Sitting of 4 February 1954

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS

    Emigration and Immigration
    Mr. Hurdasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations to what extent Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are co-operating in the proposals lately announced by Her Majesty's Government in Australia to encourage British immigration to Australia.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. John Foster):The United Kingdom Government are co-operating with the Australian Government in encouraging British migration to Australia, both financially, under the Assisted Passage Scheme, and in other ways, such as publicity, recruitment and the provision of sea transport.
    Mr. Hurd: May we take it that Her Majesty's Government recognise that the investment of British people in Australia is just as important as the investment of British capital?
    Mr. Foster: We recognise that it is very important that emigration should be encouraged to the fullest possible extent.
    Mr. Noel-Baker:Has the hon. and learned Gentleman succeeded in persuading the Government to join the Inter-Governmental Committee on Emigration, in Geneva, to which the Australians attach so much importance?
    Mr. Foster: I think that that question should be addressed to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Is not the hon. and learned Gentleman very much concerned in the matter, since the Australians so
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    much desire that we should join that Committee?
    Mr. Foster: Yes, but that is another question.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what restrictions are imposed by the several Governments of the Commonwealth in respect of emigration and immigration between the other members of the Commonwealth and this country and its dependencies; and, in particular, as between the Union of South Africa and the Central African Federation.
    Mr. Foster: There are no powers for restricting British subjects or British protected persons wishing to enter or leave the United Kingdom. While I cannot undertake to give a detailed account of the practice of each Member of the Commonwealth or of the Rhodesia and Nyasaland Federation in this matter, I can say that in most cases the Governments concerned have powers to restrict the movement of persons between their countries and other countries, including the United Kingdom and its dependencies.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware of any restriction that has been imposed by the Central African Federation against the immigration of citizens from the Union of South Africa?
    Mr. Foster: I have not sufficient knowledge about that, but I could try to get the information for the hon. Member.

    Indian Commissioner, East and Central Africa
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what representations were made by Her Majesty's Government in respect of the recent High Commissioner for India in Kenya, Mr. Pant; and what communications between Her Majesty's Government and the Indian Government have yet taken place in respect of his successor.
    Mr. Foster: No formal representations have been made by the United Kingdom Government about Mr. Pant, the Indian Commissioner in East and Central Africa, and no communication has yet been received from the Indian Government as to the name of his successor.
    Mr. Sorensen:Is the Minister aware that Mr. Pant has recently done yeoman service for race relationships in Kenya? Has his successor been appointed yet?
    Mr. Foster:We have not had any communication about his successor.
    Mr. Braine:Having regard to the friendly and informal nature of the relationship between this country and other sovereign nations of the Commonwealth, would my hon. and learned Friend agree that it would be most unfortunate if he said anything which put on a formal footing discussions of a confidential nature which may take place between this country and another member of the Commonwealth family?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Shareholders' Rights (Protection)
    Sir R. Boothbyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to recent proposals on the part of boards of directors of joint-stock companies to remove part of the assets of their companies from the voting control of the shareholders, or to change the character and purpose of the companies without prior consultation with the shareholders; and whether he will consider introducing legislation to amend the Companies Actwith the object of protecting the rights of shareholders, and of strengthening their powers against arbitrary action on the part of boards which they consider inimical to their interests.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): I am aware of the cases which my hon. Friend has in mind. I have no reason to think, however, that the remedies available under existing law are inadequate to protect shareholders against action by boards of directors which is ultra vires, or in breach of trust,or oppressive.

    Business Failures
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of business failures in 1953; whether this was an increase or a decrease when com pared with 1951; and what was the difference.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: In1953, the number of bankruptcies, deeds of arrangement and company liquidations which may be regarded as "business failures"was 3,642. This was 697 more than in 1951. As the hon. Member knows, the figure for 1951 had increased by nearly 1,000 compared with 1948, and all such figures should be interpreted with caution.
    Mr. Dodds:Although they may be interpreted with caution, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that this increase is a matter for concern? Does he not agree that unless there is an appreciable increase in trade between the East and West this year we shall be in a worse position in 1955?
    Mr. Ian Harvey:Do the 1951 figures include the late Administration?

    Terylene Fur Coats
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give further support to the industries concerned in the production of terylene fur coats, in order that mass production may be started so as to ensure the export of these coats before next winter.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am informed that the fabric for these coats is still in the technical development stage and that mass production will not be a practical proposition for some time. The industries concerned are receiving every assistance from the producers of the raw material, and I am not aware that they require any special support from the Government.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Are these terylene fur coats animal, vegetable or mineral?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I should like notice of that question.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton:Will the President encourage this interesting new development, because if the ladies can be persuaded to wear these coats instead of mink it will definitely help our foreign trade balance?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:Without attempting to say what ladies ought to wear, I shall do all I can to encourage the development of terylene.

    Merchandise Marks Act (Infringement)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade what guidance he has given to industries making consumer goods in view of the coming into force of the principal amendments to the Merchandise Marks Act on 1st February last; and what plans his Department has made to enforce the provisions of the Acts in the immediate future.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have issued a Press notice drawing the attention of traders to the provisions of Section 1 ofthe new Act and to the increased penalties for infringement; but I can give no specific guidance on these matters without involving myself in the interpretation of the Act, which would be an encroachment on the functions of the courts.
    As regards enforcement, I am always prepared to consider prosecution in suitable cases when the circumstances warrant action by the Board of Trade.
    Miss Burton:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all reputable traders, as well as their customers, will be very glad to know that he is prepared to institute proceedings where he considers it advisable? Is he aware that from 1938 only six proceedings were instituted by the Board of Trade, which is quite inadequate? Does he hope to be able to bring more proceedings now that the procedure under this Act has been widened?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:It all depends on what circumstances are brought to my attention.

    Furnishing Fabrics (Finishing Standards)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made with the adoption and application of standards of finishing for furnishing fabrics.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I understand that draft specifications, which include standards of finishing, have been prepared for upholstery fabrics and are at present under consideration in conjunction with the draft British Standard for upholstered furniture. Certain performance standards for curtain cloths are also under consideration.
    Mrs. White: Will the right hon. Gentleman do all he can to expedite the final decision in this matter, in view of the fact that for some housewives the purchase of furnishing materials is a major capital expenditure and they are entitled to have a reasonable assurance about the quality of what they buy?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Yes, Sir, certainly.
    Mr. Shackleton:Would the right hon. Gentleman also ensure that these specifications are flexible enough to allow at least the trial introduction of new materials?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:That is, no doubt, one of the factors which the British Standards Institution will bear in mind.

    Textiles (Labelling)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the South African Wool Board has asked the Minister concerned for the complete labelling of all textiles; that the representatives of 14 of the largest women's organisations in Britain met recently in London and recommended the informative labelling of all textiles, including the percentages of constituent fibres and a statement as to whether any particular fabric should be washed or dry-cleaned; and if, therefore, he will receive a deputation representative of consumer, retailer and manufacturer interests to discuss the matter.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:I am aware of these developments. I am informed that the matter is under consideration by the British Standards Institution, on which the various interests concerned are represented. I doubt whether it would help for me to receive a deputation, at any rate at this stage, and I should prefer to await the outcome of B.S.I.'s deliberations.
    Miss Burton:Did not the right hon. Gentleman inform the House on several occasions recently that he was definitely not in favour of this labelling by fibre content? If so, may we take it now that he has changed his mind and would favour it?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No, Sir.That would be a very wide interpretation of my answer.

    Clothing (Camelhair)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of public concern at the advertising as wool and camelhair of coats or cloth which contain only 2 or 3 per cent. of camelhair; and if he will institute proceedings against such offences under the Merchandise Marks Acts.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:No, Sir; but if evidence of infringement of the Merchandise Marks Acts is submitted to me I am always prepared to consider whether the circumstances warrant the institution of proceedings.
    Miss Burton:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I shall have much pleasure in giving him the names of 10 manufacturers who are guilty of this infringement? Will he consider instituting prosecutions against them?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:I shall value such a communication.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood:Will the President give serious consideration to this because of the adverse effect it may have upon our export market, especially in view ofthe fact that overseas buyers buy goods wrongly described and go away with the wrong information about the quality of our high-grade goods?

    Spinning Firm, Blackburn (Dismissals)
    Mrs. Castleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is awarethat Messrs. English Spinners, Limited, Blackburn, have been obliged to dismiss 30 workers owing to the refusal to them of a licence to import spinning kraft from Scandinavia; and whether, in view of his promise to encourage alternative industries in areas like Blackburn, he will now issue such a licence.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The answer to both parts of the Question is "Yes, Sir."
    Mrs. Castle:While thanking the President for the action he has taken in this case, following my representations, may I ask whether he would agree that the present system of allocating this raw material is totally unsatisfactory? Will he consider whether supplies, instead of going through merchants, may go direct to the firms who are processing the raw material and providing employment in this country?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: If the hon. Lady would put a Question on the Order Paper about allocation I should be happy to answer it. But I do not think that any system of allocating quotas can be wholly satisfactory to everyone.
    Mr. Shackleton:Would the President treat this matter as urgent, because the present system is the most unsatisfactory which has been devised? Is he aware there are other firms, including Messrs. Somic, Ltd., of Preston, who have been battling with the Board of Trade in an attempt to get more favourable treatment, and have been met by a blank refusal?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:The most satisfactory answer would be that our balance of payments position should improve to a point where we might liberalise this trade.

    Scandinavian Kraft Paper (Import Restrictions)
    Mrs. Castleasked the President of the Board of Trade why, in view of the steps taken to liberalise trade with Europe and, particularly, with Scandinavia, the import of Scandinavian kraft paper is still restricted by licensing to a level below 1951, thus causing unemployment in essential industries.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The United Kingdom's balance of payments is not yet such that we can afford to relax all our restrictions upon trade with Western Europe, and the removal of all quota restrictions from imports of paper would cost too much in present circumstances. Substantial additional quotas have recently been made available, however, for the import of paper and board of most types, including Scandinavian kraft paper. I would add that imports of paper during the year 1951 were exceptionally high, and included imports for stock building.
    Mrs. Castle:But is it not absurd that at a time when we are liberalising trade with Europe, and bringing in many more luxuries, we should be restricting employment in this country by restricting the importation of raw materials? Is not it a fact that only the other day the Economic Secretary to the Treasury said that there were no longer any balance of payments reasons why we should restrict

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    Japanese imports? Cannot we therefore bring raw material into this country and so create employment instead of destroying it?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I hope that the hon. Lady is not in favour of the liberalisation of Japanese imports to the same extent as we are liberalising them from Western Europe.
    Mrs. Castle:In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Factory, South Wales (Grant)
    Sir W. Wakefieldasked the President of the Board of Trade why Super Oil Seals and Gaskets, Limited, who incurred an expenditure of £46,000 and losses of approximately £50,000 in connection with the opening of a factory in South Wales under pressure from his Department, have had their application for a grant under Section 3 (1) of the Distribution of Industry Act, 1950, refused.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am aware that the company claim that certain expenditure and loss were incurred solely as a result of the establishment of production in a modern factory near Cardiff which was leased to them at a favourable rent. Having considered all the relevant factors, I am not, however, satisfied, as required by Section 3 (1) of the Distribution of Industry Act, 1950, that there are exceptional circumstances which justify a grant in this case.
    Sir W. Wakefield:Will my right hon. Friend tell industry that he is not proposing to give further assistance under this Act, as he is clearly rendering inoperable the intention of the Act by administrative action?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No, Sir. I think I must judge each case on its merits, in accordance with the statutory requirements of the Act.
    Sir W. Wakefield:Can my right hon. Friend say in how many cases a decision for assistance was agreed?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:There are two cases in which assistance has been agreed in principle and where it will shortly be given.

    Sea Lions (Import Licence)
    Mr. Mott-Radclyffeasked the President of the Board of Trade what are the Regulations governing the issue of a licence to import sea lions into the United Kingdom from a dollar area.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: There has recently been a large number of applications for licences to import sea lions from the United States, all of which have had to be refused. Some of these sea lions were gifts, but we could not agree to issue licences for valuable gifts intended for commercial use.
    Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a former constituent of mine has been placed in a somewhat peculiar position in having received the unusual gift of a consignment of sea lions by air from the United States; and that after prolonged consultation at London Airport with immigration and Customs and Excise authorities—who may or may not have taken their fin prints—the sea lions have now been impounded in the Zoo? Can he say what is to happen to them?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:I understand that the sea lions are the property, or are in the possession of, Her Majesty's Customs. Whether or not they are the property of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, questions about their disposal should be addressed to him.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke:Are sea lions and Super Oil Seals the same thing?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:I think we have moved away from that subject now.

    Exports to Cuba (Value)
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade why the value of United Kingdom exports to Cuba declined progressively in 1952 and 1953, compared with 1951, in view of the Cuban tariff reductions secured in the Trade Agreement of 1951 and the un favourable balance of trade with that country in all three years.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: As I informed my hon. Friend on 28th January, it is not possible to explain satisfactorily within the limits of a reply to a Parliamentary Question why exports in general have fallen off in a given market. The

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    value of our exports to Cuba in 1953 cannot be fairly related to the figures for 1951 and 1952, which were increased by deliveries under one important contract for motor buses worth some £3½ million. There was also a large export of sugar machinery in 1951.
    Mr. Russell:Is it not rather extraordinary that after the Trade Agreement of 1951 our balance of trade should be so unfavourable?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: A great many factors are involved in the exports to one particular market and it is impossible to deal with them in answering a single Question.

    Rubber Boots (Manufacture)
    Mr. Crouchasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the rubber boots bearing the trade name "Seacrest," on the bottom of the instep a blue label bearing the name "Empire," and underneath it figures 31/51 and the letters H.K. moulded on the actual sole of the boot at the instep are not of Empire manufacture; and whether he will take action in respect of this importation.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No, Sir. But I will gladly look into the matter and should be grateful if my hon. Friend can let me have any further information about any specific consignment of which he is aware
    Mr. Crouch: I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer, but is he aware that a constituent of mine went into a shop last week—not in my constituency—to buy some boots, and, finding no recognised brands available, inquired where these boots weremade, and the shopkeeper said "I should not tell you, but it is Japan"?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars I shall be able to make inquiries.

    Exports to Soviet Bloc
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade what proposals for the relaxation of the embargo on certain exports to the Soviet bloc he has made to the Consultative Group Co-ordinating Committee in the last three months.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:The proposals discussed by this informal consultative body of experts, representing this country and our friends in Europe, have never been made public, but any decisions reached by Governments after discussion by the Committee are, of course, publicly announced.
    Mr. Swingler:As Members of the Government are now continually talking about the desirability of East-West trade by saying that we must be subject to the Paris Group, may we know whether the right hon. Gentleman has made any proposals for the relaxation of restrictions?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It has never been the practice of this Government, or the previous Government, to publish the proposals which are put forward by individual Governments.

    Foreign Exports (Subsidy)
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade what evidence he has of exports from foreign countries which compete with British exports being subsidised directly or indirectly contrary to the principles of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: It is very difficult to obtain evidence of direct subsidy, but some Governments certainly stimulate their exports by indirect subsidies, such as the remission of taxation or of other charges on exporters. The use of such measures or of export subsidies in general is not prohibited by the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, but Her Majesty's Government have been and are taking all possible steps to secure their withdrawal, including in particular discussions in the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation.
    Mr. Russell: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the production of raisins and the growing of citrus fruit in the United States?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I shall be very happy to consider any examples that my hon. Friend likes to place before me.

    Jamaican Tobacco
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade why total imports of tobacco from Jamaica fell from 309,917 lb. in 1952 to 217,083 lb. in 1953.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:About half of the decrease is due to the fact that the statistics of 1952 imports of cigar leaf were inflated by a large shipment at the end of 1951 which arrived too late to be included in the statistics for that year. For the rest, the decrease appears to reflect a reduction in demand for Jamaican cigars.
    Mr. Russell:Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the imports of cigars which he is now bringing in from Cuba will not adversely affect the import of cigars from Jamaica?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:The restrictions on the import of cigars from Cuba were imposed on balance of payments grounds.

    Anglo-Japanese Agreement (Discussions)
    Mr. Doddsasked the President of the Board of Trade what discussions took place with the leaders of the industries concerned before signing the agreement with Japan.
    Lieut.-Colonel Schofieldasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps were taken to consult representatives of the cotton textile trade before the conclusion of the Anglo-Japanese trade pact in view of the fact that the British cotton trade will be adversely affected.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:I would refer the hon. Members to the answers given by my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury to a Private Notice Question by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) on Monday last.
    Lieut.-Colonel Schofield: As the industry was not consulted, why is such a large proportion of the sterling under the payments agreement to be provided at the expense of the United Kingdom cotton trade? Would it not have been better to spread the burden over a greater number of industries instead of letting it fall so largely on the cotton textiles of this country?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The Agreement covers trade of £200 million each way. It has never been the practice of this Government, nor that of the previous Government, to enter into consultations with industry on the removal of quotas imposed on balance of payments grounds.
    Mr. H. Wilson:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has never been any negotiation, since the war, involving Japanese competition, which has not been the subject of the fullest possible consultation with the industries concerned? Secondly, since his answer referred to the answer given by the Economic Secretary, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is an unworthy answer for a Minister that he has informed a certain gentleman in Manchester, in confidence, of what was happening and then, having muzzled him and prevented him from consulting the industry, quotes him as evidence of consultation?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It is absolutely plain that such a quotation has not been made as evidence of consultation. The answer which I gave just now is the accurate one, that neither this Government nor any previous Government has entered into consultation with individual industries about the removal of quotas imposed for balance of payments, as opposed to protective, purposes.
    Mr. Wilson:Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my first question, in relation to Japan? Does he not agree that in every previous case involving Japan—about which many industries are peculiarly sensitive; it is not like trade with Holland or other such countries—there was full consultation? Why was there not consultation this time?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:I am answering the question about whether or not there has been any consultation about the imposition or removal of quotas, and I say that under no Government has there been consultation, nor should there be.
    Mr. S. Silverman:Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that what he says on that issue evades the point which my right hon. Friend is putting to him? Is not the real reason why nobody in Lancashire was consulted about it was because it was clear that if they had been consulted none of them would have agreed?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:It is perfectly plain that no consultation could take place on the quotas so far as this country was concerned because they were imposed for balance of payments reasons; and still less would it be proper for Her Majesty's

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    Government to consult Lancashire about quotas which the Colonial Empire brings into force.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade what assurances concerning the prevention of unfair trading practices, such as the copying of designs and falsification of trade marks, were sought by Her Majesty's Government from the Japanese Government before signing the recent Trade Agreement.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:Under the Peace Treaty, the Japanese Government declared their intention in public and private trade to conform to internationally accepted fair practices. Since the war, we have had only a small number of complaints of copying of designs or similar practices on the part of Japanese traders; we have taken these up with the Japanese authorities and have found them cooperative in stopping these infringements.
    Mr. Swingler:Would the Minister read, or get one of his advisers to read, the report of Her Majesty's Commercial Minister in Tokio, which came out 18 months ago, since the Peace Treaty was signed, and which shows quite plainly that there has been a revival of the manufacture of counterfeited and copied British designs? As this is a matter of very great importance to the pottery industry, and as there is no protection in the Colonies under the Merchandise Marks Act, does his answer mean that we have had no assurances from the Japanese Government in this matter?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:I have read the report, and I will consider any individual examples given to me, but I would add that British traders would help if they protected their designs and trade marks by registration both in this country and in the export markets.
    Dr. Stross:As the Government are to allow £50,000 worth of Japanese pottery to come into this country this year, can we have an assurance from the President that, if some of it imitates any of our well-known patterns, action will be taken, because, otherwise, it will merely add insult to injury?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: If any individual example occurred and it is brought to my attention, I will certainly take the matter up.
    Mr. Burden:Is not one of the difficulties in this matter the fact that one cannot register a design, but that, where there are infringements of patents and trade marks, action can be taken? It is very difficult to take action if a design is copied.
    Mr. Thorneycroft:I understand that it is possible to register these designs in foreign markets.

    New Potatoes
    Sir H. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade from which countries 24,528 cwts. of new potatoes were imported into this country during December, 1953.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The countries were Cyprus, Italy, Channel Islands and the Irish Republic.
    Sir H. Williams:Is it really necessary to import new potatoes at that time of the year, because it prejudices British agriculture later?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I do not think that any new potatoes are grown in this country in December.
    Mr. Vane:At a time when a great many people who grew potatoes last year, including myself, are having great difficulty in disposing of their crop, is it not rather unnecessary to spend foreign currency on importing new potatoes which are very inferior to the British product?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:Three of these sources of supply are open and free, being members of the Commonwealth.

    Irish Cocoa Preparations (Imports)
    Sir H. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade the main classes of cocoa preparation, the importation of which from the Irish Republic increased in value from £4,378,000 in 1951 to £15,986,000 in 1953.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:Most of the increase in the value of imports of cocoa preparations from the Irish Republic between 1951 and 1953 was in imports of milk crumb and chocolate couverture.
    Sir H. Williams:Can my right hon. Friend explain why there has been this fantastic rate of increase over a short period?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think it was connected with sugar rationing. The abolition of sugar rationing will no doubt get rid of this type of trade.

    Wringing and Washing Machines (Hire Purchase)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the President of the Board of Trade what reports he has had as to the effect of the order requiring a 33⅓ per cent. deposit for hire purchase of hand-operated wringing and washing machines; and whether he will now announce the abolition or at least reduction of this deposit.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have received a number of representations about the effect of the Hire-Purchase and Credit Sale Agreements (Control) Order on sales of hand-operated wringing and washing machines, the most recent on 28th January from the Washing Machine Makers Association. These representations are being very carefully considered, but I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Hynd:Will the President bear in mind that these are essentially articles used by the less well off sections of the population?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I should not like to express an opinion on that matter.

    Cotton Piece Goods (Import Duty)
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade what rate of import duty is at present paid on cotton piece goods imported into the United Kingdom from India.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No duty is chargeable on cotton piece goods imported from India provided that the usual conditions of Imperial Preference relating to proof of origin and consignment of the goods are complied with to the satisfaction of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise.
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade what rate of import duty will be payable on cotton piece goods imported into the United Kingdom from Japan under the recently announced trade agreement; and what rebate will be pay able on the re-export of such goods.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Foreign cotton piece goods are generally liable to an import duty of 17½ per cent. ad valorem,
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    though if the goods in any way resemble lace or are embroidered, they would be charged 25 per cent. ad valorem. These duties apply to imports from Japan as from other foreign countries. Drawback of the import duty paid is allowable on these textiles if they are exported as piece goods.

    Cotton Industry Machinery (Import Duty)
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade what rate of import duty is payable on imported machinery used in the cotton spinning and weaving industry; and if he will immediately reduce or eliminate such duty.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft:Foreign textile machinery is in general liable, according to type, to an import duty of 15 or 20 per cent. ad valorem. The Board of Trade are always prepared to examine any request made by a representative body of users for the reduction or removal of any protective duty. No such application has been received in respect of textile machinery.
    Mr. Holt:If such an application is received, will the President give it proper consideration? Now that the cotton trade will be open to much severer competition, does he not think it is his duty to ensure that other trades from which it has to purchase important materials do not receive greater protection than the cotton trade?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: If an application is made to me I will give it proper consideration.
    Mr. H. Wilson:How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that statement with the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 11th March, 1952, that no applications under Section 10 of the Finance Act, 1932, would be considered?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:They are different matters. This is a question of an increase in the general rate of tariff.

    Imported Animals
    Sir H. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade what were the other animals, numbering 84,215, to the value of £90,159, which were imported into this country during 1953.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Of the animals numbering 84,215, valued at £90,159, and imported during 1953, nearly 65,000 were poultry, valued at £55,000. The remainder are not identified in the official statistics.
    Sir H. Williams:Why does my right hon. Friend include poultry among animals not customarily classified in Board of Trade returns as poultry when they are dead?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:These 55,000 were the only poultry, and, among the other animals were included swine, goats and turtles.
    Sir H. Williams:Why should poultry appear in one classification when they are dead animals, and in another classification along with animals when alive?
    Mr. Nicholson:What are bees classified under?
    Mr. Thorneycroft:I should be glad if my hon. Friend would put that question down.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Superannuation and Pensions Schemes (Committee's Recommendations)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the principal recommendations of the Tucker Committee on the treatment for Income Tax purposes of superannuation and pensions schemes; and what action he proposes to take on them.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins:On a point of order. As it is two months since we had the opportunity of having the Chancellor of the Exchequer present to answer Questions, and as the Chancellor apparently is not helping us by his presence today, may we have an assurance that he has not given up answering Parliamentary Questions?
    Mr. Speaker:That is not a point of order.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): The answer to the Question is as follows: The Committee's report is now being printed and will be published as soon as possible. As regards the last part of the Question, I cannot anticipate my right hon.
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    Friend's Budget statement. My right hon. Friend has asked me to take this opportunity of expressing in public our thanks to Mr. J. Millard Tucker, Q.C., and his colleagues on the Committee for the arduous and valuable work which they have done.
    Mrs. White: In view of the disquieting comments made on this matter by Professor Titmuss, may we be assured that we shall have this very important document in ample time to study it before the Chancellor introduces his Budget?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I very much hope that it will be available before the end of the month.

    Coal, Steel and Farming Industries (Output)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how the current index figure of output per man, in the coal, steel and farming industries, respectively, compares with those of 1938.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. R. Maudling): The increase in output per man year between 1938 and 1953 is estimated at 2 per cent. in the coalmining industry and approximately 50 per cent. in steel melting and rolling. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture has not published a comparable figure for agriculture, since there are no reliable means of computing it. A recent unofficial estimate of the increase between 1937–39 and 1952–53 gives a rise of 30 per cent. in output per man year.

    Commonwealth Economic Development (Statistics)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how far proposals for some permanent organisation for the collection and analysis of all economic data related to the economic development of the British Commonwealth were discussed at the Sidney Conference; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Maudling:There is already adequate and effective machinery for examining problems of economic development in the various Commonwealth capitals, and I do not think that any other organisation for this purpose is called for, nor were any such proposals discussed at Sydney.
    Mr. Beswick:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if I am fortunate enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye I shall reserve my supplementary question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer until later this afternoon?
    Mr. Maudling:I agree that this is a very important matter, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for his leniency towards me, but there is a Sterling Area Statistical Committee, which regularly meets in London, and I think he will find that Commonwealth Governments are extremely well served by the statistical services of this Committee.

    Local Authority Housing Programmes (Interest-free Borrowing)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the difficulties confronting many of the poorer local authorities in finding the necessary capital to ensure a satisfactory housing programme; that, under the present arrangements, due to the high interest rates charged on borrowed money, these councils have to charge such high rents that many of those in most urgent need of accommodation cannot afford to take possession of new houses; and whether he will consider in his forthcoming Budget making some arrangement whereby local authorities will be able to borrow money free of interest for housing purposes.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:I am unaware of the difficulties to which the hon. Member refers. The rates of interest paid by local authorities on their borrowings are not out of line with market rates generally. The answer to the last part of the Question is "No, Sir."
    Mr. Lewis:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are local authorities which are in the greatest financial difficulties, particularly my own borough of West Ham? They are finding it very difficult indeed to be able to pay their loan interest charges and keep their rents down to a reasonable level. Is he aware that many councils have to charge such high rents for their council houses that the poorest section of the population cannot afford to pay them?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am aware that the county borough of West Ham has
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    certain difficulties, but I think the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that they arise from circumstances connected with the war, and have very little to do with the subject matter of the Question. As far as the latter part of his supplementary question is concerned, he will remember that the Public Works Loans Board rate was reduced from 28th October last.

    Sterling (Convertibility)
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how far the decisions of the Sydney Conference took into consideration the undesirability of a move towards the convertibility of sterling before the effects of the American recession have worked themselves out.
    Mr. Maudling: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made to the House by my right hon. Friend on 2nd February.
    Mr. Jenkins:Will the hon. Gentleman impress upon the Chancellor who, unfortunately, is not here, the undesirability of proceeding with any step of this sort while we are so worried about the effect which the American recession may have upon us?
    Mr. Maudling:If the hon. Gentleman is fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, this afternoon, he will have another opportunity of pressing upon my right hon. Friend the undesirability of doing anything before it ought to be done.

    Equal Pay
    Miss Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what grounds he denies equal pay in the higher grades of the Civil Service while agreeing to it in the higher grades of the Joint Pricing Committee; and whether he will under-take an immediate examination into the expenditure of public money without regard to a common principle.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I understand that men and women in the higher grades of the staff of what is now the Joint Pricing Committee already received equal pay before their work was transferred to the National Health Service. This practice was continued on transfer. Equal pay has not been extended to grades not previously entitled to it.
    The answer to the last part of the Question is "No, Sir."
    Miss Ward:Is it not unfair that people who have not previously been in Government service should be brought into the Government service and obtain the rate for the job, whereas civil servants and teachers, who have served the Government and the country loyally for very many years, and have asked for equal pay, are denied what the Treasury are prepared to accept in respect of new entrants into Government service?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Our general policy on this matter has been set out on a number of occasions. I hope my hon. Friend is not suggesting that we ought to alter the conditions of these people for the worse.
    Miss Ward:Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am not suggesting that at all? Does he not know that I am asking him when the negotiations took place and with what body? What committee was it that arrived at this very satisfactory agreement with the Treasury?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.
    Miss Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the recent agreement with the National Association of Local Government Officers making pay increases equal for women and men, he will now apply this principle to the Civil Service.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, Sir. I see no advantage in varying the details of the existing Civil Service practice for fixing women's scales of pay until it is possible to make a change of principle.
    Miss Ward:As the Treasury have already agreed to equal increases of pay and bonus in respect of N.A.L.G.O., does not my right hon. Friend think it is extremely mean to withhold it from the teachers and the civil servants? Where is the justice that we are always being told about?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The arrangements made, which have operated for some years are, in our view, the proper arrangements to make until, as I said in my main answer, it is possible to approach this matter from the point of view of a change of principle. It would be quite wrong to fiddle about with those detailed arrangements.
    Dr. King: Can the Minister tell us the slightest thing that the Government have done, since they took office, towards furthering the principle to which the Government have given their support?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not think we need fear comparison with our predecessors in this respect.
    Miss Ward:Were the new agreements negotiated with the civil servants and teachers especially so that they would be precluded from getting the beneficial decisions negotiated with N.A.L.G.O.?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:These agreements were negotiated on the existing basis of arrangements made some years ago for dealing with pay increases.

    Ballet Companies (Grants)
    Miss Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what ballet companies received Arts Council's Grants for the year 1952–53 and what are the amounts involved; what ballet companies applied for Arts Council's subsidies and were refused; and what offers have been made to any ballet company at a. take-over price by the Arts Council.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Details of the assistance given to ballet companies in England and Wales are given in the Annual Report of the Arts Council, 1952–53, a copy of which was, I understand, sent to my hon. Friend. The Council's Scottish Committee also gave £200 to the Celtic Ballet. It is not the Council's practice to publish details of applications refused, since this might well cause embarrassment to the applicants; in 1952–53, three applications for assistance one for additional assistance were refused.
    The answer to the third part of the Question is, "None."
    Miss Ward:Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in my opinion, there is much too much empire-building in the Arts Council, and that many of the subsidies are not fairly distributed? Would it not now be wise to consider the question of a new arrangement for subsidising the arts?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:The very nature of the problem which my hon. Friend

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    has set out in her supplementary question indicates how undesirable it would be for direct allocation of these grants to be undertaken by aGovernment Department. I am sure that the Arts Council will give due weight to her views.
    Dr. Stross:Will the Financial Secretary bear in mind that the general view does not tally with the complaint made by the hon. Lady, and that, by and large, the Arts Council does a very good job in this and other respects?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:The work of the Arts Council inevitably exposes it to some degree of criticism, but I am inclined to agree with the hon. Gentleman that it does the work pretty well.

    Government-owned Commodities (Insurance)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has now completed his inquiries into the insurance of Government-owned commodities; and what arrangements have been made for the current year.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As regards marine insurance, arrangements to insure are continuing to the end of the year. As regards fire insurance, present arrangements expire at the end of March, and the matter is still under consideration.
    Mr. Robinson: Will very serious consideration be given, before the end of the year, to the termination of these contracts, since there is no longer any reason why the State should subsidise private insurance interests? It is high time that this waste of public money came to an end.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have nothing to add to my answer.

    Health Service Charges (Removal)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as a means of assisting the poor, disabled, sick and old-age pensioners who have to make use of the National Health Service, he will consider in his forthcoming Budget removing all charges made to users of the National Health Service.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, Sir.
    Mr. Lewis: Are we to take it that the only chance that the people will have of getting a free National Health Service again is to wait until the next General Election, when a Labour Government will come in?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter If they look at it in that way, the people will no doubt recall that this process started under the late Administration.

    Food Subsidies (Restoration)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as a means of stabilising and reducing the cost of living, and thereby bringing about a reduction in the present spate of wage demands, thus assisting in bringing about industrial peace, he will consider in his forthcoming Budget making arrangements for the restoration of food subsidies to the pre-October, 1951, level.
    Mr. Maudling: I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
    Mr. Lewis: As this is vital to the industrial peace of the country will the Chancellor promise that he will favourably consider the matter?
    Mr. Maudling: I cannot add anything to what I have said.
    Brigadier Medlicott: Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the best ways of reducing the present demand for increases of wages would be for hon. Members opposite to stop making misleading statements about the cost of living.

    Lancashire Steel Shares (Sale)
    Sir R. Aclandasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make a statement on the response to the Realisation Agency's offer of the shares in Lancashire Steel to the public.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Details of the response to this offer were given in a public statement which was issued by the Agency on 22nd January, and to which I have nothing to add. I am sending a copy of the statement to the hon. Baronet.
    Sir R. Acland:Is it not obvious from that statement, even to the Government, that there is no group of individuals

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    capable of carrying the burden of this agency, except the community as a whole?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:The arrangements for dealing with this matter were set out at some length in the debate that we had on the Motion the other day in the name of the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd). The facts do not support any of the insinuations made by the hon. Baronet.
    Mr. Jay:In view of the results, will not the Government abandon the whole operation which, they must now know, has been as injurious to the country as it is discreditable to the Government?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, Sir. In the first place, I do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's description of this issue, and, secondly, Her Majesty's Government have no intention of abandoning the duty imposed upon them by Parliament.
    Mr. G. R. Strauss:Does the right hon. Gentleman care to make any comment on the strong criticism made of the activities of the Iron and Steel Corporation's holding company by the "Financial Times" and the "Daily Express" this week?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:If the right hon. Gentleman can manage to get that question passed as being in order, I shall be delighted to answer it.

    Business Entertainment Claims (Scrutiny)
    Mr. Goughasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what special instructions have been issued recently by the Board of Inland Revenue to inspectors of taxes for special scrutiny of claims for business entertainment; whether he is satisfied that there are enough personnel to carry out these duties efficiently and impartially; and what is the estimated saving to the Exchequer.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No special instructions have been issued on this subject. As I stated on 8th July last, a new form of return was introduced in 1953 to make the position clearer to employers. Inspectors of taxes have been reminded that the Government expect the law to be uniformlyand properly
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    enforced, and have been given general guidance in the matter.
    The answer to the second part of the Question is, "Yes."I can give no estimate in reply to the third part of the Question.
    Mr. Gough: Would my right hon. Friend agree that, whereas his reply will be universally approved, there is a fear among the already overburdened inspectors of taxes that the instructions which they received recently cannot possibly be carried out without very large increases in their staff?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I fully appreciate the burden of work which falls on the devoted officers of the Inland Revenue, but I understand that they have no undue difficulty in operating this particular matter.
    Mr. Nicholson:Is my hon. Friend aware that if the Revenue Department is overworked the ordinary citizen would be only too willing to relieve it of some of its duties?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am sure that they would tend to differ among themselves as to the direction in which the relief should be given.

    Australian and United States' Wheat (Imports)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what undertakings he gave to the Australian Government with regard to future United Kingdom purchases of wheat from Australia and the United States of America.
    Mr. Maudling: None, Sir. The Australian Government are fully aware that imports of wheat into the United Kingdom are now in private hands.
    Mr. Beswick:Does the Economic Secretary say, contrary to what his right hon. Friend said, that the Government are going to leave it at that?
    Mr. Maudling: I said nothing contrary to what my right hon. Friend has said. I merely emphasised that imports of wheat into the U.K. are now in private hands.
    Mr. Jay: Why do the Government think it sensible to go on spending dollars on North American grain when supplies

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    of this commodity are available in this country and in the sterling area?
    Mr. Maudling:When talking of North American wheat one should remember that we purchase six times as much from Canada as from United States. Imports of grain from Australia were slightly more in 1953 than they were in 1952.
    Mr. H. Morrison:Is it the policy of the Government to avoid dollar purchases where they can and to buy within the sterling area? If that be so, what are the Government doing to apply that policy in the case of wheat, including Australian wheat?
    Mr. Maudling:There are, clearly, advantages in buying in sterling instead of in dollars, but there are also great disadvantages in doing so when large premium prices are involved.
    Mr. Beswick:Did not the previous Government urge the Australian Government to increase production of primary foodstuffs? Now that they have done so, are we to see them holding a surplus themselves, while we go to the United States for wheat?
    Mr. Maudling: I have beenexplaining that we get six times as much wheat from Canada as from United States.
    Mr. Jay:Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that returning the trade to private interests has made it more difficult to save dollars than by not applying the policy at all?
    Mr. Maudling:The figures I have quoted show that we have imported slightly more Australian wheat and slightly less American wheat.

    Industrial Investment Level
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he is taking, in view of theremarks of the recently-published survey of the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, to raise the level of industrial investment above that for 1953.
    Mr. Maudling:The last Budget included several measures designed to encourage further investment. I cannot anticipate what may or may not be included in the next Budget, but I have noted the remarks made in the publication to which the hon. Member refers.
    Mr. Jenkins:In view of this disturbing state, will the hon. Gentleman ask the Chancellor to bear in mind, in framing his next Budget, the advice given by the Opposition last year that increased initial allowances are much more helpful in this direction than general reductions in company taxation, a lot of which go in profits?
    Mr. Maudling: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will always bear in mind, if not accept, the advice of the Opposition.

    U.S.S.R. Gold (U.K. Receipts)
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total value of gold received by this country from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in the fourth quarter of 1953.
    Mr. Maudling:No, Sir. It is not the practice to disclose details of our gold transactions with particular countries.
    Mr. Wilson: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the figures are reputed to be about £35 million in the fourth quarter, and, as the Minister of State, Board of Trade, informed the House, two days ago, that we have imported £10 million worth of certain strategic materials from the Soviet Union in 1953, will not the hon. Gentleman recognise that trade with the Soviet Union is now one of our best gold earners—which is, of itself, a strategic material—and encourage exports to that area?
    Mr. Maudling:As my right hon. Friend has made clear on more than one occasion, we do consider that an expansion of trade with the Soviet Union in peaceful goods will be for the general benefit.
    Mr. Wilson:Since these figures involve not only gold but £10 million worth of other strategic materials, has not the time come to relax control of so-called strategic goods?
    Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman's argument merely strengthens the argument for the policy already adopted by the Government.

    Wholesalers (Tax Registration)
    Mr. Burdenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how many wholesalers have been refused

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    re-registration for Purchase Tax on changing their legal status;
    (2) how many new wholesalers have been refused Purchase Tax registration.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Burden:That is not good enough. Have such instructions been issued? Have some wholesale firms been refused registration—and in the case of a change of legal status re-registration—for Purchase Tax?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: My hon. Friend asked for certain figures. If I have not the figures I cannot, with the best will in the world, give them. I shall be happy to discuss the broader issue with him on any future occasion.
    Mr. Burden:In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Lords-in-Waiting Expenses (Reimbursement)
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what arrangements are made to reimburse Lords-in-Waiting when acting as Government spokesmenin the House of Lords for expenses incurred by them on official Government business.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Lords-in-Waiting, as Members of the Government, are entitled, if they request it, to receive secretarial assistance from Departmental staff for the discharge of their official duties. If these duties require them to travel they are also entitled, subject to the regulations which apply to Ministers generally, to travelling expenses and subsistence allowance at the appropriate rates.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the Minister aware that Lord Mancroft complained in the House of Lords on 19th January that, in order to deal with a Motion on behalf of the Government he had to travel to Wales at his own expense? Is that the policy of the Government?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The regulations are as I have described. I cannot really comment on a particular case without notice.

    Highland Games (Tax)
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamiltonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to the letter from the hon. Member for Inverness to the Financial Secretary, dated 19th October, 1953, in which the need for alleviating the heavy burden of entertainment tax on Highland Games was stressed, whether he has given this matter consideration and will now agree to remit this tax for Highland Games.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As I told my hon. Friend in my reply to the letter in question, my right hon. Friend will bear the position of these Games in mind when he reviews the Entertainments Duty in preparing his Budget.
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton:I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but would he bear in mind the exceptional importance of Highland Games to the small Highland communities, and that many local communities in the Highlands are considering closing down their Games because of the burden of entertainment tax?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:My right hon. Friend is fully aware of the position of the Games and is grateful to the noble Lord for his further information.

  MINISTRY OF FOOD (ABOLITION)
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Prime Minister whether the date on which the Ministry of Food will be wound up has been fixed; and what functions at present exercised by the Ministry of Food will be assigned to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): No, Sir. The question has not yet been settled.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton:Will the Prime Minister bear in mind the need for a Government agency other than the Ministry of Agriculture to protect consumer interests? Will he therefore reconsider the proposed abolition of the Ministry of Food, and announce the Government's final decision in the matter before he resigns the Premiership next May in favour of the Foreign Secretary?
  Mr. Peart:Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that because of the uncertainty of the Government on this matter, there is already uncertainty in the Government's long-term marketing proposals which has led to their failure to produce a proper marketing scheme for livestock, and that it may have serious effect upon our food production?
  The Prime Minister: The greatest care and thought will continue to be given to the subject.

  COMPANY CHAIRMEN'S STATEMENTS (TAX EXPENSES)
  Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how far it is the practice of the Inland Revenue to allow companies to charge, as a pre-taxation expense, any costs incurred in giving newspaper publicity to the annual statements of their chairmen.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Such expenditure is allowable as a deduction in computing trading profits for taxation proposes if it is incurred wholly and exclusively for the purposes of the trade.
  Mr. Jenkins: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with a position in which bank chairmen, in particular, buy for their generally highly sententious annual statements at least as much space as the Chancellor of the Exchequer is ever able to get for any speech of his own?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Comparisons are proverbially odious, but each question is looked at by the tax authorities on its own facts, and in the event of a dispute there are tribunals to decide it.

