Sitting of 5 May 1953

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION BILL
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BRITISH ARMY

    Air Trooping, Canal Zone
    Dr. Kingasked the Secretary of State for War why there is delay in releasing Regular and National Service men, who have completed their term of service from the Canal Zone.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head): Air trooping is running up to schedule, and delay should be quite exceptional. I shall be glad to look into any particular case the hon. Member has in mind.
    Dr. King: May I thank the Minister for his sympathetic reply? Is he aware that one of my constituents has written stating that in the Canal Zone National Service men are still being kept even to the day when they are due to be demobbed in this country, and that Regular Service men are being kept sometimes three or four months later than their demobilisation date? Will he look into the general question?
    Mr. Head: Yes. If the hon. Gentleman will send me particulars I will certainly look into them. At the moment the complaint is very much a generalisation. My information and my knowledge of the Middle East show that trooping by aircraft is running punctually at the present time.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it not within the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman
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    that men are being delayed two or three months? Surely that information must be conveyed to him from time to time?
    Mr. Head: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right that some time ago, owing to operational necessity, aircraft were diverted, and then there was delay. Now aircraft trooping is running up to schedule, and I know of no delay which is caused by absence of aircraft from air trooping at the present time.

    Forces Message Service, Malaya
    Mr. Deedesasked the Secretary of State for War what decision he has reached on extending expeditionary forces message telegram facilities, now available in Korea, to other theatres in which British Forces are serving, in particular, to Malaya.
    Mr. Head: Arrangements have been made for the Expeditionary Forces Message Service to be reintroduced on 18th May between the United Kingdom and Malaya. The cost of a message of three phrases and the address will be 3s. 6d. in either direction.

    Personal Case
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for War what information he has of the circumstances under which Sergeant G. F. Fill of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers was killed in an ambush in Egypt on 27th April.
    Mr. Head: On 27th April Sergeant Fill was a member of a patrol in a Land-Rover which was covering the road between Tel el Kebir and Ismailia. At about noon the patrol was attacked by at least five armed Egyptian civilians travelling in two cars. I deeply regret that, as a result of this attack, Sergeant Fill was killed.
    Mr. Jeger: May I take it that the Minister is in close touch with the Egyptian authorities over this incident? Is he taking any steps to claim compensation on behalf of the family of Sergeant Fill?
    Mr. Head: Her Majesty's Ambassador has taken the matter up in Cairo. I would not like to go further than that, as the matter is at the moment under discussion.

    Trooping the Colour (Television Facilities)
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for War what requests he has received from the British Broadcasting Corporation for facilities for the televising of the Trooping the Colour in London and other military spectacles; and what facilities he is granting.
    Mr. Head: Full facilities for televising Trooping the Colour are being provided for the Corporation and I am always ready to help over other Army ceremonies.
    Captain Duncan: Are the War Office receiving any financial consideration for granting these facilities? If so, will regimental funds be helped by transferring some of the money to them?
    Mr. Head: No, Sir. We are not receiving any financial consideration.

    Commercial Advertising (Pictures of Regiments)
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the use, both in the Press and on hoardings, of pictures of famous regiments for the purpose of advertising goods for sale; and what contributions are made to regimental funds for such pictures.
    Mr. Head: I welcome the use of pictures of famous regiments in commercial advertisements, provided that the details are accurate. As far as I know no contributions are made to regimental funds.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: Will my right hon. Friend not consider inviting contributions to regimental funds, as advertisers would no doubt be only too happy to make such contributions?
    Mr. Head: If we asked for that, it might act as a deterrent. These advertisements are a very useful form of free publicity for the Army.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Scottish whisky firms who exploit these regiments would be quite prepared to give a substantial sum out of their substantial profits if they were only asked for it?
    Mr. Head: I am not aware of that. Whisky firms exploit a lot of things, including dogs, and it would not be fair to expect a bonus from everybody who uses a soldier in an advertisement.
    Mr. G. Jeger: Every time a soldier is used for advertising a particular product does the Minister get a sample in order to satisfy himself of its quality?
    Mr. Head: That would be highly irregular.

    Infantry Boys' Battalion (Conscientious Objectors)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for War why a similar provision for registrants for National Service to claim conscientious objection to military service does not also operate in respect of any young man reaching the age of 18 years, who originally enlisted in boys' battalions at the age of 15 years; and, approximately, how many are now serving in the battalions.
    Mr. Head: The point raised in the first part of this Question was given long consideration by the Select Committee on the Army Act and Air Force Act and it is dealt with in paragraph 6 of their Second Report. The Committee recommended that a Member of the Army Council or the Air Council should deal administratively with any case that might arise. This in fact is already being done. There are at present 4,666 boys in the Regular Army, of whom 324 are in the Infantry Boys' Battalion.
    Mr. Sorensen: I am aware of that, but does it not deprive citizens of this country of certain rights? In view of the fact that these lads join at a very early age and the number of conscientious objectors will be very small, is it not an unwise departure from a principle generally applicable to all young men of the country?
    Mr. Head: No such case has so far arisen in respect of young boys. On the question of legislation, the Select Committee found that the proposed clauses were of great complexity. They considered the matter carefully and I think that any case that arises will be dealt with, fairly and generously, administratively within the Department concerned.

    Brigade of Gurkhas
    Mr. Finlayasked the Secretary of State for War the number of battalions now raised for the Brigade of Gurkhas; and the locations thereof.
    Mr. Head: The Brigade of Gurkhas consists of eight infantry battalions all of which are employed in Far East Land Forces.
    Colonel Gomme-Doncan: Can my right hon. Friend say whether these eight battalions are up to strength and if there is any difficulty about further recruitment?
    Mr. Head: The question of recruitment has been a matter for negotiation and discussion between Her Majesty's Government and the authorities concerned. I should not like to go further than that at the present time.

    Deceased Soldiers, Egypt
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for War what arrangements exist with the Egyptian Government regarding the repatriation of the bodies of British soldiers who die in Egypt.
    Mr. Head: Repatriation of the bodies of those who have died in Egypt since 1948 is allowed, but the Egyptian Health regulations do not permit movement to take place within 12 months of burial.
    Mr. Jeger: Is there any reason why that should be so? One could quite understand that they should not allow dead bodies to be brought into the country in case they brought with them a contagious disease. Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that not to allow the bodies of our own men, caught in an ambush by Egyptians, to be repatriated to Britain is something about which we should protest and take real action? Is it at all possible to obtain permission either for the bodies to be returned to Britain or for the bodies to be cremated and the ashes returned to relatives here?
    Mr. Head: This is a regulation that has been in being for some considerable time, and any bodies that have been repatriated previously have been repatriated within this regulation, that is after an interval of one year. I will certainly find out about the possibilities of cremation and will write to the hon. Member about it.

    Dr. Speidel (Visit To U.K.)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for War what expense he has incurred in connection with the visit of Doctor Speidel to military establishments in Britain.
    Mr. Head: £4 14s. 7d.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that Dr. Speidel was stated by the Prime Minister to be spending a fortnight in this country. Does that £4 14s. 7d. just cover drinks? What is Dr. Speidel going to do at the Royal Aircraft Factory, Farn-borough? Will he be allowed to take photographs? How far have the Government agreed to the re-creation of a German tactical force and the reappearance of the Luftwaffe?
    Mr. Head: With regard to Dr. Speidel's fortnight's stay, he is staying in London at his own Government's expense. Travel to and from this country is also paid for by his own Government. As to photography at Faraborough, that question should be addressed to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Air.

    Coronation Month Recruits (Crown Pieces)
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Secretary of State for War what special recruiting measures he is contemplating to mark the occasion of Her Majesty's Coronation.
    Mr. Head: I am arranging, with the help of the banks, that every recruit, man, woman or boy, who enlists on a normal Regular Army engagement at a recruiting office during the month of June this year shall receive, as part of his or her first day's pay and allowances, one of the new Crown pieces.

  HOME GUARD

    43rd County of London Battalion (Uniforms)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Secretary of State for War to make a further statement about the supply of uniforms to the 43rd County of London Battalion of the Home Guard; and when the second-hand shirts, which should not have been issued, were withdrawn and replaced.
    Mr. Head: In my reply to a Question about this unit last Tuesday I informed the hon. and gallant Member that 69 men of this unit had been completely fitted out. This was based on inquiry made at short notice and I now find that, although the uniforms were with the unit, they had not then been issued. I apologise to the hon. and gallant Member for having misled him. The shirts were returned by the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Association direct to Ordnance and were replaced on 18th April.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Whilst thanking the right hon. Gentleman for correcting at least one of the major inaccuracies in his reply last week, may I ask if he will try to deal with the fact that the number of jackets issued to this unit always exceeds the number of trousers, which is liable to create an embarrassing situation? Is he aware that they should be equal in number, and will he further consider the general issue of new shirts, because there is no reason why worn, second-hand shirts should be issued to these rather limited number of public-spirited men who volunteer for the Home Guard?
    Mr. Head: I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Member for his particular interest in this unit. At the moment they are short of an adjutant quarter-master; perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will offer to fill the post.

    Nationalised Industries
    Commander Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for War what action has been taken to encourage employees in nationalised industries to join the Home Guard.
    Mr. Head: Industries, including the nationalised industries, are being invited to raise Home Guard sub-units for the defence of industrial installations of operational importance. The National Joint Advisory Council, with whom I discussed the matter, have agreed to this proposal and advised their constituent members: and I am grateful for their co-operative attitude.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Development Areas
    Mr. Greyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has completed his survey of the development areas; and if he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Henry Strauss): I cannot yet add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on 16th December last.
    Mr. Grey: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the great concern that was caused in the development areas as a result of the original statement? How long will it be before such a statement will be issued?
    Mr. Strauss: I think that the hon. Member has in mind the survey that must take place before any possible removal from the Schedule of the Act is considered. I think that he will agree that this is a difficult and complicated question which should not be prematurely decided. I would remind him that if there appears to be a case for the removal of an area from the Schedule, consultation would have to follow with all the authorities concerned.
    Mr. Grey: For how long must consultation take place before any statement is issued?
    Mr. Strauss: I think that the hon. Member may have misunderstood me. I cannot tell how long these investigations will take but, if after investigation it should be decided that there was some case for the removal of an area from the Schedule, then consultation would take place.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman say whether there are any actual investigations going on at the present time or whether the whole thing has been dropped for the time being?
    Mr. Strauss: Certain inquiries are going on.

    Merchandise Marks Act (Prosecutions)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade how many prosecutions his Department has undertaken since August, 1938, under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887, in respect of false trade descriptions as to material content of consumer goods, including the advertising of such goods to which false trade descriptions had been applied.
    Mr. H. Strauss: Six, Sir.
    Miss Burton: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that this very low number will have an important bearing on discussion of the Merchandise Marks Bill and that the trade associations are worried at the attitude of the Government towards prosecution under this head?
    Mr.Strauss: I do not think so. There has been no change in policy under Her Majesty's present administration. The same policy has been adopted over a long period and some guidance as to policy is indeed laid down in the statutes. I would remind the hon. Lady that the fact that only this number of prosecutions has been conducted by the Board of Trade does not mean that a much greater number of prosecutions has not taken place.
    Mr. Nabarro: Will my hon. and learned Friend resist all blandishments from "meddlesome matties," wherever they be, to interfere with the normal process of British industry and commerce?
    Mr. Swingler: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us what has happened to the Merchandise Marks Bill?
    Mr. Strauss: That is an entirely different question. It was passed in another place and it is due to be introduced in this House.

    Film Industry (Discussions)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade for how long he is prepared to await the results of discussions in the film industry on the future of the Eady levy; and whether, if these discussions fail to produce voluntary agreement, he proposes to introduce legislation in this session.
    Mr. H. Strauss: As my right hon. Friend said in his reply to the hon. Member on 16th April, the industry must have a reasonable period for discussion; and to set a time limit at this stage would not help. If a statutory scheme becomes necessary a Bill will be introduced in good time before the present voluntary scheme comes to an end.
    Mr. Swingler: What does the Parliamentary Secretary regard as a reasonable time? The trade has already had nine months. Does it mean that they have another nine months, or a year? How long will it go on? Is the Parliamentary
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    Secretary aware that if he allows the present scheme to expire in August, 1954, it means that any assistance to film production ceases 12 months before that happens?
    Mr. Strauss: It is because of the importance of giving the industry adequate notice that my right hon. Friend made his statement in answer to a Question by the hon. Member for Nottingham, North-West (Mr. O'Brien). That statement served a purpose. It would not serve any useful purpose to set a time limit now, which would merely interfere with the negotiations which are taking place.
    Mr. Swingler: That statement was made two months ago.

    Bananas
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will amend the present import arrangements and put bananas on open general licence.
    The Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. H. R. Mackeson): Imports of bananas from the sterling area were put on open general licence at the beginning of this year. The arrangements for licensing imports of bananas from non-sterling sources were announced in March. We cannot agree at the present time to issue an open general licence for such imports.
    Miss Burton: Is the Secretary for Overseas Trade aware that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction in the trade about this system of importing bananas. Is he also aware that all other specific licences of goods not on open general licence have been issued on the basis of past trading figures? Why is that not the case with bananas?
    Mr. Mackeson: We have informed the trade organisations that if they have substantial cases of hardship to put forward we shall give them sympathetic consideration.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Is my hon. Friend aware that Brazil will gladly take British motor cars and other equipment, provided we take bananas? Will my hon. Friend look into the matter?
    Mr. Mackeson: Yes, Sir. We hope to take substantial quantities of non-sterling bananas, but for balance of payments reasons we cannot at present put them on open general licence.
    Mr. Mellish: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether he has had any complaints from the barrow boys of Kidderminster?

    South Wales Ports (Traffic)
    Mr. Gowerasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he will take to assist the development of trade traffic through the South Wales ports.
    Mr. Mackeson: It is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to promote the expansion of our external trade. I could not, however, take steps to direct trade to particular ports.
    Mr. Gower: Does not the Minister agree that these ports—particularly Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Barry— were vital assets in time of war? Does he appreciate that their very existence is threatened by the conditions prevailing since the war, particularly the decline in coal exports? Will he therefore use every possible means to persuade trade and industry to use these ports, especially as they have enjoyed excellent labour relations during recent years?
    Mr. Mackeson: My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Welsh Affairs made an announcement about West South Wales recently. The trouble is caused by the French balance of payments difficulties. The French Government hope to be able to get their imports of coal from this country back to the normal level before long.

    Censuses of Production (Committee)
    Mr. M. Lindsayasked the President of the Board of Trade what new steps he is taking to reduce the requirements of the Census of Production in order to secure economy of effort both in industry and in his Department.
    Mr. H. Strauss: My right hon. Friend has appointed a committee, including representatives of both sides of industry, to advise him about future policy in regard to the taking of censuses of production and distribution and to make recommendations. I am glad to say that Mr. W. R. Verdon Smith has agreed to be Chairman of this Committee, which will hold its first meeting in the near future. With permission, I will circulate the full membership of the Committee in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Lindsay: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the Census as it is at present is a very real burden upon industry, particularly upon the small firms, and therefore any work of this Committee which is likely to result in any diminution in the requirements of the Census will be greatly welcomed?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman also bear in mind that the information available to the American Government is far greater than that available to our own in these industrial matters? Will he make sure that, as a result of this Committee, we do not cut down still further the information available?
    Mr. Strauss: I think the two supplementary questions illustrate what I hope is the universal view of the House—first, that adequate statistical information is very important and, secondly, that it should be secured with a minimum of interference and with economy of effort on the part of both industry and the Board of Trade.
    The following have been appointed members of the Committee:

    W. R. Verdon Smith, Esq., J.P. (Chairman),

    J. A. Birch, Esq., F.C.I.S.,

    Professor C. F. Carter,

    E. H. Davison, Esq.,

    W. L. Heywood, Esq., O.B.E.,

    R. B. E. Jackson, Esq.,

    C. F. Merriam, Esq., M.C..

    W. I. Pugh, Esq.,

    W. Quincey, Esq.,

    R. M. Shone, Esq., C.B.E.,

    F. J. Stratton, Esq., C.B.E.,

    N. C. Turner, Esq., F.I.A.,

    R. Vines, Esq.,

    B. Yarney, Esq.

    Cuban Cigars
    Mr. Royleasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has yet considered the quota for Cuban cigars to replace the agreement expiring at the end of 1953.
    Mr. Mackeson: No, Sir.
    Mr. Royle: The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the concern in the minds of the Jamaican manufacturers. Will he give an assurance that their point of view will be considered when this agreement is in course of consideration? Can he say how soon consideration will be given to it?
    Mr. Mackeson: This agreement runs for another eight months. That is why we have not yet considered it. The views of the Jamaicans will most certainly be taken into consideration.

    United States Hosiery Machines (Licences)
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) how many companies, firms or individuals were granted licences for imports of fully-fashioned hosiery machinery from the United States of America during the six months ended 24th April, which amounted in value to £42,000; and if he will state the value of the licences granted to Messrs. Howard Ford Limited;
    (2) why the application made on 17th April by John Skelton & Son Limited, of Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire, for a licence to import fully-fashioned hosiery machines from the United States of America was rejected on the grounds that licences were not issued at present to permit the import of these machines from the United States of America.
    Mr. Mackeson: No licences are at present being issued for the import of fully-fashioned hosiery machinery from the United States except in special circumstances. The only licence issued in the six months ended 24th April, 1953, was one to a value of £42,000. This licence allowed the import of reconditioned machinery which was obtainable on attractive terms by a firm with an excellent record of export trade in nylon stockings. It was not in fact issued to Howard Ford Limited.
    Sir D. Robertson: Is it not unfortunate that when answering my Question on this matter last week the hon. Gentleman gave that figure as the total imports for the whole industry, without any indication that an amazing preference was given to one firm at a time when no other firms in the industry can get licences?
    Mr. Mackeson: I do not agree at all with my hon. Friend. We let this particular item in because of the export performance of the firm concerned. This was machinery which could not be made in this country. If we can make machinery here we certainly do not want to spend dollars on importing it, but if we do import we want to make quite certain that the machinery will assist our exports.
    Sir D. Robertson: Is it not a fact that the particular firm named in this Question —which the hon. Member extracted from me with some reluctance as a result of his lack of knowledge last week—is being financed by the Government to build British machines to undertake this work? Why is it that they are being given this amazing preference to buy competitive machines from America?
    Mr. Mackeson: Neither of the firms referred to in these Questions was given these licences. The firm concerned is an entirely different one.
    Mr. Osborne: May I ask my hon. Friend two questions? First, are any of these fully-fashioned hosiery machines being made in this country and, second, how much public money has been put into the production of this type of machinery here, and with what retsult?
    Mr. Mackeson: I must see that question in writing.

    Exports to China
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the President of the Board of Trade what representations have been made to Her Majesty's Government by the United States Government on the recently announced increase in trade between the United Kingdom and China; and what reply has been made.
    Mr. Mackeson: No such representations have been made.
    Mr. Hamilton: Has the Minister seen some of the reports in the Press, only this morning, that the investigating committee under the chairmanship of Senator McCarthy is asking the British representatives whether the sodium content of the recently announced increased exports to China will be of value in munitions, and that our representatives have given the reply that there was no possibility of it being used in that way?
    Mr. Mackeson: I have answered the Question on the Order Paper. I do not think that the supplementary question arises from it, but if the hon. Member will put down a Question I shall see if I can answer it.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that the investigating committee under Senator McCarthy have made very scathing comments about this recently

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    announced increase? Will he undertake to give an equally scathing reply to this very stupid man?
    Mr. Mackeson: I shall give no such undertaking at all on the lines of that supplementary question.

  CIVIL SERVICE

    Retirement Age
    Mr. Vaughan-Morganasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made in raising the age of retirement in the Civil Service and whether, with a view to encouraging similar action in public and private industry and commerce, he will publish the relevant facts in a White Paper.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): The instructions issued to all Government Departments early last year to employ all fit and willing officers of all grades for as long as practicable are now in operation. The best methods of encouraging similar action elsewhere are among the matters being considered by the National Advisory Committee on the Employment of Older Men and Women which my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour has set up for this purpose.

    Civil Servants (Private Affairs)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how far, in deciding the suitability of civil servants to discharge their duties, he takes into account adverse information as to their private and domestic affairs.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the general practice in respect of letters addressed to any Government Department asking for information or conveying complaints concerning the private affairs of civil servants.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: This is a matter for Departmental discretion, and it is not possible to give a reply in general terms since circumstances will vary from case to case. I can, however, say that it is not the normal practice of Departments to give information about the private affairs of civil servants.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to see that
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    Civil Service careers are not ruined by threats to disclose purely domestic affairs to Departmental chiefs? In this connection, is he aware that a threatening letter from the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) that was sent to a Treasury official was the subject of severe judicial criticism in the Divorce Court last Thursday? Is it in the public interest that any Member of Parliament should be able to persecute any civil servant in this odious and meddlesome way?
    Mr. Butler: I do not underestimate the anxiety that has been created, but I have the greatest difficulty in controlling Government Departments, and I should find it quite impossible to control hon. Members.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not the right hon. Gentleman personally deprecate this attempt to investigate private affairs of individuals who are serving our country? Therefore, will he not at least give some indication to the various Departments that inquiries of this nature are reprehensible?
    Mr. Butler: The answer to that is quite clear. In so far as Government Departments are concerned I should like to give the assurance I did in my original answer, that it is not the normal practice of Departments to give information about the private affairs of civil servants, and in so far as my influence goes, which, I hope, is not too small, I shall do my best to see that the hon. Member's apprehensions are fully understood in this matter.
    Air Commodore Harvey: On a point of order. The matter now being discussed affects the action of an hon. Member of this House. Should it not be addressed to you, Mr. Speaker, rather than to a Minister of the Crown?
    Mr. Speaker: In general, the proper course when one is attacking another hon. Member is to submit a Motion to me on the subject. It is rather awkward to have these things sprung at short notice.
    Mr. Sorensen: I made no implication against any hon. Member of the House in the Question I put down.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Further to that point of order. I informed the hon. Member for Orpington of my intention to raise this matter.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Burma (Debt)
    Mr. T. Reidasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Government of Burma has now arranged settlement of its debt to Britain of about £27 million.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No, Sir.
    Mr. Reid: Do the Government of Burma admit the validity of this debt, and is the reason why they do not repay it because of financial difficulties in Burma?
    Mr. Butler: I should not like to comment on the particular difficulties of the Burma Government. Conversations have taken place with the Burma Government. We are aware of the importance of the hon. Member's Question, and we are still awaiting an answer from the Burma Government.

    Tobacco Tokens
    Mrs. Fordasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of tobacco vouchers at present issued to old age pensioners per week.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: About 2,200,000 old age pensioners at present receive tobacco tokens, one for each week.
    Mrs. Ford: In view of the fact that there are some four-and-a-half million old age pensioners, does not my right hon. Friend think that this system of tobacco vouchers is unfair to non-smokers and open to misuse?
    Mr. Butler: I should not like to refer to misuse in the question of smoking. I would say, however, that if there were any further concession, I calculate that something to compensate might well cost as much as £16 million a year, which would be a very heavy liability at present.
    Mr. Shunner: Is it not possible to find some means of giving tobacco vouchers to those pensioners who are not receiving the national old age pension? Many of them are living at a very low standard and are placed in an unfavourable position.
    Mr. Butler: I am aware of the difficulties, but the trouble is that when an attempt is made, as has been made in the
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    past, to help those particular old age pensioners, it is difficult to extend it without getting into further difficulties.

    Ex-Tramway Employees (Pensions)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what approaches have been made to him by the London Transport Executive to have included within the scope of the Pensions Increase Acts the former tramway employees of the West Ham, Croydon, Walthamstow and London County Council Tramway Corporations; and what was the nature of his reply.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: No such approach has been made.
    Mr. Lewis: Does the Chancellor not agree that it is rather unfair that a group of old people such as these, who have given good service, should be deprived of the benefits of the Pensions Increase Acts which are received by their colleagues, with whom they formerly worked? Is it not unfair that they should be deprived of the benefits because of an apparent reluctance on the part of the London Transport Executive to make an application to his Department? Will the Chancellor make an approach to the London Transport Executive to see whether he can initiate some discussions?
    Mr. Butler: The difficulty is that under the Acts to which the hon. Member refers the Treasury Regulations can only empower pension authorities to pay pension increases and cannot force them to do so. I do not think that the present Government, any more than their predecessors, would feel it right to use force in these circumstances.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the right hon. Gentle-aware that a few of these people, who were compulsorily transferred some years ago, cannot get the benefits of the Pensions Increase Acts, whereas their colleagues, who have remained in the council's service, are receiving pensions increases? Does he not think that at least he could ask the London Transport Executive to make an approach to his Department for the purpose of bringing them within the scope of these Acts? Could he not suggest that?
    Mr. Butler: Our position is that we would await an approach. That is why

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    I said, in my original answer, that no such approach had been made. If the answer to this Question has any such results, it may have the required effect. Perhaps the hon. Member might himself have some effect.

    Linen Articles (Tax)
    Captain Orrasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give an approximate estimate of the loss in revenue in a full year consequent upon giving equity to the linen trade by raising the D level for all Class C materials to 50 per cent. higher than that for Class B materials.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: If my hon. and gallant Friend is thinking of a change of the D level for linen articles including clothing, the cost would not exceed £500,000. But such a change would have consequences elsewhere, the effect of which I cannot estimate even approximately.

    Purchase Tax (Valuation) Committee
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Report of the Purchase Tax (Valuation) Committee, of which Mr. Frederick Grant, Q.C., is chairman, is expected to be published.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: This Report is being printed and published very shortly.
    Mr. Fletcher: Could the Minister say whether the Government propose to accept the recommendations of the Report and whether legislation will be required?
    Mr. Butler: This Government always follow the very enlightened procedure of first publishing a report, then obtaining the public reaction of democracy to the report, and then deciding on the action to be taken.

    Food Subsidies
    Mr. Beswickasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in making his calculations regarding total expenditure in the year 1952–53, what was the figure he allowed as the total expenditure on food subsidies during that period.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The revised Estimate for the Ministry of Food for 1952–53 assumed £309 million as the amount
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    of the food subsidies. Adjustments in the timing of the retail price increases are largely responsible for the difference between this latter estimate and the outturn.
    Mr. Beswick: Is the Chancellor aware that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Food has now been good enough to give me the simple and straightforward answer, which said that last year he spent £332 million on food subsidies? As the Chancellor plans to spend only £220 million this year, does not that show that he is saving £120 million this year on food subsidies?
    Mr. Butler: The strange part about it is that I have exactly the same figure in my portfolios as that which the Minister of Food gave to the hon. Member, which is correct. The difficulty in which the hon. Member finds himself is this: he will remember that during last year we had to go down from a very much higher figure for food subsidies to the figure which I promised the House and the public, namely £250 million. We came down in due course to that figure. As I told the hon. Gentleman in a previous reply, the public benefited by the fact that the increases in the price of food were more dilatory than we had at first intended. There is no mystery about this whatever. The reduction this year is due to the new policy concerning cereals and eggs.
    Mr. Beswick: I am in no difficulty at all. The difficulty is experienced by the Chancellor in explaining to the public that his tax concessions have been financed wholly out of savings from food subsidies.
    Mr. Gaitskell: May we take it that the price increases which may still be expected will be limited to the £30 million, namely the difference between £250 million and £220 million?
    Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman can accept that the position is that which has already been stated—namely, that there were certain estimates and there was a certain out-turn, and certain figures were given by me in my Budget statement; and, as far as we can see, that remains the position.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am asking whether from now onwards we may expect price increases amounting to £30 million because of the difference between the

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    present reduced subsidy of £250 million and the future reduced subsidy of £220 million?
    Mr. Butler: That would be misleading because the policy of freeing cereals and eggs has already been adopted and does not look into the future. The figure I have given for the coming year is £220 million, or £221 million; and the round figure is £220 million.

    Sterling Convertibility
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to an official announcement by the Prime Minister of New Zealand that the recent Commonwealth Conference agreed to ask the United States of America virtually to guarantee sterling, so that partial convertibility would follow; and whether he has any statement to make.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Yes, Sir. I have seen reports of a statement by the Prime Minister of New Zealand. I have nothing to add to what I told the House on 17th March, namely, that there are essential pre-requisites to a convertibility operation—the adoption by all concerned of adequate internal and good creditor policies and the assurance of sufficient support.
    Mr. Jay: Is it not very unsatisfactory that in a matter of this importance we should still have to rely for our knowledge of Government policy on Press reports from the other end of the world? Can the Chancellor at least confirm or deny the report that the American authorities have now reported unfavourably on his proposals?
    Mr. Butler: I do not think anything is quite as simple as the right hon. Gentleman feels. The American authorities are giving close attention to all that we put before them. In certain respects there have been difficulties and obstacles, which have already been mentioned by Her Majesty's Ministers before the House. In other respects I think there is likely to be progress, but I do not think the situation is as simple as the right hon. Gentleman imagines. Secondly, if he wishes to take Her Majesty's Government's
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    policy he should address himself to Her Majesty's Government's Ministers.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Will the Chancellor not tell us precisely what this plan for partial convertibility was? Is it not most unsatisfactory that we should only hear bits and pieces of it from other Commonwealth Ministers?
    Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman might find it difficult to understand, but I made a statement on 17th March which exactly represents our attitude towards the possibility of convertibility—namely, that first of all this country and other countries concerned have to adopt a right internal policy; secondly, that certain countries, including the United States, should adopt good creditor policies which improve the opportunity of trading with them; and thirdly, if there is to be such an operation, there should be adequate support. Not all of those conditions have yet been fulfilled.
    Mr. Gaitskell: They are too vague.
    Mr. Jay: The right hon. Gentleman said there was some progress. Could he at least enlighten us by telling us what that progress is?
    Mr. Butler: The progress is that the situation internally of the United Kingdom economy is very much improved on the situation when right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite were in charge. Inflation has been conquered and the general level of public expenditure has been tackled. Confidence in sterling and the internal policy is very much greater.

    ATMOSPHERIC POLLUTION
    Dr. Jegerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what gaseous elements in fog, besides sulphur dioxide, for example, nitric oxide, are analysed as a matter of routine in London.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Sulphur gases are measured at a number of London stations as a matter of routine; other gaseous elements are, in comparison, very small, and to measure them would be difficult and expensive.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Derating Act
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what reduction in the current county borough of West Ham rates it is estimated would follow a complete repeal of the Derating Act.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what reduction in the current Dagenham rates it is estimated would follow a complete repeal of the Derating Act.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: It would be quite impossible to make estimates of this kind in respect of particular local areas. In any event, I have no figures of what would be the effect of agricultural land ceasing to be derated. Nor could I estimate the effect on the system of equalisation grants.
    Mr. Lewis: In view of the fact that there is no agricultural land in West Ham, will the right hon. Gentleman try to get these figures, because I believe that if he makes an investigation he will find it is possible? If I put another Question down so far as West Ham is concerned, will he try to answer it, because I can assure him there is no agricultural land there?
    Mr. Macmillan: I was answering two Questions together, and one of them did include agricultural land. I still say it is quite impossible to get these figures accurately, nor could I estimate the effect on the Equalisation Grant Department, but I will do my best to answer another Question if the hon. Gentleman puts it down.
    Mr. Lewis: If the right hon. Gentleman made application to the borough treasurer surely it would be possible for him, in conjunction with the Treasury and the local authority, to get the information?

    Cemetery, Eastville
    Mr. Coldrickasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware that the Ridgeway Park Cemetery, Eastville, Bristol, which was the property of a limited company, now dissolved, is in a mouldering condition with no one responsible for its upkeep; and, in view
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    of the distress caused to those with relatives buried there, what action he is taking to deal with the problem.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: This cemetery presents a difficult and intriguing problem. I am considering how it may be resolved. If the hon. Gentleman would get into touch with me I would be glad to explain to him, so far as I can, the somewhat macabre situation.
    Mr. Coldrick: While thanking the Minister for that reply—and I shall be glad to contact him on this "mouldering" question—may I ask him if he agrees that it is wrong for a limited company to pass on its liabilities as a burden to the local community after it has made a profit out of the cemetery?
    Mr. Macmillan: This is a very extraordinary case. This cemetery did belong to a limited company, which is now dissolved. It then vested in the Crown under the Companies Act, 1948, as bona vacantia, but the Crown then disclaimed title, and the cemetery, therefore, belongs to nobody and nobody is responsible for its maintenance. It is a somewhat obscure problem which I am now trying to resolve.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the continuous neglect of this cemetery is bound to have a detrimental effect on the health of the people in the neighbourhood? Would he take it up with the Minister of Health to see what can be done?
    Mr. Macmillan: I should like to take possession of it, and would do all I could, but it is a very curious and almost unique case. We are doing all we can.

  HOUSING

    Sites, Newcastle-tinder-Lyme
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is now able to announce a decision on future housing sites in Newcastle-under-Lyme so as to avert a breakdown in the house-building programme.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I cannot yet add anything to the reply which was given to the hon. Member on 28th April.
    Mr. Swingler: Does the Minister realise the extreme urgency of the decision? Does he appreciate that every week lost now in the preparation of housing sites means an inevitable drop in the housing programme of Newcastle-under-Lyme next year, because we simply have no sites, and have no housing sites for 1954 at all, and unless the Minister will give his approval to take over the sites for which Newcastle-under-Lyme has made application it is inevitable that the Newcastle-under-Lyme Council's plan to build more houses next year, because of the shortage of land, will be unable to be fulfilled?
    Mr. Macmillan: Of course I appreciate this. I think the hon. Gentleman knows that I have a certain bias towards the building of houses, but I also have carefully to consider the effect of taking agricultural land, and I try to get all these matters settled with the Minister of Agriculture. It is very important that this procedure of give and take and joint settlement should continue.

    Subsidies (Agricultural Workers)
    Colonel J. H. Harrisonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware that many rural district councils are using the agricultural works rent subsidy for purposes other than the benefit of tenants who are agricultural workers; and if he will take steps to prevent such misuses of the subsidy.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: The agricultural subsidy referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend is intended for small groups of houses in difficult and isolated sites. It is intended to prevent an undue rise in the rent owing to these special difficulties. I am sending him a copy of a circular in which these subsidy provisions are explained. If the circular does not meet the point he has in mind perhaps he will let me have particulars.
    Colonel Harrison: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a strong feeling in East Anglia that the amount of subsidy for agricultural workers is rather diminishing today and is being spread over other people? They are losing something they previously had.
    Mr. Snow: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one local authority is promulgating this particular policy on the ground
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    that the agricultural statutory wage is now more or less the same as the industrial wage, which is not correct? Will he look into it?
    Mr. Macmillan: I will send a copy of this circular to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps we could have a word about it together.

    SOUTH-WEST AFRICA
    Mr. Youngerasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the prolonged absence of agreement between the Union of South Africa and the Ad Hoc Committee of the United Nations about South-West Africa, he will raise the matter at the forthcoming Prime Ministers' Conference.
    The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): Discussions with the Commonwealth Prime Ministers are, in accordance with well recognised custom, confidential. I am not prepared to commit myself on what particular subject I may or may not discuss with my fellow Commonwealth Prime Ministers during their visit. It is, however, well recognised that at Commonwealth meetings we do not intervene in matters which are primarily the concern of one individual country. Nevertheless, it is not possible to argue that South-West Africa is simply a matter of domestic concern to the Union Government. This Government and their predecessors have accepted an advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice formally recognising that the United Nations have a direct and legitimate concern in the destiny of this former mandated territory. I do not think I want to say anything more upon the subject, and I do not commit myself at all in any way to any discussions which may or may not be raised.
    Mr. Younger: Is the Prime Minister aware that the United Kingdom is not a member of the committee of the United Nations which negotiates this matter, the reason for which one has always presumed was that we thought it more useful to exercise our influence through our Commonwealth connections; and if he is now telling us that he does not feel he can on an occasion like this see any reason for using Commonwealth connections for the purpose, will he consider whether perhaps the United Kingdom

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    ought to be a member of this United Nations committee, as it is a matter of very great importance to the Commonwealth, and as the Commonwealth cannot wash its hands of it?
    The Prime Minister: I will certainly give important consideration to what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Requisitioned House, Cornwall Terrace
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Works when he expects to be able to return 4, Cornwall Terrace, to its owner who is desirous of living in the house.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. David Eccles): This house is one of a block occupied by the Monopolies Commission. It can be released from requisition only when the Commission can be found other offices. This may not be for some little time, and I regret that at present I am unable to give any date.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that that is a very unsatisfactory reply which tells me no more than I knew a few weeks ago? Surely a British subject living in the days of a Conservative Government is entitled to have his home returned to him.
    Mr. Eccles: My hon. and gallant Friend will know that we are steadily de-requisitioning properties, but I can only do it when I can find alternative accommodation for the Government servants who have been in them. The lessee of this particular house was offered another property but did not take it.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that the property offered was a much bigger house and was quite unworkable; and will he look at this again and try to see whether he can give a firm date when the house can be returned?
    Mr. Eccles: I will look at it again, but I cannot promise anything.
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Works how much money was spent on 4, Cornwall Terrace to make it
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    habitable when taken over by his Department, with the exception of main central heating for the building and a through corridor to adjoining houses.
    Mr. Eccles: Four thousand seven huD-dred and thirteen pounds.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Will my right hon. Friend have a real search into the accountancy of the Monopolies Commission and his own Department? My information is that the figure is more like £1,000. Will he look into the figures again?
    As the replies to both this Question and Question No. 46 were most unsatisfactory, I beg to give notice that I shall raise these matters on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

    Scotland Green Site, Tottenham
    Mr. Irvingasked the Minister of Works if he will erect a temporary fence around the Scotland Green site, Tottenham.
    Mr. Eccles: Yes, Sir. It is intended to enclose this site by a hoarding on the High Road frontage and by chain link fencing along the Scotland Green frontage.

    Post Office, Cinderford (Coronation Decorations)
    Mr. Philips Priceasked the Minister of Works why the Post Office building in Cinderford, Gloucestershire, cannot be decorated for the Coronation; and whether he will issue instructions that flags and bunting may be used on this occasion.
    Mr. Eccles: The Government have decided to concentrate their expenditure on decorations on the route of the Coronation Procession where decorations will be seen to the best advantage. Outside London there will be some decoration of the more important Government buildings in connection with Her Majesty's visits, but I regret that the money available will not allow all Government buildings to be decorated even where local schemes of decoration have been arranged, such as at Cinderford.

    Cement and Brick Supplies. Bristol
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Works if he is aware of the shortage of cement and bricks in the Bristol area;

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    what is the cause of this shortage; and what steps he is taking to deal with the position and to provide a continuity of supplies for building purposes.
    Mr. Eccles: I have had inquiries made in the Bristol area, and I can find no evidence that building work is being held up by shortage of either bricks or cement. If the hon. Member will let me know the source of his information, I will have further inquiries made.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that my information is that there is a shortage, and the danger of a shortage in the future; and is he further aware that Bristol has a good housebuilding record up to the present time, and that if this shortage continues this good record will be lost?
    Mr. Eccles: If the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars of sites where materials are in short supply I will look into it.
    Mr. Wilkins: Would the right hon. Gentleman have inquiries made of the distributors in the Bristol area? If he does I am sure he will be advised that the position now is more acute than at any time since the war.
    Mr. Eccles: I have made inquiries in the region and I have so far not got any information that there is an acute shortage. When I have that I will take action.

    EMPLOYMENT, ABERDEEN
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Labour to state to the latest convenient date how many men and women, respectively, in Aberdeen are unemployed; in which trades; and how these figures compare with unemployment in the same trades in Aberdeen during each of the last five years.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I am having the available information extracted and will write to the hon. and learned Member.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that normally his figures do not snow the real state of unemployment, because there are many skilled workers who cannot find employment in their
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    own trades who have to go into other trades and would he include those figures?
    Mr. Watkinson: We are doing our best to give the hon. and learned Gentleman a very detailed set of figures. If he does not receive what he wants in them and gets in touch with me, I will try to get him some more if I can.

  SCOTLAND

    Private Building (Lettings)
    Mr. Wheatleyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the 677 houses built by private builders in Scotland in 1952 for letting were let in pursuance of a contract of service.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. James Stuart): It is known that 142 of these houses were occupied by agricultural workers under contracts of service. No information is available about the letting of the remainder.

    Science and Technological Graduates
    Mr. Woodbumasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many science and technological graduates and persons of approximate standing qualify in Scotland per head of the Scottish population each year; and what is the number of vacancies filled in Scotland for persons with such qualifications.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The number who qualified in Scotland in the academic year 1951–52 is estimated to be one in about 2,500 of the population. It has been found by various committees which, since the war, have inquired into questions of scientific and technical manpower that information of the type asked for in the second part of the Question cannot be obtained with any accuracy.
    Mr. Woodbum: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is generally conceded that there is still a reluctance on the part of Scottish industrialists to make the best use of scientific and technological graduates coming from these institutions; and would he do his best to encourage more use of them in Scotland for the future of Scottish industry?
    Mr. Stuart: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that any such tendency would be very regrettable. I will certainly encourage what he asks.
    Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Scotland, as in England and Wales, there is a considerable danger of a drying up of the supply of these people altogether because the sources are not being fed with enough science teachers?
    Mr. Stuart: It is very important that we should encourage this type of education, and I will certainly do all I can in that direction.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: In view of the fact that Scottish enterprise in production is as fine as anything in the world, is that not a contradiction of the suggestion of the right hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) that they are not making full use of technical and other expert opinion?

