Sitting of 7 July 1954

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Residential Subscribers (Changes of Address)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if, in view of the increased availability of all kinds of telephone equipment, he will take steps to ensure that all persons moving into a house where there is an existing line shall be permitted to retain the telephone if they so require; if he will also take steps to provide telephones for all present subscribers who move to a new residence; and if he will make a statement.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans): A removing residential subscriber is given priority over a new residential application, but not over a business applicant. When anyone moves to a house where a telephone already exists, he is allowed to keep it save in exceptional circumstances.
    Mr. Gower: While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him, with reference to his last sentence, to bear in mind that when a person is obliged to move to a new residence where there is no telephone he can understand the need for waiting for one, but that if there is a telephone there it is difficult for him to understand the need to dismantle it and take it away and to put him on some waiting list and to keep him waiting for a considerable time? Will my hon. Friend also bear in mind how much this
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    feeling is aggravated in the case of a person who has been a subscriber at another address for many years?
    Mr. Gammans: There has been a change in policy. In all but the most exceptional circumstances, when a person goes to a new house where there is a telephone he is now allowed to keep it.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Do I understand from that announcement that if there is a shortage of exchange equipment the rule is abrogated, or is it still carried out? Where there is a shortage of exchange equipment does the right to the telephone pass to the newcomer?
    Mr. Gammans: There is no hard and fast rule. The new rule is that if there is a telephone the newcomer may keep it, but in exceptional circumstances, where, for instance, there is a very long waiting list, the telephone would have to be taken away.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Does the rule mean that a subscriber moving to a new address will have a preferential right in regard to the installation of a telephone? If that is so, would the hon. Gentleman look again at the cases I have put to him for so many months?
    Mr. Gammans: What I said was that if there is a telephone in the house to which a person goes he is normally allowed to keep it.

    Leyton
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Assistant Postmaster-General how many applicants for telephones have had these installed in Leyton during the past 12 months; and how many are still awaiting installation.
    Mr. Gammans: Five hundred and eighty-nine telephones were connected in the last 12 months, and 1,369 are outstanding.
    Mr. Sorensen: Could the Assistant Postmaster-General say how long applicants now have to wait before they are likely to get an installation?
    Mr. Gammans: There is no definite time, but I am sure the hon. Member will be pleased to know that since he last put down a Question to me in May we have effected a reduction of the waiting list in his constituency of no fewer than 294.

    Northern Ireland
    Captain Orrasked the Assistant Postmaster-General the number of applications for telephones outstanding in Northern Ireland; how many new applications have been made and how many telephones provided since 1st January, 1953; and what proportion of the total demand in Northern Ireland was met, as compared with the rest of the country.
    Mr. Gammans: Eight thousand and ninety-nine applications are outstanding. Nine thousand six hundred and twenty- four telephones have been supplied since 1st January, 1953, and 9,835 new applications received. Taking these into account 54 per cent. of the total effective demand was met in Northern Ireland and about 59 per cent. in the rest of the country.
    Captain Orr: Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a very marked improvement? Can he say whether or not the extra capital which he has allocated is now making up the leeway, and how long he reckons it will be before the provision of telephones there compares favourably with the rest of the Kingdom?
    Mr. Gammans: I cannot give a definite time when we shall catch up, but as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, there has been quite a considerable increase in the allocation of capital to Northern Ireland because it was getting a little behind as compared with the rest of the country.
    Mr. Hobson: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the ban on the building of new telephone exchanges by the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been removed?
    Mr. Gammans: Oh, yes. Quite a number of new telephone exchanges are going up all over the country.

    Political Broadcast (Telephone Delays)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will make a statement on the inconvenience and delay caused to telephone users as a consequence of a television programme organised by the Conservative Central Office on Thursday, 1st July; and what steps are being taken to prevent a repetition.
    Mr. Haleasked the Assistant Post- master-General the reason for the almost complete hold up of trunk line telephone
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    services from many principal towns in the United Kingdom and London at about 8.45 on the evening of Thursday, 1st July, 1954; and what steps he proposes to prevent similar breakdowns in an essential public service.
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Assistant Postmaster-General what prior arrangements were made by his Department to cope with the additional burden imposed on the telephone services by the party political television broadcast last Thursday.
    Mr. Gammans: My noble Friend always regrets any inconvenience which may be caused to telephone users. In this particular case, the number of calls forecast by the Conservative Central Office was 200; this number could have been met without any difficulty. The actual number of calls was at least 10,000 and may have been as high as 20,000; this caused delay mainly for about 15 minutes, especially on some trunk circuits.
    It is the duty of the Post Office to give the best possible service our equipment will permit, but the practical difficulties of carrying such a concentration of traffic and the inconvenience to the public would, I hope, enable us to dissuade anyone contemplating repeating the experiment in this particular form.
    Mr. Hale: Was it not obvious that there would be thousands of people ringing up complaining about high rents, high prices and other things, and that something must be done about it? May I make one suggestion, that, in view of the dangers and difficulties which for centuries have attended the practice of allowing Tory Ministers to speak in public, he should consider advising in the next television programme the presentation of, say, the Minister of Works as a silent film?
    Mr. R. Harris: Can my hon. Friend say if the Post Office had been put in similar embarrassment in the time of any Labour Party broadcast?
    Mr. Gammans: The only parallel case we have had was an offer from Radio Luxembourg with regard to give-away programmes, and that completely jammed the Mayfair telephone service.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Was it consistent with the proper discharge of his duties for the Postmaster-General to be junketing with the smart-alec tacticians of the Tory Party Headquarters while the telephone service was being submerged, and would it not have been better if he had been at the exchange helping out the unfortunate operators?
    Mr. Burden: Has the Assistant Postmaster-General any power to stop any person from advertising their telephone number and offering to pay the reversed charge? Might there not possibly be a slight element of sour grapes in these complaints
    Mr. Gammans: We have no power to prevent anybody ringing up any particular number.
    Mr. Driberg: In view of the Radio Luxembourg precedent to which the hon. Gentleman called attention this afternoon, why was the Post Office so naive as to accept without question the Conservative Central Office estimate of only 200 calls, if the nature of the programme was disclosed to them? Is this the result of political pressure through the hon. Gentleman himself?
    Mr. Gammans: I think that is a somewhat unworthy imputation.
    Mr. Driberg: To an unworthy Minister.
    Mr. Gammans: The Conservative Central Office informed us that there was to be a broadcast which would make demands on the telephone exchange. Strictly speaking, they need not have done so. They estimated that it would cause 200 telephone calls. I think that they were wrong in their estimate.
    Mr. Longden: Can the Assistant Postmaster-General say whether on this occasion any local calls were dislocated?
    Mr. Gammans: No. It had hardly any effect on local calls, but it had an effect on the trunk services for about 15 minutes.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Can the Assistant Postmaster-General say what good purpose is served by 20,000 members of the British public ringing up the Conservative Central Office for answers to questions when Tory Ministers at that Box cannot answer simple questions at 2.30 in the afternoon?
    Mr. H. Morrison: Would not perhaps the best solution of this serious inconvenience to the public be for the hon. Gentleman, through channels with which he is very familiar, to make representation to the Conservative Central Office that they might consider the convenience of their fellow citizens and not make these schemes, which have the purpose of stopping other people from using the telephone? I understand that the purpose is to get votes. Will he put it to them that they may lose votes by this anti-social practice?
    Mr. Gammans: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman heard my original answer. I pointed out the practical difficulties of such an operation and the impossibility of it fulfilling its purpose in the sense of people getting through which would, I should have thought, deter the promoters of such a scheme from repeating it in its present form.
    Lord John Hope: Is it not gratifying that this most successful experiment has received so much publicity today from hon. Members opposite?
    Mr. Driberg: The hon. Gentleman did not answer my supplementary question. Can he say why the Post Office expert advisers accepted uncritically the estimate of 200 calls, in view of the precedent which he has quoted of Radio Luxembourg?
    Mr. Gammans: The Conservative Central Office told the Post Office that it was going to do a party political broadcast, which would entail a certain amount of telephoning. The Conservative Central Office was under no obligation whatever to tell that to the Post Office, but they did so. Therefore, the Post Office accepted the estimate of the traffic that the broadcast would entail.
    Mr. Driberg: In view of the most unsatisfactory nature of the replies in this matter, I shall endeavour on the Adjournment to explore further this public nuisance.

  POST OFFICE

    Crown Office, North Chingford
    Mr. Finlayasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will now sanction the establishment of a Crown post office in North Chingford.
    Mr. Gammans: My noble Friend would like to be able to authorise a new building now, but while the need for strict economy continues he regrets that he must give priority to more urgent cases. I am sorry that our search for alternative premises offering better accommodation than that available at Station Road has not been successful.
    Mr. Finlay: Is my hon. Friend aware that for three years his Department has condemned the existing premises as sub-Crown standard, and as they are in the middle of an expanded population, will he do all he can to accelerate the provision of proper Crown offices?
    Mr. Gammans: I am afraid that a number of our post offices are sub-Crown office standard. I only wish I could accede to my hon. Friend's wishes, but there are some offices that are worse than that of which he is speaking, and, therefore, I am afraid we have to give priority to the others.
    Mr. Hale: What is a Crown post office? In view of the rise in the cost of living, would it be possible to have half-crown post offices?

    Printed Papers (Reduced Postage Rate)
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he is aware that many post offices charge a minimum postage rate of 1½d. for packets marked "Printed Papers—Reduced Rate"; and whether he will take steps to ensure that the correct charge of 1d. for the first 2 oz. is made known to Post Office officials, clerks and the general public.
    Mr. Gammans: I am sorry to learn that in some instances incorrect information has been given in this matter, and all counter officers are being reminded of the reduced rate.
    Mr. Warbey: Can the hon. Gentleman say when that reminder was given to them? Is he aware that I hold in my hand a publication weighing less than 2 oz., marked correctly "Printed Paper—Reduced Rate," and that in the past week a charge of 1½d. has been demanded in no fewer than five London Crown post offices, and that an inquiry at the General Post Office headquarters also elicited a request for a minimum payment of 1½d.?
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    Will the hon. Gentleman see that the fact is made known to the general public and to his staff that we still have a form of 1d. post in this country?
    Mr. Gammans: I am grateful to the hon. Member for having pointed this matter out to me. We have issued a notice, in the ordinary weekly circular which goes out today, to all post offices throughout the Kingdom.

    Christ Church Green, Victoria Street
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Assistant Postmaster-General, in connection with his proposal to build a new post office on the site of the bombed church at Christ Church Green, Victoria Street, S.W.1, whether he will preserve the footpath connecting Caxton Street and Victoria Street; and if, in view of the car parking problems in Caxton Street and adjoining thoroughfares, he will provide for a car park adjacent to the new post office for the use of General Post Office vehicles, and, on a fee-paying basis, for motor cars owned by persons working in nearby business premises.
    Mr. Gammans: The footpath is outside the site the Post Office is buying. The whole site will be used for a telephone exchange, a public post office, and a small yard to accommodate such post office vehicles as may call. We have considered the possibility of an underground garage for general public use, but I regret that the basement and sub-basement must be used to lead in telephone cables and for other Post Office purposes.
    Mr. Nabarro: Does my hon. Friend anticipate that the acute traffic congestion which already exists in the streets adjoining the site is likely to be made any worse by the erection of this large Government building?
    Mr. Gammans: No. We shall not make it any better but we shall not make it any worse.
    Mr. Hastings: How high is this building to be?
    Mr. Gammans: I should require notice of that question. Off hand, I think it is to be a three-storey building.
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he will

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    furnish the hon. Members for Croydon, East and Kidderminster with a plan of the proposed new post office on the site of the bombed church at Christ Church Green, Victoria Street, S.W.1, showing arrangements for incoming and outgoing persons and vehicles, and proposals for dealing with General Post Office vehicles in congested thoroughfares.
    Mr. Gammans: I will gladly send copies of the plans to the hon. Members when they have been agreed. Meantime, I can say that the public entrances will be on Broadway and that, as the few Post Office vehicles calling at the building will use a yard entrance in Caxton Street, they will not need to park in the streets.
    Mr. Nabarro: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that Caxton Hall is rather a popular spot for matrimonial purposes? There is often a complete blockage of traffic in Caxton Street, and is it not a fact that this post office, notwithstanding the yard, will make it nearly impossible for persons intending matrimonial ventures to get in or out of Caxton Hall?
    Mr. Gammans: I hope that it will never be a charge made against the Post Office that we prevent people from getting married. There will be a yard into which Post Office vehicles using the building can go.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Has my hon. Friend received representations from either the Minister of Transport or any other Government authority to make sure that the proposed new building does not extend as near to the public roadway and pavement as its predecessor? It is highly desirable that all buildings in the Metropolitan area today should be withdrawn a certain distance from the footpath and roadway.
    Mr. Gammans: Speaking from memory, I think we have consulted the Ministry of Transport, but if my hon. Friend wants a definite reply perhaps he will put down a Question.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Will the Assistant Postmaster-General take great care to ensure that nothing done on this site will adversely affect the interests of the people of Kidderminster?
    Mr. Nabarro—
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Sorensen.
    Mr. Nabarro: I rose to ask a further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: I think we have had enough of that Question. We must get on.

    Sub-Office, Enfield
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Assistant Postmaster-General what economies it is anticipated will result from the closure of the sub-post office, Green Street, Enfield, and the transfer of its business to the Crown office in Hertford Road.
    Mr. Gammans: Since writing to the hon. Member on this subject on 31st May, I have been reviewing the whole of the circumstances and have decided that, when the new Crown office in Hertford Road is opened, the sub-post office at Green Street will be retained for the time being.
    Mr. Davies: May I thank the Assistant Postmaster-General for his answer?

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    V.H.F. Stations
    Sir H. Roperasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he will make a statement about the proposals of the British Broadcasting Corporation for the development of very high frequency broadcasting, and particularly with regard to a very high frequency service for Cornwall.
    Mr. G. Robertsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General approximately when very high frequency broadcasting will be practicable as a solution of the difficulty of receiving British Broadcasting Corporation programmes in various parts of the United Kingdom, particularly Wales.
    Mr. Gammans: My noble Friend hopes to make a statement shortly about the development of very high frequency broadcasting.
    Sir H. Roper: Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that when that statement is made Cornwall will be given a high priority for the very high frequency service? Can he also say whether, when that service is brought into being, it will give full coverage for Cornwall?
    Mr. Gammans: I am afraid I cannot disclose now where the new stations are

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    to be located, but I think it will be possible for my noble Friend to make a statement before the House rises.
    Mr. G. Roberts: In view of the fact that on his own admission very high frequency modulation is still a long-term prospect, and that in Wales the position is deteriorating month by month, may I once more ask the Assistant Postmaster-General to treat the Welsh position as a special case, requiring special action?
    Mr. Gammans: I would not agree that it is a long-term proposition. My noble Friend hopes to make a statement shortly on the stations for very high frequency broadcasting.
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will make a statement with regard to the installation of three new very high frequency transmitters at the Pontop Pike station and, in particular, on the improvement in reception of the Scottish Regional programme which this is expected to effect in Berwickshire.
    Mr. Gammans: My noble Friend hopes to make a statement shortly about the development of very high frequency broadcasting. I should add, however, that any very high frequency service from Pontop Pike would not carry the Scottish Regional service; such a service is not transmitted by that station at the present time.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: Is there any station from which we can look forward to an improvement in the Scottish Regional Service?
    Mr. Gammans: I think that my hon. and gallant Friend had better wait until the general statement on V.H.F. transmitters is made by my noble Friend.
    Captain Orr: Can my hon. Friend say whether a decision has been finally taken as to the form of modulation to be used?
    Mr. Gammans: Yes—frequency modulation.

    Commercial Television Stations (Programme Contractors)
    Dr. Kingasked the Assistant Postmaster-General what advice the Government will give to the proposed Independent Television Authority on the
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    number of programme companies to be allocated to each commercial television station.
    Mr. Gammans: The hon. Member is anticipating events. The I.T.A. will undoubtedly wish to have discussions on this subject with my noble Friend, but under the Bill it will be for the Authority to conduct negotiations with potential programme contractors and to reach its own decision in the matter.
    Dr. King: As the Government profess to be opposed to monopoly, would not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important that we should not set up a monopoly for each new television programme unit?
    Mr. Gammans: If the hon. Member reads Clause 5 (2) of the Television Bill, he will see the charge laid upon the Authority in that particular connection.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Surely the Government have now made up their mind what advice they will give to the I.T.A.? Is there to be one programme contractor at one station or not?
    Mr. Gammans: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government have not made up their mind.

    B.B.C. Development Plan
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General the date on which the British Broadcasting Corporation submitted its 10-year development plan to the Government.
    Mr. Gammans: April, 1953, but I should make it clear that it was not submitted for specific approval but as an outline of the Corporation's long-term plans.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: As the Government have given many repeated assurances about not hamstringing the B.B.C., why has it taken all this time to give consent for this programme.
    Mr. Gammans: Because the B.B.C. has an enormous programme development on hand. In any case, it would not be able to start a second programme until 1957, even if it were approved.
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General when a decision can be expected from the Government as

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    to the date on which the British Broadcasting Corporation can be permitted to start on its television expansion programme.
    Mr. Gammans: The British Broadcasting Corporation is already fully engaged on the substantial expansion of its television service in Band I. As regards a second B.B.C. programme, in Band III, I cannot at present add to my reply to the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) on 30th June.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Surely the B.B.C. has made its application, the matter was fixed, as I thought, at the Stockholm Conference, after the hon. Gentleman took office, and I should have thought that it should have been given permission long before this. How long are the Government to take even yet to let the B.B.C. start on a second programme?
    Mr. Gammans: The B.B.C. is at present developing stations at Aberdeen, Belfast, the Isle of Wight, Plymouth, Pontop Pike, Crystal Palace, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, Dover, Inverness, Londonderry, Towyn and Carlisle. I would suggest that the B.B.C. has quite enough on at the moment.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Do I now understand that the hon. Gentleman takes it upon himself to decide how much the B.B.C. can tackle? It has made application for these frequencies. When are the Government going to give the B.B.C. an answer?
    Mr. Gammans: All the B.B.C. has done is to say that it would like certain frequencies reserved for it if and when the Government are prepared to sanction a second programme.

    Frequencies
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General how far the British Broadcasting Corporation will be allowed to use the frequencies reserved for commercial television in areas in which the Independent Television Authority is not expected to operate.
    Mr. Gammans: I have taken note of the point, but it is too soon to make any statement.

    Band III (Test Transmissions)
    Mr. Hobsonasked the Assistant Postmaster-General how soon actual test transmissions on Band III will provide pictures or test patterns so as to allow manufacturers to proceed with the production of reliable receivers.
    Mr. Gammans: I understand that several manufacturers are already in production of Band III television receivers. Apart from the tests referred to in my reply to the hon. Member of 30th June last, I have little doubt that the carrying out of further tests will be one of the first responsibilities of the Independent Television Authority.
    Mr. Hobson: Does the hon. Gentleman's reply mean that actual sets are going into production to receive signals in the Band III channels allocated to the I.T.A. without provision being made for the companies to test these transmissions?
    Mr. Gammans: I do not know what steps the companies who make these sets have taken before putting them on the market. Five firms have been granted experimental facilities, and I believe that they are producing the sets now.

    Independent Television Authority Transmitters (Links)
    Mr. Hobsonasked the Assistant Postmaster-General (1) what arrangements the Post Office are making to provide co-axial cables or radio links between the main stations of the proposed Independent Television Authority network;
    (2) how long it will take to complete the cable or links to allow the same programmes to be broadcast from all Independent Television Authority stations.
    Mr. Gammans: No decision has yet been reached on the actual sites of the I.T.A. transmitters, but on the assumption that they will be near the existing B.B.C. transmitters in London, the Midlands and Lancashire, the Post Office is satisfied that the links will be ready by the time the I.T.A. stations are completed. The link between London and the Midlands will probably be by radio, and from the Midlands to Lancashire by spare co-axial cable.
    Mr. Hobson: Can the Assistant Postmaster-General say, with regard to the cost of running these co-axial cables which are to be installed by the Post Office, whether the same terms will be charged to the I.T.A. as are already charged to the B.B.C.?
    Mr. Gammans: They will certainly be computed on the same basis.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Helicopter Pilots
    Mr. Doddsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what provision is being made to increase the numbers of helicopter pilots.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): Arrangements have been made to ensure that our plans for increasing the Royal Air Force's helicopter strength are matched by a corresponding output of qualified pilots. Helicopter pilots will continue to be trained under civil contract and, in addition, a small Royal Air Force training unit will shortly be set up.
    Mr. Dodds: As it is inevitable that the Army will be requiring many helicopters in the immediate future, will the hon. Gentleman state whether his Department is making preparations for the necessary helicopter pilots?
    Mr. Ward: As I told the hon. Member on 19th May, we have outstanding orders for about 100 helicopters, of which about a half should be delivered by the middle of next year. We shall, of course, train pilots to keep pace with these deliveries.

    Low Flying Aircraft (Church Services)
    Major Sir R. Conantasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he will give instructions to restrict as far as practicable the low flying of aircraft on Sundays during the hours when church services are normally held.
    Mr. Ward: Some training at weekends is inevitable, particularly for the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and the Royal Observer Corps, but every effort is made to restrict low flying during the normal hours of church services on Sundays.
    Sir R. Conant: Can my hon. Friend pass on any instructions or suggestions which he may send out to our Allies in the United States and Canadian Air Forces?
    Mr. Ward: Yes, Sir. Their rules about low flying on Sundays are the same as ours.

    Requisitioned Properties
    Mr. Gowerasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how many properties are still held under requisition by his Department; if he will order a new investigation into the circumstances of each case; and if he will direct that prior consideration be given to the original owner, or owners, whenever a sale is contemplated.
    Mr. Ward: Thirty-four buildings and 36,500 acres of land are still held on requisition by the Air Ministry. These requisitions are kept under constant review and we hope to eliminate them completely within the next few years. Since requisitioning does not affect ownership, the last part of the Question does not arise.
    Mr. Gower: In view of the size of the figure relating to the amount of land that is held, can my hon. Friend say whether any progress has been made in de-requisitioning? Secondly, will he pay particular attention to cases like that of Tarrant Rushton Airfield, owned by Commander Marten, on which it is alleged that my hon. Friend proposes to use compulsory powers merely to confirm a letting to a private company? Will he take into account the general public feeling against the principle of this kind of thing?
    Mr. Ward: The Question deals with de-requisition. Since the war we have reduced the number of premises held on requisition from about 6,000 down to 34, and the amount of land from 250,000 acres to 36,500 acres.

    National Service Men (Prison Duties)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether instructions have now been issued that National Service men shall not be employed on prison duties at Royal Air Force detention units.
    Mr. Ward: No, Sir. The basis of selection will be a man's aptitude and not the type of engagement on which he happens to be serving. As, however, we are in general choosing older men with previous experience of this type of work, it will be unusual for National Service men to be employed.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that his reply will be received with some satisfaction, because the nasty affair at Wahnerheide has shown quite clearly that it was undesirable that National Service men should be employed on this kind of duty?

  ROADS

    London—Norwich (Harlow Diversion)
    Mr. Finlayasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in view of the growth of the new town of Harlow along the A.11, London to Norwich trunk road, and the additional congestion and consequential danger to road traffic and pedestrians, he will now sanction the proposed diversion of this road at Potter Street.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Hugh Molson): My right hon. Friend expects to publish soon a draft Order under the Trunk Roads Act, 1946, for the purpose of fixing the line of the diversion of the trunk road at Potter Street. I regret that I cannot at present forecast when it will be possible to put the construction of the diversion in hand.
    Mr. Finlay: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that if an entirely new town of 80,000 inhabitants is built along this road, on which there is already a serious accident record, this diversion ought to be accelerated if things are not to go from bad to worse?
    Mr. Molson: My predecessor received a deputation led by my hon. Friend on 17th June last year, when he made it plain that it was not possible for us to give any high degree of priority to this scheme.

    Barton Bridge, Eccles
    Mr. Proctorasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will engage a reputable firm of engineers to
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    report upon Barton Bridge, Eccles, with special reference to the construction of a footpath outside the present structure of the bridge, on the side of the bridge or seven feet above the present footpaths.
    Mr. Molson: No, Sir. As has been explained to the hon. Member, this is a private bridge and my right hon. Friend has no power to intervene in its operation or to make a Road Fund grant for it.
    Mr. Proctor: Does the Minister realise that in giving such a low priority to the Barton Bridge—the new bridge and the improvement of the old—he and his advisers have made a big mistake? Does he realise that the statement made to the National Production Advisory Council and now passed on to the T.U.C.—which states that:
    "The Minister acknowledges the importance of this project but owing to the fact that there are many more schemes which are more urgently needed, there is little prospect of the Barton Bridge scheme, which would cost £2 million, being considered for a considerable number of years."
    —will cause great resentment over a wide area in Lancashire? Are we to conclude that in the Ministry of Transport the interests of working men and industry take second place to the interests of pleasure motoring?
    Mr. Molson: No, Sir. As was made quite plain in my right hon. Friend's statement on 8th December last year, very high priority is given to industrial areas and Lancashire has received its fair allocation out of the present programme.
    Mr. Proctorasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the responsibilities of his Department regarding the safety arrangements at Barton Swing Bridge, Eccles; and what are the responsibilities falling on the Manchester Ship Canal Company regarding the safety of pedestrians crossing the bridge.
    Mr. Molson: My Department has no direct responsibility for safety arrangements at Barton Swing Bridge. Although there is no specific provision on the matter in the Manchester Ship Canal Act, 1885, I am advised that the Manchester Ship Canal Company might be held to have a measure of responsibility for the safety of pedestrians crossing the bridge, in so far as the Act requires the company to maintain the bridge and in so far as the

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    company are at common law under a duty to exercise care in the opening of the bridge so as not to endanger pedestrians using it.
    Mr. Proctor: Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to look into this whole matter and have an inquiry with representatives of the T.U.C. and industry on the whole project of Barton Bridge and the transport arrangements there, which are causing grave dislocation to workers, industrialists and the general community?
    Mr. Molson: The hon. Member has brought this matter specially to the attention of the Department. He persuaded my right hon. Friend to visit the bridge himself, and he can be assured that we have the greatest sympathy with the representations that he is making and that we will include Barton Bridge in the programme as soon as it is possible to do so.

    Old Shoreham Bridge
    Captain Kerbyasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many accidents to persons and vehicles have occurred since 1st November, 1951, on the South Coast trunk road TR37-A27, where it passes over the Old Shoreham Bridge, and its traffic is subjected to toll imposition.
    The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): Four, Sir, all during the hours of darkness and one only resulting in serious injury.
    Captain Kerbyasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in his capacity as the responsible highway authority for the South Coast trunk road, TR37-A27, and, in view of the fact that the present toll imposition is 6d. for two journeys on the same day, he will now consult with the British Transport Commission and seek agreement to the following concession, namely, that the 6d, toll on the Old Shoreham Bridge should, in future, permit of two journeys without regard to date.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The British Transport Commission are not prepared to suffer the appreciable loss of revenue which the adoption of this suggestion would involve. The level of charges to be made for the use of this bridge is a matter for the Commission to determine.

    Queensferry
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is satisfied that the dredging operations which he has authorised in connection with the improvement of the ferry service at Queensferry are proceeding according to plan.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am informed by the British Transport Commission that the contractors are already on the site, but dredging has not yet started as it has to be phased in with the constructional work at the piers which has already started.

    Traffic Congestion, Jermyn Street
    Mr. Russellasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps he proposes to take to prevent congestion bringing traffic to a standstill in Jermyn Street, W.1, before the "no-waiting" regulations come into force at 11.30 a.m.
    Mr. Molson: The Commissioner of Police informs me that there are always police on duty in Jermyn Street before 11.30 a.m. We should not at present feel justified in making an exception here to the general rule that "no-waiting" regulations come into force at 11.30 a.m.
    Mr. Russell: Can my hon. Friend say what action is taken by the police when vehicles are parked on both sides of the road and two lines of traffic try to go where there is only room for one?
    Mr. Molson: The police take action in two ways. As far as possible they move on the traffic which is obstructing, and if they find there is a persistent obstruction taking place they warn the driver of the vehicle concerned.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: In view of the increasing congestion of London traffic, would it not be a good idea to make the hour at which no waiting is enforceable earlier, say, 10.30 in the morning?
    Mr. Molson: I said that at present we do not feel justified in altering the general rule in the case of "no-waiting" street, but it is intended, as a result of representations made by the Fire Brigade, to introduce "no waiting" at all in six streets in Soho where congestion is such as greatly to increase the danger of fire.

    Clyde Tunnel (Shields)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will now name the date for starting the Lint-house-Whiteinch Tunnel.
    Mr. Molson: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave him on 30th June.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the Minister aware that the answer is quite unsatisfactory and insufficient? Can he tell us why he is still holding up the ratification of permission to proceed now that he has the estimate? What prevents him from giving the Glasgow Corporation permission to proceed with the tunnel?
    Mr. Molson: My right hon. Friend intimated last week that he would not be in a position to make any further statement on this matter until he had discussed it with the Glasgow Corporation, and the hon. Member will not obtain any further information until my right hon. Friend has had that discussion.
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. Questions are put to the Minister in the House on matters for which the House is responsible financially to the extent of 75 per cent. Is it not right, therefore, that we should have an answer and that the answer should not be referred to an outside body?
    Mr. Speaker: The Minister said that he would give an answer and told the hon. Member that there was no information until then. The hon. Member asked a very long supplementary question.
    Mr. Rankin: The Minister previously told me that he would give an answer when he had the estimates from Glasgow, but now that he has them he still does not give an answer.
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.

    London Airport (Traffic)
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what estimates have been prepared of the additional road traffic which will be generated by the operation of London Airport at full scale.
    Mr. Molson: It has been estimated that in 1960, with the Airport in operation at full scale in peak hours, some 2,000
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    to 2,500 vehicles per hour will enter or leave the airport. About 1,600 vehicles will use the Bath Road, 1,200 to the east and 400 to the west of the Airport entrances. Actual counts made in 1951 showed 620 vehicles per peak hour, of which 390 used the Bath Road, 280 to the east and 110 to the west.
    Mr. Erroll: Can the Minister say what plans are therefore being made to improve the road approaches to this Airport?
    Mr. Molson: As I said in reply to a Question on 21st June, we believe that for the immediate future the Bath Road will be adequate to carry the additional traffic.
    Mr. Lindgren: Can the Minister say what progress has been made with the extension of tube railway facilities to give passengers access to the Airport and thus avoid road approaches?
    Mr. Molson: I could not say without notice.

    Leyton
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what modifications have been made in respect of a new main road running through the Borough of Leyton.
    Mr. Molson: The lines of the two trunk roads in Leyton are still under consideration, and I cannot yet say what modifications may be made.
    Mr. Sorensen: Am I to take it from that reply that some drastic modifications are to be made in the plan?
    Mr. Molson: The Leyton Borough Council is finding some difficulty at present in recruiting technical staff to carry out the necessary survey. That is what is delaying matters at the present time.

  TRANSPORT

    Passenger Charges Schemes (Objections)
    Mr. Holtasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will introduce legislation to amend Section 78 of the Transport Act, 1947, in order to ensure more effective publicity in connection with the lodging of objections with the Transport Tribunal to any new British Transport Commission (Passenger) Charges Scheme.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No, Sir. I think the present procedure is adequate.
    Mr. Holt: Is the Minister aware of the circumstances in which the objection of the London Passenger Association to the recent fares increase by the London Transport Board was not heard by the Tribunal? Does this not indicate that the publicity arrangements are not satisfactory? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider urging the Tribunal to improve them and, possibly, to use the same kind of arrangements as are used by licensing authorities in similar circumstances in the provinces?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The association concerned, whose late application was rejected by the Transport Tribunal, is, I think, well aware of the procedure, having lodged objections on previous occasions and having been heard. The requirements are laid down in the Transport Act, 1947, and the Transport Tribunal Rules, 1949, and, I think, are working quite smoothly.
    Mr. Holt: Would the Minister not agree that, in view of the fact that this transport undertaking has a monopoly, it is most important that everything is done to ensure that travellers have the fullest opportunity of making objections when fares increases are contemplated?
    Mr. Popplewell: Is the Minister aware that many of the public representations that are made to the Transport Tribunal are simply nonsense? Will he be behind the B.T.C. with a view to enabling the railways to have a square deal as far as their charges are concerned, in order that they may undertake capital development and provide decent wages and conditions for their employees? They are about the only section of people who are subject to so much public scrutiny before fares can be adjusted to meet increase in costs.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I shall be behind the bodies set up by the proper Acts.
    Mr. H. Morrison: Is the Minister aware that the London County Council is very effectively appearing before the tribunal on behalf of the travelling public and that there may be others as well? Would he agree that it would be unfortunate if the idea were spread abroad that the travelling public's case was not being heard by the Tribunal?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I think the travelling public's case is being heard and the Tribunal have made several suggestions.

    Scottish Airfields (Passengers and Freight)
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will give figures to show the increased use, both passenger and goods, made of East of Scotland airfields during the last six months, as compared with 1953; and what further expansion he anticipates in the immediate future.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. John Profumo): In the six months ending May, 1954, 62,300 passengers and 232 tons of freight were handled at aerodromes in the eastern half of Scotland. This compares with 56,800 passengers and 233 tons of freight in the six months ending May, 1953. So far as I can foresee, the annual increase of about 10 per cent. in passenger traffic over 1953 will continue into the immediate future.
    Mr. Rankin: Is not that a great tribute to a nationalised industry?
    Mr. Profumo: Anything which helps to increase the movements of civil aviation will always have tributes paid to it by my right hon. Friend.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Can my hon. Friend say how much of this traffic figure passes through the airport of Errol?
    Mr. Profumo: None, Sir.

    Requisitioned Properties
    Mr. Crouchasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many properties are still held under requisition by his Department; if he will order a new investigation into the circumstances of each case; and if he will take steps to ensure that the rights of the original owner, or owners, are safeguarded whenever a sale is contemplated.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Seventy-seven, of which 67 are bombed sites used temporarily as car parks which would otherwise be put to no useful purpose. These will be restored to their owners as soon as they obtain building licences. In addition, the Air Ministry holds on requisition on my behalf 70 properties used for aerodrome purposes and 57 small sites for

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    navigational aids. The position is under continual review so that these properties, if not to be purchased or leased, are returned as soon as possible to their owners or the requisitioning authority. I have no power to sell property held on requisition.
    Mr. Crouch: Will my right hon. Friend not relax his efforts to divest himself of these properties in spite of the fact that his Department is in a much more favourable position than some other Departments?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I keep a constant watch on this, but a large number of these properties are round about most important aerodromes which are used by the general public of the country.

    Smoke Pollution (Chalk Farm)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation why he has refused to receive a deputation from St. Pancras Borough Council, including the hon. Members for Holborn and St. Pancras, South, and for St. Pancras, North, to discuss the question of authorisation of additional capital required by the British Transport Commission to deal with smoke pollution at Chalk Farm.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am sorry about conditions at Chalk Farm. I know that the St. Pancras Public Health Committee have had a very full discussion of the problem with a senior railway officer and the British Transport Commission have promised to do all they can to reduce the smoke and grit. But what the council raised with me was the electrification of the whole railway system out of Euston. This is clearly a far wider question, and I do not think it would help for me to receive a deputation from them about this. But I would be very ready to meet the hon. Members concerned and discuss the problem with them.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it was arising out of a meeting with the British Railway representatives that the council were told that only major capital which the Minister could authorise would solve this intolerable nuisance at Chalk Farm, that a request for the deputation was then made, and will he not reconsider asking not only my hon. Friend and myself but representatives of the borough council as well to
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    see him and so try to redeem his earlier discourtesy in this matter?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: There is no discourtesy, but the question of the electrification of the whole of the former London, Midland and Scottish system is not one that can properly be discussed by the Minister with a local authority, however important. I am very ready to see the Members of Parliament concerned and explain the difficulties to them, also my constitutional position, and listen to what they have to say.

    Traffic Receipts
    Mr. D. Jonesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) if he will give the net traffic receipts for British Railways for the year 1953;
    (2) if he will give the net traffic receipts for British Road Services for the year 1953.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: These and other figures which, taken together, represent the financial results of the British Transport Commission for the year 1953 will be contained in the Commission's annual report which will be laid before the House as soon as it is printed. I do not think it would be right to extract isolated figures, such as the net traffic receipts of particular sections of the undertaking, in advance of the report and accounts as a whole.
    Mr. Jones: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when this report will be available to hon. Members for study?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The British Transport Commission informed me that, owing to its preoccupation with the railway re-organisation scheme and the merchandise charges scheme, it regretted that the report will be issued a little later this year than in the last few years. I hope that it will come along fairly soon.

    Passenger Service Vehicles (Private Hire)
    Mr. Slaterasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when he proposes to introduce legislation to amend the existing law, in view of the uncertainty which exists throughout the road passenger industry at the present time concerning the operation of passenger service vehicles on private hire work in consideration of the payment of separate fares.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I hope to introduce such legislation at the earliest opportunity that the Parliamentary time-table permits.

    Public Transport (Section 72 Prosecutions)
    Mr. Slaterasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will furnish particulars of prosecutions instigated by his Department during the last two years for alleged contraventions of the provision of Section 72 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, against companies owned or controlled by the British Transport Commission, companies owned or controlled by the British Electric Traction Company Limited, and other operators, respectively.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: One thousand and seventy-four prosecutions were undertaken by the licensing authorities for public service vehicles in the two years ended 31st March, 1954, for contraventions of Section 72 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. I am afraid it would not be possible to break down this total in the manner desired by the hon. Member without considerable research.

    Transport Commission (Pensions Scheme)
    Mr. Barberasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will now make a statement about the establishment of a pension scheme for wages grades employed by the British Transport Commission.
    Major Sir F. Markhamasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether the details of the new pension scheme for railway wage grades have yet been agreed by the British Transport Commission and the trade unions; and whether he will make the full scheme available to hon. Members at the earliest possible moment.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am very glad to inform the House that, following complete agreement between the British Transport Commission and the trade unions upon the terms of a pension scheme for male wages grades, I have made Regulations establishing this scheme as from 1st October next. These Regulations have been laid before Parliament today and copies will be available to hon. Members. The scheme provides a pension of 30s. a week at 65 after 40 years'
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    membership, with a further 10s. for certain senior grades. With permission, I will circulate a summary of the main provisions in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Barber: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will give great satisfaction to all those concerned?
    Mr. I. O. Thomas: Will the Minister take note of the fact that it is not until we get public ownership of the transport industry that it is possible to get a pensions scheme for wages grades?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I take notice of the fact that nothing happened in the six years of Socialist Government.
    Following is the Summary:
    The Scheme applies to British Transport Commission male wages grade staff in the service of British Railways, the Docks and Inland Waterways, the Hotels and Catering Services, the London Transport Executive, and at Headquarters.
    The Scheme, which commences on 1st October, 1954, is in two parts: Section A—the main scheme—and Section B—additional pension for certain senior grades.
    Membership: Compulsory for new entrants to the service; optional for existing employees.
    Persons eligible: Section A—new entrants—appointed whole-time employees aged 21 to 45 after 12 months' service. Existing staff will have a six-months' option to join, if they have completed or can complete 20 years' service by age 65. Section B—persons joining Section A who are employed in the senior grades listed in the First Schedule to the Scheme.
    Members' Contributions: Section A—1s. 8d. a week for entrant at age 21 rising to 2s. 5d. for entrant at age 54 or over. Section B—additional contribution from 8d. to 11d. a week according to age at entry.
    Minimum pensionable age: 65.
    Pension at minimum pensionable age: Section A—30s. a week after 40 years' membership, diminished proportionately for shorter membership. Section B—additional 10s. a week after 35 years' membership of Section B, diminished proportionately for shorter membership.
    Back-service credit: Existing employees aged 52 and over joining Section A will be given credit (at the cost of the Commission) to secure a minimum pension of 9s. 9d. a week at age 65.
    Deferred retirement: Normal pension increased by 1/15th of Section A pension and 1/10th of Section B pension for each year's service after 65 up to a maximum of 5 increases.
    Ill-health retirement: After 10 years' membership, proportionate pension based on years of membership; under 10 years' membership, return of contributions with interest.
    Death benefit: Lump sum payment representing approximately return of member's contributions with compound interest.
    Transfers: A transfer value will be paid to the salaried staff scheme when a member of the wages grade scheme is promoted and enters the salaried staff scheme. A transfer value will also be paid where a member with 10 years' membership leaves the Commission's service and enters other employment in respect of which there are reciprocal arrangements for transfer of pension rights. There is provision for acceptance of transfer values from other schemes and for the employees concerned to enter the Commission's scheme with waiver of age limit.
    Administration: The Scheme will be administered by a Central Committee of 20 persons, 10 appointed by the Commission and 10 nominated by the Trade Unions.
    Review: In the event of changes in National Insurance pension conditions the Commission are to review the Scheme and if necessary request the Minister to amend the rules.
    Set-off of Existing Wages Grades Pension Rights: Any benefits which the Commission are at present liable to provide under existing wages grade schemes or customary practice for existing staff who join the new Scheme will be set off against the Commission's share of the benefits due to those persons under the new Scheme.
    Division of Cost: Apart from the cost of back service credit, which is borne by the Commission, benefits are provided as to one-half by the employee's contributions and as to one-half by the Commission. The cost of administration will be borne by the Commission.

  ANGLO-AMERICAN TALKS
  Mr. Stewardasked the Prime Minister at what level it is proposed to continue political consultations with the United States of America on future relations with South-East Asia, on the future of the European Defence Community and on atomic energy co-operation.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Eden): I have been asked to reply.
  Ministerial consultations regarding Indo-China may be resumed at Geneva shortly.
  A working group on South-East Asia composed of British and United States officials has been set up in Washington to study in detail particular problems arising from the Washington conversations. It will report to the two Governments.
  As regards European questions, a working group of officials has been set up in London to consider the implications of the Washington Statement in respect
  2154
  of Europe. The group will be mainly concerned with the international status of the German Federal Republic, and is working on the assumption that the German contribution to Western Defence will be made through the European Defence Community.
  On atomic energy co-operation, no working group has been set up. This matter will be dealt with through normal diplomatic channels.
  Mr. Steward: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is proposed that the political consultations should cover economic matters?
  Mr. Eden: Not in the first instance. The immediate task is to deal with matters of a military and political character.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether it is proposed to restrict the study groups mainly to the officials of the two Governments mentioned, or is it intended to include the representatives of other Governments interested in this project?
  Mr. Eden: With regard to the European aspect, the French Government were informed in advance of this study group and will be informed of its conclusions, which I hope will be speedily reached, probably this week. The right hon. and learned Gentleman will know from his experience that this study group is entirely without committing the Government, and the other Governments will be informed. The same procedure will be followed in the case of South-East Asia, although conditions are slightly different. Several countries are concerned at about an equal level of significance.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us if he himself proposes to return to Geneva?
  Mr. Eden: The Foreign Secretary is hardly master of his own movements. As far as I understand it, there is a fresh gathering about to take place in Geneva and, as I assured the House before, if there is any service I can render I will go to it.
  Mr. Warbey: In view of the fact that France is the country in the West most directly affected by any granting of sovereignty to Western Germany, is it

  2155
  not shocking that that country should have been left out of these discussions and that Britain and the United States should, in effect, join with Dr. Adenauer in dragooning and blackmailing them into ratifying E.D.C.?
  Mr. Eden: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so, his statement is a travesty of what has been done. There is no question, of course, of Dr. Adenauer or the German Federal Government being brought into this study group. It is an Anglo-American study group arising out of Anglo-American discussions, and I was careful to explain that the French Government were informed in advance of its setting-up.
  Mr. Warbey: Were they invited to join it?
  Mr. Eden: They are being informed, and if the hon. Gentleman had taken the trouble to study what the French Prime Minister said only last week he would have seen that the Prime Minister said it was his intention first to tackle the Indo-China question and the E.D.C. question later. I cannot believe that our French friends have so little confidence in us that they would mind us having a study group, the work of which they were told about before, the results of which they will be told about afterwards and the outcome of which we shall work out together.
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Prime Minister if he will give a list of the former sovereign States who are now enslaved, referred to in the joint declaration made after his meeting with President Eisenhower.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): When President Eisenhower and I drew up our statement we were very conscious that some nations would be offended by being included in a list, and some by being excluded. There was a maxim which I was taught, when I was a young officer some years ago, which occurs to me now: "No names, no pack drill."
  Mr. Warbey: Does the Prime Minister really think it desirable to leave the world indefinitely in an unsettled state by refusing to recognise certain realities which
  2156
  emerged from the post-war world? Does he not think that to leave the list of countries unspecified makes it even worse and contributes to even greater unsettlement? Does the declaration mean, for example, that this country could not enter into a treaty with the Soviet Union because the United States refuses to recognise the incorporation of the Baltic States into that country?
  The Prime Minister: I think that illustrates how undesirable it is to state a list of names and for two countries meeting together, as we did, in discussion to do more than express a general opinion and not deliberately pick and choose who are in and who are out of a particular list.
  Mr. Younger: Can the Prime Minister assure the House that in fact this rather vague phrase represents a real agreement between the United States and ourselves as to what is meant by it? Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that this is not going to be another occasion in which, through using a very loose formula, we find the United States giving one interpretation and the British Government another?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think so. We are both so firmly based on fundamental principles.
  Miss Ward: Would not the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Warbey) benefit from a study group?
  Mr. Daines: Is the Prime Minister aware that there are some hon. Members who look at the present fate of the Czech people, the Poles and the Hungarians as typical examples covered by this declaration?
  Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Prime Minister, whom we are all very glad to see back again with the Foreign Secretary, when he will be able to make any statement to this House on the result of his talks in Washington and Ottawa?
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank): I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister intends to make a statement on this subject on Monday.

