Sitting of 24 June 1953

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  EUROPEAN COAL AND STEEL COMMUNITY
  Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present position regarding British association with the High Authority of the European Coal and Steel Pool; and what progress has been made towards full British participation in this organisation.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): The position remains as stated in my hon. Friend's reply to the hon. Member on 23rd February.
  Mr. Hynd: Are the Government giving really serious consideration to this important organisation and to the possibility that, if we do not take a full part in it, there may be unfortunate economic repercussions on this country?
  Mr. Lloyd: Her Majesty's Government are certainly paying great attention to this important organisation. The present position is that the President of the High Authority has said that the time has come for them to make concrete proposals to Her Majesty's Government. We are waiting to learn what the proposals are.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that other views are held in this country about the matter, particularly in the trade union movement and among those engaged in industry?
  Mr. Lloyd: We have taken care to include representatives of the trade unions in our delegation.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Are the Government ready to consider the best way of protecting our trade union and other
  1874
  interests, perhaps by means of a contractual agreement with the High Authority on certain matters?
  Mr. Lloyd: We ought to wait and see what the concrete proposals are before we pass judgment.

  EUROPEAN AGRICULTURAL MARKETS (CONFERENCE)
  Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the extent of British participation in the Green Pool which was discussed at a meeting of European Ministers of Agriculture in March last; and what progress has been made in setting up this organisation.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The Ministerial Conference held last March set up an Interim Committee, composed of representatives of European Governments, including Her Majesty's Government, which is to put forward proposals, by 31st October, for the organisation and unification of agricultural markets. A further Ministerial Conference will then be held to discuss these proposals.
  Mr. Hynd: May we take it that the Government are watching this sympathetically?
  Mr. Lloyd: We are watching it carefully. We must wait and see what the proposals are.

  MR. CEDRIC BELFRAGE (U.S. DEPORTATION PROCEEDINGS)
  Mr. Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action he has taken or proposes to take concerning the treatment of Mr. Cedric Belfrage, a British subject, by various United States Congressional committees and by the United States immigration authorities.
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations he has made to the United States State Department on behalf of Mr. Cedric Belfrage, a British subject resident in the United States of America for many years, now detained on Ellis Island.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Normal deportation proceedings have been instituted by the United States immigration authorities

  1875
  against Mr. Belfrage. A report on the case has been obtained from Her Majesty's Embassy at Washington, but no other action is at present contemplated. Mr. Belfrage is represented by an American lawyer. He has now been released on bail pending deportation hearing.
  Mr. Driberg: Although Mr. Belfrage has been released—since these Questions were put down—is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that he is still subject to certain disabilities, such as having to report twice a week at Ellis Island? Is there any reason why a British subject should be treated like this when he has broken no law of the United States? Is not this merely part of Senator McCarthy's campaign of persecution against all liberal opinion? Cannot the right hon. and learned Gentleman protest more vigorously?
  Mr. Lloyd: At the moment deportation proceedings are taking place, and they are based upon certain Acts of the United States Government, passed by their appropriate machinery. Mr. Belfrage is to be represented at these proceedings. We must wait for the result of the proceedings before making comment.

  GERMANY (EASTERN ZONE REFUGEES)
  Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will again approach the German authorities through the appropriate channels on the subject of refugees from Eastern Germany.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I presume that the hon. Member is referring to the subject of relief for the refugees. I would refer to the answer given to the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) on 20th April. Her Majesty's Government are not contemplating making any further approaches to the German Federal Government. Should the German Federal Government subsequently make any specific suggestions for assistance, Her Majesty's Government would, of course, consider them sympathetically.
  Mr. Grimond: If the Russian and Eastern European Governments are now taking up a more reasonable attitude, might there not be an opportunity of reopening the whole matter and trying to settle it, thereby taking one step forward towards a general settlement in Europe?
  Mr. Lloyd: The first step is to make certain about the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: As there are many refugees who will certainly not be able to go back to their homes, and as their presence vitally affects the peace of Western Europe, will the Government consider joining the new international refugee organisation at Geneva?
  Mr. Lloyd: That is a question of which I require notice.

  MONTREUX CONVENTION
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what official representations have been made to Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom by the Government of Turkey with regard to the Montreux Convention of 1936.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: None, Sir.
  Mr. Henderson: Does that mean that no communication has been received from the Government of Turkey following its receipt of a Note from the Government of Russia suggesting, among other things, a discussion on the future of the Montreux Convention? Would it be the view of Her Majesty's Government that there should be no amendment of the Convention without the agreement of all the signatories to it?
  Mr. Lloyd: I absolutely agree with what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said. There can be no question of a revision of this instrument without the approval of the other signatories.

  BRITISH SUBJECTS (RUSSIAN WIVES)
  Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any reply has yet been received from the Soviet Government to the two approaches that have recently been made by Her Majesty's Government for exit visas for Russian wives of British subjects to enable them to join their husbands in this country.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The Soviet Government have returned an unfavourable reply to the representations made in

  1877
  April by Her Majesty's Ambassador. Her Majesty's Government do not regard that reply as final.
  Mr. Dodds: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman convey to the right quarter that many of us take a very dim view of the fact that in recent weeks two lots of women married to Americans have been allowed to leave the country? Particularly in the case of Mrs. Hall, who has been confined to the Embassy for over six years, the situation seems to be disgraceful in view of all the facts. If the Russians want a better understanding with the ordinary people of this country, should they not allow these women to rejoin their husbands?
  Mr. Lloyd: I entirely agree with what the hon. Gentleman has said.

  NEPAL (EVEREST ASCENT ANNOUNCEMENT)
  Mr. F. Macleanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why Her Majesty's Ambassador at Katmandu had no opportunity of informing the King of Nepal of the successful ascent of Mount Everest until 2nd June, in view of the fact that he had already passed the news to "The Times" newspaper on 1st June.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: As my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary said in the House on 17th June, the first news received at Her Majesty's Embassy was contained in a message which Her Majesty's Ambassador was requested to pass to "The Times" and to the Himalayan Committee. The Ambassador considered it right to give time for the contents of this message from the leader of the expedition to be passed to London before communicating it to anyone else. Owing to the difference in time, the morning of 2nd June was, in the circumstances, the first suitable time for conveying the news to the King of Nepal.
  Mr. Maclean: Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, in failing to inform the King of the country in which Mount Everest is situated of the successful ascent of the mountain, Her Majesty's Ambassador committed a grave discourtesy?
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I have already explained that Her Majesty's Ambassador
  1878
  informed the King of Nepal as soon as he considered it appropriate, and in fact the King of Nepal heard from Her Majesty's Ambassador the first news of the successful ascent of the mountain.
  Mr. Nicholson: Is it not a pity that the lustre of this magnificent feat should be clouded and obscured by petty bickerings?

  MINISTRY OF FOOD

    Tinned Salmon
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Food if he is aware of the difficulty of obtaining tinned salmon; if he will account for the shortage; and what prospect there is of better supplies in the next few months.
    The Minister of Food (Major Lloyd George): The quantities which we can import are determined entirely by balance of payments considerations and I am unable to hold out hope of an early improvement.
    Mr. Dodds: Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciate the disappointment that his statement will give? If a greater variety of food is to be available, salmon is a most important factor. Does he not realise that he would be blessed by the housewives if he could pull a little more out of the bag?
    Major Lloyd George: We have been pulling things out of the bag for a long time. One of the difficulties is that the only sources of salmon supplies are in difficult currency areas. As soon as the currency position improves we shall be able to improve the supplies.
    Dr. Stross: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say how much tinned salmon comes from the Soviet Union, and whether the amount from that source can be increased?
    Major Lloyd George: Before the war about 15,000 tons came from the Soviet Union. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we now have an agreement with the Soviet Union by which we send them herring in return for canned salmon.

    Milk Supplies, South Wales
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware of the disabilities of milk retailers in Newport

    1879
    and Monmouthshire and other parts of the country by the decision of wholesale milk purveyors to limit their supply of milk to one specified firm; that little or no notice was given of this change of policy to the retailers concerned; what consultations there have been with the regional milk supply officer; and whether he will order a full inquiry as to the desirability of this policy which, in effect, creates a monopoly.
    Major Lloyd George: The answer to the first and last parts of the Question is, No, Sir. Wholesalers in South Wales have recently rationalised their deliveries to reduce transport costs. This does not affect the quality, price or availability of milk, but it safeguards supplies to remote areas where they seemed likely to break down. Such arrangements do not require my consent, and there was, therefore, no need for formal consultation with my officers, although they were aware of the proposals.
    Mr. Freeman: Is it not a fact that the wholesalers themselves are becoming retailers and as a result there is practically a monopoly of milk supply in South Wales, or will be before long? Is it not likely to be a serious menace if it happens in other parts of the country?
    Major Lloyd George: Already some retailers have done the same thing, purely to rationalise distribution. As the hon. Gentleman knows, some parts of South Wales are, because of their situation, not easy places to which to get supplies, and there was a danger that some people in remote places would not get any supplies at all. This will definitely improve their position.
    Mr. Freeman: Could not the retailers have been provided with the opportunity of supplying those people? There has been no complaint or difficulty about supplying them.
    Major Lloyd George: It is the supply by the wholesaler to the retailer to which I referred in my answer.

    Coronation (Ox Roasting)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Food how many applications were received for roasting an ox whole, in celebration of the Coronation; how many were withdrawn, how many refused, how many granted, and how many were actually carried out.
    Major Lloyd George: One hundred and fifty-four applications were received; of these 40 were withdrawn, 33 refused and 81 approved. I do not know how many oxen were roasted.
    Mr. Freeman: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether in this connection any of the residue or refuse or offal from the corpses of these oxen were ultimately made into meat pies to become the cause of the thousands of cases of food poisoning recorded since the Coronation?
    Major Lloyd George: I do not think I could follow the hon. Gentleman in that question. I have no idea what happened to the residue, but I am perfectly certain that it did not go into any meat pies.

    Meat Supplies
    Colonel J. H. Harrisonasked the Minister of Food why no beef was available in the meat ration in East Suffolk in recent weeks, although many bullocks are fattened in the county.
    Major Lloyd George: During the five weeks ended 12th June beef formed approximately 35 per cent. on average of issues of meat from depots in East Suffolk, and the bulk of this was locally produced. This corresponds with the average for the rest of the country over the same period.
    Colonel Harrison: While thanking my right hon. and gallant Friend for his reply may I ask him if he is aware that this did not appear so obvious to the housewife drawing her rations? After all, do we not have a Biblical precedent for those who fatten their bullocks having some share in them?
    Major Lloyd George: As a matter of fact, in my hon. and gallant Friend's constituency they had a slightly bigger share than the rest of the country.
    Mr. Willey: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that we have received this year less beef from the Argentine than we had last year, and that this is very disappointing? Is he making representations to the Argentine about it?
    Major Lloyd George: I do not know what this has got to do with East Suffolk, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that overall we are receiving much more.
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Food the total tonnage of meat he anticipates having available in 1953 to meet ration demands; how much of this, in tons, will be home produced and how much imported; what estimate he has formed of total meat requirements for 1954 to secure derationing; and what obstacles now remain to derationing meat in the early part of 1954.
    Major Lloyd George: Supplies of ration meat in 1953 are expected to be about 1,500,000 tons, of which about 900,000 tons will be home produced and 600,000 tons imported. Manufacturing meat and offals will bring the total to nearly 1,900,000 tons. Pre-war consumption levels would indicate a need of about 2,300,000 tons in 1954 but this may not be a conclusive guide.
    The pre-requisites of derationing are adequate supplies spread reasonably over the year; freedom from undue currency restrictions; and satisfactory arrangements for giving effect to the price and market guarantees for home production under the Agriculture Act, 1947. I earnestly hope these pre-requisites will be satisfied during 1954, but I will not venture to make any firm forecast at this moment.
    Mr. Nabarro: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind that the reward of boldness is great success as in the case of his scheme for the derationing of eggs, and in view of the overwhelming desire of all people in this country to see the back of meat rationing after 14 years of it, will he take the most energetic steps to bridge this marginal shortage which still remains?
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: In view of the figures for 1953 which the Minister has just given, will he say why he is trying to force people all over the country to take fat pork and imported mutton which butchers and consumers will not touch with a pitchfork, and is he not aware that as a result the meat ration system is on the verge of complete collapse in more places than one?
    Major Lloyd George: I cannot possibly accept the hon. and gallant Gentleman's last observation. With regard to the figures of the meat ration, pork and mutton have to play their part. As I pointed out to an hon. Friend of mine in an earlier answer, at least 35 per cent. of the meat ration was in beef.
    Sir W. Smithers: When will my right hon. and gallant Friend realise that if he continues to break the law of supply and demand, as, for instance, by continuing bulk purchase, he will land the country in bankruptcy, and has he not seen the result of State controls in the £22 million loss on the Raw Cotton Commission? Will he close down the Ministry as soon as possible?
    Mr. Speaker: There is nothing in the Question about cotton.
    Mr. Royle: Is it not a fact that the 2s. 4d. meat ration is only possible because of the distribution of excessively fat and very poor quality meat, and is it fair to place the onus on the retail traders, particularly when the Ministry might easily use that addition for the provision of better meat?
    Major Lloyd George: I cannot answer the rest of the Question because I do not agree with the first part of it.
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Food if he is aware of the small amount of beef being supplied at the Brandon and Byshottles, County Durham, distribution centre, and of the poor quality of the mutton now being offered; and what he is prepared to do to bring about some improvement in this matter.
    Major Lloyd George: During the five weeks ended 12th June this district received about 37 per cent. of beef, which is slightly above the average for the rest of the country. Its share of imported mutton was in the same proportion as elsewhere. Future issues must depend on home marketings and the types of meat arriving from abroad.
    Mr. Murray: Is the Minister aware that variety is the spice of life, and does he not realise that it is a bit monotonous for the women of this country to be told week after week that it is mutton, mutton, mutton? Is he aware that I am informed that the quality of the old ewes which have been received in this country is not worth the carriage of bringing them here, and will he not do something at least to give the women of this country a bit of real English beef?
    Major Lloyd George: As I told the hon. Gentleman, the average received in this district is slightly above the average for the rest of the country. I am interested

    1883
    to hear him say that variety is the spice of life, as I am doing my best to give some of that variety. The proportion of imported mutton, to which the hon. Gentleman referred contemptuously, was only 10 per cent. in that particular period.

    Orange Juice (Purchase)
    Mr. F. Macleanasked the Minister of Food what offers he has so far received for the 500,000 tons of adulterated orange juice concentrate purchased in error by his Department and now offered for sale.
    Major Lloyd George: Of the 500,000 gallons—not tons—of juice which did not accord with the purchase specification, as yet only part has been reconditioned and prepared for sale. No more than a few trial barrels have been sold.
    Mr. Maclean: In view of the heavy financial loss involved, and in view of the very long time which it took to discover what was happening, will my right hon. and gallant Friend institute an early inquiry into this whole business?
    Major Lloyd George: That would not be necessary, I can assure my hon. Friend, because I have personally gone into this matter very carefully, and I can assure him that we are doing everything we can to avoid any repetition.
    Sir D. Robertson: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend recollect the written answers he gave to Questions of mine this week which indicated that a fraud had occurred there, and that 18 shipments at least have been rejected and of 54 which have been accepted two were found to be defective and thoroughly unwholesome?
    Major Lloyd George: My hon. Friend has a Question later on that, and I shall deal with it.
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the preservative used in defective shipments of orange juice purchased by his Department from Sicily is so virulent that the lacquer on the cans is destroyed; and, in view of the possible danger to consumers, if he will stop all sales, pending further inquiry and examination.
    Major Lloyd George: The use of this preservative is a common and harmless practice. The effect of the reaction on the containers is being removed by
    1884
    appropriate treatment, and searching tests of the reconditioned juice by the Government Chemist, the British Food Manufacturing Industries Research Association and chemists drawn from the trade have disclosed no harmful substances.
    Sir D. Robertson: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend really think that it is right for a Government Department to traffic in orange juice of this kind, and in view of the strange circumstances surrounding the whole of this contract would it not be good policy to destroy the lot and stop the expense of £1,000 a week for storage?
    Major Lloyd George: No, I do not think so. The question is whether this juice is harmful, and there is no question at all about that, it is not harmful. There is also the other point that if the manufacturers do not want it they do not have to buy it.
    Mr. Marlowe: If these particular deliveries were not up to the standard in accordance with the specifications why were they accepted by the Ministry of Food? Why were they not rejected, as they could be under the contract?
    Major Lloyd George: Because in all contracts this particular type of juice does not have anything added to it. On this particular occasion, quite contrary to the specification, it was added to, and this was not discovered until it was made into welfare juice. As far as the vendors are concerned, action has been taken, but I would remind my hon. and learned Friend that this consignment was ordered long before we came into power.

    Sugar Derationing
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Food whether he has yet decided upon the date for derationing sugar.
    Major Lloyd George: The final date must depend upon our having enough refined sugar. Our refiners are doing their utmost to expand output, and I have taken special steps to supplement supplies from overseas. If all goes well I hope to end rationing in September.
    Mr. Nabarro: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend have special regard to assuring that no part of the luscious soft

    1885
    fruit crop is wasted, and that all available plums, damsons, cherries, loganberries and raspberries are this year usefully employed? Will he give special attention to that?
    Major Lloyd George: I shall certainly do all I can, but I would remind my hon. Friend that with the present ration and bonus the housewife is receiving roughly what she had before the war.

    Bacon
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Food whether he will make a statement upon prospects for derationing bacon.
    Major Lloyd George: Bacon must be considered together with pork, and I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave about the latter to my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) on 17th June.
    Mr. Nabarro: Is it not a fact that month by month the pig population is steadily increasing, and that while there appears to be abundant pork we still have this static bacon ration? Can my right hon. and gallant Friend hold out any hope of disposing of bacon rationing at a fairly early date?
    Major Lloyd George: As I said in my reply to my hon. Friend on 17th June, I am satisfied that a piecemeal approach to the derationing of meat would not be satisfactory, and that, therefore, I should deal with the whole of the meat question as one.
    Mr. Shurmer: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman see to it when the time does come for the derationing of these commodities that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is asking about, that the prices will not increase, as has happened in the case of those foods already derationed?

    Cheese (Goats' Milk)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Food what proportion of cheese made in England and Wales is made from goats' milk.
    Major Lloyd George: Cheese made from goats' milk is not subject to rationing or other forms of control. I have no information on the quantity produced.
    Mr. Gower: As very much excellent Continental cheese is made from goats' milk, will the Minister do all he possibly can to encourage the production of such cheese in this country?
    Major Lloyd George

    Food Poisoning
    Dr. Broughtonasked the Minister of Food (1) whether, in view of the need to lessen the incidence of food poisoning, he will introduce to Parliament at an early date the legislation for the purpose of amending the Food and Drugs Acts;
    (2) what action he proposes to take to combat the possibility of further mass outbreaks of food poisoning.
    Major Lloyd George: Outbreaks of food poisoning can only be combated by the vigilance of all concerned with the handling of food. I am anxious to support these efforts by the introduction of legislation to amend the Food and Drugs Act, which I hope will not be long delayed.
    Dr. Broughton: While this long-promised legislation is not the complete solution to the problem of food poisoning, does the Minister agree that in view of the recent outbreak in Lancashire, with more than 1,100 cases, the Government should make every effort to raise the standard of food hygiene? Can we have an assurance from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Government will introduce this Bill at the beginning of the next Session?
    Major Lloyd George: I obviously cannot answer that question. I can give the hon. Gentleman this assurance, however, that I am most anxious to bring this Bill on as soon as possible, and will do everything I can to achieve that purpose.

    Manufacturing Meat Licences, Wembley
    Mr. Russellasked the Minister of Food why Messrs. Walbrooks, Butchers, Ltd., of 592, High Road, Wembley, have been refused an application for a Group I manufacturing licence.
    Major Lloyd George: It is undesirable to supply substantial quantities of manufacturing quality meat to premises used

    1887
    for selling ration meat, and the rule is that there must be separate premises. This firm's application does not at present comply with the rule.
    Mr. Russell: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that this factory has been described by the Wembley Borough Council sanitary inspector as virtually separated from the retail premises, that it is a member of the Wembley Clean Food Association, which aims at a very high standard of cleanliness, and will he look into this matter again?
    Major Lloyd George: It is not a question of cleanliness in this instance; it is a question of whether the manufacturers' premises are separated from the retail butchers and that is the difficulty. If we did not insist upon that it would not be possible to maintain the rationing system.

    Australian and Canadian Wheat
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Food what discussions he has had with representatives of the Australian and Canadian Governments regarding wheat supplies.
    Major Lloyd George: None, Sir.
    Mr. Willey: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman think it will be a good thing if he began these discussions, because, rightly or wrongly, there has been a good deal of public criticism in both of these Dominions because of the action we took in connection with the International Wheat Agreement?
    Mr. Nabarro: Nothing of the sort.
    Mr. Willey: I can assure the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that in the Dominions there has been a good deal of criticism. If the initiative does not come from them, would it not be a good thing that it should come from us?
    Major Lloyd George: I do not think so. People are perfectly free to criticise if they so wish. I do not think our action is open to criticism, and, whilst they are perfectly entitled to express their own opinion, the answer given by Her Majesty's Government was that we did not propose to accede to the price demanded under the Agreement.
    Mr. Willey: Have any offers been made of wheat from these Dominions below the ceiling price?
    Major Lloyd George: The position remains exactly as it was. We refused to accede to this price, and, therefore, when this Agreement comes to an end there will be a free market.
    Mr. Osborne: Is the Minister aware that most people in this country congratulate him on the steps he has taken to keep down the price of wheat and so reduce the cost of living?

    Imported Eggs
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Food what profit he expects to make during 1953–54 on the purchase and sale of imported eggs.
    Major Lloyd George: Imported eggs are sold at free market prices and it is not possible to give a reliable forecast of profits, if any, which may arise.
    Mr. Willey: Can the Minister say what profit he has made to date?
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir; even if I could I would not do so. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that this is a practice which was employed by his Government as well. The fact of the matter is that it is not possible to say what the profit will be.
    Mr. Willey: Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman agree that it is nonsense to talk about a free market if, by making a profit on the sale of imported eggs, he is supporting an uncommercial price for the retailer?
    Major Lloyd George: It is not altogether that. The hon. Gentleman knows that at certain times of the year there are more eggs available than at others, and it is to the advantage of the consumer that we should retain some for the short period.

    Indian Tea Production
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the effect and operation of the decision to reduce the production of tea in India by one-eighth, he will reconsider the reimposition of price controls for tea.
    Major Lloyd George: I think that the hon. Member has in mind a scheme of voluntary limitation of production which was abandoned. Export quotas remain unchanged at levels which do not, in practice, restrict supplies.
    Mr. Willey: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that I have had this confirmed from India House, and that the import of tea this year is substantially less—16 per cent. less—than it was in the corresponding period last year, which is a disturbing thing, and that, therefore, it is not surprising that the price of tea is again going up on Monday by a further 4d.
    Major Lloyd George: There is no inconsistency between what the hon. Gentleman says and what I have said. Earlier this year a scheme was proposed by the India Tea Association to restrict imports which has since been dropped.

    Liquid Milk Consumption
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Food whether he has noted that the volume of milk sold in the liquid market has fallen in the year 1952–53 by 33 million gallons, while the total production has increased by 30 million gallons; why this fall in consumption has occurred; and what he proposes to do to offset this.
    Major Lloyd George: The true decline is about 20 million gallons in England and Wales and represents a fall of less than 1½ per cent. This is too small to assign to any single reason but the improvement in the supplies of other foods is undoubtedly a contributory factor.
    Dr. Stross: Has the Minister not noted the observations made last week, as reported in "The Times," by the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board, in which he described the fall as 2 per cent. and gave the figure that I have suggested; and that he went on to say that it is due to the sharp rise in retail prices? Will not the Minister consider what he is doing and see to it that people can afford to drink all the milk available for them in liquid form?
    Major Lloyd George: We are doing so. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the consumption of liquid milk is 60 per cent. above what it was before the war. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I do not know why hon. Gentlemen opposite should cheer that so much, it is not particularly due to them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The scheme started before the war and was developed during the war.
    1890
    The figure of the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board is 33 million, the same as that of the hon. Gentleman. I was giving the net figure, which, by omitting certain things, brings it down to 20 million. As far as the price of milk is concerned, I would remind the hon. Gentleman of what the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board also said, that it is obviously desirable that the price payable by the public for milk should, as soon as practicable, cover the real cost involved.
    Dr. Stross: Surely the Minister does not accept the last part of those observations and will not take that type of advice? If he does, it means that we shall return to what we had under Tory Governments in the past, milk will be fed to pigs and poured down the drains and used for the manufacture of plastic umbrellas.
    Major Lloyd George: I was not taking the advice of the chairman of the Milk Marketing Board. The hon. Gentleman quoted him and so I thought I had better quote him further.

  SUEZ CANAL ZONE (PILFERING)
  Dr. Strossasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence whether he will make a statement on the extent of the thieving by natives in the Suez Canal Zone, and the methods used to protect the military installations.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence (Mr. Nigel Birch): Security measures have led to a reduction in pilferage. Installations are protected by guards and patrols and by wire.
  Dr. Stross: Would it be reasonable to say that the installations are fairly well protected but that there is constant need to be aware of depredations by stealing, and that quite a large number of thieves are apprehended?
  Mr. Birch: Pilfering from the Canal Zone base is a well-established local industry, but the situation has improved recently. We have had stronger guards and better co-operation from the Egyptian police.
  Mr. Shinwell: Can the hon. Gentleman inform the House what is the actual value of the goods pilfered? This has been going on for a long time and I know that efforts have been made to stop it.
  Mr. Birch: I could not give that figure without notice, and I rather doubt if it could be given at all The number of losses is very small.
  Mr. Shinwell: Surely the hon. Gentleman is not telling the House that the number of losses is small since he has just said that this is a local industry? Surely he is well aware of the fact that many hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of goods have been lost in this way? Why is he not frank with the House?
  Mr. Birch: I have not got the figures but, if the right hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, I will do my best to answer it although I doubt if it would be possible to give any definite figures.

  SIERRA LEONE (CHIEF COMMISSIONER)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the present functions of the Chief Commissioner of the Protectorate of Sierra Leone in regard to local government; and what is the relation of the Chief Commissioner to the Minister of Local Government.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Oliver Lyttelton): The Chief Commissioner is the executive Head of the Provincial Administration in the Protectorate and is responsible to the Governor for those aspects of provincial administration which are not dealt with by the local government authorities. He works in close liaison, in an advisory capacity, with the Minister for Education, Local Government and Welfare on those subjects which fall within the latter's portfolio, including local government policy and the services provided by local authorities in the Protectorate.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the functions of these three gentlemen are properly co-ordinated, and are they now considering any further developments in local government in Sierra Leone?
  Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, the provision with regard to local government in Sierra Leone is in a transitional state, and there are proposals for a wide extension of the powers of district councils.

  MALAYA

    Terrorists (Surrender)
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many terrorists surrendered in Malaya during the months of January, February, March, April and May of this year.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The figures are 39, 36, 30, 29 and 14. During the first half of June the rate of surrenders rose again to an average of one a day.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Does my right hon. Friend consider these figures satisfactory, and is he aware that while the recent statement of General Templer is good as far as it goes, the fact is that war may continue for some time to come, and so these figures are disconcerting to everybody? Would my right hon. Friend care to enlarge on them?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The decline in surrenders which these figures show during those five months is not due to any stiffening of morale among the terrorists because the evidence is that their morale is deteriorating. The reduction in the figures may be because surrender is difficult in the deep jungle. As I said, the rate is now up to one a day.

    Situation (Military Forces)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the pronouncements by General Templer that the situation in Malaya has improved, it is the Government's intention to reduce the size of United Kingdom military forces in that Colony.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Her Majesty's Government hope in the near future to reduce by one battalion the United Kingdom Forces in Malaya—which I must remind the right hon. Gentleman is not a Colony. As more local forces become fully trained and equipped further reductions of those forces may be possible, but Her Majesty's Government will remain responsible for the defence of Malaya against external aggression. It is their firm intention to discharge that responsibility to the full extent of their resources.
    Mr. Shinwell: Yes, but in view of the frequent pronouncements of General Templer, the High Commissioner, which are of an optimistic character, indicating that there has been a substantial improvement, does the right hon. Gentleman content himself with the removal of one battalion out of more than 40 battalions, apart from other military ancillaries?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The statements by General Templer, to which I think the right hon. Gentleman refers, relate essentially to the internal situation in Malaya. He must know, as I have said, that we are responsible for external defence and have to take into account such things as the situation in Indo-China.

    Rubber Industry
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the ban on the export of rubber from Malaya to China was imposed because of the war in Korea; and what steps have been taken to lift this ban immediately an agreement in Korea is signed.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir. On the second part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 18th June by the Joint Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes).
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that when the ban was imposed nearly two and a half years ago Malaya loyally carried it out and refused to export rubber to China, but other countries continued to export rubber to China; and the result will be that when the war ends those countries will find themselves at the winning point while Malaya will be at the starting point? Will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to encourage trade between Malaya and China when the war ends?
    Mr. Lyttelton: That is a hypothetical question, but the embargo cannot be lifted without contravening Her Majesty's Government's obligations under the Agreements of the United Nations General Assembly of 18th May, 1951. Therefore any action in this matter must be conditional on obtaining their agreement.
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will take steps to broaden the terms of reference of the Malayan rubber industry inquiry so that it will include wages and working conditions, the effect of the production of synthetic rubber upon the industry and the need for establishing a system of unemployment insurance for the workers.
    Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir. This inquiry is being instituted not by the Government of the Federation of Malaya alone but by agreement between that Government and the industry to deal with certain specific problems of common concern to both.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that any inquiry which does not embrace every phase of the industry will turn out to be a farce? Should he not include in the inquiry the wages of the planters, the conditions in the industry, the control of prices, and the production of synthetic rubber and its effect on the production of natural rubber in Malaya?
    Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir. I think the hon. Gentleman is wrong here. I do not consider it correct for this body to consider wages and working conditions, which are matters for negotiation between the unions and the employers.

    Legislative Council Elections (Committee)
    Mr. Ian Winterbottomasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of the Federation of Malaya has yet determined the composition and terms of reference of the proposed committee on elections to the Federal Legislative Council; and whether he will give an assurance that the committee will have the advice of persons experienced in the conduct of democratic elections.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The composition and terms of reference of this committee have not yet been finally settled. The committee is to be as representative as possible of all substantial interests in Malaya, and I have no doubt that it will seek any expert advice for which it finds need.
    Mr. Winterbottom: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the views of those who organise elections in,

    1895
    for instance, the Gold Coast, where there is a large illiterate population, will be consulted?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I find it difficult to give any pledge on that matter before the committee has been formed.

  CENTRAL AFRICA

    Proposed University (U.K. Association)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent it is intended that Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom should be associated with the administration of the proposed Central African University.
    Mr. Lyttelton: As I made clear to the House on 6th May, Her Majesty's Government take a lively interest in this project. They have no doubt that there will be full consultation between governments over its establishment and the provision of assistance from this country. But, as the hon. Lady will be aware, it is customary for universities to enjoy a high degree of autonomy; and it is not contemplated that this institution, once established, should be administered by any government.
    Mrs. White: While agreeing with the last part of the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman, will he not agree that as the Government in this country are likely to be called upon for a grant of more than £1 million, and as really vital decisions are being taken now in Central Africa, it is desirable that there should be some close association between this Government and those responsible for taking these important preliminary decisions?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I think the hon. Lady is confusing preliminary decisions with a matter of administration; they are two different things. Naturally, before making a grant, Her Majesty's Government will satisfy themselves that the Charter of the University is one of which they approve. Having done so, they must leave the administration to the local people.

    Letters, Nyasaland (Delivery)
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that letters sent to a particular person
    1896
    in Nyasaland are being refused delivery and returned to the sender; and by what authority this is being done.
    Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir; but if the right hon. Gentleman has any more precise information which he would care to give me I shall be glad to look into the matter further.
    Mr. Dugdale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have here a letter addressed from Dr. Hastings Banda in this country to Chief Msamala, that it was stated to have been refused by the addressee but that in fact the Chief has stated he never refused to open the letter and never had any recollection of having received the letter?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Of course I am not aware of what the right hon. Member has in his hand, because he has not communicated it to me. I repeat what I said in my reply, that if the right hon. Member cares to give me more information I will look at it.

    Mr. Davidson, Kenya (Deportation)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why Lieut.-Commander Davidson was deported from Kenya to the United Kingdom, where he has had no home since 1926, without being given the option of going to other places in the Commonwealth with which his connection has been more recent.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I understand that Mr. Davidson refused to supply any information to the Governor about his alleged domicile in Australia, and was therefore deported to the United Kingdom, as this appeared to be the part of Her Majesty's dominions to which he belonged.
    Mrs. White: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that according to statements made by Commander Davidson he was told only half an hour before he was taken to the ship to which country he was to be deported, that he has a house in Northern Rhodesia and some property but no home nor friends in this country, and his wife is in Australia?
    Mr. Lyttelton: It does not take half an hour to say to which country one belongs. He refused the information and anything that happened was his own fault.

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES

    Development (Legislation)
    Mr. Vaughan-Morganasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will announce the intentions of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the renewal of the Commonwealth Development and Welfare Acts.
    Mr. Braineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in order to ensure continuity in Colonial development and welfare schemes, especially research schemes, he will make a statement concerning the future of the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir. I am asking Colonial Governments and other authorities concerned to provide me with material on which this Government can approach Parliament for further funds for colonial development. I hope it will be possible to introduce the necessary legislation early in the 1954–55 Session.
    Meanwhile, I am telling Colonial Governments that they may proceed on the assumption that the period in which the £140 million provided under the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts of 1945 and 1950 may be spent will be extended by legislation beyond 31st March, 1956.
    I am also telling them that, where necessary for essential development, they may enter into commitments extending beyond 1956 and over and above the £140 million already provided, on the understanding that Her Majesty's Government will in due course ask Parliament to vote the necessary moneys. Such advance commitments will be limited to a total of £7 million and will not be made without the concurrence of the Treasury.
    There is a further matter of which I should inform the House. Because of the serious world rice shortage, we have thought it necessary to make funds available to a maximum of £3 million for promoting the production of rice in the Colonies. Expenditure on such schemes is proper to the existing Colonial Development and Welfare Acts, but we do not wish it to displace desirable developments in other directions. These special schemes for growing rice may therefore in due course involve allocations, and ultimately expenditure, in excess of the existing statutory limit of £140 million. The legislation to which
    1898
    I have referred will also, if necessary, provide cover for expenditure up to £3 million which may be incurred under these arrangements.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]
    I should make it clear that there is no question of authorising in advance of the new legislation actual expenditure in excess of the existing statutory limits. But the House should be aware that Colonial Governments may in the interim be entering into commitments, to the extent which I have indicated, on the understanding that the necessary funds to meet these commitments will be provided by Her Majesty's Government under the new legislation.
    Hon. Members: Speech.
    Miss Lee: On a point of order, which I address most respectfully to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the Minister who is on his feet. It is difficult to follow such a long statement as the Minister is now making. Secondly, it is jeopardising the opportunity of hon. Members who have Questions later on the Order Paper. Could we have an extra few minutes at 3.30, or could not such statements be made at the end of Questions?
    Mr. Speaker: I cannot allow more time than is allowed by Standing Orders.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I apologise for the length of the answer, but I am trying to answer two Questions at once. Of course the answer will appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The remainder of it is as follows:
    I can see no other way of ensuring that the continuity of colonial development is not interrupted, and I feel confident that I have the full support of the House in the action I am now taking.
    I would remind the House that the expenditure of Colonial development and welfare funds also opens up further fields for private investment.
    Mr. Vaughan-Morgan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement, which will ensure the continuity of colonial development, will be widely welcomed throughout the Colonial Territories, and at least on this side of the House? Will there be an opportunity for this House to discuss, at the same time as they discuss the future of

    1899
    colonial development and welfare, the terms of reference of the Colonial Development Corporation, which are closely tied up with this matter?
    Mr. Braine: Whilst warmly congratulating my right hon. Friend on the wise and timely decision to concentrate on rice development, which is of enormous importance, may I ask if he will give some indication of the information for which he is asking the Colonial Governments?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The Colonial Governments and other authorities are being asked for an estimate of what help they want under these funds. Due allowance is being made for what they can contribute themselves.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The statement the right hon. Gentleman has made is important, and this is one of the most valuable agencies we have developed in assisting Colonial Territories. I hope it will be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to persuade the Leader of the House to give a day on which we can debate the matter.
    Mr. Lyttelton: At the moment I am under some criticism for having made too full a statement.
    At the end of Questions—
    Mr. Swingler: Mr. Speaker, I should like to refer to the point of order that was raised during Question time by my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee). I am sure the whole House is grateful to you for your generosity in allowing several supplementary questions at the end of Question time. But would you make an appeal to Ministers to keep their answers as brief as possible so that as many Private Members as possible are able to ask Questions, and to ensure that when they have long statements to make, as occurred at Question time today, they should ask your permission to make those statements after Questions instead of taking up the time of Members?
    Mr. Speaker: I have frequently delivered injunctions to this House on the virtues of brevity, and these apply to Ministers as well as to Private Members.
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank): May I be allowed to say that that is a rule which Ministers do try
    1900
    to follow, but today there was a misunderstanding about the long statement. I hope that the House will accept that explanation.
    Mr. Speaker: I am sure from my experience that today's occurrence is quite exceptional.

    British Policy (U.S. Publicity)
    Mr. Russellasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will instruct the Colonial Attaché in Washington to make more widely known among Members of the United States Government the policy and purpose of British rule in the Colonial Territories.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to him on 18th March. It is part of the attaché's main function as adviser on colonial matters to Her Majesty's Ambassador to assist the Embassy in explaining our policies to U.S. Government officials at all levels.
    Mr. Russell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in a recent speech in the Middle East the United States Secretary of State referred to what he called "The old Colonial interests of the Allies of the United States"? Does he not think such remarks very unhelpful and completely out of date? Could he press on our attaché in Washington to do even more to bring that home to the American Government?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Her Majesty's Government regard it as of high importance to make the nature of our policies known and we shall spare no effort in doing that.

    Forestry (Replanting)
    Sir H. Roperasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what policy is being pursued for the replanting of depleted forest areas in the Colonial Territories.
    Mr. Lyttelton: In many Territories local legislation provides for the establishment of forest reserves. In Territories where forestry is comparatively advanced, such as Malaya, the Western Region of Nigeria, Trinidad and Cyprus, fellings in any one year are restricted, either by acreage or by volume, to allow for regeneration by natural seedling growth. In

    1901
    less advanced Territories, commercial extraction is controlled by regulations prohibiting the felling of trees of less than a prescribed girth. In some Colonies, particularly in East and Central Africa, depleted indigenous forests are being replaced by plantations, often of coniferous softwoods.
    Sir H. Roper: Is my right hon. Friend able to assure us that effective policies are in operation in all our Colonial Territories where there are forests?
    Mr. Lyttelton: No, I will not say that effective measures are in force everywhere, but we are trying to see that they come into force everywhere.

  AGA KHAN SCHOOLS, EAST AFRICA
  Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what reply has been made to the request that African children should be admitted to the Aga Khan schools in East Africa.
  Mr. Lyttelton: I am not aware of any such requests.
  Mrs. White: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Commission on Higher Education in Central Africa published a statement that three times the authorities concerned with these schools, which are partly financed by the Government of Kenya, have requested from the Government their concurrence in opening the schools to African children? Will he see that this effort towards improving race relations in Kenya is fostered?
  Mr. Lyttelton: These schools are charitable institutions backed by the Aga Khan's followers for their own community. They are an admirable example of self-help which deserve every encouragement. The racial composition of students attending the Institute in November, 1952, were Asians, 100; Arabs, 28; Africans, 28; and Somalis, five.

  MAURITIUS (FRANCHISE TEST)
  Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what literacy test is applied for the adult franchise in Mauritius; and how many persons are thus qualified.
  Mr. Lyttelton: Any British subject over 21, fulfilling certain residential and other conditions, can qualify for registration as an elector by satisfying the authorities of his ability to read and write simple sentences, and sign his name, in one of nine languages commonly in use in Mauritius. Ninety thousand two hundred and seventy-seven electors are so qualified out of a total registered electorate of 92,242.
  Mr. Johnson: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is keen feeling in the island that there should be universal franchise for all those over 21? Can he tell the House whether he is even considering this possibility in the near future?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I think if the hon. Gentleman examines my answer he will see that we have gone a very long way towards meeting his idea.
  Mr. Johnson: But 90,000 is perhaps something less than 20 per cent. of the population.

  SINGAPORE (WOMEN'S HOSPITAL)
  Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that 14,000 confinements take place on an average annually at the Kandang Kerbau Women's Hospital, Singapore; that it has no residential quarters for house surgeons or registrars, and no living-in quarters for students doing their obstetric cases; that the proposed improvements are inadequate to meet the needs of the indigenous population; and if he will take steps to speed up extensions to living quarters, theatres, ward and sanitary accommodation.
  Mr. Lyttelton: I am well aware how much the staff of this hospital have achieved despite inadequate accommodation and facilities. Improvements covering all the items mentioned have already been started and I see no reason to intervene.
  Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that consideration was given in 1948 to improvements in this hospital; that nothing had been done since then, until recently; and that all that is to be done now is to increase the accommodation by 500 beds, when 3500 are needed? Is he

  1903
  aware that in a hospital in London, where 3,000 operations are carried out, they have two theatres, whereas in this hospital, where 14,000 operations are carried out, there is only one theatre? Will he do something to hurry the provision of the necessary accommodation?
  Mr. Lyttelton: Yes. I have already said that I am not responsible for what happened in 1948 or for delays which occurred at that time. All these matters are now in hand.

  CABINET (MINISTER OF EDUCATION)
  Mr. Peartasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the Eighth Report from the Select Committee on Estimates, dated 20th May, 1953, he will reconsider his decision not to include the Minister of Education in the Cabinet.
  Dr. Kingasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the position of school accommodation, he will revert to the practice of including the Minister of Education in the Cabinet.
  Mr. Swinglerasked the Prime Minister whether, in the light of the Report of the Select Committee on Estimates on Schools, he will now reconsider the desirability of including the Minister of Education in his Cabinet.
  Mr. Crookshank: I have been asked to reply to these and other Questions addressed to the Prime Minister today.
  No, Sir. My right hon. Friend sees no reason to increase the size of the Cabinet in this way. The Minister of Education is always summoned when any matter affecting her Department is raised, and like other Ministers of Cabinet rank she can always ask to come for this purpose.
  Mr. Peart: Will the Leader of the House convey to the Prime Minister the very widespread disquiet caused by the findings of this Report? Will he convey to him that there is an overwhelming opinion in the country which feels that he made a bad decision when he reduced the status of the Minister? Is it not about time that education had top priority? May I have an answer?
  Mr. Crookshank: The Question which was addressed to the Prime Minister concerned the inclusion of the Minister of
  1904
  Education in the Cabinet, and that I have answered. The other questions are largely matters of opinion.
  Dr. King: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is wrong to lay the blame on the Minister of Education for her failure to appreciate the gravity of the educational accommodation problem when directives on the educational building programme come from a Cabinet from which she is excluded? Will the right hon. Gentleman convey to the Prime Minister that the gravity of the situation warrants a change in view of the disastrous setback to education which was initiated by this decision?
  Mr. Crookshank: I have no doubt that the Prime Minister will take note of these expressions of opinion by hon. Members, but his own position has been made quite clear in the answer which I have given.
  Brigadier Peto: Is my right hon. Friend aware that although the Labour Administration included the Minister of Education in the Cabinet, that had little or no effect on the number of old schools in need of repair and renewal in October, 1951?
  Mr. Crookshank: That, again, I think, is in accordance with the facts.
  Mr. Swingler: Will the Leader of the House draw the Prime Minister's attention to the fact that there are 170 fewer schools under construction today than there were two years ago? Will he ask the Prime Minister whether it is not desirable to have the Minister of Education in the Cabinet, if only to challenge the phoney figures of educational building put out by the Minister of Housing and Local Government?
  Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are not so much concerned with increasing the size of the Cabinet as with improving its quality?
  Mr. Nicholson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Eighth Report of the Committee on Estimates made no political charges or implications, so that if any are drawn the inference is that more blame is to be attached to the previous Administration than to the present Administration?

  MINISTRY OF MATERIALS (FUTURE)
  Mr. Peartasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the future of the Ministry of Materials.
  Mr. Crookshank: My right hon. Friend has nothing to add to the reply given on 19th March last.
  Mr. Peart: In view of the pressure from his own back benches, revealed on the Order Paper, to disband this Ministry, will the Minister ensure, before the Cabinet appeases the rank and file of the Tory Party, that there is an adequate supply of materials for school building, in view of the Eighth Report of the Select Committee on Estimates? May I have an answer?

  KOREA (U.N. INTELLIGENCE SERVICES)
  Mr. Swinglerasked the Prime Minister if he will propose to President Eisenhower that representations should be jointly made to the United Nations Organisation for an immediate inquiry into the state of the intelligence services at the disposal of the United Nations Command in Korea, in view of their failure to discover and forestall the plan to release certain prisoners of war in South Korea.
  Mr. Crookshank: My right hon. Friend has nothing to add to the reply he gave on Monday to the supplementary question by the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee).
  Mr. Swingler: Would the Leader of the House ask the Prime Minister to reconsider this matter in spite of his reply the other day? Does he not think it desirable that any inquiry of this kind should be held on a United Nations basis and not on a strictly American basis, as all the United Nations are involved in the results of the escape of prisoners? Will he ask the Prime Minister to reconsider this question with a view to making an approach to President Eisenhower to discuss the matter?
  Mr. Crookshank: I am sure that the Prime Minister will note what the hon. Gentleman has said, but my right hon. Friend was quite specific in the reply which he gave the other day.

