Sitting of 15 February 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BRITISH ARMY

    Sandhurst Cadets
    Mr. M. Stewartasked the Secretary of State for War what changes are pro posed in the conditions of entry to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head): None, except that entrants will now do 13 weeks as other ranks at Sandhurst instead of 10 weeks at the training unit of their Arm.
    Mr. Stewart:Does that mean that cadets will enter Sandhurst without having had previous experience in the ranks elsewhere?
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir. The cadets will have passed into Sandhurst by both examination and interview, and they will go straight to Sandhurst, thereby avoiding a considerable waste of time.
    Mr. Wigg: Is this in accordance with the Guards' tradition that the officers and other ranks must be completely separated?
    Mr. Head: No, Sir, it is not at all. It is in the tradition of avoiding waste of time and of increasing efficiency.
    Mr. Ede:What is the nature of the examination?
    Mr. Head:I should like notice of that question, but I can give the right hon. Gentleman a set of the papers if he so desires.

    Hospitals (Improvements)
    Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for War whether the proposals to spend £15 million over the next three
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    years in building and modernising bar-racks include the building and modernising of military hospitals.
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir. As a start, improvements at the Millbank Military Hospital and the Cowglen Military Hospital are planned.
    Mr. Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will be very greatly welcomed, as it is 50 years since a military hospital was built in this country? I believe it is true that many of our military hospitals are below existing civilian standards.
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir. There is a lot to be done about military hospitals.

    Casualties (Personal Effects)
    Mr. Shurmerasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the delay in the return to the next of kin of personal possessions of men killed in accidents, which causes distress to those concerned; and if he will take steps to hasten the return of these personal effects.
    Mr. Head: Legal processes sometimes delay the release of effects, but I know of no general delay. If the hon. Member will let me know of any particular case, I will look into it.
    Mr. Shurmer: Is the Minister aware that I have recently had the case of a young soldier who was killed in a motor cycle accident within 50 miles of Birmingham and it took more than two months for the boy's effects to be returned, which opened up an old sore for his parents? I have known cases in the past in which it has taken four, five or six months for effects to be returned from abroad. Surely the right hon. Gentleman can hurry up the process of returning effects to parents and relatives, because it causes distress and grief if there are long delays.
    Mr. Head: I will certainly look into a particular case. However, very often a soldier dies without a will and the next of kin is not automatically the recipient of his personal belongings. This sometimes entails delay.

    Press Photographs (Sentries)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that sentries on duty at Buckingham Palace, the Tower of London and the

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    Horse Guards are being exploited by Press photographers for advertising purposes; and what action he will take to prevent their exploitation.
    Mr. Head: The inclusion of sentries in photographs used for advertising purposes is not a legal offence, nor is it necessarily objectionable, always provided reasonable good taste and discretion are shown.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is there no way of preventing the use of sentries as the stooges of any flibbertigibbet coming over here from Hollywood to boost herself in pictures? Does he not consider their antics and posturings, deliberately contrived by film publicity executives, to be in execrable taste? Will he do something about it?
    Mr. Head: Without putting another sentry in front of the sentry to keep these people away, I do not know what we should do.
    Mr. Nicholson: Have any of the sentries complained about flibbertigibbets fraternising with them?
    Mr. Head: I have not heard any complaints, nor do I know about the flibbertigibbets.

    Personal Case
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet completed his inquiry into the circumstances under which the late 22800623 Private L. Harrison arrived home from Egypt so ill that he had to enter hospital immediately and subsequently died.
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir. The hon. Member will now have received a letter from my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Jeger: Can the Minister say why it has taken five months for him to complete his inquiries into this very distressing case?
    Mr. Head:After the man returned home, he developed signs of a tumour on the brain. With the hospital, we went carefully into the question whether the tumour could have been diagnosed before he returned home, but I think the hon. Member will be satisfied that that was not the case.

    New Rifle
    Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for War when he expects to get the results of troop trials of the new rifle adopted for use in the British Army.
    Mr. Head: By the end of the summer.
    Mr. Wyatt:Is not it extraordinary that, over a year after we were promised by the Government that this rifle would go into immediate production, the Government have not yet made up their mind whether they would like a telescopic sight or an open aperture sight, and other simple matters like that? Is not it the case that the rifle has been redrawn in inches and so, consequently, when it is made it will not be standardised even with the Belgian rifle? Will not it then have to go through troop trials again, and is not it true that there will be no standardisation with any country in the world?
    Mr. Head: The hon. Gentleman seems to have enjoyed the trip which I arranged for him to Warminster.
    Mr. Wyatt: It was of value.
    Mr. Head: The Government never said that this rifle was going into immediate production. The whole point about troop trials is to ensure that the rifle is tried out under every kind of conditions before we go into production, so as to avoid the necessity for subsequent modification.
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War how many Fabrique Nationale rifles are in use in the Army; and how many are of British manufacture.
    Mr. Head: Five thousand have been ordered for troop trials, most of which have already been issued. British production will not start until troop trials have been completed.
    Mr. Wigg: Will the right hon. Gentle-man consider whether these rifles may be maintained by the men in the barrack rooms, because the only way in which a man can learn to get the feel of a rifle is by having it constantly with him? Would not the right hon. Gentleman accept that there can be no security consideration which causes these rifles to be locked up?
    Mr. Head: I will certainly consider that suggestion.
    Mr. Strachey: Will not the Secretary of State agree that there have been extraordinary delays with this rifle and that the constant change in technical detail which is going on is one more instance of the necessity for standardisation on a particular weapon in our whole defence programme? Is not the present position rather disturbing?
    Mr. Head:We have decided that for this rifle. What we are doing now is to have troop trials thoroughly, because by experience it has been found that if we rush into production and find difficulties subsequently, we get into trouble. I would point out that these troop trials' have been carried out very much more quickly than in any previous instance.
    Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. Wyatt: On a point of order. I have not had an answer to my last supplementary question. May I put it again?
    Mr. Speaker:The supplementary question asked by the hon. Member was a rather lengthy one. If all the points in it were not covered by the answer, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down another Question containing those points.
    Mr. Wyatt: Further to that point of order. I understand the anxiety of the Government not to answer my supplementary question, but surely I have a right to put a supplementary question and, if it is asked, surely I am entitled to obtain an answer.
    Mr. Speaker: I have to try to ration the time between hon. Members. There are other hon. Members with Questions besides the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) who took advantage of his opportunity to ask a supplementary question to ask a rather lengthy one.
    Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for War when he expects the new rifle, adopted for service, to be in general issue to the British Army.
    Mr. Head: This depends on a number of factors, and it is too early to make a definite forecast.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is not the Minister aware that the British rifle, which he abandoned, would have been in full production by now? Is he further aware that last year he said that by adopting the Belgian rifle
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    we should gain a year in production, which evidently is not the case? Is it not the case that the new rifle which the British Army will have is now being remodelled in inches measurements and not on the Continental metric system and that consequently there will have to be further troop trials when it is finished and also—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—is it not the case that the claim the Government made that they had to have this rifle because of standardisation with other countries will never be fulfilled?
    Mr. Head: This rifle is standardised with Canada. [Interruption.] For that very good reason it is being re-measured in inches, in order to gain standardisation with Canada. There is a good chance that this rifle will be taken up by the United States. The Government have always said that the standardisation of rifles with outside sources of production was a major consideration in atomic and, now, in thermo-nuclear war, and I believe that this decision has been proved more than ever right by events.
    Mr. Strachey:Is not the Secretary of State going to tell us anything about the continued modification of this weapon which is clearly delaying its introduction from year to year? After all, it is four years since the original decisions were taken. He first reversed those decisions and went for a different rifle, because he said it was more rapid. We now find that nothing has been introduced. Is this Government incapable of bringing any new weapon into service?
    Mr. Head: The right hon. Gentleman is entirely misinforming and misleading the House. No decision was taken four years ago and, when I ventured to suggest that he himself had considered a decision, he flatly denied it in this House. Four years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman was in office, he flatly denied it—I say it again. This decision was taken because it was considered to be a sensible thing to do to gain standardisation. No rifle has ever been introduced without troop trials—it would be crazy to do so. What the right hon. Gentleman refers to as constant modifications are nothing to do with that. They are entirely concerned with completing the troop trials and combining all modifications at one time.
    Mr. Strachey: The right hon. Gentleman has accused me of misleading the

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    House. That is a serious accusation. Is the right hon. Gentleman denying that the previous Government adopted, not this rifle, but what we are still convinced was a superior rifle of British manufacture? Is he denying that that decision was made and that these trials, which go on and on, all stem from the reversal by the present Government of that decision?
    Mr. Head: A decision was never made by the late Government, no decision to go into production—
    Mr. Wyatt: That is a lie.
    Mr. Head: —was ever made, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it.
    Captain Pilkington: On a point of order. An hon. Member opposite used the word "lie." Is not that a very un-parliamentary expression?
    Mr. Speaker: I did not hear it because of the noise which was going on. But if any hon. Member used that un-Parliamentary expression, it is his duty to withdraw it.
    Mr. Wyatt:What is one to do in these circumstances—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I have a point of order to put to you. Sir. The Secretary of State said that the Labour Government never made a decision to go ahead with the British rifle. That, Sir, is a lie, and what am I to call it?
    Mr. Speaker:I am not concerned with the facts of this dispute. I am concerned only with the language used in this House, and the word "lie" is an un-Parliamentary expression. If the hon. Member used it, I ask him to withdraw it.
    Mr. Wyatt: May I withdraw that expression and substitute "It is 100 per cent, inaccurate"?
    Mr. Head:I would follow that by saying that if my predecessor as Secretary of State for War wishes to reaffirm that his Government gave orders to go into active production, will he say so now?
    Mr. Strachey—
    Mr. Speaker: I would call the attention of the House to the fact that we have only reached Question No. 17.
    Mr. Wigg: As my right hon. Friend is directly challenged, surely it is in accordance with the traditions of the House—
    Mr. Speaker: I did not say that I was not going to call the right hon. Gentleman. I was on my own feet when he rose.
    Mr. Strachey: The position is well known to the House.
    Mr. Nabarro: Question.
    Mr. Strachey: The position is well known to the House. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that the late Government decided upon the British rifle; made all plans to go into the production of that rifle, and that those plans would long ago have been carried out if the Labour Government had remained in office?
    Mr. Head: I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman—whose memory seems to have failed him—that although this was a project at the time, it was put into the "pending" tray because of the objections raised by the Opposition, especially by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
    Mr. Callaghan: Apart from the Secretary of State trying to foist his own failures upon my right hon. Friend, will he please tell us why it is that a year after he said that the Government were going into production of their rifle—which they claim they have standardised—it is still not in production?
    Mr. Head: It is because at the time of the decision we knew that troop trials would take at least a year.

    Rented W.D. Premises (Licences)
    Mr. Royleasked the Secretary of State for War if he will examine the position of his Department's premises which are exempt from licensing by virtue of Section 164 (2) (k) of the Licensing Act, 1953, to ensure that persons renting these premises for dances etc., shall not have unlimited licence for the sale of liquor.
    Mr. Head: We never give unlimited licence to outside bodies.
    Mr. Royle: Is not it a fact that people can hire a drill hall from the military authorities for the purpose of holding a dance which can continue through the night, taking advantage of the conditions which apply? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I should be happy to send him instances of this and that I should be glad if he would inquire into the matter?
    Mr. Head: I should be interested to see the instances, but this is not in any way by our consent and is illegal. We have never given such licences.

    Mess Dress
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War what authorisation he has given for the use of mess kit; how far the order will apply equally to both Regular and National Service officers; what is the estimated average cost per officer; and what part of the cost will be borne by public funds.
    Mr. Head: Regular officers only may wear mess dress if they want to. A new mess jacket and waistcoat costs about £35 and no part of the cost is borne by public funds.
    Mr. Wigg:May I take it that officers can please themselves whether they acquire this mess dress or not, and that there is no degree of compulsion?
    Mr. Head: There is no degree of compulsion whatever.

    Anti-Aircraft Command
    Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for War when he expects to be in a position to make a further statement about the future of units in Anti-Aircraft Command.
    Mr. Head:When the decision to reduce Anti-Aircraft Command was made, immediate discussions were started between the War Office, Anti-Aircraft Command, Home Commands and Territorial Army Associations to consider the many and conflicting claims of Territorial units regarding survival, amalgamation or alternative roles. Because very many of these units had long traditions and strong claims for survival, particular trouble was taken to ensure fairness to all and, consequently, discussions have taken some time. We are trying to preserve the identity of as many regiments as possible, but of necessity a considerable number will have to be disbanded. The full plan is almost completed, and I hope to be able to make a statement very shortly.
    Mr. Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we shall look forward to the future statement with great interest, because at present many of the Territorial units are rather concerned about their future, which is having a bad effect not
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    only on the morale of existing Territorials but on future recruitment?
    Mr. Head:Yes, I am aware of that, and I am glad, too, that the keenness of the Territorial Army is evinced by the very strong letters which I have received on this subject.
    Mr. Bellenger: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what are the numbers involved in this switch-over? I had hoped that he might have answered this Question with Question No. 6, on the same subject, which I did not hear Mr. Speaker call.
    Mr. Head: The right hon. Gentleman is trying to anticipate a Question which he put down but missed. The numbers show that about 30 per cent., by and large, will remain in their previous role, and the remainder will all be affected.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Will my right hon. Friend allow the regiments on which a decision has definitely been taken to know the result without waiting until the final list is complete?
    Mr. Head:I thought very carefully about that but, on the whole, I believe that such a step would be unwise. If this information is let out piecemeal, those who know at once may feel pleased but others may well be aggrieved. Therefore, we have decided to make the release simultaneously.
    Mr. Wigg: If the Government find that they will not require the part-time service of National Service men as a result of this change, will they introduce a Measure to amend the National Service Act?
    Mr. Head:The question of part-time service needs no amendment to the National Service Act, as the period of part-time service is purely at the discretion of the Government.

    Pensions Administration (Reorganisation)
    Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for War when the machinery for awarding Army pensions was last reviewed.
    Mr. Head: We have decided to reorganise the machinery for awarding Army pensions. This will be done by setting up an Army Pensions Office to

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    deal with all awards of Army pensions, including soldiers' pensions at present the responsibility of the Commissioners of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, officers' retired pay, Army family pensions and civilian superannuation. I think that it will be more efficient and economical in administration to bring them all together in one office. The Commissioners will remain responsible for the administration of the Royal Hospital and the welfare of pensioners living there. An Order to give effect to certain of these changes will shortly be laid before both Houses of Parliament.
    Mr. Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this statement will be very much welcomed as one leading not only to economy but, we hope, to increased efficiency?

    National Service
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for War what is his estimate of the financial saving in his Department which would result from reducing the National Service period by six months.
    Mr. Head: About £25 million a year.
    Mr. Swingler: To save time and to increase efficiency, quite apart from fulfilling pledges given, will the right hon. Gentleman now consider making this saving?
    Mr. Head: I know of no pledge. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is talking about.
    Mr. Swingler:Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the pledge given in 1950, when National Service was increased to two years, that this was purely a temporary measure, although it has now been going on for over four years? Will the right hon. Gentleman urgently consider reducing the period of National Service?
    Mr. Head: The Government stated last year, and we state again now, that it is our object and policy to reduce National Service by as much as possible as soon as possible but that depends on events, and events at present do not allow that it should be reduced by six months.
    Mr. Callaghan: Do the Government regard themselves as bound by the pledge given in 1950 that the increase from 18 months to two years was in respect of
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    the Korean war and for a temporary period only and, if so, when does the right hon. Gentleman propose to give effect to it?
    Mr. Head: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that that pledge was given about the Korean war and that nothing has happened since, all I can say is that he has not been studying the general strategic situation very much.
    Mr. Strachey: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recall that that pledge was given quite clearly about the Korean war? Is he now going to plead the Government's failure to get Regular recruits as a reason for refusing to reduce the period of National Service?
    Mr. Head:This has practically nothing to do with Regular recruiting. Regular recruiting has remained perfectly steady for the last three years. The reasons for the present period of National Service are the general situation overseas, our commitments in Europe and our desire to balance the Army's general structure by creating a strategic reserve.

    Extended Service Engagements
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for War his latest estimate of the proportion of men originally volunteering for a three-year engagement with the Colours who are extending their period of service.
    Mr. Head: By May, as a result of a special examination, we shall know how many of the men enlisted between 1st November,1951, and 31st March, 1952, have decided to prolong their service. In the meantime, we cannot make any reliable estimate because, without this special inquiry, it is impossible to relate the prolongations so far recorded to the dates of enlistment.
    Mr. Swingler:The right hon. Gentleman is aware of the number of men who signed on for three years over three years ago. Why is it not possible, taking, for example, the men who signed on between October and December of 1951, to discover what proportion has decided to pro-long the period of service, which would give some indication of the number likely to do so in the future and the possibility of fulfilling the Minister's hope?
    Mr. Head: First, the period did not start in October. It did not start until November. Secondly, and more important, it is impossible by our present system of statistics to tell whether a man who has prolonged was one within the November, December, January period, or whether he is a man on a three-year engagement who has prolonged his engagement earlier. It can be done in any period within the three-year engagement.
    Mr. Bellenger: May I ask whether it is a fact that a man has to give six months' notice of his intention to prolong his service?
    Mr. Head: Yes, Sir, that is entirely the case, but that is with the 22-year engagement which started in May, 1952.
    Mr. Wigg:On a point of order. The right hon. Gentleman, unwittingly or not, has grossly misled the House. Is it not a fact that a soldier does not have to give notice to prolong his engagement but if he wishes to go out?
    Mr. Head: I am sorry; I was answering in the terms of the supplementary question. A man who decides not to go on and who has engaged on a 22-year engagement must give notice that he does not wish to go on six months before. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly correct, and I am obliged to him.
    Mr. Bellenger:The right hon. Gentleman himself is very interested in this matter, as he introduced this short period engagement to try to get recruits. Surely he can take the House a little more into his confidence and tell us what information he has? If it is not three months, that is to say, from October to December, surely he can tell us what has happened between November and December, 1951?
    Mr. Head: I should like to take the House fully into my confidence; it is a matter of great interest to me and to the whole House. The point is that any man who joins on a three-year engagement can prolong it at any time. Without the special inquiry to which I referred, there is no way of telling whether it is a man in the November, December, January period or whether it is a man who joined on a three-year engagement between November, 1951, and now. The figures would have to be specially separated and analysed for those particular periods.

    Nutrition Adviser (Press Advertisement)
    Mr. Wiggasked the Secretary of State for War why he required that candidates should have qualifications recognised by the British Dietetic Association in his advertisement in "The Times" for a nutrition adviser; why he did not consult the Nutrition Society before authorising this advertisement; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Head: A qualification recognised by the British Dietetic Association was considered essential. I understand that the Nutrition Society are not concerned with prescribing qualifications in this field.
    Mr. Wigg:Did the right hon. Gentle-man personally approve the terms of this advertisement? Is he aware that, although he advertised for a man or woman, the qualifications of the British Dietetic Association apply only to women? Is he further aware that he asked for a qualified graduate in nutrition; that the only course in a British university for nutrition started two years ago and that there will not be any graduates until 1956?
    Mr. Head: This qualification is given only by the British Dietetic Association. It is open to both men and women, and it is a fact that so far only women have qualified. But I have no objection at all to taking on a woman in this post, because I think there is every chance that a woman would do the job as well as a man.
    Mr. Wigg:But will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question? He requires a qualified graduate in nutrition and he cannot possibly get one until 1956. Why, therefore, waste public money by advertising in "The Times" last Tuesday?
    Mr. Head: I am informed that there are other ladies who are qualified in this respect.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Imported Shirts (Marking)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade why foreign manufacturers of men's woven shirts are allowed to import these into this country

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    without any mark of origin, whereas women's woven garments and men's knitted shirts have to be marked with the country of origin.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Henry Strauss): Orders in Council—
    Mr. Callaghan: No aircraft; no rifles.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I would point out to the House that we are now dealing with the subject of men's woven shirts.
    Mr. Strauss: Orders in Council have been made under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926, requiring imported women's woven outerwear and men's knitted shirts to be marked with an indication of origin. No such order has been made in respect of imported men's woven shirts because there has been no recommendation for such an order from the appropriate Standing Committee appointed under the Act.
    Miss Burton:Does not the Parliamentary Secretary think that it would be a good thing if the Board of Trade were to do something without first having to be prodded by the Opposition? Will not he take steps to recommend that men's woven shirts are thus designated, in view of the increasing exports from the Far East?
    Mr. Strauss: I would recommend the hon. Lady to look at the terms of Section 2 (3) of the Act. She will find that the Board of Trade has no power to refer this matter to the Committee until an application is made to it to do so. If an application is made, we shall take the necessary steps.
    Mr. Follick: On a point of order. Would I be in order to point out a grammatical mistake in the Minister's supplementary reply?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Can the Parliamentary Secretary explain the reason for this extraordinary discrimination between the sexes?
    Mr. Strauss: I have explained that no application has been made to the Board of Trade to refer this matter to the Committee. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the Section of the Act to which I have referred, he will see that a request has to be made. He can make as good a guess as I why no such request has been made.

    Exports to U.S.S.R. (Strategic List)
    Mr. Pageasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, pending agreement upon a revised strategic list relating to shipbuilding for the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, he is satisfied that Western European countries and Japan are observing the restrictions of the present strategic list; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Strauss: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir." On the general question, my right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Page:Can my hon. and learned Friend confirm or otherwise the reports that ships built in Western Germany for Soviet Russia are exceeding the limit laid down under the strategic list? Secondly, can he say whether new arrangements are on foot for a meeting of the countries concerned to revise this strategic list?
    Mr. Strauss:If my hon. Friend is referring to the ship which he recently mentioned in a question, I am advised that that ship was not of a kind to be subject to the embargo. Questions upon ships, however, should be addressed to the First Lord of the Admiralty.
    Mr. H. Wilson:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when a Question was put to the First Lord of the Admiralty he said that we must ask the Board of Trade? Will the hon. and learnedGentleman—who seems to be the only Member in the House who is not aware of what is going on in Germany—tell the House when we can expect to get some changes made in the strategic list for ships? It was on 26th July last that the President of the Board of Trade said that agreement had not yet been reached. Now, seven months later, will the hon. and learned Gentle-man tell us whether discussions are even proceeding?
    Mr. Strauss: I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I think he will see that the Question in regard to which my hon. Friend was advised to question the Board of Trade was a different one. As regards the strategic list, I have nothing to add to my original answer.

    Price Maintenance and Conditions of Sale
    Mr. G. Darlingasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take steps to provide for the compulsory registration of all trade agreements covering price-fixing, allocation of quotas or con-tracts, and collective decisions on new inventions, and to require the regular publication of activities resulting from such agreements.
    Mr. H. Strauss: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton) on 8th February, 1955.
    Mr. Darling: I have seen that answer, but surely the President of the Board of Trade does not need to hide behind the Monopolies Commission in this matter? Does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that it would be a good idea to get registration, whatever the Monopolies Commission may report? Does not he agree that we can deal better with these restrictive practices in industry if we know their extent, and how they operate?
    Mr. Strauss: The question of registration was considered when the original Act was passed. I think that the hon. Member is well aware of the importance of the Section 15 inquiry which is now taking place into what can be described as exclusive dealing and collective boycott. I am sure that the House will be well advised to await that report, which is expected this summer, before deciding what legislation should be introduced.
    Mr. H. Wilson:Instead of sheltering behind irrelevant references to the Monopolies Commission, as my hon. Friend has said, will the hon. and learned Gentleman take note of the fact that that reference has nothing to do with the registration of these price-fixing arrangements? That reference strictly related to certain practices of the kind he mentioned, and not at all to the question of registration.
    Mr. Strauss: I tried to explain to the right hon. Gentleman that the question of registration was considered and rejected at the time the statute was passed. What I am saying is that, before embarking upon further legislation dealing with monopolies, the House should certainly await the report which the Commission will make upon the most important reference to it, under Section 15 of the Act.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Why does the Parliamentary Secretary continually confuse two quite distinct things? We all appreciate that there is a reference to the Com-mission whether certain restrictive practices should be banned, but my hon. Friend's question does not relate to that. It relates to the publication and registration of trade agreements. What conceivable reason is there against full publicity in this matter?
    Mr. Strauss: Exactly the same difficulties and objections exist as existed when the right hon. Gentleman's own Government introduced the original Act. At that time this question was considered and—for good reasons, in the view of both main parties in the House—was rejected. If there were time to debate the question, I could mention many difficulties which arise in relation to the proposal.

    Transit of Animals (Monkeys)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that 394 monkeys out of a total consignment of 1,600 were found to have died from suffocation while in London en route from Delhi to the United States of America; and, in view of the fact that these are required solely for the purposes of experiments by vivisection, whether he will prohibit importation of these and other animals to avoid further such incidents.
    Mr. H. Strauss:My right hon. Friend deplores what happened in this case, but does not think that import restrictions would be an appropriate method of dealing with these problems.
    Mr. Freeman: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that over 1,000 monkeys died en route from India to this country last year, that most of them were female monkeys which had babies on the way, and that both babies and mothers died? Will he consider if some action could be taken to stop this abominable traffic, which is going on in such large numbers?
    Mr. Strauss: I do not think this problem could properly be dealt with by restrictions on transhipment. Of course, I sympathise with what prompted the Question by the hon. Member, but I think that this matter is really better dealt with under the Protection of Animals Act than under import or transhipment restrictions

    Merchandise Marks Acts (Prosecution)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make a statement concerning the result of the proceedings taken by his Department under the Merchandise Marks Acts on the matter of the dress purchased by Mrs. Green at Weston-super-Mare, details of which were sup-plied to him by the hon. Member for Coventry, South, on 26th October last.
    Mr. H. Strauss: I cannot yet add to my letter to the hon. Member of 31st January, 1955. The case is still sub judice.
    Miss Burton: I am aware that it would be improper of me to refer to a case which is sub judice, but may I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if it would not be advisable to ensure that cases are not lost because of insufficient technical information being given to the magistrates? Would it not be a good idea for the Board of Trade to assure the House that they will employ permanent counsel on all these matters wherever the cases are heard? What is the use of our giving cases to the Board of Trade if the Board of Trade lose them?
    Mr. Strauss: I do not agree at all with the implications of what the hon. Lady has said. She really must not press me to comment on a case which is sub judice. I appreciate her interest in this case, and I will write to her as soon as I can.
    Mr. Speaker: If the case is sub judice, I do not see that questions can be asked about it.
    Miss Burton:With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I was not referring to this case. I was asking the Parliamentary Secretary if the Board of Trade would give an assurance to the House that they would employ permanent counsel on all these cases which are brought under these Acts, irrespective of where these cases are heard?
    Mr. Strauss: If the hon. Lady wants an answer to that question, she had better put it down on the Order Paper. I do not think the House will suspect me of having any prejudice against the employment of counsel, but I must dissociate myself from the implications of the
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    hon. Lady's original supplementary question.
    Miss Burton: I will certainly put it down.

    Hong Kong (Textile Exports)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the growing disquiet among manufacturers in this country concerning textile exports from Hong Kong; and what action is proposed to deal with the copying of British patents and British brand names.
    Mr. H. Strauss: Some anxiety has been expressed about competition from exports of certain low-priced textiles from Hong Kong. The few cases of copying known to my right hon. Friend have been effectively dealt with under existing Acts.
    Miss Burton: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this is a further example of what we on this side of the House have found—that the Board of Trade only try to deal with these cases after they have happened? Is the hon. and learned Gentleman going to take any action to defend our manufacturers as far as Hong Kong is concerned?
    Mr. Strauss: The hon. Lady is well aware that it is not the policy of H.M. Government to restrict imports from the Colonies by quotas or tariffs.

    Additional Circuit Cinemas
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the President of the Board of Trade what applications he has received, under Section 5 of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1948, from proprietors of cinema circuits for permission to acquire additional cinemas; and what answer he has given to those applications.
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the President of the Board of Trade what applications he has received from large cinema-owning circuits for approval of proposals to acquire additional cinemas.
    Mr. H. Strauss: The Rank Organisation and the Associated British Picture Corporation have been told that the Board of Trade will not use their powers under the Section to prevent either from acquiring up to 607 cinemas.
    Mr. Wilson: Is not that a most scandalous announcement by the Parliamentary Secretary? In the first place, will he not agree that this will defeat a great part of the film policy of both the last Governments in this matter and will put the independent producers more and more in the hands of the big circuits? Secondly, since this matter is controlled by statute, and was controlled by a gentleman's agreement initiated by the late Sir Stafford Cripps, does he not consider that he ought to have come along to the House quite honestly and informed the House of a big change of policy, without our having to wait to get it out of him by means of Questions?
    Mr. Strauss: The right hon. Gentleman is entirely mistaken in thinking that there has been any change of policy. If he will refer to the correspondence of about 11 years ago— [Interruption.] Yes, 11 years ago, because that was what the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. If he does so, he will find that the maximum prescribed was something less than 607. That is where the figure 607 comes from, and we are allowing the circuits to rise to that number. Perhaps, as the right hon. Gentleman says there has been a change of policy, I may remind him of what he said to the House in speaking on this Section. This is what he said:
    "These paragraphs confer a fairly wide power on the Board of Trade. I recognise that that is so and that it is one which could in theory be used in a restrictive way. I give the assurance that I have no intention of using it except for the strictly limited purpose of holding the balance even between the large circuits." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd February, 1948; Vol. 446, c. 1736.]
    There has been no change of policy.
    Mr. Wilson: Since I said that there was no change of policy, because the policy was laid down, not in 1948 but in 1946 by the late Sir Stafford Cripps, is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that that policy stated that there would be no increase permitted above the then level of cinema holdings for large circuits?
    Mr. Strauss: The matters are dealt with by this Section of the Act, and it is this Section on which we will rely and on which the large circuits have approached us. For the reasons I have given, there is no change in policy between what was announced by the right hon. Gentleman
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    the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) at the time I mentioned and the policy now being adopted.
    Mr. Jeger:Does not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it is scandalous, because more and more of these independent cinemas may fall into this semi-monopolistic control, which debars independent producers from having guaranteed exhibition of the films they make? Since most are British quota films, is it not therefore a pro-American film policy, directed against the interests of British film producers?
    Mr. Strauss: No; on the contrary, what I have announced is likely to be in the interests of independent British producers, who require large circuits for their bookings. The hon. Member assumes that all these cinemas are being acquired from somebody else, but they may be newly-built cinemas or war-damaged premises repaired.

    Anglo-Czechoslovakian Trade (Textiles)
    Dr. Strossasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that textile orders from Czechoslovakia are in abeyance pending the resumption of licences for the import of consumer goods from that country; and whether he will take steps to admit these imports.
    Mr. H. Strauss:Some purchases of textiles have been made by a Czechoslovak purchasing organisation, but my right hon. Friend is not aware to what extent further purchases would be made if import licences for Czechoslovak consumer goods could be resumed. The issue of such licences must await the conclusion of a trade and financial agreement on which negotiations have, unfortunately, been in suspense for some time.
    Dr. Stross: If I send information to the Parliamentary Secretary showing that the goods in supply would be to the value of about £500,000, which is a reasonable amount of money for the West Riding of Yorkshire, will he give the matter further consideration, especially in view of the fact that licences might well come from Western Germany if we do not offer them?
    Mr. Strauss: My right hon. Friend will certainly consider anything that the hon. Member sends him. Meanwhile, I

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    should like to refer the hon. Gentleman to an article on the subject in the "Board of Trade Journal" for 5th February, 1955, which gives an explanation of our policy on this matter.
    Mr. Robens: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman say if negotiations with Czechoslovakia are still continuing and when he expects that an agreement will be signed?
    Mr. Strauss: No; there are difficulties. The article to which I have referred the hon. Member explains that we restricted imports of less essentials, including consumer goods, except in the context of an agreement which includes the settlement of financial claims.

    British and American Films (Dollars)
    Mr. F. M. Bennettasked the President of the Board of Trade how many dollars have been earned by the exhibition of British films in the United States of America during 1952, 1953, and 1954; and how many dollars have been expended by this country in the same periods for United States films exhibited here.
    Mr. H. Strauss: No reliable figures are available of dollars earned in the United States from the exhibition of British films. The figures asked for in the second part of the Question are $24·16 million, $22·68 million and $25·2 million.
    Mr. Bennett: I am afraid that because of the laughter from the Opposition side of the House I did not hear a single word of the Minister's answer.
    Mr. Strauss: Shall I repeat it?
    Hon. Members: No.
    Mr. Speaker: I do ask the House to keep some order in this matter.
    Mr. Strauss: I said that no reliable figures are available of dollars earned in the United States from the exhibition of British films. The figures asked for in the second part of the Question are $24·16 million, $22·68 million and $25·2 million.
    Mr. Bennett: While awaiting any more figures that may be given, would not my hon. and learned Friend confirm that we earned far fewer dollars in the United States than we paid out to the United States in that period? If my assumption
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    is correct, may I ask whether it is not time to expect some reasonable reciprocity in this matter?
    Mr. Strauss: I should be happy to explain to my hon. Friend why the figures are not available. I certainly agree with him that we desire all possible facilities for British films in the United States, but I do not think, when my hon. Friend considers the relative sizes of the two industries, that he can expect exact correspondence.

    Import Duties
    Mr. P. Wellsasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent the motor vehicles, textiles, shipbuilding, agricultural machinery, and furniture trades are protected by tariffs.
    Mr. H. Strauss:Since the import duties on the products of each of these industries cover so wide a range of goods, I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the customs tariff, flagged for easy reference to the relevant items.
    Mr. Wells: Is the hon. and learned Member aware that considerable protection is afforded to these industries, which of course puts up the price to the domestic.consumer? In view of that fact, does he not think that the frequent jibe that farmers are unfairly subsidised and protected is rather unjustified?
    Mr. Strauss:I had better confine myself to the Question which the hon. Member thought fit to put upon the Paper. I would remind him that import duties are not charged on industries but on particular products.

    Screw Threads
    Mr. Mitchisonasked the President of the Board of Trade how many standard types of screw thread are in manufacture and in common use in this country; how many of those types are in common use abroad; and what steps are being taken to adopt uniform international standards of screw threads in the interests of our export trade.
    Mr. H. Strauss: Three, Sir, including a unified thread introduced recently by agreement between the United States, Canada and this country, are in common use here. Two of these are in use abroad. The British Standards Institution, with the full co-operation of industry, is actively

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    engaged in international discussions designed to secure wider agreement on an international standard.

    Factories, Scotland
    Mr. Broom an-Whiteasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) how many applications in Scotland for factory building or extension between the sizes of 5,000 and 20,000 square feet were authorised in 1953 and 1954, respectively, and how many were refused;
    (2) how many applications in Scotland for factory building between the figures of £5,000 and £20,000 were granted in 1953 and 1954, respectively, and how many were refused.
    Mr. H. Strauss: As explained in the Board of Trade Journal of 2nd October, 1954, the statistics of factory building now record area instead of value figures. One hundred and five applications for new buildings or extensions between 5,000 and 20,000 square feet were granted in 1953, and 100 in 1954. No application was refused.
    Mr. Brooman-White: Do not these figures indicate that, if existing trends continue, these applications may in future, be sanctioned forthwith in Scotland with-out reference to London, and that this may be a useful and efficient measure of devolution?
    Mr. Strauss: Recent changes, which I think my hon. Friend has in mind, are not unimportant, but on the particular point which I think he has in mind, I should be glad if he would put down a further Question.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that factory building in Scotland is decreasing, while it is going up in England? What does he think about that?

    Cotton Piece Goods
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the continuing decline in exports of cotton piece goods from this country; and what steps he proposes to take to bring about an improvement.
    Mr. H. Strauss: Yes, Sir. To the ex-tent that the remedy lies within the sphere of Government action, we shall use all
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    our efforts to secure equitable treatment for cotton piece goods in overseas markets.
    Mr. Wilson: Is the Minister aware of the statement published in the "Manchester Guardian "recently that the quantity of cotton piece goods exported last year from this country was the lowest since 1947, a year when we had barely recovered from the war? Does not this mean that cotton piece goods exports now are lower than they have even been in peace-time since the American Civil War? When are the Government proposing to do something about Lancashire's cotton?
    Mr. Strauss: The right hon. Gentleman knows the complexity of this problem. The suggestion that the Government have done nothing about it is quite incorrect.
    Mr. Burden: Does not my hon. and learned Friend agree that this matter must be looked at in a new light, in view of the fact that in many mills man-made fibres are now being used and are being exported by manufacturers who in the past made only cotton fabrics?
    Mr. Strauss: I quite agree that the matter must be looked at from all aspects but, if the suggestion is that Her Majesty's Government do nothing, it is unjustified. We take these matters thoroughly into consideration in negotiating all inter-Government trade agreements. We put the entire resources of the Government's export services, including those of the Trade Commissioner and Commercial Diplomatic Services overseas, at the disposal of the industry. We co-operate with the Cotton Board in publicity overseas and help in sending trade missions into importing countries.
    Mr. Wilson: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the best thing he could do to increase piece goods exports would be to deal with the question of Purchase Tax on Lancashire cotton cloth? Is he now telling the House that as a result of looking at these things in a new light we have now no cotton piece exports in addition to having no guns, no aircraft, and no figures?
    Mr. Strauss: If the right hon. Gentle-man thinks that we have no cotton exports, he is more ignorant of the position than anybody in this House had suspected.

    Indian Cotton Cloth
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the President of the Board of Trade by how many times imports of Indian cloth into Britain in the fourth quarter of 1954 exceeded the imports in the same quarter of 1953.
    Mr. H. Strauss: Imports of cotton cloth from India in the fourth quarter of 1954 were a little over three times the imports in the fourth quarter of 1953.
    Mr. Wilson: Since there has been this very big increase, not merely between the four quarters of 1953 and the four quarters of 1954, but an even bigger increase during the earlier months of 1955, will the Government now tell Lancashire what they propose to do about this very serious problem? The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a long speech in Manchester without saying what was going to be done. Will the hon. and learned Gentle-man tell the House?
    Mr. Strauss: I cannot greatly add to the last answers given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on 3rd February and by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State on 8th February. I can only add that the Minister of State is in Lancashire today.

    Whisky
    Sir T. Mooreasked the President of the Board of Trade the total quantity of Scotch whisky exported in 1954.
    Mr. H. Strauss: The trade statistics do not show Scotch and Irish whisky separately. 13,691,000 proof gallons of whisky were exported in 1954.
    Sir T. Moore: Although this point is not in the Question, may I ask whether my hon. and learned Friend has any in-formation handy to show how those figures compare with the figures of the previous year?
    Mr. Strauss: Yes. The corresponding figure in 1952 was 11,531,000 and, in 1953, 13,206,000. There has been a further increase.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that there will be great discontent in Scotland if there is no Scotch whisky? Is he aware that, because of the extremely high profits, the time has come to refer this matter to the Monopolies Commission?
    Mr. Strauss: I quite understand that there would be distress in Scotland if the facts were as stated by the hon. Member.

    Quota Film Production
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade what estimate he made of the minimum number of films which must be produced annually for the maintenance of the existing quotas, taking into account the need to offer a reasonable choice to exhibitors; and what steps he took to satisfy himself that facilities exist for the production of this number before fixing the existing quota.
    Mr. H. Strauss: Under the Cinematograph Films Act, 1948, the Board of Trade determine the quotas after consulting the Cinematograph Films Council, which my right hon. Friend is satisfied takes all relevant considerations into account.
    Mr. Swingler: As the President of the Board of Trade referred to the Cinematograph Films Council and to the deterioration in the facilities for film production, may I ask whether the hon. and learned Gentleman is not aware of the number of studios that have been sold out of the film industry for commercial television? Was that one of the factors taken into consideration in calculating the possibilities of film production in the next 12 months?
    Mr. Strauss:The selling of studios has been dealt with in a previous answer to the hon. Member. I would refer him to Section 2 of the 1948 Act, where he will see that these matters are considered by the Cinematograph Films Council, which gives its view to the President of the Board of Trade. The President has acted on that view.

ATOMIC ENERGY (PEACEFUL USE)
The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): I feel that the House will wish to have the latest news regarding the peaceful use of atomic energy in this country.
As the House is aware, much progress has been made in developing these uses. Already research, medicine and industry have made great and growing use of the isotopes manufactured at Harwell and substantial quantities have been sold to overseas customers.
I can, in addition, announce that our knowledge of the means of producing electricity from atomic power on a large scale has, thanks to the efforts of the Atomic Energy Authority and its predecessors, now reached the stage when it has become possible for the Government to decide to embark on a programme of big nuclear power stations comparable in output to modern coal-fired stations. In our view, the successful use of atomic energy to generate electrical power on a commercial basis is of crucial importance to the future of the national economy.
The Government also look forward to the time when the United Kingdom will be able to assist other countries not only, as now, with their research and development programmes and with training their scientists and engineers, but also be ex-porting nuclear power stations for the generation of electricity, especially in areas where generation by other means may be difficult or more expensive. Copies of the White Paper describing the provisional programme drawn up by the Government for the construction and development of nuclear power reactors over the next 10 years or so are available in the Vote Office.
Mr. Robens: May I thank the Minister for this momentous statement which he has made, which is a very great tribute to public enterprise? We shall study the White Paper with great interest and may then require to put further questions to him. Meanwhile, may I ask him what part the British Electricity Authority is to play in this matter?
Mr. Lloyd: Owing to the secrecy of much of the knowledge on which this programme is based, it was necessary for
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the Government themselves to take the initiative in the matter, but they gave to the British Electricity Authority an opportunity of undertaking this programme as part of its normal activities, and I am very glad to say that it has accepted that opportunity and will do so. Therefore, we are confronted with a situation in which there will be the closest collaboration between the Atomic Energy Authority, which will be the expert body in nuclear factors in the stations, and the British Electricity Authority, which will under-take their ordering in the normal way. They will, of course, be built for the British Electricity Authority by the private enterprise companies which normally build the stations at the present time. I hope that we may look forward to a constructive period of co-operation between both public and private enterprise in this matter.
Mr. Nabarro: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on behalf of right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House upon his extremely important statement and the bearing which it will have on our growing shortages of coal year by year, may I ask him if he will clarify two points? First, is it not a fact that no significant contribution to our coal shortages will be made by this programme of nuclear power stations until after 1960, and, second, on the 20-year basis which is generally envisaged for large-scale production of nuclear power, can he say what the resultant coal economy is estimated to be until 1975?
Mr. Lloyd:My hon. Friend is quite correct that in the early years we cannot expect a substantial contribution from nuclear power.. That is the period during which, as I have explained to the House on several occasions in fuel and power debates, we expect to get a considerable supplement to our coal resources from the use of oil in power stations which are now going ahead. This is a provisional programme, but at the end of 10 years, if all goes well, we should have 12 large nuclear power stations which should be saving coal to the tune of 5 million or 6 million tons a year. Looking ahead to the longer period, with all the reservations that are necessary and which are stated in the White Paper, the saving in 20 years' time may be in the order of 40 million tons of coal a year.
Mr. G. R. Strauss:Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication what the kilowatt output of these stations is likely to be altogether—some approximate figure—and can he tell us, or say whether it is stated in the White Paper, whether all these reactors are to be of the same type, or are we to launch a programme similar to the one in the United States, where a large number of different types of reactors are being built with the object of seeing which is the best?
Mr. Lloyd: For the first 10-year period the kilowatt output will be 1½ million to 2 million kilowatts a year, and at the end of the second period, between 10 million and 15 million kilowatts a year. The right hon. Gentleman is quite correct in foreshadowing the kind of programme that it is. It is a programme in which one might broadly say that there are at least two different sets of stations. The earlier stations will be of a type similar perhaps to the improved Calder Hall type, and later on we will have a second series of stations. I would not like to commit myself to a technical description of these this afternoon, but they are described in some detail in the White Paper. The important difference between the two stations is this: that in the amazing technology of the nuclear age, the first series of power stations will be required to produce the special fuel which will be used in the second series of power stations.
Sir L. Ropner: My right hon. Friend has confined his remarks to power stations, but I understand that the Americans are driving a submarine by atomic energy. Can he give any forecast when atomic energy may be used in a ship or a motor car?
Mr. Lloyd: No, Sir, I cannot. I think that I can make quite clear to the House why I cannot, when I say that what I have described this afternoon is the commercial application of nuclear power. We feel that the commercial application of nuclear power will take place through electricity generation, at any rate in the early stages. The other uses which are technically possible would not, I think, be immediately commercial.
Mr. J. Hynd: Does the White Paper tell us anything about researches to assist us in the matter of the disposal of atomic waste?
Mr. Lloyd: Yes, Sir. The White Paper deals with that subject.
Mr. Elliot:Can my right hon. Friend say what relation this programme has to the similar great programme in the United States, and whether close liaison is being kept up with that country in the programme that he has outlined?
Mr. Lloyd:That is certainly true in all these matters. But, as my right hon. Friend knows very well, the United States not only have plentiful supplies of oil and natural gas, but their coal mining industry is operating at not much above 50 per cent, of capacity, and he will see that we have a greater need of nuclear power in this country. That is one of the important reasons why we are trying to get on with it.
Mr. Peart: As the right hon. Gentleman appreciates, Cumberland is already playing an important part in the development of electricity from atomic energy, and will he consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and impress upon him that, in view of the importance of atomic energy in Cumberland, we are in urgent need of improved rail and road transport facilities?
Captain Orr:Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while this is great news from a national point of view, it is of special important to areas like Northern Ireland, which are already lacking in their own power resources, and will he assure us that this has been borne in mind in the White Paper in dealing with the siting of reactors?
Mr. Lloyd: Certainly, Sir.
Mr. Bowles: May I express the hope that the Minister will remove a possible feeling of insecurity amongst the mining community?
Mr. Lloyd: I am grateful for that question, and I should like to say that, as is set out in considerable detail in the White Paper, not only will this programme be a great boon to the country, but also, indeed, to the mining industry itself, which would find great difficulty, I believe, in providing in 1975, say, 100 million tons of coal for the generation of electricity alone. There can be no doubt that this programme will be a supplement to the mining industry, which will remain the great

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fuel industry upon which, during our lives and our children's lives, our industry will depend.
Mr. Peart:Can the Minister say how the cost of generation by atomic energy compares with the normal method of generation?
Mr. Lloyd: Yes, Sir. Just about the same.
Mr. Albu:Can the Minister say what steps are being taken to ensure that there are adequate numbers of technologists, scientists, research workers and designers in the companies which will have to produce the equipment both for this country and for export?
Mr. Lloyd:That is a very important point. It is for that reason that courses have been started at Harwell and are already proceeding.
Mr. E. Fletcher: Can the Minister say to what extent this most satisfactory announcement is the result of research by British scientists, and to what extent there is the fullest interchange of technical information between British, American and Canadian scientists?
Mr. Lloyd: The application of nuclear energy to commercial purposes is fundamentally based on the brilliant work of Sir John Cockcroft and his team at Harwell.
Mr. Chetwynd: Can the Minister give an estimate of the cost, spread over a period?
Mr. Lloyd: About £300 million for the provisional programme of the first 10 years.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings of the Committee on Requisitioned Houses and Housing (Amendment) [Money] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  REQUISITIONED HOUSES AND HOUSING (AMENDMENT) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.43 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This Bill falls into two main Parts. The purpose of Part I, the more substantial part, is to bring to an end within a measurable term of years requisitioning for housing purposes. Part II deals with the new arrangements which we propose to make to finance the cost of prefabricated temporary houses. In Clauses 16 and 17 there are also certain provisions for Scotland, and my right hon. and gallant Friend the Joint Undersecretary of State for Scotland will intervene in the course of the debate to deal with those.
  It may be for the convenience of the House if I deal first with Part II of the Bill—that is, the payments for temporary houses—and then come back to our proposals with regard to requisitioned houses. In 1944, under the provisions of the Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Act, the Government made available 125,000 prefabricated temporary houses to the local authorities in England and Wales. It was provided that the capital issues to pay for.those houses in any one year should be repaid by 10 equal instalments of principal and interest at 2½per cent.
  As it turned out, the cost was mainly incurred in three years. Thus, in 1945–46, it amounted to £46 million; in 1946–47, it was £88 million; and in 1947–48 it was £57 million. Small issues for delayed payments to contractors and the cost of some replacements have continued to the current year. The effect of this financial arrangement has been to require annual repayments falling due rather like this: next financial year, £23,690,000; in 1956–57, £18,300,000; and in 1957–58, £8,190,000—thereafter tailing off into small sums ten years hence.
  I think it is clear that the great bulk of temporary housing will remain for longer than ten years. Many of these houses have proved fairly popular and have certainly proved durable, and a

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  great many of them will have to be used, not for ten but for twenty years or more. There is, therefore, a reasonable case for spreading the repayments over a longer period. This could have been done by extending each of the annuities by, say, five years, but that would not have been a very tidy arrangement.
  What, in fact, has been done in Part II of the Bill is to consolidate all the annuities and to take a mean date for repayment. By this means the total sum outstanding, which is over £50 million, will be repaid in seven years by an annuity of £8 million. This means that the last charge will be in 1961–62 and not in 1964–65. In a word, one consolidated annuity replaces eleven or more.
  I turn now to the first and principal Part of this Bill, in which we are seeking to make a fresh approach to this most difficult and persistent problem of requisitioned houses. As hon. Members know, this requisitioning under emergency powers has been part of our housing system since 1939. Originally, it was made necessary by the Second World War. Its perpetuation has been necessitated by post-war housing difficulties. At this distance from the end of the war, and in the light of current housing progress, the Government feel—and, indeed, I think that this is not in dispute—that the system cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely, to be a permanent element of our housing system.
  The Government's object is thus simply stated but, because of the complexity of the problem, the methods of achieving it are not nearly so easy. The House will immediately appreciate that any solution has to reconcile two things. The first is justice for owners of requisitioned houses, and the second is the avoidance of hardship for those living in those houses now and protection of their future interests. In shaping the provisions of the Bill, which has not been easy, my right hon. Friend has had to keep both considerations in the forefront of his mind. I hope that I shall be able to convince the House that he has reconciled both the principles in Part I of the Bill.
  Before I outline the Bill's provisions, it might assist hon. Members to get a rather clearer light on them if I say a few words about the background and the extent of this problem which is now confronting us. Defence Regulation 51 of 1939 was
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  designed to deal with families made homeless by enemy action; that is, by bombing or by evacuation. That was supplemented, first in 1943, when the powers were extended to cover the needs of inadequately housed families, and again in 1946, when local authorities were allowed to use all requisitioned properties as a pool of accommodation for this purpose.
  At the end of the war 71,493 properties had been requisitioned. After that, 51,941 properties were added, although, I should mention, only 246 of those in the last four years. Since the end of the war 61,491 have been released. The figure that we are left with today—that is, to the end of 1954—is 62,000 holdings.
  Mr. J. A. Sparks:Could the hon. Gentleman tell us, approximately, the number of families involved?
  Mr. Deedes:I understand that 90,000 families are involved.
  Even that figure—and it has fallen by 20,000 in the last two years, from 82,000 to 62,000—has not been achieved without great efforts and a large measure of co-operation by the local authorities concerned. This reduction of 20,000 in the last two years, I should add, is not really an accurate guide to the problem which now faces us. A high proportion of requisitioned property is now concentrated in the hands of fifty authorities. They are the hard core of the problem, and some of them face quite exceptional difficulties.
  Out of these 62,000 houses, nearly 50,000 are in London. As, I think, all the London Members will know, the load bears heaviest on London, and that will not surprise anyone who knows what the war inflicted on London. We have recognised throughout that the problem of these London authorities is exceptional and deserving of special sympathy and every consideration, but it leads to this conclusion, that as things are, these authorities—and there are one or two outside London—can foresee no end to this problem for ten to fifteen years. Therefore, there is an overwhelming case for a fresh approach.
  Mr. Hugh Dalton: When the hon. Gentleman says "in London" does he mean the London

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  County Council area, or does he include the outer boroughs as well?
  Mr. Deedes: I refer to Greater London.
  There is one other consideration which I should mention here. Since the inception of the system, the Government have paid the entire cost of this service. The gross cost this year was £15,679,000, the net cost, £6,290,000. In a state of emergency that is a perfectly right and proper thing, but in more normal times it is not a good principle that the Government should pay the whole of the cost of a service wholly administered by local authorities. There is no parallel in peacetime for that in the administrative field. In clearing up this situation it has seemed to us that a financial spur is indispensable, and so far it has not existed.
  Now I turn to the Bill, and here I should like to say that my own task, and I think I can say the task of the House, too, has been greatly assisted because my right hon. Friend has been at pains to clothe the main provisions in the simplest style. Many people have a great deal at stake in this Bill, and as far as possible my right hon. Friend has tried to make sure that they should be able to see and understand what we are trying to do and how we intend to try to do it. For the benefit of the lawyers there is a long interpretation Clause in which the plain words of the Bill are translated into rather more complicated language. My right hon. Friend has tried to be of service both to the lawyers and to the laymen.
  First, let me say one word on the future of requisitioning under emergency powers. The House will have already observed that under Clause 14 powers to requisition additional property for housing purposes are to be repealed forthwith. Last year no houses were requisitioned at all, and in 1953 only seven houses were requisitioned. Therefore, I think I may say that administratively that will not cause any particular difficulty.
  Secondly, these 62,000 houses already held by the Government, and the responsibility for them, are transferred to local authorities under the terms of Clauses 1 and 2. Local authorities are given the.right to retain and use these properties for five years ending 31st March, 1960,
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  but no longer. The expense, as well as the properties, is being transferred to local authorities, and as the financial Clause, Clause 10, makes clear, towards this we shall pay 75 per cent, after 31st March, 1956. Until then we shall pay 100 per cent, of the cost, which, in effect, means that the present financial arrangement will continue for just over a year from now.
  The House will have observed that this and other financial arrangements are based on the present housing ratio of three to one—that is to say, three parts by the Exchequer and one part by the local authority. As far as the financial provisions of the local authorities go, that is not quite all, because from 1957 any local authority which can satisfy the Minister that the burden of even this one-quarter is putting an unreasonable load on the rates will be eligible for additional assistance.
  Lieut-Colonel Marcos Lipton: How much is "unreasonable" —2d., 3d. or 4d.?
  Mr. Deedes: That remains to be determined when the situation arises. I should add that terminal compensation for dilapidations, which is the standing charge at the end of the requisitioning, will be reimbursed wholly by the Exchequer.
  Mr. Frederick Elwyn Jones: Could the hon. Gentleman give us a clue to the kind of tests which are to be applied to determine the moment when this additional assistance will become operative? We are very much in the dark at the moment. It may be difficult to forecast, but we should like some guidance on this point.
  Mr. Deedes:The hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that it is difficult to foreshadow in advance. This provision, with all the provisions in this Bill, has been fully discussed with the local authorities or the local authority associations, and the most I can say at the moment is that they have accepted this provision. They understand its implications and have agreed upon it. The detail of its working out, I think, must wait until nearer the time.
  Mr. Herbert Butler: Surely, in the discussions with the local