  BILL PRESENTED
    ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS)
    "to amend the law with respect to customs in the Isle of Man"; presented by Mr. Boyd-Carpenter; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 140.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Resolved:
That the Finance Bill, as amended, may be considered immediately after the re-committal of the Bill and Report thereof, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the interval between the various stages of such a Bill.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  FINANCE BILL
  Order for consideration, as amended, read.
  3.33 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): I beg to move,
  That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House in respect of the Amendments to Schedule 2, page 43, lines 7, 30 and 36, and page 44, line 39, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  I move this Motion formally in order to enable us to fulfil, not exactly undertakings, but what we said in Committee, with a view to making certain Amendments to the Second Schedule. Hon. Members will remember that certain points were put to us with a view to making the Second Schedule a little clearer and perhaps a little tighter. The Second Schedule refers to the withholding and withdrawal of investment allowances. It is to enable us to discuss the Government's proposals and to meet the points put forward that I move this Motion.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not propose to select the two Amendments to the Motion since these matters have recently been discussed in Committee of the whole House and decided on Divisions.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill immediately considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  Second Schedule.—(PROVISIONS SUPPLE MENTARY TO S. 16 (NEW PROVISION FOR "INVESTMENT ALLOWANCES").)
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller): I beg to move, in page 43, line 7, to leave out from "occurs," to "no," in line 9, and to insert "within the relevant period."
  This Amendment is linked with the Amendment proposed in page 43, line 36, at the end, to insert:
  (3) The relevant period in relation to any such event as aforesaid shall be three years, except that in relation to a sale or transfer falling within paragraph (d), or a sale, transfer or other dealing falling within paragraph (e), of the last foregoing sub-paragraph the relevant period shall be five years.

  2159
  These two Amendments, which it might be convenient to discuss together if the Committee agree, extend the time-limit in relation to sales or transfers of property coming within sub-paragraph (2) (d) of paragraph 1 of the Second Schedule or other transfers and other dealings under sub-paragraph (2) (e) which is the subject of the next Amendment in page 43, line 30. On the Committee stage the Economic Secretary, in response to requests made by the Opposition, undertook to consider extending the period of three

  (e) any sale, transfer or other dealing with the property representing the expenditure by the person incurring the expenditure or an associate of his, being a case where it appears either—

  5

  (i) that the expenditure was incurred in contemplation of the property being so dealt with; or

  (ii) that the sole or main benefit which accrued from that person's incurring the expenditure and the property being so dealt with was or derived from the investment and other allowances in respect of the property;

  10

  and not being a case where it is shown either that the purpose of obtaining tax allowances was not the sole or main purpose of that person's incurring the expenditure or of the property being so dealt with, or that his incurring the expenditure and the property being so dealt with were bona fide business transactions and were not designed for the purpose of obtaining tax allowances.

  This is a somewhat complicated Amendment, which I shall endeavour to explain as shortly and clearly as I can. The object is to tighten up the Schedule against possible abuse and at the same time to permit genuine business transactions. If the Committee look at subparagraph (2) (d) of paragraph 1 of the Schedule, they will see that it applies to a sale or transfer to a person not acquiring for a qualifying purpose, that is to say, not for a business use, and that it applies where a sale or transfer was in contemplation when the expenditure was incurred.
  That sub-paragraph was the subject of considerable consideration in Committee and this proposed new sub-paragraph (e) in this Amendment goes considerably further than sub-paragraph (d). Subparagraph (e) applies to a sale or transfer whether for a business or for private use or "other dealings"—that is to say, any event which gives rise to a balancing allowance, such as, for instance, the scrapping or destruction of the property—if any of those kinds of transaction were in contemplation when the property was so dealt with. That is one limb.
  The second part of the Amendment makes it apply where
  "…the sole or main benefit…"
  years mentioned in the Schedule to a longer period in relation to what one might call collusive transactions. These Amendments are the result of that consideration. Their effect would be considerably to extend the possibilities of checking collusive sales, transfers and other dealings for the purpose of getting investment allowances and so they would considerably strengthen the Schedule.
  Amendment agreed to.
  The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 43, line 30, at the end, to insert:
  of the transaction was the investment and other allowances in respect of the property dealt with. I would point out that for sub-paragraph (2) (e) to apply, one does not have to show that the result was contemplated. All one has to show is that that is the result. If this Amendment is accepted, the Revenue will be able to disallow an investment allowance under this new sub-paragraph (2) (e) where there is a prima facie case that the property, and the expenditure upon that property, comes within one of these two provisions to which I have referred.
  If the Revenue can show that, then the taxpayer will still get the investment allowance if he can show one of two things; either that the tax allowance was not the sole or main purpose of the expenditure, or, alternatively, that it was a bona fide business transaction not designed for the purpose of obtaining a tax allowance. It is the bogus, collusive arrangement to secure investment allowance that we want to stop. We do not want to stop the genuine business transaction. It is because we do not desire to stop the genuine business transaction that one finds the last few lines inserted in this Amendment. This Amendment, if accepted, will considerably strengthen the provision.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out lines 9 to 13.
  One must concede that the Government have made a very serious effort to meet the objections we made in Committee to the inadequacies of the Second Schedule as it stood. We pointed out—and I think that the Chancellor himself recognised—that the possibility of abuse was inherent in the whole system of investment allowance. I am moving this Amendment to the proposed Amendment because, while we appreciate that the Chancellor has made an effort to redeem his promise by tightening this up to some extent, we do not yet feel that he has gone far enough.
  We return to the matter for two reasons at least. As the Committee will remember, we were very disturbed by certain remarks of the Financial Secretary which seemed to show that there was a difference of opinion between us as to what might constitute an abuse. We are, therefore, anxious that everything which we regard as an abuse should be excluded from the benefit of an investment allowance. I listened very carefully to what the Solicitor-General said in explaining this Amendment. In some senses it is linked with his earlier Amendment which the Committee has just adopted.
  In approaching this problem, one must bear in mind that there are two different kinds of cases which have to be dealt with. First, there is the collusive case. Secondly, there is the transaction which, though not collusive—because it does not involve any collusion of any kind—is a transaction whereby the taxpayer may buy plant and machinery for the purpose, not of genuine investment, but of getting tax remission.
  The Solicitor-General was careful to say that he had put down the Amendment with a view to trying to stop the bogus or collusive transaction. By extending from three years to five years the period within which the conditions in subparagraphs (2) (d) and (2) (e) operate, I should have thought that the Chancellor had gone a long way towards eliminating the possibility of a collusive transaction in that sense. I imagine that the people who enter into collusive transactions which are to take effect after five years must be very few and far between, and the calculations which they might have to make
  2162
  must render any such scheme very difficult. We therefore welcome the extent to which the Chancellor has met us so far.
  There remains the second type of possibility of avoiding tax, namely, the person who buys some plant and machinery, not for a bona fide purpose, and not collusively, but merely for the purpose of getting a remission of taxation. As the Chancellor recognised during the Committee stage, that was a real possibility. I thought, however, that he was rather inclined to minimise the number of cases in which it might occur, because he did not think that there were many Surtax payers paying more than 16s. 6d. in the £, and he gave some figures as to the extent to which it might occur.
  The Solicitor-General: Would the hon. Member suggest that the case of the purchase for the single purpose, as he said, of getting remission of taxation or getting allowances is not dealt with by subparagraph (2) (e) (ii)?
  Mr. Fletcher: There is nothing in the Solicitor-General's speech which led me to that conclusion. That was one reason why we put down this Amendment to his Amendment. If that is the objective, I think it is achieved with much greater certainty if he omits, as we suggest, the provisos at the end of sub-paragraph (2) (e), because, in my view, they contradict what has gone before.
  3.45 p.m.
  I was saying that we have to deal with the persons who may invest in plant and machinery for the chief object of earning a remission of taxation. The Chancellor concedes that, if they do that, then they are not persons to whom he wishes to give an incentive by this investment allowance and that it is proper to exclude them from those benefits. Therefore, what we really have to examine is whether by this Amendment the Chancellor has gone as far as he reasonably can to secure his objective.
  The first question I should like to ask the Solicitor-General is what he conceives to be comprehended in the words "other dealing." The most significant distinction between the language in sub-paragraphs (2) (d) and (2) (e), which at first sight appear to cover a good many identical transactions—as I think they do—is

  2163
  that sub-paragraph (2) (e) for the first time uses the words "or other dealing." In the hypothetical case referred to in Committee of a person buying some plant and machinery and not using it, there would obviously be neither a sale nor a transfer. In a sense, there would be no dealing but a complete absence of dealing. We want to make quite sure that the language:
  …any sale, transfer or other dealing…"
  is calculated to cover the case where there has been no dealing in the property at all. That is the case about which my hon. Friends were talking. I should have thought at first glance that "dealing" meant "no dealing," but perhaps the Solicitor-General may be able to reassure us on that point.
  I am afraid that it is necessary to look at the language of the sub-paragraph a little closely. It is calculated to exclude from the benefit of an investment allowance a person who incurs expenditure with a view to obtaining the allowance and for no other purpose. It also covers the case of a person whose primary purpose in incurring the expenditure is not that of investment. I should be happy with the Government Amendment if my Amendment to it were accepted. I find it difficult to understand why it is necessary to add words which appear either to contradict what has gone before or to be surplus.
  If the Amendment were to stop at the end of sub-paragraph (2) (e) (ii) that would meet precisely the case which we are trying to put. We should exclude from the benefit of the allowance any transaction
  "…with the property representing the expenditure by the person incurring the expenditure…"
  when the
  "…expenditure was incurred in contemplation of the property being so dealt with."
  I am assuming that that covers the case of persons buying plant and machinery and not using it at all. Then the next provision deals precisely with a person whose chief object is to get the benefit of the investment allowance. It seems to me that that result is negatived if the taxpayer is then allowed to show that he has some other purpose. If it is not negatived, I find it impossible to understand why it is necessary that the words should be inserted.
  2164
  If one takes the case of a person who could show that he had some legitimate bona fide object in incurring the expenditure, then he would not come within the scope of sub-paragraph (2) (e) as it stands in any circumstances. It is odd that, having defined circumstances in affirmative language, it should then be necessary to define in a negative form the exact opposite. I should have thought that if the provision were left in this con,- fused and unusual form, it would produce considerable doubts and would not be neatly as satisfactory from our point of view. It would not achieve what I understood was the Chancellor's object nearly as satisfactorily as if my Amendment to the proposed Amendment were accepted. In the knowledge that it is the Chancellor's object to make the provisions of the Schedule as stiff and as tight as possible, we hope that he will accept our suggestion.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: Should I be in order, Sir Charles, in referring to the next two Amendments which are in my name?
  The Chairman: Yes. Both these Amendments deal with part of the words proposed to be left out by the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher).
  Mr. Mitchison: On that basis, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) that far the simplest thing would be to omit these lines and in that way to leave two alternative tests, one a subjective one of intention and the other an objective one of result. However, if that is not to be done, I take objection to the lines as they stand. I propose to state my objections and, having done so, to suggest that the Amendments in my name would provide a much simpler and easier method of doing what is apparently intended by these lines.
  I want to make it clear that I can see no real objection to omitting the lines altogether. I imagine that the Government take no serious objection as far as the subjective test is concerned. Where in fact
  "…the expenditure was incurred in contemplation of the property being so dealt with…"

  2165
  surely there can be no question that the investment allowance ought not to be given, because that is the case where the man was contemplating it and intended to do it, and that is exactly what it is desired to exclude.
  Turning to the objective test, which is simply the way in which it works out, the Chancellor has sought to limit that and perhaps to some extent to limit the other test also by a most peculiar form of words. I agree entirely with the Solicitor-General that this is a complicated provision, but it is made infinitely more complicated 'by these lines. If they were not there, the Amendment at least would have the merit of being very much plainer.
  If we are to have them in, it is open to the taxpayer to show either that the purpose of obtaining tax allowance was not the sole or the main purpose of incurring the expenditure or of the property being so dealt with. There are two separate transactions. The first is incurring the expenditure. The second is dealing with the property. Dealing with the property means, in the most obvious case, reselling it. The statute is to be strictly construed in favour of the subject. It seems to me that if the taxpayer is able to show that either the one or the other of these two separate transactions fell within that exception, he will be entitled to escape from the consequences of the provision notwithstanding that either the main objective or the main subjective test would otherwise have applied it to him.
  I cannot believe that that can be the intention of the Government. If one reads the Amendment, one finds the word "or" and in the next half of the provision one finds the word "and". I am certain that attention would have to be given to the distinction.
  The next point is that the taxpayer is supposed to prove a negative. This discussion shows how very complicated the matter is for the purpose of debate and how complicated it will be for the purpose of administration. The taxpayer has to show that it was not the sole or the main purpose. Surely, by far the simplest thing to do, and what he would do in practice, is to show that there was some other main purpose or perhaps some other sole purpose. It would only be a sole purpose if he had never considered this as anything at which he was aiming and if he
  2166
  was so completely disinterested that investment allowances did not enter into the picture. He might be able to show that he had a main purpose. If, for instance, he had bought a new farm tractor every year and said that he found it economical and wise to run his farm and to buy his farm machinery in that way, I should imagine that he would have gone a very long way towards establishing that he had another definite purpose. Of course, some business purposes are far less obvious than that. One would have to search for some time to find any example that would be so clear.
  4.0 p.m.
  Surely the simplest thing is to say that and leave it at that, that is to say, where we are considering the subjective, not the objective, test. If a man can show positively that he has some other purpose in mind as his sole or main purpose, then, if the exception is persisted in, he may be allowed to avail himself of it and to treat the transaction as one that ought to attract investment allowance. To go beyond that seems to me unnecessary and difficult.
  I come to the second alternative. The second thing he must show is that he incurred the expenditure and dealt with the property—both things this time—as a bona fide business transaction, and that they were not designed for the purpose of obtaining tax allowances. I do not know what the difference between something in contemplation and something that is "designed for" is in this kind of matter, but let us assume there is some difference or other. What exactly has one to show?
  I should say that this kind of inquiry is an inappropriate one. I agree that we have gone quite a long way from the time—in the Middle Ages, I think—when we were told that the mind of man was not triable, but we are now allowing the Inland Revenue to try it. Surely the trial that is contemplated in this case will be a fantastically complicated one? Take the second alternative. He may apparently incur the expenditure in contemplation of a resale, but if that was a bona fide business transaction and was not designed for the purpose of obtaining an investment allowance, then this lack of an investment allowance will not apply to that case.

  2167
  I find that a subtlety that ought not to be introduced into a taxing statute, if only on the ground that it involves not merely a trial of a man's mind but a trial of a subtlety more suitable to the days of the Inquisition than to modern Treasury practice. I should think it much better left out altogether. For these reasons, I should prefer the simple course of leaving this out altogether.
  I see no real reason why a man who gets the sole or the main benefit out of these two transactions should be allowed to get an investment allowance out of them, but even if it is persisted in and we are to have some limiting words, then they should be much simpler than the words here.
  Surely the substantial point is that once we have a sort of subjective limitation of what was the sole or main purpose, then, if he can show that it was some other purpose, well and good, and then, subject to what I have already said, one could let that pass; but if we apply the proposed Amendment, what we do in fact is to stop up one loophole, which was recognised in Committee before, and stop it up with a piece of mesh wire containing a mass of other loopholes.
  Therefore, in the name of simplicity, in the name of justice, I believe, and certainly in order to prevent such appallingly difficult psychological questions being posed to the Revenue and becoming a test of the taxpayer's liability, I suggest that we should either leave out the lines, as proposed, or put in some simpler form as suggested in my Amendments to the proposed Amendment.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: I think we all agree that, so far as the proposed Amendment goes, we welcome it—all of us, that is, with the possible exception of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, because the proposed Amendment is a substantial departure from the attitude that he took when he replied to an Amendment of ours in Committee on this subject. Then the Financial Secretary scoffed at any arguments we put forward; implied that there was no problem here, that it did not matter if a few people did a certain amount of dealing in this way and made a profit out of this arrangement; that it was not a matter of great concern, and that we had all enormously exaggerated
  2168
  the problem. We are very glad his views have not prevailed, that the Chancellor's rather more moderate views have prevailed, and that we have this proposed Amendment to this Schedule, even though it did not appear from what the Financial Secretary said that we were very likely to get it.
  We should recognise just how far the proposed Amendment goes and how far it does not go. It is clear that, while it will stop certain abuses, it does not deal with what is, perhaps, the major problem—that, for the first time, under this investment allowance provision it will remain possible to make an actual cash profit out of the installation of a piece of machinery, and that, therefore, for the, first time in our taxation history, it will in certain circumstances pay individuals to install machinery without themselves making any financial sacrifice at all to pay for it.
  That is now the situation, and it is not entirely dealt with. Of course, the situation is dealt with—and we welcome it—where it can be shown that people are taking advantage of it to make a sort of Inkiness of installing machinery, and doing it on a large scale, but the fact remains that certain people will have their plant and machinery more than paid for by the Inland Revenue under Clause 16 and the Second Schedule, even as amended. The proposed Amendment, as it stands, makes a substantial amount of progress, but it appears to be somewhat weakened by its last five lines.
  Substantial criticisms of them have been put forward, and I hope that the Solicitor-General, who, I trust, will reply to this debate, will at any rate tell us exactly what, in his mind, is designed to be accomplished by these last five lines that would not be accomplished by the proposed Amendment as it would stand without the last five lines. Even if we accept, as may be we shall—we cannot at the present time—after we have heard the Solicitor-General, that there is a desirable purpose to be served by the inclusion of the last five lines, I think it must still be accepted that the last five lines are an extraordinarily confused and muddling way of accomplishing any purpose at all.
  Double negatives are always fairly difficult to deal in, but I think the double negative that we have in these last five

  2169
  lines is without exception the most difficult to grasp I have ever come across:
  "and not being a case where it is shown either that the purpose of obtaining tax allowances was not the sole or main purpose of that person's incurring the expenditure…"
  It so happens that I myself have had a certain amount of unfortunate experience with double negatives. Some, months ago I wrote a letter on a different subject to "The Times," in collaboration with my hon. Friend the Member for Yardley (Mr. Usborne). When my hon. Friend showed me the draft of his letter, I said I agreed with the substance of it but I thought it needed a little redrafting and touching up, and in the course of redrafting it I inserted a double negative, a very simple double negative in comparison with that which we have here:
  "…and few would now contend that too many checks cannot be at least as harmful to democracy as too few."
  That, I think, was a very simple one, but it called forth a comment which, I regret to say, appeared in "The Times" the following day, and that could be applied far more positively to the double negative in the proposed Amendment than to the double negative inserted by me in the draft of the letter of my hon. Friend:
  "I have read this 15 times: 10 times silently, four times aloud and once in a psalm chant. I have written it out in columns, in coloured chalks, in concern. I have tried the translator's trick of transposition—' Few…cannot,' therefore Many…can.' And I am still defeated."
  I am bound to say that the view which I took at the time was that this was a most exaggerated comment, but I do not think that it is in any way an exaggerated comment upon the Amendment which the Solicitor-General has moved. The only possible way in which I believe we can understand this Amendment, after reading it a great number of times and after giving it a great deal of thought by means of this translator's trick of transposition, is to turn the double negatives into affirmatives, which is the only way in which one can see what it is all about. It is an extraordinarily confused piece of language to attempt to place in a statute.
  If the two Amendments in the names of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) and my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) were accepted, the proviso, instead of
  2170
  consisting of this extraordinarily complicated language, would read like this:
  "and not being a case where it is shown that the sole or main purpose of that person's incurring the expenditure or of the property being so dealt with, was a purpose other than the purpose of obtaining tax allowances."
  If there is something which is necessary about the two subsections before line 8, I should have thought that the Amendment in the names of my hon. Friends would meet the position far more completely than the very confused and tortuous language of the Solicitor-General.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman is confused and tortuous when dealing with a simple Amendment, but when we have the Solicitor-General confused and tortuous in applying himself to a confused and tortuous Amendment, we are certainly in a very complicated position indeed. I hope very much that the Solicitor-General will not only accept the views we have expressed about this extraordinarily complicated language, but will also tell us why it is necessary to have these five lines in the Bill at all.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: I should like to take the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) a little further, and ask the Solicitor-General to give us an example of the kind of transaction which will be caught by the Chancellor's Amendment and the kind of transaction which would get by under this Amendment. I should also like to ask him whether anyone who has had anything to do with the drafting of the Amendment has even been an inspector of taxes. Somebody will have to administer this provision, which is a clear example of the cure being worse than the disease.
  It seems to me that, first of all, the inspector of taxes has to discover what are the appearances of the matter—whether it appears that the expenditure was incurred in contemplation of the property being so dealt with—whether he intended to do it all along—or whether the sole or main benefit which has accrued from this expenditure has been to get tax relief in the form of investment allowance. When one of these two things appears to be the case, then he must go a step further and find out whether appearances are not to some extent deceptive. It is not so much a case

  2171
  whether appearances are not what they appear to be as whether or not there is some other explanation.
  If the inspector, first of all, is satisfied with the appearance of the matter, and, after inquiry, discovers that the taxpayer intended to do it all along, or if, although the main benefit which has accrued to him is tax relief in the form of investment allowance, he was perfectly bona fide in his intention, or if it was shown to be part of a perfectly genuine business transaction, then he should be let off That is what it is all about.
  Apart from the difficulty of discovering the truth in various aspects of complex matters of this kind, would there be any real injustice done to the taxpayer if we allowed the matter to stand as it is in subparagraphs (e) (i) and (ii)? Is any real injustice done to the taxpayer, however genuine he was and however well motivated he was, if, when he had done certain things, the main benefit which accrued to him was tax relief in the form of investment allowance? Do we need to go any further? Do we need to delve deeper and deeper into how genuine the transaction was and whether it was in the normal course of business that he did it or not?
  4.15 p.m.
  There are some weaknesses inherent in the very idea of investment allowances on an indiscriminate basis which I think it is quite impossible to remedy by over-elaborate safeguards. The test which one has to apply is whether the allowance should be given, with its accompanying tax relief, in certain circumstances in which it is clear that the tax relief is the main benefit which the taxpayer obtains from the transaction. I really do not know what an inspector of taxes will make of it.
  Can the Solicitor-General and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury contrive to keep within the rules of order and jointly give us their impression of a discussion between a taxpayer's legal adviser, on the one hand, and an inspector of taxes, on the other? I am sure that the Committee would listen enchanted to the wrangling that would go on, and to the penetrating questions which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would ask of his right hon. and learned Friend as to what
  2172
  he had in mind when he did certain things, and what had been intended. Why, the Solicitor-General might even have to call upon his local vicar or another independent legal friend, or even a member of his family to testify to the genuineness of a particular transaction and be given credit as to his character.
  The whole thing seems to me fantastic. How on earth inspectors of taxes, who already have between 150,000 and 200,000 back cases in their notebooks, are to cope with that kind of interrogation, I do not know. It seems to me that, although some taxpayers may feel a little hard done by, justice would, in fact, be done if the proposed Amendment ended at the end of line 8, and we left it to the first two paragraphs to govern the admissibility of the allowance. To go further is to get into complexities with which the ordinary man cannot cope.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: I take it, Sir Charles, that you will not mind if I begin with a double negative. It would not be gracious not to acknowledge that the Chancellor, in putting forward this Amendment, has gone some way to meet the points raised by my hon. Friends during the Committee stage of the Bill, but the credit which he duly received for that is shared with my hon. Friends who, very properly, have emphasised the great dangers which the Bill, as previously drafted, involved.
  I want to say that, to some extent, this Amendment is satisfactory to us. How far it is satisfactory I think will already be apparent from the speeches of my hon. Friends. Broadly speaking, we are happy about it down to the words in line 8 "in respect of the property." On that part of the Amendment only, I want to ask one or two questions of the Solicitor-General. I take it that there is no question here that the individual concerned would, so to speak, escape this provision merely by selling the property to somebody who was using it for a qualified purpose. In this case, we are covering every kind of sale, so long as it is of the character dealt with in sub-paragraphs (e) (i) and (ii).
  Secondly, I would ask the Solicitor-General whether he is satisfied that the words "other dealing" literally cover—to take our earlier example—leaving the tractors to rust in the field, or just leaving them, whether they rust or not? Apart from that, we are reasonably happy with

  2173
  that part of the Amendment; but we are by no means happy about the rest of it. It is not necessary for me to emphasise how extremely complex the wording is. When my hon. Friend the Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) was explaining somebody else's views on a letter which my hon. Friend wrote to "The Times," I rather feared that my hon. Friend was going to start to chant the Solicitor-General's Amendment to see whether he could make it any more intelligible in that way, but he spared us. I think we all agree that it is extremely complex.
  I echo what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton); let us try to keep Income Tax legislation simple, if we can. I know that it is the view of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Helens (Sir H. Shawcross)—I think it will be generally agreed that he is a distinguished lawyer—that Income Tax law is among the worst in English law. The proposed Amendment would make it a great deal worse.
  We feel that the last five lines let out far too much. I do not propose to go over the ground so well covered by my hon. Friends, but I will take the two cases where the Amendment bites. The first is where the expenditure was incurred in contemplation of the property "being so dealt with." Can it be seriously argued that in a case where the expenditure was incurred in contemplation of doing this particular deal—resale, or whatever it may be—that there is any reason whatever for giving the man concerned the investment allowance? I cannot see that there is any need to qualify that paragraph. The second case arises out of the sob-paragraph which states:
  "that the sole or main benefit which accrued from that person's incurring the expenditure and the property being so dealt with was or derived from the investment and other allowances in respect of the property."
  If that is the case, there is no reason why he should get an allowance either. I do not think we need investigate in the second case what his purpose may be. The fact is shown in the result and that is a good argument for withholding the allowance.
  I have one other argument to put to the Solicitor-General. If this were the case of some penalty being imposed, a fine or even worse, I could understand
  2174
  its being necessary to be extremely careful that no injustice was done by reason of the Amendment, but here we are dealing with whether or not a particular grant should be given or withheld. We are not even depriving the man concerned of the initial allowance but simply of the investment allowance. In view of that, it is not necessary to have these qualifications. I strongly support my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) in preferring to omit these five lines altogether.
  Unless the Solicitor-General can give us a convincing explanation on these points, we ought to take the matter further. We agree that it is extremely difficult to follow these complex provisions, but they would be simplified if the Solicitor-General gave illustrations and said: "This is the sort of thing we are worried about. This is the kind of case in which an individual ought to be allowed to get investment allowance but would not be allowed to get it if we deleted these five lines." I hope that he will be able to deal with the matter in that way and to give us the assurance for which we ask.
  The Solicitor-General: I share the view expressed by the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) that it is desirable to get our Income Tax law as clear and simple as possible, but it has proved in the past and will no doubt prove in the future a matter of extreme difficulty to get the statute law into that degree of clarity and simplicity that one would desire, if it is to operate as one wishes. That is not a reason for not trying to make it as clear and simple as possible.
  Having that view myself, I have spent a considerable time upon the Amendment to see whether it was possible to achieve the result one wanted with clarity and simplicity of language. The Amendment deals with a complicated subject, built up upon past statute law, but I hope I can satisfy the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks we have gone far enough or not, that there are good reasons for the Amendment being in its present form.
  Very little criticism was presented to the first part of the Amendment. The hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) asked me the significance et the phrase "or other dealing." I tried to explain it in moving the Amendment.

  2175
  By those words we hope to cover events of a character which would give rise to a balancing allowance. I gave two examples, the scrapping of a vehicle and the destruction of it. If either of those events occurred, there would presumably be a case for a balancing allowance and they would certainly come within the phrase "other dealing."
  The hon. Gentleman asked whether just letting the implement lie on the farm would come within that definition. At first sight, I would think it did not, nor would it have given rise to a balancing allowance; but the time might come when the implement had been left so long that the vehicle would be regarded as scrapped. In that case it would come within the wording. I cannot carry my answer on that point any further, and I hope that I have dealt satisfactorily with it.
  The next point put by the hon. Member for Islington, East was that the Clause did not bite upon the case where the single purpose was that of getting the remission.
  Mr. Mitchison: The Solicitor-General has been asked a number of questions about the "other dealing." Would there be any objection if the phrase were defined in the Bill in the way in which he is now defining it? I think that the Income Tax Acts contain a statement of the circumstances in which balancing charges and allowances are payable, and the definition could be done by reference.
  The Solicitor-General: I will certainly look at that point. There is a great deal to be said for treating it in this way and for leaving it to the inspectors in the first place, to the Commissioners in the second place, and possibly then to the courts, to determine whether or not it becomes "other dealing."
  I was referring to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Islington, East, whether this new subhead dealt with the case of a transaction with the single purpose of getting remission of taxation. It does deal with cases where the transaction is for the purpose of getting an investment or other allowance. If that is the sole or main purpose of the transaction, it would be caught within the first part of the subparagraph.
  2176
  4.30 p.m.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked me a question with regard to sale. He is right in thinking that the "sale, transfer or other dealing" can be with persons who acquire for a qualifying purpose as well as with persons who acquire for other purposes. It is in that respect, although there is a little degree of overlapping, wider than subhead (d).
  The real criticism here has been of what has been called the proviso, that is, the passage beginning "and not being a case where." The hon. Member for Islington, East argued that that last part beginning with these words should be omitted. He wanted to know why it was necessary to add what is called the proviso. I tried to indicate the reason quite shortly in moving the Amendment. It is to seek to exclude from the operation of subhead (e) genuine bona fide business transactions
  "not designed for the purpose of obtaining tax allowances."
  Unless there is something like what is in the last six or eight lines, it may be found that quite genuine transactions
  "not designed for the purpose of obtaining tax allowances"
  are caught by (ii) and, indeed, caught by (i). There might well be a case where the possibility of tax and investment allowance was taken into account quite legitimately by someone engaged in a bona fide business transaction, and there might also be a case in which the sole or main benefit accruing, although not intended, is one which was derived from an investment or other allowance.
  It is a complicated subhead. The hon. Member for Islington, East and the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) may ask, "If that last part of the Amendment is to deal solely with bona fide business transactions
  'not designed for the purpose of obtaining tax allowances,'
  why do you have the first alternative; namely, that
  'the purpose of obtaining tax allowances was not the sole or main purpose of that person's incurring the expenditure or of the property being so dealt with…'?"
  I can give a simple illustration to show the reason for that. Suppose that a piece of property, a tractor, which is bought in the bona fide carrying on of the business, catches fire and is destroyed. No

  2177
  one could say that that destruction was a bona fide business transaction, and it would not, therefore, come within the second part of the paragraph.
  This part of the subhead is founded on Section 412 of the 1952 Income Tax Act, which deals with tax avoidance by the transfer of income to persons abroad. I am advised that that provision has proved to work satisfactorily. In spite of the criticisms that have been advanced to this draft, in my view this subhead also will prove to work satisfactorily.
  The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) made great play with the difficulties of inspectors of taxes. I agree that anyone who has to study our Income Tax laws sometimes has to try to tie a damp towel round his head and hope that he will get the right answer. I believe, however, that having regard to that precedent and to the fact that when one studies it the balance in this subparagraph really is not so difficult, the inspectors of taxes will surmount this problem as well as they surmount so many others.
  The hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), in his entertaining speech, in which he was so complimentary to my right hon. Friend and to myself, talked a great deal about double negatives. I thought that he must be referring to the last time he played cricket, but he made it quite clear that it was to the last time he wrote a letter to "The Times." I think I have covered the points that the hon. Member raised.
  The Clause as it stands is intended to strengthen what is in the Schedule. When the hon. Member says that under the Bill it is possible for it to pay people merely to install machinery to secure the investment allowance, I say to him that in my view, if that were the main object of the transaction, whether it was a dealing with someone also engaged in trade or someone who was not engaged in trade—as, for instance, the passing over by a shopkeeper of a refrigerator to a friend to use in his private house—that sort of transaction would be satisfactorily caught by the Clause.
  I hope I have not taken too long in trying to explain something which is somewhat complicated. I shall certainly give careful consideration to the suggestions that have been put forward in relation to the drafting. I doubt very much whether the suggestions put forward by
  2178
  the hon. and learned Member for Kettering would improve the drafting, because he suggested that we should provide that the taxpayer should be required to show that he had some other purpose. If the taxpayer can show that he had some other purpose, that is one way of establishing the negative that this provision requires.
  Mr. Mitchison: It seems to me that this type of case is likely to occur. A taxpayer might say, "I contemplated getting an investment allowance. It was one of the reasons that I bought this tractor. The other was that I needed it on my farm." He would be asked, "Which was your main reason?" and he would reply, "I had both reasons in mind, and they are not comparable." Is that taxpayer to get his investment allowance in that case?
  The Solicitor-General: The answer, quite simply, is that if it appears to the inspector or to the Revenue that the taxpayer had in contemplation the investment allowance, it would be open to the inspector in the first place to say that the investment allowance would be disallowed. It would then be open to the taxpayer to say, "It is quite true that I had the investment allowance in contemplation, because I knew the provisions made in the last Budget—that was one of the things I took into account; but this was a perfectly bona fide business transaction and it was
  'not designed' "—
  there is a good deal of importance to be attached to the word "designed"—
  "for the purpose of obtaining tax allowances '."
  If the taxpayer can satisfy the inspector—or, it may be, the Commissioners—of that, he would be entitled to his investment allowance, although, in the first place, one of the matters that he took into consideration was the possibility of an investment allowance.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: I am bound to say that I found the right hon. and learned Gentleman's second speech most unsatisfactory. He answered some of the questions but he made no attempt to answer the crucial question which a number of my hon. Friends and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) asked. I do not want to go over the ground again, but I must put my finger on the crucial question which

  2179
  the Solicitor-General completely failed to answer.
  He claimed that the object of the proviso was to protect the bona fide transaction, and we have been asking him why the proviso is necessary to do that. Is it not the case that the bona fide transaction gets the benefit of the investment allowance anyhow, and that such a transaction is not defeated by the paragraph without the proviso? My right hon. Friend asked the Solicitor-General to give any case of a bona fide transaction in respect of which an investment allowance would be lost if our Amendment is accepted and the proviso deleted.
  The only example which has been given to us was that of a tractor which, having been purchased, was destroyed by fire. Surely in that case the taxpayer would get the benefit of the investment allowance if our Amendment were accepted. There is nothing whatever, if the proviso is deleted, to deprive the taxpayer of the benefit of the investment allowance if bona fide he acquires some property, and then, through some reason beyond his control, the property is destroyed.
  No one suggests in that case, which the Solicitor-General took, that the property was acquired in contemplation that it would be subsequently destroyed by fire, or that the person concerned acquired a tractor for the sole or main purpose of getting an investment allowance because ex hypothesi on the Solicitor-General's own illustration, the person purchased the tractor bona fide without the know
  ledge that it would catch fire and be destroyed. If that is the best answer that the right hon. and learned Gentleman can give us, I hope we shall divide on the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The Solicitor-General was kind enough to give one illustration, and I should like to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) in pressing this point. An individual buys a tractor which subsequently catches fire. Surely there is nothing under sub-paragraph (e, i) which would catch that individual. There was no suggestion in the illustration given that the individual intended that the property should catch fire. That lets him out so far as sub-paragraph (e, i) is concerned. I would ask the Solicitor-General whether the individual could possibly be caught by sub-paragraph (e, ii). Would the phrase "being so dealt with" really cover the case which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind?
  I do not imagine that what the Solicitor-General explained to us will cover the case of something catching fire. I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that the Solicitor-General's answer was quite unconvincing. If he likes to have another try, we shall gladly listen to him, but if he prefers to remain silent, I hope we shall divide the Committee.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 200.
  Proposed words there inserted.
  Further Amendment made: In page 43, line 36, at end, insert:
  (3) The relevant period in relation to any such event as aforesaid shall be three years, except that in relation to a sale or transfer falling within paragraph (d), or a sale, transfer or other dealing falling within paragraph (e), of the last foregoing sub-paragraph the relevant period shall be five years.—[The Solicitor-General.]
  The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 44, line 39, at the end, to insert:
  "or about any other dealing with the property."
  This Amendment is consequential, but I think it better to say a word about it. It is to enable information to be secured, not only in relation to sales or transfers,
  but in relation to any other dealings in property.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended (in Committee and on recommittal), considered.

  New Clause.—(POOL BETTING DUTY (EXEMPTION).)
  (1) Pool betting duty shall not be charged on bets made by way of pool betting in a competition for prizes for making forecasts as to sporting or other events, if, in relation to that competition the following conditions are satisfied, that is to say—

  (a) that the promoter of the competition is a society not conducted or established for profit, or is a member of such a society and authorised by the governing body of the society to promote the competition;

  (b) that the total amount payable by way of winnings in the competition does not exceed two hundred and fifty pounds;

  (c) that the whole proceeds of the competition, after deducting the prizes therein and any expenses incurred in connection therewith, are applied for the purposes of the society; and

  (d) that every coupon or other entry form shall bear upon the face of it the name and address of the society by which, or by the authority of which, the competition is promoted.

  (2) For the purposes of this section the expression "society" includes a club, institution, organisation or other association, by whatever name called, and also includes any local or affiliated branch or section of such a club, institution, organisation or other association; and the expressions "pool betting duty," "pool betting," "promoter," have the same meanings as they have in the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1947.—[Mr. Mulley.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  The purpose of this Clause is to exempt from Pool Betting Duty, which is at present levied at the rate of 30 per cent. of the total money staked, certain small pools that comply with the conditions set out in the Clause. The first is as to size, that the total paid by way of winnings does not exceed £250. As the prizes are unlikely to be less than 40 per cent. or 50 per cent. of the total money the pool would not be in size more than about £400 or £500 a week. Even if the prizes amounted to as little as 25 per cent. of the proceeds the total size of the pool would be limited in this way to about £1,000.
  Under the Pool Betting Act, 1954, as from 1st January next the pools will have to publish weekly and annual statements of the prizes paid and the moneys deducted for expenses. Obviously, if a society made a very small return in prizes out of the moneys received that would come to the notice of the people who

  2195
  patronised it, and would, in consequence, not exist very long. In addition, there is general supervision by the accountant to be appointed by the local authority with which the society is required to register. So there are sufficient safeguards to ensure that this exemption, if it were granted, would not be abused.
  The exemption will apply only to competitions conducted by or on behalf of societies not conducted or established for profit, and whose proceeds, after deductions for prizes and expenses, are devoted to the purposes of the society. I am advised that this definition will be wide enough to include football and cricket supporters' clubs, Church and charitable organisations, political and social clubs.
  Mr. Raymond Gower: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this would cover the inhabitants of a small village desirous of building a village hall, and running such a pool for that purpose?
  Mr. Mulley: I cannot claim to be an expert on the law in the matter, but presumably it would, because it applies to non-profit-making organisations, and if the purpose of the village society were to build a hall and the pool proceeds were devoted to that purpose, I should think that the society would fall within the conditions of the Clause. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) is hoping to speak on this new Clause, and if he does he will be able to deal at greater length with the hon. Member's question.
  The necessity for the Clause arises from a series of prosecutions and the closure in recent months on police advice of a large number of competitions that were run by these types of organisations. Having been advised to close under the provisions of the Betting and Lotteries Act, their only alternative is to turn themselves into pools as defined by the Finance Acts of 1947 and 1952. In so doing they possibly become legal and they certainly attract Pool Betting Duty at the rate of 30 per cent., which is a very large amount, and is particularly hard on the smaller societies, because 30 per cent. tax probably represents a bigger sum than they are getting for the expenses of running a lottery or pool.
  The extent to which these organisations are registering as pools can be gauged
  2196
  from figures the Chancellor gave me in reply to a Written Question on 1st June. On 1st January, 1954, there were 47 pools registered to pay duty and 35 paying duty. By 1st May the number had risen from 47 to 90, and the total paying duty had risen from 35 to 73, more than double. Although from the figures the Chancellor gave me it is impossible to say that the increase is entirely due to organisations of the kind I have been talking about and such as would be covered by the new Clause, there is good reason to suppose that most of them will be those societies and clubs obliged to operate as pools, and so obliged to pay 30 per cent. duty. But for the tax many of the societies that have been closed would have been operating and would have been permitted to operate as pools.
  Even with the tax at 30 per cent. the number grows. There is evidence of that in "The Times" of 5th July. Under the heading, "Hope of saving aid to county cricket. Scheme to legalise competitions," there appeared the following news:
  "A scheme has been put forward which will, it is hoped, save the football competitions organised by supporters' associations of several county cricket clubs, which have recently been banned by the police.…All the associations represented at the meeting had agreed to recommend to their committees that the scheme be brought into force. The new competitions would have to be registered as football pools and would be liable to taxation."
  The plight of the competitions is likely to get much worse, judging by the following passage in "The Times":
  "Police have warned officials of Colchester United Football Supporters' Club that the football competition which their club have been running for their 38,000 members is illegal and must cease. It is understood that similar action is being taken with the Chelmsford City and Clacton Town competitions. At the Colchester supporters' annual meeting last week it was reported that £11,000 had been contributed to the parent club."
  Those are but examples of many instances that have occurred during the year.
  County cricket is especially worthy of the Chancellor's consideration, because only last year he made a special tax concession to county cricket in view of its special circumstances. County cricket would not go on in the less fashionable counties, even with the benefit of the tax concession, unless it had supporters' clubs able to raise considerable sums of

  2197
  money. The Chancellor here has a great opportunity to provide a relief which would give widespread satisfaction.
  5.30 p.m.
  I will deal with the matter of cost in a moment. It may be objected that what is needed is not an amendment to the Finance Bill, but an amendment of the Betting and Lotteries Act to enable the competitions to continue to be run as formerly as lotteries under Section 24 of that Act. Of course, they would not attract any Pool Betting Duty.
  It may be argued that it would be unreasonable to attempt to amend the betting law by means of a new Clause to the Finance Bill, but, of course, we should not be doing that. We should only be dealing with the matter of taxation, and while I would not pretend for a moment that the better way of doing what I seek to do by this Clause would be by an amendment of the Betting and Lotteries Act, I think that we have to be very realistic about it and realise that such an amendment is not likely to take place for some time.
  The Government have been fairly sympathetic, but they have given no undertaking, or even an indication that they will introduce legislation for this purpose next year. It may be that a private Member will see fit and have the good fortune to do so, but one does not know, and, even with the maximum of good fortune, this state of affairs is bound to last for at least another year.
  I had hoped, in my own Bill, to meet the point, but the situation did not arise until after the Bill was drafted, and, of course, the long Title prohibited dealing with this lottery point. While I hope that the Financial Secretary or the Chancellor will tell us that some legislation is contemplated at an early date, I submit that in the meantime this new Clause could meet the point.
  I suggest to the Chancellor that it would cost him nothing at all, at least nothing in the way of revenue that he expected to get. No tax remission, of course, ever costs nothing, but the Chancellor could surely not have foreseen, when drawing up his Budget, that there would be this wave of prosecutions and all this closing down of lotteries, and the application by the societies concerned,
  2198
  to become pools, and, therefore, to become liable to pay the Pool Betting Duty. At any rate, I do not think the Chancellor contemplated that, in the present week, there would be county cricket supporters' associations contemplating the paying of Pool Betting Duty next year.
  I may be wrong, but, obviously, the Chancellor could not have anticipated, when drawing up his expenditure and revenue for this year, any additional revenue in this way from the tax. Therefore, any tax which these bodies pay is in the nature of a windfall to the Chancellor, and one, I submit to him, which he can very well do without. The Pool Betting Duty was never designed to be imposed upon football supporters' clubs and Church and charitable organisations. Indeed, when the duty was first imposed in 1947, all these organisations were, in fact, operating as lotteries, and therefore did not come within the definition.
  It may be that the Financial Secretary will fall back on the technical argument of drafting as a reason for resisting the Clause. However, I think he will appreciate that even though I had the benefit and assistance of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering in the matter, it is very difficult to draft Clauses of this character so as to satisfy the very exact standards of the Customs and Excise. This Clause was on the Order Paper during the Committee stage, but, unfortunately, it was not called. Therefore, I hope that the Financial Secretary will not fall back on the technical excuse of drafting.
  I wish to make it quite clear that I am not especially tied to the form of words used in the Clause, or even to the figure of £250. I am seeking to get the Government to accept the principle that Pool Betting Duty need not be charged in the case of charitable non-profit-making organisations which have formed themselves into pools as a result of the limitations of the Betting and Lotteries Act. I suggest to the Financial Secretary that, even if he is unable to accept the Clause in its present form, he should accept the principle contained in it and amend the Bill in another place.
  I doubt whether this Bill will get a certificate as a money Bill. Does the Financial Secretary deny the possibility of amending it in another place? If the Government think that something on

