the Institute of Municipal Treasurers publishes the information from year to year. I would like to refer to an idea which I think is in the minds of some hon. Members, that the bulk of the money borrowed is raised from the Public Works Loan Board. That is not true, as I will show.
  In Leeds, for example, which shows up quite well with Edinburgh, we find that the outstanding loan debt is£38,800,000. It has about£11½ million of stock, or rather less than that—£11,346,000. It has borrowed£14| million from the Public Works Loan Board, and carries£136,000 in mortgage instalments and annuities. Other loans and interest on bank overdrafts amount to£1,750,000, which is very much the same sort of thing as in the case of Edinburgh. This is rather curious, and I looked up the figures which I have given because they are rather typical of the boroughs. I have quoted Leeds, not only because I happen to represent it here, but also because it is typical.
  It is also rather curious, if we take the case of the City of London, which is a far heavier borrower from the Public Works Loan Board than the other cities. It so happens that the City of London, with a population of just over 5,000, has an outstanding loan debt of over£13 million, which rather disproves the argument of these business gentlemen who think that they ought to have two hon. Members in this House. It is even more curious that, out of the£13 million, over£9,500,000 has been borrowed from the Public Works Loan Board. I ask hon. Members to take this on trust, but, in effect, the City of London is a comparatively smaller borrower from outside sources than the great provincial cities normally are. I do not know whether the citizens of London are happy about that.
  This question of the outstanding loan debt is a very considerable one for the local authorities. I can remember when I was standing for election to a local authority in about 1938 writing a pamphlet which I called "Turn The Spendthrift Tories Out." My friends and I wrote that pamphlet on the idea that
  1788
  one small local authority was paying£10,000 a year in interest on outstanding loans and was not financing enough from revenue.
  Sir W. Darling: Socialists are always borrowing.
  Mr. Pannell: That is all right, but this was a Tory council; I said that the title of the pamphlet was "Turn the Spendthrift Tories Out," because they had been in power for 16 years.
  Manchester has a standing resolution that it must spend a 6d. rate from revenue on capital undertakings, and it is completely wrong to suggest that Labour-controlled authorities generally borrow more than Tories. If we take the case of borough authorities, it is the Tories who improvidently borrow money because they worship a low rate figure and not the Socialists.
  The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. K. Thompson), who is not now in his place, sought to correct me by saying that I was getting revenue expenditure mixed up with capital expenditure. I was not. What I did say was that when we criticise local authorities for squander mania, we ought to bear in mind that the local authorities have very little room in which to manoeuvre, because 70 per cent. of the money raised by the rates in any city—and I am not making a political point—usually goes in salaries and wages, which are fixed by trade union agreement or some other basic agreement over which the authority itself has no control at all.
  As a matter of fact, "The Times" today refers to the depredations of town clerks in that direction. It is a most curious set-up whereby town clerks not only increase their own salaries as employees, but, as representatives of the employers, vote themselves an increase of salary; but that is another question altogether.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: We do that, too.
  Mr. Pannell: The noble Lord says that we do that also. If he is raising the question of Members' salaries, I would remind him that John Stuart Mill said that an unpaid legislature and judiciary are things essentially aristocratic. If that is so, I should expect the noble Lord to support the aristocracy; but we will leave it at that.

  1789
  The hon. Member for Walton also spoke about priorities. From the way he spoke, one might imagine that local authorities could decide these priorities in a highly objective frame of mind. They cannot. Not only do they pay 70 per cent. of their rate income in wages and salaries, which are obligations laid upon them, but, of course, all the local services from the cradle to the grave are also obligations upon them. If a sewerage scheme "goes west," they cannot say "We will put it down the list for five years hence." It must be attended to at once, and there is usually a great deal of fuss if it is not immediately remedied.
  When we consider new estates being opened up or new towns being built, whether they are represented here by Conservative hon. Members or not, these are the places where there are home owners in process of buying their own homes—the sort of lusty neighbourhood breeding children as well as reading books, which very soon will produce demands for services in regard to child welfare and schools. It is worth while remembering that education is now the highest of all the items in the rates. That sort of thing will have its reflection in the cost of our schools, and we need to be reminded of it.
  It is the fact that for three centuries the highest precept in the levying of a rate was that for the poor law, but that has gone. Possibly, it is a measure of our progress that the highest precept today is that for the education rate, and local authorities all over the country are complaining about it.
  I do not want to go into the whole question of the grant system, but hon. Gentlemen opposite are most anxious to lend their support to the position of the grammar school teacher as a person holding a position of special responsibility. They say they want to increase his salary. They ought to remember the fact that 70 per cent. of a local authority's income goes in salaries and wages, and, of course, there is also the question of priorities in regard to new schools to be built. People will put up with a good deal, with bad housing conditions and bad services, but they will still insist on the best possible education being provided for their children.
  Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House know very well that if they want
  1790
  notes for a speech, they can best tug at the heart-strings of their audiences by making speeches about the provision of better education for children today than the parents of those children ever knew. That is the sort of thing to produce an effect, and not even the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South is immune from it. As Lord Provost of Edinburgh, he graced many an undertaking of this sort, and, though he may deplore, as he did on a previous occasion, that local authorities are only too prone to put up expensive public conveniences, he did not include education as coming within that designation.
  It is the same in regard to houses and roads. Quite recently, there was a fatality in my own constituency, and the Ministry of Transport were as apprehensive about it as I was, but local authorities cannot be objective bodies in the same way as this House can be objective. Local authorities have the pressure of local circumstances and of the local population upon them to provide, in regard to education, that a child should have the same chance as between one local authority area and another. The hon. Member for Walton was completely wrong when he seemed to think that local authorities had plenty of room for manoeuvre. They have not. And now, of course, we have circumscribed them with regard to an expensive interest rate, which will increase the rates throughout the country and the cost of services generally.
  All this is in line with everything else that the Government have done. They have been clumsy and ham fisted. Obviously, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not anticipate this debate when he made his announcement on Thursday. When my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mr. I. O. Thomas), in one of his familiar points of order, raised the question of the effect that this would have upon the interest rates of local authorities, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not very forthcoming. It is perhaps as a result of that point of order that the increase has been cut down to one quarter of 1 per cent. this afternoon.
  I hope that consideration will be given to keeping municipal rents as low as possible and freeing them from all the upward turns and trends, and that we adopt a system that tends to harmonise interest rates with housing subsidies on a more reasonable and sensible basis.
  7.11 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: It is clear that there are a good many questions to be answered, and anxieties to be allayed, by the Financial Secretary before we part with the Bill. I should like to ask a few more questions. We are discussing the Bill at an opportune time, because it was only last Thursday that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after all his optimistic speeches about recovery, prosperity, and all the rest, flew into a panic and imposed the 1 per cent. rise in the Bank Rate, making a rise of 1½ per cent. in the last four weeks.
  What effect will that have on local authority finance? The Chancellor himself said that it would depend on the structure of interest rates generally. That in itself is rather discouraging, for we have seen already, for instance, the Treasury Bill rate go to the extraordinary high level of 3¾ per cent. It has actually gone up by nearly 2¼ per cent. since November, when these movements began. Incidentally, on the outstanding£5,000 million or so of Treasury bills, that appears to represent, at an annual rate, an increase of£120 million a year of Government expenditure in the Budget. This in itself is a sign of what a curious and blunt instrument this high Bank Rate policy is.
  What is to be the effect on local authority borrowing? That, I think, is our main anxiety today. The Labour Government kept the rate of interest on public works loans down to 3 per cent. for a long period, and gave to local authorities the stability for which the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) was asking earlier. The present Government, at the beginning of their term of office, put up the Public Works Loan Board rate at one time actually to 4¼ per cent., and at a time when the Bank Rate was lower than it is at present. That would have meant a rise of about 5s. or even 10s. in council house rents, had the Government not in the end given way to pressure from this side of the House and agreed to make up the difference by means of the housing subsidy.
  We have been told today by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that the rate for public works loans of over 15 years is to go up from 3¾to 4 per cent., although for shorter period loans it is to go up by a good deal more. That is
  1792
  grave and serious news for local authorities, and, so far as we yet know, for council house tenants.
  I should like the Financial Secretary to tell us whether this rise in the Public Works Loan Board rate of interest will stop at 4 per cent. I see several reasons why, under the Government's present policy, it might well go higher. First, I understand that the yield on gilt-edged securities has risen by a good deal more than ¼ per cent. since this new spate of increases in the Bank Rate began. Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance today that, at any rate in the present year, the Public Works Loan Board rate for loans of over 15 years will not go above 4 per cent.?
  The Chancellor said that it would all depend on the behaviour of the gilt-edged market. He succeeded in producing a drop of four points in gilt-edged in one day last week, which is almost an all-time record, and which came rather oddly from a Chancellor who only a few months before had been advising the country to invest in success.
  Even taking the rise at the ¼ per cent. figure which we have been given today, I wonder whether the Financial Secretary will confirm what has been said by a number of my hon. Friends who are experts on local authority finance, and housing finance in particular, that even this rise means an addition of 2s. or 2s. 6d. to council house rents. I was particularly struck by what was said by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen) about the lamentable effect on rural housing. He said that in his area such an increase might even mean an inability to let new council houses—or, at any rate, some council houses—at all.
  Our main anxiety is to hear from the Financial Secretary today whether this increase, so far as housing is concerned, will or will not be covered by an increase in the subsidy. It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to say that we may hear this news from some other Minister tomorrow or next week, or at some other time if a certain Question is reached. That is not good enough. The House ought to be satisfied on this point before it gives a Second Reading to the Bill. If the difficulty is that the Financial Secretary thinks that it is not for him but for the Minister of Housing or the Secretary

  1793
  of State for Scotland to give the answer, we should be perfectly content to hear it from those Ministers, and not from the hon. Gentleman, in the course of this debate if he prefers it that way. So far as I know, there is nothing to prevent those Ministers participating in the debate.
  The Financial Secretary knows as well as I do that local government elections are on the way. Some of us, speaking on platforms in those elections, will be asked about the effect of these changes on local authority finance and on the rents of council houses in particular. If the Financial Secretary cannot give any assurance today, people are bound to think that this latest change in Government policy will mean higher rents, which come, do not let us forget, on top of rises in rents for private houses due to the Government's Housing Repairs and Rents Act; and on top, incidentally, of food prices at the highest level ever known in this country.
  Nor will the effects end there. The Financial Secretary said that 24 per cent. of the loans are for purposes other than housing. Therefore, even if the subsidies for housing are raised, there will still, it seems, be an increased cost for local authorities on roads, schools, and other types of development. That, surely, must mean an increase in rates, as well as an increase in rents, as a result of this dear money policy.
  Is the Financial Secretary satisfied that the figure of£1,000 million for the upper limit on advances plus commitments, which is introduced into the Bill instead of the previous higher figure of£1,200 million, is sufficient? In his speech, the hon. Gentleman gave as a reason for a reduction the change in procedure which, he thought, would mean that local authorities would not wish to borrow so much from the Public Works Loan Board. But I should like to know whether the decision to lower the figure to£1,000 million was taken before the decision to raise the Bank Rate, with all its consequences.
  The Financial Memorandum to the Bill states that
  "On the assumption that the sums proposed will be supplemented by Local Authority borrowing from sources other than the Public Works Loan Commissioners… "
  not so much will be available, or at least the time will not be so short. Does the Financial Secretary really think that in
  1794
  present conditions local authorities will find it so easy to go to the City of London and obtain their finances in some other way than through the Public Works Loan Board?
  I notice that the Bill was ordered to be printed on 16th February. That, of course, was some time before the change in the Bank Rate was announced to the House. Can we know whether the Financial Secretary, whose name is on the Bill, had been told about the Chancellor's in tentions at the time when he fixed the figure of£1,000 million? It looks rather as if somebody on the Stock Exchange knew about the Bank Rate change beforehand. We should like to know whether the Financial Secretary was favoured with that knowledge, as well as the Chancellor. If he was, ought he not to have had a larger figure in the Bill than£1,000 million?
  I think that what my hon. Friends have said about the effects of the Bill, on housing in particular, and on roads and schools, illustrates what a blunt instrument this high Bank Rate is in its influence on economic policy. So far as local authority projects are concerned, I should like to know the answer to the question which my hon. Friend the Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) asked. Is it or is it not the Government's purpose, in imposing this higher interest rate on local authorities, to slow down housing, road, and school developments and other programmes of which we have heard in the last few weeks?
  If the Government take no action to correct it, a mere policy of dear money falls on the just and the unjust alike. It falls on housing just as much as on building cinemas, and there is now, of course, no building licensing. It falls on schools as well as on luxury flats, on vital industrial development as well as on excessive stocking up by industry. It also falls on development plans for road and rail, of which we have heard so much in the last few weeks, as well as on unnecessary projects like the Government's flippant and extravagant project for commercial television.
  Is it the intention of the Government that all that should happen? Is it intended that this curb should fall on the purchase of furniture by newly-married couples setting up house, as well as on

  1795
  the purchase of less necessary things like television sets and cars, or whatever they may be? So far as we have been advised, this rise in the interest rate for public works loans will affect the whole of municipal activity.
  We hope that the Financial Secretary will be able to answer some of these questions, and at least be able to assure us about the Government's intentions concerning the housing subsidy. If the hon. Gentleman cannot answer any of them, we are bound to conclude that the country is confronted with an arbitrary and indiscriminate dear money policy, which will cause a great deal of injustice to those who least deserve to be treated in this way.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. H. Brooke: I ask the leave of the House to reply to a debate of which I have heard every word, despite the earlier kind invitation of the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) to go away and take some refreshment if the debate went on for too long. I have no complaint whatsoever about the manner in which the debate has been conducted and the interesting way in which various points have been made. I will endeavour to answer as many questions as possible.
  I hope that I shall be in accord with the general feeling of the House if I replied to a number of specific questions arising from the Bill which were asked of me and then proceed to deal with the broader issue of interest rates in the second half of my speech. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley asked how much of the commitments of the Public Works Loan Board had been cancelled in the past year, that is, commitments entered into by by the Board but which the local authorities, for some reason or another, had not taken up. The figures up to 31st March, 1954, are given in the Board's latest Annual Report. Since that date, I understand that about£170 million of commitments have been cancelled on evidence that local authorities had no desire to take them up.
  I should like to ask the right hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Jay) to bear that figure in mind, because it will help me to answer his question about whether it will be sufficient if we fix the limit of actual advances plus commit-
  1796
  ments at£1,000 million in future instead of at£1,200 million. I think that it will be, because we have not only had this amount of£170 million of commitments cancelled, but also, under the new procedure which I explained to the House, local authorities are not likely, in future, to approach the Board to ask for loans unless it is considerably more certain than it has been in the past that they will actually have to take them up. Therefore, on that ground, too, the amount of outstanding commitments is likely to shrink.
  The right hon. Member for Colne Valley also asked about the fee charged by the Board and whether it remained at 4s. percent. It does. The right hon. Gentleman intimated that the fee seemed to him out of proportion to the costs incurred. I should like the House to know that this question of the size of the fee was fully discussed with the Standing Committee of the local authority associations in May last year.
  The best thing that I can do is to quote one sentence from the Report which the Standing Committee gave to the constituent associations after the discussion. The Report said:
  "We think that the present charge of 4s. per cent. should be accepted as reasonable."
  That is the view expressed by that Standing Committee. I think that it means that the Treasury was able to convince that committee that nobody was profiteering by charging that fee and that it was reasonable in relation to the costs involved.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Surely the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Although it sounds reasonable, and we must obviously accept what the hon. Gentleman says, in fact the Board has made a profit of nearly£700,000 a year for some years. On that figure, the charge would not appear to be reasonable.
  Mr. Brooke: I think that the right hon. Gentleman is considering only the expenditure that may fall upon the Board in examining applications for loans and so forth, and is omitting the cost of debt management in respect of money provided for the Local Loans Fund. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the foot of page 10 of the last Annual Report, and will accept my assurance that full information has been given to the Standing

  1797
  Committee of the local authority associations and that that committee is satisfied, I sincerely trust that, on consideration, he also will be satisfied.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked about the present size of the Board's staff. It numbers 78, and is slightly smaller than it has been in the past. I am sure that all concerned will be grateful for the tribute which was paid by the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) to the excellence of that staff.
  The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) asked whether there could not be an opportunity for local authorities which have paid high rates to pay off the loan and borrow back on cheaper terms. I understood the hon. Member to say that they could do this if they borrowed on the open market. But that is not so if they have raised a long-term loan on the open market. They certainly cannot claim to pay it off before the earliest date of permitted redemption.
  The position in relation to the Board is that premature repayment of loans is permitted. If the current rate of interest chargeable by the Board is lower than that charged on the loan to be repaid, the borrower must pay a premium on repayment to cover any loss which the Local Loans Fund would otherwise incur. In exceptional circumstances, premature repayment is accepted with partial or complete waiver of premium.
  The right hon. Gentleman also inquired why there was no provision in this Bill, as there had been in some earlier Acts, for the writing off of bad debts, and he wanted to know if this indicated any change in Government policy. I can assure him there has been no change in policy. The Government are advised by the Public Works Loan Board that there is no need at present to write off any commitments as bad debts.
  The Board's continuing policy is not to write off anything as a bad debt unless the borrower, if an individual, is dead, or, if a corporation of some kind, is in liquidation. The Board's attitude towards these longstanding debts is that while there is life there is hope, which is the fundamental reason why there is no provision in certain Measures for the writing off of bad debts.
  1798
  I listened with great interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling). He feared that the behaviour of the Board was encouraging to profligate local authorities. My own view is that local authorities generally are not profligate. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] I am sorry to disagree with my hon. Friend. I am not going to take any part in the enlivening quarrel between the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South, and my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). But I think I may say that the hon. Member for Stechford was stating the Government's attitude on some of these matters very well indeed.
  Mr. Jay: Will the Financial Secretary say whether he agrees with the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South that the London County Council is a profligate authority.
  Mr. Brooke: I was intending to make some comment on that remark and, being invited, I gladly do so. I am a member of the opposition on the London County Council, and when I am speaking from this Box on a Bill of this kind it would be quite improper for me to make comments for or against any local authority.
  Sir W. Darling: This self-denying ordinance on the part of my hon. Friend does not, of course, proscribe me from making them.
  Mr. Brooke: I doubt whether my hon. Friend knows what a self-denying ordinance is.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster asked me two questions. One concerned the rate of interest, which I will deal with in the latter part of my speech, and the other asked how much local authorities have borrowed each year in the open market since they had the right to do so. The position is that in each of the last two years, 1953 and 1954, since they obtained this power, the local authorities have borrowed about£20 million on the open market.
  In addition local authority borrowing from trustee savings banks has been running at the rate of about£40 million a year. I cannot give any precise figure on the amount that local authorities raised by private mortgage. I should say it was

  1799
  probably about£200 million a year and, as the House knows, local authorities are raising sums of about£300 million a year from the Public Works Loan Board.
  The hon. Member for Clapham, I think, misunderstood something which I said about the amount that was likely to shrink. I did not suggest that the amount of loans made by the Board to local authorities was likely to shrink. I said that the amount of commitments not taken up by local authorities was likely to shrink for the reason which I explained earlier in my speech. I agree withhim—I do not always agree with him—that the Public Works Loan Board does meet a public need.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) referred me to two previous speeches that he had delivered, indicating that the Board might very well go out of existence. I do not take that view, and I must leave this matter to the two hon. Members who represent neighbouring constituencies to fight it out between themselves, though I am with the Clapham side this time.
  I suggest that one good reason for continuing our present practice is that it affords a periodical opportunity for a debate like this on local authority borrowing; because if there were no Public Works Loan Board there would be no need for a Bill of this kind. I can assure the House that there would be no perceptible economy by abolishing the Board, as all the members are unpaid and the staff would have to do that work inside the Treasury if they were not doing it for the Board.
  The hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East(Mr. Blenkinsop) complained that there were not more Ministers present on the Treasury Bench. I think the Government must be left to conduct their own business in that respect. I do not know whether the hon. Member looked round when he was speaking, but at the moment when he was pleading for greater representation of Ministers I noted there were only eight of his hon. Friends present, so that I think we were not acting unreasonably in relation to the strength of the demand that was coming from the other side of the House.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: I was merely referring to what had been the practice in some
  1800
  previous debates, in which references were made by other Ministers to the way in which this particular Bill affected their Departments. It was not a question of how many Members of this side of the House were present.
  Mr. Brooke: I do not know what the practice was under previous Governments, and it is not for me to say that my right hon. Friends trust me to look after the interests of the Government while that may not have been the case under earlier Administrations when the position of parties in this House was reversed.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Brixton, who sent me an apology because he could not remain until the end of this debate, asked a number of technical questions which he read from a document. I hope that I shall be forgiven if I do not reply to them at length. I am prepared to do so if the House desires, but perhaps it will suffice for me to assure the House that since I had the pleasure of meeting local authority representatives in November on the matters to which the hon. and gallant Member drew attention, I have written a letter in reply to those local authorities, and, as the questions are somewhat technical, perhaps it would be best for them to be considered further at that level.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson) pressed me to see whether I could give any further indication as to how long this Measure would last. It is impossible for me to do so. In my opening speech I said it would depend entirely on how rapidly and how heavily local authorities wished to borrow. I did not say how slowly or how lightly. I have conveyed no suggestion, nor have I any desire to convey the suggestion, that this Bill is a warning to local authorities not to pursue a borrowing policy.
  It is impossible to foresee with certainty how long this Measure will last. All I can inform the House is that the 1953 Act sufficed for 16 months. Local authorities have very big projects on hand, and it might be that this£500 million will last for another 16 months, but it depends on events in the future which none of us can forecast.
  Now I will come to what have been the prevailing subjects in almost every speech—the interest rates and the policy

  1801
  underlying them. Suggestions were made by various hon. Gentlemen opposite that it was right to have no changes of rates, or hardly any changes of rates. I think there were two changes of rates during the period of the Labour Government. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley urged that higher interest rates should not be imposed on local authorities for longer than absolutely necessary. I agree.
  There is no thought in my mind, or in the minds of the Government, that local authorities should be punished by having to pay a markedly higher rate of interest if they borrow through the Public Works Loan Board than if they borrow elsewhere. These new rates which come into force tomorrow are not fixed for all time. They can be altered in their turn if conditions indicate that that will be wise.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East, said that interest rates are higher than they have been for years. I must correct him. The top rate which I announced today was 4 per cent., whereas 18 months ago the rate at which local authorities could borrow on long-term from the Public Works Loan Board was 4¼ per cent. The hon. Member for Kidderminster spoke of jerking or hiccoughing the rate about.
  Mr. Nabarro: What I said was "hiccups and gyrations."
  Mr. Brooke: I am not quite sure how the rate can gyrate but I see how it can be jerked about.
  Mr. M. Follick: The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) had better keep to smog as a topic.
  Mr. Brooke: I am not an authority on hiccups.
  The Government view on this matter remains as it was previously expressed by no less an authority than the late Sir Stafford Cripps, that the rates of interest charged to local authorities are fixed from time to time to correspond broadly with the Government's borrowing rates for comparable periods. That is what Sir Stafford Cripps said in the House on 20th January, 1948, and there has been no marked departure from that general policy since.
  It would be right for me to give a short explanation of the reason why a sharp change in Bank Rate may lead to only a
  1802
  small change, or even no change at all, in the rate charged for loans from the Public Works Loan Board. The House will be aware that all kinds of short-term rates are closely linked to the Bank Rate, but in the case of long-term rates the link is far less direct, and many other factors come into play. For one thing, the money for long-term investment comes from quite different sources. In fixing the rate of interest to be charged on loans from the Board, the policy of the Government has been, and still is, to give local authorities the benefit of Government credit for loans of comparable period. The majority of local loans are made for periods of more than15 years, most of them for very much longer. For instance, housing loans are generally for 60 years.
  What, therefore, is relevant in determining the rate of interest for such loans is the general level of gilt-edged rates for long-term loans. The Bank Rate is only one of the factors affecting that. The rates for the Public Works Loan Board loans for shorter periods are determined on similar principles. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will examine the course of markets since the change in Bank Rate, they will find that there has been nothing like a change of 1 per cent. in the yield on long-term Government securities. The yield on those at this moment is pretty close to 4 per cent. and that is how it comes about that the Chancellor has selected 4 per cent. as the rate for longer-term loans from the Board.
  Similarly, the rates which have been selected for the short and medium-term loans are arrived at by consideration of the level at which the yield on Government stocks of those lengths seem likely to be settling down. However, nobody can say whether these new rates of interest will remain permanently. The general principle is that the rates at which the Board will lend should be related to the market yields on Government securities of similar length.
  The suggestion has been made in this debate, not explicitly, but it has been implicit in a number of the speeches, that local authorities should be insulated from the market, that Parliament should fix a ceiling above which the rates of interest charged to local authorities should never go.
  Mr. Pannell: I think that the hon. Gentleman is overstating the case. We do

  1803
  not say there is a point beyond which interest rates shall not go, but that for a given time ahead interest rates to local authorities should be predictable.
  Mr. Brooke: There have been suggestions that the Public Works Loan Board rates should be, to some extent, insulated from the market.
  I understand what the hon. Gentleman has said about their being predictable, but clearly it is impossible to make predictions far ahead if the principle is to be adopted which I have described, that the rates should be kept in line with market yields. I can give immediate proof that changes do not follow instantly on Bank Rate changes, because it is some weeks now since Bank Rate was put up from 3 to 3½per cent., and not until today has there been any change in the Public Works Loan Board rates. If Parliament were to fix any kind of ceiling it would tilt the balance in favour of local authorities borrowing from the Board and not borrowing in the market, because they could get more attractive terms from the Board.
  The policy of this Government is to encourage the authorities to use their freedom to borrow in the market on their own credit, and it would be interposing an artificial restriction if the rate at which they could borrow from the Board were to stay firm when the rates charged in the open market were considerably higher. My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster perhaps did not allow sufficiently for that possibility in his plea for uniformity of rate. He took the example of what might happen when the market rate went down, but he did not follow that up, as I hoped he would, by analysing the situation if the market rate went up.
  Mr. Nabarro: The analogy that I drew was a very simple one. An announcement was made last Friday by the chairman of one of the largest building societies to the effect that it would not alter its mortgage interest rates as a result of the change in the Bank Rate. If that applies to a building society, which rests its terms on general market conditions, why should it not equally apply in broad principle to the operations of the Board?
  Mr. Brooke: The answer is that running a building society and lending money to local authorities are not precisely similar operations.
  1804
  It really would be unsound public finance in my opinion, and, I should have thought, in my hon. Friend's opinion, to lend to local authorities below the market rate and thus give them a concealed subsidy. It strikes me that the right basis for the financial relationship between central and local government is that the system of Exchequer grants and subsidies should be clearly laid down by Parliament, and that it should not get warped this way or that by concealed subsidies to local authorities through the rate of interest.
  A fluctuating Bank Rate does not imply constant changes in the rate of interest for Public Works Loan Board loans. That is by no means a necessity. I have explained that there is no direct connection between the Bank Rate and gilt-edged rates, and that has been seen very clearly in the last six weeks. The rate for Public Works Loan Board loans must now move to 4 per cent. or it will clearly be out of line with the market, but we are proceeding on the following principles.
  We have a flexible monetary policy, and that means a flexible money market. We do not intend to give financial favour to the local authorities at the Exchequer's expense by insulating them from the movement of the market. If the cost of long-term borrowing goes up, they must expect to pay more. If it goes down, they can expect to pay less, whatever source of capital they use.
  On the other hand, the Government are fully seized of the point that rapid fluctuations in the Public Works Loan Board rates would be unsettling to everybody; it would introduce inconvenience and uncertainty. No undertakings can be given to limit the freedom of the Treasury in the future to change the rate either way whenever a change is necessary to keep the rate in line with the general level of the gilt-edged market, but it is not the intention of the Government to make frequent and detailed adjustments in the rate as if it were directly linked with any specific rate in the gilt-edged market.
  The hon. Member for Stechford asked whether the new rates which I announced today marked a deliberate policy of influencing local government borrowing. No, that is not the case. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he reached his decision about the Bank Rate last week, was not saying to himself "This is the

  1805
  instrument that comes to my hand for restricting local government borrowing." What has happened today is, in a sense, consequential upon what he felt it was necessary to do in the national interest about the Bank Rate, but it was not in itself a leading consideration in his mind.
  I have been asked what will be the effect on railway, road, and housing policy and, indeed, on all kinds of local authority borrowing, or on the financial relationship between local and central Government. I am not in a position to say precisely what effect these new rates will have on the minds of local authorities. It will be for my colleagues in the Government to consider the matter and inform the House in due course whether or not they think that any changes in existing arrangements are necessary.
  I must remind the House, and especially hon. Members opposite, that the enormous rise in the costs of house building between 1945 and 1951 did not induce the Labour Government to increase the housing subsidies at all. The rents of council houses do not depend only on the rate at which the local authority can borrow; they depend even more on the cost of building houses. Certainly, local authorities were entitled to have a much greater grievance before the Labour Government fell in that the Labour Government did not increase the rate of housing subsidy than any local authority can have at the present moment in that the rate of interest is going up by ¼ per cent.
  Mr. Jay: Is the hon. Gentleman not going to make any statement at all about the housing subsidy? Will it cover the increase in the rate of interest?
  Mr. Brooke: No, I am not going to make any statement today.
  The rates that I have announced today are not laid down for any definite term. Indeed, the Chancellor's remarks last Thursday indicated that he would be continuing to watch the position, and we must do that, and we must see whether it remains necessary to keep the rates where they are or whether it is necessary to change them, either up or down. It would be quite unsuitable for an announcement of a permanent nature to be made at the very moment when a new and relatively small change has been made in the rate of borrowing which mostly affects local authority loans.
  Mr. Jay: The Financial Secretary told us earlier that some other Minister would be answering a Question tomorrow or later this week. Does he know what the answer will be? If so, why should he not tell us now?
  Mr. Brooke: It really is not for the right hon. Gentleman to tell this Government how to manage their business. I am certain that in his time as a Minister he did not anticipate answers to Questions which were to be put to his senior colleagues later in the week.
  Mr. Gibson: The hon. Gentleman spoke about the cost of building being an important influence upon the rate of rent. That is true, but surely he will agree that by far the greatest proportion of the rent paid each week is the result of debt charges and interest payments, which amount to about 15s. in the pound?
  Mr. Brooke: The amount of the debt charge depends not only on the rate of interest but also on the amount of the loan that has to be raised.
  As to the announcement of the new rates of interest, it was in the Chancellor's mind that this debate would be taking place today. He thought that it was right that the new rates should be announced at the beginning of the debate and that I should be empowered to announce them, because that seemed to be the fairer way of treating the House. It would have been possible to hold them over for a bit. His statement last Thursday did not tie him to any date, but I hope that the House will feel that it has been fairly and reasonably treated by the announcement's having been made at the earliest possible moment so that there could be no suggestion of a Second Reading being given to the Bill while something of an essential nature was being kept back.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: We heartily agree that it has been courteous of the hon. Gentleman to tell us just what change was about to be made in the rate. But would it not be equally courteous, as the two hang together, to let us know what change, if any, is to be made in the subsidy? We should then have the whole picture and we should know whether we ought to worry or not.
  Mr. Brooke: Those are very much wider issues. This debate is not concerned with the whole field of local

  1807
  authority finance. We are not debating Exchequer grants, but the rates at which local authorities can raise money.
  The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) suggested that these new rates would deter local authorities. Looking backwards it is quite impossible to see any close connection between changes in the rate of interest and amounts which local authorities have borrowed. Certainly they have not been deterred in the past, and there is no reason to think that this Bill will have some sudden and devastating effect which past changes in the rate have not had.
  On the contrary, I should say that local authorities have greatly appreciated the greater smoothness of treatment which they have very widely enjoyed during the lifetime of this Government. They have been saved from the sudden starts and stops which were so familiar and characteristic of the attitude of the Labour Government towards local authorities. In fact, local authorities have been left with great freedom to get on with their job.
  I was asked whether the concession to local authorities to borrow for less than the full period of the loan sanction was not being offset by the rise in the short-term rates of interest. Let me explain that the rise in short-term interest rates is not necessarily permanent, whereas the concession is permanent. There is no question of making it today and withdrawing it tomorrow should the rate of interest change. Perhaps I should more fully explain the nature of the concession.
  Local authorities for some time back have jibbed against the rule that the Board would approve loans covering only the full period for which the authority had been granted loan sanction by the responsible Government Department. As a result of discussion, it emerged that there were two types of situation that might arise. One was where a shortening of the period of the loan by imposing a larger charge, though for a shorter period, might affect the rate of grant receivable
  1808
  by the local authority from the Government Department. That was the difficult case.
  The Treasury had already accepted that where that did not arise, and the amount of the Exchequer grant was not involved, the freedom which the local authorities desired could be conceded. What I am announcing today is that the Treasury has now gone the whole hog, and even where a case of borrowing for a shorter period might affect the amount of Exchequer grant that would be earned by the local authority, nevertheless, the local authority will not be debarred from borrowing for less than the full period of the loan.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries asked me to explain why the changes in short-term rates were not precisely the same as those in the long-term rates. I hope that I have made that clear, and set out the reasons why these three rates may change by different amounts, according to the market rates for Government securities of different dates.
  I have endeavoured to cover most of the points that have been raised, I should like, in conclusion, to say that the Public Works Loan Board is even more ancient than was suggested. It was indicated that we might be wishing it "Many happy returns" on its 80th birthday. It is true that, in the main, the Commissioners operate under the Act of 1875, but Commissioners were first appointed under the Public Works Loans Act, 1817, and were then established to lend money to public and private borrowers for public works so as to relieve distress caused during the Napoleonic Wars. We have travelled a long way since then, and I hope that we are still carrying on properly and appropriately the machinery through which local authorities can borrow money from official sources.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]Committee Tomorrow.