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  authorities, the total loss to the Exchequer has become known. The 25 per cent, which the local authorities will have to contribute under the new arrangement must be known. Therefore, the responsibility of the local authorities can be quite easily ascertained—whether it is a 5d., 6d., 7d. or 8d. rate. Why cannot we have the figure which is considered reasonable and the figure which may be considered unreasonable?
  Mr. Deedes:Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will await what my right hon. Friend has to say about local authorities later in the debate. The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that there are many uncertain factors, many obviously depending on the rate at which these houses can be disposed of, before which it is impossible to give an accurate answer.
  Mr. C. W. Gibson: I understood that the Minister was dealing with the payment by the Treasury in the case of excessive losses. He was asked to say how that was to be judged. Are we to take it from what he has said that no formula has been worked out? We know that the local authorities, at any rate, do not know of any formula at present. Are we to be told on what formula those excessive losses will be worked out?
  Mr. Deedes:Obviously, no commitment of this kind can be undertaken with out having a good look at what might be involved. It is, therefore, quite true that there has been a broad approach to the problem. If I may suggest it, if the hon. Member will wait to hear what my right hon. Friend has to say this evening, in particular about the local authorities, he will be—
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: It will then be too late.
  Mr. Deedes:I should add that terminal compensation for dilapidations will be wholly reimbursed by the Exchequer and will not be part of the local authority's cost.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will the hon. Gentleman try to help the House? He tells us that he knows the answer, because he has said that his right hon. Friend will give such information later; but his right hon. Friend will be winding up the debate later this evening.
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  If the hon. Gentleman knows the answer, why cannot he give it to us now?
  Mr. Deedes:I am not withholding any information which I expect my right hon. Friend to give later. I have said that we cannot give these provisions in detail, because they obviously depend on circumstances which may arise when the provisions come into operation. I think that is clearly understood by local authorities— by bodies to whom we have spoken— and they are the people mainly concerned.
  Mrs. Lena Jeger: Is it not a fact that local authority representatives have been pressing the Minister for a formula? Are not their representatives opposed to the matter being left entirely within the Minister's discretion? Is it not misleading to say that local authorities accept this rather vague situation?
  Mr. Deedes: I was careful to say "the local government associations." Those are the bodies with which we have conducted our negotiations. We have discussed the likelihood of these provisions being needed. Perhaps I may now get on with the remaining parts of the Bill.
  The remaining Clauses of Part I are concerned almost entirely with the methods of eliminating this pool of 62,000 houses before 1960 without hardship to the occupants. I think it will be accepted by anyone who studies the problem that there is no single method by which this can be achieved. Some half-a-dozen methods are being employed and I should like to say something about each one.
  The first, and perhaps the most obvious, which is covered by Clause 3, is that when a house falls vacant it shall be released. Any exception to that rule must have the Minister's consent. The second, and perhaps the most important, is offered by Clause 4. It would obviously be a major contribution towards reducing this pool of 62,000 requisitioned houses if owners who did not wish to occupy or sell the houses were prepared to give the present occupants a statutory tenancy.
  It is impossible accurately to compute how many there might be in this class, and I think any guess might mislead the House. A major difficulty in all this work has been that the 62,000 houses cover a great diversity of circumstances. They defy statistical analysis. I will only say

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  that we think this could make a major contribution, and we believe that it will. In effect, the owners will be invited to accept the present occupants as statutory tenants and to grant them rent-controlled tenancies. Where such an agreement is reached, houses will cease to be requisitioned.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: Before the hon. Gentleman goes to the next point, may I ask whether I am right in thinking that there is no means whatever of obliging an owner to grant a statutory tenancy if he does not wish to do so?
  Mr. Deedes: I have not quite finished Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to finish this point.
  I think we should look at this, first of all, from the owner's point of view and then from the tenant's point of view to see what the precise result will be.
  Mr. Percy Shurmer: Why not the other way round? The hon. Gentleman would do away with the Bill if he looked at it from the tenant's point of view. He would not then ask the House to pass the Bill.
  Mr. Deedes: Take it either way. Take it, first, from the tenant's point of view, if hon. Members like. The tenant will pay no more than he is paying now, for 10 years, subject to any change which a local authority may feel it proper to make in the rent—any change such as it can now make for any council tenant. The local authority will make up the difference, and that will rank for Exchequer grant. The owner will get the rent which he is receiving now, which is compensation rental, plus the statutory repairs deduction, because he will become responsible for the repairs and maintenance of the house; and this will become the standard rent. As a result, he will lose his right to vacant possession, and for this he will be compensated.
  Mr. Shurmer:Does the hon. Member believe that landlords are as kind as that? If he knows anything about town and city landlords he will know that all they are out for is to get the house vacant and then to sell it to the highest bidder.
  Mr. Deedes: If the hon. Member is fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, no doubt he will develop that point later.
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  We hope that the granting of these tenancies will make an impression on the problem, but, of course, we cannot depend entirely on this method so, in addition, two other alternatives are proposed, which will be found in Clause 11.
  Mr. Sparks Mr. Sparks rose—
  Mr. Deedes: I have given way a good deal and I should be grateful if the hon. Member would permit me to get on with my speech. A great many hon. Members want to take part in the debate.
  The first of these two alternatives empowers the local authority to obtain leases of requisitioned houses for a term of ten years or so by negotiation with the owners. I think it is worth mentioning here that for this purpose local authorities will not be confined to requisitioned houses. If they need to, they can negotiate for any other house. Either way, the effect is a lease between willing parties in place of a house now held on requisition. The Exchequer will pay 75 per cent, of the cost of any annual deficit for ten years.
  If neither of these methods provides enough houses to accommodate those in requisitioned houses, there is a third possibility, which is that local authorities may purchase.
  Mrs. Jeger: They can now.
  Mr. Deedes: Since there are known to be owners who are willing to sell, compulsory purchase powers should not be needed in this instance. Again, in that case, three-quarters of any deficit will be borne by the Exchequer for twenty years.
  We feel that all these methods are fair to owners and offer the fullest safeguards to tenants, whose position is assured for at least ten years. But among the owners of these requisitioned houses there are cases—and I think that no hon. Member in any part of the House will deny this—
  Mr. Dalton: I want to get one point clear. The hon. Gentleman has said that the position of tenants is assured for ten years. Does not this Bill deal only with five years in respect of their security?
  Mr. Deedes: The provisions which I have just outlined cover a period of ten years—that is, the powers and the financial provisions for a lease or for the sale of a house. If the right hon. Gentleman will look again at the Clause he will see that that is so.
  Mr. Mitchison: This is an important matter. All these provisions depend upon the consent of the owner. If the owner does not consent, is riot this the position: that in 1960 the occupant, the licensee— for he is not a tenant—is turned out on the road without any provision whatever being made for him in the Bill?
  Mr. Deedes: I have a little more to say about that and I think I can answer the hon. and learned Gentleman later in my remarks.
  I was speaking of the owners of requisitioned houses among whom, I think it is accepted, there are some cases of very real hardship. I do not suppose that there is any hon. Member who has not at one time or another encountered one or more such cases, and I therefore need not elaborate the kind of difficult circumstances which arise for these owners, and particularly for the owner of only one house.
  For these people we have thought it right that there should be two other provisions. In the first place, under Clause 5 we give the owners the same rights as those given to the owners of rent restricted houses—rights to apply to the courts for vacant possession. That means that the courts will determine the relative hardship between owner and occupier. There will not be many of those cases and it should not be difficult for local authorities to find alternative accommodation for the few involved.
  Then there are owners who do not want to live in their own houses, but are in urgent need of their capital value. We all know of cases no less deserving of sympathy in this category. A second provision is included in Clause 6, whereby the Minister can require the local authority to release or to buy a house at market value with vacant possession. I stress that this is not likely to be a large group, but within it there are known to be some extremely hard cases.
  There is one other provision in Clause 7 in respect of owners. That is designed to meet the needs of those who wish to modernise or convert a house by means of an improvement grant. That provision is in the interests of property.
  Mr. Derek Walker-Smith: Would my hon. Friend bear this consideration in mind in relation to the procedure under Clause 6? That appears to
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  be a purely administrative decision. Would it not be possible to consider whether there ought to be either a right of an aggrieved applicant to go to the courts or at any rate to have a review by some non-Ministerial body, where the Minister is not prepared to accept the allegation of hardship?
  Mr. Deedes: I take the point made by my hon. Friend, which I think hon. Members would wish to consider in Committee.
  I am giving an outline of the instruments which we are proposing to bring to bear on the task of restoring these 62,000 houses to normal conditions. Perhaps I might sum up what we have tried to do in Part I of the Bill.
  Mr. Lewis: What about the question asked by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison)? The hon. Gentleman said that before he finished dealing with the Bill he would deal with that point.
  Mr. Deedes:I think I am right in saying that the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) was whether or not this depended on the consent of the owner in making the necessary arrangements with the tenant. These arrangements are triangular because the local authority is brought in as well and, of course, they are subject to consent. The whole object is to achieve tenancies by consent in place of by requisition. That is the essence of the contract.
  Mr. Mitchison: May I make the point quite clear to the hon. Gentleman? All these arrangements depend on the owner's consent. Am I right in thinking that if the owner does not consent to anything the occupant would be turned out on to the street in 1960, without any provision being made by this Bill to accommodate him?
  Mr. Deedes: No. In coming to that conclusion the hon. and learned Member omits from his calculations the very great number of steps which will be taken between now and 1960, partly in a field I have not even mentioned. For example, normal provisions now being made to allocate part of every waiting list to a number of people in requisitioned houses. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] By the time 1960 is reached those provisions should

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  have rendered the situation suggested by the hon. and learned Member quite impossible. The last resort is the purchase of the house.
  We have tried to liquidate a debt incurred in the Second World War. Like many debts associated with that event, it has proved much easier to incur it than to repay it. As it stands it is a source of some hardship to owners and of much uncertainty and anxiety to a great many tenants or licensees of requisitioned houses. To do nothing more than we are doing now, by accepting palliatives—and they are nothing more—of current administrative action would mean that it would become harder and harder for the local authorities concerned. It would be tantamount to accepting the problem as a permanent one. That, we think, is intolerable. We cannot and ought not to regard this as a bad debt.
  It is perfectly true that local authorities will incur added responsibility, but, in the long run, we think that their task will be made a great deal easier by these measures. I think they accept that. The local authority associations have been consulted throughout. My right hon. Friend can say more about that later in the debate. They have contributed to these proposals and my right hon. Friend is very grateful to them for all they have done. The main provisions of the Bill have been framed with their agreement.
  Equipped with these new provisions, we shall make a new attack on this problem together. We think we can solve it. We are asking the House to approve the terms of this new partnership agreement and so enable us to repay in justice and equity something which stands at the head of the debit column of the housing account.
  Mr. Lewis: The hon. Gentleman will remember that the predecessor of his right hon. Friend, with a great nourish, instituted a great attack on the slums. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that most of these requisitioned houses are in London and other populated areas, where there are the majority of slums? Will he say to what extent this Bill will interfere with local authorities carrying out proposals to deal with slum properties? He did not mention that aspect of the matter at all.
  Mr. Deedes: In so far as the Bill has any bearing on the problem mentioned by the hon. Member, it must assist in its solution.'
  4.17 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Dalton: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which contemplates the eviction of occupants of requisitioned houses in 1960 without providing for their rehousing and, while protecting landlords from special hardship, gives no similar protection to occupiers."
  This, surely, is a quite unnecessary Bill. Over the greater part of the country it will not operate at all, because over the greater part of the country there are no requisitioned houses, or very few, remaining. On the other hand, where it does operate—principally in the London area—it will undoubtedly cause new hardships and throw new burdens on local authorities, the precise amount of which the Parliamentary Secretary has by no means clearly defined. The size of the problem the hon. Gentleman has stated to be now 62,000 houses, housing 90,000 families. Scotland is in on this and, therefore, can be included—
  Sir Austin Hudson: There is very little there.
  Mr. Dalton: That is my point, and I am obliged to the hon. Member for strengthening my argument.
  Taking the whole country, including Scotland, out of the 62,000 remaining requisitioned houses we are told that 50,000 are in London, including Greater London. Outside London the Bill will operate principally in Birmingham, Liverpool and, I think, in Bristol. Over Great Britain as a whole there are62,000, of which 50,000 are in London and I would guess that most of the remainder are in three or four major cities of which I have named three. Therefore, over the whole of the rest of the country, including Scotland, the Bill will not operate at all. Clearly, for the rest of the country this is an unnecessary Bill.
  On the other hand, where it will operate it will cause great hardship because, in the judgment of many persons with practical experience of these matters, five years is much too short a time in these very difficult areas to wind up the whole of the requisitioning arrangements.

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  Before coming to my general argument, I wish to make one further statistical point. After all, the position does not remain stationary from year to year. The Parliamentary Secretary has told us that in the last two years 20,000 houses have been derequisitioned. Therefore, two years ago there were 82,000 requisitioned houses. A quarter of them have been disposed of in two years, and therefore, even without the Bill, the process of derequisitioning is going forward gradually and steadily.
  Mr. Deedes Mr. Deedes indicated dissent.
  Mr. Dalton: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but surely he is not saying that without the Bill there would be no further derequisitioning. Evidently, from the figures he has given, derequisitioning is going forward. What those of us who support the Amendment object to is trying to force the thing to a final and premature conclusion within five years in these difficult areas.
  We should have preferred an approach in which, instead of taking a figure of five years and making it a national figure, the matter was handled on the basis of the different areas of the country according to the needs and conditions in each area. Over the greater part of the country, as I have indicated, the Government could get a legal and final end of requisitioning in much less a period than five years, in many cases within one year where requisitioning has practically gone down the wind already.
  But in the areas where requisitioning is still a serious problem, it would have been much better had the Government, instead of fixing one uniform term of five years for the whole country, made arrangements whereby a different period might be fixed for different areas according to the local needs before bringing these arrangements to an end.
  Many of my hon. Friends will, no doubt, speak, if they are fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, of their own local experience of these problems, and I will not attempt to summarise what they may wish to say; but the Minister, who will wind up the debate, is himself a London Member and will, I am sure, listen with particular interest and sympathy to what is said about the London aspects of the problem.
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  The Parliamentary Secretary truly said that requisitioning is historically due to the blitz. A large number of people are in requisitioned premises because their homes became war casualties. They were under the Luftwaffe and they were in the track of that storm, and they should, therefore, be treated with exceptional sympathy and patience in their troubles which were no part of their responsibility.
  The Amendment makes a further point, namely, that this Bill
  "contemplates the eviction of occupants of requisitioned houses in 1960 without providing for their rehousing and, while protecting landlords from special hardship, gives no similar protection to occupiers."
  I think it is common ground, among all who have had experience of these hardships in their constituencies, that there is a genuine grievance on the part of the small man who owns only one house. I am not concerned with the professional landlord who lives by collecting rents from others, and much less with the large and impersonal company which does that. But the individual who owns his house is undoubtedly in many cases suffering a great grievance, which we should seek to abate and remove.
  That individual may wish to get back into his house but cannot get back into it, or he may wish to change his place of residence or work and would dearly like to sell the house which is his to buy another house somewhere else. For the person who owns one house in which he himself desires to live there is great sympathy, and we shall be very happy in the further proceedings on the Bill to make sure that safeguards for him are just and adequate.
  But what about the safeguards for the occupiers of these houses? Very often there is a tragic conflict of vital interests. A family living in such a house might have nowhere else to live if it is pushed out, while another person, perhaps with a family, is eager to get back the possession of his house or to get the money to buy a house nearer his work in another area.
  I did not follow the Parliamentary Secretary's argument about what would happen under the Bill. I say, "under the Bill" because at the end of his speech the hon. Gentleman spoke about other provisions that might be made in some

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  other form somewhere else. I did not follow the hon. Gentleman's answer to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), who asked whether it was not the case that under the Bill an occupant of a requisitioned house will have no assurance after 1960 that he will be able to continue to live where he is now living. I am sceptical whether many landlords will make their existing tenants in requisitioned houses statutory tenants under rent control.
  I share the scepticism of my hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer). But suppose that some cases are to be dealt with in that way and by the other provisions in Clauses 5 and 6. It is still true that under the Bill there is no assurance that any tenant of a requisitioned house will not be put out on the street in 1960; I do not think that that can be denied. If that is really so, our argument appears to be very strong in support of the Amendment.
  I should be very interested to hear, when the Minister replies to the debate, whether I have not correctly stated, and whether my hon. and learned Friend before me did not correctly state, the position as it will be in1960. There is no legal assurance for these people, and I would guess that a high proportion of them will be entirely without any right to continue to live anywhere in 1960.
  Sir William Darling: That is fifteen years since 1945.
  Mr. G. Lindgren: They were bombed out.
  Mr. Dalton: Many of these people are the children of men who died for their country. Let time run not only in favour of property rights. Let it run sometimes also in favour of those who fought in the war or who, being civilians, suffered from enemy action in the war.
  Sir W. Darling:The right hon. Gentleman surely would agree that the owners of houses which have been requisitioned for 15 years also served in the war, and their fathers served, too.
  Mr. Dalton:The hon. Member will have heard me say that I have the greatest sympathy for the small man who has one house, and that I am eager to see him get it back again without injustice to others; but it would be a grievous injustice in
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  many cases if, in 1960, these families are turned out from the places which they now occupy. If the Minister can say anything which alters my interpretation of the Bill, I shall be interested to hear it.
  Additional financial burdens are to be imposed on local authorities. It is said that a spur is required—that was the phrase used—arid that the form it will take will be that the local authorities will have to carry certain costs which in the past have been carried by the Treasury. But the Parliamentary Secretary was not at all exact or clear as to how that will work out. It has been necessary for many authorities within the Greater London area to have special assistance by way of rate relief—I think of West Ham and East Ham and there are others—because for a variety of reasons they are in a state of municipal poverty. They have great burdens upon them which they find it very difficult to meet.
  We certainly are entitled, before consenting to the Second Reading of this Bill, to have information that is a good deal more detailed. The Parliamentary Secretary hinted that the Minister would be able to say more about this. Whatever may be the inconvenience, from the point of view of the debate, in having to wait until the end to hear what is to be done for local authorities, it is better to hear it at the end than not to hear it at all. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will be able to fill out that part of his speech rather more fully, because the Bill will be of great concern to hon. Members who represent the constituencies in question and to the communities which they represent here. Many of these are very heavily overburdened.
  There is a further point about the burdens on local authorities on which I should be grateful if the Minister can say something. It relates to Clause 1 (3), in which it is laid down that
  "Any agreement made in respect of a requisitioned house on behalf of the Minister, and in force immediately before the commencement of this Act, shall continue in force and have effect thereafter as if made on behalf of the local authority."
  That may be very onerous indeed on the local authority.
  I should be glad if the Minister could tell us whether there are any, but there may be agreements entered into with regard to many requisitioned properties for payments at the end of the term which

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  would be much heavier than what the local authority would otherwise be required to pay. If there are such agreements, the least that the Minister can do is to take up any excess payments that may arise and meet them from Exchequer funds.
  There is a further reference in the Bill to the purchase of houses by the local authority. We on this side of the House are generally in favour of the extension of municipal estates. We think that there are great advantages to any local authority in considerably increasing its estates and becoming the owner of rented properties in its area. That helps in many ways. It gives the local authority more elbow room and a more varied estate, with a wider range of sizes and types of houses, so that voluntary transfers between families can come about more easily.
  Mr. Walker-Smith: Free of rent restriction.
  Mr. Dalton:There may be a lot of argument about that. But the hon. Gentleman does not propose to bring in a Measure to institute rent control for houses owned by a local authority, does he? Is that part of the new Conservative programme?
  Mr. Walker-Smith:The right hon. Gentleman was in the House when the 1936 Housing Act was passed, which limited the rents which could be charged by the local authority to its housing tenants, not under the operation of the Rent Restrictions Acts, but by a specific statutory provision. The right hon. Gentleman was a Minister when that statutory provision was repealed by the Housing Act, 1949, which was introduced by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan).
  Mr. Dalton:These are very interesting excursions into history. I merely wanted to make sure that the chairman of the 1922 Committee was speaking with full authority when he said that it was a pity that local authority housing properties were free of any of the provisions for rent control.
  Mr. Walker-Smith:The right hon. Gentleman must do himself justice, apart from me. I did not say anything about it being a pity. I pointed out that they were not subject to the Rent Restrictions Acts and, therefore, any extension of
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  local authority tenancies in that way meant the diminution of rent restriction.
  Mr. Dalton: That may well be so, but George Bernard Shaw once said that he was in favour of houses being owned by public bodies, because then as a ratepayer or taxpayer he had some voice as to what was done with the rent he paid, whereas in the case of private property he had none. That argument is still not without weight. The hon. Gentleman was a little premature in raising the point, because it is bound to lead one to wonder whether the 1922 Committee is not urging a reform of the law in this respect. Perhaps we shall hear more about that in the debate.
  I was saying, when the hon. Gentleman intervened, that, in general, we are favourable to an increase in municipal housing properties, but we are not quite clear as to how that will operate under the Bill. It looks as though compulsory acquisition is not so much to be applied here by a local authority to an unwilling landlord, as by a Minister to an unwilling authority. The Financial and Explanatory Memorandum on the Bill states:
  "The Bill provides that a requisitioned dwelling shall be released earlier than that date …"—
  That is, at the end of five years—
  "(d) When the owner is suffering severe hardship and the Minister directs the local authority to release (or alternatively to purchase) the house…"
  This looks as if compulsion to purchase is to be applied in some cases by the Minister to local authorities. I should like that more fully explained by the Minister when he replies to the debate.
  I have tried to keep in touch with current opinion on this subject and I have had sent to me a paper called "The Surveyor and Municipal and County Engineer." It is a very reputable and authoritative paper. I should like to read to the House some comments on the Bill which appeared in the issue of 12th February. The paper states:
  "The Bill has nothing whatever to do with the protection of the families living in requisitioned houses. It is solely concerned to secure to landlords the value of their premises with vacant possession. The cost will be considerable, and will be thrown on the rates. The Ministry state that representatives of local authority associations have been fully consulted and that the main provisions of the Bill, including its financial provisions, were framed

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  in agreement with those representatives. The payment of subsidies to landlords because their tenants cannot pay without severe hardship is unforgiveable. When money cannot be found for roads and other urgent public services, this payment of subsidies where no need is shown displays an irresponsible attitude to public funds, the very charge made in the Crichel Down report."
  I have read this passage because I am sure that the Minister will have read it too and will wish to reply to it.
  Mr. John Hay: Who wrote it?
  Mr. Dalton: The editor, I expect.
  The references to Crichel Down are perhaps debatable, but I agree with the earlier sentences which I quoted. They seem to me a very pungent summary of the Bill. I read the passage to get it on the record and to get the Minister to reply, as I am sure he will wish to do.
  It is still my hope that, when the Minister has listened to the remainder of the debate, including what I am sure will be some very well-informed comments from the point of view of the principal local authorities concerned, he will agree with what I said in my opening sentences. He will agree that this is an unnecessary Bill, that it approaches the problem in the wrong way and that it would be much better to take area by area and make special arrangements for each, including a considerably longer period than five years for the London area. I hope that in the light of our discussion the Minister will take the Bill back, think again and bring in a better Bill.
  4.39 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Jenkins: I rise because I think it fair to say that my constituency has more requisitioned families in it than any other in the country. The Borough of Camberwell has the second largest number of these families, Wandsworth having the largest. I feel, therefore, that I have special attachment to the subject because so many of my constituents have come to see me or have written to me about it. I welcome the Bill and the way in which it has been drafted, but I hope that Amendments will be made to it during the course of its journey through Committee. Furthermore, I hope that before the debate is over the Minister will tell us what he
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  means by Clause 10 (2), to which I shall refer in a moment or two.
  Having read the Bill, and knowing a fair amount about the problems of both the tenant and the landlord of requisitioned houses, I consider that a fair bargain has been made to both sides. There are few tenants living in requisitioned properties in London who really want to stay there. Since they know that it is of a temporary nature and that they cannot look forward to such property being their permanent home, they want to get out of it and into a permanent house.
  I would respectfully suggest that this is the right time to do something because, unless something is done by some Government at some time, this position will be perpetuated. I assure the House that large numbers of such tenants are in a continual state of trepidation, wondering what will happen to themselves and their families; and the younger the parents are the more worried they are.
  The Bill enables a landlord who wishes to do so to live in his own house at the earliest possible time. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned ex-Service men. Large numbers who were called up had bought their houses with the assistance of a building society, their families were sent to the country under evacuation schemes, and their houses were taken over. Hundreds of thousands of other people were compulsorily evacuated from London to the country and as their houses became empty these also were taken over. Therefore, there are 50,000 houses in London and Greater London which were taken over by virtue of those two facts. It is with those people who wish to get their houses back in order to live in them that I am concerned.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton:Has the hon. Gentleman any idea how many of those 50,000 houses are required by owners who want to live in them? Is he aware that the number is small in relation to the total number of houses?
  Mr. Jenkins: I do not know the answer to that question but, speaking from my own experience, there are large numbers of them. Those who have come to see me and written to me are of that description, and I have not had any approach from landlords who own large numbers of these houses.
  Mr. Albert Evans:For the information of the hon. Gentleman, and for the clarification of hon. Members generally, I have in my hand a document from the owners of requisitioned houses, who put the figure of single owners at between 4,000 and 5,000.
  Mr. Jenkins: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that information.
  Now may I turn to another angle. The transfer to local authorities by the Government of the right to determine all points with regard to requisitioned property in the future is important. Up to now, many local authorities have been backward in releasing property in cases of great hardship, although they could have done so. Camber well Borough Council is one of those. Even in proved cases of hardship, the council has been backward in this respect, and only by constant pressure have any properties been released.
  This was because until a year or two ago it was the policy of the council not to release to owners any properties whatever. Therefore, the transfer of the powers not only of management, but of responsibility for the property, is not only a good safeguard from the point of view of property owners and tenants but it is also of great advantage to the taxpayer.
  Although the problem occurs principally in Greater London, it is a national problem, and always has been since requisitioning started, so it should be a national charge. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) said that the people of London and Greater London and of the big cities were bombed during the war, whereas the rest of the country was not bombed, so the cost of maintaining these people in requisitioned property as the result of their homes being bombed should be a national charge. Yet, some time or other, this must cease and the question is, when? The Government have specified a limit of 1960 and this is wise because, unless local authorities are forced to do something, in a large number of cases nothing will be done.
  When the war was over the Government of the day continued to give powers to local authorities to requisition and those powers were withdrawn only a short time ago. It is now certain that no more
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  properties will be requisitioned. I want to answer one point made by the right hon. Gentleman about the five years. There is provision in the Bill, though perhaps indirectly, for specific powers to be given to local authorities, particularly as regards London and Greater London, to take three certain steps. I will not bore the House with these because no doubt other hon. Members will deal with them in detail. The House must realise that five years is not a long time having regard to one fact. Here I am not attempting to make a party point, although it may appear so.
  During the last three and a quarter years nearly 1 million people have been rehoused in new permanent housing whereas, if the maximum figure for building had remained at 200,000 houses a year, they would never have been provided with new permanent houses. I am not suggesting that if the right hon. Gentleman and his friends had been in power three and a quarter years ago they would not have exceeded 200,000 houses a year, but I am saying that if the maximum of 200,000 houses had not been relaxed there would have been 1 million fewer people in permanent houses today. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I will not weary the House with the way it is worked out, but it can be shown in simple figures.
  If that be so, then at the present rate of building there will probably -be 1£million more people in permanent houses in the next five years than there would have been if the ceiling had remained at 200,000. The effect of this will be that with the increase of building throughout the country, and with perhaps even a progressive rate, five years will be about the right time to give the local authorities in which to hand back to the owners these requisitioned houses, because the additional new permanent housing available will take up the slack represented by these requisitioned houses.
  One further comment on that point. Hon. Members perhaps do not appreciate that to derequisition a house does not reduce the family unit at all Somebody goes into the house out of which somebody comes and, therefore, there is no reduction in the number of family units, but only a transfer of one family unit to another place.
  Mr. Julius Silverman: The hon. Member was

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  dealing with total figures for the whole country. How does that apply to places with very large registers? For instance, in the City of Birmingham there are 60,000 people on the register of whom more than 30,000 are lodger applicants with families. How is this problem to be met over the next five years by dealing with total figures for the whole country?
  Mr. Jenkins: I am obliged to the hon. Member. That brings me to my last two points and I will deal with that one first.
  Because of the grave circumstances in my own constituency—and I know that other hon. Members are concerned with the very great problems in Birmingham and West Ham—I ask the Minister to make some special provision for those areas with the largest number of requisitioned properties and with very little land upon which to build. Special attention should be given to these areas which were the most heavily bombed during the war and which should now have the most pleasant and agreeable treatment. I have no doubt whatever that the general outline of the Bill is the correct one, but some concessions should be made to those places most hardly hit in the war.
  Mr. Graeme Finlay: Is my hon. Friend aware that new towns are being. created around the perimeter of Greater London to help places like West Ham and that a substantial amount of taxpayers' money is going into those new towns?
  Mr. Jenkins: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am aware of that, but I still maintain that it does not follow that the people from the most badly bombed areas will find accommodation in the new towns. As and when the Minister has the opportunity to think about certain proposals that may be made to him when the Bill is dealt with in Committee, I hope that he will pay special attention to these areas.
  I should like to call the Minister's attention to Clause 10 (2), which says:
  "If the Minister is satisfied in the case of any local authority that the additional burden placed on their rates in consequence of the provisions of this Part of this Act … is greater than is reasonable, he may, with the consent of the Treasury, make to them a special grant in respect of that year of such amount as he may …"
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  I want to give one instance of the effect of the Bill, if local authorities for four years have to pay the 25 per cent, of the total amount. The Borough of Camber-well's deficiency for 1953–54 in respect of this service, and for which it got a total reimbursement, was £181,500 gross. The net amount was £163,000. The 25 per cent, which it will be called upon to pay the year after next will amount to £41,000, which is approximately equivalent to a 6d. rate.
  I make this plea to the Minister, who is not only the Minister of Housing, but also the Minister of Local Government. At present, rates are soaring and local authorities are hard put to it to get enough money to pay for the services which they should render to their ratepayers. This additional burden of 6d. on one borough —it may be much more in other London boroughs—is an unconscionable burden which my own borough should not be called upon to pay.
  The Minister should relieve the minds of local authorities, who will have to administer this Act, by telling the House at the earliest possible moment what amount of money he is prepared to accept in respect of this 25 per cent. If25 per cent, is not reasonable in Clause 10 (2), if it represents a 6d. rate, or a 6d. rate, what formula will he adopt? What is in his mind? Is he considering a rate-poundage basis, or a hereditament basis, or what? It would be very advantageous to the many thousands of local authorities involved in this, if they knew in advance, today if possible, what, in fact, was their liability.
  Notwithstanding some of the suggestions I have made this afternoon from the experience I have accumulated in my own division, and which, with the utmost respect, I ask the Minister to consider, I welcome the Bill and hope that the Minister may be able to make some concessions in the debates in Committee.
  Mr. B. T. Parkin: As the hon. Member is more likely to get a reply than we are, and as he has spoken feelingly about the fact that this problem was created by the war, does he not believe that, since this is a national problem created by the war, the whole of the burden should be carried by the Treasury? If so, what need is there for the Bill?
  Mr. Jenkins: I did not want to detain the House by dealing with that point.
  Requisitioning has to end some time. Local authorities are only the agents of the Minister at the moment, managers on behalf of the Minister. They are to have the authority handed back to them and it is an obvious principle of government in its relation to local authorities that the local authorities, if they have the responsibility, should pay for it. Unless they have the incentive, the local authorities would not be sure to carry out the terms of the Bill. It is for that reason that I think that the local authorities should pay and, in fact, they have agreed to pay 25 per cent.
  4.59 p.m.
  Mr. Herbert Butler: The hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins) would probably have been assisted if he could have secured from the Parliamentary Secretary some indication of the point at which the Minister would regard the expenditure of local authorities as unreasonable. I am sure that, if he had not been satisfied with that, we should probably have found him with us in the Division Lobby tonight.
  I can quite understand him generalising about the situation and saying that he feels that his own local authority of Camberwell does not always apply its mind to a reasonable interpretation of the necessities of handing back requisitioned houses. I want to turn this debate away from that sort of generalisation and deal with realities. It is all very well talking about 50,000 or 60,000 houses, or 82,000 units. I want to express the problem in terms of the day-to-day existence of people in the boroughs which were bombed.
  I rise to oppose the Bill and to support the Amendment. My main opposition to the Bill is that it seeks to pass on to local authorities a problem which manifestly belongs to the national Government. It is a matter for the central Government to attempt to repair the ravages of war; it should not pass the responsibility on "to the local authority.
  I cannot conceive of a more vicious and atrocious proposal than that contained in the Bill. I am not arguing that my constituency had bigger bombs than any other; those days have gone, and
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  we have ceased to talk about the people who suffered during the war. However, in this proposal we can see the Government's mind working. Here we are dealing with people who have suffered misery, had their homes destroyed, and lost what were termed their "chattels," which means, in effect, the things which they had built around themselves in the course of their lives, and which had become very dear to them.
  We are now telling those people that, because of new zoning arrangements and new standards of housing, rows and rows of houses in industrial and dock areas and areas interspersed with commerce which were destroyed, can never again be replaced in such numbers in those areas. We are telling them that not only must they suffer as a consequence of the bombing but that they are now to be tortured further.
  I have been the chairman of a housing committee for a number of years. We have often heard the argument that if we wished to take over the railways we should remember the poor woman sitting burning the midnight oil to keep the accounts of her husband who was engaged in transport or some other industry. The same sort of arguments are being advanced in this case.
  What we have to consider are the facts of the situation. In my borough at the moment there are 3,370 requisitioned properties. At the monthly meetings of the housing committee we consider requests from ex-owner-occupiers who plead that it is a greater hardship to keep them out of their property than it is to turn the licensees out. The 14 persons on the committee are ordinary, humane individuals who understand the circumstances, and they try to do what is best in the interests of everybody concerned.
  The number of applications received at the monthly meeting ranges between three and six; throughout the years that I have been connected with the committee I have never known a greater number. Therefore, to base the Bill upon the argument that the owners of requisitioned property today are, in the main, people who possess only one house is absolute nonsense.
  I wish to give some figures relating to my local authority. I do not want it to be felt that I am basing my arguments solely upon the circumstances in my

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  borough, but surely we cannot understand the problem as a whole unless we appreciate the points which arise in various areas. Of 43,600 residential hereditaments in my borough, nearly 27,000 were damaged by bombing, many of them several times. Four thousand of them were either so badly damaged that they had to be demolished or were totally destroyed; they were, therefore, entirely demolished as a consequence of the war. This meant a loss in rateable value between 1939 and 1945 of £109,000.
  Arising out of that loss of houses and rateable value, the right hon. Gentleman now brings in a Bill which imposes a further obligation upon us. That loss was a result of war. Surely we do not pay for wars by "passing the buck" to the most luckless section of the community. On the contrary, we say that in a period of emergency, danger, trial, and tribulation help should come from the whole of the community to lighten and lessen the burdens of those who suffered.
  It is sometimes said that we remember nice things and fortunately forget bad. There is a danger in forgetting the bad things, because we are apt to forget the responsibility which falls upon us in connection with them. Hon. Members who were connected with Civil Defence during the war—I was a chief warden—will know that we operated a mutual aid scheme. On Government instructions, dangerous areas were evacuated, and people were often housed by neighbouring boroughs which had habitable property left by owners. When my borough was attacked, inhabitants were at times housed in other Metropolitan boroughs under this scheme. However, on balance my borough took in more people than it sent out.
  We had a classic example of something approaching social equality being achieved. A man was bombed out of a little slum dwelling at Hackney Wick. We managed to get him a flat at Dolphin Square. That did not last long. Suddenly the Ministry discovered where Dolphin Square was and said that the man had better return to the salubrious district of Hackney Wick.
  The fact that we assisted other boroughs under the mutual aid system brings to light and heightens the financial inequali-
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  ties implicit in the provisions of the Bill, for we shall have to pay more money because we took more people in.
  When considering the proposition before the House, we should ask our selves whether the hard hit local authorities have attempted to meet their responsibilities in relation to the derequisitioning of the property which was made available. I believe that there is no basis for the charge which has been levelled against local authorities. I have had something to do with successive Ministries on these matters. Since 1947, my borough has derequisitioned more than 700 units of accommodation, which is about 100 per annum, but the Bill means that we shall now have to release units at the rate of 700 per annum. How is that possible?
  This is at a time—I want to give the facts so that the situation can be under stood—when we are faced with the appeal from the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor to enter upon "Operation Rescue." My borough has 2,660 unfit houses to be dealt with during the next 15 to 20 years. We have 489 slum properties earmarked by the medical officer of health to be dealt with in the next five years. We have 8,000 basement dwellings, a large number of which were, and are, totally unfit for habitation.
  These figures are in front of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, but we are told to release our requisitioned properties. We have 6,000 families waiting for accommodation, and of them 2,380 are in category A. The right hon. Gentleman intervened to say that we had the new towns. Since 1952, my borough has had the advantage of securing about 200 tenancies in the new towns and we still have a waiting list of over 6,000 families. That is the position in one London borough.
  I assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that my local authority has been as energetic in tackling its housing programme under the present Government as it was under the Labour Government. We take the view that this is not a matter of party politics. Our view is that we must pro vide accommodation for our people. We believe that the Tory Party has hampered us by what it has done. There have been many points of disagreement with the proposals put before us. Nevertheless, we have accepted our responsibility as a housing authority and gone ahead

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  with our job. Since the end of the war we have managed to build 1,800 houses.
  As well as the arithmetical problem, there is also a great human problem. I am sure that the Minister is not quite heartless, but I imagine that he approaches the problem with very little knowledge of local government activities. However, that is not necessarily something which detracts from his general usefulness.
  The Minister has produced a Bill. What does it say, when we sum it up? We can apply to it the term, "Chuck 'em out." It says that we must buy the properties or get the landlords to accept the occupants as statutory tenants. On the question of purchase, I would inform the Minister that we have been in negotiation with his Ministry for eight months about the purchase of five specimen properties under the Housing Act, 1936. It has taken us eight months to get a decision from his Ministry.
  The Minister has utilised the time of expensive town clerks, borough treasurers, and other officials of the local authority, who have been trying to ascertain from him the basis on which he will assist us so that we can buy the houses and fix rents which are within the financial capacity of those who are badly in need. It has taken us eight months to get a decision on those five houses. Even then, the decision is unsatisfactory. I am sure that it will not meet the requirements of our population. We are told that we can purchase. Then, while this "speedy" rate of acquisition is proceeding, any properties falling vacant cannot be re-occupied until we get the sanction of the Ministry.
  Apparently the Minister does not know what happens. The local authority is continually seeking to utilise to the full requisitioned property and any municipal property which it had. It often removes people from under-accommodated property so that it can house people from overcrowded property. However, the Bill says that when property becomes vacant the Minister is to authorise the local authority. From our knowledge of the Minister and his predecessor, Molotov has nothing on them when it comes to saying "No." Whatever suggestion we have submitted in connection with requisitioned property, the answer has been "No."
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  It is a fact that licensees are removed for a variety of reasons, and that, in accordance with the appeal of the Ministers, we have utilised the accommodation to the full. To me Clause 4 is a "peach." It represents the height of super-optimism. Apparently the news has not yet reached Whitehall that everywhere property owners are keeping houses empty so that they can sell at enhanced prices.
  Anyone who has had to deal with requisitioned property knows that owners often go to the county court judge and apply for possession of part of a house on the ground that the licensee is a nuisance. The judge has to decide whether it is a greater hardship to leave the occupant in possession or to turn the property over to the owner. As soon as possession is secured, the owner offers it for sale with vacant possession, yet the Minister says that we should appeal to the owners to accept the licensees as statutory tenants. I do not know how far he thinks he should go.
  I am grateful for having had the opportunity to contribute to the debate. It appears to me that the Parliamentary Secretary rested his case—and I rather fancy that the Minister will add to it—on the fact that the Bill has come before the House after consultation and agreement with the local authorities. Sometimes it is difficult to define, what is agreement. If, for example, a local authority association is called into consultation and asked for its observations, usually the observations are submitted, and eventually the Minister says, "Unless you take this you will get nothing" or "If you take this, will you do that?" It is a question of negotiation. I should like the Minister to tell us exactly how the negotiations were conducted.
  It is computed by the borough treasurer of Hackney that under the formula laid down in the Bill we shall lose about £30,500, which is equivalent to a 5d. rate. This is a bad Bill, which ought never to have been brought before the House. As the Amendment says, it gives protection and extra rents to land lords, and no protection to the tenants.
  My final words to the Minister are that he should remember that he is the Minister of Housing and Local Government and that he is neither the agent

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  of the Property Owners' Protection Association nor of the requisitioned property owners. I hope that he will have enough sense to realise that the interests of the citizens of this country are bound up with the retention of this property until such time as there is a reasonable chance of the occupants being reasonably housed elsewhere.
  5.18 p.m.
  Sir Austin Hudson: Naturally I have some sympathy with what has been said by the hon. Member for Hackney, South (Mr. H. Butler), be cause he represents part of the Borough of Hackney, and I represented another part in this House for 21 years—from 1924 to 1945—including the time when bombing was taking place. Therefore, I can confirm the accuracy of what he said about the difficulties that our people had there at that time.
  I want to speak now of the Borough of Lewisham, part of which I have represented for some years. I understand that there are there 3,471 families in requisitioned properties. That number is a little higher than the figure for the Borough of Hackney, though there is not a great deal of difference.
  As has been said by previous speakers, these houses were taken over as a war emergency measure. In Lewisham, I have found that many of the. properties quite unsuitable for the purposes for which they are being used. That is particularly apparent in that part of London. There are a number of rather large houses in the Black heath area—not necessarily in the Black heath ward—which were meant for one family and which now have a number of families living in them. These properties are large, cold, damp, and badly lighted. Most of them have deplorable sanitary arrangements.
  I have had two sorts of complaints from my constituents, about one of which we have not heard much during this debate. It comes from tenants in the type of house I have just described who are unable to obtain other accommodation, because they are told that there are others who are in more difficult circumstances than they are; that if the number of rooms are counted—and so on—their accommodation may be considered to be suit able. Yet the house is usually very old-fashioned and most inconvenient.
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  I have also had a number of complaints from the owners of houses who wish to get their properties back. There appear to be four chief reasons. Sometimes the complainant is a person who is retired and wishes to get his house back in order to settle down in his retirement. Another complaint comes from people who wish to live near their work.
  At present I am concerned with the case of a schoolmaster who is actually living in the ground floor of his own house. The top floor is requisitioned. The property is close to his school. He has a grown-up son coming back from the university, and he has no room to accommodate him, so that he now wishes to obtain complete possession of his own property. There are also cases of young people whose families are increasing and have outgrown the accommodation pro vided for them; and there are cases of families in which the children are growing up, where separate bedroom accommodation is now necessary for the boys and girls. Such cases in all London Metropolitan boroughs are dealt with perfectly fairly by a committee, but I am afraid that usually such people meet with a refusal.
  To the best of my knowledge, I have had no representations for a Bill of this kind from big property owners, such as housing trusts or the Churches. I should like to give one rather amusing instance, because I have been attacked before now when I have said that property owners are very often owners on a small scale. When the Housing Repairs and Rents Act had been passed, I thought that I should have an enormous number of complaints from tenants. As a matter of fact, I have received no complaints from tenants to date.
  But I did have a complaint from two owners, a husband and a wife, who were old-age pensioners. When they left me, the man said, "Thank you very much, but my tenants are awfully nice people, and I do not think that I shall do anything about it at all." I thought that, on the whole, they represented the best kind of landlord. I hope that as a result of this speech I shall not receive an influx of complaints about that Act.
  I am rather surprised to see the reasoned Amendment on the Order Paper. As I understand it, the Bill was agreed to by the Metropolitan Boroughs

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  Standing Joint Committee, which has a Labour majority. Two days ago, the Lewisham representative, who is a Conservative, told me that the committee had agreed to it, and I confirmed that last night when I saw the leader of the council. I asked him if it were the fact that that committee had agreed, and he told me that that was so.
  Mr. A. Evans: The hon. Member is correct in saying that the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee agreed in principle to the proposals. But I think he will find that, having had a chance to study the proposals contained in the Bill, the authorities will not stand by that commitment, and that most of them will be opposed to the provisions in the Bill.
  Sir A. Hudson: The committee would seem to be a very extraordinary body if it agreed to this, and then, when the Bill was printed, disagreed. That would seem rather like what sometimes happens in this House.
  Dr. H. Morgan: They did not understand it, that is all.
  Sir A. Hudson: The hon. and learned Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones) complained that the rate in his area would be excessive. But in the London County Council area we operate the rate equalisation system, so that rate-payers should not be much worse off.
  Most of the complaints voiced by hon. Members opposite seemed to be about the finances of this Bill—the 25 per cent, as against the 75 per cent. Most hon. Members opposite have said that their boroughs would experience difficulty in finding the money. But the leaders of the party opposite thought so little of that argument that they have not even put it in their reasoned Amendment.
  I cannot believe that the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee, with its big Labour majority, would pay no heed to the needs of the tenants, I think that when it gave general approval to this Bill it felt that the needs of the tenants were amply covered. If the Bill had intended that the tenant should have no such protection all that was needed was Clause 1, because all the other Clauses are directed to ensuring that the tenants obtain a fair deal. I am now of course referring to Part 1 of the Bill.
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  My own experience is that the majority of tenants long to get premises of their own which are less overcrowded than their present accommodation, and more comfortable. Incidentally, I think that they would have a much better chance— we cannot debate this now but we shall have to do so sooner or later—were not so many council houses occupied by tenants who are must better off than the people for whom they were originally built, and who would otherwise be able to occupy them. That matter is being discussed by the London County Council and by many borough councils— [Interruption.] There are many borough councils with Labour majorities who operate this differential rate: it is by no means a Tory idea—and all the authorities appreciate that it is a very difficult question.
  The present system of derequisitioning is to earmark council houses. This idea of earmarking council houses for dispossessed people is not a new one, and it is a method which will have to be stepped up. Again, owners are to be asked to accept the present tenants as rent-controlled tenants. I do not agree that no one will do that. In many cases I think that owners will do so. I have heard of cases where houses in parts of Marylebone and Kensington have been requisitioned and the owners do not want them derequisitioned. They are only too delighted to keep on the tenants as statutory tenants, if the property is being used properly. They also receive compensation of a kind, 75 per cent, being paid by the Treasury as a kind of sop to them for giving up vacant possession, and if they have subsidised the rents, 75 per cent, of the subsidy is to be made to the owner.
  Mr. Sparks:The hon. Member is mixing up the Treasury contributions to local authorities for leases and purchases with compensation paid to owners, which is quite different.
  Sir A. Hudson: If the hon. Member reads the Clause he will see that compensation is to be given, and that 75 per cent, will come by way of Treasury grant.
  Clause 11 deals with the renting or buying of suitable property by the local council; it need not be the same requisitioned property. If the council rents it, it can keep it for 10 years, during which

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  time it will receive the same contribution of 75 per cent. If it buys the property, compensation is paid for 20 years. That seems to be fair.
  Again and again the Bill says that if tenants cannot be removed from requisitioned houses without suffering hardship the Minister must be consulted. I am sure that no hon. Member is going to pass any Bill which will turn somebody out into the street. I have never seen it done in my 30 years in Parliament, and I do not expect to see it now.
  I believe that the provisions of the Bill will solve the problems of the tenants. If, a year before 1960, it is found that the intentions of the Bill are not working out, I have little doubt that a deputation composed of hon. Members on both sides of the House whose constituents are suffering hardship will ask the Minister to take action before anything drastic happens.
  We, must remember that many owners are only property owners in a small way. Four Clauses deal with owners. Houses that fall vacant become derequisitioned. That is sensible. No hardship is caused to the tenant; some family will go into the vacant property, and that family will leave a vacant house for somebody else. Clause 5 deals with hardship, and maintains the position which exists in regard to rent-controlled property. If an owner can show greater hardship than his tenant he can get back his house if he takes the matter to a county court.
  Clause 6 deals with cases of severe hardship, and I am not so sure about that one. The matter is obviously one of those which will have to be discussed during the Committee stage. When I read the Clause, I thought that it referred to persons who were going bankrupt. The question of severe hardship must be an awfully difficult one for anybody to decide, and I hope that the question will be fully discussed during the Committee stage.
  I commend Clause 7. If the owner agrees to take back the house for modernisation and conversion he can have it at once, but he must let it to tenants approved by the local authority. They will be the same kind of people as those who vacate the premises. I have seen properties of that kind which could be made comfortable for many families but
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  which, at the moment, are requisitioned, are deteriorating very rapidly, and will fall down if something is not done to them.
  Mr. R. J. Mellish: If these properties are in a bad way, why does not the Tory-controlled Lewisham Borough Council repair them?
  Sir A. Hudson: Some of these big houses are almost impossible to repair. They require rebuilding. They are enormous places, with very high ceilings, and they have no electricity, no proper sanitation, and no heating. If we do not have a Bill of this kind I do not know how we shall be able to deal with that form of property. We cannot go on for ever under a system of requisitioning, and we are trying to build a sufficient number of houses to cater for the people who have to leave the derequisitioned houses.
  Mr. Parkin: The hon. Member has spoken very optimistically of what will happen when houses become vacant. Has he any idea what is already happening every day to London properties which become available with vacant possession? Will he say something about that, because it would be nice to have some view ex pressed by an hon. Member opposite as to the desirability of some degree of compulsion being placed upon landlords. He would help to satisfy the inquiries which have been made, without result, by some of my hon. Friends to the Minister. What is the opinion of hon. Members opposite upon the exercising of pressure upon landlords to agree to the offers made to them?
  Sir A. Hudson: It is entirely up to the landlord, but if he likes to sell the house to another family why should he not do so?
  Why should the family have to be nominated by the local authority? It is not as if the house is to be left empty. If the house was to be pulled down there would be something in the argument of hon. Members opposite, but, as it is, somebody is going to live in it. I suggest that the people who have to leave should be put into a house in one of the large housing estates, outside which we see large, shiny, black cars. So long as someone moves into the house the position is satisfactory. In my view the Bill is a fair one. As far as I know it is

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  agreed to by the Metropolitan boroughs, and I hope that we shall press on with it, and thus deal with another very difficult problem.
  5.36 p.m.
  Mr. C. W. Key: I promise to speak for only a few minutes, because I think that it is up to all hon. Members who take part in this debate to be as brief as possible in order to give an opportunity to their colleagues—especially those representing affected areas— to speak about what I regard as a most unfair and unjust Bill. For that reason my comments will be of a general and not particular character.
  The Bill imposes burdens and hard ships upon the ratepayers of many highly-rated properties; upon the licensees of many requisitioned houses and, most of all, upon those badly and inadequately housed folk who have been on local authority waiting lists for a very long time. The Bill places an additional burden of 25 per cent, upon the rates, but I regard this work as a national responsibility. The requisitioning of houses was a wartime necessity—an essential part of the work which had to be done and financed for the proper carrying out of the national effort. The areas most affected were those which were heavily bombed, or those nearby, to which many of the de-housed people had to be transferred. This was a general aspect of war activity. It was a national service and, as such, it should be nationally financed.
  What justification can there be for saying, in effect, to the ratepayers of the affected areas, "You suffered most during the war; your rateable value has been greatly reduced by war destruction. You have the most serious problems of re construction, which will fall very heavily upon your local rates. Now, instead of trying to find ways of giving you greater assistance, we propose to curry favour with the people living in the largely unaffected areas—the greater and luckier body of taxpayers—and we seek now, because we have got a view of the future, to get their support at the forthcoming election by transferring to your local rates 25 per cent, of what should still be a national responsibility."
  In areas like my own, the rate increase will be 5d., 6d. or 7d. in the £. It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen opposite to
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  talk about the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee and the local borough councils accepting the proposals in the Bill. Let me be quite frank. A very large number had never seen the Bill, and did not know what was in it, and quite a number of those engaged in the negotiations were very nicely led up the garden by the Minister and his representatives.
  They started with the idea that they would have a very heavy burden to bear —60 per cent., I am told, was the first offer. That meant 40 per cent, from the Ministry and 60 per cent, from the local rates. That was the first suggestion which was made. Next, it was switched the other way round—60 per cent, from the Ministry and 40 per cent, from the local rates.
  When, ultimately, it became only 25 per cent, from the local rates, they were so overcome by the improvement which had been made that they were prepared to give their approval to the suggestion. That is the suggestion, as far as local authorities in the London area are concerned, and I have full authority from my own people to say that they hate this Bill and that they hope the House will throw it out.
  What of the licensees who are now living in the requisitioned houses? Some of them will be rehoused by 1960, but a very large number will not. My own area has the idea of devoting 50 per cent, of all available housing accommodation to the purpose of derequisitioning these houses, and, if it allocates that 50 per cent., three-quarters of the present houses will have to remain requisitioned after 1960.
  What is to happen to the licensees in those cases? The licensees remaining in these requisitioned houses in 1960 will automatically become trespassers and liable to eviction, because the houses will have passed from the local authority to the private landlord. It is true that some of the landlords may be willing to accept them as tenants, but the terms upon which they will allow them to remain have to be determined by the landlords.
  Mr. Hay: No; has the right hon. Gentleman read the Bill?
  Mr. Key: The hon. Gentleman should read the Bill, too. Clause 4 does not deal with the people who are there after 1960.

