Sitting of 11 November 1952

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Coronation (Seating Accommodation)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Works how many seats are being provided by his Department for the Coronation procession; to whom they are being allocated; and whether he is satisfied that the maximum number are being made available.
    Miss Burtonasked the Minister of Works if he will make a statement on the amount of seating accommodation on stands to be erected by his Department which he expects to be available to the general public for viewing the Coronation procession; and the probable range of prices to be charged.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. David Eccles): I hope to provide about 100,000 seats on stands erected by my Department in the Royal Parks and on Crown sites along the processional route. I may be able to add a little to this number, but I think it would be wrong to encroach on space traditionally used as standing room. One third of the seats will be allocated to oversea member countries of the Commonwealth and the Colonies. The balance will be allocated to national organisations in this country for distribution to their members. I cannot yet say exactly what prices will be charged, but the principle will be that the full cost of erecting the stands is reflected in the price of the seats.
    Mr. Freeman: In view of the fact that this will be one of the most popular and spectacular events, possibly, in British history, will the Minister assure us that every effort is being made to provide every opportunity and facility to all who
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    wish to witness it, both directly and indirectly and without undue exploitation?
    Mr. Eccles: Yes, Sir.
    Miss Burton: Am I correct in understanding from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman that only those members of the general public who are members of an association will have a chance of obtaining these seats? If that is the case, will the right hon. Gentleman see that members of the public who are not members of associations may have a chance of getting a certain number of seats?
    Mr. Eccles: I do not see any more fair method of allocating seats across the broad mass of the public. These national associations do, in fact, represent all walks of life, and they will get—as they did last time—certain blocks of seats. I feel sure that they will allot them so that we have a fair cross-section in the seats.
    Mr. Stokes: Will the Minister consider banking-up as much as possible those areas reserved for standing room only so that people behind can get a good view?
    Mr. Eccles: Yes, Sir. I have worked out a scheme whereby we can have a platform in front of a number of stands, which will double the standing room.
    Mr. Marlowe: Could my right hon. Friend say what he means by "national associations?"
    Mr. Eccles: In due course, I hope to publish the list of national associations. It ranges from trade unions and employers' associations to women's institutes; every conceivable kind of organisation will get a chance.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear that no useful purpose will be served by individual members of the public writing to individual hon. Members of this House, which makes it all the more important that the arrangements he makes should appear to be and actually be as fair as possible?
    Mr. Eccles: Yes, Sir, I will. I anticipate that I shall have more requests than even the hon. and gallant Member.

    Cement Supplies
    Mr. Ewartasked the Minister of Works what effect the shortage of bricks and cement in the North-East is having on the building programme; and how far the local authorities housing schemes are being held up.
    Mr. Eccles: During the past building season the demand for bricks and cement in the north-east has exceeded all forecasts, with the result that here and there building work has been delayed. At present my officers know of two local authority housing schemes suffering from a lack of cement, and they are seeing what can be done to help. A number of local authorities have complained of inadequate brick supplies for housing. My Department has generally been able to suggest alternative sources of bricks.
    Mr. Ewart: Is the Minister aware that there is no amelioration of the position today, and that complaints are still being received from local authorities and from the building trade about the serious disruption of the programme in this whole area because of the shortages mentioned in the Question?
    Mr. Eccles: The hon. Member talks about serious disruption, but the facts are that in his own borough in the first nine months of 1951 there were 674 houses completed as against 851 in the first nine months of this year. It is because we have done better that we have certain difficulties.
    Mr. Grey: Is the Minister aware that I have received information that certain buildings are at a complete standstill in Durham due to the shortage of cement? Can the right hon. Gentleman not do anything immediately to remedy this position?
    Mr. Eccles: There is a difficulty there. I believe it is due to the fact that three out of the four kilns at the Billingham Cement Works are stopped for repair. It is hoped to have them going again in a week or two.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman do everything possible within his power to help his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government to reach his housing target? Can we be assured that the right hon. Gentleman is not standing in the way of his right hon. Friend?
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Works the average weekly despatch of cement to the South-West from the beginning of July to the latest convenient date.
    Mr. Eccles: From 1st July to 18th October the average weekly delivery of cement to the South-Western Region was 12,892 tons.
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Works what steps he is taking to ensure regular and adequate supplies of cement to West Cornwall, parts of which have suffered, and are suffering, from shortage in supplies.
    Mr. Eccles: I have already asked the cement industry to increase the deliveries of cement to Cornwall. For the South-West Region deliveries are running at 12½ per cent. more than in the corresponding period of last year, against the national increase of 9½ per cent.
    Mr. Hayman: Is the Minister aware that the disruption of building work in Cornwall in recent months has been greater than for some years past owing to a lack of cement? Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the fact that I had a complaint from a builder only this morning, and will he ask the Cement Marketing Board to increase supplies?
    Mr. Eccles: The volume of work in Cornwall, I am glad to say, is very much greater than for years past. I have received advice from several people in Cornwall that the steps already taken have been of great advantage.
    Mr. G. R. Howard: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the very quick action he has taken in response to representations from other Cornish Members is very much appreciated?
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Works whether he is aware that there is a shortage of cement for building in Newport which is causing repeated delays in the erection of houses and flats; and what steps are being taken to augment the supply.
    Mr. Eccles: I am not aware of any serious delay in Newport in the erection of houses or flats due to shortage of cement; but I have asked the cement industry to increase deliveries to South Wales as soon as they can.

    Festival Pleasure Gardens
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Works what special attractions have been decided upon in connection with the Battersea Festival Pleasure Gardens in Coronation Year.
    Mr. Eccles: I am informed by the Board that they are making preparations for many special attractions, such as Coronation decorations, new features, and sensational outdoor acts. In due course, wide publicity will be given to these attractions. I understand the hon. Member has already discussed these plans with the managing director of the Company.
    Mr. Dodds: But does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that if there are to be these wonderful attractions it is no use keeping the news to a small circle of people, and that large organisations that arrange outings want to know six months ahead? Since I am raising the matter on the Adjournment on Friday, I shall not press the Minister further now.

    Westminster Hall (Roof Repairs)
    Mr. Edward Daviesasked the Minister of Works the nature of the roof repair now going on in Westminster Hall.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson): The work in the roof of Westminster Hall was the repair of a minor leak in the fléche.
    Mr. Shinwell: A thorn in the flesh?
    Mr. Davies: Is it not rather strange that, after the extensive work that went on some time ago, further work should now be necessary? Was not this discoverable then?
    Mr. Molson: Owing to the very extensive repairs that had to be carried out as a result of war damage, all the seasoned oak was used up and it was therefore necessary to buy some oak which was not fully seasoned. That was used for the fléche. It was known that there would be some shrinking, but it was hoped that it would not be as serious as it turned out to be.

    Trafalgar Square (Traders' Licences)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Works how many licences have been granted to sell bird food and take photographs in Trafalgar Square.
    Mr. Eccles: There are three licences in force for photography and two for corn selling.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the Minister aware that, by restricting so severely the licences for trading in Trafalgar Square, he has created a very valuable monopoly for a tiny number of privileged persons that will be worth about £30 a week during the Coronation period. Will the Minister look at some of the applications of ex-Service men whom he has turned out of the Square with little or no justification?
    Mr. Eccles: There are still 500 summonses outstanding against unlicensed photographers. Until those summonses have been dealt with, I am not satisfied that I should increase the number of licences for photography. When I have got the position clear, I may do so.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman gives the House an undertaking that when all this litigation is disposed of he will have another look at the matter?
    Mr. Eccles indicated assent.
    Mr. I. O. Thomas: Will the Minister indicate how many prosecutions he desires before he is satisfied that there is sufficient evidence for an increase in the number of photographers?
    Mr. Eccles: I do not desire prosecutions; the police instigate them.
    Mr. Godber: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he has had any protests in respect of this from any of the pigeons?

    Defence and Civil Departments (Staff)
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Minister of Works to what extent the 14,676 employees in his Department are engaged on common services for the defence Departments and civil Departments, respectively.
    Mr. Eccles: I am assuming that my hon. and gallant Friend, by "common

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    services," has in mind accommodation, maintenance, and the provision of gas, water, electricity, etc. It is not possible to apportion staff accurately as between civil and defence common services but, of a total of about 6,400 staff employed, the rough apportionment is 6,000 to civil and 400 to defence.

  RESEARCH

    Lung Cancer (Gas Workers)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, on what lines it is intended to pursue research into the special causes of lung cancer in gas workers through the agency of the Medical Research Council.
    Mr. Molson: The Medical Research Council has arranged for one of its expert committees to examine the possibilities. Until this committee has had time to consider the problem in detail, I shall not be able to indicate which lines of research are likely to be the most promising.
    Mr. Swingler: Will the hon. Gentleman ask his noble Friend to pursue this matter energetically? Would he consult the Minister of Fuel and Power, because one of the troubles is that two-thirds of the gas boards do not employ full-time medical staffs? Would this committee, therefore, enter into consultation with the Minister of Fuel and Power on that aspect and arrange for research?
    Mr. Molson: The whole matter is under careful consideration, and investigations have been made, as I indicated to the hon. Member on 21st October. The matter is still being followed up.

    Silicates, Oxides and Nitrides
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, to what extent research is being made into the use and development of silicates, oxides and nitrides from domestic sources; and what encouragement is being given to this research.
    Mr. Molson: Research into the development of new and extended uses for these substances is being actively pursued in a wide field by industry, research associations, Government research establishments and the universities. Both the
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    Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Ministry of Supply are encouraging and sponsoring research of this nature.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say to what extent we may hope in the near future to make ourselves less dependent on the import of foreign metal by the use of these domestic substances?
    Mr. Molson: Development on these lines has already begun. A number of the universities are carrying out research, and a number of industrial firms are engaged on small-scale production of these new products as a substitute for metals.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Ministry of Labour (Older Officers)
    Mr. Vaughan-Morganasked the Minister of Labour his policy for retaining older officers in the employment of his Department.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Harold Watkinson): The policy of my right hon. and learned Friend is that older officers who wish to stay should be retained as long as they remain fit and efficient and there is a real need for their services. In practice, most of the permanent staff retire between the ages of 60 and 65, but we have today in the Ministry more than 600 officers over 65 years of age, the majority of whom are temporary staff.
    As a result of contraction and reorganisation of work, the staff of the Ministry has been reduced by about one-third in the last five years. In consequence, there have been some redundancies, and it has therefore been necessary to retire a certain number of older officers, including a number at the minimum pensionable age of 60, in order to avoid over-staffing.
    I know the interest my hon. Friend takes in this matter and would assure him that what I have said does not represent any departure from the general aim of keeping all fit, efficient and willing officers as long as is practicable.
    Mr. Vaughan-Morgan: Would not my hon. Friend agree that where an officer is anxious and willing to stay on after the

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    age of 60, it would be better to keep him on and, if necessary, to reduce the intake into the Civil Service?
    Mr. Watkinson: I do not disagree with my hon. Friend on that point. But, to be fair to my own Ministry, I must say that we have entirely ceased recruiting to try to meet this difficulty. We are having only a very small number of cadets as direct university entrants and no other recruiting at all.
    Mr. H. Hynd: When permanent staff are retained after the normal retiring age, what precautions are taken to avoid the retarding of promotion for the rest of the staff?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am glad the hon. Member asked that question, because I hope I did not mislead the House by a supplementary answer I gave to the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) on a previous occasion; if I did, I apologise to the House. I said then that one of the reasons for retiring people of 60 was the bar to promotion. I am glad of the opportunity to make it plain to the House that that is not so, and that the policy of my Ministry is exactly as I have annunciated it in my answer this afternoon. I apologise to the House if I did mislead hon. Members on a previous occasion.

    Cardiff
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Labour the number of people in Cardiff who have been registered as unemployed for more than six months.
    Mr. Watkinson: Four hundred and sixty-eight at 15th September.
    Mr. Thomas: Would the Minister indicate whether that is an increase or a decrease?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am sure the hon. Member will be glad to know that that is some decrease on the figure at the same time last year.
    Mr. Thomas: Thank you very much.

    Short-Time, Wales
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Labour the number of working hours lost in Wales due to short-time working during the period October, 1950, to October, 1951; and during the period October, 1951, to October, 1952.
    Mr. Watkinson: As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Thomas: As the Question calls for two sets of figures only, can the Minister tell me whether there is an increase or a decrease here?
    Mr. Watkinson: Again I am very glad to be able to tell the hon. Member that it is a decrease. I will give him two figures; the figure for 30th August this year was 32,000, and the figure for the comparative period in 1951 was 45,000.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that we shall note with pleasure the advantage that Wales has compared with England in this matter?
    Following is the reply:
    Statistics of the total number of working hours lost owing to short-time working are not available. Employers in manufacturing industries, however, are asked to give information on their quarterly returns about short-time working in the weeks to which the returns relate, and the figures for quarterly dates since September, 1950, are given below:

    NUMBER OF WORKING HOURS LOST OWING TO SHORT-TIME WORKING AT MANUFACTURING ESTABLISHMENTS IN WALES FROM WHICH RETURNS WERE RECEIVED.

    Week ending

    30th September, 1950

    17,710

    30th December, 1950

    74,744

    31st March, 1951

    8,678

    30th June, 1951

    11,584

    22nd September, 1951

    45,748

    26th January, 1952

    80,669

    29th March, 1952

    60,314

    24th May, 1952

    147,596

    30th August, 1952

    32,088

    D. C. Thomson Limited (Dispute)
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the dispute between D. C. Thomson Limited and the National Society of Operative Printers and Assistants.
    Mr. Watkinson: As the House will be aware, the firm of D. C. Thomson Limited informed my right hon. and learned Friend in September last that they would cease their insistence on any of their employees signing an agreement not to belong to a trade union. This settled the fundamental issue of principle underlying this dispute, and the trade unions decided on 17th September to take the necessary

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    action to end any ban imposed on supplies and distribution affecting the firm. There remained the question of the reinstatement of the men, members of the National Society of Operative Printers and Assistants, who had come out on strike at Glasgow last April.
    It was hoped that, as soon as the firm's supplies and distribution of its publications were restored to normal, conditions would be created in which a mutually acceptable settlement of this outstanding question might be found, but I regret that this has not so far proved to be possible. A deputation from the Trades Union Congress on this subject was received last Friday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour, and consideration is being given to what further steps could be taken.
    Mr. Lee: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that to expect any trade union to call an end to a dispute while a considerable number of its members is still being victimised in pursuance of a principle which we as a nation have accepted within the convention of the I.L.O. is really asking too much? Would he ask his right hon. and learned Friend whether he would now agree that arbitration should be resorted to?
    Mr. Watkinson: I hope the hon. Member will not press that subject at the moment. I am sure he will agree that it is the desire of my right hon. and learned Friend to get a settlement as soon as he can, and I think that if we argue the point too much at the moment it will undoubtedly make that task much more difficult.
    Mr. Woodburn: Would not the Minister ask the Prime Minister to use his longstanding friendship with D. C. Thomson Limited to end this dispute?
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Freeman.
    Sir W. Smithers: On a point of order. Might I point out that on the very important question of D. C. Thomson Limited not one question was allowed from this side of the House?
    Mr. Speaker: That is a matter for the discretion of the Chair. The answer of the Minister seemed to indicate that further consideration was being given to the question.

    Dock Workers, Merseyside
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Minister of Labour how many dock workers on Merseyside are registered as unemployed or were, at the latest available date, signing on at the docks under the guaranteed wage arrangements; what proportion these figures represent of the total dock labour force; and what estimate he can make of the number of unemployed through the Governments import cuts and the recent decline in the export trade.
    Mr. Watkinson: During the week ending 1st November, the average number of registered dock workers on Merseyside proving attendance for whom work was not available was 5,056, or about 23.5 per cent. of the total number of dockers on the Merseyside registers. This surplus is, of course, largely due to a decline in imports and exports, but I am unable to estimate the proportions.
    Mr. Wilson: In view of these alarming figures and the fact that the hon. Gentleman has not given the full information asked for in the Question, in view also of the failure of the President of the Board of Trade to take energetic steps to provide alternative employment, will the hon. Gentleman say what prospects he sees of any improvement in employment in the docks on Merseyside in the next few months in the light of the import cuts and the disastrous decline in exports?
    Mr. Watkinson: If the right hon. Gentleman had been in his place yesterday he would have heard this matter very fully discussed. He would have heard the very full statement which was made by my right hon. and learned Friend on the matter. He would also have heard that my right hon. and learned Friend is meeting the National Dock Labour Board in about half an hour's time.
    Mr. Wilson: The statement yesterday by the right hon. and learned Gentleman was undoubtedly lengthy, but it did not deal with the prospects of trade. Will the hon. Gentleman say what prospect he sees of increasing the flow of trade and improving employment on Merseyside?
    Mr. Watkinson: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would put that question to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Shinwell: Cannot the hon. Gentleman answer the question? What is he there for?

    Revenue Department Estimators (Employment)
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Labour how many of the 460 estimators found redundant from his Department have been found employment; and what steps he proposes to take to ensure that these skilled personnel are usefully employed.
    Mr. Watkinson: I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the estimators recently declared redundant by the Inland Revenue Department with effect from 12th October. They have been advised to register with the appropriate offices of my Ministry, and I understand that about 50 of them have already found alternative employment.
    Mr. Peart: Will the hon. Gentleman carefully watch this matter, because here we have an important pool of skilled labour which should be used wisely?
    Mr. Watkinson: I agree. We are doing our best to find employment for these people.

  NATIONAL SERVICE

    Agricultural Workers (Call-up)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the recent concern expressed by the members of the National Farmers' Union of Scotland in Ayrshire about the continued call-up of agricultural workers for Her Majesty's Forces; and what action he proposes to take to end the call-up.
    Mr. Watkinson: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes," and to the second that my right hon. and learned Friend could not agree to discontinue the call-up in cases where no serious loss of food production is involved.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the National Farmers' Union in Ayrshire want to know how they can increase production if he is taking away the labour?
    Mr. Watkinson: The answer to that, as I think the hon. Gentleman knows, is that all these deferments are looked at very sympathetically; that 83 per cent. of the applications for deferment were
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    granted and 94 per cent. renewal applications were granted. As we are only taking half of those who normally become available to us out of the agricultural industry, I think we are trying to meet the case.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the assumption from the hon. Member's reply to the original Question that if men are taken away from the land food production is not retarded?
    Mr. Watkinson: The assumption—and I hope the right hon. Gentleman is not trying to mislead the House and the country again on the question of the call-up—is that men are deferred if there is a risk of serious loss of food production. If the agricultural advisory panels, which are not controlled by my Ministry, are satisfied that there is no serious loss of food production, these men become available for call-up.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the farmers in Ayrshire know a good deal more about this business than the Minister himself, and will he agree in the circumstances to receive a deputation from them?
    Mr. Watkinson: We shall be delighted.

    Personal Case
    Mr. Janneyasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to prevent a recurrence of cases similar to that of 22702478 Private J. E. Smith, of Leicester, who was called to National Service in the Army when he had a serious defect of the foot necessitating a major operation, and who is now to be discharged from the Army; and whether he will exempt from National Service in the Army men suffering from chronic illnesses or serious physical disabilities.
    Mr. Watkinson: I am satisfied that the decision of the National Service Medical Board, reached after a most careful examination of his foot, that Private Smith was fit for sedentary duties in the Army was correct. His discharge was due to a worsening of his condition after entry. Men who, on account of their medical condition, cannot be employed in the Services are not called up.
    Mr. Janner: Surely the Minister is aware that that is not the correct answer

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    to this Question, and that in fact—[Interruption.] Is the Minister not aware of the fact that the orthopaedic specialist at the Leicester Infirmary declared that this man was not fit for service and that he brought that statement to the notice of the Medical Board at the time; that they made no inquiry of this specialist at all so far as anyone is aware, and will the Minister see to it that the money of the country and the time of these people is not wasted in cases of this kind?
    Mr. Watkinson: I think the hon. Member was misled by the fact that undoubtedly Private Smith was awaiting an operation on his foot. But while he was awaiting that operation he was still able to walk two miles a day.
    Mr. Janner: But is the Minister aware that I am not satisfied with that reply, and will he be good enough to look into the papers again to see what is the actual position?
    Mr. Watkinson indicated assent.
    Mr. Bellenger: Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise that there is a serious point of principle at stake here? He said in his answer that this man was called up for certain duties and his condition worsened during his military service. Thereby he would become prima facie entitled to a pension because of aggravation. Will the hon. Gentleman be careful about calling up such men, who can only be a burden to the taxpayer?
    Mr. Watkinson indicated assent.

  INDEX OF RETAIL PRICES
  Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Labour whether he will publish a list of all articles or other items of expenditure which are affected by the cost-of-living index which have gone up in price during the last 12 months; and the amount of such increase.
  Mr. Watkinson: Each month's issue of the Ministry of Labour Gazette gives information about the changes of the prices of the goods and services included in the official Index of Retail Prices. Additional details are given once a quarter in the Gazette.
  Mr. Freeman: Cannot the hon. Gentleman publish the list of such articles or items, or is the list so long that it is like Scrooge's chain—too long and ponderous even to enumerate?
  Mr. Watkinson: Details are given in the Gazette.

  EDUCATION, SCOTLAND

    Teachers' Superannuation Contributions
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what changes he is contemplating in teachers' contributions to the Teachers' Superannuation Scheme.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Henderson Stewart): I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a letter about proposed changes in the Scottish Teachers' Superannuation Scheme, which was sent last July to the associations of local authorities and teachers in Scotland.
    Mr. Ross: Am I right in thinking that this means an increase in the teachers' contributions, which will virtually mean a cut in teachers' salaries, and is it wise at a time when the recruitment of teachers is causing concern to start such an action?
    Mr. Stewart: As no doubt the hon. Member knows, we are discussing this matter with the two associations. We have already discussed it with the E.I.S. We are looking forward to hearing from the local authority associations. The difficulty of the problem is fully understood.
    Mr. Rankin: Can the Minister tell us what has been the reaction of the E.I.S. to the letter he sent them?
    Mr. Stewart: The E.I.S. were opposed to an increase.

    New School Building
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the value of new school building under construction in November, 1951; and the value of that authorised since that date.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: It is not possible to state the value of educational building in progress at any particular

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    date, but it is estimated that, when completed, the value of educational buildings under construction at the end of November, 1951, will be £12 million. Since then, work to the estimated value of £3,657,000 has been allowed to start.
    Mr. Ross: But is it not clear that, in spite of the efforts of local education committees to look after the long-term aspect, particularly in Scotland, and to deal with an expected crisis in secondary school places, the effect of the Government's policy is that that crisis will come in about five years' time?
    Mr. Stewart: There are other elements which might bear upon the problem in a different way, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
    Mr. Ross: Is it not the case that the local education authorities are pressing for the starting of further schemes and that the Government are holding them back and denying them permission?
    Mr. Stewart: That is true, but the main reason holding them back is the shortage of steel and other materials. If there were not a shortage of steel and other materials we should be glad to push forward.

    School Meals Kitchens
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many school kitchens have been closed in the last year; and for what purposes the cooking equipment from those kitchens is to be used.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: During the 12 months ended 30th September, 1952, 15 school meals kitchens have been closed. Two more will shortly be closed. Some of these kitchens, with their equipment, are being maintained for Civil Defence Emergency Feeding purposes. In the others, the equipment is being maintained, until the prospective demand for school meals can be more clearly seen.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether he has been approached by any of the hospital authorities which could make good use of this equipment, and, if such representations have been made, would he indicate what is the reaction of the Minister to them?
    Mr. Stewart: I am not aware of such approaches, although they may well have been made, but I will inquire into them and inform the hon. Gentleman.

    Temporary School Accommodation
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local education authorities are now using accommodation other than school buildings for the teaching of children; and how this figure compares with that of a year ago.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: Twenty-eight education authorities were using such accommodation during the year ended 30th June, 1952, as compared with 29 the previous year.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the Minister indicate exactly the nature of this accommodation and say how many school places are being catered for by it? Furthermore, can he indicate what are the prospects for the next year or two?
    Mr. Stewart: Most of the hired premises, if not all, are halls used for general recreational purposes. I think the tendency is for the hiring of premises to go down; at any rate, it has been falling during the past 12 months.

  SCOTLAND

    Dentists
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the numbers of dentists in general practice and in school dental service separately at the most recent date, and in December, 1951, respectively.
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many dentists have entered the school dental service in the last nine months; and to what extent the service is now below establishment.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Commander T. D. Galbraith): The number of dentists in general practice taking part in the National Health Service has fallen from 1,254 at the end of 1951 to 1,210 at the end of last month. In the same period the number of dentists in the school service has increased from 104 to 131. There is no formal establishment of dentists in the school service, but I am advised that the present number, which is equal to the highest number ever before, is still far short of the total that could usefully be employed.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the Minister give the reasons, or what he thinks are the

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    reasons, for the increase in the number of dentists now going into the school dental service? Is it because of the recent Health Service charges that dentists are now being driven into the school service as private practice is less remunerative?
    Commander Galbraith: No, Sir. It is due, in the first place, to the improved salary scales in the school dental service, and also to the reduction in the numbers attending the general dental service.
    Sir W. Darling: Does my hon. and gallant Friend accept the suggestion from the opposite benches that dentists are "being driven" into the school service?

    Milk Tests
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what tests are now required to ensure a pure milk supply; and if he is satisfied that the present tests and classifications make milk safe for infants and children.
    Commander Galbraith: The information desired would involve a rather long and complicated reply. It is given in the Schedules to the Milk (Special Designations) (Scotland) Order, 1951, and I am sending the hon. Member a copy. I am satisfied that the requirements of this Order with regard to the various designations of milk are sufficient to ensure a safe milk supply for infants and children.

    Fish Transport Charges
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the absence of a flat-rate for the carriage of fish from the North of Scotland fishing ports to the consuming centres further south tends to kill whole fishing communities which are national assets; and if he will take immediate steps to have this problem dealt with on a national basis.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: The introduction of a flat-rate transport scheme for white fish is a matter in the first place for the White Fish Authority, and they have decided not to propose it.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the absence of a flat-rate is due to a broken promise by the White Fish Authority, and that it is prejudicial to our national defence, as well as to the fishing industry? Will he consult with
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    the Prime Minister with a view to eliminating this adverse discrimination against Scotland and see that justice is done?
    Mr. Stewart: The hon. and learned Gentleman may be assured that, so far as we are concerned and while we are in power, justice will be done.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the Joint Under-Secretary aware that the British Transport Commission are about to ask for a 5 per cent. increase in freight charges, which will mean an immense burden on the northern ports, and will he therefore press the Transport Tribunal to consider, as a matter of urgency, an extended scheme of tapering charges?
    Mr. Stewart: My noble Friend may be assured that we are in close touch with the transport authorities on behalf of Scottish interests, and that we are doing our utmost to improve conditions.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that he has overlooked that portion of my Question which asked him to have the matter raised on a national level, because it affects our national defence as well as the fishing industry, and will he therefore consult with the Prime Minister to have this matter dealt with on a national level so that justice is done?
    Mr. Stewart: I cannot undertake to do quite that, but I certainly assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that this matter is not regarded as of minor importance, but as one of the utmost importance for all purposes.

    Oats Certification Scheme (Acreage)
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what percentage of the total cereal acreage of Scotland is being used for the Oats Certification Scheme of his Department.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. McNair Snadden): The acreage certified under the Scheme this year is 1,295 acres, or a little over 0.1 per cent. of the total Scottish cereal acreage of 1,160,513 acres.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: In view of the very low percentage of the acreage used in the scheme, does the Joint Under-Secretary think it is advisable that it should be continued, and, if so, will he look again at the way in which it is devised in order to make it more popular?
    Mr. Snadden: The noble Lady will appreciate that this scheme has been in being only since 1950, and that that is only two years ago. I think that the acreage of 1,295 of the highest quality seed is, at any rate, not unsatisfactory.

    Television, North-East
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will receive the deputation from Aberdeen Town Council to discuss the provision of television for the Coronation.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: My right hon. Friend is in touch with his noble Friend the Postmaster-General and will write to the Town Council as soon as possible.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the Joint Under-Secretary aware that Aberdeen Town Council wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland on 24th September asking if he would receive a deputation, and that, to date, no reply has been received to that request? Will the Secretary of State therefore receive a deputation from the Aberdeen Town Council, in view of the fact that, in any representations which he makes to the Postmaster-General on this important subject of television for the North-East, he would be fortified by the views of this influential body?
    Mr. Stewart: I have checked up on this matter in order to reply to the noble Lady, and I find that due acknowledgment was sent to the Town Council's letters, and that an interim reply has been sent since. I think the point was that my right hon. Friend did not feel that it would be worth while for the Town Council to come down to London until he had some useful information to offer them. As soon as he is able to offer them useful information, he will be delighted to receive them.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Will the Minister draw the attention of the Assistant Postmaster-General to the outrage which he has perpetrated in altering the priorities with regard to television, to the prejudice of North-East Scotland, and will he see that justice is done in that matter?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Does not the Joint Under-Secretary think that, in view of the public interest aroused in this subject in
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    the North-East of Scotland, it would have been advisable, at any rate, to reply to the point made in the letter as to whether the Secretary of State would receive a deputation? I have had an opportunity of seeing the correspondence, and I can say that that point has not been replied to.
    Mr. Stewart: I can only assure my noble Friend that no discourtesy whatever was intended, and that my right hon. Friend will be delighted to receive a deputation as soon as he has something useful to say to them.

    National Health Prescriptions (Cost)
    Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why the average cost per prescription dispensed under the National Health Service in Scotland is substantially in excess of the average cost in England and Wales.
    Commander Galbraith: The average cost in Scotland is higher mainly for two reasons—that the ingredients cost more and that we have to pay a higher dispensing fee. But the average cost per prescription is not a good measure of the total cost to the National Health Service. A better figure of comparison is the average annual cost per patient, and, on this figure, there is no significant difference between Scotland and England.
    Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in future annual reports of the Department of Health, he will provide in Appendix 10, not only the monthly figures of prescriptions dispensed, but also the monthly cost and average cost of prescriptions issued.
    Commander Galbraith: My right hon. Friend intends to do so, in so far as the information is available at the time of publication of the report.

  HOUSING, SCOTLAND

    Houses for Sale
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if his attention has been drawn to the increasing number of houses for sale, and the diminishing number of houses to rent; and what proposals he has to ensure an availability of houses to rent for those who are in urgent need.
    Commander Galbraith: I am told that the number of existing rented houses actually being sold is small. On the other hand, over 20,000 new houses were completed during the first nine months of this year for letting, against 15,400 in the same period last year. The number of houses for renting, therefore, far from diminishing, is increasing.
    Mrs. Mann: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the number of privately owned houses to rent is greatly diminished, that many of our population cannot qualify for a council house, and that it is these people who are now being forced to buy? Can he do something about it?
    Commander Galbraith: That is not in accordance with the information which I have obtained.
    Mr. Patrick Maitland: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the Lanarkshire County Council has recently refused to allocate licences for private building?
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes to take to bring the prices of houses for sale in Scotland into similar percentage above pre-war figures as those offered for sale in England.
    Commander Galbraith: The hon. Member's suggestion would involve a close control over the selling price of houses which seems neither practicable nor desirable.
    Mrs. Mann: Is the Minister aware that local authorities have the power to take over houses and that, in taking them over, they need not pay these exploitation prices? Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman encourage local authorities to do that where he knows that the prices are really sheer exploitation?
    Commander Galbraith: I know that the local authorities have these powers.
    Mrs. Cullen: Is the Minister aware that in my constituency single houses in tenement buildings are being sold, and will he take immediate steps to do something to stop this ramp at the expense of homeless people?
    Commander Galbraith: Might I remind the hon. Lady that the recent Labour Government found it impossible to accept
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    the recommendations of the Morris Committee?
    Mr. Woodburn: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the granting of time to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) to bring in a Bill to prevent the sale of houses?
    Commander Galbraith: The right hon. Gentleman knows that that question should be addressed to another source.

    Timber Houses
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the 3,000 non-traditional houses ordered from the Weir Housing Corporation have been completed; and whether further large-scale orders for non-traditional houses are in prospect.
    Commander Galbraith: I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the programme of timber houses. The first of these will be finished towards the end of November. I am not at this stage in a position to make any statement about a further programme of timber houses.
    Mr. Maitland: May I ask the Joint Under-Secretary whether he is aware that, on a previous occasion, the reply was that there was not enough soft timber, although the then Secretary for Overseas Trade said there was? Will he therefore look into the whole problem again, with a view to extending this purchasing programme?

    Self-Help Associations
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further progress has been made in setting up self-help building associations following his circular to local authorities last April.
    Commander Galbraith: So far as I am aware, seven inquiries in all have been addressed to local authorities following the issue of the Circular. As a result, five associations have so far been approved in principle by the local authority concerned.
    Mr. Maitland: In view of the gratifying results that have followed from the Circular which the Secretary of State issued last April, will my hon. and gallant Friend draw further attention to it, because a number of local authorities do

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    not seem to be aware that there are self-help housing groups ready to help themselves, and that there is authority for going ahead?
    Commander Galbraith: I will consider it.

    East Kilbride Development Corporation
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses had been completed by the East Kilbride Development Corporation by 15th October, 1952.
    Commander Galbraith: The Corporation had completed 502 houses at 25th October, the date of the latest available return.
    Mr. Maitland: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that that represents a rate of completion of roughly half of what he himself forecast on the Floor of this House last May, and will he look into the matter?
    Commander Galbraith: May I point out to my hon. Friend that the average rate of completions per month is gradually increasing? There is now available a much larger labour force than there was previously, and there seems no reason at the present moment to doubt that the target figure may well be reached.
    Mr. Maitland: Since the target figure was to be 500 in the current financial year and the completions to date represent about 250, may I ask how my hon. and gallant Friend is going to get another 250 in the next two months?
    Commander Galbraith: My hon. Friend is mistaken. The financial year ends at 31st March.

  WORLD PEACE
  Mr. Lewisasked the Prime Minister if he has yet made an approach to the President of the United States of America and Marshal Stalin for three-Power talks on international problems.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on 21st October.
  Mr. Lewis: Yes, but is not the Prime Minister aware that that reply, like the
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  former one, is a complete evasion? Is he not aware of the fact that he and his party gained many thousands of votes at the last election by making this promise? Is he not further aware of the fact that the people of this country believe that it would have been better for him to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all? Can he say what made him change his mind within a few weeks of taking office?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Lewis: In view of the Prime Minister's deliberate attempt to refuse to answer, I beg to give notice, Mr. Speaker, that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

  ATOM BOMB TEST (DATA)
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Prime Minister how far the recent experiments culminating in the explosion of the British atom bomb at Monte Bello have provided data of other than exclusive military significance.
  The Prime Minister: I am advised that the explosion enabled us to determine accurately certain nuclear constants whose precise values will be useful in future work on the civil uses of atomic energy.
  Mr. Bellenger: Has the Prime Minister observed that in the United States civil industry is being linked up with some of the atomic research? Is it not possible for greater information, without prejudice of course to the security of the country, to be given to industry in this country so that we shall be able to develop eventually as fast as America?
  The Prime Minister: That is only remotely connected with the Question on the Order Paper.
  Mr. de Freitas: Since the current Civil Defence manual on this subject deals exclusively with the 1945 Hiroshima type of bomb, will the Prime Minister ensure that the Home Secretary publishes an up-to-date manual showing the methods of Civil Defence and the precautions that can be taken to minimise the dangers that would result from the use of this type of atomic bomb?
  The Prime Minister: All these matters will be carefully studied and considered.

  OFFICIAL WAR HISTORY (SEA OPERATIONS)
  Mr. Callaghanasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the official history of sea operations during 1939–45 has not yet been published; and if he will hurry it up.
  The Prime Minister: The first of the three volumes of this history will shortly be sent to press and will be published next year. I cannot yet say when the other two volumes will appear.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the Prime Minister aware that if he would like to complete the other two volumes himself hon. Members on this side of the House would be only too willing to give him the necessary leave of absence?
  The Prime Minister: I am not complimented by the fact.

  WELSH AFFAIRS (UNDER-SECRETARY)
  Mr. T. W. Jonesasked the Prime Minister when he proposes to make an announcement on the appointment of a Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department and Welsh Affairs.
  The Prime Minister: I hope to do so before long. In the meantime, although the Home Office is short of an Under-Secretary, there is a Minister for Welsh Affairs in the Cabinet.
  Mr. G. Thomas: Is the Prime Minister aware that the patience of the Welsh people is beginning to wear very thin, and that if this is really an important post we cannot understand the Prime Minister being defeated by such difficulties as confront him?
  The Prime Minister: I am giving careful consideration to the matter. I should not like to do anything less than the best.
  Mr. Ross: Does the Prime Minister realise that it would meet greatly with the wishes of the people of Scotland to give a free transfer to one of our three Under-Secretaries?

  KOREA (VISIT OF GENERAL EISENHOWER)
  Mr. Callaghanasked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for the Minister of Defence to visit Korea at the same time
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  as the President-Elect of the United States in order that Britain may be represented at the talks that will take place.
  Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Prime Minister if he has accepted the invitation of the President-Elect of the United States for a member of Her Majesty's Government to accompany him in Korea.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. With the permission of the House, I will answer at the same time Question No. 53; no such invitation has been received.
  According to my information, General Eisenhower intends to visit Korea to examine the scene for himself. We are sure that Her Majesty's Government and other members of the Commonwealth will be consulted on any important changes of policy.
  Mr. Callaghan: Is not the purpose of the visit, in General Eisenhower's own words, to examine every course that is likely to bring the war to an end? If, as we all hope, he is likely to be successful, would it not be an advantage if the Minister of Defence were there at the same time?
  The Prime Minister: I think that that point was fully covered by my answer.
  Major Legge-Bourke: Are we to understand from my right hon. Friend's original answer that a statement attributed to General Eisenhower after his election that he would welcome a Member of Her Majesty's Government accompanying him to Korea was in fact, never made? If so, can my right hon. Friend say how it came about that it was published?
  The Prime Minister: I really cannot answer questions about statements made by foreign statesmen. I cannot do so, at any rate not without specific notice. It may well be that General Eisenhower may have used the expression suggested, but so far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned we have not received anything in the nature of an official invitation, and I have nothing to add to what I have said.
  Mr. Callaghan: Do we need an invitation to go to Korea? Does the Prime Minister not think that, if anything comes out of this mission at all, at least our own Minister of Defence should be there?
  The Prime Minister: I do not myself consider that that would be the most advantageous course. If any serious changes are proposed, I think they should be discussed in the usual manner through the Foreign Office and also, if necessary, between heads of Governments and States.
  Mr. Callaghan: Has the Prime Minister made that point clear in Washington?
  The Prime Minister: If I am addressed I should certainly respond in a manner which would be readily comprehended.

  BRITISH NAVAL FORCES, KOREA
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister how far British naval forces are taking part in the enforcement of a maritime defence zone in Korean waters, which has been the subject of a Russian Note to the United States Government; and whether he will make a statement on the position, in view of the fact that all naval forces in Korean waters are acting on behalf of the United Nations.
  The Prime Minister: On 27th of September last the Commander-in-Chief, United Nations Command, proclaimed a maritime defence zone around the coasts of Korea. The object of the zone is to prevent interference with the activities of the United Nations forces, and also the landing of agents and guerillas. Through shipping is not affected. Her Majesty's ships have not so far been called on to assist in enforcing the proclamation.
  Mr. Henderson: Will the Prime Minister indicate that it is the view, at any rate of Her Majesty's Government, that any action taken by the forces of the United Nations in Korea is the responsibility of all members of the United Nations and is not to be placed merely on the United States?
  The Prime Minister: I see no reason to doubt that the broad general facts of our relationship with other Powers and the United Nations in Korea are fairly well known.

  RAILWAY NATIONALISATION (COMPENSATION)
  Mr. Jayasked the Prime Minister what steps he proposes to take to reduce the financial obligations borne by the Transport Commission arising out of the compensation paid for the railways.
  The Prime Minister: All these matters will no doubt be fully ventilated in the debates on the Transport Bill.
  Mr. Jay: But if the Prime Minister does not propose to do anything, why did he utter these mysterious threats against the stockholders last week? Does he think that the compensation paid by the Labour Government was or was not too high?
  The Prime Minister: I certainly do not intend to anticipate what may well be matters to be referred to in the forthcoming debate.

CORONATION CEREMONY (TELEVISION)
The Prime Minister: I will, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, make a short statement.
With reference to the correspondence I recently had with the Leader and Deputy-Leader of the Opposition about television at the Coronation, I should like to inform the House that I will circulate the correspondence in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the correspondence:
10, Downing Street,
Whitehall.
28 th October, 1952.
MY DEAR ATTLEE,
In view of our discussions after Question time today I send you a copy of the paper which was sent on 15th July from the Secretary of the Coronation Commission to you and Morrison. You will notice that on Page 7, Paragraph 5, it is distinctly stated that the Committee's view that television should be restricted to the processions west of the Choir Screen was "fortified by the knowledge that the problem had recently been considered by the Cabinet and that the views of the Cabinet were similar to those which were expressed." This fact was also made public in the Duke of Norfolk's communiqué issued on 20th October in which he said that the decision of the Coronation Joint Executive Committee had been made "with the consent of the Coronation Commission and after receiving the advice of the Cabinet."
I had not seen the public communiqué and did not feel I had authority without consultation to reveal the opinion of any members of the Coronation Commission or the Coronation Committee of the Privy Council. Otherwise I would, of course, have said that the Cabinet's agreement with the recommendations had already been made public by the Earl Marshal.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) WINSTON S. CHURCHILL.
The Right Hon. C. R. Attlee, O.M., C.H., M.P.
A similar letter was sent to the Right Hon. HERBERT MORRISON, C.H., M.P.
House of Commons,
London, S.W.1.
29 th October, 1952.
MY DEAR PRIME MINISTER,
Thank you so much for sending me a copy of the report of the Coronation Committee.
I recall now that I saw this but the particular point with regard to television escaped my attention.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) C. R. ATTLEE.
The Right Hon. WINSTON S. CHURCHILL., O.M., C.H., M.P.,
10, Downing Street,
S.W.1.
House of Commons,
London, S.W.1.
29 th October, 1952.
MY DEAR PRIME MINISTER,
I am obliged to you for your letter and enclosure of 28th October. It is good of you to explain how the misunderstanding about the Cabinet expression of view occurred. No doubt you will clear it up when you next make a statement on TV and the Coronation.
I return herewith copy of C.C.P.C.7 you were good enough to enclose with your letter.
With regard to your inquiry, I still have the original copy (which was sent to me) in safe keeping.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) HERBERT MORRISON.
The Right Hon. W. L. S. CHURCHILL, O.M., C.H., M.P.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
No notices of Motions on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy, Army, Air or Civil Estimates to be given in anticipation of the ballot to be held on the first Thursday in February.—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  QUEEN'S SPEECH

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS
    [SIXTH DAY]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment [10 th November] to Question [4th November]:
    "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:—
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[Major Anstruther-Gray.]
    Which Amendment was, at the end of the Question, to add:
    "But humbly regret that while the Gracious Speech demonstrates the determination of the Government to introduce confusion into basic industries which were in process of being integrated and developed in the nation's interest, it discloses no positive and effective proposals for dealing with the serious economic position of the country which is evidenced by the decline in production and exports, growing unemployment and short-time working and increased cost of living; and this House has no confidence in Your Majesty's present advisers whose policies threaten a return to the social conditions of the inter-war years."—[Mr. H. Morrison.]
    Question again proposed. "That those words be there added."
    3.33 p.m.

  ECONOMIC SITUATION
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): I should first of all like to thank the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) for his very sympathetic references to me yesterday, and to apologise to the House for my absence, the reasons for which I am sure they will all fully understand. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
  As we enter upon this new Session, I think we can legitimately take heart from the great record of positive achievement that stands to the credit of the Government over the past year. Our economy, besides sustaining a social service system which has been positively improved in the period, has carried a defence programme second to none for a country of

  769
  our size, thereby maintaining and indeed enhancing our national status in the councils of the nations.
  At home, in the face of exceptional difficulties, we have maintained a high level of employment and have killed the story that a Conservative Government would plunge the country into industrial strife, and so that story goes the way of the war scare. The credit is largely due to my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour for his really magnificent contribution to better relations with industry.
  Perhaps the best tribute to the success of our economic policy was contained in the subdued speech of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South yesterday. At times the right hon. Gentleman could hardly prevent his normal common sense from peeping through. At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman can feel a little more elated today after the result of the recent election. I do not, of course, refer to the American elections. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have all been in a great state of suspense for some time in all quarters of the House trying not to take part in the American elections. The right hon. Gentleman and his friends have now imposed a great extra strain upon us in trying not to take sides in the contest which is going on on the other side of the House.
  The only difference between the strain which we have undergone and the strain which we are about to undergo is that we know that the conflict opposite will go on not only for many months but also for several years, and it is very doubtful whether the party opposite will be in a fit state for a very long time to come to consider taking over the government of the country.
  It is at least satisfactory that in the face of this we can all register together a great improvement in our overseas finances, and indeed it is refreshing for me and for Her Majesty's Government—and, I hope sincerely, for all hon. Members in all quarters of the House—to register this result almost exactly a year after I had to introduce some very hard and unpleasant measures from this Box shortly after becoming Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  From the shadow of an overwhelming crisis we have taken a great stride forward, from a deficit of about £460
  770
  million a year in 1951, first to a balance and then to a surplus which, in the first half of this year, was at an annual rate of nearly £50 million; and therefore we have achieved the target which I gave to the House of an over-all balance half a year ahead of time. At least, reserves have now reached some state of stability, and while we must expect ups and downs, the October surplus of £29 million marks a further stage in our progress.
  In all this we have, of course, had great support from our partners in the sterling Commonwealth following upon our January Conference which the right hon. Gentleman who is to follow me, my predecessor in office, has tried hard to prove was a failure and which in fact has been proved by events to have been highly successful. So far as we ourselves are concerned in the United Kingdom we have achieved this result by an improvement in the balance of our visible trade, helped—and I acknowledge this—by a favourable turn in the terms of trade and, of course, by American defence aid. But it will be noticed that in October we had a substantial surplus even without aid.
  We have had to cut imports drastically, but we hope not to restrict trade with Europe further. Nor have we had to run down stocks of food and raw materials as the hon. Member for Fulham, East (Mr. M. Stewart) suggested last Wednesday. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Economic Affairs corrected him at the time, but I think it well to make a further explicit statement.
  While stocks of particular commodities have varied considerably over the seasons, as they always do, nevertheless total stocks of imported food and raw materials in this country have been rising steadily ever since we took office. So we have now established a base camp from which we must start the really arduous part of the climb back to security and prosperity, and I think it would be wrong on any side of the House if we underestimated the hard job we have still got before us, and if we sat back at all in contentment even with the achievement which is already ours.
  What is the contribution of the Opposition? I hope and I believe more than their tactical Amendment suggests. We certainly need in this task the help of all men of good will, and, as I am convinced

  771
  that their Amendment is going to be roundly defeated, I hope that, having survived that further disappointment, hon. Members opposite will help us, as many of them have, in this task of restoring national solvency and prosperity.
  The Amendment is meant to hurt, and the barb is in this word "confusion." What a word to come from the benches opposite. I do not think that anybody will wonder why this was included in the Amendment, because confusion can hardly ever have been worse confounded than as exhibited on the benches opposite at the present time. There is a complete confusion of rival views and a war of dynasties between rival personalities. With such internal strife, even the appearance of unity in such an Amendment can only be achieved at a price, and the price is shown in the last phrase, which demands that the whole Labour movement shall look backwards into the past.
  Evidently it is only by looking backwards that the party opposite can agree. They can achieve a temporary unity in gazing in a distorting mirror of the past, but facing the future involves them in severe and impossible contortions. When the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) peers into the future, where does he think we are going? Last Wednesday he said that we are moving towards mass unemployment, to the uprooting of whole communities from their homes, and to great social dislocation of many kinds. If that is how he and his friends see the future, no wonder they lost Wycombe and will lose the other by-elections to come. The truth is that there has been so much exaggeration in the propaganda of the party opposite that the country has learned to discount it. I think that is the best answer to the Amendment, and I will therefore come to the more serious arguments contained in the speeches which have been made.
  The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland talked about a policy of deliberate deflation. He presumably prefers to forget that one of his right hon. Friends who is usually prominently associated with finance—the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay)—writing soon after my Budget, described it as the first actively and openly inflationary Budget since the war. The truth is that our financial and economic policy, of which
  772
  the Budget was naturally a major part, was framed to keep a balance between the dangers of strict deflation and runaway inflation. That may explain why the attacks on it have been so contradictory, so ineffective and—to revert to that unfortunate word—so confused.
  I now want to review the policy initiated in the Budget in the light of events and to show why I think it has been amply justified both in what it did and what it was unable to do. Many people have been quick to say that everything has not turned out exactly as expected. Such criticisms misunderstand that to be successful a policy must be based more on judgment than on statistics. Naturally a Budget must be founded on the best analysis which can be made of the situation at the time and of possible trends in the future, but even the right hon. Gentleman who is to follow me and who will no doubt have something to say on this subject cannot claim from his own experience that all the detailed estimates will prove to be precisely accurate. Economics is not yet and may never be—I do not want to shock the right hon. Gentleman—an exact science; but it does at least provide a background against which a judgment can be made of the situation as a whole and of what may be required.
  At the time of the Budget, some people, especially some writers, thought that I was not severe enough. Now hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite claim that we are swinging the economy into a severe deflation. Let me examine various aspects of the situation and give the House all the information I can. The Exchequer deficit is higher now than it was at an equivalent time a year ago. It is true that since the Budget we have had some unexpected additions to our expenditure. One of these—the Danckwerts Award to the doctors—is well known and is no result of the policy undertaken by the present Government.
  Another was the accelerated orders for textiles—mainly for the Services—which we announced in April, with the general approval of the House. This was surely an example of our intention to mitigate the danger of severe unemployment, and the success of our policy may surely be seen from the fact that since May of this year the number of people registered as unemployed in the textile

  773
  industry has fallen by no less than 100,000. Thank God for that. I believe that is money well spent. The Minister of Labour put the unemployment position in its true perspective and answered the speech of the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) in advance.
  Returning to the question of expenditure, I want now to inform the House that, partly as the result of the decision about textile orders and partly through the good progress we are making with defence production and its associated research and development, the expenditure of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply is likely to turn out considerably above the original Estimate. In due course we shall be presenting a Supplementary Estimate. If the funds of the Department are exhausted before the Supplementary Estimate can be presented, the excess expenditure will be financed from the Civil Contingencies Fund.
  It seems clear, also, that the expenditure of the Defence Departments will be at least up to the Budget figures. I am expecting that in the case of the Army, at any rate, it will be necessary to present a Supplementary Estimate early in 1953. I cannot now give the precise figures either for these Votes or for the probable out-turn of expenditure as a whole. At this time of year, with five more months to run, we cannot say with certainty by how much expenditure may in fact outrun particular Estimates, or how far any such excesses can be covered by compensation saving in this or other fields. We are not losing any chances of making this saving and it will certainly, as is usual, be substantial. I thought that I should let the House know of those matters so that they have as much information as I have.
  Meanwhile, looking at the Budget as a whole, we must remember that on the revenue side the big increase for which I budgeted from Inland Revenue does not come in until later in the year; so, taking all factors into account, I still believe that the general policy I had in mind in framing the Budget as a whole will prevail. Nevertheless, it is true that our experience this year gives added emphasis to the need for the strictest possible scrutiny of public expenditure and thus of the Estimates for next year. This process is now beginning and it is too early to tell
  774
  the House how it will turn out. The results will, of course, be laid before the House in the Estimates at the proper time, when the Estimates are published.
  I must tell the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South that I cannot today distract him from his own conflicts by engaging in battle with my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law), who spoke yesterday, or my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson). We on this side of the House are continually engaged, not in a struggle with each other, but in the joint struggle to reduce Government expenditure. I am entertained to notice that there appears to have been so little copy in the debate hitherto that the newspapers have got hold of an idea that my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham are rather wild men. From my very close knowledge of them and my friendship with them for many years, all I can say is that I should much prefer to do battle with them than to be in the shoes of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South and do battle with the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan).
  The House may be interested to know what progress we have made in certain cutting of expenditure which can be announced. In the first half of this year, we reduced the size of the Civil Service by 10,400. In a week or so we shall be publishing figures showing a further reduction in the third quarter of over 4,300. This brings the Civil Service to a smaller size than at any time during the past 10 years.
  But valuable though this is, my right hon. Friend was right to refer back to a speech which I made at Scarborough in which I said that major items in our expenditure are covered by major decisions in policy. I hope the House will now pay attention to what I want to say about the major items.
  The whole House should never forget that by far the greatest single field of expenditure is the defence programme, with its accompanying civil defence and other expenditure relating to the main programme. No Chancellor—sharing because it is sharing—the undoubted duty of maintaining and developing this defence programme, which is so vital to our own security and that of Europe, the Commonwealth and the whole free world, can be expected to perform miracles.