  GERMANY (EAST BERLIN DEMONSTRATIONS)
  Mr. F. Macleanasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the use of armed force by the Soviet-occupying authorities against the civilian population in Eastern Germany: and what action he has taken in the matter.
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Prime Minister what information he has regarding the recent outbreak of rioting in Eastern Berlin; and how many British subjects have been involved.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I have been asked to reply.
  According to my information, the events in Berlin last week were preceded by strikes and demonstrations at many points in the Eastern Zone of Germany against the repressive Communist régime. In Berlin itself a spontaneous protest strike on 16th June developed on the following day into a widespread demonstration against the East German Administration.
  When late on 17th June the authority of the East German Administration had broken down completely, the Soviet occupation authorities moved three divisions of troops into East Berlin, imposed martial law and took firm measures to restore order. Although the Russians appear to have behaved so far with restraint, a number of East Berlin citizens have been killed and wounded. In addition a West Berlin citizen has been summarily executed, and at least seven people died in the Western sectors after being carried in from the Eastern sector, and over 100 wounded are now in the Western sectors.
  All communications between East and West Berlin were severed with serious results upon the life and economy of the city. In fulfilment of their duty to protect the interests of the population, a firm protest was made by the three Allied commandants to the Soviet representative in Berlin on the evening of 18th June.
  Since the weekend, the situation in East Berlin appears to be gradually returning to normal. The Soviet and Allied authorities in Berlin are now in touch regarding the early resumption of communi-

  1907
  cations. The picture of events in the Eastern zone as a whole is not yet clear. So far as we are aware, no British subjects have been involved.
  Contrary to Soviet allegations, these demonstrations were neither provoked by, nor directed from, the West. In expressing sympathy for those who have suffered and admiration for their courage, Her Majesty's Government must equally counsel prudence and restraint so that further bloodshed and suffering may be avoided.
  The Prime Minister has received a personal message from the German Federal Chancellor appealing to Her Majesty's Government to do all in their power to realise the unity and freedom of the German nation. He intends to inform Dr. Adenauer in reply that Her Majesty's Government are in full accord with the spirit of this message. We have frequently made clear that our aim is a Germany reunited in freedom. We believe that the only way to achieve this is on the basis of the practical proposals contained in the note of the three Western Powers to the Soviet Government of September last year, but to which no reply has yet been given. The resolution passed in the Bundestag on 10th June shows that this is the policy of the German Government Coalition and also of the Social Democratic opposition.
  Meanwhile I repeat that Her Majesty's Government are resolved to adhere most faithfully in the spirit as well as in the letter to their commitments to Western Germany, and that Western Germany will in no way be sacrificed or cease to be master of its own fortunes within the agreements we and other N.A.T.O. countries have made with her.
  Mr. Maclean: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the action of the British authorities in Western Berlin in flying their flag at half-mast as a tribute to the victims of this barbarous massacre will command widespread approval in all quarters of this House and in the country as a whole?
  Mr. Bellenger: Although the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that the Soviet authorities have shown considerable restraint, is not it a fact that several courts-martial have taken
  1908
  place under their auspices and that German citizens have been shot accordingly? Does he call that the sort of restraint we should exercise in our zone?
  Mr. Lloyd: After the complete breakdown of the East German Government martial law was declared. Three divisions—I think three mechanised divisions—moved in to take over law and order——
  Mr. Bellenger: Against helpless people.
  Mr. Lloyd:—and in the circumstances I think there was a considerable amount of restraint.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman had access to reports of the trials now taking place in East Germany, where confessions on oath made in public hearing—[Laughter]—I will repeat that, with your permission, Mr. Speaker; where confessions have been made in public hearing that Nazis and agents provocateurs from the West Zone of Berlin have been bribed and had promises made to them of monetary reward if they were to join in and help to create disturbances in the Eastern Zone—confessions made in public hearing in East Berlin? Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman had a report of that?
  Mr. Lloyd: I am aware of the report of the interrogation of one man which led to such statements being made, but one would want to know much more about the interrogation and how it was conducted.
  Mr. Wyatt: Is the Minister really trying to condone the action of the Soviet authorities in, for example, taking out Willi Goettling, an ordinary German worker who knew nothing about politics whatever, and shooting him without a trial?
  Mr. Lloyd: I am certainly not trying to condone any such thing.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: While the Soviet authorities will no doubt note the unequivocal statement of my right hon. and learned Friend that in no way were these activities in East Berlin inspired or promoted by any Western agents, may I ask if my right hon. and learned Friend would consider the possibility, the advisability, in view of the likelihood that ultimately there will be a Four-Power conference, of making special representations

  1909
  upon this subject in Moscow through Her Majesty's Ambassador?
  Mr. Lloyd: I should like time to think about the question of my noble Friend.
  Mr. Blyton: Is the Minister aware that trade unionists in this country view with horror the punishment meted out to the demonstrators against intolerable economic conditions? Is he further aware that the Russian attitude to this peaceful demonstration which resulted in this tragedy is against the Charter of Human Rights of the United Nations?

  ATOMIC WEAPONS (AUSTRALIAN TESTS)
  Mr. G. R. Strauss(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Supply whether he has any statement to make about the plans for further atomic tests.
  The Minister of Supply (Mr. Duncan Sandys): Following upon the successful atomic explosion at Monte Bello last October, we are proceeding with the development and testing of atomic weapons to meet various service requirements. The next tests will be undertaken in collaboration with the Australian Government in an isolated area on the Woomera Rocket Range.
  The necessary preparations are being made jointly by the United Kingdom and Australian Ministries of Supply with the assistance of the Australian Army and Royal Australian Air Force. Apart from the provision and erection of scientific equipment, the work entails the establishment of living quarters, communications, water supply and other facilities. Owing to the remote location of the site, this will involve a considerable effort.
  When the time comes to carry out these tests, every precaution will be taken, including a careful selection of meteorological conditions, so as to avoid any possible risk of radio-active contamination of inhabited areas and grazing land. The Government of Australia, advised by their own scientists, will satisfy themselves as to the adequacy of the safeguards for the protection of life and property.
  A similar statement is being made in Canberra by the Australian Government.
  Mr. Strauss: The Minister spoke of the considerable effort necessary for the tests and no doubt the great expenditure
  1910
  of money. I wish to ask if he can say approximately what the cost is likely to be, and whether it is being shared with the Australian Government in the same way as before?
  I would ask further if, in view of the great expenditure involved, it is possible to induce the American authorities to alter their attitude in this matter and let us make joint tests with them, with our scientists and theirs using existing test facilities? Have efforts been made during recent months to try to obtain American agreement to joint tests and a general interchange of information as a result of these tests?
  Mr. Sandys: I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman precise figures of costs, but he knows as well as I do that nothing connected with atomic energy is inexpensive. The expenditure in Australia will be met partly by the Australian Governmen and partly by the United Kingdom Government.
  As regards the exchange of information with the United States, as the House knows, every effort has been made to establish the closest possible contacts and relations, but the matter is governed by legislation in the United States.
  We have had no approach from the United States Government about these tests but if we should receive any requests for observers to be present I have no doubt that we should be very happy to discuss with them arrangements for reciprocal facilities.
  Mr. Bowles: Is it the intention of the Government to send the right hon. Gentleman or some other senior Minister out to this place to see this explosion?
  Mr. Sandys: There is no such plan. I have seen it said in the papers that the fact that I and other Ministers are going to be in Australia in the autumn is connected with these tests. There is absolutely no connection.
  Mr. Bowles: Will the right hon. Gentleman change his mind?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on the Rhodesia and Nyasaland Federation Bill exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Crookshank.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  RHODESIA AND NYASALAND FEDERATION BILL
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 18th June].
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  RHODESIA AND NYASALAND FEDERATION BILL

    Clause 1.—(POWER BY ORDER IN COUNCIL TO ESTABLISH FEDERATION, ETC.)
    Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 11, after "Court," insert:
    "A Federal Human Rights Commission:"—[Mr. Brockway.]
    Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    3.45 p.m.
    The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs (Mr. Henry Hopkinson): I think that the whole Committee will be indebted to the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) and his hon. Friends for having put down this Amendment, which has enabled us to discuss the issue of the reduction and the eventual elimination of racial discrimination in these territories. My right hon. Friend has made it clear on many occasions that both he and Her Majesty's Government sympathise with the objectives of this Amendment.
    In the course of the speeches on Thursday last, there was reference to the activities of the United Nations in this field. That, of course, generally speaking, is a matter for the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, but Her Majesty's Government have continuously participated in the work of the United Nations in the field of human rights. I myself, representing the Government on the Fourth Committee of the United Nations Assembly last autumn, participated in drafting a resolution, which was finally adopted on 11th December, dealing with this subject of racial discrimination in non-self-governing territories. The fact is that Her Majesty's Government throughout from the beginning when they subscribed to the Declaration of Human Rights in 1948 until today, have played a very full part.
    It must, however, be borne in mind, that unlike what the hon. Gentleman suggested the other day, the Declaration of Human Rights is, in fact, a statement of aims and not a legal obligation. The
    1912
    present Leader of the Opposition, in January, 1949, was asked whether the Government would take steps to initiate in British domestic and Colonial legislation such legislation as was necessary to bring it into line with the principles laid down in this Declaration, and the then Prime Minister made it perfectly clear that the Declaration was a statement of aims and principles only, and he said that there was no obligation to give early legislative effect to any provision with which United Kingdom and Colonial laws might be at variance.
    Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: In my speech I gave a number of instances where, in the case of a trusteeship council, in the cases of State constitutions and of peace treaties, the terms of the Declaration of Human Rights have actually been included in agreements or constitutions. I pointed out that the terms of the Declaration itself actually applied to the Bill which is now before the House. As we are handing over these very important powers, cannot the right hon. Gentleman include in this constitution both the Declaration and an instrument to carry it out?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I am aware of the facts, but the hon. Gentleman said that this was an international obligation. I am merely pointing out that that is not the case.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: The right hon. Gentleman is making a statement of great importance. The Declaration, in the formal part, leaving out the preamble which is even more impressive, proclaims:
    "… this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition. …"
    Do we mean that or do we not? Have Her Majesty's present advisers gone back on this, or do they accept it? If they do accept it, what are they going to do about it in this Measure?
    Mr. Hopkinson: Of course we accept it. As I have said, I was responsible for drafting a resolution in the United Nations last year which carried out or

    1913
    was intended to carry out the effects of the Declaration. As the present Leader of the Opposition himself said, it is not a legal obligation. I want to make that point clear. I am sure that it is clear in this Committee, but it is important that it should be made clear in other places where what we say here will be read.
    I will get back to the present proposal, which is rather different from what the hon. Gentleman was referring to just now. The present proposal is one to set up a statutory Human Rights Commission in these Territories; it would form part of the law of the land. This goes much further than anything which has ever been debated at the United Nations. Apart from the constitutions in which references are made to the Declaration of Human Rights, all that has taken place at the United Nations is that from time to time there have been proposals for promoting local information groups or human rights committees; but, unless I am mistaken, no State, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has ever suggested that there should be anything more than consultation with voluntary organisations already existing.
    In the case which we are discussing, the need for a statutory body of this sort seems to be less obvious, because one of the main functions of the African Affairs Board, under paragraph 58 of the scheme, is to make representations to the Federal Government on any matter
    "within the legislative or executive authority of the Federation as the Board may consider to be desirable in the interests of Africans."
    That seems to me to be essentially positive in character and very much in line with what the hon. Gentleman was describing in his speech the other day, when he talked of some body which would have the continuous duty of watching developments and making continuous proposals to the Federal Parliament for the reduction of racial discrimination.
    The African Affairs Board will have exactly those rights and powers, and will be composed of responsible legislators, that is, members of the Legislature, which must be the ultimate authority which, in due course, will help to eliminate these practices and the other matters which we are discussing today.
    Mr. Hale: This point has been made several times. Does the question of the
    1914
    appointment of the chairman operate under the control of the Board? Is it intended that he should be an African chairman or not?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I should be going very wide of the Amendment if I were to discuss that now, but my right hon. Friend will deal with that point.
    Mr. John Dugdale: Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State is saying something which is intended to be heard by everybody?
    Mr. R. T. Paget Mr. R. T. Paget (Northampton) rose——
    Mr. Hopkinson: I really cannot give way; I have only a short time, and I must deal with this important Amendment and the important new Clause which is being taken at the same time.
    These persons are particularly well qualified to express views on this matter. In the first place, they will consist as to one-half of Europeans, specially appointed to represent African views, because they are in touch with the needs and requirements of Africans. The other half will be Africans themselves, selected from their members of Parliament. We believe that the powerful stimulus which this African Affairs Board will give, and the general support and encouragement which Her Majesty's Government, and, no doubt, this House will continue to give, towards the elimination of racial discrimination, will enable this process to go forward as rapidly and successfully as possible, having regard to the conditions in the Territories.
    We do not believe that the process would be accelerated by the establishment of a Human Rights Commission, as proposed in the Amendment. It is perfectly true that certain differential legislation exists in Colonial Territories, but much of it is, of course, intended to protect the less developed sections of the population against economic or cultural submergence or pressure from other communities.
    I do not imagine that the hon. Member for Eton and Slough would for a moment consider, when quoting the Declaration of Human Rights, that the present constitution of Southern Rhodesia should be altered so as to permit complete equality in regard to land tenure in favour of

    1915
    Europeans. He would not suggest that there should be no discrimination there, and, I imagine, neither would he suggest that we should eradicate all legislation in which there is discrimination against Europeans in the Gold Coast, Nigeria or the Sudan.
    That constitutes the bulk of the legislation which might be described as of a racial character in these Territories. On the other hand, there is discrimination which comes from the customs and practices of individuals and communities concerned. The hon. Gentleman gave us an impressive list the other day of instances of the colour bar or racial discrimination in the Rhodesias, and, of course, we know that certain forms of racial and social discrimination do exist, but let us be quite fair about it.
    Among the instances which the hon. Gentleman quoted the other day, he gave that of African customers in certain shops, and he said that they were served from hatches. First, let us bear in mind that, only about six months ago, after conversations with the Northern Rhodesian Government, the Associated Chambers of Commerce in Northern Rhodesia, which comprises almost all the businesses in Northern Rhodesia, sent a circular to their members urging them to consider the abolition of serving customers through windows, and the result has been that already there has been a great decrease in the number of shops which follow this practice. It is, as I know from my own experience out there, almost entirely maintained for practical purposes in grocery stores, butchers' shops, and so on, where goods which will deteriorate have to be handled, and which lie about on the counters.
    Mr. Paget: Cannot they be put on a shelf?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I do not want to go into details on this matter.
    To take the case of Lusaka, the capital, out of a total number of 102 retail shops, 80 admitted Africans without any distinction at all, four of them had separate counters, and only six of them served through hatches. These figures relate to the end of last year. To take the case of Post Offices with separate entrances for Africans, there are now only nine out of
    1916
    60, and, of the latter, only three have separate counters. In fact, the policy of building Post Office buildings with common entrances has been implemented since 1949 and is continuing today.
    On a number of other points which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, his remarks were so worded as to suggest that there was a complete ban on Africans, and that a hard and fast line was being followed, whereas there are changes going on all the time. It is precisely because these changes are taking place in the attitude towards the colour bar in Northern Rhodesia, and in Southern Rhodesia, too, that I feel that one must deplore such movements as that to which the hon. Gentleman referred the other day—the so-called "Break the Colour Bar Movement" in Northern Rhodesia.
    Surely, when these things are developing in the right direction, with the good will of the majority of the Europeans, and with evident signs of success, it cannot be right to encourage movements which attempt to secure their objectives by hostile demonstrations or by steps which are liable to lead to physical clashes or disorder. Such action can only lead, as in the case of the Union of South Africa, to the hardening of European opinion, the encouragement of reactionary elements and the frustration of the attainment of their objectives by the Africans themselves.
    The hon. Gentleman, and also the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) referred to the position of the Asian communities, not only in regard to the colour bar, but in regard to their political status in the new Federation. I am of course, aware, as the hon. Gentleman is, of the large number of Asians in these three Territories, but the fact that they are not mentioned in the federal scheme is no more significant than the fact that the European community are not mentioned either. There is, in fact, no difference at all in the way in which the scheme treats Asians and Europeans. In Northern Rhodesia and Southern Rhodesia, Asians will be on the common roll with Europeans.
    Mr. Brockway: Surely the hon. Gentle-way knows that in Southern Rhodesia the total electoral roll is 50,000, and that there are only 535 Asians on that

    1917
    common roll? How can it possibly be said that they are being treated in a similar way.
    Mr. Hopkinson: I have not got the figures, so I cannot give them to the hon. Gentleman, but there are a great many more Asians in Southern Rhodesia. From what I have seen myself, I know that Asians, if they choose to do so, could register for enrolment on the common roll, and I think that if the hon. Gentleman will look into the matter he will find that they amount to many thousands.
    The election of members to the Federal Assembly of Nyasaland will, until the Legislative Council of Nyasaland decides otherwise, be decided by the Governor-General, in agreement with the Governor in Council. I cannot say what these regulations will be, but I will willingly undertake to the hon. Gentleman to convey his view to the Governor-General and the Governor and suggest that it should be borne in mind when the time comes to frame these regulations.
    4.0 p.m.
    The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson), in a very useful contribution the other day, referred to what he described as "the need for a change in the cultural equilibrium." That is a phrase I like and I would not dispute it for a moment. I certainly agree that education is the keystone to this question of finding a real and genuine partnership in these Territories. He said something about the new multiracial university college at Salisbury. All I would say to him now is that I have noted his views on this question of no discrimination in regard to the living quarters of students and I will see that they are sympathetically considered.
    Mr. James Johnson: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. When I said that the site of this new university college was 250 acres he interrupted to say that, according to a cable he has received, it was 1,250. Could he make any further comment on this matter?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I am very glad to have this opportunity of making the point clear. It is only 250, although in the cable I saw it was given as 1,250
    1918
    acres, and I thought I was justified in interrupting the hon. Gentleman. I hope very much that it will soon be 1,250. That is what we should aim at. On the question of accommodation at hostels for students I assure the hon. Gentleman again that Her Majesty's Government attach very great importance to this matter, and we are sure that a solution can be found.
    Perhaps I may now sum up the views of Her Majesty's Government in regard to the proposed establishment of the Human Rights Commission as contemplated by the Amendment. The enactment of detailed legislation or the introduction of an artificial expedient of the kind proposed in the Amendment are not the answer. We consider that the African Affairs Board will go a long way to provide the machinery for securing the reduction and elimination of the practices of racial discrimination which the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends have in mind.
    The best safeguard against such practices lies in the continued advancement of the less highly developed communities, for which we believe the present scheme will cater, and in providing for the education of public opinion which will itself discountenance prejudice. This policy has been followed elsewhere and has been endorsed by successive Governments as the best, inasmuch as it will lead to the co-operation of the people themselves, the people actually concerned, in the settlement of their problems, rather than attempting to dictate from Whitehall exactly how they should run their lives.
    I turn to the proposed new Clause in the name of the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) and his hon. Friends. It has been argued in support of it that the value of paragraph 112—this was argued by the hon. Lady for Flint, East (Mrs. White)—which provides for non-discrimination on grounds of race in the Civil Service, is vitiated by the fact that in determining the suitability of a particular person for employment regard would be had to the circumstances of the locality in which he is employed.
    This paragraph was not put in without a great deal of thought—[Laughter.]—a great deal of discussion and thought. It is a very important point. It is not some-

    1919
    thing to jeer at at all. It occupied long hours of discussion and we believe that we have succeeded in achieving the desired end. I will give a few examples of what we had in mind when we put in the sentence at the end of the paragraph.
    Mr. Dugdale: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what the end desired was? That is the important thing.
    Mr. Hopkinson: To secure the elimination of racial discrimination in the Civil Service. That is what we were aiming at. In the postal and telegraph service in Nyasaland, all the junior grades are in the hands of Africans. The feeling was that it would be inappropriate and undesirable to attempt, at present, to infiltrate European employees into that Service. We believe that to introduce a European, simply because he had the right qualifications, and for him to arrive in Nyasaland and say, "I want to be employed here," would be completely wrong. For that reason we put in the particular phrase in paragraph 112.
    The same thing applies to postmasters elsewhere. Take the case of Southern Rhodesia. In the native areas the postmasters are all Africans. It would be quite inappropriate, and would receive a very hostile reception, for an attempt to be made to introduce a European. The same thing applies in reverse. In Salisbury——
    Mr. Hale: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to be saying that there would be a hostile attitude towards the introduction of a European into the junior grades and not into the senior grades? Is he not making the case that can be made in New York, that the liftmen there are nearly all coloured men?
    Mr. Paget: Would the wages in the junior grades be such as to tempt the whites?
    Mr. Hopkinson: There is no question of trying to secure elimination of Africans from the senior grades. I am discussing the junior grades and saying that at the moment it is undesirable to introduce members of European or African communities, as the case may be, simply because they possess the requisite qualifications. We want to have the right of control in that matter.
    1920
    As regards the headquarters of the Federal Service, which the hon. Lady raised and which are, of course, at Salisbury, I would simply refer the hon. Lady to paragraph 4 (2) of the federal scheme under which the Federal Legislature will have the right to establish a special area in Salisbury where the territorial laws will not apply, where there will be no question of applying any restrictions which may exist under Southern Rhodesian law, and where Africans and Europeans will be able to serve side by side with no limit whatever as to the posts which they can attain.
    Mr. Dugdale: The right hon. Gentleman said, a minute or so ago, "We want to have the right of control." Surely the essence of the scheme is that we shall not have the right of control and that the Federal Government shall have the right of control. When he says "We" does the right hon. Gentleman mean the Federal Government or us?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I beg the pardon of the Committee. Perhaps I did not make my meaning clear. I was thinking of ourselves when we were drafting the particular paragraph. It is, of course, the Federal Government who have the right of control.
    I think I might mention one further point to the Committee as it has an important bearing on the proposed new Clause. It refers to paragraph 112, on the eligibility for employment in the Federal Public Service of any member of the Civil Service capable of holding any office. The Clause has the same intention as the paragraph which we have put into the scheme, but which has been worded differently for the reasons I have explained.
    It is nothing new. In the Constitution of India, which, I think all hon. Members will agree, is a very fair and up-to-date constitution as far as racial and religious discriminations are concerned, it will be seen that in Article 16 the first paragraph says:
    "There shall be equality of opportunity,"
    and the second paragraph:
    "No citizen shall, on grounds of religion, race, caste … be ineligible for, or discriminated against in respect of, any employment or office under the State."

    1921
    But the third paragraph says:
    "Nothing in this Article shall prevent Parliament from making any law prescribing, in regard to a class or classes of employment or appointment to an office under the State … any requirement as to residence within that Slate prior to such employment or appointment."
    And it then goes on, in the next paragraph, to say:
    "Nothing in this Article shall prevent the State from making any provisions for the reservation of appointments or posts in favour of any backward class of citizens which, in the opinion of the State, is not adequately represented in the services under the State."
    Those are the same exceptions which we had in mind when we drew up Paragraph 112, and we believe it will have the desired effect of securing equality of treatment in the Federation's public service. For this reason, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will feel it possible not to press for this new Clause as we think that the objects which he and his hon. Friends have in view have already been fully met.
    Sir Frank Soskice: I propose to concentrate the observations which I wish to make particularly on the new Clause. I feel sure that the Minister of Stale for Colonial Affairs and the Secretary of State for the Colonies will have realised from speech after speech that has been made from this side of the Committee that one of the great anxieties of my hon. and right hon. Friends is this. They find in the scheme set out in the White Paper certain provisions. These provisions, such as Paragraph 112, are designed to give certain safeguards to the African population in the Territories. But what they do not find is any guarantee that when the Order in Council is made provisions of that sort will find their place in the Order.
    My case for the Clause very simply and briefly is this. When we look at Paragraph 112, we see that it contains what in our opinion is something of great value from the point of view of breaking down this colour bar, and we hope to find when the Order in Council is made that something of that sort will find its way into that Order. But when we look at this enabling Bill, we find that it is completely and absolutely bereft of any safeguard to ensure that that will be the case.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Perhaps it would help if I gave the assurance right away that that Paragraph 112 will be written into the Constitution.
    Sir F. Soskice: I am afraid that does not give me the assurance for which I am asking. If the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs tells me that that will be the case, why cannot the Bill say so? What is the difficulty?
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Oliver Lyttelton): Yes, certainly.
    Sir F. Soskice: The Secretary of State says "Yes, certainly." Is he saying that he is prepared to accept this new Clause?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I said it would raise quite other and wider questions. The right hon. and learned Gentleman will know, whether rightly or wrongly, that the method chosen by the Government has been to have an enabling Bill and an Order in Council. All we are prepared to say at this moment, unless the right hon. and learned Gentleman wishes the argument to range wider, is that the particular provisions in Paragraph 112 will be incorporated in the Order in Council. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman raises the question of why little bits of the Order in Council cannot be put into the Bill, that is another question.
    4.15 p.m.
    Sir F. Soskice: The Secretary of State has not added a word to what the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs has said, and both answers are unsatisfactory. I am not suggesting that the Government were wrong to have an enabling Bill; I am simply saying that it should contain such safeguards as that for which I am asking. It is no good the right hon. Gentleman saying that the method chosen is not wrong. I am not saying whether it is right or wrong, but simply that, whatever the method, he should accept what is contained in this new Clause.
    We on this side might well have been criticised by those who think as we do in not having gone further in the new Clause, which is to achieve a very modest objective. I ask the Secretary of State to look at it and think again, and see if he cannot at least put that modest provision for which we ask in the Bill.
    I am not arguing in favour of a Commission on Human Right, or anything of

    1923
    that sort. The Minister has given an answer which may or may not satisfy my hon. Friends. Probably, it will not. I am arguing whether this enabling Bill, remaining an enabling Bill, should not be altered to include what is asked for in the new Clause.
    What does the Clause ask for? It asks that the enabling Bill shall provide that when the Order comes to light it shall contain what the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs says it will contain. He said it will contain that, and I am very glad to hear him say so, but I want the enabling Bill so to provide that it is an Act of this Parliament and so that it is the combined expression of the will of this Parliament that the Order in Council is to contain as a matter of necessity the minimum obligation which this Clause enshrines. That minimum obligation is that any law of the Federal Parliament and any instruction or directive given by any person in the service of the Federal Parliament shall provide that no individual shall be regarded as incapable of or debarred from filling a post simply and solely on the ground of colour, creed or race.
    That is the minimum that anybody could ask for, and I am asking the Minister once again if that is what the scheme provides for in Paragraph 112. I gather from him that he concedes it is. If, in fact, he says that that is what is going to be in the Order in Council, why in the world cannot he give us the satisfaction of accepting this Amendment and putting what we ask for in the Bill?
    This stolid and obdurate refusal, first by the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs and then by the Secretary of State, cannot but engender suspicions in the minds of those of us who feel that we must watch extremely closely every step which the Government take to implement this scheme. We have been suspicious of it from the beginning, and this kind of attitude, not supported by any reason, but simply supported by generalisations which do not bear upon the subject under discussion, this kind of attitude, this sort of unreasonable refusal, simply heightens the suspicions of those of my hon. Friends who sit on this side of the Committee and of those who are outside the Committee and who are keenly watching the
    1924
    proceedings of the Committee this afternoon.
    I appeal to the Secretary of State and to the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs to give the matter further thought. What is the objection to putting it into the Bill? It cannot be because this is an enabling Bill There is no magic in the words "enabling Bill." An enabling Bill can contain in it what Parliament decides. I am asking that Parliament should decide that these words should be put into the Bill. Therefore, it is no answer to say that it is an enabling Bill. We have previously been met by the reply that the Bill could not be altered without the whole thing being re-negotiated with those parties who took part in the various discussions on this matter.
    The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs cannot give that answer here because this is simply following out what I have said the federal scheme contains and what he says will be in the Order in Council. What is the answer? Why cannot he give us an answer? Why must he leave us in a state of complete doubt about the Government's intentions by this obdurate refusal to accept a sensible proposal which would go some way to give a sense of security to the many millions of people dependent upon the provisions of this Bill and on the Order in Council to be made under it?
    I am very disappointed with the Minister's attitude. We have not had a single answer on the new Clause, but he has attempted to give an answer on the Amendment. He said that the African Affairs Board will partly cover the functions envisaged as those of the Commission. That may not be right and I should be very doubtful whether my hon. Friends would be satisfied with that. I cannot think what the Minister had to say about hostile demonstrations against the colour bar being undesirable had to do with the Clause. He and the Secretary of State have really excelled themselves in obduracy on this subject. I feel that the whole Committee and not only my hon. and right hon. Friends will feel that the Ministers have acted in a way that is utterly unreasonable and highly suspicious as well.
    Mr. Dngdale: My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Neepsend (Sir F. Soskice) has said that the Govern-

    1925
    ment have acted in an obdurate manner. There is increasing suspicion among all of us on this side of the Committee that in this respect the Government are unwilling to consider Parliament at all. They have made a deal and intend to stand by it, and nothing said in this Committee or the House of Commons will have any effect on them. The new Clause in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) is one that could easily be accepted if a deal had not been made.
    The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs has said that, roughly speaking, it represents words which will in fact go into the Order in Council. The only reason why he can possibly refuse to put those words in the Bill must be that it has been decided to put certain words in the Bill and no others, that is none except those already decided in advance of Parliamentary discussion. That is not treating Parliament with proper respect.
    Not only the new Clause in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly but also the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Fenner Brockway) expressed the feeling of abhorrence against racial discrimination of all of us on both sides of the Committee. Between 1939 and 1945 when we fought against the Nazis we fought, among other things, against their racial discrimination. That racial discrimination was not only shown in concentration camps. We want to see that we do not introduce the ghetto into Central Africa. Let us keep it out of Central Africa as we fought to keep it out of Europe during the war.
    It is perfectly possible that if the action which is suggested in Amendments on the Order Paper from this side of the Committee is not taken, we may see something like that established in Central Africa, just as it has been established already in South Africa. It is not only a question of action such as the establishment of concentration camps, action of physical brutality, but action of the kind which is designed to make a man feel inferior, action consisting of turning him out of hotels and cinemas and making him enter special parts of trains and use special entrances into post offices. All these things are designed to make him feel that somehow or other, because of
    1926
    the colour of his skin, he is inferior to others.
    However much he may educate himself, however much he struggles year in and year out in the new university which is to be created until he has achieved the level of education equal to that of the white man, he cannot alter the colour of his skin. That being so, the colour bar places upon him an inferiority which no amount of work on his own part can possibly remove. It may be said that the provisions which we suggest are not necessary if Sir Godfrey Huggins and Mr. Roy Welensky agree that there shall be no colour bar, or discrimination of any kind. But if they do agree why should they object to the Clause which we suggest should be inserted in the Bill? On the other hand, if they do not agree it is vitally necessary that such a Clause should be inserted.
    It is particularly necessary for one reason. Today many of the practices which I have described exist in Southern Rhodesia. Unfortunately, many of them also exist in Northern Rhodesia; but they do not exist in Nyasaland. Many of us fear that these practices may infiltrate into Nyasaland if federation should become a fact. It may be said that there are adequate safeguards. It is always said that there is the safeguard of the African Affairs Board, but I remind the Committee of the words used on 11th May, at Kitwe, by Mr. Roy Welensky. He said:
    "I will see to it that Africans do not go looking to the House of Commons as a place where they can appeal against the decisions of their own Government."
    I submit that that is not a statement which should be made by a responsible man in the British Commonwealth. It is a statement which shows grave disrespect to this House.
    It is typical of the attitude of mind of men like Mr. Welensky that African Affairs Board or no African Affairs Board, safeguards or no safeguards, they will do what they want to do. It is for this reason that we feel it essential to write the words that we propose into the Bill which will set up federation, so that Africans may be sure that in future they will have the rights which all of us, on both sides of the Committee, have so often said they deserve.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I intervene at this moment because earlier the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) questioned me about Amendments which alter the scheme and about incorporating in the enabling Bill certain parts of the matter which will be in the Order in Council. That is why, especially as the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Neepsend (Sir F. Soskice) has opened this subject again, I intervene.
    The speech made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) are largely shadow boxing, because we have already given categorical assurances that Paragraph 112 will be incorporated in the Order in Council. That ought to satisfy hon. and right hon. Members in all parts of the Committee that the object will be secured in this way. I can hardly believe that either the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Neepsend or the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich is calling in question the good faith of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs and myself when we assure them that this will be in the Order in Council. They both said our action engendered suspicion. Suspicion of what? Suspicion that it will not be in the Order in Council?
    Mr. Dugdale: As the right hon. Gentleman has challenged us specifically, I rise to say that I said it engendered suspicion because this provision was not being inserted in the Bill. I said that the suspicion was not that it would not be put in the Order in Council but that it could not be put in the Bill because of the arrangements already arrived at with the other two parties to federation.
    4.30 p.m.
    Mr. Lyttelton: That is mere shadow boxing. What matters to every hon. Member is that the provisions of Paragraph 112 of the scheme should be incorporated in the Constitution in such a way that they cannot be set aside by the Federal Legislature except by reference to the elaborate series of safeguards laid down in the scheme.
    Mr. Hale: The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs began by saying that the Declaration of Human Rights had no legal significance, but neither has Paragraph 112. If it is incorporated in the
    1928
    Order in Council there is no method of enforcing it. There is nothing obligatory about it. It is just the same sort of pious expression which the Minister of State used when referring to the Declaration of Human Rights.
    Mr. Lyttelton: This seems to be one of the hon. Member's electric hares. We must recognise that in all matters—not only that of racial discrimination—it is always possible for people of bad intent and bad faith to find reasons why they should not employ an African and should employ a European. There are many ways in which this can be set aside by people of bad intent, but when we are writing a constitution we must grant that most people will try to carry out what it says. I need not elaborate the point about the number of opportunities there are for cheating. We must recognise it.
    It is quite easy to envisage a situation where there is a vacancy for the post of economic adviser. A European from Oxford has presented himself for consideration, and so has an African from Cambridge. It is quite possible for the Government to say, "In this particular instance we consider that the Oxford economic school is more highly versed in this matter than that of Cambridge, so we will give the Oxford man the job." But it is going too far to say that in this case everyone is of bad intent and will deliberately seek to set aside something enshrined in the Constitution.
    It is only fair to the hon. and learned Member for Northampton and the right hon. and learned Member for Neepsend that I should deal with the further point which they raised—the question why we do not propose to accept this Clause as part of the enabling Bill. The real reason is that if we were to incorporate in the enabling Bill portions—and portions only—of the Order in Council, it would become amendable by different processes than those agreed to in the scheme, and that would be most impolitic. In theory, it is possible for the House to pass any legislation it cares to, and so far as the two Protectorates of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland are concerned it could, without any agreement with the Federal Government, do something which would be quite outside the terms of this scheme.
    Such action, though theoretically and constitutionally possible, would in prac-

    1929
    tice be impossible and most impolitic, because in this matter we are being asked to pass an enabling Bill and, ultimately, an Order in Council, which then sets up elaborate safeguards under which the provisions of the Constitution cannot be altered without reference to Her Majesty, this proposal to incorporate in the enabling Bill little bits and pieces from the Order in Council would not only be untimely but would be an invitation to the House to legislate over the heads of the Federal Government instead of doing what should be done, which is, if proposed alterations in the Federal Constitution are put forward and if, on the signification and reference to Her Majesty's pleasure a discriminatory or undesirable thing should be contained in those proposals, to act as a watch dog and say, "No, you cannot do it."
    This is a new principle—which I do not think we should accept; I call it a school-marm principle—of distrusting everything the Federal Legislature is likely to do and attributing to our fellow-countrymen in all parts of the world a most illiberal attitude. That charge is made because these words have no legal significance, and it is said that they are going to be observed only in the breach. There are a great many things in the House which are always observed, although they have no legal significance. If I were to say that I had received an assurance from hon. Members opposite that the Third Reading of this Bill would begin at 7.30 p.m., my statement would have no legal significance, but I should regard the word of hon. Members opposite as absolutely inviolable. On this particular matter, these words which are enshrined in the Constitution give the maximum safeguards that racial discrimination in the public service will not take place.
    The reasons why this should not be incorporated in the Bill but in the Order in Council are quite clear. Once we take pieces of an Order in Council and incorporate them in an enabling Bill we are setting up a different process of amendment and acting as school-marm to the Federal Legislature, whereas our position should be that of an arbiter, watchdog or umpire. We should not be the authors of legislation to be imposed on the Federal Legislature.
    Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas: The right hon. Gentleman has made the first substantial answer to the points raised by hon. Members on this side of the Committee, although it is an answer with which we disagree. If this proposal were incorporated in the Bill the Minister has just said that it would be subject to Amendment only by Parliament. That is a perfectly clear guarantee, over which Parliament has control. The other alternative—the one upon which he has decided—is that the proposal shall be incorporated in the Order in Council, in which case it will be subject to amendment not by Parliamentary procedure but by the procedure provided in the scheme, by a combination of the majority of the Federal Legislature with the assent of the Order in Council.
    What we are nervous about is that if the second alternative is adopted, Her Majesty's Assent, exercised by the Commonwealth Relations Office in respect of a federation which is on the brink of becoming a Commonwealth, will not be an effective safeguard. We propose that where a fundamental issue is involved—as there is in this human rights proposal—it should be incorporated in the Bill so as to be unalterable and safeguarded for ever more. It should be unalterable by any process under the scheme; unalterable except by Act of Parliament. To our minds the intervention which the Secretary of State has just made has completely given his case away. What we want is a guarantee of fundamental liberty incorporated in an Act of Parliament, and not amendable, as are matters incorporated in an Order in Council.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The hon. and learned Gentleman is being a little unfair to my right hon. Friend to say that he did not answer this particular point. This point was first raised by the right hon. and learned Member for Neepsend after my right hon. Friend had spoken.
    The intervention of the hon. and learned Gentleman is entirely misplaced, because no alteration in the Constitution and, consequently, in this Clause, can take place unless the House agrees. That covers the whole question. What I am anxious to avoid is to legislate over the heads of other people. In these matters it is quite impossible that any alteration

    1931
    could take place in the Constitution without the agreement of the House. That should satisfy the right hon. and learned Member for Neepsend and his hon. Friends. If it does not, that is too bad; there is a difference of opinion. I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that I have tried to meet him fairly, and have tried to reassure him on this point, which seems to me to boil down to a very small one.
    We have given an assurance that Paragraph 112 of the scheme will be incorporated in the Order in Council and, as everybody who studies the scheme knows, the Order in Council can only be amended by an elaborate process, which involves the signification of Her Majesty's pleasure and, consequently, the approbation or disapprobation of the House in the process.
    Miss Jennie Lee: I am quite sure that the Minister is not guilty of deliberate hypocrisy, but I think there is a great deal of subconscious hypocrisy in what he has said. We should not be having this debate today, and pressing our Amendment, if anyone who knew the facts of the situation believed that there was to be a movement towards ending racial discrimination which we all want, at least theoretically.
    A significant speech was made from the Front Bench opposite in opening today's debate. Three or four times, the Minister repeated that the Declaration of Human Rights was not a legal obligation but only a statement of aims. He kept repeating that and apparently he was extremely anxious that this should also be known in Africa. To whom was the Minister talking? Was he trying to say to the coloured people of Africa, "You cannot really expect much to be done" or was he trying to say to some of the reactionary white elements—I say "some" because the white elements are not all reactionary—in Africa, "You do not need to bother very much—this is just the British House of Commons talking."
    Mr. Hopkinson: All that I was trying to make clear was that by resisting the writing into this scheme of a provision for a Human Rights Commission we were not violating our international obligations. I do not want it to go out from this House, as I think the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway)
    1932
    would agree might be assumed from his speech the other day, that we might in some way be violating an international treaty.
    Miss Lee: It would not be a violation of international obligations because the world as a whole has not yet reached the civilised notion that there should not be discrimination, but if there is one country that ought to be setting an example it is our country, with all its obligations towards the colonial peoples.
    The Minister seemed to think that he was making a very important point when he kept repeating, "Do not let us play the school-marm." It may be that school teachers are a little on his conscience at the moment. On this side of the Committee we are perfectly prepared to respect the school-marm and to play the school-marm or to take up a maternal or paternal attitude if necessary.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I have maintained the attitude that more and more share in the management of their own affairs should be delegated to these people.
    Miss Lee: Precisely, but this ancient Assembly must take care of the children. We must see that they have the proper schools and proper school-marms and schoolmasters, and we have obligations. We have practical, historical and moral obligations to the coloured people who look to us and whose relations with us can be immensely sweetened, as we see in our relations with India.
    The fear on this side of the Committee is quite plain. We do not believe that the coloured people will get, under the federal scheme forced upon them, the respect and assistance they should have. I also noticed that the Minister, in his opening statement, rebuked my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) for having given moral support to breaking the colour bar movement. The only way of ending the colour bar movement is to end the colour bar. I hope that so long as the colour bar does exist in any form every sensitive and enlightened white man and woman as well as every coloured man and woman everywhere in Africa where protests had been made will identify themselves in every way possible with getting rid of the colour bar. It is not possible to talk of an awakening class, an awakening nation or an awakening race and

    1933
    expect it to remain half slave and half free.
    Some Members opposite have been discussing this issue today as if we were arranging the terms by which we were to play a game of bowls. We are not doing that. We are trying to give our moral and practical support to a continent in revolt, trying to see that, as a House of Commons, we are identifying ourselves with the ending of racial discrimination. We do not want any double-dealing or any twisting. We are not satisfied that the coloured people will have their rightful aspirations respected if this Bill is left in the present form and, therefore, I hope that we shall press forward with our Amendment.
    4.45 p.m.
    Mr. R. W. Sorensen: I want to speak briefly because many of these matters have been already mentioned. May I put this to the Minister? We accept him as a very enlightened man with liberal views, but surely he appreciates that he stands somewhat in contrast to many Europeans who are in the Central African Territories, particularly in Southern Rhodesia.
    It is not a question of having no confidence in the belief of liberal-minded people. We may have confidence in Europeans in Central Africa, as he has, but they do not represent the whole. Unfortunately, the deeds of Southern Rhodesia register what is their actual outlook. Many as individuals may be highly-desirable people, but in fact we know that in Southern Rhodesia large numbers have sought to establish and have helped to assist various types of colour bar. They are there. It was not the Africans who established them. Presumably they were established by those who have colour-bar prejudices in their minds now. They are a considerable number. Those, for instance, who in the referendum voted against the possibility of Central African Federation for a variety of reasons, but in many cases because they may have assumed that there would have been some kind of dilution of the colour prejudice if that scheme were established.
    Motives were different in the case of others who voted against federation. All that I am saying to the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs and to the Secretary
    1934
    of State for the Colonies is that they must recognise that there is a very great difference between those who, in this House, say they wish to see the complete dissolution of the colour bar and are working steadily towards it and, on the other hand, those Europeans in Central Africa who have either openly or secretly no such intention whatever. We are afraid that they will get into power and that once they are in power they will in some way impede the intention which the Minister no doubt has in mind.
    May I put another point to the right hon. Gentleman? This refers particularly to observations made by the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs some half-hour ago, when he deprecated the agitation in Central Africa against the colour bar. He did not want this to happen. What would his attitude be if, for instance, as a Conservative he suddenly discovered that a law had been passed depriving him of the rights which at the present moment he enjoys? This may seem an extravagant, perhaps even a fantastic hypothesis, but on the other hand it does not seem so fantastic or extravagant to many Africans. No matter how educated they may be, they find themselves at the present time suffering from the colour prejudice and placed in a position of inferiority.
    Let me put it another way. I ask the Ministers what would be their reactions if they themselves were educated Africans suffering from this colour prejudice and this colour discrimination. Would they be content merely to utter pious protests and be content to say, "In God's good time these things will change, and we will steadily work for a change," or would they, according to their own vitality, do all they could to protest, as others are protesting in Central Africa at the moment?
    I am perfectly certain that if the Secretary of State were in Central Africa now and were an African he would adopt every possible means to insist that he was equal to me, and probably superior. He would do so because he would say that there are times in the history of mankind when we must use not merely the traditional methods of discussion or of pleading, but some dramatic effort, and not merely to insist on inherent rights but also to try to secure, on the part of those who withhold them, an alteration of their attitude.

    1935
    I appeal to the Secretary of State and to the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs to appreciate what may seem very simple arguments, but are arguments that weigh very heavily indeed on the minds of Africans. As both right hon. Gentlemen know, and as we know on this side of the Committee, it is not a question of saying merely, as some contend, "The Africans are in a different stage of civilisation and cultural development, so we must go on slowly and steadily." Perhaps many of them are like that. It is not a question of that, however. It is a fact that, no matter how highly cultivated may be a Central African whom we meet here in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, or have tea with here in our Tea Room, and with whom we on both sides of the Committee have a close affinity of thought, no matter how close that African may be to us when he is here, he must in Africa suffer that callous and that immoral discrimination which here we should not tolerate for a moment.
    Because that discrimination is being practised now, and because the Secretary of State and the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs know that it is being practised, I come back to my earlier contention that this practice is an expression of an attitude that does prevail, and that that attitude may be implemented even more in the days to come, and that, therefore, the only right and just thing to do for the Africans is to make the provision which is proposed. I hope that the Secretary of State and hon. Members in all parts of the Committee will join with us in demonstrating that we utterly repudiate that large section of European opinion that does not share the sentiments and convictions we have in this Committee.
    So I do most earnestly appeal to the Secretary of State to engage in this task of educating European opinion. I think it was the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs who said we must try to educate people. Let us realise that there are many ways of educating them, and one way to educate them is by statute. If we can embody in this Bill the principles which he and all the rest of us in this Committee support we shall be taking one of the finest ways of educating that section of European opinion—an opinion which we do not share—by showing those who hold it what their moral duty is.
    Mr. Paget: The Colonial Secretary enunciated one of the most remarkable constitutional doctrines I have ever heard. He said that when we make a constitution we must assume that those who administer it will be men of good will who will honestly try to carry out the intentions of the parliaments. If one makes that assumption there is not the slightest point in making a constitution.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The hon. and learned Gentleman is off after an electric hare again. [Interruption.] There will be a good many more of these hares, I dare say, if we go on like this. The point is this. If something is inserted in a constitution that cannot be enforced legally we of course have to rely, as we do over the question of colour discrimination, on what, by and large, we may call the British way of people of good will. This does not apply to the 99 out of the 100 provisions which have legal force.
    Mr. Paget: I am not pursuing any hare. I am pursuing the precise constitutional doctrine that the right hon. Gentleman enunciated a few minutes ago, and I would say immediately that the whole purpose of a constitution is to prevent governors from abusing power. That is why we have a constitution, and there is no point, as history confirms, in having broad expressions of opinion of legal significance without sanctions behind them.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Why have Preambles to Acts?
    Mr. Paget: Why we have Preambles to Acts, I do not know. They are not very serviceable. What matters is what is in the statute. For instance, here we have a constitution which provides for human liberty, and it provides for human liberty not by a pious expression but by providing the right of Habeas Corpus, which can be enforced. If, for instance, the Government were to come here and say the Labour Party is abolished and proscribed, that doubtless it contains some honest men but since Mr. Christie is shown to be a member of the Ealing branch there can be no doubt about its murderous proclivities, we should proceed to carry on, and if they tried to stop us, the courts would deal with it. Where, however, we have merely a pious expression, as in Kenya, then, of course, the African party is abolished.