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  It deals only with those people whom the existing owner of requisitioned houses says he is prepared to take over as statutory tenants.
  Mr. Hay: Read the Bill.
  Mr. Key:If the hon. Gentleman him self reads the Bill he will see that in 1960 these people can be charged any exorbitant rent that the landlord chooses to impose. Many of us are only too familiar with some of the tricks of landlords with regard to tenancies under their control. For example, we know of those who put in a few pieces of quite inferior furniture and let the houses at very high rents as furnished premises. None of the houses that are handed over, except those that come under Clause 4, will come under the Rent Restrictions Acts.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: No.
  Mr. Key: Read the Bill. As a result, the tenants can be fleeced quite ruthlessly when requisitioning comes to an end.
  Mr. Hay: May I put this point to the right hon. Gentleman? Since he advises us to read the Bill, will he say in what precise part of the Bill he would have us find the authority for the statement which he has just made?
  Mr. Key: The authority is there, because the Bill makes no arrangement whatever for providing that vacant tenancies in the future shall come under the Rent Restrictions Acts.
  Mr. Robert Jenkins: Let us suppose that one of these rent-restricted houses becomes vacant, that the landlord takes it over with vacant possession and accepts a tenant to occupy it. The rent is fixed for that house today, and the incoming tenant automatically becomes a statutory tenant. Therefore, I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that, unless the Bill says other than that, then precisely the same position comes into operation after 1960, because the statutory tenancy will still exist.
  Mr. Key: No, I do not accept that as an interpretation of the Bill at all. I think that the exact opposite of that is really true, particularly as far as tenants who are left in requisitioned houses after 1960 are concerned. Nothing whatever is provided for them in this Bill.
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  Lastly, I want to say a word or two about the people remaining on local council housing lists, because, in my opinion, they will be the worst affected by this Bill. I refer to couples living apart, one with one relative and one with another; a man, his wife and two or three children living in one single room; ex-Service men just coming back into civil life; and newly-married couples just starting out on family life.
  These are the people who are likely to suffer most, because if the local authorities try to carry out what this Bill requires them to do, there will not be available the necessary accommodation with which to provide all the people on their waiting lists with houses. If areas such as my own provide as much as 50 per cent, of the available accommodation, they will still have left three-quarters of the requisitioned houses, and, if local authorities are to deal adequately and properly with this problem, then the whole of the new accommodation must be reserved for that purpose.
  I say that we have no right to impose upon local authorities an obligation such as that, which is an injustice to the people they represent and to the people whom they are there to serve, and I therefore hope that the Bill will be rejected.
  5.49 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: I imagine that tomorrow some of the colleagues of the right hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Key) on the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee will read his remarks in this debate. I do not know whether they will be more annoyed to read that he has accused them of allowing themselves to be hoodwinked and bamboozled, or more astonished at the ignorance which he revealed of the working of the Rent Restrictions Acts.
  In his speech, the right hon. Gentleman, like the hon. Member for Hackney, South (Mr. H. Butler), laid great stress upon the fact that this problem originated in the circumstances of the late war. It would be a mistake, however, to suppose that now, in 1955, the licensee occupants of a great proportion of these requisitioned houses are the direct victims of war circumstances.
  The House heard my hon. Friend who moved the Second Reading of the Bill point out that after the end of the war,

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  when the bombs had ceased to fall, a very large number of additional houses— many included in those with which we are dealing—were requisitioned. We are now simply concerned with a part of the housing pool available to local authorities, which they quite consciously, deliberately and rightly use and administer as part of their housing resources. To suggest that, ten or fifteen years after the end of the war, this part of the housing pool should be treated for historical reasons as different, financially and in other ways, from the rest, is an argument which falls to the ground.
  The mover of the Amendment said that the Bill was unnecessary. If by that word he means a Bill which will not apply to every local authority—if the word "unnecssary" is used in that peculiar sense—we must admit that the Bill is unnecessary. It is unnecessary in no other sense. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) admitted that himself. He said he wanted to see owners of requisitioned property whose hardship was the greater given the same rights as they would have if they were the owners of rent-restricted property. How does he imagine that that could be achieved without legislation? Therefore, in the view of the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland Clause 5 is entirely unnecessary.
  The right hon. Gentleman is not in the House at the moment, but no doubt his hon. and right hon. Friends will speak for him. We did not clearly get from him whether steps ought or ought not now to be taken to bring requisitioning to an end. He said that it ought to be dealt with in a different way in different parts of the country: different periods ought to be prescribed for different parts of the country. But he did not tell us what periods he thought ought to be prescribed, or how, without legislation, those periods could be finally laid down and the matter cleared up.
  Before we turn to the allegations of the Amendment about what will happen in 1960, the House ought to get an estimate of the proportions which the problem will be likely to have five years from now. This is bound to be guesswork. We are trying to ascertain how many properties will still be requisitioned in 1960, taking account of any factors attributable to the provisions of the Bill and to other changes
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  in the meantime. Because an estimate is necessary and because we cannot give the number with certainty, that does not discharge the House from attempting to form some idea of the dimensions of the problem at the time.
  For our purpose we can fairly take London as a basis, for it is admitted on both sides that the problem is severest in London. If we can satisfy ourselves of the proportions in London, we can deal with the problem elsewhere a fortiori. I have taken two or three samples in the County of London, to see the present rate of derequisitioning, and what might be expected to be the effect of the Bill.
  Take, for example, the Borough of Lewisham. The amount of requisitioning in Lewisham is about typical for the County of London as a whole. It has 17 families in requisitioned houses for every 1,000 of its population. Lewisham's figure is approximately in the middle between boroughs which are better off, with eight or nine families per 1,000, and those which are worse off, with 26 or 27 families. In the last quarter of 1954, 80 requisitioned premises were derequisitioned by the Lewisham Borough Council. During that quarter it took, on its own initiative, further decisions designed to increase the rate of derequisitioning, but it had already attained a rate of derequisitioning well in excess of 300 houses per annum.
  We must now address ourselves to the question, what will be the effect of the provisions of the Bill upon the rate of derequisitioning? Obviously, some contribution will be made by Clauses 5 and 6. Cases of hardship will succeed under Clauses 5 and 6, but they cannot be numerically very great. We can expect from Clause 4, however, rather more than has been anticipated by some hon. Members who have spoken. I do not imagine that it will mostly be the owner of the individual house to which Clause 4 will appeal; but the owners, whether they be companies or individuals, of a consider able number of requisitioned houses will find the terms of Clause 4 by no means unattractive.
  After all, they will get the compensation rental, plus the statutory deduction. They will get compensation for loss of vacant possession. They will also get at once the terminal compensation under the 1939 Act, instead of having to wait until the Greek Kalends for de-requisitioning.

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  For a company or owner possessing a number of houses, which, in any case, they will continue to let for income, these terms are not at all unattractive, especially as my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North (Sir A. Hudson) reminded the House that many owners of requisitioned premises have been unwilling to see them derequisitioned because they find even the compensation rental alone a tolerable return on their capital. Therefore, a considerable value ought to be attributed to Clause 4 in accelerating the rate of derequisitioning. We may add to that that, in the next 12 months, while financial responsibility still lies wholly with the Government, local authorities will have a strong incentive to maximise the number of cases in which they can bring derequisitioning about.
  Taking all these factors together and summing them up as the effect of the Bill, I think it is not unfair and not over-optimistic to expect from the Bill some thing like a 50 per cent, increase in the rate of derequisitioning. The effect in Lewisham—to revert to the example which we were examining—will be that the 3,500 families at present housed in requisitioned premises will have fallen to well under 1,000 by 1960, something in the region of 800. They will have been reduced to about a quarter of their present number, assuming only a 50 per cent, increase in the present rate of derequisitioning—
  Mr. Mellish: Is not the hon. Member ignoring the fact that Lewisham, like many other London boroughs, has no further sites to build on and therefore will have to go in for slum clearance? This means that it cannot rehouse the requisitioned tenants while it has people waiting on its housing list.
  Mr. Powell: I am merely applying what Lewisham is doing already 10 throw light on the consequences of the Bill, and to arrive at an estimate of the size of the problem in 1960. Let me take another borough in which the problem is almost as severe as it is in Poplar, from which the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken comes.
  In Westminster, there are 17 families in requisitioned accommodation for every 1,000 of the population. This is prac-
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  tically the same as in Poplar, where the number is 19 per 1,000. In the first nine months of 1954, 250 families living in requisitioned premises were re-accommodated by the Westminster City Council. If that rate, increased only by 50 per cent., goes on, there will be no requisitioned premises at all in Westminster some time before 1960.
  Mr. J. Silverman: If the hon. Member's figures are typical, and his argument is correct, does not that prove that the Bill is completely unnecessary, because derequisitioning is already proceeding?
  Mr. Powell: It may be proved that the problem in 1960 is not as exaggerated as hon. Members opposite have tried to argue, but that is far from suggesting that there will be no problem to be dealt with in 1960, and far from suggesting that a modest acceleration in the rate of derequisitioning over the next five years is either uncalled for or impracticable.
  Mr. Key:Since the hon. Member has quoted my constituency, will he say what is the number of families in requisitioned premises and what is the total number of families in the borough?
  Mr. Powell: I do not have to give the right hon. Gentleman the number of families in the borough. He would not know this, of course, but the formula happens not to be the number of families in requisitioned accommodation compared with the number of families in the borough. The formula which was adopted by the Working Party on Requisitioned Premises, and which is now universally treated as a fair formula for gauging the intensity of this problem is to compare the number of families in requisitioned property with the population of the borough.
  The number of families in requisitioned property in Poplar on 30th September, 1954—this was in HANSARD yesterday— was 1,258 and the population of Poplar is approximately 73,000; so the right hon. Gentleman will be able to satisfy himself that there are approximately 18 to 19 families per 1,000 of population in requisitioned premises in Poplar. Therefore, the two cases which I have investigated —the Borough of Lewisham where the figure is 15 and the City of Westminster where the figure is 17—are not very different from that of his own borough.

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  I am not claiming that there are no extreme cases and that there are no boroughs where the rate of derequisitioning is far lower or where the number of families per 1,000 of population is much higher.
  Mr. Elwyn Jones: Will the hon. Member say what other solution there is under this Bill?
  Mr. Powell:If the hon. and learned Gentleman will permit me to develop my speech, I will try to do so. I am engaged at the moment in selecting, as best I can, the representative, average boroughs in regard to this problem.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: The hon. Member has told us what will happen on the basis of these representative boroughs if the rate of derequisitioning increased by 50 per cent. If he looks at the figures for London as a whole, and makes the same calculation at the end of five years, he will see that there will still be some 25,000 families, about half the present number, left unprovided for.
  Mr. Powell: The hon. Member has anticipated the conclusion at which I was about to arrive. If the present rate of derequisitioning is accelerated, as I have argued, and if the hon. Member will accept my estimate for this purpose, by 50 per cent., we shall be left with under 20,000, about 18,000, families in 10,000 houses in the County of London. If the hon. Gentleman had not risen to make that intervention, that was precisely the deduction which I was about to draw and to buttress with the few cases which I have mentioned.
  So the size of the problem in the County of London is likely to be that we shall have something under 20,000 families in 1960. Some hon. Members may think that below, some may think it above, the probable figure; but, at any rate, there will be about 20,000 families still in requisitioned premises in 1960.
  Mr. Sparks: Then what is to happen?
  Mr. Powell: That is the next question —what is to happen? The Amendment says that the occupants of the requisitioned houses are to be evicted. That is what the Amendment thinks will happen to the families still in requisitioned premises in 1960. I have noticed that, in their speeches hon. Members opposite,
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  often take a very low view of the intelligence, competence and sense of duty of local authorities. They are asking the House to believe that local authorities which have the power to purchase these premises, or other premises in substitution for them, will deliberately neglect to do so, that over the five coming years they will make no preparations whatsoever for this eventuality, and that they will, in complete disregard of their statutory housing obligations, leave these people to become trespassers in 1960.
  They have the powers to deal with it. They have additional powers conferred by the Bill. They have been given by this Bill the same financial assistance that they have in all their other housing operations. Yet hon. Members opposite are asking the House and the country to believe that the local authorities concerned will fall down on this part of their job.
  Mr. A. Evans: Does the hon. Member agree that if the occupants are not out of these requisitioned premises by 1960, they will, in fact, become trespassers?
  Mr. Powell: Yes, that is undoubtedly the case under this Bill. What I also say is equally undoubtedly the case, that no local authority in London or elsewhere will allow that situation to arise when they have the power, as a last resort, to purchase these properties or other properties in lieu, and thus give people security of tenure, as great a security of tenure as has any other council tenant.
  Mr. Evans:Would the hon. Member agree that there are areas where it will not be physically possible to acquire suit able premises? I would remind the hon. Member that I questioned whether the occupant would be a trespasser in 1960 because the Parliamentary Secretary denied that that would be so.
  Mr. Powell: I certainly did not hear my hon. Friend say any such thing, but we can consult the record when it is available. The hon. Gentleman says, "Where will the premises be for acquisition." Well, here they are: they are the very premises in which these families will be accommodated in 1960. It has always seemed to me to be a very unsatisfactory situation for tenants that thousands of families should be housed by local authorities in premises for which the local authorities have no financial responsi-

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  bility, and which the local authorities have therefore, no incentive to put into a proper condition for lengthy occupation.
  Mr. James MacColl: The hon. Member said that local authorities would have the power to purchase houses at the end of the five years. When he used the word "power," did he mean that they will have power compulsorily to acquire them, or to buy them in a free market, when the owner of the house knows that he is going to have trespassers in his property and can get them evicted?
  Mr. Powell: I meant acquire compulsorily. They can do so at the end of the five years, and, indeed, at any time that they believe this to be necessary in the meantime.
  Mr. MacColl: With Treasury assistance?
  Mr. Powell: The Treasury grant applies whenever a house is acquired for re housing persons affected by the Bill.
  Mr. MacColl: In answer to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), the Parliamentary Secretary said quite plainly and categorically that there was no compulsory power. Are we to believe the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) or are we to believe the Parliamentary Secretary?
  Mr. Powell: It is of no use the House attempting to debate what is on the record. We can all satisfy ourselves about that when the record is available.
  Mr. Douglas Johnston: Before the hon. Member starts on another point, may I ask him to point out the Clause of the Bill which says that there is power of compulsory acquisition?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I would remind the House that this is not the Committee stage, but is the Second Reading debate.
  Mr. Powell: The power, as I am sure the hon. and learned Member will recollect, exists in Part V of the Housing Act, 1936, and the reference to action taken under that Act qualifying for Exchequer contributions will be found in Clause 9 (2) of the Bill.
  I repeat that the burden of this Amendment is, in effect, an attack upon the
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  competence and the sense of duty of the local authorities concerned. This is an attack which all who know the way in which local housing authorities act will immediately repudiate. It is said that those housing authorities will so neglect to perform their duties, will so neglect their residual powers of compulsory acquisition that the tenants for whose housing they are responsible will be left stranded in 1960.
  Hon. Members opposite may believe that, but few others will. Certainly, the Labour Party, which has a majority on the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee, did not take that view. Unless we take the low view of them held by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Poplar they did, knowing what they were doing, welcome these as sound proposals, with sound financial conditions attached and recommended them.
  This Bill ends a situation which every one really feels to be unsatisfactory. It will convert what always was a make-shift, one way or another, into the provision of permanent homes for the people who are at present in requisitioned property. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland said that it was impossible to wind up requisitioning in the next five years in the way which the Bill envisages. I have heard that word "impossible" "before. I remember the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members opposite saying that it was impossible to build more than 200,000 houses a year. It is just because it has been possible to do so, that we have every confidence that this problem also will be dealt with—and dealt with satisfactorily to the tenants as well as to the country—in the next five years.
  6.14 p.m.
  Mr. Percy Shurmer: I should like to follow the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) in his remarks about requisitioning. He started by saying that he did not think it necessary to continue requisitioning. He also spoke of hon. Members on this side saying that people are in requisitioned houses because they were bombed out during the war. In the opinion of myself and many others, the housing problem of today was brought about by neglect in the inter-war years as well as by wartime bombing. Another cause of the trouble is the planning of

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  the Labour Government in the first five years after the war, which has brought about continued full employment and enabled more people to get married. As long as houses are standing idle and thousands of people require them, those houses should be requisitioned for people to live in.
  Mr. Powell: The hon. Member is agreeing with me that the houses are now part of the general housing pool for dealing with the general housing problem.
  Mr. Shurmer: I was a member of the Birmingham City Council until 1949, and we requisitioned a number of houses. Is it right that, while thousands of people— many of them ex-Servicemen—are living in rooms, or a room—and in some cases man and wife are parted—houses should stand empty? When the Parliamentary Secretary and hon. Members opposite say that local authorities are very pleased with the Bill, I just cannot understand it. I do not think that the Birmingham local authority is very well pleased.
  When the Parliamentary Secretary opened this debate—and I take this opportunity to thank him very much for allowing so many of us to interrupt him; he was very good about that—he spoke of owners being prepared to allow a sitting tenant to become the tenant of the house under rent control. Either he glossed over the fact, or knows little about it, because in many large cities at present—and certainly in Birmingham—owners who, through derequisitioning, can get possession of their houses, and owners of other houses, are even offering money to tenants to get them out so that the houses can be sold at very high prices. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West would be astounded were I to tell him some of the ways and means which owners of property are using to get people out of the houses for that purpose.
  I agree that London is the most seriously affected city, but Birmingham, too, is affected. It was bombed very badly during the war. I think it is second in the list of heavily bombed cities outside London. There are still more than 1,900 families living in requisitioned houses in Birmingham, even though we are de requisitioning about 200 houses a year. If this Measure is passed it will greatly aggravate Birmingham's housing problem
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  and will also slow up slum clearance. Like some of the other great cities, we are also getting to the end of our tether in house building. We cannot find sites. We shall probably be meeting the Minister about that quite soon. The Minister, who visited Birmingham not long ago, was able to see the house-building difficulties.
  Birmingham has at present over 60,000 people on its housing register. A great proportion are still living in rooms, and the number of families affected grows every month. An hon. Member opposite said that this Government had never done anything to turn people into the street. This Government did nothing to help people when the Housing Repairs and Rents Bill was going through Parliament. They ignored our pleas for protection to be given to people living in rooms, who are being turned out and the judge can do nothing but give possession.
  Compulsory derequisitioning will in crease the difficulties of the housing authorities. As has been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Key), the chances of people who have been on the housing register for as long as five, six and seven years will be reduced. On their due date they will find that there has been either an eviction or a derequisitioning. That will increase the number of people for whom houses must be found, and those on the register who were due for a house will lose their place in the housing queue.
  It may be agreed that it still costs the Exchequer £4 or £5 million to subsidise these houses, but we should not and can not measure the lives and happiness of people in terms of a few pounds, shillings and pence. The Bill provides for local authorities to purchase houses when the owners so desire. I appreciate that there may be cases where the local authority may feel it undesirable to purchase property, but I wonder whether the Exchequer will make a grant towards the purchase of this property when local authorities wish to purchase it.
  I believe that this Bill will do harm. It will interfere with the work of the housing authorities in dealing with cases which are already on the local authorities' registers, and many houses which are de requisitioned will be left vacant for considerable periods. In my constituency, the former Minister of Housing and Local Government did not direct that there

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  should be compulsory derequisitioning but he requested the local authority to derequisition.
  I can show the present Minister a number of houses which, having been derequisitioned, have been vacant for six, nine, and in some cases twelve months, and they used to house two families and, in some cases, three families. Today, they are vacant and are waiting for someone to purchase them at the highest price. That is wrong. Just imagine that situation in a city where 60,000 people are on the housing list. The families from those houses had to jump the queue and take municipal houses in advance of people who were already on the register.
  I do not wish to detain the House much longer; some hon. Members have already taken up too much time by interruption. I hope the Minister will have second thoughts. I hope he will recognise the damage that he is doing, will accept the Amendment, and will take the Bill back. I feel confident that local authorities would thank him for helping them by taking the Bill back. I am sure that my local authority has not agreed to the Bill. I believe that the Minister has had a deputation from the City of Birmingham on the subject of derequisitioning; if not, he is to have. I can show him the head lines of a Birmingham newspaper—and not a Labour newspaper—condemning de requisitioning because of the difficulty it would cause the housing management committee in that city.
  Mr. Hay: Which paper?
  Mr. Shurmer: The "Birmingham Mail." There is no Labour newspaper in Birmingham.
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: The hon. Gentleman has omitted to men tion—as he might well do because of its insignificance—the paper called the "Town Crier."
  Mr. Shurmer: The hon. Gentleman has lost his way. The "Town Crier" stopped publication two years ago.
  If the Minister will withdraw his Bill, I am sure that he will earn the gratitude of many families in large towns and cities who, otherwise, will be prevented from getting houses to which they are entitled, through the necessity to house other people from derequisitioned property.
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: I want to make only a very brief and modest contribution to this debate. But I do want to try to do two things. First, I want to welcome the Bill in general. It has been rightly called a "bare measure of tardy justice." That is the phrase used by "The Times." Hon. Members opposite may prefer the editorial columns of "The Surveyor" just at present, but I feel that in this case "The Times" has hit the nail on the head.
  We have to recognise that the requisitioning of property and the continuance of property in a requisitioned state is a temporary and undesirable state of affairs. It cannot go on for ever. If we contemplate its going on for ever, or even for a very long time with no determined effort to check it, we accept the revolutionary doctrine that the central Government should be a housing authority.
  Secondly, I want to address my attention to the astonishing Amendment which I find on the Order Paper. It refers to the Bill as
  "a Bill which contemplates the eviction of occupants of requisitioned houses in 1960 without providing for their rehousing …"
  Now, I bring to this Bill a mind unencumbered by the experience which encumbers the minds of other hon. Members, many of whom have made notable contributions to this debate, and it struck me that, on the face of it, there were two quite astonishing things about the juxtaposition of this Bill and this Amendment. It seemed to me surprising that this Amendment should completely ignore the provisions in the Bill for ensuring that those people who are now in requisitioned premises should not be homeless in 1960.
  It seems to me that there is a provision in Clause 4 whereby owners might offer tenancies to tenants at restricted rents. It seems to me, secondly, that in Clause 11 there is a provision whereby local authorities might themselves take leases of the houses and let them to tenants of whom they approve. It seems to me, thirdly, that in Clause 11 there is a provision whereby a local authority might itself purchase houses at vacant possession prices and accommodate therein the tenants who had been occupying those houses when requisitioned.
  It may be debatable whether or not these Clauses are well conceived, but what

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  cannot be open to debate is the fact that they are in the Bill. Therefore, it is astonishing to find on the Order Paper an Amendment in the name of right hon. and hon. Members opposite, who have presumably read the Bill, saying that this Bill
  "contemplates the eviction of occupants…without providing for their rehousing."
  What astonishes me even more is this. If hon. Members opposite do, in fact, recognise that there are these provisions in the Bill, what they are saying is this, "We know there are provisions in the Bill which put certain responsibilities on the local authorities, but we do not believe the local authorities will carry them out." If the Bill does provide for the rehousing of tenants at present in requisitioned properties, then the Amendment is an insult to the capacity, integrity and humanity of local authorities throughout the kingdom.
  It is on these two grounds that I want to draw attention to the patent prima facie absurdity of this Amendment. I do not know whether it is more deplorable that it should have escaped the attention of hon. Members opposite that there are these provisions, or that they should think that local authorities are unfit to carry them out. Not only does this Bill put upon local authorities certain responsibilities but it appeals for its effectiveness to the ultimate sanction, which is public opinion, which, in turn, is responsible for the election of local authorities. I therefore submit that this Amendment is mischievous, insulting and ill-conceived, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will be heartened by the encouragement which we give him on this side of the House to proceed with a timely and well-conceived Measure.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. Julius Silverman: I do not desire to follow the arguments of the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) except to say this: it has already been pointed out several times that the provisions of Clauses 4 and 11 are subject entirely to the landlord's consent. The local authority can ask the landlord to grant a statutory tenancy if he is agreeable. The local authority can go to the landlord and ask him to grant a lease, providing that he is willing.
  Sir Leslie Plummer: Can invite him.
  Mr. Silverman: The local authority can invite the landlord to sell the house, but cannot compel him.
  Mr. Powell: Yes, it can.
  Mr. Silverman: I do not agree with the hon. Member; the authority cannot compel him to sell and there is no provision to that effect in the Bill.
  Mr. Hay: This is not the only piece of legislation which the hon. Member should have in mind.
  Mr. Speaker: I cannot have two hon. Members on their feet at the same time. Unless the hon. Member who is addressing the House gives way, no other hon. Member has a right to interrupt him.
  Mr. Silverman: I have no objection to giving way.
  Mr. Hay: I was drawing the hon. Member's attention and that of the House to Part V of the Housing Act, 1936, which, in terms, gave local authorities power to acquire existing houses for carrying out their housing functions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) emphasised, they can do so compulsorily; that is a power here and now.
  Mr. Silverman: I am sorry, but as far as I recall the 1936 Housing Act there are two powers—power to acquire land compulsorily for the purposes of building new houses and power to buy houses by negotiation. I do not know of any local authority which has ever exercised a power under the 1936 Act to go to an owner and buy his house compulsorily.
  Mr. Hay: I suggest that the hon. Member should have a look at the 1949 Housing Act. It made a number of Amendments, which I think were passed by a Parliament of which he was a Member.
  Mr. Silverman: I have already studied both of these Acts. I think the hon. Member will recollect that when we discussed the Housing Repairs and Rents Act we minutely examined the provisions of both the 1936 and the 1949 Act. I persist in saying that there is no such pro vision for compulsory purchase. Certainly, if there is, it is never exercised, and I should have thought that was sufficient proof. All that this Bill does is

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  to enable local authorities to invite the landlord to sell. There is nothing in the Bill which suggests compulsory powers. If such a right were to be given, presumably it would be specifically mentioned, and it is not.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) specifically asked this question: if the land lord does not consent to one of these courses of action, what will happen to the tenant in 1960? The answer is that he will be a trespasser and can be turned out. It is true that the local authority can then make provision for him out of its pool of houses and, as a consequence, he as an individual will not suffer, but people who are waiting on the housing lists will suffer.
  Mr. Iremonger: I thank the hon. Member for giving way so courteously and I am sorry to interrupt him after he has given way several times. He was commenting on the point which I made in my speech. He said, quite rightly, that the provision for allowing the tenancies to continue depended on the landlord's consent, but I submit to the House that he has overlooked the point which I made with reference to Clause 11 in which it is laid down that local authorities may, in the open market at vacant possession prices, purchase other houses wherein they may accommodate tenants who have been turned out.
  It is necessary to have the three stages in mind whereby these arrangements can be made—first, to persuade an owner to accept a tenant; secondly, to obtain a lease and accommodate tenants in a leased house; and, thirdly, to buy a house on the open market. If local authorities apply all three stages they are bound at some time to reach a satisfactory conclusion.
  Mr. Silverman: What the hon. Gentle man has just said amounts to a complete withdrawal of his argument. He now adds that it is possible for a local authority to buy other houses. Of course it is; that has always been so, if the authority is prepared to buy at the ridiculous scarcity values existing at present. Of course authorities can buy houses at prices which give enormous profits to owners. That has always been possible. But that will not solve the problem of these tenants.
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  I want the House to consider what the position will be in such a city as Birmingham. The problem in Birmingham may not be as bad as that in London but perhaps I may show how bad it is likely to be. There are now almost 1,900 requisitioned houses in Birmingham. It means that under the provisions of the Bill they will have to be derequisitioned at a rate of 400 per annum.
  At present, about 3,000 municipal houses a year are being built in Birmingham. Of these, about 2,000 are required for slum clearance, for other priority considerations such as evictions or tuberculosis cases, demolitions or such special cases as that; which means that the general pool for lettings of houses, together with re-lets, will be about 1,500 per annum.
  Thus, almost one out of every four of the inadequate number of houses at present being provided for tenants on the register—60,000 in all, with more than 30,000 lodger applicants, with families-will be taken for the purposes of providing accommodation for tenants of derequisitioned houses.
  This is an extremely serious problem for a city like Birmingham, with an in creasing population and with a steadily diminishing area of land available for building—an area which will have disappeared completely within the next three or four years. It means that many of the applicants on Birmingham's housing register will have to wait many more years because of this piece of legislation.
  I think that the terms of the Amendment are entirely justified. This is entirely a landlords' Measure which provides in every respect for the needs of the land lord. It provides no security whatever for the tenant and it makes no provision not only for the present tenants of these houses but also for the inflated registers of many of the large cities, containing the names of thousands of people who are waiting for houses and at whose expense this Bill will be carried out.
  6.40 p.m.
  Mr. James Mclnnes: I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Erdington (Mr. J. Silverman) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his argument and that my English colleagues will forgive me if I take up six or seven minutes to deal specifically with

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  Clause 16, which concerns itself with the proposals of the Government for Scotland.
  Since the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is here, I wish to ask him the reason for the insertion of this Clause in the Bill. I may be told that the Public Accounts Committee recommended to the Treasury that Government advances to the Scottish Special Housing Association should be subject to statutory limitation so that Parliament could exercise control. But I think I would be right in asserting that in making that recommendation the Committee did not lay down any specific period to which the statutory limitation referred.
  If the answer is that the Government has been guided by the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee, I want to be assured that this Clause has not been inserted with some other motive. Perhaps I might not be very short of the mark if I suggested that one of the reasons for the inclusion of the Clause is a desire on the part of the present Government to lessen, if not entirely to abolish, the activities of the Scottish Special Housing Association.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman will remember that at the beginning of last year he received representations from the Scottish National Building Trades Federation and the Federation of Civil Engineering Contractors, Scottish Section, who expressed a desire that the activities of this Government-sponsored body, with its direct labour department, should be considerably reduced. In answering Questions in this House in April last year, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman indicated quite clearly that he was cognisant of those representations and assured us that there would be no lessening of the activities of the Scottish Special Housing Association.
  I want to give one or two figures which would appear to indicate that there has been a considerable lessening of the activities of this Government-sponsored body. Since 1952, the number of houses under construction has decreased each year. In the direct labour department the number of houses under construction has decreased in the last three years. The number of employees in the employment of that department has gone down from a little over 2,000 to about 1,300. The proposals in the Bill seek to limit the financial advances made by the Secretary
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  of State for Scotland to the Scottish Special Housing Association to a sum not exceeding £75 million.
  I ask the Joint Under-Secretary what period had he in mind when he included that sum in the present Bill? Was it to cover a period of three, four, five, or seven years? From an analysis I have made from the annual report of that body I find that the total capital expenditure, which fairly represents the total advances made by the Government, in 1953 stood at £42 million. In 1954, it went up to £50 million and it is safe to assume from those figures that next month the total capital expenditure will exceed £60 million. Those figures reveal that in a period of less than two years we shall have reached the figure of £75 million. What, therefore, is the purpose of including a provision of this kind in this Bill?
  If the Scottish Special Housing Association is to plan properly ahead it will have to be given some assurance, probably at the end of next year, that a further sum is to be guaranteed to it. Do I understand that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will be coming to Parliament next year and asking for an additional £25 million for this organisation? If that is the purpose he has in mind it would seem to be a stupid procedure and a waste of Parliamentary time. Surely he could have included a provision in the Bill which would have carried the Association over the next six, seven, or eight years instead of placing it almost on an annual basis.
  Has the Joint Under-Secretary included this figure in the Bill to placate the building trade employers and civil engineers who made those representations to him? Incidentally, those representations were made through the Tory Central Office. The employers' organisations desire very much that this Government-sponsored body should go out of existence altogether. I hope that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will always remember the words he used in a letter to the Tory Central Office. They were:
  "It is essential that the Government should have some independent means of checking prices such as is provided by the Scottish Special Housing Association which worked in the closest co-operation with my Department. It will be appreciated that Scotland derives great advantage from the Scottish Special Housing Association in that it provides houses

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  for the local authorities in hard hit areas with out any charge on local rates. A widespread attitude of hostility by the employers in Scot land to the Association might well result in the loss of this additional Exchequer help to Scotland, a prospect which is not to be con templated lightly."
  I hope that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will very adequately and fully explain why he has taken the opportunity of this Bill to make the provision instead of in other Scottish housing Bills which already have been dealt with. The Public Accounts Committee recommendation was made as far back as 1953. This proposal could have been included in at least two Scottish housing Bills since then. I am told that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman did not want to include it because those Bills were of a controversial nature—as if this Bill is not of a controversial nature.
  Quite sincerely, I wonder what is the purpose of taking the opportunity of including a Clause of this kind, which has absolutely no connection with requisitioning and things of that kind, in this Bill. It seems a very sudden move on the part of the Government to lose the Clause, as it were, in the complexities and intricacies of the Bill as a whole. I hope that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will be honest and tell us precisely what he had in mind when he included the Clause in the Bill.
  6.48 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Commander T. D. Galbraith): Perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House if I intervened at this stage to deal briefly with the Scottish aspect of this Bill, and also with the observations of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) when I deal with Clause 16.
  In opening the debate this afternoon, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government explained that the main purpose of the Bill was to provide for the transfer of requisitioned houses to local authorities for a limited period of five years, after which their right to hold these houses would cease. The provision effecting this transfer and making other related arrangements are contained in Part I of the Bill. The House will have noted from Clause
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  20 that Part I, with the exception of Clause 14, does not apply to Scotland. The reason is that the number of houses now under requisition in Scotland no longer presents a problem of any magnitude.
  In the immediate post-war years considerable use was made of powers under Defence Regulation 51 to take possession of properties for housing purposes. The peak of requisitioning was reached in 1949, when 2,354 properties, containing 3,565 separate dwellings, were under requisition. In that year, the then Secretary of State for Scotland, who at that time was the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), in view of the powers which had been conferred on local authorities by the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1949, decided not to authorise further requisitioning for housing purposes, except in the most exceptional circumstances, and also that the process of unwinding the requisitioning scheme should be begun by the return of properties to owners.
  Since then, no properties have been requisitioned for housing purposes, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been pressing local authorities to release to owners properties which they have held on requisition. The result is that the problem has practically disappeared. At the moment, only 74 houses in Scotland are under requisition, and I expect that by the autumn of this year all but a mere handful of this residue will have been released. In these circum stances, my right hon. Friend felt that it was unnecessary to apply to Scotland the new powers contained in Clauses 1 to 14 of the Bill.
  I do not want, however, to disguise the fact that there may be a small number of houses in remote areas, where alternative accommodation is difficult to come by, which will remain under requisition after the date when the Bill reaches the Statute Book. Until that small hard core has also been released, which, I hope, may be possible by the end of this year or early in 1956, the power of the Secretary of State under Defence Regulation 51 to hold requisitioned properties for housing purposes must be preserved. That is achieved in Clause 14 (2) of the Bill.
  I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the local authorities for the very effective co-operation which they have given to my Department in an effort to

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  solve this difficult problem. When building materials were scarce and the number of new houses which could be built was, therefore, limited, the Department of Health for Scotland made special allocations of houses to some of the local authorities to assist them to rehouse families who were occupying requisitioned premises. Apart from that, how ever, the local authorities by themselves have made very special efforts to hasten the return of requisitioned houses to their owners, and it is right that I should acknowledge that in this House.
  The other provisions in the Bill which apply to Scotland are contained in Part II, in Clauses 15,16, and 17. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the object of Clause 15, which deals with the period of the repayment of sums issued from the Consolidated Fund to meet the cost of the temporary housing scheme under the 1944 Act. The Clause, in effect, deals with a purely accounting technicality, and I want to make it abundantly clear that the change relates solely to the central arrangements for repayment of the sums which have been issued from the Consolidated Fund to meet the cost of the manufacture and erection of the temporary houses. The existing financial arrangements between the Exchequer and the local authorities in connection with the temporary housing scheme remain unaltered by the Clause.
  Now, I come to Clause 16, with which the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central, was concerned. As the hon. Member said, the Clause imposes a statutory limitation on the amount of the advances made from the Consolidated Fund to the Scottish Special Housing Association. I assure the hon. Member that the limitation is included in the Bill following the recommendations contained in the Report of the Public Accounts Committee.
  The Scottsh Special Housing Association's operations have all along been subject to effective administrative control by my Department, which has to determine the size of the building programme and the areas where the houses are to be built. The cost of the houses which are to be built on any site has been subject to the Department's approval in the same way as the cost of local authority houses.
  In its Report for 1952–53, the Public Accounts Committee drew attention to the absence of any statutory limit to the
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  advances which could be made to the Association out of the Consolidated Fund, and recommended that a limit should be imposed so that, as the hon. Member rightly said, there might be Parliamentary, as distinct from Depart mental, control over the Association's operations. The limit imposed by the Clause is £75 million, which covers the advances which have been made hitherto, amounting to £52 million. When the balance of £23 million which remains is approaching exhaustion, I have no doubt that Parliament will be asked to consider the extent to which the limit should be raised to permit the Association to continue with its work.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: That may be so, but does not the Clause put it in such a difficult form that a new Act of Parliament will be needed to increase the amount? Would it not have been sufficient to make provision for it to be done by Statutory Instrument, so that it would come before Parliament in that way and not as a Bill, for which it might be difficult to find time? It would have been better to do it administratively and to get the consent of Parliament to alter the sum in the same way as is done under many other Acts of Parliament.
  Commander Galbraith: I will give attention to that point, but I think the right hon. Member will approve of there being Parliamentary control, as there is in every other case of expenditure by Government bodies.
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said that he will consider the point made by my right hon. Friend, but if we pass the Money Resolution tonight will it not be too late to give further thought to it if an alteration is necessary to provide for the kind of arrangement which my right hon. Friend suggests?
  Commander Galbraith: It may be that the hon. Member is right—I am not commenting upon that; but surely, opportunities will be found for doing as I have suggested, so that Parliament is invited to consider the extent to which the limit which is now imposed should be raised.
  I know that hon. Members on both sides of the House are very interested in the contribution which the Scottish Special Housing Association has made

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  to the solution of the housing problem in Scotland, and I am glad to tell the House that since the war the Association has provided some 30,000 houses. These have been built in the areas of greatest need. In addition, many thousand houses have been provided to meet the needs of miners who have been transferred from dying to expanding coalfields.
  I want to make it perfectly clear that what is proposed in Clause 16 is not to be interpreted as involving a limitation of the Scottish Special Housing Association's housing programme, which will continue at its present level in the meantime. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central drew my attention to a number of facts which seemed to him to indicate that there was an intention to reduce the Association's activities. The simple explanation is that the reduction in the number of men employed from 2,000 to 1,500 on the direct labour side arises through the cessation of traditional building and the turnover by the Association to the building of the no-fines types of house, with all the mechanical equipment which that involves, which has resulted in fewer people being required to be employed on the job.
  Clause 17 provides for the extension to schools and other educational buildings of the power to relax building regulations. This gives effect to a recommendation of the Select Committee on Estimates in its Report for 1952–53. Educational building work in England and Wales has long had statutory ex emption from the local by-laws, and in Scotland the Secretary of State has had powers for many years to relax the building regulations in the case of housing. These regulations include not only local building by-laws, which I am glad to say are in most towns in Scotland drawn in accordance with modern ideas, but also statutory provisions which go back as far as 1892. It is these provisions which are found to be acting as a very serious obstruction to the introduction of modern ideas and methods.
  The need to comply with these regulations makes the development of some new methods of school construction virtually impossible at present, or so costly as to make it difficult for education authorities to provide schools by these new methods at reasonable cost. The Guest Committee
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  on Building Legislation is examining the whole question of bringing these statutory provisions up to date, but the completion of the Committee's Report and the passing of any legislation that may follow will necessarily take considerable time. The substantial expansion of the school-building programme which is now in progress means that we must make some interim measure of relief available.
  The Clause will not give overall exemption from by-laws with regard to all new schools, nor does it in any way compel education authorities to reduce their standards of construction. It will, how ever, enable education authorities to adopt methods of construction which it would have been difficult or impossible to use under existing regulations. I assure the House that approval will not be given to any proposals which do not fully safe guard educational standards and, what is more important, the safety and health of the pupils and staffs.
  Mr. Mclnnes: Surely Clause 17 is de signed for the specific purpose which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman says he is attempting to avoid, that is, to reduce standards. That is what has been holding up approval by his own Department and education authorities. After hearing the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, I am more convinced than ever that Clauses 16 and 17 ought to form part of another Bill.
  Commander Galbraith: The hon. Member is of a very suspicious turn of mind. I can only explain the truth and the facts. If he is so suspicious and he cannot accept that, there is nothing I can do about it. The fact is that Clause 17 is introduced into the Bill because it is essential that we should get on with school building. In that connection, I remind the hon. Member that the programme is very nearly twice as big in value as it was last year.
  It is quite obvious that Scotland's interest in the Bill is considerably less than that of England and Wales, but the pro visions as they apply to Scotland are useful provisions. I hope, therefore, that the House will approve them. I commend them to the House.
  7.3 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Elwyn Jones: I find it a somewhat sombre thought that, whereas in the whole of Scotland there are only 73 requisitioned

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  premises, in my unfortunate constituency of West Ham there are 2,300. Nevertheless, I shall try not to make the amount of time I shall take equally disproportionate. We have heard from the Government benches about four or five speeches. None of them has left us on this side of the House one jot happier about the fate of the licensees of requisitioned houses as from 1st April, 1960. We want some specific answers from the Government Front Bench to some specific questions.
  Are they saying, as some hon. Gentle men opposite have said, that the Government propose to encourage local authorities to use compulsory powers as from 1st April, 1960, to acquire houses, if it be necessary even requisitioned houses? That is a specific question to which we want a direct answer. There is a great deal of doubt among the lawyers as to what are the precise powers of local authorities under the various Acts to which references have been made. What is clear from the Bill, at any rate, is that it certainly gives no compulsory power to the local authority.
  Clause 4 is perfectly clear. It states:
  "Any local authority, shall, if so required by the Minister, serve on the owners of such requisitioned dwellings as he may specify … a notice inviting those owners to accord to the licensees of the dwellings the status of statutory tenants …"
  That is how it stands. How different are the provisions of Clause 4 from the pro visions of Clause 6, where it is said that
  "If the Minister is satisfied, on representations made to him by the owner of any requisitioned house … that the owner will suffer severe hardship unless he is enabled either to obtain vacant possession of the house or to dispose of his interest therein … the Minister may give directions to the local authority requiring them … to release the house to the owner …"
  The contrast is all too vivid.
  If the answer is that we do not need to put in this Bill the fact that local authorities have all the necessary compulsory powers and we shall authorise and en courage them to use those compulsory powers, let it be said from the Front Bench opposite. I noticed that the Parliamentary Secretary was extremely non committal about it. If he cares to answer that specific question now I am willing to sit down, but I expect that he will not happily accept that invitation. He is a new Minister and, if I may say so, a most
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  competent one, and I do not want to harass him about this matter, but we shall wait with great interest the words of the Minister on this subject at the end of the debate.
  There is another big imponderable which has put the House in great difficulty in discussing the Bill at all. It is the question of financial provisions. It is no use saying to West Ham, "You have powers already under other Acts to acquire houses compulsorily." There are two difficulties. The first is the simple physical fact that there are no houses to acquire, a physical fact which escaped all the intellectual ingenuity of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). There is also the simple financial fact that there is not the money in the "kitty," if I may use a non-Parliamentary expression. It is no use putting a series of 25 per cent, obligations on an impoverished community like West Ham which has one of the highest rates in the country. It cannot be done.
  It is not a question of our suggesting that local authorities are lacking in humanity. It is nothing of the kind. Of course they are not. The local councillors have these desperate problems on their doorsteps every day of their lives and we unfortunate Members of Parliament get the backwash of them every time we go to our constituencies.
  West Ham is admittedly exceptional and I am not seeking to draw a general picture from its problem, but it is more general than the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West has con ceded. Nevertheless, I am concerned with the fact that to the specific area of West Ham the all-important question is: what formula will be applied by the Minister in interpreting Clause 10 (2), which states:
  "If the Minister is satisfied in the case of any local authority that the additional burden placed on their rates in consequence of the provisions of this Part of this Act … is greater than is reasonable, he may … make to them a special grant …"?
  What is the test?
  Is the test the size of the problem? Is it the impoverishment of the local authority? We really should not have been left in the dark about this in the course of the debate. We all observed it and I must make this comment—that it was most unsatisfactory for the Minister to be appearing to encourage the Parliamentary Secretary to avoid dealing with this pro-

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  blem by saying, "I will deal with all this at the end of the debate." That was of no assistance to us in considering this matter and so we are in the dark as to what is financially involved. What I suspect it will involve is a wholly inadequate financial provision for these unfortunate blitzed areas, which will once more be left to "hold the baby"—again I am using an unparliamentary expression.
  During the war, blitzed areas such as West Ham had the great privilege of visits by the Prime Minister. They were the most vital areas as far as the morale of the people of Britain was concerned. They were hailed as heroes of the resistance of the people of Britain—they were the personification of it. If their morale had cracked we should have been in dangerous straits as a little island.
  These areas, which we represent in the House in this debate and whose cause we are seeking to advocate, if we were to have another war, would be the blitzed areas again. They are the key centres of the economic and industrial life of Britain. And how shabbily they have been treated since the war. From time to time the West Ham authority has been given special grants, but those grants are coming to an end, the last one is being made this year. And, unless the interpretation of Clause 10 (2) is to be generous, once more the nation will be passing on to a little local community of hard-pressed people responsibilities which the nation, through the Exchequer, ought to carry.
  I say, further, that the effect of this Bill on an area like West Ham will be merely to perpetuate the slums. For what is the local authority to do? First, it has no means to acquire an unlimited number of houses; secondly, there are not the houses there. So what is it to do with these 2,300 families, a large proportion of whom will still be on their hands as licensees on 1st April, 1960? In my submission, the optimism of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West about the high percentage of those now in requisitioned premises who will have acquired the status of statutory tenants by 1960, is greatly exaggerated.
  In my view, there is no foundation for it and, therefore, it means that if the West Ham authority by 1st April, 1960, has to house these thousands of families
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  living in requisitioned premises the first to suffer will be those now on the priority list. There are about 13,000 families on the West Ham priority list at present and there are thousands and thousands of others on the general list with no hope of being rehoused. Many are in squalid, miserable homes, breeding disease and ill-health and being denied all that we have sought to achieve in this House in the last fifteen years in the way of bringing decent social conditions to our people.
  Those problems will be accentuated by this Bill, not relieved. What is used to rehouse the inhabitants of the requisitioned premises must be denied to those who are living in slum conditions. What are the Government going to do to help these people? How does this Bill help the areas most affected? It will make a great political demonstration in Bourne mouth and Sussex. This will be yet another blow struck for the freedom of the property owner. The Tory Party has been described as the party of landlords and the landladies and this Bill is, in deed, a manifestation of that old and, we were hoping, somewhat qualified tradition; but here it comes once again.
  If the Bill is intended to deal with the question of requisitioning where it is most acute, then it does not tackle it, and I ask the Government to look at it again unless they are to be accused of the most appalling cynicism when they call for a crusade to clear the slums. Do they really mean that, because this Bill will perpetuate the slums in areas where the biggest concentration of them exists?
  7.16 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Doughty: The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones) referred to an area where this problem is admittedly most acute, but he did not refer to Clause 3 (2) of the Bill, which was presumably inserted specially for that type of area. By that provision, the Minister has power, upon representations made to him before the five years are up, to retain under requisition houses in any area. So if there be an area where the local authority cannot deal with the situation within five years, it can be dealt with by retaining requisition, which only goes to show that the Bill covers all possible cases.
  Mr. Lewis: Is not the hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the fact that even before this Bill is passed the Minister— in the case of West Ham, which my hon. and learned Friend was quoting—will not even now grant requisitioning powers? So if he will not do it now, how does the hon. Member think it will be done in five years from now?
  Mr. Doughty: It is not a question of granting new powers but of retaining premises already requisitioned. The hon. Gentleman need not be so worried about the feelings of the Minister, who is well capable of looking after West Ham—and East Ham as well.
  This Bill is welcome because, unfortunately, if requisitioning were allowed to go on for too long a period it might become part of our national existence, which would be a bad principle. It is now 10 years since the end of the war and since the houses of these people were taken, contrary to their wishes—often causing great hardship to people who had saved up to buy those houses—and they were denied all access to their own property. Is it to be said that the extension of that practice is to be encouraged by the House? I think not.
  Requisitioning may have been vitally necessary in 1945 when there was no building going on, when a great deal of property had been destroyed, and when the problem was probably more acute than it had ever been in this country. But those days are over, and this Bill must be read in conjunction with the building progress that has been made since the war and, may I add, particularly since 1951. There are still five years to go before the guillotine falls and in that time there cannot be fewer than l½ million new dwellings built.
  Mr. Sparks: Not in the affected boroughs.
  Mr. Doughty: Will they not help to solve the problem which this Bill may raise? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members opposite say "No," but do they imagine that a million or a million and a half houses will remain unoccupied?
  Mr. Sparks: They will not be in London; they will be in Scotland or North Wales.
  Mr. Doughty: Have hon. Gentlemen opposite not heard of the new towns
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  built for the purpose of housing people in London and other big cities? Have they not been to see people from their own constituencies who have gone there? I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot be as blind as all that.
  Mr. Sparks: They will not take these people.
  Mr. Doughty: Perhaps the persuasions of hon. Gentlemen opposite may encourage them.
  Mr. Lewis: The people cannot afford the costs involved in moving to new towns because the cost of living keeps rising under this Government.
  Mr. Doughty: I am sorry that hon. Gentlemen opposite are so disappointed at seeing so many houses being built. I can well understand their disappointment, owing to their failure to build houses themselves.
  The Bill will ease a great hardship for many people. If one looks at the provisions made for those at present in occupation of other people's property by reason of reacquisition, one sees that they are considerable. I have examined them carefully. I see that there is power to negotiate with the owners of that property to accept the occupiers as tenants under a statutory tenancy. Whether that will be a success remains to be seen. As long as we continue to subsidise people in other people's houses by making the landlords charge what are really only pre war rents, it is not likely that the Clause will have very wide application.
  The Clause which deals with the purchase of houses at present occupied is the crux of the Bill. It is all wrong that for 10 years people's property should be occupied by others against the owners' will. It is right that those who continue to live in that property should negotiate with the owners for its sale on the basis of vacant occupation—not at any inflated value but at a fair market value. If that is done, and there are five years in which to do it, it will be the proper way to settle the problem.
  I should like the Minister, when he replies, to deal fully with that aspect, and say how he proposes that these negotiations should be carried out. Will it be done by ordinary notice to treat, or will the matter go to arbitration in order that

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  a settlement is arrived at as to what is a fair market value for the freehold of the property? If that were done tomorrow in regard to these houses the question would be solved. If these occupiers desire to remain in the houses, and the local councils desire them to remain there, that is an end to the whole question. That, as I say, is the real crux of the whole Bill.
  I am surprised to see that an Amendment has been put down for the rejection of this very excellent Bill, which personally I commend to the House. It says:
  That this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which contemplates the eviction of occupants of requisitioned houses in 1960 without providing for their rehousing and, while protecting landlords from special hard ship, gives no similar protection to occupiers.
  The Amendment is entirely incorrect and untrue.
  Mr. Sparks: But it is not.
  Mr. Doughty:It is untrue, because the Bill, both in regard to the letting of houses and in regard to the purchasing of them, provides for the occupants' rehousing.
  Mr. Sparks: That just is not true.
  Mr. Doughty: It is no good the hon. Member saying that it is just not true.
  Mr. Sparks: It is not, and this is propaganda.
  Mr. Doughty: This has to be combined with the fact that the needed houses are now being built, so that the need for requisitioning has already gone. I commend this Bill to the House and 1 personally will give it every support.
  7.23 p.m.
  Mrs. Lena Jeger: While I do not consider that the financial provisions of this Bill are its most important part, I must refer again to the vagueness of Clause 10 (2) and press this point on the Minister, because as a member of two local authorities I am not entirely unaware of the negotiations that have been taking place. As I understand the representatives of the local authority associations suggested to the Minister that the discretionary grants payable by the Minister should not be left entirely to his discretion but should be based on a formula. The Associations
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  have sent proposals for such a formula, and the Minister stated that, whilst he could not give any undertaking about the Government's administration of an Act which had not been presented to Parliament, nevertheless he considered that the proposals were not unreasonable.
  It is extraordinary that local authorities cannot be told about a formula because it has not been put before Parliament, and Parliament cannot be told about it because it has not been communicated to the local authorities. We are in a most extraordinary position, and I hope that before this debate concludes this will be cleared up. It would have been for the convenience of the House if information about the formula had been given to us at the beginning of our discussions today.
  I promised to be very brief, but I must say I think the hon. and learned Gentle man the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) must get a little clearer his facts about the sad story of the owner-occupier. Those are the cases which always get the maximum publicity and which, of course, appeal to the feelings of us all. But the Requisitioned Property Owners' Association does not claim that more than 10 per cent, of the people who own requisitioned property fall into this category. By far the largest number are not owned by people who are willing to live in them themselves. The local authority with which I have long been connected has taken a most sympathetic and helpful attitude wherever possible about de requisitioning in cases of genuine hardship of an owner who wants to take over possession himself. The fact that 61,000 properties have been derequisitioned suggests that local authorities have not been unreasonable.
  The difficulty in central London is far more with the owner of streets and streets of houses, with the speculator and with the investment trust. We have some experience of what happens when houses are derequisitioned. We have heard some very rosy prophecies from hon. Members opposite about the kindness and good ness with which landlords will consider the needs of tenants when this Bill be comes law. In my experience—and may I be forgiven for saying that I have been chairman of a housing committee in St. Pancras and am a member of the housing committee of the London County Council—what happens when places are derequisitioned falls under two heads.

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  We have derequisitioned several houses where the Minister has told us that we could not spend the money which we thought was necessary for repairs. He said, "You cannot spend this public money on repairs, you must derequisition the house." We have done that, and I could take hon. Members opposite round St. Pancras and show them these houses still standing empty and unrepaired. I, for one, would like the powers of requisitioning not brought to an end but extended and strengthened, because it is a bitter injustice to the people of this country, particularly to the people of London, that there should be empty properties while there is such human misery in homelessness.
  The second result of derequisitioning has been not that the poor war widow or the wounded ex-Service man about whom we have heard so much, enters rightly into the occupation of his or her own hearth and home, but that the speculators, who own the majority of this property, put a piece of lino and a table and a chair in each of the rooms and let these houses not as units of accommodation but room by room as furnished accommodation for two or three guineas a week. That is what we are to encourage even further. That is what this Bill enables owners of hundreds and hundreds of houses in London to do.
  Why hon. Members opposite should imagine that, instead of letting these houses with bits of furniture at the rate of two or three guineas per room per week, the landlords are to keep on the council tenants as statutory tenants at controlled rents I simply cannot under stand. It must be due to their lack of experience of landlords in London.
  Then there is the matter of going to court on this subject, and we shall have to ask the Minister to consult his colleagues in the Government on the question of legal aid for these people. At present, there is no legal aid in the county courts and the police courts, which means that the tenants, who are usually the poorer people, in these circumstances are at a disadvantage.
  What is also not clear in Clause 6 is what is to happen to the tenant when the court has to give possession to the landlord. Is there a statutory duty on the local authority to rehouse, or is it just a question of the local authority in
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  its kindness and goodness trying to put these people somewhere at the expense of another desperate family? We must have a clear answer to that and I would recommend the Minister to see his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance about these cases, because there will be a need for vast increases in Part III accommodation under the National Assistance Act.
  Many of us have been rather local in our speeches and I hope that the House will forgive any parochialism that is creeping into this debate, but I feel that it is our duty to put the cases of our constituencies even at the risk of seeming repetitious to hon. Members opposite. Perhaps I may for a moment mention Holborn, which I have the honour to represent.
  During the war, at least 650 homes were lost in the little Borough of Holborn. Since the war, 266 have been built. We have not yet come near to making good the losses of the war. Now we are told that we must derequisition 924 units which are an essential part of our housing accommodation. Some hon. Members opposite have said that there is all this wonderful new building going on. May I tell the House to how many new dwellings the Minister has consented in Holborn? He has approved the erection of 14 new flats in Holborn.
  Major Sir Frank Markham: For how many was he asked?
  Mrs. Jeger: We are negotiating and hoping for another 50, but the present situation is that we have been given per mission for 14 new flats to be built in Holborn.
  Sir F. Markham: The Minister has so far approved every application that has been put up by Holborn.
  Mrs. Jeger: That is not true, certainly not of past or present Ministers. We are hoping that there will be further development in this area, but we must ask the Minister for special consideration. Sites are running out and there is very little land and we cannot, faced with this derequisitioning Bill, possibly build accommodation for 924 families.
  The answer comes from the other side, "What about the new towns and out county housing estates?" I know there is no lack of courage opposite and per-

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  haps if I went with the Minister, he would agree to go to Covent Garden and tell some of the Covent Garden porters who live in Holborn that they should live in Boreham Wood, or Harlow. We have to recognise that many people are tied to central London, to these boroughs about which we have been talking, by their jobs and by the vital contribution they make through their work to the community. That makes it impossible for these other remedies to take effect.
  In St. Pancras we have been a little more fortunate in that we have by now just about overtaken our war damage, but we are left with 7,000 desperate applications in our housing list. We have tried to acquire some requisitioned houses, but it takes at least six months in each case, or even more, and 1 hope that if the Minister wants local authorities to be encouraged in this activity, he will try to speed up the machinery to do it.
  What the Bill really says to us is that for years and years there must be a stand still on our waiting lists. We have got to turn all our new accommodation to meeting this problem. We are put in a position where we will never be able to get people out of damp basements, often where we have children coming into dangerous con tact with tuberculosis. All we get is a Bill which is completely a landlord's Bill. If one reads it carefully, and I have tried to read very carefully, always it is a question of whether or not the landlord agrees to keeping the tenant, agrees to sell his house, agrees to leave his house. The local authority, with the best will in the world, has no powers of compulsion and will certainly not be able to deal with the problem.
  We are throwing back on to the families involved our own bankruptcy in dealing with the problem. The Bill is a completely unnecessary Bill, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) made clear. Two years ago we had a Working Party Report in which it was recommended that local authorities which had more than two families per 1,000 of the population in requisitioned premises should be asked to make the maximum possible reductions year by year.
  The fact that 61,000 premises have been de-requisitioned shows that local authorities were trying to carry out the
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  spirit of that recommendation. I am sure that if we could have carried on in that way, with local authorities being helpful in cases of genuine hardship, we would have dealt with the problem in a much more humane, fair and just manner.
  7.36 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: I am sure that the House will have listened with care to the very persuasive and effective speech which has just been made by the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. L. Jeger). I thought that she was not quite right when she said that a large housing programme would not have its effect on the boroughs in London and in outer London. There is bound to be movement. While it is true that a number of people are tied to their jobs there will be movement of children to different areas as they grow up, and there they will follow their occupations.
  Certainly there must be a greater movement to the expanded towns and the new towns which are being constructed for that very purpose. A difference will be made by the fact that by the time the guillotine falls by 1960 there should be another 1¾ million new houses, and there is bound to be a movement in our population which will be wholly helpful.
  Mr. Sparks: Can the hon. Member tell us how that will affect the boroughs that have no land on which, to build?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am glad the hon. Gentleman mentioned that, because it will be the whole purport of my speech later, if he will bide his time and wait in patience.
  I rather hope that we shall hear from the benches opposite the extent of the housing programme which they would undertake. Are they still wedded to their 200,000 houses a year, which was their maximum at the last General Election, or do they now recognise the fact that we can, under a Conservative Government, get 350,000 new houses each year? By 1960 that will make a difference of ¾ million new houses. Under the Conservative programme, we shall get 1¾ million and under the Socialist programme only 1 million, according to the programme the party opposite put forward at the last Election. That must make a very big difference to the movement of the population.