  775
  Indeed, as we are now in the third year since the original £4,700 programme was started, and as our commitments all over the globe are unprecedented in peace-time, surely the only wise course is to proceed as we have been proceeding, seeking to fit our defence programme both to our economic capabilities, especially in the metal-using industries, and to our international needs and commitments.
  Economies on forward defence programmes have been and will be effected. The same procedure is being applied to all expenditure, civil and defence alike. But in social expenditure, just as I have illustrated the facts about defence expenditure, we cannot shut our eyes to the growing body of pensioners, to the increased number of children in the schools and to other social needs, including housing, upon which this Government have so magnificent a record.
  Therefore, while I do not agree with everything which my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice said, I do agree with him and with the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South that the one way to make sure that we can afford all that we are undertaking is to give first priority to the task of earning our living as a nation. I would put the issue thus; the question we have to face is whether we are to continue to expect to dip freely into the public purse, regardless of the cost to ourselves as individuals and to the prospects of our survival as a great trading nation, or whether we are going to brace ourselves and accept the need for further sacrifices I have no doubt where my duty lies. It is to make effort worth while and expansion of production possible.
  A number of hon. Members have referred to the need for reducing taxation. I agree that the present level of taxation weighs heavily on enterprise, initiative and thrift, but the task of reducing it cannot be an easy one, though it still remains a prime objective of the Government. Hon. Members opposite have grown so used to taxation as the only method of countering inflation—
  Mr. Herbert Morrison: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this broad aspect about public expenditure, can he explain why it was that when, at the Conservative Party Conference, he said that he flatly refused
  776
  to wield a Geddes axe, the Conference then proceeded to pass a resolution which had the opposite effect, and can he explain why he was contradicted on his policy yesterday from his own back benches?
  Mr. Butler: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will now realise the absolute freedom of expression which exists in the party on this side of the House. I know that after the Draconian methods employed by his own leaders to keep their position, he will find that extremely difficult to understand, but I assure him that we can both lead and listen in the Conservative Party.
  Hon. Members opposite have become so used to taxation as the only means of countering inflation that they have not as yet attuned their minds to the positive value of monetary policy in dealing with any inflation in the system. When the times comes for my next Budget, I shall be able to give the House an accurate assessment of the positive value as well as the negative cost of the policy. Positive benefits will, I believe, far outweigh the negative burden. For example, I am convinced that the increasing strength of sterling, the fact that we are no longer in imminent danger of failing to balance our overseas accounts, is largely due to our new and determined policy.
  I shall not bother the House with technical details on the home front, except to say that, while the total net deposits at the clearing banks rose by £13 million between September and October, they were still about £39 million less than a year ago, and the decline in bank advances compared with a year ago amounts to no less than £150 million. This is the clearest pointer to the contribution which the Government's monetary policy has made to restoring internal financial stability. It is, therefore, justifiable to claim that, in spite of the present Exchequer deficit, our monetary situation remains sound. This is also reflected in the success of loan operations launched by the Government and the firmness of the markets for Government securities in recent weeks.
  I now come to the cost of living. As I should have expected, the main attack has been on the reduction of the food subsidies. By reducing the food subsidies we have removed some of the artificiality from the price system which we inherited,

  777
  and events have shown that this move towards realism has been understood and accepted by the people of this country. Many of them have valued the improved benefits in pensions and allowances which coincided with some of the rises.
  What, in fact, has happened to prices, and why have we heard so comparatively little about the subject in this economic debate? Let us look at the price of food. When we take account of the increase in food prices announced on 1st October—which I am doing—we find that food prices will have risen by less than 8.5 per cent. between January and October of this year. Between January and October of last year, under the previous Administration, they rose by no less than 10.8 per cent. Despite our policy, the rise in the price of food has been less than it was under right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  The Retail Price Index for goods other than food has risen by only 1 per cent. between January and September. I regret that, although I made efforts to do so today, I cannot get the final October figure in time for this debate. The prices of several kinds of household goods have, in fact, fallen since the beginning of the year. During the period of Socialist rule, the cost of living rose by about 37 per cent. and food prices rose by more than 50 per cent. It is possible that in the coming months we may get some help from the recent fall in the prices of some raw materials, but it is clear, speaking without exaggeration, that since the present Government took office the upward pressure on prices has already been reduced.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: Is it not misleading for the Chancellor to say that and not to point out that in 1951 world prices were rising and in this year they have been falling?
  Mr. Butler: I made deliberate reference to the prices of raw materials in order to indicate that. If the right hon. Gentleman's intervention can make the matter any clearer, I am sure the country will be greatly obliged, because they have already noticed the improved tendency under our Government.
  I now turn to a subject upon which hon. Gentlemen have expressed their main anxiety—that is, the need to maintain production and exports and to safeguard
  778
  employment. First, I would remind the House of what I said about this in my Budget speech. I did not say that there would be an increase in production equal to last year, but that we must work for a figure of this sort. I foresaw that this would be difficult, and I said this, which it is just as well to remember:
  "Many industries producing consumer goods are already faced with a slack demand at home."
  I went on to say:
  "They now face further very severe cuts in their exports to the sterling area."
  And then:
  "They will have to increase substantially their exports to the non-sterling world—in difficult selling conditions—if they are to keep up their production and employment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 1284.]
  These words surely have proved correct, because that is exactly what we have experienced.
  The facts about the course of production this year have been given to the House in full by the President of the Board of Trade. The check to production in fact began over a year ago, before we took office. The first factor limiting expansion was the shortage of steel and other raw materials at the beginning of 1951. Then, second, about the middle of that year the world recession in textiles and clothing began to affect United Kingdom output through falls in demand both in the export and in the home markets. The fall in clothing and textiles alone was enough to bring the index of industrial production down by 2½ per cent.—more than sufficient to account for the total fall. The Government's policy can, therefore, hardly be held responsible for things which were already happening when we took office, especially as since we have been in office there have been signs of improvement especially in textiles.
  Almost the only new factor affecting production since we took office has been that in the past six months—or about that time—export conditions generally have become more difficult over a widening range of commodities, especially because of import restrictions. The decline in demand for our exports is now a much more important influence than the state of home demand. It is particularly affecting consumer goods. Demand for heavy capital goods and for

  779
  aircraft is still high, and here, I am thankful to say, exports are increasing
  Our experience in the production field during the past year or so has in fact been shared by many other industrial countries. For example, in the first eight months of this year industrial production in the United States was lower than in the same period last year; but in the last month or two we have seen there a marked improvement. There have also been falls in Canada. Belgium, Finland, and Denmark of much the same magnitude as in the United Kingdom, and there has been a small fall in Sweden. France, on the other hand, shows an increase, and so do our growing competitors, Japan and Western Germany.
  At home the position has been and still is different for different industries and different markets. We must, therefore, continue with a selective policy of damping down home demand for capital goods for which overseas demand is high, while not depressing home demand for consumer goods for which overseas demand has declined; and our fiscal, monetary and investment policies will be directed, as they have been to date, to achieving these ends. At the same time we shall do all we can to develop our vital home resources, coal, agriculture, and manufacturing potentials, and to push our exports, particularly to the dollar and non-sterling markets.
  Taking coal first, it is positively refreshing to think that we are repeating the achievements of the inter-war years—so carelessly referred to in the Amendment—by actually increasing our amounts of coal exported. More men, too, have been joining the band of miners on whose toil and productiveness so much of our economic prosperity depends.
  Taking agriculture next, in his speech of Wednesday last, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland said that under the previous Government there was a steady rise in the production of British agriculture. He went on to imply that during the last year all this had been affected adversely by this Government's administration. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South asked for a report, and here are the facts.
  Taking 100 as the index figure of net output in 1938 to 1939, the figure for
  780
  1946 to 1947 was 127. It is perfectly true to say, as the right hon. Gentleman claimed, that the expansion programme launched by the late Government in 1947 went well for a few years. At first production rose steadily. The target for 1952 to 1953 was 150 compared with the 100 figure I gave earlier, but when my right hon. Friends the agricultural Ministers here and in Scotland took office a year ago, they found that not only was the figure no more than 144 but the programme of expansion had slowed down considerably. Indeed, it showed every sign of coming to a stop, and in some respects it was retracing its steps, in particular in the sharp decline in cattle rearing and in the tillage area. In 1951 the number of calves—our future supplies of beef—had fallen by nearly 300,000 in only two years.
  During the last year we have taken steps to reverse this dangerous trend. We have introduced new grants for fertilisers, calf rearing, and ploughing operations, and we have under discussion other ideas for promoting the development of the industry. Farming is a slow process and cannot increase output in a few months, but nevertheless, the latest returns confirm the evidence we have got from other sources that the industry is now setting about the task of expanding output again.
  During the last year the number of calves increased, the dairy herds have been maintained, and there has been a significant increase in the number of sheep and pigs. The tillage acreage declined by over 3 million acres between June, 1948, and June, 1951, but in the year ending June this year there has been an increase of roughly 250,000 acres. The Government and the industry are aiming at an increase of 60 per cent. on the prewar production by 1956. We firmly intend to back the industry in following up this encouragingly good start towards a still greater agricultural contribution to the national economy.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: How, then, does the right hon. Gentleman explain why, if this has taken place, there has been a rapid decrease in the number of regular workers in the industry this year?
  Mr. Butler: One quite clear reason, I should say, speaking as a Member who

  781
  has represented an agricultural constituency for many years, is the great increase in mechanisation.
  I want to say a word or two about home industrial production. In his speech yesterday the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South appeared to argue that only through nationalisation could the output of the steel industry be increased. If we look at the recent Report of the Iron and Steel Productivity Team, which has included five experienced trade unionists, we find—nationalisation or no nationalisation—the following words:
  "The British iron and steel industry since 1945"—
  long before the date of nationalisation—
  "has been engaged on a construction programme to the full extent of the resources available to the plant manufacturers."
  As to the right hon. Gentleman's second assertion, that development in the industry was now being held back, he knows well that further large expansion has been planned which will bring our steel making capacity up to a level fully sufficient to meet any demands which can at present be foreseen, and I am convinced that the Measure we have before the House, and which is referred to in the Amendment, and referred to in the Gracious Speech, will help the output which we so much need from the steel industry.
  In the metal-using industries, engineering, ship building, and electrical goods, production was up by 5½ per cent. in the first half year. The value of output of some more important classes of machinery is up by as much as one quarter over the same period of 1951 and some types even more than that. In the shipyards total completions in the first nine months were rather higher than in the year before, and the biggest yards are fully booked for at least three or four years ahead. These are all matters of fact, whether we take home agriculture, coal, or these industries I have mentioned, where it would be a great mistake to belittle British achievement and activities.
  The hon. Member for Fulham, East also alleged that we are attaching declining importance to factory building. This point was made by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South and many other hon. Members. These are the facts. Owing to the shortage of steel, new building work for manufacturing industry will
  782
  turn out less than in 1951 by about 17 per cent. Now that more steel is available we are deliberately issuing more licences for factories, and the Government now expect that the work done in 1953 will be nearly 10 per cent. higher than in 1951. That, with the general level of industrial investment—which is high—should prove that we mean business in supporting the fine efforts of home manufacturing production.
  We are thus making an all-out effort to increase our production. I have never desired to disguise from the House, or from the country, that we have very great difficulties ahead and that is in selling the necessary amount of this production abroad. But I do maintain that we are now in better shape than we have been for a long time to tackle this severe problem. All interests, whether in the House, the Government, or industry, must now bend their energies to the single task of increasing our overseas earnings, particularly in dollar and other non-sterling markets. I believe that if we were to take panic measures to increase demand at home, we might increase production for a while, but there is a danger that it would not be the kind of production we need, the kind of production to sell abroad so that we may live and prosper, and at prices the world is willing to pay.
  Some of the critics of the Government—I do not think the right hon. Gentleman was included among them—seem to be in danger of forgetting the principal threat to employment in the United Kingdom. The point was made by both my predecessors that if we cannot export enough we shall have to cut imports, including the import of raw materials on which employment and our whole stability depend.
  I shall not go further into the difficult task of encouraging exports because the President of the Board of Trade described the various different methods of opening up markets, putting more metal-using goods to export, increasing investment and giving further credit. I simply wish to say that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade will have my support in any sound and practical scheme for encouraging exports in any way.
  It is clear that we must not only follow a balanced and flexible policy at home designed to push out our goods into the

  783
  export markets. We must also strike out, in company with the Commonwealth, with Europe and the United States of America, and aim at the expansion rather than the restriction of world trade. This will be a main topic of discussion at the forthcoming Commonwealth Conference. I can give the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland the assurance he wants that we have no sinister or secret designs. Why on earth should we have? We are going to work out the future of these questions in company with the representatives of the Governments of the Commonwealth.
  The right hon. Member for Lewisham, South asked what is our view about convertibility? We set out our views on convertibility in the statement made as long ago as 21st January at the end of the Commonwealth Finance Ministers Conference, and I will summarise it shortly. He will see that we all there agreed, first, that the recovery of the sterling area will not be complete until the conditions have been created in which sterling can become and remain convertible; second, that we intend to work to create those conditions, and finally, that the conditions cannot be completely realised without the active co-operation of other countries, notably those which are consistently in surplus with the rest of the world.
  Surely this is the only sensible way of approaching this difficult matter. Convertibility is not an end in itself; it may or may not be a means to an end, but the end is the maintenance of a sound and expanding world economy. It is for this that we strive and we shall not take any steps, I tell the House, which are not to the benefit of our own social democracy and which are not also to the benefit of the Commonwealth as a whole.
  I trust that this wide objective will appeal in a few weeks' time to our friends from the Commonwealth. Out of their common wisdom and experience we can look for ideas and proposals which later can be confidently commended in the consulations we hope to have later with our friends in Europe and with the new United States Administration.
  So I maintain that our policy at home of balanced flexibility and our policy of expansion abroad are not only already justified by results, but it is a policy in
  784
  which the House, the whole country and, indeed, the whole free world can have confidence. I therefore invite the House to reject this Amendment and support Her Majesty's Government in their policy.
  4.17 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Perhaps, as the Chancellor's predecessor, I may be allowed to add my personal sympathy to that accorded by my right hon. Friend on behalf of all of us in the great loss that he has sustained. May I say that, of course, we fully understand why he could not be with us yesterday or in the earlier days of this debate?
  This debate has certainly been notable for a more than usually large number of platitudinous and vague statements by Her Majesty's Ministers. I thought that the Chancellor was not doing too badly until he came right to the end and introduced this wonderful phrase of a "policy of balanced flexibility." I suppose that means something like tightrope walking on a rope which is not very tight. I am bound to say that, if that is how he feels, I do not envy him his position.
  Of course, we had the usual collection of exhortations. We were told that there would have to be a lot of hard work and sacrifice, that we must all work as a team, and we were assured that the Government could not do everything on their own but the ultimate results depended on what happened in the factory and workshop. We were also warned that there was no easy road ahead and that there must be no relaxation or complacency.
  I do not, of course, criticise the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friends for talking in this way. No doubt they mean it all, but what puzzles me is to find in that morass of phraseology any real hard and clear lines of policy. It may be, as they say, that it is through all these virtues that we have got where we are and with these virtues we are to get somewhere else, but exactly where it is we are to get is not very clear. The President of the Board of Trade said:
  "the general lines of our economic policy are extension and adaptation of the policy which we have pursued hitherto."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November. 1952; Vol. 507, c. 168–9.]
  So we are driven back to trying to discover what policy "we have pursued

  785
  hitherto." If we can find that, we shall know what is going to happen in the future. So with this beacon light to guide us, let us examine some of the problems which we have had to face in these last few months.
  It is well understood that there are two major economic problems which confront us. One is the dollar-sterling problem, and the other the problem of the balance of payments of the United Kingdom. I propose to start with the latter and, indeed, to spend most of my time upon it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made some reference to this in his speech and to the improvements that have taken place. Indeed, there has been an improvement, and we are all very glad that is so. It seems likely, from what he has said, that in the year 1952 we shall achieve an overall balance in the United Kingdom. But what is the reason for this? I think that we should examine that, and, of course, examine its relationship to Her Majesty's Government's policy.
  It seems quite clear that exports have not contributed in any substantial way to this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipated in his Budget statement that there would be an increase of, I think, £50 million in real terms, allowing for any price differences, in the volume of exports So far as I have ascertained, there has been since the Budget a fall in exports, and for the calendar year so far there has been little change. I do not know how far invisible exports have contributed to the improvement. They certainly did not do so in the first half of the year, although I understand that there may have been some improvement more recently.
  I am not proposing to bring into this picture American aid, because I am sure that the Chancellor would agree with me that it would be a great mistake to try to balance our accounts on that basis.
  What we are left with are two things only which account for the change in the balance of payments position. The first of these is, of course, the improvement in terms of trade. Import prices have fallen and export prices have slightly risen. I reckon that, for the year as a whole, we shall probably benefit to the extent of some £200 million from this change in the terms of trade, whereas last year we
  786
  lost something in the neighbourhood of £400 million from the adverse terms of trade.
  I must ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government whether they claim that this change in the terms of trade has anything to do with their policy whatever. I do not know whether the Chancellor believes that his monetary policy has in some way or other affected the terms of trade. If that were to be so, it is a very important point, and he must be considering whether he cannot go on turning the terms of trade more and more in our favour, but I do not think he would claim that. In the way in which he put it this afternoon, he implied, I think, that this improvement—a very substantial one—was something which was a bit of good luck for the Government but had nothing to do with their policy.
  The second reason for the improvement is the reduction in the volume of imports. Let me say, in the first place, that we have always supported the import cuts that the Government have had to make. As I pointed out in, I think, the first debate after the Election, those cuts were in fact planned during the period when we were still in office, and it would have been very wrong for us to attempt to evade responsibilities for them. We do not. We pressed the Government from time to time to go rather further in making these cuts than they were doing to start with.
  If one examines what has actually been reduced in the way of imports, the striking thing, in the first nine months of this year anyway, is the big change in raw material imports. They have fallen some 16 per cent. in value, whereas food imports have fallen about 3 per cent. and manufactured goods about 1 per cent. If we look at the raw material imports and the changes which have been taking place, we can see at once what the large items are. Out of a total reduction in imports for these nine months of £229 million, no less than £200 million is accounted for by the fall in the imports of raw cotton and raw wool. These are very striking and remarkable facts.
  If one looks at the quantity figures as shown in the Board of Trade Journal, where there is a comparison for the first nine months with the average of 1951, the quantity reductions are 30 per cent. for soft wood, 40 per cent. for cotton, 42 per cent. for cotton piece goods and 17

  787
  per cent. for wood pulp. One can see at once how enormously important these changes are.
  How do we explain them? How is it possible to have achieved this reduction in raw material imports? Is it a question of Government policy? Some of these raw material imports coming from dollar areas have been reduced in the dollar imports programme, but I do not think that explains the position properly. The Government have said, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer repeated it this afternoon, that there has not been any running down of stocks. I accept his assurance on that point.
  But the point is this: in 1951 we were increasing stocks in this country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Too late."] If we increase stocks in one year and we give up increasing them in the next year, of course it is very easy even with the same rate of consumption, to cut down our imports. In 1951—and I quote from the National Income Blue Book, the new one which has recently come out—the value of physical increase in stocks and work in progress in 1951 rose by no less than £387 million. If one-fifth of our imports were being put to stock in that way, directly or indirectly, we could supply the same consumption in the following year, hold our stocks level and cut our imports by one-fifth.
  There is another and even more important explanation. It is, of course, the fall in production. We have not needed so much in the way of raw material imports. We do not need the cotton and wool when there is a reduction in wool cloth and cotton cloth production in Lancashire and Yorkshire. Previously, every year we have had to reckon on a rise in the volume of imports in order to sustain a higher and higher level of production, but of course this year, with production already some 3½ per cent. below last year, in place of 2½ per cent. above it, we have a saving of 6 per cent. there. Perhaps £150 million could be cut off imports in that way. In fact I may say that the net saving on textiles, after allowing for the fall in exports which has also taken place, according to the Board of Trade figures, is some £120 million.
  This is a serious issue. We can, I do not doubt, balance our overseas accounts by reducing our production, by increasing
  788
  unemployment, by reducing our consumption and by going back, in short, to exactly the position we were in before the war. That can be done again. No one ever doubted that that was a way out of our balance of payments difficulty, but it is a way which we on this side of the House are not prepared to travel.
  If, on the other hand, the Government also say that they reject this policy—and I think that I heard the Chancellor say, "Nor is anyone else"—he has to address himself to the question of what is going to happen to the volume of imports when production rises again, and what is the position of the balance of payments going to be.
  The Minister of Labour, in his speech yesterday, explained to us at some length that production had not gone down everywhere—there were differences. In some industries it had gone down and in others it had gone up. That is usual. The production index is an average, but the fact remains that the average is going down; in other words, the reductions outweigh the increases. He also implied that the unemployment position was not so bad. I do not know what his standards are—I shall come in a moment to something he said about our standards—but today we have, and I do not think the facts can be denied, 140,000 more out of work, three times as many on short time and eight times as many hours lost through short time, 2½ per cent. fewer people working overtime, and 40 per cent. fewer unfilled vacancies compared with a year ago.
  These are all the facts of the unemployment situation. None of us has suggested that we have yet got back to the pre-war situation, but I suggest to the Chancellor that they are serious figures, and, although I agree that in the last month there has been some improvement due to the revival of textile demands, they seem to us to give serious cause for anxiety.
  I should like to ask the Minister of Labour, who is not in his place at the moment but will no doubt read this, whether, when he said so confidently that he was sure the figure would not be over 500,000 at the end of December—the figures are taken in the middle of the month—he would agree that they are also not likely to be over 500,000 in the peak seasonal month, which is not December, but January, when the figures go up.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Harold Watkinson): Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will acquit my right hon. and learned Friend of any discourtesy in unavoidably being absent, as he is meeting the Dock Labour Board at this moment. I might also point out that it is the view of my right hon. and learned Friend that, if all goes well, we should not increase that figure. Perhaps when he is making remarks about vacancies the right hon. Gentleman will confirm that there are still more than 250,000 unfilled vacancies in British industry.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Of course, but we are comparing the present situation with the situation a year ago. No hon. Member could ever accuse the Minister of Labour of being discourteous to anybody, and I did not suggest that.
  There is another matter to which I must refer, because it was mentioned by a number of hon. Members and also by the Minister of Labour and that is the so-called standard of unemployment which we are alleged to have introduced. I must say, in the absence of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, that I thought that on this occasion he fell rather short of his usual standards because he left out of his quotations from what I had said some extremely important and relevant words which I propose to read to the House.
  It is an answer which I gave on 22nd March, 1951, about the Government's decision about a full employment standard being conveyed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. A full employment standard was called for in a resolution of the Economic and Social Council, which we warmly supported, and it indicated the standard at which very energetic action should be taken by the Government. The part I wish to quote is:
  "It must be stressed that the choice of this standard does not mean that the Government would allow unemployment to reach 3 per cent. before taking vigorous counter action. It will be a continuing objective of the Government's policy to counter any unfavourable trend in employment and to take special measures to deal with those areas in which unemployment has persisted at a comparatively high leve."—[OFFICINT REPORT, 22nd March, 1951; Vol. 485, c. 320.]
  The House will agree that that sentence throws a very different light on the 3 per cent. standard which was thrown at us
  790
  by more than one hon. Member opposite. If any hon. Members wish to quote that standard in future, I hope they will also quote the words I have used.
  Mr. Watkinson: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will quote the rest of the statement in which he said that, if export prospects worsened, the 3 per cent. standard might well have to be exceeded.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Of course. That is exactly what we are all so anxious about at the moment. The point which the Minister of Labour was trying to make was that there was no call for the Government to take action because, he implied, we should not have taken action. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am sorry, but that is exactly the impression that he created on this side of the House.
  Another point which I must make here is the contrast between the fall in production in comparison with the steady expansion that we had before, which is serious, and the comparatively small increase in unemployment. It is obvious that production has fallen faster than employment, and that suggests that a good deal of under-employment is taking place at the present time and that the unemployment figures, though they are serious enough in comparison with last year, are not shown to be as serious as they are in reality.
  What is the Government's attitude to the production situation? I find it rather difficult to make out. Do they believe that the fall in production is something which we should tolerate and accept for the moment? Is it something about which they feel they can do nothing? Is it part of a healthy purge or something else which they believe will enable us to re-deploy industry? Do the Government really feel that it is an unfortunate development, and if so, precisely what do they intend to do about it?
  We have had very little indication from any Minister about what is to be done. It is all very well for the Chancellor to come along and say, "You see, I said at the time of the Budget that it was all very difficult and that we might have to face this and that." The fact remains that one of the essential figures in the Budget estimate was an increase in production of £250 million in the year, about 2½ per cent. If we are to have a reduction of 3½ or 4 per cent., that will

  791
  throw the Chancellor's calculation completely out. Is he really satisfied, for example, in that, accompanying the fall in production, there has also been a reduction in consumption of 4 per cent. in the first half of the year? He told us at the time of the Budget that we could afford to consume just as much as before. That was, again, part of his plan. We are now having to pay the penalty; we are having to consume less. Does that give him any cause for concern, and, if so, what does he intend to do about it?
  The Chancellor referred, a little surprisingly I thought, to the coal situation. It is true that at the moment stocks of coal are very high, and it is also true that we have been able to increase exports again, but he knows as well as I do what the reason for that is. It is because for, the first time since the war, the consumption of coal has fallen below the previous year's level, consumption this year being 3,500,000 tons below last year's figure.
  If he had come to us and said, "Look how well coal is doing; production is rising fast," that would have been a different matter, but I believe I am right in saying that this year production will increase by about 1,500,000 to 2 million tons more than last year's figure whereas each year since the war, except once, the increase has been 5, 6, 7 and, in one case, 12 million tons.
  It may be adequate with warm weather and low industrial consumption, but I should like to know how the Chancellor proposes to deal with the situation in coal as soon as production begins to rise again. He has the same problem as in the case of imports, and I do not believe there is any cause whatever for complacency there. If these two factors turn out differently from what they are today, if we run into cold weather and if, as we all hope, production is expanded again, we shall very soon run into difficulties through shortages of coal.
  The Chancellor emphasised in his speech today that the major influence upon the decline in production now was the decline in exports. The President of the Board of Trade spoke of the buyer's market having returned. That may indeed be so, but, again, we want to know whether the Government are just satisfied to accept that situation. They speak
  792
  as if it were a sort of act of God and nothing to do with them at all, something they cannot control in any way. Of course, they cannot control it alone, but they can use some influence in international negotiations to try to restore the level of world demand. We have had nothing from the Government which suggests that they have any serious intentions at all in that regard. I should like to give one illustration of this. The President of the Board of Trade, in referring to the fall in exports, said:
  "This decline"—
  I hope the House will note these particular words—
  "is essentially connected and associated with the fact that the sterling area is now living within its means, whereas previously it was not."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November. 1952; Vol. 507, c. 173.]
  I found it awfully hard to follow that sentence. What did the right hon. Gentleman mean? The sterling area is able to live within its means by cutting down sales within the sterling area? When Australia buys fewer motor cars from us, does that mean that the sterling area as a whole is living more within its means? How can that be so? I can think of only one circumstance where that would be so—let me be perfectly fair—it would be so if those motor cars were automatically diverted to the dollar markets; but they have not been. All the Minister of Supply is proposing is to divert them to the home market, and how that enables the sterling area to live more within its means I fail to see.
  One is bound to question the whole policy on motor cars which is being adopted. The industry have had a very fine record since the war and a very large export trade has been built up. It has been built up because—and we must be frank about this—despite what the industry said, the Labour Government of the time insisted that they must cut down their deliveries to the home market. This Government, to begin with, appeared to follow that policy, and fixed a quota of 60,000 cars for the home market. Then they began to get cold feet and, disguising it as much as possible, they replaced that figure by one of 80 per cent. for exports, which meant 90,000 cars for the home market. In fact, 84,000 cars were sold in the home market before the end of August, and now I am told that only 50 or 60 per cent. of the motor car output

  793
  will be sold abroad and that probably this year we shall have 150,000 sold at home. How that can help the balance of payments, I fail to see.
  I found some contradiction in the Chancellor's statement at one point. He was anxious, he said, to encourage home consumption as far as possible while at the same time cutting down on home investments. I do not know where motor cars stand in this respect. They have been rather a borderline case, but is the right hon. Gentleman really satisfied that it is wise to allow this large expansion of home demand at a time when we are told there are such difficulties?
  The right hon. Gentleman may say quite fairly. "What can I do about it, how can I encourage exports?" Let me tell him one or two things he can avoid doing. He and other Ministers have told us that we have to be careful to keep our export prices down in a competitive world, and now that there is a buyers' market that is more and more important. How have the Government helped? One of the important items, of course, in export prices is wages. Wages in this country, whether we like it or not, largely depend on the cost of living and on prices. Yet the Government go out of their way through their food subsidy policy to put up prices, drive up wages and make the position in our export trade more and more difficult.
  It is all very well for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to come along and say that prices have not gone up as much because the cost of living has not advanced as much in the last few months as it did before that. If the whole of the world situation is ignored, that is perfectly true, but the fact remains—and this is the point we wish to make—that under a Labour Government, given a world situation, prices went up far less here than in any other country, and under a Tory Government, again given a world situation, they are going up far more than in other countries.
  I should like now to say a few words about the Commonwealth Conference. We, of course, welcome it. We pressed for it. I must remind the Chancellor that we pressed for it because we felt that the results of the previous Conference, so far as intra-Commonwealth trade was concerned, were profoundly unsatisfactory, and I think that Members on all
  794
  sides of the House were very worried when Australia first, and then South Africa, within a matter of a fortnight or three weeks of the Conference, announced savage cuts of exports from Great Britain.
  What we should like to feel is that the Chancellor and the Government enter into this Conference determined to try to repair the damage done by the previous Conference—in short, to try to build up trade within the Commonwealth. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned it and implied that the Government were going to do just that, but after what happened before we are bound to be rather sceptical about any results which will come out of it.
  I should like to say a few words about the dollar situation, about which the right hon. Gentleman has not told us very much. He has not told us how we stand. The gold and dollar position at the moment is relatively stable and we are very glad it is. When I spoke in July, I said I thought it would be, but we all know how very important to the situation is the price of sterling area materials, and I hope that in due course, and contrary to the kind of statements that Ministers make from time to time—I have in mind the Secretary for Overseas Trade—the Government will make a serious effort to reach an international agreement which gives some degree of stability to these raw materials.
  I should also like to ask the Chancellor whether he is satisfied that the cuts on dollar imports imposed on other members of the sterling area are not also being made at the expense of stocks because if, in fact, they are running down stocks at the moment, then the right hon. Gentleman is bound to run into trouble later on when imports from the dollar area increase.
  I should like to add this about the Commonwealth Conference. The Chancellor has given us some assurance on convertibility, but the fact remains, and it is no use our disguising it from ourselves, that there are broadly two possible lines of action here. One of them is to make the sterling area a more closely co-ordinated, more unified institution, in which we try with our partners to work out common policies—policies of internal finance, of planning our imports from the outside world, and of increasing our trade with each other so as to try

  795
  to maintain the highest possible level of employment and production. We should certainly try to bring the rest of Europe into such a scheme.
  That is one possible development. It will require undoubtedly a change in the present machinery—if, indeed, one can give the present situation any such name—and it will mean a permanent body being set up here in London representing the various Governments in order to reach these decisions quickly, making plans for submission to Ministers, and making changes as and when they are necessary in the light of changing world conditions. I have no hesitation in saying that I regret that we in the Labour Government did not do that. It would have been a great help in 1951 if such a body had been in existence.
  If that is one possible line of development—and there is not very much sign that the Government seem to be pursuing it with any energy—the Chancellor will, I am sure, agree with me when I say that there is no doubt that there have been very substantial rumours that the Government were intending to adopt a policy of convertibility. These were mentioned in the Press, particularly last July, and the first thing I want to say about them is that convertibility, if it means anything at all, must mean the end of discrimination against dollar imports. At any rate, that is what the Americans understand by it.
  It means, in effect, that you get dollars for pounds and use those dollars as you like without import restrictions other than tariffs. Are the Government seriously contemplating a move of that kind? If so, I can only say, first of all, that it means the end of the sterling area as we have it today. It means the return to the sterling bloc as it existed before the war.
  I have heard an interesting rumour on this subject—let me say at once that it did not reach me from the Civil Service or any Government supporter, but from another outside source—that the Cabinet very nearly reached a decision that there should be a return to convertibility, but that—and I must confess I was surprised at this part of it—the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, intervened very effectively, having, as we all know, the ear of the Prime Minister, and managed to get this
  796
  policy stopped. In the light of the things I have said in the past about the noble Lord, I feel now like withdrawing all of them. He has really done us a very good service if his relationship to the Prime Minister has enabled him to stop such a disastrous turn in our policy.
  I would ask what has happened to the committee over which the Minister of State presides. This is not the first time I have asked the question. I have a strong suspicion that he is being the nigger in the woodpile, and that the real battle was between him and Lord Cherwell, and he was defeated. There has been a committee and we believe that it has met occasionally. What are its conclusions? Are we not to be told at all?
  The Chancellor referred to the January statement. I was rather interested in that, because the last time we discussed the matter I again expressed my apprehensions about the return to convertibility and indicated that I thought his statement was a dangerous one. The Chancellor went out of his way to indicate that he himself was by no means solely responsible for it. When a Minister of the Crown says that, we draw our own conclusion. We draw, in fact, the conclusion that he was opposed to it and that he had to give way to other members of the Conference.
  I was somewhat reassured by his statements on it then, but his attitude today is worrying, and it fits in with other things that have been said. I quote again from the President of the Board of Trade:
  "A healthy economy is one in which internal fiscal and monetary policy is so arranged that physical control can be scaled down to the minimum and reliance placed upon the more orthodox and preferable means of moderate tariffs."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 5th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 173.]
  The right hon. Gentleman says "Hear, hear"; in other words, he would like to get rid of controls over dollar imports. This is a fair indication that convertibility is in the mind of the Government.
  When the Chancellor says, as he did this afternoon, that monetary policy is the really important matter, one is bound to draw one's own conclusions. My conclusion is that he wants to do away with physical controls—I know a lot of hon. Members believe in that, too—and to rely upon monetary policy. He has never explained exactly how that has an effect

  797
  on the balance of payments or upon improving the balance of trade, but if he does that, and goes back to convertibility, the inevitable result will be a much higher level of unemployment than with the kind of policy we have pursued, accompanied by physical controls. I admit that this is very much like a detective story, but that is not my fault. I have to pick up what clues I can here and there in trying to discover what the Government's policy is.
  I come to the counterpart of the convertibility idea, and that is the very powerful attack which is now being levelled in the Tory Party on public expenditure. The Chancellor and the House are aware of my general attitude upon this matter, which is the same as that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). It is the duty of every Chancellor, of course, to avoid wasteful expenditure, to scrutinise the Estimates with the utmost care and to make such administrative economies as he can. I was at great pains to explain what I had done, as the Chancellor was to explain what he had done this year. When at Scarborough this year he said:
  "If you are going to have big economies you can only have them by big changes in policy,"
  I was ready to pat him on the back. At last he had really understood exactly what I said when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is a very sobering thing being in office. I do not regret that he has come to agree with me at last at all. But what was the occasion on which he said those words? It was a debate on this Motion, introduced by an hon. Member to the Conservative Party Conference:
  "That public expenditure has increased, is increasing, and ought to be drastically diminished."
  It was moved by the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Arbuthnot) and it was supported by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law). His speech is well worth reading. He said that the rise in expenditure was not what they had expected a year ago or what they had led others to expect. We can agree with him on that. He said that there was bewilderment among Conservative supporters. Finally, he said that public expenditure was the clue to everything:
  798
  economic recovery, social security and national survival. It was in reply to that forthright speech that the Chancellor declared himself as I have indicated. Despite his speech, the resolution was carried by what the Conservative little booklet describes as "a very large majority" against him.
  The right hon. Member for Haltemprice had another go yesterday, and I am sorry that the Chancellor was not here to hear him, because he would have been interested. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said about the Chancellor's own speech at Scarborough:
  "My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer may have been right when he said at the Scarborough Conference that in his opinion"—
  I do not think the Chancellor even qualified it to that extent—
  "big economies were impossible. But if he is right, then I tell him that economic recovery is impossible."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 637.]
  The right hon. Member was not the only one on those back benches who spoke in those terms. We had speech after speech. We know that there is a substantial majority there for big reductions in Government expenditure. They have even a target of 2s. off the Income Tax, which means about £400 million, including some reductions in the lower rates of tax. This is to be done during a period of re-armament. We would not accuse the right hon. Member for Haltemprice of wishing to undermine the defence programme. Indeed, he was at pains to explain that he did not want to undermine it.
  If these people get their way, we are bound to get another substantial cut in food subsidies and a really big cut in the social services. It is not so much a question of a Geddes axe or a Geddes Committee. I dare say some hon. Gentlemen opposite would like that, because they do not trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but there are other ways in which pressure can be brought to bear. We have already seen in this Parliament how very powerful the Tory back benchers can be. We have not forgotten what they have managed to achieve in the de-nationalisation Bills. I see some of them nodding with pride. We have not forgotten sponsored television. It is our considered view that they will win this further battle, and that in the next

  799
  Budget they will have just the kind of reactionary policy they are demanding.
  I would ask hon. Gentlemen who are interested in this subject and who are always searching around for economies, to consider one other sphere of public expenditure, where they will find that we will support them. That is the astonishing increase in Consolidated Fund expenditure, which is already £39 million in the first five months of the fiscal year above what it was in the previous year. That looks like working out as close as anything to the £100 million increase, as the result of the rise in the Bank rate which we indicated once before.
  In our period of office we set before ourselves two major aims. We wanted to secure maximum production in this country based on full employment, and a fairer distribution of the national income so that those who were poorer got more and those who were richer got a bit less. In both of these things we achieved great progress, and we are not ashamed of it. We were able to make this progress because we deliberately used powers of economic planning to maintain a high level of demand by monetary policy at home and trade agreements abroad. We used physical controls to prevent inflation and to restrict imports. We do not claim to have solved all the problems of the post-war world—after all, we were faced with some very difficult ones, as we all know; the change in the terms of trade and the failure of our invisible exports to rise cost this country something like £1,500 million to £2,000 million a year. But we made great progress on those lines.
  There is now every sign that Her Majesty's Government will reverse these policies, to the great satisfaction of hon. Members opposite. They wish to be rid of these controls. They have no faith in planning. This means, I repeat, that they must expect a higher level of unemployment, perhaps a much higher level of unemployment.
  At the same time the pressure for reducing taxation on the wealthy is growing every day. On these benches we see it often enough. Those who are putting forward this policy know perfectly well that such reduced taxation can only be achieved by savage cuts in expenditure which means, in fact, cuts in the social
  800
  services or the food subsidies, or both. We have had one dose of this already and I think we shall have another one.
  This, in essence, is what we mean by a return to pre-war policies, and we believe that it will just as surely lead us back to a pre-war situation. We are utterly opposed to this approach to our economic problems. We believe it is misguided and unjust, and we shall go into the Lobby against it tonight with great pleasure.
  5.1 p.m.
  Mr. Angus Maude: I was extremely interested to discover that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, having, during a considerable part of his speech, gone from one part of the economy and from one part of policy to another without coming very near to the terms of the Amendment, which no doubt, he was anxious to forget, at last, in the concluding paragraphs of his speech, found some terms upon which he could come to grips with the official Amendment of his party.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not carried out any of the policies to which the Amendment refers, but that it was perfectly clear that he would soon have to surrender to pressure from his own back benchers and so make the terms of the Amendment a reality.
  I shall have a certain amount to say about that question and about the famous cleavage before I have finished, but there are one or two other observations of the right hon. Gentleman with which I shall deal first. He said it was not at all clear what was the policy of the Government or where the Government were going. He said that this debate had been remarkable for a collection of platitudinous statements from Her Majesty's Ministers. He might have considered rereading some of the observations which his own colleagues have been making during this debate.
  For instance, his right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) leaped even more ineffectually from a naïve acquaintance with one part of the economy to another than I have heard him do before, culminating last night in the right hon. Gentleman the

  801
  Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) who, we can only hope, from mere irresponsible ignorance rather than from sheer mischief, made a speech apparently deliberately intended to exacerbate the very dangers about which he was trying to warn the House.
  What else did the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South say? He said that my right hon. Friend has assured him that the Government had not been improving our balance of payments by running down stocks of raw materials. He said that was not very much because his Government had considerably increased stocks of raw materials. Yes, and a very silly thing that turned out to have been as events have proved. What we saw was this country building up stocks of raw materials at steadily rising prices and greatly increasing the adverse balance of payments, and so being to a considerable extent responsible for the enormous adverse balance with which we found ourselves confronted when we came into office.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to ask what will happen to the balance of payments when production here begins to rise again and the demand for imported raw materials begins to increase again? Surely the right hon. Gentleman has overlooked two important factors. One, perhaps the least important, is that the terms of trade are moving in our favour and there is reason to hope that they will continue to do so.
  Secondly, his very question implies that he expects we shall have some increase in the exports of our manufactured goods, otherwise the demand for imported raw materials would not be likely to increase sufficiently to make this question of stocks important. Both those taken together make it reasonable to suppose that there will be no adverse effects from this at all.
  Skipping from the balance of payments to employment, the right hon. Gentleman went on to quote what my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour had said about his own statement regarding the 3 per cent. full employment standard. He said that was a quite unjustified statement because he himself had made it quite clear that the Government would have to take steps long before we got to a 3 per cent. unemployment rate to see
  802
  that the movement was stemmed so that in any area where this was developing it could be mitigated.
  The right hon. Gentleman forgot to say that this was precisely what Her Majesty's Government have done. When we were faced with a considerable increase in unemployment in the textile areas, not only did the Government accelerate defence orders, not only did they make fairly substantial concessions in Purchase Tax, but they have already scheduled a Development Area. All these movements were precisely the kind of which the right hon. Gentleman must have been thinking when he made his original statement.
  Then he flitted on to materials and asked, Did we think that the Government ought to allow this big expansion in the home demand for motor cars? I did not notice his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South (Miss Burton), who was sitting behind him, looking over-enthusiastic when he was putting that line across. I have sometimes thought in the last few months that a sellers' market, coupled with six years of Socialist Government, has given us some peculiar ideas of economics.
  I noticed not so many weeks ago after the celebrated statement of Mr. Leonard Lord, a headline in the "Daily Mirror." Right across the front page it said, "More cars, grim warning." When we get into a state of mind which makes it possible for it to be a grim warning that more cars are to appear on the home market, we ought to stand back a little, check our ideas, and see just what sort of a madhouse we are moving into, both in industry and in economics.
  One of his next observations which struck me as being interesting was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had never explained to the satisfaction of the right hon. Gentleman how his monetary policy affected the balance of payments. We must do the right hon. Gentleman the justice of believing that he was merely seeking to console his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who said rather plaintively much the same thing at about the time of the Budget. We know that the right hon. Gentleman is a very good economist—far better than I could ever hope to be—and he knows much more about these things, so he must know what effect the monetary policy is

  803
  likely to have upon the balance of payments. We cannot take that sort of observation very seriously.
  It must, surely, be obvious to anybody that if steps are taken to make capital investment at home temporarily less easy and less attractive, it must tend to release more capital goods for export overseas. It must, surely, be obvious that if, by a monetary policy, we tend to reduce expenditure at home, we must to some extent be cutting down on the demand for imports. Nobody wants to exaggerate the extent to which that is an important factor in solving the balance of payments, but at least it is nonsense to say that one does not understand what possible effect a monetary policy could have upon the balance of payments.
  The right hon. Gentleman was, perhaps, a little less than his usual clear self when he went on to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was making nonsense of his own observations by having deliberately increased the cost of living through his cuts in the food subsidies at a time when industrial costs, and especially wages, ought to be kept down in the interests of increasing exports.
  The first of two observations which strike me is that, as the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, the deliberate increase in certain prices of rationed foods, which took place as a result of the cutting of the food subsidies, was part of a policy which took account of the compensations, both in the social services and in Income Tax, deliberately aimed at those parts of the working community where that sort of incentive could have the most immediate effect and which taken together, as they must be, were an essential part of the policy which my right hon. Friend has with clear and obvious success carried out since he came into office.
  It is not, incidentally, unnoticeable that ever since last March the right hon. Gentleman and his friends have gone out of their way deliberately to exaggerate the extent of the rise in the cost of living due to the cuts in the food subsidies in order to create an opinion in the country which inevitably, they must have known, would make itself felt in demands for wages which bore no relation to the increase in living costs. This has been the
  804
  policy of almost every hon. and right hon. Member opposite since March. Of course, it has reached some of its most obvious height of folly in the right hon. Member for Blyth. This, coupled with his statements about the probability of there being one million unemployed by the end of this year, reached heights of irresponsibility which, in my political experience, not even the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) has exceeded.
  We know that the Government deliberately budgeted for an increase in the prices of rationed foods of 1s. 6d. a week. We know, despite the gloomy prognostications of hon. Members opposite, that that is the effect which the increases proved to have. But some of the remarks made in speeches, both in the House and in the country, by hon. Gentlemen opposite have encouraged those people whose ideas of economics are even hazier than those of some hon. Members opposite to believe that this was a justification for demands for wage increases which far exceed anything of that order of magnitude.
  One of the things which has interested me most in the last few months is the growing bewilderment of hon. Members opposite at the extraordinary absence of the surge of popular disquiet and discontent which all their training had led them to believe must come from the accession to power of a Conservative Government and from the application of a Conservative Chancellor's policy. Hon. Members opposite have chased this great surge of popular discontent further and further into the distance, becoming more mystified at its failure to materialise until, now, the contradictions in their speeches are becoming quite remarkable.
  Listening to the debate yesterday, I could not help noticing that there were one of two almost pathetically bewildered observations from hon. Gentlemen opposite. One of them, the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Ewart), said—it sounded most impressive when he said it—that only the statesmanship of the leaders of the great trade unions.
  "is responsible for keeping in check a rise and surge of discontent."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 663.]
  It is news to me that the leaders of the great trade unions were the people chiefly responsible for winning the Wycombe by-election and reducing the Labour majority

  805
  at Cleveland, but if one analyses that sort of statement that is exactly what it amounts to.
  All through this debate, the thing which has impressed me most clearly was that all that hon. Members opposite see is an extremely limited sector of the economy, one particular set of grievances which each speech is designed to magnify, not merely to its full extent, but well beyond it. A typical speech was from the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown), to whose speeches on social service matters I have always listened with great interest and respect because of his knowledge and sincerity.
  The hon. Member started with a very fine and high-minded statement that he did not understand all about economics and high finance and was not going to deal with that sort of thing. For one who knows nothing about economics or high finance, he showed a masterly skill in selecting those figures which suited the case that he wanted to make and ignoring all others. The case that he was concerned to make was that only a small 2s. 6d. rise in pensions had been made by the Government to offset the increased cost of living. He did not, of course, mention that, thanks to my right hon. Friends the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of National Insurance having reversed the policy of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, in having a dual rate for pensions, which we on this side all thought was an extraordinarily bad thing to have introduced, quite a lot of retirement pensioners were getting considerably more than an extra 2s. 6d. a week.
  The hon. Member for Ince carefully overlooked the increases in war pensions, National Assistance and sickness benefit.
  Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: Family allowances.
  Mr. Maude: My hon. Friend says "Family allowances," but, of course, they do not as a rule affect old age pensioners.
  The hon. Member for Ince challenged the fact that the rise in the cost of living of food prices had been only 1s. 6d. for each ration book. He can challenge it if he likes, but the figures are there and that is what they show. He said three times that this bore very hardly on the sick, the unemployed and the old age pensioner.
  806
  If the hon. Member cares to go back and look at the records of his own Government to compare the rise in the cost of living with the increases in pensions, unemployment and sickness benefits and National Assistance which accompanied them, he might have the grace to realise that the present Government do not have to take a back seat and apologise to any hon. Member opposite for the record they have shown in this field.
  Then the hon. Member went on to say that the index of the cost of living fell temporarily in August and September, and that it was due entirely to a few seasonal reductions, and the cost of fruit and vegetables. Well, it may be that it is temporary, because, after all, there were some more food subsidy reductions and, therefore, increases in rationed food which came into effect in October. It would not surprise me if the cost-of-living index rises by a small amount again, but at least let us see what has happened to it this year compared with what happened to it last year.
  Which, after all, is the better, that there should be an increase which the Government of the party opposite were powerless to prevent, unaccompanied by any compensating increases, or that there should be a deliberate increase accompanied by increases in social service benefits and decreases in taxation as part of a monetary policy which has had obvious advantages in helping to solve the balance of payments crisis?
  I shall not detain the House much longer. In any case, I could not, because I have a very bad cold and my voice will run out before very many more minutes pass, but I did tell the right hon. Gentleman that before I sat down that I would say a few words about his accusations of a cleavage on this side of the House and of overwhelming pressure against my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  It has, of course, always been one of the more noticeable differences between the party opposite and ourselves that we, as a general rule, manage to agree about our policy before we get on to the Floor of the House whereas the party opposite usually fights out its differences in the House. If we are to talk about big cuts in Government expenditure, let us be perfectly clear how far we on this side all

  807
  agree together and how far we disagree with hon. Members opposite.
  I believe that my hon. Friends who have been most active in this matter perform a service of immense usefulness in continuing to chase the Treasury and Government Departments to ensure that every conceivable administrative saving is made. I think that Departments ought continually to be chased in that respect. There is always a danger that we come to think that the things which are nice today, and some of the things which, in a period of post-war inflation and of relief from war-time conditions we thought we could afford, should continue. I think they should be questioned afresh and that we should see whether, in fact, we can afford to do them.
  There is a considerable variety of opinion and a considerable range for difference of opinion as to how much can be cut out of the estimates without making big policy changes, and, indeed, about what policy changes ought to be made. I have always thought, and my hon. Friends will know that I have said so to them on certain occasions, that they make one mistake of which they ought to take more account.
  Even when a considerable chunk is chopped off the estimates for administrative expenditure, it must still be realised that owing to a number of factors—of which the fact that we are a rapidly ageing population is the most important—there is a natural tendency for all the social service Departments' estimates to rise of their own accord all the time, and that we may take a considerable chunk off administrative expenditure and yet still find that we are where we were before without making any net saving. I also believe that it is possible considerably to exaggerate the savings that can be made without making big changes of policy.
  I do not go all the way with some of my hon. Friends in this, but of one thing I am perfectly certain. I have the most immense confidence in the ability of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to do exactly what he said he would do at our party conference in Scarborough, which is to make every conceivable saving that he can in public expenditure without making changes in policy which he
  808
  believed would cause unnecessary suffering and hardship. That is what he said, and every one of us who knows him knows perfectly well that he meant it, and that, however much right hon. Gentlemen opposite may try to sow dissension in these ranks by believing that my right hon. Friend is about to be overrun by a rush of wild men, that is what my right hon. Friend will do—exactly what he said.
  Listening to economic debates, and, in particular, to the debate yesterday and today, I have thought that the real cleavage is between those who talk about Government expenditure, the balance of payments and economics in general on the one hand and the ordinary people of the country who are called upon to go about their ordinary work, and to vote in General Elections or, from time to time, at by-elections, on the other hand.
  I have sometimes the awful feeling that we are developing organisations, systems of government, industries, departments, firms, trade associations, and so forth, operating on a scale so vast and of such an increasing extent that the number of people who can see what they are all about and where they are going is progressively diminishing. But, worse than that, I think that we are getting to a scale of organisation which is almost beyond the wit of the ordinary administrator either to control or to understand. Now, if this tendency goes on—and I fear it is going on—I see very great dangers ahead for everyone.
  The hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Daines) made what I thought was one of the most interesting and valuable speeches from the other side of the House yesterday, and I found myself in almost complete agreement with everything he said. We are getting ourselves into a condition now in which it is too fatally easy in a large industry for the employers' side and the trade union side to get together to pass on increases in charges and increases in costs to the consumer, knowing that they have the power to enforce that, and the voice and the choice of the consumer is becoming progressively less and less.
  Somehow, we must find some method by which we can reverse this process. We have given the nationalised industries so-called consultative councils, which

  809
  everybody who has ever had anything to do with them knows are farcical; they offer the consumer no possible method of making his voice really heard or his preferences felt. Many of our people have almost lost the habit of what I would call selective shopping; they have almost given up hope that they themselves can influence prices, quality, and so forth, by their own efforts.
  If we are to find ourselves in a sort of managerial revolution in which the ordinary person feels that there is no hope that he will ever comprehend what is going on, that there is no hope that he can by his own efforts or his own voice influence the general direction of economic development, then it is almost impossible to expect that we can get the workers and the management of the country united together behind a Government in order to solve our economic problems.
  Though I am only too well aware that I lay myself open to the objection I have made against right hon. Gentlemen opposite, that they were not being very constructive and helpful in our present difficulties, I do put this forward as something beyond the ordinary detailed controversy in which we usually engage on these occasions, as something far bigger and far more fundamental, to which we on all sides of the House will have to turn our attention, or else we may find that the ordinary people will just give up hope, not only of comprehending but of being able to do what only they can do, which is to save the country.
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: The hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude), in attempting to explain away the cleavage in the Conservative Party, did not so much explain it away as make it clear that it was so deep that hon. Members opposite were taking up their positions on different sides; and that he himself, even though in a rather depressed sort of way, was lining up behind the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the rather thin ranks behind the Chancellor, rather than the rather thicker ranks behind the right hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law). On that, at least, I congratulate him.
  In another part of his speech, referring to the monetary policy, he ranged himself alongside the Minister of State for
  810
  Economic Affairs and tried to explain how the new monetary policy has helped the balance of payments. This the Chancellor has certainly never done. The hon. Member did make the attempt, but I thought that the two ways which he chose were unfortunate ones. He said, "How does it help? It is obvious. It cuts down investment and consumption." We sat here throughout yesterday and heard hon. Members on that side of the House saying it was absolutely essential to increase investments. That was what the right hon. Member for Haltemprice meant when he said, though I did not agree with his argument, that without cuts in the national expenditure recovery was impossible, and many other hon. Members took the same view.
  Mr. Maude: I do not dissent from that obvious fact at all. But it must be perfectly obvious, as the Chancellor said when he was making these cuts, that when we were faced with a deficit at the rate of about £800 million a year we had to stop it first by cutting investments, because that was the inevitable and inescapable way of stopping consumption. But nobody imagines that in the future we shall help trade by limiting investments.
  Mr. Jenkins: Do we understand that, having stopped the drain, the Government are now going to revert to a policy of cheap money? If that is not so, I do not understand the point of the hon. Member's intervention.
  The second point which the hon. Members made was that dearer money would help to cut down consumption. But, in his Budget last March, which he was defending today the Chancellor said he was not going to cut down consumption, and he made it possible for more people substantially to increase their consumption. This afternoon he did not go back on that statement.
  I am glad to see that the Chancellor has come into the Chamber. I thought he opened his speech with some very stirring political passages. In one of them, which I remember, and wrote down, he referred to the great record of positive achievement which stands to the credit of this Government. I think it important that we should see just what has happened and how far that claim can be justified.

