Sitting of 2 July 1953

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Companies, West Indies (Tax Concessions)
    Mr. Braineasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of representations made to him concerning the ill-effects of the United Kingdom tax practice, whereby companies registered in this country but operating in the West Indies are denied the benefit of tax concessions specifically designed by West Indian Governments to encourage economic development, he will state what action he is proposing to take.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. R. Maudling): This matter was fully discussed during the Committee stage debates on the Finance Bill. As I then explained, my right hon. Friend could not include in this year's Finance Bill the complicated legislation which would be necessary to carry out the recommendation which the Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income made on this point in their interim Report. He has not, however, closed his mind on this subject, and will consider it again as soon as the Royal Commission have made their final report.
    Mr. Braine: While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, as far as it goes, may I ask whether he will not agree that this practice does militate against economic expansion in the Colonies, and, to overcome these difficulties, would he consider whether the Treasury could not regard remissions of colonial tax as capital profits, which, indeed, they are?
    Mr. Maudling: I think there would be considerable difficulty in the way of adopting that suggestion, but my right hon. Friend's mind is not closed on the matter, and he would be very glad to consider any suggestions which hon. Members like to put forward.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: Could my hon. Friend say whether it would be necessary to include a provision of this sort in a Finance Bill before starting negotiations with the Governments of the territories concerned for this facility to be given?
    Mr. Maudling: I should like notice of that question, but my impression is that it would be necessary.

    Small Savings (Coronation Withdrawals)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer his estimate of the withdrawals of small depositors during the period of the Coronation; and what his explanation is of these reductions in small savings.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): I would refer the hon. Member to the weekly figures published by the National Savings Committee. Small savings always fall off at the beginning of the holiday season; the Coronation will have accentuated this seasonal trend.
    Mr. Hughes: Cannot the Minister give us some figures without referring us to these statistics? In view of the anxiety and the sleepless nights which the then Opposition used to have in the time of the Labour Government about the decline in small investments, what is he doing to prevent this decline?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The last part of that question raises much wider issues. As to the first part, the National Savings Committee goes out of its way to publish these figures weekly, and they are very easily accessible.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the desirability of encouraging my hon. Friend to take further interest in small savings, could not the hon. Gentleman give the figures for last year, showing how much small savings declined?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have not the figures for last year, which are not immediately available, but the right hon. Gentleman will be reassured to know that the figures for the first 10 weeks of the present financial year are better than those for the corresponding period of the previous year.

    Intoxicating Liquor (Coronation Week Consumption)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the sum spent on intoxicating liquor in Coronation week; and his estimate of the increased revenue likely to result from increased consumption of liquor during this period.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have no information from which to estimate expenditure on alcoholic liquor, or consequent changes in revenue, for so short a period as one week.
    Mr. Hughes: Is not the Minister optimistic about getting increased revenue as a result of the celebrations? Is he aware that the brewers and distillers are so enthusiastic about their revenue that they are pressing for an annual Coronation?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Celebrations are always a cause for optimism.

    Coronation Coinage
    Lieut.-Colonel Hydeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many sets of Coronation coins have been issued by the Mint; and whether he is satisfied that the numbers are adequate, in view of the heavy demands of collectors for this unique coinage.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: So far, 1,110,000 sets and 3,940,000 crowns have been issued against orders of 1,271,000 and 5,874,000 respectively. Although orders for the crown exceed the limit of five million, which my right hon. Friend mentioned in his reply to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) on 30th June, all outstanding orders, both of
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    crowns and sets, will be met as soon as possible. This large issue should be adequate to meet public demand for coins of ordinary finish.
    Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is still a considerable demand for these coins, particularly in Northern Ireland, and that any further action which he can take to satisfy this demand will be greatly appreciated by all concerned?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am glad to say that these coins have proved extremely popular, but in view of the many other heavy commitments on the Royal Mint I am afraid that my right hon. Friend cannot go beyond the extension which he announced the other day.

    Post-War Credits (Repayment)
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what reasons he will not propose to amend the law so as to permit post-war credits to be repaid in those cases, such as widows, where administrative difficulties do not exist because the classes of persons are readily identifiable.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: One reason is the cost. Thus, to take the hon. Gentleman's example, it would cost about £38 million in the first year to pay to widows their late husbands' post-war credits. The other reason is that to select a special class of person for preferential payment would be unfair to those excluded, particularly if their hardship were greater.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is it, then, the view of the Financial Secretary that when there is money available for distribution, the Income Tax Payer on the standard rate or the large taxpayer has a higher social priority than classes of persons in straightened circumstances who can be easily identified?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would not wish to repeat part of the main debate on the Finance Bill in reply to a Parliamentary Question, but I must recall to the hon. Gentleman that this step was not taken by the Administration of which he was a Member, which also disposed of substantial sums of public money.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is it not the case that the reasons hitherto advanced have been administrative difficulties, and is not the hon. Gentleman now going further and saying that, although those difficulties can be removed, nevertheless, he proposes to repay companies' taxation rather than give it to these people?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am not going enter into a debate, but I will agree with the hon. Gentleman to this extent, that this Government are more capable of overcoming administrative difficulties than were the last Government.
    Mr. Shinwell: Do I understand from what the hon. Gentleman has said that because there is administrative difficulty, or some other difficulty, in selecting one particular class for this purpose, nothing is to be done for anybody?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: We are at present continuing the repayments under the system originated by the late Administration. The right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to anticipate such further steps as may be possible.

    Covent Garden (Arts Council Grant)
    Mr. Vaneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the grant to Covent Garden made by the Arts Council has steadily risen from £25,000 in 1945–46 to about £150,000 and now represents half the total grants made in support of opera, ballet and music throughout the whole country; and whether he will in future make it a condition of his grant that it should be more fairly distributed.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: My right, hon. Friend is aware of the heavy cost of maintaining an opera house of international standard and that the Arts Council's grant to Covent Garden represents more than half of its total expenditure on opera, ballet and music. But it would not be appropriate, or in accordance with the Arts Council's charter, for him to make conditions as to the apportionment of the Council's grant-in-aid.
    Mr. Vane: Will my hon. Friend look into this again? Surely he cannot support the trend that more and more of this grant should be spent in London and less and less in the provinces. Does he really think it right that if the mass choirs at a county musical festival want to sing the
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    "Messiah" they are turned down by the Arts Council on that score alone—although what the Arts Council has against the "Messiah," I do not know—whereas if Covent Garden want to perform "Gloriana" the financial support they receive seems almost unlimited?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: To my mind, both the examples to which my hon. Friend has referred reinforce the desirability of leaving these matters to the Arts Council and of not expecting Ministers to indulge in aesthetic judgments.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Will the hon. Gentleman resist any pressure to reduce the grant to Covent Garden, which is now barely adequate and considerably smaller than the subsidies granted to the major opera houses on the Continent?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Speaking from memory, I think the hon. Gentleman is quite right in the latter part of his question in as much as Continental operas are very heavily subsidised. As regards the first part of his Question, I do not think that my hon. Friend was suggesting any such reduction.

    Government Departments (Debt)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state, to the nearest £1,000,000, the amount of debt held by Government Departments on 31st March, 1953, under the headings of Floating Debt and Other Internal Debt (excluding Bonds tendered for Death Duties), respectively.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am afraid that this information is not yet available, but it will, as usual, be published in the National Debt Return later in the year.
    Sir W. Smithers: When it is available, will my hon. Friend send me a copy?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As I understand, my hon. Friend would be entitled to such a paper, but, if it will come with greater force from me, I shall be very glad to send it.

    Food Import Cuts (Dollar Savings)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of dollars saved by cuts in food imports in 1952.
    Mr. Maudling: Food imports from the dollar area were reduced by £50 million in 1952 compared with 1951.
    Mr. Hurd: Will the Treasury look particularly at those restrictions on dollar food imports that are prolonging food rationing, as in the case of cooking fats?
    Mr. Maudling: We are anxious to remove restrictions on food imports as soon as it is possible to do so. In the case of sugar, of course, that is soon to take place.

  OVER-FISHING
  Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps the Government is now taking alone and in conjunction with foreign governments to deal with the problem of over-fishing in the North Sea and other seas to which British fishermen have access.
  The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries (Sir Thomas Dugdale): The governments signatory to the International Fisheries Convention of 1946 have agreed to apply in their several countries by 5th April, 1954, the requirements of the Convention in regard to the minimum size of mesh of nets and the minimum size-limits of fish which may be landed or sold. The minimum size-limit provisions are already in force in the United Kingdom under the Sea Fishing Industry (Immature Sea Fish) Order, 1948. The new minimum sizes of mesh will be introduced with effect from 5th April, 1954, by means of an Order to be laid before the House in due course.
  Her Majesty's Government hope that the Permanent Commission now established under the 1946 Convention will be able to agree upon such further measures as may be necessary to conserve the fish stocks and to prevent over-fishing in the waters covered by the Convention. This is essentially a matter for international agreement among the fishing nations of Western and Northern Europe.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that that is rather a legalistic answer, and will he explain in plain language what will be the effect of what has happened on the fishing industry and on the larder of the housewife?
  Sir T. Dugdale: In perfectly plain language, I am very satisfied with the way this body is starting. They came together early in the year, they got on
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  extremely well together, and I am satisfied that they have the intention to make the thing work.
  Mr. D. Marshall: My right hon. Friend mentioned several countries. Can he say whether Spain is one of those countries?
  Sir T. Dugdale: Yes, Sir.

  AGRICULTURE

    Farmers (Grading Procedure)
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture how many county committees have relinquished the grading of farmers as part of the farm survey procedure.
    Sir T. Dugdale: Thirty-four, Sir.
    Mr. Peart: In June of last year the Minister sent out a letter which was preceded by an important circular dealing with the farm survey. Does he not agree that these committees are acting wrongly, and will he take some action in the matter?
    Sir T. Dugdale: No, Sir. The circular which I sent out altered the procedure so that the counties could themselves select the particular method they wished to adopt. As a result of that circular, 34 counties do not now grade their farms A, B and C.

    Fanning (Younger Men)
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture what response he has had from county committees concerning his circular C.A.E.C. 52/58, 1st September, 1952, which deals with arrangements to facilitate the entry of younger men into farming.
    Sir T. Dugdale: At the end of 1952, one building licence had been issued on the advice of a county committee, and three other cases were under consideration. Since that date the need for the scheme has disappeared, as local authorities have been authorised to issue licences freely for the building of small dwelling-houses of not more than 1,000 square feet in area.

    Fanners (Credit Facilities)
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that present credit facilities for farmers are inadequate

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    to meet the needs of the food production drive; and what action he is taking.
    Sir T. Dugdale: I have no reason to believe that, broadly speaking, the attainment of the objectives of the food production drive is being prevented by shortage of credit. I shall, however, continue to keep a very close watch on the situation.
    Mr. Peart: Is the Minister aware that before the General Election his party, time and time again, promised to give credit facilities to small farmers, and that the Chancellor, in a speech which he made before introducing his Budget, promised to consider this matter sympathetically, and gave a firm declaration that he would do something about it? When can we have some action?
    Sir T. Dugdale: I have answered the Question on the Order Paper. I think it is true that at present the increased production programme is not being held up by want of further credit, but I am watching the position all the time.
    Mr. Baldwin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that credit-worthy farmers can get all the credit they want from the banks and from the traders, and that what farmers really want is to be able to keep a bit more of their hard won profits so that they can repay the debts they already owe?
    Mr. Peart: Is the Minister aware that owing to the raising of the Bank rate, the interest rate of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation was increased?
    Sir T. Dugdale: It has now gone down again.
    Mr. Peart: But not enough.

    Farming, Wales and Monmouthshire
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Agriculture the present number of people employed in agriculture in Wales and Monmouthshire; and how it compares with last year.
    Sir T. Dugdale: According to the agricultural returns for March of this year, the total number of regular and casual agricultural workers in Wales and Monmouth was 46,552 as compared with 45,726 in March, 1952. The figures for
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    March last were based on returns from a one-third sample of occupiers only and may be liable to a small margin of error.
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Agriculture how many farmers are under supervision in the Principality of Wales and in the county of Glamorgan, at the latest available date.
    Sir T. Dugdale: At the end of May, 43 farmers were under supervision for bad husbandry in Glamorgan and 272 in Wales and Monmouth.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will my right hon. Friend explain why it was necessary for the Minister to exercise these dictatorial methods and why, if farmers are supervised and controlled, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers are not?
    Sir T. Dugdale: That is entirely another question, but I would not accept the implication conveyed by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Gower: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that in any case when this is done, due attention is paid to the peculiar difficulties of farming in some parts of Wales?
    Sir T. Dugdale: Yes, Sir.

    Milk-Recording Movement
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the expansion of the milk-recording movement has ceased; and what steps he intends to take to remedy this.
    Sir T. Dugdale: I am aware that the rapid expansion of the milk-recording movement during the last 10 years has ceased, at least for the time being. My Department is considering, with the Milk Marketing Board, possible means of encouraging a further expansion in milk recording. These include proposals for the introduction of a simplified and cheaper form of recording to suit the needs of the commercial milk producer.
    Mr. de Freitas: Since it is the aim of the breeders to produce breeds that give more milk and fewer calves, and since these records are good evidence for the breeders to work on, cannot the right hon. Gentleman do something more to expand this recording of milk?
    Sir T. Dugdale: As a matter of fact, recording it is going very well at the moment. Although only about 25,000 herds are officially recorded they include about a quarter of our dairy cows. They include, to a very great extent, the special cows of the breeding society. The new scheme which I am now trying to introduce is to help the small man who is producing milk commercially in a small way.

    Warble Fly Order (Administration)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture what progress has been made this summer in dealing with warble fly in cattle; and what action has been taken under the Warble Fly Order.
    Sir T. Dugdale: My Department has again conducted a publicity campaign to remind farmers of their obligation to dress warble-infested cattle, but it is too early yet to assess the effectiveness of this campaign since the dressing season has only just ended. Preliminary reports indicate that the response from farmers may have been somewhat better this year than in the past. The administration of the Warble Fly Order is the responsibility of the police and local authorities, and I regret I have no information about any proceedings that have been taken under the Order.
    Mr. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend keep a much closer watch on this problem than has been kept for many years past and, in view of the success of the Ministry's methods in dealing with sheep scab, see whether the same kind of method cannot be applied to warble fly?
    Sir T. Dugdale: I think my hon. Friend will agree that this is a more difficult problem to spot. My Department is carrying out an experiment in the Isle of Wight to assess how it might be possible to exercise a very tight control, and how much it will cost.

    Fowl Typhoid, Yorkshire (Inquiry)
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will now make a statement concerning the inquiry which his Department is conducting in Yorkshire into the incidence of fowl typhoid.
    Sir T. Dugdale: This inquiry is being conducted by members of my veterinary
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    staff. The main objects are to obtain more information about the behaviour and control of this disease in the field and to investigate further the use of vaccination as a preventive measure. The inquiry is still going on. A new vaccine is being used experimentally on selected flocks, but it will be some time before results can be assessed.

    Advisory Service
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Agriculture the relationship between the National Agricultural Advisory Service and the county agricultural executive committees; and if he will take steps to ensure that no one shall be a member of both these committees.
    Sir T. Dugdale: Members of the National Agricultural Advisory Service, who are civil servants, act as executive and advisory officers of county agricultural executive committees, and the chief officers of these committees and their district committees are normally drawn from the Service. Civil servants, whether members of the N.A.A.S. or not, are never appointed as members of county agricultural executive committees.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is it not contrary to British justice that anyone who gives advice should be judge in a case where that advice is not followed?
    Sir T. Dugdale: The members of the Advisory Service are in no way judges.
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the full value of the National Agricultural Advisory Service is not being secured because farmers most in need of help and advice are afraid to call in officers of the Service because they fear that it will set in motion the dispossession functions of the county agricultural executive; and what action he will take to put an end to this.
    Sir T. Dugdale: My hon. Friend's suggestion is entirely erroneous. So far from being afraid to call on the National Agricultural Advisory Service, farmers of all kinds are steadily increasing their requests for help from the Service.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will the Minister not stop these totalitarian methods of supervising and dispossessing farmers,

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    especially when those farmers have no right of appeal to a traditional court of law?
    Sir T. Dugdale: That has nothing whatever to do with the Question. The National Agricultural Advisory Service is there for the sole purpose of giving advice to farmers on the best means of cultivation and good husbandry.

    Fowl Pest
    Mr. Finlayasked the Minister of Agriculture to what extent fowl pest has now abated; and when he will be able to lift the ban against fewer than 25 head of live poultry being sent to a public market.
    Sir T. Dugdale: I am sorry to say that fowl pest has not abated. There have been 457 outbreaks since 1st January, 1953, compared with 498 in the whole of 1952. I cannot say when it will be possible to lift the ban on fewer than 25 head of store poultry being sent to market.
    Mr. Finlay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this ban operates partially on smallholders and will he consider, in individual areas where the position improves, relaxing it progressively?
    Sir T. Dugdale: I am always ready to consider relaxing restrictions of this kind—I know they are irksome—but the whole point is to try to help the industry.

    Vermin (Destruction)
    Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Agriculture in view of the fact that rats and mice destroy approximately 2,000,000 tons of food a year, while insect pests destroy a large additional quantity, and that the total loss to the nation is of the order of £30 million per annum, what steps he is taking to strengthen the Infestation Control Division.
    Sir T. Dugdale: There are many people and organisations engaged in the control and destruction of rats, mice and insect pests. Their joint efforts are securing a continual and substantial reduction in these pests. The Infestation Control Division of my Department is playing its full part in this work, and although changes and improvements in organisation are being made from time to time I am satisfied that no major alterations are required.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: May I ask the Minister for the assurance which he felt unable to give a fortnight ago, that he will resist proposals for the reduction of this service?
    Sir T. Dugdale: There is no suggestion of reducing the organisation of the division on economy grounds, for that would be a false economy. On the other hand, it may be necessary from time to time to make changes within the division which may reduce personnel or in other cases increase it. I can give the right hon. Gentleman a complete assurance that no reduction of the organisation on grounds of economy will be contemplated.
    Mr. Paget: Who adds up what mice eat?
    Sir T. Dugdale: I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman's right hon. Friend on the Front Bench made the best calculation he could.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: It was based on calculations over many years.
    Mr. G. Williamsasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is taking to ensure that the new rat destroyer, "Warfarin," is made sufficiently well known to the public.
    Sir T. Dugdale: The advantages of "Warfarin" as a rat poison have been brought to the attention of the public through the Press and are a feature of the Ministry's civic and agricultural show exhibits about the destruction of rats during the present year.
    Mr. Williams: Is it non-poisonous to other animals, and very costly in use?
    Sir T. Dugdale: It is very successful. I prefer to write to my hon. Friend in reply to the first part of his supplementary question.
    Mr. G. Williamsasked the Minister of Agriculture the number of tails of grey squirrels that have been paid for by his officials up to date.
    Sir T. Dugdale: Up to 13th June, the number of tails paid for by the cash bonus and the free issue of cartridges is 112,400.
    Mr. Williams: Can my right hon. Friend tell me whether it is an economic proposition to breed grey squirrels so as

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    to get 1s. a head for their tails, and, if so, will he reduce the rewards? Secondly, has he had any report of boys capturing grey squirrels, cutting off their tails and releasing them to breed more grey squirrels and obtain more tails?
    Sir T. Dugdale: The answer to the first part of that supplementary question is "No." I would not think it an economic proposition to breed grey squirrels. As to the second, I have, personally, no complaint at all, although I have heard a suggestion that this practice may be in operation.
    Mr. Hastings: What does the Minister do with the tail of a grey squirrel when he gets it?
    Sir T. Dugdale: That is not my responsibility.
    Captain Waterhouse: To meet the danger suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge (Mr. G. Williams), would it not be a better plan to give 1s. a tail per head?

    Pigs (Weight Ranges)
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he has taken to satisfy himself that pig producers will be able to take advantage of the consumer demand for bacon and pork pigs when the new weight ranges are introduced.
    Sir T. Dugdale: The schedule of prices for pigs introduced last April was designed to encourage farmers to market pigs of the type required for the pork and bacon trades today. I am sure that farmers can and will produce pigs of the right type and quality to meet consumer demands. My Department and the Ministry of Food are co-operating with the National Farmers' Union to help farmers to do so.

    Animal Feedingstuffs (Control)
    Mr. G. Wilsonasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will expedite the decontrol of animal feedingstuffs since the system of collecting coupons for such feedingstuffs is breaking down.
    Sir T. Dugdale: No, Sir. The system must be maintained until the 31st July so that merchants who wish to replace stocks during this month may be able to exchange their coupons for permits to buy feedingstuffs.
    Mr. Wilson: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that the system is already not working at all in some places, and would it not be better to abandon it forthwith?
    Sir T. Dugdale: To bring in a new system, which my hon. Friend's suggestion would mean, would not be practicable for a matter of a few weeks. In point of fact, the Ministry of Food have given a guarantee to the trade that having fixed a date for derationing they will stick to it.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Fire Service (Part-timers and Volunteers)
    Mr. Pargiterasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of part-time and volunteer firemen in the fire services of Great Britain in 1936; and what was the comparable figure in March, 1953, or to the latest available prior date.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): Complete figures for 1936 are not available, but from returns obtained for the Riverdale Committee on Fire Brigade Services which reported in that year it is estimated that there were between 15,000 and 16,000 part-time firemen in the brigades in Great Britain which had motor pumping appliances. These figures do not include policemen employed part-time on fire brigade duties.
    The number of part-time firemen serving in Great Britain on 31st December, 1952, was 16,900.
    Mr. Pargiter: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that very misleading figures are frequently published in the Press about these matters, particularly in connection with the cost of the fire service, which cause very considerable concern to some local authorities and to the personnel? Will he do his best to counteract these misleading statements, which are based very often on very misleading pre-war figures.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I was not aware that misleading figures have been published, but it is true that changes have taken place since 1936 and I do not think tha any conclusion can be arrived at from a comparison of these two years.

    Flood and Storm Damage Victims (Relief)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much has now been paid out in compensation and relief to those who suffered in last winter's tempest and flood in Great Britain as a whole and in the county of Essex; approximately what sum is still to be disbursed on claims outstanding; and to what extent claims are now being considered in respect of property, such as holiday chalets or beach huts, whose owners' qualification for compensation has been regarded as marginal.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: My right hon. and learned Friend is informed by the Lord Mayor that up to 26th June, £2,636,000 had been paid out in Great Britain, including £950,700 in the county of Essex. It is not possible to say what sum remains unpaid on outstanding applications.
    The latest information on the policy of the Fund towards claims in respect of damage to holiday chalets and beach huts is contained in the Memorandum of Guidance No. 6, a copy of which is available in the Library.
    Mr. Driberg: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the figures he has quoted about the Lord Mayor's Fund cover all the money that has now been paid out, and whether the Lord Mayor's Fund is now being used exclusively for what was thought to be its proper original purpose—that is, to relieve individual cases of hardship rather than to pay large sums in compensation to firms?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I think that the answer to that question is "Yes." The Fund is now being used for the purpose which I have indicated in my answer.
    Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the concern at the substantial number of mailbags and sacks containing gifts intended for flood victims which still remain unopened; and, in view of the generosity of the public, if he will make a statement on the present position.
    Mr. Lewisasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the matter of the deterioration of clothing sent by the public for flood victims, in view of the information sent to him by the hon. Member for West Ham, North.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I would refer the hon. Members to the answer which my right hon. and learned Friend gave on 25th June to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis).
    Mr. Dodds: Does the hon. Gentleman not appreciate that many statements have been made since then about the mountains of parcels that have not yet been opened? Does not the Government think that in view of the kindness of the public they have an obligation to see that volunteers are available to get these parcels opened?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: The evidence which has been given of these mountains of parcels has not always been correct. In one case a photograph was published in the Press of a mountain of parcels which consisted, in fact, of sorted and clean clothing awaiting despatch. The hon. Member should be sure of his facts before making allegations of this kind.
    Mr. Dodds: Is the Minister not aware of the statement which was made 10 days ago by the Cambridgeshire regional organiser of the W.V.S. that she had only two women at one depot, who were working 12 hours a day, and that if she had 20 women the work would be completed by the end of July? Has the hon. Gentleman not made inquiries about the position from the London headquarters of the W.V.S., which is only a few hundred yards from this Chamber? I have done so.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: The hon. Member will see from the answer given on 25th June that the W.V.S. state that they have no evidence whatsoever to the effect which he suggests.
    Mr. Driberg: Does the Minister say definitely, then, that all the parcels have been opened?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I do not say that they have all been opened, but I say that there is no evidence that the clothes are being destroyed, as has been suggested.

    Prisoner, Swansea (Transfer)
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why he will not transfer from Swansea prison to Cardiff prison a prisoner whose name

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    he knows, whose home is in Cardiff, in view of the fact that he has given no reasons for keeping him in Swansea.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: While the prisons are so overcrowded and the pressure of escort duty is so heavy it is not practicable, as a general rule, to grant prisoners' applications for transfer, and my right hon. and learned Friend would not feel justified in singling out for special treatment the case which the hon. Member has brought to his notice. There are, however, certain prisoners who, having been in Cardiff prison awaiting trial, are committed to Swansea prison on conviction, and vice versa, according to the location of the court of trial; and it is proposed to authorise the two prisons to effect exchanges of such prisoners when convenient. The prisoner in question should eventually benefit under this arrangement.
    Mr. Callaghan: I am much obliged.

    National Committees (Welsh Representation)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he will make where national committees contain no Welsh representatives.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. and learned Friend gave to a Question by the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) on 25th June.
    Mr. Gower: Is my hon. Friend that the opinion is widely held in Wales that there should have been a Welsh representative on the committee dealing with the problem of flooded areas, because Wales is particularly subject to floods and soil erosion?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I am not aware that any suggestion of that kind has been made, but if my hon. Friend will take up the matter with my right hon. and learned Friend I am sure that he will look into it.

    Royal Commission On Capital Punishment (Report)
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to publish the
    578
    Report of the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment.
    Mr. Willeyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can now state when the Report of the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment will be published.
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has yet received the Report of the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: My right hon. and learned Friend is informed that he may expect to receive the Report of the Royal Commission before the end of the month. It will be presented to Parliament and published as soon as possible thereafter.
    Mr. Robinson: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that in considering this Report his right hon. and learned Friend will not exclude from his mind the question of the abolition of the death penalty, even though the Royal Commission have been specifically precluded from making this recommendation?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I think that that question goes far beyond the Question on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I have been asking Questions on this subject for months and getting the same kind of answer? Is he aware that this is a life and death matter, a very urgent matter which should be attended to urgently? Will he bring some pressure to bear on the Royal Commission to see that they report immediately?
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: As the end of the month means the end of the Session will my hon. and learned Friend see whether the Report can be presented to Parliament and published during the Recess?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I think that the answer is in the affirmative, but I will see that my right hon. and learned Friend is aware of my noble Friend's question.

    Executed Man (Murder Charge Inquiry)
    Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will order a public inquiry

    579
    into the case of Timothy John Evans, executed on a charge of having murdered his infant daughter, to see whether any miscarriage of justice occurred.
    Mr. G. H. R. Rogersasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what additional charges were made against Timothy John Evans, who was executed after having been convicted of the murder of his child; and, in view of the fact that recent events have given grounds for the belief that a miscarriage of justice has occurred, if he will order an inquiry.
    Dr. Kingasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will order an inquiry into the events for which Timothy John Evans was found guilty of murder.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the widespread public anxiety about the conviction and execution of Timothy John Evans, he will arrange for the circumstances of that case to be reviewed.
    Mr. S. O. Daviesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, having regard to the revelations made in a recent trial, he will cause an inquiry to be made into all the circumstances leading to the death sentence on Timothy John Evans.
    Mr. Patonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the public disquiet at the possibility of a miscarriage of justice in the conviction and execution for murder of Timothy John Evans in 1950; and if he will set up an authoritative commission to hold a public inquiry into the circumstances of this case.
    Mr. Willeyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the additional information which is now available and which was not available at the trial, he will order an immediate inquiry about the conviction and execution of Timothy John Evans.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: My right hon. and learned Friend is, of course, giving urgent consideration to this matter, but he is not in a position at present to make any statement. In any event, he would not think it right to make any statement or
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    to comment on the issues involved while it is still open to the prisoner Christie to appeal.
    Mr. Silverman: Would the hon. Gentleman convey to his right hon. and learned Friend that nobody expects him to make any statement or any comment upon any issue raised in any of these cases? All that the Question asks is whether he will order a public inquiry. Will he bear in mind that public confidence in the administration of justice has been gravely shaken—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It has—that it is most important that it should be restored, and that it can only be restored by the fullest possible open inquiry into all the matters involved?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: It cannot be known on what grounds an appeal by Christie would be based, if it were made, and a decision either way might appear to prejudge some issue raised by an appeal. I can assure the House that as soon as possible after the time in which it is open to Christie to appeal has expired, or, if he should appeal, after such an appeal has been determined, my right hon. and learned Friend will make a statement.
    Mr. Rogers: May I ask the Under-Secretary two questions? First, as the time for an appeal expires on Sunday, is it possible that we might have a statement from the hon. Gentleman or his right hon. and learned Friend on Monday? Secondly, would he inform his right hon. and learned Friend that a great many people who are interested in this matter believe that it is desirable that the inquiry, if held, should not be in camera but should be an open inquiry, with the parties interested properly represented and available for cross-examination?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I note what the hon. Member says, and I will see that my right hon. and learned Friend is advised of it.
    Mr. Rogers: May I have an answer to the first part of my supplementary, if the hon. Gentleman knows it? Are we likely to have a statement on Monday, which is the day after the expiry of the time for an appeal?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I cannot give an answer now, but my right hon. and learned Friend will certainly make a statement as soon as he possibly can.
    Dr. King: Would the Minister not agree that while it is dangerous to prejudge the implications of what has happened since the trial, there is grave anxiety in every corner of the land about those implications, and can he not help justice itself by speeding the inquiry and seeing that it is held at the earliest possible moment?
    Mr. Greenwood: May we deduce from the hon. Gentleman's answer that if any such inquiry is held it will be held before still another mouth is closed by the imposition of this barbarous punishment? As the hon. Gentleman bases his reply upon the fate of Christie, may I ask whether he is aware that yesterday the psychiatrist who appeared on Christie's behalf at the trial was refused permission to visit him in Pentonville Gaol? Will the hon. Gentleman look into the matter?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I do not think that the last part of the question arises. If there should be an inquiry, and it should be considered desirable for Christie to appear before it, all necessary steps will be taken to secure that he is available for that purpose. If necessary, the date of execution can be postponed.
    Several Hon. Members—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. As we are to have a statement shortly on this subject I think it would be better to defer further discussion.
    Mr. Paton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the usual practice that those who put Questions down are allowed to ask a supplementary?
    Mr. Speaker: That is the practice when the answer has been given, but the answer in this case is to the effect that a further answer is to be made. I shall remember those hon. Members who have put down these Questions when the further statement is issued.
    Mr. Paton: Further to that, Mr. Speaker. I appear to be the only Member—perhaps there is one other—excluded from asking supplementaries. Surely that is a little unfair?
    Mr. Willey: As the Member to whom my hon. Friend has just referred, may I put it to you, Sir, that this is a matter about which there is a great deal of public concern? May I put this point
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    to the Under-Secretary, that in view of the public interest in this matter and the necessity for Members to be correctly informed about it, would it be possible for the transcript of the evidence in this case to be put in the Library?
    Mr. Speaker: I think that when we get the answer of the Home Secretary which we are promised as soon as possible, these questions will be relevant. As the Under-Secretary has indicated that the Home Secretary fears that further discussion of this matter might possibly prejudice an appeal, I think that the less we say about it now the better. I hope that the House will agree with me in that view.

    Vehicles (Speed Limit)
    Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what technical means are now in use by the Metropolitan Police for checking the speed of vehicles limited, respectively, to speeds of 30, 20, 16, 8, 5 and 3 miles per hour; and what particular instructions are given to the mobile police with regard to the enforcement or non-enforcement of the 20 miles per hour limit in particular.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: The normal methods adopted by the Metropolitan Police for enforcing speed limits are either for motor patrols to follow vehicles for a reasonable, and at an even, distance noting both maximum and minimum speedometer readings on speedometers whose accuracy is regularly checked, or for foot patrols to operate fixed speed controls over a measured distance, vehicles passing through a control being timed by means of stop watches, the accuracy of which is regularly checked. Occasionally, but more rarely, cases have been taken where motor patrol vehicles travelling at the legal limit have been overtaken by other vehicles. The 20 m.p.h. speed limit is enforced by mobile patrols in the same way as other speed limits.
    Mr. Erroll: Can my hon. Friend explain why the police are so unsuccessful in detecting heavy vehicles proceeding at speeds in excess of 20 miles an hour?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I have no reason to suppose that the police are unsuccessful in the way that my hon. Friend suggests.

    Roger Casement (Removal of Remains)
    Mr. Healyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that the new athletic ground in Belfast has been named after Roger Casement; and what action he proposes to take on the demand of a recent public meeting in Belfast, attended by 20,000 people, asking for the return to Ireland of the remains of this Irish patriot who was interned in Pentonville Prison.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: My right hon. and learned Friend has seen a newspaper report of the matters to which the hon. Member draws attention. He does not propose to take any action in the matter.
    Mr. Healy: Can the hon. Gentleman not at least be as generous as the United States Government, who handed over the bodies of the Rosenbergs to their relatives? If he has not already recognised the Irish Republic for which Casement died, does his present attitude not indicate that he has sympathy with the Home Office of that period, which proceeded to issue to the Press slanders on Casement after they had murdered him?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I cannot accept the hon. Member's statement, and I cannot imagine that any action of the kind suggested would help to improve relations between this country and Ireland. Indeed, by re-awakening the memory of old differences it might do the reverse.
    Lieut.-Colonel Hyde: In the interests of accuracy is my hon. Friend aware that at the public meeting in question there was no public demand voiced for the return of Roger Casement's remains, but that merely a pious hope was expressed by one of the speakers at that meeting? Is my hon. Friend further aware that every loyal citizen in Belfast and, indeed, throughout Northern Ireland regards Roger Casement not as a patriot but as a traitor who paid the just penalty for his high treason to this country?
    Mr. Healy: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this was one of the largest meetings in Belfast for a very considerable time, and that 75 per cent. of the Irish people regard him as a patriot and want Casement's remains brought back to the place of his birth?
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of the fact that the cause for which Sir Roger Casement gave his life has been so largely successful, and as this view is also shared by a large number of Irishmen in America, will not the Home Office do the generous thing and accede to this request?
    Sir H. Lucas - Tooth: Successive Governments have taken the view that the removal of the remains would not tend to improve relations between the two countries. That is still the view of this Government.

    Police Widows (Pension)
    Mr. J. Hallasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give an estimate of the annual cost of paying the same basic pension to the widows of all police officers as is authorised under the Police Regulations, 1949, for the widows of police officers who died on or after 6th April, 1949.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: The additional annual cost of paying to police widows whose husbands died before 6th April, 1949, flat-rate pensions as provided by the Police Pensions Regulations, 1949, together with discretionary increases of 32s. 6d. a week where the prescribed conditions are fulfilled, is estimated to be £203,500.
    Mr. Hall: While thanking my hon. Friend for the information, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the widow of a police officer who died before 4th July, 1948, receives appreciably less than the widow of an officer who died a day later? In view of the sum involved, which, by the nature of things, must be a diminishing amount, would my hon. Friend look at the matter again to see whether all the widows' pensions could be placed on the same basis?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: This is a difficult and technical matter. It was discussed fairly recently in the House, and I think that the House agreed with the Government's conclusions without a Division.
    Mr. Foot: Is the Home Office determined to show the same miserable pusillanimity in this respect as they are showing in the case of Roger Casement?

  COUNCIL OF EUROPE AFFAIRS (DEBATE)
  Mr. de Freitasasked the Prime Minister whether the statement made on 28th November, 1951, by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, speaking on behalf of Her Majesty's Government to the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe, to the effect that the Government would do everything possible to see that the affairs of the Council of Europe were debated in this House, still represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Lord Privy Seal. (Mr. Harry Crookshank): I have been asked to reply. Yes, Sir.
  Mr. de Freitas: Does the Leader of the House regard the fact that we have not had a debate over all these years as honouring the pledge given to parliamentarians from 13 foreign countries, all of which have learned, over the years, to expect the British Government to keep their word on an undertaking like this?
  Mr. Crookshank: I have often answered Questions from the hon. Member and his hon. Friends on this subject. I said that we have not been able to find any time ourselves for a debate, but there are opportunities at the disposal of the Opposition, should one be urgently required.
  Mr. de Freitas: May I remind the Leader of the House that it was the Home Secretary, speaking as a Member of Her Majesty's Government, who gave this undertaking?
  Mr. Crookshank: I know, and according to the terms of the hon. Member's Question, it was to the effect that the Government would do everything possible to have such a debate, but we have not found it possible yet. That is the answer.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember the Prime Minister, when in opposition, declaring in the most emphatic terms that it was for the Government to find time and not for the Opposition to supply time? It is no good saying what we said; I am saying what he said. The Prime Minister is now in power. How is it that the right hon. Gentleman is repudiating not
  586
  only the statement of the Home Secretary at Strasbourg but the statement of the former Leader of the Opposition, who claimed that the Government should find time for this specific purpose?
  Mr. Crookshank: Nobody is repudiating any statement of the Prime Minister; at least, I am not. I said yes, in reply to the question of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas). All I pointed out was that we have not been able to find time in the immediate past or, indeed at the moment. I think the right hon. Gentleman will be the first to admit that during the last few months it has not been very easy to find Government time.
  Mr. Attlee: Does that not seem to show that this subject has now become very much lower in the scale of priorities than it was when the Prime Minister was in opposition?
  Mr. Crookshank: I do not think that that is the case at all.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: In view of the fact that there is considerable interest in the Council of Europe on both sides of the House, cannot the Leader of the House reconsider this matter? There have been two short sessions of the Council of Europe, and the next one is to be in September. Could he not find time, even half a day?
  Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Is it the Government's policy to find time for Spithead but not Strasbourg?
  Mr. Shinwell: Could we be told what the Patronage Secretary said to the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) after her supplementary question?

  REMPLOY FACTORY, HUNSLET (DISABLED WORKERS)
  Dr. Broughtonasked the Minister of Labour how many persons who are registered as disabled persons and who have been accepted for work in the Remploy factory, Hunslet, Leeds, are awaiting engagement in the factory.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Harold Watkinson): Of the two Remploy factories at Hunslet, Leeds, one has four registered

  587
  disabled persons accepted and awaiting engagement; the other, restricted to tuberculous workers, has none. It is expected that one of the four disabled persons will shortly start work at the Bradford Remploy factory.
  Dr. Broughton: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that my attention has recently been drawn to the case of a constituent of mine who had been waiting for engagement for over 12 months? Will the hon. Gentleman say where the bottleneck is appearing? Is it that the factory cannot take any more disabled persons, or is there a difficulty in finding employment in industry for these people after they have been trained?
  Mr. Watkinson: No. I know of the hon. Member's great interest in this matter and also of the particular case he mentions. We can meet that case, and the man will be commencing work this week in the Remploy factory. In the other two factories, in the last year we have been able to get 10 extra men into the ordinary factory and 23 infectious tuberculosis cases into the special factory, so I think we are making progress.

  NATIONAL SERVICE

    Agricultural Workers (Call-up)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Labour whether he will extend the periods during which the call-up of agricultural workers will be suspended to assist in the gathering of this year's harvest.
    Mr. Watkinson: Yes, Sir. After consultation with his right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Agriculture my right hon. and learned Friend has arranged for the periods to be extended by three weeks. The periods will now run from 10th August to 14th November in England and Wales and from 17th August to 21st November in Scotland.
    Mr. Hurd: Will my hon. Friend convey our thanks to the Minister for his timely action?
    Mr. Watkinson: Yes, but this is not a precedent for other years.

    Ex-Soldier, Birmingham (Call-up)
    Mr. Shurmerasked the Minister of Labour why Terence Morris, Conway Road, Sparkbrook, Birmingham, was passed Grade 2 by a Ministry medical board and posted to a Royal Army Ordnance Corps department, near Alder-shot, on 28th May last, when he had, as a child, attended the school for blind in Birmingham.
    Mr. Watkinson: I very much regret that the National Service Medical Board at Birmingham was at fault in placing Mr. Morris in Grade 2, in view of the report of the ophthalmic specialist to whom they had referred him. My right hon. and learned Friend is taking special steps to see that this kind of mistake does not occur again, and wishes me to express his regret to Mr. Morris for what has happened.
    Mr. Shurmer: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this is not the first case so far as eyesight is concerned? I was able to prevent a boy going into the Army after he had his call-up papers and his warrant. This is not the first case of a boy being passed for the Army when he is unfit. What about the boy who died a few weeks ago? These boys are embarrassed by leaving their jobs and then being pulled up in the Army for not being able to do their work.
    Mr. Watkinson: I quite sympathise with the hon. Member's interest and anxiety about this case. I think that this anxiety is shared by the whole House. We certainly want to be quite sure that the medical arrangements for the call-up work efficiently and well. In this respect, I should say that my right hon. and learned Friend would have been here himself to deal with this matter had he not had to be in attendance on Her Majesty in Northern Ireland today. He attaches the greatest possible importance to the principle I have just enunciated. Though it may not be much satisfaction to Mr. Morris, as a result of this case we are drawing the attention of all medical boards to the need for making quite certain that nothing in a consultant's report is overlooked. As to the other case mentioned by the hon. Member, if the House wishes I can give the full details. The hon. Member's facts are not quite correct; this man was correctly called up.
    Mr. Wyatt: Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that it seems that these medical boards generally are not working quite as efficiently as in the past? This is only one of a number of recent cases. It is important that parents, in particular, should feel confident that when these boys go before medical boards they should be properly examined and put into the right grades.
    Mr. Watkinson: It is most important, but the hon. Member's implication is quite incorrect. Medical boards all over the country are working as well and as efficiently as always. There have been three recent cases in Birmingham which have received a great deal of publicity. The one to which I have just referred was a genuine mistake—the first mistake in the 12 years' operation of the chairman of that particular panel. With regard to the second one, mentioned by the hon. Member, his facts are not quite correct; the man was correctly called up. The case of the other man which he has mentioned should be the subject of another Question altogether; but there again inquiries are proceeding, and it is a quite exceptional case. I think that it would be most improper for this House to assume, incorrectly, that medical boards as a whole are not being as fair and as accurate as they always have been.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that in my constituency, which is in Birmingham, like that of my hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer), I have had at least four cases in the past six months, particulars of which I can give him, where men with a long history of ill-health have been called up and have subsequently had to be released from the Forces after great hardship to themselves and great trouble to the military authorities?
    Mr. Watkinson: I can assure the House that what has happened in the Birmingham area will be sifted to the bottom. Our medical adviser is in Birmingham now. The whole thing will be thoroughly examined and the necessary action taken.
    Mr. Robens: Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his answer smacks of complacency? The other day one of his right hon. Friends gave the figures of discharges within a few weeks of admittance to the Army, which were far
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    too high, and were the result of the very bad boards through which some of these boys have to pass.
    Mr. Watkinson: I have before me the figures of discharges which arose between our medical examination and the Armed Forces medical examination. For last year the figure was 7 per cent.* [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Perhaps I may be allowed to finish my sentence. If we look into these cases and make a detailed analysis, we find that a very high proportion are due to changing conditions between the time when the boy has his medical examination for the National Service call-up and the time when he has his medical examination in the Armed Forces. I do not think there is any great cause for alarm.
    As for the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we are complacent, I have told the House that immediately these cases came to our notice our medical adviser was sent to the Birmingham area, and I have told the House that we are sending special instructions to every medical panel in the country to take the greatest possible care about specialist reports, which was the point involved in this case. I certainly do not think that my right hon. and learned Friend can be accused of complacency.
    Mr. Shurmer: I am not prepared to accept the Parliamentary Secretary's statement about the other case mentioned. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, in another case, the boy was passed Al until he forced the authorities to send him to a specialist, when he was found to be Grade 4? He was graded Al despite the fact that he complained of having had 14 operations to his eyes. Unless an investigation is held into, and some care taken with, these medical boards, we shall be justified in the old joke that if a doctor feels you and you are warm, you are in.
    Mr. Watkinson: Now we have come back to the subject of the Question. I quite agree, and I have already said in my answer, that the trouble arose from the fact that although the boy was properly sent to a specialist and the specialist's report should have resulted in his being graded Grade 4, a mistake was made.
    * See col. 727, 3rd July, for correction to 0·7 per cent.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
Mr. Crookshank: Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 6TH JULY—Supply [19th allotted Day]:—Committee.
Debate on Report of the Committee on Cadet entry into Dartmouth Naval College (Cmd. 8845) until 7 o'clock.
Afterwards, a debate on Extended Benefit under Section 62 of the National Insurance Act, which will arise on an Opposition Motion.
TUESDAY, 7TH JULY—Report stage: Finance Bill.
Motion relating to: Double Taxation Relief (Belgium) Order.
WEDNESDAY, 8TH JULY—We hope to complete the Report stage of the Finance Bill at about dinner time; and then consider the Motions relating to:
Transfer of Functions (Ministry of Civil Aviation) Order.
The Hartlepool Corporation Act, 1925, Modification Order.
THURSDAY, 9TH JULY—Report and Third Reading: Valuation for Rating Bill.
Concluding stages: New Towns Bill.
Motions relating to:
Draft Ploughing Grants Scheme, and a similar Scheme for Scotland.
Representation of the People Regulations, and similar Regulations for Scotland and Northern Ireland.
FRIDAY, 10TH JULY—Committee and remaining stages: Marshall Aid Commemoration Bill.
Second Reading: Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Commission Bill.
Committee stage: Money resolution.
Report and Third Reading: Therapeutic Substances (Prevention of Misuse) Bill [Lords].
Mr. Ernest Davies: Will the Leader of the Opposition—[Laughter.] I apologise for anticipating future events; will the Leader of the House give an undertaking
592
that there will be a debate on the British Transport Commission's Report before we adjourn for the Summer Recess.
Mr. Crookshank: No, Sir. I cannot promise that there will be a debate on that subject, at least as far as I am concerned, before the Summer Recess, but perhaps a discussion can take place through the usual channels to see whether some arrangements can be made.
Mr. Davies: Does not the Leader of the House appreciate the desirability of having such a debate, in view of the fact that this Report becomes very quickly out of date? Further, in view of the report on the Harrow disaster, is it not very desirable to have a discussion on transport?
Mr. Crookshank: That is why I suggested that perhaps we could see whether some arrangement could be reached.
Mr. Noel-Baker: Since the Government have promised three Government days for such discussions, is it not reasonable to have one before the end of July?
Mr. Crookshank: It depends on whether there is time available and, as I have indicated, we are already very short of Government time, as is always the case at this time of the year. That is why I suggested—and perhaps the House will leave it at that—that we should see whether we can make some arrangement.
Mr. Anthony Greenwood: May I ask two questions? First, do the Government propose in the near future to make time available for discussing the Annual Report of the Colonial Office? Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman provide an opportunity in the near future for discussing the Motion on the legal definition of insanity which is on the Order Paper in the names of hon. Members on both sides of the House?
Mr. Crookshank: No, Sir. In reply to the second point I can hold out no hope of time and, as for the first point, I should have thought that that was a matter which could well arise on a Supply Day.
Mr. Osborne: Is there any chance of finding time to debate the coal situation and the Coal Board's Report, in view of

593
the fact that many people in the industry fear that there will be a fuel crisis this coining winter?
Mr. Crookshank: I said the other day that that should be considered in due course, but I can say no more at present.
Mr. Driberg: As the Government are so short of time before the end of July, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is correct that the Government propose to ask Parliament to adjourn rather earlier than usual?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not know what is "earlier than usual," and I am not in a position to give a date today.

