Sitting of 16 June 1953

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  RUNCORN-WIDNES BRIDGE BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, with an Amendment.
  WARKWORTH HARBOUR BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, with Amendments.

  GATESHEAD EXTENSION BILL [Lords]
  [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.]
  Bill read the Third time and passed, with Amendments.

  CHESHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords>] (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Cement and Bricks, South Wales
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Works what steps he will take to deal with the shortage of cement in South Wales.
    The Minister of Works (Sir David Eccles): The cement industry have arranged imports of Continental cement into South Wales, and supplies are improving.
    Mr. Gower: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that this step will make satisfactory provision for the needs of the building industry in the South Wales area?
    Sir D. Eccles: I hope so; but the expansion in building is, of course, very satisfactory.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Will the Minister exercise any control over the distribution of this cement, or is it left to the industry itself?
    Sir D. Eccles: The industry are responsible for the distribution, but they do consult me from time to time.
    Mr. Peter Freeman: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Belgian cement, which he said was available and of equal quality, is stipulated in any Government contracts to reduce this shortage?
    Sir D. Eccles: The Belgian cement is now up to British standards and no user need be frightened to buy it.
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Works what steps he will take to deal with the shortage of bricks in South Wales.
    Sir D. Eccles: The output of bricks in South Wales is increasing. It is a matter of satisfaction that the demand is high, and with economy in the use of bricks, I hope it can be met.
    Mr. Gower: Is the Minister aware that one brickworks to which I have drawn his attention is in a somewhat precarious position? Will my right hon. Friend bear this in mind in making his plans?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir.

    Building Contracts (Review Committee)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Works if he will appoint a Welsh representative to the Committee to inquire into the method of tendering for contracts by building firms.
    Sir D. Eccles: As I stated on 9th June in reply to the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds), I am not responsible for the appointments to this Committee.
    Mr. Gower: Is there a Welsh representative on this Committee?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have not investigated the provenance of the members of the Committee, but it is a technical committee and one would suppose that the highest professional competence was the quality required.

    Requisitioned Land, Staffordshire and Norfolk
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Works in how many cases of parcels of land requisitioned between 1939 and 1945 by his Department in Staffordshire has

    707
    the compensation rent been increased since 1945; and in how many cases has no increase been granted to the owners.
    Sir D. Eccles: This information is not available. All owners of requisitioned land had the opportunity of applying for an increased compensation rental under the terms of Section 45 of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act, 1945, and Section 9 of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act, 1948.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister aware that quite a number of parcels of land are requisitioned by the Coal Board for the maintenance of miners' hostels? Can he say how long these requisitions will continue and why some of the applications for increases in rent have been granted and some have been refused in similar cases?
    Sir D. Eccles: I am aware of the requisitions for the National Coal Board. If the hon. Member would draw my attention to any special case, I will do my best to look into it.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Works how many acres of land in Staffordshire are at present under requisition by his Department; and for what purposes.
    Sir D. Eccles: Just over 140 acres of land in Staffordshire are held on requisition by my Ministry for hostels, storage depots, Government Offices and a Post Office repair depot.
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Works the total area of land now requisitioned by his Department in the County of Norfolk.
    Sir D. Eccles: One hundred and seventy-two acres of land are held by my Ministry on requisition in Norfolk.

    Coleshill House (Demolition)
    Mr. Croslandasked the Minister of Works whether he was consulted before the historic mansion of Coleshill, Berkshire, was demolished after the recent fire; how far he had powers to prevent the demolition; and what would have been the cost of preserving the fabric of the building as it stood after the fire.
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir. My Department, as well as the Ministry of Housing
    708
    and Local Government, was fully consulted before the remains of Coleshill were demolished. A preservation order can be made under the Ancient Monuments Acts if a monument is in danger from neglect or damage. Coleshill was, however, in a dangerous, as well as a ruinous, condition, and it was decided not to make an order, and no estimate of the cost of preserving the ruins was made.
    Mr. Crosland: Is the Minister aware that Coleshill was a house of quite exceptional architectural quality? Are we to take it from his reply that it was physically quite impossible to have preserved the structure which remained, and which in fact was the whole of the outer structure?
    Sir D. Eccles: The Minister of Housing and Local Government and I both looked at this and came to the conclusion that, as the condition was so dangerous, a preservation order would not help.
    Sir Edward Keeling: As this house was perhaps the most beautiful in all England and experts reported that it could be repaired and was not dangerous except to itself, will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of legislation at some opportunity which would prevent such an irreparable loss to the country?
    Sir D. Eccles: It is a matter of one expert against another. The experts of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and my own held that the structure was not worth preserving in that condition.
    Mr. Stokes: When the Minister says that he and the Minister of Housing and Local Government "looked at it," does that mean that they really looked at the house, or did they look at reports, which is quite a different thing?
    Sir D. Eccles: I often look at historic houses, and care for them very much. AH the same, this was a matter for experts.
    Mr. Stokes: Did the right hon. Gentleman see it?
    Sir D. Eccles: I did not see it. I looked at reports from officers in my Department, whose reputation is well established.

    "Burghers of Calais"
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Works whether he can give an estimate of the cost of moving Rodin's group, the "Burghers of Calais," from its present high pedestal down to a reasonable level.
    Sir D. Eccles: The cost of moving the "Burghers of Calais," including the provision of a new pedestal is estimated at £4,000.
    Dr. Stross: Could the Minister say that, although the sum is not insignificant, he will be able to find the money in this Coronation year and let us look at this very important piece of work?
    Sir D. Eccles: I wish I could, but in fact I have not been able to get the money.

    Social Hall, Cardiff (Licence)
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Minister of Works what reasons have led him to refuse permission for the building of a hall for St. Peter's Parish, Cardiff; and when he expects to be able to reverse his decision.
    Sir D. Eccles: This proposed hall, as I understand it, is intended primarily for social and recreational purposes. Owing to the need to conserve building resources, I cannot license this work for the time being. I regret that I am unable to say when a licence is likely to be issued.
    Mr. Callaghan: As the hall is needed for the life of the Catholic community in Cardiff and is of great importance, can the right hon. Gentleman give a date on which he can get his officials to propose some modified scheme which will enable a hall of this kind to be built?
    Sir D. Eccles: I quite appreciate that the hall is very much needed, and I suppose that if a scheme for under £5,000 were put forward we should be able to look at it. But, as the building is classified as for recreational or social purposes, I am afraid that it comes under the £5,000 maximum.
    Mr. Callaghan: If it were classified for any other purpose, would the Minister care to say what sort of purpose would bring it outside the limit?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, if the hall was in fact a church it could be put before the Churches Committee and take its chance in competition with other churches and chapels in Wales.

    London Parks (Litter)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Works what steps he is taking to diminish the amount of litter left in the parks and discourage the offenders.
    Sir D. Eccles: Many extra litter containers were put in the central parks. These have been used, but more than 300 tons of litter have been left lying about since 1st June. For the work of clearing up I have called in men from the outer parks, the Festival Gardens and contractors. The amount of litter left every night is a public disgrace. When an offence is so general the remedy lies in stirring the conscience of the public, which is better done by parents and school teachers than by the police.
    Mr. Stokes: I am sure I am right in suggesting to the Minister that everybody in the House will support him in any measure which he takes to stop the litter, but is it not possible for him to introduce some ad hoc fine to deter people? It is something I tried to do but was prevented from doing at the time.
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that the anti-litter campaign has had great success in the countryside, where beauty spots are not in such a state as they used to be. My own view is that we must have the same sort of campaign in London. I really do not think that picking one person out of a thousand and fining him will do much good.
    Mr. Vane: Will my right hon. Friend not agree that however disgraceful it is that this amount of litter is left about in London streets every night, it is a little hard for us to reproach people until we practise what we preach and do not throw so much paper on the Floor here?
    Mr. G. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that his reply that teachers and parents can best cure this problem is rather misleading, because it is the parents who leave the litter much more than the children?
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland

    711
    (Mr. Vane). If Members had seen the state of the Abbey at 5 o'clock on 2nd June they would understand what my hon. Friend meant. I think we have got to educate the next generation; I do not think there is a quick solution to what is obviously a dirty habit widely practised.

  CORONATION

    Stands, Apsley House
    Mr. McAddenasked the Minister of Works the cost of the stands erected at Apsley House; how much was received from the sale of tickets for these stands; and what payment was made to the Duke of Wellington.
    Sir D. Eccles: The official stands erected in the forecourt of Apsley House cost £12,500. The receipts from the sale of seats amounted to £22,150. Although the garden of Apsley House is vested in the Minister of Works, the Duke of Wellington has the right to occupy and maintain it. A concession was granted to erect stands in this garden. My Department made no payment to the Duke but was paid £6,000 by the concessionaire in respect of its interest.

    Decorations (Removal)
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Works if, when determining the duration of the Coronation decorations, he will have regard to the interests of seaside resorts, particularly those on the East Coast, which were the victims of the disastrous floods and whose economic recovery is already difficult owing to the falling-off of visitors.
    Sir D. Eccles: I fully appreciate the difficulties of the East Coast resorts this year, and in deciding how long to retain the Coronation decorations I try to keep in mind all interests concerned. But, I must point out that Her Majesty's Coronation affords the general public the chance of a lifetime, and that to treat it otherwise would arouse justifiable resentment.
    Mr. Evans: Has the Minister had representations from the local authorities on the East Coast? Is he aware that there is no date specified in the Question and that we are hoping he will exercise reasonable discretion in this
    712
    matter because these local authorities are having a very difficult time?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have had some representations from those in the amusements business and I am keeping that in mind.

    Chairs and Stools (Sale)
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Works when it is proposed to offer the stools for sale used in Westminster Abbey at the Coronation ceremony; and if he will state their price, the method of disposal, and to whom applications should be made.
    Sir D. Eccles: I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a copy of the text of the notice which was published on 12th June. Guests who attended the Coronation Service will be given the opportunity to purchase chairs and stools.
    Mr. Stokes: May we know what they are to be charged? Is it true that they are to be charged £7 each? Does the £7, or whatever the amount is, bear any relation to the cost of production?
    Sir D. Eccles: The charges appeared in the newspapers on 12th June——
    Mr. Stokes: I did not see them.
    Sir D. Eccles: —and the right hon. Gentleman obviously did not see them. The chairs will cost £7 10s. each and the stools £4 7s. 6d. each, including packing and delivery. No profit is made by my Department.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: Can my right hon. Friend say how those prices compare with prices charged at the last Coronation?
    Sir D. Eccles: Obviously they are greater because costs have gone up and there is Purchase Tax.
    Mr. Murray: Will the Minister say what was the cost of these chairs and stools? Is there a profit?
    Sir D. Eccles: The cost was within a shilling or two of the prices charged.
    Captain Duncan: Can my hon. Friend arrange to inform hon. Members how they should apply for these chairs?
    Sir D. Eccles: That information is contained in the notice that was published in the newspapers, and which will now be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Stokes: As the right hon. Gentleman says that this is the cost price, will he cause a close examination to be made into the terms of the contract? Having regard to what the stools and chairs consist of, to the ordinary person this does not seem a reasonable price at all. Will the Minister have the matter looked into?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have looked into it. On the contrary, I think that, compared with ordinary contracts for furniture, of which my Ministry have great experience, these stools and chairs are made of very good materials. They are very well made, and I think that on the whole the price is reasonable.
    Mr. Stokes: I do not.
    Following is the notice:
    Coronation: Sale of Abbey Chairs, etc.
    The Ministry of Works wishes to inform guests who attended the Coronation Service in Westminster Abbey that the chairs and stools used by the Congregation may now be purchased. It may not be possible to offer more than one chair or stool to each applicant. In considering applications for chairs preference will be given to those who occupied them.
    Chairs will cost £7 10s. 0d. each and stools £4 7s. 6d. each, including packing and delivery. Applications should be sent, not later than 30th June, 1953, to: —
    The Controller of Supplies,
    Ministry of Works,
    Great Westminster House,
    Horseferry Road,
    S.W.1.
    The envelope should be marked "Abbey furniture." Payment should not accompany the application.
    Applications may also be made for the purchase of carpets and damask frontals. Preference will be given to applications from churches.

    Illuminations (Traffic Congestion)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Works whether, in order to reduce traffic congestion in the West End of London, he will extend the hours of floodlighting by one hour nightly.
    Sir D. Eccles: I am advised that this measure would be likely to increase the traffic congestion.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the Minister trying to find some solution to the problem of this mixture of chaos and
    714
    paralysis which comes over the West End of London every night? Is he aware that the trouble is basically caused by the fact that he is expecting a tremendous number of people to avail themselves of what he himself described as "the chance of a lifetime" within dates and times which are excessively limited?
    Sir D. Eccles: Of course the attraction of the decorations has astonished everybody, but I think that if we kept the illuminations on after 12 o'clock that would not help traffic. Indeed, I think it would keep up a lot of children who are already out of bed rather too late. The question of how to manage the traffic is one for my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary.

    RAINFALL (RESEARCH)
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether he is aware of the need for further research into the possibilities of regulating the rainfall on this country by making certain rain clouds discharge their rain over the sea; and what action he is taking?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson): As part of the research into the processes of rainfall in this country experiments have been carried out from time to time on the seeding of clouds. The results of these experiments, and of similar experiments in other countries, have shown that certain types of cloud can be made to produce rain and, conversely, that in some circumstances limited sheets of cloud can be dispersed. We are, however, still a long way from a complete understanding of the physics of natural rain.
    The hon. Member's objective of making certain rain clouds discharge their rain over the sea would involve further complications. I am advised that, because of the natural processes giving rise to the extensive cloud and rain areas which are common here, any practicable application of the present techniques of dispersing cloud could have little effect in protecting any particular area of this country from rain. Developments in other countries are being closely followed by the

    715
    Meteorological Office, which will also continue its investigations into the basic processes.
    Mr. de Freitas: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I know full well that the present technique would not succeed, hence my Question about the need for further research? Would the hon. Gentleman remind the Lord President that however good our climate here may be, and the excellence of its products, animal and vegetable, shows that it is a good climate, we should not neglect the possibility of mitigating the occasional extremes of excessive rain and drought?
    Mr. Molson: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this process is more effective in causing rain to fall where it is required than in preventing rain from falling where it is not required. My noble Friend is of the opinion that in this country we have not the same urgent need for research into this method as may perhaps exist in other countries.
    Mr. Assheton: Has my hon. Friend thought of the appalling responsibilities that would fall upon any Minister who had to decide whether it was to rain or not on a particular place?
    Mr. Molson: I have no doubt at all that that is a problem which will present itself at some time in the future, but at the present time we are still quite unable to make rain fall or to prevent it from falling where it does.
    Mr. Mikardo: Will the hon. Gentleman advise the Lord President that future experiments should be concentrated into periods when Test matches are being played?
    Mr. Molson: I am afraid that in the nature of scientific experiments it is difficult to limit experiments to the time when these sporting events are taking place.
    Mr. Hollis: Even though it may seem that there is a good deal too much rain in London and Nottingham, there are other parts of the country, where there is not sufficient rain. If my hon. Friend has any to dispose of, will he put some of it on my garden?

    NATIONAL SERVICE (EXEMPTIONS)
    Mr. G. Longdenasked the Minister of Labour whether exemption from National Service is granted to men who enter the service of the Merchant Navy, a foreign airline or a British airline.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Harold Watkinson): No, Sir; but men serving in the Merchant Navy are not in present circumstances called up for service in the Forces so long as they remain in that employment. This does not apply to men employed by British or foreign airlines.

    FACTORY INSPECTORATE
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour to give consideration to the recruiting of workers in factories to act as assistants to the factory inspectorate in the periods between the visits made by the inspectors themselves.
    Mr. Watkinson: No, Sir.
    Dr. Stross: Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that such a practice, which is now carried out in some other countries in Europe, would be of real benefit and assist the inspectorate itself?
    Mr. Watkinson: No. My short answer did not mean that we have not looked at this matter very carefully. As I am sure the hon. Member knows, there is, and has to be, plainly exhibited in every factory the address of the local factory inspector. We feel that that is the right sort of contact; and the appointing of a member of the staff, whether a worker or one of the management, as a sort of deputy factory inspector would require new legislation and would, in our view, be quite impracticable.

  SCOTLAND

    Land Drainage, Campbeltown
    Major McCallumasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the growing number of unemployed men in the burgh of Campbeltown and the loss to food production by the constant flooding of good agricultural ground

    717
    because of the failure to keep the Backs Water and the Macrinhanish Burns clear, he will arrange for this unemployed labour to be used for this urgent land drainage work.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. McNair Snadden): I regret that in the absence of agreement among the proprietors concerned on the financing and execution of a scheme of drainage works, my right hon. Friend has no powers to undertake this work.
    Major McCallum: Is not my hon. Friend aware that if something is not done about this chaos in the drainage of this area more and more land—the best land in Argyllshire, excellent farming land—will be going out of use; and could he not press the local authorities, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and owners to come to some agreement so that after years of negotiation work might be started on this project?
    Mr. Snadden: My hon. and gallant Friend will know that works of this nature would require compulsory powers which we do not at present possess. We are hoping to introduce a Bill—I hope next Session—which will give compulsory powers which will enable this work to be carried out.
    Mr. Manuel: Is the Joint Undersecretary of State aware that in many areas in Scotland we have been fobbed off for far too long with this answer that the present legislation is quite unsuitable. Where there is a private individual who owns land in a flooded area he can stop the whole scheme. Therefore, could the hon. Gentleman not do something to give us soon legislation with some teeth in it in order that we could greatly aid productivity in these agricultural areas which are now being periodically flooded?
    Mr. Snadden: I am aware of these difficulties. One difficulty is that to provide compulsory powers we have to solve some extremely complicated problems but, as I said, we hope to be able to introduce a Bill next Session.

    Special Constabulary
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many special constables have been enrolled
    718
    during the last 12 months; how many hours training is expected of these men; and to what extent volunteers are still required.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Henderson Stewart): During the 12 months ended 31st May, 1953, 361 men and 113 women were enrolled in the Special Constabulary, which is 3,897 short of its present authorised establishment of 13,157. The arrangements for training special con-Stables vary from force to force.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: Arising out of that reply, which shows that there is still a considerable need for volunteers, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he is satisfied that those who do volunteer are given sufficient opportunity and encouragement to make themselves really efficient?
    Mr. Stewart: I think that the chief constables have varying experiences on that matter and that some of them are proposing to alter their schemes with the object which my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind.

    Highlands and Islands Transport (Report)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes to take on the Report of the Cameron Committee on transport in the Highlands and Islands.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: I hope that an increase in the efficiency of the transport system, which was the Committee's first recommendation, will result from the passing of the Transport Act. The Committee's recommendations relating to transport charges are primarily matters for the British Transport Commission, who have still to prepare a scheme for railway freight charges.
    Mr. Grimond: May I ask the Minister to bear in mind that it is over two years since this Committee reported, and the vital part of their Report was that dealing with the transport charges? As this is the basic problem of the whole of the Highland area, cannot the Government take steps to implement their recommendations?
    Mr. Stewart: Their first recommendation was not that but that the transport system should be made more efficient. The point just made by the hon. Member is a matter for the British Transport Commission under the Transport Act.
    Mr. Callaghan: May I ask the Minister under which Section of the Transport Act the proposals which he has in mind to overcome the problem in Scotland appear?
    Mr. Stewart: If the hon. Member would do me the kindness of reading the few remarks I have made at odd times on the Transport Bill he will get the answer.
    Hon. Members: No.
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton: Will the Minister bear in mind that this Committee sat to consider a state of affairs which was serious over two years ago? Since then nothing whatever has been done to alleviate the position. Will he treat this as a matter of considerable urgency?
    Mr. Stewart: In our view, and I think it is justified, the action taken in the new Transport Act is the best step forward towards better transport.
    Mr. Callaghan: Will the Minister particularise and, very shortly and concisely, tell us in one sentence what proposals he has in mind?
    Mr. Stewart: I should need to occupy a few moments longer than that to show what advantages there are in the Act for the Highlands.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: May I ask whether questions can be asked from the Front Bench without exerting too much pressure on the time allotted to back bench Members?
    Mr. Speaker: I am sorry, but I cannot spend more than a certain amount of time on each Question.
    Mr. MacMillan: The reflection was not on the Chair, but on the Front Bench.

    Tuberculosis
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of new cases of pulmonary tuberculosis notified
    720
    in Glasgow in the first quarter of 1953, and how this compares with each quarter of 1952 and 1951.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Commander T. D. Galbraith): There were 622 notifications of pulmonary tuberculosis in the first quarter of 1953, that is a higher figure than in any of the quarters in 1951 or 1952 except in the second quarter of 1951, when there were 644 notifications. With permission, I shall circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Rankin: Do not the figures given by the Joint Under-Secretary indicate that, in spite of all that is alleged to be done, no effective action is yet being taken to reduce the figures which are obviously on the increase? When do the Government propose to take effective action to deal with this increasing scourge?
    Commander Galbraith: The hon. Member must know that, as the result of new procedures, notifications are bound to be more frequent than in the past.
    Following are the details:

    NOTIFICATIONS OF RESPIRATORY TUBERCULOSIS IN GLASGOW BY QUARTERS SINCE 1ST JANUARY. 1951

    Quarter

    …

    …

    1951

    1952

    1953

    First

    …

    …

    567

    547

    622

    Second

    …

    …

    644

    605

    —

    Third

    …

    …

    514

    519

    —

    Fourth

    …

    …

    496

    595

    —

    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many beds are available, per 100 new notifications, for the treatment of pulmonary tuberculosis in the whole of Scotland, and in the area under the Western Regional Hospital Board.
    Commander Galbraith: Taking beds available at the end of 1952, wherever situated, and notifications during that year, the ratio was about 82 beds per 100 notifications for Scotland as a whole, and about 77 beds per 100 notifications for the Western Region alone.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the Joint Under-Secretary aware that the incidence of T.B. is most heavily felt in the area of the Western Regional Hospital Board? What

    721
    does he propose to do to give more hospital accommodation in the area where the disease is pressing most severely?
    Commander Galbraith: It is really not so much a question of getting beds as finding nurses to staff them. If the hon. Gentleman can help us we shall be most grateful.

    Anglo-Russian Trade (Herring)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland to make a further statement on the negotiations for the sale of herring to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: Negotiations are still proceeding.

    Agricultural Workers, Crofter Counties
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the present number of people employed in agriculture in the crofter counties; and how it compares with last year.
    Mr. Snadden: The latest figures available from the agricultural returns show the numbers of persons employed as farm workers in these counties at December, 1952, as 14,404 compared with 14,377 at December, 1951. The figures for June, 1952, and June, 1951, were 14,120 and 14,875, respectively.
    Mr. Grimond: Will the hon. Gentleman say whether he is satisfied, in view of these figures, that we are getting sufficient labour in the crofter counties? If he is not satisfied, will he look again at the existing legislation as it applies to these counties where there are special difficulties?
    Mr. Snadden: It is true that the decline in the crofter counties is greater than the decline in the rest of Scotland. It is 5·4 per cent. as against 1·8 per cent. That causes us concern. At the same time, we have no evidence of acute labour shortage, but we are watching the position carefully.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Has my hon. Friend any figures for shepherds and stockmen, especially on hill farms?
    Mr. Snadden: The Question asked for the number of people employed. I have
    722
    given the figures which cover all employees in agriculture in the crofter counties. I could not answer the hon. Gentleman without looking up a lot of figures.
    Mr. MacLeod: But my hon. Friend will be aware of the anxiety expressed by farmers about the difficulty in getting shepherds to live in out-of-the-way places, especially in the crofter counties?
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. The Joint Under-Secretary said that he could not give a full answer without looking up a lot of figures. Is not that his job?
    Mr. Snadden: I answered the Question on the Order Paper. The supplementary was a different question.

    Trade Names Committee (Shetland Wool)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what answer he intends to send to the Shetland Trade Names Committee in response to representations made last autumn on the subject of Shetland wool.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: My right hon. Friend is considering the comments made by the Trade Names Committee and by the other bodies whom he has consulted on the Report on this matter made by the Advisory Panel on the Highlands and Islands, and he hopes to write to the Committee shortly.
    Mr. Grimond: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that these representations were made last autumn and the Trade Names Committee would be most grateful if the answer could be hastened?
    Mr. Stewart: I think that the hon. Gentleman is a little wrong. The secretary of the Trade Names Committee has confirmed to us that no representations were made last autumn about Shetland wool, but I do not want to argue that rather small point.

    Forth Road Bridge (Land Acquisition)
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions have taken place since 28th April last between himself and the Minister of Transport on the question of the acquisition of land to permit the construction of a Forth Road Bridge; and with what results.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: As the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board are already empowered to acquire land, it has not been necessary for my right hon. Friend to discuss this matter with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.
    Mr. Hamilton: Has the Secretary of State familiarised himself with the able case put forward by the Lord Provost of Edinburgh on 28th April at a meeting which the Secretary of State did not attend? Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to give an undertaking that if at the forthcoming meeting in Edinburgh the Minister of Transport should give the same answer as he gave on 28th April the Secretary of State will not meekly accept it?
    Mr. Stewart: There is to be another meeting which will be attended, I hope, by my right hon. Friend, with the Minister of Transport and other people in Edinburgh, on 19th June when the whole matter will be properly considered.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: May we take it that the Secretary of State will do everything in his power to deal with anything that is delaying the construction of this much needed bridge?

    East Kilbride (Factories)
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what conclusions he has reached about the industrial future of the new town of East Kil-bride as a balanced community in view of official suggestions that the demand for products of the Rolls-Royce factory there will taper off after 1954, which are disclosed in paragraphs 951 and 976 of the Minutes of Evidence taken before Sub-Committee B as published in the Seventh Report of the Select Committee on Estimates.
    Commander Galbraith: Since the evidence referred to by my hon. Friend was given to the Select Committee, increased military and civil requirements for new aero-engines and aero-engine repairs suggest the continuation of a high level of employment at the Rolls-Royce factory. In general, the actual and prospective employment opportunities at East Kilbride are likely to be adequate to the new town's requirements for some time ahead.
    Mr. Maitland: Is not my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that these increased orders that have come in since the evidence referred to are derived very largely from offshore purchases and other uncertain and speculative prospects of civil purchases which are by no means certain to last and does not he agree that to base the central industry of a new town on the prospect of offshore purchases is most unsatisfactory?
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much of the 3 million square feet of factory space, for which industrial firms have inquired, at East Kilbride has been let, apart from that taken by the Rolls-Royce factory; and if he will state the total area of factory space let within the designated area since 1st January, 1952, and the number of workers likely to be directly employed as a result.
    Commander Galbraith: Excluding the Rolls-Royce factory, about 5,000 square feet of factory space have been taken up at East Kilbride since 1st January, 1952: the total area of factory space taken up since the same date is 430,000 square feet and the number of persons likely to be employed in the accommodation so far made available is estimated at 3,100.
    Mr. Maitland: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that this very small advance in the attraction of industry to East Kilbride points directly to a grave unbalance in the development of the new town? Does he want the new town to become a dormitory town and eventually a slum or a balanced community?
    Commander Galbraith: A balanced community.

    Livestock Grazing (Western Islands)
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will introduce legislation to amend the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing (Scotland) Acts so that where grazing grounds are accessible only by water the cost of providing boats can come under the Act.
    Mr. Snadden: I appreciate the difficulties and the enterprise shown in developing grazing grounds to which there is access by water only, but I am afraid

    725
    there could be no prospects of an amendment of the Livestock Rearing Act as suggested.
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton: May I ask my hon. Friend whether, apart from the Benula grazing grounds, particulars of which he has, there are not thousands of acres of grazing land in Scotland which could be used for livestock rearing, if such access were possible?
    Mr. Snadden: I quite appreciate what the noble Lord has in mind, but the suggestion made in this Question is alien to the provisions of the Act, which are designed to give grants in respect of the improvement of the static things about a farm, and not of expendable machinery. We have to bear that in mind.
    Mr. Manuel: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a problem which arises mainly in Western Scotland, and, while he has told the House about the difficulties under the present Act, could he not consider discussing with his right hon. Friend the question of the Department of Agriculture supplying craft suitable for the conveyance of livestock to these islands offshore, which would be a great help to the West Coast?
    Mr. Snadden: That is a different question, but I will take note of it.

    Highland Railways (Electrification)
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the recent resolution of the Inverness County Council concerning the electrification of Highland railways, which has been sent to him; and whether he will initiate a conference between the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board and the Railway Executive to explore this question.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: The resolution to which my noble Friend refers has not been sent to my right hon. Friend. I understand, however, that the County Council are in touch with the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board and with the Railway Executive.
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton: May I say that I am sure that the resolution will be sent, if it has not been sent already? May I now ask my hon. Friend if he does not think that, if the very excellent suggestion of the Inverness County Council is implemented, it will save the country a great deal of coal and transport costs, and be a very good thing?
    Mr. Stewart: I think that, when my right hon. Friend receives the resolution from Inverness, he will probably wish to consult the Minister of Transport on the matter.

    Health Service (Specialists)
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of whole-time and part-time specialists in the Scottish Health Service at the nearest available date; and how these figures compare with 31st December, 1952.
    Mr. W. Reidasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the proportion of part-time specialists to full-time specialists employed under the National Health Service in Scotland; and how the present figures compare with the previous years since the institution of the National Health Service in 1948.
    Commander Galbraith: Since the Answer comprises a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Ross: Has there been a tendency in Scotland towards the development of the Health Service on a part-time basis, rather than as a full-time specialist service?
    Commander Galbraith: There has not, from the figures of specialists.
    Mr. Ross: Will the Joint Undersecretary look into the position in Ayrshire, at any rate, because he will be aware that protests have been made by management boards which have been overridden by the Regional Hospital Board, and the Minister has stood aside and said that it is not his business at all? That is developing a part-time service.
    Following is the table:

    SPECIALISTS EMPLOYED BY REGIONAL HOSPITAL BOARDS IN SCOTLAND

    Date

    Consultants

    Whole-time

    Part-time

    Total

    31st December, 1949.

    283 (43·8%)

    363 (56·2%)

    646

    31st December, 1950.

    325 (45·9%)

    383 (54·1%)

    708

    31st December, 1951.

    348 (47·6%)

    383 (52·4%)

    731

    31st December, 1952.

    372 (49·6%)

    378 (50·4%)

    750

    31st March, 1953.

    368 (49·2%)

    380 (50·8%)

    748

    Date

    S.H.M.O.'s

    Whole-time

    Part-time

    Total

    31st December, 1949.

    163 (59·5%)

    111 (41·5%)

    274

    31st December, 1950.

    174 (59·8%)

    117 (40·2%)

    291

    31st December, 1951.

    205 (63·9%)

    116 (36·1%)

    321

    31st December, 1952.

    219 (66·4%)

    111 (33·6%)

    330

    31st March, 1953.

    224 (67·3%)

    109 (32·7%)

    333

    Date

    Total Consultants and S.H.M.O.'s

    Whole-time

    Part-time

    Total

    31st December, 1949.

    446 (48·5%)

    474 (51·5%)

    920

    31st December, 1950.

    499 (49·9%)

    500 (50·1%)

    999

    31st December, 1951.

    553 (52·6%)

    499 (47·4%)

    1,052

    31st December, 1952.

    591(54·7%)

    489 (45·3%)

    1,080

    31st March, 1953.

    592 (54·8%)

    489 (45·4%)

    1,081

    N. B.

    1. No figures are available for 31st December, 1948.

    2. The figures do not include posts temporarily vacant as a result of death, retiral or resignation.

    Rural Electrification, Southern Area
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what percentage of farms in the Southern Area of the South-East Scotland Electricity Board
    728
    are supplied with electricity; and how this compares with other areas.
    Mr. Snadden: According to figures provided by the South-East Scotland Electricity Board, approximately 25 per cent. of the farms in their Southern Area had an electricity supply at 31st March, 1953: the comparable figure for the rest of their area at that date was 44 per cent.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: May I ask my hon. Friend if he will do everything he can in his position to see that this particular area receives more favourable treatment in future in order to bring it up to the general level?
    Mr. Snadden: I can only give the facts asked for in the Question, but my hon. and gallant Friend will be aware that responsibility for electricity policy does not lie with my right hon. Friend. We do everything we can to see that our farms get a supply.

  EDUCATION, SCOTLAND

    School Building Programme
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the serious nature of the criticisms made in the report issued to the Education Committee by the Director of Education for Glasgow about the restrictions on the building of schools, and of the shortage of teachers; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: Yes, Sir. There has not yet been time to examine the report in detail, but I am unable to accept some of the statements it contains. Every endeavour has been made to help the Glasgow Education Authority to settle their general school building programme, to obtain suitable sites, to prepare economical plans and to get the starting dates they asked for. My right hon. Friend has allocated to them as large a share of controlled materials as possible. He is not satisfied with the rate of progress in Glasgow and, before he knew that this report was being prepared, he had arranged for his officials to meet officials of the education authority to discuss the problem. The meeting is taking place this week.
    I am aware of the shortage of teachers-in Scotland, but, according to the latest

    729
    return, the shortage in Glasgow was below the Scottish average. I hope that during the debate on the Education Estimates it may be possible to make a comprehensive statement about the steps which are being taken to improve the position.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the Joint Undersecretary aware that the amount of material being made available to Glasgow is not enabling the Corporation to meet the minimum essential needs of education in the new housing areas, particularly in the primary departments where 6,000 pupils, and in the secondary department all the pupils, have to be transported to other schools in the older part of the City because of the inadequacy of school accommodation in the new housing areas.
    Mr. Stewart: The hon. Member will know as well as I do that the school building problem in Glasgow is complicated as the result of difficulties within the Corporation itself. This is not the time to discuss that at length. This meeting is taking place and I hope it will have results which both the hon. Member and I can cheer.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the Joint Under-Secre-tary aware that the problems became complicated only as a result of the standstill order introduced by the present Government in December, 1951?
    Mr. Stewart: No. I am answering a Question on that later. The hon. Member is quite wrong.
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how far the provision of new school building in the developing mining areas is keeping pace with the increasing demands; and what priority in such building is given to these areas.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: A comprehensive programme of school building in developing mining areas is in hand and I have no reason to believe that the provision of new schools is not keeping pace with the demand. No school in a developing mining area has been held up because of the claims of other areas and no question of priority has therefore arisen.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the Minister indicate whether there are any shortages of materials holding up school building not
    730
    only in mining areas but elsewhere? Is he further aware that in Fife there is— I will not say a great deal—but a certain amount of discontent about the relationship between the school building programme and the number of children coming in? In view of the fact that Fife is one of the most important developing mining areas in the whole of Britain, will he take further steps to ensure that the school building programme is adequate to meet the needs there?
    Mr. Stewart: As the hon. Member knows, we had a conference with Fife on the building programme not very long ago, and I think that Fife was satisfied with the result. But Fife is an important area and we are keeping in close and constant contact with the authorities on this matter.

    School Meals, Charges
    Mr. Carmichaelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of persons who have been dismissed, or will be dismissed, from the school meal service in consequence of the decrease in the number of children receiving school meals.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: According to information which I have obtained from the education authorities of the four cities and of the six counties with the largest populations, 70 full-time and 389 part-time workers have been dismissed and a further 42 part-time workers will be dismissed at the end of the current session.
    Mr. Carmichael: Is the Minister aware that the majority of the 70 dismissed are superannuated and of an age which will make it very difficult for them to find employment? In addition, is he aware that as a result of this there is a complete breakdown in the meals service in Scotland? Will he speak to his right hon. Friend and try to get him to alter the charges and bring the figures back to the pre-March figures.
    Mr. Stewart: It is wrong for the hon. Member to talk about a "complete breakdown." That is not the case. I have every reason to believe that as the months go by, and parents realise the changes which have been made, the numbers will go back to the former total and, I sincerely hope, will actually increase.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the Minister say what steps are taken by local authorities to ensure that where people are dismissed those kept on are people who most need the wages? I refer to widows and other such people.
    Mr. Stewart: That is a matter for the local authorities. It would not be right for the Government to interfere in matters of that kind.
    Mr. McInnes: Is the Minister aware that the Scottish Office have indicated to the local authorities that the minimum economy they hope to achieve is 10 per cent., which will involve almost 1,000 part-time and full-time workers?
    Mr. Stewart: I do not know how the hon. Member arrives at that figure. The total dismissed so far of whom we have any notice, or are likely to be dismissed, are no more than a fraction.
    Mr. Carmichaelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now state what the financial saving will be during 1953–54 as a result of the decision to increase the charges for school meals.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: The financial saving in 1593–54 is expected to be about £250,000 in Scotland.
    Mr. Carmichael: When the Minister answered my earlier Question he indicated that there would be no breakdown in the service, but there is a saving of £250,000 on the figures which have been given which show a reduction of 10 per cent. going up to 15 per cent. in many places. If this is the way in which the Government are to solve their economic problems, it is a miserable way in which to tackle education in Scotland.
    Mr. Stewart: To put this matter in its right proportion I would point out that on the two earlier occasions when the school meal prices were raised by the previous Government there was a fall of 6 per cent. and 4 per cent. in the number of children taking meals. At this point, as a result of the last increase, the figure is 128 per cent. I hope that that will be lowered a great deal.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when the earlier changes took place there was full employment with plenty of money coming into the homes, and today the situation is
    732
    changed? Will the hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend to inquire into the loss that will occur from the point of view of deterioration in the health of the children if this service suffers in any serious degree?
    Mr. Stewart: I fully accept the view of the right hon. Gentleman. I want more children to take school meals. We have altered the whole system. We have introduced partial remission, which was quite new in nearly every county——
    Mr. McInnes: No.
    Mr. Stewart: It was. I could quote figures. I hope that with the provision of free meals it will not be impossible for any child who needs a meal to get it.
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the reduction in the numbers of school meals consumed since the introduction of the recent price increase, he will undertake to re-examine the matter after six months with a view to reducing the price at least to the pre-lst March figure.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has taken steps to ensure that the increase need not deprive any child of a dinner because of financial hardship, by requiring education authorities to have schemes of partial remissions as well as arrangements for free meals and I hope that the fall in the number of children taking meals will only be temporary as it was after the increases made in 1950 and 1951.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when representatives of the Fife County Council met the Secretary of State some time ago the right hon. Gentleman gave a specific assurance that in six months' time the whole matter would be reviewed with a view to putting the charge back to where it was? Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that if the figures do not get back in six months to where they were before 1st March, he will reconsider the increased charge?
    Mr. Stewart: No, Sir. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is wrong about that. No such assurance was given to the Fife County Council or anybody else. We are taking a new count this month the result of which I hope will be available

    733
    for the education Estimates debate. I have every hope and desire that the numbers shall quickly be restored to what they were.

    School Sites
    Mr. Manuelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of school sites that have been acquired and serviced since the end of October, 1951, and the comparable figures for the previous 18 months.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: Since October, 1951, 167 school sites have been acquired, of which 103 have been serviced. During the preceding period of 18 months, 121 sites were acquired, and of these 49 were serviced during the period and a further 40 have been serviced since then.
    Mr. Manuel: While thanking the Joint Under-Secretary for that statement, may I ask him to indicate the position regarding actual building operations on sites now serviced after requisition, in order to reassure us about future educational needs, for primary schools in particular?
    Mr. Stewart: There are so many sites, and I have given the figures. There are more than 100, and I could not give the exact figure without notice, but if the hon. Gentleman gives me notice I will do so.

  CORONATION STONE
  Mr. R. Harrisasked the Prime Minister if, now that the Coronation is done, Her Majesty's Government will consider advising that the Stone of Scone should rest on Scottish territory.
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the cost of retaining the Stone of Destiny in Westminster Abbey, he will consider advising that the Stone of Destiny be placed for safe custody in Scotland.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): The Coronation Stone has been in Westminster Abbey for over 650 years. It has a special significance for all countries in the Commonwealth, which was strongly reinforced by the Coronation which has just taken place. The decision to restore the Stone to its
  734
  customary position in the Abbey, the traditional place of Coronation, commanded wide acceptance on both sides of the border; and it is not the intention of Her Majesty's present advisers to recommend any change.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that it costs a great deal to keep this Stone in Westminster Abbey, and that there are special installations which, whenever a Scotsman approaches the Stone, ring a bell in Scotland Yard? On the grounds of economy alone, would it not be far better to take the Stone back to Scotland and put it in a museum, where nobody would want to steal it?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think it is worth while to grudge the small expense concerned to maintain this historic continuity.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Will not my right hon. Friend agree that a final decision on a matter which involves such bitter controversy might well be held over until after the present season of rejoicing, and, particularly, until after Her Gracious Majesty's visit to the capital city of Edinburgh, when we all hope for a maximum of concord and a minimum of discord?
  The Prime Minister: I am not in any way answerable for the Question having been asked.

KOREA (REPATRIATION COMMISSION)
Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether he will now make a statement on the appointment of the Korean Repatriation Commission to be set up under the terms of the agreement recently signed at Panmunjon.
The Prime Minister: In accordance with the agreement of 8th June for the exchange of prisoners of war, the Neutral Nations Repatriation Commission is to consist of representatives of India, Switzerland, Sweden, Poland and Czechoslovakia. This Commission will take charge of prisoners of war not directly repatriated. I understand that all five countries have formally indicated their willingness to serve on this Commission.
Mr. Henderson: Is it not a fact that, during the past 12 months, the main point at issue at Panmunjon was the question

735
of the disposal of war prisoners, and that, during that period, President Rhee did not on any occasion signify his objection to a settlement of that problem and the question of a truce to follow? Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the delay in following up this agreement with a truce, accompanied as it has been by a flare-up of the fighting in Korea, is due to the intransigent attitude of President Rhee and his Government?
The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The right hon. and learned Gentleman himself is just as well able to judge the answers to those questions as I am.

N.A.T.O. FORCES (GENERAL RIDGWAY'S STATEMENT)
Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister whether the official statement by General Ridgway that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forces are unable to withstand a full scale offensive is receiving the urgent consideration of the Government; and if he will make a statement.
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, but I doubt if the grave and complex issues raised could be dealt with satisfactorily to the House at Question time.
Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman, then, does admit that the position is disquieting?
The Prime Minister: What is the exact admission which the right hon. Gentleman is endeavouring to secure from me?
Mr. Shinwell: The statement that General Ridgway made about the inadequacy of defence organisation.
The Prime Minister: General Ridgway is not under our orders, and he is perfectly entitled to make whatever statements he thinks fit. We are bound to consider what he says.
Mr. Shinwell: Do I understand that, although General Ridgway is not under the orders of the United Kingdom Government, though we have some responsibility in the matter, the right hon. Gentleman's Government intends to consider what General Ridgway said?
The Prime Minister: We are considering the matter most carefully, but it would
736
not be capable of being dealt with at Question time.
Mr. Noel-Baker: Is it not the fact that General Ridgway is responsible to the Council of N.A.T.O., which ought to judge the matters dealt with in his last statement?
The Prime Minister: We must not judge the general position simply by these conditions on the Western front. There is also the atomic bomb, in which the United States possesses an enormous advantage. That would be taken into consideration, too.

OFFICIAL CORRESPONDENCE (RUBBER STAMPS)
Mr. Osborneasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the dangers of abuse, he will forbid the use of rubber stamp signatures by all Ministers of the Crown and senior civil servants.
The Prime Minister: There is no doubt a strong feeling against bureaucracy and rubber stamps, but in view of the growing number of people who take an interest in public affairs and of the still increasing complexity of administration it would not be possible to issue an all-embracing veto of the kind my hon. Friend suggests. I should add however that it is not the practice of Ministers or senior civil servants to use rubber stamp signatures, except on carbon copies of their letters, or purely routine communications where large numbers are involved.
Mr. Osborae: Will the Prime Minister use his influence with local government officials—[HON. MEMBERS: "That is another Question."] I protest at this interruption, Mr. Speaker, for Scottish hon. Members have had a lot of time this afternoon. Will the Prime Minister use his influence with senior local government officials to get them to observe this rule of good manners and ensure that rubber stamp signatures are not used, especially on correspondence to Members of Parliament?
Mr. Speaker: There is nothing in the Question about local government officials.

MID-OCEAN CLUB, BERMUDA
Mr. Mikardoasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Mid-Ocean Club in Bermuda, where he is to meet President Eisenhower, debars Jews from membership and refuses accommodation to them as transient guests; and whether, in order to indicate his disapproval of this form of discrimination, he will seek to have the venue of the conference changed.
The Prime Minister: I am assured that the Mid-Ocean Club does not debar Jews from membership.
Mr. Mikardo: Is the Prime Minister aware that the evidence which lies behind this Question has been most carefully examined and authenticated and includes an affidavit, and if I sent him copies of the evidence will he be good enough to look at it?
The Prime Minister: Certainly, Sir, but I did not give the answer to the Question without having before me the names of two gentlemen of Jewish extraction and Jewish faith who are members of the club.
Mr. Mikardo: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the New York representative of the club has stated clearly in reply to an inquiry that the club will not accept Jewish people and that I have an affidavit to this effect? Will he look into the matter further?
The Prime Minister: My information is to the contrary. I will gladly accept any additional contribution to the facts at issue.
Mr. S. Silverman: Unless the right hon. Gentleman is completely satisfied that my hon. Friend is wrong, will he at least take steps to avoid any embarrassing incidents by making sure that the noble Lord the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his Government does not form part of the delegation?
The Prime Minister: Really, I do not see the point of that supplementary question. We have happily got well above senseless and malignant anti-Semitism in this country. Why make such a point?

KOREA (CASUALTY LIST ERROR)
Mr. Shinwell(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a statement on the inaccurate message sent to next-of-kin of soldiers who were wounded in Korea.
The Secretary of State for War(Mr. Antony Head): Between 25th and 29th May the next-of-kin of 11 men in The King's Regiment were informed officially by telegram that these men had been wounded; this was correct. But on 12th June a release was given to the Press erroneously stating that these men had been killed.
I have personally made a detailed examination of how this mistake came about. It was due to a clerical error combined with a subsequent failure when the list was rechecked. Although I can trace no similar mistake in the official lists during or since the second World War, it has undoubtedly been shown that the existing system is not completely proof against human error. I have therefore instituted a new system whereby the names of killed and wounded are shown on cards with highly distinctive marking and a different system of cross checking will also be employed. I believe that this will go as far as it is possible to go in making the system proof against any error.
I should like to express to the next-of-kin concerned my deep regret for the unnecessary distress and suffering which must have been caused by this exceptional but inexcusable mistake.
Mr. Shinwell: While I am sure every hon. Member appreciates that the right hon. Gentleman would not deliberately commit such an error, nor indeed would any member of his staff, nevertheless he will agree that the incident was most distressing to the people concerned. Can we have a definite assurance that the whole matter will be checked and crosschecked? [HON. MEMBERS: "It has been."] Perhaps hon. Members opposite are not interested in this matter. I cannot understand the reason for the interruptions from hon. Members opposite, Mr. Speaker. This is a perfectly legitimate supplementary question. If it were not, Mr. Speaker would rule me out of order. While we entirely acquit the War Office of any negligence in the matter,

739
I am seeking to ensure that the matter will be checked and cross-checked so that no further mistakes will be made.
Mr. L. M. Lever: While expressing appreciation to the Minister for the speedy and manly way in which he has tackled the matter—[Interruption.] I do not understand why there should be jeers from my hon. Friends. In the circumstances, in order to alleviate the anxiety felt by the parents and the suffering that they have undergone, would the Minister arrange for the wounded men to be transported home so that their parents might see them as soon as possible?
Mr. Head: It would be difficult for me to give a reply to that until I knew the actual circumstances. At least one man is on the dangerously ill list. I believe that one is on his way home now. This covers a very wide field, and I cannot give a categorical answer.
Mr. Lever: Will the right hon. Gentleman keep it under consideration?
Mrs. Braddock: As the result of the very unfortunate incident, a family in Liverpool has been put to grave upset and the boy's mother had to go to hospital as a result of it. Will the Minister send a personal letter to each of the people apologising for the error? They are not asking for anything very extraordinary, but they have had a terrible shock and I am certain that a letter from the Department and the Minister would do some good in that sense.
Mr. Head: I will certainly do that.
Mr. A. J. Irvine: Constituents of mine have been affected. As the right hon. Gentleman will agree that it is an extremely serious matter, will he consider giving an account of the new system which has been devised in a little more detail?
Mr. Head: I will certainly send it to the hon. Member in detail.

SOLDIER'S DEATH, MOSTON HALL HOSPITAL
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
66.Wing Commander HULBERT: To ask the Secretary of State for War if inquiries are now completed in regard to the death of Private Donald Harrison, of Stockport,
740
who died in Moston Hall Military Hospital in April; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Mr. Harold Davies: On a point of order. Would you allow, Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State for War to answer Question No. 66? I understand that the War Office have completed their inquiries. The Minister promised the House that he would make a report as soon as inquiries were completed. Might we have his report now?
Mr. Speaker: No. The hon. Member will have to wait for the written reply.

TRAFFIC CONGESTION, LONDON
Mr. Callaghan(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the concern caused by the present traffic congestion in London, and will state what plans he has to prevent paralysis of road traffic in certain areas during the present circumstances?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir David Maxwell Fyfe): This is a problem of irreconcilables. I am sure that no Member of this House would wish to prevent his constituents from coming to London to see the Coronation sights. Yet there is a limit to the traffic that the streets of any city can reasonably carry; and in London that limit has been passed, as we all know. This is in spite of everything the police have been able to do to relieve the congestion, and I am convinced they have done all that is humanly possible.
During Coronation week the Commissioner of Police imposed restrictions on the use of certain streets within the Coronation area, and I think that the House will agree that the police deserve the heartiest congratulations for their successful handling of the traffic problem during that week. The Commissioner decided to relax the restrictions on 7th June in order to allow the public the fullest possible opportunity of seeing the Coronation decorations and illuminations, but the congestion experienced over the last few days, particularly in the neighbourhood of the Houses of Parliament, convinced him that it was necessary to reimpose the ban on coaches carrying private parties from using certain specified roads, if he

741
were to fulfil the obligations imposed on him by the Sessional Order.
As the House will be aware, the Commissioner of Police, after consultation with me, made an Order on Saturday last reimposing the ban on private coaches during Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of this week. The Commissioner proposes to consider later, in the light of the conditions then prevailing, whether the prohibition needs to be extended for any further period.
As regard streets outside the Coronation area, the Commissioner has issued directions that the power to divert traffic should, as long as the period of public rejoicing lasts, be exercised freely whenever and wherever the occasion demands. It is hoped that these measures will produce a marked improvement in the circulation of traffic, but the Commissioner of Police and I will, of course, keep the matter under close review.
Mr. Callaghan: No doubt the right hon. Gentleman is aware that we share completely his views about the good humour and tolerance of the police, and also of the bus crews, who have behaved with very great courtesy during the recent situation. I want to ask him two questions. While it is clear that stopping coaches corning into the central area will help the situation, nevertheless that is rather discriminating against them. Would it not be possible for the police to consider whether, during this period, and especially during the day-time when essential traffic is being stopped—one does not mind about the evening so much— they could tighten up a little, particularly in regard to parking and waiting in the streets by private motor cars? Secondly, does not this situation reveal that London traffic is completely saturated? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bring the matter to the notice of his Cabinet colleagues to consider whether there should not be some long-term plan for dealing with London traffic in the future so as to prevent this kind of situation from arising?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the remarks with which he began his question and I shall convey them to the Commissioner of Police. With regard to the first of his two points, I shall of course consult the
742
Commissioner about the question of parking, but the hon. Gentleman knows from his previous experience that this is one of the matters on which I shall have to consult my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. I shall certainly direct attention to that point. With regard to the second point, I shall certainly do what he suggests, bring it to the notice of my colleagues, and especially of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Without casting any reflection on the police in any form, and dealing with the immediate issue and not the long-term, since it is the immediate issue with which we are concerned, may I ask the Home Secretary to bear in mind that all that has taken place in London has stimulated great interest throughout the country, and that the ordinary people who are using motor coaches have as much right to see the centre of London as have relatively well-placed people? Will he be good enough to consider the advisability of meeting London Transport and the Chief of Police to consider some alternative, rather than prevent the ordinary people from seeing the centre of London?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: The hon. Gentleman who has asked me that question has underlined what I have tried to put to the House, the great difficulty of finding a true balance on this point. I shall certainly consider it, and I shall consider it sympathetically, but I want the House to appreciate that there are those two points of view. There are people who are anxious to see the sights, if I may put it in that way, and who deserve to be considered. There is, on the other hand, the ordinary traffic of London, to which I must give attention. It was because I had that point so much in mind that I delayed as long as possible—many people think too long—in applying any ban at all. I shall certainly keep that aspect in mind.
Mr. Snow: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that to call in aid the Sessional Order seems to some of us rather like using a steam hammer to crack a nutshell? Hon. Members on both sides of the House who represent divisions within coaching distance are a little unhappy about our convenience being used to the inconvenience of our constituents.
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: The House ought to bear in mind that the Sessional Order of the House, made on 4th November, 1952, contains the words:
"that no obstruction be permitted to hinder the passage of Members to and from this House."
Of course, the Commissioner is bound to bear that in mind and to do his best to carry it out.
Mr. Snow: The access to the House is surely access by foot? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Why not?
Mr. Callaghan: I would ask the Home Secretary to bear in mind that I am not raising the question of the convenience to Members of this House but the essential traffic of London. That is what we are concerned about. May I ask the Home Secretary if he will not rely upon the Sessional Order, which deals with another matter concerning our convenience, in order to promote the flow of essential traffic through London, but will take the necessary steps to ensure that it goes through?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I have been trying to indicate that the movement of traffic in London is one of the main difficulties that I have to face. On the other hand, I appreciate the reluctance of Members to appear to be putting their own convenience too high, but I must remind them that the duty is placed on the Commissioner to carry out that Order. I should not like offhand to say that it was limited as the hon. Gentleman suggested.
Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the present conditions will continue to be impossible, both for the public and for the police, until the Government make up their mind when the Coronation decorations are to come down? At the present moment, hundreds of thousands of people are trying to squeeze in, within too limited a period of time, and it might ease the situation if the time were extended.
Sir W. Darling: Is it not apparent upon a long-term view that London has become so large and unmanageable that steps will have to be taken to decentralise it into the country?
Mr. P. Roberts: Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider the use of
744
one-way streets to a greater extent than at the moment? In view of what happens in every great city, like Berlin, Paris and New York, may not my right hon. and learned Friend find that therein lies the solution?
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I will certainly bear that in mind. I should like the House to know that the question of diversion and of one-way streets was very carefully considered. The schemes are there, but what we are being faced with is that all the streets including those into which the diversions could be made, have been full. Therefore, it has been impossible to apply the schemes.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank): Unless we sit unduly late on the Finance Bill tonight, we desire to take the draft Coastal Flooding (Acreage Payments) Scheme, 1953, and the (Compensation for Emergency Work) Order, 1953, which, as the House is aware, are of some urgency. These Orders arise out of flood damage.
Mr. Edward Evans: Does the Leader of the House think it is fair to Members who are interested in this matter that these Regulations were made available to us only in the last few days? We have had no opportunity of discussing them.
Mr. Crookshank: I am sorry about that. The Regulations were published last week, and I did mention them on Thursday in the hope of taking them as soon as possible in order that steps could be taken to get on with the payments, which are urgent.
Mr. Evans: In the ordinary way we would have discussed them yesterday and got our colleagues together to look through them, but there was no opportunity of doing so. They are sprung upon us tonight.
Mr. Crookshank: I am very sorry about that. One is working under this need for urgency in this particular case. If hon. Gentlemen have not been able to meet in order to discuss the matter among themselves, I am very sorry. We shall be discussing the Finance Bill in the early part of the afternoon, so perhaps they can find an opportunity then.

BILL PRESENTED
  HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND ANCIENT MONUMENTS BILL
  "to provide for the preservation and acquisition of buildings of outstanding historic or architectural interest and their contents and related property, and to amend the law relating to ancient monuments and other objects of archaeological interest," presented by Sir David Eccles; supported by Mr. H. Macmillan, Mr. J. Stuart, Mr. Boyd-Carpenter and Mr. Molson; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 94.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  FINANCE BILL
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 11th June].
  (Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair] Clause 13.—(ADJUSTMENT OF GENERAL TAX LIABILITY BY REFERENCE TO BUSINESS LOSSES, ETC.)
  3.50 p.m.
  Mr. G. P. Stevens: I beg to move, in page 8, to leave out line 45.
  I believe that the principle of "one man, one income" should apply more widely than it does. It is true that for administrative purposes it is convenient to divide a taxpayer's income under five Clauses and separate Schedules but to keep those different parts of the same taxpayer's income in different categories can very often inflict quite a serious hardship. Clause 13 is a very small but, nevertheless, welcome step towards a principle which, I believe, should be more generally applied.
  I think that in Clause 13 I recognise a recommendation in the Report of the Committee on the Taxation of Trading Profits, otherwise known as the Millard Tucker Report of which, for the sake of greater accuracy, I have obtained a copy. Paragraph 82 of that Report contains, at its end, this specific recommendation:
  "… we recommend the introduction of a provision under which a business loss could be carried forward and set against non-business profits for one year and one year only."
  It seems to me that Clause 13 sets out to implement the recommendation of the Millard Tucker Committee, but line 45 of the Clause makes a proviso which is certainly not mentioned in paragraph 82 of the Committee's Report. It is a proviso that the business in respect of which the loss is incurred and the claim is made must still be carried on by the taxpayer in the year for which the claim is made. There is no such proviso recommended in paragraph 82 of the Millard Tucker Report. On the contrary, there is a very definite warning that:
  "The tax payer who had made a considerable loss and would otherwise have closed down his business would find it advantageous to keep it alive in order that he might be able to carry forward the loss and set it against his non-business income."