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  I represent a borough which has some very special problems: I am sure that is so in many of the boroughs in Greater London. During the war the Borough of Hendon was a reception area, and many people moved into that borough during these serious times. We now have more than 800 requisitioned houses. The difficulty of the borough in honouring the provisions of the Bill is that it has obligations first and foremost to the very long queue of Hendonians who are waiting to be rehoused in Hendon.
  There are more than 4,000 Hendon people who have been waiting, the great majority since before the war, for houses in Hendon. There are an additional 800 in requisitioned property, and more than 90 per cent, of those 800 are not Hendonians. They came to the Hendon reception area from other boroughs, the majority from south-east London. There is a real difficulty there, and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will give some attention to this matter, because not only must we house the people in our own queue, but also the people from the requisitioned property. But we in Hendon are surrounded by the Green Belt, and, therefore, we are woefully short of land on which to carry out this programme.
  Dr. Morgan: I live in Hendon; I know that there is some spare land.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I have also lived near there for some time. Surely the hon. Gentleman does not think it would be right to build on parks or open spaces which the Abercrombie Plan reserved for recreation and other purposes. We should be letting down future generations if we built on these valuable open spaces.
  We are also deterred by the fact—I do not complain, but it is an additional problem—that we have an L.C.C. housing estate right in the middle of Hendon, and the L.C.C. has decided that it cannot house the sons and daughters of tenants on its estates. We have the Burnt Oak Estate, with some 12,000 electors, an estate which was built in the period between 1929 and 1933. It thus happens that the sons and daughters of the tenants are reaching the age when they marry and have children, and they want houses of their own. That is an additional demand on the small amount of housing space in the Borough of Hendon.
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  I hope that the Minister will examine these problems most sympathetically, particularly the cases of boroughs which are prevented from building out because of the Green Belt, and which are beset with the following four factors in this tremendous problem. They have long waiting lists; and a large number of requisitioned houses; L.C.C. out-county estates for which they have to accept responsibility; and a number of Regular Service men coming out of married quarters in depots in the area and joining the queue for houses.
  I believe that this Bill is a step in the right direction. I have always found in my monthly "surgeries" that on the whole people living in requisitioned property take a very objective view of this matter and realise that the time has to come when the property has to be returned to its owners. We need to pay special attention to their difficulties because, in many cases, the land is just not there to meet the needs of such boroughs as Hendon.
  7.43 p.m.
  Sir Leslie Plummer: The hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing) said one thing with which I heartily agree. He did not want to see a situation arising in his borough in which the parks and open spaces were built over in order to provide sites for houses. The reason why I agree with the hon. Gentleman is that in Deptford we have no parks or open spaces that are worthy of consideration as building sites.
  In fact, in the whole of the borough we have no full-sized football pitch on which young men, or even children, can play a proper game of football. We are a typical south-east London riverside constituency which has particular problems, with which I want to deal tonight, following the example of many hon. Members who have made constituency speeches in this debate.
  Dr. Morgan: But you are very healthy.
  Sir L. Plummer: I do not live in the borough.
  There were 2,000 houses completely destroyed in Deptford as a result of enemy action, and of the remaining 14,000 houses scarcely one remained unscathed. About £4¼ million has been spent on war damage repairs to these

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  14,000 houses. That should be an argument for believing that there are vacant spaces in Deptford, but there are not. The pre-war density of 50 houses to the acre has gone, and we are now down to half that figure—27 per acre.
  Having suffered that frightful holocaust, what has the borough done? It has built 516 houses and flats since the war. It has some 450 huts and factory-manufactured houses, and, in addition, it has 1,382 requisitioned premises of one kind and another, housing about 2,000 families. It has nearly 3,000 applicants on its waiting list.
  There is no room at all in the borough for any big housing expansion. In fact, if all the housing sites that are likely to be available in Deptford between now and 1960 were used solely for the purpose of rehousing the people who live in requisitioned property, provision would be found for about 500 people. Yet we have 3,000 on our waiting list, 2,000 families in requisitioned houses, and 450 people living in squalid huts and pre-fabricated houses, to which, I am sorry to say, the Parliamentary Secretary gave a testimonial. I should like to see those huts and prefabs pulled down long before 1960.
  The problem is clear. Many of our larger requisitioned houses, have as many as four families living in them, while in one I think there are eight. Yet the Bill ensures that no owner will have to take back, against his will, only part of his house, so that, if we are to derequisition one house, we have to find accommodation not for one family, but, in cases such as I have described, for four families. Trying to deal with that situation in the conditions I have mentioned is like trying to fill a colander full of water. It just cannot be done; it is an impossibility.
  Every time that we in Deptford try to build new blocks of flats, we have to rehouse more people than are supplied by the units of accommodation that we build. There is a big housing estate scheme in Clyde Street, where, in order to house 40 families in the flats now being built there, we have to find alternative accommodation for 48 families before we start. The result is that it is an almost impossible situation in which to try to
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  obtain a significant accretion of new houses for the people in the borough.
  Deptford has already had its own policy of derequisitioning. From what we have heard from some hon. Members opposite, it would appear that borough councils have been tardy in dealing with derequisitioning. It is not so at all in Deptford. In recent years, we have released about 82 dwelling houses containing 140 families. It is not an easy job to do that when there are 3,000 families knocking on the door of the housing officer every week, every month, every quarter, and every year, asking for the accommodation which they are seeking.
  We did not start this business of requisitioning in Deptford. We did not seek to do it. It was the Coalition Government which came along and said that it was necessary, in the interests of the war effort, that we should do it. I am not denying that Deptford Borough Council were enthusiastic about it, because they were looking for accommodation for many of their people. Nor was accommodation difficult to find, because, at that time, there was a queue of landlords and estate agents at the town hall, begging to have their properties requisitioned.
  I am satisfied, from all the correspondence I receive and from talking to the people who come to see me, that today the overwhelming majority of people in Deptford whose property is requisitioned are perfectly happy to leave the situation where it is. The people who are the clamorous and vocal minority, who threaten to put up independent Conservative candidates in some of the marginal Tory constituencies in south London are those who want to secure vacant possession of their houses and to sell them on the market at a high valuation.
  Other hon. Members have dealt with the question of cost. Boroughs which, like mine, have suffered desperately from enemy action are now being asked to accept a burden which places like Black-pool, Bournemouth, Berwick-on-Tweed, and Warwick are not called upon to bear. The areas which suffered the most war damage will find that their burdens are the greatest. Let me look at the cost to Deptford.
  In the year ended 31st March, 1954, our requisitioned houses were cost-

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  ing roughly £51,000 a year. For the period ending 31st March this year the cost will be about £35,000, and it is estimated that the cost next year will be about £32,000. That is a drop of about £19,000. We increased the rents at the urgent request of the Minister as the result of the Working Party's Report, although it was not a popular thing to do, politically, in Deptford. The borough council did it, and the Exchequer will benefit by a saving of £19,000, up to the time that it washes its hands of the matter.
  I am not saying that the borough council will not get benefit as from 1st April, 1957, but we are already putting quite a burden on the people of Deptford. When the terms of the Bill are implemented, 25 per cent, of the cost will be borne by the borough council. We shall have to find £8,000 a year, which is equivalent to a 3⅓d. rate. That is not all. Some hon. Members have talked as if that is the maximum cost to a borough, but it does not include leasing, purchasing, or paying compensation to owners. The very minimum that it will cost is 3⅓d.
  We have heard rumours that there is to be a formula which will ensure that some borough councils will not have to pay more than a few coppers, but what is 3⅓d. but a few coppers? What could be appreciably smaller than those few coppers. This is a very dangerous matter, and I recommend to the representatives of local authorities, when they go into the jungle with this Government, not to be misled. The formula will say that the Minister shall decide, in his discretion, whether there is likely to be an unbearable burden upon any local authority. On this side of the House we are not prepared to give that discretion to the Minister, because we do not trust his discretion.
  If he wants, and must have a formula why does he not go back to the formula of what we know as the Addison Act of 1919? Houses were then built on the basis that the Government provided the whole annual loss on the houses with the exception of a 1d. rate. I do not know whether that would work now, but it is far more equitable. A borough knows what is to happen. It is better than hinting that there will be a formula which will only cost a few coppers and then saying, "We shall have a formula at some other time."
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  On the basis of the 1954 figures, Dept-ford would have to levy a 5¼d. rate. This and other comparative figures are subject to alteration but as a comparative guide it would cost St. Marylebone a 1⅛d. rate and Westminster a 1⅛d. rate.
  Finally, I would ask the Minister whether Clause 3 (2) really means, as was suggested by some hon. Members on the benches opposite, that the Minister may permit authorities to continue with requisitioning after the Bill comes into force, and after 1960? I am not saying that it does. There was an hon. Member on the Government benches who took a belated interest in the Bill, although he had only been in the House for about an hour, and who said that the Bill made it clear that requisitioning could be carried on. If it is true that requisitioning is to continue, what did the Parliamentary Secretary mean when he said that the Bill was to bring requisitioning to an end? If it does mean that what have we been arguing about all today? If it does not mean that, as I suspect it does not, would it not be a good idea,, instead of giving a brief at the last moment to hon. Gentlemen who have not been very prominent in their attendance, for the Parliamentary Secretary to see that his supporters are given some easy guides to the Bills which the Government produce? Those hon. Members would then not add more confusion to that which the Government supply.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Higgs: Nobody will criticise hon. Members, and particularly hon. Members on the Opposition side, for calling attention to the problems of the areas which they represent, but it is right that one should take also a broad view of the whole problem with which the Bill seeks to deal. I make no secret of the fact that the requisitioning of property is not a problem in my constituency. I live under the shadow of an authority about which a great deal has been said earlier in the debate. It is the Birmingham City Council, about whose area I shall have a few remarks to make.
  It often happens in a debate like this that hon. Members criticise a Bill and ask for more details about it without saying what they would do if they had the responsibility of introducing a Measure to deal with the problem. Even the Amendment gives no hint of what the Opposition would do if they were in power.

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  That is a question which we are entitled to ask them to answer. The Amendment criticises the Bill for protecting landlords while not protecting occupiers and that is all. We are entitled to have some elucidation on this point. Are we to understand that the Opposition, if they had had responsibility, would have introduced a Measure somewhat similar in terms to the present Bill, but with greater protection to occupiers and licensees of requisitioned property? If the Opposition would do that, there is not very much separating us from them.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) said that we have confidence in the local authorities, although many of them are Socialist-controlled, that they will do their job. Hon. Members on the Opposition side believe that they will not do it. That is the only difference between us.
  Mr. Sparks: I am sure that the hon. Member does not want to misrepresent the desire of local authorities to co-operate in the derequisitioning of these dwellings. He must see that it is a sheer physical impossibility for a large number of these authorities to do what we are now asking them to do. It is absolutely impossible.
  Mr. Higgs: That intervention is like all the hon. Member's interventions, a very thoughtful one, but it does not help me to find out what hon. Members opposite would do about this problem, if it is different from what we are suggesting in the Bill. If they would keep things as they are, it makes nonsense of some of the criticisms which hon. Members have made.
  They talk about insecurity, and about those who are now licensees becoming insecure in their tenure as a result of this Bill. On that basis they are at the moment as precarious and as insecure as it is possible for them to be. If we do not trust the local authorities, then they have exactly the same security as a lodger, and no more. They can be pitched out without even the formality of a notice to quit. Is that the situation which hon. Members opposite seek to perpetuate, or would they perhaps arrive at some other solution? If so, what is that solution? They ought to tell us.
  Mr. A. Evans: The two things which would clearly be done by a Government
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  that faced up to this problem fairly would be, first, to allow a longer time for local authorities to deal with this problem, and to arrange that time in relation to the size of.the problem for each year, and, secondly, to see that the financial burden was not placed unfairly on the local authorities for what, after all, is a national problem.
  Mr. Higgs: I am sure that my right hon. Friend, who is to wind up the debate, will be grateful for that intervention. It does not bear much relation to the Amendment and I hope that the hon. Member will compose his differences with his right hon. Friends before his right hon. Friend winds up for the Opposition. If it is not that they seek to perpetuate the insecurity of the licensees who now occupy requisitioned premises, perhaps they will bear in mind the premises themselves.
  Surely, of all the properties in the country which are neglected, and which have been neglected in times past, these properties are the very ones where the explanation stands out for all to see. These properties are, to borrow a metaphor from an hon. Member opposite, "nobody's baby." These houses, at the moment, are ones on which we cannot expect the local authorities to spend money for repairs and improvements. No one would say that so long as they remain requisitioned the owners ought to improve and repair them. It is neither in the interests of the occupiers of these premises nor in the interests of the premises them-selves that the present state of affairs should continue. Nor is it really in the interests of good government.
  I thought we had reached something approaching agreement that as time goes on we ought, subject by subject, so to dispose matters that where necessary temporary legislation was replaced by permanent legislation, or done away with. I do not think that anybody has quarrelled with that general principle. War-time emergency legislation ought to go, and where there is a case for any pro-vision to go on perpetually, then it ought to foe set out in an honest-to-goodness statute. That, after all, is precisely what this Bill does with regard to requisitioning.
  It does no more and no less. It merely says that the wartime expedient of requisitioning ought to go; that the local authority ought to make up its mind

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  either to make a permanent compulsory order for the purchase of the property, and keep it on a permanent basis, or give it up. That is the choice which the local authority is given, and that is the choice which, in many respects, my right hon. Friends in different Departments have been endeavouring to make in the past three years with their emergency legislation.
  The hands of the local authority, in making up its mind and carrying its decision into effect, are helped in more than one way by the provisions of this Bill. For instance, it is true that one can say that there is no compulsion upon the owner who, under Clause 4, is approached by the local authority to take on the licensee who is now living in his requisitioned house as a tenant, or that the local authority should step out and the owner should become the landlord again, and the licensee should become the tenant on a protective basis.
  It can be said that few owners will accept such a bargain. They all want, on taking possession, to sell and make a profit. But the local authorities can give the owner a very strong hint. They can say, "We offer you an opportunity of taking on the licensee as your tenant and of having your property back, but we would remind you that we have the power of compulsory purchase. Of course, you can, if you like, say 'No,' but then you may lose your property." That is a very strong argument to use. It is like the sergeant-major's volunteer; it gives the owner very little option.
  Mr. Sparks: If the hon. Member is saying that that is the policy put forward from the Box opposite, I shall be very interested to hear that confirmed by the Minister.
  Mr. Higgs: I am not saying that it is anything other than a provision in the Bill. I am only pointing out what is in the Bill. Whether the hon. Gentleman likes to say that it is incidental, I do not know, but under the Bill one can offer the owner the opportunity of having his house back and of taking on the licensee as tenant. I think that under the Housing Act, 1936, that point has already been dealt with. The local authority has power to requisition. I have not heard any suggestion that we should repeal the 1936 Act. If the hon. Gentleman cares to suggest it, no doubt it will be considered.
  Mr. Sparks: I hope that the hon. Member is right.
  Mr. Higgs: A good deal has been said about the rights and interests of those who are occupying these houses at present, and a good deal has been said about what is to happen to them. I do not dissociate myself in any way at all from the interests of people who, in times of difficulty, had to accept accommodation which probably they did not want. They would probably much rather have had other accommodation if it had been available. But that can be carried too far.
  At least in the case of Birmingham, and my constituency is adjacent to that city, people are by no means reluctant to accept accommodation in the adjoining country areas. It may be true to say of some London boroughs that there are people living in requisitioned accommodation in those boroughs to whom it would be a hardship if they were offered houses in the out-of-town estates or new towns. These are the special problems of London, about which I am not particularly qualified to speak.
  I can, however, say from my own experience that when one analyses the housing lists of the three local authorities in my constituency, one finds among them, either openly or to some extent concealed, a large proportion of people who are rightly the housing problem of Birmingham itself. There is no unwilling-ness on the part of the citizens of Birmingham to live even in disused bus bodies in my constituency.
  Let us be quite clear about this. It may be, if a house is derequisitioned, that the occupier now living in the house may have to leave if the local authority decide compulsorily to purchase. But that house has become available for somebody else when the family which is now in it leaves, and it is not necessarily true to say, as hon. Members opposite have suggested, that all these houses are snapped up for sale with vacant possession. The hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) and another hon. Member made the point that these houses were empty when they were derequisitioned. Hon. Members opposite cannot have it both ways. They cannot say, on the one hand, that there is a queue of people waiting to buy houses with vacant possession and, on the other, that the houses are standing empty.
  Mr. Sparks: It depends on the condition of the house.
  Mr. Higgs: If it depends on the condition of the house, surely it follows that if houses are in such bad condition that even with the demand as it is no one will buy them, the local authority can acquire them very cheaply.
  Mr. Sparks: And spend a lot of money putting them right.
  Mr. Higgs: Local authorities can acquire them at the market value. They will never have to pay more than that, and they will have the best evidence in the world that the market value is exceedingly low.
  If housing authorities really want to acquire properties on a permanent and fair basis and make proper houses of them as part of a long-term housing plan, this Bill will provide another opportunity. One has to consider the Bill, not in isolation but in conjunction with, say, Part I of the Housing Repairs and Rent Act, under which slum schemes are being worked out by every local authority.
  There is another aspect of the Bill as it affects the owner. It may be that hon. Members opposite would like a good deal more property to be publicly owned, but I believe that even they, in their wildest moments of Leftism, would never say that the houses and their owners should be chosen by chance. I have heard a number of proposals put forward for the nationalisation of land and property, but never a suggestion that it should be done by ballot. That is what happens here if the present situation is perpetuated. The owners of houses now requisitioned were not chosen by any means which had regard to the desirability of the property, or the desirability of its being publicly owned, but simply by lot or accident during the war, when conditions upset any sort of planning.
  Dr. Morgan: They were chosen according to need.
  Mr. Higgs: No, in many cases the houses were chosen because they happened to be empty at the time—and in many cases they were empty because the owner was serving with the Armed Forces.
  If we are to have property taken into public ownership—and I hope we shall
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  hear a little more about that from hon. Members opposite—let it at least be done by some fair method and not just by accident or chance. It is just to avoid that kind of thing being perpetuated that this Bill rightly forces upon local authorities the decision either to continue permanently that public ownership of a house by making a compulsory purchase order —and justifying that order—or to de-requisition the house and allow it to return to the owner, who has the best right to it.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. B. T. Parkin: If the Minister wants to have any self-confidence left at all when replying to the debate I can well understand his prudence in absenting himself from the Chamber during nearly all the debate.
  Some of us on this side have listened with careful attention to the speeches made from the back benches opposite, because we need some assurance that there are people who believe in the principles which appear to be embodied in this Bill. This is a wanton, unnecessary and cynical Bill. It seems so bad that it cannot be true. It is like the Housing Repairs and Rent Act. Nobody believed that that Measure could be as bad as it seemed. We had to wait twelve months to learn by experience that it was, in fact, increasing the prosperity of the wealthier landlords, and doing nothing to help the poorer landlords to meet such difficulties as exist in my constituency.
  There was a moment during the Parliamentary Secretary's speech when I thought he was about to speak about something other than the rights of land-lords. His voice became almost reverent for a moment when he said that the object of the Bill was to liquidate the debt incurred in the Second World War. I thought, "Surely this means the 8,000 people in my constituency who live in requisitioned property because their homes were destroyed." But no—it did not mean that.
  The hon. Gentleman went on to explain that he was protecting the rights of the owners. There was not a reference to those other people. It is not the fault of those 8,000 people that they are living in requisitioned houses. It is not their fault that the number of properties destroyed

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  around Paddington Station is equal to the number requisitioned. But because Paddington Station is there, it is a national responsibility and we all owe a home to those people.
  Various consoling arguments have been advanced by hon. Members opposite. They say, "Do not worry. As people move out of these properties others will move in. Those properties will not be wasted. The local authority can always acquire them if it raises the money. You are making a lot of trouble about nothing." We have not heard from those hon. Members any suggestion that there is any social responsibility at all attached to housing. I say that there is a 100 per cent, over-riding responsibility on the shoulders of the nation to rehouse those who lost their homes as a result of the war. We believe that that responsibility extends very much further. The hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Higgs) ex-pressed the hope that some of us might say so, and I say it now. That is the difference between us in approach—an absolute, irreconcilable difference.
  As hon. Gentlemen opposite very kindly and nicely expounded their views the criterion always came down to "what can you pay?"; "pay a fair market price"; "buy with vacant possession." No further priority was mentioned. We completely disagree with hon. Members opposite about the spirit of the Bill.
  The Parliamentary Secretary used another phrase. He said that it is necessary to give a financial spur to local authorities. That is what is running through the minds of hon. Members opposite all the time—that we must have a spur for local authorities. What am I to say to railway men from Paddington? Am I to say, "The view of Her Majesty's Government is that you have to have a financial spur, so you had better either go on strike or take on a job less socially useful so that you can pay the price of furnished accommodation in Paddington"?
  What is the financial spur to the local authority? Does it really help the Borough of Paddington to be faced with a Measure like this, which will double its housing rates next year? To what does that spur authorities, except to spur on those who have to pay most of the rates to carry on the "chuck 'em out" process
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  which has already been described as the purpose of the Bill?
  A spur would be a financial incentive —a reward—an inducement to make or save some money. What is the spur in having to do something which will cost more money? In Paddington, a great deal has been spent on requisitioned houses. There are about 2,400 families and nearly 700 requisitioned properties, and the total number of units of accommodation controlled by the council at present is very small indeed. It is only between one-quarter and one-third of the accommodation occupied by the number of families in requisitioned properties.
  This is a problem which a borough like Paddington can hardly face at all in the circumstances created by this Bill. It has done its best to reduce the numbers; it has reduced them from 2,800 to 2,400, and I do not apologise for repeating the circumstances of my own borough. Every hon. Member who speaks for London will give slightly different figures, but they add up to the same pattern and problem. The cost of these requisitioned proper ties in Paddington is equal to 2s. 8½d. in the £ on the rates; 25 per cent, of that would double the expenditure on housing next year. That is not an incentive. It is not a financial spur.
  We have a waiting list of 4,000 now, but we can only complete between 200 and 300 units of accommodation each year. So we can throw away the waiting list and devote the next ten years to rehousing those people from requisitioned properties, provided we can find some more sites. At present, we can only find sites for a dozen or so at a time. If any messages do get to the Minister before he returns to the Chamber, I should like to know whether he will tell us if there is any information about the subject of the high flats which it was proposed to build in Paddington, and about the decision on the question of high density, on which the borough council has been kept waiting for months.
  Without slum clearance we cannot get sites, and we must have sites if we are to build these high flats. We must be allowed to get on with the programme and not be bedevilled by a sudden crisis precipitated by a Bill of this kind which will double our expenditure on the rates

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  and which will make it impossible to reduce the waiting lists.
  The hon. Member for Bromsgrove asked presumably the next speaker from these benches to say what we would do. Of course, the answer is to acquire these properties. They should have been acquired a long time ago. There are no other properties to acquire in a place like Paddington. We must secure possession of those which we have got. We must extend the principle of municipal ownership, as we believe in extending that principle in the case of housing to let.
  We demand an answer tonight from the Minister which, if it is to satisfy the problem of the London boroughs, can only be one answer. It must be an answer which will admit that if the Minister intends to give this property back to the owners and enable them to have their share of the reward, as has happened with the rest of the landlords, the road hauliers and so on, it must be done from the Chancellor's fund and not from the rate fund.
  Therefore, the Minister should tell us that he accepts responsibility, that he will do all the things which his back benchers have been saying on his behalf during his absence, that it will be easy to acquire properties, that there will be a considerable Treasury grant and that it will all be made completely painless.
  It is too much to expect that the Minister will come back from wherever he has been to in the mood of a good Samaritan. I do not expect him to do exactly what the good Samaritan did, but he might get near it. He might say, "Give us a couple of coppers,
  "and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I came again, I will repay thee."
  In other words, the Minister should give us tonight an assurance of the smallest possible token contribution from the boroughs; he should tell us what is really meant by "a financial spur" and give the boroughs a chance to expand their control over housing in order to speed up their own housing programmes, instead of being dismayed by the introduction of this Bill.
  8.25 p.m.
  Major Sir Frank Markham: As my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Higgs) mentioned, most speakers on the benches opposite have been playing at "constituencyeer-
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  ing"—if there is such a word. Hon. Members opposite have paraded their knowledge of their constituencies before this House; I make no apology for not following in their footsteps but, instead, directing attention to the Bill as a whole.
  It is high time we recognised that the major principle behind this Bill is to stop new requisitioning in the first place. I think that if we were to ask any body of citizens in this country whether they thought that new requisitioning was fair or unfair, there would be a unanimous vote that it was unfair.
  Mr. A. Evans: New requisitioning?
  Sir F. Markham: Yes. I wish the hon. Member had read the Bill before he came here. If he had done so, he would have realised that part of the object of the Bill is to make quite certain that there shall be no new requisitioning.
  Mr. Evans:The argument is not whether there should be any further requisitioning. Nobody has said that there should be. The argument is about how we are to dispose of the existing requisitioned premises.
  Sir F. Markham: The hon. Gentleman reinforces my point that he has not read the Bill. The first three lines of the Financial and Explanatory Memorandum state that the power of the Minister to requisition in future is repealed. The first thing that this Bill does is to prevent any future requisitioning.
  Mr. Evans: Surely we are not now using the time of the House arguing whether or not further requisitioning should take place. The argument now is how to deal with the existing premises which are already requisitioned.
  Sir F. Markham: I will come to that in a minute, but will the hon. Gentleman agree that the first point which is made in the Financial and Explanatory Memorandum is that the power of the Minister to requisition premises for housing purposes is repealed? Are hon. Members in agreement on that point?
  Mr. Evans: Yes.
  Sir F. Markham: I am glad that there is something in the Bill which hon. Members opposite recognise is good. What we say is that this power ought to have been relinquished much earlier. If this Bill

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  has no other purpose than to take away a very essential power in wartime, but one which has been continued too long since the war, then by unanimous opinion in this House it is a good one. But hon. Members opposite must be consistent—
  Mr. M. Stewart: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman arguing that if one agrees that the first four lines of a Bill contain something of merit, one is, therefore, obliged to describe the Bill as a good Bill?
  Sir F. Markham:No, but the hon. Gentleman will surely agree with me that the speech which preceded mine condemned the whole Bill without exception. Now it appears that on Clause 14 the whole House, including the Labour Party both inside and outside the House, agrees with the Government. I am very glad to have that confirmation.
  Mr. Parkin: The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows perfectly well that—
  Sir F. Markham: Hon. Members, with their constant interruptions, make it very difficult for me to deliver my speech.
  Mr. Parkin: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is making it difficult for himself.
  Sir F. Markham: I hope they will bear with me as I bore with them—perhaps with inner impatience, but with outer patience.
  Having established the first point, by unanimous agreement of all parties, that the Bill stops further requisitioning—and I am sure that you, too, agree with me there, Mr. Deputy-Speaker—we come to the second point: that the broad system of requisitioning which is established will, with very few exceptions, be ended in five years' time—with very few exceptions. There is agreement on that point.
  Mr. Parkin: How does the hon. and gallant Member know if he does not give way?
  Sir F. Markham: I will give way if the hon. Member wishes to argue the point.
  Mr. Parkin: I do not.
  Sir F. Markham: Either the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene or he does not.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): I must remind the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) that this is not the Committee stage of the Bill but the Second Reading.
  Sir F. Markham: Thank you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for safeguarding my privileges.
  The second important point in the Bill is to end requisitioning, by and large, within five years. I am convinced that the majority of thought in the country is in favour of that. The average Englishman, Welshman, Scot, Northern Irishman, has a very great sense of justice, and it is manifestly unjust that, ten or fifteen years after the war, there should be this difference between one kind of property and another. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] If hon. Members wish to interrupt, will they stand up and make their interruptions and not mutter them?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the hon. and gallant Member would direct his remarks to me, the position might be easier.
  Sir F. Markham: Of course I will, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
  I would remind the House that the second point in the Bill is to end the major part of requisitioning by 31st March, 1960. The exceptions to that are given in Clause 3 (2), which I think covers most of the difficult situations which hon. Members have mentioned in their constituency speeches. In the exceptional cases about which we have heard, Clause 3 (2) can be invoked, and the position then is that the Minister, in consultation with the local authority, has a discretion.
  Mr. Parkin: The hon. and gallant Member is quite right.
  Sir F. Markham: I go further on this point and say that I am quite certain that any impartial Member of the House would agree that the Bill is overdue. Some of us have very few requisitioning problems in our constituencies and others have a great many. The probability is that had the party opposite been returned to power at the last election, it would have had to bring in a Bill like this to meet this very point. Indeed, the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. A. Evans) agrees that his party would have produced a Bill of this kind. He gave two changes from the present Bill—

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  first, that the time would have been lengthened, possibly by another five years, and, secondly, that there would have been amendments to the financial conditions. I think I am quoting him correctly.
  Mr. A. Evans: What I said was that if and when we were in power again we should have to deal with requisitioned property. But I do not support the Bill.
  Sir F. Markham: I am obliged to the hon. Member, because his intervention shows that I have made my second point. Not only is the whole House in agreement that there should be no further requisitioning, but hon. Members are also agreed that existing requisitioning should come to an end within the measurable future. That is agreed by the whole House, and this Bill does those two things.
  Mr. Gibson: It is not agreed by the whole House.
  Sir F. Markham: I am sorry that the Labour Party is again divided. I thought there was a temporary unity, at any rate.
  Dr. Morgan: The hon. and gallant Member should not be flippant, but should try to make a decent speech.
  Sir F. Markham: If hon. Members would let me get on with my speech instead of interrupting me so much, I might be able to meet all their requirements.
  May I turn from the main Clauses, with which I am in hearty agreement, to the terms of the Amendment? In the many years during which I have been interested in politics and the many years during which I have been in the House, I have never seen such a misleading Amendment on the Order Paper of the House as that which appears today.
  Mr. Gibson: Live and learn.
  Sir F. Markham: The Amendment reads:
  "That this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which contemplates the eviction of occupants of requisitioned houses in 1960 without providing for their rehousing and, while protecting landlords from special hardship, gives no similar protection to occupiers."
  Everyone knows that that is just a farrago of nonsense. It does not tie up
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  with the majority of the speeches which have been made by hon. Members opposite and it does not even tie up with the two points which I have established and with which hon. Members have agreed— first, that derequisitioning is essential and, secondly, that there should be no more requisitioning in the future.
  Yet the Opposition have put down an Amendment which entirely ignores the terrific pace at which new houses are being built under the present Government. I could sympathise with the Opposition if we were building only 200,000 houses a year, but we are building 350,000 a year. Since the war 2 million houses have been built and in the course of the next few years 3 million will have been built.
  That is the majestic march of events under this Government, which the Opposition will not recognise. It is not the greatest thing we have done, but surely one of the most magnificent achievements of this Government is the success of its housing programme. Everyone must admit that we have not only achieved the target of 300,000 houses a year which we set at the last General Election, but have gone beyond it to 350,000. We have astonished ourselves and I think that the whole country is delighted by what we have been able to achieve.
  Had the party opposite been in power we might well have achieved only 200,000 houses a year and that with incredible difficulty. We might not yet have been thinking of hospitals and schools, but be limping along in that crippled, half-active Socialist State which the party opposite was trying to achieve. Instead, we have let the builders get on with the job and have given them every encouragement—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member is now getting wide of the provisions of the Bill.
  Sir F. Markham: The Amendment specifically says that we have not provided for the rehousing of occupants of requisitioned houses. I submit that we are providing for the rehousing of those people. Therefore, with great deference, I suggest that I am in order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member was in order in that part of his remarks, but he was extending his argument to hospitals and various other things.
  Sir F. Markham: Thank you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I realise where I have been in error and I will not offend again. 1 will keep to the part of the Amendment dealing with housing.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) is temporarily absent. Earlier in the debate he made a point, in an interruption, that in constituencies such as his the problem of providing for new housing was almost impossible because they have no vacant areas. We sympathise with him, but we are doing more than just expressing sympathy. As hon. Members know, it was the Government of the party opposite that began work on the problem of the new towns and extended towns. I do not think that any hon. Member opposite would object when I say that this Government have carried on the programme hon. Members opposite initiated with great verve and skill. No one can grumble at the development of new towns which is going on today.
  The hon. Member for Acton said that it was impossible to master this problem in his constituency. In the last three and a half years my constituency has taken 400 families from the hon. Member's constituency and rehoused them 50 miles away. In these difficult London areas, which were overbuilt a generation ago, the problem is not so much that of rehousing within the boroughs concerned but of decanting to the new towns and extended towns. The new towns and the extended towns have been a great success. I look foward to an acceleration of that programme in the future.
  I apologise for unnecessarily being the means of calling you to your feet earlier, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but if I was led astray it was through provocation by the party opposite. I hope hon. Members opposite will not disagree that this is a good Bill, a Bill they would have introduced, because something had to be done about this problem. It is sheer dishonesty to put down an Amendment such as they have put down and then vote for it.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. C. W. Gibson: I want at once to tell the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) that I think this is a rotten Bill and that I am opposed to it in every respect. The Bill is unfair to the tenant, nobody wants it, nobody has asked for it, and it passes on to the local authorities a big financial
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  burden which at the moment the Treasury is bearing. From my point of view, therefore, everything in the Bill is wrong.
  The hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Sir A. Hudson) was at pains to explain who, he thought, was in favour of the Bill. He said that none of the large property owners had asked for it, because they were doing very well on their present rents from the Treasury. Certainly none of the tenants have asked for the Bill. None of the borough councils have asked for it. Therefore, why are we having it?
  I suspect that the birthplace of the Bill is the Treasury, in Whitehall. For years past, the Treasury has been struggling to get what it calls the burden—now £4½ million—of the cost of requisitioned premises pushed off its own shoulders, in the hope that some of it will come off the shoulders also of the well-to-do and will find its way on to the shoulders of the poorer people. That is all wrong. It is bad finance in any case, and it is especially wrong when the whole reason for the requisitioning problem is that we tried to do something for the people during the war and we are still in difficulties because of the war.
  Hon. Members opposite forget that London had 80,000 houses completely destroyed during the war, and that we are only just catching up with that loss. In the meantime, many more houses have fallen into decay and have become slums. We are a long way from solving the housing problem, not only in the London boroughs, but in Birmingham and other places also.
  The properties which were requisitioned have been extremely useful to local authorities in easing some of the most difficult and painful housing tragedies with which they have had to deal. The fact that, in spite of the efforts which have been made during the last 18 months to derequisition a large number of these houses, 30,000 of them are still requisitioned in London, housing 53,000 families, is a sign of the intensity of the housing problem, which hon. Members opposite seem completely to forget. They are much more concerned about the interests of the owners of properties than about the human problems that we all deal with when we meet our constituents, and which we hear about when people come to us about housing problems.

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  The London County Council still has a waiting list of about 160,000 families, over 50,000 of whom are in the A category, which is the category of worst-hit families, who ought to be rehoused tomorrow, if only we could find the houses. The "Evening News" tonight is perfectly correct when it says, in an article headed "Housing Crisis in London," that if the London County Council is able to build every house it wants to build and can build under its organisation up to 1960, we shall still be 10,000 houses short in respect of families in London, ignoring altogether the 30,667 requisitioned houses.
  What is the sense of saying that the Bill is an attempt to solve the housing problem? It is nothing of the sort. It will intensify the problem in the London area, and I am very sorry that the Minister has brought it forward. I know that in the borough which I have the honour partially to represent, the right hon. Gentleman has made some inquiries. In Wandsworth, we have the worst problem of requisitioned houses, not merely in the whole of London, but in the whole country. The Minister represents a part of that area. Some of the requisitioned houses are in his constituency. I hope that the tenants who will be thrown out will remember it.
  In Wandsworth we had 6,780 requisitioned units, as they are called, 18 months ago. I want to make this point because the political control of the council happens to be one with which I disagree. The council has made a valiant effort to get rid of requisitioned premises. How far has it succeeded? At the beginning of this year the council sent to 2,031 owners invitations to take over houses in accordance with the terms of this Bill. I do not know whether the council had any pre-knowledge of the provisions of the Bill.
  The council invited the owners to take over the houses and accept the sitting tenants as statutory tenants. Not a single one of those owners replied to say that he agreed. There have been a few cases where the owner and the licensee have got together and made an agreement for the licensee to pay an increased rent. The council has derequisitioned such houses. But where, as the Bill lays down, the borough council invited owners of these properties to take them back and
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  receive the compensation which is now laid down in the Bill, taking the tenant as a statutory tenant paying the same rent, but with the difference between the licensee rent and the proper rent under the Rent Restrictions Acts guaranteed, not one of the house owners accepted the offer of the borough council.
  What is the sense, therefore, of trying to tell the House and the country that if we pass the Bill quickly, to provide that between now and 1960 borough councils can make arrangements for the landlords to take over the houses and accept the tenants as statutory tenants, everything in the garden will be lovely? The owners do not want that. Two houses in my constituency have stood empty for 12 months since they were derequisitioned. The landlords do not want them because it would cost more to make them fit to live in than anybody is prepared to spend. The only reason why the borough council does not pull them down is that the houses on either side might become unsafe if that were done.
  It is against all experience as well as common sense to expect that these tens of thousands of houses which have been requisitioned since the war will be taken over under the terms of the Bill. The experience of my own borough council during the last week or two has proved that. Therefore, that part of the Bill, just as much as the financial Clauses, is absolute nonsense.
  Why should the borough council pay 25 per cent, of the financial deficit? At present the whole financial loss is borne by the State, because the emergency was a national emergency. It was one for which none of us was responsible or could avoid, as I know. Seventy "doodle-bugs" dropped within half a mile of the house in which I lived. Hon. Members have asked what we on this side of the House have done. We had a working party which made certain proposals, under which there has been a slow but steady derequisitioning. There is no doubt that but for the extreme housing conditions in London we should have got rid of more derequisitioned houses than we have been able to do.
  We want properties for rental to be owned by the local authorities. Hon. Gentlemen opposite tried to make a fuss about what we on this side of the House stand for. We have shouted from the

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  housetops that if we win the next Election we shall give local authorities power to buy up vast areas of local property and to extend the principle of public ownership. We propose to do, in fact, what the London County Council has been doing in the last few months on a voluntary basis. It has bought three or four very large estates belonging to people like the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and this week it has announced an ambitious and imaginative scheme for re-development. Birmingham has done the same sort of thing in its area.
  I say, therefore, that we do not need this pettifogging, rather mean Bill to enable local authorities to get on with the housing of their people and to get rid of the slums. Derequisitioning must be done slowly, and there must be no injustice to the sitting tenant. No one on the other side of the House has replied to the point made earlier in the debate as to what is to happen after 31st March, 1960.
  The Bill is quite clear. It says that no requisitioning shall be allowed after that date; and, presumably, the inevitable is bound to happen. Thousands of tenants still in requisitioned properties will then be illegally in those houses, and will be turned out. They will be without the benefits of the Rent Restrictions Acts. I hope that the Minister will say something about that aspect, because it is going to be a tremendous bone of contention in the next few months, particularly in London.
  I do not want to use up all the time that is left, but I urge the Minister to do something about the Clause which deals with excessive expenditure, and tell us on what formula he is going to discuss it. I find that in the Borough of Wandsworth, as the Bill stands at the moment, the cost will be a 4½d. rate. I am sure that the local ratepayers' association in Streatham will have something to say about the Minister of Housing and Local Government imposing an extra rate charge on them, because they are already grumbling about the level of their rates.
  It is proposed that we in Wandsworth should pay 4½d. in the £ extra, but for what purpose? It is to relieve the Treasury of part of a charge. In Lambeth, I understand, it will mean a 4d. rate, and already in that borough the burden is reaching breaking point. One hon. Member told us how, in Camberwell,
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  it will mean a 6d. rate, and Poplar is grumbling about the inevitable increase in the rate charged for housing purposes. Before the Bill becomes law, the borough councils are entitled to know clearly and categorically on what basis the calculations are to be made in connection with heavy expenditure which would justify the Minister making additional grants.
  It would be much better, however, if the Minister took the Bill back and buried it. Let us have another look at the proposals of the Working Party on Requisitioned Houses and see if we cannot get, in consultation with the boroughs which have the worst problem, some organised plan for getting rid of this issue without punishing the tenants and without adding the problem to the already heavy burden on the shoulders of the local ratepayers, who in the main are people in the back streets.
  Unfortunately, owing to the way in which the Government Whip acted on Friday, I did not have a chance to say anything about the rate burden throughout the country. It is clear that there is a growing volume of opinion, not only among the people in the ordinary weekly-rented property, but among shopkeepers and businessmen of all kinds, protesting against the burden of the rates and against being saddled with a heavy charge merely because industry is excused 75 per cent, of its rate charges.
  Now, apparently, they are to be charged another 4d., 5d., or 6d. in the £ rate, merely to enable the Treasury to dodge a charge which is properly a Treasury charge, and which was justified by the national circumstances at the time. But those circumstances do not entitle the Government to come along with this proposition for the purpose of passing over to the ratepayers 25 per cent, of the cost of the derequisitioned houses. This Bill is not wanted, it has not been asked for, and, so far as I can see, nobody will give it a blessing.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. H. A. Price: The hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson) began by calling this a rotten Bill. In my view, it is a fine and courageous Bill and I have already written to my right hon. Friend to tell him so. It is another example, of which we have seen many during the past three years, of the way in which this Government have taken hold of knotty problems,

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  however difficult and unpopular it might have been to do so. [An HON. MEMBER: "Class legislation."] I am glad to learn that the Urban District Councils' Association and the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee have both agreed at least to accept and operate the Bill. I have not been surprised to find it opposed by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. There is a saying that sparrows have no rights when the hawks are about. To the Socialist hawk the landlord is a sparrow—
  Mr. Victor Collins: Some sparrow!
  Mr. Price: He has no rights whatever.
  If hon. Gentlemen opposite care to take a walk up Ludgate Hill, and then take the first turning on the left, they will find, surmounting a building known as the Old Bailey, the figure of Justice, holding a pair of scales. If they examine the pair of scales they will find that the pans are level. That is justice, and what this Bill does, is to try to hold the scales of justice level as between the tenant and the owner of requisitioned properties. It must not be forgotten that until now only the tenant has received justice, but the landlord is just as much entitled to it as the tenant. That is what this Bill, among other things, seeks to achieve.
  This Bill is overdue. The requisitioning of private property was agreed to during the war, but it is an infringement upon personal liberty which should be countenanced in this country only during time of war. It is wrong that it should be perpetuated in time of peace one day longer than is absolutely necessary, and it has lasted too long already although, of course, there are special problems in certain areas, about which I shall say a word in a moment.
  It has been said during the course of the debate that we are concerned only with the landlords in the sense that we are concerned with the owners of large blocks of properties, but that is not true. We are concerned with those landlords who intended to be owner-occupiers, but had their houses taken away from them during the war for various reasons, and who now want them back. It has been argued that these people can have their houses back by application to the local authorities and I have heard hon. Gentlemen opposite
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  say that local authorities administer that power wisely. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are as much entitled to their opinion as I am to mine, but I beg to differ. I am a member of a local authority with a Conservative majority but, nevertheless, I often find cause to quarrel with its attitude towards applications for the derequisitioning of properties owned by people who want to live in them and who, in my contention, have the right to do so. It is high time that this right was restored.
  Mr. Lewis: Would the hon. Gentleman be prepared to support a new Clause to the effect that houses will be derequisitioned on condition that the person is an owner-occupier and takes over only for occupation and not for resale in order to make a big profit?
  Mr. Price: That is always a condition upon which local authorities now insist. There is nothing new in that.
  Another point which I wish to make is that the application of the powers of derequisitioning as at present administered by local authorities is uneven. Different local authorities take different attitudes and that is wrong. Whatever policy is adopted, it should be even and equal throughout the country—and let us not forget that the Bill applies to the whole country and not just to London. The owners of requisitioned properties should not be at the mercy of inequality of justice which is being inflicted upon them at the moment.
  Sir Frederick Messer: Inequality of justice?
  Mr. Price: It has many times been implied by hon. Members opposite that every family now living in a requisitioned property will have to be evicted during the next five years. That is just not true. If it were, I agree that the problem would then be insuperable. The Bill contains provisions for families now living in requisitioned properties to remain in those requisitioned properties on certain conditions. It cannot be necessary for me, at this time of night, to detail those conditions.
  I hope that hon. Members will not mind if I make a point which has been made already. It is that during the next five years there will be provided 750,000 houses over and above the number being provided during the administration of the late Government. It needs less than 10

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  per cent. of those additional houses to accommodate all the families now living in requisitioned properties. The trouble is, of course, that they are not in the right places and I will come to that point in a moment. I deliberately leave it until the end.
  There are one or two points in the Bill which need clarification and I should like to put them to the Minister. The first comes in Clause 4 (4), which deals with the position where the owner of requisitioned property agrees to take over a sitting licensee as his tenant. It says that the tenant shall continue to pay the same contribution that he had been paying to the local authority and that the local authority should make up to the owner the difference between that and the statutory rent, but only for the period up to April, 1965. What happens after that is left undefined and I suggest that we ought to have some guidance. What happens at the end of that period? Does the tenant have to pay his statutory rent, or is the position dealt with in some other way?
  The second point is the position, to which reference has not yet been made, of leasehold property which has been under requisition. Many of these properties have been under requisition for 14 or 15 years. Leasehold properties which had leases with only twenty-five to thirty years to run at the beginning of that period now have leases with only ten or fifteen years to run and have considerably depreciated in value. I hope that my right hon. Friend will realise that this is a different problem from that concerning the owners of freehold properties. The owner of leasehold property is entitled to some compensation for the loss of value of his leasehold interest.
  My last point is that hon. Members sitting for London constituencies have referred to the particular problems of London and as a Member for Lewisham I appreciate their difficulty. Lewisham has nearly 3,500 families in requisitioned premises. If they are all to be rehoused in other properties in the next five years, that is a rate of 700 families a year; a quite impossible task. I know that that is not the problem for I believe that the majority will remain where they are, but that makes no difference to my point.
  I think it is quite wrong that this problem, and the housing problem generally in London, should continue to be dealt
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  with on a borough council basis. In my view, it is quite incapable of solution in that way. I do not believe that the housing lists in London have any relevance at all at the moment. I, like many other hon. Members, have a surgery on Saturday morning, and I can say that three out of four families who come to see me about housing are on both the borough council and the L.C.C. housing lists.
  Therefore, throughout London, we have this duplication of function, and I suggest that it is wrong, uneconomic, unwise and inefficient. I have suggested before, and I repeat it now, that the responsibility for housing in London should be handled by one body; if necessary, by a special body set up for the purpose, or, perhaps, an existing body could be used. This duplication of function should not be continued any longer. One body should be responsible for housing throughout London, for the expanded towns, the new towns and also for dealing with this problem of rehousing those families who will be as it were dehoused as a result of this Bill. I am quite sure that the Bill will work well. I welcome it, and I wish that I had the time to say more about it.
  9.6 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Johnston: I am sure that hon. Members on all sides of the House have listened with sympathy to the cases of hardship suffered by owners of property who have had their property requisitioned—some of them for many years—and of which they are not yet in occupation.
  It is clear from what has been said, and from what the Parliamentary Secretary told us, that the number of such persons, in relation to the whole number of persons who had their property requisitioned, is very small indeed, and that such persons who desire to go back to their property or who desire to sell it are obviously, in most cases, now accommodated by the local authority, or, as the Parliamentary Secretary anticipates, will be accommodated under Clauses 5 and 6 of the Bill.
  Therefore, it is clear that if one takes out what may be termed the hardship cases—the cases of the owner-occupiers who desire to go back or sell their property—we are left with the majority of the owners of requisitioned property. I

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  suggest that they probably number about 50,000 persons out of a total of, approximately, 55,000 owners of requisitioned property.
  Various computations have been made as to how many houses will remain requisitioned on 1st April, 1960. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), by a series of calculations, some of which, I thought, were based on the imponderables, came to the conclusion that, on 1st April, 1960, the best we could hope for was that 20,000 families would still be in requisitioned property. Let us take that as being right. The interests of those 20,000 families on 1st April, 1960, have to be balanced against the interests of the owners of those 20,000 houses, or a rather less number of houses.
  I am quite sure that, if the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary were to balance the rights of those two classes of persons as at that date, they would clearly come to the conclusion that the interests of the persons who were about to be evicted from the property were much greater than those of the landlords. One is a right of property; the other is a human right—the right to have a roof over one's head. I am sure, when I say that the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary would take that view, that it would also be the view of hon. Members on all sides of the House.
  I am sure that no hon. Members on the Government side would care, as individuals, to cause persons with no other place to live to be thrust out of their houses, in order that the owners of the houses, who, ex hypothesi, have no interest in the property other than a money interest, should profit from the freeing of occupancy.
  That being so, what is the justification for the Bill? If the figure which I am accepting from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West is right, an enormous problem will arise on 1st April, 1960. The hon. Member suggested that the problem would be solved by compulsory purchase under, Part V of the 1936 Act, and that any local authority in possession of requisitioned property on 1st April, 1960, and continuing to require that property, would purchase it under that Act.
  I would ask the Minister whether that is his policy. Is the hon. Member for
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  Wolverhampton, South-West, right in thinking that that is the policy of Her Majesty's Government? We know that the hon. Member is a great force in the hierarchy of the Conservative Party, and that he thinks much and gives vent to many pamphlets. I regret that he is not here at the moment to hear the high praise that I am paying him.
  I take it from what the hon. Member said that Government policy is that Part V of the 1936 Act is to be used from 1st April, 1960. If that is so, of course, it resolves the problem. If that is the way in which the problem is to be resolved at that date, would it not be easier to resolve it now, and to proceed under Part V powers from this date? The Minister could recoup local authorities, under the special powers which he would require to take for all his purposes under Part V.
  Perhaps that is not the policy of the Government, and the Minister does not intend to proceed under Part V at all. If compulsory purchase powers are not to be used on 1st April, 1960, what is the answer? Some hon. Members have suggested that so many houses will be built between now and April, 1960, that there will be no problem. There are two answers to that suggestion. The first is that the computation of 20,000 which I have just given was made on the assumption that the present rate of house-building is at least maintained, if not increased substantially, between now and that date. The second answer is that in many boroughs, as has been made abundantly clear by many London Members, there is simply no room for any more houses. The only way in which persons who are now in requisitioned property can be housed is in that requisitioned property.
  The Minister is unwise to put forward this terminal date of 1st April, 1960. In all probability he will have to come to the House and ask for an extension of it. The Minister will be able to say after the passage of the Bill, "The responsibility is not mine. I am no longer responsible for requisitioned property, beyond paying a certain percentage of the cost. That responsibility is on the local authority." At least one reason for the Bill is to do away with the odium which is on those in the Minister's party who hold requisitioned property, and to pass

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  that odium on to the local authorities. Indeed, I suggest that the Short Title of the Bill might be amended to read, "Requisitioned houses; the passing of the buck"; or "The transfer of owner-occupier odium." That is a terminal situation, but what is the situation going to be in the meantime?
  As I understood the Parliamentary Secretary, he was well satisfied with all the steps which the local authorities had taken so far to house those persons who are now housed in requisitioned property. If that is so, then what is the excuse for the gradual reduction of the grants made in respect of requisitioned property?
  It seems to me—and I think that it has been suggested by two hon. Members, one on each side of the House— that the purpose of this reduction is to squeeze the local authorities, to cause them to give up the houses sooner than they would otherwise do. If that is so, would it not be more honest for the Minister to say so, to say that he was dissatisfied with the local authorities, rather than to have the financial scheme provided in the Bill?
  I suggest that these financial provisions are altogether wrong. It has been said repeatedly from both sides of the House that the only reason for requisitioning was the blitz. That is exemplified by the fact that the major number of requisitioned houses are in London, which suffered so severely, whereas there are so few in Scotland, which suffered very little war damage at all.
  If that is so—and I think no one can deny it—then is it not clear that the liability is a national one and that it should be met from national resources, rather than from the local authority? Various hon. Members have shown how hard it will bear upon individual local authorities. The hardness with which it will bear depends very much upon the local authority. One local authority will suffer perhaps a 1d. increase in its rates, whereas others will suffer 5d. or 6d., and, as one hon. Member said, that sounds very little until one looks at the existing local rate.
  I suggest that this provision needs to be looked at very carefully indeed, and that it should be departed from altogether. I suggest that so long as requisitioning is necessary, and so long as it
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  arises from a national emergency, it should be met as a national emergency from the Exchequer. After all, when we say, as was said by one hon. Member, that this is a restoration of freedom, it is only a restoration of one small freedom. There is a great deal of requisitioning still going on.
  The right hon. Gentleman in his previous office as Minister of Supply had power of requisitioning. He had power to use it in his atomic energy work. The War Department still uses it, and several other Departments use it. All that requisitioning is paid for from the central Exchequer on the ground that the requisitioning is due to national need. I suggest that the housing of these people arises as much from national need as from anything else.
  Clause 10 (2), which has been mentioned on numerous occasions, provides that the Minister may vary the contribution according to the means of the local authority. It might be said that the equity is measured by the Ministerial foot. That is inadvisable for two reasons. From the local authorities' point of view it is inadvisable because they do not know what they should do, they do not know what they are to get, they do not know their liability.
  It is inadvisable from Parliament's point of view because Parliament is giving power to the Minister, apparently, to be generous or to be mean. Parliament should make up its mind how much it is to compel the Government to contribute. A formula should be adopted to cover Clause 10 (2). I understand that formulas have been discussed and that discussions have gone a good way, so it should be possible for the Minister to arrive at a suitable formula.
  May I turn for a moment or two to a closer examination of the Bill? Clause 1 (3) requires a good deal of examination because it does an extraordinary thing; it transfers the whole liability of agreements made between the Minister, or his predecessor, and the owner of the property. Let me give an example of the sort of difficulty that may arise. A mansion house of which I have personal knowledge was requisitioned, first, I think, by the Admiralty. It passed from the Admiralty to the War Office, from the War Office to certain Departments and ultimately