    1937
    What I am concerned with here is sanctions, because these vague expressions such as we have in Paragraph 112 in the Federal Scheme mean nothing at all. Sanctions are not necessarily legal sanctions. I concede that much. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the sanctions of agreements between the two sides of the Committee. They have behind them the sanction of public opinion, and this Committee has the means to express it. It may be here that we cannot have a legal sanction as to the particular question whether Mr. Black or Mr. White gets a particular job. We may have the sanction of public opinion, but that sanction can be effective only if it can have means of expression. That is why we ask for a Federal Human Rights Commission. Were this sort of undertaking to be abused the Federal Human Rights Commission would be in a position to carry out the expression.
    Again I refer to the African Affairs Board. It was mentioned by the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs, who said it had nothing to do with this Amendment as to who should be the Chairman. It is vital who is to be Chairman, because on who is Chairman depends what goes on the agenda. In any event, is the African Affairs Board in a position to deal with administrative appointments? Does that fall within its jurisdiction at all?
    Another way, perhaps, by which we could give sanctions, if we really believed in this, would be to have an independent appointments board, perhaps appointed by the judges and not by the Government. That is a manner in which this could be done, but, of course, in real practice there is not the slightest intention of applying the undertakings contained in their vague form in Paragraph 112.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Oh, really.
    Mr. Paget: Not the slightest. We have an example from what the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs said on the reservations to prevent white men infiltrating into the junior jobs in the Post Office. Does he really imagine that the wages paid for those jobs are such as to attract white men?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I was only quoting what Africans said to me at meeting after meeting in Nyasaland, including members
    1938
    of the Civil Service, just about a year ago.
    Mr. Paget: Do they really imagine that the wages paid in those junior grades are going to attract white men in those Colonies? It is complete nonsense. Does the right hon. Gentleman really imagine that Sir Godfrey Huggins and Mr. Roy Welensky really intend to build up a black Civil Service with Africans in the higher grades? But even if we make that assumption, which seems to be an extravagant one——
    5.0 p.m.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The hon. and learned Gentleman throws out these wild charges without the slightest justification. What he is now saying is that the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia and Mr. Roy Welensky subscribed to the paragraph, which they did, without the slightest intention of carrying it out. That suggestion is unworthy of the hon. and learned Gentleman and ought not to be made in the Committee.
    Mr. Paget: Let us look for a moment at the terms of Paragraph 112 and see to what they subscribed, because this is the shoddiest hypocrisy. It reads:
    "No person domiciled within the Federation who is a subject of Her Majesty or a person under Her Majesty's protection will on grounds of race only be ineligible for employment in the service of the Federal Government."
    Does that recommendation mean anything at all? It says "will be ineligible"; that is all. Certainly they will be ineligible; they will not be appointed.
    Even if we assume that there really is in the minds of Sir Godfrey Huggins and Mr. Roy Welensky an intention to introduce Africans into the higher ranks of their civil service, that will take a considerable time, and before we reach the stage when this really becomes practicable, who will be in charge there? Governments are not perpetual, and the opposition which has come into being there on the part of the Nationalists of the area has done so to attack Huggins and Welensky because they are too soft with the natives. Is it seriously imagined that the people who will be in charge have the slightest intention of going the way of India, so that they will find themselves in the position that, because their civil service has become Indianised, they can no longer govern? Is it really

    1939
    thought that that is the intention of those people? Of course it is nothing of the sort. The idea of these people is that this shall be an area where white supremacy shall be maintained. That is the basis upon which this civil service will be run, and there is absolutely nothing in the Bill to prevent it.
    Mr. Geoffrey Bing: The whole Committee can congratulate the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs who preserved throughout his speech an ingenuous note almost equal to that usually achieved by the Colonial Secretary himself. The Committee will recall that the right hon. Gentleman began by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) upon having raised the matter and provided an opportunity for discussion. No one would think from what the right hon. Gentleman said that his right hon. Friend had insisted that, if the discussion was to take place at all, it should take place either in time so restricted that the Committee could not go into it properly or else after midnight.
    History will not lightly forgive the Conservative Party who, when a question of British liberty and the future of a part of the Commonwealth arose, said that it must be talked about either after midnight or within the compass of a few minutes. Those who in the future look back upon the history of our time will not judge lightly those who were prepared to neglect African liberties for the convenience of the company directors and others on the benches opposite.
    The Colonial Secretary spoke about partnership and said that all these civil liberties should be in terms of partnership. He appears to have learnt his principles of partnership from the commercial methods of the great firm of John Lewis rather than from the more practical methods of partnership learnt in the comradeship of war. The hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) spoke on this very subject, describing how in 1940 and 1941 he noticed African troops among the South African troops but when he looked at the troops marching in the Coronation procession he saw not a single African among the South African contingent.
    1940
    That had no message or meaning for the hon. Member for Banbury, but it has a very simple meaning. It is an explanation of the terms of partnership in which the Colonial Secretary thinks. He thinks, as does the John Lewis partnership, that the junior partners should get everything except the profits, that it was all right for Africans to sacrifice their lives in the fight against Fascism but, says the Colonial Secretary, "if it comes to a matter of their getting the fruits of that liberty, that is carrying it too far. Why, they do not even do that in John Lewis's."
    Our whole attitude to the question is a test of our sincerity. Do we believe in racial equality? The Minister of State for Colonial Affairs said that everyone believes in it. Nevertheless, racial inequality exists in these Territories, and the practice of racial discrimination goes on all the time. Who are the people who have produced it? They are the people of good will about whom the Secretary of State speaks every quarter of an hour, the people into whose hands we are entrusting the Constitution; the very people who have introduced the racial inequality are those into whose hands we are putting the Government of the Territories. We are then told that we are ridiculous visionaries to suggest that safeguards should be introduced. It is like the liberty of the Ritz Hotel; it is free to everybody, the only question being whether one can afford it or not.
    There is a great deal of talk in the world about human rights. As a subject, human rights is a little too all embracing for hon. Gentlemen opposite, but they do at least subscribe to what they often describe as Anglo-American conceptions of liberty. There would be no harm if we were to introduce Anglo-American conceptions of liberty into some parts of our Commonwealth. I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen opposite have ever read the Declaration of Independence. It may well be that they have not, because for some peculiar reason it is one of the documents which are absent from the Library of the House of Commons. However, I have secured a copy of it from another source.
    We have been told how wrong it is that anyone should support in any way this type of opposition to the racial inequality which exists in South Africa, and how wrong it is to try to pursue a

    1941
    policy along those lines. I would remind hon. Members of what was said in what is, I suppose, regarded in the Anglo-American world as the classic statement of the principles for which everyone should strive:
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain un-alienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
    Can the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs and the Secretary of State lay their hands on their hearts and say that the Federal Constitution in any way corresponds with that Declaration? If right hon. Gentlemen opposite do not like the subject of human rights, let them look at the first amendment made by the Americans to their Constitution, for they all thought they were, among themselves, men of good will, and yet they found it necessary to introduce certain provisions to make certain that liberty was observed. What the American colonists thought was necessary among themselves when all of them had a vote the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs does not think the least necessary when nine-tenths of the people have no votes at all.
    The amendment said:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the Press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
    The spirit in which the Federal Constitution is being worked can be seen from the contemptuous way in which the petitioners against it have been treated. How on earth can it be said that the Constitution will be more liberal than those who framed it?
    Mr. John Mackie: The hon. and learned Gentleman has made great play with articles of the American Constitution and I have no complaint to make about that, but I should like to ask him whether in the past 170 years the colour question has been more favourably treated in the United States, where there is a written Constitution, or here, where there is an unwritten Constitution?
    Mr. Bing: The United States Constitution should perhaps have been more explicit on the question. Indeed, if the famous amendments passed after the
    1942
    American Civil War had been cast in rather a stronger form, then there might have been a great deal more to be said for them. At any rate, it is possible to go to the Federal courts on the basis of the American Constitution and attempt to have these things set right. There have been a number of very great liberal judges in the United States who have been able, on the basis of the Constitution, to ascertain fundamental human rights. At any rate, it is better to have it in the Constitution, I should have thought, than not to have it there.
    Mr. Hale: Would my hon. and learned Friend assure the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Mackie) that, in point of fact, the American Supreme Court in the last few years have given more declarations in interpreting the first amendment to the Constitution in favour of abolishing the colour bar than any other country in the world?
    The Temporary Chairman (Colonel Sir Leonard Ropner): I would suggest that the Committee is continuing its concentration rather too long on the wrong continent.
    Mr. Bing: With great respect, there is a parallel. It was 200 years ago that a Conservative Government lost to this country the American colonies because we denied them exactly the same rights that we are in the process of denying to the Africans today. That is why this debate is of such a serious nature. One Conservative Government having thrown away one part of the Commonwealth, at least there is a duty on the Members of this Committee to see that they do not throw away another part of it.
    This is an issue which cannot be confined to the African continent, because how we show our attitude towards civil liberties in Africa will be reflected in the attitude of India, Pakistan and other parts of the Commonwealth towards this country. It is no use on the one hand saying we regard India as an equal partner absolutely in the British Commonwealth of Nations if on the other hand we are saying that when an Indian citizen goes to the Rhodesias or to the new Federation he is then going to be a second or a third-class citizen.
    I do not think there is an hon. Member in this Committee on whatever side he may sit who does not detest and

    1943
    abominate the conduct of the South African Government in regard to the nine million Africans who live in that country. I say how much we detest and deplore what they are doing there today, but how are we going to compel them to change, because if, somehow or other, we do not compel South Africa to change its attitude towards the African population it will produce an explosion throughout Africa which will destroy the whole position of the white people there.
    How can we persuade them to change? We can only persuade them so to do in one way, by the force of our example. How can we set that example? We can set it by setting out in the Constitution of this new federal body those human rights which make it perfectly clear where this Parliament stands on these matters, and that we abominate and detest what is taking place in South Africa. But what has the Secretary of State done? His whole policy is one of appeasement. He merely switches from Munich to Johannesburg. Let me give the Committee one example of that appeasement.
    When we debated this matter last week, I mentioned the case of Mr. John Rex, and I asked why he was not permitted to teach in Sierra Leone. The answer I have discovered is a simple one, that he was debarred from Rhodesia, and under those circumstances it was said by the Secretary of State that this man should not be allowed to enter any other British Colony. Why was he deported from Rhodesia? He was deported under the provisions of the Rhodesian law that anyone against whom another Government complained can, in fact, be deported. And who was the Government that complained? It was the Government of South Africa. What did they complain about him? They accused Mr. John Rex of the "abominable crime" of being in favour of racial equality.
    5.15 p.m.
    What happens? The Secretary of State followed this up by appeasing the South Africans and saying that Mr. John Rex would not only lose his job in Rhodesia, but that he cannot have another job in the Commonwealth because he is in favour of the principle which the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs gets up and enunciates from the Dispatch
    1944
    Box in this Committee. There is an awful lot of talk about deeds rather than words, and I should have thought that this was one of the most obvious occasions where a wrong could be righted by the Colonial Office, who should be prepared to show that they are in favour of racial equality by allowing people penalised for expressing their beliefs to be employed somewhere in the Commonwealth.
    The Committee will ask why it is that there is, in fact, this denial of civil liberties, why there is this racial inequality. The reason for it is a very simple one. If one wants to exploit the African then one must prevent him from having any opportunity to answer back. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Alport) is not here because I happen to have in my hand the document to which he referred during our last debate and we could have solved the whole of the controversy by saying there is no need to discuss whether this is a forgery or not; it is a document which, in fact, proves itself in any court of law and it is drawn specially in that form. It shows that Mr. Michael Blundell, leader of the white settlers in Kenya, was in fact employing people for 12s. a month. If a man is employed for 12s. a month and a clause is added that his family will have to work as well, as this document, in fact, does, then there is a clamping down on any opportunity which he has of telling how he is being exploited. It is for that reason that those people who wish to exploit the African are insisting upon the maintenance of the colour bar.
    But it is rather more important that we should hold the Commonwealth together than that we should use this House as a mechanism for enabling various individuals to exploit African labour a little longer. I do not want to delay the Committee any longer than to read them one extract from a speech which was delivered a long time ago by a very great Parliamentarian, Burke, on the subject of the American colonies when he was dealing generally with how the British Empire—as I suppose it would have been described then—how the British Commonwealth was held together and the way in which it was dissolved.
    This is what he said in regard to the Colonies—and I suggest to the Committee

    1945
    that what he said is just as true today as when he said it:
    "My hold of the colonies is in the close affection which grows from common names, from kindred blood, from similar privileges and equal protection. These are ties, which, though light as air, are as strong as links of iron. Let the colonies always keep the idea of their civil rights associated with your government;—they will cling and grapple to you; and no force under heaven will be of power to tear them from their allegiance. But let it be once understood, that your government may be one thing, and their privileges another; that these two things may exist without any mutual relations; the cement is gone; the cohesion is loosened; and every thing hastens to decay and disillusion. … Slavery they can have anywhere. It is a weed that grows in every soil. They may have it from Spain,"—
    this is curiously topical—
    "they may have it from Prussia. But until you become lost to all feeling of your true interest and your natural dignity, freedom they can have from none but you. This is the commodity of price, of which you have the monopoly. This is the true act of navigation, which binds to you the commerce of the colonies, and through them secures to you the wealth of the world. Deny them this participation of freedom, and you break that sole bond, which originally made, and must still preserve, the unity of the empire."
    Every person in this country of ours gains his livelihood by the existence of a colonial Commonwealth. It is only because of the existence of the sterling area that industry in this country is possible. Those people who imperil it, as hon. Gentlemen opposite are doing at the moment, are doing far more than imposing an injustice on the Africans; they are threatening the livelihood of every person in Britain. That, too, was appreciated by Burke. He concluded by saying:
    "Magnanimity in politics is not seldom the truest wisdom; and a great Empire and little minds go ill together."
    I think all hon. Members here will regret that when I came to this passage the Colonial Secretary was not in his place:
    "If we are conscious of our situation, and glow with zeal to fill our places as becomes our station and ourselves, we ought to auspicate all our public proceedings on America with the old warning of the church, Sursum corda! We ought to elevate our minds to the greatness of that trust to which the order of Providence has called us. By adverting to the dignity of this high calling, our ancestors have turned a savage wilderness into a glorious empire; and have made the most extensive, and the only honourable conquests; not by destroying, but by promoting, the wealth, the number, the happiness of the human race.
    1946
    Let us get an American revenue as we have got an American empire. English privileges have made it all that it is; English privileges alone will make it all it can be."
    If hon. Gentlemen opposite insist on denying to the Africans the liberties which we enjoy in this country, they will without doubt, within the shortest possible space of time, have destroyed for ever the British African colonial Commonwealth in exactly the same way as their predecessors in office lost to us the American colonies.
    Mr. Hale: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) has referred in most moving terms to the American Constitution, which is one of the great historical documents that exists, and I was sorry to see the manifestation of Anglo-American hostility on the part of the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Mackie), whose observation, I hope, will not incur the ire of Senator McCarthy but which is one with which we ought to deal. The hon. Gentleman said, "Do not play down our part. Criticise America, if you like, but do not criticise us." We are not here to criticise other countries; we are here to look at the mote or beam in our own eye and see if we can correct it. That is our job.
    I detest the repression of liberty that takes place beyond the Iron Curtain but that is not my responsibility because I do not make laws for Iron Curtain countries. The whole House was extremely shocked and horrified today at the shooting of a man for an inadequate crime in East Berlin. Of course we are shocked, but the thing we must be shocked about is that people are being killed in Kenya without a trial, because that is our responsibility.
    Mr. Mackie: I try to be realistic and to state facts. The hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) was making great play with the American Constitution. I ask him and the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) if he thinks there has been a greater exhibition of the colour bar in America than in this country? If not, let him go down the New York subway.
    Mr. Hale: I am much obliged. We had some discussion on that while the hon. Gentleman was away. I would remind him that Eugene Debs, who was perhaps one of the greatest and noblest

    1947
    men America ever produced, in a famous speech he made immediately before being sentenced to 10 years' penal servitude for exercising the right to freedom of speech, said that only a Socialist could understand the American Constitution because only a Socialist would understand the fervour of the struggles of the Revolutionary fathers for liberty.
    Mr. Mackie: They have no real Socialism in America.
    Mr. Hale: They do, but they call it by another name. If the hon. Gentleman would care to go to the Tennessee Valley he will see one of the finest practical exhibitions of Socialism that can be seen in the world. It is quite true, however, that they do not like the word and we respect their dislike in this matter.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies made a fervent appeal to the Committee to trust Sir Godfrey Huggins and Mr. Welensky. He said it was most unfair for this Committee to drop little hints that those people are not sincere. But I have authority for that from Sir Godfrey Huggins himself. The right hon. Gentleman knows that His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury himself wrote to "The Times" last year, pointing out that Sir Godfrey Huggins had referred to the African Affairs Board as being rather like Gilbert and Sullivan without the music, and asking what he meant by it. Has the right hon. Gentleman ever asked Sir Godfrey Huggins what he meant by it? If he has not, ought he not to ask him?
    Mr. Hopkinson: Perhaps it would be useful if I read what Sir Godfrey Huggins said the other day about partnership. He said:
    "Partnership is based on the total rejection of any policy of racial domination and suppression and a sincere acceptance of the fact that black and white are indispensable to each other and that each must, by his conduct and actions, earn the confidence and good will of the other."
    Mr. Wilfred Paling: Why does he not apply that in Southern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Hale: Let me say what Sir Godfrey Huggins said in 1952 before he was warned that at this moment it would
    1948
    be tactless to keep on saying these things. He said:
    "Suppose that as more and more Africans get on the voters' roll, instead of playing party politics they play colour politics? All you will have to do is to alter your electoral law again. … No reservation in the constitution can ever stop people from passing laws to ensure their own survival. No British Parliament will stop you."
    That is what he said. Why should we not say that we do not trust him when he says things like that? He appears to be an honest man and he said that the African Affairs Board would be dismissed at the end of 12 months if it did not behave itself. The dishonesty is not on his part but on the part of people who ask us to trust him after that.
    I am surprised that no reference has been made in this debate to a leading article in the "Manchester Guardian" this morning. There has been issued today a report of great importance, the report of the Ad hoc Committee on Forced Labour appointed by the United Nations Association. It has something to say about the British Colonial Territories. This House ought to feel a deep sense of shame when, in this year of the 20th Century, an international committee should be condemning our policy in the Colonies in relation to forced labour and the possibilities of employing slave labour. In an article which makes it clear that it is still entitled to claim that it is the best paper in the world, the "Manchester Guardian" has drawn forceful attention to this matter.
    What is our policy in relation to this? It is not without significance that the two Colonies in respect of which it is said there is in existence legislation which could permit of forced labour on a very large scale are Kenya and Malaya. And if we read the report submitted on behalf of Her Majesty's Government to the commission with relation to Rhodesia, in which they frankly call attention to the condition of things there, I should have thought that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee would deplore the situation. For instance, the rates of wages of coalminers in 1951 varied from 74s. a month for surface workers to 89s. a month for underground workers. When we remember that these monthly payments are being made in many cases to people who come vast distances and have

    1949
    families living hundreds of miles away, it betrays a condition of things which is in need of some attention.
    5.30 p.m.
    The hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) was seeking to catch the eye of the Chair when this debate was going on a day or two ago. Today he tells me that he is engaged on business of great national importance in North Berkshire and is not able to be present. He wanted to put a point which I regard as of very great importance—the right of people to use their own language. It is a fundamental right. My hon. Friend called my attention to the fact that the Secretary of State, in a previous statement, referred to the people of East Africa being influenced by statements emanating from Bloomsbury. I hope he overlooked the fact that I live in Bloomsbury and am one of the few hon. Members who does live there. I am really what the "New Statesman and Nation" would call a lifelong bourgeois bootlander and only came to Bloomsbury quite recently.
    But the right hon. Gentleman must understand that if laws are in a foreign language, all the legal documents are in a foreign language and most of the national newspapers are in a foreign language, people of course will get that opinion. If this country were occupied by the French and all our documents were in French, of course we should take some views from France. It is the greatest mistake that in the colonial administration so few of our officials have ever had to learn the language of the people for whom they are supposed to care. If one can only talk to a very small minority one can never get the facts nor develop a first-class understanding.
    Through the ages the great battles in Britain have been won in the courts of law. I always mistrust my efforts at French but "C'est au Palais de Justice que I'histoire s'ecrit." We have fought the battle for freedom of speech over the centuries, we have fought the battle for freedom from economic restraint over the centuries, mostly in the courts. I am proud of the part which members of my profession have taken in those battles. We fought the battle of political free-
    1950
    dom and on every occasion there was someone making the same sort of speech as the right hon. Gentleman has made today. It was always too soon, it was always the sort of thing someone wanted to do, but it was not quite prudent or wise to do it. Every reform has had to face precisely this form of opposition.
    The right hon. Gentleman spoke today, and although it was not a very informative speech it was a very revealing speech. He said, amongst other things, addressing himself to my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) that my hon. Friend would not like to see discrimination of land tenure between white and black removed. Why on earth should there be discrimination of land tenure between white and black? Is the right hon. Gentlemon really saying that an African leaving Oxford University should not be allowed to farm under the same conditions as a white farmer? Does he really mean that?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I thought I made it pretty clear that a white farmer would not be allowed to take a farm in the Gold Coast, or the Sudan, or a very large area of Central Africa.
    Mr. Hale: It is quite true that each country has its immigration laws and each country legislates for its own people. But we are not talking about the rights of minorities, we are talking of the rights of majorities. This is the curiosity of the situation. I referred to the article in the "Manchester Guardian" and that article was certainly written as if one were talking of the rights of minorities—quite rightly so because they are a subject race, a subject people, but they are in fact the majority of the nation.
    I want to make this clear. I am in favour of the protection of the rights of minorities everywhere. The time will come when the white settlers in Kenya will wish to be protected as a minority, and this House must generously give them that protection to which they are entitled. I would advocate that protection with just the same sincerity and firmness as I advocate the cause of the emancipation of the majority there.
    The right hon. Gentleman went on to say—it was the most serious statement—that the Declaration of Human Rights is a mere pious enumeration of matters of principle. That will not do. To start

    1951
    with, the Declaration has been ratified by a number of countries and is open to ratification by this country. Secondly, it was adopted with most elaborate ceremony and ritual at the Palais de Chaillot in 1948. There was no question then of this not being regarded as a great milestone of human history and a point of departure on a new road to progress. To say now that it is a mere pious expression of intention is disastrous.
    Mr. Hopkinson: May I quote the Leader of the Opposition in his statement? He described it as "a common standard of achievement" which all should strive to attain and that is what we are seeking to do.
    Mr. Hale: Those are the precise words of the Declaration itself and I quoted them the other day. But what does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "striving"? Just at this moment we are asking him to accept a modest Amendment implementing some of the most fundamental principles of the Declaration. We have not gone very far with it. We have not said that he must take all in, but have asked him to implement something which he says is the policy of the Government, and to accept an Amendment which merely supports what he says he would desire to see done and hopes the Government will do. Where is the striving?
    May I remind the right hon. Gentleman of one other pregnant fact? My hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough introduced a Bill into this House 12 months or so ago. It was carefully drawn—I was going to say ably drawn because I drew it very largely myself. In that Bill an attempt was made to carry out some of the vital recommendations Clause by Clause. But what happened? It was talked out by hon. Members opposite, not one of whom has risen today to say a word about human rights because they are not really interested. There is no need to talk this out, because it was talked out day after day by hon. Members opposite, in particular the hon. Member for Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle). That is the depth of their sincerity and this is the "striving" they are doing for the standard of human rights.
    I agree entirely with the concluding words of my hon. and learned Friend the
    1952
    Member for Hornchurch. Unless we are prepared, with the forces of this Parliament, which is built up on cherished traditions of liberty, which is the palladium of liberty and is still a source of admiration and of a desire to emulate throughout the world—there are still many countries in Europe which look to Westminster and admire our great tradition, our methods of democracy and the standard of living we have achieved—to set on example in this matter and to say that the struggle that went on in Britain shall continue throughout the Colonial Empire, and that this standard of life must be achieved, we have failed. I think my hon. and learned Friend is right; we shall not only fail in our moral standards but will lose a great continent once more for the same reasons as we lost the North American Continent.
    No one under-estimates the difficulty about the Declaration of Human Rights. No one who has studied the matter can doubt that there are many rights we do not yet comprehend and cannot assert. Have we the right to proselytise? Is there a right to rebel? That is a subject which has been discussed by very able men who contributed to the Declaration. Some say we have a right to rebel—and we sometimes get a feeling that that might be true of our own country at any rate. One cannot achieve complete servitude.
    No conception of right is a static one; as the centuries pass, so our conceptions progress. Everyone today would agree that it was wrong and wicked to employ children of eight for 14 or 15 hours a day in the factories and to whip them, although this House defended it at the time. It may be that in 100 years' time people will believe that our present methods of employment contain an element of barbarity. It may be that by then we shall have progressed to a new standard. It is a dangerous thing to make a written enunciation of rights if we do not intend to implement them, because it means that we are placed in the position of reverting to unstated assumptions.
    I suggest—and this suggestion has already been made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)—that the Labour Government found a substantial answer to this in the way in which they handled the difficult

    1953
    problem of India. We said, "Here is a problem of great complexity, of great difficulty, of great gravity. We think it right that India should have her liberty. We will fix the date in advance—the date on which these things will be done." That having been done, most of the difficulties were resolved with the passage of time and the fixing of the date. The transfer of power passed very much more easily than anyone could have imagined.
    Mr. Robson Brown: And a million people died in the process.
    Mr. Hale: A million people died there of starvation every year under our rule. Let the hon. Member read the predictions of the Tory Press at the time—predictions of what was going to happen there—and then compare them with what did happen. I do not think he will then repeat that observation.
    We have to make a great comprehensive declaration of our intention in colonial affairs. We have to say what we are going to do and how we are going to do it. If we are prepared to do that, no one will doubt that there has to be an interval of time, no one will suggest that we can do it by waving a magic wand or by the simple passage of a short Bill. It is a complex question. Unless we solve it, we shall fail in our duty not only to the colonial peoples but to posterity.
    5.45 p.m.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: I shall not detain the Committee for more than a few minutes, but the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Mackie) made an intervention which seemed to me astonishingly short-sighted and insular. He said there was a great deal more racial discrimination in the United States than in Britain. For a member of a party which has always prided itself on being the party of an empire on which the sun never sets, that displayed a very limited point of view.
    Mr. Mackie: The hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) and the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) made great play with the written American Constitution and the benefits which it held out in connection with the colour problem. I challenged the hon. and learned Gentleman about the way in which that is carried out in the United
    1954
    States. I believe in facts, not in theories. If the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) disbelieves me, or if the hon. Member for Oldham, West doubts my word, let them take a journey in the New York subway and see how the colour problem works out there.
    Mr. Thomson: I recently took a trip in a New York subway for that very reason. I want to deal with what the hon. Member said, because it throws some light on the problem which the Committee face. The problem of racial equality is one of the major sources of international discord today, and the two countries in the West which are in the position of the greatest leadership in seeking the solution of the problem are the United States, on the one hand, and this country, on the other hand.
    Mr. Mackie: The hon. Member should not represent the United States as being in the vanguard. We have been in the vanguard.
    Mr. Thomson: The United States has the problem within its own boundaries whereas we have the problem in various parts of the world for which we in this Committee have just as personal a responsibility as members of the American Congress have for what happens within America. If I understood the Government's argument correctly, it was that the problems of racial equality cannot be solved by legislation; that they cannot be dealt with by writing things into the constitution. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) very properly mentioned the American experience in that respect. It is true, as I had ample opportunity to see, that racial discrimination is still the blackest stain on American democracy, but it is also true that great effort is being expended in the United States by millions of liberally-minded people to wipe out that stain. One of the greatest weapons in their hands is the legal weapon.
    I do not believe we can solve the problem of racial discrimination by law alone. The real way to do it is by the longer method of education, of teaching people to treat each other as equals. Nevertheless, the legal sanction behind the movement is extremely important, as has been proved in the experience of the United States. My hon. Friend the Mem-

    1955
    ber for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) pointed to the series of judgments of the American Supreme Court in recent years which have led to notable advances, particularly in the field of discrimination in American education.
    I suggest that American experience in these matters should lead to us to write into this constitution words which would place some sort of legal authority behind the pious beliefs which we always express about racial equality. It seems to me that Dr. Malan's real crime against humanity in the Union of South Africa is not merely the racial policies he is putting forward but the fact that he is erecting a legal superstructure to justify them. In the United States, the white supremacy people still exist but are on the defensive, on the retreat. They know that history is against them and they know that the law of America, written into the Constitution, is also against them.
    In the Union of South Africa, however, legal sanction has been given to racial policies, and in that sort of world situation we in this country have a responsibility to give a lead. One way in which we could do that is by putting into this enabling Bill a firm declaration of our belief in racial equality. The Human Rights Commission mentioned in the Amendment should be mentioned in the Bill. It would not only be a great help in promoting harmony in Central Africa but could do more than acting merely in a legal way.
    One of the points which impressed me in the United States was that in many parts of the country there were official and semi-official organisations working to get at the roots of racial discord. I was pleasantly surprised in the City of Chicago, where there is a great deal of very bad racial discrimination—the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Mackie) will know of the race riots in the suburb of Cicero—there was a department of the city corporation called, curiously enough, by the same title used in the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Fenner Brockway), "the Commission on Human Rights." It operated as a department of the city administration and tried to provide an intelligence service and to get at the roots of racial discord. It has some
    1956
    pretty useful achievements to its credit. If we had a similar sort of thing operating in Africa it would be very useful indeed.
    I do not see why we should not take the opportunity to put these things in the Bill. The Secretary of State for the Colonies was very frank with the Committee about the reasons for rejecting the proposed alterations to the Bill in this regard. He said he did not wish to act as a school-marm; that we ought to deal with these matters by the procedure of Order in Council rather than by leaving the guarding of them to the normal legislative operations of this House. I submit there is a little more to it than that.
    The writing of a Constitution for Central Africa is rather different from granting independence to India, or from writing a constitution for Nigeria or the Gold Coast where there is predominently an African population. In Central Africa we are writing a constitution which will be operated by an infinitestimal minority, one twenty-fifth of the population in fact. We in this House have a duty to the white citizens in these areas. It is also important to remember that we have a great responsibility to the vast majority of African citizens. I think the responsibility to them is greater, because they are not in the same position to look after their own interests.
    In that respect we, and it does not matter upon which side of the House we sit, have the African members of that part of the Commonwealth as our constituents. We speak for them here. According to the way that this constitution works, and is quite likely to work for several years, they will obtain more representation from these benches than in the Federal Legislature in Central Africa. Surely that is a reason for writing this into the Bill at this stage and leaving the guarding of this matter, because of the peculiar multiracial situation in Central Africa, directly under the control of the House of Commons in this country.
    I am frightened by the developments in many parts of Africa. I think a great legacy of distrust is being created there. In this Bill we have an opportunity to do all we can to try to dispel as much of that suspicion as we can, though I am

    1957
    not very hopeful about how far we can go now. It will help if we write into this Bill now a firm declaration of our belief in racial equality. I do not think that would bring about racial equality, or that it will be achieved by a wave of the magician's legal wand. With all respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West, I do not think the law courts can win the victories which he claimed for them. The battle can be fought finally, and won, in the law courts, but work has first to be done in
    the economic, social and educational fields.
    While we all grant that, I think the writing into the Bill of a firm declaration that this House believes in racial equality would go a long way to dispel the grave and dangerous suspicion existing today in that part of the world.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 187; Noes, 210.

    Division No. 199.]

    AYES

    [5.55 p.m.

    Albu, A. H.

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Paton, J.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Pearson, A.

    Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Peart, T. F.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Hannan, W.

    Popplewell, E.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Hargreaves, A.

    price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

    Hastings, S.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Barlley, P.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Reeves, J.

    Beattie, J.

    Holman, P.

    Rhodes, H.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Beswick, F.

    Houghton, Douglas

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarven)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A, (Ebbw Vale)

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Blackburn, F.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Short, E. W.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Boardman, H.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Bowen, E. R.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Brockway, A. F.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Keenan, W.

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Burke, W. A.

    Kenyan, C.

    Snow, J. W.

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Kinley, J.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Sparks, J. A.

    Champion, A. J.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Slewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Collick, P. H.

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Lewis, Arthur

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Cove, W. G.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Logan, D. G.

    Swingler, S. T.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    MacColl, J. E.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Daines, P.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    McLeavy, F.

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Davies Stephen (Merthyr)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Deer, G.

    Mason, Roy

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Thornton, E.

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Messer, Sir F.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Viant, S. P.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Monslow, W.

    Weitzman, D.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Moody, A. S.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Morley, R.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Mort, D. L.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Finch, H. J.

    Mulley, F. W.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Follick, M.

    Murray, J. D.

    Wigg, George

    Foot, M. M.

    Nally, W.

    Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    willey, F. T.

    Freeman John (Watford)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Orbach, M.

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Glanville, James

    Padley, W. E.

    Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Paget, R. T.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Grey, C. F.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Palling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Yates, V. F.

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Pannell, Charles

    Grimond, J.

    Pargiter, G. A

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Hale, Leslie

    Parker, J.

    Mr. Wilkins and Mr. Royle.

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Harvie-Wall, Sir George

    Peto, Brig, C. H. M.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Hay, John

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Arbuthnot, John

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Heath, Edward

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R (Blackburn, W.)

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Pitman, I. J.

    Astor, Hon J. J.

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr, J. M.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Banks, Col. C.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Profumo, J. D.

    Barber, Anthony

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Barlow, Sir John

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Radmayne, M.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Horobin, I. M.

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Horsburgh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Black, C. W.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Robinson, Roland (Balckpool, S.)

    Bossom, Sir A. C.

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Braine, B. R.

    Hutchison, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

    Russell, R. S.

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Savery, Prof. Sir Dougals

    Bromely-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Jennings, R.

    Scott, R. Donald

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Bullard, D. G.

    Kaberry, D.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Bullus, Wing-Commander E. E.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Speir, R. M.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

    Carr, Robert

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Stevens, G. P.

    Carry, Sir Robert

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Channon, H.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Low, A. R. W.

    Storey, S.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Strauss, Henry (Norwhich, S.)

    Cole, Norman

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Studholme, H. G.

    Colegate, W. A.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Summers, G. S.

    Cooper-key, E. M.

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    McAdden, S. J.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastboure)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Crouch, R. F.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchely)

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Crowder, Petre (Ruisilp—Northwood)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Donner, P. W.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Turton, R. H.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Vane, W. H. F.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Fell, A.

    Marples, A. E.

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Fisher, Nigel

    Maude, Angus

    Walker-Smith D. C.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Mellor, Sir John

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Foster, John

    Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

    Fraser, Sir Ian(Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Wellwood, W.

    Gammans, L. D.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Nicolson, Godfery (Farnham)

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croyden, E.)

    Godber, J. B.

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E)

    Williams, Paul (Sutherland, S.)

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Gower, H. R.

    Noble, G. R. H.

    Wills, G.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Wilson, Geoffery (Truro)

    Girdely, Sir Arnold

    Odey, G. W.

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Grimston, Hon, John (St. Albans)

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    York, C.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOTES:

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Sir Cedric Derwe and

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Partridge, E.

    Mr. Richard Thompson.

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

    Mr. Sorensen: I beg to move, in page 1, line 13, at the end, to insert:
    "in each of which there shall be adequate representation of both Europeans and Africans."
    I move this Amendment in order to abstract from the Minister some in-
    1960
    formation which we greatly desire to get. I should like to know whether the Minister intends that on these various bodies mentioned in the Bill there shall be African representation. At the moment there is no intimation or assurance whatever that any African shall be present and

    1961
    shall act on any of the bodies mentioned. The purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that there shall be adequate representation.
    I am fully aware that "adequate" is a very ambiguous word and is a relative term, too. It may mean, in the estimation of those responsible for appointing the membership, that one is adequate. It may, on the other hand, mean far more; it may mean over 50 per cent. Let us leave that matter on one side, because I am sure that experience will gradually help us to understand what should be adequate representation. I feel nevertheless that the failure of the authors of the Bill to indicate in any way that there shall be some guaranteed African representation is a most serious omission. I do not intend to say any more, because the whole purpose of the Amendment is to ascertain whether the Minister intends to take any action on the point which I have mentioned.
    Mr. F. M. Bennett: I am glad that the mover of this Amendment admitted that the word "adequate" is ambiguous. I shall go further and say that it is meaningless in this context. However, it is nice to find him admit that it is ambiguous. On one of the bodies mentioned in this Clause, the Legislature, we ensure in the scheme as such that one-sixth of the members shall be Africans. The authors of the scheme evidently regard that as adequate in the existing circumstances. In spite of all the eloquence on the benches opposite, the late Socialist Government, in appointing the Legislatures of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, thought that one-tenth African and one-twelfth African representation, respectively, were adequate. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will admit that we have advanced very considerably from the position which the late Socialist Government adopted when arranging the Legislatures in that part of the world.
    Mr. Sorensen: I take it that the hon. Gentleman feels that one-sixth is adequate representation. If that be so, I am prepared to interpret the term "adequate" in my Amendment in exactly the same way.
    Mr. Bennett: I was only pointing out that "adequate" is a matter of relative judgment. The main reason that I wish
    1962
    the Government to reject this Amendment is that I think that any further stress on racial boundaries and differences is to be regretted. I am one of those who, rightly or wrongly, believed from the inception of this scheme that its best future would lie not in stressing racial differences but in encouraging the people throughout these countries irrespective of colour, by education and every other form of social advance, that their promotion should not be decided by colour but by whether they are worth their job or not.
    Therefore, above all other considerations it would be a pity if we were to stress once more in this constitution racial differences which cannot help partnership, but which can only embitter relations still further than hon. Members opposite have succeeded in doing in their speeches.
    Mr. Hopkinson: I should like to deal with this Amendment briefly, in the way in which it was moved. I know that the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) was principally seeking information. As I see it, this group of federal bodies on which the hon. Gentleman would like to see adequate representation of Europeans and Africans—we agree that it is a difficult term to define precisely—divides itself into two parts.
    First, there is the Federal Legislature, on which there is already African representation which amounts to over a quarter: when we take into account the Europeans who are representing purely African views, it is over a quarter. Then, of course, there is the African Affairs Board itself, and that is purely representative of the Africans. Outside that there are certain other bodies—the Federal Supreme Court, the Apportionment Commission, the Interim Public Service Commission, and the Loan Council. Those are the four bodies to which, I take it, the hon. Gentleman referred.
    We feel that in this matter, it would be wrong, and contrary to the trend of modern thought, to attempt to introduce communal representation into these bodies. We believe it would be a retrograde step to do so. We regret the fact that it is not possible to have a common roll throughout, in the case of the Legislature, but we think that with these other bodies it would be quite

    1963
    wrong to try to introduce specific representation of African interests. In regard to the Supreme Court, the hon. Gentleman will agree that it would be a slur on the impartiality of Federal judges to suggest that there should be any kind of communal representation there, and the same thing applies to the Loan Council, the Interim Federal Public Service Commission and the Apportionment Commission.
    While there is absolutely nothing in the way of African appointments, and while we should like to see Africans appointed, we feel that it would be undesirable to specify that a certain number of Africans have to be appointed to these bodies. There is no specific provision for that, and we could not see our way to put one in, but I see no reason why Africans with the requisite qualifications should not be appointed to some of these bodies in due course.
    Mr. Sorensen: In view of the Minister's statement, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. James Griffiths: I beg to move, in page 2, line 18, at the end, to insert:
    (2) Any Order in Council under subsection (1) of this section shall provide that—

    (i) The Protectorate status of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland shall be preserved and in no circumstances shall Northern Rhodesia or Nyasaland be amalgamated with the Colony of Southern Rhodesia, unless a majority of all the inhabitants in Northern Rhodesia, Nyasaland and Southern Rhodesia desire and shall have voted in favour of such amalgamation; and

    (ii) the Governments of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland shall remain responsible to the exclusion of the Federal Government for all matters concerning land and land settlement in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland and for the promotion of the political advancement of the African population in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland in the local and territorial government of those territories.

    In the earlier discussion, the argument turned in part on whether it was necessary or desirable to write into this Bill some provisions which the Secretary of State said were going to be in the Order in Council, and I anticipate that, in regard to the Amendment which I am now moving, the same argument will be
    1964
    advanced. In regard to this proposed change of words, it will be argued that the provisions detailed in this Amendment are already embodied in the preamble to the scheme, which is set out in the White Paper (Cmd. 8754).
    The first point, which is a very important one, is this. When this enabling Bill is passed, if it is passed, by this Parliament, and, under its provisions, an Order in Council is placed before this House and subsequently approved by majorities in both Houses of Parliament, presumably, the Order in Council will, in the main, follow the lines of the draft scheme which we now have before us, and these safeguards, about which this Amendment is concerned, will be in the preamble. The question which I wish to address to either the Secretary of State or the Minister is whether the preamble is an integral part of the Constitution.
    6.15 p.m.
    Let me now say why we are moving this Amendment. In the first conference held at Victoria Falls to deal with this problem of Federation, which I was privileged to attend, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker), we found that there were four anxieties and fears which were uppermost in the minds of the Africans, and particularly in the two Northern Territories of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, and the fact is that these fears persist. They are still there. Everybody at the conference—representatives of Her Majesty's Government, of the Governments and peoples of Northern Rhodesia, Nyasaland and Southern Rhodesia, including African representatives in the Northern Territories, all agreed that there were four major fears which Africans had about any proposals for closer association, including the original scheme. These fears still persist, and they are still one of the major problems confronting Her Majesty's Government and those concerned in Central Africa in initiating this scheme.
    The four fears were these. First, that Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland would lose their Protectorate status, to which they attach enormous importance. They placed their countries under our protection, and they want them to remain under our protection. They want that Protectorate status to be pre-

    1965
    served, but they were afraid that, if federation came into being, that Protectorate status would be lost.
    The second fear was linked up with the first. It was the fear that the three Territories would be amalgamated, and, if amalgamated, by that very act, their Protectorate status would be destroyed, so that these first two fears were linked together. I would interject here that, although, in the scheme, the hope has been expressed that, once the new State is established, it will progress and march forward until it attains Dominion status, it cannot attain Dominion status without destruction of the Protectorate status, and, therefore, it is very important that when the Minister replies he should make clear that references in this scheme to the hope that this new Federal State in Africa will reach Dominion status within the meaning of the Statute of Westminster, 1931, would mean amalgamation. I therefore urge upon the Secretary of State that the very fact that there is a reference to Dominion status, however vague, as something to which the Territories should aspire, at once gives rise to these fears that the Protectorate status will go.
    The third fear was the fear that they would lose their land and lose the protection of the existing ordinances in the two Northern Territories, by which their land rights are preserved. Finally, there was the fear that their political advancement in these two Northern Territories would be retarded. That advancement has not been very rapid, and I would remind the Committee that it is only in quite recent years that there has been African representation in these Territories.
    Those were the fears which I heard expressed in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland when I had the privilege of visiting Africa two years ago. They were expressed at all the meetings which I attended, at the Victoria Falls Conference, and they are still being expressed. Because we who attended the conference felt that these fears were so deep and so widespread, we decided that in the communiqué issued at the end of the Conference we should include some commitments for the future. With the indulgence of the Committee, I will read them out because I think they are important.
    1966
    Paragraph 11 of Command Paper 8411 says:
    "The conference agreed that in any further consideration of proposals for federation:—
    (I) The Protectorate status of the two northern territories would be accepted and preserved. This therefore excludes any consideration now or in the future of amalgamation of the three territories unless a majority of the inhabitants of all three territories desire it."
    And "inhabitants" mean inhabitants without any qualification of colour, race or creed.
    "(II) Land and land-settlement questions in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland must remain, as at present (subject to the ultimate authority of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom), the responsibility of the territorial Government and Legislature in each territory and not of any federal authority. The land rights of the African people in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland must remain secured in accordance with the existing Orders in Council on the subject.
    (III) The political advancement of the peoples of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, both in local and territorial government, must remain as at present (subject to the ultimate authority of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom), the responsibility of the Government and Legislature of each territory, and not of any federal authority."
    Our Amendment is calculated to write those assurances into the Bill. On an earlier Amendment, as I have indicated before, which raised this very same point, it was said that there was no need to do this; that it was already in the scheme, and that it would be in the Order in Council. I expect that, likewise, it will now be said that what we propose is, in substance, already in the scheme before us.
    Therefore, what we have to address ourselves to is whether it is desirable to write these assurances into the Bill. This applies with equal force to the debate just concluded, to some other Amendments which we have already moved and which the Committee have rejected, and to some of the further Amendments which we shall move later. I am sure that the reply we shall receive is that this Amendment, if written into the Bill, would not, in substance, alter the scheme in any way. But if that is so, what objection can there be to its insertion in the Bill?
    I will give the reason why I think it is important that it should be in the Bill.

