Sitting of 23 October 1952

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  PUBLIC HEALTH

    Food Poisoning
    Dr. Broughtonasked the Minister of Health what steps he intends taking to lessen the incidence of food poisoning, in view of the report contained in Command Paper No. 8582, of an increase in the number of cases of the illness.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Iain Macleod): I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Vaughan-Morgan) by myself on 16th October and by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food on 20th October.
    Dr. Broughton: But does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that now is an opportune time for him, accompanied by the Minister of Food, to approach the Prime Minister and to stress the need for early legislation to amend the Food and Drugs Acts? As a Bill for that purpose is ready for presentation to Parliament will he do his utmost to try to ensure that that is brought before us as the first piece of legislation in the new Session, instead of the nonsense about de-nationalisation?
    Mr. Macleod: I cannot give any guarantee about legislation in any Session. I have a personal interest in this matter because I am suffering at the present time from a mild attack of food poisoning and I will certainly go into all the matters raised by the hon. Member.

    Detergents (Toxic Effects)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Health what evidence is available of the toxic effects following the use of detergents in cleansing glass and crockery;
    1238
    and what figures he has as to the incidence of dermatitis following their use.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am not aware of any.
    Dr. Stross: Has the Minister not been made aware that detergents tend to cause dermatitis, chapped hands, and so on? Is he not aware it is agreed that if glasses and crockery are not adequately washed after being dipped into detergents a cumulative dose is gradually taken into the human body and that that is not good for it?
    Mr. Macleod: I do not dispute that, but that is not the Question that I have been asked. It is true that any strong solution might lead to dermatitis, but the Minister of Labour and the Minister of National Insurance—and I have inquired from them both—and I have no such evidence as is referred to in the Question.

    Emergency Cases (Traumatic Surgery)
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Minister of Health what arrangements he has made in cases of emergency, such as the railway disaster at Harrow, to draft doctors with specialised experience in traumatic surgery to hospitals in the immediate vicinity, so that the best known treatment may become available to sufferers.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am sure that the hon. Member will agree that the medical aid rendered in this disaster was prompt and efficient. The general surgeons at the hospitals concerned, though not specialists, are experienced in traumatic work. Further help of this nature was offered but not required. The tragedy will be closely studied to see what lessons can be learnt from it.
    Mr. Hastings: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that traumatic surgery is a speciality of its own? As an instance of that, there are several accident hospitals. Is it not of the greatest importance that people who suffer unexpectedly in this way should in all cases have the very best treatment?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, Sir; I have great sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's point of view, but I did say in my answer that such skilled specialist help was offered and in this case was not required.

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    We shall certainly see if there are any lessons that we can learn from this disaster.

    Liquid Milk Organisms
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Health the number of infant deaths for 1951 attributable to organisms contained in liquid milk of all grades.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I regret that the information is not available.
    Mrs. Mann: Would the right hon. Gentleman try to get the information? I think he will agree that it is very important?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, but deaths attributable to organisms contained in liquid milk are not recorded as a separate form of death in the general registry.
    Mrs. Mann: I appreciate that, but diseases like collapsed vertebrae and bone deficiency may be attributable to bad milk, and as this is very important would it be possible to make inquiries?
    Mr. Macleod: I will have another look at it.
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Health the number of organisms per cubic centimetre, permitted in certified milk, "Grade A" milk, and "Grade A. (T.T.)" milk including coliform organisms, respectively.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: In England and Wales the regulations no longer provide for the designations for milk and the tests referred to in the Question. "Certified" and "Grade A (T.T.)" have been replaced by "Tuberculin Tested." "Grade A" has been replaced by "Accredited" and these grades of milk must comply with a methylene blue reduction test.
    Mrs. Mann: Does the reply indicate that the standard has gone up, or that the standard formerly set can no longer be adhered to? To cut matters short, Mr. Speaker, may I ask if the Minister would try to let mothers know that all milk must still be boiled?
    Mr. Macleod: I am really anxious to help the hon. Lady, but she must realise that she has asked me a question about a coliform test which does not exist, in relation to three grades of milk none of which exist. In view of that, it is difficult to give a more detailed answer.

    Tonteg Hospital, Pontypridd (Tuberculosis)
    Mr. Pearsonasked the Minister of Health whether, having regard to the heavy waiting list in the Pontypridd and Rhondda area and the disproportionate maintenance cost involved in the present limited occupation, he will consider facilitating to the utmost of his power the completion of the scheme for the adaptation of the Tonteg Hospital, near Pontypridd, for the treatment of tuberculosis.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I hope it will be possible to commence the final stage of this particular scheme early next year.

    Tuberculosis (B.C.G. Vaccine)
    Sir H. Roperasked the Minister of Health how far experience has shown the effectiveness of the new B.C.G. vaccination in combating tuberculosis; and whether he will take action to offer its protection to children leaving school.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: It is too early yet to make a firm assessment of the effectiveness of B.C.G. in this country. As regards children leaving school I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) on 21st October.
    Mr. Snow: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1946 a report was submitted to his Ministry by a mission which visited Sweden and which took professional advice on the question of the generalised use of B.C.G.? Is there not public disquiet at the slow rate of experimentation?
    Mr. Macleod: I fear that progress appears to be slow, but in Scandinavia medical opinion is by no means unanimous about the effectiveness of B.C.G. and those who advise me in this matter—the Medical Research Council—are not yet satisfied that its full effectiveness has been proved.
    Mr. Remnant: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a very considerable body of opinion in this country, including eminent medical opinion, agrees with this vaccine, and will he, in his attempt to make up the leeway on this disease, see that he is not thwarted by any dilatoriness on behalf of the Medical Research Council?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, certainly. It is true that there is a big body of medical opinion which thinks that we should press on faster than we are doing with B.C.G.; but there is also a large body of medical opinion which holds that we should wait until we know fully whether it will be effective.
    Dr. Stross: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the percentage of reactors among school leavers is showing an increase and that the school population therefore shows itself to be more susceptible when leaving school now than formerly? Is that not an important factor?
    Mr. Macleod: It is a very important factor and is probably the most valuable field of all for experimentation. As the hon. Member knows, the Medical Research Council are, in fact, experimenting in that field now.
    Mr. Hastings: Is not there a considerable danger in encouraging people to trust to vaccine instead of hygiene and the laws of nature?

    Cancer Research
    Mr. J. Hallasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the constant appeal for funds on behalf of the British Empire Cancer Campaign; and if he will consider increasing Government assistance to facilitate the work of this worthy cause.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The extension of cancer research financed from Government funds is constantly under review by my Department in consultation with the Medical Research Council. But I should not wish to discourage appeals by bodies like this to enable them to assist additional research activities.
    Mr. Hall: Does not the Minister think it would be better if the Government took over the whole of the contributions to the Medical Research Council rather than have this work restricted by inadequate subscriptions from voluntary organisations?
    Mr. Macleod: It is an arguable matter. Personally, I would say no. I think it is best that the Government continue, through the Medical Research Council, voluntary hospitals and the universities, to pursue their own investigations, but
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    that that should not bar a voluntary body from proceeding on lines which are perhaps outside what the Government themselves are trying to do.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is evidence of a certain amount of friction among bodies concerned with the study and cure of cancer? Would he do all in his power to bring them together, because it seems to me that this is essentially a matter which should have a forward drive on the part of everybody, even if there is not quite agreement on the methods used?
    Mr. Macleod: I am fully in sympathy with my hon. and gallant Friend's point of view.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Does not the Minister think that the nation's values are wrong when there is no limit to the expenditure on atomic research while there is a limit to the grants which the Government are prepared to make towards the discovery of a cure for a disease which is killing thousands every year?
    Mr. Macleod: There is not necessarily any limit at all. I made a close investigation into this very shortly after I became Minister and I was satisfied that research was not being held up in any way through lack of finance.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Prescription Forms (Size)
    Miss Burtonasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the charge payable to chemists for prescriptions varies according to the size of the doctor's handwriting; and if he will arrange for prescription forms to be larger, or for continuation sheets to be used.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: No, Sir. I think there is normally ample room for a doctor to write whatever he considers necessary.
    Miss Burton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have here a letter from an old-age pensioner in Coventry who suffers from paralysis and finds it difficult to write? He states in this letter that the doctor to whom he goes has, unfortunately, large handwriting and that it takes

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    two pages to write out a prescription? Is the Minister aware that this man is charged 2s. instead of 1s. and that he cannot afford it? Will the Minister look into this matter again?
    Mr. Macleod: I am delighted to look into anything that the hon. Lady brings to my notice, but up to the present I have seen no evidence of this need and I believe that the present size of Form E.C. 10 is ample.

    Orthodontic Treatment, Kettering
    Mr. Mitchisonasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that orthodontic treatment is not provided under the National Health Service either by any dentist in Kettering or by the Kettering General Hospital or the Northampton General Hospital; what facilities are available for this treatment under the National Health Service within Northamptonshire; and what steps he proposes to take to provide or increase such facilities in the county and in Kettering for children and others.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I understand that several dentists in Kettering are prepared to provide orthodontic treatment under the general dental services. The regional hospital board is considering extending hospital facilities.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is the Minister aware that none of the Kettering dentists provide treatment under the Health Service, largely because of their resentment at certain delays of the Dental Estimates Board? Is he aware that there is no doubt whatever that under the Health Service the dentists, the Kettering General Hospital and the Northampton General Hospital will not provide this very necessary treatment? Is he aware—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—that the teeth and the general health of the children are suffering in consequence and will he provide for dental consultation and work to be done at one or other of these hospitals?
    Mr. Macleod: I have access to the records of the Dental Estimates Board. Up to a dozen dentists in Kettering alone have submitted estimates of orthodontic treatment, which makes nonsense of what the hon. and learned Member says.
    Mr. Mitchison——
    Mr. Speaker: In the interests of hon. Members who have Questions on the Order Paper may I make an appeal for short supplementary questions?

    Aliens (Treatment)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to the case of an Italian subject who had two years of surgical treatment at a cost of £500 to the British taxpayer, particulars of which have been sent him; and what is now the policy of Her Majesty's Government as regards free treatment to the citizens of other nations.
    Since this Question was put down, Sir, I have been informed, and I have told the Minister, that the cost is nearer £2,000 than the £500 mentioned in the Question.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I was already aware of the case to which my hon. Friend refers, and am writing more fully to him. As a matter of policy, permission is, whenever possible, refused to aliens coming to this country for the avowed purpose of obtaining free treatment under the National Health Service and hospitals are discouraged from making arrangements to this end.
    Sir W. Smithers: I understand that the Minister advocated a certain line of policy. Will he now implement what he once advocated?
    Mr. Macleod: This case, the like of which I hope does not happen again, was brought to the notice of the Ministry of Health in October, 1950. I had no responsibility for that.

    Prescription Charge
    Mr. Patonasked the Minister of Health the total charge on the National Health Service in 1951 for prescriptions under 1s. in value; and what were the sums in that amount on account of the 25 per cent. on-cost payment and the minimum dispensing fees, respectively.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I regret that this information is not available. The protion, however, must be so small as to be virtually negligible.

    Occupation Centres and Clubs
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Health (1) why, in the recent Reports, Part I, National Health Service, and Part II, On the State of the Public

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    Health, no reference was made to the number of occupation centres and clubs in the country;
    (2) the number of occupation centres and clubs at December, 1951, as compared with December, 1950; and the number on the registers of occupation centres on these dates.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Some selection is made of particular aspects of the mental health services dealt with in detail in such reports and occupational training was so dealt with in the previous report for the year ended 31st March, 1950. In December, 1951, there were 195 centres and 11 clubs, and the number attending them was 7,351. The corresponding figures in December, 1950, were 183, 12 and 6,318.
    Mr. Shepherd: In view of the considerable interest which most of those who are interested in this side of the work take in the occupation centres, will my right hon. Friend see that in future reports the relevant figures are given?
    Mr. Macleod: I know that my hon. Friend is particularly interested in this subject. The figures have continued to climb throughout this year. I shall certainly consider whether we should make a fuller statement in the next annual report.

    Chemists (Payment)
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Health if he has considered payment of interest on amounts due to chemists in respect of prescriptions under the National Health Act where such amounts have been outstanding for more than three months.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: No, Sir. Such a payment would not be justified. The payments on account which are made each month are designed to put chemists in broadly the same position as if final settlement were up to date.

    Danckwerts Award (Doctors and Assistants)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Health what portion of the Danckwerts award will be passed on to doctor assistants and trainee apprentices; and how far, in view of this award, he considers it necessary to continue payments to doctors for trainee assistants.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I cannot say what adjustments in the light of the Danckwerts award will be made in the salaries of assistants, which is a matter for the doctors who employ them.
    No changes are at present under consideration in the arrangements for paying grants to doctors who supervise the training of assistants.
    Mrs. Mann: Would the Minister consider making changes in view of the fact that when the Danckwerts recommendations were originally put forward there was no Government grant of £1,000 to doctors for what are really locums who help them in their work? We are continuing to give them £1,000 per annum, but they are not apprentices.
    Mr. Macleod: I would not agree that this is just a subsidy to locums. I think it has very much more value than that and, as the hon. Lady knows, both the original scheme and, in consequence, the Danckwerts award, were attached to principals and not to assistants.
    Major Lloyd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some difference of opinion in the medical profession as to how these sums of money should be allocated? Will he consider representations on this subject before the final recommendations are approved by the Government?
    Mr. Macleod: I have already started implementing the award of the Danckwerts money. It was passed without comment by the House before the Recess, but I shall be happy to consider any representations which are made on this important matter.

    Dentists' Fees (Identity Card)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Health how many claims for payment by dentists and others have been disallowed because the National Registration card identity number of the patient is not available; and what is the total amount involved.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am not aware of any such case.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: If I send to the Minister the most indignant letters which I have received from dentists will he see that these complaints are dealt with satisfactorily?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, of course; but surely that is a slightly different point? There may well be delay if the number is not taken, but I know of no case in which payment has been disallowed.
    Mr. Baird: If a patient attends a dentist and treatment is carried out and the patient has no identity card, what redress has the dentist? He is instructed by the Dental Estimates Board to tell the patient that he must go to the food office to get the number. If the patient does not do that, what does the dentist do then? Why is there any need for this number?
    Mr. Macleod: As the hon. Member knows, under the old N.H.I. scheme we always had numbers. One cannot possibly run a scheme without these numbers. The proper source of the information to which the hon. Member refers is the Executive Council and not the food office.
    Mr. Legh: Will my right hon. Friend resist any attempt on the part of the Opposition to have identity cards reintroduced?

  HOSPITALS

    Mental Patients (Bed Space)
    Mr. Edward Daviesasked the Minister of Health how far the present bed space in the mental hospitals fails to meet the demands of patients under treatment for mental illness.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: On 1st January, 1952, the bed space in use was overcrowded by 16,124 patients, an average of 13.5 per cent.
    Mr. Davies: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that all the available space is being used for the purpose for which it is intended? Does not the Ministry's Report say that some of the available bed space is diverted to other purposes? What other purposes are they? Ought not the right hon. Gentleman look into this matter?
    Mr. Macleod: I will certainly look at it. If the hon. Gentleman wants to raise a particular point relating to my Report, perhaps he will put a Question down.
    Mr. Shinwell: Do not the figures submitted by the right hon. Gentleman disclose a very unsatisfactory state of affairs?
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    Has he any information on what is likely to be done?
    Mr. Macleod: They disclose a most unsatisfactory state of affairs, and the reason, frankly, is that in the honeymoon period of Health Service expenditure nothing like enough attention was given to the mental health service.
    Mr. Marquand: Would the right hon. Gentleman now be able to tell us the answer to a question which I think he was unable to answer earlier, whether there are any projects for building new accommodation in mental hospitals suffering under the postponement of new capital expenditure which took place at the beginning of the year?
    Mr. Macleod: I must have notice of that.

    Nursing Staffs (Mental Hospitals)
    Mr. Edward Daviesasked the Minister of Health how much accommodation is out of use at mental hospitals owing to lack of nursing staff.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: On 1st January, 1952, the number of unstaffed beds was 1,748.
    Mr. Edward Daviesasked the Minister of Health what is the present shortage of nursing staff, male and female, respectively, in the mental hospitals; how these figures compare with those for 1951; and what special steps are being taken to overtake the shortage.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The present shortage is estimated at about 3,500 men and 7,700 women. A year ago it was estimated at about 3,000 men and 8,000 women. The problem is being closely studied by my Mental Health Advisory Committee.
    Mr. Davies: Is not this problem of under-staffing and inadequate accommodation a very old one, without apportioning blame in the matter? Is it not a question which concerns every section of the nation and one in which greater expenditure and more service from the community will have to be forthcoming? Can we do anything to attract still more young people to this vital service?
    Mr. Macleod: The recommendations of my Mental Health Advisory Committee, may, I think, help. There is a

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    particular recommendation for increased pay at the moment before the Whitley Council, and I understand that agreement has been reached on that matter. I hope that will help.
    Miss Bacon: Would the Minister agree that one of the great contributory factors in the present state of the mental hospitals is that many old people are there who ought not to be in mental hospitals at all? Is he further aware that in the Menston Hospital, which I visited recently, there were 112 patients sleeping in one ward, and that over 500 patients in the hospital are over 65 years of age, many of them bedridden and not requiring any mental attention at all?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, there is a great deal of truth in that, but beyond question the best solution is a large and expanding housing programme, and that is receiving attention.
    Mr. Beswick: Could the Minister give any idea of the percentage of the total need which these shortages represent?
    Mr. Macleod: I had better have notice of that question, which is complicated by an alteration a few months ago in the standards of bedding.

    HOSPITALS IN DURHAM COUNTY AREA PERFORMING TONSILS AND ADENOIDS OPERATIONS

    Hospital

    Waiting list of children

    Period of waiting

    Under school age

    Of school age

    Shortest

    Longest

    Gateshead Children's

    85

    224

    Immediate

    7 months

    Wickham Cottage

    14

    15

    Immediate

    5 weeks

    South Shields General

    73

    212

    1 week

    2½ years

    Inghan Infirmary

    31

    89

    15 days

    14 months

    Jarrow Palmer Memorial

    35

    87

    3 days

    2½ years

    Haiden Law, Lanchester

    69

    438

    Immediate

    1½ years

    Sunderland General

    104

    315

    Immediate

    4 months

    Hartlepools General

    64

    176

    1 week

    7 months

    Sedgefield General

    50

    150

    Immediate

    18 months

    Durham County

    33

    210

    Immediate

    15 months

    Darlington Memorial Hunden Unit

    45

    140

    Immediate

    8 weeks

    11 Hospitals

    603

    2,056

    —

    —

    I am informed that since the beginning of the National Health Service the ear, nose and throat beds in the area have been doubled and the medical staff in this specialty considerably increased. The regional hospital board propose to provide

    Tonsil and Adenoid Operations, Durham
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Health how many, and what are the names of the hospitals in the county of Durham which perform operations for tonsils and adenoids; how many children under school age and of school age are waiting for operations; what is the longest and the shortest period of waiting; and what schemes he has in mind to overcome this waiting period.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: As the reply includes a tabular statement I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Murray: Could not the right hon. Gentleman have been more explicit in this matter, because in industrial areas such as South Wales and Durham, children are having to wait over two years for an operation? Would he not try to do something about this?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, but the hon. Member has asked for details of every hospital in Durham. I would be reading them until the end of Question time if I were to give them now instead of in the tabular statement.
    Following is the statement:
    more accommodation for the purpose as soon as resources permit.
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Health how many children under school age and how many attending school are on the waiting list for tonsils and

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    adenoids operations at Dryburn Hospital and the County Hospital, County Durham; and what is the longest period of time any child has had to wait for such operation.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am informed that operations for tonsils and adenoids are not done at Dryburn Hospital. For Durham County Hospital the answer to the first part of the Question is 33 and 210 and to the second 15 months.
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Mr. J. G. Brown, 44 Red Courts, Brandon Colliery, County Durham, is being asked to pay £16 7s. for an operation to his child who was suffering from infection of the tonsils and adenoids, was losing weight and unable to attend regularly at school; that the school clinic doctor and the local family doctor agreed that an operation had to be performed; and why no date could be given to the father for the operation to take place under the provisions of the National Health Service, although it was done at once by private means.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am making inquiries and will write to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Murray: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in this case the child had to wait for years, was losing weight and losing attendance at school, apart from all the discomfort that the child was undergoing? This is a very troublesome question in Durham, and for a parent who has to work for his living this was a most unusual sum to pay. Will the Minister try to stop this racket, because this is just a method of jumping the queue?
    Mr. Macleod: I will look into all the matters which the hon. Member has raised, and will write to him.

    Hospital Costing (Reports)
    Major Lloydasked the Minister of Health whether he has now received the report of the King Edward's Hospital Fund on its hospital costing investigation; and what arrangements he is making for publication.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Yes, Sir. I have now received from both the Fund and the Nuffield Trust their reports on hospital costing, together with a joint
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    covering statement. At my request the two bodies are arranging to publish the reports as soon as possible, and copies will then be placed in the Library of the House and made available for discussion and consideration throughout the service.
    I should like to record my warm appreciation of the very valuable contribution which the two bodies have, by their reports, made to an important and difficult subject.
    Major Lloyd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that answer will be widely welcomed?

    Children's Wards (Visiting)
    Brigadier Prior-Palmerasked the Minister of Health whether he has yet received the reports from the hospital authorities on visiting in children's wards.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Yes, Sir. The reports show that of the 1,300 hospitals admitting children, all except 70 fever hospitals and 75 others allow regular visiting. Three hundred allow visits to take place daily, and the great majority of the remainder allow visits more than once a week.
    Brigadier Prior-Palmer: In that case, would my right hon. Friend circulate to those hospitals which do not permit daily visiting the evidence from those which do, with a strong recommendation that they should look into this matter and endeavour to adopt the system of daily visiting?
    Mr. Macleod: I should be very happy to consider this and I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for raising the matter because the inquiry—the result of which I have announced to the House—stems from an Adjournment debate which he initiated, I think, in March.

  DAY NURSERIES
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Health to what extent the number of day nurseries has been increased or reduced during the past year.
  Mr. Iain Macleod: The latest figures available are those for 1951, published in the Report of my Department, which show that the number of day nurseries was reduced in that year by 52.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Can the Minister say whether, so far as he can judge, the number is increasing or falling and whether, if there is a continuing fall, he is seeking to encourage or discourage that downward trend?
  Mr. Macleod: Fundamentally, the trend to which I have referred is a matter which took place mainly not under this Administration. I have no figures since then because the reports only come in yearly; but I should think that probably the trend is downward. I, personally, believe that this is a matter in which a Minister should not interfere, but that it should be left to local authorities.

  EDUCATION

    School Building
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education (1) where, in view of the number of houses being built and planned in the borough and rural district of Newcastle-under-Lyme through the agency of the National Coal Board to enable mineworkers and their families from other coalfields to come to North Staffordshire, and of the increase in the child population which will result, she will reconsider the school-building programme for Staffordshire to make provision for the children of these families;
    (2) how many new schools it is proposed to start building in the excepted district of Newcastle-under-Lyme in the year 1953–54.
    The Minister of Education (Miss Florence Horsbrugh): The local educational authority and my Department are fully aware of the arrangements being made for the rehousing of miners in the Newcastle area of Staffordshire. This will undoubtedly cause pressure of school accommodation, but I should not on my present information feel justified in adding any major project for this area to the authority's school building programme for 1953–54. One new primary school and a secondary school are already under construction at Newcastle, and another primary school is due to begin this month.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister not aware that this new situation, which has arisen since she cut the Staffordshire programme by 1,000 primary places, will
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    add several hundred children during the next few years to the normal growth of child population in this area of North Staffordshire? In view of the fact that the Newcastle Education Committee have commandeered every available bit of extra accommodation, like church halls, for classes, does not this call for some reconsideration of the programme?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I understand that about half of the 600 houses to be occupied by miners are to be occupied by local miners. I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are in close touch with the Coal Board about the dates on which the houses are to be begun, that we have increased the allocation for minor capital work to £70,000 and that the authority's school building programme for the next year amounts to £900,000.
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Minister of Education what value of school building was authorised from 1st January, 1952, to the latest convenient date; and what was the value authorised in the same period in 1951.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Between 1st January and 31st August, 1952, the value of educational building work approved in England and Wales was £27,839,000. The comparable figure for 1951 was £42,117,000.
    Mr. Mikardo: As a permanent school takes up to two and a half years to build will not this sharp fall in the allocation this year result in a severe bottleneck by 1954? Is the right hon. Lady quite indifferent to that situation and, if so, does her indifference arise from the fact that she knows she will not be Minister of Education in 1954?
    Miss Horsbrugh: No, because I still think that the new plan to start fewer schools and finish them more quickly gives us the schools. Yesterday I opened a secondary school which had been completed in 18 months. It is quite clear that we can get the schools built more quickly if we start fewer.
    Mr. Peart: Is the Minister aware that the policy of her colleagues in the Cabinet is to restrict the supply of steel for school building? It is all very well for her to get out of it in that way, but if the Minister of Supply gave the allocation of

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    steel guaranteed by the Labour Government the Minister would have no problem.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I know more about my colleagues' arrangements for steel allocation than he does. I know the figures. If the hon. Gentleman will look at the number of complaints brought to the House last year of buildings that were held up because there was not sufficient steel, so that we had schools not being completed in under four years, he would soon agree that my policy was better.
    Miss Bacon: Does not the right hon. Lady yet realise that one has to start building before one can finish them?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am fully in agreement with the hon. Lady on that, but I would ask her to consider whether it is of any use to the children and our educational system to have schools started but not finished?
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Education what capital expenditure projects of the Cornwall Education Committee exceeding £2,000 were approved by her Department for 1949–50, 1950–51, 1951–52 and 1952–53, respectively.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am sending the hon. Member a list of these projects.
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Education how many new school buildings have been provided by the Cornwall Education Committee since 1945; and what is the cost, accommodation and date of opening of each.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Two new schools have been completed in Cornwall since the war. Falmouth Primary School was built to accommodate 240 infants, the contract value of the project was £58,000 and the school was taken into use in April, 1951. Newquay County Primary School provides 160 places for infants at a contract cost of £26,474 and was opened in January, 1952.
    Mr. Hayman: Does not that reply indicate that there is ample room in Cornwall now for a number of new schools to be started, since only two have been completed in recent years? Will the right hon. Lady therefore lift the ban she has imposed on new school building?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am not responsible for the fact that since the war only two new schools were built. I am responsible for the fact that three new schools are at present under construction—Saltash, Torpoint and Newquay Secondary School.

    All-age Schools
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education what steps she is taking to provide secondary education for the 354,000 children of 11 and upwards now being taught in all-age schools.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The proportion of senior pupils in all-age schools continues to show a marked decrease. Much can be and is being done by local education authorities and teachers to meet the special needs of those who remain in all-age schools.
    Mr. Morley: Does not this large number of children of 11 and upwards who are still in primary schools make rather derisory the promise of the Education Act of 1944 to provide secondary education for all? Will the Minister encourage the local authorities concerned to get on quickly with their re-organisation schemes?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, but I am carrying on a policy decided some years ago that at present building should concentrate on new schools. I would inform the hon. Gentleman that in 1952 the percentage had fallen to 15.8 as compared with 16.9 in January, 1951, and with 18 per cent. in January, 1950. We are improving the position.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that re-organisation can very often take place within the existing accommodation, that this has been done in Cardiff, but that there is only one opportunity and one school life available for these children and that they are not having a square deal in present circumstances?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that re-organisation can take place, and that is the reason why there has been a decrease in the figures. We are going on with those schemes which have shown good results.
    Dr. King: Is the Minister aware that she has cut out of the Hampshire school

    1257
    building programme two modern secondary schools at Petersfield and Fordingbridge which would have enabled the children in that part of the county to get real secondary education? Is she aware that she has cut it out this year and next year, too?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that it is still my policy to have fewer schools started and to complete them more quickly. I can assure him that at present, at any rate, the policy is succeeding. As I informed the House last week, more school building has been done in the first half of this year than in the first half of last year.
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Education the number of all-age schools in Warwickshire; and when it is her intention to provide modern facilities for secondary education for the children of those schools.
    Miss Horsbrugh: About 80. I regret that the building of new schools solely to secure reorganisation cannot at present be justified, but every opportunity will be taken of securing the benefits of reorganisation when new school places can be justified on other grounds.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the Minister aware of the keen anxiety of all parents and teachers about this deplorable position? Is she further aware that even the Tory County Council who are usually her most docile supporters and followers in Warwickshire—are mortified about this position?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be only too glad to inform the county council that I am continuing the policy found necessary by my predecessor. I am continuing the policy of building new schools for children wanting to go to school, rather than build at present for the sake of reorganisation.

    Classes over 60
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Education how many primary and secondary school classes there are now with over 60 pupils; where these schools are situated; and what special steps are being taken to reduce the numbers in these classes.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The returns for last January showed that there were then nine classes in which there were 60 or more children being taught by one teacher. These have now been reduced in size through the provision of additional accommodation or an extra teacher.
    Mr. Dodds: Does the right hon. Lady appreciate that much of the performance up to now is as a result of what happened when Labour were in office and the plans were made? Can she give an assurance that the plans which are now being made will mean that, in spite of the increased number of children entering the schools, these large classes will become even fewer in the next 12 months than they are at present?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I can at any rate assure the hon. Gentleman that there were nine cases last January of classes of over 60 pupils and that that number has now been reduced; and that had to do with this Administration and not the last Administration. That is an improvement. I shall not receive the figures of the number in classes at present until a later date, but we have made an improvement in those nine classes.
    Mr. Swingler: Has the Minister taken note of the enormous increase in the number of classes with over 50 pupils, and is that not a terrible condemnation of the fact that she has cut down the number of schools under construction from the 464 which were started in the first six months of 1951 to the 128 started in the first six months of this year?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I have the numbers, and if the hon. Gentleman likes to put down a Question asking for the number of classes over 50, I shall be willing to give him all the facts. But I would also point out that the problem is the number of teachers we require for the extra number of children. The fact still remains that we are getting schools quicker at present. We are not starting more—I think too many were started—but we are getting school places quicker than under the previous Administration.

    University Awards
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education how many local authorities have informed her that they are proposing

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    to adopt the standard rates of assistance for major awards mentioned in Administrative Memorandum No. 425.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Of 129 authorities which have so far informed me of their proposals for the academic year 1952–53, 98 have accepted either wholly or substantially the revised standard figures I have recommended. In 10 cases these are provisional decisions still subject to confirmation.
    Mr. Morley: Since there are about 150 local education authorities, does not the answer mean that about 40 have not adopted the policy laid down in the Ministry's memorandum? What steps will she take to guide them into the paths of virtue?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Altogether, 17 authorities have not yet reached a decision. In most cases they are awaiting the meeting of a committee. In addition, 31 authorities have not accepted the new rates.
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education the total number of new major awards which local education authorities have notified her, following her request in Circular 252, as being their intention to grant this year.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Altogether, 113 authorities gave me a forecast of the number of new university awards they expected to be taken up this autumn. The total for these authorities shows a slight drop when compared with the total for the same authorities for 1951.
    Mr. Morley: Is not that policy contrary to the spirit of the right hon. Lady's memorandum?
    Miss Horsbrugh: The drop among the 130 authorities is slight—the difference between 7,242 and 7,507. But I would inform the hon. Gentleman that the number of State scholarships taken up is 400 more than last year.

    Technical College Students
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Education if she is now in a position to give the numbers of full-time and part-time students, respectively, in technical colleges for the session 1951–52; and what are the similar numbers for the session, beginning September, 1952.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The figures for 1951–52 will not be available until early in 1953. No statistics are submitted at the beginning of a session.
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Education why she has not issued recommendations to local authorities regarding the awards to technical college students as suggested by the National Union of Students.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I prefer to leave this matter to local education authorities, who are usually in a better position than I am to judge the appropriate rates.

    Teacher Training Colleges (Vacancies)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Education how many places remained vacant in the teacher training colleges at their opening in October, 1952.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The latest but still not quite final returns showed some 500 vacancies in teacher training colleges for courses beginning this autumn.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the Minister aware that one place vacant is one too many in these colleges? In view of her earlier statement about the large numbers of large classes, what does she intend to do in this most serious situation?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I quite agree that we want as many vacancies taken up as possible. There are about 100 more vacancies this year than last year. The decrease in the number of women taking up places is 150 and the increase in the number of men is 50, but I would add that, as more left the training colleges, that gave us a larger percentage of places to be taken up this year than ever before.

    Science and Mathematics Teachers
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Education how many secondary grammar schools are short of their establishment of science teachers; what is the prime cause of the shortage; and what steps she proposes to take to remedy it.
    Mr. M. MacPhersonasked the Minister of Education, in view of the Government's proposals for the expansion of higher technological education, what steps she intends to take in order to

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    ensure that enough science and mathematics teachers of the requisite quality are available in the schools to train prospective students.
    Miss Horsbrugh: While I have no precise information, there is no doubt that the schools need more mathematics and science teachers than they are able to recruit. The main reason is that the total demand for qualified scientists in all fields is greater than the supply. The number of graduates in these subjects completing courses of professional training as teachers who have obtained or are seeking posts in maintained schools amounted to 543 this year as compared with 418 last year.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that there has been a shortage of science teachers for a considerable time and that it has been brought about because in industry they are offered from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. more salary than they were getting from the Minister? Will she give consideration to the salary factor in attracting and holding them to the scholastic profession.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I quite agree that there has been a shortage of these teachers, but I think the hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that there is an increase this year.

    Denominational Schools (Financial Position)
    Mr. Slaterasked the Minister of Education whether the consultations with interested bodies in regard to the financial position of denominational schools have yet resulted in any definite proposals; and when she expects to be in a position to announce the proposals in detail and introduce any necessary measure.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, but I cannot say yet when my proposals can be announced.
    Mr. Slater: Is the Minister in that very short answer—short in every way—seeking to indicate to the House that there is every possibility that these proposals will be introduced during the next Session?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I think I must leave that to the hon. Member to consider for himself.
    Mr. Mellish: Could the right hon. Lady explain why the Bill to benefit the brewers came up before this particular Bill?

    Training Colleges (Young Students)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Education whether she will now abandon the system whereby young students are required to sign a declaration or other document committing them to teach in consideration of their receiving assets.
    Miss Horsbrugh: No, Sir, so far as concerns students entering training colleges for teachers.
    Mr. Willey: Would the right hon. Lady look at this again? It is a small matter, and I think she would agree that this serves no useful purpose and is vexatious. Would it not be better now to accept the recommendations of the McNair Committee?
    Miss Horsbrugh: No, I do not agree. I think that in these difficult times, when we are wanting teachers, we should have this for those going into the training colleges.

    Retired Teachers' Pensions (Payment)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Education the total number of retired teachers receiving pension; and on what basis she has calculated that it would cost an additional £1 million to enable those who wish to have their pension paid monthly instead of quarterly as at present.
    Mr. George Craddockasked the Minister of Education if she will give full details of how the extra cost of £1 million per annum for paying teachers pensions monthly instead of quarterly is made up.
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Minister of Education whether her estimate of £1 million as the extra cost involved in paying retired teachers' pensions monthly, on application, rather than quarterly, is based upon the assumption that all retired teachers would apply for this concession.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The number of teacher pensioners in England and Wales at the end of last month was 73,863. The estimated additional charge which would fall on my Vote if all these teacher pensioners had their pensions paid monthly instead of quarterly would be of the order of £1 million in the year of change because in that year many of them would

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    be receiving sums equivalent to 13 or 14 monthly payments. In addition there would be a continuing increased charge for the administration by the Paymaster-General of the greatly increased number of payments that would need to be made.
    Mr. Dodds: The Minister has been talking about a shortage of teachers. Even if this were correct, does she not appreciate that the teachers' salaries are not and never have been sufficient to save enough to support them in old age; and if they are entitled to a pension, why cannot they have it monthly like other people? If she will not attend to this, how can she encourage young people to enter the teaching profession, when they are discriminated against like this?
    Miss Horsbrugh: If the hon. Gentleman will look again at the scheme for teachers' pensions he will find that, in addition to the quarterly pension, when the teacher retires he or she gets a lump sum. Therefore, if they choose to use some of that lump sum in the first quarter they still continue to have a quarter's pension in advance. If the hon. Gentleman will look at it he will see that the payments are agreed by the large proportion of teachers as the best scheme, with the lump sum which does not occur in most of the other pension schemes.
    Mr. Craddock: Does not the right hon. Lady think that £1 million to make out cheques and envelopes in triplicate is an excessive amount of money? Surely this might be looked into again. I agree with my hon. Friend that many teachers have little money to keep them going, and depend largely upon their pensions. Everything should be done to enable them to have their pensions monthly instead of quarterly.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I quite agree, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have looked at this very carefully. It would mean a great increase in the number of staff to deal with it. If it were not for the fact that when the teacher retires there is that lump sum there would be much more of a case for thinking that the pensioner might be out of pocket, but if we give the lump sum on retirement and then pay quarterly we can deal with these difficult cases.

    Adult Education, York (Grants)
    Mr. D. Brookasked the Minister of Education if she is aware that the York City education authority has withdrawn all its grants for adult education in the city; and what action she proposes to take in the matter.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, Sir. I have already told the authority that I fully agree with their policy of effecting economies but that I regret that they have taken the drastic action on which they have decided in this matter.
    Mr. Brook: But did not the right hon. Lady say in her original circular to local authorities that she did not want them to economise on the essential fabric of education? Did not the 1944 Act lay upon local education authorities an obligation to provide adult education facilities and will she not, therefore, do something much more positive in the way of asking local authorities not to economise in this field?
    Miss Horsbrugh: As I have already said, I have communicated with the local authority. The hon. Gentleman is probably aware that there are certain direct grants from the Ministry to adult education.
    Mr. Brook: Is not the right hon. Lady aware that direct grants from the Ministry do not compensate the voluntary organisations for the loss of grant from the local education authority?
    Miss Horsbrugh: It does not compensate them because they get that in addition. The local authority contribution is in addition to the grant.

  ATOM BOMB TEST, AUSTRALIA
  Sir I. Fraserasked the Prime Minister whether he will now make a statement on the results of the atom bomb test in Australia.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall be making a statement at the end of Questions.

  MINISTRY OF FOOD (FUTURE)
  Mr. Hurdasked the Prime Minister if he has yet decided a time-table for the run-down of the Ministry of Food and the ultimate transfer of any necessary remaining functions to other Departments.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The future of the Ministry of Food depends mainly on the progress we make in overcoming our economic difficulties. I shall certainly not permit any unnecessary administrative Departments to continue either in the Ministry of Food or elsewhere.
  Mr. Hurd: Yes, but may we take it that the Prime Minister will encourage our right hon. and gallant Friend in his declared ambition to be the last Minister of Food?
  The Prime Minister: Hopes—I am not speaking in any personal sense—must never be translated into promises.
  Mr. Chetwynd: Will the Prime Minister give an assurance that he will not allow rationing by the purse to replace fair shares for all, and, therefore, deprive that Ministry of its effect?
  Mr. Shinwell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman really mean that Tory promises should never be translated into hopes?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is seeking information.
  Mr. Shinwell: Would not the right hon. Gentleman elucidate the point? It is somewhat complex.
  The Prime Minister: Quite a lot of complicated situations arise in political life, as no one knows better than the former Minister of Defence.

  ATOMIC RESEARCH (BRITISH PARTICIPATION)
  Mr. Peartasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on British participation in the European Council for Atomic Research.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the Written answer given to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) on Tuesday, 21st October.
  Mr. Peart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the decision not to participate seems strange—it may be the right policy—in view of the flamboyant speeches the Prime Minister himself made on European unity?
  The Prime Minister: Well, there are a lot of strange things in the world.

  COMMONWEALTH DEFENCE
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed to consider the subject of defence at the forthcoming Commonwealth conference.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The Commonwealth Economic Conference will be concerned with matters of financial, commercial and economic policy.
  Mr. Shinwell: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the nature of the proposed conference, may I ask if it is contemplated that he will have a conference with the Commonwealth countries on the subject of defence in order to stimulate them to make rather more adequate contributions to Commonwealth defence?
  The Prime Minister: This particular conference deals with matters of finance, commerce, and economic policy. It does not, of course, follow that informal conversations between Dominion Ministers and United Kingdom Ministers may not take place on other topics from time to time.
  Mr. Shinwell: Yes, but this is a very important matter, this question of Commonwealth defence. Will the right hon. Gentleman not take steps, in those "off the cuff" conversations, to stimulate those colleagues from the Commonwealth countries to make a larger contribution to Commonwealth defence?
  The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman would assist me, perhaps I may be furnished with the series of speeches he has made on the subject, which I could certainly place at their disposal.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is the Prime Minister not singularly ill-informed on this subject? Is he not aware that about 18 months ago a Commonwealth Defence Conference was held in London, and that

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  reports of that Conference are available to the Prime Minister and the Government?
  Mr. S. Silverman: Would the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House how the Commonwealth, in the present world situation, could possibly discuss economics and finance unless the problem of defence were also included?
  The Prime Minister: For a long time the conditions in which this conference will take place have been announced to Parliament. It is not proposed to make any departure from them at the present time.

  WELSH AFFAIRS (UNDER-SECRETARY)
  Mr. G. Thomasasked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to nominate a successor to the hon. Member for Cardiff, North, as Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department and Welsh Affairs.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Thomas: While thanking the Prime Minister for that very full reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that the Welsh people fully understand his difficulties in this matter and the reasons for delay, and that they are conscious that it is they who impose the limitations on his possible selection?
  The Prime Minister: As the matter is so evidently complex I am sure it would be only reasonable for the House to allow all leisure and opportunity to the Government in order that they may make a right decision.

  CORONATION (TELEVISION)
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Prime Minister what advice was tendered by Her Majesty's Government in connection with the arrangements for televising the Coronation ceremony.
  The Prime Minister: This is not a matter on which Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, or indeed Ministers of the Crown alone advise the Crown, and I do not feel able to make any statement on the subject at present.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the Prime Minister aware that it is reported that the advice of the Cabinet was sought; that the ban on television has caused bitter disappointment to a very large number of loyal subjects; and will he, therefore, be so kind as to make representations, either to lift or to modify the ban so that this historic national occasion is not unnecessarily marred by a widespread sense of grievance?
  The Prime Minister: There are several Questions on the Order Paper for next week on this subject and I should prefer to reserve anything I have to say until then.

ATOM BOMB TEST, AUSTRALIA
The Prime Minister: With your permission, Sir, I shall now make a statement in answer to Question No. 45, asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser).
The object of the test was to investigate the effects of an atomic explosion in a harbour. The weapon was accordingly placed in H.M.S. "Plym," a frigate of 1,450 tons, which was anchored in the Monte Bello Islands.
Conditions were favourable and care was taken to wait for southerly winds so as to avoid the possibility of any significant concentration of radio-active particles spreading over the Australian mainland.
Specimen structures of importance to Civil Defence and to the Armed Services were erected at various distances. Instruments were set up to record the effect of contamination, blast, heat flash, gamma ray flash and other factors of interest.
The weapon was exploded in the morning of 3rd October. Thousands of tons of water and of mud and rock from the sea bottom were thrown many thousands of feet into the air and a high tidal wave was caused. The effects of blast and radio-active contamination extended over a wide area and H.M.S. "Plym" was vaporised except for some red hot fragments which were scattered over one of the islands and started fires in the dry vegetation.

1269
Very soon after the explosion two naval officers undertook the dangerous task of flying helicopters over the heavily contaminated lagoon where "Plym" had lain. This was in order to take samples of the water so that its radio-activity could be measured. After a longer interval, scientists and Service personnel in protective clothing entered the contaminated area to examine the effect and to recover records.
Technical descriptions of the performance of the bomb cannot, of course, be given. It may, however, be said that the weapon behaved exactly as expected and forecast in many precise details by Dr. W. G. Penney, whose services were of the highest order. Scientific observations and measurements show that the weapon does not contradict the natural expectation that progress in this sphere would be continual.
To give some idea of the character of the explosion perhaps I might say this: normal blood temperature is 98⅖ degrees. Many of us go over 100 degrees. When the flash first burst through the hull of "Plym" the temperature was nearly I million degrees. It was, of course, far higher at the point of explosion.
The explosion caused no casualties to the personnel of the expedition. No animals were used in the test. Apart from some local rats which were killed, no mammals were seen in the affected area and such birds as there were had mostly been frightened away by the earlier preparations.
Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom wish to express their indebtedness for all the help received from Australia. Not only did the Australian Commonwealth allow us to use their territory for the test, but all branches of their Government, and particularly the Navy, Army and Air Force, gave us most valuable collaboration in the preparation and execution of this most important experiment.
All those concerned in the production of the first British atomic bomb are to be warmly congratulated on the successful outcome of an historic episode and I should no doubt pay my compliments to the Leader of the Opposition and the party opposite for initiating it.
Sir I. Fraser: Can my right hon. Friend say whether any new scientific knowledge has emerged which will lead to improved weapons or to a speedier use of nuclear fission in industrial matters?
The Prime Minister: I have carefully considered the terms of the statement I have made to the House, and I do not wish to add to them at the present moment.
Mr. Shinwell: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the United States authorities have asked for information about the results of the test, and whether, if it is intended to furnish them with information, it will be on the basis of reciprocity?
The Prime Minister: The original arrangements made in the war were, of course, on the basis of strict equality and reciprocity. Those results were superseded by other arrangements after the war. We have conducted this operation ourselves, and I do not doubt that it will lead to a much closer American interchange of information than has hitherto taken place—than has taken place in the last two years—but I do not wish to make any statement on the subject.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that the note of flippancy which crept into his statement will appal many people who visualise what would happen to us in this country if an atomic bomb were dropped in the Port of London? Is it not now quite clear that this country is in enormous danger and that the atom bomb ought to be exported to America?
The Prime Minister: I think that this raises very large issues. There is no question of flippancy in what I say. I am only stating the facts. One may be confronted with very terrible facts—we live in a very terrible age—but there is no reason why we should lose our spirits.
Mr. Beswick: Would the Prime Minister not agree that the bombs which the Americans originally exploded would not have been possible had it not been for the contributions of Dr. Penney, and furthermore, would he not agree that Dr. Penney himself would not have helped create the weapon which was exploded in Australia had it not been for his experience in the laboratories of the United

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States? If we are to have further progress in this matter, in the civil and military field, would it not be better if we could get the closest possible co-operation between the United States and ourselves, and will he do all that he possibly can to facilitate that co-operation?
The Prime Minister: There are a very large number of important people in the United States concerned with this matter who have been most anxious for a long time that Britain should be kept better informed. This event will greatly facilitate and support the task which these gentlemen have set themselves.
Mr. S. Silverman: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House approximately what was the total cost of this experimental explosion, and will he bear in mind that to some of us it is no comfort at all to realise that both the major parties in the State are equally responsible for this colossal folly?
The Prime Minister: I do not know that we are equally responsible. We took the matter up at the point at which it was left to us. It seems to me that the problem is one which faces us all equally. Even if one sits below the Gangway, one does not escape the responsibility.
Mr. Silverman: What about the cost?
The Prime Minister: As to the cost, I have said before, as an old Parliamentarian, that I was rather astonished that well over £100 million should be disbursed without Parliament being made aware of it. I was a bit astonished. However, there is the story, and we now have a result which on the whole, I think, will be beneficial to public safety. As for the future, I think we must be guided by the precedents established under the last régime as to detailed accounts and the way in which the expenditure is recorded.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank): Yes, Sir, the business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 27TH OCTOBER—Report and Third Reading:
Visiting Forces Bill [Lords].
Cinematograph Bill [Lords].
Committee and remaining stages:
Agriculture (Poisonous Substances) Bill [Lords].
Prisons (Scotland) Bill [Lords].
TUESDAY, 28TH OCTOBER—Debate on Fuel and Power with particular reference to the Ridley Report.
Lords Amendments:
Intestates' Estates Bill, for which the Government propose to give facilities.
Motion to approve Purchase Tax (No. 2) Order.
WEDNESDAY, 29TH OCTOBER—Debate on Civil Aviation and the Reports from B.O.A.C. and B.E.A.
THURSDAY, 30TH OCTOBER—If all the necessary business is completed in the early part of the week, it is proposed to meet at 11 a.m. Questions will be taken until 12 noon, and afterwards a debate will take place on the Danckwerts award on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
It is expected that Prorogation will take place at about 2.30 p.m.
During the week it may be necessary to take other business and consider any Amendments to Bills which may be received from another place.
In regard to the business for today, after the debate on the Iron and Steel White Paper we propose to ask the House to consider the Motions to approve the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations and the Draft Civil Defence (Appropriation of Lands and Buildings) Regulations.
These Orders were down for consideration last night, but owing to the length of the Sitting were postponed until today.
Mr. L. M. Lever: Can the Leader of the House tell us on what date we are likely to have submitted to us legislation to amend the Education Act, 1944, in regard to the position of the non-provided schools? Now that the Government have been in office for nearly a year, is there any likelihood of amending legislation being introduced in the very near future, in view of the dire needs of the non-provided schools?
Mr. Crookshank: There is certainly no likelihood of its being done before the Prorogation at 2.30 p.m. on Thursday.
Mr. Lever: I do not think that this is a matter for amusement. We are asking the Leader of the House to come face to face with a problem which is giving many of us great anxiety. We want to know whether legislation is likely to be introduced in the near future, and that is not a matter for laughter.
Mr. Crookshank: Nobody has laughed except the hon. Gentleman. Surely he has been in the House long enough to realise that the Queen's Speech is the occasion on which the Government's programme for the Session is disclosed to Parliament. The Queen's Speech will take place in a very few days' time.
Mr. Lever: Is there any likelihood of the legislation being mentioned in the Queen's Speech?
Mr. Speaker: That question is out of order.
Mr. Perkins: On a point of order. What has happened to the British Museum Bill?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.

IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY (GOVERNMENT POLICY)
3.44 p.m.
The Minister of Supply (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I beg to move,
That this House approves the policy of Her Majesty's Government in regard to the Iron and Steel Industry as set out in Command Paper No. 8619.
In presenting to the House the Government's proposals in regard to the future of this great industry, we have two main objectives. The first is to restore conditions of independence, initiative and enterprise in the iron and steel industry, which, I may say straight away, we do not consider to be possible under State ownership. The other objective is to provide effective means for the supervision of the whole of the iron and steel industry and so bring to an end the arbitrary division which was created by the 1949 Act.
The present organisation set up by that Act possesses all the usual and fundamental weaknesses of any system of nationalisation. Despite the well-meaning—I am not suggesting that they were not sincere—references in that Act to the desirability of de-centralisation, it is clear that the continuance of a system of nationalisation, if it is to be a reality, must mean the progressive tightening of central control in the steel industry.
It must mean control of the finance of the steel companies by the State Corporation and, through that, control of the major policy of each one of those companies. The fact that the steel companies are accountable to the State Corporation, which, unlike an ordinary body of shareholders, is in continuous session and has its own staff of experts, must inevitably sap the individual initiative of the companies and create among them an over-cautious and bureaucratic outlook. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] That cannot really be denied unless, of course, nationalisation is not to be a reality but is to be just a façade and the Corporation is to put its rubber stamp on practically anything that any of the companies may propose, in which case it creates among the companies and upon their boards an attitude of financial irresponsibility and is a direct temptation to them to put forward extravagant schemes.
Another result of the 1949 nationalisation has been to create a vast State

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monopoly, a monopoly outside the purview of the Monopolies Commission and one which provides no adequate protection for the consumer. It is true that there is a Consumers' Council, but I submit to the House that this form of indirect consultation is no substitute for the direct participation of the consumers on the supervisory Board which we now propose.
Furthermore, nationalisation has created a very serious anomaly. In the process of nationalisation, the State was inevitably obliged to take over extensive engineering and other extraneous activities outside the steel industry because they happened to form part of the undertakings of the companies which were nationalised. It is altogether inappropriate that a state steel corporation should control and finance large businesses in other industries which are not nationalised, like bridge-building and chemicals, both at home and abroad.
The purpose of the Iron and Steel Act of 1949 was to nationalise large sections of the steel industry and not to introduce all sorts of extraneous activities and bring them under the control of the State. It is interesting to note that, although the profits from these outside sources have undoubtedly helped to swell the revenue of the nationalised industry, the State Corporation in its recent report thought it worth while to suggest that it might be desirable to consider making other arrangements for carrying on these outside activities.
But perhaps the most unsatisfactory of all the features of the present system is that it has resulted in splitting the industry arbitrarily into two, into a private and a public sector. The 1949 Act did not provide in any way for the supervision of the industry as a whole, and the job of reconciling the differences between the various interests in the industry which overlap the rather haphazard boundaries delineated by the 1949 Act now falls to the Government, which means to the Ministry of Supply. We do not consider this to be desirable.
That is by no means a theoretical point. In the last 12 months I have seen for myself that the Government have had to be brought in on a number of occasions to resolve all sorts of differences between various branches of the iron and steel
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industry both in the public and private sectors—for example, over the question of the distribution of coke and pig iron as between the steel makers and the foundries. In fact, I am convinced, that, even if nationalisation were to continue, a radical change in the present organisation would be necessary. Some new body, divorced from the responsibility of ownership, would have to be created to handle the common problems of the iron and steel industry as a whole, and I have no doubt that hon. Members opposite, coming fresh from their party meeting this morning, will be the first to appreciate the advantage of having one body whose authority extends over the whole field, including the private sector.
Mr. I. Mikardo: Comic cuts.
Mr. Sandys: The basic defects of principle and organisation to which I have referred in the existing system would be serious in any industry. They are doubly serious in an industry which is responsible for providing the basic raw materials for about half of our export trade.
I thought it right to explain at the beginning of the debate why we do not feel able to leave things as they are. The changes which we propose in the White Paper flow quite naturally from our criticism of the present system. We published our proposals in considerable detail because we wanted to give an opportunity for considered criticism and constructive suggestions for the improvement of the scheme before the introduction of the Bill. I think I may fairly claim that the reception given so far to the White Paper has been encouraging. There has been very little unfavourable criticism of an objective character. Even the reactions from the party opposite have been very mild. Apart from a few half-hearted growls. they have really hardly reacted at all.
Mr. C. R. Hobson: Just wait.
Mr. Sandys: So far they have hardly reacted at all. The truth is that the White Paper has come as a big disappointment to the party opposite because it has turned out to be far less controversial than they had expected and hoped.
Mr. Hobson: See what Cleveland says.
Mr. Sandys: Also, it seems that they have been rather put off their stroke by

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finding that some of our proposals bear a certain similarity to the scheme worked out between the British Iron and Steel Federation and the late Government—a scheme which was toyed with for some time by right hon. Gentlemen opposite before they decided upon nationalisation.
To carry out our two objectives, we propose to set up two distinct bodies, a Board to supervise the industry and an Agency to take over and dispose of the assets now owned by the State. The Agency will act on behalf of the Treasury in a dual capacity, as a holding company and as a disposals organisation. It will be financed by the Treasury and any money it receives over and above its current needs will be paid into the Exchequer. We propose to give to the Agency very wide discretion in the planning and timing of its selling operations, and we propose to give it power to effect amalgamations and modifications of capital structure in the companies before offering them for sale.
Mr. Mikardo: Job lots for the boys.
Mr. Sandys: All these operations, including, of course, the question of the actual terms of sale, will require to be approved by the Treasury, who will be answerable to Parliament in regard to them. They will also be required to seek the approval of the Iron and Steel Board for their proposed amalgamations.
The question of the terms of sale has been discussed a great deal and we propose to do our best to see that fair prices are calculated. We have not got the advantage which hon. Members opposite had at the time of nationalisation of having Stock Exchange quotations, but we intend to do our best to calculate a fair price in each case, fair to the investor and fair to the public purse. A variety of factors will have to be taken into account in deciding what is a fair price. These are set out pretty fully in the White Paper.
Investors will be able to present iron and steel stock in payment for steel shares. I have seen it suggested that iron and steel stock should be accepted from former shareholders not at their current market values, but at par. I think there would be some justice in that claim if the price which was to be asked for the steel shares was to be rigidly related to the compensation values; but since the
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prices will be based upon current values—and that is the only fair basis that we can take—I think it is quite right that Government stocks should be valued on the same footing.
These large and complicated selling operations are bound to take some time. We have said quite frankly in the White Paper that they may take some years. It is much better not to underrate the difficulty which we shall have in undoing the harm which was done by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. There is some fear, which I have seen expressed in different quarters, that during the transition period the plans for the expansion and modernisation of the steel industry may be held up by lack of finance. There is no danger of that. Once the companies are returned to private enterprise, it will, of course, be the responsibility of their boards of directors to find finance for development. But so long as they continue to be held by the Agency, that body will be able to seek from the Treasury the finance needed to carry through modernisation and development schemes.
Mr. Mikardo: Public finance for private profit.
Mr. Sandys: The hon. Gentleman did not hear what I said, which was that so long as the companies continue to be held by the Agency, this is to say, continue to be State-owned, they will continue to receive financial facilities from the Treasury which are now open to them. In other words——
Mr. Mikardo: In order to create capacity which will make them a profitable thing to sell. That precisely makes my point. This is the use, currently, of public finance in order to create future private profit.
Mr. Sandys: That is a distortion of the position.
Mr. Mikardo: That is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman said.
Mr. Sandys: If additional capital is invested in these businesses before they are sold, obviously their value will increase and the prices to be asked for them will be put up.
I have seen some anxiety expressed in connection with one point which I should like to mention in passing. The Bill will include a Clause providing compensation

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in appropriate cases for employees of nationalised companies who may suffer as a result of amalgamations or in other ways. Here I should like also to say a word about a point not mentioned in the White Paper, the question of supervision of monopolistic practices. The late Government, in accordance with their policy exempted the nationalised industries from the operations of the Monopolies Commission. As the steel companies return to private ownership they will, of course, automatically come within the scope of the Commission, but we also propose to provide that, even while the companies continue to be held by the Agency, they will be made subject to the same rules as everybody else and will not, just because they are State-owned, be given a privileged and sheltered position.
Mr. Austen Albu: Does that mean that the Monopolies Commission will have the right to investigate the reasons which led the Ministry of Supply to raise the price of steel?
Mr. Sandys: That has nothing to do with the point, which is that if these companies individually engage in anything in the nature of restrictive practices, they will come within the competence and scope of the Monopolies Commission. We will put in a Clause which will not make them subject to any reproach from the fact that they happen to be held by the Agency, but which will ensure that all the individual companies will be subject to the same scrutiny by the Monopolies Commission as private companies.
I do not propose to say anything about what has become known as "the Strauss threat," except to make it clear—[Interruption.] I am sure that the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) knows quite well to what I refer, the remarks made in his speech a year ago.
Mr. G. R. Strauss: To call it a threat of mine is, of course, ridiculous. I was just expressing my own personal opinion.
Mr. Sandys: I should like to say a word about that in a moment. No threat of any kind will deflect us from our purpose to restore the steel industry to private ownership. The right hon. Gen-
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tleman said that he was not speaking for himself.
Mr. Strauss: I was speaking for the party.
Mr. Sandys: It is good to know that, because since then a much more carefully considered statement of Socialist policy has been issued, in the pamphlet called "Facing the Facts." It is just worth noting what is said there. [An HON. MEMBER: "Read it."] I will read it. It is quite short. It says:
"Labour pledges itself, wherever the public interest requires, to restore to public ownership those sections of the transport and iron and steel industries which are sold to private buyers."
This is a much more equivocal statement than the one which the right hon. Gentleman made. The operative words clearly are "wherever the public interest requires," and I have no doubt that that phrase took quite a lot of working out and that it covers quite a wide divergence of view. At least it has one merit, that it still leaves the issue open. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh, no."] It does. It qualifies it by the words "wherever the public interest requires."
Mr. Mikardo: The City will not be kidded by this.
Mr. Sandys: Of course, it was not explained in what way the public interest required the nationalisation of the steel industry in the first place. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) made an admirable remark in 1945, when he was still fresh at the beginning of his term of office, that the onus of proof is on the nationalisers. I do ask——
Mr. Herbert Morrison: Can the right hon. Gentleman and anybody else opposite never finish this quotation? I said that, and say it again. I think I am going to say it this weekend. Why does not the right hon. Gentleman finish my quotation? It was:
"and the onus of proof for capitalist ownership is on the anti-nationalisers."
Mr. Sandys: I have here what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I think he made a revised version of it later. He said:
"I agree that, in the argument about nationalisation, there is the onus upon the party that is proceeding to nationalise, to prove that the nationalisation is in the public interest."
Several Hon. Members: Read on.
Mr. Sandys: Of course I will read on:
"I agree that the party in power proposing these things ought not to do it for political or doctrinaire considerations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December, 1945; Vol. 416, c. 2637.]
Mr. Morrison: That is quite all right. It is sensible and I adhere to it. It arose in the course of debate. If I remember rightly, the original statement was made in Canada. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I am not departing from that at all; I adhere to it most firmly; but I said then, and I said it persistently, that there is a deeper obligation upon the antinationalisers to prove their case. Surely that is reasonable?
Mr. Sandys: I think that is a very weak way out of the difficulty. What I want to know is what proof was ever provided that it was in the national interest to nationalise the steel industry? What proof was there? The industry was working smoothly and efficiently. It was beating every production target set by the late Government.
Mr. Jack Jones: It still is.
Mr. Sandys: It was constantly being praised by Labour Ministers for that. It was actively expanding its production capacity up to the very limit.
Mr. Jones: It still is.
Mr. Sandys: Its prices were almost the lowest in the world. Its labour relations were exemplary. I think the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) has testified to that on more than one occasion. It was co-operating closely with the Government——
Mr. Jones: It still is.
Mr. Sandys: That was the case against the steel industry! Clearly the public interest required that it should be nationalised! I am sorry to quote the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South again, but he makes some very apposite remarks. He once said in the same connection that the steel problem
"is not in its essence a matter of party politics at all, it is, in its essence, a business matter."
Again we can agree with the right hon. Gentleman. That is what we have been saying all along. Yet I think the House will agree with me that party politics is
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the only explanation we can find for the nationalisation of the steel industry. If I may adapt the right hon. Gentleman's phrase, I would say that it is our intention as a matter of practical—[An HON. MEMBER: "Party politics."]—as a matter of practical business to undo the wrong that was done as a matter of party politics. [An HON. MEMBER: "You are making heavy weather."]
Let me move into calmer waters. The Bill is divided into two parts. One deals with the transfer of ownership and the other with the supervision of the industry. On the supervision of the industry, while we may have differences as to organisation, the acute issue of ownership does not arise. It may be convenient if I go into some detail in explaining the functions and the powers which we propose to give to the new Board.
In considering the formation of this new Board, we naturally took account of the valuable experience gained under the two previous bodies set up earlier to supervise the iron and steel industry. First, there was the Import Duties Advisory Committee before the war and then the Iron and Steel Board set up by the late Government in 1946.
The views of the Import Duties Advisory Committee were set out in their report of 1937, from which I want to read one extract to the House. It is this:
"Not the least important of the developments which have taken place is the acceptance both by the industry and by public opinion of a general oversight of the policy of the industry by an independent body looking to the public interest in its widest sense…. It is, we think, desirable that the industry should be encouraged to continue to work out its own organisation and frame its own policy in co-operation with some body representative of the State so that there may be a full and fair trial of the possibility of combining individual responsibility and initiative on the one hand with co-ordinated action and full recognition of national interests on the other."
The Board set up by the Labour Government in 1946 was just the kind of organisation which had been envisaged by the Import Duties Advisory Committee. I think it is agreed on all sides that this Iron and Steel Board often known as the Forbes Board, was an outstanding success. Although it was brought to an untimely end by nationalisation, it survived long enough to demonstrate beyond all doubt that it was possible to combine effectively the

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advantages of private enterprise with the safeguards of public supervision.
Our plan is to carry forward this successful constitutional development from the point where it was interrupted by the party opposite. Ignoring the irrelevant interlude of nationalisation, we shall recreate an Iron and Steel Board, but this time we intend to make it a statutory body with statutory powers of its own.
One of the most important duties of the new Board will be in regard to development. Here there are two main problems. One is to ensure that necessary schemes of modernisation and expansion are carried through to meet the requirements of the consuming industries. The other is to prevent ill-conceived development schemes which would waste national resources on a large scale and would unbalance the structure of the industry.
Normally the Board will, I expect, exercise its influence upon the industry by discussion and persuasion, and I have no doubt that it will recognise the importance of carrying the opinion of the industry with it.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Will Herr Krupp be invited to join the new Board?
Mr. Sandys: I think I can leave that question to the hon. Member to answer. He is probably more familiar with the gentleman than I am.
Mr. Hughes: Your side is.
Mr. Sandys: As I have said, the Board will normally, I imagine, exercise its influence by persuasion and discussion. Nevertheless, we are providing in the Bill two statutory powers in regard to development—one of them negative and the other positive. On the negative side the Board will be empowered to require that major schemes of development shall be submitted to it, and will have the right to withhold its approval in the case of large schemes which in its opinion are likely seriously to prejudice the balanced development of the industry. Since we regard it as a serious thing to interfere with the right of companies to spend their own money in their own way and to take risks as they think right, we shall also provide a right of appeal to the
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Minister against the decision of the Board.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: These are obviously matters which must affect the whole community. Will the Board be in any way responsible to Parliament for its decisions?
Mr. Sandys: The Board will make an annual report to Parliament and will publish its accounts.
Mr. Silverman: The answer then, is "No."
Mr. Sandys: To that extent the Board's affairs will be subject to discussion by Parliament. In addition, the Minister will be provided with certain powers in the Bill, which are referred to in the White Paper, and, of course, he will be answerable to Parliament in respect of them. We have put in as few Government powers as possible, but nevertheless they cover a number of important spheres. There will be the necessary Parliamentary supervision at the points which matter most.
I have dealt with the negative side. I now come to the positive. It will be the duty of the Board to keep under regular review the production facilities and to ensure the provision of such additional or more up-to-date capacity as may be needed to meet the requirements of the metal-using industries and of our export trade. If, in the opinion of the Board as a result of its review, it comes to the conclusion that additional capacity and facilities are needed over and above what the industry is already planning, then the Board will ask the industry to provide it.
The question arises, of course, as to what can be done in the exceptional case—and I believe that it will be a very exceptional case—where a scheme proposed by the Board is regarded by the industry as being uneconomic and no firm can be found which is willing to undertake it.
Two alternative suggestions have been made. One is that a company should be compelled to undertake a scheme which the Board consider desirable. I think that the House will agree that it would be not only wrong but quite impractical to ask a company, using its shareholders' money, to carry out a

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scheme which it thinks is unsound. Nor would the company have any hope of raising new money for it.
The other suggestion was that the Board itself should have the right to set up works and to operate them.
Mr. Albu: At the taxpayer's expense.
Mr. Sandys: That is a suggestion which has been widely made. At first sight it has some attractions, but we felt obliged to reject it; for we felt that, if the Board itself were to start up in competition with other works, its position as an impartial arbiter over the whole industry in respect of prices and other matters would be greatly impaired. We therefore came to the conclusion that in a case of this kind it must be the Government who undertake the scheme and we are therefore providing that power in the Bill.
Mr. George Chetwynd: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is unfair for shareholders to take on an uneconomic venture but it is right for the taxpayer to take it?
Mr. Sandys: If the Government wish to undertake a scheme which is uneconomic, then it is up to the Government to pay for it. I personally do not believe that this kind of case will often occur. It certainly does not arise now. The Corporation has no obligation to carry out uneconomic schemes. It has, in fact, an obligation under the 1949 Act to make both ends meet. The Government are not now able to direct the Corporation to carry out schemes which they consider are going to run at a loss. We are not therefore introducing any very novel principle.
We are giving this power to the Government because we have to foresee all possible eventualities, however unlikely. But I do not believe that that power will often be needed or used, except in very rare cases where it is needed on strategic grounds. In that case it is quite right that the Government should bear the financial responsibility.
Mr. H. Morrison: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not think he has referred to paragraph 18 of Cmd. 8619. I wonder whether he would be good enough to explain how he interprets it. The paragraph states:
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"The Bill will provide that all producers of iron and steel shall be deemed to have entered into a contractual obligation with the Board to observe their decisions in relation to development and prices. The Board's decisions will thus be enforceable by civil proceedings for an injunction."
Is there a positive power or is it entirely negative? I read it at first sight as if it could be both positive and negative.
Mr. Sandys: I was going to say something about that later, but I will refer to it now if it suits the right hon. Gentleman. We are faced with the problem of how the Board is going to enforce its decisions in regard to prices and development. The question of raw materials is a slightly different problem, as the right hon. Gentleman realises.
There are two ways in which it could be done. One is through the process of criminal law and the other is through civil proceedings. Of course, the prices orders which are now issued by the Government are backed by the criminal law, but we did not feel that it was right to give a body which is not directly answerable to Parliament the power to create, by its decisions, what amount to criminal offences. Therefore, we decided that enforcement should be through civil proceedings.
The procedure which will be incorporated in the Bill is that every iron and steel company which comes within the purview of the Board will be deemed to have entered into a contractual obligation with the Board to abide by its decisions in regard to prices and development. I know that this business of "deeming" is a queer one. I believe that it was Lord Macmillan, a distinguished judge, who said that Acts of Parliament are constantly bidding us to deem something to be what it plainly is not.
I have no doubt that this will be another case, but it will certainly not be the first time that that procedure has been resorted to in legislation. I believe that the procedure of civil injunction will be effective and it will avoid invoking the criminal law.
Mr. Roy Jenkins: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to go back to something which he said a moment ago? He stated that he wanted to deal with any possible eventuality. There might be a difference of opinion as to what is an economic

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proposition and what is not. The Government may say something is economic and a company may say that it is not and refuse to do it. If the Government then undertake the proposition and it turns out in fact to be perfectly economical and makes a reasonable profit, what happens then? Do the Government continue to run it or is it then to be sold to private shareholders?
Mr. Sandys: That is a decision for the Government of the day to take. The question is whether the Government want to be permanently engaged in iron and steel. I cannot conceive that the Government would ever have to carry out a scheme of this kind unless it was not a commercial proposition. If the need for a particular undertaking ceased, then the Government would have to decide whether to close down the works or sell or go on manufacturing—there are already many Government factories, such as ordnance factories. I cannot say now exactly what decision would be taken in the circumstances envisaged by the hon. Gentleman.
The second major responsibility of the Board will be in regard to prices. Supervision may be necessary for two reasons. It may be necessary to prevent makers of iron and steel from charging excessive prices. On the other hand, it may be necessary to prevent speculators outside the industry in time of shortage buying steel and re-selling it on the black market. Those are quite separate and distinct problems. The task of curbing black market operations outside the industry has nothing to do with the iron and steel industry itself. It calls for Government action backed by the sanctions of the criminal law.
No doubt before long the House will have to consider what permanent powers are to be provided for dealing with racketeers of all kinds when the present emergency legislation comes to an end, but that is clearly outside the scope of an Iron and Steel Bill. In normal times the task of ensuring that iron and steel makers do not charge excessive prices is best undertaken, not by the Government, but by an independent body such as this new Board which includes both consumers and producers.
However, we also propose to give a reserve power to the Government to
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override the Board on prices if this is necessary in the national interest. Many may say that that is quite an unnecessary power and they might be right, but we feel nonetheless that, in view of the great importance of the iron and steel producing and consuming industries, it is right to provide this final safeguard.
A very important function of the Board, in addition to the supervision of prices and development, will be in regard to the supply of raw materials. One of the main problems in the years ahead clearly is going to be to buy from abroad sufficient raw materials, and in particular high-grade iron ore. Since the war the iron and steel industry has been buying its foreign ore through its own central buying organisation.
Mr. Jack Jones: In bulk.
Mr. Sandys: Yes. We on this side of the House have never objected to bulk buying. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] What we object to is State bulk buying, which is quite a different thing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] This system has worked smoothly and efficiently. I want to emphasise that nothing in our proposals set out in the White Paper will prevent the continuance of those arrangements should they be desirable.
The Board will, however, have the duty of keeping the supply of raw materials for the industry under review. If the industry should at any time fail to assure adequate supplies of raw materials, the Board will have the power to make other arrangements.
In this connection there is a point in the White Paper which seems to have given rise to some misunderstanding. I refer to the provision that imported materials may, with the consent of the Government, be re-sold below cost and the difference recovered by means of a levy charged on the iron and steel producers.
Mr. Jack Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to interrupt for one second?
Mr. Sandys: No, I am sorry; I have given way quite a lot. That, of course, is the present system. It has undoubtedly helped to maintain stable and relatively low prices for steel. Nevertheless, it possesses all the disadvantages of any system of price averaging in that it masks

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real costs and interferes with the healthy operation of normal economic forces. But it would be quite impossible to end that system overnight without very serious disturbance to both consumers and producers.
On the other hand, I am sure that that is the direction in which we must try to move. In fact, I took the first step the other day when I authorised an increase in the maximum price of pig iron so as to enable the price of imported ore to be raised to somewhere nearer its true cost. Since this enabled the industry to reduce the levy charged on the steel producers, the prices of steel did not have to be raised. In fact in some cases they were reduced.
I have spoken of the duties and powers of the Board. I come now to the question of the extent of the Board's sphere of responsibility. Our aim is to provide a system of public supervision which, by and large, will embrace the whole of the iron and steel industry and at the same time will not extend beyond it. As the right hon. Member for Vauxhall knows as well as I do, it is no easy matter to decide precisely where to draw the line as between the iron and steel industry, on the one hand, and the engineering industry, on the other.
I can assure the House that it was after much thought and many consultations that we compiled the list of processes set out in the appendix to the White Paper. This list comprises, in the main, basic processes of iron and steel production. The remainder have been included for two reasons, first to ensure their supplies of raw materials, and secondly, to make the supervision of the Board over the basic processes fully effective.
Before drawing up this list, I naturally consulted very thoroughly the principal organisations representing the sections of the industry concerned. I am glad to be able to say that, almost without exception, those included have expressed their approval.
I am, however, aware that there is a certain amount of uneasiness among certain sections of the founders, particularly the steel foundries and what are called the tied foundries which are linked with engineering works. I understand they are afraid that the Board will use its powers to interfere with the day-to-day running of their businesses. I honestly believe
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that their fears and anxieties are not justified. The foundries came under the supervision of the Iron and Steel Board in 1946 and, so far as I know, there was no friction then. I see no reason why there should be friction now.
As I have already explained, the Board will have powers relating to three specific subjects—development, prices and materials. As regards development, there is, of course, no question of every little foundry expansion scheme having to be submitted and argued out before the Board. The Board will only have power to control major schemes which are of such magnitude as to affect the balance of the industry and I believe that few, if any, foundry development schemes will come into that category. If any do, it is surely reasonable that they should be subject to scrutiny.
As regards prices, experience over the last 12 years has shown that most castings are not easily susceptible to detailed price control and I have no doubt that the Board will recognise that fact. On the other hand, there are certain types of castings, in particular the mass-produced products, where price control has been necessary in the past and might be necessary again. As for the tied foundries, the issue of price control is, of course, largely academic, since the bulk of their output passes directly into the engineering workshops of the same firms and is not sold outside.
There remains the question of materials. It is mainly because the founders use the same materials as the steel producers that they must be regarded as an inseparable part of the iron and steel industry. I think the House should bear in mind that the iron and steel founders together consume no less than 5½ million tons of pig iron and scrap a year. If they were left outside the scheme, the Board would have no direct responsibility for looking after their supplies of raw materials. I am sure, therefore, that, both in their own interest and in the general interest, the founders should be included in this scheme.
A year ago, when in this present Parliament we first debated this question, I stressed the importance which the Government attached to obtaining a lasting settlement of the steel problem. However the party opposite may vote tonight. I hope that they will be fair enough—

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and I am sure that they will—to recognise that we on this side of the House have made a sincere effort, not only to be constructive, but also to be conciliatory.
Mr. Jack Jones: What about finance?
Mr. Sandys: In July last when the White Paper was published, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) was good enough to say that the Government had offered an olive branch; and I think that the hon. Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo), in more flippant vein, said we had offered not just an olive branch, but a whole grove of olive trees.
Mr. Jones: What about the olives?
Mr. Sandys: The fact is that this White Paper and the proposals in it fully and faithfully implement the principles and policy which the Conservative Party enunciated in opposition, and which were set out in our Election Manifesto. On the other hand, the Labour Party can, I think, justly claim that our proposals contain a number of features which they may consider were in part inspired by the Board which they set up in 1946, and by the T.U.C. Report of 1950. If so, we on this side of the House have no desire to be petty-minded. We are quite prepared to share with hon. Members opposite the credit for the paternity of this fine child.
There is no scheme, however it may be devised, which will give complete satisfaction to everyone. But I sincerely believe that the proposals contained in the White Paper do offer a fair basis for a workable solution, and it is in that spirit that I commend them to the House.
4.43 p.m.
Mr. Herbert Morrison: We are all obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his exposition of the Government's case. We do not agree with it, but we thank him for his patience in explaining their point of view, and the patience with which he accepted certain—I hope not too rough—interventions from this side of the House. I should like to mention, because I think the House ought to know, that the right hon. Gentleman has made his speech under conditions of considerable physical pain. We are all very sorry about that, and I am sure that all of us on both sides of the House would
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express our sympathy to him in having to make a speech under those conditions, and the hope that he will soon be completely restored to absolute ease and comfort.
Mr. Sandys: Thank you very much.
Mr. Morrison: This Motion gave us cause for consideration. We came to the conclusion that, rather than put down what is often called a reasoned Amendment—and if we put it down the House may be sure of it being a reasoned Amendment—the better course would be that we should directly oppose the Motion. Therefore, we shall vote against it in the Division Lobbies.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to understand that he must not walk away with the idea that our opposition to this course of policy is half-baked or weak. It is full-blooded; it is strong, and he must expect the most vigorous and determined opposition to the Bill throughout its consideration by the House of Commons in due course; because we think this policy is bad, we think it is wrong.
The right hon. Gentleman did make a conciliatory offer at the end of his speech, to the effect that this White Paper was their child and the Bill would be their child, but that he was perfectly willing to share the paternity of it with the Opposition. Well, I have heard of bigamous marriages; I have heard of applications in the courts for affiliation orders; but I really think it is a little cool for a gentleman to produce a baby and then say, "Now you shall be the father." I do not think that that is a fair or a reasonable proposition. In any case, we refuse to take any responsibility whatever for the infant. While I will not go so far as did the Prime Minister himself about a Trade Union Bill produced by an earlier Labour Government, when he said, "Take the beastly thing upstairs and wring its neck"—I would not like to say that about any baby, not even the right hon. Gentleman's baby—nevertheless, we feel something of that kind of spirit about it.
The right hon. Gentleman said that nationalisation meant a persistent tightening of central control, and that that was the trouble. If I may say so, if ever there was a public ownership Measure which did not over-do central control it was the Iron and Steel Bill of my right

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hon. Friend. In fact, one of the charming things about the Labour Government was that all these nationalisation Bills with which I was personally much concerned as we went along, together with the Departmental Ministers, was that none of them were alike. They were all different, and their administrative structure and organisation was varied to meet each case according to the physical circumstances and requirements.
But when we came to iron and steel, the right hon. Gentleman is quite right, we spent a long time coming to a conclusion—and we did come to a conclusion in the end—as to what were the beginning and the end of the industry. Where does it begin; where does it end; what are the physical limitations upon it? It is a difficult thing to decide, and that is why all these matters are taken in, and what he has called extraneous industries or services, which we would not agree with, arose. In the case of this industry, therefore, we decided that the individual undertakings should remain individual undertakings, subject to the co-ordinating and supervising authority of the Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain; which in time might well have re-grouped and re-organised many of the undertakings. Indeed, I think that was an essential part of their work.
But it was to be gone about carefully, and therefore if ever there was a case where decentralisation was envisaged it is this. I warn the right hon. Gentleman that if he is not careful, under the policy which he is pursuing, he will get more bureaucratic centralisation and interference under this Board—and remember it is the Board plus Steel House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Plus the Agency."]—plus the Agency—[HON. MEMBERS: "Plus the Ministry."]—yes, plus the Ministry—I think that is about the lot—all of them floating about with powers of intervention of one sort or another. I warn the right hon. Gentleman with great sincerity that if he is not careful he will get a state of bureaucratic interference—checks, balances, starts and stops—which will be even worse than he has imagined is the case with the British Iron and Steel Corporation.
Therefore, the suggestion of tighter central control was untrue, but, even as to what the right hon. Gentleman calls the extraneous part of the industry which we took over, my right hon. Friend, in
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some cases, where he himself came to the clear conclusion that they were extraneous and unnecessary, made the decision which excluded them, and he left the power to the Corporation to hive off others where it was considered to be appropriate.
Merely saying something and quoting instances does not settle the matter. We may well disagree with the Government as to what should properly be left in and what should properly be hived off, but, with the elasticity of the scheme, the power to hive off was considered to be necessary. However, as we went along, the power was there, and in some cases, that power was exercised.
As to my right hon. Friend's so-called threat, he did not make it as a threat, and it was not as a personal threat. He made the "threat" responsibly on behalf of the Opposition, but it was not really a threat, and that is not a fair word to use. The right hon. Gentleman said what a pity it was that we had announced that we will re-nationalise the industry, but what a great pity it is that he announced the Government's intention to denationalise it—I think, for political and doctrinaire reasons.
I fully agree that the whole business is controversial from start to finish, whoever does anything. I understand that, but we at least did a constructive job, and the Government are doing a destructive job. It is a destructive job that will haunt them and any other Government for many years to cone, unless another Government comes in to put things right.
In these circumstances, it is not fair, as they are the major aggressors in this case—[Interruption.] Oh, yes, they are; they are undoing a constructive Act which was operating. If we merely restore the situation as it was, it is not fair to say that we are playing ducks and drakes with the industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Of course it is."] No, it is the Government who are playing ducks and drakes with the industry, and they had far better either have left it alone or applied their own constructive ideas, if there be any, in order to make nationalisation a success. That is what they ought to have done, but, as I shall show in due course, they are going to create a more chaotic situation.
As to what proof there was of the need for nationalisation, let me say that if the

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right hon. Gentleman will read the debates on Second Reading, Committee and Report stages, Third Reading and elsewhere, as well as in the country, I think he will really have to admit that there was a positive and constructive case made for the course recommended to Parliament by my right hon. Friend.
There is one other point to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, and to which I ought to pay a moment's attention. It is the old story about the Trades Union Congress finding itself in a position whereby the Government could say, "We are doing what the T.U.C. recommended us to do." I dealt with that at the time when I was Lord President, and I thought I completely demolished the argument.
The truth is that the Trades Union Congress, in one of a series of very valuable constructive reports on economic and industrial policy which it has produced for a number of years past, give illustrations as to the various forms of exercising public control. They gave the illustration of outright nationalisation, of which the T.U.C. has never been afraid; indeed, the last Congress went a little further than the General Council wanted them to do in that respect.
They said that there was outright nationalisation, and there was the exercise of economic planning powers and controls. They said, "There is this, that and the other, and many other expedients in practice, or there may be a case for setting up a board, as has been done in the case of the Iron and Steel Board." These were illustrations of alternative methods of enforcing public control and supervision. That was all, and they were illustrative, possible alternatives.
By the way, we did not disband the Iron and Steel Board exactly. There really was a strike on the part of important non-Labour members of that Board. Therefore, to assume that we disbanded it is not right.
The conclusive proof of the T.U.C. attitude is to be found in an introduction, which appeared in May, 1951, to a report called "Public Control of Industry." The General Council in its introduction, says:
"In political debate, passages in the report referring to the former Iron and Steel Board have been construed as meaning that the T.U.C. disapproves of the nationalisation of the iron and steel industry. This is, of course,
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not the case, for the Board was mentioned merely as an example of a form of control which could be exercised in appropriate cases in an industry. It was not suggested that its revival was appropriate in the iron and steel industry."
I hope, in these circumstances, that we shall never hear any more of the story that the T.U.C. is out of step with——
Mr. Peter Roberts: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me? I should like to ask him this question. Does he say that the T.U.C. has not repudiated the report they made, or that this was an alternative method of approach?
Mr. Morrison: I do not think the hon. Member could have been listening to me. They really had no need to repudiate the earlier report, I can assure him. What they did was to confirm my interpretation of the report and of what was intended by the General Council.
Mr. Spencer Summers: Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me to remind him that the statement from which he has quoted does make the matter quite plain, because the T.U.C. at that time used the words "deserves further consideration." That rather alters the implication which the right hon. Gentleman puts upon it.
Mr. Frederick Lee: Will my right hon. Friend also allow me to interrupt him? If he will look at the T.U.C. report for this year, page 249, he will see that, in the letter which was sent to the Minister by the T.U.C., they pointed out that the T.U.C. had for many years advocated the public ownership of the iron and steel industry, and had given full support to the Iron and Steel Act, 1949. They go on to regret wholeheartedly that this Government are to change it back to private enterprise.
Mr. Morrison: I think that, with the aid of my hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Lee), who functioned as expert witness, our case is completely made out on that point. Moreover, I am reminded that, in the 1950 report of the General Council to the Congress, they refer to the form of control by a statutory board of control, and, in this report, which may well be the one that is in mind, they said:
"This method has already been used by the Government, for a short period, in the iron

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and steel industry with the intention of securing a measure of control, pending the transfer of the industry to public ownership."
It is not a matter of terrible importance, but it is a pity that there should be a somewhat persistent effort to misrepresent the attitude of the T.U.C.
Hon. Members have had an opportunity of seeing the report of the Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain. It is the first annual report, and, therefore, it cannot necessarily take us very far. Moreover, it is something of a compromise report, for two reasons. One is that the Corporation had a change of chairman in the middle, in circumstances with which we are familiar. First was the chairman of a socialised industry who was trying to protect the consumer. Mr. Steven Hardie; and that did not meet with the approval of the Government. I rather like a chairman of a public corporation who tries to protect the consumer, because I am a good consumer's man. However, there was a change, and that made an interruption in the supervision of the Corporation.
Then, there was a change of Government, and a violent change of policy. Therefore, this report has obviously been written and approved by the Board, and signed by the new chairman, Sir John Green, in circumstances of some difficulty, as was bound to be the case. I think we can all agree that even though it is only the first annual report, and for a limited period, the result is encouraging.
The financial results are reasonably good. There is a profit, and let us not be ashamed that a public industry makes a profit. Unfortunately, there is sometimes a feeling of guilt if it does. I rather like it to do so, because the money is useful for future development, particularly in an industry of this sort. On the other hand, one does not want to encourage it to make excessive profits, because that can lead to shortages and excessive prices.
I think that in the circumstances of the case the results are good, and, moreover, production is pretty good. The industry has got on fairly well, and though we were told by the Minister of Supply that in his judgment nationalisation had not been a success, I say—and I say this with all reservation, because the period is short—that it has been a success. Even the
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Prime Minister in a recent speech stated—he did not say under nationalisation, but the fact is true—that home production was running at the rate of nearly 500,000 tons more than in 1951 and that output was expected to increase by an even greater amount next year.
When the financial result is good and growth in the output is reasonable, and when the process of transferring to public ownership has been achieved, it really is too bad that the Government should come along and upset the apple cart and make all these changes and difficulties. In the White Paper three main duties are imposed upon the Board—the first is development, the second, looking after raw materials, and the third, prices. As to development, one really wants to know what is going to happen.
It is no good the right hon. Gentleman saying that when we nationalised the industry it had a long record of great and useful public service. It had not. I admit there had been some improvements in recent times, but not enough. Indeed, at the beginning of the war our national security was imperilled by the fact that the output of British iron and steel was inadequate; it was not as much as it ought to have been, and not as much as it could have been.
It is the case that in the 30's—we all remember that period; Jarrow, South Wales, Sheffield, and other places remember it well—there was in the hearts and minds of the private owners of the steel industry a desperate feeling that if they went in for a policy of more production they would burn their fingers.
Consequently, it was definitely, and almost by public confession, a policy of go slow, of restrictive output, and it was not until the Government said to the industry, "If you want protective tariffs"—which is what it wanted in order to get easy protection—"you must shake yourselves up; if you do not shake yourselves up, we will take away the preferential tariffs." That was said by a Tory Government.
These were the circumstances of the iron and steel industry. If the right hon. Gentleman says, "Do not worry about that; it is quite a time ago," I would point out that it was not so long ago. It was at the beginning of the war that

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this industry was letting us down. I not only say that, but also that if this industry goes back to private ownership, to the quasi cartel and monopolistic control of Steel House, there can easily be once again a reversion to restrictive practices in the industry.
Mr. P. Roberts: We must be accurate about this. It is a fact that in 1938 there was a service capacity of 2 million tons above the demand.
Mr. Morrison: The hon. Gentleman and I can only disagree about it. I think the facts I have asserted are within the recollection of the House, and I warn the House that if we are not careful we shall return to that situation. Even under the somewhat improved efforts of the iron and steel industry during the war, when we pushed them along—I was Minister of Supply for a few months and we got a good bit of co-operation—the results not only of nationalisation, but the coming of nationalisation, had some beneficial consequence on the private industry.
I admit that there were some improvements, but, even so, the relative increase of production in the United States in recent years is substantially more than it is with us. The same is true of the Soviet Union, and Germany had to start absolutely from scratch at the end of the war, or near enough from scratch, and she has made a very substantial increase. While our iron and steel industry has improved its production, partly under private ownership and partly under public ownership, the fact is that it has not reached the rate of progress of the United States, of the U.S.S.R. and of Germany.
In view of the fact that iron and steel production is one of the essentials of our future prosperity for home requirements and a vital element in the engineering industry for our export trade, we really cannot be indifferent to the possibilities of slackness in production. How are the Government going to see that the right development takes place? I asked the right hon. Gentleman what was meant by a certain paragraph in the report.
It is the case that quite a number of people inside this industry, or in industries upon its fringes which are covered in the Appendix to the White Paper, are very alarmed at Paragraph 18. I am not entirely in sympathy with all their
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reasons for being alarmed, but it should be understood that a lot of these people have not been nationalised and have been left a substantial degree of freedom. They are now going to come under a high degee of control.
In this paragraph—and despite my encouragement the right hon. Gentleman did not explain it—it says:
"All producers of iron and steel shall be deemed to have entered into a contractual obligation with the Board to observe their decisions in relation to development and prices."
The right hon. Gentleman said that to give the Board more power to require the industry to spend more money and to incur additional capital liabilities would be unreasonable. But that paragraph either means that that is what is contemplated, or it does not.
I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman said, that it is not an easy matter for an external authority to require a private concern to spend money. It may be possible—and I do not exclude the possibilities—if, for example, a depression is coming—indeed, it may well be necessary—to require a public industry, and, as far as one can, a private industry, to spend money on capital expenditure, and so on, with a view to mitigating or avoiding the depression.
Mr. Sandys: I should like to clear up a misunderstanding here. Paragraph 18, which deals with the arrangements for enforcing the Board's decisions, obviously applies only to decisions in respect of which the Board have powers. As I explained in my remarks, the powers of the Board in regard to development, apart from their general duty of keeping the industry under review, is an executive power to prevent undesirable schemes from being pursued. Positive power, as I explained, is given to the Government, and, therefore, this process of enforcement does not apply to that.
Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. If I have misunderstood it—it was not an illegitimate misunderstanding—it was as a result of the wording of paragraph 18, which does not distinguish between positive and negative powers. We are now clear from what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
But where does that take us? It takes us to this point: that the Board's power

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of control and direction is a negative power. I quite agree that in the exercise of economic controls and so on there have got to be some negative powers and some negative directions, but I am bound to say that I do not like them. It is not a happy way of looking after industries to say, "Do not do that" and, "You must not do the other." I would sooner get on with the positive and say, "Come on, boys, let us pull together and build something up." I should not only say that to industry either, but that is by the way.
That is a negative power, as the right hon. Gentleman says. Therefore, to where has he degenerated? He has now got to the point that for the constructive efforts of public ownership he is substituting the negative, destructive bureaucratic powers of direction under the State. This is not what the Prime Minister said when he said, "Set the people free." He said, "Away with all this bureaucracy, away with all this bureaucratic interference." He made smearing references to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) is alleged once to have said. I forget just what it was, but it was something about the gentlemen of Whitehall knowing best. I do not know whether it was my right hon. Friend or somebody else, or even whether he said it, but that is what they say.
Having made all these speeches about "Set the people free" and against bureaucratic interference, and especially against negative bureaucratic interference—the "Thou shalt not" type of interference—the right hon. Gentleman now comes and says officially, "This is the power of negative control." That is nothing for a Tory to be proud of. I do not think it is anything for a Socialist to be proud of either. I would sooner get on with the positive and constructive field.
"But," says the right hon. Gentleman, "there is the reserve power to the Minister to be constructive." Now, what is that? It is that if in the circumstances of a particular undertaking he wants them to engage in development, progress and expansionist policy, and, therefore, they must have the money, if the industry is in private ownership—the right hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong—the Minister can, I gather, jump in and find the money and see that the development takes place. If the industry is still in the hands of the Agency—the disposal
1302
agency, a sort of body of receivers—the Agency can spend money upon it.
But where does that take us? It takes us precisely to where my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo) was indicating earlier: namely, that where there is money to be made, private capitalism shall make it, but where there is money to be risked and lost, John Bull is going to carry that burden. That seems to me to be an utter anti-social conspiracy, and I think that it is pretty shameful.
The basis of the Government's policy is a doubtful effort to extend control, coupled with de-nationalisation, and the extension of control, especially the negative control, is not in accordance with the principles that they have said they will stand for; neither is it in accordance with our principles. Moreover, it is liable to give us the worst of both worlds. It will not be easy to persuade firms to act and to accept financial responsibility, and, therefore, we get a situation which is very unsatisfactory from every possible point of view.
Paragraph 13 is an intriguing paragraph, for it would appear from it that there is power to the Board to restrain a company from putting forward a major scheme of development. Let us see what the paragraph says—this is on "Development":
"If a company should put forward a major scheme which in the opinion of the Board would seriously prejudice the efficient and economical development of the industry, the Board will have power to restrain that company from embarking upon such a scheme. Companies dissatisfied with the Board's decision will have the right of appeal to the Minister of Supply."
I can conceive that in certain circumstances a company might be going haywire and wanting, perhaps, to go too far—I do not know; but it is curious to find in this document that a separate paragraph is actually set out in order to stop a company from doing the big thing. The whole spirit of the White Paper is alarming in that respect.
The Paper seems to me to contemplate a whole series of difficulties, therefore, between the private undertakings in the industry and the bureaucratic machinery of the Board, whilst the Board is doing its best without real power to solve them. As I have said, private industry is not bound to do the job—in fact, the Minister

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has specifically told them so this afternoon—and if it does not do it, it is the Government, public money, possibly even the taxpayer, who has to come in and foot the Bill.
As these questions illustrate, in the whole field of development, physical changes in the industry and increased production, we know where we are under public ownership; we can have a deliberate policy, we can deliberately do things by the real planning of the industry; but under the White Paper policy, if it can be called a policy, we do not know what is going to happen in the future of the British iron and steel industry.
It is admitted—I think it is stated in the report; certainly it was stated in the development scheme that was put up to the Labour Government by the Iron and Steel Federation—that many millions of new money will have to be invested in the industry if it is to do the real job that we want of it. [An HON. MEMBER: "£300 million."] The right hon. Gentleman has not told us where that money is coming from. He has not indicated that it will come very easily from private investment. He has indicated that the State may have to put its hand in its pocket to put up this money, or part of it, for private industry. The White Paper ought not to leave us in doubt as to where this essential large sum of money is to come from in order that good development may take place in the industry.
Let us come to the policy of denationalisation. I submit that the Board will not be able to do an adequate job for the industry. Where would denationalisation take us? There is this holding and realisation agency. It sounds like a body of receivers calculated to produce a most unsatisfactory result. How can an industry be successfully run with a body of receivers in temporary nominal control of the whole series of undertakings, with a notice in the window, "Will somebody come and buy us out because we want to get rid of ourselves as quickly as possible"? One cannot run a successful business upon that basis.
I am arguing this to show that the process of nationalisation was a relatively smooth, constructive affair. This, however, is going to be a painful dragging out affair lasting over many years, as is ad-
1304
mitted in the White Paper. What therefore, is the picture of things which the White Paper holds out? It is the picture of an industry a part of which, possibly the profitable part, will be sold to private investors, who may be steel men—they are just as likely to be banks and insurance people, who know no more about steel than anybody else does.
We may get the de-nationalisation of iron and steel becoming the bankerisation of iron and steel. We might get that done and then have another series of undertakings which were not quite so profitable, with no willing buyers, which would be left in the hands of the disposing agencies—whom I call the receivers—and so, whereas we were getting a coherent industry under nationalisation we would be getting a deliberately divided industry which is all over the place and which has no real coherence about it.
This may go on for years, and whatever may be the theoretical arguments about public ownership for iron and steel, I submit that, as a practical matter, it having been done and the job being on the way, it is really most unwise deliberately to create this chaotic situation which is envisaged by the White Paper. In paragraph 32 the White Paper indicates that we may have to continue for many years a long drawn out policy of division and uncertainty instead of a clear decisive policy of progress as contemplated by the Iron and Steel Corporation.
I understand the Conservative objections in regard to nationalisation, although I do not agree with them; but this policy of destructive dislocation which is to last a long time is indefensible and contrary to the public interest. The more we study the White Paper the more we feel that the Government is leading Parliament to what we might call the graveyard of de-nationalisation. The right hon. Gentleman referred to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) said about our future policy as a Labour Party. My right hon. Friend made it clear earlier on that the next Labour Government will re-nationalise this basic industry. We shall take back into public ownership the units that we need and we shall not pay again for what has already been paid for by the previous process of nationalisation.
That can and will be called a threat by some people. It was not meant as a

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threat by my right hon. Friend and it is not said by me as a threat but, as I said on the transport debate, if we had said nothing about this everyone would have tended to assume that when we came back we should leave things as we found them—as they were left by this Government when it went out of office, and if we then proceeded to re-nationalise people would say: "It is not fair; it is a breach of faith. You should have told us what you were doing to do." They would have a particular grievance if we had in mind financial reservations as to compensation and did not indicate where we stood. Therefore, this is not a threat; it is an act of decency. We are doing the right thing.
Some people may disagree with us, but if we intend to do this it is right, it is decent, and it is proper that we should say so. Therefore I say again today what my right hon. Friend said and what we have said more than once that we intend to do about transport, and we shall pursue that policy not as an act of spite or vindictiveness but because we believe that it is a policy which the public interest requires us to pursue.
It is for these reasons that we are opposed to the policy set out in this White Paper, and it is for these reasons that we shall vote against the Motion when it is put from the Chair tonight.
5.25 p.m.
Mr. Spencer Summers: I am grateful for having been called now, because it puts an end to the self-control which I was doing my best to exercise to avoid challenging the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) on the persistent distortions of the position to which we have just listened.
I shall deal first with the last remarks he made in regard to threats. During the course of the speech of my right hon. Friend who opened this debate he drew attention to the latest words which have been recorded of the Opposition's views and their future course of action, and he noted that their decision whether or not to undo what is now proposed would be judged by what seemed to them to be in the national interest. The right hon. Gentleman has just told us that he is going to pay no attention to the experience of the new regime in steel, but that he has already made up his mind that some years hence he will take a certain
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sort of action in the public interest, irrespective of what has happened in the interval between.
If that is not calculated to make quite plain to all and sundry that it is not the welfare of the industry which his party have at heart but the lust for power, I do not know what is.
Mr. M. Follick: On a point of order. Is it not a tradition of this House that when an hon. Member has an interest in the subject about which he is speaking he is supposed to declare it?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I do not understand what the hon. Gentleman means. Would he explain it?
Mr. Follick: The hon. Gentleman who is now speaking has an interest in the steel industry, and he should declare that interest at the beginning of his speech
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not so. A Member may not vote on any question in which he has a direct financial interest, but there is no necessity to make any declaration about it.
Mr. Summers: The hon. Gentleman may wish to know that thanks to nationalisation I have no financial interest whatever in the industry. I think it is probable that the hon. Member who raised this point knows perfectly well what is the position. If I omitted anything I should have said I am sorry. Let us get on with what is more important.
The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South took it upon himself to issue a grave warning—I think those were his words—to the Minister, lest the proposals which he had in mind should lead to over-centralisation, quite contrary to the expectation that we heard from the initial speech. I would point out that the form of supervision of the industry which is now proposed—with a few additions, to which I shall refer in a moment—is not dissimilar to that which was established in 1946.
There was then no charge of over-centralisation. The only reason why we have not had over-centralisation in the last two years, under nationalisation, is because it has not got going on what it intended to do. It has barely lost its amateur status—and it is a very good thing for the industry that that is the

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position. The right hon. Gentleman then went on to enunciate a most remarkable doctrine. He has been in this House very much longer than I have, and I do not want to pursue this point at great length, because his experience might stand him in good stead, but to me it is quite unthinkable to argue that when there is a change of Government, because the new Government has a precisely opposite view from the previous one they should, for some constitutional reason, be debarred from putting that view into effect.
He charges us with the responsibility of putting the clock back and adopting a tit-for-tat attitude, but if he came back into power he would do that self-same thing. To me it is a perfectly proper prospect and, indeed, a duty of a new Government to put into practice those promises which they have made plain to the electorate.
Mr. Frederick Mulley: What my hon. Friends complain about is that when the party opposite change the status quo it is in the public interest but that when we do it it is revenge. If it is reasonable for a Conversative Government to change the status quo of the industry now, it is also reasonable for us to restore that status quo when we return to power.
Mr. Summers: There is no need to pursue this point at great length. It is obvious that the right hon. Gentleman was trying to take to himself some super right to which the next Government would be entitled and which he denies the present Government.
He went on to allude to the experience in the steel industry in the thirties as some reason why nationalising it was proper. He said that the Tory Government of that day had had to exercise a threat to the industry to put its house in order, and had said that if they did not do so the tariff would be reduced. I submit that that is a complete distortion of the fact. What happened was this. The industry appealed to the Government of the day against unreasonable competition from overseas, and the tariff was granted on condition that certain improvements were made, which is a very different thing from a threat.
To make the point quite clear, such threat as was made, such as a change of
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tariff, was made to our overseas competitors who were told that the tariff would be increased if they were unwilling to come in and make the arrangement which finally was made.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say what a shocking thing it was that there was not more steel available when the war broke out. He must know, as a member of the Cabinet of that day, that no Government orders throughout the war fell down for want of the proper delivery of steel. He must know, too, that it ill behoves the critic from an Opposition, which in those days did their level best to prevent re-armament, to complain that there were not enough steel resources.
He alluded to the contrast in the development of steel capacity in this country since the war with what has been happening in America. What he failed to make plain to the House was that in America arrangements had been made for new steel capacity to be paid off out of current profits before taxation over the space of five years—a prospect which is a very strong inducement indeed to go ahead with capital expenditure, which is not available in this country.
What he appears to have completely ignored is that the capacity for steel making in this country since the war has been the outcome of plans submitted to successive Governments, beginning with the end of the war-time Government and following with the Government that came into office in 1945, and the rate of the expansion of the steel industry is the direct responsibility of the Government that was in office until the autumn of last year. If hon. Members opposite do not think that that expansion has been large enough, they have only themselves to blame for the figures that they now criticise.
We heard comments during the preceding speeches from the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South and the hon. Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo) that by this policy which is inherent in the White Paper, in the event of the industry being unwilling to finance some projects thought necessary by the Board, it would be competent for the Minister to come in and do it. It has been represented that this proposal was intended to leave the cream of the industry to the private industry and to give

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the sour milk to the public sector. I do not think it has been appreciated how this element in the White Paper has come to be there, or perhaps it does not suit the Opposition to see it in this way.
Former proposals for supervising the industry were criticised by the Opposition on the grounds that the only form of supervision intended was a negative one. There might well be, in their view, instances where it was necessary in the public interest that certain things should be done, but because of the powers then in existence they could see no positive way by which they could be done, and we were unwilling to force a reluctant Board to do them. It was precisely to meet those criticisms of the lack of some positive weapon to get things done which the public interest required, and which it appeared would not otherwise be done that the power of the Minister so to act has been included in the Bill.
Mr. Mikardo: The hon. Gentleman is making what I think is a valid point so far as it goes, but he stopped short of the end of it. Is he really saying that if they wanted to do it they could not find some way in which the industry could be levied to cover an uneconomical enterprise just as industries are levied to cover uneconomic imports? Of course they could, and the fact that that is not being done invalidates the hon. Gentleman's point and makes it clear that the intention is for profitable development to go to the privately owned sector and for unprofitable development to be done out of the taxpayers' money.
Mr. Summers: The hon. Gentleman charges me with having stopped short. I merely stopped out of courtesy to give way to his intervention. What he has entirely overlooked is that if, in the view of the Government, there is need for some form of project to be developed which no one in the industry at the time is willing to do, it is almost certain that it is for some strategic reason. There is no reason why the remedy proposed by the hon. Gentleman to meet any commercial loss that might result should be carried merely by the consumers within the steel industry. If there is a strategic decision for such a measure, it is surely a measure the financial responsibility for which should ultimately fall on the whole nation. Therefore, in my view, it is quite proper
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that this instrument—which I do not believe will ever be used—should be in the hands of the Minister, and it is relevant that we should discuss it since it is in the White Paper.
Mr. A. Woodburn: I remember an interesting speech made by the hon. Gentleman when the matter was first discussed, in which he pointed out that the people would only buy the cream from this industry and the Government would be left with the skimmed milk on its hands. At that time, if my memory serves me right, he advocated that the industry would have to levy the cream sold by the Government to compensate for what was left on the Government's hands. I take it from what he is now saying that he has rather revised that view and he feels that the Government should accept the whole responsibility without charging the main industry.
Mr. Summers: The right hon. Gentleman is mixing two points which are perfectly valid for discussion. I am speaking of the power of the Minister to create new capacities which others are not willing to do. What was implicit in the right hon. Gentleman's point was: what is to be done with those plants for which, at any rate temporarily, it is not easy to find a buyer. Those are two completely distinct points which have no direct bearing with one another.
I shall deal shortly with the point that has just been raised, but meantime I want to point out how unreasonable it is to represent the position to be created now as almost a swindle, when it is the outcome of criticism from those self same benches opposite that there was no positive power in the hands of the Minister. I think the right hon. Gentleman was referring to the speech I made on this subject on 12th November last year. I have taken the precaution of having a copy of it with me. It makes gratifying reading now in the light of what has happened.
Mr. Jack Jones: What did the hon. Gentleman say?
Mr. Summers: The hon. Gentleman can read it. Among other things, I said that there were certain cases where, in my view, it would be unreasonable for the Corporation, which will now be the