TELEVISION DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Crookshank: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about television. I am afraid it is rather long and I hope I shall have the indulgence of hon. Members.
In early 1951 the late Government placed a ban on further major capital development on television by the B.B.C. The present Government decided when they took office in October, 1951, that the financial and economic condition of the country made it necessary to continue the ban. I am glad to inform the House that the Government are now in a position to agree that the B.B.C. should proceed at once with certain projects that will make television available to another six or seven million people. They can also now make a start with very high frequency sound services to help improve reception in areas where it is not now satisfactory.
New television stations will be set up at Aberdeen, Belfast, the Isle of Wight, Plymouth and Pontop Pike; the London station will be removed to the Crystal Palace; and stations will be erected to serve the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. With this programme of development B.B.C. television will be available to some 90 per cent. of the population within a period of about 18 months.
In their White Paper on Broadcasting issued in May, 1952, (Cmd. 8550) the Government stated, in paragraph 7, that they had
"come to the conclusion that in the expanding field of television provision should be made to permit some element of competition …."
594
Anxieties have been expressed since that date about the implications of a new system of competitive television. There is, however, a real danger that public opinion is being formed without any balanced or detailed knowledge of what sort of system might be set up.
The Government therefore propose to publish in the autumn a further White Paper defining the terms upon which competitive television might be permitted to operate. The Government are pledged to submit for the approval of Parliament the terms and conditions of any licences which might be issued. The White Paper will enable the House and the country to exercise a proper judgment in this essential matter before any final decision is taken.
In considering this whole question it is necessary to emphasise what seems often to be forgotten, that the B.B.C. will, in any case, remain intact, and its scope will in fact be extended. Its national and international standing will be unaffected, and its revenue and present basis of work will remain secure.
The House will be interested to know, without going into details which would be more appropriate to the White Paper, of some of the broad principles under which commercial television might operate:

(1) The number of stations under any one ownership or control would be limited.

(2) It is not likely that a large number of stations would be licensed in the first instance and they would be of low power and limited range.

(3) A Controlling Body would be set up to advise the Postmaster-General on the issue of licences and would see that programmes conform to the standards to be laid down. It would, for example, have power to call for a script in advance of presentation, to warn a station which offended against the letter or spirit of these standards, and to make recommendations to the Postmaster-General that the licence of any particular station should be suspended or withdrawn.

(4) The owner and operator of a station, whose licence would be at stake, and not the provider of programmes or the sponsor, would be the person responsible for what was broadcast.

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(5) Among other things which might be specified in the licence or by the Controlling Body would be the maximum number of hours the station should operate, any restrictions on the advertising of certain products, and the percentage of time and the place to be allotted to advertising matter in any programme.

Mr. H. Morrison: I should like to raise a number of points with the right hon. Gentleman. The first is whether the statement that has just been made is made in the light of the Television Advisory Committee's technical report. Has that been received and taken into account? Is the right hon. Gentleman sure that the period of 18 months for the B.B.C. to carry through the programme is right? We have understood from publications of the B.B.C. that the period is nearer to three years.
What does the phrase "element of competition" mean? Does it mean that this competition is to be provided by private commercial interests or is it to be through another and competitive public corporation? What is the kind of competition that is visualised? The statement says that the national and international standing of the B.B.C. would be unaffected and its revenue and present basis of working would remain secure. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman elaborate upon that? If somebody else is in the field, even another public corporation, is that not bound to affect the finances in some way, for instance, by competition in payments made to various people for various services to be rendered?
May I put this general consideration to the right hon. Gentleman? It is true that in the statement he has made are signs of certain modifications of the former declarations of the Government. Nevertheless, it is the case that there is widespread apprehension among very responsible people, leaders of thought of various kinds, including leaders of the Churches, and so on, people whose opinions are worth taking note of, and who are very apprehensive about any form of commercial television in our country. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman: is it wise, in view of the modifications the Government have made on this matter, which is not a party political question—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
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It is not. I notice certain cheers coming from the other side, and, I admit, from my side, but it is not a party political question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No. It is essentially a national moral question with which we are dealing.
In view of the responsible declarations of opinion by honoured citizens and people who take a high outlook on these matters, is it really worth while going on with this, giving rise to national division and a lot of controversy about a matter of this kind? Will not the Government be so good as to consider the matter, and particularly to consider whether it is worth while going on with this? If it does come to the House, as it is not a party political question, may we take it that on that occasion the Whips will not be on?
Mr. Crookshank: I hope I can remember all those questions. I shall do my best to answer the right hon. Gentleman. I made a note, but it was not very easy to get them all down. The Report of the Advisory Committee was taken into account, and I understand it will be available in a few days' time for the public to read. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether 18 months was the right time, saying that he had seen some figures to show it might be about three years. I am advised that 18 months is the present estimate which the B.B.C. themselves give, and I assume that they are the best people to judge on that question.
The right hon. Gentleman asked what form of competition was envisaged. I repeat what I quoted from the previous White Paper, that we had come to the conclusion that in this expanding field provision should be made to permit some element of competition, but as to exactly what form that may take I think we had better wait until the White Paper I have foreshadowed in the autumn. The right hon. Gentleman said that any competitive form, even if it were non-commercial, would affect the B.B.C. Whether it would or not, what I have said about the B.B.C. in this statement stands.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether, in view of the widespread apprehension, there had been any modifications in our previous views. I have repeated what our previous views were. I stand by that today. The whole point of what my colleagues and I had in mind in

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making this statement was to put before the country and before some of those who have been criticising before being in the position to know what kind of form the alternative television might take—[Interruption.] They could not have known, any more than anybody in this House, until I made this statement. I had in mind to make this statement while the matter is being discussed, as it is so much in public today.
That is why I have made this statement in this form, to assure everybody that the B.B.C. is going on just the same. That is why I have stated these general principles, though not the details, and not all of them by any manner of means; I have, however, stated the sort of lines along which the Government's mind is working in this sphere. We promise a White Paper in the autumn, and that will be the time to discuss the matter in this House.
Mr. Mayhew: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these odds and ends of safeguards to which he has referred will be totally inadequate to prevent debasement of programmes? Is he further aware that under the scheme outlined the British public still pays for programmes, and that British homes will be flooded by unwanted and unwelcome television advertisements. May I ask him, therefore, if his attention has been drawn to the latest Gallup Poll, which shows that, provided the B.B.C. is allowed to provide alternative programmes, less than a fifth of the British people want commercial television, and—
Sir H. Williams: On a point of order. Is it not desirable that the hon. Gentleman should declare his interest—his connection with the B.B.C.?
Mr. Speaker: I would point out to the House that there is no Question before it, and so we cannot have a debate. This matter must really be deferred till the autumn. I am prepared to admit a question or two for the purpose of elucidation, but not for arguing the merits of this or that proposal.
Mr. Driberg: Further to that point of order. The hon. Member for Croydon. East (Sir H. Williams) cast a rather damaging aspersion on my hon. Friend. He asked if he should not declare his interest. I have always understood that it is necessary to declare an interest in
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a debate when there is a direct commercial or financial interest. My hon. Friend certainly has no such interest. He is an accomplished broadcaster for the B.B.C. and as such receives, of course, fees, which would no doubt be very much larger on commercial television. I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, with great respect, that that is quite different from the sort of direct commercial or financial interest which a number of Members on the other side of the House have in this matter. I submit that the hon. Member opposite should not have made that suggestion.
Mr. Speaker: I deprecate all talk about commercial interests unless it is necessary, and I must say that I did not myself take seriously the remark of the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams).
Lady Tweedsmuir: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the position with regard to Aberdeen will cause very great pleasure in North-East Scotland, particularly as it reflects the sound economic position of the Government? With regard to competitive television, may I ask the Leader of the House whether, as Parliament has taken a decision regarding the principle of competitive television, the debate in the autumn will merely be on the technicalities involved?
Hon. Members: Answer.
Mr. Crookshank: I was wondering whether it was better to answer two questions at a time or to wait for more. May I answer the hon. Gentleman first? I do not know why he should call the kind of conditions under which licences should be issued "odds and ends of safeguards." I would ask him to study them very carefully. I may say that I have read his pamphlet, and therefore may I ask him to wait and read our White Paper?
As to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), I am much obliged to her for her reference to the establishment of the Aberdeen station and her confidence in the improved economic situation as a result of the present Government. As to the second part of her question, I have already reminded the House of the conclusion which the Government reached last year, and I and my colleagues think that it would be a good idea now to give everybody an oppor-

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tunity of seeing the kind of layout that may result from the adoption of the White Paper. My hon. Friend will no doubt have observed that on a previous occasion, and in my statement now, the Government are pledged to submit to the approval of Parliament the terms and conditions of any licences which might be issued.
Mr. Ness Edwards: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Television Advisory Committee's Report will be out on Tuesday, and whether he can indicate, when talking about the limitation of stations, whether or not only one frequency will be available in the London area? Do I understand that nothing in this statement infringes upon the pledge given by the Government in the last debate on broadcasting that no element of competition will be allowed until the B.B.C. has completed its national coverage?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not think that was in the form of a pledge. At any rate, it is a technical point which the right hon. Gentleman has asked me, and I think that he had better await the publication of the White Paper. I understand that the Report to which he refers is to be issued next week, but I cannot promise that it will be on Tuesday. I do not know whether there is any particular merit about Tuesday, but we hope to have it next week.
Sir R. Boothby: Without declaring any personal interest, I should like to ask my right hon. Friend whether, in considering the White Paper, Her Majesty's Government will give serious consideration to the point that, if all political discussion on sponsored television is banned, then the argument about breaking the monopoly of the B.B.C. falls to the ground. I think it is very important, if we are going on with this business, that we should have free discussion on sponsored television.
Mr. Crookshank: May I first congratulate my hon. Friend on the honour which has been conferred upon him, and ask him to await the publication of the White Paper?
Mr. Bowles: May I ask the Leader of the House whether this proposal for competitive television was in the Conservative Party's manifesto at the last General Election? Will he say "Yes" or "No"?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not think that has any relevance to what we are discussing now, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows probably just as well as I do, the answer to his question is "No."
Brigadier Medlicott: Is the Minister aware that there will be a great deal of disappointment in East Anglia that that historic and important part of the country has been passed over in the next phase of development in favour of more remote parts of these islands, and that, in particular, East Anglia has never had satisfactory sound reception? We did hope that, as some compensation, we should have some priority in regard to television.
Mr. Crookshank: I am sure we share my hon. Friend's grief—no one more than the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Hobson: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Cabinet have discussed all the implications of sound frequency allocation for the proposed sponsored television, particularly with regard to the difficulties for fire brigades, police, tug, shore and radar defence frequencies.
Mr. Crookshank: I must not be drawn into saying anything about what is discussed in the Cabinet.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. There is no Question before the House.
Mr. Shackleton: On a point of order. We have had a most important statement from the Leader of the House and there will be no opportunity apparently to discuss it further, yet the Leader of the House is hoping that public opinion will be formed on the basis of his brief statement and the answers to a few supplementary questions. May I respectfully ask whether a few more questions may be allowed to elucidate additional facts?
Mr. Hector Hughes: Further to that point of order. This is a matter in which I have taken a particular interest. May I ask one question on a matter of fact which has not been dealt with by the Minister?
Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot have a debate without a Question and there is no Question before the House. If the House desires to debate this matter further, it must so arrange, but I cannot postpone the Orders of the Day further.

PROVISION FOR OLD AGE (COMMITTEE)
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement on the Government's attitude to the problems which will be presented by the prospective increase in the number of old people.
As the House knows, the number of men and women over the present minimum pension ages of 65 and 60 is expected to rise from nearly 7 million in 1952 to nearly 10 million in 1977, a rise of more than 40 per cent. During the same period the number of the population between 15 and these pension ages is expected to decline. Against this background the Government have already announced their policy of encouraging an extension of the span of working life, and the House will recall that last year my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour appointed a National Advisory Committee on the Employment of Older Workers to advise and assist him in promoting the employment of older men and women. Their first Report is expected shortly.
The Government recognise that the long-term implications of the increase in the numbers of old people are of the highest social and economic importance and, at the same time, of great complexity. They have, therefore, decided to set up an independent committee to advise them with the following terms of reference:
"To review the economic and financial problems involved in providing for old age, having regard to the prospective increase in the number of the aged, and to make recommendations."
I am glad to say that Sir Thomas W. Phillips, for many years Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and subsequently to the Ministry of National Insurance, has agreed to serve as chairman of this committee. The names of the members will be announced as soon as possible.
Mr. Gaitskell: While welcoming the Government's intention, which is following the example set by their predecessors, may I ask the Chancellor to clarify the relationship between the Ministry of
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Labour Committee and the new committee which it is proposed to appoint? Will the new committee be concerned at all with industrial problems, or is that to be left entirely to the Ministry of Labour's Committee? Were the Trades Union Congress consulted before the appointment of the committee?
Mr. Butler: The answer to the part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question about the Trades Union Congress is, "Yes, Sir." The Trades Union Congress have agreed to be represented on the committee, which is an exceedingly good thing. The answer to that part of his question about the Minister of Labour's Committee is that it deals with the employment of older people and the new committee is to deal with general, rather long-term economic and financial questions. The Minister of Labour's Committee will report very soon, and it will then be seen that there is no overlapping between the two.
Mr. Gaitskell: Do I take it that the new committee will be able to cover the whole complex of economic and financial questions in so far as the first Report of the other Committee has not covered them?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. We do not wish to limit the scope of the committee, although it is more likely that the Guillebaud Committee will be covering health questions.
Mr. J. Paton: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House the most complete assurance that the new committee is not intended to repeat the history of the infamous May Committee?
Mr. Butler: It has nothing to do with the May Committee to begin with. As I said in my original reply, it will be concerned with matters of the highest social and economic importance, the problems of the old, and as this is a long-term problem which affects not only hon. Members but also the younger generation, I can give the hon. Gentleman an absolute assurance that the inquiry will be conducted in such a way as to serve the interests of the old.
Mr. Mellish: While the right hon. Gentleman's statement will be welcomed, does it not throw light on the fact that

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a very important medical aspect is involved, that the older the population gets the more chronic sick we get? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the very urgent needs of the chronic sick today and arrange that the Minister of Health shall get more money on his Vote than he has done in the past so that he will be better able to deal with the chronic sick?
Mr. Butler: We can rely on my right hon. Friend to make sure that he gets a good deal of money.
Mr. Maude: Will my right hon. Friend say whether it is proposed to have a medical expert on the committee? Also, is it intended that the committee, whose composition will be welcomed by the whole House, I am sure, should take evidence and sit on the scale and at the length of a Royal Commission, or whether something shorter and smaller is envisaged?
Mr. Butler: It is safe to say that we hope it will be shorter than a Royal Commission. I think it very likely that at least one member of the committee will have medical knowledge, but quite apart from that, there is a separate committee on medical matters under Mr. Guillebaud. However, I will pay attention to the point raised by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Donnelly: To return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. J. Paton), can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, under its terms of reference, it is possible for the committee to recommend any changes in the National Insurance system and payments?
Mr. Butler: There is, of course, the quinquennial review of the National Insurance Scheme which is being conducted as a separate exercise, but the committee will have to have regard to that exercise and, of course, there is no better expert on this subject than the chairman of the new committee.
Mr. J. Griffiths: In view of the reply of the Chancellor to the last supplementary question, to the effect that at least some aspects of the National Insurance Scheme may be considered by the committee, is the right hon. Gentleman aware
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that under the National Insurance Act a separate Advisory Committee was appointed? Is it intended that the new committee shall take away from the Advisory Committee some very important aspects which it would be that committee's duty to survey at the quinquennial review next year?
Mr. Butler: No, Sir. The quinquennial review will be a separate exercise and there is no intention of taking away any powers from the Advisory Committee. The new committee has a very important task—it is essentially one of looking ahead to future problems—and I feel certain that it will keep in touch with other advisory committees and persons with knowledge of this subject.
Sir G. Lloyd: Will my right hon. Friend repudiate the suggestion from the other side of the House that it would be infamous to make reasonable economies and reasonable suggestions so that we got better value for the large sums of money which we spend?
Mr. Butler: I regard as infamous anything which wastes public money.
Mr. Keenan: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us something more about the composition of the committee which he is setting up? Will the committee take into consideration the factors governing retirement ages in different industries? Is the right hon. Gentleman proposing to appoint to the committee persons competent to say at what age persons should retire in heavy industry, in particular?
Mr. Butler: We are indebted to the hon. Gentleman for drawing our attention to the complexities of the industrial field. That matter will be borne in mind by the members of the committee.
Mr. Nicholson: Will the committee have any representatives of the Treasury or the Central Economic Planning Staff?
Mr. Butler: I think that we at the Treasury and those who are experts in economics have quite enough influence already.
Mr. S. Silverman: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the effect of the statement which he has made, and of the answers which he has given to

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supplementary questions, is to give a picture of a large number of different committees each dealing with a separate aspect of what is really a single question? Would it not be better to have a committee with terms of reference wide enough to include all these separate matters and to make one comprehensive report?
Mr. Butler: The hon. Gentleman's point is really covered by the fact that the terms of reference are very wide. They cover the economic and financial problems involved. What would be wrong would be, for example, to stop the quinquennial review of the National Insurance Fund or any separate exercises. I do not think that there will be overlapping If there is, I will make a further report to the House.

NEW MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members desiring to take their seats, please come to the Table.
Mr. I. O. Thomas: On a point of order—
Mr. Speaker: An hon. Member taking his seat cannot be interrupted by a point of order. It is a matter of Privilege.

NEW MEMBER
  NEW MEMBER SWORN
  Lieut.-Colonel Airey Middleton Sheffield Neave, D.S.O., O.B.E., M.C., for Abingdon.
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [18TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  SUPPLY

    CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1953–54
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a further sum, not exceeding £40, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the following services connected with Agriculture and Food Production in the United Kingdom, for the year ending on 31st March, 1954, namely:

    Civil Estimates, 1953–54

    £

    Class VIII, Vote 1, Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries

    10

    Class VIII, Vote 2, Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (Food Production Services)

    10

    Class VIII, Vote 11, Department of Agriculture, Scotland

    10

    Class VIII, Vote 12, Department of Agriculture (Food Production Services)

    10

    Total

    £40

    —[Mr. Boyd-Carpenter.]

  AGRICULTURE AND FOOD PRODUCTION
  4.10 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Williams: I am not sure that I ought not to commence by pleading for the indulgence of the Committee, because it seems so long since I harangued the Committee that I feel nervous, despite my lengthy service to the House. This is the second opportunity which hon. Members have had of discussing agriculture and food production generally during this year. The first was on 2nd February, when there was a comprehensive debate, but I cannot say that either hon. Members or the farming community learned very much of the Government's long-term intentions. On the other hand, if I read the debate aright, the speeches of the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Agriculture created much more confusion and less confidence in the minds of the farming community.
  In what I should call a very contradictory speech on the part of the Joint Under-Secretary of State, he said that there was no intention of interfering with

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  the main features of the 1947 Act. He proceeded to extol the virtues of free competition, and literally attacked fixed prices and the present forms of stability. He said:
  "The efficient farmer should be glad no longer to be insulated against the free air of free competition."
  He did not say what form of competition, or whether it was the competition of home producers or competition from abroad. He continued:
  "Fixed prices have hampering effects upon enterprise. The stability experienced over the past seven to 12 years arose as a result of the war…. But it is not the kind of stability by which men seek opportunities of developing skill and enterprise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1953; Vol. 510, c. 1521.]
  I could understand those sentiments coming from the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers), but, coming from a responsible Minister, they seemed to me to be not only contradictory but highly inflammatory, for, in my village innocence, I thought that fixed prices from 12 months to four years ahead were the very basis on which confidence was given to the farming community, so that they could plan ahead and aim at increased production. We did what we did so that they could plan ahead with confidence both in regard to breeding and cultivation, devoting their time to actual farming instead of wasting their time watching market fluctuations. But the Joint Under-Secretary of State told us on 2nd February that fixed prices were having a hampering effect on enterprise, and that, in fact, the kind of stability they had during the previous several years was not the kind of stability that enterprising farmers wanted.
  I should like to ask the Minister of Agriculture, or the Joint Under-Secretary if he is to speak, whether the National Farmers' Union subscribe to that point of view. Certainly the county delegate of the National Farmers' Union branch in West Sussex does not, for he was reported in the June issue of the "Southern Farmer" as saying:
  "The Government are sliding out of their responsibilities to the farmers. They have no intention of keeping their promises to the industry."
  That is a very serious statement coming from a county delegate, but can anyone blame him, after the statement of the
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  Joint Under-Secretary on 2nd February? After all, the county delegate returns to the county branch, and the county branch reports to the individual farmer, and therefore they have taken the hon. Gentleman at his face value in his peroration, disregarding his assurance that there should be no going back on the main features of the 1947 Act. It could have a very disastrous effect upon food production in this country.
  I sympathise with the hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Gough), who had to face such criticism when he attended a National Farmers' Union county meeting. Incidentally, the hon. Member for Horsham, having paid me a very well-deserved compliment, referred to the 1947 expansion programme, and said:
  "The expansion programme was based exactly on the principles that we—the Conservative Party—wanted to introduce and promised to the industry since 1917."
  That is a very tall statement indeed, but in any case Conservative Governments were in office between the wars for 17 years five months and four days, and they did nothing about it. They left it for a Labour Government, which believed in this kind of policy, to apply that policy when they got the power.
  Mr. Frederick Gough: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene, as he has mentioned my name? Perhaps, if he goes a little further in his reading, he will see that I also drew attention at a meeting of farmers to the gross mishandling of agriculture by the Labour Government between 1929 and 1931, and at the end, secured a complete vote of confidence in the Conservative Government.
  Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman is not reported as having made that statement in this journal to which I have referred, so that I cannot quote him extensively. What I remember he did say was that the very root and branch of the Conservative Party depended upon agriculturists and horticulturists, and that it would be heaven help the Conservative Party if they lost the rural vote.
  Mr. Gough: If the right hon. Gentleman will extend his reading to slightly more respectable Sussex papers, he will get a rather wider knowledge of what I did say.
  Mr. Williams: I should think that the "Southern Farmer" is a responsible and respectable paper, but I have no authority to speak either for or against that organ of opinion. It is clear, however, that the hon. Member was not very happy when he attended that N.F.U. meeting, and the cause of his unhappiness clearly was the fear expressed by the county delegate that the Government were going to let them down. I concede that the Joint Under-Secretary had declared that there was no intention of departing from the main features of the 1947 Act, but he also made the statements to which I have referred, and he went on:
  "We believe that the policy on which we are embarking will lead to increased efficiency and to the benefit of agriculture."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1953; Vol. 510, c. 1521–22.]
  That is a very interesting statement, and I hope we are going to hear much more about the new policy this afternoon. We want to know, for instance, whether, if fixed prices are hampering, they are to be abolished, and, if the present forms of stability are stifling enterprise, they are to be done away with. We are entitled to have a categorical statement from the Minister. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman or the Joint Under-Secretary going out into the counties and telling the farmers that there is no intention of interfering with the basis of the 1947 Act with its controls and guarantees, and then coming here and denouncing the present forms of stability. Hon. Members and the farming community generally are entitled to know whether the Joint Under-Secretary was really speaking for the Government.
  Then, we are also entitled to know what is meant by—
  "the policy on which we are embarking."
  So far, all we know about that policy is the suggestion of more de-control and the fresh air of competition, as the Joint Under-Secretary put it. It is all very reminiscent of many speeches to which I used to listen in the '20s and '30s from Conservative back benchers, when agriculture was very seriously depressed and production was at its lowest level. It is because I fear the words contained in the peroration to that 2nd February speech that I think the statement of the hon. Gentleman was positively dangerous, and I hope the Minister will clarify the position today.
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  We are all anxious to see farmers aiming at maximum production, but I have been in the House long enough to know that it is a remote possibility unless there is a fairly large measure of confidence that enterprise, investment and long-term planning are not to be frustrated by uncertain markets and prices. The Minister did not help matters by some of his statements on 2nd February. Perhaps on that occasion he had too much to say and too little time in which to say it. I hope he has all the time he wants this afternoon and that he will use that time to clear the air. On that occasion he said:
  "I now come to what, I think, is in all our minds at this time, more perhaps than any other particular question, and that is the step that the Government are taking to try to introduce greater freedom into agricultural economy. I say at once that I make no apology for this move towards greater freedom. We believe fundamentally that by getting rid of some of the present rigidities we shall enable the healthy wind of enterprise, initiative and freedom to sweep away the cobwebs of 12 years of control. Far from being anxious about this, we believe that in this way we can hope for greater agricultural production, which is as important today as it has ever been in our history."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1953; Vol. 510, c. 1597.]
  That statement is clear enough on general principles, and I hope the Minister will be as clear today in telling us exactly what he meant by it.
  In a subsequent statement the right hon. Gentleman repeated that there was no intention of interfering with the main lines of the 1947 Act. Will the Minister, therefore, be good enough to tell us exactly what he meant by the statement I have quoted? Phrases like "sweeping away the cobwebs," "getting rid of rigidities," "the healthy wind of enterprise" are all very nice and they are all good old Tory sentiments, but we want to know exactly what the Minister means. We must know because he says that "it," whatever it is, will lead to greater agricultural production which, of course, we all want to see, but to think in terms of one cobweb removed meaning more grain or one rigidity dispensed with meaning more meat, all sounds too simple for me.
  The right hon. Gentleman quoted my speech in the House in January, 1947. I stand by every word I uttered on that occasion. We all knew that circumstances would be bound to change at some time. Therefore, Sections 3 and 4 of the 1947 Act prepared the way for any necessary

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  variations in fulfilling Part I of the 1947 Act; whether a deficiency payment, or an agricultural commission, or a marketing scheme is no matter. We expect from time to time that changes will take place, and we shall not quibble about them so long as they come after proper consultation with, the producers' organisations. What we are concerned with is this either synthetic or real enthusiasm for free enterprise and the hostility against fixed prices or present forms of stability.
  Therefore, this debate is timely if for no other purpose than to allow the right hon. Gentleman to make it transparently clear whether or not the statements made by the Joint Under-Secretary about not interfering with the 1947 Act, or the attack on fixed prices and so forth, really represent the point of view of the Government. In the absence of such clarification, both we on these benches and producers will be justified in suspecting the motives of the Government, which would be tragic from the point of view of food production.
  In winding up his speech on 2nd February, the Minister deprecated a Division. He said that for 12 years we had controlled the industry as a combined operation. At least I think I can claim that I steered clear of politics during my responsible years far more than some hon. Members sitting opposite. They never lost an opportunity of condemning the then Labour Government for not buying cereals that did not exist or for not spending dollars we did not possess. They helped materially to reduce the tillage acreage in this country which we are now struggling to restore. In their publication "The Right Road for Britain" they were not entirely non-politcial when they said:
  "The Socialists have left vague the guarantees they are prepared to give the British farmer. Their promises may in time prove worthless."
  I warn the right hon. Gentleman, who unfortunately is not a member of the Cabinet, that unless he keeps a sharp eye on this new-found enthusiasm for free enterprise, free competition and the so-called wind of competition, he may find himself forced into a new Corn Production Repeal Act before he realises what is happening. In any such case the damage to our economy could be disastrous.
  On the general question of food production, I want to ask one or two ques-
  612
  tions. There is provided annually by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland a report on the major features of agriculture. I want to know whether the Ministry of Agriculture, responsible for England and Wales, may not feel disposed to produce a similar annual document for the benefit of hon. and right hon. Members. I have seen the Scottish production and it is a useful document which might well be copied by the Ministry of Agriculture.
  We know that the Government have restored the fertiliser, calf-rearing and ploughing payments and we are anxious to see all these three succeed. They were expedients that we ourselves tried, not altogether unsuccessfully, but we shall be entitled, when the ploughing grants come up for ratification, critically to examine the actual results. We want to know not only how many acres of grass beyond a certain area have been ploughed but the net improvement in the total tillage acreage.
  Those three actions seem to be both the beginning and the end of the constructive efforts of the Government. It is true that last year they produced a White Paper, Cd. 8556, in which they outlined a programme by which they hoped to increase production by 60 per cent. over pre-war by 1956. I am not satisfied that we could not do much more than that if we were to use all the legislative power now in our hands.
  That White Paper was published 12 months ago and it would be interesting to learn what has happened during the past 12 months. When we were discussing it, I said that almost everything depended upon sub-paragraphs (a) and (c) of paragraph 12, namely, grass improvement and utilisation and, of course, an increase in tillage acreage. The right hon. Gentleman said last June that it would be far easier from then on to increase tillage than it was, say, back in 1944. Can he tell us what the increase is over last year, not just the area ploughed but the total net increase in tillage acreage?
  I remember that paragraph 9 of the White Paper said:
  "The Government will not only encourage but, where necessary, will require that full productive use is made of the land."
  Have any steps been taken to fulfil that promise? Apart from encouragement by members of the Agricultural Advisory

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  Service and county executive committees, have any specific steps been taken to fulfil the promise made by the Minister that he would require all land to be fully used? The right hon. Gentleman has ample powers if he cares to use them. We were very generous in providing powers for him when he came into office. He can use Section 98 of the 1947 Act against the farmer who fails with his tillage area. He can use Section 84 to ensure that full productive use is made of land. I should like to ask him whether either of those powers has been used, and if not, why not?
  Then I should like to ask how many areas or cases, if any, have been referred to the Land Commission and with what result. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, he has power to invite the Land Commission to examine any area which it is thought is not rendering its contribution. If their report recommends compulsory purchase, the right hon. Gentleman has the power to proceed. There used to be statement after statement from the Conservative benches when we were in office that there appeared to be no sense of urgency in the Government nor was there any sense of urgency in the counties. I am certain that that extra one million acres of tillage for coarse grains will not be available unless there is a greater sense of urgency than appears to be the case now and, of course, unless and until the right hon. Gentleman uses all the powers at his disposal.
  The 1947 Act laid the foundations for both stability and confidence. The Hill Farming Act and the Livestock Rearing Act are two very useful supplementary Measures. I know from figures given by the right hon. Gentleman a week ago that there are about 6,000 schemes either in operation or contemplated which have been or might be approved, in all touching some five million acres. That should be a very great help, once the schemes are completed, in providing the meat we want. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what has happened to the schemes during the past 12 months. Has the Government's dear money policy had any effect on the promotion of new schemes?
  Although the number of improvement schemes is encouraging, there must still be large areas where nothing is being done. Those areas were mentioned
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  during a debate in another place yesterday. There was another statement made by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary in another place that we must contemplate over the next 60 years the loss of about two million acres of good agricultural land. If that is true, and I fear that it may be, it is clearly our bounden duty to make use of any other acres that may be available at least to tone down the loss of this good agricultural land.
  Here is an opportunity to demonstrate what useful improvements can be made. The Land Commission could be invited to inspect large areas not yet covered by voluntary schemes covering 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 or even 5,000 acres which could be compulsorily acquired and radically improved under State direction. After all, Parliament was not ungenerous when it offered to hill farmers 50 per cent. grants for all the improvements they made. If large areas of hill land are still not being fully used, I submit that it is now time that Section 84 of the 1947 Act should be used to acquire some areas of land.
  The Minister has the power and the country needs the food. We in this Committee are entitled to expect some action. I should like to ask the Minister whether ways and means have been found of speeding up procedure for placing dilatory farmers under supervision. We know how difficult it is has been for county agricultural executive committees where they have had a person under supervision who has made some slight improvement but who, the moment they turn their back, has quickly slipped back to where he was before. I know that it is not easy to find ways and means of improving this procedure but it ought to be done if possible. Again, I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether means have been found to prevent a landlord from giving notice to a good tenant farmer year after year, forcing him to face the agricultural tribunal at no small expense to himself and no little worry.
  These weak spots in the Act of 1947 could emerge only after experience. This is no criticism either of the Minister, the Government or of anybody else, but if as a result of this experience we find that there are weak links we ought to try to repair them as soon as possible.
  This may be the last opportunity for a discussion on food production during

  615
  this Session. I should like to emphasise that despite the Chancellor's apparent complacency and the heavy stocks of wheat that are building up in America, we still need the maximum amount of food from our own soil if our economy is not to remain in danger. This can be expected only if there is a large measure of confidence in the countryside. We ask the Minister to make it transparently clear that there will be no slipping away from the main features of the 1947 Act. They can talk about anti-fixed prices, cobwebs or rigidities in the good old Tory style for as long as they like so long as they will assure the Committee and the country that the guarantees and controls that matter so much are to remain to encourage farmers to carry on with the job.
  That variations to carry out guarantees will have to be made we already understand, and we do not complain so long as they are put into effect after consultation and the farmers are not merely told, as was the case with eggs. We shall be content and ready to examine them all as and when they come before us. We ask the right hon. Gentleman to use with proper discretion the powers we provided for him. A fair deal for farmers and consumers should be his watchword. Even so the right hon. Gentleman must never lose sight of the fact that the old world has literally slipped away. Cheap food imports have gone for all time. The world population continues to increase and this nation is the most vulnerable on earth from that point of view.
  The Conservative Party boasted when they were out of office about what they would do when they got into office. I am asking for something new from the Conservative Party. At least we are entitled to expect that they will fulfil one of their promises, or otherwise be prepared to face the music when the day arrives.
  4.39 p.m.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Sir Thomas Dugdale): I think that first the Committee would like me to express our pleasure at seeing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) in his place on the Opposition Front Bench. As we expected, we have listened to a most instructive speech on
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  the subject—with Which the right hon. Gentleman is well acquainted—of agriculture which he controlled in the interest of the nation for many years until the present Government came into office. This is a most opportune moment for us to have a debate on agriculture. It not only gives the right hon. Gentleman opposite an opportunity to make his comments to the Committee, but it also gives me an opportunity to make abundantly clear some of those problems referred to by the right hon. Gentleman for the benefit of the farming community as a whole.
  I am extremely glad that the right hon. Gentleman saw fit to re-affirm once again the speech he made on 27th January, 1947, because it is very germane to the whole of this problem. I think we want to get it absolutely clear that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee are in agreement concerning the principles underlying the operation of the 1947 Act. Therefore, to put it on record, I referred to it, as the right hon. Gentleman said, in the debate on 2nd February this year, although the right hon. Gentleman was unable to be in his place at that time.
  I wish to refer to the passage in the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman on 27th January, 1947, which I think is so important, and in which he said:
  "The actual provision for any commodity may be a guaranteed fixed price, a deficiency payment related to the standard price, such as we had in regard to wheat in pre-war days, an acreage payment, such we have for both wheat and potatoes today, or it may be a subsidy, or a price calculated according to a formula relating prices to feedingstuffs."
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
  "Whichever method is applied it will be after careful consideration in the light of all the circumstances."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th January, 1947; Vol. 432, c. 630–1.]
  I am in entire agreement with the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman at that time, and I hope, in the course of my remarks today, to convince the Committee that we are not at variance with that statement and with the other statement in the February debate to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, when I said that our economy was moving into ways of greater freedom for producers. But before turning to that side of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, I will discuss the state in which the industry

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  finds itself at the present moment and the progress we are making in our production drive.
  We have not at present the results of the 4th June census. As the Committee know, it takes a certain time before all the results are analysed, but no doubt as soon as we have them we shall all be studying them very closely. It will then be possible to assess some of the factors in the situation more carefully. I have asked for special efforts to be made on this occasion to get out the summary of these results as soon as it is feasible. The right hon. Gentleman will know perfectly well that it is not entirely in the hands of the Department itself. All these returns have to come in from all over the country, and then they have to be collected together and analysed before we can see the significance of them. But we are trying to do it as speedily as possible.
  I think we have enough evidence to show what is happening to production, and I will devote the first part of my speech to that. I then propose to say something about the discussions which we are having with the leaders of the farmers on the problems arising out of the removal or the prospect of the removal of war-time controls. That is really what the right hon. Gentleman asked about. I will deal, in passing, with other questions, leaving some of the questions asked by the right hon. Gentleman to be dealt with by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary when he winds up the debate.
  The first and main thing to be said about production is that it has been increasing, is increasing and is likely to continue to increase. That is something which hon. Members on all sides of the Committee can welcome.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: It depends on the rate.
  Sir T. Dugdale: The rate is very good, as I shall show.
  The basic conditions which called for programmes for expansion of production at home both under the previous Government and under the present Government are the result of long-term factors in the general economic situation. That does not mean that any and every increase in production, whatever the cost, is either
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  worth while or necessary. I think the Committee should bear that in mind. We all know that in agriculture, as in other industries, increases in productivity and production must go together if our standards of living are to be maintained and, we hope, increased.
  In this respect, agriculture continues to serve the country well, and our object—to achieve by 1956 at least a level of output of 60 per cent. above pre-war—remains firm. I underline the words "at least." That is the figure we gave in the White Paper a year ago. The evidence of the course of production, in particular the agricultural returns, enables us to compare the rate of increase in production with what is necessary to achieve at least the desired level by 1956.
  The figures for March, 1953—and here I must point out to the Committee that they refer only to England and Wales, because the Scottish figures have not yet been collected together—which are the latest available, were collected this year for the first time from a one-third sample of farms instead of from every farmer. This change was made in agreement with my Statistical Advisory Committee, which includes representatives of farmers, and there is general agreement that the reform will reduce the number of returns that each farmer has to make without substantially affecting the usefulness of the figures collected.
  I now come to particular commodities. Let us turn, first of all, to livestock increases and let us take the figures for meat. As compared with a year ago, the number of calves in England and Wales alone in March last was up by 146,000. We can relate this to the 1952 White Paper. This must be compared with the figure given by way of example in the White Paper for the increase in the number of calves being reared.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to paragraph 12 of the White Paper, which gave illustrations of the way in which the 60 per cent. increase in food production might reasonably be achieved with the resources in prospect. There was, first, to be an increase in the production and utilisation of grass by some 15 per cent., and an increase in the numbers of grass-eating animals, including an increase to be obtained over the four years of up to 400,000 per annum in the number of

  619
  calves being reared in the United Kingdom. I admit we have still a considerable way to go, but the Committee will see from the figures I have given that in the first year we have got about half way. I hope we shall achieve the other half well before the end of the four years because, as the Committee know, it takes a considerable time for a calf to be converted into beef for the dinner table.
  I wish now to deal with sheep. The March figures show an increase in England and Wales alone of well over 300,000 ewes, and it seems clear from the figures that the potential breeding flock is continuing its steady increase. I think all who have been in country districts during the spring and early summer gained the impression at lambing time this year that the results of the lambing season were well above normal. Evidence of lamb marketing since then has strengthened that impression. It may be reasonably assumed and expected that the numbers of sheep may be increasing rather more rapidly, and we shall be very pleased if that is so.
  I will now deal with pigs. Here again the story is good. The figures also confirm the general impression that there has been a great increase in the number of pigs during the last 12 months. There was in fact an increase of more than 200,000 pigs and of these 54,000 were sows kept for breeding. There was an increase within this number in the number of gilts-in-pig of more than 25 per cent. This shows a very strong position in the pig industry.
  The Committee will be glad to have noted the agreement reached with the farmers' leaders following the last Annual Review that the grading standards for pigs should be improved. In the agreement with the farmers' leaders we have given warning to the industry that in a year's time the standards required will be comparable with those before the war. The announcement of this agreement was made on 24th June this year, and is a matter of great importance to all pig producers. I advise them most seriously to study it.
  In the White Paper following the 1952 Review—the document which the right hon. Member and I have already referred to—we forecast that a programme of the
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  kind we illustrated might lead to an increase by the fourth year in meat supplies of some 250,000 tons, mainly pig meat, with further increases, mainly beef and mutton, to follow. Already, in the second year of the programme, we have achieved breeding herds of pigs sufficient to carry the production of pigmeat to the level envisaged in the 1952 White Paper.
  Before leaving the subject of pigs, which interests the Committee because the increase has been so marked, I must again emphasise how important it is for the pig producer now to do all he can to conform to the higher standards of grading and also to take advantage of the derationing of feedingstuffs and every other opportunity in order to reduce costs of production wherever he can.
  I will sum up in respect of total meat supplies. The Minister of Food made a statement the other day about the meat supplies of the country. Supplies this year are expected to reach a total of nearly 1,900,000 tons. The pre-war consumption levels, he said, would indicate the need for 2,300,000 tons in 1954 but, as the Minister also said, this may not be a conclusive guide to what will in fact be demanded by the public in that year. It is not therefore, impossible that the pre-requisites for the end of meat rationing may be satisfied during 1954. But, if they are—I wish to emphasise this—this, in my judgment, will not affect the general shape of the production objectives set before British agriculture. It is important that the Committee should realise that. As we said in 1952, we shall still want a large increase in the production and utilisation of grass and an increase in the number of grass-eating animals of at least the order indicated in the White Paper.
  Leaving the main items of meat production, I wish to say a word in regard to poultry. Here again we see a large increase. The number of poultry over six months and under six months old shows a substantial increase in the March returns. I accept at once, and am not making a debating point here, that those figures would not have been influenced one way or the other by the actual course of events following the decontrol of eggs at the end of March. But, naturally, we have been watching events very carefully

  621
  and I think that as the story unfolds it is becoming more and more clear that the fears which some people—very understandably—felt have not in fact been fulfilled.
  The National Egg Marketing Organisation on which farmers and traders with the agricultural Departments and the Ministry of Food are associated, has been doing a very good job with the co-operation of all concerned. These arrangements are, of course, interim arrangements and we are ready to consider any further suggestions of permanent arrangements which producers wish to put forward. Meanwhile, the arrangements we have made have been working extremely satisfactorily on the whole, to the benefit of producers and housewives throughout the land.
  I now wish to say a word about the progress we are making in regard to milk. For milk production the guidance which the Government gave in 1952, and have confirmed this year, is that we should maintain the number of dairy cows, with an expectation of a continuing increase in yield per cow. The total production of milk seems still to be increasing and we shall continue to watch the returns very carefully. In connection with milk production, I think the Committee would like to know the latest position in regard to the eradication of tuberculosis from our cattle. I am very glad to report that satisfactory progress is being made. In Great Britain 41 per cent. of the cattle are now in attested herds, as compared with 34 per cent. a year ago. Within that figure, of course, the proportion of dairy cattle in attested herds is very much higher.
  Large areas of Wales and Scotland have already been completely freed from bovine tuberculosis, and these areas are being extended, and a new area is being started in the North-West of England. There is no doubt that the progress of the attested herds scheme and the success in controlling certain other animal diseases, notably contagious abortion, have greatly contributed to the increase in milk yields which has taken place in recent years. I think we can say that from the production angle the picture is good in relation to the herds of our country.
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  I now turn from animals to tillage. Of course, the March returns are particularly deficient so far as giving the Committee very accurate figures in regard to tillage is concerned. For real information about the increase in tillage we must, as I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree, await the 4th June returns. I will, however, try to give such information to the Committee as I can. The March figures for England and Wales included farmers' forecasts of cropping, though I think hon. Gentlemen opposite will agree that very often these forecasts are lower than what is actually achieved.
  The forecast for England and Wales shown in the returns include an increase of more than 200,000 acres of wheat this year, but it is estimated that the total increase in the tillage area in the U.K. may be appreciably less than this figure, mainly because of a reduction in the barley area, and incidentally, and this must not be forgotten—I am trying to put these figures absolutely fairly—because of the losses due to the East Coast floods.
  Mr. T. Williams: What is the barley figure?
  Sir T. Dugdale: I have not got it but I will try to get it for the right hon. Gentleman, although it is difficult; it is guesswork at the moment.
  There is no doubt that owing to the climatic conditions, which were suitable for wheat, many people went in for wheat at the back end of last year and the spring of this year who before have grown barley. There is this big step up in the wheat acreage of 200,000 acres but I think there will definitely be a reduction in barley. We cannot really ascertain that until we get the 4th June returns.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Has the Minister any idea where the coarse grains will be coming from for the pigs and calves in view of this reduction in barley?
  Sir T. Dugdale: The coarse grains will be there. If we get a big increase in wheat we shall be able to afford to buy an equivalent increased quantity of coarse grain from overseas. So long as we get the cereals, they are in the national larder, whether they be for human or animal consumption.
  Mr. Paget: From where does the Minister expect to get these coarse grains this year?
  Sir T. Dugdale: I do not think I will go into the argument as to where they might come from, but I think they will be there. The actual achievement may, of course, as in previous years, be considerably better than the forecasts.
  At the same time—this is an interesting point for the Committee—evidence is accumulating that increases in yields are being obtained at a greater rate than we thought possible even in 1952. With the new types and strains of cereals there is so quick an increase in yield that there is virtually revolution in that field and it is difficult to assess exactly what the yield will be at the end of this harvest. The whole question of the balance between tillage and grass and the possibilities of increasing yields of grass and crops is of course a matter for further careful study in the light of the June returns when they are available. I am satisfied, however, that there is no reason to vary the broad objective put before the industry in 1952, namely, an increase by way of improvement in grassland and an extension of the tillage area amounting to at least 60 per cent. above pre-war.
  Turning from the production side to the means of production, I should like to say a few words about manpower. We cannot get or continue to get increased production without an adequate labour force. In trying to estimate the industry's needs, we must take account both of the increase in mechanisation and in output per man and of improvement in farm management, all of which are methods of economising on manpower. Although the number of regular workers continues to fall, the Committee should recognise that there are still 24,000, or more than 4 per cent., more than there were before 1939. The number of casual workers is rising, and this helps to cope with the problem of seasonal work.
  The loss through the call-up is often exaggerated. The Committee should realise that it is now only about 6,000 men per year, and, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour has stated in an announcement today, the period of suspension of call-up during the harvest this year has been extended by
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  three weeks and will now run for 14 weeks, which is from 10th August to 14th November in England and Wales and a week later in Scotland. This is a useful concession, but the decisive long-term factor will be the ability of the industry to attract the regular men and women it needs, and, what is more important, to keep them there.
  It is curious but it is a fact that there are more young people coming on to the farms today than perhaps ever before. We hope that the industry's decision to launch an apprenticeship scheme in the autumn will stimulate the flow. I hope that it may do good, it cannot do harm; indeed I am hoping that it will do a great deal of good. If we are to keep these young people in the industry, however, we must continue to raise the standards of housing in rural England. For this reason the Government's recent decision, which I only refer to this afternoon, to allow for a further £1½ million of capital investment for the extension of rural electricity and a further £½ million for rural water supply schemes will, I am certain, be welcomed in all parts of the Committee. I think that as time goes on that will make a big contribution towards dealing with our problem.
  Another, shall I say, hindrance to production was referred to at Question time today, namely, pests. Therefore, another way of increasing production is to lessen the waste caused by pests; I refer particularly to rabbits, pigeons and crows—the carrion crow being the worst of all. It is my intention to intensify the campaign against these pests, and I am glad to be able to inform the Committee that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has agreed to two measures, small in themselves but important, which I think will be of considerable help.
  Farmers and landowners are responsible by law for getting rid of pests on their own land. That cannot be said too often. Unless we rub it in they are inclined to think that somebody else is responsible for getting rid of their pests. I repeat that farmers and landowners are responsible by law for getting rid of pests on their own land. But there is a growing recognition of the benefits to be gained from concerted action over a wider field—through area clearance schemes or organised shoots of pigeons, rooks and crows, and through grey squirrel clubs.

