Sitting of 12 March 1952

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  EALING CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  CIVIL AVIATION

    Services and Production, Scotland
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Minister of Civil Aviation if he can now make a statement outlining his policy for Scotland, both in the operational and manufacturing fields.
    The Minister of Civil Aviation (Mr. John Maclay): I am not yet in a position to make a statement on air service policy for Scotland. Manufacturing policy is the concern of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply.
    Sir T. Moore: While thanking my hon. Friend for those doubtful crumbs, may I ask him to bear in mind that Scotland today feels that she is being treated as a kind of Cinderella in the civil aviation line and, therefore, when he has time, will he do everything he can to dissipate that feeling?
    Mr. Maclay: I am quite certain my hon. and gallant Friend will realise that I am the last person to consider Scotland as a Cinderella in any way, and he will know that the question of air service policy for Scotland and otherwise is under my very close attention at the moment.
    Mr. A. Woodburn: It is not quite clear whether the Question refers to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's predilection for private air lines but, if it refers to public services, may I ask the Minister if he is contemplating some general policy,
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    including helicopters, and a general service for the outlying parts of Scotland?
    Mr. Maclay: Quite clearly the whole question of civil air policy is under active consideration.
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Minister of Supply his plans for developing the design and manufacturing unit at Prestwick Airport so as to enable Scotland to play her proper part in designing and producing aircraft within Scotland.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. A. R. W. Low): Scottish Aviation Limited, to which I assume my hon. and gallant Friend refers, is a private firm. It has been, and will be, allocated a fair share of the work which the Ministry of Supply controls and for which its facilities are suited. Primary responsibility for developing its design and manufacturing resources rests, however, with the firm.
    Sir T. Moore: May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, what you think is the explanation—[Interruption.] I am waiting for the noise to subside, but I was asking you, Mr. Speaker, what is the explanation of the reluctance on the part of successive Governments to entrust the design and building of aircraft to Scotland?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me.
    Sir T. Moore: May I, then, refer that question to the Minister himself? What is this reluctance? Scotland has been building ships to sail the seven seas, and why cannot she design and build aircraft?
    Mr. Low: As my right hon. Friend said yesterday in reply to a similar question, there is no such reluctance.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the Minister aware that, unfortunately, during the economy period, I had the duty of curtailing the development of aircraft at this airport, and is he further aware that it is quite impossible for a full-scale aircraft development establishment to be built near Prestwick without destroying it completely as an international airport? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Would he take into account the uniting of several firms in Scotland with a view to trying to form one unit for the building of aircraft in Scotland under the development programme?
    Mr. Low: I will have a look at what the right hon. Gentleman suggests.
    Mr. William Ross: Do I understand the Minister rightly in thinking that Prestwick has been awarded a fair share of contracts, and may I ask him how that squares up with the answer given the other day by the Minister of Supply, who said that he had no right to guide contracts to Prestwick or any other airport?
    Mr. Low: The hon. Gentleman did understand me rightly, but he did not understand my right hon. Friend aright.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the best possible way in which to help Prestwick Airport is for the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr, to travel there occasionally by air, like the hon. Member for South Ayrshire?
    Sir T. Moore: Does the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), because he represents coal miners, live down a coal mine?

    London—Nicosia Services (Pressurised Aircraft)
    Mr. P. B. Lucasasked the Minister of Civil Aviation when it is anticipated that pressurised aircraft will become available to British European Airways for operation on the scheduled services between London and Nicosia.
    Mr. Maclay: I cannot at present add to the answer given to the hon. Member for the Cities of London and Westminster (Sir H. Webbe) on 5th March.
    Mr. Lucas: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that a similar degree of priority will be given to re-equipping this route as is given to other routes operated by the Corporation?
    Mr. Maclay: Perhaps I might remind my hon. Friend that I said in my previous reply that improved air services between the United Kingdom and Cyprus with pressurised modern aircraft are to be introduced within the next few months.
    Air Commodore A. V. Harvey: Is it not a fact that B.O.A.C. are flying pressurised aircraft landing at Nicosia but, under some arrangement with B.E.A., are not allowed to take passengers? Will he look into this and regularise it, as it seems a sheer waste of money and effort?
    Mr. Maclay: I can only add that talks on this matter are now proceeding between all the interested parties.

    B.E.A. and B.O.A.C.
    Mr. F. Beswickasked the Minister of Civil Aviation the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the continued separate existence of the British European Airways and the British Overseas Airways Corporations.
    Mr. Maclay: No change in the separate existence of the two Corporations is under consideration.
    Mr. Beswick: Is the Minister aware that this reply will give widespread satisfaction on both sides of the House, and is he also aware that it will do much to allay apprehensions that have been caused in one of the Corporations by recent rumours?

    Pilots (Recruitment).
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Civil Aviation if he is now satisfied with the rate of recruitment of air-line pilots; and what steps he is taking to publicise the opportunities now offered to enter this profession through initial air-crew training as a National Service man.
    Mr. Maclay: I understand that the Corporations are generally satisfied with the present rate of recruitment but other operators are finding difficulty in satisfying their requirements. Arrangements have been made with the Admiralty and the Air Ministry to bring the opportunities offered in civil aviation to the notice of serving pilots and the Air Training Corps: the University Appointments Boards, the Public Schools Appointments Board and the Central Youth Employment Executive have also been invited to help.
    Mr. Beswick: I am sure the Minister agrees that it is absolutely essential for us to have the right quantity of recruits and the right type, but will he also agree that it is a matter of getting our young people to know that it is possible to enter into this profession through their National Service training as a first step?
    Mr. Maclay: Yes, I fully appreciate the importance of these points, and I know the hon. Member's past interest in this matter.

    New Aircraft
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Civil Aviation by what dates he expects the Comet II, the Viscount and the MRE 175 aircraft to be ready for operational service.
    Mr. Maclay: I am informed that provisional plans are based on bringing the Comet Series II aircraft into service towards the end of 1953, the Viscount aircraft at the end of this year, and the Bristol 175 aircraft about the end of 1954.
    Mr. Beswick: Will the Minister give this his personal attention to ensure that these machines get the priority they deserve and are not pushed down the scale through the re-armament effort in other directions?
    Mr. Maclay: Obviously I am as keen as anybody can be that these planes should come into operation at the earliest possible opportunity.

  GERMAN WOMEN (AFFILIATION PROCEEDINGS)
  Mr. Richard Woodasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consideration has been given to the present inability of German women to take affiliation proceedings against British Service men in the contractual negotiations between the three occupying Powers and the German Federal Government; and if he will make a statement.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Anthony Nutting): The contractual settlement is still under negotiation. The question raised by my hon. Friend falls under the general heading of civil jurisdiction over members of foreign forces in Germany, which will form an important part of the settlement.
  Mr. Wood: Can the hon. Gentleman say when he is likely to be able to give an answer to this question?
  Mr. Nutting: I can tell the House that we have had conversations on this matter with the German Federal Government which have so far been encouraging, and that I hope a settlement will be reached. As regards publication of the conventions,
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  that must wait until all the conventions attached to the contractual settlement are published.
  Mr. Woodburn: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he might find some guidance in the success we had in solving this very thorny problem between Scotland and England two years ago?
  Captain J. A. L. Duncan: Is my hon. Friend aware that not only German women in Germany are concerned but also British women in this country married to people, either British or German, living in Germany, and will the convention cover them, too?
  Mr. Nutting: No, Sir. I do not think the convention will cover that type of case, and I do not think that question is a matter for my Department.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: The statement of the Minister does not mean, does it, that these contractual negotiations will be concluded before the House has had an opportunity of considering them?
  Mr. Nutting: My right hon. Friend has made the position perfectly clear about this. The House will have an opportunity of considering the contractual settlement after it has been reached.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the discussions now proceeding with the German authorities on this matter follow the lines of the agreement reached in a similar matter between this country and the United States of America with regard to American troops in this country, or whether German citizens are to be given rights against us which we do not enjoy against the American forces?
  Mr. Nutting: I should like to have notice of that.

  ANGLO-EGYPTIAN NEGOTIATIONS (SUDAN)
  Mr. T. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the unity of the Nile Valley is to be discussed in the Anglo-Egyptian negotiations; and if he will give an assurance that Sudanese representatives will be invited to take part in any discussion of this subject.
  Mr. Nutting: As regards the first part of the Question, it is impossible for me to say to what extent this matter will be discussed in these negotiations. As regards the second part of the Question, it is not possible to say at this stage whether Sudanese representatives will be invited to attend any such discussions.
  Mr. Driberg: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that any discussion of this matter between ourselves and the Egyptians at this stage must seem to some extent to prejudice the future right of the Sudanese people to self-determination? Is it not a matter that should be left for discussion bi-laterally between the Egyptians and the Sudanese after the transfer of power in the Sudan?
  Mr. Nutting: I do not think that the House would expect me to go further in this very delicate issue than the statements which have already been made by my right hon. Friend. It has been made perfectly plain that in any discussions which might take place about the position of the Sudan, our first care must be for the wishes of the Sudanese people.

  TRIESTE (STATUS)
  Mr. M. Philips Priceasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement about the negotiations he is carrying on concerning the status of Trieste city and the surrounding zones A and B.
  Mr. Nutting: Her Majesty's Government are not carrying on any negotiations. The Yugoslav and Italian Governments are, however, engaged in direct discussions which Her Majesty's Government hope will be successful.
  Mr. Price: Are there any serious difficulties and, if so, are the Government in any position to assist the discussions in any way?
  Mr. Nutting: There are considerable difficulties about this problem, and Her Majesty's Government are certainly doing everything possible to assist in a solution of those difficulties; but we believe—I think, rightly—that by far the best and most satisfactory solution of this tangled and thorny problem would be obtained by direct negotiation between the two parties thereto.

  ALBANIA (BRITISH CLAIM)
  Mr. John Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the results of the arbitration in respect of compensation awarded to this country from Albania by the International Court of Justice have been pronounced; and what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking to recover such compensation.
  Mr. Nutting: No, Sir. There have been no further developments since my reply to the hon. Gentleman on 14th November last year.
  Mr. Hynd: Is the Minister consulting with his hon. Friends the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education, who passed so many strictures on the late Government for their delay in this matter and for their failure to take such drastic action as the seizing of Albanian ships in the Mediterranean?
  Mr. Nutting: No, Sir, but we are taking legal advice.

  NIGERIA

    Education
    Mr. Ralph Morleyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been drawn to the backward state of education in Northern Nigeria compared with the Eastern and Western regions; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Oliver Lyttelton): Yes, Sir. The main need is for many more trained teachers. The current programme, stated in 1948, is designed to provide enough teachers to double the number of children in primary schools in Northern Nigeria by the end of 1953. Also the training of non-graduate secondary school teachers is now beginning.
    Mr. Morley: Is the Minister aware that the Resident of Northern Nigeria is refusing to give permission for the building of schools in Northern Nigeria and that only 100,000 children are being educated there, whereas in Eastern and Western Nigeria, whose combined populations are much less, 900,000 children are being educated? These appears to be some hold up in development in Northern Nigeria.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I think that the Moslem population have not been attracted in the past as they should have been by the benefits of modern education.

    Native Authority Ordinance
    Mr. R. W. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that restrictions on freedom of speech, freedom of movement and freedom of collective bargaining are now imposed in the Ilorin Division of Nigeria; who is responsible for this; and to what extent the Nigerian Government has power to over-ride these restrictions.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I have asked the Governor of Nigeria for information on this matter and will write to the hon. Member when I receive it.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman has no information in his possession at present about this very serious interference with the freedom of speech?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Under the provisions of the Native Authority Ordinance, a native authority may control the migration of natives from or to its area and prohibit any act or conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace. I have not the full information, which I am very ready to obtain.

  MALAYA

    Broadcasting Department Appointment
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what were the qualifications of Mr. A. A. Josey which led to his appointment as head of the radio station in Malaya in 1948.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Mr. Josey was appointed assistant editor in the Malayan Broadcasting Department in February, 1949. He has experience of journalism and broadcasting and was controller of programmes in the Palestine Broadcasting Service from 1946 to 1948.
    Lord Malcolm Douglas-Hamilton: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the T.U.C. protested at the time of Mr. Josey's appointment and that he is a man of known Communist sympathies? Is his appointment to be terminated in the near future?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I should like, first, to make it clear that Mr. Josey's contract is not being renewed; but there is no reflection whatever upon his personal integrity or professional conduct.

    Rubber Production (Smallholdings)
    Mr. S. S. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action is being taken by the Government of the Federation of Malaya to encourage thrift, credit and producers' co-operatives which would assist the smallholders in the replanting of rubber.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Although there are 19 co-operatives concerned with rubber marketing, there is none at present specifically organised for replanting of rubber. Replanting by smallholders is to be provided for from the proceeds of the cess on rubber exports of which the estimated share of the smallholders to date is some£3 million. The board set up to administer the fund derived from the cess will consider whether co-operatives can be utilised in the furtherance of replanting schemes for smallholders.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the smallholders in Malaya produce a very large amount of rubber, which produces dollars for us? Will he do everything possible to prevent them from being driven out of business and assist to prevent them from falling into the hands of the local moneylenders?
    Mr. Lyttelton: That is the object of raising this cess—to assist the smallholders to replant.

    War Damage Awards (Appeals)
    Sir Robert Grimstonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the Malayan War Damage Commission is demanding fees, in connection with appeals against awards, to be received in Malaya within one month from the date of dispatch of demand from Kuala Lumpur, failure to comply in time resulting in loss of all rights of appeal; and if he will inquire into this, having regard to the very short time allowed for communications over long distances.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Claimants outside Malaya are allowed one month from the date on which they receive the award to ask for a statement of the ground on

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    which it was made. They have a further three months from the date on which they receive the assessment board's reasons to lodge an appeal. Fees are ascribed for both processes, as is usual and reasonable.
    Sir R. Grimston: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have here a copy of a letter in which case one month was allowed, not from the date of the receipt of the letter, but from the date of the posting of the letter in Kuala Lumpur, and that that is too short a time to allow for communications to go backwards and forwards?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I shall be glad to have any individual case investigated.

  CENTRAL AFRICA

    Federation
    Mr. A. Fenner Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what African representatives from Southern Rhodesia. Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, will be invited to the resumed negotiations on the proposal for a Central African Federation; and how these African representatives will be selected.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The question of representation from Southern Rhodesia is a matter for the Government of that territory. As I explained in the debate on 4th March, the African Representative Council in Northern Rhodesia and the African Protectorate Council in Nyasaland, respectively, have been invited to send deputations to London some time before the April conference to discuss with me African views on federation. I hope that some members of these deputations will stay on as delegates to the April conference. The method of selecting delegates has not yet been decided.
    Mr. Brockway: Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with the Government of Southern Rhodesia to see that African representatives are eligible for invitation to the conference? Secondly, will he apply what is known as the Griffiths formula so that nonofficial African bodies can be consulted as well as official bodies?
    Mr. Lyttelton: In reply to the first part, I can only repeat that that must remain a matter for the Southern Rhodesian Government. On the second part,
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    I think the hon. Member will agree that I must confine my invitations to the official bodies.
    Mr. Brockway: I said "consultations."
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. Gentleman feel that it would be appropriate to have African representatives only from Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, and does he believe that his influence is without any importance at all regarding Southern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I should welcome African representation from Southern Rhodesia, but I cannot answer for their Government.
    Mr. Thomas Reid: How many African delegates have promised to come?
    Mr. Lyttelton: So far, I have received acceptance only from the African Protectorate Council. I am still awaiting an answer from the African Representative Council.
    Mr. C. J. M. Alport: Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that nothing will be done to derogate from the constitutional responsibility of the Governors of Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia to represent the point of view and interests of Africans and other communities in the two territories?
    Mr. Lyttelton indicated assent.

    Immigration Legislation
    Mr. John Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made with immigration legislation in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The Northern Rhodesian Government are considering a general revision of their immigration laws, but have not yet reached final conclusions on the matter. The problem in Nyasaland is different in kind, but the Government of Nyasaland also have their immigration laws under review.
    Mr. Rankin: Will the right hon. Gentleman encourage both Governments to press on to a final decision, and a speedy one, in this matter?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am very anxious, as is the hon. Gentleman, to see this matter pressed forward, but I do not think we should under-rate the complexities of the subject, even though it is desirable that a conclusion should be reached.
    Mr. John Dugdale: What is holding up this legislation, because preparations had reached an advanced stage last year?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Merely the many complexities which are still under discussion. The Governments have not reached conclusions.

  ADEN

    Housing
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action has been taken to implement the Aden Town Planning Ordinance of 1948; and how many houses have been built for manual and professional workers.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The townships of the Fortress and Sheikh Othman have been declared planning areas under the Ordinance, but the preparation of a town planning scheme must await a cadastral survey of the existing development. This requires staff which so far has not been obtainable.
    Since 1946, the Government of Aden have built 667 houses for manual workers and 60 houses for professional workers. In addition, a considerable number of houses have been built by private interests for both manual and professional workers, but figures are not available.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of this somewhat scanty performance, especially for professional workers, and in view also of the continued abominable housing conditions in Aden Colony generally, does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is right to proceed with the building of a new Government House costing£45,000?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The thing that is keeping back the plan is the absence of professional staff. The Government of Aden have advertised widely to try to obtain candidates for these posts.

    New Hospital
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the plan for a new hospital at Aden has been abandoned; and when the tuberculosis wards to be built at Khormaksar will be ready for use.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The plan has not been abandoned: it is still proposed to construct a new 480-bed hospital at
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    Khormaksar as rapidly as difficulties of finance and shortage of technical staff can be overcome. A sum of£600,000 is included in the present Aden Colony Development Budget towards the building of this hospital. Tubercular patients are already adequately provided with wards at the present hospital, and will probably remain there until the major part of the new hospital has been built.
    Mr. Rankin: Would the right hon. Gentleman say when he expects that the T.B. part of it will be ready for use?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I can only say that I am a politician and not a prophet.

  KENYA

    Labour Advisory Board
    Mr. Harry Wallaceasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the composition of the Labour Advisory Board in Kenya; the number of employees' representatives; and how they are chosen.
    Mr. Lyttelton: A chairman and 14 members, of whom three represent commerce, six agriculture and five the interests of employees. Members are selected by the Government on the advice of the Labour Commissioner.
    Mr. Wallace: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that is an adequate representation of the employees?
    Mr. Lyttelton: The representation is, one African and one Indian employee; the assistant industrial relations officer, who is an African and deals with trade unions in the territory; Mr. Mattu, African member of the Legislative Council; and the Chief Native Commissioner. I think the answer to the hon. Gentleman's Question is, "Yes."

    Legislative Council (European Constituencies)
    Mr. J. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of electors in each of the 14 European constituencies provided for under the new proposals for amending the disposition of seats in the Kenya Legislative Council.
    Mr. Lyttelton: This information is not available in the Colonial Office. I am asking the Governor of Kenya to supply it and will write to the hon. Member when I receive his reply.
    Mr. Hynd: Would the Minister arrange for the information to be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Perhaps the hon. Member would put down a Question and I will then make a reply.

    Employment
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what machinery of negotiation exists in respect of conditions of employment of agricultural and dock workers in Kenya and Tanganyika.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am consulting the Governors on this matter and will write to the hon. Member.

  FIJI (HURRICANE DAMAGE AND RELIEF)
  Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further information he has had from Fiji about distress arising from the hurricane on 28th January; and what additional steps he proposes to help the island to deal with the situation.
  Mr. John Parkerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that, as a result of the recent hurricane in Fiji, the Fijians are now bartering their last personal possessions to pay for flour from the Indian storekeepers; if he will cause further inquiries to be made into the adequacy of present food supplies; and what further action the Government propose to take to bring immediate relief in view of these fresh circumstances.
  Mr. Lyttelton: As soon as I was informed of the Press reports upon the statement by the acting Chairman of the Methodist Mission in Fiji, to which this Question appears to refer, I asked the Acting Governor about them. The reports are exaggerated and refer only to a small part of the island of Viti Levu.
  The Acting Governor tells me that the Mission's representative and the District Officer concerned, since visiting the area, have published a joint statement showing that food supplies, except cultivated root crops, are plentiful. Substantial relief supplies were already in the area and distribution was being arranged when the original report of hardship was made. There may have been some bartering of
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  personal possessions for food, but my evidence is that it so it cannot have been extensive.
  According to my information adequate relief measures are being taken and no special action seems to be called for.
  Mr. Hynd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when he last answered a Question on this subject his answer was received in Fiji with a certain amount of indignation, as they regarded it as too complacent? As the Fijians are already living under poverty-stricken conditions, owing to the low price they are getting for their sugar, they feel that some generosity should be shown in this case.
  Mr. Lyttelton: I think a good deal of the local feeling was aroused by the Press reports which, on investigation, turned out to be inaccurate.
  Mr. Bernard Braine: On a point of order. May I inquire whether the right hon. Gentleman meant to include in his answer the answer to my Question, No. 37, on an identical subject? He did not say so.
  Mr. Lyttelton: I did not say so. What I did not say I did not mean.
  Mr. Dugdale: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that these quiet, unassuming, delightful people get every possible help in their time of trouble?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I echo the right hon. Gentleman's feelings about these inhabitants, but I think adequate measures are being taken. I will make further inquiries and, if any additional steps ought to be taken. I will see that they are suggested.
  Mr. Braineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give any further estimate of the damage caused by the hurricane which swept Fiji in January; and what steps have been taken to mitigate distress.
  Mr. Lyttelton: I regret that it is not yet possible to give a more accurate estimate of the damage than that given in my statement of 20th February in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. H. Nicholls). Emergency food supplies have

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  been distributed where necessary and these will continue until new crops mature.
  A request for financial assistance for sugar cane growers in the areas affected is under consideration by the Fiji Government. Supplies of building materials are being given high priority and are being directed to those purposes for which they are most urgently needed. In addition to the gifts of the New Zealand Government and Her Majesty's Government, substantial sums have been collected for relief work in New Zealand and elsewhere.
  Mr. Braine: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that answer, and allowing for the fact that the comparative effects of the disaster were less than were caused by the hurricane in Jamaica last year, may I ask if he will bear in mind that this country has always helped Colonies in facing difficulties of this kind; and will he satisfy himself that this far-off little outpost of the Empire is given all such assistance as may be required?
  Mr. Lyttelton: The sum so far raised has not yet been spent, and if there should be work outstanding thereafter, I will certainly look at it again.
  Mr. J. Hynd: Would the Minister consider as a contribution in this case the revision of the sugar agreement which at present gives this Colony much less than the world price?
  Mr. Lyttelton: That is quite another question.

  JAMAICA

    Wages and Welfare
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what increases in wages and improved welfare facilities have resulted from the increase in the price of export sugar granted to Jamaica for 1952.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am asking the Governor for this information. When I have his reply I will write to the hon. Member.

    Rice Cultivation
    Mr. Braineasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to increase rice cultivation in Jamaica.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The Jamaica Government are anxious to increase the production of rice. I am asking the Governor for details of what is being done and will write to my hon. Friend when I have a reply.

  COLONIAL WELFARE OFFICE, LIVERPOOL
  Mrs. E. M. Braddockasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has considered the resolution sent to him by the Liverpool Colonial Office Welfare Committee; and if he will postpone closing the Liverpool office until he has had a talk to the deputation requested.
  Mr. Lyttelton: My noble Friend the Under-Secretary for the Colonies will discuss the resolution of the Liverpool Advisory Committee when he meets their deputation tomorrow afternoon.
  Mrs. Braddock: While I thank the right hon. Gentleman for making those arrangements, may I ask him to bear in mind that the very many organisations which have used this service are of the opinion that the cost of closing the office will very much exceed the amount which it is suggested should be saved?
  Mr. Lyttelton: Any suggestions which emanate from the hon. Lady will receive most careful consideration.

  AFRICAN TERRITORIES

    Administrative Officers
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many district and administrative officers in the African colonies are African; what percentage of the whole this represents; and what progress is being made in the Africanisation of this service.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The information is not immediately available, but I am making inquiries and will write to the hon. Member.

    Discriminatory Administrative Practices
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in addition to the report on differential racial treatment in the laws of British African

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    territories, any report has been issued in respect of discriminatory administrative practices.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Although the report already available in the Library is primarily concerned with legislation, it also covers administrative practices and gives instances of differentiation for which no legislative sanction exists.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have scrutinised the document very carefully and that there is little reference in it to discriminatory administrative practices as such? Is there not a separate report dealing with that subject?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I think there is no other report. This is the only one. I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that the instances given are illustrative rather than comprehensive.
    Mr. Beresford Craddock: Will my right hon. Friend tell the House, when a question on racial discrimination comes up for discussion, whether the phrase, "discrimination" means discrimination by the white against the black or discrimination by the black against the white?

  TRISTAN EXPLORATION COMPANY
  Mr. Rupert Speirasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what money has been advanced by the Colonial Development Corporation to the Tristan Exploration Company (Pty.) Limited; the dates and amounts of any such advances; how far any advances have been repaid; and what has been the net trading profit of the Tristan Exploration Company for its last four financial years.
  Mr. Lyttelton: Capital of£130,000 was approved for this project in September, 1950. Details of advances to the Company and of the progress of the enterprise are matters for the Corporation.
  Mr. Speir: Is the Minister satisfied that the taxpayer is getting good value for his money in this respect? Is not this Company, although it deals with fish, apt to become another Gambia poultry scheme?
  Mr. Lyttelton: The Corporation gets capital sanction from me, and afterwards it must be answerable for the use to which it puts it.

  BRITISH SOMALILAND PROHIBITED PUBLICATIONS
  Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the publication, "New Times and Ethiopia News," a copy of which has been sent him, has been prohibited from being sent to British Somaliland; and what other papers are similarly prohibited, by whose authority, and the date of such prohibition.
  Mr. Lyttelton: The importation of this publication into the Somaliland Protectorate was prohibited on 31st March, 1950, by the Governor, who has under legislation powers to prohibit in his discretion the importation of publications which in his opinion are contrary to the public interest. I understand that the publication in question frequently contains violent attacks on the administration of the neighbouring United Nations Trust Territory of Somalia. I will send the hon. Member a list of other publications prohibited under the same authority.
  Mr. Freeman: is it not a fact that this publication is the only one supporting the United Nations' policy in the adjacent country of Somaliland, and is that, therefore, considered to be a good reason for the prohibition?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I think that the information of the hon. Member is different from mine. I said the publication contained violent attacks on the administration of the United Nations trust territory.
  Mr. Freeman: Is not a legitimate attack a recognised right of free speech? Why should this be denied if it is only an attack?
  Mr. Lyttelton: The hon. Member begs the question when he says it is legitimate criticism.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: Is it not time we stopped the publication in that country of papers which do nothing but attack British administration?
  Mr. S. Silverman: Is not this publication one that came into existence at the time of the Italian aggression upon Abyssinia, and has it not been published regularly ever since? Is not it a perfectly respectable and responsible paper, and does the right hon. Gentleman share the view that attacks on the Government are not in the public interest?
  Mr. Lyttelton: That is not at all my view. Attacks on the Government are generally in the public interest, but this publication is attacking the administration of a neighbouring territory, and in the opinion of the Governor it was against the public interest to circulate it in the Colony.

  TANGANYIKA (MANPOWER COMMITTEE)
  Mr. J. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the constitution of the Tanganyika Committee on Manpower; which of its recommendations have been accepted: and whether he will give an assurance that no registration scheme for workers of one race only will be accepted in Tanganyika.
  Mr. Lyttelton: The Committee comprised the Member for Local Government as chairman; and representatives of the major employing industries, including the High Commissioner, with a Labour Officer as secretary.
  On the rest of the Question, I will write to the hon. Member when I have consulted the Governor.
  Mr. Hynd: In view of the fact that this report contains some very important provisions regarding the penalties for desertion and absenteeism of African workers, can the Minister say why there was no African representation, and can he say whether there is any intention of implementing such sections of the report without adequate safeguards for these workers?
  Mr. Lyttelton: No. If any question of African interests is affected, it will naturally come up in the Executive or the Legislative Council. I am informed that the registration scheme proposed by the committee will not be confined to employees of one race.

  HONG KONG (TUNG TAO FIRE)
  Mr. Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to inform the House as to the steps taken by the Government of Hong Kong to provide adequate relief for those people who suffered from the fire at Tung Tao village last November.
  Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir. As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the answer:
  Emergency relief measures were concerted between the Social Welfare Office and the Kowloon City Kaifong Welfare Association. Seventy-four thousand free meals were served on the scene and 320,000 garments provided generously by the public. Distribution was carried out by volunteers from the Kaifong, ably organised by their Chairman, and great credit is due to all concerned.
  Most of the homeless resourcefully found accommodation for themselves, and few needed the temporary shelter offered them in nearby schools, etc. Only some 80 persons remained on the scene of the fire, living in a mat shed erected by the Social Welfare Department on 24th November.
  Meanwhile immediate relief was supplemented by resettlement. About 100 squatters who could find no other homes were given sites in a new settlement—Fuk Wa Village—on 26th November. By the end of December, this new village had a population of 550. Since these were the poorest squatters, free meals were issued in the village during December and each family was issued with building materials paid for from the generous public subscriptions, which, when the Relief Fund was closed just before Christmas, totalled nearly $227,000 (over£14,000).
  Concurrently, all those fire victims who wished it were registered by the Social Welfare Office. Of 2,996 families registered, no less than 848, or 28 per cent., stated that they could raised $1,200 to build approved type bungalows on approved sites. By the end of December these families were being offered sites in Kings Park and Laichikok as well as in Tung Tao and the other families are also being given assistance in finding sites.
  A relief fund raised by generous public subscriptions of over£14,000 was kept largely intact during the immediate relief period and a committee has been appointed to administer it. It is proposed to offer every fire victim his share either in cash, or in building materials, to help his resettlement.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Shipyards (Steel Supplies)
    Mr. R. Ewartasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will direct additional steel supplies to the Sunderland shipyards in view of unemployment arising there due to steel shortage.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Wingfield Digby): I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of 5th March to the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. F. Willey). I am advised that the steel shortage is not causing unemployment in the Sunderland shipyards.
    Mr. Ewart: Is the hon. Member aware that the figures given yesterday by the Minister of Labour about the unemployment position in Sunderland constitute a denial of the statement he has just made? Will he take steps to see that steel is supplied to the shipbuilding industry to obviate the continuance of unemployment existing there, or is the present policy of the Government to revert to the distressed area conditions that obtained under Tory administration before the war?
    Mr. Digby: I have made careful inquiries and I think that the hon. Member will find it is not due to the shortage of steel.
    Mr. Frederick Willeyasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how the allocation of steel for shipbuilding for the current quarter compares with the previous allocation.
    Mr. Digby: The level of allocation of steel for shipbuilding, shiprepairing and marine engineering for the period 4th February to 31st March, 1952, is slightly less than the allocation for the first quarter of 1950, the last full quarter for which allocations were previously made.
    Mr. Willey: Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the shipbuilding industry is a highly competitive industry in highly competitive world markets, and that the only way the British yards can compete with foreign yards is through speedy output, and that at the moment they are seriously prejudiced and will be prejudiced in those world markets?
    Mr. Digby: Certainly the importance of this industry is fully appreciated and its needs for steel receive most sympathetic consideration.
    Mr. Ewart: As the hon. Member has stated that there is a reduction in steel allocation, will he now tell me what the unemployment is due to, having said in a previous answer that it is not due to the reduced allocation of steel?
    Mr. Digby: The hon. Member will be aware that there are other factors in the shipbuilding industry besides the steel shortage, and if he will make inquiries I think he will find that they are the reason for the unemployment.
    Mr. Ewart: Will the hon. Member state one other factor responsible for this rise in unemployment?
    Mr. Digby: The hon. Member will be aware, for instance, that far more tankers are being produced than was the case, which tends to lead to unbalance as between the finishing trade and others, and there is always a seasonal fluctuation in employment in the shipbuilding industry.

    Dockyard Apprentices
    Brigadier Terence Clarkeasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if his attention has been drawn to the shortage of shipwright apprentices in Her Majesty's Dockyard; and what steps he is taking to rectify this matter.
    Mr. Digby: Yes, Sir. A new method of recruiting apprentices, introduced in 1950 as an experiment, has produced a marked increase in the number of recruits. Other long-term proposals are under consideration.

  PAINTED HALL, GREENWICH (SUNDAY OPENING)
  Mr. Parkerasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what steps are being taken to open the Painted Hall at Greenwich on Sundays, so that it can be visited by working Londoners and visitors from the provinces and overseas.
  Mr. Norman Doddsasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will arrange for the Painted Hall, Greenwich, to be open to visitors on Sundays for an experimental period during the forthcoming summer season.
  Mr. Digby: To open the Painted Hall, Greenwich, to visitors on Sundays will

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  involve the employment of attendants, etc., on overtime, leading to additional expense at a time when stringent economy must be our watchword. My right hon. Friend is, however, arranging for an experimental period of Sunday opening during this summer.

  COMMONWEALTH MIGRATION
  Mr. J. Langford-Holtasked the Prime Minister whether he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to report on the means to encourage large-scale Commonwealth migration.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill): I do not think that this is necessary.
  Mr. Langford-Holt: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he agrees that this is a vital matter in which this country should take interest and upon which our future prosperity, both as a nation and as an Empire, ultimately depends?
  The Prime Minister: I think that emigration from this country should be by families and representative of the population as a whole, and not simply that daring and bold men should go. We have got to stay and fight it out here. I do not think that it is necessary at this stage for us to have a Royal Commission on the subject.

  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

    Defence Establishments (Security)
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence what steps have been taken to prevent foreigners residing in this country approaching the perimeter of Service units, including radar stations, in the United Kingdom.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence (Mr. Nigel Birch): Adequate security measures are in force at all defence establishments to prevent the entry of unauthorised persons, and such steps as are possible are taken to ensure that secret equipment cannot be seen from outside perimeters.
    Air Commodore Harvey: As certain foreign diplomats are being given special permission to travel to certain parts of the country, will my hon. Friend ensure that they are routed clear of these units?
    Mr. Birch: Present regulations take account of all relevant factors.

    Soviet Troops, Eastern Germany
    Mr. WoodrowWyatt asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence what estimate he can give of recent Soviet reinforcements to their troops based on Eastern Germany; and how far the total of these troops now exceeds the previously officially-estimated 22 divisions.
    Mr. Birch: There has been some increase in the number of Soviet troops stationed in Eastern Germany during the past few months. It would not, however, be in the public interest to disclose the information that we have on this subject.
    Mr. Wyatt: Would the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is extremely important, if the country is to continue to support the arms programme, that we should be kept informed as fully as possible about any troop movements there may be in Eastern Germany or nearby, of Russian or satellite troops?
    Mr. Birch: I appreciate the point, but the hon. Gentleman will realise the importance of not compromising our sources of information.

    Long-Service Pensions
    Captain Robert Ryderasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence the basis on which pensions for long service are calculated.
    Mr. Birch: Long-service pensions for the Armed Forces represent the sum of two elements. One is calculated on the length of a man's total reckonable service. The other depends on his length of service, if any, in the ranks of leading rating or corporal and above. In addition, there is now a terminal grant, also based on rank and service, to help with resettlement. Details are given in the Appendices to Cmd. 6715 of December, 1945, and Cmd. 8323 of July, 1951
    Captain Ryder: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that two rates of pension are payable, that those who retired before September, 1950, get a lower rate than those who retire now, and that that particularly affects those who served during two wars? Will my hon. Friend consider how this anomaly can best be put right?
    Mr. Birch: My hon. and gallant Friend will have heard the remarks on this subject made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer during his Budget speech. At the moment I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend said then.

    Bacteriological Warfare Research
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence what has been the expenditure up to date on research into bacteriological warfare.
    Mr. Birch: It would not be in the public interest to give this information.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I have in my hand a cutting from the reliable French paper, "Le Monde," in which it says that we have a Dr. David Henderson carrying out experiments for the preparation of bacteriological warfare at Porton, and that he is co-operating with scientists in Detrick, Maryland, U.S.A.? Is it not a fact that we are preparing this vile form of warfare, which can only destroy humanity?
    Mr. Birch: The hon. Gentleman asked a Question on this matter on 9th June, 1948. The then Socialist Minister of Defence answered:
    "The possibility that bacteria may be used in a future war is not being overlooked. Researches are being conducted so that we may be ready to meet any situation which may arise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th June, 1948; Vol. 451, c. 2165.]
    I have nothing to add to that answer.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the hon. Gentleman argue that bacteria are a deterrent, as well as atom bombs?

  MINISTRY OF FOOD

    Home-Produced Eggs
    Colonel Sir Leonard Ropnerasked the Minister of Food the average time taken for home-produced eggs to reach the consumer.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Charles Hill): Approximately two and a half weeks.
    Sir L. Ropner: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this time shows any improvement—whether it is shorter or longer than it was a year ago?
    Dr. Hill: It is approximately the same as it was a year ago.
    Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton: In arriving at the figure of 2½weeks, does the Minister take into account the age of those elderly and unfertile eggs discharged with ignominy from incubators which are now being sold freely in retail shops?
    Dr. Hill: This is the average time for the average egg.

    Butter Supplies, Sheffield
    Mr. Frederick Mulleyasked the Minister of Food why he failed to honour the domestic butter ration in Sheffield for the week ending 1st March; and, since this is the second time this has happened this year, if he will take steps to maintain an adequate stock of butter in Sheffield to prevent a recurrence of this inconvenience to Sheffield housewives.
    Dr. Hill: My right hon. and gallant Friend is not aware that the domestic butter ration has not been honoured in Sheffield. Stocks of butter are at a seasonal low point and we have had to make delivery arrangements less convenient to traders than those we usually operate. This has on a previous occasion delayed issue of rations for a day or two, but there have been no complaints from consumers relating to the week to which the hon. Member refers.
    Mr. Mulley: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that his own Department at Sheffield issued an official statement to the local Press trying to explain why it was that the Sheffield housewives who went on Thursday, Friday or Saturday for their butter had to wait until the middle of the following week? Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to see that this does not happen again?
    Dr. Hill: There is involved at this time of the year here and there a short delay, with the result that the consumer cannot always obtain the ration on the first two days of the week. It is infrequent. We are doing our best to deal with it.
    Mr. Mulley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it was at the end of the ration period that the housewives were unable to get their butter and will he see that Sheffield is not selected for this treatment, because one does not hear of the same complaint in other parts of the country?
    Dr. Hill: I assure the hon. Member that there is no attempt to deprive Sheffield of its butter.

    Argentine Meat Discussions
    Mr. George Jegerasked the Minister of Food whether he is yet in a position to make a statement on the opening of discussions on meat with the Argentine.
    Dr. Hill: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply my right hon. and gallant Friend gave to the hon. Member for Sunderind, North (Mr. F. Willey), on Monday, 10th March.
    Mr. Jeger: Is the Minister aware that I have seen that reply, and can he confirm that, on behalf of his Department, the Foreign Office is now negotiating for meat in the Argentine?
    Dr. Hill: The responsibility for the discussions now proceeding lies with Her Majesty's Ambassador, who is suitably advised on the matter of meat.
    Mr. Jeger: Can the hon. Gentleman inform us whether Her Majesty's Ambassador is a private trader in meat?

    Bakers (Fat Allocation)
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Food whether he will allow the fat allocation to bakers and confectioners in seaside and other holiday towns where there is a very marked difference between the season and off-season demand, to be carried forward or, alternatively, allow greater amounts in the season.
    Dr. Hill: Yes, Sir. Any baker whose trade is markedly seasonal may carry forward part of his off-season allocation of fat if he gives notice in advance that he wishes to do so.
    Sir I. Fraser: But as these men could not have known that the Government would cut their fat just when the season was beginning, and as that is the time when they make their money and serve their customers, could the hon. Gentleman allow this spreading over to be retrospective?
    Dr. Hill: This arrangement has been in existence since 1941. Although it is not widely known or widely used, my right hon. and gallant Friend sees no reason to change it now.

  TELEVISION (PONTOP PIKE TRANSMITTER)
  Mr. Edward Shortasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will now give an assurance that the low-power transmitter which is to be brought into operation at Wenvoe in August, is not the one which it was previously intended to erect at Pontop Pike.
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans): I am informed that the B.B.C. has not earmarked any particular transmitter for eventual use at Pontop Pike. The low-power transmitters at either Holme Moss or Kirk o'Shotts could also be used at Pontop Pike.
  Mr. Short: Could the Minister say when the low-power transmitter will be brought into operation at Pontop Pike for the very important area of the country which manufactures a good deal of this electrical equipment?
  Mr. Gammans: That is a much wider matter, which does not come within the ambit of this Question.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Vigilant Exchange
    Mr. Sidney Marshallasked the Assistant Postmaster-General the approximate date for the turning over of the Vigilant telephone exchange from manually operated to automatic.
    Mr. Gammans: My noble Friend expects the transfer to be made in July this year.

    Telephonists (Application Form)
    Mr. S. Marshallasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he will consider sending a much more simplified form to referees where a telephonist has to be engaged than the present form P.888.W. of 23 questions all of which it is requested should be answered in words and not by placing ticks or marks in the vacant places.
    Mr. Gammans: It is most important that an applicant's record should be thoroughly examined before employment, and all the information required in the form quoted is necessary for this purpose. My noble Friend will consider how far the questions can be worded so as to require only ticks or marks in reply.

  NEW POSTAGE STAMPS
  Brigadier R. Medlicottasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if, in connection with the new postage stamps, he will introduce designs containing pictures of famous buildings and national landmarks, as has been done with success for many years in the case of postage stamps of the Colonial Empire.
  Mr. Gammans: My hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion will be borne in mind, but the size of the stamps in regular use does not lend itself to effective designs of this sort.
  Brigadier Medlicott: Is the Minister aware that a rather more imaginative range of stamps would certainly be very popular amongst foreign collectors, which is not an unimportant factor in a matter of this kind?
  Mr. Gammans: I am aware of that, but the difficulty, of course, is that the size of the small value stamps in regular use does not leave very much freedom for very elaborate designs.
  Brigadier Medlicottasked the Assistant Postmaster-General when the preparation of designs for new postage stamps is to be put in hand; and if the work of designing will be made open to competition.
  Mr. Gammans: Arrangements are already in hand. In consultation with the Council of Industrial Design, artists will be invited to compete in the matter of designs.

  R.A.F AIRFIELD, CYPRUS
  Mr. Lucasasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what decisions have been taken regarding the future use of the former Royal Air Force airfield near Tymbou in Cyprus.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): This airfield is being retained by the Royal Air Force.

  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS (CALL-UP)
  Mr. Anthony Hurdasked the Minister of Labour how many farm workers in Berkshire have become liable for call-up for National Service since 1st November last; how many appeals have been considered by the advisory tribunal; and in how many cases deferment has been granted.
  The Minister of Labour (Sir Walter Monckton): Approximately 200; 71 applications for deferment have been considered by the Berkshire Agricultural Advisory Panel, and deferment has been granted in 30 cases. Sixteen cases are still under consideration.
  Mr. Hurd: In areas like these, where there are now very strong competing claims for labour, will the Minister ensure that all factors that might adversely affect food production are looked into?
  Sir W. Monckton: I do not think there is any call at present to do more than have the careful examination which we require.
  Mr. Archer Baldwin: Will the Minister consider whether it is worth while calling up farm labourers for training when, in the event of war, it is quite unlikely that they will be called to the forces; and does he not think it would be much better that these men, instead of being called up for regular training, should be drafted to the Home Guard, in which they could serve where they might be of some use?
  Sir W. Monckton: I do not think the time has come when we could except agricultural labourers from the general liability to be called up which falls on other people.
  Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Does the Minister still maintain that the relations between his Department, the farming community and the National Farmers' Union continue to be friendly?
  Sir W. Monckton: I think our relations are friendly, although we do not always entirely agree.
  Mr. Peter Remnant: Can the Minister say in how many cases where deferment has not been granted the farmer has been

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  able to find a substitute, and, if not, are agricultural producers always to suffer?
  Sir W. Monckton: I am afraid that I could not, without notice, give information about an individual case among these 71.
  Mr. Thomas Williams: May I ask the Minister if, where an appeal is rejected and the man is called up, and it is found that no substitute is available, consideration is given to releasing the man from the Service?
  Sir W. Monckton: If that is not so now, I will look into it and see if it can be done in future.
  Mr. Langford-Holt: Will my right hon. and learned Friend satisfy himself that it is a sound principle to call up in peacetime people who will not, generally speaking, be required to serve in wartime?
  Sir W. Monckton: I am quite unable to say, in advance of the emergency that may occur one day, whether particular people would be called up.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that shepherds are being called up in my constituency, where there is a shortage of labour on the sheep farms, because of the hard winter and the needs of the lambing season, and will he give consideration to this matter, as the shepherds are now asking whether Ministers are going to be called up next?
  Sir W. Monckton: I can only say that this Minister will not be reluctant if he is taken to be a good deal younger than he is. As far as shepherds are concerned, I have already made some exceptions in regard to them.
  Colonel Alan Gomme-Duncan: Would not the Minister agree that food is the first line of defence, and, secondly, does he not think that perhaps there is undue urban bias on the advisory tribunals, which thereby do not present the true picture?
  Sir W. Monckton: I cannot agree that there is undue urban bias. We do our best to see that these tribunals function properly.
  Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman continue as long as possible to resist with all
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  his force any question of a selective call up, having regard to the disastrous results which occurred in America?
  Sir W. Monckton: I will.