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  was derequisitioned. At one period during, I think, the Admiralty's occupation an agreement had been made between the Admiralty and the owners for reinstatement of the building. That agreement was not known to any of the subsequent Departments who held it and, under this provision, such an agreement would be referred to the local authority.
  I am aware that in Clause 18 the terminal compensation is wide enough for compensation to be reimbursed to the local authority even if it is not made under the Compensation (Defence) Act, but that sort of thing might happen. Local authorities would be well advised, if this Bill goes through—or before it goes through—to get a clear undertaking from the Minister that such points are covered.
  I think that Clause 3 is misguided. It provides that if a dwelling house falls vacant at any time, then, unless the Minister gives power, the requisition flies off. What will happen is that local authorities who are afraid that the Minister will not give power to continue the requisition will keep the people in the house rather than pass them on, as is usual, to a new house when one is available. As a result one will have the occupants remaining in the house until the very last day rather than getting a new house in their ordinary turn.
  Clause 4 (1) contains the extraordinary provision that the local authority may be required by the Minister to make representations to the owner for the acceptance of the licensee as statutory tenant. If the local authority does that, it will only be recouped in part for any loss which it incurs. Therefore, the situation is this, that the local authority has to "carry the can" while the Minister wields the whip.
  It is clear from what has been said that no one is very happy about this Bill. The hard cases could have been met by some simple little Bill incorporating Clauses 5 and 6. The other derequisitioning is merely being done so that the owners of property may reap the benefit of being owners of property. As "The Surveyor" said, what is happening is that owners of property will now be in a position to sell their property with vacant possession not later than 1st April, 1960. It must be remembered that many of those owners of property, and particularly the large landlords, were very glad indeed when, during
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  the blitz in 1940 and 1941, the local authorities took the property off their hands and provided them with a rent. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree.
  I suggest that in those circumstances, the wise thing for the Minister to do would be to say that he will withdraw this Bill and that he will bring in a simple little Bill incorporating Clauses 5 and 6. If he were to do so, we would not proceed with our Amendment. Failing such an assurance from the Minister, we must press our Amendment to a Division.
  9.27 p.m.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Duncan Sandys): The hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) comes from Scotland, where there is virtually no requisitioning problem. I believe there are 80 requisitioned houses—
  Mr. Elwyn Jones: There are 73.
  Mr. Sandys: Then, there are fewer than 80 houses which are requisitioned north of the Border, and that is why, no doubt, the hon. and learned Member was able to approach the problem in a more detached atmosphere than many other hon. Members.
  A lot of very strange things have been said during this debate—
  Mr. Shurmer: And true things.
  Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member is speaking for himself. I listened to his speech, but I would not necessarily endorse what he said.
  Mr. Shurmer: Oh.
  Mr. Sandys: I am not suggesting that there was anything untrue—
  Mr. Shurmer: What I said was true. The right hon. Gentleman should go to Birmingham and see.
  Mr. Sandys: Some of the things the hon. Gentleman said were somewhat mistaken. However, I will refer to the hon. Member's speech in a few moments.
  Two main criticisms have been levelled at the Bill during this debate. The first is that it will place an unfair burden on the local authorities and on the rates; the second is that it will lead to whole sale evictions in 1960. One hon. Member said that this Bill can be summed up in

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  three words—"Chuck 'em out." All I can say is that both these criticisms are based upon a complete misconception. Listening to the debate, I began to wonder how many hon. Members opposite had, in fact, read the Bill. The hon. Member for Hackney, South (Mr. H. Butler) likened me to Molotov. I could not quite make out what the connection was.
  Mr. Gordon Walker: Malenkov.
  Mr. Sandys: Malenkov? I do not know.
  The hon. Gentleman proceeded to say that he intended to stick to the facts. He very strongly criticised the decision to transfer responsibility to local authorities under the Bill, and he said—these were his words, as far as I could take them down: "It is for the Government to repair the ravages of war. It is for the Government to look after the people who were bombed out."
  We can all agree on that, and I believe that we are doing our best to do so by the Bill. But the hon. Member who wished to stick to the facts should be reminded of the facts. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary told the House earlier that at the end of the war about 70,000 properties were held under requisition for housing purposes. Since the war, to help meet the housing shortage, 50,000 other properties have been requisitioned.
  In fact, it was only last year, for the first time, that the number of requisitioned houses fell below the number held at the end of the war. In a number of areas, more houses have been requisitioned since the war than were requisitioned during the war. I am meeting the hon. Member's point about looking after those who were bombed out. Such figures as are available seem to suggest that a very high proportion of those who today are living in requisitioned houses are people who have moved into them since the end of the war.
  Mr. H. Butler Mr. H. Butler rose—
  Mr. Sandys: I have very little time and cannot give way.
  Mr. Butler: Surely those properties were taken over for people who were inadequately housed.
  Mr. Sandys: I am not saying that they were improperly taken over. I am saying that this is not primarily a war-time problem with which we are dealing.
  All this shows quite clearly, I maintain —and I do not think there is any dispute among local authorities about it —that requisitioned houses have become part and parcel of the ordinary pool of local authority housing accommodation. The only difference is that, instead of being owned by the local authorities, they are owned by private citizens and are compulsorily rented by the State; and instead of being partly paid for by local authorities they are entirely paid for by the Exchequer.
  Mr. Gibson: And the licensee.
  Mr. Sandys: Those are the main differences. We consider that both these features are objectionable and must not be allowed to continue indefinitely. The use of war-time powers for peace-time purposes is something which must be brought to an end as quickly as possible.
  The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) said several times that the period of five years was too short, and the hon. Member for Hackney, South said the Bill amounted to "chucking them out." Let us be quite clear about what we are trying to do. We want to bring these war-time arrangements to an end; we want to release these houses and return them to their owners as quickly as possible. I ask the House to recognise that this is the basis of the Bill.
  In so far as these houses cannot be released between now and 1960 without causing hardship to the occupants their retention must be regularised by agreement with the owners. That is what we are setting out to do.
  Mr. Sparks: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by that?
  Mr. Sandys: Perhaps the hon. Member will read the Bill, or, alternatively, will listen to me, and I will try to give the explanation.
  Mr. Sparks: The right hon. Gentleman does not know himself.
  Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson), who, like myself, represents a part of Wandsworth, said that the State should continue to pay 100 per cent, of the net cost. We do not

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  agree. We consider, having regard to the fact that these houses have become part of the general pool of housing accommodation—[An HON. MEMBER: "Not at all."]—that local authorities should bear some share of the cost of these requisitioned dwellings in the same way as they do for council houses. Only in that way will they have a direct interest in keeping down the expenditure.
  That, broadly, is what the Bill tries to do. In view of some of the things which have been said during the course of the debate, I should like to emphasise two things which the Bill does not do. The first is that it does not place an unfair burden on local authorities—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Is that denied?
  Mr. Shurmer: Yes.
  Mr. Sandys: I say again, it does not place an unfair burden on the local authorities.
  Mr. Parkin: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what it is?
  Mr. Sandys: The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland said that it would place an undue financial burden on local authorities. We were told in the course of the debate that it might involve an increase of 4½d. in the rates in Wands-worth—a matter of great interest to me— of 5d. in Hackney, and 10d. in Camberwell.
  The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland and the hon. Member for Clapham particularly asked for some information about the formula for the operation of the discretionary grant in Clause 10. I should like to give this information to the House. The local authority associations with whom I have worked out these proposals suggested the following formula, which I will read to the House. They suggested that provided the Minister is satisfied with the progress made in carrying out the Bill in a particular local authority area, a local authority whose net expenditure under the Bill
  "exceeds the equivalent of a 2d. rate should be eligible for a discretionary additional grant…"
  and—[An HON. MEMBER: "Is that a ceiling?"] I think an absolutely firm ceiling would be a great mistake because it would provide no incentive at all. This is what the local authorities associations proposed to me:
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  "Over and above the first 2d. rate the next 4d. should attract a grant of 75 per cent., the next 6d. a grant of 90 per cent. and. bevond that, 100 per cent."
  That is what they proposed to me as the formula for the operation of this discretionary grant. Whilst I am not in a position finally to commit myself on this point, I am prepared to say to the House tonight that I consider this formula quite reasonable and does not differ very substantially from what the Government have in mind. Therefore, local authorities can assume that something on these sort of lines will be the formula which we shall adopt. I hope that will go some way to meet the views which have been expressed.
  Mr. Dalton: Will a formula somewhat on those lines be included in the Bill when we reach Committee stage? If not, how will it be implemented?
  Mr. Sandys: It will be implemented by good faith. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] As the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland knows, when a Minister makes a statement such as I have just made, it amounts to almost the same thing as putting it into the Bill. I am certainly prepared to consider whether it would be desirable to put it in the Bill, but I do not think that a formula for a discretionary grant should necessarily go into the Bill. If it did, it would have to be worded rather more fully than I have given it this evening. But I certainly do not reject that possibility.
  Mr. Gibson Mr. Gibson rose—
  Mr. Sandys: I must get on. Several hon. Members have referred to my negotiations with the local authority associations. Some Members have suggested that these consultations were extremely perfunctory. It may interest the House to know that we had no fewer than five meetings, extending over three months, and altogether these meetings lasted for 16 hours. That should dispose of the suggestion that there was insufficient consultation. The right hon. Member for Poplar(Mr. Key) said that I had treated the local authorities roughly and that I had led them up the garden path. All I can say is that that is hardly borne out by the letters of appreciation which I have received from each of the local authority associations since the publication of the Bill.

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  This is to a large extent a London problem and a good deal has naturally been said about the views of the Metropolitan Boroughs Joint Standing Committee, whose attitude is of particular interest because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North (Sir A. Hudson) pointed out, it is governed by a large Labour majority. It would, therefore, be of interest if I read a passage from the conclusions of this circular, which has gone out to every local authority in London. It is public property, I think, by now.
  Mr. H. Butler: It is a confidential document.
  Mr. Sandys: No. I took the trouble to ask whether this was a document which I might quote to the House. This is what it says, in its concluding paragraphs:
  "The new Bill has been drafted after close consultation with the representatives of the local authorities, during which the Minister has paid regard to the observations and views which have been submitted by the Committee's representatives and by representatives of other local authority associations. We consider that the proposals provide a reasonable and workable scheme for bringing the emergency requisitioning procedure to an end with due respect to the housing obligations of the borough councils."
  The second thing which the Bill does not do is to put anybody's rent up or to make anybody homeless. That last one is the main accusation which has been made against us by the party opposite.
  Mr. Sparks: After 1960.
  Mr. Sandys: Very well; I add that. It will not make anybody homeless in 1960 or thereafter. The Amendment alleges that this is
  "a Bill which contemplates the eviction of occupants of requisitioned houses in 1960 without providing for their rehousing …"
  I propose to devote the rest of my time now to answering that, which I regard as the main charge that has been made against the Government in this debate and in the Amendment.
  I cannot conceive of a more reckless disregard for accuracy than that statement. I can only assume that when the Amendment was placed on the Order Paper the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland and his colleagues had not had time to read the Bill. Judging from some
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  of the speeches which have been made today, that omission had not been made good before the debate started.
  I am as keenly aware as any other hon. Member of the practical impossibility of releasing requisitioned houses without making provision for the accommodation of the occupants. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland reminded me that I was a London Member, if that was necessary; but not only am I a London Member, I represent the Borough of Wandsworth.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Part of it.
  Mr. Sandys: A very good part of it. The Council of the Borough of Wandsworth holds more requisitioned houses than any other local authority in the whole country. In framing the Bill, to which I have devoted many hours, I set myself the task of winding up requisitioning in such a way that not one single family would be rendered homeless. I sincerely believe that anyone who understands this problem and has read the Bill will be satisfied on that score.
  However, in view of the fact that the Opposition have thought fit to place the Amendment on the Order Paper, I must ask the House to go through the Bill with me in some detail, to see just how the occupants of requisitioned houses will be affected. Between now and 1960 a proportion of these occupants, in the ordinary course of events, will move out of requisitioned dwellings into council houses or other homes which they have found for themselves. That is the normal process which is going on all the time. I think that the party opposite will agree that the allegation in their Amendment clearly does not apply to those people and I need not discuss them.
  Mr. Shurmer: What about jumping the queue?
  Mr. Sandys: I will go right through the provisions if hon. Members will give me time and not interrupt.
  Then there is the occupant whose landlord applies to the courts under Clause 5 for release of his house for his own occupation. I am glad to say that the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland and other hon. Members have expressed sympathy with the position of these people. The right hon. Member said to me, "Why was it necessary to have compulsion?" I

  311
  have with me, but have not the time to read them, a whole list of hardship cases of this kind, some of which have been submitted to me by hon. Members opposite. They are cases where the local authority has refused to release the house.
  One hon. Member opposite wrote:
  "If the Ministry has any powers of compulsion so as to secure the derequisitioning of this house, I shall be grateful for their being used as rigorously as possible."
  These applications will only be granted by the court if it is proved that the hardship caused to the owner by being excluded from his house is greater than the hardship caused to the occupants by having to move out. Clearly, therefore, there is no case of injustice. Moreover, the local authority will provide the occupants with alternative accommodation.
  Mrs. Jeger: Where?
  Mr. Sandys: Let me explain. If the number of owners who want their houses back to live in were numerous the rehousing of the occupants might present great difficulties. But, as we know quite well from the inquiries which we have made and the number of applications which we have received, they are not at all numerous. This fact has been confirmed during today's debate by the hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut-Colonel Lipton) by the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. A. Evans) and by the hon. Member for Hackney, South (Mr. H. Butler). Even at a time when these houses were requisitioned only a very small proportion belonged to owner-occupiers, and in the ten or fifteen years which have elapsed since then the majority of these people have gone somewhere else to live and do not now any longer want to move. Some of them, of course, have died.
  Apart from any council houses which may be available, other requisitioned dwellings are constantly falling vacant. Requisitioned dwellings which become vacant will normally be released, but local authorities who need some of them to rehouse occupants who have been moved as a result of a decision of a court will be authorised to retain them under Clause 3 of the Bill, to which reference has been made.
  There should, therefore, be little or no difficulty at all in providing alterna-
  312
  tive suitable accommodation for the very small number of families who are going to be involved, and this will usually be done without any resort whatever to the use of council houses. It is quite absurd for the hon. Member for Sparkbrook and others to say that the Bill will block the prospects of people on the housing list and slow down slum clearance.
  Incidentally, the hon. Member referred to the criticism in the "Birmingham Mail." I have looked up the leading article, but I have not time now to read it to the House. However, I can say that it ends up in a way most flattering to the Bill.
  Mr. Shurmer: Has the Minister read what was said by the housing manager?
  Mr. Sandys: I was concerned with what the "Birmingham Mail" said.
  There were other types of hardship cases where the owner suffers financial hardship and urgently needs to sell his house and he cannot get a good and reasonable price unless he gets vacant possession. In such cases the Minister is empowered, under Clause 6, to require the local authority to release the house. However, if it is not possible to provide other suitable accommodation for the occupant, then the local authority may purchase the house instead of releasing it.
  Mr. Sparks: "May" if the owner agrees.
  Mr. Sandys: He may be required by the Minister to purchase the house instead of releasing it. It was precisely to protect the occupants in such cases that we provided this alternative in Clause 6 The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland will, I think, agree that, here again, there is no justification for the allegation which he has made.
  We are left with the case of occupants of requisitioned houses who, by 1960, have not found alternative accommodation elsewhere and whose landlords have not been willing to accept them as statutory tenants. I cannot say how many cases there will be. In many parts of the country there may be no such cases at all. But in framing this Bill we have assumed that in some cases the number will be quite considerable. In such areas the local authorities will be advised to try and rent the houses they need to retain after 1960. Our information is that many

  313
  owners will be perfectly willing to let their houses to local authorities for a further period of 10 or 15 years and will regard this as a very sound investment.
  The occupants of houses which have been rented in this way will, naturally, continue as tenants of the local authority, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman does he not agree that their security of tenure would remain precisely the same as it is today. There, again, is another category of occupants who will not be evicted in 1960, as the Amendment suggests.
  Next, I take the case of the occupant whose landlord agrees to convert the requisition into a statutory rent-controlled tenancy. How will he be placed in 1960? So far as his rent is concerned, his position will be exactly the same as it is now. He will pay just as much as the local authority considers reasonable. If that is less than the standard rent then the local authority will make up the difference. As for his security of tenure, it will, of course, be greatly increased: he will have the protection of all the safeguards provided by the Rent Acts. Again, I ask the right hon. Gentleman, does he not agree that occupants in that category will not be evicted in 1960?
  In most places it should be possible to accommodate all the occupants of requisitioned houses by one or other of the methods to which I have referred. We realise, however, that there will be areas, particularly in London, where there will still remain a number of occupants who cannot be accommodated in council houses, in rented houses or by means of statutory tenancies. In those areas local authorities will have to buy—and I wish to make this point clear—whatever houses are necessary to provide accommodation for the residents.
  Under the Housing Act, 1936, local authorities possess powers of compulsory purchase, and in the event of their being unable to purchase sufficient houses by agreement, they will have to use those powers. According to our policy, however, they will use them in the last resort, and in the last resort only. From all the inquiries we have made we know that there will be an ample number of owners who will be prepared freely to offer their houses for sale at a proper price, and we are quite confident that the use of those compulsory powers will not be necessary. I say again to the right hon. Gentleman that those people will not be evicted in 1960.
  I believe I have covered every conceivable eventuality, and I submit that the allegations contained in the Amendment are unfounded and unjustified. I will not press the point any further at this late stage, though I think that the right hon. Gentleman might well withdraw his charge, because neither he nor his hon. Friends have sustained this allegation in their speeches throughout this debate. Although the criticism which has been put forward has been all too easy to dispose of, I regret it, because it has tended to conceal the fact that there is no dispute between us about the objective. The objective of this Bill is to return these houses to their owners as quickly as possible consistent with the avoidance of hardship to the present occupiers. The Bill will, I am confident, achieve that objective.
  Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question: —
  The House divided: Ayes 298, Noes 253.

  Division No. 35.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Bullard, D. G.

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Bennett, Sir William (Woodside)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (SaffronWalden)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Campbell, Sir David

  Armstrong. C. W.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Carr, Robert

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Black, C. W.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Assheton, Rt. Hn. R. (Blackburn.W.)

  Boothby, Sir R. J. G.

  Channon, H.

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Clarke, Col. Sir Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Baldwin A. E.

  Braine, B. R.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth.W.)

  Banks, Col. C.

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Cole, Norman

  Barber, Anthony

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Colegate, Sir Arthur

  Barlow, Sir John

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Beach, MaJ. Hicks

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Profumo, J. D.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Redmayne, M.

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Kaberry, D.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  De la Bère, Sir Rupert

  Kerr, H. W.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Lambton, Viscount

  Robertson, Sir David

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Donner Sir P. W.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Ropner Col. Sir Leonard

  Drayson, G. B.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Russell, R. S.

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Ryder, Cap. R. E. D.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Lindsay, Martin

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. C. (King's Norton)

  Scott, Sir Donald

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Sharpies, Maj. R. C.

  Fell, A.

  Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbr'gh, W.)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Longden, Gilbert

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Fletcher, Sir Walter (Bury)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Speir, R. M.

  Fort, R.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Foster, John

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (K'ns'gt'n, S.)

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Gammans, L. D.

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Gamer-Evans, E. H.

  Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Glover, D.

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Godber, J. B.

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfleid, W.)

  Storey, S.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  MacLeod, John (Row A Cromarty)

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Studholme, H. G.

  Gower, H. R.

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury)

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Sutdiffe, Sir Harold

  Grimond, J.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Marples, A. E.

  Teeling, W.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Heref'd)

  Hare, Hon. J. H.

  Maude, Angus

  Thomas, Leslle (Canterbury).

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Maudllng, R.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Maydon, Lt. Comdr. S.L.C.

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon,W.)

  Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W.R.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. P. (M'nm'th)

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Hay, John

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Turton, R. H.

  Heath, Edward

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Neave, Airey

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Vosper, D. F.

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

  Wade, D. W.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'le'bne)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Nutting, Rt. Hon. Anthony

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Hollis, M. C.

  Odey, G. W.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Hope, Lard John

  O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. F.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Webbe, Sir H. (L'nd'n & Westm'r)

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Osborne, C.

  Wellwood, W.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Page, R. G.

  Williams, Rt. Hn. Charles (Torquay)

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, H.)

  Perkins, Sir Robert

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Wills, G.

  Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Hurt, A. R.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Mr. Buchan-Hepbun and

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Sir Cedric Drew

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  316

  317

  NOES

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil(Colne Valley)

  Orbach, M.

  Adams, Richard

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Oswald, T.

  Albu, A. H.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Owen, W. J.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Hannan, W.

  Padley, W. E.

  Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Hardy, E. A.

  Paget, R. T.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. w. (Dearne Valley)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Hastings, S.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Bartley, P.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Pannell, Charles

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Bence, C. R.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn.A.(Rwly Regis)

  Parker, J.

  Benn Hon. Wedgwood

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Beswlok, F.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Paton, J.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Hobson, C. R.

  Peart, T, F.

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Holman, P.

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Blackburn, F.

  Holmes, Horace

  Popplewell, E.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Porter, G.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Price, J.T. (Westhoughton)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Bowden, H. W.

  Hughes Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Rankin, John

  Brook, Dry den (Halifax)

  Hynd. J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Reeves, J.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Reid Thomas (Swindon)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Reid William (Camlachie)

  Burke, W. A.

  Janner, B.

  Rhodes, H.

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Carmichael J.

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Ross, William

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Johnson James (Rugby)

  Royle, C.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Jones Rt. Hon A Creech

  Short, E. W.

  Clunie, J.

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Coldrick, W.

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (W.Ham, S.)

  Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

  Collick, P. H.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Collins V. J.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Keenan, W.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Cove, W. G.

  Kenyon, C.

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Sorensen, R. W,

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Daines P.

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Steele, T.

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Lewis, Arthur

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Stross, Dr. Barnett

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  McGhee, H. G.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E,

  Deer, G.

  McGovern, J.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Mclnnes, J.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Taylor, John (West Lothlan)

  Dugdale, Rt.Hn.John(W.Brmwch)

  McLeavy, F.

  Thomas George (Cardiff)

  Ede, R. Hon. J. C.

  McNell, R. Hon. H.

  Thomas Iorwerth (Rhondda. W.)

  Edelman, M.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Thornton, E

  Edwards, W.J. (Stepney)

  Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfd, E.)

  Tomney, F

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Manuel, A. C.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Usborne H C.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Mason, Roy

  Viant, S. P.

  Flenburgh, W.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Wallace. H. W.

  Finch, H. J.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Follick, M.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

  Foot, M. M.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Weitzman, D.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Monslow, W.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Freeman, John (Watford)

  Moody, A. S.

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  West, D. G.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Morley, R.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham,S.)

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Glanville, James

  Mort, D. L.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Gooch, E. C.

  Moyle, A.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Wigg, George

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Murray, J. D.

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Nally, W.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Willey, F. T.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  O'Brien, T.

  Williams, Rt. Hon, T. (Don Valley)

  Hale, Leslie

  Oliver, G. H.

  Williams W. R. (Droylsden)

  318

  319

  Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Winter-bottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Willis, E. G.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Wyatt, W. L.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

  Yates, V. F.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Arthur Alien

  Question put and agreed to.

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

  REQUISITIONED HOUSES AND HOUSING (AMENDMENT) [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).— [Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to repeal the power to requisition land for housing purposes under Defence Regulations and transfer to local authorities in England and Wales the right to possession of requisitioned houses for a limited period, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise—
  A. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums payable out of such moneys under any other enactment which may be attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session—

  (1) transferring to local authorities the right to possession of land in England and Wales used or held for use for housing purposes under emergency powers, and enabling those authorities to retain possession of such land until the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixty;

  (2) regulating the use, retention and release of such land, and making provision for matters connected therewith, including pro vision for payments to be made by the said authorities to owners of such land, for the application thereto of enactments relating to requisitioned land, and for the purchase of the land by the local authority in certain cases;

  (3) requiring contributions to be made to the housing revenue account in respect of certain houses leased or purchased by the said authorities.

  B. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of sums required by the Minister of Housing and Local Government for making the following payments in respect of expenditure of the said local authorities, that is to say: —

  (1) sums equal to any compensation paid by those authorities in respect of such land as aforesaid under paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section two of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, or under any agreement for the payment of compensation in lieu of compensation under that paragraph (including any such compensation which would be so paid if the local authority
  320
  were not at the material time the owners of the land);

  (2) contributions in respect of any deficit incurred by those authorities (as assessed by the said Minister) in connection with such land while in their possession under the said Act of the present Session, and in respect of payments made by those authorities to owners of such land under provisions of the said Act enabling such owners to accept as statutory tenant of a dwelling the person occupying it as licensee of the local authority, at the following rate, that is to say—

  (a)in respect of deficit incurred and payments falling to be made in the period beginning with the commencement of the said Act of the present Session and ending with the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifty-six, one hundred per cent.;

  (b)in respect of deficit incurred and payments falling to be made in the years ending with the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifty-seven to nineteen hundred and sixty inclusive, seventy-five per cent.;

  (3) special grants to such authorities, pay able at the discretion of the said Minister, with the consent of the Treasury, and of such amounts as he may, with the like consent, determine, in respect of the year ending with the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifty-seven or any subsequent financial year;

  (4) contributions in respect of any deficit (as estimated by the said Minister in accordance with the provisions of the said Act of the present Session) likely to be incurred in respect of houses leased or purchased by the said authorities and approved by the Minister in accordance with the said Act, of an amount equal to seventy-five per cent; of that deficit and payable for the following period, that is to say:—

  (a)in the case of a house taken on lease, the term of the lease or ten years, whichever is the shorter; and

  (b)in the case of a house purchased, a period of twenty years.

  C. The repayment into the Exchequer, out of moneys provided by Parliament—

  (1) of the aggregate amount remaining outstanding on the first day of April, nine teen hundred and fifty-five, of all sums issued before that date out of the Consolidated Fund under subsection (1) of section eight of the Housing (Temporary Accommodation) Act, 1944, together with interest on the said aggregate amount, by seven equal annual instalments;

  (2) of any sums issued as aforesaid after the said date, by payments made before the expiration of the financial year in which those sums are issued,
  and the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of sums paid into the Exchequer as mentioned in

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  this paragraph and the application of sums so issued in redemption or payment of debt, or, in so far as they represent interest, towards meeting such part of the annual charges for the National Debt as represents interest.

  D. The payment into the Exchequer of any sums received by the said Minister in pursuance of any provisions of the said Act of the present Session.—[Mr. Sandys.]

  10.12 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: I was hoping that we might have a word of explanation from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury about this Money Resolution, which is obviously long and complicated. There are many questions on which the Committee would wish to be satisfied before accepting the Motion in its present form.
  There does not appear to be any Treasury representative on the Government Front Bench, with the exception of the Patronage Secretary. Perhaps he will deal with this Motion. There are many financial points of the greatest possible importance to local authorities on which we require satisfactory assurances. In the absence of the Financial Secretary I imagine that the Minister of Housing and Local Government, or the Prime Minister, will deal with the matter. Therefore, I will address my remarks to them.
  During the last few minutes of the Minister's speech in the debate on the Second Reading we heard two very important announcements. The right hon. Gentleman attempted to clear up two matters which had been the subject of great speculation on both sides of the House about the powers of local authorities to acquire property, in view of what will almost certainly happen in many areas in 1960. It will then become necessary for some local authorities to purchase houses so as to complete the technique of derequisitioning. I would ask the Minister whether this Resolution is, in its present form, sufficiently wide to enable Amendments to be put down in the Committee on the Bill to ensure that the cost which will fall upon local authorities who have to purchase houses will be fully subsidised by the Government.
  I am sure that the Minister fully appreciates this point. He conceded, in his winding-up speech, that there would be many cases in which the Bill could be implemented only by local authorities exercising their powers of compulsory purchase under the 1936 Act.
  10.15 p.m.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Sandys)The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Sandys) indicated dissent.
  Mr. Fletcher: The Minister shakes his head, but I think we may take it that there will be, as the right hon. Gentleman himself has said, a number of cases, particularly in densely populated areas like Islington, where the provisions of the Bill will mean that if the local authorities are to derequisition all the requisitioned houses and are to provide alternative accommodation for the tenants of them, they will have to fall back on the powers of purchase. That will inevitably happen. If, in 1960, local authorities are driven to purchase houses, they will presumably have to do so on the assumption that vacant possession will be given. Therefore, the owner will get the full market price.
  If that happens, a great burden will fall upon the local authorities, particularly those of boroughs like Islington, Deptford and West Ham, unless provision is made in the Bill for them to be fully indemnified by the Treasury for the cost which will fall upon them as a direct consequence of the Bill.
  It seems to me—and I have done my best to understand it—that in its present form the Money Resolution is not wide enough to cover the Amendments which those of us on these benches who represent local authorities will wish to put down in Committee in an effort to ensure that local authorities are not penalised by the Bill. I think it very unfortunate that we have not had a word of explanation from the Minister or from the Parliamentary Secretary, and that the Committee has not been treated with the courtesy of the presence of a Treasury representative.
  I am reminded that the Patronage Secretary is present, but we have not the presence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Financial Secretary or the Economic Secretary. I have no doubt that, before we conclude the Committee stage, we shall have the presence of one or other of those right hon. and hon. Gentlemen. In the meantime, I have no doubt that the Patronage Secretary will do his best to understand what this is all about, and will deal with the matter.
  My second question, which is an important one, is this: can the Minister

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  elaborate the explanation which he gave in his speech on Second Reading by telling me whether or not I am right in assuming that, in cases where local authorities will be driven to purchase houses in order to complete the operation of derequisitioning, they will have to purchase those houses on the footing that there is a protected tenant under the Rent Acts in them, or whether they will have to purchase them on the footing that, in 1960, that protected tenant will become a trespasser, and, after a period of time. liable to eviction?
  The Minister will realise that the cost to local authorities will vary considerably, and that there will be a large number of boroughs on whom the Bill will throw a very heavy and unfair burden unless something is done about it at this stage. I hope that, in view of the extremely vague and narrow form in which the Money Resolution is drafted, we shall have an opportunity, if we so desire in Committee, to put down the necessary Amendments.
  It may well be that the Minister does not know the answer to this problem, in which event I think that the appropriate course would be for the Committee stage of this Resolution to be adjourned, because I think that the matter which I am now raising is of such importance that the Committee would not wish to part with it unless we get a categorical answer from the Treasury about it. The Resolution is thoroughly unsatisfactory, and in its present form I should not be prepared to support it. I hope that we shall have an answer to this, and to other points which, I have no doubt, will be raised by my hon. Friends before we part with the Bill.
  Mr. J. A. Sparks: I, too, would like to protest at the Financial Secretary not being present to give the Committee the reasons for this Money Resolution. The Bill is very complicated and the least the Government could have done would have been to have arranged for either the Financial Secretary or the Minister himself to give the Committee a brief out line of its main points.
  Under Clause 4, where an arrangement is come to between the local authority and the owner that the owner will take over the licensee as a statutory
  324
  tenant, the local authority is under an obligation to pay compensation to that owner. There are, roughly, three categories of compensation. First, there is compensation for the loss of vacant possession value. Secondly, provision is made for compensation to be paid if the licensee pays a rent lower than the compensation rent paid to the owner under requisitioning arrangements. Thirdly, there is terminal compensation. It is upon vacant possession value and terminal compensation that I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman one or two questions.
  Since requisitioning, quite a large number of these houses have had very considerable sums of public money spent upon them for conversion and adaptation for the families who have gone to live in them. Many of these houses have been converted almost into self-contained flats. As a result, their vacant possession value is today very much higher than would otherwise have been the case. I should like an assurance from the Minister that he will not give to that class of owners a vacant possession value which has been created by this public expenditure.
  The basis of terminal compensation is that at the end of requisitioning, when the house is handed back to the owner, any compensation due to him should be offset by the amount of public money spent on improving the property. This Money Resolution does not say that that will, in fact, take place. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance that the large sums that have been spent in improving this property and increasing its vacant possession value will be offset against the compensation paid to the owner at the end of requisitioning. We should have that cleared up, because very large sums of public money are involved. In his speech just now the Minister made very little reference to the financial provisions, and that, among other matters, needs to be made clear.
  My second point arises from Clause 11, which provides for "Contributions to cost of lease or purchase." I am not quite clear—and the Minister left the House in a state of confusion on this point— whether the local authorities will be required before 31st March, 1960, to acquire by agreement or compulsorily all the remaining requisitioned dwellings that will

  325
  not have been otherwise disposed of by other Clauses in the Bill.
  Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that these powers of acquisition by agreement or by compulsory purchase are limited to the next five years, terminating on 31st March, 1960;or, when the houses become derequisitioned and when the owner receives back possession and the occupants then become trespassers and are liable to be put out, does the Money Resolution allow local authorities after that date to acquire such houses by compulsory purchase or by agreement?
  If they do acquire such houses by agreement or by compulsory purchase after 31st March, 1960, will they then receive the benefit of Treasury contribution, namely, 75 per cent, of the deficit involved in the transaction, or will they, as they now have to do if they desire to buy a vacant house or even a house that is occupied, have to buy it at its market value with no contribution from the Treasury whatsoever?
  That is a very important point, particularly for the local authorities. I assume that the Money Resolution is designed to tie up these points which we have put forward tonight. It is important that the right hon. Gentleman should shed some light on this question of compensation to be paid to owners of property. In the light of the large sums of public money that have already been spent to improve and increase the vacant possession value of property, are they allowed to get away with the advantage that would be created by the expenditure of public money? If not, how does the right hon. Gentleman propose to offset that expenditure of public money against the compensation that is being paid?
  Finally, there is the point about the date 31st March, 1960. Are local authorities to be allowed to acquire compulsorily any houses then being derequisitioned but which are occupied by the licensees? May they acquire them by agreement or by compulsory power, and may they enjoy the Treasury contribution of 75 percent, which they would have enjoyed had they purchased the house prior to the date that I have mentioned? The Committee is entitled to an explanation on those points, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give it to us before we agree to the Money Resolution.
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Elwyn Jones: I feel that the Committee is entitled to better treatment from the Government Front Bench on this very important Money Resolution. The debate on the Bill took a remarkable course, with the Minister keeping under his hat until the last minute some of the more important financial provisions of the Bill, namely, the formula for the grant. It was a most extraordinary procedure. It was as if the Minister had retained something of news value for himself, depriving the House of the benefit of that information, to which the House was entitled at an early stage.
  On this important Resolution, there is no Chancellor of the Exchequer to assist the Committee, no Financial Secretary to the Treasury, no Economic Secretary to the Treasury, not even a Lords Commissioner sitting on the Government Front Bench. In view of the enormous amount of public money which may be involved in the passage of the Resolution, we are entitled to better treatment.
  At the end of the Second Reading debate the Minister referred to the fact that in certain circumstances certain local authorities might be obliged to engage in very substantial purchases of houses to accommodate those who are licensees in requisitioned premises. I want to know whether provision is made for that contingency in the Money Resolution. Is the answer that provision is made under the 1936 Act? I do not know and I should like information on the subject, because I assure the right hon. Gentleman that that part of his proposals will give rise to considerable debate in Committee.
  We are in the dark about what will be involved in compensation to the owners of houses which are so to be acquired by local authorities and we are entitled to know where, in the Resolution, reference is made to the Government's proposal. How many millions of pounds of national money or local authority money may be involved in carrying out this proposal? These are important matters, and I protest against the Treasury's conduct in leaving the Minister to his own devices and leaving the Committee to guess on highly technical matters of economics.
  Mr. Stan Awbery: The theme running through most of today's speeches has been the impoverish-

  327
  ment of local authorities. Hardly a month passes without the House of Commons placing heavy burdens, either in administration or in finance, upon local authorities.
  I want the Minister to give an assurance that the allocation to be laid down will be reconsidered when the Bill is in Committee. The requisitioning of houses was introduced because of national circumstances and the responsibility and the cost should therefore be a national charge. I want an assurance from the Minister that the charge will be entirely a national charge and not a charge falling on the already impoverished local authorities. If he will give an assurance that the matter will be reconsidered in Committee, some of us will be satisfied.
  Mr. Albert Evans: Even at this late hour, the Committee should not allow this important Money Resolution to pass on the nod. I saw the Patronage Secretary moving about in his seat when my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) rose to say a word on the Resolution, but we should not allow a Resolution involving such large sums of money to pass without some consideration. We know that a lot of money is involved. We know that the cost to the Treasury over the years since the war has been heavy. Both parties have regretted that high cost.
  I also agree that something should be done to reduce as much as possible the amount of expenditure on requisitioned houses, with due fairness to the interested parties. To that extent, I welcome the Resolution, though I must make some reservations about it. It places rather too heavy a financial burden upon some local authorities. Some authorities are not very much affected. Others who have large numbers of requisitioned premises are very much involved.
  I know that the Minister is not only taking powers to pay a75 per cent, contribution towards the net deficit of the local authorities, but also special powers to give special grants. The Resolution refers to
  "special grants to such authorities payable at the discretion of the said Minister, with the consent of the Treasury, and of such amounts as he may, with the like consent, determine,…"
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  The Minister, at whose discretion these grants are to be made, said something today about the formula which had been discussed and upon which he would base the special grants.
  The Minister should have enlightened us earlier on this rather important aspect of the Money Resolution. At the close of the Second Reading debate, the right hon. Gentleman gave us some figures which he and the local authority representatives had discussed. Presumably, the formula had not been finalised. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say on Second Reading that he would consider whether he could insert the formula in the Money Resolution.
  Mr. Sandys: No.
  Mr. Evans: The right hon. Gentleman certainly seemed to suggest that he would consider whether he could make a specific statement about the formula at some stage in our discussion of the Bill. I hope that at some stage we shall have the final formula from the Minister. It may be that when my hon. and right hon. Friends have decided that the Resolution has been sufficiently discussed, the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us the formula in detail. It is very important to the "hard core" authorities. Undoubtedly they will be heavily burdened by the operation of the Bill.
  The Bill provides that the owners of requisitioned property are to receive compensation payments in lieu of their right to vacate possession. I hope that the Minister will give us the basis upon which compensation payment is to be made. This is very important, because public money is involved. Many owners will, I suspect, receive a rather nice capital gain out of their houses, free of tax, when these compensation payments are made. I think that the Committee is entitled to ask, before this Resolution is allowed to go through, on what basis the compensation payments in lieu of the right to vacate possession will be made.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not know whether the Minister intends to reply, but I can assure him that on this side of the Committee we have no intention, if we can help it, of allowing him to sit there dumb, making no comment whatever on what, after all, is a very long and complicated Money Resolution. It runs to one and a half pages, and, having

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  had some small experience of Money Resolutions when I sat on that side, I find it hard to charge my memory with any instance when a Money Resolution so long and so complicated was expected to go through, as it were, on the nod.
  The Government which preceded this one were only too eager to give the Committee all the explanation the Committee needed; in fact, they would go out of their way, frequently at a very late hour, to explain carefully and fully just what was involved in any particular Resolution of this sort which was moved from that Bench. I take it that hon. Gentlemen on that side find nothing unusual, nothing wrong, in a Resolution of this kind going through apparently without comment. I cannot understand their attitude. I can only assume that they can trust their Front Bench, and I can tell them that is more than we do.
  Within the last day or two we have had a woeful exhibition of the fact that the Government are not even to be trusted to deal with cheese—much less money of the volume which is indicated by this Resolution.
  Mr. Ede: They have even been beaten in another place.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: The Minister left until the very end of the Second Reading debate any indication of what the financial commitments in the Bill were, and now apparently we are to wait until the end of this debate on the Money Resolution before we get any inkling whatever of what are the amounts involved. We have not the faintest notion what the total amounts indicated in this Resolution may be, and I think we are entitled to know, within limits, just how much is involved.
  As my hon. Friends have indicated, the local authorities are heavily involved in this Bill, and I think that for their sake, and certainly for those who will have to find a great deal of money, it is our duty, as an Opposition, to insist on the Minister giving us some explanation of just what these various provisions mean. I therefore rise only for the purpose of assuring the right hon. Gentleman that we are not just being factious in our opposition. We really do feel it is our duty to get him to indicate this; we do not mind how long he stands at the Box. We are willing to stay all night if necessary.
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  We think that not only this Committee but the country at large is entitled to know what this long and complicated Resolution means, and how much it will involve the taxpayer, the ratepayer and the local authorities, who will come under the provisions of the Bill, the Second Reading of which we have just completed. I can see that the Minister is anxious to get up, and now that the Parliamentary Secretary has, I think, finished his visits to the officials under the gallery I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman is now fully armed with the answers to the questions put by my hon. Friends.
  Without more ado I will sit down, in the full hope that we shall now get a complete explanation, such as we should have, of this very long and involved Resolution.
  10.45 p.m.
  Mr. Sandys: I shall try not to keep the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) up all night, although he seems anxious to stay up. First of all, let me say there is nothing unusual about the framing of this Money Resolution. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had some experience of framing such Resolutions, and that was no doubt when he was Financial Secretary to the Treasury. If he casts his mind back he will remember that Money Resolutions on housing Measures of all kinds, which involve the expenditure of substantial sums of Government money, are always framed in this lengthy and detailed fashion. We followed the normal precedent adopted by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues when they were responsible for the finances of the country.
  Various points have been raised, and I think I can briefly and clearly reply to them. The hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) asked what would happen in a case where a house had been improved and then, later, was derequisitioned in the ordinary way. Judging by most of the houses that I have seen, I am afraid that the majority have not been improved at all, and anything that has happened has been in the other direction.
  Mr. Sparks: That is not an answer.
  Mr. Sandys: I was prefacing my answer with that remark.

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  I think they would be rare cases, but in a case where that occurs I am able to assure the hon. Gentleman that any increased value which accrues as a result of improvements made and works done while the property was held under requisition will be taken into account and offset in calculating the terminal compensation for dilapidations which will be due to be paid at the end of the requisitioning. There is nothing new in that. It is not a provision of the Bill, nor is it our intention to depart from what is actual practice.
  Mr. Sparks: On that point, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question? He says that this amount will be offset against the compensation due for dilapidations, but my point is that the vacant possession value of such premises would be greatly enhanced by such expenditure of public funds and my query is whether that expenditure would be offset against that enhanced vacant possession value, as well as dilapidations, which may be lower than the increased value accruing to the house?
  Mr. Sandys: I am not conversant with that particular point, but I do not think it will ever arise, because in a case where a house is being bought there will still be compensation to be paid. These houses, for the most part, had been requisitioned for 10 or 15 years already, and it may be another five years when this happens. So, for the best part of a generation, they will have been held by the Government, and I think it will be very rare to find that the improvements that have been done are of greater value than the dilapidations which have taken place. But I will certainly watch that point, though I do not think it is one of great significance in the financial considerations.
  I would point out to the hon. Member that this is already provided. We are not beginning anything new in the matter of compensation. There is nothing new about purchasing houses when they are requisitioned. That is all provided for in the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, and in Clause 2 of the Bill these provisions are specifically retained in respect of houses which are no longer held by the Government and which are transferred under the Bill to the local authority. I am sorry if I am not familiar with all the details of that very compli-
  332
  cated Act, but I can say that it will continue to apply under the provisions of this Bill in exactly the same way as it has applied during all those years.
  I was asked about the price in the event of these houses being purchased. As I explained earlier, I do not expect that it will be necessary to use compulsory powers because I think there will be sufficient houses whose owners are willing either to lease or to sell them. But in the event of a house being bought compulsorily, the price to be paid is defined and governed by the Town and Country Planning Act, 1954. In most cases this provides for market value with vacant possession.
  There are circumstances in which the price will be less than the market value with vacant possession—that is to say, in cases where the property has some special development value other than for its existing use. If, however, the owner asks for more than the price which it would be permissible to pay if the house were compulsorily purchased—I am talking now about a purchase which is made voluntarily—in practice the purchase will not take place.
  Mr. Sparks: The right hon. Gentleman can expect that he will ask for more.
  Mr. Sandys:No, I do not expect that the owner will ask for more than he would get if he had the house released and sold it on the open market. There is no reason why he should.
  Mr. Sparks: There is such a thing as scarcity value.
  Mr. Sandys:But the scarcity value creates the market value to some extent. The value is determined in the first in stance by the district valuer. Again we are not laying down any new procedure; this is the normal procedure. If these houses are compulsorily purchased they will be purchased for precisely the same price as they would be if this Bill did not exist. There is nothing new about that, and there is no problem with which we have to concern ourselves tonight in that respect.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall:But would not the owner also have, in addition, the certain knowledge that the house would not only be his with vacant possession, but in a proper state of repair, whereas very often houses which come into the market in that way, although there is vacant possession, are not in a perfect state of repair?
  Mr. Sandys: It does not much matter whether he sells it with an allowance for the assumption that it is in a proper state of repair or whether he gets terminal compensation for dilapidations from the Government. In point of fact, as the law stands, he will sell the house for what it is worth as it stands in its present state of repair. In addition, he is entitled, under the 1939 Act, to terminal compensation for dilapidations, and that will make up the difference.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: Would the Minister be good enough to answer my question as to whether in these cases of acquisition the cost falls upon the local authority, or will that authority be fully reimbursed by the Government?
  Mr. Sandys: That is governed by the Bill. It is over 20 years. Clause 11, which is entitled "Contributions to cost of lease or purchase," gives all the information that the hon. Gentleman requires.
  I was asked about compensation for vacant possession under Clause 4. That is the Clause under which the owner is invited to grant a tenancy to the occupant. The amount that is payable there will, as the Bill provides, be reckoned as part of the net annual deficit which the local authority can reckon for grant; that is to say, the local authority will get the 75 per cent, and, if necessary, the additional discretionary grant in the case of a local authority which has a severe problem.
  In general, all these points and the financial provisions of the Bill have been discussed and agreed with the local authority associations, so that there need be no anxiety that an undue burden will be placed on local authorities or on their rates. Then, we have this additional safeguard to which I referred earlier— this discretionary grant, which enables us to relieve the burden on local authorities where that burden might be excessive.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: Might I put one further point to the Minister? He has just referred me to Clause 11 which, as he says, provides the contribution by the Exchequer towards the cost of purchase. That contribution by the Exchequer for purchase by a local authority is limited to 75 per cent, of the net annual deficit. What I wish to ask is this: when we reach the Committee stage, several of my hon. Friends and myself will be anxious
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  to put down Amendments to Clause 11 to try to increase the Exchequer contribution to a local authority, and I am not at all certain whether this Money Resolution, in its present form, is sufficiently wide for me to put down such an Amendment. May I have an assurance from the Minister that this Resolution is sufficiently wide for such an Amendment, if put down, to be in order?
  Mr. Sandys: I can assure the hon. Member that the Money Resolution is drawn in such a way as to make it impossible for him to do what he says he wishes to do.
  Mr. Fletcher: Really. At the last moment we now learn that it will be impossible, within the framework of this Resolution, for an Amendment, which I think several of my hon. Friends think must be put down in order that justice may be done, to be put down. This is a most extraordinary situation. We have been denied the presence of any representative of the Treasury here tonight, and it is almost an insult to the Committee that that is so. This is the first time, at least within my experience, that, when the Committee is considering a Money Resolution, it has not had the benefit of the presence of a representative of the Treasury.
  Now, however, we know the reason for this absence. This Resolution is so tightly drawn that we are unable to put down Amendments in order to increase the Exchequer contribution. There has been the greatest secrecy about what formula has been devised, and I cannot believe that it is acceptable to any local authority that the Exchequer contribution should be limited as it is limited under the definition in Clause 11. It is quite certainly not acceptable to the local authority at Islington nor, I suggest, to those in other parts of London. I feel that we are entitled to ask that this Money Resolution be taken back and redrafted so that it may be extended and widened in order that we may consider such an Amendment in Committee.
  11.0 p.m.
  All we are asking is that when we come to the Committee stage we shall have an opportunity of putting forward on behalf of the local authorities the case we want to put forward. I am not going to argue the case now. The Minister may want to

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  argue against it. But unless this Resolution is changed, we shall be deprived of the opportunity of putting forward those arguments. I am quite sure that that is not what the Minister wants. I urge him to adjourn this debate so that the Money Resolution may be recast.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: A very serious situation has arisen. The core of the Bill is financial, and deals with local authorities. Now the right hon. Gentleman has risen and blandly assured us, to the great delight of hon. Members opposite—that during the Committee stage we shall not be able to do anything on a matter which vital. 1 do not know why they should dislike local authorities so much; so far as I know, local authorities have done them no harm; local authorities are doing a wonderful job of work in this direction and will suffer great financial loss and find it difficult to make ends meet, as we have been told in this debate. That will turn the Committee stage into a farce.
  I must add my plea to that made by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher). If no sums are mentioned in the Money Resolution, and we have not been told what the total cost is to be, why should the Minister put in a percentage of this kind which goes to the root of the main provision of the Bill? We must ask the right hon. Gentleman why he did this. It has undoubtedly hamstrung further proceedings on the Bill.
  Today we have been treated in a very shabby fashion. The right hon. Gentleman did not speak until the end of the debate, and even then left to the fag-end of what he had to say any reference whatever to the formula of the financial provisions which underlie this Measure. 1 was not quarrelling with the length of the Money Resolution. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that that was my objection. My objection is that we got no explanation from the Government Front Bench and had to drag the right hon. Gentleman to his feet, and then got an inadequate explanation.
  We cannot leave the matter where it is. The Opposition have been treated in far too cavalier a fashion. We owe a duty to the nation to demand that this matter shall be tackled with more seriousness than has been shown by the Minister. I
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  want to ask him if he will rise in his place and assure us that he is willing to take back this Resolution to leave the percentage at large, so that we can at any rate discuss this with some reality when we reach the Committee stage.
  Mr. Sparks: I did not clearly understand the answer which the Minister gave to me concerning the point I made about Clause 11. Am I to understand that the provisions included in Clause 11, which are financial provisions, apply only to purchases by local authorities of requisitioned dwellings before 31st March, 1960? I ask that because, in winding up the debate, the Minister frankly admitted that at that date there would still be a number of houses containing licensees not otherwise accommodated. He hoped that on that date, when the houses became derequisitioned and the licensees became trespassers, that the local authority would be able to persuade the owner either to take over the existing tenants, or trespassers, or that the local authority might arrange a tenancy with the owner, or take such a house on a lease for a period, or probably even purchase the house, to give security to the families already in it.
  My point is whether the financial provisions of Clause 11 apply to cases where local authorities, after 31st March, 1960, take out leases, or buy houses, to accommodate families who will then be trespassers. I see no reason why these financial provisions should not be extended for a period, if the right hon. Gentleman wishes, after 31st March, 1960, because he has admitted that at that date there will still be a problem outstanding. It would be satisfactory if he could give an asurance that these provisions will apply to such cases. If his answer is in the negative, he will be making it far more difficult for these families who will be left to avoid the risk of being placed on the street. Therefore, I would beg the Minister to answer in the affirmative.
  Mr. Awbery: May I put a question to you, Sir Charles? What procedure can we now take to ensure that the House has an opportunity to discuss the grant to be made by the Treasury to the local authorities?
  The Chairman: I suppose the answer is by dividing against this Money Resolution.
  Mr. Sandys: Perhaps I might answer the points raised. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley said that the party opposite might wish to increase the percentage of the grants in respect of purchases of houses by local authorities. He said we were denying his party the right to protect the interests of the local authorities. As I have explained, I think local authorities are able to protect themselves without assistance. We have had long discussions. There has been considerable consultation. These arrangements are satisfactory to both sides.
  The local authorities attached great importance to one point. That was that the percentage grants in respect of these various transactions under the Bill relating to requisitioned houses should be on the same basis as the existing grants and subsidies for normal houses, which is 75 per cent., or three to one. That is the basis we have followed. It seems to me eminently reasonable, and there is a principle which is well-established to justify it. That is why we have adopted this formula.
  The hon. Member for Acton asked me about a point which I would like to clear up. That was, whether purchases of houses after 31st March, 1960, rank for grant. I think it is unlikely that local authorities will wish to purchase houses after that date. I hope that any purchases they have to make will be made before that date because of the difficulty that the houses will be legally released on 1st April. Therefore it would be remiss of them if they left that over until then. But, should they do so, the Bill does, in fact, enable them to claim grants for the purchase of houses made after 1960, provided that those purchases are for the purposes of this Bill.
  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

  CENTRAL LAND BOARD PAYMENTS REGULATIONS
  11.11 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Irvine: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Central Land Board Payments Regulations, 1954 (S.I., 1954, No. 1599), dated 1st December, 1954, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be annulled.
  In the short time available for this subject to be considered, I desire to draw attention to certain features of these Regulations—and of the other Regulations also mentioned on the Order Paper, relating to the Town and Country Planning (Compensation) Regulations, 1954— which we think are open to serious objection. These Regulations deal with applications to the Central Land Board for payment under Part I of the 1954 Act. We, on this side of the House, are opposed to the policy contained in that Act. We have fought that battle and it is over, and now, although we do not approve or like the policy adopted, we are anxious to see it administered fairly, reasonably, and equitably.
  We do not think that these Regulations provide for reasonable and equitable administration. We do not want to see bureaucracy and red tape being allowed —in the fashion they are being allowed by these Regulations—to create unfairnesses between the parties and to give rise to unnecessary confusion. Of course, to the extent that we on this side approve a greater degree of State intervention in affairs, to that extent we have a special interest to ensure that, wherever possible. the administration is made efficient and sound.
  With these considerations in mind, I would ask the House to glance at the proviso to Regulation 5. It is one of the most shockingly arbitrary things that I have ever read, even in a Statutory Instrument. Here we are dealing with the machinery of applying for payments, the particulars which must be entered on the form, and the particulars additional to those for which the form provides which may be required by the Central Land Board. The proviso reads:
  Provided that where the applicant has failed to furnish any particulars or evidence required by the Board under the last preceding

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  regulation the Board may defer the determination of the application until after such particulars and evidence have been duly furnished, or if they at any time think fit may determine the application notwithstanding such failure, and in so doing may disregard any particulars already supplied by the applicant to which such requirement had reference.
  That is bureaucracy gone rampant.
  An applicant may offer in his application certain particulars, the accuracy and correctness of which may not be questioned by the Central Land Board at any time—particulars about which the Board may feel the need to make further inquiries but which are not inaccurate in themselves. The Board is invited in certain situations to disregard the particulars which have been submitted even though they may be accurate and correct.
  The point is that if a free vote were taken in the House upon the merits of this proviso, it would be disapproved by an overwhelming majority. The Departments are taking advantage of the exigencies of our Parliamentary system, as they take advantage of everything else, in order to extend their powers. But I am bound to say that it would have been a most shameful thing if this kind of proviso got through without adverse comment from the House.
  Sir Ian Horobin: Surely the hon. Member will bear in mind that there is an appeal allowed to the Lands Tribunal, and if the hon. Gentleman suggests that this procedure is a gross abuse, surely the Lands Tribunal will so decide.
  Mr. Irvine: There may or may not be something in that, but it is highly unsatisfactory to incorporate such a provision in the Regulations. It is not good enough to defend an obvious abuse on the ground that it can be appealed against, or to defend sin on the ground that one can afterwards be penitent.
  The proviso, taken by itself, is, I should have thought, plainly unsatisfactory. The House will observe the arbitrariness of the first sub-paragraph of this Regulation, which enables the Board to consider any particulars supplied and to take such steps
  "as they may deem requisite for a proper determination of the application, and shall thereafter determine the amount…"
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  The Board may take any steps that it may deem requisite for the purpose of making its determination without any kind of safeguard or limit whatsoever. One might expect a proviso following a provision of that kind to be a limiting proviso. Instead, it has the characteristics which I have just pointed out, of extending and underlining the arbitrary powers of the Board in this connection. I feel, therefore, that these Regulations are in this respect thoroughly unsatisfactory.
  I desire to draw attention also to Regulation 6 (3) which deals with a point which received some consideration in the Standing Committee. That Regulation provides that a person
  "who establishes that he is entitled to an interest in land which is substantially affected by that apportionment"
  may take the matter to the Lands Tribunal. We were told that what was ambiguous in the Act would be made plain in the Regulations. But the contrary has occurred, and it remains entirely in doubt where a person goes in order to determine whether he has
  "an interest in land which is substantially affected …"
  He may be a person who has not received a notification from the Central Land Board. He may think that his interest is substantially affected, without any notification or without the matter having been brought to his attention by any civil servant. He may look at the Regulation and see that if he has an interest in land which is substantially affected he has a right of appeal, but he receives not the slightest guidance or indication as to which tribunal he should approach in order that the question whether or not he has an interest which is substantially affected—in other words, whether he is eligible to appeal—may be determined.
  The Regulation also deals with the method of making the application upon the prescribed form. It insists that the prescribed form and no other shall be used. In my view, it does so entirely arbitrarily. In the other Regulations mentioned on the Order Paper, Statutory Instrument No. 1600, to which I referred at the beginning of my speech, express provision is made that an application must be made upon the prescribed form or "substantially in the form"; that reasonable provision also appears in the Regulations covering appeals to the

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  Lands Tribunal. Why has the Department taken it upon itself in this Regulation to require the use of the prescribed form and no other?
  I would add a word about the time factor. Bearing in mind the complexities of the matter, the amount of research which has to be done and the difficulties involved in the making of a claim, how ludicrous it is, I suggest, that only four months from the commencement of the Act should be available for completing this process.
  I am afraid that I have occupied a disproportionate amount of the time available for this debate but I have sought to draw attention to what I conceive to be manifold objections to the Regulations because of their arbitrary, bureaucratic and inequitable character. I feel that the liberty of the subject is affected—a matter of significance and importance to both sides of the House.
  11.23 p.m.
  Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas: I beg to second the Motion.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) has drawn attention to important points reflecting on the way in which these Regulations are drawn. They are points of particular importance, because the Regulations strengthen the hands of the bureaucracy in dealing with the rights of citizens. This is the sort of thing which is always apt to happen unless we have a Minister who is completely on top of the job and who deals personally with the Regulations when they are in course of preparation.
  It is no use waiting for the Regulations to come before the House and then putting up a fight in their defence. What is essential in this case is that there should be personal investigation by the political heads of the Department into the form of these Regulations, otherwise this kind of thing is bound to occur.
  The matters to which my hon. Friend drew attention were contained in the proviso to Regulation 5 (1). I must say that this strikes me as rather an odd provision. Where the applicant fails to provide particulars required by the Board, then the Board is at liberty to disregard any particulars which he has already provided. This is not a Regulation for the punishment of citizens. The Board is supposed to be instigating a
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  bona fide investigation, in accordance with its duties, into the matters before it. Why is it to be at liberty to disregard the particulars which have already been provided? What is the point?
  I have a great respect for the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Sir I. Horobin), who intervened a little while ago. He and I dealt with each other over a period of many weeks in the course of the Committee stage of the Act. But I cannot understand his point about an appeal to the Lands Tribunal. If there is some danger of a gross miscarriage of justice
  Sir I. Horobin: There is no question of a "grim miscarriage of justice." If the claimant disputes the use made of the machinery he can automatically use the next part of this Regulation. The Lands Tribunal will protect him. This is purely machinery to make a speedy determination.
  Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: —I understood from the hon. Member that that was to be rectified somehow by an appeal to the Tribunal.
  Why should we not have a regulation in the form that there should be no provision at all for discretion to disregard the particulars which have already been given? I understand that there may be some special circumstances in which the particulars already provided may be affected by the information that might be forthcoming in answer to the inquiries which the Board puts to the applicant. I can understand that.
  If there are cases of that kind they should be hedged about and particularised in the Regulations themselves. We should not leave a wide open discretion to the Board itself, in all cases, to disregard any particulars which have been supplied, with no other requirement than simply the applicant's failure to furnish particulars for which the Board has asked. That will not do. It is an arbitrary provision which simply should not be permitted.
  It is very unfortunate that we should have coming before the House Regulations which are already in operation before we can pray against them, which are not subject to amendment, which are dealt with at this late hour and which contain provisions affecting the rights of citizens. It therefore makes it all the more incumbent upon political heads of these

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  Departments, before any Prayer is placed on the Order Paper against the Regulations, to take care, while they are actually in process of being formed, to see that there are no objectionable provisions in them.
  There is also the other provision to which my hon. Friend the Member for Edge Hill referred. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to provide a reply which will be rather more reassuring than would appear on the face of the Regulations.
  11.29 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): I am sorry that owing to a combination of circumstances the debate which was initiated by the hon. Member for Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) has not had as much time for discussion as I quite appreciate should be given to this subject.
  I want to take up what was said by the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, North-East (Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas) about care in the preparation of the Regulations. In my short time at the Ministry two or three sets of Regulations have been brought before the House. These Regulations are not prepared in the manner which the hon. and learned Member seemed to suggest. They are treated with very considerable care.
  I assure him that after the care which was exercised in getting through the House both Acts of Parliament, nothing was left to chance. I am not like the hon. and learned Gentleman, a lawyer, but I assure him that the greatest care has been taken, generally speaking, in the framing of the Regulations. Perhaps I can make a start at least to answer the points which were raised by the hon. Member for Edge Hill.
  It being half-past Eleven o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER, being of opinion that, owing to the lateness of the hour at which consideration of the Motion was entered upon, the time for debate had not been adequate, interrupted the business, pursuant to Order [1st December], and the debate stood adjourned till To-morrow.