  811
  We know that since we had the last economic debate one thing that has happened is that the balance of payments position has turned out to be a little better than we expected. In the first six months of this year the surplus of £24 million was better than we expected. On the other side, we have the rapidly falling trend in production which looks like going on and getting more severe.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) analysed the reasons for the improvement in the balance of payments. He gave two main reasons; first, the improvement in the terms of trade and, second, the fall off in imports which, in so far as it has been possible without a decline in stocks, as the right hon. Gentleman says it has, is of course largely due to a fall in production. There is another factor which might be mentioned, and that is that as compared with the last half of last year invisibles turned out to be about £65 million better; but that was almost entirely due to a seasonal factor, as the Chancellor knows, because we do not pay interest or repayment on the American Loan in the first half of the year and we do in the second half.
  I should very much like to know which of these factors the Chancellor thinks is due to this great record of positive achievement on the part of the Government. We should like to hear from the Chancellor, or from whoever is to wind up tonight—the hon. Member for Ealing, South had something to say about it which was not very helpful—how the Government's new monetary policy fits in with these changes which have been accomplished. What about his Budget? It was presented to the House and the country as designed to accomplish two main things. The first was by keeping the level of the surplus at about the level which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds. South had kept it, to keep the total limit of consumption in the country steady over the next year.
  But during the first half of the year the Exchequer returns have deviated from the Chancellor's own estimate to an extent which it never did under Labour Chancellors. Whatever else may be the reason for the improvement in the balance of payments, it can hardly be due to the
  812
  skilful accuracy of his Budget planning, which has produced a deficit of £300 million more at this stage than he thought it was going to be.
  What about the other aspect of the Budget, which was to give incentives to production and to bring about bigger production in that way? I well remember that during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) was saying to the Chancellor that he had produced what was said to be an incentive Budget to production but that it seemed to be much less than in previous years. The Chancellor got up with that expression of righteous indignation which he occasionally assumes, and said that this was most unfair; and that we should wait until his tax concessions came into operation and then see what happened to production.
  Well, we have waited, and we have seen what has happened. While his tax concessions were not in operation production, while not buoyant, was at least more or less keeping up with the previous level. If one looks at the figures for May, the last month before the tax concessions came into operation, the index of industrial production was 116 as against the same figure for 1951. But if one looks at the figure for June, the first month that his tax concessions operated—when these great incentive concessions came into operation—the index was 111 as against 122 for the previous year. In July, it was 102 as against 111 for the previous year; in August, 99 as against 104. Therefore what we have had as a result of this Budget is all the unfairness of the Budget but none of the benefits, the incentive benfits, which the Chancellor said would come from it.
  One other thing the Chancellor's Budget did I would not have referred to again after the speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South hart it not been for the speech of the hon. Member for Ealing, South, which showed he had taken no account of the points made. The other thing the Budget did was that it produced the most dangerous increase in the cost of living which we have yet had. Not the biggest; we all admit that, there is no dispute about that at all, but much the most dangerous, because it has been against the world trend.

  813
  When my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South and his predecessors were in power there were increases in the cost of living, but all the figures show that we were tagging along at the back. We were doing better than other countries. Our increase was less than that of almost anywhere else in the world. But this Chancellor, for the first time since the war, put us at the top of this "league table." That is an extremely dangerous thing, because he knows, he must know, that increases of this sort in the cost of living necessarily mean wage demands, higher costs and higher export prices. I do not understand how he can feel thoroughly satisfied about his Budget at a time when, as he and his hon. Friends, are continually telling us, we have moved from a sellers' market into a buyer's market: when conditions in the world are very competitive and we are suffering from a fall off in exports which is affecting our production. I do not understand how he can feel satisfied that his Budget has not been at least a contributory feature in that direction.
  So much for the past. I wish now to turn to say a word about the future, and in particular about the coming Commonwealth Conference. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South said, there have been a great number of rumours that a large section of the Government is in favour of a return to nondiscrimination and convertibility. It is pretty clear, too, that a number of Commonwealth Governments are going to take the same point of view. There was, for instance, an article in the "Observer" last week which said:
  "Canadian representatives at the London Conference … will regard the answer to one decisive question as a touchstone of British intentions: Will the United Kingdom allow dollar imports to compete on the same terms as British goods in the rest of the sterling area?'"
  In other words, are we going to do away with all discrimination against the dollar? I very much hope for the sake of this country, for the sake of the rest of the sterling area, and, as I shall try to show, for the sake of world trade as a whole, that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not countenance any such suggestion.
  How is it proposed that, if such a suggestion were followed, it would right the great imbalance between the dollar area and the rest of the world? We all
  814
  know how great that imbalance has been in the whole period since the war. What are the main reasons? They are the great self-sufficiency of the United States, the great concentration of industrial power which there is in the United States, accentuated by the fact that two world wars have built up United States industrial power instead of running it down, as in the case of most other countries. That is the basic cause of the imbalance.
  Do hon. Members opposite, especially those who strongly advocate a return to an entirely non-discriminatory world, really think that the only reason why the United States does not buy vast quantities of manufactured goods from us and other countries is because we are so inflationary that we cannot spare them for export, or that the only reason that we need great quantities of United States goods—wheat, coarse grains, cotton, tobacco, machinery and all the rest—is because we have an import demand inflated by a soft economy at home and not because there is a real need for these products? Do hon. Members opposite really believe that that is so?
  I agree with one comment made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) yesterday. He said that, of course, if we had a free £, convertibility and non-discrimination and a certain rate of exchange, we should get into a position in which we should not have a balance of payments deficit. I agree. I should not like to hazard a guess as to what the rate would be at present. I am sure that it would be a great deal less than 2.80 dollars to the £.
  What would be the effect? If we allowed that to happen, how would the balance be brought about? Would it be by a great increase in exports to the dollar area or by a great reduction of the imports from the dollar area to other countries? I do not think that it would be by the former. United States imports of raw materials are largely determined by the needs of her economy and not by the prices at which they are being sold.
  United States imports of manufactured goods are only a very marginal amount in certain rather specialised kinds of goods. I very much doubt whether the increase in the sales of these types of goods which would take place as a result of an enormous fall in the value of the

  815
  £ and other linked currencies would mean that we should maintain our total revenue in terms of dollars. What would really happen if we allowed the £ to go free and had no discrimination and convertibility is that we should balance, not by increasing our own sales to the dollar area, but by making dollar goods which are badly needed so expensive that nobody could afford to buy them.
  Therefore, what is really suggested by people like the hon. Member for Croydon, East who advocate this return to all the devices of a free market is that we should deliberately accentuate the worst of the diseases from which we are already suffering, that we should deliberately turn further against us the terms of trade which have gone so much against us in the past 10 years. We should do it all not in order to build up the volume of world trade, but in order to get the position that, when it was done, the volume of world trade would be smaller than it is now. It is a great mistake to think that all restrictive devices in the case of world trade necessarily reduce the volume of trade. These devices often arise out of conditions in which it is impossible for world trade to flow freely. Their existence, in these circumstances, may keep the volume much higher than it would otherwise have been.
  In the sterling area, I think that we are suffering not from too much but from too little discrimination. There is the case of what has happened in Australia following the last Commonwealth Conference and over the last nine months. We can see from the figures which have been published that Australia has cut her imports from this country far more drastically than she has cut her imports from the dollar area. Her dollar deficit was actually bigger in the first six months of this year than it had been previously.
  Australia, by cutting too severely against our imports, is helping to produce the troubles in the motor trade, the falling off in exports, and the falling off in production that we are all worrying about. By refusing to cut sufficiently her imports of dollar goods, she is putting us in the position in which our gold figures, although they are improving, are not nearly as good over this year as the balance of payments position of the United Kingdom itself would make them.
  816
  Therefore, this basis of experience of the last nine months within the Commonwealth is an extremely bad basis on which to advocate a policy of general non-discrimination. I do not think that that means that, when we come to the meeting of the Commonwealth Conference, there are no changes which ought to be suggested, no reforms within the sterling area which ought to be brought about. It is absolutely essential that if we are to continue what is now one of the most essential features of the sterling area—the common dollar pool—we should have a much closer, tighter form of organisation in the sterling area.
  What is happening at present, as of course the Chancellor knows, is that within this common dollar pool we in this country are playing our part moderately well. We are somewhere in the middle. A number of the Dominions are overspending grossly, and they are being financed by the Colonies. It is extraordinary that in recent months the three biggest exporters of capital in the world have been, first, the United States; second, Malaya, and, third, West Africa. That is an extraordinary state of affairs. The colonial part of the Empire has been financing thoroughly uneconomic and undesirable schemes of investment in Australia and elsewhere. That is a position which I think cannot be allowed to continue.
  The form of organisation of the sterling area is crazily loose and inadequate to the task. The sterling area is more important to us than the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation for which we have a large permanent expert staff in Paris, whereas there is no such staff to deal with the problems of the sterling area. The only governing body is the Conference of Commonwealth Finance Ministers. The Conference of Commonwealth Finance Ministers never meets until six months after the British Chancellor has found himself in the middle of a crisis. Usually the British Chancellor does not want another conference on his hands until he has got some severe problem to solve. And when there is a problem to solve and he issues invitations the other Finance Ministers usually have crises too. They are too busy to come here until the crisis with which they are called upon to deal is already six months old.

  817
  Even when they do assemble they constitute a very odd body to govern the sterling area. They include the Finance Minister of Canada. We are all very glad that Canada is in the Commonwealth, but it is a fact that we must face that Canada is not in the sterling area and that in its present form Canada is in no way a well-wisher of the sterling area. Therefore, it is a curious state of affairs in which we have Canada very fully represented, the dependent territories within the Commonwealth inadequately represented, and the members of the sterling area who happen to be outside the Commonwealth not represented at all. That really is a most haphazard way of dealing with the affairs of this great monetary area.
  I suggest, therefore, that we need to associate these member countries much more closely in the detailed working of the sterling area, possibly through the Bank of England. In return, they must accept a more rigid control over their dollar expenditure than they have previously been willing to accept.
  We must certainly ask, too, that other countries like Australia should accept more discrimination in the future than they have done in the immediate past, because, if that is not done, the sterling area, so far from being strengthened, will begin to disintegrate. In particular, if the common gold and dollar pool in the rest of the world continues to exist, greater discipline must be accepted among all its members.
  When we have done all these things, we have not by any means solved the whole problem which we are facing in this country. Indeed, no trading or monetary devices will do it, because the basic problem from which we are suffering—looking back over the seven post-war years in this country—is that we have moved from a world in which what we had to sell in this country was scarce and therefore dear, and what we had to buy was plentiful and therefore cheap, to a world in which exactly the reverse is true.
  What we have got to do is, as far as possible—and we cannot do it completely—to change the shape of our economy at home so as to fit in better with the new world conditions, and enable us to live in the difficult world of the second half of the 20th century. That
  818
  means pretty difficult changes here at home. It means, I think, rather greater Government control, and I am not clear how it is in any way possible to bring about these changes if we are to revert to all the devices of a free market.
  One of our objections to Government policy as outlined in the Queen's Speech, is that in the first place it gives no indication at all—and certainly, the Chancellor did not add to it this afternoon—as to what policy will be adopted by the Commonwealth Conference in the near future. Is the Chancellor in favour of convertibility or not? That passage in his speech today was one in which he was more evasive than in any which I have heard him deliver before. It was almost worthy of Lord Baldwin. It said "trust me" and nothing more.
  The Chancellor took up the position of saying that he would do his best for this country and the Commonwealth, and that we must be content with that. Secondly, so far as measures for changing the shape of our economy at home are concerned, there was no indication that the Government appreciated the real urgency of the problem, and certainly no indication as to how they are going to do it.
  5.53 p.m.
  Captain Christopher Soames: The hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Jenkins) tried to show that the main cause of the recent fall in production in this country was the incentive Budget. I really do not think that the hon. Gentleman believes that for one second.
  Mr. Jenkins: I can hardly believe that the hon. and gallant Gentleman thought that I said that the main cause of the fall in production was brought about by the incentive Budget. What I said was that the Chancellor had presented the Budget to us and had said, "Even if you do not think it is very fair, it will be a great incentive to production." As soon as it came into operation, production fell, and I said that that undermined the Chancellor's argument, but I did not say that that was the cause.
  Captain Soames: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the fact that there was an incentive Budget had nothing whatever to do with the fall in production, and, certainly, the people know that full well, as was shown

  819
  recently at High Wycombe. I would say that I hope we have another incentive Budget, because there is no doubt at all that taxation relief is much needed, because the present high level of taxation is having a stifling effect on production and savings.
  I consider it important to differentiate in savings made in different forms of Government expenditure, and also to differentiate in the taxation relief which can be made as a result of these savings in different spheres of Government expenditure. I would divide Government expenditure into three categories—the social services, subsidies and general Government expenditure.
  In the field of social services, the problem is not how much can we save of what we are already spending on the social services, but how much can we afford. The difficulty is in providing the same services year after year without increasing costs. [An HON. MEMBER: "What services?"] I refer to the services which are essential over the whole field of education and health. They should be held at the level at which the country can afford to sustain them.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite know as well as we do on this side of the House that the welfare State would be nothing but a mockery and a mirage unless it be based upon a sound national economy. Any reduction that the Chancellor may be able to make in the sphere of general Government expenditure, outside the social services and the subsidies, should be devoted to a reduction in direct taxation in such a manner as to encourage the further mechanisation of industry, a higher level of production and increased savings.
  I now come to the question of subsidies. If the Chancellor is considering a further reduction in consumer subsidies and other forms of Government expenditure which bear directly upon the cost-of-living index, the resultant tax relief should be given in such a way as to reach every home in the country, and especially those which are maintained on small fixed incomes. A relief of direct taxation would not meet this problem at all, for those who would the most require compensation for an increased cost of living are those who pay no direct taxation, and, therefore, would not benefit.
  820
  Unless this compensation is provided, we shall be faced, and quite rightly, with further demands for increased wages, based upon a rising cost of living, from the lower paid workers, which will inevitably be followed by demands for increased wages from the skilled workers in order to maintain the wage differential, which will, of course, have the effect of increasing our production costs at a time when we are struggling to enable our manufactured goods to compete in the world markets.
  In the last Budget, the Chancellor showed how well he was aware of this problem. It was by far the best Budget which has been introduced since the war, and it struck an excellent balance, not only, as the Chancellor himself said this afternoon, between inflation and deflation, but also between incentive and compassion. What did the Chancellor do to compensate for the rise in the cost of living caused by the reduction in the food subsidies? Increased family allowances, pensions and benefit increases were granted, and 2 million Income Tax payers relieved entirely from the payment of any direct taxation.
  It is these 2 million people who were relieved of taxation in the last Budget, and who do not at the moment pay any Income Tax, together with those whose incomes were not on a sufficient level as to make them pay Income Tax before the last Budget, who will have to be compensated as a first priority if any budgetary measures are introduced which have an effect in raising the cost of living in the next Budget.
  A reduction in the standard rate of Income Tax will clearly not help them. What compensatory measures can the Chancellor take this time? There are, of course, many factors affecting the cost of living over which the Government have no control at all But there is one matter over which they have control. That is Purchase Tax. There is still a considerable element of Purchase Tax within the cost-of-living index. It is surprising that the Labour Government during their six years of office, when the cost of living was rising month by month, did not face the problem and did not realise that by taking out the element of Purchase Tax they would certainly help to hold the cost of living more stable than it was. They did not do it, and there is still a large element of Purchase Tax within the index.

  821
  I can give the House some examples. Here are articles which carry 50 per cent. Purchase Tax—sheets, blankets, curtain materials and towels. Among articles carrying 33⅓ per cent. are electric light bulbs, scissors, toilet soap, toothpaste and razor blades. These are only a few items taken at random. It is towards the removal of these taxes that I consider the Chancellor should devote the monies saved if he reduces subsidies further in his next Budget. I ask the Chancellor to consider carefully whether this would not be the first and logical manner in which to compensate for any resultant rise.
  There is one more point I wish to raise. Everybody knows what a great burden even a small increase in old age pensions means to the country's economy. At present they cost £66 million and without any increase at all they will be costing £489 million by 1975. At the same time, everybody knows equally well how hard it is for old age pensioners to make ends meet. It seems to me a great pity that the old age pensioner can only earn £2 a week without having his pension reduced. Surely everybody would stand to gain if this restriction were removed. No old age pensioner would be paid anything unless he was rendering some service to the community. Why should that service be limited? The pensioner who wished to keep on working and provide for himself a higher standard of living would benefit from the removal of these restrictions. I should have thought that the country as a whole would benefit from this, and I trust that the Chancellor will bear it in mind.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): Mr. Willey.
  Mrs. Jean Mann: On a point of order. Is it not an indignity to the House that this Amendment on the cost of living has been discussed and it is only a minute ago that we have had a representative from the Ministry of Food on the Front Bench? As to the subject of unemployment, there is nobody at all on the Government Front Bench from Scotland, although unemployment is higher in Scotland than anywhere else in the United Kingdom.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That, of course, is not a point of order.
  6.4 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: The hon. and gallant Member for Bedford (Captain Soames) will forgive me if I do not follow him, because I want to set about the Chancellor. I should like to say how fascinated I was by the right hon. Gentleman's performance. I have always thought that, with his gift for glossing over a hopeless brief and making the most of it, he has mistaken his calling and ought to have gone to the Bar.
  I should be a very crabbed partisan if I did not acknowledge the fact that the Government have reason to feel a great deal of satisfaction at the result of the by-election at Wycombe. I feel that the greatest credit for that result goes to the Chancellor. So far he has been just as skilful as he was in the late 30's, when he was probably the most plausible advocate inside and outside the House of the policy of appeasement and Munich. He then used his considerable talents; the same sort of eloquent platitudes that he uses in this Parliament to confuse narrow sectional interests with the national interest. Against the true interest of millions of people in this country he convinced them, by his eloquence and persuasiveness, that the disastrous policy that the Government were then following was in the best interests of this country, when it was no more than a subservience to the cowardly feelings of a minority.
  Once again the Chancellor has been called upon to give his great talents to lead Her Majesty's Government. Once again he is doing exactly the same thing under cover of a national crisis. In the atmosphere of a national crisis, he is quite coolly and calculatingly putting forward the interests of the few. He has chosen the present crisis to begin, and it is only a beginning, what he would term the redress of the redistribution of income achieved by the past Government. He is putting before national recovery the reversal of the policy of the late Government of fair shares for all.
  His primary purpose is to restore as best he can the unequal society we had before the war. He has put that before our national recovery. Because of that, his present policy is as incompatible with our national recovery as his policy of appeasement was incompatible with our national safety before the war.

  823
  I am glad to see the Minister of Food here. Let us take a few illustrations of the policy of the Government. We have been debating food in this House continuously for the past months because we all know—none of us has now any excuse for not knowing—that if we are to make a call on our people generally to make a great productive effort the first thing we must do, and patently do, is to show that we are doing everything possible to ensure that everyone has at least a satisfactory basic diet. It was for that reason that we had during the war, and subsequently, a milk policy.
  I need not expound the advantages of that policy. It has been done far better than I could do it by the Radio Doctor. We followed that policy until the present Government came to office. The present Government have increased the price of milk, twice directly and once indirectly. At first they said that this would have no effect on milk consumption. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food said how unhappy he would be if it did. Then they changed their ground. They said, "We admit it affects consumption, but not significantly."
  I am not going to argue whether a drop of 20 million gallons in eight months of this year is significant. I am not going to argue whether a return, not to 1951, but to consumption levels below those of 1950 is not a reversal of the Labour Party's policy. But surely it is undeniable that it is quite untenable to pursue such a policy in present circumstances. The consumption of milk products, of butter and cheese, is less in this country today than it has been in any other year in peace or war.
  What Government can justify, in these circumstances, reducing the consumption of milk deliberately by a price mechanism? Only a Government that is not concerned with the nutritional needs of the nation. A Government doing this, coolly assuming that the rich will be able to buy all the milk that they need, are a Government who cannot claim, as the Minister of Labour claimed yesterday, that they are entitled to expect from industry the broad co-operation which the Government need.
  Let me turn to the food subsidies. I concede at once, of course, that if £410 million is to be spent on social services
  824
  it is arguable whether food subsidies are the best means of spending that money. That is an arguable matter. But what is quite untenable is to withdraw the food subsidies in present circumstances. That is what the Chancellor recognised during the Election. What he said during the Election, in effect, and what the Tory Party said, is, "We will give you, the people of this country, this guarantee that we will not experiment in returning to Toryism while this country is in difficulties. When we have recovered, then we can afford Toryism." That was the burden of their case. But surely they cannot now cut the food subsidies and again expect the Minister of Labour to get a ready response when he calls for both sides of industry to help us out of our present trouble. The trade unions say, "You have embarrassed us by putting up these food prices."
  There is more to it than that. All the skill and eloquence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot persuade us that this money has gone to alternative social services. Of course, it has not. It has gone mainly to the relief of Income Tax, and whatever merits that may have, it cannot be described as a social service. What the Chancellor has done is to take from all equally and redistribute according to wealth. What the housewife is doing is contributing to the Income Tax relief of people who are already by and large far better off than she is.
  I see that the Minister of State is highly amused by this. He will no doubt have read this document. The United Nations Economic Bulletin reported that, as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's policy, one-half of the people of this country are worse off and one-sixth are substantially better off—not merely much better off, but substantially better off. How can we expect co-operation from five-sixths of the people when they see as a result of the Chancellor's policy that one-sixth only are better off as a result of his fiscal policy?
  Mr. R. A. Butler: May I intervene, because the hon. Member has said several rather extreme things? I do not in any way accept his figures or the source from which they come.
  Mr. Willey: I will read the figures. The source, I may say, is Her Majesty's Government. I am not surprised, as hon.

  825
  Members opposite are a bit confused, that the Chancellor should so express himself. He mentioned pensions and allowances. In respect of increases of pensions and allowances this year we have given to the recipients £49 million. But, as the Minister of Food has told me already, the increases in food prices so far this year amount to £162 million, so that I could hardly be accused yet—I still have some distance to go—of exaggeration.
  If we take the question of the cost of living, as has been repeatedly pointed out, it is really no good repeatedly saying to the House, "We are sorry about the increase in the cost of living, but the increase in the cost of living is not as great as it was in the last 12 months of the Labour Government." Circumstances are not compatible. The increase in the cost of living this year is the result of the fiscal policy of Her Majesty's Government. We could have had a very steady cost of living index this year but for the fiscal policy of the right hon. Gentleman.
  There is another factor always to be taken into account with the cost of living index, and that is the index of wage rates. The position is that although in the corresponding period of the Labour Government the cost of living ran up more sharply than it has done under the present Government, the wage rates ran two points in advance of the cost of living; so that although the cost of living was going up, the wage rates were operating to redistribute income.
  This year it is entirely the reverse. The cost of living so far under the Conservative Government has done what we expected it would do. It has risen two points more than the wage level. Just as we were redistributing income in favour of the many, they are using the mechanism of the cost of living and the wage rates to redistribute against the many. All this has an effect upon industrial production and affects morale in industry. This is one of the reasons why there has been a fall in production. I do not isolate it and say that this is the sole reason, but it is one of the reasons.
  If we compare like with like what do we find? This is not the first crisis that we have faced. We faced a similar crisis in 1949. Let us take the key figures. In 1950—the year of recovery—we held imports within the 1949 figure. So far as value went, they only increased by 2 per
  826
  cent. in value. We increased exports in that year alone by 22 per cent., and in the final quarter of 1950 we were, in fact, running exports 35 points above the previous year. As for production, hon. Members may take either comparison, but the two figures are that we increased production in 1950 by eight or 11 points.
  That was a tremendous achievement. It was a year of tremendous recovery. But what has happened this year? [HON. MEMBERS: "What about 1951?"] I am comparing like with like. In this present year the import cuts are just beginning to have an effect. The exports are now running, not less than 1951 but less than 1950, and production is again the lowest that we have had for over two years. The key figures show this, at any rate—and this is why there is no ground for the complacency of the right hon. Gentleman; there is a world of difference between the recovery we made in 1950 and the recovery that the Government are claiming we are making now.
  Moreover, these figures are a warning of a grim future. The Minister of Labour said that we may be in for a tough time. If these figures are any guide, we may be in for a very tough time indeed. If I may follow the right hon. Gentleman in what he said today, we may next year have cars instead of red meat. The cars which are not going to Australia will be sold on the home market and, presumably, we shall have less meat. What the right hon. Gentleman will do will be to follow the policy that he is following now. Not only will there be possibly less red meat but by the working of the price mechanism, more of what there is may be going to the few.
  I will not go over the figures of unemployment and short-time working. I will merely say that we have not got twice the number of unemployed we had before, but we have got substantially more unemployed than we had before. The case of the right hon. Gentleman until recently was, "Oh yes, but there is the textile industry. Take out the slump in textiles and the figures will be very much better." Now that men are going back to work in the textiles and unemployment is nevertheless still going up, what is their case? In spite of the fact that 18,500 people went back into textiles in the past month, the over-all figure of unemployment went up.

  827
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Ewart) said last night, this is very disturbing to those of us who have constituencies in the Development Areas. We feel the cold hand of paralysis coming back again. We look to our major industries, and we see that in the nationalised industries of coal and steel the Government claim credit for increased production. I say to the Government: for goodness sake leave those industries alone. But do not be too complacent about the coal industry, because it is a fact that output per man shift has decreased ever since the present Government came into office. That is a remarkable thing. There may be some technical explanation, but one of the explanations is that this is simply a reflection of the lowering of industrial morale about which I spoke a few moments ago—and is the direct result of the political actions of Her Majesty's Government.
  As far as the position of steel is concerned, I read in the Sunday Press that the financial experts are apparently advising the Government that they are too optimistic in believing that one-third of this industry can be in private hands by the next election. Can anyone think of anything more likely to add confusion to an industry than to be put into this sort of state? Why not leave it alone? That is what we say in Sunderland, at any rate, because we depend upon steel.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) dealt with the shipbuilding industry. I raised this matter on the Adjournment in the last Session, not so long ago. At the time that I raised the matter I had not the Lloyds Register figures for the third quarter. Those figures are now available and they confirm everything I then said. There are 200,000 gross tons less shipping under construction today than there were 12 months ago. I was very interested to hear the Chancellor refer today to the fact that the biggest yards were fully booked. He used that phrase calculatedly, because the fact is that there are more berths unoccupied today than there have been for years. This is very disturbing to the shipbuilding industry.
  My colleague, who dealt with shipping, gave us some figures but, although they were alarming enough, they dealt only with all shipping which was tied up. I
  828
  shall give the figures for shipping which is tied up for reasons other than repair. In July we had 41,000 tons of shipping tied up otherwise than for repair, but by October that 41,000 tons had become 290,000 tons. This is a sign of a slump. It is very disturbing, and the Government have to do something about it. The trouble is that in the Development Areas, which have a fear of becoming depressed areas again, we see nothing being done.
  I have raised this question repeatedly in the House, but what do we see? The North-Eastern Trading Estate Company, who are responsible for the Government factories within the North-East Coast area, budgeted for the present factories at the end of the present 12 months employing at least 10,000 more workpeople than they were when the year began; but what is the position? They are not employing as many as they were when the year began. They are employing over 2,500 less, so that the very industries that were created to provide against redundancy in the essential basic industries are themselves throwing up redundancy, and nothing is being done about it.
  I have been prodding the Board of Trade about factory building, a question which has been raised in this debate. The position today is that only one factory is being built. We had agreed in principle to the building of two advance factories. The existing circumstances are such that those factories should be built, but the Government are inert. They will not do anything. Hon. Members opposite can talk about the re-deployment of industry, but we see no signs of it on the North-East Coast. It is not being done. In fact, the party opposite cannot do it or, at least, they can do it only by renouncing Toryism and that, while the right hon. Gentleman is Chancellor, they are not prepared to do. They are following the traditional Tory pattern and are putting that traditional Tory pattern above the demands of national recovery.
  I do not wish to exaggerate, but I say that this is not the sort of Britain that will make a recovery from her present economic difficulties. The Government have already shown that they have betrayed their trust. They have put sectional advantage once again above national advantage. We on this side of the House have to resist them at every opportunity. We have to deter their

  829
  return to Toryism. We have endured Toryism for too long. I should think that national demands today would at least have made them hesitant in returning, or seeking to return, to Toryism; but upon that they have set their face. We must get them out, because the longer they remain in office the harder will be the reckoning and the more we shall be called upon to put right.
  I know that it is no good appealing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has to give way to the pressure of the benches behind him; but from these benches we will resist him. I know that this is a difficult position to be in. I know that whilst we resist a return to Toryism we should all work as hard as we can, unitedly, to improve the resources of this country; but we are entitled to say that in present circumstances there is no excuse for their flagrant breach of their election promises. If they go on betraying their trust in this way they can hardly expect us to try to do anything but get them out as soon as we can.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Amery: Listening, earlier this afternoon, to the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) I was reminded of those 18th century Divines who suited their doctrines to their interests. When he talked about the improvement in the terms of trade and said that things were going better he invoked the doctrine of predestination—it was an act of God or an act of grace. But, on the other hand, when he talked about the end of the sellers' market, and German and Japanese competition, that was all due to the original sin in the heart of the Tory Government. That was all our fault.
  I cannot help feeling that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues who put down the Amendment might at least have prefaced their criticisms—nobody minds them; nobody could conceivably quarrel with the fact that they are pointing to the decline in production and exports—but they might have prefaced their criticisms by paying some tribute to the achievements of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he had not balanced the books the hon. Member who has just sat down would really have had something to bleat about.
  830
  The main charge in the Amendment to the Gracious Speech is that
  "… it discloses no positive and effective proposals for dealing with the serious economic position of the country which is evidenced by the decline in production and exports …"
  It is a very sweeping charge, but I suggest that it is rather superficial. We all know—on this side of the House as well as on the other—that the creation of new wealth is fundamental to our recovery. We have to increase production to the point where we can either pay for the goods we want to buy abroad or do without them.
  But surely we also know that the United Kingdom by itself is too small and that its resources are too unevenly balanced to make it possible for us to solve our production problem alone. The natural ground plan on which we have to find a solution is the Commonwealth, and the Government have rightly taken the initiative in inviting the Commonwealth Prime Ministers to join them in London to sit down together to try to work out a solution to the production problems. We shall no doubt see the results of this conference in the next Budget. It would have been difficult for the Government to come to the House with concrete proposals before they had discussed the matter with their colleagues at the Commonwealth conference and decided what those proposals should be.
  The Commonwealth is already largely organised as an economic unit, at any rate as far as the sterling area is concerned. But if we are to secure an overall increase in production we need something more. We really need a Commonwealth development plan. We need to draw up—and I hope the conference will do this, at any rate in outline—the blueprint of such a plan.
  The basis of such a plan of development must be investment. By investment I mean not just liquid capital—it is a great mistake to think of investment only in terms of cash—but also skill and capital equipment. From where is this investment to come? Each Commonwealth country must provide a great part of its own development capital. We must, however, face the fact that, if there is to be an overall Commonwealth plan at all, we shall have to be its greatest backer. Despite all our difficulties, in the six years since the war we have invested more money in the Commonwealth

  831
  every year than the United States are ever likely to invest. Given the right financial and trade policies, I believe we could do even more.
  Our capacity to invest, of course, depends very largely on the financial and taxation policies which are pursued here at home. The restriction of credit pursued by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has succeeded, with his import restrictions, in righting the balance of payments. If we are to increase production as well as restrict consumption, I believe that we must look at present credit policies again. Dear money is a very blunt weapon. It hampers the investment you want to promote just as much as the consumption you want to discourage.
  I am not suggesting for one moment that we should go back to the Daltonian era of cheap money, accompanied by rigid physical controls; but I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would consider the possibility of introducing a policy of differential interest rates. For instance, increased agricultural production would be considerably encouraged if there were something in the nature of an agricultural credit bank, empowered to lend money at less than current interest rates.
  If we are to increase production, we shall also have to take another look at our present taxation policy. To increase the rate of investment here and in the rest of the Commonwealth, we shall have to call for even greater restraint than we have demanded so far from the consumer. I deprecate the tendency which has been expressed by some of my hon. Friends to press for further relief for personal incomes. In present circumstances, that is much more likely to lead to increased consumption than to increased saving.
  Nevertheless, I do believe that the Government should make a great effort to relieve the burden on industry itself. It ought to be possible to save money on Government expenditure; but, even if it were not, some increase in direct or indirect taxation would to my mind be better than to keep on the Excess Profits Levy or than to go on to refusing adequate allowances for the re-equipment and expansion of industry.
  A Commonwealth development plan would, of course, go ahead much faster
  832
  if United Kingdom capital were matched by capital from outside the sterling area. The United States has the greatest surplus of liquid capital and productive power in the free world, but there are very real limits to the amount of dollar investment for which we can hope. For one thing, North and South America still offer greater security and greater profits for the United States investor than most other parts of the world.
  For another thing, the United States Government, and particularly, I think, the new United States Government, are unlikely to favour any increase in aid programmes, even if they agree to maintain them at their present level, of which I am by no means sure. We can get American investment, both private and Governmental, but the condition of getting it, and to my mind the only condition, is to have a development policy of our own which Americans will find it worth while to back in their own immediate interests.
  But the United States is not the only external source of investment. The industrial countries of Western Europe still have unemployed skill and unused factory space. These are also a form of capital. Surely we could devise credit policies which could harness the unemployed skill and the unused factories of the Continent to the development of the food and material resources of the sterling area overseas.
  Europe's capacity to invest depends very largely on its coal and steel production; and here, if I may, I should like to say a word about the Schuman Coal and Steel Community. There was, I think, a very real danger that that community might become a kind of cartel directed against us. That danger still exists, but to my mind it has been very considerably diminished. At Strasbourg, in the summer, as the House knows, we put forward certain proposals which have the effect of associating us with the Coal and Steel Community at every level. These proposals, which were an attempt to give practical effect to what has been called the Eden Plan, received the virtually unanimous support of the Strasbourg Assembly.
  This result was obtained, I think, very largely as a result of the co-operation established between my hon. Friend the Member for Melton (Mr. Nutting), who

  833
  led the delegation, and the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens). Our two parties have not always seen eye to eye about the Council of Europe in the past. This time, I am glad to say that they did, and British influence in the Assembly was greatly increased as a result. It is now up to the Governments, including, of course, our own Government, to see that effect is given to what was done at Strasbourg.
  It is important, to my mind, that they should, for British association with the Coal and Steel Community, as I see it, holds the key to securing Continental co-operation in any Commonwealth development plan. The desire for co-operation of this kind is strong on the Continent. There is a feeling over there that neither the Six-Power Continental community nor the Commonwealth can by themselves become what the economists call viable. Over there, they hold that, separate, each must for a long time at any rate, remain dependent on the United States but that together we could form a trading area which might balance its accounts with the dollar world at a much earlier date.
  This feeling has been expressed in what has been called the Strasbourg Plan—a conception which owes a great deal to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Boothby). The central feature of this plan is that there should be a joint investment programme, serving the Commonwealth on the one hand and Continental Europe and its overseas territories on the other hand. This investment programme would be partly financed by a European investment bank and would be supported by a strengthened European Payments Union and by a European preferential system interlocking with our own system of Imperial Preference.
  I understand that, in accordance with the Assembly's instructions, this Strasbourg Plan is to be laid before the Commonwealth conference. I hope that its discussion by the Commonwealth Premiers may lead to proposals by the Commonwealth Governments for the establishment of closer economic co-operation between the sterling area, on the one hand, and Western Europe, on the other hand.
  So much for available investment potential, both inside and outside the sterling
  834
  area. The next question we have to consider is this: how is all this investment to be attracted into support of a Commonwealth development plan? Some of it will come, of course, from Governments—from international institutions like the World Bank or large public corporations; and I think there is a good deal to be said for the creation of a Commonwealth finance corporation such as Lord Bruce proposed the other day. The greater part, however, whether from inside the sterling area or outside, will have to come from private sources.
  Now, private investors will only come forward if—and even Governments will be well advised to hesitate to invest—they can be sure of a relatively stable market for the goods which their investment will produce. To encourage investment is not only a question of making capital available. It is also a question of securing markets for the end product. You have, in fact, to offer the producer whose capital you want to attract some measure of protection against his competitors. This means, in an economy like the sterling area, that you must be prepared to give priority to the sterling area producer as against his non-sterling competitors.
  A good deal of this priority is already given to the sterling area producer by the existing network of long-term contracts, quotas, tariff preferences and sporadic import restrictions. But much the greatest stimulus to inter-sterling trade at the present time is provided by the system of exchange control.
  The United Kingdom Government may well be pressed at the conference to move towards a freer convertibility of sterling. The aim is right; but I hope they will be very cautious about how they pursue it. In two essential respects we are in a much worse position today to face an experiment in convertibility than we were in 1947. For one thing, our reserves are much lower. For another, the sellers' market is gone. We have to face German and Japanese competition, not to speak of an American tariff operated by a Republican Administration and a Republican Congress. It would be very foolish, in these circumstances, to believe we can get any spectacular improvement in the country's position. Exchange control is not, of course, an impenetrable form of economic defence. It could not

  835
  stop the last devaluation. But, then, no form of defence will work for long unless there is built up behind the defence zone the power of attack. We shall not escape devaluation by sticking to exchange control, but if we have a sound Commonwealth development programme exchange control may help to hold the position until the development begins to bear fruit.
  Exchange rates reflect a country's trading position far more than they influence it. Our present balance of payments is so precarious that we could only face even partial convertibility if we substituted a much stronger system of tariff preferences and other discriminatory restrictions for the present exchange control. This is what we have already done in our relations with Europe. Despite all our difficulties we have kept the £ largely convertible with Continental currencies through the European Payments Union; but we have only kept it so by imposing rigid restrictions on all imports from Europe.
  The conclusion I would draw is that we can move towards convertibility only in so far as our balance of payments improves, or in so far as our partners in the sterling area are prepared to substitute higher tariff preferences and other trade restrictions for exchange control.
  I am well aware that this kind of attitude on our part may be a disappointment to some of our partners in the Commonwealth. This raises another very important question—the question of the management of sterling. It has always seemed to me rather odd that the Bank of England, which serves all the sterling area, should be under the political control of only one of its Governments. I wonder whether the time has not come when we should divide the Bank of England into two parts. The one might be a United Kingdom central bank under the control of the Treasury, and the other a Commonwealth reserve bank under the political control of the Finance Ministers of the Commonwealth. The Ministers might meet once or twice a year in conference and might be helped by deputies sitting permanently in London.
  We have already arrangements of this kind in N.A.T.O. and in the European Payments Union. I cannot see why we should do less for the sterling area. I
  836
  do not know whether such a suggestion would commend itself to other sterling area countries. I feel very strongly, however, that the difficulties in the way of any great advance towards convertibility make it all the more important that we should do all we can to give the other Commonwealth countries a greater say than they have at present in the management of our common currency.
  While on the subject of currency, may I say a word about gold? Seventy-five per cent. of the gold produced in the free world is mined in the sterling area. Here. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). It is quite ludicrous that we should continue to accept that the price of one of our most valuable resources should be quite artificially depressed. This question is of great importance to the South African Union and to Australia. It is becoming of increasing importance to Canada. Surely the time has come when we ought to do something to secure an easement, at any rate, of the position.
  I come now to the question of Imperial preferences and of G.A.T.T., and I should like at once to pay a tribute to the Colonial Secretary's frank acknowledgment at Scarborough that the "no new preference" clauses in the G.A.T.T. were "embarrassing" to the Government and "crippling" to Commonwealth trade. I was also very glad to read the Chancellor's declaration to his constituents that
  "It would be wrong to let G.A.T.T. obligations stand in the wav of desirable changes."
  I take it from this statement that the Government have now decided to press for revision of the "no new preference" clauses in G.A.T.T., as far, at least, as the United Kingdom is concerned. I hope that this may be confirmed when my right hon. Friend replies to the debate.
  We need such a revision for substantial reasons: first, so that we may raise certain tariffs to protect our farmers without at the same time penalising the Commonwealth farmers; secondly, so that we can convince the investor in the United Kingdom and elsewhere that if he puts his money into Commonwealth development, then he will find a market for his produce, at any rate in this country thirdly—and it is not the least important—so that we can stake out our claim to

  837
  a share of those raw materials and foodstuffs in the Commonwealth which may well become scarce under the pressure of American buying.
  I realise, of course, that other Commonwealth countries are at present rather less interested in preferential policies than once they were. They are confident of finding markets for their raw materials overseas. They think they can secure some capital from the United States and the United States Government. I cannot say whether their confidence or whether their hopes are justified, nor how far they may have been affected by the Republican victory; but whether or not the other countries of the Commonwealth wish to give us increased preferences, we can reasonably ask that they will support us when we come to ask, as we must, for a revision of the "no new preference" clauses of the G.A.T.T.—when we ask, in fact, to be free to give them increased preferences.
  In this they would only be following the precedent of Lord Salisbury's Government of 1898. That Government did not depart from the then established policy of free trade, but they denounced their trade treaties with Germany and Belgium—an earlier version of G.A.T.T.—to make it possible for Canada to give preferences to us. We have to maintain the principle that the most-favoured-nation clause cannot be held to apply between the countries of the Commonwealth.
  We cannot put pressure on the other Commonwealth Governments to increase their preferences to us, but I hope the Government will not hesitate to point out very frankly to the conference that the rest of the Commonwealth have a very great interest in helping us to find markets for our exports. Unless we can find markets and so balance our accounts we shall run into a further devaluation with serious consequences for all holders of sterling balances. Unless we can find markets and balance our accounts we shall have no capital surplus to invest in the Commonwealth.
  Most important of all, unless we can find markets and balance our accounts, we shall be unable to maintain the effective administration and defence of the Colonies—the Colonies whose dollar surpluses so largely cover the dollar deficits of some of the sovereign countries of the Commonwealth. I hope that these
  838
  points will be put to the other Commonwealth representatives at the conference—and put clearly. There is no need to be unduly diplomatic in the family circle. What is said today may sow a seed that will give us a valuable harvest in the future.
  Most of what I have been saying so far applies to the sterling Commonwealth, but there is the special problem of Canada. Whatever the strict logic of economics, we cannot consider Canada as a dollar country and nothing more. We must somehow break down the road block in Anglo-Canadian trade relations. How is this to be done? Increasing United Kingdom preferences may help in so far as it diverts dollar purchases from the United States to Canada. Raising the price of gold would help a little.
  But we need something more than that. We need a more imaginative approach on both sides of the Atlantic. I have always felt that our Treasury could be a little more liberal in allowing dollars to migrants to Canada or would-be investors in Canada: and if it were, then we could reasonably ask the Canadians to meet us half way—ask them to agree accept sterling as money, at any rate up to an agreed figure—up to a figure which could be guaranteed against devaluation. That is to say, we could undertake to pay back the sum at the original dollar value.
  Many proposals have been made with this end in view. One very generous one recently put forward by Canadians was that Canada should accept United Kingdom investments in Canada in lieu of the repayment of our dollar debt to Canada. Another is that Canada should simply accumulate sterling balances to spend either on investment in the rest of the sterling area or in buying aircraft, liners, and so on for Canada's transport system.
  We cannot expect Canada to join the sterling area, but if she would agree to have at least a foot in the sterling area we should have taken a great step towards repairing the broken machinery of international payments. If Canada would act as a bridge economically, as she already does politically, between the United States and the rest of the Commonwealth a solution to the dollar gap would be in sight.
  This Commonwealth economic conference may not make final decisions, but it will set the pattern for subsequent

  839
  approaches to Europe, to the United States, and, perhaps, to a world economic conference. It is very important, therefore, that the United Kingdom Government should go into this conference with a clear idea of where we want to go and how we mean to get there.
  We cannot in all this escape our responsibility to give a lead. I have tried in a few minutes to outline what I think that lead should be. I trust the Government are thinking on very much the same lines. How far other Commonwealth countries will follow us we cannot tell. Some may be more inclined to than others. Some may feel more cautious than others. The attitude of other Commonwealth countries sometimes seems rather negative, but for my part I believe that if the United Kingdom Government give the right kind of leadership at this conference they will be astonished at the warmth of the Commonwealth's response.
  Here, at any rate, is an initiative worth taking. Here is the kind of policy which could command the support of the Commonwealth, the co-operation of Europe and the good will of the United States. I pray that this is the line the Government will take, for in so doing they would lay the foundations of a grand design to overcome the economic problems which wrack the free world and imperil its unity and strength.
  6.51 p.m.
  Mr. F. Beswick: I am extremely pleased to be able to follow the hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. Amery). I have listened to every speech that has been made from the back benches opposite in this two days' debate, but his was the first speech that seemed to me at all constructive and to face up to some of the realities of the situation. The Chancellor said earlier that there was no confusion on that side of the House. Certainly he was right in that hitherto there had been a remarkable unity in criticising his policies, or in criticising his apparent lack of economies. So far I have not heard one constructive proposal, until the hon. Member for Preston, North spoke. I should like to follow him on a number of points, and I do intend to follow him with regard to certain aspects of European unity and the development of the Commonwealth.
  840
  I should like first, however, to say just a word about his references to taxation. He made two points. He said that industry required cheaper money, and I agree with him about that. He also said that it would not be fair to abate taxation on personal incomes at the present time, although he said he would like to see taxation on company profits abated. I have often wondered whether it would not be possible to combine both social justice and economic needs with regard to these profits. Would it not be possible to do in industry what we have contrived to do with taxation in land in Death Duties, to tax some of the profits but to leave them in the industry as the property of the Government for the use of the industry? I put that forward to the Chancellor as an idea for him to consider.
  From the other speeches and statistics with which we have been regaled two indisputable facts seem to stand out. First, in each of the six years after the war the output of real wealth in this country has increased steadily, and at the end of six years the rewards for producing that wealth were shared rather more fairly. The Prime Minister himself, when he went over to the United States immediately on his appointment, was able to boast of that. The second outstanding fact is that in the last 12 months the output of real wealth in this country has decreased and has been shared rather less fairly.
  The Government can talk as much as they like about strengthening our financial position, but they cannot deny that our fundamental economic material prospects are not better but worse. Despite what joy or satisfaction they may contrive to gain from the Wycombe result, our people are sick and tired of these continually recurring economic crises.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: The party opposite had them for six years.
  Mr. Beswick: Certainly, they had, and we have had another one this year. The point I make is that the people know full well that the solution of these crises will not be found simply by cutting the imports of canned food, or making the rest so dear that our people are unable to afford them.
  The people of this country—I am not talking about those who speak after