NORTHERN IRELAND [MONEY]
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision as to the salary and expenses of the Governor of Northern Ireland, it is expedient to authorise the payment to the said Governor out of the Consolidated Fund of—

(a) a salary at the rate of four thousand pounds per annum; and

(b) an allowance in respect of expenses of an amount not exceeding ten thousand pounds per annum.

Resolution agreed to.

NORTHERN IRELAND BILL
Considered in Committee.
[Sir RHYS HOPKIN MORRIS in the Chair]

Clause 1.—(SALARY AND EXPENSES OF GOVERNOR.)
8.8 p.m.
Mr. Cahir Healy: I beg to move, in page 2, line 1, to leave out "ten" and insert "four."
This Amendment would limit the amount of the expenses to be allowed to the Governor from£10,000 to£4,000. My colleagues and I think that that is ample for his needs. There are now many suitable applicants in Northern Ireland and outside who would like to discharge these duties at the salary and expenses at present allowed. The duties are merely of a nominal character, and we know many public people and people in the professions who would discharge the duties pertaining to this office with credit, if not with distinction.
If£1,000 had been asked, in view of the circumstances of the time, I might have seen a good deal more reason, but that there should be a jump from£8,000 to£14,000 evidently shows that the Northern Ireland Government have reserved this vote for some favourite of theirs. The Northern Ireland Government call the tune, but the Treasury here pays the piper. It is said by some of our friends that we ought not to oppose this increase for the reason that, since the Exchequer here pays, it is only logical and reasonable that the Government here ought to be made to pay a penalty for imposing partition on Ireland, and therefore we should not oppose it.
1810
That argument would appeal to me if we were not part of the general taxpayers of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It strikes me as being unfair that we who were opposed to partition should now be taxed to pay for it. That is the position. There is no reason why somebody who protested against partition should be made to pay for partition. That is why my colleague and I oppose the increase.
Already the Northern Ireland Government have succeeded in reducing their liability for the salary from£5,000, arranged under the 1920 Act, to the£2,000 which they pay now. Now they want to get rid of it altogether and place the burden on somebody else's shoulders. It is remarkable that we have not had any demand for an increase until a gentleman from this country filled the position. For a quarter of a century the Duke of Abercorn occupied the post as Governor of Northern Ireland, and he lived all that time in the Six Counties.
I saw it reported the other day that Lord Wakehurst attended a function in Strabane. An address was presented to him. It was mainly concerned with protests against the high rate of unemployment. He confided to the deputation——
The Deputy-Chairman: I do not think that it is in order on this Amendment to discuss petitions and unemployment. The Amendment is merely to reduce the expenses.
Mr. Healy: I am coming to that. The petition was presented to him and he confided that he had been in Strabane incognito a little while ago; and the problem now arises, in what form did he appear in Strabane.
The Deputy-Chairman: It is not in order to discuss that, in whatever form he appeared in Strabane.
Dr. H. Morgan: Strabane is banned.
Mr. Healy: I want to show that the previous holder of the office, at a salary of£8,000 a year, discharged his duties with efficiency and to the satisfaction of everybody concerned. I hope that that will be considered relevant. He went about, as I suppose a Governor should, opening parish bazaars and Orange halls. In Northern Ireland it is part of the duties

1811
of the Governor to open Orange halls. He would not be kept long in the post if he did not.
Lieut.-Colonel H. M. Hyde: I think that it is true to say that none of the three Governors of Northern Ireland has ever opened an Orange hall.
The Deputy-Chairman: I hope that no one on either side of the Committee will attempt to get out of order.
Mr. Healy: I am certain that the Duke of Abercorn, who was the leader of the Tories in Northern Ireland, opened many Orange halls.
Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: Not when he was Governor.
The Deputy-Chairman: I hope that hon. Members will direct their minds to the Amendment, which is to reduce the amount allowed for expenses and has nothing to do with whether halls are opened for one colour or another.
Mr. Hugh Delargy: Surely, if in the course of his duties the Governor has to open Orange halls and the expenses are met by this country, it is in order to discuss how he spends those expenses?
8.15 p.m.
The Deputy-Chairman: It cannot be in order to discuss that on this Amendment, which is concerned only with the amount the Governor should be allowed.
Mr. Delargy: If he opens fewer Orange halls, he will spend less money.
The Deputy-Chairman: Discussion about the nature of any halls opened cannot be in order on this Amendment.
Mr. Healy: The salary the Governor had for that quarter of a century was£8,000. I am certain that on that salary he was able to go around doing all the ordinary duties, as well as opening Orange halls. He was the leader of the Tories for all that time. He also got the credit for bringing a number of industries to Northern Ireland. I am sure that he did his best. The name of the Duke of Abercorn was such that it might appeal to many industrialists across here. There was nothing Socialist or Nationalist about him. He was able to assure the people here that the workers of Northern Ireland would not make any trouble over wages or hours.
1812
He never asked for an increase in the 25 years during which he filled the post. He entertained, he dined, he wined, he did everything pertaining to his office, and I never heard anything but praise of his social qualities. He was paid for the whole period, and when he died I never heard that he was in debt through serving in that post.
He was followed by Earl Granville. He made no complaint about the salary or expenses. He did not over-stay his welcome, and he cleared out of Northern Ireland when his period of office expired. The present holder, Lord Wakehurst, has come on the scene, and he makes a demand, not for an additional£1,000, but for an increase of 80 per cent. He knew what the salary and emoluments were when he was offered the position. Why should he have accepted if they were not sufficient.
The size of the territory has not increased, and I am sure that his duties have not been added to. Lord Craigavon coined a phrase, "Not an inch" in relation to the Boundary Commission. Bearing in mind his old friend the Duke of Abercorn who was paid£8,000 for 25 years, he would have said to Lord Wakehurst, "Not a penny." In my opinion, and in that of the people of Northern Ireland, he is not worth an increase of£6,000.
In addition, we are saving him probably another£1,000 in Income Tax, because the£8,000 hitherto received was by way of salary and allowances. The salary is to be reduced to£4,000, obviously to reduce the Income Tax, but the allowances, on which no tax will be paid, are to be increased to£10,000.
Is Northern Ireland more important to the British Empire than Canada, New Zealand or Australia? Northern Ireland has a population only equal to that of Glasgow or Birmingham, and I believe that the Lord Mayor of Glasgow receives no salary. The Viceregal Lodge is situated in the wilds, miles from anywhere, and nobody ever goes there except Parliamentary Secretaries and gentlemen seeking jobs.
This is a most inopportune time at which to increase the salary of anybody in Northern Ireland, especially of one at the head of the administration. About a thousand people have been put off from work in the shipyards of Belfast. We are reducing the subsidy on housing and the

1813
amount allocated for hospitals. Our National Assistance is being reduced in some cases to 15s. for an individual. When in so many matters we are being so stringent, is this the time to increase the salary of the head of affairs by£6,000, or 80 per cent.?
The dwelling of the Governor is costing the taxpayers of Northern Ireland£23,000. That is for one household and one man. Of that sum,£9,000 goes to the Board of Trade for various duties, such as heating, lighting and cleaning the building. The rest goes by way of expenses and salaries. It is one of the most expensive luxuries in Northern Ireland, next in fact to the gentlemen who look after the Prime Minister. His chauffeur receives£1,000 a year.
I see some hon. Members opposite who represent constituencies in Northern Ireland, and I have no doubt that we shall be hearing from them. I should like therefore to ask this question of them. There are 2,000 branches of the Ulster Farmers' Union and hundreds of branches of the Unionist Party in Northern Ireland. Have they received one resolution from all these bodies asking that the salary of the Governor be increased? It is no use talking round the subject. I want them to put their finger on that, because it seems to me to be the vital point. There are 70 public bodies in Northern Ireland, including corporations, urban councils, borough councils and rural councils. Has a single resolution been received from one of those bodies asking hon. Members opposite to support an increase in the Governor's salary?
On the contrary, many of these public bodies believe that in a small community like Northern Ireland, with a population equal to that of Glasgow, the Governor is already too highly paid—and so is the Prime Minister and the whole set-up. In fact, they are of opinion that this country's Exchequer must have money to burn when the suggestion is made here that the salary should be increased to this extent. If we have money to burn, there are a lot of people in Northern Ireland who would like to sit by the fire and warm their hands at the flames—particularly in this cold weather. I believe this to be in the nature of a bribe to make partition and the positions connected with it more attractive than they are at the moment. But notwithstanding this proposed increase and this subtle bribe, I believe that
1814
there is no Irishman in Northern Ireland worthy of his name who would accept the offer.
The Government of Ireland Act presupposes that Northern Ireland pays an Imperial contribution of£8 million. On balance, Northern Ireland pays nothing whatever. If we take into account the various Departmental and other grants for the social services, and for agriculture and other things, I believe that we are driving a coach and four through the 1920 Act by all these subventions and grants, and not the least by this one. In those circumstances, my colleagues and I hope that the grant will not become operative.
Professor Sir Douglas Savory: We discussed this question almost ad nauseam on Second Reading, when all the arguments we have heard tonight were fully answered.
What the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Healy) has said about the Duke of Abercorn was answered during the Second Reading debate, when I pointed out that, especially during the latter part of his governorship, the Duke of Abercorn was out of pocket by thousands of pounds. His successor, Earl Granville, made a formal complaint to the Government that it was impossible for him to carry on because he was being absolutely ruined by the immense charges he had to undergo. Is it not therefore natural that the present Governor, in presenting his accounts, should have appealed to the Government that it was impossible for him to make ends meet?
What the hon. Member has said is entirely contrary to the facts, all of which were set out very fully and in detail during the Second Reading debate. The hon. Member brought up the point, to which I replied on that occasion, regarding the contribution formerly made by the Government of Northern Ireland and which amounted to£2,000. I explained, and the Minister fully agreed with me, that as the Government of Northern Ireland were taking over the secretarial and office expenses, that would be roughly equivalent to the£2,000 which they had already been paying.
On Second Reading, I gave the various comparable salaries earned by the Governors of New South Wales, New Zealand, the Isle of Man and so on, showing that this increase was altogether

1815
reasonable. As the Governor of Northern Ireland represents Her Majesty, I think that we are entitled to compare what it is proposed to grant to him for expenses with the expenses given to our ambassadors abroad. I should like the Committee to consider some relevant figures. The Ambassador to Sweden receives£8,000 for his expenses; the Ambassador to Poland gets£14,450; the Ambassador to Austria receives an allowance of£11,460; the Ambassador to Belgium receives£11,200; the Ambassador to France receives£22,390—not subject to Income Tax—and the Ambassador to Italy receives£10,370. In view of those figures and the fact that they have not to be accounted for, whereas the Governor of Northern Ireland has to prove that his expenses amount to a certain sum, up to a maximum of£10,000—and this amount is doubly checked——
Dr. H. Morgan: Is this in order, Sir Rhys? I do not think that it has any relevance to the discussion.
The Deputy-Chairman: It is quite in order. The hon. Member is arguing that the sum is justified.
8.30 p.m.
Sir D. Savory: I was arguing that there is a difference between the money paid to our Ambassadors for their expenses and the money paid to the Governor of Northern Ireland. The Ambassadors do not have to account for their expenses, but those of the Governor of Northern Ireland are checked twice—once by the Home Secretary and again by the Treasury. If his expenses do not amount to£10,000 he does not receive the excess. These expenses are public expenses. All private expenses have to be paid for by the Governor himself.
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone challenged other Ulster Members as well as myself to cite any local body or authority which had demanded an increase in the Governor's salary. The answer is obvious; it is not their business. Why should a county council put forward such a resolution? It would be entirely out of order for it to do so. The proper people to put forward this demand are the Government of Northern Ireland, because they know the extent of the Governor's expenses. I am sure, however, that the overwhelming
1816
majority of county councils and other authorities in Northern Ireland will approve of this expenditure, because the present Governor has shown himself worthy of his office.
He has undertaken every possible kind of public function. He has presided at prize-givings and has visited the towns of Northern Ireland. The hon. Member mentioned his visit to Strabane. The Governor has also made a tour of important towns like Carrickfergus. I feel sure that the Committee would think it dishonourable to ask that the Governor should continue to go on losing thousands of pounds a year simply because he is honestly trying to discharge the duties of Her Majesty's Goverment's representative.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: We have heard two speeches by Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies, but I think that we are all interested in this matter. We are here concerned with part of the expenditure of the United Kingdom. I represent a Scottish constituency, and I sometimes have the pleasure of looking over Northern Ireland. We do not begrudge them their internal controversies, but when they ask for money from us we are entitled to be told exactly what the money is for, and the justification for any increase in expenditure.
I am sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be shocked when he reads the speech which has just been made by the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Sir D.Savory). Last Thursday the Chancellor told us about our serious economic condition, and mentioned the need for restraint and for considering our expenditure. Our situation is so bad that we even have to restrict the hire purchase of perambulators. Is this the time to set an example of reckless expenditure upon what seems to me to be an unnecessary luxury?
The hon. Member for Antrim, South (Sir D. Savory) has compared the position of the Governor with that of the ambassadors to France, Poland, and other European countries, but I regard the Governorship of Northern Ireland as a tinpot, ridiculous job, which could easily be done for a much lower salary. The Prime Minister has repeatedly been asked when he is going to increase the salaries of junior Ministers. His reply always has been, "Well, this is not an urgent matter."

1817
I am quite sure that the junior Minister representing the Home Office, who is sitting on the Government Front Bench this evening, does far more work than the Governor of Northern Ireland.
I have listened carefully to the debate to try to find out what the Governor does. I have been able to find out what the Governor does not do—that he does not open the Orange lodges. If he does not open the Orange lodges in Northern Ireland, what on earth does he do? If the financial situation in this country is really as bad as the Chancellor has made out, this is the time for restraint. This is the time to stop expenditure on unnecessary administrative luxuries.
I do not see why the Governor of Northern Ireland should receive anything at all. I think that any one of the hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies could do all that is necessary in that particular job, and could do it in a very short time. I think that it is entirely off the mark to compare the Governorship of Northern Ireland with that of New Zealand or of New South Wales. After all, one can get to Northern Ireland in a couple of hours by train from London to Belfast, and all the really essential duties necessary in Northern Ireland can be done in a couple of days.
I was quite unaware, until I heard so this afternoon, that the sum of£8,000 is allotted by the Treasury to the Governor of Northern Ireland. I suggest that those hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies do far more work than the Governor of Northern Ireland. It is ridiculous to ask for a functionary of this kind this extravagant sum. I suggest that this is a job that should have been undertaken in connection with the Civil List. I think that one of our Royal Family could very well go to Belfast, in a couple of hours, for two or three days a year, and do the job without any increase in expenditure at all. I am sure that the Duke of Gloucester or the Duke of Windsor would be quite pleased to do that out of affection for and loyalty to Northern Ireland.
This is a time when the Government should set an example in economy. I appeal to the Minister to withdraw the Bill. There is no demand for it. There have been public meetings recently in Northern Ireland, but not to demand an increase of salary for the Governor. They
1818
have been organised for the purpose of calling attention to unemployment. I shall not go into that matter, but I suggest that if the Government are serious in facing the economic position of the country at the present time they should set an example of austerity to the nation and withdraw the Bill.
Lieut.-Colonel H. M. Hyde: The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) has told us that he does not know what the Governor of Northern Ireland does, and he also told us that he thought that some of my hon. Friends who represent Northern Ireland constituencies could do the job equally well. He pointed out that it was not necessary to have a Governor, and he proposed that the Duke of Gloucester should visit Northern Ireland from time to time to do what he could. May I say that we are very devoted to the Duke of Gloucester, one of whose titles is that of Earl of Ulster, and we are always extremely pleased to see His Royal Highness.
I think, however, that the hon. Member has missed the point, because under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, the province of Ulster was given a local Parliament for local affairs and a Governor.
It is only fair to say—or to repeat, because this point was made during the Second Reading debate—that the Unionist Members who represented Irish constituencies in this House did not oppose the Government of Ireland Act, but they did not vote for it. The Unionist Members wished to remain under the jurisdiction of this honourable House and of Westminster. We did not want a Governor-General at all, or a local Parliament. As part of the compromise to settle the age-old Irish question, we accepted that arrangement, which was embodied in the Government of Ireland Act. We undertook, as Lord Carson, our leader at that time indicated, to work that Act loyally.
After 32 years, I think we can say that we have worked the Act loyally. This House, having decided that we should have a local Parliament for local affairs and a Governor-General and having voted money for that purpose, should maintain the Governor-General as the representative of Her Majesty in such a condition that he can discharge the functions which fall to him as Her Majesty's representative.

1819
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Healy) doubted whether the Governor had been out of pocket as had been represented because he knew nothing about it. I certainly knew of my own personal knowledge, because I had the friendship of the late Duke of Abercorn, that he was substantially out of pocket. He put his hand into his own pocket to pay the expenses, and he was too decent a man to make a protest at that time. He carried on for the best part of 15 years.
It is only by hearsay that I know that subsequent Governors-General have been out of pocket. Certainly the first Governor-General was considerably out of pocket. The only point I am making is the very simple one that this House, having given us a Governor-General, should maintain him in such a way that he can discharge his duties as the Queen's representative adequately and efficiently.
Mr. Michael O'Neill: The argument in favour of this increase of£10,000 is that previous Governors indicated that they had been extensively out of pocket. In listening to the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Sir D. Savory) I gathered that that was the only real point which he made in support of the increase.
He mentioned that Lord Granville, who was the present Governor's predecessor, made no secret of the fact that he had informed the Government that he was extensively out of pocket. We may presume from that, that the Government were well aware, previous to appointing the present Governor, that he could accept this office only at a sacrifice. I wonder what he was told. Was he told when this appointment was made that he was going to be extensively out of pocket? If he was, did he accept it on those terms, or did he accept it with the suggestion that if he had it for a year or two—he has had it now for two years—his expenses would be increased?
If one of the professed political aims of the Tory Party is economy in every branch of administration, why do not they say to the Governor, "You are taking on this job, you will be out of pocket, and our suggestion to you is that you should economise and bring your expenses down to the limit of the present expenditure?" That would seem to me
1820
to be more in keeping with the professed policy of the Tory Party than the proposal outlined in this Bill. Apparently, however, the Tory Party does not seem to practice what it preaches, at least as far as Northern Ireland is concerned.
8.45 p.m.
There is another point of some significance. This£10,000 is to be devoted to expenses, and I understand that it will be absolutely free of Income Tax. That is a substantial relief to anybody in these days of very high rates of Income Tax.
Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: It is not true to say that the£10,000 is free of Income Tax. The claim for expenses has to be submitted to the Treasury in accordance with the usual procedure.
Mr. O'Neill: No; I think my interpretation of the reply which the Minister gave on Second Reading was that this£10,000 would not be subject to Income Tax, and that only the£4,000 salary would be subject to Income Tax in the ordinary way. I understand that this£10,000 is to be solely for expenses, and that it will not in any manner be subject to Income Tax.
Here again, the Government have set a very unfair precedent, because I know for a fact that certain professional bodies, such as schoolteachers and doctors, have made representations to the Treasury to the effect that certain expenses in connection with their duties should be taken into consideration for the purpose of Income Tax allowances. The Treasury has refused point blank to accept those representations on the grounds of principle. Apparently, a question of principle is involved here—the principle that a salaried official cannot claim for expenses incurred in connection with his job—but here we have the Governor being allocated the vast sum of£10,000, which is to be free of Income Tax, and that, I think, is totally unfair.
Another difficulty which I can foresee is the way in which these expenses are to be determined. What part of the functions of the Governor will rank as expenses? It has been mentioned here that he may open an Orange hall. Well, if the Governor opens an Orange hall, will that be included in his expenses?
Sir D. Savory: He never has done, and never will open an Orange hall.
Mr. O'Neill: We are assuming that he will open Orange lodges.
Sir D. Savory: No, never.
Mr. O'Neill: The Governor may take a trip to America, and we know perfectly well that, if he goes to America, it will be a propaganda trip in support of the Tory Party in the Six Counties. Will that sort of expenditure rank for recoupment out of the£10,000? If so, we think it is very unfair.
Another difficulty will be to determine the expenses of the household at Hills-borough which will rank as official expenses, as against the personal and family expenses of the Governor. The Home Secretary has explained to us that the Governor would be expected to make a contribution for his personal and family expenses and for his personal guests. I should like to know who will determine who, at a certain period, are the State guests in the Governor's house and who the personal guests, which wine will be paid for by the State and which paid for by the Governor. All that kind of difficulty will crop up, and I think that we are setting a very unfair precedent. The scope of this proposal is far too wide, and it will leave the office open to abuses—and it is being very seriously abused.
We must also consider that in addition to the£10,000, Parliament here is undertaking responsibility for the heating, lighting, fuel, equipment, furniture, staff salaries, and a chauffeur and an official car for Hillsborough. This will be met from a separate Vote, apart from the£10,000, from the Public Buildings Account, and is expected to amount to a further£9,000, making the total expenses of the Governor£23,000 a year.
That is out of all proportion to the services which the Governor of Northern Ireland offers this country. The total population of the area is equivalent only to that of Birmingham or Glasgow, and I think that this Parliament would be very dilatory in voting£23,000 for a lord mayor of Glasgow or Birmingham. Therefore, it is entirely out of reason to vote this ridiculous sum of£10,000 for expenses.
We should also consider whether the duties of the Governor merit the spending of this considerable amount of money; in other words, whether there is appreciation in Northern Ireland to the people
1822
here for their generosity. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) has inquired what the duties of the Governor are. I know of only one of his functions. His main function, I think, is to sign Bills which bring nothing but mockery to the democratic institutions of this country. The Bills and the different Orders that the Governor is called upon to sign do nothing but discredit this country in the eyes of the world. And that is the Governor's principal function.
It is very significant from every Irishman's point of view—and it should not be something for a Member from Ireland to have to raise in this House—that ever since partition was established by the 1920 Act, the principal Irish Measures to be brought before this House have been financial Measures, each and every one of which has had the sole objective of giving financial relief to the Six Counties of Northern Ireland. Each and every Measure from 1920 to the present day has formed one long succession of financial reliefs. In other words, this Government here continues to subsidise partition in the Six Counties.
It is made more and more impossible for Irish people to come together and resolve their grievances so long as Parliament here votes these vast sums to interfere—for it is interference—in Irish affairs, and to consolidate the one political party in that one area of Ireland. It is being made physically impossible for the Irish question to become resolved. Therefore, I think that the people in this country will get no appreciation whatever from the Irish people for putting their hands in their pockets to this extent.
The duties of the Governor, as we see them, are merely that he continues to represent the over lordship of Britain over that part of Ireland which is called the six counties of Northern Ireland. No matter what money this Parliament spends on the Governor's office, no matter how much it is prepared to vote from this country, we shall never look upon it in any other light. The time has come when this country should consider seriously the whole question of leaving the Irish people to determine their own affairs among themselves.
Mr. Delargy: I donot wish to imply any criticism of the Chair, but I remind you, Sir Charles, that so far we have had five speeches, four of which have been

1823
delivered by hon. Members representing Northern Ireland and one by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), representing a Scottish constituency, and that I am the first Member representing an English constituency to be given, an opportunity to protest against the spending of a sum of money which will be contributed largely by English taxpayers.
Unlike my hon. Friends the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Healy) and the Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. M. O'Neill), I am not making any protest on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. I have no responsibility to them. I have a responsibility to the people of the United Kingdom, and a special responsibility to the people of Thurrock, who do not like to see their taxes increased on behalf of an institution in which they have no interest at all.
I know that this is a difficult question to answer, but I should like the Home Secretary to tell the Committee how the Governor will spend this enormous sum of£10,000. We are already assured that he does not pay any rent, that he has no fuel or transport costs, and does not pay his own office staff. On what will he spend£10,000? The Committee should have some indication before we are asked to vote in favour of the Clause.
The Amendment is far too mild. Although I support the Amendment, I should not have named a sum of money in it. I should have excluded words from the Clause and made it so read as to provide that the Governor's expenses in Northern Ireland should be determined by the Secretary of State. That would be much more equitable. I notice that the words, "from time to time determine" appear in the Clause. My recollection is that I asked the Home Secretary on Second Reading what the words meant, and that he assured me that they meant that this sum of money would be reviewed annually. I should be grateful for that assurance today.
I am very much in favour of the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire that if the office of Governor were abolished, the hon. Members representing the Six Counties might take it in turn to fulfil the duties of that office. There are 12 of them. My hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and
1824
South Tyrone would make an admirable Governor, even in a temporary capacity. It all goes to show how little the Governor has to do in Northern Ireland.
I am glad to see my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) on the Opposition Front Bench. He and one or two of my hon. Friends have done more at a week-end than the Government or the Governor of Northern Ireland have been able to do in the last 25 years. They, at least, have drawn attention to the parlous condition of employment in Northern Ireland. I see that the Governor is now going to send a deputation over here to discuss the very matters to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth drew attention. I also see that some work is now to be given to some of the unemployed in Northern Ireland. That is another direct result of what my hon. and right hon. Friends did when they visited Northern Ireland.
If the Governor did a similar job I should have no objection to increasing his salary, but he does not, and nobody seems to know what he does. I hope that the Home Secretary will give us an assurance about the annual review of expenses, and will tell us what the Governor will be doing in return for this sum of£10,000. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman gives us that assurance, we may not force the Committee to a Division.
9.0 p.m.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: It is rather remarkable that in a debate on an Amendment such as this Members on the Government benches should remain so silent. One would have thought that they would have been very anxious to support the Home Secretary and to defend this particular Clause. But perhaps they know as well as I know why they are remaining silent.
This Bill, and more particularly this Clause, is putting last things first. Last Thursday I asked the Leader of the House whether he did not think we ought to provide time for a debate on the serious unemployment position in Northern Ireland. He could not find time for that, although he has found time for this little, miserable, niggling Bill that nobody wants. The Prime Minister, in reply to a question last Thursday on the serious position in Northern Ireland, said it was very serious and very painful.