  2199
  these lines should be done, then I am sure that they should not allow a little inconvenience to stand in their way. Otherwise, I think it ought to go on record that the Government are prepared to let a little inconvenience stand between thousands of people and the relief which they seek. If that is so, then I think that the Financial Secretary should make it clear so that the people may know what the situation is when these matters are raised, as they frequently are, in the constituencies.
  Sir Edward Boyle: To suggest that the Finance Bill should be amended in another place is surely an unusual suggestion to come from the benches opposite.
  Mr. Mulley: Though the hon. Gentleman is very learned in the matter, I would remind him that more than half the Finance Bills in recent years have not been classed as money Bills, and I think that the present Bill is one of them. The necessary Amendment would be of a technical character, and it would come back to this House. Therefore, I can see no objection to it. I do not wish to go into the constitutional argument as, otherwise, I may strain the patience of the Chair. I hope that we shall get a favourable reply from the Financial Secretary because this duty is causing considerable hardship to a great number of very worthy organisations.
  Although the proposed new Clause would not provide the complete solution to the problem, it would at least provide a temporary relief. I would point out to the Chancellor that he will lose this money in any event when the Betting and Lotteries Act is amended—as it must eventually be—because the organisations concerned will then become lotteries, and will not be subject to the Pools Betting Duty.
  There is also, I submit, considerable administrative and management charges involved in collecting small packets of tax of this sort, and I doubt very much whether in some cases the cost of collection would not be greater than the tax itself. In addition, it may well be that some organisations are still running illegal lotteries, and that, nevertheless, the Customs and Excise are collecting duty from them as though they were pools,
  2200
  because the law on the point is extremely obscure. I am sure that it would be very embarrassing for the Customs and Excise if it were subsequently shown that they had been taking money in respect of a competition that was, in fact, an illegal competition.
  Therefore, I suggest to the Chancellor that on administrative grounds and on those of equity he should give up his claim to a tax windfall which he did not expect to get, because that is really all this Clause means. If he does that, he will give encouragement and hope to thousands of voluntary workers in the organisations concerned, and will enable a number of football and cricket clubs to continue in existence which, in default of a relief of this kind, may next season be obliged to close their doors.
  Mr. Mitchison: I beg to second the Motion.
  I wish to tell the House why I think that this is a matter of very considerable importance. The object of the proposed new Clause is a simple one—the removal of the obligation to pay Pool Betting Duty on non-profiting-making pools, subject to certain conditions concerning the size of the prizes and subject to no commissions being paid.
  I should have thought that, in general, the type of pool that might be organised in aid of a village hall or similar purpose would be helped by this Clause. In the past, it has not been the practice in very many cases to have this type of small non-profit-making pool. Of course, there have been some, but they have not been very numerous. What has happened is that there have been lotteries—the line between a lawful pool and an unlawful lottery is a very fine one—run for good purposes, sometimes on quite a small scale. An obvious instance is the football supporters' clubs.
  Recently, the police have gone round the country and have told people running these lotteries that they were illegal, or might be illegal, and that they would have to prosecute if the lotteries were continued. This has raised a serious social question which I will not go into at any length now, but it seems to me quite clear that in a number of these cases the lotteries in question were serving a perfectly good purpose, and the line between what is and what is not a

  2201
  lottery in this country is so fine and so difficult to draw that it is quite impossible to make a moral distinction depend upon it.
  A football pool in the usual form is legal and has been held to be legal. If we put it into a different form, and make it depend on the number of goals instead of merely on the winning teams, it becomes illegal. Even the exercise, to which I have never been able to aspire, commonly known as the crossword puzzle, is held to be a lottery in certain circumstances. Surely, if a football pool is not a lottery and a crossword puzzle is a lottery, there is something wrong and absurd about the law.
  The position in which these people have been put is this. They have either to bring themselves within the very limited Clauses, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) has referred, about private lotteries in the 1934 Act, or they have to convert themselves into football pools. The obstacle about converting themselves into football pools is the tax. That is the main obstacle.
  I do not believe that the tax was ever intended to apply to that sort of case. I am not saying "intended to imply" in the technical sense in which, of course, it applies at present; but I do not believe that when the tax was imposed originally anyone was thinking of the circumstances which have now arisen. I repeat "the circumstances." People who have been running small illegal lotteries, for what I believe we would all say were, on the whole, good purposes or, at any rate, not bad purposes, have now been prosecuted or threatened with prosecution when, in fact, they had deliberately been overlooked before. They are, therefore, faced with the alternative, either of bringing themselves within the small private lottery provisions of the 1934 Act, which is an exceedingly difficult thing to do, or of converting themselves into lawful football pools.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: The hon. and learned Gentleman referred to such a conversion as an obstacle. Surely it is not an obstacle, it is merely an additional financial burden on the small pool that is created.
  Mr. Mitchison: I think it would have the effect of deterring a very large
  2202
  number of people from going on with the pool. I think that it would be a real deterrent to the type of thing which we have in mind.
  I have been asked in my own constituency, "What do we do about our football supporters' clubs?" and I have said, "There are only two choices before you—one is to bring yourselves within the provisions of the 1934 Act"—and there will have to be very substantial changes in order to do it, but I should not be in order in discussing that—"or you turn yourselves into a football pool." The answer I received—and hon. Members who may have said the same thing on a similar occasion have probably received the same answer—was, "Well, in that case we have to pay the Pool Betting Duty, and it simply is not worth it."
  It is not only the case of the Pool Betting Duty, they are also, of course, to be supervised—they do not object to that—but it is the actual amount of this rattier heavy Duty of 30 per cent. which, I believe, is deterring people. If it is held that that is a doubtful case, we could not have a better reason than the one produced by an hon. Member opposite just now of raising money for something in the nature of a village hall.
  We have to take people as we find them, and the fact remains that if we raise money by something of this sort we get more money than if we ask for direct subscriptions. I am not here drawing a fine distinction about the morality of these matters. I say frankly that it does not seem to me in that sort of case to be wrong. I can understand that other people may think otherwise, but I do not believe that the broad sense of the community takes that view. I think that they look, as British people always do, at the real substance of the matter, and the same reasons that led to the legalisation of small raffles and small lotteries to a limited extent in the 1934 Act would induce them to say that it is perfectly right to give a similar protection, although in an entirely different field, to these small pools.
  5.45 p.m.
  I said just now that the line is a fine one. It is, of course, fine both for purposes of the law and for purposes of morality. One might object to football pools. They are, however, legal, and, so

  2203
  long as that is the position, it does not seem to me that there ought to be any moral objection to seeing that the duty is fairly applied and limited to the kind of cases which, I believe, the House had in mind when they were passing the original duty.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer will no doubt tell us what this is to cost. I think that my hon. Friend made it quite clear that what we had in mind by this new Clause was not only and perhaps not mainly the present position, but that we were deliberately intending to open the door to a certain amount of small pool-making, if I may use that term. That is to say, we deliberately intended to allow people, so far as the financial position was concerned, to run and support small pools.
  I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend said, that it would be far more satisfactory if, instead of dealing with a matter of this sort in a Finance Bill, we were able to discuss, fully and properly, the whole position about lotteries as well as pools and, indeed, the whole position about betting and wagering. I do not want to get out of order and, therefore, I would only say this: I think that the recent change in the attitude of the police authorities all over the country, for whatever reason, from the attitude they adopted, and said they adopted, when they were giving evidence before the Royal Commission in 1950—that that change of attitude and one or two other things has made a thorough revision of that sort absolutely imperative.
  If it is not done I think that a great many sporting, charitable and, possibly, religious organisations will find themselves in very serious difficulty because the law is in a mess and the Government have not the courage to bring forward a Measure to put it right. I say at once that I think it needs a lot of courage for this is an extremely touchy and difficult matter, but it ought to be done.
  Until it is done, and also because this is right in itself, I support the Clause. I hope that the Chancellor will accept it as it is. It is not a very complicated Clause. I do not think we need worry too much about having it amended or not amending it. Why should we not take it as it is? It is in plain English and says what it means. It is a very good
  2204
  Clause for a very good purpose; it has been very skilfully drafted, and it is even better in its intention and effect than in its language.
  Mr. C. J. M. Alport: I am sure that the House will agree that the right way to achieve the object for which the proposed Clause is drawn is, as was said by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), by reform of the betting and lotteries legislation. However, whatever strictures may be passed upon the present administration, I am sure the hon. and learned Member will recognise that were it to change within the next two or three years reform of that legislation would still be waiting to be dealt with in the future. Thus, we are faced with an immediate problem.
  The problem has arisen as a result of the apparent change in policy of police forces in various parts of the country which has led them to advise those who organise football competitions, in aid, particularly, of football clubs, that they are acting illegally.
  The part of the country which I represent is particularly affected. We have a small and struggling team which, unfortunately, last year ended fairly low in the Third Division. This team has depended very largely upon the work of its supporters and the financial help which it has received during the last few years by means of a football competition. The team is supported by a number of constituents of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He may well feel, as he may be, as I am, a member of the supporters' club, the indignation of the members of the Colchester United Supporters' Club when they found that they were no longer able to give the team such financial help in the future.
  Admittedly, there is a way out, and it was pointed by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley). It is possible to turn the football competition into a football pool, but if that is done it will be subject to the 30 per cent. tax. It is a very different matter to get enthusiastic supporters to raise money in this way if they know that 30 per cent. of the reward of their efforts will go to the Exchequer. I am sure that all hon. Members are anxious to support the Exchequer normally according to the law, but it is

  2205
  hard if, in one's spare time, one is called upon to work to provide additional revenue for the Treasury.
  Consequently, although the drafting may not commend itself to my right hon. Friend, I feel that the object of the Clause ought to commend itself to the House. I am sure that I should be supported in these remarks by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Ashton) if he were in the Chamber, because one of the teams most recently affected by the decision was Chelmsford Town. On the other side of my constituency, Clacton Football Club has also been affected by it.
  The decision affects the more modest football teams throughout the country who are struggling against considerable financial difficulty and whose supporters want to be able to ensure that their teams continue to give the entertainment and pleasure which these small clubs give.
  Even if my right hon. Friend cannot accept the wording of the proposed Clause, I hope that he will at any rate give us some hope that he looks upon the Clause, or will do so next year, with sympathy so that it will be possible for those who desire to continue to support activities of this sort, which are very desirable and essential, will have some expectation that in future their efforts will not be subject to 30 per cent. tax.
  Mr. Raymond Gower: I imagine that hon. Members on both sides of the House will sympathise very much with the object of the proposed Clause. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) suggested—I agree with him—that the attitude of the police authorities until 1950 was probably more in keeping with public opinion all over the country than their attitude since then. We all recognise that their duty is to enforce the law, and the existing law apparently forbids these lotteries, but what disturbs me is why for so many years the police authorities did not do anything. I always understood that the kind of lottery which was then taking place was illegal.
  Be that as it may, here is an attempt to give some assistance to non-profit-making bodies which are forced into a difficult position by the chaotic nature of our law on this subject. I can give two examples from my own constituency. The
  2206
  Glamorgan County Cricket Club was one of the less fashionable county clubs in the past, but in recent years it has been more successful than hitherto. It was among the clubs which desired to maintain county cricket in soil which has not always produced county cricketers. To do this, it was induced to institute a scheme, and a supporters' club was established. My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) should not be too hasty in condemnation of this, because I believe that the idea was copied from the Worcestershire Cricket Club.
  As a result of its efforts, the supporters' club bought certain equipment for the cricket club, paid for seating in some of the county grounds and instituted two nurseries for the training of young cricketers. All of these were desirable objects. The purist who objects to all forms of gambling will say that these are improper objects, but I am sure that the great majority of our people, whether they be associated with an organised religious body or not, will feel that that view is not tenable and that these objects are completely different from the form of gambling which is calculated to damage the social life of a family. The weekly subscription to the cricket team's supporters' club was 1s. per person. No one could be led into a life of intemperate gambling by subscribing to such a scheme.
  There was a not dissimilar scheme at Rudry, in my constituency, to which I referred in an intervention to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley). The local inhabitants formed a body with the very laudable object of building a village hall. There is no proper hall where the villagers can hold social functions. By means of some such scheme the people of the village have contrived, since the last war, to accumulate a few thousand pounds, which is a very large sum for such a small village. They are now faced with a strange state of affairs, that they cannot go on without turning their former scheme into a football pool or without using great ingenuity to bring it within the terms of the 1934 Act, possibly an even more difficult feat.
  I sincerely hope that there will be a wholesale re-examination of the inadequacy of our betting laws; that the Financial Secretary will be able to say that he views this Clause with sympathy and understanding; and that he will do

  2207
  his best to implement its object, because I feel that here is a case which is in keeping with public opinion, and public opinion on such an issue should be considered.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: This debate has ranged over wide issues covering views very largely on the present state of our laws on betting and lotteries and the whole complexities of the law effecting gambling. There are very great difficulties in discussing those sort of subjects by way of an amendment to the Finance Bill or, indeed, dealing with the problems that arise in connection with them by way of amending the Finance Bill. Apart from anything else, the general responsibility for the law affecting this matter rests, as the House knows, with my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary. We are here only concerned with the very edge of the general problem, because it is sought to alter indirectly the effect of the general law on this subject by way of an adjustment of our taxation law.
  That is a very difficult thing to do, and if I may say so, perhaps of doubtful merit on principle. I fully understand the practical considerations, and I will in a moment come to them and to what lay behind the remarks of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) and of other hon. Members. I think it is fair to say that if this House wants to consider the laws affecting betting and lotteries it is very difficult to give full weight to the differing views that are held in different parts of the country, and not at all along party lines, on the very narrow and limited point with which alone we are strictly concerned here, namely, the proposed new Clause to the Finance Bill. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) and the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park themselves regard this new Clause as, at the most, the second best compared with what they really wish to do.
  Mr. Mulley: I think I can make the matter quite clear by saying that if the law were amended the need for the new Clause would not arise, because there would be no such societies registered as pools. I agree that the point is difficult
  2208
  to deal with in this way, but surely on the Finance Bill we have to take notice of the fact that a tax which was designed for one purpose has been changed and is beginning to be applied to matters for which in the first instance it was not designed. That is why it is raised in this way.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I fully understand the hon. Member's point and I will answer it in due time, but he appreciates that it is very difficult to deal with the general law on the subject by way of an adjustment to the revenue.
  There is one side issue I should like to mention before dealing with the main consideration. I was surprised to hear a criticism of the present position as it affects cricket. At an earlier stage of our debates on the Finance Bill we heard criticism of the favourable way in which my right hon. Friend had treated cricket, and I should have thought that we have an extraordinary good case in cricket, so good that hon. Members opposite wished other games and sports to have the same terms. Our hands are singularly clean in cricket, sometimes even in catching the ball.
  The general point of the difficulty of dealing with this matter by way of an amendment to the Revenue law is very clearly brought out when one looks at what precisely it is proposed to do, and my criticism of the Clause is not that it is ill-drafted. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman who drafted it performed a workmanlike job in so doing, but when we come to consider it in detail it 'brings out the very real difficulty which arises once we try to tinker with the laws on betting and lotteries by way of amending the Finance Bill.
  Let us see what it is that is proposed. Under the first subsection it is proposed
  "that the promoter of the competition is a society not conducted or established for profit."
  Immediately we try to apply those words to the subject matter with which hon. Members are concerned—that is, the subject matter of these small pools connected particularly with sporting clubs—we come up against the difficulty that these words do not bite on the problem at all.
  In practice, these small pools are organised generally not by the club itself which is to get the ultimate benefit but by a committee or individual on its

  2209
  behalf, and that committee or individual is, in fact, conducting a business of operating pools and certainly—here I fall into the condemnation of the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) about double negatives—not being conducted not for profit. The whole object of those who are promoting pools in that way is the raising of money for a good purpose, and, as I understand, they would not be covered by the benefit given by this new Clause nor, indeed, if we follow the matter back—
  Mr. Mulley: If the right hon. Gentleman would read the Clause he would see that they are covered by these words:
  "…or is a member of such a society and authorised by the governing body of the society to promote the competition."
  That, I think, meets the situation.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It does not meet it at all. The promoter is either a separate person or a member of the committee. In both cases if he conducts the matter in the way which I have described he would not get the benefit of not conducting for profit. It does not make the slightest difference if it is looked at as an alternative. The result is precisely the same.
  Let us come to the question of the ultimate recipient. Reference has been made to professional football clubs. Generally speaking, they do not come within this definition either, so even if it were possible to get over the initial difficulty of the actual person promoting or conducting the Bill and get to the principle of the recipient of the money, then at any rate in many of the cases, and in particular the cases to which hon. Members have indicated that they attach considerable importance, this proposal would not benefit them. The ordinary, professional football club is not in law a body not conducted for profit, and, therefore, a supporters' club attempting to raise money to assist such clubs is not covered, because it will come under the second difficulty of the ultimate recipient.
  I do not make that point to demonstrate that the new Clause is drafted on bad grounds. I tried to draft too many Amendments in Opposition myself to say that, but it is an indication that, however well a provision is drafted along these lines, it simply does not fit the facts. Therefore, we cannot deal with this matter satisfactorily in this way, and that,
  2210
  I am afraid, is the conclusion about the proposal to which, after a good deal of consideration, my right hon. Friend has come.
  There are other difficulties which I should put before the House. There is certainly the difficulty of principle in exempting from tax a normal trading activity because the profits are to be given to a good cause. That is a general principle which obviously gives rise to considerable difficulties. There is the problem, too, of competition with the small professional pools—the question whether it is fair to exempt completely this kind of pool and maintain tax at a high rate on the small professional pool. Apart altogether from the fact that the Clause does not do what it is intended to do, I do not think that the House will find a satisfactory solution to the problem on the lines of this proposal, and I do not think that we shall find it by amendment or alteration of the Clause, such as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park was generous enough to suggest.
  I shared the excitement of my hon. Friend the Member for Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle) when I heard the hon. Member's suggestion that the Finance Bill should be amended in another place. I understand that that has not been done since another place amended Lloyd George's Finance Bill in 1909. Such a suggestion would raise most serious questions of Privilege. The suggestion was all the more remarkable in that it came from that side of the House which has not been always notorious for its advocacy of the rights of another place.
  Mr. Mulley: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would bear in mind the possibility that the satisfactory outcome of the events of 1911 might be repeated.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not know that that would be a particular inducement to another place to take the line which the hon. Member was good enough to suggest.
  This is a very real problem. I realise that the proposal is put forward because of the difficulty which is arising in the case of lotteries, which are now held to be outside the law. It is no duty of mine to comment upon the exercise of their rights by the prosecuting authorities, nor does it fall to me or my right hon. Friend to deal with proposals for amending the

  2211
  law itself. This is a problem which my right hon. Friend will be glad to discuss with my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary in the coming year. The Home Secretary is considering this general aspect of the law at present, although, of course, it is not possible to hold out hopes of early legislation. I can say, however, that this debate has been extremely helpful in bringing out very clearly and underlining at any rate one of the difficulties that can arise in the present state of our law, and in raising the particular aspect of it to which attention can and will be given during the coming year.
  What the result of consideration of a complex, difficult and controversial matter of this sort would be, it would be wrong for me to attempt to forecast, but I can say to my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Alport) that full consideration will be given to this aspect of the matter and that during the coming year the law on this subject will be subjected by the Home Secretary to very careful thought to see whether improvements can be made. For the reasons that I have given—that it does not do what it sets out to do and that it only touches a corner of the very real problem—it is not possible for my right hon. Friend to accept the new Clause.
  Mr. Mitchison: It has been known for some time that this problem would become as acute as it has become recently. When the matter is being considered, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that unless something is done the "Poppies" who play football for Kettering and the "Steelbacks" who play for Corby will not be able to continue their activities?
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. John Edwards: The remarkable unanimity of the four speeches that we have heard on this subject led one to expect that the Financial Secretary would come down heavily on the side of doing something in this new situation, but the right hon. Gentleman advanced general reasons why the new Clause could not be accepted. He said that he did not think it right to use taxation, or relief
  2212
  from taxation, for this kind of purpose. In fact, we commonly use relief from taxation as a way of encouraging enterprises and projects which we think are desirable. Certainly, in the field of entertainment this is now fairly common.
  The Financial Secretary gave the example of cricket, where, he said, his hands were unusually clean.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Singularly clean.
  Mr. Edwards: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon if I appeared to be offensive and to be suggesting that his hands were not usually clean. The right hon. Gentleman took the case of cricket and showed where taxation relief had been used to encourage something that was desirable. If it could be done in the case of cricket, it could be done in circumstances like these.
  In the main, however, our case must rest on two sets of arguments. The first is that it really ought not to be impossible to distinguish between the football pool promoter who is in business for profit and the society or other undertaking that is trying to raise some money. Secondly, it is important to appreciate the difference in the circumstances—that circumstances have changed by reason of the very strict application of the law in recent times, about which perhaps the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department might tell us if that were in order.
  In these circumstances, in which there, has been a change compelling people who used to raise money in one way to raise it in another, we ask whether the Government cannot do something to give some relief. We are, therefore, very disappointed with the Financial Secretary. Without any reflection on the choice, I must say that this new Clause had been put down at an early stage but was not selected and, therefore, we recognise that there is a difficulty about the matter. All the same, we expected a more forthcoming reply from the Financial Secretary. We hope that even at this late hour he will go further to meet us than he has done so far.
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 265.

  Division No. 189.]

  AYES

  [4.44 p.m.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Braine, B. R.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington. S.)

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Alport, G. J. M.

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Crewder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M,

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Baldwin, A. E

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Banks, Col. C

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Barlow, Sir John

  Butler, Rt. Hon R. A. (Saffron Waldon)

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Campbell, Sir David

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Beach, Maj. Hicks

  Carr, Robert

  Donner, Sir P. W.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Gary, Sir Robert

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Benett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Channon, H.

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

  Bennett, William (Woodside)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

  Drayton, G. B.

  Bevins, J. R. (Texteth)

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Drewe, Sir C.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Cole, Norman

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Black, C. W.

  Colegate, W. A.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Bottom, Sir A. C.

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Fletcher, Sir Walter (Bury)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Fletcher-Cooke. C.

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Longden, Gilbert

  Russell, R. S.

  Fort, R.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Foster, John

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Scott, R. Donald

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Shepherd, William

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Glover, D.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

  Godber, J. B.

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Maclean, Fitzroy

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Speir, R. M.

  Gower, H. R.

  MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Spans, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

  Grimond, J.

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir Reginald

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Storey, S.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Marples, A. E.

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Maude, Angus

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Maudlins, R.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Hay, John

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C

  Summers, G. S.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Mellor, Sir John

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Heath, Edward

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Teeling, W.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Neave, Airey

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Holt, A. F.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Tilney, John

  Hope, Lord John

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Turton, R. H.

  Horobin, I. M.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Vosper, D. F.

  Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wade, D. W.

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Page, R. G.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

  Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Han. C.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Webbe, Sir H. (London A Westminster)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Wellwood, W.

  Kaberry, D.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

  Kerr, H. W.

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Lambton, Viscount

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Wills, G.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Redmayne, M.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Ronton, D. L. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Lindsay, Martin

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith and

  Linstead, Sir H. N

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Mr. Legh.

  NOES

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Clunie, J.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Coldrick, W.

  Andersen, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Boardman, H.

  Collick, P. H.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Corbel, Mrs. Freda

  Awbery, S. S.

  Bowden, H. W.

  Cove, W. G.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Bowles, F. G.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Balfour, A.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Bartley, P.

  Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Beattie, J.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Daines, P.

  Bence, C. R.

  Burke, W. A.

  Dallen, Rt. Hon. H.

  Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Benson, G.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Blackburn, F.

  Champion, A. J.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  2182

  2183

  Deer, G.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Rhodes, H.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Keenan, W.

  Richards, R.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Kenyon, C.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Edelman, M.

  Kinley, J.

  Ross, William

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Lawson, G. M.

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Short, E. W.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Fernyhough, E.

  McGovern, J.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Fienburgh, W.

  McInnes, J.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Follick, M.

  McLeavy, F.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Forman, J. C.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Steele, T.

  Glanville, James

  Mason, Roy

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Grey, C. F.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mitchison, G. R

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Coins Valley)

  Moody, A. J.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Morley, R.

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Hannan, W.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Thornton, E.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

  Timmons, J.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Mort, D. L.

  Tomney, F.

  Hastings, S.

  Moyts, A.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Usborne, H. C.

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Weitzman, D.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Oswald, T.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Hobson, C. R.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  West, D. G.

  Holman, P.

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Holmes, Horace

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Pannell, Charles

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Willey, F. T.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Parker, J.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Paton, J.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Pearson, A.

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Pearl, T. F.

  Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Popplewell, E.

  Willis, E. G.

  Janner, B.

  Porter, G.

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Yates, V. F.

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Pryde, D. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Rankin, John

  Mr. Wilkins and Mr. John Taylor

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Division No. 190.]

  AYES

  6.19 p.m.

  Albu, A. H.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Pearson, A.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Hastings, S.

  Peart, T. F.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Popplewell, E.

  Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  Porter, G.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Hobson, C. R.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Balfour, A.

  Holman, P.

  Pryde, D. J.

  Bartley, P.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Pursey, Cmdr. H

  Beattie, J.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Rankin, John

  Bence, C. R.

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Reid, Thomas (Swinden)

  Bonn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Benson, G.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Rhodes, H.

  Blackburn, F.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Richards, R.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Boardman, H.

  Janitor, B.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Bowden, H. W.

  Jeger, Mrs, Lena

  Ross, William

  Bowles, F. G.

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Royle, C.

  Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Short, E. W.

  Burke, W. A.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Keenan, W.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Kenyon, C.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Champion, A. J.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Clunie, J.

  Kinley, J.

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Coldrick, W.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Collick, P. H.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Steele, T.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Daines, P.

  McGovern, J.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  McInnes, J.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  McLeavy, F.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Deer, G.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Thornton, E.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Timmons, J.

  Edelman, M.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Tomney, F.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Mason, Roy

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Usborne, H. C.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Hellish, R. J.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Master, Sir F.

  Weitzman, D.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Moody, A. S.

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Fernyhough, E.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  West, D. G.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Morley, R.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  While, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Follick, M.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisharn, S.)

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Forman, J. C.

  Mort, D. L.

  Wigg, George

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Moyle, A.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

  Mulley, F. W.

  Willey, F. T.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Glanville, James

  O'Brien, T.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Oldfield, W. H

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Willis, E. G.

  Grey, C. F.

  Oswald, T.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Padley, W. E.

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Wyatt, W. L

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Yates, V. F.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Hannan, W.

  Pannell, Charles

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hardy, E. A.

  Parker, J.

  Mr. Holmes and

  Hargreaves, A.

  Paton, J

  Mr. James Johnson.

  NOES

  Aitken, W. T.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Alport, C. J. Ml.

  Banks, Col. C.

  Bennett, William (Woodside)

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Barber, Anthony

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Barlow, Sir John

  Bishop, F. P.

  Arbuthnot, John

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Black, C. W.

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Beach, Maj. Hicks

  Bossom, Sir A. C.

  Aster, Hon. J. J.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A

  2214

  2215

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Braine, B. R.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Page, R. G.

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Holt, A. F.

  Peaks, Rt. Hon. O.

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Hope, Lord John

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Piekthorn, K. W. M.

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Horobin, I. M.

  Pitt, Mist E. M.

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Campbell, Sir David

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Carr, Robert

  Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

  Redmayne, M.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Channon, H.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Cole, Norman

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Colegate, W. A.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Kaberry, D.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Kerr, H. W.

  Russell, R. S.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Crouch, R. F.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Scott, R. Donald

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Shepherd, William

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Lindsay, Martin

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

  Dedds-Parker, A. D.

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Donner, Sir P. W.

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Speir, R. M.

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Drayton, G. B.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Drewe, Sir C.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Storey, S.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Erroll, F. J.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Summers, G. S.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Teeling, W.

  Fort, R.

  Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Tilney, John

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt.Hn. Sir Reginald

  Turner, H. F. L.

  George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Turton, R. H.

  Glover, D.

  Marples, A. E.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Godber, J. B.

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Maude, Angus

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Maudling, R.

  Wade, D. W.

  Gower, H. R.

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

  Grimond, J.

  Mellor, Sir John

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Ward, Mitt I. (Tynemouth)

  Hare, Hon. J. H.

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Neave, Airey

  Wellwood, W.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Hay, John

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Wills, G.

  Heath, Edward

  Nutting, Anthony

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Mr. Vosper and

  Mr. Richard Thompson

  New Clause.—(SALARIES OF EMPLOYEES OF INTERNATIONAL WHEAT COUNCIL.)
  (1) So long as the seat of the International Wheat Council established by the International Wheat Agreement signed at Washington on the twenty-third day of March, nineteen hundred and forty-nine, is in the United Kingdom, an employee of the said Council who is not a citizen of the United Kingdom and colonies shall enjoy exemption from income tax in respect of any emoluments received by him as an officer or servant of the said Council.
  (2) This section shall be deemed to have applied to emoluments for any period since the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and fifty-three (that is to say the date on which the Government of the United Kingdom ceased to be a member of the said Council).
  (3) This section shall be without prejudice to the powers conferred by the International Organisations (Immunities and Privileges) Act, 1950 (which relates to organisations of which the Government of the United Kingdom is a member).—[Mr. Boyd-Carpenter.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  This new Clause has as its purpose to enable us to continue the exemption for foreign employees of the International Wheat Council from taxation on their salaries which was given to them while this country was a member of the International Wheat Council.
  The International Wheat Agreement of 23rd March, 1949, provided that the Government of the country where the seat of the Council is located should grant exemption from taxation on the salaries paid by the Council, except to its own nationals. The Council chose London as the seat of the Wheat Council and, consequently, while this country was a member of the International Wheat Council, it was under an obligation to grant this exemption. The exemption was effected by Order in Council under the International Organisations (Immunities and Privileges) Act, 1950, and was subject to affirmative Resolution in this House in the usual way.
  The United Kingdom ceased to be a member of the International Wheat Council on 31st July, 1953, and, consequently, the power to grant exemption under the Act of 1950 lapsed, as it applies only to organisations of which this country is a member. It is now necessary either to provide for exemption, as is provided by this Clause, or to subject these salaries to tax.
  As this country is no longer a member of the International Wheat Council, it is clear that the obligation under the Agreement of 1949 is no longer strictly binding. But I would suggest to the House that it would be at least a piece of international bad manners for this country to withdraw the exemption previously given on the grounds that the
  2186
  United Kingdom has ceased to be a member of the International Wheat Council. Admittedly, the case is somewhat unusual. I know of no other in which there is located in London an international body of which this country used to be a member and of which it is no longer a member. However, that is here the case, and we are faced with a rather awkward situation.
  Unless we proceed as is suggested in the new Clause, we shall be forced to impose taxation on these salaries. That, I am bound to say, would be regarded by our former associates in the Organisation as—although within our legal rights—somewhat oppressive behaviour. I would further suggest to the House that it is a good thing to encourage international organisations to have their seat in London. Were this new Clause accepted, the financial consequences would be quite trivial. We are concerned, at the moment at any rate, with only four non-United Kingdom employees of the International Wheat Council, and their salaries average £450 a year. The amount of taxation involved is extremely small and the case for this Clause rests, not on any particular hardship, but on the basis that this is the sort of behaviour which this country ought to show to an international organisation of which it was once a member.
  5.0 p.m.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I think it might be convenient to discuss the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) to leave out lines 7 to 10, on the Question "That the Clause be read a Second time," and divide on the Amendment, if necessary, after the Clause has been read a Second time.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: I would have liked—and I gather that it is in accordance with your suggestion, Mr. DeputySpeaker—formally to move my Amendment, and then—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No, the idea was that we should discuss it now, and then after the Clause has been read a Second time, it can be moved and a Division can take place upon it if necessary.
  Mr. Fletcher: If you please, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.

  2187
  I noticed that the Financial Secretary was studiously silent about subsection (2) of this new Clause, and I was surprised that he devoted almost the whole of his speech to attempting to justify what should be done in future. He has made no attempt whatever to explain why he thinks this new Clause should have retrospective effect. I can only conclude that his silence is due to considerable embarrassment on his part, bearing in mind that he used to regale us, when he was in Opposition, on the vices of retrospective legislation.
  Now the right hon. Gentleman brings forward a new Clause which blatantly proposes that the law should go back to an earlier date nearly a year ago, and there is not one word of explanation from him about it. I can well understand that he felt that he should try to cover up this lamentable failure by a reference to international good manners—not that I think that we should accept him necessarily as being the last word on that subject.
  In view of the right hon. Gentleman's silence, I must ask him some questions. Am I right in thinking that since the United Kingdom ceased to be a member of the International Wheat Council, the employees of that Council who are not United Kingdom citizens have been liable for tax? I assume that the answer to that question is in the affirmative. Then I should like to know whether they have, in fact, been paying tax. Presumably, tax under the P.A.Y.E. system has been deducted from their salaries since the date when they became liable for tax. Am I right in thinking that that is the case?
  Thirdly, have we had any representations either from the International Wheat Council itself, or from any member of the Council, that legislation should be introduced in this House to give the members of that Council the immunity which the Financial Secretary seeks to give them, or is this something which is sponsored by the Government of their own volition?
  In the absence of answers to those questions, it is a little difficult to comment on the merits of the proposal as it stands. The amount of tax involved is so small that I would have thought that it was not worth making a great deal of fuss about. But there is a question of principle involved, and there are some
  2188
  people who feel that there must be some limit to the immunities from United Kingdom Income Tax that are enjoyed by international organisations of one kind or another. I would have thought that, taking the matter by and large, this country has been rather generous on that subject and that we have gone as far as most taxpayers would have thought we were justified in going in granting immunity from tax to members of international organisations.
  The number of international organisations with non-United Kingdom employees is growing. Some of these organisations are Government-sponsored and some are not, but there must be a limit to this, and I think it is probably very salutory that the Government should have been compelled to seek to justify this proposal to the House. I do not know what my hon. Friends think about it, with regard to the future, but I take the strongest objection to making a provision of this kind retrospective, without having the information which we require. If an attempt is to be made to justify retrospective legislation, we must be told why it is necessary.
  If the Government think that this is such a good thing, why did not they propose it before? Why leave it until this Finance Bill? They may say that they did not think of it before. If so, when did they think of it? The Chancellor may say that we did not leave the International Wheat Council until July last year. But the Government knew before July that they were going to do so, and, if necessary, they could have made some provision in last year's Bill. Why did they not introduce legislation as soon as it became necessary, rather than leave it until now? Why did not this provision appear in the Finance Bill when it was first printed? Why leave it until the Report stage?
  We have a good many new Clauses and our time is limited. It seems to me to be rather unsatisfactory that the matter should be dealt with in this way. Whatever the House does about this new Clause, I hope that we shall not agree to subsection (2).
  Mr. Gaitskell: I hope very much that we shall have a reply to the pertinent questions put by my hon. Friend. I agree that some explanation must be given about what has been happening

  2189
  since the end of July last year in the case of the taxation of the persons concerned. Equally, I think we must be told why the Government have discovered this difficulty only after all this time has elapsed—I presume that must be the explanation—and have come forward with this new Clause at this late stage.
  I think that probably my hon. Friends will agree that on the merits of the proposal, we should not wish to oppose it. I agree with the Financial Secretary that it is, no doubt, a matter of international courtesy that we should continue to grant the same tax concessions to the employees of the International Wheat Council although we have ceased to be members. But it is a very strange situation to have an international body obtaining concessions under our tax laws although we are not members of that body.
  We are very glad to see in the Chamber the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and it would be helpful if he could tell the House what is the prospect. Is the Wheat Council likely to remain in England, or is the headquarters moving, or is it hoped that if it stays here, Her Majesty's Government may change their minds and rejoin the Wheat Council?
  This proposal which we are now considering creates a very curious situation. Suppose that 10 years hence we are still outside the Wheat Council and it still has its headquarters here. Shall we still continue to grant these tax concessions? I think that a good deal depends on how long the present situation is likely to continue. If we could have a few words from the Joint Under-Secretary, I think it would help the House to come to a decision.
  Captain J. A. L. Duncan: This is a very unusual proposal, and I think that some of us on this side of the House ought to ask for an assurance that it is not regarded as a precedent. On the Order Paper, awaiting approval, there are eight Motions concerning diplomatic immunities to be accorded to members of various organisations. We have not reached them yet, but we shall have to discuss them some time before the end of this Session. We might leave any one of those organisations, in which case a similar situation would arise. I do ask my right hon. Friend to give the House an assurance
  2190
  that this case will not be treated as a precedent, in case a similar situation arises in connection with any other of these organisations. I suppose it would be out of order to congratulate my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister of Food for his decision to leave the International Wheat Council, but I should like to do so. I think he was perfectly right.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will answer the question put by the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell). It may be that we shall want to rejoin the International Wheat Council in the future it may pay us to do so. What are the terms upon which we can rejoin? They may provide one good reason for the action that is proposed in this case. I should like my right hon. Friend to explain the meaning of subsection (3). Unless there is a hidden meaning behind it it seems to be an unnecessary piece of verbiage.
  Lastly, I would point out that there were two ways of dealing with this matter—this way, or by amending the International Organisations (Immunities and Privileges) Act, 1950. I consider that my right hon. Friend has chosen the right way. It is very much better to deal with it in this way than to try to amend the Act. I do not oppose the Motion because I realise that it deals with an exceptional situation, but I hope that my right hon. Friend will give the assurances for which I have asked.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: With the leave of the House, I should first like to reply to the points raised in connection with the proposed new Clause and then come to the question of retrospection which was raised by the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher). The right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) said that the situation with regard to the International Wheat Council was an unusual one, and I agree. I know of no other organisation, with a seat in this country, of which we were once a member and no longer are.
  I cannot answer his question as to the length of time the International Wheat Council will remain in London, but I can say that we welcome its presence here. We think it is a good thing that international organisations should have their seats in London, and we hope that this

  2191
  one will remain. As we are not now a member, however, it is difficult to forecast what are its intentions.
  Mr. Gaitskell: If this situation continues for a long time, shall we not arrive at a curious position? As I understand, if we do not belong, and never have belonged, to an international organisation with a seat in London, we do not make tax concessions, yet we shall apparently continue to do so in this case, even if this organisation remains here for another 10 years. Surely the Financial Secretary ought to endeavour to discover the intentions of the International Wheat Council.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not think that we should put ideas of leaving into its head, but I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's point. He is quite right in saying that in the case of organisations to which we do not belong we have no power under the 1950 Act to grant tax immunity; hence the necessity for this new Clause, which deals separately with this body. To some extent that is the reply to the question asked by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Angus (Captain Duncan). He will have noted that the proposal relates solely to the International Wheat Council and does not give power to confer tax immunity upon any other body.
  My hon. and gallant Friend asked what was the meaning of subsection (3). That subsection ensures that the power given to us by the 1950 Act—to grant tax exemption to organisations to which we do belong—shall not be treated as being in any way affected by this specific provision which enables us to give tax exemption to a body to which we do not belong.
  5.15 p.m.
  I now come to the point raised by the hon. Member for Islington, East. I am sorry he thought that I should have dealt with the question of retrospection when I moved the Motion. I did not do so because I had seen his Amendment, and had no doubt that he would deploy his argument upon it either when he moved it or on the main Question, and I thought it would be more convenient to him, and possibly less tedious to the House, if I postponed what I had to say until I had heard what he had to say. I did not
  2192
  intend to let that aspect of the matter go by without any reference to it.
  The hon. Member referred to the fact that I have occasionally said one or two things upon the subject of retrospection, but I think he will agree that my criticisms of retrospection have been made in cases where tax has been imposed and not where relief has been granted. From the ordinary, commonsense point of view of the human interests concerned it is obviously quite a different matter to exempt someone retrospectively from tax than it is to impose a tax retrospectively. Therefore, the general arguments about retrospection do not apply to this case, where we are relieving a body from liability to tax.
  The hon. Member then asked what had been the position since the tax exemption lapsed on 31st July, 1953. The normal procedure of P.A.Y.E. is not open to us in this case. As the International Wheat Council is a collection or assembly of foreign Governments its employees are not subject to the P.A.Y.E. regulations. Whatever may be the position with regard to the tax liability of its employees, we have no power to impose upon the Council the duties we normally impose upon employers. Consequently, P.A.Y.E. cannot be applied to the salaries paid by it. In any event, whatever the House may decide about tax liability, we are not in a position to apply P.A.Y.E.
  If the House should decide not to grant this proposed exemption it would be necessary—in relation to the period from 31st July of last year to the end of the last financial year—to assess these people for Income Tax, and, in the normal way, such assessments would be made towards the end of the summer. The position with regard to that tax has not been prejudiced in any degree by the fact that the exemption lapsed on 31st July and that no tax has been levied, physically, upon them since then. The position is entirely open, and if the House decided that this Clause should not operate retrospectively, assessments could be served upon the people concerned in the ordinary way in a few weeks' time.
  I should like to explain why I think it is right to make this provision retrospective. I proceed on the assumption that the House is in favour of giving this exemption, at any rate, "as of now."

  2193
  as our American friends say. The question arises whether it is either right or sensible to levy it for the period between 31st July of last year and the date when this Bill comes into force. I think that the International Wheat Council and its employees would consider that we were being a little pernickety and, perhaps, even a little oppressive, if, having decided in principle to put through the House of Commons a provision giving a special exemption to these employees alone, we were none the less to levy a tax upon them in respect of the short intervening period.
  I think it would spoil the effect of what we are trying to do, and, in view of the fact that the amount of money involved is absolutely trivial, I think that we should be wrong to throw away a good deal of the impression which I hope that what we are doing will create. In view of those considerations, I hope that the House will be prepared to do the job properly and allow exemption to take effect as from 31st July last year.
  Mr. Mitchison: Is not this a case of coming clean? There is one significant question that the Financial Secretary has not answered, and that is, why this Clause did not appear in the Bill in the first place. Is it not a fact that, since Homer sometimes nods, and, I suppose even Macaulay did sometimes, the Board of Inland Revenue on this occasion overlooked the existence of these taxpayers as taxpayers and that, consequently, no steps were taken to collect tax from them?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In this case Homer has not nodded. The reason is that it is only in the last two weeks that representations have been made on behalf of the International Wheat Council.
  Clause read a Second time.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Does the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) wish to move his Amendment to the proposed new Clause, to leave out lines 7 to 10?
  Mr. E. Fletcher: In view of the very full explanation that the right hon. Gentleman has given the House, and as this is a small matter, I do not propose to move the Amendment.
  Clause added to the Bill.