  841
  great study, but of the ordinary people—realise that some basic and fundamental re-arrangement of our affairs is required so as to give some sense and hope in striving to step up production. There is no sense in increasing production if some man-made financial crisis is going to stop people who need goods from buying them from others who are ready to make the goods they need. It is that sort of feeling which has engendered a rather vague and general sympathy for ideas of federation, or confederation, or functional federalism, and so on.
  The mistake that has been made in this country is basing the case for federation primarily upon military forces rather than upon economic needs. The case for some form of federation, which would include our own powerful and potentially even more productive United Kingdom, rests upon the essential economic facts of life and not upon military needs or upon this Communist bogey. One reason why I support this Amendment is that so far the Government have shown no indication at all of recognising this need, this requirement and this feeling for a merger into some wider community.
  The question is: What should our next step be towards this wider community, how big a step should it be, and in precisely what direction should it take us? I think the next step should be with other members of the British Commonwealth and our own Colonial Territories. We should concentrate more upon the possibility there rather than talking in such vague terms about other forms of union which have no economic substance at the moment, and which, as the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Boothby) said, are only a dangerous form of social escapism.
  What does Atlantic union, for example, offer now, apart from a suitable subject for after dinner oratory? It offers military weapons and military personnel which are spreading through Europe, not a sense of security, but a most dangerous form of anti-Americanism. In the economic field, whereas at one time it did offer money which could be regarded as payment for services honourably rendered in a common cause, today that money is regarded as a dole: and when we attempt to send useful articles like bicycles to offset these payments we have the same kind of American people who are complaining
  842
  of the dole being sent erecting an economic curtain and preventing us from doing anything useful in return.
  My first point, therefore, is that we should return to this idea of Atlantic union only when we have achieved economic health elsewhere. We have elsewhere the prospect of some form of union of Europe. I was very interested and very pleased to hear the way in which the hon. Member for Preston, North couched his remarks about the possibility of a federation of six States of Europe. Hitherto it has seemed to me that the attitude of a lot of hon. Members who go journeying off to Strasbourg was that, whilst they were in favour of union in theory, they were against it in practice. They were like men who wanted to marry but were afraid to make love.
  Mr. Robert Boothby: That is the wrong way round.
  Mr. Beswick: No. In theory they were in favour of legal union but were afraid of the consequences. What is even worse, they appeared to be afraid of the joys of union themselves and were determined to deny them to others. Plausible as some of their arguments may sound against federation of the six States, as proposed by M. Spaak, it seems to me that most of those objections fundamentally were those of the dog-in-the-manger. We should encourage these six nations to find their own destiny immediately in a federation. Let them get on with the job. Let us get all the experience we possibly can of the techniques of federation. Let us, at the same time, see what we can do to strengthen our union within the sterling area.
  The hon. Member for Preston, North said that the sterling area was not a viable area, but I think that it is necessary sometimes to remind ourselves—
  Mr. Amery: What I actually said, in talking of the feeling on the Continent, was that the feeling over there was that neither the Commonwealth nor the Continent by itself was a viable area.
  Mr. Beswick: I am grateful for that remark, for I did not think that the idea fitted in with other parts of the hon. Gentleman's speech. It may be a fact that it is not self-sufficient, but it is a very powerful area, and we have sometimes to remind ourselves just how powerful

  843
  it is. It is at least as potentially powerful as the other big economic units of the world. One-quarter of the world's people are inside the sterling area and they do one-quarter of the world's trade. They are an extremely well-balanced community economically. Primary products are well balanced with industrial output. They have almost a monopoly of some materials—one-half of the world's wool, 40 per cent. of the world's tin, and so on. Although we are short of cotton and tobacco, nevertheless, it does seem to me ludicrous that we should allow our fear of the dollar economy to hypnotise us as sometimes seems to be the case.
  It may be said, not so contemptuously as some people choose to speak sometimes of the British Commonwealth, but rather sadly, that surely I am not suggesting that all these countries within the sterling area would be prepared to come to this closer union immediately. No, of course not immediately. Canada is not able to come even within the sterling area; India and Pakistan may wish to settle down still further before deciding on new constitutional affiliations; South Africa has other constitutional problems on her plate.
  But omitting these countries and other non-British members of the sterling area, with the United Kingdom, with Australia, with New Zealand, with the proposed Central African federation and the Colonial Territories—despite what my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) in front of me is saying about there being little left, and I am pained sometimes at the attitude he takes with regard to the Commonwealth in view of the fact that he was once a Minister responsible for their affairs—it is a fact that there are 135 million human beings within that nucleus, and they are living in an area greater than that of the United States and potentially richer than the United States of America.
  Those who, like my right hon. Friend, have had experience of these matters, may ask if I imagine, for example, that Australia would be prepared to come into this union immediately? I do not think that she would easily and without persuasion, but what, not frightens but annoys me, is that no one is making an effort at the present time and no one is
  844
  putting forward the proposals at the present time.
  I put down a Question to the Prime Minister recently that we should have economic union on the Commonwealth Conference agenda, and he brushed that aside, and said that there were difficulties. Of course there must be difficulties and doubts, but ought we not to be confronting and overcoming them? Six years ago, the Prime Minister made a great speech to the peoples of Europe. He said then:
  "There is a sovereign remedy which could enable Europe to dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must,"
  he said,
  "build a United States of Europe."
  It is surprising to me that the Prime Minister, who speaks from time to time such noble words about the British Empire, should imagine that it is much more easy to get Germans to live with Frenchmen than it is for New Zealanders to come into closer union with Londoners. Why should he and other hon. Members opposite be so confident that the Italians and the Belgians will come together in some form of economic union, while those, who owe the same allegiance to our Queen, will not come into some form of economic union? There are others who say that extension of Imperial Preference is more desirable than economic union, and there are friends of mine on this side who say that quotas and long-term contracts can give us the stability we want.
  Mr. Boothby: If the hon. Gentleman rules out quotas and long-term contracts and expansion of Imperial Preference, what does he mean by the extension of economic union?
  Mr. Beswick: I am not ruling them out, and if the hon. Gentleman can contain himself I will explain why. I am grateful to him for staying for a few moments longer than he intended.
  Mr. Boothby: How do you know that?
  Mr. Beswick: I am suggesting that if he has a little more patience he will hear what I propose. I am not saying that we can do without long-term contracts, but I am saying that the long-term contract is not in itself enough. I am making the point that the mere amendment of

  845
  the General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs or alterations of the Havana Convention and so on, will not give us the stability we want. The Australian experience earlier this year ought in itself to be proof of that. How did Imperial Preference serve us when Australia wanted to slash her imports? There we had the humiliating spectacle of British people who had earned the money and the right to buy articles prevented from buying from this country the useful goods that we were able and willing to supply them with.
  That sometimes seems to me as ludicrous as if Yorkshire totted up her separate balance of accounts and said that for the time being she was unable to buy from Lancashire. That seems precisely the same sort of situation which we are now finding in certain parts of the British Commonwealth.
  Mr. Boothby: And of Europe.
  Mr. Beswick: And of Europe, but I am concentrating on what I consider to be a feasible nucleus within the sterling area on which basis, I think, we can build up something better and greater. There are other reasons why I think Preference in itself is not enough. As the hon. Member for Preston, North stressed, we need a redistribution within the Commonwealth of both capital investment and emigration. We need a redeployment of these, not only as between one type of industry in this country and another type of industry, but as between this country and other parts of the Commonwealth area. But any large-scale emigration or decentralisation within the present Commonwealth, divided as it is into separate self-accounting units, would mean death to the United Kingdom.
  How can we employ capital to the best advantage if what we have to consider is not maximum production of wealth for the area as a whole but a favourable balance of payments for one particular part of it? What then are the minimum requirements for which I ask? I ask for a customs union; a common currency; a single balance of payments account for external trading; an agreed policy for emigration and capital investment; and a common defence force paid for by a separate tax on personal incomes within this union.
  846
  Within an area of this kind, the only limits to productivity would be the energy and initiative of the people who live within it and not any financial policy which is liable to chop down their efforts at any moment. I accept the design of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East—the eventual design—of an Atlantic union and so on. We can return to that, I think, if we have first done the job of tidying up within the sterling area. If, at the same time, M. Spaak has our encouragement and assistance for his proposals on the Continent of Europe, we then have two big units which talk with the United States on a more equal footing. We then get a chance of a genuine democratic union and not a dollar domination.
  Those are the lines on which I should like us to be working. It may not be feasible this year, but I should like to think that the forthcoming Commonwealth Conference will be thinking not simply of short-term proposals but of a long-term design as well. I should like to think that at that Conference proposals of this character were to be put forward with the influence and prestige of the present Prime Minister, but it is because I see no sign at all from the Government Front Bench of that imaginative and radical approach that I believe the terms of the Amendment are amply justified.
  7.10 p.m.
  Sir Edward Boyle: The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) said one thing with which all of us on this side of the House would wholeheartedly agree, that the British public is sick and tired of these recurrent dollar crises every few years. Nothing is more vital for the reputation not only of the present Government but also of our Parliamentary system that we should rid ourselves of this two-year cycle of crises.
  I agree with the hon. Member that we shall not solve our difficulties simply by cutting out a few cases of canned meat. Professor Lionel Robbins said in a pamphlet that there was no greater sign of decadence of our present economic life than the spectacle of high-level businessmen and high-level Ministers flying about in chartered aeroplanes discussing the import of canned sardines. We shall not solve our difficulties in that trivial fashion.

  847
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman will pass those views on to some of his right hon. and hon. Friends who have always laid too much stress on what physical control of imports can achieve.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does the hon. Gentleman object to high-powered businessmen going about the world selling Scotch whisky?
  Mr. Boothby: No.
  Sir E. Boyle: My hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Boothby) has answered that question more briefly and more effectively than I could have done.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) was a little unfair for him in suggesting that the Treasury and the Board of Trade were rather ready to wait and see what turned up, and were not taking active measures about the falling off of exports and production. No hon. Member who looks at the latter part of the speech of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, especially columns 174–5 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 5th November, 1952, where he was describing the efforts he had made, can fairly feel that the Board of Trade is being complacent in the present situation.
  I was rather surprised to hear the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), whom we all regard as an expert in this House on economic affairs, talking as though nobody knew quite how putting up the Bank rate affected our balance of payments. When my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Economic Affairs spoke on this point in the Budget debate he was not saying anything original. What he said was that putting up the Bank rate
  "should induce a more cautious approach to the financing of capital investment, including unnecessarily large stocks, on the part of everybody."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 1498.]
  He used the argument that putting up the Bank rate raised the cost of carrying stocks of goods against borrowed money, and that this should slow down replacement orders and thus lessen the burden on our heavy industries.
  I myself said much the same thing during the course of the debate, and this
  848
  argument can also be found in Professor Hawtrey's works and in Mr. Manning-Dacey's recent book on banking. I do not think anybody seriously disputes that, but if any hon. Members opposite still do so, they should look at the slightly pompous symposium on this subject in the Oxford University Institute of Statistics Bulletin for April and May, 1952, which they will find in the reference Library. There they will find that some writers who are not altogether in favour of the policy nonetheless do not at all dispute that it has had a favourable effect on our balance of payments position. If hon. Members will read the speech of Lord Pethick-Lawrence in another place they will find some very good arguments there, also.
  I turn now to the subject of the cost of living and to the charge from the Opposition that my right hon. Friend has, in the words of the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), been benefiting the few at the expense of the many. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Maude) made a very valuable point yesterday when he said in an interjection to the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) that the cost-of-living index had risen only 4 points between January and September, 1952, as opposed to 11 points between January and September, 1951.
  Quite apart from that—this is the point I now wish to emphasise—the present Government has done far more than its predecessors ever did to safeguard the standard of living of those who are most adversely affected by the rising prices of food. On 15th May last the Minister of Food told the House that, on current levels of consumption, during the period between 1st April, 1949, and 31st July, 1951, food prices had risen at an average annual rate of £250 million a year. He also told the House in the same debate that during 1952 the price increases on food would amount altogether to £210 million a year. Therefore, the increases in the price of food this year will be less than the annual rate of increase during two and a quarter years under the previous Government.
  Furthermore, when one considers the standard of living, one has to take into account the other measures which the Government has taken, and, whereas the previous Administration, in 1951, spent

  849
  only £53 million on increased social benefits, the present Government has spent no less than £135 million in this way.
  Mr. James Griffiths: How much of that is derived from increased contributions and how much from Government subsidies? The increases under the National Insurance Act are provided for largely by increased contributions and not by Government assistance.
  Sir E. Boyle: I have not the figure, but I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is on a very good point. The money spent on increasing the National Insurance benefits to bring them up to their 1948 purchasing power and on increasing family allowances, disablement benefits and a large range of other social service benefits amounts to £135 million. Quite honestly, the extra contributions will not come to anything like that amount.
  In the Budget debate my hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) said:
  "The poorest of the poor are not the people with the lowest wages, with small families and in households where, perhaps, one, two, or three incomes are coming in: the poorest of the poor are the old age pensioners, the war pensioners, people drawing industrial injuries benefits, the sick and the unemployed, the people with large families, the people drawing National Assistance. They are the poorest of the poor and they are precisely the people whom this Budget is benefiting."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c 1986.]
  The Government can fairly claim that we have done more than our predecessors did to safeguard the standard of living of those who are most affected today by the rising prices of food.
  Coming now to the question of redistributing the national income in favour of the few as against the many, I noticed that last night the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said that the policy of the Government was to enrich those who were already very well off. The right hon. Gentleman and his friends must know quite well that the wealthy section of the community was able to gain far more during the months which followed the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South than they will ever gain from the Budget of my right hon. Friend.
  850
  It is significant that the Labour Election manifesto last year included the phrase:
  "We shall take measures to prevent large capital gains."
  We have not heard anything about capital gains lately from the Opposition side of the House, because hon. Members opposite know well that since we came into power a capital gains tax would yield a negligible amount. It is not sensible for hon. Members opposite to forget the very great difference in the financial climate for investors since we came into power.
  Last night my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law) said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given us a breathing space, and I think it is reasonable to compare our position today with our position a year ago. No hon. Member opposite could deny that the Labour Administration left us in a position which was worsening. When I say that the position a year ago was worsening, I am not only thinking of the drain on our gold and dollar reserve—I do not intend to quote figures which are so familiar to this House—but, in addition, the textile recession was well under way.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour made a good point last night when he pointed out that between July and October, 1951, unemployment had risen by 78,000, as compared with an average rise of 40,000 during the three previous years. Furthermore, because the capital investment programme was already overloaded, when we took office one of the first steps my right hon. Friend had to take was to impose a moratorium on new school and factory building.
  It was largely the result of the action of my right hon. Friend that it was possible to proceed successfully with the housing programme this year. Compared with the position a year ago, what is the position today? During the first half of 1952 the United Kingdom has succeeded in the task which it set itself for the second half, of eliminating the balance of payments deficit with the world as a whole, and in October, exclusive of United States aid, the sterling area has a dollar surplus.
  The overloading in our capital investment programme has been overcome partly because raw material shortages

  851
  were not so hampering as we feared. It is worth remembering that if it had not been for the textile recession we should, in fact, have secured some increase in production in 1952, because, outside textiles, there have been very considerable increases in production in other industries.
  On the subject of unemployment, whereas last year it rose by 78,000 between July and October, this year it rose by only 4,000 from July to October. It says very much for the effort my right hon. Friend made in the textile industry this summer that just as the secondary effects of that recession were beginning to be felt, the recession itself began to lessen so that in four months unemployment in Lancashire fell from 79,000 to 32,000. I could not take seriously the calculations advanced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth last night, when he sought to show that there were really 600,000 unemployed and not 400,000. His calculations rather reminded me of some of the efforts made to prove that Bacon was the author of Shakespeare's plays. It was not a very valuable contribution to our debate.
  I do not believe that his estimate of 1 million unemployed by the end of the year will prove correct, nor the still more pessimistic guesses of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson). The fact that unemployment has been kept below 400,000 at a time when the sellers' market has ended and competition from Germany and Japan is increasing is, in my opinion, a very considerable achievement, and one of which the Government have reason to be proud.
  I think it is well to remember that today there is no easy cure for unemployment if it comes upon us. I have an uneasy feeling that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South is still living in a rather pre-war Keynesian atmosphere, for it is no good thinking that, with our balance of payments problem, we can attempt to spend ourselves out of unemployment by lubricating the economy with purchasing power or by embarking on a large public works programme. That is why the question of the balance of payments underlies not only the standard of life in this country, but the whole question of our employment position.
  852
  I want now to suggest one or two directions which our policy should follow in the months to come. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer would agree that this is the moment when we should avoid excessive optimism or excessive pessimism. There is no short cut at all to get us out of our difficulties. I always listen to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Boothby) with interest, but when he advocates linking the E.P.U. and the sterling area more closely together, I feel that he is trying to find a short cut which will end our trading difficulties. I am quite sure there are no short cuts in the world today.
  At the same time, I do not believe in the gloom of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton, and I think my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer put the true position very well the other day when he said:
  "What we need is not just production irrespective of what we produce … but production of those things that the world's markets will buy and our industry's growth and progress at home require."
  It is nothing new for Great Britain to lose part of its export trade after a war. It happened after the First World War and that was one of the main reasons—I concede to hon. Members opposite that it was not the only reason—why we had a hard core of unemployment almost throughout the period between the two world wars. We must acclimatise ourselves to the changing pattern of demand, and I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice last night was quite right when he said that our greatest opportunity lies in the field of new inventions. For example, in this country we lead in the design and production of jet aircraft and it is very important for us to keep that lead.
  If we are to make the best use of the opportunity in which these new inventions afford us, there must be some reduction in the burden of taxation on industry. This was the field which was covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) yesterday, and I do not want to repeat the arguments he used. But I was very impressed by the article in the "Financial Times" by Mr. S. P. Chambers who, I think, everyone will agree is an authority on this matter.
  Mr. Chambers points out that undistributed profits in industry have actually fallen during 1951, because to get

  853
  the figures for true undistributed profits we have to deduct from the gross figure of undistributed profits both the increased value of stocks which are purely due to increased prices, and, secondly, the difference between the figure for depreciation actually allowed and the realistic figure for depreciation calculated on a replacement cost basis. I hope that my right hon. Friend, when he is considering this financial policy for next year, will take fully into account the position in which industry finds itself today.
  Yesterday, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Farnham was speaking, he was interrupted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn). I am sorry he is not here, but I would like to take up the point which he made because it is important. The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "If the State collects savings publicly by taxation and uses them for capital expenditure, how is that not a saving compared with private saving which may not be used for capital expenditure but may be used for expenditure on other private purposes?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 10th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 656.]
  In other words, the right hon. Gentleman was suggesting that it does not really matter so much if industry cannot save and build up reserves because we can always obtain compulsory savings by means of a Budget surplus and higher taxation.
  The answer is that if we carry taxation beyond a certain point, we are going to have dis-saving by private individuals. And that is what is happening now, which is why I cannot agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) that we should consider in present circumstances an increase in direct taxation on personal incomes.
  With regard to imports, I have said before in this House that there is a need for adequate depletion allowances for those who prospect for minerals in this country. Such work is extremely important at a time when we must try to cut down our import bill for raw materials as far as we possibly can.
  In conclusion, I want to say this. I listen with great attention to any speech by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish). There are few hon. Members opposite for whom I have more respect. He made a very
  854
  sincere speech yesterday, and I understand the motives which caused him to make it. Of course, he is absolutely right when he says that those who through no fault of their own, have fallen behind should be given assistance, but it will not be possible to do so unless other people are earning and are creating new real wealth. We must earn before we can have the kind of social services which we should all like to see.
  I end by reminding the hon. Member of some wise remarks by the economist Marshall:
  "Progress mainly depends upon the extent to which the strongest, and not merely the highest, forces of human nature can be utilised for the increase of social good."
  We all want to see those helped who have fallen behind in the race, but we shall not see that so long as we penalise success; for only out of success and initiative can real wealth be created.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mrs. Jean Mann: This has been a very interesting debate, and rather amazing in the buoyancy and optimism that have been displayed from the Government benches, beginning with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  The right hon. Gentleman jibed and poked fun at the Opposition for their dissensions and differences of opinion, but I recall that on the 2nd of this month one of his own hon. Friends attacked him viciously—shall I say attacked his policy? He made statements that are printed in the newspaper which I have, and that would cause alarm. He finishes by saying:
  "There is no escape from it, except to disaster."
  He also says:
  "Mr. Butler has succeeded in restoring the balance of payments to our trade. … He has been helped by an unexpected turn in our favour of the terms of trade, i.e., we can now buy more goods abroad for less exports."
  He goes on to say:
  "Everything is overshadowed by the double menace of falling production and falling exports. If this continues we shall be back in the worst economic crisis we have yet experienced."
  That does not seem to line up with the optimism of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle) who has just sat down, or of the Chancellor in opening the debate. Hon. Members

  855
  may wonder who the gentleman was who wrote so despondently. I almost said that it was the hon. Member for Bretton Woods. It was the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Boothby), who has just left the House. He is the Ebbw Vale of the Tory Party.
  The hon. Member for Handsworth has been over-optimistic in regard to the cost of living. He continues the old fairy tale. Indeed, the Tory Party will repeat it so often that they will believe it. It goes something like this: "Whereas in one year you, our opponents, raised the cost of living by 12 points, in four months of the year following we raised it only by four points. Therefore, the implication is that we dropped the cost of living. In our hands, the cost of living went down."
  Did hon. Gentlemen opposite win High Wycombe by that sort of fairy tale? Is the truth not that the Government have constantly added to the cost of living week by week and month by month since they got into power? Never, since Ananias courted Sapphira has there been such an example of misrepresentation.
  Sir E. Boyle: I have never courted Sapphira, but I have courted Handsworth twice successfully. My quotation was related to the standard of living as opposed to the cost of living, and I had an absolute watertight case that we have done more than was done by the hon. Lady's party for those who are most affected by rising prices of food.
  Mrs. Mann: Let me take up the last sentence used in that interruption, that hon. Gentlemen opposite have done more than was done by the Labour Government. The hon. Gentleman based his remark on a statement that £49 million was given to the old age pensioners to balance the withdrawal of the food subsidies. I understand—I am not sure that my statement is absolutely accurate—that the withdrawal of the food subsidies meant a saving of £250 million per annum. If the Government gave £49 million of that sum to the old age pensioners, who is getting away with the rest of the swag, with the £200 million? Let it be remembered that of the £49 million given to the old age pensioners the workers have had to contribute 7d. or 8d. per week in stamps to meet that extra benefit, so benignly conferred on
  856
  the old age pensions. I do not want to be interrupted any more. If hon. Gentlemen opposite feel they want to have it out with me I am prepared to go on to any platform and to address an audience on the lines of the challenge made to me in the interruption.
  There have been three attacks from the Government on the cost of living. There is the frontal attack by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the attack that everyone knows about, on the rationed goods. There has been an underground movement, whereby the Ministry of Food have increased, to my knowledge, 95 different items of food and food products, behind the Chancellor's back. Does the Chancellor know of it? I have every item here surveyed and tabled.
  There have been 95 items: beverages including chocolate, grapefruit, pineapple, flour products, breakfast foods, bread, cakes, cereals of all kinds, split peas, lentils and dried peas. There have been increases in every kind of tinned goods, all jams, condiments, sweets, confectionery, meat products—I am not referring to the Budget increases, but to increases far greater that have been taking place—herrings, cod, whiting, all kinds of cleaning materials which the housewife usually uses, and all kinds of toilet necessities. I do not specify them all. Then there are candles, matches, fire lighters, paraffin, electricity, gas and, to go a bit wider, newspapers, postage—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Municipal rates.
  Mrs. Mann: Yes, caused by the increase in interest rates in the Budget, which has consequently raised rents also. The list is interminable. This survey was taken by a group of women in the Midlands. It was necessary because in all the Questions I have put to the Ministry of Food I have been referred to the interim cost of living index and, when I go to the Library and study that, it leaves me as wise as before. It is time that we specified every one of the 95 items that have been increased in price since this Government came into power.
  I said there was a frontal attack by the Chancellor. There was also an underground movement by decontrolling item after item, as a result of which prices have gone up. And there is a secret service, in that short weight is now permissible. There is short weight in

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  chocolate bars, short weight in soap bars. I noticed that one firm was advertising a decrease in the price of soap. When I weighed their soap it was a quarter of a lb. short in weight. They were selling it, not by weight, but as a bar which had been decreased in price, and the shortage of weight meant that the soap was increased in price. I have letters from housewives telling me that tinned milk is thinner than it was before and that even vinegar is now diluted.
  Prices have gone up steadily in spite of all the silly talk—"We have only put on four points whereas the Labour Government put on 12 points." It is like the husband who on being asked, "Do you beat your wife?" answered, "No, I only beat her on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday; her first husband beat her every day of the week." The housewives expected a change—the posters' said, "Time for a change"—but they did not expect the change to be a still further increase in the cost of living.
  Is it justified? I say it is in no way justified and I shall quote now from the Economic Bulletin for Europe. This bulletin shows that in the last year of Labour Government wholesale prices moved up swiftly and the calculations are based on the year 1948 at 100. In March, 1951, the index figure was 143, in April, 146, in November, 150. That was a steep rise and surely justified a rise in prices which we on this side of the House were most reluctantly compelled to impose.
  But how fared the Opposition, the Government of today? In April, 1952, the Economic Bulletin for Europe showed that the wholesale price index had gone back to 150 but, when we suffered 150, our retail price was 119 whereas this Government's retail price was 125. In other words, an increase in the wholesale price justified the Labour Government in increasing retail prices, but a reduction in the wholesale price which has gone steadily on from the month of April has resulted in the Government steadily increasing the retail prices. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can explain that?
  The Minister of State for Economic Affairs (Sir Arthur Salter): I cannot follow the hon. Lady into the intricate detail of her argument, but she has fallen into one or two fallacies which ought to be noticed. In the first place, I think she
  858
  quoted as the amount of the reduction of food subsidy the amount of the food subsidy that remained after the reduction. In the second place, she quoted a number of specific increases on foods, some of which were due to the withdrawal of subsidy. That is counting the same thing twice over. In the third place, in putting the other side of the account, she counted the amount paid to pensioners, but omitted to count also the removal of 2 million people from the ranks of lower Income Tax payers.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain the point which has been put by my hon. Friend—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hopkin Morris): Order. Mrs. Mann.
  Mrs. Mann: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to refute my figures from the Economic Bulletin of Europe. They show that the wholesale price has fallen from 150 to 149, and the Bulletin also shows that at that time out of 20 specified European countries the price index either fell or remained stable. During this seven months the United States increased their cost of living by one point whereas the United Kingdom increased the cost of living by six points. What justification is there for a Government, while experiencing a reduction in the wholesale terms, increasing retail prices?
  Perhaps right hon. Gentlemen opposite can explain that, and can explain also why we cannot get eggs, cheese or butter. It was said at one time that when a housewife saw a mouse she ran away in fear. Well, if a housewife saw a mouse today she would run away for shame, for she has not even cheese for her family. Yet I notice that Canada has said that Britain can obtain 10 million lbs. of top quality Canadian cheese by Christmas if she wants it. They have cabled the Minister of Food that they can supply the cheese at a price to be negotiated, and have said that if the British Government decide to act upon the offer, we could have the cheese in England in time for Christmas.
  Are we going to have the cheese? Are we going to have any more butter? Are the Government going to pass on to the housewives the fall in the wholesale

  859
  prices, or are they going to continue the record by which they
  "have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done; And there is no health in us."?
  I should not like to conclude without referring to the other part of the Amendment. It particularly affects Scotland. Unemployment in Scotland is rising to proportions that become most disturbing indeed. On 13th October, the figure was 68,138, of which Glasgow bore 22,000, equalling 3.6 per cent. of the working population. My own constituency bears a proportion equal to 6.5 per cent.
  In my constituency, there is evidence of short-time working. In April, 1951, for instance, the British Tube Works were working three shifts and employing ever 1,000 workers, but in 1952 they were employing only 764, a loss in one section alone of employment to 237 men.
  There is a third aspect. The Amendment attacks unemployment and short-time, but there is creeping into these figures something that is extremely disquieting. That is, an increase in the employment of juvenile labour. I am wondering whether it means a return to the social conditions of the inter-war years, when father could not get a job but the young son, the boy leaving school, was engaged. I notice that the Glasgow Trades Council reported at their meeting this week that there were 2,661 more workless men and 205 more workless women, but that in the case of boys and girls the figures were decreasing. I do not want to make an assertion without hearing the Minister of Labour upon this but throughout Scotland, and Lanarkshire in particular, there is the fear of a return to the days when father, and even mother, is thrown out of a job but the young people of 16 and 18 are taken on.
  Hon. Members opposite resent it being said that there are some amongst them who want unemployment. I should not like to lay such a serious charge at anybody's door, but people in whom I must have the greatest faith have told me that in conversation with employers of labour, statements have been made that "When we get this crowd out—" that was, the Labour Government—"we will be able to pick and choose." That has been said, and there have been variations of that kind of theme.
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  I do not say that the Government policy is to have unemployment—that would be sheer economic madness, because this little nation must be set to work; but there is no doubt that some of their followers welcome unemployment, or a certain measure of it, because it allows them to pick and choose.
  In the statement that has been made today I find nothing that would help the economic recovery of the country. How does the removal of food subsidies help the economic recovery? How does watering the vinegar and giving short weight in commodities assist our recovery? In the same article to which I have referred, the "Ebbw Vale" of the Tory Party says that import cuts have invited reprisals, and I think that this is true; it has contributed to unemployment. If we do not buy from countries, they cannot buy back from us. The Government well deserve the vote of censure which the Amendment implies, and I have great pleasure in supporting it.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Fisher: I should dearly love to follow the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) into the matter of food prices—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not do so?"]—but unfortunately I am precluded from doing so because I am Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister of Food and I have not to make any remarks about food, much as I am tempted to answer the hon. Lady.
  I want to return to what I think is the main problem which the debate has posed; our prospects of emerging from the difficult economic situation which the Government inherited a year ago. Some people still seem to think of our troubles as being temporary. Some think that they can be solved by import restrictions or by financial controls, and this was even implied in some of the things said yesterday by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison).
  So far, of course, practically all the steps taken by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer have been restrictionist in character, but that was necessary in order to stem the torrent in which our gold and dollar reserves were disappearing. Since then, however, a year has passed and the first crisis, at any rate, has been averted. Our thoughts are now

  861
  turning, as they have been during the debate, to the other side of the slate; the positive and expansionist policies which alone can rescue us from our precarious economic position.
  Some people pin their hopes on achieving a trade balance with the United States of America, but I believe this to be quite illusory and a hopeless quest. If it could be achieved it would be ephemeral, with no firm basis or hope of permanence about it. We quite delude ourselves if we hope to solve our problems by increasing our exports to the U.S.A.
  America has immense natural resources. She has a tremendous volume of primary production. Her industrial output, I think, is equal to that of the whole of the rest of the world put together. Why should we imagine that 150 million people in America will buy indefinitely the manufactured goods made by 50 million people in this country, when she can make all those goods just as well, or better, for herself? I know that the United States needs some of our products, but in value she needs only a fraction of our industrial output. I do not think that any weaker economic units such as our own can hope for long to equal the far stronger American production.
  Even if we achieve that miracle, even if we balance our trade with America, in the end what would be the result? As soon as her industries were affected by our exports, we may be quite sure that a prohibitive tariff would at once be raised against us. And then, what would happen in two or three years' time, when the United States re-armament programme has been achieved, when rearmament has reached its peak and is followed, as it may well be, by a recession?
  I think that is bound to result in a sharp decline in American imports, and, as we all know very well, often a quite small contraction of trade in the United States can have a totally disproportionate effect on our own very much weaker economy. Since the war, we have simply gone from one crisis to another, but, when the United States completes her re-armament programme, we may then be faced with by far the most serious crisis in the contraction of trade in America, with its effects, which will probably paralyse the trade of the whole sterling area.
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  That is not in any way to criticise America; far from it. Her great generosity, and her ready acceptance of all the responsibilities as a great Power which we once bore alone, have been the most remarkable acts of imaginative statesmanship since the war that the world has seen, and that is rightly acknowledged on all sides, but it seems to me that we have to save ourselves, and that we cannot really expect the United States to do it for us.
  Where, then, should we turn? Where can we turn? This island is too small to be an efficient economic unit in the modern world. Europe, with so much of its agriculture behind the Iron Curtain, is already over-industrialised, and, if we link up economically with Europe, we should merely add to that unbalance. Surely, in the Empire there still lies a very real and bright hope for us, because there is there already, potentially at least, the quantity and diversity of natural resources upon which we really could build up a strong economic unit—a unit as strong and as well balanced as the United States itself.
  In the Colonies, we have unlimited opportunities for the creation of new industries and the expansion of old ones. In the Dominions, we have these vast and under-populated territories, whereas here we have 50 million people crowded into this little island. If we stand alone, each one of us, we are weak, but, together, we could create an economic unit which would be as strong as that of the United States. If we negotiate, whether politically or economically, simply as the United Kingdom, we should negotiate from weakness. Australia or New Zealand, trying to do the same, would also negotiate from weakness, but, together, the Commonwealth, as an economic unit, could negotiate from strength and in a way which no one of us individually could possibly attain.
  Of course, I do not suggest Empire Free Trade. That would obviously be to oversimplify such a complex trading system as our own. Obviously, the Empire's economic structure has to be just as flexible as the Empire's political structure. We have made this attempt once before. We made it in 1932 at Ottawa, when we tried to create our own imperial trade balance, and we had a very fair measure of success. We recovered more quickly

  863
  from the 1931 slump than any other nation in the world. I believe that our hope today lies, and must lie, along the same path.
  We have a tremendous consumer demand in the Empire for our products. I know that 1951 is perhaps an unfair year to take, from the point of view of what has happened since in Australia, but, if I may give the House the figures for motor car exports for 1951, they show that 107,000 motor cars were exported to Australia in that year, and only 20,000 to the United States. Even little New Zealand took 32,000, and 24,000 went to South Africa. If we were able to multiply our exports of motor cars to the United States by five times, which is scarcely likely, we still would not achieve the total exported to Australia in that year, and the same thing applies to motor cycles, bicycles and many other products which we want to sell.
  Joseph Chamberlain, who was the architect of this policy in which many of us so sincerely believe, had in his mind a preferential partnership by which Britain would export industrial products and the Empire would supply the primary production. I think that needs a little modification today, because every large Dominion has, to a greater or lesser degree, gone in for industrialisation, and many of the Colonies may wish to do so in the future.
  It is really only natural that they should strive to achieve their own internal trade balance if they possibly can, but, to offset that, we have this world demand for food and raw materials, and, while many Empire countries may seek to balance their own internal trade position by encouraging their industries, we on our side seek to assist our internal balance by encouraging our production of coal and agriculture. In Britain, I am quite sure, there will be fresh seed to sow which may well flower from the inherent inventive genius of our people. My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law) touched on this point yesterday, when he said that every important modern invention had originated in this country.
  Now we are at the beginning of a new reign. Think how weak and distracted we were when the first Queen Elizabeth ascended the Throne 400 years ago. Yet we achieved much glory and renown in
  864
  the years which followed. Again, at the close of the Napoleonic wars, though victorious, we were poor and depressed, our finances strained and straightened at the end of another world war against another would-be world dictator. Yet, under another great Queen, we had within a few decades, invented the steam engine and undergone the industrial revolution, which enriched Victorian England to a quite unbelievable extent and gave us for generations the leadership of the whole world.
  I like to be an optimist, and I am sufficiently of an optimist now to believe that what we have done so often before in our long island story we may yet do again in the new Elizabethan Age, but, to do it, we have to have tremendous faith, especially in the brains and character of our people, and also in the immense resources of our own Empire.
  Mr. M. Follick: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that, for 100 years, with the single exception of the Crimean War, Britain had no wars at all of any importance—no great wars—while all the other nations of the world were fighting great wars?
  Mr. Fisher: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point, but there were not many world wars during the Victorian era, and of course, it was very helpful to the prosperity of all nations that that condition obtained. At any rate, they were not wars on the scale which we know today.
  However, the important thing is that, although we may need our Imperial resources and have faith in them, the really vital factor is that we should use them, and, in many cases, we are not. One of our greatest weaknesses today—and I was glad to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) on this point—is this exclusion of Canada from the sterling area.
  As a result, we cannot play our proper part in providing the capital to develop Canada's wonderful resources in nickel, asbestos, uranium, iron ore, copper, lead, zinc and oil. All these things Canada has in such abundance, yet we are not able to try to help her to develop them. There we have limitless opportunities in Canada, with only 15 million people to exploit them and only American capital to foster their development. The reason

  865
  for that is that we cannot afford the currency, and what a pitiful thing it is. What is currency but a unit of trade which we invented and designed to help trade and bring more trade, but which has yet got us into this ridiculous position?
  It may be naïve to say this, but I cannot believe that it is beyond the wit of statesmanship to devise some system by which Canada could take part payment for her exports in sterling and, in return, that we perhaps should give preferences to Canada and so divert some of our dollar purchases from America to Canada. Then there are the other Dominions, all of whom want investment and also the manpower with which we could supply them.
  The Colonies need capital investment, equipment, new plants, railways, bridges, harbours, roads, mining and factory and agricultural equipment. All these things are urgently needed while we need the food and raw materials which the Empire could so easily send to us. In all these things we should be helped enormously if we could extend Imperial Preference.
  The mutual remission of that duty could be the quickest and most effective stimulant one could think of for our Imperial trade. It is no longer a controversial issue. It is certainly not a controversial issue now between the parties. I recall with pleasure a debate last February initiated by the hon. Member for Wandsworth, Central (Mr. Adams) and the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) on the subject. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Uxbridge is not in his place. I was encouraged by his speech earlier in this debate. I hope that we may yet achieve almost a unanimous thought on both sides of the House on a policy which, so far, successive Governments have failed to implement.
  We are in a silly position where we cannot increase old preferences or establish new ones. Only G.A.T.T. bars the way and that can be denounced, as we all know, at 60 days' notice. I hope that at the forthcoming conference the Government will do so. I liked the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams) yesterday, when he said that he hoped the Government would give a lead. I hope so, too. If we imagine ourselves to be still the leading nation in the Commonwealth
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  we have no right to be lagging behind. We have a positive duty to give a lead to the other great Dominions. I welcome very much what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) this afternoon when he lent his influential advocacy to the idea of a permanent economic body sitting in London and advocated a closer Imperial economic structure.
  Summarising these essentials as I see them, we want an expansionist Imperial policy as opposed to a restrictionist island policy which I think we have followed so far. At home, as the Chancellor mentioned today, we want an expansion of our own agriculture and an increased production of our own coal. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice said yesterday, the Chancellor should also encourage by richer rewards the inventive capacity of our people.
  We should also develop the iron and steel and engineering industries not only for their great value as exports but for the part they play in the Imperial economy. There should be greater export of capital goods to the Empire, an expansion on a much larger scale than hitherto of emigration, state aided by arrangement with Dominion Governments. There should be an economic link-up of Canada with the Empire, a renunciation of G.A.T.T., and an extension of Imperial Preference.
  Each one of these eight suggestions would not do very much good by itself, but all eight put together could play their part in a pattern of permanent recovery on the lines some of us wish to see. I believe that, together, they would give us some hope of solvency and even of prosperity in the future. If that were to happen, through the bonds, light as they are, which still bind the Empire together, we might find that this little island, which taught the world the art of freedom, might teach it too the art of economic unity and expansion.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. S. N. Evans: The hon. Member for Hitchin (Mr. Fisher) is in favour of an expansion of agriculture in this country. I am glad to hear it. I shall regard him as a "buddy" henceforth. I want to talk about agriculture, and I realise that it is not a very popular subject in this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Unlike the White House, Korea

  867
  and Mau Mau, it has no political sex appeal. It is awfully important for all that, because this import-export problem, this balance of payments problem, and the dollar gap will be with us for a long while and it is in this industry, which is such a laggard at this moment, that recovery can commence.
  I agree with much of what has been said by the hon. Member for Hitchin. The defence of the £ is as important as military defence today, and, of course, there can be no doubt that what the £ is worth on 1st January, 1954, will depend not least on the activity or lack of activity of the British farmer. The British farmer has been very well looked after in the last few years. The 1947 Agricultural Act, which was introduced by the Labour Government, was intended to create a revolution in British agriculture.
  Here I should like to say how sorry I am that the ex-Minister of Agriculture, my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), is not in the Chamber tonight. I have been talking about agriculture for two-and-a-half years, and it might have been thought by inference that by implication I was being critical of his office. But he has never allowed himself to get sour or allowed the happy relationships that exist between him and me to be disturbed. I hope very much that we shall soon see him with us, greatly recovered in health.
  The Labour Government introduced the 1947 Act with the idea that it would bring about a revolution in agriculture. So it has. But it has been a one-sided revolution. It has brought immense prosperity to the farmer, but almost wholly at the expense of the housewife and the taxpayer. Farm profits in 1938 were £55 million. They were £183 million in 1947. For each of the last four years they have averaged £290 million.
  The farmers enjoy subsidies, guaranteed prices and a completely sheltered market. None can deny that farmers occupy a privileged position in our national life. Both in peace and war they have financial and physical security. We, the rest of the nation whose competitive force in international markets is tremendously influenced by the cost of British farm products, are entitled to expect a better return than we are getting at the moment. I suggest to the farmers that they should think in these terms—that they have not
  868
  only the responsibility of looking after their family fortunes, but that they also administer a trust on behalf of the nation. We must have a yardstick. I will take as my yardstick for comparison the Danish agricultural industry, where there is no advantage of soil, climate or wages. To crash through this sound barrier of British agricultural inertia, apathy and inefficiency I am forced to make some comparisons, and I must say that they come out very badly for the British agricultural industry. For example, in 1950 the Danish yield of wheat per acre was 27.9 cwt.—33 per cent. higher than the British yield. Had the British yield been equal to the Danish yield we should have had 860,000 tons more wheat, and that would have saved us 75 million dollars.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Ewart) was talking about a shortage of steel in the shipyards. From time to time we in the Midlands experience a shortage of steel. Steel is one of our bottlenecks in this country. How much steel could we have bought with that 75 million dollars? In 1950—I quote 1950 because this is the last year for which authenticated Danish figures are available—the Danish yield per acre of oats was 24 cwt.—26 per cent. higher than the British. If our yield had been the same, we would have had 700,000 tons more home grown oats, and 700,000 tons of American oats represents 47 million U.S.A. dollars.
  All the while this industry complains about the shortage of feedingstuffs compared with pre-war. My constituents are having to make motor cars which they would much like to drive themselves, to sell to foreigners to pay for feedingstuffs which the British farmers could, in the light of these figures, be growing for themselves.
  I know the House is not fond of statistics, but statistics are very important.
  Mr. Anthony Hurd: If you get them right.
  Mr. Evans: What they reveal is suggestive; what they conceal is vital, so I will continue with this statistical striptease, if I may. I have said before in this House that the Danes supply us with a pound of butter for 3s. That is less money than we pay the British farmer for a gallon of milk, and, as all the world knows, it takes 2½ gallons of milk to

  869
  make a pound of butter. I have been puzzling how that comes about. There is no advantage of soil, climate, or wages. How does it come about? They enjoy good living standards in Denmark, as anybody who has been there knows. It is not a backward, illiterate country where people live on a bowl of rice a day.
  I have been able to get some figures. I found that whereas the Danish milk yield per cow in the year 1950 was 736 gallons, the British yield was only 594 gallons. That is a difference of 24 per cent. Danish cows gave 24 per cent. more milk than British cows. This is a national average. When I suggested that high prices and subsidies were concealing a good deal of agricultural apathy, inertia and inefficiency, all hell was let loose. The N.F.U. nearly went "barmy." The important thing is this. Had the British yield per cow been equal to the Danish yield per cow, there would have been 452 million more gallons of milk available in this country, and from that milk there could have been made butter sufficient to give 20 million families in this country another 9 pounds.
  Mr. Anthony Fell: Has the hon. Gentleman got the butter fat content figures for those yields?
  Mr. Evans: I have the statistics issued by the Health Department of the City of Birmingham and the City Analyst has reported that in the first quarter of 1952 one in five of all the milk samples supplied were under minimum standards and that these were the worst figures for 70 years. That is the position in regard to the fat content of British milk. It is worse today than it has been for 70 years. These are the figures revealed by the City Analyst in Birmingham. I am rather glad the hon. Member interrupted. Let me repeat that in the first quarter of this year one in five of the milk samples tested by the Birmingham City Analyst were under minimum standards and the figures were, in fact, worse than they have been for 70 years.
  Mr. Fell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and allowing me to pursue this point. I do not think, with respect, that that proves anything. Would it be possible for him to give the butter fat content figures for Denmark and Britain over the period covered by
  870
  the statistics which he has been talking about?
  Mr. Evans: I am only talking about one year. Of course, the Danish milk is immensely better than ours in terms of fat content. They have much higher standards which their Government compel them to keep. Here we keep pouring into this industry vast financial blood transfusions without insisting on those minimum standards of efficiency and quality to which we are entitled.
  Mr. Fell: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to interrupt him once more? I shall not interrupt him again, I promise him. The fact is that the hon. Member has been trying to prove something by statistics regarding the quantity of milk per animal. Those figures prove absolutely nothing without the relative statistics regarding the butter fat content as well. He is not able to give those figures.
  Mr. Evans: I am not able to give precise figures, it is true, but I will say this—
  Mr. Fell: Those are the only figures we want.
  Mr. Evans: I can tell the hon. Gentleman this from memory. Whereas the Danish butter fat content will be in the neighbourhood of 4 per cent. and probably over, the British butter fat content will be nearer 3 per cent. That is the national average. Additional to this extra yield per cow per year, which is 24 per cent., the quality of the milk is immensely higher.
  I should like to impress this figure on hon. Members. If the yield per British cow in 1950 had been equal to the Danish national average we would have had 452 million gallons more milk, and from that milk we could have made sufficient butter to give 20 million families in this country 9 pounds of butter each in addition to the meagre ration that they are getting.
  I do not mind what the farmers get. So far as I am concerned, they can have the Crown Jewels for the new £250,000 N.F.U. temple in Knightsbridge. They can have Hyde Park for their point-to-point meetings. What I want is a speedy increase in the productivity of these 20 million fertile acres—the most fertile in the world.