1825
If that is so, what must be the reaction of the ordinary people in Ulster at a time when thousands of unemployed are seeking jobs which do not exist under Toryism? Imagine the single man in Ulster tonight with his 32s. 6d. a week or the married man with his 54s. a week. I bet they feel delighted that, at a time when their suffering is being ignored and when this Imperial Parliament is indifferent to their difficulties, we are finding time to remove the financial difficulties and hardships which afflict the Governor.
What I cannot understand is this. Some time ago there was a Motion before this House that Members' salaries should be increased. What did we do? It was said there were shoals of letters and bags of protests from all over the country. What for? Because we were going to give each Member on an average an increase of£250 a year. If the people who protested against the£250 for Members are remaining indifferent to an increase of£6,000, it only shows what a lot of humbugs they are. Some of us never believe that the letters arrived here. None of us read them, and we did not get any or hear about them in our constituencies.
But it seems to me a shocking thing that, at a time when Northern Ireland is going through grave economic difficulties and when large sections of the industrial population are finding it difficult to make ends meet and are denied the right to work, we should bring this Measure forward to increase the Governor's salary. To me it is very inappropriate.
This week we are going to discuss defence, and all the money we are going to spend on it is for the purpose of protecting us from the dangers of aggressive, militation Communism. Believe me, if there is anything which makes Communists, it is this sort of thing where the people right at the top who have no difficulty are voted large sums of money which in the minds of the average worker are astronomical, while at the same time there is complete indifference to the workers' well-being and welfare.
It is a standing disgrace that the Members who represent Northern Ireland are not tonight protesting about this increase. They know what is happening to their own people and they know of the difficulties and sufferings which they are under-
1826
going. For my part, I could never be a party to supporting an increase of this kind on the part of a Government which is completely indifferent to the well-being of tens of thousands of loyal citizens in Ulster.
Mr. Alfred Robens: The Committee this evening is having to determine whether the maximum expenses of the Governor shall be at the rate of£10,000 or£4,000 a year. We are all agreed that it is a good thing that the salary of the Governor should be divorced from expenses. We have to decide what should be the maximum amount of expenses that he may incur.
I gathered from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman during the Second Reading debate that, merely because there was a maximum of£10,000 per annum, it did not necessarily mean that the Governor would spend that amount, and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman indicated that there would be an estimate of the expenses likely to be met and that the Governor would be expected to keep within that estimate. Consequently the Minister and the Treasury have decided that at no time could that estimate or the actual spending exceed£10,000 a year.
Two of my hon. Friends from Northern Ireland take the view that the maximum should be£4,000 and they have indicated that, from their own personal knowledge and as residents of Northern Ireland,£4,000 would be an ample upper limit for the expenses of the Governor. We have not discovered what the functions of the Governor are in respect of expenses that he will incur, although I gather that nothing can be charged if he opens Orange lodges.
Sir D. Savory: I have contradicted again and again that the Governor has ever opened Orange lodges. Why does the right hon. Gentleman repeat a charge which he knows to be untrue?
Mr. Robens: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has cleared up that matter, because it concerns many of us. Obviously, if the expenses of opening Orange lodges were to be charged against the Governor's expenses, it would be wrong.
We have to decide, therefore, whether the sum should be£10,000 or£4,000. My hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) made an important

1827
contribution when he said that at this time and day, when unemployment is mounting rapidly in Northern Ireland and week after week we see regretfully in the newspapers more and more discharges of workers from their jobs, it is important that if this Committee is to say that the maximum permitted expenses of the Governor shall be£10,000 per annum, we must have from the Home Secretary the details of how those expenses have been arrived at.
None of us wants or expects any servant of the Crown to incur expenses in his proper and lawful functions and duties and to pay for them out of his own pocket, and in this Bill we are determined that he shall receive a salary of£4,000 per annum out of which we do not expect him to pay expenses which he incurs directly as a result of his duties as Governor. Therefore, what the Home Secretary must do this evening, before we can part from this Amendment, is to satisfy the Committee that a sum of£10,000 is really necessary in connection with the duties and the functions of the Governor.
In view of the fact that we gave the Home Secretary due warning during the Second Reading debate that such was necessary, I hope he will tell us in detail what decided him and the Treasury officials that the maximum should be£10,000 and not£4,000, as my two hon. Friends have indicated, because they speak with great knowledge of the work performed by the Governor, and we do not know precisely what may be his functions, although the Home Secretary knows. I shall be glad, therefore, if the Home Secretary will spend his time on this one point as to why£10,000 was decided as the maximum sum which might be incurred as expenses, what he thinks the estimate might be for the first year and how, in great detail, he arrives at that estimate.
There are two reasons why I want the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to give us the information in great detail. One is for the benefit of public opinion in Northern Ireland. The people of Northern Ireland really must be satisfied that these expenses are proper expenses and ones necessarily incurred in the duties of the Governor. The second is that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman must give the Committee very good reasons why the
1828
maximum permitted expenses should be£10,000 and not£4,000.
I hope the Home Secretary will be able to assure us by giving us great detail about the sum required. The House of Commons will never be niggardly about providing proper expenses for servants of the Crown for whom it is responsible. I should be glad if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would give us a very careful analysis of the estimate of the proposed expenditure so that the Committee may judge whether it should agree tonight to a maximum of£10,000 or the maximum of£4,000 suggested in the Amendment.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Major Gwilym Lloyd-George): We have had a fairly exhaustive debate on the Amendment, as indeed we had on the Clause itself on Second Reading. I do not think the Committee has heard anything very new tonight. Therefore, hon. Members will not be surprised, I am sure, if they do not hear anything very new from me; the same speeches very often require the same answers.
One or two points have been put by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite and I will do my best to deal with them. I know the difficulty of confining a discussion about this part of the world to the subject of any Amendment. So it has turned out tonight. We have had a reference to Partition, which I should have thought was entirely out of order. On that subject I would merely say that the Government are simply carrying out the statute enacted by Parliament in 1920 and amended in 1922. That question is really not relevant at present, nor, I suggest, is any resolution from the National Farmers Union which apparently did not come.
It has been pointed out that many of the present Governor's predecessors were out of pocket, and indeed the present Governor is very much out of pocket as a result of his occupying the office. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said, and I agree with him, that nobody wishes any representative in such a position to experience that embarrassment.
I should like to say a word or two on the question of the salary.
Mr. M. O'Neill: When the Governor was appointed, was he aware that he would be out of pocket?
Mr. Fernyhough: When the Governor intimated that he was out of pocket, did he say by how much? Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us that?
Major Lloyd-George: No, I could not say—obviously I should not know it—but I shall deal with the point in a minute. The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. M. O'Neill) asked whether the Governor knew when he took office that he would be out of pocket. I do not know whether he did, but if he read Hansard he probably did know because when the amending Act of 1922 was going through the House the Government spokesman said that one could not carry out the duties of such posts on the salaries that were paid and that every one of the salaries had been fixed below what the occupant of the post was expected to spend.
That was in 1922. I suppose that there were then a few people who could contemplate taking an official position where they would spend more than they could possibly receive, but despite all that was said by the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Healy)—he said there were plenty of people who could do the job—I do not think there would be plenty of people who could do the job at the present time.
9.15 p.m.
I now turn to the question of the actual remuneration, which is a matter of some importance. I do not know whether it would be in order to refer to both salary and expenses, but I might do so simply to make the position quite clear and remove any misapprehension.
The Chairman: This Amendment deals only with expenses, but it might be for the convenience of the Committee to discuss the two, which obviously go together.
Major Lloyd-George: There is some confusion about this. So far as the salary is concerned—it is£4,000—that is taxable as is anybody's salary. No question arises; the£4,000 is subject to Income Tax.
The Amendment refers to the£10,000 expenses. There is a good deal of misconception about that. The Bill says that the allowance is in respect of expenses not exceeding£10,000 in any one year:
"… as the Secretary of State may, with the concurrence of the Treasury, from time to time determine."
1830
Therefore, there is a limit to the expenses that can be claimed and that limit can be varied from time to time. What the Governor gets may from year to year be varied by the Secretary of State in concurrence with the Treasury.
How was this figure of£10,000 arrived at? It was arrived at by an examination of the accounts of expediture for a specimen year and by adjusting that expenditure to take into consideration subsequent increases in wages and costs. I can assure the House that, from the examination made, it is clear that there is not likely to be a substantial margin.
The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) asked me for details. I am not able to give him actual, detailed expenses, but I can show the sort of things that would be involved. They are domestic supplies for his official duties, servants' wages, food, entertainment and the salaries of private secretaries. Judging by the examination of the specimen year's accounts, this expenditure alone would amount to almost the figure suggested in the Amendment. Salaries alone amount to about£3,600 and if to that is added just over£2,000 for food, one gets nearly£6,000 of expenses, already proved from the specimen years' accounts. These are actually proved figures and go far beyond the figure which this Amendment suggests.
When it comes to the question of how the allowance will be determined from year to year, the Committee might like to know what we have in mind. The expense allowance, which will be given, will be related to actual expenditure in any one year. Estimates will be submitted by the Governor at the beginning of the year, together with the accounts of the actual expenditure for the preceding year. The Comptroller and Auditor General will have the right of access to the relevant documents, so that there is complete control. Over-spending and under-spending during the year will be taken into account in determining the allowance for the following year.
In case I am misunderstood, let me repeat some very careful words. Somebody asked me whether this allowance of£10,000 would be subject to Income Tax. The expenses will be liable to scrutiny for Income Tax in the normal way. What that means is that they will have to be shown to have been wholly, necessarily

1831
and exclusively incurred in the performance of the duty. I think that there is a sufficient safeguard.
The estimate has to be made. That will be based on actual expenditure the previous year, and that expenditure will be very carefully scrutinised. The Secretary of State, in concurrence with the Treasury, will have to agree, and the Comptroller and Auditor General will have access to the documents. I do not think that we could possibly have a better supervision than that.
Mr. Healy: Will these expenses be put before the House of Commons? Will we be able to see them?
Major Lloyd-George: I do not think so. In any case, the hon. Gentleman need not worry. The Treasury may be relied upon to keep a careful control, and we have the Comptroller and Auditor General, too. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman need worry about that. The matter will be in pretty safe hands.
There is one other point. It was out of order to discuss unemployment on Second Reading. I want to make a short statement about it. The matter has been given great attention for a considerable time, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blythe knows. He himself has been anxious to put forward schemes, as have others. I think that I have told hon. Members before that the matter is now being examined actively, both inter-Departmentally and inter-Governmentally. I am hopeful, as the Prime Minister said recently, that the men discharged on completion of a passenger ship will be taken on for work on another ship about Easter. I hope that that will be some help.
Nobody underestimates the difficulty. We are doing everything we can to put it right.
Mr. M. O'Neill: The shipyard workers are not the only people.
Major Lloyd-George: I appreciate that. I do not want to minimise the difficulty in any way; I hope that the hon. Gentleman will acquit me of that. The fact is that the position today is a little better than it was a year ago. That does not mean to say that satisfies anybody. The Government are doing everything they possibly can to put it right.
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I am sure that the Committee will not be surpised to hear me say that I cannot accept the Amendment.
The Chairman: Does the hon. Gentleman wish to withdraw the Amendment?
Mr. Healy: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2.—(Transfer of certain appeals from divisional court to Court of Appeal.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Healy: The Northern Ireland Government have got completely out of the undertaking they gave in the 1920 Act They were obliged to pay£5,000 towards the Governor's salary. The Joint Exchequer Board, which I believe is in a unique position in that it meets only every 10 years, has reduced the liability of the Northern Ireland Government to£2,000. Now the Northern Ireland Government want to get out of all their liability.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): On a point of order. I think that the hon. Gentleman is not aware that Clause 1 has been added to the Bill and that we are now discussing Clause 2.
The Chairman: Yes. I was looking for a reference to this in the Clause. It is in Clause 1, I am afraid, and we have passed that.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 5.—(LEGISLATIVE POWER IN RESPECT OF CORONERS.)
Mr. Healy: I beg to move, in page 4, line 1, to leave out "removal."
The Chairman: Perhaps it would be convenient to discuss at the same time the Amendment in line 2, to leave out "jurisdiction or functions."
Mr. Healy: Yes. The Northern Ireland Government seek to get rid of certain responsibilities in respect of certain appointments. The Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Northern Ireland Act,

1833
1922, can be put into force any time the Government please. It is abrogated for the moment, but only temporarily. The Northern Ireland Government can
"prohibit the holding of inquests by coroners on dead bodies in any area in Northern Ireland specified in the order, either absolutely or except in such circumstances or on such conditions as may be specified in the order"
or they can
"prohibit the holding of any particular inquest specified in the order…."
That is an extraordinary power which the Northern Ireland Government seek to take. We know that it was only in the case of an emergency that the Government of this country ever sought powers of that kind, and it was only for a short time during the "Black and Tan" period in Ireland. But the Northern Ireland Government have kept this Act on the Statute Book for 30 years and they have power by Order in Council to make it effective.
Recently there occurred a case in County Derry where an inquest was to be held on a child. Out of all the specialists to whom the Northern Ireland Government pays fabulous salaries, and from all the doctors in County Derry and up to Belfast, the coroner could not find a single doctor to do a post mortem. The coroner threatened to put in force the well-known and comprehensive powers of coroners, which so frighten the Northern Ireland Government that they now wish to abolish the handicap or impediment imposed by the 1920 Act.
They will now be able to appoint their own friends on their own conditions to any position as coroner in Northern Ireland. They have an almost exclusive bench of magistrates or referees or chairmen of tribunals, every single one of whom was prominent politically or as a helper of the Northern Ireland Government in quite recent times. They wish now to take the same powers with regard to the appointment of coroners. This is something which is whittling down the 1920 Government of Ireland Act Section by Section and line by line until it is repealed.
The limitations of the 1920 Act were imposed in order that ultimately there might be a united Ireland; that the Northern Ireland Government should eventually feel the need of a united Ireland. In the meantime, certain impediments were imposed on them to make
1834
them reconsider their antagonism to a united country. That is the reason why my hon. Friends and I oppose Clause 5.
Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: I am a little puzzled by the terms in which the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Healy) moved his Amendment. He said that, as it stands at present, the Clause would give power to the Government of Northern Ireland to appoint coroners from among their friends in a way which would be objectionable to him, but in his Amendment he says nothing about appointments at all.
9.30 p.m.
The hon. Member objects to the Government of Northern Ireland being able to legislate for the removal of coroners, and also in regard to their jurisdiction and functions, but he says nothing about the appointment of coroners. The present law relating to coroners in Northern Ireland dates back to the old days of the Union, when the whole of Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. It is governed by the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, which laid down that the appointment of coroners should be—as it is in this country today—in the hands of local authorities, and also that the power to remove coroners for disability or misconduct of any kind should rest with the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
When the Government of Ireland Act was passed in 1920, and local Government in Northern Ireland was set up, that power of the Lord Chancellor devolved upon the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. So far as I know there has never been any complaint about that power, but it may be that the Government of Northern Ireland, as part and parcel of the whole question of coroners, wish to legislate for the removal of coroners as well as for their appointment.
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone spoke about the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act, 1922, under which the Government of Northern Ireland, he suggested, had power to prohibit of holding of inquests altogether. That is not my construction of that Act. Section 10 does not give an absolute power of prohibition; it merely gives a limited power of substitution. It says:
"the Minister of Home Affairs may … prohibit the holding of inquests by coroners on dead bodies… in Northern Ireland…."

1835
It goes on to say that if he does that he has to provide that both the functions of the coroner and jury must be carried out by someone else.
There is no power to prohibit inquests. There must always be an inquest on a dead body, where the circumstances are unusual and a doctor's certificate has not been issued.
Mr. Healy: Can the hon. and gallant Member tell me for what purposes the Northern Ireland Government want to prohibit the holding of an inquest?
Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: The Northern Ireland Government never wished to prohibit the holding of an inquest. What they wished to do, for purposes of convenience, was, in certain cases, to make it possible for the coroner to sit without a jury.
Mr. Healy: Section 10 (1, a) says that the Minister may
"prohibit the holding of inquests by coroners on dead bodies in any area of Northern Ireland specified in the order, either absolutely or except in such circumstances or on such conditions as may be specified in the order; or, prohibit the holding of any particular inquest specified in the order…"
Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: It is perfectly clear on the face of it that there is no absolute power to prohibit the holding of an inquest. There is simply the power of substitution, namely, that a coroner can in certain circumstances sit without a jury. In England and, I believe, in Scotland only in a very small proportion of cases is it necessary for a coroner to sit with a jury. The purpose of this Section was simply to allow the coroner in those cases to sit without a jury in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Healy: It says in subparagraph (c) that the Minister may:
"Provide for the duties of a coroner and a coroner's jury (or either of them) as respects any inquest prohibited by the order…"
Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: I do not want to take up the time on the Committee on this point.
I have not the Act in front of me, but from my reading of it I understand that the way in which it has been applied in Northern Ireland has simply meant that in certain circumstances the coroner can sit without a jury. The coroner to whom
1836
this power has been applied particularly has been the Coroner for the City of Belfast, who has to hold an average of three inquests a day. It is not convenient, except when he should ask for it, for him always to sit with a jury.
The purpose of this Clause is to bring the law concerning coroners in Northern Ireland into line with the law for the rest of the United Kingdom under the Coroners Act, 1926, which sets out quite clearly the circumstances in which coroners should sit with juries and the circumstances in which it is not necessary for them to have juries. I am sure that the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone will appreciate that a much greater strain is put upon the juries in Northern Ireland than those in this country.
There is a much larger jury panel in Northern Ireland. That is because here it is the exception rather than the rule that civil actions in the High Court should be tried with a jury, but in Northern Ireland it is the rule rather than the exception that civil cases should have juries. That means that greater demands are made upon the jurors of Northern Ireland, and that is all the more so because the power of challenging jurors in the High Court and in the lower courts is much more frequently exercised in Northern Ireland than it is in this country. A very large jury panel has to be maintained. Therefore, it is an incubus upon the coroner if he has to have a jury in cases in which in this country it would not be necessary for him to sit with a jury.
That brings me back to the Special Powers Act, which simply confers upon the coroner the right of sitting without a jury. It certainly seems not unreasonable that the Parliament of Northern Ireland should have power to legislate in all matters relating to coroners, and to bring the law in relation to coroners into line with the law in this country. It is therefore time——
The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. and gallant Gentleman seems to be advancing an argument which would be more appropriate to the Motion, That the Clause stand part of the Bill, than to this specific Amendment.
Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone has

1837
sought to restrict the powers which it is proposed to confer upon the Government of Northern Ireland in regard to this matter. He has not sought to restrict completely those powers, but simply to restrict them in relation to removal, with which I have already dealt, and in regard to jurisdiction and functions. My point is that, in regard to jurisdiction and functions, which are the essence of the question, the Parliament of Northern Ireland should specifically have power to legislate, and so bring the law in relation to coroners in Northern Ireland into line with that of England.
Mr. Healy: I would draw the attention of the hon. and gallant Member for Belfast, North (Lieut.-Colonel Hyde) to what the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act said. He has tried to convey the idea to the Committee that the simple question here is that the Northern Ireland Government desire powers for coroners to hold inquests without a jury. It is the very opposite. That Government want to get rid of both the coroner and the jury. The Act says that the Minister may, by Order,
"… provide for the duties of a coroner and a coroner's jury (or of either of them) as respects any inquest prohibited by the Order being performed by such officer or court as may be determined by the Order."
It says "officer or court." They want to get rid of both coroner and jury and to appoint an officer or court.
Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: The effect of the two Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South. Tyrone (Mr. Healy) would be to emasculate the Clause. I gather from his speech that that is not his intention and that he approves of the general intention of the Clause.
He now raises the point which was raised by the hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) on the Second Reading, that if the Clause were passed the Northern Ireland Government might give an undertaking that, as a quid pro quo they would give up the power of prohibiting inquests. In my reply I gave the House an assurance that the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act of
1838
Northern Ireland had no conceivable reference to what is intended to be done under the Clause.
Following on the debate, I got into touch with the Northern Ireland Government. I can now confirm that that statement is strictly correct. One Section of the Civil Authorities Act enables the Government of Northern Ireland to substitute an alternative form of tribunal for the regular coroner's court. There is no intention whatever on the part of the Northern Ireland Government to take anything resembling such powers in the new coroner's legislation for which they are, so to speak, seeking authority under the Bill.
It has, however, come to my notice that two orders relating to the Belfast coroners, which dispense with a jury unless the coroner requests one, have remained in force as a matter of expediency. Those two orders have never been criticised in any quarter and the relief afforded to Belfast juries has been welcomed. The Northern Ireland Government have promised to promote immediate legislation to apply provisions similar to those of Section 13 of our Coroners (Amendment) Act, 1926. That Section provides for the holding of inquests without juries in certain cases. The law in Northern Ireland will be on the same basis as it is here.
This provision will allow those orders to be terminated without inconvenience. I am assured that, in future, similar orders will not be used except in circumstances of real and immediate necessity.
9.45 p.m.
I think that gives the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. M. O'Neill) a full answer to the points he raised. I can assure him that the matter would not be affected by his Amendment, but, as the matter has been discussed, I thought it might be most appropriate for me to give the answer now.
Amendment negatived.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule agreed to. Bill reported, without Amendment.
9.46 p.m.
Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The Bill has been fully discussed and each Clause in it has been passed by the Committee without a Division. We are now, of course, confined to discussing what is in the Bill, and, as the House has clearly indicated that it approves each of the provisions of the Bill separately, I hope that it will now see its way to give a unanimous Third Reading to the Bill.
9.47 p.m.
Mr. Robens: I think we can agree to give this Bill its Third Reading without a Division, but there is one point which I think might be cleared up before we part with it and it goes to another place.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. M. O'Neill) asked the Home Secretary whether or not particulars of the expenses of the Governor would be given to this House. I rather gathered from the reply that the Minister said that they would not be given, but I should like the Joint Under-Secretary to clear up the point.
Would it not be the case that, if my hon. Friend were to put down a Question at the appropriate time as to what were the actual expenses incurred by the Governor of Northern Ireland, he would be given a reply either by the Home Secretary, the hon. Gentleman himself or somebody from the Treasury? Surely, it must be the case that, when Parliament has decided that a maximum of£10,000 may be incurred as expenses, Parliament should be able to inquire from time to time what is the exact amount of expenses in total which has been claimed? I think that if the hon. Gentleman were to clear up that point, it would give a rather better reply to the question which my hon. Friend put to him.
Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: If I may reply, by leave of the House, I would repeat that, as my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary said, the particulars of the Governor's expenses being charged on the Consolidated Fund will not be before the House in the ordinary way. I am advised that in such cases, if the right hon. Gentleman or any hon. Member were to put down a Question, an answer could be given in principle, but not in detail. I am not quite certain how far that goes, I am bound to confess. I think the hon. Member would be given
1840
all the information he required for the purposes of argument without being told the precise particulars of an individual private income, which would otherwise have to be disclosed. I think that is the answer which the right hon. Gentleman requires.
Sir William Darling: On a point of order. Is it not quite improper for a promise to be given that the private financial relations between a taxpayer and the Revenue may be disclosed to an hon. Member of this House?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): That is not a point of order for me at all.
9.50 p.m.
Sir D. Savory: I have been under the impression during the whole of the discussion on the Bill that the question in which some hon. Members are interested is not that of the Governor's salary, but that what they really want is to have no Governor at all. They have simply used the Bill——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We can only discuss now what is in the Bill.
Sir D. Savory: What is in the Bill has been proved to be absolutely reasonable: first, that the salary of the Governor is one on which he has to pay Income Tax, and that the allowance for expenses is extremely reasonable compared with the expenses allowed to our Governors and to our Ambassadors abroad. A full answer has been given on that question.
With regard to the£2,000, on which stress has been laid, it has also been shown that this expense, although nominally no longer to be defrayed by the Government of Northern Ireland, will be met by the fact that the Government of Northern Ireland have taken over the secretarial and the office expenses—the maintenance of the office, typewriters, and so on—and that this will really amount to the£2,000 which nominally the Government of Northern Ireland are no longer paying.
The question of coroners has been dealt with fully by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary. It has been shown that what the Government of Northern Ireland desire is simply to have the same position as the Government over here. My right hon. and gallant Friend

1841
has given an assurance that in no case under the Special Powers Act will the verdict be taken away from the coroner, but that it may be a question, as is so often the case in England, of having a coroner's inquest without the jury because such a large number of cases comes before the Belfast jury and a good deal of unnecessary strain would be put upon them if it were always essential for a coroner to have a jury. It is, therefore, purely a practical question and not a political question, and it has been solved most reasonably.
The Bill is necessary owing to the fact that, as has been shown, the Governor is unable to meet his expenses, and we do not want him any longer to be financially embarrassed. The remaining Clauses of the Bill are largely technical and I am glad that they have been allowed to pass unopposed. I therefore share the hope of my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State that the Bill will be given a Third Reading without a Division.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

FISHERIES [MONEY]
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to increase the maximum amount of the grants which may be made out of moneys provided by Parliament to the Herring Industry Board for the promotion of the sale of herring and other purposes; to confer on the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State powers to make grants and loans for the execution, for the benefit of the fishing industry, of harbour and other works and to determine certain existing powers in that behalf; to empower the Secretary of State to operate dredgers; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient—
(1) To authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of—

(a) any increase in the sums, payable out of moneys so provided which is attributable to any provisions of the said Act raising by five hundred thousand pounds the limit imposed by subsection (1) of section five of the White Fish and Herring Industries Act, 1948, upon the aggregate amount of the grants which may be made under that subsection out of
1842
moneys so provided and enabling that limit to be further raised by an amount not exceeding two hundred and fifty thousand pounds;

(b) any expenses incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State in giving, to public authorities or associations of persons or companies not trading for profit, financial assistance in respect of—

(i) the execution of works for the construction, improvement or repair of harbours, piers, quays, jetties, boatslips or slipways in Great Britain, the landward approaches thereto or buildings, structures or apparatus thereat;

(ii) costs incurred in or in connection with the preparation of plans and specifications of such works, reports with respect thereto and estimates of expenses to be incurred for the purposes of the execution thereof; or

(iii) the remuneration of persons employed in an advisory or supervisory capacity in connection with the execution of such works;

(c)any expenses incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Secretary of State by virtue of any provision of the said Act vesting in the one or the other of them liabilities of the Treasury under agreements made by the Treasury for the making, under Part I of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, of advances for the construction or improvement of harbours; and

(d) any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in operating dredgers;

(2) to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of—

(a) any sums received under or by virtue of the said Act of the present Session by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Secretary of State; and

(b) any moneys in the hands of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer representing any part of sums heretofore provided by Parliament for the purposes of the Fisheries Act, 1824; and

(3) to authorise the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State respectively, as respects—

(a)any loan made by him under the said Act of the present Session; or

(b)any loan in respect of which rights and liabilities of the Treasury vest in him by virtue of the said Act of the present Session;

to remit (with the consent of the Treasury) payment of interest on, or repayment of the principal of, the loan, or both."
Resolution agreed to

FISHERIES BILL
Considered in Committee.
[Sir RHYS HOPKIN MORRIS in the Chair]
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2.—(Financial assistance for CONSTRUCTION, IMPROVEMENT AND REPAIR OF FISHING FACILITIES.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
9.54 p.m.
Mr. C. N. Thornton-Kemsley: I shall not detain the Committee for any length of time at this hour, but I should like to ask one or two questions about the Clause, which is of great importance to constituencies which have inshore fishing harbours. As I understand it, the grants for harbour improvements are made at present by the Treasury upon the advice provided from the Development Commission. But, in practice, in the case of Scotland the Development Commissioners, before recommending a grant, always go to the Scottish Home Department and ask for advice.
The Commissioners comprise, I believe, of seven or eight unpaid members, only one of whom represents Scotland. It must be clear, therefore, that the advice of the Scottish Home Department has been decisive in any consideration by the Treasury of whether a grant should be made.
I have no complaints about the way in which the present procedure has worked, but I have had recent experience, however, with regard to the harbour at Gourdon, in my constituency, where an improvement to the breakwater of the outer harbour and improvement to the quays and quay walls cost£27,000. That was a very heavy cost indeed. There was also a sum for harbour lighting.
Everyone was extremely helpful. We had very good advice from the Firth of Forth Fishermen's Association, whose jurisdiction extends as far north as my constituency. The Kincardineshire County Council, which is the harbour authority, was very helpful, and so was the Scottish Home Department. We received a grant of 75 per cent. of the cost. I do not complain about that, but
1844
it so happens that the grant does not really cover the cost.
The amount to be found by the county council is such that I am afraid it is almost inevitable that it will have to ask for increased landing dues on the fish landed in that harbour. In a small county like Kincardineshire the sums which are necessary to meet capital costs of improvements of this order on comparatively small harbours like Gourdon, Johnshaven and Stonehaven, together with the annual cost of maintenance of the harbours, are such that almost inevitably it is more than the harbour authority can bear, and more than the rates can bear without a considerable increase in landing dues.
It seems to me entirely justified that when the joint Under-Secretary, representing the Secretary of State, takes over responsibility for these harbours from the Development Commissioners, he should consider the ease of small counties like Kincardineshire, and that the grants should be generous, because these small harbours are harbours of refuge to shipping in times of storm.
Will the grants which are contemplated under the Clause coyer harbour lighting, which is an expensive item? It is not clear from the wording whether the Clause also covers the erection of fish markets at the pier head. That is something which is very often required. I hope that it is covered by the Clause. I plead with the Joint Under-Secretary that the Clause should be interpreted as widely and as generously as possible.
10.0 p.m.
Mr. Edward Evans: We have two great problems on the East Coast, one of recent origin and one of very ancient origin. They are the problem of erosion and the problem of flooding. I was very disappointed to find, on Second Reading, that the sum envisaged in the Financial and Explanatory Memorandum in respect of harbours was more or less stabilised at£291,000 a year. I hope very much that the Minister will tell us that that sum can be extended ad infinitum—if that is the proper phrase.
It is obvious if we are going to have a limited sum, the position will be difficult when flooding or erosion takes place, as it does on the East Coast. I am hoping that these harbour grants will be available for the restitution of harbour works

1845
and that where necessary, it will be possible to make an arrangement with the coast protection authority where danger is caused by surrounding erosion and by flooding. I should like some sort of an assurance that we are not going to be tied down to the global sum of£291.000.
Mr. Douglas Marshall: I should like to support what the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Edward Evans) said, that there should be a certain degree of flexibility in order to meet coast defence needs. Attention was drawn to that aspect on the Second Reading of the Bill, and I trust that the Minister will make a reference to it, and confirm that there is flexibility and that we are not limited to this sum.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Henderson Stewart): I can give that assurance immediately, and say that it was given by the Minister of Agriculture in the Second Reading debate. In reply to a question of a similar nature by the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Edward Evans) he said:
"As far as I know there is no limit whatever on the amount."—[Official Report, 14th February, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 39.]
Each case will be considered on its merits, as it has been in the past.
The figure here is an estimate of what we fancy may be the expenditure next year, based upon our experience in the past year or two. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) that applications will always be looked at in as generous and as liberal fashion as possible. But that is nor. quite ad infinitum as suggested by the hon. Member for Lowestoft.
Mr. Edward Evans: I could not think of a better term.
Mr. Stewart: No, I think we all appreciate that.
As to Gourdon Harbour, as my hon. Friend knows, there is an application by the county council before us now for a very substantial scheme costing a good deal of money, and that is being examined. I have no doubt that items such as harbour lighting and fish markets could quite properly be included in an application for a scheme under this Clause, but again each case must be examined and approved on its merits. That being so I hope that I
1846
have satisfied those who have asked questions.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill,
Clauses 3 to 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

OFFICERS' PENSIONS
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Studholme.]
10.5 p.m.
Brigadier Ralph Rayner: As a retired officer, I rise once again to bring forward the question of the pay of retired officers, for I consider that the Treasury must reconsider its attitude towards the Services. When I was a young officer that attitude used to be, "Give 'em as little as you can and take back what you can when you can," and it is an attitude which still persists. In those early days it was regarded as rather a joke, if a wry one, because the pound was still a golden sovereign, and although pay and pensions had not changed between 1840 and 1914, most officers had private resources. The-first world war began to change all that, the value of the£ began to vary, and private means to melt away.
In debates we have had on this subject one Government spokesman after another has held that all servants of the Crown must be considered as a whole. This is not fair. The civil servant is able to marry early, establish a home, buy a house, perhaps to save, whereas the officer who is moved about the world chessboard, can do none of those things. I will not labour the differences between the officer and the civil servant because they have been referred to so many times, but there is one Treasury argument I must mention, that the officer retires early and therefore draws his pension for a much longer time. The fair way of expressing that truth is that the civil servant is lucky enough to enjoy full pay much longer than the officer.
Moreover, the dictum that servants of the Crown should be treated equally becomes even more suspect when one notices how often the Civil Service is able to

1847
better itself. Again I will not waste the time of the House by quoting figures that have often been quoted, but there is no doubt that our national set-up is a bit cock-eyed in that way as in so many others. The agricultural worker is perhaps the most skilled and hard-working man in the country. Yet when his wages So up, the wages of the industrial worker, even though he is still something to the good, have to go up too so that he may keep his place.
So I am afraid it is with the Civil Service. If the pensions and pay of the Army go up, the pay of the civil servant, who is already several notches to the good, has to go up so that he may keep his advantage. Senior civil servants, usually first-class chaps, often agree that this is unfair, and Lord Hailey, speaking in another place in the debate on this subject on 20th January, 1953, in referring to the pensions of officers who retired in 1919 said:
"I believe that all retired civil officers … would agree that the officers of the Armed Forces must have a prior claim."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 20th January, 1953; Vol. 179, c. 1123.]
I draw the attention of the Government to that powerful and generous expression of opinion. I hope that the Undersecretary of State for War will suggest to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence that, amidst all the terrible problems that cluster around him, he should ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take a new look at the question of officers' pensions. Surely no increase in pension should be subject to a means test. Surely a pension is earned or it is not earned, and in these days, when the industrial unemployment pay means test has been abolished, it is disgraceful that an officer or his widow should be subject to a means test. Surely, too, it is the duty of the State to see that an officer is adequately looked after in his old age. He may have retired at 45, but we all know that after 45 it is very difficult to get a job and impossible to save.
I do not know whether some such scheme as this could be arranged. It is obviously not fair to expect that all new codes of pensions should be brought in with implemented retrospection, but could not an officer retiring be given, according to his appropriate code, x pounds per year and when he reaches 60 or 65 be given
1848
x plus y pounds per year, the y element depending upon the cost of living? I am not competent to say whether that would work or not, but I repeat that we ought to do something a bit better about our Service pensions. Other countries all over the world are doing their retired warriors rather than better than we do ours.
I think it might even be fair to argue that a review of Service pensions should be included in the general review of armaments which is now taking place. Tomorrow and the day after we shall talk about all sorts of fantastic weapons, but we all know that when it comes to the point what matters most is men and morale. There is no doubt about it that many serving officers, however satisfied they may be with their pay, are very worried about their pensions. They see their elderly friends of the 1919 vintage trying to make do on the 1919 pension, and they wonder whether when the time comes their own pensions will buy no more than the 1919 pension buys today. This is not good enough in these days when we want the best boys in the Service. There is no doubt that a lot of serving and retired officers are dissuading their boys from entering the Service, and it is their boys that the Services want.
I now turn to the specific case of the officers who retired on the 1919 code. In that year the Government established a code by which pensions would rise or fall by 20 per cent. according to the cost of living. In 1935 another Government stabilised those pensions at 9½ per cent. below the 1919 rate. Under pressure, 10 per cent. was restored by the Government the other day with all the trappings of a generous gesture. It was not generous at all. If one takes 9½ from 100 one gets 90½ if one increases that by 10 per cent. one gets 99½. Therefore, the situation is that the survivors of the bloodiest war in history, a war in which most Regular officers in the Army, at any rate, were killed bearing the first brunt, are subsisting today on less than the 1919 pension. That cannot be described as "generosity."
But it is not really a matter of generosity; it is a matter of right. I hold that the 1919 officers were promised 20 per cent. more and that they should get it. But the Government say "No," so I propose now to examine the arguments which the last Minister of Defence put forward in another place and his Parliamentary