  747
  That is a warning against line 45 and it is for that reason that I suggest that the line should be omitted.
  I am grateful to the Chancellor for the Clause and the concession contained in it, but I regret that the Tucker lily has been spoiled by the Treasury gilt. I hope that the Chancellor will do away with the gilt.
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller): I regret that the Government cannot accept the Amendment. I think that my hon. Friend is misinterpreting paragraph 82 of the Millard Tucker Report, which Clause 13 seeks to implement. My hon. Friend read out part of paragraph 82, but if he relates it to the words which precede that part he will see that the Tucker Committee were rejecting any general provision enabling the carrying forward of a business loss and setting it against income arising from investment reserves. The passage my hon. Friend read to the Committee follows upon that, and in my view there is a clear implication from that passage, and from the paragraph as a whole, that the Committee were not intending to enable this advantage to be gained by someone who had ceased to carry on his business.
  It is for that reason, and, indeed, to carry out the Millard Tucker Committee recommendation in paragraph 82 in its entirety, that the words which my hon. Friend seeks to have omitted were inserted in the Bill. My hon. Friend will see in another part of the Committee's Report the proposal relating these words to terminal losses. That might be a more appropriate place to deal with the point he has in mind.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: I am sorry that the Solicitor-General is not able to accept this Amendment, because as I read the Millard Tucker Report, although it is true that the Report is silent on this particular point, I should have thought, as did the hon. Member for Langstone (Mr. Stevens), that the fair implication of what the Report suggests is that this Amendment should be accepted.
  If the Solicitor-General will study paragraphs 81 and 82 of the Millard Tucker Report again he will find that the Committee reject, first of all, the suggestion that a taxpayer in business should be
  748
  able to set off his losses over a period of years if he closes down his business. They reject the suggestion that if the trader closes down his business he should be able to set off his losses in his last year against earned income from other sources or unearned income in future years.
  The Millard Tucker Committee specifically recommend, however, that a business loss should be carried forward and set against non-business profits for one year and one year only. They do not suggest or say anything from which it can be adduced that it would be unreasonable that the advantage should be given to the trader who makes a loss and carries on his business or to a trader who ceases trade. They point out, further, that hardship frequently occurs when a trader closes down a business, and it may well be necessary to give this relief to a trader who closes down a business as well as to a trader who continues his business.
  I should have thought, therefore, that the whole of the argument which led the Millard Tucker Committee to make then-recommendation, on which Clause 13 is based are, to say the least, sufficient to justify the sense of the proposed Amendment. I hope, therefore, that the Solicitor-General will be able to give an assurance that he will look at the matter again with a view to reconsidering it on the Report stage.
  Mr. Stevens: It is an odd thing that though we have been speaking the English language for a very large number of years it is very difficult for people to agree on what simple words appear to mean. I have paid great attention to what the Solicitor-General has said about paragraph 82 of the Millard Tucker Report and I shall consider what he has said very carefully. If I come to the same opinion as the Solicitor-General I shall have nothing further to say; otherwise, I shall seek an opportunity to raise this point again on another occasion.
  The Solicitor-General: The passage which I think carries the implication that this relief was not intended to apply to a business that ceases to exist is the passage in paragraph 82 of the Millard Tucker Report which my hon. Friend read. It states:
  "The taxpayer who had made a considerable loss and would otherwise have closed down his business would find it advantageous

  749
  to keep it alive in order that he might be able to carry forward the loss and set it against his non-business income."
  That would appear to me to imply that the Millard Tucker Committee were not in favour of such a loss being carried forward where a business ceases to exist. I merely mention those words because it is upon those words that I was founding my argument that this Clause, in its original form, carries out the recommendation. I thought it was right to mention that to my hon. Friend.
  4.0 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: May I ask the Solicitor-General when, as I hope he will, he reconsiders this matter, to bear in mind that there may be rather undesirable social consequences unless the position is clarified? If a man has suffered a very considerable loss in the year, which is regarded as a possibility in the Millard Tucker Report, he will be tempted to prolong business in circumstances when it is not desirable that he should do so and in circumstances which may cause a good deal of trouble and even hardship to other people—for instance, to people who are working for him.
  I should have thought that there were, generally speaking, in the tax legislation provisions for dealing with losses in the last year of any business which might be applied in this case. I appreciate the difficulty involved in considering this matter, but I hope the Solicitor-General will consider it seriously and sympathetically. Personally, I think the Millard Tucker Report is far from clear on this matter, and I rather doubt whether this point has been considered or reported on by the Committee. One knows how clearly they express themselves, and one feels that they would not have left this matter to an implication to be derived from the language used in respect of another matter.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: I am tempted to intervene again in view of what the Solicitor-General has said. I suggest that the sentence which he read from the Millard Tucker Report does not carry the interpretation put upon it. I think the reverse is the case. I think that the Report is saying in that sentence in paragraph 82 that in the circumstances with which they are there dealing, if another suggestion had been adopted there would be a temptation on a taxpayer to carry
  750
  on a business merely for the purpose of getting this relief. I should have thought that unless this Amendment were accepted there would be the temptation, to which the Millard Tucker Committee referred, on a tradesman to carry on his business for another year merely to get the tax relief which this provision in its present form gives.
  If the Amendment were accepted the trader would do the normal thing and close down his business, which is what he ought to do, and would get his tax relief although his business had ceased for a year. That is the sensible thing to do. Unless this Amendment is accepted and if a trader is required to be carrying on his business at the time when he makes this application for relief, he will be tempted to carry it on for a further year merely to get the benefit of the provision.
  That would be undesirable in the interests of the business, and it is for that reason, which the Millard Tucker Committee pointed out, that the trader ought not to be exposed to the temptation of carrying on his business unnecessarily for another year. As I understand it, that is the whole object of this Amendment and I hope the Solicitor-General will reconsider the point.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: As I understand, the Solicitor-General rests his case on the recommendation, as he sees it, of the Millard Tucker Report. There seems to be a certain amount of ambiguity in this paragraph, and I think hon. Members in all quarters of the Committee are agreed about that. It occurs to me that perhaps, in the circumstances, the Government might consider asking the Royal Commission to look at this matter again and give their advice upon it. I appreciate that they will be, in the main, concerned with much broader and weightier issues. Nevertheless, I think it is as well that they should also act, as it were, as a longstop on these detailed points of tax law, and possibly the Solicitor-General would like to consider that suggestion. I appreciate that we shall have to wait another year before the Report comes out, but I think they ought to look at it.
  Amendment negatived.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  Mr. E. Fletcher: Would the Solicitor-General explain to us why the other recommendation contained in this part of the Millard Tucker Committee Report has not been dealt with? I am thinking of paragraph 83. At the end of that paragraph the Committee say in connection with this matter:
  "There is a long-standing administrative concession under which the Board of Inland Revenue in certain circumstances and on certain conditions, permit a capital allowance to create or augment a loss for purposes of Section 34. We think that the existing practice is reasonable and recommend that statutory sanction should be given to it."
  I think we all agree that if there is a matter of this kind which gives concern——
  The Chairman: Order. I think we are also all agreed that on this Motion we cannot discuss anything which is not in the Clause.
  Mr. Fletcher: With respect, Sir Charles, this arises on Clause 13, which relates to "Adjustment of general tax liability by reference to business losses, etc.," and arises, as the Solicitor-General was in order in pointing out, from recommendations in paragraphs 82 and 83 of the Millard Tucker Report. I was hoping that before we accept the Clause as it stands, which is what we are being asked to do, the Solicitor-General would enlighten us on why this Clause does not go further than it does and tidy up this other point which is dealt with in this paragraph.
  The Chairman: As the hon. Member knows, it would be out of order to deal with anything other than what is in the Clause.
  Mr. Fletcher: With great respect, Sir Charles, surely if we are asked to say whether a Clause should or should not stand part of the Bill, we are entitled to consider whether it goes far enough. We are being asked to reach a decision on whether we should accept this Clause. Surely on that Question I am entitled to argue reasons why it may not be the desire of the Committee to consent because it does not go far enough.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Before you answer the point put by my hon. Friend, Sir Charles, may I put this to you? Suppose my hon. Friend had
  752
  thought fit to put down an Amendment to include further references to the points that he has been mentioning, would that Amendment have been out of order? It would, I agree, on Third Reading, but surely not in Committee.
  The Chairman: I would not like to answer offhand about Amendments which I have not seen, but it is clear that on the Motion "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," remarks must be confined to that Motion. We cannot discuss anything else.
  Mr. Fletcher: I submit, Sir Charles, that this discussion has a general bearing on that Motion. Surely the Committee are entitled to consider whether the Clause is complete before we accept it. I suggest that the Clause is incomplete. With great respect, I should have thought that I was entitled to address arguments in support of my contention that the Clause is incomplete and should not be accepted. It is quite a small point.
  The Chairman: It may be a small point, but we still can discuss only what is in the Clause. I am sorry; it is not my Ruling, but that is the position.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  FINANCE BILL

    Clause 14.—(RESTORATION AND AMOUNT OF INITIAL ALLOWANCES.)
    The Chairman: It might now be convenient if I said a word about the selection of Amendments upon which I have decided after consultation. The first Amendment to be called is that in page 9, line 23 in the name of the hon. Member for Langstone (Mr. Stevens). The second Amendment is that in line 28 in the name of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell). The third Amendment is the next one in the name of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, in line 28, and with it goes the one in line 37 in the name of the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. D. Marshall). Also with it goes the Amendment in line 37 in the name of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll). The next one is that of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, also in line 37—which reads "Subsection (2) of this section …" and so on. All those Amendments should be discussed together when the Amendment in page 9, line 28 is called.
    Mr. F. J. Erroll: To which one of the three Amendments carrying that reference are you referring, Sir Charles.
    The Chairman: The Amendments to which I am referring are the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South—in page 9, line 28; the Amendment of the hon. Member for Bodmin— in line 37; the Amendment of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale—in line 37—and the Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South—also in line 37.
    Mr. Erroll: You are not referring to the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell)—in page 9, line 28, after "shall," to insert:
    " save as in the following subsection appears"?
    The Chairman: No. I shall refer to that now. The next Amendment to be called is the paving Amendment of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South to which the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale has just referred. That deals with fuel economy. I had arranged to call immediately after that the paving Amendment in the name of the hon Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) —also in page 9, line 28—which is exactly the same as the previous one. We had better discuss the brick-making Amendment on its own.
    Mr. Gaitskell: There are some other Amendments to which you have not referred, Sir Charles. I am not clear whether you are calling those. For instance, there is the Amendment which we call the "small business" Amendment, and the two paving Amendments preceding it, one relating to a later Amendment in regard to mechanical handling and another to a later Amendment regarding self-service equipment.
    The Chairman: I had not selected the Amendment in page 9, line 32. As the Amendment dealing with mechanical handling has not been selected, the paving Amendment is not required.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I do not want to detain the Committee, but it is important to be clear what is to be discussed and what is not. If I went over this again, perhaps you would be good enough to tell me if I go wrong. I understand that you are calling the first and second Amendments
    754
    standing in my name—the one to increase the initial allowances to 40 per cent. and the following one. They relate to my Amendment in page 9, line 37 to which you have referred. Those Amendments embody the proposals for differential initial allowances which were put forward by the Millard Tucker Committee. I was not clear whether you were going to call the Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd)—in page 9, line 43.
    The Chairman: I had that marked and I missed it. That should also go with the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment.
    Mr. Gaitskell: As I understand it, you are calling the Amendment on fuel economy and the one on bricks—but you have not referred to one other Amendment which also stands in my name and which refers to overseas development.
    4.15 p.m.
    The Chairman: I did not think I needed to refer to that, as it stands on its own.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I understand you will be calling that one.
    The Chairman: Yes.
    Mr. Gaitskell: You will not be calling the Amendment dealing with self-service; the one dealing with mechanical handling; the one dealing with small businesses; the one standing in the name of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale—in page 9, line 37—and one or two others. I take it that it would be perfectly in order to refer to those various matters either in a debate on the increased initial allowance to 40 per cent. or on the main proposals of the Millard Tucker Committee.
    The Chairman: Yes, whichever is the more convenient. My idea was to take the Amendments in the names of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale and the hon. Member for Bodmin with the second of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendments.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In effect, the other Amendments which you are not calling are being taken with that Amendment, in addition to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale.
    The Chairman: Yes. I was calling only the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment to a Division.
    Mr. Gerald Nabarro: On behalf of several of my hon. Friends, I should like your guidance, Sir Charles, in connection with the two important shipping Amendments. You have referred to the first—that in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. D. Marshall)—in page 9, line 37, and I am wondering whether there has been a misapprehension in this regard. The purpose of that Amendment is to substitute a 40 per cent. rate of initial allowance for a 20 per cent. rate, as at present contained in the Bill. It might be for the convenience of the Committee if that were considered with the first Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gait-skell)—in page 9, line 26—the purpose of which is to raise the allowance on all plant and machinery from 20 per cent. to 40 per cent., as it seems so clear that the two march together. When you gave your explanation, you said that that shipping Amendment would be taken with the right hon. Gentleman's second Amendment—in page 9, line 28—which is the third Amendment to Clause 14.
    The Chairman: I have no strong feelings about this, but I thought that my suggestion was the most appropriate one.
    Mr. Austen Albu: That seems to be the most appropriate place for it. The second Amendment gives the Treasury power to make discrimination between industries so as to raise the rate for certain industries from 20 per cent. to 40 per cent., and that should include the shipping industry, with other industries in respect of which we have put down Amendments which are not being called. They are all special cases and I think it is more appropriate that they should be discussed with the second Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell).
    Mr. Nabarro: I want to get this clear. I am also very much concerned with the Amendment about fuel efficiency. It will be extremely difficult to debate the general question whether or not there should be discrimination in the incidence of the initial allowances unless, as part
    756
    of the debate, we may also discuss the particular classes of plant and equipment which ought to be made the subject of such discrimination—ships and fuel efficiency—which you have said may be embodied in our debates today. I submit, therefore, that the question of ships ought to be taken as part of the discussion on the right hon. Gentleman's first Amendment, not his second Amendment.
    The Chairman: I think that I will stick to my original idea that this matter should be taken with the right hon. Gentleman's second Amendment. The arguments are the same wherever they are taken, and I do not think it will make any difference.
    Mr. Nabarro: There is an Amendment in Clause 14, page 10, line 34, again connected with shipping, to which you did not allude. To avoid any repetition of the arguments which may arise in connection with shipping, can you say whether that Amendment is to be called separately?
    The Chairman: Yes. I did not mention that because it stands by itself, and I intend to call it.
    Mr. Mitchison: On a point of procedure. There are two Schedules referred to in two Amendments which you intend to select, and it is almost impossible to argue the Amendments properly without reference to the Schedules. I take it that reference to the Schedules in the case of those two Amendments would be in order. In fact, there are three Amendments—two in Clause 14, page 9, line 37, which seek to insert a subsection (3), and one in page 9, line 39.
    The Chairman: The two new Schedules are covered by this discussion because otherwise there would be no chance of discussing them if the Amendment fell.
    Mr. Mitchison: There is a third— about fuel economy.
    The Chairman: I beg the hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon.
    Mr. Stevens: I beg to move, in page 9, line 23, after "incurred," to insert "on or."

    757
    This is a drafting Amendment. The Clause refers to Part X of the Income Tax Act, 1952, in connection with the giving of initial allowances. I think there must be reference to Section 265 of that Act, in subsection (4) of which we find,
    " expenditure incurred by a person on or after the sixth day of April."
    I am sure this must be an error.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. R. Maudling): It is our intention that the subsection should cover the day itself and it is our opinion that the Clause already has that effect without inserting this Amendment. It appears, however, that there is some doubt, and for the sake of greater clarity my right hon. Friend is prepared to accept the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Anthony Crosland: I beg to move, in page 9. line 26, to leave out subsection (2).
    The fact that I rise to move the Amendment, and not one of the five right hon. Gentlemen whose names appear upon it, is not to be taken as confirmation of what a superficial observer might think, that they are all physically incapacitated after last night.
    I think this is the most important Amendment to this Clause. It seeks to raise to 40 per cent. the rate of initial allowances on plant and equipment, which the Bill proposes to restore to 20 per cent. It refers only to plant and equipment—only to what is covered by Chapter II of Part X of the Act—and it does not apply to industrial buildings or new mining works.
    The history of these allowances on plant and equipment, as hon. Members will recall, is that they were established at 20 per cent. by Sir John Anderson, now Lord Waverley, in 1945, raised to 40 per cent. by the late Sir Stafford Cripps in 1949, suspended in 1951 and restored at the present rate of 20 per cent., or so it is proposed, in this year's Finance Bill.
    The background to the Amendment and the reason we move it, and why we on this side of the Committee attach very great importance to it, is the situation of our capital investment programme. There is no dispute on any side of the Committee that the overriding economic
    758
    need which faces this country at the moment is to get an increase in the rate of capital investment. Until very recently—a year or a few months ago— it would not have been possible to raise capital investment in Britain by any purely fiscal or financial concession. This point has been argued a good deal between the two sides of the Committee, but it seems to me fairly plain that for the whole of the post-war period it could not be argued that the rate of investment was determined by the financial position in industry.
    One can naturally find individual firms whose level of investment was determined solely by their command of financial resources, but, speaking of industry as a whole, it seems clear that what determined the level of investment from 1945 until about a year ago was not primarily a financial limitation but a physical limitation. It was the size of the industry producing plant and equipment which was the effective limit on the rate at which our industries could re-equip.
    Until recently, therefore, we on this side of the Committee were unsympathetic towards the barrage of propaganda coming from hon. Members opposite and from the business world generally in favour of a reduction in the taxation on business profits or in favour of additional financial relief to industry, because we held the view that the rate of investment was determined by the physical limitation of the size of the industry producing plant and equipment.
    Our view on this was supported by figures quoted in successive National Income White Papers and also in this year's Economic Survey, which shows again that, taking industry as a whole—naturally those figures cannot possibly cover every individual case—the aggregate net profits were sufficient more than to cover the outpayments on dividends and interest, tax payments, and also for investment in fixed and working capital. With the exception of 1951, therefore, in every post-war year industry was a net lender. That seemed to suggest very strongly that no additional financial aid to industry would have made a great deal of difference to the rate of capital expenditure.
    In the last year, for the first time since the end of the war, there have been some signs that this situation has been altering, because for the first time since 1945

    759
    there have been some signs of slack in the industries producing capital goods —some signs that the output of the industries producing capital equipment could, as far as physical resources are concerned, be higher than it is.
    It is therefore our view that this is the first moment since the end of the war when the effective limit on the level of investment in this country may not be in the physical resources available for the industries producing capital equipment but may be in the financial position of industry. That is why we move the Amendment to increase the initial allowances to 40 per cent., and we move it as one possible means of giving a greater financial relief to industry 'than is proposed in the Bill.
    It was presumably this sort of consideration—that there was now no physical barrier to a certain increase in investment—which also prompted the Chancellor to make the concessions in his Budget to industry, with the announcement of the withdrawal of the Excess Profits Levy, sixpence off the Standard rate of Income Tax—which is largely defended by the Chancellor because of the relief it will give to industry —and the general emphasis of his Budget.
    4.30 p.m.
    We take the view that those concessions that have been made to encourage a higher rate of capital investment may very well not be sufficient as they now stand. In particular, we find it very hard to understand why the Chancellor, when restoring initial allowances, should have restored them at the rate of 20 per cent. and not at the rate of 40 per cent. to which they were raised by the late Sir Stafford Cripps in 1949, because if in 1949 there was a case for a 40 per cent. initial allowance on plant and equipment, surely that case must be very much stronger today, for the simple reason that in 1949 the industries producing plant and equipment were under very much greater strain than they are at the moment.
    No hon. or right hon. Member on the other side of the Committee criticised the decision to raise the rate to 40 per cent. in 1949. Indeed, Lord Waverley welcomed the doubling of the allowance from 20 per cent. to 40 per cent. in 1949
    760
    and said it was fully justified, and he added that a logical case could have been made for going very much farther. If a logical case could have been made for going farther than 40 per cent. in 1949 when the engineering industries were under very great strain, surely the case must be much stronger today when those industries are under much less strain.
    So far as hon. and right hon. Members opposite are concerned, it has to be remembered that they actually opposed the suspension of the 40 per cent. initial allowance in 1951 when it was quite clear that the position in the engineering industries was such that a higher rate of capital investment was quite impossible while we had to endure the peak period of the rearmament programme. Despite that position in industry, the Conservative Party, then in Opposition, voted against the decision to suspend the 40 per cent. allowance in 1951, and the Chancellor, whose acumen in these matters seems to have been rather greater than it is now, made a very powerful speech extremely early in the morning criticising the decision on suspension. If it was the view of the Chancellor that the 40 per cent. allowance was justified in 1951 in the peak period of re-armament, it must surely be more so now.
    I know that some hon. Members on the other side of the Committee and certain people in the business and financial world do not like initial allowances and do not regard them as the most effective means possible of giving financial assistance to industry. [Interruption.] Two hon. Members, at least, evidently share that view today. I should like to discuss in a little detail the question of what kind of help initial allowances give. They are very often dismissed in almost a semi-contemptuous fashion as only an interest-free loan. The Millard Tucker Report uses the phrase "interest-free loan," and the allowances are constantly referred to in these terms. I suggest to the Committee that the analogy is an extremely misleading one. One cannot give a clear picture of initial allowances if one goes on talking about them merely in terms of an interest-free loan. The analogy, I suggest to the Committee, is not correct for three reasons.
    First of all, an initial allowance is a loan which, in certain circumstances,

    761
    there is no obligation to repay. After all, if a business is not making any taxable profits during the years in which otherwise it would be repaying the loan, naturally in the form of a higher level of annual tax payments than otherwise, it Is under no obligation to repay the loan at all. In fact, the loan is just a purely oneway transaction.
    The second reason I think that the analogy is not an exact one is that it is a loan granted in circumstances in which the company concerned may find it extremely difficult to get a loan from any other source. This follows naturally from the fact that the loan is granted solely on the consideration that the equipment is actually ordered, and that it is granted without any particular relation to or concern about the financial standing of the company, so that it is quite possible that a company would find it impossible to borrow from another source or find it possible to borrow only at prohibitive cost. But it has the right to this loan provided it undertakes expenditure on new equipment.
    The third reason, and much the most important reason, why the initial allowance is not merely a loan lies in the fact that, in two sets of circumstances that I shall mention in a moment, taking industry as a whole the loan is not in fact repaid. What I mean is that, assuming that initial allowances are not at some future date withdrawn or reduced to a lower figure, and assuming also, as I think is true of most of industry, that capital expenditure which attracts initial allowances is not a once-for-all expenditure on the part of the company but is a more or less continuous stream of expenditure, then the loan is never fully repaid, taking industry as a whole, but is automatically continuously renewed.
    I do not know whether the Financial Secretary can give us a calculation, but if initial allowances are now kept at 40 per cent. for the next 10 years there will be a net loss of revenue to the Treasury. The figures which the Chancellor gives are always of the loss to the Treasury just in the first two or three years. Naturally they do not represent the rate of loss over a 10-year period, because there is a certain process of repayment during the latter years; but it
    762
    must be the case, if the mains at 40 per cent. for there is a net loss to the Trea not know whether any calculations be made of the kind of net loss to the Treasury over a 10-year period, but it would be very interesting if they could.
    So, assuming that the initial allowances are not withdrawn, they represent a genuine and permanent remission of business taxation. To the extent of the net cost to the Treasury, say over 10 or 20 years, there is a permanent accretion to industry's financial resources, and for that reason I suggest that it is quite misleading to talk about them merely as a loan from the Treasury to industry, the whole of which will be repaid. That will not occur.
    The first objection, then, that the allowance is only a loan and therefore does not represent any very permanent relief to industry, is not correct. The second objection so far as the business world is concerned is that instead of granting initial allowances we should reduce the general level of taxation on the undistributed profits of companies: or, if not, at any rate to move over to a replacement cost basis for depreciation allowances. I think that, as against those other two methods of relieving the financial burden upon industry, either direct reduction of Profits Tax or revalorisation, the method of initial allowances has extremely important advantages.
    So far as the reduction of Profits Tax is concerned, it is certainly inevitable that, though some part of the financial aid to industry which is granted by the tax reduction will no doubt be spent on capital investment, yet not all of it will be—some may be spent on dividends; thus less than 100 per cent. of that remission of taxation would be spent on capital equipment; so that if the object of the whole exercise is to increase investment, this method of aiding industry wastes, as it were, a certain proportion of the sum which is granted in tax concessions.
    As to moving over to replacement instead of a historical cost basis for depreciation allowances, that is an old dispute in the Committee between hon. Members on different sides. My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) has

    763
    this a great deal. Person >convinced, as I was the first read it, by the very detailed argument in the Millard Tucker Committee's Report. Hon. Members will recall that the main argument there was that, as a method of aiding industry, it was one which would give much more help to existing stationary firms than to a new business or a business in process of expansion; secondly, that it would give less assistance—again, quite naturally, it follows automatically from the form of the concession—to the businesses which had very largely re-equipped since the war relative to businesses which had not, I do not say necessarily through any fault of theirs, largely re-equipped since the war, and that this distribution of aid between these two types of businesses, giving the most relief to those which had been slowest to re-equip, is hardly conducive to efficiency.
    For these reasons, we on this side of the Committee take the view that initial allowances are a much more satisfactory method of relieving the financial burden than either a straight cut in the taxation of profits or revalorisation. Initial allowances are granted only if the capital expenditure is actually incurred, so that no part of the remission is, as it were, wasted; the whole is directly related to the actual or physical capital expenditure. Above all, it gives the maximum advantage to the companies which spend the most on plant and equipment and the minimum to those which spend the least. The distribution and the concession goes exactly where one would like it to go. So we do not share this objection to initial allowances, that they are an unsatisfactory alternative to a direct cut in taxation or a change-over to replacement costs.
    The third, and I think the least important, objection which can be made to initial allowances, or to a doubling of initial allowances, which is what we propose, is that it would cost the Treasury a great deal of money. I have already argued what I think is very frequently ignored, that it is quite true that it would cost the Treasury money on balance, assuming that the initial allowances continue at any given rate. As I have suggested, it is not true, although commonly supposed, that the whole of the money
    764
    comes back to the Treasury in later years when the loan comes to be repaid.
    Nevertheless, the net cost to the Treasury, or the long-term cost to the Treasury, is nothing like so great as the cost must be in the early years. In this respect it would also be very interesting to know if any kind of estimates have been made; no doubt we shall be told. If we did take the longer period, the cost to the Treasury would not be enormous; it would very largely be a transfer of revenue between certain years and certain other years. When assessing what the cost might be in the first few years, it is important to remember that to a certain extent the cost is a transfer as between different years.
    The real argument so far as the cost to the Treasury is concerned is, I suggest, that it is really, as it were, only an accounting cost to the Treasury; it is not a cost which is important from an economic point of view. If these allowances are doubled and that costs £100 million, or whatever it may be, it is quite true that the Budget surplus, if there is one, will be reduced to that extent, but business saving will be increased to an exactly equivalent extent; it will be a transfer of savings as between the Budget and industry as a whole. It is not a cost in the sense that it would lead to a great increase of inflationary pressure in the same way as a reduction of Income Tax or a reduction of indirect taxation would.
    I suggest that even if it is, the situation so far as the investment programme is concerned is rapidly getting so serious that, whether this would be a costly concession or not, it is one which should be made. Hon. Members will have read— they were published only a week ago— the latest figures in the Ministry of Labour Gazette about the movement of labour; they are really extremely alarming; it is not possible to exaggerate how alarming they are to anyone who cares about the economic health of the country. They show in almost every case a large movement of labour into consumer goods industries and out of the industries described rather broadly as the metal and engineering group. In almost every case industries in that group are still losing labour and the consumer goods industries are gaining more.

    765
    4.45 p.m.
    The Chancellor has decided in his Budget, and it was not much disputed in the Committee that he was justified in doing so, to increase the public spending power by a number of tax concessions. I do not think he made those concessions solely with the object of making people happier and richer. It must have been in his mind also that if he encouraged spending power he would create a general atmosphere of greater confidence and greater security about the future and that this might indirectly lead to an increase in capital investment.
    This may be true; it is extremely hard to judge whether this infusion of spending power will or will not lead to increased investment. It really is of the first importance that it should. Britain is not in a situation in which we can afford to see labour moving out of the engineering industries today—I say this with great respect to hon. Members who represent Lancashire—back into textiles in very large numbers. That is not the sort of movement of labour which we can possibly afford in this country.
    The question mark which hangs over the Budget is whether the various concessions which the Chancellor has made will or will not be effective in raising capital investment, and if they are not the Budget will be judged in a year's time to be a fearful failure from an economic point of view. I do not want it to be a failure like that, but the Budget must be judged by whether it will suffice to bring about increased capital investment. We feel that although certain things in the Budget can increase capital investment, it is our main job to make doubly sure that we get the increase in investment which is required. Since we take the view that increased initial allowances are, compared with the other methods to which I have referred, a particularly efficient method of giving relief to industry, and because we hold that view very strongly, we are moving this Amendment this afternoon.
    Mr. Spencer Summers: I had not intended to intervene at this particular part of the debate, and I do so only for a few minutes, but some of the remarks which the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) has just made seem to me so highly dangerous that I feel it desirable to make a few
    766
    comments about them. There is, I understand, welcome agreement from the other side of the Committee that there is a grave risk of insufficient capital investment, but as a result of that view the effectiveness of the system of initial allowances has, to my way of thinking, been built up into something of far too great an importance than its intrinsic merits warrant.
    I should be very disturbed if the idea got about that here was some substitute for the accumulation of capital which is so vital to industry at the present time, that merely by manipulating the system of depreciation by means of initial allowances we can, over a period, in that sphere, make good the deficiency of genuine capital which we know to exist at present. An attempt was made, in seeking to build up the great value and importance of this system of initial allowances, to dispose of the argument that it is an interest-free loan. Before I come to examine that I should like to make the comment that inasmuch as my name is associated with another Amendment with which we shall shortly be dealing I realise that there are special cases in which some of the general arguments to which I am alluding may have particular relevance.
    It is argued that one of the reasons why it is not correct to regard this system as an interest-free loan is that there will be some instances in which the loan will not be repaid. The only circumstances I know of in which that can happen-—it may be postponed from the year in which its repayment is anticipated, but it will go on being postponed—is if the business comes to an end. It is odd to describe this system as attractive in that the loan will not have to be repaid when the only circumstances in which that applies is when the business comes to an end.
    Mr. Crosland: With reference to my argument, would not the hon. Gentleman agree that I suggested there is another circumstance in which the loan does not come to be repaid, and that is where the company was spending more or less continuously from year to year on capital equipment and consequently drawing the initial allowance year after year, and, therefore, the loan is postponed, possibly indefinitely?
    Mr. Summers: It is not realistic to obscure the issue by referring to loans running on continuously year after year when it is known precisely that the rate of repayment in the future will be related to the spending of certain moneys for certain purposes in one particular year. Twenty per cent. or 40 per cent., or whatever the figure may be, comes off the sum ultimately to be paid in respect of that particular piece of capital investment.
    Another way in which the hon. Member obscured the issue was his reference to the effect on the Treasury. He was arguing the case that over 10 years the Treasury might make a loss and that presumably it automatically followed that industry got relief as a consequence. Individual firms are not interested in the broad picture of what the Treasury gets. To them the loan has to be repaid irrespective of what happens to other people. I suggest that it is misleading to look at this matter purely from the Treasury end. Industry is looking at this from the point of view of the firms themselves.
    I do not know what attitude the Chancellor will take to this Amendment, but I cannot think that he will be induced to ignore the total cost of so doing in the early years merely because there is some prospect of recouping himself in the years that lie ahead. We all know that Chancellors cannot take a long period such as 10 years, taking the rough with the smooth over the whole of that period, in the hope that things will average themselves out and will be satisfactory in the long run. I think that they would be bound to have regard in the early years to so drastic a change as is recommended.
    It is because I believe that there are certain parts of British industry, to which reference will be made later, which have a particularly strong case, that I do not want to see the claims of these sections of industry prejudiced by the very much larger concession which this Amendment calls for. I hope that there will not be a risk of the value of this initial allowance technique being exaggerated. It has benefits, no doubt, in particular cases, but I hope it will not be exaggerated or regarded as a magic formula in substitution for the accumulation of capital for use in the future.
    The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South alluded to what he described as the changed circumstances justifying a fresh
    768
    look at this situation because the physical aspects of investment were no longer so important as the financial ones. What seemed to me so fallacious was that he seemed to think we could constantly recognise a change, which must have been obviously forseeable for years, and say, "Now this thing has happened we shall change our policy." One cannot accumulate enough money in one year to provide investment money in that particular year. Money has to be saved over a number of years to get sufficient funds and reserves together to discharge an investment in a very much shorter time.
    We have been saying for some time that there was a grave risk of insufficient capital being available and it would be dangerous to leave it to the last minute to do something about it. We welcome the change of viewpoint expressed, but I hope that no one will imagine that this thing can be dealt with merely on an annual basis. It is necessary to plan ahead and that is particularly necessary in this case. I hope that the true value of the initial allowance technique will not be exaggerated, and that it will be seen in its right proportion.
    Mr. Alba: I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) is in favour of giving relief to industry or not. I am not sure whether he wants industry to be relieved of its-taxation burden, but I am interested to know that we are to have his support for our second Amendment. I look forward to his speaking again, and, I hope, voting with us on that occasion if we divide the Committee.
    I find his argument rather peculiar. He agrees with my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment in recognising that the situation over the last few years has changed. He went into that in some detail. The reason why my hon. Friend feels that it is possible to make this concession at present is for the very reason that there are signs in the engineering industry that it is not being fully employed and that it is likely to be less fully employed in the future, and that, therefore, there are available physical resources. which, for a number of years previously, were not available. It is no good having money saved up if the physical resources are not available.

    769
    I cannot understand why the hon. Member does not think that the remission of a certain amount of tax out of profits is not, in fact, a provision of capital. As a matter of fact, the Millard Tucker Report, which, it is true, was published a couple of years ago, dealt with the argument about the increased costs of replacing machinery at that time. Assuming that the increased cost was something like 100 per cent. or double the original cost, it pointed out that the 40 per cent. initial allowance made up the total of the difference and, therefore, completely covered the rise in machinery and plant prices.
    I know, of course, that prices have gone up considerably since then, but nevertheless this is a means of making a considerable contribution towards a particular problem about which industry is always complaining. None of us on this side of the Committee believes as the hon. Gentleman seems to think, that this is by itself a sufficient means of getting the capital invested which we require. It is well known that we on this side of the Committee feel that much more direct Government action will be needed in the future if we are to get the expansion of the particular industries to which the hon. Gentleman was referring.
    I referred to this point during the Budget debate. I do not believe that this is not in many ways a useful concession, but I do not believe that it goes nearly far enough towards getting the expansion of the industries on which we are to rely in the future. Nevertheless, it is a provision of capital, and, as my hon. Friend pointed out, a continual provision of capital for continuing companies. It is not as if the companies come to an end. If they go on replacing machinery out of profits and putting in new plant and machinery, they get this initial allowance for so long as it lasts.
    Our Amendment seeks to restore the 40 per cent. allowance this year. The Chancellor has given 20 per cent., but we do not think that is enough. The main argument for action now is that we are likely to be in a very serious deflationary position next year. To restore the initial allowance now will mean that it will start to have effect next year, by which time I think it is clear that industrial activity will be falling, profits will be falling and companies may
    770
    not be in as good a liquid position as they have been in recent months. Therefore, the allowance will be all the more valuable.
    I think there are very serious danger signals ahead. There is almost universal anxiety over the possible reduction of economic activity in the United States, which is bound to find reflection in this country, and on which the Government will certainly have to take action. As the steps proposed here take a long time to come into effective operation it is as well that they should begin now.
    5.0 p.m.
    Hon. Members may have seen on the tape the report of a speech by Mr. Holt, the Australian Minister of Labour, made at Geneva, in which he pointed out how terrible and tragic it would be if peace were to come in Korea and it should be a liability to the world, because the world would experience a serious economic recession. He said:
    " I have failed to find very much realism, or, indeed, very much energy applied at the international level to this problem."
    We have seen the increasingly restrictionist tendencies in the United States: the instructions, for instance, of the United States Administration to the Export-Import Bank to scrutinise more closely requests for loans, which, obviously, means a curtailment of United States lending abroad, and, consequently, a curtailment in the supply of dollars abroad. We have also seen the recent passing for another year of the United States Reciprocal Trade Act, but with the addition of an extra tariff commissioner who is known to be a Protectionist, and who has, therefore, provided a Protectionist majority.
    I think all these things point to a situation next year in which it will undoubtedly be necessary for the Government to indulge in some form of pump priming if economic activity in this country is to be maintained. As my hon. Friend said, the Chancellor has already primed the consumption pump, and if, next year, there is this sort of recession, which I think is almost inevitable, I do not believe that we shall be able to afford an increase in consumption at home. There is no doubt that we shall have to try greatly to increase our investment in those industries which can make us more self-supporting.

    771
    There is general agreement on all sides of the Committee that we must raise the rate of investment, and I should have thought that this was one way, if only a small contribution, by which it could be done. I sincerely hope that the Chancellor, who, obviously, knows much better than any of us the way the economic winds are blowing at the present time, and who, I am sure, must be extremely anxious about the situation, will accept this Amendment because it may well be that in a few months' time he will have to take much more drastic action even if this Amendment is accepted.
    Mr. Peter Remnant(Workingham): I feel that both the mover and the seconder of this Amendment have re-earned the reproof administered to them last week by their hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever) and that the mover, particularly, would not have fallen into some of the errors into which he fell if he had a more practical experience of business and particularly of the application of initial allowances.
    Mr. Crosland: Does the hon. Gentleman take the view that only people who come from industry should speak on our economic affairs?
    Mr. Remnant: Not at all, but I think that if they speak on them, though I may be out of order in saying this, they should listen carefully and absorb something of the views of industry, particularly concerning an allowance designed to give assistance to industry.
    There is considerable misunderstanding concerning the effect of initial allowances and what they do. One should state quite clearly and categorically that initial allowances do not over the period of depreciation of plant or machinery give an additional reimbursement in respect of the original expenditure involved. What they do is to give in the first year a bigger share of that depreciation. Indeed, what we are doing by initial allowances is mortgaging the future in favour of the present. Whichever way we look at the matter, initial allowances do absolutely nothing to help build up the liquid cash resources of companies except in so far as they reimburse companies for the cash they have expended
    772
    in the purchase of an actual piece of plant or machinery.
    It is quite true, as the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) said, that if there is continual capital expenditure throughout the years and prices remain equal, initial allowances or no initial allowances, the reimbursement will go on at a level rate. But, as we know, costs do not remain level; they either rise or fall. I think that both the mover and the seconder of this Amendment, if I may say so in the most kindly and, I hope, helpful spirit, fail to appreciate that the drain on the liquid cash resources of companies is not only in respect of expenditure on plant or re-equipment. Very briefly, I will give an example of what I mean.
    A company with which I am concerned, and which has a capital of £1 million is engaged in bringing tea to this country for sale in London as opposed to selling it in Calcutta. That operation has involved a demand on the liquid cash resources of that company of slightly more than one-third of its nominal and issued capital.
    Mr. Albu: The hon. Gentleman is giving us a very elementary lesson. If he would do me the honour of reading the speech I made on the Budget he would see that I made exactly this point about the change in prices of materials. I shall be obliged if he will tell me whether when this tea was imported it was a new importation and a new business, or whether it was due to the change in the price of tea?
    Mr. Remnant: The hon. Gentleman, who is so well aware of what is going on, may have heard that tea was derationed during the lifetime of this Government and that in recent years London tea auctions have been re-opened. In my view, London is the better place for keeping tea and it is the better market, but I think we are a little wide of initial allowances on that.
    The point I am making is the necessity for companies to build up liquid cash resources, and that while initial allowances are helpful to the extent that they reimburse industry quicker than under the normal procedure, they do not add to the working capital. I am very grateful for the small help which these allowances will give to industry, but I would

    773
    much have preferred to see the Profits Tax on undistributed profits removed so that the liquid working capital could have been built up, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) said, in advance of future planning, instead of being dependent on something coming back after the actual expenditure has been made.
    Mr. Mitchison: May I ask the hon. Gentleman a question? I have been trying to follow his argument about liquids, particularly liquid cash. I should have thought that one might compare liquid cash with, say, beer in a barrel. If one is drawing continually on the liquid beer or liquid cash, it is surely of some assistance to insert another liquid, preferably beer, but perhaps water, in the top of the barrel to replace the gap caused at the bottom.
    Mr. Remnant: I am not sure of the point of that interruption, though I have yet to learn that the Exchequer is willing to accept a liquid in payment of tax or any other duty, On that aspect of the matter, I believe that our system of cash and cheques, which is a somewhat old-established one, is easier to operate than the system of liquid in a barrel whether with or without water.
    Mr. Frederick Mulley: I do not wish to be involved in the various liquids that appear to be flowing around the Chamber, but I was rather surprised that the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Remnant) called in aid what he termed the common sense which my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever) was alleged to have introduced into our discussions.
    It seems to me that the point we are now discussing is a very common sense one. The whole argument is whether or not initial allowances are interest-free loans. They are certainly interest-free loans. As a matter of common sense, interest-free loans are admirable things and that is what the Chancellor himself has said. Hon. Members opposite should realise that when they adduce arguments against my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) they are directly turning against their own Front Bench, because if interest-free loans are of no value why has the Chancellor, in this Budget, put back the initial allowances?
    774
    All we are asking in this Amendment is that the interest-free loans should be twice the amount suggested by the Chancellor and twice as good as he has proposed. It is a commonsense view that if one wants to borrow money it is better to borrow it free of interest, and it is better to borrow £200 free of interest than £100. That is the common sense economics of the Amendment before the Committee.
    Mr. Summers: The criticism was not so much against interest-free loans. They may have some advantage in these circumstances, but the criticism was that it was described as something else.
    Mr. Mulley: I do not think my hon. Friend was wanting to go further than to say that these were interest-free loans, but the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Remnant) was rather against interest-free loans in principle. I am quite sure that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee would sometimes be glad to avail themselves of interest-free loans if they were available. Hon. Members opposite who take a chary view of a gift horse might be prepared to pass on a tip to others about any interest-free loans they find and of which they themselves do not want to take advantage.
    The other point made was that to take these loans was to mortgage the future. Apart from the Treasury, who have extraordinary ideas about book-keeping, I know no other institution which does not distinguish between capital and revenue expenditure. I do not know how the hon. Member for Wokingham conducts his tea and beer concerns, but I am quite sure that any capital expenditure must be treated as a mortgage on the future. Nobody would expect it to be covered from the working capital in a given year. I agree that probably it is equally important to have regard to the sense of expectations—the right financial atmosphere to encourage industrialists to make the kind of investment that I am sure both sides of the Committee want to see made in the interest of exports and the extension of our engineering and other industries.
    If there is any trouble about expectations it lies with the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has pursued a deliberate deflationary policy, and one of the values of accepting our Amendment is that it will be an indication that he

    775
    wants to see a much higher investment programme. If the Chancellor, in reply, says, "I want to see more investment but I do not want to see such a large volume as the 40 per cent. proposed by the Amendment would permit," I hope he will at least realise that there is a great deal of merit in making 40 per cent. the rate available for industries where there is a special national need for rapid investment.
    In many of the sectors of our industrial life, these are precisely the industries which are finding it difficult to get money, industries which are much more out of date compared with the general average of industry than others. One example, about which I hope we shall have a discussion later, is the brick industry, which is much below the general average of industry from the point of view of modern equipment and modernisation.
    Since the Chancellor accepts the principle of initial allowances, and thinks that they are a good thing and beneficial to industry, I would ask him to take a necessary further step and establish them at a rate which will have the psychological advantage of inducing industry to make investments. I think 40 per cent. may be a balancing factor in the decision whereas 20 per cent. is too small. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot make the overall decision 40 per cent. I hope he will meet us on some of the other Amendments which are likely to be moved.
    5.15 p.m.
    Mr. Ian Horobin: I do not intend to take up much time of the Committee, but as this is the first time in which these allowances have been introduced by a Conservative Government it warrants a few observations, especially in view of the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) in moving the Amendment to increase the proposed allowances themselves.
    I feel that on this side of the Committee my hon. Friends must have been struck by the hon. Member's early observations that a reduction of any kind in business taxation in recent years was not really necessary, and that something peculiar had happened quite recently that, in his opinion, justified any reduction in business taxation. That was
    776
    based on the extraordinary proposition that it was improper for business to put aside money in advance of actually spending it. A more disastrous proposition I cannot imagine.
    The hon. Member, very fairly, drew attention to the fact that even at that time there were some industries who were financially unable to indulge in capital investment which they physically would have been able to do, but the chickens have now come home to roost, the chicken of inflation, that useful synonym for Socialists. There are a great many large firms now who wish they had some of the money for capital investment which had been filched from them in past years, so that they could spend the money without embarrassment and without raising new capital or loans. So much for that point.
    The hon. Gentleman then said it was unreasonable for the Conservative Party to have any doubt on this matter, because in previous years, when the Socialists were in power, they had objected to the removal of the initial allowances. But under a Socialist Government one was grateful for anything one could get hold of, and, after all, that was the only form of relief for industry that they could get, and it was very natural that they should cling on to what they could get. But that is no argument against saying that it was a bad and inefficient way of undoing some of the damage which the general high taxation on industry was doing then, and is doing now, the cost of which we are now discovering.
    Advancing the case for initial allowances, the hon. Member went against all informed opinion on this subject, including the Millard Tucker Committee, and tried to rebut the view that they ranked merely as interest-free loans. He advanced the argument that the British taxpayer would provide money which would never be repaid as it would be lost in unprofitable business. That in many cases is what has happened. Extravagant expenditure has been incurred in some cases, not in all, by a firm going on the general principle, "Oh, well, Sir Stafford Cripps will pay for it." He elaborated that remarkable argument by adding that we who make loans with the taxpayers' money free of interest may find it possible to lend to people who could not possibly get it from anyone else because they are

    777
    not credit-worthy. That is a remarkable statement of policy for any future Socialiist Chancellor of the Exchequer, and possibly the hon. Member is putting himself forward as a candidate.
    The third argument was that, of course, the loan was not a loan because even if it were repaid, a firm frequently borrowed some more. If a local authority, for instance, raised some money and had a sinking fund and continually borrowed more money, that, of course, was not a loan! I leave it to the Committee to decide whether this latest gyration from the benches opposite indicates that they have learned very much about our financial concerns.
    Mr. Crosland: I am sorry to interrupt, but this is a serious point. Does the hon. Gentleman agree, or does he not, that if these allowances continue at any given rate there will be a net annual cost to the Treasury which, in effect, is a continuous remission of taxation for industry?
    Mr. Horobin: We cannot have it all over again. There will be a continuous series of new interest-free loans, some of the old ones having been repaid. Frequently they are interest-free loans to the wrong people for the wrong purposes. Many of us doubt whether these interest-free loans are a good way of helping industry. They do not help it much though they do help it a little. Hon. Members opposite always love loans, especially when, apparently, they are not likely to be repaid, and so they like these allowances.
    The Government have put up the Bank rate, have made borrowing more expensive, and now they have decided to let some people have some money for nothing. That, on the face of it, seems a little odd—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] In case the "Hear, hears" should be too continuous, I hasten to point out that this is not an argument against the general financial policy of the Government, for dear money has many other objects, such as its effects on stocks and confidence. But I submit that it is a doubtful financial policy for Her Majesty's Government, on the one hand, to carry too far a policy of trying to make people more conscious of the real cost of borrowing money, because that is what we have been doing and, on the
    778
    other hand, of trying to help industry by lending it some of its own money back interest-free.
    While there may be a case at the present time for using this device for giving assistance to industry, I am one of those who think that the money could have been spent to help industry in other ways. At least it is a return to a doubtful policy which has been defended here again this afternoon on grounds which cannot commend themselves to hon. Members on this side of the Committee. I think it extremely doubtful whether it would be wise to continue or to extend the principle of assisting industry in this way. It encourages the belief that there is an ingenious alternative to leaving industry its own money: namely, by first taking it away and then lending some of it back: even for nothing.
    Mr. Mitchison: I agree with one sentence from the speech of the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Horobin): he thinks that the money could better have been spent in other ways. This is not a case of spending money but of remitting taxation and I should get sadly out of order if I suggested some obvious ways in which taxation might have been remitted in this Budget which would have a good effect on those who possibly need a remission more than the persons who will benefit by these initial allowances.
    So far, I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but the rest of his speech only added to the confusion which I was feeling after listening to the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The hon. Gentleman explained first that it was difficult for companies nowadays to find money for capital expenditure. That is as it may be but, if he holds that view, I should have thought that he would have welcomed this concession. Having said that, he proceeded to explain that he did not like it and that, so far from wanting it increased, he would rather not have had it.
    The hon. Gentleman will be able to deal with that when we come to the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" and will be able to give that suitable expression to his views which I am sure we shall all admire and respect when he does it. For the moment, I shall not chase him round what seemed to me to be a number of rather startling inconsistencies in his speech. We are entitled to

    779
    take our views only from those who have experience in industry. I dare say the hon. Gentleman has experience in industry and, if so, the Committee will form its own opinion upon how far that experience enables him to make a lucid exposition of the matter which we are now considering.
    I have one objection to this Clause, which would be remedied by the Amendment, and which has not so far been stated. I recognise that initial allowances are not a cure, as has been said already. They represent, of course, only a limited concession and I shall not go into arguments, which seemed to me to vary between the absurd and the metaphysical, as to whether they are a tax-free loan or whether they are something substantial, and whether the nature of a constantly flowing stream of money can be looked at statically, which is what it seemed we were getting to at times, or whether it cannot. I leave the metaphysical effect of the constant emptying and replenishing of the Chancellor's barrel, or the companies' barrel in this case, to be considered by those particularly interested in speculation.
    At any rate, the Chancellor is restoring the initial allowances and, by so doing, he will undoubtedly enable companies who desire to make certain capital expenditure to do so. We need go no further than that. These initial allowances apply to three types of expenditure. The first type is buildings which is unaltered, and the last type is mining and oil wells which is unaltered.
    Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Gentleman must make the case correctly. On the contrary, the allowances on mining exploration are greatly increased, being put up from 10 per cent. to 40 per cent.
    Mr. Mitchison: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the correction and he will appreciate that it makes my point even stronger.
    Discrimination has been made against expenditure on plant and machinery. One of the others has been left as it is, a second has been increased and this one has been cut. I fail to understand why, if the initial allowances are to be restored at all, there has been a cut in
    780
    this type at this time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cut?"] I say cut because the effect of the first subsection of this Clause is to restore the allowance at the original rate in the 1952 Act. The effect of the subsection which we now seek to leave out is to cut by half what would otherwise be the allowance. I thought hon. Gentlemen opposite knew all about cuts, and if that is not a cut, I do not know what is.
    It is unfair, when restoring initial allowances in all these cases, to halve the initial allowances in the case of one, and that one plant and machinery. If we are to have peace in Korea and peace in the near East, which I am sure we all want; if what is going on now leads to any slowing down of armament expenditure —and, again, we all want that so far as we can safely have it; if that is to happen, then the one place where its effect will be felt particularly is in the industries that supply plant and machinery.
    I suggest that it is dangerous to select those industries for a reduction in the initial allowances which are being otherwise restored and, as the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) pointed out, in one case actually increased. I do not understand how the Chancellor has felt able to take the risk, when restoring initial allowances at all, to select that one industry for a reduction in the initial allowances.
    5.30 p.m.
    It is true that the initial allowances give to the company which makes the purchase of plant and machinery—we all know that quite well; but the effect of it, obviously, will be felt in the trades which supply the plant and machinery, and I should have thought it was a most undesirable moment to make it in that respect. There is another reason. I should have thought there were signs that some parts, at any rate, of the industries that supply plant and machinery could, at the moment, be developed considerably. In some parts of the industry their exports have been rising. I should have thought it was a moment when they ought to be given all possible encouragement. Therefore, I regret the risk that is being taken in making this discrimination against it.
    We can all think of instances, but I am not sure that it takes us much further to go chasing for instances, some of

    781
    which will be stronger than others and others not so strong. The main point is why, when restoring initial allowances and thereby conferring some advantage, at any rate, on industry, they should be halved in the particular case of supplies of plant and machinery with the effect that that is bound to have on the trades or sections of industry that are primarily concerned with supplying plant and machinery.
    I was a little surprised, in that connection, to hear the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers), who, after all, has some connection with iron and steel, objecting particularly to the Amendment. I should have thought that he would have welcomed it. Perhaps it was a tribute to his quite disinterested views on the matter that he took the other line. I hope that the Chancellor will be able to reconsider this matter and, in view of the situation in the world at the moment and the real risks of unemployment in this country, to extend the full concessions to plant and machinery.
    I add only one word. We were told what had changed. Why was it that this moment was suitable for the restoration of initial allowances? I put it very simply. What is changed is that as a result of the policy of right hon. and hon. Members opposite money is much tighter than it was, because we have proceeded from a fair level between inflation and deflation to what I now regard, frankly, as a deflationary position. It is just because money is tight that this concession, among others, has had to be made by the Chancellor in this Budget; and it ought to be made fully and fairly in this respect.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): I assure the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) that I shall not seek to put upon the fact that he moved the Amendment the sinister interpretation which he indicated might be put upon it. I assume that he was selected for this task for the very good reason that he was expected to do as he did; that is to say, to put the case with moderation, clarity and force.
    If he will forgive me, I shall not follow what the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) said, for the reason that there' will be an opportunity
    782
    on later Amendments to deal with the question of discriminating rates of allowances. That issue is not raised by the Amendment, which poses quite clearly, without discrimination, a proposal that the rate of initial allowance on plant and machinery should be at the rate of 40 per cent. and not at the rate of 20 per cent., as is proposed in the Clause.
    I do not think it would be necessary or desirable that I should waste very much of the time of the Committee in arguing broadly and in general the question aye or no as to whether the general financial and economic position was such as to justify, in principle, the restoration of initial allowances. Suffice it to say that by reintroducing them in this Clause, my right hon. Friend has indicated that so far as he is concerned he regards the situation as being now appropriate for their restoration.
    All that we are concerned with on the Amendment is the, in a sense narrow, though I appreciate important, issue as to whether so far as plant and machinery is concerned the allowances should be restored at the rate of 20 per cent., which was the rate current between 1945 and 1949, or at the rate of 40 per cent., which, as the Committee will recall, was the rate in force between 1949 and their withdrawal in 1951. That is the issue which is posed by the Amendment, and thought upon it is not really clarified by accepting the ingenious doctrine of the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) that by restoring them from nothing to 20 per cent., my right hon. Friend is imposing a cut.
    One of the major objections to the proposals raised by the Amendment is the cost. The right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) had occasion the other day to indicate what he regarded as the error of my ways in the question of cost in this sphere, although he did not feel himself bound to adopt that view on a much smaller matter where, also, a delay in the payment of tax was involved.
    We can proceed without unduly troubling ourselves with what one hon. Member described as the metaphysical aspects of this question by looking at it in this way. First, whatever may be the very long-term consequence, the consequence over the next few years of acceptance of the Amendment would be a very

    783
    substantial reduction in the revenue— that is undoubtedly so. There is also the element, on which I put less weight, but to which the right hon. Gentleman referred on a previous occasion, that if, by the operation of the initial allowances, we delay collection of revenue, certain elements of cost arise as a result of the consequential necessity to borrow. That, however, is a much smaller factor, and I mention it only for the sake of completeness.
    What is undoubtedly the fact is that the effect of the Amendment on the Budgets of 1954–55 and 1955–56 would be a loss of revenue in 1954–55 of about £44 million and in 1955–56 of about £76 million—that is to say, perhaps rather obviously, doubling the cost generally of the proposals as they stand. Those are substantial figures.
    The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South asked for a figure for the net loss over a period of 10 years at 40 per cent. I have been endeavouring to get him that figure, which can only be arrived at by somewhat abstruse and complex calculations. I have not yet been able to get the figure, but if it turns out to be possible for it to be made available—I give no undertaking—it will, no doubt, be possible for either myself or one of my right hon. or hon. Friends to give it on a subsequent Amendment or at a subsequent stage. I merely mention that now to assure the hon. Member that we are doing our best to find the figure, but at the moment, I regret to say, I am not in a position to give it to him. The figures I have given of the effect upon the financial proposals of my right hon. Friend next year and the year after show that we are concerned here with very substantial figures.
    I do not dispute for a moment that there is some force in the argument of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South that if we were looking on the matter solely from the inflationary-deflationary point of view one must admit to some modification of the significance of those figures. The argument of hon. Members opposite, however, rests on certain assumptions, not all of which are material, in the construction of a Budget and a series of financial proposals. The hon. Member will realise that we cannot be sure of the situation so far in advance.
    784
    Here, we are concerned with proposals whose cost in the current year would be negligible, but the large additional reductions in revenue two years ahead would amount to a matter of considerable substance.
    It is perfectly true, as the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said on a previous occasion in this context, that if other adjustments of taxation were not made it might be possible, with greater substance, to expect reductions of this kind. That is a generality with which I think none of us need quarrel. It is, indeed, an obvious aspect of Budget making. I do not want for that reason to be led into any argument on matters which this Committee have already decided—for example, the matter which the Committee decided on Clause 12. I would only refer indirectly to that consideration by posing this argument.
    listening to one or two of the arguments addressed from the other side of the Committee—arguments on the importance of encouraging investment which, taken by themselves, I am desirous not to controvert—one would think it was being suggested that initial allowances were, to all intents and purposes, the only substantial factor in the encouragement of investment. I think that was the general tenor of the arguments. It seems to me a writing down and an under valuing of the other factors which, it seems, affect decisions whether to invest or not, which, of course, are themselves affected by the other changes in taxation to which I have referred.
    It is true that if somebody decides or desires to expand his business his doing so is facilitated by the restoration of initial allowances. That is one of the reasons for my right hon. Friend restoring them by this Clause. But I think it right to say, as my hon. Friends the Members for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) and Oldham, East (Mr. Horobin) said, that there was a tendency to exaggerate the importance of the initial allowances in this context. There are, surely, other factors equally material in the minds of many people who make the decision affecting an industry. They have to consider the general conditions, whether of confidence or the reverse, and also whether or not there is a reasonable probability, if their operations are successful, that they will make profits and

    785
    be able to retain some proportion of them.
    Those are considerations which weigh with those concerned alongside the existence or non-existence of initial allowances at any particular rate. Once the decision has been made, and one would like to expand, the initial allowances play their part in facilitating the expansion. I think it will not be suggested that anyone acts irresponsibly as making a decision solely on the grounds of the temporary advantage that the existence of initial allowances gives. If that were so, it would be clear that decisions were made in an irresponsible way and it would be very wrong to encourage that impression.
    The Budget of my right hon. Friend provides a balance in these matters. Here we are discussing the restoration of these allowances to the level at which they operated when introduced by Lord Waverley, and at which they operated from 1945 to 1949. They play their part in the encouragement of industry, but so, I suggest to the Committee, do other lightenings of the burden of taxation which my right hon. Friend has embodied in the Budget and which, as the right hon. Member for Battersea, North said in the passage to which I have referred, to some extent compete with the moneys available for those allowances.
    Without seeking to undervalue these allowances—I would not do that for a moment and there is no need so to do because we are, in fact, proposing to restore them—I suggest that it is really not an operation in a properly balanced series of financial proposals to concentrate, as hon. Members opposite appear to have done, so undue an emphasis on them to the express exclusion of the other matters and the other changes in taxation which, it seems to me, are also material both in the sphere of investment itself as, indeed, over the whole broad sphere of our national economic well-being.
    5.45 p.m.
    I hope that the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South and his hon. Friends will not think that what I have been trying to say is in any sense unsympathetic to a great deal of what they and my hon. Friends have in mind. The issue between us narrows down perhaps
    786
    —as so many of these questions do—to a matter of judgment. My right hon. Friend has concluded that the time is ripe for the restoration of these allowances. He has to weigh the cost of them over the next two or three years against the other factors to which I have referred and has to come to a decision as to what is reasonable in all the circumstances. His reasoning is founded upon this idea of a balanced progress in this and in other connections which, I suggest, is the sensible approach.
    I suggest, with great respect to hon. Members opposite, that what appears to me to be their excessive emphasis on this one particular instance underrates the importance and value of the other weapons in the armoury of my right hon. Friend. I suggest to the Committee that this large and, in a financial sense, costly step—but, I think, a wise and sensible one—is right in the circumstances of today and that it would be unwise to take it further as this Amendment suggests.
    Mr. John Strachey: I think that, in listening to this discussion, hon. Members on this side of the Committee must have been considerably struck by the fact that hon. Members opposite have been engaged in looking very hard into the mouth of the gift horse. It is not quite as big a gift horse as we think it ought to be, but, as the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has just shown, it is a very substantial gift horse to industry. I could not help reflecting why they showed such reluctance to receive it. Why is it that they regard this particular form of reduction of taxation on industry—for which they are always pressing, very naturally—so very narrowly and with so very little enthusiasm?
    The explanation is perhaps an interesting sociological point. They depreciated this in every possible way. They have called it merely an interest-free loan and almost suggested that an interest-free loan is something quite valueless. As has been pointed out by the mover of the Amendment and by other hon. Members, it is not only an interest-free loan, but in many cases an interest-free loan for an indefinite period, and an interest-free loan for an indefinite period comes very near to being a gift.
    The hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Horobin), in one of his forthright

    787
    speeches, suggested that it really did nothing to solve the problem because it would not help industry to accumulate capital funds but merely encourage their investment in plant and machinery. He went so far as to say that industry ought for a series of years to accumulate funds without spending them and then to invest a sort of nest egg which had accumulated over a series of years. He said that those of us who did not take that view were ignorant indeed.
    I should have thought that, if he read contemporary economics, he would find that the contemporary economic view is that to accumulate a surplus over a series of years without investing it at all is as good a recipe for creating a slump as we could possibly have. This concession which the Government are giving, rightly I think, although insufficiently as we believe, is directed precisely to encouraging investment, and I think it is because it is linked so closely and so rigidly to investment that it receives such a terribly cold welcome from hon. Members opposite.
    The hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Remnant), who is not now in his place, spoke about the tea trade. He showed— and, of course, it is perfectly true—that investment is not always for the purposes of plant and machinery; it may be for providing working capital. The instance he gave naturally interested me as a former Minister of Food because, as he pointed out, the working capital for transporting tea from India and Ceylon to this country used to be provided, directly or indirectly, by the Ministry of Food, and when that ended his firm found it had to supply a great deal of new working capital for the process. That is, of course, a new form of investment, just as much as providing plant and machinery.
    Surely the gravamen of his argument is that the Chancellor ought to find a method of supplying initial allowances for that purpose also. I do not know whether it is a practicable thing to do, but that is the logic of his argument—and it is not a bad one—that initial allowances, if valuable for acts of investment in plant and machinery, are equally valuable for acts of investment in increased working capital; but in either case initial allowances link the concession, loan, gift, whatever you like to call it, to industry closely with the new act of investment.
    788
    That, I think, is why we on this side welcome initial allowances so strongly. They are so different from a general remission of taxation, with which the Financial Secretary was comparing them. That general remission of taxation, for instance, on the standard rate of Income tax is a very remote link indeed with new investment. It may be simply, to put it quite frankly, an encouragement to high expenditure. Here we have a method of remission closely linked to increasing the volume of investment. It is an accumulation which has been earned socially under these initial allowances, and it can still be spent socially; it will never pass to the hands of individuals at all. The firm, in order to earn it, has to provide a new act of investment of one kind or another, and that is a very great advantage.
    I therefore warmly support this Amendment because, as my hon. Friends the Members for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) and Edmonton (Mr. Albu) have said, we may be entering a period—and I hope we are, because it will be associated with a lower level of defence expenditure and better world conditions—when new acts of investment of all kinds in this country will be desperately important if we are to maintain our level of employment and prevent our going down into another period of stagnation. I therefore think the Chancellor would be well advised, in his own interests and in the interests of his Government also, to think very carefully whether he has gone far enough in this direction.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I thought that in his reply the Financial Secretary was attempting to ride two rather ill-matched horses, because he was attempting to put before the Committee two propositions, the first of which was that this Amendment, if accepted, would cost the Treasury a very substantial amount of revenue which could not be afforded, and the second of which was that it was very easy to exaggerate the importance of the concession and the effect it would have in getting other investment.
    The Financial Secretary cannot have it both ways. After all, to the extent that this concession is not fully effective in stimulating investment it will not cost the Treasury a penny. That is the beauty of initial allowances from the point of

    789
    view of stimulating investment; those who do not invest do not get the money, and in that respect it is distinct from any other form of taxation concession. If this Amendment would cost the Treasury a great deal of money, it would also stimulate a great deal of new investment which would not otherwise take place.
    Leading on from that point, the Financial Secretary said that it was undesirable to place too much concentration upon this one weapon for stimulating investment, and that other factors were also of very great importance, such as general business tone and general business confidence, and that we should look at the other measures in the Budget which have been designed to improve these methods.
    Now these other methods of increasing investment are much more indirect, for, if they are to be effective, as far as I can see they are bound to operate much more in increasing the level of consumption, and by that means making people who might be deciding whether or not to invest think that the prospects for investment are rather better. But if one is in danger perhaps of reflating one's economy to full activity, doing it to a very large extent by increases in consumption rather than by increases in investment—and I think we all agree, as I know the Chancellor has certainly felt for some considerable time, that the great need at the present time is to increase investment rather than consumption—looking back over the two months' effect the Budget has had so far it would be very difficult to say with absolute confidence that it was reflating the economy by increasing investment rather than by increasing consumption. Certainly the figures of the labour movement which we have had do not indicate any very healthy tendencies in this direction.
    I want, if I may, to say a few words on the, as always, extremely entertaining speech of the hon. Member for Oldham, East. He certainly advanced some extraordinary propositions, some of which have already been dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey). I was particularly entertained to hear the hon. Gentleman saying that it was surely illogical to be advocating substantial initial allowances at the same time as having a high Bank rate,
    790
    and it was surely illogical to make payments with one hand and give them away with interest-free loans, or whatever they might be, with the other.
    I was particularly amused, because I recall a debate on the 1951 Finance Bill when the present Minister of Works was challenged by us for putting forward precisely that proposition. He wanted stable credit terms, and he was resisting the withdrawal of initial allowances. He asked whether this position was not illogical, and said it appealed only to academic economists, but that to hard-headed businessmen like himself and the hon. Member for Oldham, East it was obvious how this should be carried on.
    Another extraordinary proposition which came from the hon. Member for Oldham, East was that it was absolutely scandalous to talk about giving interest-free loans to companies which were not credit-worthy in the normal commercial sense; that that was a grave misuse of public money. I thought that was an extraordinary proposition. We have admittedly moved on two decades from the day when the "Macmillan gap" was first thought about, but he would be a very rash person who would say that there do not exist at the present time any examples of small businesses which are thoroughly sound and credit-worthy, but which none the less cannot get commercial loans just because they are too small to make it worth while for finance houses to investigate them, with all the trouble and cost that involves.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. Horobin: The hon. Member challenges me on this point. I could not see the substance of his previous point when he referred to someone else; but on this point, does he really suggest that it is a sound and prudent way of spending a good sum of money, because he thinks there may be small firms who cannot borrow, to give I.C.I., or Shell, an initial allowance?
    Mr. Jenkins: That was not all the point which the hon. Member for Oldham, East was making. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South said that one of the advantages of initial allowances was that it would make money available—if the Committee wish, in the form of loans—to companies which might not be able to get the money

    791
    through the ordinary commercial financial channels. The hon. Member for Oldham, East says, "What an argument, to give away public money to companies which could not borrow elsewhere."
    I say it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, because there are many small companies which are thoroughly creditworthy but which may not be able to get money on the market. After all, it was a Conservative Minister, Lord Waverley as he now is, who initiated—at least he was Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time—the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation. It would be nonsense to suggest that the I.C.F.C. have done a job so complete as to close the "Macmillan gap" and created a condition which accepts all these small companies which may have difficulties of this kind.
    Mr. Harold Lever: Would my hon. Friend be good enough to tell the Committee—I am merely searching for information— what is the "Macmillan gap"? I have been waiting patiently for an explanation of it.
    Mr. Jenkins: I thought, from his earlier interventions, that my hon. Friend the Member for Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever) was most well-informed on these financial matters.
    Mr. Lever: I specifically denied expert knowledge.
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not wish to enter into anything which will bring another lecture from the hon. Member, but if I may say it in one sentence, the expression "Macmillan gap" refers to the gap which there was where companies of a credit-worthy nature could not get fianace in the way I have been talking about. It was brought forward by a committee which I think sat in——
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Now explain the Macmillan Report.
    Mr. Jenkins: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I would propose to give that part of my lecture later.
    I have been surprised in this debate to find that there is a cleavage of belief
    792
    between hon. Members on the back benches opposite and my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee. In view of the Budget and the Finance Bill he was defending, the Financial Secretary could not throw initial allowances out of the window, as some of his hon. Friends have been doing. Some of his hon. Friends have been taking a very hostile attitude indeed towards the whole principle of initial allowances. To some extent this attitude is a test of the sincerity of the party opposite on one point. After all, if they are continually saying that they want taxation concessions to industry in order to increase investment, and if they really mean that, they should vote for this Amendment. If they are using that as a smokescreen for the purpose of getting taxation concessions for industry for other purposes, they will not like this Amendment—but that is not a very creditable point of view.
    Mr. Gartskell: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) that one of the surprising things about this debate has been the attitude of hon. Members on the back benches opposite toward initial allowances. I shared the belief that there would have been a much larger measure of agreement between the two sides of the Committee; and it certainly is something which must make all of us wonder how serious hon. Members opposite are in their protestations that they would like to see a higher level of investment in industry.
    The Financial Secretary, on the other hand, was careful not to attack in any way the principle of initial allowances and, so far as I could make out, in general he accepted the interesting analysis given by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland). He defended the Government's refusal—I understand it was a refusal—to accept this Amendment on the ground, first, that it would cost too much, and, secondly, on the ground, which I did not think a very impressive argument, that we attached too much importance to initial allowances.
    On the second point, I agree that we believe that this device helps the country considerably; but the Financial Secretary is mistaken if he supposes that my right hon. and hon. Friends believe

    793
    this is the only measure necessary in order to jerk the level of investment in this country on to a much higher plane. We all realise there are limits to what it can do, and indeed it will be part of my argument to show that it has a limited effect, but is nevertheless worth while.
    I do not think there is much disagreement about the need for a higher level of investment, and I suppose the Financial Secretary is also in agreement that there is a greater need to stimulate investment now than there has been for some years. When we had to suspend the initial allowances two years ago, when the defence programme was beginning, we did so with much regret, realising quite clearly and definitely that it would involve a cut in investment—indeed doing it precisely for that reason. We felt this was necessary in order, so to speak, to clear the way for the defence programme, because nothing would secure a sufficiently speedy development of that programme except an actual reduction in civilian investment.
    Today the position is different. In the first place, the engineering industries which, broadly, we are concerned with in this Amendment, are certainly not nearly so overloaded with orders as they were at that time. Indeed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South pointed out, there are certain signs of slack appearing in this sector of our economy. Manpower is falling and the number of orders on the order books is dropping. This situation calls for a change of policy, for reverting to the policy as it existed before 1951.
    I do not propose on this Amendment to discuss the precise reasons the engineering industry is in this different situation today. I would mention, in passing, only my personal belief that the Government's monetary policy, credit policy, has something to do with it. It is extremely difficult to operate the Bank rate policy so as to discourage businessmen from accumulating stocks—and indeed encourage them to dis-stock so far as it is possible—without at the same time creating a general discouraging atmosphere for investment. That may have something to do with the rather sharp psychological effect of the rise in the Bank rate.
    794
    If we concede—and I do not by any means entirely concede it—that the Bank rate policy of the Government is an effective way of causing a fall in stocks, or of stopping the accumulation of stocks, there would still be the difficulty to be faced of how to do that and at the same time stimulate long-term investment. I believe that one of the valuable instruments for dealing with that dilemma is a system of initial allowances, because, as several of my hon. Friends have said, it is so directly related to capital expenditure on plant and machinery.
    The second argument which should be brought out at this stage is that more long-term investment, a higher rate of investment, is clearly essential if we are to achieve the increase in productivity which we are all agreed that we must achieve. That was in Sir Stafford Cripps's mind when he originally increased the allowance to 40 per cent.
    In those circumstances it is natural to ask ourselves whether the Budget was well adapted to producing this increase in investment. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South said, no doubt the Chancellor in making his concessions on taxation and in encouraging additional spending hoped that one way or another, directly or indirectly— and it would be mostly indirectly—there would be encouragement given to business men to invest more. I doubted during our Budget debates whether in fact his belief was well founded, but I always conceded, as he will agree, that this measure—the increase of the initial allowance—was a wise one. We have never opposed it. Our criticism is that it is not enough.
    We are now discussing the general issue whether or not the initial allowance should be raised to 40 per cent. again. We are not concerned with the separate issue whether the recommendation of the Millard Tucker Report should be followed and the Treasury given powers to allow different allowances in different industries. We shall come to that later. It is a difficult question—if one had to answer it—as to which of the two measures, a general increase of 40 per cent. or a general power to the Treasury to raise the rate, would be appropriate. In present circumstances I am inclined to prefer the first. I believe that the raising of the rate all round to 40 per cent. is justified.