  871
  May I now proceed to the problem of the balance of payments, the dollar gap? We are all worried about this. We all know that the defence of the £ is important, but it is no good making speeches here about it if we are not prepared to do something. The Labour Government created conditions in which this industry was ready for a marked advance in productivity and efficiency, but we have not had it. We have been very badly let down. We have the best farmers in the world, but it is the overall picture that matters.
  Let us take the question of barley. The Danish yield per acre was 26.1 cwt.—37 per cent. higher than the British yield. Again, there is no advantage in soil or climate, and it has nothing to do with wages or mechanisation. If our yield had been the same as the Danish yield we should have had an additional 633,000 tons of barley.
  Mr. Hurd: Is the hon. Member giving us comparable figures—one set from the Danish Ministry of Agriculture and the other from the British Ministry of Agriculture—or are they selected figures to prove his argument?
  Mr. Evans: The Danish figures come from the Danish Government and the British figures from "The Times." If the hon. Member has any disagreement with the figures, those are the two sources to check up.
  The Danish yield of sugar beet was 286 cwt. per acre—19 per cent. higher than the British in 1950. The British yield was 991,000 tons less. If the British yield of sugar beet per acre had been equal to the Danish, 20,000 families could have had another 14 lb. of sugar each during 1950. This is the cost of the inefficiency and inertia that has seized on this industry. This game has gone on long enough and it is high time that this House took a very lively and intelligent interest in this subject. We vote the money. This farming business is our business.
  There might be something to be said for those who were standing on their own two feet and who went bankrupt if they failed, but the industry has been spoon-fed by this House. Tens of millions of pounds of subsidies have been given every year and it is our duty to demand that the condition which obtains
  872
  at the moment should be altered very speedily. This industry is in a very parlous state. It is moribund. The other day my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said, at Morecambe:
  "This is the way we must improve our existing farmlands."
  He also said:
  "Our production per acre is absurdly low."
  My goodness, I could hardly get my breath when I read that. I admit that I have been prodding this industry with a metaphorical pitchfork for 2½ years.
  Mr. E. G. Gooch: The hon. Gentleman has not done much.
  Mr. Evans: I shall do. I have got a lot of recruits. I am the most successful recruiting sergeant since the 1914–18 War. There has been nothing like it since Kitchener's First Hundred Thousand. All sorts of people are climbing on the band wagon. There is going to be a very big field for the Cashing-in Stakes. I hope that nobody gets trampled to death. I maintain that farmers occupy a very privileged position in our national life. Faced as we are with a continuing balance of payments problem—when we are wondering how to feed ourselves and keep our factories going—we are entitled to a better return than we get at the moment for the lavish assistance which has been poured into this industry.
  It is about time that the National Farmers' Union hierarchy accepted this and started acting upon it; but they give me the impression that they do not want a discussion of this industry. I was invited to take part in a brains trust in Wolverhampton on 1st December. I went to the Chief Whip and said, "What about it?" He said, "Yes, all right. We will find you a pair." On Sunday I was rung up at my own house in connection with this brains trust, in which I and representatives of the National Farmers' Union were taking part. I was told, "I am sorry; we shall not be able to have you." I said, "Why?" They said, "The National Farmers' Union will not send anybody if you are one of the contestants." I am prepared to be shot down in flames if anything I say is bogus or incorrect. The N.F.U. had said, "If he is there we are not there."
  I offered to write an article for the National Farmers' Union house journal

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  "British Farmer." The editor is a journalist, of course, and he was very much intrigued by this suggestion after my talk of the farmers being feather-bedded. He said, "I will put it in front of the committee on Tuesday." On the Wednesday I had a letter saying that the committee did not meet for another month. There was a man who was bursting to print the article, but he was not allowed to. I met the Secretary and we had a little talk, but I was not permitted to write the article. When I was invited to take part in the B.B.C. "In the News" programme, what happened? Because I said something to which they objected the N.F.U. demanded not only that there should be no re-run on the following Wednesday, as is customary, but that at any time I was invited to the B.B.C. again they should be allowed to send someone along.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Let us get this right. I have been suspicious of this kind of thing and this is concrete evidence, if I have understood what my hon. Friend has said. Is it correct that the National Farmers' Union intervened with regard to a B.B.C. programme because they objected to what had been said?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It would be out of order to pursue that matter in any event on this occasion.
  Mr. Evans: Although I am naturally interested in these personal illustrations, it would be unforgivable for me to go into them except to make my point that the National Farmers' Union hierarchy do not want the spotlight of objectivity shone upon this question of agricultural economics. That is the last thing they want.
  A month ago I talked to 250 farmers at Guildford. They are all right. I talk the same language as the farmers. There is no bad blood between us. They worship the very ground that is coming to me. The fact is that I can talk to the ordinary farmers. I talked to 300 at Worcester. Dozens of them come up to me after I have spoken to them and say, "You are quite right." It is about time we had an inquiry. The 1947 Act has provided very good conditions—I put it no higher—for the farmers and we need an inquiry to examine the weaknesses of the Act.
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  Quite obviously, in the light of the productivity figures, the Act is not doing for the community as a whole what it is doing for the farmers. We must ask such a body as is set up to ascertain whether it would not be a good thing to have a farm-to-farm sales return. We ought to know what every farm is producing. In other words, we ought to know what we are getting for the money which this House and the housewives are providing.
  There are a lot of other things I should like to know—for instance, whether the 40 per cent. preference to owners of agricultural land in the matter of Estate Duty is any longer in the interest of the nation. I do not think it is. In Denmark, where results are so immensely better than they are here, the size of the average dairy farm is 37 acres. Here, we can read in the papers every day about people owning six, seven and eight farms. Of course, they do not have to farm scientifically and energetically; they can farm at half-cock and still get a fat living.
  I am not at all satisfied about the arrangements for getting rid of bad farmers. There are thousands of young men and women coming from the agricultural colleges, and we have second and third sons of farmers—people who cannot get a farm. Farm lands have now reached such a price that only wealthy people who farm as a hobby can afford to buy them.
  In particular, I am not satisfied about the arrangement for getting rid of bad farmers. A friend of mine, who farms 400 acres, told me at Morecambe about a conversation which he had with the deputy chairman of his county agricultural committee, who said to him, "Last year my turnover for the whole farm was £25 an acre. What do you think about that?" My friend replied, "£25? If it were double it would be just tolerable." And this is the man who is deputy chairman of the county agricultural committee which has to decide whether a farmer is efficient or not and whether he should be dispossessed.
  It is time we had an inquiry into this industry, and I make this plea to the House—that we should now consider the question very seriously indeed. I put to the Leader of the Opposition and to my party this question—is it not time that we, as a party, demanded that there should be an inquiry into this very backward industry?
  8.42 p.m.
  Mr. A. C. M. Spearman: I had a feeling, when the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) caught your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that we should hear something about agriculture, and I think those of us who do not agree with his attacks on agriculture can at any rate agree that he does it in a very pleasant way.
  I want to refer to the Socialist Amendment and to the speech of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), although the two may not have a great deal to do with each other. The right hon. Gentleman said that he considered economic planning essential as a matter of principle. I am rather glad that he is not here, because I might embarrass him by telling him how much I agree with him. Indeed, in these days it is so clear that any Government must have an economic plan that that part of his speech was hardly necessary.
  It seems to me that it is the prime duty of a Government today so to arrange its own expenditure, and so to influence the expenditure of the people and the country by its fiscal policy, that the total demand for goods is roughly in line with the total resources of the country. In the pre-war years, the Socialist Government and the Conservative Government entirely failed to get that balance. I think there were very good reasons why both parties failed. They had not the knowledge or the equipment to deal with the problem which we have today. Their failure to get a balance in those pre-war years led to the horrors of unemployment—and, wherever we sit, I think we can all agree that there is no social evil which is more brutal to the people concerned or more shockingly wasteful for our economy.
  What is disturbing to thinking people today is that in their six years of office the Socialist Government failed as completely to get that balance as we did before the war. During those six years, their expenditure and the expenditure of the country was vastly in excess of the resources. Many of the things they did were admirable. I am thinking of the repairing of war losses, defence, improving the conditions of the people, extending the social services.
  I entirely support their attempts to put the Welfare State in a bigger and better position. But where so many of us are
  876
  violently critical of them is, that by their over expenditure, by their methods, they jeopardised that very Welfare State to which they rightly attach so much importance. In each of those years there was an average deficit on the balance of payments of a very large sum indeed; there was not one every year, but there was on the average over the six years.
  I ask the Leader of the Opposition—because his words are always listened to with very great respect on this side of the House, and earlier in the year he expressed, as I remember, some doubts as to the effect expenditure at home had on the balance of payments—whether he would not agree with these two propositions, because they seem to me to be beyond dispute. The first is this; if we in this country, Government and people between us, consume more than the resources available there must be a deficit on the balance of payments. The second proposition is this; that when we have exhausted our own reserves and what we can borrow abroad, then we are no longer able to have a deficit at all, which means that we have got to go short of the things we are importing, and that, as we all know, can mean mass unemployment and starvation.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South was quite right in saying we must have an economic plan, but surely we must also be able to diagnose the situation before we can prescribe the proper remedy. The Socialist Amendment charges the Government with policies—I presume it means deflationary policies—that
  "… threaten a return to the social conditions of the inter-war years."
  In 1931 we had a glut of goods which people wanted, but we did not then know how to give them the purchasing power to deal with it—Socialists and Conservatives both.
  That is not the position today. Today, we have the very opposite position. We have a balance of payments problem we had not got in 1931. Today, we can no longer spend our way out of a slump because we cannot get the raw materials from abroad with which to do it. It seems to me that Socialist doctrine today is just like the prescription of a doctor who sees a patient with high blood pressure and remembers that 20 years ago the patient was very ill with low

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  blood pressure, and he consequently prescribes the remedy suitable to that disease, which is, of course, quite fatal in the current conditions. I believe that the Socialist inflationary policy would be just as fatal as that doctor's remedy, because it is 20 years out of date.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer has done a good bit better. He has got just about a balance. I think he has reason to be very gratified, and I am quite sure is not satisfied. We have to remember that 1952 has been a rather exceptional year. The terms of trade have moved in our favour. They may not continue to do so. There has been great activity in America. I think that that will go on, but it may not. German competition is likely to affect our exports in the future far more than it does today.
  We must not be satisfied with just scraping through. We have to build up a surplus. We have got to release resources which can go to exports and go to build up our factories and to increasing capital investment in our factories, and to make sure that we are in a better position to compete abroad. It is imperative that either we spend less or the Government spend less for us, and I must say that of the two alternatives I believe the country would much prefer the latter.
  I am rather sorry that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has not agreed to set up a committee to see what cuts could be made. I entirely agree with him that quite clearly no sensational economies can be made without a change in policy, and, quite obviously, only my right hon. Friend and his Cabinet colleagues can decide that. I do suggest that in this huge administrative machine which we have today there may be all sorts and kinds of economies which could be got.
  Mr. Percy Shurmer: Such as?
  Mr. Spearman: Let me give one small illustration. In almost every town of any size there are any number of Government offices, for food, labour, National Insurance, and so on. For all I know it might well be possible to handle all those under one office.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: Might I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Inland Revenue office in his own
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  town of Scarborough is in slum conditions, in three separate offices several hundreds of yards apart, and that the ban on capital expenditure prevents any remedy for that and other similar bad conditions?
  Mr. Spearman: I am so well aware of that fact that in the time of the previous Government I pointed out to the relevant Minister how very wasteful it was to have such conditions under which those offices were working, hoping that they would make an improvement in them.
  Sometimes rather a good way of saving money is to spend a bit. I am talking about the need for saving. I believe that might be done. What I am trying to say is that huge economies can only come, I believe, by a change of policy, and that can only come from the Government. I still think that a committee might find great economies. Perhaps I should not say great, but economies which would in themselves make a useful contribution, and which would do something else as well. We can all agree how important it is that the people of the country as a whole should save more. It is extremely discouraging for them to save more when they see all sorts of illustrations of extravagance, even though they do not amount to very much.
  I cannot see how my right hon. Friend, with all the burdens he is carrying, can possibly investigate all these matters. Therefore, it is left to the Treasury. Now, the Treasury are rather cute at preventing fresh expenditure; sometimes I think they go too far in that direction. But they are not nearly so good at cutting down existing expenditure where there are vested interests, and that is why I should like to see my right hon. Friend set up a committee of this sort to assist him in this respect.
  In the last two days many of my hon. Friends have urged that there should be a cut in direct taxation, and that that cut should come about soon. I am fully aware of the great need for more incentive, the great need for more personal savings, because it is only those sorts of savings which produce what we call risk capital, and it is on risk capital that many of the great concerns of this country have been built up. In my submission, it cannot be done by the State, but only by people who are prepared to take risks, and unless there are more savings that cannot happen.

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  I do not believe that we can afford any reductions in direct taxation—I am expressing, I know, an unpopular view to many of those who sit beside me—out of savings in Government expenditure. What we must do is to spend less, and in that way produce a healthier economy by which we can make more, and when we have made more is the time for reducing direct taxation.
  The vital thing is to increase our reserves so that we may have a cushion against all these jolts that this uneasy world does produce and will go on producing for us, and so that we are not on the verge of a crisis all the time. I believe that it is also vital that we should increase our reserves so that we have the capital available for developments in the Commonwealth. By doing that we make not only them and not only ourselves but the whole world richer.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. C. R. Attlee: The hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) asked me a question about the balance of payments during the years of the Labour Government. He asked me, "Did not we import more than we could afford to pay for after the end of the world war? "We did. During the war we acted in close agreement with the United States of America, we sacrificed all our export trade, and we turned over to war all our assets, and it was quite right that we should borrow money to get going again.
  I think that the hon. Member is wrong in thinking that there is something very wrong in that. After all, all the countries of the New World ended up by borrowing. They could not pay back at once. I think that the hon. Member, if I may say so, takes rather too simple a view of international trade. He ought to look further into the whole question of Commonwealth trade and the balance of payments. I only make that statement because he asked me a specific question on that subject; but it is quite true that we did borrow in those immediate years, and I think it perfectly right for us to have done so.
  Mr. Spearman: I entirely agree, of course, that we were entitled to borrow from America. I think that I was one of six only in my party who supported the right hon. Gentleman in the Lobby on
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  that occasion. What I am talking about is something quite different. I am saying that throughout the whole time of the Socialist Government there was an enormously greater expenditure than the resources of the country warranted. I think that I remember his saying at the beginning of this year that cuts in Government expenditure had no bearing on the balance of payments, and I hoped that he would correct that and tell me that I was quite wrong in my recollection.
  Mr. Attlee: That depends on exactly what the question involves—whether it is purely an internal matter of finance or whether it is something to do with importation from abroad.
  We have come to the end of two days' debate on the official Amendment of the Opposition. I do not intend to say anything very much about those extremely ill-judged Measures with regard to transport and iron and steel which the Government are introducing. I think that they are quite irrelevant to the major matter which faces this country. We have had three Government speeches, and we have had no answer yet to the complaint which is voiced in our Amendment that the Government have no positive and effective proposals for dealing with the serious economic position of the country. That is the burden of our complaint.
  We had a characteristically conciliatory speech from the Minister of Labour, dealing very largely with the unemployment position. I hope that the optimistic views of the right hon. and learned Gentleman are justified, but the trend is disturbing, and, as he knows, there is a certain amount of concealed unemployment in short-time working. We are particularly disturbed about unemployment at the docks. I take a particular interest in that matter because I met the problem in my earlier days, and I know what it means. I also know what the docks labour scheme has meant to East London, South-East London and Liverpool; it has been a revolution in the lives of the people. I should be very sorry if anything happened to it.
  The serious rise in unemployment in the docks indicates a falling off of world trade and a laying up of ships. There is much more in it than the immediate effect; there is also the effect of its bringing unemployment in the future. I

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  hope that the qualified optimism of the right hon. and learned Gentleman—he said, quite rightly, that we have difficult times ahead—about the trend of the unemployment figures may be justified, but he will agree that there was in his speech no suggestion of a long-term policy.
  Nor did we get anything more from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour. I was very encouraged at one moment because he said, boldly, that the Government had a plan to achieve a new and more stable basis for productivity and full employment. The hon. Gentleman was then getting towards the end of his speech and I sat up hoping I was to hear something. But I was bitterly disappointed, for all I got was three platitudes, one about achieving efficiency, another about holding down the cost of living and a third about working as a team. There was no plan at all.
  I still had some hopes when the Chancellor of the Exchequer came along, but when he proceeded to devote so much time to attacking the Opposition on irrelevant points I knew that we should not get anything very constructive because it was, clearly, a diversionary attack. The right hon. Gentleman naturally wanted, first, to encourage the spirits on his own side and he wanted to put up a good show because he knew he had nothing very constructive to put before us on major economic policy.
  The Chancellor had also to face the fact that practically all the speeches from the back benches had been critical of him. His hon. Friends were disappointed. They had passed a resolution at Scarborough. I understand it is very rare for a resolution like that to be passed at a Conservative conference. I noticed that at Guildhall last night the Prime Minister talked about "the glacial calm of a Soviet election." A Conservative conference generally has something of the glacial calm of a Communist conference in Russia. I believe that in Russia the resolution always goes through with a 98 per cent. majority, but at a Conservative conference it goes through with a 100 per cent. majority and is not discussed at all. Perhaps his hon. Friends were also recalling some remarks by the Prime Minister about Conservative programmes and resolutions.
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  We were all glad to hear of the better position of the exchanges today, but the Chancellor knows very well that this is only a breathing space. I am quite prepared to give him credit for what he has done, but he knows quite well that this is very largely due to extraneous circumstances. We have had a change in the terms of trade which are favourable to him. In previous years we have had a change in the terms of trade which were against this country. If the right hon. Gentleman had happened to strike particular conditions like that he would have been up against it.
  In the time of the Labour Government we had these questions of balance of payments constantly with us. From time to time there were improvements and there were set backs. We also at one time achieved a balance, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows quite well that there is still this fundamental weakness of our position, our lack of adequate reserves and our dependence on our foreign trade. He knows, too, how precarious the position is. There is the growth of competition from Germany and Japan, and industrialisation going ahead in the newer countries. These have been mentioned in a number of speeches, and it was recognised by everybody that that would mean competition for our exports.
  One has to face the fact that it is going to be more difficult to sell our goods abroad, and there is also the preponderant position in world economy of the United States of America. We all know that a very slight recession in the United States of America may have very serious, wide and deep repercussions in the rest of the world. The hon. Member for Hitchin (Mr. Fisher) made that point in his speech.
  How are we to meet it? We have our breathing space it is true, but we have had such a breathing space before. The question is how long will it last and what are our long-term policies to meet the situation. We all welcome the decision of the Government to carry further the policy of the Labour Government in increasing home agriculture. We have got to do that. My hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) was speaking about agriculture and about expanding our products. All are agreed that a great deal has been

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  done for agriculture, and we are fully entitled to ask the farming community for full production. The right hon. Gentleman has more or less put a target there to encourage an increase. I should like to know a little more definitely what it is hoped to accomplish in the growing of food for ourselves in this little island.
  I do not think that the Government hope to make us self-sufficing. We shall need to import food from abroad, and there is a threatened world shortage. The Chancellor of the Exchequer today did not deal at all with the major problems of where we are to get our food. We heard nothing about developing new sources of food supplies, which, I believe, is vitally important. We have to take a full share in developing the backward areas of the world, and equally important is the development of new markets for our products. I do not know what the Government's policy on that is, but perhaps the Leader of the House, when he speaks, will give us something definite.
  There has been running through all this debate a good deal of talk about the Commonwealth conference. I am all for having Commonwealth conferences, but hon. Members must not imagine that it is always so easy to get agreement. One often hears a great deal of talk on the lines of, "Let us all get together and have preferences," and so forth. Other Members of the Commonwealth have their own views and they have to be reconciled to ours if we are to get together.
  I do not know how far the Chancellor of the Exchequer is proceeding on the line of development, but one or two Members behind him seemed to me to argue what was almost a kind of closed Imperial Preference system. I do not think we shall ever get that with the Commonwealth, because the Commonwealth have their ties with the rest of the world. Those views were put forward by the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air Commodore Harvey) and the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams).
  I should like to ask the Leader of the House to say something about Government policy on preferences, and about the Government's general attitude to the liberalisation of trade. We really have not had anything on those vital points
  884
  of policy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer today seemed inclined to rest on the position as it is. He said nothing about any concerted policy with other countries and with the United States of America. I would like to know what is being done.
  The real danger is not just coming from this country, but from the position of other countries. The right hon. Gentleman was rather inclined to sneer at some of my hon. Friends who had mentioned the danger of deflation. There is a grave danger. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was forced to restrict our imports. I think he had to do it, as an immediate policy, but all the other countries who have these exchange difficulties restrict their imports. We are reduced to the position of all hoping to export more and to import less. That is a hopeless position, and can only lead to a general slowing down of international trade leading to a deflationary position. What is the policy internationally?
  In our discussion today, references have been made to the falling off in production and it has been explained that the falling off was more in some industries than in others. There is no doubt that there has been a slowing down of production. In his Budget, the Chancellor stressed the need for an increase of production. His whole Budget was based on that; indeed, it was called "an incentive Budget." It will be very disappointing, when an incentive Budget has been passed, if the result has been a falling off. The incentive has somehow failed.
  I say, therefore, that our Amendment is fully justified by the fact that in no speech have we had any clear long-term policy for dealing with the fundamental difficulties of the position. I am not suggesting for a moment that the position is easy. It is a long-term policy. We were not content at any time when things got better. We had to work on long-term policies, always taking short-term emergency action just as the Chancellor of the Exchequer. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman does not want to repeat his interruption, perhaps it was not worth saying after all. I am not in the least disturbed by the suggestion that we had to meet a number of crises. We did, and any Government in those difficult years would have had to meet those crises.

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  In this discussion what has been very notable has not only been what has been said from the Front Bench but what has been said from the back benches. The hon. and gallant Member for Totnes (Brigadier Rayner) spoke the mind of many hon. Gentlemen opposite. He talked of the massive Welfare State and said that we cannot support this enormous edifice which we have erected. What is the basis of the Welfare State? The basis of the Welfare State is this: that all our citizens should be adequately fed, clothed, housed in sickness and in health and at times when there is not work available, and the children should be educated. We believe that all should make their contribution to the community and all should have the opportunity so to do.
  We regard this as the right and necessary basis for a civilised community. The trouble about the hon. and gallant Member and those who support him is that they seem to regard this not as fundamental but as a kind of luxury which can be afforded only by a very wealthy community, as a kind of unnecessary though possibly desirable addition to the normal. I am afraid that is because he has a 19th century mind. [HON. MEMBERS: "Eighteenth."] No, I think it is a characteristically 19th century mind.
  In the 19th century we had a highly developed civilisation with a very big, well-to-do section living at a high standard of life with every kind of civilised amenity, and we boasted of the great position of Great Britain in leading the world. But that civilisation and that well-to-do class was supported on a basis of low wages, long hours, sweated labour, foul slums, ill-health, unemployment and destitution.
  Brigadier Rayner: May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that I did not say we could not support a Welfare State, but that we could not support it unless we worked a good deal harder. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tally-ho!"] This is the second time I have been misrepresented by the Front Bench opposite over a simple speech. I was harping on hard work—[Laughter.] Mr. Speaker, this noise comes from a lot of right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite who have guilty consciences in that they know that for 50 years it has been—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order, order.
  Mr. Attlee: The hon. and gallant Member is not now explaining the point, but going off on to some other point altogether. That did seem quite normal to the majority of people in the 19th century.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Including the right hon. Gentleman's ancestors.
  Mr. Attlee: I quite agree, but it is my hope that in the 20th century we have got away from those ancestral notions. [An HON. MEMBER: "You have."] Yes, the trouble is that there are some atavistic people who have not. It seemed quite normal to the majority of the ruling classes. I knew those times quite well because in 1931 the same people with the same ideas were in power and they accepted that basis of society.
  In our view that basis was wrong, and the Labour Party came into existence to abolish it and to right that wrong. At any time during the 19th century those conditions could have been changed if the well-to-do people had been willing to change their standard of life, but they had a different standard of values.
  Today, if we have to retrench, if we have to have lower standards, there are many things that ought to go before we touch the basis of the Welfare State. We have, to quote the hon. and gallant Member for Totnes, a simply enormous edifice of things. Many of them are very desirable, but they are less essential than the standard of life of the masses of the people. In the war we had to forgo many things. Luxuries were unobtainable. We had to make do with old clothes, smaller newspapers, fewer amusements and motor cars, less advertising and duller food. In the war, that Government of all parties put first things first. We put the basic strength of the people first.
  When I hear people saying that we must retrench, it so often means that the first thing to be retrenched is the standard of life of the workers. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I have seen that happen fairly often. It certainly happened when we had the various reports of all kinds and the Geddes axe. Those people never say that we ought to sweep away all the mass of waste in the private sector. They always talk about waste in the Government sector, and never about

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  whether we ought not to concentrate on more essential things for all of us. There are many people who have never really accepted the new dispensation. It comes rather from what the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said he had—a split mind.
  The hon. Member for Totnes was a distinguished soldier. He would never have thought of putting the amenities of the officers' mess before the needs of his men. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No, he would not. It was always the rule in the fighting Services that the men come first. But there is the split mind. I do not think the hon. and gallant Member does it as a Tory Member of Parliament. He does just the opposite, always hitting at these particular things.
  I hope that the Government will resist the suggestion that has been made from many quarters of a Geddes axe. All sorts of follies were committed in the recommendations of the Geddes Committee and, unfortunately, they were accepted. I remember talking in the House—the other speaker in the debate was Lord Courthope—when we were discussing the shortage of timber. There was a very great shortage of timber during the war, and one of the economies of the Geddes axe to save a few thousand pounds was the destruction of several million seedling trees. [An HON. MEMBER: "Fifty million."] That is entirely typical of what happens when one puts in a Geddes and gives him an axe.
  We are not in favour of waste—we are all for economy; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, quite rightly, that major economies come from policy. The hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby was not quite up to date in suggesting that we could not do anything without having somebody from outside. There is a very effective division in the Treasury—the O. and M. Division—that is constantly at work pruning and cutting down unnecessary waste, and this ought to go on. But I do not believe in the setting up of spectacular committees, if possible, with a rather narrow-minded businessman at the head, to make all kinds of slashes. It only results in follies in which great waste is made from the point of view of saving a few miserable pounds. I give this warning, because even the Chancellor
  888
  of the Exchequer fell for this in that ridiculous little saving of two or three people in the British Museum.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Law) made an interesting speech, in which he said that, wherever there was weakness, it was due to heavy Government expenditure or to the heavy load of taxation, but he did not proceed to give an example. He said that we in this country had attained the peaks of scientific achievement, but that the Americans, the Germans and the Japanese developed them. That is precisely not a failure of Government but a failure of private enterprise, and that was not occurring just when taxation was heavy. The outstanding case was that of aniline dyes, many years ago.
  The fact is that Government expenditure on research has been very great, both through the D.S.I.R. and the universities. I think that the Labour Government devoted more to research than anybody else. The trouble has been in getting industry to take up and use the fruits of scientific research. That really was the complaint of the right hon. Member for Haltemprice, who just killed his own arguments.
  The money used for Government research would be just wasted if left to fructify in the pockets of unenterprising businessmen. I think we need far more research, and we need far more use of the results of that research. I think we have to turn our minds a good deal to seeing that we do make use of the very expensive equipment that has to be used in industry today.
  I come now to the main point of our Amendment, which states that the Government are occupying themselves, first of all, with irrelevant matters, and that no possible purpose is to be served by changing the structure of iron and steel at the present time. It is no pretence that the industry is not going ahead perfectly well. There is all the difference between that and the action of the Labour Government in nationalising the mines. The latter had been crying out to be done through years and years of neglect.
  We next say that the Government, while they have obtained a breathing space, have so far revealed no sign of having any clear policy for dealing with the position of this country, and our economic position does not stand by

  889
  itself. It is bound up with world conditions, but we have not yet found that the Government are taking the lead in dealing with the world problem, because it is a world problem of maintaining supplies of food for the world and of extending the standard of life everywhere, on which this country's future depends as a great trading and exporting nation.
  We say—and this is abundantly justified by the speeches delivered from the back benches opposite—that there is a danger that the reactionery elements of the Tory Party will bring us back to the days which we remember so well.
  9.29 p.m.
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crook-shank): The privilege falls to me, for the second time in this Parliament, to wind up the debate on the Address, and to follow the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and to deal with the Amendment which the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition moved yesterday.
  I think there is no doubt on one point—that hon. Members on both sides of the House would wish me to pay a small but well deserved tribute to the one maiden speech in this debate, and to congratulate the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Thomson). I think that one of the most likeable things about the House is that it has a very short memory for bad speeches but a long memory for a good one. The hon. Member will realise that many of us will remember his speech on those grounds, because he was both competent and fluent, and I am quite sure that he will make many other contributions to this House.
  It has been indeed a very curious debate on the Address. In fact, I think I might say that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition hardly sounded like a really all-out aggressive attack against the Government of the day. There may very well be a reason for that. After all, last year's debate followed the significant decision of the electors at the General Election. On this occasion it follows a very much smaller but perhaps significant decision of the electors at both Cleveland and Wycombe. Whatever special local factors may have played some part in those by-elections, one thing is quite clear—that by no conceivable stretch of the imagination could the result represent a vote of confidence in Her Majesty's Opposition.
  890
  This has been a long debate over the usual six days, and many subjects have been raised both last week and since we got on to this Amendment. It is perhaps interesting to mark the changes in our Parliamentary life as they occur. I wonder if it occurred to anybody else except me—I expect it did—how strange it is that now we find this great debate of the year mixed up with the inevitable mobility of Ministers. We had a foreign debate on the eve of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Minister having to go to New York. We had a debate on Colonial affairs on the very morrow of the return of my other right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies from East Africa. Twenty, 30 or 40 years ago that sort of thing would have been quite impossible—[An HON. MEMBER: "When are you going?"] [Laughter.] I am very sorry, Mr. Speaker. I hope you got that joke, I did not.
  All through the debate there really have been no aggressive attacks. This is the great debate of the year in which anyone can raise any topic in which he or she is interested. The rules of order as to what is in order or out of order are practically non-existent as far as subject matter is concerned, and it is very strange to think of some of the things that have not been talked about, which I should have thought would have been prominent in the minds of some hon. Members.
  It is quite true that we have had a speech on the agricultural position, as seen by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans), but that subject has not been touched upon by many. I thought that corporal punishment was the one thing which was exciting everybody, but we have not had a series of speeches on that subject. Food has been mentioned quite casually. I heard the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann), and the subject came into other speeches.
  Matters of health, and particularly the cuts in the health service, were prominent about a year ago in this House, but they did not come into this debate at all. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition gave us a line on the first day, because he said that there was "not much" in the Gracious Speech. I could not make out the point of that remark—whether it meant that he wanted more Bills and more legislation. If he does, he

  891
  is the only Member of this House who is panting for that. As a matter of fact, there is a full programme of work before us during the coming year. But Governments are not judged purely by legislative output. I think my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade put it very well the other night when he said:
  "It will be in the field of administration and in the application of economic policies that we shall chiefly affect our national future."—(OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 168.]
  Mr. R. R. Stokes: Who wrote that one?
  Mr. Crookshank: He wrote it himself. He has not got a ghost writer.
  One of the changes which we have to note is that a good deal of the legislation which now has to be brought forward, by whatever Government is in office, is what is called of a non-contentious kind but which seems to be extremely controversial. For example, looking back over the last month we had great debates on the Visiting Forces Bill which was, after all, merely an agreement which had been passed by our predecessors and in the party political sense was hardly contentious. But a great deal of the time of the House has been, and I dare say will again be, employed in that way.
  The complaint in the Amendment is that we have not got a whole lot of itemised proposals with regard to our economic and financial policy. I would put it in this way. We are building this year—or we are setting out to build, because these are early days yet—on certain solid foundations laid last year. We first of all made a start in restoring freedom. Secondly, there has been a start in the Budget of my right hon. Friend in lightening the tax burden and giving greater incentives to work. Thirdly, in that Budget we helped those hardest hit by rising prices; and fourthly, there has been a marked slowing down in the pace at which the cost of living has been rising. Those are four solid cornerstones on which to build this year after clearing the ground of the nearly bankrupt estate which we inherited.
  The mood of the House during the last few days has been to show that the solution of the nation's economic problems is what is really uppermost in the minds of
  892
  hon. Members. It is true to say that economically—if I may take this analogy—we hold difficult cards. Our whole future as a great people depends on playing a very difficult hand well, and it is not only the Government who have to share in that burden.
  It is complained that there is "no positive and effective proposal" to deal with the economic situation. Whether any proposal is going to be effective only time can prove. It is no use using that adjective in this context. We cannot say beforehand that what we do is or is not going to be effective, but I think that what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor was saying this afternoon gives the key, that whatever proposal it is, it has to be very flexible in these days.
  I do not want to elaborate, because so much has been said on that subject already, but let the House think back on the textile situation as it has been during the last year. There were "no effective or positive proposals" about that in the late King's Speech this time last year. On the other hand, when the difficulties became serious effective and positive action was taken and, without it having been forecast 12 months ago, there is a very startling drop in textile unemployment, as has been recorded in speech after speech today.
  The really big, positive and effective proposal enshrined in the Queen's Speech is the reference to the forthcoming Commonwealth Conference. This is the big thing—to use a colloquialism—because upon it so much depends not only for ourselves but, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, it leads up to further discussions with the other countries in the sterling area and the free world and, from there, to discussions with the United States of America. But at the moment one cannot lay down details. After all, we shall then be dealing with a different Administration to that which is at present in power in the United States, and it would therefore be most premature and unwise to elaborate that matter any further.
  I can assure hon. and right hon. Members that the preparations which are being made for that Conference are on a scale and in such detail as I do not think has ever occurred before on such an important occasion. We have had here the officials of all those Governments who

  893
  are to be represented here at the end of the month, and great study has been given to all these problems. That is the answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question whether we were concerting policies with the Commonwealth and United States. We are leading up to doing that, but what would be the good of having a conference if everybody had settled beforehand what they had to do?
  Mr. Gaitskell: May we take it from those remarks that Her Majesty's Government are not going to put forward any positive proposals whatever?
  Mr. Crookshank: Not at all. The right hon. Gentleman cannot take anything of the sort; but he can take it that I am not going to announce here and now what those proposals are. As my right hon. Friend said, the objective is to secure the greatest possible expansion of multilateral trade throughout the world. That is the objective to which we are directing ourselves.
  We have brought our accounts into balance during the last year. During the debate a great deal has been said in an endeavour, apparently, to make out that this was more or less achieved by a change in the terms of trade. I think it was the right hon. Member for Leeds. South (Mr. Gaitskell) who employed that argument. My right hon. Friend dealt with that point. As far as can be calculated, for the first half of 1952 only about one third of the improvement can be put down to that cause.
  The second suggestion which was made by the right hon. Gentleman and others was that the balance of trade improvement was due to a reduction in stocks, or a cessation of stock building. The right hon. Gentleman quoted a figure of £387 million in 1951. On further reflection, I think that he will find that that figure is irrelevant to the balance of payments question, because it includes work in progress as well as stock changes. [HON. MEMBERS: "He said so."] I am saying so now.
  Thirdly, it was alleged that a good deal of this improvement was due to that fall in production. The right hon. Gentleman argued that the fall in the production index of 3½ per cent. in place of a rise of 2½ per cent. represented something like £150 million on our imports, but the annual rate of raw material imports in the
  894
  first half of this year was £1,600 million, and 3½ per cent. of that is only about £50 million. That is nowhere near £150 million. [Interruption.] I am merely pointing out that the right hon. Gentleman's figures were not quite correct and do not account for what he thought they did.
  Of course, it obviouly has to be admitted that some part of the improvement in the balance of trade has been due to the fall in imports. That has happened in other countries, with the result that our exports have also dropped. I think one can say that last year has been a period of re-orientation in many parts of the sterling world and a basic consolidation for the future, but one can hope, now, that it has finished and that we can go forward into a more expansive situation. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Beresford Craddock) put that quite well the other day when he said there was a limit to the usefulness of a policy of restriction.
  Now we have to move on into an expansionist world. I will not repeat the sombre warning which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade had to give us—that we were not out of the wood and that there were great difficulties still ahead of us—I am glad to say that the fact remains—and again one does not want to exaggerate; I should be the last person to do so—that the trade figures for October are encouraging. We do not want to exaggerate the figures of one month; we cannot base everything on one month; but the trade figures for October are available tonight and it might interest the House to know what they are.
  The provisional figures show exports at £218,500,000, an increase of nearly 10 per cent. in the daily rate compared with the third quarter, while the exports to North America in October were higher than in any post-war month—£28,600,000. Do not let us exaggerate those figures, but they are satisfactory for that month.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Could we have the import figures?
  Mr. Crookshank: I have not got them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Because I was dealing with exports. Last night the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) gave us a most interesting speech in which, by a wonderful performance, if I may say so, he tried to build up a series

  895
  of figures by which he hoped, at the end, to show that his forecast of one million persons out of work in eight weeks time would be proved correct. He knows that production figures are partly seasonal and that they have a tendency to up and down, like a thermometer, sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly. Of course, it is quite true that they have dropped from the high figure of 123 in March this year, but this is not the only time they have dropped from that high figure. The figure of 123 was the figure in November, 1950. There was a dropping away, then the figures went up again, and that became the figure in November, 1951; then it dropped away again, and it once more became the figure in March this year.
  The right hon. Gentleman was seeking to bring out a whole series of calculations and figures—as I could on this point. For example, I could say, if I wanted—because it would be correct—that between June and August in 1950 the production drop was 15 points, in 1951 during those months it was 18 points, and this year it was 12 points. But I am not saying that that proves anything at all; I am merely saying that it is rather rash to extend one's researches too far and to try to build up too many arguments upon the sort of figures which the right hon. Gentleman was using last night.
  But there are encouraging points. As my right hon. Friend said this afternoon, in October this year, as compared with last year, the production of steel was up by 9 per cent., the production of the engineering, shipbuilding and electrical group was up by 5½ per cent.
  Mr. William Blyton: Nationalisation.
  Mr. Crookshank: That is the increase compared with this time last year. We must not all be pessimistic all the time. If only right hon. and hon. Gentlemen had seen the faces which we saw during the last two days while the ballot was going on upstairs. I would remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that the most spectacular fall in production took place in the months of January and February, 1947, when it fell by 21 per cent. [Interruption.] Yes. Let us take the moral. We recovered from that. There is no reason in the world to be so gloomy
  896
  now, and to say that because there has been a production fall in the last two or three months we are not going to recover again.
  The decline, of course, in production has not been over the whole field. Oddly enough, where it has increased most, and where productivity has gone up most, has not been mentioned in the debate at all—housing. Last year there were few speakers on those benches opposite who did not mention houses in the six days' debate. There were few who did not deride our target of 300,000. Why this extraordinary reticence now? Are they not pleased? Apparently not. No praise, no thanks—no thanks for anybody. I can quite imagine their not praising or thanking the Government, or the Minister for Housing and Local Government, but they might have spared a word of praise for the building operatives.
  September was the best post-war month for the completion of houses. The completion figure was 22,323—5,000 more than in the previous year. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) did a broadcast at the end of September. I heard it. I do not know whether anybody else did, but I did—over the radio. I am very glad I did, because I can correct him now. He said of the Minister of Housing and Local Government that he had been lucky because he had had such good weather this year, and that good weather helped building. Yes, that would be all right if it were not for the fact that the weather was not good. I have had the figures about what the rainfall at Kew was, and it turns out that in the month of September, which was the record month for housebuilding, the rainfall was half as much again as the average for any other year. So I think that the right hon. Gentleman must review his next broadcast.
  Something has been said about factory building and a cut in that. It is quite true that there was a reduction—
  Mr. Gaitskell: What about the schools?
  Mr. Crookshank: Schools: the amount of work done this year will be higher than last year. Factory building had to be reduced at the end of last year because of the steel shortage. [Interruption.] Well, if they had no steel they could not build the factories. That is the point.
  Mr. Shurmer: The Government preferred houses to factories.
  Mr. Crookshank: I suppose the hon. Gentleman would rather have had the men unemployed and doing nothing. The value of factory building under construction at the end of the third quarter last year was £173 million; this year it is £141 million. But the position with regard to steel has very greatly improved—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—thanks to the Prime Minister's assistance—and there are indications that when the year is out the investment in the industrial field as a whole, which, of course, covers fuel and power and transport and steel and the manufacturing industries, will turn out to be at least as great as and possibly greater than last year's.
  Now, I have got very near to the end of my speech, but I will just say this. During this debate there has been made great stress about unemployment and the fear of unemployment, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland, at the beginning of this debate, said it had doubled during the last year. It is not so. It was 1.3 per cent. last year. It is 1.9 per cent. this year. No kind of calculation will make that double. Double 1.3 is 2.6, and I hope hon. Members opposite will realise that 2.6 is very nearly 2½, which is a figure very dear to the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland.
  The trouble about this, of course, is that the Opposition are really not serious in this Amendment. They should not have gone back into the past and tried to raise the bogies of the inter-war years. They are the last people who should be doing that. What was their unemployment record? What is all this talk about bringing down the standard of living? The right hon. Member for Leeds, South himself in his broadcast in March last year said that
  "the standard of living in this country could not possibly go up owing to the defence programme."
  Mr. Gaitskell indicated dissent.
  Mr. Crookshank: It is no good the right hon. Gentleman shaking his head because he said so; that it was certainly not going to be possible during the next few years. Their own record in these matters, if we want to dig around, shows what happened when they took office in
  898
  1929 and when they left it in 1931. If they want to play that game, we can play it, too. But let me remind them that, whereas at the last General Election they got a great number of votes with this war-mongering bogy, when those right hon. Gentlemen opposite knew at that time that by their own plans the atom bomb was within a few months of being exploded and never lifted a finger to stop the nonsense that was talked on their platforms. The 1950 Election was the one which they tried to fight on this very unemployment bogy, and they lost 194 seats. If we are to start that, we shall have a great deal to say, but not tonight.
  Tonight we are about to pass the Address of thanks for the Gracious Speech. That address will go forward unamended. It will be the thanks of this House to Her Majesty for graciously coming to the House of Lords in the way she did and for delivering that speech. There will be no Amendment. But if there were to be an Amendment the one which would be carried in this House and in the country would not be this one, with its red tail going back to what happened between the wars. It would be something quite different.
  Were there to be an Amendment it would be that, "neither this House nor this country has any confidence in Her Majesty's Opposition." And why? According to the "Daily Herald" because there is "a party within the party"; and according to "Tribune" because it has not at present got a "dynamic left-wing policy." But according to me because that party brought this country to the brink of national bankruptcy; because that party, to use their own words, neither positively nor effectively have supported the harsh measures which their successors had to introduce to cope with that great inheritance; because that party seeks to magnify all points of political controversy. In short, if as a result of this debate there were to be any vote of censure at all it would not be against those who sit on these benches, but on them.
  Question put, "That those words be there added."
  The House divided: Ayes, 279; Noes, 313.

  Division No. 1.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Adams, Richard

  Gibson, C. W.

  Monslow, W.

  Albu, A. H.

  Glanville, James

  Moody, A. S.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Gooch, E. G.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Morley, R.

  Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell)

  Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale)

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mort, D. L.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Grey, C. F.

  Moyle, A.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Mulley, F. W.

  Baird, J.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Murray, J. D.

  Balfour, A.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Nally, W.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Bartley, P.

  Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  O'Brien, T.

  Bence, C. R.

  Hannan, W.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Benn, Wedgwood

  Hardy, E. A.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Benson, G.

  Hargreaves, A.

  Orbach, M.

  Beswick, F.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

  Oswald, T.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Hastings, S.

  Padley, W. E.

  Blackburn, F.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Paget, R. T.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Boardman, H.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Pannell, Charles

  Bowles, F. G.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Holman, P.

  Parker, J.

  Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

  Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth)

  Paton, J.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Peart, T. F.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Hoy, J. H.

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Poole, C. C.

  Burke, W. A.

  Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

  Popplewell, E.

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Porter, G.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Carmichael, J.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Rankin, John

  Champion, A. J.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Reeves, J.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

  Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Reid, William (Camlachie)

  Clunie, J.

  Janner, B.

  Rhodes, H.

  Coldrick, W.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Richards, R.

  Collick, P. H.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Cove, W. G.

  Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Jones, David (Hartlepool)

  Ross, William

  Daines, P.

  Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Royle, C.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Schofield, S. (Barnsley)

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.)

  Keenan, W.

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Kenyon, C.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W

  Short, E. W.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Kinley, J.

  Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

  Deer, G.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Slater, J.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Lewis, Arthur

  Smith Norman (Nottingham, S.)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Snow, J. W.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Edelman, M.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Edwards, John (Brighouse)

  Logan, D. G.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Steele, T.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

  McInnes, J.

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

  McLeavy, F.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Ewart, R.

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Stross, Dr. Barnett

  Fernyhough, E.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Field, W. J.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Swingler, S. T.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Finch, H. J.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Follick, M.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

  Foot, M. M.

  Manuel, A. C.

  Thomas, David (Aberdare)

  Forman, J. C.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Freeman, John (Watford)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  900

  901

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Wells, William (Walsall)

  Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)

  Thurtle, Ernest

  West, D. G.

  Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

  Timmons, J.

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Tomney, F.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Usborne, H. C.

  Wigg, George

  Wyatt, W. L.

  Viant, S. P.

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Yates, V. F.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K

  Watkins, T. E.

  Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)

  Williams, David (Neath)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Weitzman, D.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)

  Mr. Bowden and Mr. Pearson.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  NOES

  Aitken, W. T.

  Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

  Horobin, I. M.

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  De la Bère, Sir Rupert

  Howard, Greville (St. Ives)

  Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

  Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.

  Digby, S. Wingfield

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

  Ashton, H. (Chelmsford)

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Hurd, A. R.

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)

  Donner, P. W.

  Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)

  Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Baker, P. A. D.

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm

  Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

  Baldock, Lt.-Comdr. J. M.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Drewe, G.

  Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

  Banks, Col. C.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas (Richmond)

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Barber, Anthony

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Barlow, Sir John

  Duthie, W. S.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Baxter, A. B.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M.

  Jones, A. (Hall Green)

  Beach, Maj. Hicks

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Beamish, Maj. Tufton

  Erroll, F. J.

  Kaberry, D.

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Fell, A.

  Keeling, Sir Edward

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)

  Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lambton, Viscount

  Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston)

  Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Bennett, William (Woodside)

  Fort, R.

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Foster, John

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Birch, Nigel

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

  Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)

  Black, C. W.

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt.- Hon. A. T.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)

  Lindsay, Martin

  Bossom, A. C.

  Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

  Linstead, H. N.

  Bowen, E. R.

  Garner Evans, E. H.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Glyn, Sir Ralph

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)

  Braine, B. R.

  Godber, J. B.

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N. W.)

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Gower, H. R.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Gridley, Sir Arnold

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

  Browne, Jack (Gevan)

  Grimond, J.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Bullard, D. G.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  McAdden, S. J.

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  McCallum, Major D.

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Harden, J. R. E.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Hare, Hon. J. H.

  Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)

  Campbell, Sir David

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Carson, Hon. E.

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Harvey, Air Cdre A. V. (Macclesfield)

  Maclay, Rt. Hon John

  Channon, H.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Maclean, Fitzroy

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

  Hay, John

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Macpherson, Maj. Niall (Dumfries)

  Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L.

  Heath, Edward

  Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Cole, Norman

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

  Colegate, W. A.

  Higgs, J. M. C.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton)

  Markham, Major S. F.

  Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Marples, A. E.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Maude, Angus

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich)

  Maudling, R.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Holt, A. F.

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr S. L. C.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Hope Lord John

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Hopkinson, Rt. Hon Henry

  Mellor, Sir John

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  902

  903

  Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Robertson, Sir David

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas

  Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Teeling, W.

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Russell, R. S.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)

  Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

  Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

  Nield, Basil (Chester)

  Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Tilney, John

  Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Touche, Sir Gordon

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)

  Turton, R. H.

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Scott, R. Donald

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Odey, G. W.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Shepherd, William

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Vosper, D. F.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Wade, D. W.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare)

  Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone)

  Osborne, C.

  Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

  Walker-Smith, D. C.

  Partridge, E.

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Soames, Capt. C.

  Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Speir, R. M.

  Watkinson, H. A.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)

  White, Baker (Canterbury)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Stevens, G. P.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)

  Williams, Sir Herbert (Croyden, E.)

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Wills, G.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Storey, S.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Trure)

  Raikes, H. V.

  Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  York, C.

  Redmayne, M.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Summers, G. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

  Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

  Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)

  Mr. Butcher.

  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:—
  Most Gracious Sovereign,
  We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
  To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

  SUPPLY
  House, Tomorrow, to resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.—[Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.]
  WAYS AND MEANS
  House, Tomorrow, to resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.—[Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.]

  PUBLIC PETITIONS
  Select Committee appointed to whom shall be referred all Petitions presented to the House, with the exception of such
  904
  as are deposited in the Private Bill Office, such Committee to classify and prepare abstracts of the same in such form and manner as shall appear to them best suited to convey to the House all requisite information respecting their contents, and to report the same from time to time to the House; Reports of the Committee to set forth, in respect of each Petition, the number of signatures which are accompanied by addresses, and which are written on sheets headed in every case by the Prayer of the Petition, or on the back of such sheets, provided that on every sheet after the first the Prayer may be reproduced in print or by other mechanical process; such Committee to have power to direct the printing in extenso of such Petitions, or of such parts of Petitions, as shall appear to require it:
  Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport, Mr. Hargreaves, Mr. Hector Hughes, Dr. King, Mr. Lambert, Colonel Lancaster, Major Legge-Bourke, Commander Maitland, Mr. McGhee, Mr. John Morrison, Mr. Pargiter, Mr. Joseph T. Price, Mr. Raikes, Colonel Thornton-Kemsley and Mr. Watkins:
  Power to send for persons, papers and records:
  Three to be the Quorum.—[Mr. Studholme.]

  POLICE OFFICERS' WIDOWS (PENSIONS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Studholme.]
  10.16 p.m.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: I am pleased that I have secured the Adjournment tonight, because I want to raise a subject which is of particular concern to the people at this time. I have been endeavouring to secure this opportunity because, nine days ago, all of us, and particularly the citizens of the great borough of Croydon which I have the honour, with two colleagues in this House, to represent, was shocked to learn from the radio and the Press that, the night before, Police Constable Sidney George Miles, attached to Z Division, had been shot and killed while endeavouring to carry out his duty. The Home Secretary and myself, only a few days ago, had to attend the tragic funeral held in the Croydon Parish Church.
  It therefore follows that the subject that I want to raise with the Home Secretary is that of the position of widows of police officers who were killed in the execution of their duty. Before coming to the specific facts which I want to put to the Home Secretary it is right that I should make some general observations, about which I feel very strongly indeed.
  I cannot forget that it was Parliament, in its wisdom or otherwise, that decided against corporal punishment for criminals. I do not think I am wrong in saying that if such a vital issue were discussed again in this House—I fully realise that the subject is a most contentious one—it might well be that a different decision would be reached by Parliament. All hon. Members have been inundated with letters from constituents who are concerned about this vital subject. This is because the country has unfortunately been experiencing a disturbing period of violent crime. I hope that Parliament will have an opportunity to debate this important matter, when the feelings of Members of Parliament of today could well be ascertained.
  Whatever the outcome may be, I feel that when Parliament came to its last decision it definitely exposed our police
  906
  force to the possibility of unprecedented violence. Since 1946, six police officers have met violent deaths in this country from gunfire, from the use against them of such weapons as Sten guns and cutoff Sten guns. Without delay the Home Secretary should take an important decision with regard to these guns. He should decide—I fully realise the considerable publicity that is at his command—that all guns which are not covered by licences should, over a very short period, be handed in to police stations, with no penalty for those who are prepared to hand them over. Afterwards, anyone discovered with any gun should be subject to the most serious penalty, and our judges and courts should be encouraged to take a very serious view of the matter.
  We are living in such extraordinary times that people can purchase, under the guise of toys, knuckledusters, coshes, daggers, and even stilettos, and other weapons which can be used by criminals to carry out violent attacks. One must have a sense of proportion in these matters. We do not want to stop children playing ordinary childish games like "cops and robbers" and "Red Indians," but the Home Secretary will obviously have to go into this matter without delay. Possibly he will have to come to a decision to ban the sale of these dangerous weapons in order to protect people from their utilisation by criminals.
  When the Home Secretary bears in mind what I have been saying, he cannot fail to recognise that our police force has been exposed to terrible risks, so it is up to this House to see that British justice and fair play is meted out to the dependants of these men by means of sufficient pensions should any police officer suffer tragic death while carrying out his duty.
  There is another vital aspect of this matter. We all know in this House, as well as in the country, that our police force today is accounted to be second to none in the world. At the same time we must recognise that its strength has been declining. So much so that in the Metropolitan area the establishment which we believed to be adequate at some 20,000, and which may well not be sufficient under present conditions, has an actual strength now of only approximately 14,000. In other words, it is 30 per cent. below what we consider to be essential in the Metropolitan area.

