Sitting of 12 May 1953

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
WEST BRIDGFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL
Read the Third time, and passed.
BROMLEY CORPORATION BILL [Lords] (by Order)
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Anglo-Brazilian Trade
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to ensure the resumption of our export trade to Brazil, bearing in mind the recent United States commercial loan to Brazil.
    Sir H. Sutclifteasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the anxiety of many textile and other firms about the delay in reaching a settlement with regard to a new basis for Anglo-Brazilian trade; and when he anticipates that he will be in a position to announce some definite progress in this matter.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): I would refer my hon. Friends to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Walton (Mr. K. Thompson) on 30th April. The discussions in Rio de Janeiro will cover future trade between the two countries as well as the question of commercial arrears.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Can my right hon. Friend say when he expects these discussions to be concluded, and
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    will he take into account in the meantime that the United States and Germany are capturing a large proportion of the trade of Brazil, a friendly nation which wants to trade with Britain?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I cannot say when the discussions will be concluded. They are starting very shortly.
    Sir H. Sutcliffe: Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind the importance of having as one of our representatives a practical businessman who has had dealings with Brazil, as that may be vital to success?
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Could the President of the Board of Trade say whether the discussions will cover the possibility of making the same financial arrangements with the Brazilian Government as the ones which America and Germany have made so that the speed with which cruzeiros can be converted into sterling may be expedited?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: All possibilities will be borne in mind, but I hope that the House will not press me, before the discussions begin, to outline any proposals that might be made.
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the British motor industry is losing the Brazilian market for cars and lorries, which cannot now be shipped to that country, and that British vehicles already in Brazil cannot be kept on the road as spare parts are not available, and cannot be shipped owing to the shortage of sterling in that country; and if he will make arrangements with Brazil to alleviate this temporary shortage of sterling, as has been done by the United States of America and Germany in respect of their currencies.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am very much aware of the difficulties which face all exporters to Brazil, including exporters of cars and lorries. I regret that, although the Export Credits Guarantee Department are prepared to give cover for the export of spare parts, the Brazilian Government are not issuing the necessary import licences. On the general question of arrangements with Brazil, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I have just

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    given to him and to my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Sir H. Sutcliffe).
    Air Commodore Harvey: Pending the results of future negotiations, and in order to keep these vehicles serviceable, would it not be appropriate to offer barter trading by accepting bananas and other goods produced in Brazil for spare parts for these vehicles?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: On the question of barter trade, I would inform the House that the Brazilian free exchange law forbids the Bank of Brazil to issue licences in connection with barter deals, and so far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned I do not think that barter deals provide a way out of our basic difficulties.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is not the real answer to these three Questions to make the £ freely convertible?

    Argentine Agreement (Textiles)
    Mr. Fortasked the President of the Board of Trade what specific concessions the Argentine Government have made in the recently-concluded trade agreement which compensate for the omission of British textile exports from the agreement.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The trade agreement provides for substantial supplies of Argentine meat and for the licensing of various United Kingdom exports, including cotton and linen sewing thread and linen yarn. No quotas for other textiles are included, but for the last few years the Argentine Government have issued virtually no licences for the import of such textiles. The Argentine Government were not prepared to enter into any new agreements involving the import of other textiles, and we should have lost more than we gained by refusing to conclude an agreement on that account.
    Mr. Fort: Is my right hon. Friend, therefore, continuing the policy which was the policy of the previous Government with regard to this agreement with Argentine?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: It is true to say that there were no quotas for textiles in the agreement for the 12 months from April, 1951, to March, 1952, but the fact
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    is that, quotas or no quotas, the Argentine Government have not been issuing licences for the import of these goods.
    Mr. Edelman: Is it not a fact that British manufacturers, including those making engineering products as distinct from exporters of British raw materials, are not getting a fair showing under the Argentine trade agreement compared with the benefits enjoyed by the United States manufacturers, who have insisted on getting a fair share of manufactured goods included in their agreement, and is it not time for us to revise ours?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that the circumstances are somewhat different, but in any case this Question refers specifically to the export of textiles. If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask another Question about another export perhaps he would put it down.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Is it not a fact that the export of British textiles to the Argentine is lower today than at any time during the last six years?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: As I said, virtually no licences for the import of textiles have been granted during the period since 1951.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is my right hon. Friend saying that no licences have been granted to any exporters of textiles to the Argentine, or does that apply only to United Kingdom exporters?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Apart from those under an Italian agreement, about which my hon. Friend knows, I understand that the Argentine have issued virtually no licences for the import of textiles from any country.

    Nylon Stockings (Prices)
    Mrs. Mannasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what factors were considered before the decision was made to free nylon stockings from price control;
    (2) what steps he will take to prevent increased prices due to decontrol of nylon stockings in scarce supply.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Among the factors taken into account were that home supplies from our own manufacturers and from overseas were increasing and would increase further; that the consumer

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    should enjoy a greater range of choice than was possible under existing controlled prices, and that the manufacturers of the majority of nylon stockings made in this country had informed me of their intention not to increase the home market price of nylons previously sold at controlled prices. I see no reason to suppose that customers will not be able successfully to resist any attempt to raise prices unjustifiably, especially since supplies are steadily increasing.
    Mrs. Mann: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that these influences were prevalent when he gave the assurance to the House that he would retain price control, and why has he slipped in this respect now? Also, if it is true that the manufacturers can guarantee supplies at no higher prices, could the names of those manufacturers and the prices be placed in the Library?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I am confident that I can never have given any undertaking in such unequivocal terms as that I would not do away with price control. I do away with all price controls when I consider them to be unnecessary.

    Kirkby Industrial Estate (Factory Project)
    Mr. Keenanasked the President of the Board of Trade what stage has been reached in the negotiations for the Standard Motor Company to build a factory in Liverpool; and if he will make a full statement in regard to this matter.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have at present nothing to add to my reply of 27th March to a Question on this subject by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson).
    Mr. Keenan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is now understood in Liverpool that this firm will not now build a factory there, and that people are concerned because it was reported recently in the Press that the company were making an arrangement with the Hotchkiss Motor Company in France for their business to be extended there? If that is so, and the business will no longer be in Liverpool, and the proposed factory will probably be erected in France, will the right hon. Gentleman see that no
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    credit is advanced which will enable the factory to be taken from Liverpool to France?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: While appreciating the very proper anxiety and interest of the hon. Gentleman in this subject, I am in discussion with the Standard Motor Company on this matter. They have shown every willingness to help, and it would not be at all helpful if I discussed all their production plans while those discussions were going on.
    Mr. Keenan: But is the Minister not now aware that the Standard Motor Co. have no intention of going on with the factory project in Liverpool?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have not accepted in any way any of the implications in the Questions asked by the hon. Gentleman.

    War Damage Business Scheme
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the President of the Board of Trade how much interest will now be saved annually by his agreement to pay off the Business Scheme, Part II of the War Damage Act, 1943.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The amount of outstanding claims that are to be paid on 1st October next is about £25 million; and interest would have accrued at the rate of about £625,000 a year on these claims so long as they remained unpaid.
    Brigadier Clarke: Will my right hon. Friend not agree that the interest was rapidly catching up with the principal, that much money will be saved this country by paying the claims, and that that ought to have been done long ago?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Well, I express my satisfaction that it is now being paid.
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the President of the Board of Trade what saving of staff he anticipates being able to make by paying off the Business Scheme, Part II of the War Damage Act, 1943.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Twenty-four, Sir.
    Brigadier Clarke: Although the number is small, I am sure that my hon. Friends on this side of the House will agree that every small decrease in the number of civil servants is to be welcomed.

    Austin Motor Company Dispute (Export Loss)
    Mr. Edelmanasked the President of the Board of Trade the estimate of the export loss arising from the recent strike at the Austin Motor Company.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am unable to make any estimate.
    Mr. Edelman: Is it not the case that many tens of millions of pounds worth of exports may have been lost as a result of this strike? Is it not further the case that, whoever was the nominal victor in this strike, the country was the loser, and would the right hon. Gentleman bring this home to the intransigent men who were responsible for the prolongation of the strike and its conversion into a lockout?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not expect me to enter into the merits, on one side or the other, of that strike; it would be inappropriate if I did so. Obviously all stoppages of any kind whatsoever are to be deplored inasmuch as they affect our production and our exports.

    Film Production
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the need for long-term planning of film production and the expiry of the existing Eady levy in August, 1954, he will take special steps to prevent a fall in British film production, pending a decision on the future of the levy.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: As the hon. Member is aware, the Government have already decided that support for British film production of the kind provided by the British Film Production Fund should continue after August, 1954. So far as I am aware, film producers have found that decision a sufficient basis on which to continue their production plannings, and there is no sign of any fall in British film production.
    Mr. Swingler: But is not the Minister aware that his Parliamentary Secretary indicated last week that he does not contemplate a decision until the next Parliamentary Session, and as no one can safely predict what Parliament will eventually approve, is not this leaving the
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    industry in a state of uncertainty until the last moment when the Eady scheme expires?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that the hon. Gentleman is spreading wholly unnecessary gloom in the film industry. The statement I made gave every assurance that the basis of this fund would in principle go on and, on that assurance, the producers are continuing with production. I do not think that these continual attempts to spread uncertainty really help.
    Mr. Swingler: But does not the Minister realise that he cannot give that assurance? If it requires legislation, it is a question of what Parliament will approve, and as producers cannot be certain what the legislation will be when it has gone through Parliament, would it not be better to state a definite date when the right hon. Gentleman will introduce legislation, or when the voluntary negotiations must terminate?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The producers seem to be showing every confidence in the type of legislation that will go through Parliament. They do not seem to have any doubt about it, and they are satisfied that these assurances will enable them to go on producing.

    Foodstuffs (Personal Imports)
    Sir Edward Keelingasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has reconsidered the embargo on the bringing into this country by passengers from the Irish Republic of more than 7 1b. of food.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will relax some of the detailed restrictions on the amounts of foodstuffs which passengers and crews arriving in this country by sea and air may bring in their baggage without obtaining an import licence.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have decided, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food, to abolish the detailed restrictions on the amount of foodstuffs which may be imported as personal effects without an import licence by passengers arriving from all countries by sea and air, and to simplify them for crews arriving by sea and air. The only

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    provisos are now the following. Uncooked meats covered by the Diseases of Animals Act cannot be imported. The Customs officer at the port of arrival must be satisfied that the quantities of foodstuffs are reasonable, and in the case of crews do not exceed 25 1b. in all. He must also be satisfied that the goods are being imported for personal use and not as merchandise or for sale.
    Sir E. Keeling: Is my right hon. Friend aware that up to now travellers from every country in the world except Ireland have been allowed to bring in 50 1b. of food, and as it is obviously a good thing that travellers should bring into this country as much food as possible, will he allow me to congratulate him on this removal of the differentiation against travellers from Ireland, and on this further step to freedom?

    Sodium Compounds (Exports to China)
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the President of the Board of Trade what inquiries have been made by the United States Government concerning United Kingdom sodium exports to China in the last few months; and what reply was given.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No such inquiries have been made. The United States Government know that we prohibit the export to China of any goods which have a strategic significance. The exports of sodium compounds in January last, to which there has been a reference in the Press, amounted to some £290,000, and consisted almost entirely of caustic soda with a very small proportion of sodium nitrite. None of these exports has any strategic value.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that Senator McCarthy, in his investigating committee, is reported in the "Glasgow Herald" of 5th May as saying that the State Department had been asked to check and
    "the British have assured them that the sodium is of a type which has no great value in the war effort. However, there is no check beyond what the ships' captains themselves disclose about their cargoes."
    Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm or deny that allegation?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I do not think I am called upon to enter a debate with
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    Senator McCarthy. All I am concerned with are the facts of the case and the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is not the Minister denying the allegations by Senator McCarthy that representations were made by the State Department to the British representatives?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No inquiries were made.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Will the President of the Board of Trade in any event please convey to our friends in the United States the fact that if this country is to pay its way in the world it has to trade with somebody, and if we cannot trade with them they might reconsider the restrictions which they impose on our trading with other parts of the world?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: That question raises somewhat wider issues. On this particular issue I have been asked about the export of two commodities. They are non-strategic and there is nothing to prevent trade in non-strategic articles.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Industrial Co-partnership and Welfare Schemes
    Mr. Gowerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he will take to encourage firms and undertakings who introduce co-partnership, profit-sharing, welfare, and pension schemes for the benefit of their employees.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have considered this matter but I am not satisfied that there are sufficient grounds for giving further tax reliefs in this connection.
    Mr. Gower: Will the Chancellor agree that there are few better incentives than schemes of this kind, which produce for their beneficiaries physical rewards for effort and faithful service? Will he reconsider the matter?
    Mr. Butler: I have very carefully investigated the various types of concession or relief related to these various types of scheme and, if my hon. Friend wishes, I will endeavour to acquaint him with some of the complexities.

    Entertainments Duty (Cinemas)
    Mr. W. G. Bennettasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what it is estimated would be the cost to the Treasury in the present financial year of abolishing the tax on all cinema seats up to and including the 1s. seats.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The cost is conjectural, depending on the extent to which higher prices were reduced to take advantage of the exemption of the 1s. seat; but it would probably be in the region of £15 to £20 million in a full year and proportionately less in the present financial year, according to the date of operation.
    Mr. Bennett: Is the Minister aware that the estimate of the trade is that this figure would be around £3 million, and that that was the sum contributed more or less in respect of this particular class of cinema entertainment last year? If this sum was all that was involved will the Chancellor agree to reconsider the whole matter?
    Mr. Butler: The answer to the last part of the supplementary question is "No, Sir." The answer to the earlier part is that I can only give my own estimate, which is rather adjusted to take account of the probability that higher rates might be reduced to take advantage of the shilling exemption.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there does exist the feeling, which is not confined to one side of the House, that there is tax discrimination against the cinema trade? Will he not try to do something about that?
    Mr. Butler: I have been aware for some years, either from the other side of the House or from this, that there is always a point of view to be put from the cinema trade, and no doubt we shall hear more of it later in the summer.

    War Damage Claims
    Brigadier Clarkeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give an estimate of the total amount of money involved in settling all war damage claims other than Part II of the War Damage Act, 1943.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret that this information is not available.
    Brigadier Clarke: Will my right hon. Friend give consideration to closing down the War Damage Commission at the earliest possible date, as that would save the country a lot of money?
    Mr. R. J. Taylor: If he considers this question at all, will the Chancellor take into consideration that other class of people who want their post-war credits?
    Mr. Butler: There are a number of Questions about post-war credits to be answered later on. Meanwhile, in answer to my hon. and gallant Friend, I would point out that the War Damage Commission are still paying about 1,500 claims a week and the average weekly cost is about £700,000, so it would seem rather a pity to close them down.

    Bank Deposits (Notifications)
    Mr. Glenvil Hallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what notifications have been received to the last convenient date under Section 27 of the Finance Act, 1951, distinguishing those received in respect of Post Office Savings Bank accounts and those from the joint stock banks and others; and how many of them disclose under assessments to tax.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Up to 31st March, 1953, about 1,200,000 notifications have been received. Of this number about 600,000 have been received from the Post Office Savings Bank. Most of the notifications have now been examined, and under-assessment has been discovered or is suspected in about one-quarter of the cases. Of these, about 150,000 have been settled.
    Mr. Hall: I wonder if the Chancellor would agree that the legislation passed in 1951 by the Labour Government was well worth while?
    Mr. Butler: I should like to reserve my opinion upon that, but if that was the case I should say it was a remarkable exception.
    Mr. Marlowe: Is it not the case that these Post Office Savings accounts are stated on the book to be confidential and secret, and that the legislation of the last Government broke that understanding and exposed them to the tax gatherer?

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make available for the convenience of Members the Eighth Schedule to the Finance Act, 1948, as subsequently amended by subsequent Finance Acts and Treasury Orders, thereby showing the effective rate of Purchase Tax application to articles at the various times.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Printed notices, issued from time to time by the Board of Customs and Excise, giving full information on this subject are maintained in the Library. If the hon. Member wants anything further in this respect, perhaps he will communicate with me.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the Chancellor bear in mind that it would be very convenient if, before the passing of the Finance Bill, some copies were made available in the Vote Office, as there is only one copy in the Library?
    Mr. Butler: I will see what I can do to make the situation a little easier.

    Capital Issues Committee
    Mr. Goughasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that the Capital Issues Committee has now outlived its usefulness, if he will take steps to wind it up.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir. And I cannot accept the implication of the Question.
    Mr. Gough: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the continuance of this Committee forms a considerable brake on new and progressive undertakings? In view of the difference in the value of money, particularly after five years of Socialist rule, would he agree to increase the limit from £50,000 to £100,000?
    Mr. Butler: The latter point would need to be put on the Order Paper. In regard to the first point, I really do not think that this Committee have held up development or issues of money where it is necessary. I am going by the statistics of what they have accepted and rejected. If they were a holding-up body and were unreasonable, I might revise my opinion, but I do not think that they are.
    Mr. Dalton: May we take it that the Chancellor is entirely satisfied with the
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    work of the excellent body of men who form this Committee?
    Mr. Butler: I think that my original answer must have indicated that. They are men of the highest quality and greatest possible knowledge of these matters, and I have the greatest confidence in their activities.

    Post-War Credits
    Dr. Kingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the repayment of their post-war credits to disabled ex-Service men between the ages of 60 and 65 years.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret that I cannot accept this suggestion.
    Dr. King: As the Chancellor will probably remember that in a previous answer he said he is constantly anxious about the question of post-war credits, would he agree that it would be a good thing if we could pay first people like those mentioned in the Question, who really need the money, before we pay those who do not need it? Could not the Treasury, who show themselves on many occasions to be exceedingly ingenious, do something about cases like this?
    Mr. Butler: There is a very real difficulty in picking out those particular, although very deserving, cases in this very broad and difficult problem.
    Mr. Gowerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now take steps to ensure that the date of repayment of post-war credits shall not be postponed solely by reason of the death of the holder.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir. I regret that I cannot go any further in releasing post-war credits at present.
    Mr. Gower: Does the Minister agree that unless something is done to alter the present system some people may not be paid until A.D. 2,000 or A.D. 3,000, or indeed at all? Does he not think that this position is completely absurd, and would he not agree that Conservative and Labour leaders are equally to blame?
    Mr. Butler: This was not a system devised by myself. If the incidence of death were to fall slightly before the age of 60 or 65 the postponement of payment might in some cases be deferred to about

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    the dates to which my hon. Friend has referred. I am fully aware of the whole problem, but I am unable to go further at present.
    Mr. Shurmer: Could not the Chancellor consider paying post-war credits to the dependants of men or women on the date when they would have become 65 or 60 if they had lived? That is really a good suggestion.
    Mr. Butler: It so happens that the hon. Member's suggestion is about the best of many that I have received.
    Mr. Shurmer: Then why not put it into operation?

    Morgan (H.M. Inspector of Taxes) v. Tate and Lyle Ltd. (Costs)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what costs to public funds have been incurred to date on the litigation between the Inland Revenue and Messrs. Tate and Lyle Limited.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The company's bills of costs have not yet been received. The Revenue costs are estimated as about £580.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: To be sure that public funds are not wasted on the costs of the Crown and costs of the company, will the Chancellor say whether he has decided to embark on further litigation in the hope of further success—in which case we wish him well—or has he decided to introduce legislation which would be cheaper and less uncertain in its effects?
    Mr. Butler: Leave to appeal to the House of Lords has been given, and I can say no more at this stage.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is advantage to be taken of the leave to appeal?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think we can discuss this matter further.

    Officers' Pensions and Retired Pay
    Mr. Marloweasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the sum of money he is prepared to issue to the Service Departments for the purpose of increasing the pensions and retired pay of the officers of the Regular Forces.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir. My hon. and learned Friend should address any general Question about Forces' pensions and retired pay to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence.
    Mr. Marlowe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have been addressing questions to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence on this matter for some time, that I have got no satisfaction whatever, and that he always replies that he is entirely dependent upon what the Treasury will give him? I have, therefore, devised this Question for the Treasury. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I do not like this passing the buck? Will he pay attention to the fact that there is on the Order Paper an all-party Motion bearing the names of 210 Members of this House? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that unless the Government give early consideration to it there will be trouble from all quarters of the House?
    Mr. Butler: If the hon. and learned Member occupied my position he would know that I am always in trouble, and that I very frequently have remarks made to me like that which the hon. and learned Member has made, but it does not deflect me from the answer that I have already given.

    Subsidiary Companies, Canada (E.P.L.)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will seek to make an arrangement with the Canadian Government for the purposes of making subsidiaries of British companies operating in Canada pay Excess Profits Levy on profits made in Canada.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I do not see my way to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion, which would involve an amendment of the Excess Profits Levy law affecting overseas companies.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Chancellor aware that he is losing a lot of money by not adopting my suggestion? Is he aware that Mr. Sopwith, the Chairman of the Hawker-Siddeley Aircraft Company, stated at the company's annual meeting that the company was paying only £25,000 Excess Profits Levy, and that one of the reasons was that much of their profits was made in Canada and was not

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    taxed? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it worth while looking into that matter?
    Mr. Butler: This Levy is eventually to come to an end. It is not proposed by the Government to make amendments beyond the pledges given in last year's debates, and that governs my answer to this Question.

    Income Tax (Repairs Allowance)
    Sir J. Crowderasked the Chancellor if he will consider increasing the statutory repairs allowance in Schedule A assessments to meet the increased cost of repairs.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I think this is a matter on which I should await the report of the Royal Commission on the Income Tax which is considering, among other tax matters, the law relating to Schedule A.
    Sir J. Crowder: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that although it is possible for householders to get increased allowances by producing bills and detailed accounts of their repairs, it is very expensive for them to do this and they often have to employ accountants to do it? Would he consider increasing the repairs allowance at least for the smaller assessed properties?
    Mr. Butler: I am well aware of the difficulty, about which I have extensive notes here with me, but I would rather await the decision of the Royal Commission on this matter, as this is one of the matters which has been referred to it.

    Purchase Tax Committee (Report)
    Sir E. Boyleasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can yet say when the Report of the Purchase Tax (Valuation) Committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. Frederick Grant, Q.C., will be published.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The Report is published today, and copies are available in the Vote Office.
    Sir E. Boyle: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he is yet in a position to make any statement, or whether the Government accept the recommendations in the Report?
    Mr. Butler: I am at present considering this Report, which is not unanimous. The subject, as the House knows, is a complicated one and the views of traders may well differ. I shall, therefore, be ready to consider any representations that those concerned may wish to make to me in the near future.
    Mr. Jay: So far as this Report may recommend changes in the law, will the Chancellor not exclude the possibility of including them in the later stages of the Finance Bill?
    Mr. Butler: The whole question of this Report came before me at the time when I had to decide to publish it, and when I could not take any action on any draft of the Finance Bill. The question of future legislation must be left for the moment, but I have noted what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

    Government Establishments (Paid Sick Leave)
    Sir G. Lloydasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to what extent, to assist in the closer watch that is now being kept on the operation of the paid sick leave scheme in Government establishments, central records are now being kept, so that the total annual cost to the taxpayer can be calculated.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): None, Sir. The administrative and clerical cost to the taxpayer could not be justified. But the management of each industrial establishment is aware of the need to watch, in the light of local circumstances, the incidence of sick absence in that establishment.

    Civil Service Medical Officers
    Dr. Broughtonasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in which medical journals he now advertises the vacancies for appointment of registered medical practitioners in the Civil Service.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: None, Sir. Since no recruitment is taking place, vacancies are not at present being advertised at all.
    Dr. Broughton: Can the hon. Gentleman state in terms which are more easy to understand why there have been no advertisements of civil servant medical officer posts in the medical journals recently? Is it possible that the Financial Secretary is in disgrace with the medical

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    profession, and that the British Medical Association has imposed a ban upon the publication of advertisements of this sort? If that is so, would he inform the House what the trouble is about?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Those issues, particularly the one relating to myself, are of an intriguing character, but they are wholly different from the point raised in the Question. The hon. Gentleman asked in which medical journals vacancies are advertised and the answer that I have already given him is "None."

    MEMBERS (GOVERNMENT PAPERS)
    Dr. Kingasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will amend current practice so that hon. Members requiring, for their Parliamentary duties, Government Papers printed before the present Session may obtain them free of charge.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The present practice has worked to the general satisfaction of hon. Members since 1924. I am not aware of any changed circumstance or of any such feeling among hon. Members as to justify the change suggested by the hon. Member. But my right hon. Friend is always ready to consider any views which hon. Members may hold.
    Dr. King: While nobody would wish to secure for hon. Members the right to obtain all Government publications free, would the Minister not agree that if a Member needs a Government publication for work that he is doing in the House, he should be able to obtain it free, provided he satisfies some Department that he does so need it?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I think there must be some limit, and the present limits which were announced by the late Mr. William Graham from this Box in 1924 have, I think, worked pretty satisfactorily since them. If the hon. Gentleman has any aspect of the matter that he would like to raise, over and above that to which he has already drawn my attention in his letter, I will very gladly look into it.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Private Street Works
    Mr. Storeyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is now able to relax the restrictions upon private street works imposed in 1951 and 1952; and whether he will consider the procedure laid down by his Department for obtaining sanction for private street work expenditure, with a view to simplifying it and giving more discretion to local authorities.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): What can be allowed is conditioned by the resources available for this class of work. Subject to this, I am anxious to see the procedure made as simple as possible.

    Drainage and Sewerage Scheme, Reepham
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how soon it is anticipated that approval will be given for the drainage and sewerage scheme for the Reepham area in the county of Norfolk.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am sorry I cannot give a definite date yet. In any case, the most urgent need seems to be for a scheme for piped water supply. Tests are going on now.
    Brigadier Medlicott: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the provision of the drainage scheme is now considerably overdue, and that this amenity would be of great help to the general housing plans for this district?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am well aware of that, but we must get a sufficient supply of water first before the drainage scheme is introduced.
    Mr. Stokes: What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do when he gets the piped water but has not got any drainage?

    New Towns (Accounts)
    Mr. Remnantasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will arrange to have the annual accounts of each new town available, separately, for sale to the public.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am examining the possibility of doing this in respect of the reports and accounts for the year just ended.
    Mr. Remnant: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would add to the interest taken in the accounts of new towns if the inhabitants did not have to pay 9s. for a booklet of which no more than 10 per cent. is of any interest to them?
    Mr. Macmillan: I have never been responsible for the publishing operations of Her Majesty's Stationery Office, and I am not jealous of them.

    Footpaths (Signposting)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many county councils have taken steps to ensure effective signposting of public footpaths.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I regret that I have not the information necessary to answer the hon. Member's Question.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the Minister appreciate that the system of signposting of footpaths before the war, particularly in Essex and near counties, was a great advantage to numbers of people who sought the countryside? Can he do something to expedite the vision of the counties which are taking action in this way?
    Mr. Macmillan: I can only do it by exhortation. I have no power to require or control the erection of these signs.
    Mr. Sorensen: Was there no record of any kind regarding these footpaths?
    Mr. Macmillan: Since I have no legal power to require them, I have no legal power to require any information on the subject.

  HOUSING

    Building Progress
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what instructions he has issued to his regional officers since 1st January, 1953 regarding future housing allocations for local authorities.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: There are no longer yearly housing allocations for local authorities. In view of the tremendous impetus of the housing drive, I have instructed my regional officers to take
    1048
    the necessary steps to see that the rate of building is not prejudiced by an excessive expansion of the programme having regard to the labour and materials available. I estimate that we are now running at practically full speed with our present resources.
    Mr. Donnelly: In those instructions which the right hon. Gentleman has given are there any instructions of any kind which would reduce the local authority's own housing allocations for local authority building as opposed to the building of private enterprise houses?
    Mr. Macmillan: I have already explained that the allocation system is obsolete. We are trying to get a properly phased and timed programme. Last year we built 33,000 more houses to let than the year before. We have at the moment 247,000 houses to let under construction, which is 40,000 more than this time last year and 64,000 more than this time two years ago, so I think I have carried out my pledges.
    Mr. Braine: Is it not a fact that the manufacturers of building materials are giving splendid support to the building programme? Can my right hon. Friend say by how much cement production has risen in this country since 1950?
    Mr. Macmillan: It goes on rising all the time but broadly speaking I think it rose about 10 per cent. last year and I should think that from three years ago it has risen by about 20 per cent.
    Mr. Porter: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that he is in a false position when he claims credit for the number of houses under construction, and at the same time he is telling people that the lack of homes is because building materials are not available?
    Mr. Macmillan: Those are very good reasons why the programme should be brought to maximum productivity. It is as bad to overload it as it is to underload it.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will my right hon. Friend do all he can to secure the maximum production of building materials?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir.

    Sites
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) how many local authorities have notified him of a shortage of housing sites; in how many cases this is caused, wholly or partly, by mining subsidence; and what steps he is taking to assist in the provision of sites for the future in these areas;
    (2) how many local authorities have applied for permission to acquire agricultural land for housing purposes since 1st January, 1953; what has been the decision in each case; and what is the average duration of inquiries before a decision is taken.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: The normal arrangement is that the selection of housing sites is carried out by the local authorities concerned, who undertake any necessary consultations with the Ministry of Agriculture and consider the risk of subsidence where this arises. It is usually unnecessary for me to intervene unless some special difficulty arises. The hon. Member will appreciate, therefore, that the information for which he asks is not available in my Department.
    Mr. Swingler: Does that mean that only one local authority has notified the Minister of a shortage of housing sites —I know there is one—on account of the land being sterilised owing to mining subsidence? If that is so, would the right hon. Gentleman give very special attention to the needs of that local authority, because of the danger of its housebuilding programme breaking down?
    Mr. Macmillan: I do not think there is any risk of the programme breaking down. If there were I should, of course, give special attention to it.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister aware that I am referring to the Newcastle-under-Lyme authority, who have notified him that there is danger of the housebuilding programme breaking down in 1954, because there are no housing sites left in the borough owing to the sterilisation of land by mining subsidence? Does the answer of the right hon. Gentleman mean that this is the only local authority which has notified him of a shortage of housing sites for this reason?
    Mr. Macmillan: No. The answer states that I would have given the hon.
    1050
    Member the information if I had the precise information for which he asks. He will remember he has asked one or two Questions on the special position of New-castle-under-Lyme. That matter is receiving our attention and I hope to reach some settlement of it. But both the House and the hon. Member will recognise that this balance between the claims of housing sites and agricultural land is one of the main problems which we have been trying to overcome, either by new towns or town development or all kinds of things. It is not an easy problem to solve, and I try to keep the balance as fairly as I can, having regard to the general national interest.

    Repairs Notices (Enforcement)
    Mr. Isaacsasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what power his regulations give a local authority that has served notice on an owner of property to carry out repairs necessary to be done to bring houses under his control into a sanitary condition and made fit for human habitation, to ensure that, in the interest of public health, the necessary work is executed in compliance with the legal notice; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Local authorities have power to require repairs under Section 9 of the Housing Act, 1936, and under Section 93 of the Public Health Act, 1936, both of which authorise them, if necessary, to carry out the work themselves and to recover the cost from the owner or the person responsible.
    Mr. Isaacs: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how this will apply in the case of an owner of property in many parts of London who may shortly become a guest in one of Her Majesty's institutions? What can the council do if this man is not in a position to give orders about repairs by which hundreds of houses could be put into good repair?
    Mr. Macmillan: They have other powers to deal with that question. They can take over property in certain cases. I have tried to give an answer on the particular point raised by the right hon. Gentleman, but there are other powers which may be used in other circumstances.

    Post-War Houses (Sale)
    Mr. Remnantasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will consider giving permission to owners of post-war privately-built houses to sell at the district valuer's valuation based on current prices, where the owner-occupier has to move for the purpose of his employment.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am considering this question, but am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Remnant: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that, despite the increase in building which is lessening the gap, it is a hardship for a man who has to move to have to pay the vacant possession price in the area to which he is going and receive the limited price in the area which he is leaving?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir, I am considering that.

    Flooded-out Families
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps have been taken to rehouse, at Basildon and elsewhere, families driven out of their homes by the floods and unable to return, either because the property is totally destroyed or rendered uninhabitable or for some other reason.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Families unable to find accommodation themselves have been helped by the housing authorities of both the flooded and other districts. In letting council houses, Canvey Island Urban District Council are giving these families first preference. Southampton Town Council, Hatfield Rural District Council, and Basildon New Town Corporation, among others, have also let houses to these families.
    Mr. Braine: While my constituents are grateful to those local authorities who came to their assistance, nevertheless there still remains a "rump" of families for whom no accommodation has been found. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend can pursue the matter, particularly with regard to my corporation?
    Mr. Macmillan: If my hon. Friend will tell me of individual cases, I will see what I can do.

    SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister what steps he proposes to take, in view of the fact that the Solicitor-General for Scotland is not a Member of the House of Commons, to ensure that Her Majesty's Government and the House are adequately advised on legal matters affecting Scotland.
    The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): The advice of both the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General is, of course, fully available to Her Majesty's Government; and the Lord Advocate is a Member of this House.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can the Prime Minister tell us who is the Solicitor-General for Scotland?
    The Prime Minister: I am proceeding upon very solid precedents, and I may perhaps be permitted to give to the House some of the precedents on which I have relied in this matter. In 1924, from February to November, Mr. Fenton; in 1929, May to June, Mr. Normand; 1929–31, Mr. Watson; 1936–37, Mr. Reid; 1941-43, Sir David Murray; 1945–47, Mr. D. P. Blades; 1947—this is where you come in—March to October, Mr. Wheatley; 1947–48, Mr. D. H. Johnston. All these are precedents for a Solicitor-General—[Hon. Members: "Who is he now?"]—not sitting in the House of Commons. I think that should satisfy everyone.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that he has given the full team except the one we are interested in? Is he aware that in the Scottish Grand Committee last week we had no legal adviser, and that the Government were defeated on an Amendment moved by the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot)? Is it not time he did something about this appointment?
    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Member supposes that I do not know the name of the Scottish Solicitor-General, it is Mr. Milligan.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Solicitor-General for Scotland was in the Scottish Grand Committee this morning, and that

    1053
    the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) was also there, saw him and, therefore, knows his name without assistance?
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Is it possible that the Prime Minister cannot find a winable Tory seat in Scotland for the Solicitor-General?
    The Prime Minister: We have not done so badly in Scotland. At the 1945 General Election they held their own.
    Mr. Gower: Is the Prime Minister aware that the hon. Member who asked this Question comes from a country where few are solicitors but all are lawyers?

  ORONATION

    Scottish Youth Organisations (Facilities)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Works the number of places for the Coronation which will be reserved for and allotted to the Scottish Standing Conference of National Voluntary Youth Organisations; where these places will be situated; and what arrangements are being made for the convenience and comfort of those who will occupy them.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. David Eccles): The Scottish Standing Conference will have places on a pavement in Parliament Square. Drinking water, lavatory and first-aid facilities will be available.
    I do not think it would be in the general interest to publish the number of seats or reserved standing places which have been offered to any organisation.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Can the Minister say on what principle these seats are allotted? Is it on a geographical basis? If so, how many are being allotted to North-East Scotland, where can the tickets be obtained, and how?
    Mr. Eccles: The sub-allocation of the seats is done by the Standing Conference, and I have every confidence that they have done their work well as between one part of Scotland and another.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Why cannot the public be given an opportunity of making their arrangements and knowing where
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    they can get the seats and when they will get them?
    Mr. Eccles: I think the Standing Conference have done their work fairly rapidly. As a matter of fact, I happen to know that they were more than satisfied with the number of seats offered. The details are kept secret because if we published the numbers going to all the different organisations we should dissatisfy more people than we satisfied.

    Stands (Contract Conditions)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Minister of Works the conditions of the contracts for erecting the Coronation stands with regard to the purchase price to be paid for the acquisition of timber and the selling price for its disposal.
    Mr. Eccles: The contracts are on the basis of lump sum prices for the provision, erection and dismantling of the stands after taking into account the value of the materials recovered by the contractors on demolition. No provision is made as to the prices at which the timber shall be acquired or sold.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the Minister quite satisfied that he has taken full account of the prices which will be obtained by contractors on demolition?
    Mr. Eccles: I think so. Of course, it is a fact that timber is cheaper now than it was when the contractors bought it for the stands, but this method, which really amounts to hiring the timber and the steel, shows, I think, the best results.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Brick and Cement Supplies
    Mr. Shurmerasked the Minister of Works if he is aware that there is a shortage of bricks and cement in Brmingham and district which, if allowed to continue, will mean a slowing down in the rate of house, school and factory building; and if he will take action at once to remedy this situation.
    Mr. Eccles: I am aware that there are shortages of bricks and cement in Birmingham and district but supplies, already at a higher rate than in 1952, are increasing. Provided due economy is exercised in the use of these materials, I do not expect the rate of building to be seriously affected.
    Mr. Shurmer: Is the Minister aware that some firms are quoting as long a period as eight months for the delivery of bricks? Is he aware that one contractor has not had a delivery of cement since February and that he is having to move cement from site to site? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this morning I had news that unskilled and some skilled workers are out of work in the building trade in Birmingham because of lack of materials? Is that the way to go on with building?
    Mr. Eccles: I think the hon. Member can congratulate his constituents, because the deliveries of cement in the first 17 weeks of this year were 17 per cent. above those of the corresponding period last year, which is a very remarkable achievement. I should say the comparative figure for bricks was about 9 per cent. The fact is that these are the growing pains of a successful building programme. We have also been blessed with remarkably dry weather.
    Mr. Crouchasked the Minister of Works how many bricks have been manufactured during the last three months for which figures are available; and what was the corresponding output for 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952.
    Mr. Eccles: The output of bricks during the months of January, February and March, 1953, compared with the output for the corresponding months of the previous four years, was as follows:

    Million

    1949

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,188

    1950

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,428

    1951

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,414

    1952

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,598

    1953

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,716

    Mr. Crouch: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these figures will be very much welcomed in the country, and will help towards answering the charge that there is a shortage of bricks? Of course there is a shortage of bricks when we are building two houses for every one built under the previous Administration.
    Mr. Crouchasked the Minister of Works what quantity of cement has been manufactured during the last three months for which figures are available; and what was the corresponding output for 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952.
    Mr. Eccles: The output of Portland cement during the months of January, February and March, 1953, compared with the output for the corresponding months of the previous four years was as follows:

    million tons

    1949

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2.06

    1950

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2.17

    1951

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2.33

    1952

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2.53

    1953

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2.55

    The output this year would have been higher but for the floods.
    Mr. Crouch: Will my right hon. Friend continue this good work, and do everything he can to increase the output?
    Mr. Eccles: I thank my hon. Friend but the Ministry of Works neither produces nor distributes building materials.

    Manton Down Barrow (Damage)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Minister of Works why the famous long barrow at Manton Down, near Marlborough, Wiltshire, dating from about 2,000 B.C. and scheduled as an ancient monument, has been destroyed.
    Mr. Eccles: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) on 5th May. The barrow was damaged in the course of agricultural operations last summer.
    Mr. Fletcher: Can the Minister say when he will be able to make a further statement about what steps are being taken?
    Mr. Eccles: Quite shortly, I think, but under the Ancient Monuments Act I cannot prosecute after six months have gone by, and the damage was done more than six months ago.
    Mr. Stokes: Is the Minister aware that the owner is reputed to have said that he was unaware that it was an ancient monument? Is that really the case?
    Mr.Eccles: He should not have been unaware, because it was listed. Once an ancient monument is listed it is registered as a local land charge. It may be that we should try to put up more notices where there are ancient monuments.
    Mr. Nicholson: Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity of congratulating the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) on being the only man alive who can date a neolithic monument with such precision? Will he also tell the House what steps are being taken to see that such earth works are kept under constant or occasional supervision to ensure that they are not destroyed?
    Mr. Eccles: In defence of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher), it should be said that he got the date from the Ministry of Works: it is a very round figure. We must look into the whole question of how to protect these out-of-the-way monuments.
    Brigadier Medlicott: Is it not a fact that the mere existence of a land charge would not be likely to come to the notice of owners? Could not some more direct means of notifying them be devised?
    Mr. Eccles: The difficulty is that there are some 7,000 ancient monuments of this kind. To put boards up everywhere and to keep them in good order would require a lot of money and a lot of staff.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Is there any risk of these notice boards being put on the House of Lords?

    DISABLED UNEMPLOYED, GATESHEAD
    Mr. J. T. Hallasked the Minister of Labour the number of registered disabled unemployed in the county borough of Gateshead; the number employed at the Remploy factory at the latest convenient date; and the corresponding figures of a year ago.
    The Minister of Labour (Sir Walter Monckton): The number of registered disabled persons in Gateshead who were unemployed at 16th March, 1953, was 273 compared with a total of 307 at 17th March, 1952. The numbers employed at the Remploy factory at these dates were 45 and 49 respectively.
    Mr. Hall: Is the Minister satisfied that he has taken all the steps he can take to find work for these men, and can I have an assurance that he is not trying to cut down the service of the Remploy factories.
    Sir W. Monckton: So far as this Gates-head Remploy factory is concerned, the difficulty has been that it does orthopaedic work, and there has been a shortage of that work. We are negotiating for additional contracts, and if we get them, as I hope we shall, we shall be able to find more work for these men.
    Mr. Slater: May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman what steps he is taking to extend the service so that these people who cannot be absorbed at present may be absorbed in other directions in some form of employment?
    Sir W. Monckton: These men about whom this Question was asked are disabled men who require sheltered employment, and they are the men for whom Remploy exists. I was saying that, in this particular area, I have hopes of more men being taken on.

    VALUATION AND RATING, SCOTLAND (COMMITTEE)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
    Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchison: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, whether he is aware of the difficulties to which the system of rating and valuation in Scotland is giving rise; and what action he proposes to take.
    At the end of Questions—
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. James Stuart): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will answer Question No. 59.
    Yes, Sir. I have decided to appoint a Committee with the following terms of reference:
    "To review the present system of valuation and rating (other than the derating of agricultural, industrial and freight transport, lands and heritages) in Scotland; to consider whether any and, if so, what changes should be made in the system, and what other action would in consequence of any such changes be required: and to report."
    I am glad to say that Lord Sorn has agreed to serve as Chairman of the Committee and that the other members will be:
    Mr. J. G. Banks, Mr. J. T. Byrne, Lord Greenhill, Sir Hugh Mackenzie, Mr. Duncan McNiven and Sir Ronald Thomson.
    Lieut-Commander Hutchison: In thanking my right hon. Friend for that answer, may I ask him if, in view of the urgency and importance of this question, he will request the Committee to start work at the earliest possible moment?
    Mr. Stuart: Yes, Sir. I will ask them to do their best.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Scotland will hear this announcement with great interest, but with a real doubt as to whether this partial approach to the global problem of the local authorities will be sufficient to satisfy their aspirations and needs? Is he further aware that there will be a certain amount of disappointment—I think keen disappointment in some directions—that the right hon. Gentleman has excluded the derating of agriculture and industry, since it is difficult to see how any solution of the problem in the Highlands and the rural areas can be arrived at without that matter being brought in? I do not think it would be possible to get a reply today, but I should inform the right hon. Gentleman that we propose to discuss, through the usual channels, the question of having a day, or some time, for a debate on this problem. I think the right hon. Gentleman will be aware that there are many hon. Members who would like to put points for consideration before the terms of reference of the Committee are finally settled and before the Committee itself is appointed.
    Mr. Stuart: The terms are very wide. The question of the derating of agriculture and industry, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, would necessitate legislation, and is a matter of
    1060
    Government policy, and not, therefore, a matter which it was thought appropriate to refer to this inquiry.
    Lieut-Colonel Elliot: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on the wide scope of the members of the Committee whose services he has been able to secure, may I stress the importance of the Committee getting to work as soon as possible, and, above all, of not carrying into its terms of reference the consideration of the increased rating of agricultural or industrial hereditaments in the Highlands, both of which need much more encouragement rather than the discouragement of new and heavy local taxation being placed upon them?
    Mr. T. Fraser: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if this Committee is to bring forward any recommendations that will be of the slightest use to local authorities in Scotland, legislation will most definitely be necessary, and, in the circumstances, will he reconsider the proposal to exclude consideration of the derating of agricultural land and industrial concerns?
    Mr. Stuart: The point is that this derating is an act of Government policy, and it was not thought appropriate to bring it to the attention of this Committee. It is a matter for Parliament to decide whether derating should be continued or discontinued.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [14th Allotted Day]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir Charles MacAndrew in the Chair]
  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1953–54
  CLASS II
  VOTE 1. FOREIGN SERVICE
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a sum, not exceeding £8,488,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, including Her Majesty's Missions and Consulates abroad, and the salary of a Minister of State.—[£4,250,000 has been voted on account.]
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again"— [Mr. Buchan-Hepbum]—put, and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.]
  3.36 p.m.
  Mr. C. R. Attlee: I should like to join with others in expressing our sympathy for the Foreign Secretary. We were encouraged to learn that his condition is improving. I should also like to sympathise with the Prime Minister in the added burden which he has had to undertake. I had a similar experience during the illness of the late Mr. Ernest Bevin. It is true, as the Prime Minister said, that a Prime Minister today has to keep in close touch with foreign affairs, but the difficulty arises in the fact that nowadays a foreign Minister has to go abroad such a lot, and that is where the difficulty of a Prime Minister comes in.
  The Prime Minister yesterday made a very remarkable speech, in which he
  1062
  gave us a very broad survey of foreign affairs, and he will have realised that its general tone and approach was warmly welcomed on this side of the House. If, in the course of my speech, I were to make any criticisms, it is with no desire to make any party points at all. It is desirable, wherever possible, that, in foreign affairs particularly, Government policy should have the support of all. It strengthens us in giving what I believe is a necessary lead in international relations.
  The right hon. Gentleman also made a very realistic speech, and it is necessary to be realistic in foreign affairs. So many critics do not realise that all international relations are a subject for compromise, and that one cannot do just what one would like to do. I know that my late colleague Mr. Bevin was often quite unfairly criticised because his critics said, "Why do you not do this?" He could not do it, because he had to act with others. We are all united in this House and in this country in our earnest desire for peace, and we all welcome the signs of a change in the attitude on the part of Soviet Russia. For my part, I do not think it is useful to speculate as to whether that is a change of heart or of tactics or anything of the kind. I think it is better to accept it as a fact. The right thing is to use any lightening of the tension as a means of improving our relationship.
  I am inclined to agree with the Prime Minister that perhaps the most significant thing has been the change in internal policy in Russia. I notice today in "The Times" a quotation from "Pravda" which was headed "Collective Leadership." There does seem to be a definite departure from the autocracy of Stalin, and it rather confirms the view that many of us held that Stalin was, in fact, the master of Russian policy. Today, there is, at all events, something different, something more like a collecting of the voices of a number of men.
  A further point on which I am very much in agreement with the Prime Minister is that
  "piecemeal solutions of individual problems should not be disdained or improvidently put aside."—[Official Report, 11th May, 1953; Vol. 515, c. 899.]
  There is a great danger in trying to go out with a too-wide objective. When

  1063
  the logs are jammed in the river one must begin by extricating a single log, or one or two logs, in the hope that thereby the whole mass may move. Particularly, here, we want to aim to get closer personal relationships. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman or other Members of Her Majesty's Government have ever met Mr. Malenkov. I have not, to my knowledge. My knowledge of the leaders of Russia is confined now to Mr. Molotov, Mr. Vyshinsky and Mr. Kaganovitch. What we want to get is greater understanding, by us of them and by them of us. It would be a great thing if we could get personal relations which would dissipate some of the Soviet mythology about Britain.
  Another point by the Prime Minister which struck me as wise was that one should not assume that all the troubles of the world are due to Communist initiative. I have no illusions as to the activities of the Comintern, but the fact is that there are other movements in the world as well. The Prime Minister cited the case of the Viet Minh attack in Laos. No doubt there is a policy whereby Soviet Russia, for its own purposes, supports every nationalist movement, but that does not mean that there are no genuine nationalist movements of which we have to take account whether they are in Indo-China, Egypt, Arabia or, for that matter in Africa. It really is an overall simplifying of the problem to put it all down to Soviet intrigue. There is a body of opinion in the United States and some in this country that tend to do just that thing. On the other hand, there are people in this country and elsewhere who tend to put down all our troubles to American policy. That, too, is a mistake.
  It is worth while saying a few words about the United States and about American policy. I hope they will cause no offence. I hope that no one will suggest that I am in any way anti-American. I have very many friends in America and I worked in great harmony with President Truman and his advisers. I am very conscious of all that the Americans have done for the world, besides in the war. Nor do I wish to attack the American Constitution. I merely want to state some facts which
  1064
  do not always seem to be apprehended. Let me begin with a contrast.
  The Prime Minister comes to the House and states his policy. It is the policy of the Government. He can, if he wishes, get a vote in this House in support of it or he can, as in this debate, be satisfied with the great measure of support on both sides. That policy is Government policy and will be carried out by Ministers and by officials. Look on the other side. President Eisenhower makes a great speech. It is the President's speech. He speaks for the Administration, but in America power is divided between the Administration and Congress. For instance, the Administration may desire to spend so many millions in support whether of armaments or some other object, but Congress may cut it down by several millions of dollars. The Administration may wish to encourage our export to the United States but, as in the case of the Chief Joseph Dam, influences frustrate the Administration's policy.
  Therefore, the Government in America are not really master in their own house. Let us remember, too, that Congress is still made up of people who primarily represent the interests of a particular State in the Union. Pressure groups and interests are very strong and, further, the American Administration seems to be less integrated than ours. President Eisenhower makes a speech; shortly thereafter the Secretary of State Mr. Dulles makes a speech, which, I thought, struck rather a different note. We do find on occasions that there is one policy being run by the Treasury, another by the State Department, and perhaps another by the Pentagon.
  A further point seems that the American tradition is to give their representatives overseas a freer hand than we give ours, and less direction. We found rather the same in the relationship, as compared with our chiefs of staffs and our commanders in the field, between the American chiefs of staffs and their generals in the field. I am not complaining. It is just the American tradition. Therefore, we find that General Harrison, in the Panmunjom negotiations, seems to make observations on his own, right off his own bat, and even makes a broadcast. One wants to face these facts.