  CUSTOMS EXAMINATION, PRESTWICK
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why, on 28th February, Mr. J. Bordon, a delegate from the Scottish Miners' Union, returning from a conference at Copenhagen to Prestwick Airport, was subjected to a prolonged examination and closely questioned by the airfield police as to whether he was importing Communist literature; what was the purpose of the interrogation; and under what authority it was made.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Llewellyn): My right hon. and learned Friend is informed that, when Mr. Bordon arrived on 25th January, his luggage was examined by the Customs and was found to contain some literature acquired abroad, which was shown to a police officer. Mr. Bordon was not subjected to any prolonged interrogation, nor questioned as to whether he was importing Communist literature. He left 15 minutes after entering the airport buildings. It is the duty of the officers at the ports to make such inquiries as are necessary to enable them to carry out their functions.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that I have a statement from this representative of the Scottish Miners' Union saying that he was held up for 50 minutes at the airport, that his brief case was examined for Communist literature? Is it now an offence to bring Communist literature into the country? If it is, how can the Foreign Office study Communist literature?
  Mr. Llewellyn: As to the first part of the question, I assure the hon. Gentleman that the information in my possession is that Mr. Bordon was detained for 15, and not 50, minutes, but, if the hon. Gentleman can produce evidence to the contrary, I would be quite willing to look at it. With regard to the second part of the question, I should require notice of it.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 11th March].
  [Colonel Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Question again proposed,

  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue, and to make further provision in connection with finance, so, however, that this resolution shall not extend to giving any relief from purchase tax otherwise than by making the same provision for chargeable goods of whatever description or by reducing the first, second or third rate of the tax generally for all goods to which that rate applies.

  BUDGET PROPOSALS
  3.32 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: On previous occasions when it has been my lot to reply or to comment on the Chancellor's speeches I have, I am afraid, had to draw the attention of the Committee to the contrast between those speeches and others made by him and his right hon. and hon. Friends in the past, both during the Election and before. Sometimes there has been a difference in the analysis of the situation facing the country; sometimes there has been a contradiction between election promises and Government action. This time, we certainly have our fair ration of broken pledges, to which I shall come later, but the contrast I want first of all to indicate to the Committee is a different one.
  It is the contrast between the first part and the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, between the picture of a grave crisis confronting the country, of warnings given by all sorts of people, some on the Front Bench opposite and some outside this Committee altogether, including the Prime Minister of Australia, that we were to have the toughest Budget on record, and the actual measures which the Chancellor proposes.
  I ventured earlier to express doubts about the scale of the measures which had previously been announced, and I was immediately set upon by some hon. Members opposite who questioned my
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  figures and implied that I was trying to play down the extent of the crisis. But now we are told that although there is a crisis we need not really do very much about it. We need not, for example, make any reduction in consumption this year at all. There is no need to tighten our belts. All we have to do is to keep our standard of living at the same level.
  My first question to the Chancellor is this. If the only change to be made in the Budget is a change in the distribution of existing burdens, and if, in fact, the change has no relationship to the crisis, why did we have to have an early Budget at all? Perhaps there may have been some other reason. We should certainly be interested to know how this extraordinary discrepancy can be explained.
  Before considering the actual proposals in the Budget, I want to spend a little time on the nature of the crisis, as I think it is, and I shall ask the right hon. Gentleman a good many questions of a genuine kind in an interrogative manner, that is to say, not to make party points—they will come later; hon. Members need not worry—but to clarify some of the facts and figures in what admittedly is a very difficult and confused picture.
  I begin with what obviously must be the great concern of the Chancellor and of all of us. It is the rapid rate at which the gold reserves of the sterling area have been running out. The right hon. Gentleman told us yesterday that at the end of February they were down to the already alarmingly low figure of 1,770 million dollars. That is, of course, somewhat above the lowest level reached shortly before devaluation in 1949, but since then there has been a rise in world prices, and their purchasing power is, therefore, not very much, I should suspect, above that 1949 low level figure.
  I am glad to see that the Chancellor seemed confident that within the next few weeks this trend would be reversed. I certainly very much hope it will be, but I could also have hoped that he would have given us rather more detailed arguments as to why he thought it would be reversed.
  Perhaps I might spend a few moments on the causes of this immediate situation. As I see it, the causes of the continuing decline are obviously, first of all, the continuing excess importing of dollar and other non-sterling goods by the sterling

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  area. But, secondly, I do not think there is the slightest doubt that speculative movements have played a very large part indeed throughout this period. At one time there was a tendency to throw cold water on that sort of suggestion, but now it seems to be generally accepted by all the financial pundits.
  I would ask the Chancellor and his colleagues whether they are going to do anything more about it. Are they so confident about the situation that they can sit back and leave the matter as it is now? I realise, of course, that some small steps have been taken—the reduction, for instance, in the period for which acceptance credits may be granted to foreign importers; the restrictions on refinancing to which the Chancellor referred, but did not specify very much; and, of course, he would no doubt claim that the rise in the Bank rate would have some effect here.
  I shall be coming to that question later but, in passing, I would like some explanation of exactly how the rise in the Bank rate is likely to affect this speculative possibility. After all, when people expect the£to be devalued—and I have refrained very carefully from asking the Chancellor any awkward questions on this subject, but I am bound to say this—which, undoubtedly, a great many do at the moment—one is not likely to have very much influence on them by putting up the rate of interest they have to pay for their short-term borrowing by 1 or 1½per cent. The gains to be obtained from not holding sterling and from holding on to dollars will far exceed any extra cost in the rise in interest rates.
  I still think—and I repeat it—that the Chancellor should have taken some advice I gave him, first in November and again in January—[Laughter.] Perhaps hon. Members would wait, because I do not think they should be quite happy about the situation, and I do not think there is much dispute about the danger of speculative movements. As I was saying, I suggested then that it would be a good thing if the six months during which British exporters may collect and convert their dollar earnings should now be reduced to four months.
  I do not really see why there is such a difficulty about that. I am not talking necessarily only about English people.
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  They may well be foreign importers of one kind or another. There is nothing particularly sacred about this period of six months. If the payments could be speeded up it would make an immediate difference to the gold reserve situation
  I am still very puzzled that the Chancellor has never really given us any details about what was agreed at the sterling area conference. I would ask him or the Minister of State or the President of the Board of Trade if there were precise agreements in the sense of the 1949 agreements laying down just how much in the way of non-sterling imports the different members of the sterling area were to bring in, or how much in the way of cuts in these imports they were to make. If there were such precise agreements I must say it is a great pity that the Chancellor, with the assent of his colleagues, did not say precisely what they were.
  I say that not only obviously because the various countries concerned are entitled to that information, but because a clear picture of how we in the sterling area were going to deal with this crisis would have done more than anything else to restore confidence. I still hope we may be given more information.
  The Chancellor told us yesterday, if I followed him correctly, that he has decided in recent weeks to set the sights for the sterling area higher and that he had been in touch with the Commonwealth Finance Ministers about it. Setting the sights higher is all very well, but it seems to me that the real trouble is that the original agreements have not yet been carried out. It seems to me more important to do that before we try to alter the aims. I should like to know what these additional aims are. All the Chancellor said was:
  "These are aims far more comprehensive than ever before adopted by the sterling Commonwealth."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 1277.]
  That is not really a pearl of clarity. One would like to know what is exactly meant by "more comprehensive," what exactly the aims were and how they are to be achieved.
  I come next to the announcement of the cuts in imports by the Australian Government. I must say, first of all, that it is a pity that nearly two months

  1393
  had to elapse between the Commonwealth Finance Ministers' Conference and decisions on these reduced imports. I make no reflection at all, of course, on our good friends in Australia. But I put it this way—that I would have hoped that at the Conference itself we could have had agreements reached then and there.
  After all, there is a telegram service at the disposal of the various Ministers. There is even a telephone available, and when the Conference was preceded by official discussions at which all the facts must have been laid, I should have thought it would not have been impossible to reach agreement on the spot. If agreement had been reached and it had been made public we should have been spared a great deal of anxiety in the last two months.
  I come now to a different subject, also connected with Australia. That subject is not the delay in taking action, but their decision to reduce the import of goods from the United Kingdom. Naturally, that is the affair of Australia and none of us wishes to get into the position where we would criticise that. What I say, I say with all due deference to the point of view they no doubt have. But this is bound to cause serious consequences in this country. It is bound to create unemployment.
  It is also bound to lead to reduced production in areas where there is already a great deal of unemployment; and I think I am entitled to ask the Chancellor whether this was something which was agreed at the sterling area conference. If it was not, one can only express one's regret that the Chancellor did not obtain, as he evidently did not obtain, a clear and precise agreement that this sort of thing would not happen.
  I venture to remind the Chancellor of something I wrote in the "Observer" just before the Conference. I attach a great deal of importance to it. I wrote:
  "Secondly—and this is vital—it must be agreed that as each country strives to achieve a balance, it should not be frustrated by the others. No member must try to achieve an overall balance by cutting out imports from the others. Each country must improve its balance by operating on its non-sterling trade. For this reason it will not be enough to rely on monetary deflation alone, which
  1394
  might simply lead to reduced imports from other sterling countries. Direct physical controls to foster sterling trade are essential."
  I am afraid that what I feared might happen is happening. We have all been set the task of getting into overall balance ourselves. That sounds very well, because if we are all in overall balance then the sterling area as a whole is in balance; but the trouble is we make difficulties for each other in getting into overall balance if we start this policy of cutting out each others imports. There is a glaring contrast between what is happening and the professed endeavours of the Government to stimulate Commonwealth trade.
  I do not know whether we are to have more of this sort of thing from other countries, whether, for instance, South Africa is likely to reduce her imports from the United Kingdom. I very much hope not. Has the Chancellor any anxiety lest, to achieve our own particular goal of balancing our own balance, he may be forced to restrict sterling imports to this country? If he were so forced it would be a most ludicrous situation. Alternatively, if that is not his intention one really wonders exactly what was the plan.
  Here I had better refer to something which the right hon. Gentleman said yesterday in connection with this altering of the sights. He said that our obligation was now changed. Originally, the undertaking that had been given at the Commonwealth Finance Ministers' Conference was that we should be in overall balance with the world as a whole. There would be no more than a deficit of£200 million with the non-sterling area, that is, the United Kingdom's deficit, and that would be balanced presumably by a surplus of£200 million with the sterling area. That was the original position. Now the Chancellor has told us we have a new target—a target that we must be in balance ourselves here in the United Kingdom, with the non-sterling world.
  That is really a fairly serious change; because whereas under normal conditions a deficit with the dollar area of£200 million and a surplus with the sterling area to balance it of£200 million would conform with the pattern of trade, if we are to balance our own dollar accounts in the United Kingdom it is going to be an extremely tough proposition. One wonders exactly how it is to be done.

  1395
  After all, we cannot expect to earn a continuing surplus in E.P.U. We have first to get into balance there. But it is quite contrary to the whole idea of the European Payments Union that any country should create a surplus and draw gold in this way. Let us consider the scale of this. The Chancellor told us that in the second half of last year we had a deficit with the non-sterling world running at the rate of£1,200 million a year, I believe. Correspondingly, presumably, since the overall deficit was£800 million there was a surplus with the sterling area of£400 million.
  I think it would not have been easy even to cut back to the£200 million deficit, but if that has to be eliminated altogether it involves a tremendous problem for us. The Chancellor has underlined the immense difficulties for the United Kingdom in cutting down any further imports from the dollar area, but if we cannot cut down any further we have presumably to make up the balance by larger exports. I am all in favour of that, but do not let us have any illusions about it. It will not be an easy job.
  Incidentally, in this picture of the sterling area, I should like to know what is to happen to the dollar surpluses of colonial territories, which are the most consistent earners of dollar surpluses. Since we do not need them, are they going to some other part of the sterling area? I ask this question in no desire to accuse any other Government or to get into a quarrel with any of our friends in the Commonwealth, but I think that the British Parliament and people are entitled to know exactly what has been undertaken by them as part of the common effort.
  I come now to the position of the United Kingdom. As I have said, one cannot but conclude that this change, about which we were told only yesterday, has certainly made our task of getting into an overall balance very much more difficult, because of the resrictions imposed on us with regard to exports to the sterling area. As I understand it, as part and parcel of the whole plan, we are apparently to endeavour not merely to expand our exports to the dollar area but also to cut our exports to the rest of the sterling area.
  I do not know whether the Chancellor has yet made that clear to industry. It
  1396
  is a very important change. Hitherto, there has certainly been some preference for dollar exports. Now it seems that no priority whatever should be given to exports to the sterling area. Perhaps we could have some explanation of this.
  Leaving on one side that difficult background, we come to the question how we are to get into overall balance. Here, I find the figures confusing. Perhaps the Chancellor will listen to what I say and correct me as I go on, so that we may get the right figures. He said there would be another£100 million cut in imports. That make£600 million in all. First of all we had a cut of£350 million; then another£150 million, and now we have another£100 million. Yet the Chancellor said this was 10 per cent. of our 1951 imports, and 15 per cent. of the rate of imports in the second half of the year.
  I have tried to marry the figures up; but the White Paper on National Income—which is the only official publication which gives a forecast of the balance of payments position last year—puts our imports in 1951 not at£6,000 million, which is implied by what the Chancellor said, but at£3,495 million. As I say, these are confusions to which, I am sure, there is some answer, but I do not understand it.
  He told us that the gap to be closed was£600 million, not£800 million as some of his hon. Friends have previously suggested. I do not quarrel with that; I think the probable assumption is that although the rate of deficit was very high in the second half of last year, nevertheless there were abnormal features about that which would not normally be expected to continue.
  Let us see how we propose to close that gap. The Chancellor told us that from improvements in the terms of trade and higher invisible exports he hoped to get£250 million, and he was good enough to let me know—following his speech yesterday—that the increase in invisibles would be£100 million. Presumably the increased improvement in the terms of trade would be£150 million, which was, in fact, exactly what I estimated in January. At least we seem to be in agreement there. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite seem to be very worried about my predictions. I can understand that it is annoying for them to see the Chancellor agreeing with me.
  Sir Herbert Williams: The right hon. Gentleman is too sensitive.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am not sensitive to the hon. Member anyway.
  How are we to deal with this gap of£600 million? We are to have import cuts of£300 million; but how is this to be explained in relation to the£600 million we are already told we have had? I do not understand it. Of this£300 million,£175 million is accounted for by changes in stocks, leaving a figure of another£125 million for reduction in available resources.
  To that is added another£50 million for exports, and so the Chancellor gets from somewhere a figure of£200 million as the amount of reduction in resources for use at home. I think it is actually£175 million, but obviously there is no need to worry about a narrow margin like that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The Chancellor does not worry about it, anyway. He merely said, "£175 million or£200 million" and I do not quarrel with him. He then added£200 million for defence, giving a total burden of£400 million.
  Against this he expected£250 million from increased production and£100 million from reduced investments or call it, perhaps,£150 million. Therefore, he reached what I think must have been to all of us the surprising conclusion that we need not reduce consumption at all this year. That is very gratifying, but I want to ask him a few questions about it.
  What relation has this analysis to all the earlier decisions for cuts in imports—which I have mentioned already—and for cuts in investment? Towards the end of January the Chancellor told us that he was going to cut investments by physical means—supported by monetary measures—by£200 million. Is the Government going ahead with those cuts in investment on the physical basis? If so, why have they been suddenly cut down from£200 million to£100 million?
  In that speech in January the Chancellor also mentioned the fact that there would be a reduction of£70 million in consumer goods supplied to the home market. He said nothing about that yesterday. Could we be informed whether these consumer cuts—in relation to television sets, wireless sets, gas and electric
  1398
  appliances, and so on—have all been dropped or whether they are going ahead?
  There is one other question with regard to this extremely tangled story—and it is not my tangle. If the rate of consumption this year is not to be changed—if there is to be no reduction at all—are the cuts in consumption that have already been made—that is to say—the reduced imports from Europe, the reduced meat and the reduced textiles, and so on, which we were told about earlier—and if the Government are going ahead with the reduction in the supply of television sets, and so on, are all these reductions too, which would lead to lower consumption this year, to be offset by increases elsewhere?
  I think we might have an answer from the Government on this, because it may be that it would be helpful to us. If, for instance, the Chancellor says that he thinks we could increase our consumption of textiles in areas where there is heavy unemployment, it would give a great deal of satisfaction, though policy would have to be adapted accordingly. But, if that is the case, I find it difficult to understand why the Chancellor can talk in terms of a great transfer of labour from consumer industries to the armament industry. He cannot have it both ways. Some of his hon. Friends have written letters to "The Times" and other publications, emphasising the importance of transitional unemployment and saying that we need not worry about unemployment in the textile industry because the unemployed would all drift into the armament industry. It may be embarrassing for them to realise the line he now seems to be taking.
  I come now to the Bank rate. As usual, no case has been made out for the rise in the Bank rate. We are not told how it is to operate and what its consequences will be. I want to ask what the Government will do to ensure that it is made effective, to use a technical phrase, and, generally, what the consequences are. First of all, is there to be a rise in other interest rates? I remember the Secretary of State for the Colonies, speaking on this subject in November, explaining that, of course, automatically there was a rise in all other interest rates. Is there to be such a rise? Will it affect the Treasury bill rate?

  1399
  I think I am right in saying that the Treasury bill rate is running at just over 1 per cent. at the moment. That change from the½per cent. at which we started cost the Exchequer, gross, something like£30 million a year. If, therefore, it is to go up, as "The Times" suggested, to 2½per cent.—by another 1½per cent.—then, according to my reckoning, that will involve an additional gross cost to the Exchequer of no less than£75 million.
  Mr. Beresford Craddock: What is it net?
  Mr. Gaitskell: Net? A little more than half—and quite enough, too; the hon. Gentleman is always preaching the virtues of economy to us, and perhaps he will now think about it.
  That is not the only rate of interest with which we are concerned. We are very much concerned about the rate of interest to be charged to local authorities. Is that to go up? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] If so—and I think the right hon. Gentleman might answer this one—can we have an assurance that the housing subsidy will once again be reviewed and raised? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] The right hon. Gentleman does not accept my invitation to reply. I am sure that my hon. Friends will not be surprised at his unwillingness to speak on this subject, in view of the contradictory statements which have been issued on it in the past. I ask him, next time, to ensure that when the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health comes to the House, he tells the right story.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Harry Crookshank): The Minister of Housing and Local Government.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon; I meant the Minister of Housing and Local Government. I am sure that the Leader of the House would never make such a mistake.
  Associated with this is, of course, the rate to be charged under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act. [Laughter.] It is all very well for the Government to laugh about this, but I understood that they were rather keen on people buying their own houses. This is certainly a strange way to go about it—by making it a great deal more difficult for them to do so.
  1400
  Are we to assume that, as a result of the rise in the Bank rate, there is to be a further tightening of credit? Is there to be a further reduction in bank advances, for example? What exactly has the Chancellor in mind here? Is it to try to induce traders and manufacturers to disgorge stocks? There may be something to be said for that, and I should like to know whether allowance has been made for it in the estimates of investment which the right hon. Gentleman has put forward, which seem to be pretty rocky anyway.
  I was pleased to see—as were we all—that the Chancellor was apprehensive about the danger of unemployment in the consumer goods industries. I very much hope that he will not allow that good intention to be swept aside by a desire to turn the credit screw into a real deflationary policy. I do not for one moment deny that it may be necessary—it certainly is necessary—to keep a tight hold on credit in the present circumstances. Our quarrel has always been not on that but on the high rates of interest which the Government's policy have involved and which I do not believe to be necessary, although I do not want to go all over that again today. We should, nevertheless, say this to him: it is something which he has to watch very carefully indeed, because we could very easily get into a serious deflationary spiral.
  I come to the subject of expenditure, and I should like to begin by reminding hon. Members of their attitude on this subject. The Prime Minister made a number of speeches in the last Parliament, and in the previous Parliament, in which he always produced the same words, which ultimately appeared in the Conservative Manifesto before the last Election. In his classical style, he said of the Labour Government
  "…they have spent more than£10 million a day, or£22,000 million in their six years. No community living in a world of competing nations can possibly afford such frantic extravagances."
  That does not stand up very well in comparison with what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done. I do not know whether that phrase was meant to indicate that we might perhaps, with great difficulty, make a cut of£50 million.
  Then there was, of course, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Works. He made a speech suggesting that there should be a reduction of£700 million. I

  1401
  understand that the speech was circulated to all candidates, or members, of the Conservative Party at the special request of the Prime Minister. Again, it is rather a striking contrast. The Chancellor comes to the House and says, "I have done extremely well: we have saved£50 million."
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): The right hon. Gentleman is an expert economist. I think be might do me the honour of remembering that when I referred to£50 million I said I was referring to£50 million measured in resources.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I quite agree; I was coming to that.
  I asked myself whether there really was this saving of£50 million and, if so, how. Here again, I must say that I find the figures a little peculiar. The first thing to be said is this: that, leaving out the defence estimates, we have, nevertheless, an increase of£40 million in the Consolidated Fund, of which at least£25 million is increased interest charges. I presume that that is associated with the rise in interest rates.
  It is no use the right hon. Gentleman leaving that on one side; we happen to disagree with the policy of raising the bank rate and the Treasury bill rate and, of course, he must take that into account. That puts up the total of civil expenditure above last year's level. The right hon. Gentleman says, "Oh, well, that is just a monetary change; the monetary change is greater, but the real change is less."
  There has, of course, been a rise in costs over the last year but, if I may say so, there was a rise over the previous year, as the Financial Secretary was so very keen to point out when he was being assailed from all quarters in an earlier debate. Despite the rise, we managed last year to keep the civil expenditure broadly at the same level—despite increasing costs. The right hon. Gentleman has nearly done the same. That is what all these tremendous administrative economies amount to.
  I would ask the right hon. Gentleman one last question on the total here. He claims that what he calls the other civil expenditure, which he now seems to realise—and I hope hon. Members opposite do, too—is very small indeed, is£432 million this year, which he says is
  1402
  less by£30 million than last year. I have been trying to find out the figures from the Vote on Account, which is the only complete statement we have had so far, and according to my figures I make the other civil expenditure this year£515 million against£520 million last year.
  We should look at the reductions and how they have been made. Some have been just lucky for the Government—for example, the reduction of£6 million in civil aviation. Of course, most of that is due to the work done by my noble and hon. Friends who were Ministers of Civil Aviation, and certainly it is not for the Government to claim credit for it. Then there is the mysterious item called "Silver,"£4½million down, which, I suspect, is not exactly an administrative economy. Then there is the Festival of Britain, which gives another£4 million—and these are all lucky dips which the Government have had.
  Now we come to some policy changes. There has been a reduction in Foreign Office grants of£5½million. Could we be told what the reductions were? Then there has been a reduction, which I am sure we all regret, of£5 million in expenditure on colonial development. I should be surprised if hon. Members opposite showed much enthusiasm for this.
  Sir H. Williams: A saving on groundnuts.
  Mr. Gaitskell: This has nothing to do with groundnuts, for which there was a separate Vote. There is a reduction on groundnuts, but that was due to us. I thought hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite wanted something to cheer them up, and so I let them have that.
  Then there is a reduction in loans for Development Areas of£3 million. That is a very serious thing to do. There is a reduction in advances to Allies of£4 million and a reduction of£7 million in the Ministry of Supply assistance to industry. These items alone amount to nearly£40 million, and, therefore, as I say, I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman really can now make anything at all of those boasts about economies. That particular balloon has been well and truly pricked once for all.
  I turn to the measures put forward. I do not propose to say much about the Excess Profits Tax. It does not affect the Budget

  1403
  this year. It is a very complex affair, and I should prefer to have a little more time to study the proposals in detail. However, I am bound to remind the Committee that the Excess Profits Tax brought in after the war was generally regarded by industry as a tax designed to encourage waste. I do not think that hon. Members who are in industry will disagree with that. It was, in fact, a thoroughly bad tax. Nevertheless, the Government are adopting it.
  I should also like to know whether any of the yield of this tax comes in out of undistributed profits. This is, of course, a point which the Minister of State for Economic Affairs was very fond of making last year when he was sitting on these benches. Since he is so keen about it, perhaps he can find out the answer to it this time.
  I come next to a much more important matter as far as we are immediately concerned, that affects this year's Budget very intimately, and that is the so called D scheme—the Douglas Committee Report proposals. All of us recognise, I think, that under the so called G.A.T.T. Agreement we had to do something to remove the charge of discrimination which is at present levied against us, and I think, too, we should agree that the "blind spot" caused when the tax changes is a disadvantage; but I am bound to say that the Douglas Committee, while recommending these proposals in general, did not make any specific recommendation on the level of D and, therefore, on the level of tax. What it did was to say, "You should have a scheme of this kind and the level of D should, at any rate, not be lower than half way up the utility range."
  What will happen as a result of this in the light of the Government's specific proposals? The right hon. Gentleman did not tell us very much, but we are to have a tax imposed in the top, upper range of utility goods—goods which previously were wholly exempt from tax. That brings in extra money, but the Chancellor is not going to get that money. That is money to be given back in the tax on nonutilities—in varying degrees, admittedly—more on the cheaper items in the non-utility; but there will be some benefit to all non-utility.
  Indeed, the effect of this is to be that those persons who normally buy non
  1404
  utility goods will gain and those who buy the upper and perhaps middle ranges of utility goods will lose. It is, therefore, on the face of it, a definite, though, I agree, a limited, redistribution of income in favour of better off people. It is—
  Sir H. Williams rose—
  Mr. Gaitskell: Let me finish what I am saying. It is a forerunner of other things to come in the Budget. Now does the hon. Gentleman wish to ask me a question?
  Sir H. Williams: Why did not the right hon. Gentleman apply the same principle to the Rolls Royce cars—I think it was—a year ago?
  Mr. Gaitskell: That was a very special case, and it was in order to maintain production at all.
  There is certainly no occasion for imposing an extra tax on utility. That is what we are complaining about. We are not objecting to a reduction in tax on non-utility: we are objecting to the increase of tax on utility. Incidentally, I would ask the President of the Board of Trade, who, I believe, is to speak later, whether it is definitely the case that children's clothing is completely outside the scheme so that it will continue to bear no tax. I just want a reassurance, because we have had approaches on that matter.
  The other thing I wanted to say was this. We are much concerned to ensure that the Utility scheme in a stable form, an effective form, should continue. We read in the Douglas Committee's Report that weaknesses now exist. Some of my hon. and right hon. Friends thinks these weaknesses exaggerated in the Report. No doubt, they will explain their point of view later. However, I think we are agreed that if there are weaknesses they should be put right, and we do want to see a scheme giving a guaranteed quality article at a controlled price.
  One other thing I would say is that, obviously, the introduction of this scheme will make it very much easier for imports to come in from abroad. The Chancellor will have to take that into account in considering the balance of payments problem. I do not propose to press him further on that now.
  As to the Entertainments Duty, I am informed that the effect of this increased taxation on the football clubs is ex

  1405
  tremely serious. Many of them are already finding it hard to carry on, and I must say that we should like to discuss this in greater detail later. I do regret that the review of the Entertainments Duty which we undertook to make last year has not been carried out with more imagination than the Government seem to have displayed. After all, it is a very simple thing just to put up the tax on football and cricket and to bring it down on speedways. Surely we could have had something more scientific than that? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why did not the right hon. Gentleman do it?"]
  Now I come to the main features of the Budget. The first thing, of course, that is abundantly clear is that none of the measures that I am now going to discuss—the main features of the Budget—is necessary to get our balance of payments position right or to complete the re-armament programme. The Chancellor fully admitted that there is no question of imposing an additional burden. All that is involved is a redistribution of existing burdens.
  How is it to be done? There is to be an increase in the petrol tax, bringing in£66 million; there are to be food price increases bringing in£160 million; there is to be an increase in the National Insurance contributions by 7½d. per employee per week. I do not quite understand, and the Chancellor did not tell us, whether it is to be£25 million from the employees or£50 million taking the employees and the employers together.
  I reckoned it out to be something like that, but we should like to know, and perhaps someone will tell us, because, after all, this is a burden imposed on the people of the country; and we should like to know. In addition, there is to be a further£10 million rise from increasing postal charges. These are the major increases.
  As to the benefits there is an increase in the social services amounting to£80 million, and tax reliefs amounting to£180 million. So far as the social services are concerned, the Chancellor has made it quite plain that the increase in old age pensions is fully paid for by the increase in contributions. If I am wrong, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will correct me. Reading his speech, it seemed to me to imply that at present contributions from employers and employees would fully
  1406
  cover that. If that is not the case, perhaps we could be told exactly how much in this case is the extra burden on the Exchequer. Indeed, it is a little difficult to see just how the Chancellor of the Exchequer arrived at that figure of£80 million as the total cost to the Exchequer, and the increase in the social service benefits.
  Sir H. Williams: May I put a point to the right hon. Gentleman?
  Mr. Gaitskell: The hon. Gentleman will surely have plenty of opportunity.
  I come next to the Petrol Duty. I was told last year and the year before by hon. and right hon. Members opposite, who spoke with great eloquence on this subject, what disastrous and widespread effects an increase in the Petrol Duty of 4½d. would have on fares and prices generally. That was the view of hon. and right hon. Members opposite, when they were in Opposition, of an increase of a lower level at a lower level; and now they are proposing to put it up further to a much higher level.
  No doubt the President of the Board of Trade will have an opportunity of explaining this change of mind. I am sure hon. Members opposite must be feeling a little uncomfortable about this, and I quite understand their position. We have already been told that the London Passenger Transport Board will have an increase of over£1 million and the Road Haulage Executive of over£5 million. This time the Government cannot escape responsibility for the ensuing increase in fares.
  Now we come to what is really the central feature of the Budget, and I must congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on an extraordinary clever trick of presentation. It is not usual for Chancellors to produce rabbits out of hats nowadays, but he certainly was a very effective illusionist. What did he do? He took the food price increases and said "Well, that does involve some increase," and he set against them the increases in the social service payments and the reduced taxation, as though these two had to be compared with one another.
  It is, of course, nothing of the kind. What are the figures? The tax relief costs£180 million and the social services another£80 million, giving a total of£260 million. The food subsidies, on the

  1407
  other hand, bring in£160 million. No wonder it looks very good if there is an extra£100 million stored up his sleeve. Of course, it was balanced, as he later explained—and I compliment him on his skill—by the increase in the Petrol Duty, the increase in the postage, and the final give-away of£24 million.
  The fact is that the Government could have financed the whole of the increased social service benefits out of the increase in the Petrol Duty and the give-away of£24 million, or even less than that. I must say straight away that we support the increases in the social services, regarding them in present circumstances as in some respect inadequate. [Laughter.] Hon. Members can laugh, but they had better wait until they hear the explanation, because they may laugh on the other side of their faces before long.
  Now let us take the food subsidy cuts, the rise in food prices and the tax reliefs and set them against one another, because that is the real issue which the Committee has to face. Is this a sound and right policy or not? We have all been made familiar with the point of view of the party opposite on food subsidies. There was Lord Waverley, who was very enthusiastically for them, and it is perhaps just as well that he is not Chairman of the Royal Commission on Taxation in present circumstances.
  But while there has been one very honourable resignation, there is another noble Lord who has not yet resigned, and that, of course, is the noble Lord, Lord Woolton. "Not a word of truth," he said in his broadcast, "in the story that the Tories are to cut the food subsidies." We shall look forward with interest to the news and the exchange of correspondence which may happen in the next few days. No doubt the Prime Minister will also regale the country with a long list of Lord Woolton's attainments in the past.
  Now I come to some of the things that the Chancellor himself had to say of this subject yesterday. I must say that I found some of his arguments rather strange. He talked about the necessity of bringing reality home to the people. Well, it certainly has been brought home to them—the reality about the Tory Government. But what an argument! He tries to shelter himself behind some words quoted
  1408
  at random from Sir Stafford Cripps. It really was not quite worthy of the right hon. Gentleman to imply the support of Sir Stafford Cripps for cutting the food subsidies by£160 million, when, in fact, Sir Stafford Cripps maintained the subsidies at£410 million. That really is not up to the Chancellor's usual standard, if I may say so.
  What else did he say? He said some very queer things on people's morals. He seemed to take very ill to the idea—he made reference to it in his broadcast last night—of people having a little money in their pockets. "Subsidies," he said, "have put about 3s. 6d. in his pocket which he can walk round the corner and spend on cigarettes and beer, or the dogs or the pools. It does not matter if he is a Surtax payer; he gets it just the same." We will come to the Surtax payer later, and very interesting it is, too.
  I do not know what the Chancellor is objecting to. If a man does go round the corner and spend it on cigarettes the Chancellor gets seven-eighths of it. I am bound to tell him that, as far as my constituents are concerned, the idea that the food subsidies have left them with enormous sums in their pockets to spend on inessentials is very very wide of the mark. What the food subsidies have done for my constituents is to enable them to buy their rations. I wonder whether, when these increases have taken place, we shall find the Conservative Party joyfully taking off rationing and proclaiming that they are at last fulfilling their obligation and pledge of removing controls?
  I come finally to the most respectable argument of all. It is this. "Here," says the right hon. Gentleman, "are food subsidies going to everybody free of tax, rich or poor. It is a scandal. It is a waste of money. We do not see why it should go to the millionaire or the Cabinet Minister, but so far as the hard-up people are concerned we can make it up in other ways." This is what he actually said:
  "we undertook to review the subsidies and other methods of paying out the public's money so that those in the greatest need get the most benefit."
  Then he went on to say:
  "We subsidise the staple foods not only when they are consumed in the ordinary forms, but when they are ingredients in expensive luxuries."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 11th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 1298–9.]

  1409
  Let us see what is the balance of gain and loss in this operation. The argument the Government put forward is, "We are going to take it away from the rich and make it up to the poor." Let us see how they do that. Let us take the position of a single person, to start with, earning£4 10s. a week or less. He gets no gain at all. If he is earning only£3 10s. a week he loses to the extent of 1s. 4d. a week.
  Sir H. Williams: Where is he?
  Mr. Gaitskell: There are plenty of women in my constituency, and may be even a few in the hon. Member's constituency.
  These are the poorest of the poor, and they will be worse off as a result of this action. Take the position of a married couple without children. All earning£7 a week or less will be worse off. The£6 a week man, and there are plenty of them—are worse off to the extent of 2s. 1½d. per week. That is how the Government do justice. That is how they relieve hardship. That is how they redistribute income to take it away from the rich.
  A married couple with one child have to earn over£9 a week if they are to gain at all. A couple earning£8 a week—a very common wage—would be 2s.1½d. worse off. I do not think that I need trouble the Committee with a great many examples, because hon. Members can work them out for themselves; they are provided very conveniently in the White Paper on the Financial. Statement.
  If we take a married couple with two children, they still lose at£10 a week, and with three children at£12 2s. a week. I will give the exact figures. The£12 per week gain is£15 10s. and the loss£18 15s. on the year. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about family allowances? "] Family allowances could have been provided easily through the petrol tax without the food subsidies. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. Members had better consider, if they do not like that, exactly what was the purpose of raising the petrol tax. [An HON. MEMBER: "Talk about sleight of hand."] Hon. Members will be interested in these figures—the benefits obtained by this redistribution.
  A single person earning£1,000 a year is 12s. a week better off. Even the man
  1410
  with£1,000 a year of wholly unearned income is 7s. 10½d. a week better off. To go to the other extreme, a married couple with three children, at£1,000 a year, are 18s. 7d. a week better off—that is 17s. 11d. better off if the income is unearned. [Interruption.] I welcome the evident desire of hon. Members opposite to study the White Paper. The more they do so the better we shall be pleased.
  Let me take the claim that 2,000,000 people have been relieved of tax. I wonder how many of those get any net gain out of this? Certainly the single people, the married couples without children, and the married couples with one or two children who are relieved of taxes are all worse off. I cannot say from the figures available how many are better off, but I challenge the Chancellor to tell us, and who they are.
  I would like to say a word about old-age pensioners. We are told that there will be, or may be, an increase of 54s. a week for a married couple. I apologise to the Committee; what I mean is that the rate will be up to 54s. a week—4s. only. Of course, 3s. has already gone in the food subsidies. We have been warned of another£50 million food price increases to come, and, on the Chancellor's arithmetic, that seems to make another sixpence—
  Mr. Butler: That is not so. Account was taken of any possible extras. I did intend to give the full facts to the Committee in the figure I gave of the possible increase of 1s. 6d. per week. So the extra£50 million to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is taken into account.
  Mr. Gaitskell: We can then be assured by the Chancellor that there is no danger of any increase in food prices beyond the 1s. 6d. per week which he has announced.
  Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman must not be unfair. I have expressed already my admiration for the fact that he is a trained economist. I am relating this to a particular operation. I am not personally responsible for the conduct of food operations in this country, and it would be quite unfair for me to give any other guarantee than I have done. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The Committee must be sensible about this. I am giving the estimate of the effect of my Budget changes on the average household budget

  1411
  per head per week, to the best of my ability and as honourably as I can.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The point was not whether the Budget changes had this effect, but whether the other£50 million had it. However, we accept the right hon. Gentleman's assurance on that. He has overlooked the fact that there has already been a substantial increase in prices, and I should have thought that most of us would agree—I know that we cannot do this every month because of the legislative procedure—that it was right to bring up the level of old-age pensions broadly in accordance with the rise in the cost of living. Since the last Bill was passed in July, I understand that the rise in prices amounts to 2s. 6d. per week. If that is so, of course it is quite obvious that even after the 54s. the old-age pensioners are still going to be worse off.
  Mr. Spencer Summers rose—
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am very sorry—I really am going on too long.
  But that is not all. Does the Chancellor really think that matters will rest there? Does he think that all these low-paid wage earners are going to be content to accept this rise in prices? Is it not absolutely certain that there will be an immediate demand for higher wages—and who would blame the lower paid workers for asking for compensation? After all, we are not, as a nation, being asked to reduce consumption. It is not a question of sharing out sacrifices; it is a just a question of taking away from these poor people and giving it to somebody else.
  Here we have a major cause of upward prices in our economy. I would be the last person to deny that. I have described the effect and given warning about it to the trade unions, at the Trades Union Congress, and I have spoken about it time and time again in the House, as did my predecessor. It is most dangerous to take a step of this kind, which can but turn the inflationary spiral still faster. What will the effects be? I do not want to go over all the ground, but let us take one alone.
  We all agree that it is essential to put our balance of payments right. Is the rise in wages going to improve our competitive position? Is it really going to help?
  1412
  Is not there some danger that this action will set in motion those forces of creeping inflation, as it is sometimes described—cumulative forces—whereby prices rise, people expect them to rise, wages rise and savings decline—all these difficulties which we have been endeavouring to handle in common with trade union leaders?
  I do not pretend to the Committee for one moment that this is easy. I do not pretend that we have yet found a solution, but if we want full employment we have to find a solution. How do the Government intend to deal with this? I understand that the Chancellor saw the T.U.C. leaders right at the beginning of his term of office and has not seen them since. Well, he has to make his own engagements, but I hope very much that he will not be quite so distant, if I may say so, from them. I am sure it would have been a very valuable thing if, without disclosing any Budget secrets, he had at least discussed in general terms the wage position with them.
  Mr. Butler: I think that I ought to say this, because it would be damaging to the country as a whole if it were thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not wish to meet the trade union leaders. I feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to convey that impression.
  For one reason or another there is a very important body called the National Advisory Committee for production in industry. For a reason quite beyond my control and the members' control, the meeting had to be postponed. That is very regrettable, but we are having that meeting at not too distant a date, and I assure trade union leaders that, through this opportunity, it is the desire both of myself and the Government to maintain the closest possible contact with them.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I am very glad indeed that the right hon. Gentleman has made that statement, because I can assure him that it will clear up what might have been a very serious misunderstanding.
  How do the Government intend to deal with this. Is it perhaps—believe me, there are suspicions of this kind going round, and it is not surprising in view of what some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite used to say when they were on these benches—that they hope somehow or other to deal with the problem of the wage-price spiral by curtailing

  1413
  demand and producing enough unemployment to fortify employers in rejecting wage increases and weaken the trade unions in claiming them? If that is so, all I can say is that it is a most dangerous course to follow, because it is bound to lead to industrial conflict. Industrial conflict, or unemployment, which is the apparent alternative, will do infinitely more harm to production than anything which could possibly have been achieved by this redistribution.
  This is, in essence, a clever Budget. As one of my hon. Friends said to me, it is just a little too clever. It was cleverly presented. If I may say so to the right hon. Gentleman—I do not mean it in an offensive spirit, but as a criticism[Laughter]—no, not in an offensive spirit—I thought it was just a little too cleverly presented.
  It will please the Right Wing Press, for it is a party Budget. It may even reassure some of the more Right Wing critics of the right hon. Gentleman in his own party that a Tory Progressive is not really so terribly dangerous after all. That it breaks Election pledges is now, alas, becoming so much a common form that I imagine hon. Members opposite are hardened to it.
  But, stripped of all disguises, it is a lamentable move to take from poor people and to give to wealthier. It cannot but encourage inflation, and its final effects will, in my opinion, endanger production seriously. Above all, at a critical moment in our history, when we needed a call to rally us to meet a common danger—[HON. MEMBERS "Oh."]—yes, we did it when we were on the other side—and to accept common sacrifices, to quote the right hon. Gentleman, this Budget divides and weakens us. It is not the "Right Road for Britain"; it is the wrong road.
  4.42 p.m.
  Mr. Ralph Assheton: We have listened to the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), addressing the Committee for a considerable time, but in the course of his remarks he has not added very much by way of constructive criticism. He must have forgotten very quickly how hard it is to make a Budget and how easy it is to criticise one.
  My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, as "The Times"
  1414
  said, an appallingly difficult task. We all recognise that. Nevertheless, he discharged the task with courage, skill and imagination. I thought the headline of "The Times" leader, "A Hopeful Budget," was good, but I have also heard people in the streets today call it a fair Budget, and that must be very pleasant to any Chancellor of the Exchequer to hear. I believe it is a Budget which will impress the world overseas and thus increase confidence in this country, on which so much depends. It is certainly a brave and realistic Budget; above all. it is not a vindictive one.
  I propose now to deal, perhaps somewhat scrappily, with some of the points which have been raised so far in the debate. The Chancellor has always had a good deal of time to think out his Budget speech, whereas those who have to speak on the next day have not had very much time to consider it. That is something which the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, must have felt very much during the last 24 hours.
  One thing which has been criticised most severely so far is the rise in the Bank rate. There is one very important point about the Bank rate to which the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, did not refer, namely, that the Bank rate is a flexible instrument. A great many people do not remember how the Bank rate used to work in the old days. The system had the great merit that the Bank rate could be altered every Thursday, and it could even be altered on another day of the week if necessary.
  The Budget only comes once a year, and, therefore, the plans and arrangements which we make in the Budget cannot very easily be altered as the year goes on, but the Bank rate can quite easily be altered. If the Chancellor feels it desirable, he can suggest to the Governor of the Bank of England any day either the raising or lowering of the Bank rate. That is an important point which should be borne in mind.
  The question may be asked: Why should the Bank rate now be raised? There are a number of good reasons for it. In the first place, raising the Bank rate checks inflation. I do not quite know where the Opposition stand in regard to inflation. I read an article in today's "Daily Herald" by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea,

  1415
  North (Mr. Jay), in which he said that this was a most inflationary Budget. He said:
  "This is really the first actively and openly inflationary Budget since the war."
  But the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, has been telling us that this is a deflationary Budget.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I did not say that. I expressed some anxiety about the effects of the credit restrictions if they were carried too far.
  Mr. Assheton: I do not want to misinterpret the right hon. Gentleman, but he had fears about that. In his article in the "Daily Herald" the right hon. Member for Battersea, North, said that this was an inflationary Budget, and I have been wondering if some hon. Members opposite fear that it is a deflationary Budget.
  What are some of the reasons for raising the Bank rate? To begin with, it restricts borrowing, it restricts investment and it frees capital goods, which would have been bought by people at home, for the export market. It has a tendency to make manufacturers and others reduce stocks. A great many people have been carrying stocks which are rather too big. Once those stocks are released, there is a tendency for prices to come down, and I have no doubt that my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite would like to see that happen.
  One of the classical advantages of raising the Bank rate is that it draws in money from overseas because the higher rate of interest tempts people to send their money here. For example, someone in France may find it more attractive to put his money in London where he will get a higher rate of interest.
  The chief attack made by hon. Members opposite on the occasion of the last increase in the Bank rate was that it put a lot of money into the pockets of bankers. I am glad that the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, has evidently made up his mind that that is no longer a valid criticism, for he said nothing about it.
  It is not the bankers who get an advantage from the raising of the Bank rate. What happens is that the bankers have to pay more interest to the depositors. The deposit rate has recently been
  1416
  three-quarters of 1 per cent. In future it will probably be 2 per cent. It is those depositors who are going to get some of the extra interest which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has got to pay, and they are spread right over the community.
  Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas: And who will pay the extra interest?
  Mr. Assheton: The taxpayers will pay some of it and some of it will be paid by other people. Advances will be more expensive, as will Treasury bills. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South, asked if Treasury bill rates would go up. I am not in the confidence of the Government, but I can assure him that they will. It is quite clear that these arrangements would not have been made if Treasury bill rates were not going to go up. I think they will be about 2¼per cent., but we will see.
  The bankers themselves are large holders of gilt-edged securities. If one looks at the Stock Exchange prices today, it will be seen that there has been a heavy fall, for example, in the gilt-edged stock created by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton). It is standing only at 57 today. It has tumbled a long way from 100. I remember addressing the House when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer and comparing him with Humpty Dumpty, but I hardly thought his stock would fall as far as all that. I hope we shall not hear any more suggestions that the rise of the Bank rate will help the bankers. If the bankers succeed in breaking even as a result of the Bank rate going up, they will be very pleased indeed.
  What else has gone up as well as the Bank rate? Pensions and allowances have gone up. That did not raise much enthusiasm on the other side of the Committee yesterday. I was sorry, because our constituents all over the country are very pleased about this. At the last Election we were very modest in the promises we made—[Laughter.]—about pensions. Perhaps I should quote it to hon. Gentlemen opposite. This was in our Manifesto, and this is what I included in mine:
  "We shall review the position of pensions, including war pensions, and see that the hardest needs are met first."
  I should like to thank my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer

  1417
  for more than redeeming the modest hopes which we put forward. That is the right kind of Conservative way.
  My right hon. Friend is in the process of increasing family allowances. That is not popular with everyone. Some of the older people say, "I never had any family allowances on which to bring up my children," but when they think again most of them will realise that it is a good thing.
  Industrial injury pensions, war pensions, National Assistance rates and the pensions of many retired public servants, teachers, policemen and others, some of whom have been to us on deputations from time to time, and who have made such a very strong case, are all to be increased. I think we are all glad that something is to be done for them.
  Of course, all these things are being done because the money has been found from other sources. It is easy enough for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South, and other hon. Gentleman opposite to condemn the reduction of the food subsidies and the increased petrol tax. That is where the money has come from to pay increased pensions to those people who need the money very badly. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite vote against the reduction of the food subsidies, they will in effect be voting against the pension increases which have been given.
  I want to speak now of the Excess Profits Levy. In my opinion, it is bound to be economically harmful although it may be politically necessary. I should like to reserve what I have to say about it in detail for the Finance Bill, but it is a severe impost on industry, coming on top of everything else, and it will tend to restrict capital formation. None the less, this was promised and forecast in the Conservative Party's Election Manifesto, and here it is. I do not envy the Chancellor of the Exchequer in having had to draw it up and I do not suppose he liked it either.
  The petrol tax is to go up too. We are all sorry about that rise because it means an increase in transport costs. But we must not forget that the loss of Abadan has greatly increased the dollar content in the oil that we have to buy, so when we pay more for our petrol let us remember Abadan and the right hon.
  1418
  Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), the ex-Foreign Secretary, to whom so much of this is due.
  What has gone down? The food subsidies have gone down. That is a very good thing; I never liked them. I do not mind confessing it now—it is a long time ago and I do not think any harm will be done in saying this—that when they were introduced I was an insignificant member of the then Government. I opposed the idea, for I thought it was wrong at the time and I did not see how we could get out of it in the future. However, wiser people than I thought it was right, and it was done.
  It was effective for a long time in many ways, but the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, exposed to us very fully today how ineffective these subsidies are in many directions, how they give money to people who do not need it, and, in addition, how they obscure the true position. The party opposite reduced the ceiling of the subsidies, and Sir Stafford Cripps would have reduced them more if he had been allowed to by his party.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite ought to bear in mind the very serious point that if the defences of the pound broke down and we had a serious situation in regard to sterling, the rise in the price of food would be far, far higher than anything done by the reduction in the amount of the subsidies. Reducing the food subsidies is one of the ways of showing people overseas that we are determined to put our house in order.
  Mr. I. O. Thomas: If it is correct to say now, as the right hon. Gentleman is doing, that the reduction of the food subsidies is the right policy, can he explain the categorical statement of Lord Woolton at the time of the Election that it was not the intention of the Conservatives to reduce the food subsidies?
  Mr. Assheton: I can tell the hon. Member this. When I was fighting the last Election in my constituency, this sort of question naturally came up. What was the sort of suggestion that came from our political opponents? This is what they said: "You intend to reduce the subsidies, and take the money away from the poor and give it to the rich." That was the gravaman of the charge. Hon. Members opposite are deeply disappointed to see that what has been taken

  1419
  away in the food subsidies has not been handed to the rich but is being used to increase pensions and decrease taxes.
  But something else has gone down—Income Tax. Increased personal allowances and earned income allowances will provide greater incentive to work, and enable people to work overtime without reaching that level of taxation which makes overtime rather unattractive. I think it is a great pity that the Chancellor spread this incentive over too narrow a field, and I hope that by the time the next Budget comes he will be able to increase its scope. There is no monetary incentive for the higher-paid earners in industry and commerce.
  There is very little incentive left for those very important people, the work providers. It is a good thing to give an incentive to the workers; it is also good to give an incentive to the work providers. It has not been very encouraging in recent years to be a work provider. It is still pretty discouraging, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bear them in mind another year. Meanwhile, the work providers have to work harder and provide work for another year before they can get any recognition from him.
  I am glad about the pre-war car tax being adjusted. That was sensible. The tax relief on investment incomes below£250 is almost the only indication the Chancellor has given that he has any sympathy for unearned income, which is the result of saving and self-denial in the past. I hope that the Chancellor will remember the importance of unearned income.
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, South, has criticised the Douglas scheme and the way in which the Government intend to apply it. We want to be entirely fair. In Lancashire, where this is very important, it will be a help to the export trade. Lancashire is very worried about what is happening in regard to Australia. It is bound to give anxiety, as it has also done in places like Coventry. It is not for us to offer advice to the Australian Government, but if they were able to see their way to deal with contracts that already exist in the same way as the Chancellor proposes, there would be a measure of satisfaction every-
  1420
  where in this country, especially in Lancashire, which is worried about its export trade and its employment.
  We have to get costs down in this country. That is one of the most important things we have to do. Unless we can do so, I am none too sure that the export programme, upon which so much of the Chancellor's calculations are based, will be realised. How are we to get them down? I should like to hope that increases in earnings will be the result, not of higher rates of wages, but of more, harder and better work, and that increases of profits will come with small profit margins and not larger ones.
  I do not know whether this is a fair criticism because I know how difficult the matter is for the Chancellor, but I still feel that the Budget is balanced on far too high a level. I think he has to try hard to cut expenditure still more. There must be more retrenchment. It may mean giving up things to which we attach great importance but when we have to cut down we sometimes find that we have to cut on those things. It is vital to have some taxable reserve in the country.
  I was glad that the Chancellor did not talk too much about economics; that was a great comfort. But he talked a little about the Budget surplus. I was glad that he did not over-stress the importance of having a Budget surplus. Views about a Budget surplus have been changing. I never liked a Budget surplus, but with a Socialist Government there were certain reasons for having one. If there is a Government in which the country and the world have confidence, the reason for a Budget surplus is very much less.
  If the Chancellor looks at the surplus now, he may find that it is substantial, but it would not need to have been anything like so large if there were not this figure for local government borrowing—£360 million—below the line. I hope that the Chancellor will consider carefully the question of when he can allow a large part of local government borrowing to be done in the market, as it used to be, instead of being found by the Government. That would be a real advantage to him.
  I regret that it has been found necessary to meet this crisis at the expense of industrial equipment and formation of

  1421
  capital, and by the depletion of stocks. I regret—and I hope that the Chancellor agrees with me—that the incentive to invent in industry or engage in commerce has been reduced. There is really no incentive in this Budget to the work-provider; in fact, his incentive has been lessened. The important question we have to try to answer is, will these measures be enough? Are they sufficient? I hope so, but they will be sufficient only if we work hard and loosen up our economy a great deal further, if we cut down Government expenditure more, encourage enterprise and the formation of capital.
  I come now to a very important issue, the future of our currency. Sound money is absolutely essential to a great trading country. We cannot feed more than half the 50 million people of these islands. The rest of us live by trade and commerce. If we are to trade and have commerce, we must have honest money. Honest money means money which is convertible into other currencies, and until we can have a convertible currency our money will not be honest.
  It is a sad thought that all these years after the end of the war it is still illegal to bring Bank of England notes into this country from abroad. It is a shocking commentary on what is written on those notes. We cannot survive without an honest currency. Therefore, we were all glad to hear, after the Chancellor's meeting with the Commonwealth Finance Ministers, that it was his intention to make the£convertible as soon as possible.
  The point is, how soon can it be done? There are always people who say: "This is not the time. We must build up our reserves more. This is not the opportunity." Believe me, there may come a much worse time. Suppose the drain on our gold and dollar reserves goes on. Suppose we were to get to a point, towards autumn or Christmas, where they are nearly all gone? What shall we have to do then? We shall have to let the currency run free, or to devalue it, without having a reserve at all.
  If we are able to let the currency run free then, why should we not do so when we have a substantial reserve of dollars amounting to£500 million or£600 million which can be used to iron out fluctuations in the market and deal with
  1422
  the speculators and the sharks whom the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, so rightly talked about? Those foreign speculators in currency naturally seek to take advantage of the position in which this country is, and at the present time they have a fairly easy game.
  If the Chancellor found it possible to free the currency, the greatest need for more gold and dollar reserves would vanish, and he would then have to decide at what point to attach the currency to gold once more. Perhaps we may be able to follow the Canadian example, and start by allowing permitted transactions to be fixed by the ordinary laws of supply and demand.
  This is a problem about which the Chancellor must be thinking a great deal. I hope he will be bold. I know that he is an admirer of Sir Robert Peel. A little over 100 years ago, Sir Robert Peel took some very bold financial action in this House which was thoroughly justified by the circumstances and made a great change in the whole climate of opinion, from which this country benefited for a long time.
  Until the Chancellor is able to make the currency convertible, will he be able to do many of the things we said in our Election Manifesto that we wanted to do? Will he be able to let the private buyers buy? Will he be able to re-open the Liverpool Cotton Exchange in the full sense in which it operated previously? All those things are so dependent upon our having a free and convertible currency.
  I think there is great hope for us now. There is more hope than we have had in this country for many years, and there is especially more hope for the hardworking and capable people who suffered so much under the Socialist Government. If there was one section of the community which benefited under the Socialist Government, it was the less hard-working and the less capable element of all classes in the community. I am sure the Chancellor intends to correct that.
  There is a great deal we can all do to help and we can ask ourselves what we can do. Can any of us, I ask, give a little better value for what we are paid? That applies to everybody. If we could all succeed in doing that, it would solve quite a number of our difficulties.

  1423
  The greatest hope of all for the future lies in the Commonwealth. Without the coming together of the Commonwealth, nothing can be achieved. The Chancellor had a meeting with the Finance Ministers some months ago. Now, when troubles occur in a family, the family often get together again even if sometimes they have got a little apart from each other. It is just the same in a great family of nations like ours, and I hope that out of that meeting of the Commonwealth Finance Ministers something important will grow.
  I should like to see much more permanent machinery brought into existence. What happens now? If all these Finance Ministers are summoned from the ends of the earth, it raises a lot of interest and excitement in the world. It would be rather awkward to have such a meeting if there were a desire to make some alterations in currency. That is illustrated by what happened when the currency was altered by Sir Stafford Cripps—there was great complaint that there was not sufficient notice or consultation.
  If we had permanently in session a body representing the Commonwealth, that difficulty would not arise. I know that certain members of the Commonwealth may be hesitant to adopt such a plan, but they could be brought to do so gradually, perhaps, if they realised that it would give them a share in influencing the activities of the central bank of the Commonwealth.
  Make no mistake, when we nationalised the Bank of England, the merits of which action I do not want to argue now, we turned it into the Bank of England, because it then came under the Parliaments of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That idea is not an agreeable one to our partners in the Commonwealth because Governments are apt to be swayed by party political motives and there is much more confidence in an organisation which is independent.
  It is not always easy for others to see that the Bank of England is still the bank of the whole Commonwealth, but that is what it is. If we could only get some system by which the Bank of England was responsive to all the Governments of the Empire and Commonwealth, through some joint council such as I have suggested, we should make a tremendous
  1424
  advance and perhaps one day reach a stage when through the entire vast Commonwealth there would be one Queen's currency.
  5.15 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: I want to begin by congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the clarity of his Budget statement, the lucidity of his explanation and, as one who suffers from an overflow of emotion, upon the unemotional way in which he spoke. Having congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I should now like to sympathise with the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell). I do not think I have ever seen a strong economist making a more gallant struggle to find means of criticising a Budget which he himself—
  Mr. Percy Simmer rose—
  Mr. Davies: It may be that the hon. Gentleman will be making a much stronger criticism, but I expect the stronger criticisms to come from behind and not from below the Gangway.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: They will not come from the Liberal benches.
  Mr. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman has accepted the need for a very heavy armament programme. The right hon. Gentleman has also accepted that there is a new and real period of crisis upon us, which is, to use his own words, dangerous.
  Having made those two admissions: that one has to meet the heavy armament programme and that one has also to stop the outflow of gold and other reserves—in other words to stop the hemorrhage of our life-blood—what would the right hon. Gentleman have done if he had been at that Box instead of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? It seems to me that his Budget would have been much of a muchness.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has asked me a question. Of course he will not expect me to make a Budget statement impromptu, but I want to ask him this question: does he really disagree with the Chancellor that the entire Budget is irrelevant to the external situation? Because the Chancellor made that perfectly plain.
  Mr. Davies: It is a very relevant one taken in conjunction with the other steps which the Chancellor and his colleagues have already taken. Before coming to the Budget at all, there has been a cut in imports now amounting to£600 million. That is a policy one would not adopt in normal times because it is a bad thing to do when things are normal. But things are not normal. We are dealing with abnormal times and with an abnormal situation.
  The right thing for normal times is to encourage imports as long as one can pay for them in the normal way with exports. However, the position today is such that we cannot do so and, therefore, there has been a drain upon both our gold and other reserves. Very rightly, the Chancellor says there is to be a cut—which he has now increased—outside the Budget to the extent of£600 million. That is step number one.
  The other one, which again is outside the Budget, is to make it more difficult for investment, more difficult for companies and private persons to get money with which to purchase goods from abroad. So the Chancellor allows the Bank rate to go up to 4 per cent. Is not that also a means of dealing with this situation outside the Budget itself—making money more difficult to get, and therefore more difficult for it to be spent upon either imported or other goods?
  Those two steps in themselves have gone quite a long way. Then comes the Budget. I only wish this Budget had been introduced earlier. I only wish it had been introduced when the Government took office. I should even have preferred it to have been introduced by the right hon. Member for Leeds, South before the General Election, as I asked that it should be. In the meantime, there has been a continuous drain upon us until the steps were taken by the right hon. Gentleman of imposing these cuts and increasing the Bank rate. This continuous drain has been going on, despite that, in January and February.
  Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer really say that his Budget is irrelevant to the external situation? He ended his speech by saying that it will probably mean a rise in wages and, therefore, that there will be more inflationary pressure, and he is taking, in compulsory savings over and above his expenditure, the sum
  1426
  of£520 million. That is one of the boldest things that has been done, with the exception, possibly, of the Budget of, I think, 1948, when the sum was greater.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The right hon. and learned Gentleman would agree, I think, that that larger surplus could, and would, have been obtained without any of the changes in the Budget produced by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Davies: But the Chancellor makes provision for holding back from the spending public£520 million over and above expenditure. Would the right hon. Member for Leeds, South, have added to it? Personally, I would have done so.
  I do not know whether at present the steps that have been taken by the Chancellor are drastic enough to deal with the very dangerous situation that confronts us. The right hon. Member for Leeds, South, said that the position was dangerous. We now know that should this flowing out of reserves from the country continue at the rate of the last few months, in a few more months there will be nothing left in our storehouse, either of gold or of any reserves whatever.
  How are we, then, to meet the situation? No such situation confronts any other country similar to ours, a country which depends so much upon foreign trade for its food for three people out of every five and for an immense quantity of its raw materials. If we run out of reserves, what is to be the position? I hear talk about unemployment rising. What is that compared with the unemployment which there would be in a few months' time unless this situation is met?
  And so it is that on those matters I think the Chancellor has taken the right steps. I hope sincerely that they are sufficient. If not, he will have to come to the House and ask for more steps to be taken, even more drastic, in order to save us from the peril that confronts us.
  Now I turn to other matters; first, the increase in pensions and in family allowances. I have always felt that in order to play fairly with the pensioner, his pension, whether it be an old age pension, one for war injuries or whatever it may be, ought to be related to the cost of living. That would be the fair thing to

  1427
  do, because one has said to those people at the time the pension was granted, "We are giving you a certain sum which will enable you to buy a certain standard of life." Undoubtedly, with the fall in the value of the£, it does not do that, and while I congratulate the Chancellor upon what he has done, my own view is that it is not enough to meet—
  Mr. Shurmer: Not enough.
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Member says that the Government have not done enough.
  Mr. Shurmer: They have not done anything.
  Mr. Davies: What has the hon. Member's party done? I remember—the hon. Member was not in the House in those days—when his party were opposed tooth and nail to family allowances. The whole of the trade union movement was against them. They were a real necessity in order to meet the extra claims of a family. I therefore congratulate the Chancellor on having increased them.
  I should have liked him to have gone further. I still do not see why there should be no grant in respect of the first child. I should have preferred, instead of 8s. for every child after the first, to have seen it made a little less—say 7s.—and for the grant to have been made from the first child onwards. However, these are matters we can deal with again when we come to the Comittee stage of the Finance Bill.
  Mr. Shurmer: Before he leaves the question of children's allowances, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say why my party were opposed to them? Did not the issue arise during a time of unemployment, when the allowances might have been used to reduce wages?
  Mr. Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Member for reminding me of that. I will deal with it when I come to food subsidies.
  I turn now for a moment to the food subsidies. I have never liked them. I never liked them when they were introduced into the House—although one realised the need for them at that time—by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Kingsley Wood. But at that moment we were a beleaguered nation. Our ships
  1428
  were being sunk. The amount of food that was coming in could not be increased. We were strictly rationed. We could not at that moment adjust wages to meet the increased cost of living, and that was why the food subsidies were introduced, as a temporary measure, by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer to meet that situation.
  One hoped at that time that the subsidies would come to an end with the end of the war, but they have been continued since, and continued by a Government that should have said that the right way to deal with people is to give them enough to enable them to pay for themselves, and to increase wages so that the people could get a fair living and spend the money as they wanted, instead of taking them by the hand and saying, "Come and spend it in this way and we will help you, out of taxation, to buy what you need."
  There was a time when employers did that kind of thing. They paid the remuneration that was due to an employee partly in money and partly in kind. Very rightly, this House condemned that and made it a criminal offence by passing the Truck Acts. I think that it is wrong in principle today. The right thing to do, if wages are not enough to meet the rising cost of living, is to ask for more wages and to get fair wages that will meet it.
  What has happened? The previous Chancellor of the Exchequer made an appeal to the trade unions that there should not be a rise in wages. It was putting a tremendous strain upon the unions to ask them to do that. Moreover, it was a strain they were not able to carry. We all know that wages have gone up, and we all know that costs have gone up.
  Then what happened? When the cost of living and the cost of food were going up and the subsidy figure, as the Chancellor reminded the Committee yesterday, in order to keep the cost of living at a fair level, was rising to the extent that out of taxation we should have had to pay more than£520 million, Sir Stafford Cripps said, "I cannot do it.£400 million is my limit."
  This was a move in the right direction. The right thing is to let people have their fair and proper wages and let them spend their money in the way they desire, and not in the way that anybody else thinks they ought to spend it.

  1429
  I come now to one of the taxes which I, like the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton), criticised: that is, the Excess Profits Levy. It reminds me of a tax which was introduced by Mr. Neville Chamberlain in his last year as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Before the Finance Bill could be introduced, he had ceased to be Chancellor of the Exchequer and had become Prime Minister, but he continued in his folly and introduced the tax that he had in his Budget into his Finance Bill also. He gave it the name, which was very attractive and which attracted right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House, of the National Defence Contribution. Just like the Chancellor he standardised profits and said that profits for three years had to be averaged and anything over and above that he would tax.
  At that time there were two of us who took the strongest objection to that tax, and said so. I was one of them, but a far more effective critic—I would commend this to the Chancellor of the Exchequer—a far better critic of the whole system the Chancellor is now re-introducing was the present Prime Minister. I am not going into detail, but I should like to refer the right hon. Gentleman to that criticism. He will find it in sonorous language, true Churchillian sentences, good logic. So deadly was it that the then Prime Minister withdrew that tax on that afternoon after the speech had been made, on 1st June, 1937—in Vol. 234 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, beginning at c. 882. I leave the matter at that for the moment, but the objections we made then are still sound.
  There can be only one reason for maintaining this tax—that the situation at home is so absolutely abnormal that this is the only way in which one can deal with it. I am not sure that that is the situation today. The Chancellor admits that there has to be more production; there has got to be more encouragement to work. Therefore, he said, "I will relieve people who do more, work longer, work better, from the penalty of having to pay back a large part of what they earn in taxation." That will encourage people; that is the incentive.
  The right hon. Gentleman is giving the incentive to the employee, but penalising the good manager. Where is the sense of that? The more profit a man is making, unless he has a monopoly against
  1430
  his competitors, surely the more effective is his management, the more he is producing and the country benefiting. Why, therefore, single him out for punishment of this kind?
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I respect the views of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but I am sure he understands that in framing the new levy full account has been taken of the defects of the National Defence Contribution and also of the Excess Profits Tax, and I hope that we shall be able to benefit by that.
  Mr. Davies: I fully realise that, but it is still a penalty on increased production. One can deal with that when we come to the Committee stage of the Finance Bill.
  These are abnormal times, and what we are anxious to see is that this year's Budget and the method of handling it will put an end to this series of crises from which we have suffered from 1945 onwards, year after year. If it is necessary to do something more drastic to put an end to that so that we can get back to normality, the Chancellor, if he does it, will have earned the gratitude of the whole country and of the sterling area as a whole.
  5.34 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Johnson: I hope I may ask the Committee for the indulgence which by kindly tradition is usually given to those who are privileged to address the House for the first time. As the lack of dollars appears to be one of the main reasons for our economic difficulties and for the stringent measures my right hon. Friend has been forced to take in order to deal with them, I hope I shall not find it difficult to observe the usual custom of not saying anything unduly controversial in a maiden speech if I address myself mainly to this question of trying to earn more dollars.
  To my simple mind, the best way to get something is to earn more, and I shall confine myself particularly to the question of earning dollars through trade with Canada. If I may excuse myself for doing that, it is on the grounds that I lived in Canada for several years and am constantly getting letters from Canadian friends expressing great concern at the falling off of their exports to us and also of their fear of being driven under the economic domination of the United States.

  1431
  I hope, Mr. Bowles, you will not find I am straying too far from the subject of the speech of my right hon. Friend if I speak almost entirely of Canada. It is perhaps a happy coincidence that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Selkirk (Commander Donaldson) is, I believe, seeking to catch your eye later in the debate. It is a coincidence because we both lived for many years in the same Province of Canada, British Columbia.
  As the Committee know, my right hon. Friend has found it necessary to attempt to check the drain on our gold and dollars by drastic restrictions of our imports. I think he is following the example of his predecessors, and it would ill-become me to try to criticise the inevitable, even if one of our best friends, Canada, has been badly hurt in the process.
  Canadians feel that we are making a mistake in trying to maintain our trade with Canada at too low a level. They think we are concentrating too much on saving and doing too little about earning more. They feel also that we are perhaps unduly concerned in making the sterling area self-supporting, while leaving Canada out in the cold. They think we are trying to produce goods, artificially and on a non-economic basis, in the sterling area which they can already supply, and they feel it would be much more sensible if we concentrated more on producing in the sterling area those things for which it is best suited and selling them in turn to Canada for dollars and using those dollars to buy Canadian products which they want to sell.
  Perhaps I might illustrate my meaning by referring to a project which I believe is now under review, that of producing pig products and beef in British Honduras. British Honduras also happens to produce, and produce very well, bananas, and Canadians would be more than pleased to buy greatly increased quantities of bananas from British Honduras. If that were done, dollars would be earned and could be used to buy Canadian beef. I do not think anyone would seriously suggest that Canada is not a very much better country to raise beef cattle than anywhere in the tropics. I could, of course, mention many other commodities produced in the sterling area which Canada would very gladly buy.
  1432
  The Committee, of course, are fully aware that Canada wants us to do business with them and they want to buy our goods. But we are equally aware that the Canadian market is perhaps one of the most highly competitive in the world. The way to get that market is to go out there and produce the sort of things Canadians want, even if that means taking risks. I am told by Canadian friends, and I should like to emphasise the point, that there is an immense demand in Canada today for, components of goods in common use in that country which they would gladly buy if we would make them. I think we ought to take the further risk of maintaining stocks so as to ensure quick delivery and of maintaining a supply of spare parts on the other side of the Atlantic.
  I have in my own mind some doubt as to the efforts our businessmen are making to break into the Canadian market. It is a fact that between the years 1947 and 1951 the Treasury allowed an expenditure of£10 million for business travel to the United States and during the same period only allowed, or rather only£4,100,000 was taken, for business travel in Canada; a sum equal to the amount allowed for what is called personal travel in the United States of America. I would suggest that that item of dollar expenditure might well bear investigation.
  The fact is that, although we spent less than half as much to try to get Canadian business, in those five 'years we did export£456 million worth of goods to Canada and only£420 million worth to the United States. It seems to me that if we had spent in business travel in Canada that extra amount of money used for personal travel in the United States, there would have been a reasonable chance of getting more business and selling more exports, because Canada is today the biggest importer of manufactured products in the world.
  We all know that businessmen need some inducement other than exhortation to try to break into this difficult market. As we on this side of the Committee, at any rate, are constantly preaching the virtues of a spirit of adventure and competitive enterprise and believe they should reap their just reward. I would appeal to my right hon. Friend to see if he can devise some method of giving increased

  1433
  incentives to our manufacturers to get into the Canadian market. Although I suppose this would not really come under his Department, perhaps some preferential treatment in the allocation of raw materials might be made for Anglo-Canadian trade. Or perhaps there might be even a system whereby firms which are successful in earning dollars might be allowed to retain a small proportion of those dollars to use at their own discretion.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton) did refer to the British Commonwealth. In these days I often hear reference made to increased trade with the British Commonwealth and then, in the same breath, we are told that we must take the lead in this country in the expansion of the sterling area. But those are not precisely similar things. I believe, whatever the attractions of the sterling area, that we should be making a great mistake if we shut ourselves off from the huge and ever growing markets of Canada which is, after all, the largest and, at any rate potentially, the richest member of the British Commonwealth of Nations. I believe that if we do shut ourselves off in such a way, we shall not only dissipate that immense fund of goodwill which still—I sometimes think rather surprisingly—exists towards us, but we shall drive Canada into the arms of the United States.
  It is perhaps quite significant that Canada is today rapidly becoming a country inhabited by people of non-British origin and, although in 1926 the British share of foreign investment in Canada came to 45 per cent., today it is only 16 per cent.; whereas that of the United States is 80 per cent. I believe it is possible to maintain trade with Canada on a much higher level and that that would be a step of inestimable value to both countries. It would at the same time preserve the solidarity of the British Commonwealth on whose strength the peace and prosperity of the world so largely depends.
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. George Benson: It falls to me to undertake the very pleasant duty of congratulating the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) upon a very excellent maiden speech. I have spoken on more Budgets than I like to
  1434
  remember, but even now I envy the ease and confidence with which he addressed the Committee. I feel sure that we shall hear him again, and I hope frequently.
  I now turn to a more aggressive topic. I generally agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), but I do not think I have heard a speech of his with which I more completely disagreed than the one to which we listened today. He started by congratulating the Chancellor upon his clarity. All I can say is that as the Chancellor proceeded with his speech yesterday I got more and more muddled. And, when I tried to marry his speech with the speech he made on 29th January, I got more muddled still. I found much comfort indeed from hearing my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) say that he could not understand it either.
  No, I would not say that the Chancellor was particularly clear in his explanation of the external situation and what he intended to do about it. Nor would I agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery when he said that this was a drastic Budget. It is not. It has left the global burden on the country unchanged to all effect. The only result of this Budget has been to shuffle the burden round from those shoulders which can afford to bear it to those that cannot.
  I see that the right hon. Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton) is not in his place. I am sorry, because one phrase he used I was unable to understand. He referred to "work providers." I am not clear what work providers are. My mind went back to an occasion many years ago when my mother told me that I produced more work than 10 ordinary children. But I never gathered from the tone of her voice that I required either reward or incentive for that. This idea that there are some people who are work providers was a good mid-Victorian idea, but to have it trotted out in the House in 1952 really makes one wonder whether some of one's colleagues have moved very much during this century.
  To me the most interesting thing about the Budget speech, and the Budget itself, was the contrast it revealed between the Tory Party in opposition and the Tory Party in office. Indeed, the antithesis was as great between the election pledges of

  1435
  the Tory Party and their performance. The Tories have been in opposition for the last seven Budgets, I believe: at least for the last six or seven years. In the Budget debates we have had one theme hammered almost ad nauseam; that is that the financial policy of the Labour Government was one of waste, extravagance and inefficiency.
  That has been their constant theme, and I can see some hon. Members facing me now who have said so. We have had a picture painted of hordes of civil servants eating up the substance of the country like locusts. In the last Budget speech the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), suggested, on this point of civil servants, that we could easily lop off an expenditure of£50 million a year.
  On 29th January, when the Chancellor made his statement on the economic situation, he said that he had cut out waste. That was a proud boast. He claimed that he had already reduced civil expenditure by an amount which represented 1½per cent. of our gross national income. [Interruption.] If I am challenged on that statement, I would point out that it can be found in HANSARD. The Chancellor said:
  "It means a fall in the proportion of the country's gross national product which the Government take for their civil expenditure from about 15 per cent, to about 13½per cent."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th January, 1952; Vol. 495, c. 52.]
  That is a drop amounting to 1½per cent. of the gross national product. When the Chancellor said that, I had, for the moment, a glimpse of him dressed in the skin of the Nemean lion—Hercules cleansing the Augean stables.
  Let us examine what this has meant. Let us examine the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot that we could lop off£50 million by getting rid of unnecessary civil servants. What has the Chancellor done? He hoped to save, not£50 million, but£5 million, with the possibility of some unspecified but obviously much smaller saving later.
  But how has this been done? It has not been done by eliminating waste but by a definite instruction to the Departments that they must make a percentage cut in their employees. That percentage
  1436
  cut falls upon a Department whether it is over-staffed or under-staffed—and there are some Departments which are understaffed. That is not preventing waste. The effect of that in a large number of cases will be merely to introduce inefficiency. At any rate, where is the£50 million which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot talked about?
  How has this 1½per cent. of the gross national income been saved? In addition to this claim to be cutting out waste, which would have been much more effective if we had been given some evidence of it, the Chancellor had to admit that he had had to reduce, or to slow up, many useful services. We find from the Civil Vote on Account that there are three items which certainly do not look like cutting out waste. 'There is£55 million on the Ministry of Food Vote, there is a reduction in strategic reserves of£63 million, and there is a reduction in the Ministry of Food reserves of£59 million, a total of£177 million. How far that in any way includes the£150 million cut off food subsidies, I do not know.
  I cannot marry these figures, and we shall not be able to do that until we get the Civil Estimates, but the major cuts which the Government have succeeded in achieving have been by slowing up or cutting out necessary and useful services and by these cuts in strategic reserves or food subsidies. I thought that I would look back to see what happened under the wasteful, inefficient and extravagant Labour Governments.
  I examined what had happened in the last four years for which we have available figures—1947–48 to 1950–51. I found that our expenditure on Civil Estimates in those four years had decreased as a proportion of the gross national income by between 5 per cent. and 6 per cent. In other words, this decrease of 1½per cent. as a proportion of the gross national income in a year is not startling. It is not something that the Tory Party have done for the first time. We have carried that sort of thing in our stride.
  We did not do it by cutting food subsidies or by slowing down useful services. Useful services were being developed then and, in addition, during those four years we increased the cost of the social services by£400 million a year.
  Squadron Leader A. E. Cooper: Does the hon. Gentleman include in his progressive increases in the social services the ld. increase in the cost of school meals, the stopping of all school building, and the decrease in housing allocations from 200,000 to 175,000?
  Mr. Benson: I am dealing with the actual cost of the social services during those four years.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: It is what one gets for the money that counts.
  Mr. Benson: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has merely raised a red herring. He has not attempted to answer my argument. The real reason the Tory Party, if they wanted drastically to reduce expenditure on civil account, have had to cut food subsidies and to run down the reserves and, in the Chancellor's own words, to postpone many useful services, is that there was no waste to be cut out and that, despite all the charges that hon. Gentlemen opposite have brought against the Labour Government in the last six years, that Government ran the business of this country efficiently, effectively and economically.
  I should like to switch to an entirely different subject and to marry up two entirely different taxes. I wish to deal with the cut in Income Tax and the rise in the petrol duty. That may seem to be an odd marriage. I am doing it not because I particularly want to, but because of something which happened in the Budget debate of 1950. Sir Stafford Cripps increased the petrol duty in that year, and at the same time decreased the rate of tax on lower incomes, exactly as the Chancellor did yesterday. It so happened that the first speech of criticism of Sir Stafford Cripps's Budget was made by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and what did he say about these two taxes? He said:
  "…it may well be that the benefit of the concession given under the Income Tax proposals will be taken away by the increased fares which the Londoner will have to pay in travelling and particularly does that apply to those living in the suburban areas. So this is another example of that wonderful system of transfer from one pocket to another, very often in the same pair of trousers, which is a feature of our national economy."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 19th April, 1950; Vol. 474, c. 155.]
  That is what the Chancellor said of Sir Stafford Cripps, but it is exactly what he himself has done.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The hon. Gentleman must compare like with like. In the 1950 Budget, the amount collected in petrol duty, if I remember rightly, was of the order of£60 to£70 million, and the Income Tax remissions were of the same order. The amount collected in petrol duty in this Budget is£60 million, and the amount of Income Tax remissions is£180 million, which is a very different thing.
  Mr. Benson: The point which the Chancellor was making was that it would be rather ridiculous to raise the cost of living on the one hand and reduce taxation on the other, and he chose those two particular taxes—Income Tax and petrol duty—but he had completely forgotten what he himself said in 1950. Indeed, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite does not like that, I would remind him that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South, put 4½d. on petrol last year, and the present Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Crookshank), during the progress of the Finance Bill through Committee, spent 4½columns of HANSARD in denouncing this increase as having come after an increase the previous year. This is the third increase which we have had running. Right hon. and hon. Gentleman opposite really should take some trouble to read their own speeches of 12 months ago. It is said that consistency is the bugbear of little minds; it certainly never troubled the Tory Party.
  There is one further point I should like to make. I said at the beginning that this was a Budget that shifted taxation from the shoulders of those who could bear it to the shoulders of those who could not, and there were certain indications of disagreement—at least, I thought so—on the other side of the Chamber. I do not want to harp on the effect of the Income Tax remissions, which are certainly greater in their higher ranges than in the lower ranges, but I do want to refer to the change in Profits Tax and Excess Profits Tax.
  There has been a reduction of the rate at which profits are taxed; particularly profits which are set aside for distribution. It is a reduction of 7½per cent. The Excess Profits Levy falls upon excess profits, whether they are to be put to reserve or not. What this reduction in

  1439
  the Profits Tax means is that, out of the profits made on the basic level, there is a remission of 7½per cent. on those profits which are declared as dividends; in other words, it enables dividends to be increased by 7½per cent. at the cost of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] It is all very well to say "Nonsense," but there are the facts, and anybody with a knowledge of simple arithmetic can work it out for himself. This Budget not only reduces the taxation on profits paid out, but it gives a definite and deliberate incentive that those profits should be paid out.
  6.5 p.m.
  Professor Sir Douglas Savory: I was in the Gallery of the old House of Commons in March, 1900, during the South African War, when Sir Michael Hicks Beach opened his Budget, and, with bated breath, announced that, owing to the war, public expenditure had reached the colossal sum of£154 million, of which about£90 million was for the Army and Navy. With extreme reluctance and prolonged hesitation, he said that he was obliged to come to the conclusion that Income Tax would have to be raised from 8d. to 1s. in the£.
  Now, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer is confronted with a Budget expenditure for the year 1952–53 amounting to£4,240 million. Out of this large sum, defence expenditure alone, after allowing for£85 million of economic aid from the United States, is estimated at£1,377 million, to which must be added£45 million for Civil Defence, giving a grand total of£1,422 million.
  At the time of the General Election, we were spending£700 million a year more than we were earning, and our gross trade deficit in 1951 was£1,207.6 million. The gold and dollar deficit of the sterling area amounted to£114 million in October, 1951. For the two months of November and December, it was£158 million. In addition, we had to pay out£62 million on the 31st December as a first annual instalment of the principal and interest on the American and Canadian loans. The gold and dollar deficit in the fourth quarter was£355 million, and the deficit for the whole year. 1951, was£516 million.
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  I want to point out that the present crisis is far worse than the crisis of 1949, because, while in 1949 we had an overall balance of£21 million, we now have an overall deficit at the rate of over£600 million. We no longer have the American and Canadian loans; we no longer have Marshall Aid to replenish the gold and dollar reserves. The rate of the drain on the gold and dollar reserves in the last quarter of 1951 was over three times the rate at which the reserves were falling in the quarter before devaluation.
  I am speaking of the devaluation period of 1949, and, in October, 1949, the reserves would have lasted 18 months at the rate of drain prevailing then. At the present rate, they will be down to the 1949 devaluation level by April, and our full reserves will be entirely exhausted by the end of September.
  Professor Lionel Robbins, perhaps the greatest living economist, in his memorial lecture to Lord Stamp last December, said:
  "Stop the inflation. Stop it at all costs. That is the paramount thing of the moment in the economic sphere. If we meet it, we still have a future of high promise. If we do not, then I fear that our days are numbered, certainly as a great Power, perhaps even as a stable society."
  It is surely absolutely essential that the Chancellor should give the world confidence that the speculative flight from sterling will at last be checked and reversed. Do not let us forget—and up to the present nobody has made this very important point—that£4,000 million are held abroad and many of the holders of these pounds could sell them immediately if confidence in sterling were not restored. As I heard over and over again when I was in America during the Recess, they could easily buy a pound for two dollars. In fact, the over-supply of sterling is one of the principal causes of the gold drain.
  A distinguished group of Cambridge show that it is essential that consumption should be cut by£100 million. The recent blow from Australia to our export trade shows that even this calculation has been seriously under-estimated. Today's Budget will be regarded as a test whether Great Britain is determined or not to live within her income. By the impression that the Chancellor makes abroad by his Budget, he can make or mar the recovery of this country.

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  It must not be forgotten—and here is another point to which no reference has so far been made—that during the war we were compelled to divest ourselves of the greater part of our overseas investments, and then we ran the further risk of being expropriated by others, as, in fact, has happened in Persia. I would draw the attention of hon. Members opposite to the fact that the whole of our social services threatens to come crashing down since they depend entirely on the purchasing power of the pound.
  With a population of 50 million, as we have today, we are faced with the fact that we have to rely on our current production in order to make and sell what foreigners will buy in order to pay for at least half our food and the majority of the raw materials for our industry. But let me repeat—and I feel very strongly on this matter—that our fundamental problem is the value of sterling, and sterling can only be strong when the world believes that it is a good currency to hold. This confidence must impose limitations on the public expenditure of Great Britain, and must compel the Government to keep at least a margin of taxable capacity in this country.
  In the present circumstances, I feel that party recrimination—such as we have heard in too many speeches tonight—is altogether out of place.
  Mr. Norman Smith: What about the last Parliament?
  Sir D. Savory: I did not indulge in it.
  We must appeal to the determination and the discipline which are still at the core of the British people. We must economists has worked out figures to make our decisions without fear or favour. We must do our utmost to provide what is really the only correct solution, and that is the maintenance of sterling. There is a great difference between 1952 and both 1918 and 1945. I cannot help feeling that this time the skies look blacker than ever. There is very little more for us to be disillusioned about. Our chief hope lies in the men and women who went through either the first or the second great war. It is they who incarnate what is best in our national heritage. They helped to forge the steel of the nation's endurance in the years of war, and they will be her inspiration in these terrible post-war days.
  This uniting idea is really creative. It draws the best from all and fights for
  1442
  the best in all. In order that we may—and we must—bring order out of chaos, we must eliminate the spirit of selfishness and the spirit of hatred. Let us try to substitute constructive action by ourselves for the destructive criticism of others. For the purpose of serving the country the aid of all is needed today.
  We cannot help feeling concerned over the spirit of division which exists on our home front. We have class against class and party against party. The forces of disunity in our national life seem to me stronger today than at almost any time in our history. Surely, we must try to bring about mutual understanding between right thinking leadership on both sides of the House. What Great Britain wants is not a promise to get something for nothing, but a chance of giving everything for something that is really great.
  We want something for which we can fight with equal intensity, not merely during the election campaigns, but throughout the whole duration of this Parliament. I am perfectly certain that the electors would welcome the simple and clear light that comes from men on both sides who are conscious of their country's destiny, and can see how she can serve her age and generation and know how to call the best out of each of us and unite us all against the false philosophy of a malignant materialism.
  6.19 p.m.
  Mr. Percy Daines: The rather prolonged rhetorical peroration of the hon. Member for Antrim. South (Sir D. Savory) reminds me of when, a couple of elections ago, I approached an elderly and timid lady with a view to getting her to vote for the Labour Party. She said she could not possibly do so because she always voted Tory as she did not believe in politics.
  I want to confine my remarks as far as I can to a narrow section of the financial policy of the Government as far as it affects house ownership and the furnishing of homes. I think it is perfectly clear, when one examines the Douglas scheme, which the Government have adopted, that the young people of this country will again find a further increase in price when they come to furnish their homes.
  I know the Chancellor has studied and has taken a profound, deep and sincere

  1443
  interest in the broader aspects of social problems. He would know, as I know, that if any couple set off to build up a home today, even with the minimum requirements of two bedrooms furnished and a lounge and a dining-room, if they get out of it at£650 to£700 they will be doing very well. One of the effects of his policy, by shifting taxation to the middle range of articles, is to increase that cost substantially.
  The Chancellor also knows that most young people are forced by necessity to go in for hire-purchase when they start a home. His policy is extremely restrictive, and I advise him when he gets in touch with branches of the Young Conservatives, as I know he will, to encourage them to discuss this subject very frankly.
  The Conservative Party profess to be very much aware of the need to encourage house ownership. I am in complete agreement with that principle. I believe it is a good thing for a man to own his own house. I believe that private possession makes for a more stable citizen. I believe also that it is sound economy, for instead of allowing the place to deteriorate because it belongs to somebody else, the house owner will do the small repairs himself and develop an art and craft of his own. Before I became a Member for Parliament, I visited thousands of homes in the course of my job, and I found that the standard of repair and upkeep was much higher in owner-occupied houses than in rented property. There is no difference between the right hon. Gentleman and his party and myself on this subject.
  Over a period, under previous administrations, we had an effective saving on the cost of house purchase by mortgage through the sympathetic operation of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act. By competition with the building societies, the Act enabled a substantial saving to be made. I should like to quote a case in point to show what happens now. A friend of mine obtained a licence to build some four months ago. The total cost of the house was in the region of£3,000. If the mortgage had been taken up then under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, the difference between the interest he paid and the interest he would have had to pay on Saturday last would have
  1444
  been 15s. per week. Already in the pursuit of a dearer money policy, the Chancellor has effectively stultified possible house ownership in this case to the degree of 15s. a week.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: Are we certain that this increased Bank rate and these charges will apply to that Act?
  Mr. Daines: I am quoting what has already happened. The rate now under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act for loans of over 15 years is 4½per cent. But the most important aspect is not the limited amount of mortgage business done under that Act. Let me say, in passing, that I wish some of my own colleagues on local municipalities had taken a more active interest in this question. I have known many cases where public officials have deliberately sabotaged the working of this Act because they did not want extra business to come into the office and give them more work. I am glad to see that an hon. Member opposite with considerable experience appears to be agreeing with me on that point.
  But I also ask the Government to realise the consequences of their financial policy in relation to house ownership in general. I do not think it is an overestimate to say that by the end of the year we shall be faced with an increase in the building society mortgage rate to 5 per cent. I do not think hon. Members realise, either, that 5 per cent. is largely a false figure, because in most building society schemes the interest is added at the beginning of the year and all the subsequent payments of capital are not taken off the interest charge. I have found by careful examination that the effective rate is about 5¼ to 5½per cent.
  But it is not only new business that is involved. Practically all the building societies have escape clauses under which they can raise the interest rate for existing mortgages. Therefore, what the Chancellor and his colleagues have done in pursuit of a dearer money policy is not only to increase the outgoing on new mortgages but to increase it also on the whole range of existing mortgages. When I am told that the Conservative Party derive their major support from what I would call, for lack of a better word, the middle classes, I wonder what their friends are going to think when they are

  1445
  faced with an increased charge of this kind at the end of this year.
  I should like to take another actual case to illustrate my point. Let us consider the case of a pre-war house then selling at about£800. Mr. A. wants to exchange with Mr. B., and both houses are of the same type selling at£800 pre-war. Today they sell at around£3,000. In order that the one man shall sell and transfer to the other, the total amount of money "killed" is£400. There is an estate agent's charge of£70 to£80, there is Stamp Duty—to which I will return in a moment—and there are the legal costs and so on. I submit that we should find some other way of tackling that problem than one involving these outrageous charges.
  I do not know whether the Committee realise it, but it is a striking fact that even over the last few years—and I quote from the Registrar General's statistics—the general shift of population has been about 10 per cent. I believe that we want the greatest possible mobility of labour at the present time and, particularly in view of the policy of trying to enforce that mobility of labour by financial means, we should make it as easy as we can for people to move.
  I want to thank the Chancellor for the decrease he has made in the iniquitous Stamp Duty on small property. I appreciate it very much indeed. It is a substantial gain. If I may say so and give myself a small personal pat on the back, I made a critical speech on this subject to the then Government last year. I will let it go at that. I presume that if one criticises one's own Government, more notice is taken of what one says.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I may say in compliment to the hon. Member that I have read his speech.
  Mr. Daines: The right hon. Gentleman is so polite and suave and disarming that he is an awfully difficult "bloke" to hit about. I feel that more than ever now. I was always taught that the art of speaking in Parliament was to say nasty things in the nicest possible manner; but even that is difficult with the right hon. Gentleman.
  I propose to go into a little more detail on the subject of house ownership. First of all, if we take the actual capital
  1446
  that is required for the new houses that will be built under the "houses for sale" policy, we would discover that the average cost is about£2,000 or£2,250. That means an initial outlay of about£450. If the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends think that we are going to get back to the pre-war system of small deposits, I do ask them to look at the experiences we have had between the wars. It will be seen quite clearly that it is going to take quite a number of years to get back to that system, and that£400 to£500 worth of capital will be required for quite a long way ahead.
  A second factor which I think has not been properly appreciated by right hon. and hon. Members opposite is that not only is an initial deposit of£450 required but there is also a very strict limitation by the building societies on the outgo that takes place on the house in regard to the income of the individual. Building societies today insist that the total outgo, that is, mortgage cost, rates and a low figure for repairs, must not exceed 25 per cent. of the individual's salary. That means the individual's own salary; it does not mean his wife's salary or the salaries of his children. The actual individual has to be in such a position that his salary is four times as great as his actual outgo.
  Taking the kind of house I have mentioned—and I am quoting minimum figures, now—the total outgo would be in the region of£3 5s. to£3 6s. per week—I do not see how the Government can possibly escape the fact that the 50–50 policy for housing means that only about 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. of the population who are in need of housing will be in a position to afford a house even if they can make the initial outlay of£450. I submit that that financial background to the housing policy is one which makes incapable of implementation the professed policy of the Government as far as house ownership is concerned.
  I now turn to another aspect of the financial and economic policy of the Government which, I am told, is a subject which has quite a lot of dynamite in it and which I should keep off. I am not afraid of it, and I propose to state my views on the extremely touchy problem of the controlled rents system of existing houses.