  907
  We look solely to the police force to protect our citizens today, and it is they and they alone who go out to maintain law and order. Is it not obvious, therefore, that apart from the question of fair play, on sheer sound common sense when recruiting officers they should at least have the confidence of knowing that under the tragic circumstances to which I am referring their dependants would be taken care of? One could well understand a man deciding to go into the police force discussing this issue with his family and possible dependants, and the query arising as to what would happen to his wife and children if anything unforeseen should happen? Would they be reasonably taken care of by the State employing them?
  What are the facts? For my example I want to state the case of the widow of Police Constable Miles, who was killed in Croydon on Sunday, 2nd November. He was 42 years of age and had served with the police force with great distinction for 22 years. He was recognised to be fearless and brave in the protection of the public. When he died his wages were precisely £9 7s. 10d. a week. I believe I am right in saying that his widow will receive a pension of approximately one-third of this amount, namely, £3 2s. 6d. a week. Time does not permit me to give details of how this one-third is built up, but I am sure the Home Secretary will know that I am correct in stating that this approximate figure is about right.
  Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton: Is the hon. Gentleman talking about the ordinary pension or special pension?
  Mr. Harris: I am talking of the combined pension that this widow will receive. I have amalgamated them all. This will give her a total of about one-third of the total wages which the police officer was drawing when alive.
  Normally, this one-third pension would in the main apply to the dependants of other police officers as well, but I have here some facts which the House might like to know. For instance, Police Constable Edgar, who was shot in February, 1948, left a widow and two boys. The total pension of his widow is £2 18s. 7d. a week. Police Constable Baxter, shot in June, 1951, left a widow who gets only a pension of £2 8s. 6d. a week.
  908
  Detective Inspector Fraser was shot and killed in July, 1951. His widow receives a pension of £4 14s. 3d. a week. Police Constable Jagger left a widow who receives £4 a week, and Police Constable Macleod, of Glasgow, who was shot in September, 1952, left a widow and child and his widow gets now £3 15s. a week. I am sure that hon. Members of this House will be very disturbed, particularly in regard to cases where the pension is even less than £3 a week.
  Turning back to the case I was originally stating, Mrs. Miles will have to pay out of her £3 2s. 6d. a week rent for a house which she occupies amounting to about 32s. a week. That leaves about 30s. a week on which to live. It is fortunate that there are no dependent children. I believe that a most generous and correct view has been taken about the house that Mrs. Miles occupies and in which she will be permitted to remain, but in today's circumstances how can she manage with the 30s. that is left for her to live upon?
  In a short debate of this kind it is impossible to go into the considerable detail of cost of living expenses, because there are so many ways of viewing the subject, but I am sure that the Minister must agree that living by herself will cost Mrs. Miles at least 35s. to 40s. a week for food alone. On top of this, we must remember the other hundred and one household items for which she will have to pay—gas, electricity, coal, insurance, rates, shoes, clothes, cleaning material, and so on.
  These items in themselves, even with the most stringent economy, must take up at least 30s. a week. Together with rent and food, therefore, it is imperative for Mrs. Miles to receive something like £5 a week even to exist. It is fair to mention that Mrs. Miles is at present. I believe, in a position to go to work, but this should not be the criterion in cases of this kind because, obviously, she may not always be able to do so.
  It is only right and proper that such widows should not receive what is approximately one-third of a police officer's wages as pension but under present day conditions, more like 50 per cent. The Police Pensions Act should be revised accordingly forthwith. My right hon. and learned Friend will realise that I have studied all the details of the pensions payable under circumstances of this kind. I

  909
  could take up more time by going into the facts, but it still comes down to the general result that Mrs. Miles, as with other similar dependants, will be receiving approximately one-third of her husband's wages as pension, whereas a figure of approximately 50 per cent. should be much nearer the true position. In addition, there should be further consideration where in other cases there might be dependent children.
  I may be reminded that stringent economy has to be exercised in Government expenditure, but I cannot believe that any hon. Member would wish to economise in a matter of this nature. Since 1946 15 police officers have lost their lives while on duty. Six of them were killed by gunfire and the other nine lost their lives by other accidents. Therefore, the cost to the State of what I am proposing would be almost infinitesimal compared with the general State expenditure of today.
  The Home Secretary may say also that police pensions are under consideration and that certain revisions may be coming forward in the near future. I believe I am right in saying that this particular problem will not be covered by any plans which might at present be in mind. I feel I have made out a case which cannot be disputed and which calls for an urgent and fair adjustment in these widows' pensions.
  After the tragic death of Police Constable Miles, Croydon, as a borough, has already rallied in response to voluntary appeals by the local Press and the Croydon magistrates, who have opened up funds on behalf of Mrs. Miles. Both these funds are to be amalgamated. While one does not in any way wish to dampen the generosity of people, particularly at a time like this, it seems deplorable that under such conditions a widow has to rely upon this charity to see her through.
  Whilst the Minister's reply may not give me complete satisfaction, I sincerely hope that he will be able to throw out a word of comfort in enabling me to feel that the matter will be seriously and urgently considered. It is just not good enough to praise police officers who die while on duty. Nor is it good enough for us to rely on the public's generosity at a time like this. What we have to do is to see that, without any question, the State meets the obligation which we feel
  910
  exists, and that is all I am really asking of the Minister tonight.
  10.31 p.m.
  Mr. Ede: The hon. Member for Croydon, North (Mr. F. Harris) is certainly fortunate in that he has advocated three courses, each of which, he indicated, would require legislation and, on the Adjournment, has not been ruled out of order in respect of that.
  Obviously, having drawn attention to that, I cannot deal with the first two points that he raised, much as I should like to do so, but with regard to the third I do not believe legislation is necessary. I believe that something could be done to deal with the question of police officers murdered on duty without having to submit legislation. I think the records of the Home Office will show that during the time that I was there I strove very hard indeed to get an amendment of the necessary regulations which would enable cases like this to be regarded as cases which called for adequate public recognition of the heroism of the officer concerned.
  Sir Sidney Marshall: I suggest "Government recognition." The public recognises it.
  Mr. Ede: I thought the hon. Gentleman believed that this Government represented the public. Although I might differ from him on that, when I said "recognition by the public" I meant recognition at the public expense to which all of us have to contribute.
  I believe that this type of death on duty calls for special recognition. The officers concerned face very great perils, and I do not want any officer to feel that if he is called upon to face peril he must have some thought as to what will be the plight of those left behind him if he pays the full price for carrying out his duty.
  These are police officers. Let us be quite certain of this—they are only people paid a salary to do a duty that falls on each one of us. If this constable had called on any one of us here to assist him in apprehending these two people who were on the roof of that building, it would have been our duty, subject to a penalty if we did not comply with it, to assist him.
  I hope that these men who, in circumstances of great peril in attempting to

  911
  preserve the Queen's Peace, shoulder a specially heavy responsibility for us, will receive an assurance from the Government that from public funds they will receive recognition for their wives and dependants should they fall in the course of duty.
  10.34 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): I am sure the House would wish me to begin by expressing the sympathy of the Government, and, indeed, of every hon. Member of the House, to the widow of Constable Miles and also to the dependants left by the other constables who have lost their lives in this way who were referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North (Mr. F. Harris).
  Perhaps I might start by very briefly giving the facts in the Croydon case. The case is, of course sub judice in certain respects, and I think I should only say that Constable Miles was shot dead while on duty attempting to seize a man on the roof of a store. As my hon. Friend has said, he was aged 42, had 22 years' service and left a widow but no children. The widow is entitled to a pension of £2 16s. 4d. per week, and not as stated by my hon. Friend. The reason is, of course, that it is the average of the last three years' pay, and not of the actual pay at the date of death.
  That pension is a special pension; that is to say, it is a pension payable at the rate and under the conditions applicable when a police officer loses his life in the course of his duty or dies as the result of injury sustained while on duty. It is, in that sense, to be opposed to the ordinary pension, which is payable to the surviving wife of a police officer, which she receives whatever the cause of the officer's death.
  The special rate is somewhat higher than the ordinary rate. I will not trouble the House by giving particulars as to how the rate is calculated; it is rather complicated. In fact, it combines a service element with a National Insurance element. For a widow alone, the pension is never less than one-third of her husband's average pay for the last three years of his service, and, in some cases, it may be somewhat higher, though not very much. In addition to that, there is payable an element for children, which
  912
  ranges from £33 to £38 per year for the first child, and from £40 to £45 for the second and subsequent children.
  My hon. Friend referred to the case of Constable Macleod in Glasgow. He had only six years' service, but left a widow and one child, and her special pension will be at £3 15s. per week. At the moment, it is actually £4 0s. 6d., because for the first 13 weeks it runs at a slightly higher rate, and if, as I believe is to be the fact, she has another child, she will get another 15s. 6d. per week in respect of that child. I have told the House of the ordinary and special pensions because I think it is the necessary background.
  The proposal put forward by my hon. Friend, and substantially supported by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, is that we should introduce a third class of pension. It is to be, as I understand it, a pension for the widows of those constables who are murdered by armed criminals. I think that is stating fairly what has been suggested.
  I should tell the House that that is not a novel proposal. In fact, the Police Pensions Act, 1921, did contain provision very nearly to that effect. It gives a specially high rate of pension for the widow of a man killed in the execution of his duty involving special risks. Section 33 (3) of that Act gives a special rate of widow's pension where the husband died from a non-accidental injury, and the House will be interested to hear that a non-accidental injury is defined as—
  "Any injury intentionally inflicted, or incurred in the performance of a duty involving special risks, shall be deemed to be non-accidental injury."
  That is not very far from what has been suggested in the course of this debate, and, indeed, it shows clearly that, at that time, Parliament had very much the same ideas as are entertained generally by all hon. Members this evening, and, if I might say so, very naturally and properly so. But it is important to recall what, in fact happened to that Section. It was impossible to maintain the narrow line which was originally intended by Parliament rather as we are intending this evening, and the special class to receive a higher pension was continually added to and expanded until it became so large that the differentiation was ultimately abolished under the administration of the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) in 1948, and, I think

  913
  I am right in saying, abolished without the disapproval and perhaps even with the welcome of all parts of the Police Council.
  Shooting cases, if I may so refer to them, are the only ones which have been specifically mentioned this evening, and I have, as the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, been supplied with a large number of administrative reasons why it would be difficult to deal specially with those cases. But I do not think that the temper either of the House or of the country would wish to consider administrative reasons particularly carefully at the present time.
  On the other hand, I want the House to face what is really implied by what hon. Members have asked this evening. It is not that the Government are unsympathetic to what is asked, but that it is right that the House should see what would be the effect of doing as suggested. My hon. Friend, I think, limited his request to a special rate of pension for widows of men who are killed by shooting.
  Mr. F. Harris: Time is short, so I do not want to interrupt, but I did not say that. I said that 15 had been killed by one means or another.
  Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: I am sorry. That is what I understood my hon. Friend to say I think that he would agree, however, that it would be impossible really to differentiate between that type of case and the case of the constable who was killed by a blow from a crowbar. I think that the right hon. Gentleman accepts that, but wishes to limit it to those two types of case or, at any rate, cases where there has been an actual murder in the ordinary sense of the word.
  Mr. Ede: Murder or manslaughter.
  Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: There we get a difference at once. We at once get the next type of case where we find a man who is deliberately or recklessly run over when he tries to stop a bandit committing a felony. We then get the next case of the man who is not deliberately run over but who falls off the running board of a car in which he tries to stop a thief committing a robbery. We then go on to the case of the constable who falls off a roof instead of being shot, and so on right down to the case which was reached under the 1921 Act where the widow of a constable on point duty is eligible for the higher rate.
  914
  I must point this out to the House to show the real practical difficulty that exists. Hon. Members must make up their minds that if they are going to have a special class they have got to except those who are not in the class, and wherever we draw the line we are bound to find very real cases of hardship. That is the practical difficulty.
  On the other hand, it has been suggested—and I think that the House will take notice of this—that the type of case where a murder has been committed is a really exceptional type of case, and I think that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and also the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is of course concerned with this, will both take note of that fact. I certainly am not in a position here this evening to say that it will be possible to do anything, but I can undertake on behalf of my right hon. Friends that they will look at this position again in the light of what has been said.
  I can hold out no promise or undertaking of any kind because the difficulties are very great, and I think that that is recognised. On the other hand, this debate has served a useful purpose, and I can assure all hon. Members that this matter certainly has the most sympathetic attention of the Government.
  10.45 p.m.
  Sir Herbert Williams: I have only a few moments, but I should have liked to make a few general observations because P.C. Miles was one of my constituents, and I am told that he was regarded as a very good officer both by the magistrates and the Recorder. In this case, the problem may be solved by the fact that one of the local newspapers has opened a fund, to which there has already been a generous response, and the magistrates are also opening a fund. I believe they are to be amalgamated.
  I express my thanks to my colleague, the hon. Member for Croydon, North (Mr. F. Harris). Two of his constituents are on a charge; one of mine was killed—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Fourteen minutes to Eleven o'Clock

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

Prayers
The Lord Glentoran—Took the Oath.
The Lord Hazlerigg—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

RELEASE OF WAR CRIMINALS
2.33 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a German war criminal by the name of Wielen has recently been released; what was his crime and original sentence; how much of it he has served and what were the reasons for his release and whether the attention of Her Majesty's Government has been drawn to the speeches made at a gathering of ex-Nazis at Werden recently.]
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, Max Wielen, who is 69 and in bad health, was recently released from Werl Prison in the British Zone. He was tried on the charge of being concerned in the killing of Allied officers who had escaped from the prisoner of war camp, Stalag Luft III, and sentenced to life imprisonment. This sentence was subsequently reduced to one of fifteen years. He was released as an act of clemency after having served 7½ years, which, allowing for remission for good conduct, isthe equivalent of an 11-year sentence. Wielen was a regular police officer in charge of the district where the escapes took place. He was convicted of participation in the general conspiracy but not in any of the murders. All the other seventeen accused were, unlike Wielen, members of the Gestapo. They were found guilty on particular charges and fourteen of them were sentenced to death.
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The second part of the question has nothing to do with the first; but I will answer it on its merits. The speeches at Werden were delivered at a reunion of an organisation of former members of the Waffen S.S., the published aims of which are not in themselves objectionable. An objectionable speech was made by the former General Ramcke. He was not himself a member of the Waffen S.S. and was a guest speaker at the meeting. The organisers of the meeting publicly dissociated themselves from his remarks, which have also been strongly condemned by the German Federal Chancellor and by the German Press of all shades of political opinion. The German authorities are well aware that Her Majesty's Government strongly deplore speeches of this kind, which undermine confidence in the honesty of Germany's intentions and her reliability as a European partner.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, whilst thanking the noble Earl for his answer, which puts the reason for the Question in rather a different light, may I ask this further question? I have referred to this fellow Wielen, but from time to time other German war criminals have been released. Can the noble Earl say what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to these people? Are we to continue to let them loose? Is it done as an act of appeasement to certain sections of opinion in Germany? There was no more ghastly crime than the murder of those R.A.F. officers from Stalag Luft III. I am sure that other noble Lords in this House must remember, far better than I do, the circumstances of the crime. Is it not an awful thing to let this fellow loose when he has served only half his sentence for that horrible crime? With regard to the speeches made at Werden, I do not know whether the action taken by the Germans to repudiate that speech encourages the noble Earl to think the leopard has changed his spots. But I do not.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Earl has asked what is the general policy of Her Majesty's Government in regard to war criminals. Each case will be judged purely on its merits. The noble Earl really wishes to know the manner in which clemency will be exercised. In that connection, I am afraid I must say that, by its nature, clemency is very difficult to define, and in this respect I would refer

157
the noble Earl to the words of my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary in another place. My right honourable friend said:
"These cases are only sent forward by the High Commissioner when there is a prima facie case. They are examined by legal officials there, and again by legal officials here, who give me advice. I do my best in each of these cases to arrive at a just conclusion, and I really do not think that I can be asked what my reasons are in a particular case."
May I add a word in regard to the second part of the Question? The noble Earl is aware that my noble friend Lord Reading last week made a fairly full statement of the views of Her Majesty's Government, which I think covers fully the point the noble Earl has raised.
EARL HOWE: I again thank the noble Earl for his answer, but I am afraid it is still not obvious to me why we have to exercise clemency towards a fellow like this, who did not exercise any clemency towards his victims.

UNITED NATIONS AND KOREAN AGGRESSION
2.39 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can make available the text of the telegram, S/1496, from the United Nations Commission on Korea to the Security Council on which was based the resolution passed by the Security Council in June, 1950, which declared the North Koreans to have committed an act of aggression against South Korea; and also whether they can say if any other report directly relating to the aforesaid resolution was received from the United Nations Commission on Korea before the day on which the resolution was passed by the Security Council.]
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the text of the telegram, S/1496, from the United Nations Commission on Korea to the Secretary-General of the United Nations was printed in the Commission's Official Report signed on September 4, 1950, and was reproduced as Annex 37 (a) in the White Paper entitled—"Further Summary of Events relating to Korea,
158
October, 1950 to May, 1951," published in September, 1951 (Command 8366). This telegram was before the Security Council when they passed their resolution on June 25, 1950. Two further telegrams from the Commission were before the Council when they passed a second resolution on the Korean conflict on June 27, 1950. The texts of these two telegrams were also published in the Commission's report of September 4, 1950 and were reproduced as Annex 37 (b) and 37 (d) in the same White Paper.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I beg to thank Her Majesty's Government for the answer that they have given.

CIVILIANS' POSSESSION OF FIREARMS
2.41 p.m.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the attention of the Home Secretary has been drawn to the increasing possession of revolvers and other weapons by civilians; whether he is taking any steps to put an end to this dangerous situation, and, if so, the nature of the action taken.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SIMONDS): My Lords, I assume that the noble Lord has in mind the unlawful possession of firearms and their use for criminal purposes in connection with crimes of violence. Since the war every endeavour has been made by the Home Secretary and his predecessor to reduce the number of firearms in the possession of civilians, and the appeals for the surrender of firearms have not been without success. In the nature of the case, however, firearms which are retained by individuals for criminal purposes are unlikely to be surrendered in response to official appeals, and the vigilance of the police can be exercised only in relation to persons whose conduct gives reasonable cause to suspect unauthorised possession of such weapons. Such evidence as is available does not point, however, to a significant increase in the use of firearms in connection with crimes of violence. Nevertheless, Her Majesty's Government recognise that there have of late been more armed outrages than can

159
be contemplated with equanimity. Your Lordships will recognise that the police themselves have best cause to take every practical step to limit the dangers to the community arising from the unlawful possession of firearms. The Home Secretary is confident that they are, in fact, doing so. Her Majesty's Government are watching the situation closely but are not satisfied that special action is called for on their part at the present time.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord whether he is aware that it will not give the public very much satisfaction to learn that while there have been—I think this is admitted—more crimes in which the use of firearms has been involved, the Home Secretary is not going to take any steps other than to depend upon the police? Further, is it not the fact that there is more than one authority for licensing firearms and that that is likely to give rise to some doubt about the proper administration in connection with this matter?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly I will call the attention of my right honourable friend to what the noble Lord has said. Of course, it is a fact that the issue of a certificate to hold a firearm rests with the particular police authority. There is no central authority which deals with this matter. I can perhaps help the noble Lord by giving him this piece of information which is taken from the statistics of the Metropolitan Police District—I cannot give the noble Lord figures for the whole country. So far as proceedings under the Firearms Act are concerned, in 1950 there were eighty-two prosecutions and seventy-six cautions. In 1951 there were seventy-two prosecutions and 113 cautions.
Now I will give the noble Lord this further information which I have succeeded in obtaining. The numbers of cases in which the possession of firearms, whether used or not, has come to light in connection with crimes of violence, are as follows: in 1948, forty-eight cases; in 1949, twenty-eight cases; in 1950, thirty-nine cases, and in 1951, fourteen cases.
160
During the first nine months of 1952 there were seventeen cases. These figures have been extracted for me, and perhaps they may throw some light on the problem which the noble Lord has raised.
LORD LAWSON: May I ask the noble and learned Lord whether he will convey to the Home Secretary the fact that undoubtedly the public mind is much disturbed on this question at the present time?
EARL HOWE: My Lords, the Question on the Order Paper refers to "other weapons" as well as firearms, and to their possession by civilians. May I ask the noble and learned Lord what is his view about the sale to children of weapons such as coshes, stilettos, and the like? Does he think that Her Majesty's Government would be ready to do anything to stop that?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Perhaps the noble Earl would be good enough to put down a special Question dealing with that quite new topic. If he will do so, I will consult with my right honourable friend the Home Secretary upon the matter.
LORD OGMORE: May I ask the noble and learned Lord whether he would convey to his right honourable friend the Home Secretary information of the fact that in this country there are undoubtedly a considerable number of war souvenirs, in the shape of firearms or other weapons? It seems to me that if an appeal were made to the possessors of these weapons to hand them in, that appeal would have some good results. Obviously, the people who have firearms and the like for criminal purposes must get them from somewhere, and I believe that this is one of the sources from which they may do so.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am much obliged to the noble Lord and I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what he has said. The question of appealing for the surrender of firearms is a matter which is under constant consideration, and I think the noble Lord will realise that there are pros and cons in respect of it.

DEPUTY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES
2.45 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS(THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Lord Stanmore, the Viscount Mersey, the Lord Teynham, the Lord Merthyr, the Lord Blackford, the Lord O'Hagan, the Lord Terrington, the Lord Crook, the Lord Llewellin, the Lord Chorley, the Lord Kershaw and the Earl of Buckinghamshire be appointed the panel of Lords to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
THE CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Committee be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President of the Council and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

M. Reading.

M. Willingdon.

E. Fortescue.

E. Jowitt.

V. Mersey.

V. Samuel.

V. Swinton.

V. Maugham.

V. Hall.

L. Carrington.

L. Hare (E. Listowel.)

L. Stanmore.

L. Rea.

L. Nathan.

L. Shepherd.

L. Ogmore.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Standing Orders Committee be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Huntingdon.

E. Fortescue.

E. Jowitt.

V. Mersey.

V. Samuel.

V. Maugham.

L. Strabolgi.

L. Teynham.

L. Carrington.

L. Clanwilliam. (E. Clanwilliam.)

L. Denman.

L. Hare. (E. Listowel.)

L. O'Hagan.

L. Stanmore.

L. Merthyr.

L. Cozens-Hardy.

L. Faringdon.

L. Clwyd.

L. Milne.

L. Tweedsmuir.

L. Rea.

L. Ammon.

L. Schuster.

L. Shepherd.

L. Kershaw.

L. Milner of Leeds.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, That all Petitions relating to the compliance with the Standing Orders on Private Bills which shall be presented during the present Session be referred to the Committee, unless otherwise ordered.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name in regard to this Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all Special Orders of the present Session, and that the Lords

163
following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Norfolk.

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Fortescue.

E. Cromer.

E. Iveagh.

V. Mersey.

V. Samuel.

V. Maugham.

L. Strabolgi.

L. Teynham.

L. Carrington.

L. Denham.

L. Hare. (E. Listowel.)

L. O'Hagan.

L. Stanmore.

L. Merthyr.

L. Cozens-Hardy.

L. Faringdon.

L. Rea.

L. Belstead.

L. Ammon.

L. Schuster.

L. Shepherd.

L. Kershaw.

L. Campion.

L. Milner of Leeds.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move the motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper with regard to this Committee.
Moved, That that Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President of the Council and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Norfolk.

D. Wellington.

M. Salisbury.

M. Cholmondeley.

M. Zetland.

M. Willingdon.

E. Scarbrough.

E. Huntingdon.

E. Dartmouth.

E. Stanhope.

E. Ilchester.

E. De La Warr.

E. Clarendon.

164

E. Fortescue.

E. Munster.

E. Ancaster.

E. Cromer.

E. Iveagh.

E. Bessborough.

E. Halifax.

E. Jowitt.

V. Allendale.

V. Mersey.

V. Wimborne.

V. Samuel.

V. Swinton.

V. Maugham.

V. Simon.

V. Hall.

L. Teynham.

L. Saltoun.

L. Carrington.

L. Wigan. (E. Crawford.)

L. Denman.

L. Hatherton.

L. Hare. (E. Listowel.)

L. Stanmore.

L. Bingham. (E. Lucan.)

L. Mancroft.

L. Rea.

L. Nathan.

L. Ammon.

L. Schuster.

L. Pethick-Lawrence.

L. Pakenham.

L. Henderson.

L. Morrison.

L. Chorley.

L. Lucas of Chilworth.

L. Shepherd.

L. Burden.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Leave given to the Committee to report from time to time.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move, also, the Motion which stands in my name in respect of this Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider any proposals for alterations in the procedure of this House which may arise from time to time, and whether the Standing Orders do or do not require to be altered to effect such alterations and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman

165
of Committees, be named of the Select Committee:

M. Salisbury.

E. Fortescue.

E. Jowitt.

V. Mersey.

V. Samuel.

V. Swinton.

V. Simon.

V. Stansgate.

L. Strabolgi.

L. Denman.

L. Stanmore.

L. Schuster.

L. Shepherd.

L. Rea.

L. Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.

L. Milner of Leeds.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS OF THE HOUSE
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Standing Orders of the House, with a view to amendment or revision of the same; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Exeter.

M. Cholmondeley.

E. Selkirk.

V. Stansgate.

L. Amulree.

L. Rea.

L. Schuster.

L. Milner of Leeds.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

FOOD PRODUCTION
2.50 p.m.
LORD HUNGARTON LORD HUNGARTON rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the present drive for food production in Great Britain, and also whether they are satisfied with the present procedure now in operation; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. I am sure your Lordships will agree that this is a very important subject, probably the most important subject facing the people of Britain to-day. For that reason I feel it is only right that I should bring this matter forward to be looked at again by your Lordships. None of us can be satisfied with the present production of food in Great Britain. It is now round about fifty per cent. of our consumption. That ought to go up at the earliest possible moment to 75 per cent. As a countryman and a farmer, I say to your Lordships and to my country that this could be achieved if only we would go the right way to work. It is agreed by all that the economic position, and indeed the strategic position, of our country demands that every ounce of food which can he produced here must be produced.
Apart from our own economic position, it is essential that we should produce the utmost from our land because there is definitely a world shortage. Many thinking people are beginning to realise to-day that the increase in world population is greater than the increase in world food production. Last night I had the pleasure of looking in at television and hearing the Lord Mayor of London in his speech refer, as I thought very ably, to what should be done in this country in the way of food production. I am glad that even the City of London know that we should produce a great deal more food. I am convinced that the land is our greatest potential asset and that our farmers, if properly led, will lift our country out of its present difficult position. It is possible to increase food production enormously, by hundreds of millions of pounds a year. We are only just starting to get clown to the job. I know we have been working at it through the war years, but since the war we have slipped back and it is only now that we are again beginning to do a little better. We have to do a great deal more.
Our farmers require a firm policy, a real policy. They require a real lead from the Government—and I am bound to say we have not had that for a number of years. If I may use the expression, we have been wobbling too much for too many years, and many farmers are wondering where the Government are going to jump next. I say that because of the changes of emphasis which have been placed on the various commodities that we produce. We have to find some better way of dealing with the variety of farm produce. For example, many milk producers consider that they were let down badly when the price emphasis was moved in favour of meat production. They had been building up their herds for many years and had spent a great deal of money in putting up shedding. They were producing the goods which the Government wanted them to produce and were a little ahead of their target; then they were let down. I do not think that the milk producers were fairly treated. I should like to see a great deal more milk produced, as well as meat and other things The last time I spoke to your Lordships I said I should like to see more cheese, and good cheese, produced in this country. Our farmers are well able to do it and that must come into any new programme.
More recently, we have had another ploughing-up campaign. This has resulted in large increases in barley production, but at the same time the price of barley has dropped 51 per cent., from £10 to £5 per quarter, except for the barley purchased by the brewers at a higher figure. Farmers cannot go on in such an uncertain market. Many of the smaller farmers still have their barley unsold. They just cannot sell it. And the drop from £10 to £5 a quarter is halving their returns. Many farmers in the barley growing districts are in a parlous state. I think that the probability of this happening should have been foreseen. Perhaps I myself should take some little responsibility for that. At any rate, it should have been foreseen, as the lower prices received by barley growers are putting many of them in a difficult position.
I do not intend to bore the House by quoting a mass of figures, but I should like to refer to two excellent articles in The Times of yesterday and to-day. The correspondent who wrote those articles
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might have seen my notes, or I might have seen his articles! I would commend them to your Lordships as excellent and informative reading. It is well known that scores of thousands of acres of arable land were put back to grass between 1945 and 1950. It is good to know that owing to the £5 an acre subsidy this return to grass has stopped and that arable land is again increasing. This is as it should be, because food is best produced by taking the plough round a farm and breaking up leys after three or four years. We can get much more food by ley farming. As your Lordships know, the Ministry of Agriculture publish the average yields per acre of cereals, potatoes and sugar beet. Their figures of this year's yields are 22 cwt. of cereals and seven tons of potatoes and sugar beet. When we remember that these are average figures and that many of the better and bigger farmers are producing over 30 cwt. per acre of cereals, goodness knows what the smaller and poorer men are producing—something in the neighbourhood of 12 to 14 cwt., I suppose. No wonder some of these farmers are in a difficult position. That must be altered.
Those of us who are farmers know that at present prices these returns give little or no profit. There cannot be any profit in these lower yields. There is only one way of overcoming that. The land, by better farming, must produce 50 per cent. more. It can be done. Land is honest and will give back all that you put into it, with very big interest. Practical experience shows me that an extra £5 worth of phosphates and potash, properly applied, will return an increase of £20 per acre. That is an illuminating figure, which I can substantiate. I can give one instance where a man who was in the habit of putting half a ton of fertiliser on potatoes, put on a further 5 cwt. (I put on a ton, by the way) and increased his tonnage twofold, probably threefold. At £10 a ton, that makes £30 an acre—even more than the figure of £20 which I have already given.
Half of our farmers are doing well and the other half are struggling. Some are spending the money on their farms, while some are spending more on the education of their children and perhaps in running a car. Then there is the increased cost of running the farm. The farmers at the present moment have a little higher standard of living. I am sure your Lordships

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did not begrudge them the higher standard of living which they had between the two wars—I think they were entitled to that. But now the increased bank rate has added to the farmers' difficulties. I am sure your Lordships realise that since the bank rate has increased, and also costs of securing money from mortgage corporations, land has decreased in value by about 25 to 30 per cent., and the farmers' security has fallen to that extent. This has made it more difficult for the farmer to borrow money from the bank, or from any other source. I do not blame the bankers. After all, bank managers must look after the interests of all their clients, and not merely those of farmers. The higher rates of interest mean simply this: that whereas a farm was worth, say, £12,000 a year ago, it is now worth only round about £9,000.
The farmers are, quite rightly, asked to produce more. How is that to be done? I firmly believe that the real solution lies in a much greater application of fertilisers, dung, and the ploughing in of green crops for humus. We must accept the fact that to-day many farmers are short of capital, and a way must be found to help in the application of manures. If your Lordships want to find out whether the farmer is short of capital, just ask the banks and the merchants; they will supply the answer. It is only too true that farmers are short of capital. Many people wonder why that should be so at this time, but we have toface the fact that it is so. I am not going to suggest that higher prices should be paid for produce, except to meet increased wages to the workers. We must stop the drift from the land, and if higher wages are the only answer to that problem, then those higher wages must be paid.
There is another factor which has gone against the farm worker recently—namely, the increase of his cottage rent. Most district councils are putting up rents by 2s. a week; and again this is due to the higher bank charges. That increase has to come out of the land; it is a charge against the farmer. During the past year 19,000 men have left the land, and I am very concerned about this matter. For years some 20,000 men have been leaving us each year. This drift must be stopped, and we must by some means get men to come back to the land.
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The day will come—and I hope it will not be too far off—when the world will see the futility of building up the armaments now being manufactured. Men will then be looking for employment. But we shall still be short of food. Therefore, I say that provision should be made to-day to see that there are in the countryside houses ready for those men to come back to, and also to get the men back to the countryside now. I should like to see 500,000 more men back on the land. In the course of a few years, the country will be glad to see these men back on the land, instead of being unemployed. That is my considered opinion, and I believe it is a matter which is worthy of your Lordships' consideration.
I should like to return for a moment to the question of fertilisers. The suggestion I have to make to Her Majesty's Government is that consideration should be given to a scheme whereby the manufacturers of fertilisers receive a loan from the Treasury at a low rate of interest—say, not more than 3 per cent. per annum—to enable the farmer to purchase his manures and pay for them after he has sold his crop, the cost of the loan by the Treasury to be added to the farmer's account. I am not asking for a subsidy. It may be of interest to your Lordships to know that one firm of manufacturers makes upwards of £40 million worth of fertilisers a year. This suggested scheme would not in any way interfere with the present channels of trade, and the responsibility of collecting from the farmer would be entirely that of the merchant. I would have no form filling, which is an important consideration.
I turn now to the second part of my Motion, which asks "whether the Government are satisfied with the present procedure now in operation." Many of your Lordships, like myself live in a country district and some come into contact with farmers. Those noble Lords will appreciate that the present Government, like the late Government are using, in peace time, similar methods to those used during the war period. Let me give full marks to the war agricultural executive committees for the work done from 1939 to 1945,and for the work they have—I will use the word—attempted to do since. But they have not been successful since 1945. It is often suggested that greater powers

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should be given to agricultural executive committees. What for? To use the stick? No, my Lords, that way, in peace time, is not British. It is sound, honest leadership that we want. Farmers will not be driven—and why should they be? The farmers are not the only people in Britain who will not be driven to-day. We say we are a free people, and I believe that we are: let us stay free. They are good fellows, and they respond to good leadership.
The National Farmers' Union was formed just over thirty years ago, and is now a powerful body, with over 90 per cent. of the farmers as members. What is the Union for? It is primarily to give assistance to weaker members. I am given to understand that several counties have adopted a "help my neighbour" scheme, which will assist the second-rate farmer to farm better. I am sure we all hope that every county in Britain will follow this excellent example. The National Farmers' Union Council in London are working extremely well with the Government, but unfortunately many county branches, to put it mildly, do not look with favour on the agricultural executive committees. I happen to be a member of an agricultural executive committee, and I know a little about this subject. They look on us as civil servants. Civil servants are all right, but the farmers do not care much for civil servants. When we try to tell them that we are only acting under Ministry instructions, they say straightaway, "Of course, you are: you are working under the Ministry." And when one comes to look at it carefully, one can see that what they say is correct. At the present time, we are being farmed more or less from Whitehall. And what the farmer says when we come into contact with him is, "We do not want so much farming from Whitehall. Let them tell us what they want, and we will get on with the job." This situation is, to me, most regrettable; it does not help food production when the agricultural executive committees are on one side and the farmers are pulling against them on the other. This is not so in every county, but in the majority of counties it is, and we must try to alter it.
The question is: How are we to overcome this difficulty? I should like to make reference to the gracious Speech
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from the Throne, which contains these words:
"My, Ministers will encourage all engaged in agriculture, mining and industry to cooperate in increasing productive efficiency and thus to produce at lower costs the goods needed at home and by the export trades.
I like that word "co-operate." That is British. Is it possible for us to get greater co-operation between the agricultural executive committees, the National Union of Agricultural Workers, the National Farmers' Union and the land owners? I want to see co-operation between those bodies, and particularly between the agricultural executive committees and the Government. I know that the Government are dealing with the National Farmers' Union, but I want much closer co-operation in this drive for food. May I suggest that a conference of these bodies be called together at the earliest possible time to work out a plan for a new drive for food production such as we had in 1943? That is the kind of drive we want. If such a conference could be called I have no doubt that the Ministry of Agriculture would be represented, and also the Treasury. I hope that at any rate my suggestion will be seriously considered. I am confident that if we all pull together we shall very quickly get some remarkable results from our land. You get nothing by pulling in different directions.
I believe that 40 per cent. of the land in this country is farmed by owner-occupiers. In my opinion, the National Agricultural Advisory Service, under the present excellent leadership of Sir James Scott-Watson, is well able to stand alone. They have done good work and are willing to do good work. I believe that the N.A.A.S. will do more than any other body in educating the farmer—and the farmer really needs educating. Some may say that the farmer has had all the education in food production he needs. But that is not so. There is a great deal which the farmers in this country can do but which, hitherto, they have little thought of. They have to change their methods to present conditions, and many farmers are not doing that. I want the farmer to be told what he should do, and I believe that he will do it. For instance, we ought to make better use of the grass for all the cattle and sheep in this country. We could make a

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tremendous saving in feeding-stuffs—that is, coarse grains fed to pigs and poultry—by using more grass for our cattle and carrying more cattle. Except in a very few instances, farmers have hardly begun to realise the real value of silage. Silage is wonderful if it is properly made. It gives cattle grass during the winter time. I hope that the N.A.A.S. in every district—and when I use the word "district" I refer to areas of about 100,000 acres—will have demonstration plots. That is what the farmers want, plots where potatoes, corn and things of that kind are grown. The N.A.A.S. can do a great deal of work in that direction.
At the present time, farmers do not know what is required of then. We are asked to increase food production by so much per cent. above pre-war levels. That is a Very loose way of expressing it. The farmer will say: "I know. I want to do better, but where am I to go? Do we want oats, barley or the other things which we are growing?" Those answers ought to come from the Government. Let the fanners know what is required of them. The target for each commodity should be definitely set for the next five years at least; and it would be better still if it could be set for ten years, particularly so far as livestock is concerned. Then we should get somewhere. The only way to make farming pay is greatly to increase production. That is the only way to meet rising costs, pay higher wages, and possibly lower the price of food. If we can make our land return us 50 per cent. more, or a 100 per cent. more—and the increase can amount to that, if the land is properly farmed—then the farmers will be able to do these things.
I would refer now to the Highlands and Islands. The Highlands and Islands are a great potential breeding ground for cattle and sheep. One of the difficulties facing these good people is getting fodder for the stock during the winter months. This is the only instance where I am asking the Ministry for a little assistance for the country. I believe it is essential that these good people should have this fodder. Fodder can now be purchased in the Lowlands of Scotland and Wales, and also from the Eastern Counties of England, at low prices, but transport charges are almost prohibitive. May I suggest that a subsidy on transport should
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be considered? That is the only thing I am asking for in the way of financial help to our farmers. Those good men who are farming in the Highlands and Islands are worthy of that consideration, and the country badly needs the things we can breed. We shall not get the calves and meat in this country unless it is bred somewhere, and the Highlands and Islands are the greatest potential breeding ground that we have in the British Isles.
So far as the horticulturist is concerned, he is always in trouble every two or three years. Weather conditions play an important part in the success or failure of those engaged in horticulture. Every few years there is either a shortage or a superabundance of production. A marketing scheme should be prepared and put into operation at the earliest possible moment. The Marketing Act is there, but it is up to the horticulturists. If they could get a lead from those higher up it would be all to the good.
To sum up, I beg Her Majesty's Government to come out with a firm policy which will give confidence to producers. Means must be found to encourage a much greater use of fertilisers. There, I believe, is the key to our problem. Every effort should be made to get greater co-operation, on the lines suggested, between agricultural executive committees, the National Farmers' Union, the National Union of Agricultural Workers, and land owners. I hope that a conference will be brought into being in the very near future. A marketing scheme for horticulture should be brought into being at once. Consideration should also be given to a subsidy on the transport of fodder to remote parts of the Highlands and Islands. Finally, it is absolutely essential that we have a strong food production policy, agreed by all Parties, to give the producer the necessary confidence to grow the food which is so vital to our country. I beg to move for Papers.
3.19 p.m.
VISCOUNT HUDSON: My Lords, we are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, for raising once again the question of food production, because although I think the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, when he comes to reply, will find some bright spots in the picture to which to call our attention, the bulk of us who follow agricultural matters will

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agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, that we must be far from satisfied with the progress which is being made. It is true that the September Returns show some increase in production. They show that in some ways agriculture is perhaps doing even better than industry, which itself has shown some regrettable reductions in production compared with last year; but I am perfectly certain that we still have a long way to go.
Now, I should not claim, naturally, to have the wide knowledge of conditions in the country that I once possessed; but I am still honoured by many friendships among farmers—friendships which I made during the war. In talking to many of these farmers I find myself greatly disturbed at the atmosphere which appears to be growing up in the farming community. I think that increased criticism is being made and published of the agricultural executive committees and of the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, said. I hope no noble Lord will think I am being unduly critical if I say that I get the impression that at the present moment there are a number of what might be called N.F.U. backwoodsmen who are defeating the efforts of their President, Sir James Turner, to carry out the promise of increased co-operation in food production—a promise which he made on their behalf during the February Price Review. It is disturbing to see the increase in the number of farmers, in the counties especially, who are preaching the doctrine that the time has come to get rid of the county agricultural committees and of all controls, and to regain what they call their "freedom." I am certain that if they did this they would find that it was very much like the freedom of the jackass in the desert.
The men who make these speeches should perhaps once again be reminded of our experience during the inter-war years. I have said this before, but perhaps your Lordships will forgive me if I repeat it, because I think it is apposite. During the inter-war years, I am reasonably satisfied, our agriculture was efficient; and, taking the whole range of products which we produced, we produced it as cheaply as any other country in the world produced a similar range. But the trouble with our agriculture the
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difficulty we encountered between the wars, was the fact that there was always some one period when some country somewhere was able to produce some one article much cheaper than we could; and with virtual free trade throughout the world in foodstuffs the British farmer was in many respects defeated in detail. The experience of the war years, and the fears of a recurrence after the war of pre-war difficulties led to a wide measure of agreement as to post-war policy. That agreement was essentially a partnership, a partnership between the agricultural industry and the public of this country, in which both sides had responsibilities and both sides had advantages. The public as a whole realised for the first time the importance of agriculture as one of our fundamental industries, and the public as a whole agreed to give the farmer stability and assured markets. That was the basis of the 1947 Act.
On the other hand, the farming industry as a whole promised, in their turn, that they would make themselves reasonably efficient and would provide in adequate quantities the items of food that this country required. That partnership depended upon common sense and upon toleration—surely essential English virtues. But now opponents of that settlement say, "Why should you continue county agricultural executive committees? Why should you continue controls in time of peace? "I have come to the conclusion that one of the difficulties we are in to-day arises from the fact that the Act of 1947, which was based, broadly speaking, on an agreed policy that we on this side had laid down, was intended to act in times of peace. But in fact to-day we are not at peace: we are in a cold war—a cold war which is not of our making but which is imposed upon us. We are suffering from the burden of rearmament, from difficulties in the export trade and difficulties arising from the balance of payments which flow from that cold war. Above all, of course, we are suffering from the difficulties of capital investment in adequate quantity to bring about an increase in our home food production and an increase in our industrial production.
I am not going to pretend that there has not been some progress in the last

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year. The very fact that the ploughing-up grant resulted in a far greater number of acres being ploughed up than those which had been set in the target is in itself encouraging; but the ease with which the target was exceeded—and there is no doubt that it was exceeded with ease—is at the same time a measure of the fall since the war-time peak of ploughing up. My personal guess (and it is only a guess) is that the target has been set too low. I am not sure that in a comparatively short time the growth of agricultural production in this country could not be doubled. I believe that it could be doubled—not, perhaps, in the first year, but within a comparatively short time. I think that what would be useful, if I may venture to suggest it, would be to concentrate to-day on trying to find out what it is that is preventing that possible double increase.
As the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, has said, The Times during the last two days published two very interesting articles. But interesting though these articles were—they described why we are not doing what we might do—they seemed to lack the really important thing: How are we going to get over this difficulty, and what, in fact, is holding back the increased production which most people believe is possible and all of us believe is necessary. I do not wish to detain your Lordships too long, but I should guess that one of the main reasons is taxation. To give just one illustration, I was talking only yesterday to a farmer from the north and he said: "Take the case of one of my neighbours, producing meat. He feeds his cattle and sends them to market, and people are prepared to pay an increased price, so that he makes a profit on them. The income tax authorities tax that profit—which is, in most cases, largely a paper profit and not a cash one. When he has sold the beasts and when he comes, in due course, to renew his stores he must consider the increased price of those stores and the fact that a lot of his cash has gone to pay the taxes and that he is therefore unable to buy even the number of stores he sold, let alone the increased number which he would have had to fatten in order to comply with the demand for increased production." Of course, the position of the farmer is no different from that of industry at large. As we know, owing to taxation industry is finding in-
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creasing difficulty in obtaining the finance necessary to meet depreciation and to provide for the renewal of machinery. Therefore, I suppose that taxation is the chief hindrance to-day to increased food production.
I do not think equipment is one of the causes of this holding back, for it is estimated that since the war landlords have spent £100 million on fixed equipment. Ours is one of the most highly mechanised agricultures in the world. Therefore, broadly speaking, I do not think one can say that lack of fixed equipment is holding things up. Nor can you say that lack of housing is holding things up, because, over the last ten years, or during the last six years since the war, rural housing has undoubtedly improved, is improving and, we hope, is going to improve at a still greater rate.
Finally, I turn to research—and, again, I would say that this is not responsible for holding things up. I should be the last person in the world to denigrate the value of research, but I am certain that if research stopped tomorrow, that fact alone would not necessarily mean that higher production would be impeded. We have to remember the great progress that has been made during the last twelve years, not only in new fundamental research but also in what is equally important, the art of husbandry, and in the rediscovery, particularly during the war, of so many of our grandfathers' and ancestors' methods of cultivation which people, had forgotten. We rediscovered them, many of us thinking that they were brand new discoveries, whereas they were really only a renewal of what had been known years ago. I am perfectly certain that enough is known to-day in practically every branch of agriculture to get the increased production we need, if—and it is an important "if"—that knowledge is reasonably and universally applied.
That leads me to the conclusion that what is really holding things back is the personal equation, the gap between the best farmer, the average farmer and the poor farmer. I am perfectly certain it is not the differences between the big farmer and the small farmer, because, as you see twice a week in your farming papers, example after example is quoted of the small man starting with practically nothing and working up to become a

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successful farmer producing a large amount of gross production per acre, and at the same time a man with a larger moorland farm or hill farm showing equally the way to get increased production from his poorer land. It is not the difference between the small man and the large, as it is so often said to be. I am satisfied in my own mind—it may be unpopular to say this to farmers—that prices alone will not close the gap, because, certainly in the case of many of the average farmers and a great number of the poor farmers, the only result of increasing the prices is to make it easier for them to maintain the standard of living to which they have been accustomed, and not necessarily to urge them to get increased production. That may not be popular, but I think it is true.
Therefore, I come to the conclusion that the only thing that will do the job (and this largely follows along the lines the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, suggested) is public farming opinion—the public opinion of the individual farmer and the individual branch of the N.F.U. in the various counties. That is the only thing that can be relied on to "work the oracle." May I be allowed to say one word about what I believe to be the difference between land and other forms of property, because I think it is fundamental to this conception of public opinion? I believe—certainly I learned from my experience during the war—that land is a unique type of property, and that a man who is either the owner or the occupier of land is not entitled to treat it like other forms of property and to do withit exactly as he likes, because the land of this country is limited in amount. It is decreasing, through necessity, almost every month. It cannot be recreated, except to a comparatively small extent by reclaiming parts of the Wash, and so forth. The land is in its present state because of the work of our ancestors over hundreds and hundreds of years. That leads me to believe that the owner or occupier of land has a moral obligation to the community as a whole, and that no man is entitled to keep it and say: "I must be absolutely free to do what I like with this land because, after all, it is mine."
I believe that we owe the present condition of our land to a realisation by our fathers, grandfathers and forefathers of
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that moral obligation. It was present in the minds of the great improvers of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. I believe it is widespread in the farming industry to-day, among land owners and farmers, though in a great many cases—in fact, in the majority of cases—it is an unconscious recognition. It is up to the people who believe that to see that that view is put across to everyone holding, owning or occupying land. It is perfect nonsense, I believe, to talk about the hostility of the county agricultural executive committees. After all, they are formed from panels submitted by different branches of the industry themselves, and, so far as is humanly possible, they do represent the best local farming experience.
The noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, suggested that it might be a good idea to have a conference of the various county agricultural executive committees. I do not know whether it is of any value, but I recall that at a critical period in the war we were immensely helped by the action of the Royal Agricultural Society in calling a conference of land owners, agricultural workers, farmers, land agents and every one concerned, to work out the broad lines of policy. It is just conceivable that a conference of that kind, analogous to the one that the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, suggested, might be of value. I feel most profoundly that some means must be found in the course of the very near future of breaking the deadlock into which we seem to be drifting, in spite of, apparently, the best of will on the part of Whitehall and the best of will on the part of the leaders of the N.F.U. Something has to be done to break this deadlock, otherwise we shall find ourselves inevitably faced with a situation in which panic measures will become necessary—and everyone knows that that is not to the long-term advantage of either agriculture or the country as a whole. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, said, that it is a matter for leadership. I think that the leaders of the N.F.U. who have played their part in the past must now take a hand and face up to those elements in the countryside and in the counties about which the noble Lord spoke.
There is one final point about which I hope your Lordships will allow me to say a word. I am sorry to say it is rather in criticism of Her Majesty's Government.