  1065
  One of the facts of the world situation is that the American Constitution was framed for an isolationist State. Americans did not want to have anything to do with Europe. For many years they had practically no foreign policy, but I do not think that that situation is particularly well suited to a time when America has become the strongest State in the world and has to give a lead. I am not in any way criticising the Americans or the Constitution. I am endeavouring to state facts, because I think that people often are misled and there are misunderstandings and disappointments because we do not understand the American Constitution.
  During the Second World War, President Roosevelt showed himself a very great man. He was also a very great politician and he managed to "work in" Congress to his desires. I think that President Truman very skilfully used to buttress himself with two great Senators, Senator Vandenberg and Senator Connolly. But sometimes one finds that Congress takes the bit between its teeth and one sometimes wonders who is the more powerful, the President or Senator McCarthy. The Prime Minister said that one of the disadvantages of dictatorship is that the dictator is often dictated to by others. One of the disadvantages of the American system of democracy is that it is sometimes hard to find where effective power lies. Therefore, I think that it is in the light of these facts that one should look at some of our problems. All this has some reference to the position of the negotiations in Korea.
  All my information is, though I may be wrong, that the Chinese want a settlement. I believe that the United States Administration want a settlement. The negotiations are in the hands of the American command on behalf of the United Nations. But there are elements in the United States that do not want a settlement. It is just as well to face that fact. There are people who want an all-out war with China and against Communism in general, and there is the strong influence of the Chiang Kai-shek lobby.
  I suggested, therefore, the other day to the Prime Minister that in these negotiations it would be well if there were other advisers from other United Nations States concerned. I did so not because I am
  1066
  distrustful of the Americans, but because I believe that it would strengthen the hands of the American Administration. America is the spokesman of the United Nations and I believe that even in these negotiations it would be useful if there were present other members of the United Nations concerned. I know that this is a matter very largely for the military, but I am quite sure that when, as we all hope, these immediate negotiations for an armistice are concluded, further settlement should not be left exclusively in American hands.
  I am well aware that America has made far the biggest sacrifices in Korea; but I am also well aware that she lays herself open to unjustifiable blame if she keeps everything in her own hands, because there is a tendency to say, "This is American policy and not United Nations policy." I am bound to say that I have been disturbed lately at the hanging on of these negotiations. The Prime Minister said rightly that principles have been agreed, but it seems to me that there is a good deal of haggling. I know that the Chinese did any amount of haggling, but I saw in "The Times" General Harrison's last questions and it seems to me that the Chinese have gone a very long way indeed, after a long time, in accepting the broad outline of the Indian initiative which we all approve.
  I do not think that these other matters —questions of which of the five Powers should be chosen and who should be in control, and so on—are really matters which ought to hang up these negotiations. The Americans have shown great patience in these negotiations. I think that it was inevitable at the start that the conduct of this affair should be in the hands of the United States, but I believe that at this stage, as soon as the negotiations are concluded, it will be for the benefit of the world and of the United States that these things should pass to a collective organ of U.N.O.
  I turn now to China. I do not believe that China is a mere puppet in the hands of Russia. I think that she will wear her Communism with a difference; but I am more certain than ever that, as soon as aggression has been halted, China should take her rightful place on the Security Council. It is really one of the ironies of history that President Roosevelt, against our view, rather pressed that

  1067
  China was a great Power. She was not then. She was the rather ramshackle Power of Chiang Kai-shek torn with dissension, yet she was put in a position on the Security Council. But now, under a different Government, she seems to be evolving as a pretty effective Power. She is entitled to be one of the Big Five and I do not think that her place should be denied to her.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): Not while the actual fighting is going on, though.
  Mr. Attlee: No, soon after the armistice.
  We have a very vital interest in peace in China. Our hopes of increasing our trade with the United States have been greatly lessened by recent events. We may hope that the attitude will change; it is not too hopeful just now. "Trade, not aid" does not seem to have been accepted over there. We are constantly pressed not to trade with China, even in goods which are very remotely connected with war effort. We cannot survive if we are to be restricted, unable to trade effectively with the United States, cut off from China and with all the difficulties of the Iron Curtain. We, therefore, have as vital an interest as anybody in the settlement of this China affair, and I am sure that our American friends will recognise this. It is not too soon for heart-to-heart talks to take place with the United States on how these matters are to be settled after the armistice.
  There are different views. I saw President Truman on this matter and we discussed very fully the question of Formosa and all the rest, and we found that we had to agree to differ on points; but I think we should discuss those points as soon as possible and try to clear them up. My hon. Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) made a very powerful speech on the position of Indo-China and the Prime Minister, as I have already noted, said he thought it was unwise to assume that the present position in Indo-China was just a matter of Chinese or Russian intrigue. I am certain that any attempt to make the Indo-Chinese affair into a U.N.O. matter would
  1068
  cause a great split in the United Nations and, what is even more serious for us, a split in the Commonwealth.
  I recently met a large number of people from Asian countries. Rightly or wrongly, they all took the view that in its origin Viet Minh was very largely a revolt against French colonialism. Viet Minh, naturally, accepts support from the Chinese or anybody else, just as China accepts help from Russia, but it would be quite contrary to the whole history of that part of the world to assume that the Indo-Chinese want to become satellites of China.
  France was slow in recognising this nationalist movement. I am not blaming the French, because they were knocked out of the war and had a very difficult task in rebuilding their position and, perhaps, in understanding the new forces which were moving in Asia, but I cannot help thinking that there was a possibility, at one time, that this business could have been settled and that Ho Chi Minh might today have been a Prime Minister in a part of Indo-China—Viet Nam—just as some other people with whom we have disagreed in the past are now Prime Ministers in the British Commonwealth. It is essential that the French should accept the logic of events. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker) made a very full point on that; in fact, he covered a very large number of the points in the Prime Minister's speech. He said that colonialism belongs to a past age. It undoubtedly does in Asia.
  I do not want to say very much on the Egyptian position. I agree that it is difficult, with General Neguib using rather violent and threatening language, not to react against it, as I think the Prime Minister did, but here again we have to realise that we are face to face with an insurgent nationalism—and nationalism is a very heady wine. For years we have had to deal with the ruling class in Egypt—a class which, in my view, has lived in luxury on the misery of the fellaheen. People tell me that General Neguib and the young men around him are fighting against corruption. They are out for a new Egypt. We should therefore view them with a great deal of sympathy.

  1069
  We can congratulate the Government on having tackled that very vexed question of the Sudan. We now have the question of this base in Egypt. I do not know what stage the negotiations have reached. I am afraid we have to recognise that the Egyptians set an immense store on their sovereignty, and that they regard anything like stationing troops in their country as a violation of their sovereignty. Perhaps that is because they are rather new to self-government. Old Governments can accept the presence of troops from other countries without feeling too disturbed about it.
  I am quite sure that a base in Egypt, against the will of the Egyptians, will be a very weak base, however well equipped. I think we all want to get our troops out. I know efforts have been made—efforts were made in our time—to try to get not just a British base but a base for the support of the whole of the Middle East, and I hope that may yet be achieved. I hope that Egypt may take her part because, frankly having looked at this question very often, I do not see anywhere else in that area where we could establish a base with the facilities we have in the Suez Canal. On the other hand, one has to weigh against that the nationalist aspirations of the Egyptians.
  I turn for a moment to Europe. I have only a very few words to say. My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) will be speaking in the debate and will be dealing with this matter at greater length. We have to face up to this German problem. The fact is that East Germany is heavily armed and Western Germany is not armed. We desire a united Germany, but a united democratic Germany. There is a danger that if we join these two parts of Germany when one part is controlled by a faction which is heavily armed, democracy might not last long in Germany.
  It is essential that in dealing with the German problem we should continue to deal with it from strength, by building up our N.A.T.O. forces. On the other hand, looking broadly at this problem, I think it is a mistake to suggest that a united Germany should automatically be part of N.A.T.O. The Russians are bound to object to that, just as we should object if it were suggested that Western Germany should become a satellite of the Russian Empire. We laid down certain conditions with regard to German rearmament. They
  1070
  deal with the contributions Westen Germany might make for our common defence, but if we get a united Germany and set up a Government there, that Government will have to decide what they are going to do.
  The Prime Minister invoked Locarno. I remember Locarno, and the Locarno spirit. I am not altogether clear what this would amount to in practice. I should rather like to hear it further developed. I was not quite sure how, in the present world, the various parts in the drama of Locarno were assigned; but it is a suggestion. I have one word to say about the Austrian Treaty. Soviet Russia would make a tremendous gesture if she could agree to the Austrian Treaty.
  With regard to a conference on the highest level, I agree with the Prime Minister that it would not be advisable to stage a conference with an enormous retinue of experts. I am sure that anything in the way of public discussions would be a mistake. We have seen that at U.N.O. I would say, however, that any such conference needs most careful preparation. We want to be sure what we want, and that applies not only to this country but to the United States of America.
  I want to advert to that point for one moment because there, again, we have the peculiar Constitutional position of America. It would be possible for President Eisenhower to attend a conference and, on his return to the United States, to be thrown over, as President Wilson was after the discussions at Versailles. It is, therefore, essential that whoever goes to this conference should go with full authority. We need full co-operation in searching out these ideas. We should be unwise—I think the Prime Minister would agree—to expect that that conference would dramatically clear up all international difficulties. Its chief value would be in getting personal contacts and understanding, from which a careful building up of peace might ensue.
  We have had a number of remarkable speeches and pronouncements in recent weeks. We have had the speech of President Eisenhower. We had the "Pravda" article, which showed some signs of thaw in the frozen region of the relationships of Russia with the Western world. I am quite sure that the Prime Minister's speech has made a valuable

  1071
  contribution, and I think this House has, too, because I think the speeches of yesterday were kept at a high level of debate, and I am quite certain that Great Britain still has the power and the will to give a lead for peace.
  4.11 p.m.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition for the reference he made at the beginning of his speech to the Foreign Secretary. We on this side of the House are very glad indeed to see the recovery that the right hon. Gentleman himself has made, and we certainly hope that my right hon. Friend's recovery will be as complete. The right hon. Gentleman began by paying a compliment to the tone and tenor of the speech of the Prime Minister. I hope he will not regard it as an impertinence in a junior Minister to say that we on this side thought the tone and tenor of his speech also was admirable.
  The Prime Minister began his speech yesterday by saying that he could deal only with the salient features, and that even for that a severe process of selection and suppression was required, and he added that I would supplement his account. I have found the process of selection and suppression of the supplement equally severe, because many interesting and valuable points were raised yesterday from both sides of the House, and some of them were topics worthy of lengthy discussion in themselves. Some of them will be met, I hope, in the speech of my hon. Friend later and in mine. I do assure hon. Members who made those points that they will be carefully studied.
  I think we would agree with the shrewd comments the right hon. Gentleman made upon the Prime Minister's proposal for a high level conference. We should not regard the holding of such a conference as inconsistent with seeking to settle the questions at issue one by one, and I cannot see that it would do harm provided it were made clear that a comprehensive settlement covering every detail of disagreement would be out of the question. It would establish personal contact, it would help to maintain the momentum of the current very hopeful
  1072
  developments, and it seems to me that it might do a great deal of good.
  Criticism was made yesterday from the other side of the House that the Government were not following up this proposition by having detailed negotiations on a sufficient number of subjects. So far as disarmament is concerned, we are ready to begin straight away in the Disarmament Commission, that has been set up again by the decision of the Assembly, to negotiate on disarmament. We have certain proposals on that topic, and we can go straight away into negotiations with the Soviet Government. We would certainly note again the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker) as to the way those negotiations should be handled.
  Our offer to discuss the elections throughout Germany still stands. That is not quite such a simple matter as it may seem. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made a very serious point when he stated the fact that with an armed Eastern Germany and a disarmed Western Germany it would take a little time to arrange that those elections would be free. But we are ready to negotiate upon that matter.
  As to Austria, where for all too long matters have been held up, upon the initiative of the Government invitations have been sent to the Deputies to reconvene so that we can see whether we can get further in that matter.
  We are against making any particular negotiation the test. We are against getting into a position in which we say or let people believe that all our hopes and fears rest upon the success of a particular negotiation. I think our general line should be one of patience, and not forcing the other side or even some of our friends, into an irrevocable position. We should seek to let things develop, remembering that there are plenty of matters in hand where progress can be made. I do think it would be wise for us all to remember that fact.
  When I say that there are plenty of negotiations in hand, that brings us at once to the question of Korea. I think there is almost complete agreement in this House that the first step should be an armistice in Korea to bring to an end a conflict which is causing so much loss

  1073
  of life and misery to so many, to stop a conflict which may spread, and also to maintain the momentum behind the present hopeful developments. There has been a good deal of comment and criticism on the handling of the negotiations, and there are varying views as to how they have been conducted. I think the right hon. Gentleman was exceedingly moderate in his comment upon those matters.
  One view is that our negotiators have been behaving with remarkable patience over the months. They have seen the Communists take advantage of the talks to recover from a position of serious military disadvantage and to build up great strength; there has been hard bargaining, and the Communists certainly have not been sparing in their use of invective; but a draft agreement has been gradually built up by concessions on both sides, and that points to the probability that our negotiators were right to stand firm. There is not to be any forced repatriation. That was not only a point of principle. It was indeed a point of honour. That is one view of the negotiations, but many speakers during the debate have made criticism of the action of our negotiators.
  I will be quite frank and say that I myself agree with one criticism. I think it is unfortunate that the negotiators should proceed straight from the negotiating tent each day to a Press conference. It seems to me very difficult for them to do themselves justice in those circumstances. That seems to me to be the wrong atmosphere for the negotiators to get into straight after each conference. But it happens on both sides. It is a convention for the negotiators on both sides to do that, and it appears to be one of the unfortunate conventions in Korea at the present time.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Wll the right hon. and learned Gentleman, in justice, remember that this business if dragging in the Press was initiated by the United Nations' side and not on the other, and that the very first break down of the original negotiations so long ago was precisely on this attempt to bring the reporters into the scene of the negotiations?
  Mr. Lloyd: I was trying not to take sides upon this particular matter, but I think it is unfortunate that both sides
  1074
  should get into the atmosphere of a Press conference immediately after the negotiations.
  However, the main charge has really been against General Harrison, and I should like to deal with that in rather more detail, because the impression has been given that, agreement having been reached on points of principle, needless haggling is going on about matters of detail. I do not believe that that is the case. I think that that is an unjust comment, and I shall try to illustrate what I mean.
  The Communists have put forward an eight point plan, and that appears to safeguard the point of principle and point of honour to which I have just referred. That is excellent. It adopts the idea of the Indian Resolution that a repatriation commission should be set up. It provides that prisoners who have not gone home after 60 days should be handed over to the commission. It solves one of the difficulties of the Indian Resolution by nominating India as the fifth member of the commission. The Indian Resolution did not say who would be umpire, it will be remembered. The eight point plan provides for an opportunity to be given to explain to the prisoners how their safety will be ensured if they do return home. All this is acceptable and it is, indeed, to be supported.
  These proposals, however, differ from the Indian Resolution in two important respects. First of all, they involve the five countries named in sending contingents of armed forces to Korea. I believe that there are obvious and practical difficulties in that. If we look at the case of Switzerland, for example, with no standing army, it seems to me that a proposal that she must send a contingent of armed forces to Korea is impracticable and something which may involve considerable delay, possibly of many months. Some people think that there are enough armed contingents in Korea already; and there are other difficulties of language, and so on.
  Her Majesty's Government prefer the Indian Resolution on this point, which gives the commission discretion in the matter. They could call upon the parties to the conflict, or the member States of the United Nations or their own Governments for such help as they needed. Possibly one neutral country might provide

  1075
  all the guards. That might be a much simpler solution. However, I certainly hope that this will not be a breaking point. It seems to me that this is a matter which is capable of adjustment.
  The second difference from the Indian Resolution—and this is not a detail—is that under the eight point proposal no future is clearly marked out for those who refuse repatriation. After four months their future is to be in the hands of the political conference, but there is no provision for the contingency of disagreement at that conference. The Indian Resolution was quite different. It provided that after 90 days the future of such men should be referred to the political conference, and if it failed to agree within 30 days, then their resettlement should be the responsibility of the United Nations, not of the United Nations Command but the responsibility of the whole United Nations.
  I think that that alternative is really much to be preferred. It is a point of substance, and the case for it was put very clearly by Mr. Krishna Menon in his speech on 19th November, 1952, to the Political Committee of the United Nations. Mr. Menon, who, as we all know, made a notable contribution towards the solution of this matter said:
  "… there must be an understanding that you cannot keep human beings in captivity all their lives or for indeterminate periods. …Therefore, if as a result of all this there should be a number of persons whom it has not been possible to return to their homelands for one reason or another, whatever the reason may be, and if there are people who are in this state of suspended animation then there must be some provision made."
  He went on to say that he thought it should be the responsibility of the United Nations to see that they should be looked after.
  I hope that agreement will be reached on something resembling the Indian Resolution, but I regard it as unfair to say that this is "haggling over a point of detail." I think that indefinite captivity is more than a detail to those likely to endure it. However, we do consider —and I think that all sides of the House consider—that the Communist attitude since March has been a step forward, and we believe that if there is the will for peace, the two points which I have
  1076
  mentioned can be solved. I would deprecate the talk of deadlock that one hears because I do not believe that there is a deadlock. I also think that when one is so near a solution it would be a mistake to change the negotiators at this moment. If I understood the right hon. Gentleman's speech, he was not suggesting that at this moment we should change negotiators.
  May I also, on this matter, say a word to the people on the other side. There are those who say that these arrangements which we are supporting—these arrangements of the Indian Resolution— are too complicated and give too much opportunity, if there is bad faith, for friction and delay. That comment could be made about almost any other clause in the draft armistice agreement at the present time, and I do not think that we shall make greater dangers for the future by putting forward the solution to this problem which was embodied in the Indian Resolution.
  As for what has been suggested for after the armistice, we are, I think, in complete agreement with the right hon. Gentleman. After the armistice there will be a political conference. That is provided for in the armistice agreement. Of course, the composition of the negotiators would be quite different from those engaged upon the present negotiations. That conference will have to deal with the future of Korea and, no doubt, with other matters.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already spoken of the future of Korea, and has said that time should be allowed to be the healer. Certainly, we have the earnest hope that all the people of Korea, whose bravery and resilience I have seen for myself, will lay aside their thoughts of vengeance against one another and, in time, work together in a Korea, united not by conquest but by toleration and good will. That is a very large hope, I know, in present circumstances in Korea, but we must foster it in every way we can.
  We have been questioned about the future status of the Peking Government in the United Nations, and I think that it was said that a declaration now by Her Majesty's Government that they would support the Peking Government for the Chinese permanent seat would

  1077
  help along the peace. Our position is quite clear. We supported the recognition of the Central People's Government of China; I think that, in fact, my right hon. Friend was the first to suggest it. We did that, not because we particularly liked that Government, but because it was the effective Government of China. Then came the aggression in Korea.
  While that conflict is still in progress it seems quite out of the question to support the Central People's Government's claim or to promise to support it in a contingency which has not yet arisen. When peace has been established in Korea, a different situation will arise, and that is one of the matters which will have to be discussed. I can assure the House that Her Majesty's Government will have a clear viewpoint on that matter at that time.
  Many comments have been made on the question of Thailand and Indo-China. I did not hear it, but I read with great interest the speech of the hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Wyatt). I do not agree with everything that he said, but I agree that the points which he made will require very careful attention. I can assure him that there is no complacency on this side of the House about pos-sible developments in South-East Asia— the threat to Thailand, Burma and indirectly to India. The Prime Minister put the present situation in its correct perspective.
  The Prime Minister: Siam, please.
  Mr. Lloyd: The Siamese Government have reacted to this threat by taking precautionary measures on the north-east frontier, and I think they will receive the support of the vast majority of the members of the United Nations in their determination to maintain their independence, if their independence is threatened.
  I am glad to see co-operation between the Siamese Government and Her Majesty's Government is increasing. With regard to the reference of this dispute to the United Nations at the present time, that matter is in a state of flux, and it is not certain who wants what. I do not think that we quarrel very much with what the right hon. Gentleman said upon that topic.
  On the question of the Middle East, the suggestion was made yesterday, I
  1078
  think from both sides of the House, that Her Majesty's Government had taken up an unfriendly attitude towards the Arab States at the United Nations. Hon. Members on both sides said that they thought the Arab criticisms were justified. I do not want to revive a controversy which I thought was buried. All I can do is to ask the hon. Members concerned to re-read the speeches made during that debate.
  There have been recently two outstanding events in the Arab world. I refer to the accession of the two young Kings of Iraq and Jordan, two countries with which we have ties of friendship and treaty agreements, and I am sure that the House would wish to extend its good wishes to the young rulers.
  Great wealth is coming into Iraq from the oil revenues. A development board has been set up and its work should mean a great improvement in the lot of the people. We know the difficulties there —the high cost of living, the taxation problems, the social discontent—but we believe that the new reign can mean a period of great prosperity and happiness to the people of that country. We send to them and to the people of the Jordan our good wishes upon the accession of their rulers.
  I will, if I may, say just one word about the Sudan in answer to the very wise and thoughtful speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. E. Wakefield). I have already given the House an account of my own visit, and subsequent thought has really given me no reason to change the conclusions which I then put forward. I think that our policy is clear and is supported by most hon. Members. Our aim is self-government by the Sudanese, followed by self-determination, and we intend to operate the Agreement in that spirit.
  Articles 1 and 8 of the Agreement provide for a free and neutral atmosphere. It seems to me that one of the main tasks of the present Administration is to continue orderly administration of the country and to ensure the free and neutral atmosphere which is required. It was quite obvious during my visit that difficulties would arise. The blast of Egyptian propaganda, the influx of Egyptians and Egyptian money, inflammatory speeches from beyond the border and within it, both by members of the

  1079
  Egyptian Government and others—Salah el Din, the ex-Wafd Minister for Foreign Affairs was in Khartoum when I was there, speaking in a violent anti-British manner.
  I spoke vigorously on these matters to the Egyptian Government and to the Sudanese, and since my visit the Sudanese themselves have had to take action. I am sure hon. Members will agree that the Umma Party's deputation to Cairo to protest is a welcome sign of Sudanese determination not to be put upon in these matters. My own belief is that the large majority of Sudanese want independence, but my opinion is not the point. The point is that the Sudanese themselves should have a free choice. We do not seek to say whether that choice should be for complete independence or for some form of union with Egypt. This is a matter for the Sudanese themselves, and we are determined to see that they have the chance to make that choice.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, West referred to the British officials. They have a most important job to do—to preserve the stability of administration, to stand up to attacks upon their official and personal reputations and integrity, to continue to follow with undeviating devotion the path they know to be best for the Sudanese, and to hold the ring in this very difficult task. I think they can count upon the support of all hon. Members in their endeavours to do their duty in these respects, and we intend to watch over their interests to see that they are fairly treated. In this connection we are much encouraged by the friendly disposition of the leading Sudanese.
  I now come to the question of Egypt, and I want, if I am not trespassing too much on the indulgence of the House, to say a word or two about the course which the negotiations have taken. We are in Egypt by virtue of our Treaty rights—a Treaty which, when it was signed in 1936, was hailed as a great triumph for Egyptian statesmanship. My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Mr. Mott-Radclyffe) referred to some of the articles in that Treaty, and pointed out that our rights do not end in 1956. I think it would be well for more people to study the terms of that Treaty.
  1080
  However, we would much prefer an amicable revision of that Treaty and new arrangements arrived at by amicable means. When General Neguib came to power in the summer, he made it clear that, in view of his other preoccupations, he was in no hurry to discuss the main matters outstanding. Towards the end of September, Her Majesty's Ambassador in Cairo told him that Her Majesty's Government would shortly approve the draft self-government ordinance for the Sudan and hoped that we should be able to agree on a constructive approach together to the Sudan.
  In November, the Egyptian Government gave us their reply on the Sudan, and later said that they would like to open defence discussions when the Sudan question was out of the way, perhaps in January or February. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, there was some discussion between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government—both the Truman Administration and the present Administration—and it was agreed to make a joint approach.
  On 15th March, however, General Neguib said that he was not prepared to issue an invitation to the United States Government to join in the talks. Her Majesty's Government, while regretting that fact, decided to go on alone. This decision was conveyed by Her Majesty's Minister in Cairo in my presence when I went to see General Neguib on 28th March. It was made clear on that occasion, and subsequently, that we wished to discuss a number of topics.
  The first was the maintenance of the base in peace with a view to its immediate reactivation in war. The reason for those words "immediate reactivation in war" is, I think, pretty obvious. Previously, there has been time, many months after the outbreak of a war, to develop and prepare the base; but in modern conditions, if there should be a war, which we all so much fear, it does not seem likely that there would be any such interval available.
  Secondly, we wanted to discuss the air defence of the base area, a complicated and technical matter requiring the most modern equipment and skills, and impossible unless those engaged in it have opportunities of practical experience in co-operation with those similarly trained.

  1081
  Thirdly, we wished to discuss the phased withdrawal of British troops. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, we have no wish to keep 80,000 men there, and it was hoped to reduce British personnel to a small fraction of that number. We wished to discuss regional arrangements for collective defence and a programme of military and economic assistance to Egypt. It was made clear to the Egyptians that we did not seek to fix the order in which these matters were to be discussed, but we made it quite clear that, in our view, they were inextricably mixed up—that they were inter-dependent matters. I think hon. Members will agree that that was a constructive and reasonable approach, because this base is not there for our glorification or for imperialist or sinister purposes. It is part of the defence of the free world.
  I discussed these matters informally with two members of the Military Committee when I was in Cairo. One of them said, "We cannot understand why you are worrying about these matters now. We will be friends with you when the attack comes—we will make a pact then." But "then" would be too late, because in modern conditions small countries and even great countries cannot stand alone. Defence and security must be collective. Just as no one country in Western Europe can assure its own defence—indeed, not all the countries of Western Europe can do so together—we have the United States and Canada in with us—and even after four years of collaboration it cannot be said that our defences are adequate; so, in the Middle East, no one country can stand alone. All the Arab countries put together cannot produce or procure the necessary equipment and technical skills. They cannot, on their own, keep pace with the modern and terrifying techniques of war, and the measures required to combat them.
  We had hoped that when these matters had been discussed dispassionately as technical matters, which, indeed, many of them are, we would reach understanding and agreement. But at an early stage, in relation to the maintenance of the base, the Egyptian Government sought to insist on certain points. In general terms, they were as follow:
  1082
  First of all, that physical and technical control and direction of the base and of any British equipment and installations left in it were to be Egyptian. Secondly, that any British personnel left behind in the base must be in Egyptian employ, the Egyptians having the right to dismiss them. Thirdly, that instructions to these British men for the handling of British stores and equipment could only be passed to them through the Egyptian Government.
  Fourthly, the Egyptians should have the sole right to decide, or at least a right of veto on, the use to which our stores and installations should be put. Hon. Members will remember our Treaty obligations to Jordan and Iraq and in connection with the tripartite declaration about the position of Israel and her neighbours. So there was to be a right of veto by the Egyptian Government. Fifthly, British technicians were to be replaced by Egyptians in a very short time. We got the impression that they were thinking in terms of months. Such arrangements could have had only one result; the base would rapidly have become completely useless, with the resulting effect on the maintenance of our Forces and the defence of the whole area.
  I often wonder whether it is sufficiently understood what the base actually consists of. During the last war it supported the equivalent of about 28 infantry divisions and 13 armoured divisions, in addition to Royal naval units and air forces totalling about 65 squadrons. Even today the various depots, workshops, airfields, power stations and hospitals are having to be maintained on an extensive scale. The ordnance depot at Tel-el-Kebir covers an area of about 15 square miles, and even that contains only about a quarter of the total stores held in the base. These stores include large quantities of ammunition, thousands of vehicles and vast quantities of bridging equipment, locomotives and cranes, and the total value of the stores exceeds £200 million.
  The fixed assets—the airfields, the power stations, the hospitals and the workshops are supplemented by extensive road, rail and signal communications and two fully developed military ports; and the replacement of such facilities today might cost some £300 million. The facts which I have given indicate that the maintenance of such valuable and intricate capital assets

  1083
  requires wide technical knowledge and skilled administrative experience.
  This is one of the great assets in the defence of the free world. The idea that, with the best of good will, it should be handed over under the conditions which I have set before the House seems to me to show that the base would rapidly deteriorate into something which would take a period of years to reactivate if there should be another war. These propositions, taken as a whole, are obviously unacceptable, and I think they will appear so to every person of common sense.
  Our present position has been stated by the Prime Minister. In spite of all the verbal provocations there have been, we wanted these negotiations to be conducted with good will. We still want to negotiate. We have not sought to exacerbate feelings in either country in spite of all the provocation. However, there is one matter which I want to put before the House before I sit down. As my right hon. Friend mentioned yesterday, there have been a number of incidents in the Canal Zone. These incidents have increased in frequency and seriousness during the past month. Since 1st April there have been about 30 attacks of one kind or another upon British personnel or British installations. British soldiers have been assaulted or shot at from ambushes.
  On 16th April, for example, a British driver was assaulted and is still unaccounted for. Two days later a Royal Air Force coach and driver disappeared between Ismailia and Abu Sueir. Next day an East African driver and vehicle were missing. On 27th April a British military jeep containing a British warrant officer and sergeant was fired on by Egyptian civilians in two taxis on the main Cairo—Ismailia road, near Tel-el-Kebir. The British sergeant was killed and the warrant officer wounded. The two taxis made off towards Cairo. On 3rd May the wife of the Deputy Director of Medical Services was shot at and wounded by armed Egyptians while picnicking on the banks of the Suez Canal.
  These are merely examples of the kind of thing which has been going on. We have strong grounds for believing that in many cases these attacks have been carried out under the direction of, or at least with the connivance of, members
  1084
  of the Egyptian Armed Forces. We kept very quiet about these matters in order to create the best possible atmosphere we could for the talks, but in the circumstances our soldiers have no option but to defend themselves.
  I really cannot regard as warranted a statement like that of the hon. Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle) yesterday, that the Prime Minister's most temperate observation on the matter amounted almost to a declaration of war. We must watch the development of events in Egypt, as the Prime Minister said, with the composure which follows from the combination of patience with strength.
  One final word, on the question of relations between ourselves and the United States of America. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made some very shrewd comments on the American system and upon the division of powers there. It was suggested repeatedly during yesterday's debate that we should challenge the United States Government on this subject or on that, and that we should force them to come to an agreement with us. It was suggested that we should issue public warnings. We do continually exchange views on every topic. Of course, there are differences of opinion, and we seek to settle those differences, and usually we do.
  At present, I would utter this word of warning to those in both countries who criticise the other country, those in both countries who, somewhat querulously, demand that the other country should give way on everything. I would ask them to remember this plain fact, that provided our two countries stand together on essentials there is no limit to what we can do for the world and ourselves; but if we fall apart, or if we are forced apart, there is no danger which may not befall us and the world.
  4.46 p.m.
  Miss Jennie Lee: I heard all the speeches yesterday, including that of the Prime Minister, and I also heard my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition open the debate today. What must strike all of us is a certain correlation of agreement between the speech of the Prime Minister yesterday and that of my right hon. Friend today.
  In spite of all the varying emphasis with which we speak in this House, it is clear that we should all like to go at

  1085
  least half way to meet the offers from Soviet Russia, and that we should like to explore to the utmost the possibility of a truce in Korea. Even in the guarded phrases of the Minister of State today and the Opposition spokesman yesterday, it was apparent to anyone who was listening that all of us in the House would like to see the world go beyond the point of a truce in Korea to having the real Government of China represented at the United Nations. I am sure that no one in any part of the House would query that.
  All of us were encouraged by the words of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who made it clear that if we are to achieve a truce in Korea and an easing of the present international situation, it is absolutely essential that Great Britain speaks as Great Britain and that we no longer either hedge or apologise if in the contribution which we are to make to international affairs we disagree with the United States of America. It is an advance in the discussions in this House to have reached this stage.
  I should like to see a situation in which a Socialist Government was in power in this country and that the Prime Minister was the leader of the Opposition. I believe the Prime Minister has a sufficient sense of history, sympathy and imagination, and also a Liberal past, to be anxious to see his country fitting into contemporary reality. But what frightens me about some of his remarks and, very much more so, some of the comments which have come from his hon. Friends, is that hon. Members opposite do not seem to be talking in terms of the modern world.
  For instance, when my hon Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) talked about Indo-China, he said something with which many of us on this side would agree, that the best advice that any friends of France could give to France at the present moment is to clear out of Indo-China. If the French in Indo-China stated quite definitely and unequivocably that they no longer hoped to exert any colonial power in Indo-China, then it might be possible to meet the indigenous revolutionary forces there and to have a government that would be a creature neither of Soviet Russia, France nor anywhere else.
  1086
  I believe that that would be a helping forward of the security of the whole world, and that if those sentiments had been expressed by the Labour Government at the time when they were giving independence to India, and removing all doubts and suspicions between ourselves and India by stating a definite date on which we would leave India, then it would have been possible for us to help forward the great movement towards world peace.
  What troubles me profoundly is that we all are meeting in a House of Commons with a Tory Government, albeit with a Prime Minister who has been everything in his rich past, even a Liberal, a Prime Minister for whom all of us have a certain respect and a certain affection. He is sufficiently sensitive to know that that is true. Every soldier in the line of battle respects the soldier in the opposite trenches if he feels he believes in what he is fighting for and is a brave man for his own side. It is in that sense that I pay my respects to the Prime Minister. But if Great Britain is merely to fight the battles which made up her past, then we are not going to be listened to by the rest of the world, for we shall have nothing to say.
  I observed that when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was speaking only half of the benches opposite were occupied by hon. Members listening to one who is a former Prime Minister of this country and whom I hope and believe, will be a future Prime Minister. When the Prime Minister was speaking yesterday we on these benches were present to hear what he was saying. But what concerns me is whether, when we have these debates between Government and Opposition, we are talking to ourselves or to any other country, or whether the rest of the world is listening to what we have got to say?
  The Prime Minister: Some of them.
  Miss Lee: The Prime Minister says that some of them are listening. I do not think enough are listening; I do not think we have made our position in world affairs sufficiently clear to win for us the allies that we could have had in the Middle East and in the Far East. I have already spoken about Indo-China. I know what we would like the French to

  1087
  do—we know what some of us would advise the French to do—but in the same debate in which we express those sentiments we have every Member on the Government side saying in regard to Egypt and the Suez Canal that we must sing the old-fashioned song:
  "We don't want to fight, but by jingo if we do."
  I do not believe that responsible people in the world were impressed yesterday by the Prime Minister shaking his fist at General Neguib at the same time as Mr. Dulles was paying him nice compliments.
  Mr. John Hynd: And giving him a revolver.
  Miss Lee: Yes, he gave him a revolver, and sometimes in modern world conditions a gift of a revolver is the most effective kind of kiss that one can receive. But the result is the same. So we have the Prime Minister of Great Britain telling General Neguib that if he goes too far we will fight him; there will be war between us. That, in effect, was the statement made by the Prime Minister. Now we have the representative of America on the same day arriving in Cairo and saying that General Neguib is the representative of a brave new world and how much he admires what he has done.
  When the Prime Minister gets up and says that we have not a single division in this country, that we are spreading ourselves broad and wide in many foreign parts, and then says, if he will forgive me, rather querulously that the world is not really grateful enough for the risks we are taking and for what we are sacrificing, I would ask him, does he, with his imperial memories think that that is the language of strength? Does he think that that language is going to give to Great Britain in 1953 the position which she ought to have in the world?
  I believe that if we in this island are going to measure our strength in Korea, in Indo-China, in the advice we give in Egypt or anywhere else by the guns or men we can assemble, then indeed we will be reduced to the position which the Prime Minister has relegated to us more than once, a very junior satellite or at the best an ally of America, which accounts for a fraction of one-twentieth of the strength—
  The Prime Minister: The Americans are bearing nineteen-twentieths of the Korean war.
  Miss Lee: The Prime Minister said that the Americans are responsible for nineteen-twentieths of the fighting forces in Korea. We account for a fraction of the remaining one-twentieth. That, of course, is the language of an age that is dead. That is naked power politics. If we want to play simple power politics we are beaten before we start. When we talk in that way we throw overboard everything that the United Nations stands for, and something more precious than that.
  There is a revolution going on all over the world. There is no nation so small and no race so intimidated that it does not want some corner of the world to call its own. That is a general sentiment with which none of us would disagree. It is put in moving terms by the State of Israel. Many of us on this side of the House were delighted that the Prime Minister and other speakers on the Government benches went out of their way in this debate to say to the Middle East that the State of Israel has been founded; that the Jews are entitled to have their own corner of the world; and that the honour of the British Government, of the British Opposition and of all of us is at stake in seeing that, having achieved their corner of the world, the Jews shall be helped to enjoy security and development.
  I disagree profoundly with one hon. Member who said yesterday that in talking so clearly about the State of Israel we were being unfriendly to the surrounding Arab States. Nothing could be more friendly to the surrounding Arab States than to put them out of their doubt about our intentions in regard to Israel. The next most friendly thing we could do to the Arab States would be to say to Egypt, "We accept that we have no more right in Egypt than the French have in Indo-China." I believe that if France and Britain would get together, if France would talk in those terms to Indo-China and if we would talk in those terms to Egypt, we would have the beginning of forces in the world that would not require to be driven in desperation either to the shelter of the American dollar or to the shelter of Soviet Communism.
  I do not believe that the 20th century world wants to live under the domination

  1089
  of either the American dollar, of American values, or under the domination of Soviet Russia. Why I am so anxious to see a Labour Government in this country is because a Labour Government in Great Britain represents the rising strength of a class which at one time in this island was an oppressed class. The Labour movement is built up not only of the weakest and the most helpless among the working people of this island; it is built up also of some of the strongest and the proudest in the working class movement who would not see their weaker brethren trampled upon.
  There is a moral in that for the whole world. There are still too many members on the Government benches who, when they are talking about Africans, Egyptians, Chinese, even Indians—in fact any people of a less developed industry or another colour of skin than themselves —have the historical hangover of believing that they have the right to patronise them. What we know—and I believe that this is at the very kernel of world problems at the present time—is that if we insult a single Egyptian fellaheen, we are insulting every Egyptian; if we insult a single African, no matter how weak he may be in physique, education or anything else, the people who will run to his rescue are the best and the strongest and the proudest of his own race.
  It is only the uncertain, either in the case of class oppression or racial oppression, who seek to pass the colour line. The first experience I had in America was of a negro who was neither entirely black nor white, who was very uncertain of himself, who was very uncertain in his loyalties. All he wanted to do was to pass as a white American. The negroes with whom I became friends in America, the negroes who matter in America and the coloured people Who matter in Africa, the Egyptians who matter, the Indians who matter, are those who will not see a single member of their class, religious group or race oppressed without feeling that the insult is to them as well as to the other members of the race.
  That is why I have believed that, although this has been a most thoughtful debate, if hon. Members will forgive me, some of it has been superficial. We have been talking about what we would like the Americans to do, the Russians to
  1090
  do, the French to do. We have been talking about what we would like the United Nations to do. We have not, however, made it clear to the world what we ourselves believe in and what we ourselves intend to do.
  I shall conclude with two propositions which I believe are fundamental if Great Britain is to give the leadership—or, to use the word I prefer—the comradeship which so many nations in the world now desire. First, we must be quite unequivocal in our attitude to people of a different race, a different religion and a different colour of skin than ourselves. No matter what the Government, when we show race prejudice as we did in the case of Seretse Khama; when we show old-fashioned colonialism, such as we do when we force federation on Central Africa against the wishes of the African people, we are so confusing our own point of view, both in the eyes of liberal Americans and people elsewhere, that they do not really know what we stand for.
  I do not think there is any need for ambiguity about the point of view of Britain. I believe our greatest contribution to international affairs was when we named the date on which India should have its independence. I hope my own party will look around the world to every country with which we have either political or economic ties to see if there is even a suspicion of colonialism or patronage in relation to those people. We should do precisely what we did in relation to India, Pakistan, Burma and the rest—in other words, name the date.
  On that basis we should then turn to the United States of America and say that we appreciate that there is a great argument going on there, as there is in our own country. For there are liberal Americans who do not understand our point of view about Egypt and with many of whom Mr. Dulles will not be in trouble. There are liberal Americans who are anxious to see Indo-China and other parts of the world liberated from what they call old-fashioned colonialism.
  We cannot talk to those Americans when, at the same time, we approach Washington with a begging bowl held out, because money talks louder than words. I am grieved and shamed when I hear that the contribution which our country can make to international affairs

  1091
  is lost because of the clatter of the dollars falling into the begging bowl. I am entitled to say that, because I voted against the first American loan that went through this House of Commons in what I considered to be most undignified haste in the first few months of a Labour Government at the end of 1945. The present Government are not entitled to criticise because hon. Gentlemen opposite supported that proposition. Their only suggestion was that, if there had been a Tory Government then, we might have got a bigger loan from America on easier terms. Of course there were a few independent Tories as there were some of us on these benches who felt that Great Britain was throwing aside its real powers of influence in the world at the time we accepted that rather disgraceful loan.
  When the time of Marshall Aid came I believe that America reached its highest point of post-war liberalism. Our position was more dignified then because we were getting from America but we were giving to the rest of the world. Now once again we are in a most undignified position. We are being sneered at and criticised in Washington. When members of Congress meet in debate, they do not discuss what is the point of view of Britain about Egypt or Indo-China or Korea or anywhere else. All they discuss is how much poor old John Bull wants to get from the American citizens in dollar aid.
  This country cannot hope to play the part it must play in the world until we have the type of government—I believe it can only be a Labour Government— which says with all courtesy to the United States of America, "Thank you very much but we no longer intend to occupy a mendicant role in the world. We will so organise our resources, we will so organise our defence at home and abroad, that we do not become cheap show-offs, so that we do not try to do what we cannot afford but live within our means."
  I believe that if Great Britain would dignify her relationships with America everything we have to say to the rest of the world would be listened to with tenfold respect. I believe the essential thing we have to say to the world is that we— particularly on these benches, who know
  1092
  what it is to fight against economic oppression—appreciate the revolution which is going on in which coloured people want to live a free, dignified, life. If they are helped and permitted to live that kind of life I do not think Soviet Russia, or anyone else, can make them an aggressive power against us, or any other country.
  5.11 p.m.
  Mr. Beresford Craddock: Yesterday, and again today, we have been discussing history. It is a platitude, but nevertheless quite remarkable, to find how often history repeats itself. It has already repeated itself in this debate because last night I was fortunate enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye at one minute to ten o'clock. On that occasion I followed the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle). Today, I find again I have been fortunate enough in catching your eye, Sir, and following a lady Member, the hon. Member for Cannock (Miss Lee). I must say that I find it very pleasant indeed to follow these charming hon. Lady Members, but I would have found it more delightful if I could have agreed and approved wholeheartedly of the views they expressed.
  I have always taken the view, and I agreed with what the Leader of the Opposition said today, that in a debate on foreign affairs we are dealing with very great and serious issues and that it is quite wrong to try to score cheap party debating points. I think it would be quite wrong to do that, but that, I am sure, does not prevent me from making one or two comments on the speeches to which I have listened—every one—in the debate yesterday and today.
  The hon. Member for Cannock, when she talked about Indo-China and, in the tenor of other aspects of her speech, suggested that it would be far better if there were a Labour Government so that Left could speak to Left. We heard that sort of thing in the General Election of 1945, when people of the country were told that if only they put a Labour Government in power relations between this country and Soviet Russia would be those of Left speaking to Left. I remember the late Miss Ellen Wilkinson, for whom I had very great respect, saying that on a public platform in that election. But what happened in the period 1945–50

  1093
  when Left was supposed to be speaking to Left? Any fair critic must agree that the speaking of Left to Left during those years was not very successful in the world of foreign politics.
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: India?
  Mr. Craddock: The right hon. Member says, "India," but am I to understand that the Government of India is a Left-wing Government? I have been waiting for that—
  Mr. Bevan: It is very much to the Left of the Government of the hon. Member.
  Mr. Craddock: I am not at all sure—
  Mr. Bevan: Oh.
  Mr. Craddock: No. I have met Mr. Nehru and I lived in India for some years between the two wars. I looked upon him as a very high-class Right-wing Brahmin. I am interested to learn what the right hon. Member says. Surely the right hon. Member agrees that the giving of Dominion status to India has nothing to do with Left speaking to Left. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Be that as it may, I shall not pursue it.
  I do not think the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock was quite fair to the Prime Minister in what he said about Egypt and—I am not ashamed to say it —backed up by hon. Friends on this side of the House. My right hon. Friend did not say that he wanted war with Egypt. But is it not the duty of any Government to say quite clearly, without equivocation, that if British personnel, British soldiers, are there carrying out their duty and are to be shot and murdered, to a country permitting that state of affairs, "If this goes on we—the country affected—will have to take steps to stop it"? That was really the whole effect of what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said.
  I wish to make a comment on what the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker) stated yesterday afternoon. I mentioned to him that I would comment on this. He, like the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East, stated that it would be quite wrong for us, or indeed any country, to allow itself to be swayed in its attitude to other countries by ideological considerations. Indeed,
  1094
  the phrase of the hon. Member for Blackburn, East was:
  "we want to live with Communism;"
  and that our policy should be
  "live and let live."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th May, 1953; Vol. 515. c. 1004.]
  I think that was very largely what the right hon. Member for Derby, South said.
  Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I tried to say that I hoped we should all live by the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
  Mr. Craddock: I am very grateful. At Question time a few weeks ago the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) made a comment on similar lines. If I may respectfully say so, I agree. If that is so, it makes me wonder more and more why the party opposite, speaking generally, have such an astonishing attitude towards Franco Spain. I cannot see why they advocate being friendly to Soviet Russia on the one side and are quite inconsistent in their attitude towards Spain. I hope that in due course that situation will be put right.
  One further comment I wish to make in regard to the right hon. Member for Derby, South. He referred to the Prime Minister as a great expert on war and armaments. That is true, but I think he might have been generous enough, if I may say so with respect, also to comment on the great contribution over a great many years that my right hon. Friend has made in the interests of peace. There can be no doubt about it that the Prime Minister, throughout a great career, has made very substantial contributions to peace, apart from the question of his great ability and leadership in war.
  I wish to refer to something which I said before. I hope the House will not take it amiss that I refer to what I said in a previous debate on foreign affairs, in November, 1951. That was the first debate we had on foreign affairs shortly after this Administration came to power. I refer to it because both my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition mentioned the same thing in their opening remarks, namely the regrettable illness of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I regard this as a matter of very great importance, and I should like to quote from what I said in November, 1951.