    U.K. Trade Delegation, Moscow
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what negotiations are now being conducted for increasing the sale of herring to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Mr. Boothbyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now make an announcement regarding the negotiations for the sale of cured herring to the Soviet Government.
    Mr. J. Stuart: Negotiations are still in progress for the sale of cured herring to the U.S.S.R. and a British delegation is now in Moscow.
    Mr. Hughes: Has this delegation full powers to conclude an agreement which will even increase the export of herring from Scotland?
    Mr. Stuart: The delegation certainly has full powers to effect the best deal it possibly can.
    Mr. M. MacMillan: While wishing every success to these negotiations, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman what commodities are being sought in exchange for the herring that are being sent from this country to Soviet Russia?
    Mr. Stuart: I should not like to commit myself to a definite statement on that subject. I think it is much better that they should have a free hand to negotiate.
    Mr. MacMillan: Could we have an assurance that it will not all be canned crab at 3s. 9d. for a 3 oz. tin and tinned salmon?
    Mr. Stuart: I would rather not restrict the negotiations.

    INDIA (BRIGADE OF GURKHAS)
    Mr. Finlayasked the Undersecretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he is now in a position to make a statement as to the arrangements with the Government of India, enabling the enlistment of recruits to the Brigade of Gurkhas on Indian territory.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. John Foster): Discussions are still in progress with the Governments of India and Nepal and I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Finlay: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that there are many Gurkhas who wish to give service in these excellent regiments under the British Crown; and will he do his very best to ensure that existing arrangements with the Government of India are preserved?
    Mr. Foster: The negotiations will take that into consideration, of course.

    SCOTCH WHISKY (EXPORT PRICE)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Food the export price to the United States of America of a case of Scotch whisky today, compared with the price in 1939.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): I understand that the price recommended by the Scotch Whisky Association to its members for Scotch whisky for export to the United States of America is 86s. 3d. per case of 12 bottles, f.o.b., compared with 45s. in 1939.
    Mr. Stokes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this means that a case of Scotch whisky is being sold today to America at 12 dollars compared with nine dollars pre-war, which is an increase of only 25 cents a bottle for export,

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    whereas a bottle of Scotch whisky in America is sold at 2.72 dollars more than before the war? That being so, does he think it right to allow distillers to have lots of barley and to export their whisky at too low a price?
    Dr. Hill: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that the export of whisky to North America has trebled since before the war with a value which is five times what it was, and that there are strong objections to the Government intervening in the determination of export prices. We should rely on the experts in the industry to determine the price.
    Mr. Stokes: Will the Minister tell the House from where he gets his figures, because the Scotch whisky distillers themselves published as a fact the other day that Scotch whisky sales had only gone up from 4.8 million gallons before the war to about 6.3 million gallons this year. 1 think that he must be mixing up sterling with proof gallons. Whatever else one can do with sterling, one cannot drink it.
    Dr. Hill: The figures come from those who know, the Scotch Whisky Association.
    Mr. Stokes: Will the hon. Gentleman really look into this matter? Is he aware of the general trend of prices and that everything we buy from America costs about three times as much, and most things which we send to America cost the Americans about 2½ times as much in dollars, yet for some extraordinary reason, though the sales of Scotch whisky went up in America last year, we are only getting about 33 per cent. in dollars more than before the war?
    Dr. Hill: I will gladly look into the matter afresh, but the right hon. Gentleman should bear in mind the competitive conditions which obtain in North America.
    Mr. Stokes: The Minister is evading the issue. Scotch whisky distillers themselves admit that while the total whisky sales in America went down last year, Scotch whisky sales went up. There is no excuse whatever for keeping the export price down as it is today.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

IRON AND STEEL DISTRIBUTION (DE-CONTROL)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. NABARRO: TO ask the Minister of Supply how far supplies of steel are now sufficient to meet demand.
The Minister of Supply (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I will, with permission, answer Question No. 61.
So far as tinplate supplies are concerned, I have nothing at present to add to the full reply I gave to my hon. Friend on 23rd March.
The output of iron and steel in general has been steadily increasing, mainly as the result of the completion of a number of new blast furnaces during recent months. [Interruption.] Blast furnaces. I might add, the construction of which was started long before nationalisation. It is expected that home production of steel in 1953 will be about 17½ million ingot tons. That is about 1.3 million tons more than in 1952.
While there will continue to be some shortage of steel plate, steel supplies as a whole are now considered to be sufficient to meet overall home demands, as well as to provide somewhat larger quantities for export. The satisfactory increase in home production should make it possible to reduce appreciably our imports of foreign steel, but if demand should rise further than is at present expected there should not be much difficulty in purchasing additional steel from abroad.
In the light of this improved position, the Government have reviewed the present controls over distribution. Subject \ to the continuance of the voluntary scheme for the distribution of steel plate which I announced recently, we are satisfied that it is no longer necessary for iron and steel to be rationed.
The Government have accordingly decided, that with the exception of tinplate, statutory control of the distribution of iron and steel shall be brought to an end. I have made the necessary Orders which will take effect as from tomorrow.
Mr. Nabarro: While congratulating my right hon. Friend on this further step on the right road to freedom, may I ask whether he is aware that his statement

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will be received with acclamation by British industry, notably the engineering industry upon whose future exports our balance of payments position so largely depends?
Mr. G. R. Strauss: Everyone will, of course, be pleased that there is now likely to be sufficient steel to allow the allocation scheme to end, but does the Government not realise that the increased production of home steel, which makes this step necessary, destroys the whole case for their denationalisation Bill and shows that it has no economic but only a doctrinaire justification? Will the Government now take the next logical step of saying that they will not pursue any further this Measure to dislocate this magnificently successful publicly-owned industry?
Hon. Members: Answer.
Mr. Sandys: I thought it was a monologue.
Mr. Strauss: Is it that the right hon. Gentleman cannot answer my question?
Mr. Sandys: I have been answering it for a number of weeks in the debates on the Iron and Steel Bill.
Mr. T. Brown: In view of the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has just made which, no doubt, all welcome, will he explain why it is that in South-West Lancashire, Clarington Forge (English Tools) Limited, of Wigan, which are large manufacturers of tools for abroad, have been short of steel blooms for the last three months?
Mr. Sandys: As I have explained on a number of occasions, there are bound to be shortages of particular types of steel even in normal times. These shortages and difficulties can only be dealt with by detailed administrative arrangements. The maintenance of a general global steel allocation would not in any way assist us to overcome the special difficulties to which the hon. Member referred and of which I am well aware.
Mr. M. Lindsay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the decision to free steel, iron and copper will be enormously welcome in Birmingham and the Black Country?
Mr. Lee: In coming to this decision, has the right hon. Gentleman taken account of the fact that production in the engineering industry did not go up, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer prophesied last year, and that if it does begin to rise now we may be faced with a shortage of steel for the engineering industry; and whether, under those conditions, he is prepared to keep in reserve some kind of allocation scheme to make quite sure that the most important products get priority?
Mr. Sandys: As I said in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) some time ago, we felt it desirable to make quite sure there was not only enough but a little more than enough before ending rationing. In estimating demand we have assumed an increase of at least 6 per cent. in the consumption of steel by industry this year.
Mr. E. Johnson: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether these very satisfactory figures apply to billets for re-rolling?
Mr. Sandys: I am referring to steel as a whole. Of course, it will cover billets, but there may be special difficulties due to particular types.
Mr. Stokes: While I am glad that the Minister accepts my right hon. Friend's irrefutable argument about the success of the nationalised industry, can he give an assurance that the availability of both basic and acid steel for boiler making— and I am a boiler maker—will become increasingly available in the very near future? At present, it is in short supply.
Mr. Sandys: I hope that when the industry is denationalised, the right hon. Gentleman will get increasing satisfaction.
Lady Tweedsmuir: As far as the voluntary scheme of distribution of steel plate is concerned, is the Minister satisfied that Admiralty authorisation for steel supplies to the shipyards in Scotland will be met, because at present they are not being met?
Mr. Sandys: That is, of course, a separate issue. I made a full statement the other day about the arrangements for the distribution of steel plate. In that statement and in answer to a further question a week later, I made it clear that the Government had asked the steel makers to increase supplies to shipbuilders.
Mr. Popplewell: Is the Minister aware that on the Wear and the Tyne fears are already being expressed by shipbuilders and ship repairers about the shortage of steel that is allocated to them? If this voluntary scheme of allocation is to break down—the statutory control is to come to an end—what action is the Minister taking to ensure that the shipbuilding and ship repairing industries on the Tyne and the Wear will get sufficient quantities to keep them in full production?
Mr. Sandys: As I have already explained in reply to an earlier question, the present system consists of the global allocation of steel. A certain number of tons of steel is allocated to consumers without the type being specified. It would not in any way help the consumers of particular types, such as the shipbuilders, who require special plate for shipbuilding. We are dealing with that in the way in which the right hon. Member for Vaux-hall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) dealt with similar problems when he ended the steel allocation scheme in 1950: that is, by continuing certain detailed administrative arrangements which, I believe, will prove effective.
Mr. Jay: In view of previous experience in steel of rapid changes from surplus to shortage and back again, is the Minister keeping in being the legal powers for an allocation scheme in case it should become necessary?
Mr. Sandys: Nothing would affect the legal powers under the Supplies and Services Act.
Mr. Grenfell: What are the prospects of increasing the demand for tinplate, so that the increasing supply of tinplate for overseas markets may consume any surplus steel which the Minister anticipates? Is the outlook for tinplate as good as the right hon. Gentleman would like it to be?
Mr. Sandys: I did not want to go into the problem of tinplate in reply to this Question. I am, however, having a meeting with representatives of the tinplate industry tomorrow to discuss this very problem.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose-
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on with the business of the day.

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS (ARRANGEMENTS)
3.44 p.m.
Mr. Herbert Morrison: I beg to move,
That this House deplores the failure of the Government so to arrange their programme of business as to enable this House adequately to consider their proposals for legislation with results contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, detrimental to the privileges of the Commons and derogatory to the legislative status of this House.
The Motion is an expression of general opinion, seeking to place on record the view of the House as to its rights as a legislative assembly and has regard to the undoubted financial privileges of the House. As the House knows, it arises from our experience in connection with a highly controversial Bill—the Transport Bill—which is now going through Parliament and is nearing the Royal Assent.
The Government, situated as they are with a small Parliamentary majority, ought to consider whether or not they should embark upon large-scale highly controversial legislation. It is difficult for a Government with a small majority to go in for substantial legislation of a highly controversial character. If such a Government does that, it is almost inevitable that it will be driven into the methods by which the Transport Bill was handled in its earlier stages in this House, by a Guillotine which was clamped down upon us, and terminated by another Guillotine on the Amendments of the House of Lords in a form which is utterly unprecedented in Parliamentary history.
Therefore, the best way for the Government to avoid this kind of thing is to avoid highly controversial legislation. That has been pointed out in the House before. We are not illogical about it, because whilst we had a big majority in 1945–50, we brought in highly controversial legislation and big Bills, but when we were reduced to a small majority of six, we realised our situation and we did not bring in substantial Bills of controversial legislation. That is a natural democratic consequence of the voice of the electors, and we had to do the best that we could in the circumstances obtaining.

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I submit that it would be wiser for the Government to learn that lesson and not try to do things in this Parliament which may or may not be right in the case of a Government with a working majority on the merits of the case but which it is certainly not right for a Government with a small, narrow majority to seek to undertake.
It is inevitable that in that situation the Opposition are exceptionally powerful, for the Government have a small majority upon which to rely. The power of the Opposition is greater than in the case of an Opposition where the Government have a substantial majority, and all these considerations should be taken into account when the Government are considering their legislative programme. If they do not do so, either they will get into a muddle with their legislative programme—which, in fact, the Government have done—or having got into a muddle, or being particularly dogmatic and doctrinaire, they will find themselves resorting to methods of getting their way in Parliament which are in spirit contrary to British constitutional practice.
There are two essentials in the relationship between the two Houses of Parliament. One essential principle is that the House of Commons should be upheld, not as the sole legislative authority but, at the end of the day, as the predominant legislative authority. The proof of that doctrine, which has been affirmed by Parliament over the years, is to be found first in the Parliament Act, 1911, which enabled this House to enforce its will in matters of legislation upon the other House. That was reaffirmed by the later Parliament Act, which stiffened the provisions of the 1911 Act and which was passed under the auspices of the Labour Government of 1945–50.
Therefore, there can surely be no challenge of the principle that this House is, not the exclusive, but in the end the predominant legislative Parliamentary authority. That surely is right in principle, too, because we are elected by the people. We represent constituencies and we are subject to election or to rejection at the will of the people. Clearly it is right that this House and not
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the other place should have a big and final voice on legislative action.
Our challenge on this point is that the Government have taken steps whereby the legislative powers in this House have been belittled and even diminished. In effect, the power of legislative initiative and authority have been undermined by the procedure the Government adopted, so that to that extent they have passed from this House to another Chamber altogether. [Laughter.] All that hon. Gentlemen opposite can do when that statement is made—a statement which is true—is laugh at it. They like it, and believe that it is a great joke that legislative authority should have passed from this House to another place.
That is the first principle. It cannot be denied that, because of the Parliament Act of 1911 and the later one of the Labour Government—nor should it be denied by hon. Gentlemen opposite—the principal legislative authority has got to be this House, even though the other House can contribute much to legislative matters, and particularly as long as it does not get into hot politics, in the field of revision, where I agree it has done good work. I say that the course which has been pursued by the Government, and which may be pursued again, is one which denies that principle.
Let it be remembered that over the whole period of the Labour Government's life from 1945 to 1950, when we had our great majority, there were only three Guillotines, and there have been three Guillotines within 18 months of this Government's life, with its small and narrow majority in this House. When we had a small majority we did not bring in a Guillotine Motion once. Therefore, my first principle is that this House should have the final legislative predominance on balance between the two Houses.
My second point—and this surely is vital—is that the House of Commons is the authority as between the two Houses in financial matters. This is not a discovery of 1911. It was affirmed in the Parliament Act, 1911, which brought in the provision whereby, if Mr. Speaker certifies a Bill to be a money Bill, it cannot be interfered with by their Lordships' House.
Sir Herbert Williams: Did Mr. Speaker certify the Transport Bill as a money Bill?
Mr. Morrison: No, but I am coming to that, because financial matters did arise on the Transport Bill. At the moment I am dealing with the bigger and larger issues as to the financial rights of this House. It was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) that the doctrine goes back a very long time indeed, and Erskine May declares on page 780 as follows:
"The modern practice in respect of the Commons' financial privileges is based upon the resolution of 1671 'That in all aids given to the king by the Commons, the rate or tax ought not to be altered by the Lords'; and that of the 3rd July, 1678, 'That all aids and supplies, and aids to His Majesty in Parliament, are the sole gift of the Commons; and all bills for the granting of any such aids and supplies ought to begin with the Commons; and that it is the undoubted and sole right of the Commons to direct, limit, and appoint in such bills the aims, purposes, considerations, conditions, limitations, and qualifications of such grants, which ought not to be changed or altered by the House or Lords'."
That is the big doctrine, and I admit that in relation to the Transport Bill, except in so far as it was the case, that public, Treasury or Exchequer money was actually involved in at least one of the Amendments, it is a fundamental doctrine that this House is the financial authority in Parliament. Directly the Government or a transitory majority of the House starts to play about with the rights of the House in financial matters, one does not know how far it will go in due course, and it may begin to damage those very principles to which I have referred.
I will return to the narrow issue in due course, but I wish to affirm at this moment that we should be at the end of the day the predominant authority in any matters of finance in the broadest sense of the term, and in a considerable amount of detail we should uphold our rights and protect our privileges. Otherwise, the rights of the citizens and the rights of the House under the Constitution may be endangered.
It is not only the duty and the right of the House of Commons to uphold these privileges, but it is the duty and the right of any British Government to uphold them, too, whether it be a Conservative Government or a Labour Government. If any Government depart from those principles or coerce the
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Houses of Commons into such a situation that it cannot exercise its rights and it acquiesces in giving up its financial rights, then that Government, which are acting contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, deserve the censure of the House, which is what we are proposing to bring upon the Government today.
In those circumstances it is essential that the House should be in a position effectively to discharge its legislative functions. If anything be done to make it impossible for this House to discharge those functions, then that is an assault upon the rights of the peoples' elected representatives.
Let us take the case of a Bill which originates in another place—because we are not concerned with the Transport Bill only in this debate today. This is a wide debate, as it ought to be. If the legislative process begins in the House of Lords, the Bill goes through its Second Reading, Committee stage. Report stage, and Third Reading there, and their Lordships can even amend a Bill on Third Reading, which we cannot do. In due course the Bill comes here. The interesting thing is that if the Bill orginates in another place the full rights of this House are preserved. It can reject the Measure or amend it, or it can make substantial changes in the provisions of the Bill.
The Amendments go back to their Lordships for consideration and they have either to accept or amend them or insist upon their opposition. In that case, where the Bill originates in another place, the full rights of the House of Commons are preserved. We can do what we like either through agreement with their Lordships or under the overriding provision of the Parliament Act.
The amazing thing is, to the surprise, I venture to say, of the bulk of the Members of the House, that in the case of a Bill originating here, as this Bill did, we have been put at a disadvantage compared with their Lordships because, while the Bill originated in this House, another place was used as a legislative stooge by Her Majesty's Government to evade the House of Commons and to prevent us from discharging our duties properly.
In all these matters one must take account of the composition of another place. It is all very well for the Government and hon. Gentlemen opposite to

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argue that in the case of the Transport Bill of 1947 a large number of Amendments were made in another place. It is true that they were, but many of them were Government Amendments, a large number of a drafting character, and many were put in to meet undertakings made in this House. It is a very different situation when another place, with its large and effective Conservative majority, makes Amendments which then come here for consideration.
It is probable that the Conservative Party in this House will agree with the Conservative majority in another place. That is natural and is to be expected. Of course, while there is never any admission of an effective contact between the Conservative Party and another place, I should be surprised if there are not very sensible arrangements for collaboration and co-operation between the Conservative Party in the two Houses. Indeed, I do not complain about that, as long as there is not a conspiracy against the popular will of the representatives of the people in this place.
It is a totally different matter, however, when a Conservative Government brings in a Bill, takes it to a Conservative House at the other end of the corridor and promotes Amendments. That, indeed, raises the rights of the Labour Opposition in a much more acute form than in the case of a Labour Government bringing in a Bill, sending it to another place with its Conservative majority, getting Amendments through and, when it comes back to this House, it is 1,000 to one—or, at least 10 to one—that the Conservative Party in this House will agree with those Amendments. It is a materially different situation as regards the relationship between the two Houses and the rights of the Opposition in this House according to whether a Labour or Conservative Government is in office.
I am not asking for privileges for a Labour Opposition; but I am asking that we should be given facilities not only for the fair discharge of our rights as a political body, and as a controversial political body, but a fair opportunity to discharge one of the essential points of the British constitution, namely, that we should discharge our constitutional rights as Her Majesty's Opposition in the House of Commons. It is profoundly important that nothing should be done to alter that.
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So it is a different situation when there is a Conservative majority here and a Conservative majority in another place as compared with when there is a Labour majority in this House and the same Conservative majority in the other place. For the Conservative Government can use another place as initiators of important legislative provisions in a Bill which, to use your own words, Mr. Speaker, has passed, has gone through its Third Reading here and cannot be reconsidered because it is finished. It goes there, and thereby the power of initiative, the power of substantial legislative action, passes outside the control of the House of Commons and enters into the House of Lords.
If that is followed by a Guillotine on the Amendments of the House of Lords, then indeed this place is put absolutely out of effective action within its essential legislative field. And not only legislatively in the ordinary sense but. as we saw, we were absolutely prohibited from picking and choosing even about admittedly privileged Amendments where financial considerations were involved. So this was a tendency to single chamber Government, and the wrong sort of single chamber Government, too.
If a Bill originates in this House, it is necessary that we should not lose our power of Amendment or revision to another place. I do not deny the right of another place to put up Amendments to this House: obviously one could not do so under the two-House system of Parliament. However, I do say that, in so far as another place amends a Bill—and particularly when the Amendments are substantial and material—it is profoundly important that the House of Commons should have an opportunity, not only specifically to challenge or to approve each of their Lordships' Amendments, but that we should have proper and ample opportunity to promote Amendments to the Amendments themselves for the consideration of Parliament. Otherwise, it can mean that big and substantial legislative changes in a Bill can be made in another place on their initiative, or can be incited by the Conservative Government of the day, with the result that this House is completely knocked out of action and thereby our elementary rights as a legislative assembly are to that extent destroyed.

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It did not stop there. We were specifically denied our financial rights. There were provisions in the Amendments which had financial significance of some concern—at any rate, sufficiently significant for Mr. Speaker to have to order them to be specially entered upon the Journals of the House. Yet we were denied every opportunity to insist upon our privileges. We were not able to consider each of these challenges to privilege on its own and on its merits. There was nothing done effectively before the Amendments were carried by the House, and then we were told that the House, having carried the Amendments, had waived its privilege.
That really will not do. I am not attacking Mr. Speaker, but it was the consequence of the Allocation of Time Order that Mr. Speaker considered that he had to give that Ruling. It really is terrible when such a situation arises whereby nothing is possible to the House of Commons on a matter of financial privilege until the Amendments have been actually voted on by the House, and then all that happens is that something is entered upon the Journals of the House.
That is going a long way, and if this kind of thing is to continue there will be a grave and serious encroachment upon our Parliamentary practices. Indeed it has already happened. Looking at it not from a party but from a Parliamentary point of view, as one who tries to be a good Parliamentarian—which I hope I am—it worries me very much that this grave encroachment should have occurred at all. It is not only that.
If this procedure goes on—as, of course, it can go on under this Government or under a Labour Government, somewhat adapted and in different circumstances—the House is denied the opportunity of voting on the merits of each case. Could anything be more preposterous? Could any Parliamentary proceeding be more absurd than when this House, on that Monday night, was faced with the necessity of saying "Yes" or "No" to a mass of Amendments from another place, our own Labour Amendments proposed to the Amendments being wiped out completely with no chance to vote on them?
What was the situation? We were unable, as we had been on the earlier Guillotine, to vote for and against specific
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Amendments. We were called upon to vote for or against the lot. Some of them we agreed with, but many we did not agree with and we wanted to vote upon the merits. Could there be anything more preposterous in the proceedings of any Parliamentary institution in the world than that hon. Members should be forced to vote on a lot of Amendments of varying merits and varying qualities "Aye" or "No" or to abstain? This is totalitarianism. It is totalitarianism. It is exactly what Hitler did with the Reichstag. I am really shocked at the limited vision, the narrow-mindedness, of hon. Members opposite, who are supposed to be constitutionalists, deliberately walking in and doing things of that sort which they might have deep cause to regret in future years, although I hope they will not.
Mr. David Renton Mr. David Renton (Huntingdon) rose—
Mr. Morrison: If I can find a Liberal-National coming to the rescue of the British Constitution, who am I to stand in his way?
Mr. Renton: The right hon. Gentleman says that full opportunity is required to discuss Lords Amendments. Would he say how many hours of discussion he considers would have been necessary to discuss the Amendments to the Bill?
Mr. Morrison: In view of the terms of the Government Amendment, I think the hon. Member might have assumed that I would be dealing with that point in due course. I am always happy to give way, but I am becoming a little tired of giving way to him, because his interventions are somewhat irrelevant to the point under discussion. Let me assure him that the point will not be overlooked in the course of my argument.
I assert, and I think I carry my hon. Friends with me, and I ought to carry every hon. Member with me, that if the Amendments of another place are substantial or material, particularly if new Clauses are involved—and they were involved in this procedure—then that is the initiating of new legislation of a substantial order. I do not say that that should never be done, but I say that if it is done it is right and proper and elementary that this House should have substantially—I use the word relatively —the same rights in the examination of

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that legislation as if it had originated in this House on Committee or Report stage. That is exactly what is now in the process of being denied. We must have the same power of revision, approval or rejection as if the Amendments had been made in this House or the legislative provisions concerned had originated in this House. Otherwise it means that to that extent we are going to single chamber government, I think of the wrong sort.
Mr. Frank Bowles: Non-elected.
Mr. Morrison: I agree with my hon. Friend—non-elected. That is why I said it is of the wrong sort. We are denying to ourselves the discharge of our duties and responsibilities of legislative examination, revision and approval or otherwise. I say that, if anything, we ought to have greater rights when Amendments come from another place, because if Amendments are inserted in Committee or on the Report stage in this House they might affect—I only say "might"—whether a Bill gets a Third Reading or not.
Suppose the changes were of such a character that the House, on reflection, came to the conclusion that the Amendments had made it a bad Bill. The House could then throw the Bill out on Third Reading. If the Amendments come from the other end of the corridor, however bad they make the Bill, we have already given the Bill a Third Reading. In your language, Mr. Speaker, the Bill has had a Third Reading and has passed. It is finished, for the time being, as far as this Chamber is concerned.
Far from it being the case that if Amendments are made in another place, that should lessen our rights, if anything it should increase the rights of the House of Commons. An Allocation of Time Order which forces the House to vote on Lords Amendments as a whole—and that is what this Allocation of Time Order did —destroys at least three rights of the House of Commons. I dare say it will be possible to think of others, but certainly these three rights are destroyed.
First of all, it destroys the right to decide Amendments on their individual merits. When we are landed in a Division—although, of course, we are not landed in one; we can abstain or not challenge the Division at all, but that makes a fool of this place—when we are
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forced into a Division, if there is one, where we say "Aye" or "No" to a whole of a mass of Amendments en bloc, that is a terrible situation which ought not to occur. I therefore say that an Allocation of Time Order of the kind which we are now developing, and which may recur, destroys that right of the House to decide Amendments on their individual merits.
Secondly, we were denied the right of this House to amend the proposed Amendments. The Allocation of Time Order denied us the right to consider proposed Amendments to the Lords Amendments. Thirdly, and not least serious, it denied us the right to waive or not to waive our privilege in financial matters.
It may be said that when the Liberal Government of 1906, of which the Prime Minister was a member, introduced a Bill, and when the Lords Amendments, which were destructive Amendments, came here, the Government moved to disagree with the whole of the Amendments. I do not like that too much, but there was more to be said for it than there was in this case, because the Liberal Government knew that that was the end of the Bill. There were mixed views about the Bill at the time, and to some that may have been not entirely unwelcome. At any rate, the Government knew that the Lords had ruined the Bill and they knew that rejecting the Lords Amendments, in the phrase of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, as a "globular Motion" in effect meant that the Bill could not make progress.
But this is another matter. This is a Bill which, as far as one can see, is going on the Statute Book, so that it is a different situation altogether. I say that the rights which I have indicated are not only rights which the Opposition should have the power ultimately to exercise; they are rights which every hon. Member on both sides of the House should have the right to exercise. I know that in the days of the Labour Government some of my hon. Friends did not agree with some of the Lords Amendments, and said so; and I never challenged their right to question Lords Amendments, even when they had been promoted by the Labour Government at the time.
I beg of hon. Members on both sides of the House to uphold their rights and

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to recognise that a Guillotine which puts Lords Amendments as a whole makes it impossible so to do, because a Guillotine which puts them as a whole and wipes out our proposed Amendments to the Lords Amendments makes selective decision impossible, makes Amendments to the Amendments impossible and destroys the financial rights of the House. One vote settles the whole thing, and I say that is farcical, unconstitutional and absolutely contrary to British Parliamentary tradition. It is essentially totalitarian in principle and practice.
Let there be no mistake about our financial rights. I have indicated to the House the basic privilege about money, which dates from 1678, and indeed earlier than that. Really in that case I do not think that even this Government have got to the point at which they would allow the Lords materially to amend the Finance Bill, or to amend it at all, although it has to be remembered that not all Finance Bills are certified as money Bills. There is a declaration in Erskine May to this effect:
"Whereas, in the case of any other Bill. the Commons feel themselves at liberty to accept"
an Amendment
"when they choose, with no more than a special record of their reasons for waiving their privilege."
But that is to accept an Amendment; it is a specific decision. There was no declaration in Erskine May contemplating that the House would be required to waive its privilege as a consequence of an Allocation of Time Order. It is the case, according to Erskine May, that the action open to the Commons
"when the Speaker has called their attention to the breach of privilege, is …either to disagree with the amendments on the ground of privilege, or to agree with them, waiving privilege pro hac vice."
This clearly means that each case is considered in turn and upon its merits. It is not a question of specifically putting to the House the issue of the waiving of the privilege, but the attention of the House is called to it and in each case the House has an opportunity of saying that we insist or do not insist upon our privileges. I have looked up the records and taken advice, and I find it is the case that there is no precedent at all for agreeing to the Lords Amendments, privilege or no
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privilege, in a single question. This is the first time that has been done and it is an additional sin that financial privilege should have been involved as well.
Of course, it may be the case that, when a main Amendment had been agreed to, consequential Amendments could go through in a block. That may well be right, but this is the first instance of the House agreeing en bloc to Lords Amendments put to us, proposed, or carried through. On the question of waiving privilege itself, it is declared in Erskine May that:
"The Commons, when they so wish, 'waive privilege' in individual cases."
Privilege cannot mean anything else than consideration of individual cases and, if we cannot consider individual cases, the privilege has gone. We are sunk, and that was what happened the other day. The Guillotine destroys all these things. It may be that a special entry is made, but it is a farcical special entry, because the House have not had an opportunity of considering them on their merits.
We have taken the earliest opportunity of challenging this procedure because it is capable of creating, and has created, grave abuse on the part of this Government. It is capable of creating much more serious abuse on the part of Governments of one colour or another in the future. There has been abuse; this was an abuse. It was not only an abuse which I think was deliberate in the circumstances of the case, but it was partly owing to the incompetence of the Government, and that does not make it any better.
The Government took a long time to make up their minds about this Transport Bill. There was more than one Bill and more than one state of mind. Indeed, material changes in policy and in state of mind were taking place right through the Committee and Report stages. That is why we had these Amendments before us. The Government have been incompetent, and it does not comfort me any more that a Government which have done things with constitutional wickedness, as they have, should also have found themselves driven to do so as a result of their incompetence as well. Neither comforts me, and both those things have happened.
The Government are to move an Amendment to this Motion. It is typically sweeping and wipes out the

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whole Motion, substituting an attack on the Opposition. The Amendment is based on the assumption that the Opposition were making legislation impossible. That is not true; we were not making legislation impossible. We were reasonably and fairly discharging not only our Parliamentary rights but our Parliamentary duties and responsibilities. It was inevitable that we should raise questions of substance for two reasons. One was that the Amendments from another place themselves raised issues of substance.
But there was another reason, and a very good one. It was that we were subjected to a brutal Guillotine in this House when the Bill was going through the House. It was a very bad Guillotine, with the result that there was a whole mass of issues which my hon. Friends and I were unable to raise because we were not permitted to do so. Even so, we disciplined ourselves and instituted, so to speak, a voluntary Guillotine within the official Guillotine. But what a silly thing it is to say that we were talking and obstructing all we could. The Chief Whip said much the opposite the other day; he said that things were going much too peacefully and we were not in earnest in opposition to the Bill.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. P. G. T. Buchan-Hepburn): That was before these Lords Amendments.
Mr. Morrison: There is no pleasing the Chief Whip anyway; I do not know what he wants. Let him think about it and drop me a note. I call the attention of the House to c. 1009 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for 21st April. There it will be seen that the Minister moved the Motion to agree with the Lords in a certain Amendment, and he did so in less than half a column of HANSARD. Let me give this example of so-called obstruction and delaying tactics. It is all in less than a column. Let me give an example of the terrible Opposition wasting time. The right hon. Member moved the Motion for agreement in less than half a column and then the OFFICIAL REPORT proceeds:
"Mr. H. MORRISON: We are much obliged for the clear explanation which has been given. We think that it is a reasonable Amendment, and the next, I gather, is really consequential on it. I advise my hon. Friends to agree to it forthwith.
Question put, and agreed to.
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Lords Amendment made.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st April, 1953; Vol. 514, c. 1009.]
What a reward it is when we have been doing things like that on the Lords Amendments for Ministers to come here and charge us with conduct destroying the responsibility and good work of the House of Commons. It really is utterly ridiculous.
There is also an assumption in the Amendment that we were unwilling to reach an accommodation. The assumption behind the Amendment is that we were making the legislative work of the the House of Commons impossible. That is not true.
Sir H. Williams: It was keeping people from their beds.
Mr. Morrison: I hope the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) will not tempt me to discuss his personal habits, because that would not be right. A Sunday newspaper might get to know about it and heaven knows what would happen.
There is this assumption that we refused to reach any accommodation and were in fact making it impossible for the House to do their work. It is not true. I say we had every right and duty to examine the Lords Amendments and every right and duty to move reasonable Amendments to those Amendments and discuss them. The Leader of the House said that we appeared to be taking an hour and a quarter, or an hour and three quarters, on each Amendment, but that is not very much. Quite a number of them were put without the Closure being moved at all. It is, therefore, an unfair and un-discriminating charge.
Of course, there came a time when the leaders of the Government asked us to see them with a view to seeing whether we could reach an accommodation. That is ordinarily done on these occasions. We made an offer that we would finish it in three days, each day finishing at 11 o'clock. The Leader of the House reported his part of the offer to us. He offered two days. At the end of the day it was not a question of 90 more hours but a question of one Parliamentary day, finishing at 11 o'clock. That was all. Really, it is a silly Government that does a terrible thing like this—it is a terrible thing—all about one Parliamentary day; and the Government did not even save that day but lost it with this Motion of censure.

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The Government have lost their reputation; they have lost their Parliamentary character; they have lost their temper, and they have lost their day. It is a silly thing to do, and is an additional piece of evidence of sheer incompetence by the leaders of the Government, including the Prime Minister himself; indeed, as one of my hon. Friends says, especially he, because he came down here in flamboyant mood one night, determined to be interrupted. He shouted abusive and cheeky sentences at us and paused, for the purpose of having ironical cheers come back at him from this side of the House.
He lost his temper. Prime Ministers do it now and again. All of them have done it in their time, except, I believe, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. I advise the Prime Minister not to do it, because he will only get into trouble and do things that in his better moments, which are rare but still happen now and again, I am sure he will regret and deplore, as I hope he will this matter. We made an offer. I am not talking about 90 hours, but about three days, which was reasonable, and there was only one day in dispute, and that day is now lost to the Government.
Therefore, we think it right that the House of Commons, not only from any party point of view but from the point of view of Parliamentary decency and Parliamentary rights, should be asked to declare that the Government's conduct has been scandalous in this matter and that it has been incompetent as well and deserves the censure which it is my honour to move this afternoon.
4.34 p.m.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crook-shank): I beg to move, to leave out from the first "the" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
"action of the Opposition designed unduly to delay legislation by attempting, on consideration of Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill, to reopen the general principles of a Bill which had already been passed by both Houses of Parliament and condemns such manceuvres as detrimental to the dignity of the House of Commons and the proper discharge of its business."
We have all listened with very careful attention to the constitutional principles enunciated by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). He certainly made the best of his case, although he has been making mountains
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instead of molehills. The general topic which we have to discuss is not this very great constitutional issue, but what has been happening in the House during the last two or three weeks.
I should like to make one point about his opening remarks. He said that no Government which did not have a large majority ought to go in for any controversial legislation. He said that in 1945 his party had a big majority, and they did; and in 1950 they had a majority of only six, and they did not; and our majority is not much more than that, so we should not do it now. That is a very curious line to take. Who is to say what is a reasonable majority for undertaking controversial Measures? I should have thought the answer was—
Mr. R. T. Paget Mr. R. T. Paget (Northampton) rose—
Mr. Crookshank: I hope I may be allowed to make my speech. I shall give the answer myself, and I do not think I shall want assistance from the hon. and learned Gentleman. Any Government which continues to be sustained by a majority in this House is entitled to go ahead. When the House withdrew its confidence, that Government would no longer be able to legislate.
As I heard the right hon. Gentleman, I had a thought and I have just had it checked and found that my recollection was right. One of the greatest and most controversial Measures was the first Reform Bill and that Bill was passed in a House of 608 Members on 21st March, 1831, by one vote. So I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman can go very far on that argument. Last Monday he said, arising out of my speech, that the Opposition would put down a declaratory Motion about the rights of the House— or that they might have to do so. He also said, and he has repeated it just now, that by our action we would not save a day. That seemed to foreshadow some other sort of Motion, hoping that we would give time for it, which, after we had considered it, we have done. But this is not a declaratory Motion. It is a censure Motion and we are therefore entitled to give our reply on the circumstances of the case.
The censure is really contained in the Amendment. It is not upon the Government for their conduct of business, but

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on the Opposition for obstructing that conduct. We really have a cast-iron case for our efforts—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] —wait for the end of the sentence—to save this House from falling into contempt as a result of the filibustering and delaying tactics so recently used against us. I gave all the facts and figures on Monday and I shall not repeat them. I only ask the House to notice one point. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to pick out one Lords Amendment on which nobody had anything to say and which took only half a column of HANSARD. I would remind him that on 22nd April, after 8½ hours' debate, only five Opposition Amendments to one Lords Amendment had been taken, yet the right hon. Gentleman said that there was no question of the Opposition obstructing or being silly.
On the next day he said that it could not be shown that the Opposition had been filibustering or obstructing. We had then had already some 30 hours on the Lords Amendments. If the right hon. Gentleman really means these things I can only think that he does not know what is meant by obstructing or being silly. We gave the House adequate time to consider the Lords Amendments, but the right hon. Gentleman complains that we did not give the House and the Opposition facilities for the discharge of their duties.
When this matter first came up we announced "one day," and at that time it was considered enough by the Opposition. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] We then offered two days, and in that they acquiesced. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Oh, yes. The other day the right hon. Gentleman opposite tried to make out, because there was no comment when I said "two days," that he did not agree with them. That is not the normal practice in this House. Our normal objective in any given week is as I enunciated it in a similar debate on 4th December—and it was accepted then by the Opposition as being correct—and it is to get the Government business which had been announced, and which, as a result of preliminary talks before the business statement, is agreed to be acceptable, of course within the limits of opposition, to the other side of the House.
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That is exactly what happened. What the Opposition now take exception to is something quite different. First of all, they objected to the original time-table Motion on the stages of the Bill. Last Monday, finally, and after 30 hours' debate, we fixed a limit of time for the debate on the Lords Amendments. That is what happened. The first Motion was to stop the filibustering on the Bill itself. We had already been threatened in the Second Reading debate with all sorts of horrors from the Opposition—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes. And from the Opposition behaviour earlier in the Session there was very good reason to anticipate obstructive tactics on this Bill. We had been warned, and in the event our anticipations were fulfilled.
There was something else, however. There was to be a terrific campaign in the country. That also fizzled out, because if Members care to look at the Second Reading debate, where it is all laid out, they will see how a mass demonstration at Wolverhampton was attended by about 200 people instead of 700 expected, how another at Peterborough, where I believe the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) was the speaker, 30 attended, and at another at Chesterfield 50; and that at delegate meeting of the Scottish T.U.C. and the Scottish Labour Party, in Edinburgh, the first speaker said:
"It is depressing to some of us who are trying to carry on this campaign to find that such an important conference as this is not better attended."
The fact was that the campaign in the country completely fizzled out, and because of their failure to whip up a campaign in the country—every pinchbeck Napoleon knows that when one does not get unity in the ranks—
Mr. Paget: On a point of order. What conceivable relevance has this to the Motion on the Order Paper?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I think it is reasonably allied to the reason why we are having the Motion of censure, which states:
"adequately to consider their proposals for legislation…."
Mr. Paget: With respect, is not the Motion of censure concerned with the handling of business in this House? What has a long and detailed discussion about an alleged campaign in the country and

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the number of people who attended a meeting in Wolverhampton or in Edinburgh to do with it?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understood that the right hon. Gentleman was bringing out these points to justify his case.
Mr. Crookshank: That is exactly the purpose of these remarks, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
I was saying that it was largely the result of the failure of that campaign that it was transferred in the final stages—
Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether—
The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): I thought the right hon. Gentleman was coming on later.
Mr. Bevan: The difference is that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that he ought to be on all the time. He should keep quiet a little. Are we to understand the argument of the Leader of the House to be that his justification for a Guillotine is that the campaign failed in the country?
Mr. Crookshank: If I may be allowed to make my remarks—
Sir H. Williams: Is it in order for an hon. Member, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to tell you to shut up?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not hear anyone say so, and it would be rather unreasonable. I have not spoken very much.
Mr. Crookshank: First I am told to keep quiet and then my right hon. Friend is told the same. I do not know how the debate will proceed.
If I may be allowed to develop my argument, I was saying that one of the results of this complete failure of the campaign outside was that when it came to these final proceedings on the Bill the Opposition obviously thought that this was the moment to try to make a demonstration. As I was saying, when the ranks are divided the best thing is to try to get them together to attack the enemy, even if it is for a poor cause and in a sham battle. It does apparently serve some purpose. Therefore, the Opposition took the completely unprecedented action of obstructing the Lords Amendments to a
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Bill. I sometimes wonder whether it was not due to the appendix of the Leader of the Opposition. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheap."] If he had been here it would not have been necessary for the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) to show his paces.
For all that, we put the original Motion on the Paper, it was in order, the House accepted it and the House, therefore, justified us in having put it down. The same thing is true about the Motion of Monday last week, of which complaint is made. It was inevitable, after the inordinate delays we had had. As a matter of fact I am sure that if they really revealed all their secrets, many hon. Members in all parts of the House were not at all surprised to see it on the Order Paper and probably had expected that it, or something like it, would have appeared long before. Therefore, again, that Motion was in order, the House accepted it and our action was thereby justified.
There was the point—my right hon. Friend can go into more detail about specific instances—about Privilege. The Motion was passed last week only after Mr. Speaker had made perfectly clear what was the position. Everyone was fully aware of what was the consequence of his action of voting for or against that Motion: by our passing it Privilege was waived. I understand that the appropriate entries were made in the Journal of the House. It does not affect the future action of the House in any way; it is just as free in future as it ever was before.
The fact that no question was to be raised about that aspect of the matter could be assumed in that the Opposition put down no Amendment to the Lords Amendments disagreeing with any one. They were not, therefore, prepared to insist upon Privilege. It was a reasonable assumption, in the circumstances, that Privilege was to be waived; the Opposition did not put down a single point to which they took exception.
We do not think that any such Motion as we put down should be put down without the strongest possible case, but we feel, and we know, that on this occasion we had just that. The fact is that the Opposition did not realise that that Motion could be put down. They thought there would have to be a whole day spent on a time-table, instead of