    1967
    If it does not alter the scheme, then neither the Government nor any hon. Member can have any objection to it. Why should there be objection in Central Africa? Quite bluntly and simply, the reason for putting this into the Bill and eventually into the Act is that this is the one chance which this Committee and the House have of reassuring the Africans who are afraid that these things will be lost.
    Those of us who met the Africans and discussed these matters with them know perfectly well how much importance they attach to Protectorate status, to the written word and to the contract, if I may put it that way. Here is a chance to put it into this contract. I ask the Minister and the Secretary of State not to say in reply, "It is all right; it is in the scheme, and it will be in the Order in Council."
    The important thing is not whether we think it is all right, but the fact that the Africans still do not think it is all right. They are still afraid and anxious. They still want to preserve their Protectorate status. They still want to preserve their land rights. They still want to preserve their rights to political advancement in the two northern Territories.
    Time is running out and the scheme will come into operation in the not too distant future. This is one of the biggest things we could do to allay the fears of the Africans. It is in the scheme, and no one has any objection to it. Both Sir Godfrey Huggins and Mr. Roy Welensky agreed to it at the Conference, and the right hon. Gentleman himself, in the first statement he made on this scheme, said that Her Majesty's Government attached the greatest importance to these assurances. If we are all at one in the matter, why cannot these assurances be put into the Bill?
    The Government may say, as they have said before, that they feel bound to stick to the scheme as it is and cannot accept any Amendment to it. But, in these days, Salisbury and Lusaka are at the other end of the telephone. Is there any reason why the Secretary of State should not speak to them on the telephone and ask them, in view of the situation in Central Africa, what their wishes are? We must do all we can in the time that remains to us to reassure African opinion. We
    1968
    should be doing that if we were to write these things into the Bill, because the fact is that the Africans trust this Parliament more than they trust those who are in authority in Central Africa. It is irrelevant to argue why that is so, but they trust Her Majesty's Government and this country more than anyone else.
    If we put this into an Act of Parliament it will be a charter. The Africans pride themselves on their treaties with Queen Victoria. If we put this into the Bill it will become a treaty between the Africans and this nation. I earnestly hope that the Government will not turn this down for the same reasons that they have turned down other proposals. This is something which they ought to accept, and which, I believe, the Governments in Central Africa ought to be glad to accept, because it provides us with what is perhaps a last opportunity of giving furher reassurance to the Africans on these problems.
    6.30 p.m.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman had this Amendment on the Paper. I am very sorry, for reasons which I have already given and which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to reiterate, that I cannot accept it. We are pursuing a policy by which the Constitution is enshrined in the Order in Council. If words mean anything, the Africans will get their reassurances from the Order in Council just as much as they would by taking a small piece out of the whole scheme—a very important piece, but nevertheless small in relation to the whole—and putting it into the enabling Bill.
    I do not propose to recapitulate the arguments which I used on the previous Amendment, but I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising this matter because it will give me the opportunity to give him and the Africans assurances upon those four matters which he described as "the four fears," and which still, he says, assail their minds. First, let me say that the Order in Council, and the provisions of the federal scheme, will secure that the Northern Territories will still be Protectorates. Their constitutional status is unaffected when the Order in Council is promulgated.
    There is a very important point about amalgamation, relating to the second

    1969
    fear which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. I take it that we mean by "amalgamation" the creation of a unitary State. The right hon. Gentleman made the point that if we hoped for Dominion status, that would mean the abandonment of Protectorate status and the creation of a unitary State. I think that is correct but it amounts not to an alteration in the Federal Constitution but to its destruction.
    We are definitely pledged to have nothing to do with amalgamation, except under provisos to which I shall refer. No alteration in the Constitution, far less the destructive alteration which would be involved by the creation of a unitary State, can take place without the consent of the Government of the United Kingdom. The right hon. Gentleman is concerned that any Government of the United Kingdom could ever contemplate such a thing. I think he is right. The only circumstances in which they could do so are those referred to in the Preamble, which, though an integral part, is not a legally enforceable part, of an Act of Parliament.
    None of these separate States can be incorporated in a unified State, whether by amalgamation or in order to get Dominion status, unless the Government of the day of the United Kingdom are satisfied in advance that the majority of the people so desire it. By "the majority of the people" I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we mean the inhabitants which he said are the inhabitants. I do not cavil at that at all. Any Government who seek to have a unitary State created have to be satisfied that the majority of the people so desire.
    The method of ascertaining this desire has often been referred to, and sometimes as a referendum. That would be only one of the ways. We do not want to commit ourselves whether it would be by referrendum or otherwise. It might be done with regard to the common roll. The Government would have to be satisfied that it was drawn on a property qualification sufficiently wide to make them able to say that a majority of the people desired it. Nothing short of that will enable any Government to approve of a scheme of amalgamation or of a status which will end in Dominion status, without the agreement of the majority of the inhabitants. I give a categorical assurance about that.
    1970
    With regard to loss of land there is written into the scheme the principle of inviolability of African land. There is only one matter about which we felt much concern, and that was the acquisition of land for public purposes. Something has to be put into the scheme on that score in order to prevent, for example, Africans being deprived of power lines because it is impossible to acquire land for public purposes. No land can be acquired for public purposes for the settlement of Europeans. With that exception, which is not a major one, the whole land of the African remains inviolate to the extent that it is now.
    Finally, the right hon. Gentleman referred to political advance, in the Northern Territory in particular. Under the scheme, that still remains in the hands of the territorial Government and is unaffected by the Order in Council.
    I think that those were all the matters to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. I hope he will take it from me that if the African is to be assured by words—and I do not think he ever will be quite assured by any words—he surely ought to be convinced by having all these matters of the "four fears" enshrined in safeguarding words in the Order in Council. I do not think I can go so far as to say that Africans can be assured by any words, but they will get all the words that we can give them, and as time goes on they will realise that these are solid things.
    I have often said that a man in the village or the field will be unaware at first that any federation has taken place, since he will be tilling the same field under the same district officer with the same impartiality of justice. As time goes on, he will be able to realise the economic advantages which federation brings to him. I repeat that I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has put down this Amendment because it has given me the opportunity of giving categorical assurances on the four points which he raised, which are all major points.
    Mrs. Eirene White: I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the Order in Council is to embody the proposals in Command Paper 8754. The right hon. Gentleman has given us an assurance that the situation suggested in the Preamble, in the White Paper and the rest of the documents will

    1971
    be found in the Order in Council. In other words, the provisions in the Preamble and the White Paper will be so embodied in the Order in Council that there is no legal distinction between the force of these provisions and the force of all the other provisions in this White Paper.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The points on which I have been trying to reassure the Committee are to be embodied in the actual articles of the Order in Council. The Preamble has no legal force, as the hon. Lady knows. It is a statement of intention which is very valuable for the reasons which I have mentioned and because it gives guidance to people on how to interpret the law. It is not a matter of what is in the Preamble, but what is embodied in the clauses of the Order in Council.
    Mr. Hale: I rise only to make one or two points clear. I understand that the Chair intends that a proposed new Clause in the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) relating to power to secede is to be discussed with this Amendment. I speak for myself in saying that I was greatly impressed by the assurances which the right hon. Gentleman has given. I accept that this proposed new Clause will be purely exploratory and I would very seriously advocate that it is not necessarily a good thing to find out just what the powers of secession are. I do not think that it is a very good thing that each nation in a federation should be able to threaten the others with the consequences of one breaking away at any moment.
    The right hon. Gentleman has given substantial assurances. I do not want to be ungenerous about the matter but the alacrity with which he promises that there will be some form of electoral method available for the inhabitants to record their views seems to indicate that some of our own criticisms were substantial and that the machinery might be put into operation now. Yesterday there was laid upon the Table an Order called the Northern Rhodesia (Legislative Council—Extension of Duration) Order in Council which is not yet printed but is available in the Library. It was not the only thing that was laid, because the Votes and Proceedings recorded surprisingly that a giraffe from Avonmouth was
    1972
    ordered to lie on the Table too. When I came to the Chamber I looked with some curiosity to see how this proposal in the Votes and Proceedings had been carried out.
    The Order in Council relating to Northern Rhodesia provides that the present term of five years of the Northern Rhodesia Parliament is to be extended to a period of five years and eight months. I understand that it will be said that this is desirable because all the controversy of a general election is not wanted at the moment. But I would remind the Government that there are two points of view about that. A general election at the moment might very well be desirable, to enable the people of Northern Rhodesia to record their vote, now that this matter has been explained to them.
    Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us the purpose of the Order and will say whether it was part of an agreement. What methods are to be used in Northern Rhodesia to express the views of the inhabitants, other than by the expression of the views of a dying Parliament, which if it were not for this Order would have passed away by the time with which we are concerned here?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I do not know whether I am able to give the hon. Member the assurances which he requires. I can begin by saying that it is no part of the arrangements which were discussed at the Conference. It is no bargain which has been made on this subject. I think that the object of the Order is not to delay the federal elections, which we hope will take place within six months or thereabouts, but to avoid having two general elections going on at the same time. I do not know whether the hon. Member thinks that that is a sufficient assurance, but that is my recollection. It is certainly no part of the arrangements made at the Conference. It is simply a piece of administrative convenience.
    Mr. Paget: I should like clarification from the Minister on the point whether the right of secession with regard to Protectorates exists or not. I should have thought that the inherent right of secession must exist here, because in one sense we have the curious situation that Her Majesty's Government, in their capacity as the protector of the Protectorates, are the subordinate Legislature

    1973
    to the Federation whilst, on the other hand, they are above the Federation which is part of their jurisdiction. In those circumstances I should have thought that there was an inherent right of secession in those areas for which we are the direct Government.
    Mrs. White: May I put another point relating to that same subject? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that at some period in the future the majority of people in Nyasaland wish to be amalgamated or federated with Tanganyika. I am putting that forward as a hypothetical case and presuming also that Tanganyika itself was willing to enter into such a constitutional relationship with Nyasaland. Under the legislation which we are now discussing, would it be possible, in those circumstances, for Nyasaland to say that it would rather not be in the Central African Federation and would prefer to be amalgamated with Tanganyika?
    6.45 p.m.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I think that the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) and that made by the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) came to the same thing—the right of secession. Under the hon. Lady's proposition, if Nyasaland wanted to federate with Tanganyika it would first have to take the step of seceding from the Federation which we are now discussing. It all comes back to whether there is a right of secession under the present scheme. My advice is that there is not. There is no federation of which I, as a layman, and my advisers with expert knowledge can think, in which there is a right to secession as such. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Soviet Union."]
    Mr. Hale: Texas.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am speaking of countries within the British Commonwealth. I cannot go into anything more exotic. We have not proposed that in the scheme. I think that to introduce into this marriage which we are about to solemnise opportunities for the parties to seek divorce before they are joined together, and to emphasise those opportunities, would be very impolitic. I think that the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East will agree with me on that.
    1974
    If the majority of these Territories wished to have Dominion status and secured it, and came within the Statute of Westminster, then the matter of secession would take a different shape. There is no right of secession under the scheme. Indeed if there were I think that it would be thoroughly retrograde because, for example, the Federation would be unable to raise money if it could be broken up by the one-sided action of any of the three States which composed it.
    Mr. Paget: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman has not entirely followed my point. It is quite clear that not one party as such can secede from the Federation, but two of those parties are us. We are the Government of Northern Rhodesia and we are the Government of Nyasaland. We make the Federation. If it attained Dominion status then it could dissolve itself but we could not dissolve it. Until it reaches Dominion status I should have thought that we retained the sovereign power and that we could dissolve this Federation. In that sense, and in that sense only, I apprehend that the right of secession remains.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I do not know if that is the right of secession. I am not a lawyer, but as one who remembers very little of his law I think that it is correct to say that in theory the House of Commons could dissolve the Federation. But when we have subscribed to a scheme in which the powers of the Federal Government are laid down, such an action would be highly improper. So though in theory the right exists, it is impracticable in this case.
    Mr. Paget: Surely it is not theory. If there are federal laws of which we heartily disapproved they would have to be enforced in our Territories by police who are responsible to us. There are circumstances in which we might find that this federation scheme was a failure and had clearly demonstrated itself as not being in conformity with the interests of those whom we wanted to protect. If that happened then either this scheme would be a breach of our obligations as a protecting Power or we have to take action in the interests of those protected. The right of this Parliament to dissolve the union must be more than theoretical.
    Mr. Hale: A genuinely important point arises out of this question. When we get to the stage of consideration of constitutional amendments after, I think, the lapse of a nine years' period, and when the discussions have taken place and a substantial measure of agreement has been reached between representatives of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, one has frankly to face the fact that Southern Rhodesia is in a position to frustrate any constitutional amendment. It has to be carried by a two-thirds majority, and there cannot be a two-thirds majority in the Federal Parliament unless the Southern Rhodesian Members vote with the majority, so one might easily find oneself with a situation in which the Southern Rhodesian Members said, "No, we will not have this electoral change which is recommended by the other two Territories; we will not have this constitutional re-form which is recommended by the others." In that case the question asked by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) becomes an extremely important one, on which the Committee is entitled to have an unequivocal answer. In those circumstances it is surely within the powers of the House to dissolve the Federation.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I do not wish to hide behind the word "theoretical." I usually attach much more importance to theory than to practice. I was arguing upon the point of secession. No doubt the point of secession is there, in the background, but I think it would be impractical, impolitic and dishonest to apply it at the moment. What may happen in nine years' time still does not alter the theory.
    Mr. Griffiths: The intention of our Amendment is that the Protectorate status shall be preserved, and in the Victoria Falls communiquéthere are the words:
    "… remain a Protectorate under the ultimate authority of Her Majesty's Goverment."
    The ultimate authority in the case of these two Northern Territories still rests with Her Majesty's Government, and that is the authority for all the powers we are discussing.
    Mr. S. S. Awbery: Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland can appeal to the House if they are dissatisfied after federation takes place, and the
    1976
    House can take action and dissolve the Federation.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I do not think it would be proper for me to give those assurances. It is one thing to say where a theoretical right resides, but there is also the question of honouring a constitution.
    Sir F. Soskice: The Secretary of State made a careful reply to my right hon. Friend, formulating, in terms to which we listened with attention, the assurances he thought it proper to give, and we are certainly grateful to him for the reply he gave to the apprehensions we voiced. At the same time, notwithstanding what he said in answer to a similar appeal which we made on a previous Amendment, we still feel that he has not quite met the purpose of the Amendment, in refusing to write this into the Bill.
    On the last Amendment but one, when we asked him to write it into the Bill, he gave a careful reply, saying that he thought it was impossible to do so. As I understood it, the burden of his reply was that it would have interfered with the arrangements for amending the Constitution which are at present contained in Paragraph 144 onwards of the federal scheme as embodied in the White Paper.
    In speaking on this Amendment I want to say what I should have said in reply to the answer he gave on the last Amendment but one. If the words we seek to have written into the Bill are included, the effect will be that to the extent that those words operate no change can be made either in the Order in Council or the federal scheme which the Order in Council would embody, unless the ordinary processes of our Parliamentary debate are gone through, with the result that a new amending enactment is passed by the House. We think that is a desirable situation.
    If these words were written into this enabling Bill the result would be that the Constitution could still be amended; the machinery envisaged by Paragraphs 144 onwards could still operate, except to amend the Constitution in any way to conflict with the words we want written into the Bill. Despite what the Secretary of State has said, it seems to us that that is a perfectly logical and desirable situation. I hope the Secretary of State will consider what I have said because it does not seem to conflict in any real sense

    1977
    with the situation as he thought it should exist.
    In asking that certain provisions should be written into the enabling Bill we think that if the Constitution is brought into being by the Order in Council the existing provisions in the Constitution as envisaged in Paragraphs 144 onwards will still be able to operate for the purpose of amending the Constitution in accordance with their terms, subject to this, that they will not be able to amend the Constitution in a way which conflicts with the words written into the Bill in response to the appeal we are making to the Secretary of State.
    I suggest to the Secretary of State, and to his hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, that that is the real reply to the case which he has put forward. Despite what he has said I do not see any objection to writing certain safeguards into the Bill. He has made a careful statement of his intentions and has given assurances for which, to the extent that they go, we are grateful, but despite what he said in dealing with this Amendment and the last but one before it, I am not convinced that he is taking the right attitude in refusing to write into the Bill what we seek to have written into it. He was wrong before and he is wrong again and, in a sense, he is more wrong now than he was before, for the reason given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths).
    As my right hon. Friend said, if this were written into the Bill the Africans would have something which they could look upon as a charter and as something which, in their eyes, supplanted the treaties with Queen Victoria, upon which they set so much store. If these words were written into the Bill they would think that something tangible was at hand on which they could place some reliance. That was my right hon. Friend's case.
    For those reasons it seems to me, and to many of my hon. Friends, that it is even more important that the words which are contained in this new Clause should be written into the Bill than the words contained in the previous Amendment to which I have referred. I certainly advise my hon. Friends to register the view which I feel confident they hold in the matter, by taking it to a Division. We take full account of the assurances given by the Secretary of State, but he should have gone further and acceded to the appeal we made to put these words into the Bill. I am not content with the answer he has given and I advise my hon. Friends to press this matter to a Division.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 176; Noes, 195.

    Division No. 200.]

    AYES

    [7.0 p.m.

    Adams, Richard

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Albu, A. H.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Hannan, W.

    Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Hargreaves, A.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Davies, Harold (Look)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Hastings, S.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Doer, G.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

    Delargy, H. J.

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Bartley, P.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Holman, P.

    Beattie, J.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Houghton, Douglas

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Hudson, James (Eating, N.)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Blackburn, F.

    Fernyhough, E.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Finch, H. J.

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Boardman, H.

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Bowen, E. R.

    Follick, M.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Bowles, F. G.

    Foot, M. M.

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Keenan, W.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Kenyon, C.

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Gibson, C. W.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Glanville, James

    Kinley, J.

    Burke, W. A.

    Grey, C. F.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Champion, A. J.

    Grimond, J.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Collick, P. H.

    Hale, Leslie

    Logan, D. G.

    Cove, W. G.

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    MacColl, J. E.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Popplewell, E.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    McLeavy, F.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Reeves, J.

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Mason, Roy

    Rhodes, H.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Richards, R.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Thornton, E.

    Monslow, W.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Turney-Samuels, M.

    Moody, A. S.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Morley, R.

    Royle, C.

    Viant, S. P.

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Weitzman, D.

    Mort, D. L.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Short, E. W.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Murray, J. D.

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Nally, W.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Orbach, M.

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Willey, F. T.

    Padley, W. E.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Paget, R. T.

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Snow, J. W.

    Williams, Donald (Wigan)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Williams, W. R. (Droylesden)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Pannell, Charles

    Sparks, J. A.

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Yates, V. F.

    Parker, J.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Paton, J.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Pearson, A.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E

    Mr. James Johnson and Mr. Holmes.

    Peart, T. F

    Swingler, S. T.

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Fell, A.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Fisher, Nigel

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Arbuthnot, John

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Foster, John

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Astor, Hon. J. J.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Moreoambe & Lonsdale)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Gammans, L. D.

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Banks, Col. C.

    Godber, J. B.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Gower H. R.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Marples, A. E.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Black, C. W.

    Harden J. R. E.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Mellor, Sir John

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Braine, B. R.

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hay, John

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Heath, Edward

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

    Bullard, D. G.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Hirst, Geoffery

    Odey, G. W.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Carr, Robert

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Channon, H.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Horobin, I. M.

    Partridge, E.

    Clarke Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Honsburg, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

    Cole, Norman

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Colegate, W. A.

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Hulbert, Wing. Cdr. N. J.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Crouch, R. F.

    Jennings, R.

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Profumo, J. D.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Kaberry, D.

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Deedes, W. F.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D

    Lambert, Hon. G

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Drewe, Sir C.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    1980

    1981

    Russell, R. S.

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Scott, R. Donald

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Webbs, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Wellwood, W.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Speir, R. M.

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Williams, Paul (Sutherland, S.)

    Spans, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Stevens, G. P.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Wills, G.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Turton, R. H.

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Storey, S.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    York, C.

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Studholme, H. G.

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Summers, G. S.

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    sir Herbert Butcher and

    Mr. Redmayne.

    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: I beg to move in page 2, line 18, at the end, to insert:
    (2) Any Order in Council under subsection (1) of this section shall provide that there shall be included among the powers of the African Affairs Board mentioned in sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph (a) of the said subsection the power to present a request to the Speaker of the Federal Legislature praying that any bill or other proposed enactment introduced before the Federal Legislature which in the opinion of the Board is detrimental to the interests of the African population may be reserved for the signification of Her Majesty's pleasure with regard thereto, and the Speaker shall take all necessary steps to give effect to any such request, and no proceedings shall be taken on or with regard to any such bill or other proposed enactment until Her Majesty's pleasure has been signified with regard thereto.
    This Amendment deals with the powers of the African Affairs Board to have Measures reserved for Her Majesty's Assent instead of the assent of the Governor-General. It involves a very short point arising out of the difference between hon. Members opposite and ourselves. The scheme proposes that in order to reserve a Measure for Her Majesty's Assent it must be a differentiating Measure. We propose that it should be sufficient if it is a Measure detrimental to African interests. The issue, therefore, turns on the difference between differentiating as applied in the scheme—and I will come to that later—and detrimental to African interests.
    What we propose is precisely in line with the Baxter Report. We are using the same phrase as is used in the recommendation made in that Report. We are dealing here with a question of substance. I am not concerned with the exact words of this Amendment or with questions of form or anything of that kind. We are dealing with a question of substance, and right through the difference between the Government and ourselves on this there are two threads running. The first is the question of the Government's intention,
    1982
    and the second is the question of the construction to be put upon the words which they use in the scheme when they define a differentiating Measure.
    These two threads of Governmental intention and of the construction of the definition run the whole way through the remarks which I have to make upon this subject. I am sure that the Undersecretary of State for Commonwealth Relations will make clear, first, what the Government's intention is and, second, as a separate subject from that, what construction the Government put upon the phrases which they use in their definition in the scheme.
    I shall deal first with the difference between "differentiating" and "detrimental," the difference between the Government proposals in the scheme and our suggestion in the Amendment. I shall later deal with what appears to be the practical effect of the difference. I turn first to the Government definition in Paragraph 59 of the scheme. This is a complicated matter and I wish to develop my argument stage by stage. Paragraph 59 says:
    "In this paragraph and in the subsequent provisions of this Chapter the expression 'differentiating measure' means a Bill or instrument by which Africans are subjected or made liable to any conditions, restrictions or disabilities disadvantageous to them to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable, or a Bill or instrument which will in its practical application have such an effect."
    The words which I wish at the moment to emphasise are:
    "… disadvantageous to them to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable, …"
    In other words, if I understand the definition aright, if there is a Measure which is disadvantageous to Africans and to African interests but Europeans are subjected to that disadvantage, then it is outside the definition in the scheme.

    1983
    The Government have sought to defend their position in different ways at different times through different mouths. I want, first, to bring to the attention of the Under-Secretary what appears on the face of it to be a flat contradiction between the Government view as expressed by him and the Government view as expressed by the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs. My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) raised the matter on 24th July of last year. He referred to it very succinctly, in these words:
    "The word 'detrimental' has been deleted"—
    my right hon. Friend was complaining about the deletion from the Baxter Report—
    "… and the word 'differential' has been substituted. But it is possible to have legislation which would be detrimental to African interests without being differential. Therefore, I say that the change of wording from 'detrimental' to 'differential' is a narrowing of the powers of the Board in all three fields: executive, administrative and legislative."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th July, 1952; Vol. 504, c. 868.]
    I now turn to the reply given by the Under-Secretary. He said:
    "I must now pass on from that point to the point which the right hon. Gentleman made about the use of the words 'differentiating' and 'detrimental.' For the benefit of those hon. Members who were not present when the right hon. Gentleman made his speech, may I say that his argument was that, in the new scheme, the word 'detrimental' had been omitted, and the word 'differentiating' put in. I think that, while omitting the word in the new scheme, we have defined 'differentiating,' and the right hon. Gentleman will find that a differentiating measure is one which is disadvantageous, and there is no difference between detrimental and disadvantageous."
    That is the pith of the hon. and learned Gentleman's reply.
    He continues:
    "In other words, in the new scheme, the definition of 'differentiating' involves the use of the word 'disadvantageous,' which is the same as detrimental, so that it comes to exactly the same thing, or near enough not to make his point a valid one."
    Then the hon. and learned Gentleman quotes the definition which I have already read to the Committee.
    He then continues:
    "I appeal to the Committee …"
    —he makes great play of this—
    "… whether there is anything in what the right hon. Gentleman says about the terrible omis-
    1984
    sion of this word, which makes him say that he would tell the Africans, 'You must not accept it, because the word "detrimental" has been omitted,' when, in fact, the definition of 'differentiating' is that it is disadvantageous."
    7.15 p.m.
    I pause there to bring to the notice of the hon. and learned Gentleman that the definition is not just "disadvantageous" but
    "… disadvantageous to them to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable …"
    That is a fundamental difference, and it is a distinction over which the hon. and learned Gentleman has glided in that debate and in the later debate which I shall bring to his attention. I now continue where I left off.
    The hon. and learned Gentleman said:
    "He says he would tell the Africans not to accept it, because of the horrible word 'disadvantageous,' instead of 'detrimental.' I really cannot think that that is a sound point."
    There are then two interventions by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly to which the hon. and learned Gentleman replied. I do not think I am being unfair in omitting those interventions and his replies.
    He went on:
    "It never occurred to me that somebody would say, 'I will tell the Africans to reject the scheme because the word "detrimental" is different from "disadvantageous".' That is what it amounts to."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th July, 1953; Vol. 504, c. 880–1.]
    Again I would emphasise that the words
    "… to which Europeans are not subjected or made liable …"
    do not appear there at all. Let me tell the hon. and learned Gentleman at once that if the intention is that the words
    "… to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable …"
    should have no effect, so that they could be left out, that would go very far to meet our point in this case.
    I would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether in expressing the view which he put so forcibly in the passage which I have quoted he was expressing the view of the Government on the effect of paragraph 59, and whether he was then expressing the Government's intention of the effect that paragraph 59 should have? If so, it seems to me that the Government should come forward

    1985
    straight away and say that they are prepared to delete the words
    "… to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable. …"
    I now come to what seems to me to be the quite contradictory statement made by the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs in the debate on 24th March this year. The right hon. Gentleman said:
    "The changing of the word 'detrimental' to 'differentiating' was made quite deliberately with a view to making the position more clear. 'Detrimental' can mean anything. One could say that Income Tax is detrimental to an individual. But when one uses the word 'differentiating' one means something quite different, and when one goes on not only to say that it is a differentiating Measure but to explain that it means something which is disadvantageous to the Africans, and something to which the Eropeans are not subjected—or is an instrument which will in its practical application have such an effect—it seems to me that one has gone to the very limit to try to provide effective safeguards for Africans in that field."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th March, 1953; Vol. 513, c. 790.]
    It seems to me that the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs was very much nearer—I do not say that his interpretation was precisely identical—the substance of paragraph 59 than was his hon. and learned Friend. We have a Minister in the Colonial Office saying, in effect, that when one uses "differentiating" one means something quite different, and yet in the passage which I have quoted, the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations said that it comes to exactly the same thing. We wish to know in the first place which of those two apparently contradictory interpretations correctly expresses the intention of the Government.
    I want to look for a moment at the Southern Rhodesia Constitution and the effect of this difference between differentiating and detrimental. The Committee will forgive me for referring for just a minute or two to a point which I made on Second Reading. It arises here, and this is perhaps the first opportunity that we have had of considering this point in detail. I think I ought to refresh the memory of the Committee.
    The Southern Rhodesia Constitution, paragraph 28, says that there is reserved for Her Majesty's pleasure Measures
    "whereby natives may be subjected or made liable to any conditions or disability or restrictions to which persons of European descent are not also made subject or made liable."
    1986
    In some respects that is a very closely paralleled provision, but those words
    "whereby natives may be subjected to"
    are not what we have in paragraph 59 where it says "Whereby"—if I may put it in the same terms for clarity—"natives are subjected."
    Obviously to ascertain whether they may be subjected or not we have to look not merely on the face of the Measure but also at its practical application. If we look at its practical application we will then, and only then, find out whether or not natives may be subjected to the disabilities to which persons of European descent are not also made subject. In the federal scheme the words are
    "… instrument by which Africans are subjected or made liable."
    There, of course, we have in addition the insertion of the words "or a Bill"—and then it reads on—
    "… or instrument which will in its practical application have such an effect."
    In other words, there is the insertion of these latter words, because there is not the word "may" that there is in the Southern Rhodesia Constitution.
    The point I am making is that the definition in the scheme is no more favourable to Africans than that is in the Southern Rhodesia Constitution. In fact, it is our view that it is considerably less favourable, because the combination of the word "or" to the reference to "its practical effect" does not go as far as "may" in the Southern Rhodesia Constitution. That it enables us to consider the effect of this scheme by comparison with the Southern Rhodesia Constitution.
    What we find in the Southern Rhodesia Constitution—and I shall be corrected by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if I am wrong—is that the franchise qualification can be raised and it was raised. When it was raised that was not treated as a differentiating Measure. Here, for instance, under this scheme it is perfectly open to the Federal Legislature to raise the franchise qualification and impose a property qualification which would eliminate a large number of Africans from qualifying for the vote. That has, in fact, happened in Southern Rhodesia without it coming within the ambit of paragraph

    1987
    59 and being treated as a differentiating Measure.
    I should like to know—and I am coming back to other observations of the hon. and learned Gentleman on this—if that is correct and if that is what happened under the Southern Rhodesia Constitution. In South Africa we have had differentiating, detrimental measures including the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act and the Public Safety Act, Acts which we in this Committee abhor because they are used in order to suppress opposition to the Malan regime and the Malan programme. None of us would countenance that.
    Of course, those Measures are not, as I understand, within the definition of differentiating measures in paragraph 59, because they apply equally to Europeans and to Africans. Trade unionists in South Africa suffer under them, but they are not differentiating Measures although they are detrimental, and grossly detrimental, to African interests. So it would be quite impossible, as I understand paragraph 59, for those acts done in pursuance of such a policy to be brought within the ambit of the provision and to be reserved for Her Majesty's pleasure. I should like to know if that is correct and, if not, why not.
    I should like to pursue the example of the franchise because the hon. and learned Gentleman made some remarks about it. I should have thought it was clear, in accordance with the argument I have put before the Committee, that where the franchise is raised the property qualification is raised, and as it is the property qualification which Europeans and Africans must alike pass before they get the vote, it is quite clear that that is not a differentiating Measure. In Southern Rhodesia, as I understand it, it was not so. Despite this, the hon. and learned Gentleman—and I will quote him verbatim—has stated that the raising of the property qualification, which would be more prejudicial to Africans than Europeans, would be a differentiating Measure.
    I want to refer to the exact words he used, because in the course of this passage I shall be able to pin-point the difference between us on our interpretation of para-
    1988
    graph 59. This is the question that was put to the hon. and learned Gentleman:
    "What about the case of property qualification? That would apply to both Europeans and Africans in its application but, nevertheless, it would mean the exclusion of Africans and not of Europeans in precisely the same way as we have seen in Southern Rhodesia in recent years."
    The hon. and learned Gentleman made this reply:
    "It is quite clear that the qualifying words 'which will in its practical application have such an effect' do apply to the substance of such a Bill."
    May I pause here before going further and look back at the definition and see what the effect of it is? Paragraph 59 says:
    "… the expression 'differentiating measure' means a Bill or instrument by which Africans are subjected or made liable to any conditions, restrictions or disabilities disadvantageous to them to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable, or a Bill or instrument which will in its practical application have such an effect."
    That means such an effect as a
    "Bill or instrument by which Africans are subjected or made liable to any conditions, restrictions or disabilities disadvantageous to them to which Europeans are not also subjected."
    It refers to all the preceding passage and it is important, in construing this, to bear that in mind.
    7.30 p.m.
    The hon. Gentleman said:
    "It is quite clear that the qualifying words, which will in its practical application have such an effect …"
    apply to such a Bill. The property qualification affects both Europeans and Africans but it would have disabilities disadvantageous "to the Africans." I pause here to point out that the hon. and learned Gentleman did not refer to the following words "to which Europeans are not also subjected." He went on to say:
    "In other words, the provision means exactly what the right hon. and learned Gentleman sought in his example; if we have a property qualification of £x, it applies equally to Africans and Europeans,"—
    I agree with that—
    "but if there are conditions—namely, that most Africans do not have as much money as Europeans—which make it disadvantageous to Africans, then this proposal comes into effect."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th May, 1953; Vol. 515, c. 504–5.]

    1989
    Again I observe that when the hon. and learned Gentleman refers to "disadvantageous to Africans" he does not include the vital words:
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected …"
    May I draw his attention closely to this?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. John Foster): May I ask a question without upsetting the hon. and learned Member's train of thought? Supposing I was right on this point, there would be no quarrel with the intention of the Government there? The only thing which the hon. and learned Gentleman is maintaining is that the construction is wrong?
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Yes, I think that is so, but I shall not commit myself before hearing the reply of the hon. and learned Gentleman as to the intention of the Government.
    Mr. Foster: And if I say the same?
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: As I said earlier, if the hon. and learned Gentleman says the same now as is said in the OFFICIAL REPORT, it will go far towards meeting our point, though not completely.
    Now let me deal with the construction side. The hon. and learned Gentleman said:
    "… if there are conditions—namely, that most Africans do not have as much money as Europeans …"
    But that is not the test which is laid down in paragraph 59. The test there is not whether most Africans or more Africans than Europeans are to suffer a disadvantage—whether a greater proportion of Africans or Europeans are to suffer a disadvantage. The test in paragraph 59 is:
    "disadvantageous to them to which Europeans are not also subjected …"
    But even if Europeans are also subjected—whether on the face of the Measure or in its practical effect, I do not mind which—to the disadvantage, then on this definition the Measure is outside the relief which is given under paragraph 59.
    In other words, it is not a test of comparison of more or of most, of a greater proportion of Africans suffering under the Measure than Europeans. Still less
    1990
    is the test whether the Measure in its practical operation will be detrimental to Africans in the way in which the Public Safety Act and the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act are detrimental to the Africans. The only test—and this is what we complain of—provided in paragraph 59 is whether or not it is disadvantageous to the Africans and, in addition, not only has it got to be disadvantageous to them but it must also be a provision to which Europeans are not also subjected. For that reason it seems to me that the hon. and learned Gentleman is in error in his explanation of the passage which I have just read. If, however, I am wrong on that, I shall be glad to be corrected and to have it explained precisely where I have fallen into error.
    My next point is the complaint suggested by the Secretary of State in the passage I have read. It was that "detrimental to African interests" was too wide. My first answer to that is the one I have already given, that if an Amendment is adopted on the lines of the interpretation given by the Undersecretary in the passage I have read, making that absolutely clear in the scheme, it will go far to meet our objection. Secondly, it is far preferable in a Measure of this kind and in a definition of this kind to be wide rather than narrow. I will explain exactly why.
    The only effect of making a Measure differential is to enable the African Affairs Board, if it thinks fit, to reserve the Measure for Her Majesty's pleasure. So the African Affairs Board has to come to the conclusion that a Measure ought to be referred for Her Majesty's pleasure. That is one safeguard. The other is to reserve it for Her Majesty's pleasure, and she may or may not assent, as she thinks fit. So all it does is to refer it to the discretion of Her Majesty's Ministers. In our view it is vital that Her Majesty should be able to consider legislation which is detrimental to Africans and to which the African Affairs Board objects, and that the Government should have an opportunity of considering that Measure before it is put into operation.
    In our debate of 18th June the Undersecretary made what seemed to me to be some significant observations. He indicated that the local police in the Terri-

    1991
    tories would be responsible for enforcing the legislation passed by the central Legislature. May I refresh the memory of the hon. and learned Gentleman? I asked:
    "What is intended about the police? Is it intended that they should come under the central authority, or do they remain under the territorial authority?"
    The hon. and learned Gentleman replied:
    "My recollection is that they are to be local."
    Then I asked:
    "Does that mean that the central authority will be passing legislation which it will be the duty of the police under the territorial authority to enforce?"
    He answered, "Yes," and then I asked:
    "Would that mean that the central authority, the Federation, would be passing laws which this country, as the responsible authority for the Territories, would be responsible for enforcing?"
    He answered:
    "In a way, yes. The local police would enforce."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th June, 1953; Vol. 516, c. 1332.]
    That is the extraordinary anomalous position to which we are reduced as the result of carrying through this legislation. Let us consider the constitutional position. We have a Federation set up composed of Territories, in two of which we are the supreme authority responsible inside those Territories. As the territorial Authority, we are responsible for the police, for law and order. The central Authority can pass legislation which might arouse the keenest opposition inside those Territories but, nevertheless, we are responsible for seeing that it is enforced.
    This is a serious constitutional difficulty and I should be very glad if the hon. and learned Gentleman would deal expressly with his point. Here we are, an independent, sovereign Power, and the Federation not having as yet Dominion status. Yet we have the Federation, under the Constitution which Her Majesty's Government propose, put into a position of being able to pass laws which we have to enforce inside these Territories. Supposing those laws raise the franchise and that they do not differentiate within the meaning of the scheme. Supposing that laws analogous to the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act or the Public Safety Act of South Africa are passed and do not differentiate. Nevertheless, as I understand it, we are responsible for seeing that those
    1992
    laws are enforced and law and order maintained in those Territories, despite the aggravation which may be caused by oppressive legislation of that kind. That is a really impossible position in which to put this country.
    Where do we draw the line? Supposing that did happen. In dealing with constitutional matters one cannot disregard such a possibility, and it is our duty to probe these possibilities and see how far the Constitution provides for them. Supposing there is an outbreak or outrages caused by legislation of an oppressive character; what do we do? Do we send the Lancashire Fusiliers to maintain law and order, despite this legislation? What is our responsibility? The least we can ask is that before legislation of that kind is put into operation at all it should be capable of being referred by the African Affairs Board, which is responsible for African interests, for consideration by the Secretary of State. That is all we ask in this Amendment. It is the least that the Government can do in order to safeguard the position.
    As I see it, the Government have put the country into a quite impossible position in this respect. I strongly urge the Government to make clear beyond any shadow of doubt that the object of paragraph 59 of the scheme is to ensure that legislation which is not only differentiating but detrimental to African interests can be reserved by the African Affairs Board for Her Majesty's pleasure. If such is the intention of the Government, they should in that definition achieve their intention beyond doubt and beyond argument.
    Mr. Foster: I shall deal first with the points made by the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, North-East (Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas) about the words "disadvantageous," "differentiating" and "detrimental." I conceive the fallacy of his argument. I conceive the fallacy to be that he has not paid any or sufcient attention to the words
    "which will in its practical application have such an effect."
    The hon. and learned Member argued that, by the way in which the scheme has been drafted in paragraph 59, a Measure which was in his submission actually detrimental to the Africans would not come within the definition in

    1993
    the scheme, because it would not be caught by the definition of the word "differentiating." He took the example of the franchise law and I think it is easier to work on the example. He put in the forefront of his argument the proposition that I had disregarded the words,
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable."
    and that by disregarding those words I had missed the point he was putting forward.
    7.45 p.m.
    I shall deal with the matter in this way. Let us take a Measure which applies equally to Europeans and to Africans. The hon. and learned Member is arguing that that cannot come into the definition because it applies equally to them but may be detrimental, in his terminology, to the African. I do not agree, and I hope I shall be able to satisfy him because I understand that if I am able to satisfy him that our definition of the word "differentiating" will catch that he will be satisfied on this matter.
    May I say in parenthesis that I am not taking the dichotomy he advocated on "intention" and "construction," because what we say is "construction" is our intention and there is no necessity for me to follow his division? There was a necessity for him to do so because his first thesis was that he wanted to make sure that what my right hon. Friend and I said had the same intention. I understand from his answer to my intervention that he was satisfied that I have only to explain that my hon. Friend and I are saying the same thing and that the construction equals that. That is the scheme of my answer.
    At the end I shall explain why in my submission what my right hon. Friend and I are saying amounts to the same thing. I am now dealing with the construction. The imaginary franchise Act which we are hypothecating has the same restrictions, conditions and disabilities equally applicable to Africans and Europeans. The hon. and learned Member says they cannot differentiate according to the scheme because there is nothing on which the section could operate, as it applies equally to Europeans. In my submission the words,
    "which will in its practical application have such an effect"
    1994
    do take account of that very factor. Spelt out, they mean a Bill which makes Africans liable to conditions to which Europeans are not subjected or which in its practical effect—this is my interpolation—not in its technical or legal application of construction, but in its practical effect, do have the effect of rendering Africans liable to restrictions or conditions or disabilities to which Europeans are not subject—I emphasise the word "disabilities"—then the Measure would operate and the African Affairs Board could take action. That is where the point of difference is.
    Mrs. White: By way of illustration, supposing in legislation in the Federal House a monetary penalty Clause were included in the Bill of a kind which to the great majority of Europeans might be small and possibly negligible, but for the great majority of Africans might be a very serious matter indeed. In circumstances of that kind, would the hon. and learned Gentleman consider that the Africans Affairs Board could refer such a matter as it would be disadvantageous to the majority of the Africans?
    Mr. Foster: Yes, that is the point, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady. We are not now dealing with the construction of the law but the practical application would be to subject Africans to disabilities to which Europeans are not subject.
    Sir F. Soskice: Following the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) would every single Income Tax provision be a differentiating Measure in that sense, because the Africans might find it more difficult to pay Income Tax than white people?
    Mr. Foster: I should have thought it would, because that is the reason why Africans do not pay Income Tax at the moment. It is realised that they do not have the same incomes. Where the general conditions of the Africans are different, and the law is, on basis, the same for both Africans and Europeans but is not the same in its practical application, then this provision operates. If I am right in this argument, then I gather that the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not quarrel about the intention.
    Sir F. Soskice: But does the hon. and learned Gentleman realise where the argument leads him? Is he saying that the true effect of the words is that any Measure which in even a small degree affects Africans more adversely than it affects Europeans is within the definition of a differentiating Measure. That is where his argument leads him, and obviously it is going far too far.
    Mr. Foster: It does not go further than the right hon. Gentleman's word "detrimental." I am not saying that his words are nonsense; all I am saying is that this definition goes as far as the right hon. and learned Gentleman wanted to go in his Amendment by using the word "detrimental."
    Mr. Paget: Surely what the hon. and learned Gentleman is doing is what he did last time. He is forgetting the words,
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected."
    If we put on a poll tax, it is payable by everybody—Europeans and Africans; and it may be to the detriment of the Africans, but it is not a detriment to the Africans, either in its theoretical or practical application, to which Europeans are not subjected.
    Mr. Foster: We say the exact opposite. The poll tax is a Measure which in its practical application will subject an African to a disability to which a European is not subjected because, while the European is liable to the tax, he is not liable to the disability. I do not ask the hon. and learned Gentleman necessarily to agree with me, but merely to see that we have reached a point where no amount of discussion on either side will improve the argument.
    The matter is perhaps not as serious as has been suggested because it will be noted that it has to be "in the opinion of the African Affairs Board." On a very tight argument like this—and assuming, merely for the purpose of the sentence, that there is more in the right hon. and learned Gentleman's argument than I think there is—I do not think anybody could stop the African Affairs Board if they followed the construction which I have put forward. I only advance that as a reason for saying that I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman need be as anxious about the effect as he appears to be.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: I am afraid that the hon. and learned Gentleman has been interrupted quite a lot and that it is difficult for him, but he cannot argue that in practice we need not bother about the interpretation. That is where his last observation leads. Obviously we must get the interpretation right. If the African Affairs Board acted wrongly, they could be restrained from taking that action. Take the case of the Public Safety Act and the Criminal Law Amendment Act, where they could be restrained by the courts from exercising their discretion. I think we can throw that argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman on one side.
    The crux of the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument lies in the words,
    "which will in its practical application have such an effect."
    He relied on those words, but they carry him no further in his argument. They do not aid him in the way in which he calls them in aid. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) has already made the point: have what effect? If the effect is
    "a Bill or instrument by which Africans are subjected or made liable to any conditions, restrictions or disabilities disadvantageous to them to which Europeans are not also subjected"
    —which the hon. and learned Gentleman again left out—then the words
    "which will in its practical application have such an effect"
    simply bring in again the words
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected."
    There is no point in his relying, therefore, on the words
    "which will in its practical application have such an effect"
    because that carries his argument no further.
    The whole issue, therefore, is whether the phrase,
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected"
    does or does not mean—and I say it does—that a case is taken outside paragraph 59 if there are Europeans who are subjected to the Bill or instrument or the conditions, restrictions or disabilities in the Bill or instrument. That is precisely what we object to. It does not have to be more Africans or most of the Africans being affected, whereas most Europeans are not. I dealt with that point and will not repeat the argument.
    Mr. Foster: If the hon. and learned Gentleman's construction were right, and the fact that some Europeans were subjected to it as well as some Africans took it out of the paragraph, then his argument is valid. But I doubt whether stating it backwards and forwards will help very much. Perhaps I may follow his construction to the point where we diverge, which will be easier. His criticism of my argument is that I did not read the words,
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected."
    I agree that they should be read.
    Take the poll tax, which is imposed equally on Aficans and Europeans. If we omit the words
    "which will in its practical application have such an effect"
    the right hon. and learned Gentleman's construction is correct, but if those words are inserted, and if the effect of the tax is to subject Africans to the disability of having to pay the tax when they have no money, then that is a disability to which Europeans are not subjected. The second time round the word "disability" does not mean the same as it does the first time round, because the first time round we are looking at a legal disability—a disability imposed by the Bill. In that case we do not find the disability, because on this hypothesis Europeans and Africans are subjected to the same poll tax.
    But the second time round it means something different; it means the difference between the practical disability and the legal disability. The second time round we look at the practical disability, and we find that there is a practical disability in that to the European the poll tax is a small sum and to the African it is a large sum. There we find a disability to which Europeans are not subjected.
    Mr. J. Johnson: Does this mean that the Government accept the fact that in a plural society, where white Europeans have a higher living standard, there is bound to be not a differentiating but certainly a detrimental and disadvantageous impact, whatever legislation we pass?
    Mr. Foster: In the sphere of money, I accept that. It is so. I am not saying that the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his hon. Friends are wrong in what
    1998
    they want and that we differ from them. I am saying that they are right in what they want and that we agree with them. It is only a matter of construction. I may be too obstinate. Here we have four or five lawyers disagreeing about construction. These words are in the scheme and they do what we say they do.
    8.0 p.m.
    May I turn to the point of whether the Amendment would do it? The Amendment first of all just alludes to the words:
    "detrimental to the interests of the African population."
    It then goes on to enable the African Affairs Board to halt all legislation. We disagree on principle with hon. Members opposite if they really want that. The scheme is that the legislation goes forward and that the African Affairs Board cannot stop it at any stage except when it has passed through all the stages of legislation, when they can in a sense, force the Speaker to forward it to the Governor-General to refer it to London.
    The Amendment does something different. It may be unintentional and, if so, we disagree. If it is intentional then the Amendment ought not to do it. The words in the Amendment would be without a definite offer to wait, and that is where the statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman comes in, and where I agree with him. If the word "detrimental" is to be left the African Affairs Board would not know where they were. The word "detrimental" would bring in any legislation, as the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) has said, and would give the African Affairs Board, not the right to object to detrimental legislation, but to any legislation at all.
    Mr. Paget: The hon. and learned Gentleman's construction does that.
    Mr. Foster: No it does not, because there are many spheres apart from money where it could not be construed that there was a disability to Africans even though they did not live in houses.
    Mr. Paget: Such as the Criminal Law Amendment Act affects South Africa?
    Mr. Foster: I do not want to be diverted by the Criminal Law Amendment Act.
    As I have said, I doubt if arguing back and forward, and disagreeing on con-