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agency, to sell back plant to the private sector if they knew quite well that the plant would never operate or should never operate because it had no useful life. I am still of that opinion, and let me say in passing that if the Corporation set up by the late Government had done its job properly, the problem of redundant plant would be much less acute than it is at the present time.
The position is that there will be some plants which ought not to be sold back but which ought to be scrapped, and I suggest that the proper way in which that problem should be dealt with is for those who continue in the industry to pay a levy to compensate the Agency for any loss which they might otherwise sustain by not selling these plants and receiving only the cash and the value of the scrap. But that has no bearing on the previous point I made.
In conclusion—for I know that others wish to speak in the debate—I think neither the right hon. Gentleman nor the hon. Gentleman did themselves justice. In particular, the right hon. Gentleman did not do justice to his talents, which we have seen displayed before, when he sought to justify the view which he expressed on behalf of his party merely by repeating the word "construction" six or seven times in relation to nationalisation. He went on to speak of a coherent industry which would follow from nationalisation, but he knows quite well that the outcome of nationalisation was to split the industry clean in half and that the constructive outcome of the White Paper policy, in contrast to that of nationalisation, is, far from having a dividing effect, to have a uniting effect, with control covering the whole gamut of the industry and from which, I am quite certain, the national interest will derive the greatest benefit.
5.42 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Mulley: We have heard a great deal from the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) and the Minister about the accelerated desire on their part to take advice from this side of the House, and I think we can sum up our advice, which is both constructive and negative, by saying, "Why do you not drop the whole project to denationalise the industry?" That is con-
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structive from the nation's point of view, and it is negative from the point of view of the harm which it would prevent the Government from doing to the industry.
In the time available, I cannot, of course, comment on the whole of the Minister's speech, but I do not wish to be discourteous when I say that he gave more away in an aside than he did in his detailed exposition of the case for denationalisation. When he said, "It is not bulk purchase which we are against, but State bulk purchase," I understood perfectly what was in his mind in presenting this White Paper to the House because, quite frankly, this is not an issue between private enterprise and nationalisation. Control of some sort, or supervision, which is only the same word looked at from the opposite angle, is agreed between us. All we on this side of the House are worried about is whether the control proposed in the White Paper will be effective.
The Minister spent a long time in talking, on the one hand, about the independence and initiative which this proposal would leave to the private companies in the steel industry, and then, on the other hand, he went on to talk about the reality and façade of nationalisation. Before he considers using words like initiative and independence in the same speech as that which contains an exposition of control, I suggest that he should ask himself about the realities and the façade of the supervision which he is proposing to impose upon the industry; because, quite clearly, we cannot have a satisfactory system of supervision and control and, at the same time, have all the independence and initiative and all the rest of the clap trap which he pretends private enterprise gives us.
The issue is really a simple one: it is the issue of ownership. In a previous debate—and I do not intend to repeat my previous speech—I said—and "The Times" did me the honour of quoting it in a leading article—that the real issue in this matter is the matter of ownership; and that is confirmed by the White Paper.
We say that if the industry is to be controlled, it can be effectively controlled in the national interest only if the ownership is in public hands. There is nothing very surprising about that, because it is exactly how private industry and the

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steel companies themselves have operated. When they wished to control a subsidiary, when they wished to make sure of the sources of their raw material and they bought a coal mine, they saw to it that they had 51 per cent., or a controlling ownership, of the industry. They were not prepared to have boards which were not backed by financial control.
Quite clearly, all the arguments between now and next Christmas will not disguise the fact that the issue in this controversy of iron and steel is, who shall get the profits from this very profitable industry? Hon. Members need not simply take my word for the fact that free competition will not emerge if an Act is based upon this White Paper. "The Economist" of 2nd August said of the White Paper:
"Whether it promises truly competitive private enterprise in the steel industry is distinctly doubtful."
When the Minister first addressed the House on iron and steel, we made allowances for his lack of knowledge of the industry, as he had only recently taken office. On that occasion he talked a lot about free enterprise, but today in his speech he sought to make a virtue of the small point which he was putting forward and talked about the desirability of these proposals in that the industry could come before the Monopolies Commission. But at the present rate of progress it would take the Monopolies Commission 50 years to look into the monopolies which already need to be investigated.
It is admitted on both sides that the steel industry will have to be quasi-monopolistic in order to be efficient. The issue is whether it shall be a public and responsible monopoly or whether it shall be a private monopoly calculated to turn over to private interest the profit from it.
We have also heard about the need for public money. I will not go into the controversy of the Clauses of the White Paper, but clearly no one envisages that the industry will be able to develop at the rate necessary to our economic requirements without public money being spent to assist in its development. Is that public money likely to go into the industry and, either immediately or in the future, produce private profit? No business man will put money into the industry unless he thinks that he has some control
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over the profits which the investment may bring, but the British taxpayer is apparently expected so to do, and, of course, Conservative Governments in the inter-war period frequently made gifts or investments from public funds to private industry.
Hon. Members opposite ought to consider this vital question: what help or hindrance will these proposals contribute to our economic situation? It is admitted on both sides that at the present time the over-riding problem is our economic solvency, and I think that any proposal of an economic nature which is put to the House ought to have some relevance to our main economic problems.
Those problems are, if I may summarise them, first of all the need to meet our balance of payments difficulties and to promote exports; secondly, the need—which again is making up a deficit of consideration in the past—to re-equip our industry, and the control of investment, which is also linked with the problem of employment; and thirdly, the problem of defence. All these three objectives which we need in a national economic policy throw a terrific burden on the iron and steel and engineering industries. How are these proposals going to help those industries to play the part which the workers in them want the industries to play?
It has been said that nationalisation is not relevant to our economic problems, and it would be out of order for me to discuss the general question, but clearly the nationalisation of iron and steel is very relevant today. Already a great deal of harm has been done to the industry by the threat of denationalisation and the actual prohibition on the part of the Minister of the regrouping and development that the Corporation would otherwise have done.
There is a big difference between the threat of nationalisation and the threat or promise of denationalisation, because the threat of nationalisation had the effect of keeping the industry on its toes, so that it could present a very good case when its hearing was called, but the nationalised Corporation under sentence of death has no power whatever to do anything about it, because the Minister in this case stops the nationalised undertaking from doing the job it was set up to do, and at a time when the nation

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is facing a very serious economic situation, I say that is very foolish.
Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member said I have prevented some action by the Corporation. What I did was to issue a direction saying that I wished certain matters to be referred to me for my approval, which is quite a different thing, and I gave, in an earlier debate, a complete analysis of such matters as had been referred to me, and explained which ones they were. I think there were only two, as far as I can remember speaking from memory, where I did not give my consent, and they were quite minor points.
Mr. Mulley: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but I think he will agree that no nationalised undertaking, knowing it has got to get the Minister's consent for development or regrouping schemes, will go to the trouble of preparing those schemes and putting them before the Minister knowing that if the action makes it more difficult to denationalise the industry he will not agree. No one will waste his time or the Minister's in preparing schemes he knows in advance will not be accepted.
Mr. Sandys: I should not like to pass uncorrected for a moment the suggestion that I have been stopping development. There has been no interference at all on my part. On the contrary, I have been urging that an increase should be made.
Mr. Mulley: I also spoke of regrouping, which is also important from the efficiency angle. However, I do not want to take up too much time on that point. I think the Minister will allow that it is not stimulating to an industry to have to wait for the White Paper proposals for a year, and still another year before an Act of Parliament can be passed to decide what is to be done.
There is another point, that the country, despite the good production record of the industry, is still short of steel. It is not the fault of the steel workers, of course, that we are short of steel. They are not responsible for the lack of modernisation in the industry after the war, nor for the fact that the private steel companies decided wrongly, and in contrast to the steel industry in other European countries, to base their programmes after the war on German scrap.
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The proposals we have in the White Paper are not going to give us an extra ton of steel.
Mr. Summers: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to correct an impression which I think must be very misleading that may arise from what he says? The major cause of reduced output last year was lack of iron ore, brought about by having to divert shipping to take care of the coal crisis.
Mr. Mulley: I cannot go into a complete discussion of the coal industry as well as of the steel industry, for that would be out of order, but I say categorically that the proposals in the White Paper will not produce an extra ton of steel, but they may well jeopardise the production of the extra steel that we need, and certainly I think that for a Government who appeal for unity, a Government who talk about economic crises, to concentrate their efforts on the financial arrangements—and that is what all this debate and the White Paper are about: the financial arrangements—of an industry is a very serious indication of their lack of capacity to govern the country.
What the Government should be doing—and I was glad to hear from the Minister that it is his view of the matter—is this—it should be concentrating on maximum output, and I cannot be persuaded that this White Paper is going to produce any extra output in the foreseeable future. I would remind the Minister who talks about the "long run" that Lord Keynes said that in the long run we are all dead. By the time these complicated financial arrangements have been gone through, even if—which I challenge—they produce a greater output, the country may be in a very serious economic situation.
I know that the Government are not particularly anxious to pay attention to the views of the workers in an industry. They like to quote the T.U.C. when they think they can pick out a little paragraph and twist it to their advantage. But I can tell them, because I represent one of the Sheffield constituencies, there is grave concern among the workers about the arrangements proposed in the White Paper. I can tell the Minister that the workers of Sheffield are very satisfied with the experience they have had of the

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nationalised industry, and have no desire whatever to go back to the previous system.
I do think, as my right hon. Friend said, that to bring these proposals forward at this time is a doctrinaire method for private party ends, and has no relation whatever to the national economic situation or to the needs of the country, and I would appeal to the Minister—the Prime Minister is not here—to withdraw this scheme. There is plenty of time between now and the Queen's Speech for the necessary alterations to be made. After all, it will not be the first time, nor, I suspect, the last, that this Government have changed their minds, and on this occasion, if they change their minds, they can be assured that we on this side of the House will realise that they are at last interested not only in their own but in the nation's interests.
5.57 p.m.
Mr. R. Jennings: I am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for the Park Division (Mr. Mulley), as I also represent one of the Sheffield divisions. I remember that in the great city of Sheffield we made big efforts in the war. I was sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not take the opportunity to pay a compliment to Sheffield for its great efforts during the war. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) did indicate that there was some lack of effort at the beginning of the war. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I can assure hon. Members that had it not been for Sheffield's steel industry we should have been very badly off in the war.
Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: My right hon. Friend said no such thing. What he did say was that there was not enough steel at the beginning of the war. An hon. Member opposite was saying that there was surplus capacity—in other words, more steel could have been produced.
Mr. Jennings: The implication of what the right hon. Gentleman said was that there was some suspicion on the industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not at all."] It was not fair. He indicated that, at any rate, to ordinary thinking people—that there was something of a critical nature, something to be criticised, with regard to the steel industry at the beginning of the war. My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) did go so far as to
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say that lack of steel had no bad effect on the war because the steel industry did a magnificent job in the war. I think he was perfectly right.
There are two things that I should like to say, and we can speak quite openly and frankly with regard to them. When the White Paper first came out there was some criticism and some apprehension as to the scope of the proposed Bill and of what parts of the industry were to come within the scope of the Bill. There was a good deal of that criticism in Sheffield. The Minister reassured the House that there was no need for any apprehension, and that the Iron and Steel Board had no intention of interfering with the day-to-day carrying on of the various parts of the industry.
What I should like to impress upon the Minister is that the new Board should have the greatest possible flexibility and be able to give advice and help to the various sides of the industry governed under the new Board. I am led to make that statement by a criticism I read of Government control in the "Sheffield Telegraph" of 17th October, 1952, in which the export sales manager of John Bedford and Sons Ltd., of Sheffield, a Mr. Watt, said in a letter—I am only giving this as an instance, although it has no direct reference to the Iron and Steel Board as it is—that the allocation of the steel quotas had had the effect of cutting down exports to the South American countries, in this particular case to 6 per cent. of what it was, and asked for a freer and greater flexibility operating between the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Supply so that the greatest possible use of the steel allocations could be made and sent to countries where we shall get the greatest possible value from them.
We on this side of the House fully agree with the Minister in carrying out the de-nationalisation of this industry. In spite of what was said by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park, there has been a great deal of enthusiasm in Sheffield for the carrying out of this policy, and I can assure him that any opposition he may have found has been purposely fanned for political purposes.
Mr. Mulley: Could the hon. Gentleman tell me where I can find this enthusiasm among the workers in Sheffield for these

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proposals? I should be very glad to know it.
Mr. Jennings: If the hon. Gentleman will write to me I will make an appointment to meet him in Sheffield and take him to see people who are glad that the Government are carrying out their promise, and doing everything that is right and proper and in the best interests of the country and of the iron and steel industry.
I was glad to hear the Minister say that the Board would control this industry and the various sides of it by persuasion and discussion. That, I think, is the right attitude, I commend him for taking that view. I feel that in the best interests of the country we shall get a unified iron and steel industry if we get a flexible Board, a Board determined to help every side of the industry. I am certain that this is in the national interest, and that we are doing the right thing.
6.4 p.m.
Mr. Donald Wade: I should have been happier if we had been discussing a Bill rather than a White Paper. It is 12 months since the announcement was made that legislation would be introduced, and those 12 months have added to the suspense from which the industry has been suffering. I hope that when the proposed Bill is introduced, there will not be very much further delay. If this is to be done it is better that we should get on with the job.
In the main, I and my colleagues are in favour of supporting the White Paper, although there are some aspects on which we should like further clarification. I suppose it is inevitable that the attitude of hon. Members to this White Paper should reflect their views on nationalisation. Those who believe in nationalisation for its own sake will naturally be opposed to the proposals in the White Paper.
Mr. Woodburn: The hon. Gentleman has just made a very important declaration for his party, that they are going to support the White Paper. Did not his party formerly make a very solemn declaration that once nationalisation had taken place they would regard it as a complete act and would not be in favour
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of disturbing the industry by reversing the process?
Mr. Wade: I have here the statement made in January. I shall not trouble the House by reading out the statement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it."] The statement made in January of this year?
Mr. Mikardo: At the time the Bill was going through.
Mr. Wade: I remember the occasion to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I appreciate the point he is making. It was in the last Parliament. A statement was made, and I had something to do with drawing up that statement. So far as that Parliament was concerned, we felt that there had been enough time spent on debating this subject. The statement only applied to the duration of that Parliament.
Mr. Percy Collick: Oh, no. Let us have the statement.
Mr. Wade: I have not got that statement here, but I recollect it. I should be only too pleased to get the statement in due course. I did take some part in drawing it up and I am certain that it related to the duration of that particular Parliament. We felt there had been a sufficient number of debates during that Parliament. It is well within my recollection.
Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas: Does the hon. Gentleman really suggest that the Liberal Party were making a futile declaration that for the duration of that Parliament, in which there was a Labour majority which had carried the Measure, they would be so good as to desist from having the Measure rescinded? Is the Liberal Party reduced to that kind of thing?
Mr. Wade: I do not want to take up a long time debating this point. The subject had been raised on a number of occasions by the Opposition and we felt, rightly or wrongly, that on that occasion, having debated it again, we had debated it enough during that Parliament. That was the point and the whole point. Then in January of this year a statement was issued putting forward our views, which we hold quite sincerely, although Labour Members may not agree with us. In many respects the White Paper we are

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debating today follows the statement issued in January of this year.
Mr. Collick: How long does that last?
Mr. Wade: I appreciate that the attitude to the White Paper depends to a large extent on hon. Members' views on the whole issue of nationalisation. When the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) opened for the Opposition, he made the statement that he and his colleagues would vote against this Motion. I think it would have been better if that statement had been made at the end of the debate, for it would at any rate have created the appearance that the arguments in a debate have some effect on the decision that is taken at the end of the debate.
Personally, I hold the view—and I have always held that view—that State ownership should be limited, and that so far as possible commercial responsibility and risk bearing should be left to individual privately-owned firms. But I agree that that reason alone is not sufficient to justify supporting the White Paper. There are other considerations. As I have just said, some of the proposals in the White Paper follow the statement made by the party to which I belong in January of this year, and there are other points in favour of it. The over-riding national interest is recognised in the setting up of the supervising Board. By setting up this Board, the Government have avoided the error of combining ownership with general over-all supervision, and I think that that is a point in its favour.
There is also to be an end of the artificial distinction between the nationalised and non-nationalised sectors of the industry, which at present constitutes such a serious anachronism. The Board will exercise supervision over the whole output of particular products within a definite range. I think that is an improvement, although I have some doubts about the inclusion of certain processes, for instance, iron casting. I can think of hundreds of iron foundries in the West Riding of Yorkshire alone where some concern is likely to be felt as to the extent of the interference there may be by the new Board.
The need for large-scale development is recognised, and provision is made for the possibility of one firm not being able to
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raise sufficient capital on its own to embark on such development, and also there is provision for developments which in the early stages may not be commercially profitable. With reference to this, there is one question that I should like to ask. Supposing, for purely political reasons, it is thought desirable to start some new concern in an area which is not economically suitable, will the Board attempt to keep up prices all round in order that one concern set up in an uneconomic situation shall make a profit?
Continuing with the items on the favourable side of the balance sheet, all sectors of the industry will, as the Minister has pointed out, be brought within the purview of the Monopolies Commission. I should like to make a few observations on that point later. Finally provision is made for the promotion of research, for training and for the publication of statistics. For all these reasons, I think that the White Paper should be supported, but when all has been said that can be said in its favour, there are still many questions left unanswered, and many gaps which have not been filled, even after the admirable opening speech by the Minister of Supply.
I often feel that when a debate takes place on a White Paper, it would be helpful if a completely unorthodox procedure were followed, and if, beforehand, the Minister held a sort of Press conference at which Members of Parliament were present instead of representatives of the Press, and we had a couple of hours in which to shoot questions at him. We might then be in a position at the beginning of the formal debate of being better informed as to what is the Minister's intention, and perhaps more enlightened than we are merely by reading the White Paper. I realise, of course, that there is not much chance of that unorthodox procedure being followed.
There are some questions which I should like to put to the Minister, and I hope that there may be time for some of them to be answered. Can we have a clear definition of the general objective and the kind of conditions that are envisaged for this industry? Is the intention merely to return to pre-war conditions—because personally I do not feel entirely happy about the conditions which existed before the war.

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I see that in the introduction to the White Paper reference is made to the reorganisation of the iron and steel industry under free enterprise. The Minister did not use the expression "free enterprise"; he referred to enterprise and initiative. I cannot find any further reference in the White Paper to free enterprise. Is it the intention that the Board should encourage free enterprise, and does that mean competition in prices? One does not often find a Board encouraging a competitive state of affairs. The effect of a Board's activities is generally otherwise.
I should like to know what are to be the functions of this Board and what are the underlying objectives. I think that this is important for many reasons. It has a bearing on our relationship with the Schuman Community. I have the Schuman Treaty here, and so far as the aims and objects are set out, it is clear that it is intended that there should be a large measure of competition. I do not propose to weary the House by reading the first five articles of that Treaty. I do not know whether they are to be upheld in the future, but I hope that they will be. It is clear that it is hoped that discriminatory practices should be avoided, and that the Schuman Community should ensure the maintenance and observance of normal conditions of competition, and that direct action to interfere should only be taken in an emergency. Is it the intention of the Board to adopt a similar policy in this country? If it is, I think that this may have some important bearing on the development of the Schuman Community.
There is a reference in paragraph 13 to restraint. How is restraint to be exercised on companies embarking upon new schemes? Reference has been made to that, but I think we might have some more enlightenment on that question. It may prove to be a very dangerous proposal and become a precedent for the kind of restrictive practices which the Monopoly Commission is intended to prevent.
So far as additional works are concerned, referred to in paragraph 14, it would be of help to know, supposing the Minister set up some new companies, whether, in due course, he will sell them to private enterprise, or will they be permanently carried on under public
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ownership. Will new entrants be encouraged? In the Liberal statement there is reference to the need for the encouragement of new entrants into the industry. Will the Board encourage new entrants and discourage practices designed to stop new concerns being set up?
There are so many questions arising out of this White Paper that I must apologise for taking up so much time. Then, again, in regard to joint consultation, surely the wording of Clause 9 is somewhat vague:
"The Board will have the general duty of supervising the industry … in particular to keep under review … arrangements for joint consultation between management and employees on matters of mutual interest …"
Surely there is now a golden opportunity for embarking on some radical experiments in the sharing of ownership, profits and responsibility. Even if we do not accept the view that conditions should be imposed on the selling of shares to private enterprise, even if we do not accept that view, the Board could do a great deal by bringing both sides of the industry together and working out general principles of co-partnership, and trying to get the whole industry to accept new schemes based on those principles.
I should like to know a little more about the levy. I understand that it is tending to get out of hand. Will there be in the Bill any limit imposed, and will there be powers for the Minister or the Board to restrict the extent to which this levy may be imposed on the industry.
Lastly, with reference to monopolistic practices, what will be the relationship between the Monopolies Commission and the new Board? I do not think that point has been cleared up by the Minister. Supposing evidence is brought before the Monopolies Commission to show that there are restrictive practices, and the President of the Board of Trade feels that there is a case for intervention, and supposing the new Board goes to the Ministry of Supply and says, "We are getting on very nicely; we do not want to be interfered with; please will you stop him from intervening?" Who is going to win, the President of the Board of Trade or the Ministry of Supply?
Mr. Mikardo: That answer is self-evident. The present Government have taken no action at all on any of the

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reports they have received from the Monopolies Commission.
Mr. Wade: I have already expressed my own views in debates on previous occasions about the need for reform in the case of the Monopolies Commission, and I hope that there soon will be some reform.
To sum up, surely it is most important that the Bill should define as clearly as possible the powers of the Board and the powers of the Minister, for two reasons. One is because, as a nation, we should know where we are going, and the second is in order that prospective investors in this industry should know the conditions that are going to prevail and the extent to which firms will be interfered with by the Board, so that they will know the chances of success of a venture in which they are going to invest their money.
The White Paper appears to have been accepted with comparative calm in the country. This arouses in me mixed feelings of concern on the one hand and hope on the other. I am concerned lest this comparative calm implies that the desire to safeguard the interests of the industry will over-ride the need for looking after the consumer. On the other hand, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South and other Opposition hon. Members have said, I hope that the state of uncertainty and the period of political controversy will be brought to an end.
I agree wholeheartedly with the statement of Mr. Lincoln Evans, who said:
"What is deplorable is that an industry so vital to our national economy is expected to conduct its day-to-day operations, provide capital to plan its future development and seek markets for its products in all parts of the world in a highly charged atmosphere of bitter political controversy."
Whatever may be one's views on the merits or demerits of nationalisation, surely we all agree that this prolonged controversy is harmful to the industry. I sincerely hope that the controversy will be brought to an end and that when the final legislation is put on the Statute Book those affected by it, both employers and employees, will be allowed to get on with their task of developing this vitally important industry.
6.22 p.m.
Mr. J. E. S. Simon: I am very pleased to be able to follow the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade), because I represent an iron and steel-making division with a very great Liberal tradition; and at the last General Election but one the Liberal candidate pledged himself and took his stand firmly against steel nationalisation. I believe that very many of the Liberals who voted for him then voted for me at the last General Election.
Therefore, it must be quite untrue to say that the steel workers themselves, at any rate in a division like mine, were opposed to steel denationalisation. It was a prominent issue in the General Election; and, as the hon. Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Mulley) very finely said in a previous debate, there is in any case no need to make iron and steel an issue, because it is the very livelihood of the workers in our constituencies.
There has been much debate today on the subject of whether we should preserve the status quo. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) said, "Whatever we may think about nationalisation, it is done now, but let us preserve the status quo." That has always been the plea of anyone who has disturbed the status quo. It is what is said by any aggressor. An aggressor says: "Now that I have succeeded, let us shake on it. Do not disturb the peace. Accept what has happened."
There is one over-riding reason why we should, and are entitled to, de-nationalise in some measure, as we propose to do; and that is that at the General Elections of 1950 and 1951 a majority of the voters of this country supported parties which were opposed to the nationalisation of iron and steel and said so in their manifestos. We are under a duty to take some measures to implement the pledges which we then gave—I certainly gave them—to the electorate.
We are also under a further duty, which was referred to by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West, and that is to introduce a Measure which will, as far as we can secure it, bring peace into this great industry. I am certainly not entitled to speak for the workers of the iron and steel industry in the same way

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as are hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House who have given a lifetime to the service of the industry. But in the short time that I have been associated with Middlesbrough, I have observed a characteristic, which I cannot help noticing in hon. Members who represent the workers in the industry, and that is that they have the sort of qualities which have built up this great industry.
They are very fine qualities which are developed partly by the nature of their work; it is arduous work, but I should imagine that it is intensely satisfactory in achievement. We owe it to them to introduce a scheme which as far as possible exemplifies neither the extremes of nationalisation nor the extremes of uncontrolled private enterprise. It is because the scheme in the White Paper largely fulfils that condition that I give it my wholehearted support.
Reference has been made to the iron and steel industry having elements of monopoly. That is true. Surely there are all kinds of degrees of competition. It all depends how many one can group together in competing units and on the size of the units. When we build up our big industries as they tend to be built up these days, it is into large units, which are necessary for a great many reasons of technical efficiency; and we mitigate the competitive element and introduce an element of monopoly. However, it is unreasonable to proceed from that to argue that because one has an element of monopoly one should, therefore, introduce a complete monopoly.
There are two more reasonable ways of dealing with the situation. The first is to break up the monopoly; and the second is to introduce such a measure of control, and only such a measure of control, as is necessary to mitigate the evils which are inherent in any monopoly. Because the White Paper does that, too. I give it my support.
That brings me to the question of the control of prices. It is by control of prices that the supervisory Board can really do its best to control monopoly and to promote competition. The price policy operated in the past has to a large extent militated against the small iron and steel companies; and it is by regulating the prices that the supervisory
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Board can do a great deal to promote competition in the industry. I hope the Minister will consider specifically writing into the legislation the duty on the part of the Board to promote competition and to mitigate monopoly.
I see no reason why the Board itself should not be able to perform the functions which at the moment, I gather, it is intended to give to the Monopolies Commission, which is a large and, to some extent, unwieldy body. The Board will be in a better position to carry out those functions and will have a greater amount of material at its disposal.
Finally, I plead that whatever position we may have today, however closely we may examine the Bill, when it is introduced and passed into law we shall leave this great industry, supervised as we propose that it should be in the public interest, to work out its destiny in peace.
6.30 p.m.
Mr. Jack Jones: I do not propose to follow the hon. and learned Member for Middlesbrough, West (Mr. Simon) too closely, but I should like to state that if he thinks the steel workers of Middlesbrough are for de-nationalisation, then he and I can have a public debate on the matter, and when as a result of the vote one of us loses, then the loser should resign his seat in Parliament.
I have examined this White Paper very carefully and I have listened to the Minister today. May I say from the back benches on the Opposition side that we wish him well in his illness. I thought he was suffering from something other than a physical disability today, the disability of having to make a bad case look plausible and acceptable to the House and the country.
I should like to ask him a straight question. Which of the two recent statements is the correct one? Is it the one made by the Prime Minister at Scarborough that the industry had been saved from disaster in the nick of time by the return of the Tory Party, or the one the Minister made 48 hours previously at Troestre, South Wales, when he said that we were now producing more steel than ever in the history of this country and we hoped to do even better next year? They cannot have it both ways, and I

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suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he and the Prime Minister, to whom he is related, should get together and decide who is right.
Having looked at this White Paper, it seems to me that the main objective is, first, to skim off the cream. Do not let us make any bones about it. The new Welsh Corporation is apparently to be the first to come under the hammer, then probably the great United Steel Corporation to be followed possibly by the Summers set-up and the Lancashire Steel Corporation. By that time the sharks would be fairly well satisfied. I understand that the industry to be bought out would represent something like £240 million. That is somewhere about the figure paid for it by the public of this country. I understand there are blueprints for development of the industry to the nature of £250 million to £300 million.
We are anxious to learn where this money is to come from to buy the industry out. Who is going to buy out the industry that the Government took over? I happen to be a shareholder in things like the Prudential, so that my wife will be able to give a decent husband a decent burial when the time comes. It appears to me that in the final analysis the pennies of the poor will be used to buy out this industry for the purpose of private profit.
Mr. Chetwynd: Prudentialisation.
Mr. Jones: That is a good term, but I cannot use it as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd).
Under the proposals the cream will come off the industry, and then we come to the part of the industry not too easy to sell but which it might be possible to sell. Next comes the part which the Government claim is efficient, but which everyone knows is inefficient and will be difficult to sell at all. That will remain with the realisation Agency for and on behalf of the public. Finally, we are going to have the new plants for which private enterprise cannot or will not find the money, and the Minister of Supply will have to work this himself. This means that there will be four sections of the industry; firstly, the cream to be skimmed off; secondly, the part which may be difficult to sell but possibly will
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be sold; thirdly, the part that cannot be sold; and, fourthly, the new portion that will have to be set up for and on behalf of the Ministry. These four will be competing with each other for raw materials, and so on. Who will get priority of supply?
The present Corporation has done a good job of work. When the present Government were in opposition and the nationalisation proposals were put forward, they said that there would be chaos, disruption, lack of production and all the rest of it in the industry if it were nationalised. There has been nothing of the sort. There has been a healthy decent uprising in production, and a continuance of the good relationships between the employers and the employees. The directors in the main are satisfied. I admit that a few have been removed, but they should have been removed long ago. These guinea-pig people were replaced in the main by young, efficient persons. In my own constituency I know of young, efficient fellows who were brought up in the industry and knew it, and they have been advanced to directorships in place of these guinea-pig people who were eliminated.
The Minister in his speech today failed to point out anything in any shape or form which suggests that there has been lack of production or where in the activities of the Corporation the public interest has suffered. The whole thing boils down to pounds, shillings and pence. The Government are prepared to supervise and do everything but share the swag. They intend to hand back the most lucrative parts of the steel industry to private enterprise at a time when this nation can least afford private profit to be made out of it at the expense of the public.
I want to ask the Minister another question, and I hope that a reply will be given to it by whoever winds up this debate. A sum of £34½ million has been made available for the benefit of the Industry. Would this sum have been available if private enterprise had the disposal of it? The reason I put that question is that in essence the difference between nationalisation and private enterprise is just the difference between what the stockholders are getting in interest as against what they hope to get if and when the industry returns to private enterprise.

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This is a grave problem. I want to state here and now where the steel worker stands. I have heard till I am sick of what Mr. So-and-so said. Let us face the fact that Mr. So-and-so, who may be the official of some trade union, may not put forward the views of the executive council of the trade union. Twelve months last November the executive of my trade union had a two-day debate on the de-nationalisation proposals. We were presented with a two-page document full of reasons, collected from North, South, East and West; possibly from Steel House and Shell Mex House, urging that we ought to give this thing more consideration. It was torn to shreds paragraph by paragraph and the result was that a unanimous decision was come to by the executive of my trade union to have nothing to do with it. That unanimous decision was reaffirmed not many weeks ago when the White Paper was published.
We stand where we stood in 1932—no supervision of the industry in the interests of private shareholders, but public ownership and control in the interests of the nation at large. The Minister talked today for a long time about the provision of raw materials. He said a lot about ore from abroad, but he did not say anything about the provision of coal for the industry, though he mentioned coke. One of the most remarkable things about this White Paper and about the Tory Party is that here nationalisation is being denounced and at the same time the Government are paying lip-service to the one industry which has been nationalised the longest, the coal industry. What is wrong with giving to the steel workers what has been so good for the miners of this land?
The steel industry will depend primarily upon the nationalised coal industry. It is with the coal of this country that we will buy the ore from Sweden, Spain, Chile, North Africa and all the rest. The Minister knows it. It is a remarkable phenomenon of politics. We have the denunciation of steel but not a word about coal. Why? Because the Government know that the suggestion to return that industry to private enterprise would be the death of the survival of this country. Our economic survival would be jeopardised.
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I do not want to take up unduly the time of the House, but I submit that under the Steel Corporation things have gone very well indeed. There have been difficulties, but there have been great developments. The Minister knows nothing at all about steel production, but I want to help him all I can. The workers in this industry are patriots and democrats. They will not, do as certain members of the Steel Corporation did, walk out. They will not go on strike. They will subscribe to the law of the land and they will work in the interests of the nation, knowing that subsequently the industry will go back to where it belongs.
Steelworkers believe
"The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof."
That does not mean the Lords who sit in another place. I am talking in a spiritual sense. We intend that the raw material of this country—the iron ore, limestone, coal, fluor spar, and the refractories, all of which the Almighty gave to the nation for the benefit of the nation shall be used for the nation's benefit.
The Corporation did a good job. They went ahead with research, education and development. They did a great big job with only half a Corporation. I want to say one word to my own Front Bench. When we do get back to power, do not let us have any messing about with what sort of Corporations we set up. Do not let us leave vacancies for those people who do not want to play ball. Set up a corporation of people who are determined, in the interests of this country, that the geological wealth of the nation shall be used for the nation's benefit.
One word more about what is going to happen. We shall have a period of transition, and probably a period of attrition. The circumstances of this nation are such that we cannot afford to lose one ingot-ton of steel. Subsequent speakers may say that the price of steel has gone up since nationalisation. It has, and who was the prime cause of its going up? The Prime Minister. He went to America and bought steel of a type that I do not want to talk about. As a steel maker I should be ashamed to think that I had produced some of it. He bought it at a very high price. We could have used our copper and aluminium to buy the raw materials. We had the men in this country who could have produced

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the steel. The result was that up went the price of British steel by something like £2 14s. per ton. The first thing he did when he became Prime Minister was that he went abroad and made the purchase which I have described.
The Government will be wise to drop these suggestions, which can do no good but only irreparable harm. I hope and trust that, as a result of the debate, the Government will think twice, think wisely and think well about this proposal. They should not take it upstairs and cut its dirty throat but consign it to the flames—where I used to work—and burn this damned thing overnight.
6.44 p.m.
Mr. Robson Brown: It is always a pleasure for me to follow the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) because if there is anyone in this House who has a personal right to speak for steel, it is he. I listened with the greatest pleasure to the vigour and the force of his argument, but I felt that the speech was not in line with some of his previous speeches, because it had not got a basis on which to attack this particular White Paper. All hon. Members on the Opposition side have found themselves presented with a comprehensive, well-thought-out and well-planned White Paper—[Interruption.] Oh, yes—dealing seriously on a long-term basis with one of our greatest industries.
Mr. Mikardo: It is a pigs' breakfast.
Mr. Brown: I appreciate the personal difficulty and dilemma of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) and I thought that in the circumstances he made a very dignified and charming speech. The truth was that he could find no real grounds for honest criticism of the steel proposals. He drew a great number of red herrings across the path, and I propose in the time at my disposal to deal with some of them.
The first was his allegation that before the war the steel industry was not making itself efficient or keeping up-to-date. Clear evidence is there, and it has been repeated many times. In the five years just previous to the war the industry spent no less than £30 million on modernisation. Expressed in money of present value, that sum is of the order of £100 million, spent on new development. I must say that the industry had very
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little encouragement from the Socialist Government of the day.
One other claim which was made, and will be repeatedly made from the Floor of this House by the Opposition and in the country, is that the new works which have come into operation and the steady increase of output are due to the influence and operation of the new Steel Corporation, which has only existed for a short time. Nobody who knows anything about the matter——
Mr. Jack Jones: I did not say that.
Mr. Brown: The hon. Member for Rotherham did not claim that, and I give him credit for it, but it was claimed by his own Front Bench. Some of the new plants were projected as long ago as five or six years, and they have only now come into operation.
The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South and others made the suggestion, and it came even from the hon. Member for Rotherham, that the Conservative Government, the men on these benches and the party in the country, would deal dishonourably with the financing and the disposal of these undertakings. I give them all the lie positively and direct. They and the country will find that we shall dispose of these assets in a way that wilt be beyond criticism. There are men on this side of the House who will pledge their word that that will be done. There will be no skimming of the cream. There will be no leaving behind the dregs. The assets will be disposed of intelligently, wisely and fairly.
Another point concerns paragraph 13 of the White Paper, which was referred to by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South, regarding powers to prevent a particular company from erecting works or taking up development in a particular situation or part of the country. Those powers are born of necessity out of the experience of the past. We in this House know that, for social and economic reasons, persuasion, and in some cases pressure, have been brought to bear on companies in the steel industry, as in other industries, not to put particular plants or extensions of plant at certain places. That is good, and it is desirable that it should continue.
I have listened to all the steel debates in this House for many years, and I think

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the country is getting somewhat tired of steel debates. On this side of the House we are determined to put such Measures before the country that nobody will ever seek to disturb them again. The people know that this is a good industry, that it is efficient, that its prices are competitive with any in the world, even with high-cost raw materials, and that its quality is second to none.
I have to make these assertions because they lead to one other. People have been impressed with the rising steel record but have not always known what lay behind it. I want to pay a tribute, as did the hon. and learned Member for Middlesbrough, West (Mr. Simon) and the hon. Member for Rotherham, to the workers in the industry in this long and difficult period. There has been high quality of leadership between men and management in the industry.
What the country probably does not know—and I conceive it my duty to tell people tonight—is that the greatest hidden damage has been caused to the industry by six years of political disputation. Plans for vital plant extensions and for new plant and machinery, and for the carrying out of urgent modernisation have been unnecessarily delayed as a result, and that procedure has been unnecessarily protracted and complicated. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] I say that if this industry had not had that political interference during the last five or six years, and had not been compelled to look over its shoulder all the time to see what was happening in Parliament and what Parliament would decide in the next few months——
Mr. Mikardo: What rubbish.
Mr. Brown: I suppose the hon. Member is speaking from a profound knowledge of the steel industry? I say that if the industry had been allowed to develop normally in the past six years, we should have had another two million tons of steel a year.
Mr. Mikardo: Who stopped it?
Mr. Brown: The interference of the Socialist Government for six years.
Mr. Albu: What was the figure put forward by the Iron and Steel Federation as the proposed output for the steel industry?
Mr. Brown: The Federation has always put forward figures higher than those of the Government of the day and has always beaten every target set by the Government. I am talking about the productivity plans projected three or four or five years ago which only now could swing into operation if we had that two million tons of steel at this time for the canning of food, for the erection of new factories or homes, for new ships, for every branch of engineering and, in particular, for the export trade. What golden opportunities have been lost because of unsatisfactory dates of delivery or the inability to deliver at all. It is impossible to estimate accurately what has been the effect of all this upon the economy of the country——
Mr. Mikardo: Why not leave it alone then?
Mr. Brown: No responsible person would deny that it has been nothing less than calamitous. The only people who have come out of this with any credit has been the top management of the industry and the responsible trade union leaders. Management and men have grimly carried on with absolute efficiency, with absolute loyalty, the day-to-day production in spite of uncertainty and frustration. For those reasons, we have brought forward this White Paper to foreshadow an iron and steel Bill which will put an end to this uncertainty and frustration.
Mr. Mikardo: How can hon. Members opposite decide?
Mr. Brown: The answer is that we are the Government of the day. In addition to overcoming the ordinary handicaps, I want to pay credit to the industry for the way in which during the last 12 months it has been able to solve the scrap shortage position which otherwise would have seriously reduced the total overall production of the country. It demonstrates more clearly than ever the capable and good hands in which the industry is placed.
The hon. Member for Rotherham paid tribute to the fact that, in spite of political interference, the good relations of the industry have continued. Yet there are many in this House who would have wished it the other way, who would have liked to see the same unrest and bitter-

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ness in the steel trade as we found at one time in the coal trade. My opinion, from personal observation, is that neither management nor men will do anything to interfere with the decisions of this House. They did not do it on the other occasion and they will not do it now. De-nationalisation will not cause a ripple in the industry, for the men and the management put their loyalty to the trade and to the community before that of any political party.
Much has been said during this debate about the nationalised Steel Corporation. In the short period it was in office, it did the very things that many of us were so frightened it would do. It spent most of its time not in considering short or long-term plans for the development of the industry, but ways and means by which it could get concentration of power into the hands of one man—inexperienced hands at that. In another 12 months it would have turned the industry upside down.
We in the industry know perfectly well that there were already plans before it for the wholesale breaking up of the individual character of the historic companies, which the industry had understood would remain under the Act, and the setting up instead of bulky, unworkable regional organisations. The industry is to be united again and an end is to be put to the foolish, impossible position where the trade has been part bound and part free. We want to give real freedom to everybody.
So much for the position up to the present. With the publication of the White Paper, the public and this House want to know what the Convervative Government propose to do. When we had the last debate on steel, I was amazed at the threat that whatever we planned would be cancelled out, and this before we had revealed a single word or line of our intentions. The presumption was that we would bring forward a retaliatory, reactionary piece of party legislation. In other words it was anticipated that our proposals would be Socialist in character. The fact is that this White Paper, and the Bill which we intend to bring forward, is a good, sound, realistic facing up to all the facts of the case. It will take steel out of politics
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and, more important still, it will take politicians out of steel.
Anybody examining the White Paper with an unprejudiced mind will readily accept that we propose not the denationalisation of the industry, a negative act which I would not support, but the rationalisation of the industry, which is much more important. When we come to consider the Bill line by line, I believe it will be the judgment of politicial commentators and historians that it will be one of the finest industrial Measures ever introduced on the Floor of this House.
Mr. Coldrick: That is going some way.
Mr. Brown: It will carry it some way because it has to be carried some way. We have to make absolutely sure that what we do is in step with public opinion and that this industry shall be answerable to Parliament in a way that it has never been in the past. We shall give extensive and positive powers to the new Board. We shall set up a steel Board with teeth that can bite if necessary. We are drawing on 20 years' experience of some form of control or other in the steel industry, a thing which some of our Socialist friends conveniently forget.
The proposals have been accepted by the leaders of the industry. Further, in spite of the challenges that have been made, they are in general line with the proposals made by the T.U.C.
Mr. Mikardo: That is a lie.
Mr. Brown: That may be the opinion of the hon. Member. He can argue it out with the T.U.C.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member used that expression, he ought to withdraw it.
Mr. Mikardo: Certainly, Sir. Earlier in the debate a point was made that the T.U.C. had decided certain things. My hon. Friend for Newton (Mr. Lee) produced a T.U.C. report—I think while you were out of the Chamber for a short while, Sir—and read what the T.U.C. had said. In the light of that, it was universally agreed in the House that the matter had ended. The hon. Gentleman now chooses to repeat a totally false statement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I cannot

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say that what he is saying is true. If it is not true, then it must be untrue.
Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members on both sides of the House frequently have differences of opinion with each other, but the assumption on which we conduct these debates is that hon. Members believe that what they are saying is true. It is quite contrary to Parliamentary practice to accuse another hon. Gentleman of telling a lie, which is a different thing altogether. The hon. Member must withdraw it.
Mr. Mikardo: Certainly, Sir. I withdraw having said it is a lie. It is just totally untrue.
Mr. Brown: I accept the apology in the spirit in which it has been given. It happens to coincide with my next observation, namely, that only people who are blinded by party prejudice and opposition could see any of the evils which have been suggested across the Floor of the House in regard to this White Paper.
I believe that it is a White Paper of a form and kind that could be well applied to our other basic industries, because it preserves the right balance between individual enterprise, which must be encouraged if we are to survive, and central responsibility and collective accountability by the industry to the nation, which has to be recognised and accepted by all industries. It is my earnest hope that the Bill will not be long delayed and that the new Board, which will be composed of competent men, will be quickly set up and that the industry can quickly swing forward into action with confidence and catch up with the long years of delay.
How serious this lag has been is clearly demonstrated when I give the following figures, which I draw to the attention of the whole House. Between 1937 and 1951, production in the U.S.A. went up from 50 million tons to approximately 100 million tons. That figure has often been quoted in the House, but what is much more alarming and intimidating is that during the year 1949–50 production in the U.S.A. rose from 69.62 million to 86.36 million tons, a no less increase in that one year than 16 million tons, which is equivalent to the total output of our own country. No one can deny how startling these figures must be.
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One of my hon. Friends has made it perfectly clear that one of the reasons for this increase in America was the tax attitude of the United States Government. I do not propose to take up the time of the House on that, but there will have certainly to be adjustments in our own ideas. How many of us received a shock the other day when we read of the fact that German steel production has now reached a point where its output is passing our own. Every nation is striving to increase its steel output, because this is the steel age, and the world production of steel has risen from 133 million tons in 1937 to an estimated figure of no less than 223 million tons in 1953. In the light of all this, our own figures are not as good as I should like to see them.
The startling thing is that Russia of all places, which is not often quoted in relation to steel production, has increased its production from 17,500,000 tons in 1937 to an anticipated 34 million tons of steel in 1953. We have got to reach a point in the House when we must put away party issues and face the problem and the future of this great industry of ours in the national interests and in the national way.
During the same period, production in this country went up only from 13 million to 16 million tons, a 3 million tons increase. We valued it, we welcomed it, we were proud of it, but when it is related to world figures it does not look to be quite so important.
It is the delays that have been occasioned in the erection of new plants and, even more desperately now, in taking our fair share of the raw materials of the world that are to blame. We can build all the steel plants that we like and make them as modern as ever we wish, but without access to the raw materials we should have poured our money down the drain. It is the question of access to raw materials which disturbs me very much. Every day there is keener competition in the world for steel, and competition in the battle for raw materials is duplicating itself in the same way.
It is disturbing to think that the exports of steel from this country, instead of going up, fell last year from 1,423,000 tons to 1,271,000 tons, at the very time when everybody in the country desired that exports should go up. The reason was

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very obvious because we were not able to fill the steel gap.
As far as the long-term basis is concerned, there is another thing that must be said in the debate tonight. In some quarters there is a tendency and a feeling that we should for financial reasons review the development and the expansion of industry in general, and a feeling that perhaps there is an optimum figure related to continental production and that we ought to mark time. I do not share that view at all. We have got either to expand or to get out. As we put down the equipment and if we find that the demand is there, well and good. If we find that the demand has decreased, there is quite a lot of second-rate and out-worn machinery that could be put out of operation. I have not the slightest fear in saying——
Mr. Albu: Did not the hon. Member say at the beginning of his speech that the steel industry always had a target far ahead of the Government and far ahead of what most people thought was necessary? Is he not now saying exactly the opposite, that opinion in the steel industry is extremely conservative on the prospects of the industry?
Mr. Brown: I am not suggesting anything of the sort. It is a matter of comparison. Some people think of a figure of 18 million tons. I should like to see the figure 20 million tons during the next period, and then to be reviewed again.
Mr. Summers: Is my hon. Friend not aware that the figure of 20 million tons is already, so far as I am aware, an agreed figure to which the present capacity should be expanded?
Mr. Brown: Yes, that is a new target which has just been brought out in the last few months. I would not want any dispute with hon. Members on my own side. I am saying that there is that feeling in some circles and I repeat it. This is not the view of the steel trade.
Here is another interesting figure. When considering the consumption of steel, we find that in the U.S.A. the consumption per head of the population is approximately 1,250 lb. In our own country it is only 630 lb., which amply illustrates the reason for the increase in the demand for steel.
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The first of two further points that I wish to make is in regard to the Schuman Plan. More than once I have warned the House about the Schuman Plan and its implications. I have suggested that we should get closer to it in the early stages before it got too rigid, to find out what was happening and to give them the benefit of our advice. On the other hand, I am also alarmed by the still increasing productivity in the U.S.A. These are complicated matters, which require the urgent attention of the new Board, because sooner or later there will be suggestions that we should relate the production rate of British steel to that of other countries and that we should limit our expansion. That is part of the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers). The same argument applies to the access to raw materials. I want to see us in a position to state our position as quickly as ever we can.
One further question arises out of the Schuman Plan. It would be naive to imagine that we could send committees or observers to sit in at their deliberations without sooner or later finding ourselves in some way involved in a manner that we may not desire. While the general ideas behind the Schuman Plan are good, their too rigid constitution is not suitable for us in this country. In my opinion, a high steel export policy is an absolute necessity for Great Britain—and that may not agree with the Schuman ideas. We cannot permit Continental interference with the domestic affairs of the steel industry of this country, because there is a tremendous amount of development to be done.
Finally, I should like to make one or two observations regarding the financial terms. Throughout the debate there has been emphasis from the Opposition that we were going to de-nationalise and finance the industry in a dishonest fashion. I think I have given that the lie direct, and I give it again, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, when winding up at the end of the evening, will be just as categorical and emphatic on this.
I know that the Government are determined to carry out this Measure on a clean, honest and straightforward basis, and desire that it shall be beyond criticism by any reasonable person. In other words, we wish it to be a first-class

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Conservative Measure. The country will judge us by our actions and will decide our political future by our behaviour. I do not believe that there is any objection at all in having a measure of State money and private money in the industry, certainly for the period, with no excessive profits for either.
I hope that when the articles of association of the various companies are drawn up, they will be drawn up in agreement with the Minister and will have certain clauses in them which will protect the interests of the working men within the industry, and that they will also incorporate some of the elements of our own Workers' Charter and also give those inside the industry some opportunity of taking a financial interest.
We shall be in office for the full five years and we shall go to the country confident that the Bill, as outlined in the White Paper, will give the industry the stability and security which it deserves. I believe that when the time comes, the Opposition will think twice of putting in their election manifesto the blank cheque threat which they uttered that they would re-nationalise irrespective of what happened. That was a threat and a party manoeuvre before the Opposition had even seen the Bill and before they were able to judge how it would work.
Nationalisation of steel, so I am told, was put forward as a down payment to the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) to stay in the Government of that day. I hope that a re-nationalisation threat is not going to be another down payment to get him back again. My final word to the Opposition is that if they introduce the threat to re-nationalise the industry in any election manifesto, that in itself would cancel their opportunities of being returned to power.
7.10 p.m.
Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: I was rather amused when I heard the hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Robson Brown) inveighing against the Steel Corporation because it was about to reorganise certain companies, and also because it was using the names of old historic companies. I can remember how in the debate on what eventually became the Iron and Steel Act we on this side were accused almost of fraud because we took those
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old historic names, kept them, and used them to do the business of the Corporation.
Mr. Robson Brown: I think the hon. and learned Member has misunderstood me. What I said was that they were going to destroy the historic names of the great companies by wholesale regionalising of whole areas in different parts of the country.
Mr. Mallalieu: I certainly accept the correction the hon. Member has made, but surely there is nothing sacrosanct about the name of a company. All sorts of mergers habitually take place, and very often parts of the names of old companies are incorporated in the name of the new company. Who is to say that that will not happen here? The hon. Member waxed very eloquent about the catastrophic effects which, in his estimation, have followed from political interference with the steel industry. Political interference with any industry is likely to have some sort of ill effect, but the hon. Member did not give any evidence for the statements he made.
Mr. Jack Jones: Fairy tales.
Mr. Mallalieu: Who is interfering with the industry now? I am glad to see the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) back in his place. He was suggesting that it was perfectly proper procedure for any Government just to reverse the action of its predecessor. I submit that that is very improper. I do not suggest that there is any statute against it, but is is definitely contrary to the custom of our constitution that that sort of thing should take place. If this White Paper had been introduced by a party which had never had any responsibility in office and introduced in a country where democracy was a very young and tender plant, it would have been regrettable almost to the point of tragedy, but at least it would not have been unforeseeable.
Mr. Raymond Gower: Would the hon. and learned Member agree that responsible hon. Members from his side of the House have actually said in the country that, should the Government denationalise the industry, their party would re-nationalise it without the payment of compensation, which is not merely contrary to the constitution of this country,

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as he has suggested, but, I believe, contrary to the constitution of the Labour Party?
Mr. Mallalieu: It is not by any means necessary for me to go into the question, because a statement has been made in this House this evening, which is within the recollection of hon. Members, a perfectly proper statement, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). That this White Paper should have been introduced in this Mother of Parliaments, with all its history, and by the party which in all probability is the one which has the longest experience of office in the world, shows a wanton disregard for tradition. It shows a complete partisanship such as we have never seen before. I think it also shows a lack of faith in the future of this country, which is utterly deplorable in men who claim to understand and to follow the interests of our country as a whole.
Nobody who has any connection with the steel industry, even if it be a completely outside connection like that I have the honour to have, can fail to have observed with what pride those who are engaged in this industry regard it. They have pride, as has been said in this debate, to a certain extent in the conditions in many of the plants in the industry, pride in the output both in quantity and quality, pride in the unions and pride, in the absence of industrial disputes and, let it be said in all fairness, in some of the managements. I do not want to over-sentimentalise what is thought by some people whom I represent in Scunthorpe. We know that most people are in the industry because they earn their daily bread in it, and that is a proper reason for being in an industry.
I agree most wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) when he said that, no matter whether the industry is nationalised or de-nationalised, it will certainly have the hard work of those engaged in it, of all the men in the industry, to just the same degree. But, if it is denationalised, those men will know that, whereas under nationalisation they were working for the good of the country as a whole, now there will be a suspicion in their minds that they are working for the private profit of a small section.
Mr. Summers: Does not the hon. and learned Member realise that it is perfect nonsense to say that men are actuated, in whether they work or not, by the question of what person or persons are to get the fruits of their labours in a political sense, but that they work for the good of their families?
Mr. Mallalieu: I was just making that point myself. I was saying that they were there because of the money they were earning, and that is a perfectly proper feeling. What I am now adding is that henceforth, if this industry is de-nationalised, the men who are working in it will have in mind that a large part of the object for which they are working is the private interests of a section. I think that is a very undesirable state of affairs.
Mr. P. Roberts: Does the hon. and learned Member relate that also to the farming community, and is he going to talk about nationalising the land on the same principle?
Mr. Mallalieu: No, the hon. and learned Member is not talking of nationalising the land, nor has he ever done so, nor does that question seem to have anything to do with the matter. What I say is that, in order to satisfy their doctrinal considerations, the Conservative Party are quite prepared to sacrifice these excellent and nationally valuable feelings which undoubtedly exist in the steel industry. They are, by the presentation of this White Paper, making the first move in what may become a game of political shuttlecock by reversing an entirely justifiable and entirely mandated piece of Labour legislation.
If it does happen that this industry becomes a political shuttlecock, the responsibility will lie very heavily indeed on the shoulders of the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends who have introduced this White Paper. As has been said this afternoon, it is not even as though the nationalised industry had been a failure. On the contrary, it has been an extremely successful venture doing quite as well as, if not better than, the industry which existed before. The only difference, of course, is that there has not been quite so much ballyhoo in the capitalist Press about the records which have been made.