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which there was only a couple of hours. They thought they were going to make us lose an extra day in that way.
All measures for curtailing debate, from the Closure upwards, are repugnant to everybody, and are resorted to only with very deep regret by any Government—[An HON. MEMBER: "Crocodile tears."] Were they crocodile tears when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South used to come here with his Guillotine Motions? Of course not. It is done with the utmost regret, but whether such Motions are put down must depend on the circumstances of each particular case.
Mr. Sydney Silverman Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne) rose—
Mr. Crookshank: No, I would prefer to make my own speech for once.
As I was saying, whether such Motions are put down must depend on the circumstances of each particular case, and we ought not to try to lay down any general principles on how, when and where time-table Motions should be resorted to. I made our case the other day to the satisfaction of the majority of the House, and all these words which the right hon. Gentleman has imported into his speech and which the Opposition have imported into their Motion about "contrary to the spirit of the Constitution" are really only their version of the results of what happened; I do not accept it as a correct description, or anywhere near it.
The fact was that the Amendments which were the cause of this prolonged debate were largely concessions to the other side of the House. We could—my right hon. Friend will deny this if I am wrong—have avoided a great deal of this trouble if we had not offered these concessions in another place. Is this the lesson? Are we now to learn never to make any offers to the other side—never? Is that to be the logical conclusion? I hope not, because it would suit neither party and would certainly not have suited the Opposition when they were in power.
The right hon. Gentleman used to talk a great deal in the early days of the last Parliament about streamlining the procedure of the House, and I see now he is describing this in a speech on Saturday
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as a "constitutional outrage." May I remind him of what he did say to the House:
"…let not the Conservative Party "—
naturally, he said that because he was speaking at us—
"take the view that if anybody makes changes in Parliamentary procedure with a view to Parliament becoming a more expeditious and efficient servant of the nation therefore he is upsetting the British Constitution … Merely because we probably shall make some changes in Parliamentary precedent let not the hon. Gentleman work himself up into a state"—
the right hon. Gentleman himself is getting near to doing that today—
"and declare that the whole fundamentals of the British Constitution are about to be undermined. That is only a rather wild way of saying that he does not agree with what we are proposing to do."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th August, 1945; Vol. 413, c. 1049.]
I think that puts the "constitutional outrage" in this context in a better setting than he drew. It is a favourite phrase of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I remember the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), in his book, described the boards of nationalised industries which he himself helped to set up as being "constitutional outrages." He will find the reference on page 98, I think.
The fact is that all this sound and fury and endless talks has been with the object of impeding the putting into effect of the will of Parliament and of the people. It is not the first time it has been done this Session. There was the Army and Air Force Bill, 17½ hours; the Public Works Loan Bill, 10 hours; the Expiring Laws Bill, 13½ hours. May I venture to say this to the House, if it will allow me to do so, in case it may wish to take it to heart.
"…democracy in this country is very much on its trial, and we have to be very careful that it does not fall into the same disrespect in this country as that into which it fell in most of the countries of Western Europe by the undue exercise of criticism, on trivial points leading to the loss of faith in the capacity of democracy to do the things which are required of it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th October, 1945; Vol. 414, c. 861.]
That is just what we have been near to securing in these debates. Those are not my words. They are the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). Perhaps he had better go on repeating them to his party, just as he did to the Parliament of 1945. Beware of undue exercise of criticism on

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trivial points for fear that we become impotent to do what everybody knows needs doing. That is just where we have got to in this affair.
To talk about reducing the legislative status of this House, as the Motion does, and as the right hon. Gentleman did, is, as he knows, all stuff and nonsense— and more nonsense than stuff, too, I should think. He knows that it is patently absurd. If the right hon. Gentleman and the Opposition think there is something in it—and there is not— it is open to them to rescind the refusal they have given to the invitation of the Government to join in conference to discuss the problems of the House of Lords. They have refused to do that.
What is, however, quite clear is that this Government are not to be censured in the country for the way they have reacted to the methods the Opposition have chosen to obstruct public business. On the contrary. The Government will be praised for putting a limit to such nonsensical and unwarranted proceedings. People outside do not want to see the business of this House degenerate into a farce—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The cheers were just as loud on both sides of the House, so I take it that we are agreed about that.
What the country wants is the adequate ventilation of grievances and a good, healthy, reasonable scrutiny given to legislation as it passes through Parliament. It does not want, as was said by the chorus of frogs in Aristophanes:
"This obtuse and mighty battle
of profound and learned prattle."
This is not the first Motion of censure moved this Session even though the Session is only six years old—is only six months old; it is the second—
Mr. S. Silvennan: It seems like six years.
Mr. Crookshank: It certainly did after 30 hours on the Lords Amendments. It is interesting and significant that both these Motions of censure have been confined to matters of Parliamentary procedure. We welcome the converse implied vote of confidence in our foreign policy and in our domestic policy as a whole. There was no formal censure about them. We have had no Motion of
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censure about housing, for instance. Evidently the quarterly returns published at the week-end have persuaded the Opposition that their earlier doubts about the target of 300,000 houses were needlessly pessimistic. We have had no Motion of censure about taking tea, sweets, and eggs and, later, sugar, and today steel, off the ration—or even providing more red meat. There has been no Motion of censure for our failure to give effect to the promise of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) that there would be a million unemployed last Christmas.
There has been no Motion of censure upon us for keeping the cost of living more steady—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] —for a longer period—[HON. MEMBERS: "And higher."]—than for some years past. There has been no Motion of censure upon us for having increased family allowances or pensions or for improving social service benefits. The Opposition have nothing at all about which to censure us in our conduct of public affairs. Our Administration is successful—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Then why not censure us about it? Our legislation is popular and hon. Gentlemen opposite know it—
Mr. S. Silvenman: On a point of order. I wish to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, though I hope you will rule that the right hon. Gentleman is in order, whether, as a result of what he is now saying, it will be in order, on this Motion, to debate the whole of the conduct and policy of the Government during the last 18 months?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot say as to the future of the debate, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we are at present in order.
Mr. S. Silvenman: That, I am afraid, is not what I asked. I asked whether, as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, which you say are perfectly in order, it will be equally in order for the rest of us, during the course of the debate on this Motion, to debate the whole of the Government's policy and administration and conduct of public affairs during the past 18 months.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think that, generally speaking, that is so, but I do not propose to bind myself in advance. How can I?
Mr. Crookshank: The trouble is that the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) does not seem to be able to distinguish between illustration and the main topic. I was merely pointing out that over the general field of administration the actions of the Government had not been censured at all, and I was pointing out one or two reasons why I thought that had not been done. Instead, we have twice been censured on matters of procedure.
The only hope of the Opposition, so far as I can see, of putting down any Motion which might even be considered by the Government, on reflection, as one of censure, is so to obstruct the Government's business as to force us, in the interests of the House as a whole, to curtail the time for debate and then to complain that we have had to do it. That is the process. The Opposition obstruct business, they force us, very regretfully, to curtail the time allotted, and then they censure us for doing that. But the great issues of the day pass by accepted, and I think that that is a most remarkable fact which should be put on the record.
The right hon. Gentleman was complaining in the final words of his speech that our Amendment, which I am moving, appeared to be a Motion of censure on the Opposition. Of course it is. Their Motion censures us and we put the ball back into the other court and ask the House to censure them, because we believe that all these activities of the Opposition are:
"…detrimental to the dignity of the House of Commons and the proper discharge of its business."
It is for that reason that, with confidence, I ask the House to uphold the action which the Government were compelled by the Opposition to take.
5.2 p.m.
Mr. Geoffrey Bing: I regret that the Prime Minister should be leaving the Chamber now. He perfectly well realises that the speech which we have just heard is a complete negation, word for word, of that speech which the Prime Minister himself addressed to the House just three years ago. A little later, perhaps, the House will allow me to call attention to what the Prime Minister said. I hope that in those circumstances the Patronage Secretary will have the courtesy to inform his right hon. Friend that I
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intend so to do. Perhaps the Prime Minister will then be able to return to the Chamber.
It is unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House did not have time to deal with the Amendment he was moving. He dealt with the need for moving other Motions of censure. He asked why we did not discuss the Government's housing policy. A vote of confidence or otherwise in the Government's housing policy will be passed this week at the local government elections. Let the right hon. Gentleman come back to us then and say that he has got a vote from the country.
I think that my right hon. Friends wore quite right in putting first in their order of preference of all the matters on which they should censure the Government the observation of the practices of democracy. Whatever else can be said on the other matters, they certainly cannot be discussed unless we have the opportunity to discuss them in the House, and under the present procedure, if it is carried to its logical conclusion, it is unlikely that we shall have the opportunity of discussing anything.
The best example of the way in which the right hon. Gentleman's mind works was his complaint that because we took some time in discussing the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill the proceedings of the House degenerated into a farce. If the House decides that a Bill shall be continued only for a year, I should think that the proceedings of the House degenerate into a farce if, year after year, that Bill is passed on the nod. Therefore, a time comes when the House should take an opportunity to consider all these Measures—perhaps not every year, but at any rate at some time.
Those of us who have served on the Select Committee are precluded from making any remarks about the Army Act, but I can say that there is a Committee whose reports are continually before the House showing that the Army Act required to be amended in almost every Clause. Was it, therefore, a waste of time in the House to have attempted to have done that? Was it a waste of time to come to an arrangement with the right hon. Gentleman so that the work could be done upstairs in Committee?
The Leader of the House should have considered the nature and meaning of his

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Amendment. He is attempting to censure my right hon. and hon Friends for reopening the general principles of the Transport Bill on the Amendments from the Lords. What happened in 1947 when the Amendments from the Lords to the previous Transport Bill came back to the Commons? They were a complete reopening of the proceedings. If hon. Gentlemen opposite are interested and care to turn up the "Financial Times" of 23rd June, 1947, they will see that that newspaper pointed this out and said, in fact, that the Lords had made the greater part of the Bill unworkable. But it came back to be reconsidered upon the general principles.
The right hon. Gentleman's party have a permanent majority in the House of Lords. What he says is, "By the use of our permanent majority in the House of Lords we can reopen any question we like, and the House of Commons can be forced to debate twice any proposition." The Amendments made to the 1947 Transport Measure were almost word for word the same Amendments as those discussed in the Commons. Therefore, they were discussed here on two occasions. The right hon. Gentleman's argument is that so long as his party have a majority in the House of Lords they can insert new principles and then use the Guillotine so that they are not discussed at all.
If that is the use to which the House of Lords is to be put, all my hon. Friends on this side of the House will have to reconsider their attitude towards it. If it is said that when the Conservative Party are in Opposition the House of Lords can be used so that every Amendment they move here can be discussed twice, but when they are in Government the House of Lords will be so used that the Commons cannot discuss Amendments at all, then we may well come to the conclusion on this side that the House of Lords is completely useless and is merely an impediment to democratic government.
The Leader of the House complained of the way in which he had been treated, but that merely flows naturally and obviously from the fact that he failed to secure the majority of the votes in the country. Under the slight weighting of the electoral system that gives him only a
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small majority in the House. In those circumstances the democratic machine is, fortunately, so adjusted that it is impossible for legislation to be forced through unless the Government are prepared to govern by Guillotine and Closure.
Nothing illustrates more the failure of the Tory Party of their belief in themselves, than the change which has come over that party in the last 70 years on the use of the Closure and the Guillotine. When the Prime Minister's father was one of the great leaders of the Conservative Party he proposed that the party should go to the country on the issue of the introduction of the Closure, and that they should fight it. Why did the Conservative Party in those days take that view? It was because they had confidence in themselves then. They believed that they could win by argument. They thought that if they put their case by argument they had no need for a Closure. They thought that they had so much public opinion behind them that they could get matters through without these artificial aids.
What has happened? There has been a complete change-round. This Government more than any other Government have tried to rule and govern this House by Closure. In the last Session they did not see fit to introduce any of the legislation which they had announced in the King's speech. My right hon. Friends on the Front Bench, and the House as a whole, on the Finance Bill—the one Measure which nearly always must, by its very nature, provoke the use of the Closure—arranged matters so that there was no need at all throughout the whole of the Bill to move the Closure. Yet the Closure was moved on 62 occasions by the Chief Whip or one of his deputies and accepted. That number of times when the Closure was moved and carried is almost twice the number of times when the Closure has ever been moved and carried in any Session of Parliament.
In the last Parliament, when my right hon. Friends were in power and when we had a very small majority, the Closure was moved on only 32 occasions, and 19 of those occasions were on the Finance Bill. The maximum number of times when the Closure was moved in the 1945–46 Session—and that was a very

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long Session, with much controversial legislation—was only 38, and most of those occasions were, as were the others, on the Finance Bill.
Let us compare the Patronage Secretary with his great predecessor, Lord Margesson. How did Lord Margesson, the great despot, as he was depicted at the time, rule the House in 1938–39? He moved the Closure on only two occasions. In 1937–38, he was a little more brave and moved it on three occasions. In 1936–37, he moved it eight times, and, in the Session 1935–36—the Session in which all the unemployment legislation and matters of that sort, which were highly controversial, were going through, he moved the Closure on only 13 occasions.
There has been a quite different approach to the method of government by the present Government from that which was adopted either by the Labour Government or by the Tory Party when previously in power. It is a quite different method of approaching Parliamentary questions. It is remarkable how easily and how simply hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite adapt themselves to the new situations. They were all shouting and jeering when my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) moved the Closure, and they said that to behave in this way was to behave as if one was a Fascist and as if this was a Fascist kind of technique.
I cannot think that they will react in that way to some words used by the Prime Minister himself, and it is worth while looking back at the guide to conduct which was laid down for Parliament by the Prime Minister when he was in Opposition. Speaking on the Transport Bill and Town and Country Planning Bill (Allocation of Time) Order, in March. 1947, the present Prime Minister said this:
"When you are dealing with matters of great principle, where one side of the House thinks this and another side of the House thinks that—then we come to a clash where no kind of parley is possible, and it can only be settled by voting. But with Bills of this kind, like Town and Country Planning, Transport, Electricity—all these Bills which affect vast numbers of people, and vast numbers of local authorities, and small and intricate interests that have grown up throughout the country—it surely would be an advantage to the Government to have these Measures a little shaped and a little fitted to the shoulders of the public who are to obey them."
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Perhaps the Minister of Transport will have an opportunity of inquiring from the Prime Minister whether these principles apply only when right hon. Gentlemen opposite are in Opposition, or whether they are of universal application. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
"I should have thought that it was not at all wise to proceed on this naked line of saying, ' We have a majority; we are going to get our Measures through, and we will not give time for them to be discussed—we will vote you down.'"
Is that still the policy? May we have a declaration from the Minister of Transport, when he replies to the debate, on whether he is still in agreement with these sentiments?
There is a particular one about the nature of foreign Parliaments, which perhaps he thinks are shaped better and well fitted for other types of rule. [HON. MEMBERS: "Spain."]
The Prime Minister went on to say:
"That is reducing legislative Assemblies to mere registration machines of Government will. The whole aspect of the British Constitution has been to the contrary. It has been the shaping of legislation by the action of Parliament, by the influence of minorities from day to day; and even the time factor has had a modifying effect."
Is the time factor now no longer to be allowed to have its modifying effect? Is it that delay and obstruction are perfectly all right when right hon. Gentlemen opposite are in Opposition, but quite wrong when they are in Government?
Then the Prime Minister went on to say:
"That is why, in this island, there is a very great respect for the law, because the laws have been shaped by Government and Opposition."
But how can laws be shaped by Government and Opposition if they are merely passed in another place and Guillotined here? We ought really to know whether these principles do or do not apply.
The Prime Minister went on to say, possibly with a future Minister of Transport in mind:
"It is quite true that in foreign countries they have followed other methods."
Of course they have. In the Cortes in Spain, no doubt, things are done in this expeditious manner. As for the Minister

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of Transport, we know his views on this matter, and, no doubt, he has been an apt pupil of General Franco.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. I do not know General Franco, and that is a fact which I have to point out from time to time to Labour hon. Members of this House and outside who ask me for letters of introduction when they want to visit Spain.
Hon. Members: Who are they?
Mr. Bing: It seems to me that hon. Members are all very observant in picking out the right hon. Gentleman who would be most likely to give them a favourable introduction in that quarter. Those who have made such an approach are to be commended on their good sense in seeking an introduction—
Mr. Ellis Smith: Who are they?
Mr. Bing: The Prime Minister went on to say:
"They have admired our Parliamentary system, but they have not liked it, because of the corresponding inconvenience."
That is exactly the argument of the right hon. Gentleman. He says, "It is very inconvenient to have a full discussion on the Lords Amendments; look at the time we are held up over them." The Prime Minister continued:
"They have liked to have assemblies filled with members so long as the Executive will was in no way affected."
But what was the effect of the right hon. Gentleman's argument. He said, "We must get it through by a certain time." They were prepared, if all hon. Members here agreed, to carry it through by a certain date, which I think was before Easter. The only argument addressed by the Leader of the House to the House, so far as I recall, when the matter was first discussed, was that, unfortunately, the Government had got to get it through before Easter. Is that not exactly what the Prime Minister was talking about and exactly contrary to the argument put forward the year before?
The Prime Minister ended with a very striking phrase, and I will not quote any further after this. I am only sorry that the right hon. Gentleman is not here, so
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that he might say whether he agrees or disagrees with himself. He has managed to maintain political leadership of various types at various times, probably by disagreeing with himself. We ought to know whether these words were flung out in a moment of inconsideration, or whether they represent a great constitutional doctrine, expounded by somebody who, after all, has been in this House for far longer than any of us, and whose membership has been interrupted only by unfortunate changes of policy or party from time to time.
"We have always had the idea that, for good or for ill, the Measures which go out, and which the nation has to obey, should carry with them the sanction of Parliament and should have been shaped by Parliamentary fingers."— [OFFICIAL REPORT. 3rd March, 1947; Vol. 434, c. 83–4.]
Is it suggested that to curtail the Lords Amendments was to shape the matter by Parliamentary fingers? The whole of the Prime Minister's argument, devoted at very considerable length, was to the effect that Parliament is not just a place where the majority decides, but where, after discussion, the very fact that a controversial matter will involve delay leads to change and alteration. If we are to abandon that, well and good, but let us at least know where we are, because I am quite certain that right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House will have very seriously to reconsider their ideas of what is to be the constitutional future of this country and what is to be the relation of this House to another place as a result of what is said here today in this debate.
If, in fact, it turns out that the right hon. Gentleman is going to stick to his point and is to say that there should be no discussion on questions of principle when they come down from the House of Lords when the right hon. Gentleman commands a majority, but that there can, of course, be the fullest discussion whenever Lords Amendments come down when there is a Government which does not correspond to the perpetual, fixed and hereditary majority of another place, then, of course, we on this side of the House will have to think very hard again as to what is to be the future of the House of Lords. In these circumstances, it is very important that in this debate we should have a categorical answer to what are the main issues of the debate. So far,

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there has not been one word from the right hon. Gentleman as to the meaning of the phrase:
"to reopen the general principles of a Bill "
which appears in his own Amendment.
If it is to be agreed that the general principles of the Bill may not be reopened as a result of an action in another place, then we know where we are. It means that no major Amendments are to be made in the House of Lords by either party. If, on the other hand, it means that right hon. Gentlemen opposite are entitled to make major Amendments in the House of Lords, but that we are not entitled to discuss them in the Commons, then the whole constitutional position as regards the House of Commons is in the melting pot.
I feel that there could have been no more important Motion than that set down by my right hon. Friends. It is time that we made clear to the country what is the use of the other place and what is the use which is now being made of it by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. It is time that we declared that we are here having government not by the Commons but by the Lords, and that we on this side of the House showed by our vote that that is a constitutional principle for which we will not stand.
5.24 p.m.
Sir Herbert Williams: I have had 20 years' experience in this House and another 20 years of close observation, but this is the silliest Motion of censure that has ever been moved in the history of the House of Commons, supported by two of the silliest speeches to which I have listened for a long time
Let us examine the doctrine adduced by both the hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) and by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), who opened the debate. They have said that the House of Lords was trying to overrule this House. I have here the OFFICIAL REPORT of all the proceedings on this Bill in the House of Lords—Committee, Report stage and Third Reading. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which century?"] This century, on this Bill, and they had 13 Divisions all told, and every one of the Amendments which came here from the House of Lords was passed unanimously. Not a single
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Amendment over which there has been all this noise was resisted in the House of Lords by the 30 or so Socialist peers who took part in the debates.
This Motion of censure is the biggest bit of humbug I have ever known. Up to now, nobody has mentioned any of these things. Not in respect of one item has the other place tried to overrule the views of this House. I do not think that any hon. Members opposite have taken the trouble to look at these documents, but if anybody wants to see them here they are. They make interesting reading. I have marked every Division which took place, and every Amendment that came from the other place was passed unanimously, so that all the noble Lords in the other place who belong to the party opposite agreed to every one of them.
Mr. R. J. Mellish: It does not follow that we do.
Sir H. Williams: The noble Lords are so well under the discipline of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South that they were all in consultation with hon. and right hon. Members of this House who conducted the Opposition to this Bill. That being so, what is the basis of all this opposition? It is fraud and humbug. When I interrupted the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South he sought to make some rude observations to the effect that when in bed I snored. I do not. I have never heard myself snore.
It is not as if this Bill were as good as it might be. I am a much more violent denationaliser than many of my right hon. Friends who sit on the Government Front Bench. I do not know of a single nationalised industry which is not worse than a comparable private enterprise industry in any country and in any age. That is why I am rather more advanced than some of my right hon. Friends. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Post Office?"] Yes, what about the Post Office. They sell penny stamps at 2½d. and it now takes much longer to deliver my letters than it did when I was a boy many years ago.
After all, I have some criticisms to make of my right hon. Friends who sit on the Government Front Bench. There are far too many words in this Bill; I could have done it much easier. All they have to do is to sell off a few lorries, because that is what the Bill mainly does.
Mr. James Callaghan: At a loss.
Sir H. Williams: They have not been sold yet, so we cannot say whether it will be at a loss or not. The other thing the Bill does is to tell the railways to decentralise themselves. How many lorries are there? Forty thousand? That is nothing to what the then Minister of Supply did when the Labour Government were in power. He sold tens of thousands of lorries without a Parliamentary Bill. In one case, according to a newspaper that supports the party opposite, he sold 6,000 lorries and the buyers took delivery of 14,000. One can read all about it in that paper, which describes how Ernest Reids bought lorries from the right hon. Gentleman when he was the Minister of Supply. Six thousand were sold and 14,000 were collected, and the right hon. Gentleman has not sued the paper. I think that the present Minister will do a bit better than that.
Out of the 20 years that I have been in this House, I have, unfortunately, spent only about 18 months in opposition. Of course, as we all know, it is much more fun, for certain purposes, being on the other side. There are better opportunities for activity when in opposition. I remember one occasion, when in opposition, that we had a debate on six Prayers on the cost of living which did not start until two in the morning because of the debate on the Army Estimates.
My right hon. Friend was speaking on the first Prayer when the then Speaker, unfortunately, gave what I think was a mistaken ruling. He would not allow debate on the six Orders at once. The present Speaker has taken a different view. My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. H. Nicholls) was heckled all the time he spoke; I was heckled all the time I spoke, and the delays in the whole of the proceedings that night were due not to us but to hon. Members opposite. If anyone does not believe me he should look at HANSARD.
I appreciate that it is the duty of the Opposition to oppose. On more than one occasion when an hon. Member opposite has raised a point of order which I have thought was legitimate I have defended his right to raise it. I realise that the party opposite have their rights, and I can say without the slightest hesitation, in
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the presence of hon. Members who have known me for a long time, that I have never failed to take my part in protecting the rights of any hon. Member, whatever party he belongs to. I have always recognised the right of the Opposition to oppose, but this nonsense over the Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill has been the most awful nonsense.
The Lords Amendments were all accepted by the Socialist Peers in the House of Lords, and surely it is foolish and stupid to spend a whole day discussing whether we should consider them. That is something that has never happened in the history of any sensible Opposition. I can only conclude that three or four hon. Members opposite thought that they would invent a new kind of procedure to show how bright and clever they were. They failed to display either their brightness or their cleverness. They merely bored us most of the time, and thank goodness we did not listen to them. We remained to vote solidly because we knew what nonsense it all was. I hope that no Opposition will ever disgrace itself again by having the folly to put down so stupid a Motion of censure.
5.33 p.m.
Mr. Frank McLeavy: I am sure that we all like to hear the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams). We are always particularly pleased by his humorous speeches, and I am perfectly sure that the speech which he has just delivered was never intended to be in a serious vein.
Sir H. Williams: Certainly it was.
Mr. McLeavy: I want first of all to comment on the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) when he moved the Motion. I felt that my right hon. Friend put forward a serious case against the conduct of the Government in setting aside what we believe to be the constitutional rights of Members of this House. My right hon. Friend made a substantial case and justified the Motion.
Any real democrat will deplore the failure of the Government to arrange their programme and business so as to afford the House of Commons adequate time to consider the legislation before it. If we go back over the history of the Transport

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Bill, we find a very sad story. First of all, the Government introduced a White Paper on transport. Then they had a second thought and introduced a Bill. Then they had another thought, and finally they brought in the new Bill and decided to apply a Guillotine upon this most contentious Bill, an unconsidered Bill which did not enjoy the support and confidence of responsible people in the transport industry, a Bill which even the professional papers denounced and described as inadequate, foolish and unreasonable.
That is the picture with which we were presented. The Government decided that rather than allow adequate discussion on this inadequate Bill in the Commons they would apply the Guillotine. I am not going to deny that a Government is entitled to get its legislation in due time, but I maintain that the Opposition are entitled to have reasonable time in which to examine the provisions in a Bill and put forward appropriate Amendments.
In a previous debate on the Transport Bill I commented that many of us who are interested in the workers' side of the transport industry were not able to speak in the Second Reading debate because of its limited character, since the Government had decided on a time-table and a Guillotine. I warn hon. Members opposite that if we are to maintain the constitutional Parliamentary system in this country against the other types of government, whether it be Fascism or Communism, we shall only do so and we shall only deserve to do so if we convince the country that ours is a really democratic system and that it works equally for the Opposition as for the Government.
I must register my protest on behalf of organised labour against the deplorable and despicable action of the Government in applying the Guillotine, in preventing the democratic system working and preventing the point of view of organised labour from being properly placed before the House. If we are to prove to the nation that democracy is better than dictatorship, we must at least satisfy the country that the minority, the ordinary rank-and-file working men and women, will have their case put before the House of Commons in the same way as any other interest.
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As for the Lords Amendments, we were not allowed adequate time to discuss what constitued a miniature Bill. The Minister of Transport knew very well that when the Bill went from this House to another place it would have to be substantially amended not only to meet some of the legitimate criticisms of hon. Members on this side of the House but to make it more workable and practicable by the introduction of substantial Amendments, new Clauses and the like. Having regard to these circumstances it appears to me, and I am no lawyer, thank God, and I do not raise long points of order—
Mr. Ellis Smith: One does not have to be a lawyer to do that.
Mr. McLeavy: It appears to me, as one who has come direct to this House from among men engaged in the industry, that these men have at least the right to have their case properly examined by the House of Commons. My charge, and indeed the charge made by this Motion, against the Government is that they have misused the right of a small majority in this House, and incidentally a minority of votes in the country, to prevent adequate discussion of the Transport Bill.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South put forward very serious constitutional arguments that the Government were at fault in applying the Guillotine, in the first place, and the time-table to the Lords Amendments. I read in the Press a little while ago that the Prime Minister had invited the leaders of all parties to meet him to discuss the reform of another place. I suggest respectfully that this action on the part of the Government may very well decide not the reform of another place but the ending of it altogether. If another place is to be used as an instrument to make substantial Amendments to an Act of Parliament and when those Amendments come to this elected Chamber we are to be denied the opportunity to discuss and to amend them, there will be such an outcry in this country that the people will demand the ending of another place altogether.
Mr. Ellis Smith: It is time they did. too.
Mr. McLeavy: And quite rightly, too. As it is at present constituted, the other place is not a representative or elected Chamber, and in so far as it does not

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claim to represent the electorate its Members have no right above the commoners in this House. I register my protest as an individual against the misuse by the Government of the time-table regulations to prevent adequate discussion here. I thought that the Leader of the House was very weak indeed in his reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South. The right hon. Gentleman referred almost with joy in his heart to the fact that the Reform Bill was carried by one vote. But that was a reform Bill. [Interruption.] Yes, it was. It was not a destructive Bill like the Transport Bill. It was not a Bill that was going to destroy, but a Bill that was to increase the power of the elected Members.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: It depends which side one was on.
Mr. McLeavy: Of course it did. I know very well the side the noble Lord was on during the whole of the debate on the Transport Bill. It was not the side of organised labour. He was on the side of the Road Haulage Association. But at least he should be the last person in the world to deny to the House of Commons the right to have adequate time to debate this matter when he knows that another place has put forward Amendments.
Mr. Ellis Smith: The noble Lord is on Cromwell's side.
Mr. McLeavy: The Leader of the House has talked about obstruction from this side of the House, but he did not refer to statements made by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Boothby) when he talked publicly about harrying the Labour Government. The significant fact is that that occasioned one of the rare moments in Parliamentary history when Mr. Speaker—and I refer to the previous Speaker—made a reference to the speech made by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East when we were debating the question of the rights of both sides of this House. Mr. Speaker said that he must bear in mind the speech made by the hon. Member. There has not been a single occasion in this Parliament during its 18 months of existence that Mr. Speaker has had occasion to refer to a deliberate statement of obstruction from this side of the
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House. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East not only made that statement but was very boastful about it.
The Amendment moved to this Motion is really disgraceful, because it implies that in demanding the right to examine important Amendments to the Transport Bill the Opposition are unduly delaying legislation. In other words, the Leader of the House is telling us on this side that we must not demand adequate, fair and reasonable time to consider Government legislation, otherwise we shall be charged with the offence of seeking to delay the administrative and legislative work of the Government.
It is argued in the Amendment that on consideration of the Lords Amendments we were attempting to re-open the general principle of the Bill, but in fact the Lords Amendments themselves re-opened the general discussion on the Bill and themselves constituted almost an entirely new Bill. The Lords Amendments were substantial in number and in the provisions which they made. The argument contained in the Government Amendment today to the effect that we were seeking to re-open the general principle of the Bill seems to me to be a very poor argument indeed. The Opposition were right in putting down this Motion because, although the Government have a slight majority in the House, they are in a minority in the country, and it is not right that they should seek to play about with the Constitution of Parliament.
The important thing is not whether a Conservative Government on one occasion or a Labour Government on another manages by a twist of the Constitution to get through some stupid Bill, but whether, in the long run, we are preserving the spirit of the Constitution and the rights of hon. Members in this House. The Government have miserably failed to do that, in their anxiety to get through legislation. They have taken a step which will lower the esteem of this House in the eyes of the public, who will not believe all the Tory stories about obstruction when they remember the terrible experience which the Labour Government went through on the Gas Bill and on other occasions, due to the action of the Conservative Opposition. The public will form its own opinion and it will be disgusted at the continued policy of this

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Government to try to prevent the democratic expression of opinion by hon. Members of this honourable House of Commons.
5.52 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: I am sure everyone will agree with the main point which was made by the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) in the first part of his speech, when he said that adequate time should always be provided in this House for debating questions which are material for decision, though there will always be a dispute whether the time afforded is adequate.
There also seems to be general agreement on both sides of the House that its business has somehow got into a muddle and that in some way discussions and debates have taken up time which might have been used for more profitable purposes. The trouble is that the Government accuse the Opposition of having brought about that state of things and the Opposition accuse the Government of having done so. That attitude will not carry us very far. Far and away more important than this Bill or any party is the position and rights of the House and its power with regard to legislation.
That brings me at once to the speech of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). With his general propositions, made at the outset of his speech, there must again be general agreement. First, in matters of legislation there can be no doubt that this House is paramount. Whatever doubt there may have been even down to 1911, there can be no doubt now. Since that time the House of Peers has never seen fit to challenge this House on any material matter. This House is representative of the people; it is elected by the people, and in that respect it differs fundamentally from the other place.
Secondly, with regard to matters of finance, this House is not only paramount but has what may be described as exclusive power. That privileged position has been challenged only once in the course of some 300 years, with the result that we made it perfectly clear, after two elections, that the other House had lost all power with regard to finance and that this House had exclusive power over it.
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So far, so good. Now we come to the Motion which has been put down by the Opposition. It contains some very serious charges. It says that the Government have acted contrary to the spirit of the Constitution; that they have acted in a way which is detrimental to the privileges of this House and derogatory to its legislative status. If those three charges are true, the situation is a very serious one. It is the duty of this House and every Member in it to preserve its status and privileges, and if those are in any way endangered this matter should certainly be debated very seriously.
But is the language which was used by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South the right sort of language? If what he was saying was, "These three matters have been brought about because of the refusal of the Government to give one extra day for debate"—[Interruption.] That is what it came to. The right hon. Gentleman was saying that the Opposition would have been perfectly content if extra time had been given, if the Government had only been more reasonable and had given that extra day.
Mr. Bevan: What the right hon. and learned Gentleman says on behalf of the Liberal Party is exceedingly important, but it is also important that he should get our position quite clear. We have not said that at all. What we have said is that a grave constitutional question arises over the application of the Guillotine to the consideration of Lords Amendments.
Mr. Davies: I am coming to that question. Undoubtedly the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South gave us to understand, not only today but last week, that if the extra day had been granted facilities would have been given on both sides in an endeavour to bring the whole matter to a close within that day, in which case no Guillotine would have been necessary.
Mr. Bevan: Even the official leaders of the Opposition cannot give away the Constitution. Even if my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said that all he wanted was another day, that would not of itself have relieved the situation. Hon. Members in all parts of the House have rights, and no party leader can give away those rights. We are not arguing about one day; we are arguing about the Guillotine on the Lords Amendments.
Mr. Davies: I thought I had made that position perfectly clear at the outset. I 'have said that every Member of this House has a duty to protect its privileges and its status, and no leader of the Opposition or Government has any right to bind completely its Members, but we know that, by the conventions of the House in order that business may go through arrangements are made which are usually accepted by all hon. Members. I will come to the effect of the Guillotine in a moment.
I thought that one of the main objections now being made to what has been happening is that undue use has been made of the other place to amend Bills. Undoubtedly, in recent years more use has been made of the other place for the amendment of Bills than at any other time in my recollection. The fault lies not merely with the present Government; it also lay with the Government of 1945.
There is another matter which I had almost forgotten. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South put forward the proposition that when a Government has only a small majority it ought not to introduce highly controversial Measures, although it is apparently all right when they have a substantial majority. He said that in 1945 the then Government had a very great majority, and they rightly set about producing a vast amount of legislation. He also said that after the next General Election their majority became a small one and they did not introduce any very highly controversial matters. He used that as his argument against the present Government's doing it. It is a strange argument. I cannot remember such an argument being used in 1924 by the Government, to which the right hon. Gentleman belonged, which had a minority in this House, and still less was it the argument in 1929 when the Labour Party again had a minority in the House, for on that occasion highly controversial Measures were introduced.
That argument will not do. It would mean that if the present position continued and we had election after election producing only small majorities, the country would have to be deprived of any progress whatsoever if there were fierce objection to any suggested Measure. I cannot possibly accept that argument. The House is entitled to consider all
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matters, controversial or not controversial.
To return to the use being made of the other place, in 1947 the Transport Bill, after being closured on Committee, on Report and on Third Reading in this House, went to the other place and use was made of the other place to the extent of the 240 Amendments which came back to us. The Town and Country Planning Bill was closured on its three stages and returned to us with 310 Amendments. The Steel Bill returned to us with 50 Amendments. So one could go on. Therefore, use is being made of the other place to an extent that I have never known before, and it is bad.
Bills should not be brought before the House until the most careful consideration has been given to them by the responsible Minister as a result of which he is prepared to deal with almost any matter which is raised at the time it is raised. I am afraid that rule has not been followed by Ministers for a considerable time, land now each side is accusing the other of mistakes, misleading the House, using time wrongfully and employing the Guillotine. It seems to me a case of the pot calling the kettle black; it is six of one and half a dozen of the other.
With regard to the present case, one does not like the Guillotine. I certainly do not like the Guillotine, and I voted against it the other night. I particularly did not like it in this case. One must accept Mr. Speaker's Ruling, and one does so loyally, but his Ruling about financial matters which are the privilege of this House put individual hon. Members in an awkward position. We may desire Amendment A which is a privilege Amendment, but we may dislike Amendment B intensely, and we should like to vote against Amendment B; but if we vote en bloc against the lot we may be voting against other things that we want.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Is not what the right hon. and learned Gentleman is now stating the issue that we are considering?
Mr. Davies: I will come to that in a moment. If the House is really anxious to straighten out the mistakes, the misuse of the time of the House and the misuse of the power of the Government, the debate will be of very great value.

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When in 1945 and 1946 we had a Committee considering the procedure of the House, the suggestion was made that Ministers should have their Bills ready in the summer the year before they were to become law. Presumably, a Minister would have to have his Bill ready by July and would bring it before the Cabinet during the last week when the Cabinet might make some proposals of its own, and the Minister would then have to have it completely ready by the end of September in time for the Speech from the Throne. The further suggestion was made that, between that time and Christmas, the House might take the Second Readings of Bills so that it might have regulated business before the House.
It is extraordinary how the House gets through any business at all. No one knows what the business for the following week will be. All we really know year after year is that some time in April we must have the Budget statement, but otherwise we do not really know what is to happen. In order to avoid an impassé such as we have now, there ought to be better regulation of the business of the House and more information should be given to hon. Members so that they may know where they are. Every individual hon. Member has his rights, and certainly the Opposition have their rights. On the other hand, it must also be remembered that the majority have their rights, because this House is governed by a majority. All that is required of the majority is that it should give adequate consideration to the views of the Opposition or the minority.
The burden falling upon the Leader of the House is always very heavy. He has to be firm and at the same time he must know when to give way. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South described himself as a good Parliamentarian. I do not believe there is a better Parliamentarian than the right hon. Gentleman. He has that quality or virtue of really loving the House, and he loves taking part in it. In all my experience, he was one of the best Leaders of the House that we have ever had. I am very sincere in paying this compliment which is so fully deserved. We must realise that the business of the House must be carried on, but at the same time it can always be carried on much better if full considera-
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tion is given and there is a little give-and-take on both sides.
The hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) again mentioned the phrase that it is the duty of the Opposition to oppose. I have always thought that a bad phrase and a bad slogan. He was not responsible for the invention of it, but he quoted it. It was invented by Lord Randolph Churchill, quoted by his son in his famous biography of him. It is the duty of the Opposition and of every Member of this House to regard themselves as part of the democratic Constitution of this country and to take part in carrying through the administration and the legislation of this country, but at the same time it is also part of their duty, if they feel they must criticise, to criticise boldly and criticise even fiercely, because that is the best way in which we can secure that the interests of the country will be protected.
I want to end on this note. If good is to come of this debate, if there is to be a better understanding for the working of this House, one will welcome the debate; but if there is only bickering and shouting across at one another, and accusing of one another, it will not carry us very far. I wish the Motion had not been put down. However, it has been put down: it is being debate. When it has been debated, let us let it go at that.
6.11 p.m.
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: The right hon and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), like a decaying Mercutio, denounced a "plague on both our houses" with such impartiality that to the very last words of his speech it was impossible to detect into which Lobby, if either, his section of his party would go tonight. He did, I thought, overlook, in his criticism of the measure which was taken last week in putting the Lords Amendments en bloc, the fact pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) that there was clear reason to believe that none of the Amendments in question was objected to by the Opposition, as none had been voted against by the Opposition in another place. That fact does place, I suggest to him, the whole question of the putting of those Amendments en bloc in a different light.