  PORTSMOUTH FOOTBALL CLUB (TAX)
  Brigadier Clarkeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the ill-effects of entertainment tax on the finances of the Portsmouth Football Clubs, and if he will reexamine this tax before the next Budget.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:My right hon. Friend has received no recent representations regarding the position of this particular club, but he has already undertaken to watch the incidence of the duty on football during the present season.
  Brigadier Clarke:Does my right hon. Friend realise that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken £10,000 more out of Portsmouth Football Club on reduced "gates," and that if it goes on, however skilful Portsmouth may be, they are bound to be defeated? They cannot even get a draw.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not think that my right hon. Friend is responsible for the success or failure of the playing activities of the Portsmouth Club. On a general issue, he has undertaken to watch the position, and I do not think that I can add anything to that.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the right hon. Member ask the Chancellor to remember that there is a strong feeling against the tax on sport, and that the case for taking it off other games is just as strong as it was for taking it off cricket?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Those are just the sort of issues that fall for consideration at the appropriate time.
  Mr. Peart:When considering this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman particularly bear in mind the small professional clubs in the Third Division, and the important Rugby League clubs in the north of England?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:My recollecton is that the position of those types of clubs were specifically mentioned during the debate on the Finance Bill last year, when an undertaking was given that their position would be specially watched.

  FLOOR TILES (TAX)
  Brigadier Clarkeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he has imposed Purchase Tax of 25 per cent. on floor tiles, in view of the fact that such a tax will increase the cost of houses.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on Thursday, 28th January, to my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Cooper-Key).
  Brigadier Clarke:My right hon. Friend has confused me a little. I do not know what answer he gave. As, by this tax on tiles, he is raising the price of a house by £4 to £8, will he take it off?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I suggest that my hon. and gallant Friend reads my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings.

  TATE GALLERY TRUST (ADMINISTRATION)
  Mr. Edelmanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that unauthorised purchases have been made by the director of the Tate Gallery, and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have seen the statement issued by the Trustees of the Tate Gallery on 26th January relating to purchases in recent years of works which were not fully within the terms of the particular Trust funds out of which they were bought. These purchases were made onthe authority of the Trustees, and not of the Director, as the hon. Member's Question might suggest. The statement indicated that the Trustees had made arrangements to rectify the position. The administration of these Trust funds is the responsibility of the Trustees.
  Mr. Edelman:Is it not the case that it is not long since the Chancellor of the Exchequer was himself obliged to reprimand the Director of the Tate Gallery for certain irregularities in the conduct of the Gallery? Is it not also the case that the new irregularities now exposed have caused widespread public disquiet? In those circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman consult his right hon. Friend with a view to the holding of an inquiry into the general conduct and administration of the TateGallery, which does depend upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree that the administration of great national institutions like this is a matter of very proper concern, but if the hon. Gentleman will study the statement which has been made he will see that the Trustees are taking most vigorous action to put right errors which appear to have occurred over a good many years. I think that in the circumstances they should be allowed to get on with their job.
  Mr. Wyatt: Is not the Minister aware that these irregularities were first strongly denied by the Trustees of the Gallery, and that they were only brought out by
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  letters in "The Times" and the "Spectator"? As the Trustees cannot, apparently, be trusted to administer private bequests to the Gallery, would it not be as well if the Government were to withdraw that part of the National Art Collections Bill which will give them the power to sell pictures which belong to the Gallery as and when they think fit?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I hopethe hon. Gentleman will not seek to saddle the present Trustees with the responsibility for transactions which took place during the time of their predecessors. I think the House can be reassured that the fact that the Trustees have authorised a careful scrutiny of the arrangements of each Trust, with the assistance of the professional advisers of each Trust, is an indication that they are just as anxious as the hon. Member to get this thing right.
  Mr. Edelman:In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Attlee:May I ask the Lord Privy Seal if he will state the business for next week.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 8TH FEBRUARY—Consideration of the Report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries (House of Commons Paper No. 235, 1953), which will arise on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Second Reading: Royal Irish Constabulary (Widows' Pensions) Bill.
Committee stage: Money Resolution.
TUESDAY, 9TH FEBRUARY—Motion to approve Purchase Tax (No. 1) Order, until 7 o'clock.
Committee and remaining stages: Merchant Shipping Bill; National Museum of Antiquities of Scotland Bill [Lords].
WEDNESDAY, 10TH FEBRUARY—Committee stage: Hill Fanning Bill, which it is hoped to obtain by about 7 o'clock.
Afterwards, there will be an opportunity to debate the Japanese Trade Agreement.
THURSDAY, 11TH FEBRUARY—Debate on Opposition Motion relating to Take-Over Bids, until about 7 o'clock.
Second Reading: Civil Defence (Electricity Undertakings) Bill.
Committee stage: Money Resolution.
Motion to approve Draft Civil Defence (Gas Undertakers) Regulations.
FRIDAY, 12TH FEBRUARY—Private Members' Bills.
Mr. Attlee: On Wednesday's business, the Opposition propose to put down a Motion on the subject of the Japanese Trade Agreement.

MENTAL ILLNESS AND DEFICIENCY (ROYAL COMMISSION MEMBERSHIP)
The Prime Minister: The Queen has been pleased to approve the appointment of the following members of the Royal Commission to inquire into the certification and detention of mental patients:
Mrs. E. D. Adrian.
Mr. Claude Bartlett.
The hon. Lady the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock).
Sir Walter Russell Brain, D.M., P.R.C.P.
The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for York (Mr. Hylton-Foster). Mr. Richard Meredith Jackson, LL.D.
Sir Cecil Oakes, C.B.E.
Dr. Thomas Percy Rees, O.B.E., M.D., M.R.C.P., D.P.M.
Dr. David Howell Hugh Thomas, M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., D.P.M.
Dr. John Greenwood Wilson, M.D., F.R.C.P., D.P.H.
As has already been announced, Lord Percy of Newcastle will be Chairman of the Commission.

RAW COTTON COMMISSION (STAFF COMPENSATION)
Mr. P. Thorneycroft:With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement on a matter raised by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) in a Private Notice Question on Tuesday last concerning the payment of compensation to redundant employeesof the Raw Cotton Commission. I have now had an opportunity of looking into this matter and find that the Raw Cotton
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Commission has paid sums by way of compensation for loss of office to members of its staff who have been discharged on redundancy, and that such sums have been paid by the Commission in advance of the receipt of proper authority.
While it would no doubt be the wish of everybody concerned, and not least of the hon. Lady who raised the question, that these former members of the Commission's staff should be properly compensated for loss of office, nothing could excuse payment in advance of authority.
Certain arrangements had been proposed for meeting the case of members of the staff who had been dismissed some months ago, and to whom no compensation had yet been paid. These arrangements, which had been notified to the Raw Cotton Commission and had been announced by me, after consultation with my noble Friend the Minister of Materials, and with the approval of the Treasury, in Standing Committee upstairs, would have involved the making of an advance from the Civil Contingencies Fund. The Commission was informed that payments could not be made until proper authority had been given. I regret that the Commission did not wait to receive this authority.
In the circumstances, I have considered what should now be done. I am advised that the proper course is to move a suitable Amendment to the Bill to give retrospective authority for the payments which have been made. This I propose to do and the Amendment will, of course, be debatable.
Mrs. Braddock:I thank the President for the statement he has made. May I ask him three questions. First, how did it come about that he had no knowledge of the fact that money had been paid without authority; secondly, will he tell the House the amount of money that has been paid in such a manner; and, thirdly, in what way does he intend to have this Amendment debated, in view of the fact that the Committee stage of the Cotton Bill is now finished? Does he intend to remit it back to Standing Committee A? If not, what method does he intend to use to have the Amendment debated?
Mr. Thorneycroft: With regard to the first question, I had no knowledge because I have given no authority. As to

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the second, the sum involved is approximately £14,000, and, as to the third, an Amendment will be sought to be put down for the next stage of the Bill.
Mr. H. Wilson:Has the right hon. Gentleman not been in touch with the Raw Cotton Commission all this time? After all, Liverpoolis on the telephone. Must the right hon. Gentleman rely on my hon. Friend, other Liverpool Members and myself to tell him what is happening in his own statutory board? Furthermore, this is not the first but the second case in which the decision of Parliament has been anticipated in connection with the Cotton Bill. I shall be out of order if I go into details, because I cannot say what has happened in a Standing Committee, but, since this is the second occasion during the past few months on which the Raw Cotton Commission has anticipated consideration by Parliament, will the right hon. Gentleman indicate what hon. Members can do to make certain that they can debate their rights under the Bill? Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether it is nota fact that when we come to the Report stage any hon. Member wishing to move Amendments to alter the basis of compensation will find that the situation has been utterly prejudiced by the payments which have been made?
Mr. Thorneycroft: The payments which have been made will not prejudice any decision as to the eventual scheme that is drawn up. The question of debate is not entirely for me but, as I said, the proper course here, clearly, is to put down an Amendment, which will be debatable, and upon which these matters can be raised. As to my knowledge of this matter, I have already assured the House that I had no knowledge of it, because it was done without my authority, and the Raw Cotton Commission has expressed its regret to me.
Mr. H. Morrison: It is clear that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) is to be congratulated on having brought this irregularity to light in the House. Does not this situation reveal that there is not particularly bright administration under the righthon. Gentleman's Presidency of the Board of Trade? Should not this matter have been treated rather more seriously
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than it has been by the right hon. Gentleman? Is he proposing—as is usual in cases of irregularity—not to bring in an Amendment to the Bill which has been going through the Committee upstairs, but to bring in an indemnity Bill and, in bringing it in, to make proper apologies to the House?—which he has not done.
I ask him seriously to consider whether he ought not to bring in an indemnity Bill, instead of a retrospective provision on the Report stage, to deal with illegal expenditure which, admittedly, has already been incurred. If this is done by means of the Bill, to which I object because I think there ought to be an indemnity Bill, will the right hon. Gentleman not have to recommit the Bill and get another Money Resolution? I ask him, however, to bring in an indemnity Bill.
Mr. Thorneycroft: I thought I had made it perfectly plain that I do regard this as a serious matter. It is always a serious matter if public funds are paid out without the proper authority of the House of Commons. The Raw Cotton Commission has frankly stated to me that it was in error in this matter. It is a matter for regret that it has occurred. Iam advised, for I have taken advice on this point, that the proper course in these circumstances is to move an Amendment at the next stage of the Bill. As to the suggestions which the right hon. Gentleman has made, I shall, of course, give them proper consideration.
Mr. S. Silverman:I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman about his proposed remedy, but, first of all, would he tell the House out of what moneys the Raw Cotton Commission made these payments? So far as his proposal for putting the matter right is concerned, how can we, without amending the Money Resolution or having a new Money Resolution, do it? May I remind him, without being too long about it, that under the Bill, if it ever becomes law, there are three contingencies which have to be satisfied before any money can be paid at all? One is that the proper authority has to decide to dissolve the Commission; secondly, people have to prove they have lost their offices by reason of that; and thirdly, we can only compensate people who have lost theiroffices three months after the passing of the necessary affirmative Resolution in this House. How can

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it be possible, in these circumstances, to justify retrospectively moneys which have already been paid, prior to the occurrence of any of these, which would make the money payable at all?
Mr. Thorneycroft:The moneys were paid by the Raw Cotton Commission out of its own revenues. With regard to the Amendment, it will, of course, not be for me to say what is in order or out of order. If the Amendment isout of order it will be impossible to table it, but I am informed that it would be possible to table an Amendment to the Bill upon the next stage. All these matters will be debatable, of course, when that Amendment is discussed.
Mr. Attlee: Has not the right hon. Gentleman inquired as to whether a new Money Resolution will be needed or not?
Mr. Thorneycroft: I understand that a new Money Resolution would not be necessary.
Sir W. Fletcher:In view of the fact that the average loss during the last two years of the activities of the Raw Cotton Commission was £25 million a year, is it not rather straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel to have all this high indignation about £14,000, which is to be put right—bearing in mind the two losses of £25 million a year?
Mr. Lee:On a point of order. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that I asked the other day about this matter, and whether we should be prejudiced at a later stage in moving Amendments. I want to explain it so that you will understand my point. We are seeking to increase the payments to certain types of operatives working for the Raw Cotton Commission. The fact that some moneys have now been paid out to higher scale people will mean that we cannot now possibly move Amendments to increase the moneys as we should wish without going above the sum provided for by the Money Resolution. Could you advise us how, in these circumstances, it is possible for those who take that view to move Amendments to increase the amount for certain peopleworking for the Raw Cotton Commission and still keep within the Money Resolu-
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tion? Will it not be necessary, as my right hon. Friend has just pointed out, to have a new Money Resolution?
Mr. Speaker: That may well be so. Frankly, I do not know enoughabout this to be able to give an answer in advance, but, of course, any suggestion about the future stages of the Bill will receive my scrutiny to ensure that the correct procedure and the rights of the House are maintained. Such a course will be adopted. I cannot at the moment say what it will be because I do not know enough.
Mr. H. Morrison:The Prime Minister has heard these interchanges. He, as we hope and believe and, I think, know, would wish the House to be treated fairly in this matter. Will he be good enough, in consultation with the President of the Board of Trade, to consider whether or not there should be an indemnity Bill? I do not expect him to commit himself now, though if he had been prepared perhaps he could have done so, but would he not look into it with the President of the Board of Trade?
The amount of money involved is not of primary importance. It is the principle that is involved, in order that Parliament may be treated properly and in the customary fashion about this matter, instead of having retrospective legislation incidental to a Bill that has now passed through Committee. I am only asking that the Prime Minister should be good enough to look into it with the President of the Board of Trade.
The Prime Minister: I will certainly discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend.
Sir H. Williams Sir H. Williams rose—
Mr. Speaker: I think there is to be further legislation. Whatever form it may take we can discuss the matter when it is before us.

NEW MEMBER SWORN
Lieutenant Thomas Lascelles Iremonger, R.N.V.R., for Ilford, North.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS ON GOING INTO COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
SCHOOLS (SIZE OF CLASSES)
Mr. Morley: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the need for a reduction in the size of classes in the schools under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Education, and move a Resolution.
TROOPS, SUEZ CANAL ZONE (ACCOMMODATION)
Mrs. Castle: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the living conditions of the troops in the Canal Zone in Egypt, and move a Resolution.
SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRY
Mr. Nicholson: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates, I shallcall attention to the importance of the shipbuilding industry, and move a Resolution.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCE
Mr. E. Fletcher:I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the financial relations between local government and the Exchequer, and move a Resolution.
AIRFIELDS (AGRICULTURAL USE)
Mr. G. Williams: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the continuing need for making the fullest agricultural use of airfields within reasonable aircraft safety limits, and move a Resolution.
BRITISH ARMY (TECHNICAL LIAISON)
Mr. Arbuthnot:I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the need for close collaboration and interchange between technical and regimental officers in the Army in order to produce the maximum efficiency in the Service, and move a Resolution.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS ON GOING INTO COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
  ROYAL NAVY (LOWER DECK PROMOTIONS)
  Miss Herbison: I begto give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates, I shall draw attention to the need for more promotion from the lower deck, and move a Resolution.
  ROYAL NAVY (LOWER DECK PROMOTIONS)
    HOSPITAL PATIENTS (CARE)
    Sir F. Messer: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the general care of patients in hospital, and move a Resolution.
    ROYAL AIR FORCE (FLYING TRAINING)
    Mr. Glover: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the need for ensuring that methods of flying training in the Royal Air Force keep pace with the development of new types of aircraft and equipment, and move a Resolution.
    COMMONWEALTH (CAPITAL INVESTMENT)
    Mr. Russell: I begto give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall draw attention to the need for more capital investment in the Commonwealth, and move a Resolution.
    ROYAL AIR FORCE (MOBILITY)
    Mr. Chetwynd: I have been asked to speak for my hon. Friend the Member for Abertillery (Rev. Ll. Williams), who cannot be here. I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, he will call attention to the need for greater mobility of the Royal Air Force, and move a Resolution.
    CIVIL TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton:I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall draw attention to the need for an adequate fleet of civil transport aircraft, and move a Resolution.

    ROYAL NAVY (RECRUITING PUBLICITY)
    Mr. J. Rodgers:I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply

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    on the Navy Estimates, I shall call attention to the need for recruiting publicity for the Royal Navy, and move a Resolution.

    NATIONAL SERVICE
    Mr. Proctor: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the need for accepting a realistic view of National Service, for considering a reduction in the period of service, and for moving for a House of Commons inquiry into the whole question of National Service, especially upon the waste of manpower in the Army, and move a Resolution.

    MEMBER'S LETTER TO NEWSPAPER (COMPLAINT OF PRIVILEGE)
    Mr. S. Silverman: I desire to call your attention, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House to a matter which may be a contempt of Parliament. It arises in connection with the proceedings of Standing Committee A, which until this morning, when it concluded its Sittings, was dealing with the Cotton Bill. It was not a matter which arose in the course of the Committee, but in connection with its proceedings, and it was therefore thought proper to consult both the Chairman of that Committee in the Committee and yourself, Mr. Speaker, as to whether the Committee or the House itself was the proper forum in which to make the complaint. It seems to be agreed that the proper forum is the House, and I therefore make my representation to you. I have given notice to the hon. Baronet the Member for Middleton and Prestwich(Sir J. Barlow) so that he may, if he wishes, make any explanation to the House that he thinks fit.
    The matter complained of is a letter contained in the correspondence columns of the "Manchester Guardian" for yesterday, 3rd February. It is headed "The Cotton Bill" and is signed, or purports to be signed, by the hon. Baronet. I need not trouble the Committee—
    Sir H. Butcher: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Any complaints of Privilege should be brought to the knowledge of the House at the earliest possible moment; that is the Ruling of yourself
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    and your predecessors. I submit that, in time, a matter of Privilege should be raised immediately, and that yesterday was the proper day for so doing in this matter.
    Mr. Speaker: I shall deal with that matter when I have heard the hon. Member's complaint.
    Mr. Silverman:These are the parts of the document to which I desire to draw attention. In the second paragraph, after referring to the Cotton Bill—now the Cotton Act—of 1947, and the numberof Clauses and the number of days it took, the hon. Baronet goes on to say:
    "The present Bill consists of only six Clauses and it has already taken up nine days lasting over a period of nearly two months. Clause 4 has not yet been completed."
    Having said that, he then goes on:
    "I have taken part in many Standing Committees since 1945, but I have never seen such delaying tactics nor heard so many irrelevant and irresponsible speeches on the part of the Opposition. Such methods are a great disservice to the cotton industry."
    I say nothing whatever about the use of the word "irresponsible," because I apprehend that that means no more than that the speeches were delivered by the hon. Member's political opponents and that it is merely a political epithet and nothing else. But the rest of the matter complained of appears to me to make three very serious and improper charges. One is that Members of the Committee were guilty not merely of irrelevance—we are all guilty sometimes of irrelevance—but guilty of persistent irrelevance, which has always been held to be an unparliamentary accusation.
    The second charge is not merely that, but that a group of Members in the Committee engaged in a concerted endeavour—a kind of conspiracy—by persistent irrelevance to delay the progress of the Bill. The third charge which, I submit, is implied is the gravest of all. If it were true that a group of Members had over a period of two months been able to make a concerted manoeuvre of delay by means of organised persistent irrelevance, that could not possibly be done without, at the worst, the acquiescence or, at the best, the incompetence of the hon. Member—
    Major Anstruther-Gray: On a point of order. I wonder whether you, Mr. Speaker, would consider dealing with the

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    point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Sir H. Butcher), the point being that a newspaper report should be brought forward at the earliest possible opportunity unless there are exceptional circumstances. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has given us no cause to understand that there are exceptional circumstances and I invite you, Sir, to give your Ruling forthwith.
    Mr. Speaker: In order to satisfy the House on this matter, I will explain what happened. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), together with the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), came to see me last night about this matter. The passage of which they complained was in the "Manchester Guardian."I am afraid that, in my ignorance, I thought that this was a provincial newspaper which did not appear in London in the morning. Consequently I did not raise then and there, as I would have done otherwise, when the hon. Members came to see me the question of the time of their complaint. I let them go without raising it, and I feel that I may have, quite unconsciously, misled them into the idea that this Rule did not exist or did not apply in this case. Therefore, I feel myself in decency bound to hear the complaint, because otherwise I might be thought guilty by them of having misled them unconsciously.
    I do warn the House on this matter that I now realise that this is a newspaper that does appear at the same time as other newspapers in London in the morning, and on any future occasion I shall enforce the Rule strictly that the matter, as the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Sir H. Butcher) said, must be raised on that day if it is a morning newspaper.
    Mr. Silverman:I was perfectly prepared to raise the matter yesterday and I came to see you, Mr. Speaker, with the intention of doing so if, in your opinion, this House was the proper forum and not the Committee.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member came to see me a few minutes before eight o'clock last night. It would in any case have been too late to raise it that day.
    Mr. Wigg: On a point of order. On a previous occasion, Mr. Speaker, I came to you on a matter of this kind, and you raised no objection on that occasion;
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    indeed, I believe you then asked the Attorney-General to get information, which he did, and which influenced you the next morning. You informed me on that occasion that you had no objection to the fact that I had raised the matter with you late at night, and you then allowed me to raise it the next morning.
    Mr. Speaker: I think that was not a case in which publication in a newspaper was directly involved. The matter which the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) raised was on something quite different. It is not at all parallel with the present case. I think that, as an hon. Member of this House is involved in this matter and is being complained against, we ought to hear this matter and dispose of it.
    Mr. Silverman:I came to see you, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the matter as soon as I knew of the publication. One cannot know of it earlier than the day on which it is published.
    If I may conclude the statement which I was making, I say that the third and much the gravest matter involved in the letter is this. If it were true that an organised group of Members were able for over two months and nine sittings of the Committee to delay the progress of a Bill by organised, concerted, persistent irrelevancies, that could only be done either with the acquiescence of the Chairman or by reason of his negligence and incompetence. Therefore, the charge implied, having regard to the length of time and the concerted nature of the alleged offence, must have involved not merely the Chairman's previous conduct of the proceedings in the Committee, but must have been a direct attempt to intimidate him in his future conduct of the proceedings of that Committee.
    When the hon. Baronet wrote the letter, he did not know that the Committee was going to be over. If he had had patience to wait 24 hours, it would not have been necessary for him to write the letter at all. I submit that there are ample precedents today that such a charge, whether made directly or by implication, is in fact grossly improper and an abuse of the Privileges of the House.
    Mr. Speaker: Will the hon. Member bring the newspaper to the Table?
    Copy of newspaper handed in.
    Mr. Speaker:The passage complained of has been read, and I will not ask the Clerk to read it again. The hon. Member complains of this letter on three grounds. First, that it asserts that there was persistent irrelevance in the Committee and, in fact, obstruction. I am bound to say that for one hon. Member to accuse another hon. Member of obstruction is not out of order. The matter is dealt with on page 440 of Erskine May, at the top of that page, and there is a footnote giving the authorities and Rulings for that statement in the text. I have personally consulted the authorities and Rulings and find that they support the text fully.
    The second point the hon. Member raises is that in some way the Chair is involved in this in that this conduct could not have occurred without some connivance or lack of duty on the part of the Chair. I do not myself take that view of the passage. The Chairman is bound by Standing Order No. 20 to call to order any hon. Member who is guilty of persistent irrelevance, but this passage of which the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) complains does not accuse any one Member of being guilty of persistent irrelevance, and therefore it is not implied that the Chairman of that Committee failed in his duty to check that Member. All it says is that the speeches as a whole of the Opposition were irrelevant and irresponsible. I cannot find that that in any way implies or suggests any lack of duty on the part of the Chairman of the Committee, and I therefore see no breach of Privilege in this at all.
    It is not for me finally to pronounce on the matter; it is a matter for the House itself, which is the guardian of its own Privileges. My duty is only to say whether I believe there is a prima facie case or not, so as to give this matter precedence over the Orders of the Day. I am bound to say that I cannot find evidence in this case of a prima facie breach of Privilege, and I must so rule.
    Mr. Silverman: May I, with respect, draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that in addressing your mind to the points which I made, you suggested that there were two. In fact, there were three. The middle point, which you omitted, is, I submit with respect, a vital point. While it is no doubt true that to accuse an hon.
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    Member of obstruction or of irrelevance is not of itself out of order, I think it is clear that an accusation of persistent irrelevance would be out of order.
    My second point was that if you read the second paragraph of the hon. Baronet's letter in conjunction with that part of the third paragraph which I read out, it is perfectly clear that what he is saying is that over a period of two months there was more irrelevance than he had ever known in nine years. If that is not a charge of persistent irrelevance, it is very difficult to attach any ordinary meaning to ordinary words.
    My submission about the Chair was not that the charge was that the Chairman failed to pull up some individual Member now andagain for irrelevance, but that he had permitted a conspiracy for two months on the part of Members of the Committee to defy his authority and to prevent the Committee from getting on with its business. If that can be said with impunity, there is an end to all respect for all Chairmen in all the Committees.
    Mr. Speaker: I am bound to say that I do not take the hon. Member's view. What the letter says is this:
    "I have taken part in many Standing Committees since 1945, but I have never seen such delaying tactics nor heard so many irrelevant and irresponsible speeches on the part of the Opposition."
    That is the sort of charge which is frequently made. I have heard it made many times on both sides of the House, and no one has ever taken exception to it. I do not think it in any way reflects on the Chairman. I myself find it very difficult indeed sometimes to check irrelevance in debate, and I am sure every Chairman is in that difficulty. The difficulty about irrelevancy is that the Chairman has to be patient. It cannot be expected that every hon. Member in the House can speak with an equal degree of cogency. The Chairman must wait and see what the argument is.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Since the phrase used is that of "delaying tactics," I submit, with all respect, that that implies motives on the part of some 20 Members of the Standing Committee. As, if the accusation were true, the tactics must have been

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    deliberately decided it would impute to us a decision to delay the Bill. It would surely have been the duty of the Chairman of that Committee to prevent the use of those delaying tactics. My hon. Friend is surely right, therefore, in suggesting that this is a reflection on the conduct of the Chairman of that Committee.
    Mr. Speaker: I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman, but I must say that my opinion is unchanged. I think the common sense of the position is that an Opposition is entitled to use legitimate means of delaying the passage of legislation to which it objects. For that reason the Government are armed with certain methods of dealing with delaying tactics. I think we must not be too thin-skinned about this.
    Miss Ward:Might we not be grateful to the hon. Baronet, because has not his letter succeeded in bringing the proceedings of the Committee to an end?
    Mr. Speaker: I know nothing about that.
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    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.]

    COMMONWEALTH ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
    4.15 p.m.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): I should like, first of all, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, to say how much we welcome the opportunity of this debate. I know of no general panorama or subject on which constructive criticism, from whichever side of the House it comes, will be more valuable, and I therefore hope that hon. Members who have various points of view and different feelings about these matters will make their contributions. I under-take that their contributions will be studied with a view to carrying forward the progress which we have made together in the Commonwealth and sterling area in the past two years
    On behalf of the Government, I should like to extend the thanks of our own delegation to the Australian Government for their hospitality at Sydney, to the Prime Minister of Australia for taking the chair with such wisdom, to the secretariat provided by the Australians—which was in every way as efficient as is our own in this country—and to the many people who took part in the success of the Conference.
    Having asked hon. Members to make their contributions, I will endeavour to sum up for the benefit of the House some of the matters which we discussed. I promise the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) that I will read out no communiqué. In fact, I shall be somewhat extempore. I hope he will do the same, because on reading an article of his in "The New Commonwealth,"to which I will refer, I found a strange affinity of language between that article and the communiqué which we issued after the Commonwealth Conference. Of course, it is impossible with accuracy to state these somewhat difficult subjects in the prose of Milton or the verse of Shakespeare. I may say, without betraying any secrets, that one or two of those present, including the Prime Minister of Australia and the Indian Finance Minister, two great students of English, did their best to improve the language of the communiqué.

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    The Sydney Conference dealt with some subjects of very great importance to us all. The first was world trade, with which I propose to deal, including the outlook in America; the second was the outlook for the balance of payments; the third was the development of Commonwealth resources; and the fourth was the general long-term policy on which we are setting out together and which involves all these fascinating questions of the freeing of trade and the use of preferences.
    I hope to deal with these matters, but first I must point out that the Conference did not meet in an atmosphere of crisis. That is perhaps why some right hon. and hon. Members were almost disappointed that our results were not more sensational. The fact is that we have been successful, and success very often speaks for itself without sensation. It is particularly valuable in these financial and economic matters to be able to report a normal interchange, an absolute unity and complete agreement on all matters. That may be dull but it is at least valuable to the working people and others in all our countries.
    Let me take three tests, quite shortly, ofwhat our success has been, particularly over the past year—first, the state of the reserves; secondly, the position of sterling; and thirdly, the very definite efforts made by the countries concerned to fortify and improve their own internal position. Taking the reserves as the first point, the sterling area deficit in 1951–52 amounted to £1,000 million. Its surplus by mid-1952–53 was over £400 million. It is not a bad achievement to turn a deficit of £1,000 million into a surplus of over £400 million.
    Further, if we look at the level of reserves at mid-June, 1952, shortly after my first Budget, we find that they stood at £600 million. We find that they rose steadily thereafter—on 31st December,1952, £659 million; on 30th June, 1953, £845 million; on 31st December, 1953, £899 million; and now, at the end of January, 1954, £908 million. That also may be a little dull but it is extremely successful. It is on that sort of basis that the future prosperity, not only of this island but of the Commonwealth, depends. I will say at once that this is not a high enough level for our reserves for the sterling area. We must go on. It is not even as high as the level in the
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    middle of 1951. We still have a great deal to do, but I think this is a notable advance and we must somehow strive to maintain it.
    The second test of success comes in examining the position of sterling throughout 1953, and this, I think, is quite a definite achievement on behalf of the sterling area. The spot pound-dollar rate stood above parity the whole time; and not only did our sterling stand high in the markets of the world, but others are now wanting to buy sterling for gold or dollars. The position this Government found when they came to power was that sterling was definitely weaker than the dollar, but that cannot now be said, looking at it from the point of view of world demand. That is a further mark of confidence in our policy.
    Further—and this, I think, is a very remarkable improvement for us all—the black market rate, as it is called, which was standing at a level very much below the ordinary spot rate for sterling, has moved up and recently, for the first time since the last world war, has come within the range of dollars 2·73/2·82, and at times has moved right up to the ordinary rate for sterling. This shows that our currency is not in such danger of being undermined, in that the black market rate is not so far apart from the ordinary rate as it was when we assumed power and adopted our policies. These points are naturally, therefore, the cause of some satisfaction to the sterling area as a whole.
    A third point of satisfaction was the manner in which the countries concerned had tackled their internal policies, and I am sure the House will be at one with me if I pay one or two quick compliments to one or two countries and their Finance Ministers. Take the position of Pakistan, which has had an absolute crisis in its food supplies and has had very great difficulty with its balance of payments. It lost no less than 40 per cent. of its external income. Any country doing that is in a difficult way. Despite that, Mr. Mohammed Ali, the Finance Minister, and the Government of Pakistan have now brought their country back to within a measurable reach of solvency and happiness again, while they have restored the food position or are beginning to restore it completely. They have done this by the most severe import restrictions which are cutting down on their own as much as on other people's trade.

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    I want to draw a moral from this business of countries within the Commonwealth putting on import restrictions. We have had it before in the case of Australia, but now the position is very much easier, and I hope it will get easier still. I want to make it quite clear that every one of those countries, by their internal policies, affects the reserves and the future of the sterling area. The people walking about the streets of this city or the streets of Leeds or the streets of Manchester or the citizens of Scotland are as much affected by a collapse in the internal affairs of one of the members of the area as they would be by mismanagement here. Therefore, we should pay tribute when strict remedies are taken successfully by any Government.
    In the case of India, I think the most remarkable feature that I noticed, apart from their growing armed and cultural strength, which I was able to witness in a most impressive manner on Republic Day, was their five-year plan, of which I was able to see something. I was able to discuss the matter with their excellent Finance Minister, Mr. Chintaman Deshmukh, and I thought that a most remarkable factor about India's economy was that she has cured inflation. Moreover, she is actually not utilising her usable, available sterling balances even for the purposes of development. If she needs reserves for development purposes, I do not anticipate that she will have to go necessarily to the markets, for she has these reserves there. There again is another country which has taken most strict measures.
    I do not want to go through all the countries because I might cause a little jealousy between one and another. But I can sum them up by saying that Australia and New Zealand have been able to restore the position of their internal economy. In the case of Australia, it must be remembered that it has had seven to eight good years without a drought, and this has maintained not only the price but also the quality of wool. In the sterling area we have got to watch not only the internal finances of these countries. We have also got to watch the climate, the monsoons, and the effect that they may have on the economy.
    In the case of Australia, its rapid recovery means that they are developing
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    vast resources of uranium and have found oil in Western Australia. Therefore, I think the remark that I made when leaving that very great and independent country still holds, that we are now looking at Australia unlimited, a country of unlimited strength and unlimited possibilities in the future.
    The position in South Africa has been fortified by a very strong budget, and I should like to pay tribute to the arrangements under which we were able to earn from South Africa this last year a record amount of gold, which has been of very great value to our gold and dollar reserves. The new Finance Minister of the Central African Federation was able to attend our meetings. He had only been appointed a week, but I can assure the House that he complained very much more about the language we used in our discussions than did hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. He is a good Scot who has taken quickly to this position of Finance Minister, and he talked more commonsense than anybody else.
    The position inCeylon has been considerably fortified by the actions of her new Government, but, as the House will remember, Ceylon has been affected by the price of rubber and rice. We looked into the question of the future development programme of Ceylon with a view to helping with the rice situation. Fortunately, the rice position in the other countries of Asia is much better, and I trust we shall be able to do something to help the position in Ceylon.
    No view of the sterling area would be complete without some mention of the very great contribution made by the Colonial Dependencies to our balance of payments. When we think of it, it is a staggering sum that they contribute. We are doing our best through Colonial Development and Welfare Funds and other sources to develop the resources of the Colonies. This debate does not hinge on other constitutional matters that have been debated, but it is the intention of the Administrations of the sterling area as a whole to see that the Colonies are developed in the way that is in the interests of their own people and in the interests of the general health and well-being of the area to which they belong.
    On this occasion I will not say a great deal about the United Kingdom's internal economy, because I do not doubt we

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    shall have further opportunities of debating that in detail. But I will say this, that the manner in which we have been able to have expansion without returning to the acute dangers of inflation; the way we have been able to reach a record production in the history of these islands; and the manner in which we have been able to maintain full employment while at the same time freeing markets and opening up our sources of supply, has been a source of strength, not only to our people and their standard of living, but,as has been recognised, a source of strength to the sterling area as a whole.
    I would say to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that, when they criticise our economic policy, I think they underestimate the social purpose which has lain behind it. They underestimate the manner in which we have attempted to maintain full employment, to buy where we can cheaply the best food and raw materials we so much need for our people. That is the general purpose which has lain behind the success of the last two years. However, I shall have opportunities of talking about that on other occasions. Just now the only point I wish to make is that our economy is infinitely more flexible and infinitely stronger. While there are many things to be put right, especially our overseas export earnings, which are vital to our future and that of the sterling area, we have got to remember that we have made considerable strides in the course of the last two years.
    We decided that this outlook of sombre confidence, as seen by the FinanceMinisters, depended upon two main things. One is the assessment which is made of the future of the world economy and the question of a recession or a down-turn in the economy of another country; and the availability of credit in the event of a recession and such international matters. The other factor on which our confidence depends is the way in which this country and the sterling area are ready to make fresh and renewed efforts to improve and build on the position of comparative safety which we have nowreached.
    Let me examine the question of world trade. The hon. Member opposite who asked a Question on this subject the other day will be interested. When we look at world trade we think naturally of the preponderance of the United States
    582
    economy. We in Sydney had the opportunity of the latest facts, so far as we could get them, on the subject of the United States position. But since then, that judgment which we made after very close analysis, with the aid of the Canadian Finance Minister whose contribution was of the maximum importance to the other members of the sterling area, has been confirmed by the Economic Report of the President of which I must have in my hand one of the first copies available in this country.
    This is a most impressive document which gives a clear picture of the performance of the American economy in the last year. It also sets out the various measures which are proposed by the Economic Advisers to deal with the possibilities of down-turn or, the view they rather prefer, the possibilities of growth and expansion in the economy. It confirms absolutely the judgment that we made at Sydney. The Report of the President's Economic Advisers says that America:
    "…must not only join with other nations but should be prepared to lead them in solving the problems of international trade and currency."
    That is in tune with the President's own remarks and the trend of the Randall Commission's Report. The Economic Report recognises that, prior to the end of the year, there was some down-turn in American activity, and this has probably been one of the factors which has caused our exports to the United States to be 10 per cent. less in the fourth quarter of last year than they were in the third. I hope that the House will notice this point, because we are trying to make an assessment this afternoon of exactly how difficult or how possible conditions will be in the coming year.
    I should like to add to that point that the index of production in the United States fell to 128 in December. It was 130 in November and 137 in July last. The conclusion I want the House to draw from these figures—both as to the effect on our exports and the decrease in the index—is that in fact this so-called recession, down-turn, or whatever one calls it, has already started, and that we are already beginning to pass through it.
    If there is any doubt about that assessment, I should like to quote the concluding words of this Economic Report

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    which is signed by the President and which was presented to Congress. The concluding words say:
    "The minor readjustment"—
    which they call this—
    "under way since mid-1953 is likely soon to come to a close, especially if the recommendations of the Administration are adopted. These recommendations, like the analysis of the current situation on which they are based, envision a sustained improvement in American living standards and a broadly expanding economy."
    The Report concludes by saying that there is every reason for confidence that their system of individual enterprise, one of the wonders of the world, will continue to be a producer of ever-increasing wealth and widely diffused well-being.
    The point I wish the House to note is that the minor readjustment, in the view of the Economic Advisers, has already started and is likely soon to come to a close. Let us hope that that may be so. If it be so, it is, I think, extremely satisfactory, both from the point of view of the sterling area and the United Kingdom, that we should have held the position of the reserves, that indeed we should have increased the reserves, despite the payment of the American and Canadian debts at the end of the year which amount to a very substantial sum.
    I think that this gives every cause for confidence that, compared with 1949, the Governments concerned, not only in this country but elsewhere, are doing their best to hold the situation. But the Report very rightly says that the holding of this situation—and I want hon. Gentlemen opposite to note that I only say that I hope this tobe correct—depends upon what action is taken by the various Governments. In the Report it is stated that the American Government intend to adopt certain policies towards house building, agriculture and the social security system and towards the planning of public works. This confirms what we said at Sydney—that we cannot lay down exactly how to deal with a recession before it comes but we have to be ready with preventive action; that we must avoid what they call taking up general or doctrinaire positions without seeing what is really going to happen; that we must pursue an expansionist policy, a policy which this Government believes in; and that we must be ready to act vigorously in case of need.
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    When they go on to mention the various credit controls, the methods of debt management administered by the Federal Reserve and the Treasury, the House will see that the Report, which I think is a most responsible one, gives some indication that the American Government—whether this down-turnis on the way to improvement or not—are ready to take the necessary action to deal with it. Therefore, I think that there is ground for the attitude of sober confidence adopted by the Finance Ministers, and I think that the House can feel satisfied that we are at any rate handling the matter—I say "we" in the sense of all those responsible in the various countries—with rather more success than previous recessions of this kind have been handled.
    Now we want to look at the problem of Europe. I want to warn the House of the position as I see it in Europe and in the O.E.E.C. If we take the European Payments Union by itself in isolation, we must realise that we have not yet repaid by our ordinary transactions the credit we have received fromthe Union. When the present Government came into office, we inherited a debt with Europe. Now we are keeping roughly level in our transactions, but I consider that we are very likely to increase our debt with Europe during 1954. We may well at some time have to move into a higher gold tranche.
    The House must remember that I am not talking only of the United Kingdom. If I were talking only of the United Kingdom I think that I could present a rather different picture, but I am talking for the sterling area as a whole. The reason I make this remark, which I do not think is at all one which need cast us into particular gloom or difficulty, is that the relaxations of the imports of the rest of the sterling area—that vast area of world trade—have helped our exports to the sterling area but have also resulted in higher imports from Europe too. The result of that generally, from the point of view of the sterling area, combined with our deliberate policy of liberalisation of trade with Europe, will mean that we shall not have quite so good an outlook in that sector. But, taken in conjunction with the other sectors of the world where our trade is being transacted, I think that it falls into the picture quite normally.
    I do not propose to recommend either to the Government or to this House that

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    we should cure this matter by restrictions. I am convinced that if we were to go back on our liberalisation policy with Europe and return to restriction, the retaliation on our exports would be far worse than what we have to envisage now. I am convinced therefore that we have been right to liberalise and that we should now try to increase our exports, and the exports of the sterling area as a whole, to the whole non-dollar world, and that includes Europe.
    I have tried to give as frank an appreciation of the outlook in America and the outlook in Europe as I can, because we are at the beginning of an important year. It is a year in which we shall have difficulties, but I am convinced that we shall surmount those difficulties. I sum up the position of the outlook for the sterling area in this way. We cannot expect the sterling area necessarily to earn a surplus of the same level as it did in 1952–53 when it was £400 million. This surplus was partly dependent upon the imposition of drastic import restrictions which it would be in nobody's interest to continue a moment longer than is necessary. But we do aim at—and given reasonably favourable conditions we may expect—the continuance of a surplus in the overseas accounts of the sterling area.
    Relatively, of course, we expect a considerably more robust surplus for the United Kingdom, but that comes, again, from the well-known economic fact that when the terms of trade have been running as they have been running, the United Kingdom profits more than the sterling area, because those very commodities which go down in price and therefore reduce the earnings of the Commonwealth, naturally make our imports easier and improve the position for the UnitedKingdom. That is why the Commonwealth has never yet, to my eyes or ears, produced a united and agreed commodity policy; the countries which export basic commodities like to see their prices high, but the United Kingdom likes raw material prices to go downa bit in the interests of production for export.
    It was recognised in Sydney that the sterling area must not look for its big surplus from the emergency of a raw materials boom, as after the outbreak of the Korean war. Sooner or later, such
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    conditionscause dislocation, or, as in the case of Australia, almost disaster. Equally, we do not propose to try to get a big surplus by import restrictions. We propose to go ahead on the theme of expanding and developing, and particularly expanding and developingtrade within the sterling area, and trade between the sterling area and the rest of the world. In this connection, the United Kingdom can, I think, take a legitimate pride in the fact that some 60 per cent. of the earnings of the sterling area are due to our efforts, visible and invisible, and including oil.
    This shows the pivotal role whichwe occupy, and I think it tends to create some ideas which the House used to have in the old days, that our strength comes from the great raw materials, rubber, tin, wool, and so forth. In fact, the main strengths of the sterling area today are the manufacturing industries of this country—the engineering industries—and their exports. That is why it is so important in any plan of Commonwealth development tosee that we are fairly treated at home just as we try to treat others fairly overseas. That is important for our standard of living and for the future of our work people in this country.
    Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: I gather that the right hon. Gentleman was speaking of the gross earnings of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Butler:Yes. I thought that the House might be interested, having mentioned the efforts made by the United Kingdom during the past year, to see a report of some of the new exports that we have recently been successful in achieving. The two most striking examples are, first, aircraft, where the pre-war exports were something under £6 million, and where in the last three years exports have risen remarkably to a figure of just under £70 million; and, second, refined petroleum products, which now, partly as a result of our new refineries, are running at about £70 million a year. Both those exports, which I think we should mention, are signs that our inventiveness, skill and energy are as good as ever.
    But I would like to take one or two others which give remarkable figures and which show that there is life in the old