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Although the Corporation has been in power only a very few months it has, in fact, made considerable developments, continued developments which were begun before, and made savings in expenditure. It has heaps of plans for continuing the organisation and development which, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman said earlier, he is in effect stopping by the mere fact that now permission has to be obtained and it is known that many such permissions will not be given if they are in certain directions of which he disapproves. I think they have been receptive of new ideas. In a small way I have personal experience of ways in which the Corporation has welcomed suggestions from men working in the steel industry and acted upon them in an entirely democratic and nationally useful way.
Now we have the dead hand of the right hon. Gentleman clasping this industry clammily, if a little unsteadily. And I suppose we shall have the Prime Minister, who not very long since talked about "tired Tims and weary Willies," eulogising the men in the hope of winning them over to his scheme of handing them over to some of his more wealthy friends. So really this plan which has been put forward can be riddled for its absurdities. I think it is rotten with jobbery and replete with impracticability. All these things can be said of it with perfect truth.
But, of course, it may well take some years to complete. In other words, the Government have not the slightest chance of bringing it to a completion; and the only thing which they have a chance to do is to create further disturbance and uncertainty in this extremely valuable industry. That part of the industry which is not bought over—of course some of it will be bought—but that part which is not bought by the privateers will face a somewhat uneasy future waiting for execution until such time as the back bench hordes of the Conservative Party—if there are any hordes of it by that time—have clamoured to end the period of Treasury management and control; for that is quite plainly the control which is to operate.
There will be this Board set up to supervise the industry; a harking back, as it seems to me, to the rather ill-fated attempt to supervise the steel industry
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which was inaugurated by the Chamberlain and the Baldwin Government—the Baldwin Government first, of course. They took that new and blushing bride, the Import Duties Advisory Committee and put it into bed with the steel magnates to see what could be produced in the way of sheltered profits, monopoly and the exploitation of the consumer; with disastrous results, as many of us think, for the country as a whole.
Now, of course, there is an effort to show that there is something a little new, and the Government are saying that the whole industry is being put under supervision, as distinct from only part of it as under nationalisation. That may be true, but we want to see what this supervision is. And is there any doubt in the minds of any of us that that supervision, in effect, will be purely negative? There is much paraphernalia, court proceedings and all that, which I do not think will ever have to be used; for the simple reason that if there were any kind of major development proposed I doubt whether the steel magnates of the time could produce sufficient funds, even with their great wealth. Steel development takes enormous money, and I doubt whether they could produce sufficient funds for any substantial development with which the Government was in disagreement.
As for the positive side, about which we have heard quite a lot from the right hon. Gentleman, the only thing one can say about it is that it is positively amusing. The Minister of Supply is to provide and operate works—State control with a vengeance. What has happened to this private enterprise, which is supposed to be so robust, if, when a little difficulty comes along, the Minister must step in and "provide and operate"? I suppose it is just not fair to ask the steel barons to take on the rough with the smooth?
But that is not all of my criticism. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that a particular development which was required was an increase in blast furnace capacity. The right hon. Gentleman is to provide and operate the new works if no one else will. He is to provide and operate new blast furnaces. Where is he to do that? In a vacuum? Is he to buy his own premises and set up his blast furnaces in them? In that case he will be liable to some considerable criticism,

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surely, on the ground that he is ignoring the advice of technicians, that integration is rather good for the steel industry? Or is it that he is to put these blast furnaces down in someone else's already existing works there to work and operate them? Whichever he does, it seems to me absolutely fantastic to think that there is any real possibility of either being carried out in practice.
So what we clearly have, then, is a negative control to stop bad development, with no really effective positive control to enforce good development. There has been a great show made from the other side of the House about how necessary it is for this Board, which they propose to set up, to be impartial. The fantasy of this alleged impartiality of this Board is shown when we come to the provisions in the White Paper about the control of raw materials. If the control of raw materials means anything, it means that the possibility is there that the controller of the raw materials will have to take some raw materials from one company and give it to another. That, in fact, has been done by the Steel Corporation, as it can very well be done when the whole industry is owned centrally by the Corporation which is doing the controlling. Of course it can be done then. But how can this Board be impartial as between independent companies if it is to do just such things as that under this so-called control?
I think it also interesting to note in passing that if by any chance the steel masters have been able to obtain their raw materials—poor little things—the Board will do it for them. Where is this robust private enterprise which is supposed to be put back in the saddle by the right hon. Gentleman and his friends? I notice also in the White Paper that the Board is to be entitled to buy foreign steel and to sell it below an economic price, and to take a levy from the companies—presumably that means all the companies—in order to make good its losses and, incidentally, its ordinary expenses. They are to have consultation with the companies. Is it now the view of the Conservative Party that we can have taxation, not with representation, but just merely with consultation?
There is an endless vista of wrangling and haggling set up before our eyes by this proposal that they shall consult as
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to the levy they are to take from the individual companies on such matters as this recouping of themselves for the buying of foreign steel. And as for the transfer to the Agency of the ownership of the nationally owned steel, I think they are really being a little naïve about that; because it is all to be done by an agency appointed by the Treasury.
I suppose, at first sight, the Treasury is probably the institution best suited to deal with this matter, in that those who buy nationally owned steel are entitled to pay for it in Government stock, and the Treasury is supposed to know something about Government stock. But also this Agency is to be responsible for the efficient running of that part of the steel industry which still remains unsold. So we come to this, that it is the Treasury which is ultimately responsible for the efficient running over what may be a very long period of time of what may prove to be a large section of the steel industry.
However all this may be; however naïve, however inept and cynical—even Machiavellian—the authors of this White Paper may be, we can all agree about one thing. I think we are all agreed about the profundity of the truth expressed in paragraph 32, which says that this operation of disposing of the nationally owned steel industry may very well take some years to complete. I think most of us will agree that before those years have expired the authors of this White Paper, if they are in this House at all, will be sitting in a totally different situation—on the Opposition side—whereas on the Government Front Bench there will be a row of men who know a Tory racket when they see it, and who are themselves devoted selflessly to the service of their people.
7.30 p.m.
Mr. William Shepherd: I have listened very carefully to the remarks made by the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu). I do not feel that he himself really believed very fully what he was saying. The little burst of synthetic feeling at the end of his speech did not make up for the entire lack of conviction which he showed in dealing with this question.
I am not at all surprised. I am amazed that hon. Gentlemen opposite can stand

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up and condemn these proposals, because these were the proposals, or virtually the proposals, which the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) agreed to a few years ago.
Mr. Mikardo: Nonsense.
Mr. Shepherd: Perhaps the hon. Member who said "Nonsense" will invite the right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up for the Opposition to say in what respect there is a material difference between the Government's proposals in this White Paper and the agreement reached between the representatives of the steel trade and the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South.
Let us hear tonight, when the winding-up speeches are made, what is the material difference between these proposals and the agreement which was reached by the right hon. Gentleman. These proposals which are now condemned are ones which a short time ago received the assent of Members of the Labour Cabinet, and which were not proceeded with because, as one of my hon. Friends has already said, the Labour Cabinet had to pay the price demanded by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). Therefore, I am surprised that they have——
Mr. Mulley: The hon. Member is giving the House a lot of very interesting material. Will he tell us where we also might find the material?
Mr. Shepherd: I am merely asking the representative, of the Opposition Front Bench to request their spokesman who will wind up the debate on their side of the House, and who has some experience in this matter, to tell the House precisely where there is a material difference between these proposals and those originally accepted by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South.
We have heard a lot today about the position of the workers in the industry, and the hon. and learned Member for Brigg, who represents a constituency which has a substantial interest, asked how they could work for the steel industry when they realised that the fruits of their labour were going to the capitalist class. Is not that nonsense?
Can one conceive, for instance, from a purely social standpoint—let us consider
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the purely social standpoint and ignore the question of economic efficiency—that it is more desirable to have an organisation like the Iron and Steel Corporation, lifeless and soulless and central in its direction, or an organisation like United Steel, which had 30,000 employees and 30,000 shareholders? From a purely social point of view, is it not more in the interests of the nation to have an organisation with a local direction and with a huge number of individual owners than this huge State organisation?
If hon. Gentlemen think that vast organisation, with its central direction and with its negation of ownership, because what is owned by everybody is owned by nobody, is socially more desirable, they have a very jaundiced idea of what is either desirable——
Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: The hon. Member mentioned remarks which I made. I certainly did not say that United Steel or any other corporation did not do very good work; but I do say that it is by no means localised. It is a vast concern with no life in it. I say that the Iron and Steel Corporation has, to my knowledge in my constituency, proved itself to be much nearer to the workers there than any of the local manufacturers.
Mr. Shepherd: The hon. and learned Member cannot really tell me that the Iron and Steel Corporation is a more human organisation than United Steel. Neither can he tell me that the head figure of the Steel Corporation was any better liked by the employees of United Steel Ltd. than was Sir Benton Jones. The hon. and learned Member is not really being honest if he tries to persuade the House along those lines.
I should have preferred to have had free competition in this industry. I am a believer in free competition when it is practical, but I am perfectly satisfied that it would not be practical in this industry to operate free and unrestricted competition, and that the national interest demands a set-up such as that which the Government have proposed.
The Government's proposals meet all the really valid objections which hon. Gentlemen had to the pre-war era. The objection to the Iron and Steel Board properly lay in the fact that it had no positive powers. There has been an attempt this afternoon to ridicule the

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positive powers to be entrusted to the Board, but these positive powers are very real and will be very effective.
An hon. Gentleman connected with the steel trade said he did not think that those powers would be used. Neither do I. I think that if anything is needed in the interests of the nation, the steel industry will, at the behest of the Board, do what is necessary. They might even be prepared to levy themselves to secure what is necessary in the national interests.
One of the great features of the last 20 years, and which I urge hon. Gentlemen not to decry in any way, is the growing trusteeship of those who operate our industries, the growing responsibility and sense of public service which actuates those in charge of our great industries. I am satisfied that this positive power will be adequate, though it may not actually be used in practice.
Hon. Members opposite have asked why we should de-nationalise the steel industry. "Why not," they say, rather like the burglar who has got away with the swag, "now leave us in peace?" I think there is a more profound issue here than has perhaps been generally raised today. The efficient conduct of a great industry is a vitally important matter, much more vitally important than its ownership.
I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will get that into their heads some time or other, because this confusion in the minds of Socialists between ownership and control is really a most unintelligent one, which they should have grown out of by now. It is no use thinking of dealing with problems of the 20th century with a 19th century outlook. That is precisely what hon. Gentlemen opposite are trying to do.
This issue of nationalisation in connection with the steel industry is important because it will be setting the pattern for the conduct of certain industries in this country for many years to come. I say that because we—both parties—are agreed that some industries should be nationalised; we—both parties—are agreed among ourselves that a certain number of industries should be run under private enterprise. But there are some industries, of which the steel industry is one, about which there is a difference of opinion, and which might in this connection be described as marginal.
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I suggest to the House that it is quite wrong to confuse ownership and control. I go further and say that it is probably easier, in the national interest, to control an industry when the State does not own it than when it does. Once a State organisation becomes involved in the job of running an industry, or has a direct or indirect responsibility, it is less capable of controlling that industry in an objective manner.
Without wishing to make a party point here, I urge hon. Gentlemen to look very closely at what I consider to be their old-fashioned ideas about ownership, because effective control of industry in our modern economy and with modern techniques can be obtained without actual ownership. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South tried to deal, I thought very ineffectively, with this question. Condemning what he had approved a few years before, he said that the Board which it is at present proposed to establish will interfere with the industry more than the existing set-up.
Some of my hon. Friends have already indicated that this is by no means accurate, and it is a fallacy to believe that we can saddle the chairman of a great corporation with overall financial responsibility for an industry and deny him the right to say what he is going to do. It is absolute and utter nonsense to have a man sitting in London or elsewhere and undertaking entire responsibility for an industry, and, at the same time, allowing people at a lower level to do exactly what they like. Only a child would believe that that was possible.
Moreover, it is perfectly true to say that the longer that industry goes on, the more will be the tendency for the control to be centralised. Every time there is a mistake or something goes wrong, we shall have a regulation to deal with it. If there is a trade recession, there will be more directions, and the whole tendency will be to confine and cabin the industry as time goes on.
The House may ask what are the advantages which we say will accrue to the form of organisation which the Government propose to adopt, and I am quite prepared to deal with the question. We are not offering, and we cannot offer, complete and unbridled competition, but there are advantages in this sort of organisation.

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The first is that we retain an element of competition. When someone talks about fixing prices, let the House remember that the prices to be fixed are the maximum prices, and if, as I assume is the case, these companies will be subjected to the attentions of the Monopolies Commission, it will probably be illegal in a relatively short time in this country to try to get collective agreement to fix prices. It is quite clear that, in this system, we can have something which we could not have under our present system—the ability to compete.
Moreover, we have consumer choice. I believe that consumer choice is a very vital factor in preserving and maintaining efficiency. Hon. Gentlemen opposite believe in the damp squib of the consumer council. I do not; I think that the ability to go from one to another for what you want, instead of to a monopoly, is the best way of shaping industry. Therefore, under this system, we have competition and the right of consumer choice.
We have also an important thing which hon. Gentlemen opposite may seek to deny. We have responsibility to shareholders, and I think it is an important thing to have responsibility to shareholders. It keeps directors on their toes. If one is responsible only to a great mass of people unknown to one, then one is inclined to get a little slack, but if you are responsible to a body of shareholders, that acts as a stimulus to your own efforts. Therefore, the responsibility to shareholders which this system gives is of value.
It also has the effect of retaining individual directors who are responsible for the business of the company. I think that is a vital advantage over the system which operates at the present time. It is quite impossible to imagine a great organisation which is run centrally and in which the great impetus at the centre permeates to the perimeter. The great snag of all nationalised concerns, however forceful the central direction, is that it becomes less as it reaches the perimeter, and it is much better to have private enterprise, with a series of impulses which are local, and from which we get a higher degree of efficiency.
All these things are advantages, but, superimposed upon them is an absolutely
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certain, fixed and positive method of public supervision. That is the method of allowing the maximum private enterprise and competition which is conceivable in the circumstances, together with effective control in the public interest, which is the right method on which to run industries of this kind. The methods adopted by hon. Gentlemen opposite were old-fashioned, inefficient and do not work, and, if they give this particular method four or five years of operation, they will see that their ideas in the past were really wrong, and that this is the method by which these great industries ought to be conducted.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. D. L. Mort: Many aspects of this question have been dealt with in the debate so far, but I shall confine myself, in the short time at my disposal, to only one aspect of the problem.
I go back to the first main question, and I think that I shall be interpreting the spirit of the operatives in the engineering shops when I ask the Minister and his supporters why they are going to de-nationalise steel. I would say to the Minister and to the House that, from my own experience, I consider that the man who has a great stake in this question of steel production, and to whom reference has been made in complimentary terms today, is the man who works in the shop, and I can say that his impression of the action which the Government are taking is that this is a demolition Government.
It is a very dangerous principle in national life that we should have one Government which establishes in the State a venture as large and as important as the nationalised steel industry, and a successive Government which comes along and considers that it possesses a mandate, given during the General Election in which it was returned with a small majority, but without a single steel centre in the country fully supporting it, to undo the work that has been done by the previous Government in the nationalisation of a great industry.
Does anyone dispute that we had full democratic sanction in 1945 to carry out this mandate on behalf of the people? Nobody can dispute that, and now, when we hear the Labour Government being charged, as the hon. Member who spoke last charged them, with thinking in 19th

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century ideas, I must say that that it is the first time I have ever known the principle of nationalisation to be classified as old-fashioned. Possibly some hon. Gentlemen will recall some historical incidents and may suggest that it happened in the Garden of Eden, but, to me and to people generally, the nationalisation of industries is a very new idea. However, I will not pursue that.
The man in the workshops of the steel industry—and the Minister himself will understand this after his recent visit to South Wales—know that the great idea in the steel industry now is that of the continuous mill. The Government are not adopting that modern idea, and, if they denationalise the steel industry, they will be going back to the old reversing mill.
Let us not under-estimate the effect of the Government's action on the steel workers, because the steel worker, after all, is the father of the idea of steel nationalisation. It was in 1932, that the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation, the trade union of the industry, first tried out the idea. For years it was discussed, and then it was approved at branch meetings and at conferences, until we persuaded our movement to adopt the idea, after years of propaganda. When this industry was nationalised, the workers in steel then realised the benefits of their long years of agitation, and said, "We have come into our own."
Do not measure the steel worker's appreciation of our actions by the amount of talk. He is not loquacious; but he is a deep thinker, and he will look upon the Government's action as a working man looks upon someone who has let him down and will say, "They are not men of their word." A workshop saying about someone who can be trusted is, He is a man of his word and we can trust him."
We can rest assured, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) said, that the worker in the steel industry will deliver the goods. He voluntarily worked a seven-day week—the Government did not have to ask him to do so—and he is also a man who will glory in the opportunity that must come when we on this side of the House will be returned once more as the Government of this country of re-establishing this great principle in this industry.
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Why do we want to nationalise the steel industry? Every student of economics and of industrial history knows that the steel trade is not just a trade for making steel. It is the linchpin of trades, not only on the industrial side, but on the financial side as well. Who is going to be pleased over the action of the Government?
There are three sections of the industry, and I put the management and the men in one section. They are the people who produce the steel. But there is another section which looks upon the industry merely as a means of financial gain, as a milch cow for the financiers of the country. It has always been so in the past and will become so again. We fully realise that fact.
But the worker pleaded, argued and agitated, and he saw the principles which he advocated established in this country. He is looking forward to the day when another Labour Government will put right what the present Conservative Government are trying to undo. Production is the main thing, and at the present time every steel worker is doing his best to aid production. I want the Government to realise that their action will necessarily have a bad effect.
What was the complaint about the nationalised steel industry? Where was the trouble? Was the industry in a ferment? Were there disputes? Was there any slacking? No. Under nationalisation the industry was doing a really good job from every point of view. Yet the Government come along, not with a democratic mandate, and propose to denationalise the industry.
The Government and the Prime Minister know that they have not got the country behind them. If there were a General Election now, the Prime Minister and hon. Members opposite all know that they would lose it. Yet, despite all that and with only a very narrow majority, they propose to do this thing. We on this side of the House were taunted for many years because when we were the Government we had only a small majority, and we were taunted by the present Prime Minister that we had no mandate from the country. Hon. Members opposite have no mandate to do this, but they are going to do it.
I come back to my previous simile of the mill. I like a continuous working

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mill. The Government propose to put into effect a reversing mill. But it should be remembered that a reversing mill works both ways, and on the next occasion when we are the Government we shall restore to the steel trade and to the people generally the position that operated before the present Government came into power. We have told the people of this country that we shall do so, and I am sure the workers in the industry will say amen to our action.
7.55 p.m.
Mr. Aubrey Jones: I wish to preface what I have to say by making the customary declaration of interest. There are two aspects of this White Paper. There is, first, the alternative to nationalisation, and, secondly, the method of achieving that alternative. In the main, this discussion has been concerned—I think perfectly rightly—with the alternative. The speech of the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Mort) fell into that category and I for my part shall be happy to follow the precedent.
Before doing so, however, I want to refer to one or two observations which have been made on the method. The hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) was guilty of one or two very picturesque phrases—such as "Skimming the cream" and "Sharing the swag." I would at the outset lay down this very general principle. I think it is accepted on both sides of the House that in an act of nationalisation due regard should be paid to the rights of individuals. I would equally affirm that in any act of de-nationalisation due regard should be had to the economic and financial interests of the State.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that that principle would be transgressed if, in point of fact, one skimmed off the cream first of all. That should not be so, and I do not think it need be so. This is a developing industry, and in every such industry there is a shift of production from the older to the newer concerns. It is in everybody's interest to facilitate and expedite that shift, and the best way of doing that is by linking the older with the newer concerns. That is desirable in itself, quite apart from this operation, and if that is done I do not think there need be any skimming of the cream or any uneconomic holding by the State.
Mr. Jack Jones: Would the hon. Gentleman be able to guarantee that the United Steel Corporation, who are now managing the Barrow works on behalf of the steel Corporation, will include the Barrow works when the assets are sold?
Mr. Jones: I can give no such guarantee. I am a mere modest back bencher and am only expressing what I think is desirable. There should be no skimming of the cream.
I turn now to the primary question, the nature of the alternative. The gravamen of the charge against nationalisation was, I thought, put very well by my right hon. Friend. The very fact of establishing one owner subjected the 80 to 90 nationalised firms to one single central will. My right hon. Friend described the price which has always been paid throughout history for any great expansion of central power, and that is the ebb of vitality from the circumference. When he did that, a tremor of scepticism passed along the benches opposite.
I would remind the hon. Member for Swansea, East that exactly the same problem exists today in the trade union world. There are those who advocate a wages policy and those inside the trade union movement who very stoutly resist any such proposals. Why do they resist? They resist because they fear that any such move would place the trade unions under the tutelage of one single central will and that, as a result, the vitality of the trade union movement would ebb away.
The principle of the problem is exactly the same in this case. Nor is this a price which becomes apparent in a day, but in the long term it is apparent. Why did the party opposite proceed to the nationalisation of the steel industry? The answer has come out today in speech after speech, and in the speech of the hon. Member for Swansea, East. The answer, fundamentally, was one of mistrust. It was thought that if these 90 odd nationalised firms were left to their own devices and pursued their own ends they would set the ends of society at naught.
This is the fear, the mistrust. But merely because one may fear the abuse of freedom one does not eliminate freedom. One tries to channel or guide it.

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Unless we can do that there is no hope or future for us as a free society. We may as well, all of us on both sides of the House, throw up the sponge. I should have thought that that general principle was unassailable, and it is because this White Paper seeks to apply that general principle in miniature to the segment of the steel industry, that I believe in it.
The proposals in the White Paper, it seems to me, do two things. By restoring these 80 or 90 firms to separate sets of owners they restore a power of independent action and the tug of competition. At the same time they set up a Board to perform—if I may so paraphrase it—three functions; first to check abuse, secondly to temper the individual considerations of profit with wider public considerations, and thirdly—I would underline this—to act, as I conceive it, as a spur or a prod.
If these privately owned 80 or 90 firms were to seem to be defaulting and not complying with the needs of society, there would in the last resort be a prod exercised by this Board. I would affirm that all the fears that have been expressed on the opposite benches, all the expressions of mistrust, can in fact be effectively met by this arrangement. We have heard that this Board is negative. If it is negative, quite clearly it has power to check monopolistic abuse. Where it has a power to fix maximum prices there cannot be monopolistic activities.
We heard from the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) a long and, I think, distorted history of the past—how the needs of this country dictated a capacity of X tons, and the steel industry would only furnish a capacity of Y tons, a lower figure. I do not accept his version of the past, but suppose for the sake of argument that we accept that as a hypothetical assumption. Suppose the privately owned steel industry were willing to extend only to a certain level and the needs of society dictated a higher one; what would happen? Under these proposals the Government would be able to step in with a sanction.
Hon. Members opposite who today have decried this conception have, in fact, a name for it—a very good name. They call it competitive public enterprise. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) used the phrase "keeping the
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industry on its toes." The whole virtue of the idea of competitive public enterprise is to keep an industry primarily privately owned on its toes, and that, I would have thought, would have been effectively performed by this arrangement.
The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South said "Ah, but the State would be left with the uneconomic projects." I remember, I think just under two years ago, the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South went to Oxford to attend a week-end conference at Nuffield College. I think the hon. Member for Reading, South (Mr. Mikardo) was there too. It was a conference concerned with the problems of nationalised industries. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South made this point; I remember it in the papers perfectly well. He said, suppose the Government, the country, in their own interests wanted a project which was uneconomical, no power could be applied to a nationalised board to undertake that uneconomical project. The nationalised board has to make its ends meet. Some other arrangement would have to be made. Exactly the same applies here.
Mr. Mikardo: I hate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman on what may seem to be merely a procedural point, but I am sure he will recall that when Nuffield College holds these conferences, speakers are invited to go and, as it were, let their back hair down, on the promise that none of the people who attend will quote the proceedings of the conference. I am sure that fact has just slipped the hon. Gentleman's mind for a moment, and I thought that he would be glad to be reminded of it.
Mr. Jones: I am sorry if I am guilty of any breach of propriety. I was not, in fact, one of the privileged people present. I merely read the reports. If I am guilty of a breach I readily withdraw.
However, it seems to me that the problem is applicable in either case, whether we have a privately-owned industry supervised in this way or a nationalised industry. Nor is this solution a hypothetical one or untried. There is, in fact, a precedent for it—a precedent in quite a different field—to which, so far as I have been able to discover, the

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party opposite have never demurred. The Electricity Act of 1926 gave the Central Electricity Board power to build its own generating stations if private undertakers were unable or unwilling to build them. That power was exercised, I believe, on three occasions. I think it has been generally held that that Act was a satisfactory solution of the problem of electricity generation. That is the precedent.
However, if hon. Members opposite are not particularly happy with that aspect, may I commend to them another? The hon. Member for Swansea, East spoke as a trade unionist. During and since the war there has grown up the practice of allowing the trade unions a share in the making of industrial policy. I approve that development; I welcome it. In the steel industry the trade unions played that role during and immediately after the war through a consultative committee with the employers. They played it, under the 1945–50 Government, in the old Iron and Steel Board.
Then there came nationalisation, and they lost that position. They lost it for a very simple reason, which is very well known to hon. Members opposite. The Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain—that is a nationalised undertaking—was not only a policy making body. It was also an employing body. The trade unions could not easily accept representations on an employing body without compromising their independence and their freedom to bargain. That is why the Acts of nationalisation merely provide for the presence of somebody with trade union experience on the Board of a nationalised undertaking. But this is different. The Iron and Steel Board in this White Paper, would not be an employing body. It would be a policy making body. On that body, for the reasons that I have given, the steel trade unions as such could accept representation.
If hon. Members opposite wish to reject the solution offered in this White Paper, let them do so fully realising that they are rejecting an opportunity which re-nationalisation could not restore to them. May I further put before them this consideration. As I understand it, as an external spectator, the industrial policy of the Labour Party rests on two
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pillars. For basic industries, nationalisation; and for other non-basic industries, industrial boards—to use a phrase of the T.U.C. 1944 Report on Postwar Reconstruction—development councils, competitive public enterprise.
I confess as a spectator that I have never really understood the logic of the distinction. What is basic and what is non-basic? I do not know. But surely what this White Paper promises is an industrial board or a development council armed with the sanction of competitive public enterprise. If that arrangement is suitable for some industries, why is it not suitable for the steel industry? There is not a single speech from the benches opposite today which has made any attempt to answer what I consider is the crucial question. If hon. Members opposite wish to reject this solution, let them reject it fuly realising that they are condemning and rejecting a whole half—if I may say so, the better half—of their entire programme.
The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale wrote in the "Tribune" on the eve of the Morecambe Conference a plea for what he called a new thrust forward. I think that was the phrase used. In the course of that article he made use of what I thought was a very pregnant sentence. He said that the effective defence of nationalisation is to add to the nationalised industries. The right hon. Gentleman was powerfully right. The logic is inexorable and irrefutable. If what has been done is good, then by all means it is right to extend it, to add to the nationalised industries. But I suggest that those who are not for a policy of thrusting forward, but for a policy of consolidation, have also to face up to the logic of that sentence.
If there is doubt about extending nationalisation, equally there must be doubt about what has been done. And if there is to be found for what is now known as the private sector a solution other than nationalisation, then there is no reason why that same solution should not apply to some of the industries now nationalised—to the steel industry. What has been done is not perfect just because it has been done, and to defend it on that ground—which I suspect to be the main ground—is to defend it, if I may use the phrase without offence, from hurt pride, and hurt pride never was the wisest of counsellors nor the strongest of motives.
8.13 p.m.
Mr. Maurice Edelman: The Minister of Supply and those who followed him on his side of the House have taken as their theme that they wish to undo the harm done to the iron and steel industry by nationalisation. I waited for evidence from him of any harm that had been done. I thought that he might possibly have quoted from the Report of the Iron and Steel Corporation presented to him not long ago, but instead of that he showed an extraordinary coyness.
In fact, although the Report is actually addressed to him by Sir John Green, the new Chairman of the Corporation, I doubt very much whether the Minister of Supply can have read it, because if he had done so he would have seen that the iron and steel industry under nationalisation is in a buoyant condition, and the difficulties from which it suffers are the difficulties which are imposed upon it by private enterprise as represented by the Iron and Steel Federation, whose spokesman the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) is in fact.
Mr. Aubrey Jones: I am afraid I am no spokesman. I am merely an executive, that is, one of the salariat, with no more direct interest in profit than any wage earner in the industry.
Mr. Edelman: I assume that the hon. Gentleman does not dissent from the general policy of the Iron and Steel Federation, and it will be my purpose tonight to try to show that it is precisely that policy which has hampered the development of the Corporation. Although for a long period there was some sort of spurious friendship shown by the Federation to the Corporation, in fact the Federation has at every point sought to shackle and hold down with its reluctant hand the progress of the Corporation.
If we look at the actual Report and Statement of Accounts, we have the picture of an industry which is in remarkably good health. Profits are running at a rate of £65 million per annum, and in 1952 the profits will probably be running at the rate of £70 million per annum. In addition, the industry has a record of development and expansion, all of which redounds very much to the credit of those who manage and those who work inside the industry. I do see one serious gap in
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the Report. I very much regret that those who drafted and formulated the Report did not have the good grace to pay tribute to the admirable work done by Mr. Steven Hardie, to whose credit must go the excellent results described in this Report.
None the less, the facts speak for themselves, and those facts are that the industry is buoyant and productive. Despite all the difficulties which it has had to face, the industry today is doing well, and there is absolutely no economic reason whatsoever for its de-nationalisation. I must say that among the difficulties which the industry is facing is the fact that the consuming industries in this country are asking for steel at the rate of at least 19 million tons per annum, and the iron and steel industry is producing at the rate of something like 16 million tons per annum. It is true that that may be increased this year, and possibly still further increased next year.
We have to consider: Why is it that the iron and steel industry today faces this gap between its performance, its production, and the demands which are being made on it, whereas in the world outside, as an hon. Gentleman opposite mentioned earlier, America, for example, has in a single year raised its annual output by the total amount of our own annual production, while Germany is coming into the market, and Japan, too, is threatening to become an extremely dangerous competitor not only by reason of the cheap price of its steel but also—and I, personally, am directly concerned in this matter, because I represent a constituency which lives on its steel—because the products which are made from that cheap steel are entering world markets in competition with our own. We have to ask ourselves why it is that the steel industry faces those conditions today.
Let us consider what happened in the last year, when the iron and steel industry of Britain, despite the fact that we had the productive capacity for increasing our output, was unable to do so. The reason is stated in the Report. The major reason we were unable to raise our steel output beyond the level of 16 million tons was that we could not get hold of the iron ore we needed for our industry. We might well ask: Why is it that we did not get hold of that iron ore? Was that a failure of the nationalised industry?

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The answer is, "Certainly not." It was a failure of the private sector of the iron and steel industry, dominated by the Iron and Steel Federation, and controlled by the Iron and Steel Ore Company, which is under the domination of the Iron and Steel Federation.
Let me illustrate that with one example, which I personally regard as being scandalous. There was a case of the Sierra Leone Development Company, a company controlled by a British firm which was outside the limit of iron and steel nationalisation, a company which was financed in part by the Colonial Development Corporation, and which was concerned with the production of iron ore, which we in this country vitally needed last year.
In those circumstances, that being a company owned by a British firm, a company financed by the Colonial Development Corporation, it would be thought that the first call on that vitally needed ore would have been made by the British iron and steel industry and that the first supplies would have been allocated to our own industry. In fact, what happened? The major output of the Sierra Leone Development Company went to the United States and to Germany. We did not get the major resources of the Sierra Leone Company. The result was that even when the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister went to America in order to buy his million pounds worth of steel, which my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) was talking about, and when he bought that steel, we had returned to us from the United States steel manufactured from the iron ore of Sierra Leone.
Is that a failure of a nationalised corporation or is it a failure of private enterprise? The answer is, surely, that it is a failure of private enterprise, and surely the failure of those who constantly resisted the attempts of the former chairman of the nationalised Corporation to bring the purchase and procurement of iron ore within the ambit of the nationalised sector of that industry.
Therefore, I would say that the first lesson of this debate is not that we should have less nationalisation, not that we should have de-nationalisation, but that, as soon as possible, we should proceed to the nationalisation of those sectors of
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the iron and steel industry, and in particular that sector which is concerned with the procurement of raw materials, which hitherto have escaped nationalisation. Only when that is done can we hope to have a really integrated nationalised industry, serving the nation in the way in which it has done.
The whole history of the relationship between the Iron and Steel Federation and the British Iron and Steel Corporation has been the reluctance, to put it no more strongly, on the part of the Federation to co-operate with the objects and purposes of the nationalised industry. It is one of our tragedies that when the Conservative Government came to power the member of the nationalised Corporation who most conspicuously believed in the purpose for which he had been appointed to serve the Corporation was driven out of office by the action undertaken by the present Minister of Supply.
I should like to illustrate yet further what the Minister of Supply, in conjunction with the Iron and Steel Federation, has done in order to frustrate the purpose of the Iron and Steel Act, 1949. It is perfectly true that this year the profits of the industry are running at the rate of something like £17 million per annum. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) said, there are times when to make a profit of that nature may be inimical to the best interests of the country, and indeed that is happening today.
The Minister of Supply—I have alleged before in his presence, and I do it now in his absence, and no doubt his Parliamentary Secretary will report to him what I say—did arbitrarily raise the price of iron and steel against the advice of those competent to know the situation, and he did so at a time when we were entering into a most difficult sellers' market. The result is that today the motor industry of Britain and the engineering industry are facing competition of the most vicious kind, competition in which we ourselves have been hamstrung and hampered by these extra burdens which the Minister has imposed on the consumer industry by this arbitrary rise in the price of steel
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. A. R. W. Low): The hon. Gentleman keeps making these charges against my right hon. Friend. I

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am sure that he does not want to mislead the House. He said that my right hon. Friend had done this against the advice of those who are closely concerned. Does he not remember hearing over and over again that it was not against the advice of the Corporation? Does he not remember that, and will he not acknowledge it?
Mr. Edelman: I do not want to revive old disputes, and I shall merely recall to the hon. Gentleman that that matter was left open because his right hon. Friend was unwilling to publish the correspondence between himself and the Corporation. I shall not withdraw my charge that the price of iron and steel was arbitrarily raised. Let us consider the facts, which speak for themselves.
The fact is that today the motor and engineering industries are burdened with a very large share of that £17 million profit which the Iron and Steel Corporation have made for the iron and steel industry. I would merely recall that the most responsible spokesmen of the Iron and Steel Corporation, at the time when the charges were imposed on the industry, said that those charges were excessive, uneconomic and would be harmful to the country. I repeat that today the difficulties in which the motor industry is finding itself in the export markets of the world have been increased by the intervention, the unnecessary, unmerited and unwanted intervention, of the Minister of Supply in these matters.
Now let me turn, before I conclude, to one other matter. We all recognise that the most important problem which faces the iron and steel industry today is the problem of development and expansion, and associated with that is the question of rationalising production. The rationalisation of production, if undertaken by private enterprise—and Jarrow is one example of that—in the interests of private profit can do nothing but cause resentment and bitterness among those who are rationalised out of existence; whereas, if rationalisation is undertaken according to a national plan and in the national interest, where the workers and the managers, and all those concerned in the matter realise the purpose of such rationalisation, where there is compensation provided for those who might otherwise suffer and alternative work created for those who might otherwise
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be unemployed, in those circumstances, when rationalisation is related to the national need, it is indeed an entirely different matter.
I venture to suggest that is the form of rationalisation and development which has already gone a long way under the nationalised Corporation. That form has proved acceptable to those concerned directly in the industry, and if that form of rationalisation and development is upset, then indeed there will be trouble in the industry.
On the question of development, there are great plans in hand which will require large sums to finance them. If the industry is turned over to private enterprise, who is going to undertake the financing of these enterprises, and who is going to undertake the financing of this development? I can quote one example of one firm with £1 million capital which today has projects to the extent of £8 million worth of development, and it is quite clear that if in fact the industry is returned to private enterprise, either that particular firm will have to have a public loan, either it will have to engage in its development by means of public finance, or alternatively it will have to allow the projected development to drop.
Both the alternatives are undesirable. If the development is dropped, the country will suffer; equally if that development is financed by public funds it will mean that, although the financing is done publicly, there will be absolutely no public control whatever of the development so financed.
So I say that on all counts the present political intervention, this doctrinal intervention by the Government in a matter which is the bread and butter of so many people throughout the country, is gratuitous, unnecessary and unwanted. We live in a very dangerous world in which competition is becoming keener every year and one in which we have seen an enormous expansion of the competitive steel industries throughout the world, but all we can say of our own industry is that we are barely managing to keep pace with the demands of the consumers. We are already priced out of the competitive steel market, and we are in danger of being priced out on the steel products on which this country lives.

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Therefore, I hope the Government will have second thoughts about this matter. I hope the Government will not disturb the delicate balance of an industry which is now seen to be expanding and developing and to be full of the promise which is expressed in the Report and Statement of Accounts presented by the nationalised Corporation to the Minister of Supply. My last word to the Minister is that he should read the document, for I am convinced that if he does so he will be converted to nationalisation.
8.31 p.m.
Mr. R. Brooman-White: I am glad to be able to follow the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman). I do not wish to pursue the issue he has raised about the relationship between the Corporation and the Ministry of Supply—I thought that question had been adequately answered in a previous debate—but he also referred to raw materials supplied to the industry. He represents a steel manufacturing constituency in England, and I represent a steel manufacturing constituency in Scotland, and no doubt we have both met similar problems.
The hon. Member instanced the specific case of difficulties in connection with supplies from Sierra Leone, about which I am not fully documented. The hon. Member instanced it as a failure of private enterprise. I do not know if he is right, conceivably he may be so. I do not wish to overstate my case, but the hon. Member is no doubt aware, as we all are, that if we wish to dig into the past in allocating blame for raw material difficulties the negotiations by the Socialist Government in dealing with Germany over the supply of scrap are also, to say the least of it, susceptible to question.
The views on nationalisation of the people in the industry were referred to by the hon. Member for Swansea. East (Mr. Mort). The hon. Gentleman has great experience in this matter, and I do not question his views, but when hon. Members instance the views of the workers, is it not a factor that after nationalisation the workers in the industry experienced short-time working? I do not allocate blame for that, but I merely suggest that it came as a shock to a number of people in the industry who had
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assumed that in future nationalisation would protect them from the dangers of short-time working and unemployment. They had unduly high hopes—I put it no higher than that—but experience did not justify them.
The lesson is obvious. The industry in future can really only be protected by competitive efficiency and effective organisation, and it is that with which we are primarily concerned. I am sure, moreover, that we all agree that when we are debating the future of the industry, that the important thing is not to emphasise the points on which we differ but to establish the points on which we agree, for if there is not a sufficiently wide basis of agreement between us the industry is not going to have any future at all.
In allocating the blame for past events, hon. Gentlemen opposite have spoken as if nationalisation was developed in the normal course of events, that there had been no question of rushing things through or of difficulty about the vesting date, and that they can now sit back in a white sheet and cast upon this side of the House the blame for having interrupted natural processes. That is a very peculiar interpretation to put on the facts. However, a point on which we agree is that some stability must be given to the industry in future. As the hon. Member for Swansea, East said, the shuttlecock process must be stopped. Everyone agrees that a settlement must be reached.
Of course, everyone wants the settlement to be strictly in accordance with his own ideas of what should be done, and if it is not strictly in accordance with his own ideas, he wants it at least to be in accordance with as much as possible of the doctrine and dogma of his side. Each side would be very glad if the other side said, "All right. A lasting agreement is necessary. We give up. Have it all your own way. We contract out." It would be most agreeable to us if hon. Gentlemen opposite would say that, but obviously we cannot expect them to do so. Neither can hon. Gentlemen opposite expect us to cast overboard all our views on the most effective way in which this industry should be organised for the future.
What faces us in the world of political realities? We are faced with the prospect of constant change leading to the ultimate ruin of the industry, or we are faced

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with the need for agreement and compromise. If an agreement is to be reached we must look for a basis from which to start, and I suggest that the White Paper provides such a basis. I do not expect hon. Gentlemen opposite to agree to that suggestion with howls of enthusiasm.
Mr. Mikardo: The hon. Member does not sound very enthusiastic himself.
Mr. Brooman-White: I do not, because it is extremely difficult. I am responsible, as their representative, for the future of a considerable number of steel workers who will suffer if an agreement is not reached, and the whole tenor of the debate has shown that it is not going to be easy to reach an agreement.
Mr. James Simmons: They are not suffering now.
Mr. Brooman-White: The object of our discussion is to ensure that they do not suffer in the future. I believe the White Paper provides the best possible basis for agreement. We must recognise that there is a need for a reasonably sound and durable agreement to be reached and that neither side will concede the whole of its case. We recognise the misgivings that hon. Gentlemen opposite have about private enterprise. In the main, they claim it does not sufficiently serve the public interest, but in Part II of this White Paper, which has been fully explained by the Minister, there are extensive provisions for ensuring that private enterprise is guided by the public interest.
I do not want to repeat the points made by the Minister on this issue, but one thing which I would emphasise is that if hon. Gentlemen opposite are not satisfied with the conditions of Part II they are perfectly susceptible to amendment or change. It is right they should be. The details of these proposals are not going to be valid in all circumstances for all time, but such improvements or alterations in Part II could be carried out without interfering with the essential stability of the industry. That is a purely practical matter to meet changing circumstances and changing needs, and on that there should be no great difficulty.
The real issue comes down to the ownership of this block of shares mentioned in Part III of the White Paper.
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That is the real root and crux of the difficulties, but I do not believe it is nearly as large and as formidable a root as the course of the debate might make it appear. I personally am not concerned with who holds the shares, except in so far as it should affect the efficiency of the organisation and the guidance of the industry. By and large, I should like to see an increasing proportion of the shares held by those actually employed in the industry, but I do not wish to detain the House by developing that argument now.
The question of the ownership of these shares is one which has been seized on by hon. Gentlemen opposite. They had something critical to say of some remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) about 19th century thought. At least they cannot accuse us of 19th century laissez faire or the Manchester school approach to private enterprise after they have read Part II of the White Paper which deals with public supervision of the iron and steel industry. I hope that hon. Members opposite from their side will not cling with undue frenzy to those ideas originating from the 19th century about the essential need for public ownership in order to have effective public control.
We understand their misgivings about private enterprise, and to a very large measure that is met in the Part II of the White Paper. I hope they understand our misgivings about the effect of centralised, nationalised control, through public ownership. They may say that our fears of over-centralisation, of rigidity, of lack of efficiency, of weakness on the periphery of the decline of responsibility by the man on the spot to make decisions—these are all exaggerated. But they cannot be 100 per cent. sure they are right in this.
We have given assurances to offset the fears that they might have of any failure under private enterprise to protect the public interest. Can they not see our point of view and accept the measures necessary to ensure that the fears we have about the possible effects of State ownership of these block of shares will never be realised? However violent their convictions, hon. Members opposite, and particularly those from my part of the country, may well remember what Oliver Cromwell said to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, "I beseech

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you, think it possible you may be mistaken?" Hon. Members opposite should go some part of the way to meet the dangers we fear and suggest adequate provisions for that course.
I do not want to pursue at any length the issues that were raised about profits and the safeguards for the development of productive capacity set out in the White Paper. There are safeguards against any excess profits being made, and if by any chance those safeguards do not work fully or adequately in practice they can be changed or improved. That raises no question of deep principle.
On the question of the development of the productive capacity, it has been generally accepted that in exceptional products of strategic necessity it is right that the nation should carry the burden. And it is unlikely that there will be any difficulty in the industry financing the development of profitable lines or sound commercial propositions.
Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I have been listening sympathetically to the hon. Gentleman, and I gather that he wants to compromise on something or other. Whether that is himself or the Tory Party, or iron and steel——
Dr. H. Morgan: Or Oliver Cromwell.
Mr. Mitchison: —I do not know. He said that this White Paper was a compromise, but is it not the authentic policy of the Tory Party, and if not, what is the authentic policy of the Tory Party? If the hon. Member wants a compromise on parts of this document, what compromise does he suggest?
Mr. Brooman-White: I apologise to the House if I have been so extremely unlucid in presenting my argument that the hon. and learned Gentleman has not followed one single word of it. So that he may understand, I will recapitulate very briefly what I have been arguing. We have to find an agreed solution which does not change with each swing of the political pendulum. A solution cannot be reached by each side abandoning all their previous ideas. That is outside the nature of political realities. So we have to work out, in the coming debates on the steel industry, some sort of basis which is rational and reasonably durable
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and which we can all agree to let stand. I am now suggesting that in the White Paper there are the necessary roots for such an agreement.
That is the intention of these debates. If we do not achieve such a solution, one side or the other will lose votes; which it is will depend on circumstances and the swing of political opinion; but one thing is quite certain: the people employed in the industry will be in the gravest danger not of losing votes but of losing their jobs. That is a good deal more serious. I am confident that if we can keep these considerations in mind during the discussions in this House, we shall be able to evolve measures to meet the difficulties, and to give the industry the basis of stability which it must enjoy if it is to meet the increasing foreign competition referred to by previous speakers—the stability necessary to safeguard not only the livelihood of those who work in the industry, but the economy of the whole country.
8.47 p.m.
Mrs. Eirene White: We have just heard three rather lengthy lectures on Tory doctrine relating to the control of industry, with some suggestion that we on our side of the House are not competent to carry out our own Socialist doctrines about the relationship of industry with the community. The hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd), who is not in his place, and the two hon. Members opposite who followed him, suggested that because some of us have given a certain amount of thought and attention to possible alternative methods of dealing with certain industries not including outright public ownership of the entire industry, and because we do not wish to apply these alternatives to the steel industry, we are somehow inconsistent and old-fashioned.
To put it very briefly, the steel industry has certain characteristics which make it entirely unsuitable for the various alternatives which have been suggested for other and minor industries in this country. The steel industry is basic in every sense of the word and of paramount importance, next only, I suggest, to coal, in the industrial structure of the country. Further than that, it has units of such magnitude financially that it is not susceptible to other types of treatment which may be appropriate for

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industries in which very much smaller units dominate.
Thirdly, to clear up this matter of doctrine, the steel industry of this country has been organised as a most powerful cartel and there is every likelihood that it will be so run again if it is returned to private hands. Therefore, in the view of hon. Members on this side of the House, it is not susceptible to treatment which might be suitable for other industries, for the reasons which I have briefly tried to indicate.
Hon. Members on the Government side have suggested that we are lacking in public spirit because we propose, if we are returned to power, to continue the experiment of national ownership of this industry. I put it to them in all fairness that the other method of running the industry, that of private enterprise, has had a pretty long run for several generations, some 80 or 90 years, as a modern industry in which to try out that method. Hon. Members opposite left us precisely nine months before the Minister's standstill Order to the Corporation. If they suggest to the country that this was a fair trial, they will find it extremely difficult to convince people that they have given any fair trial to the alternative method of running this industry which was proposed by the Labour Government.
Furthermore, suggestions have been made by hon. Members opposite that we on this side of the House have suggested that in the selling of enterprises back to private owners there would be something dishonest in the methods proposed to be adopted. Were we discussing transport during this debate, I would say that charge might properly be made: that there is a definite element of dishonesty in the proposals for selling back the units in the road transport industry.
What we are saying about the steel industry is not that there is the element of thoroughly dishonourable "fiddle" which is to be found in the transport proposals. What we are saying is that in the nature of things, if you are proposing to sell back a mixed industry in which some units are quite clearly much more profitable than others, it is obvious to the most ordinary intelligence that it is the most profitable units which will be taken first; that it is units about which there may be some doubt which will perhaps be left lingering in the hands of
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the holding Agency, the watchdog of the Treasury; that there will be indubitably certain units, including no doubt the eight units marked in this Report, as making a loss at the present time, that will remain in the hands of the public. To say that the cream will go to private enterprise first is a simple statement of fact without any doctrinaire implications.
What, in brief, are the problems facing this industry and how does this White Paper really propose to deal with them? In the first place, one great disadvantage of these proposals is that the industry for a period of years, as is made quite clear in the White Paper, will be in a state of uncertainty and we shall have the most illogical conglomeration of different types of enterprise in the industry. I will quote, if I may, not a newspaper of our side but the "Economist," which quite properly asks:
"Can some modus vivendi be found between privately-owned re-rollers and ironfounders,"—
that is to say, ones which have not been nationalised—
"ex-nationalised steel makers (perhaps still part-owned by the state), a residue of nationalised companies, and conceivably some uneconomic plants owned by the Ministry of Supply?"
It is said that we on this side split the industry, but what kind of pattern is the Ministry of Supply offering to us in this kind of conglomeration?
But more serious than that, the big problem which faces the steel industry in this country—which was underlined in the excellent Report of the Anglo-American Productivity Team and which is touched on again in the first Annual Report of the Corporation itself—is that of reorganisation and concentration of the industry if we are to be able to meet competition in steel production.
It is made quite clear in the Report of the Anglo-American Productivity Team that the size of the steel-making enterprises in this country is much too small for us to be able to compete adequately with other countries. Is is suggested in that report that the optimum size for bulk making of steel is somewhere between three quarters of a million and one million ingot tons per annum, whereas the average size of the firms in this country engaged in that process is somewhere in the region of 325,000 tons per annum.

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Therefore, although it is true that we have the problem of expanding our production, we must do it selectively, and that means reducing the number of plants and increasing the size of those in operation.
I do not pretend that we can go as far in this country as they have done in the United States—that would be impracticable; but that is clearly the direction in which we ought to go. If we are to do that, it is perfectly clear that not only have we to undertake very considerable capital expenditure in certain plants and areas, but we have to eliminate a number of other plants. That, surely, is the crux of the matter.
Even in the White Paper, it is quite clear from paragraph 33 which says that—
"Before disposal, the Agency may effect such re-groupings of the undertakings or alterations in the capital structure of companies as may be desirable"
that the Government realise that even before they hand the industry back to private enterprise, some re-organisation is essential. I point out to them that even this degree of re-organisation would not have been possible had we not nationalised the industry.
I put it to the Minister of Supply that this re-organisation, which is absolutely vital, is not something which we can do now. It is necessarily a continuing process. It is not something that is done at one point of time and then is finished with for good. It is obvious in industrial history that this kind of elimination of certain uneconomic units should be done as a continuing process.
One of the troubles before the war was precisely that it was nobody's business to eliminate the uneconomic plants and units. The fact that that kind of action is so necessary, and that on the financial and the personal plane it can be achieved much more smoothly and expeditiously if we have the ownership of the industry, so that one unit can be balanced against another—if somebody is taken out of one firm because it is believed that that firm should be closed down, there would be opportunities for transfer to some other unit in the industry—is one of the very strong reasons why we believe that public ownership, and not merely control, is absolutely essential.
Mr. P. Roberts: Is the hon. Lady now arguing that she wants to retain nationalisation in order to close down firms and to move people from one place to another? If so, what firms in Sheffield, for instance, does she intend to close down?
Mrs. White: I have no intention of interfering with the affairs of Sheffield. As far as my own constituency is concerned, it has an extremely efficient steel plant, which I have no doubt whatever will not be closed down under any form of ownership.
I believe that those objections which I have already put before the House are the strongest, bearing in mind the future of the industry, but I should like very much to have far more explanation than we have had hitherto of the way in which the proposed organisation as outlined in the White Paper is likely to work.
Certain powers are placed within the purview of the Board. The great question is whether in these circumstances any board which has to face the organisation of Steel House would be in the least likely to exercise those powers. Is the Minister likely to be able to find a suitable chairman for the Board, when he will know that he will have to fight Steel House if he wishes to exercise those powers? I suggest that it would be extremely difficult to find a chairman for the Board who would be the right kind of person and who would wish to exercise the powers which theoretically are allotted to him.
In the same way, there is power for taking civil action in the courts which is given to the Board in order to enforce its decisions. But anyone who has the slightest knowledge of the great reluctance of Government Departments—and I am sure that reluctance will extend to the Board—of taking any action in the courts, and the reluctance of lawyers to advise them to take action in the courts, will realise that that power is likely to remain a dead letter.
Finally, it is clear to all of us that what will result from this White Paper, if it should be put into operation, will not be free enterprise. There is really no one who has any knowledge of the way in which the steel industry is organised who would suppose for one moment that what we shall have is a return to free enterprise

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which the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade), for example, no doubt in his dreams still believes might be possible. It is quite possible we shall have once again a tightly controlled monopoly in which the real control is still likely to reside in Steel House and not with the Board. I believe we shall never be able to overcome that particular difficulty until we have returned a Government which will put the industry into public hands, in which ownership will make control a reality and not just a theory in a White Paper.
9.2 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Strauss: I think the most important and strangest feature of this debate has been the revelation that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to believe that the proposals set out in the White Paper are regarded by us with some disfavour but no real opposition, that our dislike of this White Paper is really a tepid affair and that we do not feel very sincere or keen about it. I hope that after the speeches made by my hon. Friends today, particularly the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), that that illusion no longer remains in the minds of hon. Members opposite.
I will deal with this matter again later on, and when I come to the end of my remarks I hope there will be no possible lingering doubt in the minds of anyone in this House as to what our views are about these ridiculous and wholly foolish proposals. At the moment, I wish to correct something which the Minister of Supply said, I am sure inadvertently, when he suggested that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) had spoken not unfavourably about these proposals, when he had called them an "olive branch" put forward by the Government.
I do not accuse the Minister of deliberately misleading the House; I am sure he did not intend to do that. I do accuse him of the grossest recklessness in making a quotation without verifying it and, in fairness to my right hon. Friend, I must read what he said on 29th July this year when he was talking about the economic position:
"… I think it is very regrettable that at this moment, when expansion in steel production in this country is probably the most important thing of all to provide the basis
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for the engineering expansion I mentioned, the Government should have seen fit to introduce their ridiculous offer for handing back the industry to private enterprise.…."
I omit a few sentences for the sake of brevity. My right hon. Friend went on to say:
"The Chancellor held out a queer looking olive branch on that subject this afternoon.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th July, 1952; Vol. 504. c. 1313.]
Let it not be said, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman did not mean it to be understood, that anything my right hon. Friend said was in the slightest degree in favour of the proposals now before us.
Two or three misconceptions have been put forward by hon. Members opposite, and I should like to say a word about them before I deal with the detailed proposals in the White Paper. One is that the Iron and Steel Board, which operated in the Ministry of Supply prior to the nationalisation Act, was in any way a satisfactory instrument for controlling the iron and steel industry. It was not, and it was never intended to be.
It was a body set up to advise the Minister over the two or three years which would have to elapse before nationalisation came into operation. It was a temporary arrangement, and its function—I agree it worked very well—was to review development programmes put forward by firms in the iron and steel industry and advise the Minister about them; and also to advise the Minister on certain price matters.
But neither that Board nor the Minister at the time had any powers whatever over the industry to plan, to reorganise, to tell the industry what it should do in the national interest, none whatever. And it is just those powers which we maintain the Government of this country should have, and has to-day, but will not have if these White Paper proposals are ever embodied in an Act of Parliament.
There is a smaller point I wish to make about one statement, in view of the alarm which might be created unless it is corrected. The hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Robson Brown), who I did not think was quite so unprejudiced and fair in his speech today as he usually is, said several things which were not correct. One was certainly very incorrect.