    795
    But if we do not succeed in persuading the Government that that is right, we shall certainly press very strongly indeed for the discriminating system of allowances. We have had a lot of discussion about the nature of the initial allowance. I do not propose to delay the Committee very long over that. I do not think that there ought to be much disagreement about it. What happens is that the businessman who gets the benefit of a higher initial allowance is able, in respect of the year in which he spends the money on the additional equipment, to save a certain amount in taxation. It is roughly half what the expenditure was.
    On the other hand, if we take that piece of machinery alone, obviously he is able to write off less of it in later years. Therefore, his profits for those years are higher and his taxation is higher as well. It is worth noticing, in passing, that one of the main arguments put forward when the system was originally introduced by Sir John Anderson, as he then was, was the increased cost of replacement. There was a great deal of discussion about the difficulty which industry had in raising money. It was, so to speak, a direct physical shortage of cash that was said to be involved. The Millard Tucker Report treats the whole subject of initial allowances exclusively on that basis.
    The case for initial allowances, however, is a good deal wider than that. It is not merely a matter of providing additional cash. It is a question of stimulating, of giving an incentive—and I will mention in a moment what the main incentive is—to businessmen to invest.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South made three telling points about initial allowances. These were denounced or opposed by some hon. Members opposite. But one other hon. Member, although in rather strident terms, in effect supported his explanations of what the initial allowance did. The hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Horobin) denounced the system of initial allowances precisely because it had in his opinion all the qualities my hon. Friend described, so there is some contradiction there. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) and his hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East had better get
    796
    together and clear their minds on the subject.
    6.15 p.m.
    The three points my hon. Friend made were, first, that this device is directly relating taxation to expenditure on capital equipment. That is not in dispute. It may be—indeed it is so—that certain types of expenditure out of borrowed money are linked; others are not so closely linked. But my hon. Friend's point was not just then to contrast the initial allowance with the borrowing of money by local authorities or anything of that kind. He was contrasting it with conceding reductions in taxation on undistributed profits. There can be no dispute that he was right in the point he made.
    Hon. Members opposite may believe, I am sure with all sincerity, that a reduction of taxation on undistributed profits would lead to increased capital expenditure; but they cannot prove that it will so lead. There is no necessary link between the two. The money that would otherwise have been paid over in taxation may simply be retained or invested in securities of one kind or another or, of course, part of it can be paid out in dividends. The initial allowance, therefore, is different in that respect because it is related to expenditure.
    Secondly, my hon. Friend contended that it was not simply an interest-free loan because in certain conditions it did not have to be repaid. I think that what he said was not properly understood. He qualified it very carefully. He said in effect that if the rate of initial allowance does remain unchanged indefinitely, then there always will be so much outstanding with industry. An appropriate way to describe it, I think my hon. Friend would agree, would be as a kind of revolving credit. As I understand it, that is all the point that he was making there. It is really an issue of terminology whether one says that that is or is not an interest-free loan. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) said, the revolving credit which does not have to be repaid is certainly of considerable value to industry. There can be no doubt about that.
    The third argument of my hon. Friend was that, of course, initial allowances differed from loans in that if a loss were made in the later years of the life of the

    797
    company no repayment had to be made. The hon. Member for Oldham, East used that as his reason for denouncing the whole idea. I say to him and to the Committee that, on the contrary, I believe that to be the most valuable feature of the initial allowance. It may sound strange to say that, but the difficulty is to get business men to undertake risky investments. We are always hearing that from hon. Gentlemen opposite. They are always telling us that taxation is so high that nobody dare take a chance. The initial allowance is a great help in that respect.
    The businessman spends his money on the plant. He is able to write off 40 per cent. plus another 10 per cent. in the first year—50 per cent. in one year. If he subsequently runs into a loss, he does not have to repay because he is not earning profits and he has not, therefore, to pay tax on them. That is the remarkable difference between the initial allowance and the ordinary loan.
    Mr. Nabarro: The right hon. Gentleman, in making a statement like that, takes no account of the fact that every prudent businessman having derived a temporary benefit from an initial allowance puts it into an equalisation fund to be used over the remainder of the life of the plant. He derives no benefit whatever from it. It is only of benefit to the small business.
    Mr. Gaitskell: If it is of benefit to the small business, that is a good thing. There are a very large number of small businesses. I do not say that the ordinary prudent businessman does not put money into a taxation reserve fund, or something like that. That is not my point. My point is that he undertakes the investment because he does not have to repay the loan if it turns out to be an unprofitable one—I mean an unprofitable one in the sense that the whole business makes a loss. I do not think anybody would controvert the view that that is of very substantial importance, and it is something which I believe to be very necessary in present circumstances.
    The Government will no doubt concede much of the argument, but will say, on the other hand, that they do not think that the rate should be above 20 per cent. I find it very hard to understand why they raised it to only 20 per cent. and not to what it was before—40 per cent. I
    798
    admit that one can conduct an argument on what the rate should be, and that one could say that it should be 50 or even 60 per cent., but 40 per cent. was, in fact, the previous rate, and I had fully expected that the Chancellor would make that adjustment this year.
    In fact, the only answer to the argument given by the Financial Secretary is that it would cost too much. I ask the Chancellor to reconsider the matter. When I had to suspend the initial allowances, I remember pointing out to the Committee at the time that I was taking no credit for the saving which it would involve to the Exchequer, and I said that because it would be offset by corresponding changes in the level of undistributed profits. I agree that one cannot prove that that is so. While it is conceivable that a business man who gets the initial allowances would not behave in the way in which the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) says he does, and would, in fact, pay out the saving which he makes in decreased taxation by way of additional dividends, it is a fair assumption that, in the vast majority of cases, he would behave as the hon. Member suggested, and that the money would go into undistributed profits. Therefore, any loss of revenue by the Exchequer is balanced by an increase in company savings, and there can be no consequential inflationary influence on that account.
    The Financial Secretary described this particular point as a matter which, if we liked, we could look at as one of inflation, deflation and all that, but we have to look at the Budget from that point of view. The decisions which the Chancellor reached both this year and last year as to the size of the Budget surplus were precisely dependent upon what he thought about inflation, deflation and all that. That is real budgeting, and I do-not think there is any dispute between the Chancellor and myself, because we have to look at the Budget in that way.
    What is perfectly true is that, if the device is successful, as I believe it will be, we shall get an increase in investment that might have certain inflationary influences, but this year the Chancellor wants a little inflationary influence, and he is distributing money in order to bring that about. What we say is that we need not merely a general stimulus but a

    799
    stimulus to certain parts of the economy, and, above all, to our investment industries.
    Therefore, I say to the Financial Secretary that the argument about the cost is not a convincing one. I did not use the device in any way as something which was to save us money, although the Budget position was far from easy in that year. I do not think it is something which ought to be taken into account in that way. One might describe it as investment by the Government or by the Treasury, which, in my view, would be overwhelmingly worth while if it did produce an increase in the equipment of our industries.
    What other arguments have been put forward? Hon. Gentlemen opposite have rested their case—if it is a case—on the ground that they would much prefer to have a reduction of taxation on undistributed profits. Of course, even if we agreed about that, that would still be no argument against the initial allowances, and hon. Gentlemen opposite must know perfectly well that it has not always been easy to extort reductions in taxation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is unwise, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West said, to look a gift horse in the mouth. Moreover, I have already explained why, in our view, concessions on undistributed profits are much less calculated to produce the results which we believe should be produced.
    My last point is this. There has been a most extraordinary change from the attitude adopted by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite in 1951. I know that it is common for hon. Members, when sitting on one side of the House, to talk in slightly different terms from those which they used when they were on the other side. This is not a straightforward party issue, but a technical matter. I should have thought that the case for reducing and suspending the initial allowances, although hotly disputed by the right hon. Gentleman himself, was very much more powerful in 1951 than it is today.
    The situation has changed, and we are all glad that we are over the hump of the defence programme. We may not be agreed on why a general deflationary
    800
    atmosphere exists, but that it does exist, as compared with that time, cannot be denied. The Chancellor spoke in that debate, when he begged us to think again. I cannot understand how, having in 1951 demonstrated the case in favour of 40 per cent., he can now refuse, in these far more suitable circumstances, to put it back again, and on this occasion I therefore ask the Chancellor to think again.
    It really is a matter of the highest importance to industry. We have put these arguments, as I am sure the Chancellor will agree, in a constructive and moderate manner. We believe that this is one of the most important things that could be done to help British industry, and I therefore urge the Chancellor to reconsider it. If he will not do that, we shall certainly divide the Committee on the Amendment.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) that we have had a useful debate, and I think that we might bring this particular issue of whether the allowance should be 40 per cent. or 20 per cent. to a decision now, or, at least, very soon. I can assure hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who wish to take part in the further debate on the initial allowances that there will be ample opportunity for them to do so, stretching away far into the night, on the many Amendments which have yet to be called. Therefore, there need be no disappointment if we should decide this particular issue very soon. There are other issues involved in Amendments to follow, and there will be plenty of opportunity for oratorical and dialectical brilliance.
    The right hon. Gentleman reminded me, as did the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland), of my speech in 1951. What we were doing then was showing some quite legitimate and righteous indignation that the right hon. Gentleman should have departed from the advice to which today he attaches so much importance, and we were beseeching him not to do so. I did not have reason then, and I have no reason now, to question the reasons why he did not do it. That is a matter for the past, and I do not wish to muddy the complexion of this debate by referring to it. There was a risk last year, and

    801
    I think there is a risk now, that, under the pressure of events, over-investment might cause our balance of payments position to deteriorate, and I was expecting last year to have to take this step.
    This year, thanks to the wise and beneficial administration of our finances, through the monetary policy adopted by the Government and in other ways, all sorts of doors have been opened to us again, and this year we were really building up an enlightened Budget designed for the very purposes to which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have been devoting most of their remarks; namely, to increase investment in productive industry and to moderate any deflationary tendency that might millitate against the proper and full employment of our people. In so far as one can judge, so very soon after the Budget, things are certainly developing in a way which is not entirely unsatisfactory. I cannot go further than that.
    One of the difficulties of a Chancellor of the Exchequer after the Budget has been introduced is that he cannot judge its effect immediately, and very often the summer is an uneasy time during which he is waiting to see the medicine working upon the patient. All I can do is to say that the curve of production, in so far as we have been able to assess it up to the end of April, is continuing to show a satisfactory trend. We are, in fact, showing signs of improving production, for the purpose of which the Budget was framed. Now we must all watch and hope and pray that in the national interest, quite apart from any of our controversies, production and productivity will improve, because that is the only hope we have of keeping our place and meeting the immense expenses we have upon us.
    6.30 p.m.
    When I came to frame the Budget, I was able to release a certain amount, and I was able, as my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary so ably stated, to achieve a certain balance by releasing a certain amount of the Purchase Tax which was calculated to go straight into consumer spending. A certain amount of the 6d. off Income Tax was calculated to go into consumer spending and to help industry in precisely the sphere of investment through going into the undistributed profits of industry, the figure for which
    802
    was calculated in the Budget at about £45 million.
    When we totted up the figures we found they amounted to about as much as we could handle this year in the way of remission, namely, £160 million, but when we totted up the future figures we saw that by the various remissions made in the Budget we were putting on to future Budgets a considerable burden. It was against that background that I had to calculate whether I could manage to restore the initial allowances at 20 per cent. or 40 per cent., and it was against that future look that I decided that it was impossible to go further than 20 per cent., because, as has been stated, if we take £6 million for industrial buildings and £2 million for mining works and add those to the £76 million for machinery and plant, the cost in a full year will be as much as £84 million, even on the basis of the 20 per cent. I have suggested.
    The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) asked my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary what the cost of this would be for a period of 10 years. If the hon. Gentleman will make due allowance for the rapidity with which the figures have been calculated, they work out something as follows. I have to make this calculation on the assumption that the rate of investment in plant goes on fairly level and that the pattern of investment on plant goes on fairly level, that the continuance of the same rate goes on whether the rate is 20 per cent. or 40 per cent., and that there is a continuance of the same sort of provision in the tax.
    If we take all these things and look at the 20 per cent. at the end of 10 years— I am leaving aside a longer period—it will cost no less than £425 million, and that despite the fact that there is a drawback coming in because the initial allowance is in the nature of an advance. If we take the 40 per cent. suggested in the Amendment, the figure would be some £850 million at the end of 10 years.
    Mr. Crosland: In view of these figures, I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman would care to agree that this represents rather more than an interest-free loan?
    Mr. Butler: I am not going into the abstruse future, because after a certain period the cost evens down when we get

    803
    into the rather dimmer future; these are mathematical calculations which I think I would be unwise to give to the Committee, but I will, of course, give them in answer to questions. Nevertheless, that is a considerable burden, and hon. Members will therefore see that when my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary stated that the cost was considerable we were right to look ahead. As taxpayers, we have a certain anxiety that this device will be a considerable burden on future Budgets.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I take it that the right hon. Gentleman meant that the £425 million would be the total amount, so to speak, outstanding, and that it was not the annual figure or anything like that? I think it should be made clear for the benefit of industry and the public.
    Mr. Butler: I am only answering the special question, but I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for making it clear, as casual report would make it out to be more costly in a particular year than it is. I leave it at the right hon. Gentleman's intervention.
    If we look at it more simply from the point of view of future Budgets, I must remind the Committee that when I was making up my mind I had to look ahead, and I warned the Committee at the time of my Budget statement that we were taking on burdens for the future. Not only are we carrying this very large defence programme, and we certainly saw how expensive it must be from our most magnificent experience of yesterday in the review of the Fleet. I am sure we are all proud to bear the burden, but the effect of this burden must be clear to anybody who either shared the hospitality or saw the magnificent display yesterday.
    But we must remember that this expense is in triplicate. There are two other Services displaying the might of Britain at the present time, and as taxpayers we must bear that expense. At the same time, we have a social system second to none in the world, and, despite the observations made in a more evil mood by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, a large number of these services, such as health and education, have actually increased in cost.
    When we look at this—the need to discontinue the Excess Profits Levy in the
    804
    future, and the incidence of that will fall in two years hence—if we look at the tendency for costs to rise, and we know the only safeguard is a rise in the national income for which we are all going to work and help to produce, we must realise that an addition of £76 million in a full year by the Amendment proposed by hon. Members opposite is more than we can manage at the present time.
    The last argument to complete the picture and answer to the right hon. Gentleman is that of whether this falls within the Budget within what may be described as the purely internal Budget problem of revenue, or whether it can fairly lightly be dismissed intellectually as being something which really helps the economic balance of the country and which, although it does not tot up in the actual Budget figures, is of such value to the economy and industry that the figures do not matter—in fact, what about a deficit Budget and let us go nap on the initial allowances?
    Mr. Gaitskell: A smaller surplus.
    Mr. Butler: That, in itself, is not intellectually an impossible or ridiculous idea, but I want hon. Members to realise that, even if circumstances might arise when the state of the economy demanded less surplus, we have also to reflect that the Budget has a psychological effect and that if presented in such a way that it would shake our balance of payments position or confidence in sterling, even though it might be the most abstrusely Keynesian Budget in the world and might be welcomed by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South and the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) as being a fine intellectual effort, it may be wrong. In my opinion if I had overweighted the Budget further by adding that £76 million, I should have gone too far. Therefore, I have not sought to answer or traverse the arguments put forward, because a great deal of good sense has been talked. I am simply reposing my argument on the case that I could not with confidence take any more this year, and, therefore, I regretfully ask the Committee not to accept this Amendment.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to 'shall' in line 28, stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 234.

    Division No. 186.]

    AYES

    [6.40 p.m.

    Aitken, W. T.

    Godber, J. B.

    Mellor, Sir John

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Gower, H. R.

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Grimond, J.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Banks, Col. C.

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Barber, Anthony

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Baxter, A. B.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Nutting, Anthony

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Odey, G. W.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Orr-Ewing Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Bennett, William (Woodside)

    Heath, Edward

    Osborne, C.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Partridge, E.

    Birch, Nigel

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Bishop, F. P.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Black, C. W.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Bossom, Sir A. C.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Bowen, E. R.

    Hollis, M. C.

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Pitman, I. J.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Holt, A. F.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hope, Lord John

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.Col. W. H.

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Horobin, I.. M.

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Redmayne, M.

    Browne, Jack (Govan)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Bullard, D. G.

    Hurd, A. R.

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

    Robertson, Sir David

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Campbell, Sir David

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Russell, R. S.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Channon, H.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

    Kaberry, D.

    Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Keeling, Sir Edward

    Scott, R. Donald

    Cole, Norman

    Kerr, H. W.

    Shepherd, William

    Colegate, W. A.

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

    Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

    Snadden, W. McN.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Speir, R. M.

    Crouch, R. F.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Stevens, G. P.

    Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Longden, Gilbert

    Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Digby, S. Wingfield

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Storey, S.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    McAddan, S. J.

    Summers, G. S.

    Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

    McCallum, Major D.

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Drayson, G. B.

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Duthie, W. S.

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Erroll, F. J.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Fell, A.

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn.Peter (Monmouth)

    Fisher, Nigel

    MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

    Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Tilney, John

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Turton, R. H.

    Fort, R.

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

    Marples, A. E.

    Vosper, D. F.

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Wade, D. W.

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

    Maude, Angus

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Gammans, L. D.

    Maudling, R.

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Medlicott, Brig. F.

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    806

    807

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Watkinson, H. A.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Wellwood, W.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

    Wills, G.

    Mr. Studholme and Mr. Oakshott.

    NOES

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Hall, Rt. Hon Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Adams, Richard

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Parker, J.

    Albu, A. H.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Paton, J.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crowe)

    Hannan, W.

    Pearson, A.

    Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

    Hargreaves, A.

    Peart, T. F.

    Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Popplewell, E.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Hastings, S.

    Porter, G.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Bartley, P.

    Healy, Cahir (Fermanagh)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Bence, C. R.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Hobson, C. R.

    Rankin, John

    Beswick, F.

    Holman, P.

    Reeves, J.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Blackburn, F.

    Hoy, J. H.

    Reid, William (Camlachie)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Rhodes, H.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Bowden, H. W.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Brockway, A. F.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Ross, William

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Royle, C.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Burke, W. A.

    Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

    Short, E. W.

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Callaghan, L. J.

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Carmichael, J.

    Keenan, W.

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Champion, A. J.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Slater, Mrs. (Stoke, N.)

    Chapman, W. D.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Kinley, J.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Clunie, J.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Coldrick, W.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Snow, J. W.

    Collick, P. H.

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Steele, T.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Logan, D. G.

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    MacColl, J. E.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Daines, P.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    McGovern, J.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    McInnes, J.

    Swingler, S. T.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    McLeavy, F.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Deer, G.

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Delargy, H. J.

    McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Dodds, N. N.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Thornton, E.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Timmons, J.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Tomney, F.

    Edelman, M.

    Manuel, A. C.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Edwards, John (Brighouse)

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Mason, Roy

    Viant, S. P.

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Weitzman, D.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    Monslow, W.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Moody, A. S.

    West, D. G.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Finch, H. J.

    Morley, R.

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Follick, M.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Foot, M. M.

    Mort, D. L.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Forman, J. C.

    Moyle, A.

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Nally, W.

    Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Glanville, James

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Gooch, E. G.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Orbach, M.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Oswald, T.

    Yates, V. F.

    Grey, C. F.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hale, Leslie

    Pannell, Charles

    Mr. Arthur Allen and Mr. Wallace.

    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. G. Thomas): Before I call the next Amendment, in page 9, line 28, in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) and his hon. Friends, I would say that I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we discussed with that Amendment the Amendment in line 37 in the name of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bodmin (Mr. D. Marshall), the Amendment in the same line in the name of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) and the further Amendment in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds. South proposing a subsection (3).
    Mr. Gaitskell: That is exactly what Sir Charles suggested to us earlier.
    Mr. Albu: I beg to move, in page 9. line 28, after "applies," to insert:
    "(not being expenditure certified by the Treasury under the next following subsection)."
    I shall also discuss the other Amendments which you mentioned, Mr. Thomas. The purpose of this series of Amendments is to carry out the proposal made in the Millard Tucker Report to provide for a discriminatory system of initial allowances and to enable the Treasury, by statutory order, to issue certificates covering certain industries and also certain types of equipment.
    In the rather interesting debate which we have just had on the general question of the level of initial allowances over all, there seemed to be a considerable opinion on the other side of the Committee that this was a wasteful way of making concessions and that the concessions would be better made if they were made in particular directions. In fact, I invited the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) to join with us and to support us because he said in his speech when he attacked our last Amendment that he was in favour of a discriminatory system.
    The debates which we have had on the Bill so far, and particularly that on Purchase Tax, have disclosed what everybody knows—the great difference of opinion that there is between the two sides of the Committee on whether it is possible or not to have any degree of planning of the economic activities of the country. With the exception of my hon. Friend the Member for Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever), who intervened in the discussion on Purchase Tax, most of us on this side of the
    810
    Committee believe that it is possible to make an estimate of economic developments and to take some precautions against the effect of future changes.
    After the Chancellor's speech, there is no doubt whatsoever that the other side of the Committee have very grave doubts as to whether anything can be done at all. The argument that one must not construct one's Budget from the point of view of the economy of the country, of how it will work and what effect it will have on different parts of the economy, but that it should have a pretty picture effect and be rather attractive to the backwoodsmen of other parts of the world, is really quite fantastic. Surely, the first thing that a Chancellor has to do, in constructing his Budget, is to see that it suits the economic circumstances of the time.
    There is no doubt that a discriminatory use of allowances can be one method of making a small contribution towards the planning of our economy, not in a very short term, because that is obvious from the very nature of the concession and the time that it takes to operate, but in the rather longer term. I am rather inclined to the view that it is a better system, perhaps, than the raising of the allowances as a whole.
    Now that the Government have refused our Amendment to raise them as a whole, I hope they realise that there is a lot of sense in raising them in certain cases. We have an extraordinary display of complacency on the part of the Chancellor. Perhaps it hides an anxiety which he does not wish to disclose, but it gives the impression that he believes that he has somehow, in a miraculous way, overcome the economic changes in the world, and particularly in this country, over the last 50 or 60 years.
    The fact is that, quite apart from the very serious danger arising from American recession which faces us in the not distant future, we are already on the return biennial swing from low stocks and high reserves to high stocks and low reserves, the rate at which our gold and dollar reserves are rising is decreasing and I imagine that it will not be long before we are losing gold and dollars. We are getting into the situation in which we were previously.
    Surely we are all agreed that this is a long-term problem for which long-term solutions are 'required. It requires very

    811
    drastic changes in the construction of our economy and very considerable investments in certain sections of it. Everybody agrees that we need increased investment to increase the productivity and efficiency of industry. But it is not only necessary to increase the overall productivity. It is necessary also to distinguish between industries and to have some order of priorities in one's mind in the field of investment. I do not believe that this can be left under the present circumstances to a free market.
    There is no doubt that the main investment encouragement at the present time should be to industries most capable of coping with changes which have taken place and are taking place in world trade, with the permanent change in Britain's terms of trade, the growing industrialisation of other countries, even countries within the Commonwealth and the persistent world shortage of dollars, of which there is no solution in sight.
    We have therefore two main objects in a discriminatory policy. One is to encourage the expansion of those industries which are most likely to be able to maintain or expand their exports; and the nature of those industries is changing continuously. We all know that the proportion of textiles and simple consumer goods has fallen and the proportion of metal goods, engineering products, and particularly the more complicated products, is rising. I think that most of us understand that if we are to keep in world markets at all we should sell the sort of goods which other countries have not yet learned to make—industries with a high degree of skill and in which they have not yet a high degree of investment. As the years go on, other countries will make more and more of the simpler goods and we shall have to keep ahead.
    The other object of a discriminatory policy must be to develop methods of saving imports, particularly dollar imparts, by improving methods of use, by import substitution and by material conservation. The present situation in our industries is depressing. On the long-term view, our main exports, the ones which qualify under headings which I have just been describing, are what generally come under the heading of engineering, metal goods and perhaps
    812
    chemicals. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) pointed out, it is these industries, which have been losing labour in recent months at the expense of the older consumer goods industries, which cannot hope to maintain their export position in the world.
    7.0 p.m.
    During 1951 the number of workers in the engineering industries went up by 120,000. In 1952 the number was static and this year it has been falling. In fact, it went down by 19,000 at the end of April. It is true that some important sections of the engineering industry are growing, but they are not growing fast enough to counteract the fall in the others. The main falls have been, unlike in other industries, in the consumer goods side of the engineering industry, and in the older forms of engineering such as textile machinery and rolling stock, although there has been a slight rise in rolling stock since.
    The rise in labour and, therefore, of output has been mostly, as one would expect, in the newer high conversion ratio industries; that is, in industries in which the proportion of raw material is small and the proportion of brain power and skill is high, that is to say, in aircraft, telecommunication equipment and electrical machinery. This is to be expected, and we must give every possible encouragement to increased production in this group of industries. This is the trend and we are not keeping up fast enough with the trend.
    A good example of the type of industry to which such a discriminatory increased initial allowance might be given, and an industry needing a very drastic spur, is the machine tool industry. This was a bad industry before the war in this country. We were miles down and well below the Americans, Germans and Swiss. It has certainly made great improvements during the war and it is very much better now. But anybody who has read the Seventh Report of the Select Committee on Estimates on Rearmament must have observed, in paragraph 30, what an extraordinary dependence there is in this highly industrialised country on imports of machine tools in times of rapid industrial investment.
    For the defence programme, where we had quickly to increase our stock of

    813
    machine tools, we had to spend £104 million abroad; £70 million of that was spent either because the types were not procurable in this country or there was insufficient production at home. The balance could have been obtained only by diverting machine tools from export markets or, alternatively, from home investment. The latter quantity, which could have been obtained only by being diverted from export markets or from home investment, cost the country £34 million in foreign currency, but would only have cost £19 million if manufactured in this country. It appears, therefore, that our machine tools are certainly quite competitive but that production is quite inadequate. Some of the reasons for this were given in the recent Report of the British Productivity Team to which, I have no doubt, it would be out of order for me to refer now.
    A larger initial allowance for manufacturing industry would have increased the demand for machine tools, and it is certainly desirable to increase the investment in the machine tool industry, which will have to play a very important part in any programme of industrial expansion or industrial change in reconstruction which we carry out in the next few years. But then, of course, the industry is exactly that type of industry which could provide a very valuable form of export. I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, who I am glad to see here, would not disagree.
    More controversial, I suppose, is the aim of the encouragement of investment for the saving of imports. Last year and this year a number of Amendments have appeared on the Order Paper dealing with raw material production overseas and particularly in the sterling area, but in my view we also need to give encouragement to methods of reducing the overall import content of our manufactures. Many of the import substitutes, of course, are very expensive in investment, particularly the products of the chemical industry. New ideas, new processes and new materials are always being produced. Here, I think, is another field in which it would certainly be worth while to provide this sort of incentive of a discriminatory initial allowance higher than the standard rate of initial allowance.
    814
    A number of Amendments have been put on the Order Paper dealing with particular industries or types of plant, and I understand that these are not to be called, but I think it is in order to deal with some of them and I have no doubt that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee will all have their claims. One Amendment which I had hoped to move dealt with mechanical handling equipment, that is to say, cranes, conveyors, fork lift trucks, and so on, which are used in industry. There is general agreement that great savings can be made in industry in handling materials, and in British industry in particular.
    Nearly every one of the productivity reports refer to this, and it is true that not all of these methods require expensive equipment. Some of them require quite simple equipment or simple reorganisation of the plant or factory. Where new equipment has to be purchased it is frequently not very expensive. The Report of the Materials Handling Team of the Anglo-American Committee on Productivity estimated that the cost of handling materials varies in different industries and even from factory to factory in a particular industry from 15 per cent. to 85 per cent. of total manufacturing cost, and a small expenditure on materials handling equipment frequently produces a very large return, far larger probably than an equal investment in other types of plant. Practically all the known types of mechanical handling equipment are available in this country.
    There are also secondary effects. Mr. Dimmock, who was the Secretary of the Materials Handling Team, has said:
    "It has been the experience of many firms that the introduction of improved handling has led to increases in machine or process utilisation and, at one and the same time, this has been achieved by a substantial reduction of investment in materials and work in progress."
    It is also true that mechanical handling frequently leads to an increase in safety, which is a good thing in itself, but it also leads to an increase in productivity. A friend of mine, who was a professor of history at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, once told me that what really impressed him about the engineering students who came to him was this sense of flow which they had; that is to say. they did not think of their job as

    815
    just producing the goods and leaving them there, but right from the beginning of their student days they thought of the material coming in at one end of the factory and they never stopped thinking about it until it was out the other end. Certainly, the general view of the productivity team has been that this is one of the great differences between American and British industry.
    Many of the reports of the different industries have a complete section entirely on this subject. For instance, the report on steel founding says, among its recommendations:
    "Installation of machinery can be effected in many foundries to give quick improvement in productivity. AH American foundries were seen to have good methods of handling materials. Quick acting cranes, fork lifting trucks and wheeled skids for handling moulding boxes into the casting position are three important features."
    The report of the heavy chemicals industry said:
    "By a concentration on improvements in materials handling techniques we envisage a 50 per cent. to 100 per cent. increase in labour productivity in those parts of a chemical factory where materials handling is a major problem."
    The report on internal combustion engines said:
    "…much more attention should be paid to the handling of components at all stages of manufacture in British industry to raise productivity."
    The report of the machine tools industry said—in a special section devoted to the subject:
    "No new mechanical aids for handling were seen; all types used in U.S. are available in U.K.—but they are not so widely used."
    Finally, the furniture industry—in which I have a purely constituency interest—had this to say:
    "Handling methods in the normal American factory give it an important advantage in productivity over its British counterpart."
    Hon. Members will have observed that the recommendations refer not only to mass production industries. People who do not know anything about production engineering—like the Civil Lord of the Admiralty—think that these methods can be applied only to mass production industries and not to the heavier industries, particularly the heavy engineering industries. It may interest hon. Members to know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) makes a fork-lifting
    816
    truck which lifts eight tons. I imagine that that is not used in a light engineering factory, but probably in a steel works or steel constructional works.
    I know how difficult it is to persuade people in industry to spend a few hundred pounds on trucks or simple equipment for moving goods around while they are spending thousands of pounds on tooling or other plant. This is a relic of the days when there was a great store of unskilled labourers and very low wages. Here is an excellent case for raising the initial allowance from 20 per cent. to 40 per cent. At a very small cost we might get a valuable increase in productivity in our industries. It has been said that good management equals good manners plus good housekeeping. Certainly, good housekeeping in industry means keeping goods off the floor, keeping down work in progress and making the work as straightforward and easy as possible.
    I have dealt with this subject at length, partly because it is important and partly because it is an example of a type of equipment for which this allowance might be made. The Amendment covers both industries and types of equipment, and the Schedule has tried to define the duties of the Treasury in much the same way as did the instructions in the last letter sent by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Capital Issues Committee. The Schedule says:
    "The Treasury may from time to time certify that certain expenditure is in the national interest being expenditure on projects which in the opinion of the Treasury are essentially and positively related to export, import savings or the relief of basic deficiencies, or which in the opinion of the Treasury contribute definitely to the general health of the economy by technical development or the better use of resources."—
    and again:
    "Expenditure certified as aforesaid shall be either any expenditure by a designated industry or any expenditure on a designated type of machinery or plant. For the purpose of this paragraph the Treasury may from time to time define and designate an industry or a type of machinery or plant and publish lists of industries and of types of machinery or plant so defined and designated."
    Both methods could be used. I know it will be said—as it was before—that there are administrative difficulties. We all know that the Inland Revenue do not like having to make discriminations of this sort, but whatever the difficulties I

    817
    am convinced that they could be overcome. I believe discriminations are very necessary at the present time and in this case there would be a very much smaller sacrifice in revenue than the figures given us by the Chancellor in regard to the previous Amendment.
    If he would accept this Amendment he could encourage a very substantial improvement in productivity and also make a real contribution towards that long-term change in the structure of British industry which has to come sooner or later. I hope that his seeming complacency does not mean that he does not understand the problem. He will have to deal with it sooner or later and we might as well make a start now. The effect will not be felt for two or three years. It is not a short-term measure, but a measure to deal with long-term changes that we want. We should not attempt to deal with these purely biennial swings.
    7.15 p.m.
    Mr. Nabarro: The comments of the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) might have had a good deal more validity if he had attempted to relate his mechanical handling problems to the period for wear and tear purposes, over which such equipment is normally depreciated by the Inland Revenue. Our debate on the previous Amendment singularly omitted any reference to that important consideration of wear and tear. In my view the whole principle of initial allowances rests upon a variation in the standard rates, and terms of application, of existing wear and tear allowances. In effect, it concentrates into the year in which the expenditure is incurred a slightly greater amount, in terms of percentage and therefore money, of the initial cost of the asset, than would otherwise have been the case.
    In the Second Reading debate on this Bill, I said that I was generally in favour of discrimination in the application of initial allowances, but I did not mean the extreme sort of discrimination inferred by the Amendment which has just been moved by the hon. Member for Edmonton. There is a case for discrimination where existing wear and tear allowances are manifestly inadequate, but there is no case for discrimination where they are manifestly adequate. In the Second Reading debate I gave what I
    818
    believed was a very valid example—that of motor vehicles. They already attract a wear and tear allowance which is at the rate of 25 per cent. per annum on the reducing balance. A motor vehicle purchased by an industrial firm can thus generally be written off in a period of five years.
    When Sir Stafford Cripps brought in his initial allowance at the rate of 40 per cent.—or double the previous rate —and added that 40 per cent. to the existing wear and tear allowance for a motor vehicle owned within industry, it meant that more than 60 per cent. of the initial cost of the asset could be written off in the year in which the expenditure was incurred. That was ridiculous. All that did was to encourage extravagance in the purchase of vehicles by industry, whether commercial or private.
    Mr. Douglas Jay: I would point out to the hon. Member that I have an Amendment on the Order Paper which seeks to exclude motor vehicles from the operation of the initial allowance for the very reasons he has given. I confidently hope that we shall have his support for that Amendment.
    Mr. Nabarro: I am not making these observations in any party political spirit. I am taking the question of motor vehicles as an extreme case because it demonstrates my point so clearly. We should not apply a larger rate of initial allowance to any particular type of industrial equipment to which an adequate wear and tear allowance is already applicable.
    If we followed the proposals made by the hon. Member for Edmonton and, by means of a Treasury certificate, conceded a discriminatory rate of initial allowance in favour of certain classes of equipment, we should create the type of Dutch-auction which we have had, year by year, on each successive Finance Bill in connection with Purchase Tax. We should have hon. Ladies opposite appearing in three-quarter-length coats, endeavouring to demonstrate anomalies in the application of the tax, and we should have all sorts of pleas made on behalf of all sorts of industries for special treatment on the grounds of national or local value. Surely that is a wrong

    819
    principle. We do not want to be involved in controversies of that kind and of a purely sectional type. What I mean by discrimination——
    Mr. Albu: Then why does the hon. Gentleman put his name to Amendments of that type?
    Mr. Nabarro: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to continue, I will tell him the type of discrimination I referred to on Second Reading and the type which is covered by the Amendment in line 37, which, had it been called separately, I would have moved. Discrimination, I repeat, in the application of initial allowances, should apply only when the existing rate of wear and tear is inadequate and where it is manifestly in the national interest to encourage production of that class of equipment. There is no clearer case of the desirability of applying those principles than in the case of ships.
    Throughout the debate on Finance Bills in the last few years we have had, almost annually, discussions on shipping. In 1944, when Sir John Anderson, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced initial allowances, he said,
    "The allowance … will cover all businesses, and will be of particular value to shipping, where it will materially assist the policy of keeping our imcomparable Mercantile Marine thoroughly up to date."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th April, 1944; Vol. 399, c. 674.]
    What Sir John Anderson no doubt meant by the "particular value to shipping" was the fact that the wear and tear allowances for shipping were based generally on a 20 years' lease of life. That is too long a period, generally speaking, for the writing off or depreciation of the normal type of ship, although there are exceptional cases. He meant, therefore, that by the application of the initial allowances the unfair rate of wear and tear allowance would be mitigated.
    When the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) suspended initial allowances in 1951, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury again made a special reference to shipping. He said:
    "I think the Committee will appreciate that the fact that the Government have tabled the Amendment"—
    the Amendment to provide certain relief for the building of ships—
    "is an indication that we recognise shipping to be an exceptional case. The word
    820
    'unique' has been used, and I should be prepared to accept that as a fair description of the shipping industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th June, 1951; Vol. 488, c. 1480.]
    There is little doubt that all parties in the House and hon. Members in all parts of the Committee have always subscribed to the overwhelming importance of shipping and the construction of ships to our national economy. That, coupled with the fact that the existing rate of wear and tear allowance allowed by the Inland Revenue is manifestly inadequate, makes ships a deserving subject for the application of a discriminatory rate of initial allowance, and the purpose of my Amendment—and I will not go into the technicalities unless I am challenged to do so —is to increase the initial allowance from 20 per cent. to 40 per cent.
    A contributory factor in the problems which confront shipbuilders today is the very large rate of increase which has taken place in constructional costs. I hope I may say without fear of contradiction that there has been no comparable increase in the cost of production in any manufactured article in post-war years. For instance, in 1945 the cost per ton of constructing a 9,500 ton dead weight motor ship was £28. By 1949 the cost per ton had risen by 50 per cent. to £42. That was the year in which Sir Stafford Cripps, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, doubled the rate of initial allowances with an eye on shipbuilding costs.
    Between 1949 and 1952 a further increase of 55 per cent. took place in the cost of shipping construction. In the case of a 9,500 ton dead weight motor ship it rose from £42 in 1949 to £65 per ton in 1952. It may therefore be argued quite fairly that if Sir Stafford Cripps, in 1949, had regard to the position of shipping, when doubling the rate of initial allowances, we should similarly have special regard to the position of shipping today in view of the further 55 per cent. increase, or more, in the cost of shipping construction since 1949.
    In addition to the question of the very considerable increase in ship construction cost, there is a point of special interest to the Treasury in the earning capacity of our Mercantile Marine. Figures can be only approximate, but they nevertheless have a striking value in a debate of this kind. In 1947 the net earning capacity of the Mercantile Marine was

    821
    discovered, after inquiry by the industry, to be no less than £60 million. In 1948, as a result of the rebuilding of ships which had been used for war purposes, the earning capacity had increased to £100 million. In 1950 it had further increased—I speak of the net earning capacity of the Mercantile Marine—to £150 million. According to the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, at the annual general meeting of the Mercantile Marine Service Association in Liverpool on 1st May this year, the earnings of the Mercantile Marine in the calendar year 1952 might have been expected to rise to the quite stupendous figure of £225 million—in other words, 3¾ times as much as in 1947.
    Those are invisible exports, and they are exports of the most valuable kind to our national economy. They compare very much more than favourably with our principal visible exports—for instance, in 1952 vehicles at £479 million, including locomotives, ships and aircraft, and machinery at £422 million in that calendar year. That is the second reason, therefore—the very large earnings of the Mercantile Marine—for considering giving new shipping construction some form of discriminatory fiscal and financial treatment.
    Finally, I want to say a word about the age of the British Mercantile Marine, and in view of the overriding importance of the competitive power of the British Mercantile Marine being maintained at the highest possible level during the next few years. In the United Kingdom we have only 21 per cent. of our Mercantile Marine less than five years old—slightly over one-fifth. Norway has 41·6 per cent. of her Mercantile Marine less than five years old, Japan has 38 per cent. and France 31·3 per cent. less than five years old.
    The United Kingdom therefore lies fourth in the great shipping powers of the world in the age of her Mercantile Marine and the percentage of her Mercantile Marine vessels less than five years old. I am not suggesting that we are anywhere near as badly off as a small country like Panama which owns a disproportionately large percentge of world shipping, but in terms of relative age it is worth observing that 14·4 per cent. of the United Kingdom Mercantile Marine is more than 25 years
    822
    old, whereas of the United States merchant fleet only 2·4 per cent. is more than 25 years old.
    Mr. Harold Wilson: Those are very important figures. Would the hon. Gentleman state, for the benefit of the Committee, whether those figures include tankers or are for cargo ships only?
    Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. They include tankers and exclude ships of less than 100 tons. To complete these three statistics, Norway has 10·3 per cent. of her ships over 25 years old.
    7.30 p.m.
    The tendency with the British Mercantile Marine is in the wrong direction, in my view. We have a disproportionately low total of ships which are less than five years old and a disproportionately high percentage of ships that are more than 25 years old. In consideration of the fact that our Mercantile Marine earned, in 1952, no less than £225 million, I believe the statistics I have given present to my right hon. Friend a case of quite supreme importance for taking some form of discriminatory action to help the shipping industry.
    That need not cost a very great deal or money. Whatever it costs I would offset by deliberately excluding classes of equipment which it is not in the national interest to subject to an initial allowance. I would exclude motor vehicles in industry and private cars. I go farther than that. I would exclude industrial buildings from the 10 per cent. allowance. Why? In accordance with my principles, which I have endeavoured to enunciate tonight, I would do so because Lord Waverley gave them a 2 per cent. wear and tear allowance per annum, over an estimated life of 50 years, in his 1945 Finance Act, and 2 per cent. per annum is quite enough for industrial buildings, in my view.
    That is broadly my case for pleading for discrimination. It is my basis for pleading for special relief for the shipping industry and our incomparable Mercantile Marine. I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will be able to have special regard to the somewhat specialised, though nevertheless important matters, I have endeavoured to demonstrate.
    Mr. F. Beswick: The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), as he proceeded, seemed to argue himself around to the precise position that has been taken up on this side of the Committee. He appeared to be in favour of discrimination, provided it was in favour of items with which he agreed. What he seemed to say, towards the end of his speech, was that he had the same kind of items in mind that we have on this side of the Committee.
    There was on the Order Paper another Amendment in my name and the names of some of my hon. Friends, in page 9, line 37, at the end, to insert:
    (3) The last preceding subsection shall not apply to expenditure for the provision (by replacement or otherwise) of machinery or plant being equipment required for the conversion of shops to adapt such shops for self-service distribution.
    It fitted into this discriminatory pattern. It sought, in a rather humble way, to help to achieve the same good objective as my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) set out, namely, to reduce costs, to increase productivity, to help towards a better deployment of manpower, and generally to increase national efficiency and economic independence.
    During the week-end I asked a Dominions visitor for his impressions of this country. He was very kind and courteous and gave a number of favourable impressions, but he did say, finally, that one thing that struck him was the number of men, as he put it, who were hanging around in liveries of one kind and another and the number of men we seemed to have distributing goods behind our counters. I believe that statistics would probably support the general impression that our Commonwealth visitor obtained.
    The Amendment which I had hoped to move suggested that there should be discrimination in favour of conversion to self-service shops, and I hope that the Chancellor will give his mind to this because I do think that the conversion of shops to self-service, partly or wholly, can do a good deal towards achieving higher efficiency and productivity.
    There are some, I know, who still maintain that the case for self-service is not yet fully proven, but I do not think we
    824
    can afford to ignore the experience in the United States of America or the limited experience already obtained in this country. No one who has studied the distribution of food, especially in the United States, can fail to be impressed by their self-service system, whether in the so-called superstores or in the smaller shops.
    According to the Federal Trade Commission gross retail profit margins in the United States have been brought down from about 23 per cent. to 25 per cent. in 1929 to 14 per cent. to 16 per cent. In 1949. and I read in the magazine "Fortune" that the supermarkets have increased dollar sales per employee by 50 per cent. in the last decade. That means to say one worker is now handling 50 per cent. more goods now than he was doing a decade ago.
    Certainly, the introduction of self-service shops does seem to have brought great advantage to those firms who have taken the initiative in this matter. In 1950, self-service and semi-self-service shops, which comprised just over 53 per cent. of the total in the United States, were doing 85 per cent. of the entire grocery and retail trade. According to some propaganda material it had been possible for this type of shop to reduce prices in some cases by 5 per cent. to 10 per cent.
    Experience in this country has been to a large extent gathered by the Cooperative movement. They have pioneered in this matter as in others. About 1,000 self-service shops are now operated by Co-operative societies in this country. While prices have been rising so seriously the self-service system has shown significantly good results. I do not want to weary the Committee with figures, but one or two will be of interest. Let us take the case of one branch shop in the London area with sales of £48,000 a year before conversion. In the first year after conversion to the self-service system the sales were £62,000 in the same space and with slightly fewer employees. Wage costs in the same branch were reduced from 1s. 6½d. a £ sale to 1s, 3¾d. in the first year, and there was a further drop to 1s. 2¾d. in the second year.
    Portsmouth, which is very much in the minds of a number of us today, has a very progressive record in this as in other matters. They have done a good deal of conversion to this self-service idea.