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I have often reflected upon the bewilderment which a stranger attending our proceedings must feel sometimes in understanding the purport of them and in relating cause to effect. If there were such a person present at our deliberations tonight—of course, I know there cannot be, as strangers are excluded from our debates—he would see reference in this censure Motion to the "spirit of the Constitution," the "privileges of the Commons," and the "legislative status of this House."
Seeing a Motion in such form and in such portentous terms, bearing the names of the Leader of the Opposition and of other distinguished Members of the Opposition Front Bench, he could not but assume that there had been some convulsion in the State, and that a tremendous innovation designed to force through something repugnant to hon. Members opposite had been made by the Government. He could not possibly, without inner knowledge, be aware of the simple and, indeed, trivial origin of the debate which is taking place tonight.
It arose from a little tantrum on the part of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) who, finding on Thursday week last that his expectation of two further days' debate upon the Lords Amendments was narrowed to one, threatened the Government that they should not have their day. Then he said on 27th April:
"Instead of making a profit out of their Motion, believe me, the Government will make a loss. The Government … will not save the day that they think they will save."— [OFFICIAL REP0RT, 27th April, 1953; Vol. 514, c 1811 and 1813.]
For that reason this Motion was put down as a censure Motion in order that one more day should be lost out of Government time to make up for the day of which the Opposition, to their discomfiture, were defrauded by the reduction of the time on the Lords Amendments from five days to four. [HON. MEMBERS: "Defrauded?"] We will examine how far this was a fraud at all or a justifiable move.
Was it necessary—this is really the simple question into which this whole debate resolves itself—was it necessary that five days, including two late sittings and one all-night sitting, should be spent upon the consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill? The
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Opposition have admitted themselves by their actions on two occasions in this House that it was not. Before Easter, when it was announced that one day would be set apart for the consideration of those Amendments, no one on the opposite side at the appropriate time demurred at all. It may be said, and said truly, that at that time the Amendments themselves had not on paper arrived in this House. That is perfectly true.
Mr. Paget: They had not been made.
Mr. Powell: The Amendments had nearly all been made in another place; but I admit that they had not at that time arrived in this House. It may, therefore, be said that the Opposition was at that time unaware of their extent and, therefore, considered that only one day was necessary because of a misunderstanding.
However, that explanation can no longer be given when we come to the first week after the Easter Recess when the Government offered, in the announcement of business, to provide two days to deal with the whole of the Lords Amendments and the Opposition Amendments thereto which had been put on the Paper. On that occasion, that normal occasion for making representations on the allocation of time, not a single word of criticism was advanced from the benches opposite. The benches opposite have given away their entire case. They had three weeks to consider the Lords Amendments. If they thought two days was not adequate time, that was their occasion for saying so. They did not take it. They are estopped by their own action.
Let us see what happened when the debate began, this debate which the Opposition had considered could reasonably be concluded in two Parliamentary days. During the three days before the Guillotine Motion was brought in, 14 Lords Amendments were disposed of. I think it is worth the while of the House to look in some detail at those Lords Amendments, because by comparing their nature with the time that was spent in disposing of them the House can come to a judgment whether the term "filibustering" is or is not fairly applicable to the behaviour of the Opposition.
Those 14 Lords Amendments which were disposed of in the three days of debate before the introduction of the Guillotine Motion resolve themselves in

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reality into 11 Amendments, since three were pairs hanging together. Of those 11 Amendments four were purely drafting. We are, therefore, reduced to seven Amendments of any substance whatsoever, which were dealt with in three Parliamentary days, including an all-night sitting.
Here are the seven points covered by those seven Amendments. The first was that there should be no obligation on the Transport Commission to dispose of money or monetary claims. The Opposition agreed to that. No hon. Member opposite argued that there should be such an obligation upon the Commission. Yet they showed their agreement with that Lords Amendment by spending two hours in debating it and by voting against it.
The next was that the report of the Disposal Board should include Ministerial directions. Every hon. Member opposite agreed to that. Every hon. Member wanted it. The next was that the anti-monopoly Clause, if I may so describe it, should be rephrased. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) specifically agreed with the rephrasing of that particular Clause and expressed his preference for it over the original formulation.
Then we come to two points: the increase of the maximum number of vehicles the Commission can retain, and the increase of flexibility in choosing the types of those vehicles. These were actually conceded in response to the demand of the Opposition; they were direct concessions to their point of view. That disposes of five of the seven points which occupied this House three days, including an all-night sitting.
Then there was a limit on the amount of information to be given in the Commission's annual report about companies under its control. That again was a point which the Opposition had asked for, and with which they were in agreement. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Well they said they were.
So we come finally to the last of the seven Amendments, that upon which 18½ hours were spent. This was the new Clause designed to meet the representations which had been made on both sides of the House for an additional method of disposal to be written into the Bill. It
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had been discussed for hours in Committee and on Report stage in this House; agreement as to its desirability had been brought to an advanced point. Yet 18½ hours were taken in discussing it, largely by re-opening, in the course of the debate, the whole substance and content of the Bill as such.
When we consider that the first three of these four days of debate on the Lords Amendments were spent in discussing seven points with every one of which the Opposition were in agreement, and only one of which was of major substance, I think it is difficult to conclude that there was not perhaps some obstruction going one somewhere.
Mr. Callaghan: Would the hon. Gentleman now go on to tell us how many Opposition Amendments to the Lords Amendments were discussed at the same time, to give us a complete picture?
Mr. Powell: Of course, it is always possible for an Opposition bent upon obstruction to put down an almost unlimited number of Amendments to Lords Amendments. But that is a quite different matter. When this House parts with a Measure it is supposed to have spoken its mind upon it; the Opposition have had their opportunity then to put down their Amendments.
Mr. Callaghan: Under a Guillotine. That is the point.
Mr. Powell: The points which the Lords Amendments were designed to meet were points which had been fully discussed in this House, even under a Guillotine.
Mr. Callaghan: No.
Mr. Powell: Well, I shall come to that. I have demonstrated it in the case of the 14 Amendments which were discussed in the first three days.
Now what description of this procedure was given by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)?
Mr. Callaghan: Will the hon. Gentleman not complete his picture? He has not given us the whole story by telling us how many Opposition Amendments to the Lords Amendments—which were accepted by the Chair and, therefore, presumably, were in order and worthy of discussion—were discussed in relation to the 11 he has mentioned.
Mr. Powell: If the hon. Gentleman is arguing that Amendments which are in order and are called by the Chair cannot be obstructive he is denying altogether, for practical purposes, the possibility of obstruction.
Mr. Callaghan: How many?
Mr. Powell: In referring to these Lords Amendments, 14 of which were discussed in three days, and with all of which the Opposition agreed, the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale said:
"What is to prevent a Conservative Minister normally doing what has been done in the Transport Bill"—
this is what the right hon. Gentleman claimed had been done in the Transport Bill—
"that is deliberately leaving out great chunks of the Bill from discussion in the House of Commons, putting them in in the House of Lords, and then applying the Guillotine here, thus preventing the Commons from discussing them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd April, 1953; Vol. 514, c. 1958.]
I have looked with great care through the whole range of Amendments which came down to this House from another place and I can find in them at most only three subjects which had not been discussed already in this House in Committee or on Report. So far from the Lords having been used to deal with matters which had not been discussed in this House, they were in fact used to insert in the Bill alterations upon which this House was agreed—alterations which in many cases had been demanded by the Opposition and conceded to them.
I confess that if I were framing a censure Motion in the place of the Opposition, instead of saying that the action of my right hon. Friends had conferred legislative initiative upon another place I should use the expression of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South and say that our procedure had tended to reduce them to "legislative stooges"— that was his expression—in that they had been used to put in Amendments which had been agreed, not merely in principle, but in detail before the Bill left this House. On that score there may be some ground of complaint. There can be none on the ground that the Lords introduced major Amendments on subjects which had not been discussed here.
I remember that there used to be a pair of comedians who ended every act
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with a kind of colophon, in which the words occurred "It's all meant as chaff." I think that might well apply to this Motion of censure. It is not really meant seriously by the Opposition. Witness the thin attendance and complete lack of any enthusiasm on their part which has marked this debate. It is merely the working off of a little petty spite which was incurred that evening a week ago last Thursday. I hope that the House will treat it in that lighthearted mood and dismiss it with the contempt which it deserves.
I believe that Parliament and this House consults its dignity most, and preserves its own rights and privileges and the spirit of the Constitution best, when it talks least about them. I deplore this Motion because it has dragged terms which are serious, and indeed sacred, into a matter of petty squabble and personal vindictiveness.
6.28 p.m.
Mr. R. T. Paget: The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has emulated, without succeeding in equalling, the contempt for Parliament displayed by the Leader of the House. He has also shown a certain contempt for accuracy and ignorance of House of Lords procedure. For example, he proceeded to say that because the Labour Party in the House of Lords had not voted against certain Clauses at the Committee stage, it must therefore be assumed that the Labour Party in this House was not opposed to those Clauses. If he were more familiar with the procedure of another place he would know that the Opposition there divides very rarely on Committee points on a Bill, because otherwise their Lordships' whole time would be spent in the Division Lobbies. It is no indication at all that the matter is accepted by the Opposition in this House.
Mr. Powell: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman say whether any of the Lords Amendments which came down here were objected to by the Opposition in the other place, even without a Division?
Mr. Paget: That is not what the hon. Gentleman said. If he wants to shift his ground, the answer is that some were and some were not.
Now we come to his next point, that we were not serious in wanting more than

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two days because we did not object when we were told that two days in the succeeding week would be devoted to the Committee stage of this Bill. Does the hon. Gentleman expect us to object when, probably in the week after next, we are told that two or three days will be devoted to the Committee stage of the Finance Bill? Have we to get up and ask the Government to explain and to say that it is monstrous only to give two or three days to the Committee stage of the Finance Bill? When business is announced and a Committee stage is mentioned, that does not mean that that is all the time that is to be devoted to the Committee stage.
Here we had a massive new Bill coming to this House, because the Lords Amendments were larger than the vast majority of new Bills which come to this House. They were detailed proposals which had not been considered at all by anybody. The discussion on them it is now sought to pretend was obstruction. Those in charge of the Bill at the time agreed at numerous points on the Committee stage that it had been a serious discussion and not obstruction. The hon. Gentleman now tries to make out that this was obstruction because we averaged rather less than 1½ hours per Amendment discussed. If he will look back at Finance Bills introduced into this House when a Labour Government were in power, I should be very surprised if he found a single day upon which the average time taken by Amendments was as short as that. If ever there was a bogus charge, surely this charge that this was forced upon the Government by obstruction is about the most bogus.
The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House was more frivolous and more startling in his arguments because he seemed to complain about our failure to take Government time in order to consider censures on other failures of Government policy. For instance, he seemed to complain of the fact that we had censured the Government in the economic debate, instead of on a special day, by reason of the fact that, owing to the incompetence of their financial and economic policy, the production of this country had fallen for the first time since the war. That was the complaint.
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He complained that we had chosen other and more convenient times to censure the Government for allowing exports to fall, again for the first time since the war. He complained that we had chosen other and more suitable occasions to censure the Government for the failure to carry out a defence programme to which they were pledged not only to our people but to our allies, and which they unilaterally threw over. The fact that we chose a convenient time to censure them on that is apparently the cause of complaint.
The fact that when we used more convenient time to censure them for having run down all the stocks provided in this country for defence purposes, as well as during the naval debate when they were forced to admit that they were utterly incapable of keeping our sea lanes open, so that we should starve during the early stages of a war—on all these grounds of censure, the fact that we chose a more convenient time is made a cause of complaint.
The Government choose two specific instances with which to charge us with obstruction. The first of these was in regard to the Army Act. The right hon. Gentleman read out the amount of time that we had taken on the Army Act. I should like to ask him a question with regard to that. Did the Army Act need amendment? I will willingly give way if the right hon. Gentleman wants to reply. Did it need amendment from top to bottom? I will remind him of what happened. He is not very often here, so he has probably forgotten.
Mr. Angus Maude: Absolute nonsense.
Mr. Paget: He seems to like this House just about as little as we like him. He is not a very good Leader of the House. He is here very seldom, and I should like to ask him a question or two about what happened in that Army Act debate in regard to which he is blaming us of obstruction.
The first Amendment we put down was to extend the period of that Act to the end of July, so that this year there would be adequate time for reforming that Act. That Amendment, which proposed to provide the machinery after a Select Committee had reported, was to the effect

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that adequate time should be made available to provide us with an up-to-date Army Act. It was resisted by the Government for a whole day. We then proceeded to continue with the various Amendments which we proposed, as we had to propose them without the assistance of a Select Committee.
Having done that for some days, the Government at last saw what we had been talking about the first day, and they came back to us and offered us the proposal for which we had asked on the first day. They set up the Select Committee which is now in the process of recommending the complete re-writing of the Army Act. That is where he accused us of wasting time. That which everyone agrees was immensely desirable and that which is now accepted was offered to him on the first day and he would have had it within an hour.
Mr. Maude: Has it not yet struck the hon. and learned Gentleman that the reason we objected to the procedure of his hon. Friends on the Army Act was that after six years of Labour Government, in any one year of which they could have done this thing instead of producing the Act in the same words every year, they chose their first year in opposition, when they were looking round for excuses to waste time, to take several days over it?
Mr. Paget: The hon. Gentleman's complaint, then, is that after six years of incompetent opposition the country got an efficient Opposition. It is for the Opposition to point out where faulty legislation has brought this House. When faulty legislation is brought before this House, we ought to be quick in pointing it out and showing the way to put it right, and that right way was accepted by the Government after wasting four days' time. Now we are engaged in doing that job properly.
The other case in which complaint is made about wasting time is the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. There are certain Measures which Parliament has in the past considered as being of a dangerous character, and the operation of which Parliament should consider annually. Is Parliament doing its job if it does not do that—the job which has been given it by the law and which it is the will of Parlia-
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ment it shall perform? Is it really unreasonable that we should give on an average less than one hour apiece to considering these important laws? That is the complaint. I see that the right hon. Gentleman has now retired. Let us consider some of these Acts which we consider under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.
Hon. Members may or may not have noticed, but the other day two girls were sent to prison for signing their names in a hotel register with the prefix "Mrs." instead of "Miss." The question whether fornication should or should not be a criminal offence is obviously a matter of great social importance, but this was introduced by a side-wind as a regulation to control aliens. That was one of the expiring laws which it was our duty to consider, and which it will be our duty to consider again next year, as to whether control of aliens should be an excuse for that sort of action and that sort of legislation. If these things are not done properly, Parliament is not doing its duty and we as an Opposition are not doing our duty. That is what I wanted to say with regard to the speech of the Leader of the House.
Mr. Callaghan: Will not my hon. and learned Friend refer also to the fact that during a debate on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill in connection with the 30 miles an hour speed limit, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport was able to give the House an assurance that he intended to introduce legislation during the next Session to deal with some of the points that we raised in the debate?
Mr. Paget: Precisely. The whole complaint which has been directed against the Opposition is that the Opposition has done its job of being vigilant on behalf of the public to examine the matters which it is its duty to examine. But there has not been time for Parliament to do that job, because a Government without a working majority, which cannot send its legislation upstairs to Committee, has occupied the time of the House with the Committee stages of controversial legislation instead of allowing the House to do its duty and allowing the Opposition to carry out its duty of examining those things which come before the House. That is the basis of this whole trouble.
I drew attention to this in a letter which I wrote to "The Times" over a year ago.

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I then pointed out that if a Government without a working majority—by which I mean a Government which cannot send its controversial legislation to a Committee upstairs—seeks to force through legislation, it can only do so at the price of destroying Parliament as a legislative body. That is, broadly speaking, what has happened here, precisely as I foresaw that it would.
These things could be done, but only at the price of the destruction of Parliament. Government has become progressively stronger. Through the crystallisation of the party system, the steady tightening up of party discipline and the functioning of the Whip, Government can more and more assert its will in defiance of the House and in defiance of the general feeling in the House. The Government can say to the House, as they did on the Guillotine Motion with regard to the Lords Amendments, "You shut your mouth. We do not want to hear from you about this. This is Government legislation. We are not going to hear what you are going to say about it and we do not care." That is in substance what is said here, and that is what the Government can say.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Would the hon. and learned Member also say that the mouth stayed open for 39 hours?
Mr. Paget: The mouth stayed open for 39 hours and the work still was not done, or even nearly done. The Government were strong enough to say, "We do not wish to hear Parliament's views on this." That is what happened to the Bill. I do not put this in terms of a conflict between the two Houses; that is merely the form which it takes. The real conflict is between this House as a legislative body and Government.
Here we have a Bill brought forward on a Guillotine, introduced before the Bill was ever brought to the House, allowing time which right at the start nobody on the Government benches ever suggested was adequate. Nobody ever suggested that the time allocated by the original Guillotine was adequate for discussion. Discussion was not required or asked for. The Bill was then brought here. It was not a very good Bill and the Government had second thoughts. They found that a Committee stage was
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necessary, whether they had it here or somewhere else. The Committee stage of the Bill in fact took place, not here, not in the House of Lords, but in the Ministry. Then there was what amounted to a Committee stage and a re-casting of the Bill within the Ministry. It was then simply brought to the House of Lords, where it was duly stamped—that is really all that it amounted to—and it came down here. Never in the whole history of Parliament has a Bill been so exclusively the work of Government. Never has Parliament been so wholly excluded from the formation of a Measure as it went along.
The great thing here is that once any Government sets a precedent of taking power away from Parliament because Parliament is inconvenient to Government —and it always will be inconvenient to Government—every other Government will seize that precedent. More and more we shall have Bills, and it will occur when I am sitting on the other side of the House just as much as when I am sitting over here, because all Governments, of either party, will follow that precedent. Whatever happens with regard to it, once the precedent of Government doing without Parliament is established, that precedent will be followed.
As the legislative function is taken away from Parliament, as Parliament ceases to have the creative function of moulding legislation, it will be left with only the critical function. And a Parliament left only with the critical function becomes progressively more and more irresponsible. That has been experienced in many parts of the world. I hope very much indeed that this does not occur again. I hope that the Government have learnt their lesson and that in future our job of moulding legislation will be preserved to us, because it will be a very great injury to the institutions of this country if that is taken away from Parliament.
6.50 p.m.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: When the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) says that the Opposition has not had time to discharge its full duties, I think he really means that he has not had time completely to exhaust the patience of Parliament to listen to him. It has been my

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humble and painful duty to have to sit here day after day and night after night in the last 18 months, listening to the hon. and learned Member, the Son. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) and others developing precisely the techniques of this science of—it has now become a Parliamentary expression—obstruction and filibustering which have brought on this crisis in the last week and compelled the putting down of this Motion of censure.
Fortunately, I have tried, and to some extent have been able, to develop a certain aptitude for avoiding the full impact of the eloquence of the Members concerned, and that may be the reason why I do not take up, point by point, what the hon. and learned Member has just been saying. When the organ is siphoning in church it is possible to develop a kind of technique of closing the brain to it and still hearing the choir behind and observing what is going on. When one's radio set is heterodyning—I think that is the term—it is possible to develop a technique of closing one's mind to it and listening to the orchestral concert which one wants to hear. That has become the form and practice of most of us on this side of the House by now.
I thought that the speech of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) today, and his whole attitude to this debate, was studiously loose in phraseology. While I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) that it is to some extent monstrous to import into a debate of this kind these fierce and urgent terms of State and law which the right hon. Gentleman used, I think that the right hon. Gentleman really meant no harm thereby. He was just having a little joke. He was filling up a few hours so as to be able to go to his party, to Transport House and to the country and be able to say, "Well, we won the day in the end. They had to give us the full time we originally asked for." No doubt Mr. Morgan Phillips and others have deliberately asked for this to be done so that inquiring voters in the country could be satisfied.
Mr. M. Turner-Samuels: When the noble Lord talks about exaggeration, would he remember that his hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West used words like
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"convulsion" and "fraud," which, to my mind, seem most exaggerated?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: My hon Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West is quite capable of looking after himself. I have no need to defend him.
There is another element in this situation which the House has forgotten. I refer to the person of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan). I have been watching the development of these events over the last few weeks, and I think that Mr. Morgan Phillips has had his share in it. It may be that in the constituencies there has been some inquiry why there was not more opposition on the Transport Bill. But it seems to me that the real author of these proceedings is the hon. Member, During the short Easter Recess he was in the United States, attending a conference of young persons. No doubt his junketing about with the exuberant youths and maidens in a college of bobbysoxers really got him going.
Mr. Callaghan: I entertain very warm feelings for the noble Lord, and I beg him not to use the term "junketeering." It has already been the cause of one American being called before the un-American Activities Committee to justify the words "junketeering gumshoes."
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I used the word "junketing," which is a much milder expression and much more like the pudding which it partially describes. The hon. Member, blown across the Atlantic by fresh breezes from the West, sprang into action the moment he returned, and spurred on his right hon. Friend and others really to get going with the Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill. I place the authorship of these proceedings firmly in the hands of the hon. Member.
I wish to refer to the point of order which was put by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South on 27th April, and reported in c. 1779 of HANSARD, and to which the right hon. Gentleman again referred today in his speech. The substance of that point of order was briefly that all the important Privilege Amendments were held up and not discussed in consequence of the Guillotine. But the Guillotine took only two hours and there were four clear hours of debate after that.

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and it was perfectly open to the Opposition to get on to the Amendments which the right hon. Gentleman said they could not reach—on page 7 of the Lords Amendments, the Amendment in page 15, line 34, and others.
They could easily have short-circuited the discussion on some of the Amendments which they had down, and which I shall show in a moment we had already discussed in Committee here, and could have gone at once to the highly important Amendments involving Privilege which they wanted to bring before the House of Commons. Instead of that, they took the whole four hours that subsequently ensued on one single Amendment—new Clause "A," and that was after four hours had been spent on the principles of the Clause on the Report stage of the Bill.
Mr. Ernest Poppkwell(Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West): I am sure that the noble Lord wants to be honest with the House. He must surely agree that the discussion then taking place was on Amendments to a very comprehensive new Clause that imported a fundamental alteration of principle into the Bill itself. There were parts of that new Clause, to which in particular the discussion to which the noble Lord has referred took place relating to the establishment of company structures for the disposal of certain assets. Those company structures were not included in the Bill as it left the House.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I am quite aware of that, but the point I am making is that the principle of that Clause had been discussed for at least four hours on Report, and previous to that in Committee: and if the question of the Privilege of this House against Lords Amendments was the really vital point it was open to the Opposition to pass over this series of Amendments and to dwell exclusively on the Amendments of principle which they sought to raise. They never did anything of the kind.
Mr. Popplewell: I suggest that it was a very important Clause.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I will, if I may, Mr. Speaker, interlard this speech with a submission to you. I should like to refer to page 557 of Erskine May,
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where the procedure upon Lords Amendments is laid down. It is there stated that:
"The debate on this motion"—
that is, "That this House doth agree— or disagree—with the Lords in the said Amendment"—
"must be confined to the Amendment under consideration, and may not extend to other Amendments … or to the general merits of the Bill."
It is part of our complaint on this side of the House that for so long during the passage of these Lords Amendments the principles of the Bill were again under discussion, and that time and time again hon. Gentlemen wasted time and failed in their proper duty of examination by dwelling over-long on the principles which had been previously discussed. If it is no discourtesy to you, Sir, and it is no physical upset to your present position, I would say that the Chair leaned over backwards in acceding to the mood and temper of the Opposition in bringing up, on these Amendments, the principles which, by the terms of Erskine May, they ought never have been allowed to discuss.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that the noble Lord is not criticising the action of the Chair during those discussions. As a matter of fact, by the strict rules of order, it was difficult to exclude matters on some of the Amendments which raised, for example, the question of the big or the small unit in transport. It was difficult to say that those things were irrelevant to the discussion and I have to abide, like every other hon. Member, by the rules of order.
Hon. Members: Apologise.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I had not intended to provoke any rebuke from you, Sir. I do not think it is an impertinence for me to say that I think you acted with great deference to the Opposition—[HON. MEMBERS: "The House."]—in their desire to bring their points before the House.
What is there in this charge that has been made against us, that we are ultimately responsible for all this obstruction? I have some figures which I shall give briefly to the House about the action of the respective Oppositions in the Parliaments of 1950 and 1951 and the present one. Let me preface that, however, by saying that it has been

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suggested at times that we provoked the present tactics by our activities on Prayers late at night in a previous Parliament. At no time did we in that Parliament obstruct Government business. The only thing we did was to carry on until fairly late at night on Prayers. We did not in the least degree interrupt the Government's programme.
When this Parliament began we had expected the same kind of consideration from the Opposition. Indeed, the Leader of the Opposition went very far in the Gracious Speech on 6th November, 1951 —much farther than my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 6th March, 1950. He said:
"I want to say a word on the attitude of the Opposition. The Opposition will be vigilant, but not factious. We shall not oppose merely for the sake of opposition, but where we think that the Government are acting contrary to the interests of the country we shall offer our stoutest opposition."
I make no complaint of that. It is the next words that matter:
"I am very grateful for the many tributes which have been paid to the Labour Party in the Press, because the Press expect a much higher standard of public service from Socialists than they do from Conservatives. They suggest that it would be quite wrong for anyone in this House to indulge now in the kind of tactics which were indulged in during the last Parliament. They expect something altogether better from us, and they are quite right."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th November, 1951; Vol. 493, c. 67.]
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I am amazed that hon. Gentlemen opposite should have the audacity to cheer. It appears to me, if words mean anything at all, that the Leader of the Opposition was endeavouring to lead his followers into a more strictly sober and constitutional position than he thought we had adopted. Contrary to that, they have greatly exceeded in scope, range, polemics and in their attempts at political obstruction, anything we did previously.
Let us look at the facts. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton talked about the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude) dealt effectively with that point. Let me give the figures. In the 1950 Session of Parliament the Second Reading went through on the nod, the Committee and Report and Third Reading stages took one and a
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half hours. In the 1951 Session the Second Reading went through on the nod, the Committee stage, Report and Third Reading took two hours. Then we reached the beginning of these obstructionist tactics in the present Parliament and the Second Reading took 40 minutes, the first day took three and a half hours and then again after 10 o'clock until 3 a.m. The second day took four hours to 2 a.m. The third day took four hours to 2 a.m. and the Report and Third Reading one hour. That is a total of 17½ hours, or nearly five times the amount of time that we consumed.
Mr. Paget: Is the noble Lord suggesting that it was in the power of Opposition to get the Army Bill in any less time? The Government could have surrendered to what we asked on the first day; they had to surrender on the fourth.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The hon. and learned Gentleman has already made that point, which has been dealt with by my hon. Friend. The short answer is that they had six years when they were in office to introduce a correctly framed Bill.
There are some significant differences in the handling of the Finance Bill. I will not go through the whole gamut of differences, but will give them briefly. In the 1950 Session of Parliament a total of eight and a half days was spent, plus the equivalent of two days in late night Sittings, which was 10½ normal days in all. In the 1951 Session of Parliament a total of 11½ days was spent, plus the equivalent of five days in all-night Sittings, or a total of 16½ normal days. That averages, for two Sessions, 13½ days. That was our Opposition to the Socialist Government in those two periods. In the 1952 Session of the present Parliament a total of 14½ days was spent, plus the equivalent of three days and an all-night Sitting, a total of 17½ days. So that there is a difference of four days—four days to the disadvantage of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Let us look at the contrary situation when reasonableness prevails, as it did over the Iron and Steel Bill and when a very different technique was adopted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) and his hon. Friends. On the Iron and Steel Bill in the 1952–53 Session a total of 14 days was spent. Let us face that directly,

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as it had to be faced, with the Transport Bill and show the difference. The Transport Bill in the 1952–53 Session, with the Allocation of Time Order on the Lords Amendments, occupied in all 20½ days. So that 14 days can be spent upon an important Bill when the Opposition exert their due and proper rights of Opposition, but it can be expanded to 20½ days when they choose to use obstruction.
Mr. Callaghan: Does this not go to show the folly of putting on a Guillotine Motion in advance of any discussion and without regard to the temper of the House?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The hon. Gentleman is directing his question to my right hon. Friend and no doubt he will answer it at the end of the debate. It is not a question for me.
If I might say one more thing about the Transport Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) has pointed out that the Labour Party, in the previous Government, divided against many of their Amendments and that lends point to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South was suggesting earlier, namely, that we have a nice liaison on our side of the House between our Members here and those in another place. I do not know whether that exists, but what quite clearly is evidenced is the absence of any liaison between the leaders of the Socialist Party in this House and their leaders in another place. One would have thought that the Lords would have staged a dress rehearsal for the Labour Party action in the Commons on receiving the Lords Amendments by at least raising the curtain in the other place and starting a voting procedure.
Another place sent us 71 Amendments, of which 12 were of substance and three of them were not discussed, these being the discretion to the licensing authorities in using charges as a criterion for granting licences, the release of former road haulage operators from covenants with the Commission not to re-enter the industry, and the decentralisation of accounts to the new railway areas to show operating costs and statistics. It might be noted in passing by my right hon. Friend that that last Amendment was one for which this side of the House
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greatly cared and we should have liked them to be fully discussed.
There was no disposition on the part of the Opposition to hurry on with the Amendments, just as in the case of the Privilege Amendments. If the Opposition had wanted to they could have discussed them, but they did nothing about it and chose to spend the whole time on new Clause A. Up to 11 p.m. on 23rd April, which was the evening of the Guillotine, they had taken 28½ hours discussing 39 of their 66 Amendments, which covered only 14 of the Lords 71 Amendments. If that is not filibustering I simply do not know what is. It is filibustering of such an order as to make our "Prayerful" activities during the 1951 Parliament seem like a child's efforts at its mother's knee.
What I now have to say, will I feel, be controversial. The one thing that I desire least is to accede to the fate which awaits me in due course. I regard it as a high honour to be elected to this present House, and I should like to stay here for the rest of my days if I possibly could. Nevertheless, I congratulate the Government upon giving the other place so much urgent and important business to attend to.
I regard this in a completely different light from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. I was astonished at some of the observations which fell from the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies). He said that it is wrong for the Government so to shape its events that another place has work to do. What is that but an argument for uni-cameral legislation? We do not stand for uni-cameral legislation. The only way to get out of it is to see that the House of Lords has a job of work, has some Amendments to discuss, and can initiate proceedings. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are caught in a complex of their own devising. They cannot have it both ways. If they want to preserve the Constitution and a bicameral system, they are driven to allow any Government of the day to steer part of its proposals and part of its legislation through another place.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South said the Labour Party were going for a single chamber Government. So he is if he limits the

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power of another place to do a job of work. I regard these attempts on the part of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to whittle down the existing powers of another place as old-fashioned stuff now. The sentiment of the public and the country has passed the period of wishing to see the powers and responsibilities of another place further reduced.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South talked today as if he were upholding constitutional rights against ancient privilege and ancient power. He talked as if the Lords still had their full period of delaying powers which they had before the Parliament Act of 1911, and still had their full rights over money. There has been an enormous public reaction to the successful work of the Radicals and Socialists over the past 50 years, and I believe that public appreciation of the powers and standing of another place is increasing.
Every time when, in the small hours, we cry "stinking fish" in this House and demean our position we lower our dignity, whereas the dignity and standing of another place remains where it was. Do not let us forget that in the judgment of the people both Houses are weighed up at moments of time, and when hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite demean our authority here by the kind of tactics which they have pursued over the last 18 months they are putting off still further the realisation of their ultimate end of abolishing the House of Lords.
Dr. H. Morgan: The noble Lord should read the speeches of his present leaders in the House of Lords.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are not really ranged against the power of the House of Lords at this moment. They are actually ranged against a Government party in this House which, up to a point, is prepared to defend those powers. We have now got a majority in this Chamber which is not prepared to enforce its privileges against a weakened House of Lords. That is the significant thing. We have a majority in this House for waiving the privileges which this House might otherwise wish to exert. I believe that after a General Election we may have a majority not only for waiving the
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spurious rights of privilege which have been raised by the Opposition, but for reforming the composition and re-establishing some at least of the traditional and ancient powers of another place.
7.18 p.m.
Mr. M. Turner-Samuels: The noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) referred at the commencement of his speech to the boredom to which he had been subjected by the speeches made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). In the kindest way possible, I can only say that the noble Lord himself made a most wearisome speech, an utterance which at every stage sought to avoid the main issue before the House. I am sure we were all touched by the expectant way in which he referred to another place. No doubt he sees that looming not too far in the distance, and one can understand that, being in this House, he has some feeling of generosity and flexibility about the power of another place which we are debating today.
We shall not get very far in this debate by merely being angry and aggressive and throwing uncomplimentary remarks from one side of the House to the other. If any good is to be derived from the debate on this Motion, it can only be done by a consideration of the real issue in this matter. I think the real issue is whether law has been made in another place and the House of Commons has been gagged and not allowed to say a word on it. That seems to be the issue here, not the matters to which in the main we have listened, from both sides, as to what was done by this House in the past, how time was wasted and so on. The grave issue, in my submission, is the one I have just mentioned.
In conjunction with that issue there has to be considered the fact that this particular legislation, the Lords Amendments, was passed in an hereditary and non-elective Chamber, and if I am right, the House of Commons was given no opportunity to discuss it. That becomes a very important element in this matter because, being a non-elected House, being a House which at the time in question was composed of a very small number of privileged people, the idea that they should be allowed to pass legislation

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without the House of Commons having an opportunity to accept and debate it must obviously be quite wrong.
How it can be suggested I do not know, but it has been suggested that all the matters embodied in the Lords Amendments were discussed in this House at the Report stage. That is purely a wild statement. Anyone who cares to look at the Lords Amendments will see that they contain entirely original and new legislation, in a form in which it certainly was not in the Bill concerned when it left this House. I need only refer to the new Schedule "A," the new Clause "A," the provisions relating to the Transport Tribunal, the provisions referring to the issue of licences, the total number of "A" licences and also the abrogation of the rights of the Transport Commission and companies controlled by them.
All those are first-class matters of substance referring to a vital service affecting the public interest. To say that all those matters had already been discussed in this House and therefore they could be shelved when they came here from the Lords is not taking a responsible view of this matter at all. On the basis that the Lords Amendments were not part of the House of Commons Bill, which I do not think can be denied, the action of the Government in regard to the Guillotine in this House afterwards was manifestly wrong and untenable. What happened was that the Government slipped into a very grievous error.
I must say that I do not hold the view which I know quite a number of hon. Members on this side of the House hold about the Leader of the House. I have always found him a very friendly and reasonable individual; but I think he has let the House down badly in this matter. I do not think he intended to do so, except that I have a suspicion that this whole thing has arisen out of pique and nothing else. I think he allowed himself to be persuaded to do what he did because he thought too much time was being taken up by one Amendment. He allowed himself to be rushed into this and did what in my humble opinion was an injury to this House.
I must say to the Leader of the House that the Chief Whip is not a very safe guide or a very sound philosopher, and
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certainly is not a friend when it comes to protecting the privileges of this House. Actually the Chief Whip is concerned with the political generalship of his side, but the Leader of the House has a much broader function to perform here. It is perfectly true that he is a politician and a partisan, but he occupies a high office of authority in this Chamber. His responsibility is to protect the privileges and rights of every hon. Member in this House. The complaint I make about him on this occasion is that he has failed to do so.
If these Lords Amendments were new and additional legislation, a fact which cannot be denied, it is perfectly clear that, unless the House could have an opportunity to debate them, it was bound to mean that these measures and laws were being passed over the heads of the House of Commons. That is an irresistible conclusion. No one can deny that they were important Amendments. Again and again, during the earlier debate, I heard from both sides of the House that they were complicated and crucial Amendments. Certainly I think it cannot be denied that the Amendments to the Lords Amendments were also of considerable importance.
All that body of legislation was either refused debate and summarily rejected, or forced and foisted on the country, and the House of Commons was not allowed to say a word on it. That to my mind is the crucial and grave issue here. If that is right, it means that we have arrived at a very serious position. It means that a Tory Government can arrogate to itself the right to create law by using an hereditary and privileged class to make far-reaching changes in House of Commons Bills by gagging the House of Commons.
It is no use the Leader of the House complaining about what happened over one Amendment here; that is not the issue. That does not justify him in stifling the House of Commons over another 60 Amendments. I am concerned about what was done, not on a partisan or political basis, but on a constitutional basis, and I say that it was a shocking abuse of power by the Government.
The Government put forward the defence that time was being wasted. They say that on this side of the House we wasted time. If that were true, I cer-

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tainly would have sympathy for the Government on that score, but is it a defence to the charge in the Motion to say that the Government thought that time was being wasted? No doubt they wanted to get their legislation through, but they certainly had one duty to keep in mind. It was their duty not to stifle the House of Commons on every other Amendment and not to propose a Guillotine which was to come down globally on the whole of what was left. Their plain duty was to make a proposal whereby there would be an allocation of time, limited if necessary, for every one of the other Amendments. How can anyone in this House excuse a deliberate arrangement forced through by the Government that almost 60 Amendments should not be allowed to be debated, Amendments not initiated in this House, but laws and legislation passed by another Chamber, an hereditary and non-elective Chamber? As I say, all that was forced and foisted upon the country without this House being able to say a word.
If the Government are complaining about the abuse of time, then it was perfectly simple for them—and I would not have blamed them if they had done so— so to arrange the timing of their machinery in this House that every Amendment could be discussed. They say that we took two days, or whatever it was, over one Amendment. Surely that cannot be complained of constitutionally, because if it had been wrong it would not have been allowed by the Chair. It seems to me that the topics discussed must have been sufficiently broad and important to require the time that was taken in debating them.
In any case, if that is not so, and even if the Opposition were wrong or obstructive—and I do not admit that they were —it could not possibly justify, on any ground, the suppression of every other one of the Lords Amendments. The result is that the House of Commons has been prevented from debating new law which has been passed, not by the House of Commons, but by another place.
I want to say a word about the weight to be attached to that portion of the Bill which has been passed by the other place. It has not been mentioned, and it is an important matter which should be taken
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into account. We all know that the other Chamber is very poorly attended. That must of necessity affect the political weight of the decisions made in that other Chamber, especially when it comes to an important Bill such as the Transport Bill, affecting a vital public service. It is all the more necessary that any part of it which is to be passed should have close scrutiny and full debate by the House of Commons. Instead of that, it was passed by another place whose numbers are more comparable to a small committee than to a whole House. That is a fact that cannot be denied.
It cannot be gainsaid that the public are having put upon them vital legislation initiated and passed for the first time by an hereditary and non-elective Chamber with no mandate or authority from the electorate at all. and the House of Commons, who are the elected representatives of the electorate, are not allowed even to discuss that legislation. That, to my mind, is the vital issue here.
The House of Commons, which is the representative elected assembly of the people of this country, has been deprived of any judgment on these matters. It has not been able to state the views of the electorate whom its represents. That has been banned by the Guillotine which this Government has used and which can become a very formidable and dangerous instrument in the hands of a Tory Government.
The complaint was that there was too much debate. But was there? This was the undoing of legislation which had been created as a result of an overwhelming authority that had been vested in the hands of the Labour Government in 1945—a Government which had been sent here by a huge majority which was almost unprecedented and which was mandated to pass that very legislation. This present Government is a minority Government; it has a very narrow majority in this House and that is built upon a minority of votes in the country.
It is no use the Leader of the House animadverting, as he did, upon the observations of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) who said that when we were in office in 1950 we did not try to push controversial legislation through the House for the excellent and democratic reason, of which this Government should

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take note, that we did not feel that we had a mandate from the country; our vote in the country at the General Election was not strong enough to justify it.
But here it is not a question of passing legislation with a majority behind it; it is a question of a minority Government undoing legislation which had a large majority of the Electorate behind it. That in itself would be a serious state of affairs, but when the Government, in order to enforce that situation, use the power of another place which is undemocratic and non-elected, which represents a special class and a small section of the community, it becomes absolutely unjustifiable and a danger to the public and to the Constitution.
The Lords Amendments, as I have said, were not simple matters that could be brushed aside. It was very essential for the Government, if they intended to get the proceedings through within a certain time, at least to guarantee to the House that every one of those Amendments would have reasonable examination and discussion. Those Amendments dealt with very important matters. First of all, they dealt with valuable public property which was being transferred. They dealt with an important service, as I have already said and I do not want to go over that ground again. They dealt with matters that are vital to road safety, to the safety of life and limb. They touched upon questions relating to conditions and employment and, what is equally, if not more, important, probable loss of employment.
Those subjects are the concern of people who have sent us here to the House of Commons to represent them, to speak for them, to safeguard their rights, to try to shape legislation that is reasonably safe for them, and we have been denied the right to discuss any of those matters. The Government should hide their faces in shame at having brought the House of Commons into such contempt. [Laughter.] The Government Front Bench laugh, and they laugh because it is a great joke to them. If they can use another place in this novel way in order to push what they want through the House of Commons by gagging it, of course they can laugh at it; but the people in the country will not laugh at it, and we as Members of Parliament who
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are trying to do our honest duty are not prepared to laugh at it either.
The lesson to the House of Commons and to the country is clear. The Tory Government have given the other place predominance over the House of Commons. There is no question about that. The proof of it is in the fact that the House of Lords has been allowed to pass legislation which is going upon the Statute Book and on which the House of Commons has been completely gagged. If that does not make the other House predominant then I do not know what does. It is Government by a single Chamber and, as I interjected into the debate last week when the Order was being discussed, it is Government by the wrong Chamber. It is Government by an hereditary and privileged section of the community. That cannot be denied.
It means, in a word, that no matter in what form a Bill reaches another place from the House of Commons, a few Members of that other place can reshape it drastically, and when it comes to the House of Commons a Tory Government can completely emasculate the right of this House by using the power of the Guillotine. For such an arbitrary and mischievous claim, this Government should be censured by the House and dismissed by the country.
7.41 p.m.
Mr. Robert Allan: I have listened to previous censure Motions in this House, and though I have been tempted to intervene I have restrained myself from doing so because of my awe and because people with greater Parliamentary experience than I had desired to speak. But having listened to this debate for some time I have rather lost my awe, and though I feel no more qualified to speak, nevertheless I thought it would be quite a good thing if someone with little Parliamentary experience made a contribution to this debate, and also, of course, even the humblest back bencher is vitally concerned in the way we conduct our affairs.
I was very sorry to hear the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Turner-Samuels). His attack on my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke), was most unfair because my noble Friend, before venturing

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into any proposal concerning another place, made it quite clear that if he had his choice he would stay in the House of Commons all the years of his life. The hon. and learned Gentleman said the real issue was whether the House of Commons was being gagged or not.
Mr. Turner-Samuels: What I said was that laws were passed through another place, and when they came to be considered in the House of Commons we were gagged and not allowed to say a word about them.
Mr. Allan: That is what I said, that the real issue was whether the House was being gagged or not. If that were the case the benches in this House would be more crowded now than they are, and I feel that some of this debate would have had a very different tone. I would not like to say what the real issue here is, though I have my own ideas, but clearly it is not one of such vital importance as the hon. and learned Gentleman tried to make out.
The hon. and learned Gentleman dealt at some length with the issue of the Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill. No one disputes that the Lords Amendments were important. Nevertheless, it was quite clear, and I think it has been conclusively proved by the figures which I have, and which have been already given to the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South, that the Opposition were determined to obstruct. They adopted an attitude which they were perfectly entitled to follow, but it was not one which gained them credit either in this House or outside.
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said, the Opposition are perfectly entitled under the rules which govern our procedure to do what they did; but, on the other hand, the Government, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman also pointed out, have got the rights of the majority, and are quite entitled to pass their legislation through Parliament.
The point was raised by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) and others that this is a minority Government and it has not the right to push through the sort
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of legislation which we were discussing when this issue arose. In point of fact, we have a working majority. Hon. Members have also stated today that one of the reasons we cannot send Bills upstairs to Committee is that we have such a small majority, and so they have to be discussed on the Floor of the House. I think I am right in saying that, with the exception of the de-nationalisation Bills and the Finance Bill, all Measures have gone upstairs, and following the precedent set by hon. Gentlemen opposite when they were in power, the de-nationalisation Bills have been taken on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Crookshank: As a matter of fact, it was not the precedent because it was the normal practice for the present Opposition to send those Bills upstairs when they were in power.
Mr. Allan: I am glad to be corrected by my right hon. Friend. The issue has also been raised whether we have authority to pass this legislation. I do not subscribe greatly to the theory of the electoral mandate, but I do not expect there was a single Conservative candidate at the last Election who did not make some promise or other about denationalisation. Therefore, I think it is fair to say that we have a mandate for this particular legislation, and that the Government were perfectly entitled to push it through. Had this Guillotine Motion on the Lords Amendments been submitted earlier, I suggest that the Opposition would have saved their face, we would have had very reasonable debates, and we would not have had the Parliamentary temperature raised as it has been raised.
One point I should like to raise is that these wrangles which we have over procedure are not nearly as important as they are made out to be. In fact, we would have a much larger attendance in the House at this moment if they were. From conversations which I have had with back benchers on both sides of the House, it does not seem to me that the back benchers are fully behind the Front Benchers in these matters. The Prime Minister the other day said that he did not achieve his declared wish of getting the Transport Bill through before the weekend, and he very handsomely admitted that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South had scored a victory over him.