  1095
  I said:
  "We are starting on a new chapter in foreign affairs, and I suggest it would not be a bad thing if for just one moment we looked at the structure of the Foreign Office, at the organisation over which my right hon. Friend presides. In his opening remarks he mentioned the tremendous burdens which he has to carry —committees, numerous telegrams, and the terrific detail that is entailed. It is a platitude to say that the Foreign Secretary, to whatever party he may belong, carries a tremendous weight of responsibility. Everyone will agree that the weight of responsibility was a major factor in the premature and much-lamented death of the late Ernest Bevin."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th November, 1951; Vol. 494, cc. 114–115.]
  I went on to make certain suggestions about what I thought might well be the future re-organisation of the Foreign Office. We are all distressed by the grievous illness from which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is suffering, and there can be no doubt that that is due in large measure to the tremendous burden which he has been carrying during the last 18 months. I respectfully hope that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will do me the honour of considering the suggestions which I made in November, 1951.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Cannock, in one passage of her speech with which I agree, said that we ought to face the world today in a spirit of realism. I could not agree more with her. If we are going to do that and make any contribution or any suggestions with regard to foreign policy, we ought to look at the world as it is today. For a few minutes I propose briefly to do that. After the 1914–18 war there was, throughout Europe, as we all know, a wave of nationalism, economic and political, and that state of affairs was the cause to a large extent of the difficulties of the period 1927 to 1931. I have never been one who stated that the mass unemployment that we had in those years was due to the then Labour Government in power. They were facing forces which no single Government could overcome.
  That nationalism was not confined to Europe. We saw signs of it in India and Burma. In the 1920s, for example, in India, the Swaraj movement was gaining influence all the time, and there were similar signs in Burma and Malaya and further East. That nationalism grew in the East in those inter-war years, and not
  1096
  unnaturally the 1939–45 war gave it a tremendous impetus. We must face the fact—and it is right that we should admit —that there is throughout the East today this tremendous nationalist movement. We could not stop it. Why should we? Surely, it is not unreasonable that a country should want to govern itself and look after its own affairs. That is its own business. Whether it may turn out to be wise is another question.
  With this steady growth of nationalism throughout the East, I have held for many years that the whole tendency in the world is to divide into two great halves. East versus West. Hon. Members may not agree with that diagnosis of the situation, but that is my own view, and it is not unnatural that with this growth of nationalism throughout the East, Soviet Russia should take advantage of the situation and cash in on it, thus trying to become the leader of that nationalist movement throughout the Far East. As we have seen, she has met with a certain amount of success.
  We have Communist China led by Russia. I am not going to speculate on what other countries might come within the Soviet ambit, but there we have that great bloc the whole time. On the West we have Western Europe, Britain and the United States, and between these two masses we have the Middle East and Africa. I believe that today this area of the Middle East and the whole Continent of Africa is of more importance than it has been for many generations, or indeed than at any time in the history of the world.
  Having given a picture of the world as I see it, the next question follows naturally. What is the policy of this country to be in the light of this situation? I agree with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he reminded us that we should stand by our friendships, and I believe that the policy of Her Majesty's Government, namely to stand by Western Europe, is the right one. Our policy rests firmly on the British Empire and the Commonwealth.
  I noted yesterday that the hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) expressed disappointment because no mention had been made on this side of the House about the Commonwealth. I hope he will be satisfied when I say that I, a humble back bencher, believe

  1097
  that one of the most important things in the world today is Britain and the British Empire and Commonwealth. We stand opposite this great mass in the East, with Western Europe and with our friends in the United States of America. I stress the United States of America despite the reported strange utterances and the peculiar posture of the Secretary of State of the United States. He seems to have assumed a peculiar posture yesterday, according to reports.
  Mr. Hector McNeil: And photographs.
  Mr. Craddock: I have not seen the photographs. Be that as it may, it is the right policy of our Government to declare our friendship and partnership with the United States of America. But when we say "partnership" let us be quite clear that it is not to be a case of the senior and the junior partners. We have to be equal partners. As we all know, the United States has tremendous economic and material strength, but I suggest that although we do not have as great an economic or material strength as the United States, we are strong and, indeed, far stronger in experience of world affairs.
  It has been my experience when engaged in business dealings with business men across the Atlantic that one of the things that our American friends appreciate is straight and frank talking. I think it right and proper to remind our friends that a partnership, a friendship, if it is real, means that we must be equal and frank one with the other.
  Looking back on the history and the attitude of Soviet Russia since 1919, I feel sceptical about the offers of peace and the movement towards a settlement of world affairs which has emanated from Soviet Russia. I approach that with some degree of caution in the light of what has happened in past years. The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said yesterday that in the conference suggested by the Prime Minister we should not bother about details; we should deal with the great issues. But surely we have to bother about details. There are so many details dotted all over the world that we cannot avoid them. It may be that the attitude of Soviet Russia is an example of the old technique of building up hopes only to dash them down again.
  1098
  That was the technique adopted by Dr. Goebbels during the last war— "Peace is just about to break in the world"—and everyone began to feel much easier. Then, on went the war. We know that psychological warfare is so important in its effect. It may be that that is the view of Russia. I do not know. Who does know what is going on in the Kremlin? No one can say what they really think. Therefore we have to face the fact that, for example, Soviet Russia might turn down the suggestion of the Prime Minister for a conference. What do we do then?
  I believe we should pay much more attention to China. I have never taken the view that China, although a Communist territory now and under a Communist Government, would always link herself up with Soviet Russia. It may be that she will break away and establish an entirely independent system. It would be in keeping with the long and traditional friendship which has existed between this country and China that if we make no headway with Soviet Russia, we should make it clear to China that when the fighting stops in Korea we are willing to do anything we can to restore that traditional friendship. I cannot see any objection to that policy. We must not forget that, despite their appalling behaviour during the last war, we are now at peace and on terms of friendship with the Japanese. From my limited experience of the two races, were I to choose between them, I would prefer China.
  I come now to the question of the Middle East and Egypt, about which a great deal has already been said. Where there is a threat to British soldiers, and indeed civilians, and where we rely on a third Power to protect our nationals, it is the duty of the Government to make it clear to that Power that if protection is not afforded, we will not stand for it and will protect our own people. I believe it necessary to adopt a strong attitude. I would not like hon. Members opposite to misunderstand what I mean by a strong attitude. I do not mean the swashbuckling imperialism of a bygone age. Surely we have the right to stand up for our own people and for the sanctity of treaties.
  I advocate a strong attitude towards General Neguib and his Government in

  1099
  Egypt, not only in connection with the Canal Zone, but also regarding the Sudan. We must see that the Sudan is not let down in the future. We have made great contributions to the Sudan and the Sudanese people, and particularly we must not let down the people of Southern Sudan. I admit that I am fearful about that situation. In my view it is absolutely necessary to make it clearly understood in Egypt that we shall stand by our obligations and the recent agreement regarding the Sudan. We shall not tolerate any departure from those terms, in the interest not of ourselves, but of the Sudanese to whom I believe we have a sacred obligation.
  As most hon. Members know, I was born in Scotland and spent most of my early life there. It is 30 years since I have lived in Scotland, and perhaps I have forgotten a little of the folklore and traditions of that great country. But during the last few days I have had the privilege of sitting in the Scottish Grand Committee during the discussions on the University of St. Andrews Bill. It is not unnatural therefore that I should recall a saying of a great Rector of St. Andrews University, Sir J. M. Barrie. He said about courage, "If courage goes, all goes."
  In this cold war I believe that the psychological approach to world forces is a very important factor. I believe the time has come when we shall have to remind the world that the people of this country are not lacking in courage. We are a tolerant, friendly, easy-going people. But if John Bull reaches the stage where he feels he is being taken advantage of he can be a very ugly customer. I think it proper to remind, not only those who appear to be our enemies but indeed our friends in the West, that this country stood up alone in 1940 and that we should not be afraid to do it again if necessary. I think the Prime Minister was right, therefore, in stressing our determination to stand up once again for what we feel is right and proper. I believe that course will commend itself to the people of this country.
  5.40 p.m.
  Mr. F. J. Bellenger: It would be discourteous to pass over the remarks of the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Beresford Craddock) in
  1100
  silence, but I have some difficulty in finding points in his speech upon which to comment without appearing to adopt a partisan attitude, which he did his best to avoid. I will merely say that his two most profound remarks were greeted with relish by the House. The first was that in which he gave a little of his autobiography, describing a pleasant time he had in Scotland. I feel sure that that would be acknowledged by the whole House as one of the more pleasant features of the debate, although entirely unconnected with foreign affairs. Indeed, at one point I felt that if my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) had been here he would have asked for the presence of the Secretary of State for Scotland to deal with the point.
  As for the second comment, I cannot answer for my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing), but I hope he will be satisfied in that he has provoked the hon. Member for Spelthorne to make a very important statement about the position of Britain and the British Empire in the world today.
  The Prime Minister's speech yesterday was, if I may so describe it, a model of peaceful persuasion and diplomatic caution. Indeed, I think he took the whole House by surprise, and not least of all his own party, by some of the things he said, and he certainly left many of us feeling a little unsatisfied in the things which he did not say. But if we are to look at his speech in its context as a contribution to the exchange of international harmony, then I welcome it and I think all hon. Members will welcome it as a change from those discordant tones to which we have had to listen for so many years in the United Nations and elsewhere.
  However much my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) kept his end up in America in answer to the Russian delegates, I feel that we need something more likely to bring positive results to the world, and although I personally enjoyed quite a lot of what I might call the fun and games which took place in America, nevertheless they are remote from what the ordinary man and woman are thinking and expecting in all parts of the world. I feel sure that the soldiers who are engaged in Korea,

  1101
  whether American soldiers or our own, are thinking in entirely different terms. They are wondering when they will be able to get home to carry on with their vocations.
  In his speech yesterday the Prime Minister was in pleasant, almost reminiscent mood. We all know that this is the time of spring, when, so we are told,
  "a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love,"
  but, in his later days, the Prime Minister has reversed the whole process; his fancy lightly turns to the glories of the past, such as Locarno, which have become very dim in the memories of those who knew and followed the events of those days.
  I could not quite follow the Prime Minister in his nostalgic desire for some kind of Locarno Treaty today and I wonder whether he himself fully realises the implication of his remarks in that connection. Locarno, like the Kellogg Pact, was to outlaw all war and was based on entirely false premises. The Locarno Treaty, which, incidentally, gave to Sir Austen Chamberlain the noble Order which the Prime Minister has had bestowed upon him recently by the Queen, was based on two fundamentals. They are in the Treaty for all to read. First, the Treaty guaranteed frontiers against aggression either by Germany, on the one hand, or by France, on the other. Secondly, the Treaty was based on the covenant of the League of Nations. Yet within a few years the Treaty had been torn up. Why? Because those frontiers, which, Locarno stated, should be guaranteed by the contracting parties, were unreal.
  When the Prime Minister talks about another Locarno I would ask him what frontiers are to be guaranteed by the contracting parties, presumably Russia, Britain, Germany and, perhaps France. Are the frontiers between Poland and Germany to be included in a new Locarno Pact guarantee? Is the map of South-Eastern Europe to remain in its present form without any alterations? Is the Iron Curtain to remain in its present position? Are we to guarantee the Iron Curtain as it stands today? Because that was the obligation under Locarno—to guarantee frontiers which had been settled by peace treaties.
  There is no peace treaty as yet between Germany and her conquerors, but to those
  1102
  hon. Members—some of my hon. Friends among them—who think that the Eastern Frontier of Germany—the Oder-Neisse line—is a frontier to be guaranteed in any new Locarno Treaty, if we take the Prime Minister literally, I would say this: some of my hon. Friends were recently in Germany and were given a clear indication by more than one party that the Oder-Neisse line is inacceptable to every German apart, perhaps, from a few Communists. No political party in Germany dare say publicly that it should be recognised as the frontier of Germany on the East. No political party would last for more than a few moments if it dared to say that.
  Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: Is this the reason why my right hon. Friend is so keen on German rearmament. Is it because he feels that no German will ever accept the Oder-Neisse line that he wants to give them arms?
  Mr. Bellenger: I do not know that I got as far as that, certainly not far enough to enable my hon. Friend to form that opinion; but I will certainly give him an answer in a moment. I was trying to show that the Oder-Neisse line is inacceptable in Germany and, therefore, could not be the basis of a new Locarno Treaty to be signed by Germany. May I remind my hon. Friend and, indeed, others who think like him, that the Social Democratic Party in Germany has gone on record as saying that it does not accept that line and will not accept it? Perhaps I may quote from the "Action Program" of that party. First of all, in the foreword by the late Kurt Schumacher, we read:
  "As early as 1945 the Social Democratic Party declared the Oder-Neisse line to be inacceptable as a frontier."
  Later last year the Social Democratic Party in its officially published programme said this:
  "The unilateral detachment of territories which belonged to Germany in 1937 has created new injustice rather than new law. The Social Democratic Party does not recognise it."
  I am giving this illustration only to show that the Locarno idea, which the Prime Minister said yesterday was very much in his mind, is totally impossible if it is to be based on the same conditions as those which were incorporated in the original Locarno Treaty.

  1103
  There is quite a lot of opinion in this House, even on this side, which is in agreement with the conciliatory portions of the Prime Minister's speech, and, judging by the applause which the right hon. Gentleman received from this side, which rather underlined the lack of it from his own side, I think we can take it that there are many parts of the Prime Minister's speech which are acceptable to us. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition stated quite clearly today not only his own views but the views of his party on a large part of the Prime Minister's speech.
  I think I can say, without fear of contradiction from my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) that the Prime Minister has correctly diagnosed the fear complex from which Russia suffers and which motivates many of her aggressive actions—because such they are—in different parts of the world. The pushing out of the Soviet boundaries westwards into Europe—and one has only to look at the map to see where those boundaries are now—are themselves all due to the fear which Russia has, particularly of Germany.
  Well might she be fearful and suspicious after 1941, but it is only necessary to say that the action which Hitler took against her in 1941 was the direct outcome of the "horse deal" between Ribbentrop and Molotov, which precipitated the Second World War. I mention these facts to remind the Prime Minister and others of the present Government that, if they are to gloss over, in the apparently easy way in which the Prime Minister did, these injustices, they will not get a Locarno undertaking, and will not even get a settlement with Russia in Europe, to which I want to confine my remarks.
  I have mentioned what I have called the "horse deal" between Russia and Germany. Why should they not change their tactics and go in for a little bit of honest dealing? When we were children, we were taught—at least, we were in Britain; I do not know whether they were in Russia—that honesty is the best policy, and, if I understood my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee) aright, what she was trying to say in world wide terms was that we should be honest with our Colonies and with the coloured races
  1104
  and get rid of colonialism. How true, and how right she was, but how much more does that apply to Russia today? No German treaty is yet in sight, and, without a settlement between Russia and Germany, and with those who were the allies of Russia in the last war, I do not believe there is any possible chance of peace in Europe. I think that the Prime Minister was right in his diagnosis that Russia does fear Germany. That is one of the reasons why she has been doing her best to stop E.D.C. and the rearmament of Germany.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East asked me a few moments ago whether I believed that it was right that Germany should be rearmed in order that she could settle her eastern frontiers one day. What a question for my hon. Friend, a member of my own party, to put to me. I certainly do not believe in the settlement of any problems by war. I never have believed it, and twice in my lifetime I have had to take part in war because of the mistakes of statesmen, and, sometimes, of hon. Gentlemen at that time on the other side of the House who may have thought in the same crude terms as those in which my hon. Friend posed his question to me. I do not believe that the rearmament of Germany is for that purpose. I believe that the rearmament of Germany is necessary to restore the balance of power, which has been tipped too far by Russia to be comfortable either for us or for Germany, which must live next door to Russia.
  If the Prime Minister's little-by-little proposals are to be taken seriously, why not let us make a start with what seems to me the easiest difficulty that can be resolved? My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, and, I think, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Minister of State who followed him, both mentioned Austria as a test case. We have, to a large extent, reached agreement on most of the substantial points between us on Austria. Why cannot that treaty be put into force? If it were signed, and the occupation troops were withdrawn from Austria, it would not weaken Russia's sense of security at all. I think it would enhance it, because it would be a signal to the whole world that Malenkov and "Pravda" mean what they say.

  1105
  There are one or two other small things that Russia might do which would enable her to get the good will of Germany, which she badly needs, because she knows that, sometime or other, Germany will be rehabilitated, and she knows and fears the effect of German forces, if not kept in leash by a complete change of outlook in Germany—a change of heart towards democracy. I am bound to say that, much as I encourage democracy wherever it can be found in Germany, one cannot overlook the fact, especially from the recent Naumann revelations, that there are still in Germany evil forces which might, if allowed to go on unchecked, provoke another world war, which would be to the detriment of Russia, just as was the 1939–45 war.
  The German people, as I know them— and I do know something about them —do not want war. The Naumann element is insignificant, as compared with the main body of German opinion. The youth of Germany, and, certainly, a large majority of the older generation in Germany, fear war just as much as Russia fears it. They have the practical evidence of the results of war every time they look at their own cities and see the devastation there. They are finished, for any foreseeable time, with war as a means of settling their frontiers or other disputes with Russia. I therefore think that we can dismiss it from our minds. If German rearmament is contained within the E.D.C. proposals or N.A.T.O., we can dismiss from our minds for many years to come the possibility of war between Germany and Russia, thereby involving the whole of the world.
  There is one other thing which we cannot really understand in this country. One can only understand it either if one is a German or if one goes to Germany, and sees there, as, for example, many of us have seen in Dusseldorf, torches burning to their prisoners of war who are still illegally detained by Russia eight years after the end of the Second World War. If Russia were able to release them, what difference would it make either to the Russian economy or to anything else in Russia? If only Russia were to release these 200,000 or 300,000 prisoners and let them come back to Germany, what a difference it might make.
  1106
  They would at once make a gesture— I will not say of good will—towards Germany, but they would create in the minds of all those families a better feeling than permeates those homes at present where hatred and bitterness are growing up because their loved ones are kept in captivity in Russia, merely because they did their duty as soldiers and fought until they were captured. These are issues which could be settled at once without any treaty and which would create in the minds of people like myself, who are distrustful of Russia's intentions, a feeling that on this occasion they are bona fide and genuine.
  I do not know whether a meeting between leading politicians would produce any practical results. Nevertheless, I would welcome it. Indeed, this afternoon my right hon. Friend suggested that such a meeting should be got on with as quickly as possible, but without any detailed agenda.
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: By whom?
  Mr. Bellenger: My hon. Friend asks by whom. In this connection, I would prefer the presence of the Foreign Secretary and I very much regret, as we all do, that he is absent from his duties at this time. I have known the right hon. Gentleman for many years now, and I believe that he is sincere in wishing to establish understanding between the nations. Indeed, before the war, he carried his convictions to the point of resignation when a large proportion of his own party were against him. In his capacity as Foreign Minister since the war he has striven for a peaceful settlement of the disputes that affect not only other nations, but ourselves and the countries with whom at the present time we are in disagreement. But the right hon. Gentleman cannot be there, and therefore, it would fall to the Prime Minister, who has taken over his duties, to discuss with these other leading politicians the possibility of a solution.
  Even though we should not perhaps get any great and immediate results from such a meeting, nevertheless an atmosphere would be created which would be beneficial to all those parts of the world which are troubled at the moment by quarrels and animosity. We are now at the cross-roads, with not a single signpost to guide us. Such a meeting might

  1107
  at least show us in which direction the roads lead. At any rate, it is just as well that leading statesmen should occasionally leave their offices and go out to see how the land lies.
  I was startled and alarmed by what the Minister of State said this afternoon about the incidents which had been taking place in Egypt recently. He said truly that we knew very little about them. He has now thought fit to disclose them to us, and I can only say that such incidents, directed against our disciplined troops in Egypt, who merely do their duty and obey orders, will not engender in this country a spirit of compromise and a willingness to come to terms with Egypt.
  I can think of nothing worse than that a soldier in uniform, who dare not shoot or take any steps to defend himself, and who is held in check by his N.C.Os. and officers, should be fired at, insulted and attacked from ambushes by those who run away and know that their own skins are safe. I hope that General Neguib, who, after all, is himself a soldier and who, as far as I know, has an excellent record in warfare, will recognise his duty as a soldier, if not as a politician or a statesman, and will stop these incidents, because, if they are not stopped, who would deny the right of the soldiers to defend themselves from these unjust and lamentable attacks?
  I wish to say one word about the U.S.A. America, as the Minister of State said in his peroration, is a powerful country with whom, if we are to survive, we must be in alliance. But such alliances must be based on certain fundamental principles. It is useless for Foreign Secretaries and other Secretaries of State to make arrangements about foreign affairs and then for Finance Ministers to find themselves treated in the way Britain was recently treated over the Chief Joseph Dam contract.
  There is such a thing as imperialism in economic, financial and industrial affairs, and it is not the slightest use America criticising Britain about its Imperialism in India if a state of affairs such as we witnessed over the tender submitted by a British company is allowed to continue. It is unfair and unjust, and it is just as well that America should know that we
  1108
  think it is unjust. We resent that sort of imperialism just as much as America was right in resenting British imperialism.
  Finally, I wish to reinforce the plea made by my right hon. Friend this afternoon, a plea which I have often put from these benches, but which has not always found popularity with some of my hon. Friends, for some co-operation between both sides of the House on such dangerous issues as foreign affairs. After all, when it comes to war, the Government and the Opposition seem to coalesce at once, although I was never invited to be a Member of the Coalition Government during the last war. Nevertheless, such a situation was accepted willingly and freely by both sides of the House in a democratic way. Why, therefore, should we not be able to co-operate in peacetime in an attempt to avoid war and to maintain peace?
  In so far as the Prime Minister's speech yesterday was a Picasso dove, as it were —or was it a pigeon?—at any rate, not to mix my metaphors, an olive branch which he tendered to the Opposition, we could well afford to grasp it. In home affairs we have quite enough about which to disagree with the present Government, and we can win elections on our differences between them and ourselves, and the worst harm that will be done to the people of this country is that both sides will be engaged in wordy warfare.
  6.9 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Walter Elliot: I am sure that the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) will have his speech keenly read by, at any rate, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, for while he may pass unnoticed criticism of his writings, his politics and even of his racing, I am sure that comments upon his painting will immediately attract his very closest attention. If we are to refer his achievements to the standard of Picasso, we must, at any rate, refer them to the earlier stages of Picasso, when his mastery of line and composition were expressed in the classical method, and not to the later stages when he moved over into the surrealist and, indeed, extra-surrealist styles at which they have now, alas, arrived.
  What the right hon. Gentleman said was of very great interest, because it seemed to me to prove that at this

  1109
  moment there is a most interesting thing happening in the House. The currents are beginning to run across the House. That is the stage which one reaches at slack water. When the tide is coming to the full, when the rising tide is flowing or an ebb tide is racing out, then the great currents run clearly. But here the tide is on the turn. It may well be that a period of great interest has arrived, particularly in foreign affairs.
  It is certainly a period in which I am sure that Front Bench speakers on either side will find great difficulty in their orations. I have a certain sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil), who is to wind up the debate from the other side of the House, because I think that he will not find it possible to do so without meeting active opposition from hon. Members on his own side, and it may be that he will find himself in the still more embarrassing position of having some wholehearted agreement from hon. Members on this side. I know from my own experience of debate that that is a most difficult position to be in.
  This House is re-thinking the problem of foreign affairs. It leads to some strange results. Yesterday, we discovered what I might describe as the Foot-Dulles axis. I never thought to find the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) in agreement with Mr. Dulles. Yet on General Neguib they were absolutely at one.
  "One of the most remarkable leaders of the modern free world …"
  said Mr. Dulles of General Neguib, and two columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the hon. Member's speech yesterday is devoted to expounding that point of view. It is quite true that the hon. Member will not find that Mr. Dulles got very much change out of General Neguib. According to "The Times"
  "The welcome given by the Egyptian Press …to Mr. Dulles … was scarcely polite."
  General Neguib, according to "The Times," was quoted as saying, after the first conference with Mr. Dulles:
  "We will not accept another party (according to some translations the word used was 'adversary'). We have enough with one."
  There are points of great difference between General Neguib and ourselves. At present, they show no signs of being resolved. It is really much better that these
  1110
  facts should be frankly faced, as they are by the most of this House.
  We are now in a position, however, where all world politics are coming under review. I have great sympathy with the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw in his emphasis on the position of Germany. After all, Europe is still one of the key points of the world and the position of Germany is still the key question in Europe. Much has been said about the rising tide of nationalism in the world. The hon. Lady the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee) said that there was no country, however small, but was not filled with a passionate and increasing desire to see itself as a nation and to gain control of its own territory. She quoted a roll of countries where that was the case—Egypt, Laos, and so on. But there is also Germany—
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Scotland.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Really, at the moment we are a United Kingdom and until somebody begins to man the frontier between Scotland and England we may say that at least that is one of the frontiers which, greatly to the advantage of the whole world, has been neutralised, so that one can cross it at any point and no policeman or Customs officer will challenge one. If that could be said of the rest of the countries of the world, how much happier we would be.
  That is certainly not true of Germany. The present comparative period of calm should be seized upon by those interested, and particularly by her eastern neighbours, to see whether some composition cannot be reached now. The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw said that there was no frontier at present that could be the subject of a Locarno Treaty. But it is also true, as he said, that the Locarno frontiers were the results of a treaty. The present lull may not last very long. It should be used to attempt to come to some composition between adversaries.
  None of us who visited Germany recently could help but be struck by the swelling strength that was becoming apparent in that country, the evidence of inordinate labour there, and the fact that her 10 million refugees have been made a source of strength and not a weakness to her today. This great flood of hands that has come in has been set to work.

  1111
  It has reinforced rather than weakened the country. At present, there is a growing consciousness of power and strength in that country; of which we and her neighbours would do well to take note before the time is too late.
  A year ago when we went to Germany and we said, "What will you give for German unity?" the German Left said, "A lot," and the German Right said, "A little." Now both sides say "Nothing. Keep off the grass." There is there a danger to the world.
  Mr. Crossman: Hear, hear.
  Lieut.-Coloael Elliot: I fully agree with the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), who was with me on that visit and who wrote most apprehensively of what he saw. There is great danger to the world in that attitude, and it is the duty of statesmen to try to reconcile it.
  I welcome, therefore, with all my heart the Prime Minister's suggestion of talks between high level heads. The heads are all, of course, prisoners of their own declarations and conscious of great injustices under which their countries have laboured. But a treaty of peace is a condoning of injustice and an abandonment of many claims that have been made. These things have to be done to bring about a treaty of peace. It is for the Soviet rulers, among others, to realise that they must put up with a great deal, if peace is to be brought back again to the world and there is to be no feeling that the world is simply marking time while we fill up the vials of wrath, while we compress the springs of action until Germany, one of the greatest fighting races that has ever existed, begins again her march to the East.
  Those of us who saw members of the General Staff in Germany saw again that resolute, objective, calm set of men who, for hundreds of years now, have formed a caste in their own country. They were sitting there with the same confident feeling that, sooner or later, the tide would float the boat off the rocks and that they would go again on their journeys. Meanwhile, they were collecting the charts and the soundings and maps for new voyages upon which, under their command, Germany, sooner or later, would embark. If that frame of mind is to be dissipated,
  1112
  it must be dissipated by statesmanship which is willing to concede as well as to insist. That will be the task of statesmen in the immediate future if it is to be done at all.
  None of us could believe, after the 1914–18 war, that after the hammering and battering that the central Powers had taken they would be ever fit for war again within the lifetime of any living men. The whole constitution of the League of Nations was based on the prospect of a six months' delay. There was no veto on war; there was merely the provision for a six months' delay. People thought that war was so horrible to the whole world that, given six months to face it, the public opinion of the world would make war impossible. We saw how rapidly, in the 'thirties, the tide flowed over those marks and submerged them. The tide is flowing again today.
  One of the features of the human race is that it is not afraid of things. I wish it were more afraid of things. It is filled with the most desperate courage. That is what makes me believe in the immortal soul. No finite being could be such a fool as the human race is unless it drew its lunacy from realms far outside those of everyday calculation. It would be impossible otherwise to conceive such an assembly of wild and crazy creatures as homo sapiens. I would call him homo robustus; I do not think he is entitled to be called sapiens. He cannot be frightened.
  The Germans who, heaven knows, had enough to frighten them in the First World War, marched out in the Second in the same spirit of a frische frolische Krieg in which the Kaisers' soldiers set off on their marches in 1914. Today, the danger is, that with 10 million refugees who have nothing to lose they start with a corps of people who are very willing to go on a venture which may indeed bring a very great and increased danger to the world.
  I am interested in, but not specially afraid of, the problems of the East. In the East men are being driven by a more terrible devil than Marx; they are being driven by Malthus, the old English clergyman who saw all these possibilities long, long ago. It is quite true that there is danger from hungry men—and the East is getting hungrier—but these hungry men grow weaker, not stronger.

  1113
  Germany is not getting hungrier. She is getting better fed. One can go there and see the rising standard of living and judge whether these are not people of whom we have every reason to be more apprehensive than of the peoples of the East.
  The peoples of the East deserve attention; they deserve help. In the last 20 years their standard of living has fallen from 2,000 to 1,700 calories, which is below the maintenance value of a ration. This may lead to misery, collapse and desperation, but it does not lead to a successful aggression. The danger lies in the strong, vigorous, well-fed Westerner—master of the arts and the engineering sciences. These are the people who can dig guns out of the ground, who can bring fertilisers out of the air, harness water falls and revitalise all the coal mines of Germany in a decade. Russia would be well advised to watch what is going on on her frontier and not to believe that she can dispose of that danger by war. I do not think it will be possible for her to do so.
  I wished to intervene only for a short time. I repeat that a period of lull has come upon the world just now. It is also a period of lull when, in two or three places, there are senior statesmen of great experience. There is the Prime Minister, whose speech yesterday was skilful enough to draw applause from the whole House and far-sighted enough to draw approval from the whole world. There is a soldier of great experience in America, Eisenhower, who has seen some of the dangers of war and who, we hope, will be able to use the enormous influence which he has in his own country —an influence far surpassing that of his party—to bring about a realistic and objective approach. There are new forces in Russia. How new they are we cannot say; nobody can look behind the Iron Curtain. We do not know whether it is a change of tactics, but it is certainly a change of personalities.
  I agree with the Leader of the Opposition when he pointed out the strange fact that "Pravda" was concentrating upon the subject of collective headship. Those of us who have seen Stalin among his subordinates have been very conscious of the fact that we were watching somebody who was under no
  1114
  limitation of any kind of collective control. He sat among those men as a collie dog sits among sheep. The sheep watch uneasily when the dog hangs its long red tongue over its jaws, watching the sheep and knowing very well, as somebody once said, that it matters little to the wolves—or to the dogs—how many sheep there may be.
  The movement in the Kremlin is an interesting change and it may be possible to take advantage of it. In doing so it should be remembered that a most unstable condition has been produced in the centre of Europe, one which will not permanently endure. As the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw said, present frontiers have been challenged by both German parties—by the Left as well as the Right—in the centre of Europe.
  Let us, then, agree with our adversary while we are in the way with time. Let us bend every effort to bring about a favourable response to these problems. But let us remember that these great moments do not endure. One is here; let us seize it while it is possible.
  6.27 p.m.
  Mr. R. H. S. Grossman: We have all enjoyed a great deal the very vivid and impressionist picture of Germany which has been presented by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot). I do not want to go into details about it, except to say that it is not sufficient to give impressions of the urgency of the problems which face us. What we must discuss is how to deal with them.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is right in saying that the Prime Minister was wise in urging four-Power talks now, because opportunities slip away. Our job now is to see what policy this country should follow. I have been thinking—as I suppose everybody else in the House has been thinking—and rethinking, about the Prime Minister's speech. There is no doubt that it made an immense impression on us yesterday. I am not sure how different the impression would be if we were to read the cold text in Paris, Cairo, Moscow or Washington. I fancy that the impression it made on us was more pleasing than it would make when read, at least in Paris and Washington.

  1115
  When I ask myself what it was that moved us in that speech, I think I would be right in answering that on this side it was the fact that it read so very differently from another famous speech —the Fulton Speech—which was the proclamation of cold war. The Fulton speech united the Prime Minister with America, but divided him from most of us on this side of the House. This speech was a proclamation of the hope of ending the cold war. It got a very bad Press in America, but it united the House of Commons. He always has his choice of those two successes.
  The other thing we liked about his speech was that it showed he was a man who was determined to have an independent British policy; that he was determined that this country, whatever its dependence on others, was going to stand up and think for itself. Some of us have been urging this policy for some months. We used to be denounced as anti-Americans for urging it, and we are glad that the whole House now agrees that an independent British policy is what we should have.
  There was one section of the Prime Minister's speech, however, which seemed to me to strike a completely discordant note. Everything else the Prime Minister said was prudent and statesmanlike, until he reached the section which dealt with General Neguib and Egypt. The Minister of State described this section as moderate in tone. Well! Well! I was amused to feel that the Prime Minister had not got over the old spirit of Omdurman. If we had to be peaceful towards the rest of the world there was one little nation against which we might wield a powerful stick and even win a victory.
  It was distasteful to me that he should be so pacific to the strong and then hector the weak. It was profoundly significant that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite should laugh at the thought that 80,000 British troops can handle the Egyptian Army. I did not laugh. It is an extremely severe situation with which we may be faced, the prospect of guerrilla warfare in Egypt. Let hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite ask themselves whether their policy does not demand the reoccupation of
  1116
  Cairo and Alexandria. It it does, if they have decided on it, let them go ahead, but if they are not prepared to reoccupy Cairo and Alexandria, then they have got to find a pacific agreement with the Egyptians. Candidly, I think the Prime Minister's statement was quite unworthy of him. It was unfair and it was in bad taste.
  Let me give an example of this unfairness. He specifically said that the Egyptian Army is being aided and trained by Nazi instructors. I have taken the trouble to make some inquiries about that. The head of the German military mission to the Egyptian Army is a certain General Fahnbacher. He was one of Rommel's assistants. Rommel's other assistant was General Speidel, who recently inspected our British installations. He, of course, is not a Nazi; but his colleague who goes to help the Egyptian Army, with the permission of the British authorities in the Western Zone of Germany, he is a Nazi. That is not worthy of the Prime Minister.
  It is very easy to laugh at the tin Egyptian dictator and to suggest he will not last long. But there are 5,000 British civilians in Cairo who are extremely alarmed, because they remember what happened in the last bonfire, when nine of them were cooked alive. They are not so cheerful about the prospect of General Neguib going, because they know what will come after General Neguib. If that régime goes there will either be the Muslim Brotherhood or there will be the Communists, or there will be sheer chaos, in which the rest of the British will be burned alive in Cairo. It is totally irresponsible to talk as though we can see an end of the Neguib régime with complete equanimity.
  I do not know whether Neguib is the beginning of a social revolution or not, but I know that in the Middle East régimes get worse, not better. When we first heard his name in Persia we talked about "Fuddy Duddy Mossadeq." Now we no longer laugh at him.
  We have been mistaken on three occasions about new developments and régimes in the Middle East. The first was in Israel. Then we had Abadan. Now it is the Suez Zone. In the first two cases we had to make a completely humiliating climb down. In Palestine

  1117
  we refused to give the Jewish people their sovereign rights, and a majority of the people in this House jeered, saying, "Go on, you Jews and see if you can stand up to 100,000 British troops." There were only a few hundred terrorists and we could not stand up to them. In Persia they took over the refinery without any terrorists at all. When shall we learn the lesson of all this?
  The Minister of State went into great detail about the causes of the breakdown in our relations with Egypt. I think I can set the story out more concisely than he did. The Egyptians say that if we are to fulfil the promise we have made at least every three years in the last 70 years to evacuate their country it means that they become the controllers of the Suez base. Otherwise there is not any real evacuation. So they say, "Of course, we will consider and consult with you whether we should have British technicians and advisers to run the base." Our reply is, "The base must be controlled by British technicians and they shall be responsible solely to the Government in London." I would remind hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that in the height of the Abadan crisis that was exactly the demand we made of the Persians. We said, "No, we cannot hand over the refinery to the Persians to nationalise. British technicians have got to run it, as no one else can."
  I warn the House that if we violate their sovereignty by making these demands on the Egyptians we shall not be able to enforce them without the occupation of the whole of Egypt. We cannot leave 80,000 men in the middle of the desert surrounded by barbed wire and without any Egyptian labour. The Egyptian labour would be withdrawn. They have already withdrawn 25,000 people, and the last 9,000 will be withdrawn very soon. Are we to leave our men for 10 years in the desert, surrounded by barbed wire, with their stores being pilfered? It looks very fine to talk about standing up to the Egyptians. It looked fine to talk about standing up to the Jews.
  The fundamental fact about us is, that this country does not in the last resort stand up for denying sovereignty to a small people. In the end we always give way. The trouble is we always give way too late—or rather too late in the Middle
  1118
  East although we hit the right time in India. I urge this House in all seriousness not to be carried away by these arguments which sound so fine now but which will not look so fine in three months' time when the consequences of them, military and political, come upon us.
  There is one serious objection to evacuation, and it is one which worries me a great deal. It is the problem of Israel. Here is a profound problem for any conscientious Englishman. Can we withdraw from the Suez Canal and hand over the base to the Egyptians without setting alight the second round of the war against Israel? If the Prime Minister had told me there was a deadlock in the negotiations with General Neguib, because he had laid down as a condition of our evacuation that it should not be taken as an opportunity to begin the second round of that war, I should have backed the Prime Minister through thick and thin, and I should have said, "Of course we cannot come out of Suez without an absolute assurance from the Egyptians that that base will not be used for offensive action against Israel."
  I may be asked, "What are words worth?" It is a question that has to be asked. Suppose we got a signature to an undertaking that there was not to be an attack on Israel. Here is a real problem. Suppose that General Neguib's Government do, as I believe they will do, an honest job of dividing up the land amongst the Egyptian people. That will not of itself raise the standard of living of the Egyptians. In 10 years' time the Egyptians will be faced with an insoluble economic problem. Then there will be a temptation to export the problem and to start on the second round of the war against the Jews. We could not possibly tolerate any withdrawal from Suez unless we took every possible precaution against that possibility. We must prevent that war. The Prime Minister himself yesterday uttered generous words about Israel. He at least is someone who has a right to say those generous things about Israel. But he must give his words reality.
  There are two ways of setting about this problem. The first is to make our evacuation of Egypt depend upon this assurance, and to say that if the Egyptians break it British and American economic aid to Egypt will be broken off. The

  1119
  Egyptians are fairly hard headed people. We should make our evacuation, and our economic and military aid conditional upon their not undertaking a foreign adventure.
  Another consideration is this. I have always had a great doubt whether such a concentration as we have in that Zone of all kinds of stores and troops is very relevant to modern strategy. I have always believed in the principle of dispersion. I do not think it is safe in a world of atomic warfare to have that huge concentration. Those who have been there must know the danger. Two atomic bombs would finish it off. Let that concentration be dispersed, and I suggest that it should be partly dispersed into the Gaza strip. It was part of Palestine, but it was occupied by the Egyptian Army. It contains 130,000 Arab refugees in a few miles of dreary sand dunes.
  If we have a small number of British troops in the Gaza strip we could be certain that the Egyptians would not go to blows with Israel. Egypt is not going to involve herself in a war with British troops. The presence of British troops in the Gaza strip and taking over the refugees and using them for the work there is the way in which we can help to solve the relationship between Israel and her neighbour. Good relations between Israel and her neighbour are not going to come about merely by talking about them. We have to convince the Arab world that we are not there solely for oil and strategy. The fundamental basis of any defence of the Middle East must be our acceptance of the principle of evacuation from the Canal Zone.
  Mr. McNeil: It is not clear whether the hon. Gentleman considers the Gaza strip to be part of Egypt or part of Palestine, and it would help me to understand his arguments if he would explain why it is not advisable to be in the Canal Zone but quite proper to be in the Gaza strip.
  Mr. Crossman: No doubt my right hon. Friend has read the Egyptian Green Book in which the question of Gaza was discussed by General Slim. The Egyptians do not like us in the Canal Zone. The Gaza strip is not part of Egypt. It is
  1120
  a bit of Palestine which they conquered and which they hold by right of conquest. I am suggesting negotiations in which we agree to move troops to the Gaza strip and to take over responsibility for the refugees there, who are a burden on the Egyptians who do not want a piece of land up there on their own. I suggest this would be a feasible line of negotiation once we have accepted the principle of evacuation from the Zone.
  I now want to deal with the question of Germany. I agreed with the Prime Minister very deeply when he said that the German issue was the essential one. But the more I read and re-read his references to Germany, the more confused I became. There was a section in which he was dealing with peacemaking with the Russians in which he talked about a "Locarno Agreement," by which, as I understood it. he meant that we should say to the Russians that we would guarantee them the Oder-Neisse line if we could get a unified Germany. Earlier I found a passage in which he appeared to give to Dr. Adenauer unlimited support for the rearmament and the integration of Western Germany into the West.
  The Prime Minister must make up his mind. There is no chance of any agreement with the Russians if the Prime Minister believes that Dr. Adenauer must sacrifice nothing whatsoever. Dr. Adenauer is a profiteer of cold war. He lives and prospers on cold war. For Adenauer the end of the cold war means that the dollars stop flowing, the Army stops being armed and there is a Socialist majority in a United Germany instead of an anti-Socialist majority in a partitioned Germany.
  We must be realistic in this House about Germany. Dr. Adenauer has done very well for his truncated piece of Germany. But there are other Germans beside Dr. Adenauer. There is a German called Ollenhauer, and yesterday he said that there could be no question of rearming Germany until one more effort had been made through four-Power talks to reach agreement. If the Prime Minister and the Government are serious in their intention, I say to them: They must say openly to the world what we all know to be true, namely, that the only conceivable chance of free elections —and I think that the Leader of the

  1121
  Opposition made this point—is if we are prepared to postpone the re-armament of Western Germany in exchange for the disarmament of Eastern Germany and free elections in a disarmed Germany.
  The Russians are not going to allow the Eastern Zone to be integrated with the Western Zone merely so that the American Army can march to the Oder. That would be unconditional surrender just as much as it would be unconditional surrender for us to allow the Russians to march to the Ruhr.
  In conclusion I should like to say a word on the other great issue which the Prime Minister raised and that is our relations with America. I think that there is no one in this House who fails to recognise the need for a real Anglo-American partnership, but a lot of us have been disturbed by a fatal tendency in the last three years. No British initiative has been possible without the prior consent of America. It was almost as though every speech that was made in Westminster had to be read in Washington before it was passed for approval. I congratulate the Prime Minister on having broken down a very bad two or three years' precedent.
  But it is no good merely breaking the precedent. We have to see what it means to have a policy independent of America. It is no good merely announcing it here and getting cheers from the House. What does independence mean? It means first of all economic independence for this country. If we are to have this sort of policy vis-à-vis America, it is no good the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer popping off to Washington to get a large number of dollars in order to make the £ convertible. There is no relationship between the purpose of that mission only a few months ago and the tenor of the speech which we heard today.
  If we are to be politically independent, we must have economic independence, and that will mean a great deal of self-sacrifice in this country, a great deal of discrimination and not being too angry with the Americans because they stop us selling our goods in the U.S.A. We must assume they will not let us export to them very freely. Moreover, the purchase of arms as an alternative to dollar aid is a deadly policy, because we find
  1122
  as a result large sections of our engineering industry dependent on American rearmament and acquiring a vested interest in the cold war. If we are economically in that position we shall not have a policy which is in favour of peace.
  In the second place, if we are to be independent of America and become a partner on equal terms we have to accept the social revolution in Asia and Africa and co-operate with it wholeheartedly. It is no good a Tory Prime Minister saying that he is going to have an independent line, when his policy in Africa adds to our military commitments day by day. How many troops shall we need to make good the Prime Minister's threats and occupy Cairo? How many for bashing down the Kikuyu? How many for holding down the Africans in a Central African Federation? To try to reaffirm white ascendancy is impossible without becoming a satellite of America. It is impossible without a gigantic armament bill for this country—which the U.S.A. must pay.
  The same is true of Asia. I was delighted to hear the Leader of the Opposition say what we all know is true, that Ho Chi Minh heads the real national movement in Indo-China. Do not let us be hypocritical about it. It is time to tell the French and the Americans that they are fighting an unjust war in Indo-China. If the French had done the right thing, Indo-China today would stand alongside Indonesia, and Burma. Ho Chi Minh and his rebels are not Communist by nature but by compulsion. They are driven to be Communists in order to get national liberation.
  If we accept the Chinese revolution we must accept the Indo-Chinese revolution and tell our friends not to waste millions of dollars on preserving a few square miles round Saigon under French protection. We are frittering away resources which should be spent on winning the support of the people, not in convincing them that we are on the side of counterrevolution. That would be a genuine fulfilment of the Prime Minister's dream. The Prime Minister wants to be a peacemaker. If this country wants to be a peacemaker it must do the necessary things. We must base our foreign policy on two Attlee principles—the liberation of democratic India and the recognition

  1123
  of Communist China—and on the realisation that if we want economic independence it will be at the cost of tightening our belts. If we do all that the Prime Minister's phrases and dreams may conceivably achieve a concrete reality.
  6.53 p.m.
  Mr. C. J. M. Alport: I have sometimes watched beagling, and my recollection of it reminds me always of the sort of exercise that takes place when the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) speaks in this House. He started off today in one direction from the Suez Canal and followed his course with increasing vigour in a complete circle until he arrived back very nearly at the point of starting, say, in the Gaza Strip. It has always been precisely his same line of argument. He always includes in his argument a great many things with which I could agree, but he always ends it with a conclusion that I could not agree with in any circumstances at all.
  I should like to try to put a point of view, but I realise quite clearly the arguments against it. I want to put a point of view which, also, I realise from the beginning, does not accord with the sentiments of many hon. Members in this House. It is not a point of view that is unfamiliar in this debate, but I think it important that we should continue to press a particular aspect of our foreign policy at the present time because, in spite of the immense admiration that I have for the Prime Minister's speech, there was one point in it that seemed to me to be weak.
  It is once again the question of Egypt. I cannot believe that the circumstances in which we find ourselves on the Canal are a sign of strength, so far as the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth are concerned. I feel that they must be rather a factor of weakness in our security and in our future. I cannot believe that it is right that at the present time, as the hon. Member for Coventry, East has said, we should still have £250 million worth of military stores concentrated in that area, which is not only undoubtedly vulnerable in war, but is a continuing liability in peacetime. I cannot believe that our situation there is satisfactory, when we are not in occupation of territory over which we have sovereignty and which we have said on
  1124
  many occasions since the 1880s we intend to leave at a not distant date.
  I cannot believe that a military situation, quite apart from the political aspect, which puts us in a position of being vulnerable to the guerilla warfare and the skirmishing banditry of a country like Egypt, or of any of the other Arab countries that may join with Egypt in a campaign against the British position on the Suez Canal, can provide us with the sort of security which is claimed for our position in the Suez Canal, so far as the Commonwealth is concerned.
  We have said and have argued that we stand on the Suez Canal because it is in the interests of the nations of the Western world that we should be there. We have called it a responsibility which we hold on behalf of America, France, Turkey and the other nations that are concerned with security in that part of the world. If that is the case, those nations must be made to face up to the prospect of having to share that burden. I cannot believe that we are in a sound position, from a military or political point of view, in trying to maintain this burden entirely off our own bat.
  The United States has made immense mistakes in Middle East policy since 1945. One of the reasons why there is in that part of the world a sense of insecurity at present is largely because of the failure to bring together American and British policies in the Middle East. Never was there a better example of that failure than the events in the last few hours: Mr. Dulles's visit to Cairo and my right hon. Friend's speech here in the House of Commons.
  It is high time that those who are concerned with security in that part of the world and who are pledged, like us, to the maintenance of the integrity of Israel, should be faced with their responsibilities in this matter. There are alternative bases in the Middle East which would fulfil the needs of the British Commonwealth far better than the one in the Suez Canal. What are the alternatives? I should like to ask the Minister who is to reply to the debate whether the alternatives have been considered. The hon. Member for Coventry, East mentioned one, the Gaza Strip. There are other alternatives. There is Cyprus. If there were an international base somewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean—it

  1125
  is not for me to say where—all that we will require for the exercise of our own responsibilities, speaking of the United Kingdom alone not as partners to a general defence plan for the whole of the Mediterranean, would be fulfilled by a forward base in Cyprus and a rear base in East Africa.
  There are other alternatives. I think it would be possible—and here I go a long way along the road with the hon. Member for Coventry, East—to establish something in the Aquaba area which would give a back door to the Eastern Mediterranean, and, if necessary, could be used in conjunction with a base in Israel. We cannot spend all our time trying to hold the balance between Israel and Egypt. Nor, if we are forced out of the Suez Canal by the Egyptians, be influenced by the fact that the only alternative is unacceptable to the Egyptians.
  If Haifa were the international base for the Eastern Mediterranean, it would do two things. It would provide us—not only Britain, but all the countries linked to us—with something which was secure. It would be of the greatest value to the Israelis to have in their territory military forces committed, at any rate in the case of some of the countries concerned, to the maintenance of the integrity of Israel. I hold no particular prejudice in favour of Israel or in favour of the Arab countries. All I am trying to do is to look at the problem with the interest of the United Kingdom in mind.
  I am certain that the Prime Minister made the key point in this matter when he said that it was costing us £50 million a year or thereabouts to remain in the Canal Zone and that we had 80,000 troops tied up there, which deprived us of the whole of our strategic reserve. We must look upon the matter from the point of view of British interests. It is said— and it is perfectly true—that we have been the subject of derision and abuse by General Neguib and by many other Egyptian spokesmen during the last few months. But it is not only during the last few months; it is during the last few years. Indeed, one might say that it was during the last few decades.
  Is the position getting any better as the result of the passage of time, or is it getting worse? My view is that the situation on the whole is deteriorating rapidly
  1126
  and that we shall find it more difficult to make a decision in two months' or two years' time than it would be now, just as it is far more difficult now to make a decision than it would have been in 1946 when the real decision should have been made. I remember very well that those who were concerned with the redeployment of our troops in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Indian Ocean zones— I was concerned in only a very small way —were quite clear that after the end of the war in 1945 there would be a redistribution of our resources in the Eastern Mediterranean and in the Middle East which would involve pulling out of the Suez Canal Zone to some other areas.
  I have said before that it is one of the great mysteries of politics why the Mackinnon Road project was not completed. If the supplies which are now in the Canal Zone were in East Africa they would be secure, for they would be on territory over which we have sovereignty, and it would have been of immense value if we had developed that base. But for some reason which no one has ever explained publicly there was a change of policy at that time. I think the reason was that the situation in the Middle East and in the Canal Zone hardened suddenly and, therefore, the previous Government said, "If we show signs of moving out now we shall be showing signs of weakening our position, and, therefore, we must remain." I do not think that as a result of that decision we have strengthened our position at all. I believe that we have weakened it greatly.
  When our troops are being subjected to murderous attack in the Canal Zone, when we know that there are 80,000 of them living there in conditions which are deplorable, to say the least of it, and when this country is being abused by someone who has still to establish and justify himself as a leader of his country as far as other nations are concerned, it is very hard to put a point of view as I have tried to put it, because all the sentiment in our country and the vast proportion of the sentiment in the House is to stand up to the Egyptians and not in any way to give the impression that we are pulling out, scuttling, or whatever the technical term may be. We have many examples in our history of occasions when we have had to adjust our policy to meet new conditions.