    825
    In 1947, the weekly sales at a certain shop were £541 but have since risen to £1,490 per week, with wage costs falling from 1s. 8¾d. in the £ to 1s. 0¾d. in the £ and with a definite fall in other expenses at the same time. Here, obviously, we have a chance of reducing the wage costs, which is, of course, the only sane way of making possible an increase of wage rates.
    I have not so far referred to the report on retailing of the team which went to the United States. I gather the impression that the more these twentieth century teams are quoted the less their effect is, but it may be pointed out that the team did say, in their report, that while in the United States they have three times our population and each member of the population was dealing with a larger volume of food, nevertheless, there are in that country only just over twice as many retail food workers. So here we have economy and a greater efficiency in the retail food trade.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton made some very wise remarks about the necessity for the more efficient handling of articles. It may be worth pointing out a figure reached by a Swedish expert in these matters. He said that a housewife buying for a family of four handled, in the course of a year, on the average, 4,300 1b. That is to say, in the course of one year, nearly two tons of foodstuffs and general groceries have to be shifted for a family of four, so clearly, if we can devise a better and more efficient method of handling in this trade we are doing something to increase the productivity of our nation.
    The productivity team to which I have referred recommended in terms that there should be conversion to self-service when
    "national economic considerations become more favourable."
    As the touchstone for the improvement of economic conditions in these matters seems to be whether we can reduce the tax on mink coats, according to the new economic expert that we have in the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever), applying that test national economic considerations are now favourable, and I should have thought that the Chancellor would do well to heed the
    826
    report of this productivity team, who say:
    "As conversion results in an economy of manpower, advantages to customers and better conditions to staffs, we feel bound to recommend that every encouragement be given to those bold enough to experiment with self-service or semi-self-service.…"
    They go on to ask for an adequate depreciation allowance.
    I shall not argue now whether an initial allowance of even, say, 40 per cent. will make all the difference between conversion or not, but it might just tip the balance of consideration in favour; and I go as far as saying that it would mean, in other cases, that people would give more earnest consideration to the possibility of conversion. I do not claim that Britain can win through only if we have a self-service system in the food retailing business, but I do think that in the years that lie ahead we cannot afford to neglect any possibility of increasing the efficiency of our national economy, and I believe that this is one method by which we can do something towards increasing that efficiency. I therefore hope that the Chancellor will pay attention to the claims of this type of investment when considering initial allowances.
    Mr. Summers: Unfortunately, I had to leave the Chamber soon after the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) started to move his Amendment, but I was able to return before he finished. As I understand his reference to my earlier remarks, he regarded me as an ally in the principle of discrimination, having regard to what I said on an earlier Amendment. I can only think that he must have misunderstood what I had in mind. What I said was that I was nervous of a proposal to increase initial allowances to 40 per cent. all round, because to do so appeared likely to prejudice those sectors of industry where it seemed to be the case of the strongest surviving. That was the extent to which I was willing to consider discrimination more readily than I particularly liked.
    In this discussion we have had another instance of what we had on an earlier Amendment, namely, a tendency grossly to exaggerate the effects likely to follow from any particular figure established for initial allowances. We have heard expressions read from different productivity reports, of how labour-saving devices have

    827
    helped, and so on, the implication being that if only sufficiently greater percentages were given in these industries drastic results would follow from the treatment accorded to them. Indeed, the hon. Member for Edmonton talked about it being high time the Chancellor set about changing the structure of industry; that he must take a long-term view.
    Again, I think hon. Members opposite are dangerously exaggerating the influences that may follow from changes of this kind, because there are many other factors very relevant to the consideration of whether money should be spent in a particular direction.
    7.45 p.m.
    Mr. Albu: The hon. Gentleman will agree that we must keep within the rules of order.
    Mr. Summers: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by that. I propose to take the rules of order from the Chair.
    Mr. Albu: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands me. I only meant that I could deal only with the subject-matter of the Bill and the Amendment we were discussing. There are many other measures which might also be suggested.
    Mr. Summers: I quite understand what the hon. Gentleman had in mind, but there are so many other factors which influence those who make decisions about spending money which are far more important than the percentage depreciation allowance.
    I think hon. Gentlemen opposite have somewhat exaggerated that aspect. In turning down an earlier Amendment the Chancellor said that in early years the cost of initial allowances was a factor to which he must pay considerable attention, and he gave the reasons, of which this was one, which forced him to pay great attention to them. I can only hope that he will remember that there are one or two sectors of industry where, if he cannot go all the way with all industry, he might find it possible to go beyond the 20 per cent. established in the Bill. I have in mind the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster, who alluded in such cogent terms to shipping and shipbuilding.
    There are one or two considerations on that subject which seem to distinguish
    828
    shipping from other sectors of industry, thereby making it possible, I would hope, for the Chancellor to make a concession, limited in character and so limited in cost, in favour of that industry. Reference has been made in this discussion to plant and machinery which in the ordinary course of events is, as it were, the sort of framework within which the operations of an industry take place. In the shipping industry ships are not part of the machinery, but the whole works. A company wishing to acquire a new ship cannot build piecemeal in the terms of other industries; it has to acquire entirely new plant, capital plant which in this instance is the very essence of the money-making venture. It follows from that, unlike other aspects of British industry, that the plant cannot be replaced piecemeal.
    There are types of industry in which certain plant can be renewed this year, other plant next year, and further plant the year after under a four- or five-year programme, during which period it may be possible to collect sufficient capital to do justice to the improvements the firm has in mind. But that is not possible or practicable with ships. There comes a time when they must be either replaced completely or carry on as they are, and I should have thought that that in itself was a very cogent reason for distinguishing between shipping and other sectors of industry. I do not propose to go into the figures again; reference has already been made to the very much greater increases in the price of shipping tonnage than in the price of other things since the war, and since special consideration was given to shipping in an earlier Budget on the grounds of increases in price I should have thought the case was amply made out now for those same reasons.
    The only other point I wish to allude to in this connection is that it is fairly common knowledge that most shipyards are, at any rate theoretically, full up for a number of years ahead, and it would seem to be a plausible argument to advance: What is the good of making concessions in favour of shipping if the order books in the yards are already so full that very little advantage can be taken of the concessions when granted? For a moment I want to deal with that, because, although in theory the order

    829
    books are full for some time to come, there might still arise the circumstances which make it necessary for those who place the orders to modify their plans. Moreover, in every industry—it applies just as much in shipbuilding, I am quite sure—it is always possible to fit something in after the theoretical deployment of the future work has been established on paper.
    This particularly applies in the case of smaller ships, where help in this particular form may be of greater benefit than for the larger shipping companies. I hope that, however the Chancellor may look at this matter, particularly, in reference to shipping, he will not regard the tolerably full order book for some time ahead as a reason for withholding a concession which will be of great value in the shipping world in particular, and which, in my judgment, could reasonably be treated differently in this regard from the whole field of industry.
    Finally, I want to dissociate myself from the general propositions which lie behind the Amendment with which we are now dealing. I think that it would be disastrous if there grew up what has been described as a Dutch auction between various small sectors of capital investment for special treatment. Also, it might be extremely difficult, if not impossible, even though it was thought wise, to find words which would enable the policy now advocated to be put into practice. I should have thought that the very fact that there was only a limited effect to be derived from this system would of itself preclude such an elaborate device as foreshadowed—a kind of economic weapon which is available to the Chancellor year by year.
    It is because the influence of this system is exaggerated that I feel that it has come to be regarded by hon. Members opposite as a sort of economic weapon at the disposal of the Chancellor. I think that is not practicable and not desirable. I believe that where capital investment has special features, there are grounds for saying that some greater help than might otherwise be given to industry generally should be given, and I hope that if the Chancellor has any help to give he will give it to shipping.
    Mr. Douglas Marshall: I want to add a few words to what my hon. Friends have been saying about
    830
    shipping. I would ask the Economic Secretary to look at it in this general light which I want to put to him. In his Budget he has, quite rightly, made an allowance for the so-called extractive industries in the national interest, and no one approves of that more than I do. When he is dealing with his Budget as a whole, he must look at it, presumably, in two ways. There are certain sums which he has to expend on defence and the rest, and, at the same time, he has to consider how to collect the necessary revenue and how we as a country can add to our profitability from earnings abroad.
    If he looks at it in that way, I cannot but feel that he will find it hard to disagree with the argument that one of the chief earnings of this country is the invisible exports derived from shipping. If he looks at it from the point of view of defence—and I feel that he must go all the way with me in this matter—the whole security of our country is not only dependent during war upon what the Merchant Navy can carry, but the whole cost of defending that line has a direct relationship to the age of the ships which are in service at sea.
    Therefore, anything which gives the incentive to produce vessels which are up to date, which are new, and which can, at the same time, retain the capacity of the skill of our building yards is, in fact, accomplishing what the Treasury and the Chancellor want to accomplish, which is to find greater earnability in this country and also lessen the cost of defence.
    If we are to find, in the future, that we have to protect slow, old vessels in order to bring the necessary food and materials to this country, then the cost of making provision to protect them is that degree higher, and I trust that the Economic Secretary will consult his right hon. Friend again on this matter because these are matters of reason, they are matters of common sense and they are matters of commerce.
    I sincerely trust that he will not take the attitude, "Well, we have provided for this amount already and, therefore, we should not allow anything else to come in." I sincerely trust that he will pay attention to the arguments put forth with regard to the whole of our shipping in recognising the effect on the vessels

    831
    afloat, recognising the question of our shipbuilding capacity, recognising the free force of foreign competition which can definitely effect our invisible earnings and recognising that in the question of our ships and the carrying of goods in our ships we cannot only reckon the total amount of profitability to this country in the direct profits of the ship but have to consider the question of insurance and those other matters which immediately surround the question of our shipping.
    Therefore, as I said when I made a speech during the Budget debate this year, I consider that this matter should be reconsidered, and although I do not support the Amendment in its full global touch without any form of particularisation I believe that where the shipping question comes in it would not only be an additional profit to our country but an additional safeguard to the defence of the Realm.
    Colonel Sir Leonard Ropner: I want to relate my remarks to the Amendment in line 37 which, under the ruling of the Chair, is being discussed with the Amendment which has been moved. Standing alone, this Amendment, from the point of view of the shipping industry, is a very modest proposal. I certainly do not want to get myself involved in the question of what is the right description of initial allowances from the financial point of view. I think that, at the worst, from the point of view of the Chancellor, an initial allowance should be regarded as an interest-free loan, and, at the best, I suggest to the Economic Secretary that the granting of a 40 per cent. initial allowance for shipping would be one method of giving some help and a little encouragement to an industry which is of great value to the nation, which is undoubtedly faced with growing difficulties and which is placed in an unfair economic position vis-à-vis its foreign competitors.
    No hon. Member will dispute the value of an adequate Mercantile Marine in time of war. I am sure that lesson has been learned in two world wars, and I certainly hope that it has not been forgotten. But it is almost as of great importance in time of peace that this nation should ensure that we have a large and efficient Merchant Navy. As my hon.
    832
    Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. D. Marshall) has already reminded the Committee, the shipping industry is the largest single earner of foreign exchange of any industry in this country, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, regarding this great industry from that point of view, would not wish to see the proportion of British ships dwindle further and would agree that it would be folly to allow the number of British ships to become less.
    8.0 p.m.
    In matters of taxation, many industries are convinced, and a number assert, that they have special problems to face which merit exceptional concessions. It is for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his advisers to be arbiters in such matters, but it is equally the job of those who know the facts to present the case, and words of wisdom about the shipping industry have already fallen from a number of hon. Members this evening.
    I freely admit that one difficulty in presenting the case for any form of taxation relief for British shipping is the fact that since 1945 shipping has been reasonably prosperous. Indeed, there have been times when the industry has enjoyed very considerable prosperity since the termination of the war. But the higher the level of rates of freight and, therefore, the higher the profits, the greater is the disadvantage under which the British Mercantile Marine operates. That may seem a paradoxical statement and I wish to make one or two observations to explain it. It is a statement which is true because of two facts. One fact is that the shipping industry is, competitively, completely international, and the other is that the profits of the British Mercantile Marine are more heavily taxed than are those of the fleet of any other nation of the world.
    With regard to the completely international nature of the competition in shipping, I would remind the Committee that there is no home market for shipping. Speaking generally, a shipper does not care in the least what is the country of registration of the ship which he hires to carry goods between two ports. He wants a ship which is tight, staunch and strong. He wants it of a certain size and perhaps of a certain minimum speed. He wants a ship which is available for loading on a certain date. He also wishes

    833
    to obtain it at as low a rate of freight as he can get, and ships of all nations compete freely in the freight market.
    Very much the same thing is true of passengers. Normally, the passenger wants the best possible service at the cheapest possible rate, and very few passengers care what is the colour of the flag that flies from the stern of the vessel in which they sail. Perhaps I might say, in parenthesis, without transgressing the rules of order, that the Committee should know that there are growing difficulties for British shipping in what I have described as a free market. I refer to flag discrimination and trade reservations, two tendencies which are being followed to an increasing extent by foreign Governments.
    To return to my original point, the Committee should realise that no other industry requiring such a large capital outlay is open in anything like the same way to free international competition. The second fact is that ships flying foreign flags pay lower taxes and, in that respect, have an advantage over the British Mercantile Marine. I hope that the Committee will now understand and appreciate what I meant when I said that the higher the gross profits of world shipping the greater is the ultimate disadvantage to British shipping compared with its foreign competitors. If no profit is made on a voyage, ships of all nations are, more or less, in an equal position. If £1,000 profit can be made on a voyage and a British ship pays £750 in taxation out of the £1,000 whereas a foreign ship pays only £250, the foreign ship is £500 better off. If the profit on a voyage is 10 times that amount, the foreign ship is £5,000 better off than the British ship.
    These two facts are links in a vicious circle, for when a foreign competitor retains his profits and the British ship does not the foreign competitor is able to build new and efficient tonnage, and that in itself leads to higher profits by the foreigner. The British Mercantile Marine has already fallen from one-quarter of the world's tonnage to one-fifth, and, moreover, as has already been emphasised, is ageing. It is losing its competitive efficiency, and that process is accelerating.
    I warn the Government that if hard times come in the freight market it looks
    834
    very much as if it will be the inefficient ships of the British Mercantile Marine which will be laid up and not the efficient ships of the foreign competitors. Owing, in the first place, to the high cost of new tonnage, in the second place to the uncertainty of the freight market, and in the third place to the high rate of taxation, British owners are becoming increasingly reluctant to place orders.
    I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) has just resumed his seat. I am glad that he reads books on political economy, but I often wish he would spend a few days, weeks or months in a shipping office or the head office of a large industrial concern. I can assure him that shipowners—I can speak only for a very limited number of industries—are becoming increasingly reluctant to place orders on a "Heads you win, tails I lose" basis. If the future is to be that on the one hand, when there are high profits they are so highly taxed that there is nothing left, and, on the other hand, that when there are no profits, when new ships bear a high rate of depreciation, there are consequential net losses, then the average owner will feel that it is better not to order a ship at all. I fear that that is a very reasonable assessment of the present position about the burden of taxation.
    A high rate of initial allowance rests, to some extent, on the assumption that the rates of freight will remain at a reasonable level for a year or two. The acceptance of this Amendment, or an assurance from the Government that its principle will be accepted, will permit the initial allowance to be concentrated into the early part of the life of the ship when there is the greatest likelihood of the allowance being effectively set off against profits. The higher rate of initial allowance makes no difference at all in the total allowance over the whole life of the ship.
    The acceptance of the Amendment would, I must admit, do hardly anything to meet the difficulties created by the high level of taxation, but it would do something. Shipping lays at the feet of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the biggest gold and dollar egg of all industries. But the goose is getting old, and unless there is a process of rejuvenation

    835
    in the comparatively near future I can only repeat that, in my view, the goose will stop laying altogether.
    Mr. Arthur Holt: I have listened to what has been said with great attention, and I should like to say a few words on this Amendment. I am not in agreement with discriminatory initial allowances for what I consider are the illusionary purposes of planning, but where a case can be made for one industry to have a larger allowance than another because of wear and tear or because of another point which I will come to in a minute, I think the case needs the closest examination.
    When the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) started on this matter of shipping, he pointed out how the cost of shipping had increased and I jotted down some figures which I hope are correct. He said it rose from £28 a ton to £42 a ton, and in 1952 it was £65 a ton. From there he went on to explain how the earnings of the Mercantile Marine had reached the stupendous figure of three and a quarter times those of 1947. It seems a little odd that on that basis the Government should be asked to discriminate in favour of shipping, because any discrimination for shipping is discrimination against other industry and against the taxpayers.
    I should have thought that if the costs of shipbuilding are going up, then this is not the time for the Government to jump in and assist the shippers to pay those increased costs. Rather should there be an urge for everybody to try and push those costs down. On top of that, if shipping earnings are so high, then why further increase the allowance? When the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) spoke, he put what I considered to be quite a point, that a ship was not replaced bit by bit each year, but suddenly an owner was faced with complete replacement and had a considerable burden to undertake. That seems to me to be a much more pertinent point for a large initial allowance because it is in that year that the expense has to be met.
    8.15 p.m.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Sir L. Ropner) tried, I thought, to meet the point why, as the
    836
    shipping industry was very busy and making large profits, should we ask for this special allowance. He said that it had to compete in world markets, and that the shipping industries of other countries were in a more favourable position in regard to taxation. I think that that is the same kind of point as was brought up when there was consideration of an increase in the payment for judges. We are really sidetracking the point.
    What we have to do is to concentrate on getting taxation down, and, if a special allowance is given to the shipbuilding industry, then the cotton industry, the engineering industry and other industries will ask for exactly the same thing. They are competing in world markets, too, to a greater or lesser extent than the shipbuilding industry, and the burden of the whole thing is that all these industries should be required to retain more of their money. We are not getting rid of the problem when we offer one industry a larger initial allowance. I am not completely convinced on the matter, but I certainly think there is a point here. Before the Committee agree to any special allowance, it has to examine the whole position very closely.
    The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) referred to mechanical handling and also increased allowances for things like self-service in shops. There is no one more than I who would like to see more use of mechanical handling aids, but I think there is a great danger, when Parliament gives a special allowance for a mechanical aid of that type, of detracting from the real problem of British industry which, as the hon. Member for Edmonton quite rightly said, is the technique of flow.
    When the initial allowances were first brought in, I was still in industry, and I know there was an impetus given to buying mechanical handling machinery of one type or another, but in many cases the people did not make proper use of it because they had not studied the whole technique of flow, which I consider is very much behind in this country and probably could give a greater impetus to industry and greater efficiency than all the other points of individual productivity, about which people talk such a great deal.

    837
    I end on this note, that there are cases sometimes—shipping may be one of them —which should be examined extremely closely before we give a discriminatory allowance. We should realise that when we are giving a discriminatory allowance to one industry we are, in fact, giving that allowance from money which has been obtained from other industries which might themselves decide that they had just as great a claim.
    Mr. Maudling: In the course of the discussion on this Amendment there has been a good deal said about the shipping industry, and quite rightly; and I shall try in the course of my remarks to deal with the points that were raised.
    The Amendment which is before the Committee, and on which we shall be dividing if the Opposition wish to carry this matter to a Division, is a very broad Amendment introducing an entirely new taxation principle—discrimination within the categories of the initial allowances. Of course, there have always been discriminations within the initial allowances in the sense that there are discriminations between different types of business, between industrial building and appliances and between industrial and commercial building, and in those broad categories there have been varying rates; but there has not been discrimination within those categories, between specific types of plant and machinery, or between firms, and the Government consider that it is most important to maintain the principle in our legislation that the discrimination is based on definitions that can be clearly included in statutes and that any assets falling within those definitions are in a position to attract the initial allowance.
    If we went beyond that and discriminated between individual firms or industries within those categories, we should be introducing a range of difficulties, both of practice and principle, which could not be justified in present taxation circumstances.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is there not already some discrimination between certain kinds of mines?
    Mr. Maudling: I was coming to the point of mining. There has been an impression that new discrimination has been introduced in this Finance Bill by the 40 per cent. allowance for mining works. That is not new. What is new, however,
    838
    is the figure. There has always been a separate category for mining works, but the figure was 10 per cent. when that for plaint and machinery was 20 per cent. So there has been no breach of the principle which I have enunciated and to which the Government wish to adhere.
    The case for increasing the allowance for the category of mining works to 40 per cent. rests on a number of propositions. One is the obvious importance of the mining and extractive industries to our economy. That, of course, applies to many other industries as well. Then there is the competition they have to face from the mining industries of other countries which have high rates of tax allowance. Then there is the fact that in the mining industry capital is invested in a highly speculative business and very often the investor sees no return on it for a number of years.
    These are reasons for giving special attention to mining but there is another reason, that mining works are obviously clearly distinguishable in the case of either plant and machinery or industrial buildings, and have therefore always been in a special category. For example, the pit shafts, the underground works, and so on are completely useless for any other purpose. If the deposit becomes worked out, the pit shaft is useless. If, as often happens in speculative forms of mining, which are of such great importance, the deposit does not turn out to be what was expected, all the money sunk in putting that shaft down into the ground is lost.
    On the other hand, if a ship is built for a particular trade and it cannot be used when the time comes, it can be used for other purposes——
    Mr. C. R. Hobson: A tanker?
    Mr. Maudling: Obviously I do not mean that a tanker can be used for dry cargo, but if a ship is built with one run in mind and trade cannot be got on that run, obviously the ship can be used for other purposes.
    Mr. Hobson: Come, come.
    Mr. Maudling: I do not know of many ships that have been paid up simply because they could not be used for the precise runs for which they were intended.
    Mr. Hobson: What a brief.
    Mr. Maudling: I have been giving the reasons why the mines category has been increased to 40 per cent. The Amendment wishes to go further and suggests that there should be discrimination within the categories and particularly within the category of plant and machinery. The first thing we observe is that a large number of strong cases can be put for special treatment once we admit the principle of special treatment. We have had most interesting arguments about mechanical handling equipment, fork lift trucks, and machine tools. The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) mentioned self-service shops and we also heard a great deal about the claims of shipping. A range of industry from shipping at the one end to self-service shops at the other obviously includes every form of industrial equipment.
    The Committee will see, therefore, that once the principle of discrimination is admitted, the range of claims that can be put forward is enormous. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) said, a Dutch-auction might arise in the case of initial allowances as it has from time to time in the case of the Purchase Tax.
    There is no doubt that if we were to accept the principle of discriminatory allowances the case of the shipping industry for such treatment would be very strong. This Committee will always listen with the greatest attention to anything put forward on behalf of the shipping industry, and we should listen with particular attention to anything said today on behalf of the Mercantile Marine after our experiences yesterday. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has considered with the greatest care the weighty case put before him on behalf of the shipping industry, and if it were possible to discriminate there would obviously be a strong case for it.
    There are certain arguments the other way. It is true that up to now the limiting factor on shipping construction by our shipping lines has been the capacity of the industry and the supply of steel. It is equally true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) said, that the argument must not be pushed too far. We are watching with great concern the trend of shipbuilding in our yards for British owners, just as we are watching with great concern the
    840
    development of discriminatory flag practices by other countries and restrictions on our shipping abroad which, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barkston Ash said, undoubtedly give rise to concern.
    I have noticed recently in statements made by eminent leaders of the shipping industry a warning that orders may have to be cancelled or reduced because shipping costs are so high that it is impossible over the life of the vessel to earn an adequate net return on the money invested. That seems to me to be the main problem facing the shipping industry for which the initial allowance does not provide an adequate solution. It is only by reducing the direct rate of taxation, particularly the Income Tax, as we have done in this Budget, that we can hope to tackle the problems to which special reference has been made. The reductions in direct taxation contained in the Budget should be of great help to the shipping industry.
    It is suggested that shipping might be treated on a special basis for several reasons, and my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster referred to wear and tear allowances which, he said, were inadequate. I am not arguing the point that they are inadequate. I am saying that if they are inadequate there could be an argument put forward for changing those allowances. But I do not think it is a good argument to say that because they are wrong there should be a special discriminatory initial allowance.
    Mr. Nabarro: I am sure my hon. Friend would not dissent from the general principle of my argument that an initial allowance is only a forward weighting of the wear and tear allowances.
    Mr. Maudling: My point was that if it is right that the wear and tear allowances are inadequate, the best thing to do is to devise means of putting those allowances right rather than introducing a discriminatory initial allowance, because of the difficult consequences that would follow from it.
    Reference was also made to the need to replace ships so to speak as very large units and the tremendous earning power of the Mercantile Marine, and all this the Government thoroughly understand and appreciate, but there are other industries which could put forward similar arguments. A modern air liner

    841
    costs millions of pounds, and it needs to be replaced much more rapidly than does a ship. If we accept the arguments about ships on that basis, it would be impossible to resist it in the case of aircraft. The whole difficulty in accepting any discrimination is that one finds it very difficult indeed to reach any point where one can stop.
    8.30 p.m.
    The reasons the Government cannot accept the main Amendment are fourfold. There are, first, reasons of administration. There would undoubtedly be additional administrative complications, and it would also make it much more difficult year by year to calculate the probable yield of taxation and what sum might be involved by the variation of the initial allowances.
    Then there is the question of discrimination between taxpayer and taxpayer, and the feeling of injustice which might, and almost certainly would, be produced. We should always be most careful to preserve the taxpayer's sense of fairness in our tax system. We owe a great deal in this country to the way in which the taxation system works, and a great deal depends upon the feeling of the individual taxpayer that he is not discriminated against unfairly but is treated fairly in comparison with other taxpayers, and if we are to give special initial allowances to single industries, which is what is suggested in this Amendment, we should be in great difficulty.
    Let us take the case of the aircraft industry. There are firms manufacturing aircraft which also make paints, and if we were to give special treatment to all firms in the aircraft industry and not give similar treatment to those firms which make paints in competition with them, that would be the sort of practical problem which would arise and which would, undoubtedly, also give rise to the feeling that the taxation principle was not being applied fairly.
    Then there is the constitutional problem, because these proposals, as I understand them, would take out of the proper purview of Parliament what might be a very large amount of taxation.
    Finally, there is the economic point, and here, I am sure, there is a major difference of opinion between the two sides of the Committee. Hon. Gentlemen
    842
    opposite sincerely believe that it is right, and a sensible and efficient method of conducting the Government's economic policy, to try to influence individual businesses in detail—that the Government should decide which industry should expand and which should contract. Hon. Gentlemen opposite believe in detailed planning of that kind as the right kind of thing for the Government to do, and if one believes that, it follows that discriminatory initial allowances are a good way of carrying out that policy.
    The hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment said that this matter could not be left alone in modern conditions, but had to be done by the Government deciding which industry should expand and which had the least claim to expand. We on this side do not believe that that is the proper function of Government economic policy. We believe that it is for the Government to settle the broad lines of economic policy, to create the conditions in which industries—and, at the present moment, particularly the export industries—can flourish, but we do not believe it is the right thing for a modern industrial society to try to influence in detail the developments of individual industries by the method of selective initial allowances and by other discriminatory methods.
    Mr. Mitchison: Would that include directions or requests to the banks as to the ways in which their advances should be made, and the lines upon which they would be made for certain purposes?
    Mr. Maudling: I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will find that the general guidance given by the Capital Issues Committee to the banks is within the limits which I have outlined.
    To sum up, the reasons the Government cannot accept the Amendment are reasons of administration, discrimination between taxpayer and taxpayer, the doubtful constitutional principle of removing so much control over taxation from this Committee, and, finally, our rejection of the economic theory which seems to underly the Amendment.
    Mr. Jay: I think the reply of the Economic Secretary to the Treasury was most disappointing and totally unconvincing. I got the impression that he was doing his best with a brief from the

    843
    Inland Revenue, but that his heart was very much less in the argument than it usually is.
    I had some sympathy myself with the Inland Revenue argument that it is very difficult and burdensome to administer a discriminatory system of initial allowances, and it is certainly the job of the Inland Revenue to put these difficulties before any Minister, but I think it is also our job in this Committee to say whether the case is not so strong that the difficulties have to be met.
    Let us look at the case in the way in which the Economic Secretary divided it. He said that first and most important was the economic case for encouraging certain kinds of investment by this method. It seems to us that the case for selective encouragement of this kind is important for the very same reasons that a general increase in investment in what the Chancellor himself called productive industry in this country is so vital at the present time. Surely if it is important to have additional investment, with all the resources that involves, it is extremely important to see that that investment takes place in the right places.
    There has really been quite a remarkable amount of agreement on both sides of the Committee that some sort of selection and discrimination will be necessary. Almost all the arguments of hon. Members opposite this afternoon for shipping and other types of industry have implied that we have got to have that discrimination. Indeed, the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) said that in some parts of industry the case is particularly strong, and the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), if I understood him aright—though I was a little puzzled once or twice to know what conclusion he was going to reach—was in favour of certain forms of discrimination, if not by the House through a Dutch-auction, at any rate by the exercise of the discretion of the Chancellor. That is how I understood his argument.
    Surely we should all agree that it is vital at this time that investment should be increased in certain directions. It is quite true that the Government of 1951 had doubts about selective initial allowances because at that time the defence programme was being increased and investments of all kinds had to make way for
    844
    it; but now, of course, the circumstances are precisely the reverse. The defence programme is over the hump, and we all agree that there is what the Chancellor calls slack or flexibility in the economy. Therefore, we are in quite a different situation.
    Without entering into an argument about detailed planning—and I do not think that we on this side are really anxious to go into the degree of detail which the Economic Secretary attempts to suggest when he submits arguments against any planning at all—there is surely a case for encouraging more productive investment in such things as fuel saving, dollar earning, import saving, food production, and, indeed, Commonwealth development.
    After all, the Tucker Committee itself, which the Government often quotes when it is convenient to them to do so, accepted that principle as a main part of its conclusions, and I think the Committee ought to realise that this evening. Paragraph 123 of the Tucker Committee's Report says:
    "A company which carries on a shipping undertaking and is a large earner of dollars may very well be thought to be entitled to more consideration than a company which runs a fair ground."
    I should not have thought that was too modernistic a doctrine for this Committee to accept at this time.
    The Economic Secretary really advanced no reply to the Tucker Committee on that point. He went on to say that if we committed this dreadful breach of taxation principles there would be feelings of injustice throughout industry; but surely the very argument that he himself advanced about the mines, the oil wells and the ships shows that that is a very greatly exaggerated point of view. It may be that the discrimination which the Chancellor has introduced this year in favour of mines and oil wells is a different sort of discrimination. Nevertheless, it is discrimination, and I have not noticed in the columns of the financial Press or elsewhere that it has produced a great shout of resentment from other parts of industry. Similarly there was an instance with which the right hon. Member for Renfrew, West (Mr. Maclay) was involved in 1951, in favour of ships.
    Mr. John Maclay: It would be a pity if that version went out from the Committee. A very welcome concession was made, on that occasion, but it was not discriminatory in the sense which the right hon. Gentleman implies. Some owners had placed contracts for ships or had ships building on the assumption that these contracts would qualify for initial allowances. But for the concession, they would have lost them.
    Mr. Jay: It was a different form of special treatment, if the right hon. Gentleman prefers that expression, but it did not lead to any great outcry, or feeling of injustice.
    There is a further argument in principle in favour of this type of discrimination which I think nobody has yet advanced in this debate and which the Economic Secretary himself did not mention. This is one upon which the Tucker Committee laid quite a lot of emphasis. They said that there was already discrimination in the rates of wear and tear, and they very reasonably asked why, in principle, if we admit one sort of discrimination we should reject the other.
    Mr. Maudling: That was not discrimination in the principles on which the wear and tear allowance was calculated.
    Mr. Jay: The Economic Secretary makes a rather artificial distinction. Whether you call it a principle or not, this is what the Committee said:
    "We see no more reason for applying the same rate of initial allowance to all classes of plant and machinery than for applying the same rates of wear and tear. Just as the rates of annual wear and tear allowances have always varied according to an estimated life of the class of plant or machinery in question, so the rate of initial allowance could be varied in accordance with its current price level."
    So the Tucker Committee thought the case for these two things was parallel. No answer has been advanced against that at all.
    Finally, naturally and very understandably, the hon. Gentleman advanced the argument that there was great administrative difficulty and impracticability in this suggestion. Indeed, that is one of the points which we felt bound to mention in 1951 when the circumstances were different, but when we are increas-
    846
    ing and not reducing initial allowances we are bound to look at that point again.
    In the United States in recent years and during the defence programme, there has been a system in effect of discrimination by the Treasury. I think they call it the grant of a "certificate of necessity" by which individual schemes of investment are given special rates of amortisation. That is one piece of evidence, which I do not over-estimate, that this sort of thing can be done.
    Of course, we can carry much too far the argument that once we start to discriminate in this way we shall have Dutch-auctions and all sorts of forms of special pressure, and no satisfactory solution will be reached. I believe there are some problems of this kind which are administratively insoluble, and that it is a mistake to say that anything could be done if we tried hard enough. I could think of several other problems in the financial sphere where I agree with the Economic Secretary, but I do not believe that this is one of them.
    I will, in conclusion quote one parallel where these same arguments were used and where the difficulties have been satisfactorily overcome. I remember very well when the original Distribution of Industry Bill, 1945, was being drafted that the question arose whether it would be possible for the Board of Trade to schedule certain areas of the country as Development Areas and then to grant special assistance to those areas. It was said at the time that there would be pressure on the politicians, Dutch-auctions, and all the rest of it, if we did that, but in fact the arrangement then was very similar to the one which we propose in the Amendment.
    8.45 p.m.
    The Bill laid down that where in the opinion of the Board of Trade it was necessary for the better distribution of industry, they might with the approval of Parliament schedule certain selected areas as Development Areas. That has worked very smoothly and effectively. Changes have been made from time to time, but there has been no terrible controversy and, as far as I know, no undesirable Dutch-auction. That proves that, given the effort in this not exactly similar but comparable case, some arrangement of this kind could be made.

    847
    If the Economic Secretary says that it may be that that could be done in a case such as that of the Distribution of Industry Act, where it is a question of Government expenditure, but that where there is a question of taxation the principle is more difficult, it could be argued that this principle has been admitted already by the D Scheme in the case of Purchase Tax, which the present Government introduced. I mention that by way of illustration to point out that the D Scheme gives exemption from Purchase Tax to certain kinds of goods and excludes others. That proves that the problem is not insoluble.
    I think that we on this side would not accept that part of the Tucker Committee's recommendations which leaves the Government only in a position to make this kind of discrimination if a trade association came forward and proposed it. I do not see
    why we should write it into the statute that a Government is powerless to act unless some trading association takes the initiative. We propose that it should be in the discretion of the Treasury and that it should be open to a trading body or an individual firm or anybody to come forward and make a suggestion.
    We feel that primarily in the interest of encouraging investment in productive industry at a time when, as I fear, the Chancellor's Budget is tending to encourage consumption rather than investment, we ought to take some steps of this kind. If we can have no more positive a response than the very sterile speech of the Economic Secretary, if I may so describe it, I must advise my hon. Friends to press this matter further.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 251.

    Division No. 187.]

    AYES

    [8.47 p.m

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Albu, A. H.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

    Edelman, M.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

    Edwards, John (Brighouse)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

    Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

    Bartley, P.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Bence, C. R.

    Fernyhough, E.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Fienburgh, W.

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Beswick, F.

    Finch, H. J.

    Keenan, W.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Kenyon, C.

    Blackburn, F.

    Follick, M.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W

    Bryton, W. R.

    Foot, M. M.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Boardman, H.

    Forman, J. C.

    Kinley, J.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Bowden, H. W.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Bowles, F. G.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Glanville, James

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Gooch, E. G.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Logan, D. G.

    Burke, W. A.

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Grey, C. F.

    McGovern, J.

    Callaghan, L. J.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    McInnes, J.

    Carmichael, J.

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Champion, A. J.

    Hale, Leslie

    McLeavy, F.

    Chapman, W. D.

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

    Clunie, J.

    Hannan, W.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Coldrick, W.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Collick, P. H.

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Hastings, S.

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Cove, W. G.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Manuel, A. C.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Healy, Cahir (Fermanagh)

    Mason, Roy

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Daines, P.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    Holman, P.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

    Monslow, W.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hoy, J. H.

    Moody, A. S.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Deer, G.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Morley, R.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

    Mort, D. L.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Thornton, E.

    Moyle, A.

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Timmons, J.

    Mulley, F. W.

    Ross, William

    Tomney, F.

    Meal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Royle, C.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Shacklelon, E. A. A.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Ordfield, W. H.

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

    Wallace, H. W.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

    Orbach, M.

    Short, E. W.

    Weitzman, D.

    Oswald, T.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Paget, R. T.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    West, D. G.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Slater, Mrs. (Stoke, N.)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Pannell, Charles

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Whileley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Parker, J.

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Wigg, George

    Paton, J.

    Snow, J, W.

    Williams. David (Neath)

    Peart, T. F.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Aberlillery)

    Popplewell, E.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Porter, G.

    Steele, T.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brighside)

    Rankin, John

    Swingler, S. T.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Reeves, J.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Yates, V. F.

    Reid, William (Camlachie)

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Rhodes, H.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpelh)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Mr. Pearson and Mr Arthur Allen.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Digby, S. Wingfield

    Holt, A. F.

    Anstruiher-Gray, Major W. J.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Hope, Lord John

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Horobin, I. M.

    Astor, Hon. J. J.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Banks, Col. C.

    Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Barber, Anthony

    Duthie, W. S.

    Hurd, A. R.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (llford, N.)

    Baxter, A. B.

    Erroll, F. J.

    Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Fell, A.

    Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Fisher, Nigel

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Fletcher Cooke, C.

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Bennett, William (Woodside)

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth).

    Fort, R.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Birch, Nigel

    Foster, John

    Kaberry, D.

    Bishop, F. P.

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Kerr, H. W,

    Black, C. W.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambo & Lonsdale)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Bossom, Sir A. C.

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

    Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Gammans, L. D.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Godber, J. B.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Browne, Jack (Govan)

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T

    Gowar, H. R.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Bullard, D. G.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Longden, Gilbert

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Low, A. R. W.

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Grimond, J.

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Campbell, Sir David

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Carr, Robert

    Harden, J. R. E.

    McAdden, S. J.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    McCallum, Major D.

    Channon, H.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Cole, Norman

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

    Heath, Edward

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.)

    Crouch, R. F.

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    850

    851

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Studholme, H. G.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Summers, G. S.

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Redmayne, M.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Markham, Major Sir S. F.

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Taylor, William, (Bradford, N.)

    Marples, A. E.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Maude, Angus

    Robertson, Sir David

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Maudling, R.

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Crcydon, W.)

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Medlicott, Brig. F.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    Mellor, Sir John

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Turton, R. H.

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Russell, R. S.

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

    Vosper, D. F.

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Scott, R. Donald

    Wade, D. W.

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Shepherd, William

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Nutting, Anthony

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Odey, G. W.

    Snadden, M. McN.

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Watkinson, H. A.

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Speir, R. M.

    Wellwood, W.

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

    Osborne, C.

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Partridge, E.

    Stevens, G. P.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Storey, S.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Major Conant and Mr. Wills.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Mr. Crosland: I beg to move, in page 9, line 28, after "applies," to insert:
    "(not being expenditure certified by the Treasury under subsection (2) of this section)."
    This is merely a paving Amendment. The substance of the matter is contained in the second Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) in page 9, line 37. I should like to draw the attention of hon. Members to the fact that there is a new Schedule which goes with this Amendment, and which is headed "Fuel Economy Installations."
    Briefly, this Amendment seeks to grant not a 40 per cent. but a 100 per cent. initial allowance in respect of certain types of fuel-saving equipment. It is, therefore, in rather a different category from any of the subjects we have been discussing, in which many pleas were made for special treatment for certain industries. Those pleas were for a 40 per cent. allowance as opposed to a 20 per cent. allowance.
    The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Hopkin Morris): Is the hon. Member moving the Amendment in page 9, line 28, after "shall," to insert:
    "save as in the following subsection appears."
    That is the one which should be moved. The other is not selected.
    Mr. Crosland: As the wording is almost identical it will not make a great deal of difference to which one I attach my remarks. I beg to move, in page 9, line 28, after "shall" to insert:
    "save as in the following subsection appears."
    Mr. Nabarro: May we be perfectly clear about this? The Amendment which you have just stated should have been moved, Mr. Hopkin Morris, purports to include what is commonly called the fuel economy installations Amendment, which is the second Amendment in page 9, line 37, in the name of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell).
    9.0 p.m.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if the two Amendments were discussed together.
    Mr. Gaitskell: That was the proposal made by Sir Charles.
    Mr. Crosland: We seem more or less clear and agreed as to what we are discussing, and, fortunately, it is what I began discussing some two or three minutes ago—the so-called fuel saving equipment Amendment. The background to the Amendment and the discussion is the present and future outlook of out coal supplies. The short-term outlook

    853
    for the coming winter cannot possibly be described as reassuring. Through no fault of those working in the industry, the output of coal this year is barely the same as it was at this time last year, and we shall lose about 3,500,000 tons later in the year because of the very well-deserved second week's holiday which has been granted to the mining industry as from this year. There is, therefore, a distinct possibility that we may this year have less coal than we had last year or, at any rate, we cannot possibly get very much more than we had last year.
    Clearly, we shall need a good deal more coal than we needed last year. First, our coal exports are running a good deal higher than they were last year, and it is essential to our balance of payments position that they should go on doing so. Even more significant and important, if we get what the Chancellor is banking on and what hon. Members on all sides hope we shall get—a distinct spurt in industrial production later in the year—that will considerably increase the demand for coal over the level at which it was running last year. The situation of a very much higher demand than last year might not cause any anxiety if the stocks were much higher than they were at this time last year, but, in fact, they are about one million tons less.
    The situation which confronts us this coming winter should, therefore, be taken very seriously. We are bound to be even more concerned this evening with the long-term question of coal supply and coal demand, because no action taken in the Budget, as a result of the Amendment, or any other action now, can possibly have a great effect on the coal situation in a few months' time. When considering the case for the Amendment, it is more important to look ahead and decide what the coal situation in this country will be over the next five or 10 years.
    I firmly believe that this country is faced, as far ahead as one can see, with a very serious shortage of coal. A great number of estimates have been made of how much coal we shall need in the future. The Ridley Committee put the inland demand for coal at a little over 230 million tons, but most people who have considered this question have criticised the Ridley Committee for setting the demand a great deal too low,
    854
    and the Federation of British Industries, in their evidence to the Committee, put the inland demand for coal about 30 million tons higher than that—something well over 260 million tons.
    The Coal Board have worked on the thesis that we shall be able to export, on the average of years, between 25 million and 35 million tons, a great deal more than we are exporting at the moment. If we add that export demand to the home demand, even the Ridley Committee's total estimate is brought to about 270 million or 280 million tons, and if we take the estimate of future home demand by the Federation of British Industries, we get a total requirement of coal, for home and export combined, of very little under 300 million tons a year. Even estimates like that can quite easily be criticised for being too low, because the Coal Board's mean figure of what the export demand is likely to be—25 million to 35 million tons—is quite likely to turn out to be on the low side.
    Hon. Members may have seen the chapter in last year's annual report of the Economic Commission for Europe which dealt with the long-term coal situation in Western Europe as a whole. E.C.E. came to the conclusion that towards the end of this decade there might very well be a gap between supply and demand in coal in Western Europe of anything up to 50 million tons. In most years recently Europe has been importing American coal. If one adds the imports of American coal to this increase in the likely prospective gap one concludes that we might very easily be able to export a good deal more coal, if the coal were there, than the National Coal Board now envisage. In any case, whichever one of these figures one takes, it is quite clear that the demand for coal is very much higher than our present export output. It may very easily be in the region of 300 million tons of coal a year.
    There is no possibility whatever of producing 300 million tons of coal a year during this decade or probably during the next, and, therefore, the question arises whether one can do something on the demand side to ensure that coal is used more efficiently than now, because if these bodies of experts, the Ridley Committee, the Federation of British Industries, the E.C.E. and the like, are right as to the likely increase in the de-

    855
    mand for coal, particularly from industry, it is clear that we may be faced with an extremely difficult supply situation.
    This Amendment is concerned, naturally, with the consumption of coal in industry. On this subject I speak completely as a layman. I can pretend to no expert knowledge of fuel efficiency such as the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) has. It appears to be the view of everybody who does have expert knowledge of this subject that there is an enormous potential saving of coal to be achieved in industry. Industry is, of course, much the largest single consumer of coal in Britain.
    Quite a number of people who have written or spoken on this subject have suggested that it may very easily be possible by a higher average efficiency in fuel utilisation to save 10 million tons or 15 million tons—some people have even mentioned 20 million tons—of coal a year. The question is: what can be done to encourage that saving? The experts say that a great deal of this coal could be saved without the installation of any new equipment, merely by managers in industry generally paying more attention to the subject of fuel efficiency.
    Colonel O. E. Crosthwaite-Eyre: When the hon. Gentleman makes that remark has he any evidence for it?
    Mr. Crosland: I have the evidence of the Ridley Committee. I have the evidence of, I should think, about 25 hon. Members opposite who claim very close acquaintance with industry, and given in quite a number of debates in this Chamber on this subject. I think there have been in the last few years three debates here on fuel efficiency in which hon. Members opposite have taken part and put forward that evidence. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price) initiated one of the debates about a year ago. Hon. Members opposite have said that a saving has to be made, and it is an entirely new point of view to say there is no saving to be made.
    A great part of it does require the installation of new equipment, and the question we are debating tonight is whether anything can be done by the
    856
    Government in this Bill to encourage the installation of such equipment. Hon. Members will remember that about a year ago the Minister of Fuel and Power started a scheme whereby about £1 million was to be set aside for loans to industrialists to encourage them to install fuel-saving equipment. I have not seen a very recent figure of how much of this £1 million has been taken up by industry, but the Minister was kind enough to tell me today, speaking without the book, that it was something well under 10 per cent. of the total sum, and I think it is fair to say—the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power is here, and I do not think it is disputed by the Ministry—that this scheme of loans at commercial rates of interest has clearly not been the success it was hoped it would be. It has been in operation a year, and I should think it is safe to say that it will not be a spectacular success and that it will not have any appreciable effect on the position.
    That is why, in this Amendment, we have come out with a, as we hope, rather more effective proposal, that instead of loans at commercial rates of interest we should have 100 per cent. initial allowances. In this, as hon. Members will recall, we are following the recommendation of the Ridley Committee, who say, in paragraph 179 on page 44 of their Report—and I do not think it is in any dispute, except apparently by the hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre)—after speaking a great deal about the possibility of more efficient fuel utilisation in industry:
    "there is evidence that many industrialists are not sufficiently attracted by the net returns on investment in fuel efficiency measures to make such investment on the scale that seems to us justifiable and necessary."
    They go on to say, in paragraph 181:
    "We consider, in these conditions, that there is a sound case for the Government's providing some special financial incentive for firms to install fuel-saving equipment, on the grounds that the value of coal economy is greater to the nation than to the individual firm."
    Their specific proposal is that
    "the Government should allow firms to charge the whole of any capital expenditure on fuel efficiency to revenue for tax purposes in the year when the investment was made instead of charging the normal Inland Revenue depreciation allowance annually."
    That is equivalent to 100 per cent. initial, allowance on equipment.
    Mr. Nabarro: Without in any way dissenting from that, I would point out that the hon. Gentleman has not referred to the recommendation in paragraph 182 on pages 44 and 45.
    Mr. Crosland: I was coming to that; I was going on to read that, and to say that although the Ridley Committee say
    "We would support this proposal,"
    apparently, after having discussed it with the Inland Revenue, they go on to say they have been told by the Inland Revenue that the proposal has great administrative difficulties and, therefore, do not publish it in their list of recommendations. They do use the phrase,
    "we would support this proposal, but we understand that [there are] administrative difficulties and expenses."
    That is the proposal this Amendment makes.
    The main objection raised to any proposal of this kind is, naturally, the objection that the Inland Revenue will be landed in great difficulties if it has to decide that certain types of equipment are to have 100 per cent. initial allowances and other types are to have only 20 per cent. initial allowances, but I suggest that this difficulty cannot be considered insuperable. Our Amendment says that the Ministry of Fuel and Power is to be. as it were, the appropriate Ministry for deciding what equipment is to carry and what equipment is not to carry 100 per cent. initial allowance. We say that this allowance should be given only in cases where the Ministry is satisfied that the equipment fulfils certain conditions, and since the onus of the technical decision, as it were, is placed not on the Inland Revenue but on the Ministry of Fuel and Power it is hard to believe that the administrative argument can be decisive.
    The Committee will see that we have put on the Order Paper a Schedule which actually mentions a number of types of equipment and capital expenditure. We have drawn up this Schedule, containing six items, not because we believe that this is necessarily an exclusive list of all the items which ought to attract the allowance—most of us who drew up the schedule would not have the technical competence to draw up a completely inclusive list of such equipment—but for the purposes of illustration, and to show that it is not impossible to describe the
    858
    sort of equipment the installation of which one wishes to encourage. As hon. Members interested will have perceived at once, the list of equipment in the schedule is taken from a Ministry of Fuel and Power document which is available in the Library. It is taken from the document which announces and explains the £1 million loans scheme to which I referred earlier.
    It seems to me fairly clear that if the Ministry can define equipment for the purposes of granting loans when it is installed, they can equally define equipment when it is a question of deciding what rate of initial allowance the equipment is to bear. There must be people in the Ministry who are able to say, "Yes" to that type of equipment for the loan scheme, and "No" to the other, and they will be able to give similar answers where the question is, not whether loans should be offered but whether 100 per cent. initial allowances should be granted. It is difficult to believe that the administrative difficulty is a really insuperable one.
    9.15 p.m.
    It may well be that the Amendment could be far better worded than we have worded it. Most of us are not highly technical experts on this subject, and the difficulties of framing an Amendment when in Oppostion are well known. Hon. Members on this side, if the Chancellor were in the mood to accept the general points we are making, would be only too delighted if he would redraft the Clause in a way which he considered more satisfactory.
    I should like to deal with what seems to me to be much the most serious objection to this proposal and similar proposals of this kind. That is this. Hon. Members may say, "There are administrative difficulties which, of course, we admit. We do not think that they are insuperable but, naturally, they are administrative difficulties." They may say, "Is the kind of fuel economy which you will make really worth these additional difficulties?" They may say, "Our industrialists were not all that attracted by loans. Will they be all that more attracted by the offer of 100 per cent. initial allowance?" Will this be an incentive which, in fact, saves a great deal of coal?
    That is an argument which, at any rate, in the case of coal I suggest that

    859
    one cannot possibly accept. It may be true that the saving which will be achieved by this measure or any other in the sphere of fuel economy is very small. It may be a marginal saving of, say, one million tons of coal in two years. I do not know, but supposing that it is, coal is a case in which small savings are of vital importance because in our coal budget, looking ahead for, say, 10 years, we shall be working on a very narrow margin and to save one million tons of coal is something worth doing. It may be a small amount of coal relative to the 220 million tons which we produce annually, but the last million tons of coal is of enormous importance to this country.
    It can be sold for export without difficulty at higher prices than purchased in the home market and so it would improve our balance of payments to that extent. All of us in this Committee assume an enormous increase in industrial production in this country, but is cannot possibly occur on the basis of the supplies of coal which, at the moment, are in prospect. A larger supply of coal for the home market is a condition of getting an increase in industrial output. If there is not sufficient coal for industry, an increase in output will not take place, and this one million tons of coal may therefore be even more important from that point of view than the suggestion that it might all go for export. It may make the difference between our having a coal crisis and our not having a coal crisis.
    Supposing that our failure to get one million tons more coal means that production is 5 per cent. lower than it otherwise would be, the economic value of this one million tons of coal is not reflected in the slightest degree by the price of the coal but by the loss of production which our not having this one million tons of coal may cause. I would seriously suggest that it is not sufficient to say, in the case of coal, that the saving may be relatively small and the incentive not very great. I think that the thing to do in a case like that is to do a number of individual things which, in themselves, may not result in an enormous saving but, collectively, will give a saving of enormous importance from the national point of view.
    In conclusion, I should like to say a word about the relation of this Amendment to the other Amendments which we
    860
    have been discussing or which are on the Order Paper and have not been selected, asking for additional initial allowance concessions to particular industries. We are in the case of bricks, shipping, self-service and, I think, two or three other Amendments asking for an initial allowance of 40 per cent. instead of 20 per cent. I should like to stress that, in my view, this fuel-saving equipment Amendment does not come within the same category as the others. I would appeal to whoever is to reply for the Government not to reply to this Amendment in the same terms—that is to say, the argument about discrimination— which, very naturally, from their point of view, they replied to on other Amendments asking for concessions.
    I believe it is a perfectly logical attitude to take to say, as the Government said on a previous Amendment, although I did not agree with them about it, "we will not accept the principle of discrimination in the case of a great number of individual industries, but, nevertheless, we will accept the 100 per cent. initial allowance proposal in the case of fuel-saving equipment." This industry is an exception for a number of vital reasons, first of all in this case, as in no other, because we had a Government committee of great authority, the Ridley Committee, which would have recommended this and was only deterred from doing so by talk of the administrative difficulty. That alone puts the Amendment on a rather different level.
    Secondly, it is clear that there is no other industry in the country which can claim anything like the degree of national economic importance that the coal industry can. Far more than any other industry in Britain, the coal industry can make all the difference between the success or failure of our productive effort over the next ten years. It is not true to say that if it is conceded in the case of coal it will have to be conceded to all sorts of other industries which have an equally strong claim, for they have not an equally strong claim.
    What we ought to do in the case of any financial measures which will encourage fuel economy is to put coal into a different category from other industries, as we already do in the case of agriculture. There are several respects in which agriculture is treated somewhat differently

    861
    from other industries in Government financial policy, and this has always been so no matter what political party is concerned. Apart from food, coal is the one primary product of this country, and it is wholly logical that agriculture and coal should be treated differently from other industries, deliberately treated as exceptional cases compared with other industries in Britain.
    I appeal to the Chancellor to recognise that it would be logical to maintain the stand against discrimination in general but, nevertheless, to accept the Amendment. I hope he will accept the Amendment. He and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury have been courteous enough to listen to the debate. Perhaps I might be forgiven for saying that the Government's fuel policy is not a great success at the moment. The Chancellor's contribution so far is to reduce the price of electric stoves, to which the hon. Member for Kidderminster took exception when we dealt with Purchase Tax under the Finance Bill.
    A new policy decision for the whole question is now required. An experiment was made with the £1 million loan scheme, and it was worth making and everyone wished it well, but it is fair to say that it has now more or less failed. Therefore, a new policy decision is required. One thing we cannot afford to do in the matter of fuel utilisation is to continue to do nothing and have many no doubt admirable advisory services to which everybody pays tributes but which are not making a big difference quickly enough. We cannot continue in a general state of masterly inactivity. A new decision is required, and I appeal to the Chancellor to announce it tonight.
    Mr. Nabarro: I do not dissent at all from the principles which have been enunciated by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland). The majority of us would subscribe to his dissertation on the coal position. I do not in any way wish to attribute blame to the men who produce the coal, but I am perhaps a little critical of the people who use the coal, for I have no hesitation in saying that really significant economies can be made in coal consumption by British industry if a programme of re-equipment with coal-burning plant is energetically pursued.
    862
    While we have no difference in principle in this regard, there is a good deal of controversy, which has now been continuing for more than three years, as to how we can best provide some form of incentive to industry as a whole, to economise in the coal that it consumes. Hon. Members in all parts of the Committee will agree with me when I say that industries which are heavy coal consumers are, generally speaking, the most efficient in the way they use the raw material. The culprits are the medium and the smaller firms who use lesser quantities of coal, and in the absence of any form of financial incentive to save coal they are generally somewhat negligent in their use of it.
    We first resorted to the practice of having a coal debate in the middle of our deliberations on the Finance Bill in 1951. I then had the responsibility of initiating the discussion for the retention of initial allowances at the rate of 40 per cent. for coal-consuming equipment in industry. The Amendment was defeated in a Division when the Conservative and Liberal Parties voted for it and the Socialist Party voted against it. I make no party political point of that fact. I merely observe that, replying to the debate, the then Economic Secretary the hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. J. Edwards)—and I shall not trouble the Committee by quoting the full extract from the OFFICIAL REPORT which is in column 1382 of 7th June, 1951—said that discriminations could not be made available for one class of equipment.
    Since that date we have had the Report of the Ridley Committee, an admirable debate on a Private Member's Motion initiated by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price) on 7th March, 1952, and a full debate on the Ridley Report on 28th October, 1952. There has always been general agreement on two fundamental facts, on both sides of the Committee. Firstly, there are big savings of coal to be derived from British industries; and secondly, the savings will not be achieved unless some form of fiscal or financial incentive is provided.
    I do not believe that any useful purpose will be served this evening by trying to elaborate the methods of saving coal in industry, but I wish to devote just a few moments to what has been written

    863
    and said about the best method of providing these incentives. The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Cros-land) quoted paragraph 182 of the Ridley Committee on pages 44 and 45, Cmd. 8647, but he did not quote the whole passage in the order in which it appears in the Report, and I think it is proper that it should be quoted in the correct textual order and sequence. The Report said:
    "It has frequently been suggested that to provide a financial incentive to coal economy, the Government should allow firms to charge the whole of any capital expenditure on fuel efficiency to revenue for tax purposes in the year when the investment was made, instead of charging the normal Inland Revenue depreciation allowance annually. This amounts to an interest-free loan to the firm from the Government. We would support this proposal, but we understand that the administrative difficulties and expenses may be so great as to rule out its adoption, and instead we recommend the direct provision of loans by the Government."
    I halt there. The Ridley Committee endorsed the view that it was administratively impracticable to apply what the hon. Gentleman is really proposing, that is, a charge to revenue, in the year in which the expenditure is incurred, of the whole cost of the capital cost of the fixed assets. That is tantamount to a 100 per cent. initial allowance. The difficulty is, of course, twofold. First of all, there is the violent discrimination, which I disregard personally because I think it is worth having that discrimination, and there is also the equally great problem of identification. The Ridley Report goes on in the latter part of paragraph 182 and makes this significant recommendation:
    "We recommend that the present experimental loan scheme "—
    I commend these words to my right hon. Friend—
    "for installing approved fuel-saving equipment should be expanded, that advances should be made at specially favourable interest rates, that their repayment should be spread over a period of not less than 10 years, and that the Inland Revenue should allow depreciation over the same period."
    9.30 p.m.
    The experimental loans scheme brought in by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power in his speech on 7th March, 1952, has been an abject failure. I am informed that out of £1 million no more than £40,000 has
    864
    actually been lent, which is one-twenty-fifth or 4 per cent. Why has it failed? Let me try to analyse why. Firstly, because the range of equipment that might be made the subject of these loans was not by any means comprehensive and, with great respect to the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South, that is the principal failing in his Amendment.
    Mr. Crosland: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to interrupt, the text of the Amendment in page 9, line 37, clearly refers to the inclusion of such equipment as is mentioned in the Schedule. It makes it quite clear that it is not an exclusive list.
    Mr. Nabarro: That is a valuable reply, but the difficulty is that while the hon. Gentleman has correctly delineated a number of items, there are literally hundreds of items of industrial apparatus that can fall within the general description of fuel economising equipment, and to make our proposals effective the fiscal or financial relief must attempt something much more comprehensive either than the subject of the experimental loans scheme or the subject of the Amendment.
    The second reason for the failure was the fact that the interest rate is much too high. I make no pretence about that fact and I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will not try to score a party point off me. The third is that there has been undue procedural difficulty in securing these loans. Later on we shall be discussing bricks. May I mention here, Mr. Hopkin Morris that if one rebuilds a brick kiln in a brickworks one saves a lot of coal, but brick kilns are not defined as being part of industrial fuel-economising equipment. Therefore they are excluded; therefore they are not in the loans scheme, and therefore they are not in the Amendment.
    Thus we have to aim first at making the range of equipment more comprehensive, secondly we have to aim at the elimination of the interest rate, and thirdly we have to simplify the procedural matters in order to dispose of the difficulties which I have described.
    Now one word about what follows the Ridley Report. One of its recommendations was that there should be a much enlarged fuel advisory service. For that

    865
    reason my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel created a Committee under Sir Harry Pilkington to advise on this greatly enlarged advisory service in industry. The hon. Gentleman was quite right in what he said about the advisory service. Sir Harry Pilkington confirmed his view, for I am informed that the Pilkington Report makes the point powerfully that however large and however comprehensive the industrial fuel efficiency and advisory service may be, it will fail in its purpose unless some form of financial incentive is provided. Why? The Pilkington Report again brings out the point that industrial firms have no special inducement to spend money on fuel efficiency because fuel costs represent only a very small proportion of total production costs. Further, industrial fuel efficiency does not ensure that any more coal is given to the efficient individual firm in time of shortage than to the inefficient.
    Therefore, I do not dissent in principle from anything that the hon. Gentleman said in his speech. If my right hon. Friend considers that this proposal to provide a 100 per cent. initial allowance is impracticable, I feel confident that when he replies he can endorse the view of the Ridley Committee and of the Pilkington Committee, which I have supported this evening, that we must have some financial or fiscal inductment to get greater fuel efficiency in industry. If this is not the right formula embodied in the Amendment, what is the correct formula? Can my right hon. Friend give us any lead in that direction.
    I want to conclude on this point. I do not wish to scarify what may well be the coal position next winter, but I will simply give one or two figures. In the first 20 weeks of 1953, we produced 86.1 million tons of coal; in the first 20 weeks of 1952, we produced 85.2 million tons of coal. Therefore, in that 20-week period of this year, compared with last year, coal production increased by only 900,000 tons, while coal consumption increased by 1,100,000 tons.
    Therefore, we are further back than last year, but my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power has already officially and publicly given an estimate that this year we shall lose 4½ million tons of coal on account of the very well-deserved second week's holiday for miners
    866
    and on account of the equally well-deserved Coronation holiday to all coalface and surface workers in the mining industry, to which they are fully entitled. That does not detract in any way from the seriousness of the position and the fact that we are courting collapse in industry by failing to give attention to this vitally important point of industrial fuel efficiency.
    Nothing that my right hon. Friend does in this respect can change the position next winter, but had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) and a lot of his hon. Friends taken my advice in 1951 in providing the financial and fiscal incentive which we all wanted, our coal budget today might be in a much more healthy condition. Therefore, I hope my right hon. Friend will advance some formula for dealing with this matter, albeit an alternative proposal to that made in the wholly admirable speech of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South.
    Mr. M. Philips Price: The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) has made a speech which, for him, was very objective. He eschewed the quicksands of party politics and gave us what was, from his point of view, a very fair argument of the case.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, had a very different situation to meet in 1951 than that which the present Chancellor has to meet today. We were then on the up-grade of the rearmament programme, and economies had to be made in home investment. Therefore, he was not able to accept the Amendment which was put forward by the hon. Member for Kidderminster. The situation is different today, and I think we can fairly argue that it is such that the Government should do everything possible to encourage investment of this kind, particularly because of the immense advantages which fuel economy will have on the economy of the country as a whole, on which both sides of the Committee generally agree.
    I have taken some interest in this matter, because I moved a Private Member's Motion on this subject in March of last year, which the hon. Member for Kidderminster was good enough to second, and which secured the acceptance of the whole House. That debate is a

    867
    useful record of all parties agreeing on the vital importance of the matter. But, of course, the situation is very little better now than it was then. I think there have been some economies made in the industry, thanks to the educational work which has been going on and to the activities of the Ministry of Fuel and Power, but there are also certain disturbing facts. The electricity programme, as it is to be carried out, will mean an enormous increase in coal consumption, unless action is taken at an early date to economise consumption in that respect.
    As I pointed out in that debate 18 months ago, although economies can be made in domestic fuel consumption, the major economies can only be made in industry, and it is just there that the Amendment is so important. We could encourage by direct tax remissions such things as the better lagging of pipes and the better insulation of roofs so that factories could be laid out with all these latest improvements.
    The list of approved equipment, such as has been set out in this special Schedule, may not be perfect, but it could certainly be added to or subtracted from as found necessary. If the Ministry of Fuel and Power could draw up a list of approved equipment similar to that on which they are now advancing money for this purpose, and if that same list could be used for the purpose of allowing this initial allowance that, surely, would be the way out.
    As a result of the debate 18 months ago on this subject, the Minister of Fuel and Power made an offer to industry of loans at commercial rates of interest for the purpose of installing fuel-saving equipment. The result of that offer has been very unsatisfactory. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) said that he had not got the figures, but he quoted one-tenth of the amount which was expected. I happen to have the figures because the Minister of Fuel and Power gave them not long ago in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Kidderminster.
    The applications amounted to £249,707, those rejected amounted to £89,973 and those granted to only £25,960. That means, no doubt, although it does not say
    868
    so, that a considerable number of applications on which no decision has yet been reached are still outstanding. At any rate, it is quite clear that the figure is not enough. Possibly, if the interest rates were lower than the present bank rates the results would be better. In any case, I doubt whether by that method alone full results will be obtained. Something much more is needed.
    I think my hon. Friend was quite right to move this Amendment at this time when, I think, the national economy is better able to bear it. This problem of saving fuel is absolutely vital to our national economy and to our balance of payments. I hope, therefore, that the Chancellor will give us something to bite on and will accept the Amendment, or, at any rate, say that at a later stage he will introduce something with possibly a different Schedule from that proposed by my hon. Friends.
    9.45 p.m.
    Sir Victor Raikes: I think that on both sides of the Committee there is a genuine anxiety in regard to this question of fuel economy. I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) in moving the Amendment and also to that of my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). Although I do not always agree with my hon. Friend, particularly when we get on to certain matters connected with hydro-electric projects, I am in very strong agreement with what he says tonight. I can see the difficulty with 100 per cent. initial allowances even in this important matter of fuel utilisation. Whoever the Chancellor were, he would have only a certain amount of money to play with and it is difficult to put 100 per cent. on one thing without being carried on to a degree where the whole Budget will be unbalanced.
    On the other hand, my hon. Friend dealt with the more technical difficulty relating to the number of items which could be covered. However widely we framed the Amendment or the Schedule, much must inevitably be left outside. My own feeling, speaking in the rather less partisan atmosphere on both sides of the Committee—we all know that fuel will be more vital than anything else to us in the future—is that we might consider the possibility of finding a way out for the

    869
    Chancellor if he feels unable to give the whole 100 per cent. We do not want a battle tonight on the reasons why we are not getting as much production of fuel as we should like. My hon. Friend said that Coronation year was obviously affecting production, but we are bound to say that the rise of consumption during this year is a great anxiety. We are in danger of finding ourselves at the end of this year having to cut exports, which will affect our position very gravely.
    Saving and conservation of fuel are as important as production and, whether produced or saved, coal is of greater value than gold for the future of this nation. Suppose we cannot get the whole 100 per cent., which may be a rather big thing to ask, and means asking for some form of interest-free loan. I would ask the Chancellor to consider an alternative. The Ridley Committee emphasised that, unless a firm had some additional incentive for fuel saving, it would find no great encouragement to embark on capital expenditure, fuel being such a comparatively small part of its general set-up.
    What can we do? I will throw out a suggestion to the Chancellor, if he is considering something like a loan. It is that he might be prepared to consider providing an interest-free loan over a considerable period for the provision of fuel-saving equipment. Eventually the loan would have to be repaid. That would have two advantages. My right hon. Friend would not unbalance his budget—no Chancellor can be expected to do that—and he would get immediately a big increase in the installation of fuel-economy equipment.
    The installation of fuel-economy equipment, even though it takes time, may save over a period of even a few years 8 million or 9 million tons of coal a year. But we must have the original incentive, and if we had a real loan on which interest in the first instance was not paid, even if it were carried over a long period and would have to be paid later on, we would have the original incentive. We all aim at that original incentive. I believe that we can provide an alternative which would be easier than a 100 per cent. additional allowance and one which would have a quicker effect upon the installation of fuel economy equipment.
    Mr. Crosland: If the hon. Member will allow me to intervene—and I am trying to keep the maximum amount of agreement on this topic—I believe that I am right in saying that his proposal, as opposed to the 100 per cent. initial allowance, was a loan which eventually would be repaid and might be only for one or two years. But in fact a 100 per cent. initial allowance of the kind that we propose is very like what the hon. Member described, because in the case of an individual firm it comes to be repaid after a period of years which may not be very much longer than the period which the hon. Member has in mind.
    Sir V. Raikes: I do not think that there is very much difference between the point of view of the hon. Member and myself on that, but I think that the suggestion which I cast out might make it rather easier from the point of view of the Chancellor balancing his Budget over the next year or two.
    Mr. Albu: I am sorry that I was not in the Chamber to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) and the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), but I want to say a few words in support of the Amendment. Perhaps I should declare a very small interest in that the only company of which I am a director, and I have no other interest at all, makes water-softening equipment and steam accumulators.
    After the discussions which we have had about discriminatory initial allowances, I find it very welcome that we should continue to receive so much support from hon. Members on the other side of the Committee, particularly the hon. Member for Kidderminster, for these extreme forms of discrimination. But I think that we all recognise that, whatever our view about discriminatory initial allowances in general, these are of a somewhat different nature. Having said what they have had to say about the use of discriminatory initial allowances and having expressed their opposition to these views, I hope that the Government and the Chancellor will feel that this is really in a different category.
    As the hon. Member for Garston (Sir V. Raikes) said, the conservation of our fuel resources is absolutely vital to us. The initial allowances for which we are