  625
  To help in the drive against harmful birds half-price cartridges will be provided from 1st September for organised shooting of rooks, wood pigeons, carrion crows and other bird pests. Area clearance schemes for rabbits are being frustrated by the difficulty of getting at the pests in infested scrub and overgrown woodlands. Again from 1st September, grants of up to 50 per cent. of the cost are to be made available for scrub clearance if it is rabbit infested and forms part of an area clearance scheme.
  Final details of these small measures, not important in themselves but important, I hope, in their effect, have still to be worked out and will be announced later, but farmers who are interested should apply to their county agricultural executive committee, who will be responsible for the local administration of both these schemes.
  Mr. C. N. Thornton-Kemsley: Can my right hon. Friend say whether these schemes apply to Scotland as well as to England and Wales?
  Sir T. Dugdale: My hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland says not yet, but they will.
  My last words before that interruption were about the county agricultural executive committees, and I want to say a word about their work, because in the execution of the food production drive we rely to a very large extent upon the work of many hundreds of members of county and district agricultural executive committees. They are in their own locality local agents of the Minister of the day, and I often think that too little value is placed upon the enormous amount of first-class unpaid service which they give to the community in the district in which they live. I want to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the work of these men, drawn from all ranks of the farming industry and representative as they are of the best elements among landowners, farmers and agricultural workers.
  Just to see how much we owe to them and to the whole farming industry we have to look again at this year's White Paper, which gives the indices of net agricultural output. The figures given in the White Paper this year for the last three years are: 1950–51 143, 1951–52
  626
  149, and 1952–53 151. The last figure is provisional. It has not yet been possible to make a final estimate, but recent marketings of fat stock have been higher than was forecast and suggests that it is possible that the final result will be rather better than 151. At the rate at which production is increasing we should confidently expect to pass the 160 per cent. figure by 1956. The increase in efficient production is, after all, the best way of making sure that the income of the industry is satisfactorily maintained and that the consumer is getting value for his money.
  Having said that, I turn to the other main heading of my speech this afternoon, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman. But before I deal with it I think it might be helpful if I say something about the topic of imports and home prospects and the large supplies of North American grain, because there are some people in the country who are thinking that the existence of large supplies in North America reduces the need for us to expand our tillage acreage. There may even be questions whether some time or other North America grain will flow out and depress price levels of a wide range of primary products.
  I am convinced that there is no reason to be found in such considerations for any relaxation of our drive for expanding food production in this country. Our whole economic position would have to alter before we could contemplate purchasing unlimited quantities of grain from North America. It is true that our balance of payments has been improving steadily and considerably, but we still have a very long way to go.
  Taking a still wider view of the balance between agricultural and industrial production in the countries with which we trade, I do not think that we can afford to relax our production of food at home. In fact, I am certain of it. We must continue to improve both in the quantity and in the quality of our production. As I said before, our task is not one of increasing production at any cost, but of creating, in the words of the Agriculture Act of 1947,
  "a stable and an efficient agricultural industry."
  For that reason I see no cause to revise the general guidance given to the industry

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  about the expansion of production in the White Paper of 1952, confirmed and repeated in the White Paper of this year.
  That brings me to the second main heading of my speech, and that is the discussions we are having with the farmers' leaders about the application of Part I of the 1947 Act as and when wartime controls are relaxed. The question that springs to mind is—how do we propose to reconcile the inevitable and desirable move towards a freer economy with the guarantees of security given to the agricultural industry in Part I of the Act? Members of the Government from the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer downwards have repeatedly spoken in specific terms to emphasise the Government's adherence to the principles of the Agriculture Act, 1947.
  The Government are not proposing and will not propose anything that will give any grounds for arousing fears that the Act of 1947 will become a dead letter. They fully accept the obligation in the words of the Act,
  "of promoting and maintaining, by the provision of guaranteed prices and assured markets … a stable and efficient agricultural industry."
  Let there be no doubt about that. I repeat it, and I hope it will go on record once again in these early days of July, 1953.
  Mr. T. Williams: Am I to take it from the right hon. Gentleman that fixed prices are not hampering, as the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland suggested?
  Sir T. Dugdale: I will come to that subject in a moment.
  What we have to decide is the methods by which this obligation should be discharged. The best way to illustrate that is to quote to the Committee the position commodity by commodity. I come, first, to cereals and the problem of cereal marketing. To avoid any possible misunderstanding, I remind hon. Members that the arrangements for the forthcoming 1953 harvest were settled long ago, and are in good order, for the implementation of the prices fixed for this harvest, following the 1952 Annual Review. The right hon. Gentleman, of course, knows this, but many people get confused on these difficult questions.
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  As hon. Members will recall, we have been discussing with the farmers and all interests concerned the arrangements to be made for the 1954 harvest, to implement the prices which were announced for it last March. In the White Paper published in the spring of this year, we said that we were
  "anxious that permanent marketing arrangements should replace the interim ones before the 1954 harvest and prices for cereals have been fixed on that assumption."
  Accordingly, discussions on the arrangements to be made have been going on for some considerable time. The problems are inevitably complicated and difficult, as many hon. Members will appreciate.
  To mention just some of the complications, the marketing of wheat, barley and oats each presents a quite separate and intricate problem. Indeed, before 1939 there were different arrangements for each of these commodities. As however, we are in the middle of discussions with the leaders of the farmers, the House will not expect me today to give any indication of the kind of detailed plan which, we think, is likely to emerge. I can, however, say that, in the light of discussions that have taken place so far, I have good reason to hope that we shall be able to make a statement very soon of, at any rate, the outline of the scheme which we think will be required to succeed the arrangements that have, as I have stated, already been made to deal with the 1953 harvest. Then will be the time, as the right hon. Gentleman said, for himself and his hon. Friends, if they still think fit, to criticise us for the methods by which we are dealing with the matter.
  So much for cereals, and now a word about milk marketing.
  Sir Robert Boothby: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the subject of cereals, can he say a word about the International Wheat Agreement? Are we right out of that? Is there no hope of our being able to come to any agreement, or is there still a possibility of our doing so?
  Sir T. Dugdale: The International Wheat Agreement is not within my field. I would not go further than ask my hon. Friend, who studies these matters, to read the reports which have been made. There is nothing further on this question than the reports which have been published.

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  Now I come to the question of milk. We have another very large problem on our hands: that is, the problem of the marketing of milk and the action to be taken on the long-standing application—I think it dates back to the time in office of the right hon. Gentleman—from the Milk Marketing Board of England and Wales for the restoration of their full powers. Here, again, the Government have not been idle. We have been very active, although I quite accept that from what has emerged in statements in the House, we might be accused of having done nothing. We are, however, in constant discussions on these matters.
  Early this year, at the opportune moment, the Government were able to authorise the start of consultations with the Milk Marketing Board and with the three Milk Marketing Boards in Scotland, together with the three National Farmers' Unions for England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and with the trade interests concerned in milk manufacture and distribution. Hon. Members will agree that it is, clearly, necessary to consult all these interests before decisions can be reached. Consultations have been, and are, proceeding, and I shall make a further statement as soon as possible. At the moment, however, I cannot foresee when all the necessary consultations are likely to have been completed.
  I should like now to say a word about meat marketing. I have already referred to the announcement made last weekend by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister of Food regarding meat. As that statement suggested, the problems of the decontrol of meat, including pig-meat, have been receiving a good deal of attention by a good number of people. Indeed, a great many people have been talking about the arrangements to be made when the present controls can be brought to an end. Naturally, the Government have also been studying this problem.
  The Committee will remember that, in an answer on 24th June, the Minister of Food stated three requirements that must be satisfied before meat can be completely derationed and decontrolled. He said that whatever arrangements were in force, home producers should receive a guarantee of price and an assurance of market for their livestock, whether cattle, sheep or pigs. I hope that this gives the
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  right hon. Member for Don Valley the assurance which he seeks that we have not overlooked the 1947 Act and our responsibility under it. The issues involved in this field are, as, I think, hon. Members in all parts of the Committee know, large and complicated.
  Let me give an example. In round figures, the value of home produced meat as it leaves the farms is about £320 million per annum. To combine efficient and orderly marketing with satisfactory guarantees and assurances to the producers for so huge a volume of perishable produce, in so many cuts and qualities, obviously presents a tremendous task. It would be rash for me or for anyone to commit himself to the details of a particular way of dealing with this problem without the fullest study and concentration. Here, again, as soon as the time arrives, bearing in mind the assurances given in the House by the Minister of Food, either my right hon. and gallant Friend or I will make a statement to the House.
  The course of policy indicated by the general trend of developments shows that the marketing plans are all inspired by a determination to restore freedom of choice to producers and to consumers, and to restore direct contact between the two. We are not keeping the farmer behind the farm gates and the consumer constricted by a ration book, with a mass of officials deciding what the farmer shall produce and what he shall get for it and what the consumer shall eat and how much he shall pay. The conception of our approach to the problem is that more and more the farmer and the consumer should get into direct touch one with the other and make their own decisions and their own bargains.
  Mr. Paget: Is the right hon. Gentleman considering the various recommendations made in the Report of the Lucas Committee, which considered these very subjects quite recently?
  Sir T. Dugdale: All the material at our disposal was considered. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman may find a little guidance if I continue my speech. I should like to refer to marketing schemes directly.
  I made clear last November, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd), our attitude towards

  631
  marketing boards. In discussions with the farmers' leaders at the beginning of this year we said that, in our opinion, in suitable cases the marketing Acts of 1931 to 1949 provided an effective means through which the guarantee of prices and assured markets could be operated. On the same occasion we re-affirmed our intention to continue the system of annual reviews of the economic position of the industry, with a view to ensuring realistic and economic price guarantees designed to encourage the required production, as laid down in the Agriculture Act, 1947.
  Difficult financial and marketing problems have to be faced in operating these arrangements in a free market. It is inevitable that before decisions can be reached each commodity must be considered on its own merits with full regard to the particular conditions of its production and distribution. That is inevitable, because agricultural products vary in their nature and usage. Even wheat and oats have to be dealt with by different methods. It is a complete illusion to believe that it is practicable, just by taking thought, to determine a formula which applies to all commodities indiscriminately. That is a kind of longhaired planning in which the present Government are not going to indulge. I am not accusing right hon. Gentlemen opposite of it.
  We are dealing with great sums of money and the livelihood of many thousands of hard-working people who are producing and trading in commodities vital to the life of the people, and in great variety to meet many tastes and needs. We are therefore proceeding by the sound British method of ascertaining and considering carefully, in full consultation with all the affected interests, the hard, practical facts which must govern how we can deal with each commodity. Producer-controlled marketing boards are not bodies which can be expected to handle public funds just as if they were bodies directly controlled by the Government. The very fact that they are controlled by producers introduces special problems. This does not mean that they cannot be the channel through which a guarantee of prices and assured markets can be operated. All the time our commitments under Part I of the 1947 Act hold.
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  I am afraid that I have detained the Committee too long on this very important subject. I would end my review of our problems in this field by saying that we must have careful and practical discussions on these problems commodity by commodity, and these discussions are bound to take much time. In such a period there is bound to be anxiety and speculation, which may disturb some producers. Until the necessary studies and discussions have been carried to a conclusion it is impossible for the Government to do more than reiterate their ability and determination to implement adequately the guarantees under the Agriculture Act.
  I ask the Committee, and indeed producers throughout the country, to consider that the more sincerity and weight there is in our assurances the more essential it is to see that the new arrangements for supporting farmers' incomes are sound and workable. Circumstances may arise at some unknown future date in which these arrangements will have to carry the burden of very considerable payments. Guarantees would be worth nothing if this were not so. It is therefore in the producers' own interests for us to ensure that the arrangements that we make can be smoothly, justly and properly administered, and can be well defended against hostile criticism from any quarter.
  5.37 p.m.
  Mr. James Johnson: In face of the serried ranks of members of the National Farmers' Union opposite, I may be a little diffident about dogmatising about the Minister's speech. As one with a county constituency of about 500 farmers, I must say that much of what the Minister said over the last hour or so is most welcome to people like myself.
  I want to pick up some points which have been mentioned and comment upon them. What the Minister said is welcome to me, and so were the assurances he gave about the stability of the future of the farming industry. He will recall that one of the leaders, the county delegate of the Warwickshire Farmers' Union, said some short while ago that this Government had not got a clue in their farming policy. We shall see. Perhaps he was a little pessimistic about the Minister.
  All sides of the Committee will agree that there is need for much more capital in the farming industry. Where are the

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  farmers to get it, and on what terms? Some farmers I talk to in my constituency are most concerned about the policy of this Government. Many of them have been staunch supporters of the Government and many still are, but have been somewhat disillusioned over the last two years. I have farmer constituents who have mortgages in the thousands and they recall with some nostalgia the happy days when we were in power and they got money slightly more cheaply, at 2½ per cent. Now they have to pay something like 5½ per cent. That is a considerable change in the situation.
  The Minister will no doubt remember that the secretary of the county farmers' union in Warwickshire, Mr. E. K. Lax, has commented upon this matter. He has gone beyond that and said that the farmers today are not merely paying more for their money but are having difficulty in getting their money at the banks. I hope that the Minister will note this point and will do what he can with the banks to make money easier for the farmers in the Midlands. That is very important, because with the mechanisation that has taken place in the last few years many farmers are heavily committed to capital outlays. As one not versed in such bucolic matters, I suggest with some diffidence that there is a case here for a land bank or central State fund, such as operates in New Zealand and Sweden, which will allow our farmers more money on easier terms than they are afforded at the moment. The small farmers are feeling the pinch today.
  My second point is the need for capital investment in the countryside. I will not talk now about "time and motion study" on the farm, but there is an enormous need to improve the amenities and the lay-out of many of our farms, particularly those which have buildings half a century or more old. If we improve the amenities and make life pleasanter not merely for the farmers but for their wives and, what is even more important, for their sons and daughters, we shall have taken a major step to check the exodus which has been continuing, despite the figures given by the Ministry.
  Farms could be more economically planned. Yesterday we had a debate on education and the Ministry of Education
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  were given encomiums for their planning and designing of schools. I should like to know whether the Minister of Agriculture has a section in his Department for the design and planning of farms. It may be that he has and that, like the Ministry of Education in the case of schools, he is sending out bulletins to farmers with suggestions on how they might better plan the lay-out of their farms.
  We have heard about the electrification of the countryside, and I was very happy to hear of it. We have also heard about the extra £1 million that is being spent on piped water. But this should not be just a matter of piped water to the farms. It is just as important to have piped water taken to schools and houses so as to eliminate earth closets and other abominations which make living so intolerable for farmers and their families. There is also the need to provide better bus services. For example, there is a service only once a week from the hamlet of Cosford in my constituency, to take farm workers and their wives to the market town of Rugby. We have had enormous difficulty in holding farm workers in that area because of the poor transport facilities.
  When the Minister talks about the importation of Canadian wheat at a cost of thousands of pounds, I hope that he will mention to his colleagues these matters of education and transport which mean so much to farmers and their families who live in the remote countryside. I hope also that he will whisper in his colleagues' ears something about the countryside's legacy of old schools. The rural areas have never had a square deal in the matter of schools. We have schools for children aged five to 15 in South Warwickshire, but we have not had a modern school built there for many years. One can still say that in that area there is no secondary education in the full meaning of the term. A few scholars travel to grammar schools in Warwick and Leamington, but the 1944 Education Act is virtually not in existence there. The children are still in old elementary schools, now called "secondary modern," but they are not really secondary schools. I plead with the Minister to fight for better amenities and more comfortable living conditions for the people of the countryside and the country towns.

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  I should like to refer to two aspects of the 1947 Act upon which the Minister touched in his speech. We need much more food and we must go high above this moderate target of a 60 per cent. increase over 1939. I believe in the 1947 Act, and I was glad to hear that the Minister also believes in it. I was glad to have the assurances which he gave to the Committee. We want long-term legislation and we need the pledges which the Minister has given on behalf of the Government. We want no sudden changes to let the farmers down, no more than we want sudden changes to let down the miners or the steel workers or any other section of our community.
  While I do not believe that all farmers are "feather-bedded," if I may say so in the presence of my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans), I do believe that townspeople expect the farmers to give an adequate return for the guarantees which the Government have provided. There is an obligation upon the farmers to be efficient. In the old days bad farmers got out because they went bankrupt. In this more modern climate of State planning and help numbers of farmers go out by the more democratic method of being evicted, if that is the right term, by their own fellow-farmers, plus the officials of the county agricultural executive committees.
  I should like to know how many farmers are being evicted each year. Does the Minister, in the light of his experience, think that the number is too high or too low? I add the caveat that I, and many like me, would warn him against victimisation by county committees. Terms like "witch-hunting" have been used in the Midlands. We do not want small farmers to be pushed out by a committee consisting of their wealthier brethren in the county plus officials of the Ministry.
  But these committees must do their job and must dispel any shadow of doubt in the minds of people in the towns that there is inefficiency in this the largest industry of ours. There is much misunderstanding between town and country and much more need of mutual confidence between the two. The Minister will know of experiments which are being
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  carried out in the Midlands to secure a better feeling between urban dwellers and those who live in the countryside. The British Thomson-Houston Company in Rugby, for instance, are sending out parties of their executives and workers to farms in Warwickshire. They have visited in particular the very fine farm of Mr. Weatherall of Pailton, the chairman of the local National Farmers' Union. Warwickshire farms are also adopting urban schools, for example, in Coventry.
  As a result of all these efforts a better feeling is being created between the farmer and the engineer on the floor of the shop whose wife is buying agricultural produce in the markets. The sons and daughters of the shop stewards are acquiring greater knowledge of conditions in the countryside 10 or 20 miles away. If we secure in this way a more closely knit society we shall weather more successfully the difficult conditions of present-day economic life.
  The Minister has given us a large number of figures about the increase in the number of pigs, sheep and cattle. He was happy to give us these figures and we were happy to hear them, but I hope that when the Parliamentary Secretary replies to this debate he will be able to dispel an impression which I have received from talking to some of my constituents. They are concerned at the way in which the 1947 Act is working out in the matter of price emphasis. It may be a temporary means of obtaining more meat next year or in two or three years' time, with the deliberate knowledge that this would be in the Government's favour if and when there is another election. Be that as it may, the Government are placing the emphasis upon beef and cattle production, as the figures prove, whilst milch herds tend to suffer by comparison.
  Some time ago I mentioned a figure in the House which I believe is still correct; I said that herds of beef cattle are making a profit of something like £1,200 per 100 acres, but I am told that milch herds are at the moment losing something like £40 per 100 acres compared with what they were making some time ago. I should like to know whether it is correct that we are swinging this way and that farmers with milch herds elsewhere are dissatisfied. Is that the case in East

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  Anglia, for example? If so, I think it is deplorable that they should be in that situation, because we shall need milk not merely next year but for many years to come.
  This nostalgic obsession that many people have for the roast beef of old England is misplaced. Indeed, I think it is dangerous. The days of cheap beef have gone. We cannot afford it. If we emphasise the production of beef so much in this way, our farming costs will rise; and for my part I should be happier if milk farmers were not to suffer in this way. In this vital matter of assuring our food supplies, it is not a question of emphasising beef or milk for any political end, and for getting votes. Our food production and agricultural policy are as vital as our foreign policy. It is not a partisan matter at all. It is very important in this field that we should think only of the nation's food. Since to me farming policy is as serious as our foreign policy, I hope that the impression to which I have referred will be dissipated at the earliest moment.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Phelim O'Neill: May I ask the indulgence of the Committee on rising to address it for the first time? I think it is right and proper that in any of these general agricultural debates some Member representing Northern Ireland should intervene, because we who represent agricultural constituencies in Northern Ireland undoubtedly represent more actual farms and farmers than any other hon. Members.
  We are a community of small family farmers, almost all of us owning our own holdings. Nearly all of us till our soil with our own hands, the soil which in most cases has been tilled by our fathers and grandfathers before us. We are essentially the biggest collection of family farmers in the United Kingdom. Our agricultural industry is our very life blood, and the whole prosperity of our province fundamentally depends on our agriculture.
  Generally speaking, the main problem from an agricultural point of view with which this country is faced is to increase production in order to improve our balance of payments position; secondly,
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  we must never forget and must always keep a watchful eye on the cost of living which bears so heavily on us all. It is necessary for us to produce from our own fertile fields as much of our food and animal feedingstuffs as we possibly can, and at the same time make sure that our agricultural products appear on the market at the lowest possible price.
  The 1947 Agricultural Act was surely devised to reconcile these two somewhat conflicting problems, and in my view it has worked exceedingly well. I am very glad to hear the Minister undertake to continue its main provisions of guaranteed prices and assured markets. My view is that if we are to increase our agricultural production by a further 15 per cent. it is mainly to the smaller farms throughout the United Kingdom that we must look. Surely by now the factory farms and broad acres, with all their advantages of mechanisation and availability of capital, must have very nearly reached the peak of their production.
  I feel that it is mainly, though of course, not entirely, to the small farmers that we must look to obtain the increase of production which is so vitally necessary to us all. In general, the small farms are located in more distant and remote parts of the kingdom, far away from their markets in the urban districts.
  I must frankly say that we in Northern Ireland have been somewhat perturbed by the only scheme which is so far in operation, namely the interim egg scheme. It seems to me that this scheme, if anything, tends to benefit the broad acres and those who are near their markets, to the disadvantage of the smaller people who have a long distance to send their goods. Since the interim egg scheme was introduced, our farmers in Northern Ireland have, generally speaking, received 3d. a dozen less for their eggs than in other parts of the United Kingdom. This is a very serious matter for us, because in Northern Ireland the poultry industry is not just an ancillary one. It is one of our main agricultural sources of income.
  I should like to quote a few figures to show of what vital importance our poultry industry is to us. In 1950 we exported across the Irish Sea 48 million dozen eggs; in 1951, 43 million dozen

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  eggs; and in 1952, 41 million dozen eggs, in round figures worth an annual sum of £10 million to our farmers. It can readily be seen that it is a very serious matter if the price we receive lags behind that which is received in England.
  I and my hon. Friends have received a good many letters on this subject from our constituents, and small farmers do not readily take to the pen. They write letters only when they feel very deeply about something. Here is a typical example—from a letter which was received by one of my hon. Friends the other day:
  "As our representative at Westminster I wish to draw your attention to the very law price we are getting for eggs compared to what producers are receiving in England. Our eggs have been 3s. 6d. a dozen for quite a few weeks now, and this with meal 5½ times the prewar price. This price is no use at all. If prices do not improve we will be obliged to sell out. I bought four tons of hard coal nuts last week. The price was £42 2s. delivered."
  There is a postcript to which I would ask the Minister to pay attention, because he can hardly disagree with it, and it sums up in seven words the whole of our problem.
  "P.S. Our farms cannot be moved to England."
  We have had to bear the burden of incoming freight for a very long time. Our coal—as evidenced by this letter—our agricultural machinery and many of our fertilisers and feedingstuffs, all of which we import across the Irish Sea, cost us slightly more than they do anywhere else except in a few very remote parts of Scotland. We have always cheerfully borne this burden because we have felt that we have been fairly treated in receiving parity of price with our English, Scottish and Welsh friends, but, being of a somewhat canny nature—many of us emanate from Scotland—we are perturbed at the pattern which has been set by the Government's interim egg scheme. I agree that this is only an interim scheme, it has not been running for very long, and that we should not judge it too rapidly, but many people in my constituency are gravely alarmed at the thought that this scheme may set the general pattern for future schemes which the Government have in mind.
  I would ask the Minister three questions. First, can he tell us when this
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  interim scheme is likely to be replaced by a permanent and more just arrangement? Secondly, supposing the interim scheme is still in force when the next Price Review takes place in the spring, how are prices to be calculated when different parts of the country obtain different amounts for their commodities? It seems that the price for the fortunate producer near his market must either be too high, if the person at the other end of the scale is to get a reasonable price or, alternatively, if the fortunate man living near his market gets the right price for his eggs, giving him a reasonable margin of profit, the unfortunate man at the other end must get too little. This seems to be fundamental in any scheme where parity of price does not exist. I should be extremely grateful if the Minister could explain exactly how price fixing can be arranged where parity of prices does not exist.
  Lastly, if he can possibly do so, I should like to be assured about something which is causing grave anxiety throughout Northern Ireland. Our potato crop is a most vital one. Owing to our soil and local conditions, it is virtually the only root crop that we can satisfactorily grow. I want to know if the Minister can give us an unqualified assurance that, whatever scheme the Government may ultimately have in mind for this commodity, we shall receive a fair price. I should also like him to give us an undertaking that our crop will be moved gradually throughout the winter months, and not solely in the late spring and early summer.
  6.7 p.m.
  Mr. Desmond Donnelly: It is always a great privilege for a very junior Member of this House to have an opportunity of congratulating someone who has just made a maiden speech. It is a very great privilege to me to congratulate the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Mr. P. O'Neill) most warmly for the admirable speech he has made.
  I may have shifted my carpet bag from Ireland to the mountains of Wales, and changed my name to "Donnethly," but I still have a warm feeling of affection for the people of Northern Ireland. That feeling of affection was recently accentuated, because the other day someone came to see me who had been one of my constituents in the constituency of Down,

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  where I had fought the by-election of 1946. He asked if I could get him a seat in the Gallery. His reasons for staking his claim and asking for me was that he had voted for me on no fewer than 32 occasions in the same by-election.
  The hon. Member for Antrim, North also speaks for a Northern Ireland constituency, although the pleasure of doing the same thing for his constituents is yet to come, because I understand that he was fortunate enough to be returned unopposed. He has a distinguished name in this House and there is a particularly warm feeling for him among all those who knew his father. How glad we are to see the tradition which his father set in this House—of which he was such a distinguished Member for many years—carried on by the hon. Member this afternoon.
  I now turn to the speech of the Minister of Agriculture. Having said all the pleasant things, I shall start on the unpleasant ones. I listened to the right hon. Gentleman's remarks very carefully, and I could not help thinking that he was suffering a little from Abingdon champagne. I thought his remarks were more than a bit too cosy and rosy to give one a real appreciation of the difficult problems facing the agricultural community today.
  It is perfectly true that we are making an improvement here and we may be giving some assistance there. We all welcome the statement made by the Minister of Fuel and Power the other day about rural electrification, but the plain truth is that a good deal more has to be done to change the whole pattern of British agriculture if we are to achieve economic independence of foreign aid. Depending on the pattern of British agriculture and the production of British agriculture is the whole extent of British influence in the world and also the extent of British independence in foreign policy. Very often when I speak to some of my friends in the Labour movement, not in this House, they ask for some Socialist initiative on foreign policy, but I point out that that initiative must inevitably be based on much greater food production in this country, because we cannot pursue an independent policy of any kind unless we have economic security behind us.
  The position of British agriculture is far from satisfactory. There are more than 10 million acres of poor grassland
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  which need rejuvenation—nearly one quarter of all Britain's agricultural land. The quality of British farming is very unequal. As we travel through the countryside we see, here and there, the well-kept farm building, the well-kept fields, of some particularly prosperous farmer, but that is still an outstanding sight against the grey hills. Here and there we see the successful, efficient farming unit, but these are all too few today, and British farming is far too unequal to give us a sense of complacency. Agricultural investment still has far too low a priority.
  There is far too small a connection between the money which goes into the agricultural industry and that which goes into capital investment in the industry and is finally reflected in increased production. Far too few of the best scientific brains in this country spend their time on agricultural problems. A great deal more can be done in that respect, although we have begun to make some progress since the war. Very few of our best young people are going on to the land today. Far too few of the young lads with the best initiative and the most enterprise are finding their way on to the land and we are a long way from any situation in which we could have any feeling of complacency.
  Without going into the technicalities, it seems to me that the problem of trying to get a substantial increase in agricultural production falls under three main headings. I believe that the Government's target of a 60 per cent. increase over 1939 levels is far too low. I should like to see an increase of 100 per cent. by 1960. We want to set out sights high if we are to make an impression on the problem.
  The first point is that we must have more people on the land, because there is no substitute for human manpower on the land, however much we achieve in the way of technical advances. The problem of the proportion of people in this country engaged in food production, in relation to the other industrial workers of Britain is becoming increasingly acute. I have some figures which may interest the Committee. In 1881 there were 1,593,000 farm workers in Britain. In 1952 the figure had fallen to 800,000. In 1881, just after the beginning of the agricultural depression, the proportion was 1,250 people in agriculture for every

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  10,000 workers. In 1911 that had fallen to 818. By 1921 it had fallen to 675 and by 1939 to 360 per 10,000. By 1946 it had gone up a little to 433, but by 1952 it had fallen to the all-time low of 353. It is still going down. Unless we can arrest that trend in agriculture, we shall not get the full production we are all so anxious to get and to which we are so ready to pay lip-service whenever the opportunity arises.
  Part of the reason for this drift from the land lies in the provision of amenities, and we are only too ready to see what we can do to improve the amenities in the countryside. Nevertheless, I believe something much more fundamental is involved. In village after village, the lad who is the bright lad, capable of the most initiative, ready to work hard eventually gets fed up and leaves the village to go to the town because he has no opportunity of getting out of the rut of being a farm worker and of becoming a farmer in his own right.
  The smallholdings policy has made some impact on the problem but it does not really meet the situation. Every time a smallholding is advertised in my part of the world, there are over 100 applicants for it. That gives some idea of the land hunger which exists. Until we are prepared to face this question of opportunity on the land, we shall not attract people on to the land, nor shall we keep on the land those whom we ought to keep there—those with the most initiative and energy and readiness to work hard.
  The right hon. Gentleman has not dealt with this question to my satisfaction this afternoon. He spoke of the farm apprentices scheme, which is one step in the right direction—we all welcome it—but a great deal more can be done about agricultural education in the rural areas. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) was at the Ministry of Agriculture, he was undertaking a scheme of county agricultural colleges. We have not heard very much about that of late. I suggest to the Minister that he should look into this situation again, because British farming in the future, more than ever in the past, depends on the technical ability and the modern methods
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  employed by the young people who are coming on to the land.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) said, a great deal more can be done in giving financial assistance to agriculture through the banks lending money not on the ordinary bank security but on farming enterprise and on the farming prospects and potentialities of a farm. We may make one or two mistakes, but if we are not prepared to risk making mistakes we shall never do anything. It is important to ensure that there is equality of opportunity and a feeling that the sky is the limit for the British farm worker if we are to get the flow on to the land of the agricultural workers we need.
  That brings me to the fundamental question of land tenure. This is a Committee of Supply, so that it is not in order for me to deal with legislation, but it is permissible for me to mention that this problem cannot be solved without a radical alteration in the system of land tenure—and I shall have a few words to say about that later. I hope I am keeping in order.
  Coming back for a moment to the question of the farm worker, although there has been an announcement in today's newspapers of a rise in agricultural wages, the problem is still not met. I was looking at some comparative figures between the wages of farm workers and the national average wages for weekly employed workers. In 1938 the national average was 53s. and the farm workers' wage was 34s. In 1946 the national average had risen to 101s. and the farm workers' wage was 80s.—just over 20s. behind. In 1952 the national average was 151s. 11d. and the farm workers' wage was 113s. Today's increase makes some difference, of course, but it still means that the farm workers' wage is lagging far behind the average industrial workers' wage in Britain.
  This is not an average industry; this is a priority industry. Upon this industry depends the standard of life of the people in the whole of the country, and it concerns the people in the towns just as much as those in the countryside. I cannot see the problem being met by the piecemeal methods which the Minister talked about this afternoon. I warn the Committee

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  that there must be a much more comprehensive approach than we have had so far.
  Let me turn from the question of men to the second point, which is method. There is a good deal of apprehension in all parts of the country, in the rural areas as well as in the towns, at the large sums of money which have been going into agriculture and the fact that these large sums have not to the same extent been reflected in increased production. Net farming profits in 1937 were £37 million and in 1951 were £294 million—an increase of 400 per cent. Output in those 14 years has risen by 40 per cent. so that the increase in incomes has exceeded the increase in output by 10 times.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) speaks for a great many people in this country when he talks about the apprehension which exists in the towns and, as I said, in the countryside, too, about the large sums of money which are going into agriculture. The hon. Member for Wednesbury is a good friend of mine, and I have always felt that if he had stuck to the straight stage instead of going on to the political music hall, he would have made a substantial impact on this point which he has been making for some time. Nevertheless, he does speak for a large section of the British nation, and the farming industry would be well advised to pay attention to the increasing apprehension as a result of the large sums going into the industry not being matched by comparable increases in production.
  Obviously the first difficulty that arises is that of framing the guaranteed prices system to make it possible for the marginal farmer on the uplands of Wales or Scotland to live without at the same time "greasing" the fat cattle farmer in the plains of Devonshire. Farming is not like a factory. The costs of production vary so much in any part of the country. Land fertility, the vicissitudes of the weather and other circumstances vary, and it is very difficult indeed to frame a guaranteed price system which makes it possible for the marginal farmer to live, and the midland farmer to live, without, to use a phrase of my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury, "feather-bedding" some people.
  This is where much of the apprehension arises in the minds of many people
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  who have great good will for agriculture, who have great good will towards the people of the rural areas such as those I represent. I think it is important for us who represent the agricultural interest to recognise the dangers implied in those criticisms, and to see that we meet the arguments that are raised in them, for unless we do we may have to face a political agitation, in which, in the last analysis, the strength will lie with the people in the towns, because they have the enormous preponderance of votes, and the people living in the countryside will go to the wall.
  I do not see how we can deal with this problem of avoiding giving some people too much while making it possible for others to live without a system of differential rents or a graduated land tax. Those are two possible arrangements.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: Particularly the latter.
  Mr. Donnelly: My hon. Friend says particularly the latter. Some of us in the Labour Party believe in land nationalisation, and it is the birthright of the British Labour movement. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby says some do not; but some do, and it may be assisted by some such system. However, coming back to the two possible proposals, a system of differential rents or a differential land tax of some kind based on the fertility of the land, I would say that it is important for us to remember what an artificial situation has grown up so far as agricultural land is concerned, largely due, perhaps, to the economic situation that exists in the agricultural industry today.
  There was a very interesting article in the "Statist" of 28th February based on a report of the Land Owners' Association which was produced in conjunction with the Ministry. It said:
  "The average gross rental in England and Wales in 1951 was 33s. an acre, which is 1s. 6d. an acre less than it was in 1872, when the £ was worth three or four times what it is today."
  That gives some idea of the artificial situation which has grown up. The article also said:
  "An economic anomaly, of steady persistence, is the low level of farm rents. The proportion which rent forms of a farmer's costs has fallen by a half over the last 30 years until it is now only some 6 per cent. Yet the sale value of farm land has been steadily rising."