  1127
  I am sure that my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvin-grove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) is right. We are at a moment of slack tide. The tide is moving in a different direction and we cannot say which, but it is a time when we must take our courage in our hands and make the redisposition of our resources fit the new pattern of world power which has come into being and which will develop in the years ahead.
  If we can do that successfully, I see for this country years of authority and influence ahead. What I fear is that by sticking to old positions which have lost their justification in the international sphere we may, in the end, exhaust our resources, which we must realise are limited, in order to try to do things which are no longer in the interests of the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth. In any foreign policy, those interests should always be paramount.
  7.6 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Mayhew: The whole House has been interested in the most thoughtful and courageous speech by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Alport). My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) appears at long last to have made a convert on the Egyptian question. How much that is a good thing or a bad thing, however, I am not proposing to deal with in my speech, because I have so many other things that I wish to say.
  There were a number of points in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East with which I warmly agree, but I did not agree with his general assessment of the Prime Minister's speech yesterday. I felt that it received, and deserved to receive, warm approval on both sides of the House; I felt that yesterday, and I still feel it today. The Minister of State this afternoon also made a clear and constructive speech which deserves general support. Indeed, the words of both the Prime Minister and the Minister of State seemed to have received even warmer support on many occasions from this side of the House than from the other. It was a heartening experience.
  When the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove was saying how the tides were passing from one side to the other in the House in this
  1128
  debate, I seemed to feel the flood coming this way rather than going towards the other side of the House, leaving hon. Members opposite with a somewhat stranded and washed-out appearance. Perhaps it was because the Prime Minister was able to take a somewhat more hopeful view of our relations with Soviet Russia. If we look back some years we see in this an indication of some of the policies and attitudes initiated by the two Labour Governments after the war. I am not at all sure that we cannot look back on the policy and attitude towards the Soviet Union initiated by Mr. Ernest Bevin with a great deal more satisfaction today than we could perhaps earlier on when things did not look so clear.
  Perhaps the best feature of the Prime Minister's speech was the honest effort it contained to look at the facts of the world situation from the Soviet point of view, in relation to Germany and one or two other questions. It is not an easy thing to understand the thinking of the Russians on foreign affairs. Two processes are involved. One must look at the facts from a different part of the globe, and one also has to think about those facts with a different kind of thinking. That is profoundly difficult, even for the Prime Minister, who has had the advantage of personal contacts with the Soviet leaders.
  But surely the more difficult it is to understand their thinking the more important it is to make every effort to do so. It is not sentimental to think that an exchange of views, even of a general kind, at the highest level between the three Powers could have a really constructive effect at the present time when the situation in the world is much more fluid than it has been for many years and when the heads of State, with one exception, are new to their jobs and new to each other. This surely is a time when we can reasonably expect an exchange of views to help.
  Unfortunately though, in the speech by the Prime Minister his one great blind spot emerged, and that is his attitude towards the so-called national liberation movements, the revolt against Western influence of the peoples in Asia, the Middle East and Africa. This, after all, is the great problem in the years ahead. Lenin some 30 years ago in his writings listed the three great contradictions, as he

  1129
  described them, in the so-called capitalist world, contradictions that had to be exploited by Soviet Communism. The first was the classical contradiction between workers and employers in the capitalist countries, the second, the contradiction of one capitalist country in rivalry with another for raw materials and markets, the third was between the metropolitan countries and the Colonial peoples. Those are the three great contradictions which Lenin laid down as the basis for Soviet strife for power.
  Looking back 30 years, we can see that Soviet Communism has lamentably failed in the first two cases. The degree of tension and class strife between worker and employer in the developed coountries is far less than when Lenin wrote. Similarly, the degree of rivalry between the capitalist coountries is a great deal less than for many decades past. The last contradiction seems to me to give Soviet Communism its final and most promising chance of world power. I note that despite all the changes which have been reported from the Soviet Union, it has been declared officially in "Pravda" that there is no change on this point.
  What is the Government doing about this? The only reference to this whole subject in the speech of the Prime Minister was a brief and rather cursory reference to Indo-China, which showed, I think, a misunderstanding of the fundamentals of the situation there, as many of my hon. Friends pointed out. It is not enough to say about Indo-China that the French should have started a Shinwell system of two years' conscription and that would have saved them from their troubles. Plainly that is not true, especially if we assume, as the Prime Minister assumes, that this is not just a Soviet-inspired movement, but has a great deal of local, spontaneous independence about it.
  Those two things obviously are inconsistent. If it is a Soviet inspired movement then it may be that violence is enough to suppress it. If it is not. a diplomatic and political approach is re-quired. I think there is a tremendous need for careful diagnosis in each of these cases as to the kind of movement we are dealing with. What is a genuine nationalist movement? The Labour Government had to make up their minds on more than one occasion on these
  1130
  points. I think with unerring judgment we understood the importance of the Indian and Pakistan movements for independence, and correctly diagnosed that in Malaya what was pretending to be a nationalist movement of liberation was a group of terrorists and gangsters.
  There are all kinds of degrees of control of these movements by the Soviet Union. There is, for instance, Rumania, where the Soviet Union imposed a group of gangsters on the country and called it a national liberation movement, and at the other end of the scale there is the Government of China which won power getting less aid by far from Russia than their opponents got from America. That represented a national and genuinely revolutionary force. There is a difference of policy and attitude needed towards each national liberation movement, depending on the diagnosis one makes.
  When the Prime Minister was speaking of Indo-China and making his criticism of the unhappy French in their unfortunate position, I kept wondering whether we are in a position to throw stones. How would we have fared in Kenya had that country had a common border with China? Are we quite sure in our own mind that we would be able to handle that matter better than the French? The French had no colour bar in Indo-China. I am not at all sure that we are in a position to criticise the French. They have made mistakes, but so have we in the way we have handled our problems in Africa.
  I noticed with regret the omission of all reference to Africa in the Prime Minister's speech. It is time these things were considered as a matter of foreign policy and not merely departmentally by the Colonial Office. If the present trends go on, our problems in Asia and in Europe will be dwarfed by our problems in Africa before very long. And they will be foreign policy problems and not just Colonial problems. My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East made reference to our military commitments in relation to our policies in Africa. We also see how these problems cripple and weaken the Western world to an increasing extent. At the United Nations we find the free world often divided between white people and coloured people on racial and colonial questions relating to Africa.

  1131
  What is it that holds the Arab-Asian bloc together? This is an important and increasing influential diplomatic alignment. What holds them together more than anything else is an uncompromising hostility to anything that looks like colonialism or racial discrimination. Inasmuch as we cannot solve our problems in Africa, they will become more and more important and will greatly weaken and divide the various Governments in the free world. If we cannot solve this racial problem, it will lose the West confidence in its own ideals, and it will also lose prestige for the democracy for which the West claims to stand.
  This is a matter of foreign policy, and in the past I believe it has been a great mistake to try to draw a careful distinction between colonial matters on the one hand and foreign policy questions on the other. I believe that the great weakness of the speech of the Prime Minister made yesterday was that it failed to take into account these very great colonial questions.
  It is true that there appears to be little actual Communist organisation and propaganda in Africa today. I was there for a couple of months towards the end of last year, but I found little definite evidence of Communism though I looked for it. There is no Communism behind the opposition to Federation; and there is no Communism behind Mau Mau in Kenya, even though it is described by "Pravda" and by Moscow radio as a national liberation movement.
  There is no concerted proof of any Chinese Communism in Africa, and yet when one looks at the circumstances and sees the bitter conflicts developing between worker and employer, between white and black, between two different cultures and between rich and poor, we can see an absolutely classical situation for exploitation by Soviet Communism throughout South Africa, Central Africa and East Africa. All that is lacking is a common frontier with either Russia or China to see developing the kind of situation which we see so tragically in Eastern Europe and in Asia in Indo-China today.
  I feel it is time that this African question was dealt with at the highest level in the context of world affairs. Mistakes have been made because in the past we
  1132
  have had false diagnosis from people dealing with the subject, who declare that they are not the subject of any worldwide cause, but are due to local conditions. The Kenya troubles are due to some characteristics of the Kikuyu, the South African problem to the policies of Dr. Malan, the rioting in North Africa to Communist infiltration. But there are general problems in Africa which have got to be solved and to be considered in the widest context, if we are going to solve these other problems.
  I wish I could feel that the Prime Minister gave this matter the attention it really deserves. It is getting worse, and we have not seen it at its worst by any means. The Prime Minister was wrong about India, and I am afraid he is going to be wrong about Africa. That is a far more difficult problem than India ever was. There is the whole problem of the European settlers with their just rights. They have built up these countries and have made a great contribution to the lands in which they live. It is an infinitely complicated factor, and it is not helped by the backwardness of the Africans themselves, who are far more backward than the Indians at the time of independence.
  But if that is true, surely the writing is on the wall to this extent: that it is certain that within one decade or two, or possibly three, the substance of political power will be held by the Africans in those countries by one means or another. That seems to me an inevitable conclusion from all we see today. Our duty is to ensure that this transition happens in a peaceful and constructive way, with the least possible damaging results to the international scene.
  For instance, we all know the difficulties of abolishing the colour bar. I would not deny that hon. Members opposite sincerely want to get rid of it, but I have received no impression that they have the ruthless and passionate desire for action on this subject which it needs. Until they get that, and until we can also get the feeling that we are with, and in favour of, the aspirations of the Africans, we shall not solve these problems.
  It is worth asking ourselves, why is it when we go round Africa today and talk to the natural leaders of the African

  1133
  people, the chiefs or the educated Africans, why the names of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) are respected almost to the point of reverence? Because they are; they have a tremendous reputation out there. It is not because they are now in Opposition and making the kind of speeches which the Africans like. These are reputations which they gained after six long, hard years of Colonial administration.
  It is a great pity that the Prime Minister and the Colonial Secretary have not the same reputation. I want them to understand the urgency of this problem more, to deal with it in a wider context as a matter of foreign policy. It is a great pity that we cannot give the same support to the Government over Africa as we are prepared, in the light of the speech of the Prime Minister, to give to substantial parts of the policy he has outlined. It remains as a very good reason for replacing this Government—the fact that we would like to see my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition bringing again the same statesmanship to bear in Africa as he brought to bear on Asian problems when we were in office.
  7.23 p.m.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: I find myself very much in agreement with what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) has just said, especially as there are currents and tides flowing which are difficult to assess at present. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) was talking it occurred to me that while there may be slack water now it will prove to be a most dangerous period if we do not take soundings, because otherwise we shall go aground.
  We are running a serious risk at the moment and I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Alport) said. I have never understood how it came about that MacKinnon Road was given up. I am certain that in modern warfare it is a mistake to concentrate too much on one enormous base. I am sure I must have misunderstood hon. Gentlemen, because I do not think they can have meant that, if British troops are being subjected to a kind of guerilla warfare, they should remain unresponsive.
  1134
  We must recognise the tremendous trials they are suffering. Having served in Egypt for many years under far better conditions than British troops are having now I say that to be stationed in the Canal Zone is to be in the worst station that any British troops can be in. To say that those troops can protect that enormous base at Tel el-Kebir is complete nonsense, because the real object of the base is to have local labour to work it, and we cannot obtain that.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State has given some figures of the value of our stores. Those are of immense importance to the taxpayer and I do not think these are the days when we can throw away British assets of that kind which could be removed. The question is where and how can we move them? There are few places to go. I am not enamoured of the "Gaza Line." People forget that after the First World War we could have had the whole of the Sinai Peninsula down to Aquaba, which would have been a far better base and could have been developed without much trouble.
  The vast accumulation of stores cannot be physically moved now except over a long period and we ought to support those who are carrying on the negotiations on three grounds. First, we want to get out of the place. We want to reestablish the base, I hope dispersed at suitable points. Yet, physically, we have not got the labour to move those stores because the Egyptians have withdrawn it. Who can recognise that better than the present Egyptian leaders?
  Secondly, there is the great importance of having our strategic reserve where it ought to be instead of at a place where it is useless for any purpose, because it will be tied down there as a result of the hostility of the local population. Then we have other "packets" dotted about all over the place. I mention this because those of us who have been to Vienna and Austria—
  Mr. John Strachey: If the hon. Gentleman is leaving the question of Egypt, would he give way for a moment? The only reason why the MacKinnon Road project was abandoned was because military opinion had it in view that if we were leaving the Canal Zone—and in so far as we did—the United Kingdom was a more convenient

  1135
  and more accessible rear base than the MacKinnon Road. Would the hon. Gentleman not think that, apart from advance stations such as Cyprus, the United Kingdom is the best main base for the Middle East?
  Sir R. Glyn: I dare say that with modern communications that is true, but we are in the position now that we cannot transfer the stores in the Canal Zone at a quicker rate than 1,000 tons a week, and that is good going. There are enormous accumulations of material there, some of it of great value. I am sure the Opposition would agree that it is not right for the Government of this country lightly to throw away assets which are essential for the servicing of our troops.
  Now may I turn to Austria. If the Deputies are to meet, there is one curious feature about the Austrian position. I remember going to Austria as a boy. Some of us forget that in the long period of peace before the 1914 war people had got into a regular groove of trade and connections. I remember going to Trieste, which was Austrian and part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Suddenly, after the First World War, that empire crumbled and now we find this natural hostility between Yugoslavia and Italy over Trieste.
  Yet Trieste was once Austrian and with the large city of Vienna, having a kind of back-garden of a country with no exit to the sea, and within 45 miles— which is all it is—from Klagenfurt down to Trieste, with all the communications that the Austrians had made. It was the natural outflow of central Europe with all the Danube connections into the sea. I do beg that somebody will take into account the possibility—I put it no higher—that an attempt should be made to solve the vexed question of Trieste at the same time as the Austrian negotiations. I believe that there might be something useful in that. We cannot expect Austria to settle down without any sea communications or without the trade that is so necessary.
  After all, the biblical way of settling a dispute between two people is to give what is disputed to a third person. It may be that in Trieste they would be
  1136
  happy to get back to the old associations. If that could be done, I believe that the Russian representatives might be willing to try it and, at the same time, to open up the navigation of the Danube, which is of vital importance to all those other Balkan countries.
  I think we have reached a stage in our affairs in which, I agree, we have to give up thinking in separate compartments of the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office. We are living in a period of great tides of human thought. When I was young I remembered Dr. Livingstone and Mr. Stanley—I remember meeting Mr. Stanley—and I saw a number of pictures of Dr. Livingstone in the newspapers. That was in my lifetime, when we spoke of "darkest Africa." Now things are happening which far more readily represent darkest Africa, going back to the primitive condition of the people. We are trustees of those people and must not be dictated to.
  I wonder how many hon. Members in the House realise that we spent £1 million of the taxpayers' money in building a University College at Ibadan, in Nigeria? Will that help them? I hope it will. How much have we done to help the African to become a technical tradesman? During the war they were highly efficient; they became gunners and worked radar. I think we should devote our attention far more to bringing them along without restrictions and enabling them to use modern tools and machinery. That is our task, to enable them to become more efficient.
  I think the "political" atmosphere is not one which helps the Africans. We have to treat them as men we want to make more efficient in working then-land, feeding their people and getting rid of the sort of things they have adopted through ignorance and through no one helping them. Our task is to remain friends with those we have done our best to help. The task of this House is to recognise that these tides are flowing, as my right hon. and gallant Friend said. Let us hope that the House of Commons may lead this country and, in leading this country, direct Britain along that path which, I believe, is still to be trodden by this nation, to help the backward peoples and give confidence to others.
  7.33 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Irvine: The hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) has spoken in this House this evening, as he often does, for hon. Members on both sides of the House on the subjects we have been discussing. The debate has not followed party lines. There have been, what the hon. Baronet spoke of in another connection, cross currents and tides flowing in political opinions in this House.
  Nonetheless, I think it fair and relevant to point out that what the hon. Baronet has indicated to be his attitude towards Egypt is very different from what the Prime Minister indicated was his attitude towards Egypt. The hon. Baronet, when he was emphasising the importance, which we on this side of the House admit, of retaining as much of our assets as we can by negotiation, made use of the expression, "We want to get out of the place." That shows a quite different outlook on this matter from any which was indicated by the Prime Minister. I entirely agree that everything should be done in the course of the negotiations to see that the British taxpayer does not suffer unnecessary loss. In that connection, I wish to say how much I agree with the hon. Baronet in what he said about the admittedly serious trials through which British troops are going now in the Canal Zone. That is recognised by hon. Members on all sides of the House.
  I think this has been a most interesting debate for the reason I have suggested— that it has shown a shifting of opinion upon many very important matters which we have been discussing from time to time in this House for a long time. We are confronted by what really is a rather remarkable fact, having regard to the bitterness of many past controversies, when suddenly, to take the matter of the truce talks as a case in point, we find that the treatment by the Prime Minister of the subject has proved to be very acceptable to this side of the House. It is an interesting and remarkable fact that that should be so. No doubt it has a certain significance that it should be possible for an hon. Member like myself, who is sometimes regarded—in the lingo used in this connection—as rather to the Left in his party, to say so, and to say so with deep conviction.
  1138
  At Question time in the House of Commons we have noticed again and again the helpful and encouraging inflection of the voice of the Prime Minister as he has dealt with Questions about the truce talks. I have often wished that that inflection could get as wide publicity and be conveyed as clearly to peoples overseas as no doubt his written words are. I take the view that it was a most welcome thing for hon. Members on this side of the House when they heard that the Government were taking the initiative—and I think the Government deserve credit for taking the initiative—in pressing the view within the United Nations that it would be entirely acceptable if either India or Pakistan were to be the neutral Power to have the responsibility for supervising the repatriation of prisoners.
  That was very good news. It was received by us as admirable news. A foolish and reactionary state of mind would have been quite capable of insisting on the necessity of Switzerland or Sweden, or some other highly respected and distinguished European Power, playing that role. It came as a great relief and satisfaction to us to hear that the Government took the initiative in making clear their view that, if it were so desired, India or Pakistan should be the neutral Power.
  I speak of these things because I think the most interesting feature of the present situation is the extent of agreement which exists in this House on the truce talks. I think, also, that the Government deserve credit for not having allowed themselves to be distracted more in their treatment of the truce talks by what has occurred in Laos. They deserve credit for that. For my part, I felt satisfied upon the evidence that the military operations taking place in Laos had been prepared many months ago. In other words, they seemed to me not to provide any evidence that the apparent change of attitude and policy in the Kremlin was in any way vitiated or diminished by what was happening in Indo-China.
  I think, also, that what is occurring in Laos and the movement towards Siam is probably not unconnected with the presence of Chinese Nationalist troops in Burma. Be all these matters as they may, it is a matter of satisfaction to hon. Members, certainly on this side of the House, that the Government, in their treatment

  1139
  of the Korean problem, did not allow themselves to be distracted into further argument, contention and difference over what is occurring in Laos, important though that is.
  The Prime Minister, moreover, has acted absolutely correctly in recognising that the vital matters of principle with which we have been concerned in our intervention in Korea have providentially and as a result of our efforts, been decided in favour of the United Nations. We have established that in the post-war world an act of aggression meets with collective resistance. That is successfully established, and it is a matter of enormously important historic significance.
  Another important matter of principle has been decided in our favour. It has been decided that there shall be no forcible repatriation of prisoners. The Prime Minister deserves every credit for drawing the distinction between these two matters of principle to which I have referred and the secondary matters of method and detail, about which, I feel, without the pressure brought to bear perhaps by the British Government, the American negotiators might be inclined to make much heavier weather. The question of the length of time during which prisoners, whose repatriation is under question, shall be detained, where and in what circumstances—all those are matters of detail and of method which the Prime Minister has recognised are entirely different from the matters of principle which, as I say, are already determined in our favour.
  Having said that, and having spoken about Government policy in favourable terms, I none the less think it necessary to indicate the one anxiety and the one doubt that minds like my own still have. I am a little anxious—I am not sure how far this anxiety is shared on this side of the House—lest the Prime Minister, in his admirable treatment of the Korean problem, is really all the time more motivated by strategical and logistic considerations than I would wish. I do not want, having praised, now to take anything back. On the other hand, I feel I must express that anxiety.
  The Prime Minister has always said— and, of course, from the purely military and strategic angle he has always, no
  1140
  doubt, been right—that for the purpose of resisting Soviet expansion it is very undesirable that the United Nations, the United States and the Commonwealth, should have great forces tied up in the Far East. That is so, I have no doubt, from the strategical and military point of view. My anxiety is lest that is, perhaps more than I would wish, a governing consideration in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. I am not saying that there is any evidence that that is so. I am only saying that that anxiety exists.
  Is there any, reason to hope or think that he would show an equivalent reasonableness in his treatment of the situation in Europe? That is the anxiety. What he had to say upon Germany did not dispel that anxiety. It was, I thought, a far less satisfactory part of his speech. It is true that he adumbrated the idea of a Locarno for Russia and Germany, and I thought it was admirable that that should be mooted. It cannot now be said of the right hon. Gentleman that he insists upon treating the Soviet Union as an outcast after he has made a suggestion of that kind; and for the rulers of the Kremlin to read and hear that the British Prime Minister is ready to think in terms of international guarantees and alliances embracing the Soviet Union is, I think, a matter for considerable satisfaction.
  It is true also that the Prime Minister spoke in what I thought was very appropriate language about the changes which have taken place in the outlook of the Kremlin. It constantly happens that when signs of changes of outlook appear among the Russian leaders we are told, "Oh, their whole purpose and design is to divide the West." Of course, the logic of that kind of outlook is that no kind of response is ever to be made to any kind of change in Soviet behaviour at all, and one goes straight forward to the preparation of a hot war. The Prime Minister has avoided that error.
  Yet what disturbed me was that he appeared to insist upon proceeding at the same rate as heretofore upon the incorporation of West Germany in a defence system for Western Europe. That was an implication which seemed to me to arise from what he had to say about the proposed visit of Dr. Adenauer and the policy of Dr. Adenauer. I think that there is an inconsistency in that point in

  1141
  the Prime Minister's policy, because what is the value of adumbrating a Locarno guarantee for a State about whose creation he has no proposal to make, for whose boundaries he has got no kind of acceptable definition to offer, and the essential condition of whose existence he has not laid down? It seems to me to be a fallacy lying rather at the heart of what in many respects was a famous and remarkable speech of the Prime Minister.
  I would ask the Prime Minister, as I would ask the Government to realise that there are many people in this country who believe that the best, the most appropriate and most propitious response to changes which are apparent in Soviet outlook and policy would be a modification of the rate of the incorporation of Germany into a Western defence system. That has always been our view. It was the view which we expressed at the time of the debate upon the ratification of the Conventions. We said, "Why hurry it up now? Why do it now?"
  The reason we did not want to hasten ratification by this country, and the reason why we were glad enough to see France and Germany delay ratification, was that we hoped that during the delay there might be a revived prospect of effective four-Power talks. We wanted to postpone ratification because there was just a possibility that the kind of thing might happen which has, in fact, happened— namely, that there might be a change of outlook and of attitude among the Soviet rulers. That is exactly what has occurred.
  The logic of our case is that, that having occurred, we should make it clear that we would offer, as an effective response to the change in the Soviet opinion and behaviour, a modification of the rate of incorporating Germany into the western system. It will not suit Dr. Adenauer. It will not suit large sections of the German people. The first objective of the German people is the recovery of the lost provinces, and the best prospect for them of the recovery of the lost provinces is for a fearful conflict to break out between the Soviet Union and the West. We are not going to find a satisfactory solution, vis-à-vis Russia and ourselves, to the German problem which is, at the same time, satisfactory to the Germans. It is not going to be done. But if the Prime
  1142
  Minister had offered that kind of response, had indicated that kind of readiness in the light of this change in Soviet policy, we would have welcomed that as much as we welcomed many of the things he did say.
  The greatest need is for the voice of Britain to be heard independently and distinctly. One of the most remarkable features of this debate is the extent to which a general recognition of the desirability of what has been evident on both sides of the House. The Prime Minister spoke in terms which, plainly, had not been referred to anyone in Washington beforehand, and his observations were the more welcome for that. The suggestion that differences of emphasis and opinion between ourselves and the United States must do the West harm in our approaches to Russia seems to me to be entirely mistaken.
  We wish to avoid the soulless unanimity, the monolithic construction, which exists on the other side of the Iron Curtain, and about which we have rightly been critical. How sad are the consequences when it is decided to sacrifice all, or nearly all, to keeping in step with the Americans. When the Prime Minister made that very unfortunate remark the other day in his failure to reproach the offer of bribes to Communist airmen, when he said that it is better to be bribed than to be killed, that was not the Prime Minister speaking at all. We could hardly recognise his voice. It was certainly not the Prime Minister we have known. It was the Prime Minister trying desperately to keep in step with America and with General Harrison. That is a very uncomfortable spectacle at the best of times. It is far better, as I say, that sense and sentiment should not be sacrificed to a soulless unanimity between ourselves and the United States.
  The great strength we have in the West, the strength which will enable us to prevail if any conflict arises, is just that freedom of thought and speech and utterance in our system which does not exist on the other side of the Iron Curtain. It is entirely contrary to the whole spirit and essence of what is meritorious in our system to put such a high price upon unanimity as to make it impossible, or at the best very rare, for any difference of emphasis even to be permitted to be

  1143
  shown between British and American opinion.
  That was one of the features of the Prime Minister's speech which was most welcome. We want to have British economic independence of the United States as the necessary basis of an effective and independent British foreign policy. Although for a long time to come it will be necessary for the United Nations in negotiation with the East to speak with one voice at the conference table, that is not the same thing as saying that beforehand they should not, overtly and openly and without inhibition, publicly reveal such differences of emphasis and opinion as exist between them. That will not do any harm. It will do a great deal of good.
  For too long we have been told that in foreign affairs debates to utter a divergent view was dangerous because of the consequences it might have upon Anglo-American unity. What a lot of nonsense it was, and what a lot of nonsense it is now revealed to be. And how strange that one of the most significant breaches to be driven into that outlook should have been made by a Conservative Prime Minister, in utterances which, for the most part, were highly welcomed by hon. Members on this side of the House.
  7.55 p.m.
  Sir Robert Cary: As this debate is drawing to its close and there is little speaking time left, at least for hon. Members on the back benches, perhaps my first duty is to be commendably brief. I am sure the hon. Member for Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) will forgive me if I do not follow him into some of the points he raised, except to say how much I welcomed the praises he has uttered of the Prime Minister's speech.
  Perhaps the most likeable thing about this debate is that we have heard the House of Commons again talking with a united voice about this great problem of foreign policy. It is to be hoped that from now on, while there may be a divergence of opinion between the two sides on particular items, nevertheless the House may go forward into international councils speaking with a united and collective voice.
  1144
  It must have been enheartening and a comfort to the Prime Minister when this morning he saw the immense welcome given to the speech he made yesterday. It was a speech which will bring comfort to millions of people throughout the world. It must surely be the true answer to the question which President Eisenhower was said to have put to the Prune Minister when he was on holiday in America in the winter. The President is said to have asked the Prime Minister if the time had come for him to retire. The Prime Minister is reported to have answered, "Retire? Why, Sir, I may have my greatest service to render to my country yet." The Prime Minister, standing at that Box again, and speaking in his statesmanlike and wise fashion— so like those speeches which many hon. Members heard through the years of the war—may rally world opinion again to find a peaceful solution to most of its problems.
  I cannot understand why so much space should have been given on the front pages of this morning's newspapers to the gift of a pistol brought from President Eisenhower to General Neguib by Mr. Dulles. I should have thought that in Egypt a basket of figs would have been a more appropriate gift, particularly when we think of the intemperate speech made by General Neguib the day before yesterday.
  I cannot agree with the opinion expressed by the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) who said that the one flaw in the Prime Minister's great speech was his references to the Egyptian situation. I thought the Prime Minister dealt fully and fairly with the position under the 1936 Treaty and with the discharge of our obligations in that regard. Egypt threatens to withdraw from those obligations and certain duties will fall to this country. Yesterday the Prime Minister confirmed again that we shall stand by those obligations.
  Nor did I think that the hon. Member for Coventry, East was really on the centre of the target when he talked about the Prime Minister hectoring and talking down to a small country, almost in the mood of a bully. Yesterday some observations were made by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Foot) about the rather silly—in his opinion—observation of the Prime

  1145
  Minister that Dr. Adenauer was likely to prove the greatest German statesman since Bismarck. I think the hon. Member for Devonport took it literally that the Prime Minister was making a comparison with Bismarck. On reflection, was that completely idle?
  Mr. Silverman: I think in the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Foot) I should say that the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Sir R. Cary) has missed the point. What my hon. Friend regarded as a little remiss was for the Prime Minister to make a most eloquent appeal to France to do certain things and then to couple it with praise of Adenauer as being the greatest statesman since Bismarck. That would hardly commend the present German situation to the French, of all people.
  Sir R. Cary: I was trying to make the point that in Bismarck's time he had a United Germany, whereas today, in our time, we have a divided Germany. Secondly, Bismarck represented that great Re-insurance Treaty with Russia. When he fell out of favour with the Kaiser and became the subject of that famous cartoon in this country, "Dropping the pilot," I think we saw a situation from which stemmed the sequences which brought about those stupid and vicious challenging speeches made by the Kaiser. It let into the domination of German foreign policy the sinister spectacle of Fritz von Holstein. If we look at it in that context we realise that had Bismarck prevailed and retained charge of German foreign policy, possibly that tragic point, 4th August, 1914, would never have occurred.
  In the Library are the memoirs of an early Parliamentary contemporary of the Prime Minister's, Mr. St. John Broderick, who was Secretary of State for War and who argued this point with the Kaiser. The Kaiser had made proposals in foreign policy quite inacceptable to the then Prime Minister, Lord Salisbury, and when Mr. St. John Broderick reported to the Kaiser that the British Government could not be interested along the lines which the Kaiser had outlined, the Kaiser stamped his feet and said,
  "Well, Broderick, one day you will be sorry. There is no balance of power in Europe except
  1146
  my 30 Army Corps and they cannot last for ever. The day will come when Britain, without allies, will be crushed between the economic might of Russia on the one hand and the economic might of the United States on the other hand."
  Whereupon, Broderick said,
  "Sir, I shall be interested to recall that to you in, say, 20 years' time."
  The Kaiser replied,
  "No, no, no, Broderick. I will not be tied to time— 20 — 30 — 50 years' time; but certainly it will come."
  The only validity of this prophecy is that there has grown the gigantic economic might of Russia on the one hand and of the United States on the other. The hon. Member for Edge Hill, in the concluding sentences of his speech, put his finger on our problem today—that in between those two enormous forces we want a declaration of British independence, Britain in command of its own foreign policy, subscribing united British Commonwealth opinion to the counsels of the world.
  8.5 p.m.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: I have been a Member of this House for 18 years. I have sat through every speech in this debate and scarcely left the Chamber during the debate, and I welcome this opportunity of making a few observations upon foreign affairs. When Mr. Ivor Thomas left the Labour Party he said he had decided that it would be better for him to be a Conservative outside the Labour Party than a Conservative inside it, and I hope that those who built this party will never forget that and will learn the lessons properly, because we need to learn them in these times in particular.
  During the whole of my life I have never known peace. We have been involved in either wars or strikes, lock-outs or wars of intervention, and in the so-called war to end war. As a mere boy of 18 years of age I left my mother—and all that meant—and I remember to this day how she was told that I had been transferred to the Machine Gun Corps, which was the suicide corps. What happened to my mother happened to millions of other mothers, whether their skins were black, white or yellow.
  Having served in the First World War in France and Germany, and remembering that thousands of my generation were

  1147
  cut off in the flower of their youth, I stand here, so many years afterwards, lucky to be living and strong and therefore determined for the rest of my life to be worthy of those whom we have forgotten.
  We shared the hopes raised by President Wilson. Hopes are again being raised in the minds of millions of people, and we pray that the same results will not follow as followed in those days. We paid dearly for the Versailles Peace Treaty and all it meant. During two world wars we have been promised all kinds of things in order that we should make sacrifices to win wars for democracy. After both world wars we have been deceived by the spokesmen and the Governments of the countries responsible.
  It is time that the whole world, and the United States in particular, learned that
  "A lesson dearly bought,
  Is a lesson well taught."
  I agree with many speakers when they say we should appreciate the support given to many countries by the United States since the end of the last war, but so that we can get this matter into correct perspective I will read some figures which should be placed on record. In the last war, United States casualties as a percentage of the population equalled 0.8. In this country they equalled 1.3 of our population; in France, 1.8; in Germany, 14.3; in Poland, 17.5; in Yugoslavia, 12.2; in the U.S.S.R., 8.3.
  All the Governments in the world are not worth a snap of the fingers as compared with those mothers whose sons gave their lives both in the First World War and again in the second. Having come through it all, and against that background, not having learned all this from books, as the Prime Minister said yesterday, and as so many people now playing their part in certain quarters, but with too much influence, are doing, I am speaking from my own point of view, just as the Prime Minister was from his.
  I was very pleased to see that the "Manchester Guardian" emphasised, as I want to do, that the Prime Minister, in what that paper described as his best post-war Parliamentary speech, appealed for a conference at the highest level between the leading Powers, including Russia, and it is a good thing to see that
  1148
  those hon. Members in many parts of the House who have done all they possibly could to discourage us from putting these proposals forward, are now supporting what they have opposed for so long. Still, we welcome it, because it is in harmony with the way the world is moving. The "Manchester Guardian" said:
  "In Korea—a truce. He would be well content with that, leaving time to deal with what is unattainable now, a united Korea … He claimed the right of the British Government to speak ' frankly and plainly' to the United States … In a parenthesis during a reference to Indo-China, he questioned the assumption that the invasion of Laos has been inspired by the Soviet."
  People who differ from the Prime Minister frankly need to draw the lessons from these statements made by the Prime Minister. His speech now needs to be followed up by action. All the speaking in the world is not an atom of good unless it is translated into concrete reality and results in action. Therefore, the road is now clear, and no country, no person should be allowed to stand in the way which the Prime Minister suggested we should travel in his speech yesterday. President Eisenhower has made a similar speech, and, in spite of a lack of information amongst certain hon. Members who have contributed to this debate, the late Mr. Stalin made several suggestions of a similar character during the past few years. Mr. Malenkov said, on 15th March:
  "At present, there is no disputed issue which could not be settled peacefully on the basis of the mutual agreement of the countries concerned. This refers to our relations with all States, including our relations with the United States of America."
  Therefore, I repeat that the road is now clear for an early five-Power Conference and for a new start in world affairs. In my view, an early conference should be held of the kind suggested by the Prime Minister, and its immediate objective should be to stop the present drift in world affairs. There should be limited agreement among those assembled at the conference on a policy on a short-term basis, in the hope that a policy of peaceful co-existence could be agreed upon. They should also work together on the basis of a long-term agreement for cooperation with a reinforced United Nations.

  1149
  President Roosevelt said:
  "The unity we have made for war is nothing to the unity we will have to build for peace. That is when the cry will come that our unity is no longer necessary. That is when the job will begin in earnest."
  What President Roosevelt said is as true today as when he said it during the war. I will never forget when my late right hon. Friend Ernest Bevin sat at my lunch table one day. It was my privilege to be friendly with Ernest Bevin long before he came into this House, and I have often quoted to him the lines—I am not sure whether they are by Shakespeare or not—
  "Make new friends, but keep the old;
  These are silver, those are gold."
  Ernest Bevin, and others who obtain great influence in national and world affairs, knew and remembered that statement by one of the finest poets who ever lived. It was during the days when there was great controversy in our party with regard to our foreign policy. I could not enter into it altogether, because of my respect for the Foreign Secretary, although I was not in agreement with him.
  At the table where I was having lunch, three other hon. Members of the House had been discussing our foreign policy. When one left, Ernest Bevin came up and said, "How are you getting on? "I could hardly speak, because I do not believe in saying one thing here and another out there, but, eventually, he drew me into conversation, and I said, "I may as well tell you; we have been talking about you." He said, "What have you been saying?" I told him, "I have been saying that you always used to say to me 'We will build a bridge'," and he got hold of my hand and said, "We may yet."
  I believe that the time has arrived when, although Ernest Bevin is no longer living, this country should take the initiative and build a bridge. It is the greatest hope of the world. We should encourage the start of this enterprise. What the engineers of this country have done all over the world in the physical sense, so the politicians can do in the political sense if they have the courage to take the initiative and work on the lines which the Prime Minister suggested yesterday.
  Some of us are now feeling a sense of disillusionment, but we do not allow it
  1150
  to upset us to any great extent. Although we have seen the failure of the League of Nations, we still believe that the only hope of mankind is to create a body of united nations in order that countries can solve their problems round a table rather than resort to war. It has been my privilege to work with men and women whose skins have been black, white and yellow, to work with them in all parts of Europe and serve with them in the First World War, and, wherever I have gone I have always tried to play the game with others and have expected others to play the game with me. I think that if, in ordinary life, we apply that policy, most people will respond. If that is the right policy in human relationship then there must have been something fundamentally wrong when, twice in my lifetime, I have been sent to join with other men in fighting one another with bombs, bayonets and tanks, and now we have the deadly weapon of atomic energy hanging over our heads.
  This country, which has pioneered constitutional Government and in which, in particular, the working classes have won the right of free speech and the right to organise, must fulfil its historical role in passing on to others what we have achieved in our own country, and we must take the initiative in making our contribution to the progress of the rest of the world.
  My cousins and uncles were all driven out of this country in 1911 and 1912, but my family stayed here, and the result is that we have played our part, while, in Australia and New Zealand and in other places, I have scores of cousins, who also have children of their own. In two world wars, we in this country have found that our best friends have been proved to be New Zealanders and Australians.
  Therefore, we do not go into world affairs backed up with only 50 million people, but backed up with teeming millions represented in the British Commonwealth, whose skins are white, as in New Zealand, Australia and other countries, and 350 million who are as good as any of us, the Indian men and women. They are also praying for peace, as we are. I plead not only for the initiative to be taken in the direction of an early conference but also to buttress up the United Nations, which has great achievements to

  1151
  its credit, in spite of our disappointments in certain directions.
  Against that background, I would now make some observations in support of the Constructive Motion which appears on the Order Paper this week-end, and which states:
  "That this House welcomes the recent statements made by the representatives of Great Britain, India, the United States, of America, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and China, and urges Her Majesty's Government to take the initiative with a view to bringing about a basis of agreement which will lead towards a Five-Power Conference, the strengthening of the United Nations Organisation and a World Economic Conference, to bring about a large-scale expansion of trade and the production of food."
  It is in that direction that this country has the greatest hope. There are 50 million men and women in this country, every one dependent upon those who do the work but cannot do it unless we get large-scale orders from all over the world. It is not only a question of assisting the backward countries to develop and make progress, but it is also a good business proposition for ourselves, if we wish to maintain the standard of living that we have achieved.
  It has been my privilege to have many Chinese students working with me. I have worked with Chinese workers in France and I learned, during that time, greatly to admire the Chinese people. They have been to our house and we have given them the benefit of all we could. The result is that we have maintained correspondence which I treasure. The Chinese people greatly admire our country and our people. There is enormous good will in China towards the British people. Is it all to be cast away? In its place are we to put bitterness? The answers to those questions will be given by our policy.
  For generations there has been bitterness in Ireland against the English people because of the way in which English landlords treated them, but English people were never responsible for that. We should learn lessons from that. I have heard leading Indian spokesmen say that they were inclined to be as bitter as the Irish. There is no longer bitterness left in India because of the magnanimous way we dealt with the Indians a few years ago. There are great lessons in that. The Indian people are now our
  1152
  best friends in the world. What we did with India to win their friendship we should do with the Chinese and with people in other parts of the world.
  Now that mighty China is awakening from the sleep of centuries and, with other countries, is moving in accord with its own opportunities, we need to be on our guard or we shall be left behind because of the speed with which those countries are making progress. Britain should hold out the hand of friendship to all those who are prepared to accept it— China, India, all backward countries— and who need our friendship, our trade, our technical advice. It is in the days of adversity that we find our real friends. Britain could be a great workshop for the advancement of Asia. This is the road to peace, progress and plenty. Let us appeal to the peoples of the world. Let us back up the Prime Minister's statement with action upon the lines that I am suggesting.
  We must make a new start with our relations with other countries. No longer dare anyone bully or persecute the workers of this country. We have learned to organise to defend ourselves. What applies to our own people applies to the peoples of the world, no matter what the colour of their skins may be. No longer will they be bullied or held back, no matter who may be trying to do it. It is time that we recognised that. If we are trying to hold them back by military weapons, that is murder, and just as a person is tried for taking life in this country so, if we try to hold them back with military weapons, it is not individual murder but is equivalent to mass murder, that will prevent peace.
  I want even the Conservative Party to learn lessons from this. It was they who were responsible for the loss of Abadan. It was they who were responsible for getting Britain a bad name through Britain Imperialism holding India back for so long. If they are prepared now to recognise that we are living in the mid-twentieth century and that the whole world is moving in the way it is, it is time that Britain moved in harmony with the world.
  If anyone doubts what I have said about Abadan let him read a Foreign Office document which I have here. I will pass it round, because I have not

  1153
  time to quote from it, as I would have liked to do. Here is the document that I sent to the Foreign Secretary when Ernest Bevin was in that position. Here is the copy of a letter which I received from a British engineer working in Abadan, in which he indicts our treatment of the natives. This letter has to be read to be believed.
  The lesson I draw from it is that we ought to profit by the mistakes of the past. We have still a great future to play in world affairs. It is only by recognising that we are now living in the mid-twentieth century that we can do this, and by recognising that what was right in the 18th and 19th centuries no longer applies.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: This has been a most remarkable debate, remarkable not only for the sense of national unity that has inspired it but for the fact that there has not been a speech from either side of the House that has not been well worth listening to. I seemed to hear in the speech of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) the authentic voice of suffering, inarticulate, puzzled, disillusioned, humanity throughout the world. I also heard in him the authentic voice of the British working man, who is the heart and core of Britain.
  But I ask him not to fall into the mistake, into which people all over the world fall, of always searching for the villain of the piece, whether it is the landlord in Ireland, the employer in the Midlands, or the Conservative Party over India. It has been my experience in life and I am sure it has been his—that when one gets among people of any race, colour, class, or party, in this country, or outside, one finds that they have much the same standards, ideals and good intentions as one has oneself. I ask him not to think one thing in politics and another in private life, though I am sure that he does not need to be told that.
  I also ask that neither he nor anybody else in this House, or in the world outside, should fall into the cardinal error of believing that the salvation of humanity is to be found through politics and political organisations. The millenium of peace and paradise on earth will not be found through the United
  1154
  Nations or pacts against war or Parliaments or talking shops of any description. The human race will only achieve happiness through a change in the human heart when every individual learns to behave properly, to see other people's point of view and to treat people with the charity and comradeship which I am sure the hon. Member accords to all with whom he comes into contact. The hon. Member gave me the text for my speech in the little verse which he attributed, wrongly, I think, to Shakespeare, but which was just as good as if it had been written by him.
  "Make new friends, but keep the old,
  These are silver, those are gold."
  I am disturbed by what I consider to be a far greater threat to the world than anything yet mentioned in this debate. We have merely skirted the subject and sailed all round it. I am perturbed by the fact that the relationships between ourselves and our oldest and truest friend in the world are progressively deteriorating at a rapid rate. I am most uneasy at the state of our relations with the United States. I am sure that contact between the State Department and the Foreign Office is as friendly and intimate as it could be, but I believe that on both sides of the Atlantic, among the public opinion that matters more than Cabinets or Foreign Offices, there is a progressive worsening of feeling.
  We had all the evidence of it in the House today and yesterday. What appealed to us all in the Prime Minister's speech and in this new direction of British foreign policy was the thought that at last we are to have a British policy, an independent policy and that at last we are to sail under our own colours on the course which we think best and wisest. But that has its dangers. I am appalled by the fact that subconsciously in all our minds there is irritation and resentment at certain tactics and unfortunate things done by the Americans. And I am sure that throughout the United States, among ordinary simple people—I am not talking about vociferous, vulgar journalists who exist in that country as they do everywhere else—there is progressive irritation against Britain and Europe.
  What can we do about it? To put it in the plainest words, which I hardly