    1999
    struction will get us any further. I think hon. Members opposite understand what I was trying to say, and also the way in which I have argued that it will have such an effect plus the second time round effect. The first disability will be a legal disability and the other a practical disability.
    With regard to the point raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman about the police, I would answer colloquially, "So what?" I think he has raised a false dilemma. He has assumed legislation which is so unpopular that it has to be enforced with a certain amount of force in the territory. Evidently his suggestion is that as our proposals are unacceptable to him, the Federation should enforce it with federal police; that they should be responsible for law and order. That must be so.
    He is assuming that the Federation will not work with the central legislature and the executive will possibly cease to enforce laws which are unpopular, and therefore he has put it in a dilemma, as something repugnant to him. It would be dreadful for the territory police to enforce it and it would be equally dreadful if the Federation was responsible for law and order. The objection is to the hypothesis, namely, such unpopular legislation as would have to be enforced. That is not an objection to the way in which we have provided for law and order to be enforced by the Territories.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: If I may answer straight away, I would say, certainly. The dilemma to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has referred is the inevitable result of his pushing this scheme of federation through. The Government's scheme of federation involves putting this country as the Power responsible for two of the Territories under the Federal Legislature and that is the ridiculous, anomalous and absurd thing which this Government have done. It results in precisely the dilemma I have indicated, and that inevitably arises.
    I used it on this Amendment to show that the least we can do therefore, in order to avoid other consequences of pushing through this Central African scheme, would be to ensure that Measures to which the African Affairs Board object as detrimental to African interests should
    2000
    be defined in as wide a way as possible, in order to enable the Colonial Secretary or the Commonwealth Secretary to have the opportunity of disallowing legislation to which they object before it comes into effect.
    Mr. Foster: I think the hon. and learned Gentleman also used it to say it was wrong for the State or the territorial police to have to enforce these laws——
    Sir. L. Ungoed-Thomas: No, I did not say that.
    Mr. Foster: That is inevitable, and I imagine the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree. If there is enforcement to be made it is our place to enforce it. I would like the hon. and learned Gentleman to answer that. If it has to be enforced does he suggest that the Federation should be responsible?
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: No. Of course the hon. and learned Gentleman has posed the most frightful dilemma and that is what I am complaining about. From these Opposition benches I am not answering the dilemma. I am pointing out the iniquitous result of the dilemma in which this Government have placed the country.
    Mr. Foster: I think "iniquitous" is a very strong term. The difficulty is the point of construction. The hon. and learned Gentleman must not get away with it in this way. He has linked up the enforcement of a hypothetical law with the African Affairs Board not being able to forward it to the Secretary of State. That depends on the point of construction. Therefore, he calls it "iniquitous," because in his view we are forcing on the people of this country and Central Africa a Clause which in his view is not properly construed——
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: No——
    Mr. Foster: Anyway, I have made my point——
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: That is a complete travesty of what I said.
    Mr. Foster: I fail to see that it even begins to be a travesty and therefore I think I have dealt with the point raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
    Mr. Hale: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman deal with the point which I raised about four hours ago. The Minister of State for the Colonies gave an assurance that the hon. and learned Member will deal with my specific point.
    Mr. Foster: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will correct me if I go wrong about what was his point as I was not in the Chamber at the time he made it.
    Mr. Hale: The whole position depends on who is the chairman of the Board. There will be six members of the Board and the chairman will have a casting vote. If the chairman is a European then the African Affairs Board ceases to have any importance, unless the right European is selected. Who is to be the chairman? Is he to be a European or an African? Is the hon. and learned Member prepared to indicate that the chairman of the African Affairs Board will be an African?
    Mr. Foster: No. I am not. As I explained in a previous debate the casting vote of the chairman is to be exercised in such a manner as to provide that the matter should be kept under discussion. That will safeguard the position. Obviously the Governor-General will select the best person, in his opinion, to be chairman and he will not decide on the grounds of race.
    Mr. Hale: How is the casting vote exercised so as to keep the matter under discussion? The very point we are discussing is this question before the Committee, is this a differentiating Measure or not? How do we keep the matter under discussion? We have to come to a decision straight away.
    Mr. Foster: Three members of the committee who may be either Europeans or Africans, any three members, are pushing that a Measure be sent to the Speaker and the other three object. It would be the duty of the Chairman to keep the matter under further discussion, if the time-table was approaching near where the Bill would pass into law. Unless a report came from the African Affairs Board, they would have to vote for the report to be sent to the Speaker. The hon. Member will remember that there is a provision there which says that in the event of disagreement it shall be reported to the Speaker in the statement which is forwarded to him.
    Mr. Paget: On the point of construction, I would only say that in my view, for what it is worth, the words themselves are quite incapable of bearing the meaning which the hon. and learned Gentleman has sought to put upon them. But even if one were to concede for a moment that these words were capable of either meaning—and I do not think that they are even capable of the hon. and learned Gentleman's interpretation—then I believe that any court would still have to select the meaning which my hon. and learned Friend has placed upon them for this reason.
    This is an interpretation of a differential Measure. If we adopt the Under-Secretary's construction, the differential Measure becomes meaningless because in a society divided such as this is, no Measure that one can conceive can fail to have a differential effect in its practical application upon the two races. One cannot conceive of a Measure which in its practical application does not have a differential effect upon these two races. If the practical effect is to be divorced from the words:
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected,"
    then the differential Measure covers every Measure which this Federation could conceivably pass. "Differential" has ceased to have a meaning. So that if there is a choice between these two interpretations, then the interpretation which gives a meaning to "differential Measure" would be that which would have to be adopted.
    Mr. Foster: Cannot it be "disadvantageous" and not "differential"?
    Mr. Paget: Yes, certainly. It has different advantages, restrictions or disabilities. It would cover everything. But let us drop that for a moment, because I agree rather that one does not get very much further by hammering a point of construction when there is no judge to decide it.
    My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Neepsend (Sir F. Soskice), my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Leicester, North-East (Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas), and myself, for what very little that is worth, all take very strongly indeed one view of the meaning of this Clause. The Under-Secretary takes another view. When we are trying to make a constitution upon which the lives

    2003
    of Africans depend, why on earth not select words as to the meaning of which we can agree? They do not seem to be very difficult to find.
    All we have to do is to omit the words "to which Europeans are not also subjected." The hon. and learned Gentleman says that those words have no meaning at all. We say that they have a meaning and that it is a meaning which has the effect of making this Clause mean what the hon. and learned Gentleman does not want it to mean. What is the trouble? If we omit those words he is giving nothing because, according to him, they are meaningless. We are getting what we want. We can then all agree and be happy about what the Clause means. Why not let us settle this argument simply in that way, which appears to satisfy everybody?
    If we cannot conclude the argument here by agreement, which seems to be a very small thing to ask, let me deal with the next point. The other point which the hon. and learned Gentleman takes is that this does not really matter, because it is the opinion of the African Affairs Board, and they will be able to adopt, whether sincerely or not, whichever opinion they like, and, after all, if the Government have expressed an opinion as strongly as the hon. and learned Gentleman has done they might accept that opinion.
    8.15 p.m.
    The whole trouble here is that this must be a matter of the procedure of the African Affairs Board, and whether the matter will be in order for the consideration of the African Affairs Board will depend on what the chairman rules. It is not here a question of a casting vote. It is for the chairman to decide whether anything can or cannot be considered by his Board. Therefore, the vital question here is. who is the chairman?
    We are told that we cannot have "differential" and that there can be no assurance that there will be an African chairman but that, of course, the Governor-General will choose the best man. That is the Parliamentary way of saying that the chairman will, of course, be a white man. There is no question at all that that is the intention and that that is what is going to happen. There-
    2004
    fore, that protection does not seem to be a very large one. We should very much rather this Clause was so worded that it would then, without any doubt, mean what both sides of the Committee intend it to mean. What is the difficulty about that? I wish the hon. and learned Gentleman would tell us what the difficulty is.
    Mr. Foster: If we had the word "detrimental" it would have the very effect which the hon. and learned Gentleman is putting forward, because in the Amendment the words are:
    "detrimental to the interests of the African population. …"
    The word "detrimental" in the Amendment does not import any degree of differentiation between Africans and Europeans. Most legislation is detrimental. Some people have to take out dog licences; others have to pay Income Tax, and so on: all legislation is detrimental in effect. This Amendment does not say "specially detrimental to the Africans" or "detrimental to the Africans because of their circumstances." In fact, the words in this Amendment would have the effect which the hon. and learned Gentleman does not want.
    Mr. Paget: I am afraid that the hon. and learned Gentleman has not followed me. I do not agree with his submission as to the meaning of "detrimental." However, I waive that so far as my speech is concerned. All I am suggesting is this. Let him have his definition with regard to "detrimental," as to which we do not agree. Let us stick to "differential "and merely omit
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable."
    Those are words which, according to him, are meaningless.
    Mr. Foster Mr. Foster indicated dissent.
    Mr. Paget: I understood that the whole of the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument depended on that point.
    Mr. Foster: No. Those words are essential, but they mean something different from what the hon. and learned Gentleman says they mean. My argument is that the word "detrimental" in this Amendment without a qualifying provision about Europeans, brings in the universality of which complaint is made.

    2005
    I am sorry if the hon. and learned Gentleman understood exactly the opposite of what I have said.
    Mr. Paget Mr. Paget rose——
    Mr. Foster: I do not think there is any point in going on with this discussion.
    Mr. Paget: Let us just see. I think it is very important that we should go on at this point, because the hon. and learned Gentleman seems to have entirely reversed his argument. Let us have a look at the definition paragraph, because it is important that we, and the Africans as well, should understand what it says. It says this:
    "In this paragraph and in the subsequent provisions of this Chapter the expression 'differentiating measure' means a Bill or instrument by which Africans are subjected or made liable to any conditions, restrictions or disabilities disadvantageous to them"—
    and so on. Does he not see that that has a universality?
    Mr. Foster: Yes, of course, it has.
    Mr. Paget: The hon. and learned Gentleman now says that the words "to which Europeans are not also subjected" are restrictive. As I understood his whole argument before, they were not restrictive.
    Mr. Foster: That was not the word I used; I said they are essential.
    Mr. Paget: Let us just get this right. The words "to which Europeans are not also subjected" restrict the phrase to any conditions or disabilities disadvantageous to them; either they do that or they do not. What does the hon. and learned Gentleman say now? Do they restrict that phrase or not?
    Mr. Foster: I quite agree, but I did not use the word restrictive. As the hon. and learned Gentleman puts it now, I agree it is restrictive, but I did not use the word, and that is all I said.
    Mr. Paget: During a long speech, the whole point of which was that they are not restrictive——
    Mr. Foster Mr. Foster indicated dissent.
    Mr. Paget: At any rate, whether or not we have this Amendment, surely, when the hon. and learned Gentleman comes to make a constitution which has important provisions—and this has been emphasised—for the protection of
    2006
    coloured wards—for that is what they are—it is important that that which we should both intend should be expressed in words which we can both understand. After all, I do not believe that any great difficulty can arise if we get together.
    The Order in Council has not yet been drafted. Why cannot the hon. and learned Gentleman give an undertaking to consider a form of words afterwards, and see if we can find a form of words which will express what we both intend and desire? Surely, the hon. and learned Gentleman can go as far as that? Cannot he say that, if this Amendment is withdrawn, we will meet together afterwards and find a form of words which we can agree expresses what both of us intend? Cannot he say that?
    I am afraid this is where we simply come to the situation in which one has to say that, throughout this Bill, the Government have been thoroughly dishonest. They are putting forward a Measure containing protections and restrictions which they know perfectly well are bogus, and which we have said are bogus from start to finish. Here they come with a lot of prevaricating argument pretending that this means something which they know perfectly well it does not. When we ask them if they are prepared to meet us to consider words to express what they say is the meaning, they are not even prepared to do that.
    The whole of this debate as to the protection of Africans has been nauseating hyprocrisy on the part of the Government from start to finish, and the intention of this Federation—as it has been throughout—is to maintain and preserve white supremacy. It is not the Government's intention, and there has never been the smallest intention of preventing the sort of legislation which has come about in the Dominion of South Africa. There is not the smallest intention of creating a coloured civil service here, and it has been nauseating hypocrisy from start to finish, and that is the real answer.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: May I deal with the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Undersecretary? I gather that his real difficulty in accepting the Amendment is that he feels that it goes too far, and that it

    2007
    introduces words which have the same kind of universality to which we object in the provisions of the scheme. I want briefly to put a point which arises out of what the hon. and learned Gentleman said. He was arguing that the argument of my hon. and learned Friend was based on a fallacy concerning the words at the end of paragraph 59 of the scheme. Surely, the real point is this. Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee are trying to define in precise language the kind of legislation which the African Affairs Board shall have the right to reserve. I agree that some such words as
    "to which Europeans are not also subjected or made liable"
    may be necessary if we want to introduce into the scheme the idea of discrimination.
    There are three kinds of Measures which could be held to be discriminatory. There would be, first of all, measures which, on the face of it, are discriminatory and no one imagines that any Legislature in its senses will pass legislation which, on the face of it, is discriminatory. Therefore, it is totally unlikely that there will be any legislation of that kind. The real object is to arrive at a form of words which, in fact, will indicate that legislation discriminates unfairly to the disadvantage of Africans, and the Minister says that, if we use the word detrimental, it may be going too far, because it may apply to all legislation. If that is his only objection, we may have to introduce some qualifications to make it clear that its effect is not only detrimental to Africans, but in practice discriminates against them.
    I think the words which one has to try to incorporate into this Bill or the Order in Council are words which would give effect to the idea of legislation which produces practical discrimination against the Africans, and I have no doubt myself that, on the construction of paragraph 59 of the scheme as it now stands, the words
    "… or a Bill or instrument which will in its practical application have such an effect"
    may have the effect of imposing conditions. It has the effect of imposing conditions to which Europeans are not also subjected.
    2008
    8.30 p.m.
    Take a third example. Supposing there was a Measure which stated that its provisions should only apply to a person who could prove that one of his parents was born in England, such a Measure would obviously discriminate against Africans, but it would apply equally to Europeans, because some Europeans could prove that and others could not. What I thought was most significant——
    Mr. Hale: Would my hon. Friend consider the question of the sale of maize meal to whites and to blacks? As maize meal is normally only eaten by the coloured man it would be a very serious discrimination.
    Mr. Fletcher: Very serious. One could imagine a whole series of Measures which would totally discriminate against Africans; some of which in a larger degree than others discriminate against Africans, and others which are borderline cases. It may be that it is the borderline cases with which we are most concerned.
    I thought that the most significant feature of what has happened so far was the Minister's refusal to commit himself or to express any opinion as to how such a Measure as the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act of South Africa or the Public Safety Act of South Africa, to both of which my hon. and learned Friend referred, would be considered under the construction which the Minister placed upon them. There we have Acts in which the language used is of universal application, but there is nothing in the text of either Act which says that they are designed to prejudice Africans or Europeans. They apply equally. But, as everyone knows, they are Acts which impose special disabilities and restrictions, and which are particularly disadvantageous to Africans. It might be argued that they did not discriminate against Africans because Europeans are equally subjected to them.
    That is the kind of Act which we are considering, and we want to make sure that Acts of that kind can be reserved for Her Majesty's pleasure. Would the Minister give us his opinion as to whether Measures of this kind come within the ambit of paragraph 59 and could be reserved at the will of the African Affairs Board? Unless we can have an assurance to that end, I hope that my hon. Friends

    2009
    will press this Amendment, because it seems to me absolutely essential that for the protection of the African people, whom we are pledged to defend, this Bill should not be left as at present and that an Amendment must be inserted to make quite clear the intention on which we all agree. I hope that we shall receive an asurance from the Minister on this point.
    Mr. Foster: The hon. Gentleman has raised the same point in another form, and the answer is the same. In so far as any Act has a practical effect of imposing disabilities on Africans to which Europeans are not subjected, it comes under the definition of a differentiating Measure. I would add, in parentheses, that there are Measures which are discriminatory in favour of the Africans. The hon. Gentleman is presumably excluding those, because the word "discriminatory" does not necessarily mean disadvantageous or detrimental. I only say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the words to which Europeans are subjected are necessary because, without that qualification of the words "detrimental" or "disadvantageous," there is universality. That is the difference between us, and I think that, in the end, the hon. and learned Gentleman appreciated that.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: I do not think that is the issue between us, and I am very anxious to get it perfectly clear that we really intend the same thing by paragraph 59. If there is the possibility of an opportunity for conversation about amending paragraph 59, then we should like to have that opportunity.
    May I say, first of all, that on the latter part of our Amendment there is no difference of principle between us. This is the point which I want to have made clear. The paragraph says:
    "… disadvantage to which Europeans are not also subjected."
    The essential point of our case is that if there are any Europeans, a fair number, who are subjected to the legislation, even though in its effect it is overwhelmingly anti-African, it is not within paragraph 59. If the intention of the hon. and learned Gentleman, as stated in the earlier debate from which I quoted, is that if it should be more detrimental to Africans than to Europeans, the intention is that it should be in paragraph 59. If that is the Government's intention there should be no difficulty at all in making a slight
    2010
    Amendment to paragraph 59 which would achieve that object.
    I put it to the hon. and learned Gentleman straightaway whether he would accept this, perhaps not word for word, but as expressing the intention that he has in mind:
    "A bill or instrument by which Africans are subjected or made liable to any conditions, restrictions or disabilities more disadvantageous to the interests of Africans than of Europeans;"
    or, if he likes:
    "substantially more disadvantageous to the interests of Africans than of Europeans."
    Would the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that as expressing the intention that he has in mind, or would he not? And if not why not? Would the hon. and Learned Gentleman give me an indication? I will give way for him.
    Mr. Foster: I would rather wait until the hon. and learned Gentleman finishes.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: I am not taking that point further, so I will give way.
    Mr. Foster: If we could express the greater amount of disadvantageouness in some quantitative way it might be a very slight thing. Does it express a disability to which Europeans are not subjected?
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: I understand that, and I have put in the word "substantially." I understand from the hon. and learned Gentleman that the words which I have given:
    "substantially more disadvantageous to the interests of Africans than of Europeans"
    would meet the intention that he has. If so, I completely fail to see why these precise words should not be incorporated in paragraph 59. What I ask the Government to do is to give an undertaking that they will reconsider paragraph 59 with a view to effecting in it, by appropriate words, the intention which the hon. Gentleman now indicated. Will he do that?
    Mr. Foster Mr. Foster indicated dissent.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Then what is the sense in the hon. and learned Gentleman saying that he has the intention of doing this? He accepts these words as indicating his intention far more succinctly and accurately than the words we have been arguing about tonight, and yet he will not consider amending this para-

    2011
    graph in order to carry out the intention which he has recognised is expressed by the words I have given. It is reducing this debate to a complete farce. It really is. We come here to work this out and argue about it from each side of the Committee, and we come to a form of words which the hon. and learned Gentleman recognises as expressing his intention. They are perfectly simple words. There is no difficulty at all in incorporating them, but not only will he not incorporate them, he will not reconsider the position so as to incorporate them and to avoid the difficulty we have had right through this debate.
    We are driven in a case like this to divide. It is ridiculous to conduct this debate in this kind of way with a view to coming to a solution and when we are coming to that solution to dig in one's toes in an assinine kind of way and say: "No, we won't budge."
    Take one other point which the hon. and learned Gentleman took, for the purpose of clearing it up. That was on those words,
    "… which will in its practical application have such an effect."
    Those words in fact add absolutely nothing at all to paragraph 59 of the scheme. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well that it is a well-enunciated principle that a legislature is considered to intend the necessary consequences of its own legislation; and one can only decide and ascertain those necessary consequences by applying them to the facts.
    That principle is enunciated in a very recent case in the Privy Council, a very
    illuminating case which bears strongly on the argument which we have here. I will not go into it in detail now. It is reported in the "Weekly Law Reports," volume 21, page 1142.1 will merely quote this passage from it:
    "The principle that a legislature cannot do indirectly what it cannot do directly has always been recognised by their Lordships' Board, and a legislature must, of course, be assumed to intend the necessary effect of its statutes."
    That is precisely what the Privy Council did in that case, which is a very strongly analogous case to paragraph 59. It applied it to the state of affairs as they were at the time. Of course, one is not restricted to what appears on the face of the statute itself. One considers it in its practical application, and the Government add nothing by inserting these words:
    "… which will in its practical application have such an effect."
    There is no foundation whatsoever in these words for the kind of ingenious arguments which the hon. and learned Gentleman has addressed to the Committee. I ask him to refer to that Privy Council case if he is really under the impression that those words add anything at all. It is impossible for us to carry this debate any further. It would be sheer waste of time to do so in view of the Government's attitude that whatever we on this side of the Committee say or do they will not reconsider this matter. It reduces debate to a complete farce and I advise my hon. Friends to divide in favour of the Amendment.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 171; Noes, 187.

    Division No. 201.]

    AYES

    [8.44 p.m.

    Adams, Richard

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Albu, A. H.

    Burke, W. A.

    Follick, M.

    Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Foot, M. M.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Champion, A. J.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Collick, P. H.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Baird, J.

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Glanville, James

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

    Cove, W. G.

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Bartley, P.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Grey, C. F.

    Beattie, J.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Blackburn, F.

    Deer, G.

    Hale, Leslie

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Boardman, H.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Hannan, W.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Fernyhough, E.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Brookway, A. F.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Finch, H. J.

    Hastings, S.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Murray, J. D.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Holman, P.

    Nally, W.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Orbach, M.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Padley, W. E.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Paget, R. T.

    Swingler, S. T.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Pannell, Charles

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Keenan, W.

    Parker, J.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Kenyon, C.

    Paton, J.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Peart, T. F.

    Thornton, E.

    Kinlay, J.

    Popplewell, E.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Lewis, Arthur

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Weitzman, D.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Reeves, J.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Logan, D. G.

    Rhodes, H.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Richards, R.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    McLeavy, F.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Whileley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Royle, C.

    Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Mason, Roy

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Willey, F. T.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Short, E. W.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Monslow, W.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Moody, A. S.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Williams, W. R. (Droysden)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Morley, R.

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Mort, D. L.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Moyle, A.

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Mulley, F. W

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Mr. Pearson and Mr. Arthur Allen.

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Drewe, Sir C.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

    Jennings, R.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Fell, A.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M

    Fisher, Nigel

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Kaberry, D.

    Banks, Col. C.

    Foster, John

    Kerr, H. W.

    Barber, Anthony

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Gammans, L. D.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Godber, J. B.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Gower, H. R.

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.).

    Black, C. W.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Braine, B. R.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Braithwaile, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Bullard, D. G.

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Hay, John

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Marples, A. E.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Heath, Edward

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Carr, Robert

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Mellor, Sir John

    Channon, H.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

    Crouch, R. F.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Horobin, I. M.

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Deedes, W. F.

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Hulbert, Wing, Cdr. N. J.

    Partridge, E.

    2014

    2015

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Scott, R. Donald

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Turton, R. H.

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Speir, R. M.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Span, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Stevens, G. P.

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Profumo, J. D.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Storey, S.

    Wellwood, W.

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Redmayne, M.

    Summers, G. S.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    York, C.

    Russell, R. S.

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Mr. Studholme and Mr. Wills.

    Mr. J. Griffiths: I beg to move, in page 2, line 19, to leave out subsection (2).
    The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Hopkin Morris): I think that it might be for the convenience of the Committee to take this Amendment and the first of the new Clauses together.
    Mr. Griffiths: I can put this Amendment as a point of substance very shortly. I do not know whether the Undersecretary of State for Commonwealth Relations or the Minister would care to give an explanation of subsection (2), but what we are concerned about is that it deals with the problem of the amendment of the Constitution.
    We are now discussing the Constitution, and when this enabling Bill goes through, if it does, then the provision is in the Bill itself that the Constitution has to be subject to an affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. It seems to us, therefore, that it is both logical and desirable that any amendment of the Constitution which is made in accordance with the provisions of the Order in Council which we shall be eventually seeing before us shall be made in the same way.
    I do not think that this touches on any point which has been argued before as to whether something was in the scheme or not. This is certainly a matter for us to decide in the House of Commons without reference to Central Africa or anywhere else. This is a matter in which we are masters in our own house, deciding our own procedure without having reference to anyone else.
    I think that it is right and logical, since it had been considered desirable in this case that the Constitution shall be subject, when it becomes a Constitution
    2016
    embodied in an Order in Council, to an affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament, that the same procedure should be made in the case of any amendment which may be made in the Constitution in the future in accordance with its own provisions. I think that this is desirable, and I hope that the Government will accept the Amendment.
    Mr. J. Foster: In our view it would be very cumbersome and inapposite to subject amendments to the Constitution to affirmative Resolution procedure. It would be entirely an innovation to put a provision for affirmative procedure in any Constitution for overseas territories. I do not think that the matter is possible of further debate. That is our view. It may appeal to the right hon. Gentleman if I say that this would be an innovation in so far as our researches have gone.
    Mr. Griffiths: It would not be an innovation for this matter. This is a federation. There is no precedent for it. This is not an ordinary colonial Constitution embodied in Orders in Council. When have we had an enabling Bill for a Colonial Territory? This is almost unprecedented. The Government themselves, because they have to decide the procedure, have decided on an enabling Bill, and then for an Order in Council and then for an affirmative Resolution. Surely it is logical and desirable that we should follow the same procedure if and when any amendment of the Constitution is brought before this House of Commons.
    Mr. Foster: I do not think it follows at all. There may be amendments which are quite unobjectionable, but we should have to have the machinery of the

    2017
    affirmative procedure to get the amendments through. I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's point about this being a new kind of constitution. I believe that the first Malayan Constitution was, in effect, an enabling Bill, but that does not matter.
    Mr. Bing: All hon. Members must be absolutely astounded at the answer given by the Under-Secretary. This is a most fantastic procedure. The hon. and learned Gentleman has only to look at today's Order Paper to see how absurd it is. He has talked about the cumbersome procedure and all the difficulties that would be involved, but on the Order Paper there is an affirmative Order in the name of the Minister of Transport, as follows:
    "Road Traffic and Vehicles: That the Hartlepool Corporation Act, 1925, Modification Order, 1953, a copy of which was laid before this House on 9th June, be approved."
    If we can have that procedure for Hartlepools, why cannot we have the same procedure in respect of a whole Federation in Africa? If any road in Northern Ireland is stopped up, even for 10 yards, that is subject to affirmative procedure in this House, even though Northern Ireland happens to have an independent Parliament, so-called. That provision was enacted by hon. Members opposite, and if they can do that even in respect of the stopping up of roads in Northern Ireland we ought at least to do the same in regard to federation in Africa.
    What is the objection to the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends presenting the whole Constitution in blank and then forcing through its approval? This might be described as South Sea Bubble procedure. Hon. Members are being asked to vote for a Bill to enable the Government to produce a Constitution. It is much the same as inviting people to participate in a project which has not yet been divulged. When we have given our votes for a project which has yet to be divulged, there will be brought forward a Constitution in blank which leaves out all the critical points, and when the points are put in, we shall be told, "No, they are not going to be submitted to the examination of the House."
    The borough of Eye in Suffolk has 1,034 inhabitants. If that borough de-
    2018
    cides that it wants to have its cinemas open on Sundays, that matter has to come before the House by means of an affirmative Resolution, even though there has been a poll of the inhabitants. We know that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to conduct all his alterations of the Constitution in the same way as he has introduced the Constitution, without taking the opinion of the great majority of the inhabitants of the Territories concerned, or, if he has taken their opinion, disregarding it entirely.
    Why should Eye, when its population has voted in favour of having cinemas open on Sunday, be entitled to have the whole thing reviewed by Parliament by means of an affirmative Resolution when the changing of the Constitution of a huge territory like this in Africa is not to be submitted to Parliament? This is typical of the complete disregard by hon. Gentlemen opposite of our Parliamentary tradition; it is typical of the way they attempt to do everything possible by executive order.
    My hon. Friends and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) will press the Amendment and do what he can to preserve some degree of Parliamentary sovereignty and some degree of control over right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite are not going to consult the inhabitants. The changes in the Constitution are going to be arranged behind the scenes by a handful of white Settlers and the right hon. Gentleman. Parliament is going to be excluded from considering any change they like to make.
    Earlier on we had a great point made about the wonderful things that were in the draft and how superb were these safeguards. We were told none of them was going to be changed. The right hon. Gentleman now says, "I do not want to be bothered coming down here to get an affirmative Resolution to approve the changes," changes in a document which he only got through this House because those changes were not in it at that time. That seems to be a most immoral and wrong way of behaviour. It is most undemocratic and most improper, and I hope that my hon. Friends will press this Amendment to a Division.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. J. Foster: It is a pity that the recollection of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) is so faulty that he seriously misleads the Committee. The scheme has been divulged and it is nothing like the South Sea Bubble. It has been debated nine or ten times. Every detail of it is known and will be embodied in the Order in Council.
    Mr. Bing: In that case why was it not put into the Bill?
    Mr. Foster: That is another point. The hon. Gentleman makes a false statement and he cannot ride it off by saying, when he is shown it is a false statement, why was not something else done. He is either right or wrong about the statement, and the fact is that he is wrong for the scheme has been divulged. It was very misleading to say to the Committee what he has said, because it goes out to the world and to Africa. He pretended to this Committee that the scheme had not been divulged and that it was like the South Sea Bubble. He knew that it was divulged and he said the opposite. That is what I cannot understand and that is what I deplore.
    The next thing he tells the Committee, and by that method the world, is that amendments are not to be debated in this House, that they are not to be subject to the scrutiny of this House, and that they are not to come before this House. He knows as well as I do that the negative procedure allows this House to scrutinise them, and debate them, and it is misleading to tell the Committee that the negative procedure prevents Parliament discussing them but that it brings in the back-room white settlers.
    The point was put quite fairly by the right hon. Gentleman when he said that it was the logical outcome of the way the Constitution had been agreed that there should be the affirmative Resolution procedure, and we all agree that under that procedure the House would have the opportunity to discuss this matter. The hon. and learned Gentleman must know that it is going to come before the House, and if he does not know it he has not paid any attention to the debates on the subject. I am now telling the hon. and learned Gentleman that the Constitution does come before
    2020
    this House in the form of an affirmative Resolution and this House will be able to discuss any amendments, which are to be subject to the negative procedure. I, therefore, hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the statement which he has made, which I can only assume he made in a fit of wild oratory, led astray by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget).
    Mr. Bing: If I were to be led astray I could think of no more pleasant ways than of being led astray by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) but I was neither led astray nor led astray by him. I stand by everything that I have said. The negative Resolution procedure is a most unsatisfactory one. It comes at the end of a long day's business, and any discussion of African affairs under it imposes no liability on the Government to deal with the matter.
    Of course, I know that the Government are not able to get out of the difficulty of having an affirmative Resolution for the Constitution itself. Nobody can amend it, and nobody has seen the Order in Council. It is all very well for the hon. and learned Gentleman to say that this will all be in the Order, but why did we not have the Order in draft before us and have the opportunity to amend it? We have been told all along on this Bill that we cannot amend any of these procedures because the Order is not in front of us, and the whole object of getting the Bill passed is to enable the draft to be made.
    If the Under-Secretary really believes that this is the most democratic method of framing a constitution, he ought to consult the right hon. Gentleman. He ought to look at the debates on the India Bill, where he will find that, by arrangement between the right hon. Gentleman and his own Front Bench, 60 days were allotted to the Committee stage. Why was that? Just because it was not all in an Order in Council, just because it was not a scheme subsequently to be divulged. Why cannot we debate the Constitution now? The answer is a simple one. It is because all we have as the scheme is the White Paper and we have not even got the scheme in draft. It is highly unsatisfactory. The responsibility for any change ought to rest

    2021
    fairly and squarely on the Government. They ought to give to the people of Africa, who after all are not represented, the same rights as they give to those who object to Sunday opening in the smallest borough in this country.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I am anxious that we should get on to discuss the next new Clause to be called. Therefore, I shall not spend time in dividing the Committee. I thought that the Government would have accepted this Amendment and I am more than disappointed, I am shocked, by the fact that they are turning down everything, including this Amendment. I register that protest and leave the matter at that.
    Amendment negatived.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Dugdale: I want to refer to the question of Nyasaland. We are asked in Clause 1 to agree to the federation of Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia and Southern Rhodesia. There may be a case, although I do not agree with it, for federating Northern Rhodesia and Southern Rhodesia, but whatever case there is, it is far less strong when it comes to Nyasaland. What is the position there?
    In Nyasaland they have a land and lake frontier, mainly with Tanganyika, rather than with Northern Rhodesia and Southern Rhodesia. Certainly they have very little land frontier with Southern Rhodesia. The rivers there mostly flow into the lake, and all their economic trends lead towards Tanganyika. It is true that a number of their workers work in Southern Rhodesia but they have others who work in South Africa and there is no suggestion that there should be a federation with South Africa. As regards Customs, they come within the Congo Basin Treaty, which is quite different from either of the other two countries.
    More important, they have social conditions which are quite different from those in the other two Territories, for instance their colour bar conditions. They have, too, a far smaller percentage of Europeans. There are fairly large numbers of Europeans in Northern Rhodesia and in Southern Rhodesia, although these are much smaller than the numbers of Africans. In Nyasaland the
    2022
    number is ridiculously small. In Northern Rhodesia there are 55 Africans to one European whereas in Nyasaland there are 625 Africans to every European. Then again Nyasaland is a Protectorate made by a definite agreement on 15th May, 1891.
    In the case of Barotseland we were told that special considerations prevail; that it is a Protectorate and it would have different conditions from other Territories, and that there would be special concessions. I understand, incidentally, that the paramount chief of Barotseland is by no means satisfied.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The right hon. Member may be so informed, but he is informed wrongly.
    Mr. Dugdale: I am not at all certain about that; events will prove whether that is right or not, but I am informed that in fact he is by no means satisfied and that he had great pressure put on him and was told that either he agreed or he would be left to his own devices.
    The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Hopkin Morris): It is not clear that this comes within the Clause.
    Mr. Dugdale: With great respect, I was only using it as an illustration and making the comparison between the Protectorate status of Barotseland and the Protectorate status of Nyasaland. I think the methods being used by Her Majesty's Government to persuade Nyasaland to join this Federation are exceedingly questionable. I would ask particularly if the Secretary of State would give us a little information on this point. I understand from what I take to be a reliable report—it might be that his information is different—that provincial commissioners have received the following official instruction from the Government:
    "You will have heard that in House of Commons on 6th May federation enabling bill passed its second reading with majority of 26. Mr. Attlee said that although he and his party hadn't been in favour of introducing federation at this particular juncture now that it had been decided upon by Her Majesty's Government, 'twas the duty of all in whatever party to work loyally together to make it successful. This should be given widest publicity by D.Cs and others and it should be made clear to all communities that the die is now cast. Federation has now been decided

    2023
    upon. It's useless any longer to oppose it and to raise doubts or objections.
    I submit that to tell district commissioners to make statements like that to Africans when the Bill is still being discussed, and when we have to consider it on Report stage and Third Reading and it has to go to the House of Lords is a practice not really worthy of this or any Government. I think it is a most unfortunate thing to have done, particularly as the statement deliberately misquotes the Leader of the Opposition. He did not say that and it would have been quite wrong for him to have said it. I hope that when the right hon. Gentleman replies he will tell us why it was that district commissioners in Nyasaland were instructed to misquote my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would be in order in replying because this is a matter of administration and not of Federation.
    Mrs. White: With respect, I raised this matter at an earlier stage in the debate and the Chairman of Ways and Means indicated then that we should be allowed to raise the matter on the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Deputy-Chairman: The Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" seems to me to be a very narrow matter. All the Clause does is to give power to establish Federation by Order in Council and I understand that the right hon. Member is referring to matters of administration within the Territory.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I happened to be in attendance in the Committee when my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) was proceeding on a discussion on a particular Amendment to call attention to the question referred to of misquoting the words used by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. The Chairman intervened and said that the hon. Lady could not refer to that or deal further with that particular matter on the Amendment. She intervened further and asked when there would be an opportune time to refer to it. My recollection is that the Chairman said the appropriate time would be when we came to the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    9.15 p.m.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I know nothing about the position one way or another. I do not want to restrict the debate, but it appeared to me that the right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) was dealing with a matter of administration, and administration is certainly not in order on this Question.
    Mr. Dugdale: It may well deal with administration, but it was a matter of administration reflecting directly on the discussion of the Bill and, particularly, of this Clause, which says that Nyasaland shall be federated. Earlier, we raised objections because we said the wishes of the people had not been adequately taken into account. The Government are attempting to secure the wishes of the people by making statements about speeches alleged to have been made by the Leader of the Opposition, and because that deals with the Bill I suggest that it is in order for it to be raised. As I have raised it, perhaps it would be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to reply.
    Mrs. White: I also propose to touch on the point, following the guidance given by the Chair. We have spent a long time in Committee discussing this Clause and we are now to decide whether it shall stand part of the Bill, but according to the actions of the Government all our discussions have been pointless. In their official statements they say this matter has already been decided. The Motion before the Committee is therefore a frivolous Motion. The official notices given out in Nyasaland, sent, as I understand, officially to the provincial commissioners and from them to the district commissioners, is that they should tell the population of Nyasaland that it is now certain that the Bill has been passed and——
    The Deputy-Chairman: The only thing that is in order and before the Committee is what is in the Clause. What instructions have been issued in Nyasaland or any other Territories is not within the Clause.
    Mr. Paget: On a point of order. This Bill provides that there shall be Federation, and part of the process of federating is to inform the people. That is part of the very process which we are discussing. To inform the people of Federation

    2025
    before it happened was something which I should have thought was a part, a very unfortunate, regrettable and dishonest part, but none the less a part, of the process of Federation.
    The Deputy-Chairman: With respect to the hon. and learned Gentleman, the process is not part of this Clause. The Clause provides powers to establish Federation by an Order in Council and it does not deal with whatever instructions have already been issued.
    Mr. Hale: What the Committee is discussing is whether the Clause shall stand part of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) is giving reasons why the Clause should not stand part of the Bill. It is intolerable for the Committee to be asked to pass ex post facto legislation when we have information to present to the Committee of a complete misrepresentation of the attitude of the House. Surely it is in order for her to argue that there should be a period of postponement and that we should not pass the Clause now in view of the action which has been taken in Nyasaland and in view of the conduct in relation to a speech by the Leader of the Opposition.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Whatever is in the Clause is in order, but it cannot be in order, on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," to go into the administration outside the Clause.
    Mrs. White: It is very difficult when two occupants of the Chair take a different view on a point of order, but naturally one bows to the person in charge of the debate at this time.
    I feel that this Committee is being insulted when it is asked to go through a legislative process which the people concerned are being told is completely pointless, because a decision has already been made. Surely we are entitled to inquire whether the Government really wish us to pass the Motion now before the Committee? They appear to consider it quite unnecessary that we should have the Committee stage; that the Third Reading is quite unnecessary and the proceedings in another place. Surely, therefore, we are entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he wishes the Committee to go through this apparently quite unnecessary process? I submit that that is entirely in order.
    2026
    We are being asked to put something on the Statute Book, when, according to officers under the control of the right hon. Gentleman it is not even necessary to proceed to do so, because it has already been decided. There can be no argument about it. Apparently we are wasting time in deciding whether or not this Clause shall stand part of the Bill.
    This kind of behaviour on the part of Her Majesty's Government is both disreputable in itself and also unwise. It must be known by the Africans that debate is continuing in Parliament. How can they trust Her Majesty's Government if they are told everything has been decided and yet they continue to receive reports that the matter is, in fact, still being discussed in Parliament? I consider it derogatory to the honour of this House that such statements should be published and extremely unwise on the part of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: We shall divide the Committee on the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I do not wish to enter into the long arguments over which we have ranged for a considerable time. I accept your Ruling, Mr. Hopkin Morris, and I content myself with asking the Secretary of State whether, if my hon. Friends submit to him the inaccurate statements made in this document, referring to the stage we have arrived at in this Bill and the words attributed to my right hon. Friend, he will desire to see they are corrected?
    Mr. Lyttelton: If the right hon. Gentleman is asking me to correct any statement which is contrary to the facts I am ready to give him an assurance that I will have the document corrected. I should obviously be out of order in replying to something which was not in order. Otherwise I should be prepared to deal with the matter.
    But before we part with this Clause I would refer to the first part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dug-dale). The tenor of his speech was that Nyasaland should be omitted from the Federation. That is a very curious thing for the right hon. Gentleman to put forward. In broad principle his party have supported federation. What is still more curious is that if there is any terri-

    2027
    tory more than another which will benefit economically from federation it is Nyasaland. If Nyasaland is not included it will be condemned to permanent economic poverty, and probably become a grant aided territory.
    One of the greatest attractions of Federation from the economic point of view is that it will enable Nyasaland to be part of a much larger unit. I see a far brighter economic future for Nyasaland by its inclusion than its exclusion, which would result in that state of economic poverty to which, for political reasons, the right hon. Gentleman would condemn the territory.
    I do not know if it was in order, but it was not good enough when he made some entirely inaccurate statements about the attitude of the Paramount Chief of Barotseland who left my room at, I think, five o'clock yesterday afternoon with a letter which I gave him, which he can show to anybody in Barotseland, and with which he expressed himself entirely satisfied.
    As a Member of the Privy Council the right hon. Gentleman should be a little careful about putting out statements which are not accurate——
    The Deputy-Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman must have forgotten that I did intervene on that matter.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I was not intending to get in anything which I should not, and I will therefore confine myself to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. Nyasaland will benefit. I do not wish to use a phrase like "lame duck," but the less viable—I think that is the correct present day term—of these Territories is the one which will benefit most from federation.
    Mr. Hale: On 9th June the hon Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) is recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT as having used these words:
    "I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman by what authority notices have been issued anticipating the decision of this House upon this matter? As he is no doubt aware, the district commissioner in Blantyre and, I believe, other district commissioners in Nyasaland have issued public notices to native authorities with orders that the notices should be displayed, saying, 'It is now certain that the law making federation will be passed on its Third Reading in the British Parliament'"
    2028
    The Chairman rose in his place and said:
    "While I might allow the hon. Lady to raise this point on the Question, 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill,' it does not arise on this Amendment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th June. 1953; Vol. 516, c. 45.]
    That very clear indication was not challenged by any of us at that time. We accepted it. Here was an important issue that many of us were anxious to raise; indeed, it was a matter of importance to raise. It was an almost unprecedented situation that at a time when Parliament was discussing a controversial Measure and——
    The Deputy-Chairman: These are matters of administration. They may be important matters. I have no doubt they are important; I know nothing about them. I am only concerned with the order of this debate. Matters of administration do not come within the terms of this Clause. Therefore, they are not appropriate to raise on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Hale: What I am saying is that the Chairman intervened on 9th June and said that the matter would be discussed on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." [HON. MEMBERS: "Might."] There is nothing dubious about the phrase "I might allow the hon. Lady." In that connection "might" obviously means "shall." [Laughter.] Of course, it does. Today right hon. and hon. Members opposite have made great verbal play with the words of this Measure. They seem to be getting into a habit of playing with words to a somewhat incredible extent.
    Of course, I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Hopkin Morris, but I hope that I may at least say this. I hope it will not happen again, because we were given an undertaking by the Chair without challenge. We have been deprived of our right of arguing the matter, although the suggestion from the Chair was that the relevant moment for discussion would be on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." Clearly it could have been raised on any Amendment on the Bill. It could have been raised on the whole human rights discussion, and it could have been raised on the question of leaving Nyasaland or Northern Rhodesia out. It could have been raised time after time.
    The Deputy-Chairman: When I gave my Ruling I did not know of the undertaking at all, if it was an undertaking. I merely intervened upon what appeared to me to be a clear point of order that it did not come within the terms of this Clause at all and, therefore, could not be properly raised on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." That is the reason for my Ruling.
    Mr. Hale: I appreciate that, of course. Mr. Hopkin Morris, and I also appreciate that this is a fantastic difficulty. The Chair changes its occupant from time to time and obviously there must be differences of view and of opinion. I am not trying to attack your personal conduct of the matter, Mr. Hopkin Morris, or that of the Chairman, for both of whom I have a very sincere regard. Nevertheless, it is unfortunate, to put it at its mildest, that this should have happened and we find ourselves debarred from discussing this important matter. I will not pursue that matter any more.
    Mr. Paget: Is my hon. Friend leaving that point of order?
    Mr. Hale: I did not rise on a point of order. I was addressing the Committee. I was reaching a normal conclusion of my observations in any event, because I rose primarily to make that point.
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. Paget: On a point of order. It does seem that we have a very important question raised here. I have always understood that the Chair was bound by its previous decisions. In the House, the Chair acts on precedents, and when Mr. Speaker is asked to give a Ruling, he constantly tells us what one of his predecessors on a certain occasion ruled, and that he is bound by that Ruling. With very great respect, that equally applies here. Of course, I appreciate entirely that, without knowing of the Ruling which had been given by your predecessor, you expressed an opinion and gave a Ruling that what my hon. Friend was saying was out of order, but, when a previous Ruling
    from the Chair which was contrary to your Ruling was brought to your notice, in my submission, your Ruling ought to have been reversed, and the Ruling previously given ought to have been followed. Is not that correct?
    The Deputy-Chairman: I said that I did not know what the previous discussion was; nor did I know if any Ruling was given, but it seemed to me clear, under the rules of the House that, on a Clause of this kind, in which no matters of administration are involved—and, as I understand them, these are clearly matters of administration—that would not be in order. The Clause is a very narrow Clause, which merely gives power to establish a federation by Order in Council. There is nothing at all about administration in this Clause.
    Mr. Paget: With respect, Mr. Hopkin Morris, the question, fundamentally, is whether the Clause shall stand part of the Bill. If the fact is that that which the Clause provides for has already come about, and that, therefore, the Clause is unnecessary, that, I should have thought, would be a reason why the Clause should not stand part of the Bill, and that is the point to which I understood the remarks of my hon. Friend were applied. Whether that be right or not, a Ruling having previously been given on the very point that this particular issue would be relevant on the discussion of the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," in my submission, whether the previous Ruling was right or wrong, it was none the less binding, as previous Rulings are.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I am also bound, quite clearly, by the Orders of the House and the rules of order. I have said that, when I gave the Ruling, I did not know of the previous discussion. Whether that was a discussion or a Ruling I do not know.
    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 191; Noes, 173.

