Sitting of 6 December 1955

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  MONMOUTHSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (by Order)
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Thursday.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Prison Service (Pensions)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the financial hardships suffered by pensioners who served in the Prison Service in Scotland owing to the disparities between their pensions and the present high cost of living; what representations he has received on their behalf from the Civil Service Pensioners Alliance (Scottish Branch); and if he will now specify the steps he is taking to remove the grievances of which they complain.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): As public service pensioners these pensioners are included in the review referred to by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary on 27th October.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Chancellor agree that, in the case of public servants, not to approximate their pay to the rising cost of living amounts to something in the nature of breach of contract and fraud? Will he try to approximate their pay to the rising cost of living?
    Mr. Butler: I must answer the Question on the Order Paper. Fortunately I was able to give the hon. and learned Gentleman a favourable answer. If there is any further aspect which he wishes to raise, I hope he will write to me about it.
    Mr. Hoy: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when these pensioners obtain employment to supplement their pension they receive a corresponding cut in the pension paid to them? Would he look at that aspect of the matter?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I am aware of these problems and I will certainly take into consideration the point raised by the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Hoy).

    Incomes (Increases)
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the percentage increase of wages since 1946 and what has been the percentage increase in income derived from rent, dividends and interest since 1946.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Between 1946 and 1954 wages increased by 89 per cent. and personal receipts of rent, dividends and interest by 30 per cent. Figures are not yet available for 1955.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Lewis.
    Mr. McKay: On a point of order. This is a rather important Question, Mr. Speaker, on which I should like to put a supplementary question.
    Mr. Speaker: I had called the next Question.

    Local Authorities (Loans)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as from the commencement of the next financial year, he will make facilities available to local authorities for drawing interest-free loans from the Treasury for housing purposes, up to a specified annual total.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir.
    Mr. Lewis: If the Chancellor will not agree to the suggestion contained in the Question to make facilities generally available, will he favourably give consideration to it in respect of bomb-damaged cities and boroughs, because of their peculiar position? Will he consider providing the facilities at least for a period of time, until they have got over their bomb-damage troubles?
    Mr. Butler: I realise that this is a particular problem but I am afraid that I cannot add to my Answer. If the hon.

    169
    Gentleman wants an answer on that point he had better put down a specific Question.
    Mr. Draysonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the alterations in the method of local government borrowing, he will introduce legislation to confer trustee status on loans issued by urban and rural district councils.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Some of these authorities already have trustee status for their loans. Proposals to extend it to all of them were announced on 27th July by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The proposals have since been agreed with representatives of the local authorities and will be the subject of legislation when opportunity offers.
    Mr. Drayson: Can my right hon. Friend say how soon he thinks this legislation will be introduced? Can he name the date? That would help the local authorities.
    Mr. Butler: No, but I will see that the attention of the Leader of the House is drawn to the Question of my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Hannanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the response to Glasgow Corporation's recent application for a loan of £5 million in the open market he will reconsider his policy and restore freedom to local authorities to borrow through the medium of the Public Works Loan Board.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that 87 per cent of the Glasgow Corporation's latest loan has been left with the underwriters and that this will have an adverse effect on future attempts by local authorities to raise money on the open market, if he will now revise his policy and grant greater facility for loans to be granted from the Public Works Loan Board.
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the failure of the recent Glasgow Corporation loan, he will reconsider his policy on local authority borrowing.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The Answer is "No, Sir."
    Mr. Hannan: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that his Answer will be received with the greatest resentment by local authorities throughout the country? Is he further aware that the Glasgow local authority has been forced into the market for a loan, in accordance with a statement made by the Chancellor himself in his Budget speech, and that when Glasgow is joined by other local authorities the interest charge on money is likely to soar? Is that not evidenced by the statement made today that Liverpool local authority is offering stock at 97 whereas Glasgow offered it at 98½, and is not the Chancellor assisting speculators to rig the market?
    Mr. Butler: That was the first loan, and we know that in the final stage it was commercially underwritten by the market. I do not think that the Corporation of Glasgow will suffer. We shall learn from the experience of that loan, and I trust that the next one, namely the Liverpool loan, will have more success.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Chancellor aware that in this sense he has become the Santa Claus of the money changers? Does he realise that, while he is the hero of the sharks of the Stock Exchange and the Shylocks of the City, he has come to be known as No. 1 enemy of local authorities?
    Mr. Butler: I realise that there has been a marked change in the method of financing local authorities, and that this was done on purpose, as part of Government policy. Further, I realise that I am not quite so popular with some of the gentlemen in the City as the hon. Gentleman imagines.
    Mr. J. Henderson: Is the Chancellor not aware of the fact that the real reason for the financial flop of the City of Glasgow £5 million loan was the inefficiency of the Socialist administration, and is it not akin to the situation in which the nation found itself when the Socialist party left office?
    Mr. Jenkins: Is the Chancellor really satisfied about a position in which a local authority of the size and standing of Glasgow cannot borrow at a yield of £4 17s. per cent., and in which other local authorities are being forced to offer a longer term and a rather higher rate of interest, and thus saddle themselves with

    171
    the very high interest charges which his present policy puts upon them for an even longer period than Glasgow had to accept?
    Mr. Butler: I realise the difficulties this involves for local authorities, and I am very sympathetic to them. However, in the national interest, from the point of view of the below-the-line Budget, in my view it was essential to make a change in the method of financing local authorities.
    Mr. E. Fletcher: Does not the Chancellor realise that this humiliating experience of the Glasgow Corporation will make it infinitely more difficult for smaller local authorities to borrow, except at exorbitant rates of interest which, in turn, will make it impossible for them to carry out works of local importance?
    Mr. Butler: I do not agree that this was a humiliating experience. Glasgow happened to be the pioneer, and pioneers sometimes have rather a difficult time.
    Mr. Jay: Though we all realise the difficulties, can the Chancellor tell us what are the advantages of this procedure?
    Mr. Butler: I outlined them in my original Budget statement.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, Mr. Speaker, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has considered the letter on rates of interest for public loans from the Town Clerk of Maybole forwarded to him by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire; and what action he will take in the matter.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Yes, Sir; but I regret that I cannot agree to the town clerk's suggestion.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the town council requires the money for a sewerage scheme? Is he now proposing to tax sanitation and make it more difficult for local authorities to improve public health in their areas?
    Mr. Butler: No, Sir; I am not proposing to tax sanitation. No doubt the local authority will be able to get its money in one of the ways suggested.

    Civil Service (Royal Commission's Report)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of Exchequer whether he will state the Government's policy with regard to the recent Report on Civil Service salaries.
    Mr. Dainesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action the Government intend to take on the Report of the Commission on Civil Service salaries.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: This detailed and careful Report requires close study and the Government are not yet in a position to form views on it. The recommendations will need to be discussed on the National Whitley Council. There has already been a preliminary exchange of views between the two sides of that Council about the machinery for dealing with the questions raised.
    Mr. Lewis: Has the Chancellor's attention been drawn to the statement of the General Secretary of the Institution of Professional Civil Servants to the effect that the Institution strongly objects to the fact that civil servants with lower incomes will get hardly anything out of the Report whilst those getting rather heavy incomes, or excessive incomes, will do very well out of it? Will he bear in mind the point of view of that organisation on this matter?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I have observed that, but I think the important thing is to follow the ordinary procedure and wait for the National Whitley Council to review the Report.
    Mr. Daines: Does not the Chancellor consider that this Report brings to the forefront the question of Ministerial salaries, and particularly the salaries of junior Ministers? How much longer are we to wait before the Government accept their responsibilities, at least towards the latter?
    Mr. Butler: That raises a wider question than that on the Order Paper. I should like to take the opportunity of expressing my gratitude to the members of the Royal Commission for the work which they have performed.

    Investment (Interest and Market Value)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) the estimated total national investment carrying a fixed

    173
    rate of interest, such as bank deposits, national savings investments and building society deposits, which have no Stock Exchange quotation, and which cannot show an increase in nominal value;
    (2) the total nominal capital of all securities quoted on the London Stock Exchange; how much is fixed-interest-bearing capital and equity capital, respectively; and the average rise or fall in the market value of each group, respectively, since 1924.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Osborne.
    Mr. Osborne: I cannot ask supplementary questions on information that is not given.
    Following is the reply:
    No figures are available for the total national investment carrying a fixed rate of interest. So far as the particular categories mentioned in Question No. 5 are concerned, the following figures are available for the end of 1954:

    £ million.

    Deposit and other accounts (excluding current accounts) of London clearing banks

    2,456

    Building society shares and deposits

    1,757

    National Savings

    6,052

    The total nominal capital of all securities quoted on the Stock Exchange at 31st March, 1955, was £27,749 million, of which £4,170 million was ordinary capital of companies; the rest, £23,579 million, included central and local government securities, securities of public corporations, and the debenture and preference capital of companies.
    As regards the average rise or fall in market value since 1924, for ordinary capital some indication is given by the equity share price index published in the London and Cambridge Bulletin, which rose by 185 per cent. between 1924 and July, 1955. Reference may also be made to the Investors Chronicle monthly securities indices, which give the following figures:

    (31st December, 1923=100)

    24th November, 1955.

    Gilt-edged

    …

    98·7

    Industrial fixed interest

    …

    102·0

    Industrials

    …

    240·2

    £ Sterling (Value)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the purchasing power of the £ today, approximately, as compared with 20s. in 1924.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Taking the internal purchasing power of the £ as 20s. in 1924, it is estimated that the corresponding figure for October, 1955, is 8s. 8d. This estimate is based on the Cost of Living Index from 1924 to 1938, the consumer price index from 1938 to 1954, and the Interim Index of Retail Prices thereafter.
    Mr. Osborne: Does this 8s. 8d., coupled with the figures I shall receive in answer to Questions Nos. 5 and 6, show that the investing public, the savers of the nation as a whole, over the last thirty years have lost a great deal of money through inflation, instead of gaining?
    Mr. Butler: Inflation never helps savers or those on fixed incomes. That is precisely why we are attacking inflation, with such success.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Ignoring that last joke by the Chancellor, may I ask whether he saw an article in the Manchester Guardian last week showing that anyone who purchased a representative £1 million worth of equity shares in 1919 would find that those same shares were worth £27 million at the present time?
    Mr. Butler: I have not seen that instance; perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will bring it to my notice. Usually we get complaints from the other side of the House about people making gross profits. On this occasion, the right hon. Gentleman is complaining about losses.
    Mr. H. Wilson
    Mr. Nabarro: Is not a very satisfactory hedge against all inflationary tendencies greater investment in tax-free National Savings Certificates?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Wilson: Since, obviously, the right hon. Gentleman misheard what I said, may I ask whether he is aware that the figures in the Manchester Guardian, which related to the Financial Times index of securities, showed an increase of from £1 million to nearly £27 million in equity shares?
    Mr. Butler: I did mishear. In that case, will the right hon. Gentleman kindly let me see the figures?
    Mr. Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, assuming the purchasing power of the £ in March, 1946, to be equal to 20s., what was the value of the £ in March, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, and in November, 1955.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I will, with permission, circulate the reply, which contains a number of figures, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Holt: What point does the Chancellor expect the value of the £ to have reached by November, 1956?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Following is the reply:
    Taking the internal purchasing power of the £ as 20s. in 1946, it is estimated that the corresponding figures for March, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, and for October, 1955, are:
    16s. 6d., 15s. 11d., 14s. 8d., 14s. 2d., 14s. 0d., 13s. 7d., and 13s. 1d.
    The basis of this estimate is as follows. Figures were calculated in the first place for the calendar years 1946–54 by using the Consumer Price Index. The Interim Index of Retail Prices was then used as a link to provide figures for March of each year and for October, 1955. No monthly figures on a comparable basis can be calculated for 1946; the average for that year has been used as a base.

    Accounting (Flow of Funds System)
    Mr. D. Priceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider adopting as an additional tool of economic analysis the flow of funds system which has been recently introduced into the United States of America by the Federal Reserve Board, and details of which have been sent to him.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: My hon. Friend is no doubt aware that some features of this method of analysis are already in the National Income Blue Book, 1955—e.g. Tables 26, 27, 34, 38, 41, 45—and the Economic Survey, 1955—e.g. Table 21. I will consider whether further progress can be made in this direction.
    Mr. Price: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the advantages to him in managing the monetary credit policy of the country if he is able to have the more detailed information on the flow of credit and funds between various sectors of the economy that exists in this flow of funds system of accounting?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. That is precisely why I said that we will consider whether further progress can be made in this direction.

    Deferred Annuities
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in furtherance of the policy of siphoning off existing purchasing power, he will consider the issuing of pension bonds, redeemable at retiring age in annuity form, as an attractive means of encouraging savings.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for this suggestion, but I would point out that the life offices and friendly societies issue deferred annuities. I have no reason to believe that the facilities which they offer are inadequate.
    Dr. Johnson: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I, however, ask him to keep this idea in view as a voluntary supplement to the various compulsory measures of saving?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, certainly. There is still power, I suppose, for the Government to take action of this sort, but I consider that the possibilities for the life offices and friendly societies are sufficient to meet the present problem.
    Mr. Jay: Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer think that his policy of siphoning off purchasing power and encouraging savings is being assisted by commercial television?

    Capital Investment (Electricity and Roads)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the formation of gross fixed capital of £1,059,000,000 in electricity, compared with £60 million on the construction of roads in the years 1948 to 1954, he is satisfied that a proper balance of priorities between these two important industries is being kept; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am, of course, aware that we have had to press on with electricity and to go much more slowly with roads. I cannot accept that a proper balance of priorities is not being kept. Expenditure on roads will rise substantially under the programme already announced.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Looking at the picture broadly, does it not appear that we have been going rather too fast in electricity over the last six years?
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Not fast enough.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Would my right hon. Friend agree that spending about £200 million a year in electricity, which is already a heavily-loaded section of the engineering industry, tends to add to inflationary pressure?
    Mr. Butler: Of course, we are watching the plans of all the nationalised industries in respect of the possible effect upon inflation. But we have needed this electrical development to match our industrial expansion, which has been so marked under the present Administration.
    Mr. Woodburn: Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind that unless the worker gets more power behind his elbow in the form of electricity and energy, the country will not be able to survive and keep its population, however good its roads may be?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.

    Tobacco Tokens (Personal Case)
    Mr. Patonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he proposes to do to rectify the anomaly by which a blind man of Norwich in receipt of National Assistance, whose particulars have been sent to him, has been deprived of his tobacco tokens.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret that when, as in this case, a pensioner loses his title to the non-contributory old-age pension, he necessarily ceases to be entitled to tobacco tokens. But there may be an alternative approach in this case, and I am writing to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Paton: May I thank the Chancellor for the hope of effective action being taken in this case?

    Civil Service Pensioners (Employment Rules)
    Miss Burtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by how much the pension of a retired civil servant is abated when he takes up remunerative employment outside the Civil Service on retirement.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The pension is not abated.
    Miss Burton: While not suggesting that the pension should be abated, may I ask on what grounds of equity the Chancellor defends the position that an old-age pensioner who retires on the present miserable pittance is not allowed to earn more than £2 a week without having that pension cut?
    Mr. Butler: The cases are not absolutely analogous. I am simply giving the rules which apply to the Civil Service pensioner employed by a new employer outside the public sector.

    National Land Fund
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to be in a position to make a statement on the future of the National Land Fund.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the Chancellor aware that it is particularly disappointing, in view of his well-known interest in the arts and in amenity considerations, that he has not been able to make better use of this Fund? Can he at least confirm that the matter is still under consideration?
    Mr. Butler: Certainly, it is a matter which causes us all a great deal of interest, and, of course, it does look a very tempting Fund.

    Overseas Trading Profits (Taxation)
    Mr Fisherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, as an incentive to the establishment of secondary industries in the British West Indies, he will grant a five-year tax holiday to British firms opening factories in the Caribbean in respect of profits made out there during that period.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am considering the general question of the taxation of overseas trading profits in the light of the Royal Commission's recommendations. I cannot anticipate the outcome, but the point which my hon. Friend has in mind will not be overlooked.
    Mr. Fisher: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind, when considering this matter, that West Indian Governments give this tax concession to encourage the secondary industries that are so desperately needed out there, but that Her Majesty's Treasury nullifies the whole effect of the incentive value by imposing on firms here the tax on their West Indian profits? Does this really make sense, if we want the West Indies to help to diversify their almost completely agricultural economy?
    Mr. Butler: I am aware of what is known technically as frustration, which is, in fact, frustration in fact. I am, therefore, re-examining this whole question in the light of the Royal Commission's recommendations.
    Captain Soames: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, as he has not given this concession, the result is that a lot of dollar capital is flowing into the Caribbean and much sterling capital that would like to go there is prevented from so doing by the Treasury's policy of not allowing some concession to match the concession in the tax policy given by many islands in the Caribbean?
    Mr. Butler: I am aware of the problem but there is a great deal of difference of opinion about the solution of the difficulty. However, I have given an undertaking that the matter is under urgent consideration.
    Mr. Bence: Will the Chancellor also consider, to assist the idea of a property-owning democracy, giving a tax concession to all people who want to buy their own homes?

    Superannuation Funds (Tax Remissions)
    Mr. J. Patonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total cost to the Exchequer of tax remissions allowed in respect of payments made in the financial year 1954–55 to superannuation funds by business firms and by their employees, respectively.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The estimated cost was between £60 million and £70 million, and between £10 million and £15 million, respectively.
    Mr. Paton: Does not that show that these superannuation schemes, desirable in principle as they are, are to a very considerable extent sustained by public taxation, and that about two-thirds of all employed persons are subscribing through taxation to special pension arrangements for one-third of the employed population?
    Mr. Butler: Of course, this issue was raised before the Phillips Committee, and I do not think that I should like to comment in detail on the hon. Member's point on this matter.

    Entertainments Duty
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that certain restaurants and night clubs are advertising cabaret shows of two hours' duration on which no Entertainments Duty is payable; and, in view of the anomalies which this situation creates, whether he will now extend this tax exemption to theatres and music halls.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Cabaret shows are not, as such, exempt from Entertainments Duty, but if there is no payment for admission to an entertainment, whether at a restaurant or elsewhere, no liability to duty arises. I do not regard this as a ground for the repeal of the duty on theatres and music halls.
    Mr. Jeger: Is the Chancellor not aware that this is really evasion of the law which at present applies to music halls and theatres? Is he aware that the two hours' cabaret entertainment, which is about the normal length of an entertainment in a music hall, is given for high charges at restaurants without the payment of Entertainments Duty? Will he not look at the question again and remove the anomaly by exempting live entertainment in music halls and theatres from tax?
    Mr. Butler: I look at the problem more than I look at cabarets, and I find it to be a very difficult one indeed to which to give a simple answer. The point is that where there is no payment for admission to an entertainment, whether at a restaurant or elsewhere, no

    181
    liability to duty arises, and I see some difficulty in altering the law on that point, but I will certainly bear it in mind.
    Mr. Robens: Would it not be the case that part of the charge for the meal must include some part of the cost of the entertainment provided?
    Mr. Butler: That is precisely one of the facts which my officers find it most difficult to ascertain.

    Works of Art (Acquisition)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will extend to provincial art galleries the facilities now offered to national institutions to acquire works of art which might otherwise be exported and which it is considered to be in the public interest to retain in this country.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The terms of reference of the Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art extend to provincial museums and galleries as well as to the national institutions. In the period covered by its recent Report, only three out of seven cases considered by the Committee were referred by national institutions; and in each of the other four cases the Committee upheld an objection by a provincial institution to the grant of an export licence.
    Mrs. White: Did the Treasury make any contribution towards the purchases in question? If so, could we be given the details, perhaps in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Mr. Butler: I should have to look to see exactly what occurred. I do not think I could give an affirmative answer to that question without further examination.

    Mine Workers' Association (Budget Protest)
    Mr. Boardmanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the nature of the reply sent to the Tyldesley and Astley Miners' Association, representing 4,800 mine workers, following their protest against certain of the Budget proposals.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The Association's telegram was acknowledged and I took note of their views.
    Mr. Boardman: While no one would expect that the Chancellor would start a correspondence course with all those
    182
    people who dislike his policies, may I ask whether he appreciates that this is one of the largest trade union branches in the Lancashire coal fields, and that this was no flippant protest? Would it not be very much better, in a case like this, if, instead of a formal acknowledgment, a reasoned reply were sent, without adding to the bad policy?
    Mr. Butler: I certainly welcome the opportunity afforded by this Question to assure the members, who number about 4,800 mine workers, that I did take note of their views, and I hope that they will understand my difficulty in answering the very many communications I receive, many of them of a most favourable character.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is not the proper channel of communication that through the Member of Parliament, and is not the implication here that those mine workers are dissatisfied with their Member of Parliament?
    Mr. Allaun: Is the Chancellor aware that the Budget imposes Purchase Tax on working-men's cloth caps and removes it from bowlers? What does the Chancellor think the miners, dockers and engineers will have to say about that?
    Mr. Butler: That is a rather technical point which is mixed up with the abolition of the D Scheme. In the old days the cloth cap had a D, and the bowler did not.
    Mr. Jay: Can the Chancellor tell us whether this present revelation about his Budget is correct?
    Mr. Butler: I have just said that the cloth cap had a D, and so certain caps escaped Purchase Tax, whereas bowlers did not.

    Valuation Officers, Inland Revenue (Promotion)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that a number of valuation assistants employed on rating valuers' duties in the valuation office of Inland Revenue, have not been promoted to Valuer, Class III, whereas younger, less senior and, in some cases, less qualified, officers have received this promotion and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Members' Question on this subject on 26th July. 1955.
    Mr. Collins: Is the Chancellor aware that that reply was "No"? Will he now say whether that answer meant, "No, the question is not true," or "It is true, but I do not intend to do anything about it?" Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these men are doing an extremely valuable and responsible job? Will he not consider the matter again to see that they get the rate of pay and rank for the job?
    Mr. Butler: I think that had better be dealt with through the normal departmental promotion procedure.

    Women Civil Servants (Pensions)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the hardship suffered by retiring women civil servants whose pensions were reckoned on unequal salaries, and in view of the recent gradual introduction of equal pay in the public services, he will, in the current review of the Pensions (Increase) Acts, reassess the pensions of such women as if they had been receiving equal pay at the time of their retirement.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir. Both sides of the Civil Service National Whitley Council accepted with regret that this was not practicable in respect of women retiring during the period of the gradual implementation of equal pay. Still less is it practicable for women who retired earlier.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the Chancellor not aware that the Chorley Report dealing with the salaries of the higher-grade civil servants recommended that their pensions should be based on a notional salary, and if it is possible to do that for the higher grades, why is it not for the lower grades?
    Mr. Butler: Alas, both sides agreed it was impossible. I have a copy of their printed Report in my hand.

    Defence Orders
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the approximate amount spent annually on wages, salaries, and allowances of all those engaged in industries working wholly or mainly to Government defence orders.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret that the information is not available.

    Income Tax (Education Fees)
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has yet been able to give consideration to the question of allowing Income Tax relief to those parents who pay tuition fees at independent schools and colleges; and what decision he has arrived at.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The Answer to the first part is that this question has been considered. I cannot anticipate the next Budget.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Can my right hon. Friend say what would be the cost to the Exchequer and the extra number of teachers and schools required if all these people sent their children to the other schools? Do they not perform a great public service by paying for the education of their children, always at great personal sacrifice, and do they not deserve some such help as this in doing so?
    Mr. Butler: I have not the statistics of what the swelling in the school population would be if all people who send their children to private schools were to send them to the general schools of the country. I agree that a certain degree of sacrifice is involved, and I endeavoured in the last Budget to give some child relief, which, I think, must have been of some help.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Since it is rather early in the financial year for the Chancellor to be anticipating the next Budget, are we to assume from his remarks that we are to expect another supplementary Budget before the normal Budget next April?
    Mr. Butler: I think we have had enough Budgets for the time being.

    Iron, Steel and Coal (Imports)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what effect upon the United Kingdom balance of payments iron, steel, metalliferous scrap and coal imports have had during 1955, compared with 1954; the aggregate sums involved in each of the years concerned; and what fiscal, and other steps he proposes to take to minimise the impact of these imports

    185
    upon the national economy during 1956, notably in the industrial consumption of coal.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret I can only give trade figures. Imports c.i.f. of iron and steel, metalliferous scrap and coal amounted in aggregate to just over £142 million in January to September, 1955, as against £42 million in the corresponding period of 1954, an increase of some £100 million. Recent measures are designed to reduce the burden of such imports on the balance of payments in 1956. In addition, as has already been announced, we shall export a smaller amount of coal in 1956; and I am being supported by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power by the steps he is taking to secure economy in the use of coal by industry, particularly during the winter months.
    Mr. Nabarro: As large-scale coal imports are now evidently a permanent feature of our national economy, would my right hon. Friend not reconsider what has been urged upon him by both sides of the House in successive Finance Bill debates during the last few years, namely, offering some fiscal incentive for much greater fuel economy both in the home and in industry?
    Mr. Butler: That is a matter which I certainly discuss from time to time with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Fuel and Power.

    Nationalised Industries (Investment Programmes)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now make a statement of the results achieved in reducing and deferring certain capital expenditure of an inessential character, by the nationalised industries, and the sums involved, in accordance with the economic and financial policy announced in July, 1955.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Not yet, Sir; their investment programmes are now being reviewed.
    Mr. Nabarro: Yes, but is not my right hon. Friend aware that I have been trying to get some information about this subject for four months? Is he aware that, as the capital investment programme of the nationalised industries is a great deal
    186
    larger than that of the local authorities, and we have had full information about the local authorities, it is propitious, at least before Christmas, that there should be detailed answers about the capital investment programmes of the nationalised industries?
    Mr. Butler: It depends upon whether we have finished examining their investment programmes, which are of great importance to the nation.

    Canadian and United States Loans (Repayments)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what sums will be required on 31st December next for capital and interest payments on the Canadian and United States loans; what sums including interest will have been paid in aggregate 1951–1955 inclusive, against these loans; and what discussions and negotiations have taken place with a view to securing repayment in sterling.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Twenty-two and a half million dollars will be required for the interest and 15·2 million dollars for the principal on the Canadian loan, and 87 million dollars for the interest and 55·4 million dollars for the principal on the United States loans. The total payments made since 1951 will then amount to 188·5 million dollars for interest and principal on the Canadian loan, and 727·4 million dollars for interest and principal on the United States loans.
    The joint statement regarding the settlement of Lend-Lease, etc.—Cmd. 6708, as amended by Cmd. 8586—provides that certain limited payments may be made to the United States Government in £ sterling at their request and credited against the dollar payments due under the settlement. No discussion or negotiation on rates of interest has taken place since the conclusion of the Agreements relating to these loans.
    Mr. Nabarro: In consideration of the fact that the principle is now evidently accepted by both the United States and Canada of accepting at least part payment in sterling, can my right hon. Friend say whether negotiations could not be opened with a view to future American and Canadian loan repayments being made, at least in part, in sterling as in the case of commodities?
    Mr. Butler: This raises very big issues, but all that I can do is to indicate to my hon. Friend that the point which he has made will be noted.

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what reply he has made to the letter from the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation, dated 29th November, 1955, on the subject of the effects of Purchase Tax on the pottery industry.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am considering these representations and will write to them shortly.
    Mr. Swingler: is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this letter comes from a source not politically hostile to him, but it contains devastating replies to Treasury arguments in favour of a Purchase Tax on pottery? In considering it, will he not repent, confess his error and wipe away the tax?
    Mr. Butler: The answer to that, briefly, regret, is "No, Sir."
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on future Government policy relating to the Purchase Tax.
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on his future policy in regard to indirect taxation on consumer goods.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have nothing to add to what I said on this subject during the Committee stage, namely that we have no ready-made scheme for a general sales tax. Hon. Members would be very unwise to underestimate the complexity and difficulty of introducing any such tax.
    Mr. Jay: Does the Chancellor think it either wise or proper that his intentions about his next Budget, whenever that will be, should be made known by way of casual hints and leaks at private meetings upstairs?
    Mr. Butler: I do not know what the right hon. Member is referring to. I made a statement in Committee which exactly corresponds with the statement that I have made here and which represents my view.
    Mr. Jay: How does the right hon. Gentleman explain the fact that we had inspired statements in the Press last week that there was to be a sales tax, and a few days later inspired statements that there was not to be one? Could the right hon. Gentleman not clear the whole matter up by informing us now that he has no intention of instituting a sales tax?
    Mr. Butler: The matter is set out absolutely clearly in the reply which I have just given. It corresponds with what I said in Committee, and no doubt will say during the Report stage. As for the Press, this is a free country and there is a free Press, and, as far as I am concerned, the Press can say what it likes.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Why is the Chancellor so coy about his intentions? If he is not going to introduce it in his next Budget, why not say so now? It would obviate a great deal of unnecessary disturbance and speculation.
    Mr. Butler: That is precisely the reason for the reply which I gave to the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay).
    Mr. E. Fletcher: Does the Chancellor not realise that the contradictory statements which he is making are very disturbing to the whole of the retail trade and the public? Does he not think it is his duty to make a clear pronouncement as to whether he intends to introduce a sales tax in the next Budget?
    Mr. Butler: I cannot add to what I have already stated, and it would be wise for hon. and right hon. Members to pay attention to what I have said in Committee and this afternoon.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Whilst we are always ready to pay attention to what the Chancellor says in Committee, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is the second time in a month that an apparently concerted Press story has appeared—all on the same morning—about the Chancellor's tax intentions? Is he aware that the other story, relating to rumours that he might take off the kitchen taxes, caused even more disturbance to trade? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that any statement, including any hints on this question, will be given to the House of Commons and not at private conferences with the Press and elsewhere?
    Mr. Butler: All that I have had to say on taxes has been said in Committee. I have nothing to add to the many answers that I gave during the five-day discussions on the Purchase Tax Resolutions and during the Budget discussions, and I see no reason for the right hon. Member's statements.
    Mr. Grimondasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the change in the value of money, he will raise the figure of £500 worth of output under which Purchase Tax is not payable in respect of various craft productions.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I will bear this point in mind, though there would be great difficulty in raising the present limit. It already gives rise to complaints of unfair competition which are difficult to rebut.
    Mr. Grimond: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the limit was originally fixed at £2,000, and that this suggestion of an increase over £500 seems to be the easiest way of saving some of the small craft industries from virtual extinction? I cannot believe that the fall in the value of money would make that difference.
    Mr. Butler: I read and listened to the speech of the hon. Member on this subject in the debates on the Finance Bill. As I say, I will bear this point in mind, but I cannot give any undertaking.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Will my right hon. Friend realise that the sum of £500 is quite unrealistic, particularly for the small producers in the rural areas, who collectively play an important part in the rural economy of the remote areas?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, I am aware of that anxiety.

    Private Expenditure
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what percentage he anticipates private expenditure will be reduced as a result of his recent Budget.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: In the Financial Statement estimates were given of the expected yield of the tax changes introduced in the Budget. These estimates give an indication of the direct effect on private purchasing power of the fiscal measures introduced by the Government. The
    190
    course of private expenditure will, however, be influenced directly and indirectly by the whole range of measures to regulate demand which the Government have introduced, including the policy of credit restriction.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Can my right hon. Friend say whether his policy is also directed to obtaining an equal or similar reduction in the amount of public expenditure as in private expenditure?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I made statements on the subject of public expenditure at the time.

    Business Profits (Taxation)
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he estimates would be the additional yield in a full year from Income Tax and Profits Tax on business profits at the rates prevailing in 1951–52, and without reintroduction of the initial allowance, over and above the estimated yield in a full year from the rates now proposed by him.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: It is estimated very approximately that the additional yield which would accrue from altering Income Tax and Profits Tax to their 1951–52 rates and withdrawing initial and investment allowances would be £220 million. This figure relates only to tax falling directly on the profits of companies and public corporations.
    Mr. Jay: Will the right hon. Gentleman then agree that he has remitted tax on the profits of companies amounting at least to over £200 million in the last four years?
    Mr. Butler: That is what I said, and I am very proud of it.

    United States and Canadian Securities (Holdings)
    Mr. Greenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the present value of United Kingdom investments in the United States of America and in Canada, respectively; and how this level of investment compares with that obtaining at the end of December, 1951.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: We have no means of assessing the market value of foreign investments; but the Bank of England estimate that at the end of 1953, the latest year for which figures are available, the

    191
    nominal capital value of the United Kingdom's holdings of known stock exchange securities in the United States amounted to £172 million and in Canada to £156 million. The holdings at the end of 1951 were £131 million and £157 million, respectively. Much of our new investment in both these countries is not effected through the purchase of securities, and is not reflected in these figures.
    Mr. Green: Can my right hon. Friend tell me whether these figures or any part of them are included in our gold and dollar reserves, as published monthly?
    Mr. Butler: I should want notice of that question. I will then give my hon. Friend an answer.

    New Towns (Development)
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent the Government policy of a slowing-down of investment programmes applies to new town development corporations.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Development of the new towns is to continue in step with the movement or expansion of industry in and around each of the towns.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the slowing down of the development in the new town of Glenrothes has nothing to do with the policy as announced in his Budget speech, and can he further say whether it was a pure coincidence that just five days after his Budget speech the Minister of State told the Fife County Council that house-building in Glenrothes would have to cease forthwith?
    Mr. Butler: I realise the importance which the hon. Gentleman attaches to this matter, being so closely associated with the district, and, with his permission, I should like to look into those facts and send him a reply.
    Mr. Woodburn: When he is doing this, would the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind that there has been great disturbance of mind caused amongst the miners whom we are trying to transfer to the new towns by the apprehension that these new towns might not develop as was anticipated? Also, would the right hon. Gentleman look into the question of whether there cannot be a re-creation of advance factories, because it seems that
    192
    is the only way in which new industries can be attracted to these new towns?
    Mr. Butler: I am not clear that the apprehensions of the right hon. Gentleman are well-founded, but I will certainly give him an assurance that we will look into them.

    Industrial and Commercial Building Projects
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what slackening there has been in the rate of initiation of industrial and commercial building projects since 26th October.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: It is too soon yet to say with any certainty what the trend is.
    Mr. Jenkins: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree, therefore, that the system of building licences, at any rate for the larger projects, would enable him not merely to select but also to see where he is going?
    Mr. Butler: What I am aware of is that industrial and commercial building has increased, as the House as a whole wished. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the exact details because we collect information about new starts in arrear, but I will give him statistics directly I have them.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Without entering into the exchange which we had during the Budget debate on the question of unessential building, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is not aware that while some of these projects are of great national importance, others of them are a completely unjustified call on our present building resources? Also, would he not agree that some current commercial building operations are far less important than some of the public building which he is cutting out by his financial policy?
    Mr. Butler: It is easy to make these generalisations without supporting them with specific instances. If the right hon. Gentleman likes to put particular cases before me, I will look at them.

    Government Departments (Economies)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what further steps he proposes to take to see that an example in economy in administrative spending is set by the Government themselves.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am confident that Government Departments in general—and I know that the Treasury in particular—are seized of the imperative need to which the hon. Member draws attention.
    Mr. Grimond: May I draw the attention of the Chancellor to the fact that while no doubt large economies in administration are not possible, any economies would have a salutary effect on the public, if the right hon. Gentleman wants the public really to believe that there is an urgent need for economy throughout the country?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, I am aware that in fact the hon. Member is supporting what I want to do.
    Mr. Callaghan: Will the Chancellor take into consideration the possibility of ceasing to sell any more lorries at a loss and so saving money in that way? Also, will he consider cutting out the transport levy, which is an unnecessary burden on industry?
    Mr. Butler: It is surprising how the Government think of all these things.

    British School of Archaeology, Jerusalem (Grant)
    Mr. N. Nicolsonasked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will increase the Treasury grant to the British School of Archaeology in Jerusalem.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry Brooke): The grant to the British Schol of Archaeology in Jerusalem is made not by the Treasury but by the British Academy, whose grant for 1956–57 is at present under consideration.
    Mr. Nicolson: Is it not true that my right hon. Friend has the final say in what the grants should be? Is it not regrettable that the British School, which has done such outstanding work on the Jericho excavations and the Dead Sea Scrolls, should be the only school in Jerusalem to be closed down for nine months of the year through shortage of funds?
    Mr. Brooke: I will take account of what my hon. Friend has said. It is not I who have the last word; the House has the last word. The House is invited each year to vote a block grant to the British Academy, which then distributes the grant at its discretion.
    Mr. Snow: Bearing in mind that these grants come from a single source, would it not be better, instead of a financial grant, to restore the Caryatid in the British Museum in the Erectheum on the Acropolis, thus restoring its original perfection?
    Mr. Brooke: That goes some way beyond the scope of the Question.

  CIVIL SERVANTS (COMMUNICATIONS TO MEMBERS)
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a publication issued by his Department, entitled "A Handbook for the New Civil Servant," states that a civil servant may, like anyone else, write to a Member of Parliament about a matter of general interest, but may not approach a Member of Parliament about a personal grievance of any sort in connection with his or her job; and whether he will have this passage redrafted so as to make it clear that all constituents, whether civil servants or not, have the same right to bring their personal difficulties of any kind to the attention of their Member of Parliament.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir. As the handbook makes clear, the rule in question does not prevent a civil servant from raising with his Member of Parliament a personal matter not connected with his job, or a service matter affecting others besides himself; it is designed to prevent him from attempting, by influence, to get a personal advantage over his colleagues, for example promotion. This is a longstanding rule, and, in my view, a salutary one.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Is not the Chancellor aware that there is an impression among civil servants—I find it in my own constituency—that they are put in a special category as compared with other constituents because they are not allowed to bring to their Member of Parliament a personal grievance connected with their job, not a question of advantage over others, but, as they may think, of disadvantage compared with others—some personal grievance? Would he not allow the same discretion to civil servants and their M.P.s as there is in the relations of other constituents with their M.P.s?
  Mr. Butler: This is a matter which has been before this and other Governments and was examined again in 1953, following an Adjournment debate at the end of 1952, and I do not think we should be right to alter the rule as it at present stands.

  ATOM AND HYDROGEN BOMB EXPERIMENTS
  Mr. Masonasked the Prime Minister (1) if, at his forthcoming meetings with Marshal Bulganin and President Eisenhower, respectively, he will propose limiting atom and hydrogen bomb tests to one per country per year;
  (2) if he will suggest as a topic for discussion at his forthcoming meetings with President Eisenhower and Marshal Bulganin, the question of the cessation of atom and hydrogen bomb tests.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): I would remind the House that our decision to manufacture the hydrogen bomb was announced in the Statement on Defence on 17th February this year, which was approved by this House on 2nd March. Her Majesty's Government have no intention of departing from this decision for they still regard our manufacture and possession of the hydrogen bomb as a deterrent to war.
  While Her Majesty's Government will at all times welcome arrangements which contribute to world security, they are not prepared to accept agreements which would put the United Kingdom in a position of decisive inferiority to other great Powers, a position which is not justified by the state of our scientific knowledge and resources. Her Majesty's Government are however prepared to discuss methods of regulating and limiting test explosions which take account of their own position as well as that of other powers.
  Mr. Mason: Is not the Prime Minister aware that all hydrogen and atomic bomb explosions can be detected, whether they be in the Pacific or Siberia, because barometers and geiger counters record wind blast and increases in radio-activity resulting from them? While I appreciate the content of his reply, may I ask whether he will press, at the forthcoming double-summit talks with Eisenhower and
  196
  Bulganin, the questions of the complete cessation of hydrogen bomb explosions and some strict control over further atomic explosions?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman is wrong when he says that all hydrogen and atomic explosions can be known in that way. As to what can be done in the future, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this is certainly a matter to which I have given a great deal of thought over a considerable period. There are two elements in the situation which I feel the House ought to have in mind. The first is that we hope before long to have a report from the Medical Research Council—perhaps within two or three months—which will, I think, be a very important document in connection with this question. Also, the United States Academy of Sciences is studying the problem of nuclear radiation, and we shall have an opportunity to study that too. I am just as conscious as is the hon. Gentleman of the problem which the subject creates. Of course we will discuss these matters, widely no doubt, when opportunity offers, but I must ask him to leave the initiative to my timing.
  Mr. Robens: Can the Prime Minister say when it is proposed to test Britain's H-bomb?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir; I certainly would not dream of saying anything of the kind any more than the Labour Government told us what they were doing about the atomic bomb.
  Mr. Robens: There is the difference that the Prime Minister has indicated that we are making an H-bomb. All I am asking him is whether it is proposed to test it, and when.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir; the right hon. Gentleman did not ask me that. He did not ask me whether we were going to test an H-bomb; he said "when." My reply is that I am no more willing to give information to the House on that subject than the Labour Government were about the atomic bomb.
  Mr. Robens: Is it proposed that the bomb should be tested?
  The Prime Minister.: I have no more answer to give to that question than the Labour Government gave about what they were doing with the atomic bomb.

  FOREIGN OFFICE (SECURITY DEPARTMENT)
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will include the increased cost of the Security Department of the Foreign Office in recent years, in the terms of reference of the Conference of Privy Councillors, with a view to securing a reduction in general expenditure.
  The Prime Minister: The terms of reference to the Conference of Privy Councillors will enable them to recommend, if they think this is desirable, whether any decrease or, for that matter, increase, in the activities of the Security Department of the Foreign Office, or of any other Government Department, is called for.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that the cost of the Security Department—one section of the Foreign Office watching another, with the minimum results—has increased by £12,000 during the last three years? Is he aware that the cost of the Secret Service has increased from £2 million to £5 million in the present year? Will all this be taken into consideration? Is it true, as the Daily Express says today, that the economy drive has expired?
  The Prime Minister: That is a very large number of supplementary questions in one barrel. The figures given by the hon. Gentleman in the second part of his supplementary question are quite wrong. There has been no such increase as he suggests in the Secret Service Vote. Part of the increase to which he has referred arises overseas. It will certainly be open to the Conference to examine any figures it desires to examine.
  Mr. Grimond: Will the Committee be empowered to make inquiries about any Government Department other than the Foreign Office?
  The Prime Minister: That has at all times been so.
  Mr. Daines: Does the Prime Minister ever get from Russia any reliable figures about this type of service, so that we can make comparisons?
  The Prime Minister: I was hoping to get a little help from one of my questioners. I have not had any yet.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Prime Minister whether he will make arrangements for Questions relating to the Medical Research Council to be answered in future by the Minister of Health.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, I have made these arrangements and I should like to take this opportunity of informing the House that similar arrangements have been made for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to answer Questions relating to the Agricultural Research Council. Both Ministers will answer "as representing the Lord President of the Council."
  Mr. Robinson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this sensible and obvious change will be welcomed, I am sure, on all sides of the House?
  The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Are we to understand from the Prime Minister's reply—I do not want to argue its merits now—that the responsibilities for the Medical Research Department and the Agricultural Research Department have now passed from the Lord President to the Departmental Ministers?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. They remain, as they were, the responsibilities of the Lord President. I said I thought it would be convenient for the House—the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) was kind enough to say it was sensible, which is a very welcome tribute—that the answers should be made by the Ministers departmentally concerned, though the Lord President has the over-riding responsibility.
  Mr. Woodburn: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that these matters are departmental concerns only in relation to England and Wales, and that he is covering only those countries when speaking of the responsibilities of the Lord President?
  The Prime Minister: I had even thought of the position of Scotland in this respect. Where there are circumstances which affect Scotland alone, those are, of course, the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Scotland.

  HOUSE OF LORDS (REFORM)
  Mr. Lewisasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement about the Government's proposals for reform of the House of Lords.
  Mr. Grimondasked the Prime Minister what proposals he now has for the reform of the House of Lords.
  The Prime Minister: This matter is under consideration by Her Majesty's Government, but I have no statement to make at present.
  Mr. Lewis: Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to various Press reports that the Government are a little worried because 800 of the wealthier Peers are not turning up to do their duty in the House of Lords, and that he is considering paying them £2 or £3 a day attendance money? If that is the case, will he bear in mind the activities of his predecessor in a similar matter and discuss the subject with the 1922 Committee, to prevent a possible revolt on its part?
  The Prime Minister: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is such a diligent reader of the newspapers. For my part, the Answer which I have given represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Grimond: Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that, if he comes to the conclusion that it is necessary to breathe any new life into the House of Lords by paying allowances or in any other way, it will be very unacceptable if the other House remains for ever the preserve of one party only?
  The Prime Minister: I thought it was the only place where there were large numbers of Liberals still extant.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Flooding
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what action he proposes to take to implement the recommendations of the Waverley Committee on Coastal Flooding in so far as they affect his Department.
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what
    200
    steps are being taken to investigate the practicability of a structure for intercepting tidal surges in the Thames as recommended in paragraph 91 of the Waverley Report.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. W. F. Deedes): I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by the then Home Secretary on 3rd June, 1954, in which he indicated the Government's attitude towards the Committee's recommendations and the action they were taking.
    As regards the specific problem of flood in the Thames, the practicability of building a structure across the river together with the possible alternative of increasing the height of the river alls, are being actively examined by the Government Departments and other bodies concerned.

RAILWAY ACCIDENT, BARNES
Sir G. Harvie Watt(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he has any statement to make on the railway accident which took place at Barnes last Friday night.
The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): Yes, Sir. At about 11.29 p.m. on Friday, 2nd December, 1955, the 11.12 p.m. four-coach electric passenger train from Waterloo to Chertsey and Windsor which was travelling on the down local line ran into the rear of a stationary or slowly moving freight train at the approach to Barnes station and junction. The leading coach of the passenger train was overturned, and it and the brake van of the freight train caught fire and were burnt out; the remaining three coaches were not seriously damaged. I much regret to say that 11 passengers, together with the motorman of the passenger train and the guard of the freight train lost their lives, and that 35 persons were injured, of whom 15 are still detained in hospital.
Traffic was interrupted on all four lines. Three lines were re-opened at 11.12 a.m. on Saturday, 3rd December, but the down local line was not available to traffic until 5.44 p.m. on that day.
I have appointed the Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways to hold an inquiry into this accident, and he visited the site

201
on Saturday morning. I am sure the House will understand that I cannot make any further statement on this matter at present.
I would like, however, to pay tribute to the very prompt action of the Metropolitan Police and of the ambulance and fire services, who were on the spot in strength within twenty minutes of the accident. The highest praise is due to them and to the railway staffs who took part in the difficult and dangerous work of rescue.
The House will, I know, wish to express its deep sympathy with the relatives and friends of those who lost their lives in this accident and with those who were injured.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: As these recent accidents have caused some concern, not least in my own constituency, from which a number were killed and injured, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether there will be an opportunity to debate the Reports of the Chief Inspector on these accidents, when they are published?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I cannot say anything about that at the moment. An inquiry is to be undertaken by the Chief Inspector, and we ought to wait for that.
Mr. Monslow: Would it not be a precedent if it were agreed to have a debate on a flatter of that character?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Altogether apart from that—and there is a good deal of force in what the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Monslow) says—questions about Parliamentary time are certainly not for me to answer.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make about business?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank): In view of representations made by the Opposition, it is not now proposed to ask the House to consider the Committee and remaining stages of the Leeward Islands Bill [Lords] tonight.

OFFICIAL REPORT (CORRECTION)
Mr. Paget: In the course of my speech yesterday in the Cyprus debate I said that in the circumstances that existed there I thought that the power of deportation taken by the Governor was both reasonable and necessary. Judge my surprise, therefore, when I read, in the OFFICIAL REPORT this morning, in the account of my speech:
"The second power, which I regard as insane and unreasonable, is deportation …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1955; Vol. 547, c. 126.]
I should be grateful if the necessary amendment could be made.
Mr. Speaker: I greatly regret this error and will take steps to make sure that the necessary correction is made.

PRIVILEGE (COMPLAINT)
Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order. I desire to raise with you, Mr. Speaker, an occurrence which may possibly be a breach of Privilege. I apologise for not having had the opportunity of giving you notice of this beforehand, and I appreciate that that may put you in some difficulty in answering immediately, but I thought that the rule about bringing such a matter promptly to the attention of the House compelled me to raise it now, even without notice.
I have had sent to me a copy of the Belfast Telegraph published on Saturday, 3rd December. It reached me only this morning. On the front page there appears a paragraph which is headed:
"M.P. 'Pilloried over quibble.'"
That paragraph reads, in as far as it is relevant to my complaint:
"In a reference to the threat of disqualification of Mr. Charles Beattie, M.P. for Mid Ulster at Westminster, the chairman of North Tyrone Unionist Association (Mr. E. T. R. Herdman) said Mr. Beattie had their wholehearted support.
He told the Association's meeting he could not understand how anyone could consider Mr. Beattie's membership of an Appeals Tribunal a post of profit under the Crown. He thought it"—
The next few words appear within quotation marks, which seems to mean that they are the actual words used.
"—'disgraceful that a person who served the community in such a way should be pilloried over some legal quibble'."

203
The only way in which this gentleman was "pilloried" was when the Leader of the House told us what had occurred and suggested that the matter ought to go to the Select Committee. To describe the action taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, who was only doing his duty, as "disgraceful," or the House agreeing to his proposal as "disgraceful," would appear to be the kind of criticism of Parliament and its officers which is usually held to be prima facie a breach of Privilege.
Mr. Speaker: As the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has told the House, he had no opportunity of telling me that this was coming up and I must deal with the matter as it appears to me prima facie. There has evidently been a misunderstanding of the position by the person who is quoted in that article, but I do not think that it amounts prima facie to a breach of Privilege. If the hon. Member wishes to pursue it further on consideration, he can put down a Motion to that effect for the judgment of the House, but my view, for what it
is worth, is that it is not such a prima facie breach of Privilege which would justify me in giving the matter priority over the Orders of the Day.
Mr. Silverman: May I say at once that I hold no opinion on the subject whatever, and for my part I am perfectly content to accept Mr. Speaker's Ruling on the matter, even without inquiry? I brought it forward because it seemed to me that the proper authority to determine it was not myself, but, first, Mr. Speaker and, subject to his Ruling, the House of Commons.
Mr. Speaker: I think that the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne has acted perfectly properly.

PRIVILEGE (COMPLAINT)

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Motion
  made, and Question put,
  That the proceedings of the Committee on Teachers (Superannuation) [Money] be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—(The Prime Minister.)
  The House divided: Ayes 251, Noes 186.

  Division No. 71.]

  AYES

  [3.40 p.m.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Glover, D.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Cole, Norman

  Godber, J. B.

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, s.)

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Gower, H. R.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Green, A.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Arbuthnot, John

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.

  Grimond, J.

  Ashton, H.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Atkins, H. E.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Gurden, Harold

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Balniel, Lord

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Barber, Anthony

  Davies, Rt.Hon. Clement (Montgomery)

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Barlow, Sir John

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Barter, John

  Deedes, W. F.

  Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Bidgood, J. c.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Black, C. W.