    871
    pressing are much of the nature of those granted, for instance, in the case of agriculture. They arise out of exactly the same economic circumstances and out of the radically changed economic conditions of this country in which we no longer find ourselves able to squander cheap food, cheap coal, cheap fuel and raw materials. Now, for the first time in our industrial lives, we find these things very much more difficult to come by. If the free forces of economic laws were to operate, the price of many of them would be very much higher indeed.
    At present—and it was certainly so at the prices ruling before the war—to the very great majority of industries in this country, other than those which use coal almost as a raw material, like the iron and steel industry, the cost of fuel is negligible. Some of us who have had experience of running factories took a great deal of trouble to carry out some of the ideas which are put forward in this proposed Schedule. I do not know that from the purely economic view of our companies it was worth all that effort when we could buy the best quality steam raising coal in the London area for about 30s. a ton, and even at the prices today I do not suppose that, compared with other raw materials, it is really of great importance.
    Therefore, we really need some drastic concession if we are to get anything done at all. I should have thought that if the concession were given in this extreme form with the sort of Government propaganda and general pressure exercised by the Ministry of Fuel and Power and the Fuel Efficiency Service, the job would be found to be rather easier. We are not ever going back to cheap food or cheap coal or cheap raw materials of this kind. The terms of trade have changed not only between other countries and ourselves but within the industries in the country, and the country has not awakened to that fact.
    Something is really needed. I am not sure that I do not support the views of one of my hon. Friends who suggested that some sort of tax ought to be put on coal. This suggestion shocks everybody who hears it for the first time, until one is reminded that British coal is the cheapest in Europe and indeed in the world, except the United States. We must
    872
    do something fairly soon, and I am hoping that the presence of a very powerful Treasury Bench tonight means that some really substantial concession is going to be made.
    Mr. C. J. M. Alport: I think it was the late Marquess of Salisbury who, when he was Prime Minister, confessed that he always spoke of the Treasury with respect. I am sure that my right hon. Friend can have no complaint this evening about the terms of respect in which he and his Department have been addressed by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, and I hope that I shall in no way fall short of the admirable example which they have set me and the august advice which they have followed.
    I should also like to take this opportunity of supporting the plea put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and doing so, perhaps, in somewhat more urgent terms than he did. Over a very long period of time the importance of this aspect of our policy has been stressed by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. It is really a source of great anxiety to find how slow the progress has been, not during the last two years but over a much longer period, in achieving anything which produces practical results in the realm of increased fuel efficiency.
    The Committee have been told tonight of the comparatively small effect of the loan of £1 million announced last year, and the reason for that has been stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster. But surely it is even more urgent at the present time that a policy should be followed which will be effective, whereas the previous policy has been shown to be ineffective. All that the Committee has to decide or is asked to consider by this Amendment is whether the proposal put forward by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) would be more effective than the existing policy. I should say that the evidence is against it.
    This is not only a question of the administrative difficulties which arise owing to the breaking of the rule against discrimination followed by the Inland Revenue. The truth is that some of the most efficacious means of saving fuel will necessarily be left out if the proposed

    873
    Amendment is accepted. The insulation of buildings is of vital importance. I should have thought that it was not only the most effective but the most economical way of saving fuel, but I think I am right in saying that it would not be covered by the Amendment or the Schedule.
    Mr. Crosland: In fact, that is mentioned as one of the six items in the Schedule.
    10.0 p.m.
    Mr. Alport: I am sorry. I looked at the Schedule rather quickly and I missed it. I should think that the suggestions which have been put forward, based upon the Report of the Ridley Committee, offer a more practical way of dealing with this matter, and we have to deal with it in practical terms if we are to assist industry to make the necessary changes.
    I am doubtful whether the financial incentive is the only element which should be considered by the Chancellor. It is equally important that there should be a drive on the part of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power to publicise and bring home to industry generally the availability of this loan, and also to show what may be done by industry itself, without a loan, to improve its methods. As far as I can interpret the position at the present time, the prospect of the next 12 months is extremely grim.
    To regard this merely as a question of what is the best bait to be put before industrialists to encourage them to take advantage of a loan to improve their plant and their fuel efficiency equipment does not give the sense of urgency which is necessary. It may be that we shall get through for a year or two years, but I am quite certain that Nemesis will fall upon us in due course, and that the Exchequer will face a much greater loss as a result of the dislocation of industry owing to the lack of sufficient coal to meet our requirements than it will as a result of improving our existing industrial plant in order to save coal.
    In whatever answer the Chancellor proposes to give I urge him to accept that we have put forward these views—not actually in support of this Amendment but in support of the general principle which is the real issue before us at the
    874
    moment—to emphasise the need for urgent action in tackling this subject upon which, in my view, our whole economic future depends.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The case for the principle involved in this Amendment has been so powerfully and ably put from different sides of the Committee that I do not need to detain them for any length of time; but I thought I should say something about my personal attitude to this Amendment in view of the fact that, as the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) pointed out, we did resist a somewhat similar Amendment in 1951. It was not without a good deal of thought that I decided, this year, to support and to do everything I could to assist this Amendment.
    I came to that conclusion because I think that the coal situation is a great deal more serious than it was in 1951. I am not seeking to make any sort of political point; I am only too anxious to keep the Committee united so that we may get the Government to agree, but I think we are all worried because, in the last two years, coal output has been increasing only to a very small extent.
    The increase in 1952 was very slight and the hon. Member for Kidderminster has mentioned how small it has been in the first 20 weeks of this year. We also realise that we have been saved from a very difficult situation in the last 18 months only by the fact that, because of the relative slow-down in industrial output, consumption has not been rising. Secondly, the Ridley Committee investigated this matter, in particular, in great detail, and I need not add to the quotations already made from their Report.
    Thirdly, the major argument with which we resisted this Amendment in 1951 no longer applies. My right hon. Friend, who was then Economic Secretary, defended our refusal by saying that the needs of the defence programme were such that we could not afford to take the risk of a concession of this kind, which might lead to a lot of other concessions. I say frankly to the Chancellor and the Committee—and they will not be surprised to hear it—that I do not mind very much if he finds it difficult to hold the line here. I have argued on an earlier Amendment that we ought to have a higher rate of initial allowances

    875
    generally and my right hon. and hon. Friends have argued the principle of discrimination.
    It would not be disastrous if, having accepted something like this Amendment this year, the Chancellor was pressed on behalf of other industries or appliances in a future year. The whole investment situation has altered. For all those reasons I think we are justified in adopting the line we adopt this year. The case is very strong, and I need say no more about it.
    There is a particularly good argument for discrimination in this case because in the Ministry of Fuel and Power we have a great deal of technical experience in this field. All parties have paid tribute to the work of the Ministry's fuel efficiency services, and I do not think it has ever been suggested that they were incapable of carrying out the kind of investigation which would be necessary to decide whether the certificate or whatever document was necessary should be given. There is some 10 years' experience of intensive work on this subject, and while the Treasury might reasonably be anxious about a proposal within the Civil Service where there was no great expert knowledge, in this case there is expert knowledge, which seems to me to make their position a good deal more secure.
    Colonel Ralph Clarke: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it might be worked on the lines of the agricultural committees, to whom application is made for a grant for drainage or reclamation of land? It is worked on the principle of the work which has been done and not on any hard and fast lines.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I would be content to leave to the Minister the exact way in which he proposes to organise a proposal of this kind, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion is an interesting one.
    The Amendment is drawn in fairly wide terms. I do not think the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) read it as carefully as he might have done, because it does not limit the appliances or the improvements to the six specific items in the Schedule. They are merely items which are included. I should have thought that the Amendment was so
    876
    widely drawn as to give the Ministry a very free hand in deciding.
    We might have inserted words to the effect that only if there was a definite saving in fuel as compared with the previous situation would the initial allowance on this scale be granted. We deliberately decided not to do that because we felt that it would be very unfair to firms who were relatively efficient and replacing equipment with efficient equipment. The test, we felt, could only be, is this in the circumstances the best way of economising fuel? As I have said already, I should be content to leave the Ministry to settle that particular issue.
    There are just two other things. First, I believe that if this Amendment, or something on these lines, were accepted it ought to be possible to give considerable psychological assistance to the fuel economy drive. It would become known that here was an opportunity of writing off the whole of this equipment in one year. I think we could leave the Ministry and the firms producing this type of equipment to see that their customers knew all about that.
    That brings me to the last point. I do not think that any of us has suggested that this is the only thing to be done. I have not contemplated that the Fuel Advisory Services, whether administered by the Ministry or by industry, would pack up. On the contrary, they clearly must go on. What, I think, we are generally agreed about is that on their own the advisory services are not as effective as they ought to be.
    I want to emphasise that a great deal of good work has been done. I do not take the gloomy view that one or two hon. Members have, implying that we have not done anything at all. The loans scheme has broken down; it has not been successful; it was worth trying, but, obviously, it is not catching on at all. But, steadily, over the years, a great deal of excellent work has been done. It is a question of giving that excellent work something additional, and that something additional must be an incentive to the industrialists to introduce fuel economy equipment.
    For all these reasons, therefore, I very much hope that the Chancellor, or the Minister of Fuel and Power, whoever is to reply to the debate, will be forthcoming. We all attach a great deal of

    877
    importance to this. We are seriously worried about the coal situation, both immediately and in the longer term. We all know that, despite what has been done, our record in the use of fuel is not a good one as compared with that of a number of other countries, and I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that there is an overwhelmingly strong case for this proposal and urge him to give us at least the substance of what we want.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I hope that we may, if my answer proves reasonably constructive, come to the end of this particular discussion, as we have one or two more Amendments on the same type of subject, one discussion following another, and I do not want to keep the Committee sitting late, although I am keen to get Clause 14. That, I think, after one whole day, is reasonable. It means that if we cannot come to a decision on this matter now we shall have to sit a bit longer to get Clause 14, and I do not want to cause anybody any inconvenience. We can get this Clause tonight quite easily if we get on with the business.
    On this particular matter, first I should like to agree with all who have mentioned the vital importance of fuel saving. I shall not go into detail about the production of coal, but, of course, from my point of view and that of everybody else, the more coal we produce the better. Actually, we are to some extent keeping level in that we can keep pace with the inroads made by the various holidays already taken or to be taken; but there is a lot to make up and still a lot to be done, and, therefore, fuel saving is of vital importance.
    I think it must be a great feeling for my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) to have carried the torch so far, and I only hope that my faltering steps are adequate after his great run, which has now been carried on for many Sessions and many moons. At any rate, if I prove incompetent the Minister of Fuel and Power is here, and the Parliamentary Secretary, flanked on either side by Treasury Ministers who are all present, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour is also present, which indicates the importance which the Government attach to this subject.
    878
    10.15 p.m.
    The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland), in one of his notable orations, compared this subject with agriculture, but I am not aware that any request has been made for 100 per cent. initial allowances for agriculture, either by hon. Members opposite or by hon. Members on this side of the Committee. In fact, no such proposal has been made. One of the main objections that we have to this proposal as drafted by the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends is that it does not seem to us to be very well drafted, or a good Amendment to achieve the object he has in view.
    I will not weary the Committee by going into details, but there is a definite mistake I think about Section 276, which should be Section 279. In regard to this Schedule, I have now grasped that the list is not meant to be comprehensive and that it can be very much wider. I cannot therefore quite see what exact purpose the Schedule would serve if there is to be a discretionary power over and above it. I think that in both these respects the Amendment is defective. Quite apart from its content, I do not think it would serve the purpose the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends wish to achieve.
    What I think is most difficult is raised by the question of agriculture, to which the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South referred, and a great many other industries too. We have spent the greater part of today trying to avoid discrepancies between the obvious needs of a variety of industries, and, important as this class of plant is, I am frankly quite satisfied, having examined the type of plant that it is, that this method of the 100 per cent. allowance is not the best method of dealing with it.
    So I come back to an interchange which took place, during the short period when the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) happened, I think, to be out of the Chamber for a moment, between his hon. Friend the Member of Gloucestershire, South and my hon. Friend the Member for Garston (Sir V. Raikes) on the subject of alternative methods. My hon. Friend, together with my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster, had put the suggestion that some effort could be made to improve upon the

    879
    existing loan system. Indeed, the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South referred to the existing loan system as being so far unsatisfactory, and I agree that, despite the efforts of my right hon. Friend, very little of the £1 million has 8o far been taken up.
    In view of the position that the Government have taken up on the allowances up to date, and in view of the fact that something should be done to improve a system already introduced, it seems to me that we should immediately make some modifications in the method of allotting the loans for this vital purpose, because I believe it is lack of capital readily available that is behind the difficulty these firms experience. We have decided, therefore, on certain very important modifications.
    First, we propose to extend the categories of equipment which are eligible for assistance under the loans originally introduced by my right hon. Friend. I will, for the benefit of industry, give some description before I sit down of how further details can be ascertained from my right hon. Friend's Department. Secondly, we have decided to increase the period during which the loans are repayable to the life of the equipment—for taxation purposes that is—up to a maximum of 20 years. I want to see how that will work out and to examine its method of application and what success it has. Thirdly, we have decided—and this fits in with some points of view put forward already in examinations which have been made into this subject, and no doubt will be examined carefully when hon. Members have the Pilkington Report before them in due course, as introduced by my right hon. Friend—that we must deal with this question of the interest rate on loans. I will go further than my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and say that we have decided, not only to make these loans interest free for the first year but for the first two years after the equipment has been installed. This interest-free period should, I think, allow ample time for the equipment to be fully tried out and prove its worth.
    That is, I think, an improvement upon the system already operating, and, from the point of view of the Government—
    880
    and if I am not mistaken, from the interchange which has already taken place between the two sides of the Committee, it is a device which in some respects resembles what hon. Members opposite desire to achieve, although it is not the same proposal—it is, I think, a definite advance which I would recommend to the Committee.
    For those who want to obtain details, I would say this: A leaflet giving full details will be available shortly from the Ministry of Fuel and Power headquarters and from its regional offices. That will give some idea of the categories of equipment eligible for loan. We intend to simplify the formalities under which these loans shall be available. We intend to make clear that building licences will be necessary, but will be easily obtainable, and we intend that the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation, Ltd., shall deal with the financial transactions involved.
    I really believe that if industry in general—and we do not exclude any branch of industry which wishes to install equipment for these vital purposes— accepts this in the spirit in which it is given, it is better for the Committee to accept this device or improvement upon the existing practice on this subject, and to accept from me that if there is no satisfactory development, or if it does not work, the Government must be asked to look at this matter again. I hope that a fair run will be given to this proposal.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am very sorry to say that I find the Chancellor's reply rather disappointing. No doubt he has thought deeply about this and, of course, it is better to do something in this direction than nothing at all, but I think that there still remain some important advantages for the principle of the proposal in the Amendment as compared with what he is now putting forward.
    In the first place, if I may go back to our earlier discussion, it is clear that whether or not initial allowances are an interest-free loan, they are certainly interest free, and completely interest free, so, obviously, they have an advantage from the point of view of the industrialist as compared with having to borrow and merely get an interest-free period for two years.

    881
    In the second place, the initial allowance, as pointed out in an earlier Amendment, is something which is, in fact, only repayable if the firm is making a profit and, therefore, there is a far greater attraction to the industrialist to introduce fuel economy appliances with the help of an initial allowance because he knows that if the worst comes to the worst and he does very badly, then he will not have to repay.
    I do not feel that what the Chancellor has suggested meets the case. I very much doubt if the changes which he is to make—better than nothing though they are—will really meet this position,
    or that from what he has said he fully recognises the extreme seriousness of the position. I cannot help feeling that he is resisting this case because he is too frightened of the principle of discrimination in initial allowances, and we cannot accept that he is justified in taking such a strong line in opposition. In all the circumstances, I feel that we are bound to divide the Committee on our Amendment.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 236.

    Division No. 188.]

    AYES

    [10.26 p.m.

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Fienburgh, W.

    Mclnnes, J.

    Adams, Richard

    Finch, H. J.

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Albu, A H.

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    McLeavy, F.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Follick, M.

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Foot, M. M.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

    Forman, J. C.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Manuel, A. C.

    Balfour, A.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Bartley, P.

    Glanville, James

    Mason, Roy

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Gooch, E. G.

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Bence, C. R.

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Beswick, F.

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Blackburn, F.

    Grey, C. F.

    Monslow, W.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Moody, A. S.

    Boardman, H.

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Morley, R.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Hannan, W.

    Mort, D. L.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Moyle, A.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Hastings, S.

    Nally, W.

    Burke, W. A.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Noel, Harold (Bolsover)

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Callaghan, L. J.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Orbach, M.

    Carmichael, J.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Oswald, T.

    Champion, A. J.

    Holman, P.

    Paget, R. T.

    Chetwynd, G R.

    Hoy, J. H.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Clunie, J.

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Coldrick, W.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Collick, P. H.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Pannell, Charles

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Cove, W. G.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Parker, J.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Pearson, A.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Peart, T. F.

    Crossman, R. H. S

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Popplewell, E.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Daines, P.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Rankin, John

    Deer, G.

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Reeves, J.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Keenan, W.

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Kenyon, C.

    Reid, William (Camlachie)

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Rhodes, H.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Ede, Rt Hon J. C.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Edelman, M.

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Edwards, John (Brighouse)

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Ross, William

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Royle, C.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Logan, D. G.

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Fernyhough, E.

    MoGovern, J.

    Short, E. W.

    Silver man, Julius (Erdington)

    Sylvester, G O.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    William, David (Neath)

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

    Slater, Mrs. (Stoke, N.)

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Williams, W. R. (Droylesden)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Thornton, E.

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Snow, J. W.

    Timmons, J.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Tomney, F.

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Stole, T.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Weitzman, D.

    Yates, V. F.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    West, D. G.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Swingler, S. T.

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Mr. Bowden and Mr. Holmes.

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Fort, R.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Gammans, L. D.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. lam (Enfield, W.)

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Macmilian, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Godber, J. B.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Banks, Col. C.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Mailland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Barber, Anthony

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Gower, H. R.

    Marples, A. E.

    Baxter, A. B.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Grimond, J.

    Maude, Angus

    Bell Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Maudling, R.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C

    Bennett, William (Westside)

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Medlicott, Brig, F.

    Birch, Nigel

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Mellor, Sir John

    Bishop, F. P.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Black, C. W.

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Moore, LI.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Ransom Sir. A. C.

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Bowen, E. R.

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Heath, Edward

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow W)

    Hill Charles (Luton)

    Nicolson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-col. W. H.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Hirst, Geoffery

    Neild, Basil (Chester)

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Holland-Martin, G. J.

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Browne, Jack (Govan)

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Nutting, Anthony

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T

    Holt, A. F.

    Oashott, H. D.

    Bullard, D. G.

    Hope, Lord John

    Odey, G. W.

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Hendy

    O'Neill, Phelim (co. Antrim, N.)

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Horobin, I. M.

    Ormsby-gore, Hon. W. D.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Camphell, Sir David

    Hudson, W. R. A. (hull, N.)

    Osbourne, C.

    Carr, Robert

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Partridge, E.

    Cary, Sir. Robert

    Hurd, A. R.

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Channon, H.

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (llford, N.)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (Eb'rgh W.)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Cole, Norman

    Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M

    Colgate, W. A.

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Craddock, Beresfield (Spelthorne)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Joyson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. L.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Kaberry, D.

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Crookshank, Capt. R. Hon H. F. C.

    Keeling, Sir Edward

    Rees-Davis, W. R.

    Crosthwane-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Crouch, R. F.

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip-Northwood)

    Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

    Robertson, Sir David

    Deedes, W. F.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool S.)

    Digby, S. Wingfield

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (petersfield)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon, G. (King's Norton)

    Russell, R S.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Sailer, Rt Hon. Sir Arthur

    Drayson, G. B.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

    Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Scott, R. Donald

    Erroll, F. J.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Shepherd, William

    Fell, A.

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Fisher, Nigel

    McAdden, S. J.

    Snadden, W. McN.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    McCallum, Major D.

    Soames, Capt. C

    884

    885

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Speir, R. M.

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Spent, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Stevens, G. P.

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Watkinson, H. A.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Thorneyorolt, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Well wood, W.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Storay, S.

    Tilney, John

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S,)

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Turton, R. H.

    Wills, G.

    Summers, G. S.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Vosper, D. F.

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Wade, D. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Mr. Studholme and Mr. Redmayne.

    10.30 p.m.
    Mr. Mulley: I beg to move, in page 9, line 28, after "shall", to insert:
    "(save as in the next following subsection provided)",
    coupling with it the consequential Amendment to page 9, line 37.
    The Chairman: There is a slight alteration. I think I have not told the hon. Gentleman that we have altered the procedure, so perhaps he would move the Amendment to line 37 instead of one he is moving.
    Mr. Mulley: I beg to move, in page 9, line 37, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) The last preceding subsection shall not apply to expenditure on brick-making machinery or plant."
    The purpose of this Amendment is to provide an initial allowance for brickmaking plant and machinery at 40 per cent. instead of the 20 per cent. proposed in the Bill. While, after our discussion of the previous Amendment, I cannot expect to have a too sympathetic response from the Chancellor, I point out that in this case there is no loan system in existence. While it may also be the case that the drafting of this Amendment is not up to the professional standard of Treasury draftsmen, I hope that that will not preclude the Chancellor from accepting it and having it re-drafted for the Report stage. I hope that we are getting towards the end of our deliberations for tonight and I suggest that the Chancellor's acceptance of the Amendment would be a very happy point at which to conclude.
    I would point out to the Chancellor the importance of this Amendment to the Government's housing programme, a matter on which the party opposite laid great stress in speeches in the country last year. The nature of the problem facing the building industry can be realised from the figures of brick pro-
    886
    duction. In 1938, the total brick production was 7,800 million. In 1950, it was only 6,000 million and last year it was 6,600 million bricks. Production in the first few months of this year has been at the annual rate of 6,800 million bricks. This is 15 per cent. below the target set in 1950 by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), who was then the responsible Minister.
    Hon. Members in all parts of the Committee will have read with alarm the statistics of brick production in April. The number produced was 570 million. But a more alarming feature is the present stock of bricks. The stock at the end of April was less than it has been since the war. There were only 96 million in stock, which is rather less than four days' production. The housing programme is liable to be held up in all parts of the country because there is only that number of bricks in stock. It is a most serious situation. An additional burden is added to our foreign exchange problems because of the necessity to import Belgian bricks, which cost hard foreign currency. The cost of those bricks also adds substantially to the cost of housing and other building projects.
    As the Economic Secretary to the Treasury will know, brick production in this country is largely divided between the Fletton area and other areas. The undertakings in the Fletton area, round Peterborough and Bletchley, are very large undertakings. They belong mainly to the London Brick Company and have the advantage of large-scale production and of mechanical handling which would delight my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) with its extreme efficiency.
    In contrast, the firms in the "non-Fletton" areas are very small. They have great financial difficulties and I think that it is conceded by the experts that if we want a substantial increase

    887
    in brick production it must come from these small firms. The problem was considered in detail by the Labour Government and some special financial arrangements were made with the Bank of England and the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation. Steps were also taken to improve the labour position. Although there has been an encouraging increase in production since the war, nevertheless, it is by no means sufficient to meet our requirements.
    The position is best summed up in a quotation from the "British Clay-worker" which, last year, said:
    "We must say that we have been astonished all along at the naiveness with which the Government has handled the question of brick production for an expanding housing programme. Since they do not grow on trees, bricks have to be made. Now, can it seriously be expected that today, thirteen years after 1939, there can be much in the way of capital assets lying about idle in the industry? Of course there is not. Any plant which can make bricks at a marketable price has been put to work long ago. Further brick output can, therefore, only come from the investment of capital in new works and re-equipment."
    I raised this subject on the Adjournment in March of last year, and I ventured to put it to the Minister of Works, who I am sorry is not in his place, that there should be a committee or some form of investigation, into the capital needs of the brick-making industry. The Minister, in his reply was forthright, for he said:
    "We do not need a committee to look into this question. That is rather the kind of method which our predecessors used—I will not say to shift responsibility, but to deal with these things. My opinion is that the Ministers responsible for these industries should do the thing themselves, and if they do not do it properly they will have to be got rid of. That is the proper way to run the country, and not by committees."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1952, Vol. 497. c. 1892.]
    I am wondering whether the right hon. Gentleman sometimes reflects on those words, or reflects on the brick shortages in all parts of this country, when his right hon. Friend the Chancellor sets up another committee to deal with a particular problem. I am tempted to ask what is his view when he hears of the Royal Commission on Taxation and Profits, and of the Government deciding to take their view rather than that the Government should take a decision itself.
    888
    Steps have to be taken to expand brick production. It may well be argued that initial allowances would not be a very effective method for the purpose I have in mind, but perhaps I might quote again from the "British Clayworker ", which is the journal of the industry. Referring to the proposals in the Budget last year, it stated:
    "If the 40 per cent. initial allowance on new equipment is terminated this spring, then we must say that we cannot see how even the giants of the industry—the Fletton firms—will be able to do much more to increase output. The end of the 40 per cent. allowance can only mean the end of extensions or modernisation, even for them. For the smaller private firms, the continuance of the 40 per cent. alone will not be enough."
    I agree that it is unwise to make extravagant claims for what initial allowances alone will do, but I would remind the Chancellor that there are no loans in this industry such as there are for fuel-saving equipment; and whether the initial allowances will solve the problem or not, there is no doubt at all that if they do not succeed in securing further investment the cost to the Treasury will be very little. So, the Treasury is in the happy position of having the initial allowances succeed and stimulating investment, or losing very little taxation as a consequence.
    The situation is more serious today because the Excess Profits Levy hit this industry very hard; it hit the brick companies which took a long time to get going after the war, and unless something is done, the position will become very difficult indeed. The latest figures available —those at the end of April—show that we have less than four days' supply in hand. That is the lowest stock position since the war and it is a most serious situation. The Government has been warned by the industry, the trade unions and, if I may with modesty say so, by myself in the Adjournment debate to which I have referred. I realise that there are many other considerations for the Government's time, but too little attention has been given to this subject, and the time is ripe for the modest contribution of help which the Amendment suggests.
    10.45 p.m.
    The "British Clayworker" also said:
    "It is not particularly relevant to the case whether we reach the 300,000 house target in 1952 or 1953 or later. The important point is that an efficient, modernised brick and tile industry is essential to the country for the simple reason that without it we can never

    889
    solve the housing problem economically. If the housing problem is to be solved at all plans for expansion of output of the necessary materials must be laid well in advance. Now will be none too soon."
    That was a year ago.
    I am sorry that the Minister of Works is not here. I did not give him notice of this, because I imagined that on this subject he would be present in any case. He should recall his words, and if he will not set up a committee and do the job himself we must act in accordance with the precept that he laid down and get rid of him. We must have some consideration for the building materials industries, not only for housing but for the factory building programme and the school-building programme. In fact, the whole of our social and economic objectives are involved in this problem.
    Also, we shall save foreign currency. We shall increase productivity, because one of the biggest needs of the brick-making industry is further mechanisation to save labour. Again—and this might appeal to the Economic Secretary— many of the appliances would also save fuel. They are not covered, as I understand it, by the loan system that was announced in response to the previous Amendment. It may be that when we get details there will be some small concession in that direction. I believe that this is a modest Amendment which will cost very little. Certainly, it will cost nothing if it does not fulfil the objective we have in mind. I therefore say to the Economic Secretary that this is the right time and the right hour of night to come forward and accept this proposal.
    Mr. Maudling: I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of the brick-making industry. I must say that I was somewhat touched by his concern over the Government's housing programme, and we much appreciate his interest in it.
    Mr. Mulley: Could I just make that point clear? What we on this side want to see is as many houses built as possible.
    Mr. Maudling: Yes, of course. That was obvious. I know that perfectly well.
    While the hon. Member's argument, with which I entirely agree, demonstrated that it is an important industry and that in the national interest its output should
    890
    be expanded, I do not think he brought forward any convincing argument to show why the granting of a special rate of initial allowances to this industry should be the method to be adopted for expanding its output. I dare say it is true to say that whatever importance we attribute to initial allowances as a means of stimulating output and production, they are relatively slow-working methods, and I do not think they would have any relation to any short-term process or any short-term shortages in the brick industry.
    As the Committee is aware, on an earlier Amendment we discussed the question of principle as to whether there should be discrimination between one industry and another in the initial allowances for plant and machinery, or building for that matter. On a Division the Committee accepted the Government's view that in principle discrimination was not the right method by which to proceed in this matter of initial allowances. I therefore listened to hear whether the hon. Gentleman brought forward any argument in support of his case which put the brick industry in a totally different position from the general range of industries, and I must say that I do not think he did.
    It is perfectly true that it is an important industry; it is important to the social life of the community, to the economy, and from the point of view of saving possible foreign exchange on imported bricks. But that can be said for a very large number of industries which are of equal importance to our eonomy. The shipbuilding industry, of which we have heard a great deal this evening, is one example. I do not think the hon. Gentleman has put forward a case for giving special consideration to the brick industry, and I fear that the Government must maintain the attitude already adopted in opposing discrimination in the matter of initial allowances.
    Mr. C. W. Gibson: I do not think that the Economic Secretary has given us good reasons for rejecting this Amendment. It is quite true that the Committee have rejected an Amendment which provided for discrimination in certain industries, but this is an industry fundamental to the social health of the country. If we do not get enough

    891
    bricks we shall not only fail to build enough houses but we shall not build enough factories; indeed, we are not building them. I should have thought that this was one industry towards which the Government might have been a little more sympathetic.
    It is not as if the Government have not been warned. I myself have called attention on several occasions to the shortage of bricks in the Midlands, and I know that there have been high level conferences in that part of the country to consider what can be done about the situation. Today, at Question time, there were two other places mentioned. The shortage of bricks in South Wales and in the Rugby area was raised in Questions to the Minister of Works. It is obvious to those who follow the industry carefully that in spite of the boasting of the Government speakers and of the efforts of the newspapers, there really is a serious shortage of bricks.
    Mr. Harmar Nicholls: I do not want to comment on the argument for increased initial allowances, but the hon. Gentleman is ignoring the fact that over the last 18 months there has been an increase of between 10 and 15 per cent. in the production of bricks. In pursuing the argument for an increased initial allowance it should not be said that there has been a falling off in the production of bricks when, in fact, there has been a considerable increase.
    Mr. Gibson: I have not said that. It is true that during the past year there has been an overall increase in the total number of bricks produced, but we are still a long way from the number of bricks produced before the war, and the situation is bound to reflect itself in a hold-up in various sections of the building industry. I believe it would have shown itself in house building by this time if it had not been for the policy of concentration on house building, and particularly on smaller houses, which the Government have been following.
    If we are to get these additional bricks for the building industry in all its aspects, we must do something to encourage the greater output of bricks. I do not think we can find any better way of increasing the output of bricks than by encouraging
    892
    the use of machinery. The old days of brick making by hand have gone, and today if we want large output we must use the latest type of machinery for getting the clay and moulding the bricks in very large numbers.
    I have no particular reason personally to support the manufacturers in the industry because they have given me a lot of trouble in my trade union activities in the past, but if some assistance can be afforded to them to enable them to produce larger quantities by means of using new machinery, I suggest it ought to be provided.
    I would remind the Committee that within the last day or two the President of the National Federation of Building Employers has been talking on this subject and has said that the supply of bricks is getting to a dangerously low position, and he has pointed out that the stocks are actually less now than they have been at any time since the war.
    We want to see many houses built. If the Tories can build them I say, "Good luck to them." What I criticise is their practice of building smaller houses with fewer appointments than we had been putting into them. If the provision of this slight financial assistance could produce more bricks, and, consequently, more houses, I would not grumble, because tens of thousands of people in whom I am personally interested would get houses more quickly. Therefore, I say that there is a special case for considering giving this industry special treatment in the way of financial inducement to introduce the utmost possible machinery. Expert evidence goes to prove that the introduction of modern plant will considerably increase the efficiency of the industry, which, I admit, is very efficient in parts; it will also increase output per man.
    Speaking as a member of the union to which most of the men concerned belong, I would say that we would welcome anything which would increase overall efficiency and output per man. I hope that the Government will have second thoughts, and will agree to do something on the lines of the Amendment.
    Mr. Gaitskell: When my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) moved this Amendment I had

    893
    an open mind on the subject. I was prepared to hear what the Government had to say, thinking that perhaps there might be facts available to it which were not available to us which might throw some doubt on the Amendment. The Economic Secretary, who is usually so forthcoming, gave us a perfunctory reply. I know that the hour is late, but my hon. Friend put his case fully, with some detail, and the Economic Secretary has really said nothing, except that it has already been decided not to have discrimination, and, therefore, there cannot be discrimination in this case.
    What we decided was that there would not be a system of discrimination, but we did not decide then, if I may say so, that in no circumstances would any particular industry be given special treatment. That
    argument was not used in the case of fuel economy, and I do not consider it appropriate in the case of bricks. I consider it discourteous of the Minister of Works not to put in an appearance on this Amendment. The Parliamentary Secretary has come in, but he might have been here earlier, as the matter concerns his Ministry intimately.
    Although we have no desire to detain the Committee unduly I would suggest to my hon. Friends that we should register our protest against the wholly inadequate Government reply, and that we should now divide.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 197: Noes. 217.

    Division No 189]

    AYES

    [10.59 p.m

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Foot, M. M.

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Adams, Richard

    Forman, J. C.

    Manuel, A. C.

    Albu, A. H.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Mason, Roy

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Glanville, James

    Mitchison, G. R,

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Monslow, W.

    Balfour, A.

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Bartley, P.

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Morley, R.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Grey, C. F.

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Bence, C. R.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Mort, D. L.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Moyle, A.

    Beswick, F.

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Blackburn, F.

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Nally, W.

    Boardman, H.

    Hannan, W.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon, A. G.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hastings, S.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Hayman, F. H.

    Orbach, M.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

    Oswald, T.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

    Paget, R. T.

    Burke, W. A.

    Herbinson, Miss M.

    Parling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewbury)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Holman, P.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Callaghan, L. J.

    Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Carmichael, J.

    Hoy, J. H.

    Parker, J.

    Champion, A. J.

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Pearson, A.

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Peart, T. F.

    Coldrick, W.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Popplewell, E.

    Collick, P. H.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayshire)

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhougnton)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Price, Phillips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Reeves, J.

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Rhodes, H.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Deer, G.

    Jones, jack (Rotherham)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Jones T W. (Merioneth)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Keenan, W.

    Ross, William

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Kenyon, C.

    Royle, C.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Edwards, John (Brighouse)

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Short, E. W.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Silverman, Julms (Erdington)

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Logan, D. G.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Fernyhough, E.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Fienburgh, W.

    Mclnnes, J.

    Slater, Mrs. (Stoke, N.)

    Finch, H. J.

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Follick, M.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Snow, J. W.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Timmons, J.

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Tomney, F.

    Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

    Steele, T.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Wallace, H. W.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Weilzman, D.

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Swingler, S. T.

    West, D. G.

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Yates, V. F.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Mr. Bowden and

    Thornton, E.

    Williams, Rev. Lywelyn (Abertillery)

    Mr. Kenneth Robinson.

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Marples, A. E.

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Godber, J. B.

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Maude, Angus

    Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

    Gower, H. R.

    Maudling, R.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Mellor, Sir John

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Grimond, J.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Baldwin A. E.

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Banks, Col. C.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Barber, Anthony

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Baxter, A. B.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Bennett, William (Woodside)

    Heath, Edward

    Nutting, Anthony

    Birch, Nigel

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Bishop, F. P.

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    Odey, G. W.

    Black, C. W.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Bossom, Sir A. C.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Bowen, E. R.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hope, Lord John

    Osborne, C.

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Partridge, E.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Horobin, I. M.

    Perkins, W. R. D.

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Pickthorn, K. W. M

    Bullard, D. G.

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Hurd, A. R.

    Price, Hendy (Lewisham, W.)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (llford, N.)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. L.

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'h'rgh W.)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Campbell, Sir David

    Hyllon-Foster, H. B. H.

    Redmayne, M.

    Carr, Robert

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Rees-Davis, W. R.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Channon, H.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

    Kaberry, D.

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Keeling, Sir Edward

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Cole, Norman

    Kerr, H. W.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Colegate, W. A.

    Lambert, Hon G.

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Lancaster, Col C. G.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthome)

    Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

    Russell, R. S.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Legge-Bourke Maj. E. A. H.

    Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Scott, R. Donald

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Shepherd, William

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip-Northwood)

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Lioyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Smithers Peter (Winchester)

    Digby, S. Wingfield

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Snadden, W. McN.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Stevens, G. P.

    Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

    McCallum, Major D.

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Storey, S.

    Erroll, F. J.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Stuart, rt. Hon. James (Morray)

    Fisher, Nigel

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Summers, G. S.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.)

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Ford, Mrs. Patricia

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Fort, R.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Gamer-Evans, E. H.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    896

    897

    Tilney, John

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Ward, Mils I. (Tynemouth)

    Wills, G.

    Turton, R. H.

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Vaughan-Mergan, J. K.

    Watkinson, H. A.

    Vosper, D. F.

    Wellwood, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Mr. Studholme and

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Lieut.-Commander Richard Thompson

    Mr. Harold Wilson: I beg to move, in page 9, line 37, at the end. to insert:
    (3) The last preceding subsection shall not apply to expenditure certified by the Treasury as expenditure on approved overseas development under the provisions of the Schedule (Initial allowances in respect of development in the Scheduled Territories) to this Act and accordingly an initial allowance under the said Chapter II in respect of expenditure so certified shall be equal to two-fifths of that expenditure.
    I do not think I need take the time of the Committee for long on this Amendment, despite its vast importance. Some of the arguments which could be deployed in support of it have already been deployed this evening on the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), particularly in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay). That Amendment was defeated, but, despite that, and although we hope that one of these days the House will come round to the idea of discrimination in taxation for purposes of forwarding and encouraging projects of vital national importance, we still feel it essential to press this Amendment, which deals specifically with overseas investment.
    The purpose of the Amendment is to fix a rate of 40 per cent. for the initial allowances on equipment used on overseas investment, or at least on certain types of overseas investment. I am sure that the whole Committee is in agreement on the need to provide the maximum possible stimulation to development within the Commonwealth. I was encouraged by the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Budget debate. I had asked him what hopes he saw of avoiding serious economic difficulties if there were a recession in the United States, which must come sooner or later.
    In his reply, on 20th April, the right hon. Gentleman said that the one hope he foresaw of avoiding a slump, should that develop, would be a greatly expanded rate of overseas development on the lines of the speech, which he quoted
    898
    of President Eisenhower. I think there will be agreement in the Committee, despite the political views of some hon. Members opposite, that the main task of overseas development has to be done by public investment rather than by private investment.
    We all realise that there will not be much done in the sphere of Commonwealth development unless a vast amount of money is spent by public authorities. or international authorities, on the development of railways, irrigation schemes, drainage schemes, ports, harbours, roads, bridges, etc. We all recognise that this cannot be done by private enterprise and that there has to be public spending to achieve this side of the overseas development. Nevertheless, we do recognise that an important part of the work still falls to private enterprise. In the communique of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, which we debated on 3rd February, I recall that the Commonwealth Prime Ministers placed a very heavy emphasis on private enterprise development within the Commonwealth. Most of us, on this side of the Committee, thought they were pinning far too much faith on that kind of overseas development.
    When we debated the matter that evening, the Chancellor referred to the proposals being examined in the City under the committee then set up and, now, of course, under the new organisation established in the City for the purpose of stimulating private investment in the Commonwealth. Some of us expressed some doubts about it, and felt too much was being expected of private finance in a field where public finance will have to bear the major loans. We readily concede, even if the Government are pinning too much faith on it in this matter, that there will be an important task for private enterprise development in Commonwealth territories. All of us will agree that that development is very difficult and, indeed, very risky. Furthermore, there are some special risks attaching to capital investments in these areas, but I do not need to outline them tonight.

    899
    Reading the Report of the Colonial Development Corporation, which relates to public investment and not to private investment, one notices the difficulties with which they are faced in overseas development, difficulties which also have to be faced by private enterprise developers. One recalls the Report of the Corporation last year, with its strictures on the Chancellor for the effect of the high interest rate on colonial development and pointing out that a rate of profit of 6¾ per cent. is required to cover even the most elementary borrowing charges, this providing nothing for overheads or repayment of capital.
    If it is true of the Colonial Development Corporation, which is in a specially favoured position for borrowing the capital it uses, it becomes obvious that private enterprises, in the task of overseas development, have to achieve a very high rate of profit indeed to make it worth while and to tempt them to divert resources from certain less essential activities in this country to the all-important task of Commonwealth development. Therefore, there is a strong prima facie case for making this simple 40 per cent. concession applicable to overseas development in the same way as the Chancellor has already proposed in respect of mineral development overseas.
    11.15 p.m.
    It would, of course, have been very simple for us to have put down a much more elementary Amendment to cover the point. It would have been possible simply to follow the lines of the Chancellor's concession, and to have said that it should be given for all development within the scheduled territories. In fact, it was tempting to put down such an Amendment, but we felt that it would be wrong because we have to face the fact that not all possible capital expenditure in the Commonwealth is equally important or productive.
    The Chancellor may recall that in the debate on 3rd February some of us pointed out that we were not happy about leaving the job of selecting projects for investment to a committee in the City. We felt the Government should be deciding what to encourage, stimulate, and help. Therefore, it would have been inconsistent, and not in the highest
    900
    interests of Commonwealth development, if we had tabled an Amendment granting this concession to all overseas development.
    There is a fair amount of development going on from this country in less essential projects. One reads a lot about the diversion of capital to Australia for the purposes of building milk bars and icecream bars. We would not suggest a concession for those items. We know it will still be as easy, if not easier, under the new development the Chancellor has encouraged in the City, to build breweries in South Africa as it is railways and irrigation schemes in Africa and Asia.
    That is one of those spheres where very much tighter control is required. Certainly we would not be proposing tonight that the special discriminatory concessions should be extended so that more breweries can be built in South Africa. Therefore, we admit that there must be discrimination within the field of overseas development. That is why we have made the Amendment more complicated, and have provided not merely that the expenditure must be on overseas development within the sterling area, but also that it must be on expenditure certified by the Treasury as expenditure on approved overseas development within the sterling area.
    I hope that the Economic Secretary will get out of the rut he has been in during the last few Amendments, and will give us a different speech. I hope he will say that the Government and the Conservative Party recognise the need for overseas development within the Commonwealth, and intend to do something about it. This Amendment is really a challenge to the Government's sincerity in their oft-proclaimed desire for Commonwealth development. It is a test of their enthusiasm.
    The plain fact is that the Government have done shockingly little since they came to power. They have had a number of conferences, issued a number of communiqués, made many speeches, and done little or nothing, except issue a White Paper on a scheme already started in the Gold Coast. They have done little in the field of public expenditure, and almost nothing about the Colombo Plan. We are distressed at the way the plan has been lagging since its inception.

    901
    The Government have hampered the working of the Colonial Development Corporation by their action on interest rates, and they are leaving private enterprise to do the job in this field. We believe that they are putting too much reliance on private enterprise and are asking it to take a strain beyond that of which it is capable. At least there is, in this Amendment, a chance to help private enterprise to do that job. We believe that private enterprise has a job to do in the Colonial Territories. It may be a limited job, dependent upon public investment, but we believe that the Government will give a lead tonight by accepting the Amendment, enabling private enterprise to get on with the job.
    Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) has moved the Amendment with great care and weight, and I appreciate that it was drafted with great care to cover the point that he made about being consistent in the matter of discrimination between the creditworthiness of various forms of investment, which attitude he would like to adopt in investments abroad as in investments at home. He asked me to say that we recognised the need for development overseas in the Commonwealth; of course we do, as is the constant theme of my right hon. Friends.
    When the right hon. Gentleman was talking about failure to do anything about overseas investment he did not mention the £60 million that we are arranging should be made available through the world bank, which is a rather large contribution. The main function of this country is to provide capital for projects. We are anxious that the overseas territories of the Commonwealth should come forward with projects. Quite a number are being formulated, I believe very substantial ones, now.
    I should be going beyond the bounds of order and beyond the confines of the Treasury if I embarked upon a debate on colonial and Commonwealth development. We are discussing the particular point of the initial allowances. We have already discussed the total amount that the Chancellor can provide for initial allowances, and my right hon. Friend has explained about the 40 per cent. allowance for all plant and machinery, and claims of that kind. We have discussed discrimination between different
    902
    industries and different firms, and I explained on an earlier Amendment the reasons—administration, economy, and so on—why the Government object to the principle of discrimination. Having rejected that principle in the sphere of U.K. investment, we should also reject the principle which is contained in this Amendment.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is not the Chancellor today discriminating in respect of overseas development? Have not we recently had a case where the New Zealand Government asked for special Treasury encouragement to help to provide capital for a scheme to which they attached importance, and did not the Chancellor reply that he could not provide capital because he felt that the scheme was not essential at that time? If he can apply discrimination in that way and in the way he discriminates in the Capital Issues Committee, why cannot he discriminate in respect of certificates for initial allowances?
    Mr. Maudling: The question of the guidance given to the Capital Issues Committee and to the banks was raised by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison). I have endeavoured to explain the quite different principles applying in the case of taxation and credit policy. The main point is that the Government should confine their activities to broad questions of economic policy and not concentrate on discrimination between individual claimants. In the New Zealand case the attitude taken up by my right hon. Friend was that projects must be considered in the light of the principles laid down in the communiqué issued after the Commonwealth Conference.
    I listened with very great care to see on what grounds the right hon. Gentleman based his claim for overseas investments being considered differently from home investments. We considered very seriously the possibility of giving special help in this way to overseas projects, because there is obviously a very strong argument in that direction, but we came to the conclusion, and we still hold that view, that the arguments in the other direction are conclusive. The main reason that the right hon. Gentleman gave for discriminating in favour of overseas investment was the importance of

    903
    overseas development, particularly in the Commonwealth, and the special risks inherent in that kind of development.
    That is true, of course. No one here would write down the importance of the development of the Commonwealth, but surely it is important to develop the resources of this country as well. The position under the Amendment would be that we would give a special allowance to a company developing a mineral in Australia and would not give the same allowance to a similar company in this country.
    It is true that there are many special risks in overseas development, even in the most settled parts of the Commonwealth, but there are also great risks in trying to break into the dollar market with a new line of export. We could not feel that we could give a special discrimination to specialist activities of a risk character overseas when we do not give the same discrimination to economic activities of equal risk and equal value to this country which take place elsewhere. If we did, we would be forced by the logic of the argument to do the same thing not only for those who produce overseas, but for those who sell overseas in competition with others. That would mean that we would have to give a special tax relief to exports, and that would be contrary to our efforts to try to get away from that. We deplore the practice in other countries and it would be wrong if we took those steps ourselves.
    We feel that it would not be possible in practice to justify discrimination in this way in favour of overseas development in the Commonwealth. That is not to detract from the importance of that development but to point out that there are other things of equal importance and that it is not right to discriminate between them in taxation policy. The special mining allowance will be of particular assistance to overseas companies because so many of them are extractive industries. We hope to do something in that way to meet the problem which was raised in the interim report of the Royal Commission.
    While we have seriously considered these matters in the past, we do not feel
    904
    that it would be right or justifiable, attractive though it is, to accept this Amendment and the discrimination that it involves.
    Sir Richard Acland: I am disappointed with the Economic Secretary's speech and I am particularly unimpressed by what he said about the £60 million which we are arranging to make available through the International Bank for development, because arranging to make it available, if it should happen to be required, is very different from actually spending the money. When we discussed the Bill to increase the limits by which the Treasury might arrange to guarantee loans to the Commonwealth from the International Bank it was apparent that only £10 million had been loaned through that bank to all the overseas territories covered by this Amendment, and there was a maximum of only £15 million of such development even on the map. I do not suppose that all the money that we would be lending even if there were——
    The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Hopkin Morris): The hon. Member is right in referring to this matter, but he should not go too far. It is remote from the Amendment.
    Sir R. Acland: It was offered as a reason for resisting the Amendment.
    How much we are doing already for overseas development is one thing; how much we are doing, or might be doing to lend money overseas to help development is a good deal less than what parts of our Commonwealth—and particularly those parts where the poorest people live —are doing to help us by the sterling balances which we hold on their account.
    11.30 p.m.
    I should have thought that the alarming growth of these sterling balances might be used to help development, whereby those other countries would benefit, and the balances run down to more manageable and less alarming proportions. It seems to me that this Amendment is, moreover, a modest contribution to our national independence; or, rather, to the independence of our nation taken in conjunction with overseas countries within the sterling area.

    905
    Whenever one reads, or listens to, any authority speaking on the long-term future of this country vis-a-vis the dollar countries, one finds that the writer or speaker always gets round to the point that it is of first-rate importance for us to develop the raw material resources of our overseas territories. It is that particular point which, I would submit, gives this Amendment urgency and importance and which, I had hoped, would have lifted it out from among that long list of Amendments which the Chancellor has rejected.
    When the Economic Secretary said that he could see nothing in this Amendment which made it any different from those others, I thought he must have forgotten the urgent need for this country to develop alternative sources of materials and food; especially from non-dollar areas. I should have thought that very point would have given encouragement to him. The kind of enterprise which might be developed would not be of that peculiarly risky nature to which the Economic Secretary referred in the closing passages of his remarks.
    Looking at the political aspects and at the economic implications in the widest terms, this country, in the decades ahead, will depend more and more on supplies from our territories overseas, and the major economic conclusion to which we are all forced is that these materials are bound to become more and more expensive. For the individual manufacturer looking at a particular project associated with one particular material, he may well see that the project would pay a fair price if the particular raw material "held up" for some five or six years. He might decide that there was a fair guarantee that it would not "nose-dive," as materials can, and have in the past, leaving him to face losses in the fifth, sixth, or seventh year of his operation; years when there would be particular assistance to an entrepreneur in the increase of the initial allowances which is here proposed.
    For these reasons, I hope that the Government will have second thoughts on this Amendment, and change their mind.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I share the disappointment of my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) at the Economic Secretary's reply. He replied, of course, as he usually does, with great
    906
    courtesy and charm, but he showed no signs of getting out of the rut in which he has found himself for most of this evening, and when he attempted to justify his position by a number of bogus, parallels between initial allowances and dollar exports I thought he got into very deep waters indeed. He mentioned, for instance, that it would be wrong to discriminate between a development which was being carried out at home and a similar development that was being carried out within the Commonwealth. He also mentioned minerals, but minerals are separately dealt with under a proposal of the Chancellor's, and I think it was quite inadmissible to use that argument there.
    The hon. Gentleman then said that if it was important to encourage overseas investments it was also important to encourage dollar exports, and he said there was a special risk in dollar exports, in breaking into that market. Well, that is an argument with which all of us have been familiar in this Committee for four or five years, but I am bound to remind him—although I know he is aware of it—that those who undertake some of the special risks of entering the dollar market are helped and underwritten by the Export Credit Guarantees Department, whereas those who enter on the very risky task of Commonwealth development have no such help, and tonight the hon. Gentleman has a very great opportunity of providing them with at least a small amount of help. I am not suggesting helping exporters as such, as the hon. Gentleman suggested. My hon. Friends and I propose that there should be a special initial allowance to those who are investing equipment abroad within the Commonwealth.
    If what the hon. Gentleman said is the Government's last word—I hope it is not —it casts reflection on the statements of a great many hon. Gentlemen opposite about their claim to be the party interested in Commonwealth development. I should not think there was one hon. Gentleman opposite who, in his last Election address, did not mention his claim to stand up for Empire and for private enterprise. A few of them a little more up to date probably referred to the Commonwealth instead of the Empire in this connection, but every one of them has stood before his constituents as the man who will,

    907
    represent the interest of the Commonwealth and private enterprise.
    Tonight we have a chance of seeing whether they can make those claims good, and I must recommend my hon. Friends—all of whom are genuinely keen on Commonwealth development, not just as something to make speeches about at
    Election time but as something they are prepared to back up with their votes in the Division Lobby—to divide against the Government.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 174; Noes, 202.

    Division No. 190.]

    AYES

    [11.39 p.m.

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Hayman, F. H

    Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

    Adams, Richard

    Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Albu, A. H.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Hobson, C. R.

    Reeves, J.

    Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

    Hohnan, P.

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

    Rhodes, H.

    Bartley, P.

    Hoy, J. H.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Bonce, C. R.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Ross, William

    Beswick, F.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Royle, C.

    Blackburn, F.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

    Bowles, F. G.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Short, E. W.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Sirverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Brockway, A. F.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Callaghan, L. J.

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Slater, Mrs. (Stoke, N.)

    Carmichael, J.

    Keenan, W.

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Champion, A. J.

    Kenyon, C.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Coldrick, W.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Collick, P. H.

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Steele, T.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Logan, D. G.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    MacColl, J. E.

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    MoGhee, H. G.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Mclnnes, J.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Swingler, S. T.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Deer, G.

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Thomas, David (Aberdare)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Manuel, A. C.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Thornton, E.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    Mason, Roy

    Timmons, J.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

    Ferny hough, E.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Weitzman, D.

    Finch, H. J.

    Monslow, W.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    West, D. G.

    Foot, M. M.

    Morley, R.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Forman, J. C.

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Mort, D. L.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Nally, W.

    Williams, Rev. Llyweryn (Abertillery)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Glanville, James

    Oliver, G. H.

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Orbach, M.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

    Oswald, T.

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Grey, C. F.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Pargiter, G. A

    Yates, V. F.

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Parker, J.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Hannan, W.

    Pearson, A.

    Hargreaves, A.

    Peart, T. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Hastings, S.

    Popplewell, E.

    Mr. Bowden and

    Mr. Kenneth Robinson.

    >NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

    Baxter, A. B.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Banks, Col. C.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

    Barber, Anthony

    Bennett, William (Woodside)

    Birch, Nigel

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Bishop, F. P.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Black, C. W.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Partridge, E.

    Bossom, Sir A. C

    Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

    Peto, Brig, C. H. M.

    Bowen, E. R.

    Hope, Lord John

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Horobin, I. M.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig, O. L.

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Bullard, D. G.

    Hurd, A. R.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Word, N.)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Campbell, Sir David

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Carr, Robert

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Channon, H.

    Kaberry, D.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

    Keeling, Sir Edward

    Russell, R. S.

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Kerr, H. W.

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Cole, Norman

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Colegate, W. A.

    Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

    Scott, R. Donald

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Leather E. H. C.

    Shepherd, William

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfiled)

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Stevens, G. P.

    Deedes, W. F.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

    Digby, S. Wingfield

    LOW, A. R. W.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Lucas, P. B. (Brermtford)

    Storey, S.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    McCallum, Major D.

    Stuart, R. Hon. James (Moray)

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Summers, G. S.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

    Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Finaly, Graeme

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Fisher, Nigel

    Macleod, John (Ross and Cromarty)

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Macmillian, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

    Fort, R.

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Thornton Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    Foster, John

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Tilney, John

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

    Marples, A. E.

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Turton, R. H.

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

    Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Maude, Angus

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Maudling, R.

    Vosper, D. F.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Mellor, Sir John

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Gridley, Sir Arnold

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemough)

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Wellwood, W.

    Hare, Hon. J. H.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Williams, Paul (sunderland, S.)

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Wills, G.

    Heald, Sir Lionel

    Nutting, Anthony

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Heath, Edward

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Odey, G. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

    O' Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Mr. Studholme and Mr. Redmayne.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    11.45 p.m.
    Mr. Stevens: I beg to move, in page 10, line 34, at the end, to insert:
    "but after the fifth day of April nineteen hundred and fifty-two."
    The initial allowances were abolished by the Finance Act of 1951, and the appropriate provisions were incorporated in Section 279 (5) of the Income Tax Act, 1952; but there was special provision made in that Section with regard to ships by reason, presumably, of the long time which it takes to construct a ship. The proviso of Section 279 (5) covered ships which, on 10th April, 1951,
    910
    were under construction, or contracts entered into not later than that date. That meant that although the initial allowances were abolished, so far as ships were concerned the time during which initial allowances were, so to speak, alive, continued beyond that of initial allowances on ordinary plant and machinery.
    By reason of the wording of Clause 14 —I think there may have been an error in drafting—it would appear that the special provision covering the cost of ships between 10th April, 1951, and 5th April, 1952, will be abolished, along with

    911
    initial allowances for plant and machinery The words which I am suggesting should be added to line 34 will makes good the allowances in respect of ships already provided for by the Income Tax Act, 1952. I do so on the ground that the Bill seeks to take away something provided by the Finance Act, 1951, and confirmed by the Income Tax Act, 1952.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Our intentions in this matter are exactly the same, and I made the intentions of the Government clear on Second Reading, but it seems that there is a possibility of doubt whether those intention have been completely carried out by the Bill and that the matter is far from clear. I think the best method of making it clear beyond any doubt is to recommend to the Committee that the Amendment be accepted.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Jay: Although it is late we ought not to part with the Clause without looking for a moment at the question of initial allowances for business motor cars. I had an Amendment on the point on the Order Paper, but it was not called. All I want to ask the Government to do now, particularly as the Financial Secretary has melted into such an accommodating mood, is to undertake that they will seriously look at the point before the Report stage, when we will put an Amendment down. I hope they will agree that this is not a party point but is an important issue if the initial allowances are to work satisfactorily.
    When we discussed the allowance and argued it as a necessary concession to industry, I think we all had in mind plant, equipment, machinery, tools, automatic looms, mechanised foundries—the sort of things we read about in productivity reports. It comes, I suspect, as a surprise to some people when they realise that these allowances have been paid on all business motor cars bought by firms for allegedly, and sometimes genuinely, business purposes, but, as we know, partly for private purposes as well. I do not think that that was ever the inten-
    912
    tion of Parliament, but that is how it has worked.
    It has been estimated that quite a large proportion of the new cars sold on the home market have been bought, or nominally and legally bought, by firms rather than private persons. When I was at the Treasury an accountant I know in the City told me that he was frequently telephoned by people in the business world asking, "Is it really true that we can get a new motor car and write 65 per cent. off the Income Tax in the first year?" The allowance was then 40 per cent., and with the additional allowance for the first year, as the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) said, it came to something like 60 or 65 per cent.
    If we had reintroduced the initial allowances it would have been my wish to exempt motor cars. It cannot be administratively impossible; a motor car can be defined and has been defined in many statutes. I hope that the Government will at least agree to look at the matter in that spirit between now and the Report stage.
    Mr. Stevens: I wish to raise a matter which is small but of considerable importance, and that is the references to the date, 15th April, in lines 2 and 27, on page 10. One very often wishes that the fiscal year did not end, as it does for some historical reason which is concealed from me, on 5th April. That rather curious date sometimes gives rise to serious and complicated calculations which often entail a substantial waste of time. But at least let us be consistent. Let us stick to 31st December as the end of the calendar year and to 5th April as the end of the fiscal year and not introduce another date, 15th April.
    It happened that in 1953 the Budget was introduced by my right hon. Friend on 14th April, but if our Income Tax. legislation, so far as effective dates are concerned, is to be governed by the date on which the Budget is introduced, we shall be overwhelmed by a complicated plethora of entirely fortuitous dates. If my right hon. Friend can make the date 6th April instead of 15th April, it will, I am sure, make only a trifling difference to his revenue calculations for ensuing years. For the sake of simplification and precedent I ask him to look at the date again and make it 6th April.
    Mr. Crosland: This is an extremely important Clause, and despite the physical discomfort which continuing the debate means to those of us who attended the Review last night, there are one or two matters that I want to raise.
    It has been an extremely interesting and important debate marred only by the fewness of the concessions made by the Chancellor. It should be said again from this side of the Committee how much we regret that he was not able to accept our Amendment on fuel-saving equipment. I hope that what he stated will be effective. If it is, no one will be more pleased than my hon. Friends and I, but I am certain that some measure on the lines that we proposed will eventually become necessary, and even if we get the concession next year I shall be sorry that a year will have been wasted.
    The most interesting thing about the debate has been that it has been a revelation to a great number of hon. Members —we are bound to be discussing initial allowances for years to come—what quantitatively important facts in finance they are. They have always been rather dismissed as interest-free loans. I believe that, before this debate and before the figures which the Chancellor was courteous enough to give, a great number of people under-estimated how important they were because of the constant use of the phrase "an interest-free loan."
    I wish to quote something from a speech by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro)—who, we hoped, would have had more success tonight with his admirable two or three-year campaign on fuel efficiency—not because it was in any sense an unusual statement but precisely because it represents what most people have hitherto thought about initial allowances. It just happens that I read his speech today. Two years ago he said that an initial allowance was only an interest-free loan from the Treasury and that over a decade it would not cost the Treasury one iota because all it meant was that the Treasury granted 40 per cent. in the first year and less in later years.
    Today, this turns out not to be a correct statement of the position. We now find —it came as a surprise to a number of hon. Members—that a 20 per cent. allowance over a period of 10 years
    914
    would cost the Treasury the large sum of over £400 million and a 40 per cent. initial allowance would cost over £800 million. As long as the initial allowance continues—that is, as long as it is not abolished or reduced—there is a continuing net cost to the Treasury, and that cost represents a definite lightening in the burden of tax falling on industry. To the extent of that net cost to the Treasury, industry is paying less in taxation than it would otherwise be paying.
    We now see more clearly than we did before we were given this interesting calculation that initial allowances must be taken very seriously as an alternative method of lightening the alleged burden on industry whenever that burden is becoming an important factor.
    12 midnight.
    I should like to support what my right hon. Friend said about the initial allowance on motor cars. One of the most tiresome features of the system, as it existed before, was the granting of these allowances on professional and business men's motor cars, which could not possibly be considered an important contribution to the country's capital re-equipment.
    Two years ago, on this very point, we actually had the support of the present Minister of Works. He never attends our financial debates now. I hope that his absence means he is having no influence on Government financial policy. That will be some compensation. From some of his answers this afternoon, it seems that he is so busy preventing historic houses from falling down that he has no time for national finance. But two years ago, the present Minister of Housing and Local Government said, very strongly, that there was no strong argument for granting this allowance in the case of business motor cars, and I hope that the Financial Secretary will indicate that the Government is prepared to consider this.
    We must regret, from this side of the Committee, that the Chancellor, although very courteously, did not accept our suggestion that all plant and equipment allowances should be made 40 per cent. The whole capital investment situation in Britain, looming ahead, is a very serious one. The whole trend of labour is clearly in the wrong direction. It is moving out of the industries one wants it to move

    915
    into, and moving into the industries one wants it to move out of. I should have thought there was an overwhelming case for restoring this allowance to 40 per cent. I hope that the Government, between this year and next year's Finance Bill, will consider seriously whether they can do it next year.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I think that the hon Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) will agree that his observations largely dealt with matters which had been discussed before and were designed, perhaps, more to regret that the decisions had not been such that he could thoroughly approve of them. In these circumstances, where we have failed to convince him at an earlier stage, a last minute conversion will, I suspect, not be possible. I shall probably be meeting his own intentions if I treated his observations as having been more in the nature of a final protest than as a desire to carry on the debate on the Clause we have been discussing during the whole of the Parliamentary day.
    The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), raised the question of motor cars, on which he had put down an Amendment. I do not want to introduce 'again at this stage the old argument about discrimination. Yet it is a question of discrimination, although discrimination the other way round, which the right hon. Gentleman is proposing now. The arguments throughout the latter part of this debate have been directed to the proposition that discrimination should be exercised in favour of certain articles. He has suggested discrimination against motor cars. To some extent, the general arguments which the Economic Secretary deployed with his habitual skill on more than one occasion, regarding discrimination, apply to this.
    The motor car is undoubtedly an essential part of the equipment of certain people whose means of carrying on their trade or earning their livelihood depends upon their mobility. It was for that reason that in the days when motor cars were very scarce systems of priorities were devised, to make sure these people obtained them. It is a piece of discrimination in reverse to suggest that motor cars should be excluded altogether from the operation of the initial allowance system.
    916
    It would certainly be a matter of very great difficulty to seek to discriminate inside the motor car class between those motor cars which were absolutely essential to particular people, and those less essential. Therefore, it is a little difficult to go very far with the right hon. Gentleman, but if he has any particular and specific point which he would like to draw to our attention as to the operation of the allowance in this connection my right hon. Friend would be happy to consider it.
    The hon. Member for Langstone (Mr. Stevens) also raised a question which he had intended to raise on an Amendment. It related to the operating date, and he stressed the inconvenience, particularly to members of the profession of which he is such an ornament, of 15 th April as opposed to 6th April. I have the pro-foundest respect for the skill of the accountancy profession, and I doubt whether this day will constitute a very serious difficulty for them.
    On the other hand, to concede the point he raised would not be without a certain element of cost. We are dealing with an allowance which in its full operation amounts to only £80 million a year, and an advancement of the date is not inconsiderable in its financial consequences. It would, moreover, be inconsistent with the whole principle, and its design of encouraging investment, to apply it to investment taking place before the announcement of the Budget speech. The hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that on a previous occasion 6th April had been the material day. I think that was in 1949, when the late Sir Stafford Cripps doubled the allowance, but that happened to be Budget day, and that was the explanation of the choice of date.
    Mr. Stevens: Is the Financial Secretary suggesting that 6th April was first used in connection with fiscal matters in 1949? My impression is that it goes back to Richard I.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Oh, no, it goes much beyond that. I do not think he has put his argument as high as he might. But I was referring to the time the initial allowances were last made, which happened to be Budget day. It would be contrary to the principle of encouraging investment, since it is difficult to encourage investment retrospectively. Although

    917
    my right hon. Friend appreciates the point that it might be more difficult from the accountancy point of view I have sufficient faith in the ability of the hon. Gentleman's profession to surmount this difficulty which is put in their way.
    We have had a full discussion of the important matters embodied in the Clause, and I hope that hon. Gentlemen may feel that it has been adequately and properly discussed and that we may, in the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), now "part with the Clause."
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    To report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again this day.