1849
Secretary put forward in this place in three debates, with considerable personal discomfort I thought at that time.
First, it is held that in the Royal Warrant of 1919 the word "may" was used and not "shall" or "will." If any hon. Member reads that Royal Warrant today, he will decide, I think, that the intention of the Government of 1919 was that the pension would be raised 20 per cent. with the cost of living. Indeed, in the orders that translated that Royal Warrant into Naval and Air parlance, the words "shall" and "will" were in fact used. In 1935 the Treasury got hold of the word "may" and twisted it in the usual Treasury way to the disadvantages of the Services. That action was described in another place as "a rather mean quibble," and so of course it was.
Their second argument was that in 1935 officers welcomed the stabilisation of the Code. I have made wide inquiries and I cannot believe that that was so. Officers knew their Treasury and had seen the cost of living go up a little in 1934. However, although I cannot prove that they did not welcome it, the Government certainly cannot prove that they did. The truth of the matter is that it was not a question of "Take it or leave it," but just a question of "Take it."
Their third argument was even poorer. No Government, they said, could be expected to hark back and restore benefits cancelled out so long ago, and that if they did it would open the door to all sorts of other claims from all sorts of other pensioners. The open-door argument is a classic Treasury argument, but in this case it certainly does not apply, for there was a definite agreement in 1919 between a definite Government and a definite number of officers. There are not many left and the liability is even more limited today.
Lastly, they stated that in 1935 the new stabilisation seemed to be eminently fair as the cost of living was steady and seemed likely to remain so. "How could the Treasury be expected to foresee a vast rearmament programme?" asked the Parliamentary Secretary in a debate in this House in December, 1952. That is the poorest argument of them all. In 1934, Hitler had got into his stride and all over the country people were seeing the red light. Even I as a most humble candidate in South Devon had made 19 reported speeches in 1934 in which I said that
1850
unless we rearmed to the teeth war was inevitable. I have my news cuttings book here, if anybody likes to challenge that statement.
The Treasury, as we all know, is always filled with some of the very best chaps in the Civil Service. We have reason as taxpayers to be grateful to them on many occasions. But on that occasion and on that date, if they were so stupid as not to see what was coming to us, then they have no right to visit their stupidity on a few helpless pensioners. I therefore submit that the Government's defence is so lame as to be permanently disabled and that it would be rejected by any 12 good men and true anywhere in the country. I ask once again that this limited, but very definite liability of the 1919 pensions should be reconsidered by the Treasury.
I conclude as I began on a rather wider note. In this country we are enveloped in a welfare state which appropriates a very large slice of the national income. A good deal of that money is used to provide benefits for people who could well fend for themselves and it is rather a pity that we cannot divert some of it towards giving better pensions. But although we live in the age of the common man it is still to the uncommon man that we must look to give us prosperity in peace and to save us in war. I have tried this evening to plead for those uncommon men who fought our ships and led our regiments and wings in one of the greatest wars in history. I hope that the Government will give it further consideration, for it will not pay in the long run to neglect them.
10.20 p.m.
Brigadier Christopher Peto (Devon, North): I wish to reinforce what has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Totnes (Brigadier Rayner). In particular, I want to ask the Undersecretary to answer a question which has not so far been answered—why it was that in Command Paper 9092, in paragraph 26, it was stated that the Government:
"accepted the recommendation of the Royal Commission in respect of Civil Servants and a similar recommendation made by the May Committee in respect of Forces' Officers…"
that these pensions should be stabilised, whereas, in fact, paragraph 114 of the May Report says exactly the opposite, that:
"We think it is not inequitable that as from a date as soon as possible after 1st July, 1931,

1851
the rate of deduction should be based on the average cost of living over a period of six months before that date and that it should thereafter be subject to more frequent review."
That is entirely in the opposite sense to Command Paper 9092.
Paragraph 173 says:
"We have already recommended an acceleration of the cost of living adjustment on pay and existing pensions and a similar adjustment should be made on future pensions."
Will the Government kindly answer the question why they have misquoted the May Report, misrepresented it throughout the country, and misinterpreted it.
The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Fitzroy Maclean)The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Fitzroy Maclean) rose——
Miss Irene Ward: Tell your boss to fight the Treasury.
Mr. Maclean: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has asked me to reply to the debate. Everybody is bound to have considerable sympathy with the retired officers whose cause my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Totnes (Brigadier Rayner) has pleaded so eloquently. I certainly have myself. But it must be remembered that their claims must inevitably be considered in relation to numerous other claims also deserving of sympathy, and in relation to the limited sums of money available.
As my hon. and gallant Friend pointed out, this whole subject has been debated a number of times recently. The arguments on both sides have been repeated again and again, and I am afraid that there is very little that I can add to the very full statements on Government policy which have been made on those occasions and in the White Paper of March, 1954.
As I understand the position, my hon. and gallant Friend's fundamental demand is for a general increase in officers' retired pay unrestricted by any means test. That would cut across a principle to which the present Government and their predecessors have long adhered; that is the principle that occupational pensions are varied only on grounds of hardship. By "hardship" in this context I mean not merely a reduction in the standard of living but severe hardships suffered by those on small total incomes, caused by falls in the value of money. It was on this principle that the Pensions Increase Acts of 1920, 1924, 1944, 1947, and 1952
1852
and the corresponding Prerogative Instruments were based.
There are two points which I should like to emphasise once more in this connection. First, it must be remembered that public service pensions, being occupational pensions, are entirely different in character from, on the one hand, national retirement pensions and, on the other, war disability pensions. For instance, the old-age pension is contributory and aims at providing an assured basic income for old age. The Ministry of Pensions war pension compensates for loss of faculties, for disabilities sustained by the Service man due to his service.
The public service pension, on the other hand, is based on length of service and rank or pay on retirement. The other point is——
Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton: But——
Mr. Maclean: I am sorry, but I cannot give way——
Mr. Ede: The hon. Member would lose his place if he gave way.
Mr. Maclean: Secondly, retired officers in the lower income ranges are already entitled to have their awards supplemented on grounds of hardship, and any proposal to remove the means test would benefit principally those who are relatively better off.
My hon. and gallant Friend has suggested some kind of reversion to the system of varying pensions in accordance with the cost-of-living index. That was the system introduced in 1919, and it was decided to abolish it in 1932 on the grounds that it was thought unsound that the remuneration of Crown servants should vary directly with the cost of living, whereas the remuneration of other members of the community should not.
Brigadier Peto: They are the only people who do not.
Mr. Maclean: There are large categories of people with fixed incomes as well as Crown servants.
My hon. and gallant Friend also suggested that officers who retired under the 1919 pensions code have been the victims of a breach of faith—[HON. Members: "Hear, hear."]—because of the decision to stabilise pensions at a level of 9£ per

1853
cent, below the rates of 1919; But it is important to realise that the pensions code of 1919 was no more a contract entered into between the Government and retired officers than was the stabilisation of 1935. They were, in fact, both imposed—if "impose" is the word to use of an administrative act—by the Government on the officers in question. As has been said before, there is no real reason to suppose that the decision to stabilise which was taken in 1932 and implemented in 1935 was unpopular with those concerned.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: It was still an imposition.
Mr. Maclean: There is a tendency to talk as though the 9½ per cent. cut were still in operation. But, as hon. Members will be aware, that is not the case. Although my hon. and gallant Friend accused the Government of lacking in generosity, they did restore that cut, and that has, in one sense, finally done away with the whole system of variable awards. It was a system which was tried for a short time and was found to be unsatisfactory, and it was finally abandoned in 1935.
I would repeat once more that the principle regulating Government policy in this whole question is that the pensions of former public servants should not, in general, be adjusted to meet changes in circumstances which arise after their retirement.
Brigadier Peto: Why was it done in 1932?
Mr. Maclean: That change has been done away with by the Government's Measure last year. In 1935, pensions were stabilised finally to meet the cost of living at that time.
Miss Ward: Jolly bad show.
Mr. Ede: The poor fellow has to read it.
Mr. Maclean: I can only repeat that that is the principle upon which these pensions are awarded. It has also to be borne in mind that there is another aspect of the question. It is all very well for the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) to chip in the whole time, but the same principle was applied by his
1854
Government and by succeeding Governments.
Miss Ward: But we must do better than they did.
Mr. Maclean: I am addressing myself to the right hon. Member for South Shields, and what his Government did.
Miss Ward: But they were no good.
Mr. Maclean: My hon. Friend supported the Governments——
Miss Ward: I never supported the Opposition when they were the Government.
Mr. Maclean: She supported the Governments before and during the war, who followed the same principle.
It is also important to remember that to introduce variable service pensions would be unfair to those other members of the community also living upon small fixed incomes, and who, as taxpayers, would have to bear part of any additional help given to public service pensioners.
Captain Richard Pilkington: Cannot they be considered as a category completely apart?
Mr. Maclean: They cannot be considered completely in isolation from all other classes of the community.
The purpose of the Government's policy is to give assistance where assistance is required to relieve real hardship, as distinct from relative hardship, which a fall in the value of money is bound to inflict upon all those who live upon fixed incomes. As I have said before, the amount of assistance given must depend upon the amount of money available and upon the numerous conflicting claims with which any Government are faced. For those reasons, it would be quite wrong for my right hon. Friend to hold out any hope of an all-round increase.
10.33 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton: I have never heard a weaker or more unsatisfactory reply given at the Dispatch Box. I hope that further opportunities will present themselves of raising this matter again. It cannot be right that such an injustice should be perpetuated ad infinitum. The Under-Secretary of State

1855
has not adduced a single valid argument for the perpetuation of this injustice, and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will keep on raising this matter until whatever Government are in power are pestered into seeing that justice is done.
The hon. and gallant Member for Totnes (Brigadier Rayner) said that it was a limited liability. It is more than that; it is a diminishing liability, because the number of people concerned is diminishing. I hope that further pressure will be brought to bear upon this Government and any succeeding Government until justice is done.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
10.34 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Marlowe: The House deplores the speech of the Undersecretary of State. He completely failed to address his mind to the problem. The case of these officers is undoubtedly distinct from that of other persons, because a promise was made in 1919. His answer seems to be, "What is the difference between making a promise and breaking a promise?" It was most——
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at twenty-five minutes to Eleven o'clock

MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Sonic Bangs (Compensation for Damage)
  Sonic Bangs (Compensation for Damage)
  Steel Supplies
  Steel Supplies
  Iron and Steel Products (Estimated Demand)
  Iron and Steel Products (Estimated Demand)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Vaccination Certificates (Travellers from France)
  Vaccination Certificates (Travellers from France)
  Medical Manpower Committee (Composition)
  Medical Manpower Committee (Composition)
  Sanitary Inspectors (Recruitment)
  Sanitary Inspectors (Recruitment)
HOSPITALS
  Capital Allocation, Newcastle-upon-Tyne Region
  Capital Allocation, Newcastle-upon-Tyne Region
  Patients (Cost Per Week)
  Patients (Cost Per Week)
  Mental Hospitals
  Mental Hospitals
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Industrial Dust
  Industrial Dust
  Old-Age Pensioners (National Assistance)
  Old-Age Pensioners (National Assistance)
  Dependants' Benefits (Cost)
  Dependants' Benefits (Cost)
  OIL CARTELS (UNITED NATIONS REPORT)
  OIL CARTELS (UNITED NATIONS REPORT)
  KHERBET SIKKA, JORDAN (INCIDENTS)
  KHERBET SIKKA, JORDAN (INCIDENTS)
  SOUTH-EAST ASIA COLLECTIVE DEFENCE TREATY
  SOUTH-EAST ASIA COLLECTIVE DEFENCE TREATY
  BRANCH PASSPORT OFFICE, NORTHERN IRELAND
  BRANCH PASSPORT OFFICE, NORTHERN IRELAND
COAL
  Domestic Supplies
  Domestic Supplies
  Silicosis and Pneumoconiosis (Dust-Suppression Programme)
  Silicosis and Pneumoconiosis (Dust-Suppression Programme)
  Householders (Change of Merchants)
  Householders (Change of Merchants)
  Domestic Stocks
  Domestic Stocks
  Allocation and Stocks, Birmingham
  Allocation and Stocks, Birmingham
  Explosives (Dust Production)
  Explosives (Dust Production)
  Local Fuel Overseers
  Local Fuel Overseers
  ELECTRICITY DISTRIBUTION (NATIONAL PARKS)
  ELECTRICITY DISTRIBUTION (NATIONAL PARKS)
MINISTRY OF FOOD
  Horse Meat (Imports)
  Horse Meat (Imports)
  Imported Bacon (Departmental Profit)
  Imported Bacon (Departmental Profit)
  Trading Services (Exchequer Receipts)
  Trading Services (Exchequer Receipts)
  Sugar (Trading Deficit)
  Sugar (Trading Deficit)
  Meat, Bacon and Ham
  Meat, Bacon and Ham
  Fish
  Fish
  Butter
  Butter
  Danish Bacon
  Danish Bacon
  Slaughterhouses
  Slaughterhouses
  Tea-growing Countries (Export Duty)
  Tea-growing Countries (Export Duty)
  Meat Prices (Cheaper Cuts)
  Meat Prices (Cheaper Cuts)
EMPLOYMENT
  Remploy Factories, Wales
  Remploy Factories, Wales
  Dumbarton, Alexandria, Helensburgh and Clydebank
  Dumbarton, Alexandria, Helensburgh and Clydebank
  Nurses' Salaries (Arbitration Award)
  Nurses' Salaries (Arbitration Award)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Snow Clearance Costs (Exchequer Grants)
  Snow Clearance Costs (Exchequer Grants)
  Sewage and Sewage Effluents (Booklet)
  Sewage and Sewage Effluents (Booklet)
  Boundaries, Harlow (Order)
  Boundaries, Harlow (Order)
HOUSING
  Requisitioned Premises, Cardiff
  Requisitioned Premises, Cardiff
  Whitehaven, Ennerdale and Millom
  Whitehaven, Ennerdale and Millom
  NATIONAL FINANCE (TOBACCO TOKENS)
  NATIONAL FINANCE (TOBACCO TOKENS)
  NIGERIA (LOCOMOTIVE REPAIRS)
  NIGERIA (LOCOMOTIVE REPAIRS)
  ROYAL COMMISSIONS
  ROYAL COMMISSIONS
  DEFENCE (EXPENDITURE)
  DEFENCE (EXPENDITURE)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Indian Textiles and Manufactured Goods (Imports)
  Indian Textiles and Manufactured Goods (Imports)
  Engineering Products (Exports to U.S.S.R. and China)
  Engineering Products (Exports to U.S.S.R. and China)
  Cinema Acquisition (Rank Organisation)
  Cinema Acquisition (Rank Organisation)
  Imported Machinery (Duty-free Licensing)
  Imported Machinery (Duty-free Licensing)
  Newsprint Consumption (Magazines and Periodicals)
  Newsprint Consumption (Magazines and Periodicals)
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, LONDON AREA
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, LONDON AREA
  TELEVISION MAST AND STATION, OLD MELDRUM
  TELEVISION MAST AND STATION, OLD MELDRUM
  ROAD TRAFFIC CONVENTION
  ROAD TRAFFIC CONVENTION
  CANAL CLOSURE APPLICATIONS (ANGLING AND BOATING INTERESTS)
  CANAL CLOSURE APPLICATIONS (ANGLING AND BOATING INTERESTS)
  FOX DESTRUCTION
  FOX DESTRUCTION
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]
  2.35 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
  THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, in moving that the House do now resolve itself into Committee, might I suggest that in considering the first Amendment, standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Burden, we should concentrate our attention on the question of Parliamentary control, without, of course, entirely excluding the possibility of referring to the four new clauses which follow and hang together. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  [The LORD BLACKFORD in the Chair]
  Clause 10:
  Provision of parking places where charges made
  10.—(1) The Minister may by order made on the application of the local authority in accordance with the provisions of the First Schedule to this Act designate parking places on highways in the Metropolitan Police District for vehicles or vehicles of any class or description specified in the order, and the local authority may make charges for vehicles left in the parking places of such amount as is hereinafter specified.
  (5) The power to make orders conferred by the last foregoing subsection shall be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
  (6) Nothing in this section or an order under subsection (4) of this section shall affect the operation of section ten of the London Traffic Act, 1924, section sixty-eight of the Public Health Act, 1925, or section one hundred and twenty of the Act of 1930 (which relate to the designation of parking places).
  LORD BURDEN LORD BURDEN moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "in the Metropolitan Police District." The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List and it may be convenient if, in doing so, I mention the next Amendment standing in my name. As now drawn, the clause seems to mean that a local authority within the metropolitan district (a later Amendment by the Government brings in the City of London) may initiate the procedure for providing parking places on highways where charges may be made; but outside the Metropolitan Police District—and, assuming the later Amendment is carried, the City of London—no action can be taken by any local authority unless and until the Minister decides to make an order extending the clause to that district. Then a local authority in that area must apply to the Minister for another order designating the parking places. That appears to be the intention of the clause.
  It is, of course, quite right that in the matter of parking places where payments are to be made the Minister should proceed cautiously. There are undoubtedly good reasons why experience with such parking places should be gained in some parts of London, for anyone who has tried to park a car in London on some evenings of the week will be aware of the real need for adequate parking places and for this experiment. On the other hand, influential bodies representing the motorists regard the provisions in this and the other clauses to which the noble Earl has made reference as yet another tax and handicap upon motorists generally. I assume that the Minister will quite rightly study the working of parking places selected for the experiment. The Minister doubtless does not desire to be overwhelmed with applications from local authorities all over the country, and that may be one of the reasons for the limitations imposed in this clause. I assume that the Minister, broadly speaking, would like to see the result in certain selected places of this experiment.
  Notwithstanding all these considerations, I suggest that it would be unfortunate to select a few metropolitan boroughs, such as Poplar, Hackney and Bermondsey, or that county boroughs, like East Ham and Croydon, should have authority to ask the Minister for the provision of parking places while cities such as Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester

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  and Sheffield—to name only a few—with their tradition of local patriotism, should be left to feel that they are placed in a subservient position and are powerless to move unless the Minister first of all decides to extend the order. Under this Bill, they are placed in an inferior position to the fairly wide range of local authorities in London and in the metropolitan police district, though they would not, of course, be in an inferior position to the City of London. I should be quite satisfied if the Minister had the power to select the places where this experiment of parking places was tried out so that he could retain control over the experiment.
  I hope, however, that the Minister will consider this suggestion. The clause could, I feel, be amended by omitting from subsection (1) "in the Metropolitan Police District" and from subsection (4) the words "in addition to the Metropolitan Police District." That would enable the Minister not to confine his selected places to London: he could try the experiment in one or other of the larger provincial cities. Parliament would still be able to control the experiment, because each one of these orders, as I understand the Bill, would have to be the subject of an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses. I think that the noble Earl who is in charge of the Bill will see the purpose, broadly speaking, of that suggestion. Local authorities to-day are quite rightly very jealous of their position, and for certain responsibilities or powers—call them what you will—to be given to metropolitan boroughs, even if only as an experiment, whereas Provincial authorities are excluded, must seem to the latter a reflection upon them as local authorities. In view of those considerations, I beg to move the Amendment. I would assure your Lordships, however, that if the Minister is prepared to consider the suggestions I have put before the Committee, with your consent I shall be happy later to withdraw the Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 8, line 9, leave out ("in the Metropolitan Police District").—(Lord Burden.)
  2.40 p.m.
  LORD TEYNHAM: In rising to speak on this Amendment, and in view of my Amendments, Nos. 72, 75, 77 and 80 on the Marshalled List, I ask your Lordships' permission to speak on parking meters
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  generally. It may help your Lordships if I briefly outline what appear to be the intentions of these clauses. They will enable the Minister, by order, to designate parking places on the highway where charges may be made for parking. They also provide for the regulation of charges, the use of parking meters for collecting fees, and the removal of vehicles in certain circumstances. Local authorities are required to keep accounts of income and expenditure in respect of parking places and to meet deficits from the general rate fund, and, in the case of a surplus, after reimbursing the general rate fund, to provide parking space off the highway. The proposed arrangements which I have mentioned may, by order of the Minister, apply to any part of the country.
  Your Lordships will recall that in 1953 a Working Party reported on car parking in the London area. The Report stressed that their recommendations consisted of three interdependent proposals. The first was the construction of garages below and above the ground. The second was the introduction of parking meters on an experimental basis in the vicinity of new garages. The third was a new and balanced system of waiting restrictions. I suggest that as these clauses are at present drawn they do not appear to conform to those recommendations, and I should be glad if Her Majesty's Government would give some explanation of the matter. I emphasise that the Working Party indicated clearly that their proposals must be treated as a whole, and that it would be fundamentally unsound merely to approve perhaps one or two of them without the others. I suggest that there is no sign yet that garages, either below ground or above ground, are to be constructed at the same time that parking meters are installed.
  The Report underlined the fact that meters on their own would not make any useful contribution towards solving the parking problem and relieving congestion. Can it be that Her Majesty's Government really think that parking meters will solve this problem? A parking meter does not magically transform a section of road, where previously parking has been prohibited, into a desirable parking space. We do not have wide, straight roads in the cities of this country as they have in America, where parking meters are being used. If parking meters are installed only

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  in authorised parking places, they will do nothing to reduce the number of vehicles parked on the streets. In fact, they would, in most cases, reduce the available accommodation because of the difference in size of cars, as each meter space must be large enough to contain a large car. I cannot help feeling that if parking meters are installed widely, they will perpetuate obstruction on the highway rather than relieve it. Again, parking meters, by themselves—by that I mean without supervision—are no more effective, I suggest, in preventing the time limit from being overrun than are the present regulations that apply to authorised parking spaces. It must mean a great addition to calls on police time for enforcement—time which, in my view, can be far better spent in other directions. According to the financial provisions in Clause 14, the income from meters is to be applied to the provision of off-the-street parking accommodation, but it might well happen that in the future it would become diverted to other purposes.
  Suppose we look at the problem in America for a few minutes. A recently published Report headed Parking Meters; Bulletin No. 81 of the Highway Research Board makes very interesting reading. What does this Report say about the use of meter revenues for purposes not related to parking provisions? It says that from 7 per cent. and up to as high as 68 per cent. of meter revenue in some cities was diverted to purposes not related to parking. I trust that this may not happen on such a scale in this country, but we must not forget the raids on the Road Fund which have an unfortunate similarity. May I give the Committee an extract from The American Journal Traffic Inquiry, of April, 1954, with reference to parking meters? It says:
  "Let's face the facts—a parking meter does not limit parking. It is only a means of collecting a fee. If the parking meter is to survive, it must be able to eliminate the fast growing number of 'nickel feeders.' These parking hogs are directly responsible for the increased average parking time at curb meters. It should be emphasised that sixteen average cars could be accommodated in the same space occupied by one all-day parking hog. To combat this menace, many large cities throughout the country have reverted at least partially to the old system, and the result in every case has been a substantial increase in car space turnover."
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  American experience hardly suggests that the parking meter is proving a success since it began to be installed in 1952. I suggest that in this country the meter is already stillborn and may well prove a waste of money. It may be worth while to carry out experiments, but, in the words of the Working Party committee on car parking, it must go hand in hand with the provision of off-the-street car parks, either above or below ground; otherwise the experiment will be valueless and merely another innovation to harass the motorist and vehicle operator. I cannot help feeling that at the present time, and as a result of this Bill, motorists are much more likely to get parking meters than new underground or multi-storey garages.
  May I suggest to Her Majesty's Government four alternatives to the installation of parking meters, which I still say are of very doubtful value? The first is to allow street parking whenever it is possible to do so without interrupting the flow of traffic. The second is to provide off-street parking facilities, underground or above ground, on a scale sufficient to absorb the vehicles which cannot be accommodated in the existing street parking places. The third is to require that all new buildings erected shall, as far as possible, provide off-street parking accommodation for the vehicles which they will normally attract. The fourth is to encourage local authorities to provide off-street parking accommodation by grants from Government funds in the same way as they are at present made for classified roads. Last, but not least, if mechanical car parking systems are employed to garage cars without any manhandling, I think it will be found that motorists will be only too glad to use them. At the present time there is undoubtedly a resistance to the use of garages owing to damage caused by attendants in handling, not to mention the greasy steering wheels often found by owners on collecting their cars. If, instead of the introduction of parking meters on a big scale, my suggestions are carried out, I feel that the ordinary motorist will be induced to leave the roads and seek garages for his car.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, if I may take advantage of the invitation of the Minister who has charge of this Bill to address a few remarks

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  generally upon this Amendment, I think perhaps it may help us in time—I think that we have all to have one eye on the clock—and it may also facilitate the fullness of his reply. I can state my view plainly, and I think it is the view of the majority of noble Lords, if not all, who sit on this side of your Lordships' House. We are fundamentally opposed to the use of the Queen's highway for garaging motor cars. We are equally fundamentally opposed to charging for the Queen's highway to be let out for garaging motor cars. But, having said that, I must add that we are up against a very difficult problem. I am afraid that we shall have to sacrifice both those principles upon the altar of expediency. So I am in the position of trying very hard to find a way to help Her Majesty's Government solve what is getting to be an almost intractable problem, and one which, unless we do solve it, may have some dire consequences within the next two or three years.
  There is, however, one thing that we in your Lordships' House must lay down in this Bill: that however we sink our principles, and however much we acquiesce in street parking and charging for street parking, it is essential that the main highways in our towns and cities should be kept clear for the passage of vehicles using the roads for the purpose for which they were built—that is, the free flow of traffic. That is the sense of the Amendment I have down; I think it is the third one from the one we are now discussing. I find myself in the position of agreeing with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has said. I do not see how this experiment, as it is proposed to be tried under this Bill, will prove anything other than one thing, and that we know already: that when authorities start charging for parking on the highway they will collect a great deal of money. As Lord Teynham said, that is about the only thing this experiment will prove; it will not provide any more space. I believe the noble Lord is right, and that charging for parking may be a very great temptation not only for Chancellors of the Exchequer but for local authorities as well. I think there must be uniformity in charging. I believe that Parliament will have to retain control. I do not agree with the principle of allowing the control of the broad principles of how this Bill is to be operated in respect
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  of parking and charging to be at the mercy of sundry local authorities.
  We are dealing with a very serious problem, the free flow of our traffic right through this country—because what the Bill really seeks to solve is, in one word, congestion. I suggest to the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, that he could do away with Lord Teynham's fears, and my fears as well, if he could put something in the Bill to say that any local authority who wished to designate streets for parking and to charge for them should provide off-street parking first—and I emphasise "first." It should be a condition that no local authority will be given permission by the Minister to set aside street space for parking until motorists have somewhere to drive their cars. Otherwise, where are you going to drive the motorists to? Into the river? Or into the sea? Because that is where you will eventually end up. It is like dropping a pebble in a pond; there will be an ever-growing circle.
  If the local authority are committed to providing, first, a reasonable amount of off-street parking—which it was their duty to do thirty years ago, and which they have neglected to do—with or without the aid of money borrowed from the Government, then the repayment can be made from the parking fees. I think that is the only inducement likely to produce off-street parking; because I believe that if the Government go about it the other way, the way set out in this Bill now, it will give every inducement to local authorities not to provide off-street parking. Why should they when they can let their streets out?
  I now come to my last real objection to this clause, having given way on the two principles that I hold dear; I cannot agree that parking meters are the right way to go about this matter. It is easy to compare this country with America, and comparisons have been made over a very wide field between the way we do things in this country and the way they do them in America. But the two countries are not analogous at all. Without saying anything against American architecture, I would ask: are your Lordships going to have a row of these hideous things standing on pedestals every seven feet round some of London's squares of great architectural beauty? Are noble Lords going to have them outside their own homes, if they happen to

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  live in London or some other city? Do they want to drive up to their own front doors to find that somebody has bought the space? Do they want to have to put money in a slot machine? Are your Lordships going to have these meters all down Bond Street, outside the shops? How will people get to the shops? What is the driver of a brewer's dray going to say when delivering barrels of beer at a local "pub," when he finds a parking meter outside and others every seven feet up the road, and the space occupied by motor cars? And if your Lordships agree to this as an experiment and it is found that the wrong places have been designated, are these meters going to be uprooted and taken somewhere else?
  That is one side of the story. The noble Earl who is going to reply may give some reasons to show that parking meters are good things. But on balance, is this the right way of doing it? Perhaps the noble Earl will tell us how they will operate. What happens if a motorist overstays his time? To whom does he give the money? He cannot put it in the parking meter, because the time has expired. Does he have to run around and find the park attendant to give him the money? Is it worth while for the attendant to stay there all day or not? Has the noble Earl thought of the possibility of the setting up of another industry, not for the gas meter thief, but for the parking slot machine thief? I should imagine that in London it will be necessary to have somewhere about 30,000 of these meters spread all over London and the suburbs. What a harvest for the thief!
  These are some of the questions in my mind. I think we should be well advised (I am speaking only for noble Lords who agree with me) to agree to street parking. I think we should be well advised to charge for parking. After all, the one person we want to get off the streets is the person who leaves his car there all day. If the money is going to influence such motorists off the streets, I do not mind how much the charge is, but I think we should have a little care for those who want to wait at a shop or park for two hours or so. I do not want to see the streets of our cities and towns filled with these hideous machines. My mind goes to York Minster. I think the largest parking place in York is round the
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  Minster. Are we going to have these hideous things every seven feet round York Minster? We cannot turn York into an American city. As the noble Lord said, too, in some places parking meters are not proving a success; and the Bill omits the one ingredient that makes the parking, meter a success in America—on the spot fining. Without that, the parking meter system was a failure in America. Are we going to have the motorist pay a fine to the policeman or the park attendant, instead of going to the police court? I am afraid that that would upset all the canons of British justice.
  Perhaps the noble Earl will answer some of these questions. I have put up a lot of Aunt Sallies for him to knock down, but that is my feeling. I hope he will agree to this. It will shorten our discussion a great deal. We shall have to have street parking, but it must not be upon the main arteries of traffic. We shall have to have charging, but it must be uniform throughout the country, and it must be kept under Parliamentary control, because we are dealing with a very serious problem. Can the noble Earl find some alternative to parking meters; and, if he cannot, will he try the experiment to prove the fallacy of them (as I am sure it will be proved to be) in some place other than the West End of London or the City of London, because their use here will not prove anything at all, and will only result in the collection of a lot of money? I should like to see him reverse the procedure in this Bill, in so far as off-street parking goes, so that off-street parking places must first be found by local authorities, as a precursor to charging for street parking. That will enable them to repay the cost on the hire purchase system out of the money they get for parking.
  3.8 p.m.
  EARL HOWE: We have heard much from the noble Lords, Lord Lucas of Chilworth and Lord Teynham, with reference to parking meters. We also have the Report of the Working Party on Car Parking in the Inner Area of London. Practically all the important bodies operating in the City of London were represented on that Working Party, including the Home Office, the Metropolitan Police, the Standing Joint Committee of Motoring Organisations, the City of London Police, the Ministry of Transport, the Road Haulage