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  We have to face the fact that in this country we have hundreds of thousands of houses which are rapidly becoming dilapidated for financial reasons. I believe it is a bad policy for either the present or the previous Government to imagine that we can go on indefinitely seeing a slow process of dry rot setting into these vast numbers of houses without doing something to tackle the actual problem. [An HON. MEMBER: "Tell the other side."] Oh, no! By the time I have finished I am afraid that my suggestion will not commend itself to the hon. Member opposite.
  I believe that what has happened in the case of the provision of houses to let has been that, right from the initial steps, after the First World War, our housing policy has been based upon an entirely false assumption that the building of houses to let in this country will again become an economic proposition and that private capital will do it.
  What has happened? Previous Labour Governments adopted the policy of reducing rents by local and national subsidies, and I have not the slightest doubt that this Government are going to continue with the same policy. In all our constituencies—I think this applies to everyone—we find people, living in inferior housing accommodation and very often on low salaries, who are paying a subsidy to people in better houses who are earning higher salaries. It is not common sense, and the only new houses that are likely to be let for years are going to be municipal houses. It is only a question of time when we shall be left in the position of having more rented municipal houses than others, and then, where are we going to get the bolstering up of them from? We cannot continue this indefinitely.
  My own constituency is going to shift 650 families a few miles away, to Brentwood. Those people will have no connection at all with my borough in 10 years' time, yet we shall have to pay a local subsidy to them for another 60 years. That is happening all round the country. I submit that the financial policy we have carried on in relation to housing is one which is based upon an entirely false assumption. No political party in this country, including the party opposite, have the courage really to face up to it.
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  We are going to be faced with exactly the same sort of situation as far as existing rented privately-owned property is concerned. I think there is an overwhelming case for the equalisation of rents not only in municipally-owned housing but in privately-owned housing. We have two alternatives. Either rents have to rise substantially in private housing or we have rapidly to evolve a policy under which all houses below a given rateable value are transferred to public ownership. I believe that the only solution we can possibly have for the housing of the people—which I hold most strongly to be a social service—is to bring them all under public ownership and have an equalisation of rents over the whole lot. The alternative is a very substantial rise in rents so as to make it possible to keep them in a reasonable state of repair.
  I have tried not to be too controversial, but I believe what I have said to be true. I have tried to present my points in such a way that, if they are not wholly acceptable to the Committee, at least they will provoke thought amongst hon. Members.
  6.38 p.m.
  Commander C. E. M. Donaldson: I crave the indulgence and the courtesy of the Committee in rising for the first time to speak in this debating Chamber. I am conscious that this House is said to be the most critical assembly in the world. At the same time, I am conscious of the fact that it is one which affords the most sympathy and consideration to those who are in the position in which I now stand, of making their first speech as a Member. It is this very fact which sustains me at present. I am quite sure that this is by no means liable to be my finest hour; but it is certainly going to be one of my more nervous moments.
  I feel that in making a maiden speech on the subject of the Budget one is being watched by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who have had a great deal of experience in past years. It may already be in the consciousness of bon. Members on both sides of the Committee that I have not always resided in these islands. I have only resided here as a civilian during the past five years, or a little more. I trust that the broader background of my Canadian adherence may prove acceptable to this House, which has set the high example of Parliamentary procedure and democratic

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  Government which has been followed not only in Canada but in all countries of the Commonwealth and Empire.
  Early in the Chancellor's introduction of his Budget, he brought in the subject of the Empire and the sterling area. I should like to refresh the memories of hon. Members on what my right hon. Friend said:
  "Hon Members will note that later in my speech I shall have to take account of this new factor as it affects our prospects. I have had stirring answers from that stalwart leader, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, and from my friends the Finance Ministers of India, Pakistan. Ceylon and Southern Rhodesia."
  and so on. To me that was a very heartening thing. My right hon. Friend went on to say:
  "All these Commonwealth countries, together with the colonial territories whose contribution to the economy of the sterling area is so vitally important, are taking determined action to ensure that the sterling area as a whole is not merely in balance with the rest of the world, as we planned together when we met in January, but will be in surplus with the rest of the world in the latter half of 1952. These are aims far more comprehensive than ever before adopted by the sterling Commonwealth."
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), referred to that earlier this afternoon and, placed as I am, it is not my part to be provocative or controversial. Perhaps I shall be led into temptation before long on another occasion. However, I am quite certain that that is the essence and basis of the recovery of this country. Faith in the Commonwealth sterling countries, associated with the undoubted support which we shall receive, if we ask for it and seek earnestly, from Canada and other countries associated with the Commonwealth of Nations—that is the sure foundation on which this Budget has been planned, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend has been correct in basing it on that foundation.
  I subscribe to a theory that by "faith and works" miracles can be wrought, not only in our private lives, but in national and international life as well. I strongly urge, and put myself on record as saying, that only by increasing work in this country—indeed we must all make up our minds that we have to work harder and be more productive—shall we succeed in this purpose and in sustaining ourselves in this crisis. By that faith and those works we shall, under Providence, with the
  1450
  Commonwealth and Empire countries be able to survive. We have survived the hurricane of war and the blizzards of a series of financial crises in the past few years in this country, and if we make up our minds and set our wills as a united people we can, if we direct our thoughts on the lines my right hon. Friend has set out in this Budget survive the present difficulties with which we are faced. That is my conviction.
  I was very glad, and I am sure hon. Members on both sides of the Committee were delighted, to see a reference to the Irish Republic—a brief reference:
  "I have also received a message from the Minister of Finance of the Irish Republic indicating his Government's understanding of the gravity of the situation and their deter mination to play their part in resolving it."
  I think that was a fine and healthy sign. I am sure it will bring satisfaction to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee and to the people of both Northern and Southern Ireland and all those men who have gone out from that island to other countries. It is a sign of re-affiliation: at least I trust it will prove so.
  The point I wish to stress is related to Purchase Tax, a subject which seriously affects and has affected the constituency I have the honour to represent on the Scottish Border, the Counties of Roxburgh and Selkirk. Not only there, but throughout the country, especially where textiles are the basis of life, the basis of income, there will be a sense of relief and satisfaction that consideration has been given to Purchase Tax and its relationship to the utility scheme. The Chancellor said:
  "Secondly, we propose to remove an obstacle which up to now has stood in the way of the full development of our export trade, particularly in the vital field of textiles."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March. 1952; Vol. 497, c. 1276–9.]
  That is the point in relation to the Purchase Tax which I have seen working adversely in my constituency and I know that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have had a similar experience.
  I believe Purchase Tax was instituted in the first place as a deterrent to inflation, at a time when too much money was chasing too few goods. That may have been its original purpose and undoubtedly it was a proper one, but surely we have long since reached the point when Purchase Tax ceases either

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  to be a purely money-raising tax, a tax for that purpose alone, a revenue producing tax. Perhaps it might have become—I must refrain from controversial matters—even more or less a political instrument.
  Be that as it may, there is no doubt that if the application of the Chancellor's remarks is made in a proper and progressive way to the textile industry, we will see relief and in many areas I believe we shall see a rapid return to full employment, whereas in the last few weeks and months, and even prior to the last General Election, we saw the beginning of trade recession, particularly in relation to the woollen trade and woollen manufactures, certainly in relation to the border tweed mills.
  The application of Purchase Tax has a two-fold deterrent effect on the Scottish tweed mills. It has always been a basis of export trade that the experimentation and selection of fabric, wools, colours and all the necessary stuffs required to weave these textiles for the export market, was of necessity sustained by the financial basis of the sales of similar goods in the home market. That, of course, was eliminated by the application of Purchase Tax, a tax up to 66⅔ per cent., and at the same time the introduction of the Utility scheme.
  There was another feature which had a detrimental effect. The border mills were endeavouring to build up, as they had done with considerable success, the export of Scottish tweed. Such tweed holds a much more important place in the dollar markets of America and Canada than any other export in relation to its capital.
  We produce quality goods. We do not in this country in the main subscribe to the same mass production methods of manufacturing high-quality materials, whether textiles or other manufactured commodities, as some other countries do. We do not maintain the same high standard of mass production, but we do maintain an even higher and better standard of quality goods—a standard attainable only by the work and skill of our craftsmen, designers and artisans. This skill is invaluable to us. The goods are valuable to us. The skill and the production can be sustained only by the support of the home market, allowing for
  1452
  sufficient experimentation with goods intended for export to dollar countries in order to get the dollars needed to keep our financial balance in line.
  I do not wish to dwell too long on this point. I am convinced that the lightening of the Purchase Tax as indicated by the Budget will have a far-reaching effect. Many will be grateful for it. That, I think, will be agreed on both sides of the Committee. I am sure also that there will be—and certainly in my constituency—gratitude in the agricultural areas that certain things that are necessary for the farm workers—rubber boots and other articles of clothing—have been freed from the tax. That is not controversial, and I am sure that this relief will encourage the workers in agriculture, especially as it is combined with other benefits which derive from this Budget.
  I should like to make a brief reference to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson), who also made his maiden speech today. As has been said, it is a happy coincidence that we have both selected this day—without collusion—for our maiden speeches. It is a coincidence that we should both have lived in Canada, although I have spent considerably more years there than he.
  I am very glad that we join other hon. Members of this Committee who have associations and affiliations beyond these islands—associations and affiliations of a wider scope than those limited to this country. I believe that those associations are a good thing. I believe that that will work to the benefit of all the countries concerned. I think that it is a form of Imperial Preference—an interchange of imports and exports of ideas between the Mother Country and the Dominions and Colonies. I think it is a good thing and will make for better understanding. I am delighted that my hon. Friend has made his maiden speech on the same day as I have made mine.
  The Budget we are debating today is the first Budget of this new Elizabethan era. I think that that is significant, too. I believe that, even while we face the present grim financial facts, we can look forward, if we have faith in ourselves, which we ought to have, to a great future—to another age of glory and success like that of the first Elizabethan era. We have the determination and we have the greatest craftsmen in the world and the most inventive brains.

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  If we work with sufficient energy and determination, now that we have been offered incentives in all walks of life to do so, this may well be the beginning of a new Elizabethan era, and I believe that in the next, the third quarter of this century, with the benefit of scientific research, and, perhaps, the application of atomic research to peaceful purposes, we may attain a state of civilisation and a greater improvement in our way of life than any we have hitherto expected to be possible in the latter half of this century.
  We should do well to try to forswear for ever national introspection. When I came to live in this country at the end of the war it seemed to me that the nation had become introspective politically, economically, and in many other ways. This should be thrown over. We should be outward looking. Therein lies not only salvation but greater glory in its truest sense, with the greater possibility of working with other Empire countries and with all others of good will for the maintenance of peace. We must raise our sights and vision beyond the horizon, remembering that that is our environment, too, and that there are natural resources we need.
  There are many topics I should like to mention, but I cannot speak of them all in a Budget debate. The Committee may feel inclined to take me to task for some of these ideas. At some later time I shall be glad to have occasion to follow the famous signal of a famous seaman, "Engage the enemy more closely," and engage in controversy with hon. Members opposite if they wish to take me to task. For the present, I thank the Committee for the courtesy it has shown to me in listening to me as it has done on this, the first occasion on which I have had the honour to make a speech in this Chamber.
  6.56 p.m.
  Mr. R. J. Mellish: I am very glad indeed to have the opportunity of following the hon. and gallant Member for Roxburgh and Selkirk (Commander Donaldson) and to congratulate him on his maiden speech. It does credit not only to him but to his constituents and also to the people of Canada. We are fortunate indeed that today we have had, speeches from two hon. Members who come from Canada. I speak, I am sure,
  1454
  for all hon. Members when I say that we are glad to welcome them and thus, in some way, to show our affection for that great Dominion. We look forward to the next speech of the hon. and gallant Member, and if he wants to throw some shots at us across the Floor of this Chamber we shall be glad to receive them and to throw some back a bit heavier.
  All hon. Members should look at this Budget not only from their own points of view but from the points of view of their constituents. They must see how their people react and what the effects of the Budget are upon them—what good or harm it does to them—and balance those considerations with the interests of the country as a whole. That is the way I have tried to face this Budget.
  I am glad to associate myself with others on this side who have complimented the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the way he delivered his speech and held the interest of the Committee for two hours, and on his clear exposition of many of the problems; but it occurred to me that he tried to pose as a sort of Robin Hood; he was going to take away from the rich to give to the poor. Having had some experience of the poor, living with them a long time, it seemed to me that the right hon. Gentleman had no right to adopt such a pose.
  He also tried to describe this Budget, as the Tory Press has done, as a Budget to give incentive to the workers. If it does not do that, then it is a bad Budget, and I hope to show that, in fact, it will not provide the incentives the right hon. Gentleman had in mind. Many of the people I represent are already necessarily working for the national economy, because they are dockworkers engaged in what is probably the most important industry in the whole country. Whatever charge may be laid against the late Labour Government, at least they raised the standard of living of the poorest people in the community to a level that they had never had before in their lives. It would be true to say, and certainly of many of my constituents, that for the first time in their lives poverty was removed from them. What I am worried about, and genuinely worried about, is that, perhaps unintentionally, they are to be driven back to that state of poverty again.
  The last Labour Government were accused of mismanaging the affairs of the

  1455
  country, yet the Budget shows that the Chancellor had a surplus to start with of£500 million. It does not seem to me to be bad mismanagement to have a£500 million surplus to play with. It is true that the external position of our country deteriorated badly in the last few months, but no decent, honest man would say that that was entirely the responsibility of the last Labour Government. Internally this£500 million could have been used to much better effect.
  Let us look at it through the eyes of men working in dockland. We hear a lot about dockers when they are on unofficial strikes, and I dare say hon. Members have been sickened to death of reading about them. There has been a£500 million import slash, and we are now told there is to be another£100 million imports slash. There is already a great deal of unemployment, and it is obvious that there will be still further unemployment amongst these people, because they are the people who unload the ships bringing in the imports.
  The dockers have been told that incentives are being given to them through tax reliefs; they are told that a man with a wife and two children can earn up to£17 10s. a week before paying the higher rate of Income Tax. How many dock workers earn, or will in future earn, anything like that? That is no incentive. They cannot possibly hope to earn that. This applies not merely to dock workers but to millions of people who work no overtime, such as bus drivers and shop workers who are on a basic rate, to whom this so-called concession will make not the slightest difference. It cannot help them and is of no benefit to them.
  The slash in the food subsidies will send up the price of almost everything these people buy. It was argued by the Chancellor that it was anomalous to have food subsidies so that Cabinet Ministers could, to use his own words, "go out and buy food that is subsidised." Do not Cabinet Ministers have children and draw the children's allowance? The argument that it is anomalous for people of all sections of the community to benefit from food subsidies—introduced mainly by the Labour Government—whether or not they needed it, should also apply to children's allowances.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The hon. Gentleman said that the food subsidies were largely the creation of the Socialist Government. They were created in the early days of the war, at the time of the Coalition Government, by Sir Kingsley Wood.
  Mr. Mellish: I know that, but in fairness it must be agreed that they were sustained by the Labour Government and it is a Tory Government which is slashing them. I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for making that point, because I am reminded of the famous speech of Lord Woolton, when he said in a broadcast on 13th October of last year:
  "It is all nonsense that the Tories will cut food subsidies and put up the cost of living. It is a Socialist trick."
  We now see how much of a Socialist trick it was. The Government have been in office only a few months and they introduce this slash in the food subsidies, which automatically affects the essential foodstuffs for which the people I represent must now pay more. I claim that the so-called incentive of this tax concession will not apply to millions of our people, and that will cause a great deal of unrest.
  The duty on petrol and oil has been increased, which will mean inevitably a rise in fares. I hope hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite will do something about it when that occurs again. We have just had one outburst after the recent increase in fares, which has been blamed on the Labour Government. Let us see what the party opposite do when fares go up again. They probably will not have the courage to go into the Central Lobby to meet their constituents. Certainly they will not have the courage to go to the country on the issue of this Budget.
  This is not a good Budget. It is a Budget which will hurt the people at the lower end of the scale far more than help them, and it is about those people that we should be most concerned. In addition, the Utility scheme is to be abandoned. Do the Government believe that traders will maintain the same standard at the same cheap price as before? I do not believe it. Almost everything within that scheme will be affected.
  There have already been price increases as a result of previous instalments from

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  the Chancellor, in such things as vegetables and farm prices, and the people who can least afford it will suffer. What benefit will the man earning£8 a week with a wife and two children get from this Budget? The tax reliefs do not apply to him; he gets nothing out of it. He faces only a higher cost of living—the one thing the Tory Party said they would not do, namely, to increase the cost of living. Their posters are still up on the hoardings in many places "Vote Tory and pull down the cost of living now." The Budget is so designed that the cost of living goes up on the one hand while some form of compensation is given to certain sections of the community on the other.
  The one thing about this Budget which I can praise is the increase in disability pensions. I am delighted that the Chancellor has been able to do this. What I am about to say is my own view, which I do not think is shared by my party. I wish that more money could have been made available for pensioners with 60 per cent. disability and over. The vast majority of disability pensioners come in the category below the 60 per cent, disability. There are not so many 100 per cent. disabled pensioners on the full 100 per cent. disability rate, who will get the extra 10s. a week, while the 60 per cent. disabled will get a proportionate increase. Yet in the main those people need this increase almost as much as the 100 per cent. disabled. I hope that this can be looked at again, but there will be time for this in Committee.
  I recognise that the import cuts were inevitable. To be fair, I believe that a Labour Government would have had to do the same thing. I also believe it is necessary for our people to work much harder to make the national cake that much bigger so that we can all have a larger slice, but the first responsibility and duty of any Government is to look after the people at the bottom of the scale, which is what this Government has not done. When the cost of living is raised out of all proportion, the people at the bottom end of the scale will not be able to make ends meet.
  Mr. P. Roberts: In following the hon. Gentleman's argument very carefully I
  1458
  cannot help looking at the total figures of personal incomes, where one sees that the figure for rents, rates, fuel and light is£1,100 million, whereas the figure for drink and tobacco is£1,500 million. I hope the hon. Gentleman will refer to that side of it, because I am sure it comes into his argument.
  Mr. Mellish: With great respect, the sort of people I am talking about spend almost nothing, if anything, on those sorts of things. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] They do not. The whole trouble with the Conservative Party is that they indict masses of people because of the foolishness of some. For example, when they talk about the general wages of dock workers, they say "We know of dock workers earning£16 a week." I know of dock workers who earn only£5 6s. a week, even under the Labour Government. Do they spend all this amount of money on cigarettes? Of course not. That type of man has to make his own cigarettes. He has been economising for a considerable time now, and may find himself out of work because of the import cuts. Will he be safeguarded in the future?
  The Labour Government improved the standard of living of our people and gave them a better outlook on life than they ever had before, and I warn the Government that they will not accept a drastic lowering of their conditions which would mean a return to the bad old days; they just will not take it. They cannot understand why shipowners, with their vast profits—and they are still vast, with all the taxation—should get away with it, as they put it, while they themselves have a reduced standard of living.
  It is said that there are inflationary tendencies, and we must soak up the spare money. There has not been any inflation in my part of the country for the last three years; certainly there has not been the problem of too much money chasing too few goods. There has been a demand for a reasonable standard of living. I believe that this Budget will knock off the bottom rung of the famous ladder of which the Prime Minister spoke, for many of the people I represent, and, on their behalf, I warn this Tory Government that we shall not stand for it.
  7.11 p.m.
  Mr. Rupert Speir: I should hardly have had the courage to address this assembly, particularly on this occasion, were it not for my confident reliance on the indulgence which the House always extends to newcomers and has already extended to two other maiden speakers this evening. The complexity of the modern Budget is frightening, and I am encouraged that even such experts in economics as the late Chancellor of the Exchequer confessed himself perplexed this afternoon.
  There can be no democracy, nor even Parliamentary Government, unless the Budget is capable of being reduced to simple terms. In attempting such a simplification, I would suggest that the position of our country today is somewhat parallel to that of a family with an income of say£1,200 a year and an expenditure approaching£1,300 a year—something like an excess of expenditure over income of£80 a year. If we multiply that 10 million times we are getting close to the problem which faces this country at the present time.
  Such an excess of expenditure is serious, but it is not calamitous unless we refuse to treat it seriously, and unless we refuse to see that our only choice is to stop buying so much from overseas countries and to start selling more to overseas countries. We must begin by realising two things. First, we must recognise that our present standard of living, low though it is, and lower though it be than that to which we may think we are morally entitled, is nevertheless today a great deal higher for the people of Britain than the standard of living of 90 per cent. of the population of the world, and probably 99 per cent. higher than that of any of their ancestors.
  As Mr. George Schwartz recently put it—"If you are earning£6 a week in Britain today, you are one of the upper ten." Whenever we consider this problem of the standard of living, we should remind ourselves of what Lord Balfour of Burleigh said in another place:
  "If the British people are to maintain a high standard of living, they have got to do it, as they always have done, by their own efforts."
  Realism demands so much admission—it would be pessimism, if not defeatism, to go further, and to assume that this balance of payments gap is so wide that
  1460
  we cannot possibly fill it, or that the inflationary pressure is so great that it is too tremendous to counter or resist. If we fail in this problem, it will be for want of resolution here in Britain, and failure would mean not only the ruin of this country, but would be a greater threat to Western civilisation than any that has yet been imagined.
  I am convinced that the sooner we face our difficulties, the sooner they will cease; and that it will pay the public to face the facts, to grasp the nettle here and now and to support the Government in the measures which they are proposing to restore the value of the£and to regain a sound currency. Surely we can take encouragement from the fact that leading economists are confident that with a small additional effort and with slightly more sacrifice we can put this country back on the road to recovery and expansion once more.
  The£sterling is worth only what foreigners consider it should be worth, and it will only be worth more when the world at large wants sterling. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton) spoke about the need for an honest currency—a currency which can be trusted; and yet what is the position? The position is that we are desperately short of steel in Britain today, that the Japanese have the steel, that they are willing to sell it to us but only against dollars because they do not trust the£sterling. So it is in regard to meat. We could get more meat today from the Argentine but for the fact that they, too, are distrustful of the£sterling. And even the Scandinavian countries are beginning to express their doubts.
  That road, as we know, can only lead to higher prices, to scarcity of raw materials, to unemployment and to hunger. Everything depends upon our facing up now to that problem and so does the survival of Western Europe. This country of all countries is dependent upon world trade and on what the foreigner thinks of our money—and, after all, money in that connection is only another way of saying "the capacity to produce."
  Yet this country of all the great countries was almost unique in reducing the hours of work after the war. We worked shorter hours after the war when we had become the greatest debtor in the world than we did before the war, when

  1461
  we were a great creditor country. Before the last war, every individual in this country had a claim overseas of£80 a head. Today, every individual owes a debt abroad of some£55. Surely this is not the time to cut down the hours of work. If we want to eat, we must work; if we want to eat more, we must work more. It is as simple as that.
  But if we are to ask our people to work harder, we must give them greater remuneration—and why not? Wages should be unlimited—provided the goods are produced. As I so often told the long-suffering electors of Hexham during the election campaign, the worker should be paid more than the shirker, and he should be allowed to keep more. The Budget goes far in that direction and for that reason is deserving of support.
  Time and time again, it has been said that if only we could export another 20 million tons of coal a year we should be well on the road to winning the battle of the£; if we could produce 11 tons of coal for every 10 tons which we now produce, all would nearly be well. I think that it is a heartening sight that there is now some sign of politics leaving the mines. That is the impression I gather from my contact with the mining industry and the miners in the Hexham division, which has some 20 mines within its boundaries, although some of them are admittedly small.
  I am delighted that under a Conservative Government the miners were recently awarded the largest increase in pay that the coal mining industry has ever had. In spite of the remarks of other people, I think that, by-and-large, the miners of Britain have played the game manfully since the end of the war, and it would certainly be difficult to find a more decent, friendly type of constituent. Considering the very hard times which many of them went through in the 1920s and the 1930s, they are remarkably lacking in bitterness. I have always said that the miner who produces the goods deserves more pay and should be allowed to keep more pay. The Budget encourages this. The miner will benefit, and the country will also benefit.
  Now that the miners have their pay increase, I should like to address a plea to the Chancellor on behalf of the Service man in Korea. It would give satisfaction to all hon. Members and to
  1462
  everyone in the country if my right hon. Friend could do something, even during the current year, to assist the Service man financially. The British Service man is the lowest paid of all contingents in the United Nations Forces in Korea, with the one exception of the South Koreans. If something could be done to help these men as a mark of appreciation of the splendid fight which they have put up there, it would give universal satisfaction.
  An economic hurricane is now approaching these shores and we cannot possibly hope to avert it, but by good seamanship and good helmsmanship we can ride it out and win through to calmer, better and brighter days. The Chancellor had a singularly difficult task to perform. He has proposed strong measures. We might say of some of his measures in the words used by the Prime Minister when he recently addressed Congress and which caused such a stir, that they are "prompt, resolute and effective." The Chancellor has had the courage of his convictions and for that history will honour and applaud him.
  At the present time attention is naturally directed to the raising of the Bank rate and to the cuts in the food subsidies, but in another year's time the test will be whether my right hon. Friend has been successful in dealing with the inflationary pressure and this combined rise in the cost of living. Today, throughout the world friend and foe are waiting and watching, as they have watched ever since the end of the war, to see whether this once proud nation still preserves its greatness and its realism. The Budget proposals give a clear answer in the affirmative.
  7.24 p.m.
  Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: On the last occasion when I spoke in a Budget debate I had the pleasure of congratulating an hon. Member upon his maiden speech. I have that privilege again. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) on a very excellent speech. I propose to go into some parts of that speech in a few minutes' time, but meanwhile I would just say that I remember that a very honoured Member of this House represented Hexham before the hon. Member was returned for the division and I hope that the hon. Member's service in this

  1463
  House will be no less valuable than that of his predecessor.
  I want to compare the speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer made yesterday with the speech he made in the last Budget debate. An old friend of mine once told me that if one wanted to understand a speech or a book one had better first understand the man responsible for it. I readily confess that I do not know the Chancellor personally, and so I must reverse the process and try to find out something about the Chancellor from the speeches that he has made.
  The Chancellor is a glaring case of dual personality. The strange thing is that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Waldren (Mr. R. A. Butler), speaking in the last Budget debate, contradicted the spech which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made yesterday. What a curious paradox that is!If we examine the two speeches side by side, we find that what the right hon. Gentleman said last April can be quoted against what he said yesterday. The story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde almost pales into insignificance against this, because that was fiction and this is fact.
  I urge hon. Members to ponder upon some of the words used by the right hon. Gentleman yesterday. Last year he criticised my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), saying that his Budget speech had:
  "…practically shelved—from the point of view of the ordinary citizen, not the economist—the whole question of the rising cost of living."
  He also said:
  "Just as the Chancellor now condones profits—for the good reason that he wants to take them away—in the same way he ignores the rising cost of living to the housewife but says, in his economic exercise, that he has relieved inflation, when everybody knows that a severe cost inflation is going on."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 16th April, 1951; Vol. 486, c. 1574.]
  Those are the two quotations which I wish to use. They are not simply taken out of the context of the right hon. Gentleman's speech last April; those words are the basis of all he said. He accused my right hon. Friend of ignoring the appeals of the supporters of the Labour Party and of many people in the country and of not making an attempt to shield them from the principal economic
  1464
  difficulty of that day, which was the rising cost of living.
  The right hon. Gentleman criticised my right hon. Friend, but the Chancellor's offence is much greater. He not only ignores the rising cost of living by taking away a good proportion of the food subsidies, but he also ignores the many people who are crying out at the high prices of commodities. He even ignores the now discredited insipid adjunct of the Tory Party, the Housewives' League. He does this by deliberately increasing prices by taking away the food subsidies which have provided a certain amount of protection at any rate to those with the lowest incomes. The reduction in the food subsidies will be strongly resented in this country.
  Mr. P. Roberts rose—
  Mr. Winterbottom: I will give way if the hon. Gentleman will permit me to finish this point. I know that the Chancellor can plead he has made concessions to the old people, the sick, and the unemployed and has given tax reliefs. For those things we are thankful.
  Mr. Roberts: The hon. Member wants to be fair, but he cannot attack my right hon. Friend because of the reduction of the food subsidies, on the one hand, and then compliment him, on the other, for the reduction of taxes. The two things go hand in hand. I know the hon. Member will be fair, because we in Sheffield like to see things done straight.
  Mr. Winterbottom: I wish the hon. Member had not been so quick in getting to his feet and had let me finish my point, because the attack is not finished yet. When I look at the concessions which the Chancellor has made, there is not a single one or a collective set of them which covers fully the increase in the cost of living since the Tory Party came to power, irrespective of the rise through the taking away of so much of the food subsidies. That is pretty strong, but I believe it to be the feeling of the people of Sheffield whom I represent and who have to work very hard for their living.
  Mr. Roberts: Go back and find out.
  Mr. Winterbottom: I understand that the hon. Member is going to the Firth Brown factory in my division. I do not need to find out; he will.

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  What about the childless couples who are not covered by any concession made? Some of them on the basic rates for many of the heavy industries of this country receive no more pay than£5 10s. for a full week's work. They have got no concessions. What about those living in council houses who are going to be affected by the increase in the Bank rate as well as being affected by the previous increase? How about those whose income is too low for taxation at all? They have got no concessions, and if they have no children there is no relief for them. On low wages there is no relief by way of Income Tax. These are issues which the Chancellor has either not taken into consideration or has deliberately ignored.
  What about those who are not fully employed, who are losing a few hours each week through short time and who have no opportunity to sign on at the employment exchange and get the necessary relief there? Many of these ought to be transferred to re-armament or the export industry, but there is no guarantee that there are enough raw materials to keep those industries going.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said the other day that unemployment would reach one million in this country during the year. Having regard to the Budget statement, that was an understatement. This Budget will inevitably create unemployment and so will make all the tax reliefs and concessions idle and futile.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Would the hon. Gentleman suggest that this Budget should pay less attention to the needs of civilian consumption, which appeared to be one of the things of concern on the other side of the Committee?
  Mr. Winterbottom: I would have the Chancellor pay attention to the needs of consumption especially at the lower end of the social scale, and this the Chancellor has forgotten to do. The people I represent, and many others, are going to suffer because the right hon. Gentleman is producing an anti-subsidy policy which was hidden from the electors during the Election. Hon. Members have used the words of a noble Lord in another place. I am not going to do so because he is in another place and cannot therefore answer me. But I will use the words
  1466
  of his right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, who in the Budget debate last year used these words which the Conservative Party has completely ignored. In answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South, the present Colonial Secretary said:
  "If it would help the right hon. Gentleman, our view is that food subsidies should not be reduced at this time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th April, 1951; Vol. 486, c. 1574 and 1588.]
  Is that the view of the official Tory Party, or has there been a change? There has been an election, and this is now the position. I protest most strongly at the taking away of£160 million from the food subsidies of this country, and I make that protest irrespective of the compensation which has been given in very short measure to the people I have mentioned.
  I want to put one or two questions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Shortly after I entered this House in 1950, Sir Stafford Cripps was resisting pressure to reduce the food subsidies. He said, in effect, that it was inevitable that the poorest would suffer, that they could not afford the increased prices and only the well-to-do would be able to afford certain commodities. Is that the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer today? As a logical conclusion to his policy, I want to ask, is this the prelude to de-rationing? Is this the start of rationing by the purse? I hope I shall have an answer either from the right hon. Gentleman or whoever replies for the Government.
  I have another criticism to make which is totally different because it deals with the industrial life of the country. This is where I come on to the same ground as the hon. Member for Hexham. The Chancellor will agree that we cannot separate the many complicated aspects of our economy. Our economy is a whole. I agree with the Chancellor and others that increased productivity is the key to the future provided we can overcome the restrictions in the free world and in this country. I know the difficulties which are exemplified in Australia and France, and I have every sympathy with the difficulties which those countries are facing. But we have no kick against them for preventing our exports going to them, because the Chancellor is doing

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  precisely that here. He has cut to the extent of£600 million in three attempts since the party opposite came to power.
  I agree that production is complementary to other activities; defence, world negotiations, prices, exports, balance of payments and so on. But I do not agree that this Budget will reach that objective, and I will state why. One of the big problems of this country and of the present Government is to establish confidence with the workers of this country, especially the productive worker.
  Let us take it a little further. It does not lend itself to the confidence of the productive worker—and I will come to my capacity, or my right, to speak for the productive worker shortly—when we take away food subsidies and increase the cost of living. I have already referred to that and will not deal with it any further. But it does not add to that confidence when they know of the horrible uncertainty which there is at the present time in the labour market.
  I represent a constituency in Sheffield, and I think that the hon. Member for Heeley (Mr. P. Roberts) will agree that in my constituency there is over 60 per cent. of the steel-making and steel manufacturing plant. Coal and steel are the most vital commodities affecting our economy. If I had a magic wand and could conjure up 2 million tons of steel and 30 million tons of coal, we could be free of most of our economic difficulties at this moment. But unfortunately I have not a magic wand, and wishful thinking will not get coal or steel.
  Regarding steel, and we agree this is vital to the economy of our country, I have one criticism of the Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Only one?"] That is all at the moment, but I have a good many years of life yet. The Prime Minister made an agreement in America for a million tons of steel to come here. How is he getting that steel? It is by means of ore from Sweden and from Spain and scrap from Germany which is taken to America by American ships and brought back here as steel, whatever kind of steel it is. Why did not the Prime Minister make the necessary agreement with America for the ore from Sweden and from Spain and the scrap from Germany to come directly here, so that we could have the convertibility value?
  Mr. P. Roberts: The trouble, as the hon. Member knows, is that the late Government made an agreement with Germany reducing the scrap coming to this country while America was getting the scrap. Hon. Members on this side of the Committee pressed the late Government to allow that scrap to come here, and it is because of the muddling of the late Government that we have to go to America to bring it back again.
  Mr. Winterbottom: If there is any muddle at all, I thing I could bring it much nearer to the hon. Member than I could to the late Government. In point of fact, the business negotiations for steel in America did not start until after the present Government had assumed office—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I wish to pay a great tribute to the miners and steel workers of this country for the magnificent job they have done which has produced whatever we have at the present time.
  I wish to return to the subject of Sheffield, because Sheffield epitomises the situation as it may be found in so many of the heavy industrial districts of the country. In Sheffield we have a problem of under-employment and unemployment, and a growing problem of short-time in steel. We also have vacancies for many people in the armament and export sides of the industry. On the face of it, the problem seems simple. Why not transfer the workers from the industries now suffering short-time into industries engaged in the armament programme and export?
  That would seem a simple solution, but unfortunately things do not happen like that in the industrial world. Is it not reasonable to suppose that a man will keep the people he has trained to be skilled men as long as he possibly can? It will have to be an extreme emergency before he releases them to go across the road to the other fellow who, because he is lucky, may be engaged on armaments or export work. An employer will keep his skilled men for as long as he can, even if he has to buy a lot of brushes to keep them busy.
  Again we need confidence in a Government, because all Governments today have to work by priorities and priorities are very transient things. This problem of under-employment may change Government priorities in the twinkling of an eye.

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  If the best employees are lost to an employer, he will find it difficult to replace them. That is one of the problems this Government have to face, which I hope will be noted by the Parliamentary Secretary.
  Then there is the problem of the worker. I warn this Government to beware that their efforts in this Budget do not create a queue of unemployed which they cannot control. That is where this Budget slips up. It can be read to give the impression that exports cannot be increased. It could be read that we are groping for markets which we cannot find. It restricts everything and yet, with those restrictions and those contractions, this Government through this Budget commit the unpardonable crime of allowing the price of money to go up. Can we wonder that the biggest task of this Government is to get the confidence of the workers and especially of the productive workers?
  We cannot expect that confidence when the workers know that the declared intention of this Government is to contract, to institute cuts, and to pursue the policy of restrictionism, not in the interests of the country, and not for the welfare of all, but in the interests of free enterprise, for that is the situation.
  The Chancellor spoke yesterday of the three steps he had taken to institute cuts to cure the balance of payments problem. But he forgot one thing which is the first declaration of this Government. The Gracious Speech at the beginning of this Parliament stated:
  "My Government will seek to promote flexibility in those industries which have been brought under public management and to stimulate free enterprise by giving it a fuller share in our economic activity. They will be mindful of the great demands on our productive capacity, and will consider all methods for creating that spirit of partnership between management and workers on which industrial harmony and a higher level of productivity must depend.—"
  Then it goes on:
  "A Bill will be placed before you to annul the Iron and Steel Act with a view to the reorganization …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th November. 1951; Vol. 493, c. 52.]
  How can we expect the confidence of the workers when every aspect of Government policy is partisan? One of the problems we have to face is the problem of fear of unemployment which at the present moment runs like a contagious disease through the whole of the Indus
  1470
  trial workers of this country. Some of them say rightly, "What about this deployment of labour? Why change our job when if we do we shall be the last men in and the first men out?"
  That is a very important consideration for the man who has been in work for six-and-a-half years but has had many years of unemployment before that. I have never been to a university in my life, except as a visitor. Mine has been the economics of living with men and women who have had to work for a living, and work hard at that. These people are the salt of the earth. I am talking about realities. It is necessary to understand these men and we cannot do that by remote control. One can only understand them if one has had to live their life. Professor Laski said that one could not alter the capitalist room by monkeying about with a thermometer.
  This Budget is a partisan Budget. It follows the line of repression and restriction which the Government have followed ever since they came into office. They talk about steel de-nationalisation. They expect the steel workers of Sheffield to have confidence in a Government, the Prime Minister of which is making the important industry of steel into a political shuttlecock.
  If the Government really want this confidence which hon. Members have talked about in their Budget speeches, and which they do not understand, they must make a gesture to the workers which is of more practical value. I suggest that the Government should reconsider the cuts in the food subsidies and also that they should seriously consider throwing into the waste paper basket the plan to de-nationalise steel. Then they might have a chance.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. J. Langford-Holt: I suppose that any hon. Member who has sat through Budget debates, as I have, year after year, will agree that there are three types of speeches to which we have to listen. First there is that made by the economist, amateur or professional. Then we have the hon. Member who trots across the pages of HANSARD, drawing behind him a string of quotations and red herrings. Third, we have the hon. Member who makes the type of speech which I hope to make. I refer to the speech devoted to a narrow aspect

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  about which the hon. Member either thinks or hopes that he has some knowledge.
  It is customary on an occasion such as this to declare a personal interest. I am a director of a firm engaged in the industry to which I wish to direct attention. Any figures which I quote are based on the experience which I have gained there. The industry to which I wish to call attention is the oil re-refining industry. I very much doubt whether many hon. Members have heard what this industry does or, at any rate, I doubt whether many hon. Members have stopped to consider its activities. I have drawn its activities to the attention not only of this Administration but the previous one.
  The oil re-refining industry seeks to put back into use for industry lubricating oil which has been used already once or more. The industry was really started in this country in 1940, though to a lesser extent it had existed here previously. The chemical facts are that once oil has come into existence, its lubricating properties cannot be destroyed however many times it is refined or re-refined. What is done in the original refining can be done many times subsequently. Another fact is that when waste oil is re-refined, one gets a product which in quantity amounts to about 70 per cent. of the original. Her Majesty's Government, and all Governments since 1940, have made considerable use of re-refined oil.
  Before I go further, I should like to mention the dimensions of this industry and of this problem. The latest figures which I could conveniently obtain are for the last half of 1951 when, if my information is correct, we imported—and this takes into account the re-export of certain amounts of oil—£8,750,000 worth of oil. The firm with which I am connected estimate that it re-refined oil to the equivalent import value of one million dollars—and it is only a small concern.
  It should be borne in mind that lubricating oil, unlike many other oils, not only has a dollar content but that that dollar content is almost 100 per cent. In fact, almost all our lubricating oil comes from dollar sources. That has a great bearing on the
  1472
  balance of payments problem with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is confronted. The one million dollars which I say that my concern is saving represents only 60 per cent. of our potential with the equipment which we have at the moment.
  The oil industry—I am not now concerned with one firm only but all of it—is faced with two problems. The first is instability of supplies. Whether one considers a garage or a firm, it is much easier to tip a gallon of waste oil down a drain than it is to tip it into a tank to be subsequently collected by a tanker and taken away.
  The second problem is that the market for re-refined oil is restricted because of the sales resistance. People have a feeling that re-refined oil is not up to the standard of the original. That sales resistance represents a very serious problem. With the equipment at its disposal, the industry, if it were fully occupied, would be capable of saving something like 2½million dollars per annum. With a very slight increase in expenditure that amount could be increased by something like 25 per cent.
  What is possible with this industry? We import 20 million dollars' worth of oil and 70 per cent. of the waste oil is recoverable. Some countries are able to save the other 30 per cent. of their oil imports, but I do not think we can do this in this country. I am indicating the maximum possibility.
  Governments have used this industry to a great extent. Sir Stafford Cripps and the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), have known perfectly well all about it. At the moment, one Government Department has instituted a system which will make it impossible for smaller firms to be able to compete in this matter. We collect oil from practically every garage and concern in the country. Wherever oil can be preserved, it is not thrown down the drain. It is all collected, re-refined and offered back to industry again. We will continue to collect it, despite the instability with which the industry is faced by fluctuations. At one moment it is difficult to get necessary supplies, and at another moment it is difficult to get the waste oil. This makes for instability in an industry which we should do our best to preserve.