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If I understood him aright, he said that the Corporation was proposing to bring about a regional re-organisation of the industry, under which the various steel companies concerned would lose their identity and their names. Let me assure the hon. Member at once that unless this has happened since I was Minister of Supply—and I think it was so far from the mind of the Corporation when I left it that I cannot conceive that that would happen—such an idea, I know, never entered the head of the Corporation.
What it was considering, and I should have liked to see the Corporation in existence for a long time so that it could carry it out, was a functional re-organisation of the industry which I think would be desirable; but not regional re-organisation or any scheme by which the firms would lose their names and reputations which they have in this country and abroad.
The next misconception which I should like to remove, if I possibly can, is one which is in the minds of all hon. Members opposite, and indeed in the minds of many people outside this House. It is that the steel industry, in the post-war years, did everything that was possible in expanding its capacity and production, and that the Prime Minister was right when he spoke at Scarborough recently and said that the great expansion of the steel industry during the last few years had been due to the careful planning and enterprise of private ownership.
I wish to make two comments on that. First, it was the Government that decided that the steel industry should have all the resources for capital development which it required, and whatever was asked for, was granted. The Government did all they could to use the resources of the country for that purpose, but the industry did not do anything like as much as it said it was going to do.
In view of what has been said, it is vital for the House to realise what happened to the £169 million development programme which the industry announced in 1945–46, saying "This great development scheme we shall carry out." Indeed, they used that as an argument against nationalisation. They said, "Look at what we are going to do. We have our own plan which will cost almost
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£170 million, which we shall carry out during the next five years."
When the Steel Corporation took up its responsibilities in February, 1951, they found that 50 per cent. of that work had not even been started, and that only 2½ per cent. had been completed. I wish to be fair to the steel industry. I would add that there were in many cases good reasons why a project was looked at again and why certain work set out in the 1945 programme was not carried out. It is also true to say that in some cases other work was carried out in its place.
Nevertheless, it is still true to say that a great bulk of the work promised by the steel industry in 1945 for development during the following five years was not carried out. If it had been carried out in full, or the equivalent had been carried out in full, the steel capacity of this country today would be far higher than it is. We would be in a more comfortable position and would not have had to import so much steel and semis and ingots from abroad, particularly from America, as we have had to do.
The first question I should like to ask the Government, when they bring these White Paper proposals before us today, is why they have found it necessary at this stage to bring about any change in the set-up of the steel industry at all? I ask this particularly in view of the assertions so frequently made by the leaders of the party opposite during the last few years that nothing would harm the steel industry more in this period of its development than plunging it into uncertainty.
I ask this question too because it is obvious, anyhow probable, that the process of long drawn out de-nationalisation—we are told it will take many years—which is proposed in the White Paper, will cause more uncertainty than the act of simultaneous nationalisation which, as we know, was carried out smoothly and without any disruptive effect at all. But under the Government's proposals the Boards of many, indeed it may be most, of the iron and steel companies will not know for years where they are, or who their owners are to be. I suggest that nothing could be more detrimental to the welfare and development of those companies than this lack of confidence about their future which inevitably will be engendered in the minds of their directors.

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What other reason, then, is there for bringing forward these proposals now? The answer surely is not that the Government are doing it because they feel bound to carry out all their election pledges? The party opposite have shown over so many matters that they are quite ready to throw over those pledges when they think it is wise to do so. Indeed, the Prime Minister told us, I think it was during the last Parliament, that in his opinion items in the election programme of a party could be disregarded without loss of honour, if and when that party is elected to power.
Are these proposals put before the House today because it has been shown that nationalisation has in any way damaged the industry, or is likely to damage it in the near future; or that nationalisation has resulted in any falling off of output; in inadequate development; in difficulties of finance or any other inconvenience whatsoever? If so, let us be told about it. In fact, there has been no evidence supporting that contention from anybody, including the Minister, during the whole course of this debate. We are therefore bound to assume what, in fact, we believe to be true, that all the evidence shows how well the industry is doing today.
I am not suggesting that that is entirely due to public ownership; of course it is not. But I do suggest that the prosperity of the industry today is in no way handicapped, and in many ways I believe it is helped, by the unifying Act which was passed in 1949 and which has brought about very considerable benefits in organisation, in the purchasing of raw materials, in saving interest at the banks and in many other ways. There is plenty of evidence which can be produced to show the beneficial effect of nationalisation; none has been produced to show it has had any harmful effect.
Again, therefore, I ask, why disrupt the industry, as is proposed, when it can be shown that nationalisation has never had a harmful effect? One is bound to ask is one motive for de-nationalising the industry—an undisclosed motive—because of the desire of the Tory Party to transfer from public to certain limited private hands the considerable profits which this industry is making today? They were £34,500,000 profits in the first seven months of the Corporation's existence,
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after making a special allowance for depreciation of £5 million.
No doubt, the Parliamentary Secretary will deny that that motive, disclosed or undisclosed, lay behind the Government's decision to bring these proposals before us. Let me warn the right hon. Gentleman that, if he does deny it, we will not believe him, because, although we have the highest regard for him, and we believe that he is sincere and pure in mind, we know that, behind the Government in this matter, are the steelmasters and Steel House, and we know that their motives are not always altruistic.
Then, of course, there may be the other motive—the only other one I can think of—which has impelled the Government to bring forward these proposals to disturb the steel industry. That is the irrational prejudice of the party opposite against any form of public ownership of industry whatever. We have heard these views expressed today by a number of speakers on the other side of the House. They say that it means a centralised bureaucracy and all the rest.
Without going into the argument in detail, which we have not got time to do today, it is quite clear that they have no case whatever, because the fact is that many of the most successful industries in this country—such as I.C.I. and Unilever—are operated from a central bureaucracy, and operated very effectively indeed, and many fine and magnificent enterprises are operated most successfully by Government Departments themselves.
I do not want to labour the analogy, but I would remind the House that today we have heard from the Prime Minister words of praise about the magnificent achievement of British scientists and technicians in developing our own atomic energy project in the last few years. The whole of that business was done under a Government Department. It was done by scientists and technicians, people who need to have freedom and liberty and initiative to operate properly, and it was done under facilities, directions and guidance afforded by a Government Department, operating under Civil Service conditions and with the red tape and all the other things which hon. Gentlemen opposite like to talk about. Yet it was done exceedingly successfully.

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But, of course, this great enterprise we are talking about today—the steel industry—is not going to be run, and is not being run, under a Government Department, but by a Corporation based entirely on commercial lines and acting in a commercial way. In case anybody should make the mistake which the Prime Minister made when he spoke of the road haulage industry and talked about an overhead staff of 12,000 people, let me remind the House that the number of people working in the Corporation is 61.
I now propose to summarise the essential differences in principle and approach between the scheme contained in the Iron and Steel Act, in which we believe, and the proposals set out in the White Paper, in which the Government believe, so that it may be clear, and the reasons may be clear, beyond any doubt to everybody, why we so strongly and so unshakably oppose the Government's present proposals.
The first and the most important difference is that the White Paper sets out to remove from the Government the authority that we believe is essential to ensure that this industry serves the public interest and the public interest alone, and, in particular, that the industry develops as it should do during the next few critical years. We believe that the pooling of raw materials, mining and ore handling facilities, the elimination of overlapping capacity, long-term planning and modernisation of the industry, the development of its maximum capacity with concentration of specific production in individual works, can be done effectively only if these activities are co-ordinated in a national programme under single ownership, which must be public ownership.
Today, about 98 per cent. of the entire output of the ingot steel of this country is produced by publicly-owned companies under the Corporation. These producers are subject in all matters of policy to the overall planning and direction of the Corporation which, in turn, is responsible to the Minister of Supply and Parliament. The Corporation's authority is complete as it is the sole owner of these companies.
Its organisation of the industry cannot be thwarted by the private interest of
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any group of shareholders or by the prejudices or obstinacy of the directors of any company. The ultimate authority of the Corporation under Parliamentary control is therefore absolute, and we say it should be so. But all this will, of course, be changed if the White Paper proposals ever become embodied in an Act of Parliament. Then neither the Board nor the Minister would have any authority over the industry at all, apart from certain negative powers. The Board will be able to restrain developments but not enforce them. It can say "Stop," but not "Go." It can act as a brake, but not as an accelerator.
The Minister may be able to fix prices, again a negative power which any Government must assume in a time of shortage, and this applies to the control of raw materials inside the industry when they are scarce. Finally, if the Minister thinks the industry is not taking adequate steps to obtain raw materials from abroad he can, under the proposals, duplicate the industry's buying agency, which appears to us quite ridiculous.
But, apart from this and the Minister's powers to undertake himself schemes of unprofitable capital development, the Board will be able to do nothing except supervise the industry.
Let us look at this supervision, because it is very important. First, it should be noted that in place of the 298 concerns which the Corporation now controls directly or indirectly, under the new setup, this supervision is to extend over 2,400 firms. The directors of some of these firms have protested vehemently. They have been asking what sort of Government this is. When they supported the Conservatives at the Election they believed they were going to do what they said they were going to do; set the people free and remove the shackles which fetter industry.
Now they are puzzled and do not know what has happened. They feel that they have been deceived and betrayed. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary this evening will explain to these people what has happened and why these new powers and regulations, negative as they are, are going to be placed on 2,000 firms which were previously free from them. If the right hon. Gentleman feels a bit shy about telling these firms why he has

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taken these steps, perhaps I can help him, and I would like to put forward this explanation.
I suggest he should tell them that the new controls the Government are imposing over their affairs are purely negative. The Government, it is true, will be able to stop them developing. Although most people think this is a very bad and pernicious control, it is the only form of control the Government could impose. They had to impose some control as a sort of political camouflage so as to be able to come forward and say, "After all, there is some form of supervision over this industry." They must ask these firms to accept this control, but in compensation there will be no positive controls. The Government forgoes the right to tell these firms to do anything they do not want to do or anything which the boards of directors may think contrary to the interests of the shareholders.
I say, therefore, that supervision under these proposals means nothing whatsoever except the exercise of certain negative controls under which the companies can be told they cannot do certain things. Otherwise the Board will only be able to look at the firms, to report, and to make recommendations perhaps. After the Board have made recommendations that, for example, certain amalgamations are necessary or that certain steps are necessary to improve the efficiency of the industry as a whole, there is no authority or power whatsoever to make any of those firms carry out any of those recommendations. Indeed, if the recommendations of the Board are such that they might militate against the interests of the shareholders of the companies, the directors not only have the right but the legal duty to resist the Board's recommendations in the interests of the shareholders whose investments they have to protect.
My next objection to the White Paper proposals is that they will split the industry into two, or may be three, pieces. It is not disputed that it will be exceedingly difficult to sell all of this industry to private enterprise. We cannot think, and indeed I do not believe any authority thinks, that it will be possible to do more than sell off a few of the more profitable units in the industry. Therefore, the industry is going to be split, not on functional grounds, but on the grounds of which units have the best profit prospects.
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We think it will be exceedingly bad to split the industry in this way, and particularly bad as it is bound to happen that the profitable modern plants will be those which will be more easily sold and will go into the hands of private enterprise, while the obsolete unprofitable plants will remain in the hands of the public and will probably remain a burden to the taxpayer.
It is possible that the industry will be split into three sections. It is possible that the Minister of Supply, under the powers he is taking, will be able to build a new plant of his own. I do not believe for a moment that that is likely. If Steel House said to the Government, "Do not build a new plant and expand the capacity of the industry—we think it is uncommercial to do so," it seems inconceivable to me that the Minister of Supply in a Conservative Government would build such a plant. If a Labour Government believed that it was desirable to expand the industry, to build new plant and make new developments, they would take other steps.
The next line of opposition to these proposals I had better put in the form of a question. How will the new industry—or that section of it which is going to be under private enterprise—possibly raise the £60 million a year that will be necessary for development during the next two or three years, quite apart from the £240,000,000 which will have to be raised to buy back the industry, without burdening the industry with an immensely high interest rate on preference shares or whatever security will be issued? We doubt if they can get the money. We doubt whether it will be available for investment in such amounts, and to the extent that it will be available it will only be at a high price which will militate against the development of the industry and, may even prevent it developing as it should.
I now come to my last point, and it is an elaboration of my first. Government spokesmen have said today and on other occasions that they want to take the steel industry out of politics. I am sure they are sincere when they say that, and I am sure it is in conformity with all the advice they get from Government Departments and from the leaders of the steel industry. A number of significant statements have

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been made on this matter by leaders of the Government.
The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply today said that he thought these proposals were a fair basis for a workable solution of the steel problem. When the matter was discussed during the debate on the Gracious Speech he said that we have only got to nationalise, de-nationalise and re-nationalise an industry often enough and there would be very little left; and he hoped that he would be able to put forward a scheme which would give confidence that would be lasting.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he spoke in the economic debate just before the Recess, seemed to go out of his way to make a similar reference to the White Paper proposals. On 29th July he appealed for
"constructive criticism and for proposals to be put forward designed to effect a lasting and accepted national settlement of the future of this great industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th July, 1952; Vol. 504, c. 1282.]
Let me now say to him and to the Government that if they think a lasting and acceptable settlement is possible on the basis of these White Paper proposals, they are living in a world of fantasy. How could we, with our unshakeable belief that the basic industries of our country must be under effective Parliamentary control and authority, and be run solely for the benefit of the nation, do nothing but regard this White Paper with unmitigated hostility? I go further and ask how any unprejudiced person, whatever his political faith, can consider these present proposals, which split the industry in the way I have just described, as anything but objectionable.
We are as anxious as anybody in the House to remove uncertainty from the minds of all those who work in this great industry, and particularly those who manage and lead it. We want them to get on, unmolested, with their job of making the steel in the quantity, of the quality and at the prices the nation requires. But now to change the structure which has been set up, which we believe was basically right, which was working effectively, and to put these half-baked proposals into effect, we think is a ridiculous thing to do, and cannot possibly have our support.
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I therefore say to the Government that, so far from these proposals being acceptable, they are wholly unacceptable. They are not a settlement. They are a call to battle. They contemptuously flout the principles in which Her Majesty's Government and half the nation believe. They go against the tide of history, and are bound sooner or later to be washed away.
I finally say to the right hon. Gentleman and the Government: Take this ridiculous White Paper back. If they proceed they risk bringing about those disastrous consequences about which the Minister so correctly warned us a little time ago. We ask the Government to take this White Paper away, to tear it up, and to think again—to think free from political prejudice and the vested interest of Steel House. [Interruption.] I will repeat that, as apparently it received a welcome from hon. Members opposite. I ask them to think again free from political prejudice and the vested interests of Steel House. I ask them to think intelligently and think nationally.
9.33 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. A. R. W. Low): The right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) noticeably warmed to his task as he got off the subject of the White Paper and on to the matter of political prejudices. I should like to deal with some of the more important practical questions which are raised in the White Paper, and which have been raised in the debate, and during the course of what I have to say I hope that I shall be able to answer the specific points the right hon. Gentleman put.
Before I leave him, I should like to correct a misunderstanding that he may have created in the House on two occasions, first when dealing with the powers available to himself and Sir Archibald Forbes' Board, and secondly, when he was trying to contrast the present position of some of the firms conducting the activities which will come under the Board with their position under that Board.
He tried to convey the impression that when he held the appointment of Minister of Supply he had no powers over the steel industry. The great planning Government, it seems, had no powers to control the steel industry at all. Of course, exactly the opposite was the case.

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At the time of the Forbes Board, the right hon. Gentleman had complete powers over the distribution of raw materials and the allocation of steel for most of the time. He had control over capital investment; he had price control; and he called for statistics from all the firms in the steel industry.
I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) fell into the same error—if I may respectfully accuse him of falling into error—when he implied, using the same argument, that the public supervision of the Board would impose completely new controls on various parts of industry—controls which they had never had before. Quite apart from the fact that neither right hon. Gentlemen seem to be able to distinguish between supervision, on the one hand, and detailed control on the other, I am sure that the House will agree with my rendering of the situation, and will agree that both right hon. Gentlemen, no doubt inadvertently, have misled us.
I noticed in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall that he never at any point dealt with the very cogent argument which my right hon. Friend used at the beginning of his speech, describing the disadvantages of the present set-up. Not for one moment did he deal with that matter. May I now turn to the rest of the debate?
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South was in very good humour. I think that those of us who have looked at the tape know one of the reasons why he was in good humour.—[Interruption.] I am asked to look after my own business, but I did notice that the right hon. Gentleman was in such good humour that he gave the Tory Party a lesson in looking after their business, so I do not see any reason why I should not counter him. The right hon. Gentleman was in such good humour that he rarely referred to the White Paper at all. On the one occasion that he did so, he had clearly misunderstood paragraphs 12 to 14, and I think that my right hon. Friend put him right.
But he did, of course, deal, as other hon. Members have dealt, with the major difference there is between the two sides of the House upon the question of ownership. It appears from the arguments put
1394
forward today that one of the Opposition's complaints about the Government proposals is that ownership in the future will be divided. We aim at a society in which ownership is divided and dispersed, and we see positive advantages in that form of society. I was interested to read in a recent publication that there are others who think in the same way. This is what has been written.
"The main task of Socialism"—
this is a Socialist writing—
"today is to prevent the concentration of power in the hands of either industrial management or of State bureaucracy; in brief to distribute responsibility and so to enlarge freedom of choice. This task was not even begun by the Labour Party."
The writer of that is the hon. Gentleman the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). On the other hand, we see a great disadvantage in the division of the power of supervision which is present in the present structure. We want to see one comprehensive supervising authority, and that is one of the main principles behind our proposals in the White Paper.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South gave what, I think, was a slightly inaccurate account of production today. He first of all indicated that the increase of iron and steel production in this country since the war was less than that which had taken place in the U.S.A. In actual fact the percentage increase is exactly the same, but what happened was that during the war the United States of America was able to expand its steel production enormously, much to the advantage of this country and other free nations. The right hon. Gentleman appeared in the course of that argument to be pointing to the merits of free enterprise.
The right hon. Gentleman also used the argument that production had increased during the last 12 months in this country. That is true, and we are glad of it, but it is also true, unfortunately, that the total production this year so far has not yet reached the level of 1950. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Those are the facts. The reasons are well known to hon. Members and I do not think I need repeat them. I am making no points either for or against nationalisation. I am correcting any misapprehensions about the right hon. Gentleman's statement of facts, which was not wholly complete.

1395
On the question of supplies, the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones), whose interventions in these debates we always enjoy, certainly on this side of the House, attacked the Prime Minister's arrangements for the purchase of steel from the United States of America.
Mr. Jack Jones: I did.
Mr. Low: The hon. Member seemed to think that the steel which had been bought from the United States of America was no good to the steel industry.
Mr. Jones: I did not say that. I said that it was of a quality which I myself would have been ashamed to produce and that when I questioned its quality with a leading industrialist in charge of one of the biggest firms in my constituency he said, "Well, after all, Jack, we are short of scrap."
Mr. Low: We still enjoy the hon. Gentleman's interventions. His second point—he has made it before—was that it would have been better to import the raw material.
Mr. Jones: We should have paid less for it.
Mr. Low: The choice was not there. However, I will tell the hon. Gentleman that of the imports 150,000 tons were pig-iron and scrap which were raw materials for the industry in his part of the world, and of the balance one-third was ingots which were also raw materials for the industry in his part of the world and another third was semi-finished, also a raw material for a large part of the industry in his part of the world. I would also add that the agreement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was able to make has played a great part in enabling so many people to be employed in the engineering industry this year.
Mr. Jones: It could have been made in England
Mr. Low: There has been a good deal of discussion about development. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South gave a somewhat distorted account of the history of development in the iron and steel industry I am particularly concerned with some of the points which have been
1396
made about the success of the iron and steel industry in expanding its plant since the end of the war.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall seemed to be making a serious charge against the steel industry for not having done all that it ought to have done and all that it said it would do in its 1945 plan. The facts are, as the right hon. Gentleman said and as the Corporation's Report says, that some of the schemes included in that programme had not been started by the time the Corporation took over, but the Corporation's Report added that, although in some cases other schemes had been extended as alternatives, technical development, such as the introduction of more ore preparation plants, which saved iron ore and coke, had resulted in some changes in the plan. The reasons for the postponement or alteration of some of the larger schemes are given in the Corporation's Report.
Despite these alterations, the fact is that production today is running ahead of the plans made in the 1945 Report, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that perfectly well. The aim then was a steel-making capacity of 16 million tons. Production is now running at over 16 million tons a year.
Mr. Jones: Then leave it alone.
Mr. Low: Production was running at over 16 million tons a year before nationalisation. The total capacity of the industry, given more scrap, is about 18 million tons. They aimed at a capacity for steelmaking pig iron of over 9 million tons; they are now producing pig iron at 10½ million tons per annum in all, of which about 9 million tons goes to steel making.
The question is, could more have been done? All the evidence seems to show that the utmost was done during that time, and I should like to call evidence in support from a Report which the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) referred to a little while ago, the Iron and Steel Productivity Report, signed incidentally by five trade unionists. In the Report the following remark is made:
"The British Iron and Steel industry has since 1945 been engaged on a construction programme to the full extent of the resources available to the plant manufacturers."

1397
Is not that evidence that everything was done that could have been done? The right hon. Gentleman ought also to know that sufficient coking coal had to be available to make these new schemes worth while, and he also knows there were general capital investment considerations affecting everybody at that time.
That, I think, disposes of the points raised in connection with actual development, but the argument has been made across the Floor of the House about the positive development powers included in the Government's proposals. It was said previously by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall that there is frequently a conflict between the interests of private owners in the steel industry and the national interests. When most people say that, they are referring primarily to the fact that it is in the interest of the private owner of an iron-making or steel-making company that the firm should make a profit and that it may be in the interest of the nation that an unprofitable venture should be started for some reason or another.
But in the course of the argument those people omit to say that it is also in the national interest generally for a host of reasons that the industry should be profitable—in order to replace their plant and to pay their pittance or large amount to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But it may be for strategic or for other national reasons that the Government might think it desirable to have a new plant erected or indeed to keep an old plant going when the industry, having examined this project very carefully, considered it uneconomical and impracticable to finance.
This will be very rare, but an example was given by my right hon. Friend of the case of a strategic development, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall knows that the Government have for some time had power to give capital assistance for strategic or defence reasons, because that power was in the Ministry of Supply under his control. This is no new point, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Summers) said, when there is development for strategic reasons which is uneconomic and uncommercial, that is a proper thing for the Government to look after.
1398
It appears, moreover, that the previous Government did not contemplate telling the Corporation by direction that they should build uneconomic plants. Indeed, it is clear from a study of the Act that, except in one case concerning the Consumers' Council set out in Section 6, the Minister had no power to give the Corporation such a direction. There ought to be nothing in our proposals in this respect which should surprise the Opposition. Their surprise is synthetic.
It is, however, sometimes argued that the granting of power of this sort to the Government might encourage industry to refuse to take risks and therefore be restrictive in their development proposals. This is a serious argument. It is our opinion that our solution of this problem will have exactly the opposite effect. It really is not likely that a privately owned and managed steel industry will want to have the Government setting up and controlling plants and entering into production. In case of a difference of opinion of the kind contemplated, there will be a strong incentive for the industry to adopt for themselves any proposal of this kind made to them. They will only refuse to do so if the scheme seems wholly uncommercial from their point of view.
If that is their decision, and they turn out to be right, nobody will argue that they ought to have taken the wrong risk. If they turn out to be wrong and the Government's scheme is profitable, the Government will have the profits and the industry will have learned their lesson. The truth is that this is a case where one public interest is conflicting with another. It is a case very suitable for public supervision. We are convinced that our proposals containing the machinery by which any conflict that may arise can be solved.
With further reference to development matters, the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman) who, as usual made a grossly unwarranted attack upon my right hon. Friend in connection with the Corporation and other matters, referred to the development of iron ore in Sierra Leone. In fact, all he had to say was a direct attack upon his own right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall for not intervening. If, on the other hand I misunderstood him and he is now appealing that we should try to

1399
nationalise iron ore in overseas countries, I must say it is a very surprising policy which the Opposition Front Bench have never suggested so far.
Mr. Edelman: Is it not the point that here was a company in Sierra Leone which was owned by the British Government and financed by the Colonial Development Corporation, but none the less was selling essentially needed iron ore to the United States and Germany at a time when we were short of iron ore in this country? Is it not further the case that it was the advice of the then chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation that this company should be brought within the ambit of nationalisation and not left outside, for private profit?
Mr. Low: I heard all that. The hon. Gentleman is knocking at the wrong door in this matter. I would refer to some points——
Mr. Edelman Mr. Edelman rose——
Mr. Low: —important points, made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade).
Mr. Edelman: On a point of order. I have been charged with inaccuracy by the hon. Gentleman who is addressing the House and now, when I rise to address myself to the questions he has asked, he declined to give way. Is that in accordance with the traditions of this House?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman made one intervention, which was quite proper. At this time of night it is usual to allow the Minister to finish.
Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas: On a point of order. Is it in order for the Minister to make a statement, to assume that the statement is correct by drawing conclusions from it, and, although the statement is immediately controverted by the hon. Member whom he has misquoted, to continue his speech?
Mr. Speaker: There is no point of order in that. There is merely a difference of opinion.
Mr. Thomas: Further to that point of order——
Mr. Speaker: There was no point of order in what the hon. Gentleman said.
Mr. Low: I was about to answer some important points put to me. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I have answered twice, but I will answer again and say that the hon. Gentleman was talking about things that happened in the time of the right hon. Gentleman and I am not concerned with that. I was trying to deal with the important points put by the Liberal Party spokesman today. Those points related in particular to the Board's powers of price fixing. Those points were also covered by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West (Mr. Simon) in his interesting speech when he referred to the importance of competition even though prices are controlled.
Let me answer two specific points. The first relates to the powers of the Minister over levies. The Minister has the power to sanction levies and that is set out in the White Paper. The second point related to whether the Board would have power to bar new entrants into the industry. Of course the Board will not have power to bar new entrants into the industry. The third point related to the question whether the Board would so fix prices that uneconomic plant was kept in operation. Their prices in general will be fixed in relation to the average good economic plants.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall in the course of his argument stated that the supervision powers of the Board would not be effective. That was the burden of his argument. The burden of the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South was that they would be so effective that they would interfere with private enterprise. They cannot have it both ways. Of course, the right hon. Member for Vauxhall does not appreciate the co-operation which industry has shown in its partnership with the Government in industrial affairs. Yet he had plenty of it, and he should pay tribute to industrial leaders both in the iron and steel industry and in other industries. It is a fact, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) said in the course of his valuable speech, that over the last 15 to 20 years the leaders of the steel industry have shown a spirit of trusteeship for the interests of the nation.
As we come to the end of this debate, I must remind the House of the principles

1401
behind the White Paper proposals on which we shall be voting in a minute. We on this side of the House say that this is a basic national industry and that there must be public supervision of it. If there is to be satisfactory public supervision, that supervision must be comprehensive. That comprehensive supervision is best carried out by a board that has not got ownership responsibilities. [HON MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The Iron and Steel Board will have nothing to do with ownership or transfer of ownership.
We believe that with dispersed ownership there can be that bigger and competitive
power in the industry which will look after the needs of the engineering industries and our exports and our defence, and we have confidence that once they have been studied, and once there has been experience of them, these proposals will be treated by the country and, indeed, eventually by hon. and right hon. Members opposite as a lasting settlement.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 303; Noes, 269.

Division No. 243.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Aitken, W. T.

Crouch, R. F.

Hirst, Geoffrey

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Alport, C. J. M.

Crowder, Petra (Ruislip—Northwood)

Hollis, M. C.

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Cuthbert, W. N.

Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

Holt, A. F.

Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

Davidson, Viscountess

Hope, Lord John

Arbuthnot, John

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

De la Bère, Sir Rupert

Horobin, I. M.

Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton)

Deedes, W. F.

Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

Baker, P. A. D.

Digby, S. Wingfield

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Howard, Greville (St. Ives)

Baldwin, A. E.

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

Banks, Col. C.

Donner, P. W.

Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

Barber, Anthony

Doughty, C. J. A.

Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

Barlow, Sir John

Drayson, G. B.

Hurd, A. R.

Baxter, A. B.

Drewe, C.

Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

Beach, Maj. Hicks

Dugdale, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

Beamish, Maj. Tufton

Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

Duthie, W. S.

Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M.

Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston)

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Bennett, William (Woodside)

Erroll, F. J.

Jennings, R.

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Fell, A.

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Birch, Nigel

Finlay, Graeme

Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

Bishop, F. P.

Fisher, Nigel

Jones, A. (Hall Green)

Black, C. W.

Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Fort, R.

Kaberry, D.

Bossom, A. C.

Foster, John

Keeling, Sir Edward

Bowen, E. R.

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

Lambert, Hon. G.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Galbraith Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

Lambton, Viscount

Braine, B. R.

Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

Gammans, L. D.

Langford Holt, J. A.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N. W.)

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Law Rt. Hon. R. K.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Glyn, Sir Ralph

Leather E. H. C.

Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

Godber, J. B.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Brooman-White R. C.

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)

Browne, Jack (Govan)

Gough, C. F. H.

Leunox-Boyd, Rt. Hon A. T.

Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

Gower, H. R.

Lindsay, Martin

Bullard, D. G.

Graham, Sir Fergus

Linstead, H. N.

Bullock, Capt. M.

Gridley, Sir Arnold

Llewellyn, D. T.

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Grimond, J.

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

Burden, F. F. A.

Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Lookwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

Hare, Hon. J. H.

Longden, Gilbert (Herts S. W.)

Carson, Hon. E.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

Low, A. R. W.

Cary, Sir Robert

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Channon, H.

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

Harvie-Watt, Sir George

McAdden, S. J.

Cole, Norman

Hay, John

McCallum Major D.

Colegate, W. A.

Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Heald, Sir Lionel

Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)

Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Higgs, J. M. C.

McKibbin, A. J.

Cranborne, Viscount

Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Maclean, Fitzroy

Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

Summers, G. S.

MacLead, John (Ross and Cromarty)

Powell, J. Enoch

Sutcliffe, H.

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

Macpherson, Maj. Niall (Dumfries)

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Raikes, H. V.

Teeling, W.

Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

Rayner, Brig. R.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

Redmayne, M.

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Markham, Major S. F.

Remnant, Hon. P.

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Renton, D. L. M.

Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

Marples, A. E.

Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

Robertson, Sir David

Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Tilney, John

Maude, Angus

Robson-Brown, W.

Touche, Sir Gordon

Maudling, R.

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Turner, H. F. L.

Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

Roper, Sir Harold

Turton, R. H.

Medlicott, Brig. F.

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Mellor, Sir John

Russell, R. S.

Vane, W. M. F.

Molson, A. H. E.

Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Vesper, D. F.

Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

Wade, D. W.

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone)

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Scott, R. Donald

Walker-Smith, D. C.

Nicholls, Harmar

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

Shepherd, William

Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

Nield, Basil (Chester)

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

Watkinson, H. A.

Nugent, G. R. H.

Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

Nutting, Anthony

Snadden, W. McN.

Wellwood, W.

Oakshott, H. D.

Soames, Capt. C.

White, Baker (Canterbury)

Odey, G. W.

Spearman, A. C. M.

Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

Speir, R. M.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare)

Stevens, G. P.

Wills, G.

Osborne, C.

Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Partridge, E.

Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

Wood, Hon. R.

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

York, C.

Perkins, W. R. D.

Storey, S.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Peyton, J. W. W.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

Mr. Heath and Mr. Butcher.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Studholme, H. G.

NOES

Adams, Richard

Clunie, J.

Forman, J. C.

Albu, A. H.

Coldrick, W.

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

Collick, P. H.

Freeman, John (Watford)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

Cove, W. G.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Gibson, C. W.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Crosland, C. A. R.

Glanville, James

Awbery, S. S.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Gooch, E. G.

Bacon, Miss Alice

Cullen, Mrs. A.

Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Baird, J.

Daines, P.

Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

Balfour, A.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

Bartley, P.

Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.)

Grey, C. F.

Bence, C. R.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Benn, Wedgwood

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Benson, G.

Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

Griffiths, William (Exchange)

Beswick, F.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Deer, G.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Bing, G. H. C.

Delargy, H. J.

Hall, John (Gateshead, W.)

Blackburn, F.

Dodds, N. N.

Hamilton, W. W.

Blyton, W. R.

Donnelly, D. L.

Hannan, W.

Boardman, H.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Hardy, E. A.

Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

Hargreaves, A.

Bowden, H. W.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

Bowles, F. G.

Edelman, M.

Hastings, S.

Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

Edwards, John (Brighouse)

Hayman, F. H.

Brockway, A. F.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)

Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

Herbison, Miss M.

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

Hobson, C. R.

Burke, W. A.

Ewart, R.

Holman, P.

Burton, Miss F. E.

Fernyhough, E.

Houghton, Douglas

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

Field, W. J.

Hubbard, T. F.

Callaghan, L. J.

Fienburgh, W.

Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Finch, H. J.

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Champion, A. J.

Follick, M.

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Chetwynd, G. R.

Foot, M. M.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Moyle, A.

Soskice, Rt. Hon Sir Frank

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Mulley, F. W.

Sparks, J. A.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Murray, J. D.

Steele, T.

Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

Nally, W.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Janner, B.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

O'Brien, T.

Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

Jeger, George (Goole)

Oldfield, W. H.

Stross, Dr. Barnett

Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Paneras, S.)

Oliver, G. H.

Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

Orbach, M.

Swingler, S. T.

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Oswald, T.

Sylvester, G. O.

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Padley, W. E.

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Jones, David (Hartlepool)

Paget, R. T.

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Pannell, Charles

Thomas, David (Aberdare)

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Pargiter, G. A.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Keenan, W.

Parker, J.

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Kenyon, C.

Paton, J.

Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Peart, T. F.

Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

King, Dr. H. M.

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Kinley, J.

Poole, C. C.

Thurtle, Ernest

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Pupplewell, E.

Timmons, J.

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Porter, G.

Tomney, F.

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

Prector, W. T.

Viant, S. P.

Lewis, Arthur

Pryde, D. J.

Wallace, H. W.

Lindgren, G. S.

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Rankin, John

Weitzman, D.

Logan, D. G.

Reeves, J.

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

MacColl, J. E.

Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

Wells, William (Walsall)

McGhee, H. G.

Reid, William (Camlachie)

West, D. G.

McInnes, J.

Rhodes, H.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Richards, R.

White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

McLeavy, F.

Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)

McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Wigg, George

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersheld, E.)

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Wilkins, W. A.

Mann, Mrs Jean

Ross, William

Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)

Manuel, A. C.

Royle, C.

Williams, David (Neath)

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Schofield, S. (Barnsley)

Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

Mayhew, C. P.

Shackleton, E. A. A.

Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

Mellish, R. J.

Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

Messer, F.

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

Mikardo, Ian

Short, E. W.

Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

Mitchison, G. R.

Shurmer, P. L. E.

Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

Monslow, W.

Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Moody, A. S.

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Yates, V. F.

Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

Morley, R.

Slater, J.

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

Mr. Pearson and Mr. Holmes.

Mort, D. L.

Snow, J. W.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this House approves the policy of Her Majesty's Government in regard to the Iron and Steel Industry as set out in Command Paper No. 8619.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  ELECTORS' LISTS (NORTHERN IRELAND)
  10.11 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): I beg to move,
  That the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations, 1952, dated 16th July, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 17th July, be approved.
  These Regulations relate to the manner of publishing electors' lists which are required for the preparation of the register for elections to this House in Northern Ireland. Most hon. Members are no doubt familiar with the process of preparing the register. This process has been on the same general lines in Northern Ireland as in Great Britain.
  In the first place, provisional lists are published. These show the names proposed to be included in the forthcoming register. There is then an opportunity for claims and objections. The registration officer revises the lists in the light of the claims and objections received and forms them into the new register for publication in due course.
  The manner of publishing these provisional lists, with which we are familiar in Great Britain, and which was in use for many years before the war, is that they are published in the form of three lists, A, B, and C. List A is a copy of the register in force. List B is a list of names to be added to that old register to make the new register; and List C is a list of the names to be omitted from the current register.
  This is the manner of publication of the provisional lists in force in Great Britain. It is also that prescribed by Regulations made in 1950 for the publication of similar lists in Northern Ireland. There is, however, a complication and difficulty in Northern Ireland arising from the fact that the register is also required for elections to the Parliament of Northern Ireland and for local government elections there.
  This complication lies in two circumstances. In the first place, under Northern Ireland legislation a new list for the Ulster Parliament and local government elections is only prepared in every third year. This year, 1952, is
  1408
  such a year. In 1952, therefore, the register is a combined register. In 1953 and 1954 the register will be published for the purpose of elections to this House alone. There will be no new register for the purpose of elections to the Ulster Parliament and local government elections there. Meantime the 1952 register will remain in force for internal purposes in Northern Ireland until 1955 when a new combined register will appear.
  The second complication lies in the circumstance that the qualifications for voting in elections to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and particularly for local government elections in Northern Ireland, are not the same qualifications as those for voting in elections to this House. Consequently the combined register contains a good many names of persons who are qualified to vote in Northern Ireland elections, but not in elections to this House; and also conversely, people entitled to vote in elections to this House but not in some, or all, of the Northern Ireland elections. In other words, the combined register differs substantially from a register prepared for elections to this House alone.
  I think the House will appreciate the kind of difficulties which have arisen. Perhaps the most obvious is the fact that a register prepared for elections to this House alone does not make a suitable list A for the preparation of a combined register. The other two lists, B and C—additions and omissions—would be too voluminous altogether. Moreover, the combined register must show for what purpose an individual is qualified to vote, whereas the single purpose register need not. I do not think I need enlarge on the complexities involved in that.
  The difficulty I have just described is covered by existing Regulations which provide that for the combined register there shall be a single electors' list in the form of a draft register. Although the difficulty is less great than that which I have described, it is nevertheless considerable in going from a combined register to a single purpose register. It is therefore desirable to provide that in the year following the publication of the combined register the electors' list should again be a single list in the form of a draft register, instead of the list A, B, and C method. That is the first thing which these Regulations do.

  1409
  If that were all however, we should have the situation that in two years out of three electors' lists in Northern Ireland would be a single list in the form of a draft register, but in the third year there would be the three lists A, B and C. We feel that this would be unsatisfactory and confusing to the electors. It would be far better to have the electors' lists published in the same manner every year instead of twice the same and once different. Accordingly, these Regulations provide that in every year there will only be one electors' list which will take the form of a draft register.
  These are the technical reasons, which I have tried to explain to the House as shortly as I can, leading to the change to be made by these Regulations. The change will however be helpful to the electors, because an elector who wishes to see whether his name is to be included in the forthcoming register will have to examine only one document instead of two, or sometimes even three.
  The other provisions of the Regulations are consequential. There is more printing work involved in printing a draft register than in printing lists A, B and C. Under the new arrangement more time will be required for printing, and the date of publication must be postponed. Accordingly, Regulation 2 of these Regulations provides that the latest date for publication of the electors' list shall be seven days later than under the 1950 Regulations.
  The effect of Regulations 3 and 5 is that the latest dates for making claims and objections will be three days later than the new dates which are thus already prescribed for the combined register; that is to say, the time allowed for claims and objections will be the same for the register for this House as for the combined register in the third year. I understand that, in practice, that time has been found sufficient by all concerned.
  I hope I have made this somewhat technical matter clear to the House.
  10.21 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Bing: I am sure everyone, on all sides of the House, is very grateful to the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department for trying to explain what is very largely inexplicable—the election arrangements that take place in Northern Ireland.
  1410
  I feel that, before the House deals with this particular Regulation—because, after all, it is our responsibility to decide whether we should pass this matter or not—we ought to look a little more closely at the provisions of the Elections and Franchise (Northern Ireland) Act, 1946, to which the Joint Under-Secretary has alluded, because whether or not we compile these lists in this way depends on which names go on which list.
  Though I spent a little time in studying this matter, I speak subject to be corrected by hon. Gentlemen who represent Northern Ireland constituencies, and I am glad to welcome them in actual debate in the House. We know that they enter the Lobbies, but we seldom have an opportunity of seeing them here. It is a pleasure and a privilege to have them with us in the House, and I hope we shall have some contribution from them.
  Subject, therefore, to any correction from the other side of the House, the difficulty in this matter is that there are three quite different systems of the right to vote in Northern Ireland. There is the first, which, without offence, I might call the democratic system, which is that enforced on Northern Ireland by this Parliament, and there is the other system which is enforced on Northern Ireland by the Conservative Administration which, unfortunately, they have had in that country for a considerable period of time.
  When we come to the question of how to compile these lists, we must remember very carefully—and I say this without any party spirit—the typically Conservative system of elections. If I take, first, the local government register, one of the difficulties with which one is concerned in the matter of local government elections is to know how many times an individual name should be entered. For example, the Lord Mayor of Londonderry—I speak in the presence of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Wellwood), who will correct me if I am wrong——
  Mr. Wellwood: May I correct the hon. and learned Gentleman now? He is not the Lord Mayor yet; I hope some day he will be.
  Mr. Bing: That seems to suggest that there is something very remiss with the capitalist system in Northern Ireland. Be

  1411
  that as it may, the gentleman who may become Lord Mayor has six or seven votes—I cannot recall the exact figure—but, almost next door to him is a building which is a convent housing 40 people, but there is only one vote for the local government register.
  In these circumstances, the House should sympathise with the Joint Under-Secretary in the problem he had to face concerning an electoral list which includes the mayor's name six or seven times and has an asterisk against the names of 40 other people explaining why they have only one vote. This naturally suggests a technical problem with which we must all sympathise. We are only dealing with technicalities. We cannot be concerned with the rightness or wrongness of the fact that 40 people are given one vote, while one person has six or seven votes.
  All we are concerned with is which is the cheaper list to print. That is all the House can consider at the moment, and I am only raising this method of making up the register so that the House may be in possession of all the facts and in a position to judge best how the record is made up. We are faced with merely a technical printing problem, and hon. Members will appreciate that all these repetitions are highly undesirable.
  Therefore, I would respectfully urge my hon. Friends on this side, if they think my arguments on the matter are good, to accept the proposals put forward in this Regulation. This is going to be an immense saving and is going to avoid all this deplorable duplication. It really is not necessary to print the local government lists so often. I quite agree with the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department. Why should these things be reproduced? There are very few names on them for local government elections. Only about half the people who are qualified to cast a vote here are entitled to cast a vote at all in Northern Ireland, and, so far as many people are concerned, they are entitled to cast a number of votes, not of course personally, but as representatives of limited companies.
  In Northern Ireland there is a beneficial provision which commends itself, I take it, to the hon. Gentleman because, after all, it was the same party which produced it. But, again, we are discussing whether or not it is desirable to do this.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. and learned Gentleman is quite right, we are not discussing that, and I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will follow his own maxim in the matter.
  Mr. Bing: The point I was trying to make in regard——
  Lieut.-Colonel H. M. Hyde: Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will give way for a moment to allow me to make a correction. I think he is under a misapprehension. No representative of a limited company in Northern Ireland is entitled to have a vote by reason of the fact that he represents a limited company.
  Mr. Bing: Not one vote, but six. Under the arrangement for local government elections in Northern Ireland a company can nominate six persons who can vote on behalf of the company. If we start putting these nominees into the ordinary list, the whole thing as the Joint Under-Secretary said, is going to get highly confused. The hon. Gentleman skated very lightly over the difficulties, and, perhaps, you think, Mr. Speaker, that he was not frank enough with the House and did not explain to them the difficulties which anyone faces who tries to compile a register in Northern Ireland.
  Voting with a mass of names would not be allowed under the democratic system, under the Imperial system of election which we have here, certainly not six votes, and why should we have this cluttering up of the list? I think the Joint Under-Secretary is perfectly right and I hope that just because this is a Northern Ireland matter none of my colleagues will be prejudiced against it. This is a scheme to untie and rationalise a highly irrational process. We are faced with quite a different system of election in Northern Ireland——
  Sir William Darling: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Bing: —elections which are decided not upon the basis of one man, one vote, but on the basis of property. The hon. Member says "Hear, hear." Exactly, I am glad that I appear to carry him with me on this matter. He has made a great study of Northern Ireland affairs.

  1413
  As the Joint Under-Secretary of State says, there are two quite different systems. One is a list composed on the basis of property, and the property value is represented by a series of names. The idea that one can combine with that a register dealing with people voting on a democratic basis is, of course, an absurdity. I am very glad that even hon. Gentlemen opposite realise this and have introduced this Regulation in order to deal with it.
  The whole matter could be solved if one were at liberty to suggest that there should be the same system of voting in Northern Ireland as there is in this country. That, of course, would be quite outside the terms of the Regulations which we are considering. We are considering the question of combining a register on an entirely undemocratic basis with one on a democratic basis, and the hon. Gentleman has not thought that it is a workable system. I think the whole House will be with him on this, and when we have the approval of these Regulations, I hope that it will be on the understanding that by approving the Regulations this House does not in any way approve the system out of which these Regulations arise.
  It would not be proper for me to make any comment on them at all now; otherwise this debate would go on for a very long time, and I think there is a number of hon. Members who would like to express themselves on this question. If one confines oneself to the narrow point of two lots of registers or one, we must all be with the Joint Under-Secretary. In those circumstances, I hope that the House will, after some consideration of this Northern Ireland issue, be willing to accept the Regulations which the Joint Under-Secretary has put before us.
  10.31 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smiles: I am sure that the House has been glad to listen to the lecture from the hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing). It is always a great pleasure to us to hear the remarks that he makes from time to time about Northern Ireland.
  The remarks he made tonight remind me of an occasion in our last Parliament when the present Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister sat in opposite places. Again and again the Leader of the Opposition complained
  1414
  that our Prime Minister attacked Socialist principles and Socialist policy. The policy in Northern Ireland, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, is Conservative. We are Conservatives there; we are Unionists there, and that is why we differ from these Regulations. I believe in Conservative principles.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman complains about people who run businesses having any vote. Let me remind him of the time when Napoleon said that England was a nation of shopkeepers. Napoleon was well beaten by that nation of shopkeepers. Over in Ireland we believe in hard work, thrift and running our businesses properly, and we see no reason at all why people who run those businesses should not have a vote to decide their affairs in the town in which they live.
  All the attack tonight has come from the hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch upon Conservative principles, and I, as the Member for Down, North, stand up for those principles in which I believe.
  10.33 p.m.
  Mr. Ede: I am quite sure that on this side of the House we welcome such a revelation of what Conservative principles are. It was said of the Bourbons that they learnt nothing and they forgot nothing, and they would have been worthy representatives of Down, North.
  We cannot alter the system in Northern Ireland. They have been given power to manage their own affairs, and it is fortunate for a large proportion of the population of Northern Ireland that this House has decided that as far as election to this House is concerned it shall be on democratic and not on Conservative principles.
  The only point that we have to deal with here is a mere question of machinery. I think it is better, if there is to be a varying franchise, that there shall be one register whenever it is possible to have only one register, so that there shall not be a mistake made when there is an election to this Parliament and, by mistake, one of the other registers gets into the polling booth as the basis for election to this House.
  We sincerely hope we can have an assurance that the marking on this single

  1415
  register shall be such as to make it quite clear who will have a vote for this House and that this will be the only register used for elections to this House, for very queer things happen in the course of elections in Northern Ireland. I recall what happened during the election for Belfast on the last occasion when there was an election for the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and the assaults that were committed on people other than Conservative candidates.
  Sir William Darling: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the elections in Northern Ireland were in any way corrupt?
  Mr. Ede: No, I was not dealing with corruption. Assault is not corruption, but it is an election offence.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I do not think corruption or assault arises on these Regulations.
  Mr. Ede: I should not have mentioned either subject but for the fact that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) interrupted me with a question.
  We also want an assurance that the cost of printing this register shall be fairly divided between the Imperial Exchequer and the Exchequer of Northern Ireland, for it is quite clear that we ought not to have to pay for the vagaries of the election law in Northern Ireland. In as much as additional printing is necessary it should be made quite clear that in addition to paying on the numbers of registers used we should also pay a proportionate cost of preparing the register for various purposes.
  As I understand, there are not merely two franchises involved but three. There is, I understand, one franchise for the Imperial Parliament, another for the Northern Ireland Parliament, and a third for local government elections in Northern Ireland. It is quite clear that
  1416
  what appears as a single register is a very complicated document. The complications are not caused by this country but by what happens on the other side of the water.
  I hope that the Under-Secretary will be able to give us an assurance that the cost will be equitably shared between the Imperial Exchequer and the Treasury of Northern Ireland on the basis of the comparative cost of the document when it is printed and published. I do not want to go beyond that in what I have to say tonight. To venture on any comment beyond what I have made on the subject of the franchise of Northern Ireland would probably be out of order and certainly would lead us to a very acrimonious debate. We can only welcome the fact that a descendant of the famous author of "Self-Help" lives up to the principle as far as the electoral opportunities in Northern Ireland are concerned.
  10.40 p.m.
  Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: With the leave of the House, I should like to answer the only point put to me which I think requires an answer. It was put by the right hon. Gentleman, who asked about the cost of the register. The position is not altogether simple, but I can give him some figures which I think will cover the point. The extra cost to Northern Ireland arising out of this order has been estimated to amount to not more than about £5,000 for each register. In the case of a combined register, one-third of the cost is borne by the Exchequer here, one-third by the Government of Northern Ireland and one-third by the local authorities. I think that that answers the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Resolved,
  That the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations, 1952, dated 16th July, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 17th July, be approved.