  New Clause.—(ALLOWANCE FOR SUBSCRIPTION TO PROFESSIONAL ORGANISATION.)
  The Ninth Schedule to the Income Tax Act, 1952, shall be amended by the insertion after paragraph 7 of the following new paragraph:-
  "(7A) If membership of a specified professional organisation was one of the conditions of appointment to the office or employment of profit, the annual subscription for such professional organisation may be deducted from the emoluments to be assessed."—[Mr. Albu.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Mr. Austen Albu: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  This new Clause is to deal with what apparently many people may consider a small injustice in connection with allowances for expenses. Frequently in this House we have discussed expense allowances, sometimes at very high level. I freely admit that the figures here are comparatively small, although in present conditions even a small sum of money may be of considerable value to an individual. In any case, I remember a little bit of Latin which begins, "De minimis …". Here we are asking only for the rectification of a small injustice, but that does not make it less important to a large body of very important citizens.
  The difficulty arises out of the very controversial paragraph (7) of the Ninth Schedule of the Income Tax Act, 1952, which defines the allowance to be made for expenses for someone working as an employee. It arises out of words which I can never remember, and have had to write down, that the expenses "must be wholly, necessarily and exclusively incurred in the performance of the duties of the office." They are words which, I am quite sure, are engraved on the heart of my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton).
  6.30 p.m.
  It might appear that this is merely a question of interpretation and that it is open—as it is—to the inspector of taxes to interpret this Clause widely or narrowly. The class of persons concerned are those people—mostly professional engineers, though there are other professionally-qualified persons—who are employed generally by public authorities and who, as a condition of their appointment, are required to be members of a
  2218
  particular professional organisation. I do not say that this really applies in private industry, because in my experience there is no difficulty whatsoever in getting a private employer to say, as is perfectly true, that if he employs one in that capacity he requires one to be a member of a professional organisation. I got over it by saying that my membership was wholly, necessarily and exclusively incurred in the performance of my employment.
  These qualifications are frequently required in the professional Civil Service. It may not be generally known to hon. Members that in this country for many years the examinations for corporate membership, particularly of the engineering institutions, have been one of the leading methods of getting professional qualification. To prove that one had the necessary educational background, and the practical training and experience, one obtained the qualification by examination and the usual method of proposal for acceptance by the appropriate body. In the course of many years, these qualifications have come to be recognised if not necessarily as the only, at any rate the main, qualifications.
  Mr. Nabarro: Will the hon. Member define the words "professional organisation" in the title of the new Clause? Is he able to say whether, if my right hon. Friend accepted this new Clause, my annual subscription to the Institute of Directors would be covered by it?
  Mr. Albu: It is not possible for me to interpret the law, even after helping to make it. I can only answer that if the Institute of Directors requires examination, and some experience and standing before one can become a member, and if it is a recognised condition of employment, I suppose that would be the case. But that I very much doubt, because one thing which is quite clear about that Institute is that no qualifications whatever are required in order to be a member. Perhaps I may now return to the very serious basis of the argument.
  I was saying that these qualifications have now become recognised frequently as the main qualifications, particularly in the engineering industry. In proof of that, perhaps I can quote from some recent advertisements in the Press for qualified persons. Today in the "Manchester Guardian" the Department of

  2219
  Atomic Energy advertises for a design engineer of whom the qualifications required are:
  "…recognised engineering apprenticeship with Associate Membership of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, or equivalent …"
  In "The Times" of 9th June, the Mines Inspectorate of the Ministry of Fuel and Power advertised for a Deputy Principal Electrical Inspector of Mines and Quarries, and the advertisement said:
  "Candidates must be Corporate Members of the Institution of Electrical Engineers …"
  On the same day the Air Ministry advertised for civil engineers for duty in their Works Department. Among other things:
  "Candidates must be … Corporate Members of the Institution of Civil Engineers or Institution of Municipal Engineers."
  There was an advertisement on the same day for librarians for a number of different Departments—the Foreign Office, the Royal Air Force College at Cranwell and so on—and the qualification was that:
  "Candidates must be Fellows or Associates of the Library Association or hold the Diploma of the London School of Librarianship."
  It can therefore be seen that, to obtain many of these appointments, one must already be a member of one of these associations. To those hon. Members who do not understand these matters, I can say that one does not just pass an examination. One has to be elected a member and pay the appropriate subscription, which runs to five, six or seven guineas a year.
  This is not the first time that this matter has been raised. On other occasions when it has been raised the attitude of the Treasury has been based either on ignorance or an over-legalistic view. If the Financial Secretary is to reply, I hope that we shall not again get a piece of over-legalism. Last year I wrote to him on the subject, and in return received a most interesting and complicated letter. I was asking, not for legislation but for an interpretation of the present law in favour of the people of whom I am speaking. The letter I got back was, to say the least, Treasury legalism at its very worst. It is perfectly true that in his letter the Financial Secretary did not deny
  2220
  "…that the Government very frequently prescribe membership of a professional organisation as a condition of appointment to professional grades in the Civil Service."
  Then he went on:
  "But conditions of employment are quite another matter. The question is whether it is necessary for the Government as an employer to prescribe, either expressly or by implication, that continued membership of the appropriate institution is a sine qua non for continued employment in the job."
  In other words, one has to have paid the subscription and become a member of the professional institution to get the job, and after that it does not matter what one does. If the Treasury is saying that it does not care whether or not its professional officers, its scientists and engineers remain members of the professional institution, it is very ignorant of what these institutions do. Such institutions do not only qualify members by examination. They publish papers, hold conferences and meetings and keep the qualified man up to date with new ideas, changes and so on occurring in his profession. It must surely be to the advantage and interest of the Government service, and of the public service generally, that a man should continue to be a member of one of these institutions and, if necessary, if not one already, to become a full member.
  What we are asking is that where it is a condition of appointment that one must be a member of one of these bodies, it is only right that the subscription to that body should be allowed as expenses. We are not asking that any organisation shall be recognised as a professional body. Surely the appropriate Government Departments and the Treasury are capable of deciding the qualifications they require for particular jobs. I assume that the Civil Service Commission decides that. The Financial Secretary brings prejudice into the matter. He tries to make out that what I am asking for would mean that if a member were ever to resign from his appropriate professional body—and here I quote:
  "…he must ipso facto be sacked."
  What a strange mixture of Latin and slang. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman did not say:
  "He must ipso facto be dismissed from his appropriate employment."
  Then he said:
  "I hope that, on reflection, you will not think that this is either mean or dishonest."

  2221
  I consider it both.
  "I do not want you to conclude from what I have said anything definite one way or the other about whether the expenses of membership should be allowed for Income Tax purposes: that is quite a separate question. I am dealing only with the question of what it is right for the Government, as an employer, to put in their rules about employment."
  No employer can behave in that way and get out of his responsibilities. It is most extraordinary. I presume that the Treasury cannot bring pressure on the Inland Revenue on the interpretation of the law, but in the circumstances surely the proper thing to do is to accept the new Clause to put the matter beyond doubt. The Treasury is unwilling to say that what is a condition of appointment is also a condition of employment. If this is the sort of thing with which the colleagues of my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby have to deal, I can only say that dancing on the point of a needle is nothing compared with it.
  Mr. Houghton: That is the sort of thing we have to say.
  Mr. Albu: No doubt my hon. Friend will support me in this attempt to simplify the law so that the officials do not have to deal with these almost impossible contradictions.
  The position is clear. The Inland Revenue cannot interpret the present provision in favour of the people of whom I am speaking because the Treasury is unwilling to say that what is a condition of appointment is also a condition of employment. Therefore, let us alter the law. It would cost the Treasury practically nothing and it would give a lot of satisfaction to many valuable Government servants.
  We have heard a good deal from hon. Members opposite about the effect of the redistribution of incomes and taxation on the professional classes. This would apply, on the whole, not to the very high level but to the medium level of the professional classes. Let the Treasury accept a fair and just change to put the law beyond doubt.
  6.45 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: I beg to second the Motion.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) has spoken with his usual penetration and shown that this
  2222
  matter is of considerable concern to professional people. These arguments have been before the House on previous occasions under various Governments but, because they have been considered before and injustice has been done in spite of the strength of the arguments, there is no reason why the matter should not be considered again.
  I want to stress the difference between the professional man—the engineer, the technologist and the architect—in practice on his own account and the professional man employed by a public body or corporation. The man in business on his own account, whether he be architect, technologist or doctor, is allowed his subscription to his learned body or society. The membership of this society is often determined by examination and the membership is a recognition of qualification and standing. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) referred, I think jokingly, to the Institute of Directors.
  Mr. Nabarro: No. I was serious.
  Mr. Palmer: All right. It comes to the same thing, probably. I should regard the Institute of Directors as a kind of trade union though it is not quite so respectable as others.
  Mr. Nabarro: Is not it now patently clear that the whole purpose of the new Clause is to secure that a trade unionist's subscription to his trade union shall escape assessment for Income Tax?
  Mr. Palmer: No. That intervention shows that the hon. Gentleman does not understand the purpose of the new Clause at all. The reason a subscription to the Institute of Directors would not be included is that such a subscription is of the nature of a trade union subscription and we do not ask for them to be included. The new Clause has nothing whatever to do with trade union subscriptions.
  The new Clause deals entirely with membership of a specified learned society or a scientific body. The kind of bodies we have in mind are the Royal Institute of British Architects or the Institutions of Electrical, Mechanical or Civil Engineers, which are not trade unions and which have Royal Charters. The point I was making is that a man in private practice can get an allowance for his

  2223
  subscription to such a body because it can be counted as an expense against his business under Schedule D. However, if the same man gives up business and accepts employment with a public authority or with a corporation, or a private employer for that matter, he can no longer get the allowance against his income. In other words, he must pay Income Tax on a sum of money which he never receives but which goes out so that he can carry on in his work efficiently and effectively.
  I do not think that any man joins a learned or a scientific society for fun though he may get some fun of a kind afterwards as a by-product, but he joins in order to further his work and to make himself more efficient as a member of the working community. I should think that that argument would commend itself to the hon. Member for Kidderminster. He knows that the country needs more trained, scientific and technical people of every kind. It needs professional people who are serious and zealous about their work. They should be encouraged as a matter of public policy.
  In the past the matter has been one of definition. I put down a similar new Clause some years ago and I think that on that occasion we also proposed a Schedule to deal with the difficulty of definition. On this occasion the Clause is drawn fairly narrowly. It is confined to membership of a recognised professional body if that is made a condition of appointment in the first place.
  My hon. Friend quoted a few examples. I propose to quote two from the current issue of the "Electrical Review." Here is an advertisement showing that the Yorkshire Electricity Board's head office wants a second assistant engineer on distribution design. It says,
  "Applicants should be corporate members of the Institution of Electrical Engineers."
  That is an example, and here is another:
  "Kent County Council. Senior Electrical engineers. Applications are invited from chartered electrical engineers for two appointments as above."
  I should have thought that those examples greatly strengthened the very moderate arguments which my hon. Friend has advanced. The Clause is drawn very narrowly—so narrowly that,
  2224
  in the circumstances, I should have thought that the Economic Secretary could have accepted it.
  Sir William Darling: I have a good deal of sympathy with, and I hope understanding of, the Clause. There is something to be said for it, but the difficulties seem to me to be greater than the advantages. If the Clause were accepted, I think we should find a great increase in the number of societies seeking to become, in the terms of the Clause, "specified professional organisations." Already there are a great number of them, and the Clause is an incitement to the formation of societies which would come within the description. I do not think that would be a very good thing for the existing societies, which have a standing of their own.
  Some remarks of a derogatory character have been made about the Institute of Directors. Would it be qualified under the Clause? I take it that it would, because it is a professional body and one cannot become a member of it unless one is a director. I happen to be a director of a company and I can say that becoming a director is a long, tiresome and tedious business. I understand the envy of hon. Members opposite, who could not qualify, because, in the words of George Bernard Shaw, in his opinion they lacked even the ability to be directors of a whelk stall. He said that, admittedly, some time ago.
  Mr. Edward Evans: Would the hon. Gentleman tell me when the examinations for the Institute of Directors take place? Are they held annually, quarterly or biennially? What is the composition of the board of examiners?
  Sir W. Darling: It would not be proper for me to take this opportunity to give in detail the qualifications for membership of the Institute of Directors, but the address is Palace Chambers, Victoria, and any inquisitive Opposition Member of Parliament can, by applying there, learn, undoubtedly to his disappointment, that he may not be eligible for membership. The qualifications are indeed very high—rightly so, because the direction of successful industry in this country is a task in which those engaged cannot be too highly qualified. I hope the Institute will be encouraged by hon. Members opposite, who I believe desire to augment

  2225
  their income in one way or another. Possibly this seems a suitable opportunity.
  There is something more important in the plausible arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) and his colleague, the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Palmer). The terms of the new Clause refer to membership of a "specified professional organisation." The National Union of Teachers is a professional organisation, and rightly so. It has no political associations of a marked character. Does the hon. Member for Edmonton think that every teacher in the country should, under the Clause, be entitled to deduct from his Income Tax the contribution which he makes to this professional Society?
  May I take it a little further and draw attention to the National Association of Local Government Officers. Hon. Members opposite may say that it is a trade union, but it is also a professional body the qualifications are high and it has standards of examination. Is it seriously contended that members of this trade union—no doubt reputable and proper trade union—may deduct their trade union contributions from their Income Tax?
  Mr. Nabarro: That is what hon. Members opposite are after.
  Mr. Palmer: The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) completely misunderstands the point. It would have to be a condition of appointment, and although employers may encourage trade union membership, it is hardly likely to be a condition of employment.
  Sir W. Darling: The hon. Member is suprisingly ill-informed on labour and trade union matters. Most hon. Members are aware that many local authorities demand that their employees shall he members of a trade union. They insist upon it as a condition of employment. If the hon. Member reflects, he will remember one which was prominent in the news quite recently—the County of Durham.
  The new Clause is an ingenious device, put forward with all the commanding plausibility which a not-too-successful director, now Member of Parliament for Edmonton, is able to command. Once this Clause is passed, no trade union will be satisfied until it is prescribed as "a specified professional organisation,"
  2226
  and trade union subscriptions, quite proper in their place, will be deducted from Income Tax; and an increase in the income of the Labour Party will thereby be secured. I hope that, in the interests of the taxpayers and in the highest public interest, this Clause will be rejected.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. R. Maudling): This Clause is one of the facets of the rather complicated problem of what are allowable expenses under what used to be Rule 9 of Schedule E of the Income Tax Act and is now in the Income Tax Act, 1952—the interpretation of the phrase
  "wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred in the performance of the duties of"
  the particular office.
  The law has been laid down by Parliament and the interpretation of that phrase is in the hands of the courts; and the Inland Revenue, like the Treasury, is bound by what the courts say in the matter of interpretation. It has been clearly held in a number of cases that there is a difference between expenditure necessarily incurred in the performance of the duties of an office and expenditure incurred in order to make one fit to carry out those duties. For example, expenditure on books required for study in order to obtain certain knowledge before taking on the job is not allowed. Expenditure incurred in travelling to work in order to put oneself in a position to do the job is not allowed. Expenditure incurred in travelling in performing one's duties at work is allowed. That is a fairly clear principle which is laid down. It is one to which the Inland Revenue has to work it has no alternative.
  In the case of the subscriptions to learned societies and professional organisations, the classic case was Simpson v. Tate, 1925—a case in which a county medical officer was paying subscriptions to the Royal Society of Medicine and other similar royal and public institutions. These subscriptions were not a condition of his employment and it was clearly held by the court in those circumstances that they could not be deducted for Income Tax purposes.
  On the other hand, these subscriptions can be deducted where they are a definite and continuing condition of employment in order to enable the individual to carry out his duties with efficiency; where they

  2227
  are necessarily expended in the performance of the individual's duties, then they are allowed. Where that condition cannot be met, they are not allowed.
  What the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) seeks in the new Clause is that we should take this form of expenditure out of the general run of expenses and treat it differently—that we should say, in the case of subscriptions to professional organisations, that they should be treated differently from the normal run of expenditure incurred by people in connection with their employment. He is asking that the normal rules dealing with
  "wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred in the performance of the duties"
  shall not apply in this case.
  Dr. H. Morgan: May I ask a question about medicine and expenses allowed in this field? I am a member of the British Medical Association, although I disagree with its policy in most respects, and I also want to be a member of the Royal Society of Medicine which, in the case of my speciality—industrial diseases—offers one of the few places where I can get the requisite books.
  Will the Economic Secretary agree with me in recognising as a legitimate expense, from the point of view of earning my own living, my subscription to the Royal Society of Medicine, which is necessary in order to enable me to obtain necessary literature in following what is a comparatively rare speciality? Can he tell Me whether any improvement in the situation is to be expected, and whether this subscription will now be allowed as a legitimate expense for a professional man like myself doing a specialist job?
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. Maudling: I should hesitate to intervene in any question concerning the hon. Gentleman's own Income Tax.' He can get all the information he requires on that subject elsewhere, and I cannot debate the matter with him, not knowing whether he pays Income Tax under Schedule E or Schedule D. It is a very difficult matter.
  I do not feel that we could accept this proposal for changing the law relating to expenses in this particular regard, but I am advised that it is a matter which is now being considered by the Royal Commission. It is particularly the sort of
  2228
  complicated point on which it would be very much worth while to have the advice of the Royal Commission, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, while my right hon. Friend cannot accept this proposal at the present moment, he will be very glad to look at it again when he has received, in addition to the advice of the hon. Member, the advice of the Royal Commission.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: Can I ask the Economic Secretary a question? He has said that the matter is being considered by the Royal Commission. Are we then to have a further report from the Commission on the taxation of the income of individuals?
  Mr. Maudling: The Interim Report has covered a number of points. No doubt, we shall in due course have another report covering all other matters considered.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: As usual, the Economic Secretary has taken refuge in a possible report on this matter which may be presented at some future time, but that does not alter the facts, as far as we see them. It is true, as many hon. Members are aware, that we have discussed this matter on several occasions in past years, but, again, that is no reason why, having discussed the general proposal before and Governments having turned it down, this Government should turn down this particular Clause if, in the view of the House as a whole, the Clause is a good one.
  I listened very carefully to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling), who, as usual, gave us a very humorous speech, which was quite beside the point. Over and over again, from this side of the House, it has been asserted that we are not here trying—although there is no reason why we should not do so—to get special treatment for trade unionists. If we were, we should only be trying to put trade unionists on all fours with members of the Federation of British Industries, because, so I understand, the subscription to the F.B.I. is allowed to count in this way, and if those people are allowed to count their subscription as an expense, why on earth should not lesser people—if they are lesser people—also be allowed to count their subscriptions to a trade association or to a trade union?

  2229
  This Clause is very limited in its scope, and sets out to do one simple thing, It concentrates on the proposition that the annual subscription, which professional men and women have to pay to their professional organisation, where the subscription is obligatory on the individual, should rank for tax allowance.
  The Economic Secretary quoted the case of Simpson v. Tate, which is the leading case on this particular point. There, as the hon. Gentleman very rightly said, the court decided against Mr. Tate, who was a medical officer of health. The hon. Gentleman did not, however, point out to the House that the Special Commissioners, who dealt with the matter before it went to the High Court, granted Mr. Tate his case. In their view, it was a reasonable one. Mr. Tate, however, was not putting forward the narrow claim which would be accepted if this Clause were passed. Mr. Tate was asking for relief on subscriptions to a number of learned societies which, though good in themselves, and did assist him in his professional work, were certainly not obligatory on one holding the position he did.
  What we should like to ask the Economic Secretary is this question: Why is it
  that a taxpayer who is taxed under Schedule E is not able to get an allowance of this kind, whereas another individual who is fortunate enough to be assessed under Schedule D can do so? It seems to us grossly unfair that this differentiation should exist, and some time this matter will have to be looked into. Why is it that some individuals who, some people would think partly by chance, are assessed to Income Tax under Schedule D are allowed to set off quite a number of items which no one assessed under Schedule E can get?
  This Clause would help to redress the balance a bit for professional people. I had thought up to now—indeed, I was almost certain—that hon. Members on the other side of the House would have jumped at the chance to support professional men and women to receive these allowances and are surely entitled to them. I do not know how my hon. Friends feel, but for my part I feel strongly on this matter. It is an injustice, and, that being so, I invite them to go into the Lobby in support of the Clause.
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 204 Noes, 254.

  Division No. 191.]

  AYES

  [7.7 p.m.

  Albu, A. H.

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

  Allen, Arthur (Besworth)

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Dear, G.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Holman, P.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Awbery, S. S.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Edelman, M.

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Balfour, A.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Bartley, P.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Beattie, J.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Bence, C. R.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Benson, G.

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Blackburn, F.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Janner, B.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Boardman, H.

  Follick, M.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. D.

  Forman, J. C.

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Bowden, H. W.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Glanville, James

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Keenan, W.

  Burke, W. A.

  Grey, C. F.

  Kenyan, C.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Clunie, J.

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Kinley, J.

  Coldrick, W.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Collick, P. H.

  Hannan, W.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freds

  Hardy, E. A

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Cove, W. G.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Hastings, S.

  McGovern, J.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mclnnes, J.

  Dalnes, P.

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Healy, Cahir (Fermanagh)

  McLeavy, F.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Popplewell, E.

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Porter, G.

  Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Price, Philip (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Manuel, A. C.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Thornton, E.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Pryde, D. J.

  Timmons, J.

  Mason, Roy

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Tommy, F.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Rankin, John

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Mellish, R. J.

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Usborne, H. C.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Wallace, H. W.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Rhodes, H.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Moody, A. S.

  Richards, R.

  Weitzman, D.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Morley, R.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  West, D. G.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

  Ross, William

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Mort, D. L.

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Moyle, A.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Short, E. W.

  Wigg, George

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Wikins, W. A.

  O'Brien, T.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Willey, F. T.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Williams, Rev. Llewelyn (Abertillery)

  Oswald, T.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Padley, W. E.

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Willis, E. G.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Pannell, Charles

  Steele, T.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Parker, J.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Yates, V. F.

  Paton, J.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Pearson, A.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Peart, T. F.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Mr. Holmes and

  Mr. James Johnson.

  NOES

  Aitken, W. T.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Arbuthnot, John

  Deedes, W. F.

  Holt, A. F.

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Astor, Hon. J, J.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA

  Horobin, I. M.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Donner, Sir P. W.

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Banks, Col. C.

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Barber, Anthony

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Barlow, Sir John

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Drewe, Sir C.

  Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

  Beach, Mai. Hicks

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Eccles, Rt Hon. Sir D. M.

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Black, C. W.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Bossom, Sir A. C.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Braine, B. R.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Fort, R.

  Kaberry, D.

  Brooke, Henry (Hempstead)

  Foster, John

  Kerby, Capt. H. B

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  Kerr, H. W.

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

  Lancaster, Col. C. C

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon P. G. T

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Garbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Godber, J. B.

  Lindsay, Martin

  Campbell, Sir David

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Carr, Robert

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Gower, H. R.

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Channon, H.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W)

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Low, A. R. W.

  Cole, Norman

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Colegate, W. A.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Heath, Edward

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Hill. Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  2232

  2233

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Teeling, W.

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir Reginald

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon. W)

  Marlowe, A. A. K.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Marples, A. E.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Tilney, John

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Maude, Angus

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Maudling, R.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Turton, R. H.

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C

  Rogers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Mellor, Sir John

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Russell, R. S.

  Vosper, D. F.

  Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Wade, D. W.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Scholfield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

  Mott-Radclyffe, c. E.

  Scott, R. Donald

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Weave, Airey

  Shepherd, William

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W)

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Webbe, Sir M. (London & Westminster)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Wellwood, W.

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Speir, R. M.

  Williams, David (Tonbridge)

  O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N)

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Wills, G.

  Page, R. G.

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Storey, S.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Pitman, I. J.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Mr. Studholme and

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Summers, G. S.

  Mr. Redmayne.

  New Clause.—(GENERAL SCALE OF RATES OF ESTATE DUTY.)
  In relation to estates of a principal value not exceeding five thousand pounds, the following scale of rate of estate duty shall be substituted for the scale set out in the Seventh Schedule to the Finance Act, 1949:—

  Principal Value of Estate

  Rate per cent. of duty

  Not exceeding £3,000

  Nil

  Exceeding £3,000 but not exceeding £4,000

  1

  Exceeding £4,000 but not exceeding £5,000

  2

  Provided that if the rate or amount of duty which would have been charged on any estate or interest in property of any kind whatsoever other than that on which duty is charged under this section would have been less had this section not been enacted, the rate and amount of duty charged or to be charged on such other estate or interest shall be the same as it would have been if this section had not been enacted.—[Mr. Dalton.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Mr. Speaker: I observe that later on the Order Paper there is a new Clause proposed by the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton)—[Estate duty (extension of certain exemptions)]. These two new Clauses seem to cover the same ground, and can be discussed together, if that be convenient to the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] So be it.
  7.15 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Dalton: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  It is interesting to note that even at this late hour the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton) has been kind enough to put down a new Clause which, so far as I can judge, is identical in purpose with that which I am now moving. I hope that, if the Government are obstinate, the right hon. Member will find his way into the same Lobby as myself.
  The purpose of the proposed Clause is to give further relief at the lower end of the Estate Duty scale to the smallest, and only to the smallest, estates. I would have been glad if it had been possible to discuss this matter at the Committee stage, but in the form in which the proposed Clause was then put down it was held to be out of order. Having taken expert advice, we have now brought the matter into order by adding a proviso, which is a remarkable example of legal English. I do not think I need recite it, but I am assured that the words beginning
  "Provided that if the rate"
  and concluding with the words
  "had not been enacted"

  2235
  remove any possibility that this change in the scale of Estate Duty at the lower end might, even indirectly and subsequently, increase the charge upon some second party to a settlement or some other person remotely interested. I am glad to find that the proposed Clause is therefore in order and can be debated.
  As the Chancellor of the Exchequer will recall, it was the great Sir William Harcourt, founder of the modern Estate Duty who, in 1894, gave it its present shape and initially fixed the level of exemption at £100, a very low figure indeed. In the intervening period, a number of Chancellors of the Exchequer have modified the scale, but, curiously enough, not for more than 50 years was any modification made at the bottom of the scale. For example, Mr. Asquith—I will cite one or two cases to illustrate what occurred—in 1907 touched up, if I may use such a colloquialism, the Estate Duty scale, but did nothing at the bottom end. He put up the rates on the larger fortunes.
  Mr. Lloyd George twice, while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, touched up the Estate Duty scale, first in 1909 and again in 1914. After the First World War, Sir Austen Chamberlain set an example to Labour Chancellors of the Exchequer by doubling the rate of duty on the very highest estates, over £2 million. Indeed he more than doubled the rate: that should be remembered by Conservatives as part of their tradition. The late Sir Austen Chamberlain, seeking to reorganise our finances after the First World War, felt that the highest estates should pay more. The present Prime Minister was of the same opinion in 1925. He steeped the scale. Finally, before the Second World War, Lord Snowden, then Mr. Philip Snowden, did the same in 1930. During the war, I believe—I have not checked the later events because they are very well in our memory—both Sir John Simon, as he then was, and Sir Kingsley Wood further put up the scales.
  The extraordinary thing is that although those eminent men, belonging to the three parties, from time to time adjusted the scales, at no time did any of them make any improvement at the lower end, which remained as it was fixed by Sir William Harcourt, in 1894, at £100. Fifty-two years were to pass before
  2236
  any alleviation was brought to the poorer families who were subject to Estate Duty.
  In 1946 I suggested—I think the Opposition of that time accepted my proposal—that we should raise the level from £100 to £2,000. That is where it stands now. I can, therefore, claim that I was the first Chancellor since the time of Sir William Harcourt in 1894 to adjust the scale in that manner.
  I took great care, of course, to lose no revenue by doing this. I also adjusted the scale at the upper end to bring in a total of £22 million more revenue in that year, although I was able to exempt by raising the exemption level from £100 to £2,000—this illustrates another point that I wish to elaborate in a moment—no fewer than 75 per cent. of the estates which would otherwise have been liable. That is a very dramatic example of the grave inequality which prevails in regard to property passing on death, and it also reflects the grave inequality in the property owned by the living.
  One of the arguments in favour of raising the exemption limit which I employed during the debates of 1946 was that one is not only doing an act of distributive justice but also making great administrative savings, in that, evidently, fewer officials are required to keep track of the estates liable to duty if one reduces them to only a quarter of the previous number. That argument still has weight today, although it has less weight since we are now dealing with an exemption limit of £2,000 and not £100. Nevertheless, it still has weight in the proposal which I make to lift the exemption limit from £2,000 to £3,000.
  It is clear from the figures given in Table 102 on page 110 of the latest Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue that more than half of the estates which are now subject to duty, given the limit of £2,000 which I introduced in 1946 and which has not since been changed, lie in the range between £2,000 and £5,000. I hope that the Chancellor will be able to give us the effect of my proposal in terms of the number of estates which would be fully exempted.
  As a matter of statistical presentation, it would be rather interesting if the Inland Revenue Commissioners—they are very good; their Annual Report is one of the most interesting productions on our

  2237
  economic front—could, instead of giving us the figures in respect of the single range from £2,000 to £5,000, break the figures up and give us those in respect of the range from £2,000 to £3,000 or £3,500 and then from that figure up to £5,000 in order to break the figures into at least two brackets instead of one.
  According to the information that we get from the table, 52·8 per cent.—more than half—of the total number of estates subject to duty in the last recorded year lie within the range of £2,000 to £5,000; in other words, at the bottom of the scale. One of the advantages of accepting the proposed Clause would be that it would still further restrict—and restrict much more than in proportion to any loss of revenue, for that would be a trifle—the number of cases in which the Revenue authorities would have to be busy with the smaller estates after death. It would then be clearer even than it is now that many of them need not be examined in detail.
  H. G. Wells once used a phrase which I liked and have always remembered. Wells was in favour of many forms of property, but he said that inheritance was a fatty degeneration of property. I think that is a good description, particularly of the fat estates. It is in regard to such estates that in debates on Estate Duty the Opposition have argued that there was great merit in the duty in so far as it fell with considerable weight on the larger estates, thereby preventing an ever-increasing inequality of property ownership.
  I do not regard the very small estates at the lower end of the scale, where the proposed Clause is designed to operate, as falling within the picturesque phrase of H. G. Wells. When we are dealing with estates of £2,000 to £5,000, and even somewhat above that, we may regard them as being within the range which can reasonably be reached by an artisan or other person without large income or initial advantages.
  These estates at the bottom end should be dealt with tenderly. We should do justice all the way down the scale. Justice at the higher levels requires a high contribution, but at the lower levels—I hope that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) will later on give me his support for the proposed Clause—the time has come when we should take
  2238
  a further step along the road which I blazed eight years ago. Eight years is long enough to wait before taking another step along that path.
  With regard to cost, I have looked at Table 104 on page 113 of the Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. I will take the total net capital values in respect of the range between £2,000 to £5,000, which is £127 million. What I am proposing is to reduce the levy by 1 per cent. on the range from £2,000 to £4,000. On the range between £2,000 to £3,000 the levy is now 1 per cent., and I propose that it should be nothing at all. On the next level, on the range exceeding £3,000 but not exceeding £4,000, I propose that the levy should be 1 per cent. instead of the 2 per cent. which it is now. With regard to the range between £4,000 and £5,000, I propose that the levy should remain at its present level, and I propose that simply in order to continue the smooth graduation of the scale—if the Government proposed something more generous, I should advise my hon. Friends not to resist it—and to avoid a sharp break in the scale.
  My proposal only covers the first two brackets, and the cost would evidently be, on the basis of the figures which I have given, noticeably less than 1 per cent, of £127 million, the net capital value represented by the estates up to the £5,000 level, because the reduction to 1 per cent. does not go all the way but applies only to the range between £3,000 and £4,000. I guess—the Chancellor will no doubt have the exact figure—that the cost will be less than £1 million a year, and the Chancellor can surely spare that.
  This is less than the cost of the other Estate Duty relief in respect of family businesses, on which we had lengthy debates. This relief would be much more equitable than that. I do not want to reopen the debates on the other relief. Nevertheless, the relief which I propose would be wholly to the benefit of the smallest people. That cannot be said for the family business relief, for that does not do anything for a large number of the smaller people whom I have in mind hare, and the family business relief will also do something for a number of very wealthy people who are not, in my view, particularly deserving recipients of relief at this time. My proposal would be wholly for the benefit of the smallest

  2239
  estates, and it would cost less than the family business relief.
  7.30 p.m.
  I hope that the Chancellor will review this matter in a friendly way, that it will appeal to his sense of what it would be just and reasonable to do at this time. It would relieve estates which are very worthy of being further relieved, because eight years have passed since I raised the level on which Estate Duty should be paid from £100 to £2,000. The lot of the kind of people whom we have in mind has not improved in the last few years owing to the ever-rising cost of living due to the abolition of the food subsidies. These are a very deserving body of people whom I am commending to the Chancellor's attention.
  I should like the Chancellor to join me, when the history of these days is written, as a man who did care for the interests of the poorest section of those subject to Estate Duty. At present, I feel a little lonely—so far I stand alone in some lonely place—but I should like the Chancellor to join me. We could have most interesting talks about other things, too. Let us stand together on some high place below which there could be an inscription—it would go rather well in Latin, but I offer it in English—somewhat in these terms:
  "Alone among the Chancellors of the Exchequer in this modern age, while firmly collecting through the best of all taxes from the large estates of the rich their just contribution to the common good, he justly relieved the small estates of the poor."
  Mr. Ralph Assheton: As the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) said, the new Clause which appears later on the Order Paper in the names of myself and some of my hon. Friends deals with the same subject as the Clause which he has just moved. I am very tempted, of course, by the right hon. Gentleman's speech to disclose in full to the House the wide differences of opinion which exist between him and me on the subject of Estate Duty. I, for example, do not think that Estate Duty is a good form of tax. I never have thought so.
  I believe that if it is thought desirable, or necessary, to institute some form of capital tax, to institute it at the moment when the head of the family dies, and to levy it at the most difficult period in
  2240
  the life of a family or a business, is neither intelligent nor humane. I shall not, however, pursue the general argument, as, on this occasion. I do not want to upset the right hon. Gentleman because I am hoping in a little while to persuade him to support the new Clause which is down in my name. I want to convince him that in one or two details it has merits which his Clause lacks.
  The right hon. Gentleman tried to convince hon. Members on this side, that Conservative Chancellors of the Exchequer had constantly increased Estate Duty. I am sorry to say that several have, but most of them have been ex-Liberals. I represent a truer—
  Mr. Dalton: Sir Austen Chamberlain surely left the Liberal Party at a very early age?
  Mr. Assheton: He came from a very radical family. I suggest that my approach to this matter represents the Conservative point of view much more closely than did that of the late Sir Austen Chamberlain.
  Coming for a minute to the details of the Clause moved by the right hon. Gentleman, as far as I can understand it—I agree that these matters are extremely difficult and complicated—it provides that, where the settled property escapes Estate Duty on the first death, as a result of the Clause it should, nevertheless, be exempted on the second death. If this formula were adopted, it would create the rather curious situation that if Estate Duty is exempt on the first death by reason of it being under £2,000, it pays it on the second death, but if it is exempt because it is less than £3,000 but more than £2,000, then it is exempt en the second death as well.
  That certainly is not very defensible, and the new Clause which stands in my name goes further than the one moved by the right hon. Gentleman. Therefore, I feel sure that he will be glad to adopt it. It grants exemption on the second death in cases where Estate Duty is not paid on the first death because the value of the estate is below the new exemption limit.
  It also has another advantage over the right hon. Gentleman's Clause in that it clears up the general anomaly under which, under the existing law, an estate of just over £2,000—for example, an

  2241
  estate of £2,001—is franked against any rate of duty payable on the second death by a I per cent. payment on the first death, while an estate of, say, £1,999 is liable to a rate of Estate Duty arising on the second death because none was paid on the first death.
  Therefore, it seems to me that the wording of my proposed new Clause brings about more precisely what is in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman than does the Clause which he has actually moved. Of course, we shall no doubt hear from the Front Bench what the official view is on the matter, but I suggest that there are some advantages in my new Clause which are not in that of the right hon. Gentleman's. Therefore. I hope that hon. Members on this side of the House will agree to support it.
  On the general argument put forward by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland, I think there is great sympathy on this side of the House for the small estates. I should like to have seen the Clause put down in the name of the hon. Member for Burton (Mr. Colegate) and in that of the the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) adopted. That would have suited me much more, but I understand that it would have been very expensive. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland pointed out that, happily, this proposal does not cost a very great deal. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will be able to confirm that, and I wish to add my voice to that of the right hon. Gentleman in begging the Government to accept my Clause. It only goes a small way in the direction which we all want to go. Indeed, we on this side of the House want to go much further, but if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland is willing to help in a small way, then, as far as I am concerned, I want to go along with him.
  The right hon. Gentleman put to me the hypothetical question whether, if the Government rejected the new Clause, I would go into the Division Lobby with him. I do not think it necessary to answer hypothetical questions particularly as this seems such a desirable Clause and one which finds support on both sides of the House. I hope that I shall not be placed in the difficulty in which the right hon. Gentleman thought I might find myself. Therefore, at the appropriate
  2242
  time, I shall move the new Clause which stands in my name.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I think it will be to the convenience of the House if I rise now, because I think there is a chance of expediting the business on this matter. If we can make progress now, then we shall be able to make a real inroad into the work, and it will not be necessary to keep the House sitting too late. Otherwise, with the business projected for tomorrow, we may have a difficult time.
  That is not my sole reason for rising now, because we always try to listen to the different points of view. My reason for thinking that we can expedite matters is that the right hon. Gentleman who moved the new Clause and the right hon. Gentleman who followed him find me in a very agreeable mood this afternoon. When I listened to the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), I could not help thinking that he was staging a Bishop Auckland benefit. Certainly there was nothing lacking in his language extolling the praise of his own exploits in lowering the lower rates of Estate Duty, and he made a passing reference to the wounding fact that higher rates of Estate Duty were introduced by himself, as the House will remember, in 1949.
  Mr. Dalton: It was in 1946 that I made the change which we are now discussing. and I collected a little further revenue from Estate Duty by raising the rate on the higher scales. Sir Stafford Cripps, when Chancellor of the Exchequer consolidated—to get it on the record—Legacy and Succession Duty into Estate Duty.
  Mr. Butler: It took place in 1946 under the right hon. Gentleman and in 1949 under his successor—that is correct.
  The right hon. Gentleman suggested that I might meet him in another place in happier circumstances. I was not quite clear about whether he was referring to another place along the corridor, which would be an extremely unlikely eventuality for both of us—at least I hope so in my case—or whether he was imagining that we were to meet in the life hereafter, in which case I think it most unlikely that I shall be relegated to the same situation as that in which the right hon. Gentleman may

  2243
  find himself. It would be a situation altogether too warm for me. Whatever other place the right hon. Gentleman may have been referring to. I should certainly be glad to meet him and to discuss these points.
  His right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) complained earlier that the Government were not concerning themselves in the least about the more needy section of the population. This was a very unfair jibe which did not enliven our debate and created no intellectual stir in the Chamber. A situation arises today in which I can easily satisfy the right hon. Gentleman by saying that this is a reasonable advance and I should like to put the House out of pain by saying that I shall be ready to accept the Clause in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton).
  In view of the subject, I think it would be wrong if I did not explain to the right hon. Gentleman opposite the reason I prefer this Clause. I prefer it precisely for the reason given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, West, because subsection (2) and subsection (3) of my right hon. Friend's Clause more suitably meet the situation arising out of the passage of settled property as between spouses than the proviso which the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland invented so as to get his Clause in order. The reason is that in the case of the estate below £2,000—as explained by my right hon. Friend—there is no provision in the proviso of the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland about exemption. The exemption and the proviso are only provided for in the case of estates of between £2,000 and £3,000.
  Estates exempted below that would, on the passing of settled property from spouse to spouse on the death of the first, result in the second spouse having to pay death duty. That is not satisfactorily drafted and subsections (2) and (3) of my right hon. Friend's Clause cope with that situation, and preserve the situation for the second spouse. For that reason, I think that the second Clause is better than the first, and that is why I accept my right hon. Friend's Clause. The cost of this concession would be some £400,000 in the current financial year and about £900,000 in a full year.
  2244
  In the course of these Finance Bill debates, I have not been able to make many concessions—some would say any concessions—although some minor alleviations have been considered, and very rarely conceded. In this case I do not think that I should be altering the financial poise or balance of the country by making this small concession. I think that it will go to people who are certainly worthy of receiving it.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked me for further figures. It will exempt about 15,000 estates from duty and a further 12,000 from half the duty and so it will have a certain application. However, I should like to add, in taking up the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn. West, that in my opinion Estate Duty weighs heavily, not only on modest estates such as these, but as heavily, and with even more serious consequences for the country, on the larger estates. I have never been ashamed to say—I said it in a debate the other night—that I most radically disagree with the right hon. Gentleman's quotation from H. G. Wells, that there is a sort of fatty degeneration involved in this process.
  7.45 p.m.
  Mr. Dalton: In the larger estates.
  Mr. Butler: We are thinking of the future generation and not fatty degeneration. While it is possible to pass a degree of fatty degeneration from one generation to another, it is equally possible that one generation may pass to another most noble and excellent traditions and property, which is in the interests not only of the family, but of the country. I think that these things should be said, because the weight of the Estate Duty is such that it is affecting the continuity of some of our traditions. I do not wish, any more than does the right hon. Member, to perpetuate the wrong sort of habits or contributions to the welfare of our country, but we have great traditions and we should allow them to be carried on with that sense of service with which they have been accumulated, and that is the spirit in which we ought to envisage this matter.
  In answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, West, I would say that I am unable this year to make any major concessions for the very good

  2245
  reason set out in my original Budget speech—because the ordinary balance sheet of the country does not permit it. But we are tackling with determination the problems which I set out in my Budget speech with as much clarity as possible. The country is responding with increased production. Things are buoyant in the country. Things are improving. While, unfortunately, I have not been able to make further concessions this year, we must face the future with precisely that sort of cheerful feeling round our hearts which the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland had when he was Chancellor—and for not such a good reason as I have it myself.
  It would spoil the atmosphere of this discussion, and not enable us to proceed with the business as I want to proceed with it in accepting this Clause moved by my right hon. Friend, if I did not say that the remarks of the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland, although not entirely coinciding with my political philosophy or principles, were couched in an agreeable and kindly manner, and I hope that he and his hon. Friends will permit the business to proceed.
  Mr. Dalton: I am happy that the Chancellor has been able to accept in essence what I have been arguing for. It may well be that in some respects the provisos contained in the Clause of the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton) fit the marginal cases better than mine, and I would not debate that. I am glad that the Chancellor has accepted the new scale. That is the important thing—the changes at the bottom of the scale.
  I would not wish the debate on this subject to be further prolonged, but I am very glad that at any rate I was one of the initiating agents in, at long last, provoking a concession from the Chancellor which I am sure will benefit very much those who will enjoy it. There is no doubt that those who are deserving will benefit. Whatever view may be held about the remainder of the death duty scale, on this the Chancellor and I are in agreement, that this particular change will improve the death duty scale as a whole, and I therefore welcome his speech.
  I think that it might be convenient—and I am quite prepared to do so—if I asked leave to withdraw my Motion in
  2246
  order that the proposed new Clause in the name of the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West may be accepted.
  Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. Assheton: May I now be permitted to move my Motion formally?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): The two Clauses were discussed together but I will put the Question when we reach the proposed Clause in the name of the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton).

  New Clause.—(REDUCTION OF STAMP DUTIES ON CERTAIN CONVEYANCES OR TRANSFERS ON SALE.)
  (1) As from the first day of August, nineteen hundred and fifty-four, the stamp duties chargeable on the conveyance or transfer on sale of any lands, tenements, hereditaments or heritages or of any estate or interest in any lands, tenements, hereditaments or heritages shall, where the amount of value of the consideration for the sale does not exceed three thousand pounds, be such part of the duties which would have been chargeable immediately before that day as is mentioned in the next following subsection.
  (2) The parts referred to in the last foregoing subsection are—

  (a) where the amount or value of the consideration for the sale does not exceed two thousand five hundred pounds, one-half; and

  (b) where such amount or value as aforesaid exceeds two thousand five hundred pounds as to the first two thousand five hundred pounds thereof, one-half, and as to the excess over two thousand five hundred pounds, three-quarters.