  1473
  It is a matter of some regret that my own personal interests are coincidental with the national interests. I wish they were not. One's impartiality would be more likely to be believed. We are faced with the problem of preserving, conserving and watching at every turn, the oil resources of this country. It is our contention that this waste oil, like wastepaper and salvage of every sort, must be preserved by the country in its own interests. I earnestly implore the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues to look into this matter. I am sure that they will regard it benevolently, as did the previous Administration, but there is great room for improvement, which can be easily achieved.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I hope that the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Langford-Holt) will excuse me from following him into the rather slippery medium in which he appears to be interested. He has convinced me that he performs in some respects the same function as the equaliser in the public house to which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) is so deeply and persistently attached.
  This is a clever Budget, because the concessions made in it are apparent and obvious, while the effect of the changes to the detriment of the ordinary man are not obvious and may not be fully attributed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When they happen to the ordinary man he may think that they come from the malevolence of shopkeepers, because of world prices or for some reason other than the actual one.
  The Budget illustrates very well the limits of the connection between Budgetary matters and the financial position of this country in the world. We have been told that a disaster is rapidly approaching, but when we come to look at the measure of it we see that it depends almost entirely on the course of world prices in the past. The success of whatever may be done to meet the difficulty is equally bound to depend on the course of world prices in the future.
  I am not saying that that is the only matter, but it happens to be the only one of the causes for which the Chancellor provided a figure in his Budget speech. He pointed out, after saying that
  1474
  the deficit on the balance of payments was£400 million more than was expected, that the increase in volume of our imports—which he described as a big factor—was about£300 million, and it was because of higher prices that the total increase in the import bill was£1,100 million. I regard the Budget as an interesting admission by the Tory Party that there are very definite limits to what can be done to meet our trading and balance of payments difficulty within the frame of an annual Budget.
  One comes to the inevitable conclusion that the difficulties we face from time to time in this country are dependent on something much more fundamental than mere Budgetary questions. It is obvious that the root of the problem is that the population of the world, its needs and its wants, are growing faster than the available supply of food and raw material. It is for that reason that the terms of trade and the tasks of successive Chancellors become increasingly difficult.
  In that position, what we can at least consider is how best we can protect our citizens from the difficulties that are bound to hit hard a country that is primarily a manufacturing one and is more dependent than any other country on imports of food and raw materials. In the light of those considerations, I regard the major change in this Budget, the very large reduction in food subsidies in order to make certain Income Tax concessions, as disastrous.
  I am not concerned for the moment with Tory election propaganda and Tory election promises. They have been broken, as has been said before, and it does not surprise me at all. I have been in politics for some time, and I have my own opinion about Tory propaganda and Tory promises, and I can only say that recent events have not in any way changed that opinion.
  What does distress me is the effect that this change is bound to have. We were told that it would bring us back in some way to reality. I wonder if right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite appreciate two things. We are concerned with food prices, and if they will look, as I have looked, into what are, I think, the latest available figures relating to food prices in the January, 1952, issue of the Statistical Bulletin of the Food and Agri-

  1475
  culture Organisation, they will find two curious things.
  The first is that, if we take the proportion of retail food costs to the cost of living generally—that is to say, if we try to estimate the proportion which retail food prices bear to the general cost of living—and if we take 1948, as these figures do, as the standard, we find that, up to the time to which the latest available statistics relate—the end months of last year—the rise in food costs in this country, as a proportion of the cost of living, has been greater than in any other comparable country—considerably greater. Apart from any general rise in the cost of living, our food prices in this country have shown a larger rise than food prices in any other country. When I say any other comparable country, I should add that I looked through all the obvious Western European countries, and, for good measure, I added the United States. There is not the least doubt about that, and at this late hour I do not propose to go into the figures.
  Mr. A. C. M. Spearman: That looks as if the food subsidies have not been very effective in keeping down prices.
  Mr. Mitchison: I do not think that is the conclusion to be drawn. I think the conclusion that should be drawn is that food subsidies, given their limitations, and given world prices at present, are not holding back a rise in our prices which, of course, corresponds with the rises in most other countries, but is proportionately greater here, and, if I may add my own opinion, proportionately more unfortunate.
  What I think the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) and others have to consider is that, when we open the floodgates, as we do by cutting down food subsidies, the pressure behind them in this country is remarkably heavy, as it is bound to be in a country which is so dependent on imports. Again, if we look at the actual rise in prices, we find the same is true; they have risen here equally with prices in France and more than in any other comparable country.
  I think the hon. Gentleman the Member for Scarborough and Whitby, who interrupted, is perfectly correct, and I entirely agree with him, in saying that food subsidies can only
  1476
  be some sort of check on the general rise in world prices, and, without going into details, the whole of the Budget speech, including the reference to the position of the consumer during this year—and that is what I am considering now—depends upon the assumption, for which the Chancellor gave remarkably few reasons, that prices will remain roughly the same during the year.
  That is not my impression. I should have thought that there was an indication already of a very sharp rise in prices. I should very much like to know whether it really is expected that prices for imported meat, for instance, and the prices of what we may obtain from our own Dominions, notably cheese, will remain the same if we eliminate, as the Chancellor proposes to do, a number of what I might call competitive cheeses
  I should have thought that the whole indication was that prices were likely to rise, and to remove the food subsidies to the extent of nearly half their amount at this moment seems to me to be an absolutely disastrous thing to do. We are bound to have not only an immediate rise, of which we have some indication again in present prices, but also, afterwards, the workers of this country, and especially the lower-paid workers, making irresistible and unanswerable claims for increases to meet that rise. We are bound in that way to start an inflationary spiral as regards wages in conditions in which, dependent as we are on imports from abroad, we shall find it more than usually difficult—I was going to say impossible—to stop it.
  It is said that the cuts in food subsidies are an advantage to everyone. That is not fair. I am reminded of the 1931 position, when it was said: "Let us all have a 10 per cent. cut." I remember a cartoon that came out at the time which showed a ladder, the lower half of which was standing in water. Well above the water level was a man in a top hat, and another man below with his head just above the water line. The man in the top hat was turning round and saying to the other "Now, it is quite easy, brother; we all go down one step." It would have put the man in the choker under the water, and left the gentleman in the top hat well above the danger level.
  That is what will happen about these food subsidies. They are absolutely

  1477
  necessary for some families in this country in order to keep alive. If we are going to start again the kind of thing I have just recalled, then we are going to re-introduce into this country a form of poverty which is an absolute disgrace to a civilised community that claims to stand for democracy and progress.
  I have only one other thing to say, and this time I want to speak about the Douglas Report and Purchase Tax. This is, to some extent, a constituency matter, and I hope I shall be excused for raising it, because it has another aspect. We all have feet, and, on those feet, we wear boots and shoes, and, during the past few years, 98 per cent. or more of the boots and shoes produced in this country have been Utility, and, therefore, have not paid Purchase Tax. The effect of what is now suggested, following, I agree, the Douglas Report in this matter, will be to put Purchase Tax on a very considerable number of boots and shoes. That is one effect which it will have.
  There will be a second effect. By virtue of the Utility exemption from Purchase Tax not having been applicable to foreign imports, the lower ranges of our boot and shoe production particularly have benefited by a sort of supplemental tariff. I agree that it was quite wrong, and that it was in breach of the G.A.T.T. Agreement, but there it was. What is now proposed is to open that door to foreign competition and, at the same time, to put a new tax on the higher grades in the industry. I say to the Chancellor, "This industry has not, in fact, paid Purchase Tax to any appreciable extent before. If you do those things now, you are putting a new tax particularly on those who can bear it least whatever theoretical justification and nice tidiness of arrangement you think it will have."
  That industry is now tottering on the verge of unemployment. It is finding it difficult to sell its boots and shoes. That is not reflected in the unemployment statistics because there is a guaranteed week in the industry. There are, however, far too many men in Kettering and in other places at the present moment on that guaranteed week. If the Chancellor delivers at the moment the blow of which I have been speaking, then he will knock the boot and shoe industry in Northampton and in other parts of the country uncommonly hard.
  1478
  After all, the industry has to make these boots and shoes because we shall still have the feet, and we do not want to reduce my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), to the bare-footed condition of his childhood about which he has told us from time to time, and we do not want to knock large numbers of people out of employment in an area where, because it is the main source of employment, the effect will be enormously widespread.
  I appeal to the Chancellor not to be too tidy-minded either about the Purchase Tax or about the Douglas Report. Let us see what we are doing, industry by industry, and let us remember that this nice tidy-looking idea of taking a half-way line and putting a tax on the excess above it may be grossly unfair in some cases, and have a certain illogicality about it at bottom. I do not think the Douglas Report or those who wrote it ever really contemplated what the effect of their proposals would be in particular cases.
  I have given, I hope, some reasons for suggesting that this Budget may look all right. As the "Manchester Guardian" said this morning:
  "There is a good deal more than you think in the Chancellor."
  There is a good deal more than one thinks in this Budget, too, and I suggest that what look like fiscal adjustments of the burden will operate with cruel and improvident hardship on sections of the population who cannot at present afford to bear that burden, and will result in national injustice of such an order as will make all of us ashamed if ever we see it in this country again.
  8.24 p.m.
  Sir Ian Fraser: I hope the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) will excuse me if I do not follow him in his remarks. My reason is a very simple one; it is that I want above all to make a non-party speech, and perhaps I may be excused if, having regard to a very long sustained concern of mine, I deal with one particular subject, namely, the position of disabled ex-Service and other people. It is not that I am unaware of the needs of the country as a whole or of the repercussions of this Budget upon all my constituents and all classes in the community, but there is not time for all

  1479
  of us to speak about everything. Therefore, I propose to devote the few minutes I shall speak to this one subject.
  There are some 750,000 ex-Service men and a few women who have been disabled in the two wars, about half in each. During the six years since the end of the second war, this country, through its Ministry of Pensions, has increased by special arrangements and by special allowances the compensation paid to those most severely disabled, representing about 6 per cent. of the whole, to a very material extent. Therefore, most of those very severely disabled men now receive in money something like twice as much as they received when the war came to an end.
  I am not going to argue tonight whether that is wholly adequate for any or all of them. There are still many whose compensation would be thought by any impartial inquiry to be inadequate, but, by and large, the very severely disabled have been cared for by these special allowances, and in the process an addition of between£10 and£12 million has been added to the Budget of the Ministry of Pensions since the end of the last war.
  The partially disabled—all those who have lost one limb or part of a limb, or who suffer from illnesses and disabilities which while very hurtful and while robbing them of many pleasures and handicapping them in their work are, nevertheless, not in the severest categories—have been left with practically the compensation they were receiving before the war began, or when it came to an end. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has set aside some£10 million in order to raise the basic rate of war pensions by 10s. a week for those very severely disabled men and by proportionate amounts for those less severely disabled, and for widows.
  I want to examine briefly the facts in this matter to see whether we are doing what we should, and to give credit where credit is due. As I have said, the increase in the expenditure of the Ministry of Pensions over the past 6½years has been some£10 or£12 million, and yesterday, in one Budget, a further increase of£10 million was made. Some think that is a substantial amount to find in one Budget. Whether it is enough or not, it is nevertheless a substantial amount. It
  1480
  comes, of course, at a time when there are peculiar difficulties in the country and when we are told that economies generally must be the rule. Therefore, it seems to me that we have to judge it in the context of national affairs as we see them at the present time.
  This amount of 10s. added to the existing pension of the most severely disabled man has, when taken into consideration with the 10s. comforts allowance introduced for some of these men in June of last year, and extended to a wider number a few weeks ago, raises the compensation of that class by quite a substantial amount.
  But the partially disabled, numbering 650,000 or thereabout, have had no rise since 1946, when they received a percentage of the 5s. It has been contended that any rise of that magnitude was hardly worth the making, but it was made by the Government in power in 1946. The 5s. was added to the basic rate and I Os is now added. I regard it as a useful amount, whether it be the 10s. added to the pension of the severely disabled or the 5s. that is added to the compensation of the 50 per cent. disabled man. Had he not been singled out for this addition to his weekly income he would have had to meet, without any help from any other source, the full difficulties of the present time. As it is, most of these men will be more than compensated for the rises which the Budget will entail.
  The amount that those who suffer from the slightest disabilities—in the 20 per cent. and the 30 per cent, grade—will receive may be considered to be but a token. Nevertheless, it is twice as much a token as they received in 1946.
  Summing up my views of this matter, I think there will be some disappointment amongst ex-Service men generally that the amount of this increase does not match even the minimum figures which have been produced, and which can be repeated, to show what should have been done for them to bring their compensation to the point at which it should stand now having regard to the fall in the value of the£. I will not elaborate an argument with which the Committee is so familiar. I only want to place on record that the amount does not meet requirements calculated on the most conservative basis.

  1481
  Nevertheless, it recognises certain principles which are very important. One is the principle that the standard basic rate was an attempt on the part of Parliament and the State to compensate these men for the disabilities from which they suffered as measured by a medical assessment. The fact that this additional grant has been made to all as an addition to the standard basis rate, and not selectively and not subject to any means test or to employability test, meets one of the principles which many of us have thought very important indeed.
  Secondly, at a time when the only other payments being made to citizens through the Budget are based strictly upon need amongst the very poorest this compensation, which is based far more on equity than on need in the strictest sense, is particularly appreciated. There is also in the Budget provision for considering how best to improve the pensions of long-service men. I am glad that is so. 'They are a class who deserve our sympathy and I am very glad indeed that the Government have met the plea which has been made to them from so many quarters for this improvement.
  I want to express my thanks to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the Minister of Pensions for meeting the requests made to them from many quarters to the extent that they have done. I should like to thank the House of Commons for the support which has been forthcoming from many quarters and to thank particularly those on all sides who have taken a special interest in the cause of disabled ex-Service men and disabled industrial workers.
  Strange as it may seem, and possibly unusual, I should like to thank the taxpayers who pay the bill for their forbearance about demanding things for themselves, and the workers who make the goods and provide the services, which these men will be able to buy additionally with the extra money.
  I hope that the Committee may not think it amiss if I say that we, in all parts of the Committee, appreciate the way in which the British Legion and other organisations have brought this matter to our notice through their national bodies and their branches throughout the constituencies. No doubt the British Legion, in the years to come, as in the past, will continue to represent
  1482
  these men's views individually and collectively. No doubt they will hope that the admission of the principle in the present Budget means that that principle will stand, that it has been reinforced and that as soon as affairs in our country render it possible further steps will be taken to bring the compensation of their disabled comrades into line with the present value of money.
  I said I did not want to say anything that would be controversial or of a party nature. Nevertheless, it would be churlish to sit down without saying a word about the Budget in general. I conclude, therefore, with this single statement: I consider that this is a Budget which will appeal very widely on a non-party basis, and I earnestly hope it will give our country a fresh start.
  8.38 p.m.
  Captain M. Hewitson: I was very sorry to hear the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) give such effusive thanks for the pittance that is being offered to the disabled ex-Service men. We are living today in a world atmosphere in which again we may be pitchforked into another war. When that takes place we shall have our meetings and patriotic gatherings, we shall say to the boys who have been called away, "We shall look after you. We shall look after your families and if anything should happen and you should become disabled we shall not forget." And when the war finishes, as in 1918 and 1945, we shall say with our hands on our hearts that at the rising and the setting of the sun we shall remember them.
  It was with regret that I heard the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale give these effusive thanks when one would have expected him to be standing up and demanding more from the Chancellor of the Exchequer for those men who have given so much for our safety and well-being and for the good of our nation.
  The 50 per cent. pensioner will get 5s. per week if he is a married man with two children and is going to be penalised by the reduction in the food subsidies to the tune of 6s. per week, if we take the figure of 1s. 6d. per head used by the Chancellor yesterday. This pensioner is going to have his social service stamp increased by 7d., making a total of 6s. 7d., and a

  1483
  generous Government are going to give him 5s. to meet that cost alone. The whole thing is manifestly unfair.
  Sir I. Fraser: I know the hon. and gallant Member for Hull, Central (Captain Hewitson), voted against the Labour Government in a debate on war pensions. He was one of two who did. If 100 had joined me then we should have got what we wanted three or four years ago.
  Captain Hewitson: One should at least be consistent, and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should have been consistent in his demand for higher pensions. I regret that he has not been.
  Coming to the larger issues, at the present time we are facing difficulties of which we cannot see the end. Appeals have been made for greater production and answers have been given to those appeals. When the present Government won the Election, two or three months ago, we had an urge, throughout the country: "Let the great trade union movement break this Government by industrial power." We are all fully aware of the cry which went round. What happened? The T.U.C. immediately came into the open and made a public statement—a statement to the world. They said, "Although the Government has been changed, the interests of the country stand pre-eminent so far as we in the industrial workers' movement are concerned. So long as the Government play the game we shall give to this Government—although we do not like it—the same support as we gave to our colleagues when they occupied the Government Benches."
  During the last two or three weeks, when urges have been made from several industries and several parts of the country to declare for industrial action to fight against the proposed cuts in the social services, the Trades Union Congress and the unions of the country have again advised their members, "Take no such action: the correct action is on the Floor of the House of Commons. As soon as ever we mix industrial action to combat anything that takes place in the House, we are sowing the seeds of dictatorship and the breakdown of the State we know at the present time." That is the attitude we have adopted with regard to Her Majesty's Government.
  1484
  In his speech, yesterday—about a Budget which has been acclaimed by hon. Members who back his party as a wonderful one—the Chancellor possibly did more damage in this country than has ever been done by any Chancellor for very many years past. He stood up yesterday, with his hand on his heart, with his robe of piety wrapped round him, and told us of all the good things he was giving to the poor down-and-outs and the downtrodden.
  Mr. Shurmer: He did not tell us what he was taking away, though.
  Captain Hewitson: I have in my hand a list of wage rates being paid in a number of industries. I do not think right hon. Gentlemen opposite would dispute them; they are published by the Ministry of Labour. This list gives the wage rate of a number of industries. I have taken from that list 99 industries, and those 99 contain the whole section of the great chemical industry. The average wage in the 99 industries is 120s. That means that the men in those industries are not paying Income Tax to commence with.
  If the 1938 inquiry into the cost of living by the Minister of Labour is taken as a correct record, the average family in this country is 3.73. Taking that figure to mean a man, woman and two children, and taking the Chancellor's own statement yesterday, that the cut in food subsidies would mean an extra 1s. 6d. per head, that family will have to pay 6s. There will be 7d. extra on the man's health service stamp, 3s. will be given to him for the second child, which means that he will be 3s. 7d. out of pocket each week.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Oliver Lyttelton): I do not want- to interrupt the hon. and gallant Member more than necessary, but the 120s. is a basic wage, not an average wage.
  Captain Hewitson: I am pleased the right hon. Gentleman has said that. I was hoping that someone from the other side would say something similar, because I have worked it out for another industry. But taking the loss as 3s. 7d. it means that I, as a responsible trade union official, would be entitled to state a wage claim for 1d. per hour in a 44 hour week. I should be entitled to say to the employer, "I am not prepared to

  1485
  take 'no' for an answer." The Chancellor yesterday made statements about the good it was going to do to the lower-paid worker, but I suggest that he looks at his own Department. The grades known as the M grades are on M rates, which are 114s., with very little overtime.
  I understand that tomorrow the Chancellor's officers are resisting an application for 6s. a week increase, which would bring them up to 120s., the average of the 99 industries. We are taking the lowest level. The right hon. Gentleman said that is the minimum base rate, and, of course, it is; we make all our applications on minimum base rates. The effect will be that the dam by which we have been holding back for the last two or three weeks the demand for industrial action, the stand made by responsible trade union leaders in this country stopping that industrial action, will be undermined by such statements as that which we heard from the Chancellor yesterday.
  Mr. P. Roberts: The hon. and gallant Member said that what was happening was undermining the stand which had been taken against a proposition that matters of this kind should not be dealt with in the House of Commons. I understood him to say that. As I follow his statement, there is now an argument that the lower-paid workers might put in for increases in wages, but that is not undermining the democratic suggestion—
  Mr. Shurmer: My hon. and gallant Friend did not say that.
  Mr. Roberts: I know, but I am trying to make the point quite clear.
  Mr. Shurmer: The hon. Member is twisting it.
  Mr. Roberts: With respect, I am trying to help the hon. and gallant Member in his argument. This affects us in Sheffield, as the hon. and gallant Member appreciates, and we have appreciated the stand the trade unions have taken on this matter. What I am hoping the argument is leading to is that political action could continue to operate in the House and questions of wage increases will remain in the industrial field.
  Captain Hewitson: I thought I had made myself clear, but evidently I have not. I say again that it is the policy
  1486
  of the T.U.C. and the majority of the trade unions in this country to prevent as far as we possibly can any industrial stoppages organised against anything which may take place in the House. That is the stand we have taken. But we could reach a point where unofficial stoppages could overwhelm us. Pin-pricks here and there can do that, and this Budget has that tendency.
  If I may now turn to the tax on petrol and light hydrocarbon oils, I would point out that we have heard from hon. Members the effect that the increase will have on bus fares and transport. In the light hydrocarbon oils the 7½d. a gallon will have a terrific effect upon the paint industry of this country. This is where I come to the question asked by the right hon. Gentleman.
  The paint industry has a base rate of 123s. 6d., but the all-in rate, according to the Ministry of Labour figure, is 149s. 2d. That is the all-in rate, the average rate for the industry throughout the country. The average rate throughout the country does not come within the purview of taxation—they are not taxed, and therefore the tax reliefs offered by the Chancellor yesterday do not apply. Using the same calculation of a man, woman and two children as the average family, it leaves that worker approximately ld. an hour on his base rates worse off than he was. The 7½d. per gallon on light hydrocarbon oil means, spreading it over the wage bill, approximately 30s. to 35s. a week for every adult worker.
  If a trade union officer at this moment put in an application for 30s. a week increase to the paint industry, especially with the relations we have in that industry—they are of the highest order and have had a joint industrial council for 25 years—they would think that something had happened mentally to the trade union officer. But the Chancellor has put that on the industry.
  The price per gallon of paint will go up, and everything we export. The Chancellor may argue that on paint in bulk we get a rebate, but everything we export in machinery and manufactured goods is painted and there is no rebate on that. The extra cost per gallon will be on that and our export commodities will go up in price. The same will apply to

  1487
  the whole of the paint used in this country in building, engineering, motor car manufacturing, and everything where paint is used. It would not be out of place for the workmen in that industry to demand more wages. This argument can be put. If the Government can put this burden on this industry, then the men and women working in the industry are entitled to something from it in their wage packets. That will be an argument in this case, and that will be an argument by the whole of that range of lower paid workers.
  I have here a list of the wages councils of the 99 industries. In the case of 35 of them the present wages are less than£6 a week, and in the case of 12 of those they are less than 100s.—and the Chancellor talks about giving relief. He gives relief by putting 1½d. on a loaf of bread.
  In many of these industries there is no chance of working overtime; there is no chance of working piece-work; there is no chance of getting more than the basic rate that is being paid. I do not want to excuse my colleagues for what they did when they were in the Government. I have made this point before in this Chamber. This Chancellor and this Government have made the same mistake in respect of the lower grade workers as my right hon. Friends did in the two previous Governments. I do not want to be mealy-mouthed about that. That mistake has been made.
  I would suggest that between now and the time we finish the Finance Bill we find some means by which to give some relief to this great mass of lower-paid workers. Moreover, the same arguments can be made in respect of the old-age pensioners and other people whose incomes are on the lower grade. This is my reaction to this Budget: it has been a very orthodox Budget prepared by gentlemen in Whitehall; an orthodox Budget presented in an orthodox way by one who, I would say, is a backwoodsman with a mustard plaster mentality living in a pencillin age.
  8.57 p.m.
  Squadron Leader A. E. Cooper: I have listened with very considerable interest to the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Hull, Central (Captain Hewitson). He
  1488
  speaks for an industry with which I also am very closely concerned and, to a degree, I should like to reinforce what he has said.
  In the first place, I have never been able to understand why successive Chancellors of the Exchequer, whenever they have made an increase in petrol duty, should by the same token immediately increase the duty on light hydrocarbon oils. It has no basis in logic, but its effect on productive industry is very considerable. All that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said in connection with the paint industry is also true of the greater chemical industries, and this increased duty undoubtedly will have a serious effect upon our costs of everything in which these oils appear and which are to be exported.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman is at least consistent in that he made the same speech last year and the year before on this subject, but I am afraid that we have had a very great deal of synthetic indignation from other hon. Members on that side of the Committee today who, on the two previous occasions when increases such as this were made, made no protest whatsoever. Increases in petrol duty were allowed to go quite unchallenged by hon. Gentlemen opposite when they formed the Government, and it really will not do for them to come to this Committee on this occasion this year to make their protests when they should have taken action themselves at least two years ago.
  They should remember also that the further imposts it has been necessary for my right hon. Friend to make this year are very largely the result of the mismanagement of the past six years, and hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite will not be able to ride that one off. We have had a great deal of nonsense talked by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, especially by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), on this question of food subsidies and broken Tory promises.
  Let us see just how far the Tories have broken their promises. In 1950 we published a document called "This Is The Road," upon which the Conservative Party fought that General Election, and in which we said quite frankly:
  "In any approach to the problem of food subsidies made necessary by the urgent need to improve the purchasing power of the£we shall be borne by this pledge: There will

  1489
  be no reduction which might influence the price of food without compensating increases to those most affected."
  We then went on to say:
  "These compensations will take the form on the one hand of larger family allowances, pensions and other social benefits, and on the other of reductions of taxation, direct and indirect, that will increase incentives among the mass of the people."
  Maybe hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite do not bother to read Conservative Party manifestos, but if they do not it ill-becomes them to come here and accuse us of broken pledges.
  Mr. Wilfred Fienburgh: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman care to list the reductions in indirect taxation which will operate under this Budget?
  Squadron Leader Cooper: That is a fatuous interjection. The Conservative Party have formed the Government of this country for about 19 weeks. There will not be a General Election for about five years, and I suggest that he asks that question nearer to that day.
  Now let us come to the General Election of 1951.
  Mr. Norman Dodds: When Lord Woolton said it.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: This is the popular edition—
  Mr. Dodds: It is not popular now.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: It was popular enough to get us into power.
  Mr. Shurmer: The Liberal Party got the Tories into power.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: Whatever the reason, and however unhappy hon. Members opposite may feel, they should remember that we are sitting on this side of the Committee now.
  The popular edition was called "What The Conservatives Will Do." It was published in many millions and circulated to constituencies all over the country. In dealing with food subsidies it finished by saying:
  "Later we hope to simplify the system and by increases in family allowances, taxation changes and other methods, to ensure that public money is spent on those who need help and not, as at present, upon all classes indiscriminately."
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  Is there anything wrong in that? We are accused by the party opposite of promising the world, of promising a Utopia. We concluded this document by saying:
  "There in outline is our programme. The Conservative Party offers no short cuts to prosperity or comfort. We tell the country plainly that hard work and sacrifices all round are needed. What we do promise is that we shall clear up the legacy of muddle left by the Socialists and make work and effort more possible and more worthwhile."
  Mr. Douglas Jay rose—
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The right hon. Gentleman will be intervening in a moment, and he may not like the answer I may give to the point I believe he wants to put.
  Let us see how well right hon. Gentlemen opposite dealt with the problem of food subsidies themselves when they were the Government of the country. In 1948–49 subsidies had risen to the figure of£485 million, which was equivalent to nearly half the total Government expenditure in 1938–39. In 1949–50 subsidies would have risen still further to£568 million if Sir Stafford Cripps had not limited them to the ceiling of£465 million. In the following year Sir Stafford Cripps reduced the ceiling again to£410 million. In other words, the late Socialist Government reduced food subsidies in two years by no less than£158 million without any compensatory payments whatsoever.
  Mr. Jay: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will now let me intervene, because his statements are entirely incorrect. The difference between the£465 million and the£410 million was not in food subsidies proper but in fertiliser subsidies and various other supplementary subsidies of that kind. I wanted to ask this question. I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman will agree that Lord Woolton is a most important member of the Tory Party. Would he, therefore, also read out what Lord Woolton said in his very important election broadcast?
  Squadron Leader Cooper: May I say to the right hon. Gentleman that£410 million was the total figure of food subsidies put into the national Budget by Sir Stafford Cripps, and he cannot ride off that by saying that it was for this, that or the other. The figure was£410 million. The figure before that was£465 million, and there was a cut imposed by

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  the late Labour Government of£55 million, which was followed immediately by increased prices of many foods. So far as the famous broadcast is concerned, I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should read the whole of the broadcast and study the Conservative Party manifesto.
  I want now to say a few words in connection with petrol. I am very sorry that my right hon. Friend has found it necessary this year to raise the petrol duty again, and I think that regret is shared by many hon. Members. Those of us who represent London divisions have been impressed by the strength of public opinion on the recent increase in fares—not the fault of this Government but because of the faulty legislation of the Socialist Government—and I should like to put to my right hon. Friend a very serious suggestion on this matter.
  It may well be that he needs this extra money to assist in the fight against inflation. Perhaps it may be considered on analysis that the private motorist can support this extra 7½d., although it is a very great burden, and I suggest that the re-introduction of red petrol or some other means should be found to allow public transport to have petrol at a cheaper rate. I do not think that it would cost very much money, particularly when we are to have a fairly substantial surplus, but I think that it would be a step against possible further increases in fares, and I seriously ask my right hon. Friend to consider it.
  My final word is to reinforce that speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) on the subject of disability pensions. I think that this class of people has been very badly misused over the past six years. There are many anomalies in taxation problems in connection with war widows and so forth which, I think, demand the fullest investigation at this time. Having regard to the new climate which now exists in the Treasury, I hope that it may be found possible to bring about further radical changes which will be to the benefit of these people.
  9.8 p.m.
  Mr. James Simmons: I am sorry that the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) is no longer in the Chamber, because I feel
  1492
  constrained to say a few words in reply to some of the statements which he made during his speech. He went out of his way to be very nice to his Front Bench, after stressing the fact that he was going to make a non-political speech. In the same breath, he inferred that the 10s. increase in the basic pension more than compensates the 100 per cent. disabled men for the economic loss they will suffer as a result of the Budget.
  I am not altogether surprised, because I read a letter by the hon. Gentleman in the "Legion Journal" in which he made it clear that what he said as the President of the British Legion would not necessarily influence his action on the Floor of the House. He said:
  "The time may come when I may be a judge instead of an advocate, when the issue is voted upon in the House of Commons."
  He indicated that he might even be constrained in certain circumstances to vote against the Government if they refused to accept the plea for an increase in the basic pension.
  The British Legion has been campaigning, under the hon. Member's leadership, for a doubling of the basic pension of our disabled ex-Service men, of which I am one, in order to meet the existing economic situation. Yet that hon. Member now comes to the Committee and defends his Front Bench for having given a 10s. increase to meet this very grave and aggravated economic situation.
  Sir I. Fraser: I balanced what I said. I said that the increase was not adequate, but I also gave thanks where I thought thanks were due. The hon. Member was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions in the Labour Government and he will remember that I thanked at least four Socialist Ministers for giving about one-tenth or one-twentieth of what has now been given by the Budget.
  Mr. Simmons: I do not want to go into details about what the Labour Government did for the ex-Service men, because that would take far too long. However, the Labour Government did it for the ex-Service men who had the greatest need. Some hon. Members will be rather surprised to see what has actually been done in relation to the 10s. increase.
  Reading about the 10s. increase, the general public will think that the ex-Service man is beginning to live opu-

  1493
  lently. The truth is that out of 700,640 war pensioners only 51,517 will get the 10s. increase, 144,222 will get only 2s. a week, 235,888 will get only Is. a week, and 35,000—fewer than 20 per cent.—will get nothing.
  Yet all these ex-Service men will have to meet the increased food prices. They will also have to pay more to see their favourite football team—and they like to see a football match. As the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale knows, all these ex-Service men have to pay the National Health Service charges not only for themselves but also for their families, and the increased fares will particularly hit the badly disabled ex-Service men, except those who have cars as a result of the action of the Labour Government. The 10s. all-round increase takes no account of greatest need.
  A great opportunity has been missed because, as the result of reducing food subsidies, money was available for other purposes and war pensions could have been dealt with in a more comprehensive way. For instance, the gap between other ranks and officers could have been narrowed. After all, the limbs of a private soldier are as valuable as the limbs of an officer, and there is no case for a differentiation in the pension.
  It should be borne in mind that the Chancellor claims to have given£10 million, but£2,500,000 is the amount by which this year's pensions' Estimate has been reduced. That brings the£10 million down to£7½million. The old age pensioner and the limbless man of over 50 years of age would have some consideration if this matter had been left to a Minister of Pensions with a policy to meet the needs of the people for whom he is responsible.
  I myself have been minus a limb for many years past. In the early days I laughed at it and got about quite easily, but 34 years of putting the weight of the body on to the one sound limb has made it an unsound limb. There is a case for an increase in the pension of the limbless ex-Service man over the age of 50. I was told by the Minister only this week that it would cost only£1,115,000 a year. I feel that the 10s. increase on the basic rate of pension was just the easiest way out of dealing with the problem and the flashiest way of throwing a sop to the ex-Service man.
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  What I am concerned about is what the Legion will think about its President, who in this Committee gives support to these proposals while his demands in the country have been so much in excess of it. I cannot let pass the statement made by the hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, South (Squadron Leader Cooper), who condemned the treatment of ex-Service men by the Ministry of Pensions during the past six years. I had the honour and privilege of serving in the Ministry as Parliamentary Secretary for nearly three years. The hon. and gallant Member talked about a new and fresh wind blowing through the Treasury. I found a new and fresh wind blowing through the Ministry of Pensions from the time that the Labour Government took over control.
  Squadron Leader Cooper: The hon. Member, I know, was a Minister in the Ministry of Pensions in the last Government. He had a case of mine of a man who still has shrapnel in his buttocks from World War I. He had reached the age of 60 and his general health was failing in direct consequence. The Ministry for which the hon. Member was responsible would not give that man any pension, saying his complaint was due to advancing years. The shrapnel is still there.
  Mr. Simmons: I promised I would sit down at 9.20, and if we are going to go into individual cases I may very well exceed that time. The hon. and gallant Member should know that the Minister of Pensions is bound by the advice of his medical officers, and the medical officer is far better able to judge the condition of a man than a Member of Parliament or even the man himself.
  I must say a final word about the general position. This is a clever Budget in the political sense. It is a "Spot the pea-under-the-thimble" and "Find-the-lady" Budget. But many of those who are busy counting their gains will get a crack on the skull before they have finished. It is a delayed-action bomb Budget. While dancing over the economic minefield, rejoicing in increased pensions and Income Tax rebates, the revellers are likely to step on many unperceived booby traps. Some may not explode until May or June when the local elections are held. The spiv is clever, but no housewife will buy laddered nylons from the same one twice.
  9.20 p.m.
  The Minister of State for Economic Affairs (Sir Arthur Salter): We are only about half way through this debate, but what is presumably the main criticism of the Opposition has been deployed this afternoon in the weighty speech of the former Chancellor of the Exchequer. I propose to deal as far as I can with some of his principal points. Many important and interesting questions have been raised in other speeches, and I hope they will be dealt with tomorrow and on Monday. In the meantime, I shall turn principally to what the right hon. Gentleman said this afternoon.
  I shall not be able to answer all his questions. It takes much less time to ask questions than it does to answer them. Moreover, I cannot dispose of as much time this evening as the right hon. Gentleman did this afternoon. For that reason, as I cannot cover all his questions, I must, before setting out to sea, lighten the ship of some of its load.
  Mr. James Hudson: Get rid of the pilot.
  Sir A. Salter: The late Chancellor asked questions about the plan drawn up at the Commonwealth Finance Ministers' Conference, covering, as it did, all sorts of questions as to the present and prospective pattern of trade. They will be dealt with tomorrow by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. He will also deal with the questions, equally specific and penetrating, asked about the Purchase Tax and the "D" scheme. In the third place, questions with regard to cuts in civil expenditure will be dealt with later in the debate.
  I now come to the questions which, so far as time permits, I will try to deal with myself. The right hon. Gentleman asked me about the Excess Profits Levy and its probable effect upon reserves and undistributed profits. He addressed his question to me personally because he said that I had criticised previous proposals as to taxation of profits because of their effect on the reserves of companies. That is quite true, but I would point out two things.
  In the first place, when I was criticising the effect of certain taxes upon the reserves I was referring to taxation of all companies, whether they were more or less prosperous than in the past, whereas this Excess Profits Levy only takes a
  1496
  defined proportion of the excess profits in relation to a defined standard. In the second place, quite obviously, although the Excess Profits Levy will fall for technical reasons directly on the reserves, it must have an effect upon dividends and to that extent come out of the fund which would otherwise be devoted to paying dividends.
  In both those respects what I have said in the past has no reference to the particular question which the right hon. Gentleman raised today, but as he has asked me that question I would like to ask him his own attitude towards the Excess Profits Levy. Is he for it, or is he against it? Very prudently he prefaced his remarks by saying that he proposed to put them in an interrogatory form and not from the party point of view. However, he did not go very far with his discussion of that question because, as he rightly said, it does not very much affect the balance of revenue and expenditure with which we are now dealing because it is not contemplated that it will bring a substantial amount of revenue into this year's accounts. I will therefore pass from that subject to the next subject on which he asked me questions.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions about the change in the Bank rate. His questions were to some extent covered and answered by the interesting speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, West (Mr. Assheton), but I would like to add a little to what he had to say. The right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) asked what will be the effect of interest rates generally. Well, short-term rates are bound to rise to some extent. This is already reflected in the buying rate for prime bank bills which has risen by 1½per cent. to 3 per cent. and in the deposit rate which the clearing banks pay for money; this has already gone up from 1½per cent. to 2 per cent. I expect the Treasury bill rate will rise sympathetically, but obviously it is quite impossible to say at what level the tender rate will eventually settle down. But too much should not be made of this point.
  The disadvantage of the higher borrowing rate for the Government will, in our view, in the end be more than offset by its counter-inflationary effect and by the general benefit to the economy which will result from a more realistic monetary policy.
  Mr. Hugh Dalton: Is the right hon. Gentleman able to give us any estimate as to the extent to which the rise in the Bank rate will raise the total of the service of the floating debt?
  Sir A. Salter: No, Sir. For the reason I have just mentioned, we do not know at present at what rate the tenders will settle down. But we have a large surplus which we are devoting to ensuring a counter-inflationary effect and we are convinced that the counter-inflationary effect of a rise in the Bank rate will give much better value for money than the use of the same amount of a surplus for that purpose. That is why we think, as I say, that we shall get a much greater benefit than its cost from this act of policy. It will give us the benefit of a more realistic monetary policy, particularly from a closer appreciation by everybody of the vital question of costs and prices.
  As regards the long-term rate, the effect is even more difficult to predict with any precision at this stage. Initially the market has today sagged somewhat.
  Mr. Dalton: It has sagged ever since the party of the right hon. Gentleman came into office.
  Sir A. Salter: Not only since we came in. I do not know whether the Committee has in mind the rate of "Daltons," as they are called, which sagged long before we came in. Initially the market has sagged somewhat, but I do not think this need be regarded as more than a preliminary adjustment of prices. It is not necessarily an indication of the level at which market prices would settle down. It is therefore too early to say anything about the rate at which the Government will itself lend.
  There is, I suggest, some danger that if we persue these isolated aspects of the increase in the Bank rate we shall lose sight of the real purpose of the operation as a whole.
  Mr. Jay: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can answer a very specific question which my right hon. Friend put today; that if there is a further rise in the Public Works Loan Board rate as a result of this latest change, will there be compensating increases in the housing subsidy, as there have been in the previous Budgets? That is quite a precise and simple question.
  Sir A. Salter: It is a contingent and conditional question. It is, as I said, too early to estimate the rate at which long-term lending will eventually reach its level. It is even more premature to make estimates as to what we should do in different possible contingencies.—[Interruption.] I must continue my argument. It is an integral part of our strategy to deal with the balance of payments by establishing a realistic credit policy in our domestic affairs. In particular, it should induce a more cautious approach to the financing of capital investment—including unnecessarily large stocks—on the part of everybody; and it should, therefore, reinforce the other steps towards the same objective of reducing demand for investment goods at home and thereby freeing for export a greater proportion of the output of those goods.
  The use of the Bank rate has been criticised as indiscriminate in its effect. But, as my right hon. Friend said yesterday, efforts to use the other methods have failed for a long period against the overwhelming monetary demand. The result of dearer money is that the industrialist who is doubtful of being able to "carry" it in his costs draws back. This relieves the pressure upon the order books of firms making capital goods. Delivery date is not less important than price for an expansion of exports. It is here that marginal investment is squeezed out. There is undoubtedly, especially in plant and machinery, a good deal of "speculative investment" and also investment which, though useful, is not immediately necessary for the efficiency of production. These types of investment will be checked, and ought to be checked. The resources which they are monopolising are peculiarly suitable for an early expansion of export of investment goods.
  Before I pass from the question of the Bank rate I should like to remind the Committee of the assurance given by my right hon. Friend yesterday. He said:
  "I would console the Committee by reminding them that the Bank rate is a flexible instrument, and I give this assurance it will be watched to ensure that its operation brings about conditions helpful to the strength of our economy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 1285.]
  That is all I am able to say on the subject of the Bank rate at this moment.
  I should like to turn to one or two questions the right hon. Gentleman asked

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  where he has been unable to understand some of the figures that we put before the Committee. He asked, in the first place, about the relation between the total of£600 million for the successive cuts in imports which have been announced—£350 million in November,£150 million in January and£100 million announced yesterday—and the fall in imports of about 10 per cent., or a little over£300 million. The answer to that is quite simple. The£600 million is the reduction on the programmes of imports as we were confronted with them when we came into office. The 10 per cent., or over£300 million, is an economy by comparison with the imports in the year 1951 as a whole. That does not mean that there is anything unreal about the£600 million reduction, because in the latter part of 1951 the rate of imports had risen approximately to the same level as the new programmes.
  The second point about which he had some difficulty was the reduction in investment. If he will study the Chancellor's speech he will see that we have a fall of over£150 million in the rate of stock-building of imported commodities. That is not a fall of that amount in our stocks. It is a fall by comparison with the stock-building of last year. In addition, there is a further fall of at least£100 million in fixed investment and stockbuilding of home-produced goods combined. The total fall in investments of all kinds is, therefore, over£250 million. That was the figure for which the right hon. Gentleman was asking.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to make some complaint against my right hon. Friend for not having been rather more precise in detail in the particular items in his assessment of the prospective distribution of our economic resources. I think myself that my right hon. Friend was extremely wise not to be so detailed and so dogmatic in his assessment of particular economic developments as his predecessors have been in the past. I think we have had too many definite and dogmatic prophecies in Economic Surveys and in Budget speeches—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: And in election promises.
  Sir A. Salter:—which, in the event, have almost invariably been falsified. By comparison with that, my right hon.
  1500
  Friend was much more cautious, and, in particular, I think it is well to recall, seeing that there has been a great deal of publicity about it, what he really said about the prospective level of civilian consumption. What he said exactly was this:
  "We must work for an increase in the volume"—
  that is, in the volume of production—
  "of about the same or more than last year"—
  that is,£250 million. Then, later on, he said:
  "It follows that even if we attain the same increase in production as last year no more than the same amount of resources as last year can be spared for the ordinary civil consumer at home."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c 1283 and 1285.]
  Well, that is a conditional statement about a maximum which is very different from an unconditional prophecy of a future fact. I think my right hon. Friend was very wise and prudent in making his statement in that form, and, if I wanted to be confirmed in my view that more dogmatic and definite statements are unwise, I could not do better than go back to the former Chancellor's Budget Statement of April last. I am the more entitled to recall this, because of the comments I made at the time in the same debate.
  The Committee will remember the way in which the right hon. Gentleman built up a rather elaborate series of different items in a total estimate of£150 million of what he called the inflationary gap. Commenting on that, almost immediately after, I pointed out that quite obviously neither he nor I nor anyone else could be sure within a wide margin of error of the accuracy of each of the large number of items which added up to that convenient total. I expressed the opinion that he had probably jumped at what he thought was the total extra tax he could impose, and, having arrived at a figure of£150 million, he added up particular items in such a way as they conveniently totted up to that total. I believe that was true.
  I also said that I was not prepared to say that the amount of inflation in 1951 would be very different to the amount which he expected because I thought that his mistakes in one direction would very likely be cancelled out by two mistakes in another direction. I said, for example,

  1501
  that we should develop a greater overseas deficit than he had reckoned on and a slower rate of re-armament. Later, we saw that both these expectations were unhappily, only too true.
  Indeed, if we look back at the right hon. Gentleman's prophecies, we find that in practically every major item he was not only wrong, but widely wrong. I will give only two major instances. I had said that I expected the overseas deficit would be greater than the amount he had calculated, which was about£100 million. It was, in fact, over£500 million. And when he came to calculate his Budget surplus, he reckoned on an abovethe-line surplus of£39 million. It was, in fact,£360 million. These are only two instances of the extremely dangerous method of purporting to reach a precise policy by arithmetical conclusions from the addition of a number of separate items, hardly any one of which, in the nature of the case, can be even approximately accurate.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Does that argument mean that the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that no estimating of any kind should ever be done?
  Sir A. Salter: No, Sir. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman exactly what I think we should do and have done. I think we should fortify our minds by carefully considering every relevant argument and factor. Having done that, we should then arrive at our conclusion, as my right hon. Friend said, as an act of judgment. That is what we have done, and that is why, I think wisely, we have not been more dogmatic and definite in these particular figures.
  These are some of the main points to which I wish to give some kind of answer to the right hon. Gentleman. There is one other important question to which I will refer a little later—the balance between the burdens and reliefs proposed in this Budget. I think these and the other particular points to which I have referred are best set against the background of the Government's general policy. The Budget supplements the emergency action already taken to deal with the balance of payments crisis. It is, of course, this crisis which now dominates the whole situation.
  The Committee will recall the£350 million programme of cuts in November,
  1502
  the further£150 million as part of the Commonwealth Finance Ministers' plan in January, and the further£100 million announced yesterday to which I have already referred. These measures, though the actual cuts operative this year are only a little over half by comparison with 1951 as a whole, are bound, of course, to cause hardship and loss and to aggravate the problem of domestic inflation.
  No one who considers the facts given by the Chancellor yesterday can doubt that these cuts are necessary, but we should not underrate either the hardship or the loss, or the restriction of external trade which they must involve. It is well, I think, that as these effects become evident in the months to come, we should all realise what would have happened if this action had not been taken and if the deficit in our balance of payments and the drain on our reserves had continued as in recent months and if the situation had been allowed to drift.
  It is easier to discuss this now because we have taken measures to see that the situation will not be allowed to drift. Had it been allowed to drift, our reserves would have been exhausted in a very short time. We no longer have Marshall Aid to bridge the gap between what we earn and what we spend. We might in that case not have been able to buy enough food for bare sustenance or enough raw materials to keep our factories working fully. There would then have been extending—and rapidly extending—areas of semi-starvation and of mass unemployment. That is by far the greatest danger of large-scale unemployment which has menaced this country in recent years; that is what we are preventing by these austere emergency cuts and the other measures which have been explaind to the Committee.
  None of us believes for a moment that the real and permanent solution of our problem is to be found in austerity and restrictions. It must be found in increased production and exports—in expansion. But in a crisis' such as we now have it is only cuts and restrictions which operate quickly enough. It is only the first chapter. Yesterday's announcement with its new cuts added another page to that chapter. But it also opened the next and more hopeful chapter of increased production and exports encouraged by new incentives.