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It is said by some that the passage of the Guillotine Motion itself was a victory for the Government, because they got their Bill on the day they wanted it. Now it is being said by hon. Members opposite that because we had to have this extra day the whole thing in the end has been a victory for the Opposition. In their very narrowest terms these may be Parliamentary victories, but to me, with a great deal of respect for Parliament but admittedly not very much experience, they seem pretty hollow victories, not of the kind which hon. Members in this House and certainly the people in our constituencies estimate of any account whatever.
The second reason I have sought to intervene is to say that it is the back benchers who carried the heat and the burden of the night during the late sittings. My right hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench are extremely inconvenienced by night Sittings, but, after all, their Parliamentary work is whole-time, and they are fairly adequately rewarded for it. They have facilities to carry on their work in this House. The right hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Front Bench have tasted the fruits of office, and may in the very remote future hope to do so again. But we on the back benches are not comforted in the present, nor do we have any very great confidence in the future. It is we who, with the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Benches, have to sit up all night, and then on the following morning a great many of us have to do some work or other.
As was mentioned by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, this seems to raise the question of the need to examine the conduct of our business. I do not wish to go into details, even were I allowed to do so, but I do not favour the idea of paying high salaries to hon. Members which would make them feel bound to regard themselves as professional politicians. I think the House collectively would lose in experience and knowledge by that. Equally, I do not condemn out of hand all late sittings or all all-night sittings. It may well be that in the interests of the continuity of debate a very long sitting is sometimes necessary. Perhaps there is an important matter
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before the House which requires lengthy discussion before a decision may be arrived at; or in Committee there may be a whole series of related Amendments on which a sustained and long argument is necessary.
With those reservations, I would say that this debate reinforces the plea made earlier for some re-examination of our method of conducting our business, though if that course were adopted there would be a very long delay before anything came of it, and in the meantime we should still be faced with this problem. The real issue would seem to be how we are to conduct our business in a more reasonable manner. The rules by which we work may be reformed and I would agree that they should be investigated. Equally, however good any rules may be, it is the interpretation of them which counts. We have had a great deal of talk today about the duties of the Opposition, but the Opposition also have a duty to the House as a whole to enable it to do its business, and I think that duty has not been fulfilled as well as other aspects of Opposition policy which hon. Members have extolled.
Then we come to that subterranean mystery, the "usual channels." I am not qualified to speak about the "usual channels" at all, but since I have been in this House they seem to have been blocked up, if we may judge by what has flown through them, or rather what has not. I have heard that blockages have occurred largely because of the difficulty experienced by the Opposition Front Bench in agreeing with their supporters about what time is to be taken for business. I am quite sure that no one would be more pleased than my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and the Patronage Secretary if those "usual channels" could be unblocked.
While I support the Government today, I would add my voice to those who have called for a re-examination of the conduct of our business. Although it may be very presumptuous of me, I would urge right hon. Members on both the Opposition and the Government Front Benches, in the interests of Parliamentary Government and of their back benchers, to see whether they can find a satisfactory modus vivendi.
7.55 p.m.
Mr. Michael Stewart: The hon. Member for Paddington, South (Mr. R. Allan) urged that we should try to find a better way of conducting our business. He may well be right, though I would enter this word of caution; that the best way of conducting our business is not necessarily the way which will most easily meet the convenience of hon. Members. The best way may prove in some respects to be very inconvenient for us, but we must put up with that because it is what we are here for.
I agree that there is a case for discussing what is, in the interest of the nation, the best way of conducting our business. A great part of the case we make against the Government is that their behaviour, not only recently but throughout this Parliament, is continually prejudicing the atmosphere in which such discussions may be carried out. Although the immediate occasion of this Motion was the imposition of a block Guillotine on the Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill, we must regard the proceedings on the Transport Bill as only one example of the general attitude of the Government.
In the Motion we draw attention to the fact that, by their behaviour, the Government are injuring the dignity of this House. In their Amendment the Government attempt to shuffle off the blame upon us. That is typical of what has happened all through the proceedings on the Transport Bill. Let us consider this Bill from the moment of its first appearance, because it was an ill-omened Bill from the start. It was mentioned in the King's Speech at the beginning of the last Session as one of the Measures which the Government hoped to get through then. Owing to the extraordinary degree of incompetence displayed by those responsible for managing the business of the Government in this House, the Bill did not see the light of day in that Session.
When the text of the Bill first appeared it was of such terrifying badness that a considerable number of hon. Members, who are normally supporters of the Government, shrank from it, and new proposals had to be put forward. That is the atmosphere in which this Bill, which has been causing so much trouble to the House, has come before us in its present form.
Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Has not the hon. Member forgotten that His Majesty the King died during that period, which caused a loss of Parliamentary time?
Mr. Stewart: I have certainly not forgotten that. But surely the hon. Gentleman is not seriously suggesting that was the reason why this Bill was not introduced. There were several other Measures mentioned in the King's Speech which also did not get through. In fact, if we look through that Speech we shall see that not a single major Measure mentioned there got through. It is really most improper for the hon. Gentleman to refer to a solemn national event of that kind and try to use it as something so wildly inappropriate as an excuse for the incompetence of the Leader of the House during that Session.
If the Government state that they propose to introduce a Bill in one Session and are unable to do so; and if, through their incompetence, the Bill is eventually introduced in such a form that it has to be taken away and thought out again, surely it is reasonable for them to expect that such a Bill will meet with strenuous opposition. On Second Reading it did meet with very strenuous opposition, and what was the reaction of the Government? They turned on the Opposition and said, "You have opposed this Bill on Second Reading very strongly. We will use that as an argument for imposing the Guillotine on the Committee and the Report stages of the Bill." That Guillotine was imposed without discussion with the Opposition to see if an agreed time-table could be reached.
The reason given for imposing it was that the Opposition had opposed the Bill on Second Reading. I would most emphatically draw attention to the kind of tactic that was employed. First, a Bill was prepared and brought forward in circumstances that made it the inevitable duty of the Opposition to oppose it most strenuously. Then the Opposition's action was termed obstruction and made the excuse for further efforts to restrict proper discussion of the Bill.
But that was only the first stage in the process. The Government decided to deal with the Committee stage of the Bill in Committee of the whole House. That was, in itself, a regrettable decision. We

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do not get better consideration by the House by trying to pack into a limited amount of time discussion nominally before the whole House but in such conditions that only a very limited number of hon. Members can take part. We get a better judgment by the House on a Bill of that kind when it is sent to a Standing Committee, where it can be examined for the proper length of time without other business continually treading on its heels and providing the Government with an excuse for squeezing the discussion.
Why did not the Government do that? There was only one reason. They were afraid that they would not keep their slender majority in a Standing Committee. They could do so perfectly well if it were not for the fact that a number of hon. Members opposite have other claims on their time to which they give priority over affairs in this House. They are entitled to do that, I suppose, if they can square it with their constituents. What the Government are not entitled to say is that because their supporters are so self-indulgent that they will not come to Standing Committees in the mornings, business that ought to go to Standing Committee is to take up the time of the whole House.
But that is what they did, with the inevitable result that consideration of the Bill took a very long time. Clearly, that was going to jeopardise the Government's programme. That is a danger they could easily have avoided by having the Bill dealt with in the proper way, in Standing Committee. But one error in procedure led the Government into another. Having decided to take the Bill in Committee of the whole House the Government found themselves pressed for time. Therefore, they were driven to say, "Then we must Guillotine it in Committee of the whole House."
That was the origin of the Guillotine on the Committee stage of the Bill. It sprang from those two facts—a wrong decision to deal with the Bill in Committee of the whole House, and the extraordinary argument by the Leader of the House that because the Opposition had attacked the Bill on Second Reading the discussion of its later stages must be squeezed under the Guillotine.
So we had Committee and Report stages which were inadequate, which were
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bound, in view of the action the Government had taken, to be inadequate and which, indeed, the Government intended to be inadequate. And what did they find as a result of that? They found that as the discussions in Committee and on Report went on it became apparent that the Government really could not let the Bill pass into law without some alterations in it. The case urged from this side for certain Amendments was so strong that the Government felt it impossible to let the Bill become law without accepting some changes. But they were restricted by their own Guillotine. It was not possible to get those changes, the necessity for which had by then become apparent to the whole House, put into the Bill while it was still before the House of Commons.
The Government were, therefore, forced to another irregularity—that of having to make in another place Amendments of a length and of a nature that really ought not to be left to another place and that would not have been left to them if proper consideration of the Bill in the House had not been prevented by the Government's Guillotine. So, at one stage after another, each ill-judged step has put the Government in a position in which it has been obliged to go on to a further irregularity.
Mr. Harmar Nicholls: Has the hon. Gentleman forgotten that the Socialist Government, in 1947, put before the House on the Transport Bill of that year 230 Lords Amendments compared with 71 in this case?
Mr. Stewart: We did not object to that. We did not attempt to impose a Guillotine. If the hon. Gentleman will study those Amendments he will find that although they were numerous not one of them was of the nature of the chief Amendment which was under discussion a few weeks ago. That was almost a Bill in itself. It was as long as some Bills and, in effect, we had to have a Second Reading debate before we could even consider what alterations in detail should be made in it. There was no parallel to that in the 1947 Act.
Following quite inevitably from the way the Government had behaved so far, we got the Bill back from the Lords with extensive Amendments made in it. What was the natural result of that? If a Bill

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is brought back from the Lords with extensive Amendments in it there is likely to be a considerable debate on those Amendments. Yet when the Opposition proposed to have a considerable debate the Government again said "Oh, no. This is obstruction. It is true that this Bill has come from the Lords in a way that is most unusual, but all the same we really cannot allow you to discuss the Lords Amendments in full or give them proper consideration. We shall restrict your consideration of them by the use of something quite unprecedented—a Guillotine on Lords Amendments."
Mr. Nicholls: After 40 hours.
Mr. Stewart: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me of the various excuses offered by the Government for this extraordinary procedure.
There was the suggestion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) that because, in the usual interchange across the Floor of the House which occurs on Thursdays about the following week's business, we had not explicitly said to the Government that two days was not enough, the whole of the Opposition, indeed, the whole of the House, were prevented—estopped, was the legalistic word the hon. Member used —from prolonging the debate on the Lords Amendments. A proposition of that kind has only to be stated for its absurdity to be apparent.
As has already been pointed out by hon. Friends of mine there is plenty of precedent to show that the House does not, and cannot possibly, bind itself by the interchange of argument about the business for next week that occurs on Thursdays to any precise programme for the following week. It is against the whole spirit and nature of this House to set out the programme in a precise and definite manner of that kind.
Then it is suggested that the actual discussion on the Lords Amendments was of an unnecessary and obstructive character. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West tried to deal with that point by listing the number of Amendments. He said that there were 14 Lords Amendments and three of them were purely drafting while several of the rest hung in pairs together, as if we could talk about Amendments by number as
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if they were all of equal importance. There was one of these Amendments which was really a Bill in itself. To talk of it as if we could weigh it side by side with a drafting or consequential Amendment is to ignore the whole facts of the case.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I do not accept the statement that the Amendment in question was a Bill in itself, but even if it was it had three days' discussion, which is three times what most Bills have.
Mr. Stewart: I will tell the Minister why that occurred.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I should like to know.
Mr. Stewart: One of my hon. Friends reminds me that the Minister is exaggerating; but, even if he were not, what happened when we were discussing that considerable Amendment? Quite properly, a series of Amendments was put down by the Opposition. Nobody will say as yet that it is improper for the Opposition to try to amend Lords Amendments. I remember the discussion that we had; it was very remarkable. It dealt with the point of what the Commission is to do if, at the end of a certain period of time, it is left with the shares of certain companies on its hands. I agree that the point ought not to have taken very long, but what happened was that the Parliamentary Secretary gave one answer, the Attorney-General got up and gave another, and, indeed, on the point about which we on this side of the House wanted to know, the two of them contradicted each other. Then the Minister had to get up to try to tidy up what his two colleagues had said.
The Minister has asked me why all this took three times as long as a Bill usually takes, and I replied that it was because there were three Ministers who replied and that it was a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. I would pay the right hon. Gentleman the compliment of saying that, if he had been here by himself, it might have been possible to get through the business a little quicker, and that the Government have themselves largely to blame, by incompetent explanations of the points raised, for the time taken up by what was quite a simple matter.

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Once again, it is the Government who are at fault and who are trying to lay the blame for it on the Opposition. We had three Ministers giving contradictory answers, and as a result, the proceedings took three times as long as they should, and then we are told that the Opposition were filibustering. That is the kind of argument to which we have had to listen to all through this debate. Moreover, when it had become apparent that there were difficulties about getting the Lords Amendments through, we for our part entered into discussions with the Government. We were willing to conclude the business at the end of three more days. The Government, quite obviously, in spite of what they have said today, did not regard that as unreasonable, because they themselves thought that two days would be a necessary allowance.
The argument at that stage had narrowed down to the question whether there should be two or three more days, but now there was another figure on the horizon. There was the Prime Minister, ramping and roaring, informing the House that the business must be finished by the end of the week, though it was apparent that that could only be done by taking away the time normally given to Private Members on Fridays and pursuing the unusual course of bringing the House together on Saturday. However, that course was not persisted in. When next we considered the matter, there was, if I may use an historic phrase, an appeal from Philip drunk to Philip sober, and we were told that the Government would bring that about by means of the Allocation of Time Order which has proved such an unprecedented part of our discussions.
That established a very interesting principle. It established the principle that, when the Prime Minister, speaking on Thursday, says "this week," it means any time up to the end of the following Monday, but, and this is absolutely vital, on no acount will he allow "this week" to mean any time up to the end of the following Tuesday. He established that point to make sure that the Government should finish the business in two more days rather than that we should have to resort to the extraordinary procedure of a block Guillotine on Lords Amendments. That is what all this talk of opposition filibustering comes down to. Are we to be accused of filibustering solely because we
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are not prepared to accept without question the Government's definition of how much time is enough? That was how the Government got themselves into this position of having to introduce a block Guillotine on Lords Amendments.
I shall endeavour to be brief, but I am anxious that this argument should be clear. I would remind the House of the steps that led the Government to this extraordinary length. First of all, they introduce a Bill about which they were in two minds themselves, and the original form of which was so appalling that it had to be withdrawn. They provoke the Opposition and then say that the Opposition are obstructing, and they make that the excuse for the Guillotine on the Committee and Report stages.
The Guillotine on the Committee and Report stages produced inadequate discussion of the Bill, so that it becomes necessary to amend it to an exceptional degree in the Lords. The result of it being amended to an exceptional degree in the Lords is that there is likely to be a long debate on the Lords Amendments, and when they come back to this House, the Government then say, "We cannot tolerate a very long debate, and we are going to impose the Guillotine on the Lords Amendments."
What are the objections to that Guillotine Motion on the Lords Amendments? One might say, first of all, that it is quite unprecedented to use the Guillotine on the discussion of Lords Amendments, though I would not regard that myself as an overwhelming argument against it. To say that something is unprecedented is not a decisive argument against it, though I think that, when we do something unprecedented, it ought to be done seriously and after consideration, and not merely by way of saving the Prime Minister's face and enabling the Government to make up for their past nonsense.
A second objection to the use of the Guillotine on the Lords Amendments was that it was a block Guillotine, whereby, at the end of a fixed time, we were not even allowed the opportunity to vote, even if we wished to do so, on the Amendments separately. We had to decide on all the Amendments together; it was a case of, "Do you like them or not?" It was what used to be known a few years ago as the process of a conditional sale. Some of the Amendments,

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it was recognised, we all wanted, but the House was told, "If you want any, you must have the lot," despite the fact that some of them contained very serious considerations of Privilege.
The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West and one or two others have tried to argue that we really need not have made any fuss about it, because the Amendments were for the most part drafting Amendments and had passed the Lords without a Division. It is an extraordinary doctrine that Amendments that have gone through the Lords without a Division ought not to be amended or possibly considered in this House, but, even suppose that were true, and that the Amendments were all of the most blameless character, it is still quite possible, proper and desirable to say that this practice is unnecessary and profoundly dangerous to the proper rights and privileges of this House, because the people who are aiming at destroying the privileges of democratic assembly always seek a good occasion for so doing.
What was at issue in the famous ship money case in which John Hampden was involved? The King's proposition was that not only seaport towns but inland towns should contribute to the upkeep of the Navy—a most admirable and reasonable proposition—and all that was in question was that, unfortunately, the King proposed to do it by a totally illegal method. Similarly, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West said that foreigners coming to this country would regard the occasion about which we are disputing as trivial, as it was in the ship money case—a wealthy country gentleman cavilling at paying a sum of 40s.
Anyone who has studied the history of democratic institutions and of how they have resisted attempts made against them knows very well that, if you want to introduce an undesirable precedent, you always choose the best and most smooth-seeming occasion for doing it. The fact that these Amendments had much to be said for them is neither here nor there. They were being used as a way of getting the House to agree to a method of dealing with Lords Amendments which could subsequently be quoted as a precedent, to the very great damage of this House.
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A further objection was that we were able to get that Guillotine Motion accepted by the House only by stretching the terms of the Allocation of Time Order, to which the House agreed on 24th November, because nobody had the least idea, when that Order was passed, that it could cover Lords Amendments. We had to get from Mr. Speaker a ruling to the effect that there is a difference between the stages of a Bill and the proceedings on a Bill, a thing which had not occured to anybody before.
The Leader of the House spoke today of the proceedings on the Lords Amendments as one of the stages of the Bill-exactly what it is not, and Mr. Speaker had already ruled that it was not. It may be said that it was only a slip of the tongue, but that is exactly the kind of slip of the tongue that Leaders of the House will not be able to make in future. We established quite casually the distinction between stages of a Bill and proceedings on a Bill which may have we do not know what consequences in the future.
Further, I ventured to ask Mr. Speaker at the time whether the Order passed on 24th November could properly cover Lords Amendments, and, if so, whether we ought not to have had our attention called to the fact at the time. I ventured to ask why Mr. Speaker had not so called our attention to it. I will quote Mr. Speaker's reply to the House, although I am not quoting his exact words. He said, "I will be perfectly frank with the hon. Member. It did not occur to me at all."
That is the position in which the Chair has been put by this extraordinary procedure, all to save one Parliamentary day and the face of the Prime Minister. That is really why we are moving a Motion of this kind today. The Government have not really made any answer to the case. They created the difficulties on this Bill by their own ineptitude in the first stages, and, to deal with that situation, they rushed matters in trying to find a quick easy way out of their own difficulties, not caring at all how many procedural and constitutional difficulties their handling of the matter left this House to deal with in future, and not only this House, but another place as well.

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When we were debating the Guillotine during the Committee stage of the Transport Bill, I ventured to compare the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House with Lady Macbeth who said, when she was committing a crime:
"If it were done, when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly."
Since then he has taken over another role. He has appeared in the guise of Madame Defarge, sitting by the guillotine counting the heads as they fell. The heads in this case are not only the Lords Amendments, but the privileges and the dignity of this House and the proper relations between this House and another place.
8.24 p.m.
Mr. Harmar Nicholls: There was at least one point on which I agreed with the hon. and learned Member for Gloucester (Mr. Turner-Samuels). He said that in his view this Motion of censure arose out of pique. I think that would be accepted on all sides, and that it arises from the fact that hon. Members opposite lost the last Election. The whole of their opposition, which has culminated in this debate today, is due to the fact that we have kept our election promise and set about de-nationalising road transport.
The hon. Member for Fulham, East (Mr. M. Stewart) said that the only reason for today's debate was that the Bill was badly prepared in the first case; it was so inept that the House had had to spend so much time on it and that the natural consequence was that we had to have this Motion. But the threat to defeat this Bill was made by the Opposition before its terms were known. They did not know what they were going to oppose. The suggestion that it was an inept Bill does not hold water. I think that was thought up by the hon. Member in order to make a point at this stage of the debate.
Mr. M. Stewart: The hon. Member says that we were resolved to oppose the principle of the Bill before its text was known. But is the fact that the general principle of the Bill is known to be objectionable to the Opposition an excuse for bringing forward an inept and badly drafted Bill?
Mr. Nicholls: The hon. Member was quite clearly trying to justify the extreme nature of today's Motion by saying that it flowed naturally from a bad Bill. The Opposition had to bring in these various points once they had nailed their colours to the mast as to the line they were going to take before they knew the terms of the Bill at all. I think that is a complete answer to a weak argument.
Mr. S. Silverman: Would the hon. Member care to explain to the House how in the world the Opposition could know what it wanted to oppose before the Government knew what it wanted to propose?
Mr. Nicholls: That is exactly the dilemma in which I find myself. I thought that the weakest point the Opposition made on the Transport Bill and the Steel Bill was when they threatened completely to demolish them before they knew what they had to demolish.
None of the arguments from hon. Members opposite has really been directed to the terms of the Amendment itself. They say that this is a constitutional outrage and that it opens the door to an undemocratic Government of the future and to the taking away of the freedoms that have been born over the centuries. It was the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) who really dealt with that point most adequately. Indeed, the hon. Member for Fulham, East produced precisely the same argument.
How can it be said that this is a constitutional outrage which attacks the freedoms born over the centuries when all it boils down to is whether or not an extra day should be given to debating the Bill? That really is the whole point, whether we should have continued on the Tuesday with the Lords Amendments or whether we should have finished on the Monday. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) said that all he wanted was an extra day. I submit that the words of the Motion were very adequately answered by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery.
The other argument that has been put was advanced by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South on 21st April, when he said that the Patronage Secretary and the Leader of the House got special delight out of saying "No" to the Opposition and that they did not know how

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much light could be caused by saying "Yes" now and again. Hon. Members opposite are trying to create the impression that they want to be reasonable and that all they want is for the Government to say "Yes" on one or two occasions, and that they have no desire at all to delay the Government in their business. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South admitted that the time allowed for the Amendments was very much more than is ordinarily the case. There is no question of the Leader of the House refusing to say "Yes"; he has said "Yes" to a greater extent than has been said in previous discussions on similar Lords Amendments.
If we examine the background to this debate, we find that all this sweet reasonableness which would flow from the Opposition benches is not based upon our experience so far. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) referred to a letter which he and some of his hon. Friends wrote to "The Times" last year, and I think reference to that letter is not out of order when we are considering whether or not the Opposition axe filibustering. This is an extract:
"The purpose of this Opposition has been to employ Government time upon administrative legislation and to deny Government time to introduce contentious legislation for which they had no mandate."
That is a clear admission that the purpose of the Opposition was to use up Government time in any and every way to prevent the Government from carrying out Measures for which they were given a mandate at the last Election. The letter concluded:
"The Opposition has the power, the will and the ingenuity to frustrate it."
They are using the power which they are supposed to have and they are using all the will they have to frustrate the Government in their efforts to carry out the intentions for which they had a clear mandate from the country at the last General Election.
Mr. Callaghan: Surely the hon. Gentleman is not claiming, after all the changes which the Transport Bill has gone through, that the Bill bears any resemblance to the mandate for which the Government asked the people.
Mr. Nicholls: The mandate for which we asked the people was a mandate to
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de-nationalise road transport, and that is precisely what the Bill does. In the letter to "The Times" the Opposition made it quite clear that they were using all the means at their disposal, whether they were taking up Parliamentary time rightly or wrongly, to defeat the Government in that endeavour. That called for comment from the editor of "The Times." who wrote:
"For not even the 'evolving' British constitution could tolerate a convention which forbade the Government to govern or allowed them to govern only at the discretion of the Opposition. …"
That is the sort of proposition which really would have been intolerable, but that was only one example of the mood of the Opposition of thinking they could prevent the Government from doing their job. The ex-Minister of Food wrote in one of the Sunday papers as follows:
"I know the Tories for the moment are in office but we are still in power. We are the ruling class and should act like it."
That is the sort of mentality which has been displayed against the Government the whole time we have been in office trying to carry out what we promised the country. The right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up the debate, the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), speaking in the House on 9th April, said:
"But we warn the Government that if they do not do it, if they insist upon forcing this legislation through the House, we cannot guarantee them any facilities whatsoever, either on the Finance Bill or the Supplies and Services Bill, despite whatever constitutional embarrassments may follow. We must not allow ourselves to be driven in this way."
Who is threatening constitutional upheaval? Who is saying that, despite the constitutional embarrassments which may follow, they will not allow the Government to carry out their legislative programme? In the same debate the right hon. Gentleman said:
"I seriously suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government ought to reconsider the whole of their legislative programme. They ought to abandon certain Bills uncongenial to the Opposition. I know that it is difficult for the Government, but actually the Opposition are in charge of the situation and not the Government."
The Opposition would have been in charge of the situation if we had allowed their tactics of delay, unconstitutional or otherwise, to prevent us from carrying out the intentions which we placed before the

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country at the last Election. We had another threat from the right hon. Gentleman in the same debate, when he said:
"If Parliament is so much out of tune with what the country wants, if the Government of the day force through legislation so demon-strably against the wishes of the vast majority of the electorate, how is it possible for us continually to advise the industrial masses that they ought not to use industrial action in order to prevent legislation they do not like?"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April, 1952; Vol. 498, c. 2786–87.]
Hon. Members opposite talk about power being taken along the corridor to another place. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that it is to be taken outside the House to the factory gates, with, I have no doubt, some garbled version which would come from the Opposition. There is no doubt that this debate arises out of pique. It arises out of the pique of hon. Members opposite at having lost the last Election. We had "Mein Kampf" putting in writing the intentions of the leader of the German nation, but we have never had more clearly laid down than today the precise sort of line hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite intend to follow to frustrate the decisions of the Government.
There is a list of figures relating to the Transport Bill that I think ought to be on the record and which have not been given as yet. The Opposition have criticised the number of Amendments that came back from another place, and they have criticised the amount of time given for the consideration of those Amendments. Let me remind them of these figures.
The 1947 Act consisted of 128 Sections and 15 Schedules covering in all 173 pages. The Bill passed through all its stages in this House in 146 hours. That was when we were the Opposition. That was an average of 50 minutes' discussion per page. The new Bill is of 36 Clauses and four Schedules, covering 50 pages. Progress through this House of this very much smaller Measure has taken 130 hours, an average of two hours and five minutes per page—something like 50 minutes extra per page.
How can the Opposition—let them call it a better Opposition, if they will—say that the Leader of the House has not allowed the Opposition the time to carry out their intentions? The Socialist Government allotted one Parliamentary day
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for consideration of 230 Lords Amendments to their Measure of 1947. The Conservative Government allotted two Parliamentary days for the consideration of 71 Amendments from another place. However we look at this, whether the time given for the Amendments that came down from another place, or the size of the Bill, we find that on every score the present Government have been much more forthcoming in allotting time to the House than the previous Government whose supporters are now criticising us so much.
This is a "phoney" censure Motion, and that is illustrated by the attendance in the Chamber. From the opening speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South the whole thing has fallen flat because Members of this House on both sides know that the foundation of this Motion is "phoney" and faulty. The question in my mind is whether this is the last of the filibustering. Is this the end of the 18 months they threatened in their first speeches and in their letters? Or are we beginning now a time-wasting procedure to be continued when we take the Finance Bill and other Measures?
The Opposition think they may be creating an impression in the country, but I can tell them from my experience that the country is not interested in this silly wrangling going on all through the night. If people in the country have any knowledge of it at all, they think it a disgraceful performance, and they criticise those responsible for continuing it, and it is those who continue it who are the people who are attacking the Constitution of this country that has grown through the centuries by the process of trial and error.
8.39 p.m.
Mr. W. T. Proctor: This Motion is the most serious Motion the Opposition could put down affecting the Government of the day. To censure a Government for their conduct towards the House of Commons is a very serious thing, but I consider that this Government deserve this Censure, and that their conduct towards the House in relation to the Transport Bill is in every way to be condemned. I do not deny the right of a Government who have a majority to impose their will upon the House of Commons. I do not deny for a moment

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their right to have a comfortable majority on every Committee in the House; indeed, I think we could easily have a look at all our machinery, to review it. But what I do deny is the right of a Government to legislate while, at the same time, refusing to listen to argument.
That is what the Government have done; they have refused to listen. When supporters of the Government come here and listen for the short time that they do they are unable to respond to the arguments put forward because the decision has already been made by the Prime Minister of the day and imposed on the Cabinet. The new situation in which the House of Commons has been placed, which does not afford proper time to argue out the case, and does not allow matters to be dealt with in a constitutional way, is something upon which we can condemn the Government.
Mr. G. Wilson: Has the hon. Gentleman ever seen the HANSARD reports of the debates on this Bill put together? I hold them here in my hand for him to see.
Mr. Proctor: I am not concerned about the hon. Gentleman producing a number of volumes. I say that because of the way in which the business of this House has been conducted we have not had time to deploy our arguments. It is no use the hon. Gentleman waving those papers at me, because I remember scores of Amendments being disposed of by a single vote. It is facts that count on this issue.
What we are considering here is the conduct of the Government on these Lords Amendments. It has been suggested that they have a mandate for what they did. I challenge any hon. Member opposite to tell us what mandate they had to impose a levy of the transport industry. No one ever heard of it before this Bill was brought into existence. If it had been put to the road transport people who supported the Tory Party at the last General Election they would have dismissed it out of hand. The Government have no authority whatever from the last General Election for these proposals for, not complete denationalisation, but partial denationalisation.
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I was very interested in the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) this afternoon. He referred to the visit to America of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) and suggested that that was the cause of all the trouble; that my hon. Friend came back to this country full of vim and vigour and brought about all the difficulties from which we suffer in the House of Commons. I have not followed carefully what my hon. Friend said in America, but I am sure that when he was there he did not slander his own country in the scandalous way in which many members of the Tory Party did when we were in power and they visited America.
The noble Lord gave us an example of one Amendment that was not discussed because of the Guillotine, and he said that he would have liked to have spent a considerable time discussing it. It dealt with the railway accounts. He was prevented by the Guillotine of his right hon. Friends from discussing that Amendment about which he wanted to speak. He could not more clearly have condemned the use of the Guillotine. He ended his speech on a very interesting note, saying that the General Election gave the Tory Party a sufficient majority in the House to carry out the Guillotine procedure, and suggested that the next General Election might give them a sufficient majority to restore the privileges of another place.
If the Tory Party are honest, in their next General Election manifesto they will say, "Last time we had sufficient power to gag the House of Commons. Next time, if you give us a majority, we will restore the privileges of the House of Lords." I am not sure that that will be an Election winner, and I would welcome the test of democratic opinion upon that at any time.
Then the noble Lord referred to the antics of the Tory Party when we had a narrow majority, and he seemed to take great pride in their conduct at that time. It is on record, from the mouth of one of their Members, that the Tory Party said they would harry the life out of Labour Members during that period. It is a very sad fact that they succeeded in doing that. One or two of my hon. Friends, notably the late Mr. Cobb, gave, as I believe, his life for the sacrifices which he made here

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Another case was that of an hon. Lady from South Wales who, despite a fractured skull, travelled 180 miles by car to vote in the House because it was impossible to get a pair for her.
Let us consider the conduct of the Tory Party when my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) was Colonial Secretary and he and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) were visiting Malaya. No one could suggest that two Cabinet Ministers visiting Malaya in the interests of their country could have a more responsible duty than that. The Tory Party refused to pair them while they were out there. They ran a Motion of censure on the Government during that period and attempted to bring it down. I say that conduct such as that in Opposition is scandalously unpatriotic.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): That is a little wide of the censure on this Government.
Mr. Proctor: I have made the point, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I am very glad to have brought forward a few of the facts.
Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order. In view of the fact that the Leader of the House, in his speech, was allowed to debate housing, food subsidies, the improvement of—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not hear that speech, and I am merely saying that this is too wide of the mark.
Mr. Proctor: During the Third Reading of the Transport Bill in the House of Commons I referred to the fact that during the time of the debates in Committee the Minister told us about new Clauses which were to be introduced in the House of Lords. We therefore concluded that we should have ample opportunity of discussing these new Clauses when they came back to the House of Commons in the shape of Lords Amendments. The proposals upon which these new Clauses were to be based came, in the first place, from the Tory Party. It was suggested by the hon. Members who brought them forward that they were to take the form of new companies being formed under the auspices of the Transport Act, and the Transport Commission were to have a financial interest in them.
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I referred to this matter on the Third Reading debate in the House of Commons. I was naturally concerned that when these new Clauses came back from the House of Lords we should have the opportunity of debating them. Much play has been made with the fact that no protest was made when the Leader of the House came forward with the Lords Amendments and allotted one day for their consideration. Through the usual channels, many discussions take place, but they do not always represent back bench opinions; we have rights and privileges.
I immediately made representation— my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East will remember this— to the Leader of the House and to others that these were important matters upon which much time should be spent in the House of Commons, and that we should have an opportunity of discussing them. That went through the usual channels, and to suggest that because no protest was made on the Thursday when these matters were brought forward the House of Commons loses its ordinary rights is to fly flagrantly in the face of past practice and custom. I say that that is altogether wrong.
When this matter was finally discussed a large number of Amendments were put down to the Lords Amendments. My hon. Friends will remember that there were many more suggested, but that the Government appealed to us not to put them forward because some of the points had been dealt with in Committee. When those Amendments came before the House, we had a discussion. The Minister of Transport said that he had just spent 5½ hours looking through the Labour Amendments to the Lords Amendments.
We all know what it means when a Minister of the Crown says that he has spent 5½ hours looking through the Lords Amendments. That does not mean that he has gone through all the figures and has read every line himself. He sits down with the most brilliant Parliamentarians and the most expert people in transport, who give him the benefit of all their experience. If it takes the Minister 5½ hours to do that, it is quite unreasonable for him to expect back benchers to go through these matters in the express

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fashion that has been suggested. I therefore appeal to every hon. Member to support us in this Motion of censure which the Government, by their conduct, deserve.
8.52 p.m.
Mr. Aneurin Bevan: I am sorry to have to rise at this moment, but the Minister has given me an intimation that he wants to have roughly about 40 minutes because he has a great deal to say. Therefore, I had to rise immediately after the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Proctor). I hope, however, that when the right hon. Gentleman replies he will address to the House a serious argument and not give the sort of exhibition that we had earlier this afternoon from the Leader of the House. I think that even hon. Members on the Government side of the House felt rather ashamed—
Dr. Morgan: They would not be ashamed of anything.
Mr. Bevan:—that the Leader of the House should have made a speech which was, on the whole, unworthy of the occasion. I think hon. Members will agree, on reflection, that it was certainly unworthy of the serious and reasoned argument to which they had listened from my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison).
I also further ask the Minister to be good enough not to spend so much time on the details of the Transport Bill but a little more time on the constitutional issues arising out of what is at present happening. We have heard a great deal about the Transport Bill, but no hon. Member from the other side has yet addressed himself to the constitutional consequences of the procedure which has been adopted.
One of the things that surprised us, although, of course, I am not reflecting upon it in the slightest degree, was the decision by Mr. Speaker as to whether the Guillotine Motion was in order. I think it will be generally accepted that no one thought that the original Motion last November included powers to apply a Guillotine to this stage of the Bill. I challenge the Government to say that they thought so. If they did, they were unworthy of their position in not making it clear to
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the House. Certainly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham, East (Mr. M. Stewart) has already pointed out, when Mr. Speaker was asked why he did not direct the attention of the House to that construction of the Resolution, he said that it had not occurred to him. The Government for their part, therefore, did not think that those words bore that construction.
I am not using this argument merely to repeat what has been said, but to direct the attention of the Chair and of all hon. Members to what follows from that. Whenever there is a Motion before this House intended to deal with the business of the House, its language is always construed in the light of the practice and experience of the House. When we frame a Bill and when the ultimate refinement of a Bill takes place, the obligation rests upon the Parliamentary draftsmen to frame the Bill in such a way as to secure as nearly as possible that the courts of law will construe the Bill as the House of Commons intends.
If there is to be a construction placed upon a Motion of the House in the same way as the courts do, then every Motion of the House will have to be examined in the light, not of its commonsense interpretation and our experience, but of how the language might be construed by the courts. I challenge hon. Members anywhere to show a single instance of an hon. Member stating that the words "proceedings on the Bill" authorised the Government to introduce a Guillotine Motion on this occasion. It was, therefore, a piece of Parliamentary sharp practice.
Mr. Speaker, when he gave his Ruling, addressed himself to the interpretation of the wording itself outside the context of its relationship to our proceedings and to our experience. Therefore, we are forced now to consider Motions governing the business of the House from a purely legalistic point of view, and that is bound to mean that our proceedings are going to be added to. In fact, we shall have to cross-examine the Government each time in order to find out what they mean by certain phrases or words. In other words, we shall have to examine an ordinary Motion which is a piece of procedural convenience as though it were a piece of legislation. That is not a situation into which we ought to have

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got ourselves. I think it would be a little better if the members of the Government were a little more straightforward with the House and told us at this stage whether they themselves intended to use that language in this way.
The speech that I made last year has been quoted at some length by supporters of the Government, and indeed I do not object. The speech is directly relevant to what is happening today. I suggested that to attempt to force controversial legislation through the House of Commons would bring the members of the Government and the House into collision on constitutional practices. I said:
"Last night and this morning we had one or two illustrations of it, and it is a most serious matter if the impartiality of the Chair and the objectivity of its decisions are called in question as a result of the Government seeking to avoid their own embarrassments."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April, 1952; Vol. 498, c. 2786.]
What happened last year? The Government had introduced pieces of legislation which were offensive to us. They are perfectly entitled to do that, but nobody could suggest that the legislation was relevant to the crisis of the country. They had brought in a Bill increasing the charges on the National Health Service and giving the brewers greater freedom in the new towns. That was the position when we were discussing this last year.
It was perfectly clear that, if we had wished, we could have held up Government business. My hon. Friends had begun to submit the Army Annual Bill to proper examination. The Supplies and Services Bill was to come forward and the Finance Bill was to be considered. There were, therefore, three major Bills last year that the Government needed to have if the business of the nation was to be conducted—the Finance Bill, the Army Annual Bill, the Supplies and Services Bill. The Government could not obtain all three together if the Opposition did not co-operate, but the Opposition did co-operate.
My hon. Friends on this side of the House agreed not to proceed with the consideration of the Army Annual Bill provided that a special committee was appointed for the purpose of recommending its amendment and bringing it up to date, and the Government promised the
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amending Bill before the end of June this year. What have the Government done? I do not blame them now for not having the Bill ready, because the specialist committee considering the Bill have not finished their inquiries, but what have the Government done?
The Government have brought forward this year, without any consultation with the Opposition, an Army Annual Bill of an entirely original character which cannot be amended in any way. We have never seen a Bill like that before. Why is it done? We ought to have had the Army Annual Bill in the ordinary way and then the Government should have come to the Opposition and said, "We have not been able to finish our investigations, the Committee is still sitting and has recommended against having interim legislation. Therefore, we ask you this year to do what you did last year and not consider the Bill in Committee."
Instead of that, the right hon. Gentleman behaves as usual like a trickster, not like the Leader of the House at all. I warn hon. Members that, unless he mends his ways, he will get them into more and more trouble as he goes on. The right hon. Gentleman should not have brought forward the Bill in such a way as to emasculate the proceedings on it, but should have brought forward the Bill in its constitutional and conventional form and then should have sought compromise with the Opposition. Now, for the first time for many years, the Army Annual Bill is to go through the House of Commons once more like a decree, with no opportunity of amending it. That is the second point I want to make, and I suggest to hon. Members that this is not the way to lead the House. If the right hon. Gentleman had heard what I had heard some of his back bench Members saying about him, he would not look so complacent.
The right hon. Gentleman asked today what was a reasonable majority? My right hon. Friend said to the House, as I said last year and I repeat today, that the Government should accept the logic of the Parliamentary situation. They should not introduce controversial legislation unless they are convinced that it is in the urgent interests of the country that such legislation should be passed.
No one can suggest that either transport or steel comes into that category. No

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one can suggest that a steel industry which, under national guidance and ownership, is flourishing would receive any advantages from nationalisation—[Laughter.]—from de-nationalisation. The House is always in a schoolboyish mood at this time. Furthermore, no one could seriously suggest that the de-nationalisation of road transport will make any improved contribution to the economic recovery of Great Britain. In fact, I have not heard anyone at all make such a claim for it. These two Measures are brought forward by the Conservatives at this moment as examples of pure doctrinaire opposition to Socialism. Therefore, we have to examine the matter strictly from that point of view.
The right hon. Gentleman asked what in our judgment was a reasonable majority, and I will try to answer him. He suggested that a reasonable majority is the majority by which the Government are normally sustained; in other words, if the Government can point to a series of majorities in the Lobby then they have a reasonable majority. But that is no definition of a reasonable majority for legislating. A reasonable majority is a majority which the Government need in the normal way of Parliamentary business. In other words, a reasonable majority for a Government is a majority by which they can carry their Bills if those Bills are sent upstairs. If it is necessary to keep all Bills of any importance whatsoever on the Floor of the House of Commons, then such a Government has not got a reasonable Parliamentary majority.
Indeed, hon. Members opposite have given complete evidence of it. One or two of them have complained today that it is not possible for business men on that side of the House to attend Standing Committees, the House of Commons and all-night sittings. In other words, the legislative processes of Parliament are now being subordinated to the business embarrassments of hon. Members opposite. If we proceeded in the normal way, if we had done what we should have done, then we should have sent the Steel Bill and the Transport Bill upstairs.
It is perfectly true that upstairs the Government would be compelled to give more serious examination to the arguments of the Committee, but if they lost important matters, they could put them right on the Report stage; nevertheless
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they would be forced to yield to the pressure of argument, and eventually, if they could not persuade the Committee, they might lose the Bill. But the Chairmen of Committees are now armed with special powers.
When we had a large majority we sent Bills upstairs, and in the case of the Gas Bill the then Opposition kept the Committee going two whole days and two whole nights. Of course, that is how Parliament conducts its business normally when there is a piece of controversial legislation, but in this instance, because the Conservatives have not got a majority, because they do not want to attend to the business of the House properly, they dragoon the House of Commons itself and force us to consider on the Floor of the House what any decent administration would send upstairs.
So we come to the actual facts of the Lords Amendments. This matter is a lot more serious than hon. Members opposite appear to think. In the first instance, I am not primarily concerned about whether it is a Transport Bill, a Steel Bill or whatever it may be; I am concerned with the consequences of what the Government have now done. The Government have adopted the procedure of the Guillotine at this stage of a Bill. My right hon. Friend has already addressed a question to the House, and we want a reply to it. It is: do we now understand that it is the view of the Government that the Lords Amendments stage here is a normal subject for the application of the Guillotine? We want to know. Is that now to be a part of our Parliamentary procedure, because if it is, certain very serious consequences follow?
In the first place, obviously, with a large Conservative majority in the other place, we cannot use the other place in the same way as the Conservatives can. No fair-minded man would deny that. Therefore, if we are the Government we cannot get Amendments to our legislation through the other place because we would not have the majority; the Conservatives could.
It would therefore follow that, if we are to get our legislation through here at all in a reasonable way, the only people entitled to apply the Guillotine to the Lords Amendments stage in the Commons are the Labour Party, obviously, and the only people not entitled

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to apply the Guillotine to this stage of a Bill are the Conservative Party, because if the Tory Party can use the Lords stage of the Bill to introduce important alterations in the Bill and then have the Guillotine in the House of Commons, we are denied proper consideration of the Bill. This, in fact, so biases the Constitution against us that either we are to have the Guillotine and the Conservatives are not to have it at this stage, or the House of Lords must go as a revising Chamber.
Dr. Morgan: Answer that.
Mr. Bevan: It is not correct to say that it has not been used radically to amend a Bill on this occasion. I am now going to quote from the speech of Lord Leathers in the House of Lords. He said:
"I am informed that nearly a hundred Amendments out of a total of 211 on the Order Paper will have been incorporated in the Bill in its passage through your Lordships' House and, of these, over thirty must rank as major or important items."
This is not us, this is the spokesman of the Government speaking. He went on:
"No mean achievement. The time was certainly usefully spent. As I said at the beginning of our proceedings at the time of the Second Reading, the Government have been ready at all stages, as indeed we should be, to listen to suggestions and have not hesitated to amend the Bill by a proper response to public opinion."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 26th March, 1953; Vol. 181, c. 314–5.]
In other words, on the authority of the spokesman of the Government in the House of Lords, the Lords have had an opportunity on this Bill denied to the Commons.
I therefore ask hon. Members to try to address themselves seriously to the argument. I repeat it merely for the purpose of the record, because I want to proceed to a more substantial point. If it is the fact that the nature of the constitution and composition of the Lords favours the Tories as against Labour, do they consider this is a fair way of using the procedure? It must mean, it seems to me, that we have to give consideration to the relationship between the House of Commons and the House of Lords; otherwise, the House of Lords will have become not merely a piece of rearguard action by the Conservatives against our legislation, but a means by which the Conservatives can thwart the will of the elected House of Commons.
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There is a further consideration that arises from the insistence of the Government to force legislation through the House of Commons despite the fact that they have a small majority. I should like hon. Members to consider this for a moment. They have another advantage over us, in addition to the fact that the House of Lords has a Conservative majority. There are sitting in this House, not a large number, but a substantial number, in view of the Government majority, of Conservative Members for Northern Ireland. On one occasion, on 21st April, the Closure was carried in this House by a majority of seven. Nine of the Conservative Members were from Northern Ireland, and the Transport Bill does not apply to Northern Ireland.
I should like hon. Members opposite to think about this, because it was thought about by Sir Samuel Hoare as far back as 22nd June, 1920, when the Government of Ireland Bill was before this House. He said:
"At the same time, I should have thought that after the date of Union, when Ireland will, as we hope, be really managing its own affairs, Irish representation here should cease altogether, and that we should not be faced with the anomaly of Irishmen interfering in the local affairs of England, Scotland and Wales, whilst English, Scotch and Welsh Members will have no say in the local affairs of Ireland."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd June, 1920; Vol. 130, c. 2042.]
So not only are we to be denied—
Mr. J. R. E. Harden: I wish to make one point. If the right hon. Gentleman objects to the Members of the Ulster Unionist Party voting on behalf of the Government, surely he must also object to the Irish Nationalists and the Independent Labour Members voting against them?
Mr. Bevan: All I am pointing out here is that had it not been for the assistance of nine hon. Members from Northern Ireland the Government would have been defeated. Therefore, the second point arises, that if the Government insist on forcing legislation through this House with a narrow majority such as they have, it may also be necessary to consider the constitutional relationship between us and Northern Ireland. So that hon. Members may have some appreciation of the mischief arising from the behaviour of the Leader of the House and the Prime Minister—[Interruption.]