    Division No. 202.]

    AYES

    [9.32 p.m.

    Aitken, W. T.

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Banks, Col. C.

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Barber, Anthony

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Black, C. W.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Braine, B. R.

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Horobin, I. M.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Profumo, J. D.

    Bullard, D. G.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Radmayne, M.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Carr, Robert

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Channon, H.

    Jennings, R.

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Russell, R. S.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Colegate, W. A.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Scott, R. Donald

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Shepherd, William

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Crouch, R. F.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Speir, R. M.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Deedes, W. F.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C

    Stevens, G. P.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Storey, S.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Fell, A.

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Studholme, H. G.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Summers, G. S.

    Fisher, Nigel

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Taylor, William (Bradford N.)

    Foster, John

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir, R. E.

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Gammans, L. D.

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Godber, J. B.

    Marples, A. E.

    Turton, R. H.

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Gower, C. F. H.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Mellor, Sir John

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Walker Smith, D. C.

    Grimston Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Webbs, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Wellwood, W.

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Hay, John

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Wills, G.

    Heath, Edward

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Partridge, E.

    York, C.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Sir Cedric Drewe and Mr. Kaberry.

    NOES

    Adams, Richard

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Albu, A. H.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

    Champion, A. J.

    Glanville, James

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Collick, P. H

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Grey, C. F.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Cove, W. G.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Baird, J.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Bartley, P.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hale, Leslie

    Beattie, J.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Deer, G.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Hannan, W.

    Blackburn, F.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Hastings, S.

    Boardman, H.

    Fernyhough, E.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Holman, P.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Finch, H. J.

    Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

    Brockway, A. F.

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Brook, Drydan (Halifax)

    Follick, M.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Foot, M. M.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Burke, W. A.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    2032

    2033

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Padley, W. E.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Paget, R. T.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Swingler, S. T.

    Keenan, W.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Kenyon, C.

    Pannell, Charles

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Kinley, J.

    Parker, J.

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Paton, J.

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Peart, T. F.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Lewis, Arthur

    Popplewell, E.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Lindgren, G. S

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Thornton, E.

    Logan, D. G.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    McAdden, S. J.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    MacColl, J. E.

    Reeves, J.

    Viant, S. P.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Rhodes, H.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Richards, R.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    McLeavy, F.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Mason Roy

    Royle, C.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Wigg, George

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

    Monslow, W.

    Short, E. W.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Moody, A. S.

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Willey, F. T.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Morley, R.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Mort, D. L.

    Slater, Mrs. H (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

    Moyle, A.

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefied)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Murray, J. D.

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Nally, W.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Sparks, J. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Orbach, M.

    Stewart, Mirchael (Fulham, E.)

    Mr. Pearson and Mr. Arthur Allen.

    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    New Clause.—(DISQUALIFICATION FOR MEMBERSHIP OF LEGISLATURE.)
    No person shall be disqualified from being a member of the Federal Legislature except upon grounds which would constitute a disqualification for membership of the Commons House of Parliament in the United Kingdom.—[Mrs. White.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mrs. White: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    I would point out that the words in the proposed new Clause
    "No person shall be disqualified from being a member of the Federal Legislature …,"
    include becoming a member or remaining a member of the Federal Legislature.
    This is our last attempt to try to include in the Bill safeguards for the Africans in these Territories. So far, we have been completely unsuccessful in moving Her Majesty's Government to meet us on any point that we put forward, but I hope, notwithstanding that, that the arguments which we are about to adduce on this new Clause will convince the Government that they ought to look once again at the federal scheme as it stands in Command Paper 8754.
    2034
    If the scheme goes forward as it is without Amendment we shall be committing a quite monstrous injustice. I refer in particular to the provisions for disqualification which are given on pages 18 and 19 of the federal scheme. Those apply to persons qualified to stand for election to the Federal Legislature under the special arrangement for specially-elected Europeans and specially-elected African members. Those have been set out in detail in the federal scheme. The conditions for the ordinary elected members, and not those who particularly represent African interests or the Africans themselves, have not been set out in the scheme because, according to a footnote to page 18, the existing electoral laws in the several Territories should apply to them. We are, therefore, considering the disqualifications which have to apply to the African members or to the Europeans who represent their interests.
    I shall try to show that those disqualifications of the African representatives when compared with the disqualifications for the other elected members—those referred to in the footnote to page 18—are such that the Africans will be put in a less advantageous position than other members. I should like the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs to study the disqualifications which are enumerated in

    2035
    paragraph 22 of the federal scheme. I do not think that we should have any objection to 22 (a), but I should like the Committee to note that a person is disqualified from elections under 22 (b) or from continuing to be a member of the Legislature, under 26 (j), if he
    "holds or is acting in any office of emolument under the Crown; …"
    That is not qualified in any way. If that provision is not altered the effect will be that those members who are elected to represent Africans, or to be specially concerned with African interests, cannot become Ministers.
    9.45 p.m.
    If one takes the corresponding arrangements in Southern Rhodesia, the only one of the Territories which at present has Ministers, one finds that the legislation there concerning membership provides that no one shall remain a member who
    "shall accept any office of profit under the Crown other than of a Minister, …"
    If it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government that any of these persons, European or African, may conceivably become Ministers then clearly this provision must be put in the Order in Council, and it must be possible for them to hold that type of office under the Crown that is mentioned in the Southern Rhodesian legislative instrument.
    The provision in this scheme seems to me to be a quite definite piece of discrimination. If it is unintentional, as I trust that it is, I hope that Her Majesty's Government will consider the matter and make certain that under the Order in Council there is no possibility of these members being prevented from becoming Ministers, should they be so appointed. That seems to me to be a very important point.
    There are other important disqualifications concerning candidature for or membership of the Federal Assembly. I will not discuss the disqualification relating to bankruptcy provided in paragraph 22 (c). Those of us who have studied this matter are very much disquieted by the disqualification in paragraph 22 (d) and the corresponding disqualification in paragraph 26 (i) because it is quite clear that this provision is something more stringent than is to be found in existing Legislatures in the Territories. We feel that it
    2036
    is putting an intolerable condition upon persons who might be elected to represent Africans.
    It is suggested that anyone who has
    "within the immediately preceding five years completed the serving of, a sentence of imprisonment (by whatever name called) exceeding six months imposed in any part of Her Majesty's dominions …"
    may not stand as a candidate for election.
    Mr. Brockway: Shame.
    Mrs. White: It is clear that this condition is very serious indeed. In the corresponding provisions in the Southern Rhodesia Constitution, which we sometimes criticise in debates in this Chamber, a person may not remain a member of their Legislature if he shall have been
    "sentenced to imprisonment without option of a fine for a term of not less than 12 months,"
    not six months. Similarly he may not become a candidate if, within the previous five years, he has been imprisoned as a consequence of having been convicted of a crime and sentenced to hard labour without the option of a fine, or to any greater punishment.
    It is clear that serious offences are concerned in those provisions, and the person concerned would have been guilty of a crime
    "for which he shall have received a sentence of imprisonment with hard labour without the option of a fine,"
    and so forth. But the condition here is a sentence of "imprisonment (by whatever name called) …" That might cover all kinds of things. In Kenya it may happen that persons are detained in preventive custody—and I presume that "imprisonment (by whatever name called)" would cover that—without at any time having been brought to trial, but the fact that they were detained for six months without necessarily having been convicted of anything would, under this arrangement, mean that for five years they would be disqualified from standing as candidates for election by their own people. This provision is open to the most serious abuse.
    Further, it will be noted that this provision applies not only within the Federal Territory; it includes a person who has been imprisoned in any part of Her Majesty's Dominions. We can very easily imagine that a citizen of one of these

    2037
    Territories, working in the Union of South Africa—which is at present one of Her Majesty's Dominions, whatever it may become in the future—may have committed an offence against one of the Union's laws which we abhor, and he may have been imprisoned for six months. I shall not go into the details of the legislation of the Union of South Africa, but it is perfectly obvious that a situation might arise in which a person was kept in detention in the Union of South Africa for six months or longer when we might all feel that he was absolutely morally right in what he had done. But because of that detention he can be debarred for five years from standing as a candidate to represent, in the Federal Legislature, his people for any one of these Territories.
    I suggest that this provision, as it stands at present, is something which ought not to be allowed to pass this Committee without the most strenuous protest If it has come into the scheme inadvertently, without due consideration on the part of Her Majesty's Government, they can at least give us the assurance that they will amend it in the proposed Order in Council.
    It is true that in Northern Rhodesia there is a retrospective provision which contains the phrase, "imprisonment (by whatever name called)." That is the provision for membership in the case of elected Members of the Northern Rhodesian Assembly. But so far as the African Members who are at present nominated in Northern Rhodesia are concerned, the bar to membership is imprisonment for a term exceeding 12 months, for an offence which is obviously twice as grave as that contemplated in this particular provision.
    If the people are putting up anybody for candidature they will find that the conditions for membership of the Federal Legislature are far more restrictive than the ones to which they have already been subject in Northern Rhodesia. It is because of these very serious doubts in our minds that we propose, in this new Clause, that the conditions of disqualification for the Federal Legislature shall be no more severe than those which apply to Members of the House of Commons. That seems to us to be the best kind of safeguard which we can offer to members of the Legislature in the Federal Assembly.
    2038
    What happens in the territorial Legislatures remains a matter for the territorial Governments, but I think that it is really for us in this House, in assenting to a scheme of this kind, to consider very carefully what we are doing.
    I am fortified in this opinion by referring to the Southern Rhodesian provisions of 1923, when Southern Rhodesia became a partially self-governing country, in which they state that the privileges of members of their Legislature were to be defined by the Legislature,
    "but provided no such privileges, amenities or powers shall exceed those for the time being held, enjoyed and exercised by the Commons House of Parliament of the United Kingdom."
    It seems to me that if the privileges should not be greater than those of the Commons House of Parliament in the United Kingdom then the disabilities should not be greater either.
    For these reasons, I make a most sincere appeal to Her Majesty's Government to look once again at what is included in the federal scheme and ask themselves whether they are not, in the provisions as here laid down, in fact differentiating between the African representative members and the ordinary elected members. I ask the Government most sincerely to reconsider this proposal in the federal scheme and to consult, if need be, with the other Governments concerned, and put to them the points which we have raised, because I believe that if their intention is sincere they will be able to get agreement on this matter.
    Mr. Hopkinson: This is a very complicated issue, but I hope to persuade the hon. Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) and her hon. Friends that in fact the fears which they have expressed in regard to differentiation against the Africans or against the Europeans representing the Africans do not exist.
    The position as regards the first election to be held under the Federal Constitution is that elected members, that is to say, all the ordinary members of the Federal Assembly from Southern Rhodesia and Northern Rhodesia, other than the three specially elected members from Southern Rhodesia and the two specially elected members from Northern Rhodesia, will be subject to the existing disqualifications in the respective laws of the two Territories.

    2039
    Under paragraph 19 of the scheme, the Governor-General will enact similar disqualifications for elected members from Nyasaland. So there remain the specially elected European member for Southern Rhodesia and the six specially elected African members from the three Territories—two from each Territory. All these are to be elected for the first Parliament in accordance with regulations made by each of the Governors of the three Territories.
    Since no electoral law exists which can be adapted to provide for the election of specially elected members, it was found necessary to set out the qualifications and disqualifications in paragraph 22 of the scheme—the paragraph to which the hon. Lady has referred. These qualifications and disqualifications are similar and almost identical with those which now exist under Northern Rhodesian law. They are in fact the standard of qualification under the Northern Rhodesian electoral law which was introduced, unless I am mistaken, by the late Government. It was certainly not changed during that time, and I believe it was actually introduced during the time of the late Government. The matter is certainly complicated, but I do not believe that any discrimination exists.
    10.0 p.m.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Do I gather that the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the law came into existence for the first time after 1945?
    Mr. Hopkinson: I believe this one in Northern Rhodesia did when the Constitution was revised, but I may be wrong and I will not press the point.
    Mrs. White: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that they are the same? If he studied the matter he would realise that the Northern Rhodesian law provided that the Governor in Council might in a certain case remove such disqualification. There is no such provision in the federal scheme.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Perhaps I might pass to the two points on which the hon. Lady criticised the new disqualifications. Paragraph 22 (1) (b) states that no person will be qualified to be elected who holds or is acting in any office of emolument under the Crown. I am obliged to the hon. Lady for raising the point
    2040
    and should like to tell the Committee now that the Order in Council will provide that the office of a Federal Minister will not be regarded as an office of emolument under the Crown.
    The hon. Lady raised two points about paragraph 22 (1) (d). She first drew attention to the fact that detention for five years might be regarded as equivalent to serving a sentence for five years. I am glad to be able to assure her that that is not the case and that ordinary detention such as she described in Kenya would not constitute a sentence of five years for this scheme.
    Mr. Hale: The period was six months.
    Mr. Hopkinson: The period of operation was five years. The hon. Lady also criticised the fact that six months was fixed as the period of the sentence.
    Mr. Bing: If someone like the son of the late Governor-General of South Africa indulged in what I hope all hon. Members of this House would do if they were in a similar position, resistance to the iniquitous legislation in South Africa, and suffered a term of imprisonment, would he be prevented from holding office?
    Mr. Sorensen: Would not Nkrumah have been disqualified?
    Mr. Hopkinson: He would not have been disqualified in Northern Rhodesia.
    The hon. Lady contrasted a period of six months imprisonment in regard to these regulations with the period of the sentence for hard labour in the Southern Rhodesian Act. As I said before, we had to follow one of the schemes, and we followed the usual scheme in the Colonies, the one in existence in Northern Rhodesia under which the ordinary members for Northern Rhodesia will be elected when the time comes. It has to be remembered that ultimately there will have to be an electoral law to cover the whole Federation.
    Mr. Fenner Brockway: Would not this provision have kept Nehru and half the Cabinet of the first independent Government of India outside the Indian Legislative Assembly? Would it not have kept Dr. Kwame Nkrumah out of the premiership of the Gold Coast? Would it not have kept out of office nearly every African who has been struggling for the freedom of his territory?
    Mr. Hopkinson: If the hon. Member will let me continue, the Constitution of the Gold Coast and this Constitution provide that a free pardon may be given, in which case the person in question is eligible for election. That is exactly what happened in the case of Dr. Nkrumah.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Let us take the case of South Africa, and the case of one of these political Acts to which we object. Let us take the case of a person convicted under one of these Acts and sent to prison for more than six months. First, what is the justification for subjecting that person at any stage at all to the ignominy of being debarred from qualification under the scheme? Secondly, if a free pardon is necessary and is to be exercisable on advice, on whose advice will it be exerciseable? Will it be exerciseable on advice sent up from the Prime Minister of South Africa or will it be on entirely independent action by the Minister of Commonwealth Relations in this country and flatly contradictory to the wishes of the Prime Minister of South Africa?
    Mr. Hopkinson: We are not discussing South Africa. A free pardon would certainly not be given, as far as I have studied this particular question, except on the recommendation of the Governor-General of the new federation.
    Mr. Griffiths: The case of Dr. Nkrumah has been referred to. May I ask the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs a further question on that? We have already discussed what Minister will be responsible for this Federal Government. The free pardon procedure in the Gold Coast, in Northern Rhodesia and in Nyasaland is now in the exercise and discretion of the Governor-General acting through the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Would that be the position under a federal scheme?
    Mr. Hopkinson: As I understand this provision, the question of a pardon would be under the responsibility of the Governor-General of South Africa.
    Mr. Bing: Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me to put a question? It is very important. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes.
    Mr. Hopkinson: No. In the case of a man who has been convicted in South
    2042
    Africa the pardon would have to be given by the Governor-General of South Africa. That is perfectly clear and that applies to any number of British Colonial Territories. It is precisely the same provision.
    Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Does that not make it clear that the Government's proposal is farcical and unjust?
    Mr. Hopkinson: The hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East suggested that this might be got over by assimilating the procedure on the qualification or disqualification of Members to the House of Commons. We looked at that and found that the House of Commons Regulations depend partly on common law and partly on different statutes. They are extremely lengthy and a lot of the provisions are quite unsuitable for application to Colonial Territories. The present provisions which are proposed for the Federal Assembly are those which are already in use and are well understood in Central Africa. This applies in particular to the provisions about the specially elected European or African member being obliged to vacate his seat if sentenced to a term of imprisonment exceeding six months.
    Mr. Hale: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying—because I cannot believe him—that if Doctor Nkrumah had been convicted and sentenced to six months in South Africa he would never have become Prime Minister in West Africa?
    Mr. Bing: Yes, that is what the right hon. Gentleman is saying.
    Mr. Hopkinson: May I be allowed to proceed because I think this is satisfactory. Any federal law which seeks to alter this qualification in any way will have to be reserved for the Secretary of State's approval. In due course when the time comes to bring forward an electoral law there will be an opportunity for assimilating the arrangements for the ordinary members with those of the specially allocated members and European members. I am quite satisfied that the present provisions, together with future adaptations which may be necessary later, will protect the interests of Africans just as effectively or more effectively than by applying the Regulations for election to the House of Commons as suggested in the new Clause.
    Mr. Bing: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, will he answer this question which has already been addressed to him: If Dr. Nkrumah, as he undoubtedly would have done if he had been in South Africa, had protested against the ridiculous, offensive and disgraceful laws there, would he have been allowed to become the Prime Minister of West Africa?
    Mr. Hopkinson: That is a purely hypothetical case which affects not Central African Federation but the Gold Coast.
    Sir F. Soskice: Time is pressing and I do not think that the answer given by the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs will
    have satisfied my hon. Friends, but since obviously they will not get a better answer, I would advise them to register their discontent by taking this matter into the Division Lobby.
    Mr. Dugdale: I only rise to say that in common with many other hon. Members I would have liked to support my hon. Friend, but owing to the fact that the Government have imposed what virtually amounts to a Guillotine, it is impossible for us to do so.
    Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 165; Noes, 188.

    Division No. 203.]

    AYES

    [10.13 p.m.

    Adams, Richard

    Hannan, W.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Albu, A. H.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Reeves, J.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Hastings, S.

    Rhodes, H.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Richards, R.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Holman, P.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Baird, J.

    Houghton, Douglas

    Royle, C.

    Bartley, P.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Shackleton, E. A. A

    Beattie, J.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Short, E. W.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Blackburn, F.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Boardman, H.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Bowles, F. G.

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Keenan, W.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Brockway, A. F.

    Kenyon, C.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Sparks, J. A.

    Burke, W. A.

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Lewis, Arthur

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Castle Mrs. B. A.

    Logan, D. G.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E

    Champion, A. J.

    MacColl, J. E.

    Swingler, S. T.

    Collick, P. H.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    McLeavy, F

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Cove, W. G.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Grossman, R. H. S.

    Mason, Roy

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Deer, G.

    Monslow, W.

    Thornton, E.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Moody, A. S.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Morley, R.

    Viant, S. P.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Weitzman, D.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Mort, D. L.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Moyle, A.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Mulley, F. W

    While, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Finch, H. J.

    Murray, J. D.

    While, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Nally, W.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Follick, M.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Wigg, George

    Foot, M. M.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J

    Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Orbach, M.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Padley, W. E

    Willey, F. T

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

    Paget, R. T.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Glanville, James

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Williams, Ronald, (Wigan)

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

    Grey, C. F.

    Pannell, Charles

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Parker, J.

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Paton, J.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Hale, Leslie

    Pearson, A.

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Peart, T. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Mr. Popplewell and

    Mr. Kenneth Robinson.

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Partridge, E.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Hay, John

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Heath, Edward

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Banks, Col. C.

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Barber, Anthony

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Barlow, Sir John

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Profumo, J. D.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Black, C. W.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Redmayne, M.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Horobin, I. M.

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Braine, B. R.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Russell, R. S.

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

    Scott, R. Donald

    Billiard, D. G.

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Shepherd, William

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Jennings, R.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Speir, R. M.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

    Carr, Robert

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Kaberry, D.

    Stevens, G. P.

    Channon, H.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Storey, S.

    Colegate, W. A.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Summers, G. S.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Crouch, R. F.

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Deedes, W. F.

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Turton, R. H.

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Fell, A.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Walker-Smith, D. C

    Fisher, Nigel

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

    Foster, John

    Marples, A. E.

    Wellwood, W.

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Gammans, L. D.

    Mellor, Sir John

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Godber, J. B.

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Wills, G.

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Gower, H. R.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    York, C.

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Mr. Srudholme and Mr. Oakshott.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Bill reported, without Amendment.
    10.20 p.m.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    I shall have some difficulty in keeping in order upon the Third Reading after such an extensive discussion in Committee, but whatever may be the differences which divide us upon the subject of Central African Federation it
    2046
    can at least be said that the Bill has not been passed without due discussion. On no less than 11 occasions has the House been asked to consider the matter. Owing to the limitations under which the Government are obliged to act during the Committee stage, much of the Committee stage has been, I think desirably, of the nature of a Second Reading debate, and I do not propose, therefore, to detain the House for more than a few minutes on Third Reading.

    2047
    I wish to say what I have said before—that the discussions which have taken place on these 11 separate occasions have been valuable and of benefit to Her Majesty's Government. Many of the extra safeguards which have been introduced have been due to the suggestions made from both sides of the House. This is the last occasion on which we shall see the legislation before the debate on the Order in Council, and if I detain the House at all I ask to be excused upon the grounds that I have been heavily under fire from both below the Gangway and above the Gangway. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), rather like a modern detergent, whipped himself into a lather earlier this afternoon.
    Mr. Jack Jones: He could never wash the right hon. Gentleman white.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I have been heavily under fire from both below and above the Gangway. I have been patronised by the "Manchester Guardian" and lectured by "The Times." Under this three-pronged attack I cannot remain entirely silent on this last occasion, but I will confine myself to saying that in Central Africa we are to try an experiment to see whether the forces released, the pent-up pressures, can be harnessed and directed towards the good of all these races or whether Africa is to sink back because the Continent is unable to absorb without convulsion the new knowledge which the modern world has brought to it through its new communications.
    While we have finished with the Bill, we have not finished with our responsibilities. We still retain, above all, in respect of the daily life of the African, a liability, particularly towards the two Northern Territories, which Federation will not alter. The success of federation will depend, like the success of Government everywhere, upon the officer in the field, whether he is a European or an African, who has to explain and sometimes to enforce the law.
    Following the wise and statesmanlike speech which the Leader of the Opposition made, I hope very much that all parties in the House, when Federation becomes law, will combine on broad, humane and liberal lines to make Federa-
    2048
    tion an example of how this great problem of 20th century Africa should be handled and solved. I appeal with every force I can command to all those who have to work it and make it live in the Territories themselves to face the challenge and make this one more monument to the British genius for government combined with the British love and respect for freedom and for the dignity and the rights of individual man.
    10.25 p.m.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: It is true that we have discussed this matter on numerous occasions, but we have never been called upon to make such a momentous decision about any of the Commonwealth Territories as we are being asked to do about Africa, and at a time when it is troubling the conscience of every hon. Member in this country.
    Those of us who attended the Committee stage feel that we had to deal with some of the Amendments in a period of time completely inadequate. I asked the Leader of the House for another day. We were told that it was not possible for us to have it. I did not propose to sit late the other night to discuss, in a thinly-attended House, matters of such very great importance.
    There will be one other occasion on which we shall require a full day—that will be essential—when we shall discuss the Motion for an Order in Council. Hon. Members opposite sometimes say we are anti-settler, or anti-European. We are not anti-anything. We recognise that we have a special responsibility for the Colonies and we recognise the need for constant vigilance.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies has referred to the criticisms which have been made. They have been criticisms of himself, of Her Majesty's Government and of the Europeans in Central Africa. We speak of partnership. It is time we gave tangible proof of what we mean. Between now and the occasion when we debate the approval of the Order in Council there will be time to show tangible proof that when we speak of partnership we mean partnership and not domination.
    From the outset of the discussions, from the draft scheme to this last scheme we have taken the view that the economic effects are conditional on the consent of

    2049
    the people. Because that consent has not been given, and for the additional reason that we think essential safeguards are weakened in a scheme of this kind, we oppose it, and I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to register their protest
    by voting against the Third Reading tonight.
    Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    The House divided: Ayes, 188; Noes, 165.

    Division No. 204.]

    AYES

    [10.30 p.m.

    Aitken, W. T.

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Partridge, E.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Hay, John

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Heath, Edward

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Banks, Col. C.

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Barber, Anthony

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Barlow, Sir John

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. C. L.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Profumo, J. D.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Black, C. W.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Redmayne, M.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Horobin, I. M.

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Braine, B. R.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.)

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Hulbert, Wing. Cdr. N. J.

    Russell, R. S.

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

    Scott, R. Donald

    Bullard, D. G.

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Shepherd, William

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Jennings, R.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Speir, R. M.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

    Carr, Robert

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Kaberry, D.

    Stevens, G. P.

    Channon, H.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Storey, S.

    Colegate, W. A.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Summers, G. S.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Crouch, R. F.

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Deedes, W. F.

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Turton, R. H.

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Fell, A.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Maitland, Cmdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Fisher, Nigel

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

    Foster, John

    Marples, A. E.

    Wellwood, W.

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Gammans, L. D.

    Mellor, Sir John

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Godber, J. B.

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Wills, G.

    Cough, C. F. H.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Gower, H. R.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    York, C.

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Mr. Studholme and Mr. Oakshott.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    NOES

    Adams, Richard

    Bartley, P.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Albu, A. H.

    Beattie, J.

    Boardman, H.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Bowles, F. G.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Blackburn, F.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Baird, J.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Royle, C.

    Burke, W. A.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Shackleton, E. A. A

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Keenan, W.

    Short, E. W.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Kenyon, C.

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Champion, A. J.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Simmons, C, J. (Brierley Hill)

    Collick, P. H.

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Lewis, Arthur

    Slater, Mrs. H, (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Cove, W. G.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Logan, D. G.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    MacColl, J. E.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    McLeavy, F.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Deer, G.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Mason, Roy

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Swingler, S. T.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Monslow, W.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Moody, A. S.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Fienburgh, W.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Finch, H. J.

    Morley, R.

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Follick, M.

    Mort, D. L.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Foot, M. M.

    Moyle, A.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Thornton, E.

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Murray, J. D.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Nally, W.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Gibson, C. W.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Viant, S. P.

    Glanville, James

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J

    Weitzman, D.

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Orbach, M.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Grey, C. F.

    Padley, W. E.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Paget, R. T.

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Wigg, George

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Panned, Charles

    Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Hannan, W.

    Parker, J.

    Willey, F. T.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Paton, J.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Pearson, A.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Hastings, S.

    Peart, T. F.

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

    Holman, P.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Reeves, J.

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Rhodes, H.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Richards, R.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Mr. Popplewell and

    Mr. Arthur Allen.

    Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

MILK AND RICE
10.37 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Willey: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Milk (Great Britain) Order, 1953 (S.I., 1953, No. 726), dated 28th April, 1953, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th April, be annulled.
It would probably meet the convenience of the House, Mr. Speaker, if we had a general discussion on the subject matter of this and the following two Prayers, one of which deals with milk and the other with rice. Then, if necessary, the Prayers could be put separately.
Mr. Speaker: Milk and rice go very well together, and if the House agrees I consent to that course.
Mr. Willey: We have debated rice on Prayers twice before. The facts are that under the present Government, in less than two years the price of rice has gone up by 5d., whereas under the Labour Government in 6½ years the price went up by 3d., although while we were in office the shortage of rice was much more acute than now.
The reason, presumably, for the measure of decontrol which this Order is proposing to enforce is that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister envisage further price increases, and they are going to do with regard to rice what they have done with regard to other foodstuffs, ran away from their responsibility, let the price go up, and leave the housewife to fend for herself. The Parliamentary Secretary can say, as he has said before, that it is not a very important matter for the British housewife, because we consume in this country only 100,000 tons out of the 4 million tons which go on the world market. If that is the Parliamentary Secretary's view, our representatives on the recent International Conference on Rice ought to have said that. They ought not to have discussed seriously, as they did, the necessity for countries resorting to alternatives for rice to relieve the world shortage. I have said before that the action which the Parliamentary Secretary has taken is antisocial. Indeed, it is disruptive of our influence in the Far East. I hope that Lord Beaverbrook will have something
2054
pungent to say about the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary.
To deal with milk: We have had these Prayers down for two previous occasions and the Parliamentary Secretary has probably rehearsed very carefully what he is going to say about milk. He has every need to do that. Those who brief him may well wish they could give him the sack. Alternatively, he may wish he could give them the sack. I do not know. On every occasion that the hon. Gentleman has spoken on the subject of milk, he has spoken a lot of nonsense. The first occasion on which we protested about price increase in milk, he said that consumption had risen, despite that increase; but, when we obtained the official figures which showed a decrease, his statement was shown to be absolute nonsense and was later admitted to be so by both the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary. On the second occasion, the Parliamentary Secretary admitted that there was a decrease in consumption. This was in July, but he claimed that in that month the decrease had been only 3 per cent. Then we got the official statistics, which showed that the decrease was, in fact, six times as great.
In December, knowing that the decrease was so obvious, that it was fatuous to rest on the defence which he had used before, the Parliamentary Secretary said. "Oh well, look at school milk." That, he said, had not had a price increase, but consumption had gone down. For the third time we had this inaccurate, irrelevant nonsense; for we found when we got the official figures that whereas the consumption of full-price liquid milk had gone down in 1952, consumption in the schools had risen in 1952 by 5 per cent. It was also argued that although there might have been a decrease in consumption of full-price milk, it had nothing to do with the retail price.
At that time, the Ministry's officials were negotiating with the dairymen on the subject of margins, and conceded to them that there had been a decrease of 2 per cent., and that that was due to the increase in retail prices. That was what the Ministry told the retailers, and I want to tell the hon. Gentleman that it is not good enough for one thing to be said in this House while another is told to the traders outside with whom the Ministry is negotiating. It is an affront to this House.

2055
Again, the hon. Gentleman told us that if one did not get milk because it was too expensive, one had milk in the form of butter and cheese; but he did not say that while milk consumption was going down, the cheese and butter rations were quite inadequate. Next, he resorted to the silliest comment of all when he told us that if there was no doubt that there was decreased consumption, nevertheless it was the wealthy people who were not drinking so much milk.
Mr. Harmar Nicholls: Quite right.
Mr. Willey: I am not surprised at that interruption, because the hon. Member would support his hon. Friend in any of the nonsense he talks. If the Parliamentary Secretary was right we would have heard from the Housewives' League, but in fact we have heard nothing about this from the Housewives' League. I had a communication from the League a few days ago drawing my attention to the fact that there was fluorine in the water supplies in Alberta, but there was nothing about milk in this country; and if that section of the people was being hard hit, the League would be the first to tell us about the fact.
In the first 12 months following the first price increase, the consumption of fresh milk fell by 30 million gallons; and the decrease has gone on during the last six months, over and above the 2 per cent. decrease to which I have referred. In December last we had a decrease of 1½ million gallons compared with the decreased consumption of 12 months before. In January the figure was 1,400,000 gallons, in February between 2 and 3 million, after making the adjustment—which the Ministry usually fails to make—for the fact that last year was a leap year, and in March 1,700,000 gallons. In April we had a reduction of 1,600,000 gallons. In other words, the reduction in consumption is now not 2 per cent.; it is between 3 per cent. and 4 per cent., compared with the consumption as it was under a Labour Government.
The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister have reversed the trend of increasing consumption and have reduced it today to less than it was in 1950. It is against this background that the Parlia-
2056
mentary Secretary and the Minister introduce this present Order which I say at once, does not substantially alter the milk prices as an average over the 12 months.
I have three complaints to make against this Order. First, why was it so suddenly announced? Why are the Ministry so flat-footed? Why cannot they consult the distributors? We have had this situation arising time after time. With every change that is made we get these complaints from the retailers, wholesalers and other distributors. Why should the Ministry do it when the distributors themselves say—and I quote from their official journal:
"All retailers view the introduction of these seasonal prices with the utmost dismay"?
Is that why the Ministry did not consult them?
The second complaint is that in spite of the impression created by the Minister and the Department, this Order does reduce the milk subsidy. That is a plain matter of arithmetic. It means a reduction of the milk subsidy, and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us what is the figure. It is a very back-handed way of reducing the subsidy. Why should he not come out in the open and tell us what he is doing? In fact, he has further slightly increased the cost of milk to the consumer over the present 12 months.
The retailers say—and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary, if he disagrees with it, to say why—that seasonal prices have always reacted disadvantageously on consumption. Let us take the position as it is. The National Farmers' Union have said, following the February Price Review, that the Government made it quite clear to the farmers that they did not want to increase milk consumption, because they did not want either to increase the subsidy or, alternatively, to increase retail prices. Is the policy of Her Majesty's Government based purely on financial considerations? As I have said time after time, the real culprit is not taking part in the debate today. It is the Treasury. Are the Treasury running the Ministry of Food now? Are they saying that for financial reasons the nutritional benefits of increased milk consumption are to be thrown overboard?
The next complaint is that the dairymen also suggest that this action

2057
is deliberately taken to decrease consumption. They say, in their official journal, the "Milk Industry":
"Another more potent reason may have been in the minds of the Ministry in making monthly variations in the price of milk. In July, 1952, when the retail price went to 6½d. per pint, that rise lowered the level of retail sales. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food a month or so later justified … the action taken by stating that consumption had apparently fallen by no more than 1·7 per cent. to 1·9 per cent. Most retailers would have placed the effect far greater for many were known to have suffered local variations of from 2 per cent. to 5 per cent.
That price rise, by its timing, did however have the effect of curtailing, at the very moment when the usual autumn shortage of supplies was about to assert itself, and the steep increase to 7d. per pint which is proposed for August, 1953 may be sure to so depress the level of sales this autumn that no shortage problem will occur and no schemes for the equitable distribution of milk will be necessary. Any short term blessing in this direction will be far outweighed by the long-term fall in demand for milk which will continue throughout the winter and into the spring of next year, even though the price will have reverted in November to its present standard."
They go on to estimate what the effect of this price of 7d. a pint will be and say:
"One must anticipate a further loss of throughput of not less than 2 per cent. on national totals with but little compensation for extra sales during May or June. The fact that retail prices will have reverted to 6½d. in November will not restore the position, for the public reaction to a jolt is swift and sudden, and the following rise is so slow that consumers grow accustomed to a lesser demand."
The price has obviously had and will have an effect on consumption. I would not argue, as the Parliamentary Secretary does, too much from current figures. But there has been no decrease in the consumption of milk this month, taking the figures we have been given, and perhaps the decrease of price this month has held the decrease in consumption. It is quite clear, if the retailers are right, that what the Parliamentary Secretary is seeking to do by this Order is to depress the consumption of milk later this year, and that by the autumn the consumption of milk will be running at 6 per cent. less than it was under a Labour Government. Does the hon. Gentleman regard that decrease as significant? The only ground left to him now is to say there is a decrease but that it is not significant.
2058
He should have the courage to tell the House what he thinks is a significant decrease. This is playing ducks and drakes with the nutritional standards of this country.
Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Poultry Order.
Mr. Willey: I am making a different point. If that point be in order, it will be made later. Both parties were committed to maintain those nutritional standards. If the Parliamentary Secretary was true to what he said in the past, he would resign his office and get out of it.
10.53 p.m.
Mr. James Hudson: I beg to second the Motion. [An HON. MEMBER: "Rum and milk."] I observe that hon. Members opposite who are interested in the matter seem to have reinforced themselves—I am not quite sure that the reinforcement has taken the form of the subject we are discussing. I have my doubts, but I do not believe it would be in order to say any more.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) that the milk supply and its increasing consumption from the point of view of public policy and public health is one of the important issues that the Government should always have clearly in their minds. I am not going into details of the increase, if the Parliamentary Secretary is going to prove that, or of the decrease in consumption, which I think my hon. Friend has proved. I am going to say that if there are to be any serious alterations in the price, any great alteration in the periods when price changes are made, or any inconveniences in the length of the periods, that can lead to a fall in the consumption of milk, then it is a very serious and wrong action to have taken.
I am arguing with the Parliamentary Secretary that at a time when milk consumption should increase in this country, as it is increasing in other countries, when we should be in a position to have per head of the population at least a consumption similar to that existing in America, there should be a much more careful appraisal of the problem facing us by the Government.
On the issue of milk for school children, about which there is a differ-

2059
ence of opinion between the Government and my hon. Friend, the figures in the Monthly Digest of Statistics show a remarkable fall in consumption. No matter who is right, the milk supplied through schools was never intended to be all the milk that children consumed; the scheme was intended to guarantee the absolutely necessary minimum for the developing health of the community.
I had hoped—I trust that the Parliamentary Secretary will agree with me—that the regular taking of milk by school children would lead to increased consumption of milk by the same children in their homes. But the disturbance in the price is bound to have an influence on family budgets, and there will be an unwillingness, and even an inabilility, in present circumstances to buy the milk for home consumption which ought to be bought for the general needs of the community. After the short period of May and June, the price is again to rise for the short period of July.
There are hon. Members opposite representing agricultural interests who will share my concern about the effect on milk producers of continual price increases. However, at the moment I base my case upon the needs of the children in particular and, ultimately, the general needs of public health. It is from those points of view that I criticise the action of the Government.
I sympathise with the desire of hon. Members to end these proceedings, and I shall not make a long speech. Hon. Members opposite are listening to me quietly, and if they continue to do so I shall not be long upon the subject of rice. Rice puddings are not the perfect diet for English children when the children of the Far East go hungry for need of rice. [Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite express derision, forgetting the Colombo Plan, the Convention of Bangkok and the statements made by our own representatives about the need for Western countries, in these days of world shortage of the commodity, to find an effective substitute for rice. Although our consumption of rice may be small, the psychological effect would be very great if this country—after all, the taste of our children for rice is a passing one—were consuming nothing which is
2060
necessary to meet the truly terrible need which exists so widely in the East.
My objection to the freeing of rice is that it will result in a greater consumption in this country when there is such a scarcity of this commodity in the East. We need not absolutely keep to rice and the rice puddings which have been so enthusiastically spoken of this evening. Like most hon. Members opposite, I started in my early days with the rice pudding. I also had a good mother who knew how to cook—[An HON. MEMBER: "Apple pies?"] No, instead of making apple pies she gave us the fruit in its natural state, and used the warm ovens for barley pudding.
Mr. H. Nicholls: That was from the brewers.
Mr. Hudson: Hon. Members opposite always like to——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): As I understand it, these Regulations relate to the restrictions on the purchase of rice and of price control.
Mr. Hudson: It was price control with which I was concerned. Any alteration in price control is intended to make it easier for more rice to be obtained for this country. I found out, for example, that in Woolwich Co-operative Society, of which I am a member—I am willing to give the House the benefit of my practical experience—the price of rice is 1s. 1d., which is an average for the country, but that if it is attractively wrapped and in cartons suitably arranged, the price is 1s. 5d. a lb. That is also the price with private traders.
People here are willing to buy rice at this price although there is a great shortage of this commodity among the great mass of the people in the Far East. I say that unless there is some sense of responsibility shown by the Government towards the people of the Far East, there will be a greater demand for rice here which will increase consumption, and will draw these supplies from the stocks available for feeding the people in the East. It is against that sort of thing that I am protesting, and I say that in order to prevent that disastrous state of affairs happening we should offer the people something else as a substitute. That is what I want to be allowed to put before the House on this Motion. I was trying to tell the House when you interrupted

2061
me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that barley can sell at 8d. a lb. and is an alternative to rice pudding.
Barley, which is offered at 8d. a lb. and can be used for puddings as palatable as those made with rice, for which now a much higher price is threatened, ought to be used in this way, and there ought not to be waste in the interest of those who make profits out of barley when so many children are in need of the rice in other countries. That is the most important argument in this matter, and although there are other issues to be dealt with in regard to milk and rice, I content myself with these general statements about the position which faces us.
A humble man who provides me with what I regard as necessary for my welfare, namely, my milk roundsman, complains that as a result of this Order, and as a result of the imposition of higher prices, on the first day of the month every milk roundsman will be confronted with a new problem of calculation. This happens every time the prices are changed. I am told that in the North of England, where people buy milk tokens before the actual purchase of the milk, there will be a difficult and serious problem. I submit that that is one of the defects of this Order which the Minister ought to take into account.
11.7 p.m.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: I want to endorse the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson). Although they have not been met with the sympathy and understanding which they deserve by hon. Members opposite, they are nevertheless important, and some day must be considered by this country and the rest of the European nations to which he referred. [Interruption.] Everybody in this House knows that the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is not a teetotaller or he would not conduct himself as he does.
The Parliamentary Secretary, the Government, and everyone who has the health of the country at heart must be concerned about the substantial drop in consumption of liquid milk. Paragraph 10 of the Order reads:
"No person shall buy or sell any milk in a bottle of a capacity of one-third of a pint except to, or for the purpose of resale to, any person having the management of any school or any person acting under his
2062
authority, for consumption as a beverage by the pupils of that school."
We have just had the Report of the Committee on Estimates, and from that Report it is obvious that school places are not available for many children for whom there ought to be places. If there were school places available for these children they would get the one-third of a pint of milk to which they are entitled. Because there are no school places they are denied that——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member is now referring to something not covered by the Order.
Mr. Fernyhough: This Order deals with those entitled to a one-third pint bottle of milk. According to the law every child of five years of age is entitled to that at school. But because there are not sufficient school places many children are not getting that. I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider providing that cheap milk for the children for whom there are not school places. They are entitled to it, and they receive it at the cheap rate while they are under five. If that facility could be extended, it would satisfy me.
11.12 p.m.
Sir Herbert Williams: I was interested in the last remarks of the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough). If there is any shortage of school places it is because of plans made 18 months ago——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order.
Sir H. Williams: I am merely following the point made by the hon. Member for Jarrow.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I called the hon. Member for Jarrow to order on that very point.
Sir H. Williams: I was only covering the point up to the time when he was called to order. I wish to know whether the hon. Member for Jarrow can give any example of what he says has in fact happened?
Mr. Fernyhough: Yes, there are something like——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not think this argument can be carried on.
Sir H. Williams: I am sorry I am not permitted to follow the hon. Member.