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  Organisation, the London County Council and the Ministry or Works. That Committee was set up in 1933. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, referred to their Report, and perhaps your Lordships will forgive me if I mention it again. The Report concludes:
  "Our plan consists of three interdependent elements—
  (a) the construction of garages below and above ground"—
  it is fifteen years since a garage was constructed in the central part of London and there are no plans that I know of for the construction of another garage at the present moment—
  "(b) the introduction of parking meters, and
  (c) a new and balanced system of waiting regulations."
  I will not weary your Lordships by reading the whole of this part of the Report, but in paragraph (f) on page 3, there is this further conclusion:
  "We emphasise that our plan consists of several interdependent proposals which must be treated as a whole and that it would be fundamentally unsound merely to approve one or two of them."
  The proposal before us to-day is one of them. How comes it that the Government have brought it before us to-day when representatives of the Home Office, the Ministry of Works and the Ministry of Transport all say that this was an interdependent plan which stands or falls as a whole? I should like an answer to that question, because I wish to know why these representatives changed their minds.
  I do not know—and there is no clue in the Bill—what sort of experiment it is desired to carry out in relation to parking meters. I submit to your Lordships that longitudinal parking—that is to say, parking up and down the street parallel with the pavement—is a completely impractical proposition and will do nothing to benefit the parking position in London or in any other city where it is adopted; in fact, as has already been said by other noble Lords, it may well make it worse. This experiment has been carried out in America, where I believe they allowed a length of 15 ft.—I speak subject to correction on that point. However, since they drew up the regulations, the length of motor cars in the United States has been growing. If regulations are made in this country, the length of motors will
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  probably grow here, too, and a longer space will have to be allowed between the meters for the cars to stand opposite their meters. These meters will have to be erected along the pavement, and then they will have to be dug up and re-sited, which will involve considerable expense. That is only one of the drawbacks.
  The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said just now that we were going to start up a new industry of slot machines. I thought that perhaps he was going to say something quite different. This system has given rise to a new industry in America, where in June 180 of these parking meters were broken into and emptied, and in July the figure was 305—and that was in the city of New York alone. I thought that that was what the noble Lord was going to refer to, but it turned out to be something else. It seems to me that parking meters are arranged so that the car can be parked at right angles to, or diagonally to, the pavement, then there will not be the absurd difficulty of providing for the largest make of car and perhaps for a motor cycle.
  As to the inspection of these meters, I wonder whether your Lordships have studied this Report. Appendix J of the Report of the Working Party gives some most interesting figures about the annual cost of a parking meter. Loan charges on capital cost of 659 meters at £30, on an annuity basis over ten years at 3¾ per cent., comes to £2,408, and with 5 per cent. added for spare meters, amounting to £120, the total is £2,528. Mechanical supervision (possibly requiring one indoor and one outdoor mechanic, with allowance for equipment) comes to £1,000; one collector £400; marking of bays £165; painting of meters £165; establishment or agency charge of local authority, say 10 per cent., £426. That makes the total annual cost £4,684. Then we come to the revenue from 659 meters, at 63 per cent. efficiency—that is a curious phase. The revenue to be expected from 659 meters is £48,000. The motoring world is already paying £400 million a year in taxation, and yet you are going to try and collect on that scale from them. The excess of income over expenditure envisaged is £43,316, which is equivalent to a profit of £66 per meter. Is that the reason why the Government went back on the Report of the Working Party, in

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  order to be able to set up these meters and collect £66 per meter from the registered motorist? Is this a solution of the parking problem? I can hardly believe it.
  I should like to put to your Lordships a completely different proposition, merely to be shot down—everybody will shoot it down and everybody will go for me, but I do not care a bit. If you want to solve the parking problem in London, just consider of what it consists. There are estimated to be 77,600 cars that rush up to London in the morning and go away again in the evening—that is the all-day parking population. I do not believe that the system of having a parking meter here and another there will deal with that problem. That is the problem at present, but with new motor cars coming on the road at the rate of 400,000 a year, and possibly at an even higher rate, the problem will not decrease, but will get worse. I believe that some sort of proposition like the one I am going to put to your Lordships (as I say, I am sure it will be most unpopular) will have to be undertaken, because I can think of no other way out.
  I suggest that London and other big cities will have to be zoned and a system of various colours adopted. There will, for the sake of argument, be a red zone in the middle. In order to get into a zoned city, a motorist will have to get a police pass from the police in that city; and in order to get into the red zone he will have to prove that he has a parking place, a garage, or somewhere where he can put his car off the highway. He will then be given a coloured card which he will put on his windscreen and he will then be allowed in. An outer area will, let us say, be a blue zone. If the motorist cannot show that he has a parking place, garage, or somewhere to go in the central area, he will be given a blue pass to put on his windscreen, which will entitle him to park his car in a zone further afield from the central area. In order to cater for the people who must come up for the day, there will be another colour, say green, and those motorists will be given a green pass, which will again be obtained from the police and will entitle them to come up to the big city for the day and go away again. It will signify that they are not necessarily going to stop there all day; and, of course, there will be a limitation
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  on the number of times that the green pass can be used. I feel that something of that sort will have to be done.
  You cannot fill up the whole of the central area of any big city, yet alone London. We are very close to stagnation point, as we all know, and it seems to me that that is the sort of practical way in which the problem should be tackled—perhaps not exactly that scheme, but something of that sort. The Working Party do not recommend parking meters, because their recommendations are interdependent, and the other things, such as underground garages, are not there. Unless the underground garages are required for shelters in the event of an atomic war, or something of that sort, then I cannot believe they will be much good. There will be considerable congestion near the entrances; the construction will, surely, be most expensive; and I personally do not think much of them. I would much rather have the above-ground garage. There is a fine one at Olympia, where one drives up to the top of the building, and one does also in America. Moreover, Such garages are probably less expensive to erect. We have allowed fifteen years to go by without making an effort to construct a garage on modern lines in the central area of London. That is incredible when we have known all the time that this problem has been growing. I have probably said too much already, and I am certain that I shall be hotly attacked for the suggestion I have made, but I only wish I could think of a better one. I am afraid that I must support what has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Teynham and Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in their criticism of parking meters, for which I have no sort of use and which I am certain the motoring community will dislike intensely.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before the noble Earl sits down, could he help noble Lords to appraise his suggestion? Does he propose that the motorist shall pay for the red, blue and green permits to enter the zones?
  EARL HOWE: No, I make no proposal of that sort at all. My idea is that one merely goes to the police and proves the necessity for going into a particular zone. I do not suppose one should be charged anything for that.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: How long does the noble Earl anticipate it would be before the Government found this a wonderful way to raise new and fresh revenue?
  EARL HOWE: I think the noble Lord's guess would be better than mine.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This clause is the Government's main contribution towards the solution of the traffic problem in the London area.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: A statutory contribution.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I accept the noble Earl's correction. When the noble Earl replies, I hope he will be able to answer the question posed by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, at the beginning of his remarks, when he wanted to know whether this is regarded by the Government as an alternative solution to the recommendations in the Report of the Working Party on Car Parking in Inner London, or whether the Government still believe that the recommendations in this Report are the broad lines of a solution and ought to be carried out. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, pointed out that the recommendations of the Working Party were interdependent. It seems to me that either the Government accept the interdependence of these recommendations or the Report is worthless, in which case we have nothing to look to but the provisions of this clause of the Bill. I must confess, with other noble Lords who have spoken, that I regard this clause as futile if, together with administrative action of different kinds, it is intended to provide a solution to the traffic problem in London.
  The three main proposals of the Working Party were, first, more restrictions on traffic in the London area—these have been done by administrative action—secondly, a power for local authorities to make charges for parking in the streets, as is proposed in this clause, and, thirdly, the construction of garages, whether above ground or underground, which would drain cars standing in the streets. It is that third feature in the recommendations of the Working Party which has been completely left out. We have heard nothing about it, and if the Government still attach importance to that recommendation we should hear what
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  encouragement they mean to give to the construction of these garages. After all, as, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, pointed out, the essential problem is the car parking "hog," as the Americans call him, the person who leaves his car in the street all day long. A large proportion of these cars belong to people who are working in shops and offices and leave their cars in the streets all day. Those people will not be deterred by a small charge made by the local authority for parking. They are going to leave their cars in the street and, therefore, the garage idea is the only one that is likely to cater for people of that kind. I believe we ought to know whether the Government are going to give any encouragement to local authorities by way of grant—because, of course, such garages would not be an economic proposition—to go ahead with the building of garages (or to private enterprise if they think that private enterprise could do the job), or whether they think that this clause, together with administrative action, will solve the traffic problem in the London area.
  3.25 p.m.
  LORD GIFFORD: I was walking down Whitehall a short time ago when a man stopped me and, in a very Australian voice, said, "Can you direct me to the shopping centre?" Your Lordships may wonder what that remark has to do with this Amendment, but I think it has a lot to do with it. The reason is that, in most cities built in the last fifty or a hundred years, whether in America, Australia, Canada or anywhere else, a city or town is built round a main street. It is a very wide street, and the bulk of the important shops are located up and down it. In that very wide street there is room to park a large number of cars at angle parking without obstructing the traffic, and it is possible to let every shopper have a fair share of the parking places on each side of that main street. There, possibly, the parking meter has some value. But, with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, I do not believe that the system would work in this country where we have no shopping centres.
  The question my Australian friend asked was an impossible one to answer, because there are no shopping centres. The shops and places of business are dotted about in narrow streets over a

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  large area. Therefore, it seems to me that in the old cities of this country the parking meter is a hopeless proposition. It has some value in the modern American or Colonial city with the wide main street, where people can do their shopping in twenty minutes or half an hour and then go out. They are prevented from "hogging" so that the next shopper can go in. I personally feel that, with possibly few exceptions, the parking meter is not the answer in this country, and it is much less the answer than in other countries where it has been tried and, in some cases, failed. I am also afraid that I cannot support the suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. After all, we had coloured windscreen badges at the time of the Coronation to enable us to go into certain areas; and what difficulty there was in allocating those to the right people! I do not think a system of badges could be run fairly, because it would put far too great a burden on the police and the local authorities. Therefore, speaking for myself, in view of the conformation and design of the city of London and most of our other cities in this country, I do not feel that the answer is in the parking meter.
  LORD REA: The discussion on this particular Amendment has ranged over rather a wide field, but I do not think I am out of order in asking the Government to give attention to one point not fully touched upon, and that is parking where parking is legitimate—in front of one's own house or places of call. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, spoke about the main usage of the road being for the free flow of traffic, as did the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. The noble Lord said last week that Governments may come and Governments may go but he and the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, apparently, go on for ever. Some of us, however, want to stop occasionally. There are instances of this, of which no doubt your Lordships have experience yourselves. I was trying the other day to pick up an invalid from a nursing home and take her to my own house. I had to wait twenty-five seconds in a narrow street with vehicles parked on both sides. Welbeck Street was filled with hooting vehicles, and on getting back to my own house I was unable to deliver the invalid until the person who had parked outside
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  my own front door could be found. This is merely an individual case; but I hope the Government will remember that these parking meters must be placed so that the individual house owner, shop owner or business owner has liberty of access to his own entrance and exit.
  LORD STRABOLGI: May I say a word about underground parking? It is one of the suggestions of the Working Party that underground parks should be built under some of the London squares. Anybody who cares at all for our Georgian architecture in London must view this suggestion with great concern. These London squares are absolutely unique, and foreigners are always saying to me how very impressed they are with their beauty. If garages are built underneath them it will mean that all the fine old trees will have to come down, and instead of having a little oasis of greenery we shall have merely an arid waste. Furthermore, I do not think that these underground garages will really do much good, because they will encourage the car owner to bring his car into London if he thinks he will get easy parking space. In fact, they will have the effect of bringing more and more cars into the city, as I think was pointed out in The Times in their interesting series of articles on this problem last year.
  The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has pointed out that there are 77,000 car "commuters" (if I may use such a term) coming into the city every day, and furthermore that there are going to be 400,000 new cars every year. So that, whatever facilities are given, in a few years' time there will be equally great problems. I have listened with great interest to the suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, but, if I may say so with great respect, I think it is a little too complicated to work properly. Somehow, I cannot see that it would really work fairly, because motorists who already have parking space would in some way have precedence over others. I should like to make another suggestion which I fear will be even more unpopular, but it is one which I think is the only realistic solution to this problem. We are rapidly approaching the state when, as the standard of living increases, almost every other person in the country will have a car. I think that is an excellent thing. But we must also realise that a car is a luxury which none of us can afford to use

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  the whole time. Therefore, I believe the use of cars will have to be limited. There are perhaps ways of stopping them from coming into London, but it will then be necessary to construct enormous parks in the suburbs and almost the same problem will arise, especially as business is moving further and further west, so that places like Kensington and Hammersmith are now quite important business areas. The neatest way of approaching this problem, I am afraid, is to have some form of petrol rationing—although I hasten to add that I do not speak for my noble friends on these Benches.
  3.33 p.m.
  LORD HAMPTON: Some time ago we had a debate, as your Lordships will remember, on the Working Party Report. During that debate I ventured to suggest one way in which the room available for parking in many of our squares could be improved. That was by putting up a notice to say that it was obligatory to park cars diagonally. There are, of course, many squares where that cannot be done because there is no room for the circulation of traffic. On the other hand, there are a great many where it could be done to great and obvious advantage. For one thing, if you park alongside a kerb, it is quite possible that you may be entirely prevented from moving your car when you want to do so by somebody who is in front of you. Nothing has been done about that. I feel that it will help in a small way if diagonal parking is made obligatory where it is possible. In some squares we know it is obligatory. The parking is well looked after by an attendant who sees that people back into the right places, and so on. It is a small suggestion.
  With regard to the amenities of these squares if the Government thought fit to go in for the construction of underground parks, I do not know whether the noble Lord who has just spoken has studied the Report, but it contained two interesting drawings showing the architect's original plan for two or three of these squares which included no trees at all: he wanted to have an open space made up in the form of a garden, so that one could see the architecture—no doubt slightly more attractive in those days than now—round the square. There were no trees in the plans for the squares in those days, except perhaps very small ones. Many of the trees now there are ancient and, in course of
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  time, will have to be severely lopped or even taken down. They cannot go on for ever. Some replanning of the trees will have to take place. Though I am not entirely in favour of them, I think it would be possible to construct underground car parks without upsetting the amenities of the squares to a very great extent. However, that is by the way. I do not suppose we shall come to them for some time.
  3.36 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: There is one point upon which we are agreed, and that is the extreme irritation that is caused by the parking facilities in central London. I want to emphasise that what we are putting forward here is nothing more than to ask your Lordships' authority to try this experiment. If we can do it, we are quite prepared to hedge it round in any way that your Lordships may think desirable. I say quite frankly to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that we do not think that this is a solution, but we think that it may help; that is all. In any case, if any Government in the future did build underground parks, or anything of that character, this would be necessary as a previous step.
  I should like to deal with one question which is essentially linked with off-street parking facilities of some character. I am prepared to go further than we have gone at present, and to put into the Bill a provision enjoining the Minister, before he confirms an order submitted by a local authority, to have regard to the facilities for parking vehicles off the highway which already exist or are likely to be provided in the future in the area covered by the scheme: in particular, the improved facilities which may be expected to flow from the exercise by the local authority of their powers under Clause 14. You can look at this question as the egg and the chicken, if you like: whether you get the money first or the car park first does not matter. The question is, does it lead to better off-street parking in the end? That is what you need to have in mind.
  LORD TEYNHAM: Do I understand that that is an Amendment that Her Majesty's Government propose to put down on Report stage?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am prepared to put down words of that character if it meets with the approval of the Committee—not those precise

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  words, but those are the usual lines on which it could be done. There are two points around which this debate seems to have centred: first, what are our objectives, and, secondly, how we mean to control them. It links up very much with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Burden, earlier. I think we are all agreed that we have already tried authorised parking, we have tried unilateral parking, we have tried one-way streets, we have tried roundabouts, and we are still not by any means satisfied with the situation. The word "stagnation" was used by one noble Lord. If I may say this to the noble Earl, Lord Howe—and he speaks with very great authority; no one has greater authority in this House on the question of motoring—we do not like his scheme. We consider it would take an enormous body of police to enforce it, if there were no other objection, and there would be a great measure of inconvenience to many people concerned. But if we cannot go further in this direction, something of that character may in the future become necessary. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, put forward a certain number of ideas, but they amount substantially to the expenditure of large sums of Government money. I know there are many things that we have to consider in that respect, but they do not fall into this Bill. I think the noble Lord agrees that some step of this character involving the use, or experiment with the use, of parking meters or the charging for parking will be necessary.
  EARL HOWE: I hesitate to interrupt and I hope the noble Earl will forgive me, but from the Report of the Working Party I gave a figure of £66 per meter. If meters are installed, who is going to get the £66? Will it go into the construction of underground garages? That is what the Working Party said should happen.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The Bill as drafted makes it quite clear, but I should be glad to make it even clearer. This money goes to the local authority for the use of off-street parking. Whether they use it for building off-street parks, and whether they will be above ground or below ground, will be a matter within the discretion of the local authority. If they want to do so, they may even assist garages to proceed by private enterprise.
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  That, I think, is all contained in Clause 14. As I said, we are here seeking limited authority to conduct this experiment.
  The noble Lord, Lord Burden, raised a question as to why we did not make the scheme wider. Before doing that, however, we want to have some assurance that it is likely to work. I should like to point out the objective that we have in mind. I submit to noble Lords, in the first place, that it is fairer to motorists that four cars should park in one place for two hours each, rather than that one car should stay there for eight hours. I think everyone would agree with that proposition. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, gave a more exaggerated figure: he said that sixteen cars could use a place which was used by one parking "hog." Whilst that may well be possible in some circumstances, I think parking meters can be considered fairer to the motorist. The system permits of a freer circulation: more people are able to use a given place.
  I should like to take the case of New Zealand as one illustration. We in this country have a somewhat similar speed of living. Not long ago I was speaking to a distinguished representative of New Zealand, and he said that motorists there liked these parking meters, because they could get into the towns, park, do their shopping and get out again. But he said that they had one complaint there—namely, that they do not get the money. The point I am making is that here all the money will be expended for the benefit of motorists. That is of cardinal importance. As I say, I am quite prepared, if necessary, to make the matter clearer on the Report stage.
  LORD GIFFORD: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl. That is exactly what I said. But in New Zealand nearly all the towns have a very wide main street, where angle parking can take place outside the shops. That would not be possible in this city.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I do not say that the circumstances are exactly the same, but the principle would be the same, whether there is angle parking and whether or not the streets are wide. Here, the difficulty is that a motorist who wants to put his car in a place for a short time, and do his shopping, is unable to get anywhere near the shops he wishes to visit. Take, for example, one of the big

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  squares—either St. James's Square or Berkeley Square. The rule there is that a car may be left for two hours, though it is fairly common knowledge that that rule is not always observed. I think it is fair to say, without casting any reflection upon the police, that it is almost impossible to enforce the law. No-one can walk round the square and take the time at which every car arrives and the time at which it leaves: I think your Lordships will agree that that is almost a physical impossibility. It may be labour-saving, and more effective, to have an automatic limitation showing when the period of two hours has expired. That is an example. Fat from putting extra work on the police, it would in some measure relieve the police of their duties of supervision, so that they are free to concentrate on other things.
  I have already mentioned the importance of my third point, the provision of off-street parking. I think it is fair to say that we shall never drive cars off the road and into these parking places unless there is some incentive for them to go there. I am given to understand that at the present time there is a large car park at Portman House which is practically never full. There is no incentive for a motorist to go there because he can park freely elsewhere.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I apologise for again interrupting, but I would emphasise that the reason why a number of garages remain empty is that owners object to their cars being bundled about in garages, having their mudguards dented, and so on, because there is no proper system. If there could be some guarantee that the cars will not be manhandled, this would induce people to take their cars off the highway and put them into garages. That is one of the main reasons why in London to-day as much as 33 per cent. of garage space is unused.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has raised a point that I am not familiar with, but it is a somewhat technical one. It does not apply to a big open space like Portman House, where there is no one to manhandle the cars and which is open to entry by a person with his car. I must emphasise that we are not confining, this scheme too much to the centre of London; there may be other areas in the metropolitan area where it could be ap-
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  plied much more satisfactorily and which would supply a much better illustration.
  The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, raised a question of charges. My right honourable friend accepts broadly the proposals in the Report of the Working Party. The general basis of charges is 6d. for an hour, and 1s. for two hours. I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that uniformity throughout the country is necessary. I do not want to give an assurance that that will always be the rate—there may be some places where a quicker turn round is in the public interest. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, is always very good at looking after the financial interests of motorists, and I am sure he is right in what he says. But is it not worth 6d. occasionally if one can get a freer circulation—if your car can come in more easily and quickly; if you can stop your car, park it, and get out and do what you want to do? Is not that worth sixpence? I put that to the noble Earl as a not unreasonable proposition.
  EARL HOWE: I could understand that suggestion of the noble Earl a little better if he would say whether he had in mind longitudinal, right-angular or diagonal parking.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am not clear what difference that makes to the charges.
  EARL HOWE: The noble Earl asked whether it would not be worth sixpence for a motorist to get freer circulation. In the course of my remarks I put to my noble friend the point that merely to have parking meters on a longitudinal system would restrict, instead of increase the available parking space.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The case the noble Earl has in mind is unilateral parking—
  EARL HOWE: Not at all.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Perhaps I have not entirely understood the point the noble Earl made, but in any case it is for the local authorities, in consultation with the police, to examine this point and to decide which is the best way of doing this.
  EARL JOWITT: May I ask a question? The noble Earl has been very good in regard to all these interruptions. I want

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  to understand these charges. Suppose you have a commuter who occupies a place all day long. He is charged Is. for two hours. Can he have another two hours? What happens if he stays all day?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am glad to have been interrupted by the noble and learned Earl. I was passing away from that matter, I am afraid—I was pulled off my course. I wanted to deal with the excess charge. In the United States it is the normal practice for the police to fine on the spot. We have never accepted that here, and we do not propose to accept it now. What is the alternative? To haul a man off to the court after two hours is rather severe treatment, and what we suggest, instead, is an excess charge; that is to say, after two hours the charge is stepped up rather steeply.
  EARL JOWITT: How?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The amount is a charge, not a fine; but it would be sharply increased to the order of, perhaps, 5s. for two or three hours, so that the cost would compare very unfavourably with that of going to a garage. The noble Earl asks how the charge will be imposed. There is provision in the Bill that a motorist may not stay after a period of two hours but must find some other place. He cannot just stay there or drive round and then return. Without going into detail I can say that the motorist will be confined to two hours, and if he finds it necessary to go beyond that time, then the charge will be a fairly substantial one, rather in excess of the normal garage charge.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: How is the motorist to pay this charge? He cannot put it into the meter.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This again is a matter for the organisation of local authorities. The normal procedure we have in mind is that where the attendant finds a car with its parking time expired he will put a notice on the car stating the excess charge that has become due and will enter it in his notebook. Arrangements would have to be made locally for the money to be paid either into a box or to the attendant, or the payment could be sent on. It is integral to this scheme that parking meters should not be put up in isolated places, individually, but as part of a scheme to cover a whole area.
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  I will take a point which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has rightly emphasised, the main thoroughfare or "No waiting" area. It is important that in these vicinities parking restrictions should be fairly strict so that there is not a gap between a "No waiting" area and the beginning of an area of parking restrictions, otherwise the result will be to block the entrances to main thoroughfares. Those parking restrictions should go back to the off-street parking facilities—assuming these exist at a reasonable distance from the main street—so that no one can remain between that area and the main thoroughfare. When you get back to residential areas the parking arrangements tail off until indiscriminate parking is not prevented. Obviously that outline differs greatly in various circumstances and that simple picture would not always be possible of execution.
  May I say a word or two about the operation which is very important? I emphasise that this is an experiment, and we want to ensure that it is carefully observed. The noble Lord, Lord Burden, unlike the noble Lords, Lord Derwent, Lord Howe and Lord Somers, wants a great deal of power for the local authority, and immediate action; the other noble Lords want the whole matter to be completely regulated by Parliament, from beginning to end. Both those requirements go too far. I believe the Bill is much more practicable as a common-sense approach. I do not for one moment suggest that we might not put control more on the one side or the other. I am quite willing to do so if noble Lords wish it. The proposals start with the local authority making proposals to the Minister. It is not for the Minister to select sites; he may be able to encourage local authorities, but it is for them, after consultation with the police, to put forward proposals. Thereafter the proposals are published, with full opportunity for public objection; and then the Minister makes the decision.
  We have taken this course because it seems desirable that the first proposals should be made in detail by the people having knowledge and responsibility—that is to say, the police and the local authority. Then the proposals are made public, with every individual having an opportunity to defend his right. Finally, there is the decision of the Minister on

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  the broader issues involved. I will mention these, for it is important that they should be kept in mind. First, the scheme must be one directed towards the provision of off-street parking, so it is directly linked with that before it is approved. It must be fair to motorists all over the country, and for that reason the question of uniformity is important. Further, it should ensure that free circulation of traffic is in no way impeded. That is of great importance, economically, to the country in general.
  The point I am anxious to learn from noble Lords is how we can keep a right balance between the local authority, the Minister and the private individual. I think I can meet the noble Lord, Lord Burden, to some extent, because I agree that local authorities may need to have certain wider authority within the terms of the Bill, though I believe the Minister must retain a good deal of control here. Noble Lords have emphasised that the Working Party made three recommendations. I believe it is important to remember that these proposals are not confined to the area of inner London, with which the Working Party were concerned; it is also important not to emphasise that as the only area where this particular scheme might be of value. The metropolitan scheme goes much beyond that. I believe that in 100 years' time we shall still have a parking space problem in inner London. We are not seeking a solution, we are seeking only a more workable arrangement.
  There are three different types of order that can be made, and it is upon this matter that I want the opinion of your Lordships. What sort of control do noble Lords want exercised under these orders? First there is the extension beyond the metropolitan area. At present, that is subject to the Negative Resolution procedure in both Houses. We do not want to extend the scheme, however, until we have had some experience and are satisfied that it is worth while—though that is not intended as any reflection upon other authorities. Secondly, there is the designation order which will designate a place and the general way in which this particular organisation will work. We do not know whether the noble Lord would like that to be under the control of Parliament. These are detailed matters, surely, not particularly suitable for Parliament, but rather matters which are
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  the concern of a local authority. If the noble Lord wants that, perhaps he will let me know. Thirdly, there are general things which will apply all over the country, type of parking meter, testing of meter, and so, on; which, again, have to be referred to Parliament. Those are the three types of orders, and I should welcome any suggestions from noble Lords if it is felt that we have not got these things entirely in the right place. To the noble Lord, Lord Rea, I would say that he has no other right on the ground outside his house than a right of access. He has no more right to park his car there than has any other noble Lord. I would repeat that Her Majesty's Government are asking for an experiment. I have no doubt that sixty years ago some noble Lord sat where the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, is now sitting and expressed his view about the motor-car in words of much greater anxiety than those of the noble Lord now. Omnia ignota per terrible, so we regard anything new as being rather dangerous. But I believe this is a matter in which we must experiment, and that we should be wrong not to do so.
  3.59 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: I came here to listen to this debate, thinking that we ought to agree that Her Majesty's Government should have the right to try an experiment, always provided it was tried, at the beginning, in a very small way, in order that they might learn from experience and go on from there. I still think so, although I must confess that I have been rather shaken by what I have heard in this debate. I agree with what the noble Earl says; of course he cannot solve the parking problem. No one can, or will, within the next fifty years—if ever. But he must look to see whether this is going to make things better and lead to the more free circulation of traffic. It is just there that I become rather doubtful. Is it going to lead to freer circulation of traffic or will it point the other way? So far as I am concerned, I am prepared to consent to the making of this experiment by the Government, but certain considerations occur to me.
  I find myself largely in sympathy with Lord Rea. I have a flat in a small residential neighbourhood, and there is a street outside. We, certainly, and most of the other residents, use the street for

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  parking cars, and we all rather resent it if a person whom we call "a foreigner" comes in—that is to say, someone who is not one of us. It is rather hard luck: someone who lives down in the country comes up to London and commutes, and leaves his car there all day long. It is the fact, as the noble Earl has just said in answer to Lord Rea, that we have no more right, because we live there, to park our cars in the street than has anyone else. But, as I say, it seems very hard luck, and I should have thought that this matter might be looked into from that point of view.
  I very much hope that the roads which are to be used in this experiment are not going to be trunk roads or main roads; I hope that Lord Lucas of Chilworth's Amendment will be accepted; I think that should be an absolute condition of the experiment. But this much, at least, is plain. If you are going to have some streets where parking will be allowed and people charged (and I am glad to see a heavy excess price is to be charged for anyone overstaying his welcome) I am afraid that this result will follow. Parkers will fight rather shy of these streets—certainly the people I have called "commuters" will. They will go into other streets to leave their cars, and the state of those other streets will be worse than ever. Take the neighbourhood where I live, or any residential street. You will, no doubt, find there parked cars belonging to all sorts of people including those whom we call "foreigners." They will avoid those places where they have to pay, and will come to our streets. I should like the noble Earl at the next stage of the Bill to consider whether that is not a serious thing, and whether, so far from improving circulation of traffic it will not make it still worse. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Howe; I do not want a lot of extra money to be raised from the unfortunate motorists. I think the object of the Bill in this connection ought to be not to raise money but to try to make things better from the point of view of the circulation of traffic. And that, I am sure, is the Government's intention. The raising of money is completely incidental; the real aim is to prevent obstruction. That, I am sure, is the Government's point of view. As I have said, I am doubtful about this proposal. I believe that as a
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  result of it circulation may become more difficult instead of less. I hope the noble Earl will bear that possibility in mind.
  We have had a considerable discussion on this Amendment of Lord Burden—I apologise for his absence at the moment; he has been called away. It occurs to me that in the Bill there is a rather odd bit of drafting which might be looked at again. Clause 10 (1) starts off by proclaiming that it applies to the Metropolitan Police District. From Clause 10 (4), however, one learns that it applies not only to the Metropolitan Police District but to any other area to which the Minister may extend it by order. It is a most peculiar piece of drafting and I suggest that it should be put right. The order can be annulled by Negative Resolution—that is the procedure indicated in the Bill. I suggest that the matter should be looked at.
  The noble Lord, Lord Burden, did not want to press the Amendment to a Division, and the noble Earl will, I am sure, say that he will look at this matter. We certainly want to see an Amendment such as that of Lord Lucas of Chilworth, which is next but one on the Marshalled List, accepted. Subject to that, on this occasion we shall agree to allowing the Government the right to carry out this experiment. I hope it will be a very small experiment. I think it is their intention to have only a small one; and I trust that we shall learn something of value from it. I hope that the noble Earl at the next stage of the Bill will be able to deal with some of the points I have mentioned and to indicate plainly that the scheme which he has described is going to make the situation better and not worse. I am frightened that the situation may become worse as a result of the use of parking meters.
  4.6 p.m.
  LORD WOLVERTON: I have not spoken earlier on this Amendment because I wanted to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, had to say, and what the Minister would say in reply. I am glad that the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, has said he is prepared to consider hedging this clause round with some restrictions. While I agree that we should have the experiment, as the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, has said, Parliament is here asked to give the

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  Minister extremely wide powers. First, the Government ask for the metropolitan area, and then the Minister is to be able to extend the experiment throughout the whole country, subject only to the control of Parliament by the Negative Resolution procedure. Some of us on this side of the Chamber feel that it may be necessary to extend this experiment beyond London to one or two big provincial cities. Until Parliament know more about it, I do not think that carte blanche should be given in a matter of this kind. I think that Parliament, as well as the Minister, wants to know more about it. As I say, the Minister, in my view, is asking for very wide powers, and I should like to see the experiment extended to other areas—to at least two other areas—because the great provincial cities of this country have their problems just as London has; but until we know more about the problem we ought not to go further in this matter.
  I am not happy, however, because I do not feel sure that we have yet hit upon the right solution to this problem. I agree heartily with Lord Howe and Lord Teynham, that this scheme ought to be linked up with the provision of more parking spaces. I had the honour of serving the other day on a Committee considering a Bill promoted by Birmingham Corporation. They were seeking very large Parliamentary powers to rebuild a hilltop site at Birmingham. Their buildings have got to go down two floors. There is going to be a ring right round the buildings, and traffic will have to approach them by certain tunnels, using the basement and the second basement down as parking places. That, I think, is a system which we have copied from America. I think it is a very fine scheme, because it will keep people from parking on the roads. Without this scheme, the buildings would have to be erected in such a position that they would be well back off the roads.
  As I say, however, we need to know more about this problem. I should like to see it put to local authorities that, if they introduce these parking meters, they must provide some alternative parking places, either overhead or underground. I have heard that there are proposals for parking under some of the London squares. It is thought possible to preserve trees by putting, things like concrete gaiters around them below ground level.
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  If that is so, it would be a good thing to adopt that system, because it will be a thousand pities if, in some of these lovely squares of ours, we have to cut down trees. That is an engineering problem that will have to be studied, but I understand that some engineers believe they can preserve some of the trees. The noble Earl in charge of the Bill has said that he will consider hedging this experiment round with some restrictions, and I am very glad to hear it. I am not against the experiment, but I think it should be extended to other places besides London.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I say how grateful I feel—and, in-deed how grateful we all ought to be—to the noble Earl for the method and manner adopted by him in replying to this discussion. He has been most helpful, and what he has said has, I think, cleared away from my mind 75 per cent. of my fears and objections. He has made (I do not think I am misinterpreting him in saying this) two valuable statements. First of all, he has said that no through highway that carries the traffic through any town or city can be designated as a parking place. That is very valuable.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I must intervene so that there shall not be any misunderstanding. If I gave that impression I must modify it because there are some places where main roads go through market squares, and I do not include those.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Shall I say "carriage way," which is perhaps a better word? That assurance is valuable. The next thing is: would the noble Lord tighten up the terms of the clause that he contemplates putting down about off-street parking? If he will treat that (whether it is the hen or the egg, I do not mind) as the thing which must come first, then again he will have made a valuable contribution. What did he say? He said that parking near the through highway must be very strict; and that the strictness must be maintained up to the place where off-street parking is permitted. The whole scheme will break down, however, unless there is the off-street parking place at the end of the line. If he gives us an assurance that such a parking place will be available, it will go a long way to clear people's minds on the value of the experiment.