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I refer to dogs on allotments—possibly a bathos after what we have been discussing. The Government intend to allow a regulation that was made during the war to lapse. That regulation imposed a penalty upon any owner of a dog who allowed his dog to do damage to an allotment. Although I realise the desire to get rid of controls, I venture to think that, in the circumstances, this is a retrograde step I hope the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, when he comes to reply—I have said this to him privately, so I am sure he will not mind my repeating it in public—will not try to fob me off—or your Lordships, for that matter—with a departmental brief on this point. I have had some correspondence with my old Department on this matter, and their reply is most unsatisfactory. In the first place, they say that the main reason for this regulation was that damage was being done to unfenced war-time allotments. That rather implied that it related to only those allotments. The fact is that it was the extension of unfenced war-time allotments that gave rise to this regulation, but it was applied, and does apply, to all the allotments of the country.
The second argument they put forward is that, because war-time allotments are decreasing in number, therefore the regulation is of little value. That is a very poor argument, because the fewer wartime allotments there are, the more important to food production are those allotments which remain. The third argument they use is that it really does not matter, because the ordinary allotment holder has the right, I think under Section 19 of the Allotments Act, 1922, to take proceedings against anyone who does damage to his allotment. If that had been any good, we should not have had to bring in the new regulation. One example of the futility of that argument is that there was a case not very long ago (I believe it is a classic case in this matter) in which an unfortunate man had an allotment—I am not sure whether he was a disabled man, but at all events he was a semi-invalid—where he kept a number of rabbits, and those rabbits were killed by a dog He brought an action against the owner of the dog and won it in the lower court, but on appeal the decision was reversed, on the theory that every dog must be allowed one bite, which I understand is a good legal motto. The net result to this unfortunate man was
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that he lost his rabbits and, in addition, was mulcted in heavy costs. So, not unnaturally, the National Allotment Society does not hold this answer of the Minister of Agriculture to be very valuable. Nor do I.
What is to be done? I suggest that when, as I understand is proposed, the Minister carries out his semi-promise to introduce legislation next year against dogs worrying sheep, this difficulty might well be dealt with in the Bill. I hope we are going to legislate against dogs worrying sheep, not because the dogs hurt the sheep—that is the sort of sentimentality which goes down very well with those concerned with the Canine Defence League or the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals—but because, owing to the damage done to sheep by dogs, the keeping of sheep over wide areas of land around towns has gone out, and because, in order to provide adequate supplies of meat for the people of this country—in other words, for food production—it is necessary to restrain dogs and to bring sheep back. I submit that precisely that criterion should be applied in the case of damage done by dogs to allotments, and that a similar provision should be made part of the permanent law of the land.
It is said by the Ministry that the regulation has been useless because no prosecutions have resulted from its use. As a matter of fact, the reason for that is that warning notices have been put up by local authorities and allotment societies all over the country warning people of the penalty, and being a law-abiding nation the ordinary owners of dogs have taken care to keep their dogs under control. If this regulation lapses and no substitute is inserted these warning notices will have to be taken down by local authorities and allotment societies throughout the country, and the obvious reaction of the dog owner will be to think that it no longer matters about food production, and he will let his dogs loose. Therefore I hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, comes to reply, he will scrap his brief and give us a really satisfactory answer.
3.45 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I feel it is now generally accepted on all sides of the House that if agriculture is to play its full part in food production and is to produce anything approaching

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the maximum quantity of food of which the land is capable, then the provision of electricity and water comes high on the list of vital necessities. From the point of view of reducing production costs, it is of paramount importance to have electricity at the farm buildings, not only to drive all the various machines which are required for modern farming, but also in order to be able to make full use of the labour available, for it must be borne in mind that at times during the winter the agricultural worker starts and finishes his labour in darkness, and therefore, if he is not to waste his time, he must be able to work with the aid of electric light during these hours. If your Lordships have seen a man trying to do the ordinary day-to-day maintenance on a tractor by the light of a paraffin lamp, you will realise exactly what I mean. It is an exceptional man who, working in those conditions, will not lose his temper and also a great many nuts and bolts, simply because he cannot see properly.
Now I would ask your Lordships to consider the conditions under which agricultural workers live. There are many amenities which the town dweller enjoys, such as the cinema and the shops just around the corner, and clean and well-lighted streets to walk on, which, by the very nature of his calling, must be denied to the agricultural labourer, at any rate for the foreseeable future. But there are two amenities that surely he is justified in expecting to find, at any rate in the near future, and these are electric light and a clean, reliable water supply. The Ministry of Agriculture published last October the figures of those employed in theindustry at September of this year as compared with September, 1951. These figures disclose that there was a loss to the industry of some 12,000 workers, or 2 per cent. of the total employed. You will appreciate that this is a very serious loss in one year, and to the best of my ability I have tried to analyse the cause of it. As I see it, there is no serious complaint about the basic wage—I think all sides of the industry are reasonably content with that. But, looking around, I feel that the loss is due largely to lack of amenities. The man himself may love his job, but if his wife has to put up with an unsatisfactory well, with having to let down a bucket perhaps four times a day, with outdoor sanitation, with paraffin
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lamps, and so on, she is not going to be a contented woman; and I believe your Lordships will agree that to live in a house with a wife who is not at all contented with her surroundings is liable to make even the best of men consider changing his employment. If we are to stop, or at least to slow down, this trend of rural labour to drift into the towns, we must bring pressure to bear to ensure that electricity and water supplies are brought to even the remotest parts of the agricultural community with the minimum of delay.
If I may, I will now deal with electricity in a little more detail. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power said in another place last May, there were some 81,500 farms already electrified before the industry was nationalised. The latest figures which I have been able to obtain were given by the Minister of Agriculture in October, and they show that there are now 126,000 farms electrified. That suggests a very reasonable advance. But your Lordships must bear in mind that that is still barely one-third of all the farms in the country, and there is a great deal yet to be done. The actual expenditure by the British Electricity Authority for rural electricity has shown a gradual rise since vesting day. For the year 1951-52, it had been planned to spend a sum of £5 million, but, owing to the then economic situation, the previous Government reduced this capital expenditure by £2 million, and instructed that no rural schemes other than those actually in the pipeline, were to be embarked upon. Subsequently the present Government, realising the importance and the urgency of rural electrification, reduced this cut by £1 million. The British Electricity Authority have planned a total expenditure of some £6 million for 1952–53. I do not know if it is possible for the Government to give the House the actual amounts which the British Electricity Authority will be permitted to spend during the years 1952–53 and 1953–54.
I turn to the actual provision of electricity. It has been estimated that to provide the necessary system for complete development and the connection of all prospective rural consumers would entail, at present prices, a capital expenditure of something over £100 million. The main transmission and distribution lines are accepted by the Electricity

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Authority as their responsibility, and they will cost, it is estimated some £20 million. The remaining £80 million represents the connection to the prospective rural consumers. Whilst it is obvious that for such an amenity a prospective consumer must of necessity make a contribution, such a contribution must be within reasonable limits, taking into account his other commitments, such as the provision and maintenance of fixed equipment which is so necessary for economic farming to-day. In the past there have been three methods whereby a prospective consumer made his contribution towards the capital cost of connection. These were a capital sum (which could be paid as a lump sum or as a series of prescribed payments), a rental or a minimum consumption guarantee, or a combination of any of these.
I should like to comment on these three forms of payment. Where a capital sum is demanded, it may well be that a consumer will have to contribute as much as 70 per cent. of the total capital cost of the scheme. To do this he has to raise capital. It is not possible for him to obtain a loan from the Lands Improvement Company for such a purpose, and whilst he may be able to obtain a loan from the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, such a loan would be only at the expense of a mortgage on his property and not on the electrical installation only. Further, by tying up capital in an electricity supply, he may well be unable to carry out other forms of capital investment, such as the provision of new and up-to-date fixed equipment and all the machinery which goes with the electrification of his property. This applies equally and in proportion, both to the estate owner and to the owner-occupier.
A line rental does assist an owner in that included in his payment is the cost of electricity actually consumed by him. This rental, however, remains in perpetuity. It is a form of amortisation of a capital charge. It would appear to me that the third method is the fairest, certainly for an owner, whether he be large or small. By this form of charge the consumer guarantees to take a specific amount of electricity for a given number of years. Should his consumption not reach the guarantee, he pays the difference at the normal tariff rates. The
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excellence of this form of charge is that it encourages a consumer to carry out electrification on his farm in order that he may consume the full amount that he guarantees, which surely is both to his own benefit and, in addition, to the benefit of the area board, in that once having achieved his guaranteed figure he is most likely to continue, even after the given period has lapsed. He is not likely to decrease his consumption once the given period is finished. This latter method is one which has been pressed for by the Country Landowners' Association, of which I have had the honour to be an officer for a large number of years.
I am given to understand that the majority of area boards throughout the country have now agreed to offer a consumer the option of either a capital sum or an annual guaranteed revenue. There remain, however, four boards who continue to insist on compulsory capital sums. In the interests of increased rural electrification, the landowners and occupiers would welcome all boards offering an owner the choice of these two forms of payment. I suggest that, under the Electricity Act, 1947, it is the duty of an electricity board to promote the simplification and standardisation of methods of charge and supply. Also under the Act, to quote Section 6 (1), the Central Authority may give such directions to the area boards as appear to the Central Authority to be necessary or expedient. My Lords, I thank you for bearing with me with the courtesy which you always show to one who addresses you for the first time.
3.56 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, it falls to my lot to discharge the extremely pleasant duty, on behalf of your Lordships, of congratulating the noble Earl who has just sat down on his admirable maiden speech. I am sure we have all been delighted by the extremely thorough grasp which he has shown of his subject. I think your Lordships will agree that the especial value of agricultural debates in this House lies in the connection of those who take part in them either with the land or with the Ministry of Agriculture. We therefore need noble Lords like the noble Earl to enable us to maintain the quality of our debates. We shall look forward to hearing him on

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this subject, which he understands so well, on future occasions. I should also like to say, on behalf of noble Lords who sit on this side of the House, how sorry we are that the noble Lord, Lord Wool ton, cannot take part in this debate. I think it is the first debate on the subject of food production since the present Government came into power which he has missed. I hope that the knowledge of the affectionate regard in which he is held by all who know him in this House will help to speed his recovery.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, said in the course of his remarks that we might well direct our attention this afternoon to the question of what is holding production back. We all agree that the nation needs more food, and I think we all agree also that the land is not producing as much food as it might do. I propose to deal with one or two matters which, in my opinion—though the noble Viscount may not agree—are holding back production. The first is farm rents. Perhaps I can speak more easily about this subject than some of your Lordships who have much greater knowledge and experience than I have—and for this reason. I do not own an acre of land anywhere, and since I am a member of the Labour Party no one can suspect me of even unconscious prejudice in favour of landlords. What worries me, because I think it is a handicap to production, is the gap between the average rent paid by farmers to-day and the economic rent of farm land. An obvious example of this disparity is the difference between what a man can get if he sells his land and what he can get by letting it. I think it is common knowledge that land is expensive to buy but cheap to rent. That broad impression is borne out by the latest figures of gross rents, which can be compared with the pre-war figures. Most uncontrolled prices have risen from 50 to 100 per cent. since the war. That represents the general rise in the price level. But farm rents have lagged far behind other prices. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to give some figures.
In 1938 the average rent of farm land in England and Wales was 25s. 4d. per acre. In 1950, a joint inquiry by the Ministry of Agriculture aid the Country Landowners' Association showed an average figure of 31s. 7d. The present figure—it is only an approximate one—
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is about 33s. 6d. That means that the total average increase in farm rents since the war is not more than 30 per cent. The fact is that rents have risen far less than farm prices, wages or the cost of estate maintenance. I believe this is harmful to agriculture in three ways. It means quite often that the whole rent received only just covers maintenance, with nothing left over for improvements, which are not carried out unless the landlord has outside income or capital. Landlords with capital or income from other sources have been putting it into the land in an admirable and praiseworthy way, but as time passes estate management is bound to deteriorate unless rents are adjusted to meet rising costs. Land owners will find it increasingly difficult to put more back into the land than they get out of it. The second ill-effect of the low level of farm rents is this. The farmer now finds that the cost of rent is the cheapest of his production expenses. Labour is dear; feeding-stuffs, fertilisers and farm equipment are dear, but land is relatively cheap. Sometimes, therefore, he is more concerned to produce as much as he can, per worker employed, and to get a reasonable return on his working capital than he is to increase output per acre. The bad farmer can pay his way to-day without making the best use of good land.
The third ill-effect of under-renting is that it lends colour to the charge of "feather-bedding" the farmer. As your Lordships may remember, because I have said it before in your Lordships' House, I regard this broad charge as being entirely unjustified. Therefore, I regret all the more that low rents for first-class land give a weapon to those who make the charge. The subsidies and price guarantees paid at the moment enable the farmers on poor and marginal land to get along without reducing his output. They cannot give him more than a narrow margin of profit. But the fact that the rent paid for good land is far too low means that public money is adding to the already substantial profit of some people who are fortunate enough to farm the best arable land in the country. I think we shall all agree that, while special consideration should be given to the many smallholders and tenant farmers—and the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, suggested that farmers

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of this kind compose about one-half of the farming community—who cannot afford to pay more rent without reducing their output, the closing of the gap between the prevailing level of farm rents and the economic rent of farm land will increase the efficiency and output of our agriculture.
The next subject with which I should like to deal, and to which I would direct the particular attention of Her Majesty's Government—because this is much more a matter of Government responsibility than is the question of rents—is common land. I hope the Government will act upon the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, in our debate last April, that we should look more closely into the use to which common land is being put. The noble Lord then said he estimated that we have between 1,500,000 and 2,000,000 acres of common land in this country. I believe (the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, will correct me if my information is not accurate) there has been no official survey of common land since 1870, and there is some doubt about the accuracy of that survey, which is now eighty years old and, therefore, quite out of date. We are really in the dark about the exact extent and character of common land, and we are equally in the dark about the manner of its present use and the methods required for its improvement. May I suggest that the Government consider undertaking another survey of common land as soon as possible? This would enable the Government to tell the public—and I know the public wish to know—how common land is being used and what should be done if it is to produce more food. But what I think everyone knows, without this exact information which we ought to have, is that at the present time an enormous amount of this land is wasted. Thousands of acres which might be used, either for crops or pasture, are not used at all, or used only by the commoners for a little rough grazing. The rough grazing that does go on is highly inefficient, because the grass is poor, the grazing area is unfenced and there is no way of regulating the number of animals turned out. The special importance of bringing this land into full production is that it is mainly grass land, and the providing of home-grown animal food will be a limiting factor in the expansion of our livestock.
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There is, of course, a small area of common land which is still cultivated under Defence Regulations. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, told us in April that the Minister would continue to use his powers until they expired in 1954. May I ask the noble Lord now whether he can tell us what will happen at the end of these two years? Are these food-producing acres to be allowed to revert to rough grazing or waste land? I sincerely hope that that will not be the case. We shall all agree that, whatever powers the Government may be obliged to ask for in order to make this common land more productive, due regard should be paid to the long-established rights of the commoners. It seems to me that they would gain, rather than lose, by giving up their theoretical control over the use of common land. They would either receive rent or other payment in lieu of rights which they do not, in fact, exercise, or, if they wished to continue to exercise their rights, they would benefit from the improvement of the land.
I hope the Government will bear in mind the interests of forestry as well as those of agriculture in connection with common land. I go round the country occasionally as a member of a forestry executive, and I have with my own eyes seen land doing nothing, land which would have been acquired for planting by the Forestry Commission if it had not been common land. There must be large areas in the country—this is one of the things we should discover if a survey were taken—where the soil is too poor for cultivation, which are not being used at the moment, but which could grow valuable timber and therefore save a large amount of foreign exchange if the forestry authorities had the power to acquire them. Let us not forget that during the war 20,000 acres of common land were taken over and extremely well cultivated. The food shortage was serious then, but it is still serious. And I am convinced that if in due course the Government would publish a White Paper (which I suppose is the proper procedure in cases of this kind) to show the wastage stage of common land at the present time, and set out the additional powers they would require to make it fully productive, they would have public opinion on their side and Parliamentary support for any legislation they decided to introduce.

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The third topic that I should like to mention is farming efficiency, a matter with which the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, has dealt on several occasions. I hope that I shall again find myself in agreement with him, because it is a comforting thought for any speaker on agriculture. In our last debate on food production there was general agreement about the need for a high standard of farming and a general agreement, I fear, that the present standard of farming is not what it might be. The small minority of sub-standard farmers were described by the noble and learned Earl the Leader of the Opposition as "enemies of society," and the Government agreed with everyone else that such people must mend or end their present ways. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, while emphasising, very properly, the responsibility of the land owners in the maintenance of a good standard of husbandry, acknowledged the responsibility of the Government, which is exercised through the county agricultural committees. Indeed, he went so far as to say that the Minister would ask these committees
"to exercise more freely the r powers of supervision and dispossession,"
if farmers continued to ignore the expert advice at their disposal. I think I am interpreting the sense of lie noble Lord's reply to the debate, but he will no doubt correct me if what I have said is wrong. Six months have elapsed since the noble Lord's statement, and some response should have been obtained from the county agricultural committees. I do not pretend for a moment that it is not too early to judge whether the county agricultural committees will make the contribution they have been asked to make to this drive for efficiency, but we can see how much progress has been made to-day.
The noble Lord was good enough to give me some information which shows the sort of response he has received from the counties. I was glad to know that the county committees are getting a bit "tougher"; and that there have been more dispossession orders this year than last. But I wish I could think—and I am sure we all wish we could take his view—that, in the long term, an increase of only fifteen in the number of these orders would be a sufficient increase. I
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was rather alarmed to find that there are still over 800 farms which have been under supervision for more than a year. My own feeling is that after a short period under supervision—I should imagine not more than a year, as a rule—farmers should be allowed to sink or swim; and if they keep afloat, as we all hope they will do, it should not be by means of a Government lifebelt. May I ask whether the noble Lord shares this view of policy in regard to supervision?
I was also a little concerned to see from the figures given by the noble Lord opposite that there are fewer farms under supervision this year than last. I am not sure what the correct interpretation of the figures is, but I hope it does not mean that the committees have been reluctant to place "B" and "C" farmers under supervision when their standard of husbandry has not improved. I am sure that what we should do is to place these "B" and "C" farmers under supervision if they do not respond to the advice they receive. It is essential, if the efficiency drive is to succeed, that the county committees should play their full part. Of course, as several noble Lords have mentioned, it is difficult, if not impossible, for them to do this without the co-operation with the farming community: that is exceedingly important. But if they should fail, whether through their own fault or anyone else's (and there is no need to try to attach the blame to any particular individual or organisation) I hope that the Government will think out a new procedure to tighten up Part II of the 1947 Act.
I should like now to say a few words about another way in which I think production could be increased. It will be generally accepted that the extent to which we can increase the number of our livestock, which is the most important item in our agricultural expansion programme, will depend on the amount of home-grown feeding-stuffs which we can provide. We cannot afford to import fodder at two or three times the price of the home-grown article. This is a problem for farmers generally, but the Government have a special responsibility to set an example to other sections of the community, and to make good use of the land in their own possession. I wonder

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whether better use might not be made of grass grown on aerodromes. To-day, such grass is either wasted or made into low-quality hay by neighbouring farmers. What I should like to ask the Government to consider is this. Could not county agricultural committees be given responsibility for improving the grass on R.A.F. stations, and for growing the largest amount consistent with operational requirements? If this grass were conserved, either as dried grass or as silage, we should save a large amount in expensive imports of winter keep. The area covered by airfields at the moment is very large. We hope that it will not grow, but it is likely to continue to be large for a considerable time, as I am sure the noble Lord opposite is painfully aware. So I should be obliged if he would look into the possibilities, with the other Departments concerned.
May I now say a few words about capital investment? I am quite convinced that if we are to get this increased food production there must be a sufficient investment next year in new farm machinery, drainage, electrification—a matter which was mentioned by the noble Earl who has just spoken—and in various forms of capital development. This will depend on the priority given to agriculture by the Government in their capital investment programme. I know what a hard fight the Ministry of Agriculture have to get their rightful place on the priority list, but I do hope that the Government will give agriculture the same priority as the defence industries. Agriculture really deserves it, for food is just as essential as arms. Unless agriculture receives this degree of priority, I fear that we shall not get the capital investment on which the production of more food will depend.
In conclusion, may I say this? Although the Government can and should provide the conditions of increased food production (I think that is being done, and has been done by all the Governments since the war), the job can be carried out only by the people who live and work on the land. Cannot responsible members of all political Parties join in a fresh appeal to the public spirit? As the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, said, we must convince public opinion in the countryside. We should, I am sure, be frank with these people and ex-
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plain to them the gravity of the national emergency. Our standard of living has begun to fall. If the present trend of production and export continues, it will fall still further, and only a great and sustained effort by the agricultural community can prevent a catastrophic decline. We can offer the agricultural community two things if they rise to the measure of their responsibility: first, an assured market for every scrap of food they may produce over an indefinite period of time, and, secondly, the gratitude of the nation.
May I suggest to the Government that a fitting way of launching this appeal would be—as two speakers have already suggested, although there was no consultation beforehand, not even between speakers on this side of the House—to convene a conference in London of the leaders of the agricultural community: the representative of the National Farmers' Union, of the two large farm workers' unions, of the Country Landowners' Association and the chairmen of the county agricultural committees. Let me add this suggestion—it has not been made before, and I do not know whether it will commend itself to the other noble Lords who approved of the idea of a conference of this kind. I hope that the Prime Minister might be personally associated with such a conference, and that his address would impart that sense of sharing in an urgent national task which he gave us during the war. No industry gives more unpaid public service than agriculture. I am sure that an appeal of this kind, made in the nation's name to the traditional patriotism and public spirit of all engaged in food production, would not be made in vain.
4.19 p.m.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I should like, first of all, to endorse the tribute which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, paid to my noble friend and neighbour Lord St. Aldwyn, on the excellence of his maiden speech. In that connection, I would say that it is gratifying to some of us who knew and, if I may say so, loved his eminent grandfather, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, to find his grandson coming into the Parliamentary arena and doing something to maintain at Westminster the traditions of the family. I may say, incidentally, that Lord

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St. Aldwyn, who lives in my county is showing himself an extremely progressive farmer and a most enlightened land owner, and we are glad to welcome his recent appointment as the Deputy Chairman of the Country Landowners' Association.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has referred to three or four matters of great importance, some of which have been discussed on previous occasions in this House. I was glad to note that he frankly admitted that farm rents have lagged far behind other agricultural figures. It ought to be realised and emphasised that the average rent of what I may call the ordinary country squire is wholly insufficient to provide, or even to maintain properly, the essential equipment of modern husbandry. It is doing no service to agriculture generally that there should be any attempt to restrict the payment of a reasonable economic rent for the use and occupation of our very limited agricultural land. The noble Earl also referred to common land. This matter has been discussed before, and I do not want to say anything more than this. There is throughout the country a fearful waste of this so-called common land. Geese are supposed to be the privileged animal equipment of common land. They are doing an immense amount of harm, as geese always do to the finer herbage of our pastures.
I do not see my noble friend Lord Hudson in the House, but I should like at once to say that I note with great satisfaction that during last week he found himself the proud possessor of the champion British Friesian cow in this country, with a milk yield of over 3,000 gallons. Had he been here, while congratulating him on that outstanding achievement, I should be a little inclined to question whether that particular cow is, on balance, an economic proposition. I do not want to stress this, but my experience is that, by the time you have put food in at one end and milk comes out at the other, and you have done it three times a day, with the present cost of food and maintenance expenses and with the doubtful advantage of having bovine animals that are doing more than what I may call their normal natural function, it is questionable whether the working life of those animals is really long enough. However, that is by the
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way. The noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, mentioned another matter which is not fully realised by the public, and that is that the taxation of farmers is assessed largely upon what he quite properly called a "paper profit," based upon valuations. In many cases there is no real profit at all. I should like to see the whole system of the taxation of our farming community reorganised and put upon a more equitable basis than it is to-day.
Having in days gone by been the chairman for many years of two of our agricultural research stations—including the oldest and perhaps still the most important one at Rothamsted—I am inclined to agree with what the noble Viscount said regarding research. It is not so much that more research is required, but more abundant application of research already conducted. While thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, for opening this debate, that leads me to say how fully I endorse what he said about the ample provision of appropriate fertilisers. I use the word "appropriate" advisedly, because there are still a certain number of our farmers who do not altogether appreciate the relative value or constitution of the various common fertilisers that are on the market to-day, and because, through a lack of information, there is a certain amount of waste going on in applying, shall we say, nitrogenous fertilisers to crops for which they are not absolutely essential. Of course, all leaf crops require nitrogenous fertilisers, but also phosphatic or potassium fertilisers, the balance of which, with nitrogen, it is so important to maintain.
Referring back to the interesting speech of Lord Hungarton, I noticed that he started by saying that farmers need a firm permanent policy. I hope we are all agreed about that. In my opinion, the sooner the Ministry of Agriculture can make up their mind to embark upon a long-term policy of something like a stable character, the better it will be for agriculture, because it will impart a feeling of security which is so important to farmers generally and, of course, in the best interests of continuous maximum food production in this country. In that connection, we must do more than we have done so far in making our farms more self-contained. We cannot look, as we have in the past, to any large quantity,

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still less an increasing quantity, of animal feeding-stuffs of a concentrated character coming from overseas. In certain parts of the country during the last three or four years we have made farming a more self-sufficient proposition than it was previously, but much can still be done by growing on our land, particularly in the West of England, larger quantities of beans, oats, lucerne and other crops having a high protein content which will make less necessary the importation and use of purchased feeding-stuffs from abroad.
The noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, uttered this remarkable sentence: Some of our farmers are doing well and some are suffering. That leads me to the point I really wanted to emphasise this afternoon. I want to ask this question of this House and of the representative of the Ministry of Agriculture: Are we utilising the land of this country—taking into account fully its regional differences of soil and climate—in the best manner to secure the largest possible amount of the protein foods, starch foods and fats, not to mention vitamins necessary for the sustenance of our population and its vocational efficiency? There is an old legal motto, "Equality is equity"; and in order partly to implement that maxim the farmers generally have been put more or less on a par, as regards what they are expected to produce, in every part of this country—with a loss of equity so far as the consuming public are concerned.
I agree with the noble Lord in commending very highly the two excellent articles which have appeared in The Times newspaper yesterday and to-day. In the course of my long association with the industry I cannot remember a better summary of the present food output of this country and its potentialities. In these articles emphasis is laid upon the fact that in this country we are conspicuously successful in, and well adapted for, animal husbandry—far more so, in fact, than we are, for various climatic and other reasons, for the production of cereal corn. I hold the view strongly that in the best and highest interests of the consuming public the time has come to differentiate in regard to what the farmers grow in, say, the West of England, particularly the South-West, and in Wales, compared with what they grow in, let us say, East Anglia and other Eastern coun-
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ties, arid East Midland counties. if it were found possible to frame a scheme under which we could look preponderantly to the Eastern counties of this country, and particularly to the East Midland counties, to produce the bulk of wheat that we require for the purposes of bread and other starchy foods, and leave it preponderantly to the Western counties and Wales to provide to a much larger extent the animal products, whether milk or meat, than they are doing at present, I am sure that the public, as a result of such a regional arrangement, would in the long run have a far larger quantity of essential food than they have at the present time.
I hesitate to say any more to-day, except that to my mind it is very cheering, particularly to one who tried his best in another place to champion the interests of agriculture when it was at a very low ebb in this country, to find this stimulating and salutary keenness in every part of both Houses of Parliament with regard to our home food production. It is also good to find that there is no material difference in our outlook on this subject. The more we can co-operate—I, too, like the word "co-operate"—not merely in putting our agriculture on a firmer and more stable basis than it is to-day but in keeping up to date (however reluctant some of our "backwoodsmen" may be) by applying the very progressive scientific methods available today, the better it will be for every aspect of the industry, and the more cause the nation will have for gratitude to this generation of Parliamentarians.
4.36 p.m.
LORD RENNELL: My Lords, the debate on economic affairs which is to take place in your Lordships' House to-morrow would, so far as I am concerned, if I had been able to be present, have turned on very much the same subject as that upon which I venture to address your Lordships mow—namely, agriculture. Before commenting on the interesting speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, and those of other noble Lords, there is one thing which I fear it is necessary to say. That is, that it is necessary to remind your Lordships that, athough we are living in a period of rapidly falling commodity prices, the ratio of the prices of raw materials to those of food products is likely to alter,

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and to continue to alter, to our disadvantage. From the increase in world population which was referred to in a debate in your Lordships' House in April last, and from the fact that the acreage of food production in the world is not increasing—indeed, in many countries it is diminishing—that result seems to me inevitable. It is of the utmost importance to this country that the relative cost of food materials to other materials is going to rise. The effect of that, so far as we are concerned, is that as long as we remain in the position of having to import about two-thirds of our foodstuffs from abroad we shall be in a progressively worsening condition, and not in an improving condition.
But it also follows from that fact, as has been revealed in other debates in this House—though it has been too often and too long forgotten in this country—that our balance of payments problem can be more quickly modified by an increase of food production than by any export that we can see any reasonable prospect of being able to achieve. If the present economic position, with falling commodity prices and credit restriction, continues, the difficulty of exporting our manufactured goods must increase; and the rather precarious balance (I think the operative word is "precarious") which we have managed to achieve is not likely to be maintained unless our own food production can be increased in order to economise on our imports as a whole.
The quickest and simplest method—and figures make this very easy to see—is to increase food production from one year to another. Perhaps I may be allowed to give your Lordships a few figures taken from the recent Statistical Review. Take the figure of wheat alone, which for 1952—that is, the current year—is estimated as being likely to be 2,200.000 tons—an increase of 10 per cent. Therefore, a quarter of a million tons of wheat produced here would save us, at the very low figure of landed cost of £30 a ton, 30,000.000 dollars—an economy on our balance of payments alone. We have seen a falling food production in this country regularly for the last four or five years. Some of us had hoped that between the autumn and winter of last year and this year the trend would be reversed. But that is not the
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case. That has not happened. The figures, so far as they are now available —and they need emphasising, regrettable as the figures may appear—show that food production is still falling, and falling, curiously enough, in certain departments of agricultural production to which Her Majesty's Government appear to have paid considerable attention.
Let me take the single case of cattle in connection with the calf subsidies. The figures recently published in the Press show that from September, 1951, to September, 1952, the cattle population has been practically steady; but what is important is that the number of female cattle which are coming into the breeding period has fallen, and not risen. The number of calves has fallen severely. The figures were quoted lately in another place by my friend the honourable Member for the Leominster Division of Herefordshire.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD CARRINGTON): May I interrupt the noble Lord? In point of fact, the figures of calves under one year old from September last year to September this year have increased by about 50,000.
LORD RENNELL: That is a later figure than I have. They have increased by 50,000. Can the noble Lord say from what to what?
LORD CARRINGTON: I have the figures here. These are the figures for England and Wales only, not for Scotland. The figures of male steer calves under one year old were: 411,000 in September, 1951, and 438,000 in September of this year. Female calves were: 1,015,000 in 1951, and 1,036,000 in 1952.
LORD RENNELL: I see. I must modify that. There has been an increase of 50,000 on 1,000,000, which is not a very large increase for the calf subsidy.
The other figures which have fallen, according to the currently published figures, are those for the arable acreage under cultivation. In spite of the ploughing-up subsidies, according to the figures from the last statistical summary the acreage devoted to wheat has fallen from 2,131,000 to 2,030,000, and the total arable acreage, from June to June (these figures are the latest available to me) has

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risen only from just under 18,000,000 acres to 18,077,000 acres, an increase of 79,000 acres in the year. That is a very modest increase in arable acreage after the efforts which have been made to increase it. I wonder what is the reason for this—because more figures of the same sort appear in the current returns. The farmers do not want to produce less to spite anybody, or because they are feeling in a bad mood. The farmers want to produce more in order to make more money. Whatever noble Lords opposite may feel about the profit motive in production, I am quite sure that the farmers would like to produce more in order to make more money. If they are not producing more, there can be only one direct explanation; that is that they do not see how they can make more money on the present scheme and level of production.
The reason why they cannot make more money must fellow: there are only two elements which affect that. One is that the net prices they receive, after paying rents, wages and outgo on farms generally, are insufficient to warrant the greater effort and greater expenditure to produce more on a given farm; or, alternatively—and perhaps it is a combination ofboth—the level of taxation which they suffer after having made a profit removes so much of that profit as to make it not worth their while to try to increase it further. One of these reasons must be responsible. No other explanation is possible, except the absurd one suggesting ill-will.
On the first point, the question of the level of prices, it seems to me that the whole scheme of agricultural prices needs revision. It may be that the principle of paying subsidies, either to cheapen the cost of fertilisers or to increase the number of claves, is a wrong method. It may be that the whole of our price structure in agriculture is wrong method. It may be that the whole of our price structure in agriculture is wrong. Personally, I rather suspect it is. It has always seemed to me what has been described as "Cloud Cuckooland" to pay the farmers who are producing beef cattle a subsidy to keep calves which in any event they are not going to get rid of. It seems curious to pay a guaranteed price for certain cereals and then to import them from abroad at a higher price than is being paid to the farmers—and very often at a higher price than that at which
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they are being resold to farmers, simply in order to give the to give the farmers the subsidy. We know that there are such cases. There was a Question that was answered in another place concerning a purchase of barley from farmers in this country this summer at, I think, £23 or £23 10s. a ton, and the purchase of barley from abroad at from £30 per ton. It is anomalies of that sort, and the effect of subsidies such as I have described, that make me wonder whether the whole price structure of agriculture should not be looked at again.
May I give your Lordships one other example from the experience of those of us who are to-day concerned, as I happen to be, with trying to grow sheep? It is better this year, since the Wool Marketing Board was set up; but two years ago the whole of the increase in the world price of wool was very substantially removed from the farmers and is now sitting as a reserve in the Wool Marketing Board accounts. It is curious, if not ridiculous, to have a scheme which seeks to encourage the growing of sheep on hill farms, subsidising farmers to keep more sheep, and therefore to grow more wool, and then to take the price that the farmers could get from their wool in the open market and put it into a reserve. In other words, you collect the money with one hand and redistribute it with the other, through two bodies, an expensive bureaucratic machinery.
I also find it difficult to understand the figures of subsidies given for cultivation, hill farming and ploughing-up. If the figures which I have heard about the subsidies payable for ploughing up land are correct, they should be reflected in the amount of land which is alleged to be under cultivation. I would ask the noble Lord whether, when he replies, he can explain one apparent discrepancy. Do the returns from the very small amount of additional land which is being ploughed up, whether from permanent grass or from temporary grass, and which is put under cereal and other crop cultivation, bear any relation to the amount which we have been told will be required to pay the subsidy for ploughing up land? The figures which I have bear no relation to one another.
The second point in that connection is one to which I must come back again;

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it is one which I raised in your Lordships' House in April—I refer to the improvement of improvable land. I have had a long correspondence with the noble Lord who is to reply on the subject, and if the noble Lord will allow me to summarise it, the outcome of that correspondence is: yes, we could improve hill land and spend a good deal more money on doing so; but there is only a limited amount of money available for the improvement of agricultural land and we have thought it better flat money should be devoted to improving good land rather than to improving, uncultivated land.
I doubt whether that is the right policy, and on this matter I find some very illuminating figures. The total amount of what is euphemistically described as "rough grazing" appears to be something of the order of 17 million acres. The hill farming and similar schemes to which the noble Lord referred in his reply to me in April are said to be sufficient to deal with the problem. On the other hand, so far as the Welsh hill farm schemes in my own immediate neighbourhood are concerned, I saw this week a report which has been recently published referring to the unexpectedly small amount of improvement which has taken place. The report goes on to say that by June of this year 2,300-odd schemes had been approved formally, representing a total cost of £3½ million; but so far only £200,000 has been paid out in grants—that is, the 50 per cent. grant which is payable—and that considerable difficulty has been found in getting on with the work.
One of the reasons for this alleged in the report—and it is a reason which came out in our debate earlier this year—is that occupiers and land owners have been unwilling or backward in putting up their part of the money necessary for the improvements. My Lords, that really is the whole point of what we were discussing earlier on. Too many landlords and occupiers are not only unwilling but unable to put up the capital to meet their half share or, in the first place, to do the whole of the work and then recover the half share which they will get from their grant. The point is that under conditions to-day the capital is not available to improve land, however many schemes may be approved in theory, and in my experience neither landlords nor farmers
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are, as a general rule, in a position to put up even their own half share, let alone initially the total amount which they have to put up before they can recover the balance. Credit restrictions have made it practically impossible economically to borrow the money, either from banks or from mortgage institutions. The rates asked are such that it is not economical to put improvements in hand, and the margin that is required by lending institutions to do so to-day, with the fall in land values to which the noble Lord referred, makes it physically impossible to raise the money.
I come back to the proposal originally made—that land improvement on a scale which is going to produce a notable increase in our output can only be achieved, either in the form that I suggested then, which is by charging the land with an improvement rate, or by direct contribution of the initial capital by the State, and the recovery thereafter by the State of his share from the farmer, the occupier or the land owner. The present system under which the land owner or the farmer must find the total sum first and then recover a half share has, the report suggests (and I think the figures show it), proved quite unworkable. If this continues, we shall remain in the position of having 17 million acres of rough grazing unimproved for a virtually indeterminate period, and incidentally, I must repeat, incur a great deal of comment and criticism from overseas visitors who come here and see the amount of unimproved land which, in their view and in the view of most of us, could be improved.
My Lords, criticism is all very well, and it may be that I have been too critical of what has or has not been done in the last twelve months; but as each twelve months goes past and nothing happens except a steady fall in the food production of this country, I feel that some more drastic action is required by Her Majesty's Government to effect a change. If that change is going to be effected by a conference such as has been suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, and with which the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and other speakers have found themselves in agreement, let the conference be held; but let the terms of reference be such as will enable the whole price structure of the agricultural industry to be reviewed, to see whether or not we can get on to a

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more rational basis for agriculture, rather than offer driblets of subsidies here and there which in fact have produced no visible results, or scarcely visible results, in the last five years. Let us get away from these wild schemes by which we remove half the price of a Welsh farmer's wool from him and then give it back to him as a hill farming subsidy. The time has come in which the use of palliatives—these remedies of a subsidy here or a subsidy there—must be reconsidered if the problem that we are facing is to be solved. I repeat, the problem that we are facing is, first of all, that of maintaining the rather precarious favourable position that we have achieved on our balance of payments, but, above all, that of seeking to find enough food to live on over the course of the next few years in a world in which., so far as we are concerned, the exportable surplus of food is going to rise in value and fall in quantity.
4.58 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, rising at this time in the debate I find myself somewhat at a loss as to what to say. I had prepared careful notes of a speech that I wished to make, but I find that already noble Lords on this side and opposite have said very much the same as I myself intended to say. Perhaps I may commence, however, by voicing the hope that the Government wilt take note of this debate; that they will not be too complacent about this matter but will bring into the campaign for agricultural production such a drive as we all wish for, so that in the years to come the agricultural Industry can produce the foodstuffs which the nation requires. I have read the review in the Prorogation speech of last year's work by the Government, and I read the mention of agriculture in the gracious Speech last week. But in neither speech do I find any hope at all for the production of foodstuffs in this country, unless the Government come forward, preferably with a long-term plan which will put matters right.
In passing, I wish to make a few remarks concerning some of the speeches which have already been delivered this afternoon. In congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Rennell on the very open speech that he made from the Government Benches, may I say that I hope the Government themselves will take note of what their supporters are saying in this House and in another place, for
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it is obvious that many of them, both here and there, are not at all satisfied with the present position? The noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, referred to a deadlock, and speaking of the progress already made during the last year, suggested that although progress has been made in some directions, it has not been sufficient. I think I am able, at this stage, to say that, although the Labour Government have been attacked in many directions for the work they did, or left undone, they cannot be accused of handing over to the Government of the present day anything but a very fine legacy in regard to agriculture.
VISCOUNT HUDSON: My Lords, I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord, but since he has referred to me I must tell him that, although I did not indulge in the luxury of Party controversy, I refrained from doing so only because I thought it was right on such an occasion as this. I refrained from referring to the terrible conditions which his Government handed on to the present Government only because I wanted to keep this subject out of the realm of Party politics. But if he is going to talk like that, I shall feel disposed to take an early opportunity of reminding him of some things that his Government did not do.
LORD WISE: I was talking entirely of agriculture. If what I say upsets the noble Viscount opposite, I will leave that point and go on to another, with which perhaps he will not disagree. In the course of his speech, he referred to the fact that there was a moral obligation on the land owners and farmers of this country to treat their land as a heritage of great value. I certainly agree. There is also a moral obligation on the Government to do the same; to see to it that the land of this country is properly farmed and, generally speaking, is utilised in the best possible way and made as productive as possible.
The noble Lord, Lord Rennell, referred to the question of improving improvable land. I was coming to that matter, because I believe that there is a vast acreage of land in this country which can be improved, and which can be made to produce foodstuffs. I am encouraged in that respect by the presence of the noble Earl, Lord Iveagh. It is my good fortune on many occasions to travel through his estate, and, if I may say so,

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it is remarkable what a tremendous improvement has been made in the land in and around that area during the last few years. The noble Earl deserves the thanks of the whole community for the operations which he has carried out and is putting forward in that respect. To me it is clear that what has happened at Elveden can happen in other parts of the country. I think that one of the jobs—if I may use that word—of the agricultural executive committees is to devote their attention (I am sure they can do so with very good profit) to seeing, in every county, whether there is not land which can be brought back into cultivation or can be cultivated as it has never been cultivated in the past.
Having sought to impress upon the Government the necessity for action in this respect, as so many other noble Lords have done before me, I do not want to reiterate that part of my speech. But I want to refer to what I consider are certain weak spots. The noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, has spoken on the question of barley. If I may say so, with all due deference to those who are concerned, I think that the handling of the barley crop this year has been a tragedy. Admittedly, the prices received by the growers for the barley crop for 1951 were exceptionally high, but the Government, in view of their aim of ensuring stability in the industry, should never have allowed barley prices this year to fall to the extent to which they have fallen. This is a serious matter. The noble Viscount opposite shakes his head, and possibly he disagrees with me. I insist, however, that the position, so far as barley is concerned, and so far as the returns of the farmers are concerned, is serious.
Figures quoted by my noble friend suggested a reduction of 50 per cent. Possibly that figure was a little too high, but figures suggested by the prices of last year and those paid this year are on these lines. If a farmer received, say, £5,000 for his barley of the 1951 harvest—that is in the beginning of this year and the latter end of last year—the same yield, at present prices, would fetch only somewhere in the region of £3,000. There would therefore be a reduction in the farmer's returns of £2,000. That is a very serious matter for the farmer, because it means that he has £2,000 less from his returns to spend in other directions. It
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means that the purchasing power of the agricultural community is decreased by many millions of pounds. If my figures are correct, the production of barley of the 1952 harvest in the United Kingdom will be in the region of 11,000,000 quarters. The loss on this 11,000,000 quarters, as compared with last year, at £4 per quarter—if that is the right figure—will be no less than £44 million. That is a pretty big inroad into the returns of the farming community.
The reaction of the farmer will obviously be the same as it has been in the past in similar conditions. This means that next year he will not be disposed to grow the barley or other cereals which may be required. In the past, when prices have gone up and down, the farmer has given up producing a particular commodity after finding the price paid to him in the preceding year unfavourable. In my view, that state of affairs can be avoided by—if I may use the expression—proper planning, so far as the price structure is concerned, and control of the commodities concerned, so that, year by year, the difference to the farmer is not likely to be so great and the farmer is not likely to lose confidence in the production of a particular commodity.
There is another matter to which I wish to refer—namely, the question of rents. It is obvious that the average rent paid in this country is low. On present rents the capital expenditure necessary on many farms and estates cannot be carried out. There is a scheme afoot, which will be published in a few days' time I think, to allow farm rents to be fixed at an economic figure and make provision from them for the improvement of buildings and equipment. I am glad to say that in the main land owners have been very lenient about rents during the last few years, but the fact remains that if rents increase unduly it is likely to be serious for the farmers.
Another matter of great importance for agricultural prosperity which has been touched on is the credit facilities and borrowing powers of the industry. I think this can be well illustrated by a case I have in mind. I know a farmer who during the war rented a farm of an annual value of £500. It became necessary for him to purchase the farm and he had to borrow the money to do so. Unfortunately for him, he had to borrow the money

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after the interest rates had been increased, and the result was that instead of paying a rent of £500 a year he is now faced with interest charges of £1,100 a year—a tremendous increase for him to have to meet. The gracious Speech refers to the need for reducing costs, and I hope that consideration will be given by the Government to the question of reducing interest rates charged by the banks and other concerns to the farming community. Cheap money is supplied by the Government for municipal and other operations, and I think it is highly desirable that the food-producing industry should receive similar consideration by the Government. In the past it has been suggested that an agricultural credit bank should be set up, whereby the capital required by the industry for equipment and improvement could be supplied at a reasonable rate and money could be put into the industry for productionpurposes at a lower rate than has to he borne by the industry at the present time.
I do not wish to speak for any greater length of time, but I want to refer to two other; matters. The first is the question of manpower. It has been said in your Lordships' House this afternoon that during the past year we have lost 19,000 regular workers from the industry. To some extent that loss has been made up by part-time married women, but that is not at all satisfactory from many points of view. In order to retain the young men who are leaving the industry, I hope the Government will consider active steps to provide smallholdings. The Acts are on the Statute Book and all the means for providing them are there. If it is impossible for the county councils to provide smallholdings to the extent required by the demand, the Government should set up and give authority to some body, composed of experienced and practical men, in order that the smallholdings policy, which has been accepted by this Government as it was by the late Government, may he brought into fuller operation. I realise the difficulties about the purchase and equipment of land, but if we continue to lose our manpower at the rate of 19,000 a year the industry will suffer badly. My next point is about horticulture. In the past much has been said in this House about schemes for setting horticulture on its feet. I hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, comes to reply he will have
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something to say to horticulturists about the possibility of some sort of stability, and eventual prosperity, for their industry.
I have informed the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that I wish to refer to one particular item—it is not the same sort of item as that to which the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, referred at the end of his speech. I want to call attention to the fact that in the Fen country the concrete, cemented roads which were laid during the war and, I believe, just previous to the war, are becoming dilapidated. I am told that in the first instance the roads—some of them main roads going from place to place, and some roads coming to a dead end, but serving productive land on either side—were badly constructed. They are on foundations on which it is difficult to construct roads. The fact is that they are now in bad repair, and in a few years' time, unless something is done to put the matter right, will be unusable by mechanical implements or lorries; and highly cultivated land, which has been brought into cultivation generally from grassland and grazing land, will revert to its original state.
It is felt that the Government should take a hand in maintaining and improving these roads. The tenants of the land alongside these road-ways would find great difficulty in expending the necessary money for repairs, as indeed, would the drainage boards concerned. Therefore, I have suggested to the noble Lord opposite that the Government should give some indication, not only to the drainage boards but also to those people who have to use those roads, that the necessity for improvement is recognised, and that some contribution may be made to the expense. I wish to conclude with an assurance from this side of the House that we who are interested in agriculture will be behind any drive which the Government can make to increase the supplies of foodstuffs needed for our people, on the basis that those who work for our benefit in tilling the fields, harvesting the crops and looking after our stock will receive fair and just rewards for their labours.
5.24 p.m.
LORD GLENTANAR: My Lords, in this exceedingly interesting and important debate one point I should like to make

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is on the question of the use of land which is suitable for producing food. Much might be said about the insidious and progressive use of good farming land for aerodromes, housing schemes, arterial roads, and so on, but I will not attempt to go into that question, because I do not feel qualified so to do. I only express the hope that agricultural authorities will keep their eyes well open, and that we may rely in this matter on the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, who have taken over the functions of the former Ministry of Town and Country Planning. The two other uses of land on which I should like to speak first are uses which may, but need not, compete—and my remarks in this connection are almost entirely in connection with Scotland, with which country I am most familiar. The two uses to which I refer are both important—namely, the production of food and the production of timber. The Forestry Commission have already acquired extensive lands in Scotland for the growing of trees. In my view, it is fortunate that the last word in matters of policy and administration in forestry rests, under the Forestry Act, 1945, in the hands of the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is also responsible for farming interests. Thus, there is an arbiter who can deal with situations where these interests might he antagonistic.
I believe it is important to realise that he may—and I think any Minister may —reconsider decisions already taken before the setting up of the present machinery, if a change of decision can be shown to be both desirable and practical. Why I refer to that is that there are cases where certain areas have already been acquired by the Forestry Commission, but where actual planting has not started, and where it has now been found that the land is suitable for purposes of hill cattle. That matter may have to be reconsidered. A further point I should like to make in that connection is that advisory bodies—and both the Department of Agriculture and the Forestry Commission in Scotland have these advisory bodies, which are usually made up of men, not only of the particular interest, but of other interests as well—canoften bring about a reconciliation between the interests before the matter becomes a major issue, and before
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it has reached Ministerial or high departmental level. That is a good thing whenever it can be done, because the machine goes on. When a big planning programme has been undertaken and possibly houses have been built, it is difficult to reverse the process. In the matter of co-operation between forestry and agriculture—namely, the planting of shelter belts and large shelter blocks of timber—progress is being made with certain important schemes. There is no happier way in which these two great industries can be married together. There are in Scotland many great windswept straths and glens which considerable quantities of trees would greatly improve for agriculture.
On the question of the development of productivity on existing farm lands, I should like to refer to what has already been said by other noble Lords as to the careful and wise use of fertilisers. Also, the great waste which is going on in the natural fertilisers, such as liquid manures from byres, to use the Scottish word—cow-houses—should not be allowed. In many cases it runs down the drains into the sea, instead of being put back on to the land. The best use should be made of farmyard manure and waste vegetable products, or things which are treated as waste products, such as straw. They should not be burned or sold for other purposes, but should go back to the land from which they sprung.
Much has been said about the agricultural committees, and I should like to say that these men do a hard, difficult and often unpleasant job. I do not think they get enough recognition for what that job involves. They are having a great deal to do now in the classification of farms, and they sometimes need some help in getting round the country to fulfil their task. With regard to the extension of marginal and hill lands, it is unfortunate that we have not with us to-day my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh, who, as we all know, is Chairman of an important Commission which is looking into this matter, and from whom we hope to receive a very interesting report before long. Both these important matters—the development of productivity on existing farms and also the extension of the marginal and hill lands—require capital and labour, and I doubt very much whether, even at the high rate of interest, the full agricultural credits are available

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to farmers in such measure as they should be. I know that they have increased greatly since the end of the war, but your Lordships who farm—and there are many here who do—know the enormous cost of mechanisation. When one scans the figures—I will not trouble your Lordships with them—I often wonder whether the amount of capital available to the farmer to day is sufficient. Capital is needed in the production of winter keep in the hill farms. In many cases it means that lands near the farm house or the steading have to be fenced so that crops may be grown for the winter, and without buying fencing this cannot be done.
More than one of your Lordships have referred to the fall in the labour force since 1943, and, as your Lordships know, a great deal of criticism has been expressed because National Service has unfortunately to be undertaken, usually by the most energetic man on the farm. Undoubtedly this does hit very hard the small farmer who may have only one or two men to help him. He finds it very hard to replace such a man at all if he is in an out-of-the-way part of the country. With regard to the economics of the problem, I wonder whether we can still afford a policy designed to produce milk and beef to the same extent, both in the winter and in the summer. If more of our beef could be slaughtered in the autumn and put into cold store, we should save a great deal of winter feeding; and, similarly, if the dairy cattle could be allowed to breed more in their natural season, we should have a larger surplus of summer milk which could be processed into cheese and dried milk for the winter. When I put this point to the experts, I am always told that we have neither the cold storage nor sufficient creameries to deal with these supplies. But if a real economy could be effected in this matter, I think Her Majesty's Government should look into the possibilities of making such a policy more possible. On the same score, I feel that our dairy herds should contain more dual purpose animals, and also that in our purely specialised dairy herds more of the cows should be mated with beef bulls, so that instead of having a large proportion of calves killed when they are a few days old we should be able to bring the majority of them to maturity as beef.
I feel that the basic need of our farmers is not an ever-changing pattern of incen-
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tives and admonitions, but the creation of a condition of stability and continuity. Such a condition is necessary for the expenditure of capital for development—not only the capital represented by money, but also the capital of energy and hard work. This, as many of your Lordships have emphasised, requires a long-term policy, avoiding constant changes in conditions, incentives and rewards. Such a policy can be achieved and carried out only by the co-operation of all political Parties. It will require the realisation on the part of the farming community of the responsibility it bears in the future of our country, and it will require on the part of the very large proportion of our people who live in towns and cities a greater measure of understanding of the small proportion who live and work in the country. The co-operation of the town dwellers as relatives, as consumers and as voters, must be ensured, and I feel that this can be achieved only by raising agriculture above Party considerations and giving it the place which, as a David confronted with the Goliath of economic menace, it rightly deserves.
5.38 p.m.
THE EARL OF HALIFAX: My Lords, the Motion for which the House is indebted to the noble Lord opposite, and the speeches that have been made on it, are the measure of the revolution that has overtaken agriculture in the last five and twenty years. I well remember the time when I had the honour of being for a brief while Minister of Agriculture, and when I had the privilege of being associated very closely in that capacity with the noble Viscount who sits beside me, and whom the House was so pleased to hear a short time ago. I recall how in those days one used to wrestle for thousands of pounds and felt oneself very fortunate if one got anything at all for what was then the Cinderella in the national house party. Now how different it is! It is, of course, true, as almost every noble Lord has observed to-day, that the hard pressures of international trade and business hive had, and so far as we can see are likely to go on having, the result of making it impossible for any Party to deny to agriculture a place of primary importance in the economy and life of the nation. Therefore, it comes about that on no industry more than on this, the oldest and greatest of our industries, do we all more directly or

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indirectly depend to support life amid what I may call the mingled comforts and austerities of the Welfare State. That is almost common ground between us all at this time.
The broad result of those pressures, coupled with the general predictions of world shortages that I venture to say have constituted a revolution, has been a fuller understanding by all our people of the business of agriculture and its difficulties—an understanding not confined to those directly concerned. In the second place, it has had the result of bringing the teachings of science from the lecture room and laboratory into the general field of agricultural custom and practice to an extent that would have been judged impossible thirty years ago. And by so doing it has enabled agriculture to make a real and growing contribution. But when one has said that, I think there is a double-headed rider that one ought to add to it. The first head is this. Although there is a fuller understanding of agricultural problems in the minds of those who have no direct connection with agriculture, a great many people are still a very long way indeed from recognising what a very domineering and wayward partner is nature, with whom the agriculturist has to work. In a few minutes she can convert what looks like almost certain profit into almost a certain loss. And although the cultivator takes it as part of his work, accepts it and recognises it, it certainly has, and is bound to have, the effect of preventing agriculture from ever being a very exact science; it is a kind of danger against which no amount of "featherbedding" will ever protect the agriculturist.
The other head of the rider that I would wish to add—and here I find myself in agreement with other noble Lords who have spoken—is that although in my judgment a good deal has been done to improve the standards, much still remains to be done, and much can be done. The noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, spoke of the importance of the three partners in all this business: the land owners, the cultivators and the agricultural workers. It is vitally important, in my opinion, that conditions should be such as to give to each of these partners an incentive to do his best. I think it is fair to say, if agriculture to-day is more
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prosperous than it has been at any time in the last fifty years, that it is the land owner, the supplier of fixed capital equipment, upon whom the burdens to-day rest most heavily.
In case any noble Lord may not entirely follow me in that observation, let me amplify it. The rise in the cost of living, I think we may not unfairly say, has been taken reasonable care of by the adjustments made by the Agricultural Wages Board and by other measures. That increase in the cost of labour is, of course, reflected—again I think not unreasonably—in the Annual Price Review, which is of great assistance to the cultivator. But there is no such countervailing relief available to the owner for the consequential increase on his general estate labour. This is largely responsible for the steadily increasing costs of estate maintenance and management to-day, to which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, referred. That increased expenditure is something that no owner can avoid.
The habits of those engaged in farming are changing; and quite rightly. More people are going in for improved grass cultivation, and for ley farming, which demands the laying on of water and the like; and the mechanisation of which we have heard much demands better farm roads. The noble Lord, Lord Wise, had something to say on this matter. It also demands the provision of new implement sheds, because the old ones do not lit the new implements. These things, too, demand electricity, about which the noble Earl. Lord St. Aldwyn, spoke. One could go on indefinitely on these matters. And all the time the human standard is rising. People want bathrooms and inside water closets. It is right that they should have these things, but they are all very expensive to provide. And, of course, speaking generally, the farmer, from his point of view, with expensive labour and scarcity of labour, also wants to have as much and as good fixed equipment as he can.
From every angle, therefore, this pressure on owners is, by and large, in spite of considerable Government help in the way of minor subsidies for particular operations, increasing all the time with the consequences to which Lord Listowel has drawn our attention. I fully recog-