2063
It is obvious that this paragraph is to prevent the improper sale of milk supplied for the consumption of school children. That is the sole purpose of it, and anyone knows——
Mr. Willey: No. It has nothing to do with that.
Sir H. Williams: It reads:
"No person shall sell or buy any milk in a bottle of a capacity of one-third of a pint except to, or for the purpose of resale to, any person having the management of any school or any person acting under his authority, for consumption as a beverage by the pupils of that school."
Mr. Willey: If I may help the hon. Gentleman. But for this provision it would be an offence under the Weights and Measures Act to sell one-third pints. It allows one-third pints to be sold and prescribes the conditions under which they may be sold.
Sir H. Williams: It has precisely the same effect. Bottles containing one-third of a pint of milk are supplied for a specific purpose, and this prohibits their sale for other purposes. This prohibits a commercial transaction in one-third pints of milk. The hon. Member for Jarrow must agree that that is a desirable precaution to take. His speech has no relevance to the purpose of the paragraph on which he based his remarks. I should not have intervened in this debate had the hon. Member not made so many misleading statements.
11.14 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): If I deal first with the points on the rice Order made by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) it is because he put his points with sincerity as well as force, unlike the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), who thought on this, as on other occasions, that abuse was a good substitute for effective argument.
If we shared the fears of the hon. Gentleman about the effect on Eastern countries of the de-control of rice, then we should not proceed to its de-control. The hon. Gentleman will recall that he told the House that he had examined the figures of the world production of rice. He said that out of the 100 million tons produced, 4 million tons goes for export,
2064
Out of some 80,000 tons required to meet our own demands, roughly 60,000 tons are required for human consumption in the way he described and the remaining 20,000 tons for use in industry for the extraction of starch and the making of certain powders.
As we see the position today, the consumption of rice in this country will not rise as a result of de-control. I give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that should it rise above the present level steps will be taken under the import licence procedure to see that it remains at approximately the level of consumption which obtains today. I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that assurance, because I share his fear, not that our increased consumption could be a substantial subtraction from world supplies, but a substantial——
Mr. Willey: Price.
Dr. Hill: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me an opportunity of replying to the points put by his hon. Friends, I will deal with the question of price in a moment.
The fall in the consumption of rice since pre-war days has been in the industrial field. I ought also to add that the export of rice from Burma takes place under an export control system tightly administered, and there would be no guarantee, even if we denied ourselves rice altogether, that our supplies would go to the countries in greatest need of them.
The hon. Member for Sunderland, North said that the reason for this decontrol was because we anticipated further increases in the price of rice. That is the opposite of the truth. We do not anticipate increases in the price of rice.
Mr. Willey: Just like bananas.
Dr. Hill: We have reason to believe that the price of rice well may fall, because its price is being sustained at a high level by the exporting countries.
Mr. Willey: What an argument.
Dr. Hill: If the hon. Gentleman cannot listen to the replies being given, he might at least give his hon. Friend that opportunity.
Now I come to the milk story. It has been decided that it would be wise to sell milk cheaper when it is plentiful and

2065
when it is cheaper to produce. Accordingly, a schedule of prices has been arranged making milk cheaper in those seasons when it is flush and cheaper to produce, and dearer in the scarce periods of the year, without reducing the subsidy on milk. In fact, the estimate of the subsidy for the current financial year is £87·5 million as compared——
Mr. Willey: Including welfare milk.
Dr. Hill: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will exercise a little courtesy even if he cannot exercise patience and listen to the replies.
The subsidy figure this year is estimated at £87·5 million as compared with £85·6 million last year. As a matter of fact the subsidy this year will be approximately £2 million higher than for the previous year. Is there anything unreasonable in having a schedule of prices that makes milk cheaper to the public when it is in plentiful supply and cheaper to produce? It seems a reasonable course. If it is unreasonable, why did not the hon. Gentleman take steps to bring to an end the system of seasonal prices which obtained while he was in office? Between 1942 and 1951, the system operated in Northern Ireland. What is more, that system operated before the war.
Is it successful? The hon. Gentleman put down a Question to my right hon. and gallant Friend and got an answer. He knows that in fact in May of this year, the first month of the lower price, the consumption of milk was raised. He quotes the retailers to suggest that variations in price make no difference, and in another breath he tells the House that it is the factor of price only which has resulted in the fall in the consumption of milk. If he believes that, why did he not tell the House that the consumption of milk fell in this country between 1945 and 1947, and fell substantially? It fell more in that period than it has fallen in the past year. This demonstrates that price is but one of the factors concerned.
Mr. J. Hudson: Would the hon. Gentleman deal, on this question of the level of prices, with the point that I tried to make, perhaps rather ineffectively, that the lower price is only for a very short period of two months, May and June, then there is an intermediate price for a shorter period of only one month,
2066
and then we go on to the top price for all grades of milk for several months in the winter?
Dr. Hill: The hon. Gentleman may recall that I said there were twin purposes, one to cheapen the price when milk is flush, and the other to keep within the present level of subsidy. It therefore follows that, in the flush period of greater supply of milk, the price reduction must necessarily be made for a shorter time than the period of scarcity and higher prices, if the subsidy level is to be sustained.
Now for the break-up of these figures. I have the figures for milk for the full financial year, to 31st March, 1953. The figures quoted by the Chairman of the Milk Marketing Board are not wholly accurate because he has omitted to point out that the 1951–52 period was a year without an Easter and was a leap year and that certain other corrections have to be made. Indeed, the fall in milk consumption, after the corrections have been made, and after allowing for the fall in the number of beneficiaries for welfare milk, is of the order of 1½ per cent. per head.
Let us look at what has happened under the various headings. The drop in the consumption of ordinary milk—not school nor welfare milk—in the United Kingdom is 2·2 per cent. There is no change in the school milk total consumption, but allowing for the rise in school population between the two years, the fall in consumption per head of those taking school milk is about 3 per cent. I am recording this fact and I, like the hon. Gentleman, deplore it. My only comment is that those who allege that price is the only factor in the consumption of milk must reckon with the fact that school milk is free and that the consumption per head of the beneficiaries has gone down by 3 per cent. That leads us into another field, but I want fairly to record the fact and to deplore it.
Mr. Fernyhough: Would the hon. Gentleman make inquiries, as there are times when children who want milk find that there is not a sufficient supply to allow every child in the school to have a third of a pint?
Dr. Hill: If the hon. Member will permit me in not pursuing him, might I,

2067
however, add that I am particularly interested in this problem? In the case of welfare milk, there has been a drop of 2·7 per cent. and, on the face of it, that is wrong. But if one does the honest thing and calculates the change in the number of beneficiaries, partly due to the fall in the birth rate, one finds that there has not been a fall, but that the figure per beneficiary is up by 2·75 per cent.
The House does not need to be reminded of what happens to the surplus milk. In May of this year, despite the fact that consumption of milk was equal to that of May last year, there was a greater quantity—in fact, a record amount—available for manufacturing purposes. Indeed, that available milk was one of the factors which made possible the extension of the higher rate of cheese ration. So, on the general topic, we have taken a sensible course of reducing the price of milk when it is flush but re-arranging the price structure for the year so as to keep the subsidy roughly at its present level.
Milk not consumed in liquid form is all consumed in some other form and, I might add, in forms which some people prefer, namely, as butter, cheese, dried milk, or tinned milk. But the fact is that liquid consumption is 60 per cent. above the pre-war level. Lest it be thought that this phenomenon occurred, as has been suggested today, during a Socialist Administration, let us remember that school milk was introduced in 1934, and welfare milk in 1940. Let us remember that the years of biggest increases were 1940, 1941, and 1942 and that, indeed, the bulk of the increase took place before 1945. For two years after 1945 the consumption of milk went down, and I suggest that that fall, associated no doubt with lower production, does not make it reasonable to claim that price, and price alone, is responsible for lower consumption.
I do appreciate the roundsman's difficulties in his arithmetic for the week in which the change occurs. Our accounting period for other purposes is the calendar month, but I will give the assurance that if experience suggests that seasonal prices are an advantageous way of securing the consumption of the milk available, I will do my utmost to see that this obvious inconvenience to the
2068
roundsman, if not wholly avoided, is minimised.
So, in conclusion, I would point out to the hon. Gentleman who moved this Prayer, that he has not been praying on a number of fruitful food topics which have been before the people in recent months. He has not put down a Prayer about the de-rationing of sweets, or the increased rations of butter, cheese, and margarine, or the increased——
Mr. Willey: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I understand the rules of order, we are strictly confined to the subject matter of this Prayer. Surely this is a matter with which the Parliamentary Secretary ought to be conversant by now?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is perfectly right, but it is customary to allow a little latitude in a peroration.
Dr. Hill: I can appreciate the hon. Member's discomfort at the references I have made. Bearing in mind what he has not done in the field of meat, I suggest that he shares with St. Paul the view he expressed in Corinthians:
"I have fed you with milk and not with meat."
I invite the House to reject these Motions. The rice de-control makes no difference to price; it is an unnecessary control and to abolish it saves a relatively small sum of money—perhaps between £8,000 and £12,000 a year. It is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to remove any control which is unnecessary, and this is one of them.
For the rest, by this new milk system we seek to make milk cheap when it is flush and to sell increasing quantities of it, and that has been proved by the experience of May this year. The hon. Gentleman has, as usual, the thinnest of cases, and the admixture of abuse is but a confession of the thinness of the case he has presented to the House.
Question put, and negatived.

ADJOURNMENT
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Sir H. Butcher.]
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes to Twelve o'clock

  MALAYAN-SIAMESE BORDER TERRORISTS
  MALAYAN-SIAMESE BORDER TERRORISTS
  NIGERIAN CONSTITUTION
  NIGERIAN CONSTITUTION
EAST AFRICA
  Groundnuts Scheme
  Groundnuts Scheme
  East African Industries Limited
  East African Industries Limited
  SHIPBUILDING
  SHIPBUILDING
ROYAL NAVY
  Tugs (Life-Saving Equipment)
  Tugs (Life-Saving Equipment)
  Queen Alexandra's Nursing Service (Coronation Procession)
  Queen Alexandra's Nursing Service (Coronation Procession)
  Air Station, Brawdy (Pig Swill)
  Air Station, Brawdy (Pig Swill)
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (HESTON AND ISLEWORTH)
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (HESTON AND ISLEWORTH)
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Commercial Broadcasting (Licence Applications)
  Commercial Broadcasting (Licence Applications)
  Capital Development
  Capital Development
  Advisory Committee Report
  Advisory Committee Report
  Norfolk
  Norfolk
  Northern Highlands
  Northern Highlands
  Licences
  Licences
  Wales
  Wales
POST OFFICE
  Trade Unions
  Trade Unions
  Savings Certificates
  Savings Certificates
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Coronation Review
  Coronation Review
  Sewage Disposal Works, Wethersfield
  Sewage Disposal Works, Wethersfield
  Maintenance Funds, Cheshire
  Maintenance Funds, Cheshire
  AIRCRAFT (PROPERTY DAMAGE)
  AIRCRAFT (PROPERTY DAMAGE)
ROADS
  Accidents
  Accidents
  Headlight Dazzle
  Headlight Dazzle
AGRICULTURE
  Rural Electrification, Eastern Area
  Rural Electrification, Eastern Area
  Attested Cattle
  Attested Cattle
  HIGHWAY DEPOT, NEWPORT
  HIGHWAY DEPOT, NEWPORT
  "DIPLOMATIC TWILIGHT"
  "DIPLOMATIC TWILIGHT"
  CEREALS AND FEEDINGSTUFFS (DECONTROL)
  CEREALS AND FEEDINGSTUFFS (DECONTROL)
  MIDLAND HOSPITALS (NURSES)
  MIDLAND HOSPITALS (NURSES)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

LORD FITZWALTER
2.35 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): My Lords, I have to inform your Lordships that Her Majesty having been pleased to determine the abeyance existing in the Barony of FitzWalter in favour of Mr. FitzWalter Brook Plumptre, His Lordship stands at the Bar with his Writ of Summons. His Lordship is the nephew of Henry FitzWalter, Lord FitzWalter, in whose favour the abeyance then existing in the Barony was determined by His late Majesty King George V, and who took his seat in your Lordships' House on the 3rd December, 1924.
The Lord FitzWalter was then called in, and took and subscribed the Oath, pursuant to the Statute; and was placed on the Barons' Bench next below the Lord Hastings.

METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments; a further Amendment made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
TYNEMOUTH CORPORATION BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I have to inform your Lordships that we have to interrupt the Business a little after half past three o'clock as there are two Statements to be made—one by the noble Earl, Lord Munster, on Colonial Development and Welfare, and the other by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, on Germany.

NURSES AND ANTIBIOTICS
2.38 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Crook, I beg to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the number of nurses who have left their employment consequent upon allergic reaction to penicillin, and if so, what is the number.]
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, the number of nurses who have left their employment as a result of allergic reaction to penicillin is not known, but a recent sample investigation showed that in seventy local health authority areas, seventy-three nurses Lad developed sensitivity to penicillin, and that in seventy-six hospitals seven nurses had been similarly affected. Larger numbers (eighty-six in the local health authority areas and 102 in the hospitals) had been similarly affected by streptomycin. The Minister of Health's Standing Medical Advisory Committee has now advised the Minister on the precautions which should be taken by nurses and others when giving injections of antibiotics, and this advice is being issued by the Minister to local health authorities and others concerned as a matter of urgency.

EAST GERMAN DISTURBANCES
2.40 p.m.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether information is available on the numbers killed or executed during the recent protests in East Berlin and the Soviet Zone of Germany against Communist tyranny.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING): My Lords, no official figures have been published, and as these events took place within East Berlin and in the Soviet Zone it is unlikely that full and

1195
reliable information will become available. At least seven persons died in the Western sectors of the city after being brought in wounded from the Eastern sector. At least one German citizen has been executed in Berlin by the Soviet authorities under martial law, and there are unconfirmed reports of similar executions at many places in the Soviet Zone.
LORD VANSITTART: I thank the noble Marquess for his Reply. I quite appreciate the difficulty of getting accurate information.

NEW TOWNS
2.42 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN rose to call attention to the reports of the new towns development corporations for the year ended March 31, 1952; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name. As noble Lords will see, the Motion relates to the reports of the new towns development corporations for the year ended March 31, 1952. We are now in June, 1953, but the accounts are the latest that have been published. While, therefore, the Motion relates to those accounts, I hope your Lordships will allow me to take a somewhat broader view of the Motion and deal with the affairs of new towns generally. For the sake of convenience, the reports of the new towns development corporations have been incorporated in one volume. Under the New Towns Act, each development corporation is required to publish a report of its activities each year, and as a matter of convenience these reports are assembled by the Minister responsible and published in one volume. There are twelve development corporations functioning in England and Wales and two in Scotland, and this volume relates to the twelve development corporations functioning in England and Wales. Though it looks a rather formidable and forbidding document, I hope that your Lordships who have read it will have found it interesting and informative.
The New Towns Act was passed in 1946, and the first of the development corporations was set up in 1947. Under this Act we became committed to a very considerable expenditure of money. I believe that in connection with the fourteen
1196
new towns which are at present being erected, this country is committed to an expenditure of something like £250 million. I hasten to say that all Parties accepted the policy of the New Towns Act, and, I believe, still accept it; and only recently the present Minister came to Parliament and asked for sanction for the additional expenditure of £50 million. I mention these large sums because it is remarkable that, in spite of the large amount involved, and the great importance of these projects, which are novel and, I hope, imaginative, and which have aroused a great deal of interest throughout the world, the fact is that we have never discussed new towns in this House since the New Towns Act was passed. I think this is the first time we have discussed the principles of the New Towns Act. It is true that we had a short discussion on the measure for providing the further £50 million, but that was not regarded as an appropriate occasion for discussing the policy generally. Therefore, in spite of the paucity of speakers to-day—indeed there are no speakers from the Government side of the House, except Lord Mancroft—I feel that this subject is well worth while debating.
I should like first to remind the House of the purpose of the new towns. What was it that we sought to achieve by means of the New Towns Act? There were a variety of purposes; I will mention them briefly. First, there was the purpose of providing accommodation for those families which could not be re-housed when development of a built-up area took place, because of the congested nature of the existing development. In the case of London alone, it was estimated that there might be a million people who would have to be accommodated outside the London area when re-development took place. And the same applies to other congested areas like Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds, Glasgow, and so on. It was felt that it would be wrong to attempt to re-house such persons either by putting up large numbers of fiats inside the towns or by continued expansion of the existing towns. In many cases, the existing towns have expanded so far that it now takes one almost a day's journey to get away from the town itself. Anyone who has tried to get away from one of these large towns—I will not refer to London but such towns as Manchester, for example—will appreciate

1197
what I mean. It is a very long journey from the centre of Manchester to the countryside. The same applies to Birmingham, where the problem is rendered even more difficult by reason of the complication of one-way streets. And similar conditions exist in other towns.
As to London, in some directions the whole of the area between London and the sea is now completely built up. If you go by road to Southend-on-Sea—I do not know whether any of your Lordships ever have to make that journey—you find that along the South end road there is only about a mile of undeveloped land between London and the coast. In other directions the same thing is to be found. So it was felt that the only way to re-house either the growing populations of these towns or the existing populations for whom accommodation could not be found inside them was to build entirely new towns some distance away, which would be not dormitory towns but towns where people would live and work and enjoy their recreation. That was one of the purposes of building new towns. But there was another. In a number of cases industries are being set up in different parts of the country—for instance at Corby, in Northamptonshire, where you have an iron ore industry carried on by Messrs. Stewart & Lloyds, or Aycliffe in Durham, where a Royal Ordnance filling factory is now being used as a trading estate, or Cwmbran in Monmouth, near Newport, which is now largely an engineering site. In each of those cases the industry is there, but there is no accommodation, or quite insufficient accommodation, for the people working in those industries. In these cases, again, it was felt that something should be done in a proper, co-ordinated, planned, way, to provide new accommodation for the workers employed in those industries. So we have the new towns of Corby, Cwmbran, and Aycliffe, in Durham.
There is a third type of new town and that is the new town which is being provided in areas where the mining industry is carried on. Your Lordships will know that in a great many parts of this country, where intensive coalmining is taking place, the miners are housed in wholly unsatisfactory conditions. In many cases they have to live close to the pits, amidst the smoke, the grime, the noise and the dust arising from the mining operations.
1198
Their homes are situated in some of the most dreary conditions that could be imagined. It was felt that it would be a good thing if new towns could be built for the mine workers, and that these should be towns which would afford employment for the mine workers themselves and also attract additional industries for the families of the mine workers, for their daughters, and for those members of the population who, for one reason or another, were unable or unwilling to work in the pits. We have a number of examples of that kind of new town—one is Peterlee in Durham and Glenrinnes in Scotland. These are the types of new towns to which we are committed. There are fourteen towns in all and it is intended that ultimately they should house a population of something like 600,000 persons.
The reports which have been published for the period ended March 31, 1952, indicate the progress that has been made up to that date. If your Lordships have taken the trouble to read those reports, you will perhaps be somewhat disappointed at the slow progress which they record, but I think a certain amount of reflection will satisfy you that progress has not been so slow as it might appear. It is true that some corporations are publishing their fifth annual reports, but inevitably in projects of this kind it must take a considerable time before rapid development can take place. The site has to be designated: an inquiry has to be held to see whether the site designated is suitable or not; plans have to be prepared—and to prepare a plan for a town of 60,000 people is no mean task; the plans have to be published and opportunities given to those interested to mike any objections; there is usually a public inquiry and it is only after that—and these preliminary proceedings may take some considerable time—that the development corporation who are entrusted with the task of building the new town can set to work. Then they have to acquire the necessary land and plan for the making of roads and sewers. It is not until all these things are done that they can begin building operations. Up to the time when these reports were published the existing development corporations together had erected a total of some 12,000 houses—by no means an unsatisfactory contribution to the housing problem, and there is no reason why this

1199
number should not be increased as time goes on.
I believe that within the time that was contemplated—that is, some fifteen years from the creation of these new towns—most of them will have been substantially completed. I think it would be useful to examine the progress that has been made from the point of view of what was expected of the new towns. First of all, they were expected to be completely self-contained towns. To the extent that people living in new towns travelled backwards and forwards to the place from which they came originally, the new towns would be regarded as failing in their purpose. The intention is that people should find their employment, their recreation, their social activities, indeed, their whole life, within the new town itself. The results so far are somewhat mixed. Inevitably greater consideration has been given to the building of houses than to the building of other social and recreational facilities. There is a considerable shortage of buildings in the new towns for carrying on these activities. While I would pay my tribute to those already living in the new towns for the genius of improvisation they have shown in creating facilities for themselves without the necessary accommodation, I feel that much better results would have been achieved if the operations of the development corporations had not been restricted so far as communal buildings are concerned.
But I observe that in the case of one new town—Aycliffe, of whose corporation my noble friend Lord Beveridge is the very distinguished chairman, and which has a relatively small population—there are no fewer than thirty-five different clubs and organisations already in existence. Of course, that includes the two political Parties, but it also includes two darts clubs, two football clubs, a cricket club, a women's institute and other kinds of organisation, all of which are carrying on under considerable difficulties. If the Minister concerned could relax the present arrangements and allow the development corporations to build pari passu the necessary social buildings required, I am sure these new towns would develop much more satisfactorily.
In many cases there is a shortage of school accommodation. I think that the
1200
county councils who are responsible have done their best, and in all some twenty new schools have been built. Nevertheless, to a considerable extent the primary schools are overcrowded and the secondary schools are carrying on under considerable difficulties. I do not want to make a speech which might be regarded as even remotely political. I regard the scheme for the new towns as something which has been accepted by all Parties, and if I make a criticism, I should have made exactly the same criticism if my own Party had been responsible for their administration today. The fact remains that in many cases the new towns are desperately short of schools.
The question of education is a great problem, because in the nature of things the people who come to the new towns are younger members of the community with young children. The requirements of education to-day are far different from what they are going to be later on, when the families living in these new towns become older. Moreover, we have to provide accommodation for the products of the higher birthrate of 1944 and 1945, a phenomenon which is taking place all over the country—what is known as the "educational bulge." The child population of to-day has been abnormally increased and will be so for a number of years then it will decline, because the birthrate has declined since 1946–47 and has become very much what it was before the war. The problem is how to get over these intervening years. In spite of that, I feel there is room for a certain number of additional schools and I was glad to note that the other day the Minister of Education made a statement that a certain degree of priority would be given to schools in the new towns. Then there is the question of health facilities. There again, I feel that we are somewhat lacking, although I do not propose to dwell on that aspect of the matter because I understand my noble friend Lord Haden-Guest will be speaking about it.
I want to say a word or two about industry. The keystone of the success of these new towns is in the question whether the necessary amount and kind of industry will be provided. In some cases the industrial requirements are being reasonably well met. I would instance Crawley and Hemel Hempstead as two towns where

1201
there is a reasonable amount of industry. In the case of the new towns which were started to provide accommodation for existing industry, there is, of course, substantially no need for much new industry; but in the case of other new towns there is a shortage of the appropriate kind of industry, and I believe that more could be done in this direction. What is needed is more industry and a greater diversification. Take a new town like Corby, which is substantially a one-industry town and a heavy industry town at that: it is essential that industry should be found for those who are incapable, for physical or other reasons, of employment in heavy industry, and particularly for the young women who are living in the town and who have to travel considerable distances to surrounding towns like Kettering and Leicester to find work. There are the cases of the mining towns, Glenrinnes and Peterlee. They, again, need industry of a diversified kind to give the towns the necessary balance. Therefore, it is a matter of great regret that hitherto the Board of Trade have not been as sympathetic to the requirements of the new towns as they might have been.
Here I should like to say a few words about the general attitude of the Departments to the new towns. I have indicated that these new towns constitute a great project—great from the point of view of expense, but great, also, from the point of view of imagination, of doing something which is new and trying out an entirely different kind of development in this country. These are Government projects for which the Government, as a whole, are responsible. Nevertheless, one has formed the impression that the different Departments are not looking at these projects as national projects, but are looking at them purely from a departmental point of view. As a result there is a shortage of industry in certain towns. We find the Board of Trade refusing to give certificates; and we find the Ministry of Works refusing building licences for industry which is essential if the new towns are to function successfully. The Ministry of Transport have not always been as helpful as they might be. New roads are necessary, and these have not been facilitated as they could have been.
I want to mention one particular instance where I believe the Ministry of Transport are actually functioning in
1202
opposition to the interests of one of the new towns—namely, Crawley. Your Lordships will be aware of the project for building a new airfield at Gatwick as an alternative to Heathrow. I do not desire to enter into a discussion of the merits of that; it may well be a desirable project, and even a necessary one. But there is no doubt about one thing—namely, that to build a large international air station at Gatwick will have serious repercussions upon the welfare of Crawley. Many industrialists have been induced to go to Crawley in the belief that they were going to a quiet country town, away from the hustle and bustle of London, and that their business would thereby benefit. It will be a serious deterrent to any further industrialist if an international air station is located outside Crawley. I would ask—as I think was suggested in a leading article in The Times a few days ago—that before the Ministry commit themselves to this vast project there should be a full inquiry into all the repercussions of building this new airfield: the repercussions on the Government project of Crawley itself, as well as the advantages of the new air station. I cannot help feeling that at the moment the matter is being looked at purely from the point of view of civil aviation, and not from that of its repercussions on the new town of Crawley.
Agriculture is another case in point. Of necessity you cannot build a new town unless you use a certain amount of land, but the Ministry of Agriculture fight a "last ditch" battle over every acre of land that is necessary for the purpose of building a new town. The Government have committee themselves to these new towns, and it is no good the Ministry of Agriculture now being difficult. Having decided on the new towns, we must make the best of them; and any land necessary for the purpose of building them in the most satisfactory way should be readily available, without all the complications of inter-Departmental battles. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, when he comes to reply, will be able to give the House an assurance that this internecine strife will end, and that all the Government Departments will co-operate and work together to carry these great public enterprises through to a successful conclusion.
I should now like to say a few words about cost. I have mentioned the figure of what it is at the moment estimated the new towns will cost. It is unfortunate that ever since the New Towns Act was passed costs have been rising. Building costs have risen; interest rates have risen. And what would have been an expenditure, I am told, of something like £400,000 in 1948, to-day involves an expenditure of £500,000. Moreover, as a result of the increase in interest rates the annual charge on such expenditure would to-day be £21,500, as against £12,000 in 1948. Nobody can be held to be responsible for that, but it is a substantial increase in cost. It might be asked, therefore, whether to-day it is advisable to go on with this full project, or to go on with it to the extent that was contemplated when it was first begun. I would point out, if the alternative is to build high flats in the congested towns—and I cannot think that there can be any other alternative; that is the only one that has been seriously put forward—that on the present subsidy basis it would cost this country very much more by way of subsidy to build high flats than to carry on with the building programme of new towns. A calculation has been made which indicates that it would cost from £10 million to £15 million more to build 10,000 high flats in London than to build 10,000 dwellings in the new towns. Therefore, from a financial point of view it is definitely more economical to build houses in the new towns than to build flats in the existing congested areas.
One of the difficulties which confronts the new towns at the present time is the question of rents. Of necessity the new towns have to charge economic rents—by "economic," I do not mean rents which produce a reasonable return on the outlay, but rents which take account of the Exchequer subsidy and the local authority subsidy. But even allowing for both subsidies, the rents, generally speaking, are considerably higher than comparable dwellings erected by local authorities. There are a number of reasons for this. One is that local authorities usually have a pool of houses—very often pre-war houses—which they can take into account, on which they are not making any losses at all, and they
1204
can average the loss over the whole housing field. Moreover, local authorities often disguise some of their housing expenditure by not charging it up to the housing account. For instance, they may have a good deal of expenditure in connection with housing which is charged not to the housing account but to some other account. In a great many other ways they can cover up the housing expenditure.
Furthermore, a number of local authorities openly recognise that they have to provide a greater rating loss than is required under the Housing Act. For instance, the London County Council make a much greater loss than the normal rating loss required of them by the most recent Housing Act. For all these reasons, the development corporations are in some difficulty in the rents that they charge, and these rents are in many cases not comparable with those which the local authority charges. On the other hand, there has been a certain amount of exaggeration about the rents which the development corporations are charging. A good deal has been made of the case of Stevenage. Some flats have been erected there for which the rent charged is £4 a week, or £200 a year. Some of us who have to live in London in a flat would not regard that as being unduly excessive, especially if one wants to live in this part of London. Of course such a rent is excessive if it is charged to members of the working classes. But these flats were never intended for members of the working classes.
One of the purposes of the new towns was to provide balanced communities. As I said earlier, the new towns would fail if they became dormitories, but they would also fail if they were housing merely one section of the community and were shunned by everybody else. It was the hope of those responsible for the new towns to get all sections of the community, all those engaged in carrying on activities in the new towns, to live in them. We did not want any commuters in the new towns. We want people who earn their living in the new towns to live in them and take their part in them. Therefore, it was necessary to build a certain number of flats for members of the so-called middle classes. In Steven age, in particular, it was hoped to get the Department of Scientific and

1205
Industrial Research to carry on some of their activities there. The people taking part in those activities can afford to pay a higher rent, and would wish to have the rather better accommodation which is provided. It seems to me grossly unfair that Stevenage should have been criticised because the development corporation there were doing the very thing which was in accordance with the spirit of the new towns—that is, providing for other sections of the community. I imagine that these things arise through lack of understanding, and I am glad to have the opportunity of saying a few kind words about Stevenage because, of all my large progeny, that has been perhaps, owing to a series of misfortunes, the most backward. If one could see the last report one would find that Stevenage has come forward a little, and although it was a late starter it is now doing much better.
There is so much that one could say on the subject of new towns and these reports that my problem is to know what to leave out. I wish, however, to say a word or two about the administration of the new towns. The purpose of building the new towns by means of development corporations was to get interested and concerned with their erection people who would have ideas of their own, each trying out the kind of things which he thought most desirable, thereby avoiding the awful monotony of building fourteen new towns all designed by one Government Department, however excellent, and all bearing on them the stamp of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. I am very conscious of this, because in the County of London large numbers of blocks of flats have been built in the Georgian style, each excellent in design. But when you get 100 or 200 "excellences" all bearing upon them the stamp of the London County Council, it becomes a little monotonous and tiresome; and that was the kind of thing one wished to avoid in the case of new towns. Moreover, one regarded these new towns as laboratories In the next fifty years there is bound to be an immense amount of re-development of existing towns. Many of our towns are to-day hopelessly out of date. Of course, we cannot re-develop them all at once,—the physical facilities are not there—but there is no doubt that in the great cities of Lancashire, the West
1206
Riding of Yorkshire and in the Midlands, many towns will have to be almost completely rebuilt in the next generation or two; and we have a great deal to learn about the way in which the re-development should take place. It was felt that the new towns could serve a useful purpose in enabling us to carry out research and development on a relatively small scale—possibly even to make mistakes in some cases, but at any rate to avoid making the same mistakes all the time, and to make them on a small scale, rather than on a big scale.
If that is accepted as the case for development corporations, my criticism is that they have not been allowed their head as much as they ought to have been. There is a natural tendency for the person in Whitehall or St James's Square to feel that he knows better than anybody else how to build towns. He may do. But we do not want him to build all these new towns; that was not the idea. In some cases those people in London have felt that perhaps their own conception was better than that of other people. They did not like high blocks of flats, or they did not like this or that. The trouble is that too often their ideas have been imposed on the development corporations—not always, of course, by direct means There are indirect ways of imposing your ideas, if you know how to do it, and Whitehall is very skilful, as I know, in imposing its ideas indirectly, as well as directly.
I feel that we ought to give the development corporations as much scope and as much freedom as we can. I am not suggesting that we should allow them to do just what they like: the Minister, after all, is answerable to Parliament; he is given a certain amount of money to spend and he has got to account for it to Parliament. The question may be raised at any time, and he must be in a position to explain. This situation requires a very careful balance. It is not an easy matter: a balance has to be drawn as between the freedom that we want to give to the development corporations and the ultimate responsibility of the Minister. With wisdom and tolerance, however, this balance can, I feel, be reasonably drawn. And while I do not put it as a first-rate grievance I do say that too often development corporations have not been allowed their

1207
heads; they have not been allowed to give of their best. I think that in administration there is too much meticulous control, and that too much time is wasted in satisfying the meticulous requirements of the Departments. The functions of the corporations could have been very much speeded up if there had been less red tape than exists at the present time.
The Minister has stated that it is not his intention to start any more new towns. That I regret very much. I can, to some extent, understand it; I do not pretend that it is a wholly unintelligible point of view. But the point is that if we accept the purpose of the new towns, then there is a need for many more of them. If we accept their purpose, and accept the fact that to build these new towns is a proper way of providing accommodation, then we cannot just stop at the present number: we have got to go on and carry out the same action and the same purpose in many other parts of the country. The case for the new towns is very strong—both those around London and also the others which have been built. Take Manchester and Salford, which really constitute one town. They have a problem of providing accommodation outside their own area for something like 275,000 people. This cannot be done, unless we continue the existing congestion, without building new towns. The only solution is new towns. I am, of course, taking into consideration the Town Development Act, which provides for the expansion, the considerable expansion, of existing towns. I always had in mind, indeed, that the two things went together—they constitute one aspect of the same problem; in fact, it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between what is a new town and what is an extension of an existing town. Take, for instance, Hemel Hempstead, which started with a population of approximately 20,000 and is going to have 60,000. There are other towns about London which are to have their populations substantially increased. That might be possible to a considerable extent, perhaps, round about Manchester. Nevertheless, there is a great need for a considerable number of additional towns around Manchester and elsewhere.
If we are not going to build these new towns, we shall be saying to Manchester, in effect, either "Re-develop your city in the old way"—and in perhaps twenty or thirty years time another Government will be seeking to undo what is being done to-day—or, "Do nothing at all." If they are really desirous of re-developing their city, and providing accommodation for their people in the good conditions of the new towns, we ought not to call a halt to the construction of new towns. We ought to make it possible for the new towns to be built wherever they are needed. If the Minister is fearful of incurring great expenditure, he ought to know by now that in fact very little expenditure is incurred in the first few years; it is only later, when housing gets into its stride, that considerable expenditure begins to be incurred. The same thing applies to Leeds, Glasgow, Birmingham, Liverpool and many other large towns scattered over the country. They are all incapable of providing accommodation for their people inside their areas; they have got to go outside; and we are satisfied that the construction of new towns or the extension of existing towns is the only satisfactory way of doing it.
My Lords, I have been somewhat critical, but the new towns have had their successes, and it would be wrong to conclude this speech without saying something about the successes, as well as about the shortcomings. They have been successful in providing new ideas for the Government. Whether we like them or not, at any rate we can see them: here they are in being. In the case of Stevenage, Harlow and Crawley, they have pedestrian shopping centres where traffic is not allowed to go, and where people can do their shopping in complete safety; and in many cases under cover, in arcades. That is the kind of thing which many of us have talked about in the past. It is one thing to talk about it and another to see it in action; and here it is in action. If we are contemplating doing the same thing in re-developed towns we can see here how it is working and can get reports on it.
Then there are new ideas on the layout of housing. We talk of "twelve to the acre," or of some such artificial figures of that kind. But here we have the new towns actually in being. Some are already taking shape, and we can see

1209
what "twelve to the acre" really means. I have never been able to understand from paper reports whether twelve to the acre or, indeed, any other figure, was really satisfactory or not; and I imagine that many of your Lordships are in the same position. Here we can see for ourselves, and make up our minds what is the right kind of development for these new towns and for the existing towns when rebuilt. There are also new ideas about housing. The corporations have had to improvise a great deal, and cut their coats according to the amount of cloth available. Many excellent ideas have been forthcoming with a view to cutting down the cost. Many types of new building have been put up—improvised schools and technical colleges and so on—and to-day people are coning from the Dominions and from all over the world to the new towns to see for themselves what we are doing. I do not want to make exaggerated claims, but these towns are already becoming quite important dollar earners. If you look at the reports of the development corporations you will see that quite an important function of theirs is to show overseas visitors over the new towns, so that they may see what is being clone. This will increase and continue.
In conclusion, I should like to say a word about those who are responsible for the carrying out of this great task, the members of the development corporations and the officers. Many of the members have been in office since the beginning. They are persons whom I myself appointed, and they have all done a wonderful job. It requires a great deal of devotion to undertake a thankless task of this kind. There is no publicity attached to it; there is only hard work. Many members of corporations, and many chairmen, have undertaken the task under conditions of great personal sacrifice, because they believed in what was being done and felt that they would like to play a part in doing it. I think that, by and large, they have done a magnificent job, and they do deserve the thanks of all of us for the part they have played.
I should like to say the same about the officers of the corporations: in many cases it has not been a job to them at all. I know of a number of officers who have accepted positions on the develop-
1210
ment corporations only at financial sacrifice. They have sacrificed their chances of superannuation, and even accepted a reduction in salary, in order to be able to play their part in this great public enterprise. I am sure that we should be right in expressing our gratitude to them. It is fortunate that this country produces persons of that kind whenever there is a need for them, because without such persons the ideals for which we have been striving, the purpose at which we have been aiming, would have completely failed. In the end, everything depends upon the personnel. With such people, we can feel confident that we shall go forward to complete success; and in the new towns that are at present operating, and in those which are to come, we shall be building up for future generations conditions of which we may well feel proud.

COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE
3.32 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, will your Lordships pardon me if I intervene at this moment in order to make a statement on Government policy towards the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts? My right honourable friend the Colonial Secretary is asking Colonial Governments and other authorities concerned to provide him with material on which Her Majesty's Government can approach Parliament for further funds for Colonial development. He hopes it will be possible to introduce the necessary legislation early in the 1954–55 Session. Meanwhile, he is telling Colonial Governments that they may proceed on the assumption that the period in which the £140 million sterling provided under the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts of 1945 and 1950 may be spent will be extended by legislation beyond the period to March 31, 1956. He is also telling them that, where necessary for essential development, they may enter into commitments extending beyond 1956 and over and above the £140 million already provided, on the understanding that Her Majesty's Government will in due course ask Parliament to vote the

1211
necessary moneys. Such advance commitments will be limited to a total of £7 million and will not be made without the concurrence of the Treasury.
There is a further matter of which I should like to inform the House. Because of the serious world rice shortage, Her Majesty's Government have thought it necessary to make funds available to a maximum of £3 million for promoting the production of rice in the Colonies. Expenditure on such schemes is proper to the existing Colonial Development and Welfare Acts, but we do not wish it to displace desirable developments in other directions. These special schemes for growing rice may, therefore, in due course, involve allocations and ultimately expenditure in excess of the existing statutory limit of £140 million. The legislation to which I have referred will also, if necessary, provide cover for expenditure up to £3 million which may be incurred under these arrangements.
I should make it clear that there is no question of authorising in advance of the new legislation actual expenditure in excess of the existing statutory limits. But the House should be aware that Colonial Governments may in the interim be entering into commitments, to the extent to which I have indicated, on the understanding that the necessary funds to meet these commitments will be provided by Her Majesty's Government under the new legislation. My right honourable friend can see no other way of ensuring that the continuity of Colonial development is not interrupted, and he feels confident that he will have the full support of your Lordships' House in the action he is taking. I should like the House to be reminded also that the expenditure of Colonial development and welfare funds also opens up further fields for private investment.
3.37 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends on this side of the House, I should like to thank the noble Earl for making that statement, a statement which we welcome, as we do the proposal for the introduction of legislation for a continuation of the Fund next year. I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he can give your Lordships some information as to the amount of expenditure which has already
1212
been incurred out of the £140 million; also the amount which has been approved and any surplus that there may be at the expiration of the existing legislation. Can he give us some information as to what proportion, if any, of the £7 million to which he has referred in his statement will be used for the purpose of research?
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, may I tell the House, in as brief a period as I can, that of the original sum of £140 million which was allocated under the Acts up to the year 1956 some £71 million has been spent up to date. Schemes have been approved for the expenditure of £110 million, and a sum of about £30 million has been earmarked for additional schemes which have not yet been wholly approved. The noble Viscount will see that the rate of expenditure has been £15 million a year, and it might conceivably rise within the very near future, including this and other years up to the end of 1956, to a figure of about £18 million a year. At the end of the period—that is to say, when the existing Act expires in about 1956—it is estimated that at that rate of expenditure some £4 million odd might be left as surplus, but I should not like the noble Viscount to tie me to that figure. It may well be that between now and the expiration of the Act the total sum may be, not spent on, but approved for, schemes which it is intended to bring into operation.
VISCOUNT HALL: I am grateful to the noble Earl for that information. I wonder whether he could give some estimate as to the expenditure of the Colonies themselves on objects for which the Fund was provided? He may not have that information and, if not, perhaps he could let me have it in correspondence.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I have the figures, which again I would ask the noble Viscount not to tie me down to firmly; they are the nearest figures which I think will be appropriate in reply to the question which the noble Viscount has addressed to me. We have estimated that the total Colonial development and welfare plan amounted to a sum of about £470 million. Of that figure the Colonial Development and Welfare Funds have provided about £100 million; loans on

1213
the market—that is, the open market—amount to the figure of £160 million, and the territories themselves have provided a figure of some £220 million. It is true that the debits and credits there do not actually balance, but those are the figures which I think as nearly as possible answer the query which the noble Viscount has addressed to me.
VISCOUNT HALL: I am much obliged.

EAST GERMAN DISTURBANCES
3.40 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, if I may further delay the course of an interesting debate, with the permission of the House, I should like to repeat for your Lordships' information a statement on the disturbances in the Soviet Zone of Germany which has just been made by my right honourable friend the Minister of State in another place. According to my information, the events in Berlin last week were preceded by strikes and demonstrations at many points in the Eastern Zone of Germany against the repressive Communist régime. In Berlin itself a spontaneous protest strike on June 16 developed on the following day into a widespread demonstration against the East German Administration.
When, late on June 17, the authority of the East German Administration had broken down completely, the Soviet occupation authorities moved three divisions of troops into East Berlin, imposed martial law and took firm measures to restore order. Although the Russians appear to have behaved so far with restraint, a number of East Berlin citizens have been killed and wounded. In addition, a West Berlin citizen has been summarily executed, at least seven people died in the Western sectors after being carried in wounded from the Eastern sector, and over a hundred wounded are now in the Western sector. All communications between East and West Berlin were severed, with serious results upon the life and economy of the city. In fulfilment of their duty to protect the interests of the population, a firm protest was made by the three Allied Commandants to the Soviet representative in Berlin on the evening of June 18. Since the week-end, the situation in East Berlin appears to be gradually returning to
1214
normal. The Soviet and Allied authorities in Berlin are now in touch regarding the early resumption of communications. The picture of events in the Eastern Zone as a whole is not yet clear.
So far as we are aware, no British subjects have been involved.
Contrary to Soviet allegations, these demonstrations were neither provoked by, nor directed from, the West. In expressing sympathy for those who have suffered, and admiration for their courage, Her Majesty's Government must equally counsel prudence and restraint so that further bloodshed and suffering may be avoided. The Prime Minister has received a personal message from the German Federal Chancellor appealing to Her Majesty's Government to do all in their power to realise the unity and freedom of the German nation. He intends to inform Dr. Adenauer in reply that Her Majesty's Government are in full accord with the spirit of this message. We have frequently made clear that our aim is a Germany reunited in freedom. We believe that the only way to achieve this is on the basis of the practical proposals contained in the note of the three Western Powers to the Soviet Government of September last year, but to which no reply has yet been given. The resolution passed in the Bundestag on June 10 shows that this is the policy of the German Government Coalition and also of the Social Democratic opposition.
Meanwhile, I repeat that Her Majesty's Government are resolved to adhere most faithfully in the spirit as well as in the letter to their commitments to Western Germany, and that Western Germany will in no way be sacrificed or cease to be master of its own fortunes within the agreements we and other North Atlantic Treaty Organisation countries have made with her.
3.45 p.m.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Marquess for the statement which he has just made, and, on behalf of noble Lords sitting on this side of the House, to join in the expression of admiration for the courage and steadfastness of the workers of the Russian sector of Berlin and of the Eastern Zone; and also to join in the expression of sympathy with those who lost their lives in this very remarkable

1215
and spontaneous demonstration of popular devotion to the cause of peace and the unification of Germany. I think it is clear that the Administration in Eastern Germany speaks for nobody but itself, and that but for the introduction of Soviet force in connection with this demonstration that Administration would no longer exist. We also welcome the re-affirmation of Her Majesty's Government's policy with reference to the basis for there unification of Germany, and also the statement that there will be no sacrifice of the present rights to freedom and political independence of Western Germany. There is just one point about which I should like to ask the noble Marquess. I think I am right in saying that on Saturday there is to be a meeting of the High Commissioners in Berlin, and it may be that as a result of their discussions other action or representations may be proposed. May we take it that the noble Marquess will keep the House informed of any further development?
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for what he has said in approval of the attitude that we have adopted. Naturally, if there is any further information which the House should have, it shall be at its disposal at the earliest possible opportunity.