  COASTAL FLOODING (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS)
  12.9 a.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): I beg to move,
  That the draft Coastal Flooding (Acreage Payments) Scheme, 1953, a copy of which was laid before this House on 20th May, be approved.
  This is the first scheme under the Coastal Flooding Act, which has recently been put on the Statute Book. I would first say a word of thanks to my hon. Friends who have given so much help in the passage of the Act and in the preparatory work of drafting the scheme, and to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite who joined in the informal consultations which were of great assistance in getting the schemes into the form in which we have them now.
  This first scheme provides for the making of acreage payments for the rehabilitation of agricultural land and allotment gardens damaged by the flooding of 31st January this year. The Act provides that schemes may be made for five years. This scheme runs for one year only, and schemes in the future will vary according to the progress made in rehabilitation and the varying needs of the land. The Schedule of payments that appears in the scheme is, broadly speak-
  918
  ing, the same as was provisionally proposed by my right hon. Friend on the Second Reading last April. I think they are already well known to hon. Members and to farmers.
  There are two additions to them. I would call attention to the fact that in the first paragraph of the Schedule there is a new column of payment rates, which are half the full rates. This has been added to cover the position of land damaged by sea-water but not flooded by it. The water seeped in underneath the land, up through the drainage system, and damaged it. A payment at half the full rate should cover the need for rehabilitating that land. The other addition is the flat-rate payment of £16 an acre to cover allotment gardens, as agreed following the debate on Second Reading. The minimum acreage to qualify for the scheme is that specified in the parent Act, half an acre. The position of allotment gardens is covered by allowing them to be aggregated by any allotment society, so that in any particular case they add up to not less than half an acre.
  The payments fall under four main headings. Land under crops at 31st January, qualifies for the full rate in the first part of the Schedule, provided that the land was actually flooded. If, on the other hand, it was only damaged by seepage it qualifies for the half rate. The second category is land which was grassland at the time of the flooding. In the second part of the Schedule there is an acreage rate to be paid according to whether the grassland was temporary grassland or not, or whether it was mainly or completely destroyed, or only partly.
  The third category is for bare land, to which the damage has not been too serious, so that in the opinion of the county agricultural committee a crop could usefully be grown on it this year. In the third part of the Schedule are payments roughly at half the full rates to cover the cost, which might otherwise fall on the farmer concerned, of growing the crop. The fourth category is for land which was bare at the time of the flooding and, in the opinion of the committee, should remain bare because its condition is such that it should be left for at least another year before it is cropped.

  919
  That is the bare outline of the scheme. These acreage payments are intended to enable farmers to proceed with the rehabilitation of their land and get it back into full production. That work of rehabilitation will have to go on continuously. The basic need, of course, is to see to the drainage of the land, to see that ditches are kept open and that field drainage is worked, and we have been able to give some extra assistance in that connection. At the same time, the farmer will be receiving advice from the county agricultural committee as to what crops he should grow, what cultivation he should do, and in many cases what things he should not do to let the land recover. In many cases gypsum will be applied to free the land from salt.
  That is the broad picture of the acreage payments which we propose. The scales proposed are not ungenerous. I hope and believe that they will be sufficient to enable farmers in the East Coast areas, many of whom suffered considerably last winter, to keep going on their farms with a reduced acreage of productive land and, at the same time, restore progressively into full production the land which was so seriously damaged.
  12.16 a.m.
  Mr. George Brown: The Joint Parliamentary Secretary said that some of us had been engaged in informal conversations with him about the draft Statutory Instruments which we are debating tonight and he thanked us for our help in getting them into the condition in which they now are. I was very glad to take part in the conversations with the hon. Gentleman, but in the light of what I am going to say I hope he does not thank us for the condition in which these Statutory Instruments appear to me to be.
  Subject to explanation, I find it very difficult indeed to agree to the passage of this scheme tonight. The hon. Gentleman said quite rightly that the purpose of the acreage payment was to help bring about the rehabilitation of the land damaged by floods on 31st January and in the period immediately after that. Was not the intention, not to pay compensation for damage which had occurred to crops, but rather to make payments
  920
  relating to the damage in such a way that the farmer might be helped to bring the rehabilitation about as quickly as possible? That is the very sentence used in Section 13 of the Coastal Flooding (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1953:
  "For the purpose of promoting the rehabilitation of arable or pasture land…."
  As the draft is now drawn, by design or by accident, for the greater part the payments have been wholly divorced from any provision for the rehabilitation of land.
  When we were discussing the Bill which is now an Act the question arose how we should deal with the land. We were told, and the words are in Section 13 (1), that the land would be dealt with
  "… in such of the modes hereinafter mentioned as may be specified in the scheme…."
  But there is nothing specific in the scheme now before us about the modes that are to be employed.
  Delegated legislation has been very heavily attacked, but here we are doing very much more than delegating legislation and very much more than having a general enabling Act and then a Statutory Instrument. We are having a Statutory Instrument which, we were promised, would specify the modes to be employed; but with reference to acreage payments, all that that Statutory Instrument states is:
  "… in respect of the dealing in an approved mode during the year 1953 with land of the kind referred to in subsection (1) of the said section."
  The land is not to be dealt with in the mode aforementioned as the Act says; the land is now to be dealt with in "an approved mode." What is meant by that? We are told that "approved" means
  "approved by a County Agricultural Executive Committee."
  So the specifying, which was not done in the Act, and which it was sought subsequently to do in the scheme, is to be done neither in the Act nor in the scheme; but is to be done by a county agricultural executive committee whose actions cannot be queried in this House.
  I regard this as an offensive form of Statutory Instrument, wholly contrary to the undertaking given, and contrary to the provisions of the Act itself. One doubts very much if the county agricultural

  921
  executive committee, miles away from this House, is going to be in a position to enforce its orders at all. Let us suppose that the county committee decides to approve in a particular case mode (a) under Section 13 (2) of the Act—
  "the use thereof for the growing of crops of such description as may be specified in the scheme."
  The county committee gives an order to a farmer, and he asks by what authority it is enforced. The committee says it is by the Act, and the farmer turns up the Act, and finds that it must be justified in the scheme. Then, he looks at the scheme, and finds that there are no crops specified as being crops which must be grown in order that the acreage payments shall be made.
  I gave the Joint Parliamentary Secretary notice that I would raise these points, and so be has no doubt armed himself with all the answers. Perhaps I could draw his attention to the Schedule, where at the beginning we read:
  "Where the land was, on 31st day of January, 1953, wider any of the crops specified or described in the first column hereunder, acreage payments shall be at the rate specified opposite to the appropriate name or description of crop …"
  I would remind the Parliamentary Secretary that here we are talking in terms of £80 an acre. It does not say that one of the crops now specified shall be grown on the land in question. If the farmer had his land under asparagus, or bulbs, at 31st January, he will be entitled to expect under this scheme that he is going to get £80 an acre. If the county committee says, "No, we will only pay that provided you agree to crop this land with some other crop" and the man challenges it, from where does the county committee get its authority to enforce the growing of some other crop?
  There is nothing which gives power at all. There is no specified crop to be grown, as the Act stated there would be. It is specificially stated,
  "Where the land was … under any of the crops specified … acreage payments shall be at the rate specified …"
  and with no clarification or limitation at all. I say that is departing wholly from the purpose and, indeed, the words of the Act, because we are now to pay up to £80 an acre as compensation for the
  922
  damage and not as a payment to bring about rehabilitation.
  The same arguments apply equally to paragraph 2 of the Schedule, land that was under grass. The kind of grasses that it had to be under at that date are mentioned, but nothing is said about what is to be done with that land. There is no loss of crops specified to be planted or grown on the land that was under grass on 31st January.
  Coming to paragraph 3, land that was bare on 31st January, we get a list of crops specified. The man who had bare land who claims payment has, by the words of paragraph 3, to undertake to plant one of the crops mentioned. The very fact that it is specifically provided for him and is not provided for either of the other classes must clearly be interpreted to mean that there is no specification for the other classes. Paragraph 3 says:
  "Where the land was bare on the 31st day of January, 1953, and any of the crops specified or described … sown or planted during the year 1953…."
  That is provided for the bare land, but the land that was under grass on 31st January, 1953, does not require to be sown or planted with any list of crops, and none is given. The land that was under crops at that date does not require to be planted with any list of crops, and none is given.
  So, much as we would like to assist the Parliamentary Secretary at this stage with an easy passage of this draft scheme—and during the last two hours I have been at some pains to help him to get himself into a position in which he could perhaps allay our fears—this scheme departs so completely from the terms of the Act, and does not comply in any way with what we were told was to happen, that I feel it very difficult even to promise that we can let it go through at all. I do not believe it right to pass an Act of Parliament to say what is to happen and then delegate responsibility to county agricultural executive committees whose work we shall never know about. I believe that is wrong. I believe still more that it must be wrong, if the Act says that the money can only be paid for one of a group of crops which are to be specified when grown, to pass a scheme providing for the paying of the

  923
  money without any question about the sowing or growing of certain crops, and even without specifying them.
  I will not press the matter further now, but I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give us some answer. If, as I think is bound to happen, he has to say there is no specification, no list of crops, in the case of paragraphs 1 and 2 of the Schedule, then I ask him to withdraw the scheme to give us time for having some talks about it. What we do not want to do is to let the scheme slip through tonight and then find we are handing away £80 an acre without any limitation.
  There is just one other small point. I am not clear about the date by which the claims have to be in. I gather the date is to be 15th July, 1953, by which date any person desiring to apply for acreage payments must have his application in, subject only to the provision that the Minister may in special circumstances allow a longer period. I have had great experience of this. I know what happens in Departments when chaps get behind the date—and there are always people behind the date; an awful lot of minutes are written to say there are no special circumstances, with long correspondence and argument going on. It is much better to have a date in the first place that gives people a reasonable time. This is now 17th June.
  I find it very difficult to believe that it is reasonable to say, under a scheme that we are not making until the early hours of 17th June that all the claims of all the farmers, allotment holders and allotment societies affected must be in by 15th July. It is a period of less than one month and I believe that it is a wholly unreasonable time. If that date is left in, there will be lots of claims made outside that date. However, in my view, that is a smaller point. I am much more concerned with the larger point that this scheme seems to be contravening the provisions of the Act, and it is to that point that I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to address himself in particular.
  12.31 a.m.
  Mr. A. J. Champion: I did not have any part in the negotiations which may have taken place on this scheme, and therefore I
  924
  approached it with a completely fresh mind when it appeared in the Vote Office. It seemed to me not to carry out the intention of the House when they parted with the Measure, or with what I understood to be the undertakings given by the Minister on the Committee stage. I was of the opinion that these payments would be so much a part of the rehabilitation scheme that the method of rehabilitation would, as far as practicable, be set out in any such scheme set before us. That is not the case with this scheme.
  The Minister has said that under this scheme the farmers will receive advice from the county agricultural executive committees. I did not understand that that was all that would happen; advice certainly, but the scheme was intended to provide that the payment should not be made unless rehabilitation was actually taking place. I believe that payments should be made which can be regarded as compensation, but payments which are not ungenerous should be part and parcel of a scheme which will bring this land back as rapidly as possible into full production.
  There are payments which amount to as much as £80 per acre—a pretty substantial part of the taxpayers' money going to people whose land was damaged and who suffered loss, but they are at the moment the keepers of that land on behalf of the nation, and we want to ensure by a scheme of this sort that we shall not only be paying them these sums up to £80 per acre but that the land will be undergoing a process of rehabilitation which has been very carefully worked out.
  I am bound to agree that it is not possible to work out these schemes down to the last detail, for obviously someone in the immediate vicinity of the land and knowing the land must take the final decision whether the land can be brought back into full production. Nevertheless, having regard to the wording of the Act and the undertakings which were given during every stage when it was going through this House, we should at least have something in this scheme which tells us something of the nature of the obligations on the part of the farmers and of the way in which the Minister is instructing his county agricultural executive committees how these payments shall be

  925
  made and, indeed, how they shall be withheld in cases where farmers are not doing what they ought to rehabilitate the land which has been damaged by salt water. I hope the Minister will satisfy us on these points. I do feel that there is a serious omission from the scheme which has been agreed with the Treasury and is before us tonight as to the process of rehabilitation before the demands of farmers whose land was damaged are met.
  12.35 a.m.
  Mr. Nugent: If I may have the leave of the House, I will reply to the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and the hon. Member for Derbyshire South-East (Mr. Champion). With regard to the point made strongly by the right hon. Gentlemen, that this scheme was giving a carte-blanche to the county committees so that they were in no way controlled by the wish of the House as to how they dealt with applicants, I think, although I agree that it is a trifle involved in the relationship between the scheme and the parent Act, that county committees are tied by the definition of mode.
  It is true that in paragraph 3 of the scheme the operative words are "… dealing in an approved mode," which appear in the fourth line. And "approved" is defined as meaning "approved by a county agricultural executive committee." Then, at the bottom of the page, it states that "mode" means:
  "one of the modes of dealing with land referred to in subsection (2) of section 13 of the parent Act."
  So that county committees, in deciding what mode to approve, have before them only the four modes specified by Section 13 (2) of the parent Act. To that extent the county committees are directed precisely by the four modes which we ourselves have approved.
  With regard to the general principle of what farmers are required to do in return for acreage payments, I have been clearly under the impression, and I thought the House was, that in this matter we were concerned with two things, namely, with recovering the cost of the farmer's operations to him, so that the actual spending he has been engaged in would be recovered by him through these acreage payments, and some element
  926
  towards rehabilitation as well. In this first scheme we have to deal with the condition of the farms at the time of the flooding. Naturally, there were crops in the ground which was flooded, some tillage, some grass. We must have regard to what was the farmer's actual cash loss at the time due to the crops being in the land.
  Mr. G. Brown: We must get this clear. That is not what the Act says. There is nothing in Section 13(1) about recouping the farmer for cash loss, with some element, as the Parliamentary Secretary says, towards rehabilitation. It says simply,
  " For the purpose of promoting the rehabilitation of arable or pasture land …"
  At what stage was it decided to change and to start recouping the cash loss?
  Mr. Nugent: It is evident that if the farmer is deliberately to be left out of pocket through the flooding, which would be the effect if he received nothing for the crops which were in the ground at the time of the flooding, his prospect of having sufficient cash resources to carry on his farming through the current year would be gravely prejudiced. We must interpret rehabilitation in a broad fashion if we are to enable this man to get going on the farm and to make a sufficient living to remain there. The acreage payments on the crops in the ground at the time of flooding, whether tillage crops or grass crops, are based primarily on what would be an outgoing valuation at the time, and I think that is the right basis on which to pay the farmer, to enable him to keep going and to bring the land back into a productive state as soon as possible.
  Undoubtedly the scheme gives the committees power to advise farmers concerned to grow a certain crop or to leave the land fallow, if they wish, though they have no longer the sanction with the autumn sown crop of withholding a payment if he does not comply. With the spring sown crop or any other operation to follow after the event, obviously if the farmer is not willing to accept the advice of the committee, the committee will withhold the money, but it seems to me a practical method to see that farmers receive acreage payments for the crops which were in the ground and were damaged at the time of flooding.
  Mr. Brown: We are now faced with a scheme which has nothing to do with the Act and for which there is no power in the Act. Where in the Act is the Minister given power to make acreage payments for losses suffered during the floods without having to require that certain rehabilitation takes place? Which Section gives power to recoup losses due to flooding of 31st January? I am not asking whether the Minister thinks it right; the time for that was when the Bill was before us.
  Mr. Nugent: The operative Section is Section 13, which gives the Minister power to make payments
  "in respect of the dealing with such land, in any of the relevant years (as hereinafter defined), in such of the modes hereinafter mentioned as may be specified in the scheme."
  The basis of the acreage payments is on what it costs; it could not be otherwise. How else could we assess the acreage payments? There is the sanction which the committee might apply—it was mentioned in the debate—that if the farmer is unwilling to follow their advice in the ultimate instance they can take action against him for bad husbandry, but other than that there is no sanction except withholding the acreage payment on crops planted afterwards, but it is physically impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to reverse the process where the crop has been sown beforehand.
  Mr. Brown: We know that the crop was sown beforehand and was flooded. We know we passed the Act to enable us to make payments to the farmer to help him in rehabilitation, which includes some element of money which he needs because of loss, but it was set out in the Act that he should proceed to deal with the land in a specified way. What I am asking is that since no way of proceeding with the land is specified in the scheme, how can he require the man to deal with the land in a specified way? His answer has been that he is not trying to do that but is merely trying to recoup the man for his past loss. I have asked where in the Section he is given authority to do that, and so far he has failed to tell us.
  Mr. Nugent: The possibility of attaching a condition to a payment which has been made for something which had been done previously would be extremely re-
  928
  mote. All that can happen here is that if, in the case of crops which were in the ground at the time, the farmer subsequently fails during the current year to follow a course of good husbandry as advised by the committee, as I said in my opening remarks, his prospect of receiving a payment under the next acreage scheme will be very gravely prejudiced.
  12.46 a.m.
  Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas: This is an important point and, at the moment, it seems that the hon. Gentleman is under a staggering misapprehension as to the effect of the Section. I am obliged to him for giving way, and I hope that his doing so will enable him to answer the point that I am arguing. Perhaps he will be good enough carefully to follow what I put to him.
  My first point is that there is no provision at all in Section 13, or as far as I can see elsewhere in the Act, for making any payment in respect of crops which were on the land and have been destroyed. He has said that some part of the payments provided for in the Schedule to the scheme are payments in respect of past crops. To get that clear, I would ask him to follow the words I shall read from Section 13 (1), leaving out the words which are irrelevant:
  "For the purpose of promoting the rehabilitation of … land … the Minister may, in accordance with a scheme … make … payments in respect of the dealing with such land …"
  That is, future dealings with such land—
  "… in such of the modes hereinafter mentioned as may be specified in the scheme and determined in accordance therewith to be best calculated in that year to secure the rehabilitation of the land."
  It relates to rehabilitation and future dealings with the land. It has nothing whatever to do with past crops. It is simply and purely dealing with rehabilitation and with land in accordance with the four methods specified in the section for the purposes of rehabilitation. Thus, my first point is that there is no provision at all for making any allowance for past crops.
  The second point—perhaps the hon. Gentleman will deal with it at the same time—was also raised by my right hon. Friend. It relates to the provision in Section 13 (2), which is concerned with

  929
  the various modes of dealing with land. It says:
  "The said modes of dealing with land are— (a) the use thereof for the growing of crops of such descriptions as may be specified in the scheme …"
  In other words, the descriptions of the crops must be specified in the scheme. The only place where there is specification of crops for the purposes of rehabilitation is, as my right hon. Friend said, in the third category of the scheme where the land is bare. There is no provision in either of the other categories, where there are crops and where there is pasture.
  I would test that by putting this question to the hon. Gentleman. Does he contemplate in the case of the first category, that of crops mentioned in the Schedule to the scheme, that the agricultural executive committee should have power to require asparagus to be grown again upon the land? I can see no provision in the scheme which enables the committee to require asparagus or anything else to be grown again. If that is his intention, the scheme does not appear to me to carry it out. I ask expressly, therefore, whether or not he contemplates that the county agricultural executive committees should have power, where an asparagus crop has been grown before, to require that an asparagus crop should be grown again.
  Mr. Nugent: The answer to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's first point of where do I find in Section 13 a provision for making compensation for crops is to be found in the operative words he himself read out——
  "… the Minister may … make out of moneys provided by Parliament payments in respect of the dealing with such land … in such of the modes hereinafter mentioned as may be specified in the scheme and determined in accordance therwith to be best calculated in that year to secure the rehabilitation of the land."
  It seems to me that these words can reasonably carry the meaning I am putting on them; that for the rehabilitation of the land it is necessary that farmers should receive these acreage payments for the crops in the land at the time if they are to proceed with the work we want them to of bringing this land again into production.
  Regarding the second question of whether I anticipated that the county
  930
  agricultural executive committees are likely to advise a farmer, under the Schedule, to replant his land with asparagus where he had asparagus in the land at the time of the flooding, the answer is that it is possible that they could, if they thought it desirable. I should think it is extremely unlikely.
  Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Where do they get the power to do so?
  Mr. Nugent: The scheme seems to me to be specific as regards powers. In paragraph 3 we have:
  "Subject to the provisions of this scheme, the Minister may make acreage payments thereunder to the persons whom such payments fall to be made in accordance with the provisions of subsection (4) of section 13 of the Act in respect of the dealing in an approved mode during the year 1953…."
  An approved mode is clearly defined as what is approved by the county agricultural executive committees. The modes are the four modes laid down in Section 13 (2) of the Act.
  Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: The mode is one of the modes indicated in subsection (2) of the Act, but subsection (2, a) indicates as the mode:
  "… the growing of crops of such description as may be specified in the scheme."
  There is no crop specified in the scheme. That is the whole point.
  Mr. Nugent: The Schedule certainly specifies the crops.
  Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Crops to be grown?
  Mr. Nugent: It certainly specifies all the crops we are dealing with in this compensation scheme.
  Mr. G. Brown: We are not trying to make it awkward for the hon. Gentleman. Paragraph 3 of the Schedule, says:
  "Where the land was bare on the 31st day of January, 1953, and any of the crops specified or described in the first column hereunder is approved…."
  that is clear. But, in paragraph 1 of the Schedule it merely says:
  "Where the land was …"—
  Mr. Speaker: This is becoming a sort of dialogue instead of a series of speeches. I hope hon. Members can confine their remarks to as few as possible.
  Mr. Brown: We are all in difficulty about this scheme since nowhere can we find from where it derives its powers. Nor can we find in the scheme the particular things which the Act specified were to be there. We are trying to ask the Joint Parliamentary Secretary where they are. If we make a speech and a reply is given without telling us where these things are, how are we to prevent the scheme slipping through at this outrageous hour?
  Mr. Speaker: Hon. Gentlemen are entitled to make their criticisms of the scheme. The Minister is entitled to reply. What I am protesting against is a series of speeches from both sides. Surely the matter can be dealt with more conveniently if the criticisms are made, the answers given, and then the scheme either accepted or rejected?
  Mr. Brown: Would it be helpful to ask for the assistance of the Leader of the House? If the scheme were withdrawn it would give us a chance to talk behind the Chair about what quite clearly is a difficulty. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Opposition will not hinder the progress of the scheme.
  Mr. Nugent: I apologise if the scheme has caused difficulty. It seems to me that the difficulties have been magnified by the right hon. Gentleman. As the Act was something we have been all agreed upon and have got through as a matter of urgency it would be most unfortunate to try and force this matter now. While I am reluctant to hold up the passage of the scheme, if the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends think that further discussion informally is likely to clarify this difficulty I am more than willing to offer that. If that is the will of the House I shall be pleased to withdraw it and bring it forward again. In the circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  12.57 a.m.
  Mr. Nugent: I beg to move,
  That the draft Coastal Flooding (Compensation for Emergency Work) Order, 1953, a copy of which was laid before this House on 20th May, be approved.
  This is the scheme for compensation for work done under the parent Act. The
  932
  scheme itself is fairly long and complicated, and I do not propose to go into great detail on the various provisions at this time. Once again we had the advantage of informal consultations in its preparation which, I think, did facilitate matters. Broadly speaking, the parent Act gives the Minister power to authorise river boards in those areas where the coastal flooding took place to do all necessary work to restore and strengthen coast defences to prevent flooding of the kind we had last January.
  Where the highway is concerned, there are also powers for my right hon. Friend to work in co-ordination with the Minister of Transport, and where necessary to authorise the highway authority instead of the river board to do the work. These emergency powers give my right hon. Friend, through his agents, the river boards, power to cut across the interests of private persons and public bodies in an exceptional way in order to deal with this emergency. The purpose of the Order is that where the exercise of any of these powers may result in injury to the rights or interests of private persons, it will provide compensation.
  The structure of the draft Order follows that of Section 3 of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, which refers to compensation in respect of work on land under the Defence Regulations. In following that structure we follow a precedent set up for a similar purpose. The main features are found in paragraphs 4 and 5. Paragraph 4 provides compensation for occupiers of land on which work is to be done which results in loss of rental value of the land. In such cases, quarterly payments may be made, and continue, until the end of the restoration period which is defined in paragraph 6. During the period of the work and the restoration period, where compensation is to be paid, it is in reference to the rental value. At the end of the restoration period, if the person with an interest or estate in the land, as paragraph 5 says, considers that there is a lasting injury to the land, he has a claim for compensation under that paragraph, if he considers that he is injuriously affected.
  People who have a claim may be either the occupier, the tenant, the landowner, or the mortgagee; in fact, anybody with an interest or estate in the land. In each

  933
  case the claim will be assessed as in paragraph 5(1) either on land which is affected by the work or on the site itself. There again, there may be compensation for injurious affection. The position in the second case follows a slightly different procedure, the same procedure as if the land on which the work was done had been compulsorily purchased under the Land Clauses Act, 1845. This is a familiar procedure, used in the ordinary process where compulsory purchase orders are issued for acquisition of housing sites, and so on. This also covers claims for disturbance which may arise under the paragraph, for such things as loss of crops, exhaustion of manurial values, loss of rents or removal of dwell-inghouse, where the dwellinghouse may have been in the path of the new coast defence wall which was built, and the occupier had to move to another.
  The restoration period in paragraph 6 is the period ending with the earliest of these three days: 12 months after the end of the works period, i.e., 30th June, 1954; the day when the river board tell the occupier of the land that they have completed all the restoration work that they consider practicable; the day when the notice of the compulsory purchase order is served. That ranks as the end of the restoration period.
  Paragraph 7 deals with damage to private ways. Normally a river board will restore them to their former condition. If not, a claim for compensation lies for the cost of the repairs when the river board hand them back. Paragraph 8 gives protection to a local authority in respect of statutory undertakings. Paragraph 9 provides for payment of interest when compensation is due. Paragraph 10 fixes the time limit for claims. Paragraph 11 provides the appeal machinery for disputed claims to go to the Lands Tribunal. Paragraph 12 covers cases where any land on which work has been done by a river board or other authority is compulsorily acquired by that board or authority. We think that there will be few cases where a board will find it necessary to acquire land.
  That is an outline of this rather complex and comprehensive scheme. As was suggested in our conversations, a brief note has been prepared for circulation to all those who have an interest in the
  934
  affected land. That note will be circulated by river boards to persons affected by the operations.
  It will advise them to make their claims and will indicate the nature of the compensation that they will receive. It is also the normal practice for the Minister to pay the fees of the claimant's valuers when assessing claims.
  1.7 a.m.
  Mr. G. Brown: I thank the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for the courtesy with which he met what must have been very troublesome questions on the previous Order. I assure him that I meant what I said when I stated that the Government would not suffer unnecessarily as a consequence. I thank him particularly for what he has said on this very complex and difficult scheme. I have a suspicion that the reason why we did not clear up informally the points on the other scheme was that we got very involved in this one and that we omitted to look as closely as we should have done at the other.
  With one exception, it seems to me that in this Statutory Instrument the Government have done everything that we could have hoped that they would do. I was very glad to hear that an explanatory memorandum is to be circulated. I attach great importance to that because I do not think that any small man who may be affected will understand this Order. I have made one criticism before which the Government have not met, and I repeat it only for the sake of the record. It is that I feel that the compensation offered in paragraph 4 (1) to the occupier of the land will not prove adequate.
  The assumed rental value of the land in its damaged or disturbed condition is to be deducted from the actual pre-work rental value of the land, and the compensation is to be limited to the amount of the difference between the two. At first sight that seems to be fair play. We appear to be giving a man what the work must have cost him. But, in fact, it is less.
  As I have pointed out before to the Ministers, there may well be a small farmer whose land has not only been reduced in its rental value because some part of it has been taken but who, in order to keep his livestock going, may

  935
  have to rent compensation land elsewhere. As I understand it, he will get nothing in the way of compensation at all for anything but the bare difference between the old rental value and the reduced rental value while the work goes on. I must say that I should have thought the Government could have gone the extra bit and widened these words without committing themselves too far in order that such a man could have had recourse to the arbitration tribunal on that basis. The tribunal could then have determined the actual losses.
  Could the Parliamentary Secretary say if I am unduly pessimistic in thinking that the actual words of paragraph 4 (1) rule out a claim being made before an arbitration tribunal? I feel that the very last words,
  "… and shall be an amount equal to the difference."
  are so very limiting that even submission of a claim could not be made. We have put all these points in informal discussions, but I do suggest that it is unfair to limit the compensation too much.
  I think we should compare the compensation given to the occupiers of land to that for local authorities for drains and sewers, and to statutory undertakers, for the facts are startling. In the second section, the compensation is going to be pretty full, even although it is these bodies that are able to bear the cost rather than the small men in the first case. I should be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary will represent to the Minister that we think there seems to be an injustice here and that further consideration might be given to it and perhaps an amending Order brought in if we are thought to be right.
  We are all agreed that this is a complex subject, and I think that everybody concerned will have to employ professional advisers to make claims and fill up forms. I understand that when that is done, in certain circumstances, the costs to the small men who employ professional advisers will be met by the board paying the compensation. Otherwise, these chaps are going to avoid using professional advice and lose thereby.
  I conclude by thanking the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for his explanations, and his right hon. Friend for the way
  936
  he has tried to help us all the way through, and, if my criticisms could be borne in mind, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we on this side of the House will be only too pleased to pass the Order tonight.

  ANGLO-RUSSIAN RELATIONS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Oakshott.]
  1.14 a.m.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I am aware that in this short debate on our relations with the U.S.S.R. I cannot possibly deal adequately with any of the great issues that are involved in this question. I certainly do not expect to embarrass the representative of the Government by asking him to elaborate upon the very full statement which the Prime Minister has made recently. The Prime Minister has frequently said at Question time that he does not wish to add to that statement, and I do not wish to embarrass him by any sort of criticism that is likely to make things more difficult. If he does not wish to add to his statement or to the policy he has placed before the House, I should be quite content that he should not subtract from it.
  I hope that in the near future, in the course of the next few days or weeks, we shall see the end of the "hot" war in Korea, and that that will lead to the possibility of the opening out of negotiations. I certainly associate myself with those who wish the Prime Minister every possible success in the conference that he has undertaken, and hope that it will result in a meeting of the Four Powers which, in turn, will result in negotiations which, if they do not end the "cold" war, will at least make possible the recession into the background, or the abandonment altogether, of the idea of the inevitability of war between East and West.
  There are very welcome signs that tension is easing. There have been some things in our own midst which have shown that relations are becoming somewhat more friendly and the atmosphere more conducive to some kind of at least politeness between the parties that have

  937
  been in conflict. I think it is very appropriate when I am making this plea for a greater understanding that I should refer to the very cordial welcome that the sailors of the Soviet cruiser received in this country. I believe it was a very good thing that they should come here. I believe that their behaviour was irreproachable, and that the people of this country were very glad to see real, live Russians in their midst. Their welcome should show them that in this country there is no hostility to the U.S.S.R., and that the, I would almost say, unanimous feeling of public opinion in this country is in favour of negotiations which will lead to the end of the vary difficult period of tension which has existed since the war.
  I hope that there will be more Russian visitors to this country. I should be very glad to see, not just a cruiser—although I am not very partial to cruisers—but a shipload of Russian tourists coming to this country. Who knows, we might in the near future see the opening of a tourist agency in one of the main streets in Moscow; one might have Messrs. Cooks carrying on a publicity campaign inviting the Russians to come to this country to see the grave of Karl Marx, or the place where Lenin lived in London, or, as some of the Russians are so interested in the Scottish poet, to the countryside of Robert Burns. I believe that if we could get an interchange of visitors, or ordinary men and women between the two countries the way would be paved for that real reconciliation which we all desire.
  I should like to urge that the time has come for an interchange of delegations between this country and the U.S.S.R. I do not know how far the Foreign Office initiates these enterprises, but I believe that they are conducted under its authority and with its acquiescence. I had an opportunity during the past year of visiting the U.S.S.R. as a delegate to the Economic Conference in Moscow, and I also had an opportunity of going through Russia via Siberia on the way to China. I wish this opportunity could be extended to Members of both Houses of Parliament representing a cross-section of Members of Parliament, so that they could visit the U.S.S.R. and see exactly what is going on and
  938
  come into human contact with our opposite numbers on the other side of the frontier.
  I believe that the Russians are genuinely in favour of peace, and that however difficult they may have seemed to us, the desire for peace in Russia today extends right throughout the whole of the population. It is not just a phoney action on the part of the Russian Government; they realise as much as any Government in the world that a war in this atomic age would mean the destruction of Communism as well as of capitalism and would be a tragedy for the world.
  Putting it no higher than self-preservation, I believe that the Russian Government are searching towards a new rapprochement with the West, and I believe we should do everything possible to encourage it. I believe that if Members in all parts of the House could arrange to go to the U.S.S.R. and if members of the Supreme Soviet could come over here we would learn to understand and appreciate each other's difficulties; it would be helpful to the negotiators on either side and would be of incalculable value in bringing about a mood of tolerance and understanding which is the preliminary to international understanding.
  One impression that I have gained from my short visit to the U.S.S.R. is not only the deep, burning desire for peace but also an appreciation of the immense reconstructive work that is being done in Russia which could absorb the energies of the Russian people for a generation. As for their desire for peace, one has only to meet casually any Russian to realise what a tremendous toll the last war took in human life and suffering of the Russian people. The Russians suffered casualties, directly and indirectly, amounting to at least 12 million of the population, and every person one meets, man and woman, has lost relatives. I believe they look upon the prospect of war with the utmost horror, and the policy of the Government is a reflection of the mood of their people.
  I believe that the same thing exists here and that there is a deep desire in the hearts and minds of all peoples in East and West, whether in the U.S.A. or the U.S.S.R., that some attempt should

  939
  be made to formulate a foreign policy which will end not only the fear of the hot war but the tension of the cold war which absorbs the energies of the people in building up armaments and diverting to useless activities the energies which should go to reconstruction throughout the world.
  I make this suggestion in order that it will be said that in this House of Commons there is a genuine desire by all hon. Members that any move towards peace, towards reconciliation, shall be greeted with sincerity; that we all wish that the negotiators who go to this conference—our Prime Minister, President Eisenhower, and all the representatives of the nations—will do so with the utmost good will. Also, that we wish them success in the difficult task, which will require great patience, persistence and courage. I believe that that mood ought to be expressed in this House; and I am sure that if we can harness the energies and activities of hon. Members of this House we shall do something to bring about the peace which we know is desired by all the world.
  1.27 a.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Nutting): The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) himself has said that there is not very much which I can add to what the Prime Minister said in the debate of 11th May; but I should like to thank him for the tone and temper of his speech tonight, made with his characteristic sincerity in these matters, and, in particular, to thank him for the good wishes which he has extended to the Prime Minister and to the President of the United States for the success of their deliberations at Bermuda.
  To sum it up in one sentence, our policy is to maintain on the one hand the Western Alliance as the basis of our strength and our protection, and on the other to neglect no opportunity to reduce tension and to seek agreements wherever and whenever possible with the Soviet Union.
  On the broader issues outstanding between us in the West and the Soviet Union, we must clearly await the Bermuda Conference before making any pronouncement, or speculating, or
  940
  anticipating what the results for the future will be. Perhaps I may just say something on the two outstanding issues of Germany and Austria, because it is important to see these matters in perspective. It is true, as the hon. Member said, that lately the Russians have appeared to modify their occupation policies in Germany and Austria; but there is, alas, no sign as yet that they are willing to commit themselves to any change of policy on vital issues. For example, the hon. Member will remember our proposals last September for free all-German elections, leading to the formation of a free all-German Government. These proposals have remained unanswered since the 23rd September, 1952. Worse still, our proposal for further discussions on the Austrian Treaty by the Deputies was summarily rejected the other day by the Soviet Union on the flimsiest of excuses.
  Nevertheless—I hope the hon. Gentleman agrees that this shows that we are genuine in our search for a settlement— we have asked the Soviet Union what kind of treaty they would be prepared to sign. If they do not want the short treaty which has been put forward, would they be prepared to sign another treaty? If they do not want the Deputies to discuss the Austrian Treaty, let them at least come forward and say what they do want. That is the proposal which we have put forward.
  Turning to the more particular issues of Anglo-Russian relations, I entirely agree with every word the hon. Member said about the need for a greater exchange of visits between the citizens of the two countries. We should warmly welcome any steps that could be taken to give British and Russian citizens a better chance of knowing what life is like in each other's countries, and the obstacles to this are not on our side.
  Perhaps I may give some figures of the number of people who have been to foreign countries from the Soviet Union for January to December, 1950, and from January to June, 1951. These visitors from the Soviet Union to overseas were, of course, virtually all delegates in some Soviet delegation, official or unofficial. In the months January to December, 1950, some 1,893 Soviet citizens visited abroad. In 1951 the figures had improved somewhat, and between January

  941
  and June the figure was 1,288. I say that is an improvement, but when we take into account that there were about 700,000 visitors from overseas to this country alone in 1951, it gives some idea of the paucity of opportunity which has been offered by the Soviet Union to their own citizens to visit countries abroad. The figures I have given include visits by Soviet citizens to the satellites; they are not visits solely to Western countries.
  Ever since the wax the Soviet Union have made it increasingly difficult for normal relationships between the British and Soviet peoples and between other peoples and the Soviet Union to be developed. The most concrete expression of this policy is the Soviet decree of December, 1947, which made it illegal for any Soviet individuals or institutions to have foreign contacts with anyone except through official channels.
  The complete isolation of foreign representatives in Moscow from Soviet domestic life is part of this policy, as are the restrictions on the movement of our diplomats in the Soviet Union, restrictions which are not in any way similarly applied by the authorities over here to the diplomats of the Soviet Union. The exchange of carefully selected official delegations is a very poor substitute, I think the hon. Member will agree, for a really free exchange of people.
  I hope that the rumours which have been circulating that the Soviet Union plans shortly to admit foreign tourists inside their frontiers, and that the Intourist Bureau is going to be opened up, may prove to be true. If the Soviet Government provide facilities for their citizens freely to leave the Soviet Union, freely to obtain foreign exchange, and to go on tours of this country to see how our people live, and see what our institutions are, no one will be more pleased than Her Majesty's Government, and we shall certainly place no obstacles whatever in their way. But what we are not
  942
  prepared to do—and what we can never be prepared to do, and this the House is well aware of—is to admit to this country groups of Communist propagandists who are sent here for the purpose of trying to confuse our people and divide them from their own legally constituted Government. That we cannot do.
  Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about a Parliamentary delegation. He asked this question of the Prime Minister the other day, and he did not get a very forthcoming answer. He was told to put down another Question after the Coronation. I have not noticed any Question by him on the Order Paper, but may I say that the possibility is certainly not excluded. For the moment, I cannot add anything more definite.
  There are many subjects and topics which the hon. Gentleman has not raised. I do not propose to raise these here tonight because several are already under discussion between Her Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow and the Soviet Government. They, of course, include the Soviet wives of British officials, and we are doing all we can to obtain their return to their husbands. These matters are under discussion, and I do not wish to say anything which would either complicate or make more difficult the discussions and negotiations which are now proceeding in Moscow.
  I hope I have said enough to convince the hon. Gentleman that, whether on small issues, on purely Anglo-Soviet outstanding issues, or in the broader field of the relations between the Great Powers, and above all the relations between the West and the Soviet Union, as far as Her Majesty's Government is concerned we shall neglect no opportunity to make any settlement of any outstanding differences between us.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-two Minutes to Two o'clock a.m.

MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Brick Supplies, Rugby
  Brick Supplies, Rugby
  Ancient Monuments (Protection)
  Ancient Monuments (Protection)
SCOTLAND
  Education, Aberdeen
  Education, Aberdeen
  Probation Homes
  Probation Homes
  Woodilee Mental Hospital
  Woodilee Mental Hospital
  Coronary Thrombosis
  Coronary Thrombosis
  Poliomyelitis
  Poliomyelitis
  Education, Glasgow
  Education, Glasgow
  Hospital Patients (Maintenance)
  Hospital Patients (Maintenance)
  Teachers (Supply)
  Teachers (Supply)
  Forestry (Replanting Conditions)
  Forestry (Replanting Conditions)
  Attested Cattle
  Attested Cattle
BRITISH ARMY
  Soldier's Death, Moston Hall Hospital (Report)
  Soldier's Death, Moston Hall Hospital (Report)
  Deputy Lieutenants' Dress (Caps)
  Deputy Lieutenants' Dress (Caps)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Canadian and Soviet Pit Props
  Canadian and Soviet Pit Props
  lastic Manufacture (Moulding Powder)
  lastic Manufacture (Moulding Powder)
  Retail Furnishers (Advertising Code)
  Retail Furnishers (Advertising Code)
  Dry Bulb Onions (Import)
  Dry Bulb Onions (Import)
  Industries, East Kilbride
  Industries, East Kilbride
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Stamp Duty (Leases)
  Stamp Duty (Leases)
  £ Sterling (Convertibility)
  £ Sterling (Convertibility)
  RURAL WATER SCHEMES, LEEK (GRANTS)
  RURAL WATER SCHEMES, LEEK (GRANTS)
HOUSING
  Bungalows, Wood Green (Condensation)
  Bungalows, Wood Green (Condensation)
  No-fines House (Price)
  No-fines House (Price)
  Housebuilding, Harlow (Softwood)
  Housebuilding, Harlow (Softwood)
  Rent Restrictions Acts
  Rent Restrictions Acts
  Price Control
  Price Control
  BUCKLERSBURY HOUSE (FINE ART COMMISSION)
  BUCKLERSBURY HOUSE (FINE ART COMMISSION)
  KOREA (U.K. AND U.N. CASUALTIES)
  KOREA (U.K. AND U.N. CASUALTIES)
  IRON AND STEEL PRICES ORDER (PROSECUTIONS)
  IRON AND STEEL PRICES ORDER (PROSECUTIONS)
  GRENADA (SCHOLARSHIPS)
  GRENADA (SCHOLARSHIPS)
  COLONIAL TERRITORIES (ATHLETIC INSTRUCTION FILMS)
  COLONIAL TERRITORIES (ATHLETIC INSTRUCTION FILMS)
  STATUTORY INSTRUMENT No. 223 (ELECTRICITY UNDERTAKERS)
  STATUTORY INSTRUMENT No. 223 (ELECTRICITY UNDERTAKERS)
  COAL STOCKS, FLOOD AREAS (REPLACEMENT)
  COAL STOCKS, FLOOD AREAS (REPLACEMENT)
  GOVERNMENT TRAINING CENTRES (STAFF)
  GOVERNMENT TRAINING CENTRES (STAFF)
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS, WALES (CALL-UP)
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS, WALES (CALL-UP)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (RETIREMENT PENSIONS)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (RETIREMENT PENSIONS)
  NEW POSTAGE STAMPS (ISSUE)
  NEW POSTAGE STAMPS (ISSUE)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE REVIEW (MEMBERS' FACILITIES)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE REVIEW (MEMBERS' FACILITIES)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

SAINT OSWALD ESTATE BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CORONATION: AMERICAN TELEVISION PROGRAMME
2.36 p.m.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the deep feelings aroused in people throughout Great Britain as the result of the showing of the Coronation Ceremony by television in America; and whether the B.B.C. authorities were aware of the fact that the Ceremony as shown would be used for purposes of advertisements, some of which were in very bad taste.]
THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, I have asked the B.B.C. for a full and detailed report, and if the noble Lord would be good enough to repeat his Question I should hope to give him a reply early next week.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for his Answer, and to say how pleased I am that we are to have a full and official report. We have had various statements made in the Press—some of them rather unlikeable reports—and I take it that the object is to give a full, detailed arid accurate report to the public.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, it might be that the noble Earl would take the opportunity of making a statement on
934
this matter at the same time as he makes a statement—if he intends to make such a statement—on the whole question of the policy here involved. He will be aware that this is a highly controversial matter on which we shall want time for discussion. I do not know whether the noble Earl can say when it will be convenient for him in the near future to make such a statement but it would help us if he could deal with this matter at the same time as the other.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, perhaps I might enter into discussions with the noble and learned Earl on this point, and I will get in touch with him at the earliest possible moment.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I should like to ask whether the noble Earl will consider not making the two statements at the same time, in that there is not necessarily any connection at all between the alleged unfortunate incident of production in the United States and Her Majesty's Government's policy, which would give full protection in this country against any such incidents.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, in connection with the subject matter of the Question, I should like to ask the Government whether they do not consider that the statement in The Times of the 9th instant was ample and satisfactory, if it was correct; and that if it is proved not to be correct, whether we have not plenty of friends in America to take up the matter themselves and that good feeling and propriety make this course preferable.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. While certain lapses are to be regretted and, in fact, were nowhere more deeply regretted than in the United States, I prefer to think of the words of our Ambassador in Washington, who spoke of the American treatment of the Coronation generally as one of the most profound manifestations of sympathy and good will toward Britain that he could remember.

WESTMINSTER ABBEY AND STANDS CHARGES
2.39 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government upon what grounds, for what purpose and upon whose authority are charges being levied upon the public for sitting in Government-erected stands to view the ceremonial processions subsequent to the Coronation, and also for entry into Westminster Abbey.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, charges for seats on the stands erected in the Royal Parks and elsewhere are made on the authority of the Minister of Works, who is responsible for the management of the Royal Parks. My right honourable friend thinks it only right that those who occupied the stands on these special occasions should contribute towards the cost of erection and thus reduce the call on the Exchequer. The receipts are applied as an Appropriation in Aid of the Vote for the Coronation of Her Majesty. The charge for entry into Westminster Abbey is made to reimburse the Dean and Chapter for the loss of revenue, including collections, due to the closing of the Abbey for nearly a year; and also to meet the cost of opening the Abbey to the public.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is a popular supposition that the cost of erecting the Government stands was covered by the price which the Government charged to those who purchased tickets to sit in those stands? Does he not think that it would be a gesture to the common populace of this country that they should not be charged for sitting in the stands, the revenue of which has already accrued to the Government? It appears to me that the amount collected in this way is a small matter, compared with the vast public expenditure connected with the Coronation. Regarding
936
the noble Earl's Answer to the second part of my Question, relating to West-minister Abbey, if there is any loss of revenue because the Government had to take over the Abbey for twelve months, should not the recompense to be made to the Abbey authorities be included in the cost to the Government? Is it not rather a shame that, again, the ordinary people should be exploited by being charged to go into the sacred premises where their Monarch was crowned?
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I should like to ask, in relation to the supplementary question that has been put, why it is that working men, and those who pay taxes in other parts of the country, should have to subsidise people who may occupy these stands? Is it not rather a good thing to have business methods in government?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, if what the noble Earl says is true, then the working man has subsidised your Lordships who went into the Abbey to see the Coronation for nothing.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, in reply to the questions which have been addressed to me, may I say this. As my right honourable friend the Minister of Works announced on February 3 of this year, the prices of £6 and £4 per seat in these stands were calculated on the average cost of construction, and it is now perfectly obvious to him, and to others, that that will not meet the charge. With regard to the noble Lord's second point, I should have thought that the British people would be only too delighted to go into the principal Abbey in this country on the payment of a sum as a donation, a subscription to a charity, rather than that the money should be voted by Parliament.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether there is any evidence of discontent on the part of the public in these matters?
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: The answer to the noble Lord is, No. In point of fact, all the seats were fully occupied, and if they had been big enough to take two people in one seat they would have been equally full.

ST. JAMES'S PARK SEATS
2.44 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why all forms of seating were removed from St. James's Park on Sunday the 31st May, thereby causing acute discomfort to the aged and infirm.]
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, it is customary to remove benches and chairs from the Royal Parks during major ceremonies. It was done for both the Coronation arid the Funeral of His Late Majesty King George VI, and also during Victory Celebrations in 1946. If they are not removed, the public tend to use the chairs and benches to get a better view of the processions, and many chairs and benches get lost or damaged; in fact, on the occasion of the Funeral of His Late Majesty King George V, chairs and benches were not removed and considerable damage resulted. Every effort is made to reduce the period and extent of the inconvenience caused; chairs are removed gradually from each Park, and final removals are completed at the last possible moment before crowds assemble. Her Majesty's Government and my right honourable friend appreciate the inconvenience to the public, particularly the aged and infirm, but feel that it is outweighed by the possible danger and loss if the seats are left in position.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that some of these seats which were removed were so far distant from the route that they could not possibly be used as stands? How the benches—I am not talking about the deck chairs, which are supplied by private enterprise—which are bolted down into concrete bases could be removed and carried away passes my comprehension. Is the noble Earl also aware that many elderly people, especially females, suffered acute distress on that Sunday afternoon—which was one of the
938
few warm afternoons we have had—because there was nowhere to sit down except on the ground; and that sitting on the ground for women advanced in years is both inconvenient and embarrassing?
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I am well aware of the inconvenience suffered by the aged arid the infirm but I think it was well worth while to save a large sum being debited to the Ministry of Works to cover the cost of damage which would otherwise occur.

DOGS (PROTECTION OF LIVESTOCK) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MISCEL LANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
ROAD TRANSPORT LIGHTING (AMENDMENT) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS (PIGS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
CLYDE NAVIGATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
ROAD TRANSPORT LIGHTING (REAR LIGHTS) BILL
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPERANNUATION BILL
2.48 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I should be cruelly deceiving your Lordships' House if I tried to pretend that the details of this Bill, for which I have the honour to ask for a Second Reading this afternoon, are anything except extremely complex and abysmally dull. The main purpose of the Bill is, I think, a good one, and the main principle of the Bill fairly easy to understand. The main purpose of the Bill is to provide improved benefits, the most important being widows' pensions, without additional burden on superannuation funds or on the rates, and without any increase in the rates of contributions. What the Bill really does is to redistribute the benefits. The improvements have, of course, to be paid for out of the superannuation funds, and most of the money will come from making the annual pension rather smaller. At the same time, incentives are being given to encourage folk to stay longer at work, which means that they will not draw pensions until a later age; and, therefore, the funds will save by not having to pay out pensions for those extra working years. That also helps to pay for the improvements.
Local government superannuation in this country has grown up gradually and comparatively recently. The foundation of the present system was laid in 1922 by the Local Government and Other Officers Superannuation Act of that year—a private Member's measure for which the late Sir Herbert Nield was responsible—which could be adopted by Resolution of a local authority, whose officers thus became entitled to superannuation as a right. This led naturally to a big growth of superannuation schemes, but they were still far from being universal. Up to 1939 every whole-time permanent officer in local government service received the benefits of superannuation as a result of the passing of the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, and the corresponding Scottish Act. These Acts crowned the efforts spread over thirty years of the National Association of Local Government officers which is now known formally as the National and Local Government Officers' Association, and more informally by its
940
nickname of "N.A.L.G.O.", to secure satisfactory superannuation arrangements for local government employees.
In this Bill we are taking another big step forward to improve the conditions of this great body of men and women, much of whose work is known to those many members of your Lordships' House who have personal experience of local government, a body of men and women whose quiet work touches upon almost every aspect of our daily lives and who deserve well of the country for the importance of their services. Fourteen years have passed since the Acts of 1937 became law, and of course nothing could be done to improve them during the war. After the war N.A.L.G.O. raised the question of further improvements with the associations of local authorities. Your Lordships will probably know what those associations are. There are four main bodies: the County Councils Association, the Association of Municipal Corporations, which in the course of the last few years has had the benefit of having the noble Lord, Lord Burden, and myself as office holders, the Urban District Councils Association and the Rural District Councils Association. These bodies cover all the local authorities in the country. There are similar associations in Scotland. In addition there are the London County Council and the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee who, because of their size and importance, were included in the discussions.
When the two sides had agreed on the main outline of the legislation required, a Working Party was set up, composed of members of the local authorities' associations and bodies to which I have referred, and officers of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, one of whom acted as Chairman. A corresponding Working Party was set up in Scotland. As a result, the proposals which form the basis of this measure have been agreed upon. In only one matter—and I shall say more about this later—did the Government take the initiative, and that is in the provision of incentives for the older worker to continue in service. Here I gratefully acknowledge the co-operation received from the associations and from N.A.L.G.O. The measure of agreement throughout has been very wide, though, naturally enough, the local authority associations have not felt able to accept all the suggestions of the associations

941
representing the employees. New points have continually cropped up, most of them of a comparatively minor character, to meet categories of people who would otherwise be left out, or service which would not be counted, contrary to the spirit behind this Bill. Both sides are now anxious that it should become law at the earliest possible time, and I am sure we may leave it to them to work the Bill when it becomes law in that same spirit, and with due regard to national as well as sectional interests.
Perhaps the most striking difference between this Bill and the Acts of 1937 is that the provisions setting out the details of the benefits are to be taken out of the Acts and will be promulgated in regulations to be approved by both Houses by way of Affirmative Resolution. This change follows what is now the normal procedure when voluminous and extremely complicated matters—and it is astonishing how complicated local government superannuation is—have to be dealt with. There is, moreover, a great advantage in doing this where there is so much detail and a progressive development of outlook, as with a matter like superannuation. Once details are all set down in an Act they can be altered only in an amending Act, but if they are brought into force by way of regulations it is a comparatively simple process to make amending regulations. Of course, in practice, as has always been the case, all those interested will be consulted first.
Your Lordships will be aware that some local authorities have their own Acts for superannuation of their employees. When the 1937 Act was passed, such authorities were required to modify their local schemes to fit in with the new Statute. The same will be necessary now, if all employees are to benefit from the improvements made possible by this Bill, and if the free interchange of employment between authorities and the general high level of local administration throughout the country are to be maintained. We have been trying to persuade these authorities of the advantages of giving up their local Acts and of adopting the new provisions in their entirety. I am glad that some of them are ready to do so, and I hope that in due course others will follow suit.
942
It would be ungracious if I did not pay tribute to those local Act authorities who have gone ahead of the existing law in the 1937 Acts and those who since 1948 have adopted provisions corresponding to the National Health Service superannuation scheme. It is the best practice here which the Bill seeks to make general. How far the existing law has lagged behind can best be illustrated by setting forth some of the changes which the Bill proposes to make.
Under the two Acts of 1937, when an employee retires he may, if he is in good health, allocate part of his pension to provide a pension for his widow. He is unable to do this if he is not in good health and in that event, or if he dies before retirement, his widow cannot get a pension from the superannuation fund in any circumstances. Under this Bill it is proposed to empower Ministers to make much wider provision for widows. The benefits envisaged are as follows: the employee will get a smaller benefit on retirement, but his widow will secure a pension in the event of his death while still at work at any time after he has qualified for a pension—that is, after ten years service; she will, of course, also get a pension if her husband dies after he has retired on pension. The amount of her pension will depend on that which her husband is receiving or had earned—it is intended to make it one-third. That is not all. An employee who ceases work through incapacity resulting from injury sustained in the actual discharge of his duty will now be able to get an injury allowance, and when he dies his widow will receive a pension. Where, however, the employee meets his death from injury in the discharge of his duty there is the alternative of a lump sum instead of a pension if the local authority think that will be best in the circumstances. These provisions for widows are the most important of the new legislation.
Since the passage of the 1937 legislation, which provides for all retirement benefits being given as pensions only, it has become generally agreed that it is advantageous to the retiring employee to be able to receive his benefit partly as a pension and partly as a lump sum. This would be very helpful, for example, if he wanted to buy a house. Accordingly the Bill provides that in future the retiring employee may receive his benefit in this

943
form. Bachelors and married men will receive the same rate of pension—though the actual amount will be smaller than at present, because it will be calculated on eightieths, instead of on sixtieths—buta married man will get a smaller lump sum as the price of providing a pension for his widow.
This illustrates a most important characteristic of the Bill, to which I referred at the beginning. It would obviously not have been difficult to provide increased benefits by increasing the contributions to be made by employers and employees, but, understandably, neither side was willing to make increased contributions; and the whole of the provisions of the Bill have therefore been designed, to use a technical phrase, to be actuarially equivalent to those in the 1937 Acts—that is to say, taken all round, the whole amount spent on benefits after the passage of the Bill should not be greater than the amount spent for a comparable number of employees of similar types under the two Acts of 1937. This is a most important feature, since many alternative schemes that might on the surface appear more attractive have the disadvantage that in one way or another they would increase the burden on the superannuation funds.
With negligible exceptions, none of the benefits of the two Acts of 1937 is available until the completion of ten years' service, though in the event of service terminating earlier the employee is generally entitled to a return of his contributions. It is proposed to provide by the regulations two short-service benefits available where more than five but less than ten years' service has been completed. In the event of retirement from ill-health in this period, the employee will be given a title to a single payment of a year's pay. In the event of his death within the same period, his legal personal representative will be given a similar title. At this stage I ought to mention that, in accordance with the usual practice, existing employees will be given an option of keeping their present superannuation rates or of going into the new arrangements under the Bill. The benefit of the option will be extended retrospectively to employees who have retired after September 30, 1950, or to the
944
employee's widow, if the pensioner has died after that date.
Section 7 of the Act of 1937 provides for compulsory retirement at the age of 65—that age has not been altered—but it also allows for further employment year by year without limit, though this extended service does not count for benefit. The section is, accordingly, not the bar to the employment of the elderly that might appear from its opening words, as your Lordships will appreciate from the fact that some 12,000 people above the age of 65 are still working for local authorities in England and Wales. Nevertheless, since no employee may earn additional pension after the age of 65 or after the completion of 40 years' service, whichever comes first, it does, to some extent, discourage elderly employees from remaining at work. Your Lordships will remember that it was in this matter, and this alone, that the Government stepped in, because of the importance they attach to extending the working life of the average man and woman. Under the Bill, an employee will be able to earn pension for 45 years or up to the age of 70, whichever period is completed first. This should afford a valuable incentive to the employee without making the employing authority unwilling to keep him on. It is important that the incentive offered to the employee should not be such as to make the employing authorities feel that, from their point of view, the continued employment of these elderly people is expensive in relation to the service they give. At present, as I have said, an employee can earmark part of his pension only when he retires, and only to provide a pension for his widow. He may, however, want to give his widow something more than she would get from a widow's pension, or to make provision for some other dependent. Under the Bill he will now be able to do this, and, moreover, without the necessity of retiring, provided, of course, that he is qualified for pension. This is another improvement which I hope will encourage an employee to remain longer at work.
Apart from these major points, the Bill provides also for various minor improvements, with which I do not wish to weary your Lordships. Any complex legislation, such as the Acts of 1937, inevitably shows minor defects in operation, or shows up cases of hardship or seeming injustice.