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  because he has put something there into which to drive the parker.
  I then come to my noble and learned Leader's point, and that is what puzzles me. Is it proposed by this Bill to take away the right which the noble Earl has just mentioned—the right of access? If an occupier of premises has a right of access to his house or flat or shop, where is the parking meter to be placed? The only places where parking meters can be erected, it seems to me, are in streets having no shops and no houses. Am I not right? If a parking meter is erected outside anyone's door, his right of access goes. I do not know where these meters are going to be placed. In the Royal Parks? Is it proposed to have parking meters in the Royal Parks as part of the experiment? I notice that the Ministry of Works have just issued an announcement that Birdcage Walk is in future to be a parking place, and also the road running by the Horse Guards Parade. Are parking meters to be placed down Birdcage Walk and the Mall?
  Then it is proposed to have some places in London with parking meters, and some places without parking meters. Are you going to charge for the places without parking meters? If you are not going to charge for parking in the Mall or Birdcage Walk, why charge for Whitehall where you can put parking meters? This matter wants a lot of thinking about. My noble Leader put his finger right on the point: the Government really have to alter the law on the right of access. If there are to be parking meters in any street in London or any provincial town or city where there are shops or houses, it means doing away with the tenants' or the owners' right of access. That is a problem which I had better leave with the noble Earl, who is a lawyer, and the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor. But I confess that I do not see where these meters are to be put.
  There is one other point in the noble Earl's explanation on which I think we shall run into trouble. We have sixpence an hour, one shilling for two hours, and very likely, five shillings or six shillings for additional time, with an envelope on the windscreen to say that the man is now ripe to incur a heavy charge. But suppose the man goes off and does not come back. What happens? If he does not put the money in the box and does not
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  get a receipt, then proceedings are taken. But suppose he does not put the money in the slot to start with. What happens then? I think that in trying to adopt an American system to this country we are falling between two stools. If somebody sees a car on an American car park, and the meter is not ticking and the dial is not going round, the policeman, the arm of the law, exacts a fine. We have only a car park attendant; he has got to look after a large number of cars. Just imagine St. James's Square with parking meters all the way round; and one car park attendant who is over at the other side. I leave my car against the meter and do not put any money in the slot. How long is taken to detect whether I have put any money in the slot and what happens to me if I have not? The car park attendant may notice it after half an hour, and he then starts charging me from then. Is there any power for the policeman to impose a fine?
  These are some of the difficulties. But again, in conclusion, let me thank the noble Earl for the concessions he makes. I think we have now reduced our disagreement to a very narrow point, although it may be a most important one—that is, is the parking meter, with all its difficulties, the right method to adopt? Is there a right of access in America? Is American law such that they can do away with the right of access? That is a very important point. I think that has got to be solved before we can determine whether the parking meter is the right instrument. Other than that, the noble Earl has satisfied noble Lords on this side of your Lordships' House, because I think he has made very valuable concessions. The most important one, if I may say so, to the noble Earl, is the statement that, before he gives authority for the streets of a city or town to be let out, the Minister must be satisfied that there is off-street parking. That is the thing that will make this scheme work. Without that, I agree with the other noble Lords, it never would have worked.
  EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Lord two small questions before he replies? Would he, at the next stage of the Bill, give us a more expanded statement on the subject of the finance of the parking meters; that is to say, embodying what he has said with regard to charges,

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  what is going to happen to the charges, who is going to supervise them, and to what purposes they can be devoted? The other question is, would he, at the next stage of the Bill, be prepared to meet an Amendment with reference to zoning?
  VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: May I ask the Minister before he replies whether I am right in thinking that right of access may be considered to be something like the width of the door and not necessarily the whole frontage of the building? If that is so, will he not fall into the difficulty of the bus conductor who advised a large lady who was trying to get into the bus to "try it sideways"? She replied, "Young man, I have got no sideways."
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I thank the noble Lords opposite for the comparatively warm welcome they have given to this proposal. The point the noble Earl raises is within the general scope of the scheme which I endeavoured to describe. I think it would cover most cases in point. He is perfectly right: it cannot be a case of paying in one place and not another; otherwise there will be unbalance. I agree that in a sense this may seem odd drafting, but the noble Lord will appreciate that there is a great deal of anxiety about the scheme. We have therefore carefully circumscribed it to the Metropolitan area; if he likes to put in another area we will consider it. But that seemed a good place to start in a limited way. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked about charges. I should be glad to look at that matter when we come to Clause 14. So far as the question of earmarking the money received in charges is concerned, it should be perfectly clear that this money cannot be diverted to any other purpose, and that is provided for in the Bill. If the noble Earl thinks otherwise, I shall be glad to consider any suggestion he has to make.
  EARL HOWE: Could the noble Earl say something about Appendix J, and whether the figures given there are likely ones?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I beg the noble Earl's pardon; I thought he was talking about the Bill, but it seems that he is referring to the Working Party's Report. I shall be glad to go into that point presently. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas
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  of Chilworth, mentioned a number of things which I think had better be taken later when the Amendments come before the Committee—questions such as the accessibility and working of parking meters. I do not think that this scheme is difficult, and it will come easy with a little practice. I do not think there is anything important I need mention. I will endeavour to meet the noble Lord, but I should be grateful if he could withdraw his Amendment.
  LORD BURDEN: I hope the noble Earl will accept my sincere apologies because I was unavoidably compelled to leave the Chamber and did not have the advantage of hearing this interesting debate or the reply of the noble Earl, which I shall read with great interest tomorrow. I like, however, to say that I am not proposing to give more authority to the local authorities; I am only complaining that the experiment should be limited to the Metropolitan area and the City of London. I do not think that the success or otherwise of this experiment can be proved by trying it out in the Metropolitan Police area. I believe that the large Provincial cities could make their contribution towards a solution of the difficulty. Secondly, I think I made it clear that authority would still remain with the Minister and with Parliament to agree; that is covered by another subsection in the clause. I shall be interested to read what the noble Earl has said. Again asking him to accept my apologies, I beg to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This is a formal Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 8, line 9, after ("District") insert ("or the City of London").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  4.23 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I ask the noble Earl how he proposes to proceed? In view of what he has said about the acceptance of the principle, does he accept the next Amendment or would he prefer to draft something more acceptable? If the noble Earl will tell me, I shall know how to proceed, but, in the meantime, I beg to move the Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 8, line 12, at end insert ("but no such order shall be made which would designate as a parking place any part of the carriage way of a trunk or class I road.").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: What I had in mind was the necessity to make it clear that the importance of maintaining through traffic must be before the Minister's mind when he is making a scheme. I think that that can be adequately written into the Bill without the rigidity which this Amendment imports into it. I do not know whether the noble Lord really has in mind that as soon as this Bill is passed into law all the waiting notices in Piccadilly will be pulled down and replaced with parking meters. This is going to be a scheme proposed by the police and the local authority and supported by the Minister of Transport. I should have thought that all of them would be extremely interested in maintaining the circulation of traffic.
  I want to put to the noble Lord the difficulties we find here. First, the Amendment suggests by implication that second-class and third-class streets are suitable for parking meters. I agree with the noble Lord that in certain cases they are no more suitable than first-class streets. Bond Street is a case in point. It would be ludicrous to put parking meters in Bond Street, which is a second-class street, or to put them in St. James's Street or Jermyn Street, which are also technically second-class streets. What I think is wrong, and what clouds the issue, is that the selection of streets in which cars can be parked does not depend on whether they are first-class streets, second-class streets or unclassified; it depends on the configuration of the street. The noble Lord was talking about Oxford, and St. Giles's Street is another case in point. Where streets broaden out into market places or where there is a backwash where the main traffic does not flow, these places may be suitable for parking. If a place is suitable for parking, then parking restrictions become necessary and it is essential that those restrictions should be fairly rigidly imposed and a scheme put forward. I do not say that that must be done under this Bill. There may be different restrictions—for instance, by waiting periods; but one way of doing it is by parking meters. If that is not done, the whole scheme for an area might
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  be invalidated. Therefore, I think it would cloud the issue. The noble Lord can think of places in London which today are designated parking places and which are suitable for parking meters, and their suitability depends entirely on the configuration of the ground or the way in which streets meet.
  Another difficulty is that first-class roads are not a statutory definition. The Minister must classify roads, but he can classify them in any way he likes. I suggest to the noble Lord that if we put into the list of purposes which the Minister has to keep in mind when making a scheme that he has to ensure proper provision for through traffic, that would meet his point. I should be glad to put in words of that sort, so that if the Minister is not satisfied with a scheme, it need not be approved.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I thought the noble Lord was more helpful on the previous Amendment than he is now. I put in the words "carriage way" and not "highway" because these are two different things. What clouds this issue, if clouded it is, is the fact that we are apt to think of London. I am thinking of some of our main arteries in the Provinces. I suggest to the noble Earl—and I think I am correct—that a market square is not a carriage way. The noble Earl mentioned St. Giles's Street in Oxford. I do not think that where there is parking under the trees there, it is the carriage way—it is the verge of the highway. I was particularly careful to word my Amendment so that the carriage way will be kept clear on trunk roads and first-class roads. I do not think that implies that third-class roads shall not be kept clear. I beg the noble Earl to consider this point. Some of our trunk roads are in urban areas and they must certainly be kept clear. I am quite willing to withdraw my Amendment, to let the noble Earl have another attempt at finding suitable words, but I would ask him not to cloud the issue with London.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I agree there.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: We have through-traffic roads in many towns where there are no good by-pass roads, and we do not want the main highways to be let out for parking and closed to through traffic. I accept the noble Earl's

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  offer with great pleasure, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  4.30 p.m.
  EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to add to subsection (1):
  "Provided that no order shall be made under this subsection with respect to any highway which would have the effect of preventing such access as may be reasonably required for vehicles of any class of description to any premises situated on or adjacent to such highway."
  The noble Earl said: I think this Amendment is self-explanatory, and certainly much of the discussion that we have had this afternoon has revolved around it. I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything further. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 8, line 12, at end insert the said proviso.—(Earl Howe.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This is a difficult and delicate point and, frankly, I am not entirely happy with the way the Bill is drafted in this respect at the present time. The effect of adopting the Amendment, however, would be that if at any time anyone was able to establish that he had not reasonable access, then the whole order, not only in respect of that case but for the whole area, might be invalidated; and not only at the time at which the order is made, but, as I am given to understand, at any time in the future and by any single person in that area. That is the difficulty here. I must put it to the noble Earl that that seems to be a heavy and impossible burden to put on the local authority who are doing it. I recognise that there is here a theoretical invasion of individual right, but it is more theoretical than real, because in the sort of places where this happens there is already a continuous row of parked cars in the particular street.
  Perhaps I might start in this way. I think the noble Earl will recognise that this problem does not arise in the square. I do not want to mislead your Lordships. It may seem desirable to some local authorities to extend this sort of thing to places now used for unilateral parking. In some cases that may be necessary, and I think it is essential that there should be reasonable assurance to the people living there that their interests are well studied. As I have said, the difficulty arises only
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  in cases where the congestion of traffic is considerable. It is a commonplace that where you get intensely congested areas you inevitably get some modification of individual right. I think it is obvious that that should be the case, provided always that it is in the common interest.
  The noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, brought out a good point which is implicit in all this. There are various ways in which the individual can protect himself. First of all, under the First Schedule he can raise objections to the scheme and explain exactly what is important in that respect. Secondly, if the noble Lord will look at Clause 12 (6) he will see that any order may be suspended, either temporarily or regularly, as the case may be. That gives the man who perhaps wants to take in stores once a week at a certain time the opportunity of having the arrangements suspended while he is doing so. But I think the important thing is that it is quite possible to have gaps in the order, either in space or in time. By that I mean that, supposing parking meters were placed in a street, they need not be put tail to tail: you might have three in a row and then a gap to permit access; or it may be possible to close them for certain periods of the day and they would be open only, say, between the hours of eleven thirty to five or five-thirty, or at some time reasonably convenient.
  What I think is important here is that if there is a common advantage we should be able to make use of it, provided always that we do not do a positive injury to any individual concerned. I should like the noble Earl to consider this. In cases where any meter is to be put in front of a man's premises, or where he is the frontager, it would be necessary, not simply to publish the fact but to furnish details of the scheme to all occupiers of the premises which adjoin or abut on to the street or the area to be covered by the scheme. That means that an individual concerned cannot lose the opportunity of objecting by omitting to do so, or by not knowing that the scheme is going forward. I feel that, to some extent, meets the point which the noble Earl has in mind. I have also suggested that when the scheme is complete it should be subject to the Negative Resolution procedure, which means that in the event of anyone feeling aggrieved the matter can be raised by a Member in

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  either House. I do not know whether that entirely covers the point of the noble Earl, but I think, as drafted at the present time, the Amendment would put a burden on the local authorities which would almost make this scheme unworkable.
  EARL HOWE: In connection with this scheme, does the noble Earl mean that anybody objecting to an order made to put a parking meter outside his house has to go through the formality of having a Resolution moved in either House?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: With respect, I said that was the ultimate remedy which he would have if adequate notice was not taken of his objection and he felt that he had a real grievance. After all, that is what Parliament is for, to remedy grievances. He would also have plenty of opportunity to object while the scheme was being formulated.
  EARL HOWE: Who is going to be the one to whom he should object? Is there to be an independent person to whom he can appeal? It seems to me that we should know a little more about that. There is another point. The noble Earl mentioned the extension of this idea to streets where there is now unilateral parking. How can you pick up all parking meters and take them from one side of the street to the other? Surely, you are not going to have unilateral parking down one side of the street permanently; I am sure that everybody would object to that.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: It is quite possible to have parking meters down both sides of the street and to use them on alternate days. However, that is only a small detail of practice. The noble Earl has raised the question of the procedure to be followed. It is all laid out fairly fully in the First Schedule. The procedure there shows that these schemes have to be carefully examined by the local authority and by the police, with an allowance for objections, and in London, after reference to the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, with, possibly, a public inquiry. It is only after all that has taken place that the Minister may make a decision authorising the order. I think the noble Earl can rest assured that the preliminary examination is as thorough as it can be by competent people.
  EARL HOWE: But does it include an appeal?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The appeal is, first of all, to the Minister; and if the objector does not like that, then he can appeal to Parliament.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I ask a question that might clarify the point? The procedure is that the Minister has to post an order in the local newspaper and in some other way. Then objections are invited, and if there are sufficient objections, or the Minister feels they are serious enough, a public inquiry is held. Let me take the noble Earl through the procedure. Suppose that the Minister designates Laburnham Grove, somewhere, as a parking place, and that Laburnham Grove has fifty houses. Twenty-five of the local residents in this road notice this publication and protest. The Minister then considers it. Now supposing the Minister has a public inquiry and the twenty-five residents are exempt from having parking meters outside their houses, does that mean that those who have not objected will have parking meters outside their houses, or does the whole scheme go by the board? I know that the individual has a right to object, but what happens to those individuals who do not object—perhaps because they are away or do not see the notice?
  With regard to the procedure, I agree that it looks democratic, but it can be very costly. I am not at all certain that the cost of providing for the rights of the individual (which would cover the point I made previously about right of access) will not be so costly that it will be far cheaper in the end to buy large areas of land and have off-street parking. I want to clear up the point the noble Lord has made about the process of objection open to the person who does not object in the first place. Is he subject to different treatment from the man who does?
  4.42 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): It might help your Lordships if I said a word on the procedure, because it is important that people should know how their rights will be carried out. If I might trouble your Lordships to look at the First Schedule, I think the position is most clearly

  537
  demonstrated from that. Paragraph 1 says:
  "Before applying for an order under Section ten … a local authority shall consult with the chief officer of police."
  That, of course, implies that the matter has been discussed on the appropriate committee of the local authority. It usually happens (I think the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, will agree) that it gets round inside the district if a change of any startling or comprehensive character is to be carried out. So there is, first of all, the right to make representations to a member of the local authority itself. That would apply a fortiori to paragraph 2, which says:
  "On applying for such an order the local authority shall publish in the London Gazette and at least one newspaper circulating locally an advertisement giving all the particulars."
  So, if the news has not got round by that time, there is the second chance of them knowing under paragraph 2. Under paragraph 3, the Minister has to allow the period for objecting to the making of the order, and that paragraph operates only if the period for making objection to the order has expired. He may then refer the application, together with any objection duly made, to the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, and the Advisory Committee have to consider the application and any objections. I think I am right—I do not want to put it too high—in saying that that gives my noble friend Lord Howe the independent reference he desires, because that Committee is there to provide what may be called the consumer interests' viewpoint in the matter. On that, the Minister may either require the Advisory Committee for those purposes to cause an inquiry to be held under Section 3 of the London Traffic Act, 1924, or, if the Advisory Committee do not hold an inquiry, he may hold it. There again, one gets the further provision of an inquiry at which the frontagers may be represented.
  That brings me to the point as to whether frontagers are to get a chance of expressing their opinion before an independent body. There are really two chances. First, with the Advisory Committee, and secondly at the inquiry, apart altogether from the way they can react on their elected representatives of the local authority. Then let us come to the position of the inquiry. I do not think
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  it would generally work by means of specific inclusions. I should have thought from experience that the first point would be: Is the scheme generally desirable? Secondly, do any of the houses or business premises in the street place the individual into a category which is a special category? Then, of course, there might be—though I think it is not likely—individual circumstances affecting a particular house. That sometimes happens with regard to business and so on. In that way, the people who have not taken the trouble to make objections would still find that at the three stages, either by the local authority, the Advisory Committee, or at the inquiry, their case would be considered. I am always willing to look into any point which will make for the greater ease and comfort of the subject who may have that ease and comfort invaded by the powers of the State, but I cannot at the moment think of a better method of protecting it, and if any noble Lord can, I shall be pleased to consider it before the Report Stage.
  EARL HOWE: Having heard what the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has just said, I will not press my Amendment at the present stage of the Bill, but I should like to reserve all rights for the future. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH had down an Amendment to omit subsection (3). The noble Lord said: As this Amendment was put down only to enable the noble Earl to make the statement he has already made, I do not move this Amendment.
  EARL HOWE: I think the same applies to my next Amendment. I should like to see what happens between now and the Report stage.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS LORD MILNER OF LEEDS had given notice of an Amendment to leave out subsection (4). The noble Lord said: Having had to come up from the country, I have not had the advantage of hearing the debate on the matter covered by this Amendment, but I gather that it has been covered. In these circumstances, I do not propose to move my Amendment.
  LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM had given notice of an Amendment to leave out subsections (4) and (5). The noble Lord said: In

  539
  view of the fact that Her Majesty's Government are not going to put parking meters on trunk and classified roads, and that only limited experiments will be carried out at other points, I do not propose to move this Amendment.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment is formal. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 8, line 42, after ("District") insert ("and the City of London").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (5), to leave out "subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either" and insert:
  "which shall be of no effect unless approved by resolution of each."
  The noble Lord said: The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, was kind enough to ask your Lordships to give him your opinion as to whether or not the Negative or Affirmative Resolution procedure was the correct one in a number of cases that he cited. I feel sure that the noble Earl will appreciate our difficulty, because he is going to alter the substance of much of this clause, and if the safeguards which, may I say, I have pressed for, are adequately made, I am quite content with the Negative Resolution procedure. But I must reserve the right to put the Amendment down again when I see what the noble Earl proposes to do, because, first of all, I am quite certain that this must be centrally administered. I do not mind minor things being delegated such as odd pieces of supervision of parking places after they have been so designated; but it depends upon the rest of the noble Earl's implementation whether we want the Negative or the Affirmative Resolution procedure. If your Lordships will permit me to do so, I shall be happy to withdraw this Amendment to-day, with the proviso that I may put it down again after I have seen the noble Earl's suggestions. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 9, line 2, leave out ("subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I thank the noble Lord for what he has said. It would be a great mistake in this if we set out on the same course as under the Sunday Entertainments Act. I am
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  willing to consider an Affirmative Resolution here if the noble Lord thinks it is necessary. He is only extending it to another area and I think that he really would not see much in the Resolution. It would only read: "For 'Metropolitan Area,' read 'Sheffield'." I do not think it will be necessary here but I shall be glad to hear his arguments later on.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am prepared to leave myself in the hands of the noble Earl. I do not want to clutter up the administrative machinery, but I feel there is so much at stake here over the whole country. If the noble Earl thinks that there is no necessity for an Affirmative Resolution and that there is a necessity for Parliament to debate it first, I am prepared to leave it to the noble Earl.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I should like the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment now.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Yes; I will withdraw my Amendment, on that understanding.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 11:
  Amount of charges for parking and method of payment
  (4) The measurement of the time for which a vehicle is left in a parking place up to the expiration of the period for which payment was made by the initial charge may, if it is so provided in the order designating the parking place, be made by an apparatus (hereinafter referred to as a "parking meter") of such description as may be prescribed; and where parking meters are in use payment of initial charges (including such further payments as are mentioned in the proviso to subsection (2) of this section) shall be made by the insertion of coins in the parking meters.
  4.53 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved to omit subsection (4). The noble Lord said: The noble Earl has given me a full explanation of this matter, which is what my Amendment was put down for. I hope that at the next stage of the Bill he will give us more information or will put down some more precise Amendment. All noble Lords would like to know is what these charges are to be. Would it be convenient to the noble Earl to put into the Bill the maximum charge? Uniformity is essential—the noble Earl admits that. I do not want

  541
  complete rigidity, but would he consider the advisability of putting into the Bill that the standard rate per hour shall not be more than so much, that the standard rate for the second hour shall not be more than so much and that the excess charge that he was talking about of 5s. or 6s. shall be a maximum of so much? I think perhaps that would meet the case. There is nothing in the Bill. It is "as may be prescribed." If the noble Earl is sincere—and I am not saying that in a derogatory sense—if this is really what he thinks, that the excess charge is in the nature of a fine, as a substitute—
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: A deterrent.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Yes; it is a substitute for the American equivalent of a fine. I think it should be stated in the Bill that the maximum is so much. If the noble Earl will consider between now and the next stage of the Bill those three suggestions—the standard charge per hour, the standard charge per second hour and the excess charge—I will willingly withdraw this Amendment. In the meantime, I will move the Amendment so that the noble Earl can say something on it. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 9, line 38, leave out subsection (4).—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I can say this. I will gladly consider that point because it is important. There is, of course, a practical limitation and that is our currency. The only really practical coins that can be used are the sixpence and the shilling. Noble Lords can see a parking meter outside which is for coins of those denominations. The only question which may arise is how long it will be before this can be done, and whether we can put that into the Bill. I will gladly examine that. The noble Earl asked one question earlier which I can answer at once, and that is what happens if a motorist goes to a parking meter, leaves his car and does not put anything into the slot? If the noble Lord looks at Clause 13, subsection (3), he will see that it is assumed that on any car the initial charge has been paid and accordingly that the excess charge is due. So that, if you do not put in your original 6d. or 1s., you will have to pay not that but the excess charge. I think that answers the point. It is an incentive to people to see
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  that they put in the excess charge in the beginning.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: It is not, because the excess charge cannot start until the little red disc comes up "Time expired."
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: But it would be up.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: No; it might be down. What happens? A car leaves a meter and no other car comes on. The "Time expired" flag is up. Does the "Time expired" flag remain up until the next car comes on—which may not be for a long time—and a man puts some money in the slot? Does the meter then come down and go back to zero? I thought the attendant had to go along and put all the meters to zero. Some are like that. If the meter goes back to zero, I cannot be charged on a hypothetical case, because if, when I put the money into the slot, the "Time expired" flag comes down, I am free. If the "Time expired" flag stayed up before I left my car, I should certainly see that the thing came down, even if I had to put it down with a hammer.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord means: is it working properly?
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Yes.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That, of course, is also provided for in the clause. It is provided that it is assumed to be working unless the contrary is proved. I think it is quite simple. The noble Lord is a clever operator in all these things. I think it is a game to get an unexpired meter. I do not think we can provide it.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: In view of what the noble Earl has said, that he will look into this question of uniform charges, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  LORD WINSTER: Before the noble Lord withdraws his Amendment, I have one question. Is it intended that these charges shall be uniform throughout the country? As the Bill stands at present, it seems to me that the amount of the charges is to be left in the hands of the local authorities. Is there any suggestion that the charges will, in fact, be uniform throughout the country; that the local

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  authorities will not have the power to fix the charges they think right but must fix the charge laid down in the Bill?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am glad the noble Lord raised that point. If he will look at the First Schedule—it is an important point and it is important that we should be clear on this issue—he will see the procedure which is laid down. Amongst other things, when the local authority make their proposals to the Minister, they have to advertise the charges being made for the use of parking places.
  LORD WINSTER: Yes, I noticed that.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That means to say they state what they think is a reasonable figure, and the Minister has to approve it. The general idea is that these parking charges should be uniform, but I know that my right honourable friend has at the back of his mind the idea that there may be some places where cars should be moved much more quickly. I can even conceive a place, not in a main street but in a busy shopping centre, where it might be reasonable to stay half an hour but no longer; and there might be certain circumstances where an adjustment to the charge would be necessary. It is for that reason that stereotyped charges have not been put into the Bill. I have undertaken to look at this point, but I think it would be desirable to give at least some broad indication, if not to put in a precise charge. I hope that meets the noble Lord's point.
  LORD WINSTER: That is exactly the point I had in mind: that uniformity might be difficult and not even desirable in all cases, and that some discretion should be exercised.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  5.2 p.m.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS LORD MILNER OF LEEDS moved, in subsection (6), to leave out "the prescribed steps" and to insert "such steps as may be required by the Minister." The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Burden, it seems to me that, subject to the agreement of the Chair, it might be for the convenience of the Committee if some seven Amendments were taken together as they all deal with the same subject matter—I refer to Amendments
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  No. 71A, the one which I am now moving, and Nos. 71B, 71C, 71D, 72A, 73A, and 75A.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: What about Amendment 77A?
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: That is on a slightly different point, I think. The point behind these Amendments is that the Bill as at present drawn leaves the Minister to prescribe a great number of matters which, in the opinion of the Association of Municipal Corporations, can, and should be, left to the good sense of individual local authorities. Clauses 11 and 12 place an enormous number of detailed matters, most of which local authorities are quite competent to deal with, under the jurisdiction of the Minister. It is notable, for instance, that Clause 11 alone refers in no fewer than thirteen places to matters which are to be prescribed, which, by reason of the definition in subsection (8), means prescribed by an order of the Minister. The Association of Municipal Corporations and I, myself, can see no reason why the Minister and not a local authority should decide how to test a parking meter, how often to test it, how to record that it has been tested, and how much to pay to have it tested. Therefore, the first four Amendments which are all together on the Marshalled List, Nos. 71A to 71D inclusive, are designed to leave these matters to the local authority.
  Similarly, the Association feel that local authorities can be safely left to decide how vehicles shall stand in or be driven into or out of a parking place, and for how long they may remain there. All these matters could reasonably be provided for by rules or conditions or by-laws laid down by the local authorities. The Amendments to Clause 12 (that is to say, Nos. 71A, 73A and 75A) are designed to leave these matters to the local authority. Of course it would be necessary, should the Committee approve these Amendments, to make an Amendment to Part II of the First Schedule. I think the position is perfectly clear. I do not need to deal with each Amendment separately, and accordingly I beg to move the first Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 10, line 9, leave out ("the prescribed steps") and insert ("such steps as may be required by the Minister").—(Lord Milner of Leeds.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This is, shall I say, the other side of the coin. Most of the arguments have been on the side of closer Parliamentary control and the uniform authority of the Minister. The noble Lord opposite is putting forward this Amendment with the object of increasing the responsibility of the local authorities. I think most of us have considerable sympathy with his point of view, but there are two sides to this particular problem which I should like to put to the Committee.
  As I understand it, these Amendments would mean that the charges for parking, both standard and excess, would be entirely at the discretion of the local authority; that the type of parking meter would be entirely at the discretion of the local authority; that the manner in which cars enter a parking place (which is not simply a local matter but one which affects the flow of traffic) would be entirely a local authority matter; and that the total time a car remained in the park would also be a local authority matter. That would mean that the Minister would be left simply to designate the place; he would say how parking meters were to be tested; he would say what time of the day or week or month parking meters were to operate; he would deal with one or two subsidiary matters under Clause 12 (5); and he would have rather less financial control. I think that in this matter the local authority has a fairly wide responsibility, but I think equally the Minister must keep before him, first, the fact that motorists come from all over the country and are entitled to expect fair play everywhere. The point of uniformity is important here. Secondly, I think the Minister is entitled to ensure that the scheme produces results for the whole district; and thirdly, that it ensures a free flow of traffic.
  Subject to those points I would agree that the local authority should have as wide a scope for initiative as is possible. I do not see why, under a designated order, discretion should not be accorded to local authorities in appropriate cases, depending on the circumstances of the particular matters which the noble Lord has in mind. But in certain circumstances the Minister should be able to make clear in the order what he thinks to be important. The sort of thing I have in mind here, for instance, is the manner in which cars stand in a car park. As the noble
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  Lord knows, in some cases that may mean the way in which they stand on a main street. The noble Lord knows the North Bridge at Edinburgh. That is quite a suitable place for parking on the main street, and it is so used now. It is of great consequence to the Minister of Transport how cars stand. I give this only as an example of how a comparatively small thing may be quite important. Then the noble Earl, Lord Howe, mentioned occasions when parking meters should be suspended—I think under Clause 12 (6)—and there are various other matters under Clause 12 (7), such as the use by merchants of the car parks and things of that sort which, in a great many cases, can be most reasonably dealt with by the local authority; it could be left entirely to their discretion.
  But there is a broader issue, and one has to remember that in any breach of these regulations there is a criminal charge with a sanction of five pounds. It is only fair to motorists that that sanction should be fairly uniform over the country. It would be rather a nuisance if it were not standardised. I think it important that the Minister should prescribe the types of parking meters to be used. I do not say that they should be identical, but that the general specifications of parking meters should be approved by the Minister. It would be a pity to have too wide a variety. I think, too, that the standard and excess charges are matters which should be dealt with centrally. It would be a pity to put them entirely into the hands of the local authority. There is a fairly wide sphere in which the local authorities have responsibility. They have the initiative and the responsibility of operating the scheme, and there is no reason why they should not have considerable scope to ensure that the scheme results in the free flow of traffic and greater convenience to motorists. I feel that the noble Lord is asking for too much, but I can assure him that, within the limits of this scheme, the Minister will consider giving discretionary powers, where appropriate, to local authorities.
  LORD WINSTER:I entirely agree that the Minister must have a broad overriding authority, but I am sure that the noble Earl will agree that, wherever it is possible not to do so, it is most undesirable to relieve a local authority of matters for which they should be responsible, and