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Heath, Edward

  Body, R. F.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Eden, Rt.Hn. Sir A. (Warwick&L'm'tn)

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Braine, B. R.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Erroll, F. J.

  Holt, A. F.

  Hope, Lord John

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Fell, A.

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Howard, John (Test)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Fleetwood, Hesketh, R. F.

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R.A. (Saffron Walden)

  Freeth, D. K.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Campbell, Sir David

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

  Carr, Robert

  Gamer-Evans, E. H.

  Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  George. J. C. (Pollok)

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Sharples, R. C.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Nairn, D. L. S.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Neave, Airey

  Speir, R. M.

  Kaberry, D,

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Keegan, D,

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Kirk, P. M.

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Lagden, G. w.

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Storey, S.

  Lambton, Viscount

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co.Antrim, N.)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Osborne, C.

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Leburn, W. G.

  Page, R. G.

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Partridge, E.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. C.(Sutton Coldfield)

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R, H.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Pitman, I. J.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth S.)

  Pott, H. P.

  Vickers, Miss J. H.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Vosper, D. F.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Wade, D. W.

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Maclean, Neil (Inverness)

  Redmayne, M.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Maddan, Martin

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Whitelaw, W. S. I. (Penrith&Border)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Robertson, Sir David

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Markham, Major sir Frank

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Mathew, R.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Woollam, John Victor

  Maude, Angus

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Mawby, R. L.

  Russell, R. S.

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Mr. Wills and Mr. Legh.

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  NOES

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Albu, A. H.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Daines, P.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Anderson, Frank

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Deer, G.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Hunter, A. E.

  Balfour, A.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Bartley, P.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Dye, S.

  Irving, S. (Dartford)

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Isaacs, Rt Hon. G. A.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Beswick, F.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Blackburn, F.

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Boardman, H.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Greech (Wakefield)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Forman, J. C.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Boyd, T. C.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Kenyon, C.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Gibson, C. W.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Gooch, E. G.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Burke, W. A.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Grey, C. P.

  Lewis, Arthur

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Hannan, W.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Carmichael, J.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Hastings, S.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Champion, A. J.

  Healey, Denis

  Mahon, S.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Clunie, J.

  Herbison, Miss m.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Holman, P.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

  Holmes, Horace

  Mason, Roy

  Cove, W. G.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Mayhew, C. P.

  206

  207

  Mikardo, Ian

  Reeves, J.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Reid, William

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Monslow, W.

  Rhodes, H.

  Thornton, E.

  Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert (Lewis'm, S.)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Timmons, J.

  Mort, D. L.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Usborne, H. C.

  Moss, R.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Viant, S. P.

  Moyle, A.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Watkins, T. E.

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Oram, A. E.

  Ross, William

  West, D. G.

  Orbach, M.

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Oswald, T.

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Owen, W. J.

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Padley, W. E.

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Wigg, George

  Paget, R. T.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Willey, Frederick

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don valley)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Parker, J.

  Snow, J. W.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Paton, J.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Pearson, A.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Peart, T. F.

  Steele, T.

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Popplewell, E.

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Pryde, D.J.

  Swingler, S. T.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Rankin, John

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Mr. Short and Mr. Wilkins.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.48 p.m.
  The Minister of Education (Sir David Eccles): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Mr. John Rankin: On a point of order. May we be told how the debate will proceed? Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to deal with the provisions of the Bill which apply to Scotland? If so, may we be assured that the Minister of Education for England and Wales will deal adequately with Scottish education problems?
  Mr. Speaker: I do not think that that is a point of order, but I have been told that a Scottish Minister will sum up the debate.
  Mr. Rankin: Further to that point of order—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. There is no point of order. The hon. Member must listen to the speech that is about to be delivered. If he has a point about it he can make his speech later.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: I think that for their convenience hon. Members on both sides of the House would like to know whether the debate is to be divided into two parts, in view of the fact that the Bill affects Scotland as well as England and Wales. We should also like to know—and, naturally, Mr. Speaker, we cannot interfere with your choice—whether speakers will be chosen in different periods of the debate for Scottish and English affairs.
  Mr. Speaker: I have no knowledge of any proposed division of the debate. I understand that both England and Scotland are affected by the Bill. I will try to give both parts of the United Kingdom a fair share, but hon. Members must allow the debate to proceed. The Minister knows much more about it than I do.
  3.51 p.m.
  Sir D. Eccles: As hon. Members who have raised points of order have said, the Bill is divided into two parts, the
  210
  first applying to England and Wales and the second to Scotland. I will try to make the general argument affecting teachers North and South, but I think it would be for the convenience of the House, and it would certainly shorten my speech and allow more hon. Members to speak, if the specifically Scottish points were left to my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, who is to wind up the debate.
  Mr. Rankin: Surely the Minister will agree that that is completely wrong. When we deal with a Bill for Scotland it is always the case that the Minister concerned introduces it, but now we are told that he is merely to sum up. Surely that is completely wrong.
  Sir D. Eccles: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make my speech he can then see what the situation is.
  This promises to be an unusual education debate. Most of our discussions on education are about school buildings, or the size of classes, or the shortage of scientists and technicians, and so on. We very seldom talk about the personal affairs of teachers. I think it is a very good thing that we should.
  Mr. George Chetwynd: We have not been allowed to do so.
  Sir D. Eccles: I hope that what is said in the House today will stir up a little more public interest in the conditions and the prospects of the teaching profession.
  When I became Minister of Education I was very soon made aware that all was not well with the 240,000 teachers in the service of the English and Welsh local authorities.
  Mr. Rankin: And in Scotland.
  Sir D. Eccles: I have no doubt that the same is true in Scotland.
  These teachers felt that in recent years their profession had lost ground in public esteem. They had seen the gap narrowing between their salaries and the money taken home by industrial wage earners. Their purchasing power had not kept pace with the rise in prices, but a lot of other people seemed to them to be very much better off.
  The teachers make a mistake if they think that they have been singled out for

  211
  harder times. The fact is that the professions as a whole are worse off than they were before the war, and some of them, like the clergy—
  Mr. George Thomas: What about the doctors?
  Sir D. Eccles:—and Her Majesty's junior Ministers, by comparison with prewar, are even worse off than the teachers.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: And the judges?
  Sir D. Eccles: Nevertheless, it is the anxiety of a large section of the middle class about their standards of life which lies behind the opposition to this Bill.
  Professional dignity and an insolvent pensions account go ill together. If one desires, as I hope and believe the whole House does, to reverse the decline in the fortunes of the teachers, then one of the things we must do is to put their superannuation account right. [HON. MEMBERS: "Pay them more."] Since the teachers themselves are feeling the pinch and are depressed about their future, the only Clause in the Bill which holds their attention is Clause 2, under which they are asked to pay 1 per cent. more in contributions.
  I do not suppose that any hon. Member in any part of the House is surprised at the hostile reaction to Clause 2. The teachers are too intent on staking a claim for an increase in salary to see whether what they get for the extra 1 per cent. is worth while. That is quite understandable from their point of view, but the House can take a longer view, and I believe that we can show the teachers that what they most desire is likely to be brought nearer by the Bill.
  We have to have a new Superannuation Bill because—and now I am speaking for England and Wales—the Act of 1925 is unworkable under present conditions. How full of illusions and untenable positions the world of thirty years ago appears to us now. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) had just put us back on the Gold Standard.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: And we had the General Strike.
  Sir D. Eccles: Under that metallic spell, the value of money was expected to remain constant and invulnerable for ever.
  212
  As for teachers' salaries, to which their retirement benefits are tied, nobody expected them to move one way or the other. For form's sake, a Clause was included in that Act requiring seven-year valuations, but it cannot have been taken seriously, for there was no provision in the Act to deal with any deficiency which might be revealed by such a valuation. In the event, there was already a small deficiency in 1933 and there was a huge deficiency in 1948.
  My predecessor, who bore the brunt of explaining what an actuarial deficiency is, and I too, have found this to be a very difficult job, and I acknowledge with gratitude that the National Union of Teachers has now put on record that it does not quarrel with the Government Actuary's arithmetic. But perhaps, for the sake of those who had a classical education at Eton and Winchester, I should have one more try to explain how this yawning deficit has arisen.
  If a group of people arranged with an insurance company to pay premiums over a period of forty years in exchange for annuities at the end of that time, and then, during the period, asked for those annuities to be substantially and several times increased, they would expect the insurance company to agree only after negotiating extra premiums. That is what happens with any superannuation account. The teachers, however, have a right to higher pensions every time their salaries are marked up, and, therefore, there can be no negotiations: the payments into the account must be increased from somewhere, or one day that account will not be able to meet its liabilities.
  The actuarial deficiency with which this Bill deals is expected by the Government Actuary to be by March next about £290 million for England and Wales, and a further £34 million for Scotland. We need not delve into the mathematical assumptions made by the Actuary, because the Government are now taking over the whole of the deficiency as a charge on the Exchequer alone. That is a concession quite without precedent in size, and it clears the way for us to consider the two issues vital to the future of the Teachers' Superannuation Account. First, what rate of contributions will keep the account solvent as from 31st March next, and, secondly, how will any new deficiency, should one occur, be dealt with?

  213
  It will be remembered that in the Bill which my right hon. Friend the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh) with great courage introduced, she asked for 12 per cent. contributions, although the Exchequer was then covering only two-thirds of the outstanding deficiency. Why, then, do I now have to ask for the same 12 per cent. when the Exchequer is covering the whole of the outstanding deficiency? Had Parliament enacted the 1954 Bill, the account would now be hopelessly in deficit—by as much as it was thought to be two years ago. For, in the meantime, the Government Actuary has told us that teachers are living longer, and we have introduced equal pay and additional special allowances for posts of responsibility. All these things together greatly increase the total of the benefits which, one day, have to be paid out. Therefore, after 31st March next, the account must be fed by larger contributions.
  The Government Actuary gave us two calculations about these future contributions. Taking the rate of interest to be earned by the balance in the account as 3 per cent., he said that we should need at least 13½ per cent. in contributions. Three per cent. is about the average rate of interest applied to the pension schemes in other public services. On the other hand, if the teachers' account continued to earn the exceptionally favourable rate of 3½ per cent., then, according to the Government Actuary, we should need 2 per cent. less in contributions, or at least 11½ per cent., for England and Wales. The figure for Scotland is a quarter of 1 per cent. lower.
  You, Mr. Speaker, will not be surprised at that, for the Scots work harder and die sooner than the English. That refers to the Scots who stay in Scotland; we know that those who come South work harder, and we hope that they live longer. As part of the give and take between the Exchequer, the local authorities and the teachers, we have maintained the exceptional interest rate of 3½ per cent., and we have rounded off the new rate of contributions to 12 per cent.
  There is very little in this rounding off for the employers. All it does is to give local authorities a faint, slender hope that the new scheme will not, almost from the day it is launched, again be in deficit. The
  214
  National Union of Teachers does not dispute that the new account should start off with a higher contribution than the old 10 per cent. They do not like the rounding off to 12 per cent., and they say that whatever the new figure may be it should not be divided equally. They want the employers to take the larger share.
  If the Government gave way on these two points the Bill would be wrecked because, unless the scheme starts with 12 per cent. equally divided between the teachers and the employers, I cannot maintain Clause 4. This is the most important Clause in the Bill, for it puts upon local authorities the responsibility of meeting, with Exchequer grant, all future deficiencies. Without it the Bill is not worth having.
  This is the answer to the teachers, when they say, "Why pick on us to pay 1 per cent. more than we have been paying?" No pension scheme based upon the contributory principle has ever been in such a mess. For fully twenty-five years now the 10 per cent. contributions have been actuarially insufficient to build up a balance to meet the known liabilities. If the teachers say, "No other public employees have ever been treated in this way," they must expect other public employees to take this the other way round, because in the case of other pension schemes, the account was put right eighteen years ago. Local government employees had a new Act in 1937, and for eighteen years every new entrant into local government service has been paying 6 per cent.
  Mr. G. Thomas: Is it not clear that this is the first time any people in a position similar to that of teachers have been required, as existing contributors, to pay the larger amount?
  Sir D. Eccles: It is clear that this is the first time in history that we have had an estimated deficiency as great as £290 million for England and Wales.
  Mr. Ede: What about the deficiency on the Police Pension Fund?
  Sir D. Eccles: That has no lump sum benefit; it is an entirely different scheme. The right hon. Gentleman should know that, because he was once Home Secretary.
  It would be a very great pity if the teachers take as their chief argument what a large body of people other than the

  215
  teachers consider to be discrimination in favour of the teachers. I desire—as I believe the House does—to improve their position. It does not improve the position of the profession to choose an argument which is not accepted by the rest of the body of public servants.
  Mr. Arthur Moyle: When the Minister quotes other public employees as being somewhat disturbed by what he regards as unfair discrimination in favour of the teachers, is it not reasonable to expect him at least to give the whole story? Is he not aware that, right from the inception of superannuation in local government, it has always been the obligation of local authorities to make good the arrears upon a quinquennial valuation?
  Sir D. Eccles: From 1937. We are now trying to put the teachers on the same footing as other local government servants. To clear up the past position—which is unique—and to settle the future, is surely worth the 1 per cent. extra contribution. After all, to pay it is not the end of the story. It is immediately open to the teachers to include this extra charge upon their income as an argument in the Burnham Committee. The Minister of Education has nothing to do with the negotiations in the Burnham Committee, but the House is aware, as I am, that such negotiations are actually going on now.
  Hon. Members—especially those interested in local government—will also wish to know that the local authorities had no illusions about the importance of Clause 4. They were most reluctant to see it included in the Bill. By "authorities" I mean those with Socialist majorities just as much as those with Conservative majorities. There is no politics in this matter. The local authorities would not look at Clause 4 unless I assured them that I would stand by the 12 per cent. equally divided between the teachers and the employers. As for the teachers, they must have Clause 4. Unless they get it, any rise in their salaries at any time will throw the Superannuation Account into deficit again.
  Although Clause 4 is much the most important of the Clauses in the Bill it is by no means the only return which the teachers get for paying 1 per cent. more. Clauses 5 to 16—there are comparable
  216
  Clauses for Scotland—provide for a number of improvements in benefits or in the methods of calculating benefits which are not now enjoyed and which cannot be enjoyed unless the Bill becomes law.
  Clause 5 slightly increases the unit of calculation for lump sum payments on retirement. Instead of one-thirtieth of the average finishing salary it is to be three-eightieths multiplied by the number of years of service. The maximum number of years which can be counted for the annual pension is to be increased from forty to forty-five. The teacher will not be able to count more than forty years served before he is 60, but to enable him to get the maximum pension he may, under Clause 6, go on counting years of service till he is 70 instead of 65 as at present. Under the Bill, his right to retire at 60 on pension remains intact, and the appointing authority keeps full discretion to appoint and retire teachers.
  Clause 7 abolishes the existing rule that the maximum salary to be reckoned for superannuation is £3,000. It does two other things of wider importance. First, where a teacher goes on in employment at less than the salary he has been receiving he may, by continuing to contribute his percentage of the higher salary, preserve his right to have that salary taken into account in reckoning his superannuation. Secondly, the salary for this purpose is to be reckoned on the average of his last three years instead of five. This may make a considerable difference to the teacher who has earned his highest salary over only a short period.
  Hon. Members will see that when salaries are raised, the teachers coming to the end of their careers get an increase in pension far greater than the extra contribution—whether we reckon it as 5 per cent. or 6 per cent. makes hardly any difference—which they pay during their last few years of service. By this concession we are making this gap still wider, greatly to the benefit of the older teachers. We hope that Clauses 5, 6 and 7 will make it more attractive to teachers to stay longer in service. We need them badly, especially while the bulge is passing through the schools.
  Clause 8—the corresponding Clause for Scotland is Clause 28—gives power to establish by Rules schemes to provide pensions for the widows and children and dependants of teachers. The cost of these

  217
  benefits would be met by a deduction from the teachers' lump sum payment or the death gratuity. I will return to this question in a moment. Clause 10 has been included to allow a teacher, if he so wishes, to surrender the lump sum payable on retirement in return for a higher pension. Clause 11 clarifies the existing law in regard to the additional allowances and short-service gratuities in respect of further periods of service. Clause 12 is of help to incapacitated teachers. I should perhaps illustrate it by an example. A woman teacher with a salary of £600 breaks down at the age of 33, with between eleven and twelve years' service. Under the present law her pension would amount to about £83 a year and her lump sum to about £220. If the new provisions were in force she would receive a pension of £150 and a lump sum of £400. Clause 13 is aimed at anomalies which impede movement between grant-aided and independent schools. Clause 15 is designed to remove a restriction on teachers who take temporary teaching posts abroad, and to allow service up to a maximum of five years to count for pension, even if they have not been in contributory service in this country.
  This list of additional benefits, each small in itself, adds up to a really valuable total. We know that they are all wanted by the teachers affected, and they would all be lost if we were unable to get the Bill.
  On one outstanding question of interest I have not yet been able to give the teachers a satisfactory answer. I refer to the widespread demand for a widows and orphans scheme over and above the reallocation of existing benefits allowed for in Clause 8. In brief, Clause 8 allows us to do for teachers what has already been done for local Government and other public servants, namely, to accept the surrender of two-thirds of their lump sum benefit in exchange for a widow's pension of one-third of the employee's pension.
  Mr. W. G. Cove: The teachers paying for it entirely.
  Sir D. Eccles: This is the benefit which the teachers get under Clause 8. It is a welcome improvement. It puts the teachers on the same footing for the first time as the employees in a number of
  218
  other schemes, but it does not go as far as the teachers wish. They are thinking of the sort of case where the teacher dies between the ages of 30 and 40, leaving a widow and children. In that case his widow gets a sum of money which is clearly inadequate for her to carry on, and she must find some other source of income. The introduction of equal pay has strengthened the case of the men teachers for something extra by way of widows' and orphans' benefits. In the majority of cases the family responsibilities of the male teacher are greater than those of the woman teacher. I supported equal pay, which I think is just, but I also think that there is something in the argument which is now brought forward by the men.
  The kind of scheme which the English and Welsh teachers would like—and I have every reason to think that it is the same sort of scheme that the Scottish teachers would like—would cost new entrants a further 2 per cent. contribution on their salaries. It would cost a great more for the teachers already in service. The teachers would be willing to pay half that contribution themselves. On the other hand, the local authorities, who have to think of the repercussions upon their other pension schemes of making such a contribution, do not feel able to join in this proposal. Here again the House should know that all the English and Welsh authorities stand firmly together in their refusal to make any such contribution. There are no politics in this matter in England and Wales. They all take the same view.
  The Government sympathise with the authorities in their objection to making such a serious breach in their present arrangements. My personal view is that a more generous widows and orphans' scheme will have to come. For the moment I cannot see my way to do it. I cannot see how to get it into the Bill, because the Government could not force it down the throats of the local authorities. I undertake to go on looking for a way. My advice to the House is that it would be better to let me negotiate, if I can, on this important point.
  Miss Alice Bacon: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this point, will he say what is the purpose of putting in Clause 11, since it does precisely nothing? Though it may make

  219
  a woolly promise to teachers, even then it means that the teachers will have to pay the whole lot.
  Sir D. Eccles: I think the hon. Lady means Clause 8.
  Miss Bacon: Yes, Clause 8.
  Sir D. Eccles: The hon. Lady should not be misled by the use of the word "may." I can assure her that we shall make these regulations, which for the first time will allow teachers to reallocate the lump sum benefits which they get under the Bill. These regulations are being worked out now, and we will bring them forward as soon as we can. This will be a distinct improvement, because teachers do not have that power at present.
  The teachers are saying a lot of uncomplimentary things about the Bill. I expected it, and I do not in the least resent their criticism, because I know that we share the same objective. We are after the same thing, which is to improve the position of their profession. The difference between us is that the Government are more optimistic about the teachers' prospects than they are themselves. For them, the 1 per cent. is the last straw; for us, it is a necessary step to better things. [An HON. MEMBER: "What better things?"] Wait and see.
  If one asks what it is that makes up the sum total of the attractions of becoming a teacher, one thinks of salary, pension, the school buildings, the size of classes, and I think, above all, the respect in which the general public holds the services rendered by the teachers. On all these aspects of a teacher's life, there are signs of solid gains. A new school is being opened every day; more old schools are being reconditioned and improved; this Bill will greatly improve the teachers' pension scheme; the Government are about to bring forward proposals for raising the pensions of retired teachers; and the Burnham Committee is at this moment considering an increase in the basic scales of teachers' pay.
  All this is taking place in an improving climate of opinion. In a way, the teachers are fortunate. Events are on their side. The shortage of scientists, technologists and technicians is providing a very useful lesson to the public in the value of education. My right hon. Friend—the greatest
  220
  of my right hon. Friends—addressing his constituents at Wood Green—[HON. MEMBERS: "Woodford."] I am referring to my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). I think that the place where he spoke was Wood Green. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Never mind. My right hon. Friend drew attention to the need for expansion in our technical education. With powerful support of that kind, there is a great deal we can do.
  Those of us who are interested in education can say with complete truth to the general public that we shall get more scientists, technologists and technicians only if education advances over the whole front, from the primary schools to the universities. Here is the teachers' opportunity. If they seize it with energy, they can regain the prestige which the profession feels it has lost. Against that encouraging background, it really is good sense to ask that from March next the Teachers' Superannuation Account should be kept solvent in a manner consistent with the dignity of a great profession. That is the purpose of the Bill, which I now commend to the House.
  Miss Bacon: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether, if he is invited, he will make the same sort of speech that he has made this afternoon to next year's annual conference of the National Union of Teachers, instead of the electioneering speech which he made at their last conference?
  Sir D. Eccles: I have not been asked to the conference.
  4.26 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: The Minister of Education referred, in the concluding parts of his speech, to those lesser Clauses of the Bill which he described as conferring certain benefits on teachers. I think he hoped that they would make them regard the whole Bill as more palatable, but he did not spend a great deal of time on those Clauses. In that respect, I shall follow his example, because we know very well that the heart and centre of this Bill are the Clauses which deal with contributions, actuarial calculations and provisions to meet future deficiencies.
  The principles that underlie those parts of the Bill are the same for both the English and Scottish sections of the Bill,

  221
  except that there is, if anything, a rather stronger ground of objection to be urged against the Minister's proposals on behalf of Scotland than there is on behalf of England and Wales. Having mentioned that, I feel that I can with confidence leave the point to be further developed by some of my hon. Friends, in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), who will be winding up the debate for this side of the House.
  The Minister was trying to suggest that his proposals are necessary to make the Teachers' Superannuation Account respectable and solvent, and he endeavoured to support that argument by certain comparisons drawn between the provisions for the superannuation of teachers and those for superannuation of various other groups of public workers. Many of us in the House, with this Bill in mind, have recently been studying the details of various superannuation schemes, and it is apparent not only that they differ very widely, but that one must not, without examining the merits or demerits of any particular scheme, make casual comparisons between one feature of a scheme and one feature of some other scheme, but consider each scheme by itself, and—and this is most important—in the light of its history and what were the assumptions on the part of all the parties concerned when the scheme was created.
  It is for that reason that I propose to ask the House to devote a short time to considering the history of teachers' superannuation. That is an aspect of the matter which was entirely disregarded by the right hon. Gentleman, and I think I shall make it clear to the House why he disregarded it. In 1918, provision was made for teachers to be granted superannuation benefits on a non-contributory basis, and salary negotiations followed that. It was admitted by the Minister of Education at the time, the late Mr. H. A. L. Fisher, that the salary arrangements then entered into were certainly influenced by the fact that the pensions were to be non-contributory, and that, had they been contributory, the teachers would have asked for, and would have been entitled to receive, higher salaries than they did ask for or receive. That was the position in 1918—a clear understanding all round that the pensions were to be non-contributory.
  222
  In 1922, the teachers were informed that they must pay 5 per cent. by way of contribution. This was done for one reason only: the Geddes Committee had reported and the Government were looking for somebody from whom they could collect money in some form or other. The proceedings seemed, even to the House of Commons of that day, to be somewhat dubious.
  In the debate on the matter, a Motion to adjourn the debate was carried against the will of the Government. The Government adopted the device, familiar to Governments in such a situation, of appointing a Select Committee to inquire whether there was any breach of faith involved in what it was proposed to do. The Select Committee was drawn from a House in which the Government of the day had a very large majority. Even so, it managed to decide by a majority of only one vote that there had not been an implied pledge to teachers that their pensions should be non-contributory. However, the Government got their way and in 1925 the main Act, on which the scheme now rests, was introduced to make the 5 per cent. contribution permanent.
  One would have thought that there had been enough breach of faith already in this story, but we now have to notice another feature. In the 1925 Act it was laid down that there should not be a fund for teachers' pensions, that the money collected in contributions should not be separately invested but should go as an appropriation-in-aid in the Ministry of Education Estimates, and that correspondingly the Treasury should make itself responsible for enabling the Ministry to pay out pensions. It was not to be in a fund, but in an account.
  The reason given for that arrangement was that it was financially more desirable to the Government of the day. The money received in contributions was to be used at that time for the redemption of war debt, for which there were strong financial arguments. To defend that transaction, the then Minister of Education, the then Lord Eustace Percy—he was rejecting the idea of a fund and defending the idea, which was adopted, of an account—used the following words:
  "Whereas under Lord Emmott's fund it would have been the fund that was responsible for finding the benefits and not the Treasury, under our proposal the Treasury is solely responsible for finding the cash to pay the benefits."

  223
  He was not speaking only of that time or even of the future. He went on to examine what might happen forty-five years after the time at which he was speaking. He prophesied that in 1970 the total gross bill for teachers' pensions would amount to about 20 per cent. of teachers' salaries. In fact, at the present time, when we are still some years short of the period of his prophecy, the pensions payment amounts to only about 12½ per cent. of the salaries bill and not to 20 per cent.
  Lord Eustace Percy was looking ahead to a time when the pensions payments would represent 20 per cent. of the salaries bill. He emphasised that even when the pensions payments were 20 per cent. of the salaries bill, only 5 per cent. would be paid by the teachers; 2 per cent. net, when grant had been allowed for, would be paid by the local authorities and the remaining 13 per cent. entirely by the Treasury.
  "The whole increased liability,"
  he said,
  "must fall on the Treasury."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1925; Vol. 123, c. 1783–4.]
  What does the history of this matter sum up to? First, teachers were told after the First World War, "Negotiate your salaries on the basis of non-contributory pensions." They did so and were then told, in what any ordinary person would regard as a breach of faith, "Now you have got to pay contributions after all." Next, they are told, "Your contributions are to be 5 per cent. and the scheme is not to be funded. The Government will get some financial advantage out of its not being funded but, in return, you must understand that the advantage to you of this fund is that for a great many years ahead the Treasury will continue to bear any increased liability."
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: The hon. Member will, of course, agree that that undertaking was in the context of the question as between an account and a fund and was an undertaking that no liability resulting from the fact that there was not a fund would ever be imposed upon the teaching profession.
  Mr. Stewart: No. Lord Eustace Percy's words will not bear that interpretation. His point was that one of the advantages of not having a fund was that even when teachers' pensions had reached the height
  224
  that he was forecasting, the whole increased liability would still fall upon the Treasury. Now, by further breach of faith, teachers are to be told, "It is not to fall wholly on the Treasury. It is partly to be borne by higher contributions from you."
  The historical evidence shows very plainly that there was not at any time any justification for assuming that teachers could, in the ordinary course of events, be required to meet any actuarial deficiencies that might arise. There is nothing in the 1925 Act to justify such an assumption, and in the statements made by the Minister at the time he introduced the Act there is every justification for assuming the contrary.
  I stress that, because in some quarters it has been suggested that what the Minister now proposes to do is merely to ask from teachers something which in reason, in common sense and in equity they ought to be prepared to pay. I emphasise that there is no evidence whatever in what has happened throughout the whole history of this matter to justify such an assumption and that we are far more justified in assuming the contrary.
  From that it follows that when the Minister says, "I am going to wipe out the actuarial deficiency," he is merely saying, "I agree that in future I will not use against the teachers"—or against the local authorities, for they are one of the losers under the Bill—"an argument for which, in fact, there is not the smallest shred of historical justification." That means that this offer to wipe out the deficiency is quite valueless and that to try to strike a bargain with teachers and local authorities whereby they have to part with hard cash and the Minister merely parts with an argument that had no validity anyhow, is not a reasonable argument.
  It is worth while noticing, further, that whereas the Minister's whole argument here is insubstantial, the fundamental difference between his present Bill and the abortive Bill that did not reach the Statute Book last year is merely one-third of this insubstantial argument. There is, in fact, no real difference between what the right hon. Gentleman is now proposing and what the Government prudently decided they would not do last year. I hope that this point will be considered by certain hon. Members

  225
  opposite, of whose resolute opposition to last year's Bill so much was made at the time.
  Mr. James Johnson: There has been an Election since then.
  Mr. Stewart: This is not altogether a matter which can be settled by reference to the past alone. Let us now look at the state of the actuarial account, which moves the argument from the past to the future. Many people have made an attempt at trying to state in simple language what an actuarial argument is, and the Minister joined the number this afternoon. My own venture on this task would be as follows: an actuarial statement is not a statement of present fact. It is not an infallible prophecy, neither is it a wild guess. It is a well-informed judgment of future probabilities, that judgment being made on the basis of certain assumptions for which the actuary is not responsible and which may or may not prove to be correct. The further the period ahead for which the actuary is required to forecast the more difficult it is to say whether or not those assumptions will be fulfilled.
  I do not dispute, and I do not think anyone who has studied this matter at all seriously disputes, that the actuarial calculations which the Government uses are as good as actuarial calculations can be, but they are subject to the limitations and assumptions I have just described. What, in fact, do those actuarial calculations tell us? There is this frightening figure of £290 million which has been waved about in a fashion which might give the uninitiated to suppose that the Government have actually to find £290 million this year. Of course, the Government have not to do anything of the sort. I realise that that is generally recognised here, but perhaps it is just as well that it should be recognised in the country as a whole.
  What do these figures mean? They mean that, granted certain assumptions of a kind which it is reasonable to make but which may or may not be fulfilled at some future date, the State, in order to pay teachers' superannuation, will have to find a sum in excess of what is paid in contributions. If we look ahead over a period long enough to include the death of every person who is now a teacher in service, that liability might amount to £290 million. When is that
  226
  future liability, to be incurred over so long a period, really going to press on the national finances? If the calculations given by the Government in reply to Questions are correct, in twenty years from now this account will show as large a balance and no greater an actuarial deficiency than it shows at present.
  If we try to look ahead to the period when the liability will actually become real, when the State will actually be having to pay out more than has been paid in, we shall have to look at a period of at least thirty and, possibly, forty years ahead. So we are considering liabilities which may or may not fall on the community in a generation's time. As the right hon. Gentleman so truly said, looking back thirty years, "How full of illusions does the world of thirty years ago seem today." His successor in thirty years' time may very well make the same pronouncement about the arguments now advanced in support of this Bill.
  Of course, if there were solid grounds for supposing that in the next thirty years this nation was going to become progressively poorer, then indeed not only with regard to teachers, not only with regard to education, but with regard to every department of the national life we ought to be considering what sacrifices should be made now as against future needs. But is that, in fact, the argument of the Government? What has the Chancellor of the Exchequer been telling us for quite a long time?—that the reason we have to prune the roses, trim the ship, bridle the horses, pull on the brake and engage in all the other metaphorical actions, is so that the ship can sail safely into the future in which, in twenty-five years' time, the national income will be doubled. If even half the prophecy of the Chancellor is fulfilled the whole case for a Measure of this kind melts away at once.
  Sir D. Eccles: I think the hon. Member has got it exactly upside down. The richer the country gets the more the teachers can expect their salaries to be increased and, therefore, the larger will be the pensions and lump sum benefits and the sooner the Superannuation Account will be in deficit.
  Mr. Stewart: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman has it wrong there. The possibility of the account becoming in deficit depends on what happens to real

  227
  money incomes, what the Chancellor was referring to, and what I was referring to, was real incomes. If money incomes go up the account will go out of balance, but what we are discussing here is the real problem of the possibility of the nation not being able to afford these superannuation benefits and its power to afford something depends on the quantity of goods and services it will produce.
  What the Government are saying is, "First of all, you must be prepared"—this section of the community, that section and the other section—"to sacrifice now as the price of sailing into the Chancellor's golden future." At the same time, the Government are saying, "But the future is not as golden as all that and teachers are to accept a further sacrifice because we are afraid that it will not be so golden." There is neither to be jam tomorrow, nor on any other day.
  Mr. J. R. H. Hutchison: The hon. Member seems to be giving a lecture on actuarial calculation. If he were an actuary he would surely have to take into consideration the trend, which has been going on all through history, of rising money value.
  Hon. Members: Decreasing money value.
  Mr. Stewart: I am obliged to the hon. Member and also to those who corrected his slip of the tongue, but what I have been saying has been in reference to increase in the real wealth of the nation, As I say, most of the policies of the Government and the justification for present sacrifice is based on the assumption that there will be such an increase of real wealth. If we make assumptions of that kind the justification for a Measure of this kind disappears at once.
  Mr. David Price Mr. David Price (Eastleigh) rose—
  Mr. Stewart: I am sorry, but I cannot give way again. I have already given way three times on this question and other hon. Members wish to speak in the debate.
  I take up the point raised by the hon. Member for Scotstoun (Mr. J. R. H. Hutchison). It is true that if, during the next generation, money incomes, and teachers' salaries with them, rise, this sum would cease to be actuarially sound.
  228
  The Minister himself said that there was but a faint, slender hope that, with the 12 per cent. contribution, contributions and benefits would in future balance. He said also that Clause 4, which makes provision for future liabilities, was essential to the Bill. What does that mean? It means this. At present, we have a situation in which teachers and local authorities pay a contribution of 5 per cent. each and it is known that there is to be a deficit, which, as the law stands, would be met by the Treasury. If no legislation were introduced, the Government could not escape liability to pay teachers' pensions. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not dispute that.
  If this Measure is enacted teachers will pay 6 per cent., local authorities will pay 6 per cent. and the account will still not be in balance. The deficit will have to be met from public funds, partly central and partly local. That means that when we have brushed aside all the dust of the actuarial calculation the net effect of this Bill will be that whereas we have a scheme which is not self-balancing at present, and teachers pay 5 per cent., in future we shall have a scheme which will still not be self-balancing, but teachers and authorities will pay 6 per cent.
  The net effect of this legislation, therefore, is to require every year in future £1¾ million from the teaching profession and to net £¾ million from local authorities with the further requirement from local authorities of two-fifths of an unknown liability. We might introduce this point, in passing. One criticism which can already be made of the financing of education is that it causes a very grave anxiety to local authorities, and we may, unless reforms in local government are introduced, face a situation in which the nation can afford to spend more on education, but the local authorities cannot face the rate burden. This Bill is not only injuring the teaching profession, it is also imposing a levy of £750,000 on the local authorities, and two-fifths of an unspecified future liability.
  What is the answer which the Minister gives to the teachers who object to the Bill? When we strip it of all its verbiage, what the Minister is saying to them is, "Why should you bother? Try to get it back out of Burnham." I wonder whether the local authorities will receive that advice from the Minister with quite the

  229
  enthusiasm that he expects. This is a profoundly irresponsible way of facing the matter. It means that the Treasury is collecting this sum from the teachers and the teachers are invited to get it back, if they can, from the local authorities. The local authorities will get 60 per cent. of it back from the Exchequer. If the teachers were successful in carrying out the advice which the right hon. Gentleman is giving them, the net effect of the Bill would be to increase the financial burden on the local education authorities.
  When we look at the Bill the teachers are justified in saying that, in effect, it means a reduction of their salaries. It does not make the fund actuarially sound, because to make provision as to how a deficit shall be met in a fund is not the same thing as creating a fund in which there will not be a deficit. We have already an account in which there are bound to be deficits. The Bill does not alter that situation. The Bill simply adds to the contributions which teachers and local authorities are to make. Therefore, the teachers are justified in regarding this as a salary reduction, and they are entitled to say that to take such a salary reduction from them is to put them in a unique position at the present time.
  The Minister tried to answer that by saying, "There are other people in what are commonly called middle-class occupations who are worse off relatively than they were before the war." That is true, but that is surely not a reason why one group of people pursuing a middle-class occupation should have a crack taken at them by the Minister. It has been argued that teachers have no particular ground for objecting to paying a contribution of 6 per cent. because in many other schemes the employee pays 6 per cent. but, as I said earlier, we cannot argue this matter by taking first one item and then another, according to what suits our argument, out of the other superannuation schemes.
  It is quite true that in many other schemes the employee pays 6 per cent., but it is also true that in many of these schemes the contribution paid by the employer is higher than that paid by the employee. It is true that in many of these schemes provision is made for future deficits to be met by the employer, and that several of these schemes have proper provision for widows' and dependants' benefits. So if the fact that in some
  230
  schemes 6 per cent. has to be paid is to be quoted as an argument why the teachers' contributions should be raised to 6 per cent., we must call into consideration all the other respects in which their superannuation scheme differs from the superannuation schemes of other workers. By and large, it will not appear that they are exceptionally favourably treated, to say the least.
  It is true that one of the features in the life of our country today is the very important difference which there is between that section of the population which enjoys a reasonable measure of superannuation and that section which has nothing but the National Insurance Act to rely upon. I think that that is one of the biggest differences between different groups of workers in our nation.
  My counsel to the teachers or to any group of workers on this and other matters, would be to make common cause with some of their less fortunate fellow subjects. Whatever one may think about that, we certainly shall not improve the situation by trying to drive down any one group, which is, in effect, what this Bill is doing. Why this particular group? I think that we know the reason. It is the same reason that has caused their salaries to be cut in times of past financial crisis. It is the same reason that caused the contributory schemes to be introduced in 1922. The reason is that they are handily within Government's reach, and it is fairly easy administratively to get at them. To get at certain other groups may be a more difficult Parliamentary transaction.
  Teachers have been called upon, in recent years, to include in their work an ever-increasing range of functions. The nation considers it a good thing that there should be school milk and school meals on an increasing scale. That requires additional work from the teachers. The nation, looking at the grave traffic problem on the roads, considers it a good thing for young people to receive instruction in road safety. Immediately it is suggested that this is something that the teachers can do. Another group is alarmed that there may be an increase of drunkenness among young people, and a suggestion is made, "Cannot something be done about this at the schools?" So this goes on. There is hardly any social problem which arises without the suggestion that the teaching profession has a special contribution to make towards solving it.

  231
  I do not complain about this. As modern life becomes more complex, the task of education becomes more complex, and the teaching profession should be, and I think are, prepared to face that responsibility. But the community cannot reconcile making these ever-increasing demands on the profession with an attitude which says, "Whenever it is decided to reduce public expenditure or to take certain financial measures the teachers are always to find themselves in the most vulnerable position and most likely to have their standard of life affected."
  The Minister is the latest in making increased demands on the teachers. Not long ago, if he was correctly reported in the Press—and he will tell me if he was not—he thought that it would be a good thing for teachers to have more education, more culture, more travel and what have you. As the poet says:
  "What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed."
  I am sure that it would be good for teachers and perhaps for all of us to have more education, more culture, more travel, and even more "what have you," but it is hardly the best way of helping us, the teachers, or anyone to get more of these desirable things to invite us to part with 1 per cent. of our incomes for nothing. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not for nothing."] An hon. Member says "Not for nothing," but let us look at the remaining Clauses of the Bill. I do not propose to make any lengthy comment on them. There are a number of minor administrative matters which are satisfactorily dealt with.
  There is the Clause which deals with the Minister's powers to make regulations to provide for widows and dependants. I think that it should again be emphasised, not so much for the benefit of this House, but to make the matter clear in the public eye, that the Clause in the Bill which makes it possible for the Minister to make arrangements which will help the widows and dependants of teachers is one which involves no additional charge on public funds. It is a rearrangement of the teachers' money, and as such, it cannot properly be regarded as a concession at all.
  After all, it is the business of the right hon. Gentleman to see that such resources as are available are employed in the
  232
  manner most likely to give general satisfaction. He cannot say that by performing that duty he is in any way entitling himself to ask the teachers to make a contribution from their salary. It is true that there is a rise in the lump sum from one-thirtieth to three-eightieths. There is a more generous provision for teachers who have to give up their work for reasons of health. But the best comment on all the remaining Clauses of the Bill, which today the Minister described as "really valuable," was given a little while ago, when the almost identical Clauses in the previous Bill were described in the Bill itself as
  "not imposing any appreciable charge on public funds."
  There is no substantial quid pro quo in those Clauses.
  I think that we should bring this point home to the Minister. He is supposed to be the Minister of Education. We are delighted that he is in the Cabinet and we understand the working of the doctrine of collective Cabinet responsibility. But, after all, Ministers in the Cabinet are supposed to put up some sort of battle for the needs of their own Departments, and this is not a Bill which assists the work of the right hon. Gentleman's Department at all. It is a Bill which assists the Treasury. There are a great many things which might have been in the Bill dealing with teachers' superannuation. There is the minor matter of making provision for pensions to be paid monthly instead of quarterly. There is the somewhat larger matter of allowing incompleted as well as completed years to count for superannuation purposes. There is the possibility of including all service to count towards pension. There might have been the possibility of making more generous arrangements for teachers on supply, and teachers doing part-time work, who are a very valuable part of the teaching profession at the present time.
  Above all, there might have been a real provision for widows and dependants. The Minister has given us the reason why he could not include the last matter which I have mentioned. No doubt he may have other reasons for not being able to include the other things. But why could not he have taken the line, "I am the Minister of Education. It is not my business to sponsor a Bill which makes no real educational advance, but may

  233
  possibly make the Treasury's problem a little easier"? Why could not he have said that he would not sponsor this kind of thing until he was able to include in it some of those points to which I have referred? That would have been in keeping with the right hon. Gentleman's position as Minister of Education.
  If we look to the past, we find nothing to justify this Bill and much to condemn it as a breach of faith. If we look to the future, we find that an attempt is made to justify it on the most uncertain assumptions, stretching forward to a period of time, to a date about which we really cannot make realistic assumptions at all; and those future assumptions, also, can only be of any relevance to this Bill if the other predictions of the Government about the economic future of the country prove entirely erroneous. After turning away from both the past and the future and looking at the present effect of the Bill, we see that it is simply to collect a certain amount of money from the teachers and the local authorities, and that this cannot be justified out of any consideration for the needs of education, or of justice between teachers and other members of the community, but simply as part of the general tendency of the Government to increase economic inequalities and injustices. Neither in the past, nor in the future, or in the present is there any valid argument for this Bill, and I earnestly hope that the House will reject it.
  5.5 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Like the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart), I shall direct my attention exclusively to what is the main purpose of this Bill, to solve a problem which called aloud for solution and could not be allowed indefinitely to remain in its present state, namely, the condition of the Teachers' Superannuation Account. The fact that that Account is in immense deficiency is not, of course, disputed. But, in order to decide whether this be the right way in which to deal with it, we have to analyse with some little care the reasons for the deficiency emerging, and I should like to divide those reasons, broadly, into three.
  Deficiencies in the account for a superannuation scheme of this kind, where contributions of a percentage of salary
  234
  earn pensions related to finishing salary, can arise in three ways. They can arise through the effect of inflation. They can arise through real increases in salary from time to time. They can arise through changes in the actuarial factors, such as longevity, rate of retirement and the actual form and calculation of the superannuation benefits themselves.
  Let us take the first of those cases, the effect of inflation, which necessitates, from time to time, teachers' salaries being adjusted so that their real earnings may remain, at any rate, roughly the same. Inevitably, that process results in a deficiency in the Account. But that is not a ground on which I should defend any alteration in the proportion of salary which the teacher contributes. In real terms it would be a mere swindle. In real terms, what happens is that the teacher, year by year, continues to contribute the covenanted percentage of his real earnings, and on retirement receives a pension bearing the covenanted relationship to his real final earnings. Simply because of a fall in the value of money, there is an apparent deficiency, while in reality the State has been the gainer; for during the periods in which adjustment of salary has lagged behind the fall in the value of money, the State has been getting its education, to that extent, on the cheap. After the adjustment has been made, after the adjustments of salaries and superannuation have been made, it is still only paying its teachers and its retired teachers the same proportion of the national income as before. If, therefore, this Bill involved any element of the deficiency due to inflation being borne by the teaching profession, I should not support it.
  Now let us consider the second case of a deficiency possibly arising, that is, that there may from time to time have been real increases in teachers' salaries, either absolute increases, whereby the teaching profession went forward on the same footing with a general advance in living standards made possible by the rise in the national wealth, or else a relative increase, whereby their pay went ahead of the pay of other professions and employments. There again, in neither case do I think that the deficiency ought to be made a ground for an increase of contributions. If the real rise in salary is

  235
  part of a general rise in the national standard of living, then the same considerations apply as in the case of inflation: for there is no real increase in the burden which the nation bears in respect of its education, no real increase in the proportion of the national wealth which comes to the teaching profession.
  On the other hand, if it be—I would not say that this has happened over the last 20 or 30 years, but rather that the contrary has happened—but if by any chance it be that the real income of the teachers has improved relatively to the rest of the community, then that would so clearly be designed to produce a definite effect, that of attracting talent and manpower to the profession, that we ought to think long and earnestly before we attached any form of deterrent to it. Therefore, I would reject entirely any proposal to visit deficiencies arising from inflationary or real salary changes upon the teaching profession or the teachers' employers.
  There remains to be considered the third group of factors. Here we come on to very different ground. Over the past 20 or 30 years those factors have changed substantially. The expectation of life of a teacher entering the profession today is appreciably greater than—[AN HON. MEMBER: "Shame."]. I am astonished at an hon. Member deploring the improvement in the expectation of life of a teacher. I think it must have been a misunderstanding.
  Mr. F. Blackburn: If the hon. Member does not understand irony, it is time that he did.
  Mr. Powell: Perhaps it was a rather misplaced irony.
  As I was saying, not only has there been this substantial improvement in the expectation of life, but other actuarial factors, too, have changed. One of those is what is known technically as the salary slope. Since the amount of the superannuation is attached to the salary earned in the closing years of a teacher's life, it follows that the sooner a higher proportion of teachers reach or approach their closing salary the more they will contribute towards their superannuation, and vice versa. As has been shown in the Actuarial Report of 1948, the salary slope has altered in the last 30 years so
  236
  as to make the actuarial factor less favourable—slightly, but none the less definitely.
  Finally, this Bill itself improves the superannuation conditions of the teacher.
  Dr. Horace King: I am following the hon. Member's argument very carefully—and it is a very closely reasoned one—but surely he is wrong when he says that the change in the slope of salary has been actuarially unfavourable. What has happened in the last 30 years is that teachers have more quickly got on to the maximum. They have been paying their contributions at the maximum for a longer period, and any actuarial effect of that has been in favour of rather than against the Actuary.
  Mr. Powell: The Actuary's Report and the Report of the Working Party on this Bill were to the contrary effect, as I could quote to the hon. Member.
  Finally, there is the fact that this Bill itself improves the benefits which are earned by the contributions. Taking all those factors together in one group, they represent the value of an additional 1½ per cent. contribution which, if it be divided upon the principle underlying the 1925 Act—which, after all, both sides of the House have accepted both in and out of office; whatever be the history—and I agree that, in some ways, it is a deplorable history—of the 1925 Act, the fact remains that both sides have accepted it—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Both parties, when in office, have for 20 or 30 years accepted the 1925 basis of providing for superannuation. We cannot get away from that. If on that basis, in that ratio, we divide the 1½ per cent. equally, it produces an increased contribution from the teaching profession of ¾ per cent. as compared with the 1 per cent. in the Bill.
  At this point, one has to deal with the argument of the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) that, even though that be so, even though the teachers are today and will, in future, be getting more for their contribution than its actuarial value—getting more than was implicit in the 1925 calculation and scheme—nevertheless the statements of the Government in 1925 ruled out for ever, and in any circumstances, any increase whatever in teachers' contributions. The hon. Member made the astonishing claim that whatever the benefits teachers might get under

  237
  whatever future Bill there might be, and under whatever conditions of longevity, survival and service, the Government were always bound to 5 per cent.
  I cannot think that that is so. The hon. Member was, I am sure, misrepresenting the Minister of Education of that time, who, whenever he argued that no Government could in future come forward with a request for an increased contribution, was speaking clearly and decidedly within the context of the fact that interest was being credited but not actually earned on the surplus in the account, and was stating—he stated it over and over again, and of course everyone has stated the same since—that it would be monstrous if any increase in contribution were to be required on that ground.
  That is made clear by the words of Lord Eustace Percy, as he then was, in Standing Committee on the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill, 1925. Replying to his opponents, Lord Emmott and the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove)—who is still with us—Lord Eustace Percy said:
  "Therefore the case contemplated by Lord Emmott and the hon. Member is this, that at some future time a Government will come to the House of Commons with an account prepared in accordance with this Bill, which shows that the teachers and local authorities contributions, with those of the State, have been sufficient, on the assumption of a fund, to meet all the benefits chargeable against that fund. The account would show that, if there has been a fund, there could be no question of raising the teachers' contributions or of reducing the benefits, and the Government in face of that evidence would have to come to Parliament and say, 'Here is the account; here is the bond we made with the teachers some years ago; now we ask you to break that bond not only with the teachers but with the local authorities as well'."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 30th June, 1925; c. 1868.]
  It is perfectly clear from the run of that passage, and in particular from the words that the contributions
  "… have been sufficient … to meet all the benefits chargeable against that fund."
  that Lord Eustace Percy was referring to the contingency of an account credited with a notional sum of interest and able to meet the commitments of the scheme and yet the Government, in spite of that, coming to Parliament to ask for an increase in contribution.
  Mr. Cove: My memory is that Lord Eustace Percy was arguing that there was as much security and stability in an account as there would be in the fund. As a matter of fact, the scheme in the 1925 Act was forced on the Committee by the statement of the Minister that if the Committee persisted in saying that there must be a fund—and there were Conservative Members who were as keen as we were on this point—that if we persisted that there must be a fund, he would withdraw the Bill. It was with that threat that the whole scheme was put through.
  Mr. Powell: But the hon. Member overlooks the fact that if, under the 1925 Act, there had been a fund instead of the account, we should still be in exactly the same position, and the deficiency would be at exactly the same figure which is mentioned in the Financial Memorandum to this Bill. The point is that, before the deficiency is arrived at, the interest has been credited just as it would have been earned by a fund.
  Mr. Cove: Will the hon. Gentleman answer me this? Surpluses are spent as an appropriation in aid of the Ministry of Education. The money paid in by teachers and local authorities is dissipated as soon as it comes in. This is what I want to ask the hon. Gentleman. Where is there any security in the future under this account? What we are doing is piling up a debt for the future, and putting future citizens to the necessity of having to pay greater taxation. The great fear among the teachers is that there is no stability and no security in this scheme. Indeed, the 6 per cent. makes it worse.
  Mr. Powell: But on the point whether any future increase in contribution was repudiated or not, I come back to the fact that it was only repudiated if proposed because of a deficiency equivalent to the notional interest on a fund which did not exist. Had the fund existed, and had the interest been earned, there would still have been the same deficiency as that which we are facing, and dealing with by this Bill.
  So we come back to this 1½ per cent. for the extra value of what present and future teachers are getting, which, on the basis of the 1925 Act, falls to be divided equally between the two parties to the superannuation scheme. I do not see