  (3) This section shall be construed as one with the Stamp Act, 1891.—[Mr. Houghton.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Mr. Houghton: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  I do not know whether it is too much to hope that the Chancellor is in the same agreeable mood as he was during our discussion of the last new Clause. This Clause proposes a small concession in Stamp Duty on the transfer of small properties not part of a larger transaction, and it is linked directly to the Government's recent proposals for facilitating house purchase by mortgage arrangements set out in the circular of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government to local housing authorities on 4th May this year.
  In that scheme for assisted house purchase there is a limit on the guaranteed

  2247
  mortgage from building societies on the purchase price or value of the property. That limit is £2,500, and this new Clause proposes that Stamp Duty on houses valued up to £2,500 shall be halved, and that on the purchase price of houses between £2,500 and £3,000 the duty charged shall be three-quarters of the existing rate.
  The latter part of the proposal is merely to provide a sort of taper, but the essentials of the new Clause are to reduce the Stamp Duty on houses which people will be buying largely under the scheme of assisted house purchase set out in the circular of 4th May, 1954.
  I should like to draw attention to the burdens which accompany house purchase, even though the property may be small and the price relatively low. Take, for example, the purchase of a house -valued at £1,800. That, today, does not buy a mansion or anything luxurious. We are talking now of artisans' dwellings with a purchase price of about £1,800. Suppose that in this case the purchaser goes to the local authority and, through them, with the help of the building society, gets a loan of £1,620. Then the costs which the purchaser will have to bear in the case of an unregistered title will amount to £67 15s., made up As follows.
  The purchase costs will be £34 10s. the Stamp Duty on the conveyance will be £18, and it is that amount that this new Clause proposes to cut in half; the mortgage costs will be £11; the Stamp Duty on the mortgage will be £4 5s., making a total of £67 15s. That is a considerable sum for a purchaser to find on top of the lump sum deposit which he must put down in order to get the assistance of the building society and complete the purchase.
  If the purchase price of the house is £2,500 and the loan is £2,250, then the total cost on an unregistered title would amount to £89 15s. [Interruption.] I hope my right hon. Friends will allow me to make my speech.
  Mr. Dalton: We were discussing the force of my hon. Friend's argument.
  Mr. Houghton: I have my own opinion of what my right hon. Friends were talking about. They were talking about the concession given by the Chancellor on the
  2248
  last new Clause and the one that I am not going to get on this new Clause.
  I was saying that where the purchase price is the maximum amount permitted under the scheme to which I have referred, and the loan is £2,250, then the total cost in the case of an unregistered title would be £89 15s., and of that £25 would be the Stamp Duty. This new Clause proposes to cut in half the amount of Stamp Duty on the conveyance in the case of a house purchased separately and not part of a larger transaction, up to £2,500 in value. That is a very modest concession to ask for in order to bring nearer and more rapidly the property-owning democracy which is one of the aims and objects of hon. Members opposite. This is one of the occasions when those of us on these benches can assist in the realisation of the aim of hon. Members opposite.
  I want to make it clear that the concession does not apply to the transfer of stocks and shares. It is limited to property. I have no idea how much this concession would cost, but I hope that on this new Clause, as on the last, the amount of revenue lost would not damage the financial poise of the right hon. Gentleman's Budget this year. It would help to reduce the additional costs which some people find stand between them and buying a house. It is not within the power of this House, in this connection at least, to reduce the legal costs of purchase, and, therefore, the proposal that I am making is confined to halving the Stamp Duty.
  I trust that the Financial Secretary has been left by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer with his concession on this Finance Bill. Probably there should be fair shares in making concessions between Chancellors and their Financial Secretaries, and I hope that the Chancellor, when leaving the Chamber. left behind authority to the Financial Secretary to continue the agreeable mood which we found so pleasant a little while ago, and that his approach to this new Clause will be equally favourable.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: I beg to second the Motion.
  The advantage in following my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) is that he always expresses himself so lucidly and cogently that there

  2249
  is no need to say much in support. I think we can anticipate that we shall get this concession from the Government, because, at this stage of the Bill, they are in a concessionary mood. I do not think this concession will cost very much, and I certainly think that for good public and political reasons the Government ought to make this concession.
  I share the view held by many hon. Members opposite that we ought to encourage people to buy and own their houses. I have never made any bones about supporting the idea of a property-owning democracy. I think it is a good thing. That is why I was very critical of the Government's financial policy which caused the increase in the mortgage rates. It has deterred people from buying houses, and for that reason it is a very had thing.
  8.0 p.m.
  One of the very unfortunate incidents in house purchase is the surprise which faces the house purchaser when he discovers the costs he has to bear immediately upon the purchase of his house. Speaking recently at Rugby, I upset some local members of the Law Society by talking about these costs. Everyone hopes that it will be possible to reduce conveyancing costs, but the question has been examined and re-examined on many occasions without very much saving having been made. This proposal, however, allows for a very easy saving if the Chancellor will bear the burden.
  I realise that the Financial Secretary may point out that the Labour Party increased Stamp Duty in 1947. That is so, but that was a bi-partisan policy. I remember my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) saying that he was following the precedent of Mr. Austen Chamberlain, as he then was, in 1920, when he did the same thing. In 1947, I believe the general view of the House was that we should not place too heavy a burden upon the purchasers of what we call small properties. In fact, my right hon. Friend exempted what he believed to be the smaller properties from the increased Stamp Duty.
  I should have thought that, in the atmosphere which now pervades the House, this might well be one of the first concessions to be made to the purchaser. I can call in aid the Beaverbrook Press,
  2250
  as it is quite clear that that organisation has a very powerful influence upon the Government. On 29th June, the "Daily Express" advanced the general argument that everyone should be his own landlord. It pointed out that £18 had to be paid by way of Stamp Duty upon a property worth £1,800. That is a heavy burden on a person who is facing all sorts of expenditure, and the "Daily Express" was appealing to its friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, and asking, rhetorically, whom he should see about it. On the matter of Stamp Duty, it suggested that he should see the Chancellor, and it said:
  "Mr. Macmillan should ask him to ease this absurd tax and look elsewhere for revenue."
  Has the Minister seen his right hon. Friend and powerfully expressed this, point of view? If he has, I am quite sure that the Financial Secretary will take this opportunity to make this concession. If he does not, it will give the lie to a good deal of Tory propaganda. As the "Daily Express" went on to say:
  "If the Tories believe in encouraging people to buy their own houses, it is fantastic to deter them with taxes."
  That is the simple issue. This concession would not cost very much, and it would be a great encouragement to people who are buying their own houses. It is the policy of the Government to encourage house purchase. They are making a great deal of it; it is a cardinal point in their policy. Even from the narrow point of view of political expediency I should have thought that the Financial Secretary and the Chancellor would not be so stupid as to oppose the Beaverbrook Press in this matter.
  Therefore, I am most hopeful that the. Financial Secretary, making small easements as he has been doing in the Bill, will give way and provide this small solace to people who are facing these very real difficulties in setting up their own homes.
  Mr. Cyril W. Black: I am quite certain that hon. Members on this side of the House will be sympathetic towards the object of this Motion. We believe in making home ownership as easy as possible and bringing it within the reach of as many people as we can. Anything that can properly be done to reduce the cost of house purchase will be generally welcomed. At the same time

  2251
  I cannot fail to notice the extraordinary conversion which has taken place in the attitude of the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) and the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) upon this matter.
  I must refer quite briefly to its history during the last few years. Reference has already been made to the fact that in 1947 the then Government increased—I believe they doubled—the Stamp Duty which was then in existence. In doing so they made house purchase much more expensive. On 28th June, 1951, on the Report stage of the Finance Bill, I tabled an Amendment in terms very similar to those of the proposed new Clause. I moved that Amendment in a speech which very closely resembled the one which has just been made by the hon. Member for Sowerby, although I cannot claim that it achieved the persuasiveness that we all expect from him on any occasion when he addresses the House.
  At that time I was endeavouring to secure for small house purchasers a reduction in a Stamp Duty which was then about double the present rate. It is interesting to notice that on that occasion all six hon. Members whose names appear on the Order Paper in support of this proposed new Clause went into the Division Lobby against it and brought about the defeat of the purpose I had in view. If I had had their support on that occasion the object which they have in mind might have been achieved about three years earlier. I must point out the remarkable conversion which has taken place in the attitude of those hon. Members, although it is none the less welcome.
  Mr. M. Follick: We have come forward; hon. Members opposite have gone backwards.
  Mr. Black: Since I moved my Amendment in June, 1951, the present Government, with the very enlightened policy Which they have brought to bear in this matter, have given effect to the object I then sought to achieve and which was refused by the Government which was then in power. I am quite sure that it is entirely proper that hon. Members should bring this matter continually to the attention of successive Governments, and that we should all endeavour to secure reductions in the expenses connected with house purchase, but it is not inappropriate
  2252
  that Members should have their memories jogged and be reminded of the history of the matter.
  Mr. Houghton: Does not the hon. Member appreciate the vast difference between the conditions which obtained in 1947 and those of today? The Stamp Duty was doubled in 1947 to impose a tax on a good deal of property speculation and the transfer of houses at profiteering prices.
  Mr. Black: I am prepared to agree that since 1951 there has been a tremendous improvement in the fortunes of the country. I agree, furthermore, that that is reffected in the action of the present Government in approximately halving the Stamp Duty as it stood in June, 1951, when I was endeavouring to secure a reduction. Whether it is reasonable to go further is, of course, a matter that the Chancellor must consider.
  The point of my intervention is to draw the attention of the House to some of these matters which I feel some hon. Members might be in danger of forgetting and also to raise the question of whether, if the Chancellor is in a position to make any further concession, having regard to the concession he has already made in this particular field, this is the most worthy place in which, at the present time, a further measure of relief should be given.
  Mr. Barnett Janner: The hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Black), having had his little say, is evidently prepared to come into the Lobby with us in the event of the Government resisting the new Clause because he has explained quite clearly that he expected those of us who have our names to it to have gone into the Lobby against our own Government in 1951.
  Mr. Black: I should like to make clear to the hon. Member—perhaps it was not clear in my speech—that what I was seeking to achieve in June, 1951, was subsequently given by the present Government soon after they came into power. The objective I sought, in June, 1951, has now been achieved, and what the hon. Gentleman is now trying to achieve is something different.
  Mr. Janner: That being the case, I now understand that the hon. Member does not want the Stamp Duty on this

  2253
  kind of purchase reduced and is not prepared to support any suggestion to that effect. I will now tell him why he should. The circumstances in 1947 warranted the increase in the Stamp Duty. The difference today is this. I do not want to be aggressive, because we want a concession to be made and we want to give reasons to the Financial Secretary why he should accept what is a reasonable proposal. The Government are claiming that they are prepared to assist people of modest means to purchase houses for their own occupation. With that end in view there has been a great story made of the fact that the Government are encouraging building societies to advance up to 90 per cent. of the purchase money in cases where the price of the house is £2,500 or below.
  What is very much more important to realise is that a house which is sold for £2,500 today is not the kind of house that could have been purchased some years ago for a similar amount. The purchaser has to put aside out of his earnings what the Government consider to be the maximum that can be expected of him, namely, £250. The costs involved in a purchase of that kind are out of all proportion to that £250 which he has to find, and that is what we are talking about at the present time.
  We are asking the Financial Secretary to realise that the concession that was made in respect of the amount that could be obtained by way of loan is, to a very considerable extent, watered down by virtue of the fact that people who come within the category of those able to make a purchase of that kind of house have to pay a considerable sum in addition to the 10 per cent.
  Mr. Black: I do not know whether the hon. Member realises that the purchaser of the house to which he is referring is paying in Stamp Duty only half what he was paying in 1951.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. Janner: I have to be careful in this matter because I want a favourable reply to our request, but I would say that the hon. Member for Wimbledon, like all Members of his party, is always living in the past. Let us talk about the present and the future, especially the bright future that we can provide. We hope hon. Members opposite will assist us to provide it.
  2254
  The position is that this imposes a very considerable burden upon the person who wants to buy his own home. What we are asking for is, in fact, a small concession by the Government. The Government say that they are in sympathy with our new Clause. Let us have a little practical sympathy so that the person who wants to buy a house of this size is in a position to do so without having placed upon him a burden which is greater than he can sustain.
  This is a small concession. Not very much is being asked. It is true that in the aggregate it may seem a formidable amount, but actually it is not. It is a very important factor to the individual who is buying a house, and I think that the Financial Secretary, who, at times, is fairly reasonable, and who has been shown an example in the acceptance of the last Amendment by his right hon. Friend, should accept this very reasonable suggestion. I know the difficulty with which people are faced when they go to buy houses of this kind. One frequently comes across cases of men and women who want their own homes, and yet who find that a matter of £10 or £15 in the way of costs is something which is going to make a considerable difference.
  I want to say one other word about the concession. It is for an amount of £2,500 or below, but it is sometimes found that people cannot get the house they want at the price of £2,500 and have to pay £3,000. The Financial Secretary knows that today the £3,000 house is not a very elaborate affair. The person who purchases a house at £2,500 has to find only 10 per cent. of the purchase money, but when he goes beyond that range he is in considerable difficulties if he seeks a mortgage of 90 per cent. The hon. Member for Wimbledon knows that such a purchaser will flit from one building society to another and will search high and low in an effort to obtain a satisfactory mortgage.
  In the case of a purchaser of a house of that kind the concession is not very large, and the mortgage is something that should 'be taken into consideration by the Financial Secretary. This is a matter that cuts across a very large section of the community. They have often to scrape and save to find the necessary money to enable them to purchase such a house,

  2255
  and very often it is just a question of £10, £15 or £20 standing between the possibility of that purchase and being unable to bring it about. In those circumstances, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to regard this new Clause as one which he can accept.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Black), I have great sympathy with the declared objects of the Clause, namely, the assistance of house purchase. I have held that view for a good many years and it is a view to which the Government have given concrete expression by way of the reduction in Stamp Duty on house purchase, which was effected in the Finance Act, 1952.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon pointed out with great accuracy, in the Finance Act of 1952 and my right hon. Friend's first Budget a substantial reduction was made. It was provided that the lower 1 per cent. rate should run up to £3,000 with a modified provision of 1½ per cent. up to £3,450. We have not only paid lip service to this point of view, but have gone a considerable way to meeting it by practical financial measures.
  The proposed new Clause would carry the matter considerably further and, like all proposed tax concessions, it has to be looked at partly from the point of view of the good that it would do and partly from the point of view of whether in the circumstances of any particular year it is possible to accept the loss of revenue involved.
  Before passing to that subject, I should like to draw the attention of the House to the rather unfortunate way in which, in one respect, the new Clause would operate. The hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) referred to the £3,000 house, which, he rightly said, is not necessarily, in these days, a mansion of unbridled luxury. This proposal, however, would operate with a very severe jump just at that £3,000 level. If the Clause were adopted the house of just under £3,000 in value would carry a Stamp Duty of about £16 5s., whereas one of just over £3,000 value would jump to as much as £46 10s. Stamp Duty, that is at the £1 10s. per cent. rate.
  Mr. Janner: If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that he ought to go further we have no objection at all.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am only dealing with the precise proposal that has been put forward. One of the minor objections to it is that it provides this very acute jump at just the level which the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West went out of his way to point out was not a particularly high level. The hon. Member is good enough to say that he is prepared to go further but, if he does, that automatically raises the cost. Indeed, it is perhaps an indication of the difficulty of the proposal that to make it operate fairly and equitably it would be necessary to add to the already substantial cost of the Clause.
  The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) asked what the cost would be. According to the best estimate that I can obtain, it would be £2 million in the present year and £3 million in a full year. In the light of the figures for the current year, a cost of that sort makes it quite impossible for my right hon. Friend to accept this proposal. For reasons with which the House will be only too familiar, a concession of that amount of revenue is not possible in the circumstances of this year.
  Having said that, it does not mean, of course, that we do not agree that were the resources available this is certainly one of the matters which would call for consideration. The Government attach very great importance to house purchase. It would be a mistake to assume, however, that Stamp Duty is the only, or even a particularly substantial, deterrent. It is the experience of most of us who have discussed this matter, as I have, with our constituents, that the real deterrent in the great majority of cases is the size of the original deposit.
  As the House knows, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is seeking to tackle that difficulty by enabling advances to be made up to a far higher proportion of the total cost than has been possible in the past, by way of arrangements which he has succeeded in making under which both the central Government and local authorities undertake to cover the risk of building societies in making increased advances. That factor is a much bigger

  2257
  factor than Stamp Duty, but that does not mean that Stamp Duty is not material.
  It is necessary to put the matter in proportion, however, and to appreciate that, not only by way of Stamp Duty in 1952, but also by way of the new arrangements which were announced a few weeks ago, we have shown that we are seriously concerned about house purchase. Because on the ground of cost it is necessary to reject this proposal this year, it does not mean that we shall not continue the great success that my right hon. Friend has had in stimulating people to house themselves or that that beneficent process cannot continue to a still greater degree than at present.
  Mr. F. H. Hayman: The Financial Secretary has just said that this proposal would cost £2 million. Earlier, he said that the cost was small to the individual. It follows, therefore, that it affects a very large number of people and I should have thought that his party, which uses the slogan, "A property-owning democracy," would have acceded to our request. But in his list of costs which the house purchaser has to face, the right hon. Gentleman forgot legal costs. I am surprised that he should have done that, because to the layman legal costs are rather frightening.
  The memory of the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Black) must be very good, otherwise he would not be able to be a director of as many companies as he directs. One must assume, therefore, that he knew that in 1951 my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) had to face the first instalment of the re-armament budget which, over three years, was costing £4,500 million. That was a terrific item and, therefore, my right hon. Friend was perfectly justified in voting, and we were perfectly justified in voting with him, against Amendments which would reduce the revenue which he had to obtain.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am disappointed in the Financial Secretary. I had thought that perhaps the concession the Government made on the last new Clause portended a new trend. Perhaps there was now a new look in the Treasury; they would see whether they could please the taxpayers and please the House, but no, we are back again with the same old
  2258
  replies, "Cannot be done this year—costs too much—administrative inconvenience"—difficulties of one kind or another. It is surprising because we would have thought that, above all the new Clauses, this would have been the one most popular with the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends. After all, here was an opportunity to stimulate people into buying their own houses.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to the cost of £2 million, but he forgot that in stimulating people to buy their own houses he will save money on housing subsidies, a very important point which I am sure he has in mind in general housing policy. It would be quite consistent with that policy to give a little money away here in order to save a lot more money on the subsidy bill. So I do not think we need take too seriously what the right hon. Gentleman said about costs.
  I am not quite sure where the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Black) stands. He made a speech which seemed more appropriate to the platform than to this House and made points which I am sure he has made many times before in public and which, I think, have been very adequately dealt with by my hon. Friends. Of course, in 1951 we had to face a terrific increase in defence expenditure. I think it is- in the recollection of the House that that defence expenditure was supported by the party opposite. That year it was quite impossible to make concessions. I was unfortunate, as Chancellor of the Exchequer in the one year in which I had to present a Budget, in having to face an extra £500 million for defence. Therefore, I do not think that we can accept the strictures of the hon. Member too seriously.
  I am still not clear whether he is in favour of the new Clause. When he rose I thought he would give us his blessing. I believe he is connected with building societies and I am sure that building societies in general would not oppose a reduction in Stamp Duty.
  Mr. Black Mr. Black indicated assent.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am glad to see the hon. Member nodding his head. Whatever he does about dividing on this issue, at least we know where his heart is. I hope that the hon. Member will not spoil the excellent expression of his point of view which I am trying to give to the

  2259
  House. While he may feel strongly in favour of this Clause, and may even have meant to speak in support of it, the Financial Secretary has turned it down. It is very regrettable that the right hon. Gentleman has missed a great opportunity to win popularity for himself and for the
  Government. To show our disapproval of this foolish and reckless rejection of the new Clause, I propose that we should divide upon it.
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 238; Noes, 255.

  New Clause.—(AMENDMENT OF PART VIII OF INCOME TAX ACT. 1952 (PERSONAL ALLOWANCES).)
  Supplementary personal allowance
  Part VIII of the Income Tax Act, 1952, shall be amended by the insertion after clause two hundred and twenty of the following new clause:—
  220A.—(1) if for any year of assessment the aggregate (hereinafter called 'the standard aggregate') of all relief allowed to a claimant under the sections of this Act which are mentioned in the next following subsection is less than the minimum personal allowance as hereinafter defined, the claimant shall be entitled to a deduction (hereinafter called a 'supplementary personal allowance') from the amount of income tax with which he is chargeable.
  (2) The sections referred to in the last foregoing subsection are sections two hundred and ten, two hundred and twelve and two hundred and thirteen.
  (3) The minimum personal allowance referred to in subsection (1) of this section is the sum of sixty-three pounds and two-sevenths of any amount by which the standard aggregate exceeds sixty-three pounds.
  (4) The supplementary personal allowance shall be the difference between the minimum personal allowance and the standard aggregate.—[Mr. Mitchison.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Mr. Mitchison: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
  I feel that at this stage of the Finance Bill we are all agreed on one thing, at any rate, and that is that the system of taxation is highly complicated and that the Income Tax is about the most complicated part of it. This new Clause relates to the question of a personal allowance for Income Tax. It carries out, to some extent but not quite completely, the proposals of the Royal Commission on Taxation. We put it forward not by any means as the last word, because I do not think it is or ought to be the last word on this matter, but as a first step in the right direction.
  2264
  I shall have to remind the House that a personal allowance, and for that matter a personal allowance with a marriage allowance included, serves two purposes. It serves, or should serve, the purpose of lightening taxation especially at the bottom of the scale; and secondly, it is a part of the whole machinery of graduation and a part to which we have long been accustomed.
  The Royal Commission gave this question the most detailed and careful consideration. The point they had in mind and upon which they were all agreed is that the lowest limit and the lower part of the scale receive unfair treatment in the matter of personal allowance. If we regard this as an instrument for graduating the tax, no doubt it serves its purpose, but it has so constantly been regarded in that light that it does not in fact make a sufficient concession to the people right at the bottom of the scale.
  The matter is involved because in the majority, though not necessarily in all, of these cases there will either be earned income relief or some element of earned income relief in the small income. It is not in a very large number of cases that we find so small an income being the only income and entirely unearned.
  8.45 p.m.
  Naturally, such cases exist, but the Royal Commission carefully considered the question whether the hardship which it had in mind would be sufficiently relieved by dealing with the earned income allowance. It concluded that in cases of this sort there was an elementary fairness in extending a measure of additional relief in the case of these small incomes, whether earned or unearned. It devoted another part of its Report to a consideration of the question of earned income.
  When the Royal Commission came to the remedy—all the members were agreed

  2265
  that there was something wrong at the bottom of the scale—there were differences of opinion both in the body of the Report and between various members of the Royal Commission. I would simply say that what is proposed in the new Clause is the very smallest thing—if, indeed, it is all that—that the Royal' Commission recommended. I will quote the words of the Royal Commission at the beginning of paragraph 170 of its Report:
  "We are all of us agreed that a minimum allowance scheme of this modest sort "—
  what is proposed now is just that—
  "would be at team a step in the right direction."
  If I may immediately cut away the ground from the Economic Secretary, I will read the next sentence:
  "The cost is small, and the effect on incentive of the rise in the marginal rate would be negligible. However, the rise in the exemption limit is also small, and the relief of tax on small incomes is not very considerable. There is therefore a strong case for trying to find something more ambitious."
  I entirely agree with the last sentence; there is indeed a strong case for trying to find something more ambitious. We Are engaged for the moment in testing the intentions of the Government in regard to this matter, and I am certain that they would agree that the acceptance of this scheme would not at all preclude them from trying something more ambitious at a later stage, if indeed they do not choose to do it on this Bill.
  Let me frankly put the test as I see it. This is a cheap, small, inadequate concession to people at the very bottom of the Income Tax scale. Outside the Conservative Club in Kettering there is a large notice which says:
  "The country is better off. Trust the Tories."
  Mr. Assheton: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Mitchison: I am glad that the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton) agrees with that. If the country is better off, this is certainly the sort of concession which ought to be made to people at the bottom of the Income Tax scale, and that is exactly the point that I am making. I should be out of order if I added anything about old-age pensioners, but the point is obvious.
  Taking for the moment the particular matter that we have in mind, let us see
  2266
  exactly what the Royal Commission required, for it is upon that that the Clause is founded. Here again, the Royal Commission put its requirements in a clear and succinct form. It said:
  "The basis would be a minimum allowance of £63 for the single person."
  That, of course, means £63 and not the tax on £63. It went on:
  "For each taxpayer entitled to more than the bare single personal allowance, this minimum would be increased by 2/7ths of the difference between the single personal allowance and the actual personal allowances to which the taxpayer was entitled."
  I tell the House frankly that I am not quite certain what that means. The phrase "personal allowances" is used in various senses, both in this Report and actually in the 1952 Act. Therefore, what we have done is to put down the very minimum of what could be regarded as a personal allowance; that is to say, what is strictly called the single man's allowance, with the addition thereto for a wife, making it a married man'; allowance, and then the child's allowance.
  I am not going into the figures in any detail. It is sufficient to say that I do not think that anyone who has any practical sense of how people live would disagree with me when I say that, if we find that something is too little for the single man's personal allowance, it is quite certain that the additions to the allowances which are made for a married man and for children will not remedy that unfairness. They are certainly not too much, and certainly they do not fully meet the requirements for which they are intended.
  Therefore, I can start off by pointing out that at present, taking the case of earned income, the starting point for a single man is £155, and if I take the single man as an instance, I do not do so because he is a particularly meritorious instance. I think that actually the case is even stronger for the married man or the married man with children. I take the case of the single man knowing that I said just now that the additional allowances in the case of marriage or children will certainly not meet the difference in the requirements which a taxpayer has to pay for in his daily life by reason of the agreeable burden of a wife and children, and I only take it for that reason.

  2267
  Now, taking the present figure of £155, one has only to ask oneself one simple question. Can a man reasonably live on it? Of course, the exemption figure makes a slight difference, but, quite obviously, it is well below the standard of living that one considers reasonable or indeed practicable. Perhaps the most startling light is thrown upon the matter by one very small point which I noticed in the Report of the Royal Commission revealing that the exemption limit, which I think now stands at £135, in 1894 was actually £160. Prices in 1894 were a very different matter from what they are today, and what has happened is that changes in taxation have been made from time to time, and that every time the effect of those changes on the people at the bottom of the scale has not been considered. That is the reason for it.
  What we propose to do is to start at the very bottom of the scale and put up the single man's allowance by a matter of £20 or £30, and I call it little more than a token step, though it is roughly the step which the Royal Commission recommended.
  I am waiting to see what objections the Government make to accepting this Clause now. Let me take the usual standard objections. The first is that the Government are waiting for the advice of the Royal Commission. They have it. It is that this concession is the very minimum, only a first step. The next objection is that it would be administratively difficult. The Royal Commission considered that point very carefully and in very great detail. The odd fraction, two-sevenths, reflects their favourable conclusion about it. We could reconcile it with the requirements of P.A.Y.E. and produce what the experts call an "even band" throughout the Income Tax arrangements.
  What is the next objection? "Not this year, but next year," like the old game we used to play: "This year, next year, some time, never." This objection has gone on for a very long time. It is true that the Royal Commission has only made its Report recently, but it knows what it is talking about. It consists of practical people. Nobody can say that the Commission is unduly generous in its recommendations or that this is a minor matter. It is a thing upon which the
  2268
  Commission hung a very large part of its recommendations. Therefore, one does not see what can be the reason for delaying the introduction of this proposal, as a first step.
  I put one discreditable thought to the House, only to reject it. Let me confess to the Economic Secretary, who is to reply, that when I listened to the Budget I said to myself, "That means no Election this year. The concessions and the Election will come next year." I am a very nasty-minded person or the thought would never have occurred to me. I must have an unduly suspicious nature. Of course, if by any chance the Economic Secretary were to say that he could not take the proposed step this year because he or his Department wanted longer to think about it, I should begin to wonder whether I might not have been right and whether they are keeping the whole thing back only to bring it forward on the plate next year.
  This proposal will affect quite a large number of voters, including that mythical animal the floating voter. This might be a very good electoral stunt. I know that the Economic Secretary is a very high-minded person, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in many ways, comparatively speaking—comparing him with the others, of course—the sea-green incorruptible of the Tory Party. It would be just an unfortunate coincidence if this happened in connection with an Election. I hope that they will not tell us that this minimum step cannot be taken this year. The right thing to do is to take this little step this year and bring all the popularity that will result from so doing; and then to go one better next year. That would have a certain electoral effect. It might be a surprise; one never knows. That is the argument for it.
  9.0 p.m.
  I shall not go in very great detail into the explanations. This is a very simple new Clause. We are compelled by the rules of order to put the matter in a particular way. Indeed, I see very little alternative. What we are seeking is a supplementary personal allowance which would be the difference between what the Royal Commission recommends—as interpreted by me, and I am not sure that I have the whole of the Commission's recommendations right—and what the man is already getting by way of the

  2269
  three reliefs which I have mentioned. Instead of taking one allowance and substituting another, we are providing a supplementary allowance, which will conform with the rules of order and have the same result.
  It is possible to say, "You have not gone even as far as the Royal Commission"; and I am not sure that we have. That may be a reason for doing more. It is certainly not a reason for rejecting the very small step which we wish to take. The House should remember who will be affected by the Clause. It will affect the average, ordinary, quite small income—the small wage earner, the unskilled man, those who are living on small savings, the ordinary humble folk in the community, who seem to me to have been neglected in the Budget.
  We have been talking high and mighty things about investment allowances, chicory and other obscure subjects. Here is the first opportunity to do something for the ordinary small man and woman. While I hesitate to appeal to the Economic Secretary on grounds of electoral expediency—the Clause would make him and his party a little more popular, but it is not my business to help him over that—I put the Clause to him as a matter of obvious common justice towards the ordinary people of the country with small incomes.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: I beg to second the Motion.
  The case for this new Clause has been admirably made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), who has made a great study of this subject. Like him, I regard it as one of the major defects in the Budget that no attempt was made to carry out any of the recommendations of the Royal Commission, and particularly that there was no attempt whatever, in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission, to assist the class of small Income Tax payer who is so badly hit today compared with the situation a decade or two ago.
  I do not know whether it was for electoral reasons or for some other reasons that the Chancellor made no attempt to give effect to the recommendations. It may have been for electoral reasons; it may be that the Government are saving up this concession. It is most
  2270
  important that the country should know that we on these benches are most anxious that at the earliest possible moment the recommendations, which have the authority of the Royal Commission, for assisting the lowest grade of Income Tax payers in the country should be carried out, because until they are carried out these people are suffering a very great injustice.
  My hon. and learned Friend has explained the details of the new Clause and I shall not weary the House by repeating them. I want to try to explain in my own words the principle which underlies the new Clause and the necessity for doing something on these lines. As the Royal Commission pointed out, our present Income Tax system has become considerably distorted by reason of inflation. The broad lines of our progressive scale of Income Tax were laid down some time ago, and have been looked at from time to time.
  I had overlooked the fact, until it was pointed out by the Royal Commission, that the exemption limit has not risen proportionately with the degree of inflation that has taken place in this country. In other words, the inflation that has occurred has distorted the operation of the Income Tax system, particularly with regard to the exemption limits, the allowances, and the differential as between a single man, a married man and a man with children, and so on.
  It is high time that the necessary rectification was carried out because, until it is, it is the poorer sections of the community who will suffer as they are now only getting the benefit of the exemption limits, the personal allowances, and so forth, that were relevant at a pre-inflation date, and before the cost of living rose to its present level.
  My hon. and learned Friend quoted in support of his new Clause the precise terms of the Royal Commission's Report, because the Clause follows its suggestions. It may only be a beginning, but I regard it as a very important beginning, and I shall not be satisfied unless we hear from the Economic Secretary tonight that he accepts the principles on which these proposals are based. We have not heard a word at any stage of the Finance Bill to indicate whether or not the Chancellor even accepts the principles which the Royal Commission has recommended.

  2271
  This is how the Royal Commission put it in justification and explanation of the precise recommendation which we are now considering. In paragraph 172, it says:
  "We must emphasise that the question we have been discussing is intimately connected with the inflation which has been experienced during the past decade. A progressive tax is bound to be distorted by inflation;"—
  it has been distorted by inflation, but it must be corrected if justice is to be done—
  "for since it fixes the proportion of income paid in tax by reference to the money value of the income, each class of the community takes up the burden of a higher rate of tax as money incomes rise and prices rise with them."
  In other words, prices rise, but the exemption limit available for Income Tax purposes does not rise in proportion. The result is that people are not getting an exemption limit which corresponds to the degree of inflation that has taken place, and that it operates unfairly on the lowest grade of Income Tax payers. The Report goes on:
  "Thus at present a single man with an earned income of £500 pays 11 per cent. of his income in tax; in 1938 conditions, at 1938 prices, such a man could not be expected to have been earning more than £250; at £250, with present tax rates he would pay less than 5 per cent. This automatic stiffening of the tax burden proceeds all along the scale … Nevertheless, just because the stiffening has been to this extent automatic, rather than deliberate, its consequences have been somewhat different from those which would have been easily accepted as part of a deliberate policy."
  In other words, we are faced with a situation in which there has been a shift in emphasis of taxation which puts a greater burden on those in the lower income groups compared with the others because the exemption limit has not been changed.
  There has been a shift in the emphasis of the burden over a decade or two as the result of inflation and to some extent it has been imperceptible. It takes some time for economic consequences to make themselves apparent and we may not always appreciate the process. But the result has been indicated by the Royal Commission, and I see no justification whatever for the singular omission in this year's Budget of any reference to this growing need to remedy an injustice. There is nothing to which I attach greater
  2272
  importance than that there should be some recognition of the fact that relief for the Income Tax payers at the lower end of the scale is overdue. This is only a beginning. I hope that the Clause will be accepted. I hope, also, that it may be followed by a recognition of the other suggestions contained in the Report of the Royal Commission.
  We are here attempting to lay down the principle of a minimum personal allowance on earned income. The text of the Clause has been drafted to take account, as far as possible, of the detailed recommendations in the Report of the Royal Commission. I hope that no one will assume from anything that has been said that we should be satisfied merely by the acceptance of this modest beginning to what we wish to bring about.
  I was particularly impressed by the observations contained in paragraph 8 of the Minority Report, where it is put in a different manner. The broad reasons which led to the conclusion are explained succinctly. Reference is made to some complicated tables which are printed in various pages of the Report and I would invite hon. Members who are interested to study them. Paragraph 8 states:
  "Three broad conclusions emerge from these tables. In the first place, the starting point of liability is at a much lower level of real income than before the war."
  That is what we complain about. Owing to inflation, the starting point of liability for Income Tax today is at a much lower level of real income than ever before. Surely that proposition has only to be stated to be appreciated and I think that the House will accept the corollary that something should be done to remedy it. The, 20 on to say:
  "In the second place, the rise in taxation has been proportionately much greater in the lower categories of Income Tax payers … than on those higher up the scale."
  They go on—and this is very relevant to the Clause—
  "In the third place, the rise in the tax burden has been much greater on the family man than on married persons without children; and it has been much greater on married persons than on single persons."
  9.15 p.m.
  In other words, what has occurred is this. This gradual increase in the cost of living has completely thrown out of Rear what we regard, and what I imagine is commonly regarded, as a properly balanced system of Income Tax liability

  2273
  measured as between different categories of persons in the community—the single man, the married man, the married man with two children and so forth. The result has not merely been to distort that system: it has done so in a sense which is completely anti-social.
  When these reliefs and allowances were originally devised, they were devised for the specific purpose of encouraging the married man with children. Everybody knows—it is common experience—that it is the married man with a wife and two or three children who is most severely hit today, both by the cost of living and also by the incidence of the Income Tax system which has become so distorted as a result of inflation. Nothing has been done in the Budget to correct that. We have not heard whether the principles underlying the Report are to be accepted.
  As the Chancellor realises, this is the only way in which we can bring to the notice of the community our insistence on something being done about this matter without delay. As my hon. Friend has said, we have drafted this Clause in this particular way because it is not easy to draft a large number of new Clauses to give effect to all the recommendations of the Royal Commission. In the course of the Finance Bill we have already done a great deal of work for the Chancellor which we think ought to have been done in the Treasury, and he has from time to time expressed his gratitude for our assistance. But had time permitted and had the opportunity arisen, I should like to have seen a great many more new Clauses put down on the lines proposed by the Royal Commission.
  I am therefore supporting this new Clause not merely because it contains a specific, precise recommendation on the lines of the Commission's Report, which. I hope, the Chancellor will accept, but also because it enshrines the principles which have actuated the Royal Commission in drawing the attention of the country to the necessity, if justice is to be done, for a complete reorganisation of our whole system of personal allowances, minimum liability, differentials, and so forth, all of which should be done in order to give overdue relief to the lowest Income Tax payers in the community.
  Mr. Maudling: The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) gave the House the benefit of his very interesting thoughts on paragraphs 169 and 170 of the Report of the Royal Commission, but what we are now discussing is not that, but the proposed new Clause, and there is quite a difference between one and the other. The hon. and learned Member himself said that there was a difference, but according to my interpretation of the matter the difference is a good deal wider than he appears to think.
  I want to say a word or two about this recommendation of the Royal Commission. Like the other recommendations, it is an extremely interesting one, but my right hon. Friend is not proceeding with it this year because, as he has already explained to the House, he has not a great deal of revenue to spare this year, and he is not prepared to pick out one individual recommendation from the whole group put forward by the Royal Commission. The recommendation contained in paragraph 169 would cost about £8 million, which is a very substantial sum, and the cost of the recommendations mentioned in paragraph 170 would be a great deal more, namely, £56 million. For that reason my right hon. Friend did not proceed to implement that recommendation, any more than any of the others, although he will study them all carefully between now and next year's Budget.
  The proposed new Clause would have an effect very different from the recommendation of the Royal Commission, but I do not intend to advise the House to reject it on any of the grounds which the hon. and learned Gentleman proposed. The grounds I put forward are that it would cost about £60 million and the benefit would go entirely to single people. No benefit would go to married people, about whom the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) spoke with great feeling but without a very accurate appreciation of the effect of the proposal.
  The effect would be to give a supplementary relief in a case where the aggregate of all the reliefs under certain Sections of the Income Tax Act, 1952, was less than £63. As I understand it, that can happen only in the case of a

  2275
  single man, whose relief from tax on a sun of £120 is £54. He would therefore receive an allowance of £9 in terms of tax which, grossed up, would be £20, making up the difference between £120 and £140, to which difference the hon. and learned Member referred. That is the effect of the proposal as I understand it, and it is quite clear that it can have no other effect, and can be of benefit only to people whose tax relief is below the figure I have mentioned. These people could only be single people, and a concession costing £60 million a year would be given to them.
  The hon. and learned Member talked in a spirit of badinage on the subject of elections, but I would ask him if he thinks it would be a good election move to vote in favour of giving a £60 million concession entirely to single people.
  Mr. Mitchison: This is a relief which is additional to any present relief. It is founded on a certain sum, plus two-sevenths of the personal allowances. Those personal allowances are obviously larger in the case of a married man, and larger still in the case of a married man with children. What I fail to understand is why two-sevenths of a larger sum is not larger than two-sevenths of a smaller sum. Perhaps the hon. Member can explain the matter to me.
  Maudling: The hon. and learned Member has made the precise point. It is true that reliefs for married men are much larger than for single men, but the relief in this case would arise only where the present reliefs are as small as possible. This proposed new Clause would cover the situation only where the standard aggregate was less than £63, and that would apply only in the case of a person with the minimum personal allowance, namely, a single man. It is because this proposal would cost £60 million a year and would benefit only single persons that my right hon. Friend cannot accept it.
  Mr. Mitchison: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, might I ask him one further question? This may differ in one small respect from the recommendations of the Royal Commission but it may differ only because it does not include all the personal allowances it had in mind. Subject to that, it follows exactly the
  2276
  passage that I read from the Report. The Royal Commission gives a table showing the effect as regards married men and single men, and I completely fail to understand—and I do not believe I am the only person who fails to understand—why that table is quite wrong and why following out what the Royal Commission said is apparently the opposite to that which they concluded it would be.
  Mr. Maudling: It is not the table which is wrong; it is the new Clause.
  Mr. Mitchison: I wonder whether I can be told why.
  Mr. Assheton: I am sorry that the Opposition have put down such a bad Clause. I sympathise with them because I know how difficult it is without the assistance of the Parliamentary draftsmen to put ideas clearly into a draft Clause. I do not wish to challenge the drafting, but I want to make one point about this proposal. The minimum personal allowance is referred to in subsection (3) in these words:
  "… the sum of sixty-three pounds and two-sevenths of any amount by which the standard aggregate exceeds sixty-three pounds."
  I only want to say that I think that is far too complicated a thing to introduce into our Income Tax law, and I hope that account will be taken of the general trend of the arguments which led to that particular proposal and that a more plain and simple proposition will be put by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he comes to deal with it in due course.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am getting rather tired of having to start my speeches at this stage of the Bill by saying that the hon. Gentleman's or the right hon. Gentleman's reply is very disappointing, but I can assure the Economic Secretary that his answer on this new Clause was extremely disappointing. I thought he fell below his usual standard of courteous explanation. He dismissed curtly, and without any argument at all, the drafting of this Clause; indeed, I could not follow what he had to say at all. I will not go into detail, because my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) is far better equipped to do that than I am, and I have no doubt that he will take full opportunity of pressing the hon. Member on this point.

  2277
  But even supposing that the drafting is difficult, the hon. Gentleman's reply was not adequate to a Clause of this importance. We are concerned here with one of the major proposals of the Royal Commission, and I would say to the Economic Secretary that I do not think it was even polite to the members of that Commission to dismiss the proposal in the way that he did.
  Mr. Maudling: I was most careful to say that my right hon. Friend would study all the proposals of the Royal Commission with great care.
  Mr. Gaitskell: For how long? After all, this Report has been out for some time, and I have little doubt that the Treasury was informed of the contents before it was published.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I am not sure that we can accept that. The report was received by us actually after the Budget and, therefore, it was not possible to make any detailed examination which I should like to give to the Report in the time; but I am not responsible for that.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am concerned with whether the Chancellor had an opportunity of studying the Report before it was printed and published. I should be very surprised if he was not given the Report in typescript so that he could at least have some opportunity of looking through it.
  In any case, some time has elapsed since the Budget, and to say, "We cannot consider any of these proposals as we have said on an earlier occasion" is not good enough. I come back to the point that here we have a major proposal of the Royal Commission. It is not a completely new idea. As a matter of fact, I think great credit is due to my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), who has repeatedly pressed for a higher minimum tax figure. The scheme which the Royal Commission recommends is, in certain respects, very like the proposals which he has put forward in this House on earlier occasions.
  9.30 p.m.
  The case is based largely on two grounds. First of all, obviously if one can secure substantial administrative economies at very little cost, from the sheer efficiency point of view there is a great
  2278
  deal to be said for it. If one can write off a million or two people from the Income Tax scheme altogether and the cost is only a few million pounds there is a substantial gain on that account. I do not think that the Economic Secretary would deny that.
  Secondly, the Royal Commission itself argues with great pertinacity that there ought to be a subsistence level which should not attract Income Tax at all and the Commission discusses in some detail what that level should be. It points out that the present situation is anomalous and unsatisfactory because the effective minimum is determined by the personal allowances only and the earned income allowance, and the Commission puts forward very powerful arguments why that is not really satisfactory from the point of view of a fair fiscal system.
  The Commission points out that if one wanted to raise the minimum figure by raising the personal allowance one would have to give away in tax relief an enormous amount to people who are far above the levels of income with which the Commission is concerned. The Commission also points out that if one raises the personal allowance to £200 and £320 respectively, thereby exempting about 7 million people, a very substantial number, it would cost no less than £290 million on the basis of doing it that way, although only £37 million would relate to those who would be completely exempted from tax. Therefore, the Commission concludes that we ought to find a new system by which there is a higher effective minimum than the personal allowances at present provided.
  My hon. Friends have explained the matter with extraordinary clarity and lucidity. I hope they will not take offence when I say that though they are both lawyers and not economists, they seem to have an admirable grasp of the economics of the Royal Commission's Report and have explained with great detail exactly what is involved. They have referred to the specific proposal relating to the minimum personal allowance as the sum of £63 plus two-sevenths of any amount by which the standard aggregate exceeds £63 and that the supplementary personal allowance shall be the difference between the minimum personal allowance and the standard aggregate. Although this may seem only a modest step it is

  2279
  an important step forward. I think that we have shown some restraint in selecting this particular variation of the general idea of a minimum earned income relief instead of the much more extensive one which occurs later in the Report.
  The case for introducing something of this kind is very powerful indeed and one would suppose that even if the Economic Secretary could not have conceded the new Clause he would have presented some arguments about it at least. We have not the slightest notion whether the Government think that this is a good idea or a bad idea and whether there are any difficulties in it. It would have been interesting for the House to know whether it is thought practicable by the experts of the Inland Revenue, whose advice the hon. Gentleman swallows completely whole when it comes to drafting, without apparently being able to pass on exactly what they say to the House.
  That would not necessarily have committed the Government. It is entirely unsatisfactory that when we put forward schemes of this kind, drawn from the Report, we should be told that nothing out of the Report can be accepted, because it is in the Report. That is very discourteous to the Royal Commission and certainly very unsatisfactory for the Opposition. I do not know what my hon. Friends who support this Clause feel, but I still hope that we shall get a better explanation, at least on the drafting point.
  The hon. Gentleman is an extremely intelligent person—he is not only an economist, but a lawyer as well, which is a very rare combination. He is quite capable, if the Chancellor would only take off his muzzle, of holding forth to us on this very interesting and important subject for a long time. I strongly suspect that he would have done so if the Chancellor had not come in at that time. No doubt that is the real trouble. Now that this little plot has been exposed, I hope that the Chancellor will allow the Economic Secretary to give a better reply and at least explain why this new Clause is so unacceptable to the Government.
  Mr. James Callaghan: We do hope we shall get something from the Economic Secretary. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) has deployed a
  2280
  very powerful case and the Chancellor is taking a personal interest in this.
  When I first started to be interested in the Inland Revenue, 25 years ago, there was not an exemption limit, but there was its equivalent in the sense of a single man's personal allowance plus earned income relief. In 1930 that allowance amounted to £160. One did not start to pay Income Tax until one had an income of £160. Today, as I understand the Royal Commission's Report, one starts to pay tax at £155. This is a most singular change in the level of taxation.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) said that we ought to double the old exemption allowance to bring it into line with modern conditions. He could have put it the other way and have said in effect that the level of exemption which existed in the middle years between the wars at £160 was really equivalent to only £80 today and that in fact we have substantially worsened—practically halved—the position of those people.
  I do not take the view—and I hope the Economic Secretary will not deploy it as part of his political armoury—that to take the part of the single person against the married person is a vote loser. I would remind the Economic Secretary that there is a very large number of single people now enjoying incomes—if that is the appropriate phrase to use—of between £155 and £183 a year and they are very badly off. We are talking about a wage of between £3 and £3 10s. a week. If the hon. Gentleman would pause and consider the case, he would find that there are large numbers of young people whose employment takes them from home, and who have to live in lodgings, getting between £3 and £3 10s. a week. They are young people, but that is no reason why they should not have the same consideration as married people, or anyone else.
  The very fact that the Economic Secretary has told us that this concession would cost so much money—the only reason he has advanced for rejecting it—is in itself a reason for examining it much more carefully. If he is saying that the amount of revenue he secures from a great many single young people whose wages are between £3 and £3 10s. a week is so important to him, he might equally consider whether there is not a case, on common grounds of humanity, for

  2281
  relieving that very section of young people. Many of us know of some young persons trying to get along on these small incomes and know what a benefit such a concession would be to them.
  I shall not talk about the technical merits or demerits of the proposed Clause, but I hope that before you put the Question finally. Mr. Speaker, we may have some views from the Economic Secretary on its merits and on the attitude of the Government to it—whether it is a good idea or not and whether he does not accept some of the considerations put forward by my hon. Friends on behalf of this class of person. Or will he subside behind his Treasury brief and turn down the Clause on the ground that it is defective and would cost a lot of money? I hope that we shall have an answer from him.
  Mr. Mitchison: I wonder whether I may have the leave of the House to say a few words more?
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Being on Report, it is not desirable that a Minister, or indeed any person, should take part twice in our debates. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] It is not usual on Report. I am merely trying to observe the proprieties.
  I can quite understand the interest of hon. Members. I had supposed, having got here before me an extract from the Report of the Royal Commission, in paragraphs 169 and following, that they had hoped under this to follow up the point made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) who took part in the debate on Clause 13—which is now Clause 14. In his speech on 15th June he referred to the desire of the Royal Commission that a specific minimum relief should be introduced for the purpose of affording a graduated exemption limit in favour of the smallest incomes. He said that he hoped that that would be one of the ideas which might find a place in the next Budget.
  It therefore does not seem to me that the Opposition is entirely logical because at that time I thought that was sensible, namely, that we should look at this with a view to making it one of our ideas for the next Budget. But tonight hon. Members opposite are pressing a Clause which is not on all fours with the Royal
  2282
  Commission's recommendation, which does not cost—as I have calculated that the Royal Commission recommendation would cost—about £8 million per annum but which, as drafted, would cost £60 million per annum. That, I think, we could not possibly accept in relationship to all the arguments, claims and counterclaims which we have had in the course of the Finance Bill debates.
  Hon. and right hon. Members opposite will therefore see that the contribution made by the Economic Secretary was absolutely just. This Clause, as drafted, is too expensive. It does not apply to married men or to single persons entitled to child allowance, it costs far too much money and is not, I think, effective. The actual recommendations in paragraphs 169 and 170 of the Royal Commission's Report which I have set out before me with their tables, and which were referred to by some hon. Members opposite, would be within our scope and more possible to accept.
  From the right hon. Gentleman's previous contribution, I understood that be wished those ideas to be raised in connection with next year's Budget. Now he comes with a Clause costing £60 million which he says he wants dealt with in this Budget. It is not a consecutive argument. Either we consider something quite rationally—as the right hon. Gentleman did in June when he asked us to consider these ideas in the next Budget—or we have a proposition which is not within the scope of the amount of surplus I have available with which to grant concessions.
  Mr. Dalton: That was on an earlier Amendment. There was no reason why the Chancellor should not give the further consideration which we hope that he will give to the other recommendations of the Royal Commission with a view to next year's Budget, but also there is no reason why there should not be a beginning made now by the acceptance of these principles. If this particular Clause is objectionable, perhaps the Chancellor would be prepared to have some modified form of it which he could accept. That would show a willingness to move on the road advocated by my hon. and right hon. Friends in this debate.
  Mr. Butler: I naturally considered this. We consider every single Clause

  2283
  on the Order Paper. I have already accepted one put forward, in essence, by the right hon. Gentleman because I thought it was within the scope of what I could accept. I am afraid that this is not within the scope, even if it were on the basis of the Royal Commission's original recommendation, namely, £8 million per annum, because, if we are to accept anything as an initial step towards accepting part of the Royal Commission's recommendations, I would rather have accepted something for the child allowance, which has been for some time very near my heart.
  9.45 p.m.
  That would have cost in one form approximately this—£8 million—and in its main form it would have cost about twice this—about £16 million—but I was obliged to refuse. I, personally, would have given it priority over this one. The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will see that had I accepted in a hurry any of the recommendations of the Royal Commission, I would have given priority to the child side rather than to this new Clause in making my decision.
  Mr. Mitchison: Both the right hon. Gentleman and the Economic Secretary have told us that this new Clause would cost many times as much as the recommendation of the Royal Commission upon which it is intended to be founded. No one has yet explained what the difference is.
  Mr. Butler: The difference is broadly that the Clause would give no benefit either to married men or to single persons entitled to child allowances. I give the reasons. Their minimum standard aggregates of tax relief, £210 at 9s. in the £ and £205 at 9s. in the £, equal £94 10s. and £92 5s. respectively, and are far more than the minimum personal allowance as defined in subsection (3) of the Clause; £94 10s. must be more than £63 plus two-sevenths of the difference between £63 and £94 10s. So, to give relief all the way up the scale to single persons without dependants and to do nothing for family men would, in our view, be indefensible and would, incidentally, if carried out according to the drafting, cost £60 million.
  2284
  That is the explanation which has been provided far me in interpreting this new Clause. The hon. and learned Member asked for it. I have given the explanation as best I can and, in order to clinch the argument, whether it costs £60 million or £8 million, I am afraid that I could not accept the new Clause for the reasons I have given in my statement. I have given the answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman on the specific point, incomprehensible though it is to him and to me. Whether it would cost £60 million or £8 million, I regret that, in view of our general attitude to the recommendations of the Royal Commission, I could not accept it.
  Mr. Mitchison: I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question I asked him. I read out to him the very clear and short statement of the recommendation of the Royal Commission. Conceit is an abominable vice, self-defence a permissible virtue. I should like to know in what respect the Clause differs from the recommendation.
  Mr. Butler: I should like to say that I considered all the recommendations of the Royal Commission and I asked for time, both for myself and for public opinion, to study them with the care which they undoubtedly deserve. In answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), I would say that it is perfectly true that unfortunately the Report did not appear in time for consideration before this year's Budget. I cannot help that. The one thing Ministers are powerless over, besides some of their colleagues, is a Royal Commission. I would willingly have tried to get this Report of the Royal Commission in time to consider some of the recommendations. Unfortunately, it did not report in time. Therefore, I say in all sincerity that when men with the great ability of Lord Radcliffe and his confreres have taken all this time to produce their Report, the least compliment we can pay them is to give the Report more consideration and to introduce our recommendations when we have had a little more time to consider it.
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 260.