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nise that the owner to-day is not ungenerously treated by the Government in the matter of tax relief and Government loans and grants to which he may be entitled. And I permit myself one general observation. I think that if the Government were really convinced, as I have no doubt they are, that our system of land tenure is the most economical from the national point of view, and if circumstances made it possible to give vitality to their conviction, they would so act as to show it. There is one thing that any Government could do, than which nothing could be more beneficial: they could revise the death duties which, year by year, are causing the break-up of agricultural estates.
But, quite apart from that matter, the fact remains that these pressures, year by year, month by month, are making it more difficult for owners to keep pace with modernising demands unless they can do it out of capital or invoke outside resources. Either of those courses is within the power of only a limited number, and neither can last very long. If that is so, where is the remedy to be found—because it has a great deal to do with the productivity for which the noble Lord opposite pleads? Partly, no doubt, by the adjustment of rents and of interest rates on capital improvements, both of which, as has been recognised by more than one speaker this evening, have lagged a very long way behind the rise of other general costs, and both of which occupy a place that is almost insignificant in the farmer's budget, compared with his cost of labour and general costs of cultivation. Although, however, the rent may occupy an insignificant place in the farmer's budget, the aggregate number of several increases of rental may make a difference, even a great difference, to the owner who is struggling to modernise his estate.
Help can also be sought, I think, by recognition of the fact that, as a long-termproposition, whether or not the modernisation of an estate is to be judged economically sound must always depend to a considerable extent upon the efficiency or inefficiency of the cultivating tenant. By that I mean—and although this may not be universally acceptable I am satisfied that it is true—that at the present time, tenants, good and bad, enjoy a degree of security of tenure that is
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quite unnecessary for the good tenant, whom nobody dreams of trying to disturb, but which allows a moderate tenant to sit back and make little effort to do better. The present interpretation of legislation is having the effect of causing many owners to hesitate to give the moderate tenant notice on the ground of bad husbandry, except in perfectly cast-iron cases; and all the time, as every land owner in this House will know, every land owner has a waiting list of keen young chaps who want to gel into farming, who want to make a start but cannot. Many of these young men have, therefore, drifted off—and all good luck to them!—to find new fortunes and hopes in the Dominions, when we ought to have them here. Therefore I believe that if the bad tenant enjoyed a little less security of tenure it would be good for agriculture; it would give encouragement to the better tenant, and would enable the young fellows to start. It would also be fair to the owner and the general level of production would be raised.
That means that the agricultural committees, to which reference has also been made more than once this afternoon (and I agree with the noble Lord who, I think, spoke last, that great, thanks are due to them), must be more ready to give certificates of bad farming than they have been in the past. It is no doubt proper that the farmer who is challenged should have a right of appeal, but if an owner gives notice to a tenant on the; ground of bad farming t think it is, worth considering whether, when the case comes before the agricultural committee the onus of proof might not be turned round, so that, instead of the owner having to prove that the tenant has farmed badly, the tenant should have to prove that he has farmed well. That is rather a subtle difference but, human nature being 'what it is, I suspect that the effect might be to secure a higher level of farming. I have no doubt that if all farmers were even as good as the second best the level of production in this country could be raised substantially. Incidentally, one effect of this would be that the critics would no longer be able to say that the friendly dew of Government help descended equally on the just and the unjust, and the agricultural industry would be able to make a much more substantial contribution to meeting our needs even than it is making to-day.
5.56 p.m.
LORD MELCHETT: My Lords, I think that anyone who listened to the debate on food production in your Lordships' House in April cannot fail to have been profoundly impressed by the opinions expressed on all sides about the imperative importance of producing more food in this country. The noble Lord, Lord Rennell, emphasised that particular aspect of this subject this afternoon. Although it is only six months since the debate to which I referred, it is probably an opportune time to review what has happened during those six months. Those of your Lordships who are in touch with the agricultural industry may know that although the official statistics for this year's harvest are not yet published and we do not know exactly what the results of various measures that have been introduced by the Government have been—we do not know yet exactly how much production has gone up or down—most people have a feeling that we are not getting, the results that they hoped for in April.
I join with the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, in feeling that this is the right moment to try to find out what is holding us back. Everyone now agrees that we must produce more, but there may be certain factors which have come into play which were unexpected at the beginning of the year and which are now holding us back. It may be that it is a question of the degree of importance which is being attached to the drive for home food production, as opposed to other forms of industrial production in this country. I believe that this is a matter of the greatest importance. In the regrettable absence of the noble Lord, Lord Wool ton, I should like to quote just two sentences from a speech he made in April in the food debate to which I referred. The noble Lord, Lord Wool ton, said:
"For reasons of defence, we know that we must grow the maximum amount of food at home. To preserve and stabilise our currency, we must grow the maximum amount of food at home. Britain's agriculture is Britain's biggest dollar saver."
If those three reasons for increasing food production are the three primary pillars on which we base the whole food production drive, and taking into account the urgency and the precarious position in which our balance of payments and dollar resources are placed at the present
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time, my feeling is that we have not yet transferred that sense of urgency into the food production drive.
Looking back over the results of these last six months of the farming year, which is the most productive time of the year, when we really see what is being produced as a result of the planning of the other six months of the year, the impression which I have gathered is that there is a widening gap between the results obtained by the application of the best practices and the results that are obtained by people following the more usual practices of farming. That is really the measure between our actual production and our potential production, and I think it is very great indeed. If, as the noble Lord, Lord Wool ton, said, maximum production is the target we are looking for, I believe that in the last six months we have failed. We have not only failed to achieve maximum production—because, quite obviously, in six months that is impossible; it is going to take a great many years—but I believe that so far we have failed to set out in the right direction.
Rather than the great sense of urgency which the whole problem demands, I think one detects a slight sense of frustration in the industry at the moment. We are called upon on all hands to produce more, and yet in many spheres one finds that there are endless obstacles which, as compared with the importance of the task in hand, seem to be put in the way quite unnecessarily. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, may feel that only six months after the Farm Price Review and halfway into this farming year is too early a time to judge whether or not we are going in the right direction; but, again in April, the noble Lord, Lord Wool ton, said that now that the Farm Price Review was settled, the Farmers' Union and the Government were going to sit down together to work out a policy, the object of which would be to give farmers the confidence to embark upon a policy of long-term food production. So far as I know, we have not yet had any indication of whether a long-term policy has been settled, or whether its broad outlines have been settled.
It would be of great value to the agricultural industry if the outline of the long-term policy could be settled and made known at the earliest possible

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Opportunity—preferably before next spring, which is the normal time of the annual Price Review. What is not planned during this autumn—that is, before Christmas—will not be put into operation next year; missing a month or two at this time of the year means missing at least one harvest's production and almost eighteen months of actually putting the policy into practice on the farms. Even if the annual Price Review has not been published, I do not think one can emphasise too much the importance of outlining the broad lines of policy for the production of livestock and crops for the next several years.
I see that the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, has left the House. I know that he is not in favour of, or does not agree that it is necessary to have, a long-term policy or guarantees. He explained in an earlier debate in your Lordships' House, that the mere shortage of world food supplies and increasing prices were a sufficient guarantee. But if that had been the case, I think by now we should have had a higher level of production in this country. In actual fact, the use of subsidies on imported food and imported feeding-stuffs, which is one of the most important raw material supplies to the agricultural industry of this country, can remove the automatic guarantee or incentive for farmers to produce more in this country. In the last five or maybe seven years, I think the subsidies have, to a certain extent, done that. We have not really felt the full impact of higher import prices because they have been cushioned by the very high rate of food subsidies.
The agricultural industry requires guarantees and a programme from Her Majesty's Government. It is well aware that the free play of economics is not going to produce this guarantee automatically, and the Government, which virtually controls the industry at all stages, can always, at short notice, adjust the relative position of agriculture in regard to other industries. People talk of farmers as being free to increase production over and above any particular target set by the Government, but in practice everything connected with the industry is controlled—capital investment, all the basic costs, prices and profit margins. To all intents and purposes the industry is nationalised, and I think it is impossible to expect an all-out drive for greatly in-
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creased production unless the lead comes clearly from Her Majesty's Government, both as regards the actual quantity of food which it is planned that we should produce and the programme—that is, the time in which it is going to be clone. Are we going to set an eight, a ten or a fifteen year programme? I am sure that this is a prerequisite to getting any substantially greater quantity of food produced than we are producing at the moment.
On October 17 in another place, in the course of a debate, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries stated that the extra food production in this country must be achieved without any greatly increased amount of capital or labour. I think it is that particular attitude, which has been manifest during the last six months, which has led to a great deal of uncertainty in the minds of people concerned with agriculture. It is really impossible to look forward to greatly increased production without the employment of more capital and labour. There is hardly any project in the agricultural field in which production can be increased without the employment of more capital, either fixed or working. Probably the shortage of capital and the small amount of national resources which has been set aside for agriculture is one of the greatest brakes on production at the moment, and it is certainly conditioning the amount of the increase that we can expect at the present time. In the Economic Survey for 1951 it is shown that the total addition to the net national fixed equipment was of the order of £1,860 million, and of that amount only £80 million, or 4½ per cent., went to agriculture; and that has since been cut by 15 per cent. It is hardly in keeping with the urgency of the problem and the contribution which the industry can make to the national balance of payments and to the solving of the economic crisis if we are to set aside now, for this vital industry, less than 4½ per cent. of our annual capital investment.
My Lords, I believe that a revolution in outlook and in action is imperative if we are going to get more than a very slight increase of one commodity or another commodity in the next few years. I think Her Majesty's Government have to state clearly what the target is. Do we want to produce two-thirds of our total food requirements, or three-quarters, and by what date? We must have some

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definite programme. It must be agreed to what extent the national resources in the form of labour, investment, steel and so on are going to be allocated to agriculture, in much the same way as a definite programme is established for defence. Until that is done I cannot see how we are going to get sufficient confidence and urgency into the food production drive to bring about more than virtually insignificant increases in the amount of food produced in this country.
It is always dangerous to criticise what is being done without having any suggestions to make in its place. At this late hour, I do not want to detain your Lordships with a lot of suggestions as to precisely the lines on which increased production should be planned. I should like to follow other noble Lords in suggesting that a new national plan should be worked out, whether by a conference on the lines that have been suggested or by such other machinery as is thought suitable. There is, undoubtedly, a great need for a fresh approach to the whole problem. That, I think, should be one of the first moves, a sort of clearing of the decks, before it will be possible to get much done on the practical side of food production. Another early move which I feel to be necessary, but which has so far been insufficiently appreciated, is to try to remedy the extreme lack of storage in this country for almost every type of agricultural product. One noble Lord has referred to the shortage of storage capacity for meat, and plant for the conversion of liquid milk into cheese has also been mentioned. Those are two forms of storing what we naturally produce during the summer—the summer being the cheapest time of the year for producing food, and the best time for producing grass—and carrying it over into the winter months. We have an equally pressing, problem to deal with in the matter of storage of grass itself, which is our most important crop. Our equipment for the drying and storage of grass and also for the drying and storage of grain is still hopelessly inadequate.
We saw the extraordinary position during this harvest in which the Ministry of Food started exporting barley. It was stated at the time that there was a clear balance of payments advantage with the European Payments Union, but it seemed to be generally accepted in the trade that the most pressing problem was the storage
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for this year's grain. Having examined the Board of Trade's account for September, we find that the barley which was exported went out of the country at £35 6s. per ton. The average price paid this year for imported barley has been £37 15s. The actual price in September was £38 9s. and the top price paid in September was £45. So 12 per cent. of the additional grain—assuming the extra 1,000,000 acres ploughed up produced a ton each—we have exported. I suggest that was because we did not have sufficient storage room for it. And we are going to have to buy back additional grain during the winter at higher prices. It is absolutely essential that we should realise that it is not possible or even worth while to enter into schemes to produce greatly increased quantities of food in this country unless, hand in hand with that programme, we provide adequate storage facilities to carry these products over from the summer into the winter months.
Those are only one or two of the vital prerequisites for producing greatly increased amounts of food. I think, most of all, it is essential to have a complete change of attitude a change of mind; and I am very doubtful whether, as certain noble Lords have suggested, the change of mind needs to come from the public or needs to be instilled into the public. I am not at all sure that the public are not in some ways ahead of opinion, both in Whitehall and generally in industry. Certainly, the national Press has taken the initiative in several directions to point out the extent to which we are lagging behind in taking what appear to be essential steps recognised on all sides. I suggest that the first step ought to be to re-examine the policies of Her Majesty's Government to see whether, in fact, there is sufficient priority in essential materials and capital investment, and adjustment of prices between imported foods and prices paid to farmers in this country—whether all these arrangements are, in fact, in keeping with the urgency of the problem and the declared aim of the Government's policy to produce the maximum amount of food which can be produced in this country.
6.16 p.m.
THE EARL OF IVEAGH: My Lords, I shall not keep you long because I did not come to your Lordships' House with any prepared speech. But the noble Lord, Lord Wise, unfortunately or fortunately,

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has galvanised me into thinking I ought to say something. It seems to me that practically every speaker, in one way or another, has raised questions which depend on money, money, money. And how are you going to get it? Take the reclamation of land. That is a matter on which any amount of money can be spent. I have no doubt that if you take land that is unsuitable now for agricultural purposes you can eventually make it into decent land; but that means the expenditure of more and more money. Again, it seems to me that you want more cottages. This also calls for more capital. More electricity is needed, and that means more and more money. More capital is called for every time. I am glad that I do not sit on the Front Benches and so have to work out how the money is to be found. I hope that some means will be devised of getting the capital which is needed, so that we can get the food. I have mentioned cottages and electricity. Of course if you want people to live in the cottages they will say that they want electricity. More electricity means money, money, money; or, if you like to call it so, capital. That is the problem we have before us, and it seems to me that we have somehow got to solve it.
I agree that there is always the danger that capital may be used in the wrong way. But I feel that we have to face the problem, nevertheless. I think we have, in the first place, to try to see to what extent land can be improved without the expenditure of a great deal of capital. It may be that one thing that is required is the increased use of fertilisers. Another thing which may be needed is better drainage—and in this connection I must say that drainage is infinitely better now than it was ten years ago. As we know, it is necessary to do things in a hurry, but even if they are done in a hurry that means a matter of years before we reach the goal at which we are aiming. If we are to get the food for which we are all looking it seems to me that we must convince everyone that it is essential that more money should be put into the industry. As we have been told, there is great need for better facilities for storage of produce keep it from one summer to another. If we are going to do without buying from abroad, we must have storage or money. It is ridiculous to think that
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we should have to buy all our food. But we must have the means of making it possible for us to produce our food. The land is there, but we cannot tell how much it will produce until we try; and we cannot try without a long purse behind us.
I speak feelingly. I think this debate has been extraordinarily useful in bringing out every sort of angle of the problem. As a community, we have to try to produce the energy—the money or capital— in order to help the farmer. And we have to educate him so that he uses it properly. There is plenty of scientific advice at the moment. My farm manager is one of those who goes round the country and inspects farms. A day or two ago he told me that farmers wanted to improve their buildings, but how could they? One smallholder said that he could not keep his cows, because his landlord was the county council. The county council had told him, when he wanted to improve his holding and keep more cows, that it was meant for a hen farm, and that if he put cows into the hen-house (I am exaggerating, probably) he could not get quite the right attitude for cow-keeping. All the same, this is a serious problem. What are we going to do about it?
One of the great troubles of agriculture is that the Ministry of Agriculture say that we must have more eggs, or more pigs, or more cows, or more milk—and the same buildings cannot always be used for all of these things. I do not see how we can stop that. When I first began to use silage, I put up tower silos, but I found that that was not necessary, and that I could dig a hole in the ground with the aid of a bulldozer. That can be done only in certain places, because conditions are not the same everywhere. That is another great difficulty about British agriculture. All sorts of things are possible in different places at different times, and my view is that we just have to do our best. But first we should realise that more energy, in the form of money, has to come from somewhere, although I do not quite know where, while we have to provide armaments and build houses. And I do not think we ought to use good agricultural land for building houses. I felt I had to say these things because my experience is a real and practical one.
6.24 p.m.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, I have great pleasure in following the noble Earl, Lord Iveagh, who his demonstrated on such good lines in Suffolk what wonderful crops and what a large amount of milk can be produced. I am afraid that before I heard the noble Earl, I had decided to speak on the question of finance for agriculture, amongst other things. We know that at this time it is essential that neither the Government nor private individuals should waste money and launch into experiments which may not be successful. But, a part from coal, food is the only indigenous product of these islands and it is essential that we should produce the maximum quantity of food. That cannot be produced without capital and labour.
On the question of capital for agriculture, it seems ridiculous for the Government to extract large sums from agriculture, in the form of death duties, and then have to pay it back again in some other way. For many years I have been fighting the question of death duties on agricultural land, and to-day I speak with some personal feeling on the subject, because I have had to sell quite a deal of agricultural land to pay death duties. It is interesting to note that my farm tenants cannot afford to buy their farms because they cannot borrow money from the banks. And, frankly, I do not know what is going to happen. Some of the banks are better than others, but perhaps the banks which are not so good might be advised by the Government to do a little better, because it is essential that farmers should have capital for increasing food production. It has been suggested that agricultural land should be treated for death duties in the same way as pictures and objects a historic and artistic value, where the death duties are not paid until the objects are actually sold. I do not think that would produce very much less tax to the Treasury in the long run, but it would prevent capital from being taken out of the land at a time when it is especially needed. At present there is a 45 per cent. rebate on death duties on agricultural land, but the rate of death duties laid down in the 1919 Budget was more advantageous than the 45 per cent. rebate. I think that the Chancellor might consider this question seriously in his next Budget. We are not asking for any privilege for land owners,
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but it seems absurd that the Chancellor should annually extract £3 million, as at present, out of agriculture and that the Government should have to find even larger sums to put it back again.
I was interested to hear the noble Earl, Lord Iveagh, talk about money, because I find that the cost of repairs and capital improvements is enormously increased over pre-war years, while the rents received from the land are often the same as pre-war rents—and I even know of land owners who receive rents which are the same as those paid before the 1914–18 war. I think that is unwise. On the other hand, it is difficult to increase rents until improvements have been made. It comes back again to the question of capital. To build a cottage in Scotland, where I own land, might cost anything up to £2,000; and even with a grant under the hill farming scheme, it still costs £1,000. In some out of the way places it is also difficult to get capital improvements carried out at all. And unless these improvements are made, land owners cannot get people to live in these out-of-the-way places. Even if the men are willing to live there, their wives are not. Then the children, as soon as they get to a certain age at the village school, are sent to the local town, and the mothers want to be near the children. So the drift to the towns is encouraged, and agriculture becomes denuded of its labour. That also can be traced back to lack of capital.
I should like to talk for a few moments about agriculture in the Highlands, because to a certain extent I farm in the Highlands. I welcome the Government subsidy on hill cattle. A hill cow now has a subsidy of £7 a year, and recently a further subsidy of £3 a year was proposed for feeding a hill cow during the winter. That subsidy of £10 per cow on Highland farms should be attractive, but the difficulty there is that it costs far more than £3 to winter the cow, because in out-of-the-way places, particularly on the west coast, where it is so wet, you cannot get enough hay. I have heard of one farmer on the island of Skye saying that he has to pay £30 a ton for hay. That is quite ridiculous. Freight charges from the place where the hay is grown to a place like the island of Skye are so high that this particular farmer decided that he would not have any more cattle, and sold them. The

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production from that farm has now become nil. I should therefore like to suggest that the question of the Government's buying hay and storing it in various parts of the Highlands should be gone into further. I hope that that will be done, because wintering is the crux of the whole of Highland agriculture. You can summer thousands of beasts in the glens, but you cannot winter them. Unless you can make the Highlands the breeding place for cattle, in order to produce stores for the Lowland yards, you will never increase the beef production of the Highlands.
Arising out of that, and returning to the hill farming scheme, I believe that the hill farming scheme would be utilised much more if land owners, or even farmer-occupiers, could put forward the hill farming scheme for their farms bit by bit. I am told that if I wish to put forward a hill farming scheme for my land I have to put forward a complete scheme for the whole of the estate. That one may not be able to afford to do in one fell swoop; but one might do it farm by farm I hope that the Department of Agriculture for Scotland will consider the advisability of allowing hill farming schemes to go forward at, say, the extent of so much money in each financial year, lasting over three, four or five years.
I do not intend to take up much more time, but I should like to say how interested I was in what the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, said about storage. I have farming interests in Ireland, and I have talked to a good many people in Ireland in connection with the production of eggs. We could get a great many more eggs from Ireland for the housewives of this country. I personally hope that eggs will be freed next spring, so that supplies can find their own level. The egg is a difficult subject to control. It gets under the counter, runs about all over the place, and then it is called a "black market" egg. Some people seem to be able to get eggs all right, but others never seem able to get more than one a week for their ration. I feel that if eggs were freed, and allowed to roll about where they like, people would get far more eggs. I know that far more eggs would be produced in Ireland under private enterprise, and the eggs would not take so long to reach the tables of the housewives. By the time the eggs
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have gone through all the Government channels which they do go through they are probably most unpleasant for people to eat, and that gives the egg a bad reputation. Therefore, I hope that eggs will be freed. But if eggs are to be freed, you will have the hen laying the eggs in the spring time, because hens apparently lay more eggs in the spring time than in the winter. If they lay the eggs in the spring time, then you must have storage facilities for the eggs. To take up Lord Melchett's point, I believe that vastly more eggs would be produced in the fifty-two weeks of the year if there were storage facilities for storing summer eggs, and if they could be stored sufficiently well so that they would taste quite nice when they came out of storage. And in fact they taste far better coming from proper storage than if they take three weeks or a month getting on to the table, as happens now.
It is important to get more storage facilities. We read in the newspapers that the meat ration may be coming down by a certain amount each week. There again, if you had more storage facilities for cold storing your meat, you could kill the cattle at the most favourable time of the year, store them, and let the meat out at the time of the year when the people in Britain want to eat it. I wish to add my plea to that put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, that the whole question of storage facilities, not only for eggs, but for cattle, and such meats as pork, which might be greatly increased, should be kept well in mind.
To return to the doctrine which has been preached by so many Lords this afternoon, I am afraid it means that more capital has to be provided for agriculture. I hope that the Government will differentiate between capital for an essential industry, such as agriculture, or even capital for the provision of goods for the export trade, and other capital which is not so essential. I sincerely hope that capital will be injected into agriculture, either by private enterprise or by the Government, and that the rates of interest charged at present by such a body as the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation will be kept down. At present it is almost impossible for farmers to pay the interest on what they may borrow, apart from whether or not they have security to borrow the capital. In that connection

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(I cannot remember the exact figure at the moment), I know that for planting the rate of interest chargeable is considerably less than that at present charged by the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation. I hope that the Government, and particularly those interested in finance, will look into that point. As a last word, I would say that agricultural production in this country could be increased to a large extent—I will not say by how much per cent.—if the capital, the labour and, of course, the brains of the farmers, were available. Therefore, I hope that we shall have a satisfactory reply, particularly on the subject of the provision of capital.
6.38 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hungarton has every reason to feel gratified at having initiated this debate, and at the discussion which has ensued. It has been remarkable for the general agreement which the speeches have shown on the problem. Indeed, I can think of only one controversial note, and that was the note struck by the noble Viscount, Lord Hudson (who is now going), who was concerned about the problem of dogs on allotments. The noble Viscount must bear in mind that that is part of the policy of "setting the people free": it is a natural extension of that policy that it should be applied to dogs as well.
I think everybody will agree that agriculture is one of the most important industries in this country, and that it is essential that we should increase our output. All the speeches that have been made this afternoon have been made on that basis. The question that has been discussed is: How can we increase production? A good deal has been said about the need for increasing efficiency, which, in turn, involves considerable capital expenditure. Various theories have been put forward on this subject. I would say just two things about the increase in capital expenditure. One is that there is no doubt that the high rate of interest and the restriction on capital expenditure have been felt in agriculture as they have in industry generally. Raising money at the present time for agricultural purposes involves an interest of something like 6 per cent., and that wants a lot of earning, especially in the
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peculiar conditions of agriculture, which, as the noble Earl, Lord Halifax, said, is the most speculative and difficult of all our industries. As the noble Earl said, with the greatest efficiency in the world, one can find that the whole of one's efforts have been frustrated for a whole year. In those circumstances, it requires a great deal of courage in these days to embark upon capital expenditure, even if one can find the capital.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hudson, has been talking to farmers, and so have I. My own experience is that farmers are still very uncertain as to future Government policy. One can explain to them about the world shortage of food and the certainty that there will be an unlimited demand for an unlimited period, and yet they have doubts about what Government policy will be; whether they can rely upon guaranteed prices for a sufficiently long time to justify any capital expenditure that they may incur. Their minds go back to the inter-war years (and it is very natural they should) when "the devil was sick." et cetera. and they consider that the time may come when it will be possible to import food at cheaper prices than it is possible to grow it in this country. In those circumstances, they feel that a Government of the future might not hesitate to let them down. There is that feeling; and I am convinced that if the farmers could be guaranteed prices over a long enough period to justify their capital expenditure, in spite of the difficulties that I have mentioned we should get more efficient farming.
In addition to guaranteed prices there is the question of security of tenure, and I was interested in the noble Earl's observation on that subject. I think I am right in saying that something like 60 per cent. of the farming in this country is carried out by tenant farmers. If that is so, you will not get those tenant farmers to give of their best unless they have security of tenure. Therefore, I should be very hesitant to relax on the security that they at present have. I know that the noble Earl is seeking after a solution which will give complete security to the good tenant and not such good security to the medium tenant. I think he went a little far when he said that nobody wants to turn out a good tenant. I hope that that is generally the position, but it does not

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quite fit the conception to which I think my noble friend Lord Listowel drew attention—that rents are very low, and that there is the temptation in the case of some land owners to get rid of their tenants in order to be able to sell their land at the high price which prevails at the present time. One certainly wants to remove that temptation from the owner. Therefore, while I am in complete agreement that we ought not to be soft with the tenant who is not farming his land as well as he could, we must be quite certain that we do not take away from the good tenant the complete security which he has at the present time.
I did not really rise to talk about agriculture at large at all. This is the first time that I have ever spoken publicly on agriculture, and I cannot claim to have one tithe of the knowledge which every speaker who has taken part in the debate has. I really wanted to say a few words about the rationing scheme, which is of special interest to the smallholder. I believe it is true that the smallholder makes a considerable contribution to our food production at the present time. I speak in terms of proportion. I have heard that it is as high as 40 per cent. That figure may be much too high; but, at any rate, it is a substantial contribution. Particularly in the case of pigs, the smallholder—I do not say necessarily the backyard pig producer, but the man who has his three or four sows, or the man who sends his forty or fifty pigs to market every year—is making a very substantial contribution to the pig production of this country.
I can assure the noble Lord who is to reply that there is considerable dissatisfaction about the existing rationing scheme among a good many of the smallholders of this country. In the first place, they are by no means satisfied that rationing of feeding-stuffs is desirable or really necessary at all. Many people have asked me: What is the sense of rationing feeding-stuffs and limiting their importation, but importing meat instead? Is it not more economical to import feeding-stuffs than to import meat? The answer some years ago was that there was difficulty of shipping space, and that there was difficulty in obtaining feeding-stuffs. But I am quite sure that Her Majesty's Government would do well to explain very clearly to the smallholder why it is that rationing of feeding-stuffs is neces-
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sary to-day or, alternatively, why it is better to restrict our imports of feeding-stuffs and to import meat instead. I do not venture to express any opinion. I should be very happy if the noble Lord could give an answer to-day. At any rate, it is an answer which ought to be given, because is of considerable concern to the smallholder. I have not made up my mind whether it is right to go on importing feeding-stuffs or to import meat. But the onus is upon Her Majesty's Government, because the common-sense thing would seem to be that it is better to import feeding-stuffs and to produce meat.
It is upon the application of the rationing scheme that I should like to say a few words. I have here a document which is a circular, issued for the purpose of explaining to smallholders and others the basis of the animal feeding-stuffs rationing scheme. It starts off by explaining that, under the war-time rationing scheme which obtains to-day, basic rations for pigs and poultry kept commercially are allowed for such stock kept on holdings on which pigs and/or poultry were kept in 1939 or 1940. Unless pigs or poultry were actually kept on a holding in 1939 or 1940, under this rationing scheme you are not entitled to a ration. But there is an extended scheme, and those who want to start to-day, or have started since 1940, are entitled to a smaller ration—an inadequate ration; I am sure the noble Lord will agree with me that it is not adequate in itself for the purpose of keeping pigs or poultry—based upon the area of the holding.
And so we have the position existing to-day that if anyone is the owner of land on which pigs or poultry were kept in 1939 or 1940, he gets a substantial ration, even though, for most of the time, no pigs or poultry were kept on the land. In fact, if the noble Lord would like to study the local paper of the county in which he and I both reside, he will find that the existence of a pre-war ration is often advertised as a considerable asset; and people who want to sell their land pray in aid that this land has a pre-war ration and that it is, therefore, of greater value than other land. Moreover, a good many of the people who enjoy this pre-war ration are not using it. I believe that these rations are being sold freely in the black market at Is. a coupon I cannot tell the

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noble Lord where to go and get them, but it is common talk that you can buy these coupons at 1s. a time. That does not seem to me to be a very satisfactory basis if we are short of feeding-stuffs.
As for those unfortunate people who are entitled to the benefit of the extended scheme, they get a small ration based, as I say, on the area of thy; land, and then they get a farrowing allowance after the pig farrows; and if they fatten their pigs they get an allocation of 3 cwt. per pig, after the pigs are sold to the Ministry. But how they are going to fatten these pigs without a ration is left to speculation. That is no solution to the problem. It seems as if all the emphasis at the present time is laid on the people who had land before 1939 and 1940, and as if it were the deliberate policy of Her Majesty's Government (which I know it is not) to preclude people from starting pig or poultry farming who were not in the business before 1939–40 or who do not own the land on which this business is carried on. The ration is quite inadequate for the purpose of feeding stock. For instance, at the end of a period, when you have sold your pig, you get 3 cwt.; but it takes about 6 cwt. to feed a pig on a fattening basis. Therefore the other 3 cwt. has to be found somehow, either by way of root crop or in some other way. Everything is done to discourage an enterprising smallholder from increasing his pig or poultry stock.
While I am on this subject there is one other point with which I should like to deal. You do not even necessarily get your 3 cwt. when you have sold your pig to the Ministry. I have here a letter sent by the Ministry in reply to an application for the necessary coupons. It says in this document that the coupons will not be available until September, 1952—the pigs having been sold in June—because the period runs from May to August. Therefore any pigs sold in June do not become eligible for coupons until September. What the unfortunate smallholder is to do between June and September is not stated. Certainly he gets no coupons until then.
This is not a criticism of the administration locally. I must say that, generally speaking, those who are responsible locally for the administration of this scheme conduct their task efficiently,
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courteously, and most helpfully. I cannot praise too highly the services of the advisory people, who come over at any time they are wanted and who are most eager to help in every possible way. But it seems to me that there is something fundamentally wrong about this rationing scheme. If we must ration, if the policy is that rationing must continue, at least let it continue on a more sensible basis; let it be based on the number of pigs or poultry or other livestock being kept on a farm, and let it be administered in a way which is going to be helpful and which is going to encourage the keeping of livestock as far as possible. As I said at the outset, we are all, and especially my noble friend Lord Hungarton, entitled to feel very gratified with the most helpful way in which this debate has been conducted. I am certain that any criticisms that have been offered, either from this side or from the other side, have been made with the sole purpose of assisting in the vital task on which we are all agreed—that of increasing food production so far as we possibly can.
6.57 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, it is customary, when speaking on behalf of the Government in a debate of this kind, to say how grateful we are to the noble Lord who introduced this helpful Motion. We do this whether or not we are grateful and whether or not it was the noble Lord's intention to be helpful. But on this occasion I do thank the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, very sincerely for having put this Motion down. I know him well enough to realise that his only motive in doing so was a genuine interest in the progress of the food production drive and an earnest desire to help in every way he can. And that applies, of course, to all the many noble Lords who have taken part in the debate this afternoon. And a very remarkable debate it has been. We have had two ex-Ministers of Agriculture, an ex-Minister of Town and Country Planning and, I think I am right in saying, two ex-Parliamentary Secretaries to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. Perhaps I may take this opportunity of congratulating the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, on his maiden speech, which we all heard with so much pleasure. I have the privilege of working with him on one of the agricultural organisations and I know what good work he does. I also know that he is

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one of the leaders of good farming in his own county. I hope that now that he has, so to speak, taken the plunge, he will speak many more times in this House, and not only on farming.
I suppose agriculture is not a very controversial political topic, but of its importance there can be no question; and as it is now some six months since we discussed it I think it is high time that we had a debate of this kind. The Motion which Lord Hungarton has put down asks two questions: first, whether the Government are satisfied with the present drive for food production; and secondly, whether we are satisfied with the procedure now in operation—by which, I think, he means Part II of the Agriculture Act. Before I answer I think it may be useful if I remind your Lordships briefly of the circumstances which led my right honourable friend the Minister to launch a production drive earlier this year. In 1947 the Labour Government announced a large-scale expansion programme, from which followed a very impressive burst of activity in the industry which lasted until about 1949. From then onwards, the rate of expansion slowed down until, when the present Government took office last November, it had almost come to a stop. Indeed, in some directions there were signs that a positive decline had set in, as, for example, in cattle rearing and in the tillage acreage.
I think the main causes of this check to the rate of progress were, first of all, steeply rising costs, which were making it increasingly difficult for farmers to finance further expansion, and, secondly, a general feeling of uncertainty among farmers about the future demand for their products. There were also several minor reasons for the check: the effects of the weather on the hay and crop harvests in the western parts of the country in 1950 and, in particular, on milk production in the first half of 1951 and on lambing in 1951. It was with these facts in mind that my right honourable friend the Minister framed his production policy. His aim was to reverse the downward trend which had become evident in some lines of production and to raise the net agricultural output by 1956 to at least 60 per cent. more than the pre-war output and 12 per cent. more than at the present time.
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My noble friend, Lord Hudson—and perhaps I may congratulate him on his world record-beating cow, in spite of the aspersions cast upon her figures by the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe—has said he thinks we are not aiming high enough, but I must make it clear that this is the minimum objective. Before deciding on the figure of 60 per cent. we had to consider what additional resources we could make available to the industry to support the expansion that we wanted to see. Naturally, remembering our economic difficulties and the demands of our defence programme and the export industries, the share of our limited resources which could be allocated to agriculture was much smaller than we should have wished. The figure of 60 per cent. is, therefore, a conservative estimate of what can and must be done with the help of some additional tools and by increased technical skill. Bearing in mind the way in which the industry has responded to the demands which have been made upon it in the past, we naturally hope that the minimum objective which we have set will be exceeded.
The noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, said that a target ought to be set for each commodity. In the White Paper that was issued just after the Annual Review the Government made it clear that they did not favour the setting of detailed targets. We did not want to lay down a rigid overall plan from Whitehall, with targets imposed on counties. But the White Paper did give some illustrations of reasonable objectives for each main product by 1956. These were the illustrations we gave: an increase in the production and utilisation of grass by some 15 per cent.; an increase in the number of grass-eating animals, including a greater rate of increase in the number of sheep and the rearing of another 400,000 calves each year; an extra 1,000,000 acres of tillage and a 5 per cent. increase in the yield of tillage crops; as much wheat as could possibly he grown, and enough potatoes to satisfy the demand; the maintenance of the existing number of dairy cows and an increase in the yield per cow an expansion of pig and egg production to meet the demand and to the extent that was made possible by increases in the tillage acreage. Finally, and most important of all, we said that the production of beef and veal, mutton and lamb should be raised to the utmost.

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Here, surely, was a clear indication of what was expected for each commodity, and farmers could hardly have wished for a plainer statement. The Government's intentions were given the fullest possible publicity, and I think the announcement should have removed any doubts that farmers might have had about the new Government's production policy. It is too soon yet to see clearly from the figures we have available how the production drive is going. It is, after all, only six months since the results of the Annual Review and the Price Award were announced. Some noble Lords, I thought, tended this afternoon to forget that farming is not an industry where spectacular increases in production can be made within a few months. Also, the only statistical information so far available for crops is that contained in the June 4 Returns. But in spite of what my noble friend Lord Rennell said—and I thought he was unduly gloomy this afternoon—we feel a restrained optimism about the results of the drive so far.
The decline in the tillage area which was so pronounced between 1950 and 1951 has been stopped, and there is an increase of 150,000 acres of tillage this year—that is a net increase. It is due, I think, in large part to the ploughing grant announced in February and which is to continue next year. We have also gone some way towards stopping costs from rising. Noble Lords will know that the Government have introduced a number of measures which are designed primarily to keep the farmers' costs down, and in addition to these the Chancellor of the Exchequer's anti-inflationary policy is beginning to show encouraging results in agriculture as well as in other industries.
We can draw a few tentative conclusions about the latest trends in livestock production from the September returns for England and Wales which have just become available. In the case of cattle it seems that the decline in dairy cattle numbers has been halted. On the beef side, as I said in my in. to the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, the figures for calves under one year old show a definite improvement. Although the number of pigs has risen substantially, the breeding stock seems to have remained about the same, as it has, also, in the case of eggs; but there is no reason why we should
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not have more of these in proportion to any increase in feeding-stuff supplies. Sheep numbers have increased significantly following on the large lamb crop of 1952, and the September returns suggest that many extra lambs will be kept for future breeding.
Even after due allowance has been made for the very short time that has passed since the Government began to tackle this problem of the declining rate of expansion, I think it is fair to say that the industry has made a good start and that there are signs of recovery and confidence in the future. As I have said, the figure of 160 per cent. of pre-war production should be well within the industry's capabilities. It amounts to an increase of only 3 per cent. a year for the next four years. Even so, I am sure that we shall not achieve even this objective unless we can secure the co-operation of all the 350,000 farmers in the country. Financial inducements alone cannot be relied on to produce this. We must convince the farmers that the production drive is necessary, and we must show them how they can achieve the target. There are three main ways in which we hope to secure their co-operation.
The Government are providing financial assistance through a number of measures, each of which is designed to encourage production in some particular line which we think should be given special emphasis. We have introduced a subsidy on fertilisers and two schemes for the payment of ploughing grants. We have reintroduced a calf subsidy, and the subsidies for drainage, water supplies and marginal production, which were due to end this year, are being continued. The basic release prices of feeding stuffs will be continued until the end of March, 1953.
But, as I have said, financial aids are not enough by themselves. We need to keep in the closest possible touch with the farmers in the counties, not only so that we can let them know what is needed but also so that we may ourselves learn about their difficulties. For this purpose we have the county agricultural executive committees and their district committees. Members of these committees come from the ranks of the National Farmers' Union, the two workers' unions and the Country Landowners' Association. That seems to me a fact of the greatest importance. These men and

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women, who spend a large amount of their time, voluntarily, to help the cause of farming, are the trusted members of the farming organisations themselves, and their chief duty should be, and is, to encourage, to help and to advise their fellow agriculturists. I was heartened to see, in the two articles to which the noble Lord and other noble Lords have referred, in The Times of to-day and yesterday, that the author says this—I quote:
"In all this"—
that is to say the expansion of output—
"the technical advisers and the county committees haw had a great part to play. They have been the farmers' friends without whom present progress would be impossible."
If this system is to work properly the Minister must be in constant touch with his committees, but unfortunately we have found that there are so many ties which bind the Minister to London and his office that it is impossible for him to get about the country as much as he would like. To overcome this difficulty my right honourable friend has now appointed thirteen liaison officers, all prominent men. These officers will act as personal ambassadors front the Minister to their respective areas. They will both interpret the Government's policy to the county committees arid other organisations and also keep the Minister informed of developments in their areas—particularly of anything which might be hindering the food production drive.
We rely largely on the county committees to see that the farmers know about the advisory services which are available to them. We have every reason to be proud of the first-class services which are provided by the National Agricultural Advisory Service and the Agricultural Land Service. There is certainly no country that provides better services, and few have anything that is even comparable. But now that these services have become firmly established here, it is important to see that they are used to the full and that the advice is given in those quarters where it is most needed. Unfortunately, we cannot rely on all farmers to ask for advice; nor can we safely assume that, if a farmer does not seek advice, he does not need it. That is why we must rely on the district committees of the county agricultural executive committees to carry out a regular survey of the farms in their dis-
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tricts. This is by far the best way to discover which are the farms that are not producing as much as they could and on which advice is needed. At the same time the Farm Survey is a means of establishing personal contact with every farmer and convincing him that a food production drive really is necessary and that he can help himself and the nation by increasing his output.
In spite of repeated denials, I believe that there are still some people who think that the primary object of the Farm Survey is to find farmers to put under supervision or to dispossess. It cannot be said too often or too strongly that this is not the case. The Farm Survey is a means of increasing agricultural production, and if we relied for our increased production on farms that were eligible for supervision we should have no hope at all of achieving the object we have in mind. On the contrary, we know that it is from the middle group of farmers, who with help and technical advice could produce much more from their holdings but who are in no danger of supervision, from whom we shall get the increase we want. The committees have been asked to concentrate on helping these farmers to step up their production. The only type of farmer who has anything at all to fear from the Survey is the one who is farming really badly and who refuses to take advice. He will and must be put under supervision.
All this is very important, because a considerable proportion of the increase that we are planning over the next four years must be achieved by the better use of existing resources—which means by greater technical skill. Farming efficiency has been increasing steadily for many years and much credit is due to the industry for that. If I may give only one example, we now have fewer dairy cows than we used to have but we are producing more milk. But we all agree that there is still a large gap between the productivity of the average farm and the productivity which the best farmers have shown can be achieved by the use of the most up-to-date scientific methods. We must do everything we can to close that gap.
In addition to the normal contact with farmers through the county committees, we are arranging to publicise the production drive on a nation-wide scale. In

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case there should be any misunderstanding, let me say at once that we do not intend to exhort farmers with fine phrases—we are all rather tired of exhortations—but farmers must be told what is required of them and why it is required; and they must be told this in statements which are addressed perhaps rather more directly to them than is an announcement in Parliament. To do this we shall enlist the co-operation of national and local organisations of farmers, land owners and workers, and also of corn merchants, auctioneers, land agents and others connected with the industry, and we intend to make the drive something in which everyone who lives on or by the land takes a vigorous part. Already, my Lords, in a small number of selected counties pilot publicity groups are being set up, composed of local people who are interested in agriculture and who will be able to help, by spreading their enthusiasm to their neighbours and by suggesting ways in which farmers can best be helped.
My Lords, having said that, I do not wish to be accused of complacency. I have said that we have made a good start and that the procedure to which the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, has referred is working fairly well. But there are, of course, many worries. Perhaps at this juncture I might try to answer some of the questions which noble Lords have put to me during the course of the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Glentanar, drew my attention to the need for closer co-operation between the Agricultural and the Forestry Departments. He referred particularly to Scotland. My noble friend Lord Home has asked me to apologise for his inability to be present here to-day. He would have liked to be here, but unfortunately it is impossible. The Agricultural Ministers who are responsible not only for agriculture but for forestry in their respective countries are, of course, very anxious to see that the land is put to its best use from the broad point of view of public interest, and I think it is true to say that since the publication of the Balfour of Burleigh Report, and the passing of the Forestry Act of 1945, this machinery has, on the whole, worked fairly well. I think your Lordships will be encouraged by the appointment of my noble friend Lord Radnor as Chairman of the Forestry
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Commission. He is known to all your Lordships as having a deep interest in both agriculture and forestry, and I am certain that under his guidance both foresters and agriculturists will work together in the closest co-operation.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, whom I thank for his speech, asked me one or two questions. He referred to common lands. I agree with very much that he said. At present there is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. The law on the subject is involved and out of date; it does not match with the needs of the present day. During a debate in another place on June 12, my right honourable friend the Minister announced that he was urgently considering the whole future of common land and how best to increase the contribution that it can make to our national food supply. This will of course take time, and I am afraid that I cannot at present add anything very useful to my right honourable friend's statement. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, also made some remarks about rents. As he said, that is not primarily, or indeed at all, the business of Her Majesty's Government; it is a matter for the land owners themselves. But I am quite sure that, coming from the quarter that it did, the statement of the noble Earl will be read with great interest. He also asked me a question about the utilisation of grass on airfields. He will know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air is himself a keen farmer and agriculturist. I am glad to say that there have been consultations with his Department about the best use to which the grass on these airfields can be put, and we have had encouraging results.
My noble friend Lord Hudson expressed some anxiety about the decision of the Government to allow Regulation 62AA, which was introduced to protect war-time allotments from straying dogs, to lapse. He has, I know, been having some correspondence with my honourable friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary in another place on this subject. I am afraid that I have nothing much to add to what has already been said. The noble Viscount said that he would not be "fobbed off" with the brief with which my Department had provided me. I must confess that I do not think it is such a bad brief as all that. The regulation which he mentioned created a com-

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pletely new criminal offence, that of permitting a dog to trespass, whether it caused damage or not. In spite of what the noble Viscount says, I think, now the number of war-time allotments have greatly diminished, that we should not be justified in pressing for its retention. Powers of this kind, I should have thought, could be justified only in time of war. I Know I have not satisfied my noble friend, but I assure him that I will look into this matter again and see whether there is anything else I can do to help him. Other noble Lords asked for a conference to be convened by the Royal Agricultural Society of England or a body of that kind, to discuss the food production drive and to make suggestions to the Government. I confess that that is a new idea to me.
LORD HUNGARTON: May I just say that I wished the Ministry or the Government to call that conference—certainly not anyone lower than Government level.
LORD CARRINGTON: All sorts of suggestions were made in the course of the debate. I may not have got them all, but I think the general idea was that a conference should be called. I will certainly bring that to the notice of my right honourable friend, and perhaps I may write to noble Lords who have put forward that suggestion. The noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, asked about money which could be spent by the British Electricity Authority in the year 1953–54. At the present time the fourteen area boards of the British Electricity Authority hope to spend on rural electricity, in the year 1952–53, £6 million, and although they have not yet worked out the corresponding figure for 1953–54 it looks as though it will be about the same. We welcome the intervention in an agricultural debate of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. I did not realise that he was a neighbour of mine in my county. I hope he will soon be farming there as a neighbour of mine. He mentioned the question of the rationing scheme, and I agree with a great deal he said. But it is a very complex and difficult subject. I had no notice that he was going to raise it on this particular occasion, but I assure him that I will look into the matter and, if I may, I will write to him later on.
The noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, quite rightly drew your Lordships' attention to the problem of labour. We know that there is a drift away front the land,
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particularly of regular male workers, who are, of course, the most important part of the labour force, and this must mean difficulties for individual farms, particularly in those areas where accommodation and other amenities are short or where competition with other industries is particularly strong. On the other hand, we think that the programme we have set before the industry can be accomplished with the resources already available, and that applies to our resources of labour as well as to other things. The output per man has been rising steadily If only we can make the best and fullest possible use on every farm of the labour we have, we should be able to increase our output of food very substantially.
Of course, Her Majesty's Government will continue to do all they can, within the country's limited resources, to help the industry to attract and keep the labour it needs. So far as possible we avoid, under our town and country planning arrangements, the setting up of industries in areas where they would compete seriously for labour with agriculture. Agriculture already has first preference for labour, and farmers are not required to go through the employment exchanges to get their labour, as most other industries are—though we would naturally encourage them to use the labour exchanges so far as possible. We have training schemes, both for adults and juveniles, and we hope the industry will itself soon establish an apprenticeship scheme.
The Government's recent Housing Act, as well as arrangements to which my noble friend referred to extend water and electricity supplies to rural areas, should help in providing better housing and amenities for farm workers. We shall go on improving housing and amenities in the countryside as quickly as resources allow and we shall do our utmost to see that agriculture gets a fair share of these. Above all, we aim to provide confidence and stability for agriculture so that the industry may itself provide conditions of work, whether through wages or any other means, that will enable it to maintain an adequate and skilled labour force. Perhaps the recent Country Landowners' Association scheme for pensions—which I venture to think is a courageous and bold experi-

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ment—is a first instalment of that kind of thing.
Another difficulty which I think almost all noble Lords have mentioned is high interest rates and a shortage of credit. The rate of interest in the money market is, of course, high, and the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation has not been able to escape the consequences of this. The rate at which the Corporation lends depends on the rate at which it in turn, can borrow—plus, of course, a margin to cover the Corporation's running costs. However, I am glad to say that in the three months since the Corporation's lending rate was raised to 6 per cent. there has been only a slight decline in the demand for loans from the Corporation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has, I think, already adequately explained why the high rate of interest s an indispensable feature of his policy. If we want to see the country's finances restored to solvency, this, I think, is one of the sacrifices we have to make. On the other hand, realising the special difficulties with which the agricultural industry has to cope, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear to the banks that, in applying their advances policy, they should give full weight to the importance of agricultural production. What is more, the Chancellor has explained that by "agriculture" in this context he also means the merchants and others concerned directly with agriculture. There is every indication that the banks are co-operating in carrying out the Government's policy in this respect. Indeed, there is evidence that many small farmers are not making as much use as they might of bank credit, and we should like to see them making better use of the facilities that are available. Bank managers will not, of course, be inclined to make advances to clients who are bad risks; but a great many farmers, I think, would receive a much more sympathetic hearing from the banks than they seem to expect. The day has long since passed when there was some social stigma associated with borrowing money. The practice is now perfectly respectable, as most of your Lordships will testify.
I suppose that the most important thing any Minister of Agriculture can do, and sometimes the most difficult thing to achieve, is to gain the farmer's confidence and give him faith in the future. I think
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that the actions, and not only the actions but the character, of my right honourable friend the Minister, have succeeded in this. But, apart from that, the farmers of this country—and this has already been mentioned by several noble Lords—have only to look at world conditions and read their newspapers almost any morning to realise that they have a guarantee for the future. There is, in the world, as has been said, a serious shortage of food which looks as if it will continue indefinitely, and combined with that the population of the world is increasing. There will certainly be no return to the days of cheap imports of food such as we had in the past. In addition to that we must continue to look at our strategic position, and a stable and healthy agriculture is an essential part of our defence. Food production, as has often been said, is the fourth line of defence. If, on top of all this, you consider the guarantees which the Agriculture Act contains, your Lordships will agree with me that the farmers of this country should have real confidence in expanding their output to the limit of their capabilities.
I recall that in the speech which he made the noble Lord, Lord Hungarton, said "We have been wobbling too much for many years." If that is the noble Lord's definition of the course pursued by the late Government. I shall not quarrel with him. But he went on to ask where the present Government were going to jump next. Of all the many means of locomotion available to man, jumping in this case seems the most inappropriate. Those who jump usually do so with no particular worry about the direction, but only with a strong wish to jump farther than the next man; and they seldom know where they are going to land. That may be an exact description of what goes on at a Labour Party Conference, but it is certainly not the way for a Conservative Government to progress. We shall jump nowhere, but will continue steadily on the path which we have chosen, making the road as smooth as we can for the agricultural community who march along with us. We have made an encouraging start with the production drive. There remains a great deal to be clone, but we owe a great debt of gratitude to the farmers who have done so much in the past and, with our help, will do even more in the future.
7.31 p.m.
LORD HUNGARTON: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for the able and lucid way in which he has replied to the debate this evening? We nearly came to a little bit of Party politics at the finish, but not quite; and we will keep away from it right to the end. It has been an excellent debate, and I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part. It has been en a high level from beginning to end. I am grateful to noble Lords for the kind way in which they have treated me in this debate. It is the first time that I have had the privilege of moving a Motion in your Lordships' House, and I appreciate the kindness with which your Lordships have received it. There is little
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more for me to say. I am assured by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that everything is being done which can be done. I shall watch him and what is happening in the country and I shall bring this subject before your Lordships again if I think that progress is not being made as it should be. We are all keen to get as much food production as we possibly can, and I am sure the Government are doing whatever they can at the moment. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at twenty-seven minutes before eight o'clock.