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I promised to sit down before long, but if there is much interruption I shall go on.
In his speech today the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House said that we ought not to worry about this, because major legislation has passed through the House of Commons by as much as a small vote of one, and he mentioned the Reform Bill. One can appreciate the nostalgia of the right hon. Gentleman. He seems to forget that at that time it was carried because of a division in the Conservative ranks. It was a Conservative Government, and he seems to have forgotten the circumstances surrounding it.
When the right hon. Gentleman spoke about the fact that demonstrations against the Transport Bill in the country were not largely attended, and therefore that was evidence of the popularity of the Bill, I was reminded of the story of the king who told his advisers it was not true that he was unpopular, because he had just been driving through the streets and nobody had tried to shoot him. After a majority of one had carried the Reform Bill in the House of Commons, it then went to the House of Lords and, according to "The Second Tory Party, 1714-1832" by Feiling:
"At five in the morning of the 8th the Lords performed their 'peculiar function' successfully by a majority of 41, which included 21 bishops. The division among the Tories did not, however, correspond to any distinction between Pitt's peers and older creations, for the majority contained many of the oldest Cavalier-Tory families, Beaufort and Finches, Abingdon, Bathurst, Legges, Churchills, and Bagots."
However, in the meantime there was an election and the Wigs got a majority in the House of Commons of 198 and then the problem was how should the majority be broken:
"Not by the creation of peers, which the King would not yet accept. By violence or by revolution, then? So it seemed likely, all this autumn and early winter. Wellington was mobbed, Londonderry knocked senseless by stones …"
which was unnecessary because he was senseless before—
"the bishops burned in effigy, noble carriages pelted. At Nottingham a crowd deliberately burned Newcastle's property. The Napoleons of Poole Harbour planned an attack on old Eldon's Dorset House in flat-bottomed boats. Attwood's Birmingham Union, 100,000 strong, swore they would pay no taxes till Reform passed. More dangerous and undisciplined unions were drilling, and buying arms."
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The noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) in his speech today said, "We have been able to use our small majority on this occasion to waive our privileges in favour of the Lords and when we have a larger majority we can waive more." The is what the noble Lord said. What the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House is now doing is promoting a piece of legislation not merely as a consequence of Parliamentary embarrassment but in accordance with the deep-seated principles of the Conservative Party.
The Conservative Party is fundamentally authoritarian and has never been a democratic party at all. It hates having to submit its legislation to the will of the people and it is seeking by Parliamentary trickery to hand back to the House of Lords powers we have taken away from the Lords. We say to them when they try to do that, that means the end of the Lords.
9.24 p.m.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) for cutting short his historic reminiscences in order to fulfil a private promise he kindly made to me. I am glad to rise in a House composed of Members from all parts of the United Kingdom. Had the right hon. Gentleman been present when we were discussing for 17 days the Transport Bill he would have heard me say to his colleague, the hon. Lady the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet), that I regretted that I could not accept an Amendment in her name to use the definition of "local authority" from the Town and Country Planning Act, because that Act passed by Members on all sides of the House and from all parts of the United Kingdom, did not apply to Scotland.
I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that a little study of Parliamentary legislation in recent years would show that hon. Members from all parts of the United Kingdom have joined together in devising legislation which, in some cases, may not apply to one particular part of the United Kingdom.
We have had today a very interesting debate, which has culminated the debates we have had on the Transport Bill, all of which, as hon. Members well know, have

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been held on the Floor of the House of Commons.
The hon. Member for Fulham, East (Mr. M. Stewart), if I understood him aright, complained that this Bill should have been discussed upstairs, and he appeared to think that Conservative Members of Parliament who were not diligent in their Parliamentary affairs were to blame. He put forward a most curious argument. He said that it was because Conservative Members of Parliament had other things to do apart from sitting in the House of Commons. I do not want to spend too long on this argument, but, going round the country, nothing impresses me more than the constant fear by thoughtful people that Members of Parliament on both sides are in danger of becoming specialists in Parliament alone—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."]—and that the ranks of those who mix with the lives and occupations of the general public are getting thinner all the time.
I do not for a moment accept the argument of the hon. Gentleman, and that was the reason why the Bill was not sent upstairs. We made our position quite plain on this matter when, in December, 1946, the Transport Bill which became the Act of 1947 was discussed in the House of Commons. On that occasion, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary moved that the Bill should be committed to a Committee of the whole House, and the quotation can be found at column 2056 of Vol. 431 of the OFFICIAL REPORT.
It was our view then, and it is our view now, that a Bill of this importance should be discussed on the Floor of the House of Commons and I am authorised to say that, whatever our majority had been, we would have recommended to the House to discuss this Bill on the Floor of the House itself.
Mr. S. Silverman: Why the Guillotine, then?
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Clement Davies) said quite rightly that, if these charges were serious—the charges made in the second of the Opposition Motions, because they have changed their minds within 24 hours
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and brought in a second edition; they are always ridiculing the Government about two Bills, but we have had two Motions within 24 hours—they were indeed very serious, and I wholly accept what he said. If, indeed, it was true that Her Majesty's Ministers had acted contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, then it would be a very serious thing.
I have listened today with only a brief interruption to all the speeches that have been made, and I have heard again the same arguments that were used last week on the proposal to bring to a reasonable conclusion the discussion on the Lords Amendments. The hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) said that the Government had inserted new principles and had used the Guillotine to see that they were not discussed at all, and the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) went so far as to say that never had Parliament been so wholly excluded from the formation of a Bill as it went along.
I think that the complaint made against myself as Minister and against the Government in general was that we were changing our minds too often as the result of Parliamentary discussion. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton said that Parliament had never been so excluded, but I think it fair to say that Parliament has never been brought into such close and continuous contact with the moulding of a Bill as on the various stages of the Transport Bill.
Mr. Bevan Mr. Bevan rose—
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I cannot give way to the right hon. Gentleman. I have a great deal to say.
Hon. Members: Give way.
Mr. Bevan: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I thought he was going to answer the argument put by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery and myself about the constitutional point before going on to the Bill itself. What I want to know is this. When the Government introduced the Guillotine Motion last November, was it in their mind that the language they used included the power to apply the Guillotine at this stage?
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I was going to deal with that point. If only the right hon.

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Gentleman had not been so anxious to keep off the Transport Bill itself and to prevent the Minister getting up, I would have arrived at that point even a little sooner. The right hon. Gentleman asked me—and I am now coming to the point— to deal with the constitutional position and not to deal very much with the Transport Bill. I can quite understand his own personal reluctance, and, indeed, his inability to give the House an accurate account of the long days and sometimes nights that we spent discussing the Bill.
I shall, of course, deal with the constitutional position as I go along, but I must relate it to the Transport Bill as it is because we are accused of having violated the Constitution over the Transport Bill that the House is now being asked to censure us. It is unavoidable that I shall try to show as I go along how the Amendments to which exception has been taken—their failure, in fact, to be considered in large measure —sprang from the will of the House of Commons itself.
It would be quite unrealistic to deal with this Motion of censure without dealing with the Transport Bill. The right hon. Gentleman asked me whether we had it in mind last November, at the time when the original Motion was put on the Order Paper, that we would be confronted with a situation of this kind— [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—whether we had it in mind to use it for Guillotining the Lords Amendments.
As no doubt the right hon. Gentleman knows, this was one of the two occasions during the 17 days we discussed the Bill when he was in the House. He will see from the speech of my right hon. Friend the Leader fo the House on 27th April that this power was there to deal with unanticipated developments. My right hon. Friend said it was
"a general precautionary power for varying and supplementing, if need be, that Order. It was made to deal with any situation which might arise. I think it was Mr. Speaker, and not one of those who raised points of order, who used the phrase: 'to cover unanticipated circumstances.' That is exactly what we are dealing with today, unanticipated circumstances."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th April, 1953; Vol. 514, c. 1806.]
That is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman. If we had had any indication last November that there would be this
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filibustering on the Lords Amendments, then, quite clearly, that provision would have come to our minds as being suitable for that eventuality. That eventuality was provided against in this part of the Motion, and it was there to deal with unanticipated circumstances.
Mr. H. Morrison: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman two short questions? [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] They will not take up too much time. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members opposite are only wasting time. First, if this was in the mind of the Government, why did they not say so at the time? Secondly, if, on the other hand, this was to deal with unknown and unanticipated situations, is that not an admission that the Government had no intention of applying the original Order for the Lords Amendments?
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Before I reply to the right hon. Gentleman may I explain that my reluctance to give way in future will not be due to any fear of embarrassment which the question might cause, but solely because I have a good deal to say which, in the interests of those hon. Members who have followed the Transport Bill throughout, ought to be put on record.
To the right hon. Gentleman I would say this: I did not say that we had it in mind in November to use it in these circumstances. What I said was that it was there to deal with unanticipated circumstances. We had no knowledge then that the Opposition would so use a gap in our Parliamentary procedure to hold up proper Parliamentary business. The result is that this provision can now legitimately be called in aid, as it has been, to apply to proceedings under the Bill as it had applied earlier to the stages of the Bill.
The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale—and I am glad to get back again to this point, because he made it with great emphasis—said he had never heard anybody say in the debates that the Transport Bill was in the national interest.
Mr. Bevan: No.
Mr. Lennox-Boyd: This is on record; "Urgent national interest," or words to that effect. We can follow it out tomorrow in HANSARD—[Interruption.] What the right hon. Gentleman said was heard quietly, and I commend that to

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hon. Members behind him. He said that legislation to deal with urgent national interest might be legitimate—I am paraphrasing what he said—if there were a small majority. Had the right hon. Gentleman been present throughout the 17 days on which we have discussed the Bill he would have heard repeated claims by the Government, supported by the Government with supporting facts, that the Bill is in the national interest.
The right hon. Gentleman has made a series of charges, which are gross exaggerations, against the conduct of the Government in connection with the Bill. I should like to refer him to what he said only a few days ago, on 23rd April:
"With the Steel Bill it … completely reverses the whole tendency of social legislation in Great Britain."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd April, 1953; Vol. 514, c. 1598.]
That is the most arrant nonsense. If the right hon. Gentleman looks at his own Act of 1947, the Labour Party's Transport Act, he will see what I mean.
Over the weekend the right hon. Gentleman was speaking about advertising and television and I was interested to read some words which he used:
"It would be a good thing for individuals to have a bit more time for reflection, to read a good book, for their minds to lie fallow and to have more time for their superficial grey matter to settle down."
I recommend a good book to the right hon Gentleman: it is HANSARD, Vol. 437. From it he will see what was transferred to public ownership in 1947–60 railway undertakings, 52,000 miles of track, one-and-a-quarter million wagons, 45,000 passenger coaches, about 34,000 commercial lorries, 20,000 locomotives, 25,000 horse-drawn vehicles, 70 hotels, 1,600 miles of canals and 100 steamships.
How much of this great quantity of transport is being touched by the Transport Bill? Merely 30,000 lorries and their property and equipment, with the possibility, in the passenger bus undertakings, of the controlling share holding being lost to the Commission. To talk about a Measure of this kind as completely reversing the whole tendency of social legislation is the grossest exaggeration.
The next charge made by the right hon. Gentleman was that this Bill had been subjected to a very rigid Guillotine and
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had never been properly examined. If he casts his mind back to his own Bill of 1947 he will find that Clauses affecting pensions and compensation, superannuation rights, all the charges machinery, and the Schedule relating to the Transport Tribunal, under which the present fare rises are now being considered— were none of them discussed in the House of Commons. If our Guillotine was rigid the right hon. Gentleman's Guillotine was a complete strangulation. The right hon. Gentleman added:
"Mere voting on whether one agrees with a Bill or not is very little removed from Government by decree."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 23rd April, 1953; Vol. 514, c. 1602.]
But that is exactly what happened in 1947—can I have the right hon. Gentleman's attention for a moment?—when, with a majority of 150, they Guillotined the then Transport Bill in Committee upstairs.
The right hon Gentleman then said that the Minister
"… is deliberately leaving out great chunks of the Bill from discussion in the Commons." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd April, 1953; Vol. 514, c. 1598.]
That is the grossest misstatement. The only two great chunks were the companies Clause which was discussed for 21 hours and the capital loss Schedule largely consequential upon it, but if he cares to look back to the Transport Bill in 1947 he will find that a considerable number, four or five, of Amendments in the Lords occupied, in some cases, three pages, and others two, of the Notice Paper of the House of Commons. Clearly, it is impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to sustain the argument that the power of legislative initiative has passed to another place.
The right hon. Gentleman also said that the proper function of the Lords is to clean up a Bill and give it verbal felicity or to fulfil promises made in the Commons, and that it was not to introduce entirely new principles in major alterations and he added that a vast number of the Amendments made in the Lords go much farther than that. This is wholly untrue. I propose in the time available to show why. The right hon. Gentleman has got it into his head, or affects to have got it in his head, that when there is a Conservative Government the House of Lords initiates Tory legislation.

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I have been re-reading lately with great profit the right hon. Gentleman's own book called, "In Place of Fear," and if he turns to page 13, I think it is, he will find there a description of people he describes as "symbol worshippers," people who worship symbols. He names free enterprise and a capitalist society, and one might add, constitutional outrage, power of the Lords, or anything else. The right hon. Gentleman says there:
"The words persist when the reality which lies behind them has changed."
He describes how
"The people used to using words of this kind become themselves the prisoners of their description."
From that point he says:
"Our ideas have degenerated into a kind of folk lore which we pass round fondly thinking that we are still talking of the reality."
The right hon. Gentleman's views are folk lore and bear no reality whatever to what has happened.
Let me deal with the Lords Amendments. Let me first get out of the way the minor drafting Amendments, the cleaning up of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman has agreed that the House of Lords is not a bad place for doing that work. There are 20 of those. There are other minor drafting Amendments making some significant improvements in the wording to clarify the intention or to prevent possible later difficulties of interpretation, introducing no new principle at all. There are another 10 of those. That is 30 of the Amendments. Then we come to the Amendments with Privilege. There are seven Amendments which relate to Privilege, and it is claimed by the right hon. Gentleman and the Motion that the action of the Government is detrimental to the privilege of the Commons.
Let me briefly deal with those seven Amendments. Two of them are purely drafting Amendments. The Privilege Amendments affect, directly or indirectly, the incidence or amount of the levy, but only in this very small way: not the total quantity of the levy, because that does not fall on the Exchequer, but only that part of the levy which the Government or local authorities pay as owners of transport. I shall not go into details because time does not allow, but the amount of money involved in this is very limited indeed, and if I am asked questions about it I would
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normally have done my best to deal with it had more time been available.
The next Amendment in the Privilege list gives the Commission an additional six months' interest on their capital loss. This was asked for by the Commission, and I imagine that it is not repugnant to the Opposition. It puts a very small extra cost on the Exchequer or local authorities, only in their capacity as owners of transport. It is calculated that it might be a once-for-all payment of about £11,000. I do not believe that there is much of a constitutional outrage there.
The next Privilege Amendment gives the right to a greater number of local authorities to appear before the Transport Tribunal. This is in reply to a request made to me by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Sir G. Hutchinson). It is clearly right and proper, and more people, substantial users of transport, and representative authorities, will now have the right of appeal to the Transport Tribunal. I think other hon. Members will agree that this is fair. But because it may throw a fractional amount of money on the block vote, the Exchequer will pay local authorities it is strictly Privilege.
The only other Privilege Amendments raise the "ceiling" of the levy from one to 1½ tons, and only apply there in the case of the Government and local authority users of transport. This was vehemently urged on both sides of the House, and has been agreed to by the Government. I do not think, therefore, that one can seriously argue that there has been here any breach of Privilege which is in any way something that the House should not have waived. The aspect of all the Amendments which led to Privilege have infringed entirely so subsidiarily the main purpose of the Amendments that the case for waiving Privilege was, I think, overwhelming.
Then there are three further Amendments which entirely meet points raised by the Opposition in the House of Lords. I take it that we are entitled to claim some credit for that. After all, the Labour Party made 63 Peers when they were the Government of the day, so presumably they do attach some importance to another place. These three Amendments deal both with the value to the purchaser of assets transferred and questions relating to the Disposal Board and,

331
most important of all, relating to the maximum size of the Commission.
I should like to refer the right hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) to the fact that it was in another place that the Government were obliged to have on the Commission two members specially conversant with Scottish affairs. These three Amendments met entirely points put in the Upper House by supporters of the Labour Party.
Another three Amendments deal with points raised by the Commission—and raised in some cases too late for me to be able to deal with them before the Bill left for the other House. A further eight Amendments deal with matters which go some way—and some may say a long way—to meet the arguments put forward either by the Commission or by the Opposition, either in this House or in the other place. The biggest of them, of course, deals with the companies Clause. We have already had 21 hours discussion of that Clause. Another which we had quite a discussion about obliges the Board to set out directions given them by the Minister in their annual report.
Another was warmly welcomed by the then Lord Chancellor, Lord Jowitt, and alters the phrasing in regard to "too few hands." The companies Clause alone occupied, as the House knows, a very considerable part of our discussion, so I think it would be wrong to say that that was not properly examined in the House of Commons. Then there are two other Amendments which are purely explanatory and in which Members were interested and about which, given the time that discussion would have allowed us to give, they would have had clear satisfactory answers. Finally, when dealing with the Amendments, there are about eight issues where it could fairly have been argued that the House of Commons needed fuller information before it made up its mind.
These eight Amendments I shall deal with very briefly. One dealt with the application of the Transport Tribunal which I mentioned under Privilege. One dealt with the new Schedule on capital loss, which I also mention under Privilege, and which, incidentally, gives another £2 million to the Commission,
332
which was asked for by them and pleaded for by the other side. Another one limits the number of vehicles for which the Commission are entitled to get automatic licences, and another one deals with the restrictive covenants which, otherwise, would have prevented people who had been working in road haulage from re-entering the road haulage industry.
A further Amendment also deals with the railway reorganisation scheme, and I think that it is a great pity that so much time was taken up in deliberate obstruction in the earlier days which has prevented us from being able to deal properly with the railway reorganisation proposal. Now, as was pointed out earlier, in this discussion, if actions of the kind to which we have been forced to take our own preventive measures are to be resorted to, no Government would feel able in future to put forward into a debate in the Lords anything which gave expression to the general ideas thrown up in the House of Commons.
I say this to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery, that if it were possible that the Bill could be in its final form before it goes to the House of Lords then it would be extremely difficult either for that House to play its proper part in legislation or for any Minister to give proper regard to suggestions put forward on the Report stage or the Third Reading of the Bill in the House of Commons.
It is, unhappily, clear, too, that the Opposition were determined from the start, when the Lords Amendments came up for discussion, to see that they were not properly discussed. I can claim without fear of contradiction that practically all the Amendments where there might have been expected to be a difference of opinion on party lines have been in favour of the Opposition and not of the party in power. No one, I think, can seriously claim that limiting these proceedings when we had limited altogether the stages of the Bill is in any degree whatever improper.
Hon. Gentlemen may have differing views as to why the Opposition, at the eleventh hour, decided to put more vigour in their attack on the Transport Bill. Perhaps it may come from sources of this kind. The "Daily Worker" said last week:
"No real fight was put up against the sellout Bill."

333
This no doubt has been echoed in a large number of letters to hon. Members until the last lap in the House of Commons, and Labour M.P.s share responsibility for this situation.
I do not wholly agree that Members of the Labour Party have not contributed useful ideas to this Bill in its various stages. They have, and I am very grateful to them. I believe that the Bill has been improved as a consequence. I take back nothing that I have said before about the value of consultations of this kind. But, lately, people who have taken no part whatever in the discussions on the Transport Bill have interested themselves in the Lords Amendments. [Interruption.] I should be grateful if the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale would listen to me at least for these concluding words.
On the day of the Third Reading in this House, when I made a number of general observations, the right hon. Gentleman was—I do not blame him for it—in Delhi. On the day that the Bill went to the House of Lords for Second Reading he was in Calcutta, getting tied up as to whether he had ever used the phrase "third force." When the Committee stage of the Bill opened in the Lords, the right hon. Gentleman was in Rangoon, and this is what he said:
"The Government in Britain are in office, but they are not in power."
He was very busy then. When he got back to England, three days after the Lords had finished their Report stage, he made other observations, dismissing, in a visit of three weeks, the work of countless thousands of Indian civil servants.
While the right hon. Gentleman has been so busy elsewhere, he has not
followed our debates. Had he been here he would have had an opportunity of seeing at every stage how full regard has been paid to the views of Members on both sides of the House—[Interruption.] —and how the Bill in its various stages has profited enormously by advice from all quarters. The right hon. Gentleman might with profit read the concluding words of the "Times of India," with which his departure was noted:
"Only a very false guide would attempt to chart the future by misinterpreting the past when he has had every opportunity of reading it aright."
The right hon. Gentleman, like all authoritarians, never leaves anybody in any doubt as to what he wants to do. My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. H. Nicholls) quoted a statement made by the right hon. Gentlemen when the National Health Service Bill was under discussion here, when he said that the Government ought to abandon Bills which were uncongenial to the Opposition and he said that they would oppose certain Bills, whatever the constitutional embarrassments might be.
It is this gospel which the right hon. Gentleman has reaffirmed today which is contrary to the spirit of the Constitution —[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—and so, I think, the vast majority of his fellow countrymen feel. I ask the House, with confidence, to reject the Opposition Motion and to vote for the Government Amendment.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 265; Noes, 294.

Division No. 166.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Clunie, J.

Adams, Richard

Bing, G. H. C.

Coldrick, W.

Albu, A. H.

Blackburn, F.

Collick, P. H.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Boardman, H.

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

Bowles, F. G.

Cove, W. G.

Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

Brockway, A. F.

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

Crosland, C. A. R.

Awbery, S. S.

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Bacon, Miss Alice

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Cullan, Mrs. A.

Baird, J.

Burke, W. A.

Daines, P.

Balfour, A.

Burton, Miss F. E.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Bartley, P.

Callaghan, L. J.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Carmichaer, J.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Bence, C. R.

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

Champion, A. J.

Deer, G.

Benson, G.

Chapman, W. D.

Delargy, H. J.

Beswick, F.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Dodds, N. N.

Donnelly, D. L.

Kinlay, J.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwish)

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Ede, Rt. Hen. J. C.

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Ross, William

Edelman, M.

Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

Royle, C.

Edwards, John (Brighouse)

Lewis, Arthur

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Nest (Caerphilly)

Lindgren, G. S.

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Short, E. W.

Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

Logan, D. G.

Shurmer, P. L. E.

Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

MacColl, J. E.

Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

McGhee, H. G.

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Fernyhough, E.

HcGovern, J.

Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

Fienburgh, W.

Mclnnes, J

Skeffington, A. M.

Finch, H. J.

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Slater, Mrs, H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

McLeavy, F.

Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

Follick, M.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Foot, M. M.

McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

Forman, J. C.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Snow, J. W.

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Sorensen, R. W.

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Freeman, John (Watford)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Sparks, J. A.

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Mann, Mrs. Jean

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

Manuel, A. C.

Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Gibson, C. W.

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

Glanville, James

Mason, Roy

Stross, Dr. Barnett

Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Mayhew, C. P.

Swingler, S. T.

Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

Mellish, R. J.

Sylvester, G. O.

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield)

Grenfell Rt. HN. D. R.

Messer, F.

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Grey, C. F.

Mikardo, Ian

Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

Mitchision, G. R.

Thomas, David (Aberdare)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly)

Monslow, W.

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Griffiths, William (Exchange)

Moody, A. S.

Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

Hale, Leslie

Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Morley, R.

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Thornton, E.

Hamilton, W. W.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

Timmons, J.

Hargreaves, A.

Mort, D. L.

Tomney, F.

Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

Moyle, A.

Truner-Samuels, M.

Hastings, S.

Mulley, F. W.

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Hayman, F. H.

Murray, J. D.

Usborne, H. C.

Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

Nally. W.

Viant, S. P.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Wallace, H. W.

Herbison, Miss M.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

Watkins, T. E.

Hewitson, Capt. M.

O'Brien, T.

Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

Hobson, C. R.

Oldfield, W. H.

Holman, P.

Oliver, G. H.

Weitzman, D.

Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

Orbach, M.

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Houghton, Douglas

Oswald, T.

Wells, William (Walsall)

Hoy, J. H.

West, D. G.

Hubbard, T. F.]

Padley, W. E.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

Paget, R. T.

Wheeldon, W. E.

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

White, Mrs, Eirene (E. Flint)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Palmer, A. M. F.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Pannell, Charles

Wigg, George

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Pargiter, G. A.

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Parker, J.

Wilkins, W. A.

Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

Paton, J.

Williams, David (Neath)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Peart, T. F.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Janner, B.

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

Popplewell, E.

Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

Jeger, George (Goole)

Porter, G.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.)

Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Proctor, W. T.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Jones, David (Hartlepool)

Pryde, D. J.

Wyatt, W. L.

Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Yates, V. F.

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Rankin, John

Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

Keenan, W.

Reid, William (Camlachie)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Kenyon, C.

Rhodes, H.

Mr. Pearson and

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Richards, R.

Mr. Arthur Allen.

King, Dr. H. M.

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

NOES

Aitken, W. T.

Baker, P. A. D.

Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Alport, C. J. M.

Baldwin, A. E.

Bennett, William (Woodside)

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Banks, Col. C.

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

Barber, Anthony

Birch, Nigel

Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

Barlow, Sir John

Black, C. W.

Arbuthnot, John

Baxter, A. B.

Bossom, A. C.

Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

Beach, Maj. Hicks

Boyle, Sir Edward

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

Braine, B. R.

Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton)

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

336

337

Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristiol, N.W.)

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H

Hirst, Geoffrey

Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Osborne, C.

Brooman-White, R. C.

Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

Partridge, E.

Browne, Jack (Govan)

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Bullard, D. G.

Horobin, I. M.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

Peto, Brig. C. H. M

Burden, F. F. A.

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Peyton, J. W. W.

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Howard, Hon. Grevill (St. Ives)

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Campbell, Sir David

Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

Carr, Robert

Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

Pitman, I. J.

Cary, Sir Robert

Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

Powell, J. Enoch

Channon, H.

Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Profumo, J. D.

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

Jennings, R.

Raikes, Sir Victor

Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L.

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Rayner, Brig, R.

Cole, Norman

Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

Redmayne, M.

Colegate, W. A.

Jones, A. (Hall Green)

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

Remnant, Hon. P.

Craddock, Beresford (Speithorne)

Kaberry, D.

Renton, D. L. M.

Cranborne, Viscount

Keeling, Sir Edward

Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Kerr, H. W.

Robertson, Sir David

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Crouch, R. F.

Lambton, Viscount

Robson-Brown, W.

Cowder, Sir John (Finchley)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Langford-Holt, J. A.

Roper, Sir Harold

Crowder, Petre (Ruislip-Northwood)

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Cuthbert, W. N.

Leather, E. H. C.

Russell, R. S.

Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

Davidson, Viscountess

Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Deedes, W. F.

Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

Digby, S. Wingfield

Lindsay, Martin

Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Linstead, H. N.

Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Llewellyn, D. T.

Scott, R. Donald

Donner, P. W.

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Doughty, C. J. A.

Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Shepherd, William

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

Drayson, G. B.

Low, A. R. W.

Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

Drewe, C.

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond)

Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Snadden, W. McN.

Duthis, W. S.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

Soames, Capt. C.

Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M.

McAdden, S. J.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

McCallum, Major D.

Spearman, A. C. M.

Erroll, F. J.

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

Speir, R. M.

Fell, A.

Macdonald, Sir Peter

Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

Finlay, Graeme

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

Fisher, Nigel

McKibbin, A. J.

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

Stevens, G. P.

Fletcher-Cooke, C.

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

Ford, Mrs. Patricia

Maclean, Fitzroy

Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

Foster, John

Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

Storey, S.

Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Studholme, H. G.

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

Summers, G. S.

Gammans, L. D.

Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Markham, Major S. F

Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Glyn, Sir Ralph

Marples, A. E.

Teeling, W.

Godber, J. B.

Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Gough, C. F. H.

Maude, Angus

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Gower, H. R.

Maudling, R.

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Graham, Sir Fergus

Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

Gridley, Sir Arnold

Medlicott, Brig, F.

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

Mellor, Sir John

Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Molson, A. H. E.

Tilney, John

Hall, John (Wyoombe)

Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Touche, Sir Gordon

Harden, J. R. E.

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

Turner, H. F. L.

Hare, Hon. J. H.

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Turton, R. H.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

Molt-Radclyffe, C. E.

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Vane W. M. F.

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Nicholls, Harmar

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

Harvey, Air Cdre, A. V. (Macclesfield)

Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

Vosper, D. F.

Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

Harvie-Watt, Sir George

Nield, Basil (Chester)

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

Hay, John

Noble, Cmdr, A. H. P.

Walker-Smith, D. C.

Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Nugent, G. R. H.

Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

Heald, Sir Lionel

Oakshott, H. D.

Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

Heath, Edward

Odey, G. W.

Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C

Henderson John (Cathcart)

O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

Watkinson, H. A.

Higgs, J. M. C.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Wellwood, W.

Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

Wills, G.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

Wood, Hon. R.

Sir Herbert Butcher.

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

York, C.

Question put, "That the proposed words be there added."
The House divided: Ayes, 293; Noes, 264.

Division No. 167.]

AYES

[10.11 p.m

Aitken, W. T.

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Erroll, F. J.

Lindsay, Martin

Alport, C. J. M.

Fell, A.

Llewellyn, D. T.

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Finlay, Graeme

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

Fisher, Nigel

Lloyd, Maj-Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

Arbuthnot, John

Fletcher-Cooke, C.

Low, A. R. W.

Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

Ford, Mrs. Patricia

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

Foster, John

Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

Astor, Hon. J. J.

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Baker, P. A. D.

Fraser, Sir lan (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

McAdden, S. J.

Baldwin, A. E.

Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

McCallum, Major D.

Banks, Col. C.

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

Barber, Anthony

Gammans, L. D.

Macdonald, Sir Peter

Barlow, Sir John

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Baxter, A. B.

George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

MeKibbin, A. J.

Beach, Maj. Hicks

Glyn, Sir Ralph

Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

Godber, J. B.

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

Maclean, Fitzroy

Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

Gough, C. F. H.

Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfied, W.)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Gower, H. R.

MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

Bennett, William (Woodside)

Graham, Sir Fergus

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Gridley, Sir Arnold

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Birch, Nigel

Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Black, G. W.

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

Bossom, A. C.

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Harden, J. R. E.

Markham, Maj. S. F

Braine, B. R.

Hare, Hon. J. H.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

Marples, A. E.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

Maude, Angus

Brooman-White, R. C.

Harvey, lan (Harrow, E.)

Maudling, R.

Browne, Jack (Govan)

Harvie-Watt, Sir George

Maydon, Lt.-Comdr S. L. C.

Bullard, D. G.

Hay, John

Medlicott, Brig. F.

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Mellor, Sir John

Burden, F. F. A.

Heald, Sir Lionel

Molson A. H. E.

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Heath, Edward

Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Campbell, Sir David

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

Carr, Robert

Higgs, J. M. C.

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Cary, Sir Robert

Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Channon, H.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

Hirst, Geoffrey

Nicholls, Harmar

Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L.

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Nield, Basil (Chester)

Cole, Norman

Horobin, I. M.

Noble, Cmdr. A.H.P.

Colegate, W. A.

Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

Nugent, G. R. H.

Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Oakshott, H. D.

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

Odey, G.W.

Cranborne, Viscount

Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (llford, N.)

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Crouch, R. F.

Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

Orr-Ewing, Charles lan (Hendon, N.)

Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

Orr-Ewing, Sir lan (Weston-super-Mare)

Crowder, Peter (Ruislip—Northwood)

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Osborne, G.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Jennings, R.

Partridge, E.

Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Davidson, Viscountess

Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

Perkins, W. R. D.

Deedes, W. F.

Jones, A. (Hall Green)

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Digby, S. Wingfield

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Peyton, J. W. W.

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Kaberry, D.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Keeling, Sir Edward

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

Donner, P. W.

Kerr, H. W.

Pitman, I. J.

Doughty, C. J. A.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Powell, J. Enoch

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

Lambton, Viscount

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Drayson, G. B.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

Drewe, C.

Langford-Holt, J. A.

Profumo, J. D.

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond)

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Raikes, Sir Victor

Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

Leather, E. H. C.

Rayner, Brig. R.

Duthie, W. S.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Redmayne, M.

Eccles, Rt. Hon. O. K.

Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

Rees-Davies, W. R

Remnant, Hon. P.

Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

Turton, R.H.

Renton, D. L. M.

Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S)

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Vane, W. M. F.

Robertson, Sir David

Stevens, G. P.

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

Vesper, D. F.

Robson-Brown, W.

Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

Roper, Sir Harold

Storey, S.

Walker-Smith, D. C.

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

Russell, R. S.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

Ryder, capt. R. E. D.

Studholme, H. G.

Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Summers, G. S.

Watkinson, H. A.

Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

Wellwood, W.

Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

Scott, R. Donald

Teeling, W.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

Shepherd, William

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Wills, G.

Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

Wood, Hon. R.

Smyth, Brig, J. G. (Norwood)

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

York, C.

Snadden, W. McN.

Thornton Kemsley, Col. C. N

Soames, Capt. C.

Tilney, John

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Spearman, A. C. M.

Touche, Sir Gordon

Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

Speir, R. M.

Turner, H. F. L.

Sir Herbert Butcher.

NOES

Acland, Sir Richard

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

Janner, B.

Adams, Richard

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

Albu, A. H.

Edelman, M.

Jeger, George (Goole)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Edwards, John (Brighouse)

Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.)

Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

Jones, David (Hartlepool)

Awbery, S. S.

Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Bacon, Miss Alice

Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Baird, J.

Fernyhough, E.

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Balfour, A.

Fienburgh, W.

Keenan, W.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Finch, H. J.

Kenyon, C.

Bartley, P.

Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Follick, M.

King, Dr. H. M.

Bence, C. R.

Foot, M. M.

Kinley, J.

Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

Forman, J. C.

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Benson, G.

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Beswick, F.

Freeman, John (Watford)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham).

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

Bing, G. H. C.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

Lewis, Arthur

Blackburn, F.

Gibson, C. W.

Lindgren, G. S.

Boardman, H.

Glanville, James

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Bowles, F. G.

Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Logan, D. G.

Brockway, A. F.

Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

MacColl, J. E.

Breok, Dryden (Halifax)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield)

McGhee, H. G.

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

McGovern, J.

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Grey, C. F.

McInnes, J.

Burke, W. A.

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Burton, Miss F. E.

Griffiths, William (Exchange)

McLeavy, F.

Buller, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

Hale, Leslie

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Callaghan, L. J.

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvll (Colne Valley)

McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

Carmiehael, J.

Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Hamilton, W. W.

Mainwaring, W. H.

Champion, A. J.

Hargreaves, A.

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Chapman, W. D.

Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Chetwynd, G. R.

Hastings, S.

Mann, Mrs. Jean

Clunie, J.

Hayman, F. H.

Manuel, A. C.

Coldrick, W.

Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Collick, P. H.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

Mason, Roy

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Herbison, Miss M.

Mayhew, C. P.

Cove, W. G.

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Mellish, R. J.

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Hobson, C. R.

Messer, F.

Crosland, C. A. R.

Holmas, P.

Mikardo, lan

Crossman, R. H. S.

Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

Mitchison, G. R.

Cullen, Mrs. A.

Houghton, Douglas

Monslow, W.

Daines, P.

Hoy, J. H.

Moody, A. S.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Hubbard T. F.

Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

Morley, R.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Mort, D. L.

Deer, G.

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Moyle, A.

Delargy, H. J.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Mulley, F. W.

Dodds, N. N.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Murray, J. D.

Donnelly, D. L.

Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

Nally, W.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

Ross, William

Turner-Samuels, M

O'Brien, T.

Royle, C.

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Oldfield, W. H.

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Usborne. H. C.

Oliver, G. H.

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Viant, S. P.

Orbach, M.

Short, E. W.

Wallace, H. W.

Oswald, T.

Shurmer, P. L. E.

Watkins, T. E.

Padley, W. E.

Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

Paget, R. T.

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Weitzman, D.

Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

Wells, William (Walsall)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Skeffington, A. M.

West, D. G.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

Pannell, Charles

Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

Wheeldon, W. E.

Pargiter, G. A.

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

Parker, J.

Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Paton, J.

Snow, J. W.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Peart, T. F.

Sorensen, R. W.

Wigg, George

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B

Popplewell, E.

Sparks, J. A.

Wilkins, W. A.

Porter, G.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Williams, David (Neath)

Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll')

Proctor, W. T.

Stross, Dr. Barnett

Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

Pryde, D. J.

Swingler, S. T.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Sylvester, G. O.

Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

Rankin, John

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Reid, Thomas(Swindon)

Thomas, David (Aberdare)

Wyatt, W. L.

Reid, William (Camlachie)

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Yates, V. F.

Rhodes, H.

Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

Richards, R.

Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Thornton, E.

Mr. Pearson and

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

Timmons, J.

Mr. Arthur Allen

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Tomney, F.

Resolution agreed to.

Resolved,
That this House deplores the action of the Opposition designed unduly to delay legislation by attempting, on consideration of Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill, to re-open the general principles of a Bill which had already been passed by both Houses of Parliament and condemns such manceuvres as detrimental to the dignity of the House of Commons and the proper discharge of its business.

COASTAL FLOODING (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) [MONEY] (No. 2)
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for work for defence against sea water in localities affected by the flood of January, 1953, and to provide for the rehabilitation of agricultural land flooded with salt water, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of expenditure authorised by the said Act in making acreage payments for the purpose of promoting the rehabilitation of agricultural land that has been damaged by salt water.

CARDIFF DOCKS (TRADE)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Kaberry.]
10.22 p.m.
Mr. David Llewellyn: It would be ungenerous of me if I did not begin this evening by expressing my appreciation of my hon. Friend's frequent visits to Cardiff, and I hope he will not think it churlish of me if I voice the hope that his evident interest will lead to manifest action.
The decline in the trade of Cardiff docks continues. Comparing 1952 and 1951 imports fell by 370,000 tons. Exports, happily, increased by 263,000 tons, but the decrease in total trade was 117,000 tons. In terms of shipping arrivals, 287 fewer vessels docked. To bring the results up to date, between 1st January and 22nd March, 1953, compared with the corresponding period in 1952, there was a fall of 42,000 tons, and comparing the period 1st January to 19th April the fall has been 77,000 tons. For some years trade has been well under 50 per cent. of the 1938 level, which was itself a poor year.
Expressing the decline in terms of unemployment, one finds that in June, 1951, of 878 workers on the Cardiff docks' register the average number unemployed

345
per day was 190. Today, out of 786 workers on the register the figure is 208. It has been rightly said that in the port of Cardiff the dockers represent an aristocracy of labour. We certainly have a fine record of industrial peace and restraint that underlines the unhappiness of the present position. I suggest that it is a poor reward for the great war-time achievements, when Cardiff disproved the old-fashioned prejudice that she was ill-fitted to handle general cargo.
I turn to three factors which govern the waste of Cardiff's potential. First is the factor of inadequate roads. The improvement in communications to the Midlands represents a major need, although I think that the Minister is deserving of more help than he sometimes gets in this direction in the absence of a precise list of priorities being presented to him. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell the House what plans he has in mind for the time when the financial situation further improves.
Secondly, there is the factor of the loss of coal exports. I should like to compare the figures for the port of Cardiff for 1938 with those for last year. In 1938, foreign exports were 7,353,000 tons; in 1952 they were 1,406,000 tons. For foreign bunkers the figures were 1,557,000 tons in 1938 and 236,000 tons in 1952. It has always been my hope that once it was decided to embark on nationalisation of the coalfields, nationalisation would succeed and that part of the success would be measured in terms of trucks of coal at Cardiff docks. I am sorry that that hope has not yet been fulfilled. In the meanwhile, I urge my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport to keep in close touch with the Ministry of Fuel and Power to ensure that the National Coal Board allocates a fair share of coal for export to Cardiff docks. I am glad to see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power is present.
It is a fact that the decline from Cardiff's pre-war share of total shipments from the South Wales coalfield is 9½ per cent. and that, with eight coal shipping appliances at Cardiff out of commission, the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive are transferring appliances from
346
South Wales to ports on the East Coast. It is no answer to say that the coal is not available. Cardiff's plea is for fair shares of what is available.
This would be melancholy enough but, on top of it all, comes France's recent decision to cut purchases of coal, coke and patent fuel to vanishing point. That is a regrettable decision so soon after the Chancellor's travel concessions. I am sorry to say it, but I believe that this is part of the Schuman Plan. It coincides at least with the growing influx of Belgian coal into France and also heavy French investment in the German coalfields. It would be unwise to assume that this is merely a transitory phase. It will be within the recollection of the House how economic nationalists argued what a bad thing it would be if a supranational authority could close a British coalfield. It may prove more serious to Cardiff and the South Wales ports if the operation of the Schuman Plan dams the flow of Welsh coal to its traditional European markets.
The third factor is that it costs more in rail charges to carry the great bulk of traffic between Cardiff and the rest of the country than it does in the case of other ports. It is no part of my task to apportion blame for this among the Railway Executive, the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive, the late Government or the present Government. The fact remains, and I hope that, in his reply, the Minister will tell the House what the Government plans to do about it.
Lastly, and looking ahead, I want to say a few words about the improvement of the Cardiff docks entrance channel to enable Cardiff docks to cater for the ever-increasing size of tonnage. As my hon. Friend knows, there is sporadic silting, caused by the erosion of the banks and the discharge of coal dust waste and refuse into the non-tidal part of the Taff, and, secondly, erosion of the mud banks of the tidal section of the Taff, consisting mainly of the east and west mud flats. He will also know that Cardiff Port Development Association set up a special committee to look into this.
They recommended that the course of the Taff from the vicinity of Clarence Road Bridge to the confluence with the Cardiff deep water channel entrance should be contained within training

347
walls, and, as an outcome of this, 420 acres now covered by the east and west mud flats would be reclaimed. I believe that the vicinity of Clarence Road Bridge is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan)— all except the water; at any rate a good deal of the mud is in his constituency. I should like to thank the hon. Member for his generous attitude towards my trespassing in his field, if he so regards it, but, as he is aware, it affects us all in Cardiff very deeply.
Before embarking on a scheme of this character, there is obviously need for a special survey, and it has been estimated that the cost of that survey would be between £8,000 and £10,000. Unfortunately, the Hydraulics Research Station at Wallingford cannot undertake this scheme for some years. Therefore, as recommended by Sir Claude Inglis, it has been decided that a preliminary investigation should be made by a private firm of consulting engineers.
There would be at least three very large beneficiaries from a scheme of this kind. First, there would be the Cardiff City Corporation. They would not only benefit from the reclamation of the mud flats but they would also benefit because the city's and the port's welfare is interdependent; and the Cardiff City Corporation have agreed to make a donation of £2,000 towards the cost of this survey. The Docks and Inland Waterways Executive would benefit, of course, through the saving in dredging costs, among other factors, but I am sorry to say that so far their attitude has been non-committal, and they have promised no financial support.
Third, the Government and the nation would benefit on economic and social grounds, and also on strategic grounds. I am sorry to say that I am informed that the Government have expressed either an unwillingness or an inability to help. Had the creators of the docks in South Wales shown a similar attitude, I believe the docks would have been unequal to the challenges of the Industrial Revolution and two world wars. I earnestly ask for a reconsideration of that decision.
Perhaps I may briefly sum up the five points. It would be of great practical help, first, if a major scheme for better
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communication with the Midlands were put into effect; and second, if the Minister were able to direct the Transport Commision to grant South Wales rates and charges which would place our ports at no disadvantage by comparison with those in operation to and from other United Kingdom ports. The third point is that there should be fair shares of the coal that is available for export.
The fourth is that we should have some share—we get none at the moment—of the stores and equipment for the United States Forces in this country. During the war 25,000 ships with these stores came into Cardiff, and 26 million tons of cargo were brought in. I ask my hon. Friend to examine this point with his colleagues and to ask whether there is not some chance of an ordnance depot being set up in Cardiff, perhaps on Pengam Moors, whose future use is under consideration. If that were done trade from America would come naturally into Cardiff, and on strategic grounds alone that would be of certain advantage, both to the United States and ourselves. Fifth, I ask my hon. Friend to persuade the Minister to make some contribution towards the cost of the expert survey.
I have deliberately tried to raise this matter tonight in a non-party spirit and in no spirit of partisanship at all, because I do genuinely believe that the prosperity of Cardiff docks and of Cardiff's citizens is at stake, and that if decisions are not taken now they may well be too late in a year or even a few months' time. If nothing is done I fear that Cardiff's great resources will be wasted and that her accumulation of skill, experience and enterprise will be lost. If that were to be the fate of Cardiff, neither party in this House would be free from blame.
10.38 p.m.
Mr. James Callaghan: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Llewellyn) on raising this matter. I can assure him I take no narrow vested interest in the future of Cardiff docks. I agree with him it is much too important a matter to be regarded from a purely parochial angle. I have never resisted allies in this field, no matter what I may think of them in other connections. I am only too happy that the hon. Gentleman has raised this matter, although as a matter of geographical curiosity I

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observe that the islands of Steepholm and Flatholm both come in the ward of Adamstown, so that I have some title to claim the sea between the docks and the islands.
I think there has got to be some twist in the pattern of trade if Cardiff docks are to get a greater share in the trade of the country, and I think it has to be a deliberate twist. It can be given only if the Government are prepared to take some particular action. I would attach greater value to some of the hon. Gentleman's points than to others, obviously, but I have always held that in the development of industry under the appropriate legislation already passed there should be some great industry brought into Cardiff to bring a regular flow of ships there.
I fear I am not as optimistic as the hon. Gentleman is that we are going to get a substantial return of the coal export trade. No one would be more pleased than I if it came about, but in 1945 when I made my first speech there I told the dock workers it was of no use to expect any substantial increase of the coal export trade there for many years. We must develop general cargo trade. I should like to see arrive some great industry that would bring a regular flow of ships into and out of the docks. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will have some word of comfort and hope for us tonight that Cardiff will get what we regard as Cardiff's due. We want the maximum help that we can get from the Government.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. S. S. Awbery: I want to say one word about an industry affecting the ports of South Wales which is seldom mentioned in this House. It is an ancillary industry to the coal industry, namely, the patent fuel industry, in which I spent 10 years of my life. Prior to the First World War we exported from from the ports of South Wales two million tons of patent fuel. That two million tons has now dropped to approximately 50,000 tons. There was one factory in Newport, two in Cardiff, one at Port Talbot and six at Swansea producing briquettes from small coal mixed with pitch.
That industry has become obsolete, but there is a possibility of reviving it. We
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exported this patent fuel to Argentina in order to pay for the meat we were receiving, to the West Coast of South America for the railways and to France and Italy. I am convinced that this industry can be revived. There is small coal available to mix with the pitch, and it only means utilising the factories that are there, or rebuilding those that have become derelict, in order to revive a rather important industry. About 2,500 were employed in those four ports. I just pass that on to the Parliamentary Secretary for his consideration.
10.46 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Gurney Braithwaite): The remarks of the hon. Member for Bristol. Central (Mr. Awbery) make me all the more grateful to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power for attending this debate. That is a matter which he has heard raised and to which he has listened carefully, and he tells me that he will give it his attention and communicate with the hon. Gentleman.
I have had the privilege of paying two visits to the city of Cardiff since I assumed office, and I would agree with a great deal of what has been said both by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Llewellyn) and the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), who must have been greatly concerned with the problem when occupying the position in the Ministry of Transport which I now hold. The whole background of the problem is, of course, familiar to him, apart from his constituency affiliations.
I shall give the House only one or two figures. There are many that could be given in connection with Cardiff, but I shall not suggest that too many deductions should be drawn from those which I give. I merely think it is mildly encouraging to find that, whereas in 1951 coal exports amounted to 1,220,000 tons, in 1952 they increased to 1.514,000 tons. Of course, both those figures compare in melancholy fashion with the tonnage that used to be handled in the port of Cardiff in other times.
Exclusive of coal, Cardiff handled more trade last year than in the pre-war period. The figures for 1952

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were 1,697,000 tons against 1,634,000 tons in 1938—a small increase, but an increase for all that in the handling of general cargo, exclusive of coal— and 1952 was the year in which imports were deliberately restricted by Government policy. There are, therefore, I think, some hopes that trade will increase —I am not talking now of coal; I am coming to that aspect in a minute—as restrictions on imports are lifted both here and abroad.
In addition, the recent agreement made with Argentina, under which this country is to supply 800,000 tons of coal, may assist Cardiff, one feels, since in pre-war days most of the coal to South America was shipped from South Wales, and we must all hope that Cardiff will get a share of that trade. Moreover, the building up of general cargo trade has persuaded shipping companies to increase liner calls to South Wales. For instance, in April last year—and I am sure my hon. Friend is familiar with this—Messrs. Furness Withy announced a new monthly service from Cardiff to the Pacific Coast. In the same month the Holland Steamship Co. added Cardiff to their Amsterdam—South Wales route, and the Bristol Steam Navigation Co. also fixed Cardiff as a scheduled port of call for their Rotterdam service.
Coming to the general problem, I wonder whether the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East, when he was at the Ministry of Transport, made the same deductions as I have made from a study of this problem. This ties up with something which he let fall a few moments ago. I have always felt, paradoxical as it may seem, that one of the best methods of assisting the port of Cardiff—and Barry too, for that matter—lies in road development and communications with England, and the Midlands in particular.
As the hon. Member and my hon. Friend well know, the whole question of communications in South Wales and with England, which, of course, would cover Cardiff, is now being actively examined by the Committee under the chairmanship of the hon. Member's successor, the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Welsh Affairs, Lord Lloyd, which, as the Home Secretary announced in the Welsh debate on 22nd January last, has been set up to advise the Government of specific
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measures necessary to modernise the area and to consider methods of attracting new industries. I need hardly say that the Committee have been in touch with my Department and that we have put before them certain possibilities; but the House will appreciate that I cannot make any detailed statement of Government action as regards road communications in this area while the whole matter is under review by Lord Lloyd and his colleagues. It is, however, a matter on which they are working very hard.
I am frequently asked in these debates whether initiated from the point of view of Scotland, Wales or, indeed, England, to make some statement as regards the priorities in these matters as and when funds become available for road improvement. I am always in the difficulty that the priorities of 1953 may well not be the priorities of 1954 or 1955. I cannot give a better example than the effect upon our priority programme of the floods on the East Coast earlier this year, which caused us to alter many of our ideas as to what should come first. Therefore, I am afraid that I cannot be drawn on that matter.
I should like to say a word or two about the really serious blow which has fallen upon Cardiff, to which my hon. Friend referred, through the announcement of the French import restrictions. As the House knows, the French Government recently announced a considerable reduction in the volume of French purchases of coal from the United Kingdom in the second quarter of 1953, notably anthracite duff. On 20th April, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, replying to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower), said that the National Coal Board informed him that they did not expect to have any difficulty in finding other markets for the coal that France had decided not to buy during that period.
On 27th April my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs stated in a written answer to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North that representations had been made to the French Government, who had replied that the reduction in coal imports was the result of considerable easing of demand in France, but that they hoped it would be

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possible before long to restore imports to their former level. I hope, therefore, that there is some reason for hope that Cardiff will not suffer unduly.
There are, of course, natural fears regarding the outcome of the Schuman Plan—
Mr. Callaghan: Hear, hear.
Mr. Braithwaite: —and the recently announced cuts in coal imports by France have been cited as evidence of its level of effect. It is, however, too early yet to say how, if at all, this plan will affect exports of coal and steel from South Wales. Hon. Members are wise to be apprehensive about this. That is natural, but it is too early to say just what the effect will be. My hon. Friend will recall that, in reply to a Question which he put to my Minister on 16th February, he was told that my right hon. Friend saw no reason why the Schuman Plan should have adverse effects on the volume of trade in coal and steel at the South Wales ports.
Under the new Transport Bill the British Transport Commission will have considerable latitude within the maximum charges scheme to make such adjustments as they think proper, and on the enactment of that Measure the existing statutes requiring equality of treatment in regard to railway charges and prohibiting undue preferences will cease to apply. It is, of course, a matter for the Commission, but they have there an opportunity of assisting Cardiff.
Mr. Callaghan: Does the Parliamentary Secretary know that the British Transport Commission are going to bring in a new charges scheme? Will they now be ready to deal with Cardiff exceptionally? Do they want to deal with the country as a whole or with Cardiff exceptionally?
Mr. Braithwaite: I did not say that they would deal with Cardiff exceptionally but that they would be given latitude under the new Bill and that it was the sort of thing they should consider.
As regards the United States Forces, I will pass on to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence the suggestion which was made, but I am not acquainted with the facts.
I should like to say a word about the problem of silting, to which my hon. Friend referred. This is being diligently examined by the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive on behalf of the Transport Commission. The problem of Cardiff is one not merely of increasing silting but also of the increasing size and draft of vessels, which has affected many other United Kingdom ports. This would not be solved by deeper dredging. Even if the £1 million training wall scheme were put into effect, it would have to be associated with the reconstruction of the docks themselves, which would put them out of action for a long period, with obvious reactions upon employment. There are, of course, other Bristol Channel ports which have to be taken into consideration, such as Swansea, Newport, and not forgetting Avonmouth, of which I have a certain knowledge.
Mr. Awbery: Does the hon. Gentleman know that there is 14 feet of silt outside the Barry entrance? Will he consider that matter?
Mr. Braithwaite: I am aware of that.
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock, and the debate having continued for half-an-hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Eight Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

  ARMY APPRENTICES SCHOOL, BEACHLEY
  ARMY APPRENTICES SCHOOL, BEACHLEY
  OVERSEAS IMPORTS (CROSLAND REPORT)
  OVERSEAS IMPORTS (CROSLAND REPORT)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Married Women (Post-war Credits)
  Married Women (Post-war Credits)
  Non-Wool Textiles (Tax)
  Non-Wool Textiles (Tax)
HOUSING
  Artistes and Musicians
  Artistes and Musicians
  Unfit Dwellings
  Unfit Dwellings
  Advances
  Advances
  Accommodation Exchange, Camberwell-Croydon
  Accommodation Exchange, Camberwell-Croydon
  Old People's Dwellings
  Old People's Dwellings
  RATING, NEWPORT
  RATING, NEWPORT
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Westminster Abbey (Visitors)
  Westminster Abbey (Visitors)
  Manton Down Barrow (Damage)
  Manton Down Barrow (Damage)
  PRESCRIPTIONS, DENTAL TREATMENT AND APPLIANCES
  PRESCRIPTIONS, DENTAL TREATMENT AND APPLIANCES
  DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN (VICTORIA REPAIR CENTRE)
  DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN (VICTORIA REPAIR CENTRE)
  FLOOD AREAS (DRAINAGE RATE RELIEF)
  FLOOD AREAS (DRAINAGE RATE RELIEF)
  SLAUGHTERHOUSE, DERBY (REOPENING)
  SLAUGHTERHOUSE, DERBY (REOPENING)
  CHINESE SCHOOLS, MALAYA (CLOSING)
  CHINESE SCHOOLS, MALAYA (CLOSING)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Lord Mountevans—Took the Oath.

RUSSIAN WEAPONS IN INDO-CHINA
2.35 p.m.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask whether, seeing that the Communist invaders of Laos are armed with weapons of Russian design made in China, Her Majesty's Government will consider with the French Government the possibility of representations at Moscow and Pekin against the synchronisation of fresh aggression with professions of peace.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING): My Lords, the fact that arms originate in a certain country does not necessarily implicate the Government of that country in the use which is made of them. Nevertheless, in the present case it is difficult to avoid the presumption of some degree of complicity. Her Majesty's Government are, of course, deeply concerned that at a time when there have been a few encouraging signs of improvement in the international situation, this fresh aggression should have taken place; but they do not consider that representations in Moscow and Pekin would be advisable at the present moment. Incidentally, the French Government are not represented in Pekin.
LORD VANSITTART: I thank the noble Marquess for his answer and I fully appreciate the reasons he gives. At the same time, I hope he will also appreciate that it is difficult for some of us to find exaggerated hopes in the return of thirty-two soldiers when this naked aggression is going on under our very noses.

LAOS INVASION AND KOREAN TRUCE TALKS
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any evidence, and if so what it is, that the Government in Moscow prompted the recent invasion of Laos and that it is in fact associated with the Korean truce talks.]
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no direct evidence that the Government of the U.S.S.R. prompted the recent invasion of Laos, nor am I in a position to say that there is any direct association between the invasion of Laos and the Korean Truce talks. The invasion of Laos has clearly been under preparation for many months, and must have been set in motion before the death of Marshal Stalin and the developments which have followed.
LORD VANSITTART: Has not the French Commander in Laos said that the Chinese assistance to the invaders has been stepped up in the last few months and that Czech mortars are being used in the process of the aggression?
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I would not pledge my word as to whether or not that exact expression had been used. All I would say was that there was no direct connection between the invasion of Laos and the Korean truce talks. That is our view.
LORD VANSITTART: But the point I was endeavouring to make was that Czech mortars do not drop from Heaven and that they would not be able to be got to Laos without the connivance of both the Chinese and the Russian Governments.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, in these days of parachutes all sorts of weapons of war are dropped from Heaven.
LORD VANSITTART: I think that is a rather thin answer.

BRITAIN AND INDO-CHINA
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether this country has any obligations under the San Francisco Charter to participate in the war in Indo-china.]
THE MARQUESS OF READING: No, my Lords, such obligations could arise only out of a decision by the Security Council under Chapter 7 of the Charter, "Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Aggression." Under Article 25 members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out such decisions.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I thank the noble Marquess for his Answer to my question which I shall read in connection with a statement issued by N.A.T.O. about ten days ago which appeared to be usurping the functions of the Security Council.

AUXILIARY FORCES BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments and Orders in Council relating to the Territorial Army and the Royal Auxiliary Air Force with such corrections and improvements as may be authorised under the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure) Act, 1949; and to move that this Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in the name of my noble friend the Leader of the House.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXI be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of giving the
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Third Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill precedence over the Second Reading of the Pharmacy Bill.—(Viscount Swinton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

TRANSPORT BILL
2.42 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the Commons Amendments to certain of the Lords Amendments read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE CO-ORDINATION OF TRANSPORT, FUEL AND POWER (LORD LEATHERS): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Leathers.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, it is not the intention of noble Lords on this side of the House, when the time comes, to do other than agree with the Motion that the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendments be agreed to, but I hope that I may have the indulgence of your Lordships to make one or two observations on the Motion to consider the Amendments. It was from this side of the House that the first words were spoken on the occasion of the introduction of the Government's transport policy almost a year ago. Your Lordships will remember that on that occasion I begged and pressed the Government to consult fully with the British Transport Commission before they formulated legislation to deal with the policy as outlined in the White Paper. Unfortunately, that was not done; and the story that followed has, I think, been an unfortunate one. Legislation was introduced and with drawn. Fresh legislation was then introduced. Then, when the Government saw—and, let it be said here and now, to the great credit of the Minister in another place—that it was absolutely imperative, to satisfy public demand and allay disquiet, the Transport Commission were consulted, and the Bill underwent a radical alteration. What a pity, my Lords, that the whole of this country's transport should go through this upheaval without having the steadying influence of that consultation which, twelve months ago almost to the day—it was on May 15 of last year

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—we on this side of the House begged the Government to give!
It has been an unhappy experience and I want to say frankly—and I think the whole country agrees with me—that the Government do not come out of this transport debate with a great deal of credit. They have misjudged public opinion and they have misjudged the needs of the country. Their real difficulties are only just starting, and I can only hope that after the Bill receives the Royal Assent to-morrow, as we anticipate it will, and the administrative difficulties become apparent, the Government will have in their minds only one thought—that is, the good of the country as a whole and not the good of any section of the community to which specious electioneering promises have been made.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS TO CERTAIN OF THE LORDS AMENDMENTS
[The references are to Bill (31) as first printed by the House of Lords]

LORDS AMENDMENT
Clause 2, page 4, line 18, at end, insert—
("The report for any period shall set out any direction given by the Minister to the Board during that period")
The Commons agreed to the above Amendment, but proposed the following Amendment thereto:—
In line 2 of the Lords Amendment, at end, add ("and any action taken by the Board in compliance with such direction.")
LORD LEATHERS: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons Amendment shown first on the Paper. Your Lordships will remember that during the Committee stage of the Bill the Government accepted Lord Silkin's suggestion that the reports of the Road Haulage Disposal Board should set out any Ministerial directions. The Amendment now proposed provides that the reports shall also set out
"any action taken by the Board in compliance with such direction."
The Government are willing to accept this additional wording, and I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment to the Lords Amendment.—(Lord Leathers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT
After Clause 4, insert the following new clause:
Transfer of property to companies with a view to the sale of their shares
(".—(1) If it appears to the Commission that it is expedient that any property held by them for the purposes of the existing road haulage undertaking should, instead of being disposed of under section three or section four of this Act, be disposed of under this section and that such disposal will not prejudice the purposes to which the Commission are to have regard under subsection (3) of the said section three, they may make over that property, together with any such rights or obligations of theirs as in their opinion can conveniently be made over therewith, to a company under their control in the shares of which no other person than they themselves have any beneficial interest, with a view to the subsequent sale of the shares of the company:
Provided that the Commission shall not exercise their powers under this subsection without the approval of the Board, and the Board shall not give their approval unless it appears to them that the proposed course of action is expedient and will not prejudice the purposes to which the Commission are to have regard as aforesaid.
(2) Where any property is made over to a company under subsection (1) of this section it shall be made over at a price equal to the net value thereof as shown in the books of the Commission (but adjusted so as to take into account depreciation up to the time of the making over thereof so far as not already taken into account), increased by the value, if any, as so shown, of any rights of the Commission made over therewith, and decreased by the value, if any, as so shown, of any liabilities of the Commission made over therewith.
In this subsection "net value" means value after deducting depreciation, and the references to values shown in the books of the Commission are references to the values so shown after making, if the Commission, in making up their books for the year nineteen hundred and fifty-two or any subsequent year, depart to any substantial extent from the principles and practice applied by them for the years falling before the year nineteen hundred and fifty-two, all adjustments which are necessary to produce the result which would have been produced but for the departure, and the requirement that the net value shall be adjusted so as to take into account depreciation up to the time of the making over of the property shall be construed as a requirement that the additional depreciation shall be allowed at the rates at which, and in the cases in which, depreciation was allowed under the said principles and practice.
(3) Where the Commission have made over any property to a company under subsection (1) of this section, they shall proceed to the sale of all the shares thereof as soon as is reasonably practicable, and to that end shall, as soon as is reasonably practicable, by public notice invite tenders for the purchase (in one

209
parcel) of all those shares, on conditions specified in the notice or ascertainable, in a manner specified in the notice:
Provided that—

(a) no invitation to tender under this section shall be issued without the approval of the Board; and

(b) if it appears to the Commission that the sale of the shares by tender would be inappropriate and would be unlikely to secure the best possible price for the shares they may, with the approval of the Board, sell the shares (in one parcel) otherwise than by tender.

(4) In determining whether any tender or offer for the shares of any such company as aforesaid is to be accepted or refused, the Commission shall have regard to the desirability of avoiding any step which is likely to lead to the elimination or undue restriction of competition in the carriage of goods by road for hire or reward, but no such tender or offer shall be refused wholly or mainly on the ground that it is likely to lead to the elimination or undue restriction of such competition as aforesaid without the consent of the Minister.
(5) No tender or offer for the shares of any such company as aforesaid shall be accepted or refused by the Commission without the approval of the Board, and the Board shall not approve the acceptance of any such tender or offer unless they are satisfied that the price is a reasonable one having regard to the value of the company's undertaking and the rights conferred by the subsequent provisions of this section.
(6) If any difference arises between the Commission and the Board under this section, the Commission or the Board may refer the matter to the Minister and the Minister shall give such directions as he thinks fit and any directions so given by him shall be binding on the Commission and the Board.
Where Scotland is affected, the Minister shall consult the Secretary of State for Scotland before giving any directions under this subsection.
(7) Where property is made over to a company under subsection (1) of this section, section twelve of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933 shall have effect as if—

(a) the company were and at all times since the passing of this Act (or since its incorporation, whichever is the later) had been a subsidiary company of the Commission and the Commission were and at all times since the passing of this Act had been the holding company thereof;

(b) the Commission, in every application made for a licence under Part II of the First Schedule to this Act, being an application made before the making over of the property, had signified to the licensing authority their desire that the provisions of the said section twelve should have effect as respects the company;

(c) the reference in subsection (1) of the said section twelve to Part I of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, included a reference to section fifty-nine of the Transport Act, 1947,
210
subsections (1) to (5) of section six of this Act and Part II of the First Schedule to this Act:

Provided that this subsection shall have effect in relation to a company only as respects the period preceding the date on which its shares are transferred in pursuance of the sale thereof under this section.
(8) Where the shares of a company are transferred in pursuance of the sale thereof under this section, the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect as if the company had, at the time of the transfer of the shares, purchased as or as part of a transport unit all the vehicles owned by it on that date which were then authorised vehicles under an A licence granted to the Commission under Part II of the First Schedule to this Act or were specified in a then pending application for such a licence as vehicles intended to be authorised thereunder and as if all such things had been done as would have fallen to be done if the vehicles had been so purchased; and without prejudice to the generality of the preceding provisions of this subsection, references in the said First Schedule to transport units, to purchasers of transport units and to motor vehicles sold as or as part of transport units shall be construed accordingly:
Provided that—

(a) the total number of trailers specified by virtue of paragraph 2 of Part I of the said First Schedule in applications for special A licences shall not exceed the number of trailers made over under subsection (1) of this section by the Commission to the company;

(b) in paragraph 4 of the said Part I, the reference to the Commission shall be deemed to be a reference to the company and the reference to the publication of the public notice inviting tenders shall be deemed to be a reference to the date of the transfer of the shares.

(9) The Commission, in making over vehicles to a company under subsection (1) of this section, may, by notice to the company, designate certain of those vehicles as additional vehicles, and in that event—

(a) any application by the Commission for an A licence under Part II of the First Schedule to this Act and any licence granted in pursuance of any such application shall lapse so far as it relates to any motor vehicles so designated, but without prejudice to the substitution of any such vehicle for another vehicle in accordance with the provisions of the said Part II;

(b) the Commission shall give all such notices and make all such applications as are necessary to secure that no such vehicle, being a motor vehicle, is included in an A licence so granted, otherwise than by virtue of such a substitution as aforesaid and that any such vehicle, being a motor vehicle, which has been included in such an A licence otherwise than by virtue of such a substitution is removed therefrom;

(c) any such vehicles, being trailers, shall be left out of account for the purposes of paragraph (a) of the proviso to the last preceding subsection.

(10) Any property made over to a company under subsection (1) of this section shall be deemed for the purposes of section five of this Act to have been disposed of as or as part of a transport unit, but if, after any property has been so made over to a company but before the shares of the company have been transferred in pursuance of the sale thereof under this section, any property of the company (whether part of such property or not) is transferred to the Commission, the property so transferred to the Commission shall be deemed for all the purposes of this Act to become property held by the Commission for the purposes of the existing road haulage undertaking and shall be dealt with accordingly.
(11) A company to which property has been made over under subsection (1) of this section—

(a) may dispose of any of its property in the ordinary course of its business; and

(b) may, with the approval of the Board, dispose of any of its property to the Commission,

but, save as aforesaid, may not dispose of any of its property:
Provided that this subsection shall have effect in relation to a company, only as respects the period preceding the date on which its shares are transferred in pursuance of the sale thereof under this section.
(12) Until the shares of any company to which property has been made over under subsection (1) of this section are transferred in pursuance of the sale thereof under this section, any person employed by the company shall be deemed for the purposes of section ninety-five of the Transport Act, 1947 (which relates to terms and conditions of employment of staff), to be employed by the Commission and to be under the direct control of the Commission themselves.
(13) Where a company to which property has been made over under subsection (1) of this section has disposed of all its property, this section shall cease to apply to it unless and until further property is transferred to it under the said subsection (1).")
The Commons agreed to the above new Clause, but proposed the following Amendment thereto:—
In subsection (8), paragraph (a), leave out ("made over under subsection (1) of this section by the Commission to the company") and insert ("in the possession of the company at the time of transfer of the shares")
LORD LEATHERS: My Lords, coming to the second Amendment, I beg to move that this House do not insist on the words of the Lords Amendment which it is proposed shall be left out, and agree to the Commons Amendment in lieu thereof. This Amendment affects subsection (8), line 20, of the new clause which allows disposal of the Road Haulage
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undertaking by way of companies. As the Bill left this House, when companies were being disposed of only that number of trailers which the companies took over from the Commission would have carried an automatic right to "A" licences. The effect of the Commons Amendment is to give that right for all trailers in the companies' possession at the time the shares are sold. This will cover not only the trailers taken over from the Commission but also any extra trailers acquired by companies between the date of the Commission making over the assets and the date of the transfer of the shares. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do not insist on the words of the Lords Amendment which it is proposed shall be left out, and agree to the Commons Amendment in lieu thereof.—(Lord Leathers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT
Clause 23, page 33, line 11, leave out from ("be") to end of line 18, and insert ("fourteen, of whom at least two shall be persons appointed after consultation with the Secretary of State for Scotland as being persons likely to be conversant with the circumstances and special requirements of Scotland;")
The Commons agreed to the above Amendment and made the following consequential Amendment to the Bill:—
Fourth Schedule, page 50, leave out lines 22 and 23.
LORD LEATHERS: My Lords, coming to the third and last Amendment, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons consequential Amendment in the Fourth Schedule, at page 50. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, will remember during the Committee stage the acceptance of one of his Amendments, the effect of which was to re instate the provision of the Transport Act of 1947 that four members of the Commission, in addition to the Chairman, should be full-timers. When that Amendment was made, it so happened that we inadvertently omitted to make a consequential Amendment to the Schedule of the Bill which lists the statutory provisions being repealed. This is therefore no more than a consequential and drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Leathers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PREVENTION OF CRIME BILL
2.49 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD LLOYD): My Lords, this Bill has been fairly fully discussed in your Lordships' House, and I do not think there is a great deal that I need say this afternoon. My noble friend Lord Saltoun has opposed this Bill throughout its passage but, apart from my noble friend and a few supporters, I think that this Bill, in intention at any rate, has secured the general approbation of your Lordships. I believe that it will secure the approbation of the country. Various fears have been expressed about the operation of the Bill, particularly in reference to the law-abiding citizen. We believe that there are adequate safeguards in this Bill for the law-abiding citizen, and we believe that the Bill will be a strengthening to the forces of law and order. We therefore hope that your Lordships will give it a Third Reading this afternoon, so that it may be put upon the Statute Book as soon as possible. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Lloyd.)
2.50 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, by common consent the House has given this Bill an easy passage. I think the fact that we have all helped in passing this Bill shows that the House is absolutely united in trying to stop in any way they can these outbursts of violence which, unfortunately, have marked recent years. There is no question of Party feeling about that at all. I must say that, had there not been such outbursts of violence, I should not have liked this Bill at all. I have a profound regard for our police forces, and I trust them very far; but I do not suppose any one of us would think it desirable to pass an Act of Parliament, for instance, authorising the police to take into custody anybody of whom they did not like the look. Quite obviously, that would be going much too far. Whether or not this Bill goes too far is a matter on which differing opinions may be felt. In my own view,
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having regard to the emergency with which the police are called upon to deal, it does not go too far. At the same time, I very much hope that the Home Secretary will make special note to keep the working of this Bill under observation. If things improve, as I devoutly hope they will, and if it became possible to repeal this Bill and remove it from the Statute Book, then I for one, and I feel the Home Secretary for another, should be only too pleased. In the meantime, the Home Secretary has asked for these powers, and both Houses of Parliament have agreed to give them to him. I can only hope that the process of time will show that the powers are unnecessary. If in fact that proves to be so, then I hope that we shall not hesitate to remove this Bill from the Statute Book.
2.52 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, the first thing I have to do to make a correction in the statement I made to your Lordships on a previous occasion when dealing with this Bill. It was not in Glasgow that schoolteachers made use of water-pistols to save themselves from a sporadic outbreak of hooliganism at night, but in a place not a hundred miles from Glasgow; and it was not quite recently, but some years ago. If anybody in that great city, which I admire and love, and of which I am an adoptive son, has received any annoyance from the attribution to that city of an act which I personally consider honourable, I regret it, and of course I regret having misinformed your Lordships upon that point. I want to say at once that my informant was a man of unimpeachable accuracy, and that it was a mistake on my part, because I committed the error of inferring, from what he said to me, rather more than was actually stated. At the same time, I want to say that I believe the weapon in question was never actually used, because the public knowledge that it was there prevented the crime. My friend wrote to me on the subject, saying:
"I told you at the time, to illustrate the fact that if an aggressor gets the idea that he will meet opposition of an unpleasant character, he will think twice before he acts."
That fact reinforces my fear, which I expressed on another occasion, that this Bill may give an aggressor the assurance that he is very unlikely to meet with opposition.