  239
  how one can argue that in any contribution scheme, any scheme with a contribution based upon the value of the benefit to be earned, the teachers can claim to pay less than the actuarial value of what an entrant tomorrow into the teaching profession is going to enjoy, with all the other possible changes throughout his teaching life ignored.
  There remains then only the trivial difference between the ¾ per cent. and 1 per cent.—30s. gross on an annual salary of £600. I myself think that for that ¼ per cent. we are really making a great advance. We are really getting more than value for money for that ¼ per cent. I leave out of account the fact that the actuarial factors which have cost 1½ per cent. will certainly go on in the same direction, that longevity—the national health—will continue to improve, and that long before the persons entering the teaching profession today are drawing their superannuation it will be more than ¾ per cent. which will represent the additional cost of their probabilities of survival. But I leave that on one side.
  What, I think, we are getting in this settlement—for settlement it is—is escape from an intolerable position, a position in which the teaching profession, on the face of an Act and on the face of a settlement, owing to the total change in the conditions since 1925, could be considered to be liable for deficiencies which ought not to be placed upon their shoulders. What we are getting in return for that ¼ per cent. is not only the writing off of a past deficiency but the writing into an Act of Parliament of provisions as to what shall happen in the case of any future deficiencies which are revealed.
  Yet I do not want to see this the end of the story. We have now got a superannuation scheme which is contributory only in the sense that there is a fixed contribution from the employee, which is actuarial only in the sense that that contribution is fairly calculated in an actuarial sense; but all the other characteristics of a contributory scheme, all the characteristics of a private insurance scheme, such as my right hon. Friend referred to, are totally absent. We have nothing now which differentiates this from a pension scheme as part of salary, except the mere fact of the contribution. It is my hope, and it would be my humble advice to the
  240
  teaching profession, that the next objective should be a non-contributory pension scheme for the teaching profession. That is the natural next step onwards from this Bill. I believe the Bill is necessary to make that further advance possible, and I believe that that further advance will come.
  5.25 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomas: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) is a scholar of considerable reputation, but his arithmetic does not bear examination. The hon. Gentleman has made several miscalculations, according to my standard of arithmetic, in what he has been saying, and in my opinion my standards are as good as the hon. Gentleman's. The hon. Gentleman made this mistake, I thought, throughout his argument, that if there had been a fund we should be in the same position today. Whereas, of course, if there had been a fund a long time ago responsibility for accumulating actuarial deficiencies would have been settled and the local authorities would have been obliged to have dealt with this problem a long time ago.
  The Minister today made a speech which was notable for the absence of the buoyant confidence which usually characterises his public utterances. Whether he is talking of his leading lady or philosophising in public about "Treating them mean will make them keen," the Minister usually succeeds in wrapping his words in a cocoon of charm. He was notably uneasy, today, and with good cause. For more than 20 years it has been my privilege to be associated with the National Union of Teachers, and it is my privilege to visit local associations of teachers in different parts of England and Wales. I warn the House that I have never seen the teaching profession so angry, so frustrated and resentful as it is at present.
  I have seen hon. Members laugh at the number of telegrams they have received today, but it is no laughing matter when the teaching profession of this country is aroused to the state of indignation in which it finds itself today, and the Minister cannot evade his share of the responsibility for this unhappy breakdown in the relationships in the education service. The National Union of Teachers is not a party political organisation. It

  241
  owes no more loyalty to this side of the House than it does to that side of the House. Indeed, teachers helped a great many hon. Members opposite to get back to this House at the last Election, and they know that. They helped me. They are enlightened in Cardiff. The teachers, as a profession, have not sought to be drawn into this battle which the Minister is clearly responsible for initiating.
  The Minister claims that this Measure is more generous than that which the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh), whom I am pleased to see sitting in her place, sought to introduce into the House in the last Parliament. The Minister makes exactly the same claim on the teaching profession as did the right hon. Lady in her scheme. One-third of this deficiency was to be made good by the contributions of the teachers and local authorities.
  But now we are told that the Minister is being responsible for the full deficiency and that the local authority will accept responsibility for future deficiencies. Why increase the contribution to 6 per cent. if the present liability is removed? And if future liabilities are being cared for, why make the teacher pay more? It is quite clear that it is dishonest to suggest that the teacher is not meeting the future liabilities in the matter. If the amount remains at 5 per cent., the Minister knows that either he or the local authority will have to provide the bigger amount.
  Then there is the argument that the burden must be equally shared between the teachers and the local authorities. There is nothing sacrosanct about the arithmetic of this superannuation scheme. There is nothing sacrosanct about sharing the balance equally. It will be found that employers pay 25 per cent. more than the employees in the National Health Service. The National Coal Board pay twice the contribution that each of its employees pays. The Central Electricity Authority pays £2 for every £ which its servants pay. There is no reason, and not even a moral basis, for the argument that there must be a 50–50 arrangement. If the contributions made by the National Gas Council, the B.B.C., the Atomic Energy Authority, and certainly the police authorities, are examined it will be found that the Minister's case is demolished.
  Sir D. Eccles: I think that the hon. Member has not really bothered to study the other schemes. If he does so, he will find that in schemes where the employer pays more than the employee the rate of interest is 3 per cent. or less. The employer, of course, can choose. He can either have a high rate of interest to be earned by the balance and a lower rate of contribution, or a smaller rate of interest and a higher rate of contribution. For instance, as I told the House, if we had applied to the teachers' account a rate of 3 per cent. as in the case of the National Health Service, we might have had 6 per cent. teachers' and 8 per cent. employers' contributions.
  Mr. Thomas: The right hon. Gentleman is not taking my point. Even if the cost rose to 16 per cent., the Minister, on his own argument, would say to the House that the contribution should be 8 per cent. from the teachers and 8 per cent. from the local authority. The right hon. Gentleman knows that that is the line which he has pursued. The Government have singled out the teachers for reasons which are common to all the provisions.
  This actuarial deficiency which it is estimated will exist for some time in the future is traceable to reasons advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart), whom I should like to thank for his speech, and indeed by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West. It looks as if this proposal might be part of a campaign to deal with superannuation schemes in general. If it is, the Minister or somebody in the Government ought to have been honest enough to say so.
  The policeman's pension scheme is much more out of actuarial balance than is the teacher's. Why are the Government not saying anything about the policeman's superannuation fund? All his actuarial deficiencies are met from local authority rates. The police grant is only 50 per cent., not 60 per cent. as in the case of teachers, and there is clearly here an argument that teachers are being treated differently from others.
  There are benefits in the scheme for which I want to thank the Minister. They are benefits which I believe were advanced by the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side in the first instance. The right hon. Lady has not

  243
  always been given the credit which is due to her. I have never failed to admire her courage. She certainly had a raw deal when she was abandoned by her friends who are now coming with the same Measure to support her successor in office. It is not a pretty political picture. What are all the benefits of this Measure really worth? They are worth three-twentieths of 1 per cent. of the contribution which the teacher makes. The actuarial estimate of the amount needed to cover the deficiency is only 11½ per cent., but the Minister, for some reason which he has not explained, is making it 12 per cent., and therefore the teachers are already going to pay more than the actuary requires them to pay and more than would cover all these increased benefits of which the Minister is so proud.
  This is a Bill of lost opportunity. The Minister has not referred to the anomalies which he might have cleared up. In his haste to increase the teachers' contribution he has ignored many of the demands which the profession has reasonably enough made to him. The teaching profession has not been unreasonable in its approach to the Minister. The right hon. Gentleman knows, and he could tell the House, that for many months the teachers have been in careful negotiation with him on this very subject.
  I want to refer briefly to four matters which require clearing up. Due to equal pay, the young man who enters the teaching service today will draw a smaller pension than the young woman who enters today, because he is denied his two years for military service. The teaching profession asks the Minister whether, in Committee, he will make it possible for these young men to buy their way in. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why buy?"] This is the proposal that we are making. We are not being excessive in our demand. We ask that they shall cover the contribution for two years to enable them to have the same pension as the women.
  Secondly, there is the ever-dwindling number of men in the profession who served in the 1914–18 war. Those years are not allowed to count for pensions. The Minister, with such a little gesture, could have removed a long-standing grievance of the teaching profession. He has not chosen to do so. The appeal which my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham made about payments being
  244
  made monthly, which he described as a minor point, is nonetheless a very real point. The pitiful plea of our pensioners today is that they shall get hold of their money sooner. What would it have cost the Minister to provide in the Bill that pensions should be paid monthly instead of quarterly? It is a mark of the slovenly approach to the Bill which the right hon. Gentleman must have made that he should have committed all these errors.
  At present, the teachers have the grievance that all their service is contributory service but the scheme allows a pension only for completed years of service. Therefore, a teacher can pay superannuation contributions for the last 11 months of his service but he receives nothing in return. We have said to the Minister, "Why not include in the Measure a proposal to count all contributory service?" We have not met with any response. It is unreasonable of the Minister to expect teachers to remain silent when the things which they resent are going forward and those things for which they ask so much are being held back.
  Above all, I want to speak about the widows' and orphans' benefits. What is not in this Bill is causing as much heart-burning to the teaching profession as what is in it. I was grateful to hear the Minister indicate that he is willing to make another approach to the local authorities on this question, but he is going to ask the local authorities, not the teachers. He is going to use the docile Parliamentary majority behind him to bulldoze his will upon the teaching profession. Why be so harsh with the teachers and so sensitive with the local authorities?
  There is no provision today for the widow and dependants of a teacher who dies in active service. He creates a social and a human problem. Here is an extract from a letter which I received this morning from one of the leaders of the teachers in Lancashire:
  "Last September a teacher aged 47 moved from Plymouth to take up a position in Liverpool. He did this in order to be able to live nearer his parents whose home is near Wigan. After six weeks or so this man contracted polio and died in a few days. After having incurred the expense of moving and taking a new house, obviously most of his resources have gone. He leaves a widow and four children aged from 4 to 16. The eldest a girl, is taking her G.C.E. next year and the second, a boy, has just commenced at the

  245
  grammar school. I have been informed that during the past year there have been three such cases as this in Wigan"—
  That is in one town. The letter continues:
  "where a teacher has died in service and left dependants. In two of these cases an approach has already had to be made to a charitable organisation."
  This kind of case is a nightmare to the teaching profession, and to deny them the benefits of the widows and orphans scheme is to deny them professional status. Yesterday I received the case of a south of England teacher who died after a long and painful illness, cancer, at the age of 50. He, too, has left four children. He, having used his resources through the long illness, had to be buried by the poor law.
  Mr. Powell: By National Insurance.
  Mr. Thomas: He was buried by National Assistance—
  Mr. Angus Maude: As of right.
  Mr. Thomas: But £20 does not cover a funeral today. Surely hon. Gentlemen opposite are not going to argue on that mean, niggardly basis with me? I am talking about the teaching profession, to which so many hon. Members on both sides of the House pay high tribute. I am speaking about a noble profession which gives so much to the nation, a profession in whose hands we place the well-being of our children and the next generation. They are asking for the right to make a contribution themselves for the sake of their fellow teachers. They are not asking for charity. We are saying to the Minister, "Give to us what the House has already given to the civil servants; give to us what already has been approved in almost all of the public nationalised industries." Why should the teachers be held back from what is only common decency, namely, that we shall be able to help each other in a time of trouble.
  The Minister will be aware that there are hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House who gave their word to the teaching profession at the General Election that they would not support a scheme which was not approved by the teachers. Hon. Members might think that was going a long way, but the time for thinking that was when the promise was made. They made the promise. Their names are known. I trust that tonight they will at
  246
  least abstain from voting for a Measure which is resented in every school room in these islands. Not within my lifetime have I known within the profession such strong feeling, and I hope that the Minister will take opportunity in Committee to improve the Bill if, unhappily, it receives its Second Reading tonight.
  5.46 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. Jennings: I suppose there comes a time in the life of everyone when there is a clash of loyalties and that that time also comes in the life of an hon. Member in this House. It has come to me early in my Parliamentary life. I am unhappy about it, and I have thought carefully and hard as to what should be my attitude on such an occasion when my loyalty to my party clashes with my loyalty to my colleagues in the teaching profession.
  For many years, as long as I can remember thinking politically, I have been a loyal supporter of my party, and I have been proud of my party. In my own way I have suffered for that loyalty. I may suffer again. [An HON. MEMBER: "The hon. Gentleman looks well on it."] Yes, I do fairly well. [An HON. MEMBER: "Come over to this side of the House."] Tonight I have to make a vital decision as to whether I support this Bill, whether I abstain from voting, or whether I go into the Lobby against it.
  I am not worried about the plaudits of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Mr. Walter Monslow: But they help.
  Mr. Jennings: I am grateful for them. Some other time I shall get other types of plaudits. I want to say that my convictions in this matter have led me, after considerable mental worry, to decide that unless I hear anything different from what I have heard up to now, I shall be obliged to vote against the Bill.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Gentleman is not the only one.
  Mr. Jennings: Hon. Gentlemen might let me get on with my speech. Facetious comments are out of place at a time when a man new to this House has made the most vital decision that a new man can make. At least I deserve a sympathetic hearing from hon. Gentlemen opposite. I have made this decision, and I do not know what is in store for me either from

  247
  my friends in my division or elsewhere. I am prepared to stand up to the decision I have made and, I hope, to justify it. I have said that if I do not hear anything different from what I have heard up to now, I shall go into the other Lobby.
  In my teaching career I have grown up with the superannuation scheme. I was a pupil teacher in 1920, which seems a long time ago. I started teaching as a fully qualified teacher in 1923, at the time when the teaching profession had enjoyed four years of a non-contributory scheme, and I came into the profession when a compulsory levy of 5 per cent. had been placed upon it. I had been in the teaching profession two years when the compulsory levy was dealt with by an Act of Parliament and became part and parcel of our salary system. I have grown up with the scheme, and the vicissitudes of the Burnham scale and the superannuation scheme have been my vicissitudes.
  I want to look at the background against which the Bill has been evolved. There are three parts of the canvas at which one has to look. There are the Ministry, the local authorities, and the teachers. The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) said it was the duty of the Minister to fight a battle for education against the Treasury. I believe the Minister has fought a very good battle against the Treasury in that we are having no cut in the Education Estimates for next year.
  Mr. Percy Daines: No applause for that.
  Mr. Jennings: The facts are there to prove it. Let us do without the applause.
  We have to be fair about the Minister, and we must say that he has gathered to himself within the ranks of our teachers a fund of well-being and good will known by very few Ministers. I am sorry that by this Measure he will kill a good deal of it. I have heard references to him as a practical visionary.
  The local authorities represent the second part of the canvas and I think they are the villains of the piece. I have been told that the writing off of the past deficiency represents a free gift to teachers. It is nothing of the sort. Whether or not the amount is £200 million, I do not know and do not care; it is, at all events, many
  248
  millions. It is a free gift to the local authorities, because it was their duty at the beginning to underwrite the scheme, but they did not do so. They were absolved from their responsibility to underwrite any deficiency. Consequently, if past deficiency is to be written off, it is written off in favour of the local authorities and not the teachers.
  Mr. Maude: In the interests of the local authorities, I do not think that remark ought to be allowed to pass. It is fantastic to say that the local authorities had a duty to underwrite the deficiency earlier. The 1925 Act put no burden upon them to do that, and they were acting in accordance with the statute.
  Mr. Jennings: I am comparing the schemes with other schemes outlined in the Working Group's Report. In almost every other case when a scheme was started the employers underwrote the prospective deficiency. That is what I meant when I said that it is a free gift not to the teachers but to the local authorities.
  The third part of the canvas I want to paint relates to the teachers. I want to say something about their attitude. Like he hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas), never in my teaching career have I known a time when feeling was so intense and teachers were so angry against n proposed scheme. We have heard the history of the scheme. It was begun with good intentions by Dr. Fisher to attract people into the profession. Burnham scales were instituted to give stability to the salaries. A non-contributory pensions scheme was provided. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) said that our future goal—not our goal tonight—should be a non-contributory pensions scheme. Are we to return to 1918? If there is an idea of giving the teachers a non-contributory scheme at some time in the future, why should their contributions be increased now? After teachers had enjoyed a non-contributory scheme for four years, a compulsory levy was imposed, and, finally, a 5 per cent. contribution was written into the Act.
  The result of successive attacks by Governments of all shades upon the standards of teachers—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, in saying, "Governments of all shades," I do not forget 1931 when the Labour Cabinet—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—it is on record—decided to

  249
  reduce the salaries of teachers by 15 per cent. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is on record. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should read Phillip Snowden's speeches. I contend that the teachers, from their experience of successive Governments, have now come to the conclusion that they cannot trust Governments any more.
  Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: Is not that the case of a Government under Mr. Ramsay MacDonald which was repudiated by the Labour Party, leading to the split?
  Mr. Jennings: It is on record that before the Labour Government dissolved, the Cabinet had already decided—hon. Members opposite should read Phillip Snowden's speeches—to reduce teachers' salaries by 15 per cent., and that was a Socialist Cabinet. Teachers, owing to the treatment they have received from successive Governments, have now decided they can no longer trust Governments.
  Mr. J. Johnson: What is the hon. Member here for?
  Mr. Jennings: I am here to do a job of work, if hon. Members opposite will let me get on with it. Teachers have been in the vanguard for cuts, but they have been in the rearguard for the disbursement of largesse. I say very sincerely that the feeling among teachers today is not political but professional. Tory teachers, who tell me that they have voted Tory for years and will do so again—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]—are full of resentment at this Measure.
  Our teachers have a record of steadiness and stability second to none in the professions or industry. They are an example to the rest of the country in—[HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] I will tell hon. Members opposite how—the way they carry out Burnham negotiations and recognise the results; but there are now dangers ahead. A contented teacher is a national asset, but if we have teachers who are discontented, who seethe with anger, and who feel resentment, they will not be national assets. Is it worth while losing this valuable asset for a measly 1 per cent.? It is like selling one's birthright for a mess of pottage.
  I say that the accumulated effects of all that has happened over the last 30 years have led teachers into a situation in which
  250
  they are becoming dangerously minded. [HON. MEMBERS: "Is that a threat?"] It is not a threat. Teachers see other people in the country holding a pistol at the Government's head and getting what they want. The teachers have never done that, but I warn the House that the temper—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite must not be facetious. It is no good the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Monslow) talking about the National Union of Railwaymen, for it has held a pistol at the Government's head and got away with it. I am not going to have hon. Members scoffing like that when they are guilty of the very thing of which I am saying the teachers have never been guilty.
  I now turn to the Bill itself. [Interruption.] It has been a jolly good introduction. It is about time somebody wrote a book about the services of the teachers to this country. I will proceed to the Bill, if hon. Gentlemen will allow me. The Bill is a decided improvement on the last one. I accept without question the actuarial report on deficiencies. The Bill contains certain new benefits. We are told that they have been transferred from the last Bill, and we were told in the last Bill that the cost was not appreciable, three-tenths of 1 per cent. and, shared 50–50 between local authorities and teachers, that would be three-twentieths of 1 per cent. The teachers are incensed about the 6 per cent. We say that we have been singled out. The Minister denied that and said that other professions were worse off. He instanced the clergy and junior Ministers.
  In salary conditions we cannot compare ourselves with the clergy, nor with junior Ministers. I wish we could compare with the latter. If successive Governments have successfully depressed the value of junior Ministers, that is no argument why schoolteachers should be depressed. [Interruption.] I shall be pleased to see how the cheerful people opposite on the Front Bench below the Gangway vote tonight and how seriously they vote. Why the extra 1 per cent.? We are told that it is because of improvements in benefits and salaries and because of increased earlier retirement and increased longevity. Are we the only people who satisfy all those conditions? Why are not all the other schemes treated in this way, or—and this is an important point—are we

  251
  the first to be treated like this and are others to follow?
  This is a cut in salary at a time when everybody else is receiving salary increases. [HON. MEMBERS: "We are not."] They have hope. The argument is that it is all right to pay the extra 1 per cent., because we can go to Burnham and ask for it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Go to Burton."] Let us hope that we can "knock the Bill for a Burton." We have a strong enough case to take to the Burnham Committee now without needing the argument about the extra 1 per cent.
  Mr. G. Thomas: Will the hon. Member deal with the point that the Minister might withhold his proposals until the Burnham Committee has given the increase of which he has spoken?
  Mr. Jennings: I missed that.
  Mr. Thomas: That is why I said it. Will he deal with the point that the Minister might withhold his proposals until the Burnham Committee has granted the substantial increase to which he has referred?
  Mr. Jennings: I will leave that to hon. Members on the other side of the House.
  The point is that this "go to Burnham" argument exposes the whole weakness of the scheme to impose an extra 1 per cent. on us, and conclusively proves to me that it is not at all necessary. My right hon. Friend the Minister said to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, when dealing with other schemes, that it was the case that they paid a lower rate of interest but that there was a contrast in the rate of contribution paid by the employees and the employers.
  Let us examine four typical schemes taken from the appendix to the Working Group's Report. The local government scheme is like ours; 6 per cent. and 6 per cent., but it is funded and the interest is 3¼ per cent. National Health: interest is 2½ per cent. and the rates are 6 per cent. and 8 per cent. The British Electricity Authority: the rate is 5 per cent. for the employee and twice as much for the employer and the rate of interest is 3½ per cent. on the pension fund and 2 per cent. on the lump sum fund. In that case conditions of rates of interest are almost identical with ours, and yet employees pay 6 per cent. and employers 8 per cent. In
  252
  the N.C.B., for normal benefits, 4 per cent. is paid by the employee and 8 per cent. by the employer, and, although the scheme is funded, 3¼ per cent. on credit accounts. The point is that teachers are at a considerable disadvantage when they compare their schemes with others.
  Much of the ground I had intended to cover about widows and orphans has already been dealt with. I will come to the alternative. It is no use criticising unless one is prepared to put something else in the place of that which one criticises. I have been led for some years—[An HON. MEMBER: "You have."]—and rightly, to the conclusion that some drastic reform in educational finances is necessary. That is tied up with the whole question of local government reform. But the arguments used for the evolution of the Bill have convinced me more than ever that we have to approach finances in the educational world in an altogether new light. There is tremendous scope for investigation in that respect.
  However, we cannot bring that to bear upon the present Bill. The Working Group's Report laid down that 11½ per cent. would be sufficient in England and Wales and 11 per cent. in Scotland. The Minister insists on the round figure of 12 per cent. Arithmetically at least, the solution is simple—5 per cent. from the teachers and 7 per cent. from the L.E.A.'s. If we carry out the scheme in accordance with the appendix of the Working Group's Report, that would be 11½ per cent. and teachers could pay 5 per cent. and employers 6½ per cent., which is a measly ½ per cent. more than they are now being asked to pay.
  In view of all this, I feel obliged to oppose the Bill. I therefore plead with the Minister to withdraw it and to have second thoughts. I am so grateful to the House for a very courteous hearing.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Short: The whole House will sympathise with the hon. Member for Burton (Mr. Jennings) in the difficult decision he has had to make. He finds himself a member of the Parliamentary Conservative Party on the one hand and a financially sponsored candidate of the N.U.T. on the other. He is in a difficult position, and so long as he retains his membership of these two bodies, he will find himself in continual trouble. The

  253
  best thing he can do is to relinquish one of them as quickly as he can.
  The Minister stressed the need for agreement on the part of the local authorities. Indeed, he went so far as to say that we could not have the widows' and orphans' pension scheme, because he could not get agreement with the local authorities. It is, therefore, very relevant and important to point out that he is going ahead with the Bill, and with the 6 per cent. contribution, with the entire teaching profession against him. The N.U.T., the N.U.W.T. and N.A.S. and the Joint Four are unanimously opposed to the Bill.
  I have received a great many letters from teacher constituents. I will read only a short part from one which is typical of those which we have all received. This letter says:
  "Why should teachers be singled out for a cut in salary when everyone else is being given or being considered for increases? This will only still further justifiably annoy an already disgruntled, dissatisfied profession. Teachers seem to be singled out for kicks as being most unlikely to hit back."
  That is a typical letter, the kind of letter that all hon. Members are receiving.
  The Minister will have noted a report of a special conference of the National Union of Teachers which was held a week or so ago. There were 2,000 delegates at the conference representing 218,000 teachers, and they unanimously opposed this Bill. What is even more significant is that an amendment moved from the floor of conference was also carried unanimously and accepted by the Executive. I do not speak for the N.U.T., I am quoting from the Schoolmaster, which is available on the bookstalls. The amendment said that the executive shall
  "employ, if necessary, the full resources of the Union to defeat the Minister's proposal."
  It is perhaps more significant still that a further amendment was moved, though, because of the good sense of the delegates, it was not carried. This amendment instructed the executive:
  "to make all necessary arrangements for the stoppage of the performance of all extraneous duties of every character, including dinner duties, throughout the country as from 1st January, 1956."
  As I say, because of the good sense of the union, that was not carried. But it is significant that that sort of amendment should have been moved, and it gives some indication of the intensity of
  254
  the reaction of the teachers to this imposition.
  It has been said during this debate, and quite rightly, that no other body has had its contributions increased when its superannuation schemes have been revised. The Minister talked a good deal about the local government scheme. I wish to point out three things about that scheme. First, there is the point, which has not been sufficiently stressed, that the local government scheme was revised in 1937, and at that time the officers in the scheme were not called on to pay increased contributions.
  Under the revision of this scheme all teachers, those already in the scheme and new entrants, would be called on to pay the 6 per cent. Secondly, the local government scheme is the only one, of almost the only other scheme, in which the employee pays the same contribution as the employer. The British Electricity Authority and the National Coal Board schemes have both been mentioned. In both those schemes the employer pays twice the amount paid by the employee.
  Also, in the case of the local government scheme, local authorities agree to meet deficiencies. Had there been a provision of that kind in the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, the present position would never have arisen. If the local authorities had made up the deficiencies under the present scheme we should not have been in trouble about it today. It has already been pointed out that the original Fisher scheme of teachers' superannuation was non-contributory, and, as part of the Geddes economies, an Act of Parliament was passed imposing a 5 per cent. contribution. At that time it was pointed out that that was a temporary measure. However, the teachers came to regard that 5 per cent. as part of their conditions of service. Since then there have been two abortive attempts to raise it to 6 per cent., and now there is this third one.
  The Schoolmaster commented on that last week:
  "Small wonder they"—
  that is the teachers—
  "suspect that the verbal adulation accorded the teaching profession"—
  I think the Minister indulged in a good bit of that today—
  "is never intended to be converted into coin of the realm. Small wonder teachers remain dissatisfied with their material conditions of

  255
  service and feel bitterly aggrieved at an attempt to worsen them and at a time when the one thing they are calling for is their improvement."
  The previous Bill suggested a 1 per cent. increase in the contribution, to liquidate the deficiency, so we were told, or, at any rate, two-thirds of it. This Bill, promises the Minister, will liquidate the actuarial deficiency entirely. It is as well to point out that it will be very nearly forty years before there will be an actual deficiency as opposed to an actuarial deficiency—almost forty years before the scheme will be "in the red" actually.
  Mr. Peter Remnant: Does the hon. Gentleman mean cash?
  Mr. Short: The hon. Member knows a great deal about cash, being a brewer. Of course I am talking about cash—the stuff they buy beer with.
  Mr. Remnant: I do not know why the hon. Gentleman needed to bring in the question of brewing, but surely he realises the difference between a cash deficiency or surplus and an actuarial deficit? If he does not, I do not know what qualifications he has for discussing the matter at all.
  Mr. Short: The hon. Gentleman is underlining my point.
  At this moment there is a surplus in the Account, or would be if it were funded, of £232 million, and, as I say, it would be forty years, or very nearly, before the outgoings from the Account in any one year were greater than the money coming in, and the whole of that surplus was expended. Therefore, it appears that the extra 1 per cent. is required to meet other factors altogether which are not peculiar to teaching but are common to other groups of employees, but to which, so far as I know, no other body of workers has been asked to contribute.
  There are three other factors. The first is the longer life-span of teachers. On the whole, they are living two years longer. I should have thought, whether it be ironical or not, that we should congratulate them on that, and not try to penalise them by reducing their salaries.
  The second point is that teachers are retiring a little earlier. On the average, they are retiring about a year earlier,
  256
  and I should have thought that the reason would be appreciated. In the last few years, teachers have had a bad time. They have had abnormally large classes, and many of the older teachers—when I say "older" I mean teachers approaching sixty—are in ill-health at the moment. Teachers are getting out as quickly as possible so long as large classes continue.
  The third reason which has been put forward is the recent salary increases. Of course, the Government are to blame for that. They have made no attempt to control the cost of living, which has continued to soar, and teachers and other bodies of workers have had to have continual salary increases to meet it. The Minister argued as though, when salaries went up, the contributions from teachers did not. It is as well to point out that if salaries go up, contributions go up as well. The hon. Members for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) said that we should ignore inflationary factors of this kind. So far as I am aware, in all other schemes the operation of such factors as longevity, early retirement and salary increases, are almost universally regarded by the employers as part of the normal burden that they have to bear.
  I do not think that the 1 per cent. can be justified by those factors, which, as I say, are not peculiar to teachers, but apply equally to other employees. Nor can the 1 per cent. be justified by the additional minor benefits in the Bill. It has been estimated that all the additional benefits in the Bill—counting three-eightieths instead of one-thirtieth and so on—if added together, cost roughly ·3 of 1 per cent., which is hardly worth mentioning, and would certainly not justify the I per cent. increase. In any case, even that ·3 of 1 per cent. is to be shared between the local authorities and the teachers.
  The one major benefit which the teachers really wanted—a widows' and orphans' pension scheme—is not included. Clause 8 is no answer at all in that respect. It represents a very small advance upon the present arrangement, by which a teacher can allocate part of his lump sum to his widow. Such a scheme is the one benefit, as the Minister said, for which the teachers would have been prepared to pay an extra contribution. The Minister said that local authorities would

  257
  not agree to a widows' and orphans' pension scheme if it cost them any more, but it is as well to point out that although the teachers do not agree to this 6 per cent. they are having to pay it just the same.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Mr. G. Thomas) has pointed out that many Conservative Members told N.U.T. delegations whom they met in May of this year that they would not support any new superannuation Bill unless it had the support of all the teachers. This Bill has not the support of any teachers. All the teachers' organisations are unanimous in their opposition to it. I hope that those Conservative Members who made such promises to the N.U.T. will do as the hon. Member for Burton (Mr. Jennings) said he was going, to do, and oppose the Bill.
  Apart from the hon. Member for Burton, only one hon. Member opposite has had the courage to announce that he will abstain, namely, the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby). According to the Press today, he said that he regards the Bill as a breach of faith—and that is what it is.
  There is another Conservative Member of Parliament who speaks for the N.U.T., and we shall all be interested to hear what he has to say—and even more to see how he votes tonight. If those two categories of hon. Members opposite—those who speak for the N.U.T. and those who gave specific promises to N.U.T. delegations—want a precedent for voting against the Government, they should look at the one mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart), who spoke first from this side of the House in this debate. On April, 1922, when the 5 per cent. was first introduced, the Government were beaten. There is no earthly reason why they should not be beaten tonight, if only hon. Members opposite will stick to the promises which they made.
  In his peroration, the Minister tried to persuade the House that he was reducing teachers' salaries by about 4s. a week in order to improve their status. It is really humbug for him to say that he is taking away 4s. or 5s. a week so that their status will be improved. It is argued that the 1 per cent. amounts to very little in individual cases. We have heard that argument a great many times. It represents a parsimonious attitude to-
  258
  wards the teaching profession. It is certainly an attitude which will affect its standing in the public esteem.
  It is also argued that teachers should accept the Bill and get the 1 per cent. back from the Burnham Committee. The Minister practically said that. He did not really say it, but he went as near to saying it as he could. He said, "The Burnham Committee is meeting now," and that was certainly the impression he gave.
  Mr. R. Moss: The Minister not only said that, but, when the question was put to him again, he nodded his head vigorously. He seems to be opposing the general economic policy of his right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Short: He certainly practically said it.
  That is really a foolish argument, for two reasons. First, there is no guarantee that teachers would get back the 1 per cent. or, indeed, anything, from the Burnham Committee. Secondly, it is really stupid to say, "We shall take something from you with this hand and give it back to you with the other." I am not an economist, but I should have thought that that was an inflationary thing to do.
  The Bill is based upon invalid premises, which do not bear examination. Secondly, it is unanimously opposed by the teachers. Thirdly, a considerable body of public opinion is against it. I urge the Minister, even at this late hour, to withdraw the Clause which imposes the extra 1 per cent. I am quite sure that my hon. Friends would facilitate the passage of the rest of the Bill. We urge him to withdraw Clause 2 because teachers everywhere look upon it as a reduction in salary. I am quite sure that it would have extremely injurious effects upon the teaching profession, and thus upon the youth of the country and our national well-being generally.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. John Harvey: In rising to address the House for the first time. I ask for its customary indulgence, the more so since I have sought permission to intervene in this debate only on the spur of the moment. I am very conscious of the fact that I have many school teachers in my constituency. I have met them, and I am indebted to many of them for the help which they gave in securing my

  259
  election to this House. I think that I have heard from them all in the last few days. Before I proceed any further on that point I should like, as this is the first occasion upon which I have addressed the House, to pay a tribute to my predecessor, who served his constituents very well for a great many years.
  shall do my best to emulate his example while I am privileged to be here.
  I shall find no undue difficulty in supporting the Government this evening, despite the representations which have been made to me, because I believe that this is only one stage along a very necessary road for the reconsideration of the whole question of the employment of teachers.
  I gather that it is a tradition that one should avoid being unduly controversial in one's first utterance in this Chamber. I cannot completely avoid some degree of controversy if I announce that I am going to support the Measure, but I also want to point out that I do not wholly follow the argument that this increase from 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. is necessarily a cut in salary. If I decide to increase some superannuation benefit for which I may be paying at this moment, I expect to have to pay an increased premium, but I do not regard it as a cut in my salary, because I hope to get it back at some future stage. If we are improving the superannuation benefits which will ultimately be payable to teachers—or the conditions under which those benefits will be payable—surely it is a deferred payment rather than a cut in salary.
  I have read a great many articles of one sort and another about the merits of this controversy. I recall that when the original Bill came before the House in 1954 the Economist was not particularly friendly towards it. I therefore looked with interest at what it had to say this time. It has made two brief reviews of the situation. The first was on 29th October, when it ended with these words:
  "The teachers will no doubt have several minor points to argue about the new Bill. But if they raise as great a storm about it as about the old one, they will be showing a poor sense of proportion. They will also deserve far less sympathy."
  On 26th November, the Economist said:
  260
  "It therefore seems probable that Members of Parliament and others must expect the same shoal of protesting letters, and of visits from indignant teacher-constituents, as they had to bear at the time of"—
  what was a little unkindly called—
  "the Horsbrugh Bill. But this time they should stand fast."
  The Economist went on to give some quite cogent reasons for doing so. On that basis, and on the basis of what I propose to say next, I shall support the Measure.
  Now I come to the main part of what I want to say. I should like to follow the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) as to what the teachers have to work towards. They should find a great deal of sympathy in all quarters of the House for a superannuation scheme which would be non-contributory in the long run.
  The present system under which teachers' salaries are decided and reviewed is out of tune with the times. The whole system needs to be reconsidered. I have gone on record in my constituency, and I say for the benefit of hon. Members opposite that I have gone on record since the Election and not before it, as saying that if any section of the community is entitled to urgent reconsideration of its salary scale it is the teaching profession. Unless that profession is squarely based on these matters, future generations will suffer.
  I would emphasise that this point of view will continue to govern my utterances in this Chamber on these matters in future. It is a point of view for which there is just as much sympathy on this side of the House as on the Opposition side. It is futile to argue, for instance, about the Communist menace among school teachers. The right answer is to attract into our schools the sort of people we want, and then our educational system will benefit, the Communist menace will disappear, and a great deal will have been done to safeguard the future of the country.
  I press Her Majesty's Government, in taking this step today, to regard it as only one step on a road leading to a very necessary review of the whole system under which teachers are employed, and as leading to a very necessary reconsidera-

  261
  tion of the way in which the rewards of the teaching profession can be expanded. I attended last night the meeting at Woodford Green at which my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) spoke, when he referred to the need for increasing technological education. There is such a need. Unless we solve this problem of how to attract into the profession the sort of people we need, he difficulty will continue to be before us.
  The great storm of protests that has been aroused over this extra 1 per cent. should not so much direct our attention to it: that would be to lead our attention astray. It should direct our attention to the great demands of one sort or another that have been made of the teaching profession in recent years, and to the difficulties under which the teachers have been required to carry out their duties. It is when viewed in the light of those demands and those difficulties that this I per cent. looks almost like the last straw. If we review the situation, and recognise that in reviewing the whole question of teachers' employment we shall be doing the greatest possible service to the future of this country, the House will have benefited from this debate today and the teaching profession will benefit in the future.
  6.35 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: It is my privilege to follow the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. J. Harvey), and to congratulate him on having got over the first and probably the most terrifying of the Parliamentary hurdles, and to have become fully qualified to enter the cut-and-thrust and rough-and-tumble of our debates.
  When I first entered this House I got plenty of advice about how to make my maiden speech and when to make it. No one ever told me, and I am sure that no one ever told the hon. Member, just to sit, listen and speak on the spur of the moment. It says much for him that he has done what he has done, and with brevity, which always commends itself to this House. He speech was one of lucidity, learning and sincerity. On this side of the House we much appreciated his generous tribute to our former colleague, Mr. Harry Wallace. Many of us will look forward to hearing the hon.
  262
  Member again, when he is not confined to being non-controversial. Whether the members of his own Front Bench thought he was not controversial, I could not say.
  I have not the handicap of having to be polite to people of or being non-controversial, and it may be just as well. Today we resume a battle that has been brewing for some time for teachers' pensions and superannuation. There have already been casualties. The first casualty was the Minister, the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh). It must be a matter of concern and amazement to all that these people who rallied to ensure that she was discomforted and eventually discarded are silent today. Those colleagues of hers are faced with a Bill which in essence is the Bill which she brought forward.
  Some of those colleagues took great trouble at the General Election to tell how they assisted in her political assassination and to parade before the teachers as being responsible for the defeat of her Teachers (Superannuation) Bill. I live in the town of Ayr and my Member of Parliament, who sits on the Government side of the House just behind where the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side is sitting, is the hon. Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore). I have here his election address, and it may be of interest to the right hon. Lady. I want to read what he said at that time, if I can find it. I took the trouble to mark the number of times the word "I" was used, and the number of marks which I made has confused me.
  "We want more, better and cheaper houses …"
  No, that is not it. Here we are:
  "Education: Perhaps the teachers will recall that I fought their battle, both publicly and privately—"
  that is, against the right hon. Lady—
  "against the proposed Superannuation Bill, and they will not forget that we won."
  Where is the hon. Gentleman today, and what is he doing with regard to this Bill? What is he going to do tonight in. regard to the promises which he made to the teachers in Ayrshire. They are still concerned? I am perfectly sure that the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will agree with me that he has not got a friend today amongst the 28,000 school teachers in Scotland.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. Henderson Stewart): Oh, yes; a great many.
  Mr. Ross: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that among all the correspondents who write to me, and they run into hundreds in Ayrshire alone, there is not one single supporter of the Bill.
  There is not one single teacher in Scotland who thinks that this is other than a cut in salary, and who does not regard this action as cavalier treatment for a service and a profession to which, constantly and sickeningly, we hear lip-service being given from the Government side of the House.
  The teachers are discontented, and they are unanimous in their opposition to this Bill. They see that the second casualty in this superannuation battle is the status of their own profession and the effect which that is bound to have on the quality and number of recruits. I am perfectly sure that, as a result of this Bill and of this treatment of something that vitally concerns teachers—who wanted a superannuation Bill, but not a Bill like this—there will be no rush of recruits to the teaching profession. The teachers want a decent superannuation Bill, and they are prepared to pay extra for extra benefits, but it is almost an anachronism that today we should be discussing a superannuation Bill which makes no provision, other than by the re-allocation of existing benefits by the teachers themselves, for widows' and dependants' pensions. That should have been attended to long ago.
  There has been no justification at all from the Minister or from anybody on the Government side of the House for the 2 per cent. increase. There have been suggestions that this Bill will put the fund right, but there is no fund. There never has been a fund, and, from the inception of the scheme in 1925, there never was meant to be a fund. That is the key to the whole business. If the teachers now see this increase imposed, and are given the assurance by the Minister that this is the last time that it will happen, because future deficiencies will be looked after, either by the Government accepting the responsibility or by their passing it on to the local authorities, how does the Minister expect the teachers to accept that statement in good faith?
  In 1918, we had a non-contributory pension scheme, but in 1922 along came
  264
  the "Geddes Axe" and there was a 5 per cent. compulsory levy, while in 1925 a scheme was brought in which provided for a 5 per cent. compulsory contributory superannuation service. There was never meant to be a fund. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has been doing some political dancing today, because it was obvious from the way in which he finished his speech that his heart was in the opposition which we are putting up against the Bill. The hon. Gentleman does not believe in the Bill, and does not think it is right.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to what happened in 1925, but that scheme was perfectly clear. I have read over the Second Reading and the Committee stage debates of that Bill, and I have marvelled at the gifts of prophecy that seem to have been scattered through the House of Commons in those days. Perhaps it was not so much the gift of prophecy as the fact that hon. Members had lived through the seven years from 1918 to 1925 and had seen how Governments in those days had not lived up to their promises to the teachers.
  Let us see exactly what was said. I think this is important, because it underlies the whole attitude of the teachers to this Bill. It is a matter of principle, not just a question of 1 per cent. Lord Eustace Percy was answering a critical letter by Lord Emmott, Chairman of a Committee which had investigated the whole question of superannuation, in which he expressed a fear that the result of not funding the contribution would be that local authorities and teachers would have to contribute more than 7 per cent. of salary. This is what he said, and we must remember that this was a Tory Minister of Education speaking:
  "That is an entire mistake. The point of our proposal is that, whereas under Lord Emmott's fund, it would have been the fund that was responsible for finding the benefits, and not the Treasury, under our proposal the Treasury is solely responsible for finding the cash to pay the benefits. While it is perfectly true that 45 years hence the total annual superannuation benefit will amount to a figure roughly equivalent to 20 per cent. of the salaries bill at that time"—
  we are getting nearer to that 45 years, and that is why the Government are taking action—
  "that burden will fall, as to 7 per cent. only, on the local authorities and the teachers—that is to say, the local authorities and the teachers

  265
  will be paying 7 per cent., precisely as they do at the present moment, and the Treasury will be paying 13 per cent. The whole increased liability must fall on the Treasury."
  Here comes the important point:
  "I think Lord Emmott has called this account a bogus fund. It does not pretend to be a fund, but it does pretend to be, and it is, a valid account of liability as between the Treasury and the contributors … the Treasury bears the whole extra liability."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1925; Vol. 183, c. 1783–4.]
  Time and time again today, the Minister of Education and the only back bencher on the Government side who has given even half-hearted support to the right hon. Gentleman—the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West—have referred to this Account as a fund. It is not a fund, and if the Minister is standing by the argument of actuarial deficits, he is retrospectively smearing the Minister of Education of 1925 for having participated in a swindle against the teachers, because it was deliberate policy then that the Treasury would not, at the inception, pay anything at all.
  One has only to read the Second Reading debate to see that, because taxation was high and liabilities were high at that time, the Government deliberately deferred the participation of the Treasury until such time—45 years after 1925—as it was then estimated the Government would have to meet the liability. The very thing which the Government are doing today is passing that liability on to the teachers and the local education authorities, and that is a breach of faith to which the teachers are quite justified in reacting strongly.
  I am really surprised at the tame rebels on the other side of the House, who took speedy action against the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side, and today are allowing the present Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland to get away with it. [An HON. MEMBER: "A Ministerial reshuffle."] There were two Ministers' names on the first Bill, and I do not know why the Secretary of State for Scotland always seems to escape responsibility. If it was right for the right hon. Lady to have to give up her post, the right hon. Gentleman should also have done so, but we see that the name of the right hon. Gentleman, which appeared on the earlier Bill, also appears on this one, and, so far as the teachers of Scotland are concerned, they look
  266
  upon him as having once again been guilty of a breach of faith.
  There are certain benefits in the Bill, but they amount only to three-tenths of 1 per cent., and the teachers' share, on the present estimate, will be about three-twentieths of 1 per cent. It is nothing at all. No justification for the 2 per cent. has been made out either for England or for Scotland—and if it is not right for England it cannot be right for Scotland.
  The actuaries have said that an extra 1 per cent. would be sufficient to cover the actuarial deficiency plus the additional benefit; that is to say, 11 per cent.—½ per cent. each from teachers and education authorities. Nevertheless the Government insist on a 1 per cent. margin for which, even on an actuarial basis, there is no justification—and the actuarial basis itself is not justified by the 1925 position. I really deplore the whole attitude of the Government and of the Secretary of State for Scotland to this business.
  The right hon. Lady's trouble was that she took time to try to persuade the teachers but miscalculated the date of the General Election. There was no time for argument so she was thrown aside. The Bill was dropped, not to win over the teachers to accept the justice of what was proposed, but to win over their votes. The two right hon. Gentlemen who have sponsored this Bill have not made that mistake. They do not seek to persuade the teachers. This Bill was printed ten days ago, and the teachers in Ayrshire have not yet been able to get copies in order properly to read it. We are rushed into a debate, proclamations and promises are made, and there is no effort to persuade the Committee or the teachers that this proposal is right. The real fact is that the right hon. Lady was unfortunate in that her Bill came just before an Election—this one comes immediately after one. The Government do not need to worry about the teachers' votes now, and they are determined to push this Measure through.
  Who gains by it? The teachers gain little or nothing. It is of no avail to say that, for the first time, they have security. That was said in 1925. One of the best speeches on the subject was made by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove), then the Member for Wellingborough; and the hon. Member for the Scottish Universities, then Mr. Cowan,

  267
  said that at last teachers had security and a worth-while settlement of a vexed problem. It was supposed to be a settlement, but once again it has turned out to be a betrayal of the teachers—a salary cut—an unjust discrimination against the teachers in relation to every other superannuation scheme.
  It was wonderful to hear the Minister of Education. I do not know who is to be the next Minister of Education—it might be Harry Seccombe or someone else from the "Goon Show." Whenever the Minister wished to compare the advantages that teachers were getting he referred to the other superannuation schemes; whenever we referred the other superannuation schemes he said that they were not comparable. He cannot have it both ways. We really have to look back to what was decided by the House in 1925. In 1925 a definite pledge was made by the Minister of Education of the time, who said that we were starting on something new.
  He asked if it had not struck hon. Members—and I am paraphrasing what Lord Eustace Percy said—that amongst all the economies and "axes" of the Geddes Committee one branch of the public service was not touched at all—the Civil Service. The reason, he explained, was that its non-contributory scheme had been going for so long—the rights were so ancient—that no one questioned it. He said that within forty years it would be true in respect of teachers; no one would question their rights or suggest that they should pay more.
  He presented the 1925 Bill, and there are Members who still have responsibility for it, including the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), who last night was talking about the need for teachers. He was at that time Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was really the architect of the financial arrangement whereby the State paid little or nothing and got the benefit of the teachers' and the local authority contributions to reduce the war debt. He was then Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is on this basis that I want to conclude, because Lord Eustace Percy, in reply to one aspect of the debate, said something which is relevant. He said that if changes had to be made the Government of the day would have to come to the House and justify them:
  268
  "… the Government … would have to come to Parliament and say, 'Here is the account; here is the bond we made with the teacher some years ago; now we ask you to break that bond not only with the teachers but with the local authorities as well'."
  He went on:
  "A Government in that position will have to meet not only the opposition of the teachers—they had to meet that in 1920—but they will have to meet the opposition of all the local authorities in the country. Such a situation is conceivable. It is conceivable that there might be a Government in this country dishonest enough and strong enough to take the Parliamentary risks of a proposition of that kind."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 30th June, 1925; c. 1868.]
  In the light of Lord Eustace Percy's statement and of his reputation, we have a Government strong enough—and anyone who knows the Government know that they are dishonest enough.
  The Government only have the courage because, in the month of May, they had a mandate, not for this Bill, but for the place of power. That is the teachers' indictment of the Government. Nothing which has happened in the last few weeks or months can strengthen any faith they may have in this Government carrying out any pledge of any kind, be it to profession or to people. The Government are labelled by one of their own past leaders, speaking thirty years ago—that in doing this thing they are doing something that is dishonest.
  6.57 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas L. S. Nairn: I am very pleased to have the privilege of following the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). Ever since I have been here he has teased me, asking when the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire is going to speak. I was fascinated this afternoon to watch the hon. Member prowling up and down the benches, grumbling and growling about "tame rebels" and the "betrayal of teachers." I can assure him that we on this side are not tame rebels, nor shall we betray the teachers. When he looks at me he always does so as though I had just snatched away his bone—like an unfortunate dog which has just lost his bone. His expression is one of misery and despondency. I can assure him that today I shall not snatch any bones from him.
  If it is not impertinent for me to do so, I should like to congratulate the hon.