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  That brings us to the problem of seeing that tenant farmers' interests are safeguarded, and that when farms become vacant opportunities are given to good, capable, hard-working farm workers, or to the lads who have grown up on the land and who have experience and knowledge of working it, to obtain them, and not to be outbid for the farms. We ought to see that those who take the farms are men capable of farming them to the best national advantage. Land is a limited monopoly. It is becoming an increasingly limited monopoly, and the longer that situation goes on the more difficult it will be for us to see that every acre of agricultural land is efficiently farmed. A farmer who farms inefficiently at the moment may be doing himself a financial injury, but in the years ahead he will be perpetrating an economic crime against the nation, and it is in the nation's interest to see that the farms are farmed efficiently.
  Mr. Denys Bullard: Is the hon. Gentleman advocating putting on a land tax? I gather that in "Challenge to Britain" there is a proposal to re-rate agricultural land. Does he not think that these things are bound to affect economic food production?
  The Temporary Chairman (Sir Gordon Touche): The hon. Gentleman, of course, will not advocate anything which involves legislation.
  Mr. Donnelly: I could not agree more. Sir Gordon. I was not advocating anything that would, but just looking at these matters. I thank you for your intervention, Sir Gordon.
  In talking about the guaranteed price system and the political implications I am not attacking the guaranteed price system at this stage, because that would involve legislation, too. I am having a look at the matter. What I am saying is that we must get a closer tie-up between the money that goes into the agricultural industry and an increase in capital investment in the industry, and, therefore, an increase of production in that industry. At the moment there is a feeling that a lot of that money is going into Rover cars and in going to hunt balls. I should like
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  to see a great deal more of it going into new farm buildings and farm machinery, and the use of fertilisers, for greater farm production.
  As to the use of fertilisers, I would quote some figures to show how we compare with other countries. Here the use of fertilisers is expressed in pounds per acre, excluding rough grazing land. For nitrates the figures are: Holland, 63; Belgium, 38; Norway, 27; Germany, 23; the United Kingdom, 14. For phosphates: in Holland, 46; Belgium, 39; Norway, 30; Germany, 27; the United Kingdom, 30. For potash: in Holland, 59; Belgium, 74; Norway, 36; Germany, 43; the United Kingdom, 16. Those are very disquieting figures. We must to some extent have high farming because that is the only way we shall achieve the targets hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the Committee nodded their heads about earlier on.
  The question of capital investment is something to which little attention has been paid by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Capital investment in farming has been steadily going down since the war, taken as a percentage of the national income, and it must be borne in mind that this is the industry on which the future survival of British economic independence is dependent. It has to be considered in the context of that situation. In 1948 we spent ·81 per cent. of our national income on capital investment in agriculture; in 1949, ·74; in 1950, ·73; in 1951, ·73; in 1952, ·71; and it is still going down pro rata. That is something for which Ministers must answer.
  I think it springs from the fact that the Minister of Agriculture has not sufficient status in the Government. The Minister of Agriculture should be a member of the Cabinet. My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley was a member of the Cabinet, and he exercised a profound influence on the national economy. The present Minister is either answering to some overlord in another place or else he is making patchwork speeches here, trying to cover up some of the administrative difficulties in the Ministry. I have no ill-feeling against the medical hon. Member for Luton (Dr. Hill) when I say that we want a Ministry of Food Production. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would be only too happy to leave the cares of his office and deal with the

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  problems which arise from eating too much food instead of having to deal with the problem of getting that food.
  We cannot deal with this problem without increased capital investment, raising the status of the Ministry of Agriculture and putting the Minister of Agriculture into the Cabinet. It is no good his sheltering behind the overlords and other people whom we cannot get at here. This is the House of Commons and we are the people who should have the main responsibility for this policy and give him the necessary position, status and support when he gives this particular industry a special priority.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture mentioned the agricultural committees. Inevitably the agricultural committees are just as much a part of the Government's administrative system in relation to farming as are the Ministry of Agriculture in their status in the central Government at Whitehall. A great responsibility rests on the agricultural committees. We cannot farm from Whitehall, and the less farming we have from Whitehall the better. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. Members opposite are beginning to learn a few things. They have been carried away by their own propaganda in the past.
  Mr. Archer Baldwin: What about groundnuts?
  Mr. Donnelly: We spent £20 million on groundnuts. What about the £295 million which went into British agriculture and which did not show a comparable return in production? The hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) may talk about groundnuts, but he should bear in mind the fact that farmers' incomes have gone up by 400 per cent. They have gone up largely at the expense of the British nation. The British nation has a right to know where the money has gone. The hon. Gentleman should remember that he may not be getting that money in the future because the industry is not satisfying the country's needs.
  To come back to the question of agricultural committees, although we pay tribute to these committees which have done good work and pay tribute to the members of the committees who have given their services freely and without any financial remuneration, many of us
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  are profoundly disturbed about the work of some of these committees. Some of them are fast asleep and a lot of them have members who are fast asleep. I think that a good breath of fresh air should be brought in. We should have another look at this matter to see whether or not we cannot improve some of the personnel, and whether or not some of the people who have served a long time on these committees would not be glad to relinquish their office. It is very important that these committees should be reviewed closely from time to time. Many of their members have been there for a long time, have lost a sense of reality and are out of touch with new trends in the industry.
  Coming to the next question, which is equally vital, and which I mentioned earlier on, I do not believe that we can get the necessary output in agriculture without new incentives which will bring new farm workers into the industry because of new opportunities. I do not believe that can be done without a radical change in our land tenure system, and I do not believe that we can get increased output until we have increased incentive for those farming the land. Far too many are dog-and-stick farmers. I believe that if farm rentals could be brought more closely into line with the economic situation in the agricultural industry, we should get greater incentive. I agree that it is outside the scope of this debate on a Supply Day to advocate new legislation, and I had some difficulty in restraining hon. Members opposite from getting me to advocate new legislation earlier on. I do not believe that any of this can be done without the nationalisation of rented farmland and I do not believe that we can get increased production in the agricultural industry without increasing the capital investment in the industry.
  I do not believe that we can get that capital investment or that public opinion will stand for it until there is a closer tie-up between money going into the industry, and money actually invested in the industry. That brings me back to the question of the nationalisation of rented farm land. I do not believe that we can get increased production in agriculture without a complete change of the national approach to the agricultural

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  industry. I do not believe that we can get it until we recognise that the Minister of Agriculture and the agricultural industry is as important as the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs or the Leader of the House of Commons.
  This is the most vital industry of all at this moment. Dependent on it is not only the standard of life of the people of Britain but also the influence which the people of Britain exercise in the world. If we look at this industry and give it the priority necessary it will respond. I believe that the problems facing it should be regarded as a stimulating and not as a depressing factor. I believe that the men in the industry have the indigenous skill and capacity, and that, if given a lead by the Government, we could put British agriculture in a position in which it has never been before. It could lead the world and play a large part in increasing British interest in the second half of the 20th Century, with beneficial results to the whole world.
  6.37 p.m.
  Sir Albert Braithwaite: It is a long time since I took part in an agricultural debate. Having changed from an agricultural constituency to an urban constituency, it may seem a little strange for me to do so, but I have always had the most intense interest in the production of food in these islands.
  The more I move round the world, the more I feel that it is necessary that we should endeavour to increase in every possible way the means of feeding ourselves out of our own resources. The 1947 Act has done a great deal for the farming community. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) that the incentives and the drive in agriculture are not there. I am quite satisfied that they are building up steadily, and that the scientific end of the industry is improving every year.
  We know that there is a lot to be done. There have been a lot of things to be done in this country since the war, and it is remarkable to me that agriculture has made such a wonderful improvement over what it was. I am a practical farmer. I farm nearly 4,000 acres of land, and so I do know something about what I am saying. I know a great many of the
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  difficulties with which the industry is faced. I am more than conscious that the new conditions in which we farm today are going to show very substantial help to this country in increased production and in increased efficiency.
  I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture, quite plainly, to be more specific about what he wants in the form of added production—the different items that he wants. We have had all this talk about the improvement of cereals and about the improvement of red meat. Those are things, of course, which we have to build up, but let us be a litle more specific to our own farming community. We are prepared to give a guarantee to Australia for nine years for a supply of meat to this country at a specific price. We are not prepared to give it to our fanners beyond 1956.
  Mr. S. N. Evans: Surely the hon. Gentleman is not saying that we have given Australia a guarantee which settles the price of meat nine years ahead?
  Sir A. Braithwaite: I certainly am. We have given Australia an undertaking that she can produce the meat and we will give her an economic price for nine years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] After all, we have a Price Review here every year.
  Mr. Paget: We have given a guarantee to our farmers in perpetuity in Section 1 of the Agriculture Act.
  Sir A. Braithwaite: Prices are changed every year in the Price Review. Let us be fair. I urge the Government to take the matter item by item, as the Minister said, and let us know for longer ahead than we now know what we are to get for a certain commodity.
  Capital investment is a very serious item in the cost of production in farming today. One cannot go into a modern farm with hand labour, as used to happen in the old days, and expect to make it pay. One now has to provide all sorts of machinery, including drilling machinery, drying and preparing machinery, tractors of all kinds and cultivators of all kinds, in order to make a success of the land. The capital cost today is staggering.
  I propose to give the Committee some idea of what it costs to produce certain items. When we talk of millions of pounds of agricultural production it does not mean anything. It means more when

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  we break it down into the items. To re-seed one acre of high-quality ley costs £12 to £15, to rear a two-year-old store beast costs £40 to £50, to produce an eight-score bacon pig costs about £18, and to produce a sheep costs £5. These figures are out of all relation to pre-war figures. What we have asked for by 1956 will impose upon our farmers an increased financial turnover of not less than £60 million to £70 million a year, and that cannot be done unless more money goes into the industry.
  Where shall we get the money? The Chancellor had to make regulations about the bank overdrafts which farmers had to have. Farming advances in 1951 totalled £203 million, but by May of this year they had dropped to £198 million. That means that there is £5 million less in the industry in 1953, when we want an increase, than in the previous year. At the same time the only source of long-term credit for the industry is the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, and the Corporation's rates of interest have risen from 4½ to 5½ per cent., which adds to the cost of production. What is the Government going to do to provide more capital for the farming community?
  The farmer turns over his total investment only once in every 17 months. Most industries turn over their capital three or four times a year. The farmer has to wait a very long time. When we ask him to raise beef cattle, it is three years before he gets anything back again. How is he to finance himself during that time? What steps are the Government taking to enable the farmer to obtain the necessary credit to carry through the operation? These are pertinent questions which the Minister will have to answer if our agricultural production is to be improved to the extent that we desire, and I believe that in another five years' time our agricultural production ought to be double what it was pre-war if we handle the problem properly.
  I cannot believe that there will again be a surplus of food in the world, and, therefore, we shall have to rely very largely upon what we ourselves can produce here. Because of the increase in economic independence of other countries and the improvement in their standard of life, the commodities which were years ago sold on the open market are not now available. We are now realising that we
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  must ourselves produce what we want. The British public are entitled to a change from the starchy foods which they have had to eat for so long. We need to produce more meat, more sugar and more of the vitamins that really count in building up the sound bodies that we expect our people to have.
  My only excuse for intervening is to urge upon the Government the need for a proper financial plan for the agricultural industry instead of leaving it just to drift along until we find that we have not accomplished the things that we have set out to do. I have nothing but commendation for the work that was done by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) and for what has been done by my right hon. Friend in building up the industry to what it ought to be.
  However, I do not want the farmers to be given too hopeless a task. We ought to give the farmers more help. We should leave the farmers to make their profit, for we certainly do not want that end of the business taken care of, but we should give farmers credit, and they will then find a way to achieve the productive effort that the nation expects of the agricultural industry. I hope the whole country will realise the vital necessity of preserving our great industry and of making it stronger now than it has ever been in our history.
  6.48 p.m.
  Mr. S. N. Evans: I am always lost in admiration for the propaganda ability of the N.F.U. leaders and their members. If they were half as good at producing farm-fed beef as they are in producing farm-fed propaganda, we should all be living like fighting cocks.
  I cannot understand all this talk about the industry being short of capital. My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), whom we are all glad to see back here today, said in May, 1950, that about £1,000 million had gone into the industry since the war. I should have thought that that was a fairly high rate of capital expansion compared with any other industry, for instance, the coal industry.
  There is also the constant moaning over the increase of 1 per cent. in the terms charged for credit. Good

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  gracious me, who with a thriving business bothers about 1 per cent., which is £10 in £1,000? I am not discussing the merits of the increase of 1 per cent., but the idea that the increase is having an adverse effect on production seems to me to be ludicrous.
  I agree with much of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly). I thought at one time that I had got a new recruit, but then he deviated the other way. I agree with him that this agricultural problem has to be seen against a wider background. We live in a continuing state of crisis. The balance of payments problem continues to reduce every other political issue to strictly secondary status. Therefore, I agree entirely that the necessity for a vigorous, efficient British agricultural industry cannot be overemphasised.
  Whether this industry is going to be stable and prosperous in the years to come depends, however, on a much more vigorous initiative from inside the industry itself. No British Government, Labour, Conservative or any other, can improve the lot of the farmer indefinitely except within the limits of the farmers' willingness to step up productivity per acre, lower costs and pass on the result of those lower costs in the shape of lower selling prices. Anybody who pretends that there is no potential field of conflict between the industrial worker and his wife and family and the interests of the farmers does an ill-service to the study of this subject.
  There is a very wide field of potential conflict between the industrial worker, who depends for his livelihood on the production of goods which are in competition with goods from other countries in international markets, and the agricultural community. The price of these goods largely depends on the cost of the contents of the housewives' shopping basket, and that in turn depends very largely on the cost of home produced food. Let us make no mistake about this; when we sit down with Dillon of the Irish Republic and Peron of the Argentine, as I have with both, about the first thing that they say, no matter what commodity is discussed is, "How much are you paying the British farmer?" That becomes
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  the yardstick of the argument. Therefore, the price paid to the British farmer is not only felt in the matter of the food we produce here at home, but it also reflects itself in the price we have to pay overseas.
  I have said before, and it is necessary to repeat it, that this industry has been the favourite son of the national economy for a good many years now. For 12 years it has not had to fear its ancient enemy, foreign competition. It has enjoyed a completely sheltered market. It has enjoyed guaranteed prices for unlimited quantities of produce. Never in the history of this country has any industry enjoyed such a privileged position. Furthermore, in the four years from 1948–49 to 1951–52 there has been a subsidy to stimulate production and, it was hoped, lower prices. Together with that subsidy was provided a subsidy so that the pledge of guaranteed markets for unlimited quantities might be honoured. Those two subsidies amounted to £1,200 million, £320 million of which was to stimulate production, efficiency and an increased acreage yield. The remainder, as I have said, was to stabilise the cost of living and to honour the pledge about guaranteed markets for produce. That total represents £300 million a year.
  I do not know what £300 million represents in Income Tax—I suppose it is about 2s. 6d. in the £—but £1,200 million in four years is an awful lot of money. I have got a very healthy respect for money. I find it a most inconvenient thing to be without. Therefore, I believe that if this nation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke said, is to stand on its own feet and, looking across the Atlantic, say, "Thank you, Uncle Sam. we can manage now," we have got to have a healthy respect for money, and certainly we have to make sure that we are getting the very fullest value for every penny that we spend.
  Can that be said after the lavish financial assistance that this industry has had? There has been an expenditure of £1,200 million in four years over and above what housewives have paid, but has the return in terms of efficiency, productivity in acreage yields, yields of milk per cow and so on been commensurate with the spending? If we sit down and analyse the figures only one answer can be arrived at. The results

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  have been very meagre and very disappointing indeed.
  Mr. Paget: My hon. Friend does not seem to realise the essential economy of this industry when he displays the arguments of Bright and Cobden. There can be low cost agriculture at a low level of production, or high cost agriculture at a high level of production. We cannot have high production at low cost in England. The amount produced by agriculture has come fully up to the plan which was made at the time the expenditure was undertaken. We have produced what we planned to produce for that expenditure, and it will not be got at any less price because high level production here is not economical in the world sense of the word.
  Mr. Evans: That is the point of view of my hon. and learned Friend, which I have no doubt he will be able to put for the second time if he catches Mr. Speaker's eye. I do not accept the argument of my hon. and learned Friend.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke spoke of the increased profits from farming in the past few years. I was not able to accept his arithmetic. Perhaps he went to a night school, and cannot add up during the day. The increase since 1937 has been 480 per cent.—£56 million in 1937, £183 million in 1947, £325 million last year. That compares with 175 per cent. increase in wages and salaries. I do not mind what the farmers have, provided the return is commensurate with what is doled out.
  Let us take the British yields in oats and wheat and barley and compare them with those of the Danes, who produce in conditions of similar climate and rainfall, with no difference in the soil. Last year the production per acre of those three commodities was less in this country by about 44 per cent. in the one instance, 46 per cent. in the second and 48 per cent. in the third. I have the exact figures supplied by the Danish Embassy, but I do not want to take time giving them precisely. In addition, Danish cows are still producing over 100 gallons each more per year, while the milk is of a very much higher quality.
  These are the comparisons which we are forced to make. It is not as though this industry were standing on its own
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  two feet, running the risk of going bankrupt, with all the social stigma attached. It is in a unique position and we, as the custodians of the public purse, must ask these questions. I hope someone will tell me tonight why it is that the Danes, with no advantage of soil or climate or wages—the wage of an agricultural worker in Denmark is £1 2s. 9d. a day—can produce so much more efficiently and at so much smaller cost than ourselves.
  At the present time British farmers are getting 74 per cent. more for their milk than the Danish farmers. The Danish farmers are still supplying us with 1 lb. of butter for less money than we pay the British farmer for a gallon of milk. I want to know why it is. It is no good anybody on the benches opposite or on these benches thinking that this industry can be guaranteed the present high prices and guaranteed markets for unlimited quantities "come hell or high water," because it cannot. In the last resort, we are a great industrial nation and 93 per cent. of our people have no contact with agriculture. They depend for their livelihood on the competitive force that the industries with which they are associated can deploy in international markets. It is absurd for anybody to think that this nation would stand by and see these markets lost because of the high cost of British food.
  Therefore, I say that the future of the industry depends on the industry itself. It would be the greatest mistake in the world for the N.F.U. leaders, in the pursuit of apparent security, to destroy real security. That is the danger, this belief that somehow, some Government, this or the preceding one, can make certain the future prosperity of this industry at present prices. It is beyond the power of any British Government to do that. So I hope that the N.F.U. leaders will turn to the question of increased efficiency and productivity.
  As I said at Bournemouth on Whit Tuesday, when it comes to pennies from Whitehall or marketing boards designed to sell crab apples at the price of Cox's Orange Pippins, the boys are there with their shoes shined, but when it comes to productivity one would think it was a naughty word. I want to know why the British fruit farmers want protection against Canadian apples which cost more

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  to pick, grade and pack and then have to be sent by rail across the American continent and afterwards shipped 3,000 miles across the Atlantic. Why does the British fruit farmer want that protection?
  Mr. W. F. Deedes: Would the hon. Gentleman allow me to answer that question? They only want protection where the products are subsidised by the Government.
  Mr. Evans: I have yet to know that the Canadian Government subsidises the production of apples.
  We are pursuing a policy which needs to be carefully examined, and the best thing that could happen in the interests of this industry and of the country would be an inquiry into it. I am far from satisfied, and the urban population is far from satisfied. In this request I am looking for a good deal of support from hon. Gentlemen on the benches opposite because with them inquiries are in fashion. The Government have ordered an inquiry into the publicly-owned London Transport and into the National Health Service and 122 hon. Gentlemen on that side of the Committee want an inquiry into the publicly-owned coal industry. I make no complaint. I believe that if we are to get back on our own two feet we must examine all our policies with the same icy detachment with which a surgeon examines X-ray plates. I suggest that the need for an inquiry into this industry is greater than in the case of any of the others.
  I agree that the industry has a great part to play, but we are entitled to expect a different psychology on the part of its leaders. I get invitations to talk to farmers from all over the country and whenever I can, I go. I talked to more than 400 farmers at Worcester. We had a grand time. I flung everything at them except the platform I stood on. I have never seen such magnificent fielding—they returned it all. When the night had gone, however, each of us understood where we stood, and I am sure that that was helpful. I went to Guildford and the Guildford Young Farmers put on a show. We had the same rough and tumble down there. I am to go to the University of Wales at Aberystwyth, I have been to Oxford University, and I am invited to Bristol.
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  There is a lot more interest in this subject than the N.F.U. pretend, and there is growing interest. This country is anxious to be fair to the farmer and most anxious to see a strong, stable, self-reliant, prosperous agricultural industry in Britain—and that permanently. I repeat that this depends on the industry itself. Here I think the N.F.U. leaders have gone a little astray. It has sometimes seemed to me that defects of temperament and faulty mental attitudes have led to a situation in which they are psychologically divorced from the main stream of our national life. They seem to have one philosophy—"Gimme, gimme."
  I suggest that if they got out into the countryside, preaching the story of how to make every acre yield more at less cost, a rapid and dramatic change could be anticipated in the productivity of British agriculture. I deem this to be a not unreasonable request. After all, the mendicant friars of the Middle Ages went out and did a little preaching occasionally; they were not always at the tap. The rewards would be very great, because to see British farmers standing on their own two feet a couple of hours a day would be a sight for sore eyes. We should all feel so proud and thrilled and excited that I am sure the leaders of the industry would be pleased.
  I believe that the necessity for an inquiry into the moribund condition of this industry becomes more apparent every day. We have done everything we can to give the industry confidence. We have done everything we can to enable it to become more efficient, to bring greater acreage yields and more and better milk per cow. We have done all these things, but the return has not been commensurate.
  The Minister once said that the industry enjoys virtual self-government. Self-government means the assumption of responsibility as well as the enjoyment of privilege. We have gone to great lengths. Each of the three political leaders of the Ministry of Agriculture is a farmer. I think that they are admirable men but, were they the most saintly men of our time, I am not at all sure that it is entirely desirable; but such has been the desire to give this industry confidence that that is what has been done. We have the N.F.U. and the Ministry of Agriculture conducting negotiations

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  which result in the transference of £1,200 million in four years from the pockets of the taxpayers to the pockets of the farmers, because that is what has happened. At the head of these negotiations representing the nation—the taxpayer—is the Ministry of Agriculture the three political heads of which are all farmers.
  I make no aspersions, although I have sometimes doubted the constitutional propriety of this. Each of the three men enjoys my confidence and respect. I make no personal aspersions, but this is the extent to which the nation has gone in its desire to give the industry confidence and to encourage it to go all-out to increase efficiency and productivity.
  It is because I believe that the results achieved so far are quite meagre in relation to the sacrifices made by the nation so that this industry could be sustained, and because I believe that we as a nation are coming back into a much more competitive era and that it will not be possible to maintain guaranteed markets for unlimited quantities at present prices in all circumstances—it is for these reasons and in the interests of the industry itself not less than in the interests of the nation, that I say that an inquiry is long overdue.
  7.14 p.m.
  Sir Robert Boothby: It is some considerable time since I troubled the Committee, and I crave the indulgence of hon. Members for the speech of a "maiden knight," if I may put it in that way. I listened with great interest, as I always do, to the speech of the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans). I shall be dealing with one or two of the things he said in the course of my remarks. I should, however, like to say that when he points out the advantages that agriculture has enjoyed as an industry since the war, he should remember that both the coal industry and the steel industry have enjoyed exactly comparable and similar conditions. Both have been entirely free from any kind of foreign competition. That is by the way.
  This debate is important, because I believe that the economics—
  Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas: Will the hon. Gentleman indicate what subsidies are received by the other two industries he mentioned?
  Sir R. Boothby: I was referring, and I said so, to the absence of foreign competition. They have bad no foreign competition of any sort. I am prepared to say that, on balance, if there was an investigation into both the coal industry and the agricultural industry in this country, we should find that of the two the agricultural industry was more efficient. I really do believe that to be true.
  I was saying that I believe that the economics of the second half of the 20th Century will revolve very largely round food. As against the hon. Member for Wednesbury, I believe that there is a grave and an increasing world shortage of food which will not disappear in our time. Therefore, I think that there will be guaranteed prices for food in unlimited quantities for ever, as far as we are concerned; but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that, if we give them, we want the maximum efficiency on the part of the producer in return.
  There is to my mind no shadow of doubt that the surest and safest road to economic salvation for this country in the next 10 to 15 years is an increased production of food. We can argue as we like about balances of payments, convertibility and the rest of the economic nostrums with which we are being deaved, as we say in Scotland. Here is a clear issue: should we or should we not produce more food? To that question there can only be one answer.
  At present it takes nearly half the earnings of our exporting industries to pay for our imports of food and drink alone. Nearly half of our total exports are used to pay for our imports of food and drink. This is all wrong. That being said, let us have a look at the achievement. Despite what the hon. Member for Wednesbury said, it is considerable. We are now producing more than double our pre-war output of coarse grains on about a 75 per cent. increase in acreage. That in itself is remarkable. We are producing all the milk we require, 100 per cent. We are producing 61 per cent. more potatoes than we did pre-war, and 55 per cent. more sugar beet, off acreages increased by only 37 per cent. and 22 per cent., respectively. That looks to me like a considerable increase in productivity.
  The gross value of our agricultural output, our output of food, for 1952–53

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  was £1,120 million. If home production had been back during that year at the pre-war level, we should have had to spend another £400 million on imports of food from abroad, or suffered a very serious shortage of food for our people. The sum of £400 million is sizeable. It would have made a marked difference to the national balance of payments.
  These are considerations we ought to bear in mind. On the other hand, beef, veal, mutton lamb and pig meat production has increased by only 7 per cent. That is the bad side of the picture, as I see it. The fact remains that, with an index of net output standing at 50 per cent. above pre-war, we are still producing only half our total food requirements. That is not enough.
  We may reasonably expect under the existing policies, and the progress we are making which the Minister of Agriculture outlined, to increase this to 60 per cent. and two-fifths over the next three years; but that still will not be enough. In my view we have to double our prewar production over the next decade. This will involve a total expansion of current output by 40 per cent.
  Therefore I say, and I say it with emphasis and with no apology, that the present targets of the Government for agricultural production are too low. I would also agree with the hon. Member for Wednesbury that there is no cause for complacency. Despite the enormous increase in mechanisation in this country since the war—a far greater comparable increase than has taken place in any other country—the contrast between our standards of farming and those of Denmark and Holland is at once disturbing and challenging, and we may as well face it. Both of these countries have a higher head of livestock per acre, and they have a better average quality—for example, Danish pigs—and yield, for example, Dutch cows.
  This comparison is, admittedly, not quite fair, and I put this point to the hon. Member for Wednesbury in regard to Denmark and Holland. First, the economies of those two countries have been built round the farm; whereas the economy of this country has been built up round the factory. We are an industrial country, and they are concentrated and specialised agricultural countries.
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  Second, they have been producing primarily for export; and third, they have concentrated on one or two items, which they do superbly. Therefore, it is not really quite fair to make the comparison between Danish farming and British farming, because the conditions, not of soil, nor of climate, but of environment and of economic policy, are so entirely different.
  Denmark and Holland are fundamentally agricultural countries. They have built up their whole national life on the basis of the farm. Our national life, for better or worse, has been built up on the basis of the factory, which makes a very sharp difference.
  Mr. S. N. Evans: In the matter of the dairy side of the industry, that is quite true, but would the hon. Member apply the same argument to cereals—to wheat, barley and oats? Is there really any reason why they should be getting 50 per cent. more per acre?
  Sir R. Boothby: The argument is not quite the same, because fundamentally and primarily they are agricultural communities and they devote everything—all their energies, their capital, their skill and all their lives—to that single purpose. I think it would be found, however, that there was a greater disparity between their milk production and ours, than between their wheat production and ours.
  The need for increased production of meat in this country is at the moment paramount. Fortunately, arable stock farming remains the basis of British agriculture. I am not one of those who advocate mountaineering in search of food. I have never thought that that was a very good economic policy. Speaking personally, I am not very keen on mountaineering in any shape or form. It may be exhilarating for some, but I find it exhausting and rather boring.
  There is, however, room for a considerable further expansion of the production of animal feed in this country; and, therefore, of animals, on marginal and hill land. I reckon that we could bring into use an additional two to three million acres without undue cost. In this business of reclaiming marginal land it is the cost that has to be borne in mind; and we must never forget it, because sometimes a lot of nonsense is talked about it. But

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  I reckon that we could do that, and I think that Lord Lovat has shown that it can be done and how it can be done. He has done a great job in the Highlands of Scotland.
  Nevertheless, the key to this problem of meat production does not lie in marginal land. It lies, in my opinion, with livestock and leys. This means that the plough must be taken round the farm to the same extent in England as it is in Scotland. I wish that I could get some of the English farmers and Members of Parliament to come up to Angus, Forfar and Aberdeenshire and look at the farms there, and see how farming really should be done. Some Americans who came up there the other day rightly said, "This is the best farming in the world." Livestock and leys, take the plough round the farm, and leave nothing out. That is what they do up there.
  Despite the fact that grass management has become almost an exact science, the English particularly, and, I am afraid, some parts of Scotland also, carry millions of acres of poor grazing; and they go on feeding to dairy cows concentrates which should be going into the production of bacon and eggs. Nobody can deny that, because it is profoundly true. The answer is to improve the quality of permanent pasture by the application of scientific methods where this can be done; and to bring the rest of it under the corrective influence of the plough, which in my opinion is not sufficiently done, especially in England, although I do not want to make a national issue out of it.
  If we do that, we could, in my view, carry several million more head of sheep and cattle; and increase the production of meat over present levels by 50 per cent. within a reasonable period of time. There is no other single thing in the domestic field that any Government could do which would be as beneficial to this country as a whole.
  It requires a new approach on the part of the Government, on the part of the farmers and, last but not least, on the part of the public. I would say this to the Government—I do not need to say it to my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, because he knows it as well as I do, but no harm
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  is done in reminding him of solid truths about which he and I have agreed for many years past. My hon. Friend knows as well as I do that livestock production is a long-term investment, demanding, above all else, confidence and a sense of security. It is less profitable than straight arable farming, and it requires more capital than dairy fanning.
  The hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) gave some figures, which were quite interesting. I would add to them only these. It has been estimated that to produce cattle now costs between £40 and £45 a head and sheep about £5 a head, as against wheat at only £15 an acre. This means that an additional million beef cattle and five million more sheep would need an extra working capital amounting to about £60 million. That is a lot of money, and if we add to this the need for further fixed capital investment it becomes clear—on this I take issue with the hon. Member for Wednesbury, who spoke before me—that if we are to get the meat production which we require, massive additional capital investment in this industry is required. It has got to be done. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
  I know of no more rewarding field, and I am slightly disturbed by the fact that in recent years there has been a definite tendency for agriculture to receive a declining share of the total national resources devoted to fixed investment. The banks have done a good job, but they cannot do it all. I suggest in all seriousness to the Government that, so far as credits are concerned, something more than the Mortgage Corporation is now required.
  The Government ought to examine seriously the possibility of setting up something in the nature of an Agricultural Credits Guarantee Department, similar to the Export Credits Guarantee Department. Exports and agriculture are the two most vital things in our economic life. The Export Credits Guarantee Department has been doing a magnificent job, largely behind the scenes, in stimulating our exports. We know far too little about it in the House of Commons. Every time one investigates what they do, at the practical level, one comes across fresh examples of contracts which we have obtained and carried out and paid for, which never could have

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  been done without the Export Credits Guarantee Department. I believe that an Agricultural Credits Guarantee Department on a comparable scale would do equally good work.
  My second suggestion is that the Government should set up a Meat Marketing Board, as soon as they decide to replace the present method of marketing meat through the Ministry of Food, with wide powers and effective consumer safeguards. They also should have a comprehensive slaughter-house policy for the nation as a whole, which they have not got at present. They should provide adequate refrigeration facilities for summer-killed animals, because one of the reasons why the farmers are in a mess over this is that they do not at present have the refrigeration facilities for summer-killed animals. Finally, I think they should have a price structure which will not only maintain the present rewards for quality production but also ensure that the farmer who has to keep his beasts through the winter will have a reasonable return when he sells them in the spring.
  I now turn to the farmers, having dealt with the Government, although I have not quite finished with the Government and will return to them before I sit down. Farmers must now concentrate on the conversion of the inherent wealth of their land into animal products. They have not done that sufficiently since the war. They must provide every year an increasing number of store cattle for fattening, as supplies from Ireland diminish. They have been diminishing in the last two or three years and will go on diminishing, and we must therefore produce our own stores and fatten them here. Farmers must stop killing calves a few days old and sending them to the potted meat factories. They must grow every animal suitable for beef to the best economic weight and age.
  I now turn to the public, having spoken of the Government and the farmers. The public must learn to think of meat not only in terms of prime beef and canned ham, of which their consumption at exorbitant prices is absolutely fantastic. They are consuming all sorts of fancy meats from cans and tins and if they cannot get them, or prime beef, they
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  seem to think they are not getting any meat at all. They must divert their exclusive attention from canned ham and prime beef and direct it to mutton, to pork and, last but not least, to veal. Veal is not sufficiently consumed in this country, but it is consumed to a very large extent on the Continent of Europe and, when well cooked, is exceedingly good, and compares favourably with any other meat.
  I now come to a rather difficult passage of my speech, but I must say a word on the subject of marketing. In this country we handle 40 per cent. of the world's trade in food, and we continue to do so even after the war. We are, therefore, a controlling factor in world price stability. Our basic objective must surely be to combine maximum stability with maximum freedom. To the primary producer, with the long time-lag between his costs of production and the sale of his products, violent price fluctuations are deadly. Nothing could do him more harm; even if prices go up sharply that does not do him any good. In agriculture there are wide seasonal fluctuations—caused by conditions, weather, and so on. Any policy, national or international, which budgets for the world's food needs must therefore, give rise to periodic surpluses; and these must not be flung without thought on ordinary markets and break those markets, but be disposed of in an orderly manner. So my plea is for orderly marketing both abroad in the international field, and at home.
  Before the war I remember oats at 14s. a quarter. I remember when our Scottish farmers were on their backs under the flail of foreign vested interests and speculators, and the long years when prime Scotch beef was under the hammer at Smithfield at prices far below the cost of production. The Joint Under-Secretary of State will also remember that very well, and will agree with me when I say that whatever theoretical views we may have about Socialism, capitalism, bulk purchase, private enterprise, or whatever it may be, Scottish farmers are never going to allow that to happen again. Never—they are never again to be at the mercy of those foreign speculators at Smithfield Market—never. We will march down—if ever that happens—with our claymores and burn Smithfield to the

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  ground; and it will not be the first time it has been burned to the ground.
  I am well aware that on the subject of bulk purchase I am regarded by my party as something of a heretic, but I have been absolutely solid and consistent on it for a quarter of a century. There can be no doubt that the bulk purchase policy of the Ministry of Food has given a considerable measure of stability to world food prices, and a considerable measure of prosperity to primary producers all over the world. We have to face that fact, and it should not be a party political question but a question to be considered coldly and objectively—under the microscope as the hon. Member opposite suggested—and strictly with regard to its intrinsic merits.
  My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) will remember that in the 1920's F. L. McDougall of Australia, the late Francis Blundell and he and I, under the stimulus of Lord Bruce—then Mr. Bruce, Prime Minister of Australia—seriously considered the possibility of establishing an Imperial Wheat Pool. Mr. Bruce actually went the length of advocating a meat purchasing organisation, and we nearly fainted, thinking that it was such a daring idea. But it was not so stupid as all that, and we went on batting away and, 16 years ago, I said to the farmers of Perth:
  "We do not take kindly to co-operation in this country. But that is our misfortune rather than our gain. Look at the Meat Boards of Australia and New Zealand. Why should we not have a Meat Producers' Board in this country? It is the only way in which we can obtain reasonable prices for our beasts, full value for their by-products, and minimum overhead costs."
  That was 16 years ago. Now the Ministry of Food is on the way out, I ask: what is to replace it? I suggest two things. First, international commodity agreements for basic products. Second, marketing boards at home. I understand it was the decision of the Ministry of Food not to sign the Wheat Agreement the other day. I do not dispute the wisdom of the Government, although I think it was a pity. We must have a wheat agreement. We cannot go on outside it. We are too important for that. We can and should fight for our rights, but I am not sure that 5 cents is worth such a tremendous fight as all this, and
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  sooner or later we must negotiate a wheat agreement. The same goes for sugar. International commodity agreements and marketing boards with trading powers are indeed the only answer to the disappearance of the Ministry of Food.
  Here I am glad to see my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove, because this country owes these commodity boards almost entirely to him. He started them and established them, and they were a tremendous success. My only complaint was that he did not go further and faster and apply them to meat and oats whilst the going was good. Whenever he applied them they were a great success. Look at the experience of the Milk Marketing Board. Above all they make for efficiency and, not for contraction, but for expansion. Their effect is to stabilise output, prices and consumer supplies at the highest level consistent with effective demand; to give the producer a sense of underlying security; and to make possible a certain long-term stability of prices which in an industry like this is absolutely vital.
  The call for a practical agricultural policy is not unjustified. It should set new production targets designed to double our pre-war output and give the necessary priority to meat. We have not done either of these things, and have not yet declared our intention that meat production at this moment is of paramount importance. We should lay down concrete proposals for the preservation of good agricultural land at all costs. Keep the Air Ministry out, keep the Ministry of Housing out and keep the Ministry of Works out; do not let them touch it if it is good land. We cannot afford that. This is more important than anything else at present. We should provide for a marketing system based on commodity boards, and also adequate slaughter and cold-storage facilities. We should make capital available at reasonable rates. I really do not think the hullabaloo over an additional 1 per cent. interest rate is justified. After all, it is only a tenner in £1,000, and that will not make or break anybody. But capital must be made available, at reasonable interest rates, for the development of marginal land, the equipment of farms and the improvement of the fertility of the soil.

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  Finally, we should give to the efficient young stock farmers the chance to make good. Today they require to be competent practical scientists as well as skilled factory managers. There are some very good young men coming through the agricultural colleges who would do very well if only they could get on to the land. But they have not the opportunity of getting there. I hate the idea of turning farmers out of their farms, and I think that in their hearts most hon. Members feel the same. But we must all admit that we cannot afford to allow a really inefficient farmer to waste valuable land in this country today. The need for increased productivity is too desperate.
  The agricultural executive committees have been criticised. I do not think the present system is working very well, and one of the reasons is that it takes such an interminable time to get anything done. There is undoubtedly some over-security of tenure in this country. It takes months or even years to remove a really inefficient farmer, particularly if he is a tenant farmer, even though there be adequate compensation provided. The present system is too cumbersome and slow, as well as being rather unfair; and needs to be looked at again. I hope the Minister will do it.
  Lastly, our agricultural policy should be possessed of a dynamic quality and informed by a sense of urgency without which we cannot hope to succeed; and without which there can be no hope of maintaining our present standard of living for which increased food production is the certain recipe, and I think almost the only recipe.
  7.42 p.m.
  Mr. M. Philips Price: The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby) is always very stimulating, and I agree especially with that part of his remarks which concerned marketing. He gave credit to his right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), a former Minister of Agriculture, and he is quite right to do so. But I would remind him of the work done by the late Lord Addison in connection with marketing boards—
  Sir R. Boothby: I forgot him.
  Mr. Price: I remember being a member of the Standing Committee which dealt with the Bill introduced by Lord Addison in 1930 and part of 1931.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) made some not very helpful remarks regarding farmers' profits, and my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) also referred to the profit which farmers are said to be making. Although the figures may be correct according to the Inland Revenue, a very large part of that money has to go to financing the ordinary day-to-day work of the farm, and to the provision of equipment, livestock and so forth. In other words, much of the profit made on the farm today—as those who have to deal with farming know to their cost—has to be ploughed back to a very large degree. Those of us who have to deal with these problems realise that if we are to raise the level of production in the country beyond the figure of 60 per cent. it will involve more finance. Incidentally, I feel that the Government are a little conservative in their figure in this respect, and that production could be raised by more than 60 per cent.
  I do not know if instructions have been given to the banks to be as forthcoming as possible regarding schemes which potential creditors may put to them for extended farming operations. The Government will have to look very carefully at this matter. If the banks cannot meet the demand some other method must be found; some scheme such as the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, which will supplement the work of the banks.
  I would agree that there is still a good deal of farming which cannot be called bad farming but which is only a moderate type of farming. That is a great difficulty today. There are very good farmers and a few very bad farmers, but there are also a lot of mediocre farmers who do not realise what a revolution has resulted from the application of science and technology to agriculture. I have witnessed the enormous improvements which can be effected by the application of selective weed killers, for example. By that means the dock and the thistle, which are among the worst pests on arable land, have been almost eliminated.
  I have also seen the immense change which has come about in the handling of

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  farmyard manure. In the old days it was necessary to employ half a dozen men for weeks in shifting the manure in the spring. Today, by means of the lifting machinery attached to tractors, three or four men can do the job in a few days, which reduces the cost of farmyard manure by nearly 50 per cent.
  But these methods are not practised generally and agricultural committees must accelerate action on the part of farmers who do their best, but who have not yet realised the immense changes which have come about thanks to scientific investigation and discovery. I believe that these committees are doing admirable work, and, of course, it is done voluntarily. I occasionally receive letters from farmers and landowners in my constituency who are being pressed to do this or that by the agricultural committee because the committee are of opinion that things are not up to the requisite standard.
  If agriculture is to fulfil its task in the near future there must be price stability, and farmers must be able to look ahead with confidence. I remember the time when farmers worried about what would be the selling price if they produced one kind of crop or fattened up certain animals. That worry has been removed thanks to the Agriculture Act which my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) piloted through this House. But it would appear that the Government are now in the process of modifying the provisions of that Act. They have introduced an element of doubt and uncertainty about the price mechanism and about the method of working the Act.
  We have only to look at the agricultural Press to see evidence of this element of doubt and uncertainty and to know what the farmers are thinking. The great question to my mind is how farmers can be guaranteed prices under the Agriculture Act and at the same time sell competitively on a free market. The Government seem to be toying with the idea of doing that. Perhaps there are ways; I do not know. Clause 4 of the Agriculture Act, 1947, foreshadows methods by which a freer market may be possible, but stability maintained by deficiency payments and marketing schemes.
  This opens up a very important question. Deficiency payments may be a means of stabilising the market. Wheat,
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  oats and similar products depend for their prices upon the world market and are the very type of product which lend themselves to deficiency payment schemes. I hope that something like the Wheat Act, 1932, will be introduced again which would put a bottom to the market, which now appears to have none, if we are not to have uncertainty for some time. I wish the Government would get busy about doing it. The Minister did not tell us very much, but no doubt he has many interests to consider and negotiate with.
  Mr. J. B. Godber: The hon. Gentleman was saying just now that there is no bottom to the market for cereals. Surely he knows that there is a guaranteed price for the 1953 harvest under the interim scheme?
  Mr. Price: There is an interim scheme which is in operation. I did not mean to convey any other impression, and if I did so I was wrong; but we want something much better than the present interim arrangement, something more permanent. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree.
  There are other products for which marketing schemes are essential. The National Farmers' Union has come in for a great deal of criticism by my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury who talked about it as if it was divorced from actuality. I happen to know something about the National Farmers' Union. I have been a member of it for many years. The people who sit in Bedford Square have all been elected from the county branches and the smaller branches, and they are all people who have got their ears to the ground. They have to listen to the points of view of the member in the parishes and the country districts.
  I know that they are very interested indeed in re-establishing marketing boards, which have been largely pushed into the background over recent years. The Government's action over eggs, for instance, has been too precipitate. They have abolished the fixed price of eggs. We want an egg marketing scheme, but the Government went bald-headed for a scheme to abolish the fixed price and set up a temporary arrangement. They did not inform anybody, not even the National Farmers' Union, and up to now we do not know what is going to happen. I listened very carefully to the Minister to

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  hear whether he had anything to say about an egg marketing scheme. Perhaps the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will fill up some of the gaps in the Minister's speech and give an assurance that an egg marketing scheme is on the way. We have heard rumours, but there is nothing one can be sure about.
  In regard to milk, the Milk Marketing Board was shorn of many of its powers under wartime conditions. Is it to get back the powers it once had? How will the prices be arranged? Shall we continue our present fixed prices, or will there be deficiency payments similar to those proposed for the Wheat Marketing Board? In the case of milk there is again an element of uncertainty which I wish the Government would do something to disperse, because it is causing a great deal of trouble in the industry.
  Meat, too, is an example. I agree with much that was said by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East. Meat is another aspect in respect of which a marketing scheme is required. The Deputy President of the National Farmers' Union was reported in the agricultural papers as saying that three-quarters of the movement of livestock could be dispensed with as being much too wasteful and that one-third of the collecting centres were redundant. He said there was much double handling and unnecessary movement of the animals to marketing centres. This condemns the present system and makes it imperative for us to replace it by something different.
  The National Farmers' Union has a marketing scheme which has been considered by the county and parish branches, and in the main has had support. One can say that it is the N.F.U. scheme. It may not be exactly one that the Government of the day can accept in all its details, but the general principle is sound. It is something on the lines of what we were gradually working up to before the war. We had the Livestock Marketing Act in 1936, and the bacon marketing Acts just before the war. We were working out a system of central abattoirs in order to have a more secure market for meat and to eliminate waste.
  I would say a word about the production grants which are paid out by
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  the Ministry for the encouragement of the use of fertilisers and the feeding of calves and as ploughing-up grants. These come mostly from the global sum agreed to in the Price Review. These are the soundest methods. They help the good farmer. By reducing the price of fertilisers their use on a big scale is encouraged. The farmer is encouraged to rear the largest number of calves possible.
  The only doubt that I have is about the ploughing-up grants. We should like to know rather more about them. The fact is that many farmers who have been receiving these grants would have ploughed up their land anyhow, because it is part of the policy of taking the plough round the farm, which is the only sound and sensible thing to do these days. They do not need the subsidy for this purpose. The people who need the subsidy are the farmers on the marginal land. Payment of the subsidy to them may just tip the scale in favour of ploughing up and making it worth their while to do so. We ought to know to what extent this subsidy has gone to that type of farmer and how much of it has gone to the farmer who does not need it and who is not on marginal land. If the Joint Parliamentary Secretary can give us any indication of that, it will be very useful.
  As to calf rearing, I am not satisfied that everything is being done to prevent the unnecessary slaughter of calves, I understand that in the big industrial areas of the north the dairy farmers who retail milk to the towns have no facilities for rearing calves in their dairy herds, and the calves are slaughtered. I understand that a considerable number are being slaughtered in areas round Manchester, Liverpool and the big cotton towns and industrial cities of the north.
  Is it not possible to have those calves removed to the great livestock rearing areas of Wales, the highlands of Cumberland and parts of Yorkshire? I wish the Minister would look into that and consider whether anything can be done by Government action to supplement the efforts of the private trade, which does not perhaps do what it might in this matter.
  If we are to secure this 60 per cent. increase in production and more—I think that we can do more—there must be security in the form of deficiency pay-

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  ments, marketing schemes and adequate financial resources which will enable the farmer to do his duty, as I am sure he wants to do.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. George Lambert: I hope that the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his remarks, but I want to keep my speech as short as possible, as several of my hon. Friends hope to be called.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture said that there were various hindrances to the production of food. He mentioned rabbits, pigeons and crows. I should like to add: forms and Whitehall. During the course of his speech my right hon. Friend emphasised the importance of growing grass. Whitehall seem to have planned very well when they decided that Bilston high-grade basic slag is not to be sent to Devonshire, the county which grows better grass than any other county in the country.
  When I saw this year's June return I thought that the Minister was continuing his policy of reducing the number of forms and making them more simple. I was delighted when it was announced that the quarterly return were only to be completed by one-third of the farmers, but it seems a pity that the return is now to be much more complicated. I urge the Minister to examine it carefully and see whether the number of questions cannot be reduced, because in each of the last three years the number has increased; it is now 145.
  The various subsidies for attested herds, ploughing-up and calf rearing are all valuable, but in order to receive them the farmer has to keep records and fill in more forms. I suggest to the Minister that his experts could obtain the information about the number of calves or attested cattle from the December and June returns. It is probably all there if they look for it. Or, if not, these forms could be slightly modified so that the information could be made easily available.
  I am afraid that another potential hindrance to production will be the shortage of labour. It is very frightening when one realises that we are losing men farm workers at the rate of around 10,000 a year. The right hon. Gentle-
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  man the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), whom we were all delighted to see back here this afternoon, stressed the importance of marginal land. But surely it is not wise to spend money and materials on increasing the production from marginal land if good fertile land is to go out of production due to the shortage of labour.
  In this connection it is interesting to recall what the President of the Royal Agricultural Society said at Gloucester in 1853:
  "It was now their very pleasing duty to retain the energetic, the active and the industrious by increased comforts, improved cottages close to their work, etc., so as to render the home of his father more attractive to the labourer than the gold fields of Australia or the increasing wages of the manufacturing districts."
  Today I do not think that it is so much a question of increasing wages as the lack of amenities in rural areas, the lack of buses, water and electricity.
  We in the South-West have a very difficult problem with regard to electricity. The South-Western Area Board are alive to the problem and are doing all that they can to bring electricity to the rural areas as fast as they can. But we have a long way to go, as only one in three of the farms has main electricity. To put it another way, 20,000 farms are without it, as are 45,000 other premises. But this is the rub. In December, 1951, the whole of the South-West could have been electrified for £10 million; today it would cost £17 million, or just half of what was spent on the Groundnuts Scheme. We all welcome the very large increase in the amount that is to be spent on rural electricity, but I have a feeling that in the South-West the cost of bringing the main electricity to the farms will be prohibitive and will bring many schemes to a stop.
  I should like the Minister to tell us whether it would be possible to grant a capital subsidy for the provision of electricity. This is already done for water and drainage, and it can be done in some parts of the country under the Hill Farming Act. Surely the time is now ripe for areas where there is a shortage of labour, where the land is good and where a great deal more food can be produced, to enable those areas to have mains electricity and for the Government to pay, say, half the cost not only for farms but

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  also for the workers' cottages. I believe that if we can provide better amenities in the countryside we shall have gone a very long way to preventing the continual drain of skilled labour from our land.
  8.11 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: I gathered from the opening remarks of the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. Lambert) that he was probably the author of that very crude Tory leaflet which attacked farming from Whitehall. However, I later came to agree with two important parts of his speech—not the first part, but that portion which dealt with the importance of labour. I agree with him that the position is extremely serious. In fact, the latest Digest of Statistics which I have—for May, 1953—giving the figures for last year, shows that there was a decline of regular male workers of 23,500. That is a very formidable figure.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned an average decrease of 10,000. Last year the figure was more than 20,000. I wish that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby) had spoken on this matter because I remember that in 1946 he focused opinion in this House on the decrease in manpower in our agricultural industry, and he actually intervened in a main Budget debate to criticise budgetary policy for not giving incentives to attract workers into industry. I remember his speech. He said:
  "Perhaps the most dangerous feature of our internal economic situation is the acute shortage of labour in our two basic industries, agriculture and coalmining; upon which, in the final analysis, the whole national economy depends."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th April, 1946; Vol. 421, c. 2007.]
  He said that there was nothing in the Budget to remedy that situation.
  The position is still the same today. We have had an extremely valuable and interesting report from the Minister, and I was very glad that he concentrated on the productive side of the industry. No doubt, we shall be able to study more carefully some of the interesting figures which he gave for various forms of agricultural production. We all applaud such increases. But whatever increases we have, and whatever arguments we may have about what financial aid shall be given to the industry—whether it be in the form of extended subsidies, or
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  acreage payments, or selective aid for hill farmers, or special credit facilities in relation to matters like electricity—the health and vitality of this industry will in the end depend upon a healthy supply of labour being available.
  I was very glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned this point. I agree that the whole question depends upon amenities in the industry. When I first heard of the decrease and saw the figures for last year I questioned various Ministers. Indeed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to an intervention which I made, said that the decrease in manpower was entirely due to mechanisation. Since then we have found that he was wrong. The Minister himself, at a production conference held in the North of England, at Newcastle, according to a report in the "Farmers' Weekly," said that the call-up is not the real cause of farmers' labour troubles, and he went on to mention that it was a question of providing amenities to attract to the countryside not only the workers as such but the workers' families.
  In that very interesting speech he gave some figures. He said that the average losses of workers were to be found among the 25 to 30 years age group. He went on to suggest that this should be the first item on the agenda of every National Farmers' Union branch. I suggest that it should be the main item on our agenda this evening. I know that it involves many sides of our life with which the Department, whose Estimates we are debating, is not concerned.
  Reference has been made to electricity. We had an interesting debate only the other week on this subject. We were glad to hear that over the last three years there has been a rapid increase in farm connections, the average rate per year having been in the region of 9,000 as compared with the pre-war figure of 2,000 a year. That will help, and by the improvement of amenities of that kind we shall help to attract more people to the countryside. I hope that the Minister and the Government will give this matter urgent consideration. If necessary, some extraordinary action will have to be taken.
  I was interested to hear the speech of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire,

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  East, who made his maiden speech as a knight, and with much of what he said I agreed. I think most hon. Members recognise that we have got to go on increasing our food production. One only has to look at the world food situation and the needs of peoples in other countries to realise that we must go on producing more food. In that world situation lies a guarantee to the farmers. To that extent, I agree very much with the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East. I always felt that he was not a Tory. That is why he is so popular on television. He speaks in the name of the Tory Party, but he often uses Socialist arguments. They are very attractive, and he is a very attractive speaker.
  I am glad he criticised the policy which has been put forward. I know that he will continue to advocate international occasions at the Council of Europe, where planning, which he has stressed on many he speaks so frequently. I was glad that he stressed the need for credit facilities. It may be, as he said, and as was said also by my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans), that the increase in the Bank rate will have no marked effect, but I think it creates a gency, and, no matter what hon. Members general atmosphere of financial strinmay say, if we are to develop our marginal farms and help those farmers who may be receiving assistance under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts there must be easy credit facilities.
  This problem has been mentioned only recently by the Director-General of the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations. I would remind hon. Members of the Tory promise at the last Election. In their dreary pamphlet, the "Agricultural Charter," which was out of date before it was printed, they said, in page 38:
  "Since we wish to encourage new blood in agriculture, and since many farmers will have to undertake an unusually heavy outlay in expanding production and increasing efficiency in the near future, additional credit facilities are needed."
  I would remind hon. Members opposite that this was not just old Tory propaganda. It has been repeated recently. I have here a report of an interesting speech which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made in December, 1952, at a meeting in
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  London. In reply to an argument, he said that he was fully aware of the problems of agricultural credit. He would simply say, without wishing to forestall his Budget, that he would go on examining this question with sympathy. The Chancellor did nothing in his Budget. I put a Question to the Minister today, and he said that he was looking into the question. I know that he is not the master in this matter and that in the end it will depend upon budgetary policy, but so far, since the Conservative Government came into power, nothing has been forthcoming from the point of view of increased credit facilities for farmers, particularly those who are to develop our marginal farms. Indeed, there has been a reversal of that policy.
  The policy pursued has been condemned by the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Sir A. Braithwaite). He quoted figures showing that there had been a policy of restriction. Hon. Members opposite may defend it, but from the point of view of our primary producers it is a wrong policy, and in the end it can only harm food production. I hope that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will be able to give us some indication when that Tory promise, in a Tory document, later repeated by a very responsible Member of his Government, will be fulfilled. I am not hopeful. The Government have set many precedents for promises not having been fulfilled, but on this occasion at least, in this field of agriculture, which is so important to our national effort and our desire to overcome the balance of payments problem, I hope the Minister can say that this matter has had some sympathetic consideration.
  The Minister mentioned production, and another hon. Member opposite mentioned the need to set targets. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire that a target of a 60 per cent. increase in production, to be reached by 1956, as compared with the pre-war position, is not sufficient. I am certain that with a greater effort, increased credit facilities, a greater drive and initiative, and with a firm undertaking on the part of the Government about all the security that was given in the Labour Government's Agriculture Act, 1947, we can reach a target which will virtually double the output of food as compared with the pre-war position.