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    lion yet. Agricultural tractors, for example, yielded £40 million in exports; pre-fabricated houses£4 million—but about £7 million in 1952; combine harvesters and threshers some £3·5 million; while nylon stockings and nylon yarn brought in £6 million between them, and the new drugs, the antibiotics, and so forth, brought in another £6 million.
    These are examples—including the fact that our figures for exports generally have recently improved—which give some indication that we are forging and striding ahead. But we have got to do very much more. While we have found new sources of exports by our inventiveness, we have to find something more. Fifty per cent. of the earnings of the rest of the sterling area from the outside world come in aggregate from the big things like wool, rubber, tin, tea and cocoa. But there is another great and diverse range making up 50 per cent., especially coffee, asbestos, lead, and that sort of thing.
    Some of the products of the new African Federation, which could be really fabulous, we can export and thus improve notonly the balance of the sterling area, but the world as a whole. We agree that we must keep closely in touch on this question of improving our export trade. The hon. Member opposite asked a question today about better consultations within the Commonwealth. Actually, our consultation methods are about as close now as they have ever been. It is possible to have a consultation literally over night through our arrangements which do not involve the constitution of a particular office as such, but mean a directcontact through our machine and through the experts who have all got to know each other at the official conferences and elsewere. Commonwealth leaders do not want this consultation to be constitutionalised. They want it to exist as it exists in an ordinary family, and it is in that way that we propose to maintain contact, especially on this question of exports.
    The right hon. Member for Leeds, South asked in his article in the "New Commonwealth" about dollar imports. I thought it would be wrong if I did not attempt to deal with some of the perfectly legitimate points raised in this
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    article. On the question of dollar purchases, there might have been a natural tendency on the part of anybody who was involved in these matters two or three years ago to say that we should have restricted dollar purchases rigorously.
    But I want to say this about dollar purchases from the sterling area—and. I can answer chiefly for the United Kingdom—that we have removed discrimination in this realm of purchase only on basic foodstuffs and raw materials. This was the general view of the rest of the sterling area. In fact, most of the Finance Ministers assured me that their dollar purchases were personally supervised by themselves. I want to make it quite clear that it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government that it is crucial to our competitive power, that in the case of foodstuffs and raw materials, if we can buy cheaper in this market, then we should do so in the interest of the standard of living of our people and of the raw materials we need.
    That is the general answer to the right hon. Gentleman. He also raised the question of stocks. We have not regained prosperity at the expense of stocks. This is a matter which is often raised in debate, so I will answer itnow. Last year, stocks increased in quantity in this country over 1952, that is, stocks of imported commodities, and we are not, therefore, trying to do some kind of confidence trick by increasing our prosperity at the expense of stocks.
    I come now to a very important point raised by the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) when I made my short statement in the House on the Sydney Conference. He asked whether it was the case that the Sydney Conference had resulted in a reduction of Commonwealth trade. I thought that was a very interesting question as it shows that he—and some hon. Members also—think that because we have widened out the conception of Commonwealth trade with the world, we are not concentrating so much on trading within the Commonwealth.
    I also think that some hon. Members believe that, owing to these currency restrictions on trade, there is a deliberate attempt to cut down Commonwealth trade. Those emergency restrictions were imposed entirely for balance of payments reasons, and they have mostly been

    589
    abandoned except in the case of Pakistan. Naturally we discussed those matters, and I have hopes that there may be developments and that further arrangements may take place as the balance of payments difficulties decrease.
    Arising from the Sydney Conference, it is important to realise that it was not the restriction of Commonwealth trade that we were aiming at but at its expansion, and we were aiming to increase its volume by widening the area over which we all trade. That is the very opposite of restriction and confinement.
    That leads me to say a word about Imperial Preference. Of course, this matter has been discussed at the last two conferences. The first point I want to make about this is that it is the UnitedKingdom which, through all this difficult period, has kept an open door for all imports from the sterling area. We have done it continuously and, as far as I am concerned, that remains our policy. This indicates that from our point of view we are in favour of granting every opportunity to the Commonwealth to trade with us.
    When we approached the question of Imperial Preferences this Government hoped from the start that there might be an opportunity of getting the abrogation of the "no new preference" rule in G.A.T.T.—heaven knows why it should be a great evil to conduct preferences with one's own family. When we came to consider this with the other nations concerned and with the Commonwealth, we found that they were not so keen on this development aswe were, but it still remains our policy that we believe in preferences and would like to use them wherever possible. It also remains our policy to keep the open door as we have done consistently. I have said that when we came to discuss this with the other nations, we had little success, but the President of the Board of Trade had a minor success in being able to increase the tariff on certain products after his last visit to Geneva.
    What is the view of the Commonwealth on this matter? The view of the Commonwealth as a whole—and I think I can mention this for each individual country—is that it wishes to see the existing preferences retained. Therefore, a great deal of nonsense is talked about
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    the preferential system being abandoned. Thatis not true. The Commonwealth wishes to see existing preferences retained. For instance, no one is keener than South Africa to have her preferences on her wines and fruits. No one is keener than Australia to have her existing preferences retained.
    There is a fear in the minds of some of the new Commonwealth countries that the words "Imperial Preference"are by their nature not suitable for the modern age in which we live, and there are political difficulties surrounding the problem of extended preferences in some countries. In others they are anxious whether preferences will be given to them by the rest of the Commonwealth if they grant preferences to the United Kingdom.
    So the long and short of this matter is that the Commonwealth is looking to other methods, which I shall be describing shortly, of expanding its trade while maintaining the present preference system. It is most important for the House to understand the modern, independent Commonwealth as we find it and as it really is. In this connection hon. Members on either side of the House would make a great mistake if they did not realise that Australia intends to build up and maintain certain secondary industries.
    After an intimate discussion of these matters, not only with the Ministers, but also in each country—because I stopped in Pakistan and in India, I went to Calcutta as well as Delhi, I stopped some time in Malaya and visited various parts of Australia—I came to the following conclusion. In all those parts where our exports are affected by competition and where it is vital for us to do better, it is true to say that, despite the establishment of secondary industries, if the volume of opportunity and the volume of trade increases, then the volume of trade and opportunity increases for the United Kingdom.
    I further found, which is comforting, that although we have had difficulties over delivery dates, and although we have had difficulties over follow-up, we can compete in our engineering industries and we are competing. We are having trouble with Germany because the German order books are not filled and they are not like ours. For the time being we shall have

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    trouble, but if we follow up this plan of the development of the resources of the Commonwealth and then tender competitively, as I believe we can, we shall maintain the standard of our exports, and the greater the volume of trade and development the greater chance we shall have.
    There is a view that the Commonwealth might, perhaps with Europe, form a closed and self-contained ring. Let us face up to that. The sterling Commonwealth is not self-sufficient. It must import wheat, iron ore, timber, wood pulp, cotton, tobacco, coarse grains, meat and aluminium. If we look at the whole Commonwealth, that is, taking in Canada, I do notbelieve that it is self-sufficient either, because we should need to import meat, cotton, coarse grains and tobacco, to take only a few examples.
    I mention these things because they are matters which are of great interest to hon. Members and they ought to be brought out into the open and discussed in a dispassionate way in order to find the best policy for each country. If that be the case, what is the best line for our country and for the sterling area? I am convinced that the best line is the one we adopted a year ago in the London Conference and which we have confirmed now, namely, the collective approach of the Commonwealth, together with the countries of the E.P.U. and Europe, towards a freer trade and payments system.
    This means that we inevitably linkup the economies and the finances of the free world on the other side of the Atlantic, and in the Pacific, and on this side in Europe, as we are linked already in foreign policy, and vitally linked in defence. I think the great weakness of the free world at the moment is that we have not made enough progress together in the solid basis of our economic and financial policies.
    That is what we are aiming at. I do not want some hon. Members who remain as keen as I am on the preferential idea, and who believe, as I do passionately, in the strength and unity of the Commonwealth, to think that we are edging out into some purely idealist world where we shall throw away all discrimination before we are ready, and build up a system which
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    is not safe for our people and our country; any more than some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite imagine that we have thrown the reins on the horse's neck in the internal economy and are going mad on some sort of dogma. It simply is not true. We watch things just as carefully as right hon. Gentlemen opposite did in their time, and we watch them a great deal better because we are successful and they led us into bankruptcy.
    The position, as I see it, is that we shall remain absolutely cool, calm and collected in this matter. As a leading article in the "Economist"says, which I read under one of those delightful captions that are produced every week, if we cannot get one world immediately—which is, after all, a great ideal—we may have to work for one and a half worlds. We have to work towards the collective approach in order to get a degree of freer trade with the United States. We hope to get the convertibility of sterling, which finances half the trade of the world, when we can fulfil the conditions; but we must at the same time perform what is the vital function, and that is to build up our own strength and the strength of our Commonwealth.
    Therefore, it is on these lines that I conclude. What chance is there of achieving this freer trade and payments system, and what outlook is there for building up our strength? Considerable progress has been made towards this freer trade and payments system. We laid down three conditions, as the right hon. Gentleman will remember—sounder internal policies, co-operation from creditor countries, such as the United States, and adequate support for the reserves.
    In each one of those departments considerable progress has been made in the last year. In the United States the outlook is more hopeful after the Douglas Report and the Randall Report, and the definite message of President Eisenhower to Congress indicating the direction in which American policy is moving.
    So that is a more hopeful outlook. But this, just the same as my prognosis for the balance of payments, depends upon the action which is taken. If action of that kind recommended in the Randall Report is taken, then we may well say

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    that in the not too distant future we can move further along these lines. But I remind the House that these freer policies have a great reward. If our currency returns to convertibility it will be stronger, and all this will redound to the advantage of the City of London and bring more credit to our trade and payments.
    I conclude with a few words about what, I think, is the modern conception of bringing the Empire closer together. It is the great opportunity we have for developing our resources. If hon. Members had had the chance that I had of seeing the massive character of these resources, the new developments in Central Africa, in India, in Australia, in New Zealand with its timber supplies, and in Ceylon, they would be astonished that in the past we have not done more to develop our own strength in this way. The responsibility now is on all hon. Members.
    I said deliberately when I landed in Sydney that we had to take an audacious attitude towards this question of the development of our resources, and I am sure that that is right. Last year we made available, or authorised, some £120 million sterling from a variety of sources in the City of London for these purposes. I am convinced that it will pay us if we go on providing for projects which improve the balance of payments and in some cases meet the social needs of the backward people. It is, so to speak, throwing good money after good, because this is the way to increase our export trade. When I discussed these things in the countries concerned the people there said, "If you can help us a little bit, in addition to our own efforts, in financing these developments then your engineering exports will get the opportunity which they so much need."
    This, therefore, is the modern, imaginative policy which we have to pursue. It will mean quite an effort and quite a strain for this old country. We gave a considerable lead in Sydney. I think that the Australians and the other people concerned were able to see the vitality of our economy and the extent to which this Government and this country intends to give a lead to the Commonwealth in this matter of development.
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    This means that we shall have to increase our earnings and keep our production up. We shall have to make this a great national effort, all of us being brought together, and we shall have to realise that only in this way can we maintain our lead. What is much more important even than this for our own people, is that only along the path of expansion and development can this Island of 50 million people, which can only feed 30 million normally, keep our standard of living and our employment.
    That is why this Conference, although it may have had a quiet ending which may have distressed the right hon. Member for Leeds, South and other learned scribes, in fact had a considerable success in the field of moving towards a system of freer trade, a system of expansion, a system of closer unity and co-operation between us all, and, above all, a determination so to develop our resources that our unity becomes not only constitutionally the most interesting but economically the most powerful that the world has ever seen.
    5.5 p.m.
    Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: The Chancellor of the Exchequer was clearly at pains, especially at the beginning of his speech, to avoid any allegations from the House that he was dealing once more in clichés and, for a good part of his speech at least, he gave us a kind of "View of the Commonwealth and its economic problems without tears." If there were clichés for some of us, at least some of the things which he said were desirable from the point of view of teaching hon. Members opposite about the facts of life. But I felt that just at the end the Chancellor was back again in his old form. He could not resist those inspiring sentiments. I sympathise with him. It is difficult for any Chancellor of the Exchequer not to end a speech with inspiring sentiments, but I hope that some day the right hon. Gentleman will try not only to end his speech but to see it through without talking about unity, stability, flexibility, and all the other "itys."
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Those are all nouns, or virtues, to which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends attach little importance.
    Mr. Gaitskell: We attach importance to things which have very precise and definite meaning and not to vague phrases which are extremely difficult to understand precisely.
    Sir Robert Boothby: May I point out that I have been listening to these remarks from successive Chancellors for 30 years and that they were used by no one more than by the late Sir Stafford Cripps? They are written, as of course we all know, in the Treasury.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I had already conceded that it was difficult for any Chancellor. I was merely exhorting the right hon. Gentleman to try to keep them out. But Sir Stafford Cripps gave us a great many facts as well, which the right hon. Gentleman, somehow or other, seems to leave out.
    As I shall have some critical things to say about the Sydney Conference and questions to ask, and anxieties to express, I should like to make it plain from the start that we attach the utmost importance to these conferences. They are not only valuable, they are essential to the proper working of the sterling area and for the benefit of the economy of the Commonwealth as a whole.
    But there are some things about this Conference that trouble us a good deal. I should like to begin with something that may seem to the Chancellor of comparatively little importance. It is the publicity which the Conference attracted and the Press statements that were made from day to day. After all, that is the only way in which we can know what is happening—that and the Communiqué and such statements as the right hon. Gentleman and other Ministers make. Before the end of the Conference the "Financial Times" said:
    "The Sydney Conference has provided something of a record in the production of garbled reports. If the final Communiqué runs true to form it is not likely to clear up the confusion very much."
    I think that one may say about this Conference, as compared with the previous Conference, that a great many different reports seem to have got out to the Press. Whereas on the previous occasion the difficulty was to find what had actually happened—at least we did track down to earth the convertibility plans—this time it is very difficult to find out
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    anything precise at all emerging from the Conference.
    The "Economist," in the article which the Chancellor quoted described the Communiqué as
    "A jumble of careful contradictions, in eight pages of double talk and bad grammar."
    But the contradictions and the double-talk, if not the bad grammar, had begun, of course, long before the publication of the Communiqué. Indeed, they began as the Ministers began to arrive in Australia; and while they were on their way there they joined in this business of expressing contradictory opinions. I was surprised that the Chancellor felt able to assure us of the absolute unity and sense of common purpose of all Members of the Commonwealth. He painted a kind of monolithic picture of the situation, which is strangely at odds with what one read in the newspapers.
    For example, at the very beginning—I think on the day before the Conference began—the Canadian Finance Minister and the New Zealand Associate Finance Minister expressed diametrically opposite views on Imperial Preference. Mr. Abbot, the Canadian Finance Minister, said of Imperial Preferences,
    "We feel that they did good work for many years, but it is now time to lift them, together with other barriers on exchange, currency, and trade. As a trading nation with a dollar currency we find that Imperial Preference works in reverse for Canada."
    Mr. Bowden, the New Zealand Minister, said on the same day that he was an enthusiastic supporter of Imperial Preference and would like to see it deepened and strengthened.
    Mr. Menzies, as we know, has always been very enthusiastic and interested in convertibility and gave us a great deal of information about it last year. But the Ceylon Finance Minister, our friend Sir Oliver Goonetilleke, to whose period as High Commissioner we all look back with pleasure and whom we liked very much, took a rather different view. Soon after he arrived in Sydney he said:
    "We are constantly worshipping at the shrine of the false goddess of multilateral trade, and that does not bring homes or jobs to our people."
    Sir R. Boothby: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Gaitskell:He has at least one supporter in the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby). One

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    might have hoped that the Chancellor himself would have been able to pour oil on the troubled waters, but that was not so. He was involved almost at once in controversy with the deputy leader of the Australian Labour Party. He announced at Darwin that
    "the Commonwealth had tremendous resources in uranium and oil which have to be developed in the interests of the whole rather than of any single nation. Britain was hugely interested in Australia's uranium deposits and they would all have to be used for the benefit of the British Commonwealth."
    If I may say so, that was not up to his usual standard of tact and diplomacy, and it was not altogether surprising that Mr. Calwell very shortly afterwards—I think it was the next day—said about this statement that if any of Australia's uranium was sold it should be at the highest prices, and added:
    "Australia should not allow herself to be blackmailed into selling at bargain prices with the argument that while we have uranium some other countries have scientists with 'know how.' Rather than surrender…"
    I am not expressing any views on this, but saying what the atmosphere of the Conference was—
    "Rather than surrender to the pressure of the British Government, we should attract scientists to work for us."
    At a later stage, obviously the Chancellor saw that he had not expressed it in quite the right way and put a rather different gloss on this business of uranium. He has referred to that this afternoon.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:May I point out that from the start my intention was absolutely clear? On landing at a very early hour in the morning—the right hon. Member has been through this himself and knows that the Press speaks to one at every hour of the day or night—I said that these great resources—entirely Australia's—would be used for Australia and the Commonwealth and the world. This was an absolutely perfect statement. It gave a lot of fun and it was fully realised what I meant.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am delighted that we have had a tactful intervention to say it was quite all right. I said that the Chancellor had a rough journey, but one would have expected him, with his talent for agreeing with an almost infinite number of people with different opinions, to have been able to smooth things out. Perhaps
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    he did so at the Conference. In the beginning, his own line was consolidation. That was to be the keynote of the Conference. At Singapore he said:
    "that the coming year might bring trade difficulties but, if the Commonwealth consolidated firmly, it might emerge from the difficulties and find fresh prizes."
    "The Times" said:
    "Mr. Butler defined the prizes as 'convertibility and things like that'."
    What I think was even more remarkable was that he went on to define consolidation, which is a very difficult thing to do, by saying that the essential feature of consolidation was to make sure that their internal policies were strong and this meant balanced budgets. Coming from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has had the largest overall deficit this country has known for at any rate six years or so, that was a rather remark able statement. I hope that when the time comes, next April, he will live up to it and that in the Budget he will cover all under-the-line expenditure as well as over-the-line expenditure.
    A little later at this same Press Conference in Darwin—which gave rise to so much trouble—the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "A great deal has been achieved in the last two years in restoring the position of the sterling area, but now we must consolidate…."
    The same word again.
    "Economic troubles may arise at any time and we must be prepared to face them. But now we have such terrific wealth I feel we cannot fail if we stay on a straight and narrow path."
    I thought that a rather curious statement for, generally speaking, the possession of great wealth leads people to suppose that they need not stay on a straight and narrow path. Of course, the usual phrase came the next day when the right hon. Gentleman got to Sydney and settled down after the long voyage:
    "We now have the long haul ahead to prosperity."
    But finally, feeling that long hauls and consolidation did not really meet the needs of the Australian climate, the right hon. Gentleman appealed to the sterling area to take risks and to be audacious. Risky consolidation is evidently the policy of Her Majesty's Government. I think the Chancellor will agree that when looked at afterwards, some of these sayings appear a trifle odd.

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    I turn, as did the right hon. Gentleman, to the prospect before the sterling area and to the world economic situation. He referred in his speech—and it was mentioned in the Communiqué—to the existence of £400 million surplus in the sterling area in the year 1952–53, as compared with the £1,000 million deficit on the previous year. I ask him in a Question today exactly what that £400 million covered because, in the first place, the surplus in gold and dollars for 1952–53 is not £400 million, but £257 million. The Question was not reached at Question time and the answer is not entirely clear. I presume that the explanation is that we were either repaying debt to other parts of the world, or we were investing outside the sterling area; I think that the change in the Japanese situation is one of the important explanations.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: May I hand the answer to the right hon. Member?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have seen the answer, thank you very much, but it does not tell me very much. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations will give more details when he replies to the debate.
    I think we should be aware of how the £250 million gold and dollar surplus is composed. It is not a true current balance of payments surplus at all. In the first place, it includes defence aid to the extent of £118 million, it includes other capital grants for movements into the sterling area of £45 million and the true current balance between sterling and dollars in 1952–53 was, according to the White Paper, £94 million. Certainly that is not anything which we should play down too much. It is desirable to have a current balance, but I think it extremely important that we should not be misled into supposing that the structural change has been as great as the figuresof £400 million seem to suggest.
    Secondly, I think we ought to ask how this is happening. I want now to refer to some interesting figures which the Board of Trade recently published about the terms of trade of the whole sterling area with the rest of the world—that is to say the prices of imports into sterling area countries in relation to the prices of
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    their exports. These figures, published in the Board of Trade Journal, show that in 1951–52—which was the crisis year, the difficult year—the terms of trade of the sterling area deteriorated by no less than 25 per cent. I reckon that that change in the price situation alone must, in round figures, have cost the sterling area about £1,000 million.
    Since then, thatis to say in the next year, 1952–53, the terms of trade have improved by about 7 per cent.—the price of imports in relation to the price of exports—and the gain is something of the order of £200 million. I do not know how longthat improvement will continue, but it is obvious from the figures I have mentioned that it is of great importance to the sterling area what happens to dollar prices on the one side and sterling area prices on the other. I do not think we can assume that the movement will necessarily always be in our favour.
    The second point I wish to make, and which was referred to by the Chancellor, is that the recovery has been associated with very severe import restrictions. He assures me we are not de-stocking in this country. In the article he mentioned I was not referring so much to the United Kingdom as to other parts of the Commonwealth. Perhaps we could have an answer on the point about whether in 1952–53 the fall in imports in the rest of the sterling areaand the Commonwealth was in any way at the expense of stocks. As the Chancellor has admitted, we cannot hold these import restrictions for very long, and that is presumably one of the main reasons why the prospect for 1953–54 is much less favourable.
    A figure was given in the Conference—it leaked out—of £200 million. I presume that again is a figure including defence aid, and capital movement as well possibly. If so we must draw the conclusion that the Conference themselves decided that at present we were, so to speak, barely in balance with a small surplus, but not more than that. I suggest we should keep that in mind when we come to consider convertibility.
    I still hold the view that it would be most unwise to embark on convertibility—in any form, one may say, whatever—unless we feel that structurally the balance of payments in the sterling area is in surplus, particularly with the dollar area. As to gold reserves, of course they

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    have risen. But I must point out that the figure of just over £900 million which they have reached, compares with £1,380 million which they had reached in July, 1951. That is to say, they are nearly £500 million below the peak point they reached in the post-war period.
    It may be said, "Yes, but the sterling balances are not so high as they were then."That is true, but the sterling balances in relation to the reserves are just about the same level. That means that if there were to be any unbalance in the current account it is only too likely that the sterling balances which exist, and which are still very large, would be converted into dollars, and we should have a serious exchange situation developing.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree that sterling balances on the whole are controlled by releasing agreements and in several important cases—as I said about India—they have not yet drawn upon their usable balances. The rest are controlled by particular agreements.
    Mr. Gaitskell: With respect to the Chancellor, I would not say that is true of all the sterling area balances.
    Mr. Butler: Not all.
    Mr. Gaitskell: It is true of the Egyptian balances; I made the agreement myself. But the whole point is that the sterling area balances, by and large, are free balances.
    Mr. Butler: Some of them.
    Mr. Gaitskell: It is true that the fact that India has not drawn as much as she might have done in the past means, of course, only that the balances have accumulated and may be drawn.
    Mr. Butler: I myself signed the release agreement with India just as the right hon. Gentleman contracted one himself.
    Mr. Gaitskell:All I can say is that I hope the Chancellor will not expect—I am sure he will not—that any particular agreement made withinthe sterling area, covering the Colonies as well will avoid trouble in the event of the sterling-dollar gap reopening. It is the essence of the sterling area that there is only a gentleman's agreement about not converting sterling into dollars. But if any members of the sterling area get into trouble there
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    is not the slightest doubt that they will be forced to draw on those balances. We have said that repeatedly so far as the colonial balances are concerned. Hon. Members opposite used to criticise us for allowing these balances to accumulate, but they have gone on accumulating, under the present Government. They will, however, be available for the Colonies to draw on if they run into economic difficulties. That cannot be denied.
    I wish to pass on to the general dollar problem. One might suppose from the remarkable outflow of gold from the United States in the last 18 months, which has been running at between 2 billion and 3 billion dollars a year, that everything was now moving in an entirely satisfactory manner. But I think again we should be rather cautious. In the first place, of this 2½ billion dollars to 3 billion dollars the sterling area has obtained only a little more than a quarter. The rest has gone to other countries outside the sterling area altogether.
    In the second place, as the Randall Commission's Report points out, this movement of gold from the United States is closely bound up with the fact that the United States, apart from military aid, are spending at present—and have been spending in the last year—3 million dollars on offshore purchases, military expenditure abroad and stockpiling, and 2 billion dollars on economic aid. In fact, the Randall Report assumes there is still a true dollar gap of between 2 billion dollars and 3 billion dollars a year.
    What is worrying me more is that they themselves recommend that economic aid should be brought to an end as swiftly as possible. They also recommend that any disguised economic aid should be brought to an end—anything which, for instance, comes out in the form of offshore purchases or expenditure, but is really done to help the economies of other countries. That, they say, must stop. We do not know what Congress will do, but I am bound to say that it seems far more likely that they will follow the recommendations of the Randall Commission in this respect, and not follow them in their tariff proposals.
    I am not suggesting that if trade is maintained in the United States there is

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    immediate trouble ahead. There are a lot of dollars still in the pipeline. But I am saying that, on the evidence available to us, we cannot say the dollar-sterling or the dollar-rest of the world problem is yet in any way finally solved. I am also going to ask whether in fact the United States economy is going to keep up.
    The Chancellor talked about that and I do not want, any more than he did, to go into a lot of statistical detail. He stated what I myself said, that there is a recession now. There is not the slightest doubt about that. Thequestion is how far it will go. But I think we should be making a grave mistake, however much we may hope for it, to expect that counter slump action by the American Government will necessarily cause the tide to turn. There is no doubt that in the UnitedStates there can very quickly be built up an extremely powerful depression psychology, and it is too early to say whether or not that will happen.
    It is true, as the Chancellor says, that the Report of the Council of Economic Advisers indicates that they think it is only an inventory recession and will not go further. But we know that, in addition to the fall in production and rise in unemployment, personal incomes have now begun to fall and there are signs of retail turnover also falling. Personally, I think it foolish for anyone to prophesy exactly what will happen. I do not doubt the desire or indeed the intention of the American Government to adopt counter-measures. What I do doubt is whether they and Congress between them will move sufficiently far andsufficiently fast.
    How will this affect us? It has not yet greatly affected us, though I was interested in the figure given by the Chancellor of the decline in dollar exports. Perhaps we may be told if there is any information about the future prospects for dollar earnings both for the United Kingdom and the sterling area. The Chancellor has warned us that we shall be in deficit with Europe again, and taking that and the very uncertain outlook in the United States, it is obviously possible that the dollar gap may reopen.
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    That brings one to what we are to do in that event. I was a little disappointed about what the Chancellor had to say. He seemed to be praising President Eisenhower for the detailed statement made in the Report about what the United States Government were going to do. Why cannot we have from Her Majesty's Government some statement about what they are going to do? Surely the example of President Eisenhower in this matter ought to be followed. It is not good enough to do what the Ministers at Sydney did according to the newspapers—"deprecate public discussion of the United States recession." That is a rather silly line to take.
    It may be argued—apparently this was one of the things discussed at the Conference—that the gold reserves should be allowed to decline and that we should "live on our fat"for the time being. I gather that the Conference, quite rightly, turned that down.
    One is faced with the question of what will be done. It is no use the Chancellor saying that wedo not want to adopt any restrictive policies. There is nothing else that can be done as far as the dollar situation is concerned, in the short run anyhow, if the gap does reopen, except tighten control over dollar imports.
    That brings one right up against the question of whether one will tighten up against other imports. I submit to the Chancellor and the House that the essential thing at that point is to discriminate, and frankly to discriminate. This is one of the things about the Chancellor that worries us. He seems to have taken an increasingly hostile attitude towards discrimination against dollar imports, and that might be most dangerous, because it will leave him in the situation that the only way in which he can contract dollar imports will be by means of a general fall in incomes and employment here and the rest of the Commonwealth. That would be disastrous.
    The Chancellor made no reference to one matter which I would have supposed the Conference would have discussed—commodity agreements. AtSingapore, on his way out, he said that these were to be discussed and that the possibilities of a rubber buffer stock scheme would be considered, but we have heard nothing further. Very regrettably, the Randall Report recently turned down absolutely

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    flat any United States participation in these agreements. That makes the whole situation much more difficult. I should like to know whether, nevertheless, the subject was discussed at Sydney, and whether the possibility of a Commonwealth scheme with otherproducers and consumers as well was considered. After all, the United States have not officially come into the tin scheme. This is surely one of the obvious counter-measures which could be taken, and it is essentially a Commonwealth measure.
    I turn now tothe rather wider issue of encouraging Commonwealth trade. I shall take up again the matter of the Australian wheat surplus, which I raised at Question time the other day. This shows very clearly the kind of problem that we have to face if we descend fromvague generalities down to the real economic problems that arise. We all know that during the Conference itself a rather alarming statement was made by Sir John Teasdale, Chairman of the Australian Wheat Board. He went so far as to say that the position facing the Wheat Board and Australia was the most serious crisis since the depression of the early 1930's.
    One is bound to ask if the Conference considered whether the sterling area could absorb the surplus. After all, it is an extraordinary situation to talk about Commonwealth development, and particularly food production in the Commonwealth, and to encourage the Australians along these lines, and then, when they have a surplus, shrug our shoulders, turn our back and say that we are not sure that we can do anything about it. We must have a firmer answer on that point this evening.
    One of the spokesmen of the Conference—the gentleman who interviewed the Press—put it very well, saying that:
    "…there was a feeling that while preferential tariffs were limited by the provisions of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, preferential trade of another kind was feasible not by tariff preferences but by commodity agreements, under which members of the Commonwealth would buy more from one another.…For example, while Australia was looking for buyers for sterling wheat, India still bought wheat for dollars because she could buy it thus more cheaply…."
    I want to know where the Government stand on this matter. It is not enough
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    for the Chancellor to say, as he did, that the Australian wheat is soft wheat and that we need both hard and soft wheat. Does he really intend to say that the proportions in which the different wheats can be varied are absolutely fixed? Of course not. He knowsperfectly well that they can be varied, and have been varied. Is it, then, a matter of the price? According to my information, the price of Australian wheat is below rather than above that of Canadian wheat.
    One sees clearly that the difficulty that the Government are in is that they have now lost control of the situation by handing back the import trade in wheat to private firms and by introducing a free commodity market by allowing the wheat dealers to buy wherever they like whenever they like—complete freedom. This has really made it almost impossible for the Government to take urgent and immediate action to deal with the situation. That is a very serious matter.
    It does not apply only to wheat. It applies to many other commodities which are of great importance to the Commonwealth. The Finance Minister for Ceylon had a very clear view about it. When he was leaving the Conference, which debated in such harmony and came to such definite, clear and united conclusions about everything, he said:
    "Everyone had accepted the view that to increase its strength the Commonwealth must so far as possible buy from within itself. If there were surplus wheat in some countries of the Commonwealth and others were in the market for wheat, every possible effort would be made in future to purchase supplies within the Commonwealth before going elsewhere."
    Does the Chancellor agree with that, and if so, what is he going to do about it? How is he going to do anything about it without reversing home policies?
    Sir Oliver's final words were touching. He said:
    "The most heartening words he took away had come from Mr. Butler…'Always remember I am your friend, and you can communicate with me even daily.' "
    I do not know what really happened. That looks very much like the end of tremendous row with the two sides making it up. It also looks very much as if Sir Oliver's idea of how the Commonwealth should work was not accepted by the Chancellor or by at any rate some of the other members.

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    It really is not good enough to say, as the Chancellor said when he was asked about this:
    "The United Kingdom had to purchase wheat both from Canada and Australia because it mixed hard and soft wheat, but it would try to pursue the policy proposed."
    That is not an answer worthy of the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, especially one who believes in planning and is always reiterating that the economy has not gone back to free private enterprise. I hope we shall have an assurance on this point, because it is a really serious matter and illustrates perfectly the difficulty into which we are now getting.
    The same thing arises over Imperial Preference. It is clear that what the Government intend to do—I hope hon. Members opposite realise this—is to get rid of import licensing throughout the whole of the sterling area—what we call quantitative controls and restrictions—and to retain Imperial Preference as it is today. Some members of the Commonwealth would like to get rid of it; Canada, for one, would. Others would like to get something more in the way of preferences, so we are left with the broad conclusion that it would be left as it is now.
    But, of course, it is a very different matter from what it was before the war. The value of these preferences is far less than it was before the war, wherever they have been expressed in absolute terms; and yet here we have a Tory Government, which for years has been pressing the arguments for Imperial Preference, now going back far more in the direction of free trade and further away from Imperial Preference than we were 20 or 25 years ago. That is a fact which hon. Members opposite may perhaps like to think out, and on which to ask whether it is the policy which they want to see operated by the Government.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: May I make it clear that the right hon. Gentleman's conception of Government policy is entirely his own, and entirely erroneous?
    Mr. Gaitskell:It is always a necessary part of the process in these debates to guess at what is the Government policy, and to hope that the Government will explain it afterwards. If I have said
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    anything which is not true let him correct me. I have had to assume that this was Government policy. But if it is not, let the right hon. Gentleman say what is. What is wrong? Why do they not tell us? Do they want more preference and more Commonwealth trade? How, then, will they get it without Government authority and intervention?
    The truth of the matter is that they have been driven into this position by a combination of over-optimism on the part of the Bank of England and the Treasury as regards convertibility and a doctrinaire opposition to Government buying at home. They are now going to do—but far worse—the same with Commonwealth agriculture as they are already doing withBritish agriculture.
    The plain fact is that we cannot get real development in the Commonwealth without long-term guarantees and assurances of some kind. We know that was the case with sugar, and we know that it is the case in many other directions and in the case of many other commodities. If these guarantees are now to be taken off, I do not see that there is any serious prospect of getting that Commonwealth development in which we all believe—not so long as the Government persist in this policy offreedom for imports all over the Commonwealth.
    Quite apart from that difficulty about Commonwealth development, there are others—or, to put it in another way—other conditions that have to be observed if we are to get development. I see the present situation something like this. There are still Commonwealth countries keeping fairly tight restrictions on the imports of British goods, restrictions which they imposed in 1952 and which the Chancellor admitted have not yet been wholly removed. Manyof these Commonwealth countries have fairly favourable trade balances, but they also want to have more development.
    It seems to me that the obvious course, in these circumstances, is, firstly, as I have already mentioned, for us to give long-term guarantees, and particularly for agricultural production; secondly, the removal of restrictions by other Commonwealth countries to allow more of our goods, and particularly capital equipment, to be sold there; and thirdly, a sufficiently large balance of payments surplus in the United

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    Kingdom to finance the whole of that development.
    Has the Conference really carried out any step in this direction? We have had nothing precise about import controls; for example, we do not know whether the Australians are to liftany more restrictions or not. So far as our own contribution is concerned, there seems to have been a considerable muddle at Sydney as to what was said. Rumours got out that the Chancellor had promised this, that and the other, which then had to be hurriedly contradicted. But let us take the figure which the Chancellor gave. He said that in 1953 the British Government had approved an export of capital, including loans and grants to the sterling Commonwealth, of £120 million. That is quite a formidable figure, but it does not tell the whole story.
    We have the curious situation today that whereas, if the Australian Government or one of the State Governments or the Government of any other part of the Commonwealth, wish to come here and borrow, they haveto obtain the permission of the British Government, but if British firms want to export capital to any part of the Commonwealth, and want to set up subsidiary enterprises or start some businesses, whether it be mines or milk bars, there is no control whatever. There is nothing to stop them, and there must have been substantially more capital exported to the Commonwealth, I presume, in 1953 than the £120 million, because there is all this private capital which went out at about the same time.
    That means that, if this Government continue without any control over the export of capital, we shall have a position in which we shall have to find a very substantial amount of money for these purposes, which would mean a pretty large surplus in our balance of payments. The Chancellor was at pains to emphasise that anything he had promised at Sydney would not involve us in any greater austerity. There was to be no sacrifice here, but everything would be all right. What exactly did he promise? Is there to be an increase in the total amount of investment in the Commonwealth? Is it to be better directed? Is the same amount to be used to better purposes? If so, how is it to be directed? If no more is available and if there is to be no direc-
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    tion, what is the gain to the Commonwealth? If there is to be more, exactly how is this country going to find it?
    We have to find about £70 million a year for the repayment of the United States and Canadian dollar loans, with interest payments as well. On last year's figures, we are already, without including private account, up to £200 million. Are we to have a surplus of £200 million, and even if so, are we going to be able to accumulate dollar reserves over and above any increase in the sterling balances? Obviously, not.
    The Chancellor some time ago said that we should aim at a surplus of £300 million. I have the impression that he regrets making that statement, and more recently he spoke of it as being rather on the high side. But we must know where we stand. If the Chancellor proposes to go ahead with this Commonwealth investment, without a sufficient trade surplus, then I say that the only effect will be the piling up of short-term debts. We shall be lending long and borrowing short, and we all know how dangerous that can be. I think that it is something that must be watched. We must either control the private export of capital, or, somehow or other, achieve this larger trade surplus which is now imposed upon us.
    The trouble about the Chancellor is that he is so anxious to please everybody that he gives a series of contradictory answers. He is in favour of every kind of trade. If he is asked whether he wants more East-West trade, he says, "Certainly."If he is asked whether he wants more dollar exports, he says, "Of course."Does he want more trade with the non-dollar world? Certainly. The Conference spent a whole session on this. And last but not least the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) extracted a series of assurances that he also wants more intra-Commonwealth trade. If we are to have more trade in all directions, what does that amount to? It is just that we want more trade. [An Hon. Member: "Multilateral trade."] Yes, multilateral trade, but in that case we are back where we started, as far as any encouragement of trade in this or that direction is concerned.
    I agree with the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby). Despite

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    these bland answers to his hon. Friends and other people, the real trend at the moment is away from Commonwealth development and trade, and that is bound to be the case if the Chancellor carries out his avowed policy of reducing the degree of discrimination, introducing this freedom and getting back to full multilateralism which he seemsto favour.
    Of course, we realise the situation inside the Conservative Party at the moment. We know that there is a great deal of discussion going on about who is to succeed the present Prime Minister, and we know that the Foreign Secretary is in trouble over Egypt. I warn the right hon. Gentleman that, if he is not careful, he will be in just as much trouble over Imperial Preference and Commonwealth trade. I am not surprised that, in view of Egypt on the one side and Commonwealth trade on the other, the Prime Minister has decided that he will not retire after all.
    But this is more than a contest between two personalities, however admirable they may be. As I said at the beginning, we welcome those Commonwealth Conferences, and we do so all the more because we believe that our economic future is closely bound up with the working of the sterling area. We do not think it would be a good thing to bring the sterling area to an end, although convertibility does mean that.
    We cannot feel from what we have heard thatthe best use was made of the time of the Conference. Apart from a general impression of complacency, in no way dispelled by the Chancellor this afternoon, we cannot say that any clear picture emerges about the prospective balance of payments in the sterling area, and it does not seem that any serious attention was paid to the danger of an American slump or to the plans to be made against it. Certainly we have heard nothing of them. Far from any encouragement to increase Commonwealth trade, the Conference has been content to evade the vital issue of purposeful action to achieve this object. It has postponed altogether any discussion of Imperial Preference.
    We regret that the United Kingdom Government, instead of taking the lead in developing Commonwealth trade, have, by their anxiety to reintroduce unre-
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    stricted private trade, made this development difficult, if not impossible. The fact is that a successful Commonwealth policy today calls for State intervention and guidance on a scale far greater than hon. Gentlemen who support the Government would contemplate—in purchasing, investment, foreign exchange and import control.
    For the time being, I dare say, the combination of dollar aid and favourable terms of trade will obscure the dangerous consequences, but I am afraid that time will show that a great opportunity has been missed, and that, here as elsewhere, to try to apply 19th Century doctrines to the second half of the 20th Century, as the Government do, stands in the way of the real progress and the real interests of this country and of the Commonwealth.
    5.53 p.m.
    Sir Walter Fletcher: The right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) started his speech by daring to reprimand the Chancellor, and he finished with a most crashing cliché about 19th Century doctrines in the 20th Century. His speech was more of a take-over bid than anything else and, apart from the question of Imperial Preference, was a matter of trying to make as much mischief as possible. As the result of the by-election, which we saw in the Lobby today, shows, the takeover bid does not appear to have been very successful.
    I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his return from the Commonwealth Conference, which has increased his stature mentally and morally, and a little bit physically. This afternoon he has explained in language which everybody can understand the very real difficulties which we face, and he did nothing to minimise them. It must be remembered that for two years the position of the Chancellor has been one that was forced upon him. There is a historical precedent for it, that of the small Dutch boy who found a leak in the dyke and had to spend his time keeping his fist in the dyke to stop the flood from overwhelming his country. That is exactly what the Chancellor has been doing. When he took over office, the flood of inflation which was about to overwhelm this country was a great menace. For two years his freedom of