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My Lords, of course I readily understand that it is impossible for any Government to exhort people to take their own measures to defend themselves. I think that the situation would have to be very much worse than it is to-day to compel the Government to that course; in fact, I think we should reach what the noble and learned Earl who leads the Opposition describes as a "population armed to the teeth"—I think that was the expression he used. On the other hand, the proposition I have repeated twice to your Lordships—that unless there is in the general population not only a right but a willingness to defend themselves, then no police force however large can ever do so—has never been controverted; nor do I think it can be controverted. Here you have a contradiction which, up to now, has been satisfactorily resolved by the common sense of the people themselves. My objection to this Bill, and my complaint, is that it has brought that contradiction to a definite issue and I do not think that the answer here is a good one. At least, I was not very satisfied with my noble friend Lord Lloyd's answer to the conundrum on the last occasion. I am very much afraid that many people, and especially women, will have more fear of the law than respect for common sense, and in consequence will suffer. I have not yet learnt what the Government's attitude or answer to that is. Do they consider merely as a regrettable incident the fact of a few women being coshed?
There is another point—namely, that the citizen is himself a constable, and it is his duty to go to the aid of the police if he is called upon. The constable is armed with his truncheon or cosh, and presumably his opponent is as well or better armed. If I am called upon to go to the help of the police, is it my duty to fling myself into the battle with my bare hands, or am I to say that I will go home and get my cosh and then come back and help them? I have in my pocket a letter. I do not know what truth there is in that letter. It is from a man who received an injury on being called to the help of the police. To that injury he attributes the loss of his sight and his job. He says that he did not get very much compensation, but that he received a beautiful letter of thanks which
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he still retains. That is not really a very satisfactory answer. But if the individual is bound to go to that duty with his bare hands, then I am bound to say that I think the law should have been scrutinised when this Bill was going through. However, the Bill is going through—there is no doubt about that—and therefore there rests upon your Lordships the duty of watching carefully how the Government discharge the new responsibility they have undertaken and, if you are not satisfied, of drawing public attention to it from time to time.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

IRON AND STEEL BILL
2.58 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. Your Lordships will remember that on Second Reading no fewer than seventeen Members of your Lordships' House gave us the benefit of their views; on the Committee Stage we had fifty-seven Amendments on the Order Paper, and on the Report Stage of the Bill there were fifteen Amendments on the Order Paper. So after five full and, I think, friendly days of discussion upon this measure, it is probably fair to say that the Bill has been robbed of any element of surprise.
There is, therefore, very little left to say, save to put forward this one point. In the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, when this Bill arrived in your Lordships' House it was a good Bill, and when it leaves your Lordships' House it will be an even better one. Her Majesty's Government would like to thank those noble Lords who participated, and particularly the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot, and his colleagues on the Benches opposite, for the part they played in improving this Bill: their attitude throughout was, if I may say so, tolerant, well-informed, helpful and constructive. I do not pretend for one moment that this Bill will satisfy all those who believe in the complete nationalisation of all the means of distribution, production and exchange. It is not intended to. I do not pretend for one moment that it will please all those who

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believe in complete and unfettered private enterprise. It is not intended to. The Bill seeks to derive what is best from both systems. The Bill is a combination, we think, of the best and most workable elements of both systems, and the test throughout that we have made is this—not whether any political dogma can be established or whether any political dogma can be pulled down, but whether the measure itself is in the best interests of the iron and steel industry and of the country. That has been the overriding consideration throughout this Bill.
I trust that it is not too much to hope that the good will which has been shown towards this Bill in its progress through another place and through your Lordships' House may now attend upon it when it passes into law and attaches to this great industry. We hope that it will be accepted, by the industry, by all who earn their living in it, and by the country, with the same good will and tolerance that it has been accepted by Parliament. We feel that the Bill provides a firm and sound foundation for the industry, that it will help this happy industry to go forward to further happiness and prosperity. Finally, we believe that this Bill provides, Once and for all, a chance to take politics out of the iron and steel industry and to take the iron and steel industry out of politics. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Mancroft.)
3.3 p.m.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for his characteristically graceful tribute and, indeed, for his courtesy and understanding throughout the passage of this Bill, and for that of his noble leader, Lord Salisbury. I can only say again that, although we on this side of the House have done what we believe to be our duty, and have tried to improve this Bill as best we may, we very much regret the Bill. We regret it mainly because we feel that the Government have unnecessarily gone out of their way again to disturb this great industry and to make it inevitable that, with another change of Government, we shall see another Iron and Steel Bill. If there were, as has been said, imperfections in the Bill which is still on the Statute Book, then time would have
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revealed them and the Bill could have been improved, as time went on, in the knowledge of events and experience. But the Government have chosen the other course, and the responsibility must be upon them. However, I can only say, in seeing the last of this Bill for the time being, that we hope, despite our fears and convictions in this matter, that less harm may be done to this great industry than we fear, and that, despite the action which the Government have taken, the industry will prosper and find a way, not withstanding these handicaps, to discharge its great responsibilities to the nation, upon which so much depends.
3.6 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, this Bill came to us a good one; I think it is leaving us a better one. It satisfies me that it has solved the problem of what one may describe as the battledore and shuttlecock of the industry. Like all thinking people, I am deeply disturbed by the idea of great industries being tossed from side to side over the net like a shuttlecock. At the same time, I am utterly unprepared to accept the doctrine that one Party in the State may gradually, little by little, spread State ownership, while another Party is morally bound not to reverse the position. To my mind—and I feel very deeply on this—such a wide expansion of State owner ship would in the long run bring us to the Communist State, de facto if not de jure.
I believe that a large number of people in the Labour Party would agree with me in those sentiments, but they are very much taken up with the short-term disadvantages of private ownership, as they see them, and they tend to be distracted from this very much longer-term danger. In this Bill, I think moderate Labour can see that they are safeguarded against many of what they regard as the drawbacks of private ownership, without having to risk this long-term danger. If that is the case, I do not see why the problem of the "shuttlecocking" of the iron and steel industry should not be solved for all time. As I say, the Bill provides them with many safeguards. For instance, there is one safeguard which I particularly welcomed. I refer to the provision that there shall be consultation three months before the closing down of any works. And even if the closing down becomes almost inevitable, there is power

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in the Minister's hands to avert that closing by putting up the money to run the works himself, if he should consider that to be the lesser of two evils. The Bill is full of safeguards of that particular nature.
One other criticism of private ownership is that in the future those concerned will not be able to raise the capital necessary to keep great industries modernised and up to date. I am not speaking now of the initial effort, which everyone must agree is an onerous and heavy task. But, provided that we realise that for an industry to be healthy and modern it must be nourished, this industry should be able in the future to raise its own money. In the case of renewals, are we going to suffer for ever a position in which the Inland Revenue compute as profits and take away money which really should be destined to replace machinery? I do not think that that situation is going to last very much longer. As for new capital expenditure, I believe that by a combination of loan capital and equity capital, raised from the public and from the institutions, and from ploughed-back profits, money will be there in future. But it will be there, we must remember, only if we allow the industry to be properly nourished.
Of course, there are other safeguards in the Bill, but I do not propose to detail all of them. Before closing, however, I should like to say a word of thanks to the spokesmen of the Labour Party and the Liberal Party who said kind words about an Amendment of mine on the Report stage. Only strict adherence to the rules of order prevented my rising a second time to thank them then. Finally, I should like to say how much we appreciate the way the Bill has been handled by the noble Marquess the Leader of the House and his able lieutenant, Lord Mancroft. I feel that the latter, at all events, has emerged from his first major encounter with very great credit.
3.10 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, we have had our battle over this Bill, and, thanks very largely to the noble Marquess the Leader of the House and Lord Mancroft, it has been a very good-tempered and good-humoured battle, fought, in fact, with many of the courtesies which used to distinguish battles in the days of armour
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and of chivalry. Now it is over and the Bill is to become an Act, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, that all that remains for us to do at this juncture is to wish good fortune to the iron and steel industry. One must wish an industry of such fundamental, vital importance to the fortunes of this country great prosperity under this dispensation. In connection with both this Bill and the Transport Bill I have expressed on more than one occasion my concern for the prospects of any industry being nationalised, denationalised and renationalised. Without any regard for politics, I do not believe that under such a process as that any industry can possibly prosper but must eventually come to ruin. Therefore, I have always expressed the hope that in the fullness of time we may work out some compromise in these matters. In both the Transport Bill and the Iron and Steel Bill I have, if I may say so, detected traces of a Government wish to meet that point. Here and there I have distinctly seen a certain wish to affect a reconciliation between free enterprise and nationalisation, and it was really in regard to that that I rose to say a few words.
During the proceedings on Committee stage of the Iron and Steel Bill I was much struck by a proposal put forward by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, about the possibility of Government holdings in these companies. There was an interesting discussion on that point, although time did not permit of its being gone into as thoroughly as perhaps it deserved to be. Looking into the future, I hope that that point may be borne in mind, because I feel strongly that it opens out yet another way of effecting a compromise between rival views as to how our industries should be carried on, a compromise which would be of great benefit to the industries themselves. I rise to express strongly the hope that the point put forward by the noble Earl may be carefully considered when other matters of this sort come to be discussed.
3.13 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I think that, as Leader of the Opposition, I should endorse what has been said by the last speaker, Lord Winster, and by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, about the debt which, not for the first time, the House owes to its Leader and to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, because,

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although it is the fact that we differ fundamentally about this Bill, we did agree to differ. Tempers were not ruffled, and that in itself, to my mind, is a great advantage, which we enjoyed largely owing to the noble Marquess, the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and also, in large measure, to my noble friends, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston and Lord Silkin, who spoke for this side of the House. And may it always be so. But do not let it be thought that because our discussions are amicable and friendly that is any indication whatever that we do not feel deeply and sincerely what we are saying.
If you take the view of the prospects of this country that I do, your Lordships will realise how vitally important this matter is. I am not being pessimistic; I think I am being only a realist when I say that this country is faced with a terrific problem. I believe that unless we have an iron and steel industry about as efficient as that industry can be made, our difficulties are going to be much greater. Like coal, iron and steel is a fundamental, a basic, industry, upon which many other industries depend. It must not be looked upon as an industry by itself: it is the underlying base of many other industries. If we are to come satisfactorily out of the trouble which is awaiting us ahead, it behoves us, apart altogether from politics, to make this industry as efficient as human ingenuity can make it. I regard that as vital to our salvation.
Having said that, let me just say this: frankly, my anxiety is that there are too many small concerns. I am not fool enough to pose as an expert—there are many experts in your Lordships' House—but I have given some study to this matter. I believe we ought to have a smaller number of larger concerns. I base my remarks on the recent Report, which is the source of my information. I believe there is an optimum output per works which, speaking from memory, should be round about 1,000,000 tons, whereas the average output per works is round about 300,000tons. That seems to show that if we had fewer works and larger outputs, we should be in a better position. I believe that that is a serious problem which is going to confront the statesmen of this industry and of this country. I am not wise enough to know
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what the answer is, but I know that if you have a large number of rival concerns, each under separate ownership, it is going to prove impossible to bring about those amalgamations or, what is rather more drastic than amalgamations, those shuttings down of works here and there and the enlarging and blossoming out of others, which is the kind of process we may have to face up to.
Lord Keynes once said that the ownership of shares did not matter very much; what mattered was the way in which a concern was managed. That is true with regard to a great number of industries. It was with regard to those other industries and not to iron and steel that I referred to the possibility of joint share holding, about which the noble Lord, Lord Winster, was good enough to make a complimentary reference. I have always felt that in this particular industry—that is, iron and steel—we could not get out of our difficulty on those lines, for we shall have to look at the problem as a whole and reorganise this industry from top to bottom. I feel that to be the trouble. If this industry is to be reorganised, there is a vast amount to be said for the State ownership of shares until the time when the industry has been reorganised. I am very sorry that noble Lords have broken up that idea before the organisation has been started, because, in the process of time and by the force of circumstances, that is the idea you will be forced to adopt. After all, we have seen this occur many times in private enterprise. The Morris and Austin undertakings came together. And I believe that along the lines on which business is conducted to-day, amalgamation will become necessary in the iron and steel industry on an even larger scale. I believe that the force of circumstances will drive us to it.
I confess that I thought this was a bad Bill when it came to this House. I think that, with the alterations your Lordships have made in this House, it is a rather less bad Bill than it was; but I still think it is a bad Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Hawke, appealed to what he called "moderate Labour." He seemed to think that this Bill in its present condition would satisfy moderate Labour. I suppose I am a fair representative of that school of thought. I am bound to tell the noble Lord that this Bill does not in the

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least satisfy me, or those of my school of thought. Though I do not issue any threats, or anything of that sort, I am bound to say that I concur with what the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot, said in his speech just now. It seems to us inevitable that if, in the whirligig of time, a Labour Government is once more restored to power, there will have to be another Bill dealing with the iron and steel industry. I am certainly not going to attempt to forecast the provisions of that Bill now, but I hope that if and when the time does come to introduce such a Bill, statesmen will look at it coolly and deliberately, in the light of the circumstances then existing, to see what needs to be done.
I felt I was bound to say that, because that is the reaction which I have about this Bill. For the rest, I entirely agree that we should keep steel out of politics, and politics out of steel, if that will prevent politicians from interfering with the running of the industry. No sensible Socialist wants to do that at all. We want industries to be run by the people who understand them, and not to have them interfered with at all. I sincerely hope that good luck will attend the iron and steel industry. I hope that all the difficulties which I foresee about getting the necessary capital to make their works really up to date—and in my view they have got to be the best in the world—will not materialise. Along with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, I hope that the tax-gatherers will not prevent them from getting to get her the necessary capital to make their works up to date. However, I must say that I view the future of this great industry, on which so much depends, with real concern and anxiety.
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

PHARMACY BILL
3.23 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I hope, in the course of a comparatively short speech, to be able to commend to your Lordships this quite uncontroversial Bill. I feel that the Bill has the support of Her Majesty's Government; I know that members of the Opposition view it
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favourably, and that it has the support of the Pharmaceutical Society. There is no need for me to remind your Lordships of the work of chemists in the country in general, or of the responsibility which they now have with the arrival of more complicated drugs. It gives me, as a member of a profession which works closely with the chemists, great pleasure to be moving the Second Reading of this Bill in your Lordships' House.
The purpose of the Bill, put rather generally, is to tidy up the law relating to pharmacy, which is complicated and full of rather difficult technicalities. To appreciate that, I should like briefly to go over a little of the past history, which I think will make the Bill more easily understandable. The Pharmaceutical Society was founded in 1841, and obtained a Royal Charter two years later. The Pharmacy Act, 1852, placed upon the Society the responsibility for maintaining a Register of pharmaceutical chemists and of examining candidates who wished to register. Only registered persons could be called pharmaceutical chemists, but there was no compulsion to join the Society. One curious thing about that Act was that registered medical practitioners could not register as pharmaceutical chemists, and any pharmaceutical chemist who became a registered medical practitioner had his name removed from the Pharmaceutical Register.
The Pharmacy Act, 1868, set up a Register of chemists and druggists and the people registered became associates of the Society. One effect of that Act was that only people on these two registers could sell or keep "open shop" for the sale or dispensing of poisons. There was then a third Pharmacy Act, passed in the year 1898, which, among other technical matters, abolished associate-ship of the Society, and enabled chemists and druggists to become members of the Society, whereas previously they could only become associates. In 1908, there was the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, which, among other important things, demanded a certain practical preliminary training for candidates, and at the same time, purely for convenience, divided the examination into two parts. In 1933 there was passed a further Poisons and Pharmacy Act which established a statu-

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tory committee, with power to disqualify and to keep a certain discipline, and which made membership of the Pharmaceutical Society synonymous with being a registered pharmaceutical chemist or a registered chemist and druggist. That, briefly, is the past history of the Society.
I feel that the best way to deal with the Bill is to pass on at once to a consideration of the various clauses, which I believe will be quite easy to understand. Clause 1 of the Bill abolishes the dual Register and deals with the setting up of a single Register in its place. Clause 2 makes it possible for the Council of the Society to appoint the examiners to con duct the examinations, rather than that they should be appointed under the Charter, as was the case under the 1852 and 1868 Acts. That procedure has now become obsolete, and this merely changes it to what has become common practice. Clause 3 of the Bill enables the Society to make by-laws to change the annual Register, and to publish it in other months than January. Clause 4 makes it clear that the Council of the Society can make by-laws requiring candidates for examination to produce certain evidence of practical training and general education, because in the past there was some uncertainty whether the Council could insist on that. Clause 5 enables the Council to register persons holding a degree in Pharmacy which has been given by a university in Great Britain. Such degrees have been granted for some time now, but, by some curious anomaly, people holding degrees in Great Britain could not be on the Register, although under the Medical Practices and Pharmacists' Act, 1947, it was possible for the Council to register persons with a degree from a university outside Great Britain.
Clause 6 extends the scope of the benevolent fund to cover dependants completely. The previous Acts covered merely members or past members, with their widows and children, and did not include certain other dependants who might need assistance from the benevolent fund. Clause 7 does away with the phrase, "students, apprentices or assistants," that phrase having become obsolete—"students"is now the general term. Secondly, it takes away the disqualification preventing registered medical practitioners from becoming registered as pharmaceutical chemists. At the same
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time, it takes away the maximum from the retention fee of £2, which has been the custom in the past, and allows for the amount to be fixed from time to time by by-laws, which will be subject to the approval of the Privy Council. Clause 8 confirms the existing Charter and allows for its amendment. Clause 9 provides for the various amendments and repeals to which I have referred, and provides that until they come into force, the present Act shall continue. Clause 10 is the interpretation clause, and Clause 11 is the short title. The Bill has been exhaustively examined by members of the profession, and it meets with their entire approval. I trust that, with the rather brief outline It have given, your Lordships will be pleased to give the Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Amulree.)
3.32 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, I should like to add my support to what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. This is one of the examples current at the present time of the raising of a particular body of people from one status to another. The Bill improves the status of those who are chemists and who are professionally qualified in that respect. The object of this Bill, of course, is also to remove those anomalies and anachronisms in the Pharmacy Acts, which extend back to 1852, as was mentioned by the noble Lord who introduced the Bill. The intention of this Bill is to prepare for the consolidation of the whole series of Acts which have gone before. It is to disentangle the constitution of the Pharmaceutical Society from its statutory duties. The effect of this Bill will be to put the statutory duties into the Act and the constitution into a new Charter. The Charter is now before the Privy Council and it is hoped to synchronise the appointed day under the Act and the granting of the new Charter.
Clauses 1 and 2 substitute for the two existing statutory qualifications—chemists and druggist, and pharmaceutical chemists—one only, namely, pharmaceutical chemist. The clauses also amalgamate the two existing Registers into one. It is the intention of the Society to make existing pharmaceutical chemists Fellows of the Society, to maintain

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differentiation. The present chemists and druggists will remain members, M.P.S. I mention these facts because they are vitally important in the professional status of the organisation. I must, however, draw the attention of your Lordships to the fact that it is not only in chemists' shops, or with the assistance of qualified people, that drugs can be sold. A very large quantity of drugs are sold at grocers' and other shops. It is true that they are only drugs which are more or less harmless—aspirin and things of that kind—but a large proportion of drugs are, in fact, obtainable in shops in which there is no chemist in attendance. This Bill is one to which I hope the House will give a Second Reading. It has the support of the Ministry of Health and of the Privy Council. It is a step towards further strengthening the Pharmaceutical Society, and so raising the whole profession, as a professional body. It is much to be hoped that the Statute Law Revision Committee will get to work on a consolidation of the Pharmacy Acts.
3.34 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I rise merely to indicate to the House that those associated with me on this Bench are not unfavourable to the passage of this Bill into law. They are somewhat intrigued by the fact that it is a Private Member's Bill, because when we have been reorganising or reconditioning other professional organisations it has been chiefly by Government Bills. We hope, however, that, notwithstanding the fact that this is a Private Member's Bill, the work which will accrue from it will be equally good with that of the others.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I rise, as one who was responsible for the passing of the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908, which was then a highly controversial measure, to say that I entirely concur in the amendment of that Act which is to be effected by this Bill.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, we have already discussed two measures this afternoon which may be considered as highly controversial, but they were both discussed in a very amicable manner. I am glad that it falls to my lot to continue that measure of agreement and friendliness, and to say, on
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behalf of my right honourable friend the Minister of Health, that not only does he fully support this Bill but he has given every facility possible from his Department to help its passage. With those few words, I bless the Bill on behalf of the Government.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

POWERS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS
3.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE VISCOUNT STANSGATE rose to call attention to the new powers and responsibilities accruing to this House in consequence of recent changes in legislative procedure; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the Motion on the Order Paper for the consideration of the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendments to the Transport Bill, prompted me to offer one or two remarks to your Lordships about the growing powers of this House. It did not seem suitable that I should speak on the Motion for the consideration of those Amendments, because I desired to travel a little more widely than the Transport Bill. Indeed, the Transport Bill is immaterial for my purpose, because it is to changes in constitutional structure or incipient changes in constitutional structure to which I wish to draw attention. I would add that these observations and appraisements are my own, and I am not entitled nor am I seeking to involve any of my noble friends in them. I suggest, however, that they are factual, and I offer them to your Lordships for your consideration. I trust that they will be examined by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton (who is himself a very distinguished Parliamentary statesman here and has been in both Houses) on the basis of facts and whether they are true and accurate.
As I say, the stimulus for making these remarks is that during the Transport Bill we found that a large portion of work which is normally done elsewhere was made the sole responsibility of this House. There was not sufficient manpower elsewhere to set up the system of Standing Committees and, therefore, it was necessary to leave to this House a great

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deal of work which is normally done elsewhere. That is the reason why I put on the Paper a Motion that I would call attention to the increasing powers and responsibilities of this House. I shall be brief, and some of the matter to which I shall refer is well known.
First of all, the House of Lords is constantly increasing in power. It is increasing in power because, for one thing, it is increasing in numbers. Every Party contributes to that. I myself am a happy and proud beneficiary of that system. But I daresay that your Lord ships would be surprised if you looked at the numbers. I have taken the last four quinquennia, and the number of Members of your Lordships' House has increased remarkably. In 1936 it was 749; after the next five years it was 761; it then rose to 812 and now stands at 835 fully qualified Lords of Parliament, able to come here at any time and exercise to the full their privileges as Members of this House. Now that, in itself, must be a source of strength, and must be a source of strength to that type of what we in this House should call, I suppose, the stable opinion to which these noble Lords will naturally incline. We do not look for it to be a pool of revolutionary sentiment; we know that at any time it can be called upon by leaders of conservative opinion—I mean conservative with a small "c"—as a reserve against any changes which they do not like.
It is sometimes said, "You complain of the increasing power of the House of Lords, but you have forgotten the Parliament Act." I have not forgotten the Parliament Act at all. The Parliament Act delimited the extreme boundary beyond which your Lordships were not allowed to go. In point of fact, it is interesting that the first Parliament Act (which, of course, the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, remembers so well) was used on only one occasion, and that was for the passage of a Bill already much tested, an excellent Bill—the Welsh Church Bill. Beyond that, it covered no Bill except one a few years later—the second Parliament Act, which was passed, under the first, for the purpose of getting the Steel Bill through; but in point of fact the Bill never had any shelter from the second Parliament Act. The Parlia-
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ment Acts must be regarded as a perimeter. I do not think your Lordships have shown the least sign of wishing to transgress beyond it. The third thing that makes for great strength in this House is that we, the 835 Lords of Parliament, have entire control of our own procedure. We have control of this House and therefore it is quite possible—indeed it is happening—to get far greater power for this House by methods of procedure than by any changes of law which might be forbidden by the Parliament Act.
There are four ways in which the procedure of the Chamber is governed. First, there are Statutes—there are in practice only two. The second is by rulings of the Chair. We have no Speaker here in that sense, and no recorded rulings of Order in this House, so that that cannot govern us. The third way is that of Standing Orders. Standing Orders are frequently suspended. They are very interesting Standing Orders, and some of them are effective, although, as has happened to-day, they are frequently suspended. The fourth is by practice; and if any noble Lords share my serious alarm at the growing power of the House of Lords it is because they fear that by the use and practice in relations between the two Houses the power of this House may be increased in a way that many of us would think undesirable. It must be recognised that in the relations between the two Houses of Parliament it so happens that one House makes the claim and the other does not resist: the one encroaches and the other recedes. The relative powers of the two Houses were defined in 1671.
Before I conclude, I want to draw attention to something which has nothing to do with any particular Government but which adds very considerably to the influence and power of this House, and that is delegated legislation. In the modern State it is quite impossible to pass specific Acts for every purpose, and so what is done is to delegate to the Minister power to propose to both Houses of Parliament what are in fact miniature Bills—and not, indeed, always miniature: sometimes they are quite substantial measures. That power is conceded by the mother Act and exercised by the Minister as time goes on; and when it comes to the use of those powers there is no question about inequality between the two Houses, On the contrary, there is complete parity. Recently the

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noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, made a speech about the control of exports to China. An order had been made causing ships to require a licence to carry goods to China. It was in the power of this House by one single vote to bring to an end that action of the Government.
There is a much more dangerous side from the point of view of those who do not agree with the current opinion, and that is the Affirmative Resolution. Many Acts say that the Minister can do this or that, subject to an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses. There is such a provision, although I am not sure how it will work, in the present Bill for the Federation of Central Africa. Certain things will be subject to Affirmative Resolution. So long as the political view of the other place is the same as that of this House it does not matter: we can work together in company and in harness. But supposing that the political view elsewhere differs from that here, and supposing that an Act passed by the Government demands an Affirmative Resolution of this House, then noble Lords on the Government Front Bench will see that there will have been placed on their successors the duty to secure assent to things to which the House might not normally be sympathetic. Last year there were over a thousand of these orders. Under the system of delegated legislation the powers of the House of Lords are constantly subject to increase.
Finally, I come to what happened the other day in connection with the Transport Bill. I know nothing of the technical aspects of the Bill, but I listened to the debate with great interest. I am not expressing, any view on the merits of the Bill: it is the procedure I am talking about. The Transport Bill was introduced into another place. It was a very heavy measure. A good deal had to be done. Unfortunately, as the result of the Election, there was not the manpower available to the Government to set up a Standing Committee. The Bill, therefore, had to be taken on the Floor of the House and discussion was limited, and so a great deal of work which normally would have been given to the House of Commons was transferred to this House. We had particularly interesting debates and long sittings. I enjoyed myself, for it is always a privilege to be here when this House is having a debate. We had speeches from
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the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth: speeches of very great ability, expounding one point of view; and speeches from noble Lords on the other side of the House expounding another. We sat late—until after twelve o'clock midnight on one occasion—and a great deal was done. When we came to the finish, the noble Lord, Lord Leathers, said (OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 181, col. 313):
"…the manner in which this Bill has proceeded and the improvements which have been made in it are very strong evidence that this Chamber has a most valuable part to play in framing of legislation."
He had just said (col. 312):
"…nearly a hundred Amendments out of a total of 211…will have been incorporated in the Bill in its passage through your Lord ships' House and, of these, over thirty must rank as major or important items."
Your Lordships brought experience, skill, and knowledge to the subject. But our discussions lacked one thing, and that was public authority. I am not speaking of the Minister. Noble Lords, speaking in this House, speak for themselves and not for anybody else. No one sends them here. They bring all their skill and experience, as I have said, to the public service; and they produce, as Lord Leathers said, some most useful results. All they lack is public approval. The Amendments we made were sent back to another place, and then we found that a Time Resolution had been passed. So no sooner had our Amendments gone back for public approval than they all tumbled into the pit; few were discussed, although several of them came under the Resolution of 1678, which asserted that changes in finance must originate in another place.
I am not complaining of another place, or attacking the Government. I am merely attempting to establish the constitutional fact that something has happened, which appears to have cast on this House increased powers and responsibilities, including powers and responsibilities for finance. I have not put any tail to my Resolution. If I had, I think I should have used the form of the old Resolution that was passed, I believe, in the seventeenth century, that the powers of the House of Lords have increased, are increasing and should be diminished. But I do not want to enter into any controversial matter at all. I merely want to mention the facts that I have mentioned.

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I ask the noble Viscount, from the wealth of his Parliamentary experience, to say whether he can find anything factually wrong with what I have presented to the House this afternoon. I beg to move for Papers.
3.51 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I must say that, when I saw the noble Viscount's Motion on the Order Paper, I was rather puzzled as to what it was all about and what it meant. After listening to his charming and interesting speech, I must admit that I am still completely at sea as to what he is after. He has travelled very wide and I certainly want to pay him and the House the courtesy of dealing, so far as I can at a moment's notice, because I had not the faintest idea what the noble Viscount was going to say, with the points that he has raised. In the course of his speech, he said that the powers of this House had greatly increased because a great many more Peers had come here in the last seven or eight years. Well,—they have. Nearly all of them are sitting on the Opposition Benches, and I am delighted that they have come here, because they have contributed very greatly to the value of our debates. They have certainly, if I may say so (I am not quite sure that this was not a slight condemnation on the part of the noble Viscount), acquired the conservative—or some similar adjective—spirit of this place. But, of course, if he says that there are too many noble Lords with legislative powers in this House, I must remind him—though he said, quite fairly, that he was not speaking for his Party in this matter—that we did invite the noble Viscount's Party and the Liberal Party, who were most anxious to come into consultation with us, to take part in a three-Party Conference at which the whole question of the composition and the powers of the House could be discussed. I very much regret, and I think some noble Lords opposite equally regret, that that invitation was not accepted; but certainly the opportunity was offered.
Then the noble Viscount said that our power increases because there is no one to control our procedure. That is true. There is not even anybody to control the noble Viscount, but we get on, I think, pretty well. The remarkable thing is that, although in a sense there are no Rules
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of Order, except one about reading speeches (which I wish were more observed), and another about irrelevance or impertinence, which might sometimes be brought to our attention, we get on very well, because we are an orderly, practical and common-sense Assembly.
The noble Viscount went on to say that lie found a very good example of the increase in the powers of this House in what had taken place on the Transport Bill. He said that, because of lack of manpower in another place, this Bill came to us with a good deal of it undiscussed, and that that gave to this House a new power. One of the advantages of this House, surely, is that if measures have not been fully discussed in another place, there is the opportunity to discuss them here. But both Parties, as well as the country, have found that extremely convenient. If the noble Viscount really wants me to discuss the Transport Bill, I would venture to remind him that, though it is true that a certain amount came to us here which was undiscussed, it was nothing compared to the amount of the Transport Bill of 1947 which came to us here undiscussed in another place. I am speaking from memory, but I think am right in saying that, when the Transport Bill of 1947 came to this House—one of the Ministers who was in charge will correct me if I am wrong—no fewer than thirty-five clauses of that Bill had never been discussed at all in another place. The total number of clauses in my noble friend's Bill which the House has just passed is thirty-four—so we certainly start a good deal better in that matter.
There is nothing novel in all this. The noble Viscount said that things had not been discussed. The last thing I am going to do to-day is to criticise procedure in another place; I am certainly not going to do that; but I think it is fair to say, as this question has been raised, that there certainly was nothing novel or unusual, and certainly nothing improper, in our proceedings upon the Transport Bill here, and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition will bear me out in that. As was right, we devoted a great deal of time to it, time which the Leader of the Opposition said he thought ought to be devoted to it; and day by day we agreed on how much should be taken during the day, and we did devote

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a good deal of time to it. I think it was something like thirty-eight hours altogether. We passed a certain number of Amendments, and a certain number of Amendments were rejected because the Government felt that those contravened the broad structure and purpose of the Bill. The ground of criticism from the Opposition here was not on the Amendments which we passed, because—I think I am right—every single Amendment which this House sent down to another place was passed without any Division.
The criticism of us by the Opposition—a perfectly fair criticism from their point of view—was not that we had made Amendments in the Bill, but that we either had not accepted Amendments from the Opposition or that, where we had made Amendments, we had not gone as far as the Opposition would have liked us to go. That is a perfectly fair criticism from any Opposition. That is what took place under the Bill. In passing, I may say that though another place did not discuss all our Amendments, they did devote to it there—this is purely factual—more time than we without any closure or guillotine devoted to it here, on the Committee and the Report stages. But certainly I think it was in all our minds that the Amendments which we had passed, many of which were in answer to matters raised by the Opposition, others of which were in order to give effect to, or to consider, undertakings given in another place, would be generally acceptable—indeed, as your Lordships have seen to-day, all our Amendments were accepted in another place. Only two or three small Amendments in lieu have come back, and they are really qualifying or adjusting Amendments.
Then the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, said that a new power had been exercised by this House with regard to privilege Amendments. It is important that we should be quite clear as to the position between the two Houses over privilege Amendments. Where matters of finance and charges upon the public are raised, of course the other place has a predominant position; and if an Amendment is made here which imposes upon the public a charge, a financial obligation, that is a privilege Amendment. It is for the Speaker of the House of Commons to decide whether an Amendment
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is what is technically called a privilege Amendment, and the other place can always reject an Amendment of this House on the ground of privilege. I do not remember a case where an Amendment has been objected to on the ground of privilege, where this House has insisted. But that does not mean that large numbers of privilege Amendments are not passed. They are passed because it is the common desire, both of the other place and of this House, that those Amendments should be made. I may say, in passing, that the privilege Amendments in this particular Bill were very small, in the sense that they affect only a very small amount of money—I am told that it is something like £50,000.
In the structure of the levy your Lordships amended the one-ton figure to 30 cwt. Another Amendment gave an extra £2 million to the Transport Commission, which I admit I asked the House to do at the last moment, because it had only just been discovered; but we all agreed that it was right. And we also gave an extra six months of interest to the Transport Commission. But those Amendments affected only the levy, which itself is not a charge, in the sense of privilege. It is not a charge on the public, it is a charge on the owner of the vehicles. The issue of privilege arises, as it were, only by a side wind because a small proportion of the vehicles which will be subject to the levy are owned either by Government Departments—it may be the Post Office or perhaps the War Office; I think certainly the Post Office pay the levy—or by local authorities. Therefore the Speaker ruled that, by that side wind, there was introduced into those Amendments a small element of privilege, merely by reason of the fact that a very small proportion of the vehicles concerned were Government or local authority owned.
But let the noble Viscount observe that the passing of privilege Amendments is something which the House of Commons would be most unwilling to see this House part with—for a reason which your Lordships will see is very plain. Once a Bill has come here from another place the only way in which an Amendment can be made which the other place may very much want to have made in the Bill, is by this House passing an Amendment and sending it down to the other place. The Leader of the Opposition will certainly

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remember that for decades all Parties have maintained that procedure, in which this House has passed a privilege Amendment in order to give the other place the chance of having made in the Bill an Amendment which everybody wants to have made. Therefore it is nothing novel or revolutionary; it is a procedure which has always been followed, and I think always will be followed, as long as we have a revising Chamber—and certainly a revising Chamber I am sure this country will always wish to have. That is not a matter which gives rise to any conflict between the Parties, and there has been no sort of accretion of new powers to this House in recent months or years in that respect.
The noble Viscount (I hope I managed to take the points he made) also said that this House had acquired new powers by reason of delegated legislation. My Lords, I am not fond of delegated legislation, any more than the Leader of the Opposition is—certainly not in the sense that you should delegate more than is necessary. I am equally certain that any Government that one can visualise as likely to be in power, not because of the size of its majority in one House or the other, will have, within reason, to make use of delegated legislation. I am also very sure that it is extremely desirable that in delegated legislation the delegation should be only so much as is necessary for the purpose of the Bill. What I may call the "Uncle Tom Cobley and all" clause—I mean the clause which gives the Minister power to make an order for anything hereafter his public servants may think is useful—is anathema. I am not claiming this as a Party point, but I would say that, on the whole, the trend is not to increase the amount of delegated legislation but, I should rather hope, to reduce it, because as we get into more normal times none of us wants unnecessarily to preserve controls.
We may differ on whether this or that control ought to go, but broad and large I think we may be able to get further away from the vast number of Orders in Council and, therefore, reduce the amount of delegated legislation. If we have to have delegated legislation, then, of course, we have to try to keep some control by Parliament over the Execu-
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tive. This is done, and always has been done, by the practice of being able to pray against an Order in Council. That has always been the power of either House. And where you get a very special case, something of particular importance that has to be done by Order in Council, there is the alternative of an Affirmative Resolution. I think that is a good plan. I am not going into it to-day, but we had an interesting debate, in which the Leader of the Opposition and I were the protagonists, as to how we should deal with the decentralisation scheme of my noble friend Lord Leathers when it comes forward. I think the Affirmative Resolution, in special cases, is a good thing; but there is nothing odd, certainly nothing new, in having that dealt with by both Houses of Parliament. After all, this is only the procedure which takes place on a Bill. The noble Viscount said it would cause great difficulty if the House of Commons passed an Affirmative Resolution and the House of Lords did not pass an Affirmative Resolution; or, conversely, if this House passed an Affirmative Resolution and the House of Commons did not. Clearly, if this House passed an Affirmative Resolution and the House of Commons did not, the Order could not be made, because there would not be an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament.
I would remind the noble Viscount that he was dealing with hypothesis and not with any matter of fact. I do not recall—the noble Viscount will remind me if I am wrong—a case of an Affirmative Resolution being passed in the other place where this House has refused to pass a similar Affirmative Resolution. I think I am right in saying that. I agree you can put a hypothetical case; but the noble Viscount will forgive me if I say that he is not going to make our flesh creep by suggesting all sorts of things that might happen, when they do not happen in practice. You can say all sorts of things. You can say that every "backwoodsman" will come here and vote against every Bill that is introduced. I know that that is a possibility; but one knows that it does not happen. The sound thing about the English Constitution is the successful, though illogical, way it works. Things of this sort which you can conjure up do not, in fact, happen. I agree that in theory it would he possible for the House of Com-

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mons to pass an Affirmative Resolution and for this House to reject a similar Resolution. But it would be something very unusual, and a pretty strong case would have to be made out to bring that about. But supposing that it did so happen, it is not very different from the process that has always taken place with regard to a Bill. It is competent for this House to reject a Bill which the House of Commons has passed, subject, of course, to the process of the Parliament Act, though that is quite another matter.
EARL JOWITT: I think the noble Viscount is quite right. I do not think this House has ever refused to pass an Affirmative Resolution where one has been passed by the other place. But, theoretically, whereas in the case of a Bill you have got all the machinery of the Parliament Act behind you, in the other case, that of refusing to pass an Affirmative Resolution or differing from the other House in a Prayer, theoretically you have not the machinery of the Parliament Act. I think that is what my noble friend Lord Stan gate has in mind.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I agree with that. The noble and learned Earl put it very fairly, but we are discussing what I believe is a purely theoretical thing. Of course, if a Government wished to insist on the provisions of an Order being made effective, when this House had rejected it, the Government could use the machinery of the Parliament Act. It would be easy to put a clause into a Bill, instead of having it made subject to a Resolution. Treating it as an academic point, I agree with the noble and learned Leader of the Opposition.
On the whole merits of the case, on the reality of the points which the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, has raised, I think the noble and learned Earl who leads the Opposition will probably find himself in agreement with me, rather than with the noble Viscount. I apologise if I have spoken at some length, but as the noble Viscount was raising matters which did go rather deep into our Constitutional practice and the relations between the Houses, I thought that I ought to be clear as to what the actual position was, and clear on the bearing of recent events upon the position. I would sum up by saying that in fact no new powers have been conferred upon us; we have not
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sought to arrogate to ourselves any new powers. With the normal way in which the two Houses have worked together, and owing to the good sense in all parts of this House, it all seems to me to be working very well at the present time, and we need not be anxious about the way we are discharging existing responsibilities. I think we do it pretty well. Certainly no new powers and responsibilities have accrued to this House in consequence of "recent changes in legislative procedure." In fact, so far as I am aware, there have not been any changes in our legislative procedure. Therefore, I do not think we are on the verge of a Parliamentary or even a procedural revolution, and we can all sleep quiet in our beds.
4.16 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, we all regard the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, as the watchdog of democracy. Whenever he barks, I expect to find myself barking by his side. But on this occasion I cannot see that he has made out a case. He referred to a Resolution to the effect that:
"the powers have increased, are increasing, and ought to be diminished."
That Resolution, by the way, was not, so far as I remember, a Resolution relating to the House of Lords. In the seventeenth century there may have been a Resolution—I do not recall it—but there was the famous Dunning Resolution in the House of Commons, in the time of George III. That was to the effect that
"The powers of the Crown have increased, are increasing and ought to be diminished"
That is only a small point, and I bring it up only for the sake of historical record.
There is, however, another Parliamentary point which I should like to mention, because it is of special interest to me. The noble Viscount observed that when the Labour Government introduced the Parliament Bill they did so in order to get the Iron and Steel Bill through. I ventured to suggest here, in this House, that that was so. But I was immediately replied to by Mr. Morrison, who said, in effect, that it was nothing of the sort; that the Bill was introduced on its own merits, and on grounds of constitutional principle. To that I well remember replying here by saying that I was not accustomed to using strong language but

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that, in the circumstances, I could not refrain from saying: "tut tut." Now the noble Viscount says quite frankly that they introduced it for the sake of getting the Iron and Steel Bill through.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I was just making an observation. I said that that was frequently said. But I was not a member of the Government to which the noble Viscount refers, and I could not possibly commit my noble and learned Leader, or any of his distinguished colleagues on this Bench, as to the real purpose of the myself thought it might be for the purpose which I mentioned.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: The noble Viscount only made an observation, and I only made an observation—the House will take note of both of them. As to the reasons why, according to the noble Viscount, the powers of this House have increased, one of those reasons is that the numbers of the House have increased, and increased with great rapidity. As he said, they now total well over 800. Indeed, I have mentioned in this House that the number of new Peerages in the present century has been 500. But can it be said that the powers of the House of Lords have thereby been increased? You may say that it increases the authority of the House because there are introduced Members of the first creation, like the noble Viscount himself, or myself, or other admirable people who lend fresh strength to the orations of your Lordships' House. But that is not an increase of power. It is the old Constitution, working, perhaps, with greater speed and rapidity.
The noble Viscount's second point was with regard to the guillotine in another place. He said that that resulted in a good deal of undigested legislation coming here to go through enpeptic processes in your Lordships' House. But the guillotine procedure is not a new thing; it has been going on during the greater part of the present century. Whenever that happens, there comes a great deal of legislative material that has not been considered in another place and this House is required to consider it for the first time and make Amendments. Included in those Amendments, of course, as is usually the case, are a great number
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of Amendments which are acceptable to the Government, because every Government try to improve a Bill as it goes through; and if they cannot get their own Amendments accepted in another place, because they are there guillotined, representatives of the Government move them in this House. But that is not trying to control the other place or to enlarge the powers of your Lordships' House as against the other place. As the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has just said, with respect to all the Amendments on the Transport Bill, they have been accepted by the other House and they were carried here mainly, or at least in great part, at the desire of the other House. Therefore, it would be entirely a false impression, if that Bill were cited as an example of tee encroachment of this House upon the powers of the other.
The third point raised was that there is so much more delegated legislation now than there used to be. Well, that is so. But the procedure is the same as it always has been. There always have been the Affirmative Resolution and the Negative Resolution, and this House has always had the powers of which the noble Viscount is now complaining. There is nothing new in that. It has gone on for as long as delegated legislation itself has existed; and if there is more of that kind of legislation, all that can be said is that this House has more numerical opportunities of using its powers. We cannot say that the powers themselves have been in any degree increased.
4.23 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, and my old friend Lord Samuel for the flattery of the kind and thoughtful attention which they have given the few remarks I addressed to your Lordships. I am sorry about my mistake in the quotation. That is a dreadful thing. I can only give Dr. Johnson's excuse—sheer ignorance. But it does not matter much about the power of the Crown. What matters here is the power of the Executive; and that power "is increasing and ought to be diminished." That is exactly our objection. It is exercised through a docile Upper Chamber. The wording of the correct version of the quotation which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, gave me, is equally applicable.

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With what the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, said about the way in which the Conservative Party use the powers of this House, I entirely agree. There are here a large number of old Parliamentary hands. Because there are 835 Peers, that does not mean that this House is stronger than when there were 721 Peers, but it means what in employing circles is called a large reserve of labour. Therefore, these noble Lords are always available for the Conservative Party when required. It may be that something happens in the minds of the electors and they may be called upon. But, of course, these powers have been exercised with a sense of fairness and a sense of consideration for all of us, which makes them all the more dangerous. The reasonable autocrat is a much more dangerous man than the unreasonable autocrat, and the Bench Opposite is an autocracy so far as all that matters is concerned. I think that fact, whether the Front Bench sits there or here, is not open to challenge.
Finally, a word about the guillotine Resolution. There is a great change here which has resulted in there being thrown on this House responsibilities which we did not have before. I would draw the attention of my noble friend Lord Samuel to this fact. Previously, in another place they frequently said, "We do not want these Amendments; reject them globally"—that was the word used by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman about the Amendments to the Education Act: I remember cheering it violently on the Back Bench. To say, "Reject the Amendments globally" is one thing, but to say, "Accept them without debate" is a totally different thing. I must say that I smiled at the astuteness of the Conservative Party in persuading this House to sit three nights until twelve o'clock while the Conservative Party composed their differences on the Transport Bill and transformed their position, and filled their unmanned Committees in another place. It was the finest example of a successful political manœuvre that I have ever known. As Mr. Speaker said in another place, the House has never been stopped from considering any legislation which originated here, including some dealing with finance, and compelled to take it at one gulp. They did not complain. That is their affair. We
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should not venture to criticise them. But they are the Government. Do you control the House of Commons?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: No, I do not control the House of Commons. I do not even control this House.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: The noble Viscount is too modest. The Government control the House of Commons, and my complaint is that the Government have found a new way by which the labours of this House, and the talent, ability and sense of public spirit of this House, are being turned to such good purpose that, where the electors will not allow them to have enough men to man their Committees in another place, the work is to be done by this House. I am grateful for the kindness, the consideration, the courtesy and the vast know ledge I have evoked in this debate, and with your Lordships' permission, I now beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, with drawn.

LEASEHOLD PROPERTY ACT AND LONG LEASES (SCOTLAND) ACT EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
HERTS AND ESSEX WATER BILL MILFORD DOCKS BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
GREAT NORTHERN LONDON CEMETERY (CREMATORIUM) BILL [H.L.] NEWBURY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.] BELPER URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL TEES CONSERVANCY SUPERAN NUATION SCHEME BILL
Reported, with Amendments.
DOVER HARBOUR BILL
Committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

BERKSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTES The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTES informed the House that the opposition to
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the Bill was withdrawn: the orders made on February 10 and March 3 discharged, and Bill committed.

CHESHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
The Queen's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes past four o'clock.