  1503
  The real answer, in the long run, to the balance of payments difficulty is not to cut out imports, but so to purge and strengthen our economy that it keeps in balance of itself. The first conditions of raising our exports to a level at which they will pay for our essential imports is to arrest inflation, to prevent an easy and soft home market from absorbing an undue proportion of our resources, and allowing prices to rise too high to meet external competition. That is the inescapable relation between the internal and the external economy. There never was a country less capable of basing its policy on a close economy and living as an isolated and insulated community than this little congested Island of 50 million with few raw materials, except coal, and not more than about half the food we need to feed our population.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: If the right hon. Gentleman is now saying that the great virtue of this Budget is the remarkable change from the soft economy left by the Labour Government to a new purged economy, as I think the phrase is, will he explain how that is achieved by a Budget, the effect of which is to give away£28 million?
  Sir A. Salter: I will answer that in a moment. The Budget represents the internal aspect of our policy in this problem. Its leading ideas may be simply stated. The surplus, as estimated before yesterday is left, with a very small subtraction, to counter inflation. The new revenue this year from new taxation and savings through the reduction of the food subsidies are all devoted to relieving the worst hardships and injustices that have arisen with inflation and rising prices and to providing incentive tax concessions to workers.
  Here are the two aspects of the Budget. I should like to comment first on the use of the surplus in relation to inflation. Is it necessary and is it sufficient? And here I will answer the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Jenkins). Some will perhaps say that, after having surrendered in this current year a realised surplus of between£300 million and£400 million for the extinction of debt, we might have used at least a substantial part of this anticipated surplus of over£500 million to relieve a people burdened both by excessive taxation and the higher cost of living.
  1504
  I would ask such critics to remember that all the new measures we are necessarily taking to deal with the balance of payments crisis—the reduction in imports and the increase in exports—are of course inflationary in effect because they reduce what is available for consumption without a corresponding reduction in spending power. This is an additional factor to the inflation arising from increases in wages and incomes over production and an excess of investment over savings. I do not think that it can be reasonably contended that it was not necessary to do as much as we are doing to counter inflation. We should have betrayed our trust if we had squandered our surplus.
  But is what we have done sufficient? Should we, as some have urged, have increased the surplus by net additions to revenue as well as by economies? I would ask such critics to consider the following points in their cumulative effect.
  We are leaving the surplus practically intact. Indeed, if we make some allowance, as we might reasonably do, for the considerable deflationary impact on industries this year of the£100 million contemplated next year from the Excess Profits Levy and the Profits Tax we might be said to be in effect even adding to the surplus which acts as a counter-inflationary force.
  The surplus is£538 million above the line on a conventional basis. This compares with£39 million budgeted for last April. The above the line surplus is£687 million under the alternative classification introduced in 1948 by Sir Stafford Cripps to distinguish more accurately between current and capital items. But what is more striking, there is a small surplus even of all receipts over all outgoings, capital and current alike. This contrasts with a deficit in last year's Budget of£457 million.
  Next there is a cut in civil expenditure, about which questions have been asked of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. That will be dealt with later in this debate. But there is a cut, a definite cut, even in terms of money in spite of higher prices. This means that over the whole of this range we are more than absorbing inflation. Then there is the cutting down of civil investment, partly by physical allocation and partly by financial measures, to an estimated extent of£100 million in real terms. In this

  1505
  connection a very important factor is the increase in the Bank rate from 2½per cent. to 4 per cent. to which I have already referred.
  The same critics should also remember that in deciding to give incentive tax reliefs in the lower brackets we have not, 'heavily taxed as we are, hesitated to impose extra taxes to provide the means.
  Mr. Donald Chapman: What about those who are not paying tax?
  Sir A. Salter: It should also not be forgotten that the real weight of taxation is increased without change in the rates by the effect of higher prices; because a man whose income only rises in proportion to increased costs comes into a higher income bracket. A substantial part of the concessions we are making on the lower income ranges is to correct this injustice. We must further remember that we are now in a condition which is not one of pure and unmixed inflation. We have inflation in large parts of the economy, side by side with large patches of deflation in some other parts. Moreover, some of the action taken by Commonwealth countries to correct their own balance—such as Australia's restriction on imports from us—will be deflationary in their effect here.
  Lastly, the whole tenor and purpose of the changes in taxation and expenditure is to give new incentives to effort instead of subsidies to rich and poor alike, which disguise the real cost of expensive imports from abroad. In a word, we are making economic motives and inducements the servants and allies of public policy and the public interest, instead of their enemies.
  For those reasons, I think it can be justly claimed that if what we have done about the surplus is necessary it is also sufficient. The right hon. Member for Leeds, South, said that there was a curious contrast between the first part and the last part of the speech of my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor. He said that the first part was very grave—and I gathered that he agreed with the gravity of the situation which was described—and he suggested that at the end the Budget was rather soft. I should like to know what are the views of the right hon. Gentleman and his party. Is this Budget too tough, or is it too soft?
  1506
  Having accused my right hon. Friend of an inconsistency the right hon. Gentleman was guilty of a much greater inconsistency himself. He said that we could have given our concessions without reducing the food subsidies. I do not know how he was going to make up his sum, unless he took a great deal from the surplus and so made the Budget softer.
  Mr. Jay: The right hon. Gentleman has issued a challenge. We see no reason for the giving of tax relief of£50 a year to a Surtax payer living wholly on investment income. Will he tell us, on the grounds of incentive and the checking of purchasing power, what is the purpose of that bonus to the Surtax payer?
  Sir A. Salter: I will come to that in one moment. We have given no relief whatever in relation to Surtax. All the relief is to the lowest slice of income, which is common to all.
  Mr. Jay rose—
  Sir A. Salter: I am sorry, I cannot give way again. Incidentally, the Surtax payer, in addition to having what I explained just now as an automatic increase in the real weight of taxation without change in his real income status, has that a second time over in the Surtax rates, and we have given no relief whatever for that.
  I turn now to the question—
  Mr. R. Jenkins rose—
  Sir A. Salter: No, I am sorry, I cannot give way any more. I now turn to the question of the reduction in the food subsidies and the reliefs from taxation, about which the right hon. Gentleman made so much play. He accused the Chancellor of sleight of hand in presenting his case on this question but I believe the Committee did not fail to notice at the time that the right hon. Gentleman really was guilty of rather more of what he accused my right hon. Friend of. In the first place, he made this very grave error. If we follow all his calculations we find he has forgotten the family allowances.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: Which are subject to tax.
  Sir A. Salter: He has forgotten the family allowances. In the second place—and here I think the mistake was excus-

  1507
  able, but it was a mistake—he did not realise how the 1s. 6d. increase in food prices to which the Chancellor referred covered also the rise in prices outside the effect of the reduction in the food subsidies—that is to say, there would have been about 3½d. to have been added even if we had kept the ceiling exactly where it was at£410 million. The increase that is due to the reduction of the ceiling to£250 million is equivalent not to Is. 6d. per head per week but to 1s. 2½d.
  Mr. Jay: It must be 1s. 8½d.
  Sir A. Salter: No. Those two errors in fact falsify all the right hon. Gentleman's calculations and for that reason I do not propose to follow them further. I do not pretend that there are no workers whatever who would not pay slightly more in increased prices of foods than they would get in the form of reliefs of taxation—
  Mr. H. A. Price: Including old-age pensioners?
  Sir A. Salter: But judging these proposals we must in fairness look at them as a whole. Let us see what we have done. We have brought in£160 million from food subsidies,£66 million from an increase of petrol tax and£10 million from increased postal charges. We have devoted£80 million to improving the social services and£180 million has been given in Income Tax relief, to the increase in the personal allowance which benefits primarily those at the bottom of the scale and increases in the earned income relief and in the graduation—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order. The right hon. Gentleman has several times said that he has no time to reply to questions. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman to continue his speech tomorrow as there is plenty of time?
  The Chairman (Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew): This debate continues tomorrow and on Monday.
  Sir A. Salter: Let me just say—
  Mr. Hughes: Do not be a coward.
  Sir A. Salter: If this Budget distribution fails in strict justice in any respect it is that whereas we have drawn the
  1508
  resources from all classes of the community we have not, as I confess I wish we could have afforded to do, carried the earned income relief well into the professional and managerial classes.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  The Chairman: If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, hon. Members must resume their seats.
  Sir A. Salter: In conclusion, this Budget is, I believe, just. It is a courageous Budget and an incentive Budget and, as my right hon. Friend said yesterday, it has the inestimable advantage of combining both realism and hope.
  Chairman to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again—[Mr. Oakshott.]
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS (PRAYERS)
  10.0 p.m.
  Sir Herbert Williams: On a point of order. Do I understand, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that you are not calling the Prayer in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell)?—
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Bakehouses (Sunday before Christmas) Order, 1951 (S.I. 1951, No. 2062), dated 28th November, 1951, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th November, 1951, be annulled.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew): Both that Prayer and the other in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) relating to the Telephone Regulations are out of order.
  Sir H. Williams: This particular Order about the bakehouses, under the Act under which it is made, is prayable against within a certain number of days, and that number of days ends tonight. This Order is the subject of a Report of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments appointed by this House to examine this Order, and the Select Committee did not report until 4th February. The Order was made when the House was in Recess, and, therefore, there was no opportunity of praying against it during the period when it was open to

  1509
  Prayer before it became operative. I know very well that its operative effect came to an end on 23rd December.
  The Select Committee has reported that it was possibly improperly made, and the purpose of the Prayer is to raise the constitutional question whether the Order was properly made, and though the Prayer tonight would be without effect so far as the Order is concerned, it does seem to me in order to discuss whether those who made the Order acted constitutionally, in an improper way or not, because next year there may be a similar Order made.
  Therefore, we are seeking to raise a constitutional issue, and I do not see how an Order that is prayable against under the Statute can be ruled out of order merely because its operative effect is past. It seems quite absurd to have a Select Committee of this House, with grave responsibilities, presenting this document to us if we cannot discuss it. The Report was ordered to be printed on 4th February. The Committee reported that,
  "The special attention of the House should be drawn to it on the ground that it appears to make an unusual or unexpected use of the powers conferred by the Statute under which it was made."
  If we cannot discuss an Order on which our colleagues on this Committee have made a special report, it seems to me the Committee may just as well be dissolved, because what is at issue is not the merits of the Order but the constitutional propriety, and whether the Order was properly made or not.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have not here the terms of reference of the Committee and the hon. Gentleman has, but I think he will see that every Order which is laid in this House and can be prayed against must be examined by that Select Committee. With regard to the annulment of that Order, as it has ceased to have effect, there seems to be no point in its being prayed against, because it is valueless now. It died before Christmas.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: Further to that point of order. Do I understand, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, you are ruling out of order my Prayer?—
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Telephone Regulations, 1951 (S.I. 1951, No. 2075), dated 28th November, 1951, a copy of which was laid
  1510
  before this House on 30th November, be annulled.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am speaking of the Prayer relating to the bakehouses.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: Then I may reserve the right to ask about my Prayer later on?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Let us take one at a time.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: With great respect to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, may I suggest that it is an entirely novel doctrine to deprive this House of its constitutional right to pray against any Order that has been made? Surely it cannot be competent to deprive the House of that right merely because a particular Order has already taken effect? We have had that case before.
  This is a point to which the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments has expressly invited the attention of the House, and has done so on constitutional grounds. One of the grounds upon which the House has been invited to examine this Order is on grounds of impropriety. That being so, the reason I respectfully submit that the House is tonight entitled to discuss the Order is that the House can form an opinion whether the Order was properly made and whether this was a proper use of delegated legislation. Now that question arises regardless of the efficacy of the particular Order. What the Select Committee has said in its report to the House is that this Order, which purported to be made under the Defence Regulations, either ought not to have been made under those powers or could not have been made under those powers.
  It will be appreciated that this Order, which purports to relieve certain people from the operations of the Factories Act, is an attempted dispensation by the Executive of provisions of an Act of Parliament passed in 1937. If in 1937 Parliament had intended to give any Executive the power to dispense with the provisions of the Act, it would have done so, but it expressly did not do so.
  What the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments is therefore saying to the House is that for an executive Department in those circumstances to attempt to use provisions under the Defence Regulations is an abuse of those

  1511
  provisions and something the House ought to consider. It goes, not merely to the question whether this Order is right or not, but to the whole question of the use or abuse of powers given under Defence Regulations. I therefore submit, with great respect, that it will, in effect, be depriving the House of essential constitutional rights if the House is deprived of the opportunity of considering this tonight.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I disagree with the contention of the hon. Gentleman, who now occupies on the Select Committee the position which I occupied for many years. He will know that when discussing Orders in the Select Committee the conditions are different from here. Here we can discuss only the effect of the Order, and whether it was made under the Defence Regulation or whether it was not would not be in order on a Motion to annul the Order. I therefore think it is out of order to have the discussion he wants. In any case, as the Order is now inoperative it seems to me to be a waste of Parliamentary time to discuss it at all.
  Mr. David Renton: With great respect, Sir Charles, I wonder whether we might pursue this point, because it is not only of interest but of great importance, too. In view of the fact that people may be punished under the Order, which has ceased to have effect before it reaches this House for consideration, it may well become necessary, if the Order is invalid for any reason, for the House to consider the matter in spite of the fact that it has expired, so that people who have been punished under it may in some way receive recompense, or whatever it may be, or the quashing of any conviction.
  If the House is precluded from examining the point and from praying to Her Majesty that the Order may be annulled, people who have been wrongly punished may remain wrongly punished.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is on the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, too, and he ought to know perfectly well that if an Order is annulled it is without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under the Order.
  Mr. Geoffrey Bing: Surely the issue is this. Though this may refer to the Sunday before Christmas, it may well be that for an offence committed under this Order on the Sunday before Christmas somebody might be subject to proceedings which are proceeding at this moment in relation to this Order. Therefore, the fact that it refers to a date which is already past does not mean that the force of the Order is necessarily spent. Under these circumstances, I would respectfully suggest that the House is entitled to consider whether the Order was properly made or not.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Hon. Members are not going to get the opportunity of doing so. There may be some argument against the Defence Regulations under which the Order was made, but the Order was in order, although the method of making it may or may not be liked by the House.
  Sir H. Williams: What we want to discuss, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, is whether the Order was properly made. If it was not properly made, then a Bill of indemnity may be required, and until the House has decided whether the Order was properly made we do not know whether an indemnity Bill is required. In the last Parliament, I was successful in bringing about a Bill of indemnity, as the former Home Secretary knows very well, and the fact that this Order only operated for a few hours on the 23rd December cannot deprive this House of the right conferred upon it by statute, namely, the right to debate this Prayer until midnight.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Select Committee's objection was to the method by which the Order was made under the Defence Regulations for use during the war. The House may not agree about that method, but supposing that we were to have a discussion on the annulment of the Prayer, a discussion on that point would be out of order anyway and could not be allowed, so we would be no further on.
  Mr. Ede: With great respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, it seems to me that they did not deal with this question. This is not a Prayer by the Committee. This is a Prayer by certain hon. Members, some of whom may happen to be members of the Committee, but

  1513
  it would be perfectly proper for any number of hon. Members not members of the Committee at all, and not including a single member of the Committee, to put this Prayer on the Order Paper for reasons which, with all respect, the Chair could not know until they began to advance their arguments to the Chair. Therefore, until that stage is reached, I should not have thought that this could be ruled out of order.
  May I put this further point to you, Sir, in view of the general nature of the Ruling you have given? It seems to me that if such a Ruling were in fact upheld, it might have the disastrous effect, to my mind, of having a conflict between Parliament and the courts, because it is quite open to any citizen to plead in the courts that this Order is improper and invalid owing to some technicality of Parliament, and it seems to me that we should be reduced to a state of great absurdity and might get involved in a conflict with the courts, which I understand it has always been the desire of Parliament to avoid, if it could be held that we had been precluded from raising points that might be successfully taken in a court of law, if the validity of the Order were there contested.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Of course, any Member can put down a Prayer, whether he is a Member of the Select Committee or not. The point, I gather, from the Select Committee's Report was the method of making the Order, and they thought that a more desirable way could be found. But that would not arise on the annulment of the Order. The material in the Order is all that can be discussed on the Motion to annul it. As the Order has ceased to function now, it would be really a waste of Parliamentary time to discuss a thing which is now dead.
  Mr. Ede: We might, with respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, be in an anomalous position as a result of that Ruling. The proper authority might make an Order during a Recess to cover some short period that is wholly within the Recess, and then when the House resumes hon. Members would not be entitled to pray against it, although they might object to all sorts of things with regard to the Order, because it had expired by the time the House first met after the Order had been made. I would suggest, Sir, that
  1514
  that would be the consequence of the Ruling which has just been given, which the House would find it very difficult to contemplate.
  10.15 p.m.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is quite true. The right hon. Gentleman will remember very well the Fire Orders which were made by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) when he was Home Secretary. We had to have an indemity Act afterwards because the Orders had not been correctly laid. That can easily be overcome; but the point which is now raised is not that one.
  Mr. Ede: With great respect to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I suggest that until we have heard what the mover of the Prayer has to say we cannot know what the arguments are that he wishes to adduce. It may very well be that even a member of the Select Committee has not exhausted all his objection to the Order in the Report which has been issued and he may still wish to adduce to the House and to the Chair arguments which are not included in the Committee's Report.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That may very well be true, but he can only discuss what is in the Order, and as what is in the Order has now ceased to exist no argument on the annulment would be in order.
  Sir H. Williams: The Order still exists and remains in force until midnight tonight, and therefore we are surely entitled to pray against it, because an Act of Parliament said that we are entitled to pray against these Orders. With great respect, I do not understand why the Chair can deprive the House of its statutory right, and that is the whole point. It may well be that the Order was invalid, and a debate tonight might prove that it was invalid. If it was invalid, what happens next?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is the very point that was made by the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). Hon. Members may remember the Fire Orders, to which I have referred, which were not properly laid during the war and there had to be an indemnifying Bill to put the mistake right.
  Mr. Bing: Are you now on the point of the second Prayer, Mr. Deputy-Speaker? Is that also not to be called?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Speaker will deal with that.
  Mr. Speaker: The Prayer in the name of the right hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) is out of time, more than 40 days having elapsed since the Order was laid.
  In this connection, I regret that the list of Statutory Instruments published by the House contains an error. The issue of 8th March shows this Order as having six days to run from that date wherein it could be prayed against, and that would make tomorrow the last day; but this is not so. The error seems to have arisen, I would tell the House, though I have not completed my inquiries into it yet, from a misunderstanding about our proceedings following the death of His late Majesty. The House sat from 6th to 11th February, Saturday and Sunday excepted. No business beyond the swearing in of Members and the receipt of messages of condolence from other Legislatures was transacted, and it seems to have been assumed that these days did not run for the purposes of the 40 days in which an Order can be prayed against.
  But, in fact, the Statute is quite clear on the point. No days are excepted by the Statute except days on which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or when both Houses are adjourned for more than four days, and during the period to which I have alluded Parliament was not adjourned for more than four days. Consequently, these days run, and that makes more than 40 days since the Order was laid.
  I deeply regret if hon. Members have been misled or put to inconvenience by this error, but the circumstances have, of course, been unusual. I am bound to rule, by the Statute, that the Prayer is out of time.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: I think it is extremely regrettable that this sort of thing should have occurred. I should like to point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that the list of Statutory Instruments which is published and which are supposed to guide Members laid down that this Order has six days further to go from 8th March. This document, which I presume
  1516
  has the authority of the House, enables us to move this Prayer tonight.
  I understand from your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, that this is in error, and it is an error that not only affects the Members of this House but everybody who is affected by the Regulations against which the Prayer has been made. It seems to me that not only are Members put in a difficulty, but all the citizens involved are being denied a right to which ordinarily they are entitled.
  I should like to put this to you, Mr. Speaker. This Prayer was put down before the death of His late Majesty. It seems to me that your Ruling deprives this House of rights that it was intended to have, and it denies to the nation a protection which the Legislature intended that they should have. While I am not questioning your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, in those circumstances it is of very great regret that this error should deprive this House of its rights and deprive the nation of the protection which it ought to have.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: May I urge one or two other considerations upon you, Mr. Speaker. You were good enough to say in the Ruling that you gave that you were bound by the Statute. May I, with great respect, submit that this House is the master of its own procedure. This particular Prayer has been upon the Order Paper for a long time, and all the Members who have put their names to it, as well as the Minister who is prepared to deal with it, came in the knowledge and belief that this would be dealt with in our proceedings today.
  These Telephone Regulations are of very great public importance. They, in fact, deal with the whole code by which the telephone system of the country is regulated under the provisions of the relevant Act. There are a large number of detailed provisions on which hon. Members want information, and on which I understand the Assistant Postmaster-General is anxious to give certain assurances.
  What is the position? It is that Members of the House on both sides, in reliance upon this document, which is the list of Statutory Instruments published week by week under the authority of the House and for the guidance of Members, expected that this very important matter could be discussed this evening, as I submit it still can be.

  1517
  May I with great respect urge this consideration upon you, Mr. Speaker, that the Statutory Instruments Act does not attempt to lay down any limitation on the procedure of the House? The Statute merely lays down that provided a Prayer is passed within a certain time, then it shall have such and such an effect. I would submit that nothing about the Act or anywhere else can deprive the House, if it so wishes, from discussing these Telephone Regulations, and I shall be interested to hear whether the Assistant Postmaster-General is anxious to discuss them or not. I believe he is.
  I would submit that the House is entitled to consider the Telephone Regulations regardless of what effect that will have on the question of their effect. Might I submit that the Statutory Insruments Act, 1946, Section 7 says.
  "In reckoning for the purposes of either of the last two foregoing sections any period of forty days, no account shall be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days."
  The Statute does not attempt to deal with the entirely unusual circumstances in which, between the demise of the late Monarch and the accession of the present Monarch, there were occasions, quite unusual in the history of the House, during which the House did not transact any business and on which it would have been quite improper and most unseemly to have attempted to consider Prayers for the annulment of a Statutory Instrument. It would have been contrary to the traditions and decencies of the House if, during those days when there were merely formal messages and the swearing in of Members, the House should have found it necessary to consider Prayers of the kind which the House is expected to consider tonight.
  I would urge upon you that the Act requires a construction which does not put the House in the unnecessary position of having to count among the 40 days those quite unsual and exceptional circumstances. If, as I understand, it is the desire of the House to consider this important matter tonight, on those grounds I hope that no obstacles will be placed in the way of our doing it.
  Mr. Bing: I am sorry that the Leader of the House and the Patronage Secretary should desire to take advantage of
  1518
  the demise of His late Majesty to secure a party advantage.
  Mr. Speaker: I merely alluded to that episode as possibly giving the explanation why there was a miscalculation of the date. Since we resumed on 19th February, there have been many days on which this Prayer could have been put down. I hope that the House will not make too much of that point.
  Mr. Bing: I appreciate that point perfectly. After all, that is a mistake in the Regulations, and it is sufficient for the Leader of the House to do something. This Order is exempted business and could be taken, if the Leader of the House should see fit to suspend the Rule so that it can be taken. If there is a mistake it is intolerable that the Leader of the House should refuse to suspend the Rule so that these matters can be discussed. We are in the position that 16 Prayers, in view of this mistake, will have to be set down on the Order Paper tomorrow. This means that the House will have to consider transport charges throughout the night, unless the Leader of the House is prepared to suspend the Rule now so that the House can discuss the charges at a proper hour.
  It is intolerable that the Leader of the House should take advantage of a mistake not to move a purely technical Motion to allow the House to discuss transport charges, increases in the price of food, and matters of that sort, and to use this mistake to blanket out hon. Members on this side of the House who have been unable to raise these matters before because of the Budget and the pressure of business. Instead of sitting there, the Leader of the House should not take advantage of a technicality of this sort but move a suspension of the Rule.
  The right hon. Gentleman is just saying, "No, we will take advantage of this sort of tiling." In my respectful submission that is a gross abuse of the procedure of the House. We have a few minutes left, and there is time for the Leader of the House to do the honest thing. I sit down to give him time to do it.
  10.30 p.m.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Harry Crookshank): No one is more jealous than I to see that the proper procedure of the House is carried out at all times. I am surprised that the hon. and learned

  1519
  Gentleman should raise this question, and I cannot understand the point of his diatribe. He has studied our procedure, and he should know that Prayers are exempted business. It has nothing to do with me or anybody else to extend the time tonight when hon. Gentlemen may put down a Prayer—
  Mr. Bing rose—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Crookshank:—and to try to accuse me of taking advantage of a technicality is monstrous.
  What has now occurred, as I understand it, is that you, Mr. Speaker, have given a Ruling which none of us can controvert without taking strong measures against yourself, which I hope that none of us will have occasion to do during your tenure of office. None of us can controvert your Ruling. You have said it is out of time, and there is nothing I or anybody else in this House can say that will deal with this problem. If hon. Gentlemen opposite like to controvert your Ruling that is between them and you, but it certainly is not between them and me.
  Mr. E. Fletcher rose—
  Mr. Crookshank: I am answering the speech of the hon. and learned Member. It is not for me to put down a Motion for the suspension of the Rule for Prayers. It is not necessary. If hon. Gentlemen put down Prayers, time will be found for Prayers. On this occasion, as on the occasions when we have had preliminary warnings through the usual channels that a particular day would suit hon. Members for a Prayer to be put down, we tried to facilitate Government business for that purpose. The right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) knows that that has been the practice we have tried to adopt during this Parliament.
  Unfortunately, on this occasion the Prayer put down has been ruled out of order by you, Sir, and, therefore, the question of debating the issue falls. But, of course, a general debate on the matters raised by this Prayer is another story. If hon. Members opposite wish to raise this or any other subject during the Session or in the immediate future they have days on which they select the business—
  Mr. Bing: Nonsense!
  Mr. Crookshank: It is no good saying, "Nonsense"—
  Mr. A. C. Manuel: What is the Leader of the House talking about?
  Mr. Crookshank: I am answering the hon. and learned Gentleman who made an attack on me. I am saying that if the contents of this Order is a matter of great importance to the Opposition—which is a matter of opinion—it is a well-known fact that the Opposition have certain facilities and certain days on which they can put down particular topics.
  But in view of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing more that I can say. If hon. Gentlemen opposite dislike your Ruling they have their remedy, but it is not a remedy against me.
  Mr. Speaker: I wonder if I can help to smooth this matter over a little, because it is quite clear from my own point of view, and, as has been put to me, the mistake in the list is serious, and I admit that it is.
  I would like to say that it is the responsibility of hon. Members who put down Prayers to comply with the Statute themselves. It is true that the accuracy of documents issued from this House is so great, and so few mistakes occur in them, that hon. Members rely on them to give them the number of days they have left. But that does not shift the statutory position from the hon. Member who wishes to pray from taking the 40 days which are allowed to him by the Statutory Instruments Act. The only exception in the Act are days on which Parliament is prorogued or dissolved, or days on which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days. That is the statutory position by which hon. Members are bound.
  In reply to the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher), who so eloquently reminded the House that it is master in its own house, I would point out that the House is bound by its own Statutes and cannot alter them without repealing them. I hope that in those circumstances the House will realise that I have no option under the Statute but to rule this Prayer out of time and, therefore, further discussion on it is out of order.
  Mr. Ede: I gather that hon. Members on both sides of the House were taken by surprise by the fact that there was a mistake in the documents which we come to rely on as accurate without ever going behind them ourselves. May I say that my hon. Friends and myself on this side of the House had been considering when we should put down this Prayer and certain other Prayers which, as a result of the Ruling you, Mr. Speaker, have given, will also be time-expired unless we can act very quickly?
  That may entail, after my experience of a year or so ago, some very great inconvenience to all of us. I am most anxious to avoid spending a whole night out of bed. I was brought up to pray before getting into bed, and that was at a time when my bed-time was about 6.30 p.m. and not 6.30 a.m.
  As I understand it, this is the position. Within the 40 days a Prayer is exempted business but, in this democratic State, this House can approach the Throne through other means than exempted business. A Prayer can be laid against an Order although the 40 days had expired, but we could not then claim it as exempted business. I have taken some trouble to be advised, and I understand that it would then become an ordinary Resolution of the House, and subject to the Ten o'clock Rule. That is to say, it cannot be taken after ten o'clock if it is opposed; but it is not uncommon for Motions to appear in the name of the Prime Minister, exempting from the Ten o'clock Rule certain named items on the Order Paper.
  I think my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) was suggesting that it might be for the convenience of all hon. Members, in order not merely to debate this particular Order, but some 12 or 14 others which now become time-expired for praying against by Friday night, if they were put down later. We did put some down for next Tuesday, and it would be quite intolerable that we should have to discuss as many Prayers as now appears likely tomorrow night if it could be arranged that there should be a suspension on one or two nights next week so that these Orders could be discussed at times more suitable than tomorrow.
  I would not have made this appeal had we got out of time by our own default. As you, Mr. Speaker, have said, documents submitted to this House
  1522
  are generally so accurate that one cannot complain of inconvenience caused by one slip which, in my experience of the House, is quite unprecedented; and I hope that some way can be found for discussing these matters without putting all of us to great inconvenience.
  Had we fallen out because we could not calculate 40 days, I should not have had the effrontery to ask for consideration, but a slip has occurred which has rather caught us out. We did not put down Prayers for earlier days of this week because we thought that prolonged praying was not likely, in a special week such as this, to be an effective aid to public business.
  Mr. Crookshank: May I say to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) that I appreciate just as much as anyone else that we have got into some difficulty owing to this unexpected result. This involves the prerogative of hon. Members opposite, or, indeed, any other hon. Gentlemen—it is not only the Opposition that is concerned. My hon. Friends, and particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams), have always been very scrupulous in examining these Orders and Regulations and they may very well get into some difficulty, though I do not know that as a fact.
  But I submit, it is not a matter we can discuss now across the Floor of the House or across the Table. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh!"] An hon. Member is so ebullient that it makes things very difficult. I was trying to answer the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields.
  I appreciate as much as anybody that the Prayers which are moved in this House frequently raise questions of general importance which it is of value to discuss. I am quite prepared to say, that if the right hon. Gentleman likes to have this matter discussed through the usual channels the Government will see in this particular case—it is only a particular case owing to miscalculation of the days, and never mind how it happened—whether anything should be done to try and meet the general convenience of the House, which is all I am concerned about.

  1523
  As I said earlier, some of these subjects might very well come up in a time at the disposal of the Opposition. [Interruption.] I think it was the right hon. Gentleman, who is leading the Opposition at the moment who appealed to me. The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that in this period between now and the end of the month we find ourselves, by Statute, in great difficulty owing to the fact that necessary finance business must be completed by dates over which none of us have control.
  During that period there will still be opportunities at the disposal of the Opposition and if there are major matters of importance they could bring them forward on those days. That might be part of the solution. If there are other ways which might be found after discussions I should be happy to have those discussions, not only with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields but also with some of my hon. Friends.
  We all recognise that, whatever the reason, we have been debarred tonight from pursuing these subjects; and apparently certain Prayers which the Opposition want to put down on Tuesday will be equally barred. I shall be glad, and I know my hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary will be glad, to have talks through the usual channels. But, of course, whatever form these debates take, in the nature of things they cannot be Prayers as Prayers cannot take place on these subjects because they are time-expired.
  I must again remind the House that we are strictly limited in the time at our disposal for the next fortnight owing to the 'statutory necessity of dealing with finance; but if something can be arranged I shall be very glad, as Leader of the House, to do what I can.
  Mr. Ede: I think the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House has met us quite well on the points we have raised and I have no doubt the Patronage Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. Whiteley) can have a conversation which I hope will enable the matter to be arranged satisfactorily. I would advise my hon. Friends that we should accept the right hon. Gentleman's gesture at the moment. After all, if it does not come off, or if it does not come
  1524
  off quite as well as we expected, we shall be seeing the Leader of the House for a long time.
  10.45 p.m.
  Mr. Crookshank: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but I would make this addendum: that my hon. Friends interested in this matter should have their case considered as well.
  Mr. E. Fletcher: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that this matter is urgent, and under your Ruling Mr. Speaker some 14 or 15 Prayers which otherwise would have been in time next week must now be taken tomorrow if they are to be taken in time. May I have the attention of the Leader of the House?
  Mr. Crookshank: I am listening.
  Mr. Fletcher: I am grateful to have the right hon. Gentleman's attention. May I have his assurance that some announcement will be made tomorrow, because we shall be put in the same difficulty tomorrow night to make sure we are in time?
  Mr. C. S. Taylor: There is one point which I think ought to be on record. This list of Statutory Instruments and duties has only been available to hon. Gentlemen for one or two years. In the old days we had to work out the dates ourselves by looking at the Instruments and working them out. This document was produced because some of my hon. Friends and I pressed for it for the convenience of the House. I would submit it has no official authority in the House, but is for the convenience of hon. Gentlemen. We all regret the mistakes contained in it. When we were running Prayers we had to work out the dates on which the Order or Regulation had to run, and work them out correctly.
  Mr. Bing rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman rise to the point of order?
  Mr. Bing: Yes, Sir. We on this side of the House accept your Ruling in this matter, but I wish to point out to you that there is no objection at any time in this House to a humble Address being presented to Her Majesty. The request from this side of the House is that the

  1525
  Leader of the House and the Patronage Secretary will be prepared to grant facilities for a Motion for such an Address to be moved. So long as 40 days are running there is a statutory obligation for time to be given, but once the period has elapsed the Motion becomes the same as any other Motion on the Order Paper, and the question is merely one of the Leader of the House promising to give facilities for such a Motion to be made.
  The point I tried to make earlier was that, in view of the mistake, which is not the fault of either side of the House, the Leader of the House should not take technical advantage of that, but should undertake to move the suspension of the Rule so that the Motion could be moved in the same circumstances as if the paper had been correct. That is the point I wish to put.
  Mr. Speaker: I would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to look again at Section 5 of the Statutory Instruments Act, 1946, in which, at first sight, it seems that Parliament has limited itself. I hope what has been said tonight will result in fruitful discussion, and that we may now pass from it.
  Sir H. Williams: Her Majesty is disabled by the terms of Section 5 from doing what hon. Gentlemen wish to be done. If the Government made a new Order slightly different in form, that would be the only solution.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: I want to raise a point about the Post Office Regulations, which are of considerable importance. As a result of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement, many of these Regulations are now wrong. Can you, Mr. Speaker, rule, or will you consider asking the Committee to consider, that in view of the alterations contemplated the whole of the Regulations should lie in abeyance until such time as the necessary alterations to the Regulations, or new Regulations, are introduced.
  Mr. Speaker: I have no knowledge of anything which transpires in the Committee of Ways and Means until it is reported to the House. I understand that there was a discussion of some sort yesterday on this matter. If I may say so, it seems highly probable that an amending Order may have to be laid, in which case we can deal with it.

  DISPOSAL OF UNCOLLECTED GOODS BILL
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  COMMONWEALTH TELECOMMUNICATIONS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Oakshott.]
  10.53 p.m.
  Mr. W. F. Deedes: My object tonight is to call attention, not for the first time, to certain dangers which are threatening our system of Commonwealth telecommunications. Perhaps I should say, on raising this matter for the second time, that I have no commercial interest in it. My sole interest is to see that the world's leading system of communications continues to hold the first place. Nor, I would suggest, are my motives tonight political.
  It is, I think, well known that all parties agreed in 1946 to the arrangements then made whereby the nationalisation, or perhaps I ought to say the internationalisation, of Cable and Wireless took place. To that agreed design completion was made in April, 1950, when Cable and Wireless assets, services and operative staffs were transferred to the General Post Office.
  I am not quarrelling with the politics of that decision, but only with some of the practical consequences. The matter has not worked out as it was hoped that it would, and there is now cause for a review, which I hope that the Assistant Postmaster General will undertake.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: On a point of order. I suggest that what the hon. Member is now putting forward involves legislation. It would involve the entire amendment of the Commonwealth Telecommunications Act; therefore, I submit that what the hon. Member suggests is out of order.
  Mr. Speaker: I regret that I had not heard that. I hope that the hon. Member will remember the rule about matters requiring legislation.
  Mr. Deedes: I have that point in mind, Mr. Speaker, and I will do my best to comply with that Standing Order.
  For a variety of reasons the users of Cable and Wireless in recent months have been given increasing grounds for dissatisfaction. Some have arisen from natural causes, some are beyond the control of the company, and some have been due to administration. In consequence, there has been an alarming tendency for customers, particularly in difficult periods, to shift traffic from Cable and Wireless to the American companies, the principal of which are Western Union and Commercial Union. The Australian Press and the Bradford wool traders have done so. Many commercial users also have done so, and in one or two cases large accounts are involved.
  Disquiet has been admitted. Difficulties arose shortly after the death of His late Majesty. It is true that between 6th February and 17th February some 800,000 words of Press traffic went over the system, although it is worth pointing out, I think, that due to commercial activity being stilled, the total increase came to only 4 per cent.
  That was not really an excuse for the appreciable breakdown in the system. In the present Commonwealth set-up it was clear in the Second World War that some Commonwealth countries resented the fact that the whole Commonwealth system was in the hands of a London trading company. Following an inquiry by Lord Reith, his findings became the basis of the 1946 scheme. Each self-governing country of the Commonwealth took into public ownership its own assets of the company. The break-up and the turnover were gradual and today the organisation has eight autonomous parts—Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Southern Rhodesia, Ceylon and ourselves.
  This change represents a microcosm of the historic changes which have occurred in Commonwealth relations in wider spheres since the war. Without ample Commonwealth consultations, which are outside the scope of the Assistant Postmaster-General, nothing of that can be changed and I am not pressing the hon. Gentleman on that aspect tonight. But I am stressing that it does contribute to our difficulties
  1528
  that there is no counterpart to the Chairman of Cable and Wireless from 1926 to 1946 and no central direction of the Commonwealth system. It has displayed certain weaknesses—there is a lack of flexibility and power to take hour-by-hour decisions which are vital to a competitive international system.
  I am concerned about the eighth terminal, which is our own. We must remember that we are still the nerve-centre of the system. It is worth stressing that a quarter of all the traffic which goes through are messages travelling from one part of the world to another—and the average value of these messages is 4s. 8d. each. It is, therefore, of obvious importance that this end should be above reproach. But it is far from being above reproach.
  Two years ago the U.K. terminal was transferred from Cable and Wireless to the Post Office. Already, the machine is overburdened. It seems incredible to me—and I am not attributing blame to one party or another—that this great organisation should have been handed over to the London Telecommunications Region, more or less as a sideline, involving, among other things, the transfer of the Cable and Wireless staff to the Post Office.
  On that I may say fairly that it has not proved to be a happy marriage. The staff believe, with some justice, that a deliberate policy of down-grading has been developed. For instance, an assistant manager from Cable and Wireless used to receive£1,200 a year. Under the Post Office he is equated to a superintendent at£630 a year, plus£100 allowance. Cable-room operators on a maximum of£658 a year, are to be replaced by new entrants going up only to£468 a year.
  I would ask the hon. Gentleman to compare the rates which are now prevailing for these new entrants with the rates which are given by the commercial companies with which we are competing. I do not think that we can get skilled labour for this job to run this very competitive industry on the cheap.
  It would be a grave injustice to suggest that the unhappiness of the staff of Cable and Wireless under the Post Office has contributed to the reduced efficiency of

  1529
  the service. I hope the hon. Gentleman will realise that he has, in fact, a great fund of good will and skill at his disposal in these staffs, who still take an immense pride in their job. What they want is scope to do it.
  The competitive work that this company is involved in, even under the Post Office, depends upon liaison and good relations with customers. Occasional hospitality, it may be, is an essential lubricant of commercial relations. Under Civil Service regulations that is extremely difficult. For example, one is given only 3s. 6d. for a guest at lunch and the host pays for his own. It is extremely difficult to conduct competitive commercial negotiations on that basis. Cable and Wireless, on the other hand, used to pay, and I think still do pay, out-of-pocket expenses.
  I should be sorry if anything I said tonight was interpreted as derogatory of the Post Office executives responsible now for Cable and Wireless. It is not so intended. The fault does not lie with them; the fault lay in the initial decision making this transfer. I would not deny that the executives now in charge are doing the best job they can.
  I suggest to the Assistant Postmaster-General that an immediate step should be the return of the London station to the company. But I will also tell him what the difficulty there would be. The Post Office will, quite naturally, resist any such decision, out of the feeling that the loss after two years would be a mark of censure. That might be felt about any attempted reorganisation of this system. I imply no mark of censure and hope that none will be assumed.
  I hope that the view will be taken that what I speak of is not incompetence, but incompatibility. In their hearts, there are people in the Post Office who know that this change should be made, and I hope that they will not resist it. At Commonwealth level, we have to restore uniformity of control. Cable and Wireless should be put on a fresh commercial basis involving the Commonwealth, and I think that will come. But I should infringe the rules of order if I went any further on that point, so I do not press it tonight.
  Mr. Hobson: How could the Commonwealth operate the telegraph service with
  1530
  out contravening the Act of Parliament—if they operated the station in the Azores, for instance?
  Mr. Deedes: I cannot explain without infringing the rules of order. I am not pressing the Assistant Postmaster-General, but I mention it as an aspect of the problem.
  The Assistant Postmaster-General faces here, in miniature, the kind of problem that faces the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another context: there is some threat to London as the centre of world telecommunications. But my hon. Friend and the Postmaster-General have one or two immediate practical steps at hand and I urge them earnestly to take those steps in time.
  11.4 p.m.
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans): My hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) will not expect me, in the short time at my disposal, to go into the detailed working of the cable and wireless services. Nor should I be able to deal with all the specific points he has raised. I can, however, give him two assurances, which, I hope, will do something to remove some of his misgivings.
  The first assurance is that my noble Friend the Postmaster-General is very much alive to the complaints that have been made. As I shall try to show, although the position is better than it was a year ago, my noble Friend is by no means satisfied about the speed of the services we are now getting. I can assure my hon. Friend that we need no prodding whatever on the paramount importance of providing the best service possible, not only on Imperial grounds but also on what I might call trading grounds to help our foreign trade. Further, from the Press point of view, we regard rapid communications between ourselves and the Commonwealth as a most vital necessity in every conceivable way.
  The second pledge that I can give my hon. Friend is this: I assure him that the Postmaster-General is by no means certain that the present organisation of our overseas communications, so far as the responsibility lies in this country, represents the last word, and that if he is convinced that a reorganisation would improve the service to the public and to

  1531
  the Press he will certainly undertake it, although it was only a very short time ago that the present organisation was set up.
  For the benefit of the public generally, I should make clear the limits in which any reorganisation can take place. My hon. Friend set out the position very clearly. There is no question at all of reverting to the system in force before the passing of the Cable and Wireless Act, 1936. Until then, the Commonwealth communications system was very largely directed centrally here from London by a commercial company. This was an arrangement which, from a purely administrative point of view, had much to commend it, but since Commonwealth Governments objected to this degree of centralization—
  Mr. Hobson: Not without reason either.
  Mr. Gammans:—the Cable and Wireless organisation was split up into the various component parts and each Commonwealth country became responsible for the working of the cable and wireless system in its own country.
  The Cable and Wireless Company was purchased by the British Government with the consent of all parties in this House, and in 1950 there came into operation the dual system under which Cable and Wireless, Ltd., which remained a public company with the British Government as the sole shareholder, was responsible for the submarine cable service and for the operation of the cable and the wireless communications in many of the Colonies and foreign countries.
  I will give one example. A Press message from this country to Australia which is transmitted by radio would be sent from this country by a radio station operated by the Post Office. It might then be relayed, say, from Nairobi by a station controlled by Cable and Wireless. and finally received by Australia by a station under the control of the Australian Government.
  Within the United Kingdom the collection of telegrams for overseas and the relationship with what may be called "the customers" became the work of the Post Office, which also acquired the wireless stations and the plant in this country.
  1532
  There are various historical reasons why this was done. I do not propose to deal with them now, but it is this element of dual responsibility which, as my hon. Friend has said, is causing my noble Friend the Postmaster-General some concern, and it is only in this direction that any reorganisation could be made.
  As my hon. Friend has said, the Post Office operating the London end of the business was placed under the London Telecommunications Region. To put all this non-technically, it is this branch of the Post Office which deals with the customers here in London—they may be private persons or they may be the Press—while Cable and Wireless, Ltd., is responsible for the provision and the maintenance of the means of transmission of messages outside the United Kingdom.
  I shall not have time to say any more about all this, but I should not like the House to go away with the impression that the present service is unsatisfactory when conditions of wireless transmission are reasonable. Compared with a year ago, the delays on cables to Australia are less, I am glad to say, even though in February there was the sudden increase in traffic due to the death of His late Majesty. All the same, there have been delays, and what is perhaps disturbing is that the Imperial route certainly appears to have lost some of its trans-Atlantic traffic to the American cable companies. It is for this and other reasons that I have given the assurance to the House on behalf of my noble Friend.
  Mr. Hobson: Can the hon. Gentleman say, having made that statement, which I think he will agree is serious, that traffic has been lost to the American companies, to what extent traffic last year was greater than it was the year before? There is a continual growth in traffic.
  Mr. Gammans: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has understood me. We have been losing gradually our proportion of the transatlantic traffic, and that, I think, is a matter which will concern my noble Friend and I think it will concern hon. Gentlemen, too.
  May I give one technical illustration which may interest the House? The traffic to Australia is carried partly by radio and partly by cable, but mostly

  1533
  by radio. Neither radio nor cable can carry all the traffic at normal times. During the next two or three years, during the winter months, there is bound to be interruption of wireless traffic due to disturbances caused by sun spots. A new relay station has been set up at Nairobi, and that will help, and there are new relay stations in other parts of the world, but when sun spots interfere with wireless transmission we have to rely upon our cables.
  At the end of January there was an unfortunate hurricane at Suva in Fiji which put the cables and the station out of action for several days. We had trouble in Egypt where, on several occasions, the cable was dug up and traffic had to be sent by other routes. But, as I announced in the House a few weeks ago, this year we are renewing part of the Atlantic cable which runs from Porthcurno to Harbour Grace, which has been derelict since the war.
  This year we shall be able to replace about half of it, which will give us another cable outlet to the west. If we had enough steel we could finish the whole of the cable this year, but in the field of cable and wireless we have the same conflict we have in so many other fields—the conflict between re-armament and our commercial needs.
  May I summarise what I have tried to say. First, the position as compared with a year ago is better, in spite of the abnormal difficulties we have had to face in Fiji and Egypt. Second, by next winter there should be greater improvement because of the use once more of the Atlantic cable and the greater use of relay station facilities in Nairobi. But, third, even with this improvement my noble Friend the Postmaster-General is not prepared to accept the present organisation as being quite the best for the purpose.
  On his behalf I am authorised to give an assurance that, realising the importance of the cable and wireless service to the Commonwealth and to the world, he is examining the whole question to see whether any reorganisation, in that part of the service for which the Post Office is directly responsible, can and should be made.
  11.14 p.m.
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: As a result of listening to the Assistant Postmaster-General we can come to the
  1534
  conclusion that when delay does take place it is due chiefly to nature, in so far as we have these various sun spot cycles. But I would have been interested to know—and he has not told us—whether the expansion of the radio stations at Barbados and Colombo has been completed, because that was in the programme approved by my right hon. Friend who was Postmaster-General in the last Parliament. I agree that if we can get the Atlantic cable renewed we shall be able to deal with extra traffic which is continually going to Cable and Wireless.
  I do not accept the statement of the hon. Gentleman that loss of American traffic is due to inefficiency. It is due to the fact that we have not sufficient cables with which to cope with it. It must be remembered—
  Mr. Gammans: I did not say that the loss was due to inefficiency.
  Mr. Hobson: Then what was the loss due to? The hon. Gentleman gave no proof whatever that it had been the result of the formation of Cable and Wireless that traffic had been lost to the American companies.
  I do not think that the statement ought to have been made. But, knowing the record of the hon. Gentleman in this matter, and the things he has said, particularly in newspaper articles, about Cable and Wireless, I believe he is under a grave disability in speaking from that Box on behalf of Cable and Wireless. I hope that at some future time I shall be able to quote in extenso from what he has said.
  I thought it foolish for the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr Deedes) to try to raise on the Floor of the House what are industrial questions. He quoted various rates of pay. Rates of pay and conditions are negotiated in Cable and Wireless in precisely the same way as in the Post Office with the trade unions concerned. If these men have grievances they are entitled to take them up. There is now a proper and fully recognised trade union in Cable and Wireless which did not exist before and to that extent the men employed there are certainly at a great advantage.
  I think that the men are doing a good job. One of the troubles is that certain sections of the Press, not all,

  1535
  but some of them, think they ought to have some priority in the sending of messages, despite the fact that they pay less than a commercial undertaking, and there is this continual pressure to get preferential treatment. Further, when we talk about delays which occur for reasons enumerated by the Assistant Postmaster-General, we are not always sure that the delays are at this end. They could be in Australia and one must try to find out to what extent the delays take place in Australia before blaming the British administration entirely.
  The fact is that Cable and Wireless was originally carried out by the Post Office. It was then taken over by Cable and Wireless Ltd. as a result of legislation passed by the predecessors of the hon. Gentleman. We then had continuous complaints about Cable and Wireless to such an extent that they were actually imperilling Commonwealth relations during the war. No less a person than the present Prime Minister had to send Lord Reith to Australia to try to smooth things out.
  He came back with a scheme which by and large is the same scheme as that under which Cable and Wireless is now administered. I think it works very well. If there had not been the setting up of the Commonwealth Telecommunications Board it would have resulted in a complete break-up of Commonwealth work
  1536
  ing. But now it is working efficiently and Cable and Wireless are doing a good job, and so are the Post Office.
  The Post Office have a tremendous experience in wireless telegraphy and cables. They were the pioneers, and, in fact, at present, when Cable and Wireless are in difficulties as a result of the neglect of Cable and Wireless Ltd. in looking after their ships, it is Government cable ships which have to do the repairs. I have no doubt that it will be the telegraph ship "Monarch," the property of the Post Office, which will do the work in the North Atlantic.
  I did therefore regret the off-hand way in which the hon. Gentleman dealt with these problems in his reply. After all, it is members of his own staff who have to deal with the public and the Press. I am convinced that in the same way as the American companies have their difficulties, we have ours. In my submission, the reason there has been a loss of traffic is due entirely to the growth of the traffic and not in the failure, as some would suggest, of Cable and Wireless, or the Post Office, in carrying out their responsibilities towards the British public or the British Press.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.