  269
  Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. J. Harvey) on his maiden speech—even though I have just made my own. It was a far better maiden speech than most of us have been able to make, even after much preparation, and in it he said more or less most of what a great many of us feel. I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Member for Burton (Mr. Jennings), though at times he seemed to mix up teachers' salaries with superannuation schemes. The scheme that is now before us is, on the whole, fair and just in view of the many difficulties besetting this problem. It is probably the best scheme that can be found for the moment. It will put teachers' superannuation not only on a sound footing but on a footing which everyone, teachers included, will at last be able to understand. That in itself is a move in the right direction.
  I hope, therefore, that the House will accept this Bill, although with only a limited measure of enthusiasm, because in it I believe there is one major failing. The failure is that the scheme does not include in its scope and structure proper provision for widows, orphans and dependants. If such provision had been included, in my opinion most teachers—in Scotland any way—would not only have accepted the scheme but would have welcomed it. It seems strange that widows, orphans and dependants, who in most, if not all, schemes evolved for civil servants are taken care of, should be omitted from this superannuation scheme for teachers. Teachers are of more vital importance to the future of this country, our people and our children than are most civil servants. Why, therefore, have they not had as good a deal as that given to most civil servants?
  Of course, we know the reason; the Minister mentioned it. Teachers are not in the true sense of the words civil servants. They are servants of the local authorities, and the local authorities, in their wisdom or otherwise, are not prepared to accept their share of the 2 per cent. which the Minister has told us is required for new entrants if widows, orphans and dependants are to be covered. I believe the local authorities ought to have accepted that. I further believe that the Government would have wished them to do so.
  270
  I am convinced that the teachers would have been quite ready to pay their half of the extra contribution. The county councils should have been equally ready to pay their share. After all, the burden which would be put on county councils is not very great. After they had received the Government grant towards their share, they would have to pay only something less than ½ per cent. I do not think that would be a very heavy burden for local authorities if it would produce a happy and contented teaching profession.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has the hon. Member made any calculation of what it would be likely to cost the local authority in Ayrshire?
  Mr. Nairn: I have not had the opportunity to do that but, whatever it is going to cost, I think it is something which is well worth while. I am therefore going to support the Bill today because I believe it is a stepping stone in the right direction—
  Mr. Rankin: A slippery one.
  Mr. Nairn: Not nearly so slippery as some of the stones laid by hon. Members opposite.
  I support the Bill, but I hope the Minister will immediately initiate most vigorous negotiations with local authorities. When I say "vigorous," I mean sufficiently vigorous to produce results, and when I say negotiations my right hon. Friend can interpret "negotiations" as he thinks fit. I want the results to mean that within twelve months the Minister will introduce a supplementary Bill which, in its scope, will cover the widows, orphans and dependants of our teachers. We want a fair proportion of the best men and women to come into the teaching profession. Let this House set about making sure that we get them, and, having got them, that we keep them so that in future Britain will still remain one of the leading countries in science, engineering, and other professions.
  7.5 p.m.
  Mr. Ede: We had two characteristic speeches to open this debate. From the Minister we had a suave, glib exposition of a Measure of which he ought to be thoroughly ashamed. It was devastatingly replied to by my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart). I have listened to a great many

  271
  education debates in this House in the past thirty years, but I have never heard the case of a Minister of Education more completely demolished than it was this afternoon by my hon. Friend. I should like to express my congratulations to my hon. Friend on his speech. I can assure him that he will receive the thanks of the teaching profession throughout the country.
  In the spring of last year I met the chief education officer of one of the English counties who told me, "I am the educational adviser of the group of Conservative members opposed to the Superannuation Bill." He said, "Of course I am not a Conservative." If they wanted anything constructive they would not go to a Conservative. "I am advising them. I do not like the Bill, but the other night I was speaking to one of them over the telephone and I said to him, 'Don't you realise that if you succeed in what you are trying to do you will unship the Ministers'." He said, "The reply I got was 'Don't you realise that that is the major part of the exercise?'."
  Where is the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. G. Longden) today? He was the hon. Member who wrecked the political career of the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh).
  Mr. Maude: My hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden) is not here this evening. I understand he has expressed his intention to abstain from voting on this Bill. May I ask if as a matter of courtesy the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) informed my hon. Friend that he was to make that observation?
  Mr. Ede: No, there was no need to inform the hon. Member of such a remark as that—[Interruption.] When I want criticism of my conduct it will not come from the hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, South (Squadron Leader Cooper) but from someone who is capable of expressing it. If the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West has gone so far as the hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude) said, I congratulate him. I only wish he had had as much courage in dealing with the present Minister as he had in dealing with the right hon. Lady, for there were no threats of abstention last year. Oh no, then we were told
  272
  that five and twenty hon. Members opposite were willing to go into the Lobby against the Government. It was because of that threat that the Bill never came up for Second Reading.
  With the exception of my right hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Key), I have been connected with the teaching profession longer than any other hon. Member in this House. My right hon. Friend is a few months younger than I am, but he started as a pupil teacher a couple of years earlier than I did. I have never found it possible in the course of my life to recommend any young man to become a teacher, because what we have been witnessing today has not been so much past history to me as a record of what I have seen during my life. Take the speech of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Nairn) to which we have just listened—this is the best for the moment, but they accept it with limited enthusiasm, they accept it nevertheless—teachers are more important than most civil servants. I do not know why the word "most" was inserted. I have heard it all for 50 years, and I have always seen the teaching profession betrayed when a Government was looking round for money. That is true this afternoon.
  The Minister, when I interrupted him about the police fund, said. "It is a quite different fund." Of course it is like this—there is no fund at all. He said that I ought to know something about the fund, as I was Home Secretary. Let me tell him that the difficulty in increasing police pay is the knowledge that the police authorities and the Government Departments concerned have that any increase in pay means an enormous increase in the demand on the police pension account, the payments of which, as in this case, go on the local rates. They know that on police pensions often a very high proportion indeed—far higher than the 20 per cent. mentioned by Lord Eustace Percy as likely to be charged on the Exchequer in 1970—has to be paid out of current rates with a 50 per cent. grant from the Exchequer.
  Listening to the right hon. Gentleman, one would think that this year the Chancellor of the Exchequer is somehow or other going to transfer £259 million raised from the taxpayers—
  Sir D. Eccles: I never said that.
  Mr. Ede: The right hon. Gentleman talked about this £259 million as if it were some hard cash that the Chancellor has to find. Even on Lord Eustace Percy's calculation, the trouble was not going to arise until 1970, and I understand that the recent actuarial return indicates that the money actually to be found will have to be found at a far later date than that. Of course, actuaries are only respectable bookmakers. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is all they are. They calculate the odds. They may be not so much bookmakers as the tipsters in the modern Press whose calculations are rarely profitable to anyone.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: Surely the right hon. Gentleman, who was a very responsible Minister for six years, knows that the late Sir Stafford Cripps, who was as honourable a man as anyone in this House, based his economic policy year after year on the Economic Survey produced by actuaries, in whose honesty and ability the right hon. Gentleman does not believe.
  Mr. Ede: In the first place, the Economic Survey is not produced by actuaries, and, in the second place, I am not accusing anyone of dishonesty. One cannot argue with prophets. One has only to wait until events contradict them, as they eventually do. An actuary always makes a calculation which will save himself, if he should still be alive and has to give an account of the way in which things have worked out, from having erred on the wrong side.
  In every local government officers' superannuation fund, which is reviewed quinquennially, there is always a deficit prophesied. But what happens there? When a deficit is prophesied for a local government officers' superannuation fund, a statement is also made as to the extra percentage contribution which ought to be paid in, and that falls entirely on the employer.
  The most devastating thing that has been said this afternoon has been the quotation made by my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham, reinforced by the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), about the statements made by Lord Eustace Percy in 1925. Let us be quite certain of this. Lord Eustace Percy was never a popular figure with the teachers. I know the time
  274
  when he was called the "Minister for Thought," and, of course, that did not make him popular with hon. Members opposite. In fact, he found that there was so little use for thought in the Conservative party that he resigned from office and never took office afterwards.
  Lord Eustace Percy made it quite clear that the Act of 1925 was a settlement which left the teachers' superannuation fund in a similar position to the local government officers' fund. That is to say that when the calculation was faulty and the 5 per cent. on each side would not provide the necessary sum, any accrued deficit had to be met by the Treasury. We have had no mention of that in the speech of the Minister of Education. Not a word did he say about Lord Eustace Percy's position. He put all the blame apparently on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) for having returned to the gold standard in 1924.
  That was already a fact at the time when the 1925 Act was passed. Only those who were in the teaching profession at the time, like my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove), can realise tonight the indignation felt in 1922 and 1925 when the 5 per cent. contribution was introduced. It was only made in the smallest degree palatable to the teachers by the assurances given by Lord Eustace Percy that this was a final arrangement, and any deficit that arose would always be borne by the Treasury. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman talking about having made a payment. This is what he actually said in the course of his speech—"A payment without precedent in size"—when he was talking of the £259 million.
  Sir D. Eccles: A precedent, not payment.
  Mr. Ede: A payment without precedent in size.
  Sir D. Eccles: I said that the wiping off of the £259 million constituted a precedent without any parallel in size. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny the fact that there never has been a deficit of this size on an account which has been taken entirely by the Exchequer?
  Mr. Ede: The right hon. Gentleman knows, as well as I do, that the actuarial deficiency revealed from time to time by

  275
  the local government officers' superannuation fund is immediately met by an increase in the employers' contribution.
  Mr. Maude: Surely that is due to the fact that the system was changed in 1937. It was funded then, and the local government officers were then asked to pay a 6 per cent. contribution. The burden of the case is that since 1937 the teachers have been that much better off.
  Mr. Ede: I was concerned with local government officers' superannuation funds Tong before 1937, immediately after the passing of the Act of 1922. The quinquennial valuations took place before 1937 and the revealed deficit fell upon the employing authority only. It was not shared with the employees and the 1937 Act merely continued that process. I am coming to deal with the point made by the hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude) in a moment.
  It was found in 1937 that, generally speaking, 5 per cent. on both sides was insufficient and the sum was increased to 6 per cent., but the people who had come into the scheme under the 5 per cent. arrangement were not compelled to go over and pay 6 per cent. That is another way in which this scheme differs from what then happened. Should there be a deficit on the quinquennial valuations that has to be met by the employers, as it was before. There is no provision in the local government officers' scheme for putting anything extra on the employees.
  Owing to interruptions I have spoken for rather longer than I intended, but I should like to join in the congratulations offered to the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. J. Harvey). I am sorry that he is not now in the Chamber, because it was a remarkable piece of prescience on his part, speaking only on the spur of the moment, that he happened to have the relevant copy of the Economist in his possession to make the quotations on which he based his speech. I hope that he will not bring the whole of the Library into the House on future occasions when he wishes to speak.
  Jeremiah was a very dismal sort of person. [An HON. MEMBER: "He was right."] He was certainly right in what I am going to quote. He asked:
  "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?"
  He was making quite plain from what follows in the verse that he was not so
  276
  much a prophet as an historian. The Tories in their approach to education are like the Ethiopian and the leopard. They may put on masks, they may try to whitewash themselves, but in the end, if there is any trouble, one of the first services to be attacked is education, and the certain thing is that an attack will be made on the payments made to teachers.
  Hon. and right hon. Members opposite should read the rest of the text. Jeremiah said that if Ethiopians could change their skins or leopards their spots,
  "then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."
  But Ethiopians do not change their skins and leopards, so far, have been unable to get rid of their spots.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. Angus Maude: I wish that I could feel that the speech of the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), any more than the speeches of some of the teachers' representatives here, was really calculated to increase sympathy for the teachers' cause among members of the public. Unfortunately, it is true that education is not very popular among the great mass of the people, and that is one of the things with which Governments, as well as teachers, have to contend.
  It would be a very good thing if the public could be persuaded to believe that the needs of teachers were great, and that they deserved both higher salaries and a better pensions scheme. But one way not to succeed in persuading the public is to overstate and distort the case in the way in which we have heard it distorted today, so that one would think that the Bill existed for no other purpose than to make a so-called salary cut and impose it upon the teachers.
  We have heard that several times. Even the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short), who made a much more moderate speech than other teachers' representatives here, said it. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) made quite extravagant claims in that respect.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member is referring to "teachers' representatives" as if all those who have spoken, at least from this side of the House, were here as teachers' representatives I assure him that that is not true.
  Mr. Maude: I well know what the hon. Member represents.
  Mr. Rankin: I represent Govan.
  Mr. Maude: I am speaking about hon. Members on the other side of the House who make no secret of the fact that they speak as special representatives of teachers, with their interests very much at heart. There is no reason why they should not do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Jennings) said exactly the same thing, and nobody is criticising him on that score. The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Rankin) must be very suspicious.
  Mr. Rankin: Not at all; it is the hon. Member's suspicious way of talking.
  Mr. Maude: The hon. Member for Cardiff. West went to quite extravagant lengths. He said, in effect, that all the things that the teachers wanted had been left out of the Bill.
  Mr. G. Thomas Mr. G. Thomas indicated dissent.
  Mr. Maude: Yes, the hon. Member will see in the OFFICIAL REPORT the exact words. He said that the things which the teachers resent bitterly are in the Bill but things which they want most are not.
  Mr. Thomas Mr. Thomas indicated assent.
  Mr. Maude: That is not true. It is a distortion of the facts to say it.
  The executive of the National Union of Teachers, so far as I know, has never attempted to deny that there are substantial benefits in the Bill, and it is most unfair to try to cover them up now. There is, for example, the recalculation of the lump sum, and there is Clause 12, which seems to me to confer very substantial benefit on teachers, and there are a number of other minor benefits. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West went on to deal with one or two points which, as the Minister said, are to some extent Committee points, small details which are not in the Bill but which can be dealt with by Amendments in Committee. I would agree that some of them are reasonable requests.
  The question of the widows' and orphans' pensions provision was the most substantial problem that the hon. Member for Cardiff, West mentioned. It struck me as a bit thick that he should say that
  278
  the teachers asked for "the right to contribute to their own scheme for widows' and orphans' pensions." He did not go on to say that they were also asking someone else to contribute to them, which makes a difference to the argument.
  If all that is being asked for is that teachers should have a right to bear the full actuarial cost of extra benefit for widows and orphans, they could have gone to my right hon. Friend and said, "We are prepared to pay for the lot if you run it for us." I do not mind betting that my right hon. Friend would probably have answered, "Yes." The hon. Member omitted to say that. He said that the teachers asked for the right to contribute to their own pensions scheme.
  Mr. Thomas: If he took down my words, the hon. Member will be aware that we were asking for what is already given to the Civil Service—that the teachers should make their contribution and that the Government should do likewise.
  Mr. Maude: It is true that the hon. Member said that in a different part of his speech, but he cannot deny that what I have repeated was also what he said.
  Mr. Thomas: Specious.
  Mr. Maude: Local authorities do not want to concede that they should pay any proportion of the contributions in respect of widows and orphans because in some of the other schemes dealing with local government employees there are provisions for widows and orphans in respect of which the beneficiaries pay the whole of the contributory cost. That would be to put the teachers in a different position from other local government employees in that respect.
  There has been a great deal of talk, not only about local government schemes, but about other schemes. When the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) said that when dealing with this matter we have to take each scheme as a whole and not single out one part of it, he could not have said anything more profoundly relevant to the argument. If he had thought of it a little more, he would have seen that that is precisely as good an argument in favour of raising the contributions of teachers from 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. as against it, because it is not an argument for saying that teachers are being "singled out" to pay 6 per

  279
  cent. If we look at these schemes—and the Working Group Report has an appendix which contains all these schemes and a number outside the local government employment sphere—we see that every one of the schemes is different.
  It cannot be said, "Here is a scheme which exactly represents the situation of the teachers, and if we put an extra 1 per cent. on the teachers they will be that much worse off in relation to other schemes"; because where we find a benefit in one of the other schemes as compared with the teachers' scheme, there is always a disadvantage. I have looked at them carefully. Some hon. Members mentioned the case of firemen and policemen. Those are totally different schemes. For one thing there are no lump sum benefits, which is a substantial disadvantage. It is true that there are widows' benefits, but the lump sum in the teachers' scheme can be commuted to provide widows' and orphans' benefits, which puts them much more nearly on a level footing. In addition, it would be unnatural if there were no special provision for widows and orphans in the case of police and firemen, who run a real risk to their lives which may leave their families widowed and orphaned in a way which, so far, at any rate, teachers have not been exposed to.
  Now I want to deal briefly with one or two points made by the hon. Member for Fulham and by the right hon. Member for South Shields. They were intent on purporting to prove that this Bill represents a breach of faith with the teachers. The hon. Member for Fulham said there was a breach of faith in 1922, when the scheme was made contributory. He added that in 1925, Lord Eustace Percy said—but I did not propose to go deeply into what is rapidly becoming a kind of mystique surrounding the question of what Lord Eustace Percy said or did not say or mean, because we have had plenty of views on that, and we heard the same argument from the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) and the right hon. Member for South Shields.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has given the complete answer, and anybody who did not hear his speech should read it in HANSARD tomorrow. It is not
  280
  only the answer of my hon. Friend. What hon. Gentlemen opposite might realise is that it is also the answer of Lord Eustace Percy himself. In a letter to The Times about eighteen months ago, he said in terms what he said at the time and what he meant.
  The right hon. Member for South Shields was at pains to say what an honest person Lord Eustace Percy was, compared with the dishonest lot of us now on this side of the House. He might have given Lord Eustace Percy credit for knowing what he meant when he said it, and for making an honest and responsible statement now. Lord Eustace Percy cannot be prayed in aid by hon. Gentlemen opposite because he did not say what they allege he said.
  We had an allegation, repeated by another hon. Gentleman, that the reason why the Bill of my right hon. Friend the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh) was withdrawn, and this Bill is being proceeded with, was because there was a General Election impending at the time of the previous Bill. I should have thought that was a peculiar and somewhat dangerous argument to come from the other side of the House and, in particular, from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields. I had not intended to raise this point, but in view of that, there are one or two questions I want to put to hon. Gentlemen opposite and to which we might be given an answer in the winding-up speech from the Opposition.
  The Report of the Government Actuary on the position of the scheme in 1948, showing a deficiency of £102 million, which was still rising, was signed in December, 1950; that is to say, it was presumably placed in the hands of the Government then. It was laid as a White Paper in March, 1951, by the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) who, I notice, pat upon his cue, has just come into the Chamber and sat down. Assuming that the Government did not see the Report until the White Paper was laid, which is improbable, they still had it from March, 1951, but we can assume that they knew the contents of the Report in December, 1950. It would be valuable to us to know, because we could then judge the validity of the claim of hon. Gentlemen

  281
  opposite to be the only true supporters and protectors of the interests of the teachers, exactly what happened between December, 1950, and October, 1951.
  Mr. Peart Mr. Peart rose—
  Mr. Maude: I am sorry but I must finish this argument because it is an important point which I want to get across.
  When the Treasury was presented with the Report of the Government Actuary showing a deficiency of £102 million—two years before that time, remember, and still rising, so that it was presumably larger in December, 1950—did it take no action about it, make no inquiries or suggestions as to what should be done, for nearly a year?
  Mr. G. Thomas: They did not do what this Government have done.
  Mr. Maude: Did not the Chancellor at that time inquire of the Ministry of Education what was to be done about it? Did the Cabinet never discuss it? Did they never come to any conclusion about it?
  Mr. Cove Mr. Cove rose—
  Mr. Maude: Just a moment, and then I will give way.
  What I think must have happened was that they did take a decision. They must have had a Bill in draft during 1951, and what I think we should be told is this: if there was a Bill in draft at that time, did it contain a proposal to raise the contributions of teachers from 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. or did it not? Had the Government taken any decision? If they had not taken any decision then from December, 1950, until October, 1951, they decided to let matters drift because there was a General Election coming along.
  Mr. Cove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. I do not know whether there was a Bill or not, but I know that the late George Tomlinson told me definitely that he would not introduce a Bill to raise the contribution of teachers for pension purposes, if only because of the reason that there was a surplus coming in every year and there was no immediate necessity to do it.
  Mr. Maude: That is absolutely fascinating. That that was the view taken
  282
  by the Treasury at the time is inconceivable. It is the veriest nonsense to suggest that. I had as great respect and affection for the late George Tomlinson as anybody in this House; but whether or not he said that, it is inconceivable that the Treasury made no attempt to get this rapidly rising and vast deficiency dealt with.
  The Labour Government must have been proposing to do something about it. If we obtain an assurance from the Opposition that it was not proposed to raise contributions from 5 to 6 per cent., well and good, but we ought also to be told why there was a delay from December, 1950, until October, 1951, in announcing this—if it was not because a General Election was coming. In other words, were the Labour Government proposing to let things slide indefinitely?
  When we come to look at the matter, that is precisely what the Opposition has recommended today. I listened very carefully to the speech of the hon. Member for Fulham to discover what the Labour Party's policy was about teachers' superannuation. It amounted to this, "Because this will not happen for thirty, forty or fifty years, we will not do anything about it at the moment, and probably not for thirty, forty or fifty years." No responsible Government could possibly saddle posterity with a debt of that sort.
  The hon. Member said, and the right hon. Member for South Shields repeated it, that actuarial prophecies do not always come true. The effect of what he said was, "Why should we act on them now when it may all be all right in thirty or forty years' time?" Neither of them—the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman—nor anybody else has ever suggested that a single factor in the calculation can move in favour of the scheme.
  Unless it can be shown that teachers' are going to die five years earlier, or retire considerably later, or that their salaries will decline, none of which is probable, many of the factors must move against the scheme. Therefore, there is no chance of the actuarial forecasts proving to be unduly favourable to the scheme. No responsible Government could conceivably let the matter slide indefinitely, because sooner or later something—it might well range up to about £500 million—would have to be clawed back gradually from the Exchequer and

  283
  poured out to meet liabilities in respect of teachers' pensions.
  This proposition is being made at a time when the teachers can go to the Burnham Committee with every hope of getting some recompense. This is not unreasonable, as was suggested by an hon. Member opposite. Listening to the hon. Member for Fulham, one would think that the one thing the teachers must do is to go to the Burnham Committee before they have been asked to pay the addition. What grounds would they then have for asking for compensation? It must be obvious that, until a liability is imposed, they have no case to take to the Burnham Committee.
  Mr. G. Thomas: Oh.
  Mr. Maude: In respect of pensions, I mean.
  The teachers know that perfectly well. They know it is really fantastic to make a fuss about 1 per cent.—not even 4s. or 5s. a week; it is 2s. 9d. gross weekly in the case of the average male teacher—when they will be going to the Burnham Committee and arguing in terms of perhaps a 25 per cent. increase in salary. They must know it, and I am sure they do know it. They are perfectly entitled to make this row in order to improve their case before the Burnham Committee; but if the House allows itself to be stampeded into rejecting this extremely courageous and obviously sound Bill it will bitterly regret it later.
  7.44 p.m.
  Mr. F. Blackburn: It has been said that if one keeps something long enough one eventually finds a use for it. I think that has happened in the case of the speech which the hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude) has made. I want to bring the House back to the Bill that we are discussing The hon. Gentleman's speech could just as well have been made on the previous Measure or any previous suggestions I heard nothing in it which had any particular reference to the Bill. It is obvious from his speech what his views would have been on the last occasion.
  I am told that the rebellion on the Government back benches has been brought to an end. It could not have been a very serious one. I am wondering whether the fact that there is a rumour of a Minis-
  284
  terial shuffle has anything to do with its ending. Presumably this is a rather bad time at which to rebel.
  I cannot understand why anyone who was against the 1954 Measure could possibly support this Bill. In fact, if anything, the reason for supporting the previous Measure was slightly better than the reasons which are held for supporting the Bill. The right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh) brought forward a Measure under which the 1 per cent. increase to be met by the teachers was intended to meet part of the actuarial deficiency. On this occasion, the actuarial deficiency is supposed to have been wiped out, but the additional 1 per cent. is still required. All the difference I can see between the 1954 Measure and the Bill is that this time we have a different salesman. A bad article cannot be made a good article merely by changing the salesman. To be honest, I do not think the salesman was at his best today.
  We have had some curious arguments from the Government benches. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) seemed to say, "Let us have an increase of 1 per cent. in the contribution which the teachers make, and that will be a sort of preliminary canter to a non-contributory scheme." On the other hand, the Minister said. "We want to raise the prestige of the teaching profession. Let us make the teachers pay another 1 per cent. and see how their prestige goes up." If the prestige of the teachers is improved by the additional 1 per cent., I wonder how good it would be if they had to pay an additional 2 per cent.
  Dr. Horace King: Do not put ideas into the heads of the Government.
  Mr. Blackburn: The Conservative Party owes an apology to the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side, because she stood the brunt of all the attacks that were made at the time she inroduced her Measure, not only from teachers and hon. Members on this side of the House, but also from hon. Members opposite. During the years when she was Minister of Education she valiantly defended the Conservative Party. Indeed, so valiantly did she defend it that it always seemed to me when she spoke in the House that her brief was from the Conservative Central Office and not from her Depart-

  285
  ment. However, there was a rebellion among the Conservative Party, and it was thought better to throw out the scheme, and out with it went the right hon. Lady. To suggest that the differences between her Measure and the Bill are sufficient to make hon. Members opposite change their minds does not make sense.
  I do not quarrel with the Government Actuary's Report—I accept it in toto—but it is important to make it clear to the country that at the moment, instead of there being a deficit, there is a credit balance in actual payment. I believe the people of the country are of the opinion that the Government are going to make a payment to make up teachers' pensions at the present time. Actually, there is a credit balance of £232 million. In about 14 years' time, the contributions and the cost of the pensions will just about equate, and possibly in about another forty years all the present balances will have been exhausted and the contributions will prove insufficient.
  What are the differences between this and the 1954 Bill? This is an attempt to sell the Bill not to the country, not to the teachers, but to Conservative back benchers. What has happened to sell it to them? Let us first take the present actuarial deficiency. In the 1954 Bill the Government was to make up two-thirds of it and in the present Bill it is to make up all of it, but yet the contribution from the teachers and the local authorities will be exactly the same, 6 per cent. What about future actuarial deficiencies? The 1954 Bill made no provision, but the 1955 Bill says that it will be met by the local education authorities, subject to the Government grant.
  What will these things cost the present Government? Actually nothing. As a matter of fact, they will be slightly the gainers. They will have a notional additional 3½ per cent. on the additional notional figure to put in next year, but in actual cash what they will get will be increased contributions from the teachers and increased contributions from the local authorities, less the 60 per cent, grant. Whatever they will have to pay—it is suggested that it will be an extra £1 million—will be more than covered by the increased 1 per cent. from the teachers. There is no fund, and therefore any credit which is made to the fund can be only a
  286
  notional credit, plus next year the notional increase of 3½ per cent.
  Future actuarial deficiencies will be met by future Governments, and not by this Government. Can we legislate for future Governments? It is not surprising that the teachers are rather chary about this, knowing the history of superannuation schemes, a history which certainly does not inspire confidence in such schemes. Since the history has been given, I will not delay the House with it for more than a minute, but it is as well briefly to recall what happened. In 1918 it was noncontributory; then in 1922 came the Geddes Axe and the levy of 5 per cent. It is amazing how history more or less repeats itself.
  When in April, 1922, the Government came to the House with a Bill to enforce the 5 per cent., it was defeated. In 1954 the Government did not actually bring the Bill to the House for the Second reading, because they knew beforehand that it would be defeated, because of the rebellion on the other side. In 1922 the Government set up a Select Committee which by a small majority decided that the Government had not broken faith. Fortified in that way the Government again brought in a Bill in August of that year, and the Bill was passed. In 1925 we had the Teachers (Superannuation) Act with contributions for teachers and local authorities fixed at 5 per cent. I say fixed at that because, whatever is said on the other side, I am quite certain that the teachers themselves thought they were definitely fixed for all future time. I happened to be one myself at that time, and that was my idea.
  There was no provision in that Act for future possible actuarial deficiencies. Lord Eustace Percy, to whom so much reference has been made tonight, spoke at that time only of guaranteeing the fund against capital depreciation. Since then there have been two previous attempts to increase the cuts to 6 per cent. Both have been dropped because of opposition, and I suggest to the Minister that the best thing he can do is to follow suit with this particular Bill, although it does contain certain minor improvements which are welcome to the teaching profession, but, as has been pointed out, the total additional cost of all these benefits is not very great. It does not provide a pension

  287
  scheme for widows, orphans and dependants. The Financial and Explanatory Memorandum says:
  "Clause 8 empowers the Minister by rules (to be laid before Parliament and subject to annulment) to make provision for pensions for widows and orphans and dependants. The cost of benefits would involve no additional net charge on public funds, being met by a reduction of the amount of the additional (lump sum) allowances or death gratuities payable to, or in respect of, teachers under the existing superannuation system."
  The teaching profession is very interested in a scheme for widows, orphans and dependants, and for that teachers would be willing to pay.
  Mr. Powell: Would they? Would the hon. Member clarify that? He said the teachers would willingly pay the cost of a scheme for widows, orphans and dependants. Does he mean that or not?
  Mr. Blackburn: The teachers would certainly make their contribution. I did not mean pay the entire cost, any more than in any other superannuation scheme the total cost is paid by the people who receive benefit, and I think that the hon. Member understood that.
  Mr. I. J. Pitman: Is it not a fact that the teachers themselves run their own benevolent fund? Do they not pay the whole lot?
  Mr. Blackburn: I am sure that the hon. Member does not mean that interruption seriously.
  The teachers are interested in this, and I do not think that what the Minister has said meets their case. They want something more than that. According to this scheme, the only people who would be paying would be those teachers with dependants. 1 am certain that the teaching profession as a whole would be prepared to make its contribution towards a scheme for widows, orphans and dependants.
  There is another small matter to which my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) referred—that of providing for monthly, instead of quarterly payments for pensioners. Of course, hon. Members who have never had the experience of living on small amounts will not realise the importance of payments being made at shorter intervals. The third point I want to mention
  288
  is in connection with National Service. The Bill should provide that the man who does two years' National Service, first, does not lose on salary grounds and, secondly, does not lose on pension grounds.
  I am certain that I am speaking for the women members of the teaching profession when I say that although they were anxious about having equal pay they did not want special privileges. At present a National Service man starting his teaching career two years later is at a disadvantage and that situation should be righted, and it is obviously something which could have been put right in a Bill of this kind. I hope that at the Committee stage the Minister will be prepared to do that.
  In conclusion, I ask the Minister: is it really worth it? Is it really worth going ahead with this Clause of the Bill and upsetting the whole of the teaching profession? Do we or do we not want to attract people to the profession?
  I do not think that a reduction in salary—or perhaps I had better not put it that way because an hon. Member opposite objected to saying that it was a reduction in salary—an increased superannuation contribution is the way to attract more people? Do we want a contented profession? The Bill is not the way in which to get one. I assure the Minister that there is no body of workers anywhere in the country that gives more time voluntarily and unpaid to its job than this profession. Probably more overtime is being done by teachers than by any other body of people.
  Mr. W. R. Williams: Unpaid.
  Mr. Blackburn: Without pay, yes. It is important that we should have teachers who feel that they are appreciated. We know the sacrifices which they are making. What they are doing ought to be appreciated. The suggestion made by the Minister that a new salary agreement could take into account the increased contributions really is just nonsense. If that is in mind, why go to all the trouble of causing this discontent? I say to the Minister that the Government will be well advised to let the Bill go the way of the two previous attempts to make the increase of 1 per cent.
  8.2 p.m.
  Mr. I. J. Pitman: I should like to follow the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) on two of his points. In the first he sought to belittle the £300 million liability which the Government are taking on and to say that no money is yet payable and that that is in effect not a good consideration for the other side of the picture.
  Mr. Blackburn: I did not belittle the liability. I belittled the contribution which the present Government would have to make.
  Mr. Pitman: That is precisely what I was trying to say. If the hon. Member will guarantee an overdraft for me he will have nothing to contribute immediately, but I will open such an account which he then guarantees and he will see that there will in the future be contributions which he will have to pay. He must not belittle this in any way. He is running quite contrary to the policy of the National Union of Teachers which, in the communication it has sent to every Member of Parliament, has asked anybody who is a friend of a teacher not to make that ridiculous statement, because it just gets one into trouble.
  Mr. Blackburn: I said that I wanted to refer to the actuarial position. Then I said that I accepted in full and absolutely the actuarial position which had been disclosed. I accepted that. I think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to mislead the House, trying to twist my words. I have accepted the position that there is an actuarial deficiency, but that does not mean that the present Government will have to pay anything to make good that deficiency.
  Mr. Pitman: That is just quibbling over words. The hon. Gentleman is saying exactly what I said he had said. In accepting a liability, as in guaranteeing an overdraft, the Government are making a considerable "consideration" in terms of contract.
  The other point which I should like to take up with the hon. Gentleman is that he asked in what respect the Bill differs from the earlier one. To begin with, there is the immensely important factor that the other Bill left the whole thing up in the air. The treatment of future deficiencies was not provided for. The teachers had to go, septennial after septennial, to fight out in the country, and
  290
  in the House, something which ought to have been settled and which will now be settled by the Bill. It is in that respect that there is the biggest improvement.
  The next improvement to which I attach importance is the acceptance of the whole of the liability for £300 million. Whatever anybody may say, I am absolutely certain that the teachers, in their sober moments, will say that that is a fine piece of acceptance of liability by the Government and that they are grateful. Thirdly, there has been a really substantial point in not penalising the young incoming teacher and making him pay part of the pensions of existing teachers by an overpayment of his rate of contribution. I remember very clearly the strong point made by the N.U.T. in their objection to that.
  Then, finally, there is a real benefit in having got quite clear who is the employer and who is responsible for the payment of salaries and for the payment of pensions. It seems to me that of all things likely to bedevil relations between a man and his employer is to have his salary coming from one source and his pension coming from another and dubious source, so that he really does not know where he stands in relation one to the other. From now on it will be perfectly clear that the slate is wiped clean—that is an expression used of the £300 million, which is a nice and generous wiping—and that from now on it is an issue of salary and of pension coming from only one source with only one person responsible, and a clear matching of duty and responsibility with power in that one person.
  A very wise man once told me that the greatest friction always arose in choosing which was the least bad of two thoroughly bad alternatives. He said: "It is very easy to make the choice between a good and bad alternative. It is a bit more difficult to choose which is the better of two good ones, but the fur really begins to fly when whichever one of the two one chooses one is in a real mess." And this has been a real mess. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude) pointed out, successive Governments have run away from this, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), a former Financial Secretary, smiled blandly when that point was made. I

  291
  think that we are like the bull angry with both alternatives that is charging at the red cloak, not realising that in point of fact the red cloak conceals the sight of what are the two real villains of the piece. The two villains of the piece are, firstly, inflation and, secondly, the poverty of local government finance.
  I have been a keen member of the N.U.T. for a number of years. I am not a representative, in the sense that everything I say is what I think and I do not purport to represent that union in any way whatever, but I protest—and I think the whole House will protest—against the I per cent. cut in salaries. It will be a good thing for it to be clearly on record that the teachers have suffered such a diminution. If we take salary and pension together as a global whole the teacher is definitely 1 per cent. down in salary, and he will not get any more bread and butter when he retires. We must avoid pounds, shillings and pence, because we do not know what will happen to the pound, but in terms of bread and butter the teacher will be getting as pension no more than was the understanding under the Act, but he will be paying more out of salary. It is good that the House should recognise that there has in fact been that cut.
  The teacher and we in this House have a right to protest about this, but the issue is, to whom are we to protest? Should it be to this House and the Government, who are not the employers of the teachers, or should it be to the local education authorities who are the employers? I was interested to hear the Minister say that it is local authorities generally, including Socialist controlled local authorities, who have refused to pay 7 per cent. so that the teachers may continue paying 5 per cent., and who have refused to put into operation the widows and dependants scheme straight away. If during the Committee discussions we have an Amendment to allow any local authority to put the widows and dependants scheme into force, it will be interesting to see whether the Socialist controlled authorities will fall over one another to do so, as might be implied from what we have heard during this debate.
  Dr. King: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that local authorities would
  292
  have no objection to the proposals about widows and orphans pensions on a contributory basis, if the contributors were the teachers on the one hand and the Government on the other; if the teachers made a 50 per cent. contribution and the Government the rest? Is not the real way to solve the hardships of local authorities for the Government themselves to accept some of the responsibility which they are trying to put on to the local authorities?
  Mr. Pitman: I am coming to that point, but it turns on the issue of who is the employer. I say that the House and the nation clearly want local government to be responsible and to be the employer. If it is an issue of getting some funds out of the State for local education, I think it wrong for that injection of money to come in a form which vitiates the relations between employer and employee. It should come in a bigger block grant and leave the employee looking single-mindedly to only one employer.
  Hon. Members are very apt to confuse the Secretary of State for War with the Minister of Education. The Secretary of State for War employs and pays his soldiers, but the Minister of Education does not employ and pay his teachers. The Secretary of State for War has the Royal Army Pay Corps to whom he can order what they shall pay. The Minister of Education is dealing with free agents in the local education authorities. It would be wholly out of keeping with the attitude of this House were the Minister to have done what this House could have done for him and forced the local education authorities to pay 7 per cent. and forced them to take on the widows and dependants scheme, after they had apparently, unanimously decided that was something which they would not do.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: The teachers feel that they ought not to be the persons who are forced any more than the local authorities. If this House considers the other arrangement is right, why not have a Bill to implement that arrangement and not the wrong one, merely because the local authorities do not want it done that way?
  Mr. Pitman: We have been told by the Minister that the attitude of the local authorities to the whole of this Bill was that the only condition under which they

  293
  would agree to its terms was if the Government contributed this guarantee of £300 million, and if the teachers took the 6 per cent. and not the 5 per cent. It is not this House which is making that decision, it is the employers.
  I know enough about employing people and about wage negotiations to realise that the total of all remunerations is taken globally as between employer and employee and that pensions and salaries are regarded as only parts of one complete whole of remuneration. It is far from idiotic to suggest the first thing unions would do is to go to Burnham and demand immediately this extra 1 per cent. and, in so doing, the employer will get 60 per cent. of it back from the Exchequer. Hon. Gentlemen opposite ask, why do it that way? The answer is clear. It is because it leaves the relationship of employer and employee in the ideal position in which it should be.
  Mr. M. Stewart: If the hon. Gentleman follows that line of argument, will he ask his right hon. Friend to urge upon local authorities that they should specifically take this question of the increased contribution into account the next time that teachers' salaries are negotiated? Can it be made definite? The hon. Gentleman seems to suggest that it is an admirable arrangement, but the trouble from the teachers' point of view is that their loss is certain and their potential gain is still uncertain in the future. Would it not be a good idea if it could be made certain that they would get it back?
  Mr. Pitman: I should certainly join the hon. Member in urging the Minister to do that, but the real difficulty is surely the poverty of local government finance, as I mentioned earlier.
  The danger which we and the teachers must face is that we shall tilt at the red cloak instead of tilting at the two major evils in the light of which the teachers are now suffering and will I fear continue to suffer. They will still suffer from inflation because every time the Burnham Committee sits, the local education authorities are bound to take into account the fact that any increase in salaries will considerably increase the deficiency in the inscribed fund.
  I do not here join with my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), because I think that in some ways it is a good thing that there
  294
  should be some force working to stop inflation. If every time there is any repercussion from inflation, it were to lead to the Government shouldering the whole burden, we should have forces working only in the direction of producing more and more inflation. I think that in some ways it is a good thing that local education authorities and the teachers and the nation should have periodically to face the fact that inflation with Burnham awards of increased salaries are expensive in themselves but are only part of the total expense which long-term inflation exerts on salaries and on pensions and on the well-being of the country.
  The other enemy behind the red cloak which we should be charging against is the poverty of local finance which is based on rents of housing and office accommodation. Both in the 1918 war and the 1945 war rents were kept down artificially by rent restrictions Acts so that rates came to be looked on as out of all proportion to what they ought to be, although they have not gone up as much as they ought and as other expenses have. If teachers had been paid on "whisky money," as some of them used to be, with the increase in the price of whisky the financing of payments for salaries and pensions would not have been as difficult as it has been because the employer would have been better able to pay. I consider that there is real substance in that point, and that the teachers ought to join with those of us who think that local government finance ought to be improved so that, for not only teachers, but the police and every one else, there might not be this particular red rag making us charge angrily against the wrong enemy.
  There is a muddle and it will be unpopular to get out of; it always is. But, for the four reasons which I have given, this Bill is much better than the last Measure and because, too, there is so much good in the Bill I propose to support it.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. J. Idwal Jones: I do not propose to speak for long, and my observations will be brief. I do not know whether I should declare an interest, but I might mention that I was a secondary school headmaster until my election to this House last March. This Bill will help me personally with regard to my

  295
  pension. Consequently, strange as it may seem, I shall be speaking contrary to my own interests. I shall be standing in the light of my personal advantage. Thus for my declared interest in the Bill.
  I shall attempt to ride across the quibbling technicalities and labyrinthine figures of the actuarial reports which we have had. I am not immediately concerned with them tonight. The first principle of government and of administration is recognition of the inviolability of contract. That is the basis of my argument. Agreements should not be unilaterally broken by teachers, local authorities or—above all—by the State. Unless the solemnity of contract is admitted and acted upon there can be no moral basis to the administration of law.
  I can well recall the coming into operation of the first superannuation Act. It was introduced to make the teaching profession attractive, and I was one of those who were attracted by it. It was then on a non-contributory basis. In 1922, however, as a result of the Geddes Report, a levy of 5 per cent. was imposed upon teachers, and the contract enshrined in the 1918 Act was torn up as though it were a scrap of paper. That was the first act of unilateral violation of a solemn contract, and from that day onwards a repetition of the same thing has been threatened continuously.
  The levy was first paid in 1922 and, although we had the idea that when conditions improved the scheme would return to a non-contributory basis, three years later, in 1925, the levy was riveted securely by the Act of that year. The 5 per cent. contribution then became fixed by law, and it has remained so until now. During the thirty years which have since elapsed there has been a constant feeling of uneasiness and uncertainty that there was a danger of the agreement being further broken—not by the teachers or by local authorities, but by the State.
  In March, 1933, less than eight years after the 1925 Act, the Government Actuary reported a deficiency and recommended that teachers should pay 6 per cent. In 1951, the Actuary reported again, but we had to wait until 1954, when a Conservative Government were in power, before a Bill was introduced to increase the rate of contribution to 6 per cent.
  296
  That Bill was withdrawn. Now we have this Bill, which includes the same proposal.
  And so, whilst the 5 per cent. contribution by teachers and local authorities has held the field for thirty years, the surface of that field has been very rough. It has been more in the nature of a ploughed field than a good-surfaced playing field, and Governments have been more concerned with ploughing than with playing ball with the teaching profession.
  All this breaking of contracts and threats of doing so have taken place in periods of so-called crisis. This is a very strange thing. In 1922 we had the Geddes Report; in 1925 the action which was taken was said to be part of an attempt to save the dignity of the by returning to the gold standard. It was a deflationary period. In 1936 there was a depression. In 1954, and now, in 1955, we have a period of prosperity—which is too dangerous to enjoy. It is a very strange world. Whether there is deflation or inflation, whether there is a depression or prosperity, the contract between the State and the teachers has had to be called into question.
  Hon. Members opposite now tell us that teachers live longer than they used to. I hope they do. I hope that we shall all live longer than our fathers did. As the old Book says,
  "the child shall die an hundred years old."
  What is wrong with that? Should not this desirable phenomenon have been clearly seen by the statesmen of 1918, 1922 and 1925? It is a fundamental law of human nature that we should all desire to live as long as we can, and that we should do all we can to achieve that commendable desire. Are teachers to be penalised because they live successfully? Do not other classes live longer? Why should there be this discrimination?
  One of the accepted principles of administration is that an action should not only be right but should appear to be right. A piece of legislation should not only be equitable but should appear to be equitable. That is where this Bill falls short. This is a cut in the salary of teachers at a time when the cost of living is rising, and so it is, and appears to be, unfair and discriminatory. I should have thought that for the sake of 1 per cent. the Government would have hesitated before imposing this extra burden

  297
  upon a section of the community to which every Member in the House owes a personal debt, whether he went to a public school or an ordinary council school.
  The Government should have hesitated before imposing this burden which, however light it may appear, engenders a sense of grievance among the members of this grand profession. I appeal to the Minister not to tarnish the lustre of equitable government, but to withdraw the Bill and try to devise another. If he does not succeed the first time, let him try again.
  Mr. G. Thomas: This is the second one.
  Mr. Jones: If he does succeed he may gain for himself a niche in the annals of educational history.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: I welcome the statement made by the Minister of his intention to reconsider the question of widows', orphans' and dependants' benefits in the not-too-distant future. He said that a more generous scheme will have to come. Many of us feel very strongly indeed on that point.
  My views have been clearly stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Nairn), but I would put them before the House briefly again. Other hon. Members have spoken on behalf of their constituencies. With my two colleagues who represent the other Croydon constituencies I have interviewed deputations of teachers, have spoken to many individual teachers and have had much correspondence on this important matter. There can be no doubt of the very strong feeling the teachers have about the present situation. Rightly or wrongly, they feel that they are not getting a square deal. I very much hope that when the teachers have had the opportunity to study the speech made by the Minister today they may take a rather different view of the circumstances.
  It is vital for Her Majesty's Government to take the teaching profession with them. It is however obvious that the profession is not well paid in comparison with other professions, and indeed in comparison with many trades it is also very poorly paid. I sincerely hope that
  298
  the Burnham Committee will soon make fair awards to the teachers more in accordance with the times in which we live. The Minister conveyed the idea that the Committee was already sitting.
  If the teaching profession is called upon, as it will be under the Bill, even only for a time, to pay a further 1 per cent. contribution from its present pay, I do not see how any sensible hon. Member can contend that that extra payment is anything but a cut in pay. The teacher will take home less money on each occasion and, on the face of it, will have less money to use for his family. As the Minister rather implied, I do not think there is much doubt that the Burnham Committee will take such increases in superannuation contribution into account, but a space of time may elapse before the Committee's recommendations can take effect, unless it backdates its recommendations, which I think it is unfortunately not allowed to do.
  On the other hand, if teachers are to receive additional benefits for their increased contributions over and above what is already provided for in the Bill I believe they will be prepared, to judge from what they have told me, to pay not only a 6 per cent. but perhaps a 61 per cent. contribution. They need to feel that they would get a substantial return for such contributions.
  One point is clear in the minds of most hon. Members: the teachers have a most urgent desire for a widows', orphans' and dependants' pension scheme, similar to that of the Civil Service. I have been in touch with the Minister of Education before his statement today to find out the cost of such a scheme. My right hon. Friend told the House that, quite apart from the capital sum which would be required, it would cost an additional 2 per cent. contribution. I believe that the profession would be prepared to pay a considerable addition towards this expense; could not the remainder be borne by the local authorities and the Exchequer combined?
  The Minister said that the local authorities might not be anxious to take on extra expense, but surely any decision of this House would eventually be upheld by the local authorities. If the local authorities knew it was the will of this House they would agree to the compromise. It is certainly not uncommon for this House

  299
  to pass legislation which monetarily affects local authorities, and I do not see why we could not do so on this occasion.
  I believe that hon. Members are now well versed in the views of the teaching profession on this matter so I will not detain them by going over the details. The country needs a sound and happy education system for our children, because it is upon these children that our future will depend. To ensure this desirable result it is most important that the Government should take the teaching profession with them. I must say that I feel strongly that there ought to be some method of compromise to encourage the provision in this Bill of a widows, orphans and dependants scheme.
  I am convinced that if there could be such a compromise all the parties concerned would come together on this Bill. I have seen very large numbers of teachers from the Croydon area, and I am quite convinced that, in the end, there would be general agreement if only this compromise could be reached in this Bill. I felt the Minister rather gave a hint of that; perhaps it could be done at a later stage of the Bill, but at any rate it is vital f-r us to strive to obtain it.
  It may be true, of course, that we are getting more women teachers into the profession in these days, but I also believe we are getting fewer men teachers, and we must in some way or other endeavour to make the profession more attractive.
  Mr. G. Thomas: Has the hon. Gentleman got figures, because I understand that we are recruiting more men, rather than fewer, at the present time, as well as women teachers?
  Mr. Harris: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman, who certainly speaks with great experience in these matters. Perhaps I put it too much on a national basis and not on a local basis, but my information locally is that while we are getting more recruits into the profession, they are women teachers, and there is a certain decline in the number of recruits of men teachers. However, I should be very glad to accept the hon. Gentleman's correction of my view.
  During my years of public life, both in local Government and in Parliament, I have always felt that the teaching profession has had a quite justifiable
  300
  grievance in regard to their employment. For the moment, there is quite a lot of animosity, more than any of us would like to see, being deployed in this matter, and I feel strongly that we should try to obtain some sort of compromise in order to ensure that the teachers themselves feel that this new Bill is a step in the right direction and an encouragement to a profession which all of us wish to see successful and flourishing.
  8.37 p.m.
  Dr. Horace King: We have heard some amazing arguments in defence of the Bill today, from the Scottish hon. Member who admitted that it does not contain the provisions for widows' pensions which all Scottish teachers insist is their most pressing demand, to those who say that by raising the pension contribution from 5 to 6 per cent., we shall provide a stepping-stone to the day when teachers will have non-contributory pensions. Finally, there has been the Minister, who seems to have been working off a hangover from his boyhood and imitating the teachers who on many occasions must have said to almost every hon. Member of this House, "It hurts me more than it hurts you, but it is going to do you good."
  It is about three years since the Government introduced the first Bill, which roused the indignation of the teaching profession, of the Opposition, and I was going to say the educated members of the Tory Party, but certainly the Members of the Tory Party who belong to the education group and are keen on education. It remained on the Order Paper of the House of Commons in silent ignominy week after week. When it eventually disappeared, it carried with it the then Minister of Education, who was transparently honest in that, as in all her actions during her period w Minister.
  The right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh staked her political destiny on the colt mathematics of actuaries and lost. I have always thought that the right hon. Lady has been treated shabbily by her party In 1951, she imposed the cuts demanded by a Cabinet from which she was ex eluded, and, when public opinion mad the Government reconsider their economy cuts, the right hon. Lady was dropped

  301
  and the new Minister was put into the Cabinet. The Government managed to get away with the idea that the right hon. Lady was the villain, and that true Toryism was to be found in the shining speeches of the new Minister.
  I find the new Bill almost analogous to the old one. It has been foisted on the public—sold to the Tory rebels. Indeed, so confident was the Minister in his approach to the House that he even tried to persuade the Opposition that this was really something for the benefit of the teachers. Just as old Toryism will peep out in the broad education policy of the Government, so I believe that in this Bill there are the same elements which were so bitterly opposed in the former Bill. I want to try to convey to the House just how bitter the teachers are, and how much more angry they are today even than they were three years ago, when the right hon. Lady introduced her Bill.
  Much as I should like to, I do not propose to run over the historical background, though I remember, after having starved my way through college, making my first "voluntary" contribution, levied on my first salary, to the hard-faced businessmen—who looked as if they had done well out of the war—who sat in the House in 1922, the time of the Geddes cuts. I want to refer only to one thing from the historical background, though it has been interesting to note that Lord Eustace Percy has been discussed more this evening than he was ever discussed for anything he did for education in his time.
  In 1933 the Actuary said that there was in actuarial deficiency of £10 million and that the answer was to increase teachers' contributions to 6 per cent. In 1948 he said that the deficiency was £102 million, and that the answer was to increase the teachers' contribution to 6 per cent. In 1951, the actuarial deficiency was some £200 million, and the Actuary said that he answer was to increase the teachers' contribution to 6 per cent. Now comes he new Bill, with a similar or greater deficiency, and again the answer is to increase the teachers' contribution to 6 per cent.
  I shall deal with the differences between he two Bills in a moment, but the stark act remains that whatever the theoretical
  302
  calculations, the answer, ever since 1933, has always been "increase the teachers' contribution by 1 per cent."—impose a wage cut on teachers of 1 per cent. of their salaries. No wonder one says that the Treasury—like the devil, according to the old Scots lady—is "gey persistent." It is no wonder that the simpler members of the teaching profession get so befogged with the actuarial issue that they spoil their strong, simple case by attacking actuaries in general.
  The Bill imposes a wage cut on teachers, and it is the first wage cut since the war.
  Mr. William Hamilton: It is not exactly the first wage cut, because only last week the Scottish Office cut the wages of teachers.
  Dr. King: I am sorry that Scotland has anticipated England by seven days.
  Mr. Rankin: But it has not been heard so often.
  Dr. King: If it were a national all-round fiscal cut of 1 per cent. of everyone's income, if everyone had to endure the 1 per cent. cut imposed on teachers—on top of Purchase Tax and everything that the Government have failed to do to reduce the cost of living and combat inflation—the issue would be political. As presented to the teaching profession it is personal, and the teachers say, rightly and indignantly "Why pick on us?", especially as that profession is fighting a major war to win what it regards as adequate pay but is, so far, fighting a losing battle even to maintain the 1945 income. In the midst of the struggle, with a new round just a few months ahead in Burnham, the imposition of a cut on men and women teachers of 1 per cent. has blown the lid off.
  My fellow trade unionists will appreciate what I mean when I say that usually the rank and file are the bitter enemies of the executive. Gunning for the executive is a traditional British pastime, but I attended the protest meeting—the special conference of the National Union of Teachers—and the most remarkable feature of it was the complete unity between the platform and the floor of conference. That is some measure of the intensity of feeling which exists inside the teaching profession.