  1155
  like to use, what can we do to control United States policy and to get the United States to walk with us hand in hand in following a common and united policy for the good of the world? It is a truism, a platitude, but nevertheless a fact, that if Britain and the United States go together with a wise, sound and united policy all is possible and the world will be saved. It is equally true to say that if we fail to go together hand in hand, if we fall out and follow divergent policies, then all is probably lost.
  There are various ways of dealing with one's friends when one does not see eye to eye with them. Plain speaking is the recipe which is usually offered. It is said, "Speak plainly to your friends and you will retain their respect and their friendship; you will clear the air and get things put right." I am afraid that that has been the tenor of this debate, but I do not think one can have plain speaking unless it is based on friendship and mutual confidence, which are the necessary prerequisites for the creation of the atmosphere in which plain speaking will work.
  Both here and in the United States those of us who have a hand in directing the course of public thought must make immediately a deliberate effort to get each country to understand the other. It is much easier to see the mistakes which are made by the other side. It is much easier to see the motes in their eyes than the beams in ours.
  I propose to explain what I believe to be the point of view of the average American towards this country and Europe. I admit that I shall be uttering platitudes—things we all know—but I think they are things which we are inclined to forget. First, do not let us forget that America never intended to become involved in world affairs. Its inhabitants wanted only to be left alone to enjoy the riches that bountiful Nature offered to the industry and inventive genius of its inhabitants. In the big towns and small villages of America people are saying, "Why cannot we be left alone?"
  Then, do not forget that a very large proportion of the population of the United States is of immigrant stock, and that their view of Europe is connected with "old, unhappy, far-off things and
  1156
  battles long ago," memories of persecution and poverty. They may be the descendants of Germans who fled from Germany in 1848, or Italians who left penury and semi-starvation on the barren hills of Italy, or Jews who fled from the persecutions of Hitler, or Russians who fled from the pogroms in the early years of this century, or even Britons who left the harsh conditions of this country to find an Eldorado in the promised land of the United States. Forty per cent. of the population of America have inherited a prejudice against contact with Europe.
  Do not forget that, with this as a background, practically every American family has poured out money and blood for what they regard as quixotic crusades in Europe in two world wars and in Korea now. They do not regard the two world wars as being wars in which America was fighting for her life-blood, like we did. They thought they were very noble to do anything about it at all. Do not forget that every single American taxpayer today is paying fairly severely, by way of taxation, to help Europe, including this country.
  Turning to Korea, do not forget that 1,250,000 American troops have passed through that theatre of war. Do not forget their casualties, and that they bear nineteen-twentieths of the burden—and they feel that we are bearing very little. Possibly 10 per cent. of American families have a direct personal interest in the Korean fighting.
  Something else which is frequently forgotten is the fact that America poured out very large sums to help China. They regard themselves as a kind of Father Christmas, now being bitten by those they fed. Let us disabuse our minds of the thought that anybody in America wants war. It is nonsense to say there is a war party in the United States. It is true that some Americans are so frightened of war that they say, "Let us get it over with while the going is good." But that is not a war party. They are more anti-war in their very bones than the most pacific of pacifists in this country. That is evidence of fear; it may be evidence of adolescence and immaturity in world problems, but it is not bellicosity or warmongering. Those Americans are not warmongers or bellicose in the sense that Germany is a

  1157
  bellicose and warmongering nation. They are seeking for peace.
  Now I want to tread particularly delicately, because I do not wish to be accused of bringing party politics into this debate which has so far been singularly free of them. Rightly or wrongly— I am sure, wrongly—the Americans think that the Labour Party, which represents, let us say for the sake of argument, half the people of this country, is tainted with conscious or subconscious anti-Americanism. They think, rightly or wrongly, I do not know, that the Socialist Party has an instinctive antipathy towards a great capitalist nation. They seize on every anti-American speech made from the benches opposite.
  I do not know whether the House recollects, but on 5th February there was a debate on Formosa, and on the American unilateral action in moving the Seventh Fleet from Formosa, theoretically, at any rate, setting free General Chiang Kai-shek's troops to make assaults on the mainland. So great was the interest of the American people in that debate that a leading newspaper in the United States, with a very large circulation, published the HANSARD Report almost word for word. I made a speech in the debate; one which caused me some embarrassment because, unfortunately, I was put down as a Member of the Labour Party. I have received nothing but a stream of letters from America saying what a wonderful Socialist I am. It was, of course, a very good thing from the point of view of Anglo-American relations that it should have been thought that one Member of the Socialist Party at least had sympathy with the American point of view.
  Mr. James Hudson: Is not the hon. Gentleman proving how extremely badly informed those American newspapers are?
  Mr. Nicholson: Indeed I am. Not because I think anybody outside my own constituency should necessarily know the party I represent. I have, I hope, what the newspapers call a becoming modesty. But they are badly informed.
  I ask the House to recognise that for the ordinary American in the ordinary small town Europe and world affairs belong, so to speak, to another planet. For generations the American world has
  1158
  been bounded by the vast plains and mountains of the United States. This has an influence on the American view of Britain, and, rightly or wrongly, the Americans regard half the people of this country as being members of a party tainted with strong instinctive anti-American feeling. The real tragedy, of course, is that the Americans recently have been given every excuse for thinking so, for thinking that there is a latent anti-American feeling in the Labour Party. Every time they can the Americans seem to do their best to trail their coat.
  It is maddening, irritating to the last degree, when Mr. Dulles makes those remarks about General Neguib. It was more than irritating to the British people when the Chief Joseph Dam contract was turned down unfairly. We were right to criticise America for taking unilateral action over Formosa. We have every excuse for certain criticism with regard to actions in Korea, and it would Take a saint not to be irritated by Senator McCarthy.
  As the result of what they believe to be anti-American feeling in this country and Socialist antipathy, Anglo-American relations are steadily deteriorating. We have evidence of this during the two days' debate in this House. There is the delight that we are to have at last an independent foreign policy. It is wrong and dangerous that that should be our attitude. I do urge this House and this country to be frank with America but to be fair and understanding and friendly at the same time. We should learn to think of Americans not as a Mr. Dulles or as a Senator McCarthy but as ordinary inhabitants of a small town in the Middle West. They are simple, straight-forward, kind and hospitable people. Anyone who has been to America knows the proverbial hospitality of the Americans. They are friendly, good, upright and, above all idealistic.
  I tell the House that what we call the small town idealism of the ordinary, simple, average American is the most powerful motive force in America today, and I hope it will remain so for a long time. Among all the letters which I have received owing to that curious mistake to which I referred, nearly every one has said, "If you would only come to our little town you would find that the

  1159
  ordinary citizen like me and my neighbours cannot understand England and Europe. We are desperately hurt at being accused of trying to buy friendship with dollars, of being accused of not playing our full-part in the world. We do not understand it. I wish Englishmen would come over and explain what it is all about."
  They are hurt and we are hurt. This just will not do. It is doing the Communists' work for them by allowing out relations between our two great countries to deteriorate in this way. I appeal to the people of this country, through this House, to have another think, to take a pull on themselves and to realise that in giving way to anti-American sentiments, or indeed thoughts, we are doing the work of the Enemy of Mankind. We are doing the work of the Devil himself. We are knocking down the greatest hope for civilisation.
  The greatest hope of civilisation is not that we should just say "ditto" to America or that America should say "ditto" to us, but that we should both think along the same right lines and pursue that enlightened policy which is instinctively in the thoughts of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South and, I hope, everyone else in this House, and which is instinctively in the mind of the ordinary, plain, perhaps adolescent and, in world affairs, not very highly-educated American citizen—the typical American citizen who has made his country great, and is now finding his feet as a member of the leading country of the world.
  In all sincerity, I beseech members of the Labour Party not to let their minds be given to anti-Americanism. I know it is not true of the Labour Party as a whole, but there is a small influential, section of it which yields to the temptation. What is needed between ourselves and America is real loyalty. That does not dispense with frankness of speech or with independent British policy and independent American policy. It means a real, conscious effort to walk hand in hand along the only road by way of which the salvation of mankind can be achieved.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. John Freeman: During the remarks by the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson), I was surprised to hear—I thought I heard him say it—that he had never visited the United States. We shall be interested to hear his account of it when he has visited it.
  Two speeches from the other side of the House have seemed to me to be of exceptional distinction and one was also of exceptional courage. The first speech was that of the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn), and it is not the first time that he has been in that position, and the other was that of the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Alport). During what has inevitably been something of a Tory Party field-day in celebrating the Prime Minister's Parliamentary triumph yesterday afternoon, those two hon. Members have had the courage to stand up and point, in suitably respectful and moderate language, to the really outrageous nature of the Prime Minister's remarks on Egypt.
  No one on this side of the House is so irresponsible as to try to deny that the Prime Minister succeeded in much of what he said in elevating the debate to a level of purpose and endeavour which foreign affairs debates have not always attained in recent years. It is precisely because of that that it is really essential that those of us who disagree strongly with his attitude to the whole problem of the Middle East should say so and should say it in no uncertain terms. On this subject he is out of touch with contemporary reality. In a certain sense this speech is the swansong of British Imperialism.
  The Prime Minister talked about an act of bad faith and based the position of this country in its handling of the Egyptian dispute on what he described as the act of bad faith of General Neguib and his Government. We cannot pretend in the middle of the 20th Century that a bygone treaty made in totally different circumstances enables us to infringe the national sovereignty of a determined and increasingly civilised nation. Yet that is precisely the claim which is enshrined in the Prime Minister's legalistic defence of the British position. Behaviour of this kind cannot be defended according to the

  1161
  letter of the law. It stirs the deepest national feelings.
  If the American forces stationed on the soil of Britain, instead of being accepted and even welcomed, as they probably are, by a majority in both our main political parties at the present moment, were resented by all parties and there was an almost unanimous belief that the Americans had no business to be here and were here against our will, would the right hon. Gentleman or any of his followers dare to stand up in public and defend the position of the Americans on the grounds that a treaty of some years ago had given them the right to infringe our national sovereignty? Yet that is exactly the claim which the Prime Minister has not only made to the House but is seeking to persuade the world that a majority of the people of this country endorse.
  The Prime Minister's defence is that the occupation is on behalf of every member of N.A.T.O. from the North Cape to the Caucasus. That may be true, but those very words still emphasise that our occupation of Egypt is an occupation without the consent of the people of Egypt. If that is so, where are our arguments about the position of the Soviet satellites? Where is the moral position upon which we base our foreign policy, that in some respect we represent the free world? I believe that to be true. I have always believed it; but I cannot face the world proclaiming that that is our position, while we are placing some other country in the position of an unwilling satellite under the force of our arms.
  During debates of this kind sometimes words do one of two things. In some instances they take on a positively apocalyptic quality, and a particular phrase or passage will illuminate a subject far beyond the precise, logical meaning of the bare words. There were passages in the Prime Minister's speech of which one can surely say that, but there were other passages where the words used, as is sometimes the case in the House, obscure simple realities. The simple reality of this situation in Egypt is that we are occupying their territory without their permission, contrary to their desires; and that is wrong.
  When we are in doubt about any policy, either at home or overseas, it is not a bad move to start by asking what
  1162
  is right. If however this is thought to be an idealistic view, out of touch with current events, let us look at it purely from the point of view of expediency.
  What is the purpose of this base? Some practical questions have been asked about this today, and the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) asked more pregnantly than perhaps he realised what had happened to the project of the East African base. He was given a complete answer by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey), who at the relevant time was Secretary of State for War. He said that it was not now considered necessary to have what is called the rear base of Middle East defence in that part of the world at all. When it came to the point of surveying in detail the alternatives to the Canal, it was found that on the whole the United Kingdom was more convenient. That statement implied that this whole conception of the great base, which the Minister of State described to us in figures at an earlier stage this afternoon, is probably outmoded and rests on a conception of warfare which may have been out of date even before the last war.
  But let us assume for the moment, for the sake of argument, that there is some need for a massive base of this kind in the Middle East. What should we want it for? Clearly it is not for an absolutely vital and last-ditch defence of the Suez Canal against local attack. That can never be said again, because we fought and conquered in the last war without control of the Suez Canal. The Canal is highly desirable, but never again can it be said to be absolutely vital, and never again can anyone imagine that the existence of a large base astride the Canal is a guarantee of its security in any case.
  What we require this base for, if we require it at all, is as a base to maintain ground operations against a hypothetical enemy somewhere in the Middle East in the event of a war, and as a place from which we can service our land troops, particularly armour, and our aeroplanes, particularly fighter bombers, in the event of a major land battle developing somewhere between the Persian Gulf and the Mediterranean. If that happens some military thought holds that we should have an extensive Middle East base from which to service such adventure. If that

  1163
  is true, of what use can such a base be unless it has all the administrative and mechanical amenities such as water and electric power, skilled and unskilled labour, railways and roads and the rest? These things are essential to the base if there is any case to be made out for it at all.
  If the Joint Under-Secretary of State is to reply to this debate, I want to ask him this simple question. Has he been advised by any of his senior and responsible military advisers that a Canal base without the use of Egyptian labour and Egyptian civilian facilities is of great value, or essential, to Middle East Defence? I doubt it. I want to ask him a further question. Does any one of his political advisers advise him seriously that this is the way to ensure continued use of Egyptian labour and facilities, and so continued value of the base? Is it possible to imagine that, if this policy is persisted in it can lead to any improvement in the situation?
  Is the Foreign Office gambling on being able to drive out General Neguib so that he can be replaced by somebody with whom they will find it easier to negotiate? If they are, let me remind them, as other speakers have reminded them earlier in this debate, that this is a gamble which has been tried before by other Governments and has failed, and it will fail again. The answer to those questions is, first that the base is not of value unless it includes the goodwill of the Egyptians. Secondly, that the present policy is calculated not to win us the goodwill of Egypt; and, thirdly, that a gamble that General Neguib might be replaced by somebody more amenable is a gamble which is almost certain not to come off.
  Is it possible that the Foreign Office is gambling on something else? Is it gambling on this, that if somehow we can hang on long enough, if we are still there when a war starts, that in the end the Egyptians will support us? That is a very long shot. In the last war and under different circumstances, when we were fighting Nazi Germany, the support of the Egyptians was very qualified. To take another example, we did not get the support of the Burmese at that time because they were prepared to do a deal
  1164
  with the Japanese in order to throw out the British. I am afraid it will be found, if that is the gamble which the Government are seeking to make, that if war should come, any kind of unholy deal will be made in order to get rid of the British. The lamp of nationalism is alight in the Middle East now, and it will take more buckets of water than there are in the Mediterranean to put it out.
  What about the consequences of trying to enforce the kind of policy to which the Government have now put their hand? As the Prime Minister said yesterday, British troops can defend themselves unaided in one sense, but can they defend themselves indefinitely in conditions of guerilla war? Remember Palestine: have we to learn that lesson again? There are no doubt people who, following the logic of this situation, would say, "All right, let us take the risk. Let us, if necessary, occupy Cairo." Let the Government remember that if you squat on the territory of another person, and if you enforce your rights against his will by the force of arms, it is possible that the rest of the world will regard you as the aggressor.
  Nobody on this side of the House seeks to underestimate the difficult position in which British troops are currently placed in Egypt. On the contrary. If our advice is followed their position would be a good deal easier. But it is not good enough for the Minister of State, in a passage which I thought was unworthy of him in his speech this afternoon, to fire at us for the first time from that Dispatch Box a list of atrocities of which we had heard nothing before. One can only assume, from the way in which they were brought out, that the purpose of doing it was to cloud people's judgment and to whip up feeling in this debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Indeed, I say so, or why should this day, of all days, have been chosen to release those pieces of information?
  I say to the House that I yield to no man, on either side of the House, either in love of my country or in my feeling for our soldiers in difficult circumstances in Egypt at this moment. But their difficulties are difficulties which are occasioned mainly by the British Government; and, if I were an Egyptian at this moment facing the present British policy of

  1165
  occupation, I should count it a shame if I did not give my pledge to support General Neguib and drive the British out of my country. What is more, if the Prime Minister were an Egyptian and 50 years younger he would be fighting the same battle.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): Mr. McNeil.
  Mr. Harold Davies: On a point of order. I wish to have your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I have sat through this debate for two days continuously and followed every speech. I do not think I have been out of the Chamber for more than 30 minutes. An arrangement has been made with the Chair and I wish to make a protest about the disgusting treatment I have had in this debate.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must remind the hon. Member that some of the adjectives he is using are not warranted and, indeed, some of the allegations he is making are not warranted. I wish it had been possible to call far more hon. Members, but there are a number of hon. Members I have not been able to call— a number of hon. Members who have sat throughout the debate.
  Mr. Davies: But I do know that arrangements have been made—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. Mr. McNeil.
  Mr. W. Griffiths: Further to that point of order. Surely my hon. Friend is entitled to a reply?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot arrange for the calling of hon. Members. I have called all the hon. Members I could call within the time. It is a matter for the House and not for the Chair. Mr. McNeil.
  Mr. Davies: Well, I protest.
  9.4 p.m.
  Mr. Hector McNeil: I have a great deal of sympathy for my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies). It is an experience which comes to many of us from time to time.
  Before I turn to the main theme of this debate, which I think is quite plainly upon a discussion of this pause in international events, I should like to make
  1166
  reference to the line pursued by my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. J. Freeman). No one on this side of the House would in any circumstances attempt to defend any imperialist demonstration or establishment of power. I do not want to say anything to exacerbate a difficult situation, but I hope that the Egyptian Government may yet discover conditions upon which an amicable arrangement can be made to the benefit, not only of both countries, but of everyone concerned with the maintenance of stability and defence in the Middle East. Indeed, I was impressed that, in perhaps one of the most forceful speeches made on this subject, by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), he admitted that this was not an isolated claim nor an isolated situation, and that he was concerned with subsequent possible repercussions upon Israel. My hon. Friend went on to discuss other precautions that must be taken at a subsequent stage in relation to Israel.
  I should like to thank the Minister of State for the account he gave us of the negotiations and for an opportunity to study the objection of the Egyptian Government. I should like also to say that Her Majesty's Opposition are indeed grateful that the right hon. Gentleman took the opportunity to re-affirm the position of Her Majesty's Government in relation to the rights of the Sudan. That is, of course, very agreeable to us for a number of reasons.
  I think there was a time when, if Her Majesty's Government had been dishonourable, we might have secured some agreement on the base although none of us would have agreed that it was enduring if we had been prepared to sell out on the Sudanese. We did not and the House is united in its congratulations to Her Majesty's Government that they continue this line of saying that the long effort to bring the Sudanese to self-government and self-determination shall fructify.
  I must, however, in candour and, I hope, in kindliness, say this to the right hon. Gentleman. We on both sides of the House know that he speaks the truth about the Government's intentions towards the Sudanese people, but there are other countries where the bona fides of Her Majesty's Government in relation to

  1167
  the Sudanese will be doubted because another Minister of the same Government talks of the people in Nyasaland and Rhodesia in a completely different tone. In the north we protect the Sudanese. In the south and east the Government make an imposition which they do not even attempt to pretend is acceptable to the majority of the people whom it is going to affect.
  I am sure the House are indebted to the hon. Baronet the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) and to my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) for bringing to our attention the necessity to associate Colonial Office activities in all countries and the Foreign Office in the development of a single policy. Separation is utterly unreal. It does not happen in the United Nations. It does not happen in diplomatic conferences or in public discussion, but in some countries it is thought that these two separate lines should be followed with little regard to each other.
  I want to talk of the main subject which has been the preoccupation of this wide, good tempered and almost wholly constructive debate. I thought that the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) was right in saying that there had not been a speech which had not at least one constructive idea to offer. Plainly we are agreed that there is a change in Soviet policy. Whether it is basic or whether it is tactical is a matter of opinion. I will not weary the House with my reasons for concluding that it is tactical. It is interesting to know that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) both concluded that there seemed now to be some kind of concert, whereas previously in the Kremlin there had been an attitude of dictatorship.
  I noticed in "Pravda" of 2nd May something which I should like to mention. I cannot read Russian, but those who are interested ought to look at that newspaper of that date, even if they do not read Russian. The photographs of May Day demonstrations have previously always had Generalissimo Stalin in the centre and he has always had a child or several children in his arms. The most extraordinary feature of the photographs of the May Day demonstrations
  1168
  this year published in "Pravda" is that every member of the Soviet Cabinet had at least one child in his arms, and I think that those who examine the picture will come to the conclusion that Mr. Malenkov had two children in his arms. It is a ludicrous position that we are driven to sift that kind of evidence in order to come to conclusions, but I think it rather upholds the point of view expressed by my right hon. Friend and the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove.
  The House, supported by the Prime Minister, has gone on to argue that Soviet Russia may hope in this new situation to impair the concept of defence of the Atlantic democracies. Another and perhaps even a more precise way of saying this would be that Soviet Russia in this new situation will hope to divide Britain from America by offers in the Far East and the conditions attaching to such offers. She will hope in Europe to divide France from Britain—I hope I do not interrupt the conversation of the right hon. Lady the Minister of Education.
  Mr. Hugh Dalton: It has been going on all the time for the last quarter of an hour.
  Mr. McNeil: In Europe Russia will hope to divide France from Britain, and perhaps both from America, by the offers she makes in relation to Germany and the conditions she attaches to such offers. Again and again in the debate, particularly today, this is a point to which hon. Members have returned.
  If, for example, Soviet Russia proves to be in earnest on a unified Germany, and if she will agree to free elections in Germany, she may hope so to reassure opinion, particularly American opinion, that in time—perhaps in a short time— American troops will move out from Europe; and France, perhaps appalled at the desertion of her allies in varying degrees, will be forced to make an accommodation with Soviet Russia. Going on in degrees with the argument, we ought in honesty to make this admission to ourselves. There is nothing improper or surprising or unusual in the Soviet attempt thus to divide us. That is precisely the tactics we have employed against Soviet Russia since four-Power agreement disappeared in 1945.
  In that situation, if we stand pat on N.A.T.O., and by any kind of device put

  1169
  off discussions which should arise from a Soviet initiative in relation to Germany, then of course the gains of the last few years in terms of democratic understanding and concerted democratic advance will be thrown away overnight, and other consequences will follow. We shall see, unhappily, as a consequence of such a situation, the resurgence of Communist strength in France; in Germany both East and West; probably in Italy, and perhaps penetrating into the Balkans with disrupting effect on recent arrangements.
  What then should we do? What should Her Majesty's Government be urging at this time? Stripped of all the diplomatic approaches, of all the protective devices which we may temporarily erect, there is but one condition upon which a unified Germany could be permitted to re-emerge without danger to France and Britain, and European opinion, and perhaps, under certain conditions, to the United States. That basic condition is the re-establishment of the four-Power policy in relation to the future of Germany.
  I listened to the moving and informed speech of the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove, corroborated by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East. I do not delude myself, no sensible person does, that Germany can be contained. It is a wretched and a silly word to use at any time in relation to a growing and virile organism. Germany cannot be contained. Without agreement on Germany, no equilibrium in Europe is possible. Given four-Power agreement on Germany, order in Europe is possible and, I should think, probable.
  I suppose this is the basis of the Prime Minister's curious turning towards a new Locarno Pact. I am sorry to say that I thought it was a singularly unfortunate allusion, almost as unfortunate as his comparison of Dr. Adenauer with Bismarck. I cannot imagine that this warm reference to this triple aggressor would raise any cheers in Paris, and it is an interesting digression to wonder why, if the Prime Minister was so taken up with Locarno, he did not compare Dr. Adenauer with Dr. Stresemann—a very interesting little domestic political guessing competition. There is only one condition upon which a unified Germany can be permitted to re-emerge.
  I thought the Prime Minister was singularly unjust in his strictures upon France.
  1170
  He is far too big a man and this is far too important a subject for him to turn aside to make a jest, even though it was a very witty jest, at the expense of my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). The Prime Minister knows better than anyone in the House that if men, equipment and money alone could have solved the problem in Indo-China, then France would have solved it. He knows perfectly well that it is an unfair comparison to compare the French service with our period of two years' National Service, because he knows that there are two important differences. First, exemptions except for ill-health are almost unknown in the French service. Secondly, because of the drain in Indo-China France has not a cadre of officers or non-commissioned men to train more than she is calling up at the moment. At this time, when France needs all her friends, I thought it unfortunate that he should yield to that temptation.
  We on this side of the House think that if there were a diplomatic instrument appropriate to a situation of this kind, the Geneva Protocol is better than the Locarno Pact. But neither of these devices has any real application because, however we dance round the problem, however we fail to be precise about it— and it is quite understandable that Governmental speakers could not be precise about it—we should fail because France is terrified of the conditions under which American troops would be withdrawn from Europe, Russia must remain uneasy as long as they remain there, and, of course, Germany will be quite certain that she can make a profitable occasion of either circumstance. One of my hon. Friends said they were profiteers in the cold war, they have been profiteers in occupation and they certainly have long experience in how to make a profit from such a situation.
  No treaty, no convention, no diplomatic instrument is a substitute for a renewal in Europe of understanding between the four Great Powers, and that is why the House, almost without exception, has taken up the Prime Minister—with varying qualifications—to congratulate him and to assure him of their backing in this proposal for a four-Power meeting. Various problems interest us, and all of us have different ideas about what might be discussed, but basically in Europe at

  1171
  any rate, we come back to this meeting. Two points arise here. My right hon. Friend made it plain that in that kind of approach we do not argue for a second that the progress made under N.A.T.O. should be deserted before we have substantial concrete evidence in our hands.
  I want, in this connection, to put two short points. I have never disguised the fact that I scarcely hoped that E.D.C. would ever be an effective defence instrument, and I still entertain doubts as to its ratification, but I have noted, as other hon. Members must have done, that France is once more moving up to the line. France will ask for some additional concessions to be made before her Prime Minister will ask the country to face ratification.
  I imagine, from Press reports, that what France is likely to ask for is some further commitment from Her Majesty's Government. I do not want to be critical of their difficulties, but, from the point of view of this country, it would be a very grave step, and I therefore hope that, while I do not want to embarrass the Joint Under-Secretary, he will tell us that if there have been any conversations relating to Great Britain making any further gesture or taking any further part in relation to E.D.C. I am sure that he would agree that, if they have taken place, it is only proper that the House should know.
  The second point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) on agreement on Germany if Western Germany was already a partner in E.D.C. My recollection is that when the Foreign Secretary, whose enforced absence we all regret, brought the Conventions to the House in the first instance, he said, it seemed to me quite beyond ambiguity, that no undertaking entered into by a part of the whole could override any subsequent decision which a united Germany may take. I think I am right in recalling that, but it will be very relpful if the hon. Gentleman could find time to reaffirm that point.
  In passing, may I say that I notice on the tape tonight that there have been changes in the N.A.T.O. Command. I am sure there are reasons for them, and I would not want to read anything sinister into it, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will tell us if this is part of the normal Command arrangements and if Her
  1172
  Majesty's Government were consulted, or at any rate informed, because I do not want to put the Prime Minister in any difficulties about the Mediterranean Command again.
  If I may come back to my main point, we all know that a four-Power agreement could not be taken overnight, and that there is no possible short cut. We are agreed that there should be a four-Power meeting, and we are agreed in varying degrees that the four-Power meeting should not build up exactly the hopes, and that there should be a privacy not usually attendant upon such meetings. I would hope that the heads of those States should meet to see if there are points upon which there is a likelihood of agreement.
  The House has discussed various suggestions. One hon. Member referred to Trieste. At one time I would have thought it was the first problem upon which there might have been agreement. Now I have doubts. Many hon. Members have referred to the Austrian Treaty. I should have thought it better if the invitation had been held back until the possibility of a four-Power meeting had been decided upon or rejected. The Austrian Treaty may be a good test. There is another and very effective one, and that should be considered in privacy. There should be an attempt to recreate in Berlin a real, representative four-Government Berlin authority. The basis is there in the municipal authority. All that is needed is that the Soviet authority should agree to elections in Berlin. There are other tests, and I am anxious, as I am sure many other hon. Members are, that the tests should be made if possible in Germany.
  What is plain is that these great men should at this moment be looking for little things upon which there exists, by their exchange of views, a possibility of agreement. As to the time to meet, the House is quite clear upon that. The meeting should be proposed immediately following the agreement for a Truce in Korea. The talks in Korea should not be extended or related to any other event. Many of my hon. Friends have made points with which I agree. The right hon. Gentleman opposite was, as far as a diplomat can be, forthcoming in his allusion to the points about the rights of China, once a truce has been achieved.

  1173
  Wider problems should not be permitted to intervene at this moment. The right hon. Gentleman raised an argument about two of the modalities that are outstanding in the truce talks, but I think he places too much stress upon them. It is idle to say that the Swiss could not easily find forces. It is true that they have no standing army, but they have long-standing arrangements for national service in three categories, one running up to the age of 45. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker) said to me in conversation that the Swiss make a habit of volunteering. There will not be any difficulty. Surely the point is that it is right that we should be concerned about these men. The United Nations have achieved agreement upon the principles. When the guns are silent in Korea we can imagine the conditions and methods of modalities.
  Armistice in Korea will hold all sorts of possibilities. People talk about the necessity for Britain to speak. We understand, but surely what we want at this stage is not British policy or the policy of the United States but a joint policy, based upon our Charter obligations. Surely we are all aware of that. We have had enough of declarations. I am inclined to argue that just as a meeting of four heads of States should be as private as possible, so we have arrived at that time when, if we are going to make the best use of this pause, we should be talking in hushed voices and in fairly precise terms. At any rate, we earnestly hope that the Government will use, as they have pledged, all the opportunities at their disposal and all the influence that they can wield to make the greatest use of this pause in international events.
  9.35 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Nutting): As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) has said, this debate has been remarkable for the degree of unanimity on both sides of the House and for the number of most thoughtful speeches which have been made. I hope that he will not think it impertinent of me if I say that I thought his own speech, in particular in its references to the methods and means of
  1174
  holding a four-Power conference, was most helpful and most thoughtful.
  As my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State has dealt in some detail with Korea, China and Egypt, I will not touch on these fields save to say one thing in reply to Egyptian passages in the speeches of the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) and the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. J. Freeman). These two hon. Members said that the Prime Minister's speech had been unfair and unworthy, and indeed the hon. Member for Watford described it as outrageous in respect of Egypt. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Withing-ton (Sir R. Cary), and when I heard the hon. Member for Coventry, East speak I could not help recalling that another speech had been made yesterday in Cairo, a speech which threatened this country, of which, after all, the hon. Member for Coventry, East is a citizen, as the enemy of Egypt. What else, therefore, could any British Prime Minister say in face of such a threat to a country standing on its legal rights than what he said in his speech yesterday?
  It is not the United Kingdom who have broken off negotiations. It is General Neguib, who, to quote his own phrase, has washed his hands of negotiations with us about the Canal Zone. Is it outrageous, unfair or unworthy for the Prime Minister to say, as he did, that we, for our part, would be willing to resume negotiations if the Egyptians were prepared to do so? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenock adopted a very different, much more temperate, much more helpful and statesmanlike line. He shared the hope expressed by the Prime Minister in a most temperate and helpful fashion.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, East said that had the Prime Minister said to the House that the Egyptian terms were unacceptable because we could not fulfil our obligations towards Israel he would have felt very differently about our making difficulties and finding those terms unacceptable. I do not know whether the hon. Member was present when the Minister of State spoke, but my right hon. and learned Friend made it quite plain that one of the Egyptian terms would have made it quite impossible for us to have fulfilled our obligations towards

  1175
  Israel, namely, the provision that Egypt should have the sole right to decide, or at least a right of veto, about the use to which our stores and installations in the Suez Canal Zone should be put.
  In other words, if they were to be used in fulfilling and exercising our responsibilities towards Israel, then Egypt would have a veto upon the use of them. Therefore, I say that there must be agreement, that Her Majesty's Government must seek to reach agreement, about the future position of the base on the Canal.
  Mr. Crossman: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Nutting: The hon. Member says, "Hear, hear" to me. Why was the Prime Minister's speech called outrageous?
  Mr. Crossman: If the Prime Minister says that the terms on which he will agree are that all the technicians in the base are responsible to London, that violates Egyptian sovereignty. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The hon. Gentleman asked for an answer. It is as stupid and shortsighted as it was when we said that all the installations at Abadan had to be British. I say here and now that if we go on in that way we shall get out ignominiously instead of having a reasonable settlement.
  Mr. Nutting: If we were to accept the Egyptian terms in their entirety—
  Mr. Crossman: I did not say that we should accept them in their entirety.
  Mr. Nutting: —the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that we could not fulfil our obligations to any country in the Middle East. It is for that reason that we have found these terms unacceptable. We cannot fulfil our obligations as defenders and the responsible Power in that area.
  The whole of the hon. Gentleman's speech—whether he was dealing with the Egyptian situation, the African position, the position in South-East Asia, or what he termed our economic independence of the United States—added up to the fact that he advocates a total abandonment of our commitments.
  Mr. Crossman: Absolute nonsense.
  Mr. Nutting: The hon. Member is entitled to that view. As the hon. Member
  1176
  for Cannock (Miss Lee) said, he is entitled to call it a cheap show-off that we should try to defend other people's integrity overseas.
  Miss Lee: If the hon. Gentleman is going to talk about a "cheap show off" he should talk accurately. We do not want to pretend to others that we have greater strength than we really have.
  Mr. Nutting: In that case the hon. Lady herself is advocating a reduction of our commitments.
  Mr. Crossman: Yes—a reduction.
  Mr. Nutting: The hon. Member is entitled to that view, but hon. Members on this side of the House do not share it. As the Prime Minister has said— and I thought he carried the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker) with him—we, just as much as the late Government, have responsibilities to discharge for the defence of the free world. Those responsibilities we must and intend to discharge.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, East said that the Prime Minister's speech was in other respects very different from his speech at Fulton. He said that the Fulton speech advocated a cold war and rearmament in the West. I thought he did less than justice to the efforts of the propagandists for the Soviet Union in the Communist Party, and also less than justice to the efforts of the late Government to galvanise production by the people of this country in the rearmament effort which, as the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) and the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Daines) said, helped in no small way to bring about what we hope will prove to be at least a lull in international tension. I think that this lull was in many ways directly due to that policy, courageously followed by our predecessors. The Fulton speech was the reply to those who had already started the cold war. Yesterday's speech by the Prime Minister was the response to what we hope is a new breeze blowing upon the world.
  The hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) and the hon. Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle) raised a point which was subsequently followed by the

  1177
  right hon. Member for Greenock. They seemed to find some considerable inconsistencies between what the Prime Minister said about a conference among the leading Powers and what he said about our policy in Germany. The hon. Member for Devonport said:
  "The Prime Minister could have made the statement that he made about Germany today six months ago…."
  and that:
  "Apparently nothing is to be altered in out attitude to Germany by the changes which have taken place in Russia in recent weeks."
  He went on to suggest that the Government intended to go into negotiations with the Russians about Europe and the future of Germany on the basis of saying:
  "Now you must agree to free elections in East Germany, but we are going ahead with the proposal that the whole of that Germany, when it is united, shall still remain incorporated in the Western defence system."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th May, 1953; Vol. 515, c. 957–8.]
  He added that if this country were to take the lead in putting forward some propositions about negotiations on Germany we should recognise that some concessions would have to come from our side. Let me get it quite straight, because he invited me to state the Government's attitude.
  I really do not think that the carefully chosen words of the Prime Minister can in any way be interpreted as prejudging the situation which must follow from the reunification of Germany. Neither we nor the other occupying Powers in Western Germany have signed our names to any document or to any treaty which in any way prejudges the situation. That was the situation as described by the Foreign Secretary last year in the ratification debate. That is, of course, still the situation. What the Prime Minister said was that we would assure Dr. Adenauer when he came to London that Western Germany will not in any way be sacrificed, or cease to be master of its own fortunes within the agreements we and the other N.A.T.O. countries have made with it: Western Germany, not reunited Germany; that is the whole point —not reunited Germany.
  I would draw the attention of the House to the exchange of Notes between the Western Governments and the Soviet Government last year upon the subject. In this exchange of views the position of
  1178
  the two sides is both clearly defined and. I am sorry to say, equally clearly divided. Our position, the British position, is that we want to see free elections throughout Germany; free elections for an all-German Government, which should then take part as a free and equal participant in the negotiation of a peace treaty. That, I believe, is a genuine proposition to get a genuinely reunited Germany. The Russian position is pretty well exactly the reverse, that the four occupying Powers should discuss the German peace treaty before an all-German Government is set up.
  It follows from what I have said about our position that, in our view, the all-German Government which results from those free elections should be free to decide its own international relationship. That is our position. All that we have done on the Western side is to leave the door open to the adherence of an all-German Government to the Western European community. That is not, after all, a very unnatural or unreasonable or unfair proposition for us to make. But, of course, the Soviets have not yet replied to our last Note. It is getting a little late. It is dated 23rd September, 1952. It would not be difficult, as the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) said yesterday, and it would cost them nothing, if they were to reply to that Note and to agree to have free all-German elections.
  Of course, there is another side to all this talk. We are told that we must make concessions over German rearmament to get agreement with the Soviet Union. That suggestion has been constantly repeated during this debate. But what about the Soviet side? The Leader of the Opposition had some words to say about this. I would remind the House that there is in Western Germany today not one single German soldier under arms, and that even if the E.D.C. were ratified and brought into effect tomorrow it would still take a year before there were any trained German troops in that field.
  But what of the Eastern Zone? This hardly presents a picture of disarmed pacifism. True, the East Germans now under arms are called the People's Police Force, but, to say the least, it is an odd type of police force. It numbers, in all. over 100,000 men, of whom 6,000 are

  1179
  in an air force, 4,000 in a naval force, and about 90,000 in land forces. The air force consists of a divisional headquarters with three subordinate fighter regiments each equipped with about 30 propeller driven training aircraft, and there is evidence to show that pilot training has been proceeding in recent months.
  The land force—a police force, mark you—includes one Army corps of one armoured division and two infantry divisions numbering 40,000 men and 18 independent regiments. These forces are supplied with Russian equipment including guns, 600 tanks, mostly Soviet T34s, 250 self-propelled guns, including howitzers—for police forces—field and antitank guns, 150 armoured vehicles, 1,700 other guns including mortars and antiaircraft guns, and about 4,000 other vehicles.
  All these weapons are Soviet types, some of which are now being manufactured in German factories in Eastern Germany. What is more, these formations are of such a type and of such a composition, with a very high contingent of officers and n.c.o.s, far larger than would be needed in an ordinary army, as to render the force capable of considerable expansion at fairly short notice.
  Mr. Bellenger: Has the hon. Gentleman seen the report in the "Manchester Guardian" today that these forces are to be linked up with the Czechoslovak forces?
  Mr. Nutting: There are, of course, various suggestions and reports to the effect that this force may be linked with others, but I would prefer not to comment on this particular suggestion at the moment.
  I think that the picture I have presented shows that this force is of a fairly formidable size. I would add that the recruitment of this force began as long ago as July, 1948, when the first recruits were enlisted from among German prisoners of war in Russian hands. It can be hardly doubted that what has happened since, and the considerable military forces that have resulted, represents a long-term systematic plan for the raising of armed forces in Eastern Germany, which was put in hand two
  1180
  years before the West decided even in principle to agree on a West German armed contribution.
  When we talk about concessions from our side, it is as well that we should keep a sense of balance by recalling what has been done by the other side, and when we are asked to make concessions in advance of a conference let us not forget that during the discussion at the Palais Rose two years ago the Russians and the East German Communists did not in any way retard the building up of this East German force.
  It was, no doubt, because of these recollections that there has been general agreement on both sides of the House that while we all hope the apparent change in the Soviet attitude will lead to some settlement of outstanding issues, in the meantime we must go on with our defensive preparations under N.A.T.O. Apparently in this policy we carry with us the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker) and the Opposition Front Bench.
  The House will recall that a German armed contribution to the E.D.C. is an integral part of the N.A.T.O. arrangements. This has certainly been accepted by the present Government and firmly and forthrightly stated in the Washington Declaration of 1951 by our predecessors. I agree with the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) and the right hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil) that there can be no greater folly at this moment than to abandon in advance of a conference any of the unity and strength which we have built up and are still building up in Western Europe.
  We must, of course, test the Soviet attitude in every way open to us, both at a conference at the highest level and in negotiations on individual oustanding issues, such as the Austrian State Treaty. Whether this is a change in tactics or strategy we do not know, but whatever it may be it must be clearly put to the test. It is a novel doctrine in diplomatic negotiations and would, I believe, be fatal at the present time if we were to relax our efforts merely upon the basis of an untested and as yet unfulfilled hope.
  These efforts and the unity and strength which they have achieved have been the product of many years of patient labour and statesmanship by all the Governments

  1181
  concerned, supported, and indeed, spurred on, by the peoples whom they represent.
  Much of these efforts resulted from the genuine and compelling need of the European peoples to combine together for their economic recovery after six years of war and devastation and was only later followed by the urge for self-preservation in the face of the Soviet military threat.
  It is sometimes said that the only thing which has saved and preserved Europe in the last few years has been the superiority of the United States in the possession of atomic weapons. To say the least, I think this is a considerable over-simplification. Nobody who has had anything to do with European politics in the last eight years could help being impressed by the way in which confidence has been revived in Western Europe by the development of new unities and ties between the countries of Western Europe. Military and atomic superiority has played its part, but it is not everything and cannot mean everything.
  All the processes of European cooperation, both the wider and looser associations of N.A.T.O. and O.E.E.C., and, indeed, the closer knit co-operation of the Coal and Steel and Defence Communities, have, of course, been helped forward by American support and encouraged by the fact of American strength. But they have also in an essential degree resulted from a new resolution among the Powers of Western Europe to seek political and economic strength and stability through new forms of international co-operation. Surely no one would suggest that as the essential pre-condition of seeking, with those who have so far rejected co-operation, a new and maybe world-wide unity, we should jettison the unity which we have forged with those who for the last eight years have worked with us and not against us. This unity of the West, of the free world, has never been a threat to anyone. It has never been exclusive. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, South truly said yesterday, it has all been within the ambit of the United Nations and in no way in conflict with the Charter. As such it must and will be preserved.
  It is true, as some hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt), pointed out yesterday, that
  1182
  the momentum of continental European unity has slowed down considerably over the last few months. There are hesitations in France about ratifying the E.D.C. Treaty. But I would not agree with the hon. Member that we have lost the European Defence Community for ever, or even that no progress can be made until after a conference among the great Powers has taken place. Neither do I agree with him that any solution can be devised for the problem of German rearmament which is a halfway house between E.D.C. and N.A.T.O. I sympathise with his aim, but after much study of the problem I cannot see how it can be fulfilled. Therefore, if the solution is not to be E.D.C, it must be N.A.T.O., and N.A.T.O. involves a German national army, and the French have opposed, and would oppose, that solution, and for that matter the Federal German Government said that they did not want it either.
  Therefore, we come back to E.D.C. as the only answer to the problem. We see and understand, of course, the difficulties of France, difficulties which are complicated by Indo-China. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenock asked me whether we were talking with the French about means of solving their problems. We are now engaged in conversations with France and the other E.D.C. members in a study of practical measures for bringing Britain into the closest political, as well as military, association with the Defence Community. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we already have very close association with the Coal and Steel Community. We hope that these arrangements might form a useful pattern for the kind of arrangements that we should like to see developing with the Defence Community together with association at all levels, parliamentary, executive, and ministerial.
  When we add these proposals that we are making towards the European Defence Community to those which we have already made for military co-operation, which the Prime Minister outlined yesterday, and we add to this sum the guarantees that we have given to defend the integrity of the E.D.C. and of its members, I do not think that anyone can represent us as withholding from Western Europe any co-operation or support which it lies in our power to give.

  1183
  I realise that until the E.D.C. comes into being, all that we have proposed and said and declared, all the guarantees that we have given to it, are merely ideas and texts. But once the Community is functioning, Europe will have before it concrete and visible proof of our British partnership, a partnership which will be as close and endurable as anything snort of full membership could devise. That is our position, our special relationship to Europe, a position of comradeship and leadership which no other nation can fulfil. That is what links the European Community to the wider and broader associations of the Atlantic Community, N.A.T.O. In the shifting tides of international relationship, that is the rock upon which we in Britain seek to build a peace.
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

  HOSPITAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question put (pursuant to Standing Order No. 60 (Public Bills relating exclusively to Scotland)), "That the Bill be committed to the Scottish Standing Committee."—[Mr. J. Stuart.]
  Question agreed to.
  Bill (deemed to have been read a Second time) committed to the Scottish Standing Committee.