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    action has been greatly constricted because he had to keephis fist in that position to stop the leak. He can now say that he has stopped it, and the figures he gave today are very considerable proof that he has done so.
    I agree with what he had to say on the question of Imperial Preference. He has brought it up to date boldly. When we are busy giving autonomy to a great many parts of the Commonwealth and Empire, it is only natural that, as we give greater freedom of action, we should translate it into the economic sphere as well. Ceylon, which is a slightly marginal member of the Commonwealth of Nations, has made a contract about rubber with China, which the rest of the Commonwealth has not done. If we give no greater autonomy to countries like Malaya and West Africa, it is certain that the pattern of Commonwealth trade will be changed by them and not by us. It is wise and right of the Chancellor to be bold and to bring that out in the open. He has shown how we can retain the reality of the maximum of Imperial Preference and at the same time expand our trade.
    It was very curious to see the right hon. Member for Leeds, South shying away from a general increase of trade, thinking that because we are going to expand Imperial trade that must necessarily be at the expense of any other trade. We had the most curious picture imaginable of the restrictive mind which really governs the whole economic policy of those who sit on the Opposition benches.
    Mr. Gaitskell:The only way in which I can understand the hon. Gentleman's point of view is by supposing that he thinks that somehow we can get more than 100 into 100. I said that the relative amount of Commonwealth trade would decline, and so it will.
    Sir W. Fletcher:That is not what the right hon. Gentleman said. If he looks in HANSARD tomorrow he will see that he made a general statement, the sense of which was that we could not have expanding trade of every sort because one sort must always be at the expense of another. That is not so. We know that the mania for keeping the governmental hand on everything has that effect, andis one of the main defects of Socialism.
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    I should like to make one very pertinent and rather difficult point. It is clear that what emerges from the Sydney Conference more than anything else is the need for very large quantities of finance, to be found to a great extent from the City of London—from thrift here, from increasing balances, and from switching from one form of investment to another. That can be done only when sanctity of contract exists. A very bad precedent was set by the late Sir Stafford Cripps with his unilateral cancellation of the pulp and other contracts with Canada. It was followed by other countries outside the Commonwealth and, I regret to say, it was followed two years ago by Australia. We owe a great debt of gratitude to Australia for her open-handed and generous way of dealing with us in the last two years, and that has gone a great way to redeem an error of judgment.
    What we want more than anything else, and what must be if we are to continue to use the machinery of the City of London, which is the only workable one available, is some declaration by the Finance Ministers of the Commonwealth that they will in all circumstances regard contracts made as having a proper sanctity. If suddenly the terms of trade alter and conditions change, these matters can be settled by discussion among the parties concerned, but not by unilateral action. There is no excuse for saying, "The public interest demands that we should take this action."
    There is a precedent within the family for that kind of action, when a family which has bought a wireless set under the "never-never" system says: "We must have a television, so we will use the money that we ought to be using for the monthly payment on the wireless for the first down-payment on the television."That is a very wrong precedent. We know that there are instances of it outside the Commonwealth, particularly in the Levant and in South America, and that practices have grown up of Governments forcing communities and firms not to meet their obligations.
    If there grows up in the City of London a reluctance and fear to make the freest possible use of the existing machinery of credit, who will be the sufferer? It will be development in every form, whether in Australia or the Colonies or wherever it may be. If the fear grows

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    that contracts are not to be carried out, it is the backward people whom we wish to help, and the general creation of whose wealth we wish to assist, who will suffer. None of that development can take place unless there is a firm belief in the sanctity of the contracts of Governments.
    The City of London maintains its position as a giver of credit for one reason only. It may not have the same long purse as before but it has a long memory, and it remembers who are good debtors and who are not. It does not lend money on balance sheets but on the character of the individuals who run countries, whether Governments or not, and it is far more important than seems to be realised that the slight harm that has been done by the instancesI have quoted should be undone by a firm statement from the Chancellor, and those who co-operated with him overseas, that when difficulties arise in the future, as they will, it is firmly understood by all parties that there will be immediate consultationbefore action is taken. The City of London will then, as it always has done, place at the disposal of any and every Government—as it did in the case of the previous Government in this country—the whole of its machinery for the raising of money and credit for development purposes. But it must have that assurance before the gates can be fully opened.
    During my lifetime I have lived in many countries which are now calling for development—in West and East Africa, Malaya, etc. They still look to London as the centre for inspiration and leadership, and for financial support. It is on their behalf that I have ventured to put forward this plea today, because the first of all Imperial preferences will be that the countries concerned prefer to deal financially with the City of London, which has an unequalled record of assisting them in every possible way.
    There has grown up on the Opposition side a practice of crying down and denigrating in every way the City of London; and of making out that it isa band of nefarious people who look after their own interests. That, as anybody who took part in the debates on the Cohen Report will remember, is not correct. If carefully studied, the record of almost every country in the world will show that it is from
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    the better understanding of the machinery of credit in London that development has really followed.
    I most passionately urge upon the Chancellor, coming back with the greatly increased reputation and respect which he has gained from pretty hard dealing with pretty hard people, to get those people to support him in such a statement about the sanctity of contract as I have ventured to put forward this afternoon.
    6.4 p.m.
    Mr. F. Beswick: If one thing has emerged from the speech of the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Sir W. Fletcher) it is that in this House it is dangerous to charge another hon. Member with the use of clichés. The clichés to which the hon. Member turned—some of them not for the first time—seemednot to qualify him to criticise my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds. South (Mr. Gaitskell).
    On one point I should like to congratulate the Chancellor and that is on the ready way in which he agreed to hold this Conference in Sydney. During the RecessI had an opportunity of spending some time in Australia, and one point which was put to me, possibly more than any other, was how seldom Ministers from this country go to visit Australia, although there is a constant stream, they said, of Ministers from there to London. It is admirable to emphasise in this way that there are other Commonwealth centres in which Ministers can gather to discuss the affairs of the British Commonwealth and the Colonial Territories.
    I only wish that there had been a little more tangible indication from the communications which came from Sydney, and from the statement made by the Chancellor, that he intends to put some flesh on this framework of unity about which he spoke in his peroration. There were one or two parts of his speech which I found most agreeable, if I may say so; there were others which were irritating. When the Chancellor tried to suggest that the Commonwealth development—in India, and probably he was referring to the Snowy Mountain scheme in Australia, and the new mining ventures in Canada—had somehow taken place since the present Administration took over here, which is the impression he seemed to convey—
    Mr. R. A. Butler: May I intervene to say that that was in no way intended, nor would I like it to be so thought.
    Mr. Beswick: I think it would have been better had the right hon. Gentleman left those things unsaid.
    There seems good reason why the Chancellor should make a statement in the House at an early stage. After the two statements we had, it was really necessary that he should again attempt to tell us what had happened in Sydney. I would describe the two statements made hitherto as being policies of buck-passing. The Chancellor said that he welcomed the good creditor policies of the United States. The Conference was encouraged by the Report of the Randall Commission. On Tuesday the Chancellor said:
    "We shall also look to international institutions to play a more active and intimate part in enabling the problems of trade and finance to be tackled together."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1954; Vol. 523, c. 205.]
    He went on to welcome the prospect of I.M.F. credits. It seems extraordinary that a Conference composed exclusively of British Commonwealth Ministers should have spent so much time discussing the possibility of help from outside the Commonwealth.
    We followed that Conference, as best we could, with the greatest interest, but there was only one point at which we could say that something was soon to be done. That was when the Chancellor said that we were going in for an audacious investment policy. That gave hope that something new and more progressive would take place, but almost immediately the Chancellor was constrained to say that, after all, it would not be very much, norinvolve sacrifices by this country.
    Mr. William Shepherd: Will the hon. Member tell us where he gets his extraordinary version of what the Chancellor stated?
    Mr. Beswick:If the right hon. Gentle man wishes to say that, at no time, did he say that we were going to be audacious in our Commonwealth policy and then, subsequently, say that this did not mean we were going to make any sacrifices—
    Mr. Butler: If I may clear this up, at one stage of the Sydney Conference
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    a definite report was put out that the result of our policy was to be reversion to rationing in Great Britain, and the complete resumption of controls and old-fashioned austerity. I denied that because it was not the picture likely to emerge. I think that this policy will involve sacrifice and hard work for the people of Great Britain, but surely we can get a moderate view of the sense between those statements.
    Mr. Beswick: I am very grateful for what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but that was certainly not the impression which was conveyed by the Press. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman bad another difficult Press conference in the early hours of the morning. No one would deny the advantages and the necessity of co-operation and assistance from outside the Commonwealth, but it seemed as if at one point we went out of our way almost to apologise for the fact that we were holding a conference. There was the statement in the Press, apparently made to reassure the rest of the world, that this Conference was intended in noway to range ourselves against the rest of the world.
    Why should we be thus apologetic when we try to put our own house in order? I am becoming more and more convinced that it is quite wrong to look to the United States of America for the salvation of our economic future. We must face that fact. From time to time kind words may come from the United States Administration, but almost invariably they are followed by quite ruthless action from the business people. If we want an immediate illustration of that, we should look at the proposals which have recently been put forward with regard to Persia. Last Session we had a remarkable speech from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), in which he declared that the first item of American foreign policy was to break up the British Commonwealth. He was severely trounced by senior Members on both sides of the House, but there was a good deal of truth in what he said.
    I had the opportunity of going round the world quite recently. At every point I stayed on British colonial territory and in British Dominions. Without wishing to be melodramatic, I must say that it

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    is quite impossible for any British person to go through these areas, studying the trading conditions, without getting the impression that there is a struggle for the very soul of the British Commonwealth as between the British and the American idea. I was in Australia when the Vice-President of the United States went there for a short stay, and I know the efforts that were put in, by a very small but influential section in Australia, to build up his visit. I say no more about that, except to remark, in passing, that we have all read of the unsurpassed welcome that has been given, in recent days, to Her Majesty the Queen of Australia when she sailed into Sydney Harbour. We have to realise, however, that the Crown and sentiment, although magnificent ties, are no longer enough.
    At these conferences we should be discussing the possibility of ways and means to make secure the unity about which we all talk. Is it not possible to bring the social and political pattern of this association of nations more into line with the economic needs and possibilities of the modern world? Cannot we recognise the logic of what has happened to make possible our present state of power and material development? Both the needs and the possibilities of a wider union brought about the Confederation of the nine provinces of Canada. We had the union of the Provinces and Colonies in South Africa. In Australia, the Act of Federation of 1901, federating the previously independent States, brought greater strength and material development to that great continent. If we wish to go still further back, there was the union of the four Kingdoms around ourselves, and nearer, in point of time, we have had the Central African Federation. I am suggesting that at these conferences we should now be considering what we can do to bring, in turn, these different units into some federal arrangement.
    The Chancellor referred to the possibilitiesand the physical developments which have taken place, but I feel that we have not even begun to face up to the change in the physical facts of our times. In terms of time, London is now nearer to Sydney than Sydney was to Perth at the time of the Act of Federation, in 1901. We can now fly to
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    Montreal in one-tenth of the time it took to go from Vancouver to Montreal when the Canadian Provinces were federated.
    The Chancellor said that these other nations are very conscious of their independence. That iscertainly true. No one can visit those places and talk to the people without realising that they are very independent-minded. But their independence was learned in a political and physical climate completely different from that which exists today. I should like to feel that when representatives of the United Kingdom go out to these different Dominions and take part in these conferences, they will emphasise not so much the need for independence but the necessity of equality and interdependence.
    I went to Malaya and saw some of the good things which are now being done there. Elementary ideas of democracy are being learned in the new councils, and there is a great development with the new co-operative societies. In the evenings, when I talked to the people, they used to ask about the independence of their country, and when they would be able to have free elections for the Federation. They have a perfect right to ask for political independence, but surely it is silly to consider—as the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe apparently does with equanimity—the possibility of more completely separate economic units. I took off from the airport in Singapore in a Comet, and in a few moments we were over the boundary.
    In the modern world it is absurd to think in terms of completely separate economic units, but the policies which are now being considered have reference only to that old-fashioned idea. They are not the policies we ought to be considering at these conferences, or talking about at home in order to get people overseas to discuss similar ideas.
    I should like to see one customs union for the British Commonwealth. That is absolutely essential. There should also be one currency, and one central bank for the Commonwealth, and one balance of accounts forthe external trading of the area. Surely all these things are essential if we are to get the necessary mobility of men and money within the Commonwealth. Only if these aims are achieved can we have that over-all

    621
    general strategy of development which is required.
    My right hon. Friend spoke about the necessity for State direction of investment and trade. He was absolutely right, but our difficulty is that with our separate currencies and economic units, each totting up separately its individual balance of payments accounts, we have of necessity to think primarily of our own individual unit rather than of the best interests of the Commonwealth as a whole. Only if we have this common currency and one balance of payments account can we begin to think of theCommonwealth and how its interests as a whole can best be furthered. Reference has been made to the success of the internal policies of different nations within the Commonwealth, but only too often individual success has resulted in injury to other unitswithin the same Commonwealth. We ought to be getting together probably informally and unofficially for a time, to see whether we can get round this problem.
    That brings me to the question of preferences, about which I may be allowed to say a few words, although my right hon. Friend demolished very effectively the rather vague references which the Chancellor made to the subject today. Again, as things now are, any attempt to lower the barriers between one unit of the Commonwealth and another is held to be contrary to international agreements. What an absolutely absurd state of affairs it is in the modern world that it should be so. It is taken quite for granted that any interference with trade between the Province of Ontario and the Province of Quebec can beremoved. No one starts complaining because there are free conditions of trade between Victoria and Tasmania. We do not lodge any objections under the provisions of G.A.T.T. because Texas develops trade with California. Why should it be considered to be anunsound or unfair development if we try to get a relationship between this country and, say, Australia or New Zealand which permits the freest possible trade between these parts of Her Majesty's Dominions?
    In view of some criticisms made on some other occasion, I would make it quite clear that I am not seeking any closed Imperial shop. I am seeking to open up trade development within this area, and I am trying to suggest that this
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    really should be the sort of thing that is discussed between our sister nations.
    What I am suggesting, I appreciate, is by no means new. I believe it was first put forward by Lord Rosebery—or does it go back farther than that? Mr. Alfred Lyttelton pleaded for a similar idea at the Colonial Conference in 1907. A similar idea was put forward in 1911, and I think Canada turned it down. I was interested to read the other day that the late Viscount Bennett said that the proposition that Mr. Harcourt put forward in 1911 was regrettably turned down, and that since that time hehad always regretted the influence of Canada in turning down that suggestion.
    It may not be immediately feasible to expect the whole of the Commonwealth to come in. We have to recognise the special position of Canada, and maybe also India and Pakistan haveto bed down in their new Constitutions, but even without those countries we have 160 million human beings, and their lands that are to be found in all climates and with all geological conditions, and with resources potentially greater than those of the United States.
    I have mentioned the United States repeatedly, and I should like to make it quite clear that I am not anti-American. If we consider any grand design in these matters, then in my view what we have to seek is, first, this union of the British Commonwealth, simultaneously to encourage the union of the nations in Europe, and then ultimately I would hope to see union extended with our friends on the other side of the Atlantic. We shall not get nearer to that state of affairs while we have this concentration on the laissez faire possibilities of each separate economic unit.
    It was because I saw no sign in the two communiqués that we recognised the immense possibilities of British Commonwealth development that I found them so disappointing. To some extent the Chancellor's words today have been more attractive. The words have been more attractive, but the policy still remains a disappointing one.
    I hope that on both sides of the House we can get discussions started. Some believe it is now too late. I believe the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby) has been

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    heard to say that it is now too late to expect this Commonwealth development. I spoke to 30 different meetings of business associations in Australia. The only person who was completely against the idea was the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations when he arrived in Sydney and had the proposition put to him. He dismissed it completely as impracticable. As to the rest, there was great interest, and I should like to think that from here we can continue the same discussion for action along the lines of a full union of the nations of the British Commonwealth and Empire.
    6.25 p.m
    Sir Robert Boothby: I would disabuse the mind of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) of the idea that I have ever expressed any opposition to the very interesting proposal he has put forward. If I do not follow it up tonight, it is because I do not think it is entirely relevant to this debate, which is economical rather than constitutional.
    I am reluctant to strike a discordant note. A discordant note, however, I shall strike. I would not dream of being as rude about the Sydney communiqué as the "Economist" in that shocking remark quotedby the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) in opening for the Opposition:
    "A jumble of careful contradictions in eight pages of double talk and bad grammar."
    That is really going much too far, in my view. However, the basic fact remains that the drive for free multilateral trade and free currency convertibility is to continue. That is the objective. G.A.T.T. is all right because Empire Preference is really out of date. The attempt to build a trading area within the Commonwealth and Empire by means of a development of the preferential system is to be abandoned. I deliberately use the word "development"of the preference system, So is the attempt to co-ordinate the economy of this area with that of Western Europe; for you cannot co-ordinate something with nothing. It has to be the world for us—or nothing. I hope it is not going to be the latter.
    Well, we tried it before, after the First World War, and it was not a great success. In the 1920s we assumed—most of us, I think—that we could go back
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    to a recognisable version of the international economic system of the 19th Century, based on free trade, a gold standard, Liberal ideas, and Adam Smith. This ended in the greatest economic disaster known to history. In the 1930s Britain led the world out of the economic pit that we had dug for ourselves by supping the anchor of gold, expanding credit, letting the £ find its own value, protecting the home market, and developing the system of Imperial Preference.These are the things which enabled us to lead the whole world out of the depression between 1933 and 1937. We are now, it seems, to
    "seek to establish wider markets and a freer system of trade."
    Non-discrimination and the Most-Favoured-Nation Clause once again hold sway; and free convertibility of sterling is once again the goal.
    I want to put quite briefly a serious argument to the House. The Sydney communiqué must be considered in conjunction with the Japanese Trade Agreement and the Randall Report, which are practically simultaneous. Let us consider first the Japanese Pact. I shall be quite brief about it. Let me say at once that I do not fear the effects of the pact as it stands nearly as much as some hon. Gentlemen, particularly those connected with Lancashire, seem to fear them. Moreover, it can be revised. I do not feel deep alarm about that. What alarms me—and I am glad to see my hon. Friend is here—is the argument with which the Economic Secretary sought to justify it to this House. He said:
    "We did not feel that in these circumstances—of no balance of payments difficulties remaining—we could ask the Colonies…to restrict their imports of Japanese goods."
    And again,
    "…it is impossible for this country to say to the Colonies, 'You must restrict the import of Japanese goods in favour of Lancashire.' "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st February, 1954; Vol. 523, c. 34 and 36.]
    I was deeply alarmed by this; so was the "Manchester Guardian." My hon. Friend has, no doubt, read the comment of the "Manchester Guardian's" leading article:
    "This is certainly a very odd Tory Government…"
    it began.
    "Here was Mr. Maudling, for the Treasury, enunciating the pure gospel of Free Trade and cheerfully throwing over 20 years (or rather 50 years) of his party's policy…"
    Dr. H. Morgan: Bravo.
    Sir R. Boothby:
    "He is probably too young to recall 1934 and the following years, when a Tory Government did tell the Colonies to restrict Japanese goods."
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. R. Maudling): I do not know whether my hon. Friend also noticed that on Saturday the "Manchester Guardian" had counselled caution to the critics because the Government had a very strong case.
    Sir R. Boothby: That may well be, but it did say that my hon. Friend was advocating the "pure gospel of Free Trade."That is what I found alarming. It said that my hon. Friend was too young to remember 1934, but I am not too young, and I am by no means sure that I am the one who is out of date.
    I turn now to the Randall Report. This seems to me to be far more serious, because it brings us right up against the problem of the dollar gap, now running at 3 billion dollars a year, in a period of great American prosperity. The Randall Report provides no solution whatever to the problem of the dollar gap. First, the "escape clause" and the "peril point"provisions are retained. This means that whenever any American industry thinks itself seriously threatened by imports, it is entitled to ask for a rise in tariffs to the sky—and will get the Congress to do it. Non-discrimination is also retained, for everyone else—except the United States. Economic aid to foreign countries is definitely to be terminated. That we know, and accept. That, I think, is right; but do not let us delude ourselves that it will ease our difficulties. Fourthly, inter-Governmental commodity agreements are almost savagely attacked. That puts paid to the rubber scheme—my hon. Friend may feel depressed about this and all the other commodity schemes which would have been an admirable idea, which worked before the war and could work again; but are now, from the practical point of view, denounced and rejected by the U.S.A.
    Finally—and this is the most alarming thing—exports in the event of any kind of recession are by one means or another to be subsidised, particularly exports of food. I do not know whether my hon.
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    Friend saw a very amusing cartoon in one of the American newspapers the other day on farm maintenance prices, in which one American was saying to another, "Well, we are paying such high taxes, and have now got butter up to such a price, that we cannot afford to buy it ourselves; so let the foreigners have it at half price." That makes a good deal of sense, because it is what may easily happen, and has, indeed, already begun to happen on a moderate scale. We may well have to face an avalanche of food imports from the United States at low prices.
    What are we going to do about that? Ispeak now as the representative of an agricultural constituency. The Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to be fairly gay about the Randall Report, but I do not think there is much to be gay about, and I should like to quote to the House—I seldom make a speech nowadays without quoting—
    Mr. R. A. Butler: My hon. Friend will, no doubt, wish to be accurate. What I said was that it all depended on the action taken.
    Sir R. Boothby:On that point, I quite agree. What I now have to say is relevant tothat interruption, and may be of some interest to my right hon. Friend. I am quoting from Walter Lippmann, because he writes so well and is so sensible. What he says about the Randall Report is of extreme interest to this country:
    "The fact of the matter is that what went on during those three months was not much of an investigation of foreign economic policy; it was really an investigation into the chances of persuading Messrs. Millikin, Reed and Simpson to agree to some kind of foreign economic policy which the White House could support. In this the commission failed.…As a result the majority report is a mixed and mediocre and often obscure re-hash of things that have been said more clearly and more expertly by others."
    It is rather like the "Economist" on the Sydney communiqué. Walter Lippmann goes on:
    "Senator Millikin has not been converted and he has not been persuaded to be a good fellow and go along. Why? Because President Eisenhower and Mr. Randall were acting on a theory which is wishful thinking—namely, that men like Millikin, Reed and Simpson do not really believe and do not really mean what they have always said that they believed and that they meant."
    That is fairly decisive; and if my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the

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    Exchequer anticipates any very encouraging or concrete results from the Randall Report in the Congress of the United States, he had better start bracing himself now for a fairly bitter disappointment.
    I joined the Tory Party what seems like a centuryago because I believed in the Empire, in protection and in Imperial Preference. To that I added, under the pressure of contemporary events, import control and long-term contracts; and I may even say bulk purchase contracts—I have always said this—as and when they appeared desirable or necessary for the particular commodity under consideration, because I saw that this might be a good method of developing Imperial trade and the resources of the Commonwealth. I have always believed that, and I am on the record.
    I opposed the return to the gold standard, and free imports, and the consequent deflation, and Snowden's mad attempt to cure the economic depression of the 1930s by increasing doses of deflation, because I agreed with Keynes that in periods of recession or of impending recession, what is called "a sound liberal economic policy" is lethal. That is the truth. I am sorry to have to say it to my right hon. Friend, but within his heart he knows it to be true.
    By clinging to the gold standard, convertibility, free trade, monetary restriction and a pound-foolish economy like glue, Snowden brought us to an abyss of unemployment, low production, and engineered poverty without any parallel in our history. I thought that that would be the end of it. Now I am not so sure.
    Post-war experience has not been too happy. I am not going into it all; but the words "Bretton Woods" do not conjure up any heartfelt feelings of pleasure or satisfaction, I think, on either side of the House. It is that little institution which provided 3 billion dollars to close a dollar gap of 20 billion and then did nothing about it.
    Then, I seem to remember an American loan. I was against that, and again I was right. This was an attempt to get back to convertibility. It lasted for five weeks, not very agreeable weeks, and then down went convertibility. Down the drain with it went 300 million dollars, the rest of the American loan, which was
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    not very encouraging. I got very little support in the House for my opposition to it.
    Then, in 1949, we had Sir Stafford Cripps declaring that Great Britain must attain economic independence and self-sufficiency by means of a tremendous export drive, particularly to the dollar area. And now we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer saying much the same thing, and the goal is still convertibility, and that it can only be achieved by more exports, particularly to the dollar area.
    The Treasury, when they get an idea into their minds, are remarkable and wonderfully tenacious. Chancellors of the Exchequer may come and go, parties come in and go out, but the Treasury goes on for ever. To get them to change their mind or to alter a policy is like trying to prise a limpet off a rock. You break your hand and the knife with which you are trying to do it, butthere they remain at the end, as limpet-like as ever.
    I am quite convinced that the Chancellor of the Exchequer believes in an expansionist economic policy. He has said so often in the past. He repeated it with emphasis today. My point is that he may easily get himself into a position where he cannot carry out an expansionist economic policy, however much he wants to do so; because the fundamental economic disequilibrium in the free world today, and its symptom the dollar gap, is no temporary phenomenon. It is the outcome of an economic process which has been going on since the beginning of the century and has been hastened, but not caused, by two world wars.
    The truth is that it is quite impossible for the currency of the world's biggest seller to do the same job as the currency of the world's biggest buyer. The dollar cannot do in the 20th Century what sterling did in the 19th Century; and we have not got the necessary reserves any longer, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself admitted, to carry out the policy that we did when we were the richest nation in the world, importing freely from everywhere and lending our vast annual export surpluses to every country all over the world. As one who has a great affection for clichés, and at the risk of offending my hon. Friend the

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    Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Sir W. Fletcher), whose interesting speech we all enjoyed, I would say the we cannot cure the ills of the 20th Century by applying the remedies of the 19th. That is a quotation from myself, andI have used it in speech after speech in this House.
    I must confess that I am getting a little tired of these continuous exhortations from the Treasury and from whoever may be the Chancellor about higher production, increased efficiency and greater exports. These things depend largely on policy. We had a pretty low production in 1952, and a remarkably good production in 1953. That was not because everyone suddenly decided to be idle in 1952, and to work like the devil in 1953. It was because in 1952 the Chancellor had a restrictionist Budget, rightly, I think, in order to meet our trade deficit; and in 1953 he felt able to present an expansionist Budget, with a result that was immediately apparent.
    If our wretched exporters are constantly harried and told to go here and there, to sell more, to go to the Argentine and other South American countries without any sterling and endless import restrictions, then to go to the United States, where they are determined to have no manufactured goods imported at all if they can help it, then to go to Germany and find themselves up against tremendous competition—that is a little unfair. They do their best, but their efforts must be governed by the policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government.
    I suggest that in a worldsuffering from an endemic economic disequilibrium, with a dollar shortage as a result, the long-term effect of non-discrimination, which is the policy to which we now seem to be committed, can only be to throttle down the total volume of world trade. We have had a good year, in the main due to the high level of activity in the United States. Now we are faced with the possibility of an American recession or "adjustment," as I think the Chancellor prefers to call it; but I do not think that this "adjustment"is going to be so very fierce. I do not take the gloomy view of Mr. Colin Clark, or of the right hon. Gentleman who opened this debate for the Opposition. I think that they are in a recession now, but I think that there are signs of their getting out of it, and I do not think there is
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    any reason to suppose that it is going to deepen to any great extent.
    This, however, is not going to solve our problem. We are now faced with the certainty of the termination of American economic aid, with increasing German and Japanese competition, and continued and natural and, if I may say so, increasing reluctance of the Americans to import manufactured goods. Why indeed should they import manufactured goods in large quantities from abroad? They do not import them because they do not want them, which is a pretty good reason; and that is why there is a good deal to be said for Senator Millikin, Mr. Reed and Mr. Simpson.
    The Strasbourg Plan was an attempt, by co-ordinating the economies of the sterling area and of Western Europe, to meet this situation. It appears to have been shelved. I regret that. It is much better than anything that has appeared in the Sydney communiqué and I have every reason for saying so. I think that it is a first-class document. The remedy, I believe, is to build in the non-dollar world, not an exclusive economic unit, but an economic unit and trading area capable of standing on its own feet, with adequate control over its dollar imports. We have not got that at the moment.
    The Chancellor referred to an article in the "Economist"about one and a half worlds. It said that maximum non-discriminatory trade within the non-dollar world should be accompanied by effective control over dollar imports for the area as a whole; and that there should beas much dollar trade as we can do, which really means that we should spend the dollars that we earn. That is quite sensible, but I do not think that this policy is necessarily leading in that direction. We are at present taking excessive dollar imports, and we are far too dependent on foreign imports of meat, tobacco and coarse grain.
    Mr. John Strachey: Wheat?
    Sir R. Boothby:And meat. I further think that the Chancellor might consider stopping the import of oats to this country. We can provide him with all the oats he wants from Scotland, at very reasonable prices. Can the right hon. Gentleman really contemplate the indefinite importation of Virginian tobacco

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    from the United States at the level we are now doing? It may reinforce his internal revenue, but I do not think that, as a nation, we can afford it. There is Rhodesian and Turkish tobacco; and if we do not like having it in our cigarettes, we shall just have to lump it.
    These proposals, in so far as they can be called proposals, because there are not many in the communiqué, mean less and not more discrimination. There was a very revealing sentence dropped by the Chancellor in his opening speech this afternoon when he said, "We are not standing for the abandonment of discrimination," and then there was a slight pause, and there came the words, "before we are ready."I think that discrimination is a good thing and not a bad thing. We should never abandon it, and it should go on for ever and ever in the modern world.
    All this means that the lure of dollars was still shining before their eyes at Sydney, and that the pursuit of dollars is to be continued at any cost. It also means a looser rather than a tighter control over imports. I confess that I find this a frightening prospect.May I give agriculture as one example? If we are now contemplating the free import of food into this country, without any control or protection at all, what is going to be the result of that, if we are then going to try to implement the provisions of the 1947 Agriculture Act? It is going to cost the taxpayers of this country so much money that the mind boggles at the thought. I do not think that we can do it.
    That is what is upsetting the farmers at the present time. I have been telling them that it is going to be quite all right; and that the Treasury will find all the money. I have said we shall import eggs at a shilling a dozen and then pay British farmers 4s. 6d. a dozen—£30 million a year; that we shall pay them another £80 millionfor this and £120 million for that, and will find the money. Somehow they do not quite believe it. That, I think, is what is worrying them at the moment. I confess that, in my quieter moments in the middle of the night, it sometimes worries me. I think that the Chancellor will really have to consider seriously whether he can go into free, uncontrolled markets for food from all over the world indefinitely, and at the same time keep
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    British agriculture at anything like its present level, still less expanding.
    What has happened? I think I know what has happened, and it is an extraordinary phenomenon. The Tory Party have in fact become the Liberal Party—that is what has happened. The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies)is going to take part in the debate, and he can make this point better than I can. I hope that he will not accuse me of any breach of confidence if I say that the Leader of the Liberal Party, when I met him in the Lobby the other day, seized me by the arm and said in his charming way, referring to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in terms almost of rapture, "Sir Robert Peel has come again."That is not quite fair upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because at the present moment the Tory benches are plastered with Sir Robert Peels. There are hundreds of them. There is one—the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman)—not very far from me. I am a little more confident about the hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) who sits on my right; he is becoming one of the few exceptions left.
    Sir Robert Peel was ahead of his time. There is no doubt about that. Are my hon. Friends, who have gone Liberal, quite sure that the modern Sir Robert Peels are not a little bit behind the times?Are they not a little afraid of becoming obsolete? It is a terrifying thought that the Tory Party should become obsolete; but it will happen if it goes on in the direction of Liberalism, because the truth of the matter is that in the 20th Century Liberals are interesting and rather lovable specimens from a bygone age. If my hon. Friends mean to go ahead with this business of becoming Liberals, they will soon find that out—and the electorate may take that view, too.
    In a debate on 21st December, 1934—it is a long time ago—I said:
    "I feel a little melancholy because some of us have been coming to this House for 10 years and pleading for a constructive policy on broad lines, and nobody has paid the slightest attention to us at any stage throughout those 10 years. Yet looking back, and judging by the march of events, I am surprised at the number of times I have been right, and different Governments have been wrong…The doctrine of infallibility has always applied

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    to the Treasury and the Bank of England."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st December, 1934; Vol. 296, c. 1560.]
    I have only one amendment which I wish to make this afternoon to that statement, and it is to substitute the figure "30 years" for the figure "10 years." Otherwise I stand by every word I said.
    I conclude with a quotation from a speech given by one who is not a Liberal, and who could never be accused of being a Liberal—the right hon. L. S. Amery. He has always preached the faith which brought me into the Tory Party. He said recently:
    "I have talked in terms of economics. But the issues go far deeper. What is at stake is nothing less than the whole future, not only of this country and of the Commonwealth, but of the civilised world. Is that world to be nothing better than a permanent battleground between two super-States, each with its somewhat crude ideology, each with its retinue of satellites and dependencies? Is the Commonwealth to dissolve, leaving its members to drift into one camp or another? Is all that great heritage of culture embodied in the ancient nations of Europe to cease to exercise its influence in world affairs? Surely there is a better way—the way of establishing a broader and sounder foundation by mutual co-operation, within each of these two groups and also between them."
    I think that is profoundly true. I believe we could build up a very powerful, very strong economic unit out of the sterling area and the Commonwealth, and in close co-operation with the countries of Western Europe. I think it would be very much better to use the capital of Germany to irrigate and develop the under-developed countries of the sterling area than in intensive international cut-throat competition between this country and Germany, which is what is now developing. That has always been my belief.
    Once more I am alone; and I am right. But that is no new position for me. I would say to my hon. Friends that although they may stray into the ancient moth-eaten paths of Liberal orthodoxy, one day they will return to thetrue faith of Tory democracy, which is the only faith for the modern age.
    6.54 p.m.
    Mr. H. A. Marquand: I shall not attempt to reply to the charming and entertaining speech of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby) for one very good reason, that the reply obviously needs to come
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    from the other side of the House and not from these benches and, for another good reason, that it is my ambition tonight to make the shortest speech which will be contributed to the debate.
    I rise to make only a short intervention but one which, I thought, might be of some importance in view of what I heard the Chancellor say earlier this afternoon. We all agreed with him, I am sure, when he laid very great stress upon the importance of economic development. There is no doubt about its importance, and I think he and other hon. Members will agree with me when I say that in this problem of economic development no part of the sterling area is more important than India. That is because India contains a population probably equal to that of the remainder of the sterling area put together, and because, unfortunately, the majority of that population lives at a standard of living very much below the level of most of the rest of the sterling area.
    India's development plans are vitally important. A year ago I was privileged to see a little of them and subsequently to study in more detail the Indian five-year plan. India, having a well-worked-out five-year plan, prepared by skilled and competent people, looked everywhere for the necessary resources to undertake as big a plan of development as she could in five years. She took into account possible help from the World Bank. She took into account her own ability to raise savings from her own population. She even took into account the possibility of using voluntary labour.
    But at the end of it all, the Indian Government were forced to the conclusion that to carry out the minimum plan which might be necessary to help them in the five years at least to hold a balance in the race of population against resources, some of their plan must rely on deficit financing, that is to say, upon an unbalanced budget.
    When it was realised in India that the plan depended in part upon deficit financing, people very properly and naturally said, "But deficit financing is inflationary. Is it not a very dangerous thing to incorporate this proposal of deficit financing in a plan?" The answer to that question is, of course, that if the deficit financing does not go far beyond the totalamount of the sterling balances upon which India

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    can draw, then the net effect should not be too seriously inflationary. I thought that was a reasonable answer to the criticism of India's five-year plan.
    Nevertheless, a year ago India was relying upon deficit financing and hoping to offset any inflationary effect of it by drawing down her sterling balances. Yet we were told this afternoon by the Chancellor, first of all, that the Indian budget is in balance and, secondly, that India has not been drawing down her sterling balances. Looked at strictly from a financial point of view, from the point of view of the old economics to which the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire, referred, that may be all very well; it may be a source of congratulation and pride, and as such the Chancellor seemed to refer to it this afternoon.
    I want to ask very seriously whether that is really so. If it be true that there is no deficit developing in the Indian budget, if it also be true that she is not drawing down her sterling balances, does it not mean that somehow or another and for some reason or another—I do not know the reason—she is failing to fulfil the plan according to expectations? If that were so, it would be disastrous. I am delighted to see the Economic Secretary to the Treasury shaking his head. His knowledge is much more up-to-date than mine on this point. That is why I have asked the question.
    My sole purpose was to ask the Government if they could say—if that is possible at the end of the debate, so much the better, but I would not really expect an answer this evening, I would only suggest that it be looked into—whether it could be that there was some failure on the part of the United Kingdom to supply capital goods and the like for which India had asked and, therefore, her sterling balances had not been drawn down. I should be horrified at the failure of India's modest five-year plan—modest in comparison with all that needs to be done or could be done in India. It is solely on that point that I wish to be assured, and I hope that my hon. Friends who wish to participate in the debate will forgive me for intervening.
    7.1 p.m.
    Mr. G. P. Stevens (Portsmouth, Lang-stone): I do not wish to follow the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) on the subject of the question which he has addressed, save to say that India's Finance Minister was, I understand, at Sydney and must therefore accept responsibility for the joint authorship of the communiqué we are discussing this evening.
    I wish to begin by supporting as enthusiastically as I can the suggestion of the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) when he said that he was quite certain that the people of the Dominions would greatly welcome more frequent visits of senior United Kingdom Ministers to those countries. From conversations I have had with representative people from the Dominions, I am quite certain that the hon. Gentleman is perfectly right. I hope that the Government will pay the greatest attention to that suggestion.
    I have been somewhat puzzled by the references which have been made, first by the right hon. Gentleman for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), and subsequently in all the Opposition speeches, to the "very vague nature" of the terms in which theSydney communiqué was couched—"full of clichés,""platitudes" and things of that kind. I was so puzzled that I did what very clearly some speakers had not done: I referred once again to the document in question.
    I find right at the beginning something which seemed to me neither platitudinous nor cliché-founded, if that is the correct term. I quote:
    "The object of our present meeting was to consolidate the economic progress made by the sterling area and the Commonwealth during the last twelve months…"
    There is nothing vague or platitudinous about that. It is a historical statement of fact. [An Hon. Member: "What does it mean?"] I am quite aware that it can, to certain Alice-through-the-Looking-Glass minds, have two different meanings.
    Sir R. Boothby:How does one consolidate progress?
    Mr. Stevens:This is a document with eight joint authors, and for them to have got so near to pure English as "consolidate" is something of a triumph.