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  of a responsibility which they are quite capable of discharging. On broad grounds, I am opposed to too much centralisation of matters of regulation such as these, not only because I believe that that procedure puts a local authority it a rather poor position, in that it has to be told about every little detail which it has to do, but also because centralisation has the effect of overloading the Minister and his Department with far too many small matters of detail. As a result, really broad issues of policy sometimes fail to get the study and attention they deserve. I feel sure the noble Earl will bear those points in mind, because I feel that he is largely in agreement with them. There is already too much overcentralisation in these matters.
  EARL HOWE: With much that has fallen from the noble Lord, Lord Winster, I agree; but one wants to have a right of appeal at every stage. I do not want the wretched motorist to be "bulldozed." He must be given a right of appeal. If the noble Earl can satisfy me on that, I shall be quite happy. The noble Lord mentioned a criminal charge with a sanction of £5. Am I right in thinking that that is a second new offence which is being created under this Bill?
  LORD WINSTER: To some extent, the noble Earl's point is covered by my statement that the Minister must have broad overriding right of authority. I entirely agree about the right of an appeal.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I have already dealt with the question of appeal. I believe the right of appeal of those who are interested in these schemes lies right through the Bill. It is true there is a criminal angle in these provisions, otherwise an offender might take no notice of them. I will bear in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Winster, has said on over-centralisation; but of course the initiative is entirely with the local authority, and the Minister has only to approve certain things. After that, it is for the local authority to operate the scheme.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: I am not at all satisfied with the reply of the noble Earl. It is not good enough to take in all these comparatively small matters which are much more within the knowledge of the local authority than of the Minister. The noble Earl says the local
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  authority have the responsibility of initiation. That is quite right, and very sensible. The local authority have the responsibility of operating, but they get no grant and no help from the Minister; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Winster, has said, the Minister is likely to be burdened with applications from all parts of the country. How can the Minister designate certain specified streets and certain specified times, and rule as to the method of testing meters? There may be a general method of testing, so that some general indication may be given; but it seems absurd that a local authority should have these powers taken from it.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That is putting things round the wrong way. The local authority proposes its scheme and advertises it. Only when there are objections to the scheme is the Minister likely to come in. If the local authority put forward a scheme which is reasonably within the uniform standard set by the Minister, and there are no objections, I believe (I should like to get full authority but I think my interpretation is correct) that there is no question of his changing one iota of the scheme. Nothing is taken away from the local authority: in fact, power and actual responsibility are being given to them. The right is reserved only to require that, in certain respects, the scheme conforms to the general requirement of the broader issues which extend beyond the power of the local authority. I do not think, therefore, that it is right to say that anything has been taken away from the local authorities, or that their scheme would not go through straight away if they can get it through without objection.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: Do I not understand that it would be within the province or power of the Minister to approve or disapprove the particular streets put forward by the local authority? Would that not be for the Minister to decide? The noble Earl talks about the North Bridge at Edinburgh, which is a very wide one. If the Corporation of the City of Edinburgh decide that that is a suitable place for parking, and that parking there would not interfere with the free flow of traffic, will it be competent for the Minister to say that that site shall not be designated, and to put forward some other streets? And if the Doncaster Corporation, at the time of the St. Leger

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  meeting, decide that the operation of parking meters and parking places should be suspended on certain days, will the Minister have any say as to whether or not that shall be done?
  On behalf of local authorities, I take the strongest objection to the Minister's having any such powers. Such matters should be within the power of the local authority, the city or borough. The noble Earl is laying up a great burden for the Minister in assuming for him these wide powers, and I would ask him to reconsider whether some powers cannot be delegated in the Bill to local authorities. It is, of course, much easier for people in a city, borough or county to make representations to their local authority than to do so to the Minister, and I believe it would be to the general convenience, and would give much greater satisfaction to local authorities and to their people, were these detailed matters left to the local authority. That course would avoid delay, and would avoid burdening the Minister unduly. It would also be in accordance with our general procedure in these matters, that a local authority has authority within its area for comparatively small matters of this kind which may need variation from day to day or week to week, matters which would, if submitted to the Minister, result in still greater delay. I hope the noble Earl can give me an assurance that he will look at this clause again to see whether there are not some powers here, in addition to those they have at present, which can be delegated to local authorities.
  EARL HOWE: I hope the Minister will not give way too far here. I agree with the importance of what the noble Lord, Lord Winster, urged, but at the same time I believe there are many outside this House who are extremely nervous of the use which local authorities may make of their powers under this Bill. Many of us think there will be an immediate rush by all seaside resorts to try to use these parking machines still further to fleece the overtaxed motorist. I put it in that way because, when motorists are paying up to £400 million a year, one does not like to see extra charges put upon them. In this respect, I hope the Minister will retain such very modest powers as he still possesses in the Bill to say "Yes" or "No" to any scheme.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The noble Lord, Lord Winster, was at a disadvantage in not having had an opportunity of listening to the full debate which noble Lords had at the opening at half past two this afternoon, when the noble Earl invited noble Lords to express their opinion upon the principle of all these four clauses. I agree with my noble friend that the Minister should hive off the trivialities, but we are embarking upon something new in the history of this country, the hiring out of our highways for parking, and it does not merely go to the length of putting in parking meters. As the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has just said, any local authority at any seaside place can attempt to let out the whole of their promenade without putting up parking meters—the erection of parking meters is entirely permissive. They can obtain powers to charge for parking on the highway—they do not, ipso facto, have to put up parking meters—and that is a very serious thing. I hope that the noble Earl, whatever he tries—and I agree that trivialities should be hived off—will see to it that the broad main principle is adhered to. I have had bitter experience of this. If the Minister of Transport had delegated his authority on one-way streets, unilateral parking and similar matters, this country would have been in a state of chaos. We must have, on the broad principle, a central authority. I sincerely hope that upon this the noble Earl will not give way.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I appreciate the point which the noble Lord has made; but as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has said, many of these things (he instanced one-way streets and unilateral parking) are already referred to the Minister. I am not aware that there is any real difficulty about this. As I see it, and as I tried to explain before when the noble Lord was not here, there will be detailed consideration upon the spot by the people who know and who are responsible—the local authority and the police. They put forward their schemes, and those schemes are checked by objections raised by private individuals, because people may be affected personally. Then, that stage having been got through, the Minister looks to see whether any broader matters which have general application have to be dealt with—there may be something connected with the general scheme, the question of general fairness

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  to motorists and so on. All these are factors with which we have to deal. The noble Lord must recognise that there are a lot of people, in this House and outside, who are doubtful about this scheme. We do not want to plunge headlong into it: we say merely that we want to try this scheme on a limited scale. If it should appear that we are over-centralising, we certainly do not want that. We do not want to frighten the people by casting these powers widely without keeping them under proper control. I hope the noble Lord will not think that we are trying to take these things out of the hands of local authorities. That is not our intention at all.
  LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: May I ask one question? The fact that these powers remain with the Minister does not, I assume, necessarily involve a uniform system. May I take it that, though the Minister will control the larger issues, he may decide that in one town a certain price shall be charged, certain hours laid down, and certain things done, while in another town different conditions in such matters may be arranged? If this were done by the local authorities, no doubt there would be any number of different arrangements made by them. I should like to be assured that the fact that it is to be in the hands of the Minister will not involve absolute uniformity.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: It is quite correct that there will not be absolute uniformity. I have been pressed this afternoon in the direction of uniformity, but the Minister, as at present advised, does not want to tie his hands to complete uniformity. I think his idea is that there may be a fairly general charge, but that there may be circumstances in which a different charge should be made.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: The noble Earl has given me a most courteous reply, and, whilst reserving all my rights, I now beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 11 agreed to.
  Clause 12:
  General provisions for regulation of parking places
  (7) The Minister may by order make such incidental or consequential provision as appears to him requisite for the purposes of the
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  satisfactory operation of parking places designated under this Act, including in particular (but without prejudice to the generality of this subsection) provision—
  (a) for prohibiting or restricting the carrying on of trades or other activities, or the doing of any other thing, by persons using or resorting to the parking places,
  5.24 p.m.
  EARL HOWE: This Amendment is really put forward in the interest of road hauliers, who feel that in taking the power to prohibit or restrict any carrying on of trade or other activities in connection with the regulation of parking places the Government have once again left no loophole for providing access to premises by commercial vehicles. Shortly, that is the case that is put forward. I shall be interested to know what the Minister in charge will say, and I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 11, line 26, at end insert—
  ("Provided that for the purposes of this section and of any order made thereunder the delivery or collection of goods to or from any premises abutting on or adjacent to any parking place shall not be deemed to be carrying on of any trade,").—(Earl Howe.)
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT): I have great sympathy, as I think we all have, with the sentiments which lie behind this Amendment, but I do not think that I need do more than say "Ditto" to what the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor have already said on the very similar problem which has been previously discussed on, I think, Amendment No. 62, which the noble Earl also had in his name. We have great sympathy with the trader whose business may possibly be prejudiced by the placing of a parking meter too near his place of business; as indeed we have with the trader who is at present prejudiced by indiscriminate parking, although there are no meters, in front of his place of business. In this connection, public houses, which have already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, are particularly affected. At such establishments, it is essential that the unloading of beer should be done outside the premises. We shall, obviously, have to consider each of these cases on its merits.

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  The same answer, I think should be given to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, as was given on the previous question, and I would echo the words of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor that there is ample opportunity for representations to be made before any scheme has advanced very far. Anyone who has served on a local authority knows that the local traders are somewhat vocal about any scheme which is likely to prejudice their interests. I am certain that the point which the noble Earl has in mind will be threshed out very carefully before a scheme which is proposed by a local authority will get very far. As I have said, I think each case has to be taken on its merits. Of course, reasonable access must be left for legitimate traders to carry on their businesses. It would be unrealistic if such provision were not made. That does not alter the fact that some sacrifices may have to be demanded. This scheme, we hope, will result in the end in the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Motorists may have to suffer a little, traders may have to suffer a little and shopkeepers may have to suffer a little. The ideal scheme will be the one which is worked out in order to provide the maximum of convenience and the minimum of inconvenience for everyone concerned. I cannot be more specific. I can assure the noble Earl that I have great sympathy with the idea underlying the Amendment. I am certain that this sentiment will equally be echoed by the local authority; it is, after all, in their interest to remain in sympathy with those who vote for them and make certain that whatever hardship may be caused is as little as it can possibly be.
  EARL HOWE: I thank the noble Lord very much for the courtesy of his reply, and in view of what he has said I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 12 agreed to.
  Clause 13:
  Offences relating to parking places
  (5) In England or Wales the local authority may institute proceedings for any offence under this section in connection with a parking place for which they are the local authority.
  5.29 p.m.
  LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved to leave out subsection (5). The noble Lord said: I have put down this Amendment in order to elicit from Her Majesty's Government a statement as to what is to be the extent of the powers of the local authority to initiate proceedings under this clause. This subsection (5) appears to be a very wide one indeed. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 13, line 1, leave out subsection (5).—(Lord Teynham.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I view this particular clause as very serious. The noble Earl who is in charge of the Bill, when speaking on a previous Amendment, said that we did not wish to follow the American system of having "on the spot" fines, but what we are doing here, I suggest, is setting up a plain clothes police force. Perhaps the noble Earl will correct me if I am wrong, but I suggest that this clause will mean that the local authority will employ, at these car parks, attendants, plain clothes men, and they are going to be responsible for the collecting of evidence of any infringement of the law relating to car parks. For instance, if you overstay your time, as the noble Lord has said previously, you can either put six shillings for the excess time in the box, or you can pay it. Suppose you refuse to pay it. Suppose an argument arises and you attempt to drive your car away. What right has the car park attendant to demand any particulars of you—your name, your address, or to see your licence? Can he ask to see your driving licence? He can take the number of your car.
  Suppose he is the other side of the car park and you drive your car away owing an excess charge. What happens? The local authority can institute proceedings. The local authority then have to collect the evidence. In other words, they will now do the job of the police. Suppose the offence is committed in London and you happen to live in Yorkshire. At the present time if you commit an offence the police must prove the ownership of the car; your number is taken and the local police are communicated with, and the local police find out evidence of ownership. I take it that now the local authority will do that. I take it that the local authority will now send, or ask another local authority representative to go, to your house and ask you whether you are

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  the owner of car XYZ123, ask to see your licence, obtain any other particulars and collect all the evidence for a prosecution. I do not know whether I am right, but that is how I read this clause. I understand that the police will not be troubled.
  Suppose that one of these local authority representatives—I do not know whether they have the trained staff; the police have to be trained—knocked at my door at night and said. "Are you the owner of car XYZ123?" I think I should be prompted to say, "What is that to do with you?" If he asked, "Did you leave this car on a car park in London at such and such a time and not pay the excess charge?" I should again say. "What is that to do with you?" And if he then said, "Can I see your licence, your insurance certificate, and this, that and the other?" I should refuse to produce it. A police officer in uniform, yes; I naturally recognise his right to ask me those questions.
  I cannot think that that is the intention of this clause, and yet that is what I read. Because what does it say? It says "the local authority may institute proceedings." Why the local authority and not the police? We recognise that the law of this country regarding road offences is enforced by the police—at least, I think that is the procedure in this country. Are we now going to have a plain clothes police force? Is this an effort, as I take it it is an effort, not to put additional burdens on the police? I wonder whether the police have been consulted about this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has told me in regard to some of my Amendments that the police have been consulted and they say they cannot enforce this, that and the other. Have the police been consulted about this matter? Because if they were consulted I suggest they would be right against it. It is a dangerous principle to introduce in this country, that when a man is parking a car on the Queen's highway a plain clothes individual—he may be armed with a warrant somewhere about his person—can act on behalf of the local authority in the same way as the police. I do not know whether I have overstated this matter or not, but that is how I read this subsection.
  Suppose one local authority has all the impedimenta, including personnel, for
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  operating this parking system. They would need to have specially trained people, because car park attendants, if, in the future, they are going to do all this work, cannot be of the class we see on the car parks today; they will need to be specially trained in this job, with the tact of the police and perhaps the same authority; they will have to be armed with the same authority as the police to take these particulars from a private citizen. Suppose a person has committed a crime or is alleged to have committed a crime in an area where there is this highly trained force, but lives in an area where there is not; how is that difficulty overcome? Are the police asked to come in? Would it not be better to have the ordinary course of law, or the implications of the ordinary course of law that we recognise in this country: that the only person who has a right to carry on any job of this description is a police officer in uniform? I suggest it would. I suggest that the method proposed in this subsection is bad in principle. I suggest it will not work. The police have the organisation to do this work; they have done it for years. I hope the noble Lord will take this Amendment back and see whether it would not be better, in all the circumstances, to allow the police to carry on. I understand they want to carry on, and they do not want local authority or civilians to come in and do their job for them.
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I should like to be able to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, on a constructive speech, but unfortunately on this occasion he has not given me the opportunity. I do not think he has read the Amendment or the clause quite so carefully on this particular subject as he has the rest of the Bill. There is no question whatever of setting up a secret police force.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Civilian.
  LORD MANCROFT: Civilian, secret or otherwise. The attendants will be the normal car park attendants, wearing, I should imagine, badges or some insignia to designate who they are. They will have no more powers than the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, or I have, or the other existing car park attendants

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  at the moment. They will have no power to demand licences or names and addresses. All they will have the power to do is write down the number of the car. The purpose of this part of the Bill is solely to relieve the police of as much extra work as possible. It will not take away from the police their rights arid duties as they at present exist.
  After all, the local authorities are empowered, in Statute after Statute, to initiate proceedings, and there is no talk about "civilian police." If your dog commits an offence on the highway, the local sanitary inspector, a uniformed officer of the local authority, will initiate proceedings against you under the Public Health Acts. So could the police. And this is exactly parallel. We have not gone so far as they have in France, and introduced fining on the spot. We have not done it in this Bill, and I should be very surprised if, with a view to alleviating the work falling upon the shoulders of the police, it were recommended in any way by the Sharpe Committee which is at present examining the whole of this question. We are trying here to alleviate the duties which fall on the shoulders of the police; but they and they alone have the authority to conduct the investigations which the noble Lord suggested may be necessary if the purposes of the clause are not to be defeated.
  I imagine, however, that in many cases there will be no need whatsoever to call in the police. I can equally well see that occasions will arise when the services of the police will be required. But let me reiterate: the local authority will have no more power than under existing Statutes. On these occasions, therefore, the police will take the normal steps, and the law will pursue its normal course. That is merely the exceptional case. At first nearly all prosecutions—which I hope will be extremely few—will be initiated by the local authority, which possesses no more power than I have just outlined to your Lordships. If those powers fail, if the problem is complicated, if it crosses the border of a county or there is a difference of opinion about evidence, the police may have to be called in, and they will exercise their normal powers. I am sure, however, that your Lordships will agree that it is only right that we should relieve the police of as much of the burden as we possibly can in these cases and
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  leave proceedings in the hands of the local authorities who, in case after case under present Statutes, have used the powers given them by Parliament to initiate proceedings with little or no trouble at all.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am glad to have the noble Lord's assurance. It seems so clear when he says it, but I can assure him that there is a wide misunderstanding about this matter. I believe I am right in saying that the Chief Constables' Association made serious representations to the Government about this subsection, so I was not alone in misunderstanding it. In view of what the noble Lord says, I am willing to accept the subsection as it is. I hope it turns out precisely as he has said, because at the present time the police, not the local authority, take action against illegal parking. If a motorist leaves his car for too long or outside a designated parking place, the police take action.
  LORD MANCROFT: There is nobody else to initiate proceedings in that case.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If he leaves it in a parking place and commits precisely the same offence, the local authority are empowered to take action.
  LORD MANCROFT: Because their representative is there.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Their representative has the same functions on a parking place as a policeman has on a street, where there is no parking place. I accept what the noble Lord says, but if it turns out that my interpretation is correct, I think the noble Lord will be very sorry. I hope it is going to turn out as he interprets it. In view of the assurance of the Government that that is their intention, I will not support the noble Lord's Amendment as I had intended to do.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I think the country will be grateful for the assurances and explanations given by the noble Lord who is replying for the Government. As I understand it, parking attendants will have power only to write down the numbers of cars. The whole system is really to be geared to help the police and save their time when possible. I also understand that the local authorities will have no

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  more power than they have at the present time. With those assurances, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 13 agreed to.
  Clause 14 [Parking places: financial provisions]:
  5.46 p.m.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS LORD MILNER OF LEEDS moved, in subsection (2) (a), to omit "with the consent of the Minister." The noble Lord said: Clause 14 provides that local authorities must keep accounts of income and expenditure from parking places, that any deficit in the account shall be made good out of the general rate fund and that any surplus shall be applied to certain specific purposes set out in subsection (3). The clause also provides that local authorities may apply any surplus towards other purposes, provided that they obtain the Minister's consent. The Association of Municipal Corporations strongly object to the proposal that local authorities must not apply any surplus which may arise from parking places for such purposes as they think fit without getting the Minister's consent. Local authorities cannot see what concern it is of the Minister what happens to parking fees. There is no grant made by the Minister towards the provision of parking places or parking machines. The whole of the apparatus and the expense is to be "footed" by the local authorities. Indeed, the entire financing of the scheme is to be done by the local authorities out of the general rate fund. Therefore, it does not seem right, if any surplus arises, that the local authorities should not be able to dispose of it as they think fit, having regard to the proposals made in the earlier part of the clause.
  It may be that a local authority wish to use a surplus for some other purpose. The specified purposes for which they may apply money are, first, to make good to the general rate fund any deficit incurred during the past four years; secondly, to provide parking accommodation otherwise than on the highway, and thirdly to make contributions towards other local authorities for parking accommodation. It may be that a local authority will wish to apply this surplus to some other purpose—for example, to provide parking places on the highway
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  and not off the highway. It does not seem right that the Minister's consent should have to be obtained by the local authority before they can use surpluses arising from their own efforts as they think fit. Surely the use of this money is essentially a matter for the local authorities themselves, and I hope the Government and the Committee will agree. I beg to move the Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 13, line 11, leave out ("with the consent of the Minister").—(Lord Milner of Leeds.)
  LORD WOLVERTON: I hope the Committee will not pass this Amendment, because the whole object of this proposal is to control finances in a certain way. For the first time this Bill authorises a charge for parking on Her Majesty's highway, and the only excuse for making this charge is that the money should go to certain specific purposes. I hope that it will go towards making extra parking places, but if the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, is accepted, a local authority may use the money for anything. I think that would be most unfair to the motorist, because in a way it is an extra tax on him to provide, we hope, for extra parking facilities.
  LORD WINSTER: I should like to support the Amendment moved by my noble friend. The purposes for which a local authority may apply a surplus are laid down in this clause. They seem to me to be excellent purposes, and whichever of them a local authority chooses I do not think they could do very much harm. I should think that a local authority could be trusted to use the money for one of those three purposes to the benefit of the locality for which they are responsible. That being so, and as the Minister has laid down the choice of three, I do not see why the consent of the Minister need be obtained for applying a surplus to one of those three purposes which he has already specified.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, realises that this clause is fundamental to the whole conception of these three clauses. I am sorry he said that the local authorities strongly object, because I am sure they must appreciate that there would be violent objections elsewhere if the purposes for which this money could be expended were not fairly clearly laid down.

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  I do not know whether the noble Lord really wanted to go outside the purposes laid down in Clause 14, but he certainly gave me the impression that he felt the local authority should be able to spend the money for almost any purpose. Perhaps he did not mean to go so far as that. I hope the noble Lord will recognise that it is fundamental to this scheme, and that there would be the most violent objection, if I interpret the situation rightly, if this money were not spent for these purposes. So far as the Government are concerned, they stand firm on that.
  I am bound to say, however, that I think there is a point in what the noble Lord, Lord Winster, said. We have laid it down that before varying the sequence in which money has to be expended—that is to say, whether they spend it on their own car park, or on somebody else's car parks, or carry it forward—they must get the consent of the Minister. On the other hand, I am given to understand that, as the Bill is drafted, the local authority could carry forward the money indefinitely into the future. I think that goes too far and, if the noble Lord agrees, what I will try to do is this. I will meet him so far as to say that, before they carry the money forward, they have got to get the consent of the Minister, but that for any of the purposes laid down they will be able to do it without the consent of the Minister. I feel that that is a reasonable suggestion, and I hope it meets the point the noble Lord has in mind.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: Not in the least; on the contrary, it is imposing a greater restriction on the local authority than exists at present.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: No.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: Yes, it is. At present, under paragraph (a) of subsection (2) the local authority are to apply the money received from the car parking to the purposes set out, and paragraph (b) goes on to say that any surplus:
  "in so far as not applied as aforesaid, shall be carried forward in the account…"
  The noble Earl now says that the local authority can carry the amount forward to the accounts of the next financial year only provided that the Minister agrees. That is imposing a restriction on the local authority. It would appear, therefore, that the Minister may instruct the local authority to use the money for some other
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  purposes—it may be one of the three purposes set out in the clause. It seems to me to be quite wrong to impose on the local authority a restriction of that sort, whereby, if they carry out the purposes of the clause and apply the funds primarily to one of the three purposes set out in the clause, they are not allowed from year to year to carry the amount of the surplus forward, except with the consent of the Minister. Undoubtedly, a further restriction is imposed, rather than the opposite, as the noble Earl suggests.
  EARL HOWE: I ant sure we all recognise that the noble Lord who has just spoken speaks with great authority, but at the same time it is exasperating from the point of view of the motor world, which is being "soaked" with taxes at the moment. Many of us are fearful that some of these local authorities will use this Bill in order further to "milk" the motorist; and that would be intensely resented by the motor world.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: As a motorist myself, I could not agree more with the noble Earl on that; but it does not seem to me that there is any safeguard here against that. The question here is whether the money shall be spent by the local authority in one year or another, or spent on the instruction of the Minister—that is what really matters. There is no question of "soaking" the motorist here. I recognise the knowledge of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on these matters—and I have more than once seen him go "round the houses" at Monte Carlo and greatly admired him—and I am fully in sympathy with his general point of view. However, I feel that here there is a case where the local authority should have some discretion.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I think possibly the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, was not present earlier when I pointed out that in a number of cities in the United States of America money raised from parking meters has been used for all kinds of purposes which have nothing whatever to do with the facilities for parking cars. I had hoped that nothing of that nature would creep into this Bill.
  LORD WINSTER: If I am right in thinking that the offer of the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, is that a local authority applying the surplus for one of the three purposes laid down in the clause will not

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  have to seek the approval of the Minister, but will have to seek his approval only if they wish to apply that money to some other purpose, then that meets my point.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That is what I had in mind; but my proposal has been so badly received by the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, that I wonder whether it will serve any useful purpose. On my interpretation of Clause 14 (2) (a) and (b) I am not quite certain that, as at present drafted, they could carry the money forward without the consent of the Minister. I am influenced by what my noble friend Lord Teynham has said, and I do not think the local authorities should be free indefinitely to carry the money forward. It seems to me that Parliament must insist that it should be spent for this purpose. I agree with the noble Lord that how it is spent might be reasonably left to the local authority. I do not think this is an unreasonable suggestion, with respect to the noble Lord. If he can see his way to indicating that it will help him, then I will try to redraft something on those lines.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: If the noble Earl can do that, then we can look at it again on the Report stage. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved to add to the Clause:
  "(5) This section and the preceding four sections shall continue in force until the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and sixty, and no longer unless Parliament otherwise determines."
  The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is merely to limit the operation of the Bill. The Government have said on several occasions that this is an experiment. If the experiment were limited to three years, many of us feel that that would be an adequate time in which to form a judgment as to the success or otherwise of the experiment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 13, line 33, at end insert the said subsection.—(Earl Howe.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: It is somewhat difficult to meet this point and at the same time meet the point on which
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  I was pressed earlier to-day, that the whole of this scheme should be closely linked with the proper provision of off-street parking. That is the difficulty about this Amendment. We cannot expect a local authority to go ahead with any reasonable scheme unless they have some assurance of the continuance in the vicinity of the source of revenue for which the scheme is built up. We have already circumscribed the scheme in area, and we have already circumscribed it by a close method of examination. If the noble Earl likes, I would rather make its extension in the metropolitan area more difficult. But I think this Amendment would cut at the root of what I believe people like my noble friend Lord Teynham have particularly in mind—that is, the building up of off-street garages to be connected with the scheme—and would make the scheme impossible to operate. I think the analogy that the noble Earl has in mind of the 30 m.p.h. speed limit which was put into the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill is not the same. This was imposed on the whole country, in all built-up areas at one and the same time. None of these schemes will come into operation until the whole of the procedure laid down in the First Schedule has been gone through. There is nothing hurried about it: it will be a careful procedure open to a great many objections at different stages. In fact, I think it would be quite difficult to get a scheme through at all under this limitation. If the scheme is to come to an end in three years' time it would not encourage any local authority to put forward a worthwhile scheme of off-street operations. I hope, therefore, that the noble Earl will not press the Amendment.
  EARL HOWE: I recognise the force of what the noble Earl has said, and I will not press my Amendment. At the same time, I am much more nervous about the operation of this Bill and these clauses in the provinces than I am in London. I can see fairly well how it may work in London, but I cannot see the end of it in areas outside, and I am very nervous with regard to the use which may be made of the Act in the watering places throughout the country. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 14 agreed to.
  6.2 p.m.
  LORD MONK BRETTON LORD MONK BRETTON moved, after Clause 14 to insert the following new clause:
  Extension of powers to make advances for certain purposes
  ".The powers of the Minister under section seventeen of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, to make advances for certain purposes shall include a power to make advances for the provision of parking places by a local authority under section sixty-eight of the Public Health Act, 1925, as extended by section sixteen of the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, and for the purposes of this section the expression 'local authority' shall include county councils."
  The noble Lord said: I am moving this Amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lord Gisborough, who regrets that he is unable to be here today. It has, I believe, a considerable measure of support in the country. The proposal is that the central Government should make grants to the authorities to help in the provision of off-street parking. At the present time, the Minister has no power to make these grants. Although car parks are a necessary and natural adjunct to the highway system of the country, the provision of car parks is entirely divorced from those who deal with the construction of highways. It seems somewhat illogical that the authority which has power to construct roads should not also be responsible for the provision of parking places for the traffic which uses the roads. The suggestion—and it is only a suggestion—so far as the Amendment is concerned, is that grants for car parks should be on a similar basis to those for roads and regarded as equally important. It has been said that the whole road system is analogous to a railway system which possesses no sidings. The desirability of introducing legislation to enable grants to be made from central funds was stressed in the Report on London Traffic Congestion, 1951, when grants were considered essential to avoid an excessive burden on the rates of local authorities.
  Parking meters may, after all, have to be regarded in these areas as an experiment. If successful, they will, I believe, help in meeting the need which has been mentioned to-day for off-street car parks. It is somewhat severe on motorists if they are to be called upon to bear the whole burden of expense in providing off-street parking facilities. Obviously, it is difficult to decide how the burden should be
  566
  apportioned. There is obviously some case to be made out for a contribution from the ratepayers, because the provision of a car park will bring business to their locality. This Amendment may be of considerable use in dealing with particular cases which do not appear capable of solution in other ways. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord is moving from the position which we have had up to now, since the Public Health Act, 1925, by which parking was the responsibility of the local authority, and he is suggesting that it should now be undertaken on a national basis. To some extent we recognise that fact in the five clauses with which we have just dealt. We are there providing revenue for local authorities, expressly with the object of their obtaining a certain amount of finance for this purpose. How far is the noble Lord justified in saying that this is a matter which should be thrown on the Exchequer? It is an argument which is, I know, widely used for all sorts of purposes—"Let the Exchequer pay for it. It does not matter; they have plenty of money and they can find it." I think that is a very dangerous argument to use for a matter like parking, which, I would say, is primarily a local concern, and I think it is quite right and proper that it should be dealt with on that basis. If at any time the Government feel that they should make a contribution to local authorities for this purpose, they will not hesitate to come to Parliament and ask for powers. At the present moment, however, to accept this Amendment would, I am afraid, be tantamount to accepting the principle that they want to go in for this form of public expenditure. I cannot say anything of that sort now; therefore I must ask the noble Lord whether he will withdraw his Amendment.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: I am certainly prepared not to press the Amendment. It was prompted by the great need to get matters started, and also by the doubt whether the revenue from parking meters will be sufficient in all cases. In view of what has been said, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  6.8 p.m.
  LORD MONK BRETTON LORD MONK BRETTON moved, after Clause 14 to insert the following new clause:
  Power for County Councils to provide parking places for vehicles
  ". Section sixty-eight of the Public Health Act, 1925, which relates to the provision of parking places for the purpose of relieving or preventing congestion of traffic as extended by section sixteen of the Restriction of Development Act, 1935, shall have effect as if the expression 'local authority' included county councils and as if in the application of that section to county councils the word 'county' had been inserted therein in lieu of the word 'district'."
  The noble Lord said: The object of this new clause is to extend to county councils the right now possessed by other authorities to provide parking places off the highway. The authorities that now have this power are town councils, urban district councils and rural district councils. The power is given to them under the Public Health Act, 1925, Section 68. They are the local authority within the meaning of that section. The power was subsequently extended by the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, to enable the London County Council, the Corporation of the City of London and the metropolitan boroughs to provide parking places, if authorised so to do by order of the Minister of Health. This new clause is designed, as I have mentioned, to provide county councils with the power to construct off-street parking places. I feel that the time may come when this is necessary and that there will be places where it particularly applies. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 14, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am bound to confess that I thought this Amendment was consequential on the previous Amendment which the noble Lord moved, because it did not occur to me that county councils would be anxious to make grants to other local authorities unless they had previously received a grant from the Treasury. I may be wrong in that assumption, but I have no evidence that I am. If the county councils say that they want this power, then we should be only too pleased to give it to them. I would hesitate to incorporate it in this Bill, however, until we have carried out experiments and found out what they
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  really want to do. If they say they want the power, we will give it. But I must confess that up to the present time we have had no indications of that character at all. In these circumstances, if the noble Lord would be good enough to withdraw the Amendment, I should be glad.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: Possibly the time is rather premature for this Amendment. In view of what has been said, I beg leave to withdraw it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 15:
  Penalties and disqualifications
  15.—(1) The following provisions shall have effect as respects penalties and disqualifications which a person is liable to incur on a conviction for an offence under section ten (speeding), section eleven (reckless or dangerous driving), section twelve (careless driving) or section fifteen (driving under the influence of drink or a drug) of the Act of 1930 in connection with the driving of a motor vehicle, that is to say:—
  (a) a fine imposed on a first conviction for an offence under the said section ten (not being a conviction to which subsection (5) of that section applies) may be of an amount not exceeding thirty pounds, and subsection (2) of that section (which prevents the court from disqualifying an offender on a first or second conviction) shall not apply to a second conviction;
  (c) the disqualification required to be imposed by subsection (3) of the said section eleven (which requires the court, except in special circumstances, to impose a disqualification on a second or subsequent conviction for an offence under that section) shall be for a period of not less than nine months unless more than three years have elapsed since the offender's last conviction under that section;
  (2) Subsection (3) of section six of the Act of 1934 (which empowers a court, on the conviction of a person for an offence of reckless, dangerous or careless driving, to order that he be disqualified from driving until he has passed a driving test) shall apply to offences under section fifteen of the Act of 1930 (which relates to driving under the influence of drink or a drug), and the court shall make an order under the said subsection (3) in any case where it makes an order under section six of the Act of 1930 disqualifying for any period a person convicted of any such offence as aforesaid, or where a person so convicted is so disqualified by virtue of the conviction.
  6.10 p.m.
  EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (1), to add to paragraph (b): "within three years of a first conviction;". The noble