  EGGS AND FEEDINGSTUFFS
  10.1 p.m.
  Mrs. Barbara Castle: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Eggs Order, 1953, (S.I., 1953, No. 529), dated 24th March, 1953, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th March, be annulled.
  May I have your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether it would be in order to discuss this Prayer with the Prayer which follows that also stands in the name of my hon. Friends?
  Mr. Speaker: I think, if the House agrees, it would be convenient for Members to take these two Prayers together, that is the one dealing with eggs and the one dealing with feedingstuffs.
  Mrs. Castle: This morning in my "News Chronicle" I read a most mouthwatering recipe headed, "Take the yolks of five eggs." It was not even a recipe for a main dish for a hungry family of half a dozen people. It was merely a recipe for a super sauce which could be served with hot trout, cold salmon or anything that took one's fancy. We were also kindly advised in the same column what to do with the whites of eggs. We were informed that we could make meringues of them and serve with a fruit salad so obligingly made available by this Mrs. Beaton Government.
  I frankly admit that this recipe made my mouth water, and I cut it out of the paper and filed it away, thinking as I did so that it would have to be a very rare, remarkable and noteworthy occasion, such as for example the defeat of the present Government, before I could feel entitled to try to afford such a dish. I also felt as I filed it away that the vast majority of my constituents would never be able to afford it at all.
  This recipe is symbolic of a new era into which we are moving, an era in which there is a great appearance of well-being and plenty being created by Government policies. But it is also an era in which, in fact, the standards of nutrition of the masses of our people are on the decline. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food boasted in this House that freedom has brought goods into the shops in great quantities. That is a typical Tory remark. Under

  1185
  the Conservative Government of pre-war days there was always plenty in the shops, but what the Labour Government worked for and achieved was that we should not so much put food in the shops as put it in the larders.
  On the contrary, what the Conservative Government of this post-war period has achieved is a drop in food consumption, which is clearly shown in the Economic Survey, because that Survey makes it clear that during the first year of Conservative rule the average consumption of calories in this country fell below 3,000 per day for the first time since 1949, and we also had a drop in the amount of oil, fats, sugar, eggs and dairy produce eaten by our people.
  This fall in food consumption was directly due to increases in food prices under the Conservative Government and to the rise in the cost of living generally. The reason why we are praying against these two Orders tonight is because they carry still further the process of withdrawing food subsidies and removing price controls. The Feeding Stuffs (Prices) Order gives effect to price increases which have become necessary as a result of the withdrawal of a subsidy which operated last year and which ran to the tune of £18 million. It is the first link in a chain of decontrol which will reach its climax on 31st July, when all controls over the prices and distribution of feedingstuffs will be removed.
  In the Annual Review of Farm Prices which the Government published last March it was stated that the removal of this subsidy, together with other increases, would cause an average rise in costs of about £2 10s. a ton. This higher price of feedingstuffs is one of the elements in the higher cost of production which has been allowed for in the Review, and it means that this year we shall have to pay £15½ million more to our farmers for the essential foods which we have to eat.
  This increase in the price of food has still to be felt by the housewife. It is not yet reflected in the prices in the shops, and that is a very sorry prospect indeed. It will give a further upward push to the spiral of rising prices, and it is a poor consolation to the housewife, as she faces this prospect, to be told that the Government propose to cheapen the price of the refrigerators to keep the food in which she cannot afford to buy.
  1186
  What will happen to the prices of feedingstuffs when all controls are removed on 31st July nobody on the Government side has been prepared to prophesy. All that the White Paper does is to admit frankly that it is impossible to predict the course of cereal and feedingstuffs prices after decontrol. What a fine way to plan the food policy of this country. It is another example of the way in which, under a weak Minister of Food, this Government are abandoning all attempts to safeguard the nutritional standards of this country, to protect the housewife, and to see that we have a healthy and adequately fed population to face the storms of life that lie ahead. Far from fighting the battle of the food of the people, the miserable Minister is spending all his time planning Departmental suicide, and the method he would appear to have chosen is an overdose of sleeping tablets which has obviously already started to take effect.
  Higher prices for feedingstuffs will mean higher costs of production for eggs. and it is on the Eggs Order that I shall concentrate tonight. It is an Order in which is embodied the whole process of decontrol. If we study it we can get a picture of the way in which the Government are proposing to apply their new policy of freedom to agriculture. If we study this plan for eggs, we discover that the Government definition of freedom is a very curious one indeed.
  The Parliamentary Secretary must have been a little surprised that we have chosen to pray against the Eggs Order, because the Conservative Party believe that they are sitting pretty on eggs. Indeed, they have planned this operation "egg emancipation" with very great care. They chose to free eggs from distribution controls on 26th March, which, as everyone knows, is at the beginning of the normal spring flush period of egg production at home. Last year, when controls and allocations were operating, home production exceeded 11 million dozen eggs per week for a period of four weeks in the spring flush and we are told that home production should be higher this year.
  In addition, the Ministry have been buying quite a large quantity of eggs from abroad. We were told by the Parliamentary Secretary in the House yesterday that since 26th March he has

  1187
  placed a contract for 65 million eggs from Poland, that he is negotiating for supplies from Australia, South Africa and the Irish Republic, and this is in addition to the earlier contract with Denmark. What the Government are doing is to float future policy on a temporary tide of eggs. The Minister is hoping by this process to be able to bemuse housewives by this appearance of abundance as though the greater output of eggs by our hens had come as a result of the stimulus of Tory Government, or incentives of "Mr. Butler's Budget," or something of that sort.
  The freedom he is now selling to the housewives in the story which is being spread—"Look what freedom does for you. Now you can buy all the eggs you want. We have set the housewives free" —is a phoney freedom. It is a policy which is not directed towards helping the housewife at all but is directed towards helping the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In the name of killing the black market in eggs, what the Government have done is to kill the egg subsidy. The purpose of this decontrol policy is, first and foremost, to save the Chancellor of the Exchequer £23 million in subsidies which went directly to cheapen the cost of living for the housewives.
  What does the housewife get out of the decontrol policy? There is a temporary flush but even so—this fact is already beginning to seep into the consciousness of the housewife—at this flush period she is already paying more than she paid for subsidised eggs last year. The Parliamentary Secretary admitted in answer to a Question yesterday that although at Easter the price was below that of last year it had risen since. An hon. Friend of mine said that grade A eggs were fetching 5s. 3d. a dozen.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey) had hoped to be with us tonight. He has taken a keen interest in the egg situation and other problems. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary misses him greatly on this occasion but he decided that he would be better employed fighting the battle of the housewife in the Sunderland by-election. I have had a telegram from him regretting his inability to be present and pointing out
  1188
  that the price of eggs in Sunderland has risen to 5s. 6d. a dozen. I hope that the housewife in Sunderland will take the opportunity of exposing the fallacies of the Parliamentary Secretary.
  What a prospect lies before the housewife. She may temporarily be bemused while she plays with her five yolks in her super sauce, but, if we have already reached a situation in which grade A eggs at the peak of the flush period are 5s. 6d. a dozen, what is the prospect for next winter when scarcity comes?
  It is now beginning to be appreciated by the housewife that although decontrol at the moment may not be very dangerous because there is this temporary abundance, she will face the winter blasts of egg scarcity and higher prices shorn of the protection of the price controls which the Labour Government gave. The really scandalous thing about the policy outlined in this Order is that it gives the housewife freedom to be exploited while it gives complete protection to the producer and packer of eggs. The housewife is unprotected and the producer and the packer are protected.
  What does this new policy of the Conservative Government imply? Producers will be expected still to send all their graded eggs to packing stations but they will be allowed to sell ungraded eggs to consumers at whatever price they can get. The Government are underwriting the packing stations who have to accept all eggs offered to them and are compelled to pay a minimum price which is to average throughout the year 4s. a dozen and which is never to fall below 3s. 6d. a dozen. These packing stations will be operating on behalf of the Ministry of Food which will carry any loss involved in disposing of the eggs which the packing stations will be compelled to accept. But the packer, if he wishes, may buy at higher than the minimum price. So that protection comes to the producer who never gets less than a certain figure, but if he wants to exploit the scarcity he may get a higher figure, and the sky is the limit.
  In addition, to assist the packers, many of whom have had no previous experience in selling, the present machinery of the Ministry of Food is being retained for the time being. This includes a market intelligence network, a containers

  1189
  pool from which packing materials are supplied, and if a packer finds that he cannot dispose of his eggs he can offer them to the National Egg Marketing organisation who give him disposal instructions and fix a price with him for the service.
  From the producer's point of view, these arrangements could hardly be improved because the Government are giving him a guaranteed market but they are setting no ceiling on his profits. The producer may sell to the consumer at any price he likes, but if he chooses to go to a packing station the packing station must accept his offer and must give him the guaranteed price. The packers are doing very well out of this. They literally cannot fail. They cannot be exposed to any of the cold blasts of competition or insecurity. They buy on their own account if they can make a profit out of it, and if they cannot make a profit they buy and sell on the Ministry's account and hand the baby back to the Ministry.
  The only person who remains unprotected in this situation is the housewife. In an agricultural debate in this House on 2nd February, the Ministry of Agriculture, in seeking to justify these new decontrol policies, in good old Tory language said:
  "…we shall enable the healthy wind of enterprise, initiative and freedom to sweep away the cobwebs of 12 years of control."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1953; Vol. 510, c. 1597.]
  Well, the cobwebs will be gathering unchecked in the henhouses and in the packing stations. It is not the cobwebs which will be swept away. All that will be swept away is the protection for the housewives.
  This freedom is to be strangely limited, because the freedom which is not being given to private enterprise, the field in which initiative and competition is not to be allowed, is in the import of eggs. The Ministry of Food will retain for itself complete control over the import of eggs and the sale of imported eggs. We know that is not due to currency considerations because freedom to import is given back in the case of cereals. Therefore there is some other reason.
  The Ministry wants this control because it wishes to regulate the market against the housewife. This is how it
  1190
  will work. If the price of eggs looks like falling very low, if it appears that decontrol and abundance will bring down prices to an extent to which the housewife really could take the yolks of five eggs to make her sauce, the Ministry are in great danger of having to pay out sums of money through its Treasury guarantee of a minimum price to producers.
  So the Ministry retain control over an important section of our egg consumption, because egg imports last year amounted to 25 per cent. of our total egg consumption. That control is left with the Ministry to enable them to do one of two things. Either it can restrict imports and therefore maintain price; reduce the competition and safeguard the producer in that way without the Treasury having to pay out large sums; or alternatively, the Ministry can control the price at which imported eggs are sold at such a level that the price of home-produced eggs does not fall too low.
  I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary in all these contracts he was telling us about yesterday—65 million eggs from Poland; extensive quantities from Australia and South Africa and the Irish Republic—
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: And the Gambia?
  Mrs. Castle: If the hon. Gentleman catches Mr. Speaker's eye he may have some intelligent contribution to make. I appreciate that I am asking a question which the hon. Gentleman does not want clearly stated or answered. I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he will guarantee to pass on to the housewife the eggs he is importing at the price he is paying for them. If he will not do that, will he tell us what is his policy for the sale of these imported eggs and at what price level? What kind of profit is he getting?
  I suggest that the issue facing us because of this Order is a very simple one. We should tell the housewives of Sunderland, and of Britain as a whole, that as a result of Conservative policy they are subsidising the producer instead of being subsidised themselves. They will be subsidising the producer as taxpayers, when they have to foot the Treasury bill for giving the producer his

  1191
  guarantee. At the same time the housewife will be paying through the nose when the winter scarcity comes and there is no ceiling to the profit which the producers can make. Alternatively, if she is not subsidising the producer as a tax-payer, she will be subsidising him by paying a hidden tax on imported eggs which the Ministry of Food will be selling above the economic price.
  I conclude on this note of warning and great seriousness. The last thing this country can afford is a drop in the nutritional standards of its people. It is no measure of the success of the Parliamentary Secretary or his Department to say that shops are full of eggs. What will be a measure of his success will be the figures of egg consumption in this country by the end of next year.
  Housewives are paying 5s. 6d. a dozen for eggs at a peak period. What level will the price reach in the scarcity of next winter? Has the Parliamentary Secretary any idea? Will it be 8d. or 9d. or 10d. each? I prophesy that a price of 5½d. at a peak period must mean a price of 8d. or 9d. when winter scarcity sets in. In that case, the housewives of Britain will not be able to afford even the two or three or four eggs a week they used to get under the allocation scheme.
  I ask the House to reject the two Orders which are part of the whole policy of this Government to make the price of the food of our people dearer and to create a phoney appearance of plenty.
  10.26 p.m.
  Sir Leslie Plummer rose—
  Colonel Malcolm Stoddart - Scott: Gambia.
  Sir L. Plummer: I beg to second the Motion.
  I must declare an interest—
  Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Gambia.
  Sir L. Plummer: —in that when it was quite clear that the Ministry intended to remove the general control of eggs and to decontrol the price, together with many other farmers I bought a lot of pullets, for quite clearly a new racket had begun. [Interruption.] The hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Colonel Stoddart-
  1192
  Scott) has said "Gambia" 15 times in the last 30 seconds. If he has a contribution to make and if he can articulate another word, I will give way to him immediately—if he wants to add to the debate, and if he can add to the debate.
  I decided that the thing to do was to go in for pullets, as clearly from now on we egg producers, provided the Government did not make an unholy mess of it, were going to make a pretty considerable profit out of the situation. Of course, our interest was not that of the housewife. As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle) said, the housewife is paying the subsidy out of her own pocket.
  Both as producers and as consumers of eggs we have had sufficient experience since the control was removed to enable me to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give us the answers to some questions which I put to him and which are of considerable importance to the housewives of this country. First, is it not a fact that quite recently he has been unloading on the trade at a much higher price Polish eggs for which he paid 22s. 6d. a long hundred? In case the hon. Member for the Gambia does not know, a long hundred is 120 eggs, so that 22s. 6d. a long hundred is roughly 2¼d. each.
  Is it not a fact that the Ministry has been unloading those eggs on the trade at something between 4d. and 4½d. each, according to the size of the egg? Was not that, in all the circumstances, outdoing the black market? Was it not really taking the housewife for a ride—the housewife who had been promised by the Ministry there was no reason at all why there should be any great profiteering in eggs or why the price of eggs should rise?
  My second question is this. Will the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that these eggs were unloaded at this artificially high price—in relation to what the Poles were paid for them—in order to save the Government the cost of the guarantee on eggs; that is to say, they were released in sufficient quantities to maintain the price of eggs instead of in sufficient quantities to reduce the price of eggs to the housewife? Thirdly, was it not as a result of the fact that the eggs were sold at this price that, last week, the retailers of this country were left

  1193
  with a very considerable amount? My fourth question is: Did not the National Egg Marketing Organisation, the chairman of which is a member of the hon. Gentleman's Ministry, reduce the price this week by 3s. per long hundred as a result of this?
  This is an illustration of the mess and muddle into which the Government have got themselves over the egg scheme. First of all, they tried so to raise the price of Polish eggs on the home market as to save the subsidy on eggs, and, finding that they had raised it too high, did, in fact, so organise the matter that the price of English eggs fell by 3s. per long hundred. The fact is that the Ministry has been saving the subsidy at the expense of the housewife, and so it will go on.
  The proposition for the home market now is that the Minister will see to it that he does not have to come into the market and support the subsidy. That means that the English farmer and egg producer will get a price for their eggs which is higher than last year's price, that the Minister will be able to unload the eggs coming from abroad at a similar price, and that the housewife will find that once again eggs are outside her reach, or at least outside the reach of the working-class housewife.
  On the question of feedingstuffs, what is the Minister going to do to help the poor farmer who was promised by this Government that, if he voted for them, they would see to it that he was released from the dreadful forms and controls which were making his life an absolute misery? We were told over and over again, in the House of Commons and in the newspapers, that the farmer was unable to go out into the fields to do his work on his land because he had to sit at a desk filling in forms, and had to supply snoopers and Government Departments with information which they did not need. Now, we have a different Government, and the task of the farmer has been made easier—how much easier I now propose to show to hon. Members.
  The Feedingstuffs Order shows how to calculate the maximum price per hundredweight of feedingstuffs from now on. It is not a question of going to a dealer and saying, "How much is it per
  1194
  hundredweight?" Not a bit of it. This is what the poor farmer, who hitherto has been inhibited from doing his work, now has to do, and, remember, the poor farmer has no adding machine or abacus or any of those automatic aids to help him. This is what he has to do.
  He first has to ascertain the basic price, plus the permitted additions per ton made by his supplier. Easy. Next, he has to deduct any charge per ton made by his supplier for credit. Then he has to deduct any charge made for handling. Not knowing this, he has to get out his tractor and go down to the town to find out how much is the charge per ton for handling. And if he is not satisfied he has to ask the supplier for an invoice, check to see how much it costs to handle the supplies and then take any charges which may have been made by his supplier for sales in small lots and for packing in quantities of less than one hundredweight. After this he adds in transport charges incurred over and above this made by the supplier. Then he has to convert all this to a one hundredweight figure and, to that figure, add 1s. 9d. per hundredweight lots.
  He is supposed to be able to do all that and produce the food of this country. It is no wonder that for the first time since 1940 the farmers of this country are really worried. Not only are feeding-stuff prices to be raised against them, not only is there insecurity in the industry, but they are asked to make mathematical calculations which are seldom found outside the universities of this country. I hope the House will support my hon. Friend's Motion.
  Mr. Harmar Nicholls: The hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) has suggested that there has been no alleviation from form filling for the farmers. Does he not accept that form filling has been reduced by about a third?
  Sir L. Plummer: I do not know that it has been reduced by one third; it has been reduced to one third. That was not my point. The forms that were hitherto being produced have now been reduced, to the great detriment of the Ministry, which is now short of vital statistics. If they had them, it would have prevented them making the ghastly errors they are making at the moment.
  10.38 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: After listening to the dissertation upon the alleged difficulties of the English farmer by the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) we can well understand how he succeeded in losing £40 million of the taxpayers' money in ground nuts schemes and the abortive attempt to produce eggs in Gambia. March 26th was an important day in the history of this nation—[An HON. MEMBER: "Which year?"] The hon. Member has clearly not read the Order. The date on which the Order we are discussing came into operation was 26th March, 1953. It was an important day because it saw the end of that abracadabra of bureaucracy, the Eggs Control, created by the late but not lamented Minister of Food the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford, Central (Mr. Webb). He endeavoured to keep in being an unworkable system of rationing eggs. The reason it was unworkable could clearly be found in an examination of the statistics which the hon. Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle), who moved this Motion, forgot to mention, that out of every 100 eggs produced in this country during the period of the late Socialist Government only 45 reached the packing stations.
  Mr. Percy Shurmer: Because people who could afford them created a black market.
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member, who is eternally wrong in all matters, says it was because people who could afford to buy them snaffled them and created a black market. Is that so? In fact it was quite legal for any person with fewer than 25 hens to sell eggs to whom he chose without sending the eggs to the packing station. Nobody has ever succeeded in saying, with any degree of accuracy, how many out of the 55 per cent. of the eggs produced that did not reach the packing stations were accounted for by these small producers. I believe that a very large number were so accounted for. There was no control over them. Thus the rationing system was, in itself abortive, unworkable and the product of a diseased Socialist mind.
  Mr. M. Follick: Would the hon. Gentleman quote the source of the figure of 55 per cent. which he has just mentioned?
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Gentleman has been in this House since 1945 but has not taken the trouble to follow the course of Parliamentary Questions on this delectable subject of shell eggs. Had he watched my activities in the matter he would have discerned the figure in the answers to Parliamentary Questions on shell eggs. [Interruption.] An hon. Gentleman opposite interrupts to say that he wishes he had a few shell eggs.
  Mr. Shurmer: Rotten ones.
  Mr. Nabarro: I would remind the hon. Gentleman that in the constituency that I represent the eggs were not thrown at me in the last Election but at the Socialist.
  The second factor which the hon. Lady conveniently omitted to mention in dealing with shell eggs was how much it cost to attempt to ration them. Something of the order of £1,350,000 was spent in the last fiscal year on administration alone. Out of that figure, more than £1 million was the administrative cost of the Eggs Division of the Ministry of Food, and something of the order of £350,000 was the cost of the complementary organisation, the National Egg Distributors' Association, Ltd., which was responsible for certain operations at the packing stations and so on. Nearly £1½ million per annum was being spent in an effort to operate what was proving to be a totally abortive system.
  Mrs. Castle: Would the hon. Gentleman give us any estimate of what will be the administrative cost of operating a guaranteed minimum price scheme? If it is administrative saving the hon. Gentleman is anxious for, why not have complete freedom for the price to touch bottom as well as top, and also take the control out of the hands of the Ministry of Food?
  Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making my case for me. In the wisdom of a Conservative Administration, one step will be taken at a time. This Order sweeps away a great deal of unnecessary control in the matter of shell eggs. I estimate that within a period of 12 to 15 months it should be possible to restore the completely free market that the hon. Lady espouses and so ardently yearns for. On this side of the House we are delighted that my right hon. and gallant Friend has taken this courageous step at such an early date in the history

  1197
  of this Parliament in freeing eggs as far as possible. If a measure of control remains, I feel confident that it will not remain for any great length of time.
  Now one word on feedingstuffs. I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman who referred to the farmers' difficulties in the matter of the revised arrangements for feedingstuffs has any real knowledge of the matter. He has not a farm in his constituency, and I doubt whether he has a blade of green grass. I can say from personal contact with scores of farmers in Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and the Midlands counties, that there is nothing the farmers welcomed more than the announcement of the abolition of the feedingstuffs rationing system.
  These farmers recognise that in the early days of a free market there may be a small increase in price. The increase in price today is about £2 to £2 10s. a ton; but that should not last long. That price increase will rapidly disappear; and with the added impetus of several hundred thousand tons of additional feedingstuffs grown in this country as a result of the ploughing up subsidy and the policy of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, not only will there be an abundance of feedingstuffs, a free market in feedingstuffs, and the end of the misery of controls created by the Party opposite, but in the passage of time there should be a much lower price. That will benefit not only the primary producer, but the housewife and consumers.
  I have no doubt that any attempt to negative this Order will be defeated in the Lobbies tonight.
  Mr. Shurmer: Obviously.
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member says "obviously." How many times in the last Parliament did he and his hon. Friends feel sleepy and go home and leave the Government, their Government, to be defeated? [HON. MEMBERS: "HOW many?"] Very many times. [Interruption.] Three or four times at least. We welcome these important Orders. We hope not only that there will not be any more Ministry of Food Orders 12 months from now, but that the Minister of Food and the Parliamentary Secretary will, metaphorically speaking, have cut their respective Ministerial throats.
  10.47 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Moyle: I do not propose to attempt to compete with the pyrotechnics of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tell the House where the housewife comes into this eggs Order. I have gone through the Order carefully, and I can find therein no advantage so far as the consumer is concerned. I can understand that, because as far as I am aware there was no consultation undertaken by the Ministry of Food with any of the organisations competent to advise it. Was that because of the chilly reception of the National Farmers' Union? There was no consultation with the representatives of the poultry industry, an industry having an annual egg and poultry meat output of about £142 million.
  When one looks at the composition of the National Egg Marketing Committee, what does one find? Do we find any consumer interests represented on the Committee? Of course not. We find it dominated by distributive interests. There are 11 members concerned with distribution, and there are only five who are concerned with the interests of the producers. By way of parenthesis, I would say that I agree that a producer who does a job of work is entitled to a fair return for his work. There is no representative from the consumers, but there are 10 representatives from the Ministry. How can one expect an Order devised by the Ministry without any consultation with the representative consumer organisations to be of any benefit to the housewives?
  Why not have a representative of the T.U.C. or, if the Parliamentary Secretary would find that awkward, why not recognise the principle of consumer representation by inviting the Housewives' League to send a representative? I do not mind the Minister of Food telling the nation that he is out to bring about a reduction in the price of eggs, but where is the evidence? It is certainly not in the Order.
  Now we come to another aspect of this matter, which flows from the fact that this Committee is packed with distributive interests. I know the Parliamentary Secretary will not dissent from that statement, because the organisations from which representatives are selected are

  1199
  definitely of a distributive character, or are concerned with distributive interests. It is true that the Poultry Association have recently secured representation. That was a good thing, because they are people who can advise the Ministry upon the industry and the distribution of eggs and all that is involved, but why not go a step further and see that the consumer is directly represented on that Committee?
  I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to go into the question of costs of distribution. Why is it—as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle) said—that in Sunderland this week eggs were being sold at 5s. 6d. a dozen? That compares with the price of 4s. 1d. which is charged to the producer. Where do the costs of distribution go? I cannot explain that, and I do not think the Ministry can explain it intelligently. I am also advised by the small retailers that out of every dozen eggs sold over the counter the total profit is 4d. a dozen. If that is so there is a case for the Ministry to see whether we cannot reduce the cost of distribution— the difference between the price paid to the producer and that charged to the consumer—as a means of bringing about a reduction in the price of eggs.
  I hope that in his reply to the debate the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with the two points I have raised, the appointment of a representative to the central committee to represent the consumer, and the question why the costs are so great for distribution in relation to what is paid to the producer and charged to the consumer.
  10.55 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): The hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle), in her exciting speech—
  Mr. Follick: Exhilarating.
  Dr. Hill: —in her, yes, exhilarating speech, raised serious issues, and I propose to deal with them seriously, although there is something about eggs and sausages that seems to arouse hilarity. In her examination of the topic there were two things the hon. Lady omitted, one completely, the other partly.
  1200
  The first was that the scheme of egg allocation under which the Ministry, through its agents, purchased and distributed eggs right through the chain, had broken down.
  Mr. J. McGovern: Why?
  Dr. Hill: Because eggs were being sold from the farm to the consumer—
  Mr. McGovern: On the black market?
  Dr. Hill: Yes, the black market, so called—to a remarkable extent. Faced with the situation in which the scheme of allocation had clearly broken down because of the extensive black market, faced with criticisms in this House week after week by Members on both sides, my right hon. and gallant Friend decided he could no longer be responsible for a system of so-called allocation.
  Mrs. Castle: The hon. Gentleman will remember that at the same time as Questions were being asked in this House proposals were put to the Minister of ways of dealing with the problem that were not taken up.
  Dr. Hill: Yes, more enforcement was one. Another was a proposal put up by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford, Central (Mr. Webb), not, I think, in the House, though it may have been, that feedingstuffs should be allocated in proportion to the numbers of eggs sent to the packing stations. That proposal was incomplete because it in no way dealt with the farmer who grew his own feedingstuffs. There can be no effective control over him by that method. That was one objection to the proposal, which was seriously examined.
  My right hon. and gallant Friend decided that the way to deal with this growing black market was to initiate once more a free market in eggs. Criticism has been levelled against the time he chose to do it. I doubt whether any other Government of any other colour, having determined on this decontrol, would have done it at any time but that of the flush period.
  Let us face it. The producer is now free to sell to the domestic consumer, and the domestic consumer is free to obtain all the eggs she can, and purchase directly from the producer. I think that is more consistent with human nature than the old system which broke down.

  1201
  After all, there is a fundamental difference between the two sides of the House. We believe in the free market. We believe that the old system, which sought to imitate the free market by the adjustment of prices throughout the year, so paying tribute to the method of the free market, failed because of its rigidity.
  Having determined on the free market, then my right hon. and gallant Friend was called upon to implement the Agriculture Act, 1947, put forward by the Socialist Party and supported by both sides of the House of Commons. The hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn, East said some really remarkable things. She wanted freedom to touch the bottom in this matter of market prices. Is she renouncing the whole structure of the guaranteed price for the farmers of this country? Is she speaking for the party opposite when she says that? The main substance of the second part of her attack was to deny the guarantee and the security which was given to the farming community of this country by the Act passed under a Socialist administration.
  Mrs. Castle: Surely I made myself clear enough for the hon. Gentleman to realise that what I was saying was that it is wrong to give a producer the security of the floor if he is not going to accept also the check on the ceiling.
  Dr. Hill: Having determined on a policy of a free market, the way to implement the Agriculture Act was to institute a floor price, which is, as the hon. Lady rightly said, an average price of 4s. throughout the year, varying from 3s. 6d. to 5s. according to the season. That policy of the floor price was absolutely necessary to give expression in the conditions of a free market to the undertakings which this House, as a whole, had given to the farming community.
  Mr. Wedgwood Benn rose—
  Dr. Hill: I want to develop quite a considerable argument, and I know the House does not want to be kept too long.
  Mr. Benn: In fairness, it was the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) who said that in a short time after this
  1202
  step had been taken of abolishing the ceiling the floor would be abolished, too.
  Dr. Hill: My hon. Friend can look after himself, but I did not interpret his remarks as being an acquiescence with the view of the hon. Lady. If he did acquiesce, I dissent from the view, as, I hope, she will.
  The hon. Lady referred to prices. She said, quite rightly, that in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) yesterday, I agreed that the current price was 5s. 3d. She made it 5s. 6d. I may tell her that the prices ruling today are between 5s. and 5s. 6d. in different parts of the country for the grade "A" eggs with correspondingly lower prices for grades "B" and "C" eggs. A year ago, with the subsidy in operation, the price was 5s. Today, without the subsidy, the price is between 5s. and 5s. 6d.—with this important difference—that the eggs are there in the shops. That is what my right hon. and gallant Friend sought to achieve, and that is what he has achieved. The answer to the hon. Lady and her hon. Friends is in a tour of the shops today where they will see the eggs displayed.
  The hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Moyle) raised the question of previous consultation. The Government decided, faced with breakdown in the system of allocation, as it then obtained, that the system, having proved unworkable, should be brought to an end. That was a decision of principle for which the Government were responsible. Having reached that decision the Government immediately entered into consultation with all the representative groups and bodies on the new system which should be introduced. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the function of the advisory body is a technical function, marrying up supply and demand in different parts of the country. I am entirely with him that wherever possible there should be consumers on such bodies, but it would seem that this particular body is appropriately constituted for the work it does.
  Mr. Moyle: All I wanted to convey was the rather weighty representation on the distributive side is calculated to destroy confidence, particularly when

  1203
  there is no consumer representative, and relating that to the cost of distribution.
  Dr. Hill: On the question of costs, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the average cost of distribution amounts to between l0d. and 1s. per dozen eggs. Over the past years we have gained experience of distribution, packing and grading and other associated costs which come under the common heading. The level of distributive costs would from experience seem reasonable.
  Turning to feedingstuffs, I would point out that there is nothing new in removing the subsidy from feedingstuffs, despite the references of the hon. Member for Blackburn, East to the wickedness of such a step. May I remind her that on 24th October, 1949, the present Leader of the Opposition, then the Prime Minister said:
  "After the next Annual Review in February … we shall eliminate the Exchequer subsidy on animal feedingstuffs which is now running at an annual rate of £36 million."
  He went on to say:
  "… there will be no increase on this account in the subsidies on ordinary food."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th October, 1949; Vol. 468, c. 1019–20.]
  Therefore there is ample precedent for the removal of subsidies on feedingstuffs, even though in that case the wrong moment was chosen. The costs of imported feedingstuffs were rising and the subsidy had to be re-imposed in 1951. But that removal of the feedingstuff subsidy, virtuous and necessary then, now becomes something which is undesirable and improper when it is related to the decontrol of the whole cereal and feedingstuffs industries.
  For 14 years 22 trades, the grain trade and a host of others, have been, as it were, married to the Ministry of Food. For the most part those trades have acted as agents for the Ministry of Food, many of them remunerated on a cost-plus basis. We have had 14 years in which the skills of those industries have been lost. Indeed, we had achieved the position where we had to decide which way to go. There is a logical argument for the nationalising of these industries, but even the party opposite has not put forward such a proposal. On the other hand, if we were unwilling to do that, the right and proper course was to take the step towards freedom, which in fact has been taken.
  1204
  The hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer), in his recital of the complications of the Order, might have said that that part was for merchants and not for fanners. He might have added that such an Order has been in operation nine years and that the whole of the Order with all that terminology will end on 31st July this year.
  So, having determined that it was time to return these 22 trades to freedom, it became absolutely necessary as a preliminary to remove the subsidy. It is not sufficiently realised that whenever it is decided to make a journey into freedom it is necessary as a preliminary to remove the subsidy. In this case the subsidy is being removed with the result that the average increase in cost is £2 7s. 6d. a ton. The party opposite, when they decided in 1949 to remove the subsidy, did it at a time when the prices were raised by £4 12s. a ton on average. On this occasion, when the removal of subsidy is the first phase of the decontrol exercise, it is being done at a time when, as a result of falling prices, the increase is not about £6 a ton, as it would have been a year ago, but £2 7s. 6d. I believe that this preliminary step is part of a vast and important decontrol exercise, which is absolutely necessary if these industries are to regain their skill in the interest of the economic health of the country.
  As for the vigour with which the Opposition has attacked these changes, may I remind them that it was in January this year that the White Paper was published intimating the Government's intention to remove the subsidy on feedingstuffs. It was on 24th March that the Order was laid. The 40 days is up tomorrow. In their vigorous onslaught on this change they have neglected all previous opportunities to bring the matter before the House and discuss it. They have waited until the changes have become effective, until the last night, in order that they might convince the people of the vigour with which they are fighting.
  As a matter of fact, the egg example is a bit worse. It was on 26th November last that the Minister announced that eggs would be decontrolled in the spring. It was on 18th February that the details of the new arrangements were announced. It was on 25th March that the Order

  1205
  decontrolling the price of eggs was laid. That Order expires, not tomorrow, but the day after. The Opposition have taken no advantage of Parliamentary opportunities to debate the policy, challenge it, or discuss it. They wait until the job is done before bringing it to the notice of the House—in strange contrast to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford, Central (Mr. Webb) wrote on 2nd November when there was wind in the air of this decontrol. He said: "It must be resisted by the Labour Party with all its strength."
  The plain truth is that the Opposition know that the decontrol of eggs has been widely applauded throughout the country. They know it is amply justified by the eggs in the shops, and they know too that the subject of decontrol of feeding-stuffs is one of profound importance to this country, and one they cannot decently challenge. Indeed I suspect the reason for the Prayers tonight is not so much the Sunderland by-election as an observation of the Leader of the House who drew attention last week to the fact that the Opposition's votes of censure were on procedural matters, and not on decisions to deration. They then ran round the corner with all possible speed to put down a Prayer.
  11.15 p.m.
  Mr. Ede: The Parliamentary Secretary appears to have enjoyed himself. We are always anxious to meet the convenience of the House and, other matters having occupied the House, it was desirable that we should test the feeling of the House on these-matters; we have chosen tonight to do so. I hope that is sufficient explanation on that point.
  It was astonishing that the hon. Gentleman said not a word about the Ministry's continued trading in eggs, which was referred to by my hon. Friends, and the way in which apparently, as was suggested, the Treasury is to be protected and the price of eggs is to be maintained against the housewife by Government direct action. He did not make any comment on this, and therefore we may take it that that is accepted. The hon. Gentleman having failed to say a single word about it, I can only ask my hon. Friends to go into the Lobby in support of the Prayer so ably and exhilaratingly moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, East (Mrs. Castle) and so completely unanswered by the hon. Gentleman.
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 131; Noes, 175.

  Division No. 170.]

  AYES

  [11.16 p.m.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Gibson, C. W.

  McLeavy, F.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Glanville, James

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Awberry, S. S.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. H.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Grey, C. F.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Bartley, P.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Mason, Roy

  Bence, C. R.

  Hale, Leslie

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Monslow, W.

  Benson, G.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Moody, A. S.

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Morley, R.

  Blackburn, F.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Moyle, A.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Holman, P.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Boardman, H.

  Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Bowles, F. G.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Orbach, M.

  Burke, W. A.

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Oswald, T.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Carmichael, J.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Collick, P. H.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Parker, J.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Pearson, A.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Popplewell, E.

  Deer, G.

  Keenan, W.

  Porter, G.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Kenyon, C.

  Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Rankin, John

  Fienburgh, W.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Follick, M.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Rhodes, H.

  Foot, M. M.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Forman, J. C.

  McGovern, J.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  McInnes, J.

  Short, E. W.

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Thomas, David (Aberdare)

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

  Thornton, E.

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Timmons, J.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Weitzman, D.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Sylvester, G. O.

  West, D. G.

  Mr. Royle and

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Wheeldon. W. E.

  Mr. Kenneth Robinson.

  NOES

  Aitken, W. T.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Osborne, C.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Partridge, E.

  Arbuthnot, John

  Harden, J. R. E.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Hay, John

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Heald, Sir Lionel

  Pitman, I. J.

  Baker, P. A. D.

  Heath, Edward

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Banks, Col. C.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Barlow, Sir John

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Profumo. J. D.

  Baxter, A. B.

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Beach, Maj. Hicks

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Redmayne, M.

  Bennett, William (Woodside)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Birch, Nigel

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Horobin, I. M.

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Black, C. W.

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Bossom, A. C.

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

  Hulbert, Wing. Cdr. N. J.

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, M.)

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

  Browne, Jack (Govan)

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Scott, R. Donald

  Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Bullard, D. G.

  Kaberry, D.

  Shepherd, William

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Campbell, Sir David

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Speir, R. M.

  Carr, Robert

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Stevens, G. P.

  Channon, H.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Colegate, W. A.

  McCallum, Major D.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. H. F. C.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Maclean, Fitzroy

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Crouch, R. F.

  Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Turton, R. H.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Markham, Major S. F.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Marples, A. E.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Maude, Angus

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Donner, P. W.

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Mellor, Sir John

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Wellwood, W.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

  Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Gower, H. R.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Mr. Drewe and Mr. Wills.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  DECIMAL SYSTEM
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Sir H. Butcher.]
  11.26 p.m.
  Mr. M. Follick: I rise this evening to bring to the attention of the House a matter that sooner or later will have to provide a change both in our trading system and in our educational system. I refer to going over from the old-fashioned system of arithmetic to the decimal system. Speaking of the decimal system, we have to make clear the distinction of two facts. There is the question of decimal currency and the metric system. Of all the nations in the world I believe we are the only great trading nation that has not gone over to the decimal currency. Even so, a great many of our own Dependencies, Colonies and Dominions have gone over to decimal currency. I refer to the West Indies, to East Africa, Ceylon and Canada. We do not know what difference the fact of Canada going over to the dollar system has made in our trade with that great Dominion.
  I was listening on the wireless last week to a commentary which referred to the great trade, both import and export, which Canada had with the United States, and we have to find out how much of that is due to the fact that Canada has gone over to the dollar system, which is a decimal currency. There is a very good decimal currency in our East African possessions, Zanzibar, Uganda, Tanganyika and Kenya, which is based on the shilling. For instance, threepence is 25 cents, sixpence is 50 cents, ninepence is 75 cents and a shilling is 100 cents. You can take your English money there, and they will give you your change for any English money in their own decimal currency. It works easily and it could work in this country without any difficulty at all.
  This brings me face to face with a very important Report which has been brought to the attention of the British public. It has been made to the Secretary for Overseas Trade by a Commission which has been visiting the Caribbean. I am going a little wider in this debate this evening because this Report was published after I had indicated the subject of tonight's debate. It links up with it, because the
  1210
  importance of the Report and of the Commission is this; there are 12 Caribbean Republics, and they are all dollar-paying. I have been maintaining for the last four years in speech after speech in this House and in books and articles which I have written that it would be far wiser for us to get our dollars from this part of the world rather than to try to get them from the United States.
  In 1948, I told Sir Stafford Cripps, that sooner or later our goods would become competitive in the United States, who would then raise their tariffs to keep us out. That is only natural when a manufacturing country competes against another manufacturing country within its own borders. There are 70 or 80 millions of people in those 12 Republics who like us and want to trade with us. Instead of diverting goods to them and getting dollars, we are insisting upon trying to force our goods into the United States, upon an unwilling market.
  Since that time I have tried again and again to make the Government realise the importance of these 12 Republics. I appealed to the late Sir Stafford Cripps while he was President of the Board of Trade, and again when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, urging that these were dollar-paying countries, have a big market and were not manufacturing countries. They have no domestic field to shelter, and they will allow competition as active as you like in their country without trying to raise tariffs to keep our goods out.
  We can far better deal with those countries if we adopt the metric system. We cannot expect people whom we want to buy our goods to mess about working out our farthings, pence, shillings and pounds, and inches, feet and yards, when they can trade with many other countries on the metric system. This system is very easy, while ours is very complicated. We learn that 24 grains make one scruple and three scruples make one gram, while even our ounces are of different weights. Troy ounces are different from ounces avoirdupois. The metric system is always done with tens. Our numbers 10, 100 and 1,000 work on a decimal system, but our weights and measures do not. If we wish to sell our goods, we shall not be able to do so on our old-fashioned weights and monetary systems.
  In this Report Brigadier Crosland whom the Secretary for Overseas Trade

  1211
  sent to the Caribbean, largely on my urging that here was a possibility of acquiring dollars, says:
  "Prices and terms must be in a decimal currency and the metric system."
  Whereas I could not persuade the last Government, the present Secretary for Overseas Trade sees the wisdom of it; but I warn him that without the metric system he will not get that trade. We shall have to look to other places than the United States for our dollars, because exactly what I warned the Government about is happening. The United States is forcing up its tariffs against us. We know what happened recently over the Chief Joseph Dam tenders, when this country outbid every American tender and offered highly competitive quality and dates of delivery. Instead of accepting the British tender the Americans have asked for new tenders.
  We have seen what has happened over the Comet aircraft. Our machines proved to be the best in the world, and the Americans are not going to allow their companies to use the Comets. Lord Brabazon said that it was with astonishment that it was learned that America was refusing to validate our certificates. They said that they had no experience on which to base their assessment of our calculations. After the war, when we had no large ocean-crossing aircraft, we had to buy Constellations. Now, when we are putting better machines into the air than they can produce, they are adopting every artifice they can to prevent American Companies buying Comets. Recently, Mr. Simpson introduced into the House of Representatives a Bill to:
  "deprive the President of his power to lower tariffs and that Congress should take over the job of tariff making."
  If tariffs are raised higher it will be impossible for us to compete in that country.
  Are we to continue trying to force our goods into the United States, or are we going to take advantage of the opportunity which we ought not to have neglected four years ago, when I first raised the matter here? The market could have been ours then. Now we shall have competitors. One big order which we might have got from Venezuela has gone to Italy. Germany will be compet-
  1212
  ing. If we could capture the markets in the Caribbean area we would have permanent markets from which to draw dollars. There are between 70 million and 80 million people there, and manufactured goods have to be imported. If we produced the right goods at the right prices we shall have an equal opportunity of competing in those markets.
  I warn the Secretary for Overseas Trade that if he hopes to capture that market he must go over to the metric system, or he will be putting an obstacle in his own path. We shall not get these people to waste time with our obsolete measurements, which are pretty well abolished all over the world, when they can get their needs supplied in the simple metric system. We shall either have to quote in dollars or go over to a proper decimal currency ourselves.
  Major Sydney Markham: Does the hon. Member seriously think that we should have got the Venezuelan contract if we had had a decimal system, in the face of the other much stronger forces which are at work at the moment?
  Mr. Follick: I do not know the details, but I know the countries of which I am speaking. I have addressed their Parliaments and spoken to their leading politicians. We should certainly have stood a much better chance if we had quoted in the metric system.
  Major Markham: All British estimates and tenders are quoted in the currency of the country to which we want to sell. We do not quote in pounds, shillings and pence but in dollars, or whatever is the currency of the country concerned.
  Mr. Follick: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman has misunderstood my point. I can name a dozen cases where that is not so.
  Major Markham: That certainly was not the case with the dam contract.
  Mr. Follick: I have explained what happened in that case. We had done everything as it should have been done, but unfair methods were employed against us. Instead of trying to force our way into this market we should take advantage of the possibility of working our way quickly into the markets in this Caribbean area, where we can earn dollars. Our biggest export to the United

  1213
  States is whisky, and they will take that whether or not we force it on them; but they are actively engaged in keeping out our manufactured goods which compete with their own interests in the United States.
  This is an important matter. Sooner or later the market in the United States will be very difficult for us. It will not be a case of competition but of obstruction, and if we have to get dollars, the only other opportunity we have is to trade with the Caribbean countries. I advise the Secretary of Overseas Trade to study these countries properly. I thank him for having told me, "It is on your persuasian, because of your book and your writings that we have sent this Mission out." The Mission has come back with a very favourable report. It may be that we have got some orders in spite of our obsolete methods of arithmetic, but it will be much easier to get orders if we trade with these people in a system of calculation which they can understand.
  11.44 p.m.
  The Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. H. R. Mackeson): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Follick) for the manner in which he has raised this interesting subject. The hon. Member started his speech by stressing the matter of increased instruction in the use of the decimal system. This is a matter which affects both schools and commerce. I propose to deal mainly with the use of decimals—and, more particularly, with the metric system—in connection with its effect on our overseas trade.
  First, let me say a word about instruction in schools. This is not a matter which affects the Board of Trade, as the hon. Gentleman will realise. As the hon. Gentleman gave me notice of this I have taken advice on the subject.
  It is a traditional and valued feature of our public education system that there is no central control over the curriculum of individual schools. It follows that it is not really possible to generalise about what should be taught, since practice varies generally, but I am advised that the broad picture at present is that the work of most secondary school pupils will involve some study of decimals and that they will acquire some knowledge of the metric system of weights and
  1214
  measures. There can be no question of the Minister of Education requiring schools or instructing them to pay more attention to the teaching of decimals and the metric system, but schools are not blind to the requirements of post-war life, and it can be expected that they will adjust their practice if, for instance, it is clearly shown that children going into commerce and industry require more adequate instruction in the metric system than they at present receive.
  From the point of view of the United Kingdom and British industry and commerce the disadvantages of the change over to the metric system, particularly in the present economic circumstances of the country, are quite considerable. But we must look at them. I fully accept the strong case which the hon. Gentleman has made out but we must weigh this carefully before we make any decision. If we switch over too ruthlessly we may be faced with a situation where our weighing and measuring equipment may well have to be modified and the engineering industry particularly would require or might be required to re-equip itself not only with measuring equipment but also with tools, gauges and other implements. Moreover, during the critical situation that might arise during the transition stage from one system to another there might be additional cost involved in holding double stocks of spares, and the countries already using the metric system would be at an advantage.
  The Government's attitude to the recommendation on the subject in the Report of the Hodgson Committee on Weights and Measures is contained in a reply given by the President of the Board of Trade on 11th November, 1952, when he said quite categorically:
  "Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to proceed with the recommendation for the eventual abandonment of the Imperial for the metric system of weights and measures."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th April, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 28.]
  This leaves open the question of how far we should encourage the voluntary use of decimals and the metric system in commerce, particularly overseas. The hon. Gentleman referred very kindly to the suggestion in the Crosland Report. I hope to say a word or two about that, but there are a few general remarks I should like to make about the use of the metric system in international trade.

  1215
  It is quite true that many countries have adopted this system and we fully recognise the importance of our trade with those countries which include such important markets as some of the O.E.E.C. countries and Latin America. Our first interest in international trade as Britons must be the British Commonwealth of Nations. The Commonwealth countries are our closest friends, our cousins and allies. They are our largest sources of supply for raw materials and food. On the other hand, they form the most important market for our exports, nearly half of which go to those countries. The volume of trade for which the Commonwealth is responsible amounts to about a third of the world's trade.
  The Commonwealth countries still use the Imperial weights and measures and, if one includes that great and important market for British products, the United States, one finds that in total nearly half the world's trade is conducted by countries using the Imperial system. We are pledged, as a Government, and, indeed, as a nation—this is not a political matter —to play our part in expanding trade with the Commonwealth and in developing its resources. It is vital for us also to expand, as far as we can, our exports to the United States. We clearly must not attach too much importance to achieving uniformity on the basis of the metric system in weights and measures used in commerce in view of this extremely widespread use of the Imperial system.
  I would like to revert to the question of the use of the metric system in connection with our trade with the Caribbean countries since the hon. Gentleman has mentioned this. I know how long he has displayed an interest in this matter. As far back as 1948, he was pressing the then President of the Board of Trade to take action in this matter. He had to wait, unfortunately, for the present Administration to follow his lead. I have his speech here. I would like to congratulate him on his foresight. I have read the hon. Gentleman's interesting book on the subject and share his enthusiasm for developing our trade relations with the "Twelve Republics." I congratulate him too on the efforts he has made and which I shall be glad to follow, as far as I can.
  The Crosland Mission's Report is an admirable one. It makes many recom-
  1216
  mendations, amongst which is the questions of weights and measures. These countries are rapidly developing. They offer excellent opportunities for our exports, particularly in capital goods. We want to see a great increase in them. We shall do everything we can to follow up the Commission's Report. One of the many examples I have noted is not only the recommendation on weights and measures, but on the use of the appropriate language. The hon. Gentleman has the great advantage of speaking many languages.
  We must see that sales literature and instructional manuals are printed in Spanish or the language concerned. We must see that attention is given to modifications in design or styling to meet the special needs of the market concerned. Attention should be given particularly to market research and packaging. I do not say, for a moment, that exporters are not generally aware of the need for this, but I consider it does occasionally occur that, where exporters are seeking to sell in an unfamiliar market, they miss these small points.
  As an example of what the Government are doing, I need only mention the recent extension to the dollar countries of Latin America of the full range of dollar drive facilities, which the Export Credits Guarantee Department have for some time made available for North America, a fact which is not recognised by many people on both sides of this House, in industry, or in the trade unions. I would welcome the assistance of hon. Members on both sides in publicising this. With the co-operation of the Dollar Exports Council, we are vigorously following up the various recommendations made by the Crosland Mission in their Report.
  I acknowledge with gratitude the work the hon. Gentleman has done to assist us. I can assure him we shall do our best, but we do not think at present that his recommendation technically can be followed. Our Imperial Commonwealth markets and our Colonial markets are our vital markets, and are our real solution, but we cannot afford to neglect any market, however small, in any country.
  Adjourned accordingly at Six Minutes to Twelve o'Clock.

  RAYON STAPLE FIBRE
  RAYON STAPLE FIBRE
  TECHNOLOGISTS
  TECHNOLOGISTS
  HOUSING (CONSTRUCTION AND DESIGN)
  HOUSING (CONSTRUCTION AND DESIGN)
  INDUSTRIAL DE-RATING ACT
  INDUSTRIAL DE-RATING ACT
  PENNINE WAY (RIGHTS OF WAY)
  PENNINE WAY (RIGHTS OF WAY)
  RIVER TAFF, MYNACHDY (FENCING)
  RIVER TAFF, MYNACHDY (FENCING)
  CORONATION PROCESSION (MEMBERS' VIEWING FACILITIES)
  CORONATION PROCESSION (MEMBERS' VIEWING FACILITIES)
EMPLOYMENT
  Miners' Hostels (Charges)
  Miners' Hostels (Charges)
  Gateshead
  Gateshead
  Disabled Persons, Spennymoor
  Disabled Persons, Spennymoor
  Hayes
  Hayes
SCOTLAND
  Anglo-Soviet Trade Discussions
  Anglo-Soviet Trade Discussions
  House Sale, Largs
  House Sale, Largs
  WAR PENSIONERS' CERTIFICATES (ATTESTATION)
  WAR PENSIONERS' CERTIFICATES (ATTESTATION)
AGRICULTURE
  Marketing Schemes
  Marketing Schemes
  Credit Facilities
  Credit Facilities
  Hill Farming Schemes, Wales
  Hill Farming Schemes, Wales
  INTERNATIONAL COAL CLASSIFICATION
  INTERNATIONAL COAL CLASSIFICATION
  MINING SUBSIDENCE, NOTTINGHAM
  MINING SUBSIDENCE, NOTTINGHAM
  TELEVISION TRANSMITTER, ISLE OF WIGHT
  TELEVISION TRANSMITTER, ISLE OF WIGHT

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Viscount Exmouth—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

CHESHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
2.37 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I make a short announcement regarding future Business before we come to the Business on the Order Paper for this afternoon. First, I am afraid that it will be necessary for the House to meet at 2.30 p.m., instead of at 3 o'clock, on Thursday afternoon next, May 14, in order to enable us to cope with the Business which has accumulated before we can come to the important debate on Historic Houses which stands in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, for that day. Secondly, we shall receive the Flood Relief Bill from another place to-day. As your Lordships know, this Bill is urgently needed to enable local authorities, with the aid of the Treasury, to cope with important measures for relief and protection from the violence of the sea before next winter sets in. Noble Lords opposite have, I understand, kindly agreed to co-operate with us on this side of the House to press forward with that Bill. We shall accordingly take the Second Reading on Thursday next—that
388
is part of the additional Business which has come up for that day—and the Committee and remaining stages on Tuesday of next week, May 19, in order that we may be able to return it to another place in time for their consideration of any Amendments which the House may think it necessary to suggest. I hope this will be convenient to noble Lords opposite.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, we certainly think it essential that we should co-operate with noble Lords in regard to the Flood Relief Bill, and we accept the arrangements which the noble Marquess has outlined.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I need hardly say that I do not intend it to be the usual practice that there should be such a short period between Second Reading and the later stages of a Bill.

CARLTON HOUSE TERRACE
2.40 p.m.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any observations to make concerning the future of Carlton House Terrace.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, it will be remembered that this subject was raised in your Lordships' House on March 6, 1951. The House was then informed that the previous Government were satisfied that the present premises of the Foreign Office were inadequate and would have to be replaced. They were also satisfied that Carlton House Terrace, reconstructed behind the present elevations facing the Mall and the Duke of York's Steps, would be a very suitable site for this purpose. Having regard to the need to curtail Government expenditure in the present economic situation Her Majesty's Government think it unlikely that work can start for some years.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, in thanking the noble Earl for his reply, I should like to ask this supplementary

389
question. Are Her Majesty's Government in favour of preserving, without material alteration, the facades of Carlton House Terrace facing the Mall, which are a supreme example of civic architecture?
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I have no desire to range over the whole subject of whether Carlton House Terrace should be maintained in its present form. I feel that it would be far wiser to await a final decision about the future of Carlton House Terrace, and until there is some prospect of work starting.