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  That is why I have tried to impress upon the Minister the need for setting targets for each commodity. I know that he has resisted our advice and our Questions on this matter, but when the main production campaign of the last Administration was launched, after the Act had been brought in, targets were set for various commodities. Although the Minister resists publishing targets or giving figures, he knows that in a very interesting Memorandum—No. 52–40—which he sent out to county and district committees last year, targets were set.
  If one examines that Memorandum, and even its appendix, one can see that targets are virtually set for each district. There is mention of increasing the production and use of grass by 15 per cent. and of raising the yields of tillage crops by 5 per cent. I admit that there are certain generalisations, such as "growing as much wheat as possible," and "all the potatoes that the country wants," and "the need to maintain the present number of dairy cows," etc. Nevertheless, the Minister does ask how far each committee can assess production in their particular locality. He is virtually asking for a form of target. I should have hoped that even now, although he has firmly resisted this plea, he would still consider publishing or setting targets for each commodity. I am certain that it would be to the advantage of all.
  I want to concentrate for a few moments on the Estimates themselves. On page 4 we have items dealing with agricultural education and research. They show that for 1953–54 there will be a decrease of £2,000. Similarly, in respect of agricultural education and grants to colleges there will be a decrease of £2,000. There is also a decrease under the heading of "Agricultural Education: Grants in Aid." I hope that the Minister can give some information about this. It is a pity that any form of agricultural education should be hampered in any way, and I hope that these items do not mean that there will be a cut in any form of agricultural education, or that any students who may have been sent up by a particular authority will be deprived of places in an agricultural college. There is one other item, in connection with the eradication of diseases and the improvement of livestock. Under one heading—"Eradication of diseases of animals"—there is a decrease of
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  £1,566,000. That is a formidable item and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary can give me some information about it.
  I hope that the Minister will resist those sections of his party who would throw aside the main Agriculture Act, 1947. Mention has been made today of a speech made by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland in a debate last February. Obviously the Minister's speech today has really knocked down the case advocated by that junior Minister. Nevertheless, there are certain people in the ranks of the party opposite—as there are in all parts of the House and the country—who would wish British agriculture to go back to the free-for-all system which we had before the war—a "set the people free" philosophy. I hope that hon. Members opposite will support their Minister and hon. Members on this side of the House who brought in the Act of 1947, and resist any such attempts to wreck something which provides a firm foundation for British agriculture.
  If we recognise that here is a piece of legislation which needs to be backed by the various methods I have mentioned, and some which other hon. Members have mentioned, and by effective leadership at the top, which would destroy apathy in the localities by making the county committees really effective agents of the Ministry, then I am certain we can not only increase the targets which have been set by the Government but can go much further towards the more ambitious targets which have been mentioned today.
  8.30 p.m.
  Sir David Robertson: The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) need have no fear of the Conservative Party's attitude towards agriculture. The industry has always had the support of the party, never more so than today or than will be the case in the future, because we are very dependent on agriculture for many reasons, economic and otherwise. I did not hear the speech made by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to which reference has been made, but he is a farmer, and a very good farmer, and the last thing he would wish would be to bring any harm to his colleagues in this, the greatest of all British industries.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) is not in

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  his place because, in his interesting and provocative speech, he spoke of the farmer as the favoured son of Britain for the past 12 years. That may be true, but it was nothing done by any political party which made him the favoured son. It was the hunger of the people. For at least a century before that the farmer was thrown to the dogs. During the Industrial Revolution thousands of farmers went bankrupt and a great number migrated overseas. It is remarkable how farming managed to carry on in those dark days of dumping from overseas, frequently from countries with sweated labour.
  Yet farming survived. I think the British farmer deserves the highest praise. In the recent war, as in the First World War, he buckled to and put up a wonderful show. My right hon. Friend and I served in the same House of Commons and supported the same Government for a long time, and I am glad to see him speaking once again for agriculture. He knows that in those days the British farmer and agricultural worker produced 70 per cent. of the food we were eating—and they were not thinking about profits but about the best possible service they could give to the country. Those who suggest an inquiry into the behaviour of British farmers would be well advised to handle the matter with velvet gloves.
  Nevertheless, we are not producing anything approaching the full quantity of food we need. I congratulate the Minister of Agriculture on giving an account of his very efficient stewardship today. My hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State gave a similar account yesterday in Scottish Grand Committee. But it would be futile for anyone to believe that we are out of danger. No country should have learned more thoroughly the lessons about the need for increased food production than Britain. We had very close risks in two world wars, and thousands of gallant men in the Navy, the Air Force and the Mercantile Marine gave their lives to ensure that food cargoes reached us. That is one lesson we should have learned.
  When people talk of imports, I wonder if anyone would dare suggest that we should falter in any degree in the efforts we are making to increase our
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  home production of food, particularly when world food production barely meets the demand and may not meet it in the future. We have made desperate efforts to sell manufactured goods abroad in order to pay for our imports, and we have done that in a very favourable market since 1945. Now that that great hunger of the post-war period has been met, does anyone imagine that this demand will continue and that there will be a waiting queue of people to buy our manufactured goods? I hope there is, but I very much doubt it. Anyone who has lived as long as I have knows that there are far more buyers' markets than there are sellers' markets, and I think we are in for a very tough time in relation to finding the money to pay for our imports of food and raw materials.
  I said we are not self-supporting, and I have some figures here which may be of interest. The United Kingdom pre-war annual average imports of carcase meat and offal amounted to 2,103,000 tons. In 1952, the last recorded year, the amount was only 1,555,000 tons, a decrease of 548,000 tons below the prewar average, and we have a much bigger population now than we had then. The Argentine figure has gone down by 306,000 tons. That will take some replacement. In the case of Australia it is down by 161,000 tons. New Zealand is the only country exporting to us in excess of pre-war quantities. As usual, she has been glad to come to the rescue. Our home production is down by all that amount after all the efforts and subsidies and injections of capital and so on that have been made.
  We are not out of the wood by a long, long way. Any talk of cutting the prices of farmers, or of cutting their security of tenure, just will not do. This industry has got to be encouraged. Of course, it has got to be efficient. No one will tolerate an incompetent farmer, but it is no good chasing him with a big stick and saying that he has got to take less money or pay his men less money. Incidentally, that is one of the things we must never do.
  I am fully convinced that one of the reasons we have this decline of labour on the land is the lack of opportunity for young men to farm on their own account. I think that is why so

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  many men leave the industry. All are not willing to go on working for ever for someone else. These figures, which reveal a very serious decline in imports, a decline even at this stage of home production, call for even greater effort.
  My object tonight is to aver once again that we must cease that neglect of the forgotten half of Scotland, the Highland area. I shall have a word or two to say in a moment about the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby), whose views differ somewhat from mine on this matter. I want to remind the Committee that there are thousands of acres in the Highlands that are not mountains but good flat land in the valleys. Thousands of acres have reverted to the moor and bog from which they were wrought by a generation of people who could not afford to live and work there in the hideous days of free trade. Even a farmer on the good, rich ground near the big cities had a job to live, but the man in the North of Scotland, faced with penal freight rates, which have always prevailed, and with poor soil had not much of a chance at all. I wonder if we can continue to let that land go back to moor and bog? I do not think we can.
  My hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire referred to the work of Lord Lovat in the Highlands. He has done noteworthy work in producing a very fine herd. The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and his partner, Mr. Stuart, in Glencalum have achieved an even greater performance on very high ground. It took years to come to fruition, and it took a lot of money and effort, but it succeeded. Mr. Hobbs at Fort William has transformed a bog which I well remember when I was a patient in hospital in that locality during the first war. I hardly knew it a year or so ago when I saw the lush grass there, and the cattle. Thirty years previously there was hardly a living thing but pests there.
  But those are the well-known cases. There are many farmers, small farmers, large farmers, and crofters who have reclaimed land which had once been wrought from the heather and the bog and made fertile, but had been allowed
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  to deteriorate again, or who have cultivated such land that had never previously been won for cultivation. There are many crofters in my own area who have reclaimed a couple of acres, and there are farmers who have reclaimed 100 acres, but they all come to a stop for lack of capital. I support what has been said on that all-important subject tonight in speeches from both sides of the Committee, and I earnestly hope that the Government will give consideration to it.
  I put it to the Joint Under-Secretary of State, does he think that Britain can go on any longer leaving the Highland area derelict, a place for wild life? If he does then we had better stop talking about the depopulation. We have reached a disastrously low level already. I do not think that anyone in this House will say that we should arrest our efforts to bring back more land under the plough and to put more cattle on the hills. We were a great cattle country and we carried one-third of our people in the Highland area a century ago. Now we carry less than one-twentieth. That is an unhealthy situation, a situation which calls for correction.
  The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire has said that he did not like mountain farming. I do not suppose any of us from the rich Lowlands of Scotland would like it. But for the sake of the record I must say that I was glad to meet some of the greatest cattlemen in the North of Scotland from the counties of Orkney and Shetland, Caithness, Sutherland, Ross and Cromarty, down to the Morayshire coast—skilled men in the raising of cattle, beasts and sheep—and they said that in the Highlands, in the deer forests, they could raise cattle if they could get security of tenure. We put in many of them during the war because of the nation's need and then threw them out after the war.
  These are the facts. I am not quoting my own opinion, because I am not qualified to give an opinion on that matter, but I assure the Committee that a society, which I believe is called the Northern Pastoral Society, has practical men who know their job, and they say that not only can we reclaim the bogs on the marginal land but we can reclaim on the high lands, too. I earnestly hope that this work of reclamation will go on.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. McNair Snadden): I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government's view is the same as his own. We recognise that our hill areas are the reservoirs from which we draw the raw materials in order to finish the product on the low ground.
  Sir D. Robertson: May I make this gentle observation? The work seems to be going on rather slowly, and I wonder if we can do something to speed it up. It is heart-breaking to go through my constituency and see heather where grass should grow, to see masses of bracken and sheep nosing in among it trying to get a mouthful of food. I accept the assurance of my hon. Friend. I know how wholehearted he is in this matter, but I realise that there is the restraining restriction, necessarily so, of the Treasury in these difficult days. But I have never quite understood why capital restriction had to be imposed, in regard to sterling costs, when people were unemployed who could be producers if we put them to work.
  What are the costs of reclamation? They are mainly those of labour and machines. We want no dollar assistance of any kind. I wonder if we have not got into the habit of talking too much about capital restriction without knowing what it means. I know that it is not only money; it is precious labour, materials, and so on, but we have a good many people unemployed in Scotland—too many. I think that something ought to be done about that.
  I also want to speak about the longdistance fish producer, whose industry produces the bulk of the fish landed in our country. An unsatisfactory situation prevails today. We know that the fishing industry has been guilty of over-fishing. It is not only our men who have done this but also fishermen from other parts of Europe, and it is still going on, and I hope that the Convention which is now sitting will be able to do something. The time is long past when something ought to have been done at Ministerial level. However, large cargoes are being brought in by the latest and best of our modern fleets, and many of them cannot be sold when they reach Hull, Grimsby, Fleetwood and the other fishing ports.
  This great industry produces a quantity of food which is second only to that
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  produced by the agricultural industry, and there is something radically wrong when cargoes which should provide human food have to be made into fish meal. My view is that a change of preservative is necessary. I have long advocated that freezing at sea should be resorted to to ensure that a perfect article is landed and to permit of fish being stored at times of glut and kept until days of scarcity and famine. There is certainly something radically wrong when such large quantities of edible food—it is not condemned food—have to be made into fish meal.
  There is a job here for the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries—to take steps, or to get the White Fish Authority to do so, to deal with the problem. If the problem continues, it will bring that great food-producing industry to an end. Heavy losses are being incurred because the good fish which are caught become unsaleable when they reach the country. Trawler owners are suffering heavy financial losses. I earnestly hope that the problem will be dealt with immediately.
  8.47 p.m.
  Mr. Horace E. Holmes: I apologise because, owing to other duties, I have been unable to be present throughout the debate. I want to reinforce one or two of the points which have already been made, and particularly what has been said by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) about the reclamation of land and its maintenance.
  In the rapidly developing industrial area in my constituency, hundreds of acres of good agricultural land have been swallowed up. In that constituency there are also many acres of rough common land. During the war much of the common land was reclaimed; it has been a great credit to whoever reclaimed it and to whoever has farmed it. The Ministry of Agriculture should say to the other Departments, "Not another acre of agricultural land shall be taken until you reclaim an acre of other land to put in its place." In my constituency there is very strong feeling about that.
  With regard to capital investment, there is in my constituency a rich rural area in which water is still having to be carted to first-class farms. The rural district council has been in consultation

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  with the farmers, with the county agricultural executive committee and the West Riding County Council about it, and has put forward a scheme, costing about £20,000, to supply the area with water. This has the backing of the West Riding County Council, the farmers and the county agricultural executive committee. From my correspondence with the Ministry, I can almost say that the scheme has the backing of the Department, but the reply from the Ministry is that because a capital investment of £20,000 is involved the scheme is being held up. The development of the rich agricultural belt in my constituency is being frustrated and delayed because of the cost of providing water mains and so forth. Hundreds of acres of valuable agricultural land have been lost each year, and yet there is in the same constituency common land which can be reclaimed and converted into good food-producing land.
  I rise only to stress these points and to reinforce the pleas that have been made to the Minister. What I have said may be parochial, as it is a point of view from a limited area, although it is the limited areas in the aggregate which make up the whole. I hope that the Minister will pay attention to the reclamation of land, the maintenance of the land which we have reclaimed, and the development of various services, such as water, which are so much needed in many agricultural areas today.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. John Baldock: I am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Holmes), because the theme I had principally in mind was that on which he dwelt for a few moments, the retaining in agricultural use of the highly productive land of this country and, where finances permit, the reclamation of new land as well as the commons, which, I feel, is a problem which the Government should tackle. I know there are political difficulties about commons, but there is some pretty good and accessible land in them. With all due respect to some of my hon. Friends, I am not talking about land hundreds of miles away from the centres of population, but land which surrounds them. It is land of fairly good quality, and it can be reclaimed and brought back into fruitful production to
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  make up for what we are necessarily losing in other directions.
  All of us in this Committee subscribe to the policy of an expanding agricultural production, and land is one of the major keys to that. We must, however, keep a sense of proportion over the use of land. We must remember that the urban populations, which represent such a large preponderance of our community, require land and have rights in land. They need houses. It is not everyone who wishes to dwell in the centre of a town in a large block of flats. Such people want gardens, roads, playing fields, aerodromes and many other things which absorb agricultural land.
  I think we must keep that aspect of the matter in proportion and not forget that the urban majority have rights in that direction as well as the farmers and agriculturists. When satisfying those rights and demands for land for the urban population, however, we must say, "Do not let them have the best land. Do not let them have even good land." Again and again the point is made in the House that the great increase in agricultural production which has taken place since 1939 has taken place largely on good land. That has been the major contributing factor to the increase in agricultural production, and yet it is good land which is being eroded away and is becoming smaller in area with every year that passes.
  I believe that we have to continue to rely on intensive farming on good land for increases in our production, but that is becoming more and more difficult as agricultural labour diminishes and as the area of that good land decreases. Is it an economy in the national sense to build our houses and villages round towns on the best, well-drained and most suitable land for agriculture, as is so frequently done? The only possible excuse for such action is that these are the most economical sites on which houses can be built. Over and over again we hear the argument that houses have been built on land on the edge of a village which is flat, well-drained and suitable for agriculture, because it is the cheapest site to develop, but is that sound economy in the long run in the national interest?
  Could we not more profitably spend a little more money in building those

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  houses on land which is less satisfactory agriculturally? I think the Committee should give that matter consideration. Are we not mortgaging the future by allowing first-class agricultural land near the big centres of population to be sprawled over by this kind of development when there is less valuable land, often quite close to it, which would be equally satisfactory to the urban community if rather more money were spent on it? I believe that would be a fine investment for the future of the country.
  On this side of the Committee we believe that meat rationing should be brought to an end as soon as possible. There is little doubt that in order to achieve this we must have a greater number of centres where meat can be stored. Previous Socialist Governments are not entirely free from blame for failing to provide a sufficient quantity of cold stores. They must have realised this problem and they cannot possibly use the excuse—
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. H. Hynd): Order. I think the hon. Member is straying on to the Vote of the Ministry of Food.
  Mr. Baldock: I understood, Mr. Hynd, that increase in food production was the subject before the Committee and I thought that storage facilities were necessary to allow that increase in homegrown meat to be maintained. However, I defer to your Ruling and I will not pursue that matter further, if cold stores do not come under the heading of this Vote.
  I hope that the livestock marketing scheme will be pressed forward because it seems to provide in many ways a satisfactory alternative to the present methods of meat marketing and to control of prices, and I hope that some arrangement will be made in it for storing this meat to allow it to be made available on the market all the year round.
  I feel strongly about the use of land because in my constituency there is a plan, which I have discussed with the Minister, to take over an aerodrome which is on 600 acres of really excellent land. This aerodrome at Bruntingthorpe is a case where one would have hoped that the agricultural interests would have drawn the line and said to the Defence Departments, "This is good land; surely
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  it is possible to find an alternative site on less productive land?" After all, with modern aircraft a few score miles cannot have much strategic importance. Looking at it from an agricultural point of view, looking at it from what I hope is a long-term point of view, it cannot be in the best interests of the community to allow land of that kind to be taken over if there are less productive areas which would serve equally well for the airfield.
  There is every sign, both from statistics and by observation, that we now have an expansive agricultural industry. The present and preceding Governments have given practical assistance to that expansion, but there are threats of gluts and surpluses, even though they may be far away in those fabulous and inaccessible dollar areas. They do, however, cast uncertainty upon the minds of farmers. The doubts which arise are certainly not allayed by speeches such as those which have been made today by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) and by certain articles written by economists who are successors to the Manchester school. Doubts arise in the minds of farmers about future marketing and prices.
  I ask those hon. Members who make speeches of the type made by the hon. Member for Wednesbury, and economists who write that kind of article, to consider how much production has already been lost to the country by the addition they have made to those doubts and by the atmosphere of anxiety which has tended to spread over the agricultural community in the last year or 18 months. Those people who tend to increase the doubts about the future stability of the industry, who undermine confidence in the Agriculture Act and the long-term marketing of agricultural produce, are doing a great deal to thwart the continuing upsurge and increase of agricultural production which can still make such a great contribution to the biggest problem of our time—the balancing of our overseas payments.
  9.2 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: I regret that by rising now I am inevitably cutting out of the debate hon. Members who have sat throughout the afternoon and evening and who are anxious to contribute to the discussion. It is, however,

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  necessary for me to begin now, because I wish to give the Parliamentary Secretary ample time to reply to the debate. I want to give him an opportunity of replying to a good many question which were put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) to which the Minister was unable to reply during his speech.
  Some of us were terribly disappointed by the speech of the Minister this afternoon. Most of us like him very much. He always speaks courteously and kindly and does not hesitate to give us what information is at his disposal. Today, however, the longer his speech continued, the more clear it became that the Minister had simply nothing to tell the Committee. We on this side remember how when he made speeches from this side of the Committee he used to thump the Dispatch Box and demand a long-term policy for agriculture.
  The Minister told us on 2nd February that he was working on many plans. He told us to day that he was still working on the plans, and that some of the commodities that had previously enjoyed fixed prices under the 1947 Act were now enjoying the advantage of support prices only. He did not get as far as answering a whole list of questions, and I should like to trouble the Committee by repeating them and asking the Parliamentary Secretary to answer them to the best of his ability when he replies to the debate.
  These are the questions which were put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley. What steps have been taken to fulfil the promise—or the threat, if the Government like that expression—that was contained in the 1952 White Paper, "Annual Review and Fixing of Farm Prices," from which I quote:
  "The Government will take all possible steps to encourage and where necessary require that full productive use is made of the land."
  My right hon. Friend asked what steps had been taken since then—that was March, 1952—to give effect to that promise. I would be obliged, and my right hon. Friend would be obliged, if we could have an answer.
  My right hon. Friend also asked whether the Government were taking advantage of Section 98 of the 1947 Act
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  to maintain tillage acreage. That is to say, are the Government really administering the powers they have taken to themselves under the Maximum Area of Pasture Order? We should be grateful for information on that. My right hon. Friend asked whether the Minister is exercising his powers of compulsory purchase under Section 84 of the Act of land not being fully used for agricultural purposes.
  My right hon. Friend further asked how many areas altogether the Minister has referred to the Land Commission for investigation, and with what results. We were not told in the course of the reply. My right hon. Friend asked the Minister if his Department would consider publishing a report similar to that published by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland. This is not a party matter; indeed, I have been asking my right hon. Friend why it was not done when he was Minister of Agriculture. A Scottish Member of Parliament gets a tremendous amount of information from the Report of the Department of Agriculture and we think we should get the same sort of information out of the Ministry of Agriculture. We should be glad to know if there is any prospect of a similar report being published by the Ministry.
  The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Baldock) referred to the use of good agricultural land for other purposes. Many of us are concerned to see land being used, as it appears to us, extravagantly—for housing development, putting through new roadways, development of industry and many other purposes. Those of us who have had to negotiate with people taking over agricultural land for non-agricultural purposes must be aware that there would be a better case to put for the protection and conservation of good agricultural land for agricultural purposes if we could show to the community that those entrusted with management were in fact making the best use of it and getting the maximum food production.
  That is what we started to discuss when my right hon. Friend initiated the debate this afternoon. The Minister of Agriculture seemed to convince himself that he had gone on to give us some useful information about increased agricultural production when he told us of the increased production figures for beef cattle, sheep and pigs. But merely to

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  give us those figures is not enough. We all welcome any figures that show the right trend and give evidence of an increase in production, but what is really important is to know whether there is an increase in production per acre of land farmed in this country. We do not know the answer; we have not been told. The Minister will agree that we can have an increase in livestock numbers that would make for a net loss in agricultural production, or production per acre of beef cattle and sheep. The Minister told us that in recent months there had been an increase in the numbers of beef cattle and sheep, but they are the worst converters of coarse grains, and pigs are not much better. It is there that we have an increase in livestock numbers, but milch cows are the best converters of all, and there we have had a rundown.
  Mr. Snadden: We have had an increase in milk.
  Mr. Fraser: The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland says we have had an increase in milk. We have had a remarkable increase in the yield of milk per cow since the end of the war. I think the increase in Scotland is 26 per cent. But I am saying, and I think the Minister will agree, that merely to give figures of increases in cattle, sheep and pigs, and so on, is not to give the whole story. One looks to see what demand that will make on cereals and what land these animals will occupy and what will be the demand for imported feeding-stuffs.
  The Minister seemed to be satisfied with the increase in production shown last year. But Appendix I of the White Paper which was published following the Annual Review includes some interesting figures. For example, taking the pre-war average as 100, by 1946–47 agricultural production stood at 122. By 1950–51, four years later, the figure had gone up to 143. In another year the figure had gone up to 149, a further six points in one year.
  The Minister said he was satisfied with the increase in the past year, but the figure has gone up only a further two points. That represents an increase of something like l½ per cent. per year. I put it to the Minister that that is not
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  good enough. He should not be complacent about it. With that kind of increase he will not achieve a 60 per cent. increase over the 1938 figure by 1956. We were criticised when we were in office because we were getting an increase of only 6 or 7 per cent., but the Minister is boasting of an increase of 1½ per cent. in a year.
  We must all make an effort to get a greater increase in production. The Minister said that would be brought about by the greater freedom now being given to agriculture. But he somehow forgot to tell us how this greater freedom would result in increased production. One or two of his hon. Friends have shown that this greater freedom is likely to result in a fall in production. It goes without saying that support prices now to be given for cereals and which are given for eggs are less than the actual prices previously given, notwithstanding that the cost of production has gone up. Of course the farmers who like this new-found freedom are those who will get prices considerably in excess of support prices.
  We have today heard an admirable maiden speech by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Mr. P. O'Neill) who told us about the difficulties of egg producers in Northern Ireland. They are getting a price which is about the same as the support price for eggs, which would be 4s. per dozen, or less. The hon. Member told us that the costs of production are high in Northern Ireland, where feeding-stuffs have to be imported. They are much higher than for a producer just outside London, who would be getting 6s. a dozen. So the farmer who is nearer the market and for whom feedingstuffs are more readily available will no doubt welcome the new freedom.
  The hon. Member for Antrim, North said that if costs in Northern Ireland continue at their present level production will stop. The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland heard the same kind of speech yesterday from the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). He speaks for the best egg-producing area in Scotland. Indeed, I believe that in Orkney he has the best and biggest egg collecting centre in Great Britain.
  That was all right as long as they were getting the fixed, guaranteed price for

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  eggs, paid at the collecting centre. Now they are only going to get the support price for eggs at the collecting centre, which is less than they got before, while the cost of producing eggs has gone up. So the hon. Gentleman said the same as the other hon. Gentleman said in his maiden speech, namely, that if that process went on, egg production was going to suffer in Orkney, in the new freedom which is so much welcomed and which is going to bring an increase in agricultural production.
  The Minister seemed to imply in his speech that the egg position is quite satisfactory. I tell him that many egg producers consider the position to be absolutely chaotic and that there are many egg producers in a fairly big way who, now that the price they are getting in the market is right down to the support price, believe that the price cannot go any lower, so they are holding on to their eggs for three or four weeks in the hope that prices will go up. Therefore the housewife will be getting eggs which are three or four weeks old before they get to the market. Is that a good thing? That is the sort of thing we shall get under this new form of freedom which is so good for agriculture and which will lead to increased production.
  I do not want to say anything in criticism of the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. I told him I would not, but he jocularly and stupidly said: "It's whisky he's talking about."
  Mr. Snadden: It was my hon. Friend behind me to whom I was speaking.
  Mr. Fraser: Yes, I know, and I was talking about eggs. It is a great pity that the hon. Gentleman does not know what the farmers of Scotland are talking and thinking about this precious egg scheme of his. In any case, the Minister does not say that this is the end of the story, but, like the Joint Under-Secretary, he says that a solution will be found for these problems one by one. A little while ago he said: "We want a long-term policy for agriculture." Now he is going to solve the problems as they arise, after freedom has been given to the agricultural industry, as and when production is near to flopping in consequence of the freedom that has been granted.
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  One of the greatest impediments to increased production in agriculture is the lack of fixed equipment, and particularly that which is the responsibility of the landlord. The Minister brought forward a lot of figures to suggest that agriculture was doing all right in fixed equipment. In the Scottish Standing Committee more figures were produced that agriculture was getting all the money it needed because bank advances were going up and up. The Minister also said that the rate of interest did not matter, and advances had to go up and up because repayments were going up and up in consequence of the increase in the interest charges. The Government publish an Economic Survey once a year, and the survey for 1953 contains some quite interesting figures.
  The industry of agriculture is lumped together with forestry and fishing in this Report so that the figures given are not exclusively for agriculture. But I think that the Committee will appreciate that agriculture accounts for most of this capital investment. In 1948 the gross fixed equipment in agriculture, forestry and fishing was £90 million. The total gross fixed equipment for all industries was £1,466 million. In 1952 the gross fixed equipment in agriculture, forestry and fishing came down to £85 million, but the gross fixed equipment for all industries went up to £2,000 million.
  Therefore, whilst fixed equipment going into other industries is going up and up and up, the fixed equipment going into agriculture, our basic industry, is coming down. These figures are either right or wrong. I think that they are right and that they are much more material figures than those given by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland in the Scottish Grand Committee yesterday and those given by the Minister this afternoon; and they are taken from the Government's own Report.
  Even in 1951 agriculture received 5 per cent. of all the capital fixed equipment going into all industries but in 1952, when there was this great drive for food production, agriculture received 4½ per cent.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: Shame.
  Mr. Fraser: Perhaps this short-fall in fixed equipment is not the result of controls exercisable by the Ministry of Agriculture. It may not be done through the

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  licensing system at all. It may be that landowners are either unable or unwilling to put in the necessary fixed equipment to give us the increased food production which we all require. It may be that many owner-occupiers are already so heavily mortgaged that they cannot raise the necessary additional capital to put in the fixed equipment required to give them the opportunity of securing the increased food production which we all desire.
  I do not know which it is. The Minister may know. In any case, if the Minister and the Joint Parliamentary Secretary cannot tell us why we are not getting more fixed equipment into agriculture they ought to tell us that they will look into the matter and ensure that more does go into agriculture, because if we do not get it we shall not have the increased food production which we need.
  The Minister spoke at some length about the labour force in agriculture. He said that he would ask hon. Members not to over-rate the importance of the call-up and its effect on the withdrawal of labour from agriculture. He said that it did not amount to all that, but he did not take the trouble to give us the figures. He told us how many had gone into the Forces but he did not tell us what was the reduction in the labour force, which is the important thing. But the Digest of Statistics states that last year the male labour force in agriculture was reduced by 23,500, which is a tremendous drop.
  Three per cent. of regular male workers in agriculture were lost in 1952, and that was at a time when we were told that there was a greater drive than ever before to increase production. No wonder that the increase in production was only 1½ per cent. over the year before; and perhaps it would have been excusable if it had been no higher than it was in 1951 in the circumstances of a falling off in the labour force. I am not one who thinks one cannot have increased production without an increased labour force. I sincerely believe, however, that if we allow the labour force in agriculture to run down at the rate of 3 per cent. per year we can say good bye to any prospect of getting any increased supply of food from the soil of this country, and we can look forward gloomily to a day not far distant when we shall all go a bit hungry.
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  We shall be having debates in the not very distant future, some time next week, I believe, on the ploughing grants scheme and I do not want to say much about that scheme at the moment. But we have heard today about the increase in the tillage acreage, and many hon. Members have sought to prove that this increased tillage acreage has been obtained purely in consequence of the ploughing grants. I warned the Minister just now that when we come to discuss these schemes again I shall have some questions to ask about the ploughing grants, and I hope that he will say quite a bit in justification of them.
  I think the ploughing grants are easily justifiable so long as we have a fixed price for the cereals produced on the grassland to be ploughed. In those circumstances, the ploughing grant could truly be said to be a payment on account. It is a part payment. Instead of putting the extra money on the end-price of the product, an advance payment is made in the ploughing grant. I think that is perfectly justifiable so long as we have a fixed price for cereals.
  But when we move into this freer economy that is so acceptable to the present Government, in which farmers are permitted to get whatever price they are able for cereals, and receive in addition the support price, the whole picture alters. There are farmers on the rich lands in Lincolnshire, the Lothians and many other parts of the country, who would plough their land in any case and who would get the £5 per acre for doing a job that they would do in the normal course of their work, as routine husbandry; and with the decontrol of cereal prices, those farmers, who have the biggest yields in the country and who are generally the best fitted for the marketing of cereals, are getting the best price. I give the Minister a warning that we shall have some further questions to ask about the ploughing grants scheme when the scheme comes forward for approval.
  We are anxious to do nothing which would discourage the farmer. Indeed, I think we would be willing to give more money by way of ploughing grants if it could be directed to bringing into cultivation and good production land that would otherwise be producing no food or very inadequate grazing. In recent years we have seen a great increase in grass

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  conservation, grass drying and in the production of grass for silage. That grass is used as a winter feed, and in some measure, therefore, it is fair to say that any acreage of grass so used is comparable with tillage. The Minister said today that he was encouraging further grass conservation. I hope he is. I wonder how far he is encouraging it.
  I wonder whether the loans and grants that were made available by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley, when he was Minister of Agriculture, are still being made available for the plant and equipment necessary for grass drying by individual farmers and co-operatives? I believe the Scottish ones have been discontinued. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us something about that.
  I have raised a lot of questions, as has my right hon. Friend, and they were not answered by the Minister. Other hon. Members have also asked many questions to which the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will wish to reply. I therefore give way to him, saying that if this has not been the best-attended debate of the Session, it is certainly a debate the subject matter of which is of as great importance as any other debate held in this Session of Parliament.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): Before dealing with the main trend of the debate I shall answer the smaller points raised by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser). He asked me what steps had been taken to fulfil the promises made in the 1952 White Paper to deal with the inefficient farmer. There is a very good tale to tell here. The general work that we, with the county committees, have done in the past 18 months or two years has been creditable to them and to us. We have helped and encouraged them to put new life into their work.
  With regard to the question of dispossession, I think it would be a complete mistake—and I think the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) would think so too—to try to measure this work by the number of dispossession orders made. Dispossession is the last act to take when everything else has failed, and I hope and believe that
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  the work we have been doing has been getting over to the individual farmer what we want grown in order to serve the interests of the nation and, at the same time, of the farmers themselves.
  My right hon. Friend has visited a number of counties. My noble Friend, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary in the House of Lords, and I have, between us, visited all the counties in England and Wales, and the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has visited those in Scotland. We have there met the county and district committees and have been able to put over to them just what we are trying to achieve. I know that the right hon. Gentleman used to do very similar things.
  In order to assist us to get a little more pace on the ball we have reappointed the liaison officers who served us so well during the war. As hon. Members will know, we have been lucky enough to get some who served us at that time, and we have others who are very distinguished in the farming world and are giving very valuable time to this work, thus forging a most valuable link between my right hon. Friend and county and district committees. This is having a very valuable effect in getting over to the individual farmer just what we want him to do.
  The hon. Member asked for the number of Maximum Area of Pasture Orders served under Section 95 of the Agriculture Act. Up to 31st October, 1952, there were 494 orders. In the preceding 12 months the number of orders served was 86, compared with 42 for the period August, 1950, to October, 1951, so we doubled the number served in his last year of office. I will give him, in a letter, the details of the number of supervision orders and dispossession orders if he wishes for a specific answer to that question.
  Mr. T. Williams: Can the Joint Parliamentary Secretary say whether, during the last 12 or 18 months, there have been any prosecutions—apart from the mere issue of orders?
  Mr. Nugent: I think there have been prosecutions under the maximum tillage orders. I am afraid I have not the figures handy, but I will let the right hon. Member have details of them. In the main,

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  we have been able to get farmers to respond without the necessity for prosecutions.
  I was asked what references there had been to the Land Commission, and the answer is that there have been two—the Somerset Moors and an extended area at Herne Bay. I will certainly look into the point about an annual report for the Ministry comparable with that produced by Scotland, which we agree is a very valuable document, to see if we could do as well as Scotland.
  The hon. Member for Hamilton was on less good ground when he said my right hon. Friend was making a mistake in assessing his progress by reference to the increased numbers of cattle and sheep. Both, of course, are ruminants, and the critical factor here is that it is grass of which we have an excess and not coarse grains, so that our immediate concern is to increase the numbers of ruminants, the grass-consuming animals, in order to make use of our excess grass. I think that is very satisfactorily reflected in the figures which my right hon. Friend gave.
  The hon. Member asked about fixed equipment and extracted figures from the Economic Survey, and I think that that point is partially to be explained by the fact that something like half the figure of £80 million a year is attributable to expenditure on machinery. When the initial allowance was originally removed by his right hon. Friend, that had an immediate effect in checking the farmers' expenditure on that account. The hon. Gentleman would be unwise to assume from these figures that there has been a smaller expenditure on fixed equipment on the farm. I cannot distinguish between the figures for these two items, but I expect that this expenditure is proceeding at least as well as it was before and, with the relaxation of building permits, possibly better.
  I agree that the fall in the labour force figures last year is a serious matter, and it is something to which my right hon. Friend has given much attention. The fact is that since the call-up was applied to agriculture albeit to a limited extent, the figures, which previously had been mounting year by year, immediately began to decline. Unfortunately, we do not lose only those who are called up.
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  as the industry loses some of its previous attraction far some of the others. My right hon. Friend has done all that can be done in extending deferment to different classes, particularly stockmen. We all accept that the industry has to make its contribution to the needs of the Defence Services. This is a situation with which we have to cope as best we can. The labour figures continue to be a worrying concern to us all.
  We all agree on the long-term solution of greater amenities, which we are pursuing. I think the figures given recently of the increased allocation of capital equipment for electricity supplies, one of the amenities which will make a valuable contribution in this field, were most welcome.
  I will not go into the question of the ploughing subsidy for I do not doubt that I shall be engaged with the hon. Member for Hamilton in due course when we debate the Order. On the question of grass conservation and grass drying grants, as the right hon. Member for Don Valley knows, his Act provided for only three years, which ran out some time ago.
  Mr. T. Williams: And has not been continued.
  Mr. Nugent: No, it has not been continued. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because we feel that the taxpayers' money should be used with a little more caution than it was by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Mr. Williams: Is the hon. Gentleman, when he makes that observation, deprecating such undertakings as the grass drying enterprise down in Norfolk run by Lord Melchett?
  Mr. Nugent: I am not deprecating grass drying, but I am deprecating putting public money into risky enterprises, where the money should normally be found by the private entrepreneurs themselves—
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Mr. Peart: What about hill farming?
  Mr. Nugent: —and that is the general philosophy of my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side of the Committee.
  Mr. Peart Mr. Peart rose—
  Mr. Nugent: I cannot give way again.
  Mr. Williams: The Joint Parliamentary Secretary is shaken.
  Mr. Nugent: If the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) is so excited about hill farming I will certainly give him a reply. The assistance given under the Livestock Rearing and Hill Farming Acts is in a totally different category from the grant aiding, on the generous scale of the right hon. Gentleman, of enterprises like the grass-drying one in Norfolk—an entirely different category. One is a very proper thing to do, and the other very doubtful.
  Mr. Williams Mr. Williams rose—
  Mr. Nugent: No, really, I have given way very often.
  I come now to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Mr. P. O'Neill), who gave us all so much pleasure by his maiden speech. We all remember, with affection and respect, his father, who served for so many years with great distinction in this Committee and became the Father of the House. It was a great pleasure to hear my hon. Friend making such a fluent and useful contribution today. He was, of course, dealing with a particular aspect of the agricultural problems of Northern Ireland. That is a problem not confined to agriculture but reflects the general problem of transport costs—of things going to Northern Ireland and things coming back from Northern Ireland. It is part of a very much larger problem.
  On the question of egg prices, he asked whether the interim egg scheme would be replaced. The scheme is working quite smoothly at present. We are prepared at any time to receive any proposition that the Farmers' Unions wish to put up to us for any alternative scheme, but up to the present time we have not received one. The price arrangements for next year can proceed on the usual basis and the calculations can be made according to the returns that we now have.
  Certainly we realise how very important potato growing in Northern Ireland is. I cannot guarantee to my hon. Friend that it is possible to get what he would call, I suppose, a smoother take-off of those potatoes that come over to England. The general policy has always been to regard the reserve of potatoes in Northern Ireland as something of a
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  national reserve. I know they tend to stop rather to the end of the season, but in this matter the Northern Ireland farmers are making a particularly valuable contribution, and I hope that my hon. Friend will feel that that should be some consolation to them.
  I was asked a further question by the hon. Member for Workington with regard to the Estimates. The large reduction in the Estimates to which he referred in respect of animal health is due to the small token provisions for compensation which we hope is all that will be necessary. This year, fortunately, we did not have very heavy losses from foot-and-mouth disease, and, therefore, less compensation is provided. I shall write to the hon. Member about his two smaller points, to give him the details.
  I think that the burden of the debate has been related to the Government's general policy of moving into a freer economy. My right hon. Friend satisfied the House in his speech, I think, that our policy of interpreting the 1947 Act in a more flexible form was not inconsistent with the spirit of it. I should like to make the point that when the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland made his comments about fixed prices, he did not mean that we are opposed to fixed prices in themselves but to the State trading system, which we feel it is now time to get rid of.
  Indeed, in the freer economy into which we are moving there will be some commodities—for instance, wool may be one—which will have a marketing scheme where a pool price and, therefore, a fixed price for all farmers operates; and so it may be that for some commodities in the future there will be a fixed level of prices for all producers concerned. That will depend on what schemes are established for different commodities.
  Mr. T. Fraser: Does the hon. Gentleman disagree with the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland who on 2nd February said:
  "Fixed prices have hampering effects upon enterprise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1953; Vol. 510, c. 1521.]
  Mr. Nugent: It is not so much the fixed price in itself as the trading system which we are now getting rid of. It is quite possible, and, in fact, probable, that if producers join in a marketing