  303
  Let us be quite clear about the facts on the actuarial calculations. So far there has never been any deficiency on the pension scheme; indeed it makes a profit every year for the Treasury, and that profit balance is piling up year by year. Now it is more than £200 million, and the pension scheme will go on accumulating profits for about another fourteen years. It is agreed on both sides that those profits earn a notional interest of 3½ per cent. The Treasury tried to cut it to 3 per cent. and grudgingly conceded 3½ per cent., which was not an unexpected concession in the moneylenders' paradise which we are making of Britain where, by their policy, the Government are deliberately raising the interest on everything except the notional interest charged on their spending.
  After another fourteen years there will come a year when more is paid out of the pensions Account than is paid in during that year by teachers; in time the £200 million balance will be eaten away until, says the Actuary, at some date in the future all the notional reserves and interest on them will have gone, and the State itself, some years ahead, will have to start meeting some kind of annual deficiency. It is the total of what someone will have to meet in the years ahead, when the present Minister, his predecessor and his Socialist successor will have long laid down office, if they have not laid down much more than that, that the Actuary is worried about.
  Here the difference between the two Bills lies. The old Bill said that the Government would meet two-thirds of the actuarial deficiency and teachers therefore would have to pay 6 per cent. The new Bill says that the Government will meet three-thirds of the actuarial deficiency, and still the teachers will have to pay 6 per cent. Here one might note the artless innocence of the former Minister who pledged remote successors to a mere two-thirds, and the consummate skill of the present Minister, who swings his party and The Times into line by pointing out that he is drawing a bigger cheque on posterity than his predecessor was prepared to draw.
  I want to be fair. The Minister has pledged posterity to meet three-thirds but has also pledged that the teachers will not again be troubled with further increases in contributions. I understand that
  304
  teachers value that as a stabilising action which is worth something. But again, the Minister's predecessor, who would not give so firm a pledge, may have been a little nearer the mark when we remember that what a Parliament can do a future Parliament can undo. The only thing teachers are certain about in pensions history is that once a charge is levied on them it is never taken off.
  The new Bill goes much further. There may be in the future actuarial deficiencies of which the present Actuary is not aware. They are not within his ken. The Minister has persuaded local education authorities to undertake this on behalf of future Associations of Municipal Corporations and County Councils Associations, but why are there to be deficiencies in the years ahead? It is well to be clear on this point, a little clearer than the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) was. If it is because pensions are going to be really better than they used to be there might be some justification for raising the contribution which teachers make. But the new benefits in the new Bill were all in the old Bill, and the former Minister spoke of those extra benefits as being financially negligible in their cost.
  The two real reasons for the future imbalance of the account are that people are living longer and the cost of living has risen. Incidentally, as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West has since admitted, the moving towards each other of minima and maxima in teachers' salaries is really beneficial actuarially rather than harmful, as I interrupted the hon. Gentleman to point out.
  Teachers salaries have risen as the value of money has gone down. But whilst a pension is based on the latest salary, paid in the latest and cheapest money, many of the teachers' contributions were paid on smaller salaries, but in much more valuable money. So every rise in the cost of living which produces a wage increase upsets the actuarial calculations of any, indeed every pension scheme, including the whole of the financial support which the Government have pledged themselves to give to noncontributory schemes, like the Civil Service pension scheme.
  Indeed, that is why my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) once called attention in this House to the danger of placing excessive value

  305
  on the reports of actuaries in a period of inflation. I admit that in the future there will be the new feature of equal pay. It is a tragedy that this comes so late that many women teachers will not get the benefit of equal pay in the pensions which they will draw. The long-term effect of equal pay will be to some extent to add to the actuarial deficiency.
  Again, says the teacher, "Why pick on us?" Inflation was not caused by teachers. Teachers bear the general effects of inflation like any other members of the community. The injustice to women in this country was not confined to women teachers. No other body since the war has been asked to bear an extra charge on top of those borne by the teachers, like everyone else in the general pattern of citizens, because of inflation and of social injustice.
  Moreover, the actuarial deficiency could be met by 11½ per cent.—not12 per cent.—by a 1½ per cent. increase in the total contributions of teachers and local education authorities. It is only the cautious or the tidy mind of the Actuary that shoves in an extra ½ per cent. Why not make the scheme actuarially sound at 11½ per cent.
  So far as Scotland is concerned, the actuarial estimate of the sum needed is only 11 per cent., and Scottish teachers ought to be even more indignant than English teachers about it.
  Mr. Ross: They are.
  Dr. King: I now turn to the local authorities, who are to pay 6 per cent. instead of 5 per cent. I am a local authority man and a member of an education committee, and I think that I know the feeling of local authorities. They feel that an extra 1 per cent. is more than enough to carry, and that they are being generous in taking on any future hypothetical deficiency.
  I am glad that the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) put his finger on one of the roots of the problem behind this Bill—the problem of local government finance. I have always thought that national government should bear a greater portion of that part of education finance which is national and irrevocably shaped by the nation, and which the local authorities merely have to administer.
  306
  That may not be the answer, but if there is a problem in local government finance, and indeed a problem of local government finance which every major action of the Government since they took office at the Election has made more serious, the teachers again say, "Why attempt to solve the grave burdens that face local government finance by having a snipe at the teaching profession?" I know that the 1½ per cent., if the local authorities were to bear the whole of it, would be a burden on the local authorities. But it is worth pointing out that half of what local authorities have to meet is borne already by the State in grants and if the local authorities took on the whole of the actuarial burden of the extra 1½ per cent. they would really be paying only ¾ per cent.
  I may be a simpleton, but I do not see why the Government should not make their contribution to this attempt to reconcile the claims of the local authorities and the teachers over this pension business by themselves undertaking the 1½ per cent. If the Minister had done that he would have pleased both teachers and local authorities, and he might have made himself qualified to regard himself as behaving in a statesmanlike way.
  As it is, the right hon. Gentleman may be clever, but he has certainly driven a wedge between the local authorities and the teachers who should be partners and who at individual level—individual teacher, individual local authority man, local authority committee and individual teachers' group—esteem each other highly. If it is good tactics to separate the two and use one to damn the other, it is certainly very bad long-term strategy. It is for that reason that I have urged the Government and the Minister to drop the Bill.
  The men and women whom the Minister is embittering hold the future of Britain in their hands. I am worried when I see the teaching profession, instead of thinking single-mindedly about the job and how best to do it, giving more time and anxiety to the battle of holding on to, let alone improving, their standard of living than they did before the war.
  I spent 25 years in a grammar school where in the staff room we spent a great deal of time talking about education, books, art, music, the children, and certainly the headmaster, but very little

  307
  about our financial condition and the problem of money. Those days are gone. The teaching profession is bitter today because the Bill is the culmination of a number of attempts to impose upon the profession a new charge for pensions when teachers are spending most of their time battling to maintain their standard of living.
  Let us remember that since the war we have asked the teachers to make bricks without straw, to live in crowded classrooms, to go on working in slum schools which ought to have been pulled down fifty years ago, and to create the revolution of secondary education for all. Very often the country does not appreciate what a tremendous achievement British education, particularly in the secondary sphere, has made in the last ten years. The teachers have lived up to the demands that have been made upon them. Men and women who are doing such a good job have a right to expect more from this Legislature. Therefore, I ask the Minister to take the Bill back, to remove the obnoxious 6 per cent. charge Clause and let us have a Council of State, when he brings in a new Bill, to lick its other provisions into shape.
  Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. May I utter my protest, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, against the fact that only one Scottish Member on each side of the House has been called in this debate? No wonder that this is often referred to as the English House of Commons.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): That is not a point of order.
  8.54 p.m.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: It seems to me from the course of the debate that it would have been better if we had had a separate Bill to deal with teachers' superannuation in Scotland when it is realised that in the case of this Bill so little chance has been given to Scottish Members to voice the protests of Scottish teachers. It has been said time and time again that if English teachers feel strongly about the Bill, Scottish teachers feel even more strongly about it.
  A comparison of the Bill with the 1954 Bill shows that, in spite of all that has been said by hon. Members opposite, there is indeed very little difference between them. There is little in this second Bill,
  308
  which we are discussing today to make it more palatable either to Scottish or English or Welsh teachers.
  When the original Bill was published there was a great outcry from teachers all over Britain, and even a Tory Government came to realise that it, added to all the blows which had been directed against education, was making the Government unpopular in the country. Ruthless as usual, that Tory Government made a scapegoat of the Minister. At that time I felt sorry for the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh) because I realised, as many in this House and throughout the country realised, that a fairy tale was being spread by the Tory Party and the Tory Government to the effect that the educational policy which had been pursued from October, 1951, was due to a poor, inefficient Minister and was not due to the specific policies of a Tory Government. That was the fairy tale spread about the country and, for that reason, spread by the Government—
  Mr. E. Partridge: By the Socialist Party.
  Miss Herbison: It was because they realised the unpopularity of their education policy. It was because they realised that an Election was in the offing that they sacrificed the Minister of Education. This is abundantly clear when we realise that it is the hon. Gentleman the Member for Fife, East (Mr. Henderson Stewart), the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, who is to wind up this debate. He and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland carried out exactly the same policy in Scotland as the Minister of Education carried out in England and Wales. They were carrying out a policy dictated by the Tory Cabinet, and especially by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the then Minister of Housing and Local Government. Yet we have both of them here, still continuing the same policy. I expect the Tories felt that their purpose was served by sacking one Minister, but they should realise that it did not pass without notice in Scotland.
  Indeed, the one outstanding difference in the two Bills lies in the names of the Ministers adorning the backs of them. There is perhaps another difference. The Bill carrying the name of the right hon. Lady the Member for Moss Side, was withdrawn before the Election and this

  309
  second one has been introduced as quickly as possible after the General Election.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude) said that the Labour Government had had the report of the Government Actuary in 1948 and asked what we had done about it. The Government of 1933 also had the report of the Government Actuary showing that there was a £10 million deficiency even then, but what did that Government do about it? One thing I can say from this Box tonight is that a Labour Government did not introduce a Bill which would make a cut in the salaries of teachers—
  Mr. Maude: Because of the Election.
  Miss Herbison: Not at all. It was because they realised, as I will try to show in the rest of my speech, how important it is that we should attract teachers to this profession.
  The Bill is part and parcel of the greatest confidence trick ever perpetrated on the British public. Trying to win votes, the Tories made the sky the limit in their promises. What a different story it has been since the General Election. How different it has been listening to Ministers' proposals time after time cutting the standard of living of our people. The Bill will cut the standard of living of an important section of our people.
  I warn right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite of the gravity of the danger involved when pre-election promises are ruthlessly broken by post-election deeds. Our democratic way of life—indeed, our democratic form of Government—is on trial in the world today, and it is of the greatest importance that this nation should show that it can work. Woe betide the Members of the Government who are shamelessly bringing it into disrepute. They are doing harm not only to this country but to the cause of democracy in every corner of the world.
  The Second Reading of the Bill has been taken with indecent haste. Hon. Members have complained that there has been a space of only ten days between the Bill's presentation and its Second Reading. Was the Minister afraid of his back benchers? It is clear that those back benchers are pulled in different directions at different times. Time and time again they bay at Ministers to cut public expenditure, and then, poor souls, they are
  310
  sometimes so worried about votes that they are not very sure what they ought to do. Was the Minister afraid that this time his back benchers would be so scared of teachers' representations that he hurried the Bill?
  Sir D. Eccles: Not at all.
  Miss Herbison: The Minister says "not at all," but in his speech he did not give a single reason why only ten days should elapse since the Bill's presentation and its Second Reading.
  On 2nd December the London correspondent's column in the Glasgow Herald said:
  "The Government have evidently decided to be quick on the draw with the Teachers' (Superannuation) Bill. This is jet-propelled treatment indeed compared with the test-bed failure of the 1954 Measure which never got properly started and remained an object of derision on the Order Paper for the better part of a session before it was ultimately withdrawn for re-tooling."
  I have a different term for the re-tooling, and I have already expressed it.
  It is evident that the Minister was taking a precaution against any undermining of the loyalty of his back benchers. I have learned from the Educational Institute of Scotland that nine days ago only three copies of the Bill were available in Edinburgh for that important body to discuss. It was not until eight days before the Second Reading that the Scottish teachers in Edinburgh were able to get copies of the Bill in bulk. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), in an excellent speech, pointed out that many of the teachers in Ayrshire even to date have difficulty in getting copies of the Bill. That is a most scurvy treatment of a noble and responsible profession.
  The Minister tried to prove that the teachers have not been singled out, but he gave us no evidence to show that that was not the case. Indeed, it would have been difficult to have given us evidence, because the teachers are the one body of public employees singled out for a cut in salary. Even some hon. Members opposite have realised that this increase of 1 per cent. in contribution is a 1 per cent. cut in the teacher's salary.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) and other hon. Members on this side of the House have gone into the whole history of superannuation. The first scheme started was

  311
  non-contributory, and the reason given in 1918 for a non-contributory scheme was that it was to attract people of the right quality into the profession. Are we in such a position today that we no longer need an attraction to get properly qualified people? Every report clearly shows that the need was never greater than today for more and more highly qualified people in the profession.
  The whole history of teachers' superannuation is an indictment of the parsimony of Tory Government after Tory Government. My right hon. and hon. Friends have quoted from the speeches made in debates on the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1925. Those of us who have read every single word of those debates have no doubt that the 5 per cent., which it was decided at that time should be paid by the teachers, was considered to be the last word on teachers' contributions for superannuation. In spite of that the Government today is asking for this extra 1 per cent.
  I have also been interested in the numbers of hon. Members opposite who, in trying to draw away all blame from the Minister of Education and from their Government, have placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of the local authorities. The Minister himself has said that this was not a political matter and that all local authorities, whether Labour or Tory controlled, wanted the increase and were opposed to teachers' superannuations for pensions for widows, orphans and dependants. I want to ask the Joint Under-Secretary who will reply whether that can also apply to Scotland.
  I have different information. I understand that the Joint Under-Secretary of State was present with the Minister of State at a meeting of local authority associations and the Educational Institute of Scotland on 20th October. Is it not the case that at that meeting the representative of Glasgow Corporation, a corporation which employs the greatest number of teachers of any authority in Scotland, told him that the authority was so concerned at the scarcity of teachers and the effect of the shortage on Scottish education that it believed it necessary to retain the good will of the teachers.
  I want the attitude of this great Labour authority to be placed on record. It
  312
  said that it wanted to keep the good will of the teachers, that it was prepared to listen to the teachers' representations on material improvements and that it was also prepared to contribute its share towards the cost of these improvements. The Joint Under-Secretary says that that is so. Then, the Minister was completely wrong when he said that local authorities were opposed to any of the things we have asked for.
  Sir D. Eccles: The hon. Lady must get that right. I most carefully said, "All the local authorities in England and Wales." I am just as well aware as she is that there is a Scottish exception.
  Miss Herbison: When the Minister, not once but on a number of occasions, tried to make the point—and he was dealing with the whole Bill—that this was not political and that local authorities both Labour and Conservative were against it, he ought in fairness to have said that the biggest local authority in Scotland did not take that point of view. I am certain that if that local authority had been listened to and if the Ministers had used their influence, they might have got the local authorities to have taken a different line.
  The Minister has been asked why there should be these increases from 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. and from 10 per cent. to 12 per cent., especially when one improvement in the Bill is that the Government are to take over the actuarial deficiency. He said that we had to take into account equal pay and the greater age to which members of the teaching profession were living. I have read very carefully the Reports of the two Working Groups in England and in Scotland. They show clearly that for England there should be a contribution of 11½ per cent. but for Scotland the contribution should be 11 per cent. They show clearly that that 11 per cent. covers equal pay, the greater age to which teachers are living and increases which have not yet been made in Scotland but which I understand will be reported soon. They are the increases, as a result of the recommendation of the Appleton Committee for specialist teachers in Scotland.
  To cover all these increases, a contribution of 11 per cent. was sufficient; yet, for good measure, both Ministers stick to 12 per cent. The Minister has made no

  313
  case at all today, and neither have his hon. Friends, for raising the contribution to 12 per cent. It would have been difficult indeed for him to make out such a case, because when one examines the benefits accruing to the teachers under this Bill, every one of them could have been given by ·3 of 1 per cent. rise in contribution, which, I expect, would be divided between the teachers and the local authorities.
  The Tory back benchers have been in a serious difficulty. They do not want to let the Minister down, and they do not want to appear in a wrong light in the eyes of the teachers, and so they have been balancing on a tightrope and trying to get the best of both worlds. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and some of his hon. Friends have tried to prove that this increase in contribution is necessary; that it is making viable this fund—although it is not a fund, it is an Account—and that once we have got this cleared out of the way we can begin to discuss a non-contributory scheme for teachers. I have never heard such nonsense in my life. The suggestion of an non-contributory scheme came from several Members, including the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West. I always listen to his speeches with the greatest attention, but I think that today his did himself less than justice.
  Then we had a statement from the hon. Member for South Ayrshire—[HON. MEMBERS: "Central Ayrshire."]—yes, the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Nairn). The suggestion would never have come from the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire hopes that within twelve months we shall have a non-contributory scheme. It is complete dishonesty on the part of hon. Members who have made those suggestions.
  Mr. Powell: Does not the hon. Lady realise that the problem of the responsibility for future deficiencies is the great obstacle to converting a contributory into a non-contributory scheme, and that once that is disposed of the way is open? [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the last Bill?"] It was not in it.
  Miss Herbison: Even were I to accept that, what is hindering the Government from carrying out both of these things
  314
  in one Bill? There is nothing at all. It is not as if there is any great rush in this matter. It has been said time and again that forty years will elapse before we shall begin to spend more than we are drawing in. Forty years will elapse before we have this great actuarial deficiency. At least the Government have many years of a breathing space and they could consider what they should do about this matter. I say to hon. Members opposite that their suggestions have no validity whatever.
  Most teachers are responsible citizens. They have put forward their case fairly. They say that if the Bill had made proper provision for widows, orphans and dependants, they would have been willing to pay their share in a scheme. There is no such provision in the Bill. We have been dealing mainly with actuarial deficiencies—with 5 per cent., 6 per cent. and 1 per cent. But there is a wider significance in all this—the effect upon the teaching profession in Scotland, in England and in Wales. At the present time teachers are more disgruntled and frustrated than they have ever been in the history of teaching. This Measure will not improve their feelings.
  What effect will it have on recruitment? It is realised that by 1957 there will be a shortage of 3,300 teachers in Scotland.
  There is another and much more important side to the problem. Scotland has always prided itself upon having a great number of graduates among its teachers. Since 1951 a serious fall has occurred in the number both of honours and ordinary graduates entering this profession. The position in the West of Scotland is even worse than that for the whole of Scotland. There is another point which we should take into account, which is not often made. Many of our honours graduates entered the profession when it was considered a good one—a profession that had better pension rights and conditions than most other professions. That is not the case today, and when those men and women leave the profession there will not be a sufficient number of others to take their places. Have the Government given no thought at all to these matters?
  I want finally to make the point, in this very hurried speech—[Laughter.]—this has been a very hurried speech, because there are many, many things that could have been said. Time and time

  315
  again, ever since the Joint Under-Secretary of State became responsible for education in Scotland, he has asked the teachers of Scotland for their co-operation. He has said that he wants all the help that they can possibly give him in solving the educational problems with which we are faced. But not one suggestion of any significance which has been made by the Educational Institute of Scotland has been taken up by the Joint Under-Secretary. We sometimes talk about helping with both hands. A better metaphor for the Joint Under-Secretary in this case is that he has severely kicked Scottish education with both feet.
  I want to give my reasons for saying that, because they are closely tied up with this Measure. In November, 1951, the Joint Under-Secretary was responsible for the infamous circulars upon school building and economies. In June, 1953, he was responsible for Amendment No. 7 in the Training Regulations—regulations which lowered the educational qualifications for certain teachers, and lowered the status of the whole profession. In December, 1953, he gave his ready support to the previous superannuation Bill. In April, 1954, he was responsible for introducing salaries which did not take full account of the rise in the cost of living which had occurred since 1951.
  His latest blow at Scottish education was discussed in this House recently. In introducing equal pay he lowered the scales of new entrants to the profession. Now we have this Bill. What a sorry mess the Scottish Tory Ministers have made of education. What a record of incompetence. What a record of a Government that do not realise that if we are to raise the standard of living, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer boasted in that pre-Election speech, by 25 per cent.—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, to double it."] By 50 per cent. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, 100 per cent."] By 100 per cent., as hon. Members remind me—in 25 years, the only way to do it is by having an educated manpower in many industries. The only way to get that is by ensuring that we have it first of all in the teaching profession.
  The Bill, with all the other measures which I have mentioned, is militating against getting an educated manpower. If the Government are really serious about
  316
  attracting recruits to the profession, I ask them to withdraw the Bill, have further consideration with teachers and local authorities, and introduce a Bill that will take account of the desires of the teaching profession.
  9.32 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. Henderson Stewart): I know that the House would expect me first to join with those who have congratulated my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. J. Harvey) upon a most effective and accomplished maiden speech. We all trust that he may frequently adorn our debates.
  Before referring to the remarks of the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) may I say to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) and to the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) that I did note that they raised a number of small but important points. I think the hon. Member for Cardiff, West himself agreed they were small points.
  Mr. G. Thomas: There were some bigger ones.
  Mr. Stewart: Yes, but the hon. Member also said they were Committee points. We shall examine them all in Committee. If he and his hon. Friends have any other points which they would like to raise, those points will be very carefully considered as Amendments.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North complained that we did not have a special Scottish Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I grant that there is always a case for asking for a separate Bill, but most of us are agreed that since this matter affects both countries in more or less the same way, and the changes proposed in the Bill affect both countries in more or less the same way, there was not a case on this occasion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The hon. Lady complained about the shortage of time between the publication of the Bill and the Second Reading. I am sorry if inconvenience was caused to her or to the teachers of Scotland. Of course, ample opportunity will now be available to us all.
  I know that the hon. Lady did not mean to be as rough to me as she sounded. I am not very greatly perturbed when she

  317
  tells me that I have no friends among the teachers in Scotland, and that my record is one of attack upon the teachers all through. It is not so. I have enjoyed the closest friendly relations with teachers of all kinds in Scotland, and I still do. I am glad to have co-operated with them and I trust that I may be allowed to continue to do so in the days immediately ahead. If I have the time before I finish, I will give the hon. Lady chapter and verse to prove that my actions, and those of my right hon. Friends, far from doing harm to Scottish education, have proved of the greatest advantage to Scottish education in the last three years.
  It is quite clear that we have been dealing with a topic of considerable interest to many hon. Members. Indeed, I have not listened to so much impressive oratory from the other side of the House, all on the same theme, for quite a long time, and that in itself is quite impressive. It almost seemed that on this relatively limited topic of teachers' superannuation, the Opposition have at last discovered a talisman to unity. [Interruption.] Well, I observe that on every other policy proposal—financial, economic and international—the party opposite has claimed three years before it is to be expected to have made up its mind, but on this question, namely, whether the teachers' contributions to their pensions should be increased by an average of £5 per year, hon. Members are, for some strange reason, instantaneously absolutely and unanimously decided upon action. That is a very odd thing.
  I have heard a lot of complaint about what we have done and what we have not done, but hon. and right hon. Members opposite were themselves in power for six years. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the Bill?"] I am coming to the Bill, but this has a lot to do with it. As has been shown, they themselves had the accounts of the Actuary in December, 1950, but it is noticeable that they took no action on that report at all.
  I would now like to ask them a question. At the time when they left office in 1951, they had not announced either that the contributions should be increased—and the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North said they would not have done that—or announced that the deficiencies would be made good wholly by the Exchequer. If they had intended
  318
  that the deficiencies should be made good and that nothing would fall upon the teachers, why did they not tell that good news to the country? Of course, the truth was that they had no plan. As in every other major proposition, they funked constructive action.
  Let me now pass from the Opposition to the teachers. Of course, this is an important matter for the teachers, and if anybody had any doubt about that, our mail in the last few days has proved the contrary. Not all the letters that we have had have been hostile, although most of them have been—but by no means all. [Interruption.] Oh, no; I must tell the House that I have been struck by the attitude of the older experienced men in the profession whom I have recently met, and I should like to read the House just a paragraph or two from a letter which I had yesterday from a Scottish teacher. [Interruption.] We have heard the other side of the case, and I have no doubt that the House in its fairness will permit me to present this side.
  This is a letter from a teacher in Midlothian, who says:
  "I cannot accept the policy the E.I.S. is pursuing with regard to the Teachers' (Superannuation) Bill. With 48 years recorded teaching service behind me, I may represent only a small section, compared with the hordes of younger people whose retirement is far off. But these are men and women who, like myself, would welcome the passing of this Bill without any further delay. To us, it affords a new hope of casement in the grim prospects of retirement."
  Mr. David J. Pryde: Will the Joint Under-Secretary allow me, for one moment—
  Hon. Members: Give way.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Henderson Stewart.
  Mr. Stewart: I have no doubt that hon. Members opposite are surprised that I should read both the good and the bad parts of this letter. I could so easily have left out that section, but I wanted the House to have the benefit of this man's experience.
  I read only this one further sentence:
  "Although a member of the E.I.S. of very long standing I dissent from their views on this Bill, and cannot understand their unrealistic attitude to the situation that confronts them. This attitude has, in my view, already prevented many teachers from enjoying the improved benefits offered in the 1954 Bill."
  Mr. Pryde Mr. Pryde rose—
  Mr. Stewart: I am sorry, I cannot give way. I have quoted this letter—
  Mr. G. Thomas: On a point of order. Is it not in accordance with the courtesy of the House that, if an hon. Gentleman quotes a letter from an hon. Member's constituent, that hon. Member is usually given the right to reply?
  Mr. Speaker: The rule is that, unless the hon. Member who is in possession of the Floor gives way, an hon. Member is not entitled to remain on his feet.
  Mr. Stewart: I quoted that letter because it seems to reflect the views of very large numbers of responsible teachers, and also because I honestly believe that much if not indeed most, of the present agitation against the Bill, is based upon a misconception of its contents and purpose. If hon. Members will bear with me, I should like to dispel misunderstanding and remove doubts.
  It is quite clear, and it has been repeated over and over again—
  Mr. Woodburn: Can the Joint Under-Secretary say how old this teacher is? That is what is worrying the rest of us—if he has been teaching for forty-eight years?
  Mr. Stewart: He does not tell me in the letter, but no doubt I can find out. I cannot believe that the right hon. Gentleman is trying to be rather facetious about aged and experienced teachers.
  Mr. Woodburn: We are a little puzzled as to the man's interest in superannuation, if he has been teaching for forty-eight years. I can understand his not objecting to increased contributions if he is not going to pay them but is anxious to get the improved benefits.
  Mr. Stewart: I think the best answer I can give the right hon. Member is to give him the letter—[An HON. MEMBER: "Give the name."]—of course with the name and address—and the right hon. Member can address his rather pointed questions to the gentleman himself.
  The objection to the Bill has been stated over and over again. It is largely, if not entirely, an objection to the rise in the rate of contribution. Let us face that particular issue. Why do we want
  320
  to raise contributions? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why? "] The answer is known to every hon. Member, and is known and understood by every teachers' leader in the country. If there is any doubt about it in the mind of anyone let them read the two Reports of the working parties, where everything is stated with the utmost clarity.
  Both the English and Scottish schemes have been out of balance for many years—the English one since 1933, nearly a quarter of a century ago, and the Scottish one since not many years later. In 1951, the House was made aware that the deficiencies had amounted to the considerable figure of £113 million. A little later the figures revealed by the next examination were given. No one now disputes that today the deficiency is of the order of £300 million, and the working parties have both accepted the Actuary's view that to keep the schemes solvent, with the aid of the financial proposals of the Government, a rise in the combined contributions from 10 per cent. to something of the order of 12 per cent. is inescapable. That is declared in the Reports of the working parties and accepted. Let us not forget that the working parties were composed of accredited, responsible, respected representatives of the teachers. The principle and the approximate size of the increased contributions needed are no longer in dispute.
  It seems, therefore, that the only important issues between us in this House and outside are three: first, whether the actual increase should be to 12 per cent. or to 11½ per cent. and 11¼ per cent. which the Actuary suggested in the case of the English and Scottish schemes; second, whether the contributions of the authorities and teachers should be the same or weighted on the side of the authorities; and, third, whether the Bill should make provision for a widows' and dependants' pension scheme like that of civil servants.
  As to the first matter, the precise rate, the Government propose that the combined rate of contribution of employers and employees should be 12 per cent. of salary. I do not think it is really disputed anywhere that, to meet the benefits for teachers now serving, a rate of considerably more than 12 per cent. on the present salary scales is required. As the House

  321
  knows, it is precisely to meet that obligation that the Government have shown readiness to accept liability for the deficiency at the date of the commencement of the scheme.
  In the case of new entrants the Actuary and the working party agreed that rates of 11½ per cent. or 11¼ per cent. would be sufficient only upon certain conditions; that is to say, if there were no salary increases and no changes in other factors, such as longevity. It would be wholly unrealistic to think that there would be no changes in salaries in future, unless we are to assume the very opposite of what we all expect, which is that the position of this country will improve, and we will all grow more wealthy.
  It is inevitable that teachers' salaries will rise because they will be entitled to a growing share of the national wealth. That is inevitable and, that being so, it follows that the charges upon the benefits of the fund will themselves grow. No Government can shut their eyes to that matter. It is, therefore, no more than elementary prudence to round off the combined contribution at 12 per cent. with, as hon. Members know, the added provision that future deficiencies, as they arise, will be covered by increased contributions by the local authorities, grant-aided as usual.
  It is this consideration that I beg the House to reflect upon, particularly those hon. Members with local authority experience. It is this consideration which forms the basis of the scheme now proposed. The Government's offer to meet the deficiency existing at the beginning of the new scheme, their readiness to maintain the rate of interest at 31 per cent., and the acceptance by the local authorities of the liability for meeting any future deficiencies—these three undertakings were made on the clear understanding that the rate of contribution by employers and employees would be 6 per cent. each.
  That, in fact, was the essence of the Tripartite scheme which my right hon. Friend announced to the House. If local authorities are to accept responsibility for meeting deficiencies, then it is only fair and prudent not to start with a contribution rate cut to the bare minimum so that a deficiency is bound to arise almost at once. The Government chose to raise the contributions to 12 per cent.
  322
  for Scotland as well as for England and Wales and I am quite sure that wisdom will support our decision. [Interruption.] I am endeavouring to answer the points put by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  The next question was who should pay and who should pay what. The hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short) and other raised that matter. It is complained in certain quarters that in other schemes differential rates are paid by employers and employees. That is not so, as the House knows, in the case of local government schemes. It is so in the case of the National Health Service, where the employers pay 8 per cent. and the employees 6 per cent. I should like to explain to the House how that arises.
  The total of 14 per cent. required for the National Health Service scheme when it started in 1948 was calculated by reference to a rate of interest, not of 3½ per cent., but of 2½ per cent., which automatically required a higher contribution than 12 per cent. I am sure that the House by now has appreciated that the rate of interest is directly related to the rate of contribution. Moreover, the benefits which were being offered by the National Health Service scheme, although presented in a more up-to-date style, were regarded as actuarially about the same as the benefits in the local government scheme. In that case, the employees were paying 6 per cent. and the employers an equal contribution.
  I ask the House to note this point. The employers in the National Health Service scheme are also responsible today, and are paying today, about an extra 2 per cent. to avoid deficiencies, so that in practice the employers, in respect of National Health Service Schemes, are paying 8 per cent., and, unless my guess is very far wrong, sooner or later, with the rise in salaries of teachers, the local authorities will have to meet a deficiency in respect of teachers. It may well be, therefore, that before many years have passed the local authorities will be paying in Scotland and England a higher contribution. It may well be 8 per cent. and 6 per cent. I trust that when hon. and right hon. Members reflect on that kind of issue they will understand the position.
  I should like to say a few words about widows' pensions. I should like to say a great deal if there were time. As the

  323
  House has already been informed, the difficulty is not that we on these benches would not like a scheme. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Education tried immensely hard to persuade the local authorities to play in this matter, but the local authorities, with the single exception of Glasgow, were adamant. They would not consider co-operating in the introduction of a scheme along Civil Service lines—that is, one in which the local authorities would make an equal contribution with the teachers.
  While that position remains, it is manifestly impossible for a Government to introduce that kind of pension scheme, but we have in the Bill a provision for another kind of scheme. I would ask the House to let us proceed with that one as quickly as we can. I assure the House, as did my right hon. Friend, that we should like to proceed to another step and that we shall do so as soon as it is possible.
  I was asked questions about quarterly and monthly pensions. In Scotland there has been strong pressure for many years to introduce monthly pensions. While there is not now time to go into the matter, I can tell the House that we are examining this new proposal put to us,
  and some suggestions put to us by office routine experts that by improving organisation and methods the payments could be made monthly instead of quarterly, without exceptional extra expense. I hope that our examination may show that that is so. If it does, we shall try to do it.
  In conclusion, I should like to answer the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North. Some of my hon. Friends have shown in the debate that the Bill is one of many steps that the nation is taking and must continue to take for the development of education. I would only add that so far our record in this matter of education has been good. Judged by any test hon. Members might like to make, I claim that the facts prove that we have been forward-looking. Whether the test be building achievements, the increase in the number of teachers coming into the profession in Scotland and England, or the increase in salaries—in all these and other matters we have made progress. It is in that spirit and as part of that progress that we propose the Bill.
  Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
  The House divided: Ayes 299, Noes 249.

  Division No. 72.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E

  Eden, Rt.Hn. Sir A. (Warwick&L'm'tn)

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Arbuthnot, John

  Campbell, Sir David

  Erroll, F. J.

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Carr, Robert

  Farey-Jones, F. W

  Ashton, H.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Fell, A.

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Channon, H.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Atkins, H. E.

  Cole, Norman

  Fisher, Nigel

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Balniel, Lord

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Fort, R.

  Barber, Anthony

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Foster, John

  Barlow, Sir John

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Barter, John

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Freeth, D. K.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Beamish, Maj. Tufton

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Crouch, R. F.

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Glover, D.

  Bidgood, J. C.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Godber, J. B.

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Gower, H. R.

  Black, C. W.

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Body, R. P.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Green, A.

  Bossom, Sir A. C.

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Braine, B. R.

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Gurden, Harold

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Hare, Hon. J. H.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  McAdden, S. J.

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Robertson, Sir David

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

  Mackie, J. H. (Calloway)

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Russell, R. S.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Hay, John

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Macleod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Sharples, R. C.

  Heath, Edward

  Macmillan, Rt.Hn. Harold(Bromley)

  Shepherd, William

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Maddan, Martin

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Maitland, Cdr. J.F.W.(Horncastle)

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Speir, R. M.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  Hope, Lord John

  Marples, A. E.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Marshall, Douglas

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Mathew, R.

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Maude, Angus

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Mawby, R. L.

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Howard, John (Test)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Storey, S.

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Hughes, Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Molson, A. H. E

  Summers, C. S. (Aylesbury)

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Hurd, A. R.

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

  Nairn, D. L. S.

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Neave, Airey

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Johnson, Erie (Blackley)

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Kaberry, D.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Keegan, D.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Kerr, H. W.

  Osborne, C.

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Page, R. G.

  Vickers, Miss J. H.

  Kirk, P. M.

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Vosper, D. F.

  Lagden, G. W.

  Partridge, E.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Lambton, Viscount

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Water house, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Leavey, J. A.

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Pott, H. P.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Whitelaw, W.S.I. (Penrith & Border)

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Wills, C. (Bridgwater)

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (Sutton Coldfield)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Rawlinson, P. A. G.

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.

  Redmayne, M.

  Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Mr. Studholme.

  NOES

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Albu, A. H.

  Beswick, F.

  Burke, W. A.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Blackburn, F.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Anderson, Frank

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Carmichael, J.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Baird, J.

  Boyd, T. C.

  Champion, A. J.

  Balfour, A.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Chapman, W. D.

  Bartley, P.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Clunie, J.

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Coldrick, W.

  326

  327

  Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Reeves, J.

  Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Reid, William

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Rhodes, H.

  Cove, W. G.

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Jones, Rt.Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Cronin, J. D.

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Daines, P.

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Ross, William

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Royle, C.

  Davies, Rt.Hon. Clement (Montgomery)

  Kenyon, C.

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Short, E. W.

  Deer, G.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Ledger, R. J.

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Dye, S.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Lewis, Arthur

  Snow, J. W.

  Edelman, M.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Steele, T.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  McGovern, J.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)

  Fernyhough, E.

  McLeavy, Frank

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Fletcher, Eric

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Forman, J. C.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mahon, S.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Freeman, Peter

  Mainwaring W. H.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mason, Roy

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Grey, C. F.

  Mayhew, C. P

  Thornton, E.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Timmons, J.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Tomney, F.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Grimond, J.

  Monslow, W.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Hale, Leslie

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Usborne, H. C.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne valley)

  Morrison, Rt.Hn. Herbert (Lewis'm, S.)

  Viant, S. P.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Mort, D. L.

  Wade, D. W.

  Hannan, W.

  Moss, R.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  Moyle, A.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Hastings, S.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Weitzman, D.

  Healey, Denis

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  O'Brien, T.

  West, D. G.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Oram, A. E.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Holman, P.

  Orbach, M.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Holmes, Horace

  Oswald, T.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Holt, A. F.

  Owen, W. J.

  Wigg, George

  Houghton, Douglas

  Padley, W. E.

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Paget, R. T.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Willey, Frederick

  Hoy, J. H.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Panned, Charles (Leeds, w.)

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Parker, J.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Hunter, A. E.

  Paton, J.

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Peart, T. F.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Irving, S. (Dartford)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Probert, A. R.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Janner, B.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Pryde, D. J.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St.Pncs, S.)

  Rankin, John

  Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Pearson.

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.

  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

  Question put and agreed to.

  TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918 to 1946, and so much of the Education (Scotland) Acts, 1939 to 1953, as relates to superannuation and to the employment of teachers over the age of sixty-live years, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorize—

  (1) The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any sums authorised or required to be so paid by virtue of any provisions of the said Act of the present Session (including any increase attributable thereto in the sums payable out of such moneys under any other enactment) being provisions—

  (a) increasing the rate of contributions payable by teachers and employers under the Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1918 to 1946, and providing for supplementary contributions by employers;

  (b) altering the scale of any allowances to be granted under those Acts, and providing for increased annual allowances in return for surrender of additional allowances;

  (c) amending the law with respect to the periods of recognised or contributory service, and the salary and average salary, to be taken into account for the purposes of allowances and other benefits under the said Acts, the age and other conditions governing eligibility for such allowances or benefits, and the deductions which may be made from such allowances or benefits on account of service which qualifies for other superannuation purposes;

  (d) providing for the payment of pensions to widows, children and other dependants (including widowers of married women), being pensions supported by contributions satisfied by the reduction or refund of additional allowances, death gratuities or returnable contributions, and making further provision for the allocation of benefits to spouses or dependants out of annual superannuation allowances;

  (e) enabling teaching service (including past service) other than recognised or contributory service to be treated as contributory service for the purposes of the said Acts, and providing for the restrospective recognition of certain teachers for those purposes, and for the payment or repayment of contributions in connection with the matters aforesaid.

  (2) The remission of any sums recoverable under the Education (Scotland) (War Service Superannuation Act, 1939

  (3) The payment into the Exchequer of any sums to be so paid under any provision of the said Act of the present Session, including any increase attributable to the said Act in the sums so payable under any other enactment—[Sir D. Eccles.]

  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: I was hoping that we would have some explanation from the Treasury Bench in support of this Financial Resolution, either from the Minister of Education or from the Leader of the House. I regret that there does not seem to be any representative of the Treasury in the Committee at the moment. Hon. Members opposite may not like it, but we seem to be drifting into a deplorable state of affairs when the Government think that they can push a Financial Resolution of this kind through the Committee without a word of explanation of any kind, particularly after they have suspended the Rule, apparently for the express purpose of enabling the Committee to say a few words about this Financial Resolution. I am very worried indeed about it.
  It may be that the House has given a Second Reading to the Bill, but everybody will be aware that we shall seek drastically to amend it in Committee. This is our only opportunity of inquiring from the Government whether they have drawn the terms of the Money Resolution in such a way as to enable my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself to put down those Amendments which we want to put down. I will take a specific illustration, which I am sure will appeal to the Minister of Education. As he will be aware, my hon. Friends are particularly concerned to see that the Bill is improved to include a proper widows and orphans pensions scheme. I want the Minister to tell us whether in his view the Money Resolution—and particularly sub-paragraph (d)—is drawn sufficiently widely to enable us to put down Amendments to incorporate in the Bill a proper widows and orphans pensions scheme.
  After all, I understand that the Minister has expressed himself as being favourably disposed towards such a scheme and has done what he could to persuade local authorities to adopt it, so far without success; but we live in hopes. It may be that with the Minister's good will it will still be possible to persuade local authorities to make the necessary contribution so that teachers could have a satisfactory widows and orphans pensions scheme. If that is the case, it is eminently desirable that we should be able during the Committee stage to put down the appropriate Amendments to Clause 8, which deals with that matter. So far as I can see—and I hope that the Minister will be able

  331
  to tell me that I am wrong—the Money Resolution is so tightly drawn as deliberately to exclude Amendments of that kind. If that is so, it seems to me a very significant comment on the Minister's integrity that he claims that he is anxious to be able to persuade local authorities to introduce such a scheme.
  There are no doubt other questions which will occur to my hon. Friends about other Amendments which they may want to put down. Before we part with the Resolution, we are entitled to a specific reply to my question from the Minister himself.
  10.15 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: I should like to mention one point concerning happenings somewhat earlier in our proceedings today. Earlier I raised the question with Mr. Speaker as to what course the debate would take and whether or not the Minister of Education was suitably equipped to deal with the Scottish aspect of the Bill. I was asked to wait and see how the Minister performed in his speech.
  I listened carefully to his speech, and I can certify that, I think on two occasions, he mentioned the word "Scotland" but here was no guidance at all about the effects of the Bill on Scotland. Then we came to the summing up by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and that, as far as Scotland was concerned, was not only a summing up but also an introduction—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I am building up to the point I want to make. It is a financial point. If hon. Members opposite will be patient I will come to it.
  We anticipated that from the Joint Under-Secretary of State we would hear something about Part II the provisions of which apply specifically to Scotland. We heard nothing at all about them. The hon. Gentleman may have been saying something, but he spoke so softly that I could not hear him from where I sat. This is the point on which I should like guidance. We are now making provision for the money to meet the cost of the Bill. The whole of Part II has not yet been dealt with in the House by either of the two Ministers. Is it in order—
  The Chairman: Whether it has been dealt with or not, the whole Bill was given a Second Reading a few minutes
  332
  ago, and therefore we cannot discuss it now.
  Mr. Rankin: That is the trouble. Wt. have been guided all along, and definitely guided wrongly, because neither the Minister nor the Joint Under-Secretary dealt with the provisions for which we are asked to vote money. Can we vote money for provisions that we know nothing about? I feel that the Committee cannot dispose of money in that reckless fashion. I suggest that we ought to have some idea how much of this money will be used in carrying out the provisions of Part II which apply to Scotland.
  I suggest that either the Minister on whom I depended today—he failed me; he never said a word about Scotland—or the Joint Under-Secretary, who surely should know something about Scotland, should tell us what part of the money which we are now in the process of voting will be used to carry out the provisions of the Bill which apply to Scotland. Does he know?—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Surely, it is quite impossible for us to vote money to people who do not know what they are going to do with it. I am appealing to either of the Ministers—
  Mr. George Thomas: To their good nature.
  Mr. Rankin: Yes, to their good nature—I thought for a moment the hon. Member was talking about me, because I have been very good natured. I have been here since 2.30 p.m. and this is the first time I have spoken today. Only one Scotsman on each side of the House has been called—
  The Chairman: We cannot discuss what happened during the Second Reading debate. It is entirely in the hands of the Chair as to who was called, and it does not matter whether they were Scotsmen or Welshmen or Englishmen.
  Mr. Rankin: Yes, Sir Charles. But I think it a fair point to put to either of the Ministers. I do not mind which of them answers, but will one answer my question: how much of this money is to be used in carrying out the provisions of Part II of the Bill which apply to Scotland? Can anyone on the Government Front Bench answer that?
  Mr. E. G. Willis: I wonder whether you can give us your guidance, Sir Charles, about this Money

  333
  Resolution. My point is that if we pass this Money Resolution as it stands, does it prevent Part II of this Bill from being remitted to the Scottish Standing Committee for consideration?
  The Chairman: That has been settled by the House.
  Mr. Willis: I did not hear that reply, Sir Charles. If we pass this Money Resolution, does that preclude the remitting of Part II of this Bill to the Scottish Standing Committee for consideration?
  The Chairman: I was not in the Chamber at the time when the Bill was given a Second Reading, but when that happens a Bill automatically goes to a Standing Commitee.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Which Standing Committee?
  The Chairman: It is Bills which apply only to Scotland and certified by Mr. Speaker which go to the Scottish Standing Committee.
  Mr. Willis: I think it is within your recollection, Sir Charles, that on previous occasions when a whole part of a Bill applies to Scotland that part has been sent to the Scottish Standing Committee.
  The Chairman: In any case, this Committee has nothing to do with that matter.
  Mr. B. T. Parkin: We have now reached a stage in the discussion of this Measure where we should, indeed we are obliged, concentrate our argument on the main issue of the Bill. In view of the terms of the Money Resolution, I am wondering whether it bears any relationship to arguments deployed during the Second Reading debate. I propose to speak to the Money Resolution, in which it states that there shall be devoted:
  "out of moneys provided by Parliament …"
  Had you been in the Chair, Sir Charles, during the Second Reading debate, you might have wondered whether these payments were to be made out of moneys provided by Parliament. The Money Resolution lays it down quite clearly that they are not to be paid out of teachers' contributions, or by local authorities or out of the contributions of employers or any other funds except moneys provided by Parliament.
  I submit that whatever else may come out of the discussions on this lamentable
  334
  Bill, at least they have carried public opinion a little further along the road towards an intelligent and contemporary view of retirement pensions. It is becoming increasingly accepted that salaried professions, such as the teaching profession, and indeed a wide range of other employments, should carry a guarantee of a retirement pension. Many attempts have been made over the years to provide for these pensions out of contributions, and here at last we have the admission in this Money Resolution that such schemes can come to fruition only if they are met by moneys provided by Parliament.
  Public opinion, the teaching profession, and all those who are helping in different ways to work out some method of adding to the retirement pensions provided by the State, expect that when these pensions eventually become payable they will bear some proportionate relationship to the salaries earned at the time of retirement and also to the cost of living. All the discussion about what has happened to these contributions in the past has been largely irrelevant. I do not want to develop that point. We have had various snatches of teachers' biographies. As an ex-teacher, the only little contribution I wish to make is to say that when, three or four years ago, I fell upon evil times, I was constrained to withdraw from what was called the fund—to withdraw from the Ministry of Education contributions which I had paid towards a pension many years before.
  The interesting thing was that those contributions did not buy very much for me compared with what they would have bought at the time I was constrained to pay them in. Today, in response to a Question from an hon. Member opposite, the Treasury Bench gave some information which was of great interest in connection with this Money Resolution. The questioner asked for a comparison between the purchasing power of the £ in 1924 and today, and he was told that the 1924 £ buys only 8s. 4d. worth of goods today. That is what happens to these contributions. When these matters are being negotiated, the only principle which is really established is that the teachers shall have a retirement pension scheme. In exchange for that they have to make some sacrifices out of their annual salary.
  The Minister seemed to be thinking along those lines himself when he airily said that if the teachers did not like this