  HOUSING SITE, PITSTONE (ACQUISITION)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. R. Thompson.]
  11.30 p.m
  Major Sir Frank Markham: After the wide-ranging debate today, in which the Parliamentary Secretary has been fully occupied from Question time until 11.30 p.m., I feel almost a sense of contrition in bringing to your notice, Mr. Speaker, and to his notice, yet another matter which impinges on his Ministry. But I do this knowing full well that I am obeying one of the great traditions of Parliament, which is that if any citizen of Her Majesty has a grievance, he can call on his Member to express that grievance in the House of Commons, and initiate a debate on the subject.
  It is with that great tradition in mind that I raise tonight the question of the treatment of Mr. Mark Williamson, of Pitstone, Bucks. Mr. Williamson is a well-respected farmer, a member of a farming family who have lived for generations in that neighbourhood. The village of Pitstone, in which he lives, in my constituency, lies at the foot of the Chiltern Hills, and has immediately around it some of the finest agricultural land in the country.
  This village is in the Wing Rural District Council area, and in the last few years the rural district council has been faced with the problem of catching up with arrears in housing. May I add that I have not been behindhand in pressing them to face up to those grave responsibilities which have been thrust on them, because, in addition to the ordinary shortage of housing, the council had to face in these post-war years a formidable squatter problem, of families invading the old airfields and Army camps and staying in the Army and Air Force huts.
  The Wing Rural District Council has been trying to meet this problem by arranging to build blocks of houses in various villages throughout the rural district council area. I do not wish to make any criticism of the Wing Rural District Council, for it has had

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  tremendous difficulties, and I should like to think that it is within measurable distance of meeting those difficulties now, after making so much effort in the last few years.
  In the process of carrying out its policy it became evident that in addition to existing demands, the Cement Tunnel Company of Pitstone wanted more houses for its workers. The company might have thought that as it had large areas of land in Pitstone it should provide an area of its own land and perhaps build its own houses. For some reason or other that policy was not followed, and the Wing Rural District Council decided to go ahead with the building of a dozen houses, and for this purpose, in conjunction with the Ministry, investigated several alternative sites.
  From my point of view, I would say that the wrong site was chosen, and I speak now without any reference to Mr. Williamson. I know the village well, and it was not unknown to me in my boyhood days. The 1½ acres site that has now been chosen is, first, at the wrong end of the village, that is to say, while the main village lies to the south of the Luton-Dunstable road this new housing estate is to the north of that road. Not only is it at the wrong end of the village, but it is almost a mile from the school, the church, and all the normal activities that go with the village, including, of course, one of the "locals." Children in this new small housing estate will, therefore, have to go nearly a mile to school or church.
  In addition to that the land is first-class agricultural land and capable of becoming really good market gardening land. There is also what can only be described as very definite tendency towards bogginess, and I am quite sure that houses built on this site will not stand as well as houses built where the land is less boggy, that is, on one of the other sites which could have been selected.
  Moreover the land is at least 50 yards from the nearest sewer, and this may add point to my appeal that public opinion in the village, whether voiced by the vicar, parish and other local councillors, or the local representatives of the National Farmers' Union, states that this is not the best site. I am sure the Minister has a map before him, and if he looks at it he will see on it Nos. 3 and 4 sites and,
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  knowing these various sites I would say that either of these is preferable to the one chosen. Another site, No. 5, which was not seen by the Ministry's inspector when he went down, is probably better still.
  I come now to Mr. Mark Williamson. Although he and his family had been farmers in this neighbourhood for generations, it was only in November, 1953, that he acquired this land. At that time there was no compulsory purchase order on it, and as far as I am aware there was no thought of one. He bought the land hoping to be able to develop it as orchards and for market gardening. Two months later, as it were out of the blue, came this order to dispossess him of 1½ acres of the best of that land. I know the Ministry has met him to a small degree by altering the shape of the land that it wants to take, but the point is it is taking 1½ acres out of 50 acres, which is severe punishment.
  My point is that the Ministry have not only taken a site unsuitable in several ways but, secondly, they have taken a site the loss of which inflicts undue hardship on the owner. I do not think the Ministry, when investigating this through its inspector, gave full effect to the harm likely to be done to this small farm.
  The sequence of events was this. I have already mentioned that Mr. Williamson bought the land in November, 1953. The first indication he had that a compulsory purchase order was likely to be served was in January, 1954, two months later. It may be said that that was unfortunate for Mr. Williamson. It was distinctly unfortunate. An objection was lodged by him on 20th January, 1954. In April, a public inquiry was held. The objection was overruled and the order was again served, on 6th July, and a Press notice was published on 17th August. There was some delay there which has never been satisfactorily explained.
  I know that it means that Mr. Williamson has got the use of the land, possibly for a year or six months longer than he would have done. But the point is that the Press notice and order should have occurred as near together as possible, and this was not done. Matters have gone on. Mr. Williamson has made every conceivable protest without any effect. He is not a wealthy man, but he

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  has gone to the expense of consulting solicitors and even counsel, on the point. He is up against that most extraordinary situation which we in this House deplore, that is, when citizens find themselves up against a Ministry which is at once counsel for the prosecution and judge and jury. That is the situation here.
  Mr. Williamson was aggrieved by this decision. I have already said that he asked for a public inquiry. But the public inquiry is conducted by the Ministry whose decision he is opposing, by the Ministry's own officials, and when it comes to the final decision, it is the Ministry of the Crown against which the little man is protesting which is the last court of appeal. And there is left only the traditional right of raising in this House the case of the little man against the Ministry.
  The Minister must have read these documents, of which there have been many. I have a great portfolio of letters dealing with the case. Frankly, I should have raised it long before in the House but for the fact that I was told by the Minister of Agriculture that as it was sub judice nothing could be done. That was in February, 1954. And from many points of view it might still be regarded as sub judice, because the district valuers have not yet come to an agreement, and there is still the question of the final decision of the Lands Tribunal.
  The point I want to make tonight is that when a man who is not a wealthy man is up against a Ministry, then everything is in favour of the Ministry and against the little man. The very men who are sent down to investigate these cases are officials of the Ministry concerned, and I do not like that. I think it is one of the less likeable things about the system under which matters like this are dealt with in this country.
  Therefore I appeal to the Minister, who has shown so much brilliance and pertinacity in the few weeks that he has been in office, not to give me the cut-and-dried answer tonight that this is going through the usual channels. I want my hon. Friend to look into this matter personally, to take it up as he would if he were an independent judge—to go into this case root and branch. I ask him to do two things. The first is to quash this compulsory purchase order.
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  The Minister himself did this with the Bletchley Compulsory Purchase Order that I opposed only a few months ago. Strong as the arguments were that the order should be quashed in the case of Bletchley, there is a stronger case for the quashing of this order on the land of Mr. Mark Williamson in Pitstone.
  Secondly, if because of the law my hon. Friend finds that he is prevented from doing that, then let him see to it that this small farmer, my constituent, gets adequate compensation. One of the greatest grievances of farmers, when land is taken from them by compulsory purchase, is that the compensation paid is a mere pittance compared with what the land would have fetched had it been freely sold as potential building land. The position then is that, in the first place, the man does not get justice when he is up against a great Ministry and, secondly, when the Ministry has exercised its rights and expropriated him, he does not get adequate compensation.
  That is my case regarding Mr. Mark Williamson at Pitstone, a small man up against a tremendous Ministry, with all its ramifications. I ask that justice be done so that this man shall have a fair hearing by an independent tribunal, and not be judged by the same Ministry which has taken his land from him.
  11.44 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): Since last midsummer, when this order for the land held by Mr. Mark Williamson was approved by the Minister, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) has shown close interest— I might almost say vigilance—over this case. I can assure him that I fully appreciate his motives, and I have no quarrel with them. Certainly his constituents will not have, for they will have reason to be grateful to him. I can assure him that my answer will not be a cut-and-dried one because I have read all the available documents on this case and I can now claim to know almost as much about them as my hon. and gallant Friend.
  It is inevitable that a great many orders of this kind are necessary for public housing. I do not accept the strictures on the system made by my

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  hon. and gallant Friend. The fact is that all these orders receive careful and conscientious scrutiny—much more than many people are inclined to believe. However it is not a bad thing that from time to time one of them, such as this, should be hauled up into the light of day and subjected to very searching criticisms to which answers have to be found.
  It is a very good thing. I welcome the opportunity, and I will try to find the answer. It is thirteen months since Wing Rural District Council made a compulsory purchase order on about 1acres of arable land in the parish of Pitstone, on land which was the property of the Williamson Brothers. Both Mr. Mark Williamson and his brother Humphrey, objected to the order, and there was a public hearing on 1st April, 1954. In June the order was confirmed by the then Minister, with a small modification.
  My hon. Friend raised one other small point, which was that in July last year, notice of appeal was given in the High Court on the ground that the order was invalid because the acquiring authority had failed to observe the Statutory Rule of advertising in a newspaper. But this notice of appeal was withdrawn by the owners, and I do not think there is need for me to make any further comment on that.
  After the Minister had confirmed the order, Mr. Williamson felt that a great injustice had been done to him, and both he, and my hon. and gallant Friend, have written to the Minister on more than one occasion. I have no dispute with most of what my hon. and gallant Friend has said, and I should like to enumerate some of the facts. Wing Rural District Council had, when the count was made last June, 260 applicants for housing, and Pitstone has at present 22 on the waiting list. The council made the order with the object of building 12 houses on the site, which is the subject of the dispute, and I should like first to say something about the alternative sites, about which much was said at the inquiry, and which my hon. Friend has mentioned.
  Pitstone is a fairly open village with no definite centre, extending perhaps a mile between Pitstone and Pitstone Green, and rather less between the rail-
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  way station and Ivinghoe. The council had been in search of a site since October, 1952, and decided on this one only after much deliberation. It had considered four alternatives and what happened to those was as follows; one was ruled out because of the possible future new by-pass; planning authority was refused for housing. Two were turned down on grounds that they were too near the cement works, and on the fourth, which was church land—and that has no immediate bearing on this matter —'the cost of sewer connection would have been more expensive than 12 houses warranted.
  None, I might add, were put to the test of a compulsory purchase order, and therefore, we do not know if there were any significant objections by owners; but there may have been. All this may be arguable, but I mention it because it does indicate that the council did give great thought to the matter, and it was all gone over when the inspector held his inquiry.
  My hon. Friend then mentioned the distance of this site from the local school which is, in fact, nine-tenths of a mile. It is a highly controversial question nowadays as to how far juniors should be expected to walk to and from school, and I am not entering into that aspect of the matter; but I must say that if nine-tenths of a mile distance from a school ruled out a council estate, then many which have been built would not have been built, and many in course of erection would not have been started. Then there is the statement that the children have to cross the Luton—Aylesbury road. But there is another estate on that same road —on the same side as this proposed site— and I have no evidence of any accidents having occurred.
  A third point—it is a difficult one—was the question of dust from the cement factory. The site was said to be within the dust belt spread by the Pitstone Cement Works. To some extent the whole village suffers, and some administrative action is being taken to reduce that nuisance. When the inspector saw the site on 1st April, 1954, there was very little trace of dust.
  There is a feeling, which Mr. Williamson expressed in a letter which he wrote to the Minister, that these houses will be used for cement factory workers.

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  He felt that the cement company should build its own houses on its own land. There are three answers to that. The first is that the company is in fact already building. The second is that there is a need for houses in Pitstone apart from the need of the cement workers. Thirdly, the Council could not have insisted that the cement company should build houses for its own people.
  Now I come to what the hon. and gallant Member said was the most important part of all, which is Mr. Williamson's position, because he is the aggrieved party. He feels a great injustice is being done, and certainly feels, in fact he has suggested it, that the inquiry was biased. That certainly was not the case. I have read the whole proceedings, and the inspector has obviously done his job fairly and with marked objectivity. These inquiries are held in a manner prescribed by law, and everyone is entitled to feel that the provisions are adequate, or otherwise. I will not argue that point. But any suggestion that there has been an avoidable miscarriage of justice must be faced squarely. I can assure my hon. Friend that there has been nothing of the kind.
  Mr. Williamson also has natural feelings about the ground belonging to his family 100 years ago and being bought back in only November, 1953. The answer to that briefly is that the owners were aware of the council's intention before they completed their repurchase.
  My right hon. Friend's predecessor, who had to consider this order, at once noted a point made by Mr. Williamson at the inquiry, namely the difficulty
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  created for ploughing by the shape of the site covered by the order. As a result of his action—and I stress that, because when I say these orders are looked at, I mean that they really are—the order was changed to cut off a corner and make the field an easier shape to plough. That answers one point, urged by my hon. and gallant Friend, which is that small affairs of small men are not given sufficient consideration. Another result was that only the poorest part of the land was taken.
  My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that the taking of any site in a small village is always unpopular and always a very difficult business. All kinds of considerations have to be weighed—agricultural land, alternatives, hardship, and so on. The result is seldom approved by all, least of all by the owner. I understand that the compensation has not yet been settled, but there is really no reason to suppose it will be unjust. I think that it will be found that the compensation in this case will be competently and sympathetically worked out. I do not want to prejudge it, because it is still under discussion. What we have to decide in this case, as indeed in the case of all orders, is whether the balance is fair and sensible, not whether the decision is popular.
  I hope that what I have said tonight will go some way towards satisfying my hon. and gallant Friend that a good deal of trouble was taken over this matter, and that, on balance, what was done was fair and sensible.
  Adjourned accordingly at six minutes to Twelve o'clock

BRITISH ARMY
  Gunsite, Trecastle (Expenditure)
  Gunsite, Trecastle (Expenditure)
  Anti-Aircraft Command (Personnel)
  Anti-Aircraft Command (Personnel)
  Languages (Tuition)
  Languages (Tuition)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Textile Industry (Foreign Imports)
  Textile Industry (Foreign Imports)
  Indian Jute Goods (Import Control)
  Indian Jute Goods (Import Control)
  Anglo-Brazilian Trade
  Anglo-Brazilian Trade
NATIONAL FINANCE
  British Petroleum Oil Company (Government Holding)
  British Petroleum Oil Company (Government Holding)
  Wages and Profits
  Wages and Profits
  Purchase Tax (Gloves)
  Purchase Tax (Gloves)
  Tax Receipts
  Tax Receipts
  Equal Pay (Pensions)
  Equal Pay (Pensions)
  Post-War Credits
  Post-War Credits
  MUSEUMS AND ART GALLERIES (THEFTS)
  MUSEUMS AND ART GALLERIES (THEFTS)
  SCOTCH WHISKY (CONSUMPTION)
  SCOTCH WHISKY (CONSUMPTION)
  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' MEETING
  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' MEETING
HOUSING
  Purchase (Local Authority Loans)
  Purchase (Local Authority Loans)
  Disrepair Certificates
  Disrepair Certificates
  Cannock
  Cannock
  Estate, Birmingham (Soundproofing Cost)
  Estate, Birmingham (Soundproofing Cost)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Reorganisation
  Reorganisation
  Mental Hospital Site, Stevenage
  Mental Hospital Site, Stevenage
  Employees (Retiring Age)
  Employees (Retiring Age)
  Town Development, Bletchley, Swindon and Worsley
  Town Development, Bletchley, Swindon and Worsley
  MINING SUBSIDENCE AREAS
  MINING SUBSIDENCE AREAS
EDUCATION, SCOTLAND
  University Students (Grants)
  University Students (Grants)
  University Bursaries (Cost)
  University Bursaries (Cost)
  Primary and Secondary Pupils (Maintenance Cost)
  Primary and Secondary Pupils (Maintenance Cost)
SCOTLAND
  Children, Bridge of Weir (Anti-Tuberculosis Vaccine)
  Children, Bridge of Weir (Anti-Tuberculosis Vaccine)
  Capital Punishment (Commission's Recommendations)
  Capital Punishment (Commission's Recommendations)
  Bankruptcies
  Bankruptcies
  Civic Centre, East Kilbride
  Civic Centre, East Kilbride
  Protection of Birds (Advisory Committee)
  Protection of Birds (Advisory Committee)
  Historic Buildings (Provisional Lists)
  Historic Buildings (Provisional Lists)
  WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (ARMS POOL)
  WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (ARMS POOL)
  GENERAL DISARMAMENT AND PARIS AGREEMENTS
  GENERAL DISARMAMENT AND PARIS AGREEMENTS
  GERMANY (WAR CRIMINALS)
  GERMANY (WAR CRIMINALS)
RESEARCH
  Air Pollution (Exhaust Fumes)
  Air Pollution (Exhaust Fumes)
  D.S.I.R. Buildings (Capital Expenditure)
  D.S.I.R. Buildings (Capital Expenditure)
MINISTRY OF FOOD
  Subsidies
  Subsidies
  Tea (Price)
  Tea (Price)
  Hygiene (Advisory Council)
  Hygiene (Advisory Council)
  ROAD FUND
  ROAD FUND
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (VACCINATION REGULATIONS)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (VACCINATION REGULATIONS)
  WEST AFRICAN STUDENTS (SCHOLARSHIPS, UNITED KINGDOM)
  WEST AFRICAN STUDENTS (SCHOLARSHIPS, UNITED KINGDOM)
  KENYA (PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION'S REPORT)
  KENYA (PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION'S REPORT)
  ANATOMY AND CORNEAL GRAFTING (BEQUESTS)
  ANATOMY AND CORNEAL GRAFTING (BEQUESTS)
  Electoral Registers (Service Voters)
  Electoral Registers (Service Voters)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Drunkenness, London (Prosecutions)
  Drunkenness, London (Prosecutions)
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT (HOSIERY FINISHERS, BASFORD)
  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT (HOSIERY FINISHERS, BASFORD)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Morley Exchange
  Morley Exchange
  Installations, Scotland
  Installations, Scotland
  POST OFFICE FACILITIES, LINCOLN
  POST OFFICE FACILITIES, LINCOLN
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  PROPOSED NEW TUBE RAILWAY
  2.35 p.m.
  EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the event of a new Tube being constructed from Victoria to North London, assurances can be given that the Tube would be constructed at such a depth that it would not prevent road tunnels being made at important road intersections where necessary.]
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, enabling powers for the construction of an underground railway from Victoria to Walthamstow are included in the British Transport Commission's Bill now before Parliament. The railway tunnel will generally be deep enough for any road tunnels which it may be proposed to construct above it, except at Oxford Circus where a new sub-surface station is to be built. The London County Council, as the highway improvement authority, have not, so far as I am aware, objected to this part of the plan.

MARKING OF JAPANESE GOODS
2.36 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that it is alleged that the Japanese are now marking some of their textiles and other goods with the words "Made as in England," and printed in such a way as to give the impression that the goods are made in England, and whether Her Majesty's Government will investigate this and if the truth is established, whether they can take, any steps to discourage this practice.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT: (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have had a number of reports, affecting wool textiles, but not other goods, that imports from Japan into overseas markets have been received with such phrases as "Made as in England" woven in the selvedges. The United Kingdom wool industry have made representations to the Japanese industry about this and other practices which are inconsistent with the Code of Fair Trading of the International Wool Textile Organisation of which the Japanese industry are members. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Tokyo has also raised the matter with the President of the Federation of Japan Wool Spinners' and Importers' Associations. I understand that, as a result, the responsible organisations of the Japanese

3
wool industry have promised to use their influence to stop these practices and to encourage observance of the Code of Fair Trading. It is as yet too early, however, for the effects to be seen.
I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that Her Majesty's Government intend to do everything possible to discourage unfair practices of this kind and are prepared to consider taking up with the Japanese Government any instances of misleading markings of which concrete evidence is produced.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Will the noble Lord accept my thanks for the fullness of his Answer? As this is a particularly mean practice, the word "as" being of microscopic size, would Her Majesty's Government convey to the Japanese Government that the cause in which many of us are sincerely interested—that is, the rehabilitation of the Japanese economy—is not helped by practices of this kind?
LORD MANCROFT: I will certainly do that, but I think the Japanese Government are well aware of the sentiments which the noble Lord has just expressed.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that prior to 1914 we had the same difficulty from Germany in the worsted woollen industry, and that His Majesty's Government of that day made a regulation that everything coming from Germany had to be marked "Made in Germany." This problem has been outstanding now for some months, and I think the noble Lord, with his energy and wisdom, might take action and tell these people what to do and "where to get off."
LORD MANCROFT: I sympathise fully with the indignation of the noble Lord. I can assure him that to a very large degree Her Majesty's Government share his feelings.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: May I ask the noble Lord whether there is any evidence of the import of textiles marked as described in the Question into this country or into any countries of the British Commonwealth?
LORD MANCROFT: There is no actual evidence of textiles of this nature being imported into this country, but the repute and widespread nature of this story
4
makes us feel that it must contain a strong element of truth. At this moment a case is being investigated by Her Majesty's Ambassador in Teheran. The answer to the noble Lord's question, however, is that we have no concrete proof of imports into this country.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: I was going to suggest that if there were such proof, arrangements might be made to refuse admission for goods marked thus into this country or any country over which we have any control.
LORD MANCROFT: That is a slightly different matter, but I will certainly bear in mind what the noble Lord has said.

PEACEFUL USES OF ATOMIC ENERGY
2.42 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I feel that the House will wish to have the latest news regarding the peaceful uses of atomic energy in this country. As your Lordships are aware, much progress has been made in developing these uses. Already research, medicine and industry have made great and growing use of the isotopes manufactured at Harwell and substantial quantities have been sold to overseas customers. I can to-day in addition announce that our knowledge of the means of producing electricity from atomic power on a large scale has, thanks to the efforts of the Atomic Energy Authority and its predecessors, now reached the stage when it has become possible for Her Majesty's Government to decide to embark on a programme of big nuclear power stations comparable in output to modern coal-fired stations. In our view the successful use of atomic energy to generate electrical power on a commercial basis is of crucial importance to the future of the national economy.
Her Majesty's Government also look forward to the time when the United Kingdom will be able to assist other countries, not only, as now, with their research and development programmes and with training their scientists and engineers, but also by exporting nuclear power stations for the generation of electricity, especially in areas where generation by other means may be difficult or

5
more expensive. Copies of the White Paper describing the provisional programme drawn up by the Government for the construction and development of nuclear power reactors over the next ten years or so will be available in the Printed Paper Office at 3.30 p.m.
2.44 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, we have missed the noble Marquess for the last few days, and the reason for his absence we can understand only too well. We welcome him back, and we welcome him with all the more enthusiasm because he has made this statement. I doubt whether this House has ever, in its long history, listened to a statement of greater significance than that which we have just heard. This is indeed a matter of crucial importance to the future of our national economy. I should like to think that the money which in hard days we put aside for research is thus, in a very short space of years, already showing signs of returning a dividend which looks to be immense.
I should like to ask the noble Marquess three questions. He may tell me that if I restrain my curiosity until 3.30 I shall have answers to all of them. None the less, I should like to ask them, in case they are not answered in the White Paper. The first question concerns cost. The noble Marquess spoke about the output being comparable to that of modern coal-fired stations. I realise that costs will probably come down as technique develops, but is the noble Marquess able to say at the present time that the cost is also likely to be comparable with that of the coal-fired stations? My second question concerns pollution. It is sometimes said that to-day the electricity stations are themselves a potent source of pollution. Am I right in assuming that that pollution will be avoided if and when the time comes when we can switch over to nuclear stations? Thirdly, I should like to ask a question about raw materials. I am not going to expose my ignorance about this matter, but I would ask the Government to be quite sure that we have available, and continue to have available, sufficient reserves of the raw material to work these stations, so that we may continue to work them even if trouble should arise in other parts of the world. It may be, as I have said, that at 3.30 I shall know the answers to these questions, but I should be grateful if the noble Marquess could say a word or two on those topics.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, with regard to the first question which the noble and learned Earl has asked, the view of the experts is that the present price—that is to say, the price when the first electricity is fed into the grid—should be comparable with the existing price of electricity produced by what we must now call conventional means—that is, by coal-fired stations. So far as pollution is concerned, of course, any pollution there may be is in a rather different form from that which one might expect from a coal-fired station. I would rather not go into details without notice, because it is an extremely delicate and technical subject. All I can tell the noble and learned Earl to-day is that I have consulted all my experts on the subject, and they are absolutely convinced that there is no danger to the public in any pollution from such sources. As I say, I do not want to go any further into this question: I know that it is one upon which public opinion is very sensitive. But if the noble and learned Earl cares to put down a Question, I shall be glad to answer it.
With regard to raw materials, the view is that there is not likely to be a shortage of raw material; that is, of uranium. After all, uranium was not very much required before, and therefore was not very much exploited; but the more it is required, the more uranium, it appears, is likely to be found, and, in fact, is already being found. Apart from the United States and Canada, other main sources of supply are South Africa and Portugal, where we get a certain amount, and we hope also to get some from Australia. Generally, I think the view is that there is no need to worry about supplies of uranium for the purpose of this programme.
EARL JOWITT: I am much obliged.
VISCOUNT THURSO: My Lords, would the Lord President say whether he is quite satisfied about safety precautions, particularly as some of these new stations will, I imagine, be set up near sizable centres of population? Sir Christopher Hinton made a speech in New York last spring, in which he said that nobody quite knew what would happen if one of the fast breeder reactors "got away"; and he appealed to the American scientists and workers on this subject to

7
provide a desert where an experiment of this kind could be made. Few things would be more helpful to the progress of the practical development of atomic energy, he said, than to let a station "go" and see what would happen if an explosion occurred. He suggested to the Americans that we might co-operate in finding a place where such an experiment could be undertaken. So far as I know, no such experiment has been undertaken. Could the Lord President say whether he is now satisfied that, as the result of further experiment, the fears which Sir Christopher Hinton expressed in New York have proved to be groundless?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am quite certain Sir Christopher Hinton would be the last person to suggest that any nuclear power station, whether a fast breeder or otherwise, should be put up until we have overcome all these dangers. The fast breeder reactor, which I think the noble Viscount has particularly in mind, and which it is proposed, as he knows, to put up in the north of Scotland, is at present the subject of extensive experiments of every kind. I can assure him that there is no intention of running any risk in this matter, and that this question of security is one which is being studied in connection with the setting up of all other such stations.
So far as the setting up of these stations in highly populated districts is concerned, which the noble Viscount also mentioned, the siting of the stations will, of course, be primarily a matter for the British Electricity Authority, because they are responsible for the electricity supply of the country. No doubt they will place the stations in various situations where they will be of most use. But until it is clearly demonstrated to the public that there is no danger in these stations, it would not, I think, be wise to put them in the centre of highly populated areas, not because they are dangerous, but because people might be nervous.
LORD REA: My Lords, as one who lives in the shadow of a reactor in a very under-populated area, I should like to express to the noble Marquess the thanks of those who are similarly placed for his reassurance.

COPYRIGHT AND TELEVISION EXHIBITING RIGHT BILL [H.L.]
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to effect amendments in the law relating to copyright necessitated by or arising out of certain International Conventions and agreements, and to create certain rights as to the public reception and reproduction of television broadcasts; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid. I beg to move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]
2.51 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 1:
Tests of satisfactory condition of vehicles
1.—(1) For the purpose of ascertaining whether the prescribed statutory requirements relating to the construction and condition of motor vehicles or their accessories or equipment are complied with, the Minister may make provision for the examination, whether by inspectors appointed by the Minister or by other persons (hereinafter referred to as "authorised examiners") authorised by him, of vehicles submitted for examination under this section and for the issue, where it is found on such an examination that the said requirements are complied with, of a certificate (hereinafter referred to as a "test certificate") that at the date of the examination the requirements were complied with in relation to the vehicle.
(2) Where a test certificate is refused on an examination under the foregoing subsection, the inspector or examiner carrying out the examination shall issue a notification of the refusal stating the grounds thereof, and any person aggrieved by the refusal or the grounds thereof may appeal to the Minister; and on any such appeal the Minister shall cause a further examination to be made and either issue a test certificate or issue such a notification as aforesaid.
(3) For the purposes of his functions under this section the Minister may provide and maintain stations where examinations under this

9
section may be carried out and apparatus for carrying out such examinations.
(4) Any person who uses on a road or causes or permits to be so used a motor vehicle as respects which no test certificate has been issued within the last twelve months, or such shorter period as may be prescribed, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply—

(a) to public service vehicles adapted to carry eight or more passengers, to tramcars or to trolley vehicles,

(b) to the use of vehicles for such purposes as may be prescribed.

(5) If any person with intent to deceive falsely represents himself to be, or to be employed by, an authorised examiner he shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or both such fine and such imprisonment.
(6) The Minister may make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to the foregoing provisions of this section, and in particular as to—

(a) the authorisation of examiners, the imposition of conditions to be complied with by authorised examiners and the withdrawal of authorisations;

(b) the manner in which and apparatus with which examinations are to be carried out, the maintenance of that apparatus in an efficient condition, and the inspection of premises at which and apparatus with which examinations are being, or are to be, carried out;

(c) the manner in which applications may be made for the examination of vehicles under subsection (1) of this section, the manner in which and time within which appeals may be brought under subsection (2) of this section, the information to be supplied and documents to be produced on such an application, examination or appeal, the fees to be paid on such an application or appeal, and the repayment of the whole or a part of the fee paid on such an appeal where it appears to the Minister that there were substantial grounds for contesting the whole or part of the decision appealed against;

(d) the form of, and particulars to be contained in, test certificates and notifications of the refusal thereof;

(e) the issue of duplicates of test certificates lost or defaced and the fee to be paid for the issue thereof;

(f) the keeping by authorised examiners of registers of test certificates in the prescribed form and containing the prescribed particulars, and the inspection of such registers by such persons and in such circumstances as may be prescribed;

10

(g) the keeping of records by authorised examiners and the furnishing by them of returns and information to the Minister;

(h) the production, on an application for a licence under the Vehicles (Excise) Act, 1949, of a test certificate issued as mentioned in subsection (4) of this section, subject however to such exceptions as may be provided by the regulations,

and regulations under this section may make different provision in relation to different cases or classes of cases.
(7) Subsections (1), (3) and (4) of section one hundred and twelve of the Act of 1930 (which relate to forgery and other offences committed as respects certificates of insurance and other documents) shall apply to test certificates as they apply to certificates of insurance.
(8) If any person fails to comply with the requirements of regulations made by virtue of paragraph (f) or (g) of subsection (6) of this section, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or in the case of a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.
(9) The powers conferred by this section to make regulations and orders shall be exercisable by statutory instrument, and regulations under this section shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "whether," where that word first occurs. The noble Lord said: In moving the first of the 111 Amendments to this Bill, I would, with your Lordships' permission, make these preliminary observations. First, on behalf of noble Lords who sit on this side of your Lordships' House, may I recall that I said on Second Reading that at the Committee stage we would do all we could to help Her Majesty's Government improve this Bill. Every Amendment put down in my name has that intention; and on reading all the other Amendments I cannot find one in the name of any other noble Lord that has not the same objective. I hope, therefore, that we shall be able to end by improving this Bill. Secondly, in moving this Amendment, I would ask your Lordships to take into consideration Amendments Nos. 10, 11, 13, 14 and 15, because those are all consequential. The real heart of the Amendments that I am about to propose is Amendment No. 2 and not the one word that is dealt with in Amendment No. 1.
Subsection (1) of this clause says:
"… the Minister may make provision for the examination, whether by inspectors appointed

11
by the Minister or by other persons (hereinafter referred to as 'authorised examiners') authorised by him."
I take it that that wording means to embrace private industry in the motor vehicle retail and repairing trade. Let me tell your Lordships at once that I am fundamentally opposed to putting this responsibility upon private individuals and members of the motor industry. I do not often make this claim, but on this occasion I claim that I could speak for the entire motor industry in saying that it would be quite wrong to do so. It would put selected people in an invidious position vis-à-vis their own customers and in a still more invidious position with the customers of their competitors. I will not go into great detail upon that aspect, but, with your Lordships' permission, I shall make some points which may be thought to be a little away from the strict wording of the Amendment which I am moving but which, in fact, are very germane to the whole principle of this clause.
I have tried to preserve intact the approach which Her Majesty's Government consider is the right one for improving the mechanical efficiency of road vehicles, and on that aspect I want to tell the Minister in charge of the Bill that there is nothing between us. We are 100 per cent. behind him that everything possible should be done to see that vehicles using the roads of this country are in such mechanical condition that accidents which might be caused by mechanical failure are avoided. I am not going to make another Second Reading speech, but I gave figures in that speech, and I cannot gloss over the fact that, in my view, Her Majesty's Government are trying to cure something which, according to all the statistics, is of a very small nature when one considers the whole of the road accidents of this country. According to the Ministry of Transport statistics, the number of accidents attributable to mechanical failure represent 3 per cent., which is, I suppose, one of the smallest percentages of all the contributory factors that go to make up the appalling toll on the roads of this country.
I recognise the fact that Her Majesty's Government want to move in this way. Therefore I say one must leave out private enterprise; otherwise Her Majesty's Government are going to store
12
up for themselves a great deal of trouble. Once a selected number is taken—and I estimate it will take about 15,000 inspecting stations to do what Her Majesty's Government want to do—and you have taken private enterprise out of the picture and have said that the Government eventually must erect 15,000 stations and examine 5 million to 6 million vehicles, you face an absolute physical impossibility. That is so, even if the lesser provision of Clause 1 only of an examination every twelve months is carried out, quite apart from what is involved in the other words "or such lesser time." If examinations were held every six months there might be 12 million vehicles involved.
Passing to the next aspect, where it is said that an excise licence or renewal of an excise licence for a motor vehicle is contingent upon there being a fitness certificate, I say the position is still more impossible. I believe noble Lords will readily appreciate that when I point out that if a fitness certificate is issued for a vehicle upon January 2, 1955, and a renewal of the excise licence is wanted on January 1, 1956, the certificate of fitness is valid. Is there a noble Lord in this House with the slightest knowledge of mechanics who does not know that although one may issue a fitness certificate for the brakes and steering of any vehicle, they can be out of order and accident-prone within twenty-four hours? Then how long is this examination to take? In this matter I speak from a life's experience. A cursory examination of brakes by jacking up a wheel and turning it is no test at all. It does not tell whether there are any brake-linings on the brake shoes or whether those brakes will be any good in twenty-four hours' time. Any mechanic or apprentice-mechanic could fake any vehicle which is going into an inspecting station so that, unless the inspector makes a really thorough examination of the brakes alone, taking perhaps two hours, it would be worthless.
What of the conditions under which the vehicle operates? If one of these vehicles, whether it is a private motor car or a commercial vehicle, makes a specified and appointed visit to a testing station, is it imagined that that vehicle is going to the station in such a condition that it will not get a certificate? Will it be loaded with the same load that it habitually

13
carries? Consider the case of the small and antiquated motor car of the type of which your Lordships may have seen examples travelling along the Brighton road on a Sunday afternoon, carrying mother and father, auntie and uncle, the children and the dog. Will that little crowd be in the vehicle when it goes up for its examination? Then take the case of the commercial vehicle that is habitually overloaded. The older commercial vehicle is generally very much overloaded. But is it going to the station to be examined with a load on, or is it going empty? Of course, it will go empty.
I could go on for a long time in this strain. I hesitate to claim expert knowledge, for I see the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, is in the Chamber and I remember that he read me a homily one day the theme of which was: "never quote experts." But may I say that, speaking with some experience, in my view this is the wrong way to go to work, and, in a very few words, I am going to tell the noble Lord what I would do if I had to do the same thing—that is, to check and keep up to a certain standard the majority of the vehicles on the roads of this country. One can, of course, dismiss straight away the public service vehicles. They have to undergo examination at the present time. I think the noble Lord has two remedies ready to hand. On the Second Reading I pointed out the powers of the Minister of Transport under Construction and Use Regulation 103. There is power for any police officer, any examiner or any inspector appointed by the Ministry of Transport to stop any motor car or commercial vehicle and carry out an examination as set out in the regulation. I said at that time that there was hardly any evidence that these inspectors fully exercised their powers under this regulation in a substantial number of cases. I cannot find either that there is any sanction against any vehicle that is stopped and is found to be in a condition which does not comply with the statutory requirements of the regulation.
If your Lordships will turn to Section 17 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, you will find set out the whole procedure of spot examination under that Act, for the checking of the conditions under which A, B or C licences are operated. It is a condition of the issue of an A, B or C licence—which is a carrier's licence—that
14
a certain standard of mechanical fitness shall be maintained, and the Minister has power to appoint examiners. I will not read the section, as it is a long one, and your Lordships may read it for yourselves. But it is quite concise in its application, and it provides a sanction, because if the standard of fitness is below what is required the examiner can either turn the vehicle in question off the road until it is put right, or he can say that he will not turn it off but will give the operator one or two weeks in which to put it right, and, at the end of that time, he will re-examine it. If, on re-examination, he finds that it is still not right, then he will turn it off the road.
If I had charge of this matter I would have an adaption of those two matters—the regulation and the section—because I believe sincerely that a spot check in conditions under which the vehicle is working is a far better test of the mechanical fitness of a vehicle than that which would result from asking that the vehicle in question should, by appointment, be taken to a station in three or four weeks' time, a specific date being given, and there subjected to examination. When the vehicle goes to the testing station after such an appointment has been made, it is, naturally, in such a condition that it passes the examination and a certificate is issued. But I believe that if there were something like a Sword of Damocles—as this would be, if my suggestion were carried out—hanging over the heads of motorists and commercial vehicle owners, if they knew that at any time their vehicle could be stopped and tested in respect of the matters set out in the Construction arid Use Regulations or others that the Government might think proper to include, it would provide a far greater incentive to them to keep their vehicles on the roads in a state of proper fitness.
Now let me return to the narrow point of this Amendment. I hope the noble Lord will give the matter serious consideration, for we on this side of the House feel strongly about it. We consider that it is wrong for private industry to be concerned with the operation of the issue of certificates required by Statute. There is a paraphernalia of appeal against a refusal which is going to cause friction in the motor industry. Unless they appoint every one, the Government will have to satisfy themselves

15
as to the fitness and mechanical excellence of the equipment of thirty thousand repair shops in this country. That, I know, the Government do not want to do. I have in my speech explained my feelings in regard to the whole of this clause. I will now move the Amendment and perhaps we shall have the reply of the Government when other noble Lords have contributed expressions of their feelings upon it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 10, leave out ("whether").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
3.8 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: In speaking to this Amendment, with the permission of the Committee I should like to deal generally with the whole of Clause 1. In fact, I think that the noble Lord who has just sat down has himself done so. I should like to obtain from Her Majesty's Government an explanation of their real intentions in this enabling clause—for that is what it is. And I should like to ask some very specific questions. One or two questions have already been put by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, and the first which I should like to ask is this: is it the intention to have vehicles tested by the Government's own testing stations, by specially authorised public garages, or by a combination of both? I should like a reply to that question. With an enabling clause of this nature, obviously many queries must come to mind. For instance, I should be glad if we could be told how often the proposed test is to take place. Further, is it intended to charge for the inspection and how much is that charge likely to be? The noble Lord has already asked what will be the scope of the inspection. Will it be just a general look-round of the vehicle without dismantling, or is it to consist of an examination which will call for skilled personnel and special testing equipment? In this connection, I should like to ask whether these matters have been discussed—as they may well have been—with the motor trade, in view of the present great difficulties in obtaining skilled personnel. Last, but not least, is it intended eventually to have compulsory testing of all vehicles, irrespective of age, including goods vehicles, but, of course, excluding public service vehicles?
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I certainly do not want to weary the Committee with all the arguments against the compulsory testing of vehicles which I advanced during the Second Reading debate on this Bill, but I should like to emphasise one or two points. In the first place, it was suggested by Her Majesty's Government during the Second Reading debate that my figures regarding vehicle testing in the United States of America were not correct. The figures I gave the House were actually taken from a list prepared for me for the year 1954 by the American Automobile Association. Of course, it may well be that Her Majesty's Government have somewhat later figures. This list shows that the number of States having compulsory inspections is 15. States without compulsory inspection number 31, and States about which no reports have been received number 3.
Your Lordships may be interested to know that just before the last war a comparison was made between the accident records of six States which had periodic inspections and five comparable States which did not have them: the figures are really rather illuminating. Taking the accident figures at 100 in 1932, by the year 1933 the accident figure for the States having inspections was 111·1, whereas the States without inspections had a lower accident figure of 109·8. By 1934, the accident figure for the States with inspection was 120·3, and for the non-inspection States the figures was very slightly lower, at 120. I suggest to your Lordships that these figures indicate that it is very doubtful whether the proposed inspection of vehicles is going to improve very much, if at all, the excellent record in this country. I am very much in sympathy with the idea of improving the standard of vehicle maintenance, and, of course, the view that all vehicles should be roadworthy. I seriously doubt, however, whether the method outlined in this clause will be of any great value, and it might well be that a stepping up of the enforcement of Section 17 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, as put forward by the noble Lord who moved this Amendment, would be far better. The present plan appears to be very extravagant not only in cost but also in manpower.
EARL HOWE: I want to follow up what has been said by the two noble

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Lords who have preceded me. It is difficult to talk intelligently about this particular clause without having had some sort of statement from the Government as to what is contemplated under it. The Amendment immediately before us is to omit "whether," which I presume would have the effect of confining the operation of the clause to Government stations only. I think that is eminently desirable, because if the examination of vehicles is allowed to be undertaken by ordinary garages, there are all sort of obvious abuses which could easily creep into such a system. Supposing that there were two or three garages in a town, and that one of them was appointed an inspection station, with authorised examiners, and the rest of it, the other garages, would be its competitors. Might there not then be a danger that the garage selected would look very severely upon vehicles maintained by its competitors? Might it not be inclined to turn them down, or perhaps find unnecessary faults, or at any rate apply a very strict standard? It seems to me there would be a great danger of that happening.
Then there is the question of examinations. Who is going to carry out the examination? The only standard man who would be competent to carry out such an examination would seem to be somebody of the type of a garage foreman. But already these people are in extremely short supply all over the motor industry. The tremendous competition of other forms of industry in the motor world makes it extremely difficult for garages to get competent foremen and adequate staff. A garage would consider itself very lucky if it had one or two foremen. But remember the number of motor vehicles we are dealing with: over five million vehicles which have to be subject to examination every year. How is such an examination to be worked? Have motorists to make appointments, or will they just go along and join the queue, and hope for the best. Then think of the delay; think of the delay that one of your Lordships might be put to if you had just to go and join hopefully in the queue. You would go to one station and perhaps that would be full, and then you would go to another station. How far would you go, and what would the cost of all that be?
Talking of cost, I think it was Professor Glanville, of the Road Research Board,
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who gave a lecture on this very subject, and I believe he suggested that the fee should be 10s. a car. Do not forget the number of motor vehicles, and do not forget the sum of which their owners are already mulcted in taxation exery year. Are you really going to tell the motorists that they must pay a further 10s., plus all the cost of petrol consumed in running from one station to another in order to try to get the vehicle examined? And think of all the time it might take!
There are many other aspects in this clause—they were referred to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in his speech. A car might be examined to-day, and, for instance, any one of your Lordships' cars might pass its test; but who is to know how much of the brake linings is left? Unless the brake drums are taken off and the inside examined, you cannot possibly tell. Are the examiners going to do that? Then again, I happen to know of an extremely popular car in this country, a magnificent and very big car, which has been known to suffer from brake fade. If you took it to an ordinary station—even a new car straight out of the factory—it would of course pass its test; but, as your Lordships know better than I do, in order really to find out about brake fade, you have to run the car very fast and apply your brakes pretty hard when you are running very fast. It is only in that way that you find out about brake fade. Are the examination stations going to be equipped to deal with all that? I really should like to know. Before we get much further in the discussion of this Bill, the Government must tell us what is going to happen. We want to know whether these are going to be Government-controlled stations, or whether ordinary garages will be told to carry out the examination. If fact, we need a great deal more information, if the Government can give it to us, than has so far been put before the country.
There is one other point that I want to refer to before I sit down. It seems to me that the real bone of contention, and the real thing that the Government should aim at, if they feel it worth while to do it, is to tackle the cars on resale. Your Lordships can see plenty of these cars to-day on the outskirts of any big town with the sale price painted on the windscreens—£180, £100, £30, £10, or whatever it may be. Those cars, or many

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of them, are twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth, or twentieth-hand, very likely, and probably their maintenance has been conspicuous by its complete absence. That is the sort of car, more than the more modern variety, that usually needs examining on the roads, and I think much more attention should be paid to them and to the necessity for seeing that a car passes a test before it is resold. I do not want to weary your Lordships, and I hope you will forgive me for having said what I have; but I hope the Government will be able to tell us a little more about this proposal.
3.20 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: I should like to reinforce one or two of the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Clause 1 is a long clause, somewhat involved, and I may have missed something which may answer the question I am about to put. My eye has been caught by two points. In subsection (1) line 11 refers to examination "by other persons" and subsection (6) (a) provides that the authorisation of examiners, the imposition of conditions and the withdrawal of authorisations are to be within the discretion of the Minister. I cannot see that anything is said about the qualifications of these inspectors or, more especially, about the qualifications of the "other persons." As the clause stands, it seems clear that the Minister could authorise the employment of the boy who works at the petrol pump as an "other person."
It may be said that the Minister could be relied upon not to authorise an "other person" unless he were satisfied that that person could carry out the duties, but we all have had the experience of most unsuitable people being suddenly appointed by a Minister to carry out various duties. For instance, a road survey was undertaken the other day on which the most ridiculous persons were employed, at very good wages, to carry out a census of road traffic. No doubt the figures ultimately arrived at were erroneous, in view of the quality of many of the people employed on the job. If the Minister is to be empowered to appoint inspectors and other persons in order to carry out these tests, which are of vital importance, I think something should be laid down about the qualifications of those who are to be so appointed. It should not be left to the
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Minister to make appointments which, as we have seen in other cases, may be entirely unsuitable.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: We are debating a very big question to-day, and although we wish to get through the Committee stage of the Bill with the utmost expedition I am sure the Government can have no complaint about noble Lords raising these important points. So far as I can see, what will happen in this clause is that under subsection (4) the Minister will designate certain classes of vehicle which will come under the system of examination. But we all know the position which has arisen with regard to L-drivers. Often it takes many months for those who are all ready to take their tests to obtain appointments to undergo their driving tests, so that for many months these individuals drive round with L-plates. Under subsection (4) it will be an offence against the law to use a vehicle of the class designated for examination when the certificate has expired. There is no provision which will save a man from transgressing the law if his certificate has expired and he has submitted his vehicle for examination but owing to the system the Minister has instituted it cannot have an instant examination. He will be in a quandary. He will either have to use his vehicle and transgress the law or he will have to lay up his vehicle.
It is no answer to say that this matter can be dealt with by regulation, because this is a specific provision of the Bill and regulations cannot contradict the main provisions of the Bill but must carry out those main provisions within the boundaries of the Bill. I submit that between now and the next stage, the Government should consider this question of the delay which might occur and the position of the man who is subject to this delay. If the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is accepted and there is only one agency for carrying out these examinations, it may be that the delay will be greater. I do not know. But, in any event, what is required here is a provision which will protect the man who is willing and anxious to submit his vehicle for examination from being put into an unfair position because the Government is not instantly ready to examine the vehicle when it is submitted.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: When the Minister replies could he make

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clear the position about the production of the excise licences? There is an ugly rumour going about that no one can take his car overseas without producing this licence, and his car may not get examined until the week before he has arranged to go overseas and might be failed.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I must apologise to the noble Marquess, but I have not got his point.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: I am referring to subsection (6) (h), which calls for the production, on an application for a licence under the Vehicles (Excise) Act, 1949, of a test certificate. Does that mean that a certificate has to be applied for and granted before a car can be taken overseas, even temporarily?
LORD HAMPTON: I have only a few words to add to what has already been said, but I, too, seek enlightenment from the Government about one or two points. I would particularly refer to one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth—that is, the question of whether this test is really valid over the period for which the certificate is given. I do not know what sort of certificate is going to be issued, whether it is going to be some kind of badge to affix to the windscreen to show the police that the car has been tested; but, whatever it may be, it seems to me that a very slight accident shortly after a test has been taken and the certificate given may readily deprive a certificate of any real worth, particularly in the case of the not-so-careful motorist. A driver may charge a kerb rather heavily and slightly bend his front axle. That is liable to set up a dangerous tendency to skid under certain conditions. The not-so-careful motorist may not notice it or worry about it, but throughout the year he will have a certificate of roadworthiness for that vehicle. I am certain the Government must have this matter in mind, and I would ask them how they are going to get over it. To my mind, it is the crux of the whole scheme. A test taken on any day is not a test after it has been taken and a certificate given.
My other point is one which I think has not yet been made. If compulsory tests are decided upon by the Government, surely there will be periods of the year and periods of the week, even times during the day, when it would be most
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convenient and most popular for owners of vehicles to have them tested. It seems to me that the queues that will take place during certain periods will make it almost impossible for any test to be taken, unless the motorist is fortunate enough to be one of the early comers. I do not know whether this test is going to be done solely by appointment in advance, or whether, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, suggests, the motorist simply turns up and hopes he will be lucky.
3.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, recommends the bigger and better whip for curing some of the difficulties which are apparent in the testing of this enormous number of vehicles. Supposing it is only 4½ millions, and as little as half an hour per vehicle is allowed, that represents 280,000 man-days to get the test done, which seems to be an impossibility; and the other remarks as to the test not being valid also apply. I suggest that the Government might apply the "carrot" method (most drivers of cars put their cars in for service in the normal way in their own interests) and produce a form on which the garage could give a receipted bill for the service of the vehicle—that is to say, that they have given attention to brakes, steering and lights, which are the main objects under discussion. If that were done, not once a year but once a quarter, the charge to the motorist would probably be of the order of 10s. each time; and if, when the motorist applied the next year for his road fund licence the Government allowed him to deduct 25 per cent. of those four receipted bills—that is to say, 10s.—from his road fund licence, it seems to me that the majority of motorists would probably avail themselves of that method.
Further, as any garage testing the vehicle would be only too keen, not only to tighten the brakes but to tell the motorist that they needed relining, it seems to me that people would be encouraged to get the work done without drawing on labour that is not readily available and without the cost of setting up these testing stations and all the queueing up that would be necessary. The work could be done more or less compendiously under existing facilities; and if there were the "big stick" method to supplement it, I think it might well work.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: It may be to the advantage of your Lordships if I explain what the Government have in mind in regard to this clause. First, I would say that I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has said. We are covering a certain amount of new ground in this Bill, and we should be a poor Government if we did not. I am grateful to the noble Lord for the Amendments which he has put down, which will test in various ways what we have submitted. I should like to start with this proposition. We agreed in this House in a previous debate that a motor car is a lethal weapon. It is elementary that whenever a lethal weapon, be it a shotgun or an atomic weapon, comes anywhere near the public, the necessary safety precautions must be taken. I do not think anyone would differ from that proposition. That has been the law of the land in regard to motor cars for many years, but it has not been effectively enforced. I do not think any Minister of Transport could bring forward a Bill without in some way dealing with the matters covered by Clause 1 of the Bill.
A number of points have been raised, and I will endeavour to deal with them. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said that what is proposed is impossible and useless. If I may more precisely put together what I think the objectives are, they are these. Noble Lords may ask first whether all this trouble is worth while when one considers the number of accidents shown by the Statistical Report which are ascribable to mechanical failures; secondly, whether it is worth while when one considers the limited value, particularly in time, which these tests will, in fact, have; and, thirdly, even if that trouble can be overcome, whether the only practical way of dealing with the problem is by a safeguard—that one must either release a hoard of officials on the country or open up the possibility of malpractices by giving authority to people who should not have it. Before dealing with those questions, I would say that in the whole question of road traffic the primary method by which improvement in safety will be effected is by voluntary co-operation and not by punishment. Basically that must be our approach to this problem. Therefore, I am anxious in what I have to say to take your Lordships along with me, and also to take the country with me, because what we do
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here must be something which, by and large, people feel is fair and just.
I would now deal with the three points which I have mentioned. First of all, there are the statistics. There were 6,600 accidents in 1952 attributable to defects in vehicles. I think we must look at those statistics in this way. There are an infinite variety of circumstances which give rise to accidents. Anyone who has had experience of examining accidents will, I feel sure, agree as to the difficulty of giving a single effective cause, or, for that matter, of laying down the many contributing factors which must be taken into consideration. These statistics must be looked at in the light of those considerations. After all, statistics depend for their accuracy on the accuracy of the units or digits of which they are composed. If those digits are wrong, the inaccuracy may well be multiplied in the ultimate statistics. Therefore, I think it is fair to say that one must look carefully at the statistics. I have made inquiries, and I find that in the great majority of cases no examination of a serious character is undertaken of vehicles involved in accidents. I may add that in any serious accidents a competent organisation, rather like the Accidents Investigation Branch of the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation, would be needed to make quite certain that the right answer was reached. No parallel organisation exists, though I believe Scotland Yard have a small organisation which does something of this sort. It is for that reason that I do not think we should attach too much importance to the statistical angle.
I now turn to the question of limited value. I find that as regards the spot checks carried out, mostly on goods vehicles, in something like 20 per cent. of the cases a prohibition notice is issued. That indicates broadly that something more needs to be done. I also have some figures from the Road Research Laboratory, who were quoted by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. They are an authoritative organisation and I believe are recognised both in this country and abroad. This is their opinion, and the only thing I can say is that it is an objective opinion of some value. They say in regard to lights, for instance, that about one in seven vehicles met is a dazzler, and one-tenth of them have lost 90 per cent. of their output when new—that is, the output of