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    To get away from that difficulty, if indeed it is a difficulty, I will continue my quotation:
    "During the last year the sterling area countries of the Commonwealth have made great strides towards the objectives which they set for themselves in January, 1952,.."
    My point of difficulty, puzzlement and wonder comes from my recollection that after the conferences of the Finance Ministers in Ottawa and this country over the past two years, the right hon. Member for Leeds, South and others, possibly even the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby), have on every single occasion referred to the "vague" and "platitudinous" terms of the communiqués. Some of us have not felt that kind of language was quite justified.
    I should have thought that the proof of the pudding was in the eating. Just as those critics of communiqués have been proved by subsequent events to have been entirely wrong on these previous occasions, so I believe they are wrong on this occasion. One of the difficulties is that most people can add two and two together without much difficulty, but I am not entirely certain that the average person is capable of distinguishing which is two and which is not.
    I have looked, not only through this communiqué, but also at the statement made by my right hon. Friend theChancellor in the House on 2nd February, and his subsequent answers to Questions; I listened to his speech this evening, and I then read the communiqué. I found two things there which did not seem to be in any way platitudinous or inconsequent but,on the contrary, to be pregnant with meaning and perfectly clear. I have, as I believe, recognised two and two, and I believe they make four.
    On 2nd February my right hon. Friend referred in the House to the difficulty of extending the area of Imperial Preference, a point which has been raised several times today. He said, in the course of a reply to a question after his statement, that the United Kingdom Government could not interfere with the sovereignty of individual Governments. I should have thought that that was pretty obvious. That was the first thing I got hold of. The next thing, which seemed to marry with it, was a phrase in the Sydney communiqué which refers to the provision which has been made in the past year by
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    the United Kingdom Government, and which makes this comment:
    "the provision of finance from the United Kingdom will substantially help its own exports."
    The Chancellor referred to that again this afternoon.
    I should have thought that those two things were very closely associated. I should have thought that, taken together, they indicated not that the Tory Party is going back to an effete Liberalism, if there is such a thing, but that, on the other hand, the pattern of inter-Imperial trade is changing and some new method is necessary in 1954 to stimulate and encourage Imperial trade which was not perhaps the appropriate method 30 or 35 years ago—I forget how long—when the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire first entered the House.
    It seems to me that trade may follow capital investment, and I see that the communiqué refers to the fact that:
    "In 1953 the United Kingdom Government authorised loans and grants totalling £120 millions for development in the sterling Commonwealth,…"
    area. Obviously, as it seems to me my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Sir W. Fletcher) rightly indicated, much larger sums will be necessary in 1954 and subsequently for Commonwealth development.
    That leads me to the point I wish to make, which is that whether that development is carried out by means of Government loans, Government grants or capital raised on the London market, all those capital funds come from the savings of the people and from no other source whatever, because the Government have no source of capital as such themselves. That saving can come only from the balance of the proceeds of the sales of production, after paying the necessary expenses for raw materials, wages, etc., and also through the abstention by the producers of unnecessary expenditure, however desirable it may be.
    Therefore, if what I have so far said is correct, it follows that if there is to be more capital for Commonwealth development, as I think there must be, two things must happen. First, there must be more production; and second, there must be a larger residual from the proceeds of that production. There is no doubt in my mind that there would be

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    more production and a larger residual and, therefore, more capital available for Commonwealth development, if the burden of direct taxation in this country were less severe than it is at the present time.
    As has so often been said previously, greater productivity requires more efficient machinery at higher prices. It is perfectly true that the restoration of the initial allowances in the last Budget were of some assistance in that respect, but what that fact overlooks is that a very great part of the trade of this country is the entrepôt trade, the merchanting trade carried on to a large extent without plant and machinery.The merchanting businesses are not helped in any way, or only to a very limited extent, by initial allowances on plant and machinery. Furthermore, it is quite obvious that, as turnover increases, so the necessity for greater stocks arises, as does the necessity for financing a greater number of debtors. Those are additional demands upon capital which initial allowances do nothing to help.
    I remember very well my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in a speech in 1952, saying that we could not invest a deficit in colonial development. That, of course, is perfectly true. Since then, as the communiqué, which is supposed to be so devoid of meaning, so accurately says, we have made enormous strides in the way of dealing with the balance of payments problem; but a great deal more progress is necessary. I welcome this communiqué from Sydney, and I most sincerely congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on the very able part he has played in the preliminary work and in the authorship of that document.
    We all want Commonwealth development. This seems to be a cliché's night out, and I see no reason why I should not be guilty of my own cliché. We all want Commonwealth development
    "in harmony in peace as we had unity in war."
    To my hon. Friends on this side of the House that is not in any shape or form a cliché. It is an indication of a belief we hold most passionately and sincerely. Today current trade follows yesterday's development loans. I believe the Chancellor would be doing the greatest possible
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    service to the provision of such loans by a reduction of direct taxation, which alone can make possible saving on the requisite scale.
    7.11 p.m.
    Mr. Clement Davies: I find myself in agreement with the speech of the hon. Member for Langstone (Mr. Stevens). I found the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his statement the other day as definite as one could expect a statement of that kind to be in a declaration of his policy. If I may, I should like to refer to one sentence in his statement which sums up his policy:
    "We confirmed the wisdom of our decision taken a year ago to work towards a freer system of trade and payments between the dollar and non-dollar world. Indeed, I know of no other approach which would keep the policies of the old and new Commonwealth countries and of Canada in step."—[Official Report, 2nd February, 1954; Vol. 523; c. 205.]
    What could be more definite and clear than that? His speech today was in elaboration of the policy therein declared.
    I welcome, as everyone does, these conferences which take place from time to time between members of the Commonwealth in which they can set out their position, their difficulties and their problems and see how far they canagree together. Is it possible to imagine them coming to any other agreement which would have kept them together, working for their common end and the common good of the world, than through the policy which has just been enunciated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Anything else is bound to lead to disagreements, jealousies, envies and all that kind of thing. They cannot be expected to bind themselves more closely together by agreements which may lead to quarrels and which could end in disaster.
    I welcome the statement which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman. I think that that is the policy which will lead not only to a strengthening of this country, but a restoration of our position in the world. By that means we strengthen the economic positionof the whole of the Commonwealth and, indeed, of the world, for we are brought together, as far as we can be, to assist one another.
    There is one matter which has defeated me ever since the free nations decided that each could not stand alone in defence of itself against an aggressor. They did

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    not learn that lesson from the Kaiser or even from Hitler. They learned it for the first time when aggression was threatening from Russia. They agreed that they could not stand alone, and so they came together and formed N.A.T.O. At the same time they left standing all the restrictions on trade between one another, and they failed to remove those things which cause irritation, quarrels, jealousies and envies. They still exist.
    What the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is saying is: if we are to maintain our common defence, we also ought to remove all restrictions on the movement of trade between one another. That undoubtedly would lead to a better flow of trade and better conditions for all the people wherever they may be. I agree with the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) that there is great need to assist the people who are not as well off as we are. When I hear that being said from this side of the House, I also recollect what was said the other day from the same Labour benches, namely, that the people should not be allowed to purchase in the cheapest market, but they should be guided as to what they should get and that they should pay more for it. How that is going to help them in their development, I do not know.
    I understand the policy of the right hon. Gentleman, but he was challenged by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), who asked what the Government's policy was, saying that we were entitled to know. I should have thought that that policy was plain enough, but what I should like to know, standing objectively between the two sides, is, what is the policy of the Opposition? As I understand it now, this policy of free trade, which has been enunciated by the Chancellor as being the desirable end to which he is working, is anathema to the Opposition.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: It is not the end but his immediate prospect which is anathema to us.
    Mr. Davies: Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman what the Labour Party are asking for. They suggest that the Chancellor should not pursue his policy of allowing free purchases to be made.
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    It is said that we would lose control if we did that, and control is needed in order to maintain prices in this country. But the people here will have to pay for that either in increased prices or in increased taxation.
    I gather that the immediate policy of the Opposition is to increase prices and costs. Yet there is hardly a day in this House when I do not hear a challenge flung across the Floor about the rising cost of living. The country is entitled to know which is the true policy of the Opposition. Is it that they want, as obviously the Chancellor wants, freer and more open markets, trade with every country, increased export trade with purchase in the cheapest markets we can possibly find of raw materials and even of food? Is that the policy to which the Opposition object? If it is, then they had better say so and they had better say also that it will mean dearer raw materials and dearer food.
    One other matter which I wish to mention is the speech of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby). I have felt for some time that although there is no coalition on the Front Benches between Government and Opposition, there is a very considerable coalition among hon. Members. The hon. Gentleman made his position perfectly plain tonight. He has been sitting on the wrong side of the House for many years. Undoubtedly he said tonight that he is the planner of planners. I do not believe in that kind of planning. The hon. Member seems to know better than the ordinary person what is good for the ordinary person, what he ought to buy, where he ought to buy it, where he ought to manufacture and everything else of that kind. There is the true Socialist. It is perfectly obvious where that is leading.
    Sir R. Boothby:I am not a Liberal. That is all I said.
    Mr. Davies: There was one matter which I learnt from the hon. Gentleman. The rest I did know. Although I have known the hon. Gentleman now for 25 years, I did not realise that one had to be careful even in a private conversation lest he might use it for his own advantage. That is something to which we are not accustomed in this House. I hope that I shall never hear it again from the hon. Gentleman or from anybody else. What I

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    said about the Chancellor of the Exchequer is perfectly true. It may well be that he is now taking up a line which was taken up to the advantage of this country by Sir Robert Peel. Now the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire joins with the Opposition. Shades of Philip Snowden and all that he meant to the Labour Party when he was their great leader in economic matters.
    The hon. Gentleman now joins with them in considering that free trade and all the Liberal doctrines were lethal. One recalls what was the position of this country 115 years ago when Sir Robert Peel changed the tide. Ports were opened, trade began to flow, unemployment ceased, wages began to grow and the standard of living was raised till it was second to none in the world. Lethal! This country was the creditor of all countries and to it every one of the protectionist nations, even the United States itself, owed money. This country was the insurer of the world, the carrier of the world, and the one and only country that could afford to stand alone. It stood alone thanks to the policy that was then adopted.
    The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire joins all the others in saying. "I know better than those pioneers, those great people, manufacturers, leaders of industry and so on—who went here, there and everywhere and started these new industries and built up and strengthened the country."
    Sir R. Boothby: First, I should like to apologise to the right hon.and learned Gentleman very sincerely if I quoted what he did not wish from a private conversation. It seemed to me merely an apt, amusing, indeed a brilliant, observation—not to be taken very seriously. In reference to what he is saying now, I want to make it clear—I thought I had made it clear in my speech—that I never said that the policy of Sir Robert Peel was wrong for the 19th century. I think that it was right for the 19th century. I say that it is wrong for the 20th century.
    Mr. Davies: I should say that what was right for that century is right for this century when the world is confronted with these enormous difficulties again. What has been largely the cause of all the disputes there have been between the nations which have led to two world wars and
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    the destruction of millions of lives? It has been this jealousy, envy and hatred brought about by extreme nationalism, built by these barriers against one another until at last there is a cry for elbow room. Is this the moment when this country should follow Bismark in starting a Zollverein which bred a Kaiser and a Hitler and two world wars?
    The one and only way in which we can bring people together is to open the gates of free trade with a free movement of people. That is what the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor has as his aim. It is a way which will not only improve the conditions of the world, but will bring about the peace which we all want.
    7.27 p.m.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: This is a most important debate and I am surprised that throughout more hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have not been present. I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) is in his place. I always listen with the greatest interest and attention, very often with admiration, to what he has to say. I had hoped that today we would get a constructive speech. He started off in an entertaining way with a reference to clichés. As he has not been here all day, I will tell him that nearly everyone else has mentioned them. I recall having an argument with the late Dylan Thomas, the poet, when he said to me, "Do not talk to me in clichés."That was the end of the argument. I know just how my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer must have felt.
    But reference to clichés was not very relevant to the debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South complained about the bad grammar of the report, and that was not very relevant to the debate either. He went on to be critical of the publicity and he read interminable excerpts from the Australian newspapers. As one who reads the "Daily Herald" every day, I am sure that he, too, knows that many reports can be put in newspapers which do not quite correctly reflect the true situation.
    What else did the right hon. Gentleman do? He belittled the achievements of the Chancellor. He added nothing constructive and he made—I think his has been the only party political speech—party

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    points out of the Australian wheat situation and Imperial Preference. He seemed to be a sort of hopeful prophet of doom with the hope that everything will not go right. I am sorry that we did not hear something, as we sometimes do, that was worth listening to.
    Let me join issue with—touse his own expression—the interesting and rather lovable specimen from a bygone age, the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby), who talked about Imperial Preference. I should like also to bring in at the same time the names of other hon. Members who have spoken, including the former Chancellor of the Exchequer the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, and, I think, the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick), who both spoke of the necessity for State intervention and guidance in matters of Imperial Preference.
    I am, maybe, naïve, but it seems to me that it takes two to make an agreement and that we in this House keep on expecting our Front Bench—whether we sit on the Government side or not—to make those agreements which we would like to make, forgetting there is some other party to them. I am in favour of Imperial Preference where it is possible, but any of us who have tried to negotiate a contract know that it must be favoured by both sides. We are in a changing world and all too frequently, I am afraid, this House forgets that fact about international agreements.
    The right hon. Member for Leeds, South asked whether Imperial Preference was a fact. I who have something to do with selling goods abroad can tell him that, in fact, and not as a matter of speeches in this House, Imperial Preference is a fact, and that where it exists it is bringing business to this country and work to our people.
    The hon. Member for Uxbridge expressed surprise that we could no longer base our economy on that of the United States and that we could no longer rely on the United States. I do not know whether he believes he has suddenly discovered a new thought, because such a thought has been in the minds of most business people for a very long time.
    We have to decide whether we should set as our goal independence of the United States or whether we should set
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    ourselves another goal which I believe we can achieve. If we take the sterling area and the dollar area, with all the resources of manpower and raw materials in each today, we can set ourselves the goal of making the sterling area the strongest currency in the world. That is an achievable object. But it can only be achieved if we have an expansionist policy.
    Let us see how this expansionist policy is going to work in practice. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor spoke about India. If anybody tries to sell goods in India today, they will find that the bar is frequently up. We cannot get our goods into India, but before we criticise, let us look at the point of view of the Indians. They have an unemployment problem, a vast number of people who are still living on a very low standard of life, and they want to start Indian enterprises. Who is going to blame them? Certainly not I.
    Therefore, our job in this country is not necessarily to turn away because we cannot sell our goods in India. Our job is to invest our money in India, because, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said, if we do we shall sooner or later get our goods into India, and by raising the standard of living of the people of India we shall create bigger and bigger markets for ourselves.
    That being so, we must set up in this country the conditions in which we can put our money into those parts of the Colonies and those parts of the world which, for reasons that are perfectly sound and logical, cannot always accept our goods. On the other hand, there is one country about which I wish to make a slight criticism.
    The Chancellor spoke of import control and said that we should pay tribute when any country takes such strict remedies as, for instance, Pakistan has had to take. But what is the position in South Africa? A company with which I am associated in South Africa has on the books an order for South Africa for £4,000 worth of ordinary commercial goods made in this country. The company cannot get an import licence, and nothing that I have been able to do has enabled them to get one. I have to base my trade prospects for this year on the assumption that imports into South Africa during 1954 will be 90 per cent. of those of last year. If I were satisfied that it was

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    right to pay a tribute to a country, as I do to Pakistan and India, for putting up barriers, then I would pay tribute to South Africa.
    I was talking to a firm in Germany the other day. The Germans are not having a great deal of difficulty in getting their goods into South Africa. The position in South Africa is that, for racial reasons, they are more friendly with Germany than with ourselves, and because they are customers of the United States oil industry, the United States are getting what I believe to be a better share than we are of the South African market. Therefore, if we are going to have Imperial Preference and a friendly relationship with the Commonwealth, let us be very careful that we give a fair deal all round I am not happy about South Africa.
    Mention has been made of German competition. It is easy to complain and to make statements, but it is difficult to find an answer. As I see it, the problem of German competition is this. We taxpayers in Britain and our factories and the taxpayers in the N.A.T.O. countries and their factories are having to support troops in Germany and to make sacrifices in order to pay for armaments. Those troops and those armaments are protecting the West Germany economy, with the result that the West German taxpayer and the West Germany factory have no such burdens to bear. The Germans can say, "Let us go all over the world and sell our goods. We are not paying anything towards our own protection."
    Sir R. Boothby:This is a very interesting point, but I am not sure that it is not fallacious. Does not the hon. Gentleman remember that the period between 1933 and 1938, when German trade expanded faster than ever before in history, was the time of their greatest re-armament work? The two very often go together.
    Mr. Browne: I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman, but I can only see things as they are today. We do not want to job backwards to between the wars. The position has changed.
    The hon. Member for Uxbridge talked about how close the world had become with the speed of travel. I still make the point that it will be a very good day for British industry when Germany can either
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    become a member of the E.D.C. or play her fair part inthe defence of the West. In that connection, the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) spoke of the restrictions among the N.A.T.O. countries and hoped that better times would come. I can tell him, having had the pleasure of being there recently, that N.A.T.O. is a real and living thing and is going to spread through the free nations of the West. Let us have no fear for N.A.T.O. The only trouble about it is that it must put first things first, and the first thing is defence.
    For my last point, I want to draw a sort of strange parallel, and I hope that hon. Members will hear me out before they comment. Japan has recently been the subject of debate in this House, and doubts have been expressed about the necessity of ourselves and the Commonwealth accepting Japanese goods. I want to draw a sort of parallel—perhaps a foolish one—between the position of Japan and the position of this country today vis-à-vis United States trade.
    The position of Japan is that she is a "Western,"a part of the free world. She is denied her traditional trade in China, and therefore we have to ask ourselves—I am sure all the free nations ask themselves this—whether we are to allow Japan to trade with us or whether we are to force her to go back behind the Iron Curtain to trade?
    What is our position in this country? We now have the recommendations of the Randall Report. I am sorry that the Randall Report was not couched in firmer terms instead of trying to seek a compromise where none was possible. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South said that Congress would not follow the Randall Report. Is he sure of this? The position which America has to face over that report is the same as we have to face over Japanese exports. We are between the Iron Curtain countries and the United States. We, like Japan, have a far greater population than can live upon our territory, so we must seek an outlet for our goods. If America puts up too big a barrier against our exports to her, where shall we look? Without doubt we shall look towards the Iron Curtain countries.
    Dr. Barnett Stross: May I interrupt before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point? He has

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    offered two alternatives for Japan and has drawn an analogy between Japan and ourselves. The alternatives are, shall Japan trade with us or go behind the Iron Curtain? Will the hon. Gentleman agree that we should be doing more to see that the traditional market of Japan, namely, China, should be open to her now in order that she should get a fairer crack of the whip?
    Mr. Browne: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, and that was the point I was about to make. Those who control affairs in the United States must realise that we in this country have to find an outlet for our goods. I do not believe in the nonsense that we must trade with one side of the world but not with the other. This may not be a popular view, but it is realistic. Supposing we exported goods behind the Iron Curtain or Japan did the same with China, and a war began. I hope war will not occur, and with the increasing strength of atomic armaments I am sure it will not. But with modern warfare one atom bomb would blow to pieces the goods we had supplied, and in the meantime we would have had the work for our people. That is the view I take. I believe that America must open her markets to us. America must say to herself, "Shall we help Europe or drive her further to the East?"I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the time will come when we must see both sides of the picture, when we must buy and sell in both markets.
    I tried to go into Russia because I felt that we should be thinking about selling certain goods there and that, before we complained about being unable to sell goods from our side of the Iron Curtain, we should consider the Russian viewpoint. I went to the Russian Embassy and said that I was prepared to go to Russia at my own expense because I wanted to see what things were like there and if there was a market for my goods. I could not get a visa. I am not tinged with violent anti-Communism, I am an ordinary, humble back-bencher. One would think that I was the sort of person they would want to visit Russia, but they would not let me in. So before we try to rely too much on trade behind the Iron Curtain, we must realise that from the way they behave they apparently do not want to open their markets.
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    I end by congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what he has done, and I say that I am prepared to follow him right to the end of the road.
    7.44 p.m.
    Mr. Anthony Crosland: It is a great relief to be able to follow the hon. Gentleman the Member for Govan (Mr. J. N. Browne) instead of following one or two hon. Members who spoke previously. Had I to follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), by the end of his speech I should not have regained my breath after hearing a statement of the doctrine of pure Liberalism such as I do not remember either to have read or heard since I was a student of the history of economic doctrines. Also I do not think I could have regained my breath after hearing enunciated as a serious statement of policy that those policies which were right in the 19th century must also be right in the 20th century. If that was a serious reflection of the point of view of the Liberal Party today, even the rather small increase in their percentage poll in yesterday's by-election should not be too much of an encouragement to them.
    I am also grateful not to have had to follow the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby), because the effect of his shattering self-confidence on me by the time he has sat down is to make me hopelessly nervous, doubtful and self-critical. There is also the political difficulty that one is in a position of agreeing with so much of what was said by the hon. Gentleman that it is difficult to debate with him.
    There was one link between the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery and the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire, the latter of whom referred to the advisers of the Treasury who go on and on through every Chancellor, Labour or Conservative. In listening to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I seriously thought that there was only one place in the country at the moment where those ideas would seem perfectly natural, and that was in certain sections of the Treasury. Outside the Treasury, and outside the Liberal Party, I do not think anyone at all holds them in the contemporary world.

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    I want to find out from whoever is to reply whether or not any fundamental decision was taken at Sydney on the future of the sterling area. By that I do not mean about the future of Imperial Preference because, with respect to the hon. Gentleman who spoke before me, I share the view of one or two others who have said that under present-day conditions, as opposed to pre-war conditions, Imperial Preference is not the main thing which determines how much trade there is inside the sterling area. I believe that depends now much less on Imperial Preference and more on the import controls of the Governments concerned.
    I am much more concerned with the general question of what attitude we now take to the future of the sterling area. I ventured to arguein a book a year ago that the sterling area from 1945 up to the present time has worked extremely favourably for certain of the independent Dominions, extremely unfavourably for the Colonies and rather unfavourably for the United Kingdom. This is not an original view, it is quite widely held.
    Broadly speaking, the independent Dominions have been subsidised mainly by the Colonies and, to a certain extent, by this country. Clearly one could say that if things were going well in the economic field, if the outlook were genuinely set rair, as the Chancellor thinks it is, this would be a state of affairs which one could continue to envisage. It might be argued that it was worth while for the political advantages of retaining the sterling area in its present form. On the whole, I think that is a plausible argument provided that things are set fair in the economic world. However, it seems to me that things look very different if we are likely to be faced with an American recession.
    Again the Chancellor was extremely optimistic about that, as are the economic advisers of President Eisenhower. I think we can all agree that there is no point in debating across the Floor of the House whether there will be a bad recession or not, because none of us knows and no one person's opinions are any better than another's. What we can say is that there is obviously a risk of a rather more serious recession than we now have and therefore we should decide what we shall do if this risk should materialise.
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    In passing, I sincerely hope that the phrases about convertibility, which I recognise that any Commonwealth communiqué must contain, are as meaningless this year as ever. It would be a terrifying thought if, in the face of the Randall Report, and in the face of the possibility of an American recession, anyone in Her Majesty's Government, or in any of the other sterling area Governments, were seriously proposing to move in the direction of convertibility at the moment. I take it, however, that those phrases are there to satisfy the Treasury officials and not because they are strongly held by Her Majesty's Government.
    Suppose that this recession comes, suppose that we have a recession roughly on the model of 1949, which a lot of people expect. I do not take the alarmist view that this will have anything like as bad an effect on the sterling area as the 1949 recession did. I think that a number of things have changed since then. In 1949, American stocks of imported materials from the sterling area were unnaturally high. At the moment they are quite low. In 1949 that recession was superimposed on a falling level of gold reserves in the rest of the world, whereas at the moment those gold reserves are rising. In 1949 the recession came at the top of a boom in raw material prices, whereas the boom burst a year ago and there has been a good deal of adjustment of prices to a different situation.
    For these and other reasons, probably a recession of that sort which most people seem to expect would have a less serious effect on the sterling area than it then did. But there still will be an effect, and a serious one. My main object is to try to find out what attitude the sterling area took at the Sydney Conference.
    It does not seem to me that there has been any particular divergence in speeches made on the subject as to what we ought to do if there is a more serious American recession. We are all agreed that every single sterling area country should be encouraged to discriminate against the dollar whilst keeping trade amongst themselves at the highest possible level. Some want it done by Imperial Preference, others by import control. That does not matter. The essential thing is to keep up the trade within the sterling area by discriminating, as far as we can, against dollar goods.

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    The question is, will this happen? We know it will happen as far as the Colonies are concerned, because the wretched Colonies have virtually no control whatsoever over what they do with sterling balances, import policies, or anything else. So we know that they will discriminate in this way. My main concern is about what the independent countries, the Dominions in the sterling area will do. It is quite likely—and the Chancellor has said nothing to disagree with this—that they will be willing to discriminate against goods from America. This idea of discrimination against goods from America has sunk fairly deep, and even the present Chancellor is willing to discriminate, at any rate against manufactured dollar goods. So I have no hesitation about that point, though I am doubtful whether the South African Government will be willing even to do that.
    But, to look on the bright side, let us assume that the rest of the Dominions will do it. This might protect our gold reserves and help us to keep up trade within the sterling area if we could lose gold only to America. But the trouble is that we can equally well lose gold to Western Europe through E.P.U. If the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations would bring his cultured, academic mind to bear on such mundane matters as commodities and things of that kind, I should like him to tell us something about the relationship between the sterling area and Europe in the event of an American recession. I am very much afraid that if the recession gets worse, sterling area raw material prices will fall, Europe's imports of raw material will fall in value, and that very soon after the coming of the recession we shall have a very serious deficit with E.P.U., and that if nothing is done about it we shall lose gold to E.P.U. possibly at a more rapid rate than to the United States.
    This will happen very quickly and we shall lose a lot of gold. The Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out that if the deficit becomes larger we shall get into a tranche where we shall be paying something like 70 per cent. to 80 per cent. of our debt to Europe in gold. This can only be avoided either by the rest of the sterling area saying "We are willing to discriminate against E.P.U. as well as
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    against America," which would be one solution, or by E.P.U. being willing to give more liberal credit terms to deficit countries than it is now willing to give. I feel very strongly that this is perhaps the most serious part of what our balance of payment crisis will be if the recession becomes serious. Either there must be discrimination by the rest of the sterling area against E.P.U. as well as against goods from North America or else we must have an assurance that Her Majesty's Government are pressing, day in and day out, on E.P.U. the need for a more liberal credit policy. It will not be the Germans or the Belgians who will press for it. They want a less liberal policy in E.P.U., so no one pretends that this is an easy job for the Chancellor. But I am convinced that one or other of these alternatives must be our policy.
    If neither of these things happen, if we cannot persuade E.P.U. to give more liberal credit terms and we cannot persuade the rest of the sterling area to discriminate, except against goods from America, then by far the larger part of the American recession will fall on Britain. The major drain on gold reserves will come from Australia, New Zealand, India and so on, and we shall have a situation in which the whole burden of import discrimination and restriction will fall on Britain, and a very large part of the drain on gold reserves will come as a result of policies in the rest of the sterling area. Nothing was said about this in the Sydney communiqué and, if possible, I should like to have a statement on what view was taken in Sydney of the proper behaviour of the sterling area in the event of a recession.
    Mr. Maudling:If the sterling area as a whole discriminates against the dollar area as a whole and the E.P.U. area, it will be very difficult to find an alternative source of supply of a large number of commodities. Could the hon. Member make any suggestions about that?
    Mr. Crosland:Everybody agrees, including the Chancellor, that we are going to discriminate against North America, and discrimination does not mean that wehave no imports from North America but that we cut them to the minimum and try to increase them somewhere else. With regard to E.P.U., we cannot say that any large part of our vital raw materials and food supplies

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    come to us from Western European countries. It would ease our position if they did. So this degree of discrimination will not deprive us of essential imports. But in the event of things going rapidly worse, I should like to be assured that some decision has been taken about these matters, because this is the basic question of sterling area policy.
    There are one or two other questions which I should like to ask on matters which are more in the competence of the British Government acting alone. First of all, there is the question of commodity agreements and the purchase of commodities. Whatever the Chancellor says about the Randall Commission, the section of that Report dealing with commodity agreements has put paid once and for all to buffer stock agreements and the like. It means that we can now stop talking and writing about international commodity schemes. They are finished. Nevertheless, it would be still extremely useful if, within the sterling area, arrangements could be made for temporary stockpiling of certain goods during the American recession. It would be extremely reassuring to know whether there were discussions in Sydney about the possibility of stockpiling within the sterling area, mainly by the British Government.
    Secondly, there are questions about commodity markets. On this subject I thought my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) was devastating. It is a curious psychological fact that so many hon. Members opposite at one and the same time insist on a return to private purchase and preach Imperial Preference. It is very hard to have them both at the same time.
    My right hon. Friend was mainly concerned with the question of preference for Australian wheat. I am concerned with a different question. Supposing the recession does get worse. Supposing a drain of gold begins, and everyone gets what might be termed a "crisis atmosphere." When that happened in the past under State trading, it was comparatively easy for the Department concerned to say, in the case of the various commodities, "Right, play down on the level of imports."
    What is to happen when these things are returned to private traders? Supposing these traders form the view that
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    the crisis is so serious that sterling may be devalued and that another severe import restriction may be imposed in the course of a month or two months'time? Is it not possible that they will rush to buy, and that in effect they will be speculating against sterling by so doing? Is it not possible that there will be a rush to get in before restrictions are imposed, which will accelerate any drain on the gold reserves? The question to which we must have an answer tonight is how rapidly, if need be, can import controls be re imposed on these commodity markets? It is vital that we should know, because the Government have been dismantling those controls at the wrong moment if an American slump does come in the future.
    The third question I should like to ask is what arrangements have been made—or whether any have been made—about our credit policy and lending policy generally in the event of a recession? I suppose that no one would dispute that if a serious recession occurs, and if we have—as we may have—unemployment in export industries here, the last thing we would wish to do would be to have to move unemployed labour out of those industries into something quite different. In other words, we have all got away from the old-fashioned public works attitude. No one is convinced any more that we should, for example, take married women from Lancashire and put them on to building roads in Kent. Most people now take the commonsense view that we should keep people in the same industries. We do not want to return to the situation which obtained in 1945 when so many people had been moved because of the war, out of coal and cotton that it was found exteremely hard to get them back.
    This means that we must try to increase our exports over what they would otherwise be by a generous policy of lending. The most obvious scope for this is in the Colonies. This would be an ideal moment for allowing the Colonies—and we have done very well out of them, though the Dominions have done even better—to run down their sterling balances in an organised but substantial way. They would be better off, because they would have more goods. We would benefit because exports which we lost in other markets would be made good by a higher level of exports to the colonial markets.

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    That course of action would prove to be of mutual benefit both to the Colonies and to ourselves.
    I hope we shall have a much more liberal policy so far as sterling is concerned. At the moment we have made sterling much too scarce. One of the main reasons why exports are hard to sell is because, in deference to the orthodox advice from the Treasury, we have made sterling much too scarce. Some of the difficulties in overseas markets are due to the impassioned desire which exists in certain quarters that sterling should be as scarce as possible. That would not be a right policy to pursue if a recession comes. We should adopt a policy of making sterling available freely to anyone using it to buy our goods.
    Mr. Maudling:The purpose of keeping sterling relatively scarce is to make and to maintain it as a strong currency, which is what this Government have done and what the party opposite failed to do.
    Mr. Crosland:Of course, I realise that the purpose is to make sterling a strong currency. But in the end we could make it as strong as we like by having no imports and giving no credit at all. Then sterling would be irresistible because there would not be any of it. It is a question of where we draw the line and strike the balance between strength of currency on the one side and the level of the export trade on the other.
    In conclusion, I would say that the Sydney Conference may have done some good. We all hope that it has, but it is impossible to say. I do not wish to repeat everything which has been said about the clichés in the communiqué, but we do not know what happened there. Above all, I hope it may have included some really useful and extensive discussions as to how the sterling area is to react to the problem of an American recession. To use an expression original enough to appeal even to the Chancellor, we are facing rough seas ahead, and I sincerely hope that he has his hand on the tiller.
    8.5 p.m.
    Major H. Legge-Bourke: It is not often that I intervene in debates upon economic matters, but I do so this evening mainly because I feel that the
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    speech we have had from the Chancellor and the communiqué from the Sydney Conference marks a turning point, not only in the history of this country, but also in the history of the Conservative Party.
    I believe that those of us who have supported Imperial Preference, as I have, may occasionally have been thought to be attempting to create a sort of closed economy, believing that trade takes place with Commonwealth countries and between Commonwealth countries and that what happens outside that ring can go hang so far as the Commonwealth is concerned. Though some of my hon. Friends may have thought along those lines, I certainly have not. I have always felt that Imperial Preference was one means to an end and that, possibly, there were other means to the same end.
    So far as I understood it, Imperial Preference served a very useful purpose between 1932 and, shall we say, 1937. In 1938 something happened. An Anglo-American trade agreement was signed, and if the war had not come when it did, a great deal of the good done at Ottawa would have been undone, because it re-established the unconditional Most-Favoured-Nation Clause in trade agreements. The moment that obtains it is quite impossible to operate Imperial Preference as it was operated from 1932 to 1937.
    I believe that in the past Imperial Preference saved this country from a prolongation of the agony of the terrible slump in the 1930s. There is no question that it helped to restore us. But from 1938 the tendency was to go back and, if the war had not come when it did, we might have found that in a few years we had lost all we gained as a result of the Ottawa Conference.
    In the light of this Conference, it is important to consider whether the same things which brought us into the difficulties we encountered in the early 1930s are likely to occur again. The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) has spoken a good deal tonight about the possibility of a greater recession than would seem to be expected by the Chancellor. The hon. Gentleman mentioned such things as unemployment again in the export industry. I look upon slumps and wars in the same light

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    so far as forecasting is concerned. Both of them are rather like duodenal ulcers—the more you worry about them the more chance there is that you will have one.
    Dr. Stross Dr. Stross rose—
    Major Legge-Bourke: I cannot give way just now. We should not be talking about the likelihood of a slump or of unemployment.
    If I may make one criticism of what has been said by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South, it would be that he gave me the impression, perhaps unintentionally, that he was speaking solely in terms of our total trade now instead of having his eye on further expansion. We should be talking about how to extend this trade even further and getting the annual turnover in export trade going up and up. Surely that is what our main aim ought to be.
    From 1932 until 1937 we achieved that process through Imperial Preference, but it has become abundantly clear since the war, and certainly as a result of what we have heard about the Sydney Conference, that we cannot establish preferences unless there are other countries with whom to establish them. If, as well, we have the American insistence on no new preferences being maintained under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, it is obvious that Imperial Preference will not be the solution to our problem of achieving expansion. I will now give way to the hon. Member.
    Dr. Stross: It is the medical analogy that brings me to my feet. I thought my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) was merely saying that forethought was desirable. Forethought is certainly desirable in respect of a duodenal ulcer, if only to prevent perforation and peritonitis.
    Major Legge-Bourke:I appreciate the hon. Member's medical advice and will certainly bear it in mind in future. To apply what he said to this debate, I am not suggesting that a great deal of fore-thought should not be given to the matter, but I am not at all sure that we are right, in an open debate, to put fears unnecessarily into people's minds, for that is the danger of our talking too much in the House about the possibility of a slump
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    and unemployment. The Chancellor indicated that there is a possibility of a recession, but my impression from his speech was that he believed that it is not likely to be a very big one. Let us hope that is right, and let us concentrate our efforts on how we are to solve the problem of expanding our trade further and keeping our turnover well up. That is the main task towards which we should be directing our efforts tonight.
    It appears that, for various reasons, at the present moment Imperial Preference beyond its present level is not a practical proposition from the point of view of getting what we want. What I welcomed most of all about the Chancellor's speech today was that, in the latter part of it, he showed that we are apparently proposing to do something which I regard as almost a revolution in political and economic thinking. We are going to build on the foundation of the old preferences. We are not going to take away anything. We are building a new structure—I can only place it under the heading of "reciprocity"—in a form which is not tied to tariffs as Imperial Preference was.
    Reciprocity in the Commonwealth can be of many different types. The type which we appear to have chosen is that of investment in the Commonwealth, whereby we expand the business and manufacturing activity of the Commonwealth as a whole, and from that create new wealth, which is what the Commonwealth wants. I believe that to be one of the most important things that has ever been openly declared as a policy. I rank it as equally important in the history of Commonwealth affairs as the change in 1932 from the Free Trade outlook to the purely Protectionist outlook. We have opening before us a new prospect in which we shall help our Commonwealth to build up secondary industries in countries without such industries, where until now we have relied on preferences.
    I am sure the Chancellor is right in saying that if we invest in the Commonwealth in this way we shall in the end increase the markets for our own manufacturers. It may take a year or two, but that has never discouraged us in the past If, in the increasing competition of the world, we are to have a hope of making our way and creating new wealth—it is only through creating new wealth that we can hope to build prosperity for our

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    future generations—we now have an ideal way of doing it. We have a foundation on which to start, and we must build upon it. We have a great association which has been held together in the commercial field very largely by preferences. In building on that foundation, we are now doing something new which opens up visions of almost unlimited future possibilities.
    There are difficulties, of course, and the biggest difficulty of all is to determine where the capital is to come from. I hope that, by the end of the debate, we shall have been told a little more about what is in the Government's mind in this respect. I hope that as much as possible will come from this country, but those of us who have listened to debates on such matters as the International Bank and various colonial projects in the past, have been forced to face the unpleasant fact that this country has not as much ready capital to plant where it would like to plant it as it used to have.
    All I hope is that we shall not find ourselves bogged down in technical difficulties about getting people in this country to support, say, a finance corporation here because it is found that the money cannot be moved to the places where it is wanted. I want to see our great organisations in the City of London playing a very full part in this matter, but in so far as they are not able to meet the need adequately, we should at least call in aid some of the international support to which we may be said to be entitled as a result of all that we have done to bring about international co-operation since the war.
    There is one very complicating factor in all this. The Americans have for far too long laboured under a very terrible delusion that, in getting together as a trading organisation, whether by preferences or other means, the British Commonwealth will automatically threaten the United States economy. I do not believe that is so. Certainly, between 1932 and 1937 American trade was not contracting, although ours was expanding. The United States are based on a federal organisation, and it seems to me that because of this—I do not wish to insult them in any way—they have almost a pathological terror of any form of colonialism.
    As a result of that, the United States seem to assume that if the British
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    Commonwealth gets together, it will automatically hurt the United States. I believe that to be absolute nonsense. I am sure that it is in the interests of the United States, just as much as it is in our interests, that the Commonwealth should be as thriving a trading organisation as possible. It seems to me that the idea which I see incorporated in the proposal, of launching out rather more widely than we have done before in colonial and Commonwealth development on a reciprocal basis, is the answer to many of the American doubts. Let no one suppose that having reciprocity inside the Commonwealth means that the Commonwealth is not prepared to have reciprocal arrangements with countries outside it.
    We have the opportunity now of not only perhaps finding a means of bringing together those who in the past have believed in Free Trade and Protection in our own country, but also those who believe in the same overseas. If this matter is presented in a correct manner, I believe it can do a great deal to banish forever that anxiety which the United States seem to have that the British Commonwealth as a thriving organisation is threatening their trade.
    There is one other factor which also occurs in the United States which I think is bedevilling a great deal of the effort, not only in the Commonwealth, but also in Europe. America is very much wedded to the idea of federalism. Since I first came into the House, I have consistently opposed all ideas of federalism—whether we were in or out of it ourselves—in Europe. I believe that one of the most restricting forms of international pressure that can be brought to bear on any economy is for a Power outside it as powerful as America is to try to put pressure on European countries in order to get them to federate. By doing that it tends to make those countries take what I can only regard as Socialist measures in order to protect their economies. It tends to bring their Governments into everything instead of letting free initiative and enterprise operate in the way they ought.
    If we are to go ahead with this great Commonwealth plan that obviously is in the minds of those who conferred at Sydney, I think it important that at the same time we should not forget

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    what is happening in Europe. The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South referred to the risk of our getting damaged by E.P.U. America would have liked us originally, after the war, to have gone into a European federation because America believes in federation. I believe it is now being done differently. The idea is first to do it through coal and iron and steel, then perhaps defence and so on, and to finish with apolitical federal union in Europe. If that were to happen, it would undermine any chance of this great proposal which the Chancellor has put before us today ever succeeding. We cannot possibly get involved to that extent in Europe, where our political sovereignty would be lost.
    The best hope the Americans have of this country playing its full part and of the Commonwealth playing their full part in extending world trade and keeping the peace of the world is for America to see that we in this country are allowed to preserve the greatest possible extent of sovereignty we can consistent with our military alliances. That is the clue to the peace of the world, always has been and always will be—that we must have the greatest measure of national sovereignty to suit our own people consistent with the military alliances necessary to our own security.
    What I feel is here very important is that it should be made quite clear from the start that this Commonwealth development programme that is to be worked out mustnot be on a federal basis. It must not be done with any sense of compulsion about it whatsoever. It must be done with the free will of all the countries involved in it, and those countries must be regarded as the Dominions have been regarded ever since they became Dominions, as sovereign, autonomous States. Because we think that certain things must be done in certain regions in the world we must not think that every country in those regions must automatically federate with all the others.
    I believe this federal idea is one of the greatest threats to the peace of the world of the future. It suits the Americans—of course it suits them; they have many common interests and perhaps most of all a common sense of humour. That is one of the things one must have in common or the federation is likely to
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    give way. There are certain ethnics about this, and I believe we were given different colours and different skins for a certain purpose; I do not think we were meant to mix them and to become polygot. I have never thought that. I believe the whole hope of world peace depends upon us facing the facts as they are and not trying to alter the unalterable. That perhaps is the total mistake the world tended to make since the war. We have tended to try to change those things which are the most difficult of all to change before trying to change the things which are the easiest to change.
    Here I come again to the Commonwealth development programme. What we are changing today is something which is quite easy to change,because we are building on a foundation which is already there. That is the foundation laid in 1932 by the Ottawa Agreement. It is that trade association of Commonwealth nations, each of them acting in its own right, each of them free to go out if it wants to go out and yet apparently agreed at least to leave the preferences established at that time for the time being. I believe we can make an improvement on that. We can build up to a principle of reciprocity inside and outside the Commonwealth economy which will mean a better friendship than ever we had before with the United States if only she will see the point of the whole thing and leave us all far freer to go in the way which best suits our own people.
    The tragedy has been that in the past and today those in control of systems which they believe to be wonderful for their own people are apt to get into their heads the idea that those systems are marvellous for everybody else as well. We preserve the right to differ from the Communist régime. We have just as much right to differ from those who want a mass federalism and want everything done anywhere in the world through the international organs of the United Nations and so forth.
    This is a chance. The outcome of this Sydney Conference gives us a chance for which this country has been looking for a long time. This is the chance of saying that if only this country is given free sovereignty and if only the countries of the Commonwealth are given free sovereignty they, going in the way which suits thembest, will be of great benefit

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    not only to their own future generation but to the present generation in the world as a whole and to the great American people and their descendants.
    I hope that what I have said will not in any way make anyone suppose that I do not believe that friendship between this country and America is one of the most important things we have to maintain. It is absolutely essential for the peace of the world that America and ourselves should remain friends, but let us talk in real terms. Do not let us imagine that neither of us dare say anything to the other for fear of hurting his feelings. Sometimes we make mistakes and sometimes they make mistakes. Anybody who is afraid of making a mistake will never get anywhere.
    The Chancellor and the Finance Ministers have shown that they are prepared to run the risk of making mistakes. They know that they must do something, and that the worst they could do would be to sit still and let world events take charge of the situation. The Sydney Conference is of immense importance, no matter what Lord Beaverbrook's Press or any other Press may say about it. When first I read the communiqué I misunderstood its purpose. I thought it was a mere attempt to get back to the Free Trade of 1923, and I was sure that that was impossible. The more we know about the Conference the more it becomes clear that it was bound up with the future peace of the world and the future wealth of the Commonwealth. I believe that these objects can be achieved only if we exercise vision and have the courage of our convictions to go ahead and take a risk now and again.
    8.30 p.m.
    Mr. F. Blackburn: The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) said that the meeting of the Finance Ministers was probably the most important event in the history of the Conservative Party, but he did not indicate whether he had in mind progress, consolidation or decline. He indicated that he knew what the Commonwealth Conference was about, and what decisions had been taken there.
    I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) that we do not know what took
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    place. I have been in this House all day listening to the speeches and to various hon. Members giving their ideas as to the solutions necessary to deal with problems that face us today. I want to bring the debate back to what we are supposed to be debating, the Commonwealth Economic Conference, and I want to find out what it is about. This is the third conference thatwe have had, and the information that we have been given after each conference has been so meagre that we know very little about the decisions that have been taken.
    I do not want anything that I may say to detract in any way from my belief in conferences within the Commonwealth. Even if, as seems likely, this Conference achieved nothing, I still believe that it will have played an important part. I want to make that clear, because I am rather critical about what has taken place. We must admit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has become adept at the politician's art of spinning words without saying anything. He is not only very good at the job; he is extremely good. In fact, we have to admit that he is a genius. This is the third time that he has given usa speech after a Commonwealth Economic Conference. His speech this afternoon was composed of trust and pious hopes—"I trust" that this will take place, and "I hope"that that will take place. The only thing we can say about it is that he was more emphatic in his trust and hope than on the two previous occasions.
    In order to try to find out what took place at this Conference, I studied carefully the statement the Chancellor made to the House on 2nd February. I also listened carefully to what he had to say this afternoon in the hope of getting a little more information and being able to fill in the blanks I do not know what other hon. Members feel, but I am still in the same state of wondering what decisions were taken. Therefore, I want to look at the statement which the Chancellor made on Tuesday, to see whether we can find out from it what actually did happen. Perhaps the Minister who will reply will be able to fill it out a little. The Chancellor said:
    "We met a year after we had set out together on a new course of policy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1954; Vol. 523, c. 205.]