945
Accordingly, the opportunity is being taken in this Bill to correct a number of these, though none of them is really significant, save to a comparatively small group of persons immediately concerned, to whom of course they are highly significant. They have been agreed to by the associations I have just mentioned, and I will not take up your Lordships' time in dealing with that. There is one point that I should perhaps mention, because it is rather different in kind—that is, an amendment which will limit the provision for forfeiture of superannuation rights if an employee commits an offence or misbehaves. It limits forfeiture to cases where the offence or misbehaviour is related to the performance of the employee's duties, and it gives local authorities some discretion in connection with the imposition of the penalty. This, I think, mitigates what has been felt to be a somewhat harsh and undiscriminating provision.
I have already mentioned that some local authorities have their own Acts dealing with superannuation of their staff. There are several provisions in the Bill to meet different circumstances, but again I need not weary your Lordships by going into details. The principle is the same, to ensure that these local Act schemes come reasonably into line with the new arrangements, if they have not done so already, in those cases where the local authority prefer to retain their special position. The Bill gives the Minister power, should this be needed, to require a local authority to come into line. There are, in fact, twenty-two councils in England and Wales and two in Scotland that have complete Acts governing superannuation; thirteen more who have modified the 1937 Acts by substituting improved benefits akin to the National Health Service Scheme, and an unknown number who, usually in the body of more general legislation, have made particular provisions affecting the superannuation of their employees. The complexity of this Bill lies in the many details to meet the many different circumstances that arise, and to which this House will no doubt wish to give a more full consideration on Committee stage. But the principles behind it are few and simple, and I can recommend it with confidence to your Lordships as being in all essential respects an agreed measure,
946
a desirable measure and a desired measure, one to which I can confidently ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading this afternoon.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Mancroft.)
3.7 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we on this side of the House do not wish for a moment to disturb the harmony of the proceedings which have led up to the introduction of this Bill in another place. I understand that discussions have been going on for a great many years, and we are very glad that they have come to a culmination. This Bill will have achieved a remarkable thing if it can, as the noble Lord said, provide improved superannuation for local government employees without extra cost either to the employee or to the employing authority. I have read through the Bill. Like the noble Lord, I do not regard myself as in any way an authority on local government superannuation, but it seemed to me that a number of the clauses, if they mean anything at all, must result in increased cost, either to the superannuation fund or to the local authority. However, that will possibly come out in another stage of the proceedings. I do not wish to say anything about the details of this Bill. My noble friend Lord Burden, who is an authority on this subject, has something to say, and we shall listen to him with great interest. But I should like to draw the attention of the House to the increasing complexity of this matter from the point of view of the person who does try to understand what he is doing.
The noble Lord has referred to the considerable number of local authorities (I think he went up to something like fifty) who have their own Acts of Parliament dealing with superannuation, and an unknown number of others who have these powers wrapped up in other legislation. In addition, there are, as noble Lords will see from the last page of this Bill, I think, twenty-three Acts of Parliament dealing with superannuation and, I imagine, a considerable number of regulations. Now we have this additional Bill which will, I am sure, pass before very long, and under which further regulations are to be made. Indeed, I was interested to hear the noble Lord

947
make a virtue of the fact that these provisions will not form part of the Bill but will come in regulations to be made under this Bill. That is somewhat of a change of tone, compared with some of the speeches which we used to hear in the past about "putting things in the Bill" as against making them the subject of regulations. I was glad to hear a complete justification of the procedure which, in the past, we on this side have felt it necessary to adopt in these measures. The point remains, however, that there will be a large number of separate Acts of Parliament, all dealing with the subject of local government superannuation in one form or another, and a large number of regulations.
As I have said, it will be increasingly difficult for anyone who is interested in this matter to find his way about all these Acts of Parliament. I would respectfully suggest to the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack that probably the time has arrived when this subject might receive an examination from his Department, with a view to seeing whether the whole thing cannot be simplified, or at any rate consolidated, so that if we want to know what is the law on the subject we shall not have to wander through a large number of Acts of Parliament and regulations in order to do so. I realise that it is not going to be an easy task, but I am sure that the noble and learned Lord is quite capable of dealing with it, and it will be a great boon to many people, including local government officers themselves, if it is made easier for them to ascertain what their rights are.
With those few observations I want to give a general welcome to this Bill. It will, of course, be examined in this House, as it has been carefully examined in another place, but I feel bound to say that in another place the matter was dealt with so reasonably on both sides that a good many of the points that it might have been necessary to raise have been dealt with. As a result, I imagine that it will not be necessary to trouble your Lordships with many details during the later stages of the Bill.
3.12 p.m.
LORD BURDEN: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for his clear, concise and courteous
948
explanation on this Bill. It is, I venture to think, a non-Party Bill and should not give rise to any Party controversy. However, not in any way as a matter of reproach, I should like to mention that proposals to amend the 1937 Act were discussed informally by the National and Local Government Officers Association with officials of the Ministry as long ago as 1946. There were many difficulties to be overcome and I am very happy that the Ministry of Housing and Local Government convened a Conference in October, 1951, at which, as was mentioned by the noble Lord, a Working Party was set up to examine concrete proposals in detail. I venture to think that this Bill is a very satisfactory result of the labours of that Working Party. I should like to express my thanks to the representatives of the associations of local authorities for the broad-minded and sympathetic way in which they have examined and agreed with many of the proposals submitted to them, and particularly I should like to say how indebted we are to the Minister of Housing and Local Government and his officers for the help given in putting these proposals into legislative shape and form.
Broadly, the Bill brings the superannuation arrangements for local government officers into line with those now obtaining in the Civil Service and the health services, and for the staffs employed by the electricity and gas boards. At the same time, as Lord Mancroft said, the opportunity has been taken to effect some minor adjustments in the superannuation provision for the staff of local authorities, and I think I am correct in saying that all the proposals in the Bill have been approved by the associations representing the employing local authorities. I think it is only fair to mention that the proposals as framed are not intended to place any further charge on local authorities—I think the word "appreciable" is used somewhere or other.
My Lords, the first Act dealing with superannuation for those employed by local authorities was the result of desperate action on the part of N.A.L.G.O., and it was a Private Member's Bill introduced in another place. The Act was permissive in character—in other words, superannuation provision was not made compulsory. To improve my education

949
I have recently read the report of the debate on this Bill—and incidentally it was very good reading. If your Lordships will allow me, I should like to quote one or two sentences from it. These are the words:
"It is the case, unfortunately, that the preserve of local government officers is no longer inviolate. There is a hungry wolf, with a heavy paw, in the shape of the business man, who is continually prospecting among local government officers to see if he cannot find some whom he can attract to his own service, thinking their abilities are being wasted in their present occupation. It is a fact that a good number of men have been attracted from public service into commercial life by the prospect of substantially increased remuneration."
These are the words I would particularly call attention to:
"Happily, money is not everything to a great many people, and many who enter the public service cannot be induced to leave it by the most tempting offers, because they are proud of their work, they love it, and they would not exchange it for anything else, especially for work of a character which is unfamiliar to them. But it is necessary to make these officers as comfortable as possible, and to give them every inducement to stay."
I am not sure whether your Lordships will be surprised or otherwise when I mention that those were the words of Mr. Neville Chamberlain, who later became Prime Minister of this country.
As the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, said, a number of local authorities adopted the provisions of the 1922 Act, but the position was far from satisfactory, as the Royal Commission on Local Government, which reported in 1929, said, in these words:
"We are of opinion…that the local government service would benefit if the facilities for interchangeability were enlarged. This, however, depends upon the more general adoption of a uniform scheme of superannuation."
The Hadow Committee was even more emphatic, because in paragraph 115 of its Report it stated:
"It has to be recognised that the absence of a superannuation scheme in some areas is an obstacle to the free movement of officers between authorities.…Compulsory superannuation for officers was recommended by the Departmental Committee on the Superannuation of Local Government Officers (1928). In our view this is essential to the welfare of the service and we hope that the Committee's recommendations will be carried out at the earliest possible opportunity."
That was in 1934. The officers had to wait until 1937 for an Act which made superannuation provision compulsory. In
950
this Bill, as the noble Lord has said, further steps are proposed to bring the existing provisions up to the level that I have already mentioned—those in the Civil Service and public bodies. For my part, and echoing the words of my noble friend Lord Silkin, I think I can say on behalf of my colleagues that we welcome this proposal and will do whatever is possible to help in the passing of the Bill.
There are, however, one or two points I propose to raise on the Committee stage of the Bill. Some of them have already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. I can assure him that what I have to say will be said in no unfriendly spirit, but simply in ail endeavour to illustrate some of the points which have, so to speak, been left in the air without adequate explanation in the other place. I feel sure that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, will understand that I do not in any way expect a reply this afternoon. The first point is the clarification of the superannuation rights of the staff of a clerk of the peace, where that office is separated from that of clerk of the county council. The second point is the forfeiture of the right, in certain circumstances, to a refund of superannuation contributions. The third point is the loss of certain superannuation rights on interchange. The fourth point is the bringing into line with the provisions of this Bill of the superannuation arrangements in local Acts. May I conclude by again assuring the noble Lord in charge of this Bill of my desire—and I believe the desire of my colleagues—to be helpful and co-operative, and again express to him (and I hope he will convey it to the Minister) my appreciation and thanks, on behalf of the local government service, for the improvements and adjustments which are contained in this Bill.
3.22 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am grateful to the two noble Lords opposite for the extremely friendly and courteous way in which they have received this Bill. The four detailed points of which the noble Lord, Lord Burden, has just given me notice will, of course, be looked into carefully, and I will try, at the Committee stage, to clear up any doubts which may still be in the noble Lord's mind. The point regarding complexity which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin,

951
meets, I am sure, with the greatest possible sympathy from noble Lords on this side of the House, particularly from one who has been trying for the last fortnight to understand some of the niceties of local government superannuation. There are those who read detective stories, and there are those who indulge in mental exercise with the aid of crossword puzzles. I believe there are even civil servants who actually read local government superannuation Acts in order to keep their mental equipment up to date. The complexities to which the noble Lord refers have been in existence for a long time. The noble Lord asked me about consolidation. I will consult the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack and the Minister, but from what I can remember of the results of inquiries which I have made in the past on this subject, if consolidation is possible it will be a Herculean task, and it will take a long, long time.
The only other point on which the noble Lord questioned me was the matter of extra cost. I believe that, reading one or two clauses of the Bill by themselves, it does look as if it would inevitably involve further cost. I understand from mathematical experts, however, that actuarially this is not so. While it is not possible to work out exactly what the change will cost, I am advised that it is unlikely that it will be any appreciable sum at all. With those few words, and once again thanking noble Lords for their helpful reception of the Bill and their expressions of good will, I would express the hope that by the time the Bill becomes an Act we shall have succeeded in making it even better than it now is.
On Question, Bill read 2a; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATION (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
3.25 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. It is now just short of ten years since the Education Act, 1944, was passed, and there have already been two amending Acts. This, therefore, is the third attempt to improve and clarify that main Statute. There are certain clauses in the present Bill which have assumed very great importance in that they deal with the vexed question—though it is not as vexed as it used to be, I am glad to say—of the voluntary schools. If your Lordships will look at the Bill you will see that Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 8 deal with that question. Now Clause 1 amends the definition of "displaced pupils." That definition was originally given under Section 104 of the main Act. As your Lordships are already aware, Section 104 was inserted in the principal Act to cover cases in which the establishment of a proposed new aided or special agreement school had been shown to the satisfaction of the Minister to be due to the need for providing education for a substantial number of displaced pupils. The section goes on to define what is meant by displaced pupils, and, broadly speaking, it covers pupils who would have attended some other aided or special agreement school, but cannot continue to do so because that school has been reorganised or else substantially reduced in size.
We all appreciate the difficulty of the subject with which we are dealing. I think it is right to say that any Government who intend to deal with it are not standing on the edge of a precipice but are walking on a very narrow plank. In connection with this question, it is easy—and I say this with the particular difficulties clearly in my mind—to make to one side concessions which may seem fair in themselves, but which, in fact, completely upset the balance of agreement or compromise that has been so wisely achieved during the last generation or so. Let me make it clear at once that there is no intention whatsoever of altering or extending the general conditions covering grants to schools for displaced pupils. What we are doing is

953
simply to amend the definition of pupils who can be counted towards grant, once the eligibility of the school has been settled. I want to make that very clear.
While it is possible to amend the definition of a pupil without great controversy, it becomes a very different matter if we start amending the definition of a school. That is, I think, one of the main points of difficulty that may crop up during the course of the debate which we shall have to-day. One of the main problems facing the promoters of voluntary schools is the need for schools on new housing estates where there has been a shift of population. Schools of this type can be aided under the present definition, if the pupils are moved in blocks of a substantial size, because this enables the size of the school in the old area to be reduced. But, in actual practice, that is not always the case. In these days I think it would be true to say that, with the increasing school population, the pupils come—though perhaps not often—in small groups which do not affect one way or another the capacity of the old school. It is to meet this point that we propose to extend the definition to cover any pupils who move as the result of housing or town and country planning developments, and who would have attended an aided or special agreement school in the old area. That is the interest and the purpose of Clause 1.
Clause 2 deals with a slightly different problem. At present, a local education authority can be authorised under the 1946 Act, which was an amending Act to the main 1944 Act, to pay for the enlargement of a voluntary controlled school if that enlargement is needed wholly, or even mainly, to replace accommodation in some other voluntary school. The sort of case contemplated in that Act is one in which there is a group of schools, one or more of which is to be closed on account of bad premises. If it were not for the 1946 Act, the enlargement would have to be provided wholly at the expense of the voluntary body. That Act enabled the enlargement to be made from public funds. But there may be no convenient school which can be enlarged, and it may be that what is wanted is a new school altogether, centrally situated, that will take the place of one or more other voluntary schools. That possibility is
954
not covered by the 1946 Act. We propose, with the full agreement of the local education authorities, to cover it in this Bill.
Clause 3 carries this principle a stage further. The enlargement of a controlled school under the 1946 Act, and the provision of a new controlled school under Clause 2 of this Bill, assume that some accommodation in other voluntary schools has been surrendered. There are, however, quite a number of cases in which it is educationally right, and economical, for a local education authority to enlarge an existing controlled secondary school in preference to building a new county school, even when accommodation (and this is the point) has not in fact been given up. I do not think that cases of this character will occur very frequently, and generally they will arise in the field of grammar schools, especially where there is a rise in the school population; but we feel it is right and desirable to cover this arrangement, and no objection has been raised on any hand to the proposals. I turn next to Clause 8 because it deals with the same aspect of our problem—voluntary schools. Owing to building shortages, the promoters and managers of schools have sometimes found it best—indeed, they have sometimes been driven to this—to take and adapt existing houses, instead of building new schools. The wording of the principal Act does not allow such cases to count for grant under present legislation, and we have therefore sought to put this right, with retrospective effect, by substituting the word "provision" for "construction." Clause 8 also deals with a minor difficulty in the granting of loans by the Minister, but with this matter I do not think I need bother your Lordships.
I pass to the second group of clauses, Clauses 6, 10 and 15, and the first Amendment in the Schedule. These are intended to correct anomalies under the principal Act and were recommended, though not necessarily in precisely the form in which we have included them in this Bill, by the Local Government Manpower Committee set up by the last Government in 1948, which included representatives of the Ministry and the local education authorities. Clause 6 empowers local education authorities to pay in full the fees of pupils for whom

955
places are necessary at independent or non-maintained schools. I think your Lordships will agree that that is a desirable provision. The clause implies no change of practice on the part of the authorities, but gives the necessary legislative sanction to what is being done. Clause 10 deals with school attendance orders. I think your Lordships are aware that under the present Act a local authority which is satisfied that a child is not receiving efficient education has to serve upon the parent a school attendance order, but before doing so has to give the parent an opportunity of naming a particular school. The Local Government Manpower Committee recommended that the education authority should choose the school to be attended, subject only to the right of appeal by the parent. We have not felt able to accept that recommendation, but we have improved the wording of the section and have put a limit of fourteen days on the parent's right to name a school to be included in the school attendance order. Your Lordships will realise that there are a variety of reasons for nonattendance at school. In some cases it may be a perfectly bona fide disagreement about the school to which the child is to go; in many other cases it is simply a lack of care. Your Lordships can take it that this provision is intended to deal with cases of the latter kind.
Clause 15 reduces the period of public notices for new schools and closures from three to two months. This is a compromise. The Local Government Manpower Committee recommended a reduction to one month. We felt that while the existing period of three months is on the long side, it would be going too far to reduce it to one month. Therefore, we have adopted the compromise of two months. I think your Lordships will agree that while that increases the period, it does not make it too long. If your Lordships will turn to the first Amendment in the Schedule, you will see that this deals with a curious anomaly in the principal Act. Section 13 of the Act requires that, once proposals for a new school have been approved by the Minister, the local authority or the promoters are bound to proceed with their plans. But circumstances can change, and often change considerably, and then it would be foolish for an authority to carry
956
on as proposed. This Amendment, therefore, breaks what I might call this statutory chain of duties.
I think I need not detain your Lordships for long on the rest of the Bill. Clauses 4 and 5, in which some of your Lordships may have a particular interest, places beyond doubt the duty of the local authorities to secure an efficient dental service by a staff of school dentists or by making arrangements for specialist treatment with a hospital. Your Lordships are no doubt aware that the school dental service has fallen sadly behind in numbers lately, and it may be necessary to resort to many methods for ensuring that children receive proper dental treatment. I should like to say that it is the policy of the Government—I believe it to be the policy of all Governments—to rely primarily on building up an efficient school dental service. Clause 7 extends to further education the provision for recoupment by local education authorities of expenditure incurred in providing education for pupils for whom they are not responsible.
There remain two other clauses which perhaps I ought to mention. Clause 11 enables a local education authority to bring a truant child direct before the juvenile court, instead of bringing the parent before a magistrates' court and getting a directive from that court. I think your Lordships will agree that, in some circumstances, that may well be the better course to take. Then there is Clause 12, which was added in another place. This clause will make it possible for teachers to serve on children's committees. I should perhaps offer a word or two of explanation here. Under the Local Government Act, 1933, and the London Government Act, 1939, as amended by the Education Act, 1946, teachers in maintained and assisted schools were prevented from serving on any committees of a local authority except an education committee and certain other committees, such as mental deficiency committees. Now that children's committees have been set up, it is only reasonable that the ban on teachers' being elected to serve on them should be removed.
There is one further point to which I would venture to refer, although it is not actually in the Bill. I hope that I may have an opportunity of discussing it with your Lordships at a later stage. Your

957
Lordships may have noticed that on the Committee stage in the other place a clause was moved to make it possible for local education authorities to allow pupils, for whom no transport arrangements to schools had been made, to occupy vacant places on a school bus, and to charge them reasonable fares. I am sure your Lordships will agree that, if it is possible to agree with local education authorities, and other authorities as to this, it is a most desirable arrangement. As I have said, I hope to say something about this matter on the Committee stage of the Bill.
I should like to conclude by saying that the most important clause of this Bill, as of all preceding Education Bills, must depend on a spirit of good will and co-operation on the part of all concerned. We have heard a great deal of the immense task that the Roman Catholics, in particular, have had to face in providing new schools for their community. My right honourable friend asks me to say that she fully recognises those efforts which they have made and the contribution that they are making to the whole educational system of this country. We are all aware that building and other problems sometimes make it difficult, if not impossible, to accept in full their proposals for new schools. Delays in their provision are bound to be irksome. Nevertheless, the Government are as determined now as they were in 1944 to ensure that the voluntary schools shall play a part in our educational system, and they are prepared to do all they properly can to help. They believe that the present measure will be a valuable instrument in achieving this end; and they would remind your Lordships that every provision in this Bill that affects voluntary schools does, in fact, give an improvement in their position.
It is just on fifty years since we had the original compromise about religious education. I would say—perhaps it is unnecessary to say it in your Lordships' House—that the essence of compromise is that concessions to one side are quite impossible without considering the views of the other side. I know that noble Lords who speak for Roman Catholics, who are worried on a certain point in this Bill, would wish no more than I would to say or do anything to upset the basic agreement that exists, which represents a
958
great British achievement of the last fifty years, in reducing a subject that was surrounded by the bitterest controversy to a point where, though we admittedly have some disagreements and difficulties, and have our amendments to legislation, and so on, we are all resolved to maintain the essential balance of that compromise and understanding. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Earl De La Warr.)
3.45 p.m.
EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I am sure that all your Lordships are grateful to the noble Earl for the clear lucid and careful statement which he has just made. I observed that he stuck rather more closely to his notes than he normally does. I cannot blame him, for this is a technical and difficult topic, on which, no doubt, it is quite excusable that the speech should be not entirely extempore. This is a remarkable topic. I cannot go back as far as fifty years, but it is, I am sorry to say, over thirty years since I first became a Member of the other place, and certainly at that time—whether there had been a compromise as long ago as fifty years or not, I do not know—this subject was surrounded with difficulties and considerable Party bitterness. So it continued, as any Member for Lancaster will tell you, for a considerable time. It was one of the great achievements of the Coalition Government, and of Mr. Butler in particular, with Mr. Chuter Ede as his able lieutenant, to be able to introduce this Act of 1944. I was entrusted by Mr. Butler with a small part concerning the Part III education authorities, which was by no means the most easy part of the matter. It is a matter of great satisfaction that to-day, in a perfectly calm atmosphere, without any bitterness of any sort, the question of these schools can be discussed. I am grateful to the noble Earl for the part that he has played in regard to this matter, both now and in the past.
For my part, having looked carefully at this Bill, I have n a doubt that the House will give it a Second Reading. I thank the noble Earl for various provisions, which I feel are undoubtedly improvements, in the Bill. I propose to discuss with the House merely one matter, and to discuss it rather on the basis of making an appeal to the noble Earl to see whether, between now and

959
the Committee stage, he will look again at Clause 1 (perhaps we can have discussions with him, or with the Minister, who I am sure is always ready to meet Members of Parliament) with a view to clearing up an unfortunate point which is standing in the way of that sort of agreement which I believe is desirable in a Bill of this kind. I am not going to discuss any of the clauses of the Bill other than Clause 1, and only a somewhat narrow aspect of that clause. Clause 1 deals with the old difficulty about displaced pupils. You may look at this from the point of view of a definition of "displaced pupils," or, as it always seemed to me, a definition of the words "proposed school." When does a school cease to be a proposed school and become an actual school?
The history of the matter is this. When the Education Bill, which became the Education Act, 1944, left the House of Commons, the definition of "displaced pupils" in relation to a proposed school—because it is in that sense, and only in that sense, that you have to consider it—contained a phrase which said:
"in consequence of their parents having ceased to reside in the area served by…"
and so on. When that Bill came to this House the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, who was in charge of it (and let me make it plain that I am not making the slightest suggestion against the good faith of the noble Earl: anybody who knows him would think any such suggestion quite ridiculous) proposed an Amendment to that clause. He said, and no doubt he was instructed to say, that the Amendment was of a drafting character which clarified, without altering the intention, the definition of "displaced pupil," and so, of course, everybody believed. But, in fact, the Amendment had the effect of leaving out altogether from the definition of "displaced pupil" the phrase,
"in consequence of their parents having ceased to reside in the area served by the school."
In the result, I think there can be no doubt that this drafting Amendment, which was merely intended to clarify, had the effect of making a substantial alteration of the original proposal. That alteration has been, as noble Lords who are interested in this matter know, the subject
960
of heartburning and some little controversy.
When, in 1951, a General Election was looming ahead of us, both Parties made statements in regard to this matter. The pronouncement made by the Labour Party was perhaps rather more specific and precise than that made by the Conservative Party; but both great Parties made pronouncements as to what they intended to do. In the result, of course, it became important to consider not what the Labour Party had promised but what the Conservative Party had said. Consequently, in January, 1952, the Minister of Education circulated a memorandum containing proposals for amending legislation. With regard to voluntary schools that memorandum contained a passage—I am shortening it, but I think not unfairly, and I can read it if it is necessary—which included this sentence:
"It is therefore proposed to amend the definition of displaced pupil so as to include pupils who have attended, or would in the opinion of the Minister of Education have attended, an existing aided or special agreement school if that school had not ceased to be available for them in consequence of their having ceased to reside in the area served by the school as a result of the movement, voluntary or compulsory, of population in any way consequent upon action taken, or proposed to be taken, under the enactment relating to housing or town and country planning."
So it came about that on February 12, 1952, the Minister arranged to meet a deputation representing the Catholic hierarchy. I am not a Catholic; I am a member of the Church of England, and therefore on this matter I do not speak from the particular religious point of view which the members of the Roman Catholic faith would perhaps adopt. But I do speak about this seriously, because I feel that a very important issue is here involved.
It has been my lot as a Minister for many years, particularly when I was Minister of National Insurance, to receive a large number of deputations. It is always wise in receiving a deputation to try not to tie yourself down to any definite proposals. If you do tie yourself down with a deputation, and if it becomes necessary for you to retire from the position you have taken up, then I conceive it to be incumbent upon you to call that deputation before you again and to explain to them that you have made a mistake and that you cannot make good

961
the promise that you gave. It cannot, I venture to think, be right simply to get up in the House of Commons and, without any further discussion with anybody, introduce a Bill in fiat contradiction of the statements which you made to the deputation. That, it seems to me, owing no doubt to error, is what has happened, and the appeal which I am making to the noble Earl is this. It would be very much better (there is not very much money at stake here, I understand) if the Minister could be induced to make good the statement which she made, in the utmost good faith, to that deputation. I propose to the noble Earl that, between now and the Committee stage—and this is why I am mentioning it to-day—he should look into this matter; and, of course, he will have ample opportunity of discussing it with the Minister. I feel certain that the Minister will be prepared to meet some of us who care about this matter, and the only satisfactory solution is to get an agreement by consent. That is what I should like to bring about.
As I said, the Roman Catholic hierarchy went to the Minister and were anxious to get various concessions. The Minister made it quite plain that she would not be prepared to grant certain concessions for which they asked. She made it quite plain, and was perfectly right in so doing, that the whole question was covered by the words "in the opinion of the Minister." There is no matter of right about this. It is simply that the Minister should have power to consider whether or not a particular school should or should not receive a grant. She also made it quite plain that the legislation was not going to be retrospective. What she said, if a school had been finally dealt with and completed, the accounts closed and the children were there, and it was an established school, was "I am not prepared to go back. If this has happened between the passing of the Act in 1944, and this present Bill which amends the Act, I am not prepared to make grants, nor have I even the power to make grants, in respect of such schools."
At once there arises the question, What is the dividing line? What is retrospective? With regard to that, the Minister made a perfectly categorical statement which she read out and which no doubt
962
had been most carefully considered. It was this:
"The new definition would not be retrospective in the sense that grant on completed projects could be reassessed: grant claims on schemes in progress or"—
this is the other category—
"for which accounts had not been closed would be eligible for review in the tight of the new definition."
Your Lordships will observe that there are two categories there. First, there is a scheme that is still in progress. Second, if the scheme does nor come within that category and cannot be said to be in progress because it is completed, it still comes in if the accounts have not been closed—that is to say, if the accounts have not been paid. I think the words can mean nothing else. That was the undertaking which the Minister gave.
LORD LLEWELLIN: May I interrupt the noble and learned Earl? Is he saying that if a part of a builder's account is still outstanding the Minister's words would cover that case?
EARL JOWITT: Certainly. Suppose that, for the mere sake of qualifying for the grant, you held up an account which otherwise would have been paid—I am not seeking to include such a case as that. The position is made quite plain in a letter from an official of the Ministry who was present at the meeting. The letter makes the very point which the noble Lord has just made:
"I think what Mr. Leadbetter intended to suggest was that there is clearly a distinction between the Minister's assurance that the proposed new legislation would apply to schools for which the accounts had not been formally closed, and any suggestion that the accounts of a school for displaced pupils should be kept indefinitely in suspense, solely in order to qualify for the benefits of the new legislation."
I should not myself press the Minister to extend the concession in the latter category because that would be to take advantage of a technicality. If, on the other hand, the accounts have not been formally closed, I should follow the definition of the official of the Ministry of Education and say that that does come, and was intended to come, precisely within the Minister's formula. If that be thought not to be so, surely the course for the Minister to take would have been to re-summon the deputation and state that she wanted in some way to

963
qualify what she had said. What I think is quite wrong is to do nothing of that sort but to get up and introduce a Bill in the House of Commons, posing a wholly new criterion. Perhaps I may be allowed to quote some words of the Parliamentary Secretary in introducing the Second Reading. He said (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons. Vol. 509, Col. 110):
"If I may repeat the words from my notes, the crucial question is whether the school has been established and is being maintained."
That may or may not be a good test, but the point is that it is a wholly different test from that propounded by the Minister with regard to the accounts not having been closed; and that is what has given rise to this trouble.
I suggest to the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, that by far the most satisfactory way of dealing with this is not by seeking to move an Amendment or anything of that sort; I would beg him to look into this matter and to consult the Minister about it, in order that he may see exactly what is involved—I believe, as I have said, that it is not a very large sum. I beg him to consider, in consultation with the Minister, whether or not it is possible to introduce words into the Bill to meet the case. It would not be difficult to find words that are appropriate. If we may have talks with the noble Earl or the Minister, we shall be most ready to help to find a form of words which would be appropriate. That is the right way to deal with the matter, and I hope the noble Earl will be prepared to meet us in this respect. Now, my Lords, I have put the case fully, and I have made it on this one point only. I think the Bill certainly deserves our support, and we shall give it our support—and much more readily if that which has become an unfortunate point of contention between the Parties can be satisfactorily dealt with. I hope that between now and the next stage, the noble Earl will be able to go into the matter with us in an attempt to arrive at a satisfactory solution of these problems.
4.3 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should like to join with the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, in thanking the noble Earl for the clear way in which he has explained the purpose of
964
this Bill. I wish to refer to two clauses, Clauses 4 and 5, which deal with dental treatment for schoolchildren. I was pleased to hear from the noble Lord that it is the intention of the Government to encourage the formation of the school dental service to the utmost, but I think it may perhaps take some time before that can be brought to fruition. I believe there are at the present time about 1,000 dentists, or the equivalent of 1,000 dentists, in the school service. I am told we shall want another 1,000 before the service is complete—that is to say, to provide a service of one dentist to about 3,000 children. This can be done under the Bill by the regional hospital board or the board of governors of a teaching hospital.
Another problem is the building of enough clinics for the school dentists to do their work. At the present time, with the restrictions on capital expenditure, it is difficult to see much hope of that being done in the immediate future. I suggest to the Government, therefore, that until the school dental service is available in full strength the Minister might encourage the employment by local education authorities of the general dental service available in the rest of the country. I think it would be wrong to leave this matter entirely to the parents, and that a great deal of good work might be done if the authorities would make use of the general dental service. Perhaps this matter could be referred back to the local education authorities. That is all I wish to say on the Bill, except that I support it on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches.
4.6 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, the first expression of any Roman Catholic speaker on this Bill must be one of gratitude. We are indeed grateful to this Government, as we should have been to any other Government, for providing this relief. The truth is that we have for some time been feeling the pinch very acutely. Although I do not think it occurred to any one of us to doubt that we should be able to fulfil the programme which we had set before ourselves in 1944, yet when you come to consider that building costs are estimated to have risen two and a half to three times over prewar costs; when you consider the very

965
high standard rightly and correctly set by the Ministry for the building of new schools (many of the old public schools at which your Lordships were educated would not pass any modern inspector of school buildings); and when you consider, too, the great delays in getting anything built at all in these days, your Lordships will appreciate that we have been very much stretched to maintain our programme of school building. It was, therefore, a great consolation to me to hear from the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, that this problem of school building is appreciated.
In 1950 the Ministry of Education were good enough to work out for us what approximate figure we should have to envisage for the completion of our programme. It was £51 million—and I am told that that figure relates only to private schools and does not take into account the grammar schools and technical schools which we intend to build. That is a large sum for a community which is a poor one with very few wealthy members. The relief afforded to us by this Bill will amount perhaps to £2,500,000. For that, many thanks: we will endeavour to carry on in a big task for which I am quite sure there is much sympathy in your Lordships' House. Our gratitude is, of course, tempered by a measure of disappointment. I will not traverse again the ground that has been covered by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, in his account of the negotiations between the Ministry and the Roman Catholic Bishops, but, so far as I have been able to learn, the noble and learned Earl's account was strictly correct. I will say no more than that hopes were raised and have been grievously disappointed. I share the desire of the noble and learned Earl to see whether by some conference, perhaps with my noble friend, Lord De La Warr, perhaps with the right honourable lady, the Minister of Education, we cannot yet arrive at some solution that will be acceptable to a Committee of your Lordships' House or, at any rate, even if we cannot do that, succeed in understanding each other better than we do at present. I would not in any way attempt to pre-judge those conversations. Willingly, and with relief, I pass from that topic.
There is one oilier matter that is troubling us in connection with the new
966
definition of "displaced pupils." I mention the matter because, though we may not be able to obtain any satisfaction on the present Bill, it is a matter for which we shall have to go on asking and pressing. The definition of "displaced pupil" in the Bill before your Lordships is a very great improvement on the wording of the Selborne Amendment. It is not perhaps quite so good as the original wording of the 1944 Act, as it passed another place, because in the 1944 definition emphasis was placed not upon the moving pupil but upon the moving parent. May I explain to your Lordships just where our difficulty lies? Mr. and Mrs. Hogan move up from the docks to a new housing estate and they bring with them Bridget anal Michael. Bridget and Michael are aged twelve and thirteen respectively and they are ready to go to a technical or grammar school. Unfortunately, owing to the time taken to get anything planned and built nowadays, the Roman Catholics have not a grammar school ready for them to go to. They are told, "We are building one. The site has been arranged and has been blessed by the Bishop, but we have not got the grammar school actually going." Therefore the Hogan children cannot go to it. Under the present definition, we cannot get any grant on account of those Hogans.
What else? The Hogan couple celebrate their arrival at the housing estate by giving birth to little Teresa, and Teresa is coming on. In eleven years' time she will be going to a technical or grammar school. After all, the fact that she is demanding technical or grammar school education on the housing estate is simply and solely a consequence of Mr. and Mrs. Hogan's original move there. But little Teresa cannot possibly count as a "displaced pupil." Therefore we should have preferred a still wider definition of "displaced pupil" so as to include the parents of a Catholic family who have moved into a district. We do not mean to include, and we are not, obviously, trying to include, an indefinite series of unborn children, but we are trying to provide for the establishment of a Roman Catholic community in a new housing estate. That is a point on which we have not yet succeeded in getting any satisfaction at all, and on

967
which we are anxious to have some satisfaction if in any way possible. Otherwise, we feel that our technical schools and our grammar schools are not going to get any displaced pupils grant at all and the whole burden of their establishment will fall upon us.
It is often said, and I am afraid it is true enough: "The Roman Catholics are always asking for something." Perhaps I have asked for enough, but I am going to ask for one thing more. I am going to ask that the spirit which animated the concluding remarks of my noble friend, Lord De La Warr, should be more widespread in this country and, in particular, that it should become more prevalent among the local education authorities. There are, thank Heaven! many local education authorities with whom we are on happy and co-operative terms, but there are also some who, to a greater or lesser extent, seem to be perpetually grudging and hostile in their attitude towards the dual system. I am anxious to see that spirit die. We on our side have our own touchiness, our own defensive attitude, which perhaps sometimes impedes co-operation; but, for the good of the education of all our children, we are most anxious for better relations all over the country. After all, the dual system of education is not a mere compromise forced on an unwilling State by pressure from sectional interests: it is part of our British way of life. It is a free system of education. It is untidy, I daresay, and it is inefficient; but it is free. It is the only way in which the majority of parents can get any choice at all in the schooling of their children. How greatly we value our right to choose our children's schools! By maintaining the dual system we give parents some choice—call it a poor choice, if you will, but some choice. That is a feature of our British way of life which I am perfectly sure no one, whatever his sectional views may be, would wish to alter.
4.20 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, I do not wish to bother the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, but I want to take up the point raised by my noble friend Lord Amulree with regard to dental treatment. I have a special interest in dental treatment inasmuch as a good many years ago, when I was one of the consultant medical officers to the London County
968
Council, I actually started the first dental clinic in London, at Blackfriars, and it has continued up to the present time. I think it is difficult to over-estimate the value of dental treatment for children. Before teeth were attended to in the way they now are the health of children suffered very seriously indeed from the condition of tooth decay, and worse, that was frequently seen when children were inspected in schools. That is how I came to bring the matter to the notice of the London County Council, who acknowledged the necessity for setting up a school clinic. It is one of the great changes in the health of the children in this country that for the most part their teeth are at least much better now than they were in those other days.
But I want to say to my noble friend Lord Amulree that when dental clinics were started we did not first of all think of the new building; we just took a house and used the ordinary rooms in that house for the work of a dental clinic. It had to be a large house and it had to provide a room for the children to wait. There is no great difficulty in finding such accommodation; it certainly can still be found. I do not suggest that the first thing is to get a new building; the first thing to get is the dental service which is set out in Clauses 4 and 5, because I am sure that that will be of great benefit. It is one of the misfortunes that have overtaken us since the war that, for various reasons, partly in connection with the establishment of the National Health Service, the number of school dentists at one time decreased very greatly indeed, to such a point, in fact, that children's teeth were not being looked after properly. In many areas the situation has now changed and school dentists are being appointed by education authorities and are doing their work adequately. But we need more than we have at the present time.
The Bill in its present form provides that dental treatment shall be available in primary and secondary schools and for children undergoing further education in a school or county college maintained by the education authority where free dental treatment can be provided. That is to be done by dentists engaged, whether whole-time or part-time, at the expense of the local authority. Secondly, it is to be done under arrangements made with the

969
regional hospital board or the board of governors of a teaching hospital within the meaning of the National Health Act, 1946. It is important that as far as possible the work should be confined to those two groups of people, and any work which is done outside of that by dentists privately employed should be carefully supervised, because unless dentists are carefully selected it is by no means certain that they are necessarily accustomed to doing work for children and know the technique.
It is most important that children's teeth should be looked after adequately, so that they do not at an early age have to get rid of their ordinary natural teeth, which, so to speak, are provided as part of their bodies, and have to be provided with artificial teeth which unfortunately at the present time such large numbers of people have. It should be the rare exception in the future that artificial teeth are provided, and it should be the normal procedure that sound teeth are guaranteed to every child in the community, with the exception, of course, of those who are stricken by serious disease which undermines their health and constitution. In the normal course every child ought to be guaranteed the inheritance of good sound teeth. Undoubtedly, that will make a great difference in the health of children, in their resistance to disease, in their physical development and, correlated with that, in their mental and intellectual health also. I believe that the proper safeguarding of the health and of the teeth is one of the most important things that we can do for our children. The great task of the medical and dental professions at the schools is to see that at the time when the child leaves school or college it does so with a better prospect of good health and a better prospect of a long, vigorous and useful life than ever before.
I want to ask the Minister whether he will give an assurance that in cases where it is quite impossible to get a dental service arranged in a particular area, or to get dentists appointed by the regional hospital board, he will see that there is adequate supervision of any dental work carried on by private dentists whose work has not been examined from the point of view of their knowledge of the particular technique required for children. It is essential that that particular aspect of the
970
matter should be locked into. That is the only point to which I wish to draw attention. Other points in this Bill, many of them of the greatest possible importance, may well be dealt with by other speakers; but if we can ensure that care of the physical condition of our children will reach a very high standard, it will certainly have a great effect on the future of every child who goes to school.
4.28 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I do not wish to address the House for long, but I should like to revert to the point touched upon by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt. It would be a great misfortune if, by any alteration of agreed settlements, we were to reopen the settlement of the religious question in regard to schools. Thinking back to the days of my teens, I recall that that was one of the most thorny political controversies of the time. Luckily, as the years have gone by, and by careful handling, especially by successive Minister of Education, that controversy has now practically settled down, and in the educational sphere we can see harmony between the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church and the Free Churches. Mr. Butler and Mr. Chuter Ede, who at that time was his Parliamentary Secretary, effected in the 1944 Act what we all thought was a good compromise. That Act has been found to need some amendment. As Acts come into practice very few of them are comprehensive, and from time to time they need some amendment. During the time of the Labour Government two amending Bills to the 1944 Act were introduced, one in 1946 and one in 1948. The noble and learned Earl seemed to be saying to-day that the Labour Party want this provision to be retrospective. May I point out to him that the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, was not able to persuade them to put it into one of those two measures, which are amending Acts to the 1944 Act. Nothing like Clause 1 of this Bill appeared either in the Labour Government's amending Act of 1946, or in the Act of 1948.
It might have been proposed that the amendment should be retrospective to 1944; but that, in this case, was never the Ministers suggestion, and I, for one, very much deplore criticism of Miss Horsbrugh on this ground. At one time, Miss Horsbrugh was Parliamentary

971
Secretary to me when I was a Minister, just as Mr. Chuter Ede was to Mr. Butler—though, of course, the Ministerial posts were different ones; mine was at the Ministry of Food. I very much deplore that Miss Horsbrugh should be in any way accused of lack of good faith. I am certain that that is the last accusation which could be made with any justification about the right honourable lady. What, in fact, did this memorandum to which the noble Lord has referred, say? There are two passages I want to read.
EARL JOWITT: May I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? I am sorry that I was called out of the Chamber just now: we have been considering the little topic of the Enemy Property Bill which is coming before us again this week and it is a very difficult subject. I hope the noble Lord did not think that I accused the Minister of any lack of good faith. I did not mean to do so at all. The error of which I accused her was that, having found out that she could not make good promises she had made, instead of calling the people concerned back and telling them that she could not implement her promises she introduced a Bill concerned with wholly different criteria from that which she had herself enunciated. That is my criticism of her, and the only criticism I make.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am glad that the noble and learned Earl has made that clear. But I rather doubt whether Miss Horsbrugh ever made a promise that has not been implemented. However, that is a different matter. Now how do these passages from the memorandum to which I have referred read? The first is as follows:
"The two suggestions made by Bishop Beck would widen the scope of the suggested Amendment in a way that would make the justification more difficult to explain to other interested parties. She would prefer not to tamper with the wording of the memorandum which had now been sent out to all the interests which she had to consult."
She did, in fact, have consultations with the National Union of Teachers, the local education authorities, and the Church of England, as well, of course, as the Roman Catholic Church. The passage which I began quoting continues:
972
"The new definition would not be retrospective in the sense that grant on completed projects could be re-assessed."
What is a completed project?
LORD PAKENHAM: Will the noble Lord continue the quotation?
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am going to do so, but perhaps I may be allowed to finish my remark. I was asking, what is a completed project? There can be no more completed project than a school which has been finished, a school in which pupils are studying and which has been handed over to the local education authority for maintenance, as are all these schools. There was never any suggestion of including a school which had already been taken over by a local education authority. As to the accounts, surely these are not the accounts with the builder; it is the settlement of the question as to who has to pay what proportion of the cost: whether it is a matter of the Church paying part of it and the Government paying part and the local education authority paying part. I am informed that it was never the intention to make this retrospective in the sense that it would apply to schools which were already open and in which pupils were already being taught. That is the definition, as I understand it, which is now in Clause 1 of this Bill—namely, that it will not apply back to schools when all the pre-paraphernalia has been settled and pupils are already assembled and working in them. It is true that not a great number are involved, as I understand.
EARL JOWITT: Will the noble Lord please read on? He told the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, that he would give us the rest of the passage, and we are now coming to the critical words.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I will certainly read the critical words. Here they are:
"The new definition would not be retrospective in the sense that grant on completed projects could he reassessed: grant claims on schemes in progress,"—
that is all right; that is covered by the Bill—
"or for which accounts had not been closed would be eligible for review in the light of the new definition."
The noble Lord said it is the account with the builder. If it is found that an architect has still to settle something with the builder, the noble Lord said, that

973
means that the account has not been closed. In my opinion, that was never the intention at all. An account which was from the Roman Catholic Church authorities building the school and their builder, was not the one. It was a question of the proportion different people were going to pay before the final business about preliminaries to the school were settled and it was handed over to the local education authority for maintenance.
EARL JOWITT: If it is that account you mean, that must come much later. That is a much more onerous burden on the Minister than the account I suggested.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I do not mean the actual payment of the account.
EARL JOWITT: It is the settlement which must be much later.
LORD LLEWELLIN: The settlement, so far as I understand it, is arrived at on a much earlier matter—I mean the settlement as to who shall pay what proportion at the time, and before the school project is approved by the Ministry. But let us get down to what this actually amounts to. There are, I understand, seventy-six schools in the Catholic school building programme. Of these, forty-nine would have got grants, anyway, under the 1944 Act. Sixteen will clearly always have come under this amending Bill, but there are some which would never have qualified, as I understand it, and at one time there were about five schools left over. That was mentioned by Mr. Chuter Ede in another place. I understand the Minister now thinks she can include three or four of these. But the important thing, of course, in this matter is not to go back on the memorandum sent out generally to everyone, promising that it would not be retrospective. A passage I have quoted referred to a letter from Bishop Beck which was also quoted in the House of Commons. There is also this passage written by the chairman of the Catholic Education Council, which I should like to quote:
"We have now had an opportunity of giving careful consideration to the text of the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1952. In the first place I would like to tell you how much we welcome the main provisions of this Bill and how grateful we are to you for having gone so far to meet us."
974
It then refers to Clause 1, and continues:
"We appreciate that, when you received the delegation…on 12th February, 1952, you said that you found it impossible to make this clause retrospective."
Surely that can only mean retrospective for schools that were already open. That must be the meaning of the word "retrospective." The chairman then goes on to say:
"On examination, however, it has been found that there are a few cases where considerable hardship will be suffered if this clause does not have retrospetive effect."
There was no complaint that there had been any breach of undertaking, but when they had seen the text of the measure—and I think the noble and learned Earl was a little unfair to suggest that the first communication to them was on the Floor of another place, because this correspondence had been passing—theythen asked that this clause should be retrospective.
That is not just a matter between the Minister and one Church. It is a matter she has to take up with all whom she had consulted before, some of whom have sent letters already, saying that they do not agree that this should be made retrospective. That is the position. There are many of us who admire the Roman Catholic Church for what it does in the way of education and I am certainly one, of those. But I do not want us here to do anything which once more will arouse in other people's minds this extremely delicate topic and lead to that kind of controversy between perhaps the teachers or perhaps the local education authorities and the Catholic Church, which we had all hoped we had seen settled once and for all for the good of education and for the good of the people of this country.
4.42 p.m.
LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, as the second Catholic to speak in this debate, I should like to join with the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, in thanking the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, for the way in which he explained this matter and for all that has been done by the Minister for those of the Catholic community. The noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, explained the situation very clearly from our point of view, and therefore I will not detain your Lordships by going over the ground again, except to say how glad I was to hear the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr,

975
say, in his final words, that the voluntary schools shall play a part of importance in our national system of education. It is good to hear that from the representative of Her Majesty's Government.
The speech of the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, was admirable in its tone and in its presentation of the situation as we of the Catholic community see it. I agree with it wholeheartedly, and I beg the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, to give careful thought to the suggestion so clearly put by the noble and learned Earl that at an early date some suitable conference may be convened to discuss these matters. I beg him to recommend this to the right honourable lady who presides over the Ministry of Education. I hope that something along these lines will be done, because it is obvious that the issue at stake will not be solved in the time of the debate now taking place in your Lordships' House. The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, referred to this matter as a bone of contention, and I think that is true. The noble Earl also referred to differences between the two Parties. I am sure he meant between the Catholic hierarchy and the Ministry of Education, and not in any sense any difference of opinion between the two main Parties of this country. I beg the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, to give careful thought to Lord Jowitt's suggestion, to which I trust he will give effect without delay.
4.46 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, this Bill is very miscellaneous, as its title suggests. It is difficult for us not in close touch with the day-to-day work of the local education authorities to deal with it adequately, but I should like to say a few words on one or two points. I read the Report of the proceedings in another place and was impressed by the tremendous experience and sincerity of all the speeches made there, particularly on the subject of Clause 1. We have already had a good deal of discussion about this clause and I do not want to repeat arguments on whether or not the clause should be retrospective in its application. It seems to me that retrospective legislation is, prima facie, a bad thing—there, I think, we shall all agree. It is for those who want to make this
976
retrospective legislation to make their case. It is natural for those who want this change in the grants made to schools for displaced pupils to seek to make it retrospective, because clearly they would get more benefit from it. But I think their case is weak unless they can show that some obvious mistake was made in the past.
There was talk in another place about the introduction by your Lordships of an Amendment to the original Act of 1944 which prevented these grants from being made, as now suggested; but it seems to me that there has been ample time in which any mistake made at that time could have been corrected. There were many years during which the late Government were in power during which the original Act could have been amended. Retrospective legislation is bad because we have all had the benefit of the law as it stands to-day. In the past, certain bodies have felt that they could not afford to build these schools, and others have been deterred by lack of certain grants from the Ministry. If we now make a change that is retrospective, it seems to me that we should almost certainly create as many anomalies as we solved.
Clause 1, as it stands, will do much to help denominational schools, particularly Roman Catholic schools. I understand that after a long discussion with the Minister—and we ought to be grateful to the right honourable lady for the trouble she has taken over this—a compromise was arrived at, and I feel that it would be wrong to tamper with such a compromise because of pressure from one particular side. If we embark on that type of change, of running away from a compromise that has been made, it seems to me that we shall undermine the whole basis of the 1944 Act. It is always difficult to know where to draw the line in these cases, but on the merits here it seems to me that the Minister has gone a long way in this Bill towards meeting the arguments of the Roman Catholic community and other denominations. As I understand it, grants are payable for uncompleted schools and schools in the course of construction for which all contracts have been signed. It would perhaps be more logical if the line were drawn at the point at which the contract for the building was signed, because that is the

977
point at which the decision is taken as to whether the school can or cannot be built. But the Bill goes further than that, and the determining factor, as I understand it, is whether a school is in operation. As I say, I feel that we should not go back on this compromise, although I am sure we are all sorry if there has been a misunderstanding due to the actual words used in a statement by the Minister, as the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, explained.
I should now like to say a few words with regard to Clause 6. Under Clause 6 (2) (b) the local education authorities have an obligation put upon them to pay the whole of the fees of pupils who are sent to a boarding school because there is no suitable school in their own district. Not only are the local education authorities to pay for the tuition fees, hut they have also to pay the whole of the fees for board and lodging. That paragraph says that the local education authority
"shall, where board and lodging are provided for the pupil at the school…pay the whole of the fees payable in respect of the board and lodging."
I realise that it is the duty of the local education authorities to provide suitable education for every child, and that if they cannot do it in their own locality they have to provide it somewhere else. However, it seems to me to be going rather far to make it essential for the local education authority to pay all the fees for board and lodging of a pupil where the family will be saved considerable expense by having the child away from home. There are obviously cases where that is necessary, but it seems to me only fair that, in most cases, the parents should be required to pay something towards the cost of food, at least, because that is saved at home. I feel that in these days—and this is often said—we are rather apt to forget the responsibility of parents for their children. To look at it on, perhaps, a rather low plane, except for the first child, parents are paid children's allowance to help towards their maintenance. It seems to me a little illogical to pay that allowance to a parent, and then to say that for a large part of the year much of the expense of maintaining the child will be taken from the parent.
But that is not the most important point. I feel that there is a great danger
978
to-day that we are whittling away parental responsibility too far, and we ought to beware before we take any further steps in that direction. I feel, also, that we should beware of adding unnecessarily to the burden of the cost of education. But it is on this first point, what you might call the moral point, more than on the financial aspect, that I desire to place the emphasis. It seems to me that we should all pay a little, according to our means, towards the education, the clothing, or whatever it is, of our children. That, I know, is an ideal which is almost impossible to attain, but, as I have said, in this case the home is being saved expense, and surely the parents should be asked to contribute, according to their means, particularly to the cost of feeding the children living at a boarding school. I hope that noble Lords on the opposite side will not accuse me of proposing a means test. It is, to some extent, I know, a mean test if you have to ask parents what their means are; but that is already done in other parts of the educational system—in grants to universities, the scholarships for supplementation and other awards. That seems to me to be reasonable; otherwise, with the fixed amount of money available, there will not be sufficient for those who really need it.
Further on the cost of education, it seems to me that we ought to look carefully at any increase in expenditure of this sort. This increase may he small, but I feel that it is of the utmost importance that any expenditure on education should be put into the right channels. We are all aware of the grave lack of teachers, and particularly those qualified to teach scientific subjects, and of the huge classes so often being carried on in magnificent buildings. I feel that we ought to try to cut out expenditure on frills at every point, and this may be a small point on which it is worth saving a little money. I do not suggest that the money saved should be used for purposes other than education, but that it should remain in that sphere and be used to improve the recruiting and pay of teachers, so that we may reduce the numbers in these hopelessly big classes. I hope it will not be thought that I am proposing cuts in education. I am only suggesting that we should economise where we can do so without I doing harm, and divert the money to

979
where it will do the most good. Just as in the Fighting Services and in the Church, so in education: it is not the buildings and the frills that matter, but the men and women who are doing the work—they are far more important than the material equipment. If I may digress slightly from the subject of the Bill, we see these magnificent schools being built all around the country, with playing fields, swimming baths and so on—all excellent things in themselves—but we find in these schools classes of perhaps forty, or more, in which children of tender age cannot be properly taught and looked after. I would ask the Government to consider those points in the widest sense. The question is: Are we not neglecting the human and the moral factors involved, both as regards teachers and the encouragement of parental responsibility?
My last point is that in another place there were some rather ill-informed criticisms of the public schools, as it seemed to me. It was said that the public schools had failed to carry out the obligations put upon them in the Fleming Report; that they had failed to offer places to pupils from State-aided schools. As I understand the position, that is quite untrue. I was hoping that we should have an opportunity of discussing that, together with other important points about public schools, on the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, which was down on the Order Paper, but I understand that that Motion is to be put back until the autumn. However, I hope that we may then have a full discussion of the matter. Be that as it may, I understand that the public schools in general are willing to take often up to 25 per cent. of their boys from State-aided schools; that these places have not been filled, and that a minute percentage has been taken up; and that the boys who have been taken have proved most successful and have got on well with the other boys, and that there has been no difficulty. I understand that the scheme, so far as it has gone, has been a great success, and certainly there has been no reluctance on the part of the public schools to take the boys. It may well be that we shall have to reconsider the scheme under which these scholarships and grants are made. I think that many local education authorities feel that they
980
cannot afford the rather large fees that are required to take up these places. I hope that we shall discuss that in the debate which will take place in the autumn. I wanted to make this point to-day, because I feel it is most unfortunate that it should get abroad that in this connection the public schools are not fulfilling their obligation.
5.0 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, the noble Viscount who has just touched upon a number of interesting points will forgive me if I return to the one particular aspect of the Bill which has come under the main discussion this afternoon. Like those who have given the lead among Catholic speakers, I would echo a sense of gratitude for what is being done, not only, it seems to me, for Catholics, but for all who value denominational education. That does not mean for a moment that we consider we are receiving full justice. I myself believe that those who value a particular kind of denominational education should suffer no penalty at all as a result of that belief except, if you like, in very extreme cases, where a handful of such people might live in some inaccessible spot. Therefore I cannot for a moment agree that full justice is being done, or is likely to be done in the near future.
Like other Catholic speakers, I welcome the good will shown by the Government—it was, indeed, being shown by the late Government—towards this question, and towards the claims of the Catholics in particular. I welcome just as heartily the improved atmosphere in which these matters are being discussed to-day. My other opening reflection is this. It seems to me most important that these informal discussions which have been suggested by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, and supported by the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, should be held. I do not think anybody can read through those interminable debates which they had in another place—conducted as they were with much eloquence and good humour—or even our discussion here to-day, without feeling that there is still a certain amount which is still unexplained and which needs clearing up. For that reason alone, I beg the noble Earl, no doubt after discussions with the Minister, to see whether these informal conversations can be arranged.