  335
  1 per cent. increase they were quite at liberty to take the matter to the Burnham Committee, which, he reminded us, was sitting and ready to deal with their claim. In other words, this is merely a matter of bargaining. It means that whoever fixes the rates of salary will fix them in relation to the work done by the profession, as if there were no retirement pension, and then, if there should be such a pension, something will be knocked off.
  The second part of the Money Resolution says that there shall be paid into the Exchequer—under paragraphs (a), (b), (c), and so on—all the moneys paid under the scheme. It would be out of order for us to discuss what sort of decisions are likely to be made as to the way in which this money shall be invested, but we know what happens to it. Year by year it all goes to pay for the below-the-line investments of the Government. The £1 which I paid at the beginning of my teaching career went, with those of everybody else, to pay for some perfectly good capital investments, which have not lost their value—schools, hospitals and the various forms of Government expenditure authorised at that time. They were part of the loans. They have not lost their value.
  It comes to this. After all our discussion, all we have done is to establish a little more clearly that, however hard we try, we cannot cope with the problem of inflation. The actuaries, however clear and ingenious they are, cannot produce for us a formula which they can guarantee to operate fairly over a period of years. We might just as well admit, quite frankly, as the Money Resolution says, that the pensions themselves will be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament and that the contributions which are extracted from the teachers will be handed over to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  I have the greatest doubt whether that is in line with the arguments which have been deployed by hon. Members opposite today, and I wonder whether, even in the Government's own interest, we should pass this Money Resolution. I think that we should ask the Government to think again. We have had a general debate upon teachers this afternoon, and we can have quite a sensible discussion upon the best way to run a retirement pension scheme in this debate upon the Money Resolution.
  336
  10.30 p.m.
  One other thing remaining, however, is that, for no conceivable reason at all, the Government have chosen to inflict this token reduction in teachers' salaries at this time, and that is why we on this side of the Committee are predominantly so bitterly and irrevocably opposed to the Bill, and why I am opposed to this Money Resolution, unless it means what it says, that it is in a sense a confession by the Government that all the rest has been shadow boxing and talk, and out of mere habit they have slipped this in. The Government have imposed this token reduction in their salaries, but if they really meant that in all their schemes for retirement pensions in the future they wanted to accept the real facts of the situation as summed up in this Money Resolution, then I begin to wonder whether, although bitterly opposed to the Bill, I ought not perhaps to abstain from voting on this Resolution.
  Mr. G. Thomas: I intervene in this debate only because the Money Resolution could have a terribly cramping effect upon the Amendments which we shall seek to put forward during the Committee stage of the Bill. We have been assured earlier by the Minister and by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland that certain suggestions made from this side of the Committee, and I believe from the other side, in the course of the Second Reading debate, could be considered in Committee. I am anxious, because I feel that paragraph 1 (1, d) of the Resolution will make it impossible for us to seek to advance a scheme for widows' and orphans' benefit with additional benefit on the additional contributions. If that is so, then we realise how much airy-fairy nonsense there is in the Government saying, "We believe in a pension scheme, but you cannot have it yet."
  I want to know whether the Money Resolution will prevent the concession for which I asked the Minister earlier, that young teachers who are called up for National Service training, and who will therefore be two years short in their claim for pension, from being dealt with in Committee on the Bill. The Government must let us know these things, because if the Money Resolution is framed so badly that we cannot do what we want during the Committee stage of the Bill, then we ought to vote against this Resolution tonight. The Committee

  337
  stage will be farcical if this Money Resolution prevents our seeking these concessions on behalf of practising teachers. This Money Resolution is unusual in that it does not name a global amount. It is worded widely, I believe, but I hope that the items to which I have referred will not be ruled out if it is accepted by the Committee.
  There is one further question to which I wish to refer, and that is pension being paid monthly to teachers instead of quarterly. That might well mean a certain additional cost to the Ministry of Education. I do not say it need do, but that appears to be the argument advanced by the Ministry. If this Money Resolution is accepted, will it be impossible for us, in the Committee stage of the Bill, to seek to amend the Bill in a way which will enable pension to be paid monthly? Further, will it be possible for us to ensure that all contributory service is counted fir pensionable service?
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State called these little points. Of course, all points are little, except to the people concerned, to whom they are very big. These are points of major interest to the teaching profession, and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education will be able to say a few words on them.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I am not sure whether there should not be two Money Resolutions before the Committee. Certainly I have not been convinced that I should support this Money Resolution until we have had a much clearer explanation of how far it applies to education in Scotland. The Scottish Education Estimates are considered by the Scottish Grand Committee, and I submit that there is point in the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) that Part II of the Bill should be considered by the Scottish Grand Committee. It should be remembered that in Scotland we have our own education system.
  The provisions of the Money Resolution are rather involved and intricate. In fact, the financial provisions of the Bill relating to Scotland are so confused that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Nairn) did not understand them, and I understand that the hon. Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore) has gone home in complete confusion.
  338
  The provisions in this Money Resolution are such that, so far as they relate to Scotland, they need to be considered in great detail by the Scottish Grand Committee. That is why the Scottish Grand Committee was set up. As the Scottish Grand Committee considers education in Scotland, I submit that the present Money Resolution should be withdrawn and replaced by two Resolutions, so that one relating to Scotland may be considered by the Scottish Grand Committee.
  Mr. John Mackie: The Scottish Grand Committee was not set up at all to consider matters of finance. It was set up originally, about fifty or sixty years ago, to consider Bills which had received a Second Reading in this House.
  The Chairman: Order. That is nothing to do with the Question before the Committee.
  Mr. Hughes: I am sure that the hon. Member's intervention adds strength to my argument that a Money Resolution relating to Scottish education should be considered by the Scottish Grand Committee. Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the Estimates for Scottish education are examined in detail in that Committee, and that a whole day is allocated for their consideration?
  I hope that we shall be able to resume this debate in the Scottish Grand Committee. I think it will be generally agreed that Parts I and II of the Bill should receive very careful consideration, and I should like the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, who understands the complexities of this matter, to give us an assurance that he will earnestly consider remitting to the Scottish Grand Committee Part II of the Bill, which has had such inadequate and scant consideration in the House today.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Mr. Dennis Vosper): Like the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Rankin), who has now left the Chamber, I had no opportunity of making a speech in the Second Reading debate, but I have no intention of working my Second Reading speech off in this Committee. I am aware that I may not anticipate the Committee stage of the Bill. The hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) thought that a statement should be made by the Government, but I think he would agree that,

  339
  if any questions are raised on the Money Resolution, it is customary for them to be dealt with.
  The terms of this Money Resolution are comparatively lucid and, I assure the Committee, will permit reasonable amendment of the Bill. The hon. Member for Paddington, North (Mr. Parkin) said he failed to understand the terms of it, but I hardly—
  Mr. Parkin: I think they are extremely plain, but I could not see what relevance they bore to the discussion we had this afternoon. It seemed that the Money Resolution merely says that we affirm that the pensions scheme shall be paid for
  "out of moneys provided by Parliament"
  and that any money we get from the teachers is to be thrown into the general kitty.
  Mr. Vosper: The terms of the Money Resolution cover the terms of the Bill to which the House has given a Second Reading. I do not think the Committee wishes me to detail those terms to any extent. The only relevant point is in paragraph 1 (d), to which reference was made by the hon. Members for Islington, East and Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas). It covers Clause 8 of the Bill, which enables my right hon. Friend to establish a scheme for widows, orphans and dependants in return for a reduction of the teachers' lump sum or death gratuity. It also covers Clause 9.
  The point which both hon. Members put to me was whether it would cover a second scheme, as desired by the teachers' associations, and as raised in the Second Reading debate. I am always loath to disappoint the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, but I have to inform him that the answer is in the negative. It would not be in order for me to repeat the arguments advanced on the Second Reading, but the scheme is not possible at this moment. It is not part of the Bill to which the House gave a Second Reading and therefore I am advised that it is not covered by the Money Resolution.
  A scheme of that nature would involve an entirely new principle and a heavy charge on the Exchequer. For those reasons it is obviously not possible to include it within the terms of the Resolution. My right hon. Friend said in
  340
  the earlier debate that he would continue his efforts to find a way but that he could not see his way to include it in the Bill. That, I am afraid, is the answer to the question.
  10.45 p.m.
  The hon. Member for Cardiff, West raised one or two other points. He asked me whether the counting of contributory service to include part years would be covered by the Money Resolution so as to be capable of amendment in Committee. I am informed that the Money Resolution covers that particular point. He also asked whether the buying-in of service, to cover National Service, for instance, would be covered, but the Money Resolution does not cover that aspect, which is rather wider than just the issue of National Service. I am advised that the Bill and the Money Resolution do not cover that issue.
  The hon. Member asked, as I thought he would, about quarterly pensions. My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Mr. Henderson Stewart) did, in the closing sentences of his speech, refer to this issue and say that my right hon. Friend would be looking into it, but he did not have the opportunity of saying that it entails making about 900,000 payments a year in place of the present 300,000. I think that all hon. Members will appreciate that that would involve considerable increase in staff, and an additional charge on the Exchequer. I do not think that I can hold out any great hope that any easy solution will be found. For that reason, at the moment, the Money Resolution would not cover an Amendment to enable that to be done, but I can assure the Committee that, should my right hon. Friend find a solution, a suitable Money Resolution would be moved at the appropriate time.
  I should like to assure the Committee that there is no intention of restricting debate in the Committee stage of the Bill, but regard must be had to public expenditure. Nothing, therefore, which is not as a matter of principle included in the Bill can be included in this Resolution. It does—as I hope the hon. Member for Islington, East will agree—measure up to the requirements stated by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) in a similar debate a fortnight ago. I think he will find that, in respect of its main Clauses and principles, it is capable of reasonable amendment.

  341
  The House, three-quarters of an hour ago, gave a Second Reading to the Bill to restore solvency to the superannuation scheme for teachers. I hope that, on this less controversial issue, the Committee will pass the Money Resolution and enable the many benefits which are in the Bill to be implemented.
  Mr. Willis: This Money Resolution, when passed, will apply to England and Scotland. Can the hon. Gentleman indicate whether the Government intend to send the very large section of it which deals with Scotland to the Scottish Grand Committee?
  The Chairman: The Minister cannot answer that; it does not concern us now at all.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: The Committee is indebted to hon. Members who have put pertinent questions, and to the Parliamentary Secretary whose replies, if not always congenial, were always clear and lucid. I think he will agree that, in the end, the decision as to what this Money Resolution means, and what Amendments will be in order, will rest with the Chairman of the Standing Committee. The utmost the Government can do is to tell us in good faith what they believe the Resolution means. It does not necessarily follow that their view will prove to be correct.
  Although I do not at present wish to develop the argument, the wording of paragraph (1, d), would not appear to support quite so narrow an interpretation as that suggested by the Parliamentary Secretary but we are glad to have his assurance that, in general, it is not the Government's intention to try to restrict debate and that scope will be given for reasonable Amendments to the Bill. There may be the usual differences of opinion as to what a reasonable Amendment is, but that always happens.
  In view of that, I think the Committee would be right to approve the Money Resolution. Much as we dislike the main principle embodied in the Bill, the House having decided that principle, we now have to recognise that some of the minor Clauses of the Bill which contain advantages to teachers could not have effect unless this Resolution were carried. That being so, I trust that the Committee will approve it.
  Resolution to be reported tomorrow.

  FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANISATION (MINISTER'S SPEECH)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Godber.]
  10.50 p.m.
  Mr. H. A. Marquand: It is my opinion, which I have expressed before in this House, that the war upon want which is being conducted at present by the United Nations Organisation, by the Colombo Plan, by our own Colonial Development and Welfare Fund, is by far the most worth while of all the efforts that Governments are making at the present time. I believe it is of great importance to the political well-being and to the future human well-being of the whole of mankind that those efforts should be fostered and encouraged.
  Among the agencies which are engaged in waging the world war on want at the present time, none is more important than the Food and Agriculture Organisation. Her Majesty's Government are a member of the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, and have been since it started. That body undertakes for the information of its member Governments most valuable studies in the relationship between population and food resources in all parts of the world, seeks to forecast the movements of populations and the demand for food, and thereby enables the nations to formulate plans in this great war to which I have referred.
  It also provides, not only for nations outside our Commonwealth, but many nations inside our Commonwealth, a service of technical assistance. It is from the Food and Agriculture Organisation that the Technical Assistance Board of the United Nations gets its men; and the value of those men has, I suppose, really to be seen to be appreciated. Having seen so many of them at their work, I am profoundly convinced that the value of their work cannot be over-estimated at present.
  I am pleased to see the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food present. The right hon. Gentleman went to the eighth session of the Food and Agriculture Organisation, and made a speech in Rome on 8th November. That speech

  343
  was widely reported in the Press of the world, and I am told by those who heard it that it made a bad impression in Rome. That is what I have been told by one or two persons who were there with whom I have been able to make contact. The reports of the speech in the newspapers here and in the American newspapers made a bad impression also. I am seeking tonight to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity to tell the House exactly what the policy of Her Majesty's Government is in regard to the Food and Agriculture Organisation.
  He may be inclined to say that I am unduly suspicious, but we cannot ignore the fact that in regard to the S.U.N.F.E.D. project, the Special United Nations Fund for Economic Development, the Government have undoubtedly dragged their feet. When we read in our newspapers a speech by the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Food and Agriculture Organisation might now reduce its projected budget, we cannot help asking ourselves whether the same attitude of feet-dragging is prevailing again, as it has prevailed throughout discussions on S.U.N.F.E.D.
  The right hon. Gentleman was kind and courteous enough—as he always is—to send me a copy of his speech. There is of course no time now to go into it in detail. Perhaps it will suffice if I read the conclusion which he reached. He said:
  "I am concerned to state our broad general conclusion, and it is this. We are convinced that there is still sufficient need, and scope, for economies and savings in the programme as a whole to justify the view that the level of budget finally adopted should be substantially below the proposed 7 million dollars."
  The rest of his speech was full of excellent sentiments with which I do not propose to quarrel, but the gist of it lies there as he himself said. The Director-General of the Organisation had proposed a budget that for the coming year of 7 million dollars, and the right hon. Gentleman said that in his view it should be substantially below that figure.
  It was his attitude to that matter which caused consternation to many nations in that meeting. So much so that we read in the New York Herald Tribune of 14th November, 1955, that the Director-General of the Organisation, Mr. Cardon,
  344
  "offered to resign yesterday if the anniversary session of the F.A.O. meeting at the organisation's headquarters here did not approve his proposed 7 million dollar annual budget for the next two years. Despite his appeal, delegates, by a narrow 24–23 vote, cut the 1956 budget to 6,600,000 dollars and that for 1957 to 6,800,000 dollars."
  That cut was undoubtedly instigated by the lead given by the United States Government and by our own Government. When the United States, with its enormous surpluses of food, constitutes one of the main economic problems of the world at present, when Great Britain is beginning to find its own farmers grumbling about the import of foreign foodstuffs into this country, and asking the Minister what he is to do about it, it looks as if these two comparatively well-off nations, with their large surpluses of food and great ability to import food, were proposing to reduce the activities of the Food and Agriculture Organisation at a time when, despite all these surpluses, we all know well that the total world need for food is not abating and is still increasing, and the population is increasing so fast that these surpluses are, as it were, almost temporary.
  Whether or not it was the result of this, and of the attitude of the British and United States Governments. I hesitate to say, but Great Britain lost her seat on the governing body of the Food and Agriculture Organisation, which seems to us a most regrettable result. It may be said that, after all, we cannot expect to be on the governing body for ever. I wonder. As the right hon. Gentleman has told me, in answer to Questions, we are the second largest contributor and it looks as if the other nations of the world were so dejected by the attitude he took that they proceeded to throw him off the governing body. I hope that tonight he will be able to say that most of my suspicions are quite unfounded; that he believes in the F.A.O.; that he believes in the technical assistance and the statistical and economic services which it provides for its member nations, and that he is as determined as I am to wage the world war on want.
  10.58 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Gooch: I want to say a few words in support of what my right hon. Friend has said.

  345
  A number of Questions have been addressed to the Minister lately, with the object of securing clarification from him on what he said, and, what is more important still, on what he sought to convey by his recent speech at the F.A.O. Conference, in Rome. I almost regret that I did not accept the nomination to attend the conference this year, because if I had been there I could have formed my own opinion on that part of the Minister's speech which has given rise to Questions in this House.
  I regard the F.A.O. as one of the most valuable specialised organisations of the United Nations, and I have had the privilege of attending most of its conferences. I accept the Minister's declaration in the House on 24th November, in answer to Questions, when he said that we had been completely loyal to the organisation, and had taken and were taking a most active part in its operations.
  Part of the Minister's Rome speech, however, was most disturbing to those who want to see the F.A.O. further expand and to give more assistance to the under-developed countries. I regarded the right hon. Gentleman's speech at the conference as amounting to an ultimatum to the Director-General—in company with the United States, Australia and Canada—that the Director-General must spend less and not more.
  Of course, the Express Newspapers and the Evening Standard are delighted with the trend of events, notably the failure of Britain to retain its seat on the Council of the organisation. I understand that that was due to the ganging up of a number of other countries. I want to quote from the Evening Standard, because it is important that it should be realised that this Organisation can be kept flourishing and intact only if it is supported financially as well as morally. This is what the Evening Standard said:
  "The organisation has outlived any useful, ness it may ever have had. Its main task now is to maintain almost a thousand men and women in luxurious employment at the Rome headquarters … Britain has been thrown out of the F.A.O. Council. It should be duly grateful and walk out of the organisation for good."
  F.A.O., with which are associated 71 nations, has done and is continuing to do great work for hungry people in many parts of the world. In doing that
  346
  it is helping towards the establishment of permanent world peace. To attempt to belittle an organisation doing that kind of work is a crime against humanity, for the F.A.O. is seeking to raise nutrition and living standards in countries which are woefully behind in that regard.
  This country is spending millions of pounds on arms and defence; surely we can afford a few thousand pounds on an organisation busily engaged in making one of the "four freedoms"—the freedom from want—an accomplished fact. I am appalled that the advocates of economy were led by the United States and Britain. I want to support the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Orr, the first Director-General of F.A.O. when he said that war could be made inconceivable within twenty years if the nations spent a fraction of their war budgets to help under-developed countries to produce the food that they needed. I hope that we shall have from the right hon. Gentleman a clear explanation of his intention and purpose during his speech in Rome, and I hope that he will be able to allay the fears of my right hon. Friend and myself when he said at the Rome conference that we ought to give not more support to F.A.O., but less.
  11.3 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. D. Heathcoat Amory): I do not at all dissent from what the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) or the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch) have said about F.A.O. I agree that the F.A.O. is working in a very important and fruitful field of international co-operation. It is in practical fields like those of agriculture and food where most useful work can be done, and I have paid tribute—in the speech to which the right hon. Member has referred—to the valuable work that F.A.O. has already done in that field. A copy of my speech has been laid in the Library of the House.
  Having said that, I do not feel that I have any reason to be at all apologetic for what I said on the budget of the F.A.O. It is a fact that the United Kingdom is the second largest contributor to the funds of F.A.O., contributing 11 per cent., but it is our clear duty to satisfy ourselves that existing expenditure is used to the best advantage before we vote additional money. It is a mistake to

  347
  think that merely by voting additional money one necessarily makes the work of an organisation more effective.
  I should like to make it clear, however, that all along we have been taking the line that some additional funds were required. At the risk of boring the right hon. Gentleman, who has already read my speech, I want to repeat two or three paragraphs, because they summarise my view of this particular matter. I said in that speech:
  "We have given the most careful consideration to the admirably full and informative programme of work and budget. We have also carefully considered the comments made on the programme by the Co-ordinating Committee, the Committee on Financial Control, and at the 21st session of the Council. Our observations in detail, as a result of this review, will emerge in the discussions with the various technical panels. I am concerned here to state our broad general conclusion, and it is this. We are convinced that there is still sufficient need, and scope, for economies and savings in the programme as a whole to justify the view that the level of budget finally adopted should be substantially below the proposed 7 million dollars proposed. At the same time, we are persuaded that, if the Organisation is to continue to consolidate its successes and to tackle the problems which still face it, there must be some increase in the present level of its budget over and above the increase necessary to meet automatic increments. I confidently believe that within these limits a satisfactory figure can be found—a figure which will enable the Organisation not only to continue its work but to develop still further along the practical lines that I have indicated."
  The figures themselves are not of important size; indeed, the relatively small difference that a budget of 7 million dollars as opposed to one of 6·6 million dollars would make to the United Kingdom contribution is evidence that we were guided not by an attempt to save every pound we could but by a desire to ensure that efficiency in economy and expenditure should be applied to the whole budget. The differences are very small indeed. I have the figures, if the right hon. Gentleman wants them.
  We felt that a bigger proportion of the income should be spent on work in the field as against what one would call academic exercises and studies, to which no term can be set and which, in our opinion, promised no very practical results in the short term. The budget approved for next year was 6,600,000 dollars, and 70 per cent. of that—5 million dollars—is absorbed by headquarters expenditure, and only 1,600,000
  348
  dollars on work in the field. I know that, in addition to the regular budget of F.A.O., there is the Expanded Technical Assistance Programme, upon which we are particularly keen, and that amounts to 8 million dollars. Of that programme 82 per cent. represents work in the field.
  What the United Kingdom delegation has tried to do is to stress the importance, both under the regular programme and under the Expanded Technical Assistance Programme, of the greatest possible proportion of expenditure being spent upon practical projects, such as locust control, irrigation, plant protection, animal disease eradication, fish breeding, the improvement of the genetic stocks of seed, milk and nutrition. That was the line we were plugging the whole way through the Conference.
  I should like to tell the House, briefly, what happened. The Director-General asked for an increase of 1 million dollars—from 6 million to 7 million. During the first week of the Conference member countries expressed their views in a general way about the level of the budget, and the majority, including most of the undeveloped countries, were willing to accept the Director-General's suggestion of 7 million dollars. The United States started by explaining the difficulty it had in accepting more than 6,400,000, or possibly 6,500,000 dollars. The United Kingdom said that it thought that some such figure was the correct one, and suggested that the Technical Committee should look into the possibilities if the expenditure was fixed at about that figure.
  Between ten and fifteen nations favoured a budget lower than the Director-General had suggested, among them Australia, Canada, Now Zealand and South Africa, in addition to the United States—the bigger proportion of the "giver" countries. In the event, there was a vote upon what provisional figure should be decided upon in the early days of the Conference as a basis for further study. Twenty-four nations voted for a budget of 6,600.000 dollars for 1956 and 6,800,000 for 1957, and 23 nations voted against. So opinion was very evenly divided.
  Eventually, towards the end of the conference, the figures which I have just quoted were agreed upon, by general consent. So it would really seem that the United Kingdom's attitude was justified

  349
  by the results. I would emphasise that, all along, we agreed to the necessity for an increase in the budget, but our whole energies were devoted to trying to ensure that that budget was considered as related to a series of practical projects which could be fitted within the rising budget.
  The right hon. Gentleman commented upon the fact that the United Kingdom was not re-elected to the Executive Council. I should like to tell him, and the House, that I have made a very careful study of the circumstances, and that I have talked to several people about it, and I am satisfied that our attitude to the budget played a relatively small part in that event. I should like to give two reasons which, I think, were really instrumental in the occurrence of that result.
  First, the method of voting this year was changed from what it had been in the past. Vacancies had hitherto been filled seat by seat; that is, when a member retired, his seat was filled, and the Conference then passed on to decide about the next seat; but on this occasion, the seat was "detached," as it were, from the retiring member, and all seats were made available for each regional group and put up as separate lists. That change was made with the declared object of having a wider effect given to the principle of rotation, and I might say that a large number of countries wanted that change-round. That clearly, I think, worked against us.
  The second reason was that that at the Conference—and this was widely noted—more of a political attitude was adopted towards questions previously largely decided on technical grounds. That manifested itself by a certain impatience on the part of a number of the smaller and less well-developed countries with what they regarded, rightly or wrongly, as the preponderating influence which some of the larger countries exerted in the affairs
  350
  of F.A.O.—even although those larger countries were naturally much larger subscribers.
  I think that those are the two main reasons why the United Kingdom was not re-elected; but, after the election was over, there was something approaching consternation among most of the member countries with the result, which seemed to be deplored, and there was a wave of regret and apology to the United Kingdom which was almost embarrassing. Furthermore, at the end, the chief delegate, Sir Donald Vandepeer, was appointed chairman of an important ad hoc committee set up to improve the structure and functioning of the Council. Another delegate was elected to the Coordinating Committee, and others of the United Kingdom delegation were also appointed to different posts, so that, in the final result, there was certainly no apparent sign of a complete lack of confidence in the United Kingdom, as has been suggested in some quarters.
  So far as elections to the Council go, the United Kingdom has never claimed any prescriptive right to representation on the Executive Council. We regret that we were not re-elected, especially since we are, and have been, the second biggest contributor, and since we have always played a full and active part in the affairs of the F.A.O. We shall continue to exert ourselves, and continue to play an active part in F.A.O., in which we believe. We shall continue to do our best to ensure that the activities and efforts of this cooperative organisation are devoted with the greatest possible efficiency to the promotion of practical projects in a field in which, I agree, there is an enormous amount of useful work to be done.
  Adjourned accordingly at a quarter-past Eleven o'clock.

NATIONAL FINANCE
  Government Departments (Parkinson' s Law)
  Government Departments (Parkinson' s Law)
  Personal Incomes (Value)
  Personal Incomes (Value)
  Post-War Credits
  Post-War Credits
  Sterling Balances (Ceylon)
  Sterling Balances (Ceylon)
  OFFICES OF PROFIT
  OFFICES OF PROFIT
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  New Town Corporations
  New Town Corporations
  Caravan Sites
  Caravan Sites
  Cwmbran Development Corporation (Chairmanship)
  Cwmbran Development Corporation (Chairmanship)
  Water Supplies, Keighley and East Cowick
  Water Supplies, Keighley and East Cowick
  Compulsory Purchase (Compensation)
  Compulsory Purchase (Compensation)
  Urban District Council Chairmen (Mayoralty)
  Urban District Council Chairmen (Mayoralty)
  Rating Valuation
  Rating Valuation
  West Sussex Development Plan
  West Sussex Development Plan
  Yorkshire Dales National Park
  Yorkshire Dales National Park
  Reform
  Reform
HOUSING
  Newton Aycliffe (Population)
  Newton Aycliffe (Population)
  Building Tenders
  Building Tenders
  Compulsory Purchase Order, Newcastle-under-Lyme
  Compulsory Purchase Order, Newcastle-under-Lyme
  Differential Rent Schemes
  Differential Rent Schemes
  Subsidies
  Subsidies
  Flats, Bristol (Steel Supplies)
  Flats, Bristol (Steel Supplies)
  Council House Tenants (Security of Tenure)
  Council House Tenants (Security of Tenure)
  Unfit Houses (Returns)
  Unfit Houses (Returns)
  Local Authority Schemes
  Local Authority Schemes
  Loan Charges (Interest)
  Loan Charges (Interest)
  Private Dwellings (Letting)
  Private Dwellings (Letting)
  Rehousing (Joint Schemes)
  Rehousing (Joint Schemes)
EMPLOYMENT
  Shrewsbury
  Shrewsbury
NATIONAL SERVICE
  Liability (Commonwealth Service)
  Liability (Commonwealth Service)
SCOTLAND
  Railway Freight Charges
  Railway Freight Charges
  Royal Commission on Capital Punishment (Report)
  Royal Commission on Capital Punishment (Report)
  Glenrothes
  Glenrothes
  North-East Scotland (Industrial Development)
  North-East Scotland (Industrial Development)
  School Milk
  School Milk
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Westminster Hospital Site
  Westminster Hospital Site
  Her Late Majesty Queen Mary (Plaque)
  Her Late Majesty Queen Mary (Plaque)
BRITISH ARMY
  National Service Men (Marriage Allowance)
  National Service Men (Marriage Allowance)
  Helicopter Development
  Helicopter Development
  Mail Deliveries, Cyprus
  Mail Deliveries, Cyprus
  Masefield Intelligence Camp, Sussex (Waiters)
  Masefield Intelligence Camp, Sussex (Waiters)
  Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corps (Batmen)
  Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corps (Batmen)
  Casualty Announcements (Next-of-Kin)
  Casualty Announcements (Next-of-Kin)
  Reserve Pay
  Reserve Pay
  War Office (Staff)
  War Office (Staff)
  Expenditure, Cyprus
  Expenditure, Cyprus
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Iron Ore and Scrap Supplies
  Iron Ore and Scrap Supplies
  Horses (Import)
  Horses (Import)
  Pottery
  Pottery
  Newsprint Supplies
  Newsprint Supplies
  Monopolies Commission (References)
  Monopolies Commission (References)
FUEL AND POWER
  Coal-gas Poisoning (Home Accidents)
  Coal-gas Poisoning (Home Accidents)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Troops, Cyprus (Dependants' Pensions)
  Troops, Cyprus (Dependants' Pensions)
  Old-Age Pensioners
  Old-Age Pensioners
  HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS
  HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Cinemas (Sunday Charity Payments)
  Cinemas (Sunday Charity Payments)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Armed Forces (Pay Expenditure)
  Armed Forces (Pay Expenditure)
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Civil Servants and Expatriates (Pay and Allowances)
  Civil Servants and Expatriates (Pay and Allowances)
  Education Costs
  Education Costs
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Military Stores and Equipment (Sale)
  Military Stores and Equipment (Sale)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Concentrated Beer Experiments
  Concentrated Beer Experiments
  Cheap Cartridges Scheme
  Cheap Cartridges Scheme
  GOLD COAST (EDUCATION)
  GOLD COAST (EDUCATION)
  FALKLAND ISLAND DEPENDENCIES
  FALKLAND ISLAND DEPENDENCIES
  CEYLON (TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE)
  CEYLON (TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE)
TRANSPORT
  Transport Tribunal
  Transport Tribunal
ROADS
  St. Albans By-pass
  St. Albans By-pass
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR Oil the Woolsack.
Prayers

  TRADE WITH CHINA
  2.35 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that (1) in his last annual report to the shareholders the chairman of the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation said that the potentialities of British trade with China are as great as they have been for over a hundred years"; (2) that Sweden and Switzerland are executing contracts for China for turbine and steam turbo-generator sets, with boiler plant and electrical switch gear, and that French and Japanese and West German concerns have contracted to supply China with various kinds of iron and steel products, of which West Germany exported to China last year some 7,500 tons, and French concerns more recently some 10,000 tons, all of which items are on the China embargo list; and whether Her Majesty's Government will take steps to enable British businessmen to compete freely on an equal footing with Swedish, Swiss, French, Japanese and West German concerns who are trading with China in the aforementioned embargoed items.]
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware of the statement to which the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, refers in the first part of his Question. The chairman of the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation went on to say, however, that China would need to expand her exports if she was to obtain the foreign exchange necessary to purchase the industrial goods she requires. As to the second part of
  1092
  the Question, neither Sweden nor Switzerland is a member of the Consultative Group in Paris, but Her Majesty's Government do not consider that the nature and volume of exports from these countries to China are such as to prejudice the effectiveness of the controls maintained by members of the Group.
  The other three countries mentioned by the noble Viscount are members of the Consultative Group. The exports by Western Germany were made in fulfilment of commitments assumed before the Consultative Group had agreed upon a common list of controls. As for the contracts entered into by the French and the Japanese, I would refer the noble Viscount to the answer I gave him on October 26 when I told him that, although the arrangements made in the Consultative Group had achieved a remarkable uniformity, the controls were sufficiently flexible to take account of special circumstances and that occasionally, with the full knowledge of all the members, items under embargo had been exported to China by member countries, including the United Kingdom. As to the last part of the Question, I can assure the noble Viscount that British businessmen desiring to trade with China are on the same footing as those of France, Japan and Western Germany. I have already explained that Sweden and Switzerland are not members of the Consultative Group.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Lord for his very comprehensive Answer. May I ask him whether he is aware that it is common knowledge (this is to a large extent substantiated in my Question) and well known in business circles in all the major trading countries, that there is a growing absence of uniformity in the application of the China strategic controls by the Consultative Committee sitting in Paris? And if that is so—and I venture to think it is—is it not clear that, if the present circumstances are continued, British traders will be at an increasing disadvantage in the China market compared with some of their most important foreign competitors?
  LORD MANCROFT: If the disparity should grow to the proportions to which the noble Viscount fears, that might be so. But my information is—and I told him

  1093
  this a little while ago—that a quite remarkable degree of uniformity has in fact been achieved.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Yes, but it is not the uniformity that is really necessary. If I may say so, with the indulgence of the House—
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I am sorry to intervene, but the noble Viscount well knows that he must not now make a speech, although he may, of course, ask a supplementary question.
  2.39 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will say whether any conversations have taken place in recent times between the nations represented on "Cocom" having in view the rescinding of the 1951 U.N.O. resolution which imposed the China embargo solely in relation to the Korean war.]
  THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING): My Lords, no such conversations have taken place recently. However, the scope of the security controls on trade with China continues to be kept under review.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Marquess for his reply. May I ask him if he is able to inform the House whether Her Majesty's Government will initiate steps to bring this embargo to an end? Further, is he aware that so long as the embargo continues, China is driven more and more for the capital goods necessary to bring into being her industrialisation plans, to the Soviet bloc, to the disadvantage of British traders?
  THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I am aware that what the noble Viscount has said in the latter part of his interrogative remarks is an argument which is frequently used; and it is, of course, one which we have in mind. For the rest, I think it is necessary, when discussing this matter, to bear in mind that the resolution of the United Nations was not confined to the end of hostilities
  1094
  in Korea. What the last paragraph of the resolution said was that it
  "reaffirms that it continues to be the policy of the United Nations to bring about a cessation of hostilities in Korea and the achievement of United Nations' objectives in Korea by peaceful means."
  Though the first of those objectives has been achieved, the second, unfortunately, has not. That is one reason, and perhaps the main reason, why this does not seem to Her Majesty's Government to be a timely moment to take further steps in the matter.

SPEED LIMIT ON HEAVY GOODS VEHICLES
2.40 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any statement can be made with reference to the undertaking given by the Lord Chancellor that he and the Minister of Labour were going to confer with all interested parties on the question of raising the speed limit for heavy commercial vehicles.]
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, the problem to which the noble Earl refers in his Question has been under continuous examination, but it has not yet proved possible to find a practical solution. I regret, therefore, that I cannot make any statement on this matter at present.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his Answer, may I ask him whether I should be correct in assuming that the matter has not been lost sight of and that negotiations are still being continued? I raise the matter because of the wholesale disregard of the law by 94 per cent. of the personnel involved—that is the Government's official figure—which is going on at the present time.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, further to what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has just said, may I ask whether in fact the solution is not to raise the speed limit for these vehicles?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I can assure the noble Earl that the Government are not losing sight of this

1095
question. We should all, on all sides of the House, like to find a solution to it. I very much regret that there is nothing further that I can say now. I can assure the noble Earl that those who have this matter under observation are constantly seeking ways of bringing it to a satisfactory solution.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I hesitate to inflict myself on the House again, but here is a question, as the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I am sorry; I beg to ask a question. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor informed us in the debate that there was wholesale infraction of the law. Do I understand from the answer which the noble Earl has just given that the Government are not going to do anything further about it and, that we are, in fact, to be asked to continue to recognise wholesale breaking of the law?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I do not think that is a correct interpretation of what I said. We are seeking a solution and we hope to be able to find one, but it is no use proposing a solution which would be worse than the disease itself.

THERAPEUTIC SUBSTANCES BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order) on recommitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.

DIOCESAN EDUCATION COMMITTEES MEASURE, 1955
2.41 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLN THE LORD BISHOP OF LINCOLN rose to move to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Diocesan Education Committees Measure, 1955, be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent. The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, this Measure appears to be one of some complexity, but I do not think I need detain your Lordships long, as it is largely
1096
a consolidating Measure, and most of the provisions were accepted by this House when the original Diocesan Education Committees Measure came before your Lordships in 1943. That Measure provided for the setting up of a diocesan education committee in every diocese which should have a general oversight of religious education in the diocese and, in particular, should formulate the policy on church schools and assist those who manage the affairs of church schools in their negotiations with the Board of Education and other bodies. The diocese had the choice either of creating a new committee which would have to conform with the constitution set out in the Schedule to the Measure or it could request the Board of Education to make an order designating an existing body as the committee, in which case it did not need to conform to the Schedule.
Difficulties arose in practice, however, partly through there being no provision for the modification of the constitution of a committee. An amending Measure was therefore passed in 1951. But it has been found that it did not go quite far enough, and some difficulties still remain. The amending Measure permits the making of an Order substituting a new body for an existing one, but does not permit amending Orders. This is particularly unfortunate where the committee is incorporated, as it means that there has to be a new body and the expense of a fresh incorporation for every alteration of the constitution, however slight. Doubts have also arisen over the exact interpretation of the provisions of the 1951 Measure, and it has been found that orders have been made of uncertain validity. Therefore, it was felt desirable to make the position clear beyond all doubt for the future and also to validate anything that may have been done improperly though in good faith in the past.
Rather than prepare a further amending Measure, it was decided to take the opportunity of consolidating the two existing Measures. The only section which is to be left un-repealed is Section 3 of the 1943 Measure, which deals with certain matters relating to war damage, which are only indirectly connected with the constitution of the diocesan education committees. In any case, the section will shortly be spent and could them be cleared up in the course of Statute Law

1097
revision. Except for Clauses 1 and 4, the Measure re-enacts existing provisions, with a few Amendments which are little more than drafting. Clause 1, amongst other matters, permits the Minister to make an amending order, if so requested by the Diocesan Conference with the consent of the Bishop. Clause 3 validates anything that may have been improperly done in the past. This Measure was prepared in close consultation at every stage with the Ministry of Education, as were the other two Measures. It passed through the Assembly without a division or any amendment of substance. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Diocesan Education Committees Measure, 1955, be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Bishop of Lincoln.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

COPYRIGHT BILL [H.L.]
2.46 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
Clause 12:
Copyright in sound recordings
(4) The acts restricted by the copyright in a sound recording are the following, whether a record embodying the recording is utilised directly or indirectly in doing them, that is to say,—

(a) making a record embodying the recording;

(b) causing the recording to be heard in public.

(6) For the purpose of this Act the making of a sound recording is the act of making the record in which the recording is first embodied, and the maker of a sound recording is the person who owns that record at the time when it is made:
Provided that, where the sounds embodied in that record consist of a performance of a work, the recording shall not be taken to
1098
be made in the United Kingdom, or in another country to which this section extends, unless, at the time of the performance, the performer, or more than one) each of the performers, is actually present and performing in the United Kingdom, or in that other country, as the case may be.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (4), to add to paragraph (b):
"Provided that a recording shall be deemed not to be heard in public if

(1) the object of the performance of the recording is to afford social amenities to residents in hotels, boarding houses or similar residential premises at which no charge is made for admission to the performance, or

(2) the performance is not made for profit other than profit to be devoted to charitable or religious purposes or purposes beneficial to the community."

The noble Lord said: We now come to a very important Amendment, some may think the most important Amendment in this long list, on the consideration of which your Lordship are now embarking for a third day. It is to do away as far as practicable with the performing right in the public performance of gramophone records which has been brought into existing legislation by what we think, and have argued from this side of the House, was a side wind when the 1911 Act was enacted. Twenty-two years afterwards it was found that that Act gave a performing right to a gramophone record manufacturer, when in point of fact it was always assumed—at least, it is said it was assumed—by Parliament, when it passed the 1911 Act, that the sole right which Parliament was conferring upon the gramophone record manufacturer was a copyright against copying and piracy.
I do not think it is necessary for me to reiterate all the arguments which have been used in your Lordships' House about the evil consequences—and I say "evil"; there have been evil consequences—of the establishment in the courts of this country in 1922 that there was this performing right. I remember arguing the matter before your Lordships' House when the Copyright Committee's Report was being considered. It was argued also in front of your Lordships When the Television Copyright Bill was before your Lordships' House, that ill-fated Bill—happily fated—because on the dissolution it had to go into the waste paper basket. On

1099
the Second Reading of this Bill it was argued with great force that this right was something which should be done away with. I do not think I need go into all those arguments again but can come briefly to the point I want to make.
This performing right was considered by the Copyright Committee when it considered the whole question of copyright. I am puzzled over this one point. If your Lordships have a copy of the Report in front of you, you will find on page 55, where the Copyright Committee deal with this matter, that they say at the end of paragraph 151:
"In effect, what we believe to be the case is that the stringency of the control, of which so many complaints have been made, owes its origin to no question directly related to copyright, but springs from the relations which exist between the gramophone companies and the Musicians' Union."
On page 54, in the middle of paragraph 150, it says this—and this was illustrated, because the whole evidence before the Copyright Committee condemned this performing right out of hand. All those who were commercially interested condemned it; all those who were interested, the National Council of Social Service and everybody else, condemned it; it had not a friend. That paragraph says:
"One of the witnesses expressed the view that the Societies could understand and appreciate the justification for the payment of performing right fees to composers but not the requirement to pay additional fees for playing the composer's music by means of gramophone records,"
And then, at the end of that paragraph, it states:
"The conclusion to which we have been irresistibly driven as a result of our consideration of this evidence is that the rights given have been enforced in an arbitrary and autocratic manner, with the minimum of consideration, and that whatever other changes may be required in connection with the copyright provisions contained in Section 19 of the Copyright Act, 1911, some way must be found of limiting, by Statute, the opportunities of exploitation flowing from the present interpretation of the term public performance in this connection."
If the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission had used that language in one of their Reports to-day, the Government would be seriously concerned to put their recommendations into force. But our complaint is that in spite of all that condemnation, the Government, in paragraph (i) of subsection (4) of this
1100
clause, seek to underpin it and write it into the Statutes in unmistakable language. I am puzzled over the Government's avowed intention to free this country from restrictive practices born of monopoly. I supported very strongly the noble and learned Viscount when he, before your Lordships, introduced a Motion commending the Government's White Paper on the Report of the Monopolies Commission.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): May I say to the noble Lord—it may help him—that I am in the same happy position to-day. I am going to accept the noble Lord's Amendment in principle, so that I am supporting him. It may save him a little time.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: You must let me pause for a moment to get my breath. Never have I had such a pleasant shock. If you are going to condemn this particular line in the Bill, who am I, prosecuting counsel, to go on pleading for its death? I must say that I am extremely grateful to the noble and learned Viscount; I cannot find language in which to express my gratitude.
May I now turn to the reasons for putting down this Amendment? I frankly —and I will admit this to your Lordships—would clear this performing right out of this Bill, in all its aspects, completely and utterly. But when I was considering this matter after the Second Reading, I was so worried that I discussed the point with gramophone record manufacturers. I thought perhaps they put up some justification for some restriction. I can say, in fairness, and I think I am not overstating it, that in my discussion with the gramophone record manufacturers they were frank enough to say that they thought this had gone on too long and too far. But they were anxious to have some control over gramophone records that were used for sheer commercial gain—the juke box playing monstrosity (that is the only expression to use for it) in amusement arcades, where somebody goes and puts a coin in a slot and out comes the latest jive record. I think I have the right expressions. There may also be a case where records are actually played, let us say, in the entr'acte in a theatre. There may also be a case where somebody may turn the technical excellence of the new methods of tape recording to commercial gain. I thought

1101
it only right to admit the argument that perhaps there was some justification.
My noble and learned Leader took upon himself the onerous task of being the Parliamentary draftsman in this case, and this is the wording he has used. We thought that in this Amendment we had covered everything we could, but I should like to make it clear that we are not tied to the particular wording. We hope the noble and learned Viscount will accent the spirit of the Amendment: that is to say, when records are played for amenity, in its widest sense, there should be no performing right, no charge made and no licence required; and when records are performed for profit, so long as the profit is for a charitable purpose, there should be no performing right and no licence required.
I expect the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, will be rather puzzled by the last few words, "purposes beneficial to the community." That is rather wide, but what we had in mind was something like the village cricket club who want to run a small dance in a village hall in order to buy a mower to mow the village cricket pitch. We did not think that that would fall into the category of either a charity or an amenity, but we thought it might fall within "purposes beneficial to the community." I say, frankly, that if these other things were not brought in, I would prefer to have performing rights wiped right out. I need not argue the case further. I hope that when we come to Clause 14 the noble and learned Viscount will say the same thing, because the same principle is enshrined there. However, that is sufficient for now. I am graceful to the noble and learned Viscount. No doubt he would wish to put what he has to say officially on the record, and to enable him to do so I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 23, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD FARINGDON: I do not happen to share the enthusiasm of my noble friends for this Amendment, and I wish to suggest briefly one or two points which I hope Her Majesty's Government will bear in mind when they produce their Amendment, which I gather is intended to have rather the same effect. In actual fact, I think that we have really fallen into the pit which has been digged by the
1102
legal opinion given to the meaning of the 1911 Act. But this performing right which has been given to the gramophone recording manufacturers—and I agree almost entirely with what my noble friends have said about it—is the only protection that many performers have. I would suggest to the Government that the correct way to deal with this matter would be to give, as is given in certain countries, a performing right to the performer.
Oddly enough, on Second Reading a particular person was mentioned in your Lordships' House. It is a curious fact that that particular person was also the victim—and "victim" is not too strong a word—of the kind of situation of which I am afraid. He had for many years been in the habit of fulfilling a satisfactorily lucrative engagement in the north of England, performing for an association of clubs. He had done this for a number of years and was extremely popular in that neighbourhood. One year the invitation did not arrive. He made inquiries and he discovered that some local person had offered—and the offer had been accepted —to give a gramophone record performance in which certain gramophone records of this particular performer were to be included. This occasion was one which, I suspect, would be either charitable, or, at any rate, beneficial to the community; certainly it would not be profit-making. But clearly an injustice would have been done in this case if the gramophone record manufacturers had not been able to make a claim. I suggest that the real justice in this matter would be to give a performing right to performers.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has stated with great frankness and clarity the reasons that have brought him and the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, to put forward this Amendment as a solution to this question. The noble and learned Earl said on December 1 that the Amendment represented
"by and large, subject to consideration with them, the length to which they "—
meaning the record manufacturers—
"are prepared to go."
I am not going back to what was said on Second Reading—it would not be profitable—because both noble Lords have explained why they take up this position to-day. With regard to what the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, has said, I can

1103
only remind him that, dangerous as is the position of those who interfere in a private fight, the danger to those who interfere in public peace-making is even more considerable. All I can promise him is that I will read carefully and consider what he has said.
Her Majesty's Government have always regarded this as a practical issue to be settled in a practical manner. Rightly or wrongly, by accident or by design, the right was given in the Act of 1911, and has been acted upon for the last twenty or thirty years, during which time interests have grown up. I agree that sometimes, as the Report of the Copyright Committee pointed out, the right has been exercised in an arbitrary manner, and it was with the eminently practical purpose of keeping the exercise of the right in bounds and under review that the Committee recommended the establishment of the tribunal, without otherwise affecting the interests which had grown up since 1911 or since the decision of which we have heard so much. That was the line Her Majesty's Government adopted in the Bill. But it now appears that the gramophone industry are willing to accept a curtailment of the rights they have hitherto enjoyed, and the noble Lord and the noble and learned Earl wish us to agree. This acceptance of a curtailed right by the industry shifts the balance of the argument, and Her Majesty's Government are quite prepared to accept the Amendment, in principle, subject to reconsideration of the drafting, to which I will come in a moment. There is a French proverb which warns one against being more Royalist than the King, and if I may adopt that, it would be wrong, I think, for Her Majesty's Government to be more phonographic than H.M.V. Also, when I find the lion of the Labour Party lying down with the lamb of the record manufacturers, then, indeed, I can only give thanks for the diversity of human creatures and ask the Committee to pass on to the next Amendment.
I would say a word or two about the drafting of the Amendment. The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, explained to us that he had drafted this Amendment in haste, while others were talking. I think your Lordships will agree that the two points to which I should like to give further consideration are reasonable points and do not affect the spirit
1104
of the Amendment. As I understand the object of paragraph (a), it is to deal with the situation where only residents of the hotel are present, and not a case when the big room in the hotel is used for a public performance. I should like to have a look at that, and before an Amendment is finally put down I will show it either to the noble and learned Earl or to someone whom he appoints.
On the second point, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has already drawn attention to a phrase which obviously requires looking at, and that is, "purposes beneficial to the community." I remind the noble and learned Earl of the many dozens of cases on the border line of charitable purposes at which he and I have had to look when we were safeguarding the revenues of the Crown in the courts. I should like to have a further look at that phrase to see whether it is the best or whether we can find something more exact. I do not think that that affects what I have said —that I am accepting the principle of the Amendment—and I have pleasure in informing your Lordships of that fact.
EARL JOWITT: I should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount very much, and just say a word or two about what he has said. My own position about this matter is quite plain—I should not have any performing right at all. I think it got into the old Act by an error, and I think the right thing to do would have been to take it out. But I had the sense to realise that in view of the Government decision, there was no chance of their accepting that point of view. That being so, I made friends with the Mammon of unrighteousness and got the gramophone people to come round to see me. We hammered out this wording as the sort of provision to which they would agree, and it is on that basis that I put it forward. As to the drafting, I am only too glad that the Lord Chancellor should look at it. I am very conscious of its imperfections, and in the circumstances they are not to be wondered at: it is not an easy provision to draft. If there is a home where old ladies have a performance of this sort, sometimes their relatives would like to go down and be with them. Aunt Jane, if she is in a home, might say, "Come along and listen to our gramophone." You go, not because you want to listen

1105
to the gramophone, but because you want to please Aunt Jane. It would be a pity if that were to turn it into a public performance. I have little doubt that, with the skill and assistance available to the Lord Chancellor, he will be able to draft wording which is acceptable. I apologise to all noble Lord; who think that I have gone too far, but I have done what I believe to be practical; if I had insisted on my view to the full, I might have got nothing.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I am obliged to my noble Leader and my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth for the efforts they have made to come to some agreement on a very difficult question. I am also grateful to the Lord Chancellor for the spirit in which he has met the matter, but I have one or two things to say at which the Lord Chancellor, with his knowledge of my associations of the past forty years, will not be surprised. I have been interested in this matter ever since the passing of the 1911 Act, and even more interested since the astounding decision in the High Court of Justice in 1933. To me, it is an extraordinary thing that Her Majesty's Government, after a period of twenty-two years of non-claim by the gramophone records companies to any royalty of this sort, should have thought fit, by a side wind, to embody the right as a justifiable part of the permanent legislation of the land.
My experience in forty years' dealing with the gramophone companies has not been very encouraging. In the movement with which I have been proud to associate myself for forty years, we have for long years been the subject of a permanent boycott. Your Lordships and my noble and learned Leader must excuse me if I regard this settlement "out of court," as it were, with a little reserve. It is only right that I should warn the Lord Chancellor that, when he tables his actual ipsissima verba of his Amendment to the Bill, I shall study them with considerable anxiety, some pre-vision, as it were, to see exactly how it will work.
What are the facts upon which I base myself? I base myself on the fact that until 1933–34 no such royalty was ever contemplated. Is that not a most extraordinary thing from such a great wealth of power accumulated in E.M.I. and Decca, and one or two other minor companies? Is it surprising that those who
1106
were subject to a deliberate boycott of supply from 1933–34 onwards, as in the case of my movement, should wonder exactly where we are going? I am looking at the matter from the point of view of the possible effect upon numerous bodies in which the Labour movement is profoundly interested—and here I speak for Labour—if the Bill had remained in its original state, and I am thankful to the Lord Chancellor that it is not going to do so. It has been my joy on many occasions, not only in my own former constituency but in many others, to engage in the great local joys of fellowship in the working men's clubs. Until 1934 they had no difficulty; but they have had ever since. It has been my joy for forty years to partake in the educational work of the Co-operative Movement, which now comprises something like 11½ million members, and which is subject to-day to a boycott of supply. All this from gramophone record companies who have been making this approach to get some kind of a settlement which will allow them to retain their right to something which was never intended by the 1911 Act. I am grateful to my noble and learned Leader for pointing that out.
When the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor comes to draft his Amendment to meet what seems to me to be fundamental principle which he has accepted, he must take particular note of the words
"the performance is not made for profit other than profit to he devoted to charitable or religious purposes or purposes beneficial to the community."
In view of my past forty years' experience in this matter, I shall want not only a microscope but double glasses as well to study his Amendment. I thought it was right at this stage to tell the Lord Chancellor in advance that, no matter how grateful I am to my noble and learned Leader and to my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth for having made an approach with the gramophone companies, there are million members of a great movement in this country who will watch with the greatest possible interest the development of this matter. How we shall judge the Amendments put down to Clause 17, and how we shall handle the matter upon the Report stage, will depend largely on the wording of the Lord Chancellor's Amendment.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before I withdraw this Amendment, I should like to say one word in connection with what my noble friend Lord Faringdon has said. I admit quite frankly that there is a strong case for the protection of the legitimate rights of performers. I should have thought that my industrial record in the world of labour conciliation would make me immune from any grounds of suspicion about that, but at the present time, as the noble and learned Viscount knows, the Copyright Bureau and the International Labour Office at Geneva are considering the first draft of a convention to take care of the proper rights of performers. There is this thing called technological unemployment which, one day, will have to be seriously considered by Her Majesty's Government on an international plane. I do not intend to say anything about it this afternoon, except that it has nothing to do with copyright. That was the very basis of the argument from the word "go." It has nothing whatever to do with it, as my noble and learned Leader said on Second Reading. For all the things it has to do with labour relations on a very high level, it has nothing to do with copyright. That is why I wanted to see it out of this Bill. I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 30, after ("public") insert ("in the United Kingdom.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment also is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 32, leave out from ("indicating") to end of line 35 and insert ("the year in which the recording was first published:").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment is consequential; it is one of the same group. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 41, after ("public") insert ("in the United Kingdom.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL JOWITT EARL JOWITT had given notice of an Amendment relating to a local education authority's rights. The noble and learned Earl said: Without prejudicing my noble friend Lord Burden, I do not propose to move this Amendment to-day, since I understand that in the purview of our previous discussion this whole question is under examination.
3.27 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL LORD GREENHILL moved, after subsection (5) to insert:
"(6) The copyright in a sound recording is not infringed by a person who does any of those acts in relation to a sound recording or part of a sound recording if those acts are done for the purposes of teaching in establishments maintained or assisted by a local education authority within the meaning of the Education Act, 1944, or by the Minister of Education."
The noble Lord said: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Burden, I have been asked to move this Amendment. Although this is a United Kingdom Bill, the reference here is to the Minister of Education only, and presumably therefore it does not include the Scottish Education Act and the Secretary of State for Scotland, as Minister for Education in Scotland. Therefore, while I bear in mind what my noble and learned Leader has just said, I should like the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, to see whether any consideration that he is giving to this clause also includes a reference to the Scottish position. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 41, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Greenhill.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will certainly take into account what the noble Lord has said. Noble Lords in all parts of the Committee will understand, in accordance with what was said by the noble and learned Earl, that the educational Amendments, in all Parts of the Bill, will be taken into account in the consideration and the discussions which we are having with the Education Ministries in regard to the whole position.
LORD GREENHILL: May I trouble the noble and learned Viscount to say