  Division No. 192.]

  AYES

  [8.32 p.m.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Adams, Richard

  Grey, C. F.

  Monslow, W.

  Albu, A. H.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Moody, A. S.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Grimond, J.

  Morley, R.

  Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Hale, Leslie

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Mort, D. L.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Moyle, A.

  Baird, J.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Balfour, A.

  Hannan, W.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J

  Bartley, P.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Beattie, J.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Orbach, M.

  Bence, C. R.

  Hastings, S.

  Oswald, T.

  Bonn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Hayman, F. H.

  Padley, W. E.

  Benson, G.

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Healy, Cahir (Fermanagh)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Henderson Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Blackburn, F.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Pannell, Charles

  Blyton, W. R.

  Holman, P.

  Pargiter, G. A

  Boardman, H.

  Holmes, Horace

  Parker, J.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Holt, A. F.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Paton, J.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Hoy, J. H.

  Pearson, A.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Pearl, T. F.

  Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Popplewell, E.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Porter, G.

  Burke, W. A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Hynd, J. B. (Atterclifle)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Champion, A. J.

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Greeen)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Clunie, J.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Rankin, John

  Coldrick, W.

  Janner, B.

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Collick, P. H.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena

  Rhodes, H.

  Cove, W. G.

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Richards, R.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Ross, William

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Keenan, W.

  Royle, C.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Kenyon, C.

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Deer, G.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Short, E. W.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Kinley, J.

  Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C-

  Lover, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon, Ness (Caerphilly)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  McGovern, J.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  McInnes, J.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  McLeavy, F

  Steele, T.

  Fernyhough, W.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Strains, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Follick, M.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Swingler, S. T.

  Foot, M. M.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Forman, J. C.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon H. A

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mason, Roy

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Freeman, John (Watford)

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

  Mellish, R. J.

  Thomas, Iorworth (Rhondda, W.)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Glanville, James

  Mikardo, Ian

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Thornton, E.

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Timmons, J.

  West, D. G.

  Willis, E. G.

  Tomney, F.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  While, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Wade, D. W.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Wigg, George.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Yates, V. F.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Willey, F. T.

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Weitzman, D.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Mr. Bowden and Mr. J. T. Price.

  NOES

  Aitken, W. T.

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Fort, R.

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  Maclean, Fitzroy

  Arbuthnot, John

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

  MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr J. M

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Glover, D.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir Reginald

  Banks, Col. C.

  Godber, J. B.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Barber, Anthony

  Gomme- Duncan, Col. A.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Marples, A. E.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Gower, H. R.

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Beach, Maj. Hicks

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Maude, Angus

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Maudling, R.

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Bennett, William (Woodside)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Mellor, Sir John

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Black, C. W.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Boothby, Sir R. J. G.

  Hay, John

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E

  Bossom, Sir A. C.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon J. A

  Heath, Edward

  Neave, Airey

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Braine, B. R.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Nutting, Anthony

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Holland-Martin, C. J

  O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N)

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon P. G. T.

  Hope, Lord John

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Horobin, I. M.

  Page, R. G.

  Campbell, Sir David

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Peaks, Rt. Hon. O.

  Carr, Robert

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Channon, H.

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Cole, Norman

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Colegate, W. A.

  Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Iremongor, T. L.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Redmayne, M.

  Crouch. R. F.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Rees-Davies, W. R

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Kaberry, D.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Ronton, D. L. M.

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Kerr, H. W.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Lambton, Viscount

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Donaldson, Cmdr, C. E. McA

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Donner, Sir P. W.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Russell, R. S.

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

  Lindsay, Martin

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Drayson, G. B.

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Drews, Sir C.

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Scott, R. Donald

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Shepherd, William

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Low, A. R. W.

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Erroll, F. J.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon M. S

  Spearman, A. C. M

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Speir, R M

  2262

  2263

  Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Tilney, John

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Wellwood, W.

  Stoddart Scott, Col. M.

  Turton, R. H.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Storey, S.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Summers, G. S.

  Vosper, D. F.

  Wills, G.

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Teeling, W.

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Wall, Major Patrick

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Mr. Studholme and

  Mr. Robert Allan.

  Division No. 193.]

  AYES

  [9.49 p.m.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Hardy, E. A.

  Pargiter, G. A

  Adams, Richard

  Hargreaves, A.

  Parker, J.

  Albu, A. H.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Parkin, B. T

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Hastings, S.

  Paton, J

  Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Pearl, T. F.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Healy, Cahir (Fermanagh)

  Popplewell, E.

  Baird, J.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

  Porter, G.

  Balfour, A.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Bartley, P.

  Hobson, G. R.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Beattie, J.

  Holman, P.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Holmes, Horace

  Pryde, D. J.

  Bence, C. R.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Pursey, Cmdr. H

  Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Hoy, J. H.

  Rankin, John

  Benson, G.

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Rhodes, H.

  Blackburn, F.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Richards, R.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Board man, H.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Bowden, H. W.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Ross, William

  Bowles, F. G.

  Janner, B.

  Royle, C.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E

  Brook, Drydon (Halifax)

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Short, E. W.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Burke, W. A.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Jones, T. W (Merioneth)

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Keenan, W.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Kenyon, C.

  Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Champion, A. J.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Clunie, J.

  King, Dr. H. M

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Coldrick, W.

  Kinley, J.

  Sparks, J. S.

  Collick, P. H.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Steele, T.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Swingler, S. T.

  Crosland, C. A. R.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  McGovern, J.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  McInnes, J.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Deer, G.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Delargy, H. J.

  McLeavy, F.

  Thornton, E.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Timmons, J.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Tomney, F.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Usborne, H. C.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Manuel, A. C.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H A

  Warbey, W. N.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Mason, Roy

  Watkins, T. E.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Mayhew, C. P

  Weitzman, D.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Fernyhough, E.

  Mitchison, G. R

  West, D. G.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Monslow, W.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  Moody, A. S.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Follick, M.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Foot, M. M.

  Morley, R.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Forman, J. C.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Willey, F. T.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mort, D. L.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Moyle, A.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Glanville, Jamas

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Willis, E. G.

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Oliver, G. H.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Grey, C. F.

  Orbach, M.

  Winterbottom Richard (Brightside)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Oswald, T.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon A.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Padley, W. E.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Hale, Leslie

  Paget, R. T.

  Yates, V. F.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Hamilton, W. W

  Palmar, A. M. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hannan, W.

  Pannell, Charles

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Arthur Allen.

  2286

  2287

  NOES

  Aitken, W. T.

  Glover, D.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Godber, J. B.

  Morrison. John (Salisbury)

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Gower, H. R.

  Neave, Airey

  Arbuthnot, John

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Grimond, J.

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J M.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Banks, Col. C.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Barber, Anthony

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Barlow, Sir John

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Beach, Maj. Hicks

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Heath, Edward

  Page, R. G.

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Bennett, William (Woodside)

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Pitman, I. J.

  Black, C. W.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Boothby, Sir R. J. G.

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Bossom, Sir A. C.

  Holt, A. F.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A

  Hope, Lord John

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Braine, B. R.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Horobin, I. M.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Braithwaite, Sir Gurney

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Redmayne, M.

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Browne, Jack (Govani)

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Ronton, D. L. M.

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T

  Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Campbell, Sir David

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Carr, Robert

  Jennings, Sir Roland

  Russell, R. S.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Johnson, Eric (Brackley)

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Channon, H.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Scott, R. Donald

  Cole, Norman

  Kerr, H. W.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Colegate, W. A.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Shepherd, William

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Langford-Holt, J. A

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Craddock, Bereford (Spelthorne)

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Lindsay, Martin

  Speir, R. M.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Morthwood)

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh. S.)

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C

  Stewart, Henderson (File, E.)

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Longden, Gilbert

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Storey, S.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Donner, Sir P. W.

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Studholme, H. G.

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Summers, G. S.

  Draysen, G. B.

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Drewe, Sir C.

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Teeling, W.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Maclean, Fitzroy

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

  Erroll, F. J.

  MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Tilney, John

  Fisher, Nigel

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt.Hn. Sir Reginald

  Turton, R. H.

  Ford, Mrs. Patricia

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Fort, R.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Marples, A. E.

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Vosper, D. F.

  Fyfe Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

  Maude, Angus

  Wade, D. W.

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Maudling, R.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St.Marylebene)

  Gammans, L. D.

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Mellor, Sir John

  Wall, Major Patrick

  George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

  Molson, A. H. E

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  2288

  2289

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

  Watkinson, H. A,

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Mr. Kaberry and Mr. Wills.

  Wellwood, W.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  New Clause.—(ESTATE DUTY (EXTENSION OF CERTAIN EXEMPTIONS).)
  (1) The scale of rates of estate duty set out in the Seventh Schedule to the Finance Act, 1949, shall have effect, as respects deaths occurring after the commencement of this Act, with the substitution for the entries relating to estates of a principal value not exceeding five thousand pounds of the following entries:—

  "Principal value of estate

  Rate per cent. of duty

  Not exceeding £3,000

  Nil

  Exceeding £3,000 and not exceeding £4,000

  1

  Exceeding £4,000 and not exceeding £5,000

  2"

  (2) For the purposes of the exemption from estate duty chargeable on property passing on the death of a surviving spouse, estate duty shall be deemed to have been paid on any property passing on the death of the other spouse being property, on which it was not payable, but would have been if the duty were payable on estates of however small a principal value; and in relation to that death the references in this subsection to estate duty hall include estate duty chargeable under the law in force in Northern Ireland.
  (3) Subsection (2) of this section shall apply where the second death occurs after the commencement of this Act, whether or not the first death occurred after that commencement.—[Mr. Assheton.]
  Brought up, and read the First and Second times, and added to the Bill.

  Clause 13.—(VALUATION OF GOODS).
  10.0 p.m.
  The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 9, line 18, to leave out from "seller," to the end of line 19, and to insert:
  "mainly sells to persons whose purchases are substantially greater than those made by the majority of retail traders."
  This Amendment implements a promise made in Committee to re-examine the working of Clause 13 (2), which was criticised during that debate. It introduces no change of principle, but merely provides more clearly that businesses who specialise in supplying stores and other big buyers are excluded from the subsection.
  No doubt the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) will be glad to see that although the Clause, in its origi
  2290
  nal form, did not contain a double negative, the Amendment eliminates the negative altogether. It also meets the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Rochdale (Lieut.Colonel Schofield), who expressed concern about textile firms whose main business was with small people catering for the export trade.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: The Solicitor-General is quite right in saying that the Amendment clarifies what the Government have in mind, as compared with the original form of paragraph (c) of subsection 2. In Committee hon. Members on both sides drew attention to its complete obscurity. Although now, by this draft and in the few words he has spoken tonight, the Solicitor-General has made clear what the Government are trying to do he still has not explained why the Government are doing it or what paragraph (c) is all about.
  In the Committee, the right hon. and learned Gentleman most courteously spent much time explaining what he wanted the Clause to mean, but he did not go to any trouble to explain its purpose. My hon. Friends the Members for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle) and for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) sought in vain to find out what the Government thought they were adding to the Bill by paragraph (c), and all they got was a very welcome assurance from the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the matter would be considered again and that we should see it at a later stage if it was possible to make a better draft.
  Now we have this allegedly better draft and it is clearer, but we have not yet been told why the Government find it necessary to have it at all. It was the hope of my right hon. Friend and myself that we could persuade the Government to drop this paragraph altogether, because it adds nothing to the Bill. Our Amendment to that effect was not selected and I should be out of order in discussing it now. All I would now ask the Solicitor-General, or whomsoever is to reply, is the purpose of the

  2291
  Clause, as it will stand when amended. This is a very narrow point.
  As was stated in Committee, the Government, by including this paragraph (c) in its new, amended form, are raising a point which was not in the Grant Report. Throughout the debate on uplift and in Committee the Government have always said that they could not accept this or that Amendment because it was not in the Grant Report. They would stand foursquare on the Majority Report of the Grant Committee. The right hon. and learned Gentleman quite fairly said in the Committee that the present matter was not included in the Grant Committee Report, and that the reason he was putting it in was to eliminate—I think the word he actually used was "forestall" tax avoidance. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has not told us how that is to be achieved.
  Under subsection (2), we understand, uplift will be retained, first of all in those cases where the price payable is lower on grounds of quantity and, secondly, in those cases where the trader in question is performing wholesaling functions or enjoys other special advantages—and the right hon. and learned Gentleman attempted to explain that; but now, with the proposed Amendment to paragraph (c), we have a third condition, which is that the seller must not sell mainly to big buyers.
  What we do not know is how this will be defined. How do we measure the sales of the seller? How do we measure the size of the big buyer? What we think—and this anxiety may be shared on the other side of the House—is that it gives a great deal of discretion to the Customs and Excise in their application of Purchase Tax. There are bound to be big differences between one trade and another. There are bound to be big differences in the organisation of the retail trade and in the average sizes of purchases of some of the big buyers in one retail trade as compared with another.
  It therefore seems to us that Customs and Excise will to some extent be bound to follow different rules and different standards in the application of this paragraph, which widens the area in which they are free to exercise discretion—and that is always a thing about which the House must be wary.
  2292
  It is true that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has avoided some of the ambiguities and obscurities which shrouded the original draft. He seemed in Committee to be very concerned that traders might be tempted to make token or dummy sales to ordinary retailers at "phoney" prices. He has got away from all that in the new draft—we make no complaint about that—and it is clear that in addition to those who are cut out of the new uplift provisions on grounds of quantity sales, in addition to those who are cut out because they exercise wholesaling functions or enjoy other special advantages, there is now to be a third class of those who sell to big retailers only.
  Had the right hon. and learned Gentleman attempted to tell us why it is necessary to have these three classes, I suppose he would have said that it was designed to help small shopkeepers. He has not told us that, however—although it is probably in his mind—but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, East pointed out in Committee, in a very effective speech on Purchase Tax and uplift—which she said had been one of her preoccupations for some years—the small shopkeeper survives and is popular for quite other reasons. He survives and has his clientele because of the convenience of the situation of the small shop, the nearness to where people live so that customers can slip round the corner and buy what they want without having to pay the bus fare into the town or city or he survives because of the personal service given by the small shopkeeper.
  Against those advantages, the big store can offer a wider choice of goods and advantages of large-scale buying. In the Amendment, the Chancellor—and the right hon. and learned Gentleman in commending it to the House—is saying that those advantages must be offset by the discriminatory tax.
  What I do not think the House is clear about is why it is necessary to add this, because in paragraphs (a) and (b) the particular purchasing advantages, if they are held to be such are dealt with. They deal with the man who enjoys special purchasing advantages, and all the rest. For some reason, the Government want to get a particular kind of seller in order to make certain that the Customs and Excise can catch the sale at both ends. First, they found him in the obscure way in which

  2293
  we dealt with the matter in Committee, and now they find him as a seller who mainly sells to those who make big purchases.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman should explain why it is that such transactions are not brought under paragraph (a), and what is added to the Bill by paragraph (c). I concede that paragraph (c) is an improvement on what we had in front of us earlier, and, certainly, the improvement has been made in response to the criticisms both of my hon. Friends, and also of the hon. and gallant Member for Rochdale (Lieut.-Colonel Schofield), who produced some very obvious criticisms of paragraph (c) as it originally stood.
  The paragraph is still very imprecise, and leaves a great deal of discretion in the hands of the Customs and Excise. Simply because it increases the area of what might be regarded as arbitrary taxation, it is right that the House should be very careful about it, and that we should have a far better explanation than we have had this evening of why the Amendment has been introduced, or why paragraph (c) is in the Clause at all.
  The Solicitor-General: With the leave of the House, I will certainly endeavour to give the right hon. Gentleman the answers to the questions he has put to me. I dealt with this matter pretty fully in Committee, and I thought that I had explained what paragraph (c) was intended to deal with. Because I did not wish to weary the House by repeating the explanation, in moving the Amendment I dealt merely with the drafting changes.
  The first criticism made in Committee, which the right hon. Gentleman has repeated, was that paragraph (c) was not one of the recommendations contained in the Grant Report. Of course it was not. We know that perfectly well. We have never said that we would stick absolutely rigidly to the four corners of the Grant Report, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested. We said that we would adhere to the main lines of it, and this paragraph (c) follows from the recommendations of the majority in that Report. It follows, and has to follow, if effect is to be given to those recommendations.
  The right hon. Gentleman started by saying quite accurately that paragraphs
  2294
  (a) and (b) set out two of the conditions which have to be satisfied, namely, that the goods have to be bought in normal retail quantities, and, secondly, that the retailer performs no wholesale functions and has no special buying advantage over the generality of retailers. I quite agree that paragraph (c) imposes an additional qualification, namely, that the supplier mainly sells goods in the normal retail quantities, but that is also a factor which affects prices. To give an example, a manufacturer who specialises in selling to a few big stores can usually sell much more cheaply to the small retailers because he recovers his overheads on the large orders and avoids the risk of catering for the general retail trade.
  10.15 p.m.
  As I think I made clear in Committee, this paragraph (c) is necessary for two reasons. First, the one to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, the necessity of forestalling tax avoidance practices under which suppliers to the big stores might make token or dummy sales to small retailers with a view to avoiding uplift. That is one object. The other is to see that the manufacturers or wholesalers who cater for the big stores are not put in the same assessment category as those who cater for the general retail trader and incur greater distribution costs.
  I hope that I have explained to the right hon. Gentleman the object of subsection (2, c). He has criticised the wording of it but it is desirable that there should be some measure of flexibility. The wording of the Amendment now is that the seller
  "mainly sells to persons whose purchases are substantially greater …"
  "Mainly" is a word which is frequently found in tariff definitions and in practice has not given rise to any difficulty in application. It will usually be taken a; relating to whether more than half the supplier's home trade in the class of goods being valued is with the ordinary retailer or other small buyers though his trade in other goods may also be taken into account if it affects the price; and "substantially" is necessary so that the supplier will not lose the benefits of subsection (2) merely because he sells in quantities only slightly above the average sales to retail traders generally.
  I have replied to the questions which the right hon. Gentleman has put to me

  2295
  about the reasons this subsection is necessary. I have only repeated what I said about that in Committee. So far as the Amendment is concerned, the right hon. Gentleman recognises that it is an improvement on the original wording of the Bill, and I entirely agree.
  Mr. H. Wilson: We are not worried about the word "mainly." It is often found in statutes of all kinds and frequently in Customs tariffs; but surely the rest of the Amendment is much more vague. It does not say, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to imply, that the seller mainly sells in quantity. It states:
  "mainly sells to persons whose purchases are substantially greater …"
  Surely that is very vague. "Mainly" is a good working definition, but surely this must mean that the Customs and Excise Department will have a great deal of discretion in deciding whether the purchases of a retailer are or are not
  "substantially greater than those made by the majority of retail traders."
  and whether a particular seller is mainly dealing with people whose purchases are
  "substantially greater than those made by the majority of retail traders."
  I hoped that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would deal with that point, which is still very vague and imprecise.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: Would it not appear that this provision is necessary where retailers who have a great number of retail shops buy centrally, so that the purchases by central buying can, therefore, be treated as not being normal retail purchases? That would seem to be desirable, and if that is what this is intended to cover I think it desirable and necessary.
  Mr. A. Hargreaves: I should like a further explanation from the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I am not denying that the Amendment is an improvement on the original subsection, in that it makes it positive rather than negative. It retains the word "mainly" which the right hon. and learned Gentleman attempted to define, but it does appear to be a case where this admittedly vague phrase is determined in practice by the Customs and Excise officers.
  To adduce the evidence, may I remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman of
  2296
  the criticism that was made of this particular phraseology in Committee? I should like to direct the attention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, as I have already directed the attention of the Treasury, to a particular case. It is said that "mainly" means more than half. But, in practice, that is by no means accepted in the application of this Clause. Outside this Chamber "mainly" apparently means "preponderantly, overwhelmingly"—not a particular percentage, but 80 per cent, to 90 per cent.
  In Committee we argued about manufacturers engaged in trade and the amount of their trade distributed as between wholesalers and retailers. It was mentioned during that discussion that a working arrangement had been arrived at between the trade concerned and the Customs and Excise, whereby, in the case of a firm with more than a certain number of retail accounts and whose overhead costs came to a certain percentage, the Customs and Excise readily brought them under this Clause.
  But, again, we come up against this word "mainly." Although the Customs and Excise arrangements, in their negotiations with the manufacturers concerned, related to 250 retail accounts, in this instance to which I have drawn the attention of the Department there are 1,200 retail accounts, as well as accounts of makers-up amounting to 600. Yet they are excluded from the operation of the Clause because of the word "mainly."
  Another case on which negotiations were conducted between the Customs and Excise on these vague generalities concerned a firm 60 per cent. of whose products went to the Australian export market and 40 per cent. to the home market, until we had the stoppage of Australian exports. Unfortunately, the export trade dropped, so that the percentages were 40 per cent. export and 60 per cent. home market. It is not clear, even at this stage, although those percentages may vary month by month—
  Mr. Burden: If I may interrupt the hon. Gentleman, the question of exports does not enter into this matter at all. There is no Purchase Tax chargeable at all in the case of registered firms who are exporting. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman is confusing the issue.
  Mr. Hargreaves: I have not made myself clear. I am not concerned with the question whether Purchase Tax is or is not paid. The assessment is made not on the payment of Purchase Tax but according to the proportion of home and export trade. If only 40 per cent. of one's manufacturing products were consumed at home and the Customs and Excise authorities made an assessment on that basis, it is obvious that one has suffered.
  I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that although the Amendment improves the Clause it still does not satisfy the needs of firms in this difficulty, and it will certainly enable the Customs and Excise authorities to make an arrangement—euphemistically called a voluntary arrangement—with a firm for the payment of Purchase Tax at 40 per cent. Leaving out of account the question of production for export, I suggest that the Amendment needs to be re-examined, because it will still enable the Customs and Excise authorities to enforce the payment of Purchase Tax. The Amendment should be looked at again to meet the objections which I have mentioned.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: Until the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) spoke I thought that I was fairly clear about the position. The hon. Member for Gillingham appeared to confuse the situation completely by suggesting that the Amendment was designed to deal with a situation where a large retailer was using a central buying organisation and arriving at an advantage as a result. I hope that that is not the position. I thought that that was dealt with by paragraphs (a) and (b), and that the Amendment was designed to deal with the situation where the seller, through an efficient method of distribution arising from an association with large retailers, is able to do something, quite independently of the retailers, at a lower cost than he would otherwise have been able to do it.
  If I am correct in that interpretation of the position we ought to appreciate just how far we are leaning over backwards to help the small shopkeepers. We are saying not only that the big retail stores enjoy the advantage of buying large-scale purchases by virtue of doing their own wholesaling but also, that if the seller is able to do things slightly
  2298
  more cheaply and efficiently because the majority of his customers are big retailers—even though he is selling to some small retailers at the same advantageous price—he is still to be penalised further by having uplift placed upon his sales. If that is so, it makes the position better than it was under the Bill as originally drafted, although it is not really satisfactory.
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Hargreaves), with his practical experience, made a very valuable point of which the Government must take notice. The best that can be said for the Amendment is that it is some improvement on the words that stood originally in the Bill, which we criticised so successfully in Committee. All that the Solicitor-General has done has been to repeat in very much the same language the speech which he made on 26th May, when he commended the original form of words which, because of our criticism, have now been withdrawn.
  The Solicitor-General has added nothing of substance to what he said then. What is even more serious is that he has repeated something to which I take violent objection. He said that there must be a measure of flexibility in this matter. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Helens (Sir H. Shawcross) has said, that is something which ought not to be in legislation of a quasi-penal nature. The Government must take the trouble of putting their legislation in clear, precise and definite a form as possible.
  It is really shameful that the Government should produce legislation of this kind. It is even more scandalous that a Law Officer of the Crown should justify it on the ground that there should be a measure of flexibility. I was brought up to believe that the cardinal principle of our jurisprudence was that the law must be clear and intelligible. The Government are going entirely against that principle.
  What is the result of the Solicitor-General's clamour that there should be this flexibility and that this provision should be expressed in loose, ill-defined words? Does it help him? Does it mean that because the provision is loose and

  2299
  flexible the taxpayer is to have a disadvantage? If that is the Solicitor-General's idea, I hope he is profoundly mistaken. The Commissioners of Customs and Excise will have to take notice not only of what the Government show to be their intentions, but of the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle, Surely the result of this flexibility must be that the benefit of any doubt must be given to the taxpayer and not to the Revenue. Therefore, I should have thought that from the Solicitor-General's point of view it defeats the object which he wants to achieve of having the law clearly understood and, therefore effectively administered.
  We, on this side of the House, are obviously in the procedural difficulty that we cannot very well vote against the Amendment in its entirety, because we think it an improvement on the original words, though it is not very much of an improvement since it still contains very vague words such as "mainly," and "substantially greater," and nobody knows what that means, and "the majority of retail traders." Does that mean a majority in numbers or in value or in a particular industry?
  In form, the Solicitor-General is moving an Amendment to leave out all the words in subsection (2, c) after the word "seller." We have on the Order Paper an Amendment, which has not been called, to leave out all the words in lines 18 and 19 of the Clause. I would have preferred to have left them out; and if it were possible I would have voted to have left out all the words proposed after "sellers," but I would not support the words that the Solicitor-General wishes to insert. If I did that, the result would be that subsection (2, c) would read, "that the seller." I do not think that that would be any more ridiculous than the words the right hon. and learned Gentleman has proposed.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I beg to move, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be adjourned."
  We have made considerable progress today. We have dealt with all the new
  2300
  Clauses, and completed the Amendments as far as Clause 13. When I looked at the Order Paper yesterday, I thought it doubtful whether we should get through the new Clauses on the first of the two days, and still less that we should get so far in the Bill. We pass next to Clause 16, which deals with investment allowances, on which we have two important Amendments, but I feel it would be much more appropriate to consider them tomorrow afternoon. There is not much more ground to cover before we complete the Report stage, and in the circumstances I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accept the Motion.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I understand that if this Motion had not been moved we would have reached the Amendment to Clause 16, page 11, line 19. It is true that we have made good progress but the Government would have preferred to make further progress tonight for the reason that they want to be absolutely sure of reaching the other business down for tomorrow night at the reasonable hour already defined by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. We do not expect to be longer than about 8 o'clock in finishing this stage, making allowances for the normal difficulties of navigating. If we could have that understanding, as far as an understanding can be reached on such business, I am perfectly ready to agree to the Motion.
  It may well be taken as reasonable, if the right hon. Gentleman does not rise to correct me, that we should achieve that business at the hour I have mentioned. That will enable us to take the business without keeping the House late tomorrow night, which we have no desire to do. Thus we could do two evenings preserving our tempers and without ruining our constitutions. Pending any unfavourable news which may break in, it would not be a bad thing for the House to rise early to enable us to regain our constitutions and physiques. Subject to human fallibility, I suggest that we accept the Motion.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill, as amended (in Committee and on recommittal), to be further considered Tomorrow.

MINING INDUSTRY (MANPOWER)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Sir C. Drewe.]
10.40 p.m.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I wish to call attention to the problem of manpower in the mining industry and to elicit from the Government some idea of what their practical proposals are to deal with this problem which has been raised in Questions to Ministers and has also been the subject of very important and impressive speeches by miners' leaders. There is no doubt at all that the problem of man power in this industry is one which will be more and more apparent as time goes on and one to which this House will have to give serious attention.
First, I want to deal with some of the warnings which have been given by responsible leaders of the National Union of Mineworkers, who have been in conference this week. The President, Mr. Ernest Jones, has said that at least 725,000 miners are needed for the industry and the Secretary, Mr. Arthur Homer, pointed out the danger of between 3 million to 4 million unemployed, or on short time in other industries, through a possible coal shortage if we do not get at least an extra 3 million tons output this year. He was sceptical about getting it from our own pits, hence the need for coal imports, and he was angry at outsiders grumbling. He pointed out that the miners are doing their best and that the traditional recruiting grounds of the mining population, which have been the mining areas, have dried up and that men have to be attracted from outside by better conditions.
The President of the National Union of Mineworkers was equally emphatic. He has appealed to the miners to do their utmost to produce the necessary output, pointing out that the alternative to more coal output is a coal shortage with a slowing down of industry, short-time working and the cutting of exports, or importation of European and possibly American coal. Mr. Jones has stated
2302
out that this crisis is rapidly developing. He certainly did his share by appealing to his union and in saying:
"Let us grit our teeth against all these alternatives and make the effort to ensure that the extra required is produced from our pits."
Mr. Horner pointed out that absenteeism is less, that manpower has fallen, that output per manshift overall and at the coal face is higher, yet we have a crisis.
I am aware that there is a slight difference of opinion which has been expressed in a speech today by Sir Hubert Houldsworth, Chairman of the National Coal Board. Nevertheless, Sir Hubert Houldsworth, who, apparently, differs slightly from the miners' leaders, has emphasised that there is a shortage of 12,000 miners to produce this necessary coal and that that is the problem now confronting us. I am anxious that the Government should state their policy. I am quite sure that those of us who represent mining areas, and the responsible leaders of the miners' union, are quite ready to co-operate with the Government in any reasonable attempt that is made to face this problem in the interests of the mining industry and the interests of the nation.
There is now a general opinion in the House that the nationalisation of the mines must be accepted as a fact and that we must do our best, in a non-party spirit, to see that what is one of our greatest national industries has the necessary manpower and the necessary opportunity to carry on its work in the interests of the nation. That was emphasised by hon. Members opposite in a recent debate. The hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) said:
"I have had the privilege of seeing, hearing and knowing people who are thoroughly practical in every way … I infinitely prefer to listen to a miner or a cotton worker than to any professor from either side of the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd July, 1954; Vol. 529, c. 1678.]
In fact, on the Third Reading of the Mines and Quarries Bill there were compliments all round; but what the industry needs now is not compliments so much as men. We want the co-operation of hon. Members opposite to see that the men come into the industry.
I stress that the mining areas in the past have produced the men and now we are looking around the other areas repre

2303
sented by hon. Members opposite who are very vocal and critical of the miners at Question time in the House. We want their assistance so that the manpower can be obtained.
I should like to ask the Minister whether he can make any effort not to exploit but to capitalise the speech of the hon. Member for Torquay and to get recruits from that place. I am sure that the citizens of Torquay should be in exactly the same position to become acquainted with all the virtues of the miners and the industry as are people in other places. For my part, I am prepared to go down to Torquay with some of my hon. Friends, or to Brighton or Bournemouth, and to speak on any platform to call for recruits for the industry from these areas whose representatives are so clamant in their demands that we should have more and better coal.
It is interesting to note that the main criticism of the miners has come from Members who represent constituencies in the South of England. For instance, the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) said in the House recently that the only solution was to increase the production of coal if the country was to survive. He also said that to import coal was sheer lunacy. I should like the Minister of Labour to agree to send a recruiting van to Orpington, so that the hon. Member can co-operate with us and that Orpington might have more coal.
Recently, the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. R. Bell) asked the Minister of Fuel and Power
"… whether he will accelerate the supply of large house coal to the Amersham area of Buckinghamshire in order that householders may be enabled to obtain summer delivery of their supplies.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st June, 1954; Vol. 528, c. 15.]
Why should Buckinghamshire not help? Why should we not get our quota of miners for the mining industry from Buckinghamshire? Why should those areas in the South of England, which are represented by hon. and gallant Members, who are so critical at Question time of the mining industry, Orpington, Buckinghamshire, Torquay and Exeter, all those suburban areas and coastal areas in the South of England, not contribute their share towards solving the problem of manpower in the mining industry?
2304
We want a different approach to the mines if we are to make this great national industry of ours a success. In the past, it has been regarded as an honourable career to go into the Guards. Why should not people, who have hitherto gone into the Guards, go into the coal mines, because coal is absolutely necessary for our industrial production? I believe that mining is just as honourable a profession. We want that idea accepted and we want the assistance of hon. Members on the other side of the House in this way.
I remember when, in the First World War, the mines were combed to find men for the Army. I wonder whether it would not be a good thing to comb out the Army to get recruits for the coal mines. Is it not possible, for example, that we might give an opportunity to the 80,000 men who are in the Suez Canal area to swell the manpower of the coal mining industry? Why should an example not be set by the leaders of public opinion?
Would it not help to stimulate enthusiasm for the coal mines, if, for example, a couple of dukes decided to take up mining as an honourable profession? Would it not be a good thing if this recruiting campaign were extended to Eton, Harrow, Oxford and Cambridge and a really all-round, all-party drive were conducted to get miners from those areas to swell the ranks who have hitherto done the dirty, drudgery work of the community?
The Minister of Labour should be a little more resourceful in his recruiting activities. I think he could use the energy and enthusiasm of the hon. Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore). He ought to send his recruiting van to Ascot or Epsom to see whether any recruits could be enrolled in that way. The hon. Member for Ayr would be prepared to deliver a recruiting speech between the races.
I know it is over-optimistic of me to think that these sensible suggestions are likely to be adopted. But, surely, we ought to have an indication from the Government of their short-term and long-term plans on how they propose to deal with the very pressing and important question of how we are to get the men necessary to produce the coal which is required.
That is a vital and important question which has to be solved if British

2305
industry is to be kept going and our economic problems solved. I hope that we shall hear from the Minister an outline of his plans. I can assure him that any reasonable proposals that he puts before the House will be gladly considered by those who have the honour to represent mining areas, and we would regard it as a privilege if we had the opportunity to help.
I represent a mining area which, not long ago, came to public attention when a mine was flooded and there was a very heroic and successful rescue. The name of Knockshinnoch will always be remembered in the annals of mining rescues. I was at the pithead for two days and two nights, working and co-operating with representatives of every section of public opinion directly interested in the rescue work. There, around a table, were the chairman of the National Coal Board in Scotland, the Earl of Balfour, Arthur Homer, the Communist—people who had been at daggers drawn and fighting bitter battles in the industrial arena.
Before us was a map, with arrows showing where the men were entombed. I remember the wonderful spirit of cooperation and comradeship which prevailed during those two grim days. That should be the spirit which should animate the mining industry in its problems. I hope that in something of that spirit we shall have a statement from the Parliamentary Secretary which will give some confidence and hope for the future.
10.57 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I am very glad that the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) has raised this matter, and equally glad that he ended on the note that he chose. Half way through his speech I was deciding that it would be a pity to make fun of this subject, on which the very life of the country depends, and I do not think that he really means me to follow him in his very light and amusing flights of fancy about Eton, Torquay and other places.
It is my duty, I think, not to take this problem at all lightly, but to try to perform the duty of the Ministry of Labour, which is to give the facts. If we know the facts in this case—and I am not saying that I agree with the hon. Member
2306
as to what the facts are—we shall, perhaps, come to a clear knowledge of what we have to do and what a great industry has to do to fulfil its national duty.
I must say, quite frankly, that the reason the mining industry has not met its promised target for this year has nothing at all to do, in the short run, with manpower. I must make that plain, because it is an entirely contrary view to that expressed by the hon. Member. I think that I cannot do better than quote from the speech Sir Hubert Houldsworth made to the mining industry today. He said:
"A 2½ per cent. increase nationally in production in 1954 with existing underground manpower is a reasonable minimum aim."
I am not arguing this, and I quite agree with the hon. Member that there is no party politics in this, but let us get the facts right and not delude ourselves that there is some easy way out of the difficulties.
I want particularly to deal with that point. I am sure that I carry the whole House with me when I say that it is unfortunate that the increased productivity of British industry as a whole is not being matched in the coalmining industry. Therefore, as the hon. Member rightly pointed out, we are faced with having to use some of the hard-earned foreign currency that we receive from our exports to buy coal from our competitors. That is a most disheartening position for those in industry and for those working so hard in the shop in an endeavour to compete with German and Japanese competition.
The hon. Member rather indicated that if we could get a lot more men into the mines right away it would solve the problem. I must say, in support of the statement by Sir Hubert Houldsworth which I read to the House, that as part of their wage settlement the N.U.M. agreed with the National Coal Board only in January last on a target of 2½ per cent. increase in coal production this year. That is roughly 5 million tons of coal, and, as Sir Hubert said today, we have still to get 3¾ million tons before the end of the year if we are to reach that target.
If the alibi is correct, that the present position is due to loss of and lack of workers, then the number of face

2307
workers must have fallen very substantially since that promise was made. I am afraid that that is not so, and I must give the facts. Since January, there has been an increase of over 1,000 in the total number of wage earners on the colliery books of the National Coal Board. I quite agree that new recruits are not much good at the face for a very long time, but, none the less, there has been a net intake of 1,000 new recruits as against a decrease of about 700 face workers.
That represents only a 0·3 per cent. loss in the number of face workers, so that there is really no logical excuse, as Sir Hubert rightly said, for a failure to meet the minimum target of 5 million tons, or an increase of 2½ per cent., set for this year. Having made that plain, I am not saying that we do not want more men in the mines. But we do not want them spread equally over all the coalfields. We want them in places such as the rapidly developing North-Eastern area of the National Coal Board: Yorkshire and the surrounding areas. There, the Board could employ a good many thousands more men. That is not denied. But that is the second thing we have to make plain.
I do not accept the hon. Member's point about a lot of criticism being made from this side of the House, or, for that matter, from either side, about miners. But it is the duty of this House and of every hon. Member to point out that the mining industry is not reaching its essential output target in the national interest. That, surely, is the duty of each one of us, and it is not a criticism of individual miners.
The deficiency is not satisfactorily explained on manpower grounds, because the face workers have not substantially decreased. There are obviously enough of them to enable the industry to reach the promised target which, as I have said, was part of the wages settlement in January. The second thing is that where we want more miners is not throughout the country as a whole, but in the developing areas. It is only fair to the National Coal Board to say that it has been trying very hard to get the men, and it is now, as I think the hon. Member knows, conducting a nation-wide propaganda campaign in an endeavour to attract miners into the developing areas.
2308
We are trying to attract men by offering houses; by running a coupon scheme with which I expect hon. Members are familiar; and conducting this very wide recruiting campaign. More than 14,000 coupons have been returned, and more than 8,000 men have returned application forms for this great change-over operation. Fourteen hundred have already accepted jobs. That is a good result to this practical operation. It is an operation which is more practical than sending recruiting vans to Torquay, Eton, and Harrow. These men are skilled miners. They are the people we want.
More generally, the Ministry in the past has carried out several quite successful recruiting campaigns. It is prepared to do that again, and in collaboration with the Ministry of Fuel and Power it is examining the position to see how it can help. What has to be done is first to see how many miners we can attract from the declining into the expanding areas. That is in the miners' interest.
I cannot think of anything more dreadful for a skilled man working at a skilled trade—for it is a skilled trade and, as we know, a dangerous one—than to see his livelihood diminishing as a pit is worked out, knowing that while he must be left without work, in another part of the country his services are needed. Such men must be offered new homes if they are to be persuaded to move. The National Coal Board's building programme is one way to solve the problem. Something is being done, but it is only fair to say that not enough is yet being done.
I congratulate the hon. Member for South Ayrshire for raising this matter appropriately at the moment when the miners are in conference. Government policy certainly is first to state the facts; which is what I have tried to do tonight. I must say again that I hope we shall not fall into the error of imagining that the present manpower position is an alibi for deficiency of production. We need more men in certain areas. The National Coal Board is pursuing this scheme, and the Government are considering what plans must be made. It is no good trying to recruit during the summer, but as soon as the autumn comes we must think again about plans for a proposed nationwide recruiting campaign. I am glad to say that the number of boys going into

2309
the pits is increasing a little; but it must increase more.
There are, therefore, three points to be considered. First, the present man- power position is no alibi for deficiency of production; secondly, we must persuade miners to move from worked out areas to new areas; and, thirdly, the Government must keep the manpower situation under review and must be prepared to increase recruiting in the autumn, if that seems to be the best way to improve the position.
2310
I hope that I have given the hon. Member a factual answer. I agree that this is a matter for the attention of the whole House. It is a matter affecting the livelihood of the country. I hope that every hon. Member will do what he can in this matter. It is also a matter for the miners who, when they see what their duty is, will, I believe, do it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Nine Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.