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light from their lights. I have another quotation which is also a matter of opinion. They say that American experience indicates that compulsory testing and other measures which accompany it have resulted in an appreciable reduction in accidents. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, for not having the statistics; I am giving only the opinion which has been expressed by that organisation. A further opinion of theirs is that statistic show that older cars which are known to have deteriorated as regards brakes, lights and steering, have more accidents per vehicle than newer cars. That seems to indicate that there is, at least, some ground for improvement in that direction.
EARL JOWITT: Can the noble Earl indicate where these statistics come from?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This information is supplied by the Road Research Laboratory. They give this as their opinion. I have not the statistics on which they base their opinion, but I will endeavour to get further information about them. Defects do occur, of course, without accidents taking place. I have myself twice been in a car when the steering has failed completely, but fortunately on neither occasion did damage result to anyone. It may be argued, and has been argued, that if this test is carried out it will be of only limited value in time—that the test is done to-day and defects might appear to-morrow. With regard to the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, he said that if he had a licence or test on January 2, 1955, he would get an Excise licence on January 1, 1956; but, of course, he ought to have another test on January 2, 1956, if he wishes—as I am sure he does—to keep within the law. It is, of course, strictly true that the licence is only of limited value in time.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The certificate.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I beg the noble Lord's pardon—certificate. I go further and say that it is important that it should not be regarded as a continuing guarantee, because, of course, it is not in any sense of the word. All the certificate says is that, on one day of the year, the car is mechanically up to the minimum standard which the Minister of Transport requires, and the minimum standard which the Minister requires every day of
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the year. All we are asking—and it really is extremely elementary—is that you should show that your car is of that minimum standard on one single day of the year. That will cost, I think, something in the order of 10s. or two gallons of petrol, which I do not think is a large sum of money.
The point which the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, made I imagine is really this: that if it is a routine examination, most garages will "throw in" the test with it, if necessary. As a matter of fact, many drivers will be quite glad to have this minimum system of testing. Circumstances vary, of course. Some allow their cars to deteriorate without noticing it and other people are not mechanically minded, and are not aware that their brakes or lights have deteriorated. As I have emphasised, lighting is something we do not always notice.
Now may I turn to the question of method. Many noble Lords have remarked on the difficulty of knowing how to get this examination done, even assuming it is desirable. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, suggested a considerable extension of the present system of spot checking, That, of course, would be possible, but to make it effective a considerable increase would be required in the number of officials concerned—probably at least ten times the number, though I make a very tentative guess. Moreover, these people would require premises of some sort, because we intend not only that checking—that is to say, spot checking—should be more thorough than at present but also that it should be carried out more thoroughly than the sort of spot checking which goes on on the road at the present time. I am also not convinced that an extension of spot checking, by which people who are parked, or people driving on the road can be stopped by the police, and have their cars examined, would be very welcome. I think people would prefer to have examinations carried out in their own time. We do not believe that a vast expansion of officials is practicable or desirable.
We do not intend in any way to rush this procedure, which will have to go slowly at all times, in order to cope with the numbers to be examined. A number of noble Lords have emphasised that to queue or wait is most undesirable, and

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I absolutely agree with them. That means, of course, that the introduction of testing, if we do bring it in, must be made by easy stages. As I have already suggested, the older cars should come first. What the Minister proposes to do is this: All garages who could satisfy him that the competence of their staff and their equipment are of a requisite quality would be authorised to test on his behalf and to grant certificates. The noble Lord, Lord Winster, raised the question of qualifications. In the motor trade (I think I am correct in saying this) there are no laid-down qualifications, broadly speaking, and that would be a matter which, to a large extent, certifying officers or examining boards from the Ministry of Transport would have to judge. But, after all, what they have to do is a comparatively simple matter. In view of the emphasis placed on the absence of skilled personnel, there is no other possible way in which tests of this character can be carried out.
It has been suggested that garage proprietors might be placed in an invidious position with regard to their own customers' cars and others, and that they might either demand excessive repairs or perhaps not carry out proper repairs. Garage proprietors are in the habit of trying to persuade their clients to buy new motor cars, and it may be that they are in the habit of persuading their clients to do repairs which are not entirely necessary. But there is nothing new in that, and I do not think this sort of procedure will give any greater opportunity to them to do that sort of thing. What I do think is important—and I wish to emphasise this in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye—is that this scheme cannot proceed until there is a sufficient supply of authorised organisations to do the work. That is fundamental to the scheme being able to function at all. We do not propose that the examination should be very elaborate. Our initial proposals are that it should cover no more than brakes, lights and steering. But we hope to learn from the experience gained from the pilot station as to what is really necessary.
We do not think that the cost of equipment will be very high. We see no reason why any competent garage with the necessary equipment should not be able to carry out testing; and the fact that a great
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many do it will make it not only easier for the public but, I think, fairer to all concerned. There may be some suggestion that garages would grant certificates too lightly. This might well be the case, but the Minister of Transport would have to watch this closely, and if necessary he would take away the authorisation which he has given to these garages. I suggest that, on the whole, garages would be very jealous to see that they were worthy of the trust which was given to them. If their licences were removed, it would be a considerable reflection on them, which would certainly become known to other garages and their clients. I think it has some sort of similarity to A.A. or R.A.C. approvals which are given to some garages.
What we are asking is a very simple matter. It is that the minimum essential safety precautions of a car should be manifestly maintained on one day of the year. I think that is a small step, and one which at the present time is necessary. Our experience from the United States is that, on the whole, such a provision has not proved difficult and has had some effect. I suggest that the Minister of Transport would have to take a step of this sort in bringing forward a Road Transport Bill, and I believe this is the only effective day in which this can be done.
EARL HOWE: Before the noble Earl sits down, could he say anything with regard to the cost to the individual examinee and of the whole scheme to the country, as contemplated?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I think the figure the noble Lord himself gave is correct. We think it would be of the order of magnitude of about 10s. I do not want to be tied too closely to that, because we have not a great deal of experience about it.
EARL HOWE: And to the country?
3.50 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: I welcome the attitude which the noble Earl has adopted. He has made it quite plain that there is no Party question in this matter, and I say for my part that I hold myself perfectly free to vote against some of the Amendments which my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth has put down. But I ask myself, having listened to the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, this simple question:

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What on earth is the good of this scheme? I am not a driver, but I have travelled by car a good deal, and I have a healthy regard for my own safety. The principle which I adopt now, and propose to continue, if I can, is to get a new car every year by paying a comparatively small sum, in order that I may have the satisfaction of presuming that the car is all right. By paying an extra £200 a year I find that I can carry on on those lines. That is a good system. If a driver knows absolutely nothing about cars, it is a good thing for him to keep out of the hands of garage people, not all of whom are scrupulously honest, so far as I can gather. It is absolutely foolish to think that, even in my case in the course of one year, my car is necessarily going to be all right during the whole of that year. One often finds that brakes get out of order, or steering needs looking after; and when I find that, even in a new car. I send it to a garage to ask for advice. But what is the good—the noble Earl has not told us; he said it is a very small thing to ask—of having a system by which a driver, on one particular day of the year, has the satisfaction, on paying 10s., of knowing that his car is in good order? It does not in the least follow that the car is in good order a week, a month or six months afterwards.
I cannot, for the life of me, see the value of it. I could see some value in it if it was going to reduce accidents on the road; then I should be in favour of it—it would be vital—but will it? It seems to me that, at considerable cost and delay, you are setting up an absolutely illusory protection. So far as this particular Amendment is concerned, if we are to have this inspection at all, I would much rather have it by garages approved by the Minister rather than by any old garage, almost anywhere, because it seems to me that it may tend to lead to all sorts of undesirable practices. I believe that it has led to undesirable practices in America, and it may easily do so here. I beg the Minister to reconsider this scheme. If he wanted to satisfy his critics by introducing it, well he has done so and that is all right.
I am told that in America a testing station dealing with 40,000 vehicles per annum needs a staff of ten. To have 5 million vehicles tested once per annum would require a staff of 1,250. How you
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are going to get 1,250 competent people at the present time to deal with this I do not know. I thought the Minister did not make his case any easier by saying that it was not going to be a very elaborate test. To my mind it makes it all the more illusory because you have somehow or other to get 1,250 people. How are you going to do it? I should very much rather not have a protection which will involve a considerable expense. The test seems to me to establish absolutely nothing, except that which the noble Earl claimed for it—namely, it would prove that on one particular day in one particular year the car was in good condition. I ask, what is the good of that?
I beg the Minister to think again about this matter. There is no question of Party involved. If the Government withdraw this scheme, they will lose nothing in prestige. I feel tolerably certain that even amongst their own supporters there are a large number who would wish the Government not to press the scheme, because it is manifestly no good. Let the Government drop this, I humbly suggest, and get on to other and more serious matters. Let them take it back and say: "We will consider it again," or words to that effect. I can assure the noble Earl that if they do, neither he nor the Government will lose anything in prestige. It so happens that they have had foisted upon them a scheme which is not at all worth while and which would cause a good deal of trouble and give the unfortunate pedestrian, who is vitally concerned, absolutely no security at all.
LORD HAMPTON: I should like to ask the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, on one point with regard to the employment of certain selected garages. I quote my own case because I employ, in having my car regularly serviced, a very big and well-equipped garage. I put it to the managing director the other day and said to him: "Suppose you have an offer from the Government to act as a testing station?" He said: "I could not possibly touch it, for two reasons," and he gave them. "First," he said, "we are far too busy. Over there is a whole row of cars under repair. We are far too busy to undertake any more work." The second reason was: "We should anyhow be accused of abusing our position if we did so and

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would probably lose clients in consequence." I should like to know whether those considerations have entered the Government's head.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I should like to make my point clearer. What I suggested was not that a test should be thrown in with the service but that a receipted bill that the service had been carried out should render a test unnecessary. Sometimes a service at a garage is carried out monthly; sometimes it is four times a year. I suggest that a receipted bill showing that the work had been carried out on a particular car should render the test unnecessary—that is the point I tried to make—and that possibly part of that cost should be remitted when the driver applied for his Road Fund licence the next year.
EARL HOWE: I agree with a great deal of what the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, has just said. I do not know whether the Government are prepared to consider it, but I do ask the noble Earl, what is a test, not an elaborate test, on one day in a year really going to do? What is it going to tell us? Honestly, I cannot see. The Government are going to make the whole of the motor world, over 5 million to-day, and probably 6 million in a year or two's time, pay ten shillings a year each to have their cars tested (and it is not a very elaborate test) for brakes, lights and steering. What will that test tell us? I know a little about the spot checks that have been carried out on lights, because I have had correspondence with the Chief Constable of Oxfordshire about it. He carried out some spot checks at lay-bys on the Oxford Road and they were found to be of great value to the motorists. There were a number who had their lights wrongly adjusted. I agree with that idea; but I cannot understand what the Government feel they will get out of making everybody pay ten shillings a year to have a not very elaborate test.
May I ask the noble Earl one other question? He told me about the cost per individual. What about the net cost on the country? What is going to be the cost to the country of setting up this scheme, with all its authorised examiners, who, I suppose, will get a fee—or, at least, the garages will? I feel that the Government ought to be able to tell us
32
what it will cost the country, as well as what it will cost the wretched individual. I do ask the noble Earl to have these points in mind. If only he could consider them and perhaps make a further statement on the Report stage of the Bill, I am certain that many noble Lords would be grateful to him.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I do not know whether the noble Earl would like to address your Lordships now.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I should like to say one word. I am grateful for the frank statements which noble Lords have made about this scheme. As your Lordships know, the situation is pretty serious. If the Government make any suggestions to improve the safety of the roads, what are they met with?—blank opposition.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Oh no!
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Come, come!.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: With great respect, the noble Lord said that it was completely illusory to say that a car was, on one day of the year, of the minimum standard required by the Ministry of Transport. I do not think that is so, because, at the present time, the car may never come up to the minimum standards required. That is the point. On one day of the year, under this proposal, the condition of the car is brought up to standard. That is at least a step forward —I think that is a fair way of putting it. One might ask oneself: what is the use of a medical test? After all, a man takes a medical test, and he may be ill the next day. This examination is really a parallel to the medical test. The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, said that the garages would not touch the scheme. If that were the case, then we should have to proceed by other methods; but I am surprised to hear that might be the case. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked what the cost would be. It is our intention that the fee paid by the motorist should cover the whole cost of the inspection. It should not be more than 10s.; we hope that it will be less.
I quoted statistics which indicated that there was evidence that a good deal of testing had to be done, and this is the

33
only effective way in which a substantial number of cars can be covered. There is no question at all at the present time of bringing in 5 million cars; it is intended to bring into the scheme at its commencement only a proportion of the total number of cars which can effectively be examined by the examiners. I shall be glad to arrange for a full discussion of the matter between now and the Report stage, if the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, so desires. I think that we have got to make some progress in this direction, and I feel that it would make some difference if we could ensure that cars at a minimum standard of maintenance were brought a little higher up. If the noble Lord will agree, I shall be glad to arrange discussions.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I say that I think the noble Earl has done rather less than justice to the Opposition. While we say that we do not think that this is the right way, we have put concrete suggestions as to which is the right way. The noble Earl has underlined it. He said that the spot check which is operating at the present time discloses a figure of 20 per cent. sub-standard vehicles. He has made a suggestion with regard to one day of the whole year. As has been pointed out, all that will do is to make sure that every vehicle on the road is up to a minimum standard on one day of the year. My whole point on this narrow issue is that the certificate to be issued has to be above commercial considerations. I cannot see why any private enterprise garage proprietor should be in the invidious position of having to tell his own customers that he will not issue a certificate; that is for the Government inspector to do. Unless the noble Earl gives me an assurance that, on any reconsideration of this matter, he will delete repair shops, or others than official inspectors,
I must ask your Lordships to divide.
LORD WINSTER: If I may say one brief word, speaking as a magistrate with experience of many years of the usual stream of motoring offences which come before the bench, I can at this moment recollect only one instance in which the mechanical disrepair of a motor vehicle was involved in the case—only one over a very long period of years. I must say that my own feeling is that this matter can be dealt with by penalties. I have often been surprised in some cases, not before the bench on which I sit, at the insufficiency of the penalties which are passed. I feel that if severe penalties were inflicted where mechanical disrepair was shown to have been responsible for an accident, and if those penalties included suspension for a period of the licence to drive, we should deal quite effectively with this question of vehicles in a bad state of repair being on the road.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has asked me whether I am prepared to give an undertaking in this matter. I am afraid I cannot give such an undertaking because, at the present juncture, I cannot see how the work which we all agree should be done, could be done in the way he suggests, without considerable expense and interference with the public. The method suggested in the Bill is an effective and simple way in which the work can be done, and I am sorry that it does not commend itself to the noble Lord. If he wishes to divide, he must, of course, do so. I have offered him discussions, and he does not want them.
On Question, Whether the Amendment be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided:—
Contents, 45; Not-Contents, 33.

CONTENTS

Camden, M.

Stansgate, V.

Kenswood, L.

Cholmondeley, M.

Thurso, V.

Killearn, L.

Willingdon, M.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, L.

Albemarle, E.

Belstead, L.

Macpherson of Drumochter, L.

Howe, E.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Mathers, L.

Jowitt, E.

Calverley, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Listowel, E.

Chorley, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Monkswell, L.

Henderson, L.

Morrison, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Hindlip, L.

Moyne, L.

Esher, V.

Hurcomb, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Mersey, V.

Inman, L.

Rea, L.

Sempill, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Waleran, L.

Silkin, L.

Strang, L.

Winster, L.

Somers, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Wise, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Selkirk, E.

Chesham, L.

Shaftesbury, E.

Coleraine, L.

Salisbury, M. (L. President.)

Digby, L.

Exeter, M.

Leathers, V.

Dovercourt, L.

Reading, M.

Monck, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Swinton, V.

Freyberg, L.

Bessborough, E.

Woolton, V.

Hawke, L.

De La Warr, E.

Leconfield, L.

Dundee, E.

Balfour of Burleigh, L.

Mancroft, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Milverton, L.

Munster, E.

Brassey of Apethorpe, L.

Remnant, L.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Carrington, L.

Sandford, L.

Rothes, E.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
4.12 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Do I understand from the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that he now accepts the next Amendment? I said that Amendment No. 2 was really the heart of the matter, and that is the Amendment upon which the argument has taken place. Technically, I could not move Amendment No. 2 because Amendment No. 1 was first on the list. May I take it that the noble Earl now accepts Amendment No. 2 without a Division? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 11, leave out ("or by other persons (hereinafter referred to as 'authorised examiners') authorised by him,").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I accept that Amendment without a Division and I shall have to secure further instructions with regard to Clause 1. I am wondering how the noble Lord would like to proceed.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 19, leave out ("or examiner").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD BURDEN LORD BURDEN moved, in subsection (4), after "road" to insert "or other place." The noble Lord said: Following that Division, I was waiting to see whether the noble Earl in charge of the Bill had anything to say before this Amendment was moved, but perhaps it would be better if I moved the Amendment
36
and we shall then see whether the Minister has anything to say. This Amendment is designed for a more modest system of examination than that envisaged in Clause 1. As Clause 1 has been objected to from all quarters, the Minister has to consider the position arising as the result; but Regulations have been made under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, which empower a police constable or an examiner of the Ministry of Transport to test and inspect, either on the road or on any premises where a vehicle is, any brakes, silencers or steering gear fitted to a motor vehicle or trailer. That is provided for in the Construction and Use Regulations, 1952. I suggest that those arrangements could usefully be extended to enable the police or other duly authorised people to require that any vehicle, whether on the road or exposed for sale, should be submitted for tests as to roadworthiness.
There is a further point, although what one is now saying is conditioned by what the Minister may do in connection with Clause 1. Subsection (2) of Clause 1 provides for right of appeal to the Minister against a decision that any vehicle is defective, and subsection (6) of this clause enables the Minister to make regulations as to appeal. It is considered that there ought to be adequate facilities for a speedy right of appeal so that a vehicle is not unnecessarily kept off the road with the possibility of resultant hardship. Perhaps the Minister will give us an assurance to that effect. I ought to say, in conclusion, that these and subsequent Amendments on the Order Paper in the name of my noble friend, Lord Milner of Leeds, and myself are submitted on behalf of the Association of Municipal Corporations who naturally

37
have given close attention to the provisions of this Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 10, after ("road") insert ("or other place").—(Lord Burden.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am not very clear about the noble Lord's purpose. The Amendment says that a person who uses a car off the road should require a test certificate. I do not see the force of that argument. I thought the noble Lord had in mind equipment of the kind used in gravel pits, quarries and similar places. I should have thought that matter might better be dealt with under a Mines and Quarries Bill, or possibly under a Factories Bill. We do not intend this to be an inspection system but only a road safety measure.
LORD BURDEN: I had in mind that there might be a good deal of legal discussion as to what is meant by the words "on the road." If the words "off the road" are put in, that would, of course, cover any conceivable instance where the vehicle was not actually at work on the road.
LORD WALERAN: I wonder whether I am right in my understanding of this Amendment? The noble Lord who has moved it has used the words "on the road." If any kind of equipment is used on the road under its own power it has to have a licence and number plates. Therefore, it would come under this Bill, and I do not see why the noble Lord says "if it goes on the road." If it is used on the road it will have to be taxed, and it will necessarily come under the Bill. That being so, I do not think the Amendment is necessary.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: May I ask the noble Lord for clarification on one point? There are many vehicles which never go on the roads. There are vehicles which are used on the farm—some old Austin 7, it may be, or some old van which is used as a general "hackabout." It is not licensed, and it does not carry any number plates. Any noble Lord who goes about on agricultural property knows the kind of vehicle I mean. If an accident happens with such a vehicle the employee concerned is covered under the ordinary provisions of industrial insurance. But if this Amendment were adopted, those vehicles, because they would be used on a road "or
38
other place" would be subject to the official examination. That I am sure is not the intention of the noble Lord, for it would create an absurd position.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Perhaps my noble friend Lord Burden will allow me to help him. We are dealing in this Bill with all types of vehicles which need an excise licence. Farm tractors and any other vehicles which never go on the highway do not require an excise licence. I think the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, is right in what he says. If you put in the words "or other place," it would be interpreted that a particular piece of farm machinery that operated on that road "or other place" would need an excise licence and would come under the licensing law. I would advise my noble friend that what he seeks to achieve is already covered. This Amendment would rather complicate matters and tend to cause hardship in the case of vehicles which are specifically exempted from requiring excise licences. I will not mention the categories concerned.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK:I think the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is right, and I should be glad if the noble Lord, Lord Burden, would withdraw his Amendment. I do not think the Amendment he is proposing would be within the scope or intentions of the Bill.
LORD BURDEN: In view of what the Minister and other noble Lords have said, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.24 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved, in subsection (4), after proviso (a) to insert:
"(b) to vehicles of such other classes or descriptions as may be prescribed."
The noble Earl said: This is really not much more than a drafting Amendment. As the Bill is drawn, the Minister may by regulations prescribe vehicles to which this clause will apply, but there is some doubt as to whether he can exclude vehicles at a later date by regulation. It is possible that vehicles may be brought in as a class and that it may be desirable subsequently to take them out. An obvious example is that of taxicabs. At the present time the hackney carriages of London have a very high standard of testing by the Metropolitan Police, and

39
there is no intention to bring them under the Bill at all. Outside London, in some areas there is a high standard for taxicabs but in other areas there is not. In some areas there is no test, and for such areas taxicabs might be brought in, and if, subsequently, a test were imposed, the area would be excluded. It is to meet circumstances of that kind that this Amendment is put forward. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 20, at end insert the said paragraph.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I support the noble Earl's Amendment, and I hope he will not think I am too pernickety if I mention this matter. I have an Amendment later on almost the same lines, and I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he will include in his Amendment the word "age," so that the paragraph would relate to vehicles of: "such other classes or age…" He may find in time that he will have to exempt cars of one or two years of age to bring the whole scheme within manageable proportions. I am trying to help him. He will never inspect 6 million motor vehicles a year, and it may at some time be found advisable to say that only motor cars of, let us say, five years or four years of age and over shall be concerned. With the definition as it is now, it would not include age. If the noble Earl will include the word "age." I shall be quite willing not to move my Amendment when it is reached.
LORD GODDARD: May I ask the noble Earl whether, in moving this Amendment, he has considered a difficulty that has arisen in other respects under the Road Traffic Act, with regard to the use of the words: "other classes or descriptions"? I hope that at some time while the Bill is in Committee some clause will be moved which clears up a doubt that has arisen about it. The position as disclosed by a case which was before the High Court not long ago is this. The Road Traffic Act divides motor vehicles into classes. It does not divide them into descriptions, or give any hint as to what is meant by descriptions. There are no sub-classes; there are
40
certain classes. The noble Earl mentioned taxicabs. Taxicabs do not appear as a class in the Act, nor is there a description. The difficulty which arose the other day was this. There is a provision in the Act that magistrates, when disqualifying a man from holding a licence, can limit the disqualification. What is intended is that a man may, perhaps, be disqualified from driving a lorry but shall be left at liberty to drive a private motor car, or vice versa, or a motor cycle. But magistrates in a case the other day disqualified a man from driving a 5 cwt. van, or what was generally known as a 5 cwt. van. And, of course, that is not a class. It may be said to be a description, but one does not know what a description is, and so magistrates are enabled to give their own descriptions.
The Minister in various regulations dealt with different descriptions, but we have not yet been able to find how he has done that or what authority there is, and the court was strongly inclined to hold that the words "class or description" were tautologous. If we had done that, I think we should, by inference, have held that a great number of regulations that had been passed were ultra vires, and of course we were very careful not to do that. But it raises great difficulty in trying to administer a great many of the sections, because though the Act divides motor vehicles into classes, when one comes to "classes or descriptions" one finds that no one knows what "descriptions" are.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice for drawing attention to this matter. If I do not reply to him now, I should like to assure him that what he said will be very carefully examined. Motor cars do change in type and appearance, and that is one of the matters which make the description of a vehicle particularly difficult. As far as we are concerned, all we want to put in is that the Minister may divide cars into any classes or divisions which appear to him to be appropriate. I am informed that my Amendment is wider than that of Lord Lucas of Chilworth, but I will certainly have it looked at in order to be certain that it does include age.
4.30 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON LORD WOLVERTON moved, in subsection (4), after proviso (a), to insert:
"(b) to goods vehicles licensed for the carriage of goods under the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933,".
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name and that of my noble friends Lord Stonehaven and Lord Hampton. I think your Lordships will agree that this is an important Amendment. It seeks to exclude goods vehicles from this first class of inspection, for the simple reason that we feel that goods vehicles are now amply covered under the 1933 Act. Sections 17 and 18 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, relate to obligations to maintain goods vehicles in serviceable condition. Section 18 provides that examiners shall have the powers of police constables. In the proviso to subsection (4) of this Bill, public service vehicles, tramway cars and trolley-buses are excluded from the examination because they are already liable to inspection: at any time a Ministry of Transport inspector can ask for a spot check on goods vehicles; and these inspectors do so. We feel that if the inspectors have those powers, and use them, it is unnecessary to rule that, in a voluntary capacity first, and, it may be, in a compulsory capacity afterwards, these goods vehicles should have an inspection by an authorised garage or, as the Amendment now stands, by an authorised examiner to be appointed by the Minister, because we think these vehicles are amply covered under the 1933 Act. I hope that I have made the point clear. With those few words, I move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 20, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Wolverton.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: If I may answer quite shortly, we are not satisfied that the present system of inspecting goods vehicles is adequate. It is not to be compared with the standards which are set for public service vehicles, which are very much higher. We think that if inspection is to be carried out it should include goods vehicles. I can tell the noble Lord that only a small fraction of the total number of goods vehicles are to-day inspected at all, and we think that the number which requires inspection is very much higher. I must therefore ask
42
the noble Lord not to press this Amendment. I think the section to which he refers is not by any means as fully carried out as he may think or, indeed, as we all may wish.
LORD HAMPTON: I should like to add a word upon this, and upon my own Amendment, No. 9. I realise that it is opening the door rather wide, but as your Lordships well know, many large organisations and great industrial firms have extremely well-equipped garages, with all the proper appliances for repair and maintenance. If this Amendment were accepted and these organisations could seek exemption from compulsory testing, it would have two advantages. One would be that it would relieve the organisations and firms of what is, to my mind, a quite unnecessary extra test. Secondly, it would greatly relieve congestion, especially in large factory areas. It is opening the door rather wide, I admit, and it might be difficult to draw the line; but surely that could be done by firms or organisations which have such amenities applying to be exempted and being so exempted if, after inspection, they were found worthy of it.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I hope the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, will reconsider this matter, because I should like to support the noble Lord in his arguments. This is where we come up against a rather anomalous position. All goods-carrying vehicles are subject to a carriers' licence, A, B, or C, and it is a condition of the grant of such licences that the vehicle should be maintained at a certain standard of fitness. It is a ground for the revocation of an A, B, or C licence that the vehicle is proved not to be in that state of fitness. This Bill as it stands today says that not only shall all the goods-carrying vehicles have a test, as the noble Lord, Lord Wolverton, has stated, for the retention of their carriers' licences, A, B, or C, and to fulfil the conditions of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, but that they shall also have to undergo another test for an excise licence. What will be the position? Are we going to subject all these commercial vehicles to two tests?
The spot test is the one that is carried out to-day, and the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, has already told us that he had found in his experience, or his Ministry

43
had told him, that 20 per cent. of vehicles were found to require some attention. Under Section 17 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, the vehicles to which the noble Lord, Lord Wolverton, has referred, are subject to a test which, in my view, is the ideal one, because the sanction is there immediately: the inspector can turn the vehicle off the road. He cannot withdraw its excise licence, but he can withdraw the carrier's licence which, for a commercial vehicle, is just as effective. Or he can say to the owner, "This is not so serious that you must be turned off the road; I will give you two weeks in which to put the vehicle right. If it is not put right in that time I shall then turn you off the road." It is for the enforcement of that provision that I am pleading in my Amendment which has received the approbation of your Lordships. It is the simplest and the cheapest way, and does not require a lot of elaborate buildings and equipment. The inspector can direct the vehicle anywhere to have a further and more extensive examination if his first diagnosis convinces him that it is a bad case.
Moreover, these inspectors know the bad owners. They do not have to inspect these vehicles on one day out of 365 to make sure they are right. They can inspect them once a month if they know the bad owners, and they have a sanction straight away. That is a far better system, and I hope that the noble Earl will give this matter another thought, because it is worthy of very serious consideration by the Government. I believe that here lies the answer to their dilemma. I agree that it is necessary that the vehicles should be up to scratch; I yield to nobody in that regard, and I believe that this is the best way of seeing to it. But having subjected them to one test, you should not subject them to another. The withdrawal of their A, B, or C licence means that they are out of business—they cannot trade, they cannot carry goods; and it is, therefore, just as effective as withdrawing the excise licence. I hope this will be made an exception. You cannot say to them one day, "You are going to have your test for your A, B or C licence, and then you will have to go into a pilot station and have a test from a different examiner, with different views and ideas, who is not at all influenced by his colleague who has given the A, B, or C test." Surely
44
you cannot make them have two tests. There must be some more thinking, and I should like the noble Earl to think about this point again, so that we can return to it at another stage of the Bill.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I was most disappointed in the noble Earl's reply. I understood him to say that a large number of these vehicles were not tested at all. If you have a statutory requirement for one test and that is not carried out, how is it going to help you if you merely have a statutory requirement for two tests? I must say that I did not think the reply was at all strong.
LORD HAMPTON: Before the noble Earl replies, I should like to know whether he can inform me where the Services come in here. The Royal Army Service Corps and the Tank Corps have a large number of vehicles. Do they come under the exemption for public service vehicles?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Yes. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is not putting the case fairly when he says there are two tests. There are no tests for A, B and C licences, as the noble Lord knows quite well. I am correct in saying that all cars are subject to a check from time to time. Actually, it is carried out only in regard to goods vehicles. I would say to the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, that the point about this Bill is that we are not satisfied that these mechanical checks are adequately carried out. We think that in the interests of safety, this checking should be carried further. I will certainly look at this again, but the noble Lord should be quite clear that it is contrary to the principle of the Bill that any important class of vehicle should be left out, though we may have to let out all vehicles that are under a certain age. I should be grateful if the noble Lord would withdraw this Amendment.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before the noble Lord withdraws his Amendment, I must say that I am correct in what I have said. I will read Section 17 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933. which is entitled "Enforcement of obligation to maintain goods vehicles in serviceable condition."
"(1) For the purpose of securing in the case of goods vehicles their maintenance in a fit and serviceable condition and the observance

45
of the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and of this Part of this Act, the Minister shall appoint such officers (in this Part of this Act referred to as "examiners") as he considers necessary.
"(2) An examiner shall at any time, on production if so required of his authority, be entitled to enter and inspect any goods vehicle, and for that purpose to detain the vehicle during such time as is required for the inspection …"
I will not bore your Lordships by reading on, because there is a page and a half of this section; but I have gone far enough to show that it is a condition of the issue of an A, B or C licence that the vehicle shall be kept in a serviceable condition and that the licence can be withdrawn if the examiners find it is not kept in that condition.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: But that is not a test, is it?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Have we come to that stage! How can an examiner find whether the brakes or the steering are all right without testing them? I am not a barrister—the noble Earl is—but that seems common sense to me. An examiner has to be able to test the brakes before he can say whether or not they are efficient. This Bill really does subject all these people to two tests.
LORD WOLVERTON: I must say that I am disappointed. I did not read out the whole section, only the heading; but I read it carefully before coming to the House, and it seems to me that public goods vehicles are already covered. If the noble Earl will give me an undertaking that he will look at the point again before the next stage, I am prepared to withdraw this Amendment now, but I may return to it if not satisfied, because it is going to be an enormous job even to have only the private vehicles examined at the present time. I think possibly something should be done on those lines in the experimental stage, but to clutter up this Bill with something that is already provided for under the Road and Rail Traffic Act does not seem to be necessary. The Bill already excludes public passenger vehicles, such as trams and trolley-buses, which are dealt with under that Act. I am disappointed, but I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I will look at this again, but I cannot hold out any
46
hope that these vehicles will be left out. We consider that the present standards of maintenance are inadequate.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD WOLVERTON LORD WOLVERTON moved, in subsection (4), after proviso (a) to insert:
"(b) to a vehicle adapted to carry less than eight passengers and licensed as a hackney carriage by a local authority."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment deals with a slightly different point. It deals with licensed hackney carriages with less than eight seats which are licensed by local authorities. It is the duty of local authorities to see that these hackney carriages are in a proper condition before they are licensed. Therefore, I do not think there should be an obligation on the owners, first of all on a voluntary basis and later on a compulsory basis, to have these inspected, as inspection has already been carried out. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 20, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Wolverton.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The standard set by local authorities, if one is set at all, varies a great deal. Where the standard is good, we intend to exclude that local authority; where it is not good, we shall not do so. I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment, which covers all hackney carriages.
LORD WOLVERTON: Where the standard of the local authority is not high, can it be brought up to standard?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That is a matter for the local authorities.
LORD WOLVERTON: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment, but I will look into the matter again.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in subsection (4), after proviso (a) to insert:
"(b) to a hackney carriage licensed by the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolitan Police District under the provisions of the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act, 1869,"
The noble Lord said: I understand that this Amendment has been accepted.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: No.
EARL HOWE: In that case, I must put the case for hackney carriages. As I think everybody knows, a hackney

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carriage has to come up once a year for examination. The examining staff at the stations in the Metropolitan Police Area consist of officers selected for the work on account of their knowledge of engineering and their practical workshop experience. Every vehicle must be completely overhauled and must be presented for inspection and tested at a passing station, where it is subjected to road tests and a careful examination. In addition, all hackney carriages in London are subject to inspections, without notice, on the owner's premises not fewer than four times a year, and are also subject to inspections on cab ranks and stations. The Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police is empowered to suspend a licence, if it is found that the conditions of fitness are not complied with. Under those conditions, what is the good of making the hackney carriage subject to any further examinations? It has to pass a test four times a year, as well as spot tests. Surely the Minister is able to accept this. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 20, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Earl Howe.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The position is that the Metropolitan Police Area will be excluded by regulation. It is not put into the Bill because it was felt that it would be invidious to do that without dealing with other authorities who may have an equally high standard. I assure the noble Earl that it is intended that the London taxicab will not be subject to test under this Bill.
EARL HOWE: I thank the noble Earl very much for his answer and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This Amendment is consequential on the Government's acceptance of Amendment No. 2. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 24, leave out ("or to be employed by, an authorised examiner") and insert ("an inspector").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This Amendment is also consequential on the Amendment accepted by the Government. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 32, leave out paragraph (a).—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment is really drafting. All it says is that the vehicle should be tested in the state in which it is normally used; that is to say, if it has a trailer, or anything of that sort then the trailer should be attached. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 35 after ("the") insert ("conditions under which").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 11, leave out ("authorised examiners") and insert ("inspectors").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This, too, is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 16, leave out ("authorised examiners") and insert ("inspectors"). (Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
4.52 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved to leave out subsection (9). The noble Lord said: The deletion of subsection (9) of Clause 1 should really be considered on Amendment No. 17. What I seek to do is to withdraw from this clause the Negative Resolution procedure and to put in its place a positive one. The history of legislation connected with our roads it one of reference and regulation. From 1930 up to now we have had four Road Traffic Acts, a Road and Rail Traffic Act, numerous Road Acts and Lighting Acts and numerous regulations, until now, if you want to get at what is the Statute controlling our road traffic, you have to wade through Act after Act and it becomes confusion worse confounded. Many of the Statutes controlling road traffic at the present time emanate from the 1930 Act, which was passed before the motor vehicle as we know it to-day was born. In my view, the provisions of this clause are so important and far-reaching that they should not

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be allowed to slip through under the Negative Resolution procedure but should require an Affirmative Resolution of Parliament, so that they can be debated.
What Clause 1 seeks to do is to erect pilot stations, and your Lordships have now decided that these stations—I estimate that something in the region of 15,000 will be needed—must be Government-owned and Government-operated. I object to a clause that would give the Minister power to go ahead with that sort of thing and spend millions of pounds without having to come to Parliament to justify his action. Who is going to be the judge as to whether this experiment is a success or a failure? With respect, Ministers come and Ministers go; and when the assessment of the pilot station has to be made, it may not be the broadminded Minister of Transport we have to-day who has to do it. As the noble Earl has admitted, this is in a number of respects an enabling Bill, and it is an enabling Bill in the widest possible sense.
The next thing this clause does is to give the Minister power, by regulations subject to a Negative Resolution, to say that nobody can get an excise licence for his motor car or commercial vehicle unless he has a fitness test and a fitness certificate. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, who pointed out that this may put the owner out of business for three months, because at the present time in a number of districts it takes two or three months to get a date to have a driving test, and it sometimes takes three or four weeks to get an excise licence. The local authorities say that they cannot cope with the work. Are we going to say that this shall be done on a Negative Resolution, by regulations which may go through in the Recess, and that Parliament need never know about it? Later in this Committee stage I will give your Lordships an example of one that slipped through in a very quiet manner.
I think these are important matters on which the Minister should come to Parliament and seek an Affirmative Resolution from both Houses. The most peculiar thing is that the Highway Code,which has no legal enforcement, requires an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament before it can be printed. Here we are giving the Minister great powers, and they can go through on the Negative Resolution procedure. This is,
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of course, a big experiment—and I do not object to it. I would echo the words of the noble Earl, that the Government would not be worth their salt (I am paraphrasing but this is what he meant) unless they did make big experiments. So I think it is right that Parliament should have the opportunity to debate and approve this. That is why I move to delete subsection (9); and if your Lordships agree, I shall then move my other Amendment, which provides that only one pilot station cap be set up, and that no regulation shall be made under this clause except with the approval of both Houses of Parliament. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 36, leave out subsection (9).—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): I hope the noble Lord will allow me to follow the same course that he has followed—namely, not to limit my remarks to the first Amendment, but to consider at the same time his Amendment to Clause 1, at page 3, line 41, where he sets out what I might call his substantive case. As I understand the Amendment, it falls into two parts, and the purpose of the first part is to prevent the Minister from bringing the provisions of Clause 1 into effect until he has set up a pilot testing station and gained experience by the testing of vehicles. The noble Lord will forgive me if I am technical for a moment, because it is not my intention to deal with his point in a technical way; but I think he will see, if he considers his Amendment, that from a technical point of view he has not quite achieved his purpose, because it would be possible for the Government to bring it in immediately after the setting up of the station and before the experience is gained. I only put that point to him as something that he ought to consider.
The position is that it is, and it has been announced to be, the Government's intention to establish a pilot testing station at which vehicles will be tested free of charge, and the operation of which is expected to yield the valuable results that are in the noble Lord's mind. So far as that is concerned, I do not think there is any difference between us. The point where I should make an appeal to the noble Lord is that, although it is

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unlikely that the testing of any particular class or description of vehicles will be introduced until we have digested the lessons to be learned from the pilot station, I would ask him to consider whether he really wants to make the two things conditional. In your Lordships' House we know that we shall, before the Bill leaves this House, have hammered out between us, and with co-operation, a satisfactory method of dealing with this testing problem. The great majority of your Lordships, in all parts of the House, want to find an effective way of dealing with this point—for the very simple reason that not one of your Lordships who is in the House to-day can tolerate, any more than I can, these terrible figures of accidents without taking some step, and as I say, the best step which our co-operative intelligence can give—to deal with the problem; and I think that testing must be explored.
Therefore, I would ask the noble Lord not to press his suggestion at this stage, because it might go out that the noble Lord—who, I know, feels so strongly and clearly on this point—was apparently putting an obstacle in the way of a desirable state of things which we all want. I will consider it, and my noble friend and I will be pleased to meet the noble Lord to consider and discuss the matter with him. But I would ask him not to press this hard and fast condition which his Amendment would impose, at this stage in the Bill. If he feels that we have not met him properly, he will have ample opportunity of bring the matter up again at a later stage, but I hope that will not be necessary.
With regard to the second part, the noble Lord has been a Minister himself, and he knows that this is one of the most difficult problems which faces Ministers. On the one hand, as he has said, there is a danger, despite (I think my memory is right) the forty days which regulations have to lie on the Table and can be prayed against, that something may be missed. But after twenty years' experience, at both ends of the gun, I must say that it is remarkable how few things have been missed that have really touched the daily lives of the people of this country. It is a remarkable fact that, in my experience, any regulations that have a popular content, have usually
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been the subject of Prayers. Like the noble and learned Earl, I have in the past sat up until not merely what we in Scotland call the "wee sma' 'oors" of the morning, but far beyond, until the hours have got quite appreciable in number, listening to Prayers.
But I should like to put it to the noble Lord on a wider issue than that. That is a matter of opinion, and the noble Lord might well say, "If some may be missed, that is enough for my argument." I think it is more than that, however. One has to consider both Houses of Parliament, and whatever Party is on the Treasury Bench, indubitably, if our experience of the last thirty years is not going to be changed with a suddenness which none of us expects, there will be a tight legislative programme for as far into the future as we can see. The difficulty of providing for an Affirmative Resolution, as the noble Lord knows so well, is that one has to find Government time for it, either within the usual hours or by suspension of the Rule. Therefore, I think one has really to consider an order of merit of regulations—the top half, the most meritorious of which will come into the Affirmative procedure, and the others into the Negative procedure.
One does not want to put either Governments or Legislative Assemblies into the position of spending unnecessary time. The short and businesslike point that I put to the noble Lord is that these regulations must cover certain things which are important, but they must also cover ancillary matters which are not so important but which must be brought into effect. For example, if regulations are made as to duplicate and loss of certificates, and a number of matters of that sort, clearly I do not think the noble Lord, from all that I have heard him say, would for a moment suggest that that is the sort of thing that should be brought into the Affirmative procedure. I agree that the case is more arguable—I want to put a perfectly fair case to the noble Lord—if one is considering, say, different classes of vehicles or things of that kind. But taking the whole range, and taking the general problem that I have endeavoured to pose, I suggest that the Negative Resolution procedure, by which the important matters can be selected by watchful noble Lords and by watchful Members of another place and

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brought up, is more fitting in regard to our subject matter.
As I say, I admit at once that this is a very difficult point, and I am glad that the noble Lord has brought it up and has discussed it in the way he has done. If I may say so, with respect, I think the House ought always to be on the watch to see that the liberty of the House is preserved in this way. But I should like to put the other point to the noble Lord. A long time ago, in the old Coalition days, the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, appointed me as chairman of a sub-committee to consider this sort of point when we were thinking collectively of future Parliamentary methods. He may not remember it.
EARL JOWITT: Yes, I do.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I remember it very well. We tried to consider this point and to envisage the sort of value that regulatory powers have. The real value is twofold. One is the relief of business in another place, which may or may not be important; the other is that regulations under our modern legislative procedure can be tested and discussed with those who are going to be affected—that is perfectly good legislative practice—even before they are ultimately made. That sort of thing is important. Also, it is important, as the noble Lord knows so well from his own experience, that we should be able to apply right away certain regulations to deal with some hardship which they may be drawn to avoid. Therefore, for all these reasons, I ask the noble Lord to reconsider this matter and not press his Amendments today. If I can be of any service in any difficulty that he has, I am at his command, and shall be glad to meet him.
5.10 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: The Lord Chancellor has taken exactly the right line which always appeals to Members of this House. He has made a speech of sweet reasonableness and said that he will look into this matter. I do not know what attitude my noble friend will take, but I should suppose that he would accept the principle of what the Lord Chancellor has said and let the matter be reconsidered between now and the next stage. I hope very much that, when the Government reconsider—I am not on the particular merits of Amendment
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No. 17; I am on the simple point of an Affirmative or a Negative Resolution—they will come down, in this case, in favour of the Affirmative Resolution. The Lord Chancellor was, of course, perfectly right. Every Government—and I, too, have been on both sides of the gun—resists the Affirmative Resolution and tries to get the Negative Resolution, for the reason that the noble and learned Viscount gave: that the Affirmative procedure means the provision of time. As he rightly said, and has been the case ever since I have known Parliamentary time—and that is a very long while now—there has always been a tight programme; and, I suppose, always will be.
Here, to my mind, we have the sort of canons that make an Affirmative Resolution a justifiable request. First of all, this scheme is largely experimental; we are launching out into something quite new. The Committee, in their wisdom, have eliminated the idea of the authorised inspector: these are all going to be Government inspectors. Frankly, my fear—perhaps not my fear but what I believe will happen—is that it will not be possible to get nearly enough inspectors. You have to cut your coat according to your cloth. Therefore, in practice, you will have to limit strictly and drastically the number of vehicles to be examined, for in no other way will you be able to undertake the task. Then it may be said, with some force; "You leave out so many vehicles that it will become really hard and arbitrary on the comparatively small number of vehicles which have to go through this test." But all that is a matter which needs the careful consideration of Parliament, both here and in another place.
This scheme being experimental and open to the objection which I have indicated—and I do so in order that the Lord Chancellor may turn it over in his mind—it seems to me that this is a case in which this House ought to insist upon an Affirmative Resolution, in order that we may be quite certain that this matter is brought to our attention and that we can examine it. For that reason, although I do not know what attitude my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth will take, I can well understand that he may be disposed to agree with the Lord Chancellor's request and to have a discussion with him between now and the next stage. I very

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much hope that, when that discussion takes place, if not at the next stage, the Lord Chancellor will think this is an appropriate case for an Affirmative Resolution. If that is not so, I feel sure that my noble friend will desire at the next stage of the Bill to take the opinion of the House thereon.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My learned and noble Leader has echoed my thoughts precisely. I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor. He has treated the Opposition as I think Her Majesty's Opposition should be treated, with patience, and has given an exposition of his case. I quite agree with him that the matter is one of difficulty: in a wide clause like this when you sweep up all the powers, you sweep up the wheat and the chaff at the same time. It is so difficult to dissect it. I readily accept the invitation of the noble and learned Viscount. I should like to discuss the matter with him. It would do me a lot of good: I should learn much by discussing it. But I ask him to bear in mind that one or two of the powers the Minister is given are very wide; the others, I agree, are trivial. I will not detain your Lordships now. I will accept the noble and learned Viscount's offer and discuss this matter with him. I know that he will accept what I say now: that, if I am not satisfied after consultation with my colleagues, the Amendments may reappear in some form at the next stage of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: This Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 37, leave out ("and orders").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
5.16 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved to leave out Clause 1. The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment, I think I should say that many noble Lords on this side of the House believe that further testing is necessary, but they feel that the only satisfactory way is to increase spot checks which are already covered by Section 17 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933. By this method any large increase of staff would be avoided. I have no doubt that
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the threat of the spot checks would go a long way towards the keeping of cars in better order. In view of the very adverse views on the working of this clause, I feel that I must move this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 1.—(Lord Teynham.)
EARL HOWE: Now that we have got rid of what I regarded as a pernicious practice, the appointing of authorised persons to examine motor cars, we are left with Government stations. As has already been so well said by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, the number of cars that would have to come to these Government stations is, so far as I understand the position at the moment, more than could possibly be dealt with. Therefore it seems to me that it will be necessary for the Government to reduce the requirements. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has suggested that the spot check may be necessary. It seems to me that there is another principle which the Government might put forward and which I think would receive a great deal of support, and that is that any motor car should, on change of ownership, be subject to examination and should require a certificate. Whether or not that is possible, I do not know, but I should greatly value from the Government some sort of statement about it; or, if they are not prepared to say anything about it at the moment, at least an assurance that when we come to the Report stage they will deal with that particular point.
I cannot help feeling that that is where most of the trouble lies. One sees these small-power cars going about, and obviously, they are not maintained 100 per cent. by garages. They are the ones which I am sure the Minister and all of us want to catch. For obvious reasons, they are a potential menace, when they are on the road. If their owners were told that on resale and change of ownership they would have to obtain a certificate, I cannot help thinking that the result would be valuable. I hope the Government will be able to give us some assurance that they will look into the matter again; otherwise, I should feel inclined to get rid of the whole clause, because I do not think it will do the slightest bit of good. There is a not very elaborate examination which will cost the people who go in for it 10s.; and what

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are they getting for their 10s.? There are the great delays and bother involved. I do not believe there is need for it. Only 2 per cent. of accidents are alleged to be due to defective vehicles, and I submit that in cases where accidents occur it may well be that, to save himself from being blamed, the driver says, "My brakes did not act," or "My steering did not work," or something of that sort. It may be that many of the accidents chalked up against the failure of a vehicle may have been due much more to the failure of the driver. However that may be, I hope the Government will be able to give us an assurance of further consideration of this matter.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I, too, hope that the Government will be able to reconsider this matter. The noble Earl the Paymaster General, in his initial speech this afternoon, said, with some asperity, that any proposals for increasing safety are met with flat opposition. I think that is a most unfair statement, because it is the general wish on all sides of the House that we should promote safety and preserve human life. What we differ about is the best way of doing it. The Government's proposal has found no friend in any quarter of your Lordships' House. Very rarely have I heard proposals such as are contained in Clause 1 so riddled with argument.
As the noble and learned Earl, the Leader of the Opposition, said, this is no Party matter at all; we all have a common purpose. Various alternative suggestions have been made as to how this safety, which is the common purpose of us all, should be achieved. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, mentioned one just now, and Lord Teynham mentioned another one—a proposal for increasing spot checking. I am not competent to argue upon those. All I think we are united about is a resistance to the proposals as put forward and explained by the Government this afternoon. I sincerely hope that the Government will take the view expressed on all sides of the House that their proposals, brought forward with all sincerity, and, with the best will in the world, put forward for the Committee to discuss, have not been found acceptable to your Lordships and therefore should be withdrawn for further consideration as to how this common purpose can be achieved.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: I should like to say a word or two in support of this Amendment. All of us would wish that there might be some additional power to test the roadworthiness of road vehicles, but it should be something much more modest than has been proposed in this Bill. In regard to the city of Leeds and to this question of roadworthiness, I have some statistics which might interest the Committee. There are in Leeds some 46,590 vehicles registered, and from January, 1954, to November, 1954, the following were the figures of prosecutions for defective vehicles: tyres, 22; brakes, 391; vehicles otherwise in a dangerous condition, 459. That is a total of 872 prosecutions out of a total number of 46,590 vehicles registered. That is roughly 2 per cent., in a city where we have a most active chief constable and police force. A large number of these offences related to braking offences (where a handbrake was not effective and that sort of thing); vehicles in a dangerous condition included those where the steering was not all it ought to be, although in some cases it was quite effective, and vehicles, for example, whose mudguards were found to be jagged or otherwise damaged. Therefore, those figures surely suggest that the expense involved in setting up the wholesale machinery which this Bill proposes is quite out of proportion to the problem. It would perhaps seem that more attention ought to be paid to the drivers and not to the vehicles, because in that same city of Leeds, during the same period of eleven months, 754 drivers were prosecuted for dangerous driving, driving without due care and attention, and driving without reasonable consideration.
I submit that in its present form and in so far as it relates to the setting up of this large inspection machinery, the Bill is quite out of proportion to the problem. I am bound to say that I am attracted by the suggestion made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who has great experience in these matters, whereby some inspection might take place when second-hand vehicles change hands. That would be a modification of the present proposal. Some system of testing might be provided in many cases where second-hand motor cars, sold perhaps at auction marts and so on, are, so to speak, just made up for the occasion and at present are not properly tested. Your Lordships may

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know that many of the larger motor companies now have a special system whereby they do not sell second-hand cars except after full inspection, and where the cars are guaranteed for a period of three or six months. In cases where a reputable firm gives that guarantee or the makers give such a guarantee, it might be possible to proceed without any inspection; but I should have thought that there could not be the same objection to the inspection of a limited number of vehicles (such as those which change hands from the first to the second owner or from the second to the third, and so on), as there is, in my view, to the wholesale inspection proposal included in this clause. I hope that the Committee will reject the clause in its present form.
LORD WOLVERTON: I should like to say a word in support of my noble friend Lord Teynham. I feel that something ought to be done and that the Government and the whole House ought to have second thoughts on this clause, because it is not satisfactory as it stands at present. I have been told that in relation to the two clauses that I moved (Clauses 17 and 18) of the Road and Rail Traffic Act there is not satisfactory inspection. I, too, must say that I was most attracted by the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Howe, that it is really the older vehicles which should be first inspected at an experimental station. I do not think we ought to embark on a large scheme of inspection until we have gained more experience. I should like to see an experimental station set up. Naturally, if one can stop any fatal accident one must try and do it, but the figures show that only 2 per cent. of the total number of accidents in the country are caused because of faulty mechanism. That is not a very large amount, and I suggest that we ought to go warily on this matter. As the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, said, we must try to break new ground, but in doing that I think we ought to go warily and think again on this clause before we pass it in its present form.
LORD WINSTER: I should like to support this Amendment, on two grounds. First, I do not think that the frequency with which mechanical defects are associated with causes of accidents is so great as to justify the elaborate machinery which Clause 1 seeks to set
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up; and secondly, supposing, for the sake of argument, it were admitted that some machinery nevertheless was necessary, I think the machinery set up for the purpose is most exaggerated—too exaggerated for the purpose in view. Apparently you get a check on January 1, and then you can proceed to let your car drift into disrepair until the 31st December, when hurriedly you have it put in order and proceed to get your certificate again on January 1. I think the precaution is illusory. I do not consider it deals effectively with the point which the Government have in mind. Those are the two reasons for which I would support the Amendment. I could not agree with the suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that the purchaser of a second-hand car must obtain a certificate of roadworthiness from the seller. I prefer to stick to the old motto, caveat emptor. If a man is so foolish as to buy a second-hand car without going to the trouble of getting an expert opinion upon it, he fully deserves any penalty to which the mechanical defects of that car may render him liable in case of an accident.
EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Lord what happens in the event of an accident?
LORD WINSTER: I have just said that I think the purchaser must accept—and fully deserves—the penalty to which he may be liable if he buys a second-hand car without getting a proper opinion upon it.
EARL HOWE: But what of the public? What if that driver knocks someone over as the result of a mechanical defect?
LORD WINSTER: The position is the same to-day. I stick to my point: it is a case of caveat emptor, and a man who buys a second-hand car without getting a proper opinion upon it deserves any penalty in which he may find himself involved. Something was said about spot checking. As a general principle I hope that that will not involve the police to any great extent. The time of the police is already taken up to far too great an extent with motoring offences and precautions. The remedy for that is to institute a traffic corps to deal with these matters and to relieve the overworked police of their burden. I believe the proper way to deal with the matters which