CIVIL AVIATION
  Ringway Airport
  Ringway Airport
  Airfields (Flocks of Birds)
  Airfields (Flocks of Birds)
  IRON CURTAIN COUNTRIES (REFUGEES)
  IRON CURTAIN COUNTRIES (REFUGEES)
  MALAYA (RESETTLEMENT)
  MALAYA (RESETTLEMENT)
COLONIAL EMPIRE
  Agricultural Policy
  Agricultural Policy
  Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika (Coffee Growing)
  Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika (Coffee Growing)
ROYAL NAVY
  Dock Workers, Malta (Claim)
  Dock Workers, Malta (Claim)
  Admiralty Shareholdings
  Admiralty Shareholdings
  BAHREIN—DOHA AIRMAIL SERVICE
  BAHREIN—DOHA AIRMAIL SERVICE
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Northampton
  Northampton
  Amendment (No. 1) Regulations, 1952
  Amendment (No. 1) Regulations, 1952
  SPORTS TELEVISION ADVISORY COMMITTEE'S REPORT
  SPORTS TELEVISION ADVISORY COMMITTEE'S REPORT
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  No. 292 (Eccles) A.T.C. Squadron (Summer Camp)
  No. 292 (Eccles) A.T.C. Squadron (Summer Camp)
  Auxiliary and Reserve Forces (Bounties)
  Auxiliary and Reserve Forces (Bounties)
  TEST BEDS, LEAVESDEN
  TEST BEDS, LEAVESDEN
  NATIONAL SERVICE MEN, LANARK (COMPLAINT)
  NATIONAL SERVICE MEN, LANARK (COMPLAINT)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Apples (Imports from Europe)
  Apples (Imports from Europe)
  Anglo-American Productivity Council
  Anglo-American Productivity Council
  RATING REVALUATION AND EQUALISATION GRANTS
  RATING REVALUATION AND EQUALISATION GRANTS
  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers

EARL ALEXANDER OF TUNIS
Field-Marshal the Right Honourable Harold Rupert Leofric George, Viscount Alexander of Tunis, K.G., G.C.B., G.C.M.G., C.S.I., D.S.O., M.C., having been created Baron Rideau of Ottawa and of Castlederg in the County of Tyrone and Earl Alexander of Tunis—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

PROPOSED PORTMAN SQUARE HOTEL
2.50 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether permission has been sought for the construction of a fourteen-storey hotel on the Montagu House site in Portman Square and, if so, what stage has been reached in the negotiations.]
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I am informed that an application was made on July 14, 1951, to the London County Council, as local planning authority, for permission to erect a fourteen-storey hotel on the island site to the north-west of Portman Square, which includes the site of Montagu House and is bounded by Upper Berkeley Street, Montagu Street, Upper George Street and Gloucester Place. Permission was refused on November 5, 1951. I understand that the reason for the refusal was that while the County Council do not object in principle to hotel development on this site, they do object to the proposed incorporation in the building of an air
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passenger terminal facing Upper Berkeley Street, as being out of keeping with the residential character of the surrounding area. I believe that no further application has yet been made, but that informal consultations have been taking place between the developers and representatives of the County Council.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, I should like to ask him the following supplementary question. If the further negotiations to which he referred should prove successful and permission is eventually given to build the hotel, would the fact that the steel and other materials are to come from outside this country take the proposal outside the present restrictions on buildings of this type?
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I really cannot anticipate the situation, because no planning permission has yet been given. However, I should have thought that if steel were supplied by an American company without any foreign exchange being involved, that would not be a deterrent to building the hotel.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I should like to ask whether Her Majesty's Government are aware, first, that the air terminal scheme has been dropped, and secondly, that it is calculated that 3,000,000 dollars' worth of tourist trade will be attracted by this hotel.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware that the hotel might attract a good deal of tourist trade. But the matter is not yet one for the Government. It is still a matter for the local authority, and negotiations are still taking place. I do not think I can anticipate what those negotiations will produce.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Lord, but, further to the supplementary question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, I should like to ask whether the Government are aware that not only all the steel but also all the other equipment is being brought from outside, so that our own programme will not be affected.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, the Government are aware of that.

FUTURE OF THE CANAL SYSTEM
2.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name an the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask whether it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to abandon the canal system of this country or sell it to local authorities and to transfer its goods traffic to the railways.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE CO-ORDINATION OF TRANSPORT, FUEL AND POWER (LORD LEATHERS): My Lords, there are some 2,600 miles of canals and navigable rivers in this country, of which about 2,000 miles were transferred to the British Transport Commission by the Transport Act, 1947. This 2,000 miles includes most of the inland waterways still used commercially for navigation, which carry about 12,000,000 tons of commercial traffic and play a useful part in the transport system of the country. About half the tonnage carried is coal, and the Commission have no intention of abandoning or disposing of their system of waterways as a whole. A number of canals, however (accounting for approximately one-third of the total mileage transferred to the Commission) were little or not at all used commercially or had already become derelict, and the Commission are satisfied that many are no longer required as a means of transport. It may be decided that some should be abandoned as no longer needed others, if not required for purposes of navigation, may yet serve a useful purpose as drainage channels, as sources of water supply to agriculture and industries along their banks, or as amenities for pleasure boating. I understand that in several such cases the Commission have opened negotiations with the authorities particularly concerned for the transfer of parts of canals to them. The remaining canals of the country are in private hands.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for a full and informative reply, will he see that lectures such as those recently given to a number of students of town and country planning, which were roughly in the terms of the Question I put on the Order Paper, are not given?
LORD LEATHERS: My Lords, I was not aware of any such lectures, but I will inquire and see what can be done.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES
2.57 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Second Report from the Select Committee.
The Committee reported as follows:
1.—LIBRARY.
The Committee approved the Report of the Sub-Committee on the Library.
The Committee authorised an extension of service to Mr. Charles Travis Clay, C.B., the Librarian, for one year from the 30th July, 1952.
The Committee sanctioned a revised scale of salary for the Assistant Librarian.
2.—HISTORICAL RECORDS.
The Clerk of the Parliaments informed the Committee of further progress by the Ministry of Works in the air conditioning of the manuscript repository in the Victoria Tower and the provision of improve d means of access to the rooms.
The Committee approved a revised scale of salary for the Clerk in charge of the Historical records, and the application of the senior scale of salary to the post of Office Assistant.
3.—CUSTODIANS.
The Committee were informed of the result of the negotiations with the Treasury and approved revised rates of pay for the Custodian staff.
4.—REVISED SCALES OF PAY.
The Committee sanctioned the application of Treasury Establishment Circulars:—
83/51 (Pay of Women Cleaners)
85/51 (Pay of Messengers and Paperkeepers)
86/51 (Pay of Senior Messengers, Senior Paperkeepers and Chief Paperkeepers) to analogous grades of the staff of the House of Lords.
5.—PAY ADDITIONS.
The Committee sanctioned the application of Treasury Establishment Circulars No. 5/52 dated 23rd January, 1952, and No. 9/52 dated 6th February, 1952, to the Staff of the House of Lords to whom it may be applied.
The Committee authorised the consequential increase in the Estimates for the House of Lords for 1952–53.
6.—SUPERANNUATION.
The Committee sanctioned the application of Treasury Establishment Circulars:—
7/52 The Injury Warrant, 1952
10/52 The Superannuation (Reserve and Auxiliary Forces) Rules, 1952
13/52 Pensionable Value of Uniform to any staff of the House of Lords to whom it may be applied.
7.—GRATUITY TO LEGAL PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE OF CUSTODIAN.
The Committee approved the payment of a gratuity under the Superannuation Acts to the legal personal representative of Custodian J. J. Farrell, who died on 20th December, 1951.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move that the Report of the House of Lords Offices Committee be now considered.
Moved, That the Report be now considered—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, there is no particular point in this Report to which I need draw your Lordships' attention. I therefore beg formally to move that the Report be now approved.
Moved, That the Report be now approved—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONWEALTH STUDENTS IN BRITAIN
2.58 p.m.
THE EARL OF LUCAN THE EARL OF LUCAN rose to call attention to the difficulties experienced by students from the Commonwealth, and especially by those from Colonial territories, on arriving and during their stay in this country; to ascertain from Her Majesty's Government what proposals they have to make towards a solution of these difficulties; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, it may be thought at first sight that the subject of this Motion is not one with which your Lordships should be concerned at a time when there are many important matters on a world scale engaging attention. However, I make no apology for introducing this Motion at this time. Intercourse between the countries of the Commonwealth and the United Kingdom is one of the strongest links that binds the Commonwealth together. The countries of the Commonwealth are growing up. The effects of some generations of education are being felt; and the pace of political and other development in all the Commonwealth countries has greatly increased in the last few years. The majority of those who come to this country from the Commonwealth are young men and women training for their
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careers. In ten or twenty years' time those people will be rising to the top of their professions; they will become the leaders of opinion in their own country, and possibly even on a bigger scale—it is not impossible that one of the students in London to-day may be a future President of the General Assembly of the United Nations. That is the sort of thing we must have in mind, and our efforts should be directed to providing a contribution to the solution of a permanent problem of this world—namely, the problem of relations between races. Budgets come and go year by year, but the problem of race relations remains. Therefore, it is necessary that the subject should be discussed in public from time to time; and I would ask your Lordships to follow the problem as I try to outline it.
The question of these students is largely a matter of arithmetic, and fortunately the arithmetic is simple. There are about 15,000 overseas students in this country: 5,000 of them are from foreign countries and the United States; 5,000 are from the self-governing countries—India, Pakistan, Ceylon and others; and the remaining 5,000 are from the Colonial territories. Your Lordships may like to know that the greater number of the Colonial students come from West Africa. Another large body come from the West Indies; smaller numbers from East and Central Africa and the Far East; some from the Mediterranean and a couple of hundred from other territories, such as Mauritius and Fiji.
Of these 5,000 students, 2,000 are taking university degrees and 3,000 are taking other courses in law at non-university colleges. Two thousand of them come over with Government scholarships from their own countries, and 3,000 come over as private students. There are 2,500 working in London and 2,500 in the Provinces, in Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Irish Republic and Wales. Those figures take no account of a class of student who present a certain problem, what I may call the free-lance students, those who come with no Government assistance and often without notifying any authorities. They just come, as it were, seeking their fortunes. There are a number also doing postgraduate work in the professions, and the list of subjects which are being taken is most illuminating. Students are working

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on anything from accountancy to veterinary science; from boot making to theology. But the greatest single number are taking nursing; and, after that, medicine, law and engineering are the most popular subjects.
In the case of the older Commonwealth countries we may say that there is no problem at all. Students from Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are following well-trodden paths. There is no language difficulty; they have adequate arrangements made by their own High Commissioners and they represent no problem. Similarly, the self-governing countries of India, Pakistan and Ceylon also have their High Commissioner stills in London, and they make adequate arrangements. What it comes to, therefore, is that the problem of the student is primarily the problem of the West African student.
Now what is that problem? I suggest that our aim must be to ensure that the Commonwealth students get the maximum benefit from their stay here, so that they return home, not only having achieved their aim scholastically but also having sampled our life and, we hope, carrying away something which will be of value to them when they get home. It is a serious problem. I suppose that there is no one born and bred in London, and whose home is in London, who has not at some time or other realised, with something, of an unpleasant shock, what it must mean to arrive from abroad in a vast city like this, alone and without a friend. They are strangers in a strange land. This applies, of course, to all young people starting life in a foreign country. They feel loneliness and insecurity, and they need help in settling in and adapting themselves to their new surroundings. That is just where the danger lies. If these people are roughly handled, or if they are injured, they will carry the scars with them through life. If they meet with friendliness and sympathy, and are fully accepted into our life, they will take home with them something of the qualities of which we are proud; and their character and outlook will be profoundly influenced by their experiences in their most impressionable years.
That much is probably common to all students. But here we come to the factor which makes this problem of such particular difficulty; that is, the colour
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question. If coloured students from overseas countries are refused admittance on the same terms as white people to hotels, lodging-houses, restaurants and dances, or if they are made to feel that they are looked upon here as inferior or unfit to associate with white people, they will feel natural resentment and anger and will be deeply hurt. Those who have been taught—and there are many of them—that England is a Christian country will be disillusioned. Those who believe that England is the home of democracy will develop a cynicism which can do nothing but harm when they return home. I will not pretend that this question of colour prejudice is a simple problem. There are, and there have been, faults on both sides. Everybody knows that there are good and bad coloured men, the same as there are good and bad white men. The trouble is that among certain people in this country there is a tendency to regard all black men as bad and all white men as good, instead of taking people on their merits.
In fact, of course, misunderstandings are bound to arise when we try to assimilate into our society here, highly developed, highly sophisticated, and with long traditions, people from a wide range of societies abroad—anything from a primitive tribal society to a highly civilised city like Lagos. There are bound to be misunderstandings with a strange language, climate and people. Your Lordships may remember that some years ago there was a book written by a distinguished Frenchman or Dutchman, entitled The English—Are They Human? Foreigners, even Western European foreigners, look upon the English as a very strange people. How much more strange do they appear to a boy or girl from Africa or the West Indies? These misunderstandings which have gone on for many years have left a legacy from which we cannot escape, a legacy of suspicion in the minds of every coloured man who comes to this country.
I am afraid that there is sometimes a tendency for young coloured men to be rather on the look-out for insults, so it is all the more important that they should be treated with civility and friendliness. Every isolated case that happens is magnified by publicity and by this latent

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Suspicion; and, of course, it does an infinity of harm to relations between this country and the Commonwealth. I do not say that these practices are on a wide scale, but I would urge upon your Lordships that even if they are only on a small scale they do enormous harm. I should like Her Majesty's Government (I have given notice of this request to my noble friend who is to reply) to make it quite clear that they disapprove of any such actions, and that in their opinion those who practise those things are doing, even if unwittingly, most serious harm to Commonwealth relations.
There is one other difficulty in the relations between students in this country and the general population, and that is the question of Communism. Many people, whenever they think of Colonial students, almost automatically think of Communism: they assume that these students are Communists, or that the Communists are making converts on a large scale. I do not know whether anybody knows how many young students become converts to Communism while they are in this country. What I do know is that there are only two ways of combating that. One would be to have a censorship, and a denial of liberty of thought—which is quite unacceptable in this country, and I hope always will be. The other is by treating these students with sympathy and understanding, welcoming them and making sure that they are contented.
Now, my Lords, what are the basic needs of students in this country? They want a welcome on arrival; they want to feel that someone is taking an interest in them when they disembark; they want temporary accommodation; and then they want permanent arrangements for lodging, and an introduction to normal English life. After that, I suggest, they only want helping (the help kept in the background) as their problems arise. I am sure it is important that once a student has found his feet on coming to this country he should be nursed as little as possible. It is even more important that any help given to him should be free from any flavour of charity or condescension. From the first he should be encouraged to enter fully into the life of his colleagues at the university. He should live and work and play with his fellow students of the same age and of
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other nationalities. Finally, he should not be segregated and live in an academic world exclusively; he should enter, as far as possible, into the widest range of activities in the ordinary life of this country.
The most important and the most difficult need to satisfy is that of accommodation. It is generally agreed that the ideal solution for a student is to live in the hall of residence of his college or university, where he will be with other students of all nationalities and share their life and the corporate life of the university. For his leisure and his vacations he should be able to make English friends with whom he can spend some of his leisure. That solution, unfortunately, is impossible in London, at any rate for more than a very small fraction of the number of students. That applies equally to British students, as well as to those from overseas. The accommodation available in hostels and halls of residence, is enough for only a fraction of the students on the books.
Failing this solution, there are three possibilities—I am talking now of permanent lodging throughout the years that a student spends here. There is the hostel for Colonial students: that is one possibility. There is life in a private family as a paying guest. Lastly, there is the ordinary lodging house or boarding house where the student is one of a number of guests. As regards the hostel, your Lordships may remember that last year there was a disagreement, an account of which appeared in the newspapers, over the hostel at Hans Crescent run by the British Council. That is the largest hostel in London. In many ways, life in these hostels is the most popular amongst students. One can well understand that, because life is easier and less effort is required when a student is living among his own contemporaries and people of his own nationality than when he is staying in a foreign home. Moreover, the hostel can be so arranged as to be less unfamiliar than the ordinary English home: various amenities can be put in to remind the student of his home.
The disadvantage of this sort of accommodation is that the student is segregated and lives among students only. His opportunities for any wider acquaintance are limited, and the ordinary student in the university is deprived of the benefit of rubbing

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shoulders with all these Colonial students. One remedy for the last disadvantage is that these hostels should be deliberately mixed and should include a number of British students living with the West Africans in the hostel. I suggest that for the first year or so of a student's life there is a great deal to be said for these hostels—but there again, the numbers are too small. Going into an English family as a paying guest is a very good way for a student to gain a knowledge of English life and English people. It is very much to be preferred. The last solution, the boarding house, is almost proverbially the lot of all those who conic to London to seek their fortune. It conduces to a sense of loneliness and isolation, and undoubtedly is the least satisfactory of the solutions I have mentioned for the students.
I have sketched out the problem. What is being done to deal with it? A number of voluntary bodies, of all sorts, too numerous to mention, religious bodies and others, have been active for a good many years in this field, but their resources are limited arid so the extent of the work they can do is limited also. In the last two years there has been much more public awareness of the problem, and within the last year several steps have been taken, the first and most important of which being that the Colonial Office handed over responsibility to the British Council for Colonial Students. That agreement dated from January 1, 1950. To cope with those responsibilities the British Council expanded their student welfare department and have taken certain other measures which I will outline.
First, they meet students on arrival, wherever they may arrive—at airport, seaport or railway station—at any hour of the day, night or week-end. That, in itself, is a considerable task and a great contribution to softening the rigours of the arrival of the student here. I may say that it must throw a considerable strain on the staff of the British Council. They meet the students, they bring them up to London, they accommodate them for a night or two and they put them on the way to their destinations. Nearly 2,400 students were met last year under this arrangement, and the Council were fortunate in being given the use of a house called Moray Lodge, on Camden Hill, for the purpose of what might be called a transit camp for the students. Some-
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thing like 1,000 students passed through in the peak period of arrival, which is August, September and October. But I am told that Mora3, Lodge may not be available to the Council this year. I do not know what other schemes are under consideration, but I am convinced that the British Council will need a great deal of Government help rather urgently if they are to find accommodation to meet the summer rush of students this year. I commend that matter to the Government for their urgent consideration.
I heard of one instance of private initiative in the welcoming of students which may interest your Lordships. The Students' Union of University College of the University of London some time ago decided on their own to get a list of all the Colonial students who were entered for the College for the coming year. They wrote to each a personal letter welcoming them and offering advise and assistance. They met them individually when they arrived and brought them to London, and they introduced them to university life in a way that could not be bettered. That is an example of what individual bodies and colleges can do. It is not a question for the Government; it depends on individuals. I have heard also that the legal profession have taken steps recently to help overseas students. They have not only introduced provisions so that the first examination can be taken outside the United Kingdom and the first year's work can be done in the student's home, but they have appointed a students' advisory officer in London, who assists students when they arrive and to whom they can take all their problems.
A friendly welcome on disembarkation is all very well; that is a very good start: but the accommodation of students still needs attention. Permanent accommodation other than in students' hostels is mostly arranged by the British Council in private families. They have a register of lodgings, all of which have been inspected, to which they direct the students. I understand that there is a great reluctance on the part of the students to go to the outer parts of London where, as against the disadvantages of higher fares and more travelling, the rents are considerably cheaper. However, there is a great tendency to try to live as near the centre of London as possible. Last year the Council placed over 800 Colonial students in lodgings in London, and

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nearly 800 in the Provinces. I should explain that the Council are empowered to spend money only on Government scholars and students recommended by their Governments. In the case of other students—the private and the free-lance students—they can meet them on arrival, put them up for a night or two and offer them advice on permanent accommodation, but they cannot spend money on them.
Lastly, there is the question of introducing the students to English life. The British Council have their centres. The biggest is in London in Hanover Street. There are smaller ones in other cities in the Provinces. All overseas students are made welcome in those centres and are encouraged to look upon them as a home. In 1951, there were 1,800 enrolled members, representing 104 different countries, at the London centre The average daily attendance was over 200. The programme includes week-end courses, vacation courses, visits to factories and farms and the like, and lectures and discussions. These centres also provide an opportunity to put students in touch with all manner of voluntary organisations, such as youth organisations, sport clubs, Rotary clubs and trade unions, and also with members of the general public. Seventeen hundred students were invited to private homes from this centre. That is not an entirely simple matter. There are a good many inhibitions to break down. It is not everybody who has the genius for making friends with young people or putting them at their ease, and it is not always those people who are in a position to offer hospitality. That is a large subject in itself.
In order to carry out these responsibilities the British Council, as I have said, have centres in London and elsewhere. There are other clubs, apart from those of the British Council, run by numerous private bodies and by one or two Colonial Governments, of which those for Malaya and East Africa are but two. At the same time, I am sure there is still a need for one or more places where a student can go as of right, as a member; where he can meet his fellow students, entertain his friends and generally feel he is at home. It
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has been suggested to me that the Imperial Institute in South Kensington has the space and the situation to make it very suitable for this purpose. I should be glad if the Government would let us know whether they have any information on the possible use of the Imperial Institute for this purpose. London University has in the planning stage a most inspiring scheme for a students' international hostel, and when it materialises it will be of great value as a centre of academic life, not only for London but for almost the whole world. Visiting students and professors from all countries will be welcome there. I am glad to hear that the late Government undertook to contribute a proportion of the total cost. A number of Commonwealth countries have already made payments towards the cost, and some others have promised contributions. There is one small and specialised class of student about whom I feel some anxiety—namely, the officers, other ranks, ratings and boys, in particular, from India, Pakistan and Ceylon, who are in this country on attachments, courses or apprenticeships with the three Services. The schools close down for the holiday periods and the English soldiers, sailors and airmen go home on leave. This presents a problem as to where these overseas people should go. I suggest to the Government that the Service Departments might look into this question, because it seems to me that they should take responsibility for these men at these periods.
From what I have said of the various needs and of the number of people offering to meet those needs, it is obvious that a good deal of co-ordinating has to be done if there is not to be duplication. Two valuable steps have been taken in the last year. One is that the Colonial Office set up a consultative committee on the welfare of Colonial students. This committee, of which I understand the noble Earl who is to reply is Chairman, has associated with it Members of Parliament, representatives of the British Council and London University and, most important of all, the heads or representatives of all the Colonial student unions—Malayan, West African, West Indian, and so on. They have direct contact with the Minister, which seems an admirable arrangement, and I hope the noble Earl will tell us something about how it is

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working. One other co-ordinating body set up by the British Council is called the Standing Committee of Voluntary Societies, and the chairman, a distinguished lady, Miss Trevelyan, holds the post of Adviser on Overseas Students at the University of London. One of the first definite achievements of this committee has been the successful launching of a scheme among London boroughs, the object of which is to introduce students living in those boroughs to every aspect of life. The first to start on this work has been the Borough of Kensington. I am told that a very active committee is in being and has already gathered the threads together, putting the students, wherever they may come from, into touch with every conceivable side of life in the borough—the local authority, religious societies, voluntary societies, youth organisations, trade unions, political parties, sports clubs and so on. That seems to be an example that might well be followed by other London boroughs. Kensington has led the way. I believe Hampstead is on the point of forming a similar committee. That seems to be a means of ensuring not only that the student sees the surface of but that he really gets into English life.
My Lords, I have sketched out the problem and the steps that are being taken to deal with it. Before I wind up I should like to mention one other matter in regard to which I think some Government action could be taken to alleviate, to some extent, the problem of the student. A number of young people—an unknown number, because they do not register with anybody and very often nobody knows about them—come over to this country, hoping to study for some profession or to enter some teaching institution. Whether front a spirit of adventure or just a lack of foresight, they do not find out before they come whether there will be a vacancy for them. When they arrive they have nothing to do, their money runs out, and it may be the start of a lot of trouble. I should be the last to suggest that we should introduce any compulsion on, bar to or screening of students coming into this country. The more that come the better, We do not want to discourage them in their ambitions, cm from coming to learn in this country. But I do think it should be made quite certain that those young people and their parents in the Colonies
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are made aware of the true situation. Possibly, an improvement or an enlargement of the information services would do some good. I believe information is already sent regularly from the Colonial Office to the Colonial Governments. What is wanted is that the information should get out to the colleges, the schools, the populations and the parents. If that were done there might be a few, but only a very few, who would be deterred from coming here—but they would be just those people who would be most likely to become problem cases if they did.
My Lords, I have kept you a very long time. May I say, in conclusion, that we are proud of our schools and our universities and the way we live here—what is sometimes called the "British way of life"? We are glad that men and women from the Commonwealth should look to this country for training for their careers, and we want them to go home with pleasant memories of this country, having acquired something useful and of value from their training. Whether they do so or not depends not on the Government, but on the general public. The British people, I am sure, value their reputation for tolerance and good manners. It is only a small minority who have not yet grasped the fact that bad manners to a man because he is black is a sign of barbarism. Francis Bacon said truly:
"if a man he gracious and courteous to strangers, it shows he is a citizen of the world."
The last year has seen very useful steps taken to co-ordinate the various agencies working for the welfare of the students, and I hope that Her Majesty's Government will have something to tell us about their ideas for the future. I beg to move for Papers.
3.43 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, for setting down this Motion today. I am sure there was no need whatsoever for him to apologise for putting it on the Order Paper at a time when the other House is concerned with other matters. In my view, we could discuss no more important topic than this. It is, I think, vital to our whole future. I know that this is a subject which is very close to the hearts of many of your Lordships here to-day, and of some who are not, and I am sure that those of us who feel strongly about these matters have an

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ally in the noble and gallant Earl, the Minister of Defence, whom I am glad to see sitting on the Bench opposite for the first time. I am sure we all agree that the keynote of race relations is mutual sympathy and trust, and in order to establish good personal relationships and friendships we have to take positive action. The establishment of good personal relationships and friendships will do more than anything else to reduce the differences of colour and race which now exist. But unfortunately, we do not, for a number of reasons, get to know one another as we should do.
I think that in the Colonies and in the Colonial territories, in the first place, races are still to a large extent separated socially. Perhaps that is not the case to the same extent as it was when I lived in the Colonies, but even to-day there is a great deal of separation between races so far as social matters are concerned. There is a problem arising out of the different backgrounds and different habits, and those who knew the Colonies shortly before my time, in what I call the old days, prior to the First World War (I remember some of the survivals of the old days but I do not remember the state of affairs which existed then) attribute a good deal of the trouble to the advent of European wives to the Colonies. They said that whereas the admission of European wives in large numbers had undoubtedly improved the health and, equally, the morals of Europeans in the Colonies, it had also to a large extent resulted in driving something of a wedge between their husbands and the local native populations. That was a view that was very generally held when I first went to live in the Colonies, and I think that, to some extent, there was some truth in it. Undoubtedly, women coming from this country, where we have mainly an urban life and an urban population, tended to create the sort of society which they had here, where the classes are fairly rigidly segregated, and they brought their own interests and formed their own circles. This was accentuated, because until recently the women of the Colonial peoples did not mix socially at all—very often not even with their own menfolk, and certainly not with menfolk from any other country.
I am glad to see that this state of affairs is changing now and that there is far
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greater mixing between races than there was twenty or thirty years ago. Yet it is still a fact that in many instances young Colonial men and women do not have many opportunities in their own countries of mixing on a social level with people from this country. They meet them in court, at their offices and in shops, but they do not often meet them outside those places. In this country, I regret to say, the bulk of the population is still very little interested in either Commonwealth countries in general or in the Colonies in particular. There are a few people who are intensely interested in these matters and who are doing a fine job of work. I am glad that the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, has referred to them because they get very few tributes paid to them, either in Parliament or elsewhere. I, myself, meet many Colonial students socially, and have been doing so for years past, and not only Colonial students but business men from the Colonies, especially from Malaya. I find that one of the things that strikes them especially when they come here is the lack of interest displayed by the people of this country in the Colonial territories. They themselves have been brought up to have a very good knowledge of this country and of the facts concerning it. They know our rivers, our ports, our towns and our industries better than they do their own. They need to do, since they have to pass examinations in them and not in their own. These people are surprised and saddened when they come here by the fact that few people know anything at all about them or their countries.
Two or three years ago when I was in Malaya a dinner was given in my honour by some old Malay friends. My host was a well-known man in Malaya. He is very well disposed to this country—indeed, Britain has no greater friend. After dinner he told this story, which saddened the Malays who heard it very much and also saddened me and made me feel rather ashamed. He said that when he came over here about three years ago to visit this country for the first time in his life, he had a conversation with a small group of people. They were persons of substance and, apparently, well educated. They asked him where he came from and he replied: "Malaya." Then they said to him: "What do you produce in Malaya?" He replied: "Tin." As he spoke with a Malayan

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accent, they did not catch his answer clearly and they said, "Tea?". My friend replied: "No, tin." They said: "Good neavens! do you produce tin in Malaya?". Considering that the standard! of living in this country and, therefore, of that man's questioners, has been largely supported since the end of the war by Malayan tin and rubber, he had some reason to feel aggrieved at the lack of knowledge and interest displayed by those people. It is just that sort of folly, that lack of interest in the Colonial territories, which does more harm than anything else.
In this respect I want to say a word about the Press. It is not often that tributes to the Press are paid from this side of the House, but I do say that the Press of this country is far ahead of public opinion with regard to Colonial matters. When I was at the Colonial Office I was constantly in touch with the Press. I always found them most helpful and anxious to further Colonial causes in every way. In fact, so much so that the circulation manager of one popular paper told the editor that if he kept on running so many photographs and stories about the Colonies, the circulation might drop. I think we have to realise that we are not the citizens of some minor European republic; we are the heart of a great Empire and a vast Commonwealth. The sooner we realise that, the better. If any of your Lordships lias had the opportunity, as I have often had, of trying to talk to an ordinary audience about Colonial matters, he will see, however brilliant a speaker he may be (and I make no claim to brilliance), how quickly the eyes of his hearers will glaze over when the word "Colonies" is mentioned. From then on he has lost their interest, until he gets back to the subject of bus fares or other matters of greater importance.
This lack of interest all leads to misunderstandings, as my noble friend Lord Lucan has indicated. It reinforces the tendency of Colonials to be suspicious. A short time ago a West African spoke to me on this matter. He had not long arrived in this country, and was feeling very hurt about what had happened. He took a trip on one of our suburban railway lines, which was quite an experience in itself. He went into a carriage full of people, every person with a newspaper up before his eyes. No one lowered his paper when he came in. No one asked
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him where he came from, or asked his name or where he was going. He thought at once that they took this attitude because he was black, and he was upset. I said to him, "My dear fellow, if the Archangel Gabriel had come into the compartment no one would have lowered his newspaper. No one would have asked his name, or where he came from or where he was going. You were treated no differently from anybody else." But it is difficult for coloured people to realise that.
There is one subject which is always in the minds of Colonial peoples and they always raise it—that is, Russia. They see through a great deal of the great Russian myth, but Russia has gained great kudos by passing a law making the colour bar illegal. One can tell them, of course, that there has been no great evidence of consideration in the actions of the Soviet Government, and that, if all the tales we hear are true, they have inflicted some terrible sufferings upon their Colonial peoples. I believe that one tribe has disappeared altogether, except for a few remnants who happened to be away when the purge was on. But they say that the banning of the colour bar is something which we in this country have not done. We can point out that under common law colour discrimination is not legal, but they find restrictive covenants in leases and other matters of that kind. It may be held by a court of law that a covenant restricting the admission of coloured people in house premises is voidable or void, but perhaps it would be a wise thing for the Government to consider whether we should not have some kind of declaratory Bill in this matter. To make certain that the Colonial people understand the situation we should have a Bill declaring that colour discrimination is illegal. I know the arguments against such a measure, but I am sure we shall never convince these Colonial people of our sincerity until something of this kind is done.
These matters affect all visitors, but especially students who live here for years. As my noble friend Lord Lucan has said, they are vitally important. Our relations with them are of increasing importance in these days, and they have tremendous influence in their own countries. As leaders in the future their interest will be overwhelming, and no

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pains should be spared to remedy matters. This calls for an all-out effort by everybody, and not merely by the Government. The Colonial Office and the British Council have done very well. In Mr. Keith, the Director of Commonwealth students, they have an official whose heart is in his job. I know that when I was a Colonial Minister he would come to me almost frothing at the mouth when he thought something had happened which affected his students in any way. He and his department are doing their best, as are the liaison officers from the various Colonies. They must be encouraged to continue their good work. We must find good lodgings and hostels where other British students live and where there is no segregation, as occurs at Hans Crescent. I think it is a good thing to try to persuade some of the people who can afford it to send their boys to public schools here. I have persuaded one or two of my friends to do that, and the experiment is proving well worth while. The boys go there at an early age, when there is no question of colour bar or any nonsense of that kind.
I am glad that the Students' Consultative Committee have been formed. They have held two meetings, and I am sure that the Colonial Office will listen to their advice. I think, however, that Colonial Governments can do a great deal more, and perhaps the noble Earl the Under-Secretary will be able to persuade them to do more than they are doing. In my view it is important that, wherever possible, the Colonies should send over post-graduate students, rather than undergraduates, for there are universities in most of the Colonial regions. They should also send over with them the wives of married students. The Emirs in Northern Nigeria, who seem to have more knowledge of human nature than some Governments, always do this. They send over not more than one wife with every married student who comes here. My noble friend Lord Lucan has given the House some idea of the number of technical students. There are 863 law students, which seems to me to be rather a large number. Far be it from me to be derogatory of the law or lawyers, but it seems to me that the Colonies themselves will find that this is far too great a number when there
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are only 220 science students, 500 engineering students and few teachers. One interesting development is that there are 300 teachers from Malaya, and 86 artisans from the Gold Coast, so that there is some progress towards what is wanted—a balanced student population.
I have long suggested that in places like Northern Nigeria, which the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, knows well, it would be a good thing to have tied scholarships. I know that educationists will jump down my throat for making that suggestion, but it is a difficult thing to arrange university scholarships in places where there are few secondary schools and where people cannot afford to send their sons to secondary schools. In these cases it is necessary to give university scholarships to elementary school pupils, so that they will carry boys right through secondary school to the university. When I visited Northern Nigeria I found the complaint that in many cases boys from Northern Nigeria, who would make the sort of students we want in agriculture and veterinary surgery, were unable to afford to go to secondary school, whereas boys from the Eastern province, from the Ibo people, who have no experience of animals, were able to go through secondary school and take university scholarships. So that we have the absurd position of boys who did not know how to put a halter on a horse taking their final examinations as veterinary officers. They had the whole thing in theory, but had no practical experience whatsoever. In this respect I am afraid that some Colonies themselves have been to blame. I once visited a post-war school for Askari ex-Service men, where they paid far more attention to scholarship boys going in for teaching than to those training as agricultural officers. That seems to me all wrong,. I suggest, too, that the Colonial Governments should take more interest in students here: that they should do what some Governments have done and set up institutions such as East Africa House and Malaya House.
Then there are the universities and the Inns of Court. They are doing a great deal and, as my noble friend has said, we are grateful to them for that. But they do take a number of these private scholars, who are financed by their

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parents, or by friends or societies. There has been a great increase in the number of these scholars in the last year or so, and I wonder whether the universities and the Inns of Court are careful enough in the selection of these people. Do they inquire into their financial backing? As a rule, it is these private students who get into trouble. They come here without sufficient financial backing, often without the necessary educational qualification, and the result is that they fall into bad hands. They are a prey to political harpies and other harpies; and that is what we do not want. Then I would ask: Are the political Parties doing as much as they could in this country? The Communists are doing a great dell; but are the others? That is a matter in which we should all search our consciences. The Conservative Party have a department dealing with this problem, and so have the Labour Party, and I am not at all sure that we should not extend that work. Those who are doing it are doing their best, and they are doing a good job; but I am not sure that they have enough staff to cope with the volume of work. I feel that all the societies in this country—the trade unions, the co-operative movement, the Federation of British Industries, the Rotary Clubs, the National Farmers' Union, and others—should consider this matter as one of their duties. I know that the Rotary Club in one London borough used to invite two students to their meeting every Monday, an invitation which was well received.
I suggest that this is not merely a matter for the Government, but one for the individual British citizen, in his associations and clubs. I do not think the Press and the B.B.C. could do more than they are doing. We would simply ask them to carry on their good work. Most important of all, I appeal to the great British public. In my view, many people in London and the other cities are in a position to invite two or three students, girls or boys, to their homes. They will find them intelligent, well-mannered, cheerful and appreciative. There is nothing they want more than to get to know British people, to be invited to their homes, and to get to know them in their homes. I do not suggest that people should spend a great deal of money. Boys and girls do not want that. They just want to feel that there is one fireside
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in this country by which they can sit any time they feel lonely or unhappy, and one motherly or fatherly sort of person to whom they can tell their troubles. When we have done that, then we shall have done a great deal. I feel that in this matter, above all else, we are all our "brother's keeper."
4.5 p.m.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, I intervene for a few moments in this debate in order to give some information of what has been done for these students and to make certain suggestions. My interest arises from a visit I paid. to China and West Africa, where I met a number of young men and women who had been students in our universities and teaching schools. I am also on the governing bodies of the London School of Economics and Dulwich College, both of which have a large number of overseas students. Moreover, I get certain information as to what is being done from people who are doing the largest amount of work—namely, the churches. There are only three of our churches which have independent officers appointed to deal with this work: they are, the Methodist Church, the Anglican Church (through the Church Missionary Society) and the Roman Catholic Church. So far as the Methodists are concerned, largely through the generosity of the Joseph Rank Trust they have in Inverness Terrace a large house where they accommodate seventy-eight students, who live together as one large family—as they put it themselves, with no regard to creed, differences of colour or race, or anything of that sort. In addition, there are two other residential places run under the same auspices, both situated in South Kensington. One of these makes provision for about forty-seven students, and the other for twenty-six.
There are 2,531 students in London or in the country with whom the Methodist organisation have kept in touch. There are 1,844 who are at present in this country. It is interesting to note that the majority of these come from our own Colonies. Kingsway Hall have two student residential hostels in London, one in Cleveland Street, in the West End, and the other in Norland Square. In addition, they have people meeting all the incoming boats, and representatives in the different ports. Largely they are provided with information from the particular churches in the Colonies whence these

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people come, and the Colonial Office also pass on information to them. It is worthy of note that the Colonial Office try to persuade Colonial students who have been here for some time to bring their wives with them; but the difficulty is to find accommodation for married couples when they do come. However, in the last two or three years arrangements have been made for several hundred Christian homes in the London area to accept overseas students to live with them as their sons and daughters, without regard to race or colour. That is one of the best things that can be done.
The Colonial Office are responsible only for students sponsored by their respective Governments, and there are numbers of unsponsored and unannounced students who arrive here, financed more or less by their own families. These people are an easy prey to the Communists, because often they have insufficient money; they have to get work as soon as they can and themselves seek accommodation, under the most difficult conditions. Curiously enough, so far as this denomination is concerned, we find that the people who suffer most from the colour bar are those who are studying to be solicitors and accountants. They find it most difficult to get into private homes. In that connection, the Methodist Church makes arrangements with people who are willing to take them into their homes, and for them to associate with people who will be helpful to them. I should like to give a few figures relating to these students. So far as those in Britain are concerned, 1,471 are from the Colonies, 229 from the Dominions, and 144 from other countries.
I now pass on to give some information in regard to the Church Missionary Society. They have been in touch with some 1,870 overseas students from Africa, Asia and the Middle East. The majority of them come from Africa, and in this country we have 1,150 students from that continent. The Church Missionary Society's chief source of information as to the arrival of students is through the Colonial Office, but advices of some arrivals are received from the Society's own fields, through their Bishops. The Overseas Council of the Church Assembly have recently acquired premises at the
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William Temple House in South Kensington, and they have another hostel in Philbeach Gardens. They provide for thirty-eight students in one, and fifteen in the other, who are living their permanently. So far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned, they have no separate or distinct hostels giving priority to overseas students, but they accommodate students in their ordinary hostels. They are in touch with 1,400 students from various parts of the world. Owing to the absence from London of Father McClement, who is responsible for this work, I have not been able to obtain much information. The Newman Association of National Graduates endeavours to bring graduates into their fellowship.
What is being done in this connection is worth noting, but a most dangerous aspect of this problem is that the students who are without connections become easy victims to the Communists. So far as credit is due, the Communists are to be commended, inasmuch as they are active, alert and vigilant in their endeavours to get into touch with these students. The only method in which this danger can be defeated is by the other Churches taking their stand in the same way. We could then deal with the large pool of students who are not directly associated with them. At any rate, we can derive some satisfaction from the knowledge that there definite work is going on; that offices have been set apart specifically to deal with these students and that in large numbers of homes they are given a very warm and cordial welcome. When I was in China I came into contact with a large number of students who had been in touch with the Communists in this country. On the other hand, I met many who had been associated with our Churches on this side. Of course, that is the work the Churches should do. I think the noble Earl who introduced this Motion is to be congratulated. He has done something which will help to the very much more strongly than it is the bond of friendly relations between the Mother Country and her Dominions.
4.14 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, this is a most important subject, and I hope your Lordships will forgive my intervening for a few minutes. As a university teacher of nearly twenty-five years standing, I have had this problem brought

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frequently to my attention. Its importance was brought home to me most effectively on the occasion when I had the honour to be one of the representatives of your Lordships' House in the Parliamentary Mission to India, shortly after the last war—and in that Mission the noble Earl who sits opposite was a comrade. It was interesting, encouraging, and indeed inspiring, to find how much the good will, which undoubtedly existed towards this country throughout India at that time, depended on friendships which had been created years before on the part of the leaders of India when the were students in England. If, among the many elements which enabled us to bring India through that great constitutional crisis and enabled her to secure her independence amidst feelings of good will and to maintain her position in the Commonwealth, there is one which is of special significance, that is undoubtedly the one.
On one occasion we had the advantage of a long talk with Mahatma Gandhi, and he emphasised that some of the happiest years of his life had been those which he had spent in London. He mentioned the great friendship which he had received from people in London, particularly from families into which he had been received. With a smile he said that when London was being bombarded he felt in a way as if it were his native city that was being subjected to attack from the enemy. That was a remarkable statement from one often considered a foe, and it was obviously not produced for the occasion, because when one reads that fascinating book of his, My Experiments with Truth, he deals in detail with his life in London. And it is quite obvious that it left a profound impression upon him. From that interview with the Leader of the Hindu Congress Movement we went to see the late Mr. Jinnah, who said almost the same thing: that he had never had a happier time than when he was a student for the Bar, living in Hampstead. Indeed, he confessed that on one occasion he had almost retired from Indian politics to settle down in Hampstead as a private citizen, because that was the part of the world where he felt he could be most happy.
Can there be any question that the good will with which that tremendous constitutional revolution took place—be-
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cause it was no less—and the success with which it was carried through was based to a considerable extent on friendship and good will, dating back from the student years of these outstanding political leaders in India and Pakistan? I have taken those two only its typical examples, but it would be equally true of many of the other eminent Indian and Pakistani statesmen who at the present time are in charge of the political destinies of those great countries. A similar situation now exists. The statesmen of the future, not only from the Commonwealth but from the Colonies in Africa—which to-day are where India was a generation ago—the men who will be the leaders of those countries, are students in our universities and technical colleges in this country at the present time. The friendships and impressions which they take back to their countries depend on what is going on now in homes and institutions in this country.
The noble Earl, Lord Lucan, has done a great service in bringing this matter to the attention of your Lordships' House, and, I hope, to the attention of the public. The British Council and the religious bodies which have been referred to by the noble Earl and by my noble friend Lord Ammon are undoubtedly doing most valuable work Valuable as the organisational work of these bodies is, the really essential thing is to get these students into families was encouraged when the noble Earl said that some 1,700 introductions to families had been obtained by the British Council. That was, I thought, the most encouraging feature in his speech, because it is in our family life that those really enduring friendships are formed. It is there that these people whose skins are a different colour from our own realise that in this country there are very large numbers of men and women who are prepared to throw the colour bar out of the window, and to treat these young men and woolen on equal terms. And that is what really counts. It is on that basis that we shall build up the ramparts of the free world against Communism; on no other basis can it be successfully done. I hope the Press will report this debate, so that the newspapers which go out into the homes of England can show that here is a work which everybody can do if only a little effort is put into this matter. It is not an expensive business to take an occasional student into one's home. Their needs are small