TELEPHONE SERVICE
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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
  VISCOUNT THURSO
  The Right Honourable Sir Archibald Henry Macdonald Sinclair, Baronet, K.T., C.M.G., having been created Viscount Thurso, of Ulbster in the County of Caithness—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD HARVEY OF TASBURGH
The Right Honourable Sir Oliver Charles Harvey, G.C.M.G., G.C.V.O., C.B., having been created Baron Harvey of Tasburgh, of Tasburgh in the County of Suffolk—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

REGISTRATION OF OPTICIANS
3.0 p.m.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS LORD MILNER OF LEEDS rose to draw attention to the Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on the Statutory Registration of Opticians (Cmd. 8531); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper in the hope that we may secure from the Government a statement of policy on the Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee which was appointed as long ago as September 23, 1949, under the able Chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Crook. I would remind your Lordships that the terms of reference of that Committee were:
"To advise, on the assumption that it would be to the public interest that provision should be made by legislation for the registration of opticians, how registration could best be carried out and what qualifications should be required as a condition of registration."
Your Lordships will appreciate that the subject matter was one of considerable controversy. There were many lively points of view and, in particular, considerable divergence between the viewpoints of medical men and opticians. The
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opticians themselves were not united in their outlook. Those opticians who examine eyes comprised some five main optical bodies and they all possessed differing points of view. In respect of dispensing opticians, there were two organisations. Each of those had a different approach and they were, apparently, united only in one thing—their opposition to many of the views of the five organisations of the examining opticians. Then there were the eye specialists of the medical world, who also had a completely different point of view from the examining opticians.
To this Inter-Departmental Committee, therefore, the Ministers of Health and the Department of Scotland appointed, in their personal capacity, representatives of all those divergent interests, together with a representative of the hospital world and an educationalist, who was also a Member of another place. All those members were undoubtedly anxious to do something to improve the present position, but all were likely to desire to reach different conclusions by different methods. They all wished to do something because they were all conscious of the weakness of the existing position: the matter of standard qualifications; the multiplicity of examinations; the performance and function of eye-testing in surroundings which were not of the best; the sale of spectacles on sight-testing carried out by customers themselves in multiple stores or by cheapjacks in the markets. For the truth is that, surprising as it may be in these days of a great Government-sponsored Health Service, there would appear to be nothing like the control of opticians that there was in good King Charles's day over 300 years ago.
In 1629, Charles I granted a Charter to the Worshipful Company of Spectacle Makers. This Charter provided for
"(1) the better rule and government of spectacle making; (2) the profit and relief of good and honest men; (3) the fear and terror of evil and wicked offenders."
That Company were given quite substantial powers. They had power
"(i) to set down reasonable laws, statutes and decrees; (ii) to provide for honest trade; (iii) to arrange for the punishment of abuses and deceit."

469
These deceits and wrong practices were described as
"uttering bad or hurtful wares whereby our loving subjects may be wronged or abused."
Powers were also given to the Worshipful Company to inspect the premises of those trading, to seize the bad wares and to fine those responsible. In the following year, 1630, the then Lord Chancellor approved by-laws for the Worshipful Company, which included provision as to training in the art of spectacle-making, the suppression of bad workmanship and the elimination of hawkers. Yet, to-day, after all that space of time, there is no provision by law or rule for training; there is no control over the quality of spectacles, and no power to suppress the hawkers who still sell spectacles, I regret to say, to simple inoffensive men and women in the market squares of my own home county of Yorkshire.
It would appear that the Worshipful Company exercised their powers to the full until the breakdown of the old apprenticeship system. Then, of course, the change in the economic life of the country, due to the Industrial Revolution, had some effect. Apparently the Worshipful Company then lost their original interest in controlling their craft, and the hundred years that followed were free of any control in respect of spectacle-making, to the profit of the few and the great harm of the many. Fortunately, in 1896, there was an awakening of a new spirit, and the Court of the Worshipful Company appointed a sub-committee which included two Members of another place, Sir Horatio Davies and Alderman Sir Marcus Samuel, who subsequently came to your Lordships' House as Viscount Bearsted. As a result of the activities of this committee, an examination in visual optics was established. Five years later the Worshipful Company received recommendations from Lord Kelvin, the Earl of Rosse and many other scientists of repute, including Sir William Crookes and the Astronomer Royal, urging that sight-testing be added to the scope of the examinations.
Under the Mastership of another Member of the other place, who was also eventually to become a Member of your Lordships' House as Lord Aldenham, such an examination was initiated in 1904. Nothing further in the nature of any attempt at control of opticians took
470
place until 1926. In that year a Joint Council of qualified opticians promoted a Bill entitled "The Optical Practitioners (Registration) Bill," and after debate in the House an Inter-departmental Committee was appointed. This was under the chairmanship of another distinguished Member of your Lordships' House, Viscount Kemsley. The Majority Report of that Committee rejected registration, although there were two Minority Reports. I will not trouble your Lordships with the relative extract from the Report of 1927, but if your Lordships are interested you can see it in paragraph 15 of the Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee which we are now discussing.
So it is that opticians have remained unregistered, while Bills have come before Parliament, from time to time, dealing with dentists, nurses, midwives, those responsible for drugs, solicitors, and, of course, the great medical profession. The important section of the community whose services could make or mar the eyesight and lives of the ordinary men and women remain without any legislative provision whatever. But at last there is hope, for, to the surprise of most people, and no doubt largely due to the tact of the Chairman of the Committee, my noble friend Lord Crook, all the divergent views expressed before the Committee were brought together into one unanimous Report by the Committee—a rather remarkable feat.
The Report of the Crook Committee records in paragraph 6:
"We are glad that the Committee, including as it does personnel representative of the medical profession, ophthalmic opticians and dispensing opticians as well as of educationists, is able to present a unanimous Report and recommendation for action."
If, in the public interest, it was possible to secure this unanimous Report from those most closely interested, Parliament should surely be ready to pass legislation to secure the desired objective without undue delay. I have heard, informally, of the keen attention which the Minister of Health has given to this Report, and I hope that in the course of this debate the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, who I understand is to speak for the Government, may be able to indicate that the Government propose to implement the Report by introducing legislation at the earliest possible date. In moving the

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Motion standing in my name, I would only add that I am sure your Lordships will agree that our thanks are due to the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and to the Committee for the services they have rendered in what, I submit, is a most important matter, affecting, as it does, in no small degree the health and happiness of so many people. I hope that their unanimous Report will receive the prompt attention that it deserves. I beg to move for Papers.
3.10 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I want to say just a few words in support of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, that the Report of the Crook Committee be accepted by Her Majesty's Government. Apart from being a very good Report indeed, it seems to me quite remarkable that the Report should have been signed unanimously by all the members of the Committee. One of the things I am always most pleased to see is the desire of a body of professional people to form a register and to have a council to control their activities. If there is a register not only does it mean that a very high standard can be maintained, but one also finds a good deal of continuity in that standard. My own profession has been lucky to have been in possession of a register for a great number of years, and I am sure your Lordships will all agree with me that the establishment of the Medical Register has done a lot to improve and maintain the standard of medicine in this country.
Further, I was pleased to see in the Report that the General Council which is to be set up will consist, in the main, of persons coming from the profession itself, and not front outside their sphere altogether. That is something which ought to be encouraged. From time to time one sees the type of council being set up where the majority control of the council is not vested in the profession. I am glad to see that in this particular case that that is not so.
There is one point which I wish very tentatively to put in front of the Minister. There seems to be a certain amount of difficulty with regard to one particular group of people who practise orthoptics—that is, the training of the eyes by means of exercise and not by means of glasses. It is rather uncertain from the
472
Report whether these people should come under the General Optical Council or whether they should be left to medical auxiliaries, as I believe they are at present. I hope that the Minister will be able to discuss that matter and to ensure that, on whatever side they come, they come in a contented way, and not in a spirit of discontent. I think I need have no worry about it, as I am sure that Her Majesty's Government will seee that the right thing is done. I do not wish to detain your Lordships any longer in regard to this matter. I am sure that noble Lords on these Benches, who have been much strengthened by the new edition to our ranks this afternoon, support this Motion.
3.14 p.m.
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, I rise merely as a layman in this matter, and as one of the consuming public, in support of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds. Some little time ago I found myself in discussion with some friends of mine whose professions lie in the ophthalmic branches of science. They mentioned to me the subject of the Crook Report and its recommendations. At that time I had not read the Report, and in discussion with them it seemed to me, in the public interest and in the interests of the gradual upgrading of professional status, quite essential that certain things should be done; and I scribbled them down on a piece of paper. My friends then asked me, "What have you been scribbling down?", and I said, "Obviously, somebody will have to form categories"; whereupon, of course, they laughed and said, "Well, we think you had better read the Report." Finding, therefore, that the recommendations in the Report were identical with my own mental aberrations, I was naturally fortified in the assurance that we were both quite right.
It appears that, judging this profession alongside any other profession, it cannot possibly be wrong—indeed, that it is clearly much overdue in the public interest—that there should be set up a body having the power and duty to form and maintain categories of specialists in this field. It appears to me also—and I am sure that I shall find no dissent to this proposition in any quarter of your Lordships' House—that the principle of separation of professional advice from

473
any hint or possibility of financial interest in another branch of a profession which may supply things is absolutely essential, both for the protection of the public and for the self-respect and the proper control of that profession. I see that it is considered likely—I think the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, would agree—that in the natural course of events the three categories proposed should be elided and become two: the first, purely advisory, and dealing with the technical study, and the second, the supply and selling of glasses. That again, from a layman's point of view, seems wholly logical and desirable. Therefore, as I say, purely as a layman, I register my support of the words that fell from the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds; and may I hope that my noble friend Lord Woolton will in due course be able to bless that Report.
3.17 p.m.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, it was suggested to me that, as Chairman of the Committee, I ought to run the risk of boring your Lordships by making some reference to the terms of the Report and its content. May I, however, commence by thanking my noble friend Lord Milner of Leeds for initiating this debate, and also my noble friends Lord Amulree and Lord Limerick for the kindly words that they have addressed to the House with regard to the Report. I hope that when the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, who normally smiles at me across the Table, comes to make the Government reply, he will be able to deal nearly as kindly with the Report.
When His late Majesty's Government of 1949 invited me to undertake this task I was faced with the gloomy knowledge that doctors disagreed with opticians, and that the opticians disagreed amongst themselves, not only as between dispensing and ophthalmic opticians but even amongst varied organisations representing the ophthalmic opticians themselves. When I was told, that the Committee were to include representatives of most of those interests, influential members of the medical profession, including ophthalmologists and a couple of professors, I realised that some of the gloomy forebodings were in the main true. But I should like to pay tribute to all the members of that Committee who, after two and a half years of hard work, found
474
themselves getting closer and closer together and who finally were able, in the public interest, to sign a Report which, though it did not represent to any one of them 100 per cent. of what he would have liked to achieve, enabled a unanimous document to be presented for the consideration of the Government of the day.
I believe that the members felt as I do, that it is unthinkable that a nation such as ours, which can embark upon great social and health service schemes such as we have, can live to-day in the position in which one of the great things which we possess, namely, sight, can be treated by people without any legal qualifications whatsoever. I have become ultra-eye conscious since I was made to look at these matters in 1949. I am now in the position where I should fear above all other things to lose my sight and never again to see God's sunlight and blue sky and trees. I think I always knew how great an affliction some of our colleagues suffered, but never so much as when I began to study this problem.
Yet, as the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, has made clear, nothing has been done by legislation, and over a long period of time the people of this country wanting eye service have to a large extent been entirely dependent upon the voluntary efforts of the optical people themselves. From 1895 onwards, they set up some five different organisations which had varying standards for their qualifications, standards varying not only between themselves but inside their own organisations from time to time. In those early days, many of them had little or no academic training, many had their training only by evening classes or part-time education. Indeed, part-time education exists even now, though of a very much better kind; but it is gradually on the way out. When we look at some of the diplomas granted in the past by some of the organisations we are unable to reach an effective evaluation of their work without regard to a great deal of past history, much of it not available to us.
The standards of at least three of the organisations have been carefully controlled, but in respect of two, as your Lordships will have seen from the Report of the Committee, it was found necessary to express some doubt whether, in the

475
confirmative diplomas, there was the care about academic and training qualifications that we should all like to see. I am glad to learn informally that perhaps some of the criticisms offered in the Report have already had the effect of improving that matter in at least some respects. I think the main thing is that fortunately the public has been able to rely, over a long period of time, on a very reliable body of ophthalmic opticians who in their voluntary effort have gone out of their way to try to create for themselves training and qualifications standards that were not set down by any system of legislation. One of their most recent efforts referred to in the Report, the creation of a Joint Advisory Board which has drawn up a syllabus for a common examination, represents one of the newer developments. I would not be so foolish as to suggest that when the Joint Optical Council is appointed the J.A.B. syllabus should be regarded as completely adequate for future years, but I am certain it represents a perfectly good starting place for the General Optical Council and that it is something on which the profession will be able to build. We have all to realise that opportunities of education for this profession are very limited anywhere in this country, not only because of the small number of schools but also because of the complete absence of some of the most essential parts of the training. Clinical training is fairly unknown; at any rate, not to exaggerate, it is certainly not present in any large degree.
That leads me automatically to an important point which I would press upon your Lordships—that is, the absence of co-operation so far, in the training of these opticians, of the members or the medical profession. For various reasons, many of them quite good ones, members of the medical profession, to the extent that they have taken any part in the academic education or training at all, have largely been devoting themselves to anatomical and physiological aspects, and have played little or no part in any other medical assistance in clinical studies. To date no ophthalmic optician student has ever had a chance of access to a hospital. It must be clear to all that in the eye departments of both teaching and general hospitals are to be found large numbers
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of abnormal eye cases in respect of which training should be given. Only if the optician has the opportunity of training by medical men will he finally be as effective to do his job as I know he wants to be. I realise that hospitals are fully occupied with the large volume of work which falls to them and the teaching duties necessary in respect of the medical profession, but I feel that in the Report the close co-operation which was achieved in the Committee by the doctors and opticians and the great co-operation there was generally in that two and a half years of work between the two who had been rivals augurs well for the future, and I hope we may see the spirit that was present then and which I know has continued to be present, go on and provide the opportunity for continued co-operation in the interests of the public.
The ethical standards of the profession in general were the subject of some comment in the Report. Obviously, the only ethical standard possible is that imposed in a voluntary way by the profession upon members of its own organisations, through the possession of diplomas. While it is true you cannot create ethics by legislation, it is also true that unless an ethical standard is backed in some way by powers there is little hope that it will be completely effective. Until it is possible for a General Optical Council to insist upon the standard of ethical conduct which I am glad to say is true now of the optical profession, we cannot hope to get the complete professional standards we desire. I urge upon Her Majesty's Government that the General Optical Council, when, as I hope, it is set up, shall be given the fullest possible disciplinary powers and the fullest possible opportunity of dealing with ethical standards for the guidance and, if necessary, the control of those inside this profession Advertising, about which I will not detain your Lordships in detail, was one of the several matters which I know have worried opticians over a long period of time. I do not think it can be right that ophthalmic optics should be practised as a 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. part of one's job by a working jeweller, watchmaker or radio technician; and while I admit that Parliament in its wisdom has (I think we should all consider rightly) been chary of taking away the livelihood of people at present performing certain functions, one of the early tasks of the

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General Optical Council ought to be to review the position for the future and to see that the profession is made one which is completely professional. It might well base itself in its general and ethical standards on the excellent standards which the medical profession has drawn up for itself and enforced so emphatically over a long period of time.
I think a good deal of the work of the General Optical Council will have to base itself, so far as its professional and standards go, on systems which the General Medical Council have evolved. I can think of nothing better than some of the advice given by way of evidence by the G.M.C., in co-operation with the doctors, dealing, for instance, with methods of inspection and the way in which, by the giving of advice and follow-up, they are able, without sanctions, although the ultimate power is there, to secure all the standards they desire. I should be the last to suggest that academic institutions should have that complete freedom which they normally like to possess taken away from them by legislation of this kind; but powers of inspection and at least of guidance and advice for the establishment of standards must be one of the least of the things that is given.
I think, however, that there stands out clearly to anyone who cares to look for himself one glaring scandal with regard to eye practice—I refer to the ability of members of the public (this is a matter to which my noble friend, Lord Milner, has already referred) to go into a chain store establishment and select glasses for themselves. During the course of this Committee's work, I took the opportunity of going into two or three of the branches of a well-known firm of chain store proprietors, in order to watch the sale of spectacles. I observed ladies going up to the counter, taking up a sheet of type, and then trying on various glasses until they found that the particular type at which they were looking could be read satisfactorily; and then they would order a pair of glasses by the number of that type. Noble Lords who, like myself, are accustomed—or apprised, as we are by the newspapers, and by inference, if not by experience—to the time a lady takes to choose a hat, may be interested to know that, according to my observation, it takes about one-hundredth part of that time for
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a lady to choose a pair of spectacles which may ruin her eyesight for ever.
The plain truth is that examining bodies and organisations of opticians have carried these matters, so far as I can judge, as far as they can carry them by years of voluntary effort. There has been half a century of work in building up standards, trying to control ethics, trying to see that the public interest is guided and guarded by them. Voluntarily, they have gone as far as they can in this way, and unless the ultimate control of a council, with the benefit of sanctions if necessary, is made available, they cannot go further. I should not be so foolish as to suggest to the noble Viscount who is going to reply to this debate on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that he will be able to tell us now that, when legislation is advanced—as I most earnestly hope it will be—every single recommendation in the Report will be adopted, and on the lines suggested. Indeed, as I understand it (the noble Viscount and I know each other well enough for me to say this), if the Chairman of any Committee of Inquiry sees action taken while he is still alive, on anything that is in his Committee's Report, instead of knowing that it is safely interred in a Whitehall pigeonhole, he is fortunate. He will be well satisfied, at least, to be assured that there is to be any legislation at all.
I believe that I shall be able, whilst still young, hale and hearty, to see the Government put into operation the main grounds of this Report by way of legislation. I am encouraged in that belief by the unanimity of the members of the Committee, to which reference has been made, and by the way in which divergent interests have managed to get together to sign this Report and to try to help the public interest. I am further encouraged by my knowledge of the great interest which the Minister showed in the Report and by my further knowledge of the way in which the Civil Service—the "back room boys," who have been responsible for this kind of thing—have taken such a lively, intelligent and knowledgeable interest in the job. They have done their best to see that every single relevant factor has been put before all concerned. I am sure that the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, when he comes to reply for Her Majesty's Government, will be as anxious as I am to tell the members of the Committee—who I am glad to know

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have been afforded the opportunity of being present in our Galleries this afternoon—how much we owe to them, and how warmly we thank them for the job which they did. It was a job which meant for them "all kicks and no ha'pence." It was a job which took up a great deal of time, and I think the finest tribute they could have, and the best thanks which the noble Viscount could give to them, would be to pass to them the knowledge that not only will legislation on this matter be forthcoming but that it will be forthcoming at an early date.
3.36 p.m.
LORD CHARNWOOD: My Lords, I venture to address your Lordships on this topic because I am myself an optician, though I practise as my noble friend on the other side of the Chamber would wish: I do not sell spectacles, I only test eyes. I also wish to urge Her Majesty's Government to bring in a Bill on the lines of the Report. I read the Report when it came out, and I have read it again since, and I agree with every word of it. I think it offers the best and the most just compromise which can be obtained. It was no small achievement to bring in a unanimous Report, and this one represents the highest common denominator of the general and professional views of those concerned. Any representations made subsequently to the Ministry strike me as being backstairs lobbying. The suggested Bill would be for the protection of the public.
It is of the false security of an inadequate eye examination that I wish to speak. I am an examiner for one of the qualifying bodies. What is the use of "ploughing" someone if he does not come up for re-examination but "gets in through a back door"? Those bodies which let people in through back doors do not let in many, but they should not let in any at all. It is true that they have very small membership but, nevertheless, in my view they keep this back door still open. Personally, I do not so much mind the trade in spectacles which is done by chain stores. A man cannot, in fact, hurt his eyes by wearing the wrong spectacles—certainly not by wearing the wrong reading spectacles—when he is in middle life. In the case of children it is different: a squint can be
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started by fitting a child with the wrong spectacles. All the harm that one of your Lordships could do to himself by buying spectacles at a chain store would be to give himself a headache. And that would "larn him," so that he would, I should hope, go off and have an eye examination by a qualified practitioner. If he did not give himself a headache he might, in consequence of not having had an examination, be left in ignorance of something which it would be well for him to know. The eye is the one place where you can inspect blood vessels in working order. The first sign of high blood pressure is to be found in the eye.
I would welcome a prohibitive Act, but in this connection I would rather that it should be directed at sun spectacles. These are much more likely than reading spectacles to cause harm. Sun spectacles, when they are put on to children, are very habit-forming, and they retard the development of the eye. I feel very strongly, with the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, that dispensing and prescribing should be wholly divorced. I am always very glad when my own prescriptions go to a dispenser, and not to an ophthalmic optician. I do not consider that there is anything in the contention that the man who prescribes should also dispense. If there is anything important to be attended to in the dispensing it is up to the prescriber to write it on the prescription. As Lord Crook says, the present ill-qualified man must remain. Parliament will not take his livelihood away from him. But where eye-testing is only a sideline—that is in cases where the people concerned have two "rackets"—I think it would be right to insist upon a choice being made of one or the other. Anyway, there are far more opticians than the nation needs, and that condition leads only to drumming up trade, such as the recent agitation for the compulsory testing of the vision of motorists, which the trade journals favour. That sort of thing would lead to a nation of spectacle-wearers, as there is across the Atlantic. I spend my time telling people to throw their "specs" away.
My noble friend Lord Amulree touched on orthoptics. Actually, orthoptics are exercises to straighten squints in children. They also relieve headaches in adults, but that is a minor consideration. Orthoptics may, or may not, be coupled with the prescription of spectacles. And may I

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mention to my noble friend that modern orthoptics were introduced into this country by my profession and not by his? I urge a strong Bill and urge that there should be three registers, particularly the third, that of those who prescribe and do not dispense. I also urge restrictions on multiple or chain opticians, especially those who sell cameras, barometers and "what have you." as well as testing eyes in their shops.
3.42 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Charnwood, for assuring us that when we next buy spectacles in a store we need expect nothing more than a headache as the result of wearing them. I feel that we owe a debt of gratitude to my noble friend Lord Crock for the work he did on this Committee, and for the excellent and clear Report that the Committee have placed before us. I had an opportunity of seeing some of my noble friend's tactful and efficient work on one of the most difficult Committees of the United Nations, the Fifth Committee—only a little less difficult than the Fourth—and I was full of admiration for the way in which he conducted the affairs of that Committee, so far as British interests were concerned, so that I am not surprised that he did so well on this Committee.
I have no knowledge whatsoever of optics or of opticians, but it happens that the President of the Association of Dispensing Opticians is a gentleman whom I know, and he has written to me and asked me to present to your Lordships the views of the Association. As the dispensing opticians are very much affected by the proposals in the Committee's Report, and will be by any proposals that the Government may make as a result of the Report, I think it only right that their views should be placed before your Lordships and, in particular, before the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton. The Association of Dispensing Opticians would like me to point out that paragraphs 66 and 69 of the Crook Report recommend that, subject to safeguards, the first dual-function register should be closed at some time in the future and that a General Optical Council, analogous to the General Medical Council,
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should have power to effect this closure. The Association agree with that proposal. They say they wish to see the high standard of dispensing which their members practise become general throughout the country. Dispensing and sight-testing are separate entities, each entailing a full-time operation, and the Association admit that in expanding the training and examination of ophthalmic opticians, dispensing has been neglected. They feel that it is contrary to the public interest that the professional view should be influenced by the knowledge that that view can provide a further source of profit. It is felt that the opportunity and temptation of this further profit should be removed from those who might be liable to fall into the temptation. Failure to make any provision for, or even reference to, any closure perpetuates the present situation and gives no incentive for improvement.
I understand that the Government are not prepared to give a General Optical Council, or the Privy Council, or, for that matter, Parliament, the power which the Crook Committee suggested to close the first register to new applicants. It is not suggested by the dispensing opticians that old applicants should be excluded from the register. They do not even propose to have three registers, as the Report suggests, but they feel that there should be a closure of the register so far as new applicants are concerned. Roughly, and possibly inadequately, these are the reasons why the Association of Dispensing Opticians believe that the Government should carry out the recommendations of the Crook Committee which are found in paragraphs 66 and 69 of their Report.
I confess my ignorance of this problem, but I feel that it is a strong point that we should remove the temptation of further profits in the case of people undertaking sight testing. If the noble Lord, Lord Charnwood, is to be believed, most people would be better off without glasses altogether. To give people who are going to test sight the possibility of making profit from the provision of glasses appears to be running not only against common sense, but also against the advice given to your Lordships by the noble Lord, Lord Charnwood. These are all the observations that I have to make in this matter. I trust that the

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noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, will take into account the views of the Association of Dispensing Opticians.
3.48 p.m.
LORD KENSWOOD: My Lords, I feel certain that those who, like myself, have for a good many years taken an active interest in sight saving and the prevention of blindness, must welcome this Report. It is an excellent Report and we should all be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and his colleagues, and to all those witnesses and assessors, who have helped to make public certain evils in our system. I must say that, although welcome, the Report seems to indicate that a great deal more research work and negotiation will have to go on. We find in Paragraph 108, on Page 27, the statement that there are far too few ophthalmologists to cope with the patients who should go to them for eye inspection. That means that opticians will have to go on for a good many years—do not let us blink at it and use other names—diagnosing and prescribing treatment. I want to know where prescription and observation begin and end, and where treatment begins. I speak from personal experience, and I know that frequently glasses are prescribed, even by ophthalmologists, not merely for correction, but as treatment to satisfy some further end. Certain opticians will do that, and I believe that means diagnosis. It means that you recognise a certain eye defect which you want to improve.
The noble Lord, Lord Charnwood—he will correct me if I have misunderstood him—has upheld the ability of opticians to test eyes and prescribe glasses. That does not seem to me to be in accord with paragraph 117, on page 28 of the Report, where it says that opticians have not had sufficient clinical training, and have not had sufficient advice and lectures from ophthalmologists to fit them for diagnosis. What happens, in general, is this. You find that you cannot see so well as you think you ought to be able to do. You therefore go to an optician, or you go to a chain store and pick up some glasses. I believe there must be millions of people wearing glasses which they have procured from hawkers or from chain stores. I remember the late Lord Passfield saying that he bought his glasses from a hawker; that he was always satisfied
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with them, and never had to change them. It is something like a lottery: he picked on some glasses, and was lucky; and I believe many people have done the same thing and have still retained sufficient vision to help them in their trade or profession. But that is not good enough. What an examination of the eyes should reveal is something which probably a correction of refraction cannot reveal.
I do not know much about ophthalmology—in fact, my knowledge is nil—but Professor Sorsby's recent report shows that there is among the people of this country a great deal of glaucoma. That is a complaint which comes on in middle life, at the same time that your refraction changes, and it need not exist if attended to early. You go to an optician, he examines your eyes and gives you a pair of glasses which suit you and you think that your trouble is over. You do not necessarily get headaches, because if he is a skilled optician he will give you glasses with the proper correction. But what he does not see, possibly, is that there is incipient glaucoma; and unless that is treated at once, you go blind. There are no two ways about it. I feel that unless opticians can get far more training than it is possible to give them, they should not be allowed to diagnose or even to act without a prescription by an ophthalmologist. I know that is the counsel of perfection, and it cannot be implemented to-day because there are simply not enough ophthalmologists to do the examinations.
I know that I shall come in for criticism, but I do not mind that. I can quote my own case. A good many years ago, when my sight began to trouble me, I went to several of the world-famous ophthalmologists, one in London and one in Vienna. None of them noticed anything wrong with my sight, other than a certain degree of myopia, which they corrected. That was that. Three years later I was not satisfied with my sight, which got so bad that I could no longer read, and I went to two other famous ophthalmologists. They said that it was too late and they could no longer do anything for me, but that had I come earlier they could have saved my sight. Mine is not an isolated case. You cannot argue from the particular to the general.

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I believe there must be thousands of cases similar to mine. If it is so difficult for an experienced ophthalmologist to diagnose an ailment, how much more difficult is it for an optician, who has had neither the training nor the experience?
With regard to clinical experience, I believe that patients in a hospital get a good deal of worry from the number of students who look at them and mess them around. I apologise for this statement but I feel strongly about it; and I have had three years as chairman of hospitals. After all, it is not only the students who matter; it is the patient who matters. Here in this Report we are envisaging the possibility of opticians gaining more experience by being sent into eye hospitals and being allowed to examine the patients. That may be a pis aller, but certainly it is not an ideal. The ideal we have to seek for is a sufficient number of well-trained and qualified ophthalmologists. I certainly feel it is criminal to allow hawkers or chain stores to sell glasses, and that should be stopped once.
My last point is this. If we give a special position to opticians, to a particular profession, surely, the public are also entitled to be protected against any possibility of monopoly or trust on the part of those opticians. I do not want to say anything personal about opticians as such—I think they are an honourable class of men and women, doing their best and performing a great service to the public—but it is just possible that there may be a movement towards taking advantage of their situation and getting higher prices. I know what the price of spectacles was before 1914; I know that the price of spectacles to-day is out of all proportion to the rise in the cost of living and the rise of wages. It may well be that this rise is well justified, but it does make me wonder whether we ought not to safeguard people against anybody exploiting their privileged position to the disadvantage of the public. I hope that as much as possible of this Report will be implemented by Her Majesty's Government as soon as possible. I am fully aware, as I mentioned earlier, that the Report bristles with difficulties; that a great many different points of view will have to be straightened out; and, above all, that something will have to be done to see that the service, after removing
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hawkers and chain stores, will be adequate to supply the needs of the people who have defective vision.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.59 p.m.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, it might be convenient if I, with your Lordships' permission, were now to interrupt the debate to make a statement on Business. Owing to the number of Amendments which have been set down for the Committee stage of the Landlord and Tenant. Bill to-morrow, Thursday, it has been arranged, through the usual channels—and we hope it will be with your Lordships' general consent—that there shall be an adjournment for dinner from 7 o'clock until 8.30, when the Committee stage will be resumed.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware whether we are to have a second day for the Committee stage of that Bill? We have asked for a second day, I believe.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, so far as I am aware at the moment, one day has been arranged with all the Parties.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I did not understand that there was any arrangement between all Parties. It is very late to inform us that we may be here until some unknown time after dinner tomorrow, if necessary. Noble Lords on this side, as well as noble Lords opposite, are quite prepared to sit until late at night, but is it really necessary? Is it not better to have two days, so that we can complete our work in the proper manner, in ordinary hours, on this important Bill? This is a very important Bill which will affect millions of people throughout the years, and I do not see why we should rush it through in one day.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: So far as I am aware, it was arranged through the usual channels that one day should be given on the programme, as agreed at that time. It was not known that there would be forty-seven Amendments on the Marshalled List. Of course the noble Lord will recall that in the days when noble Lords opposite sat on this side of the House we often sat very late indeed on some of their Bills.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am in a difficult position about this matter, because I have not had a note from my noble and learned Leader about any conversations through the usual channels. That may be the fault of our side. I only wish to protect the position of noble Lords who are engaged on the further stages of this Bill. We were rather concerned that such an important Bill should be discussed in Committee for the first time as other than the first Order of the Day. It was only after considerable heartburning that we consented to have some of the Amendments which would have to be considered on this Bill dealt with as a later Order on the first day. For the noble Earl to come along now, after we have consented to take some time upon that day, and suggest that we should sit after dinner, when many Members of the House have made pressing engagements for that evening, is quite unreasonable. We should be quite willing to start the Committee stage of the Bill after the first Order had been disposed of and carry on until a reasonable hour, but not thereafter.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I think it will be remembered that the reason why this Committee stage appears as second Order on the Paper is entirely due to our efforts to meet noble Lords opposite. The Second Reading of the other Bill was postponed after arrangements had been made. I am quite certain of my facts there. This suggestion was put forward to all noble Lords, and no difficulty has been raised until now. It is impossible to judge how lone one of these Committee stages is likely to take until the number of Amendments can be seen on the Marshalled List; and as noble Lords know, they come very late in the day.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: All I am saying is this—I am hampered because I have not had an opportunity of speaking to my noble Leader about this. We are quite ready to start consideration of the Amendments to-morrow. We understand that that is necessary because we had to postpone the debate on the Civil Defence (Armed Forces) Bill. We feel, however, that we cannot say that we will sit to any hour of the night to-morrow. Perhaps in the course of this evening we can have a
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continuation of conversations through the usual channels.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I would say this to the noble Viscount. I personally saw the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who is dealing with this Bill for the Opposition, and he said quite definitely that he would prefer this arrangement. I know that it is not quite so convenient to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. Also, I have conferred with the noble Lord the Chief Whip through the usual channels, and presumably the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has passed it on to his Party.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: The difficulty may have arisen from this side, as I said before. We certainly had no notice that an announcement to that effect was to be made this afternoon.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: It is the usual practice, when the Whips have agreed something—as this was agreed with the noble Lords, Lord Shepherd and and Lord Silkin—that one of the Ministers or one of the Whips makes a formal announcement about the agreement made. Since I have been in the House, which is some years now, that has always been the common practice, and I am sorry if the noble Viscount was not informed.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I have not heard a word about it, and it will be extremely awkward for me.

REGISTRATION OF OPTICIANS
4.5 p.m.
Debate resumed.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, we now come back to the discussion introduced by my noble friend Lord Milner of Leeds. We are all grateful to him for having given us the opportunity of discussing the Report which my noble friend behind me will not mind my calling the Crook Report. We all share a feeling of thankfulness to the noble Chairman of that Committee, and we are pleased to see the large amount of unanimity which has been achieved in the presentation of the Report. For my part, I do not change very much in the views I have held for the last thirty years: that whilst I am entirely in favour of getting the finest

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education and academic training possible, and whilst I am in favour of improving in the highest degree the professional services to the general users of such services, I have an inherent objection, and have had for years, to what I call the setting up of closed corporations. I always remember the words of Robert Waldo Emerson, who said:
"Whoso would be a man, must be a Nonconformist."
In many of these things for setting up closed corporations I am very much of the Nonconformist. However, the general idea of raising the standards is excellent.
No one could listen without being moved by the last speech we heard, from my noble friend, Lord Kenswood, whose academic experience and whose own magnificent triumph over his physical difficulties have always brought him the highest respect in this House. His personal experience of the tragedy of not receiving the right advice or treatment required in time is, of course, an exceedingly powerful factor to be brought to bear upon those who are forming opinions on the Report before us to-day. Having said that, I would say that in my working lifetime I have always spoken for one of those bodies which are referred to in a considerable section of the Report as corporate bodies—namely, companies or societies incorporated for ordinary business purposes. Judging from this Report, it is apparently considered undesirable, in view of certain precedents which have been created, that any new approval should be given to the registration of bodies carrying out optical and dispensing work unless they have a majority of qualified opticians or ophthalmic people upon their board of directors.
I think that is a most amazing situation. It is true that it has been tried in certain other respects. It was brought into effect under the control of the Dental Board. But, of course, anybody who knows how that has been worked, knows that you can drive a coach and six through it at any time. You set up a little separate organisation and put three dentists or three opticians on it, and then they carry on the work with the corporate bodies. That really is nonsense from the ordinary business point of view. But when we come to the position, say, of a co-operative society—now representing about 11 million shareholding
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members in the country—who have their own proper standards and constitutional rules for the election of their management, it is, in my view, quite improper to say that they cannot carry on with their running of efficient optical advice, prescription and treatment because the democratically-elected members of the board are not all, or in a majority, qualified people.
It reminds me of some of the attacks that are made from time to time upon trade unions and trade union practices. I must say, however, that in my experience of what goes on, stage by stage, these exclusive professional bodies are the most powerful and independent trade unions in the whole country. It is so with the medical profession, it is so with the legal profession; it is so now in the dental profession—and, of course, the opticians want to be the same. There is a whole list of other people who are coming on. Even the undertakers, who dispose of our remains at the end of our lives, are now seeking incorporation, with special qualifications, and the like, coming into consideration. I suppose the next will be the butchers and the slaughterers of animals for our food—
LORD SILKIN: And hairdressers.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My noble friend reminds me that we shall soon have hairdressers applying for registration in the same kind of way. It is an extraordinary situation. Whilst there are many things in this Report, especially with regard to education and training, which I think are admirable, I object strongly to the kind of provision I have mentioned being foreshadowed in the Report. When the Government come to make their decision, I am sure that the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton, for example, who has far greater experience in one branch of corporate work than I have, will not be short of advice from the people concerned. He needs to go only to Selfridge's, to John Barker's, or to any of those people to see for himself what a corporate body can do in the way of providing optical treatment and similar services. I would oppose most strongly the idea that it is only the individual optician who can give the best and the highest professional service. I say that in many of the cases the services provided by the corporate

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bodies are not only as good as, but better than, and are better furnished and provided than, those of the individual, because of the additional capital behind the concern.
If one goes to John Barker's, Selfridge's or to the Leeds Co-operative Society—I could name many others—and has a look at the provision made for the actual professional service rendered, there can be no possible case, when this Report comes to be implemented, for saying that it is fundamental that there must be a majority of professionally qualified opticians upon the board of directors. I hope we are not going to perpetrate in legislation any more such nonsense as that. It is certainly something which could never he justified in the case of great democratic bodies like the cooperative societies, who claim the right to elect their own people. They have no reason to cheat themselves, because they are setting up a service for themselves, both from the point of view of personal health and from the point of view of personal economy. I hope due notice will be taken of that point of view.
There is one other matter which has been referred to this afternoon and which interests me very much: that is, the proposed separation of optical treatment, keeping it apart from other business. Why should it be? If there is a man practising in one of the scattered districts of Northern Scotland, who is a qualified optician and who also keeps an establishment, not only for selling his spectacles but also for selling cameras or doing repairs to lenses in cameras, as he would repair lenses in a pair of spectacles, why should he not carry on thus? I know well that in many districts, if it were not for the movement with which I am concerned, with its organisation and its men, it would be almost impossible to get the service to outlying places. Proper equipment and proper provisions are taken into all those places.
LORD CROOK: I am wondering whether the noble Viscount would be perfectly satisfied at receiving medical treatment from a tobacconist who spent 85 per cent. of his time selling tobacco.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I think that such an interruption from my noble friend is irrelevant.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Oh!
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: It is very irrelevant. I said that if a man is a properly qualified optician or ophthalmic adviser, why should he not also deal in photography if he wishes to? I thought we had a little more freedom in this country than that. A few people get together and say: "No, you keep outside, because you are going to do some other business as well as that of an optician.
'We are God's chosen few
All others will be damned.
There is no room in heaven for you
We can't have heaven crammed.'"
We know that attitude of mind very well indeed. I have much more sympathy with the view of my noble friend Lord Kenswood, about the need for training more qualified people to deal powerfully with the situation. I hope, however, that it will not be said that we shall have to wait until every one of the additional entrants we want in the profession has had a kind of university career or a high level career in the academic sphere. I have seen in the engineering profession, in the accountancy profession and in other professions, some of which have become corporations, the most remarkable results obtained from giving freedom of opportunity to all classes of the community, including the working classes, provided they get their technical qualifications on top of their practical work and experience, even if they have to do it through evening classes and the like.
When I listened to the various speeches that have been made this afternoon, I felt a little anxious lest we should be paying far too much attention to purely paper academic qualifications and not giving the proper opportunity to the boy or girl who goes into the business at an early age, perhaps as soon as he has obtained his General Certificate of Education. He should then be able to get the beginning of his practical training and go on for his higher educational training in the technical sense. I hope we shall not pay too much attention to purely academic qualifications, because I want to see more people technically qualified on the lines that my noble friend who last spoke mentioned this afternoon.
I do not think I need take up more of your Lordships' time. I shall, if necessary,

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reserve detailed criticism of some of the proposals for the occasion when they are included in a Bill and submitted to Parliament. But, generally speaking, I would say I am in favour of anything which comes out of the Report and which will lead to a higher standard of qualification and of commercial practice. But I will oppose, and oppose rigidly, any proposal which seeks to set up a closed corporation and unreasonably refuses proper admission to those who are qualified for the service of the public.
4.20 p.m.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT WOOLTON): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland, whose views I am representing this afternoon, wish me to assure your Lordships, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, how greatly they appreciate the fact that this debate has taken place. I have listened to it, with just a modicum of support from this side of the House, with very great pleasure. It has been one of the characteristic debates in your Lordships' House. I know of no subject on which anyone dare embark in this House without expecting to find expert knowledge confronting him. The noble Lord, Lord Charnwood, gave us quite exceptional expert knowledge, and we were all particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, who assured us that his expert knowledge was nil; it was the one point on which the noble Lord did not carry any conviction with the House. I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough for having livened up the debate. I did not understand why it was that none of the medical profession got up and dealt with him. They seemed, I thought, to be singularly calm under the lash that he used on them, but probably they too are waiting for a subsequent opportunity.
We are all, in this House and in the Government, most grateful to the noble Lord. Lord Crook, whose Committee has produced this valuable Report. He embarked upon the Chairmanship of a Committee composed of representatives of people who, historically, were warring factions; and by his own skill and tact as a Chairman he has produced unanimity. As a City Company man I was most interested in Lord Milner of Leeds'
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rush back to the "good old days" of Charles I, when, to a high degree, we had control, inspection and training in many of our industries, and no general councils other than the City Company, were required for dealing with offenders. And if there was any failure, or any rude behaviour of the apprentices to their masters, ethical standards were maintained quite definitely, quickly and rigorously—the punishment being that the apprentice was stripped to the waist and duly chastised. I gather that the noble Lord would not suggest that there should be an immediate revival of that particular type of treatment in order to deal with this particular trade or profession.
I thought the noble Lord gave us a most interesting account of the various Committees that have considered this subject. It rather alarms me sometimes to hear of the long periods for which Committees, consisting of all sorts of people, sit on these problems, produce Reports; then, when they have been duly considered and forgotten, another Committee is appointed, with the advanced knowledge of the times, to go through the same process. I think the noble Lord, Lord Crook, looking well, as I am glad to see he does, may have reasonable hopes for the views that he expressed—that perhaps in his lifetime there may be some form of legislation as a result of the work that he has done. When the Committee were appointed, thereby reflecting the views of the Government of the day, they embarked on their task with terms of reference which assumed that there would be registration. That was the basis on which they proceeded to work and, so far as I can see, all the evidence that they collected supported that view.
May I repeat two things which the noble Lord said? One was to express the gratitude of the Government of the day, whichever day it may be and whichever Government it may be, to the people who are good enough to give up their time and skill to serve on committees of this nature. The present Government are most grateful to the members of this Committee who had the privilege of serving under the noble Lord, and I should like to join in the testimony that has been paid to them. The other thing that I liked so much about what the noble Lord said was the tribute

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that he paid to the profession, or trade (whatever it may be), at the present time. We really do not get any further by assuming that there are a large number of rapscallions engaged in widespead trade in this country, and I was glad to hear the noble Lord say what he did. If there are some who require just a little guidance and correction, then that is the proper business of legislation. But what this Report is trying to do, and what I think probably those engaged in it to the extent of some 95 or more per cent. want, is that this trade shall become a profession, with ethical standards of conduct, with a Council to govern it—a Council with quite clear definitions of its functions and having disciplinary powers.
Reverting, to what the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, said, the Committee propose that the ophthalmic opticians who test sight and dispense glasses should be registered, but that subsequently the register should be closed. Maybe. But this Council is going to have considerable powers. We, as a legislative assembly have to be careful about this matter. The purpose of such a Council—as indeed the purpose of any professional register—must be to protect the public. It is not primarily, but only incidentally, for the purpose of enhancing the status of a number of people, however desirable it may be that that status should be enhanced; and Parliament has always been disinclined to intefere with those already earning their living in any trade or profession, except in so far as it may be necessary to do so in the interests of the public. It may therefore be expected, that in any proposal brought forward there would be the minimum of disturbance to the present people in the method of carrying out optical work.
I was interested in, and felt myself very much in accord with, the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Kenswood, about treatment; but matters in regard to which technical and professional considerations arise are normally left to be settled by a professional governing body, although they are always subject (I think this is the provision that the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough had in mind) to the subsequent control of some body such as the Privy Council. On the stalwart plea of the noble Viscount, Lord
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Alexander of Hillsborough, for the corporate bodies, I wonder if I may be sufficiently personal to say that he and I have had much the same experience in our lives, so perhaps your Lordships will understand that we have a considerable amount of respect for the jobs that we have done in the past and are not, therefore, inclined to condemn corporate bodies. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Crook, would not want to condemn corporate bodies in general.
The noble Lord, Lord Crook, has pointed in his Report to a danger. It is for those who are concerned with subsequent action to take those views into account, and to see what should be done. I was obliged to the noble Lord for saying, modestly, that he did not expect us to agree with everything that the Report says. Very rarely does it happen that a Government finds itself able to put into legislation everything that a Report says; indeed, it is so often so much easier to define noble and general principles than it is to define the precise terms of legislation. But I can assure the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, that the Government are taking the greatest interest in this subject.
My right honourable friend the Minister of Health, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Crook, knows, has already had considerable conversations, and they are still proceeding. Perhaps (if I may use the vernacular) when they "get down to brass tacks" they find there has not always been quite so much unanimity as there was in the noble Lord's Report. But they are arriving now, I am told, at a very good understanding. The interested bodies are meeting the Ministers with harmony, and I hope that I shall satisfy your Lordships, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, when I say that the Government certainly have legislation in mind. I will not say when, for no other reason than that legislation of this nature has, of course, to find its place, as noble Lords opposite know so well, in the legislative programme of the Government. But I can assure your Lordships' House of the interest that those in the Government have in this subject and of our general sympathy for it; and, as I have said, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, for having introduced this debate.
4.34 p.m.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: My Lords, I am grateful to all those noble Lords who have taken part in this very useful debate for the generous support they have given to the Motion which I had the honour to submit. I hardly know what to say to my noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, on his main point regarding co-operative societies and similar bodies, but it seems to me that that is rather a matter of detail. He has himself suggested one very obvious solution—to a lawyer, at any rate—and I have no doubt that there are numerous other solutions which could be suggested I feel confident that that matter would receive attention in any legislation that any Government thought fit to bring forward. I was a little sorry to hear his remarks about corporate bodies, which include one for lawyers. He appeared to think that such bodies as the Law Society and the General Medical Council, and others, were formed for the protection of members of those bodies. That is not so at all. They, like the proposed Optical Council, are formed for the protection of the consumer, which is much more important. My noble friend, with whom I am on the best terms, will, I hope, bear that in mind.
VISCOUNT WOOLTON: Sometimes it works both ways.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: Sometimes it works both ways. I am greatly obliged to the noble Viscount, Lord Woolton. This Report, I would remind the noble Viscount, has lain on the Table since April, 1952. It is now July, 1954, and having regard to what I hope may be its non-controversial character, I am certain that all noble Lords in this House and, I imagine, a great majority of the Members of another place would be grateful if such a measure as this, which would be useful and not troublesome, could be given attention at a very early date. I thank your Lordships for the reception you have given me, and beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