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    I was wondering what that new course of policy was, so I turned up the communiqué that was issued after the 1952 Conference. This is what it said:
    "The measures taken in accordance with the conclusions of that meeting have, however, enabled the present Conference to decide that a more positive policy can now be adopted, both by the Commonwealth countries themselves and in concert with other friendly countries, to promote the expansion of world production and trade.…The Conference agreed that Commonwealth countries would work together to achieve certain broad, common objectives."
    They are words which convey no precise meaning. We do not know exactly what was to take place then. The Chancellor concludes that communiqué by telling us where we start off after the new meeting. Then he said:
    "The success of such a meeting should be judged rather by the maintenance of agreement and the effect of sharing of experience than by the test of whether new and startling decisions were reached."
    That refers to the latest meeting. It is quite obvious that no startling decisions were reached, and doubtful whether any new decisions, or any decisions at all, were reached. When the Chancellor says that we have to judge it by the measure of agreement, does he mean that we are to judge it so because there were no rows at the Conference—that one Member did not accuse another of being a capitalist dollar-monger?
    He also said that they all
    "…registered absolute identity of view on the line to be followed…"
    but what was that line? We are not told either in this statement, or in the communiqué issued after the Conference, nor has the Chancellor told us this afternoon. Various hon. Members have expressed a view as to what should take place, but we have not been told definitely what it shall be.
    His statement continued:
    "The statement of the President of the U.S.A. to Congress and the Report of the Randall Commission since published, give us considerable encouragement."
    I wonder whether the comments of others in America also gave encouragement? We have for long had statements from America which we have welcomed and with which we have agreed, but they have never been carried into effect. I do not know whether the various
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    Ministers are still as pleased with those other statements, and whether they really expect that effective action will be taken either on the majority Report or the President's statement.
    The Chancellor went on to say:
    "Apart from what we ourselves must do, we look for good creditor policies by the United States."
    We have been looking for those since 1945.
    I do not want anyone to accuse me of being anti-American; I do not like an attitude of anti anything, and I am very grateful to the action that America has taken in regard to Marshall Aid and the help that she has given us since the end of the war. Nevertheless we would all have preferred to earn our way rather than to have gifts. We have been looking for American good creditor policies since the war ended, and we are getting no nearer merely because the Commonwealth Minister's meeting says it is hoped that America will adopt those policies.
    Still referring to America, the Chancellor said:
    "We welcomed the prospect of I.M.F. credits being more readily available whether to help the world to ride out the effects of an adjustment in the American economy…".
    What is this euphemism—"adjustment in the American economy"? Apparently we must not talk of any recession in the American economy, but just that there is "an adjustment"taking place. Let us hope that it is a very small thing. What action have the Finance Ministers taken to meet not just "an adjustment" but a recession in America? Decisions were apparently taken, but we have not been told what they were. I should like to know exactly what they were, so that I can judge whether we have acquiesced in the right decisions.
    The Chancellor said that there was a unity of purpose about the line to be followed. He then said:
    "Our second major decision was to concentrate on the immediate necessity of increasing our own strength and sense of self-reliance as the most poweful unit of our type in the world. We were not ready to sit back and await what success might attend our long-term policies."
    It sounds good, but what does it mean? We all agree that there should be plans for increasing our own strength. The

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    Conference said that it was not ready to sit back and await success in our long-term policies, but we have not been told what those long-term policies were.
    The Chancellor claimed that the Conference did three things. First, he said:
    "We reaffirmed in the light of experience, since our last meeting, our determination so to conduct our internal policies that we hold inflation in check and concentrate our energies and inventiveness on increasing our overseas earnings."
    The Commonwealth Ministers did not need to go to Australia to make that decision. We all agree that must increase our earnings, but we are not told very much about our plans to do so. Then the Chancellor said:
    "Second, we repeated our intention to ease"—
    note the next three words—
    "as opportunity allows, restrictions on intra-sterling area trade."
    What does that mean? We are going to ease restrictions as opportunity allows. It may mean nothing; it may mean quite a lot. Thirdly, the Chancellor said:
    "…we considered how best to provide the means of developing the huge latent resources of the Commonwealth and Colonial Territories."
    Those words have been used in previous communiqués from Commonwealth conferences, but we still have no indication that there is an effective plan to develop those resources.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) asked the Chancellor about Australian wheat. This is what the Chancellor said:
    "All I can say is that wheat has now been restored to purchase by private hands in this country, and I sincerely hope that we shall continue to take a portion of Australian wheat, both hard and soft wheat."
    He hopes; he does not know. He cannot say, "Yes, we shall take Australian wheat." He hopes that we shall be able to take some Australian wheat. Surely he understands the importance of developing alternative sources of supply? Some Members of the Government seem to be quite prepared to take dollar wheat, dollar tobacco and dollar cotton, and not to concern themselves about alternative sources of supply. If Australia has surplus wheat it is to our advantage,and that of the sterling area generally, that we should buy it before we buy one bushel of dollar wheat from America.
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    It is not very long ago that we were complaining that Australia had to some extent over-industrialised and had neglected food production. Food production at the present time is so important to the whole world that we should encourage it everywhere throughout the Commonwealth. The Chancellor made another reference to Australian wheat when he said:
    "The levels of purchases from Australia are bound to continue either at their present level or at a better level, and, if events occur which are undesirable from the point of view of the economy either of the United Kingdom or the Sterling Area, the right hon. Gentleman can rely, not only upon the wisdom, but also upon the actions of Her Majesty's Government to intervene."
    It means nothing, does it? The right hon. Gentleman does not know, but hopes purchases of wheat will remain high. He does not know whether we shall be able to keep them up, buthe hopes. He says the purchases will remain either at their present level or be higher still. After the Chancellor's speech the other day and after the communiqué we are still in some difficulty. We do not know what decisions were taken. Let me quote from the final sentence of the right hon. Gentleman on Tuesday:
    "In regard to the anxiety of the workers of the country, the workers should feel confidence that the future outlook both in America and for world trade has now been so carefully analysed by the Finance Ministers of the Sterling Area and by Ministers of Her Majesty's Government that we may be better able, if things do go badly, to take the right action this time than we have ever been able to do before."—[Official Report, 2nd February, 1954; Vol. 523, c. 205–212.]
    I hope that is true, but I should feel much better satisfied myself if I had some idea of what the Commonwealth countries have decided to do. It is not enough merely to analyse the problem. We ought to be taken into their confidence, and the workers are entitled to know something about all this. It is no good telling the workers, "You need not worry. We have analysed the problem."If the Government have analysed the problem, and if the Finance Ministers have analysed the problem, then we should be told exactly what the decisions were after the analysis. I should like to know; but we are kept in the dark.
    It may have been an excellent Conference. Even if no decisions of importance were taken I should still value the

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    Conference because I think these conferences are important. I personally shall not be satisfied until we have an organisation to consider Commonwealth problems as a whole, and we ought to give other member countries some say in the running of the sterling area, too. However I think it is rather discourteous to the House that we should be given statements that convey no information, and I hope that when the hon. Gentleman replies to the debate he will give us a little more information than we have had up to the present time.
    8.48 p.m.
    Mr. Anthony Fell: I hope that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) will forgive if I do not follow him in his arguments. I thank him for curbing himself so strongly that he did not take up the rest of the time. It is probably true to say that no man on either side of the House, no man or woman in the world, however great an economist he or she may be, would even pretend to know the answers to all the manifold problems that have been under discussion today. Therefore, I hope I shall be forgiven if I do not attempt to venture into those parts of the problems of which I know least.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer went to Sydney and—in this I agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde—the fact that he went to Sydney and that there was the Commonwealth Conference was in itself worth while. I believe that there is evident an obvious and genuine desire on the part of the Government to develop even further the greatest force for world peace that has ever evidenced itself in the history of the world.
    Having said that I think the Chancellor did a good thing, having said that I believe he is treading most difficult paths at this stage and that I agree it may well be impossible to increase Imperial Preference at this moment, I then would like to declare an interest in that I am an Imperial flag-waving man—and I am very proud of it.
    I am deeply worried about the possible result, not of the Japanese Agreement itself, but of the habits that may arise out of it. I am worried as to whether we shall be able to hold the future that we
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    are designing for ourselves. I am worried that we may be forced into creating Imperial Preference at a time when things are not as happy as they are at the moment.
    Perhaps I may be allowed to go into this on a very humble and simple line. Suppose that Japanese goods start to flood the markets. I remember them flooding the markets when I was in New Zealand, and I remember trying to sell Japanese sand shoes at about, I forget the price, but something like 3s. 6d. a dozen pairs, against English sand shoes, or whatever they are called, at about 3s. 6d. or 2s. 6d. each.
    Mr. M. Follick: A pair, or each?
    Mr. Fell: Each pair. I remember trying to sell English socks at about 1s. or 1s. 6d. a pair, against Japanese socks at one-twelfth to one-twentieth of that price. No doubt since then the Japanese standard of living has risen, but it has not yet risen to such a height that we shall be able to compete on even reasonable terms, even with the increase that has taken place.
    Therefore, if there comes a habit of letting in Japanese goods, perhaps for fear that Japan will not be able to trade anywhere and will become a living sore in the world and then gradually drive us into some sort of war, we shall let those goods in. The result will be that countries like New Zealand and Australia will certainly be able to buy cheap goods from Japan; but because they do not buy our goods instead of the Japanese goods, we shall not be able to buy the primary produce of Canterbury lamb, cheese and butter, wool and wheat from Australia, and the other goods that come from the Empire.
    If that should happen, the results surely must be a diminution of Imperial trade generally. If the Empire cannot sell its primary produce, it will be forced to have another Ottawa Agreement, imposing perhaps greater preferences than would be necessary if the Empire were able to evolve its preferences gradually and at not too high a rate—at a slightly greater rate than at present—before such an emergency arises.
    I hope the House will forgive me for hurrying somewhat, but there are one or two other points that I want to cover.

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    I am, however, going to stop on the tick, and I hope that hon. Members opposite will be pleased to hear that, because I remember that on a previous occasion I went a little over my time.
    I want to deal with one point that arises out of what I have been saying. It is the fear that to holddown the trade of Japan and not to assist it enough, and perhaps the trade of Germany, will lead to a slump in those countries and in the end to a world war. I do not believe this necessarily to be the case. I believe that if we go along the wrong road now and, under the system of international trading and low preferences, let in too many goods from those countries which are producing cheaply, it may be that at some time in the future we shall have to stop trading with those countries, and then perhaps they will go headlong into a slump which may lead to great difficulties.
    I do not think that wars are caused in this way. I believe that the security and future peace of the world certainly must be linked with reasonably happy trading relations, but, if one looks into the past, I think it will be found that war is a result more of an attitude of mind at a stage of civilisation than of anything else. In the 16th Century, when Philip and Catherine de Medici and Elizabeth and the whole of Europe were at one another's throats fiercely throughout the century, or most of it, and in the later centuries which followed, it was not a question of trade but a question of a habit of war, a question of avarice and greed at that stage of civilisation.
    I think it is true to say today that we have reached a stage in civilisation where it is not thinkable that certain nations which were at each other's throats in 1914 could be at each other's throats today. I Believe that it is perhaps true to say that the reason Russia is such agreat danger is that she is almost mediaeval. It is certainly true that we have today everything possible to protect and to assist those nations which are attempting to get their trade on to a level basis again, but it is certainly a false premise to saythat that must be done if the possible result is that one can help them for a little while and then has to let them down with a bang.
    Therefore, I hope that in our future thought on Imperial trade we shall give
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    very serious consideration to raising Imperial Preference, certainly where necessary to protect ourselves from those countries which are producing goods with which we cannot compete because of their lower standard of living.
    In conclusion, with most other people, I think that the Chancellor has done everything that he can in the present circumstances to set a reasonable basis for the future. I only hope that the foundations which he is trying to lay will go towards Imperial Preference rather than away from it.
    9.1 p.m.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: The Chancellor of the Exchequer opened his speech with a rather half-hearted defence of the woolly and unsatisfactory language of the communiqué. I am not concerned with attacking the language; I am much more concerned with the substance revealed in the communiqué, and I think the kindest thing I can say—because I always like to be as kind as possible in these debates on Commonwealth matters—is that the meeting cannot possibly have been as bad as the communiqué would lead one to think.
    I am fully convinced, from personal experience, of the immense value of these Commonwealth meetings—the personal contacts, the exchange of information, the getting to know one another which take place at them. It is very difficult to indicate that sort of value of a meeting in any language at all. When I read the communiqué it reinforced an idea which I have sometimes had, that it would perhaps be better to have no communiqué at all after a Commonwealth meeting but simply to have the meeting and get on with the business. It certainly confirmed me in the view that, if there are to be communiqués, they should be short and crisp and not long, vague and woolly, as is this communiqué. A new principle in Commonwealth affairs seems to have crept in since the present Government took office: the less we have to say, the greater the length at which it should be said.
    Even if I put the best construction I can upon the communiqué, following the remarks which theChancellor made this afternoon, I must say that I am extremely disappointed with the outcome of this Conference, and particularly—which it is proper for us to criticise—with the

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    attitude of this Government as revealed by the Chancellor's speech this afternoon. I speak as one who regards the Commonwealth economy and the development of Commonwealth economic co-operation as perhaps the most vital factor in our whole policy—the most vital step we can take for our own good as a countryand for the good of the world. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) that the future of the Commonwealth will be secure only if we can make it an economic reality as well as an emotional and constitutional reality.
    No progress seems to have been made towards this end at all. Indeed, the communiqué which we have been given is only a re-hash, in slightly less satisfactory language, of the communiqué issued after the first Conference a year ago. One would not know that a year had gone by. One would not realise that in some ways the situation is more dangerous this year than it was when the Commonwealth Finance Ministers met last year.
    Indeed, my first complaint is about the dangerous tone of complacency which runs through the whole of the communiqué and through the whole of the Chancellor's speech today, when, in fact, the position is rather more dangerous for us and we are having to face it, as a country, with extremely precarious reserves. Whatever one may say about the United States slump, or adjustment, or whatever it is called, it is certainly much nearer today than it was a year ago. Nobody was even talking about it a year ago. Now we are told that it has already started. Nobody knows whether it may get a great deal worse, and even if, as we hope, the United States Government took effective measures to deal with it, even if such a slump were quickly corrected, it would be a very nasty blow to us in its effect upon world trade.
    But the most grave matter—and here I agree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby), as I did with many other parts of his speech—is that, if we are to be frank about it, there is now little hope of the liberalisation of United States trade. The Chancellor, as always, rather carefully put in a proviso or two when he spoke of the Randall Report, but nevertheless he treated it as rather a comfortable and satisfactory document, whereas I find it
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    a most disturbing document. The Randall Report proposes very little, even if it is accepted in its entirety by Congress. The "Economist"said that it would result in the addition of a few hundred million dollars a year only to the closing of the dollar gap.
    What is really disturbing is that the Randall Report moderated its proposals in order to try to win the consent of Congress and of Senator Millikin. But Senator Millikin and his other colleagues have dissented and demurred from the moderate proposals which have been made. That is very grave, because the assumption that United States trade is going to be liberalised is the assumption behind both the last two communiqués. It was behind the communiqué last year, and it is also the assumption on which the Communiqué from the recent Finance Ministers' Conference rests.
    In other words, the whole structure of hope which the Chancellor of the Exchequer deployed before our eyes today rests on an assumption which is dangerous. Indeed, if one faces the facts and the realities, one really would get a different picture from that painted in the communiqué. The picture shows that we are facing a difficult and possibly dangerous trend in world trade, and facing it with precarious reserves indeed. As my right hon. Friend said, although our reserves are going up—and it is gratifying to everyone that they are going up—they are still far below the figure of December, 1950, and even then they were far too small.
    Since the war, we have never had reserves near a sufficient level, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us today that the rate of progress in the future is going to be slow. So, on his own account, it is going to be a very long time before we are in the position of having sufficient reserves to cushion ourselves against a moderate adverse movement of world trade.
    It seems to be an unanswerable deduction that, for a long time ahead, we will have to look forward to the sterling area as being a discriminating economic unit in the world, and to talk about convertibility and to dislike the word "discrimination,"as the Chancellor of the Exchequer does, is dangerous nonsense today. These things have got to be faced. In the present circumstances, we cannot

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    have free convertibility. We have got to have discrimination, not extreme discrimination, but more discrimination than would be thought was needful from the communiqué of the Finance Ministers' Conference.
    In the interesting argument which we had between the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire and the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), I was wholly on the side of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire. We were told by the right hon. and learned Gentleman that a new Robert Peel has descended upon the Treasury Bench. He told us that when the last one was here the ports were open, trade boomed, everything flowed in, and all was prosperity. Of course, that was in totally different conditions.
    If today as a nation we did the same thing, we should advance straight into a position where our reserves would be running out before we knew where we were. We should probably get unemployment, which would be just the opposite to what happened under the first Robert Peel. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his absence was described as a second Robert Peel by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery. I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in the Chamber at the time.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I was.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: The right hon. Gentleman was. He will agree with me that, if we opened our ports today in that way, we should not be able to afford the actual imports to keep our factories going. It is a sheer necessity deliberately to develop Commonwealth trade. We ought not to adopt the attitude that if trade in all directions is developed, Commonwealth trade will also develop as a sort of a by-product. It is a sheer necessity for this country to develop Commonwealth economy, so that in the long run there will be dollar-savers and earners on a greater scale than ever before, and in the short run we will be able to deal with an American slump.
    If we are going to develop trade not merely as a word, but, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, as a real thing, we have got to have a constructive policy. There has been no sign of it in the Communiqué and none in the Chancellor's
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    speech this afternoon. This is nothing but pious talk, and it cannot be anything else, because the Government are throwing away the means by which we can discriminate in order to develop Commonwealth trade. And they are throwing it away for reasons of faith, for reasons of doctrinal belief in private enterprise. The hon. Member for East Aberdeershire is quite right, this is the Liberal Party we are facing now, the party that believes in laissez faire as a doctrine of faith.
    The development of Commonwealth trade can only be a reality, not just a word, if there is a plan and if there is Government action. But the Conservatives and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery do not like Government action in economics, they do not like plans, and therefore they cannot have the development of Commonwealth trade. Because one cannot direct trade in certain directions in which it would not necessarily flow unless there is Government action to do that.
    Mr. Butler: Nonsense.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: I will try to establish my point. The right hon. Gentleman naturally regards it as nonsense because it conflicts with his faith℄
    Mr. Butler: It is not a question of faith. And why does the right hon. Gentleman say that Commonwealth trade is diminishing? Can he prove it? If he can, his argument stands.
    Mr. Gordon Walker:I have not said that, I have said that it has to be increased. What I said was that in the rather dangerous state of world trade ahead of us we must have discrimination within the sterling area and that we are throwing it away. I will give some examples to prove what I am saying.
    Now let me get down to the details. If we are really to have a deliberately developed Commonwealth trade—not just hope that it will come as part of a general increase in world trade—we have to do two things. First there must be a flow of directed capital from the United Kingdom into the right kinds of production in the Commonwealth. Of course we are in a stronger position to do that today, though I was sorry that the Chancellor made certain claims for the Government—which was a little cheap of him—when

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    he mentioned aircraft production and oil refineries. Those were started and developed under the Labour Government and were due to our intense capital development policy.
    Nevertheless we can agree that we are in a stronger position, but the Chancellor still has not resolved two contradictory statements which he made. The right hon. Gentleman said when he was in Australia that we are to make a great contribution from this country in terms of investment in the Commonwealth and also that it would make no difference to this country or involve any hardship—the right hon. Gentleman said he did not mean rationing—but he has not told us where that greater contribution is coming from.
    Is it coming from investments that we would otherwise make in this country or somewhere else in the world, out of consumption, or out of a switch from investments that we are sending somewhere now and will send to the Commonwealth in future? And wherever it is coming from, how will the Government, now that they have no effective control over investment, secure that the investment shall be made in the Commonwealth, even if they have a plan about where it is to be found?
    There is another point I want to make to the right hon. Gentleman. Is he really satisfied that we have enough steel in this country, because without enough steel this investment will not be a real thing. A few days ago I was in Aden and went down to look at the refinery. A magnificent job is being done there in the speed at which the refinery is being built, but in order to achieve that speed we have had to use a great deal of United States equipment instead of United Kingdom equipment for power stations and storage tanks. These are things we can make here but which, if made here, would have involved a delay of perhaps a year in getting the Aden refinery working. I agree that today we cannot afford such a delay.
    What is disturbing is that this was due to the shortage of steel here, and without the development of steel on a sufficient scale it is idle to talk about investment. Now we have de-nationalised the steel
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    industry, I do not see how the Government can do anything to develop a production of steel greater than it will be for ordinary reasons of private profit, which is the level it is at now.
    The first thing, as I said and the Chancellor agreed, was the directing of British capital investment to the Commonwealth. The second must be the making of long-term agreements with Commonwealth countries for their commodities, particularly dollar-saving commodities. But under present Government policy, I cannot for the life of me see how these long-term agreements can survive. It seems to me that they must go, one by one. I do not see how they can fit into the present Conservative pattern of trade, with all these commodities being in private hands.
    I can see how the Commonwealth sugar arrangement can go on, because we have very nearly a monopoly-selling organisation under private enterprise in this country, but I cannot see what other commodities can be the subject of long-term agreements with the Commonwealth. Wheat has been mentioned as an example. Putting it into private hands means that the Chancellor has no means of purchasing Australian wheat even if he wants to. He says that he hopes that there will be purchases, but he has no means of encouraging them. If it will bring more private profit to buy dollar wheat, the private traders will buy it—and with the Chancellor's blessing, because he told us that he took great pride in the fact that we are buying food in the cheapest market, regardless of anything. The expression "cheapest market" is meaningless unless one means it is the cheapest market and one pays attention to nothing but price.
    Mr. R. A. Butler:How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile the first argument, in which he says that I have restored trade to private hands and cannot control it, with his second argument that I insist on everything being bought in the cheapest market, when it is in private hands?
    Mr. Gordon Walker:The right hon. Gentleman said that food would be bought in the cheapest market, so if wheat were bought privately in the dollar market because it was cheaper, that would be done with the Chancellor's blessing.

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    I do not think that hon. Members opposite have fully understood that if one abandons guaranteed markets for home farmers, as the present Government are doing, in order to put trade in these commodities in private hands, that must involve putting all Commonwealth trade in all these commodities in private hands, and with all these commodities in private hands there is no way of securing these agreements. With the exception of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire, I do not think that hon. Members opposite appreciate that if we sacrifice the home farmers in this way we are also sacrificing Commonwealth farmers. Hon. Members opposite cheer the Minister of Food when he says that he is winding up his own office, but they do not realise that in doing so the Minister is also winding up any hope of any planned, developed Commonwealth trade.
    I do not see how long-term agreements can be entered into in connection with these private trade commodities. If those agreements cannot be entered into, then all that is left to us as a means of developing Commonwealth trade is Imperial Preference. That is the sole means by which one can discriminate or direct trade in ways in which it would not flow by ordinary nature. Imperial Preference, and perhaps the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, are the only things left.
    Conservative policy has had rather a jolt as a result of the party's two years in office. The Conservative panacea was to increase Imperial Preference and backbencher pressure a year ago was so strong that the Chancellor had to go so far as to bring this proposal of Imperial Preference before the Commonwealth Conference, although he knew that there was no hope of its being accepted. The hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Sir W. Fletcher) produced the extraordinary idea that the Chancellor was extremely bold and had brought Imperial Preference up-to-date. All that the Chancellor has done has been to tell us what everybody knows, except apparently the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe, that the Commonwealth will agree to maintaining Imperial Preference at the present level but there is no hope of increasing it. That has been known for years now.
    In fact, there is an objection in certain parts of the Commonwealth to any hope
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    of increasing it, which in reality means that we shall decrease Imperial Preference, because some Imperial Preferences are specific in terms of money and some are ad valorem. But most are specific in terms of money and become less and less valuable the higher prices go. So that Imperial Preference is not even standing still. It is going back as prices go up.
    None the less, the Chancellor, having told us all this—having told some of the facts of life to his own supporters—says that the Government policy is Imperial Preference, presumably to an increasing degree. That would seem to me to be typical of the really extraordinary new idea which the Chancellor has and the new meaning which he attaches to the word "policy." It now seems to mean vague aspiration—something one would like—and bears no reference to anything one is taking steps to secure.
    All through his speech the Chancellor said that his policy was for this and for that, but he did not tell us what steps he proposed to take to secure it, or even if he proposes to take any steps at all. He has said, "This is my policy,"but he finds himself in a position in which it is impossible to carry out that policy. He seems to have bamboozled some people, including the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) who appeared to be happy about the Chancellor's wonderful revolutionary policy which he described to us—incidentally without giving any details. Indeed, that was the reason for this new talk of policy, meaning aspiration and not something you are going to do.
    The end of this is, for all their talk about being an Imperial Party or of wanting Empire trade and all the rest of it, that what we find the Government are doing is dismantling the main instruments for discrimination, which are mainly long-term agreements, and bulk purchase. All they are left with is Imperial Preference, which cannot be increased or adapted and which in fact, is declining in real value.
    Mr. A. C. M. Spearman: Is the right hon. Gentleman urging that we should do more trade with the Commonwealth—which is what we all want—or is he urging that we should do less trade with the United States? If we carry out discrimination

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    does he not think it might have a very bad effect on our exports, not only to the United States, but to everywhere else?
    Mr. Gordon Walker:It may be difficult, and trade with the United States may well fall off in selling of goods, but it is already falling off, as the Chancellor said. I want more trade with the Commonwealth, with long-term agreements to secure it and with guaranteed markets for the farmers, because the two go together. We must have both or neither.
    It is a wretched position in which the Party of Empire find themselves. Had there been a Labour Government we should have had a far more vigorous, full blooded and effective policy—not just talk—for developing Commonwealth trade. We should not have broken up these long-term agreements, like the Wheat Agreement. If the Chancellor can explain the technique by which we can have long-term agreements in those commodities which are under private enterprise, such as wheat and meat, I hope he will do so, and then I will withdraw all I have said on the subject.
    One final point I wish to make, which I think is in some ways the greatest economic problem which faces the Commonwealth. If we are to have discrimination in favour of sterling goods within the Commonwealth—in fact we have got it and it will increase—the great problem is that when we are discriminating against dollar goods we shall have to discriminate against Canada, because Canada is a dollar country. That is a very awkward and difficult problem. There is a danger that we may create a great economic gulf across the Commonwealth which might become extremely serious.
    It would seem to me that the best way to deal with it would be for Canada to allow us to buy a certain amount of goods for sterling. That would allow us to buy what Canada is eager to sell to us and what we are anxious to buy. It would also give Canada a great incentive to allow our exports to come to her and to use up the accumulated sterling. But that depends upon the Canadians and is nothing to do with us. We can only suggest it.
    But there is one thing that we can do and have not done, which seems to me to be important. We can try to lessen and to bridge over the economic gulf which
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    can very easily be dug across the Commonwealth. We can do that by a policy of a deliberate official preference for the Canadian dollar; that is, not by talking about "the dollar" as such, but by talking about "the Canadian dollar."
    The Government ought to conduct the sort of campaign which originally made us conscious of the dollar. Previously we were not conscious of it. We want such a campaign to make us conscious of the Canadian dollar and not merely the United States dollar. The managers and workers in our export industries should begin to be told that it is better to earn a Canadian dollar than a United States dollar.
    Several advantages would flow from this. One advantage is that it would give us a more secure market, for the Canadian market is undoubtedly more secure for our exporters than the United States market. A very grave aspect of the matter is that the Randall Commission made no proposals for altering the "peril point" provision by which an industry in America which is threatened by tariffs can be given protection. Thus, the sword of Damocles is still hanging over the heads of our exporters who seek to establish markets in the United States, but that is not the case in Canada.
    Secondly, if we were conscious of the Canadian dollar rather than the American dollar, it would help to bind the Commonwealth together. It would bind us to Canada because there would be a tendency to develop Canadian-United Kingdom trade. I know that in strict economic terms the Canadian dollar is interchangeable with the American dollar, but if we are earning Canadian dollars in the main, that is bound in practice to lead to a development of United Kingdom-Canadian trade.
    I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman who is to reply will remove any doubts about the main point, that one cannot have a policy, as distinct from a talk, about developing Commonwealth economy unless one can have long-term commodity agreements with the Commonwealth, and overcome the technical problems of fitting them into a system in which wheat and other commodities have been completely handed over to private trade.
    I have supreme confidence in the Commonwealth, in its economic strength,

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    in its resources and in its desire and capacity to co-operate. My only doubt arises from the fact that I have very little faith and confidence in the capacity of the Government with its present doctrinaire ideas—there is no doubt that the Government have laissez-faire, doctrinaire liberal ideas—to get beyond the kind of clichés that we have been given in the Sydney communiqué and the Chancellor's speech, and get down to the real urgent job of making a reality of Commonwealth co-operation. I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will give us just one example of a concrete policy so that we can hear one during today's debate, for we have not done so yet.
    9.28 p.m.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. John Foster): In this debate many far-reaching questions have been asked of me, such as "Is there going to be a further American slump?" and "What is the prospect for United States dollars?" I was not surprised. I looked at my diary this morning and, due to the vagaries of the English language, read, "9.30 wind up." However, I recalled that it meant "wind up." How HANSARD is going to report that without the assistance of my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman), I do not know. If HANSARD could report it, the joke would not exist.
    Mr. Beswick:Did the hon. and learned Gentleman see that, according to the tape last night, John Foster Dulles was going to wind up the debate tonight?
    Mr. Foster:Towards the end of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) alluded to clichés. I want to put in a defence for clichés. They are necessary in economic matters, because the cosy little things that our nannies told us are awfully dull, such as "Brush your teeth before you go to bed at night," "Everybody yawns," and "Honesty is the best policy." The last cliché is awfully dull. If one says, "Dishonesty is the best policy," that is revolutionary, and it is news.
    Mr. Gordon Walker:Not on your side of the House.
    Mr. Foster: If one says, "Do not steal," that is dull, but if one says,
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    "Grab everything," as the Socialists do, that is a revolutionary policy. In economic matters the clichés are the accumulated wisdom of a great many centuries. "Do not spend more than you have got," "Work hard and save"sound awfully dull to hon. Members opposite. So dull do they sound that probably the House will recollect that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) instead of saying, "Expand exports" said "Exports are a will o' the wisp."
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Another cliché?
    Mr. Foster: No. I am saying the opposite of what the right hon. Member said in his anxiety to escape a cliché. Instead of saying "Extend exports," "Export to live" he said that exports were the will o'the wisp which the capitalists were compelled to pursue because they underpaid their workers at home. That sounds very revolutionary but it is not true and it is nonsense. Some things which are not true are not nonsense, but that covers both categories. The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Arthur Greenwood) said that pounds, shillings and pence were "meaningless symbols."That is not a cliché but it was no credit to him to say that.
    Mr. Beswick:This has nothing to do with the Conference.
    Mr. Foster: It has something to do with the Sydney Conference, because the Conference stated a number of truisms and economic facts of life which are very necessary to be said and for politicians to learn, especially hon. Members opposite, because they fail to appreciate them. They are wedded to a restrictionist economy, and the debate today has been roughly on the difference between those who believe in restrictionism and those who believe in an expanding economy. The right hon. Member for Leeds. South (Mr. Gaitskell) was concerned throughout his speech in saying that the Government had given up this physical control or given up the right to do that We meet (him square on and say that we believe that, by giving up these controls and by using other methods of monetary policy and so on. we create an atmosphere in which the individual effort of each person produces what the late Sir Stafford Cripps was so fond of alluding

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    to, a bigger cake. He always had the same-sized cake, but I wanted to use his cake for the moment—
    Mr. Gaitskell:Leaving clichés and cakes alone for a moment, will the hon. and learned Gentleman explain what he means by "monetary policy" here? How will it help to increase Common-wealth trade?
    Mr. Foster:Monetary policy was given as an instance of the kind of world in which we believe individual effort can create bigger production and more worth-while trade. The right hon. Member rather made fun of the Chancellor by saying that he wanted to increase East-West trade. Well, he does, but he wants to increase Commonwealth trade. At one time it was put against him that he wanted to increase Commonwealth trade as if that were a rather foolish thing to want, but the right hon. Member for Leeds, South also criticised him for not having increased that trade. The facts are that Commonwealth trade has increased and is increasing.
    In that connection the right hon. Member was inclined to be extra-pessimistic in the sense that, to a certain extent, I think he misrepresented the situation about sterling balances. One of his statements was that sterling balances were relatively in the same proportion as when the reserves were higher. Now the reserves are admittedly lower than at the highest point in 1951 and their relative position to sterling balances is about the same; therefore, the right hon. Gentleman said, the danger is the same. I do not believe that is so. I do not think that the House would agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Sterling balances have a bottom portion needed for currency reserves and for working balances, and it is clear that the absolute size makes a difference. If we had a very big amount of sterling balances, there is a possibility that the top part would be used if there were a serious crisis, and might be used as a drain upon the reserves.
    In fact, the success of the Conference of January, 1952, in which all the Commonwealth pulled together and came to an agreement to do their utmost to redress the catastrophe which hung over the Commonwealth area because of the
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    policies of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, was because the Commonwealth countries did not misuse their balances in that sense. I am only discussing the theoretical point that because balances have the same relation to the reserves there is the same theoretical danger now as there was then. I should have thought it was obvious that, as there is a certain basic minimum for the balances which must be used as currency reserves and working balances, their absolute size matters, and that there is not the same danger, although the relationship is essentially the same.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The hon. and learned Member is developing a very ingenious and interesting argument. I wonder whether he has followed it out to its conclusion. If what he is saying is correct and we want low absolute sterling balances, the proportion being unchanged, and the proportion has no effect, why is the Chancellor being so proud about the increase in the gold reserves? The hon. and learned Gentleman's argument means that we ought to have less gold and less sterling balances. Is that the hon. and learned Gentleman's view?
    Mr. Foster: Of course it is not. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is an ex-don. In fact, the whole debate has been carried on by a number of dons on each side. I thought that right hon. Gentlemen on the other side were rather doctrinaire dons and they reminded me very much of a philosophical colleague of mine who wrote a book on "Eternity." He turned to a historical colleague and said, "I have not given you a copy because it does not deal with your period."
    All I was saying about sterling balances was that the absolute size mattered. Take for the sake of argument a situation in which the balances were at an absolute minimum as required for currency reserves, there would then be no danger. That does not mean that we do not want the reserves to increase, for the reasons which the right hon. Gentleman has given. We want the reserves to increase because of their value as reserves, and the bigger they are the more use they are.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am awfully sorry, but this argument is very confusing. The hon. Gentleman has said that he does

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    want the reserves to increase, and he has also admitted that an increase in the reserves carries with it an increase in the sterling balances unless they change their proportion, and he has admitted that they will not do so. That being so, on the one hand he wants more gold, and on the other hand he does not want what goes with it, an increase in the balances. He had better leave this subject alone.
    Mr. Foster:I will have one more shot and try to get my pupils to understand what I mean. I say that it is a fallacy on the right hon. Gentleman's part to say that if the proportion is the same the danger is the same. That is all I am saying—if the reserves and the balances are lower, as a fact, then the danger is less.
    Let us examine the argument of the two right hon. Gentlemen about the sterling balances.
    Dr. Stross:Before the hon. Gentleman goes to that point, he did, at the beginning, discuss clichés. May I put it this way, that when the pupil commits murder we should hang the schoolmaster?
    Mr. Foster: The arguments about the sterling balances were raised in a way which, had they been believed in the country—and I hope they will not be—might have had some harmful effect and the same thing was argued by the hon. Gentleman who alluded to the size of the colonial balances. Those balances are of a certain size, but there have been many qualifications about them. First of all, large working balances are needed by the Governments, and secondly, there are considerable sums in those balances for such buffer pools as the cocoa pool. The remaining balances are meant to be used in the sense to which I think the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) was alluding, namely, reserves; but it is not right to say that the absolute size of the sterling balances in this case is a danger, at this time when our reserves are increasing.
    Mr. Gaitskell: They are increasing exactly pari passu.
    Mr. Foster:The balances do not necessarily increase by the same amount as the reserves, and that is the misunderstanding between us.
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    I would say to the two right hon. Gentlemen that their view of a restrictionist economy is one which we do not accept at all. We do not accept that the Government should direct investment in the Commonwealth by, we will say, instituting a system of exchange control between the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth countries. That seemed to be envisaged in what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South said in the debate on the previous Conference a year ago. There he said that it had always occurred to him that there was too free a movement of capital between the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth countries; that, therefore, he was in favour of this capital being restricted, and the most likely way out, assuming that, was a system of exchange control on capital movements. If he was right, it is a very strange thing that when his party were in office they did not take measures to stop this capital movement, if it was such a great danger and such an inefficient system.
    The right hon. Member will probably remember, too, that in, I think it was," "Challenge to Britain,"figures were given about the movement of capital from the United Kingdom from 1947 to 1950. The argument was there again developed that very little real investment capital had moved from the United Kingdom to the Commonwealth, because a lot of what did move was "hot" money. If the right hon. Gentleman is right, the actual surplus which could have been invested as capital movement into other parts of the Commonwealth during the Labour Party's tenure of office—and let us not take the first two years because of the effects of the war—in 1947 was something like minus £443 million; in 1948, minus £1 million; then in 1949 it was plus £31 million, and there was a big surplus of £289 million in 1950, but this was obtained at the cost of running down stocks. After that it again went into minus figures. If the right hon. Gentleman is right in his view about capital movement—which was one of the few free things allowed under his régime—namely, that in the sterling area there should be no exchange control, one cannot help asking why he did not introduce this very strict physical control, which in our view would have been disastrous.
    If he is right about the Socialist Government's system of controls—which he

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    says we are throwing away; and we agree that we are—let us look at the mess he got into in 1951. He probably remembers the speeches be made at the Mansion House, in Washington, and to the Trades Union Council. In those speeches he drew a most terrifying picture of the abyss into which we were falling at a very fast rate. That could not be said to have been caused by external forces. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] It could not. It could be said to have been due to the fact that the United Kingdom had an inefficient and doctrinaire system, which was not working.
    The moment we came into office we began to introduce a more flexible system which, during the year 1952–53, resulted in a very big change—from a loss of £1,000 million to a surplus of £400 million. The right hon. Gentleman said that the surplus of £400 million was not as great as it seemed, because American aid had been taken into account, and that if it had been left out the surplus would have been much less. But I understand that the figure of £1,000 million was also arrived at after including American aid.
    Mr. Gaitskell Mr. Gaitskell indicated dissent.
    Mr. Foster: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that there was no American aid in 1951–52?
    Mr. Gaitskell:Marshall Aid was virtually suspended at the beginning of 1951.
    Mr. Foster:We shall have to agree to disagree about that. Again and again in their arguments the two right hon. Gentlemen assumed that unless the Government have the power of directing this or ordering that, no steps can be taken to deal with any crisis which eventuates. They then went on to play what to anybody who plays chess is called a Kriegspiel—by trying to make a move and, if it is an impossible move, retreating—by trying to find out what happened at Sydney.
    The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) objected to the terms of the communiqué, because he said that they meant nothing. If we read them we find that they mean exactly what the Chancellor said they meant, namely, that agreement was reached. The hon. Member was trying to go behind the
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    terms of an agreed document. The communiqué was a result of the agreement of the seven or eight independent countries of the Commonwealth. If they had wanted to say more, they would have agreed to say more.
    Mr. Gaitskell:We do not ask for any more.
    Mr. Foster: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Gloucestershire, South was asking a lot of questions about what was behind the communiqué and what any particular country agreed or disagreed at the time. The right hon. Gentleman made a lot of play with some rather lighthearted comments by the Press, who also played the same game as the right hon. Gentleman agreed he did, of guessing the Government's policy, he said, and then finding out whether it was denied or agreed. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite keep on saying they are guessing. To them there is no policy unless there is a restrictionist economy. That is the only kind they want. Unless the Government are prepared to direct investment into the Commonwealth—
    Mr. Gordon Walker: All we say is that there cannot be a policy unless something is done.
    Mr. Foster: Taken over the last two years, the Government will be seen to have taken a lot of action, and to have been very successful in their actions. That is the awkward part of the right hon. Gentleman's case. The party opposite keep on saying it is not a policy unless the Government have the right to direct investment into the Commonwealth, unless they have the right to put on exchange control between the United Kingdom and the rest of the Commonwealth. To them it is not policy unless these particular powers exist. If the Government, as we have done, create a climate in which the economic forces have freer play, then that is not policy to them, because it is not in accordance with "Challenge to Britain" or with their preconceived doctrinaire ideas.
    Mr. Beswick: The Government have not a policy for the surplus wheat either.
    Mr. Foster:There is an instance in point. To them, unless the Chancellor has the power to buy up the whole of the Australian wheat surplus, he has not

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    got a policy. That is their argument. First of all, private trade has bought a good deal of it. If the price were right, they would buy more. This is the conflict between the two sides of the House. We believe in—
    Mr. Gordon Walker: The cheapest market.
    Mr. Foster:Has the right hon. Gentleman heard his supporters behind him complaining about the price of food? Is he in favour of increasing the price of food by paying more than necessary for it, or not?
    Mr. Gordon Walker: I am certainly in favour of this country's making some sacrifice to develop Commonwealth production, such as Australian wheat. The Government are not. The Government are prepared to go to the cheapest market and ignore the Australian: wheat surplus.
    Mr. Foster: No. First of all, a good deal has been bought. Both sides of the House agree that sacrifices must be made, but we believe that in making sacrifices we should obtain the best results; in other words, we believe in creating a climate in which it will be possible to increase our savings, to have a trade surplus with the rest of the sterling area that can be used for development. We believe that if purely restrictive powers are taken, if the object always is, as the right hon. Gentleman said, to swing from one place to another, that will not work or be of advantage to us or to anyone else.
    I am not asking right hon. Gentlemen opposite to be convinced by what I am saying, but to recognise that there is this difference between us, and not to assume in their speeches that if we differ from them we have not got a policy. That is not the answer. We have a different policy, and it would be, I think, less disingenuous on their part if they said, "This is our policy. With your policy we do not agree—for the following reasons."
    There is always the assumption in the speeches of hon. and right hon. Members opposite that because we differ from them—because we do not have these physical controls and this restrictionist policy—we have no policy at all. I should have thought the record of the last two years would have shown that we have a policy, one with which hon. Members opposite profoundly disagree, I appreciate, but
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    none the less a policy that has worked and that has increased our balance of payments position from minus £1,000 million to reserves of £400 million. It has also resulted in holding the cost of living steady over a considerable period and has kept up full employment. These are the results and, therefore, right hon. Gentlemen opposite have to fall back on gloomy prophecies.
    That is only a question of degree, because it is obvious that in our economic state since the end of the war there have always been dangers ahead, and we must not be over-optimistic. What we must be is resolute and looking forward. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, we must be audacious and constructive. What we object to about the policies of hon. Members opposite is that what they are always aiming at is merely preserving the status quo. They have paid lip-service in this debate to increasing Commonwealth trade; but none of the remedies or criticisms which they advance would result in increasing Commonwealth trade.
    In that connection, the right hon. Gentleman was putting to me the dilemma of how the long-term contracts were to be reconciled with abandoning such controls as the Government have. Theoretically, there are many ways by which they could be reconciled, but it would be unwise for me to speculate on that. I can say, however, that representatives from Australia and New Zealand are over here and are discussing that very problem. Their discussions will cover the very ground of the problem which the right hon. Gentleman put to me. It is obviously a problem, and a difficult one, but I do not accept that it is insoluble.
    The advantage of our flexible and running economy is that we allow each person a better opportunity by his own individual effort to contribute to the total good. The Socialist Party believe in Socialism, by which everything is restricted and every person has certain very defined powers and duties in the economic sphere. In an ideal society, where everybody was a saint, there would be more of an argument for that, but given the imponderables and difficulties of economic life, we see that Socialism has failed in England. We have had six years of it, and it was a disaster and ended in a near-disaster. The right hon. Gentleman

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    has to take refuge in saying that it was external circumstances which brought him to the paths which he outlined in his three speeches.
    There is one point which does not fit into my argument but with which I wanted to deal. The right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) asked whether the Indian five-year plan was progressing well or had run into difficulties because the Indians were not drawing down their sterling balances. Our information is that the Indian five-year plan is progressing well.
    I commend to the House the results of the Sydney Conference, in which the Commonwealth countries agreed on the principles which they followed. It is true they were reinforcing what they had decided before, but the results in each country were satisfactory; they had had a successful two years dating from January, 1952. Therefore, the criticisms which have been advanced of the communiqué and of my right hon. Friend's actions are quite unjustified.