  CIVIL DEFENCE (CONTROL CENTRES)
  10.42 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): I beg to move,
  That the Draft Civil Defence (Appropriation of Lands and Buildings) Regulations, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 14th October, be approved.
  These Regulations, although in form perhaps as technical if not more technical than the last, are, fortunately, a little more simple in their effect. The effect is to expand the definition of civil defence functions in relation to Section 62 of the Civil Defence Act, 1939, so as to include functions imposed on local authorities by Regulations made by the Home Secretary under Section 2 of the Civil Defence Act, 1948.
  Section 62, the scope of which is thus widened, empowers a local authority, subject to the approval of the Home Secretary, to use without formal appropriation any lands or buildings owned by or leased to or controlled by them for the purpose of discharging their civil defence functions; or again, to allow another local authority to use such land for the purpose of the civil defence functions of that other local authority. These powers may be exercised notwithstanding the existence of anything to the contrary contained in any Act of Parliament or trust, or other restriction affecting the land or the buildings concerned.
  The purpose of these Regulations is to enable underground civil defence control centres to be built beneath public open spaces in the small number of places where no other site is available. It is from these control centres that local civil defence operations would be directed in war-time, and they are, of course, an important part of our defence preparations. A small number of local authorities in congested areas, principally in London, have found it impossible, either to find a site of any kind for a control centre, owing to the need for land for peace-time purposes, or else to find a site free from risk of the control centre being buried under the debric of neighbouring buildings in the event of a serious air raid, and the authorities in these areas see no alternative to building under public parks.
  I want to emphasise the word "under," because I realise that the House will, of
  1418
  course, be very apprehensive of any suggestion of taking public open spaces for any purpose at all. It is only for building under that these Regulations take powers. Once the building work is finished—it takes about six months—all that will appear above the surface will be the hood protecting the steps leading to the entrance, and the cowl over the air intake. Interference with amenities will be negligible. Hon. Members will remember that the hood at the entrance which could be seen in a number of open spaces during the last war could be so constructed as to be virtually invisible.
  The authorities themselves will be anxious to preserve their own amenities; but to make assurance doubly sure every authority which wishes to use powers under Section 2 will have to seek the prior approval of the Home Secretary, who will scrutinise the proposals carefully, in consultation with the Minister of Housing and Local Government, to see that there is no avoidable interference with open spaces.
  I hope the House will appreciate that everyone concerned will be interested to see that the least possible interference takes place, and that if there is interference it shall be negligible. I commend the Regulations to the House.
  10.46 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: I am sure that the House will be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his explanation of what the Regulations mean. I am glad he stressed the fact that the work, as I understand it, will be entirely underground. That is important. We recognise that control centres are of the greatest importance and must be established; but I should like to ask him to give some idea of the number of these control centres.
  Will there be dozens, scores, or hundreds? The hon. Gentleman mentioned particularly the London area. I can understand that, because the Metropolitan boroughs are the civil defence authorities, yet many of these parks and open spaces are owned and controlled by the county council, and that obviously gives rise to difficulties. Do these Regulations cover areas outside London? I see that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is here. Is Scotland affected?
  10.47 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: These Regulations, I understand, apply to Scotland. As they may affect Glasgow, and even Edinburgh, I should like to raise one or two points. These Regulations will lead to great expenditure. I am not objecting to that if it is necessary; but I think it will solace people if the buildings are to have some other use than a war use. Most people are distressed because so large a part of our national income has to be devoted to defence purposes. This part of it recalls what was done during the last war.
  Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I think the right hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. These Regulations are not taking power to erect additional buildings; they are merely taking power to put buildings already contemplated under existing arrangements in the parks. Therefore, there is no additional expenditure or building.
  Mr. Woodburn: I cannot see how buildings can be put in parks without expenditure. It will be strange if, at Glasgow Green, where there is nothing now, something is to be put without expense. How it will be put into the park without building is another remarkable achievement which I am unable to comprehend. It seems quite clear that what we are contemplating is an underground building, built in such places as Princes Street Gardens, Edinburgh, or Glasgow Green, or similar sites in London.
  I suggest that if these buildings are to be built in these circumstances they should not only have a war-time purpose. Everyone hopes war will not come, but surely we are not going to have a repetition of the wasteful construction which, unfortunately, took place in the last war. I have a guilty conscience myself on this score because I think a warning of mine was responsible for the erection of great concrete blocks round our coasts. Every time I saw them the waste of cement grieved me. I want an assurance that if these buildings are to be constructed they will have some other use as well, such as offices or garages.
  It may be that such an underground building could be constructed in Princes Street Gardens. An underground garage is needed in Edinburgh, especially when the Festival is in progress. If there has to
  1420
  be such a building in the centre of the city it should be built in such a way that it can be used as a garage which can take the cars off the streets during congested periods. If it is impossible to avoid this expense I hope that it will not be just a useless expense, and that some effort will be made to see that the buildings will have another practical use.
  10.52 p.m.
  Sir William Darling: I must endorse my countryman's plea for public economy. Is it contemplated that in Edinburgh, for example, in which I have a special interest, that these underground places will have a double utility? There are many public parks in the area of the new housing areas where the residents have found it difficult to accommodate their cars. They are not wealthy people, but business men who have to accommodate their small cars. Shelters in such public parks convenient to housing centres would be a day to day convenience and would be of use if the dark eventuality of war descended upon us.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) referred to Princes Street Gardens. When I was District Commissioner for South-East Scotland I pressed for the building of a tunnel in the neighbourhood of the Scott Monument to Waverley Market to provide shelter and temporary accommodation for motor cars. There are other devices of a similar character which I hope will be in the mind of my hon. Friend when he comes to advise local authorities. I am fully in agreement with the desirability of seeing that this expense is joined to a practical utility use as well as the ultimate possibility.
  Is the use of the Royal parks contemplated? Do the Regulations give power to use the Royal parks, because both in London and Edinburgh we have parks not belonging to the local authorities whose geographical situation is singularly suitable for this arrangement. We should not disparage their housing use, too, bearing in mind the use to which the bunker accommodation at Clapham Common was put during the Festival of Britain. We should have in mind a strong conception of the high cost of these buildings, and the need to get some usefulness out of them if possible, as well as developing them for the fear of war. I strongly associate myself with

  1421
  the right hon. Gentleman in the thoughts which he has expressed.
  10.55 p.m.
  Mr. James Hudson: I have listened with complete mystification and astonishment to the debate and the tone of a discussion which has reduced the issue before us to one of public economy. Public economy, if you please on operations which are to be arranged in the light of such an announcement as has been made in this House. Public economy when £100 million has been spent on working up to the dropping of one of the things against which the City of London must take its risks, as must all other cities in the country, if this bomb is put to the test.
  We are spending time discussing the provision, not of shelters for the mass of the people—I understand that is not the position at all—but for control centres for people who, unavailingly, although members of the Government may take a different view, will try to find some shelter and protection against the thing that threatens us all.
  The announcement made by the Prime Minister today has entirely altered all the debates that will in the future arise on the question of civil defence. We in London certainly live in a glass house, and we have been throwing stones in Australia. We have now to go through the same process that the Duke of Buckingham went through when there was a Scottish issue involved, and learn that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. We have let loose destructive forces against which no control centres are of any real influence in the problems that face us.
  I am not against any attempt to provide what we can provide—miserable though the arrangements are in comparison with the problem to be faced—and I tell my constituents so whenever possible. I am not prepared to leave them as I was left in the last war. Our predecessors in this House had then been talking for years about the kind of problem now before us, yet when war came masses of the people in London had no shelter of any sort at all. They found what shelter they could under their staircases while the bombs rained down. It will not be like that in the next war.
  The announcement made by the Prime Minister earlier today makes the situation
  1422
  intolerable. It is simply idiotic that we should be talking about public economy in the arrangements we are pretending to make for what is to happen. I live in an area where, in Hampstead Gardens, the cowls and staircases or the old buildings are objected to by many of the hon. Gentleman's constituents. They are there, and they may come in useful, one would think, for a few civil defence workers who feel themselves as helpless as I feel tonight as we talk about these things.
  I submit that the Government should have come to us with a much greater sense of warning. All of us are aware, as we talk about the provision of shelters or control centres underground, or about the flowers that we plant in the parks on top of these things to conceal them, that the dread reality cannot be concealed after today. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Drayson) has a lot of room in his constituency to spread people out. I am talking of my constituency and of the problems in London, and I know that the London people will be increasingly alive to the situation about which I am speaking. I rose only to say these few words because I felt utterly lost in listening to hon. Members on both sides talking about a situation which cannot be covered, even in the remotest degree, by the miserable provisions now before us.
  Mr. G. B. Drayson: Does the hon. Member wish for no protection whatever for the civilian population in his constituency?
  Mr. Hudson: If the hon. Gentleman had the slightest intelligence, he would have heard what I said, but he has not. He sat there with a grin on his face as I said that any provisions that could be made would be welcome, though I have no faith in them.
  Air Commodore A. V. Harvey: I listened with considerable interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Hudson), but I should have been more impressed by it if he had made it two years ago.
  Mr. Hudson: I have made this kind of speech for many years past.
  Air Commodore Harvey: I was referring to the speech which the hon. Gentleman has just made. If it had been made the day after the Soviet Union exploded the atomic bomb, it would have been very appropriate. The Prime Minister has

  1423
  given us information today which no other Power has given. Of course, we do not expect information like this from the Soviet Union, and the Government is dead right to make these plans and provisions. When the Soviet Union listens like the hon. Member has listened today, that will be the time to disarm, but, until then, I hope the Government will take every conceivable step to protect the people of Britain.
  11.3 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: These Regulations cover a very important public issue, and we have just heard enough to make the situation alarming. I want to follow up certain questions which were put to the Minister by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn).
  This matter vitally affects Scotland, and, at a time when public opinion in Scotland is greatly concerned about public expenditure, we are entitled to be told how much public expenditure is to be borne by the State and how much by the local authority. Exactly what proportion will be borne by each? If there is any substantial part of this sum to be borne by the local authorities, and it is to add to the very large burden already imposed upon them, then we feel considerable disquiet.
  When we hear about control centres to be built in the parks, we wonder how big these control centres are to be, and what they are to control. The right hon. Member for East Stirling and the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) spoke about Edinburgh and the possibility of immense excavation works which are to be carried out under Princes Street, Edinburgh. Is that sort of thing to apply to Glasgow? We have every reason to ask for detailed and careful answers because there are immense ramifications involved. Is there to be a control centre under Glasgow Green? I ask that because one has to remember that this is an area of a couple of square miles.
  Then, I would ask, how much is this control centre to cost? How much money is to come from the Secretary of State for Scotland, and how much from Glasgow Corporation? How much. under the Defence Regulations, is Glasgow called upon to pay? How much
  1424
  cement, and building material will be used? How many building workers are going to be taken away from Glasgow house building operations?
  If we are to do this thing in Glasgow—if there is to be this great mine underneath Glasgow—we should be given answers to such questions. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) spoke about the possibility of using the building for garages for motor cars. All I can say is that this will be a garage which will call for a considerable amount of public money, and the Secretary of State for Scotland, or one of his assistants who is here tonight, should say. without giving precise figures, what public expenditure is expected to be incurred and to what extent building materials and building labour are to be diverted from the problem of housing people who now live in the slums of Glasgow.
  If there is to be a vast excavation underneath Glasgow Green for a control centre, and the space used for the garaging of cars, there will be an outcry from the people in the dingy slums if there is to be precedence for motor cars.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air Commodore Harvey) has referred to the atom bomb, and I want to ask in what way are these Regulations, and those which appear later on the Order Paper, related to the tremendous and fearful possibility which the Prime Minister outlined to us today? Have they any connection at all? The Prime Minister talked of the dropping of the atom bomb, saying the experiment was necessary because of special concern for harbours. It had special reference to that. Well, London is a harbour, and so is Glasgow, and if we are to have an atom bomb dropped on Glasgow harbour, I would like to know what relevance these Regulations have to the tremendous problem which must now be in the forefront of our minds.
  These Regulations have, presumably, been thought out in relation to atom bomb attack, and now that we have been told of the awful effects of atomic bombing, with temperatures going up, and ships vapourising and disappearing from view——
  Sir Ian Fraser: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but are we are now to

  1425
  take courage and comfort from the thought that he is now supporting the re-armament provisions?
  Mr. Hughes: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to develop my speech, I will explain exactly what I mean.
  Sir I. Fraser: Could the hon. Gentleman answer that question?
  Mr. Hughes: I will certainly answer it before I sit down. I have made it perfectly clear that as far as I am concerned——
  Sir I. Fraser: The hon. Member was saying just now——
  Mr. Hughes: The hon. Gentleman will not let me answer. If the Government can convince me that there are any measures which will result in the safety and protection of the civilian population of our great cities, I will certainly support that. That has always been my position. But what I do not see is that because I say that, I am committed to support a re-armament programme which far from bringing this country any security at all is likely to make it the most insecure place in the whole universe.
  That is the lesson to be drawn from what the Prime Minister said today and of the Question I put to the Prime Minister yesterday. I am very glad to see that the military and strategical authorities are now beginning to think in terms of what may happen to this country and to our defenceless cities and to this defenceless island in the event of an atom bomb attack.
  Sir I. Fraser: May we assume that the hon. Gentleman is supporting the atom bomb experiment as well?
  Mr. Hughes: Certainly not. I think that the experiment, far from bringing greater security to this country, will bring greater danger. The hon. Gentleman need not think that these experiments with which our civil defence regulations are undoubtedly associated will only be read about in this country alone. I presume that the results of these atom bomb experiments will be very carefully studied in the Soviet Union, and if the Soviet Union are thinking in terms of attacks on harbours. which is what the Prime Minister was talking about today, then they will think about the possibility of attacks on our harbours.
  1426
  What rather mystified me was why these experiments were conducted in regard to harbours at all because this country's harbours are far more strategically important than Russia's, and the civilian populations round them are entitled to be more interested than Russia because she has comparatively few harbours at all. I cannot understand why these experiments, which are undoubtedly concerned with civil defence——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Though they may be concerned with civil defence they have nothing to do with Section 62 of the Civil Defence Act. 1939.
  Mr. Hughes: I am trying to keep within the bounds of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and also to answer the question put to me by the hon. Gentleman, because it is very relevant. I do not want to be accused of trying to avoid the question, but if I am out of order in following up that argument, possibly we shall be able to continue it another time, when I hope we shall have the opportunity of discussing the larger question.
  But, surely, if we have to prepare civil defence for all the people in this country who live around harbours, then in Glasgow, which is one of the biggest harbours in this country, we are entitled to know exactly what this is likely to mean. I would point out that in the case of Glasgow these control centres have to do much greater and more complicated and difficult work than those in London because round Glasgow is one of the most congested populations in the world. The last time a civil defence publicity campaign was carried out in Glasgow, the General responsible pointed out that if one atom bomb were dropped on Glasgow every hospital in the city would be put out of action and that quite possibly at least 250,000 people would be rendered homeless.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the Regulations he will see that they only expand the civil defence functions under the Section which I mentioned. To go into all these details is to go beyond the Regulations.
  Mr. Hughes: I am asking that these functions shall be clarified. I want to know whether the Minister will explain exactly what relevance this has, not merely to a comparatively small attack

  1427
  like we had in the last war but to the immense catastrophe that can come upon us if one atom bomb is dropped and a large, congested industrial city, with a teeming population, has to face this problem. We are entitled to more than a cursory putting off of the question by the Under-Secretary; we are entitled to have more precise details of what this control centre that we are asked to sanction is likely to be doing, what its cost is, who is to pay the cost, and in what way will it contribute to the security of the civilian population.
  11.17 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Jenkins: I listened with great interest to the speeches from the other side of the House——
  Mr. de Freitas: Some of them.
  Mr. Jenkins: I am obliged; some of them—and it seems to me that they really concentrate on saying this, "We do not really believe in civil defence because we feel there is nothing to avoid the dangers and destruction that will be brought about by the atom bomb." The reverse is the case. All the advice that has been received from those who know and who have made pilot studies over the last two or three years is that there is a defence against the atom bomb. The narrow point before us——
  Mr. J. Hudson: Was not that advice given——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. This debate is going very wide of the Regulation. I must ask the House to keep to the point.
  Mr. Jenkins: The narrow point that we are discussing tonight is the provision of control centres. If it is admitted that there is a defence against the atom bomb——
  Mr. Hudson: On a point of order. With reference to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and with great respect to it, is it not a fact that if the provision of control centres for civil defence is proved to be futile—and that is the only matter that we are discussing—I submit that it is reasonable to argue that we should reconsider the scope of the defence and the extent of the expenditure involved in the proposals now before us. Are they not affected in some way by a
  1428
  great revolutionary change in the factors which lead to the need for civil defence?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That may very well be, but we are considering quite narrow Regulations here, to expand the civil defence functions of Section 62, and I think that to go into all the possibilities of atom bomb destruction, and so forth, is more than we are expected to do.
  Mr. Jenkins: If it is admitted—and it is admitted—by the experts that there is a defence, then, of course the point that has been raised tonight by the Home Secretary in the Regulations which we are asked to confirm is very valid. Those of us who had something to do in the last war with civil defence—and I am not giving this as an illustration of what will happen next time with regard to control centres—know perfectly well that the control centre was the nerve centre of the whole of the civil defence organisation in the area. It is equivalent to battalion headquarters, where the orders are issued and instructions are received and reissued to deal with the situation.
  These are vital Regulations because over the last few years very little has been done for the protection of the civilian population by the provision of shelters. This is an attempt by the Government to see that the preparations for the defence of the civil population are being started. So long as a start is made confidence will be given to the population by the knowledge that the Government are doing something. For many years it has been a bone of contention among civil defence authorities that more has not been done. There are nearly a quarter of a million people who have voluntarily joined civil defence and they will be heartened to know that the Government have at last taken a definite step, involving great expenditure, in preparing a way for the future training and preparation of a civil defence organisation. Notwithstanding all the objections raised by some hon. Members opposite if one is not to disappoint the 250,000 volunteers one must do something. The vital thing is to start at the beginning, at the nerve centre, namely, the report centre. It is futile for hon. Members to try to oppose Regulations of this kind.
  As to the point raised by the right hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn), it is possible, no doubt, that the control centres could be used for other

  1429
  purposes. Before the last war many excellent proposals, unfortunately, never came to light. If deep shelters had been built in those days there would have been an opportunity to use them for garages and the like.
  A scheme was produced, too late to implement before the war. in which it would have been an economic proposition to have had that type of shelter. I am not sure, from my experience of civil defence, whether a report centre would be an appropriate place to put an underground garage because, necessarily, the centre would have to be broken into compartments. It would be well for the Home Secretary to consider, in any future plans he introduces, large underground shelters for the civil population.
  I am sorry to have delayed the House, but I feel that it is essential that the Regulations should be confirmed. I regret some of the speeches made on the other side of the House, because they may do great damage to the great voluntary organisation of men and women, totalling a quarter of a million, who are giving hours of service each week and who would be discouraged unless the House confirm these Regulations.
  11.23 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Henderson Stewart): I should have liked to enter into the wide discussion that has been raised by certain hon. Members, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but you have ruled that these Regulations concern a much narrower point. That is true.
  Section 62 of the Civil Defence Act, 1939, empowered local authorities to use, or allow another local authority to use for civil defence functions under the 1937 and 1939 Acts, land and buildings owned by or leased to them or under their—that is the local authority's—control. It is necessary to extend this particular power, as we propose, in these Regulations to cover the use of sites in public parks for civil defence control centres under the Civil Defence Act. That is all this does. It is done because in England, I understand, the provisions of certain public and private Acts would otherwise make it impossible for the local authorities to make sites available in public parks.
  Mr. Woodburn: This is a rather important point. Is this confined to public
  1430
  parks? For instance, the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins) mentioned that in the last war there were some plans to deal with this sort of thing which, unfortunately, were not carried out. I gather there was a plan to put something under Blytheswood Square in Glasgow and something under St. Andrew's Square in Edinburgh, because the entrance would be so easy, going straight in. They would provide rock without cement, and I wonder whether this would provide an opportunity as well as public parks.
  Mr. Stewart: I think the right hon. Gentleman is quite right. I used the word "parks" in the broad sense. I think it means open spaces. I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.
  That is all we are asking the House to approve tonight, just that very narrow point. It is a change in the interpretation of a couple of words in the Civil Defence Act. It is unlikely that many of the new control towers to be built in Scotland will be built in public parks, and no doubt has arisen about the powers of the local authorities in Scotland in cases where this has so far been proposed. The reason this applies to Scotland is that, while the need for the Regulation in Scotland is not great, it would be undesirable not to preserve the common United Kingdom code in this matter. I think that is obvious to everybody. As the present provision is in an Act of United Kingdom application the Amendment we propose here is carried out by Regulations of United Kingdom application also. That is all we are asking the House to do.
  I was asked one or two questions which I will try to answer. The hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) asked for the likely number of such control towers. I am told that we may have to have only five in the London boroughs; there might be one in the provinces, and I think there might be one or two in Scotland. I cannot tell exactly, but it would not be very many. I hope that answers that point.
  As regards the question asked by the right hon. Gentleman and others, and already replied by to my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Robert Jenkins), whether some other use could be made of these control towers once they have been built, I would say, frankly, that

  1431
  I hope we could make another use of them. I do not know whether a garage is the right answer, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling). I am sure the principle is one which we would all accept. We will certainly examine it very carefully to see whether we can put these war-time places to some useful purpose for peace-time. Everybody will want to do it.
  The hon. Member for Ayrshire, South (Mr. Emrys Hughes) asked about the financial arrangements. With great respect, I do not think that really properly arises in this debate, because this is changing nothing. This is only enabling the local authorities to make sites in their towns available where they could not do so otherwise. That is all. As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, the arrangements as to the cost of these civil defence preparations between the central Government and the local authorities have long been settled; they were settled in the time of the last Government and we have adopted that settlement.
  I forget exactly what the proportion is, but in certain cases the central Government bear all the cost and in certain cases it is a shared cost between the central Government and the local authorities. Therefore, I do not think he need get excited about this tonight. I would say, with respect, that this is not the occasion to debate that particular matter. If he asks me, "What do you think the total cost of all this will be?" I cannot tell him. How can one tell at the moment exactly what they will cost?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can the hon. Gentleman not give an estimate? What is the approximate estimate?
  Mr. Stewart: At this stage, the House is asked only to approve a slight change in the interpretation of two words with regard to making available sites in towns. I think that that covers all the points which, with respect, are relevant, and I hope that the House will agree to the Regulations.
  Resolved,
  That the Draft Civil Defence (Appropriation of Lands and Buildings) Regulations, 1952, a copy of which was laid before this House on 14th October, be approved.

  GERM WARFARE, KOREA
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Studholme]
  11.31 p.m.
  Mr. S. O. Davies (Merthyr Tydvil): The subject which I wish to raise in the short time at my disposal is not unrelated to the subject which has been discussed in the Order dealing with Civil Defence. I propose to say something about germ warfare in Korea. I know that the charge that germ warfare has been carried on there by United Nations forces is usually answered by the cry that it is not true—and that in a voice affecting horror at the thought that the United Nations could resort to such a vile practice. It is, however, well known that in the last 10 or 12 years America has built up huge organisations for developing and prosecuting bacteriological warfare.
  Some of us remember the report of Mr. G. W. Merck in 1946. He became chairman of the United States Biological Welfare Committee. He spoke of large laboratories employing about 4,000, at Camp Dettrick, Maryland. We also know that the United States Navy had its own germ warfare plant at the University of California.
  "It is important to note,"
  remarked, Mr. Merck,
  "that the development of agents for biological warfare is possible.. without the vast expenditure of money on construction of huge production facilities."
  At about the same time the chairman of the United States Naval Appropriations Sub-Committee boasted that the United States was in an enviable position by its progress——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): At this point may I ask whether there is any Ministerial responsibility? I should like to know what the Minister has to say.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I should like to know whether there is any Ministerial responsibility.
  Mr. Davies: I wish to raise a point of order on the objection which you are making, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I want first to find the answer to my query.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Nutting): There is no Ministerial responsibility.
  Mr. Hughes: I submit, with great respect, that whether there is Ministerial responsibility cannot be decided by an Under-Secretary.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understand that there is no Ministerial responsibility. Therefore, this debate is out of order.
  Mr. Hughes: I wish to put this point for your further consideration, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The question of bacteriological warfare is going to be discussed at the United Nations Assembly in a few weeks' time and if we have a Minister there, he will have to speak on this subject. I submit, therefore, that you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, ought to be guided by that consideration, and not by the casual decision of an Under-Secretary of State.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot see, in regard to the point raised now, that there is any possible responsibility at the moment from our Government's point of view. That is my point. If it has not responsibility, then this debate is out of order.
  Mr. Davies: If there is no Ministerial responsibility——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understand that there is no Ministerial responsibility and therefore this debate is out of order.
  Mr. Hughes: May I put another point of order? There is a bacteriological station under the control of the Minister of Supply, and I submit that there is a Ministerial responsibility.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There is no Ministerial responsibility for what is being raised at the moment.
  Mr. Davies: May I put a further point of order, because I am extremely sensitive at an attempt on the part of Mr. Deputy-Speaker, or anyone else, to suppress discussion in this House on a matter of paramount importance to the people of this country.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I really cannot let that be said. I am only carrying out my duty, and the hon. Gentleman must withdraw that remark. He has no right to speak to me like that.
  Mr. Davies: I will withdraw. You will probably forgive me, Mr. Deputy-
  1434
  Speaker, but I feel strongly about this matter. I will withdraw any statement which has caused you umbrage.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It has not caused me umbrage. I do not care in the slightest. But it is not the right way to address the Chair.
  Mr. Davies: Will the Chair accept my withdrawal? Further to the point of order, some of us have not a shadow of doubt that bacteriological warfare is being carried out in Korea at this moment. There are British personnel engaged in the Korean war. This Government is responsible for the Korean war—[Interruption.]—this Government assumes its responsibility within the United Nations—and surely one is entitled to raise any matter relating to the Korean war, where young British lives are being lost and being ruined at this moment. Is the Chair telling us that we cannot discuss the details and the methods of warfare being carried on in Korea at this moment?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Chair is going to tell the hon. Member and to insist that there is going to be no discussion where there is no Ministerial responsibility.
  Mr. Geoffrey Bing: If I may follow on this point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as I understand it, the question upon which my hon. Friend is addressing the House is this: that there exists a United Nations organisation which is engaged in prosecuting on behalf of the United Nations a conflict in Korea. Without going into the merits either one way or the other, there must surely be some collective responsibility on behalf of the nations engaged in this matter, and if there is any allegation against the manner in which that war is conducted, surely that is a matter on which each of the individual countries participating in that war has some degree of responsibility.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is a very clever point, but it does not make it any more certain that there is any Ministerial responsibility.
  Mr. Nutting: May I rise to that point of order? With respect, I entirely agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing). The question I was asked was whether there was any Ministerial responsibility where the

  1435
  allegation was made by the hon. Gentleman that the United States Government were carrying on bacteriological research. The answer which I gave to that was, of course, that there was no Ministerial responsibility there at all. But there is Ministerial responsibility where charges are made about the conduct in the Korean war for which conduct we are jointly responsible with the participating nations.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I beg pardon.
  Mr. Davies: I am quite prepared to leave the United States out of the discussion, but I cannot help wondering, and I am entitled to express it, as to how we are progressing in the interests, may I say, of a higher civilisation at our own germ warfare plant at Porton on Salisbury Plain, and whether or not we have as yet used our knowledge in this awful business in contributing to the mass destruction of the Korean people. I admit we have signed the 1925 Geneva Protocol against the use of bacteriological weapons in war, but I also know, too, that another nation did not sign, and has refused to sign that Protocol. In view of my being absolutely convinced that germ warfare has been carried out in Korea, I must tell the Government that they must share the blame for that kind of warfare, and the fact that we have signed the Geneva Protocol makes it far more ignominious on our part that we have not protested against that kind of warfare in Korea.
  Hon. Gentlemen, however sensitive they may feel about it, must know that the carrying on of germ warfare in Korea has now become very well known, and is backed by evidence that cannot be honestly challenged. I have to admit that the British Press in all matters relating to the abominations of the United Nations in Korea has, during the last two to two and a half years, wallowed in the most cowardly and reckless mendacities, and deliberately refused to give the people even a part of the truth of what has been going on. I am sorry I have to say that about the Press of my own country.
  I shall be asked how do I know germ warfare has been carried on in Korea, and I shall be reminded that I have not been there. I was not at Hiroshima, nor at Nagasaki, when the atom bombs were dropped. But I happen to know that the
  1436
  bombs were dropped there. I did not see Hitler's gas chambers at work, but we all know they were used with dreadful consequences. We know because we have relied on the word and evidence of men and women whose integrity we have no reason at all to doubt. And evidence equally reliable, I contend, has come to us from the Far East, proving beyond all shadow of doubt that germ warfare has been carried on in North Korea and China.
  But why should we have any doubt about it? No one questions the use of the napalm bomb in Korea—infinitely more brutal and horrible in the mass killing and maiming of the civilian population than even the germ warfare has been. I saw no pictures from Hitlerite Germany at the end of the last war more terrible and sickening than those of the victims of indiscriminate napalm bombing in Korea, and it is pictures of women and children largely that I have seen. Nothing that my Celtic imagination can conjure up of the horrors of hell can ever equal the sadistic, ghoulish horror inflicted on the Korean people. United Nations for peace and freedom—what absolute hypocrisy in the face of these happenings in that remote part of the world.
  Why pretend that those responsible for these crimes against humanity could ever have any scruples about germ warfare? We know that, at the time Japan capitulated in the last war, a cargo of bacteriological agents was on its way to the Marianas to be used against the Japanese. We also know that the Japanese carried on germ warfare against the Chinese in the last war, but it is also known that, on the instructions of the last Commander-in-Chief in Korea, Shiro Ishii, Jiro Wakamatsu and Massajo Kitano, Japanese bacteriological war criminals arrived in Korea from Tokyo in the winter of 1951 to take part in the planning of bacteriological warfare to be launched by the United Nations, including Britain, against the Koreans. What information has the Under-Secretary of State on that hideous fact about Japanese bacteriological war criminals being brought to Korea? It is no use the Government telling me they do not know about it.
  There was a telepress despatch from Rangoon dated 5th December, 1951, and

  1437
  a Reuter despatch of 9th December, 1951, both giving identical reports that this was being done. We know that evidence of germ warfare has been forthcoming from the intelligence officers and other serving American airmen who are prisoners of war and held in North Korea. They have admitted—and I have here with me photostatic copies of their confessions in detail and in their own handwriting—they have admitted that they did take part in this criminal business. I know it will be said that these statements taken from prisoners of war were extracted from them under pressure, but it so happens that all the reports that have come from the prisoners of war in North Korea show that they have been well treated. They are well-fed, well housed and well clothed.
  It may also be of some significance to us in this country that there has not been a single massacre of United Nations prisoners in North Korea, a somewhat common practice, we must admit, in South Korea. Nor have the North Koreans introduced the game of taking pot shots at prisoners of war, as has been done in South Korea and where it is euphemistically described as "accidentally shot." This is the war that we are supporting in Korea. From the character of the evidence of these prisoners of war, I am absolutely convinced that it was given quite freely. This evidence showed that they profoundly objected to being used in that wicked business of germ warfare.
  I wonder whether the Under-Secretary of State has seen the reports of the International Scientific Commission for the investigation of the facts concerning bacteriological warfare in Korea and China? It has presented evidence that cannot be gainsaid, and I am confident it will not be disputed by any competent scientist in this country. I would ask that copies of the report be placed in the Library of this House. This Commission was composed of distinguished scientists, all well-known and respected in their own countries. They came from Sweden, France, our own country, Italy, Brazil, and the U.S.S.R., and in their report these scientists give not only their findings, but also a description of their methods of investigation, entomological data, and a most detailed account of the infected creatures
  1438
  disseminated, and the manner of their dissemination. There are facts about outbreaks of plague in North Korea and Manchuria, and how the germs of anthrax, cholera, encephalitis, dysentery, and smallpox were scattered in those countries.
  In the light of the great mass of evidence examined by this Scientific Commission, it could only come to one conclusion. In the members' own words, they say:
  "The people of Korea and China have indeed been the objective of bacteriological weapons. These have been employed by units of the United States forces, using a great variety of different methods for the purpose some of which would seem to be developments of those applied by the Japanese army during the Second World War."
  The report goes on to say:
  "The Commission reached these conclusions after passing from one logical step to another. It did so reluctantly because its members had not been disposed to believe that such inhuman technique could have been put into execution in the face of its universal condemnation by the peoples of all nations."
  Finally, the Commission adds:
  "It is now for all peoples to redouble their efforts to preserve the world from war and prevent the discoveries of science being used for the destruction of humanity."
  What an appalling commentary on the prostitution of the art and science of medicine.
  The truth of the charges I have made tonight will not be contested on any factual grounds, but feeble excuses will be made, and feeble questions asked, such as, for example, why did not the North Koreans and the Chinese invite the International Red Cross to investigate the charges of germ warfare? The reasons are obvious. When ghastly massacres were taking place in Nazi concentration camps, Red Cross investigators were issuing reports that all was well. Have we forgotten their report on the notorious camp at Auschwitz, of gas chambers fame, that murder camp which——
  Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member desires any reply from the Joint Under-Secretary of State, I would remind him that he is leaving very little time. I merely give that reminder in case he is oblivious of the passage of time.
  Mr. Nutting: Would the hon. Gentleman allow me to interrupt him, because he is obviously not going to give me

  1439
  enough time in which to reply? May I ask him, having made these accusations against the Red Cross relating to the last war, why, in August, 1949, the Soviet Union and its Eastern satellites all endorsed a report and signed a convention at Geneva in which there was a resolution describing the Red Cross as an impartial humanitarian body?
  Mr. Davies: I shall answer the question when I have had time to study the conditions under which such a report was made, and not before.
  May I finish on this note? May I quote from the book of Hanson W. Baldwin, military expert of the "New York Times" who, in his "Great Mistakes of the War," writes:
  "That blinding flash above Hiroshima wrote a climax to an era of American expediency. On that date we joined this list of those who had introduced new and horrible weapons for the extermination of man.… The use of the atomic bomb, therefore cost us dearly: we are now branded with the 'mark of the beast' … We have embarked on total war with a vengeance."
  But the foul business goes on, with germ warfare, bubonic plague, cholera, typhoid, small pox, tetanus, with mass killings of men, women and children; and on, like the Gadarine swine, we go into an abyss of moral and spiritual degradation.
  11.57 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Nutting): The hon. Gentleman has left me precious little time in which to answer the outrageous charges which he has so wantonly bandied about. It is an old story, an old Communist story, and not one shred of the evidence which the hon. Gentleman has produced has added anything to substantiate the charges.
  Let me deal with the Scientific Commission to which he referred. In the first place, I noticed on 17th September that the "Daily Worker" admitted it was sponsored by the Communist-controlled World Peace Council, and secondly, that all its six members are known to be Communists or Communist sympathisers.
  It is true that Dr. Needham, who led the delegation, is a scientist, but I find it curious that the only bacteriologist
  1440
  on the deputation was a Russian, a M. Zhukov. What is more, on 28th April, Dr. Needham, the leader of the delegation, publicly supported the germ warfare charges before he had investigated them. This showed that he accepted the charges and that his mind and the minds of the other members of the delegation were made up before they went to investigate. If this does not bear out that the whole of their report bears the mark of a Communist fraud, I do not know what does.
  The evidence they have produced is all third-hand. It was received through Chinese interpreters from Chinese scientists working on reports from Chinese peasants. If the hon. Gentleman does not believe that, let him read the report. No attempt was made by this delegation to check or cross-check the evidence, all of which has been taken at its face value without any regard whatsoever for the inevitable partiality of the people through whom it has passed.
  Let me quote one thing from what Dr. Needham said at a Press conference after his return. He said:
  "The Chinese replies were vague. If the Chinese did not want to give us permission to investigate these things we could not force them. … Cases had already been thoroughly worked out by the Chinese and they were the ones which they (the Chinese) wanted us (the Commission) to study."
  That is a clear admission of the fraudulent nature of this report.
  I will only say this in conclusion. The whole of the evidence which the hon. Gentleman has produced and the whole of the investigations that have been referred to have not produced one shred of real evidence that bacteria have been used by the United Nations forces in the Korean conflict. Most of all, the fact that up till now every endeavour to secure an impartial investigation has been vetoed by the Soviet can only show that they themselves know perfectly well, as does the hon. Gentleman himself, that their charges would not stand up to independent or neutral investigation.
  Mr. Davies: I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy of the report.
  Adjourned accordingly at One Minute past Twelve o'Clock a.m.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Doctors' Prescription Books
  Doctors' Prescription Books
  Cataract Blindness
  Cataract Blindness
  Health Centres (Building Schemes)
  Health Centres (Building Schemes)
  Emergency Dental Treatment, Rugby
  Emergency Dental Treatment, Rugby
HOSPITALS
  Mental Defectives, Sheffield
  Mental Defectives, Sheffield
  Endowments and Bequests
  Endowments and Bequests
  Construction and Extensions (Capital Cost)
  Construction and Extensions (Capital Cost)
  Domestic Staff (Sick Pay)
  Domestic Staff (Sick Pay)
  APSLEY HOUSE
  APSLEY HOUSE
EDUCATION
  Independent Schools (Transfers of Pupils)
  Independent Schools (Transfers of Pupils)
  Holidays
  Holidays
  School Building
  School Building
  School Kitchens and Canteens, Wales
  School Kitchens and Canteens, Wales
  Sub-Normal and Ineducable Children, Buckinghamshire
  Sub-Normal and Ineducable Children, Buckinghamshire
  CEYLON (U.K. PENSIONERS)
  CEYLON (U.K. PENSIONERS)
  UNITED NATIONS (RACIAL DISCRIMINATION)
  UNITED NATIONS (RACIAL DISCRIMINATION)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Rubber and Tin Exports (Russia and China)
  Rubber and Tin Exports (Russia and China)
  Retail Prices
  Retail Prices
  Imports
  Imports
  N.E. Trading Estates (Employment)
  N.E. Trading Estates (Employment)
  Railway Equipment (Foreign Orders)
  Railway Equipment (Foreign Orders)
  Fruit Pulp (Import Licences)
  Fruit Pulp (Import Licences)
  Cotton, Sulphur, Rubber and Softwood
  Cotton, Sulphur, Rubber and Softwood
CIVIL SERVICE
  Staff Reductions
  Staff Reductions
  Temporary Staff
  Temporary Staff
  Pensions
  Pensions
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Furniture (Tax Receipts)
  Furniture (Tax Receipts)
  Overseas Subsidiary Factories
  Overseas Subsidiary Factories
  Foreign Travel (Jewelry)
  Foreign Travel (Jewelry)
  Entertainments Duty (Cinemas)
  Entertainments Duty (Cinemas)
  COLONIAL NEWSREELS (RELEASE DATES)
  COLONIAL NEWSREELS (RELEASE DATES)
  RAILWAY WORKSHOPS (STEEL ALLOCATION)
  RAILWAY WORKSHOPS (STEEL ALLOCATION)
AGRICULTURE
  Field, Tamworth (Building Development)
  Field, Tamworth (Building Development)
  Holdings Act, 1948 (Position of Sub-Tenants)
  Holdings Act, 1948 (Position of Sub-Tenants)
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Beef Production
  Beef Production
  Disused Roads and Railways
  Disused Roads and Railways
  Farm Institutes
  Farm Institutes
  Poultry Farming (Government Policy)
  Poultry Farming (Government Policy)
  Gatwick Airport Plan (Food Production)
  Gatwick Airport Plan (Food Production)
  Apples and Pears Marketing Scheme
  Apples and Pears Marketing Scheme
  Ploughing Grants Scheme
  Ploughing Grants Scheme
  Horticultural Tariffs
  Horticultural Tariffs
  Milk Marketing Board
  Milk Marketing Board
  AIR-PISTOLS AND CATAPULTS (YOUNG PERSONS)
  AIR-PISTOLS AND CATAPULTS (YOUNG PERSONS)
PRISONS
  Escaped Prisoner (Leyhill)
  Escaped Prisoner (Leyhill)
  Accommodation and Staff
  Accommodation and Staff
  POLICE PATROLS, WEST END
  POLICE PATROLS, WEST END
  CAR PARKING (OBSTRUCTION)
  CAR PARKING (OBSTRUCTION)
  PONY FOALS (SLAUGHTERING)
  PONY FOALS (SLAUGHTERING)
  CAPITAL PUNISHMENT (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  CAPITAL PUNISHMENT (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  FATAL HOME ACCIDENTS
  FATAL HOME ACCIDENTS
  FOSTER HOMES
  FOSTER HOMES
  LORD MAYOR'S SHOW
  LORD MAYOR'S SHOW
  MAGISTRATES' COURTS COMMITTEES
  MAGISTRATES' COURTS COMMITTEES
  SPOIL DUMPS (MINING AREAS)
  SPOIL DUMPS (MINING AREAS)
EMPLOYMENT
  Mule Spinners' Cancer
  Mule Spinners' Cancer
  Dock Workers
  Dock Workers
  Building Trade Workers, Gateshead
  Building Trade Workers, Gateshead
  Holiday Pay (National Service)
  Holiday Pay (National Service)
  West Ham
  West Ham
  Disabled Persons, Gateshead
  Disabled Persons, Gateshead
  Returns
  Returns
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  TRADING IN ZINC
  2.35 p.m.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given private notice—namely, have Her Majesty's Government any statement to make about the termination of public trade in zinc?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (VISCOUNT SWINTON):
  My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for putting this Question. The Government have decided that private trading in zinc can be restored as soon as the necessary arrangements can be made by the Ministry of Materials and the trade. Discussions with the trade and other interests concerned will take place at once, and it is hoped that it will be possible to give effect to the decision on October I, 1953.* A further announcement about the date will be made as soon as possible. From the date of reversion the private import and sale of virgin zinc will be permitted, and the London Metal Exchange will reopen for transactions in zinc. The Ministry of Materials will cease to trade in zinc, except to the extent necessary to wind up its trading operations. I should like to take the occasion of this statement to pay grateful tribute to the great help we have had from our suppliers at home, in the Commonwealth and overseas in meeting the supply difficulties in past years.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for the statement that he has just made to the House. Naturally, we do not desire to debate this question to-day, but owing to a number of these events now taking place, it is possible that before long we should like the House to review the whole question. Perhaps I may say just two things. The Government, holding the view which they do in matters of trading, have taken a course of action which is within their rights. The noble Viscount will not be
  914
  surprised to know that we hold another view—namely, that in times of shortage these materials should be organised internationally, so that there should be fair distribution. Perhaps the noble Viscount will permit me to put to him three questions, the replies to which may be of help to the House as a whole. First of all, is this new departure a sign of growing and better supplies, or of falling demand? Secondly, will arrangements be made to assume control of zinc, should high, prices make it necessary later? Thirdly, will the Government ensure a stockpile to make the interests of this country quite safe in times of emergency, or as a means of easing prices should they get out of hand?
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I will gladly answer those questions. I may say, of course, that if the noble Lord and his friends would like a debate on these matters we shall be only too glad to facilitate it—indeed, I should welcome an opportunity of expounding the excellence of the policy which we are pursuing. I am a little surprised at the noble Lord saying that this is altogether novel and revolutionary on our part. I think he must have forgotten that when his Government were in power they set me the admirable example of returning tin to the London Metal Exchange—a singularly successful operation. I have been very glad to follow suit in the matter of lead, and now, I hope, at the beginning of next year, in the matter of zinc. The noble Lord said that he was in favour of maintaining control when supplies were short. So should I be. But supplies of this commodity are not at all short at the present time. The supplies and prospect of supplies are ample. In regard to rising prices, the noble Lord cannot have followed what has taken place. If he would look at the chart showing what has happened to lead since it was freed and returned to the London Metal Exchange, he would see that the price has fallen markedly, and I have no reason to suppose that the same sort of thing will not happen in the case of zinc. The noble Lord certainly need be under no anxiety that supplies, both in existence and in prospect, are not ample, and so far as keeping an adequate stock is concerned, the stocks which the Government hold, or will certainly hold at the time when the Market resumes its operations, will be large.
  LORD SHEPHERD: I thank the noble Viscount for the full answer that he has given, and I appreciate the points that he has made. I did, however, ask him whether this operation and the possible fall in price was due to increasing and plentiful supplies, or to a regrettable decline in demand.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I think it is due to both. There has been a decline in demand in the engineering industry, but there are some signs that that is changing a little. Certainly world supplies are ample to meet the demand, and, that being so, I think we should all agree that it is much more in the interests of us all that we should have a free market and free dealing in the commodity.
  LORD STRABOLGI: Is the noble Viscount aware that, apart from political theories, which of course I share with my noble friend below me, this news will be very welcome to the dealers in zinc in Mincing Lane and elsewhere? I should like to ask, first, whether zinc is to be considered as a strategic material, and its sale to the East European countries therefore restricted, or whether it will be treated as an ordinary commodity to be traded in as freely as possible. Secondly, may I ask the noble Viscount whether he is in a position to take steps to see that the necessary export licences are given without delay. The machinery does work well, generally speaking, but he will be aware that in certain cases there are rather inordinate delays which affect our export trade.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I take note of the fact that the noble Lord's political principles in no way accord with his commercial practices—that is quite as it should be. As regards this being a strategic material and the question of its export to certain countries, I think I should like to see a Question on the Order Paper before giving an answer. With respect to licences for this trade, which it is intended should be free, I think the machinery works extremely well; it is automatic so far as licences for lead are concerned, and certainly it is our intention that once the market for zinc is freed the whole business should be as free and automatic as possible.
  I must ask your Lordships to forgive me, but I must take the earliest opportunity of correcting something which I
  916
  have just said. I am informed that I stated that the date we hoped to bring the reversion to private trading in zinc into force was October 1,1953. Quite obviously, that was a slip of the tongue. The date should be January 1,1953. I cannot think how I came to read it out wrongly. I am grateful for the opportunity of making the correction, and I am obliged for having had the matter brought to my notice by the Lord Chancellor and also from another source.

  HOUSING (SCOTLAND) BILL
  2.44 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, as your Lordships are aware, this Housing (Scotland) Bill has only limited objectives, but nevertheless I hope that you will feel that they are necessary and worth while. The main purpose of the Bill is to increase the Exchequer subsidy on houses which are built by a local authority or by the Scottish Special Housing Association. A local authority (and for purposes of illustration this afternoon, and for convenience, I shall always take the case of a four-apartment house in relation to any figures I may quote) has since 1946 had a subsidy of £23 per four-apartment house per annum. In the present Bill that subsidy is raised from £23 by £19 5s. to a total of £42 5s. That subsidy is designed to achieve two things: first, to cover the rise in interest rates which has occurred since this time last year, and, secondly, to help local authorities in some degree to meet their increasing costs.
  The subsidy, clearly, can only be fixed satisfactorily in so far as the capital cost of the average house can be ascertained accurately. It was hoped that after discussions with the local authorities we could have agreed a figure of cost for the average four-apartment house, and, therefore, that we could have agreed a figure for subsidy. But, in practice, after prolonged conversations, the local authority figure stuck at £1,900, and the Government survey revealed an average cost figure of £1,765. From that £1,765, £130 was deducted in respect of economies in design and construction which are now possible, leaving a figure of

  917
  £1,635. So there was a gap between the local authorities' own estimate and the result of the Government's survey, and no agreement was possible. In those circumstances the Government had to take a decision. That seemed rather to surprise Her Majesty's Opposition in another place. Perhaps they are out of practice in that respect. But to take a decision is a necessary thing in some circumstances for a Government to do.
  We therefore fixed the figure of £1,635 as a reasonably fair figure on which to base a subsidy, and for these reasons. The survey which was carried out by the Departments was a factual survey and took into account the actual contracts over a wide area for the seven months preceding the establishment of the new subsidy. The subsidy of £42 5s., in fact, fully covers the rise in interest rates, and it contributes something towards the increased costs which local authorities now have to pay. In England the local authorities agreed on a figure of £1,525 as the capital cost of the average house, and the figure for Scotland of £1,635 is over £100 in advance of that. The burden which the taxpayer is bearing is at present 16s. 3d. per head per house per week, and the Government did not feel that the taxpayer could be asked to bear a greater burden at this time. So, for all these reasons, I hope your Lordships will sustain the Government's decision to fix the new subsidy at £42 5s. which is £19 5s. in advance of anything local authorities have had in the last six years.
  I know it is everybody's desire that we should hold the agricultural population on the land. Indeed, if we are to fulfil our programme of increased food production, it is necessary not only to maintain the houses there are but also to have a great many more houses built in country districts. Therefore, the Government have taken the opportunity to include in this Bill two new measures which we hope will contribute to that end. Up till now, if a private individual wished to build a house for an agricultural worker, he could obtain a grant up to a maximum of £300, but only if he built a house in replacement of an old one. We have removed that limitation and now, although it is a modest grant when we take into account the expense of building an agricultural cottage, anybody who builds a new house
  918
  in the country will be able to get the maximum grant of £300. We have taken the step, which I can safely say the whole agricultural community regards as long overdue, of giving a grant for the reconditioning of cottages which are tied to farms. May I add, in passing, that the Secretary of State has taken the opportunity by regulations to raise the upward limit of the amount which can be expended from £600 to £800, and therefore the grant will go up from a maximum of £300 to a maximum of £400? In the exceptional cases which are particularly costly because of their remoteness from sources of labour or materials, the Secretary of State retains his discretion, after an examination of every application, to allow extra expenditure.
  In Scotland, where so many of our cottages are substantially constructed, I can say with certainty that the reconditioning of many of our cottages—and in Scotland we took great advantage of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act of 1926, which was later allowed to expire by the Socialist Government—will make more durable and comfortable homes than many of the houses that are being built at the present time at present costs. The principle of the tied cottage, of course, has been objected to, but few people who live in the country can understand the validity of that objection, and certainly they can never follow it when it comes from those who have advocated nationalisation, having regard to the practice of the nationalised industries, which have taken power to tie to themselves many cottages and houses for employees. It is essential, particularly in a country like Scotland where distances are great, that farm workers should be able to live on the farm.
  Housing finance, the difficulties of the local authorities and the amounts which have to be expended by the taxpayer and ratepayer, are causing great anxiety. The secret of relief and success must be looked for in reducing building costs. From now on the Government and the local authorities, the industry and the unions should make that their chief preoccupation. There will be other occasions on which we can develop this wider question. Meanwhile I would ask your Lordships' approval for this modest Bill, which is a new instrument to help in the rehousing of the people.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Home.)
  2.56 p.m.
  LORD MORRISON: My Lords, as was to be expected, the noble Earl, Lord Home, has given a clear and brief exposition of the provisions of what he has just described as a modest Bill. He correctly described it as a Bill dealing mainly with the problems of housing finance. I would put the main object of this Bill as the redistribution of the increased cost of housing subsidies between the taxpayers and the ratepayers. These increases are largely necessitated by the rise in the bank rate—I think the noble Earl in fact said that. The rise in the bank rate was immediately followed by a rise in the rate of interest charged by the Public Works Loan Board. But even before this happened, there was considerable anxiety. I would endorse what the noble Earl said in regard to Scotland—although it applies not only in Scotland but all over England as well. There was considerable anxiety among local authorities about housing finance, in view of the fact that—in spite of the pious wishes the noble Earl uttered a few moments ago—there are few indications of any appreciable decrease in housing costs.
  I confess that I have not sufficient knowledge of the finer points of banking and finance to venture an opinion as to whether, or to what extent, it was necessary for the Public Works Loan Board to increase their rate of interest because the bank rate had gone up. I am not sure whether it was what we regard in this House as consequential, but at any rate it was done. However, I do know this: that the result has been alarming, to local authorities, to tenants and prospective tenants of council houses, and to those looking forward to owning their own houses. Everybody with any knowledge of local government knows this. Therefore, I make no apology this afternoon for asking your Lordships to permit me to skip the minor provisions of the Bill and concentrate upon the much more important question of where we are going in housing finance.
  This problem is not peculiar to Scotland, although it is generally agreed that it is more acute in Scotland. Your Lordships will recall that last July we debated in this House an English Bill with
  920
  similar objects. The Second Reading of that Bill was moved by the noble Lord. Lord Woolton, whose present illness we all greatly deplore. The main object of that Bill was the same as the main object of this one—namely, to restore the balance of housing subsidies between the Government and local authorities which had been upset by the rise in the rate of interest. If your Lordships will forgive me for mentioning his name, you may recall that in our discussions on that Bill my noble friend Lord Silkin made an impressive speech upon the ever-increasing burden of housing subsidies, a speech which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, cordially welcomed. This afternoon I am harping on the same point, because ever since last July the situation has become rapidly worse. Unless a halt can be called, I fear that we are heading for a complete breakdown in our housing finance. This Bill, like the English Bill, will do little, if anything, to avert it. Every day evidence accumulates of the anxiety to which the noble Earl himself referred. Last Saturday there was a headline in The Times, "Housing Burden on London Rates: Three Times 1939 Sum"; and it went on to give the gist of the Report of the Finance Committee of the London County Council, which I summarise by saying that that Report for 1951–52 shows a total deficiency of £4,066,636, and that the additional rate contribution now necessary is nearly eight and a half times the amount required before the war. The Report in The Times adds:
  "… the standard costs on which subsidies and statutory rate contributions are based, have left large deficiencies which are far from covered by the rents charged."
  The Scottish Bill, like the English Bill, is only doing a little juggling on the fringe of this problem: it is not even an effective stopgap. Take the example, which the noble Earl gave, of four-apartment houses, which are very common in large Scottish centres. The Government's subsidy under this new proposal will be 16s. 3d. a week, as the noble Earl said. This is paid for by the taxpayer. Beyond that there is the ratepayers' subsidy, which will amount under this measure to 5s. 6d. a week. The ratepayers' subsidy is paid for by the rates levied by the local authorities. But that is not the end of this sad story. After these subsidies are known the duty of fixing rents to

  921
  be charged falls upon the local authorities. It is not easy, as one can well understand. Every local authority in Scotland, and in England, too, has a long waiting list, compiled after meticulous examination of the circumstances of the applicants. There is a points system applied in most local authorities for various kinds of hardship. It is not difficult to realise that if the rent fixed by the local authority is fixed too high some most deserving and urgent cases, of families living under horrible conditions, will be forced, because they cannot afford the rent, to refuse the offer of a house when it is made to them. What happens, therefore, in most cases is that local authorities, knowing far better than the Government do the economic circumstances of the families on their housing lists, fix a rent at a figure which they think the tenant can afford without falling into arrears. They do this, although in many cases they know that this will create a deficit over and above the contributions already required from them, which they will have to meet by a further rate increase. So the figures under this Bill are really 16s. 3d. for a four-apartment house, payable by the taxpayers—by the Government, if you like—5s. 6d. payable by the ratepayers, at the demand of the local authority, plus the deficit which may arise, with the rent added to it.
  This is not only what will happen; it is actually happening now to an alarming extent, and this Bill merely continues the medicine as before. Nobody with knowledge of local authorities will deny that in housing matters they are rapidly reaching a point of financial difficulty which may have far-reaching consequences. It was stated in another place that in the past five years Scottish local authorities have had to find an additional £5,500,000 to meet the deficits in their housing revenue accounts. Almost every week one can read in the Scottish Press of finance officers or treasurers presenting reports calling attention to the increasing burdens which have resulted since the increase in the interest rates. One of the Under-Secretaries for Scotland confirmed this. He said that he did not think it possible for the taxpayer to make a larger contribution; and he added:
  "The local authorities are hard pressed."
  922
  I think the noble Earl would probably accept that as not being an exaggeration.
  THE EARL OF HOME: I think I must interrupt the noble Lord. The calculation of the subsidy does cover the interest rate since last April. That was the object of this Bill. It has a comparatively limited objective.
  LORD MORRISON: Therefore, the argument I am putting before your Lordships is that, whereas the condition of the local authorities was extremely difficult before the rise in the bank rate, followed by the rise in the interest rates, now it is much more difficult still.
  I have a little more evidence which the noble Earl might like to consider. It is quite evident, to me, at any rate, that the full effects of the increase in the rate of interest are only now beginning to be felt. May I give your Lordships an example from another angle? I confess at once that this is not a Scottish example, but, as I say, this difficulty arises in England, and is almost as acute there as it is in Scotland. I am sure what I am now going to say will come as a surprise to many of your Lordships. In one local authority of which I have some knowledge a long list has been compiled of persons asking for licences to build their own houses—an ideal which the Government have very much at heart, judging by the public speeches of its members. To get on the approved list applicants have to convince the council that their housing need is urgent. That, I think, is in accordance with the request of the Minister of Housing, Mr. Macmillan, who, said that in these cases housing need would be taken into consideration. In the authority to which I am referring, we have a long list of people who have applied for licences to build their own houses, because their housing need is urgent. Within the past month seventy taken from the top priorities of the list were offered a licence to build their own houses. What was the response? I have been informed this morning that, after being given a month to consider this offer, only eight out of the seventy have accepted. These people have not been cross-examined by the council (it is not the council's business) as to why they took all this trouble to get their names put on the list, and now, having been offered a licence to build a house, they