AIR NAVIGATION (SEVENTH AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1954
4.37 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT LORD TEVIOT rose to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Air Navigation (Seventh Amendment) Order, 1954, dated and laid before the House on the 3rd of June, 1954, be annulled. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I propose to be very short, in view of the serious ordeal which apparently this House is to go through to-morrow, and I do not want to keep your Lordships here late to-night. I trust that those noble Lords who will, I hope, support my plea will follow my example. I am very perturbed indeed about the far-reaching effect of this Order. My reason for seeking its annulment is that it appears to me a deliberate curtailment of the right of the citizen. There appears to be now no protection against any of the activities carried on by any State Department or any aircraft manufacturer: they can do exactly what they like, ignoring the interests of the citizen. There is no power now to sue in any court or make an appeal to any authority against what has become a great tragedy in the lives of a considerable number of people. The Common Law which existed, and I hope will still exist in the future, that no person or organisation, or the State, can damage the property or interests of any citizen without compensation, seems now to have become a "washout."
On June 29, my noble friend Lord Selkirk, in reply to a Question by the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, made one or two rather significant statements and admissions; and I propose, with your Lordships' permission, to read one or two of them. He said (OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 188 (No. 85), col. 95):
"Her Majesty's Government are aware, and the manufacturers themselves are aware, that this inevitably causes some inconvenience to those in the immediate vicinity of airfields."
But then he also said (col. 97):
"I must ask noble Lords to bear in mind that there is a conflict here between individual right and national interest, and we cannot pretend there is not."
With regard to the second statement, it appears to me that the individual right to which the noble Earl referred has now become non-existent. Surely Her Majesty's Government do not intend to

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give aircraft manufacturers carte blanche to carry out any of their operations, with total disregard to the interests of the community. I cannot believe that such a thing can happen in this country, where the individual is supposed to be a free man with all the liberties that we expect as citizens.
It will be within your Lordships' recollection that both Lord Silkin—I am glad to see him here to-day, and I hope that he is going to say a few words—and myself, on April 7 of this year, referred to the precarious position of the interests of the citizen. The Times newspaper, in a leading article on this subject on June 5, referred to this matter, and concluded with a remark which I entirely endorse. It is quite short, and I will read it:
"If the right to sue is taken away, it should be replaced as a restraining influence by specific regulations laid down by the Ministry. Possibly such regulations could be made as part of an order under the 1949 Act. But in any case the general question of control of noise and vibration and the further crucial question of the control of the location of new manufacturers' airfields need the most careful examination."
The Times also said—and again I entirely agree:
"It is a serious matter, however, to exempt airfields from the ordinary restraints of common law, without substituting any other form of control. The exemption of airfields owned or licensed by the Government may possibly be justified on the ground that direct public control is already exercised. But this is not true of manufacturers' airfields."
I cannot see why the right to sue for damages should be taken away, although doubtless the Government are right to make sure that the aircraft manufacturers are not impeded by injunctions. I make the strongest possible appeal to Her Majesty's Government to think again on this most important question, with the idea of giving the ordinary individual some protection against the exploitation of property without the right to sue for damages. I have made the strongest case I can on the point that I feel is most important in regard to this matter, and there I am going to stop. I beg to move for Papers.
4.44 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I think that everyone will agree that the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, has certainly made out a very powerful case indeed, and one which the Government will be at
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some pains to answer. The Amendment Order, as he said, extends the power of the Minister to prescribe the conditions under which noise and vibration may be caused by aircraft which are operated, being manufactured, or used, by private manufacturers. There was a similar power previously with reference to Government aerodromes, but this Order now extends the power to cover aerodromes of private manufacturers—manufacturers who are operating their own aircraft on their own licensed aerodromes or on Government aerodromes. As Lord Teviot has said, this is a very important matter for the subject, for the prescribing of conditions by the Minister does, ipso facto, exclude the jurisdiction of the court. The citizen can no longer sue a manufacturer or anyone else who is making a noise on an aerodrome provided that the person making the noise is carrying out the work which he is doing in accordance with the conditions prescribed by the Minister.
So here we have the whole issue, as it were—the Department of the Minister against the subject, and the exclusion of the powers of the court—brought up into the sharpest and clearest perspective. Moreover, not only is the Minister the sole arbiter of the particular cases—as indeed he is in so many cases now—but he can prescribe over a wide field that there shall be no recourse whatsoever to the courts; that the subject shall have no power to object or complain of injury which he thinks is being done to him. I feel that in these circumstances it is obligatory upon the Government—indeed, it would be upon any Government—to make a very clear case indeed.
When the Question referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, was asked of the Government last week the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, who replied, said that the national interest is paramount. I feel certain that every one of us will agree that the national interest is paramount—there is no question of that. But to say that the national interest is paramount does not at all define the conditions under which these regulations are to be made. What most of us, I think, feel is that we do not want the Minister to act in cases where in fact the national interest is not involved—where there is a question merely of Departmental convenience, or where it is a question of ease

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of manufacture. It seems to me that to say that a manufacturer may make as much noise as he likes without anyone being able to complain, gives him such wide latitude that it is a very dangerous thesis altogether unless there is some sort of restriction by the Minister when he prescribes the conditions.
The problem of noise with which we are concerned is one of the great factors of our time, as we know only too well. Noise and the smell of fumes from buses and cars and the like are two of the great curses of modern times. Those of your Lordships who were brought up in the horse age know very well how much the human ear has had to get attuned to the variety of strident noises which impose themselves upon it at all hours of the day and, in many cases, during hours of the night as well. We have just been talking about the eye question and we have now come to the ear question. We are concerned as to whether this Order will affect the drive in which the Government and manufacturers are involved in trying to lessen noise.
In another place on June 28, in a statement made on behalf of the Government, there was set out at length measures which are being taken to reduce aircraft noise. The Government are having a special study made of the by-pass engine in relation to the noise problem. They are having a detailed analysis of the noise of a jet-engine, operated with various alternative types of nozzle, on an open-air test-bed. They are experimenting with the construction of a brick baffle wall at London Airport. They are obtaining competitive tenders for the design of two types of mobile ground mufflers. They are also having a series of tests made by the College of Aeronautics under contract from the Ministry of Supply. Four aircraft manufacturers are employing a firm of consulting engineers to advise them on the use of specially designed pens for muffling the sound of aircraft the engines of which have to undergo running tests on the ground.
I am sorry to say that on the whole of this vast research—or what should be vast research—into one of the great curses of our time, the Ministry of Supply are spending this year the estimated amount of only £100,000. This seems to me a fleabite in comparison with what ought to be spent on this important problem.
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Your Lordships will have noted no doubt from the answer of Mr. Sandys in another place that most of the research is going to take place on noise made by aircraft while in the air or "running up" on the ground. But I take it that this Order is concerned mainly with noise in the manufacture of aircraft, or noise of engines being tested in testing beds. If that is so—and if it is not, I stand corrected—I cannot understand why the knowledge that we already have with regard to the blanketing of noise is not used by manufacturers.
If the Minister will make a journey down to wildest Wales, he will find that at the beginning of the Rhondda Valley, at Treforest, the British Overseas Airways Corporation have a factory where they have testing beds. One can stand talking near there with ease while aircraft engines are being tested at full revolution. I have seen at Schipol Airport, in Holland, engines being tested right on the aerodrome, within a comparatively short distance of the restaurant and waiting salon, without any noise being noticeable at all. When I asked my Dutch hosts who had invented and installed these remarkable testing beds, from which noise was so well excluded, I was informed that they had bought them from Britain, and that it was a British firm which had invented and installed them. When there are firms in this country doing that, I cannot understand why manufacturers of aircraft engines cannot seek the aid of their colleagues who make these testing bed mufflers; why they cannot instal them on airports, instead of appealing to the Government for this amenity.
There is little else I have to say, except that I think we must have a clearer definition from the Government of what constitutes the national interest. We have recently had a great deal of objection to the noise of helicopters over London. Of course, no one can object to the objection, but it has been misplaced, because the helicopter is an important machine of the future, and we must test it. The whole purpose of the helicopter is to fly into the centres of towns. It is no good having helicopters flying from the fringes of our cities; from the point of view of civil aviation, a good deal of their purpose is lost if they do not fly into the centres of cities. It is important that

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we should test the helicopter, and if there is noise that is one of the matters that should be tested. Personally, I should be prepared to put up with the noise.
Finally, I would ask the Government for these assurances. First that in prescribing, as the Order says:
"the conditions under which noise and vibration may be caused by aircraft (including military aircraft) on Government aerodromes, licensed aerodromes or on aerodromes at which the manufacture, repair or maintenance of aircraft is carried out by persons carrying on business as manufacturers or repairers of aircraft,"
the Minister will ensure that the noise and vibration are, in fact, necessary in the national interest; secondly, that "national interest" is strictly defined; thirdly, that neither administrative convenience nor manufacturing ease is sufficient to constitute "national interest"; fourthly, that the local population have every opportunity of making representations before the conditions are prescribed; and fifthly and lastly, that from time to time the position will be reviewed in the case of every single aerodrome affected by the Order.
4.56 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, this is another of those cases which I think it is right that your Lordships should examine. It is a proposal by the Executive to exempt certain sections of the community from the normal processes of law, and to do so on the ground of national interest. I submit that it is particularly important when this exemption affects the well-being, comfort and indeed health of considerable numbers of our citizens. For a moment I should like to take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore—that of national interest. Of course, there can be no question in the mind of any noble Lord on any side of the House that the national interest must be paramount, if our nation is to be safe and lead in the air; but we must see whether the powers which the Minister asks for are really necessary in the national interest. This proposed Order covers the noise on the ground made by manufacturers of aircraft and repairers of aircraft on Government licensed aerodromes. I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, would differ from that.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I would say, on unlicensed aerodromes.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: But aerodromes must be licensed by the Ministry of Civil Aviation if aircraft are to be allowed to fly from them. It would be appalling if the definition of the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, were to be accepted. That would mean that anyone setting up an aircraft works in a perfectly unsuitable field would thereby get immunity for all the noise made. I think if the noble Lord reads the Order, he will find that it is on aerodromes licensed by the Government on which the repair and manufacture of aircraft take place.
LORD TEVIOT: It is in the Order.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I find it difficult to reconcile with the national interest the exemption from the processes of the law of a small aircraft-manufacturing company at a small aerodrome in Sussex, having no connection at all with the production of Service aircraft and engaged in the manufacture of small aircraft, or possibly doing what I would call jobbing repairs, if it makes a nuisance of itself. I believe that this Order is drawn too widely if it includes, as I understand it does, such concerns as I have described. I hope the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, will inform me of the grounds of national interest upon which the small light airplane manufacturer can claim this exemption from the normal processes of law.
My second point is this. If, in the national interest, a large section of aircraft manufacturers engaged in manufacture and repair must have exemption—and I do not dispute that they must have exemption, if it is really in the national interest—is it right that they should have this exemption without any safeguard to the aggrieved citizen that he can bring forward his complaint with an assurance that it will be properly dealt with? On the last occasion when your Lordships discussed this subject, the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, said that public opinion would sway in these matters, and that the Minister would bring pressure to bear on manufacturers. Those assurances are comfortable, but inadequate. I do not believe that this Order should go forward in its present form unless we first have an assurance from Her Majesty's

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Government that there is to be some machinery, beyond an assurance by the Minister, that safeguards the rights of the aggrieved citizen.
It is not for me to advise on machinery, but, in all humility, I will put forward one suggestion for consideration by the Government. My suggestion is based on an admission, that, in the vast majority of cases, the national interest must be paramount. The assurance that the citizen desires is that the manufacturer who is causing this nuisance to him is using all the modern resources for sound suppression and is spending all the money that could normally be expected to be spent in trying to get rid of the nuisance. Could not the Government set up a Committee of what I would term outside, disinterested experts, such Committee to have knowledge of what are the latest developments dealing with this problem of sound? Then, if and when the citizen is so aggrieved that he feels he is not being dealt with fairly, the matter could be referred by the Minister to this advisory Committee—I suggest only an advisory committee to the Minister, with no executive powers—whose function it would be to inquire whether everything possible had been done by the manufacturer in question. That Committee, if satisfied, with knowledge supplied by the Ministry of Transport and other Departments, could say to the Minister and the aggrieved person: "Yes, everything possible has been done": and then, in the national interest, the aggrieved person would have to accept that position.
If, on the other hand, the Committee were to say: "We feel that the manufacturer has not done everything he might do," then let that be made public, and let the aggrieved person and the Minister have knowledge of it. Then I, personally, would be content that public opinion would be such that the firm in question, and the Minister in question, would be forced to act. That is only one suggestion I make; there may be others. Unless we have a clearer definition of "national interest" in relation to these small civil aircraft firms, which I believe should not have this exemption, and unless we have some further assurance that there is a safeguard to the citizen who is forced to suffer because of the national interest, I would earnestly press the Government
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to suspend the pushing through of this Order to-day. I would ask them to take it back, and bring it forward again with the larger description of "national interest" I have asked for, and some undertaking that there will be machinery—advisory, if you like, but at any rate some form of machinery—which will safeguard the rights of the citizen who has to suffer in the national interest.
5.6 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I had not thought of taking part in this debate this afternoon, and I did not put my name down, partly because I have had a professional interest in this particular problem, in so far as I have acted for an individual who has had recourse to the courts. I have advised him, and he has been able to arrange his particular dispute to his satisfaction, and I hope also to the satisfaction of the aircraft manufacturer. However, as I have no particular interest in the matter to-day, from that point of view, there is no reason why I should not say a few words. I find myself this afternoon in the happy position of agreeing almost entirely with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye; I think it is almost a unique position, because I do not remember having agreed with him so cordially on any other matter that has ever come before this House.
It is a serious problem that we are facing this afternoon, and we must recognise that it is also a difficult problem. There is a serious conflict between the public interest and the rights of the individual. We all have to recognise that, in particular, the development of aircraft at the present time has to go forward; that it must not be capable of being interfered with by the action of an individual, and that an extension of the existing protection may, therefore, be necessary. It is an essential part of the production of aircraft that they should be tested, and there is no known method at present of testing them without making a certain amount of noise. In this small island of ours it is inevitable that this testing must interfere with the normal lives of individuals and the comfort and enjoyment of their premises. Therefore I believe the public interest would require that it should not be possible for an individual to stop the process of testing aircraft.

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This statutory instrument, however, goes much further than that. It is one thing to say that the individual must not stop the testing of aircraft, but it is quite another to say that he must not retain his rights to claim damages if he has suffered serious loss as a result of the action of an aircraft manufacturer. There are many people who have been literally ruined as a result of the activities of aircraft manufacturers, particularly in the testing of aircraft: people whose homes have been rendered valueless and unsaleable, whose livelihoods have been interfered with, and whose normal enjoyment of their homes has been rendered nugatory. Those people, if this instrument became effective, would have no remedy whatever.
At the present time they have the normal remedy of an application to the courts for an injunction, and for damages. As I have said, it would be reasonable to allow the Government to take away from the individual the right to obtain an injunction from the courts; that would be in the public interest. But is it reasonable for them to take away from the individual the right to damages if he has suffered? This is a serious constitutional point. In the normal course of events, any individual who suffers as a result of the action of somebody else is entitled to go to the courts and seek damages. Here we are taking away those rights, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye said, we are imposing upon the aircraft manufacturer no obligation to take the slightest precautions to prevent suffering of private persons. It would perhaps be reasonable if the individual had a right of action provided that he could satisfy the court that no reasonable steps had been taken; or, better still, if the manufacturer was under an obligation to satisfy the court that he had taken all reasonable steps. But there is nothing of that in this Order. It simply takes away, by one stroke, the rights and remedies which the individual has had throughout. As the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, rightly said, it goes much further than the manufacture of aircraft for purposes of defence: it applies to any manufacturer of aircraft in the country.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Or repairer.
LORD SILKIN: Or repairer. Is that really necessary in the public interest? Nobody in this House is suggesting that the repairs are not necessary, but is it necessary to go so far as to deprive the citizen of his rights at Common Law? Furthermore, this instrument takes away from the manufacturer and the repairer any inducement to take active steps to minimise noise or nuisance. He is given a complete indemnity. No action can be taken against him, so why should he take any steps? What is his particular concern to take steps, which may be costly, to minimise or reduce the amount of noise or nuisance?
I am in a dilemma in asking the Government to go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, goes in asking that this instrument be taken back, though I think it needs taking back for the purpose of serious amendment. If it were taken back—if I do not say it the noble Lord who is to reply will—what would happen? In the meantime, in view of the publicity which has been given to this matter, it would be open to anybody to go to the courts to seek an injunction. So far as I see it, as the law stands at present, there would be no answer to it. Nobody wants a situation of that sort. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, does not want anyone to be able to go to the court and stop the testing of aircraft engines. Therefore, the dilemma we are in is that for the Government merely to take the Order back is not the right solution. But if I myself and other noble Lords do not press that, it does not mean that we do not feel most strongly that this Order is inappropriate. It goes too far; it deprives individuals of their Common Law rights. So I beg the Government, if they do not take it back, to bring forward another Order at the earliest possible moment, limiting themselves to what is strictly necessary—that is, to aircraft manufacture and repairs which are specifically in the public interest—and providing the citizen with a right to get damages if he can make out his case: he always has to do that. If he does make out a case that he has suffered damage, and the manufacturer is not taking reasonable steps to minimise it, then the Order ought not to deprive him of the right to obtain damages.

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My own personal view, for what it is worth, is that this Order is ultra vires. I think it is going beyond the powers that are conferred upon the Minister under Sections 8 and 41 of the Civil Aviation Act, 1949. That is a legal point, and Her Majesty's Government can accept it or otherwise, as they please. I have given the matter careful thought, and that is my own opinion. I think the Government would be well advised to study this Order again and not lay them-selves open to the possibility of attack on the ground that this Order goes too far and is not sanctioned by the relevant sections of the Act. There is a remedy to this problem. It is possible to take steps to reduce noise and vibration. They are costly, but I submit that, in the aggregate, the cost of these steps would be considerably less than the loss, damage and suffering that is being caused at the present time throughout the country by the existing noise and vibration. It should not be entirely a matter of money. I hope, therefore, that the result of this discussion, for which we are greatly indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, will be that the Government will think again, and that we shall have an assurance that this statutory instrument will be modified in the direction that has been suggested in this debate.
5.18 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I think we must all have a great sympathy with the people on whose behalf my noble friend has raised this Prayer, because there is no doubt about it that in many ways they are and have been suffering great inconveniences. Noble Lords who spoke have suggested various alternatives to the Order for which they seek annulment, and I should like to mention one or two of those first of all. I am not a lawyer myself and, therefore, I cannot possibly pronounce on the legal practicability of giving the citizen the right to sue for damages and, at the same time, the inability to obtain an interim injunction. To a layman it does not sound right, but, coming from the lips of so eminent a lawyer as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I assume there must be some way of doing that.
The other thing which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested was that we should withdraw this Order and make a new one because, among other things, he thought this was ultra vires. I am not fitted to
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argue at this Dispatch Box whether any Order put forward by Her Majesty's Government is or is not ultra vires. It is certainly a matter which would have to be considered by a lawyer, and he would have to challenge them in some way in order to get that matter cleared up.
LORD SILKIN: To clear up this point, may I say that I have not the slightest intention of challenging the Order in the courts. I put this forward merely as a piece of friendly advice, but I have no interest in challenging it.
LORD HAWKE: I am glad to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, does not intend to challenge it. One cannot get away from the fact that we live in a jet age and that jet engines make a frightful noise, particularly when they are being tested on the ground, when the noise is likely to be more prolonged than when they are taking off for flying. I think the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, showed some slight misunderstanding here. When these engines are being tested at the works, they can be, and are, enclosed in sound-proof structures. It is when they are put into aircraft and have to be tested under flying conditions that the sound is emitted. It does not come from the works.
LORD OGMORE: I am not under any misapprehension at all, having visited many aircraft factories and aerodromes. What I meant was that the sustained noise which people complain of generally is more likely to come from an engine which is out of an aircraft and is being repaired, maintained or perhaps manufactured, than from an engine which is in an aircraft and is being run up or tried in that aircraft. In my short experience, if there was any major work to be done on an engine, the engine was generally taken out of the aircraft so as not to injure the frame. It can then, I suggest be put into some sort of machine or bed which is noise-proof.
LORD HAWKE: If it goes back to the works, there are the noise-proof beds there and at the major places where it stands to be repaired. The production of this noise is vital to our defence programme as well as to our export trade. The question is, to what extent can we reduce the noise that we cannot help creating? This particular problem is only one of many vexing problems which are at the moment in charge of my right

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honourable friend the Minister of Transport. It is certainly not the least of them. As noble Lords have said, it is one of the great problems that face us to-day. What was the situation before this Order was issued? There were in this country something like 270 active aerodromes, both Government and civil, and out of these there were twenty-two that were not licensed for passenger flying. All, except these twenty-two, were exempted from any law-suits in respect of noise and vibration, under the Civil Aviation Act, 1949, and its orders and regulations. The other twenty-two aerodromes are used by manufacturers for testing and the like, and I am assured that all twenty-two are being used by manufacturers who are producing aeroplanes definitely in the national interest.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Would the noble Lord include Redhill aerodrome, where there are adjacent to a residential area one or two small manufacturers engaged on civil aircraft only?
LORD HAWKE: Among my papers I have a list of all the twenty-two, and my recollection is that, quite definitely, Redhill is not in the list of twenty-two. Whether it could masquerade under another name or not, I do not know.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: But if this Order goes forward, the Red-hill civil aircraft manufacturers could make as much noise as they cared to and could get exemption from the law: is not that so?
LORD HAWKE: I understand, no.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: We must get this clear.
LORD HAWKE: It is not in the list of twenty-two aerodromes.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: May we get this clear, because I think your Lordships will agree it is important? There is at Redhill, let us say, a small aircraft manufacturing concern, a worthy civil aircraft manufacturer. If that Order goes forward, that small civil aircraft concern can get exemption under this Order.
LORD HAWKE: Redhill is not among this list of twenty-two. Redhill is already protected, and the manufacturer there can make noise without risk of being sued for damages.
LORD SILKIN: No, the noble Lord must be wrong. The new protection is a two-fold one: first, under present conditions there is no protection merely on the ground of testing. No protection at all is given. Secondly, it brings in a new lot of airfields. This Order provides a dual extension. If at Redhill they are engaged solely in testing aircraft, then at the moment they cannot be protected.
LORD HAWKE: I understand that at Redhill they are protected at this moment. If I prove to be wrong in my statement, I will certainly take any opportunity I can of correcting it. The airfield which has provided the immediate reason for this Order is at Dunsfold in Surrey, and is used by Hawkers to assemble, test and finalise the Hunter fighter. Recently, a local resident sued the firm on account of the noise they were causing and the case was settled out of court. Immediately, there came the possibility, if not the probability, that similar action would be taken by other people living near to this field or to any other field. The danger was not so much of damages (which incidentally would tend to fall on the taxpayer, as swelling the cost of the machines) but of an interim injunction which might paralyse a field and deliver a crippling blow at our defence programme and exports while the case was being decided.
I know that several noble Lords have suggested, as I have said before, that it should be possible to sue for damages without the possibility of obtaining an injunction, and I said at the time that it did not sound to me, as a layman, a very proper legal course, but I could not pronounce in this very real conflict between public interest and private rights. The Minister had to come down, and come down quickly, on the side of what he must conceive to be public interest. The Minister could have succeeded by turning those fields into either licensed aerodromes or Government aerodromes, in which case they would have obtained automatic protection, but in the one case this would have been rather an abuse of the system and, in the other case, it would have resulted in employing a body

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of quite unnecessary controllers to serve what in effect would have been a legal fiction. His alternative course was to make this Order, and in so doing he has brought the twenty-two unlicensed aerodromes into the same fold as the other 250 or so active ones. I submit that, in the circumstances, it was vitally necessary to take immediate action, and this Order was the best way of taking that action. He could not, in fact, have failed to take action to prevent the possible paralysation of our defence programme.
In doing this we have had to take away some of the rights of the subject, and it is important to consider what we have put in in place of those rights. My noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye produced the original suggestion that there should be some form of consultative commission—something on the lines that we have for the railways—whereby an aggrieved citizen could complain and make sure that the operators on the airfield were taking the maximum amount of precautions to stop the noise. My right honourable friend the Minister will undoubtedly be interested in that suggestion, which certainly has some farreaching and wide effects.
First of all, what we have put in the place of the rights taken away is that in the Order it is clear that the Minister may prescribe conditions under which noise and vibration may be caused. It would be possible for the Minister to meditate and cogitate and finally to prescribe such conditions, but it would be extraordinarily difficult to put anything on paper which is flexible enough not to paralyse the operations and, at the same time, is effective enough to provide relief. Every airfield varies in this matter, and the state of experimentation against noise is not really ripe for any precise regulations to be made. There is a danger of starting works which may turn out to be of the wrong sort. There are still doubts and disputes as to the best way of dealing with this noise. In fact, I have been told of a technical conference in the United States where one manufacturer said that he had the most wonderful answer to the whole of this problem, and another manufacturer said that it was not of the slightest use at all. So there are still doubts among technical people, and by producing regulations there would be a
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danger of freezing remedies into a shape which ultimately was found not to be the best remedy. Of course, any regulations would tend to freeze these remedies on those particular lines. For that reason the Minister has thought it best, in the first place, to rely on the co-operation of industry, knowing that a great deal of research, both on Government and on private account, is being carried on into this question of jet noise.
First of all, what is happening in the field of research? My right honourable friend the Minister of Supply, in reply to a Question in another place, circulated some information in Column 901 of the the OFFICIAL REPORT (Commons) of June 28, to some of the contents of which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, referred. I can summarise the most relevant points from the statement in the following words: research and experiments are being conducted, both privately and under Government auspices, into all aspects of jet engine noise. It is being tackled particularly on four fronts: first, the problem of the shape of the nozzle through which the air enters the engine, which is the thing that produces the shrill whine; secondly, various forms of muffler to damp the roar at the rear of the engine; thirdly, screens of various sorts to surround the aircraft while it is running on the ground; and fourthly, a special study of the by-pass engine which is likely to be less noisy than the conventional jet.
The latest information I have is that the Ministry of Supply have actually placed orders for four mufflers—two for single-engined aircraft and the others for multi-engined types. As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, the Ministry are going to spend £100,000. He rather derided that sum of money; but there is a large sum of money, the total unknown, which is being spent by firms, universities and research institutions, so it would be wrong to say that £100,000 is the sum total of what is being spent in trying to solve the problem. Perhaps the most hopeful line at the moment lies in the experiments which act on the air when it leaves the jet and provide something in the nature of a gigantic exhaust box. Of course, in addition to these scientific methods operators can do a great deal by taking the precaution to run jets in a place where, either because of geography

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or because of wind conditions, they are least likely to be offensive to the neighbouring inhabitants.
I spent yesterday morning at Dunsfold where the engines and fuselages of the Hunters are fitted together and then tested and assembled for delivery. I experienced the noise from twenty yards range upwards, and nobody attempts to deny that it is a tremendous noise. It appears to be most intense at a position which I can best describe as being that of third man and long leg if the nose of the engine is facing the bowler. But in a motor car quite close to it, with the windows up, the noise is appreciably reduced. The precautions which are being taken on that particular field are these. There are available for testing several sites which are used according to the prevailing wind, as far as possible to prevent the maximum noise from impinging on the houses round about; screens are used, and there is some natural muffling as well from rising ground and trees. Hawker Aircraft Limited have ordered, and hope to have ready before very long, a big structure in the shape of an acoustic pen into which the whole machine can be put, with a muffling chamber to take the exhaust at the end, and they hope that this will be effective. Similar and other steps are being taken at other manufacturers' airfields. All these things which are being done at the moment are, of course, not absolute remedies; they are in the nature of palliatives—some are better and some are worse, though we have hopes that the muffling chambers, when ready, will prove to be much better than palliatives.
I think we must realise that we live in an age of noise and, whether we like it or not, we are going to have to endure far more noise than we should have dreamt about a few years ago. One must remember that there are some extremely noisy operations in industry which the operatives have to endure for the whole of their working lives—weaving, boiler-making, shot blasting, riveting and steam hammering. These noises have been with us for generations. The difference to-day is that we can in no way escape from the noise of industry by retiring into the country, because aircraft are everywhere, overhead if not on the ground. Indeed, there are few places to-day which are
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immune from the popping of some form of internal combustion engine "down on the farm." It is a long time since I personally experienced perfect silence for any length of time in our countryside.
All this is the price we have to pay for living on a small island which is a leader of industrial development, in the air and on the ground. Industrial progress has always created nuisances far ahead of our being able to solve them. To-day we are at least more conscious than we were of our moral duty to clear up the nuisance we create in industry. We are slowly tackling the pollution of our rivers; we are even starting to tackle the problem of smoke, which has been with us for over a hundred years. In the past, remedies have lagged far behind the abuses they sought to cure, but I think the time-lag is definitely shortening, and some of the finest brains in our country are to-day engaged on trying to solve the particular problem of this noise almost on the heels of the progress which has brought the noise.
I hope that I have managed to convince your Lordships that though we have, of necessity, taken away some liberties from the subjects living near these airfields, we are doing everything possible to limit the discomfort which they suffer. It is, however, a very difficult problem and it would be idle to pretend that we expect to find a solution within months. In the meantime, we are using all the immediate palliatives which the brains of Government scientists and private contractors can suggest. It would be wrong to think that the Government or private contractors are satisfied or complacent: they are not. In many directions the nation is paying a price for progress in the air. The people concerned in the industry are always willing to accept for themselves the discomforts and dangers of the pioneer. It is their great regret that they have not yet been able to remove the discomforts to outside parties, but they are working.
These suggestions which I have mentioned and those put forward by noble Lords will have the consideration of the Minister, because, rather appositely, he will have an opportunity of speaking on this very subject in about a week's time in another place. During the interval he will be able to digest the various suggestions, some of which are most interesting, that have been made to-day, and he

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will be able to announce any conclusions to which he wishes to come. I only hope that, in the meantime, I have managed to satisfy my noble friend that it would be folly to press this Prayer and so risk crippling our air defence.
5.43 p.m.
VISCOUNT HUDSON: My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this debate. I thought it only fair to the noble Lord who has just spoken that I should listen to the case he had to make out on behalf of the Government. I was profoundly disappointed. It seems to me that there are two questions involved: first of all the difference between national interest and private rights; and secondly, the steps that are being taken to remedy this state of affairs. As regards the second, it did not seem to me, with respect, that the noble Lord made out any case of any real activity. From what he has described it seems that there is no sort or kind of real financial incentive to the manufacturers concerned. As I understand it, these manufacturers are using the resources of the Government and getting repaid for it. If, by any chance, at the end of the experiment they say, "We are very sorry; we have done everything we could think of, but have failed," the only people who will suffer financially are the taxpayers, because the cost of the experiments will be included in the cost-plus basis on which aeroplanes are built—I understand that is correct.
LORD HAWKE: Is not the noble Viscount putting forward a very strong inducement for manufacturers to continue the maximum number of experiments if they are being paid for by somebody else?
VISCOUNT HUDSON: No. Because the incentive to see that the experiments are successful should be a financial one, so that, if they fail, firms will suffer in their own pockets.
LORD HAWKE: It is also a moral one as I brought Out.
VISCOUNT HUDSON: I am concerned with the effective question of finance which, over a long period of years, I have always understood to be the most effective incentive one can get. Morality comes into it, but as between moral and financial incentives I think the more effective incentive, even with big firms,
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is the financial one. A fault I find with this Order is that it contains no sort of suggestion of a time limit within which an individual firm should take steps, either by using existing known methods or by the invention of new methods, which would effectively diminish, if not entirely eliminate, this noise.
On the point about the definition of "national interest," I think that everyone concerned will realise that the climate of public opinion has definitely changed in the last few months, even in the last few weeks; and that in many cases the defence about a thing being "in the national interest" is wearing pretty thin. We all admit that in the last resource national interest must prevail—no one will deny that. But there has been an enormous gradation in various Ministers in the past—and even in the present, for that matter—in their exact definition of where "national interest" begins and ends. I can only suggest to the noble Lord that he should advise his colleagues, more especially those in some of the Service Departments, of what I say: that public patience is wearing rather thin and that the climate of public opinion is very definitely veering towards a much stricter and more limited definition of "public interest" where it conflicts with private enterprise or private property than has been the case in the past.
It is also worthy of note that this question of noise is not one between a small number of people owning property and a large national interest; it is a matter increasingly affecting not tens of thousands but hundreds of thousands of persons living up and down the country near these various aerodromes; and it therefore becomes far more important and affects far more people than a narrow question of taking a piece of land belonging to a private individual. I agree that the Government cannot withdraw this Order, because of the danger of leaving themselves open to injunctions and payments for damages; but I do not see why the Government should not consider allowing this Order to stand and considering at a very early stage superseding it by a new Order which would take account of these various points, with some set time limit for these operations and inventions. The noble Lord talked of £100,000 as being quite a lot of money, because the work was supplemented by other inquiries being made privately by

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firms. But the total, even supposing it is doubled or trebled, is still a fleabite in relation to the total problem; and, quite frankly, had this sort of question arisen during the war it would have been solved in no time at all, because the Prime Minister would have put through one of his famous minutes, "Action this day"; and action would have followed. I think my noble friend Lord Hawke had better advise his colleagues to see whether some really drastic action to expedite what is being done could not be taken.
5.48 p.m.
LORD BENNETT OF EDGBASTON: My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate, but in reply to what has just been said by my noble friend I would suggest that the noble Lord has not been quite fair. The general idea is that people who are making these noises are not aware of them; that they are rather careless of the public interest. I know sufficient to know that the people who are making these noises are very concerned: they are doing everything they can, using the Government facilities and their own, to try to reduce the noise nuisance of which they are perfectly well aware. If we are to have these high-powered aeroplanes, and to have high priority in the air, and to lose no time in catching up, I beg your Lordships not to presume that nothing is being done, and not to interfere with what has been done.
I have no doubt that if I lived near such an airfield I should feel as savage as do the rest of these people—I am well aware of that. But this work is necessary. I know of organisations that have taken their testing apparatus to various parts of the country, in order to get away from populous areas. Instead of doing this work in the most convenient places, they have gone to inconvenient places. These people, I repeat, are well aware of the nuisance they are creating. But it is a nuisance which is part of the price we have to pay for this tremendous drive which we are putting forth with regard to jet engines. We do not yet know the whole story, but I am sure that as time goes on facilities will become available for reducing noise. In the meantime, I support the Minister in suggesting that my noble friends do not press this any further. They have aired their views, and I am quite sure that the Minister
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and all concerned will now know of the anxiety that exists in your Lordships' House about this problem. The rest of the world, and particularly those who suffer from the nuisance, will learn of the interest that your Lordships are taking in this problem, and I am sure that those who are making this noise will take to heart everything that is being said, and will do their best to quell the nuisance as soon as they can.
5.52 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I also, like the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson and the noble Lord, Lord Bennett of Edgbaston, had not intended to take part in this debate. But I really do not think that the House is being quite fair to my noble friend, Lord Hawke. I have very great sympathy with those who have raised this debate. Of course, we all know that the noise caused on aerodromes, especially by racing engines on the ground, at places where 'planes are manufactured, is a very real nuisance. I speak as a sufferer myself, for I live in the neighbourhood of one of the largest aircraft factories in this country, and I know from my own experience how wearing is the sound that comes from it at certain hours of the day. It causes great irritation to us all. The question is: what practical limit is there? The suggestion has been made that, though the noise should be allowed, because we cannot, from the national point of view, allow the manufacturer to stop work upon which he is engaged, house owners should be allowed to claim damages. Over how wide an area? Take a place like that at which I live. It is a fairly highly populated district. Are you to say 100 yards, a quarter of a mile or half a mile? I live about a mile away from the factory. Can I claim? Are you going to have these myriad claims put in from every householder in the neighbourhood of every aerodrome in the country, enterprising solicitors and other lawyers encouraging their clients to put in claims? I believe that you would reach a situation which would be quite intolerable from the national point of view.
LORD SILKIN: May I be allowed to intervene to deal with the question which the noble Marquess has just asked?—it was not entirely a rhetorical one. The answer to it is that anyone who goes to the

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court goes at his peril. Anyone who claims damages has to prove damage. If he fails to prove that he has suffered actual damage then he becomes responsible for paying the costs of other people. I can assure the noble Marquess that people will not lightly go to court.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: A great many people, I think, will. There is no definite distance, no definite outside limit, beyond which a claim cannot be put in.
The sort of suggestion which has been made is that this is a new situation which has never occurred before. But it has. Look at the railways. There are large numbers of people who since 1840 have lived in close proximity to the railways. We all know that, as we travel out from the great London stations, we see immense numbers of houses practically abutting on the railway. Great roaring trains run past them at every hour of the day and night. There is much whistling, and abundance of other noise—indeed, the noise is far greater than that which is experienced in the neighbourhood of aerodromes. Do the people living in those houses get compensation? Not a penny! And they never have done. The reason, I suppose, is that when the relevant Act was originally passed in 1840, or whenever it was, it was considered that the individual must give way to the greater good of the community. And we are now considering, I think, a case of that kind.
Obviously, there must be an effort to find a way of limiting the noise, some new invention which will abate the nuisance. We are all agreed on that, and from inquiries which I have made in the last few minutes I learn that every possible effort is being made in that direction. There is a sort of assumption—so it seemed to me as I listened to the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson—that, if only people had tried, a remedy would have been found long ago. He said that if the Prime Minister had sent out one of his minutes, as he did in the war, the nuisance would have been dealt with within twenty-four hours. Well, the Prime Minister is still there. It is still open to him to send out a minute. But I think that he would be far too realistic to think of doing such a thing. So far as I know, this is rather a novel problem.
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A very careful study is being conducted concerning it at the present time, and I hope and think some remedy will soon be found. I do not say that a complete remedy will ever be found. None has been found yet for the noise caused by trains. But I think that every effort must be made to find one in this case.
As for Lord Hudson's suggestion of a time limit, whilst it sounds attractive I do not quite see what is to happen at the end of the time limit. A certain date, presumably, would be agreed, and after that date the protection given would suddenly lapse. Then everyone, I take it, would immediately be able to go to the court and make as many claims as they like. I do not think that, in practice, the noble Viscount would find that that would work.
VISCOUNT HUDSON: I think that a manufacturer faced with that possibility might be stirred up to the greatest possible activity.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think it would only cause most extraordinary anomalies. There would be people who, during the period when this was to operate, would receive one kind of treatment, and then at the due date all their neighbours would receive a completely different form of treatment. I do not think that that would work.
My Lords, I do not in the least complain of the raising of this matter in this House—indeed, it is just the sort of difficult problem which can very properly be dealt with here, where we are accustomed to considering such problems from a broad national point of view. But I do ask noble Lords to believe that every effort is being made, and will continue to be made, to solve this problem. In the meantime, it is just one of those unhappy situations which cannot be immediately cured, and would not be cured if people were allowed to put in claims. Indeed, if they were allowed to put them in, then the situation, from a national point of view, would be much worse.
LORD OGMORE: Before the noble Marquess ends his speech may I intervene to say just this? I think that, possibly through his not having been here throughout the debate, he may have misunderstood the general tenor of it. What a number of us were saying was this. We did not at all object that this Order

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should be made, if it was in the national interest; but we wanted a clear definition of "national interest." As the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, pointed out, there might be cases where it was a matter purely of the interest of private people. We are not prepared, in that sort of case, to allow manufacturers to make noise without anyone having the right of action against them. That was the basic point of our contention
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: What exactly is in the national interest? You might have a private industry doing very valuable work for the country, but you could not say that it was in the national interest, in the sense in which the noble Lord is using the term.
LORD OGMORE: This is a Government statement. As we understand it, they have said that the Order has been made because it is in the national interest. That was the Government statement, not ours. We asked what is "the national interest." While we agree that the Government should have this Order in "the national interest." we ask: Will you please define what you think is the national interest, as we have not heard a definition?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I understand that all the twenty-two fields which are concerned are being used for purposes of the national interest. I trust that the noble Lord will believe that. Personally, I would go further. For the moment, though, perhaps I may return to the analogy of the railroads. There was an unhappy situation where, in order that the country should be prosperous, it was necessary that certain individuals must suffer. What I would not agree with is the suggestion of some noble Lords that there is no inducement to the manufacturers to put this thing right. Apart from the lack of popularity with their neighbours, there is also the condition of their own workpeople who suffer from this noise. They have every inducement to put the situation right. I do not know when that will be. I think this is something which has to be submitted to for the time being, in the circumstances which the Government have to consider. I certainly do not think that an attempt to annul this Order would be anything but disastrous and unrealistic.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I should like to ask the Government one question, as I was mentioned by the noble Marquess the Leader of the House and by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. There are twenty-two aerodromes which this Order may exempt. As I read the Order, it will still be possible for anyone to be number twenty-three or twenty-four or twenty-five, should they start a private manufacturing or repairing aircraft works or an airfield. If that is so, the trouble may extend far beyond twenty-two. That is the point I should like to get clear.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I understand that that is correct; but does the noble Lord really anticipate that there will be more new airfields set up to create new noise nuisances?
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: That is my objection to the Government's taking this very wide power. I do not object to the twenty-two aerodromes, if they are necessary. What I object to is the blank power for others, in the near future.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I think the noble Lord's point is covered when I say that the Minister is having a week or so to digest all the things that have been said in this debate. The point he raised never occurred to me, but I am sure that it will be carefully considered by my right honourable friend.
6.2 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, this debate has developed a long way from the attitude I adopted in approaching the subject and has moved to the technical question of aerodromes. The noble Lord who replied—and I thank him for his reply—need not be under any apprehension that I am going to try to divide the House. If I had intended to do that, I should have given the Government Front Bench every indication beforehand that I was going, to do so.
I should like to make two points. Apropos of what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, said just now, will the Government see to it that the question of the location of any new factories for the manufacture of aeroplanes or any new aerodromes will be seriously gone into? The noble Marquess the Leader of the House told us how he is suffering.

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I am suffering, too, and if they had only listened to the local people they would have known what was going to happen and that there was a perfectly good site five or six miles away at which they would not have had any of the troubles they now have. The other point is with regard to the national interest. Of course, the national interest always must come first; but when the Government see that the national interest is going to damage the value of the property and wreck the lives of a great many people, I would ask them, before they embark on anything of the sort, to take into sympathetic consideration the situation these people will be in by the carrying out of these things in the national interest. That is all I have to say. I thank noble Lords very much indeed for having joined in the debate. I am very glad the noble Marquess the Leader of the House takes the view that it was worth while. I am not going to divide the House, and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

POST OFFICE (SITE AND RAILWAY) BILL
6.5 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order), on recommitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.

MARRIAGE ACT, 1949 (AMEND MENT) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
BEIT TRUST BILL [H.L.]
Reported, without amendment.
BIRKENHEAD CORPORATION BILL
The Queen's consent signified, and Bill reported, with Amendments.
  CONSUMPTION OF MILK
  CONSUMPTION OF MILK