1109
one thing more? This clause apparently deals only with education authorities. There are in England, and there is certainly also one in Scotland, residential colleges for adults which are not part and parcel of the ordinary educational schemes. Would he also bear that in mind?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With the greatest pleasure.
LORD GREENHILL: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is also a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 42, leave out from ("Act") to end of line 9 on page 17 and insert ("a sound recording shall be taken to be made at the time when the first record embodying the recording is produced, and the maker of a sound recording is the person who owns that record at the time when the recording is made.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved to omit the proviso to subsection (6). The noble Lord said: I am in this difficulty: I can either make my remarks now or make them on the Question, That the clause stand part of the Bill. The Amendment which the noble and learned Viscount has moved rules out this one, but once again the whole question of the battle we fought on the original Amendment at the opening of the consideration of this clause, is raised. I beg the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor to reconsider the whole question of copyright against the copying and pirating of gramophone records. I will not reiterate all my arguments. I do not want to fight the battle we fought on Amendment No. 53. I do not want to reopen the argument; it would serve no useful purpose. May I, however, have an assurance from the noble and learned Viscount that in between now and the next stage of this Bill he will give the matter which we raised serious consideration?
A week-end has elapsed since we dealt with the first half of this clause. I have had an opportunity of reading carefully what the Lord Chancellor said in response to my argument upon the
1110
question of the copyright of American records in this country, and, if I may say so with great respect, I feel that the noble and learned Viscount has left a serious gap wide open that will be against the interests of British manufacturers. I am sure that that is the last thing he wishes to do. He really must look once again at this question of the transference from the public to the private domain of anything that eventually comes under copyright. I shall not argue the point again. All I want is an assurance from the noble and learned Viscount that he will give this matter serious consideration and perhaps discuss it with those people who are far better qualified than I to put forward the technicalities, which I have in mind. If the noble and learned Viscount wishes to reply to me, I will move my Amendment and then withdraw it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 3, leave out from beginning to end of line 9.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I agree with the noble Lord that the discussion that we had raised a difficult problem, with difficulties on both sides. I know he appreciated mine and I certainly appreciated his. I have no hesitation in giving the assurance that this matter will be looked into carefully before the next stage of the Bill.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for that assurance, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This also is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 13, at end insert ("and 'publication', in relation to a sound recording, means the issue to the public of records embodying the recording or any part thereof "). —(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH had given notice of his intention to move to insert the folic wing subsection:
"(8) For the purposes of this Act the publication of a sound recording is the issue to the public of records embodying that recording by or with the licence of the maker of the recording."
The noble Lord said: In view of the assurance of the noble and learned Viscount, I do not move this Amendment.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 13:
Copyright in cinematograph films
13.—(1) Copyright shall subsist, subject to the provisions of this Act, in every cinematograph film of which the maker was a qualified person for the whole or a substantial part of the period during which the film was made.
(3) Copyright subsisting in a cinematograph film by virtue of this section shall continue to subsist until the end of the period of twenty-five years from the end of the calendar year which—

(a) in the case of a film which is registrable under Part III of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1938, includes the date on which the film is registered thereunder, or

(b) in any other case, includes the date on which the film is first published,

and shall then expire:
(4) Subject to the provisions of this Act, the maker of a cinematograph film shall be entitled to any copyright subsisting in the film by virtue of this section:
Provided that, in the case of a cinematograph film which is made in pursuance of a contract between the maker of the film and another person, for the purpose of advertising the latter person's goods or otherwise for the purposes of his trade or business, the latter person shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be entitled to any copyright subsisting in the film by virtue of this section.
(6) Where by virtue of this section copyright has subsisted in a cinematograph film, the doing, after that copyright has expired, of any such act as is mentioned in paragraph (b) of the last preceding subsection shall not constitute an infringement of any copyright subsisting by virtue of Part I of this Act in any literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work.
3.31 p.m.
LORD ARCHIBALD LORD ARCHIBALD moved, in subsection (1), after "film" where that word first occurs, to insert "which is unpublished and". The noble Lord said: I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak to Amendments Nos. 68, 69 and 71 together. They are of a somewhat technical nature but the three of them constitute, so to speak, a single Amendment as far as their purpose is concerned. At this stage, I will not deal with one point in Amendment 71, which "has reference to the fifty years and is a separate issue. The point involved here is
1112
that under the Cinematograph Films Act, 1938, certain films are not registrable —namely, newsreels, commercial advertising films and certified films of an educational nature for international use. In addition, there is the whole range of sustandard films—films on smaller film than the standard 35 mm, which are not registrable under that Act. So that all the films in that category would not come under subsection (3) (a). Then there are other films which are never shown to the public, nor offered for hire or for sale; these films would not come within the definition of "published" as given in the later clause.
The simple intention of these three Amendments is to declare that copyright subsists in the film as soon as the film is made—that the period of copyright should date from certain happenings. I am bound to admit that the exact wording of the Amendments does not entirely clear up one of the points at which I was aiming—namely, the provision of a period of copyright for a film of perhaps a scientific or educational nature which is never, in fact, shown to the public but is shown only privately and is made only for showing to classes and for similar non-public occasions. As I say, this is a technical point; there is no principle involved in it, and I do not think there will be any dispute. I am sure that the noble and learned Viscount will appreciate the purpose of the Amendment and, without being in any way committed to the wording, I have no doubt that he will, as he has done so often in regard to this Bill, give an undertaking to look at it, in which case my purpose will have been served. I therefore beg to move Amendment No. 68.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 15, after ("film") insert ("which is unpublished and").—(Lord Archibald.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord, Lord Archibald, has moved this Amendment in so conciliatory a fashion that I am sorry to say that it does raise a difficulty. I should like to explain it to him, and if he can give me an answer now I shall be glad. It is not that I am trying in any way to argue against what he has said on his first point. On the second point, however, I should like to put another aspect to him. The first point is simply a question of the

1113
Convention. The noble Lord's Amendment, Amendment No. 69, contains these words:
"copyright shall subsist in the film … if, but only if, the first publication of the film took place in the United Kingdom or in another country to which this section extends."
My difficulty is that acceptance of these Amendments as they stand would mean that we should not be honouring our obligations under the Universal Copyright Convention. Films are specifically protected by that Convention, by Article I, and the subsistence of copyright is determined on publication not only by reference to the place of first publication but also by reference to the nationality of the maker—that is Article II (1). We must therefore protect a Convention country's film, even if it is first published outside Convention territory. These Amendment; would make that impossible. That is my difficulty. As I say, if the noble Lord could consider it in the meantime, to see whether he can find any way out, I shall be pleased to consider his suggestion. But as I have said (and the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, was inclined to agree), we are obliged to adhere to the requirements of the Convention.
May I turn to Amendment No. 71 for a moment—that is, the Amendment to insert a new proviso to subsection (3), and an Amendment which the noble Lord would like discussed at the present time? 'There the position again raises certain difficulties because, taken as it stands, it would make merely for confusion. We have already provided dates from which time begins to run and the proposed Amendment would provide other and different dates. It is the fact that in the case of a film registrable under the Cinematograph Films Acts the date of registration provides what users want to know, a definite, ascertainable date. The Amendment provides three possible dates, some of which are not readily ascertainable. I see some difficulty in realising how a would-be user is to know when the first trade showing of a film was given. By searching the technical press of 25 or 50 years earlier he might find out. Is it easy for him to find out when it was first broadcast? Again, I suggest it is not. One is put in the difficulty of finding a definite, ascertainable date to adopt. I should like the noble Lord again to consider my difficulties in that regard, and if he would care to write to me in the mean-
1114
time, between the stages, I will consider anything he has to say, but at the moment it is difficult for me to go further. It is in a rather different position from the first point, where I think there is a real Convention difficulty. I do not think I can advise the Committee to accept the Amendments at the moment.
LORD ARCHIBALD: I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for his offer to consider any further points which I may be able to put to him between now and the next stage. With regard to the first point, naturally I fully accept that if the form of my Amendment creates a Convention difficulty, then that is something seriously to be considered, because, as has already been said from these Benches, we are very desirous of avoiding anything which would create difficulties in the acceptance of the two Conventions. I will naturally look again to see whether I can find a form of words which will not raise that particular point. I agree that there would be difficulty, in that we should have dates which are not readily ascertainable. I do not feel that the noble and learned Viscount has quite met my point that the present wording leaves out from copyright certain classes of films. Though I do not want to press that point unduly at the moment, I will include the argument on that point in such further representations I may make to the noble and learned Viscount before the next stage. It is a technical point not easy of discussion, even on Committee stage, and I shall be quite happy to deal with it between now and the next stage of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.42 p.m.
LORD ARCHIBALD LORD ARCHIBALD moved, in subsection (3), to substitute "fifty" for "twenty-five" [years]. The noble Lord said: Your Lordships will appreciate that this is not a technical Amendment but one which I regard as of considerable substance. While I do not propose to repeat to the Committee the arguments used during the Second Reading debate, I would say that since I put down the Amendment and have had time to think upon it I have been somewhat surprised at my own moderation. I feel that I should have put down a considerably longer period than fifty years, for this reason: the normal period of copyright in artistic, literary and musical works is

1115
the life of the author and fifty years thereafter. Copyright of films usually will vest in a company and, as a company does not die, that formula would hardly be appropriate. Some period might, however, have been taken as representing the life of the author—say twenty-five years—and fifty years added to it, thus making the period of film copyright seventy-five years. That would have been no more than justice.
I believe that the Copyright Committee (on whose recommendations Her Majesty's Government no doubt base their case for a twenty-five years' period in the Bill) were entirely wrong on this particular issue. I have a suspicion that the members of that Committee were not exactly what might be called film "fans." They were not greatly interested in, nor particularly sympathetic towards, films. As they say in their Report, they link films with gramophone records as being more in the nature of mechanical or industrial productions. For the reasons which I gave on Second Reading, I believe that the film is a new artistic creation entitled to the same kind of copyright protection, and as nearly as possible the same length of copyright protection, as any other artistic creation. I believe that would be more adequately represented by a seventy-five years' period, but I put down fifty years, which I think is reasonable. I believe that period would satisfy all the main purposes of the film makers, including those responsible for the classics of the film producers' art.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Would the noble Lord help me? This is a merely personal question. As the noble Lord may know, I am intensely interested in films. What sort of "classic" has he in mind?
LORD ARCHIBALD: To take films made in this country since the end of the war, those which come most readily to mind are Henry V and Hamlet; but there are numerous others, like Great Expectations. Though I have not come provided with a list of examples, I shall be happy to prepare such a list and send it to the noble and learned Viscount. The fact that one can name three or four films which in my opinion not only will be shown to film societies and educational institutions but will be revived for public showing the specialised cinemas which
1116
cater for them not merely twenty-five, but thirty-five or even forty-five years from the date they were made—in fact, as long as it is technically possible for them to be shown on such machinery as may come into operation in cinemas in fifty years' time—I believe supports my view. Though it is perfectly true that, for the bulk of films, a twenty-five years' period would be adequate, there are exceptional films, as there are exceptional books and music, for which a longer period of copyright is desirable and necessary, and to which, I feel the film is entitled. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 25, leave out ("twenty-five") and insert ("fifty").—(Lord Archibald.)
LORD CONESFORD: I hope Her Majesty's Government will find it possible to meet, at any rate in part, the Amendment which has just been moved. By this clause the Government are, I believe, doing two very valuable things: they are giving a copyright in a film as such and giving a definite date from which that copyright runs. If both those things are provided, not very much difficulty would be caused by giving a rather longer term than twenty-five years. I admit that there may be contrary arguments which I have not heard, but I have sympathy with the request put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, and with some of the reasons which he gave. I know that my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is knowledgeable about films. In his intervention he asked for examples of "classic" films. The noble Lord, Lord Archibald, has given examples of British films, but I would give as examples some French films of the great period, like Rene Clair's Sous les Toits de Paris, Le Quartorze Juillet and Le Million. Such films may well be considered classics for longer than twenty-five years from the date when they were made. I do not know what would be the application of the clause to these films; but perhaps the example would be germane. Considering such classic films as have been given as examples, I would support the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, in his plea.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I would press Her Majesty's Government on this point. I consider that my noble friend Lord Archibald has made out an unanswerable case. Though I would agree that there is the consideration

1117
argued by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, on Second Reading, yet that is outweighed by the consideration that otherwise the fundamental rights of ancillary copyright holders are jeopardised. As I read the intention of Her Majesty's Government in this Bill, though I may be wrong, at the end of twenty-five years the ancillary rights, or composer's rights, fall. I am looking carefully at subsection (6) from the composer's point of view. My interpretation may be wrong, but if it is, then my mind will be a little easier. Subsection (6) says:
"Where by virtue of this section copyright has subsisted in a cinematograph film, the doing, after that copyright has expired, of any such act as is mentioned in paragraph (b) of the last preceding subsection shall not constitute an infringement of any copyright subsisting by virtue of Part I of this Act in any literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work."
I read that as meaning that these copyrights in this film fall when the twenty-five year period has expired. What I think we must realise is that we are sitting here legislating for the next fifty years. I do not think there will be another Copyright Bill before four Lordships' House for as long a period as that between 1911 and 1956. I am sure that if Lord Man-croft is still alive and in your Lordships' House in fifty years' time, he will devoutly hope that there never will be one.
LORD MANCROFT: Hear, hear!
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: It is not so much a matter of films that have been produced but of films which might be produced in the future. I, for one, have no fear regarding the progress of the cinema and of the film. But I cannot see what the advantage is of not lining up the film copyright with the established period of copyright of the lifetime of the author or composer and fifty years after. Further, may I draw the attention of the noble and learned Viscount to this pint? If my interpretation of subsection (6) is correct, then this is a flagrant breach of the Brussels Convention which we have all been—and no one more than the noble and learned Viscount—at pains to regard as sacrosanct. If the noble and learned Viscount will look at Article VII of the Brussels Convention he will see that Section 1 says:
1118
"The term of protection granted by this Convention shall be the life of the author and fifty years after his death."
Let us now go to Section 3 of Article VII which says:
"In the case of cinematographic and photographic works, as well as works produced by a process analogous to cinematography or photography, and in the case of works of applied art, the term of protection shall be governed by the law of the country where protection is claimed, but shall not exceed the term fixed in the country of origin of the works."
That gives the Government a slight let out. But when we come to Article XIV (1) we find this:
"Authors of literary, scientific or artistic work shall have the exclusive right of authorising: (i) the cinematographic adaptation and reproduction of these works, and the distribution of the works thus adapted or reproduced; (ii) the public presentation and performance of the works thus adapted or reproduced."
and then Article XIV (1) states:
"Without prejudice to the rights of the author of the work adapted or reproduced, a cinematograph work shall be protected as an original work."
Note "without prejudice." If you seek to do anything under this clause to prejudice in any way the fifty-year copyright of a composer, you are debarred from so doing by the Brussels Convention. I cannot think it is really worth while, and I submit that on practical grounds, of which we have had some examples from the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, or on other grounds which have been put forward, we should leave the thing as it is, and revert to fifty years. We should not reduce it to twenty-five years.
3.56 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: I do not think that this is a matter for which I am prepared to go to the stake— I think there is a great deal to be said on both sides. Let me remind the Committee what was in the minds of the Copyright Committee when they made this admittedly slightly arbitrary distinction between the two things. They said: "Here is a film which is more like a mechanical contrivance, such as a gramophone record, than a composition or a picture. Therefore, the logical thing to do is to apply the twenty-five years period as for mechanical contrivances." Further, they argued that it is a commercial undertaking and that after twenty-five years the, makers of the film may be expected to have recouped themselves in the matter of profits. I think

1119
that they had in the background another consideration—namely, that if a film is of sufficient importance or artistic merit to be worth re-showing after twenty-five years, then, in the interests of the public, the public showing of the film ought not to be restricted.
It is certainly possible to argue—and it has been argued by the noble Lords, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, Lord Archibald and Lord Conesford—that owing to the progress which films have made a film may, indeed, be a major work of art—that does not apply, of course, to every film. Several noble Lords have spoken about classical films which they would like to see again if they are alive in twenty-five or fifty years time. But the vast majority of films are such that we should never wish to see them again. I think the point is made not by the revival recently of films such as The Birth of a Nation or the Réné, Claire masterpieces, but by a reissue of the classical Greta Garbo film, Lady of the Camellias, I think we were all astonished to find how well that film wore after twenty years and how it showed that Miss Greta Garbo in her day could pretty well "act every actress of the present day off the screen."
That is the type of film which the noble Lord may have in mind, and I think it may be necessary to protect that type of film. Whether twenty-five years or fifty years is the proper period is a debatable point. I hoped for one moment that the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, with his interesting turn of mind, was going to suggest a compromise of 33⅓ years or something like that. He feels strongly that it is necessary to have a longer period to protect these classical films and to make certain that they are not denied to the public, and that the period should be equated to the period specified with regard to literary or artistic compositions. I am not prepared to go to the stake for it. I should like to help the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, over two points which are no longer in issue if we accept that fifty years is right. I think he is wrong in his interpretation of subsection (6). That provides that after the twenty-five years period has expired the exhibition of the film shall not constitute an infringement of any copyright in the form of authors' rights, in the works which are comprised in the film. These subsist for
1120
fifty years after the death of the composer or author, whichever it may be.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth also argued Convention points. What he was saying was that the Bill as drafted might be contrary to the Berne Convention. Article 7 (3) provides that
"In the case of cinematographic and photographic works as well as works produced by a process analogous to cinematography or photography, and in the case of works of applied art, the term of protection shall be governed by the law of the country where protection is claimed …"
So far as the author is concerned, he has the exclusive right, given by Article 14, of authorising the adaptation of his work for cinema performance. Obviously, this right is exerciseable only for the copyright life of the film, otherwise the words in subsection (3) would not have much meaning. But that point and subsection (1) are not very material now. If your Lordships think that fifty years is going to be in the better interests of the film-going public, which certainly includes myself, and in the interests of higher works of art, which the films certainly now provide, I shall not ask your Lordships to force a decision on this matter.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I thank the noble Lord for his reply to my point. If he accepts my noble friend's Amendment, which I take it he has done, my argument falls to the ground, because subsection (6) would be out of the Bill. I expect that my noble friend Lord Archibald will be delighted at the result.
LORD ARCHIBALD: I must thank the noble Lord most warmly for his reception of my Amendment. I understand that he is going to advise the Committee to accept it. I am glad that he has not listened to the voice of the compromiser but has decided that, if he is to go part of the way, he may as well go the whole way. I think this will be warmly welcomed by the more important film-makers for whom I am pleading in this matter. I think that time will show that it has been a wise decision.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ARCHIBALD: I beg to move this Amendment, which is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 37, leave out ("twenty-five") and insert ("fifty").—(Lord Archibald.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ARCHIBALD LORD ARCHIBALD moved, in the proviso to subsection (4), after "goods" to insert, "or services." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is a small and technical one. Advertising films are made in order to advertise both goods and services, and I propose the amendment for the sake of clarity. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 2, after ("goods").insert ("or services").—(Lord Archibald.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am not sure that this Amendment is necessary, but in order to show the good feeling that exists to-day I will accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ARCHIBALD: This is a complicated point which I hope I shall be able to make clear. If the noble and learned Viscount advises me that I am worrying unduly, I shall be happy to take his advice on the matter. The point at issue is that there are cases where there is a contract between the maker of a film and a company whose business it is to provide finance for the making of films. The clause as it stands reads:
"… made in pursuance of a contract between the maker of the film and another person … for the purposes of his trade or business,"
If his trade or business is the financing of films, it would appear that in that case the copyright would go not to the maker of the film but to the person providing the finance for it. I know that that is not the intention of the clause. It may be that I am unduly alarmist in envisaging that that possibility may arise out of it, but I should be grateful if the point were looked at. I beg to move.
Amendment moved——
Page 18, line 2, leave out ("purposes") and insert ("improvement or the more efficient conduct").—(Lord Archibald.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the noble Lord has a point here, and our words may be rather wide. Again I hope he will allow me time to consider the best form of words, and on my undertaking to do that perhaps he will not press his form of words at the moment.
LORD ARCHIBALD: I thank the noble and learned Viscount and I am happy in his reply. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD ARCHIBALD: This Amendment will bring the clause in line with other provisions of the Bill. If parties wish to provide an alternative arrangement about who shall have copyright, they should be left to do so. It is a small point, which I have no doubt the noble and learned Viscount will consider with the others. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 4, after ("Act") insert ("and in the absence of agreement to the contrary,").—(Lord, Archibald.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not think that this Amendment is necessary to carry out the noble Lord's purpose, but again I shall be happy to look at it, if he will withdraw his Amendment at the present time. If we do not put down an Amendment, I will communicate with the noble Lord and explain why.
LORD ARCHIBALD: I thank the noble and learned Viscount and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, tell the Committee how he proposes to deal with this subsection now that he has accepted my noble friend's Amendment to extend the period of copyright of a film to fifty years? This Amendment has no real importance now. If the noble Lord wants to leave subsection (6) in, I have no objection, but I should have thought it would be better out. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 13, leave out subsection (6).—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I do not know what the merits or demerits of subsection (6) may be, but I think the noble Lord is entirely mistaken in thinking that it has no import just because the period of copyright of a film has been altered from twenty-five to fifty years. Clearly, the period of copyright as ascertained in the light of the Amendment and the period of copyright under subsection (6) are not co-terminous and I think he would be labouring under a delusion if he thought the subsection as it stands is otiose if interpreted in the light of the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Archibald.
LORD ARCHIBALD: I entirely agree with the noble Viscount. When we come to my next Amendment, I shall not move

1123
it. Subsection (6) cannot be taken by itself, and perhaps I should have put down an Amendment to subsection (5), because there are some words there which are ambiguous. Does "making a copy of the film" mean making a print of the film or does it mean making an imitation of the film? Obviously the meaning given to these words affects the purpose of subsection (6). I imagine that the intention is that it should mean making an imitation of a film, not making a copy or print for the purpose of showing. On the interpretation of this point depends whether the provision of paragraph (b) is operative or not. A film cannot be shown in public after the expiry of copyright unless it is possible to make a print, and if it were held that the making of a copy of a film was the same thing as making a print, which I do not think is so, then we might be in difficulties.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I might deal with the point which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has raised, I think he will find that it requires further examination. The effect of the Amendment would be that after the period of copyright in the film had expired, all the constituent copyrights in the film—that of the author of the book, the scriptwriter or scriptwriters (there is often more than one), the composer and so on (or any person deriving title from them), could be asserted so as to prevent the showing of the film either outright or except on payment of fees. That is a complete negation of the intention that the film itself should have an independent copyright at the termination of which the performing rights in the film should be in the public domain. I think your Lordships will see the disadvantages, because it is to be expected that each of the constituent copyrights will run for a different period, dependent on the length of the lives of the various authors and composers; so that, before anyone could act safely on the assumption that the film was in the public domain, he would have to be sure that all the original authors and composers, scriptwriters and so forth had been dead for fifty years. That is just the situation which I am sure noble Lords would go out of their way to avoid.
I should like also to look at the practical position. I am given to understand
1124
that the usual practice of film companies is to buy the film rights in a book or play for the whole of its copyright life, so that, while ostensibly the copyright in the film would be for twenty-five years only, the company making the film would continue to enjoy the author's rights for his lifetime plus fifty years, and in this way continue to control the showing of the film. It is true that, in so far as the composer is a member of the Performing Right Society, the film company will probably not have bought the performing right in his music, but the composer is assured of his rights during the copyright film and thereafter for all purposes except so far as the actual showing of the film is concerned.
I should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, would point to the part of the Bill which was concerning him, about the question of copying.
LORD ARCHIBALD: The same page, paragraph (a) of subsection (5).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, I am grateful to the noble Lord. The noble Lord asked me whether "making a copy of the film" means the making of a print of the film or of an imitation of the film. It was intended to cover a print of the film; but that is a slightly different point. If the noble Lord has any further point, again I should be grateful if he would communicate with me.
LORD ARCHIBALD: I think there is a point which would be helpful to the noble and learned Viscount. I will send it in.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I was looking at the next Amendment. In view of what the noble and learned Lord has said and the explanation which the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft gave earlier, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14:
Copyright in television broadcasts and sound broadcasts
14.—(1) Copyright shall subsist, subject to the provisions of this Act—

(a) in every television broadcast made by the British Broadcasting Corporation (in this Act referred to as "the Corporation") or by the Independent Television Authority (in this Act referred to as "the Authority") from a place in the United Kingdom or in any other country to which this section extends, and

1125

(b) in every sound broadcast made by the Corporation or the Authority from such a place:

Provided that this subsection shall not apply to a television broadcast or sound broadcast in so far as it is a repetition of a television broadcast or sound broadcast previously made from such a place either by the Corporation or by the Authority, and is made by broadcasting material recorded on film, records or otherwise.
(3) The acts restricted by the copyright in a television broadcast or sound broadcast are the following acts, if done by utilising the broadcast in question either directly or indirectly, that is to say,—

(b) in the case of a sound broadcast, or of a television broadcast in so far as it consists of sounds, making a sound recording of it for the purpose of selling or letting for hire records embodying that recording, or for the purpose of broadcasting the recording or of causing it to be heard in public, or, where such a recording has been so made, making a record embodying that recording;

(c) in the case of a television broadcast, causing it, in so far as it consists of visual images, to be seen in public, or, in so far as it consists of sounds, to be heard in public;

(d) in the case either of a television broadcast or of a sound broadcast, rebroadcasting it.

LORD MANCROFT LORD MANCROFT moved to leave out the proviso to subsection (1). The noble Lord said: We now pass on to slightly different matters. The effect of this Amendment, No. 80, is to give copyright in all broadcasts on sound and television, whether recorded or live, and thus ensure that, under the terms of the tribunal provisions in Clause 23, licences for the public performance of all television broadcasts are brought within the jurisdiction of the tribunal. Clause 14 of the Bill, as printed, gives a broadcasting copyright only in live television broadcasts or the first showing of recorded television broadcasts if they have not previously been broadcast live. The effect of the Amendment I am now moving, since it gives broadcast copyright to all broadcasts (that is, both firsts and repeats), is that those which are recorded on film will have their film rights under Clause 13 as well as their broadcast right under Clause 14. I think it is undesirable that licences should be needed separately for the film rights under Clause 13, and it is proposed to put down an Amendment at a later stage to render this
1126
unnecessary, but the precise scope of the Amendment I am not in a position to set out at the moment in any detail. The Amendment is necessary as film copyright is not within the jurisdiction of the tribunal.
As regards sound broadcasts, the Bill as printed gives no performing right in a live sound broadcast, but recorded sound enjoys the performing right given to records under Clause 12. The Copyright Committee recommended against a performing right in sound broadcasts, and it is proposed that there should be no performing rights in recordings made by the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. That is the purpose of this Amendment, which I hope will commend itself to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 42, leave out from beginning to end of line 4 on page 19.—(Lord Mancroft.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I tried to follow the noble Lord's argument carefully. Do I understand that he is trying to reconcile the Bill with the argument I raised on Second Reading, about recordings, re-recordings, and original recordings? Because I do not quite follow him if he is not. He says that there is no copyright in a sound broadcast; but if the broadcast is by a gramophone record there must be, except that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has now accepted my Amendment on Clause 12; that must make a world of difference.
As I pointed out on Second Reading, one-third of the B.B.C. programmes are recordings of some sort; some are original recordings of a gramophone record some are recordings of the recording of a gramophone record; some are recordings on tape, and some are recordings of recordings of recordings. Do I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has tried to work out a solution for the poor, unfortunate little backroom boarding-house keeper in Scarborough—my favourite illustration—which would be for her to stand against her little wireless set and turn it on and off as a copyright recording came on or as a live broadcast came on? I do not think I followed the noble Lord precisely. I tried to.
Has he taken into account now that there will be no copyright in playing a gramophone record or giving a public

1127
performance of a gramophone record if that takes place under certain circumstances which I outlined? It does not matter very much whether the gramophone record is played on a gramophone in the room, whether it is played on a gramophone in a studio where it is broadcast, or whether it is played on a gramophone and then recorded to be broadcast at some other time. Has he taken that point into consideration? I expect it is my fault I have not followed perfectly, but that is what I understood; that he was trying to make simple the dilemma of what is a copyright performance and what is not.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I think the fears of the noble Lord are probably unfounded. As I understand the present Amendment it is to leave out the proviso as regards repetitions, and if the noble Lord will turn his attention to Clause 14 (3) I think he may relieve his mind of any undue anxiety as to the Blackpool boarding-house keeper, because it seems to me unlikely that the Blackpool boarding-house keeper will do any restricted acts.
LORD MANCROFT: My noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham has put one of the points I was going to make, and therefore I will not repeat it. When I was talking about the Amendments we are going to make, I was talking of the Amendments the drafting of which had been put in train before the various steps that were taken this afternoon. I cannot guarantee that the effect is the same now as it was before the changes to Clause 12 were made, and I shall have to look into the point again. Our landlady has now switched from Scarborough to Blackpool, but her difficulties are the same. I will bear in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has said in looking at this matter again.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I think I shall have to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, with the proviso that at the next stage of the Bill, the Bill as it will then be printed, with this Amendment in it, will be subject to another Amendment which the noble Lord has not yet had time to have drafted. I want to be as helpful as I can. I understand the noble Lord's dilemma, and I offer no objection to this Amendment, with the proviso that we shall have to look at it closely in the light of the
1128
Amendment that he will put down on the next stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This is really a drafting Amendment and I am only trying to be helpful. We are now dealing with the period for which a television broadcast or sound broadcast shall subsist. The proposal in the Bill is to give the copyright for twenty-five years. Subsection (2) says:
"… and any such copyright shall continue to subsist until the end of the period of twenty-five years from the end of the calendar year in which the broadcast is made, and shall then expire."
What I propose is that it should read:
"… twenty-five years from the end of the calendar year in which the broadcast is first made.…"
Surely I am right. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 10, after ("is") insert ("first"). —(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD MANCROFT: I agree with what the noble Lord says. I accept the Amendment in principle, but I thought we had taken care of this point ourselves in our Amendment to Clause 14, at page 19, line 11. I believe that covers the point the noble Lord is making, and I would rather my Amendment were accepted.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If it is the same thing, I will not take up time by arguing the matter. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MANCROFT: This Amendment does what I hope I have now persuaded the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, it does. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 11, at end insert—
("(3) In so far as a television broadcast or sound broadcast is a repetition (whether the first or any subsequent repetition) of a television broadcast or sound broadcast previously made as mentioned in subsection (1) of this section (whether by the Corporation or by the Authority), and is made by broadcasting material recorded on film, records or otherwise,—

(a) copyright shall not subsist therein by virtue of this section if it is made after the end of the period of twenty-five years from the end of the calendar year in which the previous broadcast was made and

(b) if it is made before the end of that period, any copyright subsisting therein by virtue of this section shall expire at the end of that period.")—(Lord Mancroft.)

VISCOUNT HALLSHAM: This Amendment enables me to ask my noble friends on the Front Bench whether the period of twenty-five years for broadcasts is the right one, now that they have accepted fifty years for films. I was not quite so keen on fifty years for films as some noble Lords who spoke. I should have thought that the best broadcasts which had been made were more likely to survive for fifty years than the best films, although that may well be a matter of opinion. I wonder whether noble Lords on the Front Bench will consider whether their conduct in accepting fifty years for films does not carry the corollary that they should accept the same period for broadcasts.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: I did not say anything about films, although I was sceptical of the proposal to extend the period from twenty-five to fifty years. I hope this will not be made a precedent. After all, the law of copyright was originally intended for the purpose of protecting authors, artists and musical composers in the fruits of their labours. We are now dealing with the collective productions of great corporations, which are really on quite a different footing from the individual efforts of persons who depend for their living upon and deserve a certain amount of protection for, their artistic talent. When it comes to films, and still more when it comes to broadcast performances, which are the production of teams of twenty, thirty or forty people, we are on very different ground. And if it be said that some of these things are great works of art and will live for more than twenty-five years, the fact that the copyright has expired at the end of twenty-five years will not prevent their living.
LORD MANCROFT: I must confess that I had not considered this point. I have frequently had the privilege of hearing my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham on the radio, but I have never yet seen him in a film. I will consider this matter, but I must confess that my mind is moving rather more in the direction of what the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, has said. I was not wholly in favour of the change to fifty years for films, for the reasons which the noble Lord has given; but your Lordships appeared to think more that way, and I gave in. But this is a different matter,
1130
and I should like to look at it much more carefully before giving any promise. I think the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, has answered the chief objection which my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham may have had in mind. I will look at this, but with only a slight promise that the same concession will be made.
LORD FARINGDON: I hope the noble Lord will look at this point with care. At first hearing I find myself in agreement with the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham. Apart from the fact that I think there is, in general practice a certain convenience in having the same length of time, there is no sanctity about the period of fifty years. But if it is to be fifty years for one thing, then I feel it should be fifty years for another. In my view, there is a better case for broadcasts than for films. In broadcasting, the original broadcaster will retain an interest in subsequent broadcasts, and it seems to me that his copyright should be preserved. Under this Bill it will be completely extinguished, so far as broadcasts are concerned, in twenty-five years, whereas if he had written it—and presumably in a case where he had written it, it would be the whole of his lifetime, plus fifty years—it would not be.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: This Amendment, which goes with Nos. 84 and 89, is a drafting Amendment. With the others, it makes clearer the conditions under which a film of a broadcast may be made for private purposes, without infringing broadcast copyright. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 17, leave out from ("making") to end of line 22 and insert (", otherwise than for private purposes, a cinematograph film of it or a copy of such a film.")—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: I beg to move Amendment No. 84.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 24, leave out from ("making") to end of line 30 laid insert (", otherwise than for private purposes, a sound recording of it or a record embodying such a recording.")—(Lord Mancroft.)
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: It is very difficult for anybody who is not a lawyer to make any useful contribution

1131
to this debate. To start with, I must confess that I am a director of Electric and Musical Industries, Limited, and also of the Greyhound Racing Association, so I come under both films and shows. I have not taken much part in the debate, but I think one point wants to be appreciated, and that is the difference between the record and the show. When you make a record you spend money on producing some sound and you expect to get some money from selling those records later; and if you can get more money from people who have heard them in a public place, so much the better. But when you are organising shows, many of them are "once only" occasions. They are of interest only for the one night, for the one time, and never again. Consequently, you cannot organise, say, a big boxing match, unless you are certain that people are going to turn up to see the actual fight where it takes place. If you do not give protection to the promoter from the point of view of broadcasting, you may, and will, get the absurd spectacle of nobody appearing at the place where the incident takes place, with everybody up and down the country looking-in at it. That would be absurd for the promoter. But it is not only the promoter who will be hurt; it will, in fact, result in nobody ever promoting anything. It is for that reason that I hope the Government will be firm in seeing that the broadcasting of the "once only' events will be confined to the home and not be allowed to be broadcast for public gain in public places.
LORD MANCROFT: I am interested to hear what my noble friend Lord Brabazon has to say. If he will look at Amendments Nos. 86A and 86B, he will see that the point he has just made with regard to sound is even more to the forefront of the argument when it is concerned in the matter of television. The point he has made is well known and well understood. It does not occur on Amendment 84, which is purely a drafting Amendment, but I have his point firmly in mind.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Am I to understand from the noble Lord that the Amendment he has just moved, and the Amendment lower down, take care of the point to which I wanted to draw his attention in regard to Amendment No. 85?
LORD MANCROFT: Not wholly.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Then I shall have to argue that.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.33 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (3) (b), to omit all words beginning "for the purpose of" down to the end of the paragraph. The noble Lord said: Are not the words that I seek to leave out, from "it" in line 25 to the end of line 30, redundant? I should have thought that all those words are superfluous. What you are trying to do in paragraph (b) is to say that the acts restricted by the copyright are, in the case of a sound broadcast or of a television broadcast in so far as it consists of sounds, making a sound recording of it. That is the restriction you wish to impose. Why have all this other paraphernalia tacked on to it? Surely, that is covered in paragraph (c), which says:
"in the case of a television broadcast, causing it, in so far as it consists of visual images, to be seen in public, or, in so far as it consists of sounds, to be heard in public."
That is seeing and hearing in public. Paragraph (c) is the restrictive act, and in paragraph (b) surely the restrictive act is making a sound recording of it. I only thought I was helping the noble Lord by cutting out redundant words. The main issue I shall join with him will be under paragraph (c). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 25, leave out from ("it") to end of line 30.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I think the noble Lord who has just spoken has a good point here. Indeed, I would go further than he did, because he suggests that the words he seeks to leave out are unnecessary. I would suggest that they are dangerous, and I will tell the Committee why. I think it is an extremely dangerous thing to allow people, for private purposes or otherwise than for gain, to make sound records of broadcasts. They can be used for all kinds of fraudulent and improper purposes. I speak as one who broadcasts occasionally. If a sound record could be made of my voice saying something in a broadcast and then used out of its context at some subsequent period of time, for the purpose of making it appear as if I had said something which I never did, I should be, I

1133
think rightly, rather resentful. Those who broadcast in public on controversial subjects have always been afraid of this happening. In foreign countries this has been done quite deliberately in order to ruin the reputations of those whose reputations are sometimes open to attack—namely, public men. It has been done by dictatorships, and it has also been done unscrupulously in America. I am not at all sure that the true view is that the sound recording of a broadcast ought not to remain at all except in the hands of the person owning the copyright; and I cannot, for the moment, see why the limiting words should be present.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am only too happy to accept that, because I am not a lawyer. I should have thought that what the noble Lord wished to guard against—and I quite accept that it should be guarded against—was contained in paragraph (c), because that says that a recording of a television broadcast must not be seen or heard in public. If the noble Lord thinks it is better to have both, I do not mind. I make no point on this, and I put it down only because I thought it was a good point to bring up on drafting.
LORD MANCROFT: Now we come to quite a different point. Let us leave drafting for the moment and consider the purpose. The drafting, which I think is correct, was to meet a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Burden, on Second Reading, and the point to which my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham took exception. If I remember aright (I have not his speech in my hand, but I remember the content of it), the noble Lord, Lord Burden, wanted to protect the amateur enthusiast who likes to make records for private use without gain. In that we saw no objection, and it is for that we have provided in the Bill. It is a very restricted right. I must confess that I have not considered the point my noble friend Lord Hailsham has made, but I wonder whether his fears are not slightly ill-founded, in view of the tight restriction we put in. Not only did we do it in order to meet the point of the noble Lord, Lord Burden, but I ought to tell your Lordships that representations in favour of the right to make records for private use were made to us by the British Sound Recording Asssociation when we were preparing the interim Bill last February. A letter was pub-
1134
lished in The Times newspaper on that point, and it was to meet what we considered a legitimate point that we redrafted the Bill. I do not think the fears which my noble friend Lord Hailsham has are well founded, if I may say so with great respect—at least, I hope they are not. That is what we intended to do, and I hope that your Lordships will agree that we have not gone too far.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: May I put the point again? Many of us—and I think the noble Lord is one—have broadcast from time to time. As the Bill is drafted at the moment it is open to an unscrupulous person to take a sound recording of my voice, or of my noble friend's voice, for purposes which he need not specify and which he may not give effect to for a number of years after he has made that sound recording. I cannot conceive any legitimate purpose of anybody, other than the broadcasting authority to whom I sell my broadcast, making a sound recording of my voice. Nor can I conceive of anybody, for any legitimate purpose, making a sound recording of my noble friend's voice. I cannot conceive why this should be done by people who are described as "enthusiasts." I can understand why criminals might want a sound recording of somebody else's voice. I can understand why people who wish to pervert one's opinions might make a sound recording of my voice or other people's voices, but I cannot conceive any legitimate or honourable purpose for which it would be wanted. Therefore, I say, let the broadcasting corporation for whom one is broadcasting have the copyright, or let the owner of the voice keep it to himself.
LORD FARINGDON: I can tell your Lordships what people make these recordings for, and that is for their own pleasure. I daresay they do not often make a recording of the voice of the noble Viscount (the noble Viscount himself said he was unable to imagine why they should) for, having heard him, they no doubt turn to the Listener to read again his weighty words; but they do make recordings of things like operas. An acquaintance of mine who is rather expert at this particular hobby made some recordings of a number of performances given at, and broadcast from, Glyndebourne and those, after the death of Fritz Busch, were the

1135
only existing recordings of those operas. They were of considerable interest, quite apart from their original use.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: I appreciate the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, but there is another side to this question. It is, of course, conceivable that over the wireless or television there may be broadcast a libel upon some individual. I do not see any reason why that individual should not be entitled to take a recording in order that he should have evidence, if necessary, to protect his reputation against something which otherwise might do him infinite damage.
LORD CHORLEY: We must all have a great deal of sympathy with the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, but it is a little unrealistic to think that a Copyright Act will be the way to handle an offence of that kind which he properly describes as "criminal." If it had to be stopped, as it ought to be, it ought to be dealt with in a criminal measure rather than by the sort of civil sanctions which are attached to a Copyright Act.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If my Amendment has done nothing more, it has been the cause of an interesting discussion. I think I am swayed by the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. If your Lordships will give me permission, I will withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.43 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (3) (c), after "seen in public," to insert:
"at a theatre, cinema, concert hall or other similar place where a charge is made for admission."
The noble Lord said: With your Lordships' permission, I will speak to this Amendment and the next at the same time. This is, I suppose, perhaps the most important Amendment to this Bill. We had some extraordinary good fortune in removing from the gramophone record clause in Clause 12 the performing right. This is what I seek to do here. I do not think it is right to bring into this Bill a principle which has caused so much trouble ever since 1933 in respect of a performing right in gramophone records. I repeat what I said before in reply to my noble friend Lord Faringdon, that I
1136
have a profound respect for the rights of any employee who is a performer in any field—music, theatre, television, broadcasting or anything else; but the first thing I fear is that we shall set up by this Bill the very same whip with which to scourge ourselves at some future date as we did in 1911.
What is the Government's confessed reason for putting in this performing right? Go back to the days of the Copyright Committee. They said, without a blush, that the real reason for recommending a performing right in television was so that the B.B.C. could issue licences and charge for a public performance of a television programme, because do not forget that the Copyright Committee's Report was issued before the advent of any other broadcasting organisation. It was said that the only way to persuade sports promoters to give their entertainments, whether it be boxing, football finals, cricket test matches or Wimbledon, was to enable the B.B.C. to meet their ever-increasing financial demands. In point of fact, it was said (I think my memory is correct) by the Lord Chancellor, on the Second Reading of this Bill, that the whole future of the televising of sporting events rested upon this one question of finance. And yet when the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, wound up for Her Majesty's Government on the Second Reading, what did he say? He said that the Opposition were not to imagine that anybody was going to "get fat" upon the proceeds of this performing licence; it would amount to only "a few shillings"—those were his exact words.
LORD MANCROFT: Yes, but the noble Lord will remember that, when I was talking about "a few shillings," I was talking only about our old friend the Scarborough landlady.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: That I quite agree. It was only to cost "a few shillings." I can assure the noble Lord that, in view of the increased money that will be required in future to placate the financial demands of the sporting promoters, now that the Government have brought a competitor into the field to push up the price, it will take something more than "a few shillings" per hotel, boarding-house or anything else; because since the Copyright Committee's Report was issued we have had the advent of the I.T.A.