DISMANTLING OF CORONATION STANDS
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can state that the stands in the vicinity of Westminster Abbey and Westminster Hall will be dismantled as rapidly as possible when the Coronation is over, in order that overseas and other visitors to London may be enabled to obtain an uninterrupted view—across Parliament Square and from other angles—of these ancient and venerable buildings.]
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, on certain sections of the route followed by the Coronation processions it will be possible to proceed with dismantling the stands immediately after Coronation Day. Some of the stands will, however, be retained in the East Carriage Drive for use in connection with the Servicemen's Review of July 5. On other sections of the route, and particularly in the Mall and Parliament Square, I anticipate that large numbers of people will wish to see the decorations, and many will visit London for that purpose. Subject, therefore, to weather conditions my right honourable friend the Minister of Works intends to leave the decorations in position for a period after Coronation Day and to begin their removal not later than Monday, June 22. In many cases the dismantling of the stands will involve the removal of the decorations, and where this is the case the stands will remain in
390
position until the decorations are removed.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his reply, I should like to ask whether the Government will bear in mind that if many of the Commonwealth and American visitors who are over here—some for the first and last time—could see these buildings in all their grandeur, it might have a stimulating effect on the donations to the Westminster Abbey Appeal Fund, which I understand is not making the progress we should all desire.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I would not disagree with the noble Viscount, but I feel, also, that the Commonwealth and American people who may come to this country for the Coronation will be stimulated to see the decorations for a unique event.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: But they will want to see the Abbey.

HARROW TRAIN ACCIDENT
2.43 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when the inspector's report into the train accident at Harrow on October 8, 1952, will be available to Parliament.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE CO-ORDINATION OF TRANSPORT, FUEL AND POWER (LORD LEATHERS): My Lords, your Lordships will appreciate that the report on this major accident will have to deal with the whole complex subject of automatic train control, and in these circumstances I should not wish to tie the Chief Inspecting Officer to a definite date for publication. But the report is well advanced, and I certainly hope that it will be available next month.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, while I am grateful to the noble Lord, the Secretary of State, for his reply, I am at the same time very disturbed, and I am sure the public will be, too. The public wish to know the cause of the accident. To find that is the inspecting

391
officer's prime duty. It is not, I would submit, with respect to the noble Lord, the inspecting officer's duty to acquaint himself with all the remedies that will be taken in the years to come. It is seven months since this most tragic accident occurred. Unfortunately, the noble Lord will have to deal with many other accidents. I think the issue of this report should be expedited, and I hope the noble Lord will take note that it should be possible to deal with these things in a more expeditious manner in the future.
LORD LEATHERS: My Lords, I should like to say this, and I have referred to it in an Answer to an earlier Question. First of all, the inspecting officer made an immediate report after the close of the inquiry. That was a short statement which made it quite clear just what had been the cause of the accident. What he has pursued ever since is the very necessary consideration of what steps can best be taken to ensure that we do not get a repetition in the future. It is far better for us to have a report that is really worth while and which will give us guidance for the future. We shall have the report next month, and I think that is all I can say.

COASTAL FLOODING (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
NAVY AND MARINES (WILLS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

TRANSFERRED UNDERTAKINGS (COMPENSATION TO EMPLOYEES) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1953
2.46 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, Lord Leathers, I beg to move that these Regulations be approved. They are made under the 1947 Act and amend the principal Regulations which were approved by this House in June, 1950. The object of these amending Regulations
392
is to rectify an anomaly which has since that time become apparent. Under the principal Regulations, to be entitled to compensation the claimant must have been an employee at the time when the transfer took place and, secondly, he has to have been employed in the industry since January, 1940. It so happens that in the road haulage business there are a certain number of people who have made their own businesses—in other words, have been owners or part owners, managing the business themselves. These men have subsequently, in certain cases, become employees. The typical example is a man who built up his own business, turned it into a limited liability company and became, for instance, managing director. That man would be excluded from consideration because, for part of the relevant period, he would have been owner or part owner. This Amendment is intended to cover precisely that case, so that such men can be brought in within the terms of compensation as laid down in the principal Regulations. There are two points arising from it. First, the man must still have served continuously, subject to certain limitations, during that period; and, secondly, the period of his service may in certain cases increase the amount of compensation which is due to him. I submit that this consideration was probably overlooked rather unwittingly when the original regulations were made, and that it is fair and proper that we should make an adjustment for it now. I hope your Lordships will agree. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Transferred Undertakings (Compensation to Employees) (Amendment) Regulations, 1953, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, the 29th of April, be approved.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, on the face of it, and with the noble Earl's explanation, these Amendment Regulations appear to be quite in order and highly desirable. But I should like to ask him one question, as it is not made clear in the Order or the explanatory notice attached to it. As the noble Earl has quite rightly said, the case has to be covered of a man who was the owner of a road haulage business but who, during the term of the qualifying period, became an employee. The noble Earl has mentioned the case of a single

393
owner who turns his business into a private limited liability company. Of course, it could also happen with a private ownership, a single ownership, without any limited company structure, or with a partnership. I am apprehensive, although I feel that the noble Earl is going to dispel my apprehension. Having had some experience of the lucidity with which he dealt with a great many intricate matters in our debates on the Transport Bill, I feel sure that this will come easily to him. I do not want to prevent the payment of compensation for hardship, but I do want to prevent anyone from getting compensation twice, because the single ownership business in the road haulage industry was a type of business most generously compensated under the 1947 Act.
Owing to a recent decision of your Lordships' House acting in its Judicial capacity, the compensation for compulsory acquisition has to be paid upon a gross assessment of profits, from which there need be no deduction for any salary or remuneration for the single ownership, and that will cost the British Transport Commission, at this late stage, something in the region of £2 million or more, in additional compensation. What I want to ensure—and I feel sure the noble Earl will be able to satisfy me on the point, which I will put as kindly as I can—is this. I do not want to see an individual who may have had a single ownership business for nine-tenths of the qualifying period, having come to some arrangement to be a shadow proprietor, with somebody else having the real financial interest behind it, now coming forward as the hard-done-by employee and getting compensation as well. If the noble Earl will assure me that that contingency is adequately covered, then I shall be satisfied; and so, I think, will noble Lords on this side.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for what he has said in general. He can set his mind at rest on this matter: there is no question of anybody being paid twice. A man has to be an employee at the time of transfer, in which case he could not come under the decision in the case of Road Haulage Executive v. Elrick, to which the noble Lord has referred. In regard to the other instance which the noble Lord mentioned, the instance in which a man has made an
394
arrangement, I must say that, although it might have been conceivable that a man would make an arrangement, I think it would have been very difficult to do so; and I should have thought that that would be abundantly covered by these provisions. We have much more in mind the case in which, perhaps ten years or more ago, a man may have been, for a few years, an operator of a firm. I think noble Lords can rest assured. We do not know how many people are concerned, but we think there are very few. I hope that in these circumstances the noble Lord will accept what I have said.
On Question, Motion agreed to

PRINCIPAL PROBATE REGISTRY (NON-CONTENTIOUS BUSINESS) (CANTERBURY SUB-REGISTRY) ORDER, 1953
2.53 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): My Lords, the object of the Draft Order which is laid on the Table of your Lordships' House is to amend the scheme of District Probate Registries which was established under Section 108 and the Second Schedule to the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925. Section 108 provides that that scheme can be amended only by an Order made by the President of the Probate Division, with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor and the Treasury, and that before any Order is made it shall be approved by both Houses of Parliament by Resolution, with or without modification or addition.
The District Probate Sub-Registry at Canterbury which is reopened by the Draft Order was closed in 1940 on account of disturbance by enemy aircraft and lack of manpower. The Order by which it was closed was not made under the procedure which is now invoked but by an Order in Council made under the Administration of Justice (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939. That Act was terminated in 1947, but not so as to affect things which had already been done under it. Consequently, in order to reopen the Sub-Registry at Canterbury it is necessary to comply with the procedure laid down in Section 108 of the Judicature Act, 1925.
I am satisfied that the Probate Sub-Registry at Canterbury should now be

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reopened. The war-time conditions no longer persist, and there appears to be the same public demand for a Sub-Registry in Canterbury as there was before the war. I should add that under the Affirmative Resolution procedure under which the Order is to be made, the draft has already been subjected to the scrutiny of, and passed by, the Special Orders Committee of your Lordships' House, and by the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments in another place. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Principal Probate Registry (Non-Contentious Business) (Canterbury Sub-Registry) Order, 1953, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday, the 29th of April, be approved.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ENEMY PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
2.56 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, those Members of your Lordships' House who have had the courage to proceed even as far as the Long Title of this extremely complicated little Bill will, I think, agree with me that it hardly comes into the category of light bedside reading. It is a very detailed and a very complex measure, and I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will bear with me if I spend a little longer time than usual in striving to set out the principles of this measure, because it involves a large number of people and a large number of firms. It has a very important principle behind it, and, furthermore, this is the first occasion on which it is being considered by Parliament.
The Bill is an essential step in winding up the consequences of the war. Its object is to confer indemnity on private individuals, commercial or financial institutions, or Government Departments or officials, who, in the interests of the war effort, took action in regard to the property or rights of persons who were enemies or were believed to be enemies and who by that action may now be liable to legal proceedings by the former owners. The general effect of the Bill is
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that, provided action taken was in the spirit, if not within the letter, of the legislation relating to trading with the enemy, or was done under the authority of a Government Department, legal proceedings cannot be brought in respect of the action taken.
A Treaty of Peace generally includes provisions under which the ex-enemy Government on its own behalf, and on behalf of its nationals, agrees to waive claims against all parties in respect of actions taken because of the existence of a state of war and to accept the consequences of these actions. Waivers like those I am discussing were given after the 1914–18 war, and others will be found in the Treaties of Peace with the Satellite Powers, signed in 1947, and in the recent Treaty of Peace with Japan, signed as recently as 1951. Parliament is normally invited to enact legislation enabling effect to be given by Order in Council to provisions of the Treaty of Peace, such as I have indicated, and by this means they are given full legal force and effect in this country and provide a defence in our courts against claims by nationals of the ex-enemy country concerned arising out of actions taken during the war period. Thus, it appears that the principle that, after the war or period of emergency, action should be taken to bar claims against people in this country for what was done in good faith is generally accepted, and such action is normally the outcome of a Peace Treaty.
The present situation is one of unparalleled complexity to which normal procedure is not applicable. In the first place we have the very special position of Germany. In the second place, the long period of hostilities, the occupation of so much of Europe and of the Far East by Germany and Japan, and continual migrations and counter-migrations of people, have produced a state of affairs without parallel; and these afford opportunities for persons with extremely doubtful claims, or even, quite frankly, bogus claims, to start actions for all sorts of damage done to their property or rights which British companies and individuals might find it impossible at this stage to accumulate the evidence to resist. For example, a person thought to be a Japanese enemy, or a person who was thought to be technically an enemy when his country's territory was overrun, and whose bank balance or house property

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is in this country and was therefore regarded as enemy property, may now come forward and allege that he had, in fact, escaped before hostilities broke out and was never an enemy, that his property was wrongly treated as enemy property, and that in one way or other he suffered loss thereby.
Claims fall, roughly, into two types. In the first place, there is the sphere of trading with the enemy. Your Lordships will no doubt remember that the Trading with the Enemy Act, 1939, was intended to provide for the preservation of enemy property and to prevent commercial, financial or other dealings with, or for the benefit of, an enemy of the King. That Act proved a very important and successful weapon of economic warfare. Under it, all holders of enemy property—for instance, a bank holding a bank balance or a block of securities belonging to an enemy, or a person or firm owing a debt to an enemy, or an agent looking after an enemy's house—were required to report such property and were not allowed to deal with it except with permission. The term "enemy" was defined on a territorial basis. Enemy status depended not on a person's nationality so much as on the territory where he was resident. The word "enemy" included any individual resident in enemy territory, and "enemy territory" included territory Occupied by the enemy. I emphasise these definitions merely to draw attention to the fact that it is extremely difficult, and, indeed, sometimes impossible, to know with any certainty where an individual was resident at any particular time during hostilities.
Moreover, as successive countries were overrun and occupied, the field over which private individuals and the commercial community were required so to order their affairs as to deny any possible benefit to the enemy was enormously expanded. Indeed, the statutory requirements of necessity overrode pre-war relationships. Goods, instead of being dealt with in accordance with a pre-war arrangement, were reported to the Custodian of Enemy Property. May I briefly remind your Lordships what was the function of the Custodian of Enemy Property. These Custodians for England, Scotland and Northern Ireland were appointed by the Board of Trade under
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the Trading with the Enemy Act, 1939. Their statutory functions were the prevention of the payment of monies to enemies and the preservation of enemy property in contemplation of arrangements to be made at the conclusion of peace. Similarly, money, instead of being held by a bank at a customer's disposal, was payable to the Custodian. Securities which were deposited in this country for coupons to be cashed or dividends collected were reported to the Custodian as enemy property.
All these actions were in accordance with the law, always provided that the owner of the goods or securities, or the customer of the bank, was, in actual fact, an enemy; but, in some cases, subsequently available information showed that he was not an enemy at all. Acting on pre-war information, the only information at hand, a bank or a merchant could only assume that the customer was resident in enemy territory and act accordingly, whereas the customer might have left before the outbreak of war or before the occupation of his country by the enemy; or the owner of securities may have died without the knowledge of the bank in this country, and may have left them by will to a person who never became an enemy. Custodians of Enemy Property themselves are also open to attack for their part in any of these transactions. Strictly speaking, the Custodian was not authorised to deal with property in any of these cases if it was not enemy property: normally, he could act only on what was reported to him, and there was usually no way in which he could verify his information. The information available may have been inaccurate or incomplete, so that in all good faith he may have been handling property to which he had no right. In time of grave emergency it might well have been regarded as dereliction of duty if benefits in property had accrued to the advantage of the enemy while the Custodian was running around like a beetle on a hot plate busily engaged in proving its ownership to the hilt.
There is another point which would obviously have occurred to your Lordships from this particular aspect. Enemy air raids were another cause of actions which were inevitable at the time but which may have been outside the strict letter of the law. There was, of

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course, great anxiety by everybody concerned to clear goods from docks and warehouses as soon as possible; and in some cases, quite frankly, goods were sold without the prior legal requirements as to formal vesting having been strictly observed. Your Lordships may have noticed a case recently in the courts about a cargo of sponges which was disposed of in this way, the value of which rose threefold in the course of the negotiations; and there are many other cases obviously which have, or will, come to light.
Apart from actions in the sphere of trading with the enemy, property rights of various kinds have been prejudiced or infringed during and since the war at the instance of the Government. The net result is that persons and firms in this country are in real danger of having legal proceedings brought against them. Immediately after the end of active hostilities in Europe, all sorts of technical and scientific information about German industrial processes were collected by teams of scientists and industrialists who visited Germany, under Government auspices, with the express purpose of making this information available to manufacturers in this country and elsewhere. The results of their inquiries and of their discoveries were issued under the authority of the Government; but, none the less, our manufacturers using this information may have incurred risk of actions for infringement of copyright. I will return to this topic, if I may, when I come to deal with Clause 6, which is one of the most difficult and important clauses in the Bill. Again, there may have been infringements of German-owned patents which, under international agreement, have since been placed in the public domain.
Finally, there is the position of the present holders of property removed from Germany and allocated to us under the reparations programme. The House is no doubt aware that large quantities of plant and equipment came to this country in this way after the end of hostilities—plant and equipment which was very useful to British industry at a time when requirements were difficult to fulfil and when the reconstruction programmes were particularly heavy. As things stand at present, all these people, all the people I have been discussing, can be sued in the courts by the former owners con-
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cerned and might be hard put to find a legal defence, although they acted on direct instructions, or with the encouragement, of a Government Department.
With regard to property taken as reparation, the position is more serious, as the present holders purchased it in good faith. The position has already been dealt with partially in the Treaties of Peace with the Satellite Powers and with Japan, to which I have already referred. The Conventions with the German Federal Republic contain certain waivers of claims which the Federal Republic will give on their own behalf and on behalf of Germans under their authority. But, as your Lordships are only too well aware, the Federal Republic is not in a position effectively to bind all Germans, since the Federal Government do not exercise jurisdiction over Germans in the Soviet Zone of Germany or other former German territories not under their administration. In consequence, for the Government simply to seek power to give effect by Order in Council to waivers to be given by the German Federal Republic, as in the case of the usual kind of treaty waiver of claims, would not achieve the object. Nor can such waiver be made available in cases of formerly occupied countries. Her Majesty's Government have therefore come to the decision, after most careful deliberation and a minute examination of this problem, that a comprehensive measure is necessary. This is the measure which is now laid before your Lordships' House for approval this afternoon. The general effect of the Bill is that, provided the original action was taken in furtherance of the Trading with the Enemy legislation or by or under the authority of a Government Department, legal proceedings are not to be brought in respect of certain action.
The Bill is divided into three parts. The first part consists of general provisions as to enemy property, and property treated as enemy property. The second part contains special provisions in respect of Germany, and the third part consists of certain supplementary provisions. The General effect of Part I of the Bill is to validate transactions in relation to enemy property or property treated as enemy property in excess of powers conferred by law relating to trading with the

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enemy, but the transactions must have taken place in the circumstances laid down in Clause 1. These are, that the transactions must have taken place in time between September 3, 1939, the beginning of the war, and the commencement of the Bill, as enacted, and they must have taken the form of action under the Trading with the Enemy Act, 1939, whether the action was taken by Government authority or by some other person.
Clause 2 deals with three cases where money has been paid or withheld in these circumstances, and provides that the making or withholding of payment is deemed (I apologies for using that dreadful word) to have been authorised by the Act of 1939. Thus, for example, where someone paid money to the Custodian as being due to a creditor whom he thought to be but who was not in fact an enemy, the effect is that the person who paid it is given a discharge just as if the debt had been due to the enemy. Similarly, where someone has refrained from paving money in the ordinary course of business to somebody whom he thought to be but who was in fact not an enemy, he is relieved from any liability arising, from the withholding of payment. Clause 3 applies in a similar way to other dealings with property—for example, where property was sold by the Custodian, or transferred to an Allied Government, or released from Trading with the Enemy Control, and the property was regarded as enemy property but afterwards proved not to be. The effect is that the person who transferred the property is in the same position as if he had been authorised to make the transfer, and the person to whom he transferred it is given a good title.
Clause 4 seeks to ensure that monies derived by the Custodian of Enemy Property from investment of funds in his hands are paid only to the Exchequer, and to legalise payments which have already been made. The Custodian's monies are invested, as your Lordships' probably know, in Treasury Bills and in Ways and Means advances. The interest on these monies was paid into the Exchequer before a recent judgment of the Chancery Division of the High Court raised doubts as to the legality of this course and suggested that it was possible for any person whose money was held by the Custodian for any period and then released to him to claim to be paid in
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addition the precise share of investment interest proportionate to his capital monies. The number of individual owners to whom money has already been returned by the Custodian may be well over 100,000. The accounting operation involved, if this argument proved right, would be formidable and protracted, and scores of trained accounting staff would be required to deal with it. Quite apart from that, I am not certain that it is really in the interests of the country or of the taxpayer, because interest on the investments comes out of the funds provided by the taxpayer, and I see no reason why that benefit should accrue to anybody else. The Government therefore consider that no alteration is necessary in the existing practice, and that consideration is confirmed by this clause. Clause 5 defines a number of terms used in previous clauses and contains provisions as to evidence.
As to Part II of the Bill, Clause 6, the one to which I recently referred, is necessary because of an essential fact: that, in law, possession of a document does not carry with it a copyright in its contents. At the end of hostilities with Germany, a body known as the British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee, a body which was given the inevitable nickname attached to its initials, B.I.O.S.—which I may say was not the name by which it was known by the majority of Army units with which it came into contact during the war—was sent to Germany by the Government, with instructions to collect technical information about industrial processes, including documents, drawings and patent specifications, and, in some cases, prototype plant and equipment. Information was made available to manufacturers in this country and elsewhere by these investigators. Similar action was taken by the Americans. The two countries in fact worked hand in glove in this matter: each had the full benefit of information gained by the other.
As part of the drive to increase production and to improve our competitive position in world markets, British industrialists were encouraged to take full advantage of the fruits of this combined operation. The copying, the importation, or distribution to the public of copies of these documents and drawings in many cases infringed copyright—that is, German-owned United Kingdom copyright. Industrialists who made use of this

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information with the encouragement of the Government may have incurred risk of action for infringement. It is essential to protect our people against claims in respect of the original infringing act if done by or under the authority of a person acting on behalf of the Crown, and also in order that the post-war user of such infringed works may be protected against any claims which might arise out of some subsequent infringing acts done since the war or which may be done in the future. To give your Lordships only one example, extensive use has been made of captured German records for the purpose of official histories of the war. No doubt many of those records have found their way into the present popular Adulation of Field Marshal Rommel, and no doubt there will be some more adulation applied by those engaged in writing books extolling the British soldiers who finally succeeded in defeating the much-adulated and talented Field Marshal.
Clause 7 is intended to protect persons who during the war infringed German-owned patents or registered designs. I rather hesitate to mention the word "patent" in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, as I remember that he steered the Patents Bill through your Lordships' House until it became the Patents Act, and by the time he had finished doing so he knew a good deal more about Patent Law in this country than most members of the Patent Bar. He will therefore forgive me if I just mention in passing that the grant of a patent is the right to make, use or exercise some invention, whereas the registration of a design protects only those aspects of an article which appeal to the eye. Thus, a process of weaving cloth may be paten table whereas the design of the finished piece could only be registered. Many of the patents remained in the name of German owners on the Register of Patents in the United Kingdom Patent Office from the beginning of the war until they expired or until they were vested in the Custodian of Enemy Property on May 2, 1951, when all patents then remaining on the register in German proprietorship were vested in the Custodian by a Board of Trade Order. It is quite possible that a German owner or German ex-owners could now bring actions in respect of in-
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fringements which took place while the patents concerned were on the Register in their names. Such claims would be quite contrary to our international obligations on the subject of German-owned patents. This particular clause therefore ensures that such claims are barred. It also covers registered designs, rights in design being closely associated, of course, with patent rights.
Clause 8 is intended to protect the Crown against claims by Germans in respect of the use of their inventions for war purposes while they were enemies. In a sense, the clause is complementary to Clause 7 which I have just been discussing as the reasons for protecting individuals and manufacturers who during the war infringed German patents apply here also. Clause 9 protects those manufacturers who, at the request of a Government Department, passed on secret information to contractors in breach of contract. Arrangements for technical information to be passed on by one manufacturer to others were common in war time and, when the question of increasing production of a particular munition or store was paramount, no consideration of disclosure being in contravention of a pre-war licence agreement with the enemy could be allowed to stand in the way. It is now necessary to give protection to those of our manufacturers who, quite rightly and properly, acted in this way. I should have liked to give some examples coming under the head of these last three clauses—Clauses 7, 8 and 9—because they are of extreme interest, but I now realise that there is considerable danger in so doing because the German owner of a patent which I might mention might be encouraged to launch a claim for damages against a British manufacturer or seek compensation from the Crown for infringement of patent or unauthorised disclosure of information.
Clause 10 applies to certain descriptions of "property allocated by the Inter-Allied Reparation Agency by way of reparation from Germany." The descriptions of property concerned are very wide and they include plant, equipment, ships, aircraft and other chattels, and certain non-German currencies. The Inter-Allied Reparation Agency was an international agency established by the Paris Agreement on January 14, 1946—the Agree-

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ment on German reparations. Its purpose was to provide for equitable distribution amongst the Allies of German assets available as reparations. The Agreement divided those assets into two categories. The first of those, Category A, comprised German external assets and all other forms of reparation except those included in Category B, which were, roughly, industrial and capital equipment removed from Germany. Most of the equipment was allocated to this country and was disposed of by the Ministry of Supply to firms in this country who needed it for post-war reconstruction of various and numerous kinds. The object of this clause is to protect the present owner against proceedings for its recovery and to give him a good title.
Clause 11 deals with physical property removed from Germany and imported into this country by or under authority of a Government Department without being actually allocated as reparation. In fact, a quantity of plant and equipment was removed from Germany and used in this country either for actual production or for research and development. Clauses 12 and 13 are mainly interpretative. As to Part III of the Bill, I think I need make reference only to Clause 17, which provides that the Bill shall operate as from the date of its introduction into Parliament. Actions begun earlier are not affected, but, under this clause, protection is to be afforded as far as possible to the defendant in any action begun on or after that date.
Your Lordships will, I hope, appreciate from this that the provisions of the Bill do not apply simply to the protection of bureaucracy—very far from it. I have explained, I hope to your Lordships' satisfaction, how many and varying sections of the community played their parts and did what was required of them so as to deny any possible benefit to the enemy in the sphere of enemy property. These persons are now liable to have the legality of their actions called into question. They may have great difficulty, so long after the event, in satisfying the courts that what they did was strictly covered by the law. If so, they may have damages, and heavy damages, awarded against them, to say nothing of the trouble and expense to which they will have been put. The Government feel that
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everything possible should be done to mitigate possible hardship arising from these circumstances.
I have a word of apology, perhaps, for this Bill, not only because it is an extremely complex measure, which I am afraid cannot be avoided, but for the fact that it is an indemnity Bill, and indemnity Bills in general are not particularly popular measures. The reason is obvious. Indeed, on the occasion when the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, introduced his Liberties of the Subject Bill, I fulminated a good deal myself on the subject. The reasons for the unpopularity of such Bills are I suppose, because their two chief features are that they bar the subject's right of access to the courts, and, of course, they are retrospective in nature. But the reason for barring access to the courts here is simply that we are dealing with what was done by persons who took actions for which there was no legal authority, but who did so in the interests of the country and at a time when those interests were most gravely threatened. When the action was taken in the stress of war, and when transactions have since been entered into on the faith that what was done was done with legal authority, there is ample precedent on the Statute Book for doing what this particular Bill proposes, so that those who acted in good faith or are holders for value will know precisely where they stand. An indemnity Bill also is necessarily retrospective in nature, as its whole object is to legalise actions which have already been taken. I do not feel, therefore, that objection can properly be taken to the present measure on this score.
But objection can most certainly be taken to the intolerable time which I have spent in seeking to explain this complicated measure to your Lordships. I felt, however, that a mere perusal of the Bill would not be any great comfort or support to anyone. I have now attempted, somewhat clumsily maybe, but to the best of my ability, to lay the essential principles of the Bill before your Lordships, and I hope you will now be good enough to give it a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Mancroft.)
3.26 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am sure that all your Lordships are very much indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who, with his usual lucidity and courtesy has been at such great pains to explain this Bill to the House. As he has rightly said, it is a highly technical Bill; and it really stems from the fact that there can be no Peace Treaty between this country and Germany, otherwise all that is in this Bill would be contained in that Treaty. In the absence of a Treaty, it has to be spelled out at this inordinate length. The noble Lord has a great deal of my sympathy. I remember being, in 1949, in the same position as that in which he now finds himself, when I piloted through your Lordships' House the Disposal of Enemy Property Bill. I had the advantage—or, perhaps I thought then, the disadvantage—of having to meet the keen opposition of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, who spoke from a vast experience of this particular subject—I am sorry not to see him in the House this afternoon—and also that of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, who ably aided and abetted Lord Simon. I am indeed glad to see Lord Maugham making one of his all too rare appearances in your Lordships' House to-day. I hope that he will summon up sufficient courage to put the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, on the rack, as I am certain that no one but a most eminent lawyer could digest this Bill in all its implications.
The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has been frank. This is a Bill which none of us likes. We like no Bill that bars anyone from "access to the courts"—and that is the exact expression which the noble Lord himself used. Again to use his words, "it protects bureaucracy," and when bureaucracy sets out to protect itself it does the job well and truly; and undoubtedly it has done so in this Bill. I suppose the essence of it all is to give a legal interpretation to the old adage that "All's fair in love or war." That is what the Bill really says. Let me set the noble Lord's fears at rest straight away by saying that we shall agree to the principle of this Bill—the principle is inevitable—but at some later date we shall very seriously look at the infringements, if any, of the proper rights of the
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individual, to see whether or not the Bill goes too far in its effort to give protection to those who acted in good faith, and by doing so protects those who acted in other than good faith; furthermore, to see whether the proper rights of the individual are being unnecessarily infringed.
Both the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and I, find ourselves in some difficulty. We could explain this Bill far better if we could give illustrations, pro and con. The noble Lord has rightly said that it would be highly dangerous to do so from the Government side, and I do not intend to embark upon examples from this side. But there are one or two things to which I want to draw your Lordships' attention. I am going to ask the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, whether he will allow more time between the Second Reading this afternoon and the Committee stage of the Bill than the Government seem to have been disposed to give to us in recent months. I do not think there is any undue hurry to get this Bill on to the Statute Book, and I feel certain the noble Lord will agree with me that, in the light of the explanation he has given, for which we have been waiting, it will be necessary for us to examine some clauses in the Bill. The noble Lord said that he could not find anybody who knew much about this Bill outside the Department which produced it. I have tried equally, and cannot find anybody who has read it. So we have all waited for the lucid explanation we have had this afternoon, which will assist us materially in our study of the Bill.
There is one peculiar feature of this Bill—it has three Parts and three interpretation clauses. In my short Parliamentary life I do not remember seeing a Bill that had three interpretation clauses. Every Part starts off to cover the bureaucracy and the individual in a different way. Part I deals with the interpretation, literally and otherwise, of the Trading with the Enemy Act, and of the disposal of enemy property. It talks about
"a competent authority purporting to act under the Trading with the Enemy Act"
and about
"any person in purported compliance with a restriction or obligation proposed by or under the Act of 1939."
That umbrella grows bigger as the Bill goes on, and covers a multitude of things. I have no particular complaint about

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Part I, because it is fairly clear. The noble Lord argued very well his case for not giving interest on money accruing through the disposal of alleged enemy property. He made a very good case: the noble Lord is a skilled advocate. But he will agree with me that there may be a case to be argued on the other side, and at some future time we may decide to argue it. I was pleased to see that subsection (4) of Clause 3does not bar from the courts anyone who thinks he has a case to argue that property taken from him by the Custodian was not, in fact, enemy property. That is a good protection.
When I come to Part II, I find myself in some difficulty. Clause 6 deals with the infringement of copyright and now, apart from a "competent authority purporting to act," we have
"a person acting on behalf of the Crown, or a person authorised by a person so acting…or a person acting on behalf of the Crown, or on behalf of a Power allied with His late Majesty…."
We now have a different set of people. I can imagine many things that could be done which would come outside the legitimate category which the noble Lord has mentioned. He mentioned, for instance, the difficulty of people using documents which have come out of Germany. I expect that future historians—and the world never lacks historians, competent or otherwise, who will go an writing history for years to come—are likely to infringe some copyright. I should like to ask the noble Lord a question on this point. Am I right in saying that the Bill deals only with an infringement during the specified period and that if it takes place after the specified period, such an infringement is actionable and not invalidated by this Bill? What about the case of a book written after the period of invalidation, if I may so term it? Is that actionable or is it not? What happens if it uses material which came from an enemy source before the end of the prescribed period?
When we get to Clause 7, we are again in some difficulty. While Clause 6 deals with copyrights and has certain limitations, Clause 7 deals with patents. It begins:
"Subject to the provisions of this section, where at any time within the war period anything was done so as to infringe a patent,…"
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That is very wide. I may be wrong, but it does not speak of any infringement by "a competent authority purporting to act," and there is no question of good faith. If a patent has been infringed during the prescribed period, then this Bill invalidates any access to the courts. I wonder whether that is what the Government intend. The scope is so wide that it could cover people who should not be covered. It is only fair to say that, as the noble Lord himself knows, in time of war a number of enemy patents were used by ourselves and our Allies, and a number of things came out of Germany which never come out of Germany under the cloak of "a competent authority" or anyone "acting with the authority of the Crown." Does the noble Lord really mean that no action can lie if it can be established in the court that such an act was committed? It appears to me that this Bill invalidates any action. I am not a lawyer, as your Lordships know, but I have applied as best I can a common-sense, layman's interpretation to a lot of involved legal jargon, and I am apprehensive that the umbrella which the noble Lord wishes to put up to cover legitimate cases will also cover a number of illegitimate cases. This, I feel, would not be the desire of Her Majesty's Government.
I am not going to discuss Crown use. We then come to Clause 9—that is, the disclosure of secret information. As we all know, there were many British firms operating in this country, under licence and agreement, on German patents, and the general practice was not to disclose any information. Sometimes, however, they were forced to disclose this information—as Clause 9 says:
"at the request of a Government department, for a purpose which appeared to that department to be in the interests of the defence of the realm or otherwise in the public interest."
That is a wide interpretation, but I am not going to quarrel with it. However, under an umbrella or that description, there might be a number of disclosures made for the personal gain of the unscrupulous individual, which would be difficult to prove in a court of law in the face of an Act on the lines of this Bill.
I hope that between now and the Committee stage—and I hope the noble Lord will agree that the date of that shall be mutually arranged, through the usual channels—he will give consideration to

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these matters. We shall do our best to help him. As I have said, we do not quarrel with the principle of this Bill. It is a necessary Bill; but anyone who has the interest of the individual at heart, and who is jealous of the liberty and rights of the individual, must, as the noble Lord, with his usual frankness, admitted, look with keen suspicion on any Bill that goes to the length of this attempt to indemnify certain people and to bar access to the courts of this country under such a wide umbrella. I believe that the noble Lord, as an eminent member of the legal profession, and all noble Lords in your Lordships' House, who are ever jealous of preserving the individual's right of access to the courts, will agree that this umbrella should not bar from access to the courts—as it does, as the Bill is drawn, to a great degree—anybody who feels aggrieved at a wrongful act done under the guise of war or at an indemnifying Bill following the acts of war. With those few remarks—because I do not profess to be able to understand much of what is contained in this Bill—we on this side of the House will vote for the Second Reading of the Bill. But we reserve the right to examine it carefully between now and the Committee stage to protect the interests I have mentioned.
3.45 p.m.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, at the outset, I should like to make it clear that I am not taking over the invitation of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, to the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, and trying to put somebody on the rack—far from it. I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, on the lucid way in which he has explained this complicated Bill. He has given us a clear overall picture, and I am sure we are grateful to him. So far as I can see, this is in no way a controversial measure. It has aroused no interest whatever in any quarter. No victims of the Custodian of Enemy Property have raised their voices, nor have any professional bodies had any fault to find with the provisions of the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, said, Part I of the Bill seeks to indemnify the Custodian and others acting under the powers of the Board of Trade for actions taken between September 3, 1939, and the passing of this Bill as an Act. My only experience of the Custodian of
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Enemy Property during this period was an attempt to negotiate the purchase from him of a company. However, he was unwilling to "play," and I have no interest to disclose in regard to the provisions of this Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Man-croft, explained, Part I of the Bill gives the Custodian indemnity in respect of actions taken which may not have been strictly legal at the time.
Part II of the Bill, which is concerned solely with Germany, covers various activities during the war and after the end of hostilities. Clause 6, I feel, is particularly useful, in that it protects persons acting on behalf of the Crown who may have infringed copyrights if those copyrights were in existence before March 29, 1949. The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has reminded us that soon after the end of hostilities special teams were sent to Germany to collect industrial information. I well remember that members of these teams had to wear uniform and were I given temporary military rank, so urgent was the gathering of this information considered to be. In fact, I think it is now generally agreed that the results were disappointing, and that although the reports of the teams may have infringed copyrights, they added little to our industrial knowledge. Your Lordships will note that Clause 7 deals with infringements of patents and registered designs, and we have had the difference explained to us. Apparently, this clause does not cover trade marks, and no doubt for very good reasons; but perhaps the Government will give us a little further information on that point. In Clause 9 mention is made of the war period. This is later defined in Clause 13 as beginning on September 3, 1939, and ending on July 9, 1951. It would be interesting to know why this latter date, particularly, is considered appropriate.
Clause 10, as has been explained, deals with property taken by way of reparation: and it will be noted from subsection (6) that the property concerned includes ships. I understand that there are a number of German ships affected which have not been condemned as prize, and in relation to such ships the effect of this Bill may not be beyond dispute. I believe—I may be wrong—that when a ship is condemned as prize, that condemnation is internationally recognised; but it is not so certain that such international recognition will necessarily be given to the

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effect of this Bill if one of the German ships in question should be made the subject of proceedings. By way of illustration, let us suppose that the German shipowners sought to regain their ship by taking legal proceedings when it was in some South American port. Does this Bill go far enough to safeguard the title of the present owner in circumstances of that sort. I should also like to draw your Lordships' attention to Clause 12, and, in particular to the definition of a German enemy as
"an individual being a German national resident in Germany or in enemy territory other than Germany…."
The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has touched on this point, but I should like a little further explanation, because it would include a refugee of German nationality who had taken refuge from the Hitler régime, shall we say, in Denmark, which was later overrun by the Germans. Such a person might not necessarily be an enemy in any real sense, but none the less might lose his rights as if he were a real enemy, under the definition of Clause 12 of this Bill. It may well be an impossibility to exclude such individual cases from the operation of this Bill, but I submit that innocent people of this kind have a case for consideration, and I would ask the Government for further clarification on this point. Apart from these very minor points of criticism. I think this is a most useful Bill, and I hope your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
3.51 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot altogether agree with the noble Lord who has just resumed his seat in commending this Bill. There are certain aspects of it which seem to me to be quite iniquitous, especially in the first Part, which has been welcomed by previous speakers. In effect, it is a Bill to provide that people whose property has been wrongfully disposed of shall be deprived of all their rights in respect of it. That seems to me not only a thoroughly illegal proceeding—only to be made legal, of course, by means of an Act of Parliament—but a thoroughly immoral proceeding, too. I think this is a good example of how one evil is derived from another. It used to be an accepted principle of the law of civilised States that the private properly of an individual was
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not, so to speak, stamped with the impress of the State to which he belonged, and that it could not be lawfully taken by a victorious Power at the end of a war. That principle, which was a sacred principle of international law until the First World War, was abrogated at the Treaty of Versailles. I have always thought that was a thoroughly immoral thing to do, although it was understandable, in a way, in view of the new forms of warfare which prevailed during that period.
But in this last war large numbers of individuals, in all sorts of countries which were thoroughly hostile to the Nazi régime and which were our Allies as far as they could be, but which were overrun by the German armies, became technically enemies, and their property thereupon became subject to our own Statutes; and it became necessary that their property, which was, say, in London or in some other part of this country, should be handed over to the Custodian of Enemy Property and sold by him. There have been cases before our own courts. There is a very good illustration of this in a case in which a Danish chemical company had deposited a large quantity of insulin in a London bank before the war started. As soon as the German armies occupied Denmark that insulin became technically enemy property, and it was handed over to the Custodian, who proceeded to sell it, at very much below its real worth, against competitive offers by concerns in this country, one of which afterwards purchased it from the concern that bought it from the Custodian of Enemy Property, at a very large profit to that purchaser. It has now been held, and no doubt quite correctly as a matter of technical law, that the Danish company is not entitled to have that profit back. Not only does it not get its insulin, but it does not get the profit which was made in this way. That case, of course, is outside this Bill it comes under the Act under which enemy property is taken over by the Custodian.
The purpose of this Bill is to subject property which never was enemy property at all, to exactly the same control. A large number of German Jews who owned property in London and in other parts of this country succeeded in escaping from Germany on the eve of the war. In the chaos of that time, many of them found their way to the United States, to Brazil and to other States all over the world.

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They were not only Jews. Other people living in Denmark, Holland and other countries owning property in England, or Jews who had succeeded in getting their property away in the nick of time—valuable jewellery and articles of that kind—into banks in London, and who afterwards themselves escaped, were unable in the distress of those terrible times to get to London but "fetched up" in this country or that all over the world. This property, on the face of it appearing to be the property of enemy nationals—because so far as the banks or other concerns in London who had the custody of it realised, it belonged to people who were still resident in Germany—was handed over to the Custodian, and the Custodian disposed of it, often at a very small price indeed. If the information which I have is correct, it was disposed of often at not more than a third of its real value, to people who came along and made offers for it. That is understandable in the circumstances, because times were difficult and it is quite intelligible that the Custodian, acting with the best will in the world, should have been prepared to dispose of the property in that way.
But is it right that the purchasers of that property should now be protected by a British Act of Parliament against those people whose property it still morally is? As the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who explained this Bill so lucidly this afternoon, appreciates perfectly well, if you sell somebody's property without any legal authorisation to do so, then the sale is quite ineffective and it remains the property of the original owner. The object of this Bill is to deprive that man of his property; to confirm the position of the person who purchased it, often at a very small figure, and not to give the original owner any right beyond that of receiving what was paid for it, which may not be more than a half or one-third or even one-tenth of its real value. Surely that, on the face of it, is a completely wrong thing. The noble Lord seeks even to deprive him of the interest which may have accrued on this small sum of money, and says that that is necessary in the interests of the taxpayer. I think that is rather a mean attitude to adopt.
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My first inclination was, even if I were the only one, to divide the House against this Bill, but I appreciate that there are many parts of it which are necessary because there are, no doubt, possibilities of technical rights of action which ought not to be encouraged. A bank which handed over valuable jewellery which had been deposited with it to the Custodian would be technically guilty of a conversion, and it is quite right that the bank which acted perfectly properly in that way should be protected. I agree with the noble Lord when he said that it was in the interests of the war effort. But the action of the persons who purchased a great deal of this property—the insulin, for example, in the case to which I referred a moment ago—could hardly by any stretch of imagination be described as necessary in war interests; and it is difficult to see how it was necessary in the war interests that that insulin should be sold at all. One would have thought that it might have been kept for the Danish owners against the time when the Nazis were defeated and peace came once more.
The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, made a great point that many of these claims would be bogus claims and that it would be difficult to prove that they were bogus. But surely it is for the man who makes the claim to satisfy a court of law in this country that he had a genuine claim in the first instance. I cannot see that there is any real force in that argument and I suggest that it is wrong to deprive people of their genuine rights of property on the basis that there may be a certain number of bogus claims which are difficult to deal with. Surely it is a new proposition that because there may be bogus claims the people whose claims are bona fide and genuine should be deprived of their rights. The noble Lord used continually the expression "acquired in good faith" or words of that kind. I cannot find in Clause 3 of this Bill, which is the operative clause in respect of these particular matters, that there is any need for the person who acquired the property or rights to have acted in good faith. Perhaps the noble Lord would point out where that essential condition is proposed in this Bill.
I ask the noble Lord and the Government whether they really think that this part of the Bill is necessary. It may

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save a few pounds, shillings and peace, but I suggest that if it does so it will do so at the expense of a great deal of honour. There are at present a number of unfortunate people who have been harried for many years, who had property which they succeeded in bringing away under great difficulty and strain and who deposited it in this country just before the war. These are affected, and I should like to know how much in pounds, shillings and pence it is calculated that this country is going to save by sacrificing its honour in this way. Many of these people whose property rights are being so confiscated are foreign nationals who have become naturalised in the United States, or in the States of South America, or in other States all over the world; and it does not, in my submission, consort with the honour of this country to take action of this kind, confiscating, in effect, the property of friendly neutrals.
We ourselves are maintaining, and maintaining with great vigour, our rights against the Iranian Government, who broke their Treaty and confiscated British property interests without offering proper compensation. I would remind you of the recent case in which the late Attorney-General, Sir Hartley Shawcross, made a moving and eloquent appeal—the case of the "Rose Mary," which many of your Lordships will have read—against the validation of such wrongful deprivation of rights of property. And now Her Majesty's Government introduce a Bill which, in my submission, is flatly contradictory to the principles which Sir Hartley Shawcross was maintaining and which I submit it has always been the pride of this country to maintain in the past. I therefore associate myself strongly with the words of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in pleading that there should be ample time before the Committee stage and that the Government should seriously consider whether they cannot do something to provide effective compensation for the rights of property which this Bill purports to confiscate. All necessary protection of banks and others against technical actions for conversion and such things can perfectly well be provided for, without sacrificing the genuine rights of the real owners of this property. I am sure that the noble Lord—and, indeed, the noble and learned
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Lord who sits on the Woolsack, who has, with distinction, served as a judge for so long—must realise that this is a very serious business; and I hope they will be able to devise some method of ensuring that the rights of these people are preserved.
4.5 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I rise for only a moment. I am sorry I was not able to be here to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said, though he told me in advance what he was going to say. In the first place, I think it is necessary that we should have some Bill to clear up this matter. All sorts of difficult situations have arisen, through nobody's fault. With much of what the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, said I am in considerable agreement. There will be a great deal of sympathy with his point concerning the property of individuals affected by the war. The old doctrine was that you did not take private property. I can remember Lord Buckmaster protesting violently after the First World War against what we were doing then. It would obviously be an unpleasant thought if, as a result of this Bill, some Jewish refugee who was technically an enemy national but who had managed to escape, say, to Sweden, was deprived of any sort of right to get back his property which had been deposited in an English bank and had been sold. That would be to deal with the matter in a way which would make all of us rather unhappy.
I suggest that the House should give a Second Reading to this Bill to-day and that there should be, as Lord Lucas and Lord Chorley have both asked, ample time to consider between now and the Committee stage the points they have raised. I suggest, further, that whether or not these heart-breaking cases which have been suggested really do arise, the House should be given sonic sort of statement or schedule of the sort of cases that arise. We should be in a much better position if we were able to study the details of the Bill very carefully and find some solution which. is satisfactory to us all. I think that would be a practical solution. I make the further suggestion that, following a practice which we have recently developed in this House, this is a case in which the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and the noble Marquess the Leader of the House might see some of

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us between now and Committee stage. There is no Party controversy about this Bill. We all want to do what is the right thing in the differing circumstances. I can promise that we will help to try to hammer out a solution which will satisfy us all. I must say that in view of what has been said by other speakers we ought to be given an opportunity to consider this Bill very carefully; and it will be helpful if we can have, as I have suggested, some sort of statement as to the nature and type of the cases which may arise.
4.8 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am grateful to the House for the friendly way in which this Bill has been received. To deal with one or two questions which have been put to me by some noble Lords, and with the question that was raised by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, I shall say at once that I have consulted with my noble friend Lord Onslow, who at the moment is dealing with these matters from the Government Front Bench, and he assures me that the "normal channels" will immediately start to flow. This is indeed a complicated Bill, and it is important that we should not rush it. The Government will welcome any assistance they can get. As Lord Jowitt has said, this is a non-Party matter, and we shall most certainly welcome any help in the working out of details and the clarifying of doubtful points. Lord Jowitt asked me whether I could give particulars of the sort of cases that are likely to arise. I can: but I am afraid I have not got them here in a form which would be digestible by the House. I will see that the information shall be made available to the noble Lord.
On Clauses 6 and 7 two or three questions arose which I think I can answer. Clause 6 validates both infringements during the war period and subsequent infringements. That, I am afraid, is inevitable, because they may all flow from what originally was brought out of Germany. It is a difficult and tricky matter and I will go carefully into the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. The same remark applies to Clause 7, an equally difficult one. Clause 7 applies to infringement by anyone because it was agreed internationally some years ago that all German patents were to be thrown open to the public.
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Both these points, and the point about ships raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, in his interesting speech, the point about the identity of the enemy and the Jewish refugee who has gone to Denmark, are all difficult points, and some may well be borderline cases. I think I suggested in my speech, and indeed it is perfectly clear from the Bill, that it is most difficult to lay down a hard and fast rule. If we have not done it sufficiently tidily in the Bill, we shall be most happy to receive the assistance of noble Lords opposite to help make it more tidy still. It has been pretty carefully worked out, but, on behalf of the draftsmen, I certainly would not claim infallibility. I think you will find, when you come to try to improve the Bill, that it is very difficult to cover every case and to meet every objection to it.
There is one thing I should like to say quite definitely. We may not have got this Bill absolutely correct in every detail, but I assure the House that there is nothing whatever dishonourable about it. The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, suggested that there was something in this Bill of which we might be faintly ashamed. I can assure the noble Lord that there is nothing whatever in this Bill of which he need be ashamed in any way, and that his country's honour and name are in no way impugned by any single provision of it. Again, I reassure the House that I will do everything possible to meet the reasoned and helpful criticism that has been made; and so far as lies within my power ample time shall be given to the consideration of the points that have been raised.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

AUXILIARY FORCES BILL [H.L.]
4.14 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Bill which I ask the House to read a second time is a Consolidation Bill, and it will in the ordinary course be sent to the Joint Committee which deals with Consolidation Bills. In accordance with the usual practice, I think it is necessary only for me to move it formally. Accordingly, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a,—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.