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  scheme similar to that of the Wool Marketing Board they may well be receiving a fixed price in the future, although their product is not going through the State trading process.
  The general picture that my right hon. Friend gave of the increases in production was, I think, something which satisfied everyone in the Committee—that whatever criticism hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite may make of our policy at least it was succeeding, it was securing rising production in the commodities that we particularly want and was showing every prospect of going on doing so. Therefore, my right hon. Friend is entitled to take every credit for it.
  While it does not particularly apply to this debate, it certainly did to the last debate which we had in February, when the right hon. Member for Greenock (Mr. McNeil), who I am sorry is not here tonight, made some very stringent and damaging remarks—damaging to confidence and not justified in themselves—that it is a fact which it is right to remember that we are talking about the lives and livings of hundreds of thousands of farmers and hundreds of thousands of farm workers. The work which they are doing, as the right hon. Member for Don Valley well knows—and I appreciate the moderation of his speech—plays a vital part in providing the food on our tables every day. Therefore, right though it is for the Opposition to be critical of anything with which they do not agree in the Government's policy, it is equally right that they should try, unless they have some constructive alternative, not to make that criticism in a way which will upset confidence.
  May I ask what alternative the Opposition have? I had a look at this extraordinary document "Challenge to Britain," and what did I find? I found that the policy stated there is going to increase output by one-third in five years. I wonder whether the framers of the document really thought out what the implications of the policy would be.
  Mr. T. Fraser: The maintenance of increased production.
  Mr. Nugent: Take the instance of milk. An increase of one-third would mean an additional 600 million gallons
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  a year. There is no prospect of enlarging the liquid market, and so it would all have to go to manufacture, and that would represent an additional subsidy of about £37 million.
  Mr. Fraser: Nobody said that.
  Mr. Alfred Robens: Tell the hon. Gentleman to come to Margate.
  Mr. Nugent: Hon. Gentlemen opposite have been handing it out; now they have to take it. They have been critical of our policy. They have tried their policy out in a rural constituency, and they have seen the result. The electorate of Abingdon were more discriminating than they are.
  There are one or two other interesting little sidelights which might interest the Opposition. An increase of one-third in the potato acreage would produce an addition of nearly two million tons a year, all for stock feed because human consumption requirements will not take any more. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may criticise our policy, but they must take some responsibility for what they have written. On that line, there is a further comment that I want to make about Labour Party policy. The statement says that it will not use the Price Review to make changes in the balance of production between different crops.
  Mr. T. Williams: Would it not be better if the hon. Gentleman applied himself to the policy which is now being pursued?
  Mr. Nugent: I can understand that the right hon. Gentleman does not care for this, but as he has been attacking our policy, it is not unfair for me, just in passing, to make some comment upon his own. I want, in passing, to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to a remark made by his right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), who was Chancellor of the Exchequer in the last Government. He made a comment on this policy statement in the "Daily Herald."
  Mr. Williams: Reply to the debate.
  Mr. Nugent: I can well understand that comment. The Labour Party's policy certainly wants a good deal more done to it before it is finished. I will give the right hon. Gentleman the words

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  of his right hon. Friend so that he can have the benefit of them. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South said:
  "Incidentally, I am puzzled by the abandonment of the February price review as a means of influencing production. It is no use believing in economic planning without being ready to use the instruments of economic planning. If we do not use changes in our buying prices to stimulate the right kind of production, what other instruments of planning can we use?"
  So the report goes on.
  Mr. Robens: Answer the questions.
  Mr. Peart: What about the policy of cheap credit?
  Mr. Nugent: I want now to turn to an aspect of the debate which I feel is of particular importance, and that is the question of stability in the freer economy into which we are moving. There is a genuine misapprehension in the minds of many farmers, and perhaps of many hon. Members as well, about whether a comparable economic stability can be given to farmers in a freer economy in which prices are not fixed and paid by the Ministry of Food for the State. The point I want to make is that in the past 14 years farmers have been accustomed to receiving payment for the main part of their produce from the Ministry of Food, which pays the price fixed after the Price Review. It is not unnatural that they have identified that stability to some extent with the body which has paid them the money.
  The point I want to make clear is that it was not the system of State purchase by the Ministry of Food that gave them economic stability. It was the price policy behind it, and if the level of prices that the Ministry of Food had been paying had not been satisfactory quite obviously the farmers would not have had reasonable returns. If one looks at the production and the net income figures over the years that picture comes out very clearly.
  Going back as far as 1945–46, we see a net output index of 128 when the Socialist Government began, and a net income of £202 million. The net income dropped to £183 million the next year and in the following year it rose to £216
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  million and went up to £284 million with the 1947 expansion programme. The production began to expand with it, and it continued to go up in the next year with net income advancing to over £300 million and production going up to 143. The net income dropped again in 1951–52 to £262 million and we found production standing still again.
  The picture that comes out of this is twofold. First of all, the level of production fluctuated considerably during those years, and, therefore, the price review machinery, valuable though it was and carefully though it was operated, is not a precise piece of scientific machinery which can give an accurate result for a given year. It is on a basis which can provide an estimated net farm income to within £20 million or £30 million, and is sufficient to indicate what the general trend of production is. It will be possible for us to give roughly the same picture when we get into a freer economy.
  What we propose to do and, as my right hon. Friend says, what we are now doing, is to work out with the farmers the most appropriate structures in the different commodities for price and market in the freer economy; structures which will enable us to maintain prices at what we think is the right level in the interests of both producer and consumer. As the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price) said in his thoughtful speech, there are various systems. There is the deficiency payments system, which has been used satisfactorily here in the past. There is the price support system which is now being used for eggs. There are other systems for supporting prices as well.
  The determining factor in each of them as to what result they will give is the price policy behind it. My right hon. Friend has said beyond a doubt tonight, and his words are confirmed by what has been said on other occasions by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, that the price policy is intended fully to maintain the provisions of the 1947 Act.
  Therefore, there is no reason for doubt in the minds of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, or farmers in the country, that we intend to maintain an economic stability for farmers throughout the country in the freer economy comparable with that which they have had in

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  the past, and with that they can confidently go on increasing their production on the lines that we have asked them to do—
  It being Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  AGRICULTURE AND FOOD PRODUCTION
    ESTIMATES
    Captain Waterhouse added to the Select Committee.—[Sir C. Drewe.]

  ROCHESTER BY-PASS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Vosper.]
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. A. G. Bottomley: Some of my colleagues have asked me, "Why are you raising the subject of the by-pass road tonight?" Obviously they have in mind that there is a fine road leading out of London, but what apparently they do not know is that the only town it does not by-pass is Rochester, as many of them find to their cost when they make the journey down to the Kentish area. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), when Home Secretary, was late for an important engagement on one occasion through being held up outside the City of Rochester for one and a half hours due to the congestion of the traffic.
  I make no apology for keeping the Minister tonight because, although this Rochester by-pass road was suggested as long ago as 1923, this is the first time the matter has been raised in debate in the House. It is true that questions have been put. I myself have put many to the Minister and although I should be wrong if I said he gave me satisfaction, equally it would be untrue to say that the Minister has not been reasonable. Indeed, he himself suggested recently that I might bring along a deputation of the interested Members of Parliament, representatives of Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham councils, representatives from the Medway Chamber of Commerce and from the Medway Trades Council and the local branch of the National Farmers' Union. I want
  714
  to stake the claim or express the hope that, if possibly they want to come along again later to see the Minister, he will afford us the facility he was so ready to give us before.
  The by-pass road has been suggested many times. If we go back to the original occasion I think it is true to say that the traffic then was much lighter than it is today. I will give one or two figures to support the contention. In August, 1925, the average number of vehicles passing through that part of Rochester which causes the greatest difficulty was 7,950 vehicles a day. Ten years later the number rose to 17,621 vehicles and in 1938 it was 20,693 vehicles. This year there was a census in March, when the average total going through daily was 15,812. I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that that was at the period when the licensing numbers were lowest, and I think we could reasonably add 50 per cent. to that total.
  This number of vehicles passes over one section of the road which is 17 ft. 6 ins. wide. There is no alternative route. It is difficult to repair the roads, and the repairing of mains and the laying of cables is a most difficult job. Several Ministers have had to face criticism from constituents and from myself when they have been engaged upon doing important work concerned with the need to defend our country.
  In normal times there are long delays and I can assure the Minister that there great inconvenience is caused. The local bus service is disorganised, workers arrive late with a consequent loss of pay in some cases, and certainly a loss in production. They also arrive home late, which is not good for family life. The housewives themselves suffer. I have had many letters and I will quote a sentence or two from one of them. This housewife says:
  "It has become sheer torture to go shopping in Strood on a Saturday morning. It is hopeless to wait for a bus and one is forced to climb Strood Hill loaded with shopping. Crossing the road is almost attempting suicide. Friday evenings are almost as bad."
  Local conditions, therefore, justify this by-pass road. I should like, however, to extend the justification, not only because of local conditions, but because the whole of the county wants the road. It does not need me to advertise on behalf of other Members their delightful constituencies,

  715
  but in Kent there are some of the most delightful seaside resorts in the country. People go there once, find that there is the great traffic delay, and do not go a second time. And so we should like the opportunity of feeding the coastal towns with a satisfactory run of customers.
  To turn to my own constituency, Rochester has its wonderful Cathedral, its Castle and its Dickens associations. We could have many visitors if we had a different line of communication. Last year's Mayor of Rochester went on a tour of the world to see the other Rochesters. He did a good service for the country, particularly as many dollar visitors have come here. At the moment, he has staying with him two dollar visitors. One is a chief of police. I can imagine him going back home and saying, "Yes, go to Rochester," but instead of telling people to come for all the wonderful scenery, he is more likely to tell them to come to see the biggest traffic bottleneck in the world.
  In addition to the county and local interest, the area has a vital national interest. Everybody would admit at once that Chatham Dockyard is of great importance. Therefore, in the interests of strategy, there should be free communication, with as little hindrance as possible. There is in the area a garrison town, which may require the rapid movement of troops. There is an airfield, whose ground personnel may at given times have to be moved about very rapidly. Because it is a target area, there must be proper facilities for the Civil Defence personnel to do their work properly; and then there is the important question of supplies. I served in that part of the world during the last war and we had hurriedly to make emergency erections to meet contingencies of the kind which could involve a breakdown in time of war. What I suggest is that we put the matter right now and not have to make emergency arrangements in due course.
  From a national point of view, I should have thought that a better road would afford an enormous saving of fuel. It would prevent the wear and tear of vehicles and would mean a considerable
  716
  saving in time and manpower. We know, because of the terrible accident that we had in the Chatham area, there would be fewer accidents and fewer opportunities for traffic to clash. Pedestrians certainly would not have to take the risks that they take today.
  Everybody agrees—there is no difference of opinion, I gather, between local authorities, the county and the Ministry—that the road is a necessity. Over a period of 30 years several schemes have been prepared, but they have had to be changed because the land has been used either for housing or for an aerodrome. On another occasion, there were difficulties because it could not be decided whether there should be a bridge across the Medway or a tunnel underneath. The Rochester City Council has a fundamental grievance, because in 1937 they said they would widen their roads but the Ministry of Transport asked them not to do so in case their action prejudiced the by-pass road. The Ministry, therefore, are to some extent entirely responsible for the delays which occur in the city today. We want an end to this uncertainty. Amongst the consequential problems, housing development, both corporation building and private enterprise, is held up.
  I should like to quote one other letter from the many that I have received from constituents. This man writes:
  "I purchased a parcel of land in 1948 upon which to build a dwelling, having been married in 1947. In 1951 a building licence was refused because the Ministry of Transport had by then altered the proposed route of the Medway by-pass. My land was affected. After expensive legal negotiations, permission was granted to build further back on the plot. Building is now in progress. Some of the further part of my land will be requisitioned by the new by-pass road. The exact amount cannot be ascertained until the work of building the by-pass is in hand. Can you imagine what a quandary that puts me in?"
  There are many cases like that.
  In those circumstances, private builders cannot be persuaded to build and corporation building is also held up. In addition, the local authorities are unable to define a plan which would ensure security of tenure for commerce. It does not need me to tell the Parliamentary Secretary that that means a loss of rateable value that we can ill afford to lose if we are to develop this city and the town of Chatham.

  717
  I know the Minister will tell me that plans are well ahead for trunk roads and that what holds up progress is the national capital investment programme. One-tenth of our national income is spent on operating vehicles on our roads. I think that the roads are part of our industrial equipment. They help poduction and help to reduce the cost of living. Therefore, unless we give serious attention to the problem of the roads, particularly to roads of this kind, we shall not be helping our economy, but rather damaging it in a way we can ill afford at this time.
  Farmers have made complaints and the Parliamentary Secretary has written to me on the matter. I have had an opportunity of seeing the farmers. They are completely dissatisfied and say that farming suffers because of the failure of the Ministry to say positively where the by-pass is to be. The Minister has power under the Trunk Roads Act, 1946, and the Special Roads Act, 1949, to define once and for all where the by-pass is to be. I appeal to him in the interests of my constituents and in the national interest to do so.
  10.12 p.m.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: I am most grateful to the right hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley) for leaving me a few moments this evening to speak on this matter, because it is a matter which concerns my constituents in Gillingham just as much as his. I am sure my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary feels a little uncomfortable. It is not very often that a Minister is attacked from the front and the rear at the same time. He should be thankful that tonight the right hon. Member and I are both holding our fire somewhat.
  That does not mean that we are not completely united in this matter, which affects the welfare of our towns. I might serve notice on my hon. Friend that just because we are very moderate in the manner in which we approach this matter this evening it means that, unless he assures us that something will be done and the matter pursued energetically, at some future date—perhaps not very far ahead—we shall attack far more vigorously, and the attack from the rear will be as vigorous as that from the front.
  718
  I do ask my hon. Friend if when he is considering direct negotiations with the local authorities he will bear in mind what the right hon. Member has suggested. The three local authorities of the Medway towns—I speak particularly of my town—should have an opportunity of presenting their case and we, the Members of Parliament, should also have an opportunity of being present when any negotions are carried out. Of course, I am not feeling very unhappy about the unfortunate experience of the right hon. Gentleman the former Home Secretary being delayed in Strood High Street, because the probability is that he was coming to my constituency to cause me trouble at the last Election.
  We had a most graphic example of the terrific congestion which can happen there when one of the constructing towers which we often saw when we had tramways was being used in Strood High Street; I waited there for just on an hour to go through. The chaos created when road repairs are undertaken in that street has to be seen to be believed.
  In my constituency the same difficulties apply in Rainham, where the street is also very narrow. We have this wide road, A.2, leading into two bottlenecks. It is an absolute menace and danger to the people of the Medway towns, and they are particularly concerned about it at week-ends. People wishing to get to the coast dash down the A.2 road only to be brought up sharp in Strood and Rainham. The parents of children in these places live in fear and trembling every week-end.
  I know that my hon. Friend and the present Government are not completely to blame, and neither was the last Government. It was only in 1946 that this road became a trunk road and the responsibility of the Ministry of Transport. This is an undertaking of great magnitude. It represents 25 miles of road by-passing Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Sittingbourne and Faversham and includes a bridge over the Medway or a tunnel under it.
  I ask my hon. Friend to consider whether it would be more desirable to construct a tunnel than a bridge in view of the presence of the dockyard and the fact that a bridge would afford an excellent target if, unhappily, we

  719
  were again involved in a war. Such a road would also take up desirable agricultural land with consequent objections from the farmers involved. I do not deny that the last Government pursued this matter energetically, but the official inquiries and surveys must have been prolonged and difficult. I should like to know if they are now completed and whether the line of the road has been determined. If it has not, may we be assured that it will be determined in the near future?
  It may be said that the cost is enormous. But why not make a start on the part which would ease the congestion of traffic into and out of the vital Medway area? It is vital that lines of communication to the dockyard should be kept open if that area is to preserve its strategic importance in times of emergency. I ask my hon. Friend to give serious consideration to these matters, and I hope that he will be able to give us a favourable reply tonight.
  10.19 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Gurney Braithwaite): I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley) has provided me with this opportunity of explaining the present position regarding this by-pass more fully than was possible in answering Questions across the Floor of the House. I am well aware that there is a great deal of anxiety locally about this matter, and I hope that in the 10 minutes at my disposal I shall be able to say something to assuage those feelings. I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) for a speech which was helpful rather than hostile on this occasion. I think it will be most useful if I begin by giving a brief history of the planning of the line of this by-pass.
  This is a proposed diversion of the present trunk road, A.2, which goes from London to Dover via Rochester and Canterbury to by-pass the Medway towns Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham, and also Sittingbourne and Faversham further east. The whole scheme, as my hon. Friend told us a moment ago, involves some 25 miles of new road. The Ministry pushed ahead with this scheme immediately before the war and even then
  720
  encountered particular difficulties near Rochester and Chatham because of the desirability of avoiding interference at that time with the operations of Messrs. Short Bros., who were engaged in the construction of flying boats, an important defence work. This made it difficult at that time to find the most suitable crossing of the Medway. The proposal was being considered then on the basis of a series of loops by-passing the various towns and villages, and reconnecting with A.2.
  On the conclusion of the war, Messrs. Short Brothers moved away from the area, and it then became apparent that, in view among other things of the various other prospects of development in this area, it would be desirable to find a complete by-pass line from west of the Medway towns to east of Faversham, linking up with both the route A.2 and with the coastal road A.299. This involved a better crossing of the Medway from the engineering point of view, in that it did not have to be accommodated to the aircraft operations of which I spoke a moment ago.
  Naturally, this matter needed careful investigation, both because of the industrial developments associated with the towns and general planning interests, and because of the agricultural lands which would necessarily be affected. I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate that the engineering questions, including as they do the provision of a Medway Bridge which will exceed 1,500 ft. in length, and many other bridges and viaducts, necessarily take a long time to work out, particularly when they have to be fitted in with the factors which I have already deployed to the House and which are particularly acute in this area.
  I cannot count the number of occasions since I have had the honour to occupy my present office when, on Monday afternoons at Question time, I have explained to the House that, in view of the present financial difficulties of the country, expenditure on roads would have to be kept to a minimum. I must try to fit this particular scheme into that picture. The full scheme will cost about £4½ million at present prices, and it is for that reason as I am sure hon. Members will appreciate on both sides of the House that we have to regard this as a long-term project. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, and also my

  721
  hon. Friend behind me, are not alone in presenting this kind of problem. I saw sitting opposite me not long ago one of my colleagues in the representation of the City of Bristol, where the inner circuit road is urgently required if the city is to derive certain revenues which would be of very great value to us.
  Mr. Burden: May I impress upon my hon. Friend that this is an immediate necessity, because of the strategic value it would have?
  Mr. Braithwaite: My hon. Friend has rather anticipated my point. The longer I stay at the Ministry of Transport the more I become convinced, that, with the exception of yourself, Mr. Speaker, the other 623 of my colleagues have unique problems, when it comes to the question of roads.
  Mr. Bottomley: Have they all been waiting for 30 years?
  Mr. Braithwaite: We are confronted with the problem of Staines, about which we have heard a very great deal from both sides of the House. In the West Country, not far from the city of Bristol, the people who desire to proceed to the West, quite apart from going to the beautiful country of Exmoor and Devon, are faced with the bottleneck at Bridgwater, which has been causing acute discomfort. Until a moment ago there were two hon. Members from Scotland sitting opposite me. I was sure they were there with a watching brief in case I should say something friendly to the hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham in which case they would have leapt to their feet and asked me: "What about the Forth Bridge?"
  Miss Margaret Herbison: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Braithwaite: I did not see the hon. Lady.
  It is always a matter of great anxiety to my right hon. Friend in carrying out planning for the lines of new roads which affect so many interests to try to investigate them fully and select proposals which, so far as possible, satisfy them. Indeed, the planning job for the Ministry of Transport all over the country has been a huge one, and in the last two years the calls for defence needs upon the resources
  722
  of skilled manpower, as well as the necessity to economise in expense, have meant, not only under us but under our predecessors, a slowing down in the pace of the planning which we should have liked to have achieved.
  We have, however, worked out the main outline of future roads for development plans, even though in some instances only in diagram form; and this has been a major operation the success of which cannot be said to be invalidated by the fact that in some instances, such as the present one, final proposals have not yet been settled. Despite my right hon. Friend's desire to be as accommodating as possible to the wishes of local interested parties, hard engineering facts in addition to the main requirements of laying down a new road at all mean that we cannot be as flexible as many laymen may naturally hope, and indeed as we ourselves often wish.
  To find the best line is a very difficult matter, but my right hon. Friend asks me to say that he hopes that this is now within sight of solution in this case. As I have already indicated to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rochester and Chatham in my answer on 16th March this year, we expect to have our proposals ready by the autumn and to publish them in the form of the necessary Statutory Instrument by the end of the year.
  Let me say at once—we must anticipate this trouble which is bound to come up at us—that of course no line can avoid damaging somebody and there will be bound to be objections, at any rate from some farming interests. As the House will be aware, the statutory procedure provides full opportunity for these to be heard through the machinery of a public inquiry. Only after that public inquiry, and only after a full hearing of objections shall we be in the position to go ahead with making the necessary Statutory Instrument. I cannot, of course, anticipate how long this process may take.
  I can, however, assure the right hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham and the House that my right hon. Friend is fully alive to the desirability of this road, but I cannot, of course, give any forecast of when it will be possible for it to be constructed. I only wish that I could give

  723
  the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham a more encouraging and direct answer than that tonight. But I must be honest with them and say that until the financial conditions of the country improve this is one of the many desirable schemes on which we can do some of the preliminary planning—and we are pushing ahead with that—
  724
  but which must await fulfilment until the necessary funds are forthcoming. But this undertaking I can give—that at all stages there will be full consultation with the local authorities who will be affected.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes past Ten o'clock.

NATIONAL FINANCE
  Education (Capital Expenditure)
  Education (Capital Expenditure)
  Retail Prices Index
  Retail Prices Index
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Police Enrolments (Convicted Persons)
  Police Enrolments (Convicted Persons)
  Firemen's Pensions
  Firemen's Pensions
  Executed Man (Murder Charge Inquiry)
  Executed Man (Murder Charge Inquiry)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Royal Infirmary, Leicester
  Royal Infirmary, Leicester
  Hospital Admissions Newcastle
  Hospital Admissions Newcastle
  Mental Treatment (Accommodation)
  Mental Treatment (Accommodation)
  Aged and Sick (Night Watching Services)
  Aged and Sick (Night Watching Services)
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
  Nurses
  Nurses
  B.C.G. Vaccine
  B.C.G. Vaccine
  Dagenham Occupational Centre (Transport)
  Dagenham Occupational Centre (Transport)
EDUCATION
  School Meals
  School Meals
  School-Building Programme
  School-Building Programme
  Cornwall
  Cornwall
  School Transport, Tamworth
  School Transport, Tamworth
  Secondary Schools (Extended Leaving Age)
  Secondary Schools (Extended Leaving Age)
  New Housing Estates, Birmingham
  New Housing Estates, Birmingham
  Technical Colleges (Grants)
  Technical Colleges (Grants)
  OLD AGE PENSIONERS (PETITION)
  OLD AGE PENSIONERS (PETITION)
  RIVER POLLUTION (SEWAGE)
  RIVER POLLUTION (SEWAGE)
  ORDNANCE FACTORIES (REPORT)
  ORDNANCE FACTORIES (REPORT)
SCOTLAND
  Forestry Training School, Glentress
  Forestry Training School, Glentress
  Brick Supplies, Midlothian
  Brick Supplies, Midlothian
  ANNUAL PRICE REVIEWS
  ANNUAL PRICE REVIEWS
  TELEPHONES SERVICE (RURAL AREAS)
  TELEPHONES SERVICE (RURAL AREAS)
  UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR
  UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR
  MONOPOLIES COMMISSION
  MONOPOLIES COMMISSION
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  TELEVISION POLICY
  3.7 p.m.
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to make a statement with regard to television policy. In early 1951 the late Government placed a ban on further major capital development on television by the B.B.C. The present Government decided when they took office in October, 1951, that the financial and economic condition of the country made it necessary to continue the ban. I am glad to inform the House that the Government are now in a position to agree that the B.B.C. should proceed at once with certain projects that will make television available to another six to seven million people. They can also now make a start with very high frequency sound services to help improve reception in areas where it is not satisfactory. New television stations will be set up at Aberdeen, Belfast, the Isle of Wight, Plymouth and Pontop Pike; the London station will be removed to the Crystal Palace: and stations will be erected to serve the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. With this programme of development B.B.C. television will be available to some 90 per cent. of the population within a period of eighteen months.
  In their White Paper on Broadcasting issued in May 1952 (Cmd. 8550), the Government stated, in paragraph 7, that they had
  "come to the conclusion that in the expanding field of television provision should be made to permit some element of competition. …"
  Anxieties have been expressed since that date about the implications of a new system of competitive television. There is, however, a real danger that public opinion is being formed without any balanced or detailed knowledge of what sort of system might be set up. The Government therefore propose to publish
  116
  in the autumn a further White Paper defining the terms upon which competitive television might be permitted to operate. The Government are pledged to submit for the approval of Parliament the terms and conditions of any licences which might be issued. The White Paper will enable the House and the country to exercise a proper judgment in this essential matter before any final decision is taken. In considering this question it is necessary to emphasise what seems very often to be forgotten—that the B.B.C. will in any case remain intact and its scope will in fact be extended. Its national and international standing will be unaffected, and its revenue and present basis of work will remain secure.
  The House will be interested to know, without going into details which would be more appropriate to the White Paper, of some of the broad principles under which commercial television might operate. First, the number of stations under any one ownership or control would be limited. Secondly, it is not likely that a large number of stations would be licensed in the first instance and they would be of low power and limited range. Thirdly, a Controlling Body would beset up to advise the Postmaster General on the issue of licences and would see that programmes conform to the standards to be laid down. It would, for example, have power to call for a script in advance of presentation, to warn a station which offended against the letter or spirit of these standards and to make recommendations to the Postmaster General that the licence of any particular station should be suspended or withdrawn. Fourthly, the owner and operator of a station, whose licence would be at stake, and not the provider of programmes or the sponsor, would be the person responsible for what was broadcast. Fifthly, among other things which might be specified in the licence or by the Controlling Body would be the maximum number of hours the station should operate, any restrictions on the advertising of certain products and the percentage of time and the place to be allotted to advertising matter in any programme.
  3.12 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, the whole House will be grateful to the noble Earl the Postmaster General for giving us this statement. I am sure, equally, that the

  117
  whole House will be glad to hear that further financial facilities are available to the B.B.C. to extend their excellent service. I should, however, like to ask the noble Earl this question. He will realise that there is a large body of opinion, by no means confined to one Party—I think it would be a great pity if this matter got on to Party lines at all—which views the whole prospect of sponsored television, altogether apart from details, with something like abhorrence.
  It is now over a year since we had a debate on this matter, and in the course of that year, and recently in connection with the Coronation, we have had experience of the service that television can render; and that, I think, has caused many of us to think afresh on this matter. I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he will give facilities at an early date—I mean before the Recess—for a debate in this House. I hope it would be a debate in which noble Lords in all Parties would be perfectly free, with no Whips on at all, to express the views they held. Such a debate would, I am sure, be of guidance and assistance to the Government, because it could proceed on broad general principles, altogether apart from particular details which would be covered by the White Paper.
  3.14 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I should like to support the request made by the Leader of the Opposition for an early debate on this exceedingly important subject. It may be thought that, since a White Paper is to be presented in the autumn, it would be better for the House to postpone its own discussion until it had before it the definite proposals in that form. But, since the statement to-day lays down five important principles on which the White Paper will be founded, it appears to me, and it appears to the noble and learned Earl who bas just spoken, that it is necessary for an opportunity to be given to all sections of, and indeed all individuals in, the House to express their views with respect to those principles, They may need considerable elucidation, examination and, very likely, criticism. It would be well that those opinions should be expressed before rather than after the White Paper is presented to Parliament and the Government
  118
  have finally made up their minds on those issues.
  THE EARL OF HALIFAX: My Lords, may I add one word before my noble friend replies? It is quite evident that the White Paper that we are promised in the autumn will be a Paper of great importance. I would have supposed, therefore, that it would be of advantage to Her Majesty's Government—and I hope my noble friend may feel able to take this view—to be as fully seized as possible of the opinion that it may be expressed in all quarters of the House before that White Paper is finally drawn.
  3.16 p.m.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE M LRQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House if I, as Leader of the House, answered this supplementary question. Of course, the House has the right at any time to ask for a debate on any subject, and the last thing the Government would wish to do would be in any way to attempt to stifle discussion, especially on a subject of such great topical interest and importance as this. But I should like to ask the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, whether they will think a little further before they come to a final decision about what they want. After all, we all know—it is common knowledge—that this is a question which has engendered a great deal of heat, and that extremely strong views are held on both sides, views which are, if I may say so, often as much emotional as purely objective. Therefore, a debate in these circumstances would not necessarily be as valuable as we should all wish.
  Moreover, I would draw the attention of the House to one sentence in the statement which my noble friend has just read to your Lordships:
  "The White Paper will enable the House and the country to exercise a proper judgment in this essential matter before any final decision is taken."
  Would there really be any great utility in a debate before the House and the country are in a position to "exercise a proper judgment in this essential matter" I Does the noble and learned Earl really think that a debate now, in the present state of opinion on boll sides, and before all the information which has to come

  119
  to the country is available, will serve the ultimate cause which we all have at heart, to get the best solution of this difficult problem that we can? The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, pointed out, quite rightly, that in my noble friend's statement there were what he called "five principles." I would point out, however, that they were mentioned for the purpose of indicating to the House the difficulties which might occur in any case, whatever view was taken, in operating a full and competitive television service. The vital words in the statement are
  "some of the broad principles under which commercial television might operate."
  This statement is not laying clown at the present moment—in fact, the Government are not in a position to do so—exactly what the form will be. It has been made for the information of the House and the public, to enable them to begin to crystallise their minds in the light of further information. The last thing I want to say is, "Do not have a debate," but I should like the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and other noble Lords in the House to think the matter over further. If they still feel that they wish to have a debate, of course the Government will not resist that request.
  EARL JOWITT: I am most grateful to the noble Marquess the Leader of the House. Of course, anything he says will be considered. I will take the opportunity of discussing this matter with the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, the noble Earl, Lord Halifax, and other noble Lords who may be interested. Off-hand, my opinion is that it would be useful to have a debate—useful, I think, not only to us but to Her Majesty's Government, because we may be able to present objections to this scheme which are so fundamental that they ought to be in the mind of the Government when they come to draw up their scheme. I am quite certain that it is desirable—at least I think it may be desirable—to have a debate before opinions have crystallised, as they will do if the scheme is set out in a White Paper. Although I will certainly accept the noble
  120
  Marquess's suggestion of thinking over the matter again, at the present moment my opinion is that it would be useful to everybody to have a debate at an early date.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: May I add that the noble Marquess who leads the House always rides the House on such a light rein that when he indicates what he wants one would not desire to run counter to it; but I concur with the noble and learned Earl who has just spoken that we should, of course, consult together on this point before the House decides whether or not there should be a debate. Indeed, I should not have joined in asking for the debate had it not been for the fact that the Government did not limit themselves to saying that they were going to present a White Paper, but laid down five principles. I felt that it might be assumed, if the House said nothing, that it agreed to those five principles and thought that, so long as they were observed, all would be well. That fact must be taken into consideration, as well as the matters to which the noble Marquess has referred.

  ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL
  Brought from the Commons; read 1ª, and to be printed.

  BRADFORD CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PRO- VISIONAL ORDER BILL
  3.21 p.m.
  Read 2ª (According to Order).

  LAND DRAINAGE (SURREY COUNTY COUNCIL (RIVE DITCH IMPROVEMENT)) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
  Read 2ª (according to Order).
  WALSALL CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PRO- VISIONAL ORDER BILL
  Read 2ª (according to Order).

  TRANSFER OF FUNCTIONS (MINIS- TRY OF PENSIONS) ORDER, 1953
  3.24 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK rose to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Transfer of Functions (Ministry of Pensions) Order, 1953, reported from Special Orders Committee on Thursday the 11th of June last, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament. The noble Earl said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Salisbury, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper. On February 26 of this year the Prime Minister announced the amalgamation of the Ministry of Pensions and the Ministry of National Insurance and, at the same time, the transfer of certain functions of the Ministry of Pensions to the Ministry of Health and to the Department of Health for Scotland. These proposals were incorporated in detail in the White Paper published on May 13 last, which also included the draft Order to which I am now seeking the approval of this House. Very roughly, the proposals are that the pensions side of the Ministry of Pensions should go to the Ministry of National Insurance (now to be collect the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance) and that the medical services should go to the Departments of Health—that is to say, the Ministry of Health, in England, and the Department of Health for Scotland.
  Anxiety has been expressed among organisations interested in the welfare of ex-Servicemen in regard to the effect of this Order, and it is my special task today to allay such anxiety. I should like at the outset to say that I think it is proper to remember that the majority of members of Her Majesty's Government, and I dare say of this House, are themselves ex-Servicemen, and that they fully endorse the views which have been expressed by successive Governments since 1914: that the country owes to war-disabled and bereaved persons, as is their right and proper due, a special obligation. We would not bring forward these proposals unless the Government were satisfied that they would involve no detriment either to the standing or to the quality of services which will continue to be rendered to ex-Servicemen. In this respect I should like to quote what the
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  Prime Minister said in another place on February 26 (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 511, Col. 2317).
  "On the general question of the pensioners and those who have suffered injuries in the war, we regard it on our side as a matter of honour … that their treatment shall in no circumstances be allowed to deteriorate."
  As I shall endeavour to show, it is fair to say that these people will lose nothing and, indeed, will of obtain a better service in certain particulars.
  Let us look for one moment at the position as it is today. The Ministry of Pensions have existed for thirty-six years, and from quite natural causes the work of that Ministry has tended to diminish. While they once had sixty-seven hospitals they now have eight; while they once had 1,600,000 pensioners, they now have 950,000, of whom nearly 50 per cent. are from the 1914–18 war; and, of course, their numbers are necessarily diminishing. The staff of the Ministry, which in 1921 was 26,000, is now down to 9,000, and even this depends on fairly substantial agency work for the Ministry of Health, particularly in regard to the supply of artificial limbs and other appliances. Of war-disabled pensioners who were in hospital in March, 1953, more than half were in National Health Service hospitals—actually 21,000 were in National Health Service hospitals, and about 14,000 in Ministry of Pensions hospitals. Whilst last year there were something of the order of 3,000 National Health Service patients being treated in Ministry of Pensions hospitals, all war-disabled personnel to-day have the benefit of National Health Service doctors, who in most cases treat them in the first place. So that there is already a very considerable exchange of services between the Departments of Health, on the one hand, and the Ministry of Pensions, on the other.
  My Lords, it is, I think, important in this respect to remember that in a number of the main blocks of pensions work the volume of work has halved, or more than halved, since the peak period after the war, in 1947. For example, the number of boards of all kinds in 1952–53 was 100,000, compared with 200,000 two years previously. If I may give another example, in 1947 there were some 40,000 appeals to Pensions Appeal Tribunals, whereas by 1952 the number had fallen to 13,000. All this shows that the work

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  of the Ministry of Pensions is declining. The broad decisions of policy have now been settled, and there is not the same justification for high-level staff as there was immediately after the war. As an improvement in the machinery of government, there can be no question that the transfer of functions is the right step to take. No one has seriously attempted to deny this. At the same time, the Government are fully aware that certain questions have been put—first, whether this is the right time to do it, and secondly, whether it is being done in a way which gives the fullest safeguards. I should like now to deal with those two questions.
  In regard to timing, I think it is necessary to consider the position of the continuing contraction of the Ministry of Pensions' activities and the implications to other Ministries which are set out in the White Paper. It is intended that these organisational changes will take place gradually; there will be no change in policy; the existing services to pensioners will be fully maintained, and the present pensions staff, and in particular the welfare officers, will continue to be available for this work. At the same time, we must recognise that the National Health Service has now been set up, and the Ministry of National Insurance has got fully into its saddle. When the Ministry was set up in 1944 it had to bring together existing pension schemes, and subsequently had to put into operation the Acts of 1946 and 1948. I think it is fair to assume that the teething troubles of that Ministry are now past. I am not saying that it has not great problems to face—of course it has; but its teething troubles are past. For these reasons, the Government consider that this transference, which is undoubtedly necessary, should be initiated at the present time.
  I will now turn to the second point, the manner in which this amalgamation is to take place. I am aware that a number of organisations interested in ex-Service men are anxious as to whether the rights and preferences at present enjoyed by their members, men and women, will continue to be observed. In the first place, there will be no change at all in the pension arrangements: books will be issued, as at present, at the Posit Office, exactly as they have been in the past. In regard
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  to the general question of rights and preferences, may I take a memorandum which I have received from the British Legion of Scotland, because in this certain specific assurances are asked for, and the memorandum, I think, covers the inquiries of a number of other organisations. I will, with the permission of the House, take the points seriatim. The first question that is asked is: Will the preferential position of war pensioners be maintained? On this, I can say categorically that there will be no change of policy with regard to the existing arrangements. The second question asked is: Will the existing priorities in regard to medical treatment be assured? Here again, I can say categorically that these will not only be preserved but, indeed, extended. The war-disabled who need treatment for their war disabilities will receive priority, not only in the existing pensions hospitals but also in all National Health Service hospitals. This is a very important step indeed, and one which I do not think can be overestimated.
  The third point raised by the British Legion of Scotland is that the Entitlement Section of the Ministry of Pensions should remain a separate entity. I can give a full assurance that this unit will be retained as a separate entity. The fourth point is that the Welfare Services should continue to do their special work. I have already referred to this matter, and I can give a full assurance that the Welfare Services will be fully maintained and the same personnel will be available for the work. The fifth and sixth points deal with treatment at clinics and residential care scheme. These can, I feel sure, be covered by the full consultation which will take place with interested ex-Service organisations. The seventh point is that "there should be adequate representation of ex-Service interests in the management of hospitals." Here, I can give the assurance that it is intended that ex-Service interests shall be represented in the management of pensions hospitals. Perhaps while I am mentioning hospitals I should say a word about Queen Mary's Hospital at Roehampton, which has such a world-wide reputation, and of which we are all so proud. I will confine myself to saying that I believe the House can rest assured that the present Minister of Health (and I think one can assume the same will apply to

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  any of his successors) is fully seized of his special duties with regard to this hospital, and that there will be no changes without full consultation with the governors of the hospital.
  May I now add a word on the question of economy? It is, of course, Government policy to take every opportunity to make such changes in the organisation of Government Departments as will simplify administration and reduce costs. The object of the present proposals, as I have endeavoured to show, is not merely to secure financial economy but to obtain more efficient and orderly administration, from which economy will naturally flow and gradually appear. For example, we have in these two Ministries two large machines for paying pensions—one in Blackpool and one in Newcastle. In both cases, pensions are paid by means of pension order books, the weekly orders being payable at post offices. There will be economies here by bringing these two organisations together, and those economies will not in any way affect adversely those in receipt of pensions. I am asking the House to approve this Motion because it will achieve improvement in the efficiency of the Government machine, which I am sure every noble Lord must regard as a necessary and desirable object. But I will repeat that we should never have made these proposals had not the Government been fully satisfied that they could be carried out without detriment to those of our fellow-citizens who have suffered in the service of their country, and whom we now—and always will—owe so big a debt of gratitude. I beg to move.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Transfer of Functions (Ministry of Pensions) Order, 1953, reported from Special Orders Committee on Thursday the 11th of June last, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  3.37 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, I have not much claim to knowledge of this matter, save this: that I had the great honour of being appointed as the first Minister of National Insurance, and it was my task to try to build up the organisation of that Ministry. Certainly, whilst I was there we had our teething troubles—we had a colossal job to carry out. Fortu-
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  nately, I had to assist me a splendid staff of experienced people, and we managed to get over our teething troubles satisfactorily. I think the work which that Ministry has done, in the organisation it has established, reflects great credit on the staff of people who—unlike me—stayed on in the Ministry. But I do know something about the work of the Ministry of National Insurance, and I am the last person in the world to be likely to denigrate the work of that Ministry. I am proud of it. My work there brought me into close touch with the Ministry of Pensions, and it was obvious that sooner or later the time would come when the Ministry of Pensions would give way to the Ministry of National Insurance. To my mind, this is all a question of t mine, and I, personally, regret that the Government have taken the view that the proper time is now. I think they would have been much better advised to wait to a later date.
  My criterion would be this. I believe you ought, when you effect the transfer, to have the complete confidence of the ex-Servicemen. At the present time, rightly or wrongly, ex-Servicemen are disturbed at what is being done, and, in my view, the mere fact that they are disturbed is, in itself, a reason which proves that this is too early a date to make the alteration which, I agree, sooner or later will have to be made. Had it been left to me, I would have done what I could to postpone this decision for another five years, or perhaps ten. I do not suggest for a moment that the Government are not perfectly sincere in their statement and in their belief that nothing that will be done will prejudice the ex-Servicemen. I accept that statement as a statement of their honest intention and their honest belief. But I am by no means certain that it is right. There is all the difference in the world between having your case looked after by a comparatively small Department where the Minister is really, as it were, the father of his flock, and having it looked after by an enormous Department whose tentacles inevitably extend over the whole country.
  As I have paid a small tribute to the office which I had the honour of starting, let me pay this tribute to the Ministry of Pensions—and it is no Party matter at

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  all: it applies to Ministers of all Parties. I think the record of that Ministry is exceedingly creditable. I am old enough to go back to the Boer War and the Kipling song about tambourines and passing the hat round, and I remember when in the First World War we set up the Ministry of Pensions. The Ministry of Pensions have established a friendly relationship between itself and its clientele, the ex-Service men, which I do not think has ever before been paralleled. Without squandering public money, they have administered in a benevolent and tolerant way the schemes which were entrusted to them, and have won the confidence of the ex-Service men. Now that that Ministry is going to come to an end, I do not wonder that ex-Service men are rather disturbed.
  Of course, the Ministry of National Insurance will do the best they can to see that people are not prejudiced, but, as I have said, there is a difference between being a child in a comparatively small family and a child in a vast school. Incidentally, when I left the Ministry of National Insurance and went to the Lord Chancellor's Office, I came to the conclusion that there was a tremendous advantage in having a small staff instead of a large one, because one is much closer in touch with things. It is exactly the same here. Moreover, if we pitchfork the pensions administration into the general administration, is there not a real danger that the personal treatment which has existed in the past, and of which I do not think we need complain, will cease? Administration will become a matter of routine and all will be treated alike.
  Of course, ultimately there would be some possible saving, and economy is greatly to be desired, but do not let us put it too high. The White Paper itself merely says:
  "This should yield substantial economies in the long run."
  I hope it will. Had we been perfectly free in this matter and had it not been passed upon, I should have been of the opinion that it was a mistake to do it now. I think it would have been much better not to have done it until we had the good wishes and goodwill of the ex-Service men. Although we accept all that the Government say, that there will be no
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  prejudice, I am not certain that prejudice may not arise in administration. For my part I regret that the present moment is the moment selected for this change, though I admit that obviously the time will come when a change must be made. However, another place has decided this matter, and unless I hear very cogent reasons to the contrary I suppose there is nothing we can do now but accept the decision.
  3.44 p.m.
  LORD CAREW: My Lords, those of us who are deeply interested in ex-Service work, and who are working day after day for the benefit of ex-Service men and their relatives and widows, view this merger with the gravest concern. We fully accept the assurance given by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, as to the intentions of the Government, but, as the noble and learned Earl the Leader of the Opposition has so rightly said, this is a question of administration; and, moreover, administration of a type touching individuals. It is the personal touch, from top to bottom, which has earned the Ministry of Pensions the solid regard and appreciation with which the ex-Service community feel they can approach the Ministry.
  When it comes to matters of public expenditure, of course the interest of economy is at all times a paramount one, but surely this is not the right Ministry to tackle when it comes to saving a comparatively small sum in a way which, as I hope to show your Lordships, cannot fail to reduce the confidence of the ex-Service man in the fact that he is going to get a square deal. Successive Ministers of Pensions and their staffs have earned the very high regard in which they stand to-day. The people with whom the pensioners and war widows come into contact are the lower civil servants of the Ministry, to whom they go when they want something. These officials have been educated to a sympathetic understanding of their problems. The code under which they work is one which has been developed to a high level, and they have learned to understand it through case work. The whole of pensions law has grown up through case work. That is very different from social security. The work of the Ministry of National Insurance is not case work. Should this Motion be agreed,