  923
  do not wish to avail themselves of it. But I venture to say that probably the main reason is that the rise in the interest rates has made it impossible for them to continue.
  I hope that the Government, and not only the Scottish Department, will give early and urgent consideration as to where all this is leading us. In my long experience of local government no one has ever accused me of being an alarmist; but now I confess, quite frankly, that I am alarmed. We appear to be heading for a complete breakdown in our housing finance, and I am afraid that this Bill is not going to stop it. It is obvious that local authorities cannot continue to carry the burden of these huge deficiencies any more than the Government can. What of the tenants, and the many thousands urgently in need of houses? Any large increase in rent for lower-paid wage earners will make it almost impossible for them to accept a house. For these reasons and many more, which I will not take up your Lordships' time in developing, I cannot honestly say that this Bill makes an important contribution to Scotland's housing problem. I suppose in that I agree with the Minister, who said that it was a modest Bill. This Bill will go through, but the problem will still be there.
  Finally, I should like your Lordships to consider a suggestion. I have serious doubts—and I believe many of your Lordships in all parts of this House have similar doubts—as to whether Britain's housing problem will ever begin to look like being solved until it is lifted out of the arena of Party politics. That is a task which will not be easy; but if there is one problem or, should I say, one series of problems, crying out to be tackled on non-Party lines, this is it. Whichever Government are in power they do their best, but half the population have no confidence in them, whether it be a Conservative or a Labour Government. I believe that the overwhelming majority of the population—politicians and non-politicians alike—would welcome any step in the direction I suggest. The question is: Who will be bold enough to take the initiative? We can hardly expect it to come from either Party in another place, or from their organisations throughout the country—they are too busy fighting each other.
  924
  Would it be considered presumptuous by your Lordships if I suggested that members of this House might give the suggestion consideration? I do not wish to encourage an exaggerated sense of our importance but I have no doubt that, given an opportunity, in that non-Party spirit in which this House often excels we could rise to the occasion and that many useful suggestions would be forthcoming. I will not develop this point further to-day, as the House has other business.
  I hope the noble Lord opposite will forgive me for not dealing clause by clause with this Bill. After his lucid exposition, it is unnecessary. Moreover, the Bill has already been discussed at great length in another place—at too great a length I might suggest, considering that it is merely (I do not think the Minister will disagree) a stopgap. We on this side do not intend to vote against the Second Reading, and, therefore, I have taken the opportunity of expressing my personal opinion that the problem of adequately housing our population might make more rapid progress if it were dealt with on non-Party lines. If your Lordships' House could see its way to give a lead in that direction. I am sure that we should deserve well of our country.
  3.4 p.m.
  LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, the Scottish farm servant and Scottish country dwellers generally have had their interests so long postponed for those of the town dwellers that I greatly welcome this Bill. I am very grateful to the Government for it, and in particular for the help they are going to give to the owners of tied houses. I will come back to that in a moment, but at this point I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, for what he has said about taking housing out of Party politics. I thoroughly endorse his remarks. If he will allow me, I will just touch for a moment on the subject mentioned by the noble Earl who produced this Bill, and on which a clear understanding might help us to take this business out of Party politics. I refer to the tied house.
  Up to a short time ago, every farm servant in Scotland who was married and had a family was engaged on May 28 for one year. At the end of that year he either continued his service in his

  925
  place or he sought another. However bad a master he had, he could not be disturbed in his house for a year. However bad a man he was, he could not be disturbed in his house for a year. If he was a bad workman he might have to seek another place, but he had to seek it on May 28, when every other married man was seeking a place. Therefore, under that system there was no chance of a man with a family being left without a shelter over his head. Recently, that system has, I am afraid, been rather broken into, partly through the opposition of the trade unions, and partly through the opposition of the farmers themselves. The farmers did not like having to give a man three months' notice, knowing that they would have to keep him for three months.
  I submit that originally that system was a very humane one. In fact, I can recall a Minister of Agriculture in your Lordships' House, on the opposite side to myself, turning to me across the Chamber in a debate and saying: "I know you are perfectly right, but you know what political feeling there is on the subject." I suggest to my noble friends opposite—and they are my noble friends, most of them—that it is worth while, in taking this matter out of politics, to turn a new eye, a non-political eye, on the tied house, to see what use it would or would not serve, remembering always that in Scotland, by age-long tradition and by practical experience of the extraordinarily difficult communications in deep snow, the farm servant must live on, or very nearly on, his work.
  There is one point in this Bill about which I feel critical, and I hope the noble Earl will forgive me if I mention it. It is the point about repairing of houses. Apparently if you have a scheme to repair a house, and that scheme costs £800, you obtain a grant of £400. If it costs £801 you get no grant at all, except by the grace of the Secretary of State. In these days it is quite impossible to forecast what building costs are going to be. Not long ago I had laid on me the task of repairing a house which happened to be a national monument. The local authority were anxious to help. I had the promise of a licence by a certain date: I had the contractor and I got the team all "on their toes," ready to commence the work by the assigned date. But no licence appeared. The whole business
  926
  relaxed, and it was ten days before I got the licence. The cost of course, was very much greater, partly because of the delay and partly because, naturally, I had my team up to the point and they were relaxed and it was very difficult to get the same enthusiasm again. I have no grievance. It happens that for the most part Her Majesty's Government will have to defray the extra cost entailed. But the point is that you cannot forecast in advance what the particular costs of any building operation will be.
  I am told that the reason for this provision is the shortage of materials, and that control must be retained over materials. I do not quite understand how this particular provision is going to conserve materials, but I am quite sure that if you get people wholeheartedly interested in this matter there are to be found materials the existence of which the Government have not the smallest notion. There is hardly a place in the country where somebody has not got his eye on some buiding material which can be made available to him when he gets permission to use it—because everybody in the country has building that he needs to do. It is extraordinary the amount of quite serviceable substitutes which you can get. I could give many examples, but I will refrain.
  I will, however, mention one fact. At any time, certainly for the past year, and I think for longer, it has been possible in London to buy unlicensed wood—at a price. I think it has been perfectly legally bought and sold, but if that wood is used, as it is, for building, it will mean very heavy costs. The heavy cost is due to the fact that there is licensed and unlicensed wood. I am sure that if the Government could find it possible—if not in this Bill in some later Bill—to show more confidence in the people who are doing the building, and to give them a freer hand in matters of this kind, it would be all to the good. In fact, if all the controls in this business could be taken off altogether I am sure there would be such a burst of well-directed energy as would go far to help the most pressing needs in housing. This is not the kind of legislation that one desires. At the moment there is a temptation to suppress items of cost.
  Perhaps I may give one other instance. A little time ago, when to spend more than £10 on the maintenance of a house

  927
  in London was not permitted, how many thousands of people must have contravened that regulation! If you have a sudden hole in your roof, and rain comes pouring in, and there is a danger of the ceiling coming down, you are not going to think about the £10 limit you are going to save your house. Indeed, your duty is to save your house, not to worry about regulations. I think that legislation on these lines is practically forcing a great many people to break the law and, ipso facto, to bring the law into disregard, if not into contempt. I hope, therefore that on a later occasion the Government will be able to do away with this particular form of grant, which I am bound to say I do not like very much, and put the matter on a proper basis. With that criticism, which I regard as important, even if it is not vital, I warmly welcome this Bill and the effects which I hope it will have.
  3.23 p.m.
  LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, may I at the outset apologise to the noble Earl opposite for misleading him to some extent by indicating that I did not intend to speak on this Bill to-day? The fact is that, having been persuaded to speak on another Bill which is to be dealt with to-day, I had become so absorbed in that measure that it seemed almost impossible to bring my mind on to this measure. But when one considers that I am not only a member of a Scottish town council but am also a representative of the council on the Counties and Cities Association I felt that I could not allow this Bill to be discussed to-day without my saying a word on it.
  I associate myself wholly with what my noble friend Lord Morrison has said, and with the emphasis that has been placed on the desire that this should not be treated as a Party political matter. What we are discussing to-day is not a Party political issue at all. What may be Party politics is any reference to the standards of housing, the numbers of houses that will be built for sale or to let, and so forth. But we are not dealing to-day, I suggest, with that Party political aspect; it is unimportant. What is important is the financial aspect of this Bill; and certainly the four city authorities—and they are not wholly of one political colour—are almost in despair at
  928
  the position in which they find themselves because of this housing problem. The noble Earl will know perfectly well that discussions on the increase of subsidy began before the raising of the bank rate; and there was at that time an admission that the amount of subsidy paid to local authorities in these cases was badly in need of review.
  The early part of those discussions began with the assumption that, partly as the result of the increase in cost, there might be a substantial increase in the subsidy. In the course of the negotiations the bank rate went up, and this added a large burden to the Central Government and to local authorities. When we came to discuss the amount of the increase in the subsidy the question was, what would be a reasonable amount to compensate local authorities for this double increase—the increase in cost and the increase in bank rate. After considerable discussion a figure was, if I may say so, insisted upon by the Scottish Office, a figure which amounted to less than the cost of the increased burden in rates alone. If the noble Earl says that on the figures he has submitted there is a portion in the subsidy to cover the extra cost, I answer that this is only on the assumption that the figure which he gave of the cost to the local authority is the correct figure, rather than that given by the four cities. On the basis of cost at which the finance officers of the four cities have arrived, the additional subsidy does not cover the cost by a fairly long way.
  There is a further difficulty in which the local authorities in Scotland find themselves. The noble Earl is well aware that the mere ownership of houses imposes a burden on the owner, because every time the rates go up he is faced with additional costs. Since in Glasgow alone the number of houses owned is, I think, in the nature of 80,000, it means a very substantial increase in the burden every time the rates go up. They went up in Glasgow by something like 2s. or so this last year, which means a substantial increase in the burdens of the local authorities, who are finding it difficult to know how to raise this money. They find they cannot possibly cope with this added burden. For this reason I am inclined to support my noble friend when he asks what principles we are following when we say that the rate

  929
  of interest to be charged by local authorities for the building of houses must be parallel with the increase in the bank rate.
  Is it not possible to draw a distinction between rates of interest charged on ordinary normal transactions and the rates of interest which the Public Works Loan Board will charge for money borrowed specifically for house building purposes? That would be one solution. We are aware that this would add to the already heavy burden on the taxpayer, but that is inevitable. This is a heavy burden and it has to be met somehow. The ratepayers have almost reached the limit of the burden they can carry, while the taxpayer also feels that he has reached the stage at which the burden is becoming almost unbearable. But we have to meet this expenditure. How are we to do it? I would strongly impress upon the noble Earl, Lord Home, that he should have another look at the figures and say to his colleagues: "All we are doing here is to recoup the local authorities for the increased burden in the rate of interest they have to bear; can we not also give them a little towards the additional cost of building, and so to some extent ease their burden?"
  The noble Earl is well aware that, when we came to review the subsidies under the 1946 Act, a difficulty arose because in that Act there had been no room for a review of the subsidies in an upward direction, and the Government hid behind that fact and said: "Sorry, we cannot help you. The law does not allow it"—I think I am right in saying that: if not, I shall gladly be corrected. The belief when that Bill was being considered was that prices would inevitably come down, as they had done in a similar period following the First World War. As we all know, that did not happen. Prices went up and continued to go up, and, while we hope that they will come down, they are not coming down at anything like the rate they did after the First World War. Why did not the Government take that into Consideration and say: "Since prices are still remaining at this high level, we will do something about it, and when prices come down and the subsidy has to be reviewed again, then we can, if necessary, lower it"? I think I have made that particular aspect clear.
  930
  There is one other point I should like to raise in regard to Clause 7, which increases from £4 to £8 the minimum amount which a local authority must contribute each year to their housing repairs account for each of the houses in their housing revenue account. We feel that to impose this 100 per cent. burden on local authorities, after the burden they are already carrying, is unfair. I think I am not committing any breach of confidence if I tell the noble Earl that when we in Glasgow were considering our annual estimates and tried to arrive at a figure to cover this increase, we not only hesitated to put in £8 as the figure for the increased cost of repairs, but we queried whether it was wise to put in the £7 which we ultimately did, because we thought we were thereby almost admitting that £7 was what we were prepared to pay. Could not the Government review that figure and say: "In view of the burden our local authorities are bearing, £8 is too much, and we might reduce it to £2 or £3 or some such figure as would make the burden less onerous than it is at the moment"? I apologise for taking up your Lordships' time on this matter. I think that is all I would ask the noble Earl to consider at this moment.
  3.33 p.m.
  THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I should like at once to thank the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, for a most thoughtful and helpful contribution to this debate, and also for widening the debate a little beyond the scope of the actual Bill which, as I said at the opening of the debate, has limited objectives. I am sure it has been to the advantage of all of us. I should be inclined to agree with the noble Lord that if we are to solve this urgent and pressing problem of housing finance, which is both national and local, if we are to solve the problem of rent control and of the repair of old buildings, particularly in the cities, there must be a great degree of Party co-operation. I hope, indeed I am sure, that his advances in this respect will be met with every sympathy from our side of the House.
  He dealt with the rather more general question of the housing difficulties of local authorities. My noble friend Lord Saltoun raised the particular point of the grant for the reconditioning of rural houses. The amount of money which

  931
  can be spent in this way and can rank for grant is a matter for regulation and can be varied by the Secretary of State at any time, so that this £800 is not a fixed figure. The reason why we took £800 as being a reasonable figure at this time was that, having had access to the costs which are encountered in reconditioning houses, we found that £1,000 was about the average cost for a local authority. But that, of course, included the cost of acquisition, which has to be cut out in the case of grants to private persons. Therefore, for the time being at any rate, we think that £800 is a reasonable maximum, but it is subject to variation by regulation.
  The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, was afraid that if he wanted to repair a house and only £800 was allowed, and if, in fact, the bill at the end of the day turned out to be £801, the grant would be disallowed. In cases of peculiar difficulty the Secretary of State has discretion to allow a greater expenditure, and I do not think that the noble Lord or any other landlord in Scotland will find the Department of Health ungenerous in this matter. But I would add, because I think perhaps it will help landlords and farmers, that in any case where the expenditure is under £3,000 and where the job will take under six months, we have an understanding with the industry that people can ask for a firm contract which is not subject to variation. Therefore, the effect will be that when the noble Lord makes an estimate, he should be able to base it on a firm contract, and so be able to get the grant. I think that will help in the ordinary cases of reconditioning.
  Before I close, may I say a word on what the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, has said? There has, of course, on this matter been a difference of opinion between the local authorities and the Government. It is no use denying that. The reasons why the local authorities have found themselves in difficulties are two: first, because of increased costs, and secondly, because of increased interest
  932
  rates. This Bill is, as I said, primarily designed to meet the increased interest rates; and, on our calculations, there is something over to help local authorities to meet increased costs. If the noble Lord had been a little more aggressive, I should have been tempted to say something about increased costs, because over the last six years before the present Government took office the cost of building a house rose by 33⅓ per cent. I might have reminded the noble Lord that in the opinion of a good many people that rise was due more than anything else to one of the most obstinate exercises in inflation that was ever conducted, even by a Socialist Chancellor of the Exchequer. The question of costs is an old one. In fact, for the last six years the noble Lord's own Government reviewed this question of subsidy every year, and every year, including the year 1951—only a year ago—they sent the local authorities away, saying that the national economy could not stand any increase. So at least we have been more considerate to the noble Lord and the Glasgow Town Council than his own Party were. But let us leave the Party scene on that point.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Having made the point.
  THE EARL OF HOME: We have made the point, but let us leave it at that. I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, and the Opposition, too, for the way in which they have received this Bill. It does certain things, although it does not satisfy all of us so far as the general housing situation is concerned. I repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, said, that if we are to deal satisfactorily with this problem, we shall need a high degree of co-operation. I hope that we shall have more debates on the wider theme and that something fruitful for the housing of the nation will come out of it.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  BRITISH ATOMIC BOMB TEST
  3.40 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now make a statement similar to one which has just been made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, in another place, about the Monte Bello explosion. It is as follows:
  "The object of the test was to investigate the effects of an atomic explosion in a harbour. The weapon was accordingly placed in H.M.S. 'Plym', a frigate of 1,450 tons, which was anchored in the Monte Bello Islands. Conditions were favourable and care was take to wait for southerly winds, so as to avoid the possibility of any significant concentration of radioactive particles spreading over the Australian mainland. Specimen structures of importance to civil defence and to the Armed Services were erected at various distances. Instruments were set up to record the effect of contamination, blast, heat flash, gamma ray flash and other factors of interest.
  "The weapon was exploded in the morning of the 3rd of October. Thousands of tons of water, and of mud and rock from the sea bottom, were thrown many thousands of feet into the air and a high tidal wave was caused. The effects of blast and radioactive contamination extended over a wide area and H.M.S. 'Plym' was vaporised except for some red-hot fragments which were scattered over one of the Islands and started fires in the dry vegetation. Very soon after the explosion two naval officers undertook the dangerous task of flying helicopters over the heavily contaminated lagoon where 'Plym' had lain. This was in order to take samples of the water, so that its radioactivity could be measured. After a longer interval, scientists and Service personnel in protective clothing entered the contaminated area to examine the effect and to recover records.
  "Technical descriptions of the performance of the bomb cannot, of course, be given. It may, however, be said that the weapon behaved exactly as expected and forecast in many precise details by Dr. W. G. Penney, whose services were of the highest
  934
  order. Scientific observations and measurements show that the weapon does not contradict the natural expectation that progress in this sphere would be continual. To give some idea of the character of the explosion perhaps I might say this. Normal blood temperature is 98⅖ degrees. When the flash first burst through the hull of 'Plym' the temperature was nearly 1,000,000 degrees. It was, of course, far higher at the point of explosion.
  "The explosion caused no casualties to the personnel of the expedition. No animals were used in the test. Apart from some local rats which were killed, no mammals were seen in the affected area, and such birds as there were had mostly been frightened away by the earlier preparations.
  "Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom wish to express their indebtedness for all the help received from Australia. Not only did the Australian Commonwealth allow us to use their territory for the test, but all branches of their Government, and particularly the Navy, Army and Air Force, gave us most valuable collaboration in the preparation and execution of this important experiment. All those concerned in the production of the first British atomic weapon are to be warmly congratulated on the successful outcome of this historic episode."
  The Prime Minister added:
  "I should no doubt pay my compliments to the Leader of the Opposition and the Party opposite for initiating it."
  3.44 p.m.
  EARL JOWITT: My Lords, it is obviously undesirable to ask for technical details, and I should be quite unable to understand the answers if I received them. But may I ask this question: am I right in assuming that the outcome of this test reflects the highest credit on the scientists and technologists concerned, who apparently have successfully overcome the complex, novel and intricate problems which had to be solved?
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: Yes indeed. The tribute which the noble and learned Earl has paid is amply justified in every particular.

  LICENSED PREMISES IN NEW TOWNS BILL
  3.45 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Swinton.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair]
  Clause 1:
  Repeal of State management of liquor trade in new towns
  1. Part I of the Licensing Act, 1949, shall cease to have effect so far as it provides for the extension of State management of the liquor trade to new towns; and accordingly the said Part I shall be amended in accordance with the activities of the Schedule to this Act."
  LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, after "towns" to insert:
  "not included in the Schedule (New Towns to be Exempted from the Provisions of this Act) to this Act;"
  The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Milner of Leeds. The purpose of this Amendment is to seek, even at this late stage, a compromise between those who believe that State management in new towns as a whole is the right thing and those who are opposed to State management and in favour of private enterprise. What this Amendment seeks to do is to continue the experiment of State management in a limited number of new towns—namely, those set out in the new Schedule which is incorporated in the Marshalled List of Amendments, that is to say at Aycliffe, Cwmbryn and Peterlee, and in such other new towns as may be set up in the future, where the Home Secretary thinks it expedient.
  There are at present some fourteen new towns, and as the Amendment is drafted the experiment will be limited to three out of the fourteen. Perhaps the Committee would like to know why these particular three have been chosen. The Committee will remember that on Second Reading considerable reference was made to the Royal Commission on Licensing, which reported in 1932. In their Report the Commission were, I think, unanimously of the opinion that the continuance of the Carlisle undertaking was desirable. They
  936
  felt that there was no doubt whatever that nowhere else in the country was so uniformly high a standard of management reached, and it was therefore their view that there was a good reason for the customer to be satisfied with the service offered. Those views are set out in various parts of the Report. The Commission recommended that it was desirable that public ownership should be applied elsewhere, in circumstances which would submit the system to a further test, both in a social and in a financial sense.
  That was in 1932. Since then it has not been possible to carry out the recommendation, which the Commission thought so desirable, to submit State management to this further test, and many of us feel that that test could suitably be applied in some of the new towns. I accept that the House has decided that it shall not be applied to all the new towns. It is true that the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, in replying to the debate the other day, referred to the next sentence of the recommendation of the Royal Commission—namely,
  "An area in which there is such superfluity of licences as to make it doubtful whether our reduction proposals would meet the case might be selected for this purpose."
  He also pointed out, as of course is perfectly true, that that second sentence did not necessarily point to new towns. Whilst I think that is perfectly true, it is also true to say that in 1932 there were no new towns. Furthermore, this second sentence is not a recommendation but a suggestion that this system might be applied in certain areas. I think that, if properly read, it could be construed as being applicable to some new towns, but I do not want to make too much of that point. The Commission could not have applied their minds to the point whether new towns were suitable places for this extension, because, in fact, there were no new towns then.
  On the occasion of the Second Reading my noble friend Lord Milner and I gave reasons for submitting that the new towns were particularly suitable places for an extension, if there was to be one. To-day we put forward an even more specific case—that of the three new towns referred to in the Schedule—Aycliffe. Cwmbryn and Peterlee—as being exceptionally suitable. If we are to have an extension Aycliffe is specially

  937
  suitable, I suggest, because there are no licences of any kind in the new town, ether on-licences or off-licences, and you would, therefore, start with a clean sheet. As regards Peterlee, there are no off-licences and there are only two on-licences. So, again, it will be a relatively simple matter, if an extension is desirable, to apply it at Peterlee. Cwmbryn is in a different position. It has twenty-three on-licences and seven off-licences, but by virtue of the fact that Cwmbryn, as its name implies, is in Wales (as a matter of fact, it is in South Wales), where the temperance conditions are rather peculiar, where conditions are really sui generis, particularly in the county of Monmouth, it is thought that suitable extension might be made in Cwmbryn new town.
  These three new towns would provide varied experience. There is one new town where there are no licences at all, one where there are very few, and a third where there are a number but where the licensing conditions are rather peculiar. And there would be eleven other new towns where public-houses would he under private enterprise. I feel that if there is any intention of trying to carry out, at this late stage, the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Licensing this is a suitable opportunity and that possibly it represents the last chance we shall get. I am still in hopes that Her Majesty's Government will see their way to endeavour to apply the recommendations of the Commission to these new towns. Alternatively, if they accepted the principle, but thought that my selection in this Amendment could be improved upon, other new towns being deemed preferable for the extension, that would be so much the better. As I said on the occasion of the Second Reading, I have given some of the reasons why I thought the extension to new towns would be desirable and would make a useful experiment. I do not wish to repeat those reasons now; they will be within the recollection of the noble Earl, and possibly also within the recollection of the Committee.
  There is one other point which I might add. In another place, a suggestion was made—I think it was on the Report stage of the Bill—that there were cases where the consuming public had not been supplied with beer of the strength, or
  938
  even with the quantity, which they were entitled to expect. I said during the Second Reading debate in your Lordships' House, and I repeat, that I do not for a moment believe that it is the practice of brewers either to adulterate their beer or to give short measure. That is certainly not their practice. On the other hand, no one can deny that there are black sheep in every community, and if in a particular instance, or in a number of instances, bottles of beer have been analysed by a public analyst and have been found to be wanting, there is some case to answer; and the public mind will be somewhat disturbed by those facts. But it seemed to me that in the new towns at any rate there would be some further safeguards if there were State management. The State would have no particular interest in any proprietary brands, and the State could take steps, if it thought necessary, to have those brands analysed from time to time, to ensure that they were of the appropriate strength.
  As regards draught beer, it was not the intention, necessarily, that under State management the State should brew its own beer. It certainly was the intention not to limit the beer to one particular type, as would be the case in a tied house. It is possible, of course, under State management to give to the customer a greater variety of beer at each public-house or each licensed establishment than would be possible under the tied-house system, and I should like to say just a few words on that. Our debate turned to a considerable extent on the desirability of giving the customer the greatest possible freedom of choice. The case made by the noble Earl and others was that with a variety of brewers operating in one particular area the customer had some freedom of choice, in that if he did not like the beer at one place he could go to another. That is true. There may be half a dozen or a dozen different brewers operating in one particular town, and it is right that a customer should be able to go from one public-house to another to satisfy his preference. But that might be very inconvenient. It might mean that he would have to travel long distances.
  In another place, examples were given of the kind of distances that might be involved. A case specifically mentioned was that of Welwyn Garden City, where a

  939
  customer might have to travel two miles each way in order to obtain a particular sort of beer which he fancied. It certainly would be more convenient to the customer to be able to get the different varieties of draught beer at each of the licensed houses which were State managed. From that point of view, I submit that State management might be used as an experiment, with a view to making the provision of intoxicants more convenient for the customers themselves. I do not rest my case primarily on that. I rest it on the desirability—and this, I think, the Royal Commission on Licensing abundantly made clear—of an extension of State management to places other than Carlisle, and on the ground that here is an opportunity to carry out this extension, perhaps on a considerably smaller scale than was contemplated under the 1949 Licensing Act. I say that, if we are to carry out this extension, these new towns afford us the opportunity of doing so. For those reasons, I hope that the noble Earl will not lightly set aside this Amendment but will give it very serious consideration. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 7, after ("towns") insert the said words.—(Lord Silkin.)
  4.0 p.m.
  LORD ROCHESTER: I have no wish to delay your Lordships for many minutes, but I was unavoidably prevented from being present on the occasion of the Second Reading of this Bill and I want to support my noble friend Lord Silkin in this Amendment. As we cannot have all the advantages of the 1949 Act, I urge the Government to give us this concession at least, because it would admit the principle for which we contend. I dissent from the point of view that the Carlisle experiment has been a failure. It has certainly been a success. It has been a success even under the competition in those towns in which some licences are held by the State management authority and some by private individuals. The advantage of State ownership with disinterested management is that it removes the incentive to increase sales. I submit that a value created by the community through the collective effort of the community should not be handed over to private enterprise to exploit. Under this Bill there is no protection for the tenant of a tied house
  940
  in any shape or form. He can be charged a higher price for his beer than the same brewer is prepared to charge to either a free house or a club. The tenants of tied houses ought to be protected from even the possibility of such exploitation.
  I am opposed to tied houses not only in new towns but also elsewhere. In this at least I am consistent, for I hold in my hand a copy of a Bill
  "to provide for the abolition of tied houses and to secure freedom for holders of licences for the sale of ale, beer and spirituous liquors"
  which I introduced into the House of Commons so long ago as May 28, 1906. It was read a first time and ordered to be printed, but, unfortunately, I was not successful in the ballot for Private Members' Bills, so it never had a chance of reaching the Statute Book. The Royal Commission on Licensing said that the tied house system has led to many evils, and recommended that legislation should be introduced to alter it. I am in favour of barring tied houses as I am in favour of freedom in most other spheres. I urge the Government to give very sympathetic consideration to this Amendment and plead with them to accept it.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has moved this Amendment in an agreeable and felicitous spirit. If I answer him shortly, it is not out of any discourtesy; it is be cause the issue raised by this Amendment, though one of great importance, is a simple one. As he himself admitted, the short, simple issue is the issue which the House decided upon on Second Reading. The noble Lord said, very reasonably and fairly, that if we are going to have further experiment in State ownership and State running of public houses, the new towns are the best places to try it. But, of course, the whole point of this Bill is to decide the issue of whether or not there should be that further extension, and the House has decided against it.
  The noble Lord, Lord Rochester, of course, is quite frank upon the subject. He told us he was going to deliver to us, as he did, the speech he would have delivered on Second Reading had he been in the House when the Bill was considered. I am not quite sure whether it was not the speech he meant to make on Second Reading in 1906, if his Bill had been picked in the ballot. At any

  941
  rate, it was a perfectly frank speech. He said he hated brewers. I am not sure he did not even say that he hated beer. I hope he did not go so far a; that, because I should not like to join him in that condemnation. And, of course, he said the State ought to run it all. That, indeed, is the simple issue of this Amendment. It is true that it says we should try it only in three towns, which are selected by name, and then in any other towns where the Home Secretary might think it was a good thing. But the simple issue before the House in this Bill is not a dependence of this matter on local circumstances, but the plain issue: should we or should we not extend this State enterprise? The view we take is that it is not a good plan to extend this State enterprise and that it does not depend on one town or another. We think that the planning for what is right for these new towns can better be done by the joint committees of licensing justices and development corporations provided in the Bill, and by leaving the provision of liquor to private enterprise; and the House has endorsed this.
  The noble Lord gave us a sad picture of one or two public-houses he had been into where he received either short measure or indifferent beer. I am sorry that he did. But I do not think he would go so far as to say that with State enterprise we should have stronger and better beer. I hope we can be sure of getting the amount we paid for. But if somebody sells you short measure, in beer or in whisky or in anything else, the remedy is a much simpler one than State enterprise. He can be taken to court, where he will get short shrift. I do not think that is a very relevant argument. As the noble Lord, himself admitted, this Amendment tries to graft an exception on to the principle which the House has endorsed. In our view, it does not admit of that exception. We have the simple issue: do we or do we not want State enterprise? We do not, and hitherto the House has supported us in that view. Therefore, I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: I should like to say a word in reply to the noble Viscount. The object of the Committee stage of a Bill is to introduce exceptions to a general principle which may have
  942
  been laid down on Second Reading. There is no rule whatever to the contrary and I am sure the noble Viscount did not wish to give the impression that as the House had generally approved of the principle of no State management in the new towns, there cannot be exceptions to that principle.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: Of course, the Amendment is quite in order. I was objecting to it on merits.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: It seems to us on these Benches that here is an opportunity perhaps for a simple extension of the Carlisle experiment. It would be an experiment in a small way where, as the Royal Commission said, circumstances afforded such an opportunity. As my noble friend Lord Silkin said, the opportunity presented by the new towns may never arise again. Here are at least two towns—I am not quite sure about the third, because there the principle seems to be different—in one of which there are no licensed premises and in the other only two off-licences. Therefore, it would seem advantageous, irrespective of one's views "Aye" or "No" on the general principle to carry out what an eminent Royal Commission twenty years ago advised should be done. I feel it would be a matter for regret if that opportunity were not taken.
  It would appear from what the noble Viscount has said that in no circumstances would the present Government, or those who sit behind him, agree to an extension of State management. That goes quite contrary to the recommendations of the Royal Commission, and quite contrary to the Carlisle experiment, which I think I am right in saying was introduced by a Liberal Government, and certainly not by a Labour Government. To give a flat refusal to continue an experiment in a different sphere, under rather special and favourable circumstances, seems to me to be a very wrong attitude to take. I still hope that the Committee may think it right in these special circumstances to enable that experiment to be made. New towns and particularly these new towns will presumably be occupied by young people. If there are no licensed houses there are presumably few old people there. It will be a new population altogether. It does seem advantageous from every point of view and an opportunity that ought not to be missed.

  943
  I hope therefore that the Government and this Committee may reconsider the position.
  4.20 p.m.
  LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY moved, after "towns" to insert:
  "and in any new town the development corporation of that town may exercise in respect of the liquor trade in that town any of the powers conferred upon the Secretary of State in regard to that trade in a state management district and no person, other than the development corporation or any person acting on behalf of that corporation, shall sell intoxicating liquor by retail in any new town;"
  The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Milner of Leeds and myself I beg to move the Amendment which stands in our names. The object of this Amendment is to give the Government another opportunity of allowing some elasticity and experiment
  On Question: Whether the said words shall be there inserted?
  Their Lordships divided: Contents, 26; Not-Contents, 73.
  in respect of the arrangements under this Bill. I am rather afraid, from the almost intractable attitude which the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, took up on the last Amendment, that he will not be any more helpful on this one. The Amendment opens up a certain avenue for him, if he is prepared to take it, in that it proposes to leave the question of whether there should be a certain amount of experiment in these new towns to these development corporations themselves. After all, the development corporation, having the responsibility of building up the new towns, are in a better position to judge whether the conditions in the particular new towns for which they are responsible are such as to make it advisable to introduce State management.

  CONTENTS

  Baldwin of Bewdley, E.

  Burden, L.

  McEntee, L.

  Jowitt, E.

  Chorley, L. [Teller.]

  Milner of Leeds, L.

  Crook, L.

  Morrison, L.

  St. Davids, V.

  Greenhill, L.

  Pakenham, L.

  Stansgate, V.

  Haden-Guest, L.

  Pethick-Lawrence, L.

  Henderson, L.

  Rochester, L.

  Archibald, L.

  Kenswood, L.

  Shepherd, L.

  Bingham, L.(E. Lucan.) [Teller.]

  Lawson, L.

  Silkin, L.

  Lucas of Chilworth, L.

  Wise, L.

  Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.)

  Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS

  Simonds, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Munster, E.

  Douglas, L. (E. Home.)

  Onslow, E. [Teller.]

  Ennisdale, L.

  Sutherland, D.

  Rothes, E.

  Fairfax of Cameron, L.

  Wellington, D.

  St. Aldwyn, E.

  Fraser of North Cape, L.

  Selkirk, E.

  Gifford, L.

  Cholmondeley, M.

  Hacking, L.

  Reading, M.

  Allenby, V.

  Hampton, L.

  Willingdon, M.

  Bridgeman, V.

  Hankey, L.

  Buckmaster, V.

  Hawke, L.

  Albemarle, E.

  Furness, V.

  Hayter, L.

  Alexander of Tunis, E.

  Harcourt, V.

  Hindlip, L.

  Bathurst, E.

  Hudson, V.

  Howard of Glossop, L.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Monsell, V.

  Kilmarnock, L.

  Bessborough, E.

  Swinton, V.

  Leathers, L.

  Birkenhead, E.

  Trenchard, V.

  Leconfield, L.

  Brooke and Warwick, E.

  Llewellin, L.

  Buckinghamshire, E.

  Aldenham, L.

  Milverton, L.

  Craven, E.

  Ashton of Hyde, L.

  Newall, L.

  De La Warr, E.

  Barnby, L.

  Ormonde, L. (M. Ormonde.)

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

  Blackford, L.

  Remnant, L.

  Brassey of Apethorpe, L.

  Rochdale, L.

  Dundonald, E.

  Carrington, L.

  St. Just, L.

  Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

  Cherwell, L.

  Sandys, L.

  Howe, E.

  Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

  Teynham, L.

  Iveagh, E.

  Cozens-Hardy, L.

  Thurlow, L.

  Lindsay, E.

  De L'Isle and Dudley, L.

  Wolverton, L.

  Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

  Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

  Not long ago, when noble Lords opposite were sitting on this side of the House,

  945
  they used to stress the importance of elasticity, and I suggest that this is an excellent opportunity for them, now that they form the Government, to allow some elasticity and to enable such development corporations as they think fit to introduce State management into their particular town. It may be that they will not wish to do so, but at any rate this Amendment gives them the chance. I entirely agree with what was said on the last Amendment, about the importance of experiment, and with the view that was expressed by more than one noble Lord as to the value of the experiment which had been conducted over the last thirty years or more in the city of Carlisle. Let it not be said that it is only the people who are interested iii the teetotal cause who think that Carlisle has been a success. It is a city which I have had opportunity and cause to visit on a number of occasions, and it has always struck me that the arrangements in that city for supplying beer and alcohol generally are excellent—and I speak as one who likes his pint on occasion.
  I would also suggest this point to the Government—here I speak as a Back Bencher, and must not be taken as in any way committing the future Government, although on this particular matter there is a great deal of feeling in the Party to which I have the honour to belong. If the present Government are not prepared to be reasonable and to allow some elasticity and experiment, they will not find it easy to come back—and, after all, they are not going to be occupying those Benches for a very long term of years—and say: "Well look here, experiment is going on in this town, in that town and in the other town. Would it not be better to give it a fair run before you decide to go back to the provisions of the 1949 Act?" If they are going to be intractable and take up a non possumus attitude, they will find it very difficult on a future occasion to ask, in their turn, for a reasonable experiment to be conducted until it is possible to tell whether or not the experiment has been a success. I will not take up the time of the Committee any further, because, after the speech we heard a few minutes ago, I do not imagine that the noble Viscount is likely to be helpful. Therefore, I will just move the Amendment standing in the name of my noble friend and myself.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 7, after ("towns") insert the said words.—(Lord Chorley.)
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: The noble Lord guessed right the very first time! I am afraid that I am not going to ask the Committee to accept this Amendment. The noble Lord said that here was another avenue which we might explore. I am afraid—and I think the Committee will agree with me when they see the true meaning of this Amendment—that this is a much less attractive avenue than the one down which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, asked us to wander. After all, in what this proposes to do the basic principle is the same. It says, "Let its have this State enterprise," but does so in a much worse form. If there is to be a State enterprise in drink at all. I am quite sure that it is better run by the State management entity, as in Carlisle, than as the noble Lord proposes in this Amendment, by the corporation of the new towns. Observe what that would mean. It is certainly not the function of the corporations of these new towns, who are themselves temporary bodies, to engage in this work. Where a new town develops, the functions devolve upon the local authority. Therefore, what the noble Lord is proposing to do here is not to continue or expand the Carlisle experiment, but to embark on municipal enterprise in drink. Whatever may be said for or against the Carlisle experiment, I think there is extraordinarily little to be said for municipal trading in drink, which is what this Amendment means. It would mean that the drink trade of the area would be brought directly into local politics. I doubt whether even those on the opposite side of the House who would like to see the Carlisle experiment extended—and I appreciate their sincerity in that—would really face up to giving the local authorities the power to engage in the drink traffic. I am afraid, therefore, that I must ask the House to reject this Amendment.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: It seems to me unfortunate that the noble Viscount should adopt such a doctrinaire attitude on this matter. The Act of 1949 provided for State management. That Act is now to be repealed, and another Bill is brought in which provides for private enterprise to operate

  947
  in new towns. Here is an opportunity where perhaps a middle course might, with advantage, be adopted. It seems to me that, as a general principle, one Government ought not, when it comes in, immediately to take upon itself the responsibility of repealing all important legislation carried out by the immediately preceding Government, and to do so without any real trial of the principles set out in the previous Government's Act of Parliament. That is what this Bill proposes to do, and it has seemed to some of us that there should be a middle course. I think I am right in saying that the development corporation is not a municipal body at all but is appointed by the Minister.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I did not say that. I said it was a temporary body and that when it had discharged its functions it would be succeeded, and its functions would in future be discharged by the local authority. The development corporation could not be kept in being just to run the drink trade, and that would mean that the drink trade would have to be run by the local authority.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: I am not sure that that would he so in any case. We are looking further ahead. This Bill deals with private enterprise, on the one band, and State enterprise on the other. The local authorities are to be responsible for quite a number of years. After all the local authority is responsible for roads and streets, shops, various public offices and so on, and it would seem that they should equally have the right to decide on the conduct of the licensed premises in the same area. I think it is a matter for regret that this middle course which has been suggested should not be adopted in consequence of the doctrinaire attitude of the Government. It seems unfortunate that some compromise could not be accepted on these or some of the other lines which have been suggested.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  4.33 p.m.
  LORD GREENHILL LORD GREENHILL moved, after subsection (1) to insert:
  "(2) If at any time within two calendar months of the Act coming into force, the development corporation of any new town, or one hundred persons registered as local government electors in any new town, shall
  948
  require that a poll be held upon the question as to whether the new town should be excluded from the provisions of the fore- going subsection, a poll shall be held, and, it the majority of the local government electors in the new town so resolve on a poll taken in accordance with the Ninth Schedule of the Local Government Act. 1933, this Act shall cease to apply to the new town. The Secretary of State may by order prescribe the form in which the development corporation or the local government electors shall require a poll to be taken and may by order adapt the said Ninth Schedule to the Local Government Act. 1933, so as to provide for a poll to be taken as aforesaid."
  The noble Lord said: I beg leave to move the Amendment which stands in my name. A few moments ago the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, read a statement, the implications of which may be of fearful consequence in one sense yet hopeful in another. Now we are discussing this Licensed Premises in New Towns Bill, and I wonder whether noble Lords opposite feel, as I do, that it is almost an anticlimax that, after discussing things of such tremendous import, we should now be discussing this comparatively trivial matter. I ask myself whether the apparently larger number of noble Lords now opposite is due to the statement which was made a few minutes ago or to their interest in what this Bill proposes to encourage. All my Amendment does is to propose that the opinion of the public in the new towns—that is to say, the opinions of those who are most concerned—be asked. It seeks to provide that they shall have a say in the question of whether or not the licensed trade in the towns shall continue under State management or shall continue under private enterprise. That is all the Amendment asks, and it gives as a precedent of what can be done what has been done under the Local Government Act of 1933, the Ninth Schedule of which is probably better known to the noble Viscount than it is to me.
  We on this side are following a similar course to that which was followed by the Opposition when the 1949 Licensing Act was being considered. On that occasion, I gather, noble Lords opposite took the view that people in these new towns should have the opportunity of being able to say whether they wished to contract out of the conditions of the new towns or whether they would remain. All we are asking is that the people shall be given the same opportunity in the opposite direction. It is, I suggest, a highly

  949
  democratic method of ascertaining what the people want and of satisfying their needs, and I hope that in the circumstances the noble Viscount will be prepared to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 9, at end, insert the said subsection.—(Lord Greenhill.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, has proposed an Amendment that two months after this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament any new towns should be able to take a poll to decide the form in which licences should be issued. This is similar, I think, to the local option poll which can be taken in Scotland, though not in England. That is a principle to which we attach great importance in Scotland and we think it right and proper. I think there might be much to be said, in principle, for the noble Lord's Amendment, but there seems to me, one absolutely cardinal difficulty about it. At the present time these towns hardly exist. In most cases they are only a minute fraction of what they will eventually be. There are some instances in which there is in existence a town of some character which is eventually to be extended to include perhaps 80,000 people. But at the present juncture it is really not practicable to suggest that these people who, by chance or otherwise, happen to be resident in that area can speak authoritatively with the democratic voice which the noble Lord has emphasised.
  LORD SILKIN: The noble Earl will surely remember that on the Second Reading he made that very case by referring to meetings in the new towns, at which people gave their views.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Certainly. People may meet anywhere and express their views, and we in this House pay attention to them. I do not suggest that that was a decisive issue; I said it was indicative, so far as it went, that in certain towns this measure was unpopular. That is the central difficulty this particular Amendment. I could give population figures. In some cases a town which will number perhaps 40,000 to 50,000 has at present only about 2,000, or fewer; and to say that these people should have the authority to give a decision on this matter is wrong. Otherwise,
  950
  I do not differ at all from what the mover of the Amendment has said. After all, noble Lords decided that the development corporations should be appointed by the Minister. I think it regrettable to say that the people resident at present are necessarily competent to speak for those who may come in future.
  LORD GREENHILL: If this Amendment were worded:
  "… excluding the period of two calendar months permit a poll to be taken at any time …"
  would that satisfy the noble Earl?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That is a most interesting proposal. But why should it be confined to new towns? Why should not the people in any town take that view and pass a resolution saying they would like the "pubs" in their town to be controlled by the State? Why should that not be the case if it were felt that it was so desired? Noble Lords opposite had the opportunity for six years to do this but they did not think fit to do it.
  LORD SHEPHERD: I am very much interested in the argument which has been used for turning down this Amendment. Because they are small in number we are not to permit people in the new towns to choose for themselves what kind of arrangement shall be made. They need, apparently, to be taken care of. There are two ways of doing this. The late Government, in 1949, decided that, because the new towns were in that condition, the corporations should have the responsibility of looking after those small populations, which corporations, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has said, are temporary in character, and therefore must in a few years present a problem of their own for settlement. We believed, and still believe, in the establishment of these corporations to look after the growing populations and not to pin them down. But surely that is the reverse of the attitude which the Government are now taking up. The Government are now taking up the attitude that licensed premises shall be handed over to the brewing interests, and the brewing interests are under no dubiety about the permanency of their tenure. They are not looking upon the gifts in this Bill as of a temporary character. They will take their stand on this point, that,

  951
  having been presented with these gifts, they should retain them permanently because of the work that they will have done. I am sorry that we on these Benches have to offer different opinions from those which have been offered on the other side of the House, but it seems to me that, if we are engaged in experiments in these new towns, and have an organisation responsible to the Government for their development, we should leave the control of the liquor traffic with them for the time being, and not hand it over to private exploitation.
  On Question, Amendment negatived
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:
  Committees to determine distribution of licensed premises in new towns
  2.—(1) For the purposes of determining the number, nature and distribution of licensed premises in new towns there shall he a committee constituted in accordance with the following provisions of this section for each new town or, if it appears to the Secretary of State that by reason of the proximity of any two new towns it is expedient that one committee should be appointed for them and the Secretary of State by order so directs, for those two new towns.
  (2) Any such committee shall consist of a chairman appointed by the Secretary of State as being an independent person, and of such even number as may be prescribed by order of the Secretary of State of other members appointed as follows, that is to say—

  (a) one half shall be appointed by the development corporation for the new town for which the committee is constituted or, if the committee is constituted for more than one new town, by the development corporations for each of the new towns in such proportions as may be specified by order of the Secretary of State;

  (b) the remainder shall be appointed from among the number of, and by, the licensing justices for the licensing district comprising the area for which the committee is constituted or, where that area comprises, or comprises land included in, more than one licensing district, from among the number of, and by, the licensing justices for each of those districts in such proportions as the Secretary of State may by order determine:

  Provided that where the said area comprises part only of a licensing district, and it appears to the Secretary of State that by reason of the small extent of that part of the district and having regard to its nature the licensing justices have insufficient interest in the working of the committee to justify their representation thereon, it shall not be necessary for the committee to include any licensing justice for that district.
  (3) The appointment of a member of any such committee shall be for such term, not
  952
  exceeding three years, as may be determined by or under an order of the Secretary of State, with or without eligibility for being reappointed, as may be so determined, and shall be subject to such conditions as may be so determined.
  (4) The quorum of any such committee shall be such as may be determined by order of the Secretary of State.
  (5) In the event of an equality of votes on any question, the chairman shall have a casting vote, but save as aforesaid the chairman shall not have a vote.
  (6) Subject to the provisions of the two last foregoing subsections, the procedure of any such committee shall be such as the committee may determine.
  (7) The proceedings of any such committee shall not be invalidated by reason of any vacancy therein or any defect in the appointment of a member thereof.
  (12) Any order under this section may be varied or revoked by a subsequent order thereunder.
  LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved to leave out subsections (2) to (7), inclusive, and to insert:
  "(2) The Secretary of State shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act or the coming into operation of the order under section one of the New Towns Act. 1946, designating the site of the new town, whichever is the later, consult with the development corporation of the new towns or town affected, with every local authority whose area includes any part of any new town affected and with the licensing justices for every licensing district which includes any part thereof, and also with such other persons and bodies of persons as appear to him requisite to be consulted as to the constitution of the committee, and shall then prepare a draft scheme for the constituting of the committee.
  (3) Any scheme made under the foregoing subsection—

  (a) shall specify the number of members of the committee, the persons by whom and manner in which the several members are to be appointed, and the period for which they are to hold office;

  (b) may contain provisions with respect to the manner in which the scheme may be varied and as to the duration thereof and the making of a new scheme to take effect on the expiry of the previous scheme

  (4) The scheme shall have effect when confirmed by the Secretary of State either as submitted by him in draft or subject to such modifications as may be made by him in consequence of any representations made to him in accordance with the provisions of the foregoing subsection."
  The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Charley. If noble Lords will look at Clause 2, they will see that this sets out the machinery for planning the provision of

  953
  licensed premises in new towns. We are all agreed, on both sides, of the House, that the provision of licensed premises should be planned. Clause 2 sets out the conception of the machinery that shall he provided, and the Amendment sets out an alternative conception. We agree on both sides, I think, that as many people as possible who are concerned should have the opportunity at some time of expressing their views on the question of
  "the number, nature and distribution of licensed premises in new towns."
  There we are on common ground. The Government believe that that can best be achieved by setting up a committee, to be presided over by an independent chairman. One half of that committee is to be appointed by the development corporation and one half is to be appointed from representatives of the licensing justices; and thereafter anybody who is interested should have the right to express his or her views and, if necessary, to object and to have a public inquiry.
  The purpose of this Amendment is to lay down a less rigid method of setting up the committee in the first place. As the clause stands, the Home Secretary is committed to setting up the committee in this way: one half of the members are to be licensing justices and one half are to be persons appointed by the development corporation, and there is no guarantee whatever that the people who are really concerned will get on to this committee. We do not know what the size of the committee will be. There is no indication in this clause, but I do not complain of that. I do not know whether it is to be a small or a large committee. If it is a small committee, the probabilities are that the representatives of the development corporation would, in practice, be members of the corporation. If it is a larger committee, I imagine that some of the representatives would he members of the development corporation and some would be people from outside, but there is no guarantee that that will be the case. After all, there are a great many people outside who would be greatly concerned about the number, nature and location of these licensed houses.
  The noble Earl, in speaking on the last Amendment, said that there were some new towns where the population was very
  954
  small. That, of course, is perfectly true. On the other hand, he will agree with me that there are some where the population is large—for instance, at Hemel Hempstead there is an existing population of over 20,000, and at places like Crawley, Stevenage and Harlow the population is considerably over 5,000 and is growing every day. There are many people, both in the new towns and in the locality, who have an interest in the kind of licensed houses that will be going up, and these people ought to be on the committee at the earliest stage.
  The purpose of this Amendment is to provide that the Home Secretary should eventually, after hearing everybody's views, set up the committee and appoint the particular people who, in his opinion, would be best suited for the purpose of making a decision. Under the provisions at present in the Bill, people who are not on the committee—people such as members of churches, and those concerned with education, social services and so on—will have their chance of putting forward their views only after the scheme has been put forward by the development corporation and has been approved by the committee and by the Minister of Housing and Local Government. They will then have their opportunity of objecting only at a time when the scheme has been crystallised, when people's views about it will have become set and when, quite often, it will be difficult to retract without losing face. Under the Amendment which I am moving, however, all these people will have their say at an early stage, and the scheme will be eventually prepared in the light of their views. The Minister of Housing and Local Government will have heard what they all have to say, and will then approve the scheme in the light of their views.
  I think it is unfortunate, particularly in a new town, that differences of opinion on matters of this kind, on the provision of licensed premises, should be the subject of a public local inquiry, with people briefing counsel, with feelings becoming exacerbated and the Minister eventually having to come down on one side or the other. I think it is much better if these things can be settled inside the committee, where all views are heard privately and where eventually a decision is arrived at. I hope that the noble Earl will see his way to think again about the method

  955
  of procedure (after all, it is only a method of procedure), to see whether the views set forth in this Amendment are not preferable to those in the clause itself. It may well be that improvements can be made in the drafting of the Amendment; but there is another stage to this Bill, and if the drafting can be improved, the noble Earl, with all the resources at his disposal, is in a position to do it.
  I hope he will appreciate that while we are seeking to achieve the same objective of getting a scheme for the provision of refreshment houses in the new towns which will meet with general approval and will meet the needs of the new town, the only difference between us is as to which method is preferable, that set out in Clause 2 or that indicated in the Amendment. I think the method set out in the Amendment is more democratic. It has the advantage of giving more people who are concerned with the new towns a voice in the determination of what licensed premises shall be there, which is a very desirable thing. In these days I believe that the basis of democracy is to get as many people as possible intimately concerned with the administration of the locality, and this is one method of doing it: not of dividing people up into those who are running the show and those who are objecting at a public inquiry.
  I hope, therefore, that if the noble Earl does not see his way to accepting this Amendment, he will give it serious consideration between now and the next stage, and not insist dogmatically upon the clause as it stands in the Bill. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 2, line 1, leave out subsections (2), (3), (4), (5), (6) and (7) and insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Silkin.)
  4.53 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The Amendment which the noble Lord has moved was, with the exception of one subsection, moved on the Report stage in another place, and was discussed for about an hour. It is taken from the 1949 Act, and I think I am correct in saying that in fact it is the basis on which the advisory councils exist at the present time. But I should point out at the beginning that the function of the advisory councils is very different from that which the committee
  956
  under this Bill has to perform. Admittedly, besides certain preliminary tasks, the main duty of the advisory council was, as I think the noble Lord will agree, to act as a link between the State who were running the licensed premises and the public who were interested as possible consumers; whereas this is definitely and positively a planning committee. It is intended that the planning should be done by the committee itself, and not by the State management organisation at all. Therefore, the function of these two committees is entirely different. For that reason, what I might call a rather more definite and a clear-cut committee is required to take executive decisions.
  The noble Lord suggests that there are people who should be in at an early stage. I wish he would explain just what type of people he means, because under the clause as drafted, you have on one side the members of the corporation, or their representatives, who are selected by the Minister—and the Minister, of whatever political complexion he may be, would, I am sure, do his best to select people who know the locality. On the other side you have the representatives of the magistrates, who elect their number to sit—it may be four, five or six. Those are two separate sources from which I should have thought there was a fair chance of getting pretty good people in at a very early stage.
  LORD SILKIN: Does the noble Earl really mean that those people appointed by the development corporation have to be approved by the Minister? I see nothing here which states that. Is it not the fact that the development corporation appoints them?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am not suggesting that for a moment. The noble Lord was anxious that certain people (I am not clear who they were) should get in at an early stage. It is perhaps difficult to define that, but I am saying that they can come in as representing, on the one hand, the magistrates or, on the other hand, the corporation, which is appointed by the Minister. I suggest, with respect, that there is a very fair chance of any outstanding man of judgment, respect and understanding of these problems getting on this committee at a very early stage. That I think is important. I should like to draw attention

  957
  to something else—the point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, earlier. When he was moving his Amendment, he said that the corporation understood the locality; that it was their job to do so—I want the noble Lord to note carefully what I am about to say. Under this scheme what guarantee is there that the corporation would have a reasonable opportunity of expressing its views? As a matter of interest, the advisory councils which have been built up under this Act contain, I believe, three or four members of the corporation and a committee of twenty. The noble Lord, who has been very interested in this matter, will realise that that sort of representation of the corporation, in a matter which fundamentally affects its planning duties to the new towns, would be quite unsatisfactory.
  I should like to recapitulate what we are trying to do. When we were first faced with the task of deciding how to license the new towns, there were, roughly specking, two alternatives of an extreme character. The matter could have been left entirely in the hands of the magistrates to judge, as if nothing had happened, or it could have been left entirely to the decision of a Government Department. That is what the 1949 Act did. What we have tried to do is to compromise between those alternatives. We have had a number of appeals for compromise and, with respect, the scheme under the Bill is a compromise. On the one hand, we have taken the corporation representatives, who are fundamentally interested in the planning, and we have added to them an equal representation of the magistrates, who are supposed to be thoroughly acquainted with, and to understand, the problems of licensing. We have set them up in one committee, half and half, and we have set what we call an independent chairman on top. It seems to me that that gives a fair balance. For that reason, if the noble Lord thinks it out, I am sure he will agree that it is a more balanced way of proceeding. It is also more democratic, because it is the people concerned with the place—either the development corporation, who are immediately concerned, or the magistrates, who are more directly there—who make the choice.
  958
  I wondered just why this Amendment appealed to the noble Lord. Lord Silkin. There was one thing which he mentioned, which does not come out in the Amendment but which I think explains the reason for its appeal to him. He apparently wanted the whole of this committee to be appointed by the Secretary of State—at any rate, he suggested it. I believe that what the noble Lord has in mind is a committee entirely appointed by the Secretary of State, instead of one with which the Secretary of State has nothing to do at all. I think the arrangement we have is more satisfactory in that respect, and I suggest that probably any Home Secretary, of whatever political complexion, would feel that he had enough appointments to make at the present time without being responsible for any more. I ask your Lordships to reject the Amendment.
  LORD CHORLEY: I am very disappointed with the reply which the noble Earl has given. It was a much less sympathetic one, if I may say so, than that which was given by the Home Secretary in another place. He appeared to have been—I will not say convinced by the argument that was put to him, but at any rate impressed. The noble Earl has tried to persuade your Lordships that the scheme set out in the Bill is more democratic than the scheme for which my noble friend and I are asking. It is difficult to see how he can make that out. Under the Bill, the Committee is to consist partly of the development corporation—a centrally appointed body—and partly of the local magistrates, who are representative of the whole area and not just of the new town itself, so that the inhabitants of the new towns, at any rate in the early stages, are likely to be very little represented. Therefore, the committee, I should have said, would be almost as undemocratic a committee as one could get. I appreciate and agree with the noble Earl that the development corporation, which, after all, has been responsible for the build-up and planning of the new town knows a great deal about site requirements and that sort of thing. But we are not proposing in the Amendment to leave out the corporation. Clearly, it would play a very important part on the committee which we are asking the Government to set up.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: May I ask the noble Lord how does he propose to ensure that it would play an important part? The Amendment says absolutely nothing about it at all.
  LORD CHORLEY: The Amendment says that the Secretary of State shall consult, first of all, with the development corporation. The indication, clearly, is that the committee will be based partly on the development corporation, partly on the local authority representatives and partly on representatives of organisations of citizens who are particularly interested in this sort of problem. In other words, it will be a democratic organisation. Instead, the noble Earl asks us to agree that a committee composed partly of the development corporation and partly of the magistrates is a democratic organisation. I should have thought that the sort of proposal we are putting forward was one which the Government might well accept. We are asking for some sort of elasticity in the administration of this measure, but we are being given no sort of elasticity at all.
  The noble Earl points out that the advisory committees which were to have been set up under the 1949 Act are not the sort of advisory committees which would have been concerned with the sort of problems facing the committees to be set up under Clause 2 of the Bill. Up to a point, that is true. We are not asking that an advisory committee under this measure should take care of these problems. What we are asking is that an advisory committee as under the 1949 Act should be constituted so as to enable it to bring to bear on problems of this sort the opinions and the desires of the local people. After all, the people who are to live in these new towns will, through their local authorities, govern these towns; and, in the long run, surely, they are the people best qualified to judge where they wish to have their public-houses and other places of refreshment and, generally speaking, how the whole thing is to be organised. I am very sorry indeed that the noble Earl has been so inelastic in his approach to this problem. I ask him and the Government if they cannot, between now and the next stage of the Bill, think the matter over, and see whether they cannot be a little more helpful.
  LORD HAWKE: I think the noble Lord—perhaps not intentionally, but by a sidetrack—has cast some innuendo upon the licensing justices. When he says he wants a democratic body to do this, his statement seems to imply that the body proposed in the Bill is not democratic. From the democratic point of view—and, incidentally, one is apt nowadays to get very suspicious of that word "democratic"—surely the development corporation can be relied upon to appoint their half of the committee in a democratic manner; and surely the licensing justices are a democratic enough body. After all, they are a body who from very long experience know the people's requirements with regard to liquor.
  LORD CHORLEY: May I intervene to say that the licensing justices' job up to this particular point has been a judicial job? It is an innovation of a very serious character which is introduced by this Bill.
  LORD SILKIN: I would press the noble Earl to give further consideration to this Amendment. No question of principle is here involved; it is just a matter of machinery. With great respect, I want to emphasise that in my view, and in the view of a great many people, the machinery proposed in the Amendment is preferable. I do not want the noble Earl to be under any misapprehension. I was not suggesting that the Home Secretary should actually appoint the committee. The Amendment makes it clear that he will consult with different people. It sets out with whom he is to consult and that he will eventually, as a result of those consultations, put forward a scheme. In that scheme will be set out the constitution of the committee—the numbers, and how that committee is to be appointed. He could, of course, if he wished, say that he will appoint them himself, but I imagine that he would be very unwise if he did so. The purposes of the advisory committee under the 1949 Act and the committee suggested in this Amendment are very much the same. In both cases they are to have regard to the needs of the locality and to make recommendations. They will not be able to settle in either case. In the one case it was to be the Home Secretary who would decide. In this case the person deciding will be the Minister of Housing and Local Government. There will still be the possibility of an inquiry if people are dissatisfied.