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and their tastes frugal. If we can bring this home to our own people we shall, as I say, have done a great day's work towards building up the ramparts of the free world against the attacks of the Communists.
4.22 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, I suppose there is no member of your Lordships' House who will deny that the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, has introduced this afternoon a Motion which is of considerable interest to noble Lords in all parts of the House. I am glad that he has seen fit to bring forward this matter, because it gives me an opportunity to indicate to the House some of the measures that have been or are being taken for the benefit of Colonial students in this country. If I wished to be remarkably short in some of my observations (and indeed I shall not delay the House for very long) I could reply to the debate in one sentence, by saying that Her Majesty's Government are in agreement with all the utterances that have been made by the noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon. But I think the House would expect me to enter in some further detail, to try to give an outline of the measures we are taking in order to make the position of Colonial students in this country easier in every way.
I have for long maintained that the responsibility which rests upon my right honourable friend for the government of the Colonial territories is not limited solely to securing good government. Its object extends, as I see it, a great deal further than that. Over the years there have been advances towards self-government in many territories. Each extension has been gained only after the individual territory has had experience in the management of its own affairs. But that management has depended in almost every single case on the steady improvement in all kinds and types of education. It is therefore important that the facilities which have been made available in this country, and that the services which are given by the universities, colleges, training institutions and trades and professions, should be utilised, as they are, by men and women from the Colonial territories.
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Now, it is not only the student's actual studies which are important while he is in this country. The welfare of the student during his stay must play a vital and important part. In this direction so much can be won and so much can be lost. As I believe, we in this land are still the leaders of modern thought and expression in the world; and, that being so, there is a duty incumbent upon us to offer a sincere and genuine welcome to students from the Commonwealth and Empire who are, as the noble Earl said, strangers within our midst. I think your Lordships will agree that most noble Lords on their visits to foreign countries are more often than not affected strongly by their first impressions. If that be so, how much greater must be the force of the impressions of this country left upon the minds of Colonial peoples?
Her Majesty's Government, as I think most noble Lords readily recognise, have no direct responsibility for Commonwealth students as such. The position of Colonial students is, of course. somewhat different. I have no desire to delay the House on this point, but I will say that the responsibility for students from the Commonwealth countries rests almost entirely on the High Commissioners. It is true that many Commonwealth students benefit from the facilities which are provided by the British Council, who are always ready to give Commonwealth students every assistance. There are also the many voluntary organisations (they have already been mentioned during the course of this discussion) which make a valuable contribution to the welfare of the Commonwealth students.
If I may give your Lordships a few figures of the growth in the numbers of Colonial students in this country, you will see how they have grown in recent years. In 1939 there were only 300 Colonial students in this country. To-day there are 5,154. About 1,200 of these are scholarship students, and the remainder are financed privately. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, nearly 50 per cent. of these come from West Africa, and the remainder from places scattered about through the rest of the Colonial territories. Of that number, about one-third have undertaken all forms of medical training, including nursing, optics, and veterinary science. It is true that a very large number are engaged in law,

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although I feel that a large number of them have little chance of making a career for themselves in this profession when they go back to their respective countries. The remainder are engaged on every variety of activity, which can become, over a short or a long period of time, of the utmost benefit to the Colonial territories concerned.
It is also true, as was said by all three speakers from the Opposition Benches, that many of these students engaged in studies in this country to-day are the future leaders in their own particular territories The noble Earl, Lord Lucan, mentioned that in January, 1950, the former Secretary of State for the Colonies invited the British Council to undertake certain responsibilities for the welfare of Colonial students. As a result, the British Council are now responsible, subject, of course, at all times to the responsibility of the Colonial Secretary to Parliament, for the reception, accommodation and welfare of Colonial students. A grant of £455,000 was made available from the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund, and it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to reduce tint figure in any way whatever.
Up to date, I understand, the British Council have met some 99 per cent. of Colonial students who have arrived in this country. The students are met personally by the British Council representatives at the seaport, at the airport or at the railhead, wherever the arrival may be, and arrangements are made to find them first-night accommodation on their arrival at the town concerned. After arrival, these students are found accommodation in the university halls of residence, in hostels, or in lodgings. And here I agree at once with the noble Earl that, if it were possible (unhappily, it is not at the present time) it would be valuable to have an increased number these students within the university halls of residence. In addition, the British Council have a register of about 1,000 recommended addresses in the London area alone where Colonial students are welcome to stay. Generally speaking, the British Council have never found any difficulty in finding accommodation for every recommended student who comes to them for assistance.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, who emphasised to your Lordships his belief that it would be far more convenient and better for the welfare of
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the student concerned if he found accommodation within British family life. There, undoubtedly, the noble Lord is perfectly correct: we on this side of the House are in wholehearted agreement with him that the more students we can get into British families and into British homes, the better it will be for the welfare of the students themselves. The British Council at the moment have two hostels in London at which Colonial students can live, and I hope that at some time in the future it may be possible for a third hostel to be provided within the Metropolitan area. I understand, however, that Moray Lodge, which was made available to students last year, is unfortunately no longer available.
I turn to deal briefly with the Consultative Committee on the Welfare of Colonial Students which was set up by the present Secretary of State, in fulfilment of a pledge given by the former Secretary of State in another place. That Committee affords a means for the Colonial Office to be kept in touch with students and their opinions, for most of the Colonial student unions in this country are represented on that body. In addition, we have one member from each of the political Parties in another place. We also have a representative of London University. It happens to fall to my lot to preside over that Committee. So far, we have held three meetings, and I can assure y our Lordships that the students have not hesitated to voice their opinions freely, frankly and fully. I think we have done a certain amount of good work, but a great deal more lies ahead which I think we could usefully accomplish.
I want to deal next with one point which was made by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, on the question of political education. Undoubtedly, there is evidence to show that there an; undesirable political elements in this country which have been endeavouring to influence Colonial students; but, so far as I can trace, there is very little evidence to show that they have been successful in any degree on a wide scale. I myself think, if I may be hold enough to suggest it, that it is very important, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, rightly pointed out, that the main political Parties in this country should interest themselves in the students and help them to understand fully the

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British way of life and, more particularly, the British form of government.
I come now to deal with other points which noble Lords were good enough to raise. There is the question which always comes to the fore in any discussion upon Colonial students—namely, the sponsorship of recommended students vis-à-vis private students. I understand that in every large Colony machinery has been set up, and is in operation, whereby the students can be recommended by their respective Governments. It cannot be made compulsory for all students to use that particular existing machinery. Therefore, it does happen from time to time that private students arrive in this country without any previous preparation and without knowledge of the conditions which are likely to prevail over here. It follows almost automatically that there are difficulties of admission to universities and elsewhere. That difficulty might not occur if the private student would make full use of the procedure provided within the Colonial territories. Wide publicity for this procedure has been given in all the Colonial territories, but I think that as a result of the discussions which we have had here this afternoon there may still be room for further improvement. I will certainly ask my right honourable friend to call the attention of the Colonial Governments to this particular question again.
I now wish to answer a question addressed to me by the noble Earl about the views of Her Majesty's Government on restrictive covenants in leases and discrimination against coloured people. I think your Lordships will agree with me that, if we desire close and intimate bonds of friendship between each and every member of the Commonwealth and Empire, it is necessary, in the first place, to inculcate the spirit of good relationship among us all. I therefore believe that it is undesirable for a landlord of any premises to attach a restrictive covenant to a lease which debars a tenant from affording accommodation to coloured persons. This question is closely connected with the racial discrimination which, unhappily, is practised (and we all know it is practised) by certain persons in this country. That discrimination we equally deplore, but,
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as in the particular case of the restrictive covenants, I believe that it can be removed only by close association between all creeds and all colours, by friendship and by understanding.
I am informed by those better able to judge than I am that there has undoubtedly been an improvement recently in the breaking down of colour prejudices. Nevertheless, much still remains to be done. I feel, however, that noble Lords would not in any way wish to exaggerate the story, nor indeed to overlook the fact that Colonial students in this country, in a vast number of cases, are receiving a welcome into English homes. At the same time, I am pretty certain that, in many cases, legislation on the lines of prohibiting restrictive covenants in leases would prove more of an embarrassment than an advantage; in any event, in my humble judgment it would not be enforceable. I cannot help feeling that the best safeguard must lie in a healthy state of public opinion which discountenances such practices—and that can be assisted and won only by a wider and more intimate knowledge of what common citizenship really means.
LORD OGMORE: I can assure the noble Earl that this question of restrictive covenants is very important, not only to Colonial, but also to Commonwealth people over here. If what he has said on the subject represents the view of Her Majesty's Government, I hope that he will make it known to students, and to the Commonwealth representatives, that there are reasons for our acting as we are, and that it is not due merely to the fact that we are too idle to pass legislation through Parliament.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I will certainly do that. What is more, I will add to it. I would point out, with great respect to the noble Lord, that the opinion of Her Majesty's Government on this particular point is absolutely and precisely identical with the opinion of the late Government, as expressed by Sir Hartley Shawcross himself in the House of Commons.
My Lords, I will just briefly make one point of which the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, reminded me. There are, as your Lordships know, a large number of overseas students who are at the moment studying law in the

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Inns of Court, and I am glad to say that the Inns of Court jointly have appointed an adviser to overseas students who also acts as a welfare officer. The welfare officer has a small fund available at his disposal for assisting students as necessary, and he is prepared at all times to give advice on matters concerning studies and lodgings. There are two further points which I should like to mention before I conclude. The majority of Colonials in the Services in this country today, some 400 to 500, are serving in the Royal Air Force, and are afforded the same welfare facilities as all the other men within the Armed Services. Within the Colonial Office we have appointed a Jamaican Royal Air Force liaison officer, who is attached to the Service, and who periodically visits the Royal Air Force stations throughout the country to see the men, and to have personal interviews and discissions with them on any domestic or personal matters that may arise.
Lastly, I would turn to the point which was made, I think, by the noble Earl who moved this Motion, concerning the importance of further club facilities for Colonial students in London and, I suppose, elsewhere as well. I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Earl that it is necessary for further clubs to be formed within London and the large towns and cities throughout the country. It is also encouraging to find that many of the Colonial Governments have already provided establishments for their own students in London—such as Malaya Hall and East Africa House. We have every reason to hope that other Colonial Governments will follow the example which has already been set by Malaya and East Africa, and that further clubs will be opened for the benefit of students who are temporarily resident in this country. The noble Earl also asked me about the Imperial Institute, which I understand is making available club facilities which it is anxious to expand. I can only say that every possible assistance will be given to them. I hope that I have answered most of the questions which noble Lords who have spoken have addressed to me. I think this debate has been of immense value in assisting your Lordships generally to ascertain and
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understand all that is being done for Colonial students by Her Majesty's Government. At the same time, it is of interest to note that the views and expressions of noble Lords on both sides of the House are very similar, and that we are all equally anxious to do everything possible for the younger generation who, before many years are out, may well hold in their hands the future destinies of their respective territories.
4.45 p.m.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, as I expected, there was no atmosphere of controversy about this debate, although I hardly thought that I should hear the spokesman for Her Majesty's Government say that he agreed with every word that had been said from these Benches. I am very grateful to the noble Earl for the answers he has given, which are entirely satisfactory. Possibly I had not made clear my point with regard to the club in the Imperial Institute. I understand that there is now a lounge available for use, but the suggestion I made was for a much more ambitious scheme —for a club with facilities for entertainment. I entirely agree that colour prejudice is not a thing in regard to which one can legislate. I would not offer an opinion on the legal side concerning restrictive covenants, but a decision regarding colour prejudice is one for the ordinary man and woman of this country, and I think I can say this afternoon that we in this House have done all we can to give proper guidance in relation to that decision. We have ventilated this subject and we have drawn attention to the directions in which further work can be done. Her Majesty's Government have given their assurance, which I was delighted to hear, alit they have no intention of reducing the grant. My Lords, the rest lies outside this House. I should like it emphasised that this is a sphere in which every man and woman in this country can play his or her part in cementing the bon is of the Commonwealth. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

AGRICULTURE (FERTILISERS) BILL
4.47 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, the origin of this Bill lies in the undertaking that my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture gave in November last that he would introduce a subsidy for phosphatic fertilisers. The need for this subsidy has arisen as a result of the continued steep rise in the prices of all fertilisers and particularly phosphates. The last half of the war-time subsidy ended on June 30 last year, and it was calculated that this would increase farmers' expenditure by about £10,000,000 annually. This was known during the Annual Review which took place at the beginning of 1951, and these increases were taken into account in the settlement which was reached. Between the time of the review and last November, there were further big increases in freight rates and the cost of imported materials; consequently, fertiliser prices rose again by rather over £9,000,000 and on November 29 my right honourable friend the Minister announced in another place the results of the Special Review which had taken place during November. He said that although there was this steep increase in the price of fertilisers which could have been taken into account at the review, he felt that the most effective way of dealing, with it was by introducing a subsidy which would encourage the proper use of fertilisers.
Since then, however, there have been still further increases—though on a much smaller scale—and these were included in an order made by my noble friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that came into force on February 1, 1952. The result of this was that the farmers' fertiliser costs—on the assumption that they would use approximately the same as in 1950—would have been about £10,000,000 more than the additional cost included in the Annual Review of 1951. It is therefore to help the farmer in coping with this increase in fertiliser costs that I am asking your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading this afternoon.
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The Government, having decided that a Bill to authorise a fertiliser subsidy was necessary, thought it prudent to prepare it in such a way that it would provide the necessary authority for any other assistance of this kind which might from time to time be necessary. This, in effect, means that the powers under the Bill are not limited to specific sanction for a particular subsidy for one year, although this was all that had actually been promised when the Minister of Agriculture made his announcement in November. I should make it clear now that no undertaking beyond that made by the Minister of Agriculture has been given or is being given, and what may happen in the future will depend on the needs of agriculture as they arise. But, if this Bill is passed, the Government will have the necessary powers to introduce any type of fertiliser subsidy that may prove to be necessary.
The Bill provides for contributions to be made to the cost of fertilisers acquired by farmers, horticulturists, allotment holders, smallholders and associations of such persons in accordance with schemes made under the Bill. Separate schemes may be made for England and Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland, or joint schemes for any two of these countries or all of them. These contributions would be made in the form of direct payments to farmers and others as in the lime subsidy scheme or, alternatively, if there were special circumstances making it desirable, payments could be made at the source—that is, paid through the manufacturers, importers or distributors of the fertilisers. The Bill sets a limit to the contributions that could be paid for any or all fertilisers, and this is fixed at one half of the expenditure on the fertilisers by the farmers or other persons benefiting. The Bill provides that the first scheme may extend from July 1, 1951 to June 30, 1952 only; this, of course, is because the fertiliser year runs from July 1 to June 30. Any subsequent scheme might have a maximum life of two years, unless it were extended by a varying scheme, in which case the extension would also be limited to a period of not more than two years. The life of the first scheme is to be limited to one year in order to implement, immediately the Bill is passed, the promise that was given of a special

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phosphatic fertiliser subsidy for the year July 1, 1951, to June 30, 1952.
Noble Lords will observe that any scheme under the Bill will be made by statutory instrument, and that the Affirmative Resolution procedure will be employed in every case. The Government proposes that the first scheme to be made when the Bill is passed should be limited to phosphatic fertilisers, and that, broadly speaking, the contributions would be on a scale that would relieve farmers and others of approximately one-third of their expenditure on these fertilisers. The scheme will also cover to the same extent the phosphatic element in compound fertilisers. In order that the smallest farmers may have the advantage of the subsidy, it is intended that the minimum quantity for which contributions will be paid will be as small as possible, and it is likely that the limit will be as low as four or five cwt. of fertiliser Users of even smaller quantities will be able to obtain their share of the subsidy if they are members of appropriate bodies. The choice of phosphatic fertilisers for inclusion in the first scheme is due mainly to the heavy increase in phosphates as compared with other types. The increase in nitrogen and potash has been approximately 20 per cent. whilst phosphates have increased by almost 80 per cent.
LORD LLEWELLIN: In cost?
LORD CARRINGT'ON: Yes, in cost. Since we intend when the Bill is passed to subsidise phosphates by a third, it will be possible to equalise the price increase over the three main classes of fertilisers. The Government is satisfied that any increase in the use of phosphatic fertilisers that this scheme will bring about can be met from available supplies. Noble Lords may like to know what alterations were made in this Bill during its passage through another place. A definition of "agricultural land" was added in order to make it quite clear that market gardens, nursery grounds and such like are included within the scope of the Bill. The original period of five years in respect of which statutory instruments may be made—in default of extensions—was replaced by a first period of one year and subsequent two-year periods. Also, the Affirmative Resolution procedure re-
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placed the Negative Resolution procedure for securing Parliamentary approval of all schemes to be made under the Bill.
Finally, my Lords, I should like to apologise to the House for the speed with which we are asking your Lordships to pass this Bill through all its stages. Noble Lords will be aware, however, of the reasons why the Bill has taken rather longer than was expected to come up from another place, and it is most important that we should get the Bill on the Statute Book as soon as possible. The Bill has a retrospective effect in that the subsidy under the first scheme will be payable on fertilisers bought since July 1, 1951. This means that there will be a large number of outstanding claims to be met for past purchases. Unless those elegible have in early opportunity of making their application for purchases made during the last nine months, there is a danger that they may mislay their receipts and accounts which it is necessary they should keep in order to receive the subsidy. Although, in normal circumstances, we should not ask the House to pass this Bill in only two days, I think your Lordships will agree that it is in the interests of agriculture that the first scheme should be made as quickly as possible and therefore that the Bill should receive the Royal Assent tomorrow. This is, I think, a non-controversial measure which does justice to the farmers in a way most calculated to increase production of food, and I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will give it a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Carrington.)
4.59 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am very glad that my noble friend Lord Carrington, whose speech we have just heard—and with which even my professional instinct as a fault-finder has been unable to find anything wrong—forestalled a complaint which was on the tip of my tongue and which I should certainly otherwise have made about the haste with which this Bill is being taken through all its stages in this House. But I am perfectly satisfied by the reasons which the noble Lord gave for the urgency of the Bill. I am certain that the Government will not treat this Bill as a precedent and that we shall have in the future as much time as that to which we are accustomed

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to consider legislative proposals which are submitted to us. I agree with the noble Lord opposite that this is a good Bill. It is so, in the first place, because it will stimulate production of crops and livestock. Without the subsidy proposed in the Bill, I have no doubt at all that there would have been a serious decline in the productivity of both grass and arable land.
There has been a sharp fall in the use of every type of fertiliser since the subsidy was removed, a fall which was accentuated when the price went up so sharply last year. Going round the country last year, I noticed that farmers complained more about the price they were paying for fertilisers than they did about any of the other recent increases in their costs. In many cases, I found that they were cutting their costs by using a smaller quantity of fertilisers on the land. This is far too easy a method of economy and I am sure it is a short-sighted one, because the value of the produce would have more than compensated them for the increased price of the fertilisers they usually bought. In one area I remember finding that fertiliser merchants had accumulated large stocks which they did not know how to dispose of, because the orders they were getting from local farmers were often only half of what they had been the year before. I am talking of 1951, when I was at the Ministry of Agriculture. That experience made me feel forcibly the position in the country as a whole. Another useful point about this fertiliser subsidy is that poor soil takes the largest amount of fertilisers. The pasture and rough grazing in the hill and upland areas, to which we are looking for more sheep and cattle, will not carry the large number of animals we require without a very great improvement in the quality of the grass. Most of the hill and upland farmers are small men who could not afford to carry through this improvement, even with the help of the Livestock Rearing and Hill Farming Acts, if they had to pay the present market prices for fertilisers.
The second reason why I think this is a useful Bill is because I believe the form of the subsidy will give the public value for their money. The Government might have dealt with the rise in the price of fertilisers in another way. They might have added
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£10,000,000 to the increased costs of farmers in 1951, and have taken this additional sum into account in the course of the annual price review in fixing farm prices for the current year. But an increase in farm prices, desirable as it may be, in many cases benefits equally the man who either will not, or cannot, produce more from his land and the man who grows more in response to the price incentive. I am sure that the payment of the subsidy in this way will be highly productive—much more than a subsidy of the same amount on the price of farm products, because it will help the small farmer who would not otherwise use fertilisers in sufficient quantities. I am glad that in the course of his remarks the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, explained the reason for limiting the first scheme under the Bill to phosphatic fertilisers. The use of a particular fertiliser obviously should depend on the character of the soil and not on the relative price of different fertilisers. It is important that farmers should realise that, in spite of the subsidy, phosphatic fertilisers will not be cheaper than nitrogenous fertilisers or balanced artificial manures, which are far more suitable on certain types of land. I hope that the Minister will consider the desirability of making schemes to cover other fertilisers in time to come, should the need arise. The Bill gives him power to do so.
The aim of the Bill is to encourage the use of fertilisers. There is one matter I should like to mention in the hope that the Government will consider it and, if they think it a good suggestion, will be willing to help the farmers. I remember visiting a hill-top in Wales where the farmer told me that his grass had been greatly improved over a wide area, which could not possibly be reached by a surface route, by the spreading of a fertiliser from the air. I should like the Minister to find out—and I am sure he could—how many hill areas there are in Wales, in Scotland and in Northern England, which are inaccessible by road or track, where rough grazing could be much improved by the dropping of a suitable fertiliser from the air. I have no doubt that this information could be obtained from the local advisers of the Minister's Department. There must be many other hill-tops similar to the one I saw in Wales. The farmer I spoke to was a farmer in a very big way, but, of course, the ordinary farmer could not

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afford the expense of manuring his land by this method. I have sometimes wondered whether the Government might not secure the co-operation of the R.A.F. for this operation. It may seem a fanciful speculation, but if we really mean business about increasing home supplies of meat we must examine every possible method of getting it. This system has worked well in New Zealand, where it has been widely used, and I cannot see on the face of it any reason why it should not be used far more widely in this country.
Finally, I should like to congratulate the Minister on subsection (5) of Clause 4, to which the noble Lord referred in his speech. I am sorry to refer to the Bill without mentioning the specific matter. It is the question of the use of the positive procedure in dealing with orders for schemes. This change took place during the passage of the Bill through another place. The Minister had second thoughts while the Bill was under way, and I am sure he was right to change his mind. It is not unusual for the Opposition to prefer the positive procedure, because it offers more targets for criticism, and for the Government to prefer the negative procedure, because it is administratively convenient. If I may say so, the Minister behaved as a good Parliamentarian in saying that these arguments were trifling and that his position must be based solely on the ground of Parliamentary procedure. The choice between these two methods depends upon the character of a Bill. This is not a Bill to give the Minister specific powers, requiring only administrative orders in matters of detail connected with their discharge, but a Bill to give the Minister a general power to make schemes and fix the contribution from public funds towards them. Parliament should have the opportunity of considering the content of every scheme made under this enabling power. I am very glad that that is what has happened, and I look forward to the time when the Minister will submit those schemes. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that we shall do all we can to facilitate the Bill during its remaining stages. We entirely concur with him in regarding it as a non-controversial and extremely useful measure.
5.9 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I should like to give my support to this measure, because I believe that it is right to give this subsidy and that this is the right way to do it. If there is an agreement about prices it is obviously right to take steps to cover any additional factor that could not have been taken into account when the price review was held. We want to get as much produce as possible from our land, and to bring under cultivation extra marginal land. If we encourage people by paying one-third of the cost of fertilisers, they are more likely to buy them than if we increase prices a little more in the price review. Therefore I think this is the right way to proceed. At the beginning of the war, when we wanted all the food we could get from our own country, we started with the lime subsidy, with the object of getting some of our land into better fettle for the war that eventually came. To-day, of course, war or no war, we need this extra produce from our own soil because of the difficulties of our international financial position. For this reason, I am certain that we ought to give farmers every encouragement to use these fertilisers on the land, and especially the proper ones, even though they are more expensive, and to give them this help to do so.
The noble Earl who has just sat down referred to the practice in parts of New Zealand of spraying these fertilisers from the air. The noble Lord, Lord Wise, was with me in New Zealand on one occasion when we saw an aircraft performing that particular function. It is an expensive way of spraying the ground, but it may be impossible to get over the ground it is desired to fertilise in any other way than by aeroplane. There is the cost of maintenance of the aircraft, and the cost of the vast amount of petrol it takes to run an aircraft for two or three hours going up and down. Moreover, you must choose your day, because if there is a strong wind blowing when spraying is done from the air the fertiliser will not be spread evenly. I fancy that the Royal Air Force would completely turn down the noble Earl's suggestion that they should be employed on this particular project. It may interest the House to know, however, that in the early days of the war, when we feared that the Germans might start using poison gas, either on ourselves or on our Russian

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Allies, appliances were made to be attached to some of our bomber aircraft, and we tried to disguise their purpose by pretending that they were for spreading fertilisers and other things over the ground. I doubt whether the Royal Air Force would be very helpful, although the noble Earl's suggestion is an ingenious one. There are, of course, some places where machines are used for training pilots, and they might well be used for this other purpose at the same time. I would commend the Under-Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture to take up this suggestion with the Royal Air Force to see whether some of these training machines cannot give a helping hand. I am only sorry that the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Air is not in the House to hear this suggestion.
5.14 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, I desire on this occasion to be quite brief, because on both sides of the House there is general agreement on this small Bill. It has already been said that the Bill was improved during its passage through another place, and I do not think it will be necessary for noble Lords on this side of the House to suggest many Amendments. When the Bill was discussed in another place, certainly on the Second Reading, a considerable amount of latitude was given to the Members there to wander round and round all over the agricultural field. Remarks were passed on that occasion which we on this side of the House should not let pass without comment. I think it is recognised by the farming community as a whole, and certainly by members of your Lordships' House, that those remarks did not represent a true picture of what we believe the agricultural position to be. I, for one, who have been interested all my life in practising agriculture and land matters of that sort, disagree entirely with what was said generally about the farming community, and what has been said in the last few months. I would say, here and now, that I hope that sort of speech will stop for ever.
There are one or two matters in the Bill to which I should like to refer. I must say to the Government that I am not at all happy about the wording of Clause 1. Part of that clause is excellent. But if your Lordships read the
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clause, leaving out certain words, you see that it says:
"Contributions out of moneys provided by Parliament may be made"—
and here is the point—
"… for relieving occupiers of agricultural land of a part of the expenditure.…"
I do not like the word "relieving." I feel that some other form of words could have been found, because the use of the word "relief" or "relieving" opens the door to comment upon the inefficiency of the farming industry, and on the doles which have been meted out to that industry in days gone by. In my view, it would be much better to use some such word as "repayment." The Bill has reached such a stage that probably we could not amend it, but for future guidance I think the word "relief" in connection with farmers, who are, indeed, playing a great part in the life of this nation, might be left out of our Bills. The end of the sentence I have quoted from Clause 1 shows the need and the use of the Bill—namely,
"to improve the fertility of the soil."
I believe that what we all have in mind, in this House and throughout the country, is that we must take every possible step to improve the fertility of our soil and the productive efforts of our farming community in order to augment the food supply of the nation.
A further point in the Bill of which I do not really approve is that it deals rather piecemeal with the needs of the agricultural industry. In a desire to stabilise our agricultural prosperity I would far rather that we produced all-embracing and comprehensive schemes. To my mind, it is not a good thing that we are now dealing with one portion of the industry and one expenditure of the farmers. I believe that it is necessary for the future to produce a comprehensive scheme for a balanced agriculture on a long-term basis. We shall then be doing what is necessary by giving to the farmers of the country a knowledge of what they may expect over a long period of years. I do not think we should deal with this matter piecemeal and introduce what I would term stopgap legislation. There is another difficulty in regard to this. By this Bill we are paying a direct subsidy to the farmer for a portion of his artificial manure. The expenditure on his other artificial manures is dealt with in the

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February Review of Prices, if my knowledge on that particular point is correct. I hope that if we. pay an amount to the farmer, either directly or through his merchants, as is suggested in this Bill, then the other expenditure on artificial manures which the farmer has to undergo will be taken completely out of the February Review of Prices, so that there is no question of duplicating the matter of the expenditure on artificial manures.
I wish to ask the Government a question which I felt was not entirely satisfactorily dealt with in another place; that is, whether there is a sufficiency or phosphatic manures. I believe that that is important, because I have no doubt that by reason of this Bill there will be a fairly heavy run on phosphatic manures, and on compounds of which phosphates form a part, and we must be certain that a supply of those manures is available to meet the demand which must arise. Without detaining your Lordships further, I want to say to the Government that I hope they will keep an eye—and a very critical eye—on the question of the rising cost of manures. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the need for this Bill arose primarily from the fact that phosphates have increased in cost—by, I believe, 80 per cent., as against a 20 per cent. rise in the cost of other artificial manures. It is within our knowledge that the manufacturers and suppliers of artificial manures have been batting on quite a good wicket since the subsidy was removed a few months ago. It is necessary, therefore, not only from the point of view of this Bill and the public purse—because we may have to pay an extra price by reason of the increase in prices—but also from the point of view of the farming industry itself, that a very definite control should be exercised in regard to the rising costs of these artificial manures, whether they are phosphate or some other kind. From our point of view, as has already been said by my noble friend on the front Bench, we on this side of the House shall facilitate the passage of the Bill. I know that it is necessary to bring the scheme into operation, and I hope that it will serve the purpose, as it sets out to do, of improving the fertility of the soil of Britain.
5.24 p.m.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: My Lords, like previous noble Lords, I give this Bill a very hearty welcome. One knows from experience how important for the increasing of production from our land is the proper use of fertilisers. Indeed, I am informed that in the last twelve years the use of fertilisers has increased threefold. Part of that is, of course, accounted for by the increased area which is under cultivation, but in the main I think it is owing to farmers becoming more fertiliser conscious. Unfortunately, there has been a tendency recently to reduce the amount of money spent on fertilisers, and that has been caused largely by the prospective and the actual increase in price.
I would agree that at the present juncture the utmost production is necessary from our land. Indeed, so far as one can see, the food situation, so far as home production is concerned, is nearly as serious as it was during the war. I do not want to go into great detail on the Bill, because I am speaking more as the Chairman of Rothamsted Experimental Station which, as your Lordships are no doubt aware, is the home of the fertiliser and has, through its 100 years or more of existence, acquired a great deal of knowledge upon the subject of the use of fertilisers. What I have to say has come largely from conversations with members of the staff of that Institute. I wish to say a word or two about the direction in which the subsidy is to go—that is to say, in regard to the type of fertiliser on which there should be a subsidy. The noble Lord who introduced the Bill informed us that the first scheme will be applied to the use of phosphatic fertilisers, and he has given us extremely sound reasons for that decision—partly in fulfilment of a pledge and, of course, on account of the extra cost of phosphatic fertilisers as compared with other forms of fertiliser, which makes it quite clear that that is for the time being the right direction in which to apply the subsidy. There are other reasons, to which I will come later, as to why phosphates should be the fertiliser to be considered.
Before I go any further, I think a few relevant facts might be of interest to your Lordships, and they have a bearing on the arguments I wish to use in a minute or two. First of all, with regard to phosphates. It is a fact that only 20 per cent.

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of the water soluble phosphates in phosphatic manures are recovered in the next few years in the subsequent crops. The remainder of the water soluble phosphate up to comparatively recently was thought to remain in an unavailable condition in the soil. As a matter of fact, that is not so. It has now been realised that it becomes slowly available over a long period of years. In fact, there is one plot at Rothamsted where there can still be seen in the crop—it is an exhaustion crop; that is to say, no fertiliser is put on—the results from phosphates applied fifty years ago. Therefore there is a slow release from the soil over a very long period of that otherwise unavailable phosphate, and in any soils which have had phosphates applied there is a small reserve available all the time. To some extent the same remarks apply to potash. Quite an appreciable quantity of the potash which is applied as fertiliser is carried over from year to year. So far as nitrogen is concerned—I want to emphasise this—with the nitrogen applied as fertiliser there is no carry-over from year to year. Those are the facts with regard to the three main fertilisers which are required by plants.
Now there are one or two other facts which I think are of importance. The first is that the response in increased crops from the application of nitrogenous fertiliser is far greater than it is from the application of phosphatic fertiliser. Early in the war a careful survey was made of all fertiliser experiments in this country and in Northern Europe from the year 1900 until. I think, 1940, and from that were extracted certain very interesting figures. So far as cereals were concerned, with sulphate of ammonia the increased crop from the application of the first cwt. was three cwt., and from the second cwt. it was two cwt. The increase from the first cwt. of superphosphate applied was one-half cwt. of grain, and from the second cwt. one-third cwt. With potatoes the figures are somewhat different. Potatoes are grown on more highly fertilised land and therefore the figures are not so striking, But, even so, the figures for potatoes show up very much in favour of sulphate of ammonia. Clearly, money spent on nitrogenous manures will bring a quicker and greater return than money spent on any other fertiliser.
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Another relevant fact is a calculation made by some of the people who carried out the survey to which I referred. It showed that an additional 100,000 tons of nitrogen properly used in this country would give an overall increase in our total production from the land of 5 per cent., and that was worked out with 20,000 tons on cereals and 80,000 tons on grass. That, at the time the calculation was made, was, broadly speaking, the proportion of the two crops. That is important, and I will come back to this question of grass in a few moments. But I am informed that the extra quantities of nitrogen could certainly be used on the land for four or five years without any necessity for the increased use of phosphates or potash, because there are adequate reserves in the soil to stand up to it for that time at the very least. The extra use, therefore, would not do any harm to the actual soil for the time being—especially if the phosphates or potash were applied in small and frequent doses from a combine-drill, so that the fertiliser is placed near the seed where the seed can get hold of it easily.
As to the question of nitrogen and its use, more particularly on grass, I think this is an important matter; and I shall now leave the question of the cereal crop because that is simple. Grass in one form or another is the largest crop in this country. From the Survey of Fertiliser Practice which was carried out at Rothamsted in conjunction with the National Agricultural Advisory Service, it would appear that only about 15 per cent. of grass cut for hay and 10 per cent. of the grazed land in this country at present receives any nitrogen at all. There is, therefore, a field for increased production in that direction which might be extremely fruitful, provided there are the animals to make use of that additional production or the facilities for preserving in some form or another the extra production—either silage or dried grass, or something of that sort. This is rather a striking figure, showing how little a great many farmers realise the importance of getting the most out of their grassland. It is, I think, clear that at the appropriate moment the Ministry of Agriculture ought to turn their mind to some form of subsidy, and therefore of encouragement, of the greater use of nitrogen, in order to obtain in the easiest

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possible way, without harm—I emphasise that—a great increase in production from our land.
I am well aware that there are many difficulties. I have given a figure of 100,000 tons of additional nitrogen which would produce a 5 per cent. overall increase in our production. An additional 100,000 tons of nitrogen is just under 30 per cent. more than we are producing now. It is true that of our present-day production a certain amount is being exported, and I am not going to suggest that exports should be cut down for the benefit of British farmers, because if I did I should be embarking on extremely tempestuous seas. The matter is, I realise, very difficult. One knows that we have to export much of our produce to-day in order to pay for our imports. Over and above that, I believe that there are other difficulties regarding an increase of production to the extent which I suggest it ought to be increased. We have to face these grave difficulties, and all I can say is that I hope that Her Majesty's Government will seriously consider these points and see whether steps cannot be taken in the interests of increased production of foodstuffs in this country. I ask whether the Government should not consider taking vigorous steps to increase the manufacturing capacity of nitrogenous manure. I am sure that without an increase of that nature we shall not get the increased production which is so very necessary, and which, I think before many months are out, will be seen to be even more necessary than now.
5.39 p.m.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, debates in this House on agriculture are not only profitable to those who listen to them but are often much more united than debates in another place. This debate appears much more united than the discussion in another place yesterday on food subsidies. I should like to make a few remarks on the question of fertiliser subsidy. It is rather interesting that shortly after the General Election I had two lunches for farm tenants when they paid their rents. I asked them if they could make any suggestion as to how production on the estates could be increased. Their first suggestion was that there ought again to be a fertiliser subsidy because the prices of fertilisers
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were then so high that they felt that production would go down. I was very pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Wise, mention this question of the word "relief." We farmers are quite used to being told we are "feather-bedded," but I must say I personally have not noticed it. I think that the joint Parliamentary Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, might give attention to the substituting for the word "relief" of some such word as was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Wise—the word "repay" or even the word "reimburse." I cannot help feeling that the word "relief" appearing in this Bill is rather objectionable.
I particularly welcome this fertiliser subsidy because it applies to all land. We have heard this afternoon that the poor and marginal land requires more fertiliser than the good land, and we have even heard that hill land can be fertilised by aeroplanes. I myself have heard of that sort of land being fertilised by aeroplane. I think it would be expensive to do it by aeroplane, but when the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, replies perhaps he will reassure me on that and subsidise the aeroplane as well as the fertiliser. In regard to hill land, marginal land and good or fiat land, I think it is a fact that the repayment of the benefits of the subsidy on the good land will produce a much larger overall volume of food than the repayment of the benefits of the subsidy on the marginal land or even the hill land. Therefore I am glad to think that this subsidy will apply to all the different types of land. I think we cart look for the largest volume of increase from the good land. Arising from that point, I was also pleased to hear the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, ask a question about nitrogenous fertilisers, because he speaks with such great authority, not only as a large farmer himself but as Chair-man of the Rothamsted Agricultural Station. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, will call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to his remarks—although no doubt they will not require their attention to be called to it.
Another point in regard to farmers is that very often I find that they buy fertilisers and leave them lying in bags about their farm buildings and do not put them on to the land. I do tot know whether it is possible to see that the fertilisers

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provided partly by this subsidy will actually be put on the land. That reminds me of a story I was told by a gentleman who came back from Tanganyika during the currency of the ground-nuts scheme. He told me that just before he left, a train load of cement arrived for building houses. When this train load of cement arrived, they put it on the ground-nuts in order to fertilise them. Another train load was shortly due to arrive, this time of fertilisers. I asked him whether they built houses with that. He said that luckily he came on holiday back to England before the second train load arrived. I am glad that the definition of "agricultural land" in Clause 5 (2) does not include houses! I would not suggest that it should be extended in that way.
I have very little more to say. I am glad to hear the noble Lord say that the Bill should be put through all its stages quickly, because during the last few days we have had such springlike weather that sowing will be starting or going on all the time, and farmers must know their exact financial position in regard to fertilisers. Therefore I will not stand between other noble Lords and the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, who is to reply to the debate. I welcome the advent of this Bill and I hope that it will pass through quickly, before tomorrow evening.
5.44 p.m.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, I am happy to join in the general welcome which has been extended to this Bill from this side of the House. Of course, one welcomes it, but with regard to these small measures (they are admitted to be small) we always get a feeling that they savour of being sops and palliatives, rather like those the industry suffered from in the years before the war. In some way, we get the feeling that these measures which take so much time are standing in the way of the grand strategy that is needed at this vital moment in the history of our food production. Nobody doubts the tremendous importance of the need for maximum production at the moment. Of course, in the near future, there will have to be a revision of the whole system of guaranteed prices and incentives, which certainly is unsatisfactory. I mean, why do we have to
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have this indirect subsidy? Why cannot a farmer get the right prices for all sorts of products and then plan his top dressing accordingly? That is what happens in a country like New Zealand, where there is a subsidy on the transport of fertilisers but not on the application itself. This subsidy, actually, is partly recoverable from the farmers in New Zealand; they have to pay it back.
Why do we have this considerable inequality of efficiency to a greater extent than in countries like New Zealand and Denmark? I think it is all a "hangover" of not being wanted, and it would be much easier to get rid of these subsidies as soon as this question of equality and inequality of efficiency is put right. Mr. Philips Price, in the Second Reading debate in another place, put very well the fact that we do at the moment need an indirect subsidy. He stated the case for that in this way (OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons; Vol. 496, Col. 289):
"The non-progressive farmer would much prefer to receive the help in his prices and not bother about his method of cultivation, but those of us who know something about the industry know that the planning and systematic use of fertilisers takes a lot of trouble but it does bring about, in the long run, much greater returns than direct subsidies. …"
We shall catch up in this respect of equality of excellence, as the Dominions, and these other primary producing countries, have done. I hope the noble Lord who is to reply will agree that it is far simpler to do the business through prices than through measures like this, which after all occupy a great deal of the time of Parliament and the county committees and so forth. We could then concentrate much better on this magnificent grand strategy that is needed. For instance, there is the point that a measure like this is fuel to the fire for people like Mr. Stanley Evans, who regards it as just another proof that the industry is not able to stand on its own feet. Of course it is able, but the introduction of measures like this—"another £20,000,000 to agriculture" or whatever it is—does afford fuel to the fire for people like that, who are enemies in our midst—really, rather curiously, William Cobbetts in reverse. That is another argument against this sort of measure which was well brought out in another place by Mr. George Brown.

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May I conclude by asking the noble Lord a question which I suppose it will be hard for him to answer fully at the moment? I hope it is not out of place to ask him whether measures to increase production are being conceived by the Government on what one might call a "for ever" basis or "until the world situation do change," as it were, because I am sure that the intention that it is "for ever," stated by the present Government and reiterated by future Governments, would do more good than would a hundred measures, however large. It is against this background of "for ever" that we can best see the nature of the various measures which must come about. Therefore, I welcome the Bill—with these reservations: that we must look always to the grand strategy and somehow see things in relation one to the other; we must not become obsessed by particular measures that ought not to come about if there were no need, as obviously there is not at the moment, for this indirect subsidy.
5.50 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, you have received this Bill so kindly that I think there is very little I need say. There are, however, two points which have been mentioned, which I think it would be right for me to answer. The first point which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, mentioned, and which was taken up by my noble friend Lord Radnor, was the question: why are we intending to put this subsidy on phosphatic fertilisers and not on nitrogenous fertilisers? In addition to the reasons which I gave in my opening remarks (I did not want to make them too long, and therefore I did not include any further reasons) such as, the price of phosphatic fertilisers increasing disproportionately to that of potash and nitrogen, there is the question of the supply of nitrogen.
The total production of nitrogen for agriculture in this country at the moment is approximately 250,000 tons, of which about 50,000 tons are exported, mainly to the Commonwealth and to the Colonies. It will be seen, therefore, that about 200,000 tons are actually used by the farmers of this country. The noble Earl, Lord Radnor, said that he felt that another 100,000 tons was necessary. I think he may have meant 100,000 tons of sulphate of ammonia, which of course
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would be only about 20,000 tons of nitrogen. As your Lordships will see, as the allocations have already been made for this year and we have agreed to export 50,000 tons, and as the greater part of the 200,000 tons which is used by the farmers of this country has been taken up, if we put a subsidy on nitrogenous fertilisers, inevitably we should find ourselves quite unable to fulfil the demand. I entirely agree with what my noble friend Lord Radnor has said, and if I may say so, I think it is another example of how useful your Lordships' House can be when we have speeches of such excellence and interest on a subject of this kind. We are at the moment looking into the question of raising the production of nitrogen, although it is rather a long-term business.
The other question which was raised by several noble Lords who have spoken—in particular, Lord Llewellin, Lord Brocket and Lord Listowel—was that of spraying fertilisers from the air. Of course, this is not a new idea. It has been done for some time experimentally in this country and, as the noble Earl said, in New Zealand. I know of three firms which are at the moment carrying out tests in spraying fertilisers from the air. They have done this in some parts of Wales, in Lancashire and on the marshes in East Anglia. Of course, the method has its drawbacks and difficulties. One of them was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Brocket—namely, that the spraying of lime from the air in any great density would be a very expensive business indeed, because the aeroplane can carry only a limited quantity, and has to keep coming down and taking off again. If there is any question of a shortage of fertilisers one also has to take into account whether or not the materials concerned would be better used elsewhere than on the top of mountains. There are all sorts of problems of that kind to be taken into account. My Department is going into this question of spraying from the air. We are very interested in it, and I assure the noble Lord that we will let him know from time to time how things are going on.
The noble Lord, Lord Wise, did not seem to like the word "relieving" in Clause 1 of the Bill. I do not know, but I imagine that the Parliamentary draftsman had something to do with the word "relieving." I think it would be

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fair to say that relief was certainly the feeling of the farmer when he learned about this Bill, because he was getting extremely worried about the cost of fertilisers. If the noble Lord feels very strongly about this we will remember what he says in any future measures of this kind. The last thing that Her Majesty's Government want to do is to encourage speeches of the type that the noble Lord mentioned earlier in his remarks. Both he and the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, seemed to think that this is rather a piecemeal way of doing a good thing. I agree with them wholeheartedly, that the right thing in agriculture is to produce a long-term policy, but I think the right place to do it is in the Annual Review which is taking place at this time. As your Lordships will realise, we cannot pay a fertiliser subsidy unless we have a Bill to enable us to make a scheme. After all, this is only one part of what is going to be a larger and grander scheme, about which I hope the noble Lord will hear in the not too distant future.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: When the noble Lord says "long-term policy" would he explain what he means? Is it literally for ever—or for any long number of years? I think that is of psychological importance.
LORD CARRINGTON: I wonder how much the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, would like to be committed for ever. Perhaps the noble Lord can wait until the Annual Review and the agricultural policy of Her Majesty's Government is published, and then if he is not satisfied with what we have done, he can make a speech in the debate which my noble friend Lord Llewellin is introducing some time next month. The noble Lord, Lord Wise, asked me one other question—namely, whether there was a sufficiency of phosphatic fertiliser. I can assure him categorically that we believe there will
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be enough for any demand which is likely to arise as a result of the scheme which will be introduced when the Bill becomes law. Another question which the noble Lord asked was whether we would look at the prices which manufacturers were charging for their fertilisers. He will know that the price of fertilisers is very strictly controlled by the Minister of Materials, but, of course, a substantial proportion of the phosphates which we use in this country are imported, and over that matter we have very little control.
Finally, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, I thought, blessed this Bill with faint praise. He seemed to think that the better thing would have been to put the money which we are spending on this subsidy on the end product. He seemed to feel that that course would have all sorts of advantages and, in particular, would confound Mr. Evans and his followers. But the trouble with that idea is, that if we gave the subsidy on the end product (which, on the face of it, I agree is the best thing to do), there would be no guarantee whatever that the farmer would put any fertiliser on his land at all. In the circumstances, and with the urgent need for greater production, Her Majesty's Government felt that the right thing to do in this case was to put the subsidy on fertilisers, thereby making sure that it was used for that purpose. I should like to thank all noble Lords for the kind way in which they have received this Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL
5.57 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at two minutes before six o'clock.