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  and should this merger take place, officials of the Ministry of National Insurance will have to deal at one moment with insurance cases and at the next with war pension cases, the same official dealing with different types of people under two totally different codes. Of course, he will do his best, but both these codes are intricate, and his main consideration will be with the National Insurance code. He will not find it easy to exercise his full sympathy, his full understanding and his full knowledge in cases of war pensions. That is what we fear, and we fear that, irrespective of good intention, that is what will happen.
  In this connection, a particularly disturbing factor is that the present Ministry of Pensions officials who are in day-today contact with the pensioners are largely temporary civil servants. Although they have been in that work for many years, they have not been absorbed into permanent functions. They are the individual officers to whom the ex-Serviceman looks, and who he considers understands him and his problems. If this merger takes place, and the Ministry of Pensions is absorbed, these temporary officials will be the ones who will go when there is a question of any contraction of staff. They will be replaced by permanent officials who are on the staff of the Ministry of Pensions and who have not the background of training in the pensions code—and not only of training in the pensions code, but of training in the sympathetic approach to the individual claimant. That is what we fear above all.
  Then there is another important point—namely, the matter of the Minister himself. The ex-Serviceman and the widow have come to look upon the Minister of Pensions as their own personal advocate in the highest circles. When they have a problem, they have someone to whom they can put it forward in a direct manner, someone who has not got other interests on his mind. That is one of the things which causes a considerable degree of contentment, and it is something which the ex-Serviceman will miss greatly. I am glad to hear from the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, that the Government have no intention of interfering with the special obligations which the nation owes to ex-Servicemen, and have no intention but
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  that the fullest safeguards of their rights and privileges should continue. However, for the reasons which I have advanced, I very much doubt whether, in practice, they will continue. I regret that on this occasion I cannot accept the assurances of the Government.
  3.52 p.m.
  VISCOUNT HUDSON: My Lords, perhaps your Lordships will bear with me for a few moments while I make a contribution, arising out of the fact that I was for a time Minister of Pensions. Speaking from my experience in that capacity, I would venture to challenge the view put forward by the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, that this is not the right time for an amalgamation. I am not concerned with the amount of saving—I do not think a figure of £500,000 is either here or there; I am concerned with the interests of the ex-Servicemen and the efficiency of the machinery dealing with them. Those of your Lordships who have had experience of being in Government Departments would agree with me, I believe, that the most important thing in obtaining the efficiency of an individual Government Department is to establish in that Department a high sense of morale. From a fairly wide experience of Government Departments, I feel that the morale of the people in the Department is probably the most important thing with which any Minister can concern himself. With a high morale you have an efficient and, above all, a sympathetic administration, whereas if it is absent, you get an entirely wooden, strict, bureaucratic state of affairs. Human nature being what it is, it is almost inevitable that if you hive a Department like the Ministry of Pensions, which by the very nature of things is a dying Department, it is almost impossible, however good the Minister is, and however sympathetic the officials are, to avoid a loss of morale. In the first place, it is difficult to obtain entry of the younger men in the Civil Service into a Department which they know in the normal course of events will not provide them with any permanent future. It is for that reason that I venture to say that this is the time, eight years after the end of the war, rather than in ten years' time, eighteen years after the end of the war,

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  when this change, which has got to come anyhow, ought to be made.
  I was Minister of Pensions in 1935, seventeen years after the end of the First World War—just about the same interval of time that the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, would like to see elapse before this amalgamation takes place—and there was no question in my mind that all my Ministerial predecessors had done their best for the sake of the ex-Servicemen, and that they had been loyally supported by their permanent officials. But the mere fact that it was a dying Department meant that, inevitably, the officials had got into set ways, and it required a great effort to infuse a different spirit. After all, the requirements of the ex-Servicemen are not necessarily static. We cannot say to-day what the conditions will be in five, ten or fifteen years' time. We cannot tell to-day to what extent their physical conditions are going to alter, or to what extent the social conditions which their children and wives are going to have to meet will change. I am convinced, from this particular point of view of the efficiency of the Department itself, that now is the time to change.
  I pay full tribute to the work of the temporary civil servants, but anyone who has been in a Department, or head of a Department, where temporary civil servants work, knows that from the very nature of things they get older and older. What is required in a Department, for its good running, is a continual bringing in of the younger element, who learn from the experience and teaching of their temporary civil servant elders to be sympathetic—and if they are not, then the Minister at the head of the Department ought to make certain that he gets rid of them. I believe that it is essential to have this continual influx of younger men. Whether in the administrative grade, the executive grade or in the doctors grade, you want continual new ideas and new blood coming in, always inspired, as I am sure both Departments are, with the idea of service and of rendering to these men what we all recognise is their undoubted due, which we all want to see come about. I venture, from my experience, to assure the noble Lord, Lord Carew, that his apprehensions are ill-founded. I believe that once the Depart-
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  ments are merged—and do not forget they will have separate Parliamentary Secretaries—there will not be these difficulties. On the contrary, looking forward to the next ten or fifteen years, when, as I have said, the needs of the ex-Servicemen may be even greater than they are now, I believe that the new Department will be more efficient, and will have greater resources, than if the present Ministry of Pensions were allowed to die in the next seventeen or eighteen years.
  3.59 p.m.
  VISCOUNT LONG: My Lords, I feel in a difficult position, because my two loyalties are strained: my loyalty to my noble Leader, and my loyalty to my Legion. I have the honour to be the chief executive officer of ninety-four branches in my county, with over 16,000 paid-up members. It has been stated that this case has not been put properly to the members of the Legion. I can assure your Lordships that, so far as my county is concerned, they had a perfectly free vote on the question, and they are very disturbed at this amalgamation. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carew, and the noble and learned Earl, the Leader of the Opposition, that we shall lose the personal touch by this amalgamation. I notice that the Ministry with which the Ministry of Pensions are to be amalgamated have 900branches as against eighty of the Ministry of Pensions. I am wondering whether the noble Marquess, when he winds up this debate, could tell me whether it is proposed to use the 900 offices of the other Ministry to deal with the pensioners in those areas, or whether, under an Under-Secretary, the present organisation with the same staff will be allowed to continue to deal with the pensioners' problems as at the present time. I cannot see that happening. Like the noble Lord, Lord Carew, I believe that eventually the members of the staff who have, so to speak, "grown up" with this great Ministry of Pensions to whom we owe so much, and also the Ministers who have been at the head, will be swamped by the men from the Ministry of National Insurance. I am hoping that something can be done to relieve our feelings in this matter. Otherwise the personal touch will be lost. Possibly the noble Marquess can give an assurance that the transfer will be carried through

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  very slowly, in order that the personal touch may be kept.
  I suppose, as has already been said by the Leader of the Opposition, we can do nothing about the matter in your Lordships' House. I must say that if it went to a Division, I should vote against this Motion, first, because I believe profoundly that this is the wrong moment, and, secondly, because I have the authority of my members, without any direction from me at all, to try to put their anxiety before your Lordships. But if there is to be no Division I ask my noble Leader to allow me to keep myself free to watch this situation very carefully. There is grave anxiety over this amalgamation, not only among the members of the British Legion but in practically all the ex-Service associations in the country. I repeat that I must leave myself free to watch, and, if we are not satisfied, to try in every possible way to persuade Her Majesty's Government to do something to alter the situation which we believe will take place: a situation in which these men will lose confidence in this great Ministry of Pensions, because it will be swamped in the new Ministry. I myself believe that that will happen.
  4.3 p.m.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I feel subject to the same conflict of loyalties that my noble friend Lord Long has just expressed. Like my noble friend, at the present time I am an office bearer in my own county branch of the British Legion, and I have held various offices ever since my own branch was taken over, over thirty years ago, from the Comrades of the Great War. But here I differ from my noble friends Lord Long and Lord Carew. Despite the anxieties which we in the Legion feel, I do not think that we are justified in opposing the Motion before the House. With your Lordships' leave I hope to explain why I take that view.
  I believe that it would be quite wrong if one tried to conceal from one's noble friends on the Front Bench that there is a great deal of anxiety in the Legion. A great deal of that anxiety arises from a matter which has not been touched upon so far in this debate, though it was, I think, touched upon in another place. It is that the Legion, as everybody knows, have applied to two successive Govern-
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  ments for an increase in the basic rate of disability pensions, but up to now have met with no success. This is no time to discuss the merits of that case, and I should not be in order if I attempted to do so. But the fact that those demands—as the Legion consider, absolutely just demanls—have not been met, has brought about a state of mind in the Legion which is very material to their attitude on this problem. They feel that they have been turned down by the Party opposite; that they have been turned down so far by the Party on this side. In effect, therefore, they say, "A plague o' both your houses!" I am not associating myself with that view, but that is the view taken by the plain men in blue suits who go to British Legion conferences. Your Lordships may say that it is not unreasonable that they should take that view, having regard to the position they are in at those conferences.
  When, therefore, a matter of this sort comes before Parliament and before the public, it is not unreasonable that opinion in the Legion should tend, as a first reaction, to be suspicious, and to say. "Here is another assault on the charter of ex-Servicemen which was laid down in 1920 and as a result of which the Ministry of Pensions was formed. Is this not another attempt to chisel away the special status of ex-Servicemen and to bring us entirely in line with the procedure for dealing with industrial injuries and so forth, and is this not a thing to be resisted on that ground? If we allowed this to pass without any protest we should in fact be selling the pass." So far so good. But it is at this point that I must part company from the line of argument followed by my noble friend Lord Carew and other people, because, if I may borrow a phrase which was used earlier this afternoon by my noble Leader, I think this approach to the problem, as he put it in another connection, is "as much emotional as purely objective."
  There is one other thing to be mentioned about this matter, and that is the very understandable fear on the part of members of the Legion that anything will happen to the present set-up of the Ministry of Pensions. Several noble Lords have paid tribute this afternoon to the work not only of the headquarters of the

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  Ministry but of their local representatives—a tribute to what I might call the "over the counter work" of the Ministry of Pensions. I should like to associate myself very strongly with that tribute, because there is no doubt that the Ministry of Pensions have earned the good will of the ex-Service community by their expert handling of the problem in a way which is quite out of the common when one is talking of Government Departments. It is most important that that fund of good will, which has been built up by the Ministry of Pensions over the last thirty years, should not be lost but should be continued.
  Now let us come to the second point. Are we going to achieve any of these objects by opposing the Motion now before the House? I do not think so. In the first place, several assurances have been given. When this matter was first brought to the notice of this House by my noble friend Lord Swinton on February 26, I anticipated what would happen, and I asked the noble Viscount whether he would bear in mind how important it was that this amalgamation should not be allowed to affect the claims for improvements in the rates of pensions which were then going forward. My noble friend Lord Swinton—as your Lordships will see in Hansard, if you care to turn it up—met me as far as he possibly could without committing the Government, which of course he could not do on a supplementary question. He said that certainly the claims would not be prejudiced in one way or another.
  What is the fact of the matter over this? Surely, it is that the broad question of the treatment of ex-Servicemen does not really depend on the behaviour of the Ministry of Pensions or of the officials in it: it depends on the policy of Her Majesty's Government, whatever that Government may be. If the Government or the Cabinet wish to give ex-Servicemen a fair deal they will decide to do so, and they will see that the Ministry of Pensions have orders in that direction; and the Minister will see that his staff get the necessary instructions. If on the other hand—let us hope that this is an impossible state of affairs: I am sure that it is—the Government were not in favour of giving a square deal to ex-Servicemen, then it would not matter what the staff
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  of the Ministry of Pensions were like, because nothing would happen.
  For this reason I fail to see how opposing this Motion will help the cause of the ex-Servicemen—we shall see in a moment what would help that cause. But we have the case that has been put forward by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and endorsed by my noble friend Lord Hudson, with his experience as Minister of Pensions, that the merger of the two Ministries is at the moment technically justified. If we do not make this merger at the present time, we are told, the administration of pensions, owing to certain factors connected with the structure as regards the staff, will gradually decay; there will be a vicious spiral, because it will not be possible in the ordinary Civil Service way to get recruits. There is, of course, a fence to be taken here. There is a moment when the transfer, if it is made, will cause all the dangers referred to by Lord Carew and Lord Long; but that is a position that will have to arise at some time or other. I understood the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, to say that in the end a change will have to take place; and I do not see that anything will be lost by making the change now, before the quality of the administration of the Ministry of Pensions has deteriorated—which, in my judgment, at the moment it has not.
  It may be wrong—I believe it is—not to have conceded the increases in pensions. I think it is also wrong that we should attempt to oppose this Motion; and two wrongs do not make a right. I do not feel that by opposing this Motion we should advance in any respect the cause of the British Legion. But I hope my noble friend in front of me will be able to give the most abundant assurances that can possibly be given to the British Legion, and to all those societies which work with the Legion. Most of those assurances have already been given by Lord Selkirk, but if this transfer takes place, as I believe it should, let it take place in such a way that the British Legion knows that on all sides of this House—and particularly on this side, because here lies responsibility for the administration of the Ministry of Pensions at present—there is every intention that the rights of ex-Servicemen, which are so jealously guarded by the Legion, are fully maintained and are not to be prejudiced in any particular by this amalgamation of Ministries. And, of course, of all

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  these assurances by far the best assurance which can be given would be that the claim of ex-Servicemen for an increase in disability pensions would be treated in a favourable manner. That, I appreciate, cannot be given at the present stage.
  4.15 p.m.
  LORD JEFFREYS: My Lords, like other noble Lords I have been approached on this matter by the British Legion of which I am myself a member. I recognise and admire the work of the Legion for ex-Servicemen and I agree entirely with the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, that assurances should be given to the Legion that the interests of ex-Servicemen will always be kept very high indeed in the policy of this or of any other Government. I am also an ex-member of the Ministry of Pensions Advisory Committee, and I am interested in pension matters generally. I wonder, however, whether the opposition to this merger is justified, for the proposal as it appears is a matter of machinery in distributing pensions—not of rates of pension, services to pensioners, or any matters of that kind.
  The ideal might be to have pensions administered by some organisation other than a Ministry—something much more non-official. Government official; are not, as a rule—and it would be difficult for them to be—wholly sympathetic and kindly to those with whom they deal: I fully recognise that such an ideal is impossible and would be quite impracticable. The Ministry of Pensions has been most human and much more sympathetic in its dealing with pensioners in the last few years. I would venture to put the improvement as beginning during the régime as Minister of Mr. Buchanan, who was particularly sympathetic himself, and practical as well, in his dealings with pensioners. Since 1947 there has been a great decline in the number of pensioners and a corresponding decline in the number of the Ministry staff and officials. I am told that there are now only eight Ministry of Pensions hospitals in existence. I believe I am right in saying that in 1921 there were between sixty and seventy such hospitals.
  Pensioners even now use the National Health Service very largely, and the work of the Ministry of National Insurance is in many ways analogous to that of the Ministry of Pensions. For instance, in its work it deals with the industrially dis-
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  abled, whilst the Ministry of Pensions deals with the war disabled; and, of course, most war pensioners, being insured persons, are dealt with now by the Ministry of National Insurance. If they are sick or unemployed they are entitled to benefit, and some, for instance, are entitled to old age pensions. Would it not be simpler, better and cheaper if one Ministry were to deal with all these matters? Obviously, to begin with, the numbers of the staff of that Ministry would have to be increased; and many of those accustomed to Seal with Service disability pensions would be transferred to the Ministry of National Insurance for that purpose. Surely that is the answer, at any rate to some extent, to the idea that new men would be sealing with pension matters and that those new men would be unsympathetic towards the pensioners and all their concerns.
  As it is, the Ministry of Pensions, I believe, already acts as agents of the Ministry of Health for the supply of artificial limbs and surgical appliances for civilian patients; so that already it is not entirely concerned with Service patients. Then, the Ministry of National Insurance has about 900 offices up and down the country, as compared with some ninety offices of the Ministry of Pensions. This must make dealings with the Ministry by pensioners very much simpler for those who are living in the numerous districts which have not at present a Ministry of Pensions office but which are not far from a Ministry of National Insurance office.
  The British Legion contend that this proposed merger will result in a lowering of status of war pensioners and in abolishing any preference for Service over non-Service pensioners. I feel that those objections are very illusory indeed. I doubt if most of us feel that. If the British Legion would devote their energies to pressing for higher rates of war disability pensions—I know they have pressed for this, but they should devote most of their energies to it rather than to protesting against the proposed machinery for distributing pensions—they would have a stronger case; and I, for one, would certainly support them to the utmost of my ability. I think we are all agreed that there are at present too many

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  Government Departments. When I say "we are all agreed," I mean that those noble Lords who are not themselves connected with Government Departments are agreed. It seems to me that this proposed merger is a logical and sensible step to take to reduce Government Departments. I cannot see that anyone will be one penny the worse for it, and the result ought to be simpler, cheaper and no less efficient administration.
  If the argument is that the present officials understand and deal more sympathetically with pension matters, surely that argument is met by the fact that, as I have already suggested, there must be transfers from the Ministry of Pensions, in the first place, to deal with pension matters in the Ministry of National Insurance. Another contention of the British Legion is that ex-Servicemen are disturbed by the proposal. It is possible that that is the case, but I am not certain that those ex-Service men would have been disturbed if it had not been suggested to them from quite other quarters that there was some threat to them and to their interests. As regards this proposal, I would merely conclude by saying that my support goes to the Government, and I believe that the proposal is, on the whole, both sound and sensible.
  4.23 p.m.
  THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, it was not my intention to address your Lordships' House on this subject, but there is one point of view which has not been touched upon so far. I am entirely in favour of the view that, although the Ministries may have to be merged in future, the present is the most unfortunate time to do it. I take that view for the reasons given by the noble and learned Earl who leads the Opposition in this House, and put by him very much better than I can attempt to do so. However, there is one other point I wish to make. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, seemed to make a claim for this side of the House—to which I do not belong; I am standing here merely for the convenience of speaking—for their good record in the past. I do not hesitate to say that, if one comes to analyse the position, one finds that it is the Party of noble Lords on the other side who, when they were in power, did more for
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  the pensioners than any other Government have done.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I hope that I did not make the suggestion that one side of the House was more forward than another in advocating the cause of ex-Servicemen, because I do not think I did. However, if the noble and gallant Earl will read the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow, I do not think he will find me reported as having said that.
  LORD HAWKE: Has the noble and gallant Earl taken into account the very heavy fall in the value of the pound since the steps taken by the Party of noble Lords opposite?
  THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: I am trying to get what the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, said. To continue now with what I was trying to say before I was interrupted, at the present moment the record of the Government as regards ex-Servicemen's organisations is not a very good one. Your Lordships will remember that the request for a new basic rate for the disabled pensioner was turned down. When the modest sum of 90s. a week was asked for, nothing like that was granted. Then in January the noble Lord, Lord Jeffreys, introduced in this House a Motion on the subject of officers' pensions. The noble Lord, Lord Schuster, the other day, in a speech which I am sure earned him the gratitude of the Services, again brought up the same subject. Each time, the request made has been turned down with the use of some highfalutin phrase such as the "spiral of inflation." The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, on the other side said that that was ridiculous, that the sum asked for could not cause a "spiral of inflation." We had this again quite recently when we were told of the "danger of inflation," the "risk of repercussions" and various other phrases of that sort. We were told that we ought to recognise the fact that the Government's first object was financial stability, and that we must all hold our hands and not do anything to interfere with that.
  The consequence of all that is that a large number of ex-Servicemen think that the Government are saving on them, and this merger will add to that feeling. These men live all over the country among other men. Claims have been made for £200 million more wages in the

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  various industries, not for greater production, because there has not been greater production; not for working longer hours, because at least in one case along with the claim for increased wages, there is also a claim for a reduction of hours. And these pensioners are living with the men making these claims. We know that the Government will give in, to some extent, and that some of those millions asked will go into the wage packets. It will not cause any greater production. Those men will simply keep quiet for a few months, and then more wage claims will be put in. Yet these men who are disabled are grudged that little sum for which they are asking. All this money is being paid away purely because the Government are not strong enough to dig their toes in and say, "You do not go any further; that is all that can be afforded by the country, and you have got to be content with it."
  I believe that this moment is ill-chosen to effect this merger because we have not yet attained financial stability. When we have financial stability, then will be the time to go into all these matters. Until we have a Government—I say a National Government—which is strong enough really to produce an economic policy, a wage policy which will be fair to everybody and will give the country a chance of getting on its feet again, let us do away with this scheme; let us stop tinkering with it. Look at what became of the merging of other Ministries. A merger may be an excellent thing in itself but, when it is reduced to this, what does it save?—nothing in the first few years, and perhaps £500,000 later on. A Ministry itself loses its status by it. In another place we were told of the handicap which a Minister who is not a member of the Cabinet suffers by having to get a Parliamentary Secretary to look after pensions. The Secretary has to convince his Minister, and the Minister has to convince the Cabinet. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still, and if a Minister has to be urged on by his subordinates and goes to the Cabinet, he will make a very poor advocate. I suggest that this merger might well be put off for five years. Nobody can say for certain that in five years we shall not be badly wanting a Ministry of Pensions. To-day, we are building up
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  armaments but scrapping the Ministry of Pensions.
  4.30 p.m.
  LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess a question before he replies? I understand that the existing special pensioners' hospitals of the Ministry of Pensions are to be handed over. I ask about that with interest, because I have worked in connection with the Ministry of Pensions—I have been one of the doctors who have examined and looked after the men, and I know how very valuable these special institutions have been. The hospital at Roehampton, to which one speaker referred, has a world-wide reputation. It is an extraordinarily good place and I hope there is no question whatsoever of its being liquidated. I assume that nearly all the Ministry of Pensions hospitals will be handed over and will continue their excellent functions as at the present time. I hope, too, that if any special services are required, they will be provided in co-operation and in consultation with the doctors at those institutions.
  I refer to this aspect of the matter partly from the point of view of the doctors who are concerned. A very important thing in the lives of the pensioners, and also from the point of view of the Ministry, has been the excellent medical service, as well as the excellent administrative service, which has been given. My own mind is evenly balanced between the possibilities. It might be of some advantage to keep the present organisation going for some time; but if these institutions, which are essentially characteristic of the Ministry of Pensions and have been so for some years, and which have done so much good for the pensioners, are to continue, I do not see that there is any particular objective in putting off the change for any lengthy period of time.
  4.32 p.m.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I think it will be generally agreed by everybody who has listened to this debate that it has been an extremely valuable one. In any case, I can assure your Lordships that the Government have welcomed it, because, after all, if any of us has anxieties on one point or another it is far better to have them out and get them answered—indeed, that is one of the main functions for which Parliament

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  exists. The thing that struck me above all others throughout this debate, as I listened to it, was the tremendous implied tribute that has been paid to the Ministry of Pensions. I think in every speech an impression has been given of the entire satisfaction which has been felt by noble Lords, in every part of the House and belonging to every Party, as to the past administration of pensions, and an equal regret that the administration is not to go on under the same Department and on the same lines.
  That, of course, is perhaps partly due to a feeling of natural conservatism, with a small "c," which is, I think, common to all British people. On the whole, we like what we have got. But it is due, too, I think, in an extremely large degree, to the admirable and sympathetic spirit with which the Ministry and successive Ministers of Pensions, of all Parties, have carried out their duties. Therefore, I entirely agree that it is not unnatural that some noble Lords should ask why this change is being made—what has happened to make it necessary. The reasons, as your Lordships know, have already been given to the House pretty fully by my noble friend Lord Selkirk, and I am only going to recapitulate them quite shortly. In a word, they are: first, efficiency; and second, economy. I may say that I put those two deliberately in that order, for I think we shall all agree with what was said by Lord Carew in his speech, that in a matter of this kind efficiency must come first in importance.
  In saying what I have, I am not, of course, suggesting for one moment to your Lordships that there has been any inefficiency in the Ministry of Pensions. To put it quite simply, it is really that times have changed. With the passage of time since the end of the last war, the number of pensioners is steadily decreasing, and the administrative machinery of the Ministry of Pensions must inevitably be reduced with that reduction in numbers, if it is not to become largely redundant. I think that even the noble Lord, Lord Carew, who took perhaps the strongest line in this debate, would not dispute that general proposition. As my right honourable friend the Minister of Pensions said in another place, during the last three years, so far as hospital treatment is concerned, the needs have been
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  reduced by one quarter; so far as medical boarding is concerned in the last two years, by a half; and the appeals during the last six years have been reduced by no less than two-thirds.
  Of course, with a reduction in the requirements there has to be a reduction in the services. There were as I think the noble Lord, Lord Jeffreys, said, upwards of sixty-seven Ministry of Pensions hospitals. Those have already been reduced to eight, and it is becoming more and more difficult to justify some of the smaller local offices. The number of pensioners does not justify keeping them open at all; and yet, my Lords, without them, the personal attention to individual cases would, of course, not he the same as it always has been. I think it was the noble Viscount, Lord Long, who said in his speech that he was afraid that by amalgamation we might lose the personal touch. I am afraid that inevitably, if there is not this amalgamation. we may also lose the personal touch owing to the inevitable reduction in the number of local offices. I am sure that point will be clear to him.
  The noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, in his very thoughtful speech, said that this was a slowly dying Department, but that it is a dying Department. Conditions have entirely changed since the Ministry originally took over its work. We believe—and I suggest that the objective case is unanswerable—that the change will make for greater efficiency, as well as for a saving of money.
  The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, expressed doubts about the timing. He did not, as I understand, question that this might have to be done one day, but he asked, "Why now"? He said that if he were in power he would have put it off. Well, my Lords, I do not really doubt that because, although I do not want to say anything at all controversial, during the last two years, in the course of the many topics which we have had to discuss, noble Lords opposite have suggested that panacea whenever the Government have had to take rather awkward and difficult decisions. The Opposition have always said that it would be wiser to put off the matter, but the Government believe that on occasions it is the right thing to grasp the nettle and take their courage in both hands. And I believe that this is one of those occasions.
  EARL JOWITT: It has been the complaint that we have done too much, that we have rushed in foolishly and done those things which we ought not to have done. May I ask for an illustration of the noble Marquess's statement?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The noble and learned Earl will remember our discussions in connection with the return of Seretse Khama and in regard to Central African Federation. I could produce quite a long list if the noble and learned Earl would give me time. He has made an identical speech on several occasions.
  In many cases, of course, this change will, I hope and think, hardly be noticed. I assure the House, as I think my noble friend Lord Selkirk has already done, that the change will inevitably be a gradual one. In answer to what was said by Lord Long, I should say that, as I understand the position, it will still be open to pensioners to go to the eighty existing offices, if they wish, and to see the same people that they saw before. But they will, equally, be able to go to 900 other offices of the Ministry of National Insurance if they prefer it. What is more, their appeals will be heard by the same people who heard those appeals before. I would add also, with regard to the question asked by Lord Haden-Guest, that the hospitals will, of course, go on, and will be run, I understand, directly under the Ministry of Health. They will not come under regional boards but will be directly under the Ministry of Health. There is no question, of course, of scrapping the whole staff of the Ministry of Pensions. To a great extent, after the change, while they are needed the same people will be doing the same jobs. That, I think, is an answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carew, when he said, as I understood him, that some officials would be required to deal with completely different cases. That, as I understand it, will not be the position. In a great many of these cases, the same officials as before will deal with the cases. There will be simplification of the machinery, but personnel will not—immediately, at any rate—alter. What will happen is that a certain amount of overlapping which inevitably has occurred should, and I think will, now be avoided.
  I do not want to keep the House too long over this question. I have, I think,
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  given your Lordship, quite briefly, the argument for the change which the Government propose. In conclusion, and in answer to what has been said by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and other noble Lords, I should like to give this assurance on behalf of the Government. It is our firm resolve that nothing shall be done which might be to the detriment of ex-Servicemen. That, I think, is clear from the fact that priority will continue to be given to the war-disabled, both in the Ministry of Pensions' hospitals which remain and in the National Health Service hospitals as well. As my right honourable friend the Minister of Pensions made clear in another place, all the rights, privileges and priorities of ex-Servicemen will be preserved. All statutory responsibilities and discretionary powers possessed by the Ministry of Pensions will be handed over to the Ministers who are now to administer these services. I honour—and I am sure we all honour—the anxieties which have been expressed by the British Legion and others over this proposal. It is a sign of their continuing and anxious care for ex-Servicemen. But nearly all of us in the Government are ex-Servicemen too, from one war or another. We share the feeling and the sense of responsibility of the British Legion and others, and I can assure your Lordships that it will still be our object to see that ex-Servicemen will not only not suffer but, I hope, will even benefit by the change that is now being made.
  I hope very much, therefore, that the noble Lords, Lord Carew and Lord Long, who feel—and I quite understand their feeling—a sincere anxiety and preoccupation over this matter will follow the advice which has been given them in this debate by Lord Bridgeman and Lord Jeffreys. There could after all, be no doughtier or more experienced champions of ex-Servicemen that those two noble Lords. I feel certain that, even if Lord Carew doubts, not, I hope, the good will of the Government, but our wisdom, he will feel no such doubts about the two noble Lords to whom I have referred. I hope noble Lords will not seek to divide the House on this issue. To do so, I think might give the impress onto ex-Servicemen that dangers were to be apprehended in the new machinery which I am sure do not in fact exist. That would be a thousand pities. For that reason I ask the

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  House to accept the counsel that has been given to it, and to allow this Order to go forward without any more ado.
  On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

  SCHOOL CROSSING PATROLS BILL
  4.46 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Lloyd.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
  Clause 1 [Arrangements for patrolling school crossings]:
  EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
  "(3) The functions of the appropriate authority for the purpose of arrangements under subsection (1) of this section shall include the duty to satisfy themselves of the adequate qualifications of persons appointed to patrol and to provide requisite training of persons to be appointed."
  The noble Earl said: On behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, who has been detained and is unable to get to the House, I beg to move this Amendment which stands in his name. The purpose of the Amendment is to follow up something that was said in the Second Reading debate. It was made clear that some safeguards were needed with regard to the qualification and training of the personnel of school crossing patrols. This Amendment calls for the appropriate authority to take account of these needs. It is presumed that the local authorities concerned will consult with the central Government authorities who will be able to give advice and lay down common standards which the patrols will have to attain. I am afraid that I have not explained the Amendment very well, but it is not mine. I have given the best explanation I can, and with that I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 20, at end insert the said subsection.—(Earl Howe).
  LORD LLOYD: On the Second Reading of the Bill there was expressed in all parts of the House anxiety—and if I may say so quite proper anxiety—about the selection and training of the patrols who will operate under this Bill, and I said on that occasion that the Government themselves were concerned that those selected should be suitable people and that the training should be as good as we could make it. This Amendment, which I am pleased to accept, does something to indicate to all concerned the importance which the Government attach to the selection and training of the persons who will operate these controls. I can give my noble friend the further assurance that after the Bill has become law the Government will certainly draw the attention of local authorities to the best practice now obtaining so far as training is concerned. I have much pleasure in accepting my noble friend's Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2 agreed to.
  4.49 p.m.
  LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, after Clause 2, to insert the following new clause:
  Agreements with respect to scholar patrols
  ".—(1) An appropriate authority and the education authority for any school in the area of that appropriate authority may enter into and carry into effect agreements with the object of encouraging the formation of a scholar patrol for the school by providing such instruction, equipment and other assistance as may be required for the purpose.
  (2) In this section a scholar patrol means a body of senior scholars in a school selected by the headmaster of the school and suitably trained and appointed to guide the junior scholars of the school when crossing roads on the way to or from school and to protect them against the risk of harm by passing vehicles,"
  The noble Lord said: The purpose of my Amendment is to give the appropriate authorities a permissive power to encourage the formation of scholar patrols. There is, in fact, as I realise, nothing in the Bill at the moment to prevent the formation of scholar patrols, but this Amendment is intended to draw more attention to these patrols, and to leave the Bill so far as they are concerned in rather a more positive condition. I should point out that there would be no

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  duplication of the crossing patrols by scholar patrols. They are different systems; but I think they would be complementary to each other. The scholar patrol would be an alternative to the crossing patrol. It would operate where there were no police and where the local authority found it too expensive to set up a crossing patrol. The local authorities, education authorities and local police are the arbiters of whether a scholar patrol should come into action or not.
  The purpose of this kind of patrol is not to stop traffic; it is for the purpose only of controlling children at a crossing. A senior pupil chosen for the purpose would be in charge of the crossing. He or she would be on duty not more than once a week, and only when the children were either going to school or leaving school; so the patrol would not miss any lessons. Probably the scholar patrol would wear an armband so that he would be easily recognisable by motorists. The advantage of the pupil-controlled crossing is that it teaches schoolchildren a sense of responsibility and of the dancers of the road, which children learn more readily from someone nearer their own age than from a grown-up.
  I realise that this is a comparatively new idea in the United Kingdom and, like all novelties, may cause a certain amount of suspicion about its efficiency and the possible danger involved; but, as my noble friend Lord Howe said on Second Reading, it is already widely adopted in other countries—in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Switzerland, Finland and the United States of America. This kind of patrol is already in operation in this country, at Chesham, Buckinghamshire, where I understand those concerned with it are very Pleased with the way it has been working but other noble Lords may say more about that patrol later on. I believe that local authorities need encouragement to start up scholar patrols and that encouragement must come from Her Majesty's Government. It may be that as there is no power in the Bill to prevent the setting up of these patrols, in ether words, without his Amendment they could still legally be organised—the Government may decide that my Amendment is unnecessary. If so, I hope they will realise that it is their duty to encourage local
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  authorities to set up these patrols. Anything that can help to cut down accidents on the road, particularly accidents to children, should not be neglected.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 2 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)
  VISCOUNT PORTMAN: I should like to tell your Lordships something about a scholar patrol that is now in action in this country. The other day I had an opportunity of visiting Chesham, close to my home, and of contacting the officers of the Automobile Association for the purpose of seeing this patrol work. I can assure your Lordships that I have never seen an area more suitable for a demonstration of this sort. Imagine a very-steep hill, of, say, 1 in 7, with two acute S-bends; two entrance from the school, one towards the top of the hill and one down hill; a railway station, goods yard and brewery, with heavy traffic coming in and out all the time; and at the bottom of the hill, a turning into the Chesham-Buckingham road, along which heavy traffic comes all the time. The scholar patrol has been at work for nine years, and not one single accident has been recorded during that time. I had a long talk with the local police officers and with the very open-minded schoolmistress who initiated this patrol. I was pleased to see that there was a simplicity and unhurried method of approach to this problem which I never thought possible in younger children. The police admitted that it would have caused them an enormous amount of trouble to go into this problem thoroughly, and they reckon that the headmistress has done something for which the local authority owe her a deep debt of gratitude. I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, to ask the Minister of Transport to consider sending a representative to see this patrol at work. I should be only too pleased, if a date could be arranged, to take somebody from the Ministry ever to meet Miss Dyer and see the whole thing in operation. I feel that this is something which should be included in the school curriculum. It would add greatly to children's sense of self-preservation. It would save lives, time and local expense if this matter could be taken up thoroughly. I hope the Government will give this matter the deepest attention.
  LORD LLOYD: The Amendment which has been moved by my noble friend Lord Fairfax of Cameron was, I think, almost killed by the noble Lord himself, when he said that it was irrelevant to the Bill.
  LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: I did not say "irrelevant"; I said that it added to the powers already in the Bill.
  LORD LLOYD: I think my noble friend and I mean the same thing. As my noble friend said in moving his Amendment, there is no question of scholar patrols controlling traffic, and there is nothing which prevents any local authority from organising a scholar patrol should they so desire. This is borne out by the fact that a scholar patrol is already in existence at Chesham. I do not feel that I can accept this Amendment, because it seeks to do something which is unnecessary. The power is already there.
  In regard to the principle which the noble Lord has advanced, we are all interested in anything which is conducive to the preservation of the lives of children on the roads. I believe that in a number of foreign countries this system has proved successful, but the measure of this success depends on the conditions existing in the country concerned. It would be difficult to measure the success achieved in a country like Holland, where the traffic conditions are so different from conditions over here. But I think it will be generally conceded that this is an interesting experiment, which might well produce useful results in this country. The last thing that I should like to be understood in this House is that the Government are in any way opposed to this system of scholar patrols. On the other hand, I must be frank with my noble friend and tell him that I feel that this is something which ought not to be imposed on local authorities from the centre. He said that the only people concerned in this matter were the local authority, the education authority and the police. In fact, he has left out a most important category of people who are concerned—namely, the parents. It would be quite improper to put into a Bill powers which enabled a local authority to compel children to do something against the wishes of their parents. That is another angle which must be considered.
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  This must be a matter for agreement locally between the authorities concerned and the police. I do not think it is something which can be imposed from the centre. Noble Lords, on Second Reading and this afternoon, have drawn attention to the benefits of this system, and I hope that what they have said will be widely read by local authorities, and that it may have a persuasive effect on them. My noble friend Lord Portman talked about the scholar patrol operating at Chesham, and asked whether I would draw the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister of Education to it. I can assure the noble Lord that my right honourable friend is fully aware of that experiment, and knows all about it. The facts about scholar patrols are familiar to most education authorities in this country, but whether or not they will adopt them must be a matter of time and persuasion; I do not think it is something which can be imposed from the centre. For all those reasons, I am sorry, but I do not feel able to accept the Amendment of my noble friend.
  EARL HOWE: I have listened with great interest to what the noble Lord has said, and with much of it it is difficult to disagree—as, for instance, the fact that scholar patrols can be organised under the Bill as drafted. However, I feel that the answer given by the noble Lord is most disappointing. Wherever scholar patrols have been instituted, not only in this country—the one at Chesham has been referred to—but in countries abroad, and particularly in the great cities in America, they have been an outstanding success. In nearly every case they were received at first with the wholehearted opposition of the teachers and of the parents, but patient advocacy has led to their adoption in such cities as Cincinnati in America. I have seen them working in Copenhagen, Denmark, where the traffic is dense and very much akin to what we have in London, and where the size of the schools is almost identical with that of an ordinary London County Council school.
  The great advantage of these scholar patrols is that they offer a wonderful opportunity for training the children: they learn to observe traffic conditions in a way they would never learn otherwise. As I say, I have seen them in operation in

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  Copenhagen. The results are wonderful. The children are very keen and quick at learning; they make no mistake about it. I hope the noble Lord will exercise the great influence which we all know he has, and his own powerful advocacy, to see whether something cannot be done to get other local authorities in this country to take up this matter. The noble Lord did not tell us whether he had seen scholar patrols in operation. If not, I hope he will take an early opportunity of doing so, not only in this country but elsewhere. They can make a great contribution to road safety, and may reduce road casualties amongst children to a great extent. Can we afford to disregard anything that produces positive results of that character? I submit that the reply of the noble Lord is disappointing, and that he might have given us a little more encouragement.
  THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: I am going to venture to ask my noble friend Lord Lloyd to make a further suggestion to the right honourable lady the Minister of Education. There is in operation a most benevolent and successful teachers' exchange scheme between this country and America. I suppose that by this time a considerable number of British teachers have had the opportunity of teaching in American schools and seeing this system of scholar patrols at work. I believe that it would be of great interest if the Ministry of Education could call on those British teachers, who have seen the system working, for a report of what they have seen, which should be communicated to the Ministry of Transport.
  LORD LLOYD: I am sorry that have not satisfied my noble friend Lord Howe, but I hardly felt before I started that I should. However, I do not think that even he would feel it right to impose this kind of action on the local authorities. I do not think that is the right way to deal with it. I was interested in what the noble Earl had to say: it was quite impressive. I was also interested in the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Iddesleigh, and I can promise him that I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to it. As my noble friend Lord Howe said, the success of these scholar patrols has beer achieved elsewhere only by a system of patient advocacy. I believe that this is the sort
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  of thing which can be achieved only by patient advocacy. The more the teachers can go and see these patrols working, the better chance there is that they will go, back and report to their local education authorities that it is an admirable system. We must hope that by these methods, if the system is as good as it is said to be—and I have no doubt that it is—it will percolate to this country. I do not think it can be forced; it must be done by persuasion. I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what has been said this afternoon, and I hope that what noble Lords have said will be read, both abroad and in this country. However, I cannot go further than that.
  EARL HOWE: I like the noble Lord's second reply better than his first.
  LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: I should like to thank my noble friend for both his replies. I agree with him that it is not possible to impose a system like this from the centre on the local authorities. Nevertheless, that is a different thing from encouraging the adoption or trial of this system. I hope that Her Majesty's Government may be able to do something in that direction, I also hope that local authorities will read the debate that has taken place this afternoon, and that what has been said will arouse their curiosity and interest. I realise that this Amendment is not the right way of dealing with the matter, and, therefore, I beg leave to withdraw it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Remaining clauses and Schedule agreed to.
  House resumed.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MISCEL- LANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
  5.10 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Burden.)
  On Question, Motion I agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
  Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
  Clause 4:
  Provision of omnibus shelters, etc.
  (4) In this and the next three following sections, "local authority" includes the council of a rural parish; and "public service vehicle" has the meaning assigned to it by section one hundred and twenty-one of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, except that it includes a tramcar or trolley vehicle as so defined.
  LORD HINDLIP LORD HINDLIP moved, in subsection (4) after "parish" to insert:
  "and in the case of a rural parish not having a council, the parish meeting."
  The noble Lord said: I mentioned this point on Second Reading. Since then it has been brought to my knowledge that it is probable that Section 273 of the Local Government Act, 1933, will cover my point. That section gives county councils power to empower parish meetings in the same way as parish councils. If that applies in the case of this Bill, there will be no need for me to go further with this Amendment. I take it that it is the wish of Parliament that the smallest local authorities should have the powers given by Clause 4 of this Bill. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Burden, will tell me if this section of the Local Government Act, 1933, covers my point. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 4, line 35, after ("parish") insert the said words.—(Lord Hindlip.)
  LORD BURDEN: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hindlip, for the way in which he has moved this Amendment. As he says, he raised this point on Second Reading, and since then I have been into the question and have given some time and attention to it with those responsible for the promotion of the Bill. I can assure him that the Amendment is unnecessary in view of the provisions in Section 273 of the Local Government Act, 1933, which enables a county council, at the request of a parish meeting of a rural parish, to make an order conferring on them any functions of a parish council. Of course we are all desirous of developing amenities in our villages in the remote parts, particularly those villages which have not sufficient population for a parish council. The development of those amenities is very important in our national life, and I feel sure that any council receiving
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  representations from a parish meeting that the parish meeting itself is anxious to provide a bus shelter would give sympathetic consideration to a request of that kind. With that, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment.
  LORD HINDLIP: I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Burden. He has certainly covered my point, and I am sure all is in order. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 4 agreed to.
  Remaining clauses and Schedule agreed to.
  House resumed: Bill reported without amendment.