  961
  But in the initial stages I am concerned that the production of the scheme should be in the hands of the widest number of people.
  The noble Earl asked me whom I had in mind. I had in mind, for example, representatives of local authorities in the area. Under the clause as it stands, it is possible that there would not be a single local government representative, not a single elected person, on the committee. That, as I say, is possible, and the Minister would have no redress if that were the case. He has no voice under the clause as it stands in the selection of that committee, whereas under a scheme that he might make he could insist that there should be a certain number of local government representatives. There could be representatives of the churches who, I think, are very much interested in this matter; there could be representatives of people interested in social services, and of people interested in education. All these people could be appointed to the committee under the Amendment, whereas under the rigid terms of the clause as it stands, the probabilities are that they would not be.
  Moreover, I see no particular reason why the magistrates should constitute one half of the committee. I do not want to eliminate the magistrates at all; I think it is essential that they should be represented on the committee, because they have a knowledge which no one else is likely to have. But I cannot see why they should necessarily make up one half of the committee. It is true that this was discussed in another place on Report stage. The noble Lord will know that after a discussion that lasted an hour the guillotine descended and it was not possible to reach any conclusion.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The Amendment was withdrawn by the proposer.
  LORD SILKIN: It was withdrawn because the guillotine was about to descend and because an assurance of further consideration had been given by the Home Secretary. The Home Secretary did not give any promise about what his attitude would be, bit he gave the definite assurance that it would be further considered. I am sure that he would not for a single second intend to mislead, and no one was under the impression that he was giving way. He made that abundantly clear. Nevertheless, the Amendment
  962
  was withdrawn on the assurance that the Home Secretary would look at it. I ask the Government to look at this matter again. They have time between now and Report stage. I think the Amendment provides an improvement on the existing provisions. If the noble Lord can give an assurance that he will look at it again—I do not ask him to commit himself—I should be perfectly willing to withdraw the Amendment.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: No. I intervene only for a moment out of courtesy. The Home Secretary undertook to look at this. We have looked at it, very closely and fully. I do not say that this is a vast matter of principle or one that divides us on Party lines, but we have looked at it again, and on the sheer merits of the case we are quite sure that the plan proposed in the Bill is better than the complete revolution which the noble Lord proposes in his Amendment. It is not as if it were something we had invented entirely. What we are doing here is exactly what Mr. Herbert Morrison did in the Act of 1945, which set up a body to deal with exactly this kind of case. The noble Lord says we must have this and that represented on the advisory committee. But it is not an advisory committee; it is, subject to the Minister's approval, an executive committee. It is not for a hundred-and-one purposes. I am not sure I agree with the noble Lord that in a multitude of counsellors there is wisdom. I think a more limited number of wise persons with a great deal of local and administrative knowledge, who would consult with other experienced people as need be—as all sensible people do and as we do in this House in this kind of business—would give a better result than a loose and amorphous committee including Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all. What is the limited purpose for which this body is to be established? It is to decide how many licensed premises there should be in a new town and where they should be placed.
  LORD SILKIN: And the nature of them.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: Be it so: and the nature of them. That is very much what Mr. Morrison proposed in 1945 and his committees worked very well. Surely the two sets of people who will very well

  963
  know how to deal with this limited purpose are, first of all, the corporations themselves, who are the fathers of the new towns—and the noble Lord would not wish to cast aspersions on his own children—and secondly, the licensing justices, who know more about licensing than anybody else. I cannot think of a better body. Observe what happens. They start with all their own local knowledge and no doubt consult with other people, because sensible people do not work in a vacuum or in a Trappist monastery. Then they publish their plan, so that all local people may consider it and raise any objections, and, if necessary, the responsible Minister can hold an inquiry. Then the plan is finally made. I would say that between these two sorts of committee, the one provided for in the Bill, proposed after great consideration and following what I may call the Morrison precedent, is much the better one for this purpose. It would be idle for me to say that I shall take it back and look at it again. We have done so already, not merely out of courtesy but because, while we differ in principle from noble Lords opposite, we are just as keen as they are
  to get this working in the best possible way. All those working on it have come to the conclusion that the Morrison plan is the best plan and I would ask the House to stand by it.
  VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: There is one important point on this matter which the House has missed. If the Bill stands unamended, there is no possibility of any question being asked in Parliament about the membership of any of these committees.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am sure that whatever form the committee takes, there is nothing to stop the noble Lord asking a question in Parliament about who is on any committee.
  VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: Indeed there is. If the Minister has no responsibility for the committees, he has no responsibility before Parliament and so questions can never be asked.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: The Minister can answer a question of fact.
  On Question: Whether the Amendment be agree to?
  Their Lordships divided: Contents, 24: Not-Contents, 72.

  CONTENTS

  Baldwin of Bewdley, E.

  Chorley, L.

  Macpherson of Drumochter, L.

  Jowitt, E.

  Crook, L. [Teller.]

  McEntee, L.

  Faringdon, L.

  Milner of Leeds, L.

  St. Davids, V.

  Greenhill, L.

  Pakenham, L.

  Haden-Guest, L.

  Pethick-Lawrence, L.

  Archibald, L,

  Henderson, L.

  Rochester, L.

  Bingham, L. (E. Lucan.) [Teller.]

  Kenswood, L.

  Shepherd, L.

  Lucas of Chilworth, L.

  Silkin, L.

  Burden, L.

  Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, L.

  Wise, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS

  Simonds, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Munster, E.

  Abinger, L.

  Onslow, E. [Teller.]

  Aldenham, L.

  Wellington, D.

  Rothes, E.

  Ashton of Hyde, L.

  St. Aldwyn, E.

  Audley, L.

  Cholmondeley, M.

  Selkirk, E.

  Blackford, L.

  Reading, M.

  Brassey of Apethorpe, L.

  Allenby, V.

  Carrington, L.

  Albemarle, E.

  Bridgeman, V.

  Cherwell, L.

  Alexander of Tunis, E.

  Buckmaster, V.

  Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

  Bathurst, E.

  FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

  Birkenhead, E.

  Furness, V.

  Cozens-Hardy, L.

  Brooke and Warwick, E.

  Harcourt, V.

  Douglas, L. (E. Home.)

  Buckinghamshire, E.

  Leverhulme, V.

  Fairfax of Cameron, L.

  Craven, E.

  Margesson, V.

  Fraser of North Cape, L.

  De La Warr, E.

  Monsell, V.

  Gifford, L.

  Dundonald, E.

  Simon, V.

  Hacking, L.

  Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

  Swinton, V.

  Hampton, L.

  Iveagh, E.

  Trenchard, V.

  Hawke, L.

  Lindsay, E.

  Hayter, L.

  Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

  Aberdare, L.

  Hindlip, L.

  Howard of Glossop, L.

  Newall, L.

  Sandys, L.

  Jeffreys, L.

  Ormonde, L. (M. Ormonde.)

  Teynham, L.

  Kilmarnock, L.

  Remnant, L.

  Thurlow, L.

  Leathers, L.

  Rochdale, L.

  Tweedsmuir, L.

  Llewellin, L.

  Rockley, L.

  Waleran, L.

  Lyle of Westbourne, L.

  St. Just, L.

  Wolverton, L.

  On Question, Amendment agreed to.

  5.30 p.m.
  LORD BURDEN LORD BURDEN moved: Page 3, line 39, leave nut subsection (12) and to insert:
  "(12) Any order made by the Secretary of State under the provisions of this section, or any subsequent order which varies or revokes a previous order, shall be by statutory instrument and no such statutory instrument shall be made unless a draft thereof has been laid before Parliament and has been approved by each House of Parliament."
  The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. This Amendment obviously refers to orders in respect of new licences or modifications, and not to existing licences. The Amendment rests upon two simple propositions. The first is that these values will arise from State action in building up these new towns by the corporations, which is part of national policy. The second proposition is equally simple and it is this. The State, by and through Parliament, having created the need for these new values—licensed premises—Parliament itself should retain control or be aware of all that arises from the work of the committee to which the noble Earl referred in the last Amendment. It would be to the advantage of the Minister himself and the Government to accept this proposal, for this reason. I know that the clause indicates—that is, of course, when it is passed and accepted—that the Minister will have power to confirm proposals coming up from the committee. As I read the Bill, when these proposals have been confirmed by the Minister, it would seem to follow almost automatically that the justices or the licensing authority would, at the appropriate time, grant the new licence. Someone or other will submit proposals to the Minister. We all know the capacity for work and the powers of assimilating a mass of detail which Ministers of any Government possess, but it would be a profound mistake if the right, the almost automatic right, to valuable properties were disposed of by a confirmation of the Minister behind the back of Parliament. That is what it would come to. Parliament
  966
  would not know that, so far as a new town is concerned, there had been a proposition for a new licence or licences.
  I would point out to the noble Earl that these proposals when confirmed, and when a licence or licences have flowed from the confirmation, will mean, notwithstanding any reasonable rent which may be charged, hundreds of thousands of pounds flowing into the pockets of the lucky people who ultimately get the licence. I submit to your Lordships that, in disposing of valuable properties of that kind, Parliament itself should keep some control over what is done. I confidently appeal to the noble Earl to look at this Amendment in a sympathetic way and, even if he cannot accept the precise form of words, to do something to meet the substance of the point I have the honour to submit. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 3, line 39, leave out subsection (12) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Burden.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I must confess that I had a little difficulty in following what the noble Lord intended, but what I can tell him is that the Amendment he has down will certainly not achieve what he has in mind, if his Amendment intended that Parliamentary approval must be given to action under Clause 2. It has nothing to do with confirmation, nothing to do with new licences, nothing to do with State values and nothing to do with exchange of property at all. The effect of this Amendment would be that Parliament would have to approve certain extremely simple actions taken by the Secretary of State. One concerns the fixing of the number of members and term of office of the committee. Having come to his conclusion, he would then decide the quorum of the committee, and then he would decide action where a joint committee for two towns is necessary. That is all he would be asked to do. I say with respect—and I am the first to acknowledge that Parliament should watch carefully the executive powers exercised by Ministers—that these are

  967
  matters which are not worthy of the consideration of Parliament, and I must ask your Lordships not to accept the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  Clause 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3:
  Proposals as to new licensed premises
  3.—(1) It shall be the duty of each committee constituted under the last foregoing section to consider from time to time, having regard to the existing circumstances of the area for which the committee is constituted and of the proposed development of that area, the requirements of the area as respects licensed premises, the accommodation and amenities which should be provided thereat and the facilities which should be available thereat for obtaining both intoxicating liquor and meals and other refreshments.
  (2) In the light of their consideration of the matters aforesaid, any such committee shall proceed to formulate from time to time proposals as to the places in the area for which the committee is constituted at which licensed premises should be established, and the proposals shall specify the way in which any licensed premises established in accordance therewith should be licensed, and shall contain provisions (hereinafter referred to as "supplementary provisions") as to the type of accommodation, amenities and services to be provided in premises being or comprising any such licensed premises, including, unless the committee in any particular case otherwise decide, provision for the service of meals and refreshments other than intoxicating liquor.
  5.38 p.m.
  LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved to add to subsection (1):
  "including the provision of accommodation to be provided for the consumption thereon of beverages other than intoxicating liquor and in which the consumption of intoxicating liquor is prohibited."
  The noble Lord said: Clause 3 is the clause about which the Secretary of State was perhaps most conciliatory. I have here the debates in another place, both on the Committee and the Report stage, and I find that he was very ready to try and improve Clause 3 in the direction suggested by the Opposition. One appreciates his readiness to accept those Amendments, and I feel sure that he himself would be sympathetically disposed towards this one. This Amendment really carries a very small step further the Amendment which has already been accepted, and I do not think that, if accepted by Her Majesty's Government
  968
  and implemented by the committee, it would impose a very heavy burden on the brewers.
  In moving this Amendment, I have no intention of entering into a discussion as to the merits or demerits of the brewers. In an earlier debate in this Chamber two of my noble friends differed from an honourable friend of mine in another place in their attitude towards the brewers. I have served on various public bodies with brewers, and I serve with a number of them now. I find them public-spirited men in their approach to, many questions, although they and I differ. They seem to think that it would be a good thing for this country if the number of people who imbibe alcoholic liquor were increased. I think it would be a good thing if fewer people imbibed. The noble Marquess the Leader of the House—whose absence, owing to indisposition, I, and I am sure the whole House, deeply deplore—seemed to think, when he was speaking on the Second Reading of the Bill on Monday, that we were afraid of the brewers because the brewers were interested in drunkenness. I have never thought that of the brewers. They are much too wise to be interested in drunkenness. They appreciate the dangers of drunkenness to themselves. It might create a tremendous outcry throughout the country. But I have been worried once or twice with regard to individual brewers. A statement was made a few years ago which disturbed me immensely, and I am sorry that it was ever made by a brewer. What possessed him I do not know. He said:
  "We want to get the beer-drinking habit instilled into thousands—almost millions—of young men who do not at present know the taste of beer. These young men, if they start with what beer they can afford to-day, as they grow up will afford better beers to the greater advantage of the brewing industry."
  I do not like running an industry such as the brewing industry for the brewers. I believe that that industry ought to be run for the country.
  Having said that, I want to suggest that the Amendment I am now moving does not impose a very heavy burden on the brewers, and I do not think they would object to it. It is now twenty-odd years ago since I was asked to take the affirmative side in a debate on "Would improved public-houses improve the

  969
  public?" The majority of those present were temperance people and I am pleased to say that the affirmative side won that debate because I was able to show that an improved public-house would not be an improved public-house unless it had improved the people. People who go to a public house are sometimes people who do not enjoy intoxicating liquor and do not, perhaps, enjoy having their non-intoxicating drink in the same room with beer drinkers: not that they object so much to the beer drinkers as to the fact that there is, I understand, a kind of aura in a public-house which is sometimes objectionable to those who are not accustomed to it. We are anxious that the public-house of the future should be a place where men or women or a whole family who do not enjoy intoxicating drinks can go and have the drink that they do enjoy and have it under the conditions that they like. We ask that they should have a separate room. It would not be a great expense to anybody, and it would make the public-house of the future a better public-house. I do not subscribe to the belief that this or any other Bill can make the drink trade an asset to country. I do not think any Bill will ever do that. But I do think that a Bill dealing with drink might possibly make it less of a liability. I am satisfied that this Amendment will improve this Bill; and I hope that, if it is the noble Viscount the acting Leader of the House who is to reply, he will show the same conciliatory spirit as the Home Secretary did in another place, and will accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 4, line 4, after ("refreshments") insert the said words.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I will not follow the noble Lord into all these happy memories. But, whatever one may think about the brewers, it seems to me that, whichever Party is in office, the man who does best out of the brewers is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Certainly I am not going to argue whether beer is a liability or an asset generally, but it is certainly an asset to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Both my noble friend Lord Selkirk and I would have liked to reply on this Amendment; we tossed,
  970
  and I won, and I am very glad to be able to tell the noble Lord that we accept it.
  LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR: May I express my appreciation?
  5.42 p.m.
  LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved in subsection (2) after "established" (where that word first occurs) to insert:
  "and which existing licensed premises shall be required to remove to new licensed premises."
  The noble Lord said: Since the mood of noble Lords opposite, seems to have changed, I hope the Amendment which I am now moving will have a similar happy fate. Its purpose is this. In Clause 2 there is a provision setting up committees who are to give consideration to proposals for new licensed premises. We are now dealing with the question of proposals. The committees will have to have regard to the needs of the locality, the number of premises that are needed, their condition, the kind of facilities to be provided, and their location. In order to get a proper view of the needs of a locality one must have regard to the existing licensed houses. One cannot look at the needs of a town with an ultimate population of, say, 60,000, without considering what are the existing licensed premises. All my Amendment seeks to do is to ensure that when the committees formulate their proposals they shall formulate not only
  "proposals as to the places in the area for which the committee is constituted and at which licensed premises should be established,"
  but also—and then I insert the words on the Marshalled List:
  "and which existing licensed premises shall be required to remove …"
  It may be that existing licensed premises are happily situated in relation to the larger towns, and that no removal will be necessary. But it might equally turn out that, as in the case of a number of existing new towns, the existing licensed houses are not particularly suitably situated in relation to the larger town, and that a number might with advantage be removed to other parts of the new town.
  I am asking in the Amendment that these words shall be inserted so that,

  971
  when the review takes place, the committee will consider not only which new houses are needed but which existing houses should be transferred to other parts of the town. I am not dealing here, of course, with the question of redundancy. As the Home Secretary said in another place, it is hardly likely that there will be redundancy where the population is to be so largely increased in a relatively short time; and in any case there is provision under the Licensing Act of 1910 for dealing with redundancy. That is not the point. The point is that while there may be, at a particular moment, redundancy in an existing town, in large towns the existing houses may well be suitably and appropriately transferred to other places. It is with a view to ensuring that that is one of the factors in the formulation of a scheme for the provision of licensed premises in the new towns that this Amendment is moved. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 4, line 9, after ("established") insert the said words.—(Lord Silkin.)
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am afraid that noble Lords opposite cannot expect to win every round of the game. I also feel that this Amendment is ill-conceived in relation to the purpose of the Bill, and would not help. After all, what is the purpose of these committees? They are to decide, subject to the Minister's approval, after they have published their report, where the new public-houses in the area are to be—that is a definite thing they have to do. Then it will be for the corporation to make the arrangements, either to build these places and let them, or part of them, on lease to a firm of brewers to take up. That is to be the function of the corporation, and not of the committee. The corporation have various powers. They have, for instance, power to close particular licensed premises if they feel that to be the right course—not on grounds of redundancy but because the premises are undesirable at that spot. The corporation have the same power over, say, a butcher's shop. They have the same power of purchase and acquisition of premises. Moreover, it may well be that the corporation—not the committee—in making their arrangements for the provision of public-houses in the places
  972
  where the plan says that public-houses ought to exist, would come to some arrangement with the brewer and say, in effect, "All right, we will give you the opportunity of having a lease of these premises, or of putting up these premises, provided that you will acquire this other one and suppress it." That is the kind of thing which may well be done, as other business operations are carried out between a willing landlord and a willing tenant, each having something to give and something to get.
  I think it would be wrong to mix up the functions of the corporation, who have to "run the shop," and the functions of the committee, whose job is the limited one of saying where, how many and of what character the new premises are to be. If the noble Lord wants to have a different system of compensation, compulsory purchase would have to come in, unless he means that, once they have laid down on a plan that a "pub" should cease to be in a particular place, there should be no compensation. I am sure the noble Lord does not mean that. Then, in order that the thing may be suppressed, the corporation would have to exercise its compulsory powers of purchase. I can well suppose that it might not be a wise thing to say in advance exactly what premises ought to be suppressed. I cannot see that it has any advantage, but I can see that it has a possible disadvantage, because if you tell somebody that he is going to be suppressed, and is going to get compensation, you may be apt to give him a bit of extra value. Somebody who did not really want to run the "pub" properly but who thought: "This is a good thing to come in on," might come in and speculate in the hope of being eventually bought out. In days gone by, when you were going to run a railway through a particular place, it was not wise to say exactly where the railway was to go because, if people could buy up land at the site, they were apt to get a bit more for it when they came to sell. It misconceives the function of the committee and the corporation. We should not approve of it at all.
  LORD SILKIN: I am bound to say, with great respect, that I think it is the noble Viscount who misconceives the function of this Bill. I cannot understand

  973
  how the committee can, as stated in Clause 2, determine
  "the number, nature and distribution of licensed premises in new towns"
  or, as stated in Clause 3,
  "consider from time to time, having regard to the existing circumstances of the area … and … the requirements of the area as respects licensed premises"
  without having regard to the existing licences. This Bill is not concerned merely with the provision of new licences. The whole conception of the Bill is that it reviews the situation as a whole. It takes into account what is there and what will be needed. After all—and surely the noble Viscount will agree with me here—the committee cannot properly consider what new licensed premises are needed unless they take into account what are the existing licensed premises. All that this Amendment seeks to do is to ensure that they will do that. The noble Viscount tried to pursue the matter by suggesting that it might be undesirable to say which existing premises might have to be dealt with. But if his argument is sound, does not it apply with even greater force to the location of new premises? After all, the Bill actually requires that the committee should say where the new premises should be; and if it is undesirable to say which existing premises are going to be dealt with it is even more undesirable to say where the new licensed premises are to be. In fact, this difficulty does not arise, because in the normal case the land in a new town is already owned by the development corporation, so that no question of speculation such as took place in the days of railways can arise.
  This is a matter which received a good deal of consideration in another place. I believe that I am right in saying that the Home Secretary was sympathetic and, as I read what he said, he was under the impression that existing premises would be taken into account. Here again, I make the offer that the noble Viscount rejected on a previous occasion. I am perfectly willing to give the noble Viscount an opportunity of discussing this matter with his right honourable friend and to withdraw the Amendment to-day on the assumption that he and the Home Secretary will give it proper consideration. But I cannot understand how it is possible to consider the requirements of a new town
  974
  without taking into account the existing licensed premises.
  EARL JOWITT: I hope very much that the noble Viscount in charge of this Bill will consider this point again. Neither my noble friend nor I ask for an answer here and now. All I ask is that the matter may be looked into between now and Report stage. Let us look at the various clauses. In Clause 2, for instance, you set up committees and their function is to determine the
  "distribution of licensed premises in new towns."
  Then, in Clause 3, you have proposals as to new licensed premises. It seems to me quite obvious that the function of this committee is to survey the thing generally, to see that there are reasonable and suitable facilities given to the lieges who live in the towns to get their drink. Surely it must be the fact that, if the function of the committee is to survey the thing generally, they must consider where the existing licences are. If you get two or three licences quite close together in a street, surely it might be reasonable for the committee to say: "We think that licence ought to move to another part. You can have one licence in the street and let the other licences go from this street somewhere else." I should have thought that, in the survey which the committee make, obviously they ought to consider the question of the removal of a licensed premises from one part of the town to another. That is all I am asking: that is all that this Amendment covers. I very much hope that the noble Viscount will not absolutely shut his mind to this matter but will discuss it with his right honourable friend the Home Secretary to see whether there is not something in this Amendment, and whether they cannot meet us on this matter.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: Of course, we will consider this again, but quite definitely I am not holding out any hope. I have come new into the Bill as my noble friend has unfortunately been taken ill. My noble friend has also taken a very great amount of trouble over this matter with the Home Office. I too, went to some trouble to have a meeting with the Home Office and the Departments on this. Because it puzzled me a little, I took particular trouble to find out about it. The Home Office have a

  975
  definite view that this would not help and would not be the right way of doing it. I am not saying that the committee have not to take into consideration what the existing premises are. Of course they have to take into consideration the whole town; but to lay this down as a function of the committee, to be put into the plan which they submit, would, in the view of my noble friend and the Departments, definitely be a wrong thing to do. The noble Lord knows that we on these Benches do our best to come to this House—because it is a revising Chamber—not merely with a brief supplied and something to read out, but after a great deal of consideration of the subject. Of course, it is open to the noble Lord to put down another Amendment on Report stage. I cannot hold out any hope that if the Amendment is put down again, the Home Office will alter the view they have very definitely expressed, not only in the written advice which they have given but also in all the discussions
  LORD SILKIN: I want to say this. It may be that, from a drafting point of view, this Amendment is not all that it should be, but the noble Viscount himself has conceded that, of course, they have to take into account existing licences. That is axiomatic. The committee cannot consider what new premises are needed unless they take into account those which already exist. What I am concerned with is that that should be stated in the Bill. If the noble Viscount will do that and consider it from that angle, I am perfectly prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am not prepared to do that. Having consulted with the Home Office, and they having come to the conclusion that this would be a blemish on and not a help to the Bill, I really cannot undertake to ask Parliamentary draftsmen to redraft something which we do not think is right.
  LORD SILKIN: I am not asking the noble Viscount to go as far as redrafting the Amendment, because that would be equivalent to accepting it. I am asking the noble Viscount to look at the substance of the case that has been put, and to discuss it once more with the Home Secretary. We have to remember that the guillotine procedure was adopted in
  976
  another place, and it was not possible to put all these points at the length which has been possible here this evening. A great many arguments were, of necessity, cut short, and the Home Secretary may have decided this point without having heard the full case. Well, it can be put to him now. What I am asking is simply that the case should be reconsidered; and, if the result is favourable, possibly the noble Viscount himself would put down an Amendment.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am very sorry. I try to be frank with the Committee. It is easy to say: "We will reconsider this," but I should not be frank with the Committee if I did not say that this matter has been most carefully considered, and that it is the considered and reconsidered view of the Home Office that an Amendment on the lines proposed by the noble Lord would be wrong. I do not mind telling the noble Lord that I found the matter a little difficult to understand myself, and I may not be very clear to the Committee; but when I went into it, I was completely convinced that the Home Office were right. As I say, it is perfectly open to the noble Lord to put down any Amendment he likes on Report, but I can hold out no hope to him that either my noble friend or I, or the Home Office, will give him a different reply. It may be more skilfully phrased than it is to-night, but in the result I am certain that the answer will be the same.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  6.3 p.m.
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS LORD MILNER OF LEEDS moved after subsection (3) to insert:
  "(4) Before formulating any such proposals the committee shall comply with such general or special directions as may from time to time be given to them by the Secretary of State as to consultation with such authorities or bodies as may be specified in the directions."
  The noble Lord said: This, I hope, is an Amendment which will appeal to the noble Viscount. The proposal is very simple—namely, that permissive powers should be given to the Home Secretary to give directions to the committee as to the authorities or bodies with whom the committee should consult. The real object of the Amendment is to provide that, where necessary, there shall be consultation, in particular with the development corporation. In the terms of the Bill the committee is not bound to include any member of the development

  977
  corporation; the committee can consist of persons other than those who are members of the development corporation. Therefore, there may be many occasions when it is desirable that the development corporation should be consulted. It may be desirable that other bodies should also be consulted.
  This proposal is purely permissive. The Secretary of State may, or may not, give directions. If this Amendment is included in the Bill, it will give him power to give those directions, and, in certain circumstances, it may be very useful. I may say that I am not altogether sure that the Amendment is in its right place in the Bill, but that is quite a minor matter, if the noble Viscount feels that he can accept what I hope may be a useful contribution to the Bill. I beg to trove.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 4, line 23, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Milner of Leeds.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Lord has, I think, taken this Amendment from the 1945 Act. I am informed that it was inserted in that Act in order to ensure that in some cases consultation took place between two local authorities, and I believe particular cases in point were the City of London and the London County Council. In actual fact, the powers under the Statute have never been used, and I am bound to say that I find it very difficult to visualise circumstances in which it would be necessary under this Bill to use them. May I take the example put forward by the noble Lord? Half the committee will consist of representatives of the development corporation. Is the noble Lord really suggesting that the Secretary of State should have power to tell those representatives to consult the development corporation?
  LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: If the noble Earl will forgive me, I would point out that one half of the committee are not members of the development corporation; they are appointed by the development corporation. That is not quite the same thing. They need not be members of the corporation.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: They need not be members, but, with great respect, I suggest that they do, in fact, represent the development corporation. Therefore they should at least be knowledgeable of their part in it; and I think it would be
  978
  entirely inappropriate for the Secretary of State to say that these appointees of the corporation should consult with the corporation. I am only saying that that does not carry very much weight. I should like the noble Lord to look for a moment at what would take place under this proposal. The committee will be set up and will come to the point where it considers its proposals. Before it formulates its proposals, the Secretary of State may say: "You must consult with A, B and C." It then formulates its proposals and, in the end, the Secretary of State has to confirm what it has formulated. I must say that that is reducing the committee to an extremely low level. First of all, the Secretary of State or, in this case, the Minister, tells them with whom to consult, and then at the end of the day confirms their decision. It seems to me that if these committees have not the sense to consult with the right people, or people who are interested, they are hardly worth while appointing at all. They are bad appointments.
  Further, I would point out that in itself compulsory consultation is not really very valuable. I say, with respect, that it does not carry much weight. We can quite easily arrange to consult with each other and come to no decision, and be as wise or unconvinced as we were when we started. I do not think that this particular Amendment adds anything to the Bill. If the proposal regarding a committee is wrong, then it is wrong, and we have made a mistake. But I do not think that compulsory consultation at this stage would make any difference at all, and I must ask your Lordships not to accept this Amendment.
  LORD GREENHILL: I wonder whether the point of view just put forward by the noble Earl is correct. Speaking in support of the Amendment moved by my noble friend, Lord Milner, I rather think that the noble Earl is taking too narrow a view of the situation. As I see it, what happens is this. You have a development corporation who are very much concerned about the whole of the new town; then you have this committee which concerns itself only with proposals as to new licensed premises—that is, within the framework that the development corporation have laid down. It seems to me perfectly reasonable to suppose that even in finding places in which to put new

  979
  licensed premises the committee may come into contact with people occupying different kinds of premises—it may be a church, a cinema, or perhaps some tree lovers' society, who feel their amenities are not being looked after. Therefore, there is this possible conflict of interest between the development corporation and the committee which has a specific function to perform. You may ask: is it right that the Secretary of State should be brought into this picture? The answer is, that the proposals must in any case come before the Secretary of State, and, if my information is correct, the Home Secretary in another place gave an indication that he was rather in favour of this Amendment.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: For some time some noble Lords have been thinking that there is too much central interference with properly constituted local bodies. I am glad the Government have not accepted this Amendment, for if a committee such as this is set up with a properly appointed independent chairman, one half of the members, as I understand it, being appointed by the development corporation and the other half by the licensing justices of the area, it forms a responsible body of people, and I should much sooner see them not working in leading strings of this sort but being left to function, as no doubt they will, as a responsible local body, consulting those people who ought to be consulted. I hope the tendency will be to decentralise a little more, and not to keep locally elected bodies, whether local authorities or bodies such as this, too much in leading strings to the Central Government. That is why I am glad that my noble friend has not seen fit to accept this Amendment.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: May I just add this to what I have already said? The noble Lord has laid emphasis on the question of getting in touch with various bodies. There is a perfectly good channel for that already provided for in the Bill. These bodies can either get in touch informally through various members of the committee or, alternatively, formally make their views known at a later date. That is already provided for and that is why we consider the provision which is sought to be made by the Amendment to be redundant.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  6.12 p.m.
  LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, after subsection (4) to insert:
  "(5) Any such proposals shall be accompanied by an explanatory statement of the general effect of the proposals and a plan showing—

  (a) the existing distribution of licensed premises in the part of the area affected by the proposals;

  (b) the effect of the proposals on the distribution of licensed premises."

  The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Ammon, I beg to move this Amendment. The purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that the public are given as full information as is possible about the proposals formulated by the committee. As your Lordships will see, the effect of subsections (4) and (5) of Clause 3 is to provide that the committee have to submit proposals to the Minister, and when they have done so they have to publish proposals by various methods to the public and give the public the opportunity of seeing them. If this Amendment were accepted it would ensure that the public would have the opportunity of studying and thoroughly understanding just what are the proposals that are being formulated by the committee. In the light of such study they would be in a better position to decide whether they should raise objections or not.
  These are proposals which, I agree, in the normal way any committee might formulate without any direction at all. But this really is an important matter; it does affect the rights of the public, and the public are entitled to have the fullest possible information. If this Amendment were accepted, it would ensure that the public would have the fullest possible information about the proposals to enable them to decide on their course of action. The Amendment sets out that the proposals shall be accompanied by an explanatory statement of the general effect of the proposals and a plan to show two things—the existing distribution of licensed premises in the part of the area affected by the proposals, and the effect of the proposals on the distribution of licensed premises. I think the Committee will agree that that is an unexceptionable Amendment, and I hope that it will be accepted. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 4, line 29, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Silkin.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I believe this Amendment comes from a regulation made under the Licensing Planning Act, 1945. The purpose of the words in the regulation is, in fact slightly different, from those in the Amendment. As the noble Lord knows very well, the Licensing Planning Act of 1945 had specifically to distribute certain dormant licences—licences which were not existing; they were there but they had no physical existence at all. The word "distribution" there had an entirely different meaning from that sought to be imported by the noble Lord into this particular clause. We entirely agree with what the noble Lord has said to the effect that the public must understand thoroughly the nature of the proposals which are being made. It is most important that they should. We think, however, that the words of subsection (4) cover this, because it is there set out that the committee has to submit proposals to the Minister together with plans and other matter explanatory of the nature and effect of the proposals. I add only that I am able, on behalf of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, to say that he will require, as he is entitled to do, broad information on the lines indicated here. If he does not consider the information supplied to him adequate he can send it back and ask for it to be supplemented. On that assurance, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the Amendment. I think the point with which it deals is fully covered in the Bill as it stands.
  LORD SILKIN: I am quite prepared to accept that undertaking and to ask leave of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  6.17 p.m.
  LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved after Clause 3 to insert the following new clause:
  Amendment of S.I. of 12, 13 & 14 Geo. 6. c. 59
  (". The powers of the local advisory committees constituted under paragraph (c) of subsection (7) of section one of the Licensing Act, 1949, which provide for the advisory committees to make recommendations concerning the provision of entertainment or recreation at premises in a State management district shall continue to apply to the new towns, the provisions of this Act notwithstanding, except that the recommendations of the local advisory
  982
  committees shall be made to the corporations of the new towns and not to the Secretary of State as provided in the Licensing Act, 1949.")
  The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Ammon, I beg to move the insertion of this new clause. This, again, is a fairly simple provision. It asks that the local advisory committees which were constituted under the Act of 1949 should be retained for the single purpose of advising on the provision of entertainment or recreation at premises in new towns. They will be in a sense ancillary to the committees set up under Clause 2, which are not primarily designed to comprise people who are experts or particularly well qualified to speak on the requirements of the population in the matter of recreation or entertainment. The advisory committees are drawn from a wider circle and are presumably better informed about the needs and wishes of the localities from that point of view.
  The proposal is that they should be retained for this one purpose and for no other, and that they should report to the development corporations instead of to the Secretary of State. Their advice would go to the development corporations and it would undoubtedly be helpful to the corporations in formulating their proposals which would be specifically considered by the committee set up under Clause 2. I think the noble Earl appreciates that it is the intention in the first place that the development corporations should set out their ideas; these would then go to the committee and from there would be transmitted to the Minister. This proposal, in short, therefore, is that the local advisory committee should in fact be an advisory committee to the development corporation and not to the committee itself. We are suggesting that as these committees have been set up they should remain in being for this single purpose. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 3, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Silkin.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I hope the noble Lord will not mind my saying that I do not think he would have put this Amendment down in his own name; but that is by the way. I think the Amendment is misconceived. The advisory councils cease to exist under the Bill, and we are asked now to keep them in

  983
  existence for the sole purpose of advising development corporations on entertainment and recreation. These are important amenities of any new town, but I cannot see why the corporations should have advisory committees exclusively for recreation and entertainment. Further, these matters have nothing whatever to do with licensed premises, and the inclusion of this proposal would involve an alteration in the title of the Bill. In these circumstances, I must ask your Lordships not to accept this Amendment, which I think has been put down under a misconception.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  Clause 4 agreed to.
  6.23 p.m.
  LORD GREENHILL LORD GREENHILL moved, after Clause 4, to insert the following new clause:
  Grant and renewal of licences in new towns
  ". Before granting or renewing any licence in respect of any premises in any new town the licensing justices shall take into account any application in regard thereto made to them by the committee constituted under section two of this Act and shall not grant or renew any licence if it appears to them that so to do would adversely affect any determination made by the committee as to the number, nature and distribution of licensed premises in the new towns."
  The noble Lord said: It seems to me that perhaps there is some misconception underlying the intention of Clause 4, which deals with the granting of licences and removals in new towns. Although the new clause which I propose has not appeared on the Order Paper in another place, it is aimed at dealing with a peculiar omission from the Bill, one which was commented upon in Committee in another place. In the case of new licences and removals, the justices are bound by the findings of the committee, but in the case of old licences, or removals of old licences, the committee have not the power to bind the justices by their recommendations. The new clause seeks to bring about the prevention of an unfair distribution of licences and to deal with any redundancies which may be effected by applications for new licences. I think the Amendment would clarify the position as between the two bodies.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 4, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Greenhill.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, one question straight away. If he were the chairman of a licensing court, as he has been, how would he like to have someone outside instructing him not to renew a licence?
  LORD GREENHILL: I should not like it at all, but if that body had the power to tell me what might or might not be and I agreed with the view they expressed, I should not resent it so much, though I should exercise my own powers, too.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I hope the noble Lord realises that under his new clause he could not exercise any power. The clause refers to
  "any determination made by the committee."
  I am not clear what is meant by a "determination"; it is certainly not a proposal. The Amendment also states that a licence is not to be renewed by the justices if it
  "would adversely affect any determination made by the committee."
  I must say that is going a long way. The magistrates sit as a court. The situation is different as between England and Scotland. I do not know whether the noble Lord is talking about Scotland or England, but in Scotland the courts would deeply resent having that imposed upon them. In regard to new licences, I admit that the magistrates have to follow instructions in certain cases but that is a little different. What I think is in the noble Lord's mind and, from what he said previously, in Lord Silkin's mind also, is the question of how we are to get rid of redundant licences. We have given this matter a great deal of consideration. So far as England is concerned, there has been a material reduction in the number of licences since the original Act of 1910 by the suspension of licences subject to compensation. That is a process which has been going on continuously, and which can still go on. That is one method by which licences can be declared redundant. The second method is that the new town corporations can buy licences. They are still free to do that and have the power to do so under the original Act. In certain cases, no doubt, that would be the right and proper course to take. There is a third method, which is the more usual one—namely, the

  985
  process of negotiation, which is recognised by Statute. It is possible to negotiate the removal of licences from undesirable places to desirable places, and in some cases two licences may be moved into one place. It is hoped that that will be carried on extensively and will be successful. In many towns redundancy does not arise. For instance, it does not arise in many towns in Scotland. In many new towns the number of licences is at present considerably smaller than it will be when the town is fully developed. I hope that with that explanation the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment.
  LORD GREENHILL: The noble Earl will appreciate that this does not run parallel with the Scottish system. It was said in another place, I think by Mr. Douglas Johnston, that Clause 4 had no bearing whatever upon the Scottish situation. This Amendment is designed to include in the Bill an apparent omission from Clause 4. However, I do not wish to press the matter and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  6.30 p.m.
  Clause 5:
  Temporary licensed premises
  5.—(1) Proposals under section three of this Act may include provision whereby during such period (hereinafter referred to as "the interim period") as may be specified in the proposals, the next following subsection shall apply to any place specified in the proposals for the situation of licensed premises.
  LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, in subsection (1), after "such period" to insert "not exceeding five years." The noble Lord said: The Committee will be relieved to hear that this is the last Amendment I propose to move to-day. Clause 5 was inserted in the Bill at a relatively late stage. It provides for something which was presumably overlooked in the earlier stage—namely, that in view of the restriction on building, and the great importance of preserving our resources, it might not be possible in the early stages of the life of a new town to provide the necessary licensed houses; and that there ought to be some provision for putting up temporary refreshment houses until such time as it is possible to provide permanent ones. There was a good deal of difference of opinion about this matter, because there was a strong view in the
  986
  Committee that temporary houses ought not to be permitted. It was not a view held by one side of the Committee, particularly, as against the other. But after consideration the Home Secretary decided that it would be unfair to the inhabitants of a new town that they should be deprived of these facilities merely because one could not give them the facilities in perfect condition, and, therefore, that it would be right to permit the provision of refreshments in temporary buildings, subject to such conditions as the licensing justices may insert.
  Then came the question, at the very last stage of all—I think it was late on the Report stage—as to whether there ought not to be some limitation on the period for which the licence should be granted. That was a matter which the Home Secretary promised to consider. The Amendment says that the licensing justices may grant permission for a period "not exceeding five years." That does not mean necessarily that at the end of the five years the temporary premises must be pulled down. All it means is that at the end of five years, if conditions are very much as they are at the present time and it is impossible to put up a permanent building, and if the temporary premises are satisfactory, the licensing justices may grant a licence for a further period not exceeding five years. There would be an assurance, by virtue of this Amendment, that the matter would be kept under review not less often than once in five years. As the clause stands at present there is a danger that licences would be automatically renewed without consideration of the conditions. I feel that it would be wise to have this provision, so that the matter can be kept under periodic review. I may say that I am not wedded to five years, and if the noble Earl thinks that it should be rather more or less, I have no objection. I have given some thought to the matter—I personal responsibility for this Amendment—and I have come to the conclusion that five years would be about right. Somebody suggested ten years, but I felt that that was far too long. I hope that we can finish these proceedings harmoniously by the noble Earl accepting this very innocent Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 7, line 44, after ("such period") insert ("not exceeding five years").—(Lord Silkin.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: We have had impassioned appeals to-day on the subject of elasticity. Whilst I find myself in agreement with almost everything which the noble Lord has said, his Amendment raises just that precise difficulty. I should like to set the noble Lord's mind at rest in this respect. It is doubtful whether this clause is necessary at all, or whether it will be used. If the noble Lord reads it carefully, he will see that not only are there safeguards, but that the matters it refers to are extremely narrow. I should like to direct the noble Lord's attention to the top of page 8, where he will see how narrow the circumstances are in which this clause can come into play at all. It there says that the justices shall not refuse to grant a licence in respect of premises as
  "not being structurally adapted to the class of licence which is required"—
  and this is the important part—
  "by reason only of the materials of which the premises are constructed or to be constructed."—
  I do not know quite what that means. I presume that the magistrates have rules, and that it means that they may relax their rules a little in regard to materials. The other point is that the clause goes on to say:
  "or of the fact that the premises were constructed or have been used for other purposes.…"
  I am merely making the point that the extension there is extremely narrow.
  Over and above that, paragraph (a) says:
  "Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as requiring justices to grant an application for the grant of a licence for, or for a removal to, premises situated at the said place if in the opinion of the justices the premises are not proper to be used for the purpose."
  So the point is an extremely narrow one. Frankly, we have some doubt as to whether the power will be used at all. I would add this. I am quite certain that no development corporation is going to welcome ungainly and objectionable temporary premises. In the last few years we have had a pretty harsh experience of what temporary premises may look like. In each case a period is set. The noble Lord talked about extending that period. I would say that, so far as I know, that period has to be extended
  988
  by new proposals, although I may be wrong in my reading of that. It is quite a big thing and will not be lightly undertaken. In any case, these proposals in the original period have to be confirmed by the Minister. So that the extension of facility is very small, and there are considerable forces to see that it is not extended too long.
  Finally, I would say this. Is five years too long? I do not know. Would it be regarded as a normal period if it were put in the Statute? I would ask the noble Lord to consider withdrawing this Amendment, because I believe that it gives a rigidity where rigidity is undesirable. If we thought there was a period where it could be done, we should put it in. But when we think of the many different circumstances arising under the New Towns Act, we are forced to the conclusion that they are too varied to fix a period. I would impress on the noble Lord that we regard what he has said as important, and I believe that everybody will regard it as important, but, in the circumstances, I ask him to withdraw the Amendment.
  LORD SILKIN: I will accede to the noble Earl's request, but before I do so I should like to ask him something. Will he reconsider this matter in the light of what I have said, and the few words I want to say now? If he will do that, I am quite willing to withdraw the Amendment. There is no disagreement on principle. It is a difficult choice which has to be made, either to have nothing at all in many cases—which would be inconvenient to the inhabitants, and is not desirable, because it only encourages licensed premises on the borders of the new towns—or to have something temporary. Public opinion will not stand for the putting up of permanent premises at present, at the expense of housing and other more necessary things. Therefore, we have to accept the possibility of temporary licensed premises. They may be of timber—I hope they will not be Nissen huts—or they could conceivably be some building which nobody would deliberately choose as a public-house, but which, at a pinch, could be made suitable, and which the inhabitants would be willing to put up with for a time. That is provided for in Clause 5 of the Bill.

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  The question is: Should we have an unlimited period, or should we restrict it? Restricting it to five years is better than not restricting it at all. The noble Earl says that five years may be too long, but it is better than not having any period. The suggestion made in another place was ten years, but I am sure that that is too long. I am willing to do a deal with the noble Earl and say three years, if he feels that five years is too long. I suggest that the noble Earl considers five years which, on the whole, is going half-way between nothing and ten years. I hope the noble Earl will agree to that. I am sure, from what he has said himself, and from what was said in another place, there can be no dogmatic view about it, and no real reason for not having a time limit. I believe that there should be a time limit so that the matter can come under review from time to time. If the noble Earl will give the assurance that the point will be considered again, and that we can look at it on the Report stage, I am perfectly prepared to withdraw my Amendment.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I should be only too glad to "do a deal" with the noble Lord, though I am sure I should come off second best if I did. I should like him to consider this. There is a time limit which will be set in every case. It will be set by the corporation, and it will be confirmed by the Minister. If that is to be extended—and I have reinforced myself since I last spoke—new proposals will be necessary. That is no formality. The proposals have to be advertised; there can be objections to them, and they have to go to the Minister for confirmation. That is quite a step. What I am objecting to is the inelasticity of five years in all cases.
  LORD SILKIN: The words are "not exceeding five years." The licensing justices will still have discretion to permit a shorter period than five years, but it must not exceed five years.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: But would not the noble Lord he in precisely the same position? I do not know what the corporation will do, but what would the
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  noble Lord do? Would he say five or six years? Suppose that he puts in five years, and that every five years these applications arise. The situation is exactly the same as with the interim period—it will depend on the circumstances. One has to remember that many of these houses may be slightly below the standard. In fact, in some cases it may be that some old houses are better. I am afraid that I cannot accept the inelasticity of a fixed statutory period, and I feel that if the noble Lord thinks it over he will find there are plenty of safeguards for seeing that this thing is not allowed to drag on. I ask him again to withdraw his Amendment.
  LORD SILKIN: I will withdraw, on the understanding that I will look at it again myself, since the noble Earl is so inelastic as to refuse to do so. If I feel that, in the light of what has been said, I have to bring it up again, I hope he will not think I am discourteous in having another go.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 5 agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Schedule agreed to.
  House resumed.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  6.43 p.m.
  EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, before the House adjourns, I should inform your Lordships that we expect that all the necessary business will be completed by Thursday, October 30, and that Prorogation will take place shortly after 2.30 that afternoon, at which hour the House will meet.

  AGRICULTURE (CALF SUBSIDIES) BILL
  The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that the Bill had been endorsed with a certificate from the Speaker that it is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911.
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