    CARBONATED DRINKS
    9.59 p.m.
    Dr. Barnett Stross: The Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Food will remember that I put a question to him the other day about cola drinks. He was good enough to give me an answer and to extend it in part when I asked him a supplementary question. He told me that he had no information as to the ingredients of these drinks.
    It being Ten o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Kaberry.]
    Dr. Stross: As I was saying, the Parliamentary Secretary was aware or had been informed that the measure of acidity of cola drinks was 2·6. This matter was to be studied through his Committee on Food Standards, and it was hoped soon to consider the position generally, including the question of acidity. He further told me that the level of acidity of these drinks was only slightly more
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    than the level of acidity for soft drinks generally.
    Before I go further may I say that I did note when he gave us the definition in terms of hydrogen ion concentration that he was misreported in "The Times," for the answer was given correctly in HANSARD. I heard him give it correctly. The answers which the Parliamentary Secretary gave me were, I think, important.
    There have been experiments with regard to this matter in the U.S.A., and I believe that, in spite of these experiments and investigations, very little publicity was given in the Press. There is an organisation there called the Consumers Union, and they are interested essentially in what people consume and what is in it. They reported on a number of drinks of this kind. I have the facts here, and it may well be that the Parliamentary Secretary has other drinks which have been analysed and can tell us about them. Assuming that the pH of water is 7, club soda was given at 4·7, sarsaparilla, 4·0, root beer, 3·4 and bottled orangeade, which I presume is a somewhat synthetic drink, 3·2, and the colas they give as 2·4, although I think most of us have found in the literature that it is 2·6. These figures suggest one thing with certainty, and that is that cola drinks are the most acid of all the mineral drinks which I have mentioned. There may be others used which are appreciably more acid than cola, although I doubt it, because the acidity of cola drinks is roughly that of vinegar, and I doubt if there is any other drink on the market which has more acidity than vinegar.
    I have mentioned that the critical acidity measurement is pH 3·5 for most people, and the reason is that if anything is more acid than that the saliva of the mouth of a human being cannot neutralise or buffer it. Experiments in connection with this were conducted by Professor Dr. McCay who was professor of nutrition at Connell University, New York. It was in 1943 that he became interested, and he was then advising the United States Navy on nutritional and health matters. He gave evidence in 1950 before a Select Committee of Congress which was investigating the use of chemicals in food products. His analysis

    697
    of cola drinks was as follows: Phosphoric acid ·055 per cent, sugar 10 per cent., some caffein—he did not state the amount, and I have not got it—and some colouring matter and water and, I presume, flavouring.
    In giving his evidence, Dr. McCay quoted what experiments he had conducted on the teeth both of humans and of animals. Human teeth he had of course immersed in solutions for different lengths of time, and he said that in two days human teeth in Coca-Cola became very soft. Of course, everybody knows that is true because it is easily proved. I proved it myself the other day, and if the Parliamentary Secretary is interested I can show him the specimens. I am obliged to my hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mr. Baird) and Penistone (Mr. McGhee) for providing me with a number of teeth for experiments.
    Brigadier F. Medlicott: But is that not an entirely artificial test? If the same procedure were adopted with other liquids, would not more damage be sustained?
    Dr. Stross: I was about to say that nobody holds a drink of cola or lemonade or anything else which may be acid in his mouth for two days before he swallows it, and I will now refer to the real tests, which are of much more interest. They are tests which may be described as in vivo, tests on rats, dogs and monkeys. The tests on monkeys are particularly interesting, because these animals can be taught to drink in exactly the same way as human beings drink—from a cup. Evidence given in 1950 to this Committee of Congress was that after six weeks rats which had been given some Coca-Cola to drink with their food each day showed most extensive erosion of their molar teeth. With orange juice they showed only very slight marking on the teeth, and there was none at all with tomato juice or water.
    The next experiment was one of six months. After a similar experiment for six months, erosion by phosphoric acid was such that the tops of the molar teeth were only slightly above the level of the gum. The teeth had been eroded away. There was some erosion with orange juice, very little with tomato juice, and of course none with water. I hope no
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    one will be scared of drinking orange juice, the acidity of which, I am told, is about one-tenth of that of cola drinks. The danger must be almost nil, and I am sure the human mouth can neutralise it or buffer it perfectly well.
    According to the Consumer Report of 1950, experiments on humans were conducted by Professor McCay himself. He attempted to reproduce the experiments on human volunteers, but this was abandoned as an experiment because of the sensitivity which developed in the teeth and which made it impossible to continue. He said he deplored the use of carbonated drinks which were as acid as this, not only for those who might have their teeth damaged as a result—and he was quite satisfied that teeth were damaged—but on account of peptic ulceration and. as far as young children are concerned, because there was caffein in the drink and young children should not have repeated doses of caffein. He said,
    "I would not use it in the Navy or anywhere else, if I could escape its use."
    He also said,
    "If you have got a friend who has got a gastric ulcer, and he is trying to drink a bottle of coke, he will get into trouble."
    I want to make it quite clear at once to the House that I have not picked out this drink in order to make any specific attack upon it and it alone. Other drinks, for example, apple juice, grape juice, sweetened grapefruit juices, I am advised, have a high acidity—3·1 hydrogen ion concentration; and it means that there is a risk of teeth erosion if those are taken in excess each and every day over a very long period.
    But we have the right to bring this matter up, because if the experimental work which I am quoting is true, it means that we are subject to an assault upon our teeth, or are to be in the near future now that sugar is unrationed and the cola drinks are likely to be drunk much more frequently; and this is an assault from which we can be protected. It is my thesis that drinks which erode the teeth are harmful and that it may well be possible, by altering the composition and using the influence of the Ministry of Food, to get an alteration in the acidity. Surely a decrease in the acidity could easily be effected by some alteration in the composition of these drinks. We shall then not have the same problem.

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    I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary to use his influence in two ways. I want him to insist on the formula being published on the label. We ought to know how much sugar and phosphoric acid is in these drinks. I do not mind which drinks they are, and if there is caffein in them we should be told how much.
    Brigadier Medlicott Brigadier Medlicott rose s
    Dr. Stross: No, I cannot give way. The hon. and gallant Member knows how limited is my time. The reason I advocate this labelling is not because everyone reading these things will at once become wise and protect himself or herself, but those of us in the know, like doctors, dentists and so on, will understand the significance and be able to tell people what it means.
    May I give an example of what I mean? Both here and in the United States food for cattle and animals generally is accurately and fully labelled, and that means the average literate or educated hen or cow can read on the labels what it is eating, whereas we poor humans, who are supposed to be educated, are left in the dark and we do not know what is happening to us. I am suggesting labelling, but I am not asking for legislation, which, of course, would be out of order. But we will have something more to say about that in the near future when a very interesting Bill comes before this House for consideration.
    If I might be allowed in the time available, I should like to quote again a question which was put by one of the members of Congress to Dr. McCay. This was:
    "I want to say to you, Sir, that I have had a doctor right here in Washington prescribe a small amount of cola beverage for my baby. Now, how did that come about?"
    The answer he got was this:
    "Well, they probably have not read the literature about cola beverages. It is a very restricted literature; it has not even been able to get into the Press, so what does the American public know about it. It is not declared on the bottle. They are as ignorant as I was in 1943 about the composition of the beverages. How would the public ever know if it cannot get into the Press? There is no way for them to know."
    That gives me an opportunity to say this. Although one Question only was
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    asked in the House, there has been an appreciable amount in the British Press. It is a good thing that I am able to say that. Why should we have anything to be afraid of? These drinks may be harmful, but if they were altered in composition they could become more popular than they were before, particularly if we all know that they can become beneficial rather than harmful.
    I was told this in a Sunday newspaper by the managing director of an organisation who is bottling these cola beverages in Britain:
    "Hundreds of millions of people, both grown-ups and children, have been having Coca-Cola for more than50 years without any harmful results. I should have thought that the most conclusive clinical evidence that anyone could get."
    That is what I have seen reported in answer to the view I expressed to the Parliamentary Secretary the other day.
    This gentleman wants an answer, and I am going to tell him a few facts. Let us compare the state of teeth in America at the First and then at the Second World War. Evidence was given during the First World War before this Committee of Congress that hardly any dentures were made for G.I.s in the Army. In the Second World War in the peak month 102,000 dentures were made by Army dentists for soldiers.
    In the Second World War, out of a draft of the first one million men, 188,000 were rejected because they did not have the dental requirement for that first draft. That requirement was merely that six upper teeth and six lower teeth should oppose each other and touch. It was found that if 188,000 men were to be rejected because of that condition, it would be better to do without any dental requirement, and so it was revoked altogether.
    The American Dental Association further states that today there are about half a billion cavities in American teeth, roughly half of those in children's teeth and the other half in adults'. It also states that 98 per cent. of the American people suffer from dental caries. That is a very different picture from 50 years ago. I am not saying that acid drinks are the entire cause of this state of affairs. American nutritionists are saying there are two other factors. One is the excessive eating of candy and the other

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    is the denaturing of food, what they call the use of foodless foods. The three factors together are responsible for the change and we should take note of it.
    It is always important in matters of this kind not to express excessive enthusiasm, but it is equally important, if one believes that danger faces our constituents, that we should have some care for them. Both in this country and in America, where there is the highest standard of life in the world, where there is the greatest possible variety in choice of foods, and such a highly evolved economy, an enormous amount of money is spent on dental care by the citizens. I suggest that anything which may be inimical to the health of our people, whether it be to their teeth or to their stomachs, or in any other way, deserves the full care of this House.
    10.16 p.m.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): I am glad that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) concluded with a word of caution, for it is particularly important that we should not regard this assembly as a scientific one, that we should not argue in complicated terms as between doctors, and that we should not arouse apprehensions that are not fully justified by the facts. I am bound to say that as I heard the hon. Gentleman developing his theme, I wondered what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) would have thought had he been in his place. I suspect that some of the things said might have driven even that hon. Gentleman to drink in order to escape the horrors that were mentioned.
    Dr. Stross: I am sorry, too, that my hon. Friend is not in his place, for he was coming to support me.
    Dr. Hill: Well, discretion has evidently played a larger part and the hon. Gentleman has decided to stay away. Reference has been made to the extensive investigations of two men, reported by one of them to a Congressional Committee which was surveying the field of chemical additions to food but which in its report did not think this evidence was of sufficient importance even to mention it there.
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    Let us look at some of the evidence to which reference has been made. Extracted human teeth have been left in Coca Cola. The shortest period reported was 72 hours. What happened? They lost weight due to the attack on the calcium of those teeth. We are expected to infer from this that in the swift passage of acid drinks through the lips and down the throat there is likely to be a danger comparable with that due to an exposure of naked teeth to an acid solution of cola drinks for a period of 72 hours.
    And what happened? There was a loss of weight of between 5.5 and 10.2 per cent. in those teeth. The hon. Gentleman should have added that had the fluid in which the molars of his friend were immersed been not a cola drink but fresh lemon juice, the loss would not have been between 5 per cent. and 10 per cent. but would have been 35 per cent. Had the immersion been in grapefruit juice or orange juice—even the orange juice of the Ministry of Food—there would have been a loss of weight in those teeth. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman might have gone on to say that had this been in a neutral solution of citrate, there would have been a loss of weight. Finally, had this immersion been in distilled water there would have been a loss of weight in those teeth and no one has yet attempted to prove, scientifically or otherwise, the peril to our molars which lies in the consumption of so insipid a drink as distilled water.
    Dr. Stross: I know that there is not much time, but I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will not run away on this. Will he talk to us about the effect of drinking normally in these animal experiments?
    Dr. Hill: If the hon. Member gives me time, I will get as much of the answer out as I can. These teeth, of course, were extracted. There was no protective layer of much in even on the teeth of his generous friend. They were not washed in the alkaline salivary juice which plays an important part in neutralising the acid. There they were, two lonely teeth of his political friend's, lying helpless for 72 hours in a bath of cola drink. Let us say at once that an experiment conducted under those circumstances is of very little value in determining either the fortitude of the teeth or the power of the solution in which they were immersed.

    703
    In the experiment which the hon. Member mentioned, the rats were given cola drinks over months. Their teeth eroded. If one makes a little calculation of what would be the equivalent amount of cola drink that would have to be drunk by an adult in order to achieve the same conditions as those represented by the small amount of cola drunk by the modest-sized rat, one would have to conceive a situation in which the adult man drank 25 bottles of cola a day. And what would happen to the average man who drank 25 bottles a day? I know not what would happen to his teeth, but I have a shrewd idea as to the airy congestion which would be found lower down.
    I do not doubt for one moment the scientific accuracy of the two fellows who did the experiment, or that there was a remarkable difference between what they said to the Congress Council Committee and what they subsequently said in articles in various journals, but, to say the least of it, the evidence is inconclusive. We must, of course, keep a perspective. All acids can corrode teeth. Bless my soul, one of the dangers to teeth lies in the residual pieces of starchy food which lie in the nooks and crannies of the teeth and turn under bacteriological action into acid and damage the teeth. We knew that before.
    The hon. Member will agree that we should make it clear that the lower the pH below 7 the higher the acidity, and the assumption here is that because the pH is as low as 2·6 there is particular danger from this kind of drink. The Government Chemist has been good enough to work out for me the pHs of other drinks. The pH of orange barley water is 3 in a dilution of one in three, which I have chosen. The pH of lime-juice cordial is 2·8, lemon squash 2·75, grapefruit 2·7 and orange squash 2·95. Does the hon. Member want to drive those of us who are abstemious to other more powerful drinks on the ground that their ion concentration is less, whatever their other effects may be?
    What about eating apples? There is a source of acidity. One can achieve damage to one's teeth by excessive consumption of apples, but for heaven's sake do not let the theoretical problem of securing that there is not too high a level of acidity round our teeth drive us into
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    the situation of depriving ourselves of fruit juice or depriving ourselves of almost every fruit squash and drink in order to guard against the terrible dangers which are alleged to exist from the consumption of a type of drink of approximately the same acidity.
    Dr. Stross Dr. Stross rose—
    Dr. Hill: I hope the hon. Member will not interrupt me, as I feel full of my reply.
    Investigations have been carried out in this country and it was reported in 1951 to our own Food Standards Committee that British fruit cordials and squashes diluted with four parts of water as usually drunk had a greater erosive action than phosphoric acid drinks. Some people testified about other drinks with more erosive action. Then there is caffein. There is as much caffein in a large bottle of cola drink as in a cup of coffee—and so what?
    Dr. Stross: What about the children?
    Dr. Hill:Nothing that this House or anybody else can do can compel parents to concentrate the drinking propensities of their children on a drink with a high hydrogen ion concentration. There is no real danger in the caffein content. For the rest, it is sugar, water, phosphoric acid and extracts from cocoa leaves and cola nuts and other flavouring material coloured with caramel.
    The hon. Member says they require labelling to indicate to the public the contents. I do not exclude that possibility. I would say that when that requirement was demanded for patent medicines the chemical formula which subsequently appeared on the labels conveyed nothing to the public except a sense of importance which is aroused in some people when they believe they are taking some unusually complicated medicine.
    It is going to the Food Standards Committee, but I would make this clear. The fact that soft drinks generally will be scrutinised by that Committee in relation to their ingredients and in relation to their acidity, and generally, does not arise from any fear of frightful dangers to the teeth of people in this country from this kind of drink. It is a matter of general routine.

    705
    The Food Standards Order is out of date. To the best of ray recollection, it requires the maximum strength of saccharine, the minimum strength of sugar content—in other words, the order is out of date. The Food Standards Committee will consider this whole range of drinks. That fact in no sense means that it is believed that frightful dangers arise from the consumption of such fluids. Let us get this matter perfectly clear. There is always this danger of erosion to teeth by acid foods and drinks. This particular class of drink seems to be in company with other very acceptable types of drink. Do not let us pick out this kind of drink.
    It should not be thought that I am expressing an affection for this particular cola drink. I have only tasted it once and I suspect that such joy as I experienced in the tasting was due to another lacing element which had been adventitiously added.
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    Do not let us get this matter out of perspective and out of proportion. It was a depressing thing for me when in this House ten days ago an hon. Friend asked me, "What is pH?," and I had unwillingly to stand here and say, "The negative of the logarithm of the hydrogen ion concentration measured in programmes per litre of solution. "That is the kind of scientific discussion we should not have in this House. We should be careful not to arouse undue fears and anxieties particularly in relation to the consumption of a group of drinks which, in the absence of the hon. Member for Ealing, North, I may dare to think are lacking in attraction to some of us, but which cannot, by and large, be considered to have contributed to our physical undoing or dental downfall.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

DOVER HARBOUR CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2ª, and committed to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [H.L.]
Read 2ª.
NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2ª.
ORPINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2ª.

CURRENCY AND BANK NOTES BILL
3.38 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, this Bill deals in three different ways with notes issued by the Bank of England. In the first place, it replaces powers formerly exercised under Defence (Finance) Regulations 7AA and 7AB. The powers regulating the amount of the fiduciary issue will in future be more closely controlled by Parliament. Secondly, it tidies up previous legislation in a manner which is little more than consolidation. Thirdly, it amends the law in what I think I may describe as minor matters. It will be recalled that up to 1914 the Bank of England could issue only notes of denominations of £5 and above. Under the Bank Notes Act of 1914, Treasury notes were issued for £1 and 10s. These two issues were amalgamated by the Act
688
of 1928, from which time only Bank of England notes had been issued. This Act gave the Bank the right to issue £1 and 10s. notes, as well as any denomination of note of £5 and above. Since 1945, notes above £5 have been demonetised.
In future, the denomination of notes issued by the Bank of England will require Treasury approval. Very broadly, the first clause brings the two classes of notes, that is, those of £5 and upwards, and below, on the same basis in future. Clause 2 refers to the amount of the fiduciary issue. Under the 1928 Act the fiduciary issue was set at £260 million, and was increased to £300 million under the Currency and Bank Notes Act, 1939. Since that date, extensions to the fiduciary issue have been made, under the Defence (Finance) Regulations already mentioned, without Parliamentary authority. Under the terms of the Bill the fiduciary issue is set at £1,575 million. That is the figure at which it is standing to— day. On the representation of the Bank of England the Treasury may direct at any time that the amount of this fiduciary issue may be altered, in either direction. Such alteration, however, will be valid only for a maximum period of six months, at the end of which time it can be renewed by a further Treasury direction for a further period of six months. Such direction will be given by a Treasury Minute which will be laid before Parliament. If, however, the amount of the fiduciary issue stands for two years above the figure mentioned in subsection (2) of Clause 2— that is, £1,575 million— in order to continue this arrangement the Treasury may order that this level of the fiduciary issue be continued for a further period of two years by Statutory Instrument which will be laid before Parliament and be subject to annulment.
To put it more shortly, alterations in the fiduciary issue as laid down in this Bill must be governed at least every six months by a direction from the Treasury. If the fiduciary issue is above the statutory limit, then at least every two years the matter must be laid before Parliament in the form of a Statutory Instrument which can be annulled. This arrangement, I think your Lordships will agree, gives closer Parliamentary control than exists at present when the fiduciary issue can be indefinitely varied without

689
reference to Parliament at all. I should, perhaps, add that the position of notes issued by Scottish banks remains exactly as it was before, and that Bank of England notes of denominations of £5 and upwards will continue not to be legal tender in that part of the United Kingdom.
I would refer to one provision in the Bill, subsection (5) of Clause 1, which the noble Lord, Lord Pethick— Lawrence (who has told me that he cannot be here to— day) has said at least cast a shadow of doubt into his mind— and, if it cast doubt into his mind, it might cast a shadow into the minds of other people. Therefore I should like to make the position clear. Under Clause 1 (5), the Bank of England have power, on giving notice, to call in any bank notes; and on expiry of the notice they will cease to be legal tender. This power may be necessary in the case of a new issue of notes or for similar reasons. But it is important to realise that even when a Bank of England note ceases to be legal tender, the promise to pay is still payable in legal tender of the time by the Bank of England. Indeed, I can say that any promise to pay, however old, in whatever form, will always be honoured by the Bank of England and paid in the legal tender current at the time of such request.
There is one other very small point 1 might mention which I think I can say is a typing error. In Clause 4, Short title, repeals and commencement, your Lordships will see at the side "7 & 8 Vict. c. 37." That should read: "8 & 9 Vict. c. 37," I hope your Lordships will agree that this is a measure which is appropriate at the present time because it gives additional Parliamentary control and because the fiduciary issue will be brought into line with modern requirements. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.— (The Earl of Selkirk.)
3.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence, who is very much more expert upon this question of currency than perhaps most of us here— we all remember with pleasure and profit the book that he published on it some twenty years ago— I need say only a few words. I welcome
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the statement that the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, has made with regard to subsection (5) of Clause 1. I need perhaps mention only one point. What I know my noble friend had in mind was that there might be some handicap in our banking stations, widely dispersed overseas in different parts of the Commonwealth, if there were any doubt at all about the point with which the noble Earl has now dealt. He has made it perfectly clear, and I think it would do all the good in the world for the statement he has made to be known in those directions. There is one other point to which I would draw attention. I have been reading the report of the debate in another place on this Government measure. The only point in the Bill which led to any length of debate there was in respect of what was described as a constitutional issue, in Clause 2, subsection (8). I noted the decision of the other place upon this particular issue and I do not intend, therefore, to speak on it at any length. But what interests me particularly is that the Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill says:
"The main purpose of this Bill is to put on to a permanent and statutory basis"
the provisions of the regulations, subject to certain conditions. Whilst I agree that there are wider constitutional issues to be brought in than the mere substance of this one Bill, nevertheless, I think it right to say, on behalf of my colleagues, that we have noted the debate in another place with great interest, and it must not be taken that at some future date in Parliamentary history we may not have to deal with it.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for what he has said. He is taking exception to the submission of regulations to both Houses of Parliament. It has beery the standard practice up to now, and was the standard practice in the late Government, to make statutory orders subject to agreement or annulment by both Houses. There are many examples that can be given which have a certain financial flavour, such as pensions ms agreements, exchange control and a number of things of that sort. So, there is nothing new about this; and this is not particularly a Finance Bill. I would ask the noble Viscount, should we he really right, in what amounts to something approaching Party recrimination, to reduce the power

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which Parliament has over the Executive? I think it is fair that the noble Viscount should consider that matter, and I say that even bearing in mind the very limited and moderate way in which he has referred to it. I suggest it is doubtful whether we should be right in allowing ourselves to be led into a position where just that much of the power of Parliament to question whatever the Executive may suggest is removed.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I am much obliged to the noble Earl. I do not want to debate the matter this afternoon; I only want to make it clear why I mentioned it. I entirely agree that there should be Parliamentary control over the Executive, but we do not know what future circumstances may be. When it comes to a question of dealing by statutory instrument with, let us say, the amount of the fiduciary issue, it might be very awkward for a Government if in some circumstances that could be annulled by that part of our Parliamentary constitution which is not responsible to the taxpayers by vote. This point is so mixed up with others coming within the ambit of this matter that I think it better to leave it to a later date.
On Question, Bill read 2ª; Committee negatived.

LICENSING (SEAMEN'S CANTEENS) BILL [H.L.]
3.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD LLOYD): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.— (Lord Lloyd.)
LORD MATHERS: My Lords, it may be convenient to your Lordships if on this Motion I make a few general remarks which I find I cannot attach to any of the Amendments that are to come. In connection with this Bill I find some concern in the minds of quite a number of people with regard to the interference, to some extent, with Sunday closing arrangements in Scotland, Wales and
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Monmouthshire. I have not attempted to put down an Amendment on this matter— it would not be appropriate at this late stage of the Bill— but I want to say that, while that interference is received with concern, there is the compensating fact that the control of these canteens is brought under the local licensing authority and they are liable to police inspection at any time. That is a balance of considerations which I would point out to those who are concerned about the infringement, as it were, of Scottish and Welsh law in this connection. I am not objecting to the Amendments— in fact, I welcome them— and I hope that those who have the responsibility hereafter of controlling these canteens will fully realise (I am talking more particularly in respect of Scotland and Wales) their responsibilities in the matter, and will endeavour to see that nothing untoward or injurious occurs as a result of what is done by this Bill.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, since the noble Lord has raised this matter may I just say this. He has referred to the strong feeling that exists in Scotland and Wales about Sunday closing, but I am sure that he is aware that these canteens have operated, on a slightly different basis, for a number of years. There are special circumstances connected with seamen which make such a divergence from the usual practice at any rate excusable, even in the minds of the Scots and the Welsh. The noble Lord will remember that, to the best of my ability, I represent Wales in this House. Therefore, I do not think that he need really fear this measure. After all, it is only the continuance of an existing practice, which I think has become accepted in both those parts of the United Kingdom, and I am quite certain—I will give the noble Lord this assurance— that in carrying out the provisions of this Bill, the authorities concerned will bear in mind what he has said.
LORD MATHERS: I thank the noble Lord very much.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
The references are to Bill No. 41 as first printed for the House of Commons.]
Clause 1, page 1, line 7, after ("Minister") insert (" after consultation with the Merchant Navy Welfare Board,").
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, this is quite a simple Amendment. It merely writes into the Bill an undertaking given by the Government when the Bill was debated in your Lordships' House. I told your Lordships that before the Minister issues a certificate with regard to any of the canteens, he would, in practice consult with the Merchant Navy Welfare Board. There was a request in another place that, since this is what the Minister, in fact, did, it should be written into the Bill. Her Majesty's Government feel that that is a perfectly reasonable request, and that is the reason why this Amendment was made in another place. I therefore beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Lloyd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 2, page 2, line 4, at end insert ("or
(d) that the applicant or the body providing the canteen has entered into an agreement limiting the sources from which the intoxicating liquor or the mineral waters to be sold in the canteen may be obtained.")
Clause 4, page 3, line 27, at end insert ("or
(c) that the manager or the body providing the canteen has entered into an agreement of the kind mentioned in paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of section two of this Act.")
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, the object of these Amendments, which are consequential, is quite simple: it is that the Bill should provide against any of these canteens becoming, if I may express it in this way, tied houses— that is to say, that they have contracts with one particular brewery or supplier of intoxicating liquor for the whole of their supply. I am not raising the general question of tied houses, but I am sure we should all agree that it would be most undesirable that these canteens should enter into any such agreements or should became in any way tied houses. In point of fact, they are not commercial undertakings, they never have operated as tied houses, and I do not think there is any likelihood that they ever would. But, since the point was raised in another place, it was felt desirable that a specific provision should be put into the Bill to prevent such a thing happening. That is the reason why
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this Amendment has been inserted. My Lords, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.— (Lord Lloyd.)
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I certainly agree, and on behalf of my colleagues I should like to say that we appreciate the consideration which has been given by the Government in this matter, and that these Amendments have been accepted. We think they will improve the Bill.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 2, page 2, line 15, at end insert—
(" (3) Any licence granted under this Act shall provide that at all times at which intoxicating liquor is sold food and beverages other than those of an intoxicating character shall also be provided for sale.")
LORD LLOYDM: My Lords, this Amendment also is not a difficult one. It emanates, I think, from the temperance interests in another place— I am sure the noble Viscount, Lard Stansgate will approve of that; he is always a very temperate Member— and it provides that where intoxicating liquor is sold, equally there shall be provision for those who do not believe in intoxicating liquor, and that soft drinks and also food shall be provided. This is only putting into the Bill what already happens in all these canteens; indeed, it puts less of an obligation upon the canteens than they already fulfil. Therefore Her Majesty's Government have no objection to accepting the Amendment. I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons to the said Amendment.— (Lord Lloyd.)
On Question. Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 12, page 8, line 10, leave out ("fifth day of April,") and insert ("first day of July,").
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, this Amendment is slightly more complicated, though in essence there is nothing very difficult about it. It is a question of the actual licensing sessions of the local authorities and the date of the operation of the Bill. I think I ought to explain it fully to your Lordships go that you may

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fully to your Lordships, so that you may understand why the Amendment is inserted. As your Lordships will see, Clause 12 (2) of the Bill fixes the appointed day on which Defence Regulation 60AA, which is the Regulation under which these canteens are at present operated, is to be repealed and the first new licences under the Bill are to come into force; and that date is fixed for April 5 in England and Wales and May 28 in Scotland. These are obviously suitable dates because they mark the beginning of the licensing year when, ordinarily, new or renewed licences come into force. When the Bill was introduced into your Lordships' House on November 10 it was thought— and I think quite reasonably— that it would reach the Statute Book before now. I need hardly say that with the very efficient, streamlined procedure of your Lordships' House, there was no delay here. Unfortunately, pressure of business in another place before Christmas made it impossible to find time for Second Reading before the House adjourned, and it is now impossible for the Bill to receive the Royal Assent until next week.
If your Lordships will look at Clause 10 (1) you will see that it has the effect that an application for a new licence under the Bill must be made in England either at Brewster Sessions or at Transfer Sessions. For those of your Lordships who are not cognisant of the technical terminology, I would explain that Brewster Sessions are when licences are normally renewed and when new licences can be obtained. The difference between Brewster Sessions and Transfer Sessions, broadly speaking, is that you cannot get a new licence at Transfer Sessions; you can get a new licence only at Brewster Sessions. Therefore, there is a certain importance attaching to this difference between the two. Under paragraph 1 (1) (c) of the First Schedule, your Lordships will observe that twenty-one days' notice must be given of an application. Therefore, to give managers of canteens a reasonable chance to apply for and obtain a licence between the passing of
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the Bill and the repeal of the Defence Regulation, it would be necessary for either Brewster or Transfer Sessions to be held some time in the month of March in each licensing district in which there is an existing canteen. In point of fact, this will not happen. For example, in Paddington— where there is a canteen— we have found that both parts of Brewster Sessions are to be held in the first half of February.
Under the Second Schedule to the Licensing Act 1953, Brewster Sessions have to be held on at least two days, the first in the first fortnight of February and the second between six days and one month after the first. Under Section 20 of that Act, licensing justices must hold not less than four or more than eight Transfer Sessions in the year at as nearly regular intervals as may be. The only object of this long discourse is to show your Lordships that it is possible, as in the case of Paddington, for Brewster Sessions to be completed in February and for no Transfer Sessions to be held for more than two months afterward. The result would be that the Defence Regulations would lapse and it would be impossible to obtain new licences. Therefore, there would be a long period when the people concerned would be in a vacuum, as it were, with no licence whatsoever. The proposed Amendment will, accordingly, defer the appointed day for England and Wales from April 5 to July 1. That ought to give the managers of all existing canteens a reasonable opportunity to apply for licences at one of the Sessions before the Defence Regulation is repealed. No change is necessary in Scotland, because the licensing year there begins later, and there ought to be enough time for the existing canteens to get their new licences before May 28, provided that the Bill receives the Royal Assent before March 9. I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.— (Lord Lloyd.)
On Question. Motion agreed to.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) (SCOTLAND) BILL
4.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bi11.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.— (The Earl of Selkirk.)
LORD MATHERS: My Lords, I think it may be appropriate for me just to say a valedictory word with regard to this Bill on this Motion. When we had the Second Reading on Tuesday, I indicated that there was a possibility that some attempt would be made to amend the Bill during the Committee stage. From the consultations that I have had, however, it has become clear that any attempt at amending the Bill could not bring complete satisfaction to everybody. Here there is being allocated a restricted sum of money, albeit quite a large sum, and to amend the Bill in favour of any individual local authority would mean that other authorities would have to suffer. None of us, I am sure, is prepared to bring disappointment to those who have already been given an indication of what they are to receive as a result of the passage of the Bill, nor do we wish to delay the passage of the Bill and therefore delay the payment out of the funds that are made available. So I say definitely that we should allow the Bill to pass as quickly as possible. Certainly I cannot find a possibility of moving any Amendment that I should look for this House to accept. That is the general statement I wish to make on this Motion.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for what he has said. I think that the view which he is taking is a sensible one. It may be that, in places, there are elements of rough justice in this Bill, the Bill being as complicated as it is, but we are satisfied that the Secretary of State has got, as a whole, a very much better deal for the Scottish local authorities than was the case before. We are pleased for their sakes, even if the allocation may not be theoretically correct in every respect.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment

THE INTERNATIONAL LABOUR ORGANISATION
4.10 p.m.
LORD LAWSON LORD LAWSON rose to draw attention to the Seventh Report of the International Labour Organisation to the United Nations, 1953; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I. beg to move the Motion which stands on the Order Paper in my name. The Report to which the Motion relates is not exactly a bedside book. It runs to something over 400 pages, and it deals with matters of very great interest to this nation and to the other nations who are members of this Organisation. There are some sixty six nations which are members of the I.L.O., about two-thirds of them European and (he rest largely Asian. Your Lordships may be interested to know that this is the first time since the end of the war that the Annual Report of the I.L.O. has been considered by your Lordships' House. It is perhaps still more remarkable, when one remembers the long and heated, and sometimes acrimonious, debates on the I.L.O. on past occasions, that, apart from a short debate on the Adjournment in another place, this is the first time that the Report has been considered by Parliament As a member of the governing body of the in Geneva, and Chairman of what was called the 408 Committee, which dealt with the reports received from the various countries, I had to face great difficulties in the past. I think the absence of debate in Parliament is due to the fact that the deep changes in the wages and conditions of the workers have almost removed this Report from the area of controversy. Nevertheless, as I have watched events internationally in the field of industry and labour, I felt it necessary that this Report should be considered, and so I put down the Motion which is now before your Lordships.
I hope that your Lordships will forgive me if for a few moments I turn to the historical growth of the movement which led to the establishment of the International Labour Office—as it was then called. I remember, as most noble Lords of my age will remember, the time when, at the end of the First World War, the late Lloyd George made the anouncement that an International Labour Office was to be established as part of the Treaty of Peace. I remember the thrill with

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which I heard that announcement. As one who has taken considerable interest in industrial affairs and their impact on other countries, few things have given me greater pleasure than that announcement. From the earliest days of the nineteenth century, when the development of industry began to impress itself upon the people of this country and of other countries in Europe, men of every Party and of every class became concerned about the impact of poor conditions of labour upon those countries which had better standards for their workpeople. As Robert Owen said at a conference on the Continent, he did his best to improve conditions of his workmen and increased the price of his goods, but he saw other countries which took advantage of that and placed him at a disadvantage in doing business. Over the nineteenth century it became clear that the existence of poor wages and low social standards anywhere in the world menaced the better working and social conditions and higher wages that might exist anywhere else. So, stage by stage, the trade unions, Liberals and Conservatives, men in every class, struggled for a general betterment of working conditions in all countries alike. I recall that the late J. W. Hill, who represented Durham, was an enthusiast— some talked of him as almost a "crank "— on this question. The late Mr. Arthur Henderson, father of my noble friend Lord Henderson, was perhaps one of the most valiant figures in this movement. He played no mean part in helping to bring this organisation to life.
While it was one thing to hold conferences of voluntary bodies in support of this idea, it was quite another to find a way to make the organisation sound and effective. One country, at least, thought that all they had to do, when the I.L.O. was finally established, was to have a law passed through the Organisation; that the law would apply to the whole world, and that would be the end of it. But things in the early twentieth century had so developed throughout the world of industry that something of a practical nature had to be done. It was travelling uncharted country in the experience of mankind. Finally, the way out was found by deciding on a convention, something on the lines of a treaty, between the different countries. Any subject— hours of labour
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conditions in factories, on the land, or in the mines— could be dealt with under the convention; and if a country ratified the convention then it had to give reports from time to time about how it was operating it. The snag of it all was that if a country did not ratify, then it need not report, which made it rather a one-sided business. I have had the experience, as a Government representative of this country, of being bombarded in the I.L.O. Conference by people who had not accepted the convention. I have also had the experience of sitting as Chairman of the 408 Committee listening to reports which were enthusiastic and good to listen to, but which were more eloquent than factual.
But when the I.L.O. came under the League of Nations it was clearly recognised that the convention method was limited and had this defect of being one-sided. Under the new régime there was added to the convention a provision that if a recommendation was made by the Conference in certain circumstances all countries who were members had to operate that recommendation and give reports upon it, irrespective of whether or not they ratified it. There is one thing I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, who is to reply upon this particular matter. I am astonished to find that the reports on either the conventions or the recommendations are not very regular. I have here what is called the Provisional Record of the 36th Session of Geneva. It is the report of a committee that was set up to inquire into why the reports were not coming in as they ought to. On the first page it says:
" While the position is not so unsatisfactory in the case of the annual reports, most of which have now been received, there has been little improvement as regards reports on un-ratified conventions and recommendations. Ever since 1949, when these reports were requested by the governing body for the first time, only about half of the number due have actually been received from year to year."
That is very bad indeed. I mention it only to lead up to another proposal I want to make upon this matter, because it seems to me that things are not going as they ought to in regard to the reports on these two important items of conventions and recommendations.
Further alterations were made when the I.L.O. came under the United Nations, and good changes they were, too. There

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was what is called the regional conference: that is an important gathering sometimes dealing with technical matters of the various trades, sometimes with social matters, sometimes with the age at which children should be allowed to work, and sometimes with general social standards. In addition, there are what are called advisory social gatherings, with sometimes five or six members representing the I.L.O., who meet the representatives of labour, employers and Governments in the countries concerned. If anyone takes the trouble to read the report he will find a good deal that is heartening and encouraging in reference to the efforts to build bridges between one country and another, between East and West, and on social and industrial matters. The Director General and, indeed, the governing body of the I.L.O., are perturbed about the fact that they have had to cut out so much necessary work because of the lack of finance. From pages 1 to 9 instances are given of, say, a European conference cut out, a Near East conference cut out and a conference upon such a worthy subject as rehabilitation, which was asked for, I think, by Denmark, cut out. I will not give details about the other two, but I should think that if the International Labour Organisation has interest in one thing which is important, it is certainly the rehabilitation of men and women who, for various reasons, are recovering from injuries and need to be retrained for either their own trade or some other trade.
I wish to remind your Lordships' House that at all these conferences there are employers' representatives (and it has been my lot to know some very fine men among them), in addition to those who represent the trade unions. I hope that the Government are not among those who wish either to reduce or to stabilise expenditure upon work of this kind. In a regional conference, for instance, there are representatives of the employers, the workers and the Governments, and apart from their work in dealing with technical matters, I know of no more ideal method of reaching friendship between the countries than through conferences of this kind. I will not spend any time over the technical committees, but I wish to say that my experience at the I.L.O. as for about two years the Government representative convinced me that there is no more effective method of ensuring
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that the reporting of conventions, recommendations,. or any useful information we want will be factual and solid than by treating the I.L.O. as we treat industry in this country— that is, by having skilled inspectors who can see at first hand where there is anything wrong.
In that respect, I wish to propose that the Government should recommend to the International Labour Organisation at an early stage that there should be a corps of trained inspectors who can visit countries and return with information as to conditions which are prevailing. I do not care which country it is. If it is some country which is closing its doors, if it is a member of this Organisation, then its factories, mines and workshops should be subject to investigation, just as are ours by our inspectors, and should, if necessary, be dealt with by the inspectors. For instance, take Japan. I do not wish to raise again a controversy which has been raised recently, but this matter has been in my mind for many years. I understand that changes have taken place in Japan in respect of employment, wages and a good many other things. I hope that is so. But has Japan, for instance, accepted the Minimum Age for Children Convention? Has she accepted the minimum hours? We are not exactly clear upon this score.
We had not too good a record in the early part of the nineteenth century. That was rather a bad patch in our social history. But there is this to be said for us: we were the first to have experience of this new thing called industry— factories, mines and workshops— and there was no previous experience to help us. Now we know how devastating can be the effect of long hours in factories or workshops upon children of tender years. Some of us have been round the world a little and seen things which would cause deep indignation here. It is all very well for the smaller, undeveloped countries, some of them just striking out; I would not say a single word which would make their work any more difficult. But Japan is one of the great nations in industry. It may be that her industry will hear the light of day and he open to investigation. At any rate, whether it be her or any of the other great nations who are members of the I.L.O., I believe it is time that there were skilled investigators

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or inspectors attached to the I.L.O. in order that we might have some sure and certain knowledge of what was going on in some of these countries which have been fully developed since the I.L.O. started.
I do not wish to take up any more time except to say that, though I may appear to have been rather critical, I do not forget the fine work of the I.L.O., particularly in the years since the war and, indeed, since the beginning of the International Labour Office. I do not wish to say a single word which would give the impression that I am anything but enthusiastic about the work of the I.L.O. When one considers that the representatives from the employers, workers and Governments of sixty-six countries pool their great experience and link country with country in order to deal with the deep problems of industry; that they meet at regular intervals and give freely of their experience, then one realises that the world owes these men and women a deep debt of gratitude for their work. If there is anything that we can do to help in one of the greatest tasks to which mankind has been called, then nothing should be allowed to hinder that work, which is of the greatest importance, not only to the world of industry but also to the world which longs for co-operation and understanding among the peoples of the earth. I beg to move for Papers.
4.41 p.m.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, this is the first occasion on which I have had the honour of speaking in your Lordships' House, and I am sure that you will be good enough to extend to me the indulgence customarily shown to the inexperienced. As the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has reminded us, those of us who shared the enthusiasm and idealism which prevailed at the time of the birth of the League of Nations will always have a special affection for the International Labour Office— the only part of the organisation then set up which still retains substantially its original character. The International Labour Office is an organisation set up to work for peace by peaceful means. It has never relied upon policies of sanctions, either economic or military, and the only means upon which
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it can count for the enforcement of its decisions is the force of enlightened public opinion.
If we are realistic, we may doubt the adequacy of the prescription of universal peace written into the original constitution of the I.L.O. and reaffirmed in the Declaration of Philadelphia on the conclusion of the Second World War; but we can have no doubts about the urgent necessity of improved standards of living for large groups of the human family. Nor can we doubt that the removal of social injustices is properly linked with the attainment of a state of peace. But I think we should be very concerned that in the pursuit of the practical policies which the I.L.O. initiates; the objective of securing peace— the very raison d'être of its existence and labours— is never for one moment lost sight of. It is very easy to lose sight of an end or an aim through over-preoccupation with the means by which it is sought to achieve it. To the I.L.O., even such good objectives as the removal of poverty, or of concern over the uneven pace of development in different parts of the world, must not become a satisfying aim.
In reading this Report which your Lordships are considering to-day, I confess to some feeling of uneasiness on this account. There is reference after reference to the necessity for increased productivity to raise living standards. I think we should do well to watch carefully this urge for more productivity without any discrimination or qualification. Production for destruction may increase wealth— at any rate for a time— but such production is far from promoting the end of peace. It is bad enough when individuals lose sight of this possibility, but it is infinitely more deplorable and dangerous if Governments get involved in efforts to stimulate production without any regard to the purposes which the increased production may serve. I know that it is extremely difficult to make distinctions, and that it is generally true that what man can use for beneficent purposes he can equally well use for destructive purposes. But I think that some note of warning should be sounded, lest the good intentions of this Organisation be frustrated and turned to purposes repugnant to its declared aim.