  DOGS (PROTECTION OF LIVESTOCK) BILL
  5.15 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Amherst of Hackney.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
  Clause 1:
  Penalty where dog worries livestock on agricultural land
  (5) Where the Minister is satisfied that it is inexpedient that subsection (1) of this section should apply to land in any particular area, being an area appearing to him to consist wholly or mainly of mountain, hill, moor, heath or down land, he may by order direct that that subsection shall not apply to land in that area.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (5), after "down land" to insert:
  "adjacent to towns, and commonly used for exercise or recreation by their residents,"
  The noble Earl said: I shall not say much about the merits of this Amendment, for the simple reason that however good the Amendment might be no one would wish to press an Amendment which would result in the loss of the Bill. But I think that this subsection, as it stands, is not

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  drafted in a way which carries out the real intention of the promoter The subsection would enable the Minister to exempt from the land where this Bill will operate—that is to say, from land where livestock will be protected from worrying of dogs—any upland area in any part of England, Scotland and Wales. It would apply equally to the Highlands of Scotland, to Dartmoor, to the mountainous areas of Wales and to the upland areas in the North-West and North-East of England, and these, of course, are places where hill farmers and upland farmers keep a large number of store cattle and sheep.
  The intention of this subsection is to enable the Minister to exempt land which is used for the purposes of recreation in the neighbourhood of large towns. People who want to go out for a walk with their dogs on moorland in the neighbourhood of a large town in the North, obviously should be able to do so and should not be in danger of getting into trouble on account of any livestock that a neighbouring farmer may have allowed to graze on the land. If that is the object of this subsection I cannot help feeling that a form of words should be found which would define that object more precisely. I am not wedded to the words which I have put down. They are probably entirely inappropriate. I am not an expert draftsman, but I hope the noble Lord who is promoting this Bill and has expert advisers may be able to find a form of words which will carry out the intention which we all have in mind. As I say, I certainly would not press this Amendment, because we do not want to lose the Bill. We all think it is a good Bill, and the last thing we want is to lose it. It is a great pity that a Private Member's Bill arrives so late in the Session that we cannot amend it. It deprives this House of its function as a revising Chamber. I hope some consideration will be given to the arrangement of business in another place so that Private Members' Bills can come to this House rather earlier in the Session. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 2, line 9, after ("land") insert the said words.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
  THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: I support the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in this
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  Amendment. I am quite unable to understand why any differentiation should be made between moorland and ordinary arable land. It seems to me that the position is even more unsatisfactory from the point of view of the hill farmer than from that of the lowland farmer, because if a dog starts worrying sheep on an arable farm it probable that it will be noticed in a very short space of time and action taken; but sheep on the mountains are often many miles from the shepherd, and the shepherd making his long rounds can visit them only once or twice a day. I should like to know why it is that the owner of a dog that worries sheep or other livestock on a hillside gets off scot free, while the owner of a dog which worries sheep or other livestock in an enclosed pasture is liable to prosecution. I hope that something will be done to remedy the situation to which the noble Earl has very rightly drawn attention.
  LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: I think we all have great sympathy with the intention behind this Amendment. Obviously, as the noble Earl says, we do not wish the Minister to exempt or exclude from this Bill all those high lands in Scotland and Wales, and other high lands, where the farmer is having even greater difficulty than the lowland farmer in making a living. But we must remember that the Minister who has to make the order exempting land for the operations of the Bill is, in fact, the Minister of Agriculture. I feel it would be stretching the point rather too far to think that any Minister of Agriculture, with the force of the National Farmers' Union and all the other bodies behind him, would exclude any land from the Bill unless he felt that the case for excluding it was overwhelming. I also feel that the insertion of the words to provide that he shall be able to exclude only land which is near a town, would not make the matter very clear. There is a great deal of land near towns, even in the Highlands or in Yorkshire or elsewhere, and people might feel that as in those particular cases he had power to exclude land he should in fact do so. Therefore, although I agree with the intention of this Amendment, I feel that on the whole it might weaken the Minister's position rather than strengthen it, and or those grounds I hope the noble Earl will not press his Amendment.
  LORD CARRINGTON: Perhaps I might lend some support to the noble Lord, Lord Amherst, over this matter, and allay some of the fears and suspicions expressed by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield. The Minister concerned in this Bill is, as Lord Amherst has said, the Minister of Agriculture, and therefore on the side of the sheep and not of the dog, if I may so put it. Moreover, your Lordships will see that Clause 1 (5) reads as follows:
  "Where the Minister is satisfied that it is inexpedient …"
  and so on. That, I think, disposes of Lord Mansfield's point. But I can give this undertaking: that only in the rarest of cases would the Minister consider himself so satisfied and so bring this subsection into force.
  THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Would the Minister explain why sheep or other livestock should be worried with impunity anywhere?
  LORD CARRINGTON: This is not my Bill, but I did explain that point on Second Reading. The object of putting in this small subsection is that very often, near large towns and elsewhere, there are certain open spaces which for fifty-one weeks in the year are used for recreation, and it is felt that hardship might be caused to citizens of those towns if they had to restrict their dogs unduly.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am grateful to all the noble Lords who have taken part in this discussion, and particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for the assurance he has given that this power would be used only rarely by the Minister of Agriculture. It seems to me, nevertheless, that the Amendment is right in principle. Parliament should not give any Minister more power than is absolutely necessary to carry out the purpose laid down in a Bill. Here very wide powers are being given to the Minister of Agriculture. We all believe that he will use these powers with judgment and responsibility; but I feel it is a bad thing in principle that Parliament should give Ministers wider powers than are absolutely necessary. However, I certainly will not press this Amendment and I hope the Bill will become law as soon as
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  possible. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  House resumed: Bill reported without amendment.

  SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS (PIGS) BILL
  5.28 p.m
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Merthyr.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
  Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
  LORD BURDEN LORD BURDEN moved, after Clause 3 to insert the following new clause:
  Institution of proceedings
  "4.—(1) A local authority in England and Wales may institute proceedings for any offence under this Act committed in the area of the authority.
  (2) In this section "local authority" means the council of a county borough or county district, the council of a metropolitan borough or the Common Council of the City of London."
  The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List. If we must eat meat, I think everyone would agree that the animals should be killed by the most humane means possible. Therefore, with the objects of this Bill no one, I think, can quarrel. I submit to the Committee, however, that the Bill is defective in three ways. First, it does not provide who is to use the humane killer: the work is not to be carried out by a licensed slaughter-man. Secondly, there is no right of entry. But the third and most serious difficulty is the one which my Amendment seeks to put right—I mentioned the other two defects just in passing. I wonder whether it is realised that under the Bill as it stands local authorities will not be able to see that the provisions in the Bill are carried out. The local authority will not be able, as I understand from my reading of the Bill, to take any steps whatsoever to enforce its provisions; and, as your

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  Lordships will be aware, the officers of local authorities under the principal Act have a wealth of information and knowledge with regard to protecting animals which are to be slaughtered.
  Who will endeavour to carry out the provisions of the Bill? First, it is, understood that we shall trust an enlightened public opinion. Secondly, it is suggested that the police will do so; and, thirdly, the officers of the R.S.P.C.A. I say nothing about the enlightened public opinion, but I would say a word with regard to the police. I do not know whether a figure has ever been given as to the number of animals likely to be affected by the Bill, but I believe that I have seen the figure of 50,000 quoted somewhere. Many of these killings, in the nature of things, are carried out in remote rural areas. Those of us who have had any experience of the countryside, particularly in the remote rural areas, will know the duties imposed on the police officer in such areas. It is practically impossible to expect the village policeman to carry out the duties imposed by this Bill. As for the R.S.P.C.A., I have the greatest respect possible for the work which they carry out in difficult circumstances. The point of this Amendment is, shall I say, to make the Bill operative, which I think is the desire of the promoters of toe Bill. My Amendment, therefore, is moved in no antagonistic spirit to the provisions of the Bill, but only in an attempt to see that its provisions do not become a dead letter because of the lack of provisions for enforcement. I beg to move my Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 3 insert the said new clause—(Lord Burden.)
  5.33 p.m.
  LORD MERTHYR: The first thing I want to make quite clear is that, on the pure merits of this Amendment, there is no disagreement between us; but, for reasons which I must put forward, which I think are sound and weighty, I all sorry that I have to ask the House to reject the Amendment. So much is it a fact that on its merits we do not disagree that I just want to mention that, in the first draft of this Bill, there was inserted a power for local authorities to enforce this Bill. That shows that there is nothing between us purely on the
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  merits of the Amendment. The real difficulty is this. Though there seems to be a little doubt about it, I am informed, and, I believe, that if this Amendment were to be passed it would be necessary for there to be attached to this Bill a Money Resolution. I am further informed, and believe that it is almost, though perhaps not quite, impossible for a Money Resolution to be attached to a Private Member's Bill. I am not an expert on this machinery, but I am informed that that is the case. Be that as it may, there remains this. If this Bill had to go back to another place to have a Money Resolution attached to it, there would, as I think we shall all agree, be no time to pass it into law this Session. That may or may not be a valid argument, but it remains a fact that one must take into account. So, while I fully appreciate the good intentions of the noble Lord who says that he wants this Bill to pass, I must, I am sorry to say, tell him that, if his Amendment were passed, it would have the opposite effect and that neither he nor I should get what we wanted.
  There are one or two other small points. The noble Lord said that without this Amendment local authorities could not take any steps to enforce this Bill. But surely they could inform the police; they could inform the R.S.P.C.A. who could, and I have very little doubt who would, then prosecute. Indeed, the noble Lord almost answered his own point when he mentioned the village police. He seemed to doubt whether the village police could or would lay an information on this Bill. I have little or no doubt about it myself. We all know of many cases where village policemen lay informations on very similar subjects. For example, to mention only one, I have known many cases where the police have prosecuted people for setting traps in the open. That is only one case of the same sort of subject. If they cart do that, why could not they prosecute a man who killed a pig in contravention of this Bill? They could and, what is more, I believe they would. I hope that I have said enough to show that in many ways I regret that this Amendment is not in the Bill but that on the other hand, I believe that the disadvantages of passing this Amendment far outweigh the advantages which would

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  accrue. I must repeat that, if this Amendment were passed, I should have very little hope of being successful in getting this Bill passed into law this Session.
  LORD BURDEN: I fully appreciate the risk which would be run if I endeavoured to press this Amendment. One knows, too, with a Private Member's Bill of this kind, the thought and work that go into it before it reaches its present stage. I should not like in any way to disappoint those who put so much labour into it. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 4 [Citation, extent and commencement]:
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved that the Act should come into operation on April 1, 1954, instead of July 1, 1954. The noble Earl said: The purpose of my Amendment is to bring this Bill into effect three months earlier than the time proposed in the Bill—in April, 1954, instead of July, 1954. I think your Lordships have already agreed that this inhumane practice of slaughtering pigs in backyards should be discontinued. If it should be discontinued, then surely it should be discontinued at the earliest possible opportunity. The noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, on Second Reading said that already there was a sufficient number of humane killers for this Bill to be made operative without any long delay. I must say it is extremely puzzling to me why the administrative arrangements required before the Bill can take effect should take a whole year. I am suggesting that the period should be cut down by only three months, and I hope the noble Lord will seriously consider whether it is not reasonable to ask those who are responsible for making the administrative arrangements to make them within a period of nine months from the passing of the Bill. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 2, line 30, leave out ("July") and insert ("April").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
  5.40 p.m.
  LORD MERTHYR: Again I find myself in the position of agreeing with the mover of the Amendment purely on its merits, and again I regret to say I am in the position of having to ask the mover
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  not to press the Amendment because the result might create to this Bill a certain amount of opposition which has so far been allayed by the time inserted at which the Bill is to come into operation. The history of this matter is that the promoter of the Bill in another place himself inserted the date and moved an Amendment to that effect. Needless to say, being like the noble Earl in full sympathy with this Bill, he did not do that without some reason. The noble Earl quoted something that I said on Second Reading, to the effect that there were sufficient humane killers in existence. However true that may be (and I believe it was true and is true) there remains this fact: that we have to satisfy those who may have a doubt or a criticism to make about this point, not only that there is this number of humane killers in existence, but that they exist everywhere, up and down the country, properly distributed. We have to satisfy them on that point.
  I want to be in a very safe position in this matter. I do not want to run the slightest risk of being accused of making a statement which proved to be not quite accurate. I want to be certain about it. There are those who have a doubt about this matter, and one wants to make doubly sure that the Bill does not come into operation until there is not the slightest difficulty about obtaining a humane killer. There is no sort of pact about this matter. I think I can say that there has been an understanding throughout the history of this Bill that there should be no difficulty in this connection, and again I must say that if this Amendment were passed I think there is a risk that we should lose the understanding and good feeling which has existed, both in another place and in this House, and which was quite remarkable. Therefore I am going to ask the noble Earl to be good enough to withdraw the Amendment, because as we have waited for all these years for this reform it would be a thousand pities to lose it just for the sake of three months.
  There is one small further point. I am informed that there is a season for pig-killing and that the season in which pigs are not killed, generally speaking, is in the middle of a summer. Therefore there is a little administrative convenience and tidiness in having July 1, which is in

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  the middle of the non-killing season, as the date on which the Bill shall come into operation. The present date will avoid a little confusion in the minds of farmers and others. The whole of the next: killing season will be outside the Bill and the whole of the season following that will be within the Bill. That may be a slight help to those up and down the country who want to kill their pigs. I know I am asking a lot of the noble Earl in this matter, but he and I both want this Bill and therefore I ask him to withdraw his Amendment.
  EARL JOWITT: Before the noble Earl responds to that request may I say that this House is being put in an absolutely impossible position. After all, our function is to act as a revising Chamber. I would venture to say, from my experience, that there is no legislation that is more apt to need revision than Private Members'legislation—it needs to be very carefully looked at. I know nothing about this Bill—I am not in the least hostile to it—but I have listened what has been going on. The last Amendment was obviously a sensible Amendment. We were told (it was surprising to me to hear it) that if we carried that Amendment providing for a right of inspection by a local authority, or something of that sort, we should require a Money Resolution to the Bill, and, that being so, the Bill would have to go back to another place, all precedent would be broken and so on. In the result, the noble Lord said, with tears in his eyes, that he was very, very sorry; that it was a splendid Amendment and one with which he entirely agreed, but that he must ask my noble friend not to press2 it—and the noble Lord behind me responded to his sorrowful attitude.
  Now the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, moves another Amendment, and again it is said that it is an eminently sensible and reasonable Amendment. But again the noble Lord has said, "Whatever else you do, please do not press it to a Division, but withdraw it." I have no doubt that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who is always kindhearted and tolerant, will withdraw his Amendment. That is all very well, but I think it places this House in an intolerable position. I am making no attack upon the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, in saying this; the position has existed for a long time. But I do think
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  we ought to consider in the appropriate quarters what we are going to do about it. It is wrong that Private Members' legislation should come to us at such a late stage that we are told, in effect, that if we move any Amendments to the Bill we shall imperil and probably lose it, and that consequently we must take it just as it is and do nothing about it. That puts us in a bad position.
  I have no doubt that the noble Earl will withdraw his Amendment because of that situation, but I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, will apply his well-known ingenuity to this problem, to see whether something cannot be done to put us is a position effectively to carry out our revising powers— because that is all this House wants to do. Unless we do that effectively, some of this Private Bill legislation will not be so good or so useful as it would be if this House had the time and opportunity to look into it and revise it. I hope that the noble Lord will not mind my making that intervention. I am not making any attack on him. I think this is inherent in the position which we suffer from to-day, and I wish it were otherwise.
  LORD CARRINGTON: This Bill is not my Bill, nor is it a Government Bill. I know we are all in sympathy with what the noble and learned Earl has said. But I oppose the Amendment on its merits, because I think it is a bad Amendment. Speaking on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, I would ask the Committee to reject it, but not for the reason that my noble friend Lord Merthyr has given. I think there is a very good reason why we should start the Act at the end of June, and that is that in point of fact the end of June is the month at which the killings of pigs drop right down. In the spring, there is fairly heavy killing of pigs, but in July and August it drops down to about 1,000 a month throughout the country. From the administrative point of view I should have thought it a great convenience to start an Act of this kind at a time when the pig killings were low and the farmers had an opportunity to buy these humane killers.
  Some of the farming community, I think quite wrongly, have been a little apprehensive about this Bill, and the more time we have to explain to them what the purpose of it is and the more

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  time they are given to adjust themselves to the conditions of the Bill and to get this humane killing apparatus, the better. I should have thought that from every point of view it was better to have the Bill starting at the beginning of July than earlier on. After all, there is not much difference. The noble Earl is asking for only three months. This matter has been going on for a very long time, and for the reasons I have given I think it would be much better to leave the Bill as it is rather than to press the Amendment.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I agree with the noble Lord opposite that this is not an Amendment of any great importance. It would alter the date when this Bill takes effect by only three months, and we have been waiting for a Bill of this kind (noble Lords who take a special interest in the welfare of animals particularly so) for a very long period of years. We shall be extremely thankful when the Bill becomes operative, and certainly no one would wish to risk its loss for the sake of three months. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 4 agreed to.
  House resumed: Bill reported without Amendment.

  HOSPITAL OF ST. MARY MAG- DALEN (COLCHESTER) CHARITY SCHEME CONFIRMATION BILL
  5.50 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.—(Lord Hawke.)
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, before this Bill has its Third Reading, I should like to say a word or two about it. I think the House is to be congratulated that it has two noble Lords who have taken such pains to look into the Bill. Lord Hawke, on the one side, has advocated the Bill, and he has dealt with the difficulties in it with great clarity. Obviously, he has
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  given up much of his time to the consideration of it. And, equally, on this side of the House, Lord Shepherd has taken a great deal of time and trouble to assist. He has actually gone to see the place concerned, and has taken various other steps. I think this is very much to the good. I think it is wholly admirable that in connection with a small Bill like this, dealing with a Charity, there should be two noble Lords prepared to devote their time and attention in that way.
  Looking at the conclusion to which we have come, I confess that I am not altogether happy about it. As I see it, the position is this. The income of the Charity is being divided (the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, will correct me if I am wrong: I am attempting, to deal with this matter in an approximate way) so that about three-fifths of it goes to ecclesiastical purposes and two-fifths of it goes to the five inmates of the almshouses. They were in early days, of course, entitled to their lodging, I think to their allowance, and to the sum of one shilling a week, which was provided for their "sustenance, relief and maintenance." How far the sum of one shilling a week would go in the year 1611 I do not know, but I am old enough to remember a time when an agricultural labourer used to get, in addition to his cottage, only 11s. a week. Out of that, often enough, he used to keep his wife and bring up a family. Now that was in my lifetime. So I take it that one shilling a week for an individual in 1611 may have been a sum on which it was possible to live. But since I have no knowledge of monetary changes, I could not say. I think, however, that it is a fallacy to treat the Charity, as it has been treated, rather as though there were no discretion on the part of those who administer it to give further sums. I believe that I should be right in saying that if there were further income available it could have been distributed to the old people—that is to say, that sums could have been given to them in addition to the one shilling a week. I rather wish that that had been done. What strikes one at first blush, looking at this arrangement, is that the Charity Commissioners did not adhere to their original proposal that the division should be on a fifty-fifty basis. That was the

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  original proposal. From that they departed. One does not quite know why. Frankly, I rather wish that they had not done so.
  I think one can leave this subject in this way. I have already paid a tribute to two noble Lords who have been concerned with the Bill. This matter has been considered carefully by most competent people, who have no desire whatever save to do that which is right and proper. This is the conclusion to which they have come. With my very inadequate knowledge of the matter I should certainly be most reluctant to say that they are wrong. All I will say is that by the care we have taken, by the efforts which these noble Lords have made in dealing with this Bill, we have set an example. We have made it plain that even the smallest Bill dealing with the humblest subject will be subjected to close scrutiny in your Lordships' House in order to see that justice is being done.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I should like to say just two or three words before we finally dispose of this Bill. I thank the noble and learned Earl for his kind words. I am sorry that we part with the Bill still not seeing directly eye to eye. As I regard it—and I think that historically I am correct—it is a Charity to support an incumbent, plus free houses for five almspeople, whereas some noble Lords think that the almspeople should have had support out of the Charity. However, there is the difference. The noble Lords who have raised this matter consider that a fifty-fifty division would be more correct. As I say, this Charity has existed for over three centuries, and during that time the Church has had by far the larger share. That is the division which persists to-day. I may say that the Charity, on whose behalf I have been briefed are quite satisfied with the arrangement. Their ideas have been met in full, whereas the Church, out of the division, will be able to pay only half the remuneration of its incumbent. Therefore, I maintain that, from the Charity's point of view, the division is not an unfair one.
  On Question. Bill read 3ª.
  Bill passed.

  HOSPITAL OF THE BLESSED TRINITY (GUILDFORD) CHARITY SCHEME CONFIRMATION BILL
  5.58 p.m.
  Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.

  EDUCATION (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
  5.59 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.—(Earl De La Warr.)
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, we have got a very mixed grill to-day, and it seems to me that I am talking on nearly all subjects which arise. It is my misfortune, and your Lordships' misfortune, not my fault. However, I want to say something about this Bill, because on Second Reading I suggested to the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that it would be well that we should have an interview with the Minister in order that she might realise the point of view that we desired to put forward and might state her point of view. I should like to say at once that the Minister was quite agreeable so to do, and received us the following day with the utmost courtesy. She listened to what we had to say, and put before us her point of view—at least, I presume she told us her point of view: I am bound to say that I came away completely confused about what her point of view was and why that original statement had ever been made.
  May I remind your Lordships of these simple facts? The right honourable lady met a deputation and to that deputation she made a statement—this was on February 12. She was most anxious that I should not represent it as having been an undertaking or anything of that sort: she preferred the word "statement." But when you have a deputation of this sort and read out a statement, it is not the sort of remark which thrown out in the course of a conversation; it is a carefully considered and carefully prepared statement. What the right honourable lady

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  said, in regard to the definition of displaced pupils, was this:
  "The new definition would not be retrospective in the sense that grants on completed projects could be re-assessed, but grant claims on schemes in progress or for which the accounts have not been closed would be eligible for review in the light of the new definition."
  On that assurance, the test was that "if accounts had not been closed" the schools would be eligible. So far as I can gather, before the Bill was introduced the Minister discovered that she could not carry out that undertaking—I now quote her own words from the proceedings in Committee in another place:
  "I want to say quite frankly to honourable Members that not until this was looked into just before Second Reading was it found that the Amendment we were suggesting would not include schools defined as those whose accounts had not been closed. I am quite prepared to admit it was a great pity that neither we nor those with whom we were having discussions nor their legal advisers had seen this point before."
  The Minister having made a statement to a deputation that the basis of the scheme was going to be whether the accounts were closed, and then having found out just before Second Reading that that promise could not be made good, the thing to do was to send for the deputation and tell them she was exceedingly sorry but she found she could not carry out her promise. Nothing of the sort was done, however.
  The Bill was there. One needs to be an expert on this matter to find out why the undertaking is not implemented in the Bill—I realise it now, of course, to the full. And I can understand the people in the deputation, to whom that assurance had been given, relying on what had been said by the Minister. Then, at a later stage, some question is asked, some problem is propounded, and it becomes plain that the undertaking cannot be made good—or rather, that the form of words which the Bill contained does not make good the undertaking. With the greatest respect to the Minister, I would say that I still think that, if a Minister makes a statement to a deputation of this sort, it is very desirable that the statement should be adhered to and carried out. It should not be lightly made; and, if made, should be carried out. And if a
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  Minister finds that an undertaking that has been given cannot be carried out, then I think the first people who ought to be informed of it are the people to whom, erroneously and under a mistaken view, the undertaking was given. They should not be allowed to discover it during the course of discussions on the Bill.
  That is the position I desire to adopt. On the last occasion, the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, suggested that the accounts referred to were not building accounts but were accounts as between the school and the Ministry. I have ascertained, as I anticipated, that the second account mentioned must come after the first, because before the account between the Ministry and the school is settled, the school has to produce the final building account which has been paid; only then does it secure the appropriate grant from the Ministry. Therefore, the account which is contemplated is the latter and not the earlier of the two accounts. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, made these excuses; but what is the point of trying to make excuses when the Minister says quite plainly, and admits quite frankly, that it was found that
  "the Amendment we were suggesting did not include schools defined as those whose accounts had not been closed"?
  All this shows how careful one ought to be in this debatable subject, with which both the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, and I have had something to do at one stage of the Bill. May I say that this is a perfect example of the way in which not to do it?
  6.8 p.m.
  THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I regard this Bill as a recognition by the Government and by both Houses of Parliament of the justice of certain claims which the Roman Catholic Bishops and their people have been putting forward ever since 1950. Those claims have been pressed by every proper and constitutional means at two Elections, and by deputations to the right honourable lady the Minister of Education. To-day, in 1953, we pass a Bill recognising that those claims were just. I am exceedingly glad that this recognition has been given. Justice is being done, but it is tardy justice. Because it is tardy justice, and because Her Majesty's Government are so hypnotised

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  by the phrase "no retrospection," justice is incomplete. Some schools which should have received grant have not received grant, and will not receive it under this Bill. In saying that, I am not indulging in any recriminations; I am certainly not making any Party point—far from that, indeed. I say it in order that I may express the hope that, the next time the Bishops of my Church have something to say, they may obtain the ear of Parliament somewhat earlier, and that, if a case is made out, redress may be somewhat more prompt.
  I have to thank the right honourable lady the Minister of Education for her courtesy in receiving my noble friend Lord Perth and myself. In particular, I have to thank warmly the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, for the great assistance he has given, both at that deputation and in the House. One impression I carry away from the conference—and it is a strong impression—is the need for precise, well-defined phraseology in any negotiations connected with educational finance. The introduction of the phrase, "accounts not yet closed" was, I think, admittedly unfortunate. If it had to be used, then it should have been clearly defined; but it was not. Let us hope that in future negotiations and discussions much greater care will be taken to ensure that all parties—because there are many parties to these discussions—are perfectly clear in their minds what meaning is to be attached to the phrases used. There will have to be further discussions if the dual system of education is to stand the test of the future.
  This Bill cannot possibly be regarded as a settlement. It is not a settlement, though I am willing to recognise it as something substantial on account. In the course of my speech on Second Reading I ventured to point out that under this Bill no assistance will be accorded to our secondary schools. I am most anxious that that point should be carefully considered, and that in future—I hope the not too distant future—some assistance to denominational secondary schools may be found to be possible. That is a field in which I believe the Roman Catholic community can be especially useful, and in which we can make a really great contribution to national education, if it is made financially possible for us to do so.
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  In many respects we are a very poor community, but in one respect we are rich—we have a lot of nun power. What with one thing and another, it is evident that the nuns and teaching Orders can make a substantial contribution to secondary education. I very much hope that the Ministry will feel able to consider the points which I have already made regarding the need for assistance in that field. I will conclude by thanking all those who have devoted time to this Bill, and by expressing the satisfaction that is felt at the arrangements which will in future bring substantial relief to a hard-pressed people.
  6.12 p.m.
  THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, as the other Catholic here who took part in the discussions arranged after the Second Reading, I should like to say a few words. First, I should like to thank all those who have paid attention to the particular aspect of this Bill which affects Catholic schools, and, in particular, to thank the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, for his advocacy in our discussions on this aspect of the case. I should also like to thank the Minister of Education and the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, for the patience and courtesy with which they heard our point of view. The discussions lasted a long time—probably over an hour and a half—and I know how difficult it is to give so much time to such discussions. Before going further, I wish to say that, whatever has happened under this Bill, and whatever has happened on one particular point, we most sincerely appreciate the general purpose behind the Bill and the work the Minister of Education has put into it, and how much she has the general cause of the schools at heart.
  I do not think that any purpose would be served by my going into great detail about what happened in the discusions, or rehashing the arguments which we have all heard in this and in previous debates. The Minister promised that she would consider most sympathetically the case of eleven schools which did not appear, at first sight, to come within the orbit of the Bill; and we, for our part, are searching most diligently to find the grounds which will satisfy her on this point. I might sum up my feelings on the discussion, and indeed, on the whole question, by way of an analogy—although I recognise that analogies are dangerous, because they are often incomplete.

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  A poor student, who is hard up, as students often are, receives a letter from his uncle who is abroad suggesting that he should come and spend the holidays with him. The uncle writes: "While you are on holiday I will pay all your expenses." The student, very much pleased, accepts the invitation, scrapes some money together to buy his ticket to go abroad, and joins his uncle. There he has a wonderful time, and his uncle pays all expenses. But there is one question which has still not been broached, and that is the cost of the ticket to go out and join his uncle abroad. One day he plucks up courage and says, "Uncle, what about paying for that ticket?" The uncle replies: "Oh, no. I said I would pay all your expenses while you were on holiday. You incurred that expense before the holidays began. I am sorry. I will certainly pay for your ticket back, and I will see if I can pay some of the expenses, such as the tips or the taxi-cab fares, but I cannot pay for that ticket." The student is grateful to his uncle, because, after all, he has had a really good holiday which he could not have afforded otherwise, but…That, I think, represents my feelings on this Bill. We, as Catholics are extremely grateful for the relief that the Bill affords us, but we do wish that it had been made to cover all the schools which are building. I do not wish to say anything more on the point, because there are still some slender hopes that we shall find grounds for including further of the schools—and then my analogy will be false, which will be splendid.
  The noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, speaking in the Second Reading debate, referred to the great compromise on religious education which has been worked out and the need for us to maintain an essential balance. He appealed for good will and co-operation. Subsequent speakers made the same point, and I know that I and others of our Faith fully subscribe in welcoming that appeal. But I do beg the present Minister of Education and other Ministers of Education not to press us too hard. The burden, when we first faced it, ran into some tens of millions of pounds. To-day, owing to the cost of starting buildings and other costs which have risen during the intervening time, we now have to face
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  an additional burden of some tens of millions of pounds. Somehow we will find that money. We must find it. But this is the point I want to make. I see a real danger developing that Catholics may be driven into themselves. Every week at church we shall find that the parish priest has to make a special appeal for a collection for the schools; and if, with that reminder and with that collection, there comes a feeling that somehow we have been singled out for harsh treatment, I am afraid of the result. I am afraid that we may feel driven into a corner rather as a minority than as a community; and that would be something disastrous for us and for the community. I hope that that point will be remembered.
  I will make one other point which arises from it—namely, that if we do get into the feeling of being in a minority, that something is wrong, that it is a hardship which we have been singled out to meet or to carry, there is a very real danger that the next thing we shall start to do is to agitate in a political way. I do not want to see that happen. None of us wants to see it happen. One of the most satisfactory things in these debates has been the avoidance of political controversy on this question. I, speaking from a neutral position, am very pleased to note that. But I am fearful that if the burden is too heavy, or we find it almost insupportable, then there is a real risk that it will become a question of Party politics, however hard we all may try to avoid it.
  To end, I would again sincerely thank all those who have taken such an interest in this question, and in particular I wish to thank the Government for what they have given us in this Bill, according to their best judgment. I could only wish that their judgment had been a little more elastic. We will continue loyally to carry out the task we have assumed, and I remain with the strong hope that, when new financial problems arise in the future, as they inevitably will, what has passed in these debates will be remembered by the Minister of Education at the time.
  6.24 p.m.
  LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, in a very few words I should like to make three points. First, I wish to say how completely I agree with the remarks made by

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  my noble friends Lord Iddesleigh and Lord Perth. Secondly, I wish to how grateful we of the Catholic community are to the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, for the sympathetic way in which he has handled this difficult question. Thirdly, desire to congratulate the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, on putting our point of view in regard to this matter with such clarity. It is obvious that nothing more can be done at this moment, but we earnestly hope that it will be possible, in the not too distant future, for the Government to enable us to carry the very heavy burden which falls upon us as a community in a more equitable way than at present.
  6.25 p.m.
  LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, said that the Catholic community were not very numerous but were not deficient in nun power; and after the last few speeches we are certainly not very deficient in lung power. I hardly feel that the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, can be a very happy man this evening. He was extremely sympathetic on the last stage, and I am sure that at any time he would do all that he could to see justice done. I asked him on Second Reading whether it would be possible for him to explain in what sense, if any; the undertaking of the Minister in one important respect was going to be honoured. I ended my remarks by saying that, whether to-day or later, we should have to ask in terms whether the promise was to be carried out; and if so, in what sense. The noble Earl and the Minister were kind enough to arrange conversations which lasted, apparently, one and a half hours. Although I think few of us in this House would regard my noble friend Lord Jowitt as lacking in acumen and power of cross-examination, it seems that after an hour and a half cross-examining the Minister nobody was any wiser as to what the Minister's intention was, or how she proposed to explain away her under taking. That is the position in which we find ourselves to-day.
  I do not think I need say much more. The noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, cannot be altogether happy for another reason—and, heaven knows! it is no fault of his. On the last occasion he said that it ought to be clear to the whole
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  country, especially the Roman Catholic community, that in this Bill the Government are doing everything that the Roman Catholics have asked them, except in regard to retrospection, which would not have been necessary if the last Government had, during their term of office, done as the present Government were doing new. Even on the noble Earl's own showing, these schools were not to be allowed to receive a grant, as we understood they would be, if justice had been done to them since the war. He defends that position by placing the blame on the last Administration, which I cannot accept. But even the noble Earl says it is a great pity that that Government did not move in regard to these schools. So there again he car not be very happy. I think it is a very sad thing that this Bill, whose general intention is good—we again give full credit to the Minister and the Government—should have been marred in this way by this unfortunate misunderstanding, to use no worse a word. I realise that what is past is now past, though the Minister is apparently going to examine these matters in as sympathetic a way as possible. I only hope that the noble Earl will convey to the Minister that, while we realise that she is a lady of good intentions, we hope that when she proceeds to these matters in the future she will be able to arrive at a more successful, a more impressive and a more just result than has been possible on this occasion.
  6.30 p.m.
  EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I am sure that we have all appreciated the spirit of the speeches of the noble Earl, Lord Iddesleigh, the noble Earl, Lord Perth, and the noble Lord, Lord Sempill. I should like to thank them for their generous appreciation of the Minister's hard work on this matter, and of her endeavour to meet their point of view, although we know that shè has not succeeded to the very last point. I think we all appreciate these facts, even though the speeches of noble Lords who attended the meeting were skilfully interlarded with requests for more. However, that is very human. But I cannot help feeling just a little regret that on a Bill which, on the whole, is, like the spirit of the speeches which have been made, so very non-political. Lord Pakenham and Lord Jowitt should have felt it

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  necessary to use this occasion for a personal attack on the Minister.
  For myself, I think the position is perfectly clear. It has been clear from the beginning, not only in the mind of the Government but certainly in the mind of the Chairman of the Catholic Education Council. At the risk of repetition I am going to read your Lordships the words of the Chairman of the Catholic Education Council. When he wrote on December 4, he said:
  "In the first place I would like to tell you how much we welcomed the main provisions of this Bill, and how grateful we are to you for having gone so far to meet us."
  He then went on to say—and this is really the whole point at issue:
  "We appreciate that when you received the delegation … on 12th February, 1952, you said that you found it impossible to make this clause retrospective. On examination, however,"—
  he went on to say:
  "it has been found that there are a few cases where considerable hardship will be suffered if this clause does not have retrospective effect."
  It is quite clear, therefore, that from the beginning the Catholic community realised that there could be no restrospective effect—and for a very easy, obvious and simple reason. We have talked about the spirit of compromise. I was glad to hear the noble Earl, Lord Perth, say that he very much hoped that this would never become a political issue, because, as he knows, there are strong forces in this matter on both sides; and if one side were to make a political issue of it the other would, and we should be back in a maelstrom of controversy.
  But if my right honourable friend were to admit the principle of retrospection, it would mean amending Section 104 of the Education Act of 1944; and every noble Lord in this House knows perfectly well that that could not be done without the agreement of all the people concerned in education, some holding very different views from those expressed in the speeches made to-day. It is for that reason that my right honourable friend has made the point, whilst endeavouring to do everything in her power to meet the Catholic community on this matter, that she will do nothing that will necessitate amending Section 104 of the Act of 1944.
  LORD PAKENHAM: Since the noble Earl has been kind enough to refer to me
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  and accuse me of making a personal attack, perhaps he will answer me one question. He said that in the beginning the Minister had said there would be no retrospection; but at the same time the Minister made this statement, which was understood as an undertaking. She said:
  "Grant claims on schemes in progress or for which accounts have not been closed would be eligible. …"
  Was that a retrospective pledge or not? I put this quite bluntly—
  EARL DE LA WARR: Will the noble Lord repeat that?
  LORD PAKENHAM: Yes—this is now a famous phrase:
  "Grant claims on schemes in progress or for which accounts have not been closed would be eligible. …"
  It is a question of dialectics whether you call that retrospection or not, but that was the Minister's promise.
  EARL DE LA WARR: Now we get down to interpretation, and it was that interpretation which enabled the Minister to cut down a considerable number of schools which, in fact, would otherwise have been precluded from receiving grants.
  LORD PAKENHAM: The Minister, to the best of my belief, has thrown over completely these latter words:
  "Grant claims on schemes in progress or for which accounts have not been closed would be eligible …"
  To the best of my belief she has now thrown over these words completely. If I am wrong, no doubt the Minister will put me right.
  EARL DE LA WARR: The right honourable lady has not only fulfilled her pledge but she has gone even further. The noble Lord knows that she has been able to cut down the number of schools from twelve to eight by stretching the interpretation of the legislation and of any words that she has used. In fact, she knows a particular school that is absolutely completed, but she has stretched the interpretation of the words because it was completed before the holiday and was not occupied. She has made a concession in favour of the Roman Catholics, and thereby reduced from twelve to eight the number of schools precluded from grant. If the noble Lord is going to say that he cannot accept responsibility,

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  I can only say that it is recognised that this was prepared in the time of the late Government.
  LORD PAKENHAM: I certainly do not shirk any personal responsibility for what the late Government did. That is entirely a misunderstanding. I said that I could not accept the view that it was the fault of the late Government that these schools were open now—it is a question of interpretation.
  EARL DE LA WARR: The 1944 Act was amended in 1946 and 1948, and on both occasions noble Lords opposite could have inserted in those two Bills the self-same words that we have inserted in this Bill. Then these schools would have received grants without any question of retrospection. However, do not let us get into an atmosphere of unnecessary controversy. I simply wanted to make that point quite clear.
  The trouble in which my right honourable friend finds herself is really this: that she has so scraped the tin already, and gone so far in making concessions, that when noble Lords met her the other day she just could not manage to find anything else. But she does authorise me to say that she will be quite ready to consider sympathetically any grounds that may be put forward for regarding some of these schools as covered by the principal Act, provided that she does not have to amend the principal Act. I think the noble Earl, Lord Perth, used the word "slender," and I think the hope of being able to do that is very slender. Nevertheless, she definitely gives that undertaking.
  May I close by expressing our appreciation of the assistance given to us by the Roman Catholics in discussing this very difficult matter. There may have been misunderstandings, and we realise that the Roman Catholics have not achieved all that they wished. Yet I think there is no doubt, as has been said from all sides of the House, that this legislation will bring considerable financial benefits to the Catholic community. The present Government have lost no time, I think it will be agreed, in legislating, and from now onwards schools on new housing estates will receive substantial benefits of which they were previously deprived. I thank the noble
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  Lords who have spoken for their generous recognition of this fact.
  On Question, Bill read 3ª with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  VIBRIO FOETUS IN DAIRY HERDS
  6.42 p.m.
  VISCOUNT HUDSON VISCOUNT HUDSON rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to counter the menace of vibrio foetus in the dairy herds of this country. The noble viscount said: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to say a few words on the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. I should like also to apologise to your Lordships for reading my speech, a thing which I do not normally do, but, as it is rather a technical point, I hope I may be excused on this occasion.
  Abortion has long been a source of serious loss to the British dairy farmer. During the war, thanks to the co-operation of the United States Department of Agriculture, we were enabled to introduce what is known as Strain 19 vaccination. The result has been virtual elimination of contagious abortion in our herds. This has disclosed the existence on a scale formerly unrecognised of another cause of abortion, namely, vibrio foetus. The latter has undoubtedly for years been masked by the former. This disease is widespread not only in this country, but also in the U.S.A. and particularly in Holland. Up till very recently, a matter of months. diagnosis has been exceptionally difficult. Ever now, as a result of recent researches, it is difficult in the case of a cow, and in the case of a bull can only be diagnosed by putting a bull on an unspecified number of maiden heifers, at the best of times an expensive proceeding. It is believed that a cow can be cured, but in any case after a certain time she develops a natural immunity. As far as we know at present, there is no cure for a bull. Again, as far as we know, the bull is the only spreader of the disease. This places the ordinary farmer, and especially the pedigree breeder, in a great difficulty. The ordinary farmer has been in the habit of lending his bull for service to the females of his neighbours. Clearly he must be warned to stop this practice because of its dan-

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  gers, and that is one of the objects of this Question, and will be, I hope, of Lord Carrington's answer.
  The pedigree breeder is particularly affected. It has hitherto been accepted theory and practice that a young bull should be tried out on a certain number of cows and heifers and then put away till the results of his progeny are known. If he is of exceptional parentage, it has been the accepted and good practice to lend him either to a neighbouring farmer or to another breeder to use till such time as he was required back in the herd a his original breeder or owner. There is no doubt that this accepted good practice has in fact led to the wide spread of vibrio in some of the best pedigree herds in the country, and clearly it should cease, with the corresponding serious effect on the production and subsequent spread of the blood of proven sires. Personally, I think that is a tragedy.
  There is a third possible source of spread of this disease, and that is through artificial insemination at both Milk Marketing Board and non-Milk Marketing Board centres. Proof of this is very difficult to obtain, but it is reasonably certain that centres pursuing the accepted good practice of acquiring proven sires have in some instances acquired bulls infected with vibrio, and have in consequence helped to spread it among clean herds. No possible blame can be attached to those centres, and it is probable that any spread of the disease by artificial insemination is infinitely less than would have occurred naturally had artificial insemination not existed. I think it is only fair to the Milk Marketing Board and other centres to make this plain.
  We are, however, faced with a difficulty. The Milk Marketing Board believe that they have evolved a technique of buffering their bulls' semen with a triple set of antibiotics, which they believe effectively kills the vibrio in the semen, thus rendering it safe to use even on clean herds. I believe that the Ministry vets entertain grave doubts about the efficacy of this treatment. It is, I believe, accepted that the technique adopted by the Milk Marketing Board until recently—namely, double buffering—was ineffective in rendering an infected bull's semen safe. What is, I submit to your Lordships, important is that a final
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  and authoritative verdict on the efficacy of the triple buffering should be reached at an early date, and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, will be able to reassure us on this point. Meanwhile, the farming or, at all events, the dairy farming community of the country should be emphatically warned against the dangers of using other people's bulls, or bulls that have been used on other people's cows. They would also be well advised to get their "vets" to make an early investigation into the venereal health of their own herds.
  6.48 p.m.
  LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, for drawing attention to this problem. I can say at once that we agree with what he has said. The importance of vibrio foetus infection has, as he said, come to light only comparatively recently, as other diseases causing, infertility have been brought under control. As long ago as 1913, workers in this country had set up abortion experimentally with the vibrio foetus organism, but the view was held then, and for some time afterwards, that the infection was not very important. My noble friend has spoken of the way in which the use of S.19 vaccine has reduced the incidence of contagious abortion. Trichomonas infection has also been recognised as an important cause of abortion and infertility in certain herds. Here again, research has led the way to suitable methods of control. The use of artificial insemination, combined with the treatment of the female, makes it possible to control this disease and the resultant infertility. The application of effective control measures against these two diseases, and the consequent reduction of the incidence of abortion and infertility caused by them, has resulted in the unmasking of vibrio foetus as another cause of infertility, the importance of which was hitherto largely unsuspected.
  Intensive research into this disease is being carried on at the Ministry of Agriculture's Veterinary Laboratory and elsewhere, and the results of these investigations into the nature of the disease and methods of control have been, and will continue to be, published for the information of practising veterinary surgeons. In addition, the services of the Ministry's specialist officers are freely

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  available to veterinary surgeons who encounter infertility problems which may be due to vibrio foetus.
  My noble friend has rightly drawn attention to the great risk which attaches to hiring or lending bulls for service in other herds. It is well known that in many cases infection has been introduced into a herd by an infected bull, or by an infected female which infects the stock bull when first served by him. The only advice which can be given, in the absence of a specific test for infection in the male, is to maintain a herd as a self-contained breeding unit, or to introduce only maiden heifers or bulls which have never served. If other animals roust be bought they should be bought from a herd only after a full inquiry has been made into its breeding history, in the same way as is practised in selecting bulls for artificial insemination centres.
  In view of the possibility that vibrio foetus infection may be spread by infected semen, stringent measures are taken by the Department to ensure that an infected bull is not approved for use at an artificial insemination centre. Although there is no direct test for vibrio foetus infection in the bull, and the organism can only rarely be recovered from an infected animal, every possible precaution is taken to ensure that an infected bull is not approved for artificial insemination purposes. Inquiries are made into the service records of the bull, and the breeding history of the herd in which he is located, and if necessary the history of any herds in which he has previously been. Material from females in the herd or herds concerned is also examined when necessary, special attention being paid to any maiden heifers which may have been served. If, as a result of these inquiries and examinations, any suspicion of infection attaches to the bull, it is not approved for artificial insemination. In addition, the breeding records of bulls at artificial insemination centres are watched closely. If there is a noticeable fall in the conception rate of a particular bull, a special examination is carried out. In all suspicious cases the bull is removed.
  My noble friend mentioned the Milk Marketing Board's method of triple buffering of semen. This is said to be a useful adjunct to control, but my Department regard it only as a second
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  line of defence. While there is no experimental proof that this method of treating semen is effective in all cases, the evidence in the held does not indicate that infection is spread from artificial insemination centres to any extent. On the contrary, artificial insemination is a very useful method of limiting the spread of venereal infections.

  AUXILIARY FORCES BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  LICENSING BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  DOLLARS FOR SHARE PURCHASES
  DOLLARS FOR SHARE PURCHASES