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  Earl said: This Amendment is important. The proposals under this Bill greatly stiffen the penalties with regard to various offences to do with exceeding the speed limit. As the law stands at present, a defendant who is convicted of exceeding the speed limit cannot have a sentence of disqualification imposed upon him on a first or second conviction. Clause 15 (1) (a), besides increasing the maximum penalty to £30, also removes the protection in regard to a sentence of disqualification in respect of a second conviction. This Amendment is intended to limit the power to disqualify on a second conviction to cases where such conviction occurs within three years, or thirty-six months, of the date of the first conviction. As the Bill stands, if a motorist exceeded the speed limit in the old days of the 20 m.p.h. limit there is nothing to prevent that conviction from being brought up against him. Of course, that law bears no relation to the present day and I cannot believe that that is really the intention of the Bill. At any rate, it is only common justice that, if a motorist has a clean licence at the end of three years, he should not have previous convictions brought up against him. If they are, there are a number of Members of this House and also of another place who will be likely sufferers in the future. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 14, line 4, at end insert ("within three years of a first conviction;").—(Earl Howe.)
  LORD TEYNHAM: I should like to add my support to this Amendment. During the Second Reading of this Bill, I pointed out this curious anomaly. I hope that Her Majesty's Government have had time to look into this matter. I think it is absurd that the sins of one's youth should be visited upon one very much later on.
  LORD MANCROFT: This is one of a series of Amendments directed against the increased penalties which are proposed under this Bill. As my noble friend Lord Selkirk and I both remarked during the course of our Second Reading speeches, it is the intention of the Government to tighten up the penalties for using a car in an anti-social manner. In the course of that debate, the point was made by more than one of your Lordships that the courts, in their wisdom and discretion, sometimes impose light penalties, even
  570
  where Parliament has quite clearly provided that a much more heavy penalty might be incurred. One can do no more, at this time, than to suggest that the intention of Parliament is that these offences should be regarded much more gravely, and that is the broad hint given in the penalties included in this clause.
  I quite appreciate the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, about the sins of our youth—indeed, I appreciated it when the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, made it upon the Second Reading. The answer is surely this. The power to inflict the penalty of disqualification is purely discretionary in these cases, and I am certain that no courts would fail to take into consideration the factors which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has just mentioned—twenty years of undetected crime or, indeed, innocence. One cannot lay down in an Act of Parliament every comma and every full-stop for the guidance of the courts. The courts, as they always do in these cases, must exercise their discretion. I would therefore ask noble Lords not to fetter the courts in any way so that they are unable in suitable cases to inflict the serious penalty of disqualification. We all know that in many cases disqualification is a much more serious penalty upon a motorist than a fine. If the courts were not given discretion in this matter in the Bill, I should have a great deal more sympathy with Lord Howe's arguments; but, since it is so, and one can rely upon the courts not to act harshly in the cases which he has suggested, I would ask your Lordships to leave this particular section of the clause as it is, in order to suggest, by the strengthening of these penalties, the gravity with which Parliament regards the anti-social use of the motor car.
  EARL HOWE: The noble Lord has directed most of his arguments to the penalties. He has pointed out to us that the penalty of disqualification may follow on a second conviction. We are not kicking against that. It was made quite clear in Second Reading, and it was recognised, I think, by everybody, that the Government desire to strengthen the penalties; but we feel that the operation of the law in respect of the speed limit per se may be most inequitable. One of the things that has exasperated many people, and which makes them less than ever ready to observe the law in some

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  cases, I am afraid, is the inequitability of the administration of the law in respect, particularly, of motor cases. One bench will, for the sake of argument, take a very lenient view of an offence, while another bench takes a very serious view. It is the inequitability of the law that troubles people. That is something we cannot help but, at the same time, it seems that it is quite unnecessary, while stiffening up the penalties, to make it indefinitely retrospective. Surely it is not an unreasonable request that there should be a limitation. If three years is too short a time, would the Minister give some consideration to some other period and suggest a different period on the Report stage? I cannot believe that we want to rake up the past the whole time in these cases, or that failure to do so would in any way jeopardise the administration of the Act or defeat its intention.
  LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: The noble Lord the Minister has referred to what he has called the "anti-social" conduct of motorists on the road. I cannot believe that, in many cases, exceeding the speed limit is an anti-social act, because those who are prosecuted are usually prosecuted for technical infringements on roads where there is no danger at all. I have already referred to the fact that this speed limit is desirable at certain times of the day when there is danger about, but that is not usually the time when the motorist is "had up": he is usually "had up" when there is no danger at all. Consequently, the Minister must not get carried away with the idea that every time one exceeds the speed limit one is being anti-social. Having, I hope, established the fact that exceeding the speed limit is not a very heinous crime, if there is an episode in which it is a bad case, then the motorist need never be prosecuted for exceeding the speed limit; he can be prosecuted for dangerous driving. But in this particular case we are referring to two episodes of a purely technical nature where the law has been broken. To "dig up" an offence where, say, twenty years ago on a barren road one happened to be followed by a motor car, with the result that one is now liable to have one's licence suspended, is to give to the courts a power of punishment which would not be endorsed by most people in this country.
  LORD MANCROFT: I appreciate the power of the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara. The noble Lord will appreciate that when I used the word "anti-social" I was of course referring to speeding, to dangerous driving, to careless driving, to drunken driving and other offences of this type. I was not, of course, referring solely to speeding, the least antisocial of the offences we are now discussing. I would only say that I think the discretionary power, which I have emphasised more than once still rests in the courts, is the safeguard against some perfectly trivial and unimportant offence being punished unduly harshly. If the Committee feel strongly about this, I will, as carefully as I can, look at any further Amendment which the noble Earl cares to put down on the Report stage. But at the moment I suggest that the discretionary power vested in the courts, who after all have never shown themselves particularly unjust or harsh to motorists, is more than an adequate safeguard.
  EARL HOWE: The noble Lord cannot have appeared before some of the Surrey benches, or he would never have said that. However, if it is clear that the Minister is ready to give some further consideration to the point raised in this Amendment, I am quite content not to press it today. But I must have an assurance to that effect. If the Minister is prepared to give that assurance, all well and good; otherwise I shall press it.
  LORD MANCROFT: The assurance, which I hope will meet the point of my noble friend, is that if, on the Report stage, he would care to put down an Amendment containing some different wording it will be most carefully considered.
  EARL HOWE: What more can I do? Can the noble Lord assure me that he is prepared to give the matter consideration? If he thinks three years too short a period and would like to make it four years or five years, then I know what to do. But can the noble Lord give me an idea what he wishes me to do? I am quite prepared to consider the matter.
  LORD MANCROFT: I do not wish to conduct a Dutch auction with the noble Earl. I will certainly take advice and get in touch with the noble Earl to see if I can meet him. I do not wish to quarrel with him over this, which does not

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  seem to me an important matter. I certainly undertake that I will look at the matter again.
  EARL HOWE: That being so, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment for the moment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  6.24 p.m.
  LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, in subsection (1), to leave out paragraph (c). The noble Lord said: I beg to move this Amendment which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Derwent. I suggest that it is far better to leave the whole question of the period of disqualification to the discretion of the courts, who have the advantage of seeing the defendant and hearing his plea as to the whole circumstances in which the offence occurred. Here I am asking that the whole question should be left at the discretion of the court. As the noble Lord who replied for the Government said, in the last Amendment it was somewhat different—and he cannot have it both ways. Surely every case should be judged on its merits, and it is not right that the period of disqualification for driving or permitting the driving of an uninsured vehicle should, in the absence of special reasons, automatically be twelve months, but on a second conviction for dangerous driving the period of disqualification should be only nine months. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 14, line 13, leave out paragraph (c).—(Lord Teynham.)
  LORD MANCROFT: Here the problem is approached from a slightly different angle. In the Bill we are trying not to be unduly harsh on the dangerous driver. We think the dangerous driver needs severely punishing, but not to such an extent as is clearly unjust. Unfortunately, what has been happening is that courts have been giving derisory sentences of fourteen days' disqualification, which makes a mockery of the whole thing. What we are trying to do is to bring this penalty more into line with the severity of the penalties for driving under the influence of drink or a drug. I grasp the noble Lord's point about the discretion of the court. Here it is not quite a discretion, but an amelioration. When a court feels that it would not be appropriate to impose a period of disqualifica-
  574
  tion of nine months (that is the new period in this Bill), they may consider whether there are "special circumstances" or that more than three years have elapsed since the last conviction. I quite agree that "special circumstances" do not go quite so far as an absolute discretion, but I think the safeguards are fairly clearly set out. In view of the importance that is placed upon the desire to punish these cases severely, I would ask the noble Lord not to weaken the hand of the courts in this case, but to agree with me that the "special circumstances" provision and the three years' proviso give to the courts considerable latitude to see that no injustice or undue harshness is applied. This is a serious offence; I think we may as well admit it to ourselves and stick to our guns.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I am sorry that the noble Lord is not prepared to leave it to the discretion of the court, a course which, in all the circumstances, would I think have been best. But in view of what has been said, I do not propose to press this Amendment, and I beg leave to withdraw it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  EARL HOWE: This Amendment is almost precisely the same in character as the one which I moved just now. I hold no brief whatever for those properly convicted of dangerous or careless driving, but I feel that there should be a reasonable limit to the period to which one can go back. If the noble Lord is able to give further consideration to this point (he may think that he cannot accept the period mentioned here), I should be quite content. Perhaps the noble Lord could give me the same answer as before. I cannot, in respect of this Amendment, any more than I can in respect of the other one, agree to an unlimited digging up of the past. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 14, line 30, at end insert ("within three years of a first conviction;").—(Earl Howe.)
  LORD MANCROFT: The noble Earl, Lord Howe, is quite right in saying that this deals very nearly with the same case as the one which he advanced on the last Amendment but one; so I will waste your Lordships' time no further by reiterating my argument, although I reserve my right with the same forcefulness as the

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  noble Earl, Lord Howe, has been reserving his right so far this afternoon. I will certainly consider this matter again, in conjunction with Amendment No. 83 which marches with it, and I will see whether I can do something to qualify the noble Earl's ideas, or at least to persuade him that mine are more powerful than he believes them to be.
  EARL HOWE: That being so, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  6.28 p.m.
  LORD SEMPILL LORD SEMPILL moved, in subsection (2), to omit all words after "1934" and to insert:
  "shall have effect as if there were substituted for the word 'may' the word 'shall'."
  The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to make obligatory the taking of a driving test in cases where the person concerned has been convicted of reckless, dangerous or careless driving. As your Lordships know, a large proportion of experienced drivers have never taken a test, and I suggest that an even larger proportion would fail if they did. The British School of Motoring, by testing some 1,600 qualified drivers during the last twelve months, found that nearly 25 per cent. of those who have passed the Government test subsequently acquire dangerous and careless habits which contribute substantially towards the road accidents incidence, Obviously, it is not possible to ensure that every qualified driver on the road takes a periodical test. It is equally obvious, I suggest, that any driver who has, by conviction for one of these offences, been proved to fall below the minimum standard of safety requirements, should be required to show that this was a momentary lapse rather than chronic inability.
  Nor can it be argued with conviction that the effect of this Amendment would be to impose such a heavy penalty on the offender that the courts would be reluctant to record a conviction. It would rather establish the need for a convicted driver to show that his standard of driving reached that required by the Government test. I suggest that if he was unable to do so, then it would be necessary for him to attain this standard under the conditions appertaining to a provisional licence, and so ensure that, in proved
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  cases of incompetence, the intention of Parliament to maintain a minimum of efficiency is realised. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 15, line 1, leave out from ("1934") to end of line 11 and insert ("shall have effect as if there were substituted for the word 'may' the word 'shall'.").—(Lord Sempill.)
  EARL HOWE: I am sure the noble Lord will forgive me if I strongly oppose his proposal. In relation to other Amendments which have just been moved, the Minister has several times said that he does not wish to fetter the discretion of the court. By this Amendment, if the case is a serious one, he may be doing so. The noble Lord wants to say "shall," which means that for a not very serious offence of this character the offender has to be given six months. Why fetter the court? I am sure the noble Lord would not wish to press such a thing for, after all, a certain amount of discretion must be given to the court in a case of this kind and all such cases are carefully considered. I very much hope that Her Majesty's Government will not give way too much here.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord, Lord Sempill, has framed his Amendment very simply, but if noble Lords will look carefully, they will realise that the matter is exceedingly complicated. Perhaps I might explain what is the law, what the Bill proposes, and what the noble Lord, Lord Sempill proposes; because they are an interesting contrast. At present, under the 1934 Act, if a person is convicted of driving carelessly or recklessly, the court may disqualify him from holding a driving licence until he takes a driving test. That is fully in the discretion of the court. This Bill says, first, that the offence of driving under the influence of drink or drugs is added to those of dangerous and careless driving as offences for which the court may require a convicted person to pass a driving test. Secondly, the Bill requires that in every case where a driver is disqualified from holding a licence, for whatever reason, whether for careless driving, dangerous driving or driving under the influence, that driver must take a test before he gets back his licence.
  The noble Lord, Lord Sempill, in his Amendment, does not add the offence of driving under the influence to those offences for which the court may, in its discretion, require a driving test before the

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  convicted person can drive again; he omits that offence, but he says that in all case of conviction of dangerous and careless driving—but not, of course, of driving under the influence—a convicted driver shall be required to take a test before his licence is restored. I do not like either of these changes very much. It does not seem unreasonable that a court should have, in its discretion, power to require a man convicted of driving under the influence to undergo a driving test. I see no reason why a court should not have such discretion.
  The second part of the noble Lord's argument is that a test should be an automatic sequel to any conviction for careless or dangerous driving. But, as my noble friend has said, I believe that, generally, Parliament seeks to avoid automatic penalties, for the reason that if the penalty is automatic it sometimes happens that those who have to make up their mind in regard to convictions are influenced by the nature of the penalty. I believe it is fairly well established that Parliament is rightly most anxious to keep completely separate, on the one hand, the trial and conviction and, on the other, the sentence which, in the discretion of a judge or magistrate, may follow. I wonder whether there is any great safety factor involved here. The noble Lord has quoted the British School of Motoring. That school obviously want to show how important is their work—I am not blaming them for that, but clearly it is their business to do so. They say that a large number of people would be the better for proper instruction, and it would be surprising if they did not take that view. It would appear to me that whenever a court was satisfied of the necessity it would automatically, within its discretion, impose a test. That is what is proposed under the Bill.
  LORD SILKIN: May I ask the noble Earl whether he has any information as to the extent to which this discretionary power is at present being used?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am sorry; I have not that information at the moment, and I am not sure that it is available. I will make investigation to find out whether this power is being extensively used at the present time. To some extent, the period during which the test could be taken would depend on
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  fortuitous circumstances; but in regard to motor-cyclists who are driving on a temporary licence, it would make absolutely no difference to them. I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment. I appreciate the reasons for which he has put it forward, but I believe Parliament would be very jealous of accepting automatic penalties of that character.
  LORD SEMPILL: I am sorry that the noble Earl does not agree with my Amendment. In view of his long explanation as to why it should not be accepted, although, with respect, I would say that it carries no conviction in my mind, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, in subsection (2), to leave out all words after "1930," where that date first occurs. The noble Lord said: Noble Lords will have seen that subsection (2) of this clause provides that when a person is convicted for driving under the influence of drink or drugs and is disqualified, he can be ordered to undergo a driving test. It may be desirable that a court should have discretionary power to order a person who is convicted of driving under the influence of drink to take a driving test, but it seems quite useless to require the court to do so in every case. Surely the test is one of competence to drive and is not a form of punishment; therefore, I suggest that the obligation to take a test should be imposed on a defendant only when the evidence before the court has indicated that that defendant lacks ability as a driver when sober. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 15, line 6, leave out lines 6 to 11.—(Lord Teynham.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, on this Amendment. I agree that it is a matter of discretion; but is the man being tested for his ability to drive when drunk? It appears to me, as the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has said, that a driving test is imposed not as a punishment but because the court have some doubt in their minds, through his careless, reckless or dangerous driving, whether he is a competent driver. If the imposition of a driving test upon a man who has been convicted of driving "under the influence" is a

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  punishment, then let us say that the taking of a driving test is an added punishment. But I do not believe that that is the intention of Her Majesty's Government. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, that the court should be given discretion to impose a driving test only when the court is satisfied that the individual is not technically competent to handle a motor-car. How they are going to do that in this case, when he is drunk, I do not know. I think that the principle behind these words is wrong, and I hope that the noble Earl will either accept Lord Teynham's Amendment or will put in some other words to cover the point which both Lord Teynham and I have made.
  VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: If the person in question who is convicted of driving when "under the influence" is a person who has never taken a test before, and that is ascertained, I can see the force of making him undergo a test. But unless that proviso is made, I must support Lord Teynham.
  6.40 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: There are, I think, two proposals here. One is that driving "under the influence" should be brought within the general discretion conferred by the 1934 Act. That Act lays down that it lies within the discretion of the courts to ask for a test before a man is allowed to drive again. The other proposal is for a general proviso that those who have been disqualified from holding a licence shall have to pass a test before they get it back again. In regard to the first, it is all very well to say that no one knows that the person in question is incompetent. No one knows that he is competent. I should have thought that this was a matter in which the court should have discretion if they feel inclined to ask a man to do a test. I recognise that it is very easy to argue to the contrary.
  Coming to the second part, I am not very sure of the exact effect of the intervention of the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven. It seems to me that he raised the question whether the fact that a man has taken a test in the past is proof of fitness or not. If I may speak from my own experience—and this is a matter in which I have experience—I would cite the case of pilots of aeroplanes. Such people
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  are frequently tested. It is a routine matter for air lines to re-test their pilots. I should have thought that it would not be a bad thing to have a similar system applied with regard to car driving. Again, in regard to the second part we have made the suggestion that any man who loses his licence should undergo a test. We make the suggestion because in any case in which a man, by his conduct, has shown himself, in the opinion of the court, unfit to drive on the road, it seems fair that before he has the right to obtain a licence again he should give proof of his competence to drive. That is why we have advanced this rule.
  I know it may be argued that drivers are competent but irresponsible, but it seems to me to be plain that it is sometimes quite possible for gross irresponsibility to mask gross incompetence. Therefore, it does not seem to us to be too exacting to lay it down that anyone who has shown himself unfit to drive on the road should establish his fitness before being again allowed to do so. Those are the reasons why we have put this passage forward. If the noble Lord feels that it is not justified, of course he will say so. But we feel that there is here a question to be answered. A man has shown himself unfit or irresponsible. It is a serious matter. He has been deprived of his licence. Should he not be made to undergo a test before again being allowed to drive?
  EARL HOWE: I can understand the noble Earl's argument if it should be disclosed in the proceedings that the man had been guilty of very bad dangerous driving as well as of being drunk. But a mere test of itself does not prove anything at all. A fellow may easily pass a test. Indeed he would probably be able to do so easily enough if he was a driver of experience. He would show himself capable of making road signals, keeping his car in the right position on the road, and all that sort of thing. He would also show himself capable of carrying out the provisions of the Highway Code. All this, I suggest, would bear no relation whatsoever to the offence of which the man had been convicted. I am all for discretionary powers being given to the court in cases like this, to order a man to have a test if the proceedings disclose the necessity for it. But a test which is imposed automatically may prove nothing.
  LORD TEYNHAM: Surely the court should have discretion. That is really all that is required. It should not be laid down that it is necessary for a person who has been convicted of drunkenness and has had his licence taken away to pass a test, unless the court thinks there is a special reason for his doing so.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: According to this part of the Bill, a man who has been convicted of drunkenness and who has had his licence suspended then has to go through a test. It is in the discretion of the court whether his licence is suspended or not; therefore, in that sense, the court does have discretion. The only thing we are making automatic is that a man, having been disqualified, has then to undergo a test. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, says that the man may have carried out all the provisions of the Highway Code. I should be very surprised if a man were convicted of a highway offence if he had carried out all the provisions of the Highway Code.
  EARL HOWE: I meant that he is able to show a full knowledge of the Highway Code.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I submit that it is not a bad thing to remind oneself just what is in the Highway Code. The Highway Code is not intended to be more than a direction; it is not law. It is a broad indication to people to observe decent standards. If noble Lords feel strongly about this, I am ready to go into it, in order to see whether we can put it the other way round. As it is, we do not think it is unfair or unreasonable.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I appreciate very much the assurance given by the noble Earl. Perhaps at a later stage in the Bill we could deal with this point about the court's discretion to order a test or not, even if the man concerned has been disqualified. In view of the assurance given on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 15 agreed to.
  6.48 p.m.
  LORD BRABAZON OF TARA LORD BRABAZON OF TARA moved, after Clause 15 to insert the following new clause:
  ". In the Act of 1930, after paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section fifteen there shall be inserted the following proviso—
  "Provided that if on summary proceedings under this section the court or on proceedings
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  under this section on indictment the jury are satisfied that the accused, though under the influence of drink or a drug, had no intention of driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle, he shall not be liable to be convicted of the offence.""
  The noble Lord said: The Amendment which I have the honour to move refers to drunkenness, and I would preface my remarks my saying that I do not think there is anything more anti-social that anyone can do than drive a motor car when under the influence of drink. It is, to my mind, one of the most anti-social and dreadful things a person can do. The law as it stands is summed up in the Act of 1930, Section 15, which states that:
  "Any person who when driving or attempting to drive, or when in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place is under the influence of drink …"
  And then follow the usual penalties. What I want to do is to try to convince the Government that those words "when in charge of" are an incentive to someone to drive when drunk. There have been cases in which someone, having driven, for instance, to a dance, has realised that he has got drunk at the dance, and, very wisely, has refused to drive back. He has got into the back seat of his motor car, and thrown the ignition key away. Subsequently, he has been discovered by the police, and charged under this clause as being drunk in charge of the vehicle, although it was clearly evident that he had no intention of driving whatsoever. That is obviously a case in which a man could not have been worse treated if he had deliberately driven the vehicle home. There was another ridiculous case in which a man who was in his own house—and, after all, we are still entitled to get drunk in our own houses if we like—had left his car outside his front door. The police called on him about some parking offence he was committing. When he came out of his front door the policeman realised he was drunk, and, being drunk, he was still technically in charge of the motor car which was lying outside his house and would have remained there all night. That is a travesty of justice.
  I should have liked to see the words "or when in charge of" withdrawn, but I have been particularly lenient and have put down an Amendment which puts upon the accused the onus of showing that he had no intention of driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle; and

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  I am perfectly certain that if your Lordships agree to this, it will be well received, and it will certainly be equitable. I hope that whichever one of the triumvirate of noble Lords is going to reply to me, he will not take upon his shoulders the responsibility of encouraging people to drive when drunk, which is what he will be doing if he does not accept my Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 15, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Brabazon of Tara.)
  6.52 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before the noble Lord replies, I would underline what the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, has said. I do not think there is a more anti-social act which anybody can commit than to drive a motor car when under the influence of drink. If I had my way I would make no bones about it; nobody convicted of driving a motor vehicle when under the influence of drink would ever drive a motor vehicle again in his life. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, said, the present state of the law has been the cause of more foolishness than I suppose any other of the penalties in the road legislation.
  I will cite another case that would not be covered by the noble Lord's Amendment, and that is why I wanted to intervene. If the noble Lord is at all sympathetic, I hope he will find a better definition than Lord Brabazon of Tara has done, because I have a case in my mind where someone, realising that he was under the influence of drink, actually gave the policeman his ignition key and then repented of it and tried to open the locked door to get in; he was so drunk. He was brought up on a charge of being in charge of a car while under the influence of drink, because, although it was admitted that he had given up possession of the car by handing the policeman the ignition key, he was regaining possession in trying to open the door. Yet he did not get the key, and he could not get in without the key. What he had forgotten was to ask the constable to give him the key back. But he appeared on a charge of being drunk in charge because he was attempting to regain possession. The noble Lord's Amendment would not cover that case.
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  I hope the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, will give serious attention to this point. He has got to be very clever, I agree. As the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, said, if any of us feels—and there are many of us who can say that at times we have felt—that it would be better that our friend should drive the car home while we sat in the back, doing the sensible thing, as any sane man would do, we should still technically be guilty because we are in charge of that car. If the noble Lord can think of an Amendment—and by the nod of his head I feel he will be sympathetic—which will cover this point, he will have done a good thing to remove what is a very grave blot on justice at the present time.
  LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I take it that the object of Section 15 of the Act of 1930 was that a person in charge of a car should not be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to render him incapable of controlling the car. What his intentions were in regard to the car is regarded as immaterial by the section: he might, of course, have no intention of trying to drive the car, but in his drunken state he might knock the brake off and start it rolling downhill. If the noble Lord is feeling sympathetic towards this Amendment, I suggest that the Amendment as drafted is rather loosely phrased and is too wide. If anything of this sort is to be done I would suggest some wording to this effect:
  "Provided that if a person is charged with being in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle, then if on summary proceedings under this section the court, or on proceedings under this section on indictment, the jury, are satisfied that the accused, though under the influence of drink or drug, had no intention of driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle, he shall not be liable to be convicted of the offence."
  I should have thought that wording would be rather tighter and more to the point than that of the Amendment as proposed.
  LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I should like for a few moments to support this Amendment. Great increases in possible penalties have been put upon the motorist this afternoon. I hope Her Majesty's Government will now accept this Amendment which will to some extent lighten the burden.
  LORD SILKIN: My Lords, sitting here and listening to the debate I get the impression that the purpose of this debate is to make things easier for people who are drunk in charge of a car or who are driving recklessly. Every single Amendment since I have been here has been for the purpose of making the task of those in charge of the Bill more difficult. I hope the Government will take a rather firmer line in these matters and not give way.
  On this particular Amendment the test is not whether the person is in charge of a car but whether he is capable of doing damage. I cannot see how a person can really discharge the onus under this Amendment, by saying: "I had no intention of driving; I got in at the back. I admit that I was drunk, but I had no intention of driving." He may or may not have had. The only person who can really establish that is the person himself, and he comes into court perhaps two or three months later to say so. The court have only got his word. I cannot see what is the value of this Amendment anyway, because his unsupported word would not go very far. If he can show that he had made it impossible for him to drive the car, that is another matter. I imagine that if he could establish that today it would not be an offence, because if he could establish that, it might be a way of proving that he was not in charge of the car. Short of that, I hope the Government will not give way.
  If one takes the case mentioned by my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth, where the drunken person handed the ignition key to the policeman, I would have said that that was a clear case where he had rendered it impossible for him to drive the car. But if he had succeeded in getting it back, he would have made it possible for him to drive. So I should have thought the test was not his intention but whether he had rendered it impossible for him to drive the car. A man may have an intention one moment and then feel that he has got over it; and perhaps half an hour later he might start driving, though just as unfit to drive then as he was in the beginning.
  7.0 p.m.
  LORD MANCROFT: This is a very important matter. I think we are all agreed upon two things: first, that there is something not quite right about the
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  present state of the law upon the subject, and, secondly, that it is extremely difficult to draft the necessary improvement in the law. I should like to begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, for his very skilful attempt; but I also apologise at once to him for having to tell him that I think he has not wholly achieved what he wants to do. It may, however, console him to know that the Government want to do exactly what he wants to do. We have, therefore, to try to find some means of getting over this technical difficulty.
  We are agreed upon a third thing; that is, that the drunken driver is a menace and that it would be most undesirable to make any change in the present law which would make it more difficult for the police and the courts to deal with him. I think that in this case we should be quite right if we erred on the side of strictness. For these reasons it is essential that Section 15 of the 1930 Act, to which the noble Lord has referred, should cover the person in charge of a motor vehicle on the road who is under the influence of drink or a drug unless it is quite clear that he had not been driving whilst unfit and that he had no intention of doing so. It lays an obligation on anybody in charge of a potentially dangerous instrument to take care that he is in a fit state to use that instrument or to put himself in such a position that he cannot use it.
  The words "in charge of" in Section 15, as your Lordships now appreciate, are, however, very wide, and as the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, has reminded us, both on Second Reading and in his speech to-day, there have been cases which have led to convictions of being "drunk in charge" when by common consent the offender had not driven, or could not possibly have been driving, the vehicle. That is the sort of case with which we are trying to cope. It is clear, however, that it is a difficult matter to draft a provision for those cases to which the noble Lord has referred without letting out cases which ought not to be let out or creating further, and possibly worse, anomalies.
  The clause which the noble Lord has so ingeniously drafted is a little too wide, I submit. It does not cover one point which it would seem ought to be covered—namely, that the person charged must not have driven under the influence of

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  drink; and even if this point were disposed of, there is the further difficulty of whether a provision can really be acceptable which rests wholly upon the mere existence of an intention on the part of a person charged not to drive whilst under the influence of drink or a drug. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has raised a problem which has been a subject of argument time and time again—namely, how to deal with a man who admits that he is not fit to drive. He has the sense and sobriety left in him to draw into the side of the road, and he drops asleep, either in the front or the back of the car; then he wakes up and, though he is fuddled, thinks he is a good deal more sober than he is, drives away and has an accident. There is also the case of the man who misguidedly has "one for the road," waits a bit and, thinking that he is sober enough to drive, gets in, drives off and has an accident.
  The new clause which the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, has drafted ought to cover these points. I should like to help the noble Lord in any way possible to meet our common desire, and I think we should include certain provisions. We shall have to take care in drafting these provisions that a motorist should satisfy the court that he had not driven a vehicle whilst unfit to do so, and that the circumstances of the case were such as to provide corroboration of his intention of not driving whilst unfit. That would meet the point which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, made. It will be difficult to find words to cover these points, and I must confess that we have tried our hands at drafting such a provision, and have not been so successful as the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara.
  I readily admit that the Government agree with the main object of what he is
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  trying to do. We shall put the service of the draftsman at the noble Lord's disposal to see whether we cannot together produce something that will meet the noble Lord's point and, at the same time, include the extra safeguards which I hope noble Lords will agree ought to be included in this clause, if it is not to open the way for more anomalies for the court than already exist. It is important to try to meet the noble Lord's point and stop these ridiculous cases which he has rightly put before the Committee. Equally, we must maintain the principle that anyone who drives under the influence of drink is committing an offence of very great seriousness; the law must continue to express its contempt for people who so drive.
  LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: I hope the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, will not remain without sleep to-night for having partially accepted an Amendment. I gratefully accept his proposal that we should have another attempt at drafting something satisfactory, but when we look at Clause 16, which is about the biggest gibberish in any Act of Parliament, I do not think we shall get a great deal of help there. But with my sage experience, perhaps we may get something and we might have another attempt on Report stage. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  House resumed.

  TRUSTEE SAVINGS BANKS (PENSIONS) BILL
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
  House adjourned at eight minutes past seven o'clock.