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There is a field of service where there can be no doubt of its high purpose. Turkey recently asked for advice on the reorganisation and expansion of its nursing service. It is to the credit of this country that this advice was given, through the British Council, but that is the sort of service to which I should like to see greater attention paid under the Technical Assistance Programme. There is another aspect of this problem which I think we should keep in mind. In the field of progress we are coming to realise more clearly that there is, at best, a very small and a very slow overall advance. We find so often that progress in one field is accompanied by a recession in another field; that advances, for instance, in the field of medical science in prolonging life bring new problems in the field of nutrition; that the payment of better wages in one area may create trouble from or in an adjacent area. There are many such examples which will readily occur to the minds of your Lordships where beneficial work in one field is a stimulant to misery in another.
There is one aim so closely related to the aim of peace to which I have already referred that I feel that it, too, must be regarded as of overriding importance, amid all the good intentions and good works of an organisation such as the I L.O.—I refer, of course, to the freedom of every human being. Under the auspices of the I.L.O. very important investigations have been made into the desirable minima of social security benefits and into the conditions of migrant workers, particularly in what we have came to call the undeveloped territories. It is only too possible, in enthusiasm over such projects— in themselves entirely beneficial—to lose sight of the overriding need of the human spirit for freedom. Even in countries which do not profess a totalitarian outlook we find creeping in the imposition of obligations in return for material benefits. We cannot view without some concern an increasing insistence by Governments that they are entitled to require from their citizens the obligation to work. If their citizens fall down on this obligation, or if they fall to perform it to the satisfaction of some official— and we know how the exercise of power is apt to breed in officials s tendency to tyranny— we are already along the road to some form of Govern-
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ment direction, or even forced labour.So may be smothered the deeply— rooted aspirations of humanity for freedom and for work in conditions of freedom.
In addition to saying that I would wish that the International Labour Organisation placed a renewed and even greater emphasis upon these two great aims of peace and freedom, there are two other suggestions which I should like to make for your Lordships' consideration. As you know, the International Labour Organisation has its own Constitution, with its own separate membership, and its own budget. There should, perhaps, be no such great difficulties in securing universal membership as have been apparent in the United Nations Organisation. In November last, the Soviet Government expressed a desire for membership of the International Labour Organisation. It is true that they raised an objection to one of the articles of the Constitution, and to the proportion of representation from worker associations. I think the Constitution has been amended two or three times since 1920, so there is no rigidity in this matter, provided that there is agreement among members. The good offices of some of the countries associated with Soviet Russia who are members might, I suggest, be invoked to persuade Soviet Russia to assume membership on the same basis as themselves. I am sure there will he general agreement in this House that, Soviet Russia having expressed this desire for membership, the matter should not be allowed to rest.
The other suggestion is one which I should like Her Majesty's Government to consider carefully. The Reports, particularly the Reports on Forced Labour, Migrant Workers and Indigenous Peoples, have provided a great deal of information about conditions in under-developed territories. As the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has said, the devoted staff of the dose eve our thanks for the efforts they have made in bringing to our notice this information on the many problems of those territories, but the territories are so vast and so varied that it is impossible to try to legislate for them as a whole. It is true that the French, with their preference for tidy solutions, have adopted a labour code for their overseas territories, but many of the regulations in it, I understand,

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have not yet been introduced, and the variety of conditions in different territories in the French Union has been recognised in the exceptions which are permitted. I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the facilities which exist in the different areas under the control of the Colonial Office for consultation between the local Government, the indigenous population and the local industries— who, if the real costs of production are not to be disguised, must carry the burden of the proper protection of the labour they employ— and with the cooperation given by those three parties to the International Labour Organisation; and, further, whether Her Majesty's Government feel that there is a really satisfactory and effective link with this international agency.
I believe that some more steps are necessary to reduce to manageable proportions the particular problems of differing areas. As the second largest contributor to the cost of this Organisation, we in this country have a special duty to see that its work is as effective as possible. There is at present, many will feel, something of an air of unreality and ineffectiveness in its work. It is surely not without significance that the number of ratifications, to which the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has referred, by the territories of or administered by the countries most progressively minded in the advocacy of co-operation between management and labour has been very small. To-day, what happens in one part of the world affects quickly and directly those who live in another part. In consequence, so much has to be known and taken into account. The work of the I.L.O. will he most useful if it does not become overwhelmed by the immensity of the tasks that it tackles. And this, I suggest, can be avoided only if it has full co-operation locally in the different regions which make up the world which is its field of operation.
4.54 p.m.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, it falls to me to offer congratulations on behalf of all quarters in the House to the noble Lord who has just spoken. I am sure we have all listened with great pleasure and interest to his maiden
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speech. I hope we shall be hearing his voice frequently, now that he has "broken the ice," for I am sure he will have useful contributions to make to our discussions.
We are all indebted to my noble friend Lord Lawson for initiating this debate in order to draw attention to the International Labour Organisation and the vitally important work for which it is responsible. He told us that this is the first Parliamentary discussion on this subject that has taken place for several years. That. I think, is a surprising and regrettable fact. I hope that in future the Annual Report of the I.L.O. to the United Nations will be made the occasion for a special debate in your Lordships' House, because this is one of the best means of focusing public attention and building up an informed and supporting public opinion on matters which directly concern the whole body of our working population, for low standards in one country can be a menace to the higher standards in another. My noble friend, who speaks with special knowledge and authority on labour and industrial matters" referred to the early history of the I.L.O. and paid a well-deserved tribute to its work. He also stressed the hampering effects of inadequate financial resources, and when he discussed the I.L.O. conventions he pointed to the desirability of having a corps of trained inspectors to assist in ensuring that ratifying States do in fact give proper effect to them in practice. I hope Her Majesty's Government will look with sympathy at that suggestion.
Let me go back to the beginning for a moment. The declared purpose of the I.L.O.— the noble Lord who preceded me made a brief reference to it— when it was established within the framework of the League of Nations was deliberately associated with the achievement of universal peace. It is well to recall the terms in which this purpose was stated, because the work of the I.L.O. is as relevant to the circumstances and conditions of our troubled times as it was in its origins and has been over the whole period of its development and operation. It was declared in the preamble of the I.L.O.s principles that universal peace
"can be established only if it is based on social justice."

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It went on to say that
"conditions of labour exist involving such hardship, injustice and privation to large numbers of people as to produce unrest so great that peace and harmony of the world are imperilled; and an improvement of those conditions is urgently needed."
I do not think that anyone would deny that such a description of the situation which called the I.L.O. into existence thirty-five years ago is equally true of the world to-day.
Nations are faced with grave economic and social problems as well as deep political troubles, following the Second World War. We have to take increasing account of the social and human implications of the rise of nationalism in Asia and Africa. There is the urgent need of the under-developed areas for extensive practical aid in a variety of forms. If the I.L.O. had not already been in existence, there would have been an irresistible need for its creation. It is therefore of first importance that its constructive activities and practical efforts should not be discouraged or fettered; on the contrary, it should be enabled to the fullest extent possible to continue with its positive work which has already had notable results in many countries.
As we all know, there have been great and fundamental changes in the relations of nations, and in the machinery of international co-operation, since the aims and purposes of the I.L.O. were formulated. The League of Nations has been replaced by the United Nations, which has set up its own multiple organisations, among them the Economic and Social Council which, to some extent, perhaps, overlaps the activities of the I.L.O. But the I.L.O. is now one of the inter-governmental specialised agencies, and we on this side of the House believe that the I.L.O. has a vitally important responsibility and a variety of functions to perform— as it has consistently carried them on for more than a generation now— and no development in international relations has taken place which, in our view, can justify any curtailment of the I.L.O.'s activities or of its organisation or methods of work. It is important, I think, to stress the fact that the I.L.O., with its sixty-six member countries, is unique in its form and functions. It is the only international body with a Tripartite structure, being representative of Governments, employers and workers. It will be readily
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understood, therefore, that the British trade unions and the International Free Trade Union Movement, which represents tens of millions of workers in different countries,, are deeply concerned that nothing shall be done to impair the successful functioning of the I.L.O., and want to see the continued development of its fruitful activities.
I am not going to attempt to summarise the results of the work in the year covered by the Annual Report to which the Motion refers. As my noble friend has already said, that Report, together with its informative appendices, occupies nearly 450 pages. What I am concerned to emphasise is that the guiding principle of all the activities has been to seek to bring into existence by its own well-tried methods international minimum standards of social and industrial life. As has been stated, those methods are to give effect through its general annual conferences to conventions, recommendations and resolutions. My noble friend has dealt with the follow-up action by Governments, both by wit), of ratification and implementation, and by annual reports to the I.L.O., and I will not go over the ground again. But it is in the field of industrial conditions and relationships that the work of the I.L.O. has been a potent influence directed towards the establishment of minimum standards of life and labour. Conventions dealing with such varied problems as protection of wages, equal pay, hours of work, rest periods, employment services, the work of children and juveniles at night, maternity protection, and many ether problems of our time, have been ratified by a majority of the member States.
For a decade— that is, since the I.L.O. Conference in Philadelphia in 1944— the I.L.O. activities have been pointed towards the development of programmes among the nations to achieve full employment, to raise living standards, to develop methods of dealing with employment problems, the training of workers, the transfer of labour, migration, the safeguarding and extension of the principles of collective bargaining, and the improvement of management-and-labour relations in the practice of co-operative activities, particularly in the raising of the standards of productivity.
In my opinion, no one can reasonably contend that the I L O., having regard

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to the wide-ranging activities in which it is engaged, is excessively endowed with financial resources. My noble friend Lord Lawson devoted a part of his speech to the financial position of the I.L.O., and I will therefore make my remarks quite brief. Any curtailment of the work of the I.L.O. as a consequence of inadequate financial provision would be deplorable. In our view, the present financial resources of the I.L.O. are insufficient. It has to work on a basis of priorities, and, as the Report indicates and my noble friend specified, many important projects which it is desirable for the I.L.O. to undertake have had to be postponed. We on this side of the House would regard with dismay the possibility of the I.L.O. having also to cut down its staff, as appears to be the wish of some people.
We have an uneasy feeling that there are influences at work directed towards restrictions upon the organisation, policy and methods of the I.L.O. These do not take the form simply of an economy campaign directed against the I.L.O. staffing organisation and administration. There has been a propaganda in some quarters which would have the effect of transforming the International Labour Conference from its present status as a quasi-legislative body engaged in framing conventions and recommendations, into something like an international forum of discussion. Since the inception of the I.L.O. 103 conventions have been adopted on a wide variety of subjects. These conventions have attracted over 1,400 ratifications, the United Kingdom being one of the member states with the highest number of ratifications to its credit. My Lords, it is generally agreed that these standards have greatly influenced industrial legislation and practice. It would be a serious, retrograde step to abandon the convention-making machinery and function of the I.L.O., and it is one that would, I am sure, he resolutely opposed both by the British trade unions and by the International Free Trade Union Movement. In our view, it is of the highest importance that the formulation and adoption of international standards should continue in the future, as in the past, to be a major function of the International Labour Conference.
There are some other parts of the machinery of the I.L.O.— namely, the industrial committees— which have been
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under attack from the employers' side. We feel uneasy about suggestions that have been made about the functioning of these industrial committees— one of them being a proposal that the separate countries should pay all the expenses of their delegations to industrial committee meetings, which would mean their transfer from the I.L.O. to the respective Governments, and would probably have the effect that Governments in distant countries would decide to send no delegates. After all, those participating in a particular industry are most likely to know where the troubles lie and the particular direction in which solutions may be sought.
I would remind the House that it was the late Ernest Bevin who saw that the problems of particular industries could best be handled by representatives of the industries themselves, in industrial committees specially constituted for that purpose. We attach importance to those industrial committees, as we do also to the Maritime Session of the I.L.O. and the permanent Agricultural Committee of the I.L.O. The Maritime Conference has just brought to a conclusion some very important discussions on the welfare of Asian seafarers. In the autumn of last year, under I.L.O. auspices, there was a conference at Colombo of, I think, twelve Asian countries; and after ten days' discussion that conference reached agreed conclusions on such questions as the recruitment and employment of Asian seafarers in the industry, legislation dealing with maritime affairs in Asian countries, and the development of representative organisations among Asian seafarers and ship-owners.
Discussion on these matters intimately affecting the well-being of all Asian seafarers was all the more significant because, of course, the conference, as with all other I.L.O. conferences, was on a tripartite basis. The workers' representatives were much encouraged, one gathers from their report, by the measure of agreement reached— in particular on the necessity of promoting machinery for collective bargaining and consultation between ship-owners, seafarers and Governments. Collective bargaining in that area is less effective than it should be, because few responsible organisations exist on either side, and the conference,

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therefore, recommended that the Governing Body should draw the attention of all Asian maritime States to the desirability of fostering and recognising the formation of representative organisations within the shipping industry. The conference also urged Governments to consult regularly with such stable and representative organisations on all matters concerning the drafting and application of laws for maritime labour. It recognised the need for associating such organisations, so far as possible, with Government maritime institutions dealing with flatters in which ship-owners and seafarers have a common interest.
It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of agreements on such matters as these, affecting, as they do, all the maritime nations, but particularly our own, since our Merchant Navy employs a considerable number of Asian seamen. No other body than the I.L.O. exists which could have called into being such a gathering as the Asian Seafarers' Conference, and guided it to such conclusions as were reached on the application of the principles of free association and trade union organisation of Asian seamen; on the recruitment of Asian seamen; on the provision of a reasonable freedom of choice for ship-owners in the selection of crews and for seafarers in the choice of ships; and upon the development of better and more extended welfare arrangements in Asian ports. I mention the work of this particular conference in order to emphasise the far-reaching significance of such I.L.O machinery as its Maritime Session and its industrial committees. These committees, in coal mining, inland transport, iron and steel, metal trades, textile building, civil engineering and public works, petroleum and the chemical industries, are doing valuable and, indeed, dispensable work in concentrating on problems of human relations in these industries, and upon the problem of maintaining high and improving standards of productivity and employment. It seems to us on this side of the House that all possible support should be given to the industrial committees, and that any proposal which would weaken them in their important work should be discouraged and opposed by Her Majesty's Government.
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My Lords, when we speak of aid to the under-developed countries, it is frequently said that the policy of the advanced industrial nations is to help those areas to help themselves. We on these Benches regard as an essential factor in lifting the under-developed areas to higher standards of social and economic well-being a strong and free trade union movement. It is an important part of the I.L.O.'s activities to help in the development of such movements. In 1948, the Freedom of Association Convention was adopted, laying down the fundamental guarantees which workers and employers organisations should have. In 1949, a second convention was adopted specifying the measures which ratifying Governments should undertake to ensure the free exercise of the right to organise and to collective bargaining. In 1950, 1951, and 1952, the conference adopted recommendations on collective agreements and conciliation and arbitration, collective bargaining machinery and co-operation at plant level. These standards have had a good influence, and the work has been a valuable contribution in this most vital. field.
Here again, however, the standards need supplementing by effective practical action. A recognition of this fact was the establishment of a fact-finding and conciliation commission. Its object is to provide international facilities for the impartial examination, in an atmosphere free from political prejudice of any kind, or of propaganda in any interest whatsoever, of alleged violations of trade union rights. The complaints received and the action taken upon them by a committee of the governing body show how important such action can be. I think the fact that Appendix 5 of the Report runs to 220 pages, and is devoted to this question of freedom of association, shows the importance which the Governing Body of the I.L.O. attaches to it.
There are other matters of importance to which one might usefully refer. I will, however, say only this in conclusion. Over a long period of years the I.L.O. has been consistently working out a longterm social policy, by methods of counsel and common agreement among Governments, employers, and organised bodies of work people. I commend to your Lordships a study of its Seventh

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Annual Report to the United Nations. It is a veritable compendium of international social, economic and industrial problems. It contains a vast amount of encouraging evidence of the progress that is being made towards the attainment of the basic objectives of the I.L.O. in building up high standards in the world generally and in equalising, by a process of up-grading, the conditions of employment and welfare, though, of course, a great deal still remains to be done. The aims of the I.L.O. and its well-tried methods should command our support, and our support in my view entails resistance to any proposal which would have the effect of weakening or curtailing the I.L.O. in any respect.
5.21 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this debate, but I am moved to do so for a few minutes by two considerations. The first is a desire to join in congratulating my noble friend Lord Grantchester, who has to-day made his maiden speech. I know he devotes his life largely to the promotion of organisations that aim at the spreading of a wise spirit of internationalism in the world, and I am not surprised that he should have chosen to make his first speech on a question such as this, relating to the International Labour Organisation. I feel sure that if he will take an active part in the work of your Lordship's House, we shall benefit by his wide knowledge and the deep sincerity of his interests. The other reason why I am rising to speak is that I think it is desirable that the world should know that your Lordships' House, and all quarters of it, do take an interest in the I.L.O. What is being said to-day will be noted by those who are interested in the subject in the Parliaments of those other countries— sixty-six of them— which are members of the I.L.O. We are grateful, therefore, to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, for his initiative in bringing this matter for the first time before your Lordships' House.
The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, who has made a particularly well-informed speech of a comprehensive character, as his speeches always are, said he would go back to the foundation of the I.L.O. thirty-four years ago, but I can go back
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well beyond that, to its antenatal history, for the first beginnings of what is now so great an organisation, widespread all over the world, was in the early years of the present century, when voluntary organisations in various countries, but particularly in this country and in France, laid the foundations of a new international organisation. It was realised by progressive-minded people in most countries that the advance in the welfare of the working classes and the improvement of the conditions of labour must depend to a great extent on international co-operation, for any country that took the lead would be liable to be, and indeed was, affected by competition from other nations whose conditions of labour were at a much lower standard. Of course, it is a great mistake to think that cheap labour always means low costs. It is not so, as the best paid labour is the most efficient, and it is often the case that the cost of production is lower in countries with high wages than in countries which are not so advanced industrially and economically. But still, the fact remains that there are many cases in which progressive movements in one country are handicapped by the fact that that country's trade rivals are not proceeding in the same direction and to the same extent.
That was realised here and in France and elsewhere, and for some years efforts were made to prepare the ground for the signing of an international convention. When the Campbell-Bannerman Government was formed and I was appointed to the office now held by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd— that of Under-Secretary for the Home Office— I found that all preparations had been made for the first international conference of this character to be held. It was planned to be held in Berne in 1906. As a young Under-Secretary I had the honour of being appointed the head of the British delegation, most of the other delegations being composed only of officials of various departments. There were before that conference two proposals. One was a general international convention to regulate the night work of women in factories. Our own code was very good, as things went at that time, and it was effectively administered, but in many other countries there were no regulations at all or they were of an inadequate character. The second proposal related to a terrible disease

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which afflicted workers in the matchmaking industry. This disease was necrosis of the jaw, or, as it was popularly known, "phossy jaw." It was well established that this was due to the use of white phosphors, which was not essential to the making of matches but which for various reasons was more easily employed by manufacturers. It was decided that we should propose that that should be completely prohibited in all countries.
The conference met and we had friendly discussions, lasting for a few weeks; and we signed there and then a convention for regulating the night work of women. I have the great pleasure of thinking that my signature is attached to that primal document in this field. At the same time we drafted in all its details a convention for the abolition of the use of white phosphorus. That required fuller confirmation by Governments before it was actually signed, but that confirmation was given and the convention was signed, white phosphorus was prohibited, and the disease necrosis of the jaw completely disappeared. That is a sample from the beginning of the kind of work that has been done during all the intervening decades. We have been told by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, that more than 100 conventions have been signed and that these have received from the various nations more than 1,000 ratifications. That is the present situation, on which I cannot speak, for I have not been able to keep in touch with the work. I would only join with the noble Lord and other speakers in expressing the deep interest which I feel sure will be felt by the House as a whole in this great movement. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will give the all the support in their power, for I am sure that in doing so they will fulfil the desires of the whole House.
5.30 p.m.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has paid an eloquent tribute to the achievements of the International Labour Organisation, a tribute which has been echoed by every speaker in this debate, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. I should like to take this opportunity of saying how pleased we are 'to have heard him for the first time in this House and how much we hope we shall hear him often in the future. I do not think anybody who has
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made the least study of the work of the I.L.O. can possibly fail to endorse whole-heartedly what noble Lords have said. Various speakers have referred back to their memories of the early days of the I.L.O., and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has been able to go back even further and tell us some interesting stories of what happened before the I.L.O. was started. What struck me, looking at the I.L.O. and its history, was this. After the First World War there was a revulsion against the carnage and misery that had taken place, and a new determination to build a better world— a world not merely better for everybody to live in but one in which a second cataclysm, such as mankind had just experienced, would be impossible. As a result, as your Lordships will remember, a number of new international organisations were set up, of which the I.L.O. was one. It is a sad commentary on the fallibility of human institutions, and on the frailty of human endeavour, that these great ideals have been so imperfectly realised; that a Second World 'War was not avoided; and that— perhaps most important— of all these organisations that were set up in 1919, with such high purpose and in such great hope, the I.L.O. is, I believe, the only survivor.
In 1945 we once again saw the same hopes, the same ideals, the same optimism and the same varied crop of new international organisations. Since 1945, we have also experienced many of the same difficulties and setbacks which we experienced in the 'thirties. Certainly it has been my experience— and I dare say that it has been the experience of your Lordships also— that some people are beginning to wonder once again whether these new international organisations are likely to be more effective in building a better and a more peaceful world than a their predecessors, which failed so signally in the past. To those who are sceptical in this way I would point to the achievements of the over the last thirty years; they must, I suggest, be food for the most serious reflection. Admittedly, these achievements have taken place in a limited field, but the point is that within that limited fled the I.L.O. have had the same difficulties to contend with as any other international organisation; and perhaps the greatest difficulty of all has been that it has had to operate without any

719
sanction or power to compel of any kind whatsoever. That is the one thing which in all our experience, I believe, has been the great handicap of international organisations as a whole.
Reference has been made to the "tripartite" structure of the I.L.O. I believe that it has been said, quite rightly, that this makes it unique among official international organisations. It has been suggested— and I entirely agree— that this tripartite structure has been a great success. Although it is an organisation of States, it has representatives not only of Governments but also of employers and workers' organisations from those States. The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said that he had met several employers at these conferences, and that he had found them to be not bad chaps. Perhaps some of the employers thought that some of the workers were not bad chaps, too— and they may even have thought that some of the politicians were not bad chaps. That, I suggest, is a consolidating and strengthening factor, and it may well have had something to do with the success of this organisation. The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, suggested that an attack was being made on the industrial committees and the tripartite organisation. I was not quite clear where the attack was coming from, but if he says that there have been attacks, then I accept it. All I can say this evening is this— and I should like to emphasise it: that, so far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned, we are convinced of the importance of the tripartite structure, and also of the industrial committees. The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, mentioned the Asian Maritime Conference. That is one example of the useful work that the committees do. We should resist any effort to sabotage the industrial committees of the I.L.O., or any effort to impair the tripartite structure of the organisation.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said that there was an impression of unreality and ineffectiveness in the work of the Organisation. As with any international organisation, we must not expect quite so much from it as we should of a national organisation, because of the much greater difficulties with which it has to contend. Certainly it is difficult to measure statistically the work of the
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International Labour Organisation in the alleviation of human misery and the promotion of social progress. The noble Lord listed some of the conventions that have been signed, and of the recommendations made. All those, of course are an indication of its work, but it is not possible to measure it statistically, and it is easy to say that it might have done more. However, I should like to state here and now that, compared with any other international organisation I have known, during the thirty-five years of its existence the I.L.O. has had a most impressive record of sustained and concrete action designed to improve the lot of the working people of the world. I feel that any impartial student must come to the same conclusion.
Noble Lords opposite, and particularly the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, who I know has had a great deal to do with this Organisation, have much greater knowledge of the work of the I.L.O. than I have, and although there is much that could be said about the details of the work of the Organisation, I do not propose to waste your Lordships' time by discussing them this afternoon. Its work is well known, and I do not think it is necessary for me to go into it. I will merely reaffirm that, in the opinion of the Government, all that has been said about the value of the work of the I.L.O. is true. That is why successive British Governments have supported the Organisation, not merely for what it has done, or for what it is doing, but, more important, for what they hope it will do in the future.
Before I leave the actual work of the I.L.O. and its membership, may I deal with a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, about Russia and about the Colonial territories of the British Commonwealth. So far as the Soviet Union are concerned— as the noble Lord is probably aware— they can assume membership of the I.L.O. at any time they like, purely and simply by accepting the provisions of the Constitution. The situation at the present time is that they have said they would do so but, perhaps not entirely uncharacteristically, have immediately made several reservations. As there is no provision in the Constitution for making reservations, the situation is that either the reservations must be withdrawn or the Soviet Republic

721
cannot be a member. I can say no more than that. Nobody can force Russia to become a member of the I.L.O., and everybody else has managed somehow to accept membership without any reservations.
As far as the Colonial territories are concerned, there are already arrangements for consultation by the Government with the Governments of Colonial territories. These are undertaken through the Secretary of State for the Colonies and particulars of conventions, for example, are given to the Governments of those territories for their consideration. There is close touch between them and the Colonial Office. The noble Lord is probably aware that representatives of non-metropolitan countries are from time to time in the delegations sent to the I.L.O. conferences. I hope he will be satisfied that, so far as it is possible, the Colonies are brought into line with our general policy on the I.L.O.
The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, made the point— and I think it has been endorsed by others— that we all wish to see an extension of the ideals and standards which are preached by the I.L.O., for two reasons. One is obviously because we believe that their general acceptance by all nations would add much to the sum of human happiness and the raising of the standard of life. But perhaps there is a glimmer of self-interest in it as well, because those nations like ourselves who try to maintain these standards and ideals realise that, to a certain extent, they are undermined by the operations of those countries who do not and who are able, by accepting lower standards, to under-cut their rivals in the markets of the world. Like all generalisations, that is only partly true. I do not think anybody would suggest that even the operations of the I.L.O. would finally iron out the differences between ourselves and Japan. We cannot live on a bowlful of rice a day. The Japanese can, and are quite happy to do so. We need lots of warm clothes, particularly at the present time; the Japanese may not. There are climatic conditions which we cannot alter and which even the I.L.O. cannot alter. But there is a great deal in the raising of standards which can be done to avoid unfair competition and to raise the standard of living throughout the world.
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Obviously, that is something which we should all wish to see achieved, for both the reasons I have given.
The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, asked me various questions about Japan. He asked me some in your Lordships' House, this afternoon, and he gave me notice of a rather wider group of questions to which I have the information but which would take a long time to supply to your Lordships. Therefore, if he will forgive me, I will not give hire an account of the position in Japan in respect to the working conditions and living standards as a whole, but I will give him that information afterwards. I will deal with five questions about conditions in Japan which are more specific and which I can answer in a shorter space of time. The noble Lord asked me, first, what was the minimum age for children in industry. The Ordinance on Labour Standards for Women and Minors, passed on October 31, 1947, laid down the age of fifteen years as the minimum for employment in industry. In December, 1947, minors in employment under fifteen years of age numbered 9,266, but are stated to have been under the protection of the law inasmuch as their employment has been in light work, in spare hours after school, of a type which was not injurious to their health. The next question the noble Lord asked was: What are Me maximum hours for children in industry? Workers under eighteen years of age are conditioned to a working day of eight hours, a forty-eight hour working week, and one day's holiday per week. Night work and underground work are prohibited.
The third question the noble Lord asked was: What ire the maximum working hours for men and women? The Labour Standards Law, promulgated on April 7, 1947, established a working-day of eight hours a forty-eight hour week and one day's holiday per week for adult workers of both sexes. Women may not be employed on night-work or underground mining, or work on their normal rest-day. Overtime may be worked by agreement with the trade union and subject to the approval of the factory inspectorate. If the employer and the majority of his employees agree that overtime should be worked, a formal written notification to the factory inspectorate is sufficient.

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The fourth question put by the noble Lord was: Have the Japanese a factory inspectorate? That is answered by the last question— there is a factory inspectorate. Labour standards offices have been established in various parts of Japan, and inspectors and other necessary officials are installed. The labour standards inspector is authorised to inspect places of work, dormitories and other attached buildings, to examine records and documents, and to question employers and workpeople. The inspectorate in matters relating to the employment of women and minors is advised by the Director of the Women's and Minors' Bureau of the Ministry of Labour, under the supervision and direction of the Minister of Labour. During the period January-December, 1950, the inspectorate paid 338,000-odd inspection visits. I do not think the rest of these statistics are of particular interest, and I will give them to the noble Lord afterwards if he wishes to have them. The noble Lord will see that conditions in Japan have undoubtedly greatly improved since before the war. As he will remember, they left the I.L.O. in 1940 but rejoined in 1951. So much for the Japanese position, about which the noble Lord specifically inquired.
I understand his interest and that of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, to see an extension of the Organisation's work, and equally to see that, so far as possible, the standards which it prescribes are generally in force. On the other hand, however, I am bound to tell both noble Lords that I see considerable difficulties in the suggestions which they have made for achieving this object. They both suggested that the main difficulty, to start off with, was lack of finance. The noble Lord. Lord Henderson, said that curtailment would be disastrous; that the present resources were inadequate; and he deplored the fact that there was a system of priorities. I will say a word about the system of priorities in a moment.
LORD HENDERSON: I did not deplore the fact that there was a system of priorities. What I said was that there was a system of priorities which meant the exclusion of certain other projects which they should undertake.
LORD LLOYD: I beg the noble Lord's pardon; I did not wish to misrepresent him. First, let us consider what money
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the I.L.O. has at the present time. The budgets have risen from a total of just under 3,000,000 dollars in 1946 to 6,311,000 dollars in 1954, which is a fair increase. There was a fairly steady increase until 1952. Since then, there has not been much change, one way or the other. All I say to the noble Lord as a start is that, although it may not be all that could be desired, a budget of 6,311,000 dollars should provide the I.L.O. with fairly substantial financial resources which should enable it to maintain a high level of activity on its non-operational side, even if it does not permit it to undertake all the projects in which it might usefully engage.
The noble Lord talked about priorities. I am afraid that for all of us priorities are a necessity in life. For example, I could usefully employ a Rolls Royce, but at the moment that is a very low priority so far as I am concerned; I cannot afford it, and there are various other priorities which I feel have to come much higher, such as paying the rent, and so on. I think it must be accepted that in every organisation, however much we may desire something, there must be priorities. There must be distinction between what is necessary and essential and what is desirable and not so essential, and I do not think noble Lords can expect the I.L.O. to differ from any other organisation or any other individuals. Individuals and nations are in some ways alike. The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, suggested that there was some sort of conspiracy to curtail the advance of I.L.O. He said there was talk about the cutting down of finance— I was not clear in what direction, but perhaps I misunderstood the noble Lord.
LORD HENDERSON: Yes. I said that there were suggestions for cutting down the staff and the adminisration— not finance.
LORD LLOYD: If the noble Lord will give me further details I will see what I can find out about that matter. I was certainly not aware of it, and that is not at all what Her Majesty's Government have in view. I admit that many valuable and desirable objects could be undertaken immediately which at the moment have to be postponed or turned down, but I am not entirely convinced that the mere spending of money will achieve what we have in view. However much money you

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spend, there is still no sanction except a moral one to compel any recalcitrant nation to amend its ways; and, in any case, we must face up to the economic facts of the situation. We cannot get away from the fact that the Governments which contribute are in most instances faced with serious economic difficulties. Particularly nowadays, when it is a matter of spending more dollars, many of these nations, far from wishing to increase their overseas expenditure, are in most instances trying to find methods of reducing it. I think the noble Lord admitted that this difficulty did exist. He knows of it only too well.
We have to bear in mind that I.L.O. is not the only international organisation whose work these countries are trying to promote. Take our own case. We are spending at present, purely on international organisations, a very great amount of money. Included in this is a large number of dollars, but, if I may put the whole amount in sterling, it amounts to £3,589,000 a year. That is a considerable sum of money; and in the light of these figures I suggest that it would be difficult for this or any other Government to make any substantial increase at present in its total contributions to international organisations.
The noble Lord may feel— we all have our own particular and favourite project— that, of all the international organisations, I.L.O. is the one most worthy of support; and that perhaps more money should be diverted from other organisations and spent on I.L.O. That may or may not be so: I am not going to argue the point with him. The difficulty is that in nearly all cases we are committed to our contributions; and even if there were general agreement on such a point of view, the scope for switching money in this way would be small indeed. Even if we ourselves were prepared to find more money (and as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said, after the United States we are already the largest contributors) it is extremely doubtful whether other nations would be prepared to follow our lead. Therefore I say with regret that any substantial increase in the funds available is very unlikely to be possible at the present time— I cannot of course speak for the future. On the other hand, I will certainly give Lord Henderson this assurance: that although the Govern-
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ment obviously feel bound to scrutinise very carefully the annual budget proposals they will also endeavour not to take such action as would impair the progress of the Organisation's work; they will endeavour to provide adequate resources for the essential aims and purposes of I.L.O. I am not suggesting that they are going to give less even for some one particular project; I am saying simply, "No substantial extension" I say that because the noble Lord talked of inspection, and that is a very substantial extension. I do not think that, on any financial grounds, that would be possible.
I will deal now with this question of an international corps of labour inspectors. I expect the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, is aware that this is not the first time that such a proposition has been put forward. In 1946, when the Conference was considering a number of amendments to the I.L.O. Constitution, this matter was considered, and was rejected by the conference as being neither politically possible nor practically feasible. The difficulties to-day are no less great than they were in 1946. Very briefly I will try to tell the noble Lord what those difficulties are. First, it is a fact that Governments are very jealous of their sovereignty and we must accept the fact that few would be prepared, even in regard to ratified conventions, to agree to the presence on their soil of foreign inspectors, visiting Government offices, factories and other similar places, with the object of seeing that effect was being given to those conventions. I do not believe that most countries would accept such a situation. I am not saying whether it is right or wrong I am merely stating what I believe to be a fact.
The next thing is the actual and practical difficulties which exist, from a purely technical and practical point of view, in setting up such a corps. It would be prohibitively expensive. It is easy but fallacious to think in terms of an international inspectorate as a parallel to a national system. Our own experience shows that in any system of inspection the men concerned roust be possessed of specialist knowledge. There must be factory inspectors, wages inspectors and so on, all having specialised knowledge; one set of inspectors could not cover the whole field of labour problems. One

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could not, I think, expect one inspector to cover the whole range of labour relations. Moreover, one man could not cover one country; it would need dozens for each aspect of the labour relations in each country. In any case, the progress of ratification between countries is very uneven— so uneven that it would give rise to administrative problems of the greatest difficulty.
Then again, we are up against this vexed question of enforcement. How is it possible to make the activities of international inspectors effective? The I.L.O. Constitution provides no sanction against countries which default in their obligations in regard to ratified conventions. The only sanction is the moral pressure which comes through requiring Governments to submit annual reports on the application of conventions which they have ratified. I quite see Lord Lawson's point, and I wish to show him the true state of affairs. He said that some of these reports were more eloquent than factual. I do not know how far that goes, or haw much evidence he has, but I am prepared to accept that in some cases that may be so. The noble Lord also said that these reports were not regular. I will deal with that point while I am dealing with the reports in general.
I understand the situation is that Governments are not required to render reports on all conventions which they have not ratified. Certain conventions are selected each year for report. On conventions which Governments have ratified, they are required to render an annual report. I understand that there is a general improvement in the rendering of reports but that there is still room for further improvement, particularly as regards reports on unratified conventions but also on other conventions. On unratified conventions I understand there is no obligation to send in a report, unless they have been selected for that purpose. In any case, I accept that what the noble Lord says may be true, and I see the force of his argument that independent reports by international inspectors would guarantee that the truth would be clearly brought out. I think his point is that that would bring international moral pressure, and provide a firm basis on which to work.
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He might equally argue, and I think he did, that the activities of inspectors would provide a stimulus at a national level in the direction of full conformity with ratified conventions. I think there may well be something in the argument. On the other hand, I want to put it to the noble Lord whether he does not think that these purposes are almost equally well served by the provisions of the I.L.O. Constitution, under which Governments have an obligation to communicate to the organisations most representative of employers and workers in their countries copies of their reports on ratified conventions. That provision was not put in by accident. The object of that provision is that those organisations, whose interests are vitally affected by the whole work of the I.L.O., should be able to play their full part in ensuring that the obligations assumed by Governments in ratifying the conventions are, in fact, being fulfilled. The importance of the opportunity thus given has been stressed on a number of occasions by the International Labour Conference itself.
I wonder whether the noble Lord would not agree that that is still the answer to this problem, because I cannot believe that if anybody has flagrantly disregarded the terms of a convention which has been ratified, the employers' and workers' organisations would not have something to say about it at the conference. The main object is that it should be exposed and that the truth should come out. I am not at all sure whether that is not a sufficient safeguard. Because the Conference rejected an international corps of inspectors, I do not want to suggest for a moment that it rejected, or that anybody rejected, the importance of inspection at a national level. The conference itself adopted an important convention on labour inspection, and the widespread ratification of this convention which provides for the maintenance of labour inspection in industrial places of work ought, I think, to lead to a greater degree of practical conformity with the obligations of ratified conventions all round. We hope so. Surely, the right answer is: inspection on a national level, but reports to the workers' and employers' organisations on the international level. I believe that that would really meet the noble Lord's point

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I think I have answered most of the questions that I was asked. I realise that I have not satisfied the noble Lord, Lord Lawson— I did not expect to— but I hope that he will consider again the practical difficulties involved in the suggestions that he has put forward. I hope, finally, that he will not think that, merely because I cannot agree to these suggestions, that indicates any Luke-warmness or lack of enthusiasm on the part of Her Majesty's Government for the I.L.O., because I can assure him that nothing is further from the truth. We have always given it every support, and as long as the present Government are in power, at any rate— and I know that the Opposition would feel the same— the Organisation will always continue to receive that support.
6.6 p.m.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, it would be interesting to continue this debate, particularly after the noble Lord's answer, but I shall not take more than a few minutes. I have somewhat of a conscience about having raised this matter to-day, because it is not exactly in the Line of business of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd. However, he has got down to his job and has dealt thoroughly with the subject. I appreciate, too, the guarantee that he has given, that the tripartite nature of the I.L.O. will not be interfered with, and his assurances about the industrial committees and a good many other things for which my noble friend Lord Henderson asked. It is upon this matter of inspections that I am tempted to speak at more length than I shall. The I.L.O. is now a body of very great authority, and anyone who watches modern industry must know that, if there is any hope of controlling the destinies of mankind, it is by getting proper control of industry. There is the root of the whole business. The I.L.O. is building up, in no fewer than sixty-six countries, a big body of law deeply affecting almost every part of the
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world. How can it give any guarantee that that law is thoroughly carried out unless it has the expert people to investigate and give an assurance— namely, a body of inspectors?
I was pleased, for instance, to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, had to say about the appointment of inspectorates in Japan, and a good many more things. With the knowledge that the world has of Japanese conditions generally before the last war, will there be any guarantee that they are more than paper statements? I do not want to cry "stinking fish" to the Japanese Government: they may be making a really big effort to give effect to new conditions for the workers, and particularly for the children, but I confess that I shall be interested to see how that works out. But I should want some guarantee of skilled men, representative of the best opinion in the I.L.O. and representative of the best European countries. I am bound to say that, although I am pleased to hear the statement, I did not know they had inspectorates. I hope that they prove effective. I have nothing further to say, except to thank the House for its kindly consideration of this matter and, not least the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for the contribution lie made in his maiden speech.I should also like to thank one whom I think I may call my own friend— Lord Henderson— who has made a valuable contribution. I would also thank the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, for the answer that he has given. Whilst it has not satisfied me, I think the debate has certainly justified the Motion that was put down. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at ten minutes past six o'clock.