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Clause 1 is intended to cover is for magistrates to be vigilant and, in cases where accidents are proved to be due to mechanical defects in a car which the driver and owner have neglected to repair, to inflict far more and severer penalties than many do at present.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before I make any observations on this Amendment I would draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that we seem to have been discussing Amendment No. 59 for half an hour. There is an Amendment down in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, which covers the physical condition of vehicles on sale and on change of ownership. I do not want to discuss that matter now, as I may have some observations to make when the subject comes to be debated; but perhaps it would be advisable if we left discussion on that particular item until we get to that specific Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to the noble Lord. My noble friend had just drawn my attention to Section 8 of the 1934 Act. May I ask you to consider the general position of testing? I told your Lordships a few moments ago that Her Majesty's Government were quite prepared for discussion and that I believed that, by our common intelligence, we could work out a system. I hope noble Lords will forgive my being personal for a moment, but it happens that my own experience at the Bar, for the first ten or fifteen years, was largely concerned with what, in these happy days, we call "running down" cases. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, has spoken on this Amendment, he may remember that the first time we met was at a coroner's inquest after the Harrow Hill accident in the East Riding, a longer time ago than either of us now would like to think.
I should like noble Lords in all parts of the House to reconsider their approach to the question of the condition of vehicles and their contribution to accidents. In my own experience, time and time again I saw young men getting hold of a car, bought in those days for £5 or £10, at fifth or sixth hand, and taking it on the road. I ask you to apply the personal test and to think of your own first car or the first car of a number of your friends. In most cases it was anything but a first-hand car. I am not going to make any
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admissions that can be held against me, but I should not like to say very much about my own first car or how many hands it had gone through. Seriously, that is a fact of human nature and human experience which has to be taken into account, and even the figures of the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, if I have got them right—I think there were over 800 cases of defects in the vehicle and 750 cases where drivers were convicted—
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: They were prosecutions.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That does not weaken my point; because, even if there are only 2 per cent., if there are as many cases where there are defects in the vehicle as there are defective drivers, we are dealing with a very serious point. I believe the noble Lord spoke of about 350 cases of vehicles with defective brakes. That is a terrifying fact: that in a city like Leeds, which I know well, or in any of the big cities we know, there should be 350 people who will take a defective lethal instrument on to the roads. It may mean that, at a critical moment, proper command is absent and somebody's life may go. I paid great attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Winster, said with regard to the question of a purchaser, and I entirely agree with him that caveat emptor is a very sound rule. But what we are worried about is caveat moriturus; and there have been far too many morituri in the past few years, and far too many who have died because of this aspect, among others. I am not saying that this is the only factor or the most important—I could not argue on that—but that it is important twenty years of personal experience have convinced me.
We, as a House—if noble Lords will allow me to put it in that way—have to do something about it; we have, therefore, to give further consideration to this question of testing which Her Majesty's Government have proposed. It is the good fortune of the Government that we have had a number of suggestions put forward and these will be considered and we shall try to find the best method; but (and I choose my words with the greatest care) I say that it would be a major tragedy if, at this stage in the Bill, your Lordships' House were to eliminate the suggestion of testing and so eliminate what I believe will be a great help in

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dealing with our problem. I hope that I have satisfied my noble friend Lord Teynham by saying this. I repeat that we shall be very pleased to consider any suggestions as to methods and any improvements. I do ask him, however, at this stage to leave this provision in the Bill, and not to press for its exclusion, for it represents a most important aspect of road safety. Let us go on, as I say, co-operatively, in order to try to get the best Bill we can. But for us to delete the clause, and for it to go out from this House that we are prepared to tolerate the danger of ill-conditioned vehicles and ineffective brakes, would, I repeat, be a major tragedy; and I ask my noble friend not to press us into that position today.
5.40 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: I, too, in my early days at the Bar, had a very large practice in "running down" cases. I think I had the honour of appearing for the London General Omnibus Company in those days, and I got to know a good deal about these matters. What I say to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, is this: it is not correct to say that we would tolerate these ineffective brakes and these cars in bad condition. But we feel that the system provided for under Clause 1 is not the most effective way of dealing with this matter. I think he will realise that that is so if he will consider it. The Committee, in their wisdom, have eliminated the idea that authorised garages were going to do this, and the inspections have now to be done by Government inspectors. In the nature of things, we are really playing with this question, and we are deceiving ourselves if we think that it will be possible to have a very large number of inspectors. Of course it will not.
The point for the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor to consider is really this: Are the Government going to spread the services of the few inspectors they can get over the whole range of vehicles, most of which do not need inspection at all? Or are they going to concentrate on particular types of vehicles which ought to be inspected, and, in my view, ought to be inspected much more often than once a year? The real trouble, as I said before, is that you
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do not get anything out of the inspection once a year. You get brakes tested, steering tested, and so on. But what guarantee have you that, having had brakes tested and steering tested on January 1, they will be in order on February 1?
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Winster, that if, when a case goes before magistrates—in Leeds or anywhere else, and whether there has been accident or not—a person is convicted of driving a car with defective brakes or steering or anything of that sort, the magistrates should take away his licence for a long time. That is the effective way to deal with this matter. By all means continue to have spot checks and all that sort of thing. But I say to the Lord Chancellor that in Clause 1 he has an unworkable clause. He will, I hope, consider between now and the Report stage whether it would not be advisable for him to move a much better clause, a clause containing some different conception altogether. The conception of the clause as it now stands is, I say frankly, quite unreal. I beg the Lord Chancellor to consider whether the right thing to do now is not to clear away this clause which really cumbers the ground at the present time, and think the problem over again.
Do not let it be said that we do not want to cure the evil arising from these defective vehicles: we do. But we do not want, because we are frightened of the morituri or of a large number of people becoming mortui, to take unreal and ineffective steps, which will do absolutely nothing to cure this evil. I hope that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will say: "Let me have Clause 1 out of the Bill and see whether I cannot devise some better method of securing the safety of the public and of seeing that vehicles are properly inspected as often as necessary." I am sure that that would be the wise course for the Government to follow, instead of hanging on to a clause which does not command any assent in any part of the Committee.
5.47 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I draw the attention of the noble and learned Earl to a provision near the end of the Bill which I think meets one of his points. I refer to Clause 25 (2) (b) of

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the Bill. There we have made special provision that:
"different days may be appointed for the coming into operation of subsection (4) of section one of this Act in relation to different classes or descriptions of vehicles."
I think the noble and learned Earl will see that that is no mere debating point, and that it does mean that the Government can approach this problem under the present procedure by stages which will deal with those classes of vehicles which seem most necessarily to require the provision.
On the general point that the noble and learned Earl has made, I do ask him to reconsider his recommendation to the Committee. It is, I think, one of the most difficult things in legislation to provide for improvements, and to secure assent for improvements, which are at the same time restrictive and lay further burdens on large sections of the community. I have listened to a great deal of the debate on the Second Reading and to-day, and, so far as I know, no one has suggested methods which do not involve restrictions and extra burdens on motorists. And no one has said, as I understand noble Lords, that positively, as opposed to relatively, in relation to other matters, there should not be tests. I have heard the views of noble Lords—and opinions such as those expressed by the noble and learned Earl are opinions to which I attach the greatest weight—and I have heard them say that, despite a test on February 1, a car may be useless by March 1. But the thing I have seen kill people is a car that has not been tested or been to a garage for three years. That is the fact that has existed, and it would be a very good thing if some of the cars I have seen involved in accidents had been tested even as infrequently as once a year.
Your Lordships were good enough on the last Amendment to take one aspect of the matter on which discussions might prove fruitful, and I am perfectly prepared, and the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, is prepared, to consider any suggestions in a way which appeals to your Lordships. But to take away the basis of the work that has gone into the Bill and, above all, o force this Amendment through would have the undoubted effect on people outside of making them think that your Lordships' House was not really prepared
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to consider testing or to attach importance to it. I ask your Lordships to reflect on this point: that, whatever may be said on the question of whether there is a better system of testing, if your Lordships eliminate a clause which provides the test, the effect will be a blow to the Bill at the outset from which it will be very difficult for it to recover. Therefore, I do ask your Lordships to give us this further chance and, accepting What I have said about our readiness to discuss, to leave this clause in. If your Lordships so desire, if you feel that we have not met you and that we have not satisfied you, then you can come back to the attack on the Report stage; but I appeal to you not to take action at this stage which, with the utmost respect to your Lordships, I am sure you would regret in the future.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I want to say only one word. I do not know whether the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor was in the House when I made my opening speech, but I think he would like to correct something he said, because I should not like it said that I personally am against testing vehicles. I said at the outset that I was at one with the Government in saying that vehicles should be tested. We cannot afford not to have vehicles tested, and tested more often than this Bill envisages. But, as my noble and learned Leader has said, I put forward an alternative, so I hope the noble and learned Viscount will not say that, so far as I am concerned, I am not in agreement—and no other noble Lord that I have heard has been in anything but absolute agreement—with the necessity of testing vehicles. That is the only point I have to make.
EARL HOWE: May I submit one point to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor? In order to try to make this Bill effective could not testing be concentrated on the change of ownership, in spite of what the noble Lord, Lord Winster has said on this particular point? It seems to me that if you do that in the first instance, you may be able at a later stage, when the scheme has developed, to bring in other classes of vehicles. I think the vehicle that changes ownership six, seven, eight or more times is the vehicle on which we ought to concentrate. I am quite certain that the noble and learned

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Viscount the Lord Chancellor has seen that class of vehicle, and he spoke about it in his speech.
LORD TEYNHAM: I fully appreciate what has been said by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor about this Amendment and this clause. I am sure that it is quite clear on both sides of the Committee that we do not wish it to go out that we do not want some improvement in the form of testing; but many of us think that the method suggested in this clause is the wrong way of doing it and that there may be a better way. I understand from the noble and learned Viscount that he has given an assurance that this matter will be looked at again before the next stage of the Bill, and on that basis I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 1, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD BURDEN: Before we leave this clause may I raise two points, merely for information? The first is in regard to the words "or causes to be used on the road," and it arises out of the points which have been made in regard to second-hand cars. Everyone has seen dozens of cars exposed for sale on the main roads. Are those cars on the road if they are exposed for sale in a yard belonging to a garage? Secondly, if a person buys a second-hand car which has not with it a certificate, will the seller of the car be the person who causes the car to be used on the road or will it be the person who is driving the secondhand car who causes it to be used on the road?
The next point is this: everyone knows that since the duties and responsibilities in regard to inspection, and so on, were placed on the police following the 1930 Act, the police in the various forces have acquired a vast amount of knowledge in handling problems connected with motor lorries and motor cars, and the point of the intervention made by my noble friend, Lord Milner of Leeds, was to illustrate that under the present system the police are "picking up" a number of people who are under the existing law guilty of offences. I should like to ask the noble Earl what will be the position of the police under the projected new set-up,
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assuming that agreement is reached in regard to the appropriate form of Clause 1. Is it not possible that further and increased powers could be given to help the police solve the problem, in view of the difficulty of getting trained personnel to deal with this very great question, as the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has rightly indicated? Those are my questions, but I am not pressing for an answer now, though if later on the noble Earl could let me have answers I should be very much obliged.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Perhaps the noble Lord will excuse me if I do not answer in detail. We have not yet passed this Bill, so it is very difficult for us to interpret it. Moreover the Government have just been defeated on an Amendment, and that makes it even more difficult to say how we stand. I think I can say, by and large, that vehicles exposed for sale are not necessarily on the road. It depends on the facts. In the ordinary course the person who drives would, I take it, be the owner, and there is no intention of interfering with the powers of the police. Our intention rather is not only to maintain the existing law but to get it enforced more effectively. That is the whole purpose of this clause.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Removal from roads of vehicles causing obstruction
2. In paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of section fifty-nine of the Act of 1930 as amended by section twenty-two of the Act of 1934 (which paragraph empowers the Minister by regulations to provide among other things for the removal from roads, and safe custody, of vehicles which have been allowed to remain at rest on a road so as to be likely to cause danger to other users) after the word "danger" there shall be inserted the words "or obstruction."
5.56 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved to omit all words after "word" and to insert instead:
"'road' there shall be inserted the words 'or obstruction to the free passage of ambulances, fire appliances or other similar vehicles engaged in the saving of life or the preservation of property'."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to remove from Clause 2, page 4, line 7 the word "obstruction" because I feel that it is too wide and it gives far too much power to the police, who can move any motor car on the street for

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obstruction, serious or not. I am not tied to the wording of my Amendment. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has pointed out once before that I am but a poor Parliamentary draftsman, and I admit it. The only reason why I have used these words is because they are precisely the words that the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, used in his Second Reading speech. I will quote from column 569 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of Tuesday, December 21, 1954. In the debate in your Lordships' House Lord Selkirk said this [Vol. 190 (No. 10)]:
"It will now be possible for them to be removed if they cause obstruction. I think your Lordships will agree that such a course is necessary, particularly where an ambulance or a fire engine is obstructed, for one car can cause a hold-up over a wide area."
That is the reason why I used those words.
There is an Amendment down in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, which seeks to do precisely the same as I seek to do—that is, to remove the word "obstruction"; but he wants to insert "serious interference." That kind of phraseology makes me shudder. What is "serious"? In road traffic law we have had some very unhappy experiences by reason of loose descriptions. If the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who will reply on this Amendment, will tell me that he accepts the principle of what I want to do, though he does not like my wording, I shall be perfectly happy. Perhaps he will produce a better Amendment at a later stage. I think your Lordships would agree that to say that a vehicle can be removed for obstruction can mean anything—it is far too wide. I think noble Lords could give many cases in which motor cars have been towed away by the police for the most trivial reasons. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 7, leave out from ("word") to end of line 8 and insert (" 'road' there shall be inserted the words 'or obstruction to the free passage of ambulances, fire appliances or other similar vehicles engaged in the saving of life or the preservation of property '.")—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD TEYNHAM: In view of the text Amendment on the Order Paper which stands in my name, I think I had better speak to this Amendment. It is true to say that there are many thousands of vehicles now standing in the streets of London which could be removed at any
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time, and at a time when the Government have not yet commenced building any of the new underground or multi-storeyed garages recommended by the Working Party on Car Parking in Inner London. As the law stands at present, the police have power to remove vehicles which have broken down or are likely to cause damage or danger to other traffic. I am certainly in sympathy with the intention of the Government to get rid of all-day parking in the busy streets of London, but I do not think this is the right way to do it. I suggest that to harass motorists and commercial vehicle owners in this mariner is going too far, and I think the proposal needs some qualification before it can be accepted by your Lordships. I also suggest that if the present powers of the police were extended in the manner envisaged by this clause, too much power would be placed in the hands of the individual police constable. The individual policeman would become the sole arbiter in a matter at present decided by the courts when a prosecution for creating an obstruction takes place.
I understand with regard to commercial vehicles that proprietors have in some cases been charged under Regulation 88 of the Construction and Use Regulations, 1937, with causing unnecessary obstruction, but it is interesting to relate that in every case the court has dismissed the charge on the ground that the obstruction was necessary in the course of business. Surely that clearly demonstrates that if the words "or obstruction" are not modified in this clause, they may well lead to misplaced zeal on the part of the police in not making allowance for necessary obstruction in the course of business—except, of course, in cases of emergency. I feel strongly that the wording of this clause should be modified, not only because I think that as it stands it would defeat the course of justice, but because I feel that it might well produce harmful antagonism between the motorists and the police. I hope the Government will give the matter their earnest consideration. I am certainly not tied to the wording of my Amendment, and if the House would permit I should like to put forward a Manuscript Amendment as an alternative to the one which has been moved.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: On a point of order. I have an Amendment before the House, and I should like to hear the Government reply before the noble Lord moves his Manuscript Amendment.
LORD MANCROFT: If it is acceptable to the House, I shall try to deal with the noble Lord's Amendment and then devote myself to Lord Teynham's Amendment. I think we are at one on the problem. We have only to go out from here and walk north to see the intolerable congestion of our back streets—and the back streets of other cities are in the same condition—to realise how acute is this problem. Street after street is practically impassable during rush hours. Obstruction may be caused by one misparked car. One car may jam up a whole street. That is what we are really trying to deal with in this clause. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, was correct in mentioning the cases of fire engines and ambulances. In our Second Reading speeches, my noble friend Lord Selkirk and I both gave those as examples—but only as examples, because those two cases are occasioning the police the most trouble. The London Fire Brigade have more than once represented to us at the Home Office their anxiety that in places like Soho they may very soon be faced with the fact that they cannot get their engines through several streets. As your Lordships probably know, in London every fire call is answered by two stations at once in order to prevent the risk that one engine may become completely jammed in the streets. I also mentioned ambulances because we had a case recently of a gentleman who saw fit constantly to park his car outside the ambulance exit of one of our leading hospitals, and his car could not be moved because he was only causing an obstruction.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has explained the law on this matter correctly. The police have the right to remove a vehicle if it is parked in such a way as to cause danger; but they cannot remove it for causing an obstruction. It is not only fire engines and abulances we are worrying about; one misparked car in a street will obstruct not only a fire engine or an ambulance but also the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in his Rolls Royce,
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and any other car passing down the street. It is the duty of the police to keep the streets open to all traffic that desires to use them: the police earnestly require the powers in this clause because they say that without such powers to remove a car that causes an obstruction, they do not think they will be able in the near future to carry out their task in the crowded streets of our cities. I cordially agree with noble Lords who would say that we must not put too much power in the hands of the police. We must not run the risk of antagonising the public against the police for over-zealous use of their powers.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, asked what is an "obstruction." I hesitate to say this in the presence of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, and the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice, but so far as I know there is no statutory definition. The word is, however, tolerably familiar in the courts and has come up on numerous occasions for consideration. On the other hand, the words which the noble Lord mentioned in his speech would be less easy to construe. I am not at all convinced that his words would be an improvement on ours. It has been suggested that the police might carry out with an excess of zeal the removal of a vehicle which is causing an obstruction. Surely this would not happen. They have to go through the physical work of removing the vehicle and they are not going to do that irresponsibly, as an afternoon's "jolly" for the police, to see how many more vehicles one division can remove than the next. As your Lordships well know, they will remove a vehicle causing obstruction as quickly, as fairly and as decently as possible. I think it is only fair to say that in the past, in such extremely difficult tasks the police have exercised much discretion and tact and as much care as they possibly could
We are asking for this additional power for the police, but of necessity it will be used sparingly, because it is in the interests of the police themselves not to use it excessively. If they are not given this power to remove vehicles which are causing obstruction, the time will shortly come when the streets of our big cities will become completely impassable. I hope your Lordships will not accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, limiting the powers

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of the police to occasions when obstruction is caused to the passing of ambulances and fire engines, because I think it would be quite impossible to carry it out. One cannot say that a vehicle is causing obstruction to a yet unarrived fire engine, any more than one can say it is causing obstruction to a yet unarrived Lord Lucas of Chilworth in his Rolls Royce. I suggest that the wording we are proposing in this clause is fair and desirable and meets a problem which, if not met now, will shortly become intolerable.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: This is one of the many difficult practical questions which arise on this Bill. My difficulty is that, in my experience, the police bring summonses for obstruction without proof of actual obstruction. A motorist may leave his car in quite a wide street, and there is no proof whatever that anyone has been actually obstructed; yet a prosecution is brought. It has been suggested by a high authority that the mere fact that a car is left for an unreasonable length of time may be proof of obstruction. I am not sure about that, although it may be so. But in any event, if the noble Earl in charge of the Bill would make it clear that there had to be proof of actual obstruction before a car was removed, and not mere proof of parking, then I think I should take a different view. Unless that is the case, it seems to me that the clause as at present drafted lays the motorist open to considerable difficulty, and possible persecution, because the matter is left entirely in the hands of the police; whereas, if there had to be proof of actual obstruction, then evidence would have to be brought that some person or persons had been obstructed. In that event, I should have no objection to the clause. Otherwise, I think I must support the modification put forward by my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth, although I am not altogether happy about it, for some of the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. Perhaps the noble Lord could say a few words on the proof of obstruction.
LORD MANCROFT: To whom are the police to offer proof? They find the car of the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, causing what they, in their opinion, firmly believe to be obstruction to a potential fire engine. They cannot
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find the noble Lord, who is about his lawful business elsewhere in the city of Leeds, so, under the powers given by this clause, they remove the car, either to a pound or elsewhere. To whom have they got to prove, and how can they prove, that in the back of their minds was the opinion that the noble Lord's car was causing obstruction to potential but non-arrived fire engines?
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: The answer is that I should much prefer to be prosecuted for obstruction than to have my car removed, with the consequent difficulties that would arise.
LORD MANCROFT: No doubt; but what about the fire engine?
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: Thereupon it would be the duty of the police to prove obstruction at the court, and I should prefer that to be the case. At present it is not so. I think I am probably safe in saying that if two police constables go to the court and say that my car, or that of the noble Lord, was parked at a certain place, without proof of obstruction of any person or any other vehicle, there would be a conviction, at any rate in London—and I have had some experience of this.
LORD MANCROFT: I am afraid the noble Lord has completely misunderstood the purpose of this clause. This is not improving the procedure in the courts. I am afraid that nothing the noble Lord has said so far has directed my mind to that problem.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Usually the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, is persuasive, but this time he has been the reverse. He must think of something better than he has in the Bill at the moment. The noble Lord knows from his experience that this power in the Bill may be misapplied.
LORD MANCROFT: So could most powers.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Quite; and this has been misapplied. This may be the method used to clear the streets of London of parked motor cars, because once you clear the front one, as the noble Lord says, the one and only motor car that is causing obstruction, you then find that the one behind is causing the same amount of obstruction; and on

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you go. No reasonable person can sympathise with the man who causes obstruction; but I have had cases related to me where locked motor cars have been forcibly towed by the police where no obstruction could have been caused; technically, yes, but actually no. If this were to be done, the police authorities would want a fleet of towing cars of such a size that, if I could influence their sale and get the profit on it, I should then possess the mythical Rolls Royce of which the noble Lord appears to be so envious—I believe he must be slightly influenced by that vehicle that came to rest for such a long time in Montagu Square. I am not tied to this wording. I am going to give the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, an opportunity of moving his manuscript Amendment, and I will watch the outcome of that. I propose to withdraw this Amendment for the time being, but unless the noble Lord is going to be slightly more conciliatory to the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, he will find there is a serious obstruction on the Report stage of this Bill, because I shall put this Amendment down again.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.15 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM rose to move to leave out "after the word 'danger' there shall be inserted the words 'or obstruction' "and to insert
"for the words 'or to appear to have been abandoned, and of the loads carried thereby' there shall be inserted the words 'or which actually interfere with the free movement of traffic thereon, or which appear to have been abandoned'."
The noble Lord said: This Manuscript Amendment, which will effect an amendment in Section 22 (c) of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, I think affords the best way of dealing with the matter. Paragraph (c) would then read as follows:
"for making provision for the removal from roads, and safe custody, of vehicles (and of the loads carried thereby) which have broken down, or which have been permitted to remain at rest on a road in such a position or in such condition or in such circumstances as to be likely to cause danger to other persons using the road,"—
and this is the important suggested change—
"or which actually interfere with the free movement of traffic thereon, or which appear to have been abandoned."
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I suggest that that is a much better Amendment.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: I am not clear with what words the Amendment of the noble Lord would start so as to fit in with this Bill.
LORD TEYNHAM: In Section 22 of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, after the word "road" would be inserted the words,
"or which actually interfere with the free movement of traffic thereon, or which appear to have been abandoned."
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: That is at page 4, line 8, of this Bill?
LORD TEYNHAM: It is page 21 of the Road Traffic Act, 1934.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: But what page in this Bill?
LORD TEYNHAM: It is page 4, line 8, of this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, leave out lines 7 and 8 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Teynham.)
LORD MANCROFT: In the middle of this procedural drafting tunnel into which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, without warning, has led me, I must now emerge towards the only piece of light I can see; that is, the words "interfere with the free movement,"—which I hurriedly took down, not being as familiar with the Act from which he was quoting as I should be—which, so far as I can see, he would rather have in this Bill than the word "obstruction." For the life of me, I cannot see the difference between "interfering with the free movement" of something and "obstructing" it. If somebody obstructs the passage of this Bill, they interfere with the free movement of the Bill; and so they do with a motor car. I am taken completely by surprise by the Amendment, and I would ask the noble Lord to be good enough to withdraw it so that I can take advice upon it. I do not know what other members of the Committee think, but I should have thought that the words proposed by the noble Lord as a substitute mean the same as those which I suggest your Lordships should retain in the Bill.
LORD GODDARD: I should like to support the view the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has put before the Committee. The words which the noble Lord, Lord

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Teynham, wants to substitute are saying "obstruction," although using rather more words. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who asked whether there was a statutory definition of "obstruction." There is not. "Obstruction" is that which obstructs. If the free traffic over a road (because the public have the right to use the whole of the road) is obstructed—that is to say, if the public cannot move over the whole of the road—of course there is obstruction. Surely, we can trust the police to use a certain amount of common sense, and trust the magistrates, if they are satisfied that there is no ground for bringing the proceedings, to give an absolute discharge. I think it would be a great pity if we did not allow the police to move from the road vehicles which are causing an obstruction, and thereby a public nuisance. It seems to me that the words which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, used are exactly the same as the words proposed to be put in the Bill.
LORD TEYNHAM: In view of the fact that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is going to look at this Amendment again, I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.21 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN moved to add to the clause:
"(2) The following shall be inserted at the end of subsection (3) of Section fifty-nine of the Act of 1930—
'Provided that before commencing any proceedings to recover expenses under subsection (3) of this section the Chief Officer of Police shall cause a notice of the amount of such expenses to be served on the owner of the vehicle who if aggrieved by the amount of such expenses may within fourteen days of the service on him of the notice appeal to the Minister who after making such inquiries as he thinks fit may confirm or reduce the amount of such expenses.'"
The noble Viscount said: This Amendment seeks to give to anybody who is aggrieved by having had his vehicle removed from the road an opportunity to appeal. May I quote an example of where there may be obstruction, and yet it could hardly be held to be the driver's fault? Suppose someone driving a car were suddenly taken ill. If it was a wise man or woman, they would draw up to the side of the road, and if they were seriously ill would leave their car where
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it was rather than endanger the public, and possibly go into a house or be taken to a hospital to be dealt with. It would be bad luck on them if the police came along and towed away their vehicle, possibly to the outskirts—because I cannot imagine its being in the centre of London—incurring a heavy bill which the unfortunate individual would have to meet without any right of appeal. If he felt that he had the right to grumble, and it was pointed out that it was bad luck but there the matter stood, it would be a considerable benefit to his feeling and the good feeling of the public if he knew that he had the right to appeal. I do not see that on the face of it it would make very much difference in the cost or cause very great difficulty if this Amendment were allowed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 8, at end insert the said proviso.— (Viscount Stonehaven.)
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: I beg to support this Amendment. I have recently looked into one or two of these cases of removal, and I know it is a severe blow to the owner of a small car to have to go to the legal expense of suing. This Amendment makes matters much easier and should help in fostering good relationships with the police, in the saving of costs and in possibly discouraging the police from removing cars without sufficient cause.
LORD MANCROFT: I think I can set my noble friends' minds at rest on this matter and convince them that their Amendment is not necessary. May I draw their attention to Section 59 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, as amended by Section 22 (2) of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, the relevant passage of which reads as follows:
"Expenses payable out of a police fund incurred in the execution of duties imposed by regulations made under paragraph (c) of subsection 1 of this section shall be recoverable summarily by or on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police as a civil debt from the owner of the vehicle, and the sums so recovered shall be paid into the police fund."
The effect of this is that in the infrequent cases in which the police have to charge anyone with the cost of removing his vehicle the bill for the amount is normally sent to him before any question of proceedings arises at all. The first part of the noble Viscount's Amendment does not, therefore, do anything more than to

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instruct the police to do what in point of fact is already done. If, on receipt of the bill, the owner thinks that the charge is exorbitant, the law already provides him with his remedy: he can refuse to pay and wait until the police sue him for the recovery of the amount. Then if the court decide, as the noble Viscount may think they should, that the police have not been in the right, they will reject the claim. The Amendment my noble friends put forward only proposes, therefore, to place on the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation a duty which the courts already have, and which, I hope the noble Viscount will agree, they are better fitted to perform than the Minister.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: But it would be more expensive and much longer.
LORD MANCROFT: Not necessarily.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: Yes, because there is no charge, and directly you go to the courts there is a charge, and a very heavy one.
LORD MANCROFT: I do not think a defendant going to a court in a case like this would find himself very heavily in debt. He would be the defendant, remember.
LORD GODDARD: Surely it is better, if there is to be a dispute as to charges, that it should be decided in a court, and not to have another secret tribunal. Everybody is saying nowadays that so many things have to be decided by the Minister. How is he to decide this question? Surely it is better to have it fought out in court, where the costs will be very small.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I thought that if a note from the Minister could be sent to somebody who was aggrieved, explaining the fact that he had not much to grumble about, he would not waste the time of the courts by going to them. On the explanation given by my noble friend, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
6.27 p.m.
LORD MERTHYR LORD MERTHYR moved, after Clause 2 to insert the following new clause:
Causing death by reckless or dangerous driving
".—(1) Any person who causes the death of another person by the driving of a motor
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vehicle on a road recklessly, or at a speed or in a manner which is dangerous to the public, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, including the nature, condition and use of the road, and the amount of traffic which is actually at the time, or which might reasonably be expected to be, on the road, shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
(2) An offence against this section shall not be triable by quarter sessions; and where proceedings are taken before the sheriff the maximum term of imprisonment which may be imposed on conviction shall not exceed two years.
(3) Section twenty of the Coroners (Amendment) Act, 1926 (which makes special provision where the coroner is informed before the jury have given their verdict that some person has been charged with one of the offences specified in that section) shall apply to an offence against this section as it applies to manslaughter.
(4) Upon the trial of a person who is indicted for an offence against this section it shall be lawful for the jury, if they are satisfied that he is guilty of an offence under section eleven of the Act of 1930 (which relates to reckless or dangerous driving) to find him guilty of that offence, whether or not the requirements of section twenty-one of that Act (which relates to notice of prosecutions) have been satisfied as respects that offence."
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment, I should like to put before the House very shortly five simple propositions. The first is the most simple, but the most serious: that there are too many deaths on the road. The second is that Section 11 of the 1930 Act, which charges the offence of driving recklessly or dangerously, is not sufficient to deal with the worst of the cases that come before the courts. The third is that the only alternative—namely, the charge of manslaughter—is an unwieldy weapon, inappropriate, unsuitable and, above all, too complex to serve as a useful charge in these cases. As your Lordships know, it involves the learned judges in having to instruct juries lengthily and on the various degrees of negligence. Such instruction is, as I understand it, in every case unavoidable, but it does have the effect, so I am informed, of complicating the matter unduly in the minds of juries, with the result—and this is my fourth proposition—that juries often fail to convict guilty men on these charges. Therefore, fifthly, something is required in between these two extremes of manslaughter and dangerous driving. Hence the clause which I now beg to move.
I should like to make a few points in moving this clause. First, in the most serious cases of all it will still be possible

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to charge manslaughter—that is not ruled out by this Amendment. Secondly, it will be substantially simpler for juries to comprehend the evidence and the charge to the juries in these cases, because it will be necessary only to prove reckless or dangerous driving and the fact that somebody's death was caused by it. That is very much simpler than the necessary proof now in manslaughter. Therefore, as I have said, more guilty men will be convicted and fewer guilty men will be acquitted—in my view, a desirable thing.
Your Lordships may have noticed that in this Amendment there is no mention of "driving under the influence of drink." The reason for that omission is that the fact that a man may be drunk is not the direct cause of the death: it may be the indirect cause, it may be a very substantial cause, but it is an indirect and not a direct cause. The direct cause is the reckless or dangerous driving. I should like to mention this. If there is any doubt—and I believe there may be—whether on one of these charges evidence that a man has consumed liquor is admissible, then I think that at a later stage something ought to be put in the Bill to remove that doubt. I say "if" there is any doubt because, in my humble opinion, there is no doubt that evidence that a man was drunk at the time of the accident is admissible on a charge of dangerous driving, and still more so on a charge of manslaughter. On the other hand, I have heard it argued the other way and, if the contrary argument is to prevail, then I should like later, if this Amendment is passed to-day, to insert something to make it perfectly clear that in future evidence of that kind may be admissible in a court.
With regard to subsection (2), I would only point out that in Scotland bad cases can still be taken to the High Court, and not all cases will go to the sheriff. With regard to subsection (3), to save time I will ask your Lordships, if you will, to accept from me that, if subsection (1) is passed, subsection (3) is not only desirable but almost necessary merely as a part of the machinery of the law. Subsection (4) would enable a jury to convict on the lesser charge of dangerous driving under Section 11 of the Act of 1930. Your Lordships may ask why that is necessary. It is put in only for this reason—and I think it will be a very e case. If a
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jury found that, although a man was killed, and although the defendant was driving dangerously, nevertheless the dangerous driving did not cause the death, then they would be entitled to bring in a verdict of "dangerous driving" on a charge under the section comprised in this Amendment. I admit that I think those circumstances must be very rare, but subsection (4) would avoid the duplicity of charges which takes up so much time in the courts and involves defendants' being put on trial twice arising out of the same circumstances.
In asking your Lordships to pass this Amendment, I would say this to a hypothetical motorist: "If, in fact, you are innocent, this Amendment will do you no harm whatever. It will be no worse for you; you will, in fact, be in less peril than you are now. Your trial will be simpler, therefore shorter, and therefore less costly." I would also say to the same hypothetical motorist: "If, in fact, you are guilty, then I admit you are rather more likely to be convicted, but I make no apology for that." If the hypothetical motorist is a reasonable man, he will, I apprehend, agree with me that it is right that, if he is guilty, he should be convicted, and therefore that it is right that he should be more likely to be convicted. But I would add this to the same motorist: "If, being guilty, you are convicted under this clause, instead of for manslaughter, the maximum sentence for which you can be sent to prison is five years instead of life." Therefore, I do not think that the passing of this clause into law could be held by any reasonable man to be a disadvantage to motorists in general. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 2, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Merthyr.)
6.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: May I make one or two comments on this Amendment? I hope we shall have the advantage of the advice of the Lord Chief Justice. It is perhaps rather presumptuous for me, not having heard that advice, to offer comments, but may I, first of all, comment upon the propositions which the noble Lord has put forward in support of his Amendment? Of course, we all agree that there are too many deaths on the road; and we also agree, I hope, that there are too many injuries on the road. The kind of driving which

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causes death and the kind of driving which causes injury are the same. Therefore, in my submission to the House, there is something fundamentally illogical in attaching a special penalty to an offence, which is intrinsically the same, according to whether or not it actually causes death. I am aware that that is the present law of manslaughter, but I have always thought it anomalous, and I have always thought, in a sense, that one of the reasons why we get a number of perverse verdicts in manslaughter cases is precisely that juries are aware of that anomaly. So much for the first proposition.
Secondly, the noble Lord said that the penalties attaching to Section 11 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930—that is, reckless or dangerous driving—are inadequate. I have forgotten, but I think that two years is the maximum. Let us assume that that is correct. If they are inadequate, the right way of approaching this problem is by increasing the maximum penalty for an offence under Section 11 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. What must be fundamentally illogical, in my submission, is to increase the maximum penalty if the motorist happens to kill his victim but not if he happens to make him a cripple for life. That seems to me to be a radically illogical way of approaching this particular offence. It is just as bad to drive recklessly and cripple a man for life as it is to drive recklessly and by chance kill him instantly or let him die in hospital. The offence must be the same; the danger to the public is the same, because the motorist cannot foretell what the results of his dangerous or reckless driving may be. Therefore, if it is true, which I do not dispute, that in very bad cases the penalties attaching to Section 11 are inadequate, I can see no possible advantage in increasing them if death happens to result but not where a death does not happen to result. That, to my mind, is a serious criticism of the proposed new clause, as drafted, dealing with the second of the propositions.
In proposition No. 3, the noble Lord says that a charge of manslaughter is an unwieldy weapon. I entirely agree with him: it is unwieldy as a proceeding, and it is not easy altogether to direct a jury—at least, I should not think it is altogether easy to direct a jury, though I have never had that task myself—what they should
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bear in mind in considering a charge of motor manslaughter. I have prosecuted, and defended, in such cases, and I think I know some of the difficulties involved. Does the new clause make the position any easier? I could understand my noble friend's Amendment if he proposed to abolish motor manslaughter altogether. But just consider the difficulty and the complication attending a prosecution if motor manslaughter is not abolished and we pass this Amendment. This Amendment makes it a separate offence to cause death by dangerous or reckless driving. The Court of Criminal Appeal have held that the degree of negligence necessary to constitute dangerous driving does not necessarily constitute manslaughter if the act results in death. That was a matter which was disputed at one time, but has now been established. I wonder what the Lord Chief Justice would say to me if I were defending a man for manslaughter and in his presence were to say to the jury, "It is true, perhaps, that my client was driving recklessly—that is to say, not caring as to whether or not he caused injury to life; it is true that that in fact resulted in death, but he is not guilty of manslaughter." The Lord Chief Justice would not hesitate to tell me that I was talking nonsense.
If that is correct, let us see where we have got to on this issue of simplicity. There is the potential offence of manslaughter which may consist, as I understand it, rightly or wrongly, of causing death by wicked negligence in driving—which I understand to mean the negligence that is constituted by driving recklessly. Under this new clause there is proposed to be a totally separate offence, constituted by driving recklessly or dangerously and so causing death. There is an alternative verdict for the jury, under subsection (4) of the clause, which involves a potentially alternative verdict of dangerous or reckless driving without causing death. We have got, I suppose, the coroner's verdict of manslaughter, which may or may not exist under subsection (3) of the Amendment. To my mind, amendment of the law in this way would produce a legal tangle which was worse, and not better than, the position which it is sought to remedy.
The fourth proposition was that at present juries often fail to convict guilty men. I think there may be a

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good deal of truth in that, and I believe the reason to be that it is fundamentally illogical to attach a special penalty to driving which results in death. I believe that a properly directed jury in a proper case ought always, on an indictment for motor manslaughter, at least to find a verdict of dangerous driving, which they are entitled to do, I think, under Section 34 of the Road Traffic Act, 1934.
The conclusion which the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, has drawn from all this is that we require a totally new offence—new because it is not manslaughter; new because it is not careless; new because it is not reckless or dangerous driving, but something in between. To my mind, that is adding a fifth wheel to an already overburdened coach. What is really wanted, and the simplicity of what is really wanted, is to increase the maximum penalty for dangerous driving and to allow motor manslaughter to fall into desuetude, so that, when serious accidents occur, a proper prosecution can be brought, carrying with it, if you like, the maximum penalty which the noble Lord proposes in his Amendment. Let the man be judged on his driving, without the complicating factor of whether his bad driving results in death or serious injury. I believe then that there would be fewer perverse acquittals. I believe that it would provide a much simpler task for the judge, and would also make much simpler the task of those who have to face a charge of this kind. After all, none of us wants those who have to face a charge of this kind to suffer embarrassment in preparing their defence; on the contrary, we want them to direct their attention to the merits of the case.
6.45 p.m.
LORD GODDARD: If I may say so, I heartily welcome this clause and commend it to the Committee. I believe that if it is passed it will remedy a state of affairs which is not creditable to the juries and to the general administration of the criminal law in this country. The number of cases in which motorists are charged with reckless driving and in which the evidence is sufficient to shock decent people, and yet juries will not convict, is truly remarkable—and no one has yet been able to find a way of depriving a British jury of its privilege of returning a perverse verdict. I entirely agree with
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what the noble Viscount who has just addressed the Committee has said: as the law stands, it is often illogical. To some extent, there will always be some illogicality in saying that it should be a more serious offence if a man drives recklessly and kills a person than if he drives recklessly—because the real crime, of course, is the reckless driving. I have often addressed magistrates in that vein when speaking to them up and down the country. I try to remind them that the offence of driving dangerously ought not to be judged merely on the fact of whether or not there is an accident. On the other hand, is it more illogical to say that if death does result the offence should be treated as a more serious one, than it is to say that if you charge a man with attempted murder, it has not such a serious result as the offence of murder, although the wickedness in his heart may be exactly the same?
What is the present position? I should like the Committee to bear this in mind. I am going to make a confession; to some extent, I suppose, I am partly responsible for a suggestion made to a former Minister of Transport which brought about the present position. If a man drives recklessly or dangerously and causes death, then, prima facie, that is manslaughter, except that a jury always has the right to say that the degree of danger is not sufficient to justify a finding of manslaughter, that the degree of negligence is not high enough. But if there is reckless driving which results in death, it always was, and always ought to be, manslaughter. Juries hate the word "manslaughter." They see in front of them a sentence being given of ten years, fifteen years, or something of that sort. They associate manslaughter with murder trials and, for some reason or another, although the judge may tell them that they need not be afraid that anything approaching murder is involved in the matter, they will not return a verdict of manslaughter when they ought to.
Accordingly, when the Bill of 1933 was being discussed in Parliament, I and two other judges suggested to the then Minister of Transport that it would be a useful thing, as indeed it has been, to put into the Act a provision that, on a charge of manslaughter, a jury could find a defendant guilty of dangerous driving. I agree that it is illogical; and it has worked illogically. But it did at least give

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the court a chance, if the jury should convict of dangerous driving, of dealing with the offender's licence and of disqualifying him for a considerable period. But of course the result has been this—we foresaw it, but we did not see any way out of it at the time—that it is extremely difficult to sum up these cases satisfactorily to juries. You first have to consider them and direct the jury upon the degree of negligence which will justify them in returning a verdict of guilty of manslaughter. You may use what phrases or classes of words you like, but it is very difficult for juries, who are ordinary men from the street, the farm of the factory, to understand the niceties of these things. One can only say to them, "You must be satisfied that if you had seen that accident yourself you would say, 'That man deserves punishment'." That is one of the tests one can put to them.
They have then to be told that the Statute allows them to find the man guilty only of dangerous driving although he caused a death. Thus the jury may see the degree. I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, on that point; it is illogical. If the jury convict at all, they will convict of dangerous driving. It is the rarest thing to get a conviction for manslaughter in motoring cases, however gross, in these days. Very often a court can think themselves lucky to get a conviction of dangerous driving. At this time of the evening I will not trouble your Lordships with details of some of the cases which have been prepared or with abstracts of recent verdicts of "Not guilty" in cases in which one cannot see that there was any defence at all; but the juries will go on acquitting. As I see it, the merit of this Amendment and the great advantage of this clause will be that a simple issue can be put to the jury. I should not object if the noble Earl in charge of the Bill put in a clause at a later stage to say that if death is caused by a motorist by reckless or dangerous driving the motorist shall be indicted not for manslaughter but under this clause; but we will leave that for the moment. If there has been a death caused by dangerous driving, if it is found that the man was driving dangerously, then, if he has caused the death of a person there lies the offence; and one will not be taken up with nice distinctions between dangerous driving or driving
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sufficiently dangerous to justify a charge of manslaughter, or something else.
I wish to say a word with regard to subsection (4) of this proposed clause, because, with all due respect, that seems most objectionable. It is going to recreate the whole position that I hoped this clause was going to get rid of. It will give a jury the alternative that, although a man has been killed by a reckless driver, and although they think that there was reckless driving and an unfortunate man has been run into and killed, that jury has still the option of saying it is dangerous driving. In charging juries we shall then have to tell them of this alternative verdict, and of course they will take it in every case. I beg the noble Lord who is moving this Amendment, or Her Majesty's Government if they accept it, to abandon that subsection. I am afraid that the ground that the noble Lord gave for putting it forward is too subtle for me and may be too subtle for a jury. He said that the jury might find that although a man was driving dangerously he did not kill a person; but surely this charge will be put forward only where a man has been struck by a motor car and killed; therefore I do not see the point of subsection (4). I beg your Lordships not to pass that subsection, for if it is passed one gets back exactly to the mischief which I hoped was to be removed by this clause.
The noble Lord said that there was no mention in this clause of "driving under the influence of drink." The exact words of the Act are:
"… under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle."
I know there is some difference of opinion on the subject of how far one can give evidence to-day about drunkenness where the charge is merely one of dangerous driving. There are objections and I do not think there has been any decision; but I suggest that if this clause is accepted by your Lordships, on the Report stage the words relating to drunkenness should be included, because then there will be no doubt as to the ability to give evidence in connection with drunken motorists. In many cases of driving dangerously drunken drivers are involved. I have always considered it rather a reflection on the law as it stands that driving under the influence of drink is punishable only by a sentence of six months' imprisonment,

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while driving dangerously is punishable by a sentence of two years. I am glad to see that, in this Bill, the sentence for drunken driving is increased, because I submit that for people to drive motor cars under the influence of drink is almost as serious an offence as attempted murder. These people are mad dogs.
There is one unfortunate factor (and a particular reason why I should welcome this Bill) of which I was reminded when the noble Lord, Lord Winster, was dealing with Clause 1 of the Bill and saying that the proper remedy was increased sentences. The trouble is that one cannot get courts to pass proper sentences in these cases. One finds that in many cases magistrates pass ridiculously light sentences. I believe it is because they fear that if they pass severe sentences people will always elect to go for trial—and quarter sessions juries nearly always acquit. Perhaps that is going beyond the scope of the clause, but I commend it to your Lordships. I do not think it will make a fifth wheel in the coach, as the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, fears, for I am quite certain that if this becomes part of the law the proper authorities—the Director of Public Prosecutions and so forth—will not prosecute for manslaughter but for offences under this section, the penalty being adequate. I therefore commend the clause to your Lordships and hope it will be passed.
6.58 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I could not enter into this debate on the level on which it has been conducted, but I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, for stating a case so clearly, so concisely and with such restraint. I should like to thank also the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, for his contribution to our knowledge on this subject; and my thanks are also due to the Lord Chief Justice. Having listened to what has been said, I feel that one of the reasons why it is necessary for the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, to bring a subject like this before your Lordships is that mentioned by the Lord Chief Justice at the conclusion of his speech. I believe we have to do away with dangerous or reckless driving, and careless driving at the other end of the scale. When I was at the Ministry of Transport road safety was my especial responsibility, and it was always the burden of my complaint that, while Parliament in
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its wisdom rated all those offences very highly, the lowest courts of the land—the courts of summary jurisdiction—were so perverse as entirely to disagree with Parliament. There is the root of the trouble.
I remember discussing it with my noble and learned Leader when he was Lord Chancellor. He said I had no power. It has always been drilled into me that it is never the job of the Executive to dictate to the Judiciary, although of course the obverse occasionally happens. I remember going to the Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord who has just spoken, and I had long and anxious talks with him about the same subject. He very kindly volunteered to give up sitting in court for weeks on end in order to go round the country and, as he has disclosed to your Lordships this evening, address the magistrates of the country with a view to trying to give them a greater sense of responsibility. For what sense of responsibility is there, when on charges of careless driving, for which Parliament thinks there should be a maximum penalty of £50, the average fine inflicted is 50s.? On the whole, the level of fines in the lower courts in this country which the Home Office has disclosed is no deterrent at all. That is why I feel it is necessary for the noble Lord to bring this Amendment before your Lordships.
I want to ask the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor whether some way cannot be found of starting at the other end of the scale. That, in my view, is where the corrective should start. I have said this ad nauseam, and I repeat it: that if we in this country rest our social structure and our legal structure upon the basis that punishment should be a deterrent to wrongdoing, then punishment must be made a deterrent to wrongdoing. The fact that magistrates have taken a completely different view from Parliament and have inflicted fines amounting to only about one-fifth of the maximum has really been, in my view, the greatest single, factor in the failure to bring home that due care and attention should be exercised by everyone on the roads to-day. I am not qualified to enter into technical discussions such as those which have been carried on between three eminent lawyers here, but I want to emphasise this point, and I think

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this is the right place at which to do it. If the Lord Chancellor could direct his attention to that matter, not only at this moment in your Lordships' House but in the months to come—that is, to the problem of how to inculcate a greater sense of responsibility among the occupants of magisterial benches, so that their ideas of the severity of these crimes line up somehow with those of Parliament—a great deal of good will be done.
7.3 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sure that every one of your Lordships present to-day is grateful to my noble friend Lord Merthyr for bringing this matter before the Committee, and I should like to join with Lord Lucas of Chilworth in congratulating Lord Merthyr not only upon the content of his speech but also on the clarity of it. This is a difficult question, and I want to admit quite frankly that Her Majesty's Government were anxious to get guidance from your Lordships upon it. Therefore we are grateful to everyone who has spoken. But if, for the moment, one limits oneself to the debates on this Bill, I am sure that as we have dealt with this Amendment the thoughts of everyone here have gone back to the speech of the noble and learned Earl the Leader of the Opposition on the Second Reading, because, if he will allow me to say so, he then put graphically the difficulty which the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice, has mentioned today—the difficulty of the judge in endeavouring to sum up in one of these cases at the present time.
I have tried to carry out an analysis in this connection, and if one searches the reports and the books, one can certainly get six categories of negligence. I do not know whether they are exhaustive or whether, perhaps, someone with greater learning and powers of research could get more. There is the negligence necessary for manslaughter, the negligence necessary for wanton driving, the negligence necessary for dangerous driving, the negligence necessary for reckless driving, the negligence necessary for driving without due care and attention, and the negligence necessary to found a civil action—that is six categories. It is a terrible problem for anyone, however careful and experienced a judge may be, to have to try and
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instruct twelve laymen on that problem in the course of one short case.
I feel it is right that we should try to deal with the problem, and I think the real basis of it is that when you have these different legal degrees of negligence, then the verdict you get from the jury is bound to be a "hit or miss" one, however careful the judge is; and one gets into the difficulties of which we have heard to-night. The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, has spoken of a difficulty which is an interesting one and a fundamental one in penal philosophy but not, of course, a new one. It is one of the aspects of any theory of punishment that you have to consider whether or not the element of the results of the act comes into play to affect the punishment—you can call it vindication or anything else you like. But the common sense of the developers of the Common Law in this country has always led them to recognise this. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice took the difference between murder and attempted murder. One could take the difference between wounding with intent and murder. It is clear that wounding with intent calls for a different sentence. One might take the case of assault where death results, which is manslaughter and attracts a very different penalty.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, has expressed his doubts, and those doubts have, of course, affected every penal thinker and penal reformer. But, in the end, no one has been able to translate those doubts into a workable penal system. Results must be taken into account if the penalties are going to have the effects which it is desirable they should have. I know that the noble Viscount will not think I am dealing in any way consciously superficially with his argument. I am trying to meet it because I know the sincerity with which he believes it, as well as the force with which he expresses it. That is one difficulty I have always seen in this matter. The other is one which is not limited to the profession to which I have the honour to belong. May I put this to your Lordships. My right honourable friend, the Minister of Transport, who is responsible for this Bill, has tried—whether he has succeeded or not is a different matter, but his motive has been to try—to keep a balance in this Bill between the motorist and the pedestrian,

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and not to weight its provisions too much against one or the other. I was anxious and interested to know what would be the reactions in the Committee to this suggestion from that point of view, entirely outside the legal problem: whether your Lordships might think this provision would weight the balance too much against the motorist. So far as I can judge, not only from the speeches, but from their reception in this House, that feeling has been absent. I think I am entitled to assume that, and I intend, as at present advised, to act on that basis.
Those were the two a priori points connected with the matter. May I pass to some practical matters that have been raised? My noble friend Lord Hailsham raised the difficulty as to how this provision would work out in practice. As I see it, it would work out in this way. In the ordinary case where death has been caused by the driving of a vehicle, and there is evidence that that driving was reckless or dangerous, the Director of Public Prosecutions would proceed under this section. He would not indict for manslaughter, unless the case was an exceptional one. Again, for the sake of ease, let me give the sort of case that is present to your Lordships' minds, of a jewel thief who has stolen the car and is driving it along a crowded roadway at 60 miles an hour and takes no notice of the police who try to stop him but drives into them. That is next door to murder, and in these cases I assume that the Director of Public Prosecutions will still prosecute for manslaughter; but in the ordinary case he will use this clause. I think that would be a practical and realisable method of procedure. I confess that I had not considered the—I will not say refinement, but the amendment put forward: that it might be possible to introduce some prohibition against prosecution for manslaughter in some cases. Frankly, I should like to consider that. I think it is an interesting suggestion, and I should like to go into it further.
I have also listened with great attention to the view of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice against subsection (4)—that is, the possibility of having a verdict of dangerous driving only. I understood that my noble friend Lord Merthyr intended it to meet the case where the view of the cause of the accident taken by the police was not
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shared by the jury; that is, where the police alleged that the death had been caused by the accident, but the jury took the view that the police were wrong in making that allegation and believed that, though the dangerous driving had not in fact caused the death, the driving was dangerous. I am not going to weary your Lordships with this point, and my noble and learned friends are all too conscious of the years spent in an almost metaphysical pursuit of theory of the causation by our courts in "running down" cases some twenty-five years ago. But again I should like to have a look at the point. I think that naturally, after what the Lord Chief Justice has said, it is one which merits consideration, and I am sure that my noble friend, Lord Merthyr, will agree.
In view of these points, I should like your Lordships to allow me to assume from this debate that you are in general support of the principle of this Amendment; that is, of constituting this new offence and using it in the manner which I have attempted to describe. On that basis I will consider, with such assistance as I can command, the points that have been raised, and I may also have a look at the coroners' provisions, which are slightly difficult. I should like to look into those matters again in the light of the debate, and I undertake to bring back on Report a clause which I think will express the view of the Committee. I hope I have interpreted the view of the Committee correctly, and that, on my undertaking to bring forward another clause for the consideration of the House when we come to the Report stage, my noble friend Lord Merthyr will withdraw this clause.
LORD MERTHYR: I need only refer to the very last words which fell from the noble and learned Viscount, and on that undertaking I certainly do not wish to press this clause this evening. The noble and learned Viscount has been good enough to say—and I thank him for it—that he will give serious consideration to this clause and to the detailed wording of it. I hope that I may take it from him that, if the wording can be improved satisfactorily, he will look favourably upon the principle of the clause at another opportunity—without, of course, giving

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me any promise on that score tonight. I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
House resumed.

  TRAFFIC AND ACCIDENT STATISTICS
  TRAFFIC AND ACCIDENT STATISTICS