HOSPITAL NURSING SERVICES
4.15 p.m.
LORD CROOK LORD CROOK rose to call attention to the Hospital Nursing Services; and to move for Papers, The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is something over four years since your Lordships were last invited to discuss nursing subjects, and to-day, in moving the Motion standing on the Order Paper in my name, I move a Motion phrased in somewhat wider terms, in order to afford an opportunity of looking at a rather wider aspect of the subject than the general aspect of the shortage of nurses which we discussed in 1948. I think it will be agreed by all of us that our efficiency as a nation depends, to a large extent, upon the way in which we can deploy our manpower; and the deploying of our manpower depends, again to a large extent, upon the health that we can bring to our people. At times, such as the occasion of the recent tragic Tube accident and other tragedies, we hear much of the heroism of doctors and nurses; but, as many of your Lordships know, the daily task goes on for all of them, all the time, often unrecognised and unrewarded. How much we owe to them some of us know, and let me say how glad we are to see the noble Lord who is to reply to this Motion to-day sitting there fit and able to reply because he has been the recipient recently of such excellent care from the medical and nursing services.
The truth is that we are fortunate to have in employment in our hospitals today as many as 47,000 fully trained nurses and some 8,000 part-time nurses. I note with some concern that this campares with the statement in 1948 that there were 52,000 trained nurses employed and another 48,000 in training. I quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT, Column 308 of November 9, 1948. The figures, therefore, of present employment fall far short of the ability to meet the needs of the present situation, much less the potential growth of the Health Service.
On the former occasion to which I have referred, I ventured to bring to your Lordships' attention some of the problems which meant that young women were discouraged from becoming student nurses; and I pointed out, or sought to point out, with the assistance of other noble Lords, that the total manpower that was available in the hospital service was not deployed effectively and to the best advantage. On that occasion I suggested that too much domestic employment was given to nurses, and that that was having a prejudicial effect on recruitment. Not only was the value of the nurses already recruited reduced by their wrongful use, but the knowledge of the wrongful use of nurses on domestic work caused others not to come into the service. On that occasion, I had the support of the late Lord Rushcliffe, speaking from his great knowledge of nursing conditions.
I also ventured to suggest to your Lordships' House that the greater employment of part-time nurses would be of considerable value. I had in mind trained nurses who got married and left the hospital service but whose home duties were such that they could spare some period of time in the day to come back and help in the nursing services. I was fortunate to have the support on that matter on that occasion of the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp, and also of the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, who I am glad to note is again with us this afternoon. Lord Amulree made a number of most valuable suggestions, and I hope we shall hear from the noble Lord who is to reply that the Government have looked at them and, indeed, may have found it possible to accept them.
One of the reasons I have waited so long before putting a further Motion on the Order Paper is that on that occasion the noble Lord who was replying for His Majesty's Government indicated that there was about to start work a Committee of Inquiry set up by the Nuffield Provincial Trust. He said he expected that the results of that Inquiry would be of considerable assistance to the Ministry of Health, the Government and this House in showing what the staffing problems were and in showing up by job analysis the best means of using skilled nurses in the most skilled jobs. It is precisely because the Report of the

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Nuffield Provincial Trust has just been published that I have now ventured to invite your Lordships to look at this Motion to-day.
If there is one thing which stands out in that Report, it is that the most skilled nurses are not being used in the most skilful jobs. The Report makes it clear that the allegation which some of us made in 1948, that proper use was not being made of the grade of ward orderly, was true, though we are glad to note that there are 25,000 members of that grade now employed. Perhaps I may detain your Lordships for two or three minutes to tell you of the method which was adopted by the Nuffield Trust team in order to prepare what The Lancet has described as "this most unique Report."
Your Lordships who were interested in the 1948 debate will recall that we had the benefit of the Report of a Working Party set up by the Minister of Health who had undertaken a "job analysis" in hospital life. It was a very small "job analysis." They had looked at the daily routine of thirty-six student nurses, a few midwives and a few staff nurses, in order to establish the nature of the time spent on domestic duties, the amount of time spent on repetition work in nurses' training, and the extent of the overlap between the various training courses. The "job analysis" undertaken by the Nuffield Provincial Trust, which is the subject of this Report, was, however, on a much larger scale. It involved continuous observation over a period of time in entire wards in some twenty-six wards in twelve general hospitals scattered over England and Scotland, so selected as to get the maximum possible coverage of all types. For instance, nine were formerly voluntary hospitals and three were formerly municipal hospitals; eight of them served urban or industrial populations, and four of them served rural populations. They ranged in size from the 200-bed hospital to one with only fifteen beds. They varied in that the two rival systems of training of nurses were each being used in approximately half of the hospitals. The three-shift system for the employment of nurses which some of us advocated to your Lordships in 1948, and to which the noble Lord who replied for the Government on that occasion gave his blessing, was in use in only three
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of the hospitals; the remainder used the two-shift system, with a spell of split duty during the day.
In these twelve hospitals, the happenings in the twenty-six wards were charted minute by minute throughout the twenty-four hours, so as to show not only all the tasks that were performed but even the most minute of interruptions, down to telephone calls. So far as nursing duties were concerned, the most outstanding finding was that almost three-quarters of the time spent on nursing duties in the wards was contributed by student nurses—one of the tragic things that some of us were forecasting in 1948 would happen. Indeed, only 16 per cent. of the time spent on nursing duties was shown to have been given by trained nurses. The sister of a ward is so engaged these days with administrative functions and the like that she gives only a very small percentage of her time to nursing. Nor is the staff nurse in a much better position; she has only a small amount of time to devote to actual nursing. Most of the nursing is done by the girls who are studying and, as I think noble Lords felt in 1948, the total amount of training is established to be absolutely negligible. The highest figure of training recorded in this Report was eleven hours in a week and, be it said with great regret, the lowest was only seven minutes in a week. The Report establishes that a ward sister, in a nine-hour day, gives no less than four and a half hours of her time to organisation matters inside the ward; whereas the student nurse, who is supposed to be learning nursing, gives 75 per cent., or at least 68 per cent., of her time to nursing, depending upon the year of her training period which she has reached.
The Report shows the importance of the ward orderly grade to which some of us referred on that past occasion, but of course the ward orderlies are untrained people. The British Medical Journal, commenting on this Report about the employment of ward orderlies—I do not pretend to be competent to judge, but some of my medical colleagues in this House who follow me may be able to comment on it—expresses the view that many of them could become fairly good auxiliary nurses if they were given the proper opportunity to train in that employment. I should like to know from Her Majesty's Government whether attention is being given to that suggestion.
It is only right to say that in the time that has elapsed since we last discussed this matter there has been a considerable change in respect of domestic work. One of the deterrents to recruitment which worried us so much in 1948 has at least been reduced, in that the total volume of domestic work now performed by student nurses is very much lower—and I am sure we are all glad to know it. Indeed, as the Report makes clear, the amount varies from thirty-five minutes a day, in the first year of the training period, to as low as fifteen minutes a day, in the nurses' fourth year in the hospital. The worrying thing, however, is the nature of the work shown to be performed by student nurses in this large amount of time which they now devote to nursing. They receive only a diminutive instruction, which might well be described by a layman such as myself as alarming. To the taking of pulses and temperatures by student nurses I think we are all accustomed. but when we learn from the Report that, apart from doing dressings, student nurses now give injections, are responsible for checking drugs, carrying out urine tests, and in one case were noted as taking blood pressures, then I think a very serious situation has arisen; and at least one is entitled to express some surprise and concern. Indeed, 72 per cent. of the total time spent on the dressings of patients was shown to be contributed by student nurses, and the theory of wound dressing is, in the main, shown to be picked up rather than taught. I think the Lancet
comment was the right one—namely:
"This kind of practice is a useful makeshift when teachers are scarce, but it cannot be classed as efficient training."
I think that paper well summarised the general position in its editorial, when it reached the conclusion that the student nurse is so little of a student and so much of a nurse, for the same reason that the ward sister is so little of a nurse and so much of a clerk.
My Lords, it works out that the end result of training for nursing to-day is not nursing at all, because the maximum amount of nursing is now done when the young lady is a student. As soon as she becomes a staff nurse the amount of nursing that she does falls. When, by her ability, she manages to become a nursing sister, she cart satisfy herself that thereafter she will never be able to spend
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more than 16 per cent, of her day engaged on nursing. So, just as some of us advocated, four years ago, the relief of the nursing staff by the introduction of more people to do domestic and lower grade jobs, so it seems that there is now a case for considering the appointment of a person of clerical or secretarial type who, without any interference with the nursing functions of the sister or the staff nurse, might take over some of those jobs of filling in forms and looking after telephone calls which are now done by the ward sister, to the great misuse of the skill which she has attained by such devotion to duty during the years before.
The misuse of the services of sisters and staff nurses in general is clearly established in the Report. Nurses walk backwards and forwards carrying bowls of water, nobody apparently having thought of organising a system in which the bulk supply of water in the ward is moved on a trolley by a domestic or ward orderly. But how can one expect that some of these things would have been thought of, when there is a bland little paragraph, which I am sure must have amused the noble Lord who will reply for the Government, as it has me—to the effect that
"a shortage of matches was the cause of many wasted journeys to and fro with a taper."
I cannot believe that that is general, but it is typical of the kind of thing which someone ought to start trying to put right. Similarly, there are comments relating to the manner in which food has to be dealt with It is recorded that long loaves are sometimes sent up for the nurses to cut up by hand for the patients. These are trained people, and they are kept away from their task of looking after patients in order to spend time laboriously cutting up these long loaves. The average hospital does not seem to have heard of ready sliced loaves—in fact none of the hospitals under review does.
Much of the waste of manpower, I want to say straight away, is due to the poor design of buildings and the shortage of good equipment. I am a realist, and therefore I do not want to blame anyone particularly for that, or to throw criticisms about. Being a realist, I realise that the National Health Service inherited a large number of Poor Law buildings the construction of which paid regard all the time

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to keeping down the rates and costs generally. The Service also inherited a large number of hospitals which were in a parlous condition financially, being unable to get sufficient money from the public on whom they had to rely for voluntary contributions. I realise, too, that because we were rather ahead of other countries in providing hospital treatment, many of our hospitals are now completely out of date, whereas some other countries that took up later the kind of treatment with which we started have somewhat better hospitals.
It follows, therefore, that the mere fact that in the last few years the State has taken over these buildings and this equipment does not mean that the State, whatever Party are in power, can, as it were, through the Ministry of Health, wave a fairy wand and immediately produce a cure for all these troubles and difficulties. For that reason, I would press upon the Government that there should be some system of priorities to make certain that the expenditures are now made in the right way, that they are made so as to get the maximum possible results in the easing of the manpower problem, generally making the job easier than it is, and providing some of the equipment which is so badly needed. Parts of the Report really are tragic to read. For instance, the Report makes it clear that there is a great shortage of such elementary hospital equipment as bedpans and wash-bowls. In one instance, there were only five bedpans for twenty-eight female patients, and seven wash-bowls for thirty-seven patients. Those are regrettable figures. And this ought not to be the position in respect of a State Health Service of this kind. Sterilisers for the bedpans have rarely been installed. Student nurses were seen wasting time daily disinfecting bedpans, and I was amazed to read that three wards performed the sterilising operation with fish kettles on gas rings. Two other wards had no means of sterilising bowls other than by flaming with methylated spirit. In one hospital, which I believe is supposed to be modern, the sterilising room had no running water. The only water for sterilising purposes was brought in jugs from the kitchen.
Let me say how much I welcome the publication by the Ministry of Health in the last month or two of the valuable
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document entitled The Reception and Welfare of In-Patients in Hospital. This document was prepared by the Central Health Service Council. I was glad to note, in paragraph 74, the recommendation to hospital management committees that equipment of this sort should be up to date and hygienic, and that every ward should have adequate facilities for sterilisation of bedpans. I was glad to note, too, that the comment is made that this is the kind of thing which can be afforded, even at this time. The Council say that they see no reason why financial stringency should prevent the carrying out of these recommendations. Whether these recommendations are to be accepted by the Ministry of Health I do not know—perhaps the noble Lord who is to reply on behalf of the Government will tell us, and perhaps he will tell us also if this publication is to be circulated. It would be very gratifying if we could get this allocation of priorities, and we might then see, even if major structural changes at hospitals cannot yet be undertaken, such things as new water taps, wash basins and lavatories installed where there is a shortage. All of this would help the considerably over pressed and overworked nursing services. At this point I would venture to give your Lordships a quotation from the Lancet. Somewhat sarcastically in reviewing this Report, that journal said:
"It is customary just now to talk about economising our nursing power. One simple way to do it would be to provide nurses with the tools of theft trade in adequate quantity."
I could never hope to say anything quite so well and so adequately.
The comfort, the welfare and even the safety of life of the people of this country may depend on some of the improvements which we ought to make. By ancient custom the patient must be awakened, washed, eased and fed before the medical staff appear on the ward. This is the subject of a very valuable chapter in the Report. The custom means, apparently, getting patients up as early as 5 a.m. Of twenty-two wards, of which there are details in the Report, only four had the patients' tasks commenced at any time after 5 a.m. In eighteen cases the time was actually 5 a.m. The earliest was 4.15 a.m. Indeed, in only one ward was the washing round started after 5 a.m. In some cases the round started at 4.30 a.m. The making

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of the beds for the day was the actual starting task, as early as 4.45 a.m. in one case. I deliberately mention that part of the Report in order to bring to your Lordships' attention a further extract from this valuable document, The Reception and Welfare of In-Patients in Hospital. It reads:
"We suggest that no patients, apart from those receiving special treatment, should have to be awakened before 6 o'clock, and later if possible."
I hope we may hear from the noble Lord who is going to reply that that recommendation of the Council has the support of Her Majesty's Government.
All these things would help to relieve the pressure on these short staffs. And how limited these staffs are was shown by the replies to Questions which I put to Her Majesty's Government a few weeks ago. The number of under-staffed hospital beds in April this year was shown by the Government reply to one of my Questions to be no fewer than 28,502. The same reply indicated that the employing authorities responsible for hospitals estimated to the Ministry of Health that the present shortage of nurses of which they are conscious is 10,420. At the time of our last debate the estimated shortage was 12,575. So, in the four and a half years that have followed, the improvement in the shortage position has been very slow.
Time will not permit, and your Lordships would not wish, me to go on from general hospitals to deal with a number of very serious points about mental hospitals and sanatoria; but some of the facts in that connection are shocking. In many mental hospitals, particularly on the female side, a nurse is responsible for up to seventy patients. I have been given in the last few weeks details of one mental hospital where a nurse goes off duty and leaves a patient in charge, locking the door behind her as she leaves duty. In those cases the only care and attention is the visit by an administrative sister or nurse from another ward, who has to leave her own ward while she pays that visit. That is not the fault of anyone in the hospital it is entirely due to the shortage of staff and the existing inability to do anything about it.
I hope, therefore, the House will be given one important assurance by the noble Lord replying for the Government this afternoon—that is, about the 5 per
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cent. reduction in staffs which I believe the Ministry have told management committees to make. Indeed, I hope the Government will go further, because I believe that management committees have been instructed to submit to the Ministry details of staffs in post at a fixed date, and that the number given is to be recorded as the establishment and to represent the maximum number of posts which there can be inside the hospital. Thereafter, no additional staff will be engaged without the prior approval of the Ministry. I am all for fixing establishments, and I quite appreciate the necessity for submitting the figures to the Ministry, so that the Ministry may see that there is no wrongful use of manpower by diversion of people to the wrong places, at a time when female labour of this kind is so scarce and we are trying to staff the hospitals under these conditions. Nevertheless, I suggest to the noble Lord that to impose this kind of condition on management committees who have wards closed because there are 10,000 nurses short and who have 28,000 beds unused because of under-staffing, is to tackle the thing the wrong way round, especially when, as we all know, so many thousands of members of the public are waiting for medical and surgical attention. I do not think that such restrictions should be imposed on management committees. If the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, can tell us either that this is not true or, alternatively, that for under-staffed hospitals, and hospitals with beds not in use, there will be some easing up in the proposed cut, that will go some way towards helping the position.
This issue goes even deeper. If this 5 per cent. cut is applied to domestic staff, where do we stand? Cutting the domestic staff by 5 per cent. does not cut down domestic work by 5 per cent., and once again this will cause the domestic work to fall on the student nurses. They will flow out of the hospitals faster even than now—and we know how fast they are going. Then, too, the knowledge that domestic work is falling on student nurses will slow down the already slow rate of recruiting of nurses. I think the Ministry need to look into this carefully.
Finally, I hope the noble Lord will be able to assure us that there is to be no waste of time in examining the valuable Report of the Nuffield Trust and adopting as many as possible of its

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recommendations, only a few of which I have touched on sketchily in the course of the last half-hour. This is a most valuable Report, as I imagine the Minister will say, and my noble friends who are doctors and who are to follow me in the debate will agree. Probably there is nothing new in it from the point of view of many of us, but it contains a record of facts set down by a reputable body—not just casual suggestions of people like myself with no real authority. As the Lancet said:
"…this report gives the backing of fact, which those advocating experiment have long needed."
It does not bring to light much that many of us who have taken part in these debates do not know, but it gives the facts necessary to help us to improve this great service of ours which has a great part to play in this country. I hope the Government will be able to tell us this afternoon of their plans for future action, and that they will be able to promise us a further debate at an early date, when perhaps we may hear that further progress has been made as a result of this Report. I beg to move for Papers.
4.45 p.m.
LORD MORAN: My Lords, more than three-quarters of the inhabitants of these islands—that is to say, the majority of the population—when they are ill in hospital are nursed by student nurses who have neither completed their training nor passed their final examinations. Therefore it is of some consequence that these nurses should have the benefit of instruction and supervision by trained nurses. When that does not happen, either because there is a scarcity of nurses or, alternatively, because the nurses are occupied with other duties in the wards, then it becomes a matter of public concern.
The scarcity of nurses is not a passing factor. The wastage of student nurses in training is 50 per cent. Of every two girls who begin with the intention of becoming nurses, only one completes the course. When one hears that the chief factor in that wastage is marriage, it becomes less hopeful to tackle it. I think we may say there is general agreement that we cannot look for any great increase in the number of trained nurses in the
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future. We have to concentrate on making the best use of those we already have. Therefore, we come at once to the question: is the time of the nurse wasted in any way? Are there any of her activities which could be done by somebody who is not a nurse or, alternatively, could be cut out altogether? The job analysis, to which the noble Lord, Lord Crook, has referred, gives us the material with which to answer that question.
I do not imagine you will think I am ungenerous to the authors of this valuable Report if I sound a note of warning. A man of many years must have seen many fashions come and go. I remember, in the kindred field of medical education, how Abraham Flexner descended on us from across the Atlantic and bestrode us like a Colossus. We who were concerned with medical education were left with a feeling that, compared with middle Europe, we were unscientific and unorganised. Any system of education must be judged by its fruits, and nowadays we are not so certain as we were that the German ideals of education are sound. Nowadays, the fashion is for working parties and job analyses. They are invaluable to prevent thinking without the facts, but there is always a danger that we may get the facts without the thinking.
Let us apply this valuable Report to the question I put a moment ago—namely, are there any activities of the nurse which could be done by somebody who is not a nurse or cut out altogether? At the outset, I wonder whether some of the nursing procedures are not apt to degenerate into rituals. Some months ago I had an operation. I was not ill—I golfed the day before—but when it was all over, although I was admirably nursed, at all hours of the day nurses came and vigorously rubbed my back in order that I might not get a bed sore. When they had gone, others appeared and chaperoned me through deep-breathing exercises, to prevent my getting pneumonia after the anæsthetic. No doubt these procedures are invaluable in the appropriate cases, but I think we might plead for a certain amount of discrimination in the choice of the victim. Again, is it really necessary to take the pulse, respiration and temperature of every patient twice daily up to the very moment he walks out of the ward as a convalescent?

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Again, take the ward sister's nine-hour day—take only two items in that day. One hour is devoted to clerical work. I went through this and found that nearly all of it could be done by a secretary. But when an enterprising and well-known provincial hospital instituted the secretarial system, they were told to desist on the grounds of economy. Another hour of this nine-hour day is given up to going round with doctors. In the male ward, surely, much of that is unnecessary. At the risk of offending many of my own calling, I would say that no doctor should go round before ten o'clock in the morning, or between the hours of twelve noon and two o'clock, or after five o'clock. We must co-operate more with our nursing friends if they are really going to economise their time. Then we come to the almost complete absence of labour-saving devices, to which reference has already been made. I give your Lordships only one example. In the twenty-six weeks which this Report covers, 194 hours were spent by nurses in moving heavy screens from point A in the ward to point B. If we could simply have curtains around the bed, with a flick of the wrist all that might be eliminated. Surely, when we are spending £400 million or more every year on the Health Service we should not shrink from a single, non-recurrent, small capital expenditure of this kind. And I have given your Lordships only a few examples of how some, at least, of the activities of the trained nurse might be eliminated or done by somebody who is not a nurse.
I pass to the much more controversial question: Are there any of her activities which must be done by a nurse, but not necessarily by a trained nurse? Why is this more controversial? It is because there are two conflicting arguments, both of them very strong. On the one hand, the very centre of the theme of this job analysis is that administration has taken away the trained nurse from the bedside, and that it is our job to get her back to the patient. That is an overwhelming argument. How do we judge a nurse? We judge her by the accuracy and the discrimination of her observations. Where will she learn that, except at the bedside; and where, having learnt it, will she keep it fresh but at the bedside? If it be said, as it will be, that many of these bedside nursing operations are
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repeated time and again, I would quote a wise matron who said to me: "It is by doing these things many times that nurses learn to adjust their procedures to the very various temperaments of the innumerable patients they have to nurse." Again, a wise woman, who was not a nurse, said to me: "My babies were all bottle-fed, but I did it myself, because that is the only way to get to know the difference between my babies and other babies." In other words, the repetition of these apparently menial duties allows the nurse to get to know her patient. It seems to me that that is an overwhelming argument.
But the argument on the other side is almost equally strong. Perhaps before I go on to that other argument I ought to take up one point in this job analysis—namely, the stress that is laid upon the taking away of the nurse from the bedside by administration. The Committee obviously regret profoundly that the average nurse looks upon administration as her end and aim in life. It is inevitable, because administration is not only looked upon as promotion, but it is better paid. We have the grave warning of what happened in the Royal Army Medical Corps. There, after a certain stage, a man must give up clinical work for administration or he will not get to the top. As the result, that service has been made less attractive to the doctor and is at present very short of personnel. The other argument is this. It is said that all these bedside duties, or most of them, should be done by a pair of hands belonging to a person who is not as skilled as the trained nurse. This Report shows that three-quarters of the nursing is done by student nurses, arid apparently adequately done, and therefore, it logically follows that at a time of great scarcity of trained nurses we should provide to do those duties a pair of hands belonging to a person less skilled than a trained nurse.
This brings me to the question of dilution. Nobody that I know has ever introduced dilution into any trade or profession without profound controversy. But we have had dilution amongst almoners; amongst dentists it is still being considered; and the doctor has already been diluted. After all, what is the nurse? The nurse is dilution. She is now doing jobs which the doctor did

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years ago. It is inevitable that we should have dilution in the nursing profession. Those who speak for the nursing profession, like those who speak for my calling, are generally attached to teaching hospitals. The result is that perhaps our horizon is a little narrow. But I would remind the nursing profession that half the hospital beds in this country are in mental hospitals. Surely the case for dilution of the nursing profession is overwhelming. Who is to be the diluting agent? If it could be the assistant nurse, we should all be happy. The assistant nurse trains for two years instead of three or four; her training is practical, with a minimum of theory. Unfortunately, many nurses if they are not getting on well with their examinations, when they are advised to become assistant nurses, say: "If I cannot be a proper nurse I will not become a nurse at all." That is a grievously mistaken attitude. These assistant nurses are invaluable. But, whatever we may say about them at the present time, there does not appear to be any prospect of getting anything like enough of them.
That brings me to the controversial subject of the orderly. I believe I am not misquoting the nursing profession when I say that, generally speaking, they feel that an orderly should do domestic duties and not even engage in minor nursing procedures. But I feel that if an orderly were trained for a year, he would be a most useful pair of hands, at any rate in hospitals where acute cases are not treated. I hope that the nursing profession, in the crisis we are now going through because of the scarcity of trained nurses, will give the most careful attention to the use of the orderly. When you get these two conflicting arguments, the verdict is quite obvious. If we had enough trained nurses, then they should be taken to the bedside; but, in the present scarcity, we have no option but the dilution of the nursing profession. When we are concerned with the proper use of trained nurses, it is obvious that we ought for a moment to glance at the question of redistribution. The tidy mind will find that in the sanatoria devoted to tuberculosis, in the mental hospitals and in the institutions devoted to the chronic sick and to the elderly, there is probably—I have not the figures—a gross shortage of trained nurses. I would say only two things about that: first, if
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a nurse is to be sent there she must go voluntarily—there can be no direction of labour; secondly, at a time when nurses are so scarce, it is surely wise to be very prudent before we further deplete the hospitals where acute illness is nursed.
Now I end as I began, with student nurses. This Report says that the student nurse is left to her own devices; that she is neither taught nor supervised, and that even the arrangement of her hours is so constructed that many finish their training and are found not to have served in important departments. If that is true, it does not matter, because very shortly, before she will be able to go up for her final examinations, she will have to be signed up—that is to say, she will have to produce a certificate to testify that she has worked a proper time in each department. I think the trained nurse would say of these criticisms that they are gross exaggerations. She would say that they take no account of the teaching which takes place outside the wards; of the three months' preliminary instruction before she enters the wards at all, and, where the block system operates, of the twenty-six weeks—more than six months—when the nurse is taken away entirely from the wards and given theoretical training. My answer would be that that is no substitute whatsoever for teaching by the bedside. When I think of all the hours and years that I and other physicians and surgeons have tried to stimulate the student's mind to observation and to make him ask the "Why?" of everything, I cannot believe that the student nurse's mind is less in need of this stimulation, this encouragement to observe and think.
But if we are to do this, then let us do it after an English model, and not in the manner of our American friends. I speak from hearsay only, but it would appear that in America there are two kinds of nurse—the nurse who can do technical procedures is called a graduate nurse, and the nurse who cannot is called a practical nurse. Now it is the graduate nurse who counts. She is really a junior doctor, but she dislikes very much what may be called menial duties. If you have been ill in America, as I have, you will realise that you do not get anything of what we mean by nursing. Even in England, of late years, technical nursing has been exalted over basic nursing. For example, as the training of the junior nurse goes on, more and more time is

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devoted to technical nursing at the expense of basic nursing, and in her examinations emphasis is almost entirely on technical procedures. Does it matter? It matters very greatly, because there is an element in human nature which finds great satisfaction in rushing about and doing things. It is so much more preferable to the lonely processes of thought. And it has always been so; more than 300 years ago Pascal said that most of the wrongs and the evils of mankind arise through man's inability to sit still in a room and think. Therefore, these procedures are weaning the nurse away from the difficult art of observation.
It is very easy, in a debate of this kind, to over-simplify—to fall into error in that way. I have been content to try and submit to your Lordships that, at a time when there is a scarcity of trained nurses, much of their activities must be reviewed, because so only can we get the supervision and the teaching of the nurse in training, the nurse of to-morrow, to teach her the elements of her art. I even hope that in a properly constituted State, administration may not be the peak of every nurse's ambition. It is a great pleasure to your Lordships that the Government reply will be made by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton. I do not think anybody is really fully qualified to discuss nursing until they have been a patient, and I am sure that what he will say will have the truth that comes from actual experience.
5.6 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, before I address a few remarks to your Lordships, I should like to join the two previous speakers in expressing my great pleasure that the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, is to reply to this debate, and to say how glad I am to see him back in his place once again. The subject of nursing has been very widely covered by the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and my noble friend and colleague, Lord Moran, and I do not propose to cover the ground that they have already traversed. I should like to make one or two extra observations which may be germane to the subject.
We are told that about 10,000 or 12,000 nurses are still required, and that the total number involved in hospitals is not quite so big as when we had our debate four years ago. One of the things which puzzles me is whether we can continue
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to make this great call upon the young educated women of the country to take up the nursing profession. One of the rather frightening things is something that I read in the Report of the Royal Commission on Population, which came out in 1949. In Table 40, they estimated that the number of persons between the ages of fifteen and forty will drop from 18 million to about 16½million by 1962. On page 98 of the Report they report the conclusion that the number of young grown-up people between fifteen and thirty-nine years of age will show a fall of about 1½ million during the next fifteen years. It will be from among those kind of people that the young nurses will be called in the future, and I wonder whether hospitals, local authorities and industrial firms employing nurses realise what is likely to be the position.
I was pleased to read in the Ministry's circular, B.G. (52) 127 Economy in Manpower, which has already been quoted, that hospitals were encouraged to look at their staffs to see whether there were any means by which they could economise. When I raised this matter before, I thought it was a command from the Ministry, but I was told by the noble Earl that it was only an encouragement. I think that is the sensible line to take, because I believe that the supply may fall a great deal more below the demand than it is now. Therefore, I should like to join the noble Lord, Lord Moran, in saying that some form of dilution is the only way round our difficulties. I do not want to cover the ground that the noble Lord has already traversed, because I am in agreement with. what he said, but there are one or two other ways in which I think we can dilute the nursing profession without doing any serious harm. One is by making different arrangements for them to care for more people in the future than they do now. I do not mean that I wish to increase their work or hours or anything like that, but recently one or two schemes have been set going whereby patients can be discharged from hospital properly and rather more quickly than before, which means that the same staff can deal with rather more patients. There is the rather interesting scheme at Cambridge, where, by co-operation with general practitioners and with the district nursing service, patients—that is to say, mainly surgical patients

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with clean operations—can be discharged within four or five days, instead of ten days. As far as I can make out, this has led to no increase in the district nursing service and means that nurses can take more patients.
The noble Lord, Lord Moran, referred to the chronic sick. In one hospital at which I work, which was a chronic sick hospital, they managed to use the nurses in such a way that they visited patients at a particular time before they were due to go into hospital, and in many instances it was found that the people did not need to come into hospital at all. Furthermore if you can choose your patients rather carefully—not in an unpleasant way, but because they are ill—and bring them in quickly, you can get them back to their homes again in a much shorter time than if they had had to wait a long time before they came in. That, again, is a form of making your nursing power go a great deal further than before. Those are the points that I want to make to the noble Lord who is going to reply for the Government.
There is, however, just one further point which I should like to make with regard to what a nurse should do. After all, we must not forget that the most important person in a hospital is the patient. The second most important is the nurse; but the patient comes first. Therefore when you say that the training of nurses has got to be paramount and the needs of the hospital second, I do not altogether agree. I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord Moran, when he says that the teaching of nurses should be done at the bedside. Teaching is done by taking care of your patient. One of the things which the Working Party emphasises is that the patient gets to know the nurse when the nurse is doing the daily nursing—looking after the daily hygiene, comfort in bed, feeding, taking away of body waste. The patient gets to know the nurse in this way, and it is very important that the student nurse should concentrate on that and not try to become a doctor.
It is curious to note that in 1947 a Working Party on the training of nurses suggested that the training might be made two years' or eighteen months' basic training, followed by specialised training for a period. That proposal has not been
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accepted, so I take it that it was frowned upon by the powers-that-be. But it seems to me that the danger now is that we get too many nurses trained to too high a standard. They are, in fact, going to be not very good doctors, rather than very good nurses. Although the medical service has been diluted by nurses it is possible to carry that a little too far and make these trained nurses of a higher standard than is necessary. It always seems to me to be rather a pity to make the trained nurses' standard too high. The nurse so trained looks for an administrative job; no other would give an increased salary. The standard is so high that it approaches very closely to what was the final you could obtain when you were trained. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Crook, for bringing up this question, because it is one of great interest and importance to everyone. I am sure that we shall have an encouraging reply from the noble Lord who is to speak for Her Majesty's Government.
5.15 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, I too should like to express thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Crook, for bringing this matter forward, and for the way in which he made clear many things which are at present obscure. The noble Lord mentioned that there were 47,000 fully trained nurses actually in service. A Question put down by Lord Crook the other day produced the Answer that there are in training 50,470 student nurses. That is a considerable number. I think it is very unfortunate that this proportion exists, because the difficulty is to keep the student nurses until they finally get their qualifications. What the noble Lord, Lord Moran, said is, of course, very interesting; we can rely on his great administrative experience and his equally great professional experience over a long period of years. But when he said that dilution of the nursing profession is inevitable, I frankly regard that as a defeatist argument. We must do something more drastic with the nursing profession; we must do something which is more productive of efficiency, something more than merely unlimited dilution. It is true that there is a great deal of difference between ordinary nursing and nursing in a mental hospital, between certain other types of nursing and nursing in the acute ward of some of the big

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hospitals or the big teaching hospitals, which deal with a large number of accident and other urgent cases. But to use the word "dilution" is unfortunate, because there is already in the nursing profession far too much dilution. That is one of the difficulties.
Lord Moran also thought that orderlies should do certain nursing tasks. But there are already a considerable number of male nurses, properly trained, and other orderlies can be trained to do these duties and can then become nurses; but I adhere to professional standards in this respect. I think we ought to have carefully trained people, rather than those who have just "picked up" the knowledge as they went along and have not had adequate training. I am glad that the noble Lord made reference to the American system of nurses, and that he did not approve of the system. The American methods of nursing organisation are entirely different from our own. I find myself very much in agreement with what Lord Amulree said in his interesting speech, but he also, unfortunately, thought that dilution was necessary. I hope he will reflect on that again and see whether we do not need something more fundamental.
The noble Lord, Lord Crook, mentioned that trained nurses spend only 16 per cent. of their time on nursing, while student nurses spend up to 74 per cent. of their time looking after patients. It is difficult to contemplate calmly fiat state of affairs because it means, in fact, that the student nurses are bearing on their shoulders the main burden of nursing. Most senior student nurses and staff nurses interviewed by those who went round the hospitals under the auspices of the Nuffield Provisional Hospitals Job Analysis work were contemplating further training, presumably to fit them for administrative and other special posts. I notice that the Nursing Mirror has this to say:
"One cannot escape the conclusion that, at present, the end result of nurse training for the hospital service is not nursing but administration."
The Nursing Mirror is an authoritative paper, and its opinions are regarded with the greatest possible respect as being of considerable importance. Basic nursing, although occupying 71 per cent. of nursing time, is progressively less and less the occupation of the nurse advanced in
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training. Very little time is given to the instruction of student nurses. The Report says:
"In no wards in hospitals studied did Sister Tutor come into the wards."
Many complaints by student nurses about the incompleteness of their ward experiences were received when the members of the Committee went round. Then I noticed an interesting leader in the Nursing Mirror of February 27, which said this:
"No one reading this Report with an impartial mind can fail to arrive at the conclusion that in this administrative chaos the patient's comfort and whole well-being are lost in the complications of the set-up intended to preserve them."
The Nursing Mirror looks forward to the medical and nursing professions analysing and facing the facts brought out in the Nuffield Report, and expresses the gratitude of the whole nursing profession to the Nuffield team for the work they have done.
I think we should face the facts. We must agree, I think, that there is no immediate solution in prospect, and the Report of the Nuffield Trust does not in fact offer one. What it offers is a survey of the facts discovered. I would remind those who may not have looked at the Report that this investigation was carried out, not by doctors but by qualified, high-grade people who were non-medical, in order to look at the thing quite impartially, without any professional bias. In the Nursing Mirror, from which I quote again—because in this way the Nursing Mirror undoubtedly speaks for the nursing profession—a leading article on March 13 speaks of "The proper task of the nursing profession." It says:
"Something must be done about the 'Job Analysis' report, for it shows up a situation which is extremely disquieting and for which we cannot escape responsibility. We are here, in the nursing and medical worlds, to nurse the patient, and somehow we have let a situation grow up in which the basic nursing of the patient has been turned over to the untrained or the little trained person, with no adequate supervision; a situation in which there are virtually no trained nurses in hospital doing nursing."
That is a very serious statement made by a responsible journal representing the nursing profession. May I pay my tribute to the courage and the resolution expressed in the attitude of the nursing profession, as interpreted with such vigour and understanding in the Nursing Mirror?

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May I draw attention, also, to one other very important fact in the nursing profession, and that is the wastage of student nurses to which the Report calls attention. A large proportion of the nurses who enter the profession as student nurses leave it before completing their training. No doubt, some of them leave for marriage, as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, said, but undoubtedly, if the profession were more attractive, it would probably mean that a good many fewer of them would leave, and it would not be unattractive to those who want to be nurses. Will the noble Lord who is to reply let us know what action the Government are prepared to take to remedy the situation revealed? I do not think it will be enough for him to say that the matter will be seriously examined. I think that some action must be taken to see whether we cannot tackle the nursing difficulties which now confront all hospitals in the land. The truth is that at the present time we are not able to give adequate and proper nursing to the patients admitted to some of the hospitals. It is true that the large teaching hospitals and many of the large hospitals in the big cities give excellent nursing; but it is also true that in some of the small hospitals which not very long ago were places like Poor Law infirmaries the arrangements for medical treatment are by no means as good as they should be, and sometimes they are definitely bad.
The nursing profession is ready to help, and I feel that the medical profession also will help. Here is something which can be done by agreement, and in which the primary consideration is not length of hours or amount of salary received, although these have their great importance. But essentially the demand is: "Let the nursing profession be able to give better service to the sick and suffering." This better service must solve the difficulties and, in fact, the dangers revealed by the present situation, and the nursing profession will certainly throw in its weight to help in every way possible. May I say, in conclusion, that some of the highest medical authorities in this country strongly approve the attitude of the nursing profession and will be willing to help to achieve the better use of nursing services which the Report of the Nuffield Trust shows to be urgently necessary.
5.26 p.m.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Crook, not for the first time, has placed both the nursing profession and your Lordships' House in his debt for having raised, as he has done in a broad manner, the whole question of the nursing profession. This is an extraordinary Chamber. In the fourteen years in which I have been a member of it I recall no occasion on which, when a subject has been brought up for debate, we have not found a number of experts who are all prepared to come along and place their expert knowledge at our disposal. To-day the noble Lord, Lord Crook, has done this from his own point of view. We have had the lengthy experience of such eminent doctors as the noble Lords, Lord Moran, Lord Amulree and Lord Haden-Guest, who, from their intimate knowledge of this subject, gained professionally, have sought to help us. As the patient is by general consent the most important person on this issue, I present myself to your Lordships as the person most recently qualified by prolonged personal experience to deal with this subject. Perhaps it would not be considered amiss if I expressed my intense gratitude to the nursing profession for the benefits I have received from it. And will your Lordships forgive me if I say how grateful I was to your Lordships for passing on to me messages of goodwill at a time when I was considerably in need of outside support?
It is always difficult, as your Lordships know, for any Minister to reply in detail for a Department over which he has not any detailed control. I have every reason to suppose that the Minister who is responsible will be very well aware of the debate that has taken place in your Lordships' House, and perhaps it would be convenient if I were to suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Crook, that to the questions which I cannot answer, because I did not know that he was going to ask me them, I should ask the Minister to enable me to reply or, if it would be more convenient, to reply himself.
The discussion in so far as it has gone this afternoon might lead one to think that the situation was rather worse than it is, but there are good sides to this

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subject. Many of them, I agree, are probably due to the debates that have taken place here. The nursing force in this country has increased by two-and-a-half times in the last fifty years, so we are making some progress. The demand has increased even more, but that also is a sign of progress—we are taking more care of the sick. Nursing was out of fashion for a period in the middle of these fifty years, but I think it has shown every sign of coming back and—so importantly—of being recognised as one of the noble professions of the country. I am sure your Lordships will agree that you recruit nursing staff not so much by stereotyped regulations as by showing the people who might go into it that it is a profession that is held in high esteem by the public of this country, even when they arc well. I submit to your Lordships that during the period since the war the Ministry of Health has done a very good job in encouraging recruiting.
In 1947, the Ministry setup the Working Party to which reference has been made. Since I became interested in this particular subject for the purpose of to-day's debate, I have never been quite certain why when the Working Party was engaged on its task in 1947 it did not take a job analysis and find out what it was that nurses did. That was left to the Nuffield Trustees who, by no means for the first time, have placed this country considerably in their debt. They have produced a wealth of new information. One of your Lordships (I think it was Lord Haden-Guest) asked me what is going to be done, because, he said, this is a time for action. Let me give him some assurance on that point by telling him that the Minister of Health received this Report at the beginning of April this year and immediately summoned his Advisory Committee, which met on April 29, in order that it might advise him as to the action which he should take. He is indeed anxious that no time shall be lost. Your Lordships will appreciate that this Report covers a period of time, although the actual job analysis took only a short time. Evidently the Nuffield team have gone to a great deal of trouble in analysing the figures and in working out their implications, because they have had them for three years, and during that time I hope there have been a certain number of improvements.
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I think the House will be grateful to Lord Moran, as I am, for many things that he said, but particularly for one phrase which I hope I have remembered correctly—that we must not let the facts prevent us from thinking. Those of us who are very much prone to ask, "What are the facts?" must recognise that there is something else to do when we have got the facts, and that is to think about them. I am not quite so depressed as some of your Lordships appear to be by the fact that 74 per cent. of the basic work in hospitals is done by student nurses. A great deal of that work does not require high professional skill, although it does, indeed, require a great deal of personal kindness. The professional skill that is necessary can be provided by other than student nurses. A great deal of the work that is done for patients does not require such a high rate of skill as to justify a fully trained nurse doing it. I mention that only because I do not want your Lordships to get too depressed by this figure which, put baldly, suggests that 75 per cent. of the work is done by students. This might lead one to suppose that the patients are being badly neglected. That is certainly not my experience.
The point that I gained out of reading the Nuffield Report was the importance that they attach, I think very rightly, to the need for a reorganisation of hospital services. I had many long talks with nurses and, feeling, as I did, very important as the patient, I was horrified to find that promotion went in the line of administration. At the moment I was thinking very little of administration. It is a great pity if highly trained nurses are being called upon to do clerical work which involves an entirely different sort of capacity and a different attitude of mind; and it seems to me from this Report that the things we ought to look to are to see what reorganisation we can get, both in the direction of the personnel employed in administration and also in the fuller use of orderlies—a subject on which, in a different capacity, Lord Amulree and I have had a common interest for some time.
LORD CHORLEY: May I ask the noble Lord a question? I am not sure whether he is now passing from the position of the student nurses. Before passing from that subject, would he

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devote a few words to the very disturbing thought that these student nurses are being employed to make injections, take blood counts and engage in matters of that kind?
LORD WOOLTON: I should be quite unqualified to deal with that problem, which is obviously entirely a medical problem, and I do propose to pass from it. In regard to the question of the supply of nurses, I think the noble Lord, Lord Crook, was quoting from figures taken from a different basis when he said that there were fewer nurses now than there were in 1948. While he was speaking I was advised that the figures that he quoted for 1948 were for Great Britain as a whole. The figures that have been given to me are these: that the number of full-time trained nurses in England and Wales only has gone up from 40,000 to 47,600 in the last four years, and that student nurses have gone up in number from 42,000 to 50,500; there has been a drop of 500 in the total of assistant nurses—from 12,000 to 11,500—but other nursing staff has gone up from 16,000 to 25,500. I hope I have not wearied your Lordships in giving these figures, because I could have given you the total figure and saved you the rest. The total figure is one of 135,000 full-time nurses of varying grades now, as compared with 110,000 in 1948. These figures are for England and Wales only. With regard to the shortage of beds, to which the noble Lord referred, in 1948, there was a bed shortage, due to shortage of nurses, of 57,000. In 1952, the number of un-staffed beds was 28,500. I have no doubt about the seriousness of the present shortage—
EARL JOWITT: Could the noble Lord equate the shortage of beds with the shortage of nurses? I think he spoke of a shortage of 28,500 beds. Can he give me an idea—or if he cannot do so, perhaps the Minister will do it later on—what that means in terms of shortage of nurses? If the noble Lord does not happen to have the figure, perhaps the Minister will supply it.
LORD CROOK: The figure given by the Ministry in answer to a question was something just over 10,000.
LORD WOOLTON: Lord Crook asked whether the publication entitled The Reception and Welfare of In-Patients in
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Hospital has been circulated. It has been circulated to all hospital authorities, and the recommendations in it have been commended to them by the Minister. The noble Lord raised another question and that was concerning the cut in staff. I do not know whether he is aware that when the hospital authorities were urged to cut staff it was stipulated that this must not be done by throwing domestic work on to the nurses. I think the noble Lord would like to know that. Then he spoke about the restriction of the engagement of nurses. The reason for that, I am informed, is that the Minister felt that the problem was becoming to a considerable extent one of distribution of nurses. Some places were considerably better off than others, though still short; and in order that nurses might be employed to the best advantage he brought in the restriction order.
I hope I have done something to indicate the position. It is a position which is improving. It is a position in connection with which, quite clearly, the Ministry of Health and the Minister of Health—and I make the distinction because I want to cover a wider period than the present Minister's occupation of office—have been seriously concerned, I think with some success, in trying to recruit a large number of nurses to the profession. I believe it is inevitable that there will be a considerable wastage in this profession. I gather that one of your Lordships felt it was regrettable that there was so much wastage. But if the wastage is due to marriage then it is not any use any of your Lordships regretting it, for I am certain that it will continue and, probably, to the great advantage of the nation.
What the nurses require is recognition. We are all the children of history. There is no doubt about it that they were underpaid, but that is a matter which has been considerably remedied. There is no doubt that at one time discipline was of a very severe nature. I gather that at the present time over 50 per cent. of the nurses, according to the Nuffield team, are satisfied that the discipline is all right. Over 30 per cent. think that it is not strict enough—they probably belong to the higher age group of those who were investigated. Some 5 per cent. think that discipline is already much too severe. They will probably join the ranks of the

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wastage as time goes on. In the meantime, I am certain that the nursing profession will be gratified at the step which the noble Lord, Lord Crook, has taken in bringing this Motion before the House, and at the expressions of high esteem which have fallen from the lips of all speakers in referring to this profession. Doctors and surgeons have the knowledge and the skill that enables them to save human life, but it is the nurses who make the process of recovery endurable.
5.45 p.m.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, may I first express my gratitude to the three noble Lords of the medical profession who have spoken on this Motion, and also thank the noble Lord who has just replied for Her Majesty's Government. Since he has referred to it, perhaps it will not be wrong for me to say how glad we have been to notice the great interest in this debate which the Minister has shown in the course of the afternoon. Before I withdraw my Motion, I should like to say that I am sure we are all conscious of the fact that there are many good sides to this matter. A most significant fact, when I came to speak, was that I did not have occasion to mention complaints about discipline. Complaints of this nature formed quite a part of what I had to say in 1948. All that have heard in this connection has impressed me as to the easing which has taken place in the hospitals of the country of what in my view, and in the view of many others, including many nurses, was the quite intolerable discipline imposed in earlier years. I find that very few people make complaints on that score to-day. Probably if they do, they are people who have already become part of the wastage and are trying to explain why they are no longer part of the Health Service.
May I also say how conscious I am that our great Health Service in this country
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has undergone a huge expansion. I know that we started this century with only about 68,000 people, all told, in the nursing profession, and I believe the total manpower now exceeds 200,000. There. fore, when we talk about the grave shortage of nurses it is not a shortage by comparison with the past, but a shortage only compared with what is required to meet the needs of what we regard as the expanding services to which the nation has a right to look forward and which are, in fact, being planned. May I thank the noble Lord for the correct figures which he gave me, arid say that I appreciate the difference between the two sets of figures in the two different places. It was good to have brought to our attention the fact that although there is a shortage of 28,000 beds by reason of the shortage of nurses, the figure four years ago was about twice that number. If we go on improving only at that same pace in the next four years, we shall wipe out that shortage which all of us so much deplored when we last discussed the subject.
The noble Lord told us that we must expect wastage to continue because of marriage. He has had personal experience, as I have, of moving among nurses, and no doubt he realises what good choices are made by so many men who take their spouses from the nursing profession. It would be wrong for me to withdraw a Motion which contains the words "To call attention to the Hospital Nursing Services" without paying my own tribute, and a tribute on behalf of noble Lords, not only on these Benches but throughout the House, to the medical men and nurses who make up this great, untiring and unselfish profession, to which both Lord Woolton and I, and indeed all of us, owe so much. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

WEST BRIDGFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
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