1137
I will not discuss the merits or demerits of the Independent Television Authority, but in this context of cost the net result of its intervention has been to increase the B.B.C.'s expenses for many of these outside television broadcasts by anything from four to ten times what they were paying before. I shall not argue whether that is good or bad, but it is a fact. If, as I heard the other day, £100,000 is to be the fee charged for (I think it is) the right to broadcast or to televise a succession of sporting events, it is going to take more than a few shillings per head from the hotels of this country. But I say it is wrong in principle; it has been brought in again by a side wind. Cannot we really learn from experience? The other thing was brought in by a side wind. What is brought in by a side wind is—that some extra revenue is necessary to see that television fills its proper rôle of giving a wide coverage.
I maintain that if television is going to cost a lot more money there is one way to meet that cost, the same as every other increased cost has to be met—that is, out of the general television licence. What is the good of saying that you are going to give a performing right with all the past knowledge that you have of how that can be abused? How do you know, how can you say, that that performing right will not be abused by certain sections, the same as the performing right given to a record manufacturer has been abused over years? Cannot we learn? If you want the B.B.C. to have sufficient funds properly to fulfil their function of providing the British viewer with all the entertainment which the British viewer has a right to expect, increase the licence fee. You might feel inclined to give them back the £2 million a year you take from them now. That would pay for a lot.
Why go to this subterfuge? After all is said and done, we have to pay for things if we want them. We have now to pay increased costs for riding on the buses—no doubt that is necessary. The London Transport Executive has given a reason which to me sounds a sensible reason. Surely the reason for increasing the cost of a television licence is that it costs more to put on the screens the Cup Final, the Test Matches, Wimbledon, or a boxing promotion. Why pillory one section of the community—the hotel, the boarding house, the working men's club?
1138
Then, how far do you go with this? Every television set in a shop window which is switched on and shows the visual performance but does not transmit the sound would have to have a performing fee licence—it is a public exhibition; it is allowing sound or vision in public.
I come to the next point. There are now two authorities—the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. When the establishment of the I.T.A. was proposed in the Television Bill, now the Television Act, it was the declared intention of the Government that it should be a complete private enterprise service and that it should cover by its advertising rates its costs of providing programmes. In direct contradiction to their proposed policy, the Government are now, by a side wind, giving it public funds by this right to collect a licence fee. What would be the result? Can your Lordships imagine the Independent Television Authority, which must stand or fall by getting its programmes on to the screens, by hook or by crook, just as newspapers seek to increase their circulations, collecting these fees? Can you imagine them saying that they want a fee from a hotel for projecting their programmes containing advertising matter upon the screen of the hotel television set? I should think they would go round and pay the hotel to show it. What does this mean? It means that the B.B.C. are the only ones who will have the stigma of collecting a licence fee. What will happen? I am sure the Government do not want this. I could accuse the Government of a number of things, but I do not think I can accuse them of this. Do they really want to handicap the B.B.C.? Do they really want the B.B.C. to charge a public performance licence fee and the I.T.A. not, so that the can one day say, "Viewing research. Ours is double or treble that of the B.B.C."?
What is the reason for giving this performing right? If it is true—I still cannot think that it is anything but true—that the real object is to increase the revenue, to provide that amount of revenue which will allow all the best sporting events to be shown on television, then the only way to do it is for the Post Office to collect an increased fee, as they do today, and for everybody to pay an equal share, whether they view their television in their homes, in the atmosphere of their local public-house, or in a work-

1139
ing men's club. The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, may reply that the tribunal to be set up will be able to give social services a right to apply for a licence without paying anything. But what will be the tribunal's position—a tribunal set up wholly and solely for copyright purposes —if it is projected into the difficult field of industrial relations, a field in which they have no right and are not competent to interfere, and if we have various people putting a pistol to the heads of programme companies or the B.B.C. saying that any licence they grant must contain something like the terms and conditions that were once imposed by Phonographic Performance, Limited, supposing that there is industrial trouble? Surely, the simple way out is to follow the excellent example which the Government have now set in accepting the principle of our Amendments to Clause 12, and not have any performing right at all.
We have tried to put forward Amendments, and in those Amendments we have tried to be specific. I do not think that television performances should be shown on the screens of cinemas, as may well happen in the future, or in theatres where payment is made for admission, without their paying something for that privilege. We have a right to say that that shall apply in every other case. Surely Her Majesty's Government are going to be consistent. I have been hoping that the noble and learned Viscount would jump up and say that I need go no further because the Government would accept this Amendment. We treat this as we treated the previous Amendment, as a matter of principle. We think that there should be no charge for performing rights. When a person buys a television set he should be able to use that set for any purpose whatsoever; and he should be charged the appropriate overall licence fee for any purpose whatsoever except, as I have said, where an entertainment is shown for the purposes of commercial profit in a place such as a theatre or hall.
Again, we are not tied to the actual wording of the Amendment, but our view is that this is the only means by which one can achieve the object and be consistent. I now see the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, sitting on the Government Front Bench. When the noble Viscount was speaking during, I believe, the Third
1140
Reading of the Television Bill, he said that the Government gave way on the question of the £750,000, and did so against their wishes, only to placate noble Lords who wanted that arrangement. The noble Viscount then said that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government that the I.T.A. should stand on its own financial feet, a private enterprise, augmenting its revenue as required through its advertisements. This Bill means that they will be getting public money into their coffers, and will give them the right to charge a licence fee for public performance. We hold that in view of all that has happened in the past this is a completely wrong principle. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 32, at end insert ("at a theatre, cinema, concert hall or other similar place where a charge is made for admission.").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
5.3 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: With respect to the noble Lord who has just spoken, I feel that, though he spoke with much emphasis, he was drawing a totally false analogy with the performing rights situation as it exists elsewhere, and probably was misguided in the policy he was urging upon Her Majesty's Government. I confess to being no friend of those collecting societies that try to stop land-ladies and hotel-keepers from hearing small performances of their members' works-I believe that has been vastly overdone. But as I understand this subsection, it does not perpetuate or extend that situation in any way. Unless I am vastly mistaken, it puts into the hand of two great public corporations (and, with respect, both the I.T.A. and the B.B.C. can come within that category) the right to stop public broadcasts of their own copyright material. I see no fear whatever that they would employ the services of the societies which collect twopences on gramophone records in order to enforce those rights from a landlady in Blackpool or Scarborough. It seems to me to be fanciful and unreal to imagine that they would.
The question one has to consider is whether or not the right to stop these public broadcasts, for which admission is not paid, is rightly put in the hands of public corporations. I am not going to pursue the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, about

1141
the Television Act, about which I expressed myself rather freely at the time. These two corporations exist by sanction of Parliament, and both are entitled to be regarded by Parliament as responsible public bodies. I should have thought that the balance of advantage lay almost entirely the other way. The noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, some forty minutes ago, expressed great fear on behalf of promoters of public entertainments. He was mainly interested. I think, in sporting events, but the same principle would apply to other public entertainments, which may or may not be broadcast by the B.B.C. I sympathise with his fears, though perhaps they too were exaggerated. One does not know how things will work out in practice. Let us see how the noble Lord's Amendment could operate upon those fears of my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara.
Suppose that you have something like the Wimbledon tennis or a boxing match at Manchester. The promoters of the boxing match will obviously be afraid of selling the broadcasting rights to either the B.B.C. or I.T.A. if they think their "gate" will be affected. That was the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, and with certain limitation I agree with that view. In the end, if promoters are to broadcast the events which they are promoting in such a way as to affect the "gate," it means killing the goose which lays the golden egg, because ultimately the event itself is destroyed. Supposing the Committee accepted the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, how would it work out? It would mean that if there were a boxing match in Manchester which the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. wished to broadcast to the nation in the interests of the viewing public (and their desire to do so is one in which the Committee will sympathise), they would go to the promoter of that boxing match in Manchester and say, "We want to broadcast your boxing match." "Oh no, you won't," says the promoter, "because if you do so every public-house in this town will be able to show that boxing match to their customers without those people going to the ringside and paying the gate." As I see it, that would be the net result of the noble Lord's Amendment.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If the noble Viscount will be good enough
1142
to look at subsection (4) of Clause 27 he will see that that subsection is put in, presumably, expressly to guard against that contingency. With the greatest respect, what the noble Viscount is now saying has nothing to do with the fundamental principle of giving a performing right. What he has to say is how that performing right, and the licence to exercise that right, is to be operated in the circumstances he is now putting forward. I take it that it is covered by subsection (4) of Clause 27.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am bound to say that this Bill is very complicated and it may be that the interlocking provisions have a different effect from that which I had supposed. If I am making a mistake here, I am sorry. But, with respect to the noble Lord, I think he has got performing rights on the brain about this particular Amendment. When we are talking about giving copyright to the two great corporations, we are not talking about the same thing in pari material as giving the performing rights to numerous individual performers who, through collecting societies, can hold the public up to ransom. The argument which I was endeavouring to put to the Committee is, l should have thought, sound, subject to the possibility (which shall certainly look at) that I may not have related this Amendment to Clause 27. I will not express an opinion on that point without looking into the matter carefully.
The argument I have endeavoured to pose is that if this Amendment were allowed it would make it much more difficult for the two great corporations to get the broadcasting rights of any public performance, because in the main it would be possible for persons who did not charge for admission but who had an interest in attracting people to their premises for other purposes—as, for instance, entertainment or drink—to put on a show in such a way as to interfere with the gate of the promoters. I should have thought, with respect to the noble Lord, that it would operate in such a way as to limit the rights of the public as represented by the two corporations, to see broadcasts of the kind to which Lord Brabazon of Tara referred. I may be wrong; the noble Lord will no doubt tell me if I have seen this in the wrong light.

1143
I should like just to add this. When we are dealing with a question of copyright in television films and sound broadcasts we are dealing with something which is rather novel in its kind. I value copyright in most of the things which I either write or say not so much because of their commercial value—because I am sorry to say that they have very little—but because of the protection which copyright gives to one's right of privacy in regard to so many of one's utterances and writings, the right to prevent unauthorised use of them. When I broadcast I know that I put the copyright of my broadcast in the hands of the corporation, whether it be the B.B.C. or the I.T.A.; and I am thereby preventing with numberless, anonymous, unexcept in so far as they may be licensed for proper purposes by a public body. If it turned out that that copyright was going to be interfered with by permitting reproduction except to those who charge for admission, I should begin to feel—as I know would a great many people who broadcast on public issues—anxious lest unauthorised use be made of their words or performances. I believe, for the reason I have given, that the noble Lord is worrying too much about performing rights in this matter. We are not dealing with numberless, anonymous, unidentifiable individuals who may exercise their rights through a collecting society. We are dealing with two great corporations, and I do not believe that, if this clause were as it stands approved, these corporations would be likely to abuse the rights and the confidence which Parliament has placed in them.
5.14 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: Listening to the noble Viscount who has just spoken, I began to wonder whether I had understood the Amendment correctly or not. I thought it raised very simple points. May I go back and give your Lordships my understanding of it? When this Committee reported—I forget when it was but I believe it was a year or so ago—they recommended this right and they stated—I am reading from Section 201 of the Report:
"it will be recalled that one of our principal reasons for proposing this right was to enable the B.B.C."—
that was the only corporation then in existence—
1144
"to make its financial offers and its conditions of control sufficiently attractive to the sports promoters and others to induce them to allow televising."
That is why they suggested it. It is obvious that there is this thought in the minds of the sports promoters always: if I allow televising, the more I allow such television the more likely it is that people will not attend my events; therefore, I want to be compensated. I think that is right. If you give them enough compensation they may run that risk in certain cases; I do not know whether they would in all. In the case of cricket, I know that unfortunately the idea is entertained that if you allow too much televising you will not get cricket encouraged at all and the local clubs will suffer as funds will dry up.
We have to consider whether this is fair; whether we are imposing a right tax on the right people. That is where I begin to think we are wrong. Whether you take it under this Amendment or under Amendment No. 87, it is exactly the same point—there are two ways to arrive at the same result. If you are going to raise a sum of money to enable the B.B.C.—I will discuss the I.T.A. presently—to make its financial offers attractive, you must be fair in levying the charge on the right people. I do not think it is fair to levy an extra charge, for instance, on hotels or boarding houses. I say that for this reason: first of all, the number of people who see television in boarding houses or hotels as compared with the people who see it in their own private houses is very small. I think there have been some calculations on this point, and it works out at something like 5 per cent. of the total viewers.
LORD DERWENT: I believe it to be 1 per cent. of the total instruments in use.
EARL JOWITT: In fact, it is a very small group. Secondly, of those people, a very large number who are staying in hotels or boarding houses for the summer months, or something of that sort, will have left their television sets in their own houses and have already paid for the licence. Then comes the problem: can it really be said that it is fair that those people who have gone to stay at a hotel or a boarding house, leaving their television licence at home, should have to pay extra to see television at the hotel or boarding house? I do not think it is.

1145
I do not like this right. I have already compromised about performing right so far as gramophone records are concerned. I am prepared to compromise here. Speaking for myself, I should say that if anyone goes to the length of having a cinema or theatre or large hall, charging for admission and getting people to go there to see the television show—that is to say, enriching himself by reproducing the work of others—my withers are un-wrung about him. I do not mind if he has to pay something extra for that. I think that is fair. But I cannot think it is right to extend that principle to these other places such as hotels where no charge is made for the performance as such. It seems to me quite unreal.
Consider the position. Suppose you have people at a boarding house sitting round and looking at the television. Suddenly something affected by this provision comes on. I suppose some official of the hotel will have to run and switch off the television unless they are prepared to pay extra fees. They may or may not be willing to pay. But that does not seem to me to be a good idea. I think this question has been immensely complicated by the introduction of the I.T.A., which when this Committee existed was not in being—I am not going back to the old controversy about I.T.A. I disliked it then and I dislike it to-day. As Lord Hailsham has told us, it is a public corporation and it must be treated as such. But there is this great difference between the I.T.A. and the B.B.C.: the I.T.A. depends upon advertisers for its revenue to keep it alive. The wider the public watching its television broadcasts, the better it is for the advertisers. Therefore if you are going to show the Grand National—that is the thing that we always hanker for on television—the man whose toothpaste or clothes-cleaner or pills is, advertised before the Grand National comes on is going to pay an enormous sum of money for that advertisement The I.T.A. will already get the extra revenue without making any charge at all. Has that been considered? Obviously, the more attractive the I.T.A. programmes are made, the larger their viewing public; and the larger their viewing public, the more money will they get for their programmes. So, I.T.A. are going to benefit twice over First, they are going to get more from the advertisers because they have these attractive pro
1146
grammes, and, secondly, they can levy an extra charge. I think that is a great difficulty and frankly do not know how to deal with it.
But on the assumption that I have to treat the I.T.A. and the B.B.C. on an equality in this respect, I humbly suggest that a fair compromise is this: where a cinema is charging for admission to see this televised event, let the proprietor pay some of that money to the television company in order that the television company may be in funds with which to compensate the promoter of the race, so that she suffers no harm. That is fair enough. But I cannot think it wise to extend this charge to clubs and other places. I do not see why we should exact this extra charge from a small section of the viewing public who already pay. I very much hope that, in the way they have done with regard to gramophone records, the Government will accept either this Amendment or the Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, which is perhaps an equally satisfactory way of arriving at this result.
LORD JESSEL: I think it would be convenient if I said a word about my Amendment before the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor replies. The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, has indicated that he likes my Amendment. Obviously, I am in sympathy with the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, and by the noble and learned Earl, but, frankly, I like my Amendment better. The noble Lord's Amendment specifies places and I think that might lead to difficulties of interpretation, especially in regard to the phrase "a similar place." Later there is Amendment No. 90, submitted by the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, which also tries to do the same thing as my Amendment. Here again I think my Amendment is better. The noble Viscount's Amendment also has the disadvantage of specifying places to be excluded, which will lead to difficulties in interpretation. And these Amendments leave out one or two places like clubs and pubs which are not also restaurants.
In my submission, the only satisfactory distinction we can draw is between places which charge for admission and those which do not. We knew that that can be administered because that is the test on which entertainments duty is now levied.

1147
I do not want to weary your Lordships with the arguments which the noble and learned Earl has put so well, but I should like to say a word about Clause 27 (4), which should be considered with Clause 14 (3) (c) to see what would be the effect if my Amendment were not accepted. So far as I can understand it, the position is as follows: the performing right tribunal which is going to be set up will have jurisdiction in disputes between television users and the organisations which issue licences for performing rights, not only to decide whether the licence fees and other conditions are reasonable, but also to decide whether the refusal of the licence is unreasonable, and, if they think that is so, to grant a licence themselves upon terms which they consider reasonable.
Clause 27 (4) provides a complete exemption to this rule. It says that where facilities for television broadcasts have been granted upon conditions which exclude the granting of a performing rights licence, the tribunal shall not hold a refusal or failure to grant that licence to be unreasonable. What does that mean? It means that if the promoter of a sporting event permits the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. to televise that event on condition that the programme is to be received only in private homes or within specified times, the performing rights tribunal will have no power to decide whether that condition and the consequent refusal of a licence is unreasonable, and every television user who comes under the ban will have no redress whatever. We shall then have a position where the promoter of any entertainment televised by arrangement with the televising authority will have the absolute legal right to insist that all television sets in such places as hotels, boarding houses, clubs and canteens shall be turned off during the broadcast of the event in question. It does not matter if the tribunal think this unfair. They are powerless to interfere, because the contract made with the promoter and the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. has this condition.
If my Amendment were accepted, all these hotel lounges, canteens, et cetera, would be taken out of the scope of this subsection, which surely can only be intended to apply to places where charges for admission are made. I can appreciate the promoter's point of view when he
1148
wants to black out entirely the reception of a television programme over an area, such as with the boxing match in Manchester to which the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, referred, but I cannot think it would be of much advantage to him to stop certain users in the area or to insist that certain users in the area, if they have the privilege of receiving this broadcast, should pay a small licence fee. It seems to me that under the Bill as it stands, it would be possible for the promoter to make it illegal for television sets in hotels and other places to show certain programmes even if the extra licence fee charged, as contemplated under the Bill at present, had been paid, for I presume it will be an annual fee; it cannot be an ad hoc fee for the special performance. I think that my Amendment is based on common sense, and I certainly support Lord Lucas of Chilworth's Amendment, although I would ask him to withdraw his and support mine for the reasons I gave when I started my speech.
5.30 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: I would briefly support the argument so ably put forward by my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham. He has given the true reason why some such provision in the Bill as we are now considering is necessary and why none of the proposed Amendments would work. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, during the Second Reading debate, in an important sentence which I think explained the right that we were conferring by this clause as well as it could be expressed, said it was as much a problem of control as of payment; and that was the same point as was made by my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham. The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, who always speaks so persuasively from the Opposition Benches, in his speech assumed throughout that the event would be televised and that all we were really considering was what payment it would be fair to charge. But, of course, the problem is quite different. The problem which has to be faced, as was made quite clear by the Copyright Committee, is this: unless you confer some copyright somewhere, various events will not be televised at all; that is the real problem which this House has to face. The Copyright Committee made it quite clear that their approach was the same approach as I am quite certain is common in all quarters of this House—namely,

1149
that they wished to create as few new copyrights as possible; therefore they put forward what they thought was the minimum new copyright which would enable sporting events to be televised at all; and that, I think, is what they have accomplished.
I have no doubt that there are points of detail and possible Amendments which deserve great consideration, but I am quite sure that the suggestion behind all the Amendments that we are now considering, the suggestion that one can make payment for entry the test, will not do. My noble friend Lord Hailsham gave the example of pubs; You do not pay for entry into pubs; you pay for what you buy after you have entered. My noble friend Lord Jessel has, very persuasively, put the point of view of hotels. Is it, however, really to be said that if the Savoy Hotel, for example, chooses to give, possibly, an expensive supper on a night when some great event can be televised but makes no charge for admission (a charge is made for the supper but not for admission), it is not giving a public performance, for which it is quite natural that it should have to pay a fee if this copyright is to be conferred?
I suggest that the Copyright Committee have proposed—and the Government have accepted their suggestion—that this minimum extension of the law of copyright is necessary if the public are to have television of certain events at all. Once you confer that copyright, the question then arises as to how you are going to guard against the abuse of the copyright so conferred. That is why we have all these provisions dealing with the tribunal to which we shall come later. The only point, I think, that we have to consider at this moment is whether it is plausible to make the test of liability whether you have paid for admission to the place or not, and I suggest that is quite impossible.
I have read, not without sympathy, a good many of the claims that have been made on behalf of the hotels, the smaller hotels, and I think that, as regards the quantum of what they should pay, a great many are extremely persuasive. Where they fail to persuade me is in their claim that they shall be entirely excluded. In fact, I have sometimes found in the same document, and even on the same page of the same document, the following two arguments: "We get no benefit wrhatso-
1150
ever from providing television, and therefore we ought not to have to pay; but we must provide it because otherwise people would not seek our custom at all." Whatever you may think of those two arguments individually, they do not run very well in double harness, and I think the sooner that is realised, the better. They should not say at one and the same time, "We are bound to provide this service, otherwise we should not get our public, but we gain nothing whatsoever by providing it." That does not make sense. They sometimes go on to say that television is of the same sort of necessity as the provision of water. Suppose it were. So far as I know, the Savoy Hotel does not pay the same water rate as a private householder.
I think a good deal of nonsense has been talked on this subject, and I hope that I am not adding to it. But, for the reasons I have given, I believe, first, that the Copyright Committee have proposed the minimum extension of the law of copyright which will enable sporting events to be televised at all; secondly, that the Government are right in adopting that recommendation; and thirdly, that the right way to provide against abuses is by the tribunal provisions to which we shall come later on in this Bill.
LORD MANCROFT: Perhaps it might be of some use if I now gave the Government's view. If the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, wishes to speak afterwards, he is of course at liberty to do so. But I want to give the Government's view now, while what my noble friend Lord Conesford has said is fresh in my mind. My noble friend has put what I would have said far better than I could possibly put it. So far from adding nonsense to what has been said, he has put the case more logically and clearly than I have heard it put for some time. I am not going to spend any further time on it, except to put two points which this very simple and yet very difficult problem puts before us. There is no question here of "grinding the face" of the Scarborough landlady. There is the tribunal to referee, in case there is any injustice or if any exorbitant charges are made. It is not a question of raising fees to provide extra cash to the B.B.C. or the I.T.A. or the promoters. We can dismiss that point entirely. It is solely a question of control.

1151
The two broadcasting organisations and the programme companies of the I.T.A., as well as the sports promoters, all feel strongly that the right to control the public performance of television programmes should be no less wide than it is in relation to literary, dramatic, and musical works and films. If this Amendment and the parallel Amendments are accepted we feel, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, who spoke on a different matter some time ago, that there will be a real risk that we just shall not get the programmes which we all want. The criterion between public admission and payment is exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, has put it. I will not weary your Lordships any more. That is all there is to it. I ask your Lordships to believe that we regard this as a matter of importance, and if your Lordships do not agree with the arguments you have heard put forward we must come to some other solution.
LORD DERWENT: Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I might have a further opportunity of speaking, now that he has answered me. What does he mean by saying that this is not a question of money? Either you have to provide enough money to pay your sports promoters, or you do not want the money at all. Is my noble friend suggesting that they should have copyright without any fees?
LORD MANCROFT: No; the noble Lord has misunderstood me. I said that it is not primarily a question of money. This is not put in as a money-making provision. It is primarily to get control to say that this event shall be broadcast and this event shall not. The money is a consideration, but I was looking at it primarily from the point of view of the Scarborough landlady, and that is what I meant by saying that money is not the primary consideration in the Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: It may well be that it is the primary consideration of the landlady. On Second Reading my noble friend rather laughed it off by saying it was only a few shillings. But a few shillings an hour, a few shillings a week, or what? A few shillings for what? How is this to be charged? Is there to be an annual fee? If there is to be an annual fee, as suggested by my noble
1152
friend Lord Jessel, which seems to be the easiest way of collecting it, how much will it be? How can the tribunal say a year in advance what the person will see in the way of sports and what a fair charge is? If it is an ad hoc charge, how on earth will that be made? If it is an ad hoc charge, it cannot be enforced, and no hotel keeper will give a promise when he does not know what will be shown. What I think my noble friend Lord Conesford forgets is this. Agreed that you have to have some control, the question is where is it to start and where is it to stop. We maintain that you are taking a small proportion of your licence holders and putting the whole burden on them. As I understand it from my noble friend Lord Jessel, he considers, as a matter of principle, that that is unfair. The only person who suggested yet another way out of the difficulty is the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, who suggested that there should be no copyright at all. That, I believe, might be a more satisfactory answer. In spite of what my noble friend Lord Mancroft has said, I hope that my noble friend Lord Jessel, or the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, will press this matter. Of the two, I prefer the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Jessel, because I think it is less ambiguous.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: It is perfectly clear from the discussion that has taken place that this provision of the Bill dealing with copyright in broadcast and television is introduced purely and simply for the commercial purpose of making bargains between the promoters of sporting events and the two corporations whose business it is to broadcast. It is not introduced for the primary purpose for which copyright exists in the Bill generally—namely, for the purpose of preventing somebody from profiting from the artistic or intellectual labour of somebody else. Nor is it introduced even for the purpose for which copyright is given to gramophone records—namely, in order to prevent somebody from making a copy of the record and being able to make that copy without undergoing the heavy overhead expenses necessary for that purpose. If that were intended there would be nothing in this clause about prohibiting public exhibition of these things; there would merely be a prohibition against re-broadcasting. That is perfectly proper. There is no reason why one broadcasting

1153
organisation should be allowed to pirate the activities of another and get the benefit of it for next to nothing.
But that is not the point at issue here. This is a proposal to prevent people from seeing or hearing certain broadcasts, even although they would see them upon television instruments or hear them from radio sets for which a private licence has been bought. The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has said that the primary object of this provision is to control these things. But whatever the Government may think the object is, there is not the slightest doubt that in the course of time what will happen will be that the promoters of public events which are extremely attractive will be able to exercise pressure upon the B.B.C. and upon the I.T.A., and will force them to turn the switch, which in turn will force the B.B.C. and the to impose onerous conditions upon every listener or viewer out of whom they think they can get a considerable sum of money. That is the inevitable commercial repercussion of this provision. It is all very well to say that the tribunal (which we will come to later in the course of our discussions) will be in a position to prevent it. None of us knows just what will happen in those circumstances, or by what criteria the tribunal will be guided in coming to their decisions. Therefore, if this clause is passed, we are allowing something to take place which will have repercussions that none of us can completely envisage.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I ask your Lordships whether we cannot come to a decision on this important matter. Does the noble Viscount want me to give way?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I have instructions to wind up this discussion.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I will peak only briefly. I want to make it clear that we are completely dissatisfied with this departure from the tolerant and sympathetic attitude we have had on the previous clauses of the Bill. It is obvious that the Government have made up their minds that they are going to carry this clause through at all costs. Therefore it is necessary to
1154
pinpoint that they are doing this in the face of warnings which have been issued to them from the beginning of the controversy, as between people who think as I do, or as the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, did at the time of the Television Bill, and a great number of people in the country—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I hope the noble Viscount does not suggest that I feel differently about that particalar matter now, because I do not.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I am sure the noble and learned Viscount does not, and he has been arguing the legal merits of the clauses. I did not suggest anything else. What is clear is that the Government were warned in the discussions on the Television Bill about what might be the effect of their decisions and that legislation in relation to this particular recommendation of the Committee which was set up and presided over finally by Sir Henry Gregory. It is plain to us that in order to provide the requirements of this increased competition between the separate television organisations funds have to be raised somewhere else. In fact, the history of television under the B.B.C. has been that it has not been necessary to have excess levies upon the users in the country for the benefits conferred upon them by television.
LORD CONESFORD: I should be grateful if the noble Viscount would give, way for one moment. Sir Henry Gregory's Committee made the recommendation of the right which die noble Viscount is now contesting before the I.T.A. ever came into existence. So the problem can scarcely arise out of the I.T.A.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I am well aware of that, and I was coming to the point that that recommendation was made nearly four years ago. We had quite a long time to consider it before the warnings were given from these Benches as to what would he the effect if the Government persisted in their television policy. It is quite certain, at any rate, from what has been quoted from the statement of the noble Viscount., Lord Woolton, when speaking on the Television Bill, that there is a good deal of feeling about the matter in that direction. It is also quite certain,

1155
from my recollection, that the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, and other Government speakers, inclined to my point of view, which was that there would be no further charge upon the public or upon the Exchequer other than, first, the advertising revenue and, secondly, the completely limited sum of £750,000 a year to that corporation.
Now what has happened in the meantime is that, for nearly the last four years an increasing number of films have been shown on television—films of sporting events and many other less desirable things—and, in spite of all that was said, no real difficulty has arisen. To say that people stay away from shows entirely because there is a television reproduction would be leaving out of account all the other facts. People are staying away because there is a bigger demand on their purses for other things and because entertainment tax has been increased. It is no good putting it down to the one thing—that there is a television service. All these matters have to be taken together. What the Government are really doing—as was hinted at by my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch and, I think, has been mentioned before from these Benches—is, for the first time in the history of our legislation, putting a new property right into a new kind of industry. That is what has happened, and the country had public warnings of it and what it will cost them.
In my view, it is entirely contrary to the pledges of the Government which were given in connection with the Television Bill, and it is really no use the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, trying to ride off by describing these things as being nonsense. People will not know whether they are chargeable until they are charged and hauled before a tribunal to see whether they are guilty or not. Is there to be any appeal from the tribunal? I think it is a most extraordinary state of affairs, introduced by the Government who were elected, they say, to try and reduce the number of controls in the country. I feel so strongly about the matter that I shall have no hesitation in going with my noble friends into the Lobby. We must stick to our Amendment, but I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, that I like his Amendment, too, and if
1156
his Amendment could be carried I should certainly withdraw my earlier one on the Marshalled List.
5.53 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think everyone will agree that after the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, every aspect of this matter has been canvassed: and I rise to put, as shortly as he did, the point of view of the Government, which opposes his own. The noble Viscount has drawn one herring of outstanding redness across the debate. He has tried, with that skill and vigour which all of us know he possesses, to infuse prejudice as between the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. Let us get it perfectly clear that that is not what your Lordships are being asked to vote about. On this issue the B.B.C. and the T.T.A., as I understand the matter, stand with the programme companies, as well as with the sports promoters, in feeling strongly that the right to control the public performance of television programmes should he no less wide in relation to their functioning than in relation to literary, dramatic and musical works and films.
As my noble friend Lord Conesford has pointed out, this matter came to the Copyright Committee and was considered, and its merits were decided before any question of the I.T.A. arose. Therefore, I ask your Lordships to consider whether or not you regard it as important that the vast number of viewers in the home—because they are the vast number—should have a chance of seeing the outside broadcasts which undoubtedly are one of the most popular and important parts of television at the present day. That is the issue. Without this provision it is going to be increasingly difficult to secure that these outside broadcasts are given. As my noble friend Lord Conesford said, it is a question of whether there will be a broadcast at all. That is the first point your Lordships have to consider: is that desirable? It is not a question as to whether the I.T.A. is desirable. It is a question which began on the issue as to whether it was desirable that the B.B.C. should do it alone. Now there are two companies, and it is equally desirable, I submit, that both should do it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I intended to make the point that the experience of the last four

1157
years has been that there has been a steadily increasing number of contracts made with the sports and other promoters for these matters, and that there has been no real difficulty; nor has that experience proved anything like a pointer to the kind of conclusion—which is made quite hypothetically—that it will lead to the stopping of these live performances.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is the noble Viscount's view, but my answer to the noble Viscount is that his view is not shared, first, by the B.B.C. to whom he has paid such deep and sincere homage; secondly, by the I.T.A., to whom he has not paid such homage; thirdly, by the programme companies, and, fourthly, by the sports promoters. The misfortune which the noble Viscount has to-day is that nobody that I have ever heard, except some speakers in this debate, agrees with him as to the position, and certainly the four bodies of opinion that ought to know best disagree with the noble Viscount. That is the point I was putting. The second point is that the need for what we are suggesting was propounded, as the noble Viscount has said, four years ago by a body that was considering the special position of the B.B.C. The third point that I put to the noble Viscount is that we are not considering merely 1 per cent. of the instruments, as I think my noble friend Lord Jessel put it, or 5 per cent. of the viewers We are considering, as we are bound to consider, and as noble Lords opposite would consider, were they in the Government, the needs of the ordinary viewer at home who does demand these sporting events.
Now I come to the next point. If it is right that the views of these bodies should be considered, should there he some possibility of control? I am not going to go hack over the question of establishing some right in the broadcasts that I have mentioned. I stand by, and I want your Lordships to know that I stand by, the quotation from my speech on the Second Reading which the noble Lord Lord Conesford, referred to: that this is as much a matter of control as of money. The reason for that is that a promoter must take note of what might happen in the big hotels, the restaurants and the gathering places in the neighbourhood of a particular event. I have listened carefully and with as open a mind as is possible to one who has studied the subject
1158
very fully, and I think your Lordships will give me credit for having listened carefully to everything that has been said in this debate on this Bill. I really find some difficulty, however, in finding an answer to that point. How can you expect promoters to welcome the showing of an event on their own doorsteps? I happen to be most familiar (because my constituency was within a few miles of the Grand National course, just as the noble Viscount's constituency was not very far away from it) with the feeling there. Everyone in Lancashire knows the feeling that that matter has created. The same thing might occur with regard to a boxing match or anything of that kind. I believe that the establishment of the right to some control is surely a reasonable matter. Again, I submit that it is irrelevant—is is not quite so ruddy a herring as the last one, but it is a fairly good pink—to say too much about the small hotels, because in this matter it is the bigger gathering places which are important.
The Amendment concedes the principle of places where people are congregated. We say that, in order to meet the requirements of the sporting promoters and the broadcasting companies, one has to go further than that. If there is a case of hardship, it can be considered separately; but here we have, as I say, to establish the right and the control. I ask your Lordships to consider only this. I do not think that anyone can say that I have been unreasonable in the Committee stage of this Bill. I have tried hard to accept anything that I possibly could. Even in some cases when I was not convinced, I have almost leaned over backwards in order to accept Amendments because I feel that its right for your Lordships' House. But here we have come to a very important climax from the point of view of television viewers and of the televising of outside broadcasts. For the first time in the consideration of this Bill, I ask your Lordships to consider seriously whether you are likely to jeopardise television.
6.3 p.m.
LORD FARINGDON: I wonder whether the noble and learned Viscount or the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, can answer a question? Both noble Lords seem to me to have introduced on their part —not a red herring but a herring into this controversy. What do they mean by

1159
"control"? I, too, have listened closely to this debate with, I think, an open mind. I am interested in this question of control. I take their point—I think I accept it; but how do they intend to exercise control? The issuing of licences will not be a control. It may be another means, as my noble and learned friend Lord Jowitt said, of raising extra money, but then we should be discussing whether or not it was the best way of raising it. But how are you going to control it? Are you going to forbid the pubs and clubs and hotels in a certain area to turn on their apparatuses on a certain occasion or between certain hours? How is this to be done?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, has asked that question. Of course, if it were a broad area, it could be done by not allowing television in that area. That does not answer the point. The point that really needs an answer is how to deal with substantial places that I have called public gathering grounds. If they are public gathering grounds then it will become known and it will be possible to get an injunction against them to stop them from doing it. That can be done. Suppose that the noble Lords who are moving this Amendment had left out "cinemas." There would not be the slightest difficulty, it being known that cinemas have to advertise in order to carry on. If they were getting this television, an injunction could be obtained against them because they would be doing it contrary to the licence. Nobody is going to worry about taking injunctions against "Sea View" boarding-house, with five bedrooms: but if there are 500 people in a big hotel dining room, you will worry and, on the facts which we assume, you will succeed.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: May I ask one question?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: We have heard a lot of talk about the finance of this matter. I should like to know what sort of figures are envisaged. We have heard it suggested, on the one hand, that it is going to cost only "a few shillings." With regard to these sporting events, the television authorities want sums of money enabling them to bid up
1160
to the figures which the sporting promoters want. The noble Lord, Lord Jessel, suggested—and it seems to me a valuable point—that these licences would not be paid in respect of each individual event but for the whole year. I should like to know the sort of figure that the Government and the Lord Chancellor have in mind. Do they imagine that a few hundred thousand pounds a year will enable the television authorities to buy all the entertainment rights in the sporting events and others which they are going to carry through? I should have thought the cost would certainly run each year to £1 million or more. Whatever the amount, it has all to be raised from hotels, boarding-houses and the like. Is it not rather misleading to talk of only "a few shillings"? It seems to me that in some cases, such as large hotels, it will run into quite a number of pounds. We have to face realities. The question I put to the Lord Chancellor is: What is the global sum that he imagines the television authorities will require in order to be able to buy all those rights in the sporting events which have been referred to?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, has put a question which no one could answer, because it is impossible to say what events in any particular year they will want to televise. Let me take the example of Test Matches. The amount that is paid for them will vary enormously. Also, the amount which is asked from the different classes of people who own the places where they will broadcast will vary. Of course, it will be—and we shall come on to consider this when we discuss the tribunal clauses—for the tribunal to say, within the conditions, as has been pointed out earlier in our debate, whether that amount is right. At the present time, for me to try to give any of these figures would be attempting to deal with something which is intangible and which will vary every year. I am afraid that I cannot go further.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: May I just put this further question. If the noble and learned Viscount cannot give any figure and cannot envisage the total amount required, is it not rather unreasonable of the Government to say that it is going to cost only a few shillings? It is just as impossible to decide how many

1161
shillings or pounds it is going to cost as it is to envisage how big is the global sum that will be required.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not think that the remark of my noble friend Lord Mancroft about a few shillings, which was confined to the small boarding-house is—whatever is the verbal opposite of an exaggeration—an unnecessary diminution of the problem, because on any basis, when you are considering, as my noble friend was, the small boarding-house, the amount must be small. But I do not wish to mislead the Committee. If one is considering a first-class hotel, with a dining room holding 500 or 1,000 people, then the amount will be much larger. I want to be quite frank on that point.
LORD SILKIN: I have not taken part in this debate so far, but before we divide on this matter I should like to see where we stand. It seems to me that we are not so far off as may appear. In his concluding remarks, the noble and learned Viscount said that nobody is going to worry about "Sea View" boardinghouse with five bedrooms. I take that to mean that even if they show television to their boarders he does not imagine that anyone would take action against them and—I hope I am not going too far in saying this—that possibly a "blind eye" will be turned to them. Largely, those are the people about whom we are concerned. We do not want to have to put those people in the position of having to go to a tribunal to decide how much they have to pay, with all the difficulties about which noble Lords opposite have spoken—whether the charge is to be per performance or per annum, or what.
On the other hand, speaking for myself, I am not concerned about the hotel with 500 visitors which puts on a television show, or about whether they charge for it: they are quite capable of looking after themselves. But is there not a possibility that the Government might reconsider the question of the boarding house and the pub, and leave the large hotels to look after themselves in some way? I know that there are difficulties of definition, and I am not asking the noble and learned Viscount to say here and now how it can be done. I have not worked out any line, but is it not possible to achieve what I believe the common sense of this Committee really wants—not to
1162
worry about people who, either directly or indirectly, are making a charge? I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, that if a hotel is charging thirty shillings for a dinner the question of how much of it is attributable to television is irrelevant; but I think the common sense of this Committee is that the small people should not be harassed by having to go and get a licence, by having to appear before a tribunal and so on. If, somehow, we can devise a method of separating the matter, I think that the Committee as a whole would be satisfied.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I think the reply of the noble and learned Viscount to the question of my noble friend Lord Faringdon exposed in stark nakedness the absurdity of this proposal. As my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch has said, the Government do not really know where they are getting to. The noble Lord, Lord Jessel asked: is it going to be an ad hoc licence, a daily or a yearly licence? Then somebody comes along and says, "We are going to have a 'black-out' over a certain area. I have paid my licence fee. Do I sue somebody for obtaining money under false pretences?" The answer to this is money. No sporting promoter of any kind promotes any sport unless he is going to be paid sufficient money. This is where the financial angle is at stake. We are against this principle of building another property right such as Parliament created in 1911, to its everlasting embarrassment and shame.
There is a way out of this difficulty. The noble and learned Viscount was quite right—there are more sporting events on the television screens to-day than there have ever been. There is no copyright, but more money has been forthcoming. I disclosed to the Committee—this is authentic—that sporting events and outside broadcasts are today costing the B.B.C., if anything, four to ten times more than they did before the setting up of the They are finding the money; they will have to find the money. Money will be the answer. I do not care whether it is a boxing match promoted by Jack Solomons or whether it is any other sporting event; money is the answer. You will never control the in the way that the noble and learned Viscount is thinking. You will bring down a host of

1163
trouble such as has happened before. There will be pistols at everybody's head. In this atmosphere the noble and learned Viscount might just as well have "gone the whole hog" and given the copyright in every sporting event into the hands of the promoter who promoted the event. In the last analysis, that is precisely what we are trying to do here.
I am afraid that we have a dividing line on the matter of principle. The noble and learned Viscount has been very conciliatory—he has been a model, if I may say so—but this matter is too vital; we cannot afford to let it go. There will be a lot more said on the matter before
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 34, at end insert ("at a theatre, cinema, concert hall or other similar place where a charge is made for admission").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
On Question, Amendment negatived.
6.27 p.m.
LORD BURDEN LORD BURDEN moved to insert at end of subsection (3):
"Provided that a local education authority within the meaning of the Education Act, 1944, or the Minister of Education, shall not be deemed by virtue of this subsection to commit an act restricted by the copyright in a
this Bill becomes "a good and perfect Act." I should not mind the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jessel. But I did not even want to go to the length of making the deciding factor the charging for admission; I wanted to leave outside the small charitable show where admission was charged. If I sense the feeling of the Committee, I think that they would rather divide now than wait any longer. With those few words I would ask the Committee to divide.
On Question, Whether the Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided:—
Contents, 19; Not-Contents.41.

CONTENTS

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Crook, L.

Lawson, L.

Derwent, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, L.

Furness, V.

Faringdon, L.

Mathers, L.

Greenhill, L.

Morrison, L.

Archibald, L.

Henderson, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Jessel, L.

Silkin, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

St. Aldwyn, E.

Conesford, L.

Selborne, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Salisbury, M. (L. President.)

Selkirk, E.

Freyberg, L.

Swinton, E.

Gifford, L.

Cholmondeley, M.

Hampton, L.

Reading, M.

Goschen, V.

Hawke, L. [Teller.]

Hailsham, V.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Albermarle, E.

Woolton, V.

Jeffreys, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Kinnaird, L.

Ferrers, E.

Aberdare, L.

Luke, L.

Home, E.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Mancroft, L.

Lonsdale, E.

Bennett of Edgbaston, L.

Rathcavan, L.

Munster, E.

Carrington, L.

Sandys, L.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Cawley, L.

Som̃ers, L.

Radnor, E.

Chesham, L.

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Teynham, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

television broadcast or sound broadcast if, for the purposes of teaching in an establishment maintained or assisted by them or him, they make or use a sound recording of the broadcast or, in the case of a television broadcast, they make or use a cinematograph film of the broadcast."
The noble Lord said: I believe that the B.B.C. has under consideration a considerable development in the television service for schools. It will be appreciated that some provision of the kind suggested in this Amendment is necessary; otherwise, unless the curriculum in the school is adapted to the broadcast, the effect of the broadcast would be lost. I am quite willing for this Amendment to be left for discussion with the educational authorities similarly to other educational Amendments. My

1165
point might, however, be met by the next Amendment on the Order Paper in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, providing no recording made in a school is subsequently used for broadcasting and that the use of a recording in a class room is not held to have been in public. That Amendment may cover what I have in mind. I am, in any case, content to have this matter discussed, and I hope that a satisfactory solution will be reached with the educational authorities. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 36, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Burdeh.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will certainly give all consideration to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Burden, and this aspect of the educational Amendments will receive due weight and thought. The next Amendment is really consequential on the Amendments Nos. 83 and 84, and I do not want any doubt about the position of the noble Lord, Lord Burden; but I will consider the point he has raised.
LORD GREENHILL: May I ask whether the same observations apply in regard to Scotland?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord can be quite sure that, what-ever I do, I never forget Scotland.
LORD BURDEN: In view of that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MANCROFT: The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has already said that this Amendment, No. 89, is consequential on Amendment No. 85. I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Burden, was in his place when Amendment No. 85 was discussed. I realise where the noble Lord, Lord Burden, was and I think I ought to explain to him that the point which I debated with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, when that Amendment was under consideration, was merely our attempt to meet a point made by Lord Burden on Second Reading. I wish to make it clear that that was done to help him, though not in the way he has just mentioned—it was in a slightly different aspect. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 43, at end insert—
"(5) For the purposes of subsection (3) of this section a cinematograph film or a copy thereof, or a sound recording or a record embodying a recording, shall be taken to be made otherwise than for private purposes if it is made for the purposes of the doing by any person of any of the following acts, that is to say,—

(a) the sale or lefting for hire of the original or any copy of the film, or, as the case may be, of any record embodying the recording;

(b) broadcasting the film or recording;

(c) causing the film or recording to be seen or heard in public."—(Lord Mancroft)

LORD BURDEN: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. My grand-daughter, I assume, will now be able to hear a sound recording that I make on my tape-recording machine.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I wish merely to say that we do not propose to debate this Amendment at the present time, but reserve our right to take any action we wish on the Report stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH had given notice of an Amendment to add to the Clause:
"(6) This section shall not apply to the use of television receivers in boarding-houses, hotels, restaurants, halls, convalescent homes, where there is no charge for admission and no commercial advantage is secured by the owner of the television receiver."
The noble Viscount said: We have already debated a very large part of the matter with which this Amendment deals, and I do not 1Dropose to move it. The wording is slightly different from that of one or two of the other Amendments. We should like to consider what we might wish to move or not to move at the Report stage, I do not move this Amendment now, but reserve my right to take action on the Report stage.
6.34 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 14, as amended, shall be agreed to?
LORD ARCHIBALD: There is a point to which I would direct the noble anti learned Viscount's attention, though I have not put down an Amendment dealing with it. I should like him to give his attention to the point before the next stage of the Bill. If necessary, I may put

1167
down an Amendment for that stage. The point to some extent arises from problems that are being discussed in connection with sporting events, but it is not confined to them. It arises out of the fact that increasingly we are likely to have regional programmes, particularly in the case of the I.T.A., when the programme contractors are serving special regions. It is possible that there will be, let us say, a contractor for Wales or Scotland, who wants to put on a programme for that area only and who makes arrangements either with the author of a story or with the writer of a play for a limited licence for that given area; and a lower fee would then be paid than if the programme were being put on on a national basis. It may be that the author or the dramatist is willing to have it put on in Wales or Scotland in advance of a big London presentation, and gives a limited licence for that area only. Now there are in existence—and I believe they are likely to increase their activity—broadcast relay services, which will also be relaying television programmes. Unless there is some provision to limit the activities of the relay services the programme contractor himself may be in the unfortunate position that his limited licence is violated by the relay services "piping" the programme out of the region for which the licence has been given and into a region for which no licence has been given. That is a point which I think might be met by some slight addition to subsection (3) of this clause.
There is another aspect, which I am not sure can be dealt with by copyright, that needs consideration; that is the possibility of a relay service acting in the other way and "piping" a programme into a contractor's area in such a way that it would work harmfully in respect of the work which the contractor is trying to do. I think I am right in saying that when the Television Bill was under consideration, the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor advanced as one of the supreme arguments for regional contractors that it would be possible for them, if so minded, to help to build up what one might call regional culture. The programme contractor might be prepared to set aside a particular time for a programme which he knew it would take a long time to build up in popularity. He might think that, because of its cultural
1168
aspect, it was worth "plugging" over a long period. But if he is subject to the competition of an ephemeral but attractive programme from another region which is being "piped" in just at that time, all his efforts will be wasted. These are two aspects of the same problem, and I think they are well worth looking at. I trust that the Lord Chancellor will agree that they may be given consideration before the next stage of the Bill is reached.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am very grateful to the noble Lord for putting forward these most interesting aspects of an important point. I will certainly look at them. I must confess—though I suppose one ought never to confess one's lack of foresight—that I personally had not thought of them, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for putting them into my mind.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15 [Copyright in published editions of works]:
6.37 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 15, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: This is another clause in which the Bill is inventing a new right of copyright that has never existed before. In this case, it is copyright in what is called an edition of a literary, dramatic or musical work —by which I understand it is intended to refer to the actual typescript in which the work is printed. Not only is this creating a new form of copyright which has never existed before, but it is also creating the copyright retrospectively because the provisions of this clause will apply to every edition of such a work which has been published within the last twenty-five years. It is therefore giving to the persons who originally printed these works a right of property which they never expected to have. If it had been confined to the future it might have been more defensible. But it is, I think, on the face of it, retrospective in its effect.
I imagine that the reason for creating this new right of copyright is that there has been brought into use in recent years a process which I believe is technically known as "offset printing," by which it is possible to photograph the printed pages of a book or piece of music and thereby produce a new edition which resembles, in facsimile, the original. This

1169
is a new art which has been developed, and it has attained, I believe, a considerable degree of perfection. It may be that there is something to be said for giving the printer a copyright for the future, but I am unable to see why there should be any right of this kind with regard to a book published many years ago, issues of which have become completely exhausted, and out of which the printer has made all the profit he ever expected to make.
It does not appear to be reasonable that industrial progress should be handicapped in this fashion. If we go on in this way, the next step will be that should somebody invent a new method of setting type at half the cost of the existing methods of doing it, there will be a proposal that printers of books should have sortie kind of protection against that. This is something which is quite outside the sphere of copyright. It has nothing to do with protecting the skill and labour of an individual involved in creating some new work of literature and art. It is a purely industrial question and it ought to be left to be settled by the ordinary process of commerce and should not have been in this Bill at all.
LORD MANCROFT: That is that! Now we know what the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, thinks of this clause. The clause does not appear to me to be very controversial, as there are no Amendments put down to it. This new clause is intended to implement the recommendations of the Copyright Committee set out in paragraphs 308 to 310 of their Report. This includes protection against the copying of published works by means of photographic process. The Publishers' Association raised this question with the Copyright Committee and suggested that there was a general risk that publishers might find their typographical layout being copied by other unscrupulous publishers without the latter going through the laborious and expensive method of typesetting and other technical processes, which I am afraid are beyond my comprehension but which are essential to the preparation of original editions. That is the reason for the inclusion of this provision, and I think it is a fair one. If it is considered outside the scope of the Bill in the very purest conception of the law of copyright, I think the noble Lord must forgive us because it seems to fulfil
1170
the needs of all concerned, and the Publishers' Association asked for it. I shall look more carefully at the technical points which the noble Lord has made and which I am afraid are above my comprehension at the moment; but I consider that the clause is a useful and generally acceptable provision.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clause 16 [Supplementary provisions for purposes of Part II]:
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (6), after ("film") to insert ",broadcast." The noble Lord said: This is a small point. If the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, will look at this subsection, he will see that it reads:
"Where by virtue of this Part of this Act copyright subsists any sound recording, cinematograph film or otter subject-matter,…"
Surely the noble Lord intends to include a broadcast in that, as it is now a matter of copyright, and does not intend that to be swept up in "other subject-matter." Surely the inclusion of broadcast makes the subsection clearer. That is the object I have in moving this Amendment. It may prevent trouble later on. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 32, after ("film") insert ", broadcast").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD MANCROFT: When I first looked at this subsection, I did not have much doubt about what it meant. If the noble Lord thinks there is an ambiguity, no doubt others may think there is one, and I am prepared to accept the Amendment.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: It is very kind of the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17 [Action by owner of copyright for infringement]:
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH moved to add to the clause:
"(8) No action for infringement of copyright shall be undertaken where it is proved to the satisfaction of the court that the sound recording has been used solely for educational or recreational purposes, without commercial advantage thereby being secured."
The noble Viscount said: The clause to which my Amendment refers provides for powers and procedures in regard to action by the owners of copyright against

1171
infringement. I am bound to say that my Amendment slipped up somewhere in the first two lines. The words "be undertaken" should read "succeed." My experiences with youth clubs, guilds and educational classes in the large Co-operative Movement have led me to put down this Amendment. The Government have come down on the side of giving copyright to gramophone records and films. There is certainly going to be a mass of litigation arising out of this Bill and, much as I dislike the Bill as a whole, I think it would help greatly in its administration if the bodies to which I refer in my Amendment were clear about their position. After listening to the explanatory speeches we have had from noble Lords opposite with regard to Clause 14, I am rather horrified at the moment at the amount of litigation which is likely to arise. It seems to me that there is unlimited opportunity for litigation and for a large employment of counsel in cases before the tribunal itself. Here is a plain and straight issue which I think should appeal to the noble and learned Viscount as being likely to assist the Bench in doing their work. Obviously there will be a great deal of legal expenses thrown upon these non-profit-making educational and recreational bodies. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 8, at end insert the said subsection.—(Viscount Alexander of Hillsborough).
LORD SOM̃ERS: I think it is highly probable that I am the only representative in your Lordships' House of that downtrodden section of the community, the composers. While I entirely agree with the noble Viscount on the question of educational purposes, I must say that the composer's work is not particularly lucrative. I hardly think anybody can make a living by it and I think it a little unfair to include "recreational" in the Amendment, because if youth clubs, and organisations of that sort wish to use a composer's music, surely it is only fair that they should pay for it. Educationally I entirely agree with him. Obviously, it is a good thing that young people should be taught something about good music—if we can say that our music is good, and I think we can—but otherwise I think it is unfair to expect a composer to produce music and then get nothing in return for it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Before the noble Lord opposite replies, may I say that my object in putting forward this Amendment is not to prevent a performing right fee, which is normally due now to a composer or author, from being paid where appropriate, but to prevent the kind of bodies I am referring to from being pursued for royalties on gramophone records. That is my point. If my Amendment does not properly meet that, perhaps the Government, if they accept it in principle, will help with it on the Report stage.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I cannot go so far as to say I accept it in principle, but I will consider this aspect with the other aspects of the educational matters. It is rather difficult to see at the moment what I can accept until we have had a chance to consider, in the light of the speeches made in the House, the whole of the educational problems. I had the same point as the noble Lord. Lord Som̃ers. I was not quite sure how far the noble Viscount wanted to go between the owner of the copyright in the sound recording and the author's basic rights. I am grateful that the noble Lord has introduced that point. I should also need to have a further and more detailed look at the cases of recreational purposes. I assure the noble Viscount that I will consider this aspect with the others and bring my views on the whole matter before the House on the Report stage.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I am much obliged and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clause 18 [Rights of owner of copyright in respect of infringing copies, etc.]:
LORD MANCROFT: This Amendment and the next are nothing more than drafting Amendments. They are required to avoid an ambiguity which arises from the conception, adopted in the Bill, that copyright subsists in what is really an abstraction: that is, cinematograph films. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 2, after ("means") insert ("the original or").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: This, also, is purely drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 4, leave out ("a reproduction, record or copy") and insert ("an article")—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: As the Amendments, Nos. 97 to 102, hang together may I ask the noble Lord whether it is his intention to accept them?
LORD MANCROFT: No.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Then as we may have some discussion on
1174
them and we have an arrangement to adjourn at seven o'clock—it is five minutes to seven now and I know the noble and learned Viscount has had a heavy day and so have I—perhaps we could commence with those Amendments at another time.
LORD MANCROFT: I beg to move that the House do row resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(Lord Marcroft.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.
House adjourned at six minutes before seven o'clock.