981
The noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, will forgive me if I describe as rather challenging his suggestion that a certain compromise was reached and that now there is some danger or possibility of its being overthrown as a result of Catholic pressure. That seems to one speaker at least—I refer to myself—a very strange way of describing what has occurred, to the best of my understanding. May I take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Jowitt? May I say that if ever I get into trouble in this House—and I have been in trouble before now—I hope that the noble Lord, irrespective of Party, will leap to my assistance, though I shall not have the same claims as his old Parliamentary Secretary. If anybody could make something out of a thankless case it would be the noble Lord with his calm benevolence and reasonable manner.
Let us go back to what seems to me to be the essential of this rather unhappy dispute, unhappy though not tragic, because we hope that we shall eventually clear it up. There was this discussion between the Minister and the Catholic hierarchy, and the Minister made what I venture to describe, and what certainly has been widely understood to be, a promise. That word itself may be questioned, but until it is disputed—and it was not disputed by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin—we can say that the Minister made a certain promise to the Catholic hierarchy and that presumably she was in a position to make a promise. She is a Minister of experience and good sense and, I need hardly say, good faith; and I have, of course, no doubt that when she made the promise she meant to keep it. Let us see what this promise was. It has been read once by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, but I felt that not all members of your Lordships' House grasped what it amounted to. The Minister promised this:
"The new definition would not be retrospective in the sense that grant on completed projects could be reassessed: grant claims an schemes in progress"—
we need not argue about them, because they are accepted—
"or for which accounts had not been closed would he eligible for review, in the light of the new definition."
Now if there was any kind of compromise, clearly this was contained in it,
982
so, with respect, the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote must not talk of a compromise being reached and then suggest that our attempt to include this is adding something to the compromise. This was certainly included in any compromise that was made. There is a promise and those are the terms.
Now this is the question on which I would venture to ask the House to focus its attention, and I shall not expect too definite a reply from the noble Earl. I only hope that he will be good enough to keep the door open. Can anybody in the House say—and certainly I do not think the noble Earl will say—that this promise is going to be carried out under the Bill as it now stands? Let us see whether it can be seriously argued that it is going to be carried out. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, laid great stress on the fact that the new definition would not be retrospective. They say, "The Minister said all along that it would not be, and here are the Catholics saying that it must be retrospective. Clearly it is the Catholics who are going back on something agreed." But when one reads all these contributions in Hansard, that will seem to be a thin presentation of the case. The Minister said that it would not be retrospective in a special sense, but it was widely appreciated that the question was: What is meant by "retrospective"? In order to clear up the point further, she made this promise: that grants to schools for which the accounts had not been closed would be eligible for review. She did not promise they would receive a grant. She said they would be eligible for review if the accounts had not been closed. Now here I am looking for enlightenment quite seriously. Again, I do not want too much this afternoon, because it might be imparted perhaps too hastily, but at some point we are bound to ask what meaning is to be attached to the phrase
"for which accounts had not been closed."
LORD LLEWELLIN: If I may interrupt the noble Lord, I think that is where we are not quite ad idem. What is referred to is a grant claim for which accounts have not been closed. It is an account on the grant claim, and I am told—although I am not expert in these matters—that grant claims are put in early

983
in the proceedings, and that accounts are put in which justify the grant claims. When the grant claim has been settled, it cannot be retrospective.
LORD PAKENHAM: I am grateful to the noble Lord. We have had a great many different interpretations of this clause and this, if I have understood him aright, is another.
LORD LLEWELLIN: It is how the words read.
LORD PAKENHAM: The noble Lord is at any rate amplifying the sentence in the clause which he will agree I have read out:
"Grant claims on schemes in progress or for which accounts had not been closed would be eligible.…"
The noble Lord says that the word "accounts" refers to the grant claims and not to the schemes.
LORD LLEWELLIN: Yes. That is how it reads.
LORD PAKENHAM: As a matter of fact, it could be read either way. It is completely ambiguous in that respect. It was obviously not a very happy remark to make in the first place, as that complete ambiguity exists on the face of the words. But whatever it means, let us ask whether this phrase is now to be honoured—whether the phrase as now explained to us by the noble Lord is to be honoured and the promise put into execution. That is the point which must be put. I am informed that there is nothing in any reading of the disputed phrase under which the Minister, so to speak, would benefit. I do not want to suggest that she is scoring off the schools in any sort of way, and therefore I do not quite like putting the matter in the way I have. But I am told that in any obvious use of this phrase the Catholic schools would tend to benefit more than, or at least as much as, on our reading of it. Perhaps the Minister will kindly tell us to-day in what sense this is going to be read, and whether the phrase as now before us will be honoured in any sense: and, if so, in what sense. Until I came to the House this afternoon, I was under the impression that it was going to be thrown over. I may be wrong: the intention may be to carry it out in some sense which is lost on me; but I
984
understood that it was to be thrown over; I understood that the Minister had said, in effect, that this phrase could not be carried out without prejudice to the other parts of the Bill—in other words, that she had felt bound for some reason to scrap this promise. We may be wrong, but we should like to know in what sense, if any, this promise is going to be carried out.
I do not want to labour the point any further, because the Minister will see that, after all that prolonged discussion in another place, the minds of many of those most keenly and genuinely interested in this matter are still very much in the dark. If I press the Minister to-day on this point, it is not that I desire to force an answer. I should prefer that the spokesman of the Ministry of Education, that is to say the noble Earl, indicated this afternoon that he would be prepared for discussion and would rather not deal with the matter in greater detail to-day. But, whether to-day or later, we shall have to ask in terms whether the promise is going to be carried out and, if so, in what sense.
5.13 p.m.
EARL WAVELL: My Lords, during the passage of this Bill through another place discussion developed on the principle of Clause 6—the spending of public finance on the provision of places at independent schools. The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has postponed his Motion on this subject to the autumn to suit other interests but, unfortunately, I shall then be serving a long way overseas. I have the noble Lord's permission to trespass in advance upon his Motion. As this, I think, is the first debate on educational matters in your Lordships' House since February of last year, I hope that I shall be forgiven for opening up on a theme not previously dealt with in this debate.
I will plunge straight in by setting out the arguments of those who oppose Clause 6. The purchasing of a privileged form of education is, they say, as indefensible as was the purchasing of seats in the House of Commons or of Commissions in the Army, in the past, and so public money should not be spent to buttress this system. The money should rather go, they say, to the improvement of State schools, to reducing the size of classes, to the improvement of the salaries of teachers and of the scale of

985
equipment, playing fields, and so on. Thus, they say, the State schools could so compare with the independent schools that no parent would spend money on educating his children when the same product is going free. Others go further and say that they would abolish the public schools altogether. "Let the nation take them over" they say, "and run them as technical schools or boarding schools, at which every child in the land can have an opportunity to spend one year of his or her school life as a boarder."
I should like to follow these drastic arguments to their logical conclusion. First of all, what are the public schools? One answer might be, the 200 schools represented on the Headmasters' Conference. But it may surprise your Lordships to know that no fewer than 78 of these are predominantly day schools. I cannot see on what grounds you could, by Act of Parliament, abolish one group of independent schools and not all independent schools. There are some 1,300 independent schools recognised by the Ministry as efficient and a further 4,000 that have not sought recognition. Altogether, 400,000 children—one in every fifteen of the children of compulsory school age—are being taught in independent schools, at a cost, on the average, of £40 a year per child. If you took those children away from those schools it would mean an annual bill of £16 million, to start with. In addition to those of compulsory school age, another 51,000 children between the ages of fifteen and eighteen, are at independent schools. That represents one in every five persons at schools between those ages. So again, those persons must either in part displace those already at grammar schools, or, since the country could not afford to lose that educated manpower, it would have to find and pay for another 51,000 new places. All this does not take into account capital assets. Half the pupils at independent schools are boarders. Many of the boarding schools are situated far from centres of population; so that either these school places must be filled by boarders, which would cost the State the same practically as it costs the parents now, or new places in day schools must be built. So in one way or another it would cost the State at least £25 million annually to abolish independent schools—apart from the other arguments against that plan.
986
The noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, has explained that the public schools have offered a large number of places but that many of these places have not been taken up by the local authorities: they have not felt themselves justified in finding the money. Well, my Lords, these matters are inevitably discussed on a parochial and, indeed, almost on a personal basis: "Is Master Brown worth spending five times as much on as Master Smith?" But in the aggregate this is a national issue. Is the situation just to drift? Are we just to wait until there is a spare £25 million available to take over the independent schools, or until the State schools match the independent schools in sizes of classes and the rest? That will take a long time. Meanwhile, 150 separate local authorities settle the principle of these scholarships in as many separate ways. All the community may suffer if there is a rift between our leaders—between the man from the State school and the man from the independent school. This rift has found expression once again in recent months and cannot be ignored.
Although seventy out of 200 of our leading independent schools are day schools, it is the boarding school, and all the community life that flows from it, that is associated in the minds of most people in distinguishing the public school from the grammar school. The familiar claim is that it is boarding school life that develops leadership. I am not sure that this idea is so tenaciously held to-day. I have described to your Lordships before how I selected a man in my company of highly educated men, as the most natural robust leader among them. I only discovered afterwards that he was an only child; he had been to a mixed day school, and he had not spell: one night of his life away from home, not even out camping, until the day he joined the Army. Yet he was a natural robust leader. Some of your Lordships may have seen a diverting play in London called Escapade. A man and wife, who have recently sent their three sons to boarding school, are seen in the first act quarrelling with one another. Later on, one of these sons, rather a precocious boy, says that boarding schools of course do the boys a lot of good but that they do not do the parents any good: that boys can get on

987
without the parents, but that the parents cannot get on without their children. There is a solemn truth behind this, and one can understand the view of those parents who do not want a boarding school life for their sons. So the principle is not whether one type of school is better than another, for there are good and bad schools of all kinds. The point is that they are different, and different schools will suit different boys. One boy will be happier at a day school, flourishing in the company of his brothers and sisters; another boy may need the comparative peace of a school study, instead of a crowded kitchen, in which to do his work. The boy of outstanding ability in a scattered country district may need the competition and range of teachers not available at the day school in his area.
What, then, can be done? I suggest that the problem is a national one and must be transferred from the local authorities to the centre. I suggest that the Minister of Education should award 500 State scholarships each year to boys attending State schools to go to independent boarding schools. At an average fee of £300 a boy, this would cost £150,000 in the first year, rising to £750,000 in the fifth year, taking five years as the school life of each boy. These scholarships, building up to 2,500 by the end of the fifth year, would be sub-allotted on a regional basis, roughly according to population. Those schools willing to enter the scheme would offer places. I would rather see fifty selected schools offer fifty places over the five years than a thinner spread over more schools. Such groups of fifty boys might exercise a considerable influence in their schools.
By this proposal, boys from the great industrial centres of the North and Midlands would get many of the scholarships, whereas at the moment the majority of public schools are situated in the South of England and make arrangements for scholarships only with local authorities in the Southern counties. This is particularly important in relation to the Fighting Services. We are getting very disturbed that there are so few officers who come from North of the Trent. The allotment of scholarships on a national rather than a local authority basis may gradually alter this false balance in the officering of our Fighting Services. I do not believe
988
that there are not just as good potential officers in the North of England but, for some reason, they have not the same family traditions towards soldiering as the schools in the South. If they earn scholarships down in the southern schools, that may gradually change.
I should like to say a word about the selection of boys to take up these scholarships. They should not necessarily be boys with a natural force of character. These boys are needed as leaders in the grammar schools and, robust already, will not benefit from the rough and tumble of a boarding school life as much as the type of boy who needs a certain clash and conflict to bring out his potentialities for leadership. Nor do we want to select boys exclusively on their scholarship. A caste of intellect is worse than a caste of wealth. It is far worse to be proud of one's brains than to be proud of one's veins. The value of a community is in its mixture of the stupid and the clever, the athletic and the clumsy; and, as your Lordships know, the idle rebel is often the most valuable of all. The final selection must, I think, lie with the headmasters. My proposal would cost £750,000. I contrast this with the £9 million already being paid by the taxpayer in awards to universities. Some argue that the State should not spend money upon these scholarships. The boys are changed, they say, and not the schools. There is some force in this criticism. Experience has shown that boys from working homes fit in at the public schools very well: but do they find it so easy to fit in with their friends at home when they return on holidays?
It would be made far easier for all these boys to do that if at the same time there were a change of spirit in the public schools. This change, I suggest, must come about by all types of schools in each district working more closely together within their own community. An illustration of what I mean is with games. The public schools, and the grammar schools too, need to sweep half their cherished house cups off their mantelpieces, scrap half their school fixtures with other public schools and other grammar schools a long way away, and arrange to play more games with the other schools in their locality, and with youth clubs, factory sides and Service sides in the area. I see no reason

989
why there should not be an exchange of staff among the different schools in one locality, and even some senior pupils, for a term at a time, with mutual benefit to one another.
So also with various school societies. I imagine that some of the technical school and secondary modern schools, with their farming clubs and aeromodelling clubs, could teach the academic boy something. For many years, colleges at the universities have rented their rooms in the holidays to various study groups. I cannot see why the public schools should not extend the hospitality of their buildings and playing fields in the same way during the holidays. In all these ways, these schools must dispel the notion that they are remote and closed communities. Just as much is being done, much remains to be done. Some will say, "Let the schools give evidence of the need and their desire to rake these changes before the State spends money on scholarships." That may be logic, but it is not human nature. I believe that the changes will go together. The presence of State scholars in goodly numbers, fifty altogether, in a school, will infuse a positive purpose and an impetus to a change that, once it starts, will be welcomed as exciting.
If this kind of change gets under way, other problems may solve themselves—like the need for comprehensive schools. Every year, the Home Secretary awards 7,000 State scholarships to boys at approved schools, and they cost just as much a head as the 2,500 scholarships for which I am appealing. Those boys probably possessed a grudge against the well-to-do, and were starved of companionship in their leisure hours. I think much of this crime would be prevented by a livelier social understanding of their problems by the more intelligent boys which will be brought about if those changes get under way. Some will say that State scholarships mean spending public money without public representation. I think again of the example of the universities. The University Grants Committee has worked very well, and has in no way threatened the independence of the universities. Surely the Minister of Education could likewise appoint an Advisory Board, widely based and acceptable to all Parties, to watch over the selection and allotment and
990
future progress of these scholars. Perhaps one member of that Advisory Board could be invited to join the governing body of each of the schools concerned in the scheme.
We as a nation cannot escape from our history and our sense of history. It has always been our virtue to change our institutions with the times. I said that I hoped the scheme of scholarships would start first of all only about fifty schools. I hope that many of the oldest of our schools will be chosen as the pioneers in such a scheme. Then boys from the busy machinery and smoke of our great industrial cities, which produce so much of our wealth, will bring their vigour and blunt, practical I common sense to blend with the old sleepy traditions of our cathedral cities and ancient seats of learning, to the mutual enrichment of one another. The time is ripe. Clause 6 of this Bill is no: enough, and the Government must give a lead to such an enterprise.
5.31 p.m.
EARL DE LA WARR.: My Lords, first may I thank all those who have joined in this debate for the manner in which they have dealt with the complex and difficult subject of this Bill? It is a real contribution to the spirit that must prevail if we are to solve all our difficulties. Before dealing with that subject, may I deal with one other point that has been brought up by Lord Haden-Guest and Lord Amulree? The policy of the Bill is that local authorities shall provide dental treatment by having a full dental service; for specialist services the children naturally go to the hospitals; and if parents wish their children to go to a private dentist, then, of course, they are prepared to give advice. In the meantime, while we are building up the service various devices must be resorted to. I think noble Lords who are interested in this subject will be pleased to know that during the last eighteen months the school dental service has increased from 713 to over 900. That, I think, is most gratifying.
Now, on the subject contained in Clause 1, which is in all our minds, let me say straight away that I agree strongly with the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, and the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, that discussions might very well be most helpful. Not only can I say that to your

991
Lordships as an expression of my own opinion, but during the debate I have had an opportunity of putting this matter to my right honourable friend the Minister for Education, who has authorised me to say that she would be pleased to meet Members of your Lordships' House on the proposed informal basis. In such a friendly atmosphere as that in which we have discussed this matter, I hope the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, and the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, will forgive me if I say what a terrible pity it was that the Government of which they were both eminent and distinguished members did not feel able to deal with this problem in 1946 and in 1948, when they presented to Parliament legislation amending the main Act. Indeed, even in their Election Manifesto they made no promise to the Roman Catholics on this matter, until some time during the course of the Election when they issued a special Manifesto.
LORD PAKENHAM: I think I must remove any suggestion which I feel sure was not intended by the noble Earl, that the attempt to do justice to Catholic and other denominational education was a last minute thought on the part of the Labour Government. He is fully aware of the fact that those discussions had been continuing for a long time.
EARL DE LA WARR: It was obviously a most unfortunate coincidence that they finally came to that conclusion during the course of the Election. Of course, in 1946 and 1948, indeed even up to January, 1951, had they felt able to deal with this problem, there would be no single school in regard to which retrospection would have to be claimed now. I very much hope that I am not saying anything controversial, because I am anxious not to do that, but it is important that the whole country, and especially the Roman Catholic community, should realise the facts of theposition—namely, that in this Bill we are in fact doing everything that the Roman Catholics have asked for in this matter, except in regard to retrospection, which would not have been necessary if the last Government had, during their term of office, done as we are doing now.
I think we all appreciate the fact which was made clear by the noble and learned
992
Earl that he was not suggesting any bad faith on the part of the Minister. He made that very clear. But he did use the words "flat contradiction." Even those words in themselves are fairly serious words, and it is very disturbing to a Minister to be told that he or she has been guilty of the flat contradiction of undertakings given to a deputation. One can well understand it being said—although I myself think that the words show complete clarity—that there was a misunderstanding about the interpretation of the word "completion" but that is a very different thing from accusing a Minister of flat contradiction. I examined the record of these interviews and the debate in another place, and it seemed to me that the matter was perfectly clear. As the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, said, it was clear from the beginning that neither side thought that the Minister had promised a retrospection. In fact, on December 4, Bishop Beck said quite clearly:
"We appreciate that, when you received the delegation on February 12, 1952, you said that you found it impossible to make this clause retrospective."
Nothing could be more clear than that.
However, my Lords, I think it would be a pity if I went into this matter in too much detail, because it might well be that I should close some door that the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, would wish to keep open in regard to the discussions we envisaged. It might well defeat the main purpose of these discussions if I said more. I will therefore close by saying, once again, that I thank your Lordships for the spirit in which you have conducted this debate and received the Bill. Perhaps I may say that we particularly welcome the note struck in the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, and the appeal which he, in common with other noble Lords, made for the maintenance of that spirit of compromise and good will which we are all anxious to show in these difficult discussions. We shall certainly try to arrange discussions with the Minister at the earliest moment. I, for one, express the hope that they may lead to a complete understanding of the issues before us.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SCHOOL CROSSING PATROLS BILL [H.L.]
5.40 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD LLOYD): My Lords, this is a modest Bill, but I should like to commend it to your Lordships as one which I believe will serve a very useful purpose. I am sure there will be widespread agreement that any measure to reduce the number of accidents to children on our roads has a great deal to commend it, and it is the belief of the Government that the proposals embodied in this Bill ought to help in that direction. It is a shocking fact that in 1952 over 31,000 children of school age were injured, and 460 lost their fives, as the result of road accidents. Some of these accidents took place when children were crossing busy roads on their way to and from school, and it is in order to make improved provision for dealing with that particular problem that this Bill has been prepared.
The main proposals in this Bill, of course, are not novel. I emphasise that point, because these patrols have been in operation in various parts of the country for some considerable time. The Bill is rather concerned with improving and extending arrangements which are already in force in some areas. As your Lordships are probably aware, as long ago as 1936, an Inter-Departmental Committee on Road Safety among School Children recommended that the system of adult patrols to safeguard school children crossing roads near schools—a system which was then in an experimental stage in a few areas—should be extended. The Committee recommended that the patrols should carry a sign authorised by the Ministry of Transport, and that disregard of this sign should be made an offence. The use of patrols was gradually extended, following the Report of this Committee, and by 1952 some 83 education authorities outside London—that figure includes Scotland—were operating school crossing patrols in Great Britain. In view of the high casualty rate among children as a result of road accidents, to which I have already referred, Her Majesty's Government felt that it was desirable to extend these
994
arrangements, if possible, over the country as a whole; and after consultation with representatives of local authorities, an appeal was made, in October, 1952, to the authorities of counties, county boroughs and large burghs where patrols were not yet in operation to provide such patrols in advance of legislation.
As I have said, these patrols were originally provided by education authorities; but when the matter was considered by the Government last year, it was felt, and I think rightly felt, that the Home Office and the Scottish Home Department were really the appropriate Departments to take general responsibility for this scheme. I think your Lordships will appreciate that it is not possible for the police force themselves, with all the other demands made upon them, to provide all the supervision needed for the purpose of looking after children on their way to and from school, but in many areas the chief officer of police has naturally been called in for advice and assistance in organising and training the patrols and deciding at which crossings they should be placed. When the appeal which I have already mentioned was made to counties and county boroughs to provide patrols, they were told that any expenditure so incurred with the Home Secretary's approval would receive an Exchequer grant of 50 per cent., administered by the Home Office. That was, of course, pending the enactment of legislation, and in the interim the Minister of Housing and Local Government sanctioned, under the proviso to Section 228 (1) of the Local Government Act, 1933, reasonable expenditure by local authorities on the provision of these patrols, where that expenditure was included in accounts subject to district audit. Corresponding arrangements were made in Scotland.
In view of the urgency of the problem, let me state emphatically that the Government make no apology for having made these interim arrangements in anticipation of legislation. We feel—I hope with justice—that there will be a general welcome for the present Bill, the main object of which is to regularise the action which, at the request of the Government, has already been taken by a number of local authorities.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Could the noble Lord tell us how many?
LORD LLOYD: Does the noble Lord mean since the request was made in October, 1952, or how many altogether have taken action?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: How many altogether.
LORD LLOYD: I think I did mention that 83 authorities outside London have taken such action. I said that that figure included Scotland, where 10 authorities have so acted. That means there are 73 in England and Wales. If the noble Lord wants to know how many more have come in since October 1952, I will give him the figure afterwards.
As I was saying, the main object of the Bill is to regularise the action already taken, and it is also to encourage those authorities who do not at present organise school crossing patrols to do so. The Bill empowers the Common Council of the City of London, and county councils and county borough councils (except in the Metropolitan Police District), and the corresponding authorities in Scotland, to make arrangements for the patrolling of school-crossings. If noble Lords will look at the Bill, they will see that it also provides that county councils shall have regard, in making such arrangements, to any representations made to them by local authorities in the county. As your Lordships will be aware, and as laid down in the Bill, the persons to be employed as patrols are to be persons other than police constables; but it is contemplated that a good many local councils may, in fact, wish to pass to the police authority the responsibility for the provision of patrols. As I have told your Lordships, chief officers of police have already been very active in giving assistance with regard to the recruitment, training and disposition of patrols. In a county borough, the council can, if it wishes, delegate these responsibilities to the watch committee, without specific statutory authority; but in a county, or in a borough which forms part of an amalgamated police force, specific authority is necessary to enable this power to be transferred by the county council or the county borough council to the police authority; and the necessary provision is to be found in the rather complicated phraseology of subsection (4) of Clause 1 and in the Schedule of the Bill. Actually, I think, subsection (4), though it looks
996
rather complicated, is not quite so bad as it looks when one studies it with the Schedule.
I do not want to weary your Lordships with a detailed explanation of the remaining provisions of the Bill, or to anticipate any discussions which may take place in Committee, but I think I ought to mention that the opportunity has been taken—and I feel it was right to take that opportunity—to gather together all the various provisions dealing with crossing patrols, such as the power of the Minister of Transport to authorise signs, and the power of the patrols to stop traffic, and to enact the whole lot in one Bill. The Bill also deals with the uniform to he worn by patrols, and makes it a specific offence to fail to comply with the order of a school crossing patrol to stop.
There is one further point on which I think I ought to offer a brief explanation—that is, the provisions in the Bill with regard to the Metropolitan Police District. The position there differs somewhat from that in the country as a whole, because in 1950 the local authorities in the Metropolitan Police District invited the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis to take over the running and organising of school crossing patrols in the Metropolitan Police District. The representatives of all the local authorities in the Metropolitan Police Districts have indicated that they wish the present arrangements to be continued, and therefore, as your Lordships will see, the Bill provides that in the Metropolitan Police District the Commissioner of Police is to be responsible for the arrangements for the patrolling of school crossings. Under subsection (3) of Clause 1, he is required to have regard to any representations made to him about these arrangements by local authorities in the District. He is just in the same position as county councils. In London, as elsewhere, 50 per cent. of the expense will fall to be met by the Exchequer.
I do not want to delay your Lordships at any great length on this subject. Undoubtedly there will be points of detail in the Bill which will require further scrutiny at a later stage, and at the end of the debate I shall, of course, do my best to deal with any specific points which your Lordships may raise in the course of the debate. But I hope that

997
the general principles of this measure, designed as it is to protect children from the dangers of the road, will command support from all sides of your Lordships' House. With that hope I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Lloyd.)
5.52 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CH1LWORTH: My Lords, conciseness and clarity have always been a virtue of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, who has asked us this afternoon to give a Second Reading to this Bill, and this speech has been no exception. We are grateful to him for the small amount of time he has taken and for the information he has given us. I shall try to follow his excellent example. I think the noble Lord's last words were very appropriate. We on this side of the House will give every support to this Bill, because we hope that it will do something to militate against one of the greatest social scourges of the day, the appalling death on the roads of this country. Unfortunately, there is a growing number of accidents where young children are concerned. I am going to resist the temptation to go into the road accident problem too deeply to-day, because I shall be inviting your Lordships to discuss this in all its aspects in the near future.
Although we have some criticisms, we welcome this Bill. I suppose there is cause for congratulation to the Government for at last attempting to produce a Bill of their own, instead of leaving it to energetic Back-Benchers to produce one for them, though perhaps that comment has to be tempered somewhat, because this Bill only legislates, at long last, for what has been going on for a long time, as the noble Lord himself said. I am glad that the central authority have decided that this matter is of such importance that they should take it under their wing. I hope the noble Lord will not mind my saying that I think that in all matters of road safety the local authorities in this country have been sadly remiss. They certainly have been remiss with these school crossing patrols. The noble Lord said that about seventy local authorities have school crossing patrols.
LORD LLOYD: In England and Wales.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: In England and Wales: Scotland I hesitate ever to criticise, so I will leave it out of my point. I believe that I am right in saying that there are about 500 local authorities who have the power to put on school crossing patrols.
LORD LLOYD: have not the figure by me, but I think that seventy local authorities in England and Wales is about 50 per cent. I think it is as good as that. I think 500 is a high figure.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: It is a moot point which authorities have had the power to have school crossing patrols. It is one of my criticisms; that it is not clear who has the authority under this Bill. I will net generalise; I will come down to the Bill and start off with the point I have just made. Clause 1 talks of arrangements being made by "the appropriate authority." I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he will give me the definition of "appropriate authority" in this regard. Am I to understand, for example, that a rural district council has not the authority under this Bill to have a school crossing patrol unless it has the authority of the county council? To me that does not seem right. County councils and county borough councils are about the only authorities mentioned in the Schedule. Are the county councils the arbiters of the actions of all the lesser authorities, who, after all, are rate-collecting authorities, with the power of spending public money? Perhaps the noble Lord will answer that point when he comes to speak again.
Subsection (1) of Clause 1 says:
"Arrangements may be made by the appropriate authority for the patrolling of places where children cross roads.…"
The words are "may" be made. What happens if the authorities are as remiss in future as they have been in the past? Can the overriding authority force this upon them, or is "may" the operative word in this clause? Is there no sanction if a local authority refuses to operate this Bill? Subsection (1) goes on to say that the places where children cross roads may be patrolled
"by persons appointed by or on behalf of the appropriate authority, other than police constables."

999
I hope there is going to be some standard. I do not particularly want a highly trained individual, but I certainly think that he should have some minimum physical standard and some mental standard. Is any guidance to be given to local authorities as to whom they appoint? I would stress my agreement with the principle of this Bill, because I think we shall soon have to turn our attention to having part-time traffic wardens to assist the police in traffic control at peak hours at very intricate crossings, like that at Parliament Square, Whitehall and Bridge Street. I am certain that we shall never get enough police to control traffic on our roads while the traffic continues to grow and the roads are not improved. But I certainly think we shall have to have some standard for those appointed as street crossing patrols.
Clause 1 (4) says that the local authority may make an arrangement with the police to carry on the duties of these school crossing patrols. The question I am about to ask may seem rather facetious, but it is not, as I will explain in a moment. If the police authority does take it over, does the policeman remain a policeman, or does he become a school patrol? I ask that, because in the next clause we have the contentious point that a school patrol can stop traffic only by exhibiting a prescribed sign.
LORD LLOYD: It might be helpful if I were to deal with that point now, if the noble Lord is going on to other matters.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I have so many points, to which I am sure the noble Lord has all the answers, that perhaps it would be more helpful if he dealt with them all together. I was going to ask whether a policeman has to carry this prescribed sign. This is one point upon which I criticise this measure strongly. The Bill goes on to stipulate that these patrols shall wear uniform—and I agree with that provision. I hope the noble Lord will be able to tell us that it will be a uniform uniform, and that we shall not have different embellishments on the uniforms for different county councils or local authorities, such as we have in the Army with different regiments. We must get a uniform patrol so that it is easily recognised, like the
1000
A.A. scouts, who carry out invaluable work in regard to traffic control.
I am open to conviction, but at the moment I am opposed to the requirement that these patrols must carry this sign. It is an unwieldy object. Anybody who is conducting the operation of regulating traffic needs to have both hands free. In a high wind it is hardly manageable at all. As your Lordships will be aware, it has on the middle of it the word "Stop." The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, knows that when an experienced traffic policeman wishes to stop traffic to allow somebody to cross the road he is not foolish enough to rush out into the middle of the traffic and try to stop the first vehicle. He points to about the sixth vehicle down, and holds up his hand, and the driver of that vehicle knows that he is the one who has to stop. I would ask the noble Lord whether he will give your Lordships a demonstration of how a traffic patrol carrying a sign—some of these signs are about four feet by three feet in size—stops the sixth vehicle down the line. Does he wave the sign over his head; or does he, as they do to-day, walk out into the middle of the road, put up the sign, and try to stop the vehicle already only two feet from him? These are pertinent points. I believe that the policeman needs to have both hands free when controlling traffic, and that this is even more important in the case of the ordinary man or woman—and I take it that we shall have women as well as men patrols; I see no reason why we should not, because we have most efficient policewomen. If they are going to shepherd young children of tender age, who come out of school in their dozens or fifties, then they need both hands free after they have stopped the traffic, to attend to the children crossing the road, in case little Willie takes it into his head to dart somewhere where little Willie should not.
Further, I believe that they should have only elementary training, because these patrols will not be operated at intricate traffic junctions. Right outside the school there is generally a crossing, and the patrols do not have to perform the laborious task that we see performed every day just outside your Lordships' House. I believe that a distinctive uniform and slight, elementary training is far better than having this cumbersome board, to which I was always opposed when I was in the Ministry of

1001
Transport, but on which, unfortunately, I was overridden—as I was on a number of other things, incidentally. I can still see the senselessness of it, as I saw it only to-day in driving to your Lordships' House. In one place there was a man with a board about four foot square, and about a mile further on there was a woman with a board about the size of a blotting pad. That was in the Borough of Wandsworth. Perhaps the woman could not manage a big board. Are we going to have boards varying in size according to the different physical characteristics of the patrol? I would ask the noble Lord to give this question serious consideration, because on the Committee stage we may go into it further.
I should also like to know what is meant by "exhibiting a prescribed sign." What is "exhibiting"? If the noble Lord looks at Clause 2 (2) (b), he will see these words:
"The vehicle shall not be put in motion again so as to reach the place in question so long as the sign continues to be exhibited"
Exactly what does that mean? Suppose the patrol drops it: is it then being exhibited? Or if the wind blows the sign out of his hands and it falls on the road, has the traffic then the right to proceed over the crossing, irrespective of whether there are children there or not? What is the defence of the motorist? Can he say: "The sign was not exhibited"? If the patrol puts it across his shoulder and walks away with it, is it exhibited? I think that the question as to what is the definition of "exhibiting a sign" is one into which the noble Lord might well look between now and the next stage of the Bill
That is practically all the criticism I have of this Bill. I will not go into the financial side of it, because I am not particularly interested in finance when it comes to road safety. Road safety is a purchasable commodity. All we want to do is to try and convince a Government to spend the money. Any Government willing to spend enough money can overcome the road accident problem of this country to the extent of nearly 80 per cent. When we do get a Government—and I hope this is the sign of awakening—that will put human life arid the saving of human life before money, then we shall solve the road safety problem. I commend this Bill to your Lordships'
1002
House, because I believe that this is the first sign of that being done. I hope that there will be no quibble between the local authorities and the Treasury, or between the local authorities and the Home Office or the noble Lord's right honourable friend. The noble Lord is now speaking for the Home Office—the first time in my recollection that the Home Office have had the courage to come and stand at that Despatch Box and talk about road accidents. They generally have their stooge, the representative of the Ministry of Transport, there. If this is the awakening of the Government, we support them to the full on this Bill and we commend it to your Lordships' House for a Second Reading.
6.10 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should like to follow the noble Lord who has just sat down and say, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches, that we support this measure very strongly indeed. There are one or two minor points I wish to raise. One is with regard to the kind of person to be employed. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that what is wanted is someone with a certain amount of training. It appears to me to be a very good job for a person who has retired and is comparatively fit, because it is a job with very long holidays, not very long hours, and a great sense of power because you stop the traffic. I wonder whether it could be generally arranged that the crossings shall be made on the black and white zebra crossings which exist already. Talking as a motorist, and not as a pedestrian, one does not want too many crossings. Secondly, I trust that if this Bill becomes law it, will not mean that the schools will stop teaching children the principles of road safety, because that is more important than making safe crossings. I do not intend to take up your Lordships' time any further, beyond saying that I strongly support the Bill.
6.12 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I venture to make a few remarks on this Bill because I am sure your Lordships on all sides of the House will agree that though this is—to use the description of the Minister who introduced it—"a modest Bill," every Bill deserves careful consideration by your Lordships' House before it passes from us. Let me

1003
say at the outset that there is absolutely no conflict in my mind, or, I am sure, in the minds of any other noble Lords, about the desirability of cutting down this terrible toll on the roads, both of adults and children. Let me make that quite plain before I make any criticism of this Bill.
I am not clear as to the desirability of setting up a new uniformed force, new offences in law and new penalties at an unstated cost. We as a House have certain severe restrictions in financial matters, but before we pass the Second Reading of this Bill I think we may properly ask the Minister to give us some indication of the additional cost which will have to be borne by the Exchequer for the provisions included in this Bill. It would indeed be strange if we passed a Bill without one word from the Minister as to what is the burden upon the taxpayer of the country. Equally, I am not quite clear on this point. If the present system and the present position of enforcement of stopping motorists at school crossings is, broadly speaking, satisfactory, and is capable, to use the words of the Minister, "of improvement and extension," why should the present system be swept away, as it, is being swept away, and a new system put in its place? As I understand it, the motorist to-day is liable to prosecution under Section 49 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. That says very clearly:
"…where any traffic sign being a sign for regulating the movement of traffic…has been lawfully placed on or near any road in accordance with the provisions of the last preceding section, any person driving or propelling any vehicle who…fails to conform to the indication given by the sign, shall be guilty of an offence."
That, as I understand it, is the present sanction against the motorist. I think I am entitled to ask the Minister why it is necessary to have a new offence with new penalties. Apparently it is the view of Her Majesty's Government that there is need, not merely for strengthening the existing law but for creating a new offence in law. Since that is the view of the Government, I think we must accept it. But if we do accept that view, I submit that this Bill is not right in its provisions and needs certain amendment.
The Bill creates new specific offences. It imposes, in one direction, higher
1004
penalties. But the powers given under the Bill are to be administered by a new uniformed force, and there is not one word in the Bill as to the qualifications which those who make up this force are to have nor is there one word as to the training or standard of training which those administering this force have to attain. I ask the Minister this question: What assurance have we that those who are going to exercise these powers will have the training or the administrative ability to use the power, let us say, of halting a motorist? The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, said that he thought it would be a nice job for somebody in his retiring years. I have taken the trouble, as no doubt your Lordships have, of looking at some of these worthy folk, many of them of considerable age, who are at present carrying these signs across the roads. One I met was a very old gentleman, whose eyesight was admittedly deficient. Lord Nelson, with one eye, commanded a fleet with great success, but I do not think that somebody with two weak eyes is necessarily capable of stopping motor cars in a proper and authoritative manner. Another gentleman I met—a splendid man, and a retired ex-Serviceman—had one leg, and he hobbled across the road holding the sign. I believe that the Government should give some indication of the standards of physical fitness required for these patrols. I submit to your Lordships that a physical condition such as that which I have just mentioned is not suitable for a man who is to be in charge of children crossing the road.
Again, what experience have these people of judging the speed of motor cars? To use not a very good word, but one coined by one of Her Majesty's Ministers, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport. Mr. Gurney Braithwaite: What knowledge of "roads-manship" have the members of this new uniformed force to have? Why do we have traffic police? It is because the technical problems of motoring, and seeing that motorists conform to the law, are matters which those who understand cars and who deal with motor cars and motorists are particularly qualified to look after. It will be very different in future if a motorist is to be reported by a member of this new force, and brought before the courts on the complaint that he has not stopped properly. It seems to me that it will create a difficult position

1005
in the courts if a motorist is to be told that he has not stopped properly. If his defence is that he was not given proper time to stop, it seems to me that it will be a very difficult thing if evidence is given for the prosecution by one or more of these uniformed officers. I believe that these people should have some training, however elementary, "roadsmanship" and should have some reasonable physical qualifications.
The Minister, in introducing this Bill, said there were points of detail to be dealt with on Committee stage. I agree. But I submit to your Lordships that these are points of principle and not points of detail. The qualifications and training of those who are to administer the new powers which will be given to this new force is surely a matter of Second Reading principle. I ask the Minister if, in his reply, he will give an undertaking that Her Majesty's Government will study this Bill before it comes before your Lordships again, and see whether the matters which I have dealt with—qualifications and fitness—cannot be incorporated in the Bill. Alternatively, I make this suggestion. This is not a great political measure, and there is no Party issue in it. If he is unable to do what I have suggested, would he consider adjourning the Second Reading? We do not want to lose the Bill, but it might perhaps be adjourned to another date if he is not able to give the pledge for which I have asked. I submit (it will be for the House to say whether they agree with me or not) that the principles of the Bill are inadequate, and that it would be wrong to give these unspecified powers to an untrained and unqualified force at an unspecified cost to the taxpayer.
6.23 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I have listened with great attention to what the Minister has told us about this Bill, but he made no reference to the vital point which has just been touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. The constitution of the new force which it is proposed to set up is, as Lord Balfour said, a matter of absolute principle. Here is an entirely new force; but there is no word, as Lord Balfour pointed out, with regard to the training of that force or the experience and qualifications which are going to be asked of those who compose it. This is not a
1006
matter for amateurs. The control of traffic to-day is far too complicated a thing to be entrusted to amateurs; and I submit that if we are to have a strange species of officer—an officer who is not a policeman and not a traffic warden but is altogether a new kind of man—we must pay attention to the importance of training.
I think that such an official must be expected to be reasonably bright mentally, he must have a reasonable standard of physical fitness, and he must have a certain amount of proper training. As I have said, and indeed as Lord Lucas pointed out so ably, the traffic policeman of to-day is not just an ordinary policeman sent out on duty; he is a man who has had and must have a certain amount of training. For example, when a road is slippery and conditions are bad it is not easy to pull up a great, heavy lorry. It is certainly not as easy as when the road is dry. There is; no assurance that the people who are to compose this force are going to pay much regard to considerations of that sort. We all know the extraordinary difficulties of driving large lorries and buses, let alone smaller vehicles such as motor cars and the like, in modern traffic conditions.
I think the noble Lord must really tell us much more about how these people are going to be selected and trained and what sort of equipment they are going to use. It is essential that people who are going to join this force should have standardised equipment. Motor vehicles to-day go from one end of the country to the other, and it is no use a driver expecting to find a man having the same equipment as is used in his own area if local authorities all over the country are going to use different kinds of equipment. It is essential that the driver of a vehicle, when he sees one of these men, should know exactly what he is and what his functions are. If the noble Lord wants suggestions as regard equipment, I would suggest that a white Sam Browne belt, as worn in some countries abroad, is as good a thing as anything else. In any event, it is most important that the driver should know at what sort of officer he is looking.
There are many points of a similar character in this Bill to which I should like to refer, but I do not want to enlarge upon them. There is, however, one matter that

1007
I wish to mention, and that is the question of scholar patrols. Two years ago I was in Copenhagen at a big conference. We were invited to go out one morning and see what the police and authorities of Copenhagen were doing in order to reduce child casualties near schools. I was very busy at the moment and was unwilling to go, thinking that it might be a waste of time—but I have never been more wrong. We were taken to various schools in Copenhagen. The schools there are of much the same size as and very much like the London County Council schools. Each of us had attached to him a policeman who spoke the language of his country, for we all came from different countries. I had an English-speaking policeman attached to me. He took me to an enormous school and there I saw a very wonderful thing.
They choose at each of these schools the senior girls and the senior boys in the school. They receive a certain amount of training from the police force; lectures and so forth are given them. Then they take turn and turn about—the girls one week and the boys another. They arrive at the school five minutes before lessons are due to begin and they leave school five minutes before lessons are due to end. They man all the crossings within half a mile of the school. This is going on all over Copenhagen—some of your Lordships may have seen it. There is one at the dispatch end and one at the receiving end of each crossing. They are intended not to control the traffic but to watch it, and when it is safe for the children to cross, they let them cross. They hold out their arms until it is safe; when they drop their arms it means that the children can go across.
The effect of this system in Copenhagen was that the police admitted that whereas there had been thirty-two casualties in the city among children going to and from school, there were only two casualties in the first year after this system was put in force. The police were quite disappointed with that figure and hoped that it would be less still in the next year. I am afraid, however, that it was not less—it rose by two, in fact, making four in all—but that represented a wonderful reduction in the casualty rate in that particular city. I had the opportunity of talking to the boys and the girls who were doing this duty, and I found
1008
that they took enormous interest in it; they loved it. They were given a certain amount of real responsibility and they treated this duty as children will treat things like this, half as a jolly good game and half with great seriousness, because they were so impressed with the responsibility and were keen upon it. It is of interest to know that this scholar patrol system has also been adopted in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Denmark, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland and the United States.
I should like to give one or two figures which illustrate the value of this system in the United States, because that is where the idea originated. For example, in Cincinnati, which is a big city, not a single child has been injured on a school crossing since the patrol system was instituted there twenty-six years ago. Equally, in Chicago in 1921, 205 grade school children were killed going to and from school. School patrols were instituted and the figure came down to 35. Again, in New York, since 1926, when the patrols were organised, the traffic fatalities to children under sixteen years of age have decreased by 80 per cent. through the entire city, notwithstanding an increase of over 100 per cent. in the number of motor vehicles in the city during the same period. There must be some value in a system which produces results like that, and I think it is a matter that we ought to explore here. I believe one school in this country is actually running the scholar patrol system. I think it is at Chesham, and that it is able to show wonderful results. I believe that they have had not a single casualty since they started the system, and there has been improvement all round.
If the various countries to which I have referred can produce these results, we ought to try these methods here; and if we are not to try them I want to know exactly why. I know that police experts in Copenhagen met with a lot of resistance from the school teachers before they were able to start this system there, but they were able to secure the teachers' consent to try it on an experimental basis. We ought to try something of the sort here. But, whatever we do—and this was impressed upon me in Copenhagen—the whole system depends on training. That was reinforced by the

1009
remarks of the noble Lords, Lord Lucas of Chilworth and Lord Balfour of Inchrye. I submit: to the noble Lord in charge of the Bill that, when he comes here again for a further stage of the Bill, he should tell us a good deal more than he has been able to do so far about this patrol force, the conditions that are going to govern it and how it is to be equipped and trained.
6.32 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I am sorry to inflict myself upon you a second time in one afternoon. On this occasion, however, I feel no need to be tactful, conciliatory or statesmanlike and I can be brief, because I am glad to say I have been anticipated in what I was going to say by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. The scholar patrol system was going strongly in Philadelphia when I was there twenty-nine years ago. I have obtained since then, and I think not many years ago I communicated my researches to the House, further information about the system. It is an enormous success in America and there are many people in this country, including a large number of school teachers who have been in America on exchange jobs, who can tell the Ministry of Transport and their colleagues in the National Union of Teachers what an amazing success the scholar patrol system is.
There is one most important point in connection with the scholar patrol system: the scholars are not given any authority whatever to control traffic. That is vital. Their sole job is to control children and to keep the children back until it is safe for them to cross. Morally, of course, they do control traffic, because any reasonably courteous motorist coming up and seeing the scholar patrol on the edge of the pavement slows down and makes way for it. The relations between motorists and the scholar patrols in the United States are singularly happy and satisfactory.
What are the objections to adopting that system here? It has been represented that it is dangerous for the children. Can anybody tell me that English traffic is worse than the traffic of New York? Then we are told that it is bad for the children's nerves. I have myself taught American children and I can assure your Lordships that their nervous systems are no better than the English
1010
child's nervous system. Then what other objections there can be towards the adoption of the scholar patrol system in our secondary schools, I cannot imagine. It is no trouble for the teachers to arrange, and the children enjoy doing, it. Admittedly, that system would not serve in the primary schools, the schools where the children attend only up to the age of eleven plus. There I admit at once the necessity to employ adult patrols. But I still doubt very much whether it is advisable to give those adult patrols power to control traffic, as is done under Clause 2of the Bill. I believe, with the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, that that is a most dangerous expedient and one which we should do well to think about many times before adopting. I beg that the House will adopt the advice of the noble Lord. Lord Balfour of Inchrye, and secure that the Second Reading of this Bill be postponed until the Minister has had time to reconsider the matter: and I hope that that further consideration will include a trip to New York.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I shall intervene for only one moment to say that, before this debate and still more since this debate and the facts which have been brought before your Lordships' House, the subject has seemed to me of such importance and so vital in the interests of the children themselves that I, for one, would warmly endorse the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, that it should receive far fuller consideration than clearly has been given to it already. Therefore I would join him in appealing to Her Majesty's Government to give the consideration that has been asked for, reinforced by the arguments and the facts that have been brought before your Lordships' House.
LORD SANDHURST: My Lords, I had intended to inflict myself upon your Lordships at some length this afternoon, but I am glad to say that, thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, and the noble Earls, Lord Howe and Lord Iddesleigh, I am going to let you off. All I want to say now is that I agree with every word that they have said, and particularly with the words that fell from the noble Lord. Lord Balfour. He expressed the hope that he could have the support of the House. I want him to know that at any rate, am slap behind him.
6.40 p.m.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I, too, had come to this House not expecting that a Bill like this would have any doubts raised about it. We hear of the road casualties to children, and here is one method which promises some limited amount of success in reducing the toll of casualties. The opposition that has been expressed by a number of noble Lords seems to me, with great respect, to be based largely on a misconception. In the first place, if I understand it aright, this Bill does not introduce any new system—it gives legal sanction to a practice that has been going on for three years and more. Noble Lords must have seen school crossing patrols in operation for two or three years past. We know that a number of local authorities have had them in operation, and, speaking for myself, I have heard of no complaints, no casualties, no accidents caused by errors of judgment on the part of the patrols: in fact there is nothing to get frightened about. This Bill merely endorses and gives legal power to an experiment which has been going on for a number of years—long enough to give a good idea of its success and practicability.
Noble Lords who speak, possibly, from the motorists' angle surely misjudge or under-estimate the common sense, reinforced by the instinct for self-preservation, of the average citizen of this country. It would not be a very wild statement to say that anybody who has reached middle age now, and has survived, and is sound in all his limbs, has a pretty good road sense. To suggest that elderly people, one-legged people or people who do not drive cars themselves are not fit persons to be given the power to stop traffic seems to me to be giving a completely false idea of this system and what is intended by it. I know one or two of the patrols and I think that the fears expressed by noble Lords are greatly exaggerated. Broadly speaking these patrols do exercise common sense. Above all, they exercise a sense of responsibility for the lives of the children under their charge. They have a standardised uniform and equipment, which must be well known to your Lordships—namely, a blue cap and a white mackintosh and white sign. To suggest that there is any danger
1012
in this project is, I suggest with great respect, most misguided. We cannot afford to overlook or to neglect any method which promises to reduce road casualties. I hope that the Government will be firm and that the House will give this Bill a Second Reading to-day. Any Committee details can be dealt with in the usual way.
6.44 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I rise only to say a word or two about this matter. I hope that the Government will secure the Second Reading to-day and proceed with the Bill as rapidly as possible. I have listened to the objections to this Bill. I do not say for a moment that they are not worthy of consideration. For instance, I appreciate that it is necessary to have suitable people to carry out these duties; and I appreciate also that it may be desirable to try an experiment with school children carrying out these duties. But there is nothing in this Bill to prevent that. On the question of getting suitable people to act as school crossing patrols, I would point out that this Bill is permissive: it does not compel local authorities to appoint patrols. But where they do, surely local authorities who are accustomed to employing people (sometimes we think that they are over-employing people) will employ people who are suitable for the purpose. You do not normally put into a measure giving powers to a local authority to carry out their duties a clause that they must employ suitable people and must ensure that these people are properly trained. We take that for granted in the case of responsible bodies like local authorities, and I think we may assume that if they exercise these powers, they will employ the right kind of people. Moreover, there is nothing in this Bill which would prevent the experiment which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, would wish to introduce into this country. What he has told us is very impressive, and one would like to see an experiment carried out somewhere. But I do not think that that is a reason for holding up this Bill. I regard it as urgent, and I think any noble Lord who seeks to hold up the passage of the Bill is not rendering a service in the interests of the safety of our school children.
6.47 p.m.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, as I promised at the beginning, I shall do my best to deal with lie not inconsiderable number of points which have been raised by various noble Lords. I had hoped at the beginning that the general wish would be to support this Bill in principle and, in purpose. But various noble Lords have dealt with it in detail and there seems very little of the principle left. Nevertheless, when I come to reply to the speech of my noble friend Lord Balfour, I hope that I may be able to put his mind at rest about one or two items in regard to which I think he is under a misapprehension. Perhaps I may he able to make a suggestion to him which he may find himself able to accept.
I should like to begin with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who said that he supported the principle of the Bill and that he was glad that at last (I hope I use his words) the central authority was taking this matter under its wing. He did not think much, I gather, of what local authorities had done in this matter in the past. Well, whatever they may have done in the past, I can say this to the noble Lord: I hope that in the future this Bill will make them more conscious of this problem. I do not say this with certainty, but to the best of my knowledge there are indications that a further sixty authorities will now consider running the patrol system. The noble Lord mentioned a figure of 500 authorities. I do not know quite what figure he has in mind. The total number of local authorities affected in England and Wales is 155. Seventy-three already operate the patrol system, and if this further sixty also operate it, as we hope they may, the noble Lord will see that we shall be making very satisfactory progress in this matter.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: In mentioning the figure of 500, I was including all the rural district councils and urban district councils—the whole of the local authorities of the country.
LORD LLOYD: I hope the noble Lord will agree that this Bill will have achieved something useful if we make that progress. The noble Lord then went on to deal with the first clause of the Bill. He questioned the use of the words "may appoint." He asked, did that mean "may appoint" or "shall appoint"; and
1014
if so, was there a sanction? The answer is that the clause means exactly what it says—it means "may appoint." The Government's feeling about this matter, quite frankly, is this—indeed, this is the thought behind the whole conception of this Bill—that, on the whole, despite what the noble Lord has said, we do treat the local authorities as responsible people and people who have this matter just as much at heart as we have. And we believe that it is better to treat them in that way instead of using the big stick, and saying, "You must do this: you must do that. You must run your affairs this way; you must run your affairs that way." We believe it is better to do it by persuasion. To that extent this is an enabling Bill. As I have explained there are already indications that a further sixty authorities are going to undertake to establish school patrols. Therefore, I claim that that is a certain justification for the method we have adopted.
The noble Lord referred to the question of standards in the selection of patrols. That is a matter which I think I will deal with at the same time as I deal with the remarks on the subject by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Both those noble Lords dealt with the same point. Of course, we all appreciate that this is a very important matter. But I must remind your Lordships that some speeches which have been made here this afternoon would tend to give anyone the impression that this was an entirely new system which is being introduced. In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye—and I took his words down—asked: "Why is the present system being swept away; why are we going to have this new system?"
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: And these new offences.
LORD LLOYD: The present system is not being swept away under this Bill. When the Bill has become an Act, your Lordships will probably find precisely the same people doing precisely the same job. Perhaps the noble Lord's friend with the dim vision will not be doing it, and it may be that he ought not o be doing it; but as to his friend with the wooden leg, woo probably carries out this duty very well, I have no doubt that the noble Lord will still find him there. This is not the introduction of a new code, and a new system.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I am very sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but this is not an enabling Bill. It is a conferring Bill. It confers new powers on a body of men; it creates new offences and new powers.
LORD LLOYD: The noble Lord and I can only disagree on that. With great respect, I do not think that what he says is quite true. Perhaps if I go on for a little longer I shall be able to prove that to him. Your Lordships must remember that this is a system which, on the whole, has proved itself. We are not embarking on a new experiment; it has been in operation for a number of years in some parts of the country. Of course, you can always pick out one individual patrol here and there for criticism. I am not saying that there are no bad ones. But, speaking as one who motors a considerable number of miles over the roads of this country every year, I am surprised how efficient these patrols are, generally speaking. I do not believe that the system, so far, has worked badly.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: It has worked very well.
LORD LLOYD: Having said that, I agree that it is important that the people for this work should be selected with some care. And I think they have been so selected in the past. Several noble Lords have said, "Why is not this in the Bill?" Here again, I should like to make the Government's attitude perfectly clear. We have, as I said, treated the local authorities as responsible bodies; and they are responsible bodies, elected by democratic methods. They can be removed after three years if the people do not think they are doing their job properly. Normally, when you impose a responsibility on a person or a corporation you do not, in a Bill, tell him or them exactly how to do the job and exactly who is to be consulted. To do so would be slightly derogatory to them. We are confident that they can be trusted to do the job properly, and we consider that they have done it properly up to now. Our main complaint is that not enough of them have done it. Those who have been doing it have been doing it admirably.
EARL HOWE: Might I ask the noble Lord whether he does not think that the people to be employed on this duty should have a standardised system of training?
LORD LLOYD: If the noble Earl will forgive me, I am coming to that matter. I think there is a certain difficulty about standardised training. As I have intimated, I do not think you will get ready co-operation and help from local authorities if you are going to tell them the whole time exactly what they have to do and how they are to do it. I think you have to give them a certain latitude. It is a fact, to which I should like to draw the noble Earl's attention, that in the great majority of cases where patrols are being operated the local authorities do, in point of fact, go to the chief of police and get him to decide where these crossings should be and the best way of training the patrols. And in a great many instances the police actually train these patrols. But I think it would be a mistake to force that on local authorities. It may be that some local authorities employ a retired police officer as an instructor, and in such cases they probably do not wish to get rid of him. If you force them to go to the police for their instruction, they would be obliged to get rid of him, and it might well be that he was a man who was doing his job very efficiently indeed. So I do not think we want to make this too rigid. I have sufficient respect for local authorities to believe that if we leave them with this responsibility they will carry it out. Though I yield to none in my recognition of the importance of picking and selecting people for this work with care, I feel that, on the whole, the results which have so far been achieved are a justification for what we are proposing to do now.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, further asked me what is the position of patrols if the police run them. The position is exactly the same as in other cases. The patrols will not be policemen. All that it really means is that the organisation and administration will be carried out by the police, instead of by the local authorities.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that clear. I am afraid that I misread this completely. The clause says that:
"Any arrangements…may include an agreement between the council and the police authority…for the performance by the police authority, on such terms as may be specified in the agreement, of such functions for the purposes of the arrangements as may be so specified."

1017
I thought that meant that police officers would act as patrols. I am grateful to the noble Lord for making the matter clear.
LORD LLOYD: It means that the police take over the whole matter, pick the people to act as patrols and train them. But the patrols are not police officers; they are exactly the same sort of people as if the local authorities were operating the system.
The noble Lord also dealt with the matter of uniform. In reply to that, I might perhaps deal with what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said on the subject of standardisation. I thoroughly agree fiat the whole object of the uniform is Oat there should be what the noble Lord called a "uniform uniform"—that is to say, you want a dress for these patrols which is recognisable by all motorists. This system is for the convenience of motorists.
EARL HOWE: Including foreign motorists. Perhaps I may be allowed to explain my point. Large numbers of foreign motorists come over to this country every year, bringing their own cars, as we all know, and we want to encourage them, in the interests of touring and the hotel industry and so on. It is important that these patrols should wear a uniform which these foreign motorists also will recognise.
LORD LLOYD: I hardly think we can be expected to have a uniform which foreigners may be accustomed to see in their own country. The noble Earl has suggested that the uniform should include white Sam Brownes, because they are worn in some countries abroad. I am not sure that I would concede that we must follow completely the example of foreigners, for we still have our own ways in this country, but I do not see any reason why we could not have a uniform which all foreigners would recognise. I was interested in my noble friend's suggestion about white Sam Brownes, and I will certainly bring it to the attention of my right honourable friend. The idea is that uniform and equipment should be standardised.
I come, finally, to this vexed question of signs. I suppose that the noble Lord would regard me as an evil and adulterous generation seeking after a sign, and he would not give me one. I am in
1018
favour of the sign and not of the noble Lord's system. I think there are good reasons for preferring the sign. If there is anything in the criticisms of my noble friends, that there is a risk of not having sufficiently skilled people on this job, I think the simpler we make the operation the safer it will be for everybody. If we have a standard sign that everybody knows carried by all school crossing patrols, that is the better idea. I think there is a danger in having patrols to control traffic manually. The present system has been a success and I would rather follow up the system that we have. I cannot guarantee to demonstrate to your Lordships how to control traffic with a sign—I think that would be out of order—but a new sign is now being designed which will be lighter and a good deal more portable than the existing one. That, I think, may go some way to meet the noble Lord's point of the unwieldiness of the sign.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Surely it would be in order, subject to the authorities of the House, for the noble Lord to undertake to produce a prototype at the next stage of the Bill. It would be most interesting and instructive for noble Lords to see what this part of the equipment actually is.
LORD LLOYD: I hesitate to give your Lordships an undertaking that the new sign can be produced in time for the next stage of this Bill: it may be too soon. All I can say is that I will do my best; and if the sign is available at that stage, I will see what arrangements can be made to meet the noble Lord's convenience. Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, asked me for a definition of the word "exhibiting." I think "holding prominently where people can see it" is a good definition: I know of no other. But I will look into the legal side of this to see whether there is any mystery about the word "exhibiting," and I hope that I shall be able on Committee stage to satisfy him about that.
The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, made two points. On his first point about zebra crossings, I agree will him in principle, but I would make the qualification that obviously there would have to be zebra crossings somewhere near the schools, and there may happen not to be crossings at convenient points. I think the more

1019
we keep these crossings down the better, but I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to this point. I agree equally with what the noble Lord said about teaching road safety in schools. The schools must not think that because we are producing an improved system, the need for teaching road safety has ceased, because that is not so.
I should like to say a word or two in reply to my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye. I know the noble Lord does not agree with me about this, but while he is correct in the letter about the new uniformed force, he is not right in spirit. Even if we were to get rid of the uniform the patrols would still be the same people. The reasons why we are giving them uniform are for the greater protection of the motorists and for standardisation. I do not think it is true to say that their powers are increased. The situation is that to-day any citizen can report any motorist to the police if he sees a motorist doing something contrary to the existing law. If, for example, my noble friend drives up to a "Halt" sign at a major road and does not halt but drives straight across, any member of the public standing by can take his number and report the offence to the local police. The local police will then decide whether or not to summon the noble Lord. The patrols have no more power than that. If an offence occurs at a patrolled crossing, all the patrol himself can do is to take the car number and report it to the police. The only difference there may be is that in the case of the "Halt" sign which I mentioned there may not be a witness, but at school crossings there will always be a witness, and the danger to motorists of being apprehended is that much more serious. I do not think the noble Lord's apprehensions about this uniformed force are as serious as he makes out. The existing patrols will be carrying on, and, though I admit they will now have uniforms, they will have exactly the same powers as before.
My noble friend asked me why the Government thought it necessary to create a new offence in this Bill. It is already an offence under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, as amended by the 1934 Act, and all we are doing is to take the offence out of that Act and put it into this Bill, because we hope that in due course we shall have in one Act all
1020
the legislation as regards school crossing patrols. I think that is simpler and tidier. The penalty has been increased, but only in London. Under the present Acts the existing penalties in London are £5 for a first offence and, outside London, £20 for a first offence and £50 for a second. Under the Bill the penalties will be £20 for a first offence and £20 for a second offence. So that the offenders inside London will have to pay the same as those outside on the first offence and on the second offence people outside London will be better off, in having to pay only £20 instead of £50. This is such a serious offence that I think it right that the penalty should be fairly stiff, and I hope that my noble friend will not differ from me there.
My noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye also said that this new uniformed body would make the position of motorists in the courts quite different. I do not know how the noble Lord works that out, because I think our courts are still conducted in accordance with the laws of evidence and justice. I do not believe that the fact that a man appears in a white mackintosh when he gives his evidence, will make a great deal of difference. I hope not. I am sure the courts will deal with these matters with their customary justice, and I do not believe the noble Lord's fears are really justified.
Finally, my noble friend asked me if I would give an undertaking to put in the Bill itself specific provisions about the training and selecting of personnel. I appreciate his anxiety on this point, but it would not be right if I were to give an undertaking which I could not be certain of carrying out. I do not think he would wish me to do that and certainly I do not wish to do it. What I can say to the noble Lord, as his anxieties have been shared by other noble Lords, is that we will certainly look at the matter. I have told him why, on the whole, I do not wish to fetter local authorities unduly; it is because I do not think it will work best if we do that. But I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what he has said. We will look at it, and see whether any provision which would satisfy the noble Lord could be inserted to give him greater guarantees about the question of training and selection, which I gather

1021
was the point he had in mind. Of course, that is not an undertaking to put anything in the Bill, but I will undertake to see what can be done.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Would the noble Lord enlarge the undertaking to this extent: that he will give us time between now and the further stages of the Bill, so that, supposing the Government intimate that they are unable to comply with the requests which have come from all quarters of the House, those of us who feel troubled about the matter may have a chance of putting down Amendments? Perhaps he will undertake to give us, through the usual channels, some indication of the deliberations of the Government.
LORD LLOYD: I can certainly give that undertaking to the noble Lord; in fact, if it is of any assistance, I shall be only too glad to consult with him between now and the next stage of the Bill. He asked how much money this will cost. I cannot give him an exact estimate, but the full cost to the Exchequer has been estimated at £80,000 a year—that is, excluding the equalisation grant—and a further £80,000 will have to be met from the rates.
I have dealt with most of the points raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, but not the question of scholar patrols, a matter on which he was supported by the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh. The figures which the noble Earl gave were rather impressive, and I hope that what he has said will be studied by local authorities and others concerned with this matter. I would say this to him: that there is nothing in this Bill which would prevent scholar patrols from being organised. The patrols themselves could be school crossing patrols within the meaning of the Bill.
EARL HOWE: Perhaps it could be harnessed to the Bill.
LORD LLOYD: I am advised that it is possible to have scholar patrols within the framework of the Bill without amending the Bill. The scholar patrol would merely become a school crossing patrol within the meaning of the Bill. Therefore, I do not think anything prevents local authorities from adopting scholar
1022
patrols if they desire to do so. I am afraid that I have spoken at some length, but I have done my best to answer all the points raised.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Before the noble Lord concludes, there is one point of importance which I raised and which he has not answered. What is the position of rural district councils, vis-à-vis county councils, as to their authority in this matter?
LORD LLOYD: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. The situation fulfils his worst fears. The county councils are the authorities here. I do not think it would be practicable, on financial and other grounds, to make rural district councils responsible for this particular service.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): Perhaps the noble Lord would look at Clause 1 (2).
LORD LLOYD: Also, if the noble Lord locks at Clause 1 (3) he will see that, although they have not power in this matter, rural district councils and others can make representation to the county councils on their particular problems. I trust that that satisfies the noble Lord. I hope that your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

REGISTRATION SERVICE BILL [H.L.]
7.14 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

TYNEMOUTH CORPORATION BILL
Reported, with Amendments.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at a quarter past seven o'clock