NEW TOWNS
3.47 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, it is no light matter to follow a speaker of Lord Silkin's calibre, speaking with such knowledge and experience of this subject, particularly since it was he who was responsible for the shaping and bringing to birth of the Act under which the new towns and their corporations are coming into being. The noble Lord has given a wide review of the situation which has compelled this nation finally to consider the creation of new and separate towns to meet separate problems. He has been particularly responsible for handling the problems arising out of a vast population such as we have in London, and he has shown, in very choice language, the needs which have compelled us to take this step. I think it is correct to say that, without any previous experience gathered
1216
from any other country, we are marking out a new road over which we should travel in dealing with our particular section of industrial civilisation.
I have noticed that there is a tendency for the population of the country to think of the new towns as communities which affect certain parts of the country but have little directly to do with them. One never knows, however, what changes will take place in any part of the country in consequence of the development of modern industry. Only last week I paid a visit to my own county where, lone ago, when I was a boy, a certain kind of mineral was worked. The works where that industry was carried on were closed down sixty years ago, and everyone thought that was the end of it. But modern science has now made it possible to make use of many elements in the mineral in question, and on such a scale that to-day vast works have grown up in the district. Of the possibility of one of these places being started, certainly no one would have dreamed half a century ago.
I mention these matters at the beginning of my speech, which will not be a long one, because I want to submit that what the new towns are doing is winning for Britain experience which may have to be used in almost any part of the country—sometimes without the citizens who live there in the least expecting it. I speak particularly for the areas where heavy industries are carried on. Heavy industry, as Lord Silkin has pointed out, has separate considerations of its own attaching to it. I think he described three different sections of such industry. When I was a very small boy I went from a little village to a part of the world largely devoted to heavy industry, and I well remember the profound impression which the change made upon me. Leaving, as I did, a place from which one had views of sea, mountains and open spaces on a vast scale, it was a great shock to see before me a great coal mining area, and I have never forgotten it. But that sort of experience is not peculiar to people living in Britain. Under modern industrial civilisation it is a common experience of mankind.
We are all familiar with Butler's Erewhon, and the works of various philosophers who have demonstrated the logic of modern industry. If I may, I

1217
should like to quote from a book that I wrote, published about 1932—that is some twenty years ago. These were the words I wrote after much pondering upon this problem, whilst performing my normal everyday tasks:
"if we rationalise the world in terms of modern industry, can we remain rational? … This submergence of the personality;"—
which is a fact—
"this shutting out of Nature by iron and steel erections; this cutting off of men, women ad children from fields, woods and seas, affects the imagination, intellect, and spirit so keenly that it is questionable whether you can have a really rational outlook on life under a so-called rationalised industrial order."
Your Lordships will remember that those words were written twenty years ago. I also wrote that:
"modern transport and new forms of power which give more scope for location should tend to 'naturalise' conditions, if the will and vision is there."
It is a good thing for this country, I think, that the will and the vision have been there to deal with a matter of this kind.
I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and your Lordships generally, that in the early stages of the new towns project one was led to wonder whether anything in a really practical form was going to emerge from the idea. I know that there were many problems to face, but it was a long-term affair, involving, almost, the mapping out of the whole country. Lord Silkin has specially mentioned Peterlee. May I say that the man, Peter Lee, was a native of Durham, who rendered very great service to his fellow men and whose work had a profound influence for good in many ways. It improved the health of the community. He laid on pure water to old villages which for something like a century had been without it, and which, in consequence, had had their populations decimated by disease—particularly by illness affecting youngsters. If I were to tell your Lordships in statistical terms of all the changes which the great efforts of Peter Lee brought about, you would find the statistics almost incredible. He never spared himself, and he was always inspired by a passionate zeal for the public well-being, especially in his own county. It is good that the people have been sufficiently grateful to him to ask that a great new town should be named after him.
1218
These new towns are now emerging, and I may tell your Lordships that within a short time—a fortnight at most—I shall have the honour of opening the one thousandth house in that new town of Peterlee. The bulk of the population in the county of Durham—whether in those parts where the industry is steel, or in those concerned with coal or shipbuilding—live within sight sometimes of slagheaps, sometimes of great industrial undertakings that almost overwhelm the vision. The new towns of Peterlee, Aycliffe, and similar towns in these heavy industrial areas, have their own particular problems, of course, but it is a good thing that the people are being removed 'from the old areas. Those of your Lordships who have not seen them would hardly believe that such streets and houses as those in some of these areas, which were built up in the early nineteenth century, could exist to-day.
In all these new towns the hard outlines will be softened by a warm neighbourly spirit, just as it was in the old towns. The problem will be to build up a corporate life similar to that which the people of the new towns left in their old towns and villages. I can imagine that there will be much heart-searching and longing for the old neighbourliness, and it seems to me that the great problem is to build up a corporate life that will satisfy the inward longings of those who have been born in the old neighbourly ways. Of course, those who go to the new towns will be living in open spaces, and in better houses, and will be free from much that was unsatisfactory in the old conditions—I am speaking particularly of the areas of heavy industry. They will take a pride in their new houses and in their new towns. It must not be forgotten that there is no greater measure of house-pride to be found in what we call the great houses than there is to be found among those who come to live in these new and improved houses. I think that the development of this corporate life is one of the main tests of these new towns, but we must always remember the slow rate at which it can be built up. I do not want to speak too long, because I have to leave to travel; but I repeat that this experiment is one that affects not only a corner here and there of the life of this country but the whole life of the

1219
community. Britain is honoured in leading the way once more in matters affecting industrial life, as she has led the rest of the world on more than one occasion. I trust that this great experiment will not only be successful but also will be understood by the people of this country.
My noble friend Lord Silkin dealt with the various items on which it would be necessary to spend money. I hope that the Minister and the Government understand that they will have to be generous in carrying out the ideal, if these new towns are to be a success. I trust that there is going to be no limitation in that respect. It is true, as my noble friend Lord Silkin said, that the question of rent will be a difficult problem for those who go to homes in the new towns, as I know from what I have seen in the two new towns in Durham. I trust that much thought and generous feeling will be given to the building up of the necessary light industries round about the new towns. A light industry is one thing and a heavy industry is another. I have seen some light industries down the Great West Road that looked to me like toys, compared with the establishments that I have been accustomed to calling industrial. I hope that very generous thought will be given to the establishment of the new trading estates to meet the needs of the new towns, and that the different Departments affected will co-operate to do a real job. In fifty years' time there may be a greater understanding of the effort that has been made, and of the facts that have compelled the British Government at last to face the logic of modern industrialism. To-day we wish well to the great efforts that are being made. There will have to be much patience and understanding of their object. Britain is once more leading the way. I believe that we are experimenting to try to solve the problem not only for ourselves but for industry in a great many other countries in the world.
4.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT HUDSON: My Lords, before I pass one or two comments on the speeches to which we have listened, I should like to make a preliminary observation. I wish to call your Lordships' attention to the conditions under which we are carrying on this debate.
1220
We have here a volume of 430 pages, and how the Department concerned expect busy men, as the bulk of your Lordships are, to read this through, passes my comprehension. In the old days the reports were published separately and mostly read locally. That was all right. Now they are published in a single volume, and it seems to me the negation of everything that public relations should be that we should be presented with this book, without any summary of its contents or conclusions, or any indication where anyone interested in education, for example, can find the relevant passages in the relevant reports. I venture to hope that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, will make a special point with the Department to see that in future they should mend their ways.
The other criticism I have to make of this report arises particularly out of what the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has just said: that, taken as a whole, it conveys little information about what I, at all events, believe to be one of the most important matters connected with these towns—namely, the change in the personal relations of the people living there. I confess I have not a great deal of personal knowledge of these new towns, but it so happens that some two or three years ago, in another place, I was chairman of a Party committee on town and country planning. The then Minister of Town and Country Planning said that he wanted to have a debate on new towns. I thought it would be as well, before we had that debate, to acquaint myself with the conditions. I went down to Crawley; and I asked the other members of my committee to go and see other towns and report to the meeting, with a view, quite frankly, to "ragging" the then Minister, as, indeed, it was my duty to do as a member of the Opposition. I went down at that time to find cause for criticism, but came back with nothing but cause for praise with one exception. As I say, that was at Crawley.
I was particularly interested in the social side of the subject. I believe that the public at large would be equally interested to hear details of the sort about which I was told there: of the way in which factories in London were visited and the management were asked if they would like to move to Crawley; of a list of their employees being taken,

1221
and the employees being visited in their homes and taken down in charabancs to the new town; and of the wives being shown half-a-dozen different types of house which they might choose to occupy. Even more important than that, although the rents were substantially higher than they had been paying in London—they were of the order of £2 a week and over, as compared with 5s. and 7s. 6d. a week—the housewives were unanimous in saying that they were financially better off, without any increase in wages, than they were in London.
Inquiry on my part elicited—I take no credit for it; it was well known—first of all, that the cost of keeping their children well, quite apart from the National Health Service, was substantially less in Crawley than it had been in the slums in London; that their husbands did not have to pay large sums every week for transport to their work; that they did not have to pay for canteens, because they were within live minutes' bicycling distance and could go home for dinner every day; and, what was particularly interesting, that their husbands, instead of being so disgusted with their home conditions, having to live in one or two rooms, with a family, and therefore immediately they had had their dinner on Saturday inevitably going off to the British Legion or "what have you" and spending the rest of the day arid most of Sunday there, with the necessary concomitant of standing each other a drink, spent all their time in the garden, except that probably once during the week-end they went off to have a convivial glass of beer. The net result, as put forward by the housewives, was that they were infinitely better off, in spite of the rents making a much bigger hole in their income.
The final fact that interested me was that several of the manufacturers I spoke to said that, to their great astonishment, their shop stewards had come to them and asked if the men could work an extra hour; and when asked why it was, they said they were so much less tired working at Crawley than they were when working in the factory in London, with the amount of travelling that they then had to do, that they would like to work the extra time in order to earn overtime to enable them to pay the high rents. That is a remarkable picture of what
1222
these new towns can do in the way of alleviating overcrowded conditions. So far as I know, you can search these reports without finding a trace of what, in my view, is one of the real justifications for the expenditure of this large sum of money.
There were only two things I found which might be regarded with criticism. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will be interested to know that the corporations responsible told me that they had only one serious criticism to make, which was that they were pinned down by the meticulous care with which proceedings were examined by the then Minister of Town and Country Planning, and the amount of red tape that was involved in getting the smallest possible deviation from any existing plan. The other criticism, which I think is far more serious from the costing and especially the agricultural point of view, is the frightful waste of land and money involved by putting schools in a central position, instead of on one corner. They put the schools and the playing fields in the centre of each block of the town, with the inevitable result that everything is spread out—the roads are longer, the drains are longer, and the water supply is longer. I have forgotten the exact figure, but the extra cost of developing Crawley, as the result of putting the schools in the centre rather than on one corner, ran into thousands of pounds per acre. That, of course, was shown in the rents that had to be paid. I feel that that is a matter which ought to be examined carefully.
A further point in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on which I should like to comment is his apparent disregard for agriculture. I, on the contrary, as may well be imagined, take an intense interest in the question of agriculture. I was pleased to see that in the case of Bracknell agricultural considerations were taken into account and the location of the town was moved slightly, without, so far as I know, any deleterious effect on the development of the town. But what I think is more important is that although today we are talking about new towns specifically, the actual problem of rehousing the people is not limited to new towns. Unfortunately, the big corporations, like the London County Council, are building all over the Home Counties satellite towns

1223
with none of the amenities of the new towns, having selected in only too many cases perfectly good, first-class agricultural land.
There is one case in the east, which shall be nameless, which happened while I was Minister where some of the best remaining market garden land around London was taken. A mile or two away there was quite indifferent land, but, because the London County Council had set their eye on this particular site, they took it, despite my violent protests. I see that to-day they are building a new satellite town outside Slough, again on first-class agricultural land and, what is more important, first-class horticultural, market garden land, with the inevitable result that the cost of growing vegetables and horticultural products generally is bound to increase the price to the Londoner, because this good peripheral land, of market garden quality, is being built over for this satellite town. Therefore, I think it is a matter of great importance that the powers of the Ministry of Agriculture should be increased, rather than diminished.
There is a great deal in what the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said. He and I know a lot about mining areas—I had the honour of representing one for many years. It is the fact, as he so rightly said, that when you move people out of rows of houses, or even out of slums, into these better surroundings represented by twelve houses to the acre, it does destroy something of the social life that they have been used to living. Slums are the very devil, and terraced houses may be; but everyone who knows the conditions there knows that there is a great social convenience in being able to lean up against your doorpost and gossip with your immediate next door neighbour, instead of having to put on your best bib and tucker and walk down the garden and up another garden path. It is a very real problem to get re-established in these new towns the same communal spirit that used to exist in spite of all the drawbacks and difficulties of living together in a narrow space. Again, no reference is made to that in these reports. I am sure that is the sort of thing in which the public are interested, and we should be glad to know to what
1224
extent the corporations are overcoming some of these drawbacks.
My final comment is on the question of rents. It is obviously grossly unfair that corporations should be tied by the Rent Restrictions Acts when local authorities, in the same conditions, building the same sort of houses in satellite towns, are free from restriction. I think the time is long past when legislation should be introduced giving these corporations the same freedom as local authorities to raise the earlier rents, in order that the weight may be spread more evenly over the whole of the inhabitants of these new towns.
4.22 p.m.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, let me at once join with the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, in making reference to this document. I have been perusing it now for days, and I should much prefer to have twelve separate documents dealing with each of the corporations separately. Moreover, it must be remembered that the cost of this document is 15s. That is a high price for certain individuals, especially if they do not want the whole document. They want separate parts of it, and I hope the noble Lord will make representations regarding future reports of these various corporations.
Let me say at once that it is a little unusual to hear an ex-Minister moving a Motion referring to what he did when he was a Minister. Not every Minister dare do that. Many ex-Ministers that I know are quite prepared to remain quiescent regarding the efforts they made. But not Lord Silkin. He is proud of what he did in 1946, and, if I may say so, rightly proud. If no one else was prepared to look at what he did, he was, and he placed the Motion on the Order Paper. I compliment him also on the speech he made in submitting the Motion. He covered a great deal of ground, not leaving much for anyone else. He dealt with almost every aspect of the problem in the masterful way of which we know he is capable on this question.
To me, the interesting feature of the reports is their similarity. Here we have twelve separate reports on townships separated by hundreds of miles; and yet they are similar. They differ in some things. I notice that in the list of contents

1225
one or two put housing before engineering services, and vice versa. But in the contents as a whole these reports are wonderfully similar. What is made clear is that the corporations were faced with similar problems and their experiences have also been similar in all the areas. When I look at certain aspects of these problems I find that the anticipation was remarkable. This House and another place, when dealing with the New Towns Bill, were able to anticipate what would happen when the Bill became an Act. What they anticipated has actually happened. They saw the difficulties referred to by my noble friend Lord Lawson and the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson. They knew that it was difficult to decide at what rate we should build houses, having regard to the need for shops, schools, churches, chapels, community centres and health centres.
The town I know best is Cwmbran, in South Wales. The development corporation there decided to divide the town into seven separate areas. They said, "We will build a town for roughly 35,000 population. We will have seven areas of 5,000 each, and in each we will have a shopping centre, churches, and community centres, et cetera. We are told that this was done in order to balance communities. I sometimes wonder what a "balanced community" is. Who decides? Do you decide on figures? Do you say, "So many in business, so many secretarial, so many managerial, so many workers, so many middle class and so many lower class?" How do you decide? It was vital that we should decide in order to solve the problem. If you decide in the Cwmbran case that you should have 5,000 houses for managerial and the lower-middle classes, and 30,000 for the ordinary artisan what is your position? You have to provide those houses for the ordinary artisan at a rent approaching what he can be expected to pay. I am fully aware of the differences between local authority houses and development corporation's houses: the tenants of the latter houses are not safeguarded, and they are not assisted in any way. When I find rents of £2 5s. 0d. a week being charged in Cwmbran for a corporation house and 27s. 6d. a week for local council houses, and men with the same wages and similar families living in each, I can well under-
1226
stand the grievances and discontent. The sum of 17s. 6d. is a big difference, and it is actually happening there. It is true that they are better houses, and it may be that we shall be obliged to consider how to get houses at a rent within the range of those for whom the houses were intended and, at the same time, get these balanced communities.
I find that there are criticisms in Cwmbran of a different character. Just before the House sat to-day I was able to bring to the notice of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, a reference in the South Wales Argus of Friday last, June 19. I was only able to show it to the noble Lord for a short time to glance at it in order to give him some idea of what I was going to raise. The headline says:
"Bricklayer would be ashamed to stand by new town houses."
Those are the houses in this new town of Cwmbran. I have here the correspondence between the Pontypool Rural Council and the Director of the Cwmbran New Town Development Corporation. Let me read what the local council has to say regarding the houses being built by the new town corporation:
"… members had described the new houses as less satisfactory than those which were erected before the Rural Council came into existence in 1894."
Let that be clearly understood—that the houses being built in 1952 were poorer than houses built before 1894. It goes on:
"The Council appreciate that attempts are being made to expedite the production of houses, but are of the opinion that quality has given way to quantity. They have been told that this type of house has been produced by your corporation, and in fact other housing authorities, under pressure from Government Departments, but are of the opinion that some stand should be made to protest.
"Proof of this policy has been provided by the Ministry itself, sending round inspectors to tell the local councils that the production of essential materials, such as bricks and cement, could not keep pace with the building programme, and advocating alternatives, which in the humble opinion of this Council, afford an unsatisfactory structure with a shorter life than the period of loans which is being kept up to assist in bringing rents within the power of the tenants to pay."
Here is another aspect which the council criticise, and to which we need to have regard:
"Having regard to the fact that at no very distant date your corporation will be handing over these houses to the local councils, the

1227
latter have a direct financial interest, and press your corporation to take up the matter with the Government Departments concerned on the lines suggested above."
I hope the Minister will be able to ask for this correspondence, and see the copies; and I hope also that he will have regard to the complaints made. After all, quantity is important—very important indeed. I agree that regard must be had to quantity as well as to quality; but in a case of this kind the quality should be such that the rents of the dwellings are within the capacity of those people who should be tenanting the houses.
I know that this question of new towns has been well covered, but I want us to be quite clear that this problem is of vital importance. Take the case of this one new town in Wales. I do not know how many of your Lordships have spent much time in South Wales, and in particular in these mining areas where there are these hundreds of thousands of miners huddled together on the hillsides and in the valleys. I was certainly sorry to hear Lord Silkin's hint that a decision had been made that no further towns would be started. I hope that the reasons for the starting of the fourteen towns that have been begun were good reasons: I am certain that there are equally good reasons for others to be started in the very near future. I remember that Lord Silkin, in his speech on the Third Reading of the New Towns Bill in another place, said that he approached his task with very great humility and very high hopes. I am not prepared to say that his hopes have been fully justified, but I am prepared to say that events have fully justified the venture made.
4.32 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, we have been listening to a most interesting debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who in fact proposed that he would ask for a debate of this kind at a very much earlier date. There was a debate in your Lordships' House on May 27 last year, when Lord Silkin made a statement about the fourteen areas where the new towns were being built, and of the money which was being spent and which would be spent in the future. Now the programme is getting further and further from fulfilment, although such a large amount of money has been spent. This point is made in The Times
1228
of to-day. This is an interesting point of view which I think ought to be answered by the Minister to-day. Lord Silkin said that it would be helpful if at some time in the future we had this debate, and he has certainly redeemed his promise to-day. We now want the Minister to tell us how the Act is working as regards attracting industry to the new towns.
When one reads this rather cumbrously produced volume of reports of the development corporations (I say "cumbrously," because it does not give the information one would like to have in regard to the towns and is not conveniently arranged) one does not get a very clear picture of how the Act is working. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us his views on this matter of how the Act is working as regards attracting industry to the towns. Some of the new towns apparently have very little industry. Crawley, which was mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, is an exception: it has a considerable amount of industry; but others have not. How are the arrangements working as regards the provision of schools for the children now in the towns and for the children who will shortly be there when the population increases? What arrangements are being made with regard to medical and dental services for the people living in the towns now, and those who will live there in the future?
Most of the new towns, says The Times this morning, differ but little from housing estates. I wonder whether the Minister thinks that that is a true statement or not. I hope he will express his opinion on that matter. The Times also refers to "the diffuse architectural form" of the towns, due to their having only twelve houses to the acre. I must say, for my part, that I agree with Lord Hudson; I think that a town should be built not like a suburb but like a town—and a town does not have twelve houses to the acre, at any rate not inmost parts of the great cities of this country. A town should be built as a town, with playgrounds and playing fields round about it. It should not be built in a garden suburb kind of way. Take the question of children and the schools. I have, with some difficulty, extracted a good deal of information out of these reports of the development corporations on new towns. I

1229
find with regard to Aycliffe, in Durham, a statement that the younger children have to travel daily to schools in neighbouring towns and villages because there are not adequate schools in Aycliffe itself. In Harlow, which is one of the most successful of the towns, and which rates very highly as a successful project, the children are crowded in the schools, whilst others have to travel considerable distances from their homes in Harlow to school. In another place, Basildon, in Essex, the corporation is concerned lest school building will not keep pace with the growing population. I will not quote any more, but that is a fair sample of the views which are held by many of these corporations, and the difficulties which face them with regard to schools.
Now there is the question, how can this situation be remedied? One point which has not, to my knowledge, been mentioned in the present debate, is the fact that at the present time higher rates are being paid to builders for building houses than for building schools. It is part of the Government's programme, I think, to put up as many houses as possible, and apparently higher wages are being paid for house building than for school building. A witness of the Ministry of Education said with regard to this matter:
"If one were to pay the labour on schools the kind of bonuses and incentive payments which are paid on houses, the total cost of school building would be increased—but presumably there would be more schools."
It is absolutely essential that in the new towns there should be not only industries but also schools, and, of course, medical services. I believe that in this matter there is need for closer co-ordination of policy between Government Departments than there has been up to the present. I should like to quote here Recommendation No. 1 of the Select Committee on Estimates, which bas been published in the last two or three days. This is what the Committee say:
"Closer consultation should take place in the future between the Ministry of Education on the one hand and the local education authorities or their representative body on the other, so that a more accurate estimate of the number of school places needed may be agreed upon"—
and I want to emphasise the next words—
"by less haphazard methods."
1230
It is a fairly drastic condemnation of a Government Department to say that their methods are "haphazard."
I suggest that it is also necessary to approach the problem of the supply of medical and dental services in the new towns. You do not solve this problem by saying, "Build a medical centre." I have seen in the Report a photograph of the medical centre at Harlow, Essex, a place I know very well and through which I frequently go. This photograph looks very businesslike, but you do not get medical and dental facilities by putting up a medical centre: you get it by having the doctors. You have to be sure that you have them in the new towns. You have to be sure that in the new towns you have the medical, dental and other treatment that is necessary for the men, women and children who live there. A medical centre may be a very good thing in appropriate circumstances, but it is not the first thing. The first thing is the organisation of the doctors and the dentists. It is the doctors and the dentists who are essential. The places in which they work are secondary. I say this because it is necessary to see that medical and dental services are available; you should not await the erection of a medical building before you arrange for their work in the new towns. I do not think it is quite certain, from the reports which I have read, dealing with the new towns, that there is, in fact, a wholly adequate and satisfactory service in the new towns. I hope that that state of affairs will soon be improved. Consultations with the medical profession in those areas, through the British Medical Association, which is the recognised medium of consultation, would probably help considerably in getting better medical treatment. Similarly, consultation with the dental authorities would assist in getting better dental treatment.
In my view, the Government should also see to it that, as regards the setting up off industries, the provision of schools and the provision of medical services, the appropriate Departments are fully informed. I want to ask the Minister whether he can give us now a statement to the effect that the Government are taking steps to see that industries are attracted to the towns. I also hope that we can be assured that all those concerned in the question of the administration of

1231
the new towns or the helping of the new towns in any way, through one Government Department or another, are fully informed of what is going on, and that there is real co-operation, from the Ministerial level at the top—several Ministers are involved—to the skilled and unskilled labourers working on the sites of the new towns. I hope that the Minister will be able to say that the problem of industries and schools and the supply of doctors and dentists is being satisfactorily solved.
4.43 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I should like to begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for giving us the opportunity of debating this extremely interesting—to me at any rate—and extremely important subject this afternoon. I should also like to thank him for the most moderate and constructive way in which he phrased his remarks. He speaks with great authority: none greater. He probably regards the development of these new towns rather in the way of a proud father, a father quite willing to chastise if need be. I am glad also that he opened his remarks by pointing out that these twelve reports in this rather criticised volume are, of course, reports of varying degrees of advancement. They all differ; they are not reports about housing estates but they are reports about the building of towns, which is quite a different thing. They cover a very wide range of subjects: social, economic, industrial and financial. All these towns are at different stages in their career, and that may account, to a certain degree, for the bulk of the Report. I am sorry that the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, who is not here at the moment, found the actual size of the Report distasteful to him, as did the noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest. The various reports always have been published together, not only for the sake of convenience but also for comparison and because it was slightly cheaper. There has been nothing in the past but praise for the convenience of having one volume. However, I note the criticism that has now crept in, probably because the Report has become a little unwieldy. I will certainly refer these criticisms to the proper quarters, and perhaps in future there may be both a consolidated Report and an unconsolidated report for
1232
the convenience of those who like their reading matter slightly lighter.
Before I go on to deal with the individual questions which the noble Lord has raised, I should like to make two general points. The first is this. Her Majesty's Government feel neither complacent nor apologetic about what has been achieved so far. We do not suggest for one moment that there have not been mistakes and that opportunities have not been missed, but equally we say, quite firmly, that a great deal has been achieved and there is very little indeed to be apologetic about. That does not alter the fact that we are perfectly prepared to listen to all reasonable criticism and, if at all possible, to act upon it.
My second point, of a general nature, is this. I think that it must be a matter of great satisfaction to everyone concerned—and I am certain it will be a matter of satisfaction to nobody more than to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin—that some of the strong local feelings, even bitterness at times, which accompanied the setting up of these new towns has died down and, in many cases, completely disappeared. I cannot pretend for one moment that I have visited more than a very few of these new towns. I wish I had had the opportunity to visit more. Those I have visited in the London area have all impressed me greatly by the absence of ill will and by the determination of everybody engaged on the project or living in the towns to get along well together. I think that allays successfully some of the fears which many of us had when these towns were started, that a certain amount of acrimony and even a certain amount of, I am afraid, political backbiting, might stand in the way of their progress.
Now I turn to what I think has been the question uppermost in most noble Lords'minds—hardly any speaker failed to mention it—that is, the position of industry in relation to rival interests in these new towns. Of course, although industry is one of the most important aspects, it is only one of the fields of development in these new towns. Perhaps, therefore, I can summarise briefly what has been achieved by the corporations up to the end of last month—and your Lordships will, of course, remember that this Report does not go anything like as far as the end of last month.

1233
Up to the end of last month, as the noble Lord suggested, over 12,000 houses have been built and nearly 9,000 are under construction. Just over 200 shops have been completed or are under construction. One church has been completed and nine are under construction—I shall have a little more to say about that later. Seventeen community centres and halls have been completed or are under construction, and eight "pubs," I am glad to say, have either been completed or are under construction.
Here I should like to interrupt my remarks in order to refer to the leading article in this morning's Times newspaper, to which the noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest referred, a leading article with which I am not able to find myself in agreement. This article says:
"Most of the new towns differ but little from housing estates"—
that was the actual remark to which I think the noble Lord referred. It goes on:
"They are neither well enough equipped with industries to provide balanced employment locally nor with public buildings to allow them to be self-sufficient socially."
I think your Lordships may agree that I have already said enough to show that this allegation is very wide of the mark. Over 2,500,000 square feet of factory space, nearly 10,000 square feet of offices, over 200 shops, 10 churches and 17 community centres and halls—all of these things are completed or are under construction. Surely that is something which goes very much beyond a housing estate. The last one I have seen is Hemel Hempstead. That is the only one of which I have recent personal experience. I would ask the writer of that article to go to Hemel Hempstead and comeback and say whether he still thinks that it has got no further than the category of a housing estate.
The writer goes on to suggest that there is not sufficient variety of industry in our new towns. In this regard there is some justice, I think, in his comment in respect of at least some of the new towns. The corporations and the Government Departments concerned are doing their best to correct this condition. Your Lordships will have noted the strict economic tests which until recently governed the issue of building licences in new towns, as elsewhere. Their strong emphasis on
1234
defence and export industries tended, of necessity, to produce this result. The position in this regard I hope will now become easier, and there is ground for believing that in the not too distant future it will be possible to redress the balance. The article goes on to say that none of the towns has got very far with its main town centre. That, I think, is true. But I should be very surprised if it were otherwise. The construction of a town centre at any time, let alone in these difficult days, could scarcely proceed as appreciably as the development of the main fields of housing and factory construction. But in point of fact, following a great deal of work on drawing boards in back rooms, proposals for town centres have been received and indeed a start on their actual construction has been made in many cases. I want to refer particularly to Hemel Hempstead, Corby, Welwyn, Crawley, Harlow and Peterlee. In each of those towns the necessary site works have begun, and in three of them buildings are actually going up.
The noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest, in dealing with the Article in The Times, referred also to the question of low density planning. That same article refers to low density planning and speaks of a garden suburb policy. Her Majesty's Government, and indeed the corporations, readily agree that such a policy (if either wished to pursue it, which neither does) would involve a great waste of land, unnecessary expense in regard to services and drainage, to which the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, referred, and long trips for the housewife. The position to-clay is very different. The fact is that the corporations are working to densities which compare very favourably indeed with densities of modern urban development. Broadly speaking, the aim at the present moment is a density of at least 13 houses to the acre, and in the case of many current proposals this figure is being exceeded. Speaking generally, I should have thought that a figure of 12 houses to the acre would hardly produce a garden suburb.
I have deviated from my main argument to deal with those points that the noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest raised from The Times. May I go back to the original question of industry, to which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, rightly devoted some attention? Not all the new towns will require the provision

1235
of additional industry under the ægis of the corporation. With regard to the others, the position is that up to the end of last month just over a million and a quarter square feet of factory space occupied by 56 firms had been completed in the new towns, and just over a million and a third square feet will be occupied by 28 firms and is under construction at the moment. I am not suggesting for a moment that this is all we need. We have had our successes—I think Crawley and Hemel Hempstead would meet with the noble Lord's approval—but I will not go so far as to say we have had failures in the others.
I am asked by one noble Lord what we are doing to increase the appeal for industry to go to the new towns. My Lords, the answer is everything possible; but it is obviously not enough. That appeal must be increased. I hope that this debate and what your Lordships have said, and any thing that I can now add to the appeal, will have some effect in encouraging industry to settle in these new towns. We need to encourage industry to do that. I am thinking particularly of the towns around London, and of Peterlee in County Durham. Industry and all types of employment have nothing to lose and everything to gain if their workers do not exhaust themselves by long journeys in crowded transport to and from their work. In the new towns they can be given good houses and decent living conditions. The industries and the workers who have gone there so far have not only contributed to the financial and social success of their towns but have themselves no cause whatever to regret it. All our evidence from all the towns points to that. It is vital in the interests of all concerned, employers, workers and Government, that these facts should be known and that the trend of industry towards the new towns should be increased.
I now come to the next subject which I think caused most discussion this afternoon—nearly all noble Lords referred to it—and that is the question of communal facilities, as I suppose they can be called in the jargon of to-day. No one would dispute for one moment that the provision of houses, factories, homes and working places in the new towns, though fundamental, is clearly not enough. There must be communal facilities where
1236
people can chat and lean over the garden fence, and engage in sport, recreation and worship. In easier times a great deal of these facilities would have been provided through voluntary bodies. There is, of course, still room for more work by them. Let me emphasise one or two points which might interest your Lordships in regard to what has been done so far from the communal aspect. Ten of the twelve new towns have started or will very soon start making provision for community centres or community halls. Nine centres or halls have already been completed and eight are under construction.
The provision of churches is of particular interest. I referred to that a few moments ago. One is already completed and nine are under construction. Those include Anglican, Methodist, Baptist and Congregational churches, one for the Salvation Army and a Roman Catholic church under construction or at least being planned. In times when we read of churches being pulled down or burnt and religion being denied to those who would have it, there is some pride to be taken from the fact that we are busy building churches and providing facilities for people to worship as they wish. I emphasise that, because these new towns have produced the ingredients for what may be an encouraging future. There has been great co-operation between the various religious denominations. The planning and siting of churches and the general conduct of religious planning in the new towns has been conducted on a markedly friendly atmosphere.
I want to make one remark now which I think may be news to your Lordships and I hope will give encouragement to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. My right honourable friend has given this question of community buildings his personal attention for some time, and I am glad to say that, as a result, he has been able to conclude arrangements with the other Ministers concerned whereby licences for substantially more expenditure, of the order of £1½ million in the next eighteen months, will be allocated to churches, church halls and other community buildings in new housing projects, including those in new towns. I am certain that that will meet with the noble Lord's approval.
I mentioned the question of public houses, which was once a matter of fairly

1237
acute, I will not say "bitter," controversy in regard to tied or free houses. I have been into two of the licensed premises in the new towns. Speaking for myself, I must say that I found them remarkably uncosy; but I suppose it is better that they should be in keeping with modern architecture rather than with "Ye Olde Tudor House." There is one remarkable public house which is neither tied nor free, but is supplied by three rival breweries, and it will be interesting to see how that experiment finally works out.
These new towns offer a wonderful opportunity to the planners and architects, and I join with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in deploring any possibility of a standard type of new town architecture in the mass, just as we saw in the mass of flats which were put up in the bigger cities in the twenty or thirty years before the war. There is a wonderful opportunity in these towns for the local inhabitants and the local authorities to come forward as patrons of the arts. All the old towns, such as Bruges, Ravenna, Norwich and Winchester, were great patrons of the arts, which would not have flourished had the burghers and the rich and the poor of these great cities not patronised and fostered them. I very much hope that when they settle down the new towns will give some encouragement to sculptors and painters to come and beautify them. Harlow, one of the new towns, did, I think, buy Miss Barbara Hepworth's statue which stood outside the South Bank Exhibition. I think it was called Contrapuntal Forms," and in my view it is a perfectly horrible piece of work. That is a strictly personal opinion, and in putting it forward it may be that I am inspired by a somewhat smug pride as a citizen of the Borough of St. Marylebone, which has recently set up on a public site the statue of the Madonna and Child by Jacob Epstein which I—and I am glad to think many others also—regard as the finest piece of public sculpture which has been put up in London since the Charles I statue was erected at Charing Cross.
I turn now to the extremely interesting subject of mixed development. The last thing we want in connection with these new towns is to have one type of person making up the bulk of the population. Consider, for a moment, two old towns
1238
which are roughly of the same size—arid, as it happens, the size we are talking about—Exeter and Gloucester. I take them as examples because, as I say, they are about the same size, each having a population of somewhere in the neighbourhood of 67,000. Both have great and ancient histories. Both have seen great industrial developments of varying sizes. I think they may well be taken as not a bad parallel to our new towns. They have each a strong corporate sense which they owe as much as anything to the fact that the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, the duke and the dustman have all lived alongside one another, drunk together at the same licensed premises, served on the same magisterial bench, and sat on the same borough council. If you did not have that you would have no soul in a town—on that we are ail agreed. But this corporate feeling is not so easy to achieve as all that. Lord Lawson talked about neighbourliness and corporate life, and Lord Hudson mentioned lack of any reference to this in the Report. I am bound to confess that I have not gone through the Report carefully enough to notice that. But I will certainly look at it again to see whether some suggestion can be put forward to ensure that a reference is included next year.
Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor talked about balance of the population. You cannot tot these things up mathematically, and say how many butchers, bakers and candlestick makers and so on you need in each particular town. But I think that, as a matter of fact, we are very near achieving a proper balance in this matter.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: By what method?
LORD MANCROFT: I was going to say that I think we are achieving it, but I do not know whether I can tell the noble Lord by what method. I have a suspicion that it may well be that there has been a considerable element of luck in this. I think, however, that the planning of the type of houses has also had its effect. It would be no use saying, first of all, that you want so many butchers and bakers, doctors and the rest of it. You have to put up houses, and houses of the proper sizes and types to meet the needs of industry, the needs

1239
of commerce, and the demand for doctors and so on. So I think that in the housing programme you have some means of keeping the balance of population roughly in the proportion you want—if you want a proportion, and I think you must have it. That, I am afraid, is the only answer which I can give the noble Lord upon that. It is not, I admit, a conclusive answer.
In connection with this question, however, I have some figures for one of the new towns, Crawley, which I think are interesting. These show that 17 per cent. of the male householders at Crawley consist of professional people, industrial directors and managers, people of the managerial classes generally, executives and public officials. Some 62 per cent. of the population consist of foremen, clerical workers and skilled craftsmen, and 21 per cent. of semi-skilled and unskilled workers. Those are the figures for Crawley, and I am afraid that they are the only ones that I have in this connection. The interesting point about it is that those figures are almost exactly the same as the figures for the whole of the country, so it looks as though we are getting roughly the right answer. Let me hasten to add that I do not want to be complacent about this. I am not suggesting for one moment that we can afford to sit back and allow matters to take their course. I agree with noble Lords who have put this forward that if we are to keep this proportion as we want, we must not only seek to encourage industry to go to these towns, but must encourage our own friends, doctors and lawyers and so on, to live there, in order that the balance is kept right—that is, kept roughly as it is in Exeter and Gloucester which, after all, as I have said, are not bad parallels to these new towns. I repeat, I do not want to be complacent about this. I am not certain that we have found a proper answer to the problem, but I will look very carefully again at what the noble Lord has said about this matter. I will look at the figures and at our plans, with a view to seeing whether everything is being done that can be done.
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: Relating it to the rent?
LORD MANCROFT: I talked just now about the size of houses. I certainly
1240
agree that that should be related to the rent. The two matters are very closely related.
LORD GIFFORD: May I interrupt for the moment and put this to the noble Lord? The new town of Crawley is, perhaps, different from some of the other new towns because it is being built in and out of the existing town. It was a town which had a very large professional element in its population before the new town project was started, and an analysis at the present time might show a percentage which would give a false impression regarding the numbers of professional people who have gone there.
LORD MANCROFT: It might, of course. That is a perfectly valid point. I think each town varies a great deal. I took the case of Crawley because it is the one town in respect of which the figures chanced to be available. I do not suggest that there is any great satisfaction to be drawn from the fact that we have produced, apparently, what is roughly the correct proportion in this case. I entirely agree with noble Lords as to the necessity of getting this balance right. At the same time, I may perhaps go so far as to say that, while it would seem that we are on the right lines, I recognise the need for examining these matters very carefully.
I think the provision of more new towns was the next subject which was raised, and I will try to deal with that. I am afraid that I must, with apologies, give almost the same answer to Lord Silkin as I gave him when he put forward a request for more national parks when we discussed that topic a few weeks ago.
LORD SILKIN: I did not want any more national parks.
LORD MANCROFT: I must be mistaken—on second thoughts, I think it was Lord Chorley. I feel that for the time being we should try to make the existing new towns work really well. Here we see a very bold experiment—and all credit should be given to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for the part he took in it. Apart from the great extra cost which would be involved in embarking on new schemes, it must be remembered that we had not attempted for some 500 years such a

1241
task as this building of new towns, complete, whole towns, in particularly difficult conditions. We know that we have made some mistakes, and we can claim that we have met with some successes. But let us, in a sense, sit back for a bit. As I have said, these new towns cost a great deal. I am not advocating a policy of inaction, I am saying. "Let us be content with the scheme as it is for the time being." The time may come when we shall be able to see our way to further developments of this character; but let us now devote our energies to making these new towns work really well. In this connection, let us bear in mind that we have not entirely neglected old town development. I am not suggesting for one moment—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, perhaps pushed his case a little bit high on this point—that we want to go back and rebuild slums. But there is a happy medium. There are in the big cities re-housing schemes which are a compromise between the old slumdom and the new towns. It is a different aspect of the housing effort, and a different aspect of the social problem, and it is taking much of our energies at the moment. Therefore, I must answer this question about the possibility of more new towns fairly and categorically, and say that I can hold out no hope whatever, at the moment, of any further new towns being considered.
I was asked about the actual machinery of the New Towns Act, which we inherited from our predecessors. The question was raised whether we thought it was working efficiently. The fact remains, of course, that if it is not working efficiently it will require legislation to put it eight. I was asked whether I thought there was not some internecine strife between Government Departments. I do not suppose there has ever been a day in our Parliamentary Sessions when some Opposition spokesman has not cheerfully suggested that there is a suspicion of such strife and a Government spokesman has stoutly denied it. I would not cross my heart and say that one Department has not occasionally clashed its interest in this subject with that of another Department. But I can say that Her Majesty's Government are wholeheartedly behind this scheme. They inherited it; they have taken it on, and they are wholeheartedly supporting it. It is to their interest lo do everything they possibly can to see that
1242
it works. If there is internecine strife between Departments—which I do not for one moment admit—then I am sure that the noble Lord's words will have put a little conscience into some people—sufficient to make certain that the Government Departments which are concerned with this matter will go forward in future as one Department.
My Lords, I am afraid that I have been an unconscionably long time in replying to this debate. I have not answered the question which was put to me on the subject of Gatwick—and let me say at once that I am not going to attempt to tackle that question to-day. It is far too big a question to deal with in a debate like this; it involves too many considerations and, moreover, is a little outside the scope of this debate. I would, however, remind the House that this question of Gatwick in relation to these new towns is attracting the greatest consideration from the Government.
The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, read an extract from the South Wales Argus of June 19. He was good enough to give me a quick glance at it before we came into the House. I had heard about the article some days back, and was not vastly impressed by what was going on. I did not think a good case had been made out, but I will refresh my memory. I am given to understand that a deputation is coming from that part of the world to the Ministry, and I will certainly look at the correspondence again and read the article again, if the noble Lord will be good enough to lend it to me afterwards. I will make certain that if anything has gone wrong and can be put right, it shall be put right.
Schools are making good progress, but nothing to be complacent about. Altogether, eight schools have been built and seventeen are building. Medical services are adequate, but again, nothing to be complacent about. I suppose the answer is that, to a doctor like the noble Lord, Lord Haden-Guest, there is no such thing as an adequate service, because he always wants perfection.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: I never asked for perfection. I am a realist.
LORD MANCROFT: The noble Lord wants the next best thing and we give him the best we can. In the same way,

1243
the educationist wants as many schools as possible. These are conflicting claims. As I have said, we are making pretty steady progress, but these two questions are uppermost in our minds.
I will not keep your Lordships much longer. This has been an interesting and most useful discussion, and I think that all the speeches made this afternoon have been extremely fair. The technical points that I have not been able to answer—and I am afraid there are many—I will certainly have looked at. I repeat what I said at the beginning of my remarks. We want to do everything we can and show every encouragement to people, to communities, to firms, to industries, to come to these new towns—of course, from London, and not from the middle of the country, where they can get a more desirable home: that would spoil the whole conception of the scheme. The Government are not complacent about this scheme, because much remains to be done, and the novelty of the enterprise necessarily raises great problems for local authorities, the corporations themselves, Government Departments and, indeed, for private individuals. I am not suggesting for one moment that we have solved them all. We shall not fail to grapple with them and I hope we shall not fail to solve them.
We are not apologetic, because I think no fair man could say that the machinery which we inherited has rusted in our hands. It is well geared up and has developed considerable, indeed formidable, and, in one or two cases, impressive, momentum. But, like everything else, its future depends on the security and solvency of the country. These two things are linked inextricably. We too often forget how close we ran to economic and financial collapse only eighteen months ago, and our progress must be attuned to that. I think that we can look over the last five years—and the noble Lord, Lord Silkin can look back with us, because he is as much in this as we are—and agree that what we have achieved and are going to achieve is something of which we have to be proud.
5.15 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, this has been a most satisfying debate from my point of view, and I believe from the
1244
point of view of the whole House, because every speaker, without exception, has completely supported the conception of the new towns. If ever this was a Party question—and I do not think it ever was to any considerable extent—it has now risen above Party. We are all proud of this country's achievement in new towns, and every single speaker spoke with the sole desire to make our achievements more successful than ever.
I should like to refer to one or two points that have been raised in the course of the debate. I was interested in, and delighted with, the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson. I should be less than human not to be gratified by the fact that after starting out with the idea of commencing a campaign against the mismanagement and waste of money involved in the new towns, he became, as the result of his investigations, one of their most ardent supporters. I agree with a great deal of what the noble Viscount said. It was useful that he should criticise the form of this report. That is one of those matters about which one might well become complacent. One starts off with an idea of what the report should be, and goes on year after year until shaken up by someone like the noble Viscount. I think he is right. I would remind him, however, that all these reports are not issued at the same time; they are issued from time to time, as they are ready. When I was Minister I thought it would be convenient to have them all published together, rather than have people go along to the Vote Office and ask if such-and-such a report was ready. Since then they have been multiplied in number and increased in size and I imagine that the next volume will be even more unwieldy than this one.
I would make three suggestions. The first is that the Minister should provide an introduction, drawing attention to some of the interesting and salient points in the reports. The second is that there should be an index. I believe that that would answer many of the noble Viscount's difficulties. If there were an index, he could read the pages dealing with that aspect of the new towns in which he is interested; and no others. My third suggestion is that, in addition to publishing the report in one volume, it should be possible for anyone who is interested in one particular town to buy

1245
the relevant report separately. There, is no reason why he should pay 15s. for a large volume when he is interested only in Basildon. The report on Basildon may cost only a 1s., and it ought to be possible to get it for that.
I did not speak about agriculture altogether in disparaging terms. I am a bit of an agriculturist myself, and the last thing I should do would be to speak in slighting terms about agriculture or its importance. It is true that the size of Bracknell had to be curtailed because of representations made on agriculture, but the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, may be aware that, since I left office, representations have been made by the corporation that the reduced size of the town is inadequate for its purpose, and they have now come forward with a fresh application for additional land. I hope that the noble Viscount will not assume that all land devoted to new towns is necessarily depriving agriculture of essential land that it requires. We have to face the fact that the population of these islands is increasing. As between the last census and the last census but one, there was an increase of 1,500,000 people, representing something like 400,000 families. They have got to be housed somewhere. We also have to face the fact that, generally speaking, our towns are overcrowded. The whole trend of modern re-development is (if I may use a most ugly word) to de-congest the towns, thin them out arid provide accommodation for the people outside. Both those operations require additional land; that is unavoidable. All we can do is to ensure that we do not take the best agricultural land. I entirely agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, that that should be our object, where we have a choice, even if it involves using slightly less desirable land for the purpose of new towns or housing. But that is a counsel of perfection.
In my view, the noble Viscount was also right in drawing attention to the fact that a great deal depends upon psychological factors. Nothing was said—although I believe it to be most important—about the importance of the relationship between the people who have been exported to the new towns and the original residents. I can quite understand the reluctance and suspicion, and even the hostility, of the people in the
1246
existing small towns to the idea of taking unknown people into the new towns—people about whom they know nothing in relation to their habits and ways of life, who are not acclimatised to the way of life of the small country town, and who have come from slum areas, and so on. One can also feel sympathy for those who have gone to live in those small towns because they want the peace and quiet of the small place and now find themselves about to be absorbed into a large town with 60,000 or 80,000 population.
It may well be that in the early stages the Ministry, and in particular the Minister, did not pay sufficient attention to the art of public relations. I want to admit quite freely that I made a great mistake in the handling of Stevenage; certainly it could have been done much better. It was just foolish to go to Stevenage—I can say this now, seven years after the event; it is Statute-barred—and try to persuade those people that it was a good thing for them to be bought out at 1939 values, when, if they wanted to acquire other premises, they would have to go out and buy them at the existing market value. Even my persuasiveness was not equal to convincing them that it was a good idea; and shortly after that we had to revise the conception of acquiring land at 1939 values, plus 60 per cent.
We have all learned a good deal in the intervening years about public relations. What has been happening is that the development corporations have taken the existing population into their confidence; they have brought them on to committees, and consulted them about the way in which things are done; they have even put members of the existing organisations on to their committees, and some have been put on to the corporation. The result is that there is a great deal of harmony, and some of those who had been most bitterly hostile to the idea of new towns are now proud of what is being achieved. In particular, the people of Stevenage are now proud of the achievements of the development corporation; and I have little doubt that if a census were taken now of the views of the people of Stevenage about new towns, as compared with what they were when the project there was first started, it would show a great difference. There is another thing of which we can all feel proud—namely, that our people have a

1247
genius for accepting a thing once it is a fait accompli. They may fight and argue and resist as much as they possibly can; but once it is an established fact, then they settle down and do their best to make it a success. That is what has happened in so many of the new towns that have been set up.
I have very little more to say. I may express one regret at the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. I am sorry that he has had to say—I quite understand that those are the instructions he has been given—that there are to be no more new towns for the time being. As I said, and as my noble friend Lord Macdonald said also, the reasons for these new towns still exist. The case for new towns has not been met by the provision of fourteen new towns. I remember that when I introduced the New Towns Bill I was of the opinion that we should need something like twenty new towns to start with, and possibly some more in the next five or ten years. I think that that estimate is not far from the truth to-day. I did not suggest that the alternative was that Manchester would go back to slum-land. I do suggest that in providing new towns we are merely building in the right way and in the right places, as against the alternative of building the wrong way, in the wrong places. If you do not meet the Manchester problem, or the Leeds problem, and the problems of the other towns, by building new towns, or expanding existing towns, you are inevitably driven to building in the bad old way, and creating congestion—not slums, which is a different thing—by building in the wrong places, extending your towns unduly and causing what has been described in the famous Barlow Report as "social and economic problems."
I am grateful for the statement that £1,500,000 is going to be provided for churches and communal buildings.
LORD MANCROFT: For licences.
LORD SILKIN: Yes, for licences. I must qualify my gratitude, because I have to consider how far that amount will go among the fourteen new towns. But it is a gesture, and I am grateful for it. I am quite sure that the Minister, having given his approval in principle to the idea that the new towns need these things, if he should find that more of them are
1248
necessary, will not hesitate to press for more licences for the purpose. I am well aware of the disputes that arise between different Departments, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, that there always have been, and always will be, disputes between Departments. What I was hoping was that, in the case of this great national project, of which we are all proud, and of which we all want to make a success, the Departments would subordinate their own distinctive points of view in the interests of the greater whole.
LORD MANCROFT: I am sure they will.
LORD SILKIN: I hope that they will, and I should like a definite assurance of it. I should like, for instance, a definite assurance from the Board of Trade that they really will go all out to provide the necessary industry. I appreciate that they have their own difficulties, but they have not always been forthcoming, either in giving the necessary certificate for industry in the new towns or in pressing for the necessary building licences. I do not wish to weary your Lordships, but I could quote a number of cases of quite considerable industries which have been anxious to go to the new towns but which have been unable to get the necessary licences and permissions. They could have got them if the Board of Trade had been really helpful. The problem of Gatwick is another point. I quite understand that it is a difficult subject, and I appreciate the noble Lord's reluctance to deal with it in this debate. But it must be settled, and in the meantime it is prejudicing at any rate the further success of one new town. I conclude by expressing my gratitude to all those who have spoken, and for the temperate spirit in which the speeches have been made. With that I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

TEES VALLEY WATER BILL
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
House adjourned at twenty